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Dominion General Discussion / Best phrasing? Differently named from all/any
« on: February 02, 2019, 01:40:12 pm »
In my document I have som phrases like this:

The Action you play has to be differently named from any cards you have in play.

But I'm thinking that this is wrong, and it should be "all" instead of "any". Which option is clearer, or is there another option that is better?

Rules Questions / Sauna and Innovation
« on: January 27, 2019, 02:26:23 pm »
Another question to bother Donald with (sorry). This is something that some of us have mused about before, but it never mattered until now. Champion, Merchant and Sauna say "when you play x". But when do you do it, before or after you resolve the played card?

The one situation I can think of is: Play Sauna; then play Silver, trashing a Catacombs, gaining a Black Market/Storyteller, playing it via Innovation. Now it matters if the Silver has been resolved or not.

We have some groups of...things:

1) Reactions like Moat, plus Urchin - "when you play x, first"
2) Champion, Merchant and Sauna - "when you play x"
3) Adventures tokens - "when you play x, first"

(Excluded here are cards that say "when you play this" (Noble Brigand, Philosopher's Stone, etc.) since that's part of resolving the play ability, not a triggered ability.)

Reactions/Urchin used to say just "when you play x", but still happened before the played card. Then Adventures came along with tokens that said "first", and later 2nd editions of Reactions/Urchin also said "first" to clarify the timing. Presumably Champion, Merchant and Sauna never got this wording because it didn't matter.

Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage and Citadel indicate that they happen after the played card. But Champion, Merchant and Sauna don't say either way.

So currently we have some things that say "first" and others that don't. This is the same situation as after Adventures came out, and of course Reactions/Urchin nevertheless happened before the played card. Going by this, it would seem that Sauna should too.

On the other hand, the intuitive interpretation for most players would probably be that the Silver produces $2 before you trash a card.

Rules Questions / Road Network and timing
« on: January 23, 2019, 07:48:30 pm »
If Alice gains a Haunted Castle, and Bob has bought Road Network, who chooses the order to resolve the two when-gain abilities? As far as I can understand from previous rulings, it's Alice who chooses.

The ruling I'm referring to is that optional abilities (currently this only includes Reactions) are resolved by the player making the choice. Other abilities are resolved by the player who triggered it. (Who resolves the abilities matters for determining the order to resolve them.)

This is why Reactions are resolved by the players who choose to use them, even when it's to an Attack played by another player.

So If Alice plays a Swamp Hag, and Bob buys a card, Bob triggered the Swamp Hag's when-buy ability, and since it's not optional for Alice, it's Bob who resolves it. This means that he gets to order it with other when-buy abilities.

Here it's Alice who triggers the abilites, by gaining the Haunted Castle. It's clear that Haunted Castle is resolved by Alice. The less clear one is Road Network. But since it's not an optional ability for Bob, it should be Alice who resolves it.

This is not really a rules question, so I wasn't sure if this was the right place, but I thought it might fit better here.

Which interactions do we know of where we are in a "trigger window" of resolving when-x abilities, and this makes another when-x ability trigger?

Classic example: Attack is played, react with Secret Chamber or Diplomat, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.


Kinda the same: Attack is played, react with Caravan Guard, draw another Reaction-to-Attack card.

Trash a Cultist/Rats/Overgrown Estate, we are in when-trash window: Discard Market Square, draw cards, drawing another (or same) Market Square.

Start-of-turn window: Play a card (via Ghost/Innovation/Piazza/Prince/Summon). If it's a Reserve card like Ratcatcher, can call it now. If it's Hireling, Prince, Fool gaining Lost in the Woods, or Treasurer gaining Key, the start-of-turn ability starts now.

Gain a Duplicate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it can now be called to gain a copy of itself. (Or gain Vassal, play it, it plays Duplicate, call Duplicate to gain another Vassal.)

Buy a card, we are in when-buy window: Gain another card (via Charm, Haggler etc) and play it via Innovation. If the played card is Goons, Haggler, Hoard*, Merchant Guild or Talisman*, it now triggers based on the buy.
*played via Black Market or Storyteller.

Inherit Groundskeeper. Gain an Inherited Estate, we are in when-gain window. Play it via Innovation, it now triggers based on the gain. (Or Inherit Vassal, gain & play it, it plays Groundskeeper.)

Can anybody think of other interactions?

Dominion General Discussion / Which cards let you choose to gain nothing?
« on: January 20, 2019, 09:31:57 pm »
Just asking for some help identifying cards. Which cards let you choose to gain a card that you can't gain?

