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Messages - BobbyZim

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Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: Today at 02:27:06 pm »
Since I'm here, quick question on Seaside:

If I Embargo the Curses pile, does that mean anybody buying a Curse (which I've found with Ambassador and other circumstances may be something a player wants to do) gets two Curses if they buy it as opposed to gaining it some other means?

Thereís a lot of stuff you have to do if youíre limited on table space; the tree method is only really something I do with Throne variants because it takes up so much more space than I tend to have. Iím usually playing on a ~2x~5 coffee table.

Yeah, if you're talking in feet (because a 2x5 meter table would be pretty huge), it sounds like you're playing on a table with about the same area as ours. For two-player games, we have about 3.25x3.5 feet (roughly one square meter) of playing space to work with. (That's slightly larger in area - about 10.5 square feet vs. 10 square feet.)

But also bear in mind: For two-player games, we sit next to each other - not across the table - and tilt the Supply piles at a 45-degree angle so neither player is reading the Supply cards upside down, which eats up a lot of space.

So yeah. I mean, we have found playing left-to-right without making too many rows works better, because we have far more room left-to-right than top-to-bottom.

Shows how groupthink things happen in games... pretty much everyone I play with does the tree thing; and I just assumed almost all Dominion players did...

I don't want to use a word as loaded as "groupthink." If the tree method works for you, by all means, continue to use it.

But not all of us have that much physical space we can use, and again, when it comes to trashing cards or returning them to Supply piles, as you're supposed to do, some of us - for various reasons - get confused, and the Blank card "place mats," Buy markers, Coin markers, crossed card markers are much easier to track and can be done in a much smaller space.

I did not want to be mistaken for saying your idea was a bad idea. Again, whatever works for you should be what you do, and I sincerely appreciate your suggestion.  :)

Trees take up way, way more space than the linear method I listed above, for not really any benefit. Itís also easier to see how much you have left.

I do the linear thing as well, except I don't bother to play the cantrips on the side and just stick the next to the Villages in the village row according to the order I played them.

Exactly on both of these, and that's why we found the "Blank cards as Action place mats" method worked so well for us. We can put them to the side, underneath, pull out a TV tray if we need more room, but whatever we have to do, we can easily see how many more Actions are left to play this turn, even if we're playing on something significantly smaller than the table where Bruce Wayne and Vicki Vale ate their first dinner in "Batman."  :P

Another suggestion having to do with duration cards is to turn them sideways when you play them and then turn them normal once you finish their effects.  This way you will both remember that you have special effects, and you won't accidentally discard your durations as easily (an extremely common mistake).

We do, in fact, do that already. But I should also say we have not yet had a situation where we would (for whatever reason) trash a Duration card while it still has active effects, which is the anticipated problem our solution solves.

But yes. We do that already, and it is a great idea.

For tracking actions, the best thing is to just build a tree...

This is not a bad idea, and if it works for you, it certainly works, but not everybody (cough) has a dining room/gaming table large enough to do that, especially with four or more players.

EDIT: Also, there is the issue of playing, say, a Procession on a Village, where the Village is trashed within the tree. But yeah. We had been doing a semi-tree-like layout, and we found it confused us, because we have limited space on our table to make those rows, even without the "trashed card" problem.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: June 06, 2018, 12:29:24 am »
Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.  At the end of the turn (or at least before the beginning of your next turn), you lose any action "tokens" you didn't spend.

This was such a good idea, I gave it its own thread.

Thank you so much, chipper.

Dominion FAQ / Tracking + Actions/Buys/Coins (Use for Blank Cards)
« on: June 06, 2018, 12:26:54 am »
In another thread, where I expressed - as a stupid newbie - some confusion as to how +1 Actions/Buys/Coins work, I received this response [in part]:

Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.  At the end of the turn (or at least before the beginning of your next turn), you lose any action "tokens" you didn't spend.

I must say, this was a fantastic idea, and my housemate and I figured out exactly how to do it, and I thought I'd share to a new thread so it doesn't get buried. Here's what we agreed:

For the +X Actions, that's the use of Blank cards. Blank cards are a sort of place mat on which we play an Action card. (For Throne Room or Procession or - where applicable, say - Cultist or Vassal, we don't lay out a new Blank card.) But for each Action card, we lay it on top of the Blank card, and then when we get +1 Action, we lay out an additional Blank card. If we play a Festival, for instance, that's two more Blank cards. We do this just like drawing cards with a +1 Card, in order.

