1
General Discussion / Google Code Jam
« on: April 12, 2013, 08:10:09 pm »
Just started today. Anybody here registered for it?
Dominion Strategy Forum
- May 19, 2013, 11:09:02 am
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2
Simulation / Challenge the Simulator (work in progress)
« on: March 17, 2013, 06:12:23 am »
Geronimoo's simulator is open sourced, so I decided to take a look at it. There was a basic skeleton of an interface that would let a human play against a bot. Below is that interface, after I fleshed out a few of the details.
http://imgur.com/xUC4bKU
It's not done, but in its current state you can start a game against a specified bot. Decisions on what to play and what to buy are controlled by the player, but the simulator still handles discarding, topdecking, etc. My intention is to finish this sometime before Geronimoo releases a version with Dark Ages. That way I don't have to worry about how to handle those cards
.
http://imgur.com/xUC4bKU
It's not done, but in its current state you can start a game against a specified bot. Decisions on what to play and what to buy are controlled by the player, but the simulator still handles discarding, topdecking, etc. My intention is to finish this sometime before Geronimoo releases a version with Dark Ages. That way I don't have to worry about how to handle those cards
.
3
Dominion Isotropic / And it's down
« on: March 15, 2013, 08:12:33 pm »
(I hope someone saved that parody of Still Alive dougz did.)
4
Council Room Feedback / Council Room not updating?
« on: March 11, 2013, 04:30:24 am »
I wanted to look at some of my past games, and noticed my profile claimed I was level 27 (I'm 32 now).
For the profiles I've checked, the most recent games logged are from March 4th.
For the profiles I've checked, the most recent games logged are from March 4th.
5
Game Reports / Some fun games with unconvential cards
« on: March 08, 2013, 01:28:50 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/07/game-20130307-220756-4bfdf64a.html
I went Fishing Village - Apothecary -(optional Noble Brigands if opponent tries to go big money). And a random Counting House thrown in because, hey, why not? I deliberately try to not buy any Silver or Gold, which makes any opposing Noble Brigands useless. In fact, they help because they can sometimes give me Copper for free. Everything goes exactly the way I want it, and Counting House gives me just enough to end it before the deck stalls on green.
--
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/07/game-20130307-221755-5693aa97.html
Familiar game. I open Remake/Warehouse to try to outrace the Cursing early on, then my Remake misses reshuffle and opponent gets $2P. Anyway, that's not important. What's neat is turn 10. I have $5P, but instead of buying familiar, I play Gold + Silver and buy Mandarin, getting rewarded with T11 Platinum. My Plat advantage snowballs, and although it's close because I skipped Hoard, I manage to get a win.
I went Fishing Village - Apothecary -(optional Noble Brigands if opponent tries to go big money). And a random Counting House thrown in because, hey, why not? I deliberately try to not buy any Silver or Gold, which makes any opposing Noble Brigands useless. In fact, they help because they can sometimes give me Copper for free. Everything goes exactly the way I want it, and Counting House gives me just enough to end it before the deck stalls on green.
--
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/07/game-20130307-221755-5693aa97.html
Familiar game. I open Remake/Warehouse to try to outrace the Cursing early on, then my Remake misses reshuffle and opponent gets $2P. Anyway, that's not important. What's neat is turn 10. I have $5P, but instead of buying familiar, I play Gold + Silver and buy Mandarin, getting rewarded with T11 Platinum. My Plat advantage snowballs, and although it's close because I skipped Hoard, I manage to get a win.
6
Game Reports / Nooooo, black market :(
« on: December 25, 2012, 12:09:36 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/24/game-20121224-204843-8372abfa.html
There's:
Apothecary
Herbalist (to put back Potions and pick up Copper)
Cartographer (to discard green)
Spy (to discard green)
Haven (just for cycling)
Vineyard (as an alternative to Duchy late-game)
It's a perfect Apothecary board, so I go for it. Opponent goes for Black Market-BM, roughly.
First time, gets Bishop, and I don't want to trash my Coppers so it's especially good.
Second time, gets Witch, which adds more junk to a deck that is very sensitive to greening.
Admittedly, I played the engine quite badly, and there were some other good cards in the Black Market deck too (Jack and King's Court are what I remember). I'm just so annoyed that the one time I think I can get Apothecary to actually work for me, it falls apart because of Black Market.
There's:
Apothecary
Herbalist (to put back Potions and pick up Copper)
Cartographer (to discard green)
Spy (to discard green)
Haven (just for cycling)
Vineyard (as an alternative to Duchy late-game)
It's a perfect Apothecary board, so I go for it. Opponent goes for Black Market-BM, roughly.
First time, gets Bishop, and I don't want to trash my Coppers so it's especially good.
Second time, gets Witch, which adds more junk to a deck that is very sensitive to greening.
Admittedly, I played the engine quite badly, and there were some other good cards in the Black Market deck too (Jack and King's Court are what I remember). I'm just so annoyed that the one time I think I can get Apothecary to actually work for me, it falls apart because of Black Market.
7
Game Reports / Alchemist + Mine is pretty nice
« on: December 23, 2012, 08:25:31 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/23/game-20121223-170921-d13347dc.html
I am really proud of this game, mostly for this play.
Titandrake plays a Mine.
... trashing a Gold.
... gaining a Potion in hand.
Titandrake plays a Potion, 3 Coppers, and a Gold.
Titandrake plays a Horn of Plenty.
... gaining a Horn of Plenty.
Titandrake buys an Alchemist.
Titandrake returns an Alchemist to the top of the deck.
Titandrake returns an Alchemist to the top of the deck.
(Titandrake draws: 2 Alchemists, an Estate, a Silver, and a Copper.)
Alchemist-Mine-BM might be faster than the HoP megaturn deck here, but it's the Mine shenanigans that made me post this. Although I never did so, Mine also lets me do Silver/Potion -> Horn of Plenty if I want to (which I probably should have done turn 17). Because the treasure cards are so key here, Mine gives massive flexibility.
I am really proud of this game, mostly for this play.
Titandrake plays a Mine.
... trashing a Gold.
... gaining a Potion in hand.
Titandrake plays a Potion, 3 Coppers, and a Gold.
Titandrake plays a Horn of Plenty.
... gaining a Horn of Plenty.
Titandrake buys an Alchemist.
Titandrake returns an Alchemist to the top of the deck.
Titandrake returns an Alchemist to the top of the deck.
(Titandrake draws: 2 Alchemists, an Estate, a Silver, and a Copper.)
Alchemist-Mine-BM might be faster than the HoP megaturn deck here, but it's the Mine shenanigans that made me post this. Although I never did so, Mine also lets me do Silver/Potion -> Horn of Plenty if I want to (which I probably should have done turn 17). Because the treasure cards are so key here, Mine gives massive flexibility.
8
Dominion Isotropic / Today I learned that Isotropic covers all the edge cases
« on: December 23, 2012, 02:54:20 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-234615-a52dce53.html
The first lesson here is that the 4/3 opening was massively better than the 3/4 one, especially when the 3/4 doesn't get an early $5.
