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Messages - hhelibebcnofnena

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1
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 11:20:12 pm »
Something doesn't have to be strictly better in order to have to cost more. Lab isn't strictly better than Woodcutter but it has to cost more.

However, Cathedral is three Labs (and more) and costs the same as Woodcutter.

Projects and Events are an exception to most cost/power relationship unwritten rules. For Events, you only get the effect once per time you buy it (as opposed to once per shuffle for cards) and for Projects, you can only ever buy it once and it makes the game more interesting if that one time is early. That's not to say there's not other exceptions too.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Project - card parallels
« on: June 17, 2019, 11:08:17 pm »
Strictly better means more or less the same as always better.

That's not what people normally mean when they say strictly better, though; the number of card pairs where one is truly strictly better than the other becomes infinitesimal if that's your definition. What people normally mean is that card X is strictly better than card Y if card X is better commonly enough that it would be bad game design for both cards to cost the same.

That's why it makes no sense to say that Canal is strictly better than Treasury as a Project but more sense to say that Canal is more often than not or on average better than Treasury as a Project which indicates that Treasury as a Project might have to cost less than $7.

For example, what you've said in italics is what people normally mean by "strictly better."

I would add to your common usage definition the fact that the "strictly better" and "strictly worse" card have to also be somewhat similar (so e.g. adding +1 Card or changing + to cost reduction by ). Because Laboratory is on average better than, say, an Amulet, but nobody would call it strictly better, even by the looser definition, because they aren't similar to each other. On the other hand, you could take Poacher < Peddler < Highway as an example. You could imagine a situation where you wanted to discard a card, such as Tunnel, but usually it's a downside. And you could imagine a situation where you wanted the pure + instead of the cost-reduction, such as tfb, you usually prefer the cost-reduction. And all of these are similar enough that they can be called "strictly better" by the common usage. And I won't argue with the common usage, because language is supposed to evolve.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 04:49:14 pm »
I see now that I've misunderstood the purpose of this thread, though.

Yeah, sorry for being unclear earlier.

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 04:42:10 pm »
So? Ignoring for the moment who totally fringe Diadem-Storyteller is, if you don't want to draw, nobody forces you to play Diadem (or Venture which might draw into Diadem) while you play Storyteller.

Storyteller doesn't undo that more Coins and more Actions are always better. All that Storyteller does, once it is in your deck, is potentially change virtual Coins into card draw.

Storyteller does undo the coins, because there are some cards which may force you to play it, such as e.g. Herald, when you would play that card anyway hoping for something else.
In terms of the actions, I'm a little unclear on it, but I guess the idea is that you might play the Diadem to get more coins, then maybe buy Villa and then play Herald or something? I'm not sure.

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 04:36:11 pm »
I guess my point is that there's 2 different discussions you could have. One is about a general terminology use, which it seems like this thread was intending to do. But in that discussion, there's no reason to list out the specific possible things you can add to a card to keep it strictly better. That sort of lists belongs in the other discussion; the one about puzzles.

I think my original post is unclear on that front. It sort of seems like it wants to talk about the general terminology use, but then it goes into the specifics somewhat pedantically. I think my original intent was the second one, but I didn't think the puzzles subforum was a good place for it, given that I started with a list that I thought at the time was complete (or close to it). If I had just asked people to come up with stuff from scratch, I would have put it in the puzzles subforum. I could be wrong about that, but I'm not sure how to move the thread anyway.

6
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 03:34:05 pm »
Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?
- Adding "you win"
- Adding "your opponent takes Miserable/Twice Miserable/Deluded"
- Adding "take the Horn/Lost in the Woods"

I'm mostly talking about effects which exist. "You win" doesn't exist on any Dominion card. I also don't want to include card-specific things like "take the Horn".

Coffers can be bad if you want to play Swashbuckler without getting the treasure chest.

Okay, I will move Coffers to the one-card-exception section.

7
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 11:06:26 am »
Okay, I added a section for "almost strictly better": an effect which would be a "strictly better effect" if you removed one card from the game. So + and +Actions can go into that section, as can replacing + with +Coffers.