I'm not talking about Torturer when there are no Curses left. I mean cards that give you a choice of cards.

So far I have identified:

Smugglers - you can choose a card your opponent gained even though it's not available to gain.
Pilgrimage - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.
Changeling - you can choose a card in play even though it's not available to gain.

Are there any others?

Rules Questions / Cards entering and leaving play (Innovation)
« on: January 16, 2019, 01:08:06 pm »
Sorry, another complicated question about triggering and resolving. At least it doesn't involve Band of Misfits or Inheritance.

I'm wondering if I'm understanding this correctly.

1) I have Innovation and Capitalism. With Haggler in play, buy Mint. When-buys for Haggler and Mint trigger.
Haggler: Gain&play Merchant Guild (cost-reduced).
When-buy for Merchant Guild triggers (for buying Mint).
Mint: Trash Treasures, including Merchant Guild.
Merchant Guild: +1 Coffers.
(The Merchant Guild was not in play originally, and not in play when I resolve it, but it triggered.)

2) I have Innovation. With Haggler in play, buy Lab. When-buy for Haggler triggers.
Haggler: Gain&play Procession, playing Merchant Guild from hand (trashing the Merchant Guild).
When-buy for Merchant Guild doesn't trigger (for buying Mint), since it's not in play anymore.

The difference is that in (2), the Merchant Guild is not in play after we have resolved a when-play ability and we're checking for more.

I'm not sure if this is how it's intended to work, but this is my assumption.

Rules Questions / Groundskeeper, Inheritance and Innovation
« on: January 11, 2019, 03:27:07 pm »
I have Inherited Groundskeeper, and I have bought Innovation.
I gain an Estate, playing it via Innovation on when-gain. The Estate ("Groundskeeper") is now in play, and I'm still resolving when-gains for gaining the Estate. Does the Groundskeeper when-gain trigger now, giving me 1 VP token? If it said, "when you gain a Victory card, if this is in play," there would be no question that it's "yes". But as it is I'm not sure. ...But I guess it should still work?

Rules Questions / Hands of non-Fleet players
« on: January 09, 2019, 09:33:28 pm »
During the Fleet turn, do the non-Fleet players keep the hands they drew in their last Clean-up? This matter for Moating etc.

Rules Questions / Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs
« on: January 07, 2019, 01:18:09 pm »
So if you Procession a Band of Misfits-as-Catacombs (where Catacombs has the -$2 token on it), what happens?

I just thought of this question, and saw that it was posed before, but not answered. It's clear that Procession gains a $6 cost card, but what about Catacombs? Catacombs costs $3, but even though it's Catacomb's when-trash ability being resolved, the card is currently a Band of Misfits costing $5, so I assume it gains a card that's cheaper than $5.

Rules Questions / Band of Misfits and Innovation interactions
« on: January 07, 2019, 12:07:49 am »
I have bought Innovation. With Talisman in play I buy (cost-reduced) BoM. On when-buy I gain a BoM, choosing to immediately play it as a Village. Now I'm supposed to gain the top card from the pile I bought from the BoM that is on top of the pile. So this should be a BoM. But in Dominion online this is a Village. So I end up gaining a BoM and a Village, instead of two BoMs. Am I right that this is wrong?

Rules Questions / Basilica (spend Coffers tokens at any time)
« on: January 05, 2019, 11:47:59 pm »
So you can spend Coffers tokens at any time in your Buy phase (before you buy anything). This can matter for Black Market, Storyteller (if you play them in your Buy phase) and Fortune.

It seems this can also matter for Basilica. Let's say you buy a card, leaving you with $1, triggering Basilica and Haggler. You resolve Haggler first, gaining a card that changes things in a way you couldn't know (like a Blessed Village or a Knight). Now you decide to spend a Coffers token before resolving Basilica. Valid?

Rules Questions / Gaining Inherited Estate and "when you gain an Action"
« on: January 04, 2019, 04:42:08 pm »
If I workshop an Inherited Estate, does this trigger Defiled Shrine, Academy and Innovation? I assume so, I just want to have it confirmed. Thanks.