The second is in the opening.
opening: Nomad Camp / Nomad Camp+Copper
That Iso actually accounts for Nomad Camp letting you buy 2 cards in one turn, and that it adds a + between the two names if you do?
That is pretty cool.
The first lesson here is that the 4/3 opening was massively better than the 3/4 one, especially when the 3/4 doesn't get an early $5.
The second is in the opening.
opening: Nomad Camp / Nomad Camp+Copper
That Iso actually accounts for Nomad Camp letting you buy 2 cards in one turn, and that it adds a + between the two names if you do?
That is pretty cool.
9
Game Reports / Pirate Ship except not
« on: December 23, 2012, 02:40:04 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/22/game-20121222-232704-f69e4cdb.html
I thought this board seemed really interesting, mostly because of Pirate Ship. On one hand, there's Remake lots of virtual money (Oasis, Bazaar, Merchant Ship, Horse Traders), which makes PS more ignorable. But the only way to increase hand size is through Alchemist. Merchant Ship/Oasis/Horse Traders all decrease it, so the ability to reach $11 for Colonies consistently is somewhat vague. The threat of a Pirate Ship/Remake/Bazaar engine will crush any strategy that relies on treasure.
I ended up winning by going a mostly treasure-less deck, picking up a Platinum after trashing a bunch to get a quick economy boost to Colonies, then do a quick 3-pile. I'm wondering if people have better ideas on what to do against a threat of Pirate Ship.
I thought this board seemed really interesting, mostly because of Pirate Ship. On one hand, there's Remake lots of virtual money (Oasis, Bazaar, Merchant Ship, Horse Traders), which makes PS more ignorable. But the only way to increase hand size is through Alchemist. Merchant Ship/Oasis/Horse Traders all decrease it, so the ability to reach $11 for Colonies consistently is somewhat vague. The threat of a Pirate Ship/Remake/Bazaar engine will crush any strategy that relies on treasure.
I ended up winning by going a mostly treasure-less deck, picking up a Platinum after trashing a bunch to get a quick economy boost to Colonies, then do a quick 3-pile. I'm wondering if people have better ideas on what to do against a threat of Pirate Ship.
10
Game Reports / I have no idea how I won this?
« on: December 04, 2012, 05:57:41 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/04/game-20121204-144619-628ecf80.html
Early on, my Swindler hits dead, and I fall behind really quickly, but then my Swindler's started hitting a little bit and I started winning?
Seriously, I have no idea how I came back this game. Was it just nice shuffle luck or what?
Early on, my Swindler hits dead, and I fall behind really quickly, but then my Swindler's started hitting a little bit and I started winning?
Seriously, I have no idea how I came back this game. Was it just nice shuffle luck or what?
11
Feedback / So Dominion Strategy has hit over 3 million visits
« on: November 13, 2012, 03:22:30 am »
All I can say is, this site is pretty cool and run by cool people, and that is a very big number.
12
Game Reports / Possible improvements?
« on: November 09, 2012, 04:51:15 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201211/09/game-20121109-014350-ef599f44.html
I tried to make a Worker's Village/Secret Chamber/Watchtower engine, and because I wasn't really thinking I did a really silly opening. I didn't really expect it to work at all, but somehow I managed to get over $10 on a few turns, ending the game with a double Province that gave me a loss (didn't track at all).
On this board, I'm pretty sure Oracle-BM beats both of us handily, but I'm wondering if WV/SC/Watchtower is actually reasonable or not. Maybe with another Village in case the WV pile runs out...
I tried to make a Worker's Village/Secret Chamber/Watchtower engine, and because I wasn't really thinking I did a really silly opening. I didn't really expect it to work at all, but somehow I managed to get over $10 on a few turns, ending the game with a double Province that gave me a loss (didn't track at all).
On this board, I'm pretty sure Oracle-BM beats both of us handily, but I'm wondering if WV/SC/Watchtower is actually reasonable or not. Maybe with another Village in case the WV pile runs out...
13
Game Reports / Check your buys...
« on: October 20, 2012, 07:28:38 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/20/game-20121020-162206-56f1d66c.html
It's a game with King's Court and lots of cantrips.
On my last turn, I have the lead 47-36. I get $18, which is exactly enough to buy 1 KC, 1 Market, and 3 Pawns for the 3-pile. So I instantly buy them all, except for the last Pawn.
I laughed really hard once I realized I didn't end the game. Then I lost. Oh well!
It's a game with King's Court and lots of cantrips.
On my last turn, I have the lead 47-36. I get $18, which is exactly enough to buy 1 KC, 1 Market, and 3 Pawns for the 3-pile. So I instantly buy them all, except for the last Pawn.
I laughed really hard once I realized I didn't end the game. Then I lost. Oh well!
14
Game Reports / I buy Thief over Noble Brigand
« on: October 05, 2012, 02:03:38 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201210/04/game-20121004-225842-5801341e.html
I intended to make some kind of Steward/Nobles/Rabble engine, but then I decided a situation where Thief was worth using was too rare to pass up.
This only really worked because of how my opponent played, but come on, Thief!
I intended to make some kind of Steward/Nobles/Rabble engine, but then I decided a situation where Thief was worth using was too rare to pass up.
This only really worked because of how my opponent played, but come on, Thief!
15
Game Reports / I finally win a Hunting Party game!
« on: August 05, 2012, 12:39:47 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/04/game-20120804-213018-41ad3700.html
Long story short:
We both open 5/2. My $2 is Secret Chamber, other person's is Hamlet. At some point I realize my deck is consistent enough for me to skip Gold entirely. I win the HP split 6-4, and then the deck is stupidly consistent and rushes the Provinces before Hamlet +Buy becomes a factor.
It's a kinda boring game, but I never win Hunting Party games so I'm happy.
Long story short:
We both open 5/2. My $2 is Secret Chamber, other person's is Hamlet. At some point I realize my deck is consistent enough for me to skip Gold entirely. I win the HP split 6-4, and then the deck is stupidly consistent and rushes the Provinces before Hamlet +Buy becomes a factor.
It's a kinda boring game, but I never win Hunting Party games so I'm happy.
16
Dominion Articles / Mini-combo: University/Inn
« on: July 20, 2012, 05:44:07 pm »
Just found out about this today, so I don't have logs. You'll have to take it on faith that this combo is fun.
Use Universities to gain actions and play some +Cards to draw into your deck. Then, use University to gain Inn, shuffling in all the stuff you just gained from your Universities this turn. Draw into the shuffled actions and repeat.
I don't know how useful this is, or whether it speeds up the engine that much, but it's a neat interaction.
Use Universities to gain actions and play some +Cards to draw into your deck. Then, use University to gain Inn, shuffling in all the stuff you just gained from your Universities this turn. Draw into the shuffled actions and repeat.
I don't know how useful this is, or whether it speeds up the engine that much, but it's a neat interaction.
17
Game Reports / I had no idea how to play this board
« on: July 10, 2012, 02:00:39 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/09/game-20120709-215424-57574544.html
Important cards: Jack of All Trades, Ambassador, Margrave, Ghost Ship, Apothecary, Throne Room, Silk Road
Important lack of cards: Any village effect, +Action on any card except Apothecary
Ignore the log. I played terrible.
So here's my problem with understanding this board.
