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Topics - Toskk

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1
Simulation / Simulator able to do small number of turns?
« on: October 28, 2013, 01:46:08 pm »
I was hoping someone may know of an existing simulator that can accomplish this.. but I'm wanting to simulate (only) the first four turns of a game, and then determine the percentage distribution of all possible decks.

For example, going Big Money, after four turns what is the percentage breakdown of four silver buys vs. a gold in there? Repeat for various 4/3 and 5/2 openers. I'm really interested in the buying power of the deck after four turns, if that helps (i.e. how many gold and/or silver does the deck contain).

Is there an existing simulator that can handle something like this? :)

2
Ok, this question is for anyone better at math than I.. what I'm hoping to find is a formula that can approximate the probability of, for example, Moneylender pairing up with a Copper (but it could be any card that cares about another specific card) when you also have something like a Laboratory in your deck.

Using a whole number value for hand size, calculating the odds of the event above is trivial.. and it's also trivial to calculate your average hand size based on the composition of your entire deck (e.g. including all Laboratories you have).. but does anyone happen to have a good method for approximating both at once?

For example, with a deck of 13 cards including one Laboratory, you will go through your deck in 2.4 turns, or have an average hand size of 5.4167 cards. But with 5.4167 cards in any given hand, how would you go about approximating the odds of having both Moneylender and at least one Copper in said hand? Note: yes, in this particular case, the odds are probably 100% (unless you happen to have a Silver in those 13 cards too, in which case you could have Moneylender + EEES).. I'm wanting a formula that can compute this, rather than the specific answer for this case. ;)

Thanks in advance to anyone who can suggest a reasonable method for averaging this. For reference, I'm working on a Dominion model (not Simulator) (I posted about it a while back) again. ;)

3
Dominion General Discussion / Making Bridge/Native Village better?
« on: December 19, 2011, 09:43:49 pm »
Yes, the combo is already very fast on its own.. averaging all 8 Provinces in just over 14 turns (best case 13, worst-case 17) as long as you make sure not to accidentally NV away your ability to keep purchasing Bridges.. but does anything make the combo faster? I've tried the usual support cards that I can think of.. Talisman, Workshop, etc.. but none of them appear to actually help at all. Talisman is great while it stays in your deck, although it can sometimes lead to too many Native Villages too quickly if you're not careful.. but once it gets to the Native Village mat, it just makes me sad it wasn't another Bridge. Is Bridge/NV "as good as it gets", or can it be improved on with another support card? :)

4
Dominion General Discussion / Absolute Fastest Combo to 8 Provinces?
« on: December 13, 2011, 10:34:48 pm »
Ok.. assuming all the buys are possible (i.e. the opponent isn't buying Provinces too), the perfect Kingdom, and perfect shuffle luck, what's the very fastest combo for buying all 8 Provinces? Has anyone found anything faster than Tactician/Secret Chamber/Crossroads?

Assuming perfect shuffle luck (and of course a 5/2 split), the perfect Tactician/Secret Chamber/Crossroads deck appears to be able to generate 64 points in 12 turns, buying out all 8 Provinces along with 4 Duchies and an extra Estate:

T1 & T2 - Buy Tactician & Secret Chamber
T3 - Draw & play Tactician (other cards don't matter, as we'll reshuffle for the full T4 draw)
T4 - With 10 cards in hand and only 11 cards in the deck, we're guaranteed either 7 copper or at least 6 copper + the Secret Chamber and 2 Estates (or 9 total coins) - Buy Tactician & Crossroads
T5 - Draw & play Tactician (other cards don't matter, as we'll reshuffle for the full T6 draw)
T6 - Draw Tactician & Secret Chamber (Drawing/Playing Crossroads is unnecessary) - Play secret Chamber & Discard at least 7 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy Duchy & Crossroads
T7 - Draw Crossroads & at least 3 green cards - Play Crossroads to draw the rest of the deck - Play secret Chamber & discard at least 10 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy Province & Estate
T8 - Draw Crossroads & at least enough green cards to draw the second Crossroads - play it to draw the rest of the deck - Play secret chamber & discard at least 13 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy Province & Duchy
T9 - Draw Crossroads & at least enough green cards to draw the second Crossroads - play it to draw the rest of the deck - Play secret chamber & discard at least 13 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy Province & Duchy
T10 - Draw Crossroads & at least enough green cards to draw the second Crossroads - play it to draw the rest of the deck - Play secret chamber & discard at least 16 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy 2 Provinces
T11 - Draw Crossroads & at least enough green cards to draw the second Crossroads - play it to draw the rest of the deck - Play secret chamber & discard at least 16 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy 2 Provinces
T12 - Draw Crossroads & at least enough green cards to draw the second Crossroads - play it to draw most of the rest of the deck - Play secret chamber & discard at least 13 cards, then play Tactician & discard 1 card - Buy Province & Duchy

Although the 12 turn finish requires a heck of a lot of luck, getting a 13 turn finish with at least 57 points by purchasing fewer Duchies and adding at least 1 more Crossroads isn't too unlikely.. for example:

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201112/13/game-20111213-181118-5ff6a675.html

Note: the above is a solitaire game, and ignores all other cards (for example attacks, which could really mess up the combo).