Dominion General Discussion / New mechanics in Renaissance
« on: December 28, 2018, 05:08:42 pm »
What are the actual new mechanics that we haven't seen before Renaissance? Artifacts are States with a new name, so are not included.
  • Villagers
  • Projects
  • Playing an Action card in the Buy phase (Scepter, Capitalism, Innovation)
  • Playing a non-Treasure card in the Buy phase (Scepter, Innovation, and Capitalism indirectly)
  • Gaining a card without triggering its when-gain ability (Experiment)
  • Checking number of tokens on Coffers mat (Swashbuckler)
  • Checking cards that would be discarded this turn (Improve)
  • Trigger on when-reveal (Patron)
  • Trigger on when-would-shuffle (Star Chart)
  • Checking which ability trashed a card (Sewers)
  • Checking if cards bought in Buy phase (Exploration)
  • New, specific use of Coin token (Sinister Plot)
  • Checking card texts (Capitalism, Patron)
Not really? - Changing types of certain cards (Capitalism) - Inheritance also does this, although based on other criteria...

  • Changing types of cards that are not in your deck (Capitalism)
  • Taking turns after the end of the game (Fleet)

Dominion General Discussion / Patron and "reveal"
« on: December 20, 2018, 05:58:16 pm »
I found a discussion about this in the fan cards forum (diverting from the original thread topic). But since it has nothing to do with fan cards, I decided to reply in a new thread.

The card doesn't actually even need "using the word 'reveal.'"  Early versions didn't have it -- it was just added for clarity.

I think the issue is that people say and think things like "the top card of your discard pile is always revealed". Heck, it might even say that in the rulebook somewhere.

GendoIkari is right. The Dominion rulebook (2nd ed.) says that you reveal the top card of your discard pile:
"If you discard multiple cards at once, you do not need to reveal them all, just the one you put on top."

So Patron absolutely needs to clarify what it means that it gets revealed.

Actually, reading Patron literally might make you think that Villain causes you to reveal Patron if you discard it. Villain does use the word "reveal", and does cause you to discard the Patron - and thereby revealing it, following the rulebook as quoted above.

Good thing that the Patron explanation in the Renaissance rulebook uses Villain as an example.

Variants and Fan Cards / Card ideas from Jeebus
« on: November 30, 2018, 06:58:18 pm »
I thought of some card ideas, and here they are. To make them nicer to look at, I found some images and used Violet CLM's generator (thanks!).
The general idea was to think of more interesting stuff to do with just the base mechanics, so just given the base game rulebook.

I'd appreciate any feedback. If some of them are too similar to a fan card already created, I guess someone will tell me. None of these are tested!

Edit: Changed several of the cards. See text below for original versions.


SHAFT v1 - $3, Action
+4 Cards
Discard 1 card for each card drawn.

SHAFT v2 - $3, Action
Draw 4 cards.
If you did, discard 4 cards.

PANNIERS v1- $2, Action - Reaction
+1 Card
When another player plays an Attack, you may play this from your hand, to return 1 card from your hand to the Supply.

PANNIERS v2: added to top: +$1

WEAVER v1 - $5, Action
+3 Cards, +$3
Each other player draws 3 cards and discards 3 cards.

WEAVER v2: increased price to $6

LAW - $4, Action
Trash a card from your hand. If it costs $3 or more, +3 Cards. If it costs $4 or more, +1 Action.

MIDWAY - $3, Action
Say a type. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, and put them back in any order. For each card that has the said type, choose one: +1 Action; or +1 Card.

PRIVATEER v1 - $6, Treasure - Attack
+$1, +1 Buy
When you play this, choose one: Discard your hand and +4 Cards; or gain a Silver to your hand. Each other player does the same.

PRIVATEER v2 - $7, Treasure - Attack
+$1, +1 Buy
When you play this, discard your hand and +4 Cards, and each other player with 5 or more cards in hand does the same.

ALDERMAN v1 - $5, Action
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck, then discard them. For each different type on the revealed cards, you may play an Action card from your hand that has that type.

ALDERMAN v2: added to top: +1 Action
ALDERMAN v3: also added to top: +1 Card

PROWLER - $4, Action - Reaction
+1 Buy
Reveal cards from your deck until revealing a Treasure costing $1 or more. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
When you gain a Treasure, you may discard this from your hand, to set the Treasure aside. If you did set it aside, play it.

This is a summary of how it works with Coffers and Debt. If I'm mistaken or missing something, I'd appreciate feedback.

B1 = the first part of the Buy phase (play Treasures; spend Coffers tokens at any time)
B2 = the second part of the Buy phase (buy things; pay off debt before or after each buy EDIT: at any time)

Capitalism or Scepter:
Play Black Market in B1 - you can spend Coffers tokens in the middle. You can't pay off debt.
Play Storyteller in B1 - you can spend Coffers tokens in the middle. You can't pay off debt.