8
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:54:08 am »
Adding both +Action and + can cause the same issues as adding +Cards, when combined with Diadem and Storyteller.

Replacing with Coffers doesn't work because of Black Market.

Also, see here for a long discussion dealing with all of this: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=11280.0.

+Buy can be converted into + via Priest+Watchtower, so I guess +Buy doesn't count either?

9
Dominion General Discussion / Strictly Better
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:29:28 am »
This thread seems to have turned into a discussion on the actual meaning of strictly better, and segura brought up the example of Mining Village, which would be strictly better than Village at the same cost. This got me thinking about what can actually make a card strictly better (in a purely pedantic context) than another card. Here is the list I came up with:


"Strictly better effects" (not counting Possession):

- Adding a choice (such as Mining Village)
- Adding a vanilla bonus other than +Cards* (+Cards are not strictly better in draw to x engines, or if you don't want to trigger a reshuffle) +Buy
- Adding +Coffers, +Villagers, + or +
- Replacing + with +Coffers or Replacing +Actions with +Villagers
- Adding VP value to a card which is already a Victory card
- Any ability adding any other "strictly better ability" to another card (such as non +Cards Adventures tokens)

Effects which would be "strictly better effects" if you removed one or two specific cards from the game:
- Adding + (Storyteller), +Actions (Storyteller or Diadem)
- Adding +Coffers (Swashbuckler) or Replacing + with +Coffers (Black Market and Swashbuckler)

Can anyone come up with something not on the list so far?

10
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Project - card parallels
« on: June 17, 2019, 10:07:41 am »
Strictly better makes only sense for something like Mining Village > Village as there is no instance (somebody could probably construct a weird exception) in which the former is worse than the latter.

There can be instances where Mining Village is equal to Village, because you will never use the optional trash ability. However, because the optional trash ability is optional, Mining Village can never be worse than Village. And if it could, as you point out, it wouldn't be strictly better anymore.

11
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Project - card parallels
« on: June 16, 2019, 08:15:50 pm »
Yes, but "strictly better" means better in any situation, according to the game theory definition. So one may be strictly better than the other on certain boards, because you are narrowing the possibilities. But as a whole, you cannot say either one is strictly better, even if there were only one possible board in which the roles were reversed.

12
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Are promos worth it?
« on: June 16, 2019, 07:54:31 pm »
I did a mini-review of the first 5 here....
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10398721#10398721

FWIW, try to value them by how much you'll actually use them.  Sure, the regular sets come with many more cards, but it wouldn't be saying much if you didn't like say, half of them.

As far as the rest of them go, Summons isn't too shabby, nor Dismantle.
You lost all credibility to me when you rated Governor and Stash as 5/5, but Black Market only 3/5.

Based on the pattern, I assume Prince would get a rating of 8/5?

It would get a 3.6/5. Not great, but not terrible.

My point was that Governor (ranked 5/5) and Stash (also ranked 5/5) both have in-game costs of , and that Black Market (ranked 3/5) has an in-game cost of . Going back to the original post, Walled Village and Envoy both ranked 4/5, and also both have an in-game cost of . So Prince, logically, has to get a rating of 8/5 given its cost.

13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Are promos worth it?
« on: June 15, 2019, 09:49:32 pm »
I did a mini-review of the first 5 here....
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/10398721#10398721

FWIW, try to value them by how much you'll actually use them.  Sure, the regular sets come with many more cards, but it wouldn't be saying much if you didn't like say, half of them.

As far as the rest of them go, Summons isn't too shabby, nor Dismantle.
You lost all credibility to me when you rated Governor and Stash as 5/5, but Black Market only 3/5.

Based on the pattern, I assume Prince would get a rating of 8/5?

14
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 13, 2019, 04:32:40 pm »


I figure it's basically just a Reaction version of Lab, so it should cost 5. It's not identical, though. There are situations where it's worse and situations where it's better.

Version 2: added "at the start of your next clean-up phase" to prevent secret chamber loops.

Added an image

15
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 12, 2019, 11:28:07 pm »
It seems that everyone is designing around "when someone gains something" (to ensure triggering).
Here comes something different.