Jack counters Margrave and Ghost Ship nicely.
Ambassador counters Jack by feeding in lots of Coppers.
Apothecary can use all those Coppers, but chokes if there are lots of Estates, which Ambassador can give.
Silk Road is fine with both, but might be too slow against Jack-BM
An engine with Throne Roomed Apothecary and Margrave is interesting too.
What would you do?
Important cards: Jack of All Trades, Ambassador, Margrave, Ghost Ship, Apothecary, Throne Room, Silk Road
Important lack of cards: Any village effect, +Action on any card except Apothecary
Ignore the log. I played terrible.
So here's my problem with understanding this board.
Jack counters Margrave and Ghost Ship nicely.
Ambassador counters Jack by feeding in lots of Coppers.
Apothecary can use all those Coppers, but chokes if there are lots of Estates, which Ambassador can give.
Silk Road is fine with both, but might be too slow against Jack-BM
An engine with Throne Roomed Apothecary and Margrave is interesting too.
What would you do?
18
Solo Challenges / Titandrake's (Only) Solo Challenge - Let's make no sense whatsoever.
« on: June 29, 2012, 06:50:05 pm »
Kingdom: Gardens, Chapel, Scout, Fishing Village, Herbalist, Peddler, Fairgrounds, Trader, Envoy, Swindler, !Platinum
Challenge: End the game.
Okay, so here's how this goes. I have a list of goals to reach, each of which is worth some amount of points. PM your logs to me. I'll figure out how many goals you satisfied. At the end, whoever has the most points wins.
Do you get to know what the criteria is? No.
Is this completely arbitrary? Yes.
Basically, think of this as me attempting to translate Bastard Mafia into a Solo Challenge.
This only works if people actually submit logs, so please just mess around and send stuff to me. Deadline is Monday, June 2, 12 PM PST.
Challenge: End the game.
Okay, so here's how this goes. I have a list of goals to reach, each of which is worth some amount of points. PM your logs to me. I'll figure out how many goals you satisfied. At the end, whoever has the most points wins.
Do you get to know what the criteria is? No.
Is this completely arbitrary? Yes.
Basically, think of this as me attempting to translate Bastard Mafia into a Solo Challenge.
This only works if people actually submit logs, so please just mess around and send stuff to me. Deadline is Monday, June 2, 12 PM PST.
19
Dominion Articles / Optimizing Play
« on: June 15, 2012, 09:19:41 pm »
If you're looking for strategy about cards to buy, you're not going to find it. This is about playing each hand as well as possible. I've noticed some people making mistakes in how they play their hands. They're small, but they add up fast. So, I figured I'd write a short article about it. I think a lot of people here already know this stuff, but whatever...
I tried to keep this short, but apparently I'm just long-winded like that :/
Using Throne Room/King's Court in an engine.
TR/KC the engine component that you need the most. If your engine relies on TR/KCed cantrips for +Actions, do that. If your engine is in the middle of firing off, TR/KC a +Cards. If you've pretty much drawn your deck, TR/KC a +$ card. TR/KC on a village should be avoided if possible as these effects are much weaker, but if you need to dig further or don't have alternatives then do it. If you only have Villages as non TR/KC actions, then play all but 1 Village and hope you draw into a better action to double/triple. And as always, TR/TR and KC/KC take priority.
Play Golems early in an action chain.
The later you play Golem, the fewer actions you have left in your deck. If you have multiple Golems, you want to make sure as many as possible play 2 Actions. Try to get 2 Actions before playing Golem to guarantee that your chain continues in case you hit 2 terminals. If Golem is being used for +Actions like the TR/KC cantrip scenario above, then play it first.
Watch your reshuffles.
Whenever you would trigger a reshuffle, pause to consider if it's worth losing the cards in play/hand for the next deck cycle. Far too many scenarios to talk about here, but just remember that you're choosing between "play Action, lose cards in hand/play for some turns" and "don't play Action, don't lose cards in hand/play in next deck cycle".
Discard junk (unless you have a plan).
Instead of thinking of Militia as "discard 2 cards", think of it as "choose a 3 card hand". You don't always want to discard junk. For instance, if you have a trasher like Remake/Steward, keep the cards you want to trash. It's not like you're doing much else with your turn. If you don't have much else, then yeah, discarding the bad cards is the right move.
Try to use trash for benefits on high cost cards.
TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. If you choose Copper to trash, it often means that you've played a terminal trasher that trashes 1 card for little benefit, which is definitely not a good card effect. So, if possible, you generally want to avoid trashing Coppers to cards like Salvager, Remodel, Expand, Develop, etc.
However, there are some noticeable exceptions to this. Apprentice and Upgrade work okay on Copper because they are both non-terminal. Remake trashes 2 cards, which trashes Copper fast enough for it to be worth it. Bishop's VP chips don't increase your buying power this turn, which is why you generally trash Copper to it.
It's okay to trash cards aggressively if you really need to make an important purchase, like Goons or King's Court. On the other hand, if you trash too aggressively, you won't have enough high quality cards left to last in the endgame. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open. Of course, if you don't need that Copper and don't have anything better, just trash it anyways.
As a final note: trashing a Curse is considerably better than trashing a Copper, and should be seriously considered. When you trash a Curse, you get an implicit +1 VP. This has exactly the same effect as Bishop trashing a Copper, except without the opponent benefit.
Use cyclers aggressively early game.
Navigator discarding okay hands and Cellar discarding Coppers early is fine. You want that fast reshuffle to get good cards into your draw pile. As the game progresses, tone down how often/how much you discard cards.
Don't give information by playing cards needlessly.
Please don't play treasures one by one, it disguises little. However, if you have to play them one by one anyways (Bank, Fool's Gold), play as many as you need and no more. No point telling people you drew 5 Fool's Gold when 3 is enough for Province. Don't play a Venture if you already have enough $ and might trigger an unwanted reshuffle either.
Play Bank and Horn of Plenty last, play Contraband first.
Bank and Horn of Plenty will give more benefit if they are played last. More treasures in play, and more of a variety in play. Contraband has potential mindgames if you play other treasure first, but I don't think it's worth it.
If I've missed anything, tell me and I'll add it in.
Edit:
Throne Room/King's Court with choice cards.
The options on choice cards can often be split into limiting or expanding options. By limiting or expanding, I mean that the options either let you play more cards or let you play fewer cards in exchange for a guaranteed benefit. Some examples are below.
Minion: +$2 (limiting) or draw new hand of 4 cards (expanding)
Pawn: +1 card/+$1 (expanding), +1 Action/+1 Buy (limiting) (There is an amazing amount of grey area in which options you consider expanding/limiting, so your opinion may vary here.)
Torturer attack: Gain a Curse (expanding), discard 2 cards (limiting)
This matters because when you TR/KC a choice cards, you generally want to choose the expanding option first. This way, if you don't like the results you end up with, you can expand again. You only choose the limiting option if you can guarantee that you will be able to use the benefit. Examples of this would be Minion if you already have plenty of money in hand, Pawn if you have actions in hand you know you want to play, etc.
I tried to keep this short, but apparently I'm just long-winded like that :/
Using Throne Room/King's Court in an engine.