Buy and play Black Market in B2 - you can't spend Coffers tokens (you would have to do it in B1). You can't pay off debt in the middle, only before you buy the BM or after you've completely resolved the BM. EDIT: You can pay off debt in the middle.
Buy and play Storyteller in B2 - you can't spend Coffers tokens (you would have to do it in B1). You can't can pay off debt, as above.

Capitalism pluss Innovation:
Buy and play Black Market/Storyteller/Crown and as a result play Black Market (being a Treasure) in B2 - as above, you can't spend Coffers tokens or pay off debt. but you can pay off debt.
Buy and play Black Market/Storyteller/Crown and as a result play Storyteller (being a Treasure) in B2 - as above, you can't spend Coffers tokens or pay off debt. but you can pay off debt.

Rules Questions / Not enough cards with Border Guard
« on: November 13, 2018, 01:07:05 pm »
I assume that if you don't have enough cards to reveal 2 (or 3 with Lantern), then you can't take Lantern or Horn?

Rules Questions / Lose track rule in published rulebooks
« on: November 12, 2018, 07:44:48 pm »
I've noticed that Dark Ages is still the only rulebook that mentions the lose track rule. The 2nd edition Dominion rulebook has no mention of it either. Despite this, several cards are being released that rely on the rule to function, for instance Cargo Ship and Innovation. It seems that players without Dark Ages will have no way of knowing how several of these interactions work without looking online. Any thought on this?

Rules Questions / Fleet extra turns
« on: November 05, 2018, 12:51:40 pm »
1) I gather from the FAQ that these count as "extra turns"? The card itself says "extra round of turns". This matters for tie breaking.

2) If I play Outpost and end the game, I normally won't get the Outpost turn. But what if I have Fleet? What if I don't have Fleet but someone else does? The rules don't say either way, but since they don't mention it, it kind of implies that I don't get the Outpost turn. On the other hand, the explanation for why Outpost doesn't give you a turn after the last Fleet turn, says that Outpost doesn't keep the game going after it ends. Well, Fleet does keep the game going, so that would imply that an Outpost played before the game ends would happen (whether I have the Fleet or someone else does).

Rules Questions / What does Enchantress and Royal Carriage do?
« on: September 28, 2018, 02:38:57 pm »
We know that Enchantress doesn't change the actual play ability on the Enchanted card.

We know that Royal Carriage/Ghost/Citadel can replay the Enchanted card for its play ability.

But how can Royal Carriage do that?

I thought that Enchantress makes you get +1 Card and +1 Action instead of resolving the play ability of the Enchanted card. I also thought that Royal Carriage triggers after you resolve the play ability of an Action card. But the Enchanted action card's play ability was never resolved.

I guess my understanding of either Enchantress or Royal Carriage is wrong.

Enchantress: Could it be that the play ability is changed after all, not on the card, but for this play of the card? So that somehow, when you do "+1 Card and +1 Action", that counts as having resolved the card's play ability? I struggle to see how that can be correct.

Royal Carriage: Maybe the timing is not "after you resolve the play ability", but "after you finish playing", just like the card says. The Enchanted card was played, after all. So you play an Action card, then any Reactions etc. trigger, then you resolve the play ability (or not, if it's Enchanted), then you're finished playing it. Now Royal Carriage triggers. This seems more likely. The rulebook actually says that it's "after resolving a played Action card", but of course this just covers the normal cases.

Game Reports / One of the greatest 2 player games ever
« on: April 23, 2018, 06:11:09 pm »
Yesterday I had one of the greatest 2 player games I've had. Unfortunately it's one of those blasted "Internal Error" games, so I can't reload it.

I remember all the cards except one:
Tunnel, Bard, Vineyard, Golem, City Quarter, Catapult, Secret Passage, Cursed Village, Apprentice
Battlefield, Pilgrimage

There were several things that made it great:
* Two completely different strategies.
* Both strats influenced the other: He opened Tunnels as a response to my Catapult, I couldn't touch the Provinces because of his continuing lead.
* Both strats had support but also challenges from the kingdom. (Tunnel great with Battlefield, but no voluntary discarding, only from opponent's Catapult. Vineyard great with Pilgrimage, but no +buy except through Bard.)
* Ending the game by buying a Curse.
* The only time I've played where someone used a Fate card to get specific Boons often.
* Final score was 51 to 50 VP. He started with a big lead, which got bigger, then I gradually gained on him, winning with 1 VP.