For right now, we're using Embargo tokens as "Buy markers" and Coin tokens as "Coin markers." Because we've realized from that other thread we need to relearn the game a little bit, we've gone all the way back to the First Game set from the basic game, and now we've played Size Distortion, and so forth and so on, until we've done all the recommended sets and all possible combinations from all four of our "original flavor" and three expansions (Intrigue, Seaside and Dark Ages). Given that we play a game a day on average, there's no doubt we'll be caught up to speed next month, when we plan to get Prosperity. Well before we get to Seaside, though, so as not to confuse ourselves, we intend to find our old Pente set and use the red stones for the Buy markers and the yellow stones for the Coin markers.

(I should say, my housemate got very annoyed at having to pull out Coin markers for Treasure cards she had played and had in front of her, so we compromised by only taking Coin markers for something other than a Treasure card, or for Treasure cards not in play - e.g., gained from a card like Festival, or from, say, Spoils once it was returned to the Spoils pile - but that can be a "house rule" kind of thing.)

We have further agreed that on Duration cards that give us +X Cards, we cross that number of cards across our decks on Clean-Up. That way, even if, say, another player plays a Bandit before our next turn, and we reveal the top two cards of our deck, we do so, but then cross the next two down so as to be sure to remember to draw them at the start of the turn. This way, we don't forget to draw those cards, even if the Wharf is trashed. (Like, say, because we played a Procession on a Wharf.)

So in brief:

Under normal circumstances, at Clean-Up, we return all Blank cards to the Blank card pile except one. We return all Buy markers to the Buy marker pile except one. We return all Coin markers to the Coin markers pile. In the event of a Duration card having an effect, we lay out additional Blank cards for + Actions, additional Buy markers for + Buys and additional Coin markers for + Coins.

We found, while this slowed game play down a little bit at the beginning of First Game, by the end, we were doing this so quickly that it was not really an issue. And we intend to keep doing it from now on, because to be honest, my housemate is an older woman who gets confused otherwise, and I like to enjoy some beers while playing and could otherwise get confused. But even sober young people get confused sometimes.

Also, with 20 Blank cards (between the basic set, Intrigue and Seaside), there is little danger they will ever be insufficient, even in a six-player game, which we may have.

Simple, elegant, a very good suggestion from chipperMDW, and maybe something worth considering for future editions/expansions.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: June 04, 2018, 05:32:44 pm »
  • Oh, OK. So it does double the next action, even if the Procession is out of play.
  • OK. Got that.  :) I'm learning!
  • Wait... do you ever "announce" anything? Because it was my understanding for, say, Pawn or Courtier (if on the latter, I get two or more choices), when I play the card, I have to say which ones I'm doing first before doing anything. Otherwise, I could on, say, Pawn, first take the +1 Card, in which I get a Gold, and whereas I was going to take the +1 Coin, change my mind and instead take the +1 Buy to play the Gold and get a Poor House and an Estate.
  • Got it. OK.

Thank you all again so very much for helping the stupid newbie. I hope I'm not annoying you with my questions.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: June 04, 2018, 04:36:36 pm »
Hoo, boy. OK. I can see there are going to be even more questions as I get more expansions. So I'm just going to keep this thread in my bookmarks and reread it all through all my future expansions.

But now all of this discussion brings up four new questions, the first two of which come up because I looked at the wiki for Procession, and I was at first confused, but now I think I really have finally got it. The latter two go back to the original subject of the thread title, which is Counterfeit.

  • If you Procession a Duration card, the Duration card is out of play, but its effects remain, but they are not doubled. For example, if I Procession a Wharf, first I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank." Then I draw 2 more cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank" (for a total of +2 Buys, or 3 Buys). Then I trash the Wharf and gain an Action card costing 6 - say, for example, an Artisan - onto my discard pile. I then make between 0 and 3 Buys with whatever Treasure I have, and in Clean-Up, I discard the Procession and the Treasure cards. Then at the start of my next turn, in what I guess you'd call my "zeroeth Action," as it were, because it happens during my Action phase but does not cost me an Action, I draw 2 cards and add +1 Buy to my "Buy bank," for a total of 2 Buys. The Wharf's effects now being gone, it has been completely resolved, and I don't draw 2 more cards and get another +1 Buy, nor do I start the turn after that with +2 Cards and +1 Buy as my "zeroeth Action." Correct?
  • Assuming that first question is correct that remains true even if another player has - between the end of my last turn and the start of the next, taken that Wharf out of the Trash by playing, say a Graverobber. Right?
  • So if I play a Counterfeit, and I play subsequent Treasure cards one-by-one, let's say I play a Counterfeit and then a Gold. Do I announce the Gold is the one I'm playing twice and then immediately trash it to take it out of play, but still have the 6 Coins it confers? (I ask for in the future, when I get Prosperity and may wish to do this with a Counterfeit on a Copper to buy a Grand Market, for instance.)
  • On that note, if I play a Counterfeit on a Spoils, is it just like my above question, except after that, I put the Spoils back on the Spoils pile? Or does it stay in the Trash? (I ask because that matters for something like, say, Forager.)
Thanks so, so, so much again.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: June 04, 2018, 03:27:21 am »
OK. I just wanted to say/ask four things:

  • I am very flattered Herr Vaccarino selbst folgt diesem Thema.
  • I think I understand where my housemate and I first got mistaken on playing Treasures cards. It was our first game, when we played First Game, and we had Merchant. "The first time you play a Silver this turn, +1 Coin." At that time, not yet knowing cards like Counterfeit existed, we got it into our heads that you don't play all your Treasure cards at once. Our mistake, but we've got it now.
  • Now that we have Seaside, we're just checking so we're sure we're doing this right: If you, say, play a Throne Room on an Embargo, first you get +2 Coins. Then you trash the Embargo. Then you put an Embargo token on a Supply pile. Then you get another +2 Coins for a total of +4 Coins. Then you put another Embargo token on the same or a different Supply pile. Whereas if you play a Procession on the Embargo, all of the above, except having finished, you also then gain an Action card costing exactly 3 Coins. Is that correct?
  • The rules book said we were supposed to have 15 Embargo tokens and 25 Coin tokens, but when I counted, we got 20 and 30, respectively. While it is unlikely this will come up, are we not supposed to use the five spares? Just wondering.

Thanks again so much for any clarifications. I will say we are loving this game, and again, we play at least one game almost every day, and we play a lot of games.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 30, 2018, 05:06:34 pm »

An entirely reasonable turn might be:

Hah! "An entirely reasonable turn," perhaps, but as I have found, my housemate I play with hates it when a turn takes 15 minutes. I, on the other hand, love it.  :P

Thank you all very much again. This has been greatly appreciated.

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 30, 2018, 03:40:20 pm »
Thank you all again very much. I think I've got it.

So that would also apply to, say, playing Village on Throne Room. In other words, we play Throne Room, then play Village. We draw one card. We put 2 Actions into our "Action bank," as it were, or on our "Action dial." Now we draw another card and can play up to 4 more Actions, whether they are currently in our hands, or whether we draw them through a subsequent Action card that gives + Cards (say, Witch).

If I've got it, thanks so much to everybody again. Now we totally know what we're doing...

Until we get our copy of Seaside next week.  :o

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 30, 2018, 02:36:33 pm »
Imagine that you represent actions by using beads or tokens. (You could even actually do this for a few games if it helps.) The game gives you one action "token" at the start of your turn. In the action phase, you are allowed to play an action card at the cost of giving up one of your action "tokens." Some action cards say "+1 Action" or "+2 Actions"; when you play those, you take that many action "tokens" back. If you have any action "tokens" left after playing an action card, you may play another one, again handing in one of your action "tokens." When you run out of action "tokens," or when you decide you're done playing action cards, you move on to the buy phase.

Yes, that does help, thank you very much.

I think what caused the confusion here was when I looked up Shanty Town on the wiki. At first, this is how we played it:

  • If the only Action card we had in hand before playing it was Shanty Town, we revealed our hand immediately, drew two cards, and then if both cards drawn were Action cards (or if one of the cards drawn was an Action card that gave + Cards, and one or more of the cards we drew from that were Action cards), mazel tov! We could now play two actions.
  • If we had two or more Action cards in hand and played Shanty Town first, we could not ever draw two cards, but we could play up to two of the other Action cards in hand.

But because of some confusion, I think, I had read the wiki entry as saying:

  • If we had two or three Action cards in hand to begin with and played Shanty Town first, we could then play one or both of the other Action cards.
  • Having played all Action cards in hand, we could now reveal our hand for +2 Cards.

If you'll forgive me one more stupid newbie question, which I'm 98% sure is the last one:

We had it right the first time. In other words, we were either eligible for the +2 Cards immediately upon playing Shanty Town, or we lost the +2 Cards forever. But we still had the +2 Actions until either we used them or moved to the Buy phase.