TR/KC the engine component that you need the most. If your engine relies on TR/KCed cantrips for +Actions, do that. If your engine is in the middle of firing off, TR/KC a +Cards. If you've pretty much drawn your deck, TR/KC a +$ card. TR/KC on a village should be avoided if possible as these effects are much weaker, but if you need to dig further or don't have alternatives then do it. If you only have Villages as non TR/KC actions, then play all but 1 Village and hope you draw into a better action to double/triple. And as always, TR/TR and KC/KC take priority.
Play Golems early in an action chain.
The later you play Golem, the fewer actions you have left in your deck. If you have multiple Golems, you want to make sure as many as possible play 2 Actions. Try to get 2 Actions before playing Golem to guarantee that your chain continues in case you hit 2 terminals. If Golem is being used for +Actions like the TR/KC cantrip scenario above, then play it first.
Watch your reshuffles.
Whenever you would trigger a reshuffle, pause to consider if it's worth losing the cards in play/hand for the next deck cycle. Far too many scenarios to talk about here, but just remember that you're choosing between "play Action, lose cards in hand/play for some turns" and "don't play Action, don't lose cards in hand/play in next deck cycle".
Discard junk (unless you have a plan).
Instead of thinking of Militia as "discard 2 cards", think of it as "choose a 3 card hand". You don't always want to discard junk. For instance, if you have a trasher like Remake/Steward, keep the cards you want to trash. It's not like you're doing much else with your turn. If you don't have much else, then yeah, discarding the bad cards is the right move.
Try to use trash for benefits on high cost cards.
TFBs work terrible on Coppers. The better the trashed card, the better the reward. If you choose Copper to trash, it often means that you've played a terminal trasher that trashes 1 card for little benefit, which is definitely not a good card effect. So, if possible, you generally want to avoid trashing Coppers to cards like Salvager, Remodel, Expand, Develop, etc.
However, there are some noticeable exceptions to this. Apprentice and Upgrade work okay on Copper because they are both non-terminal. Remake trashes 2 cards, which trashes Copper fast enough for it to be worth it. Bishop's VP chips don't increase your buying power this turn, which is why you generally trash Copper to it.
It's okay to trash cards aggressively if you really need to make an important purchase, like Goons or King's Court. On the other hand, if you trash too aggressively, you won't have enough high quality cards left to last in the endgame. You don't always want to trash a Gold or Platinum or Lab, but leave the option open. Of course, if you don't need that Copper and don't have anything better, just trash it anyways.
As a final note: trashing a Curse is considerably better than trashing a Copper, and should be seriously considered. When you trash a Curse, you get an implicit +1 VP. This has exactly the same effect as Bishop trashing a Copper, except without the opponent benefit.
Use cyclers aggressively early game.
Navigator discarding okay hands and Cellar discarding Coppers early is fine. You want that fast reshuffle to get good cards into your draw pile. As the game progresses, tone down how often/how much you discard cards.
Don't give information by playing cards needlessly.
Please don't play treasures one by one, it disguises little. However, if you have to play them one by one anyways (Bank, Fool's Gold), play as many as you need and no more. No point telling people you drew 5 Fool's Gold when 3 is enough for Province. Don't play a Venture if you already have enough $ and might trigger an unwanted reshuffle either.
Play Bank and Horn of Plenty last, play Contraband first.
Bank and Horn of Plenty will give more benefit if they are played last. More treasures in play, and more of a variety in play. Contraband has potential mindgames if you play other treasure first, but I don't think it's worth it.
If I've missed anything, tell me and I'll add it in.
Edit:
Throne Room/King's Court with choice cards.
The options on choice cards can often be split into limiting or expanding options. By limiting or expanding, I mean that the options either let you play more cards or let you play fewer cards in exchange for a guaranteed benefit. Some examples are below.
Minion: +$2 (limiting) or draw new hand of 4 cards (expanding)
Pawn: +1 card/+$1 (expanding), +1 Action/+1 Buy (limiting) (There is an amazing amount of grey area in which options you consider expanding/limiting, so your opinion may vary here.)
Torturer attack: Gain a Curse (expanding), discard 2 cards (limiting)
This matters because when you TR/KC a choice cards, you generally want to choose the expanding option first. This way, if you don't like the results you end up with, you can expand again. You only choose the limiting option if you can guarantee that you will be able to use the benefit. Examples of this would be Minion if you already have plenty of money in hand, Pawn if you have actions in hand you know you want to play, etc.
20
Dominion Articles / Beyond Beyond Copper
« on: May 20, 2012, 11:45:51 pm »
Before I start, let's make some things clear:
1. I haven't actually played a game of Dominion in over 2 weeks.
2. I don't know what I'm talking about here? I just need something to spiel about for a bit.
3. Look I like the title too much to not make this.
---
Copper sucks.
You know, it's the core of your starting deck, but it still sucks.
That's why we like trashers so much. Get rid of all that stupid Copper. Make the treasures in your deck all shiny, shiny Silver and Golds and Platina and...uh sure Potions are shiny too. Who'd want Copper? I suppose Gardeners like it because Copper is awesome fertilizer, and Counting House likes it because it's cool to count money out in $1 increments.
But, in real life, what do Silver and Gold do? Well, they cost a lot, I guess. You know what Copper is used for in real life? Wiring. Makes the world go round, you know? Look, this is a pretty tortured analogy, and I'm regretting adding it at this very moment. Especially because there are plenty of real world applications for silver and gold. The point is that Copper deserves a little more credit.
The point of Copper is to stabilize your economy. If your deck has 4 Golds and nothing else as treasures, you're going to get some potentially ugly variance problems. But if your deck has 4 Golds and, say, 7 Copper, your hands will start averaging out more. The more treasure cards you have, the closer your 5 card hands get to the average money per hand.
Unfortunately, this comes with a tradeoff. Copper is absolutely going to drive down your average $/card, not to mention the whole problem with having a larger deck. And most of the time, you aren't going to buy Copper. It's free! You're only going to buy it if you have extra buys and no money, and a strategy that wants the averaging out effect, and is cool with a less than stellar $/card ratio. Like Gardens and Duke. Maybe Silk Road, depends on whether you're going for a rush or a long term "get >50% VP" strategy. If you wanted stability in any other situation, you'd just buy a Silver.
No, the main reason you'll have Copper in your deck is because you start with 7. And that's fine. 7 Copper is good enough to stabilize your economy. And maybe you'll trash some with Loan or Chapel, and it'll all look fine at the start. If you're building an engine, it'll look great, as long as you don't trash too many in the start and absolutely wreck your economy.
But if you're deck is decidedly more Big Money like, it's not going to help nearly as much. Once you start greening, having few Copper looks a lot worse. Especially when you consider that all those Victory cards you add are giving you +$0 money. I mean, that's worse than Copper! And being worse than Copper is pretty difficult.
Anyway, I'm just going to cut this short.
If you're going for an engine, you don't care about Copper. Drawing your deck every turn means you don't care about this variance in $ stuff. You care a lot more about the variance in engine components.
If you're going for BM and there isn't a trasher, you're not getting rid of Copper this game. Just deal with it, it's not so bad.