His strat was to buy all the Tunnels he could straight away! He got all 12 VP from Battlefield, plus I think all the Tunnels - 16 VP. Then he pretty much always had at least one Tunnel to discard to my Catapulting, giving him something like 15 Golds after a while. He also got the "discard 3 for a Gold" Boon from Bard, with 2 Tunnels in hand, giving him 3 Golds at once. With all the Tunnels and the Curses from me, his deck was still not great, but he managed to buy, I guess, 5 Provinces by the time the game ended. He had a Bard and also a few Cursed Villages which sometimes let him draw up after my discard-attack.

I went for Vineyards, gaining Action cards through Pilgrimage, and trashing with Catapult and Apprentice. City Quarter was of course my engine. After a while I was unnecessarily making around $8 to $10 each turn (but of course could absolutely not buy a Province), and the problem is that if you buy Pilgrimage, you can't buy Vineyard. Therefore I was cycling through 4 Bards each turn, getting +1 Buy three or four times in the game, and also picking up 4 Wisps in the end. I also had to slow him down through Cursing, so I had to gain cards for Catapult, I gained Silver and even Gold from Boons just to trash them, but I also had to trash some of the Catapults I was gaining.

He denied me the last Vineyard, so then I Catapulted the Potion, giving him the 9th Curse. I was up to 7 VP per Vineyard and 52 VP, and bought the last Curse.

I don't think a big money approach could have won here against me, because I would discard-attack and curse you pretty good. Big money against him I'm not so sure about. You would have to refrain from discard-attacking and let him drown in his Tunnels, but it's still a 28 VP initial lead to overcome, and you're not really trashing down efficiently to get to your Silvers and Golds.

Dominion General Discussion / How good is Fishing Village really?
« on: December 07, 2017, 11:38:19 am »
I've often heard how FV is one of the best villages, if not the best. And sure, it nets you an Action twice, while other villages only do it once. And it's great for consistency to start your turn with 2 Actions. So when you don't draw your deck, it's a great village.

But once you draw your deck, isn't it just worse than plain Village? Since you can only play it every other turn, it actually nets you an Action only once at this point, same as Village. And it doesn't draw, so you need more draw to keep drawing your deck than you would with Villages. It gives you +$1, so in essence (compared to Village) you're sacrificing a card for a draw, which is like a Copper. So it's like having a Village and a Copper in your deck, right? You would rather trash that Copper. The advantage is that you still start your turns with +Actions, so you will pretty much never stall.

My conclusion is that FV is a great village while building, but if you're building towards drawing your deck, after a couple of FVs you pretty much always want other villages instead. I mean, if they're available. (Yes I just played a game IRL with both FV and Village.)

Have I made any mistakes in my reasoning here?

Dominion General Discussion / Empires cards I still don't get
« on: November 29, 2017, 04:13:09 pm »
There are many cards in Empires I play less than optimally, but there are a few I don't get at all. ...Actually, Annex is the only real puzzler.

I have seen someone buy Annex exactly once. It was end game and he had $7. In that situation, if you would buy the Duchy anyway, I get it - given that you have good cards in your discard pile of course. And you really have to think it helps you to get those cards into your deck, because you're potentially making your next turn $7 instead of $8, which could lose you the game. If you have less than $7, you're hurting your next turn even more. So the situation where you should buy Annex seems very rare. Is there something I'm not seeing, some other use for it?

Triumph also seems very limited. I have seen Triumph used like two times, but then it was to very good effect. Also, that was in two different games. So Triumph was good overall in those games, not just once in a game like Annex.

The other one is Ritual. I get the concept here I think. Trash high cost cards, get VP, then trash the Curses later. The other more rare case would be in the endgame, you buy it if you have exactly $7 to trash a gold for 6 VP and a Curse, or if you have $4 and some other expensive card. But I have still not experienced anybody ever buying it I think. (Unlike Defiled Shrine, you have to trash a good card, and it costs $4 instead of $0.)

Rules Questions / Timing of "+" tokens and Urchin/Reactions
« on: November 22, 2017, 02:02:14 pm »
Hoping Donald answers this. The previous ruling was that "+" tokens are resolved before Urchin or Reactions, because the tokens dictate that they go "first". The ruling is not in any rulebook, it was just based on Events like Pathfinding saying "first".

Now in the new editions, all Reactions and Urchin also say "first". Is the ruling still the same, or can you now choose to gain Mercenary before drawing from your +1 Card token?

Rules Questions / Trashing several cards with Monastery
« on: November 16, 2017, 12:47:51 pm »
When a card tells you to trash a number of cards, they are all trashed at once. But Monastery says "for each". Is it several trashing effects or just one?

For instance, if I gained 2 cards, can I trash an Overgrown Estate, draw a Curse, and then trash that Curse?

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