Is that right?

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 29, 2018, 09:15:02 pm »
The best way to think about this may be to imagine you have a line of dials in front of you. One says how many actions you can play, one says how many cards you can buy, one says how much spending money you have.

At the start of the turn, those dials get set to 1 action, 1 buy, no spending money.

OK. That makes a lot of sense.

But just so I'm clear (because I think what I'm about to say is right): +X Cards are the first thing you do.

So if you play, say, a Wandering Minstrel:

  • Draw one card.
  • Reveal the Top 3 cards of your deck (etc.).
  • If you have another Action - either from the card you drew or already in hand - now you play that.


Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 29, 2018, 08:47:39 pm »
Correct. The main thing you seem to have been mixed up on is thinking that you use Treasure cards to buy things. You don't! You never "spend 4 Coppers on a Smithy". You never "use a Gold to purchase a Village". Instead, think of Treasures as just Action cards that are played at a different time (and don't require an action to play). The that you get from playing a Silver is no different than the that you get for playing a Militia. Both Silver and Militia are cards that give you when you play them. After you play your actions and your treasures, you add up all the that you've gotten, and that's how much you have to spend.

And welcome to the forum!

Thank you all very, very much for the help, and for the welcome to the forum. Again, we're newbies, and I honestly did try to find the answer to this question before asking it.

That said, I do have two more questions, one of which - having looked at the wiki and the forum - I think I have right, the other of which we've kind of wavered on in playing:

  • After some debate, we've been playing Throne Room and Procession as implied +1 Action cards. In other words, first we play Throne Room, then we play Village, which we play twice. Our first time, we had had to play Village first, then played Throne Room costing us one of those Actions, then played another Action - e.g.: an Artisan - as our second Action the Village gave us. Upon looking over the wiki and the forum, I think we did it wrong, and we have since played the Throne Room as I described, where play the Throne Room, then either the Artisan or the Village as we see fit. Is that right?
  • We're still not quite sure whether we're supposed to play +X Action cards where we resolve the extra Actions before going back to do whatever the initial card told us to do. To give a simple example: Say we start with two Action cards in hand: An Ironmonger and a Mystic. Is it smarter to play the Ironmonger first, reveal the top card of our deck, then use the +1 Action to play the Mystic, now knowing precisely what card is on top? OR[/i] are we supposed to play the Mystic, then the Ironmonger, reveal the top card and now go back to the Mystic to resolve the card? (If this question makes sense.)

Thanks very much again for all your help!

Dominion FAQ / Re: Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 29, 2018, 02:33:34 pm »
Note that once you've bought a card, you can't play any more treasures. So you need to do all your treasure card playing first before buying anything. This matters for cards like Grand Market, so you cannot for example, play 3 silvers, buy Grand Market, then play 3 coppers and buy a silver.

Thank you very much for your reply, except now I'm a little confused:

I don't yet have the Prosperity expansion (we just played our first time this past Christmas and have been playing almost daily since February, but we only have the original, Intrigue and Dark Ages thus far), but I looked up Grand Market.

The wiki said if you use Coppers to buy a Mint before buying Grand Market, once you have trashed your Treasure cards, you can then buy a Grand Market if you don't use Coppers.

So I'm not sure which is correct?

EDIT: Never mind. I think I understand now.

So if you play 11 Coins - say three Golds and two Coppers - with a +1 Buy, first buy a Mint, trash all those treasures, the Coppers are out of play, but you still have 6 Coins left over to buy a Grand Market. Right?

Same way if, for instance, you play a Procession on a Festival, then trash the Festival before the Buy phase, you still have the +2 Buys and +4 Coins for the Buy phase. Is that right?

Dominion FAQ / Counterfeit Clarification
« on: May 28, 2018, 02:31:48 am »
OK. I've searched every thread on this and not found the answer to my three questions about Counterfeit (I play only the card game). Please someone let me know if my understanding is right:

1.) As Counterfeit is a Treasure, you do not play it until the Buy phase, so it does not require a +1 (or more) Action to play if you play an Action card first.
2.) The +1 Buy is automatic.
3.) The other Treasure card can be played twice in the first buy (e.g.: a Copper or another Counterfeit is worth 2, a Silver worth 4, a Gold worth 6), OR the Treasure can be played once in the first buy, and then again in the second buy (e.g.: the Copper + Counterfeit = an Estate, and then the Copper is played again to buy a Poor House, and then trash the Copper).

Is this correct?

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