If you're going BM, light trashing doesn't help as much because you're removing the foundation of your deck's economy for little gain. If there's a perk added on to the trashing (JoaT/Trading Post Silver, Steward's +$2 when you've trashed enough), then consider it.
If you're going for alternate VP, you may or may not want Copper with extra buys. Use common sense, don't buy extra Coppers in Vineyard games.
If there are Cursers, Coppers start getting more useful, because you really need a good number of treasure cards to deal with the influx of non-treasure (Curse) cards. I don't know if I'd actively pick up Copper with extra buys. Just don't trash your starting Coppers as much.
That's all I have to say. See you later.
1. I haven't actually played a game of Dominion in over 2 weeks.
2. I don't know what I'm talking about here? I just need something to spiel about for a bit.
3. Look I like the title too much to not make this.
---
Copper sucks.
You know, it's the core of your starting deck, but it still sucks.
That's why we like trashers so much. Get rid of all that stupid Copper. Make the treasures in your deck all shiny, shiny Silver and Golds and Platina and...uh sure Potions are shiny too. Who'd want Copper? I suppose Gardeners like it because Copper is awesome fertilizer, and Counting House likes it because it's cool to count money out in $1 increments.
But, in real life, what do Silver and Gold do? Well, they cost a lot, I guess. You know what Copper is used for in real life? Wiring. Makes the world go round, you know? Look, this is a pretty tortured analogy, and I'm regretting adding it at this very moment. Especially because there are plenty of real world applications for silver and gold. The point is that Copper deserves a little more credit.
The point of Copper is to stabilize your economy. If your deck has 4 Golds and nothing else as treasures, you're going to get some potentially ugly variance problems. But if your deck has 4 Golds and, say, 7 Copper, your hands will start averaging out more. The more treasure cards you have, the closer your 5 card hands get to the average money per hand.
Unfortunately, this comes with a tradeoff. Copper is absolutely going to drive down your average $/card, not to mention the whole problem with having a larger deck. And most of the time, you aren't going to buy Copper. It's free! You're only going to buy it if you have extra buys and no money, and a strategy that wants the averaging out effect, and is cool with a less than stellar $/card ratio. Like Gardens and Duke. Maybe Silk Road, depends on whether you're going for a rush or a long term "get >50% VP" strategy. If you wanted stability in any other situation, you'd just buy a Silver.
No, the main reason you'll have Copper in your deck is because you start with 7. And that's fine. 7 Copper is good enough to stabilize your economy. And maybe you'll trash some with Loan or Chapel, and it'll all look fine at the start. If you're building an engine, it'll look great, as long as you don't trash too many in the start and absolutely wreck your economy.
But if you're deck is decidedly more Big Money like, it's not going to help nearly as much. Once you start greening, having few Copper looks a lot worse. Especially when you consider that all those Victory cards you add are giving you +$0 money. I mean, that's worse than Copper! And being worse than Copper is pretty difficult.
Anyway, I'm just going to cut this short.
If you're going for an engine, you don't care about Copper. Drawing your deck every turn means you don't care about this variance in $ stuff. You care a lot more about the variance in engine components.
If you're going for BM and there isn't a trasher, you're not getting rid of Copper this game. Just deal with it, it's not so bad.
If you're going BM, light trashing doesn't help as much because you're removing the foundation of your deck's economy for little gain. If there's a perk added on to the trashing (JoaT/Trading Post Silver, Steward's +$2 when you've trashed enough), then consider it.
If you're going for alternate VP, you may or may not want Copper with extra buys. Use common sense, don't buy extra Coppers in Vineyard games.
If there are Cursers, Coppers start getting more useful, because you really need a good number of treasure cards to deal with the influx of non-treasure (Curse) cards. I don't know if I'd actively pick up Copper with extra buys. Just don't trash your starting Coppers as much.
That's all I have to say. See you later.
21
Variants and Fan Cards / Dominion: Friendship is Magic!
« on: May 03, 2012, 07:30:50 pm »
Once upon a time, far away, there existed the magical land of Equestria. And somehow, you have gotten there, with all of your ambitions and desires for new land intact. It’s a strange land, where everything is candy-colored and the inhabitants are all ponies. You’ve heard rumors of this place. And by rumors, you mean what a random passerby (passerpony?) told you when you asked her nicely. Everybody (everypony?) seems to be working together to build their dominions. How will you decide to enter into this world of ponies and their magical, adorable ways? Will you hoard your money and resources to yourself? Will you insist on the same time-told techniques that have served you for so long? Or will you truly discover that Friendship is Magic?
Dominion: Friendship is Magic! is a 25-card fan expansion that has been in development for several months now. And that's pretty much all you're going to get at this moment.
I'm very interested to see what people's first impressions of the set are, so here's how things are going to go down. Everyone here gets 3 days to look over the set and make any comments about the theme, structure, balance, etc. that they want. In ~3 days I'll post my feelings about it.
Here's what you do get right now:
1. This set was playtested in about 30-50 2 player games using a customized Isotropic clone. I may release based on whether there is enough interest for it.
2. This set was balanced stand-alone, so there are likely to be some questionably strong combos with official Dominion cards.
3. There are a few cards that are simply tweaks of official cards. If you're looking for total originality, you're not getting it.
4. The effect of friendship is, "At the start of your turn, draw an extra card for every 8 friendship tokens you have, rounded down."
---$2 CARDS---
---$3 CARDS---
---$4 CARDS---
---$5 CARDS---
---$6+ CARDS---
Card Rules
EDIT: I don't think many people will see this. Stealth functional edits were made to Digger, Elements of Harmony, and Jewels. The original versions are below.
Digger
$4
Treasure
Worth $1
When you play this, reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a non-Copper treasure. Put that card on top of your deck, discard the other revealed cards.
Elements of Harmony
$2
Action
+$1
+2 Friendship
Has Moat reaction if you have 8 or more friendship. No discarding to attacks, no friendship on discard.
Jewels
$3
Treasure
Worth $0
When you play this, trash a card from your hand. +$ equal to half cost.
Wording changes that didn't change functionality added on Dear Princess Celestia, Cutie Mark, Weather Factory. Balance changes are in the works for some cards here, updated versions will be uploaded here at some point.
22
Dominion General Discussion / Project: Three-Sentence Overviews of Every Card
« on: April 03, 2012, 09:41:12 pm »
So, I reread the Three-Sentence Overview for Hinterlands (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=947.msg14427), and thought it would be nice to have an overview for every card that could be used as an introduction to the deeper strategies involved.
However, I'm not insane enough to type one up for every card, so why not let other people do it?
The rules are simple. Name a card, copy-paste it's card effect, and post a 3-sentence overview of it. I'll try to edit them in as they come. Although you are free to do a card that has already been done, try not to. I want every card to have an overview first.
EDIT: Oh god that was a lot of replies fast. Alright, time to start organizing.
---BASE---
Chapel
$2 Action
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand.
Very strong, but you need to pick it up turn 1 or 2 for the best effect. Trash as much as you can early on, then slow down. Not as useful if your deck is mostly money.
Cellar
$2 Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards.
+1 Card per card discarded.