Sentinel
Reaction $3

When another player gains a victory card, you may discard this from your hand and draw a card.
---
During your buy phase, if this is in your discard, cards cost 1 less, but no less than 0.

You aren't allowed to look through your discard pile, so there would be no way to track this.

16
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 12, 2019, 09:36:30 pm »
I will post an image and name later, but for now:

Cost: 5

When you draw this, you may reveal this and set it aside. If you do, +2 Cards and return this to your hand.

I figure it's basically just a Reaction version of Lab, so it should cost 5. It's not identical, though. There are situations where it's worse and situations where it's better.

This can also create an infinite loop with secret chamber:
Opponent plays attack
Reveal secret chamber
Draw Lab-reaction (+ 2 cards)
topdeck lab-reaction and some other card
reveal secret chamber again
Repeat

Hmm. I missed that. What if I said "return this to your hand at the start of your next clean-up phase"?

17
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 12, 2019, 05:10:11 pm »
I will post an image and name later, but for now:

Cost: 5

When you draw this, you may reveal this and set it aside. If you do, +2 Cards and return this to your hand.

I figure it's basically just a Reaction version of Lab, so it should cost 5. It's not identical, though. There are situations where it's worse and situations where it's better.

"When you draw this" triggers have been discussed before; the issue is accountability... by the time you have drawn it; it's in your hand, mixed with the other cards. How do you show if it was a card you just drew, or one that was always in your hand? Also, when is it worse than Lab?

I feel that other people have done a good idea addressing your second question. For your first question: maybe it could have a different back, like Stash?

18
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 12, 2019, 03:40:24 pm »


I figure it's basically just a Reaction version of Lab, so it should cost 5. It's not identical, though. There are situations where it's worse and situations where it's better.

Version 2: added "at the start of your next clean-up phase" to prevent secret chamber loops.

19
Dominion Videos and Streams / Re: Dominion: Up the Ladder
« on: June 11, 2019, 05:19:34 pm »
Clickbait! You say there are sneaky pileouts but houdini doesn't do one of those at 7:10.

EDIT: You say there are questionable plays so Ok I can buy that.

There are definitely sneaky pileouts in some of the other videos in the series.

20
I doubt it; it's a promo so it probably won't require any extra materials (like Coffers or Villagers). If it does play into Renaissance themes, I would expect that to mean it has an Artifact.

Schwerin Cathedral
Action/Duration - $3
Now and at the start of your next 2 turns, set aside a card from your hand. Once you have set aside 3 cards this way, trash them. If all 3 cards were copies of each other, take the Holy Blood.

Holy Blood - Artifact
Worth 3VP if you have this at the end of the game

I would say "have the same name" instead of "were copies of each other".

21
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 07, 2019, 12:23:46 pm »
I think "at the start of cleanup" is probably the best way to go with this one. It doesn't seem ambiguous at all to me, any more than "at the start of your turn".

22
Because Estate costs €2 and Villa provides only one coin? You don't need if you already have enough coin in your Buy phase.

Merchant Guild also works for this.

23
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 07, 2019, 11:12:30 am »
(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?
If you want to prevent confusion, you can use "at the end of your Buy phase" as it is more or less the same window as the start of Clean-up.

Not with night.

24
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 10:44:01 pm »
(*) if this doesn't seem intuitive, I could change the rule to "At the start of your Clean-up phase, before you discard anything, remove tokens from here: for each token removed, you may trash a card from your hand or from play." The current wording feels simpler.

I feel that this wording would be necessary. "Trash a card" is ambiguous; no official card says this without specifying the "from".

Do you think the "before you discard anything" is necessary? Or is that implied by the "start of your Clean-up phase"?

It's implied.

25
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« on: June 06, 2019, 04:28:55 pm »
I noted, that opening Dowser + Fool’s Gold is totally broken and this was the best Inheritance target ever. So there is the updated, defused version:

Dowser
Type: Action
Cost: <8>

+1 Action
Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Coppers, Estates, Shelters, Heirlooms and Dowsers into your hand. Discard the rest.



It's still broken. You can still open with it, and in the early game, it's effectively +4 Cards +1 Action.

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