So, can anyone come up with a faster combo to grab all 8 Provinces? :)

5
Simulation / Dominion Deck Calculator
« on: November 07, 2011, 05:42:23 pm »
Hello everyone,

Well, coming from a background in video game theorycrafting, I was surprised to find that while there are several excellent Dominion simulators, there aren't any Dominion models.. calculators that quickly evaluate the strength of Dominion cards relative to each other and to the deck without simulation. So, I've been endeavoring to create one, as usual using javascript. I've finally finished a prototype version of the calculator, and would love some feedback and debugging on it. :) The interface is currently very simplistic, and includes only a very limited selection of Dominion cards.. this is still a work in progress..

In brief, the calculator does the following:

1). It evaluates the purchasing power of the averaged hand (and card) in your deck.
2). Using the above as a baseline, it evaluates the relative purchasing power value of adding specific cards to the deck.

Note: To reset your deck to turn 1, simply refresh the page.

At a basic level, the calculator is quite simple. For example, it is pretty trivial to calculate the value of something like Smithy if you haven't purchased anything for your deck yet (or have purchased only Treasure).. with a brand new deck, the purchasing power of a Smithy would be 0.7 (7 Coppers in 10 total cards) * 3 draws = 2.1.. or very slightly better than if the Smithy were instead a Silver. This all gets more complicated as you add more action cards to the deck, however, particularly terminal actions. Thanks to some formulas appropriated from AdamH's thread over in the Articles forum, however, the calculator is for the most part able to correctly compensate for chaining actions and terminal collisions, altering the relative value of each card based on the probability of these events occurring.

Strengths of the Calculator

Unlike a Simulator, the calculator is theoretically able to evaluate the relative value of a huge number of cards/strategies at any point in the development of the deck, and executes instantly. All cards are constantly ranked by their relative purchasing power value, and re-updated with every purchase or trash.

Limitations of the Calculator

I don't think I need to tell anyone that there are lots of limitations to modeling Dominion.. not the least of which being that in some cases the underlying mathematics and probabilities are simply too complex to model (at least for me). :P Some mechanics are simply not going to be 100% accurate, and some cards may not ever be possible to model properly. So please take any result from the Calculator with a 'grain of salt'. While I am fairly confident that for the most part the relative values are accurate, in many cases the results are not very intuitive or easy to utilize. Beyond this, though, there are several very important limitations to the Calculator:

1). The relative values of each card are entirely based on the purchasing power of the deck/hand/card.. i.e. 'Big Money'. In short, this Calculator only optimizes for treasure-based strategies. It also will not ever recommend purchasing Victory cards. By definition, these are likely to hurt the purchasing power of the deck (with the rare exceptions of possibly Nobles, Harem, etc.). Theoretically, the Calculator *could* suggest when it is optimal to start 'going green'.. for example, from simulation of the Big Money strategy, it is typically optimal to start purchasing Provinces once your deck reaches ~18 total treasure, or a per-hand purchase power of ~6 and per-card purchase power of ~1.2.

2). The Calculator isn't actually playing your deck, and doesn't understand the concept of a deck, hand, and discard pile. In short, it is evaluating the purchasing power of your entire deck as a single object, rather than as a discrete number of hands. While this is not exactly 'incorrect', the implications of this method are not entirely intuitive. For example, from simulation of the Big Money + Smithy strategy, it appears optimal to try to purchase a second Smithy sometime just after turn 7 or so. The Calculator, by contrast, will typically suggest that the relative value of a second Smithy surpasses the relative value of Silver at somewhere around turn 13. These results are not actually at odds with each-other. The Calculator isn't taking into account how many turns it might be between when the second Smithy is purchased and when it might actually first be played. So while it might not be optimal to purchase a Smithy at turn 7, based on your current deck at turn 7, by the time it comes around to actually playing that Smithy your deck might be 2-3 Silver heavier, and at that point it *might* be optimal to have a Smithy in the deck. To quickly summarize the issue.. the Calculator cannot anticipate your future (in the turns after the current one) purchases, nor does it know just how soon any purchased card is going to be played. So best use of the Calculator often requires adding several cards to the deck, to evaluate the future purchasing power of the deck several turns out, based on a prediction of what your next few draws might be.. not the easiest thing in the world to do.