A mediocre sifter, but hey, what are you expecting at $2. It becomes more powerful when you can increase your handsize (e.g. laboratory, tactician, +cards/+actions engines), but conversely is weakened in the face of handsize reduction attacks. Like all sifters it becomes less useful if you can directly trash the junk in your deck.
Moat
$2 Action – Reaction
+2 Cards
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.
Consider the damage you do to your own deck by buying this card before you get it to stop attacks -- +2 cards is a very weak effect to waste a terminal action on. You probably want to bother with this only against the most powerful of attacks. However, this card becomes better in a multiplayer game, as more attacks will hit you between your turns and one Moat can stop them all.
Chancellor
Action - $3
+$2
You may immediately put your deck in your discard pile
Not quite as useless as most beginners suppose, but its cycling power is too weak and unreliable to be worth a buy most of the time. Chancellor/Stash, however, is an elite combo in Province games without hand reduction. Does not trigger Tunnels, but can lead to very impressive Inn purchases, and is frequently used in "perfect shuffle luck" solitaire puzzles.
Gardens
Victory - $4
Worth 1 VP for every 10 cards in your deck (rounded down).
A powerful alternative to Provinces. However, make sure the board is right. Only buy it if you have a very good enabler to quickly end the game.
Witch
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse.
The best 5 coin card.
Kills your opponent's deck hard.
Curses are the best.
Adventurer
Action - $6
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Put those Treasure cards in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.
Best when you have a good reason to trash a lot of your coppers. Can help a deck clogged with green or curses, and sometimes good against discard attacks. Often a trap, because you have to pass up a potential gold to get one.
---INTRIGUE---
Masquerade
Action - $3
+2 Cards
Each player passes a card in their hand to the player on their left. You may trash a card from your hand.
A strong Big Money card and unstoppable attack of sorts. One of the few ways to beat Curse-giving Attacks. Play a Militia, Goons, or Margrave before this, if you can.
Baron
Action - $4
+1 Buy
You may discard an Estate card. If you do, +$4. Otherwise, gain an Estate card.
Helps to get an early Gold or Fiver.
If you don't draw it with an Estate, you're very unlucky.
The +Buy is also nice.
Duke
Victory - $5
Worth 1 Victory Point per Duchy you have.
Deceptively strong in most Province games. Buy Duchies at every opportunity while gaining Coppers if you can. Swindler, Thief, and Saboteur hurt more than usual.
Minion
Action--Attack - $5
+1 Action
Choose one: +$2; or discard your hand, +4 Cards; and each other player with at least 5 cards in hand discards his hand and draws 4 cards.
Works best with more copies of itself, and other non-terminals that provide virtual coin. Semi-resistant to cursing but hurt by excess Coppers and Silvers. Ignore at your own peril.
---SEASIDE---
Embargo
+$2
Trash this card. Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile.
When a player buys a card, he gains a Curse card per Embargo token on that pile.
A nice combination of early-game control and one-shot virtual money to get to a Gold or $5 card quickly. Buy this when you're nearly positive about what your opponent is going for and block stacks accordingly, even a common buy such as Silver. Although taking a single Curse is less of a big deal than hyped up to be, players will hesitate, giving you some control of the game's flow.
---ALCHEMY---
Transmute
Action - $P
Trash a card from your hand.
If it is an...
Action card, gain a Duchy.
Treasure card, gain a Transmute.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
Turning Estates into Gold looks awesome, but the awkward Potion cost make this one of the worst trashers. You can't get it early, you're likely wasting the rest of your cash to get this, and turning Coppers into Transmutes is almost always horrible. However, it is useful as a consolation prize in slow Familiar games, where even just clearing Curses and grabbing Duchies makes a difference, and is very occasionally worth a buy in other curse or Alchemy-heavy sets.
---PROSPERITY---
Goons
Action – Attack $6
+1 Buy; +$2
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP token.
If you can, buy it. If you can, play it. Spend your time thinking about other cards.
Bank
Treasure - $7
When you play this, it's worth $1 per Treasure card you have in play (counting this).
Takes the right setup to be helpful. In a normal $5-card hand, it's not usually worth more than Gold, and sometimes worth less. In a large hand, it can be worth a ton, but that's usually only really useful if you have +buy to take advantage of it.
Forge
Action - $7
Trash any number of cards from your hand. Gain a card with cost exactly equal to the total cost in coins of the trashed cards.
Relatively weak as a mass trasher because of its high price, and relatively weak as a Remodel variant because of its inflexibility. It can be very powerful, though, in games with large handsize so you can pick and choose what to trash to get the target value you need. Keep in mind ways to achieve your target value: if you want to Forge $8 for Provinces, it helps to plan in advance by having a lot of $4 cards, or a lot of $5s and $3s.
King’s Court
Action - $7
You may choose an Action card in your hand. Play it three times.
Is it considered rude to buy this card? I have no problem with other players resigning when I buy a few of these. This is in spite of saying things like "Good lord, I can't believe I got one on turn 3!"
---CORNUCOPIA---
Remake
Action - $4
Do this twice: Trash a card from your hand, then gain a card costing exactly 1 treasure more than the trashed card.
An elite early trasher, since it trims as fast as Steward but also gives you valuable $3 cards (Silver at the very least) for your Estates. If there are useful engine parts at $3, Fishing Village or Menagerie for instance, it will build your deck even faster than Chapel. Like most trashers, less useful in BM games and in the late game, but moves like $4 Action --> Duchy can be life-saving.
Hunting Party
Action - $5
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Reveal your hand. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a card that isn’t a duplicate of one in your hand. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
Despite coming from the variety themed expansion, does better with less variety. Best strategy is to amass Hunting Parties with silver, a single Gold and one other source of +$2 or more. Hold off on Duchies an extra turn or two.
---HINTERLANDS---
See link.
---PROMO---
---BASE CARDS---
Technically it's coming out soon, so I'll leave these in.
Gold
Treasure - $6
Worth $3
Very good at giving you enough coin to by provinces. You need two of these plus either a silver or two copper. Even when building an engine, don't forget to get Gold.
Province
Victory - $8
6 Victory Points
Victory points are how you win the game. Second sentence. Third sentence.
However, I'm not insane enough to type one up for every card, so why not let other people do it?
The rules are simple. Name a card, copy-paste it's card effect, and post a 3-sentence overview of it. I'll try to edit them in as they come. Although you are free to do a card that has already been done, try not to. I want every card to have an overview first.
EDIT: Oh god that was a lot of replies fast. Alright, time to start organizing.
---BASE---
Chapel
$2 Action
Trash up to 4 cards from your hand.
Very strong, but you need to pick it up turn 1 or 2 for the best effect. Trash as much as you can early on, then slow down. Not as useful if your deck is mostly money.
Cellar
$2 Action
+1 Action
Discard any number of cards.
+1 Card per card discarded.
A mediocre sifter, but hey, what are you expecting at $2. It becomes more powerful when you can increase your handsize (e.g. laboratory, tactician, +cards/+actions engines), but conversely is weakened in the face of handsize reduction attacks. Like all sifters it becomes less useful if you can directly trash the junk in your deck.
Moat
$2 Action – Reaction
+2 Cards
When another player plays an Attack card, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, you are unaffected by that Attack.
Consider the damage you do to your own deck by buying this card before you get it to stop attacks -- +2 cards is a very weak effect to waste a terminal action on. You probably want to bother with this only against the most powerful of attacks. However, this card becomes better in a multiplayer game, as more attacks will hit you between your turns and one Moat can stop them all.
Chancellor
Action - $3
+$2
You may immediately put your deck in your discard pile
Not quite as useless as most beginners suppose, but its cycling power is too weak and unreliable to be worth a buy most of the time. Chancellor/Stash, however, is an elite combo in Province games without hand reduction. Does not trigger Tunnels, but can lead to very impressive Inn purchases, and is frequently used in "perfect shuffle luck" solitaire puzzles.
Gardens
Victory - $4
Worth 1 VP for every 10 cards in your deck (rounded down).
A powerful alternative to Provinces. However, make sure the board is right. Only buy it if you have a very good enabler to quickly end the game.
Witch
Action - $5
+2 Cards
Each other player gains a Curse.
The best 5 coin card.
Kills your opponent's deck hard.
Curses are the best.
Adventurer
Action - $6
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasure cards. Put those Treasure cards in your hand and discard the other revealed cards.
Best when you have a good reason to trash a lot of your coppers. Can help a deck clogged with green or curses, and sometimes good against discard attacks. Often a trap, because you have to pass up a potential gold to get one.
---INTRIGUE---
Masquerade
Action - $3
+2 Cards
Each player passes a card in their hand to the player on their left. You may trash a card from your hand.
A strong Big Money card and unstoppable attack of sorts. One of the few ways to beat Curse-giving Attacks. Play a Militia, Goons, or Margrave before this, if you can.
Baron
Action - $4
+1 Buy
You may discard an Estate card. If you do, +$4. Otherwise, gain an Estate card.
Helps to get an early Gold or Fiver.
If you don't draw it with an Estate, you're very unlucky.
The +Buy is also nice.
Duke
Victory - $5
Worth 1 Victory Point per Duchy you have.
Deceptively strong in most Province games. Buy Duchies at every opportunity while gaining Coppers if you can. Swindler, Thief, and Saboteur hurt more than usual.
Minion
Action--Attack - $5
+1 Action
Choose one: +$2; or discard your hand, +4 Cards; and each other player with at least 5 cards in hand discards his hand and draws 4 cards.
Works best with more copies of itself, and other non-terminals that provide virtual coin. Semi-resistant to cursing but hurt by excess Coppers and Silvers. Ignore at your own peril.
---SEASIDE---
Embargo
+$2
Trash this card. Put an Embargo token on top of a Supply pile.
When a player buys a card, he gains a Curse card per Embargo token on that pile.
A nice combination of early-game control and one-shot virtual money to get to a Gold or $5 card quickly. Buy this when you're nearly positive about what your opponent is going for and block stacks accordingly, even a common buy such as Silver. Although taking a single Curse is less of a big deal than hyped up to be, players will hesitate, giving you some control of the game's flow.
---ALCHEMY---
Transmute
Action - $P
Trash a card from your hand.
If it is an...
Action card, gain a Duchy.
Treasure card, gain a Transmute.
Victory card, gain a Gold.
Turning Estates into Gold looks awesome, but the awkward Potion cost make this one of the worst trashers. You can't get it early, you're likely wasting the rest of your cash to get this, and turning Coppers into Transmutes is almost always horrible. However, it is useful as a consolation prize in slow Familiar games, where even just clearing Curses and grabbing Duchies makes a difference, and is very occasionally worth a buy in other curse or Alchemy-heavy sets.
---PROSPERITY---
Goons
Action – Attack $6
+1 Buy; +$2
Each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, +1 VP token.
If you can, buy it. If you can, play it. Spend your time thinking about other cards.
Bank
Treasure - $7
When you play this, it's worth $1 per Treasure card you have in play (counting this).
Takes the right setup to be helpful. In a normal $5-card hand, it's not usually worth more than Gold, and sometimes worth less. In a large hand, it can be worth a ton, but that's usually only really useful if you have +buy to take advantage of it.
Forge
Action - $7
Trash any number of cards from your hand. Gain a card with cost exactly equal to the total cost in coins of the trashed cards.
Relatively weak as a mass trasher because of its high price, and relatively weak as a Remodel variant because of its inflexibility. It can be very powerful, though, in games with large handsize so you can pick and choose what to trash to get the target value you need. Keep in mind ways to achieve your target value: if you want to Forge $8 for Provinces, it helps to plan in advance by having a lot of $4 cards, or a lot of $5s and $3s.
King’s Court
Action - $7
You may choose an Action card in your hand. Play it three times.
Is it considered rude to buy this card? I have no problem with other players resigning when I buy a few of these. This is in spite of saying things like "Good lord, I can't believe I got one on turn 3!"
---CORNUCOPIA---
Remake
Action - $4
Do this twice: Trash a card from your hand, then gain a card costing exactly 1 treasure more than the trashed card.
An elite early trasher, since it trims as fast as Steward but also gives you valuable $3 cards (Silver at the very least) for your Estates. If there are useful engine parts at $3, Fishing Village or Menagerie for instance, it will build your deck even faster than Chapel. Like most trashers, less useful in BM games and in the late game, but moves like $4 Action --> Duchy can be life-saving.
Hunting Party
Action - $5
+1 Card; +1 Action.
Reveal your hand. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a card that isn’t a duplicate of one in your hand. Put it into your hand and discard the rest.
Despite coming from the variety themed expansion, does better with less variety. Best strategy is to amass Hunting Parties with silver, a single Gold and one other source of +$2 or more. Hold off on Duchies an extra turn or two.
---HINTERLANDS---
See link.
---PROMO---
---BASE CARDS---
Technically it's coming out soon, so I'll leave these in.
Gold
Treasure - $6
Worth $3
Very good at giving you enough coin to by provinces. You need two of these plus either a silver or two copper. Even when building an engine, don't forget to get Gold.
Province
Victory - $8
6 Victory Points
Victory points are how you win the game. Second sentence. Third sentence.
23
Help! / What happened here?
« on: March 01, 2012, 12:23:09 am »
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120229-211805-56b461f4.html
Open 5/2, I go for Minion strategy, get 6 Minions, start off strongish, then my deck just completely collapses.
What I see as the main differences are
1. Mandarin.
2. Not picking up Cartographer early because I prioritized Minion first. Was this a mistake?
But other than that, I can't figure out what happened. We both start greening at about the same time, we both manage to ignore Spice Merchant (I never get to play the one I pick up far too late). Idk. Help?
Open 5/2, I go for Minion strategy, get 6 Minions, start off strongish, then my deck just completely collapses.
What I see as the main differences are
1. Mandarin.
2. Not picking up Cartographer early because I prioritized Minion first. Was this a mistake?
But other than that, I can't figure out what happened. We both start greening at about the same time, we both manage to ignore Spice Merchant (I never get to play the one I pick up far too late). Idk. Help?