3). There are several mechanics that the Calculator currently does not support at all, including the effect of +buys, +2 actions, and Attack cards. While I believe that I can eventually figure out the probabilities for modeling cards like Vault, Warehouse, Salvager, etc.. I'm currently not positive about +2 action cards.. the probabilities involved with determining when they might allow for +card/+action chains are very complex. :( I could also possibly give an estimate for the value of Attack cards, however it would only be directly applicable to a specific opponent deck (I could probably use either a mirror deck or a Big Money deck as the opponent). I also am not positive that Duration cards are currently being modeled 100% correctly..

4). As is probably obvious given the above limitations, the Calculator is not an AI that will tell you how to win at Dominion.. it still requires a fair amount of knowledge, prediction, and decision-making to utilize (and even then Dominion is subject to a lot of random variation). Theoretically, it might be possible to use it to create an actual Dominion AI, however that would require two additional components: A). an actual understanding of deck, hand, and discard pile, and B). a method of applying the same deck evaluation calculations out into the future, examining the potential impact on the deck at some future point based on all possible purchases up to that point.

Whew.. sorry for the wall of text.. anyway, I am very interested in feedback on the Calculator. :) I'm definitely going to continue developing it, and would very much appreciate any testing or troubleshooting anyone would be willing to do. If there's enough interest in it, I'll also eventually find a host for the program somewhere.

Thanks,

Toskk

6
Simulation / Formulation Question
« on: November 04, 2011, 12:16:59 pm »
I know this section of the forum is more for Sims than formulas.. but I was really hoping that someone out there may have already created something for this..

I'm looking for a formula that will accept deck size and number of terminal actions, and output the probability of any given terminal colliding with another. Has anyone attempted such a thing? For example I've seen percentages quoted for the chances of two terminals colliding during turns 3-5.. but I've never seen the formula used to calculate that. I can definitely accept that some error is going to be necessary, as the reshuffle will technically add more cards to the 'deck' than were there originally. Thanks to anyone who can point me in the right direction. ;)

7
Dominion General Discussion / Salvager CCCS Decision?
« on: October 25, 2011, 11:52:34 am »
During some recent solitaire games, this situation came up twice, and each time I wasn't really happy with it.. so, any advice? Here's the scenario:

Turn 6 draw - Salvager, 3x Copper, Silver

No Gold has been purchased so far. One each of Labs and Caravans have already been purchased.

Purchase options: Laboratory, Caravan, Gold

At this point in the game, is it best to not play Salvager and grab another Laboratory, play Salvager to trash a copper and grab another Caravan, or play Salvager and trash the Silver to grab the first Gold?

8
Edit: The newest version is v1.1.4, and includes a 'always include a card giving +2 or more cards' option, and an text card list formatted for Isotropic. The card picker is now hosted online here:

http://inprogressgaming.com/dominion-card-picker/

I apologize in advance for a slight thread derail.. however my inspiration for this program came out of my distaste for veto (in physical multiplayer games, in particular). My experience has been that any veto system, beyond obviously leading to metagaming as discussed here, too often still doesn't produce interesting or balanced games. Just as an example, from reading through this thread, I didn't see anyone suggesting that they veto based on game balance (i.e. if there are glaring gaps in the cost or types of cards in the game, veto'ing to acquire cards addressing those gaps), or based on attempting to increase (rather than decrease, what most metagaming players typically do with vetos) the number of possible game strategies.

So, I've been endeavoring to create a (javascript) card picker that could replace traditional 'veto' methods of card picking. Yes, it has a field for 'pre-vetos'.. if you really don't like a card, you can exclude it from the selection, without throwing in the extra metagaming component of veto'ing it after cards have been selected. The program also includes ~60 fields and checkboxes to try to (pseodorandomly) produce games that are balanced, flow well, and promote multiple strategies, without resorting to veto. Don't like some options? Turn them off. Everything is configurable, and all settings save via a cookie so the next time you use the program your previous settings will be saved.

I've attached the .html file if anyone would like to try it. Unlike other card picker programs I've seen, it uses only javascript. The entire card database is stored internally, and the card images are simply links to dierstraits.com. If there is enough interest in the picker, I'll create a new thread about it.. I am also looking for online hosting for it. ;) Quick note for anyone trying it: error and range checking is not in this version.. so it's quite easy to accidentally place restrictions on the selected card set that will never complete (e.g. selecting only Dominion and Intrigue cards, but keeping the 4-max limit on each :P). So be a little careful of locking up your browser.

I'd love feedback on the program.. and sorry once again for injecting into a thread on veto strategy. ;)

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