24
Dominion General Discussion / A far too deep analysis of Bureaucrat
« on: February 29, 2012, 03:04:38 am »
Disclaimer: I'm secretly not actually good at this game. I just pretend I am. I fully expect some debate over whether some of the points made here are valid.
Bureaucrat is a bad card. It's bad enough that it used to be ranked the worst $4 cost. But, opinion about it has changed recently, such that now it's considered closer to mediocre than terrible. Let's minutely look at every part of Bureaucrat, and see if we can figure out why Bureaucrat is bad and why Bureaucrat is good.
The bad
So, if Bureaucrat has all these downsides, why play it?
The good
In conclusion, Bureaucrat isn't for every game. In Big Money, there's usually a much better card to get over Bureaucrat: It takes Bureaucrat 4 plays to contribute the $1.6/card baseline Province decks want, and by then the game should wrapping up. In engine games, Bureaucrat can be useful, but usually requires some good trashing support, which has the unfortunate tendency to make the attack part of Bureaucrat not work. The case where it seems to shine the most is in alternative VP strategies. The lower money density doesn't matter as much, the smoothing out effect over multiple cards is a strong point, and the attack is relevant for much of the game. But apart from those games, Bureaucrat just doesn't cut it.
Works with:
Conflicts with:
Bureaucrat is a bad card. It's bad enough that it used to be ranked the worst $4 cost. But, opinion about it has changed recently, such that now it's considered closer to mediocre than terrible. Let's minutely look at every part of Bureaucrat, and see if we can figure out why Bureaucrat is bad and why Bureaucrat is good.
The bad
- Does not directly improve your current hand.
This is probably the biggest turn-off of Bureaucrat. When you open Smithy, you get to draw a big hand. When you open Masquerade, you get to pass junk and trash the junk you receive, all while maintaining the same hand size. When you open JoAT, you at least draw back up to 5 cards in hand while gaining that Silver. Bureaucrat gives you nothing at all. You effectively play that turn with a 4 card hand.
What distinguishes Bureaucrat from JoAT is that the Silver is gained on top of the deck, rather than in the discard. So, it's somewhat unfair to look at how it affects the current hand. To get the full picture, you have to look at the benefit added to the next hand. The problem is... - The improvement to your next hand is weak.
Because the Silver is gained on top of your deck, you essentially draw 4 cards from the top of your deck, then draw a Silver. At first glance, this might look like +$2 to your next hand. But it isn't. Consider the following scenarios, from best to worst.- 5th card from top of deck is Estate. Drawing a Silver instead of an Estate has improved your hand by +$2. Yay!
- 5th card from top of deck is Copper. Your next hand improved in value by +$1. Well, better than nothing...
- 5th card from top is Silver. Next hand has not improved in value. Effectively slows down your reshuffle while doing nothing
- 5th card from top is Gold. Next hand value -$1. Well that sucks.
- 5th card from top was an engine component you needed to go off this turn. You kinda deserve this one for playing Bureaucrat in an engine deck.
I haven't accounted for the hands two turns, three turns, etc. after you play Bureaucrat, or cases where you want weaker hand values (i.e. you'd rather have $6, $8 than $7, $7), but overall my feeling is that on average the net effect is much weaker than a straight up +$2 - Engine possibilities are dulled down.
Straightforward. You're gaining more money, which reduces the chance of engine components colliding. Except it's not straightforward. More on that later.
So, if Bureaucrat has all these downsides, why play it?
The good
- You gain a Silver instead of getting straight up +$2
Sure, the marginal benefit this shuffle is not very good. But the point of Bureaucrat is that it offers a way to pick up extra Silver on the cheap. The benefits of Bureaucrat increases over time. Consider the money density contributed by Bureaucrat. With 0 plays, it adds +$0 per card. 1 play boosts it to $1 per card. 2 plays brings it to $4/3 per card. The more you play Bureaucrat, the more it improves your money density. However, tellingly, it never quite manages to bring it up to $2 per card that just buying Silver would do. It'll get asymptotically close to $2, but it won't reach $2/card. But if your deck is satisfied with not-quite $2/card over many cards, Bureaucrat gets appealing.
There's also an interesting engine dynamic to this: if you can gain money from Bureaucrat, you don't have to spend buys picking up the Silver needed to buy engine components. There's going to be a point where Bureaucrat will become a hindrance, but early on picking up a Bureaucrat on an engine board could give you the edge to build up faster. This works out best in a game with early and heavy trashing, where Bureaucrat Silver-gaining can happen even if you turn your current hands into messes that can't buy anything. Trash late and the economy sustaining effects won't matter. Little or weak trashing will cause Bureaucrat to negate most of the benefits of trashing you'll get. This early + strong trashing leaves 2 cards that could synergize: Chapel and Steward. All other trashers will only trash 1 card, or cost $5 or more. But Steward will provide the money you need anyways (which is why Steward feels so useful, now that I think about it). So, Chapel is pretty much your only option for this scenario - The attack slows down your opponent.
Let's get this out of the way first: You aren't going to chain Bureaucrats. If you can reliably chain Bureaucrats, there are just sooooo many better actions you could be chaining in a deck that manages to keep firing while gaining large amounts of Silver. So, we'll only consider the one play of Bureaucrat.
Similarly to how Bureaucrat affects you, playing Bureaucrat does not affect your opponent's turn. S/he really didn't need that Victory card to play their hand. Bureaucrat turns your opponent's next hand into a 4 card hand, as a mini-Ghost Ship.
A 4 card hand isn't a particularly strong attack. So, when is Bureaucrat's attack useful? Well, it's primarily useful when it actually hits. In most games, the odds of Bureaucrat hitting a Victory card decrease sharply. So, the attack gets better when your opponent does a strategy that gets Victory cards fast. Hybrid cards, Gardens, and Silk Road come to mind.
It's also useful when Victory cards are good to have in hand. The main three cases for this are when you want to play a hybrid card, when you have a trasher in hand, and when you have something like Vault, Cellar, or Warehouse to change a useless card in hand into a benefit. However, it's worth noting that you have just as good a chance to push a green card from a hand that doesn't want it to a hand that does.
In conclusion, Bureaucrat isn't for every game. In Big Money, there's usually a much better card to get over Bureaucrat: It takes Bureaucrat 4 plays to contribute the $1.6/card baseline Province decks want, and by then the game should wrapping up. In engine games, Bureaucrat can be useful, but usually requires some good trashing support, which has the unfortunate tendency to make the attack part of Bureaucrat not work. The case where it seems to shine the most is in alternative VP strategies. The lower money density doesn't matter as much, the smoothing out effect over multiple cards is a strong point, and the attack is relevant for much of the game. But apart from those games, Bureaucrat just doesn't cut it.
Works with:
- Duke
- Gardens
- Silk Road
- Engine games with Chapel.
- Opponents going for strategies that are helped by Victory cards
Conflicts with:
- Engine boards with any other trashing card whatsoever
- Most BM boards. There's usually a stronger alternative, and the Bureaucrat attack will do little.
- Loan. Reveals the Silver you just gained
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Game Reports / This is about as prescient as I'm going to get
« on: February 06, 2012, 12:13:50 am »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/05/game-20120205-204632-8d31b96b.html
In particular, turn 10.
In particular, turn 10.