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Dominion General Discussion / Re: A quick Temple tip
« on: April 19, 2018, 01:12:28 pm »
Does any mathsy person know what would happen if I tried to divide by Potion?
Simple: ($6 + 2P)/P = 2 with remainder $6. In other words, if you have $6 and 2 Potions, you can buy 2 Transmutes and still have $6 leftover.

Except my point is that you also need the buys: ($6 + 2P + 1 buy)/(P + buy) = 1 with remainder $6 + P. In other words, if you have $6 and 2 Potions, but only 1 buy, you can only buy one Transmute.

But on a coins-provided-per-cost basis how does Philosophers Stone compare to Silver??

Dominion General Discussion / Re: A quick Temple tip
« on: April 19, 2018, 12:22:24 pm »
Does any mathsy person know what would happen if I tried to divide by Potion?

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Trade
« on: April 18, 2018, 09:08:24 am »
So I've seen this communal mat idea come up a few times before and I don't think I've ever really seen a design that couldn't just work by using the trash. Let's look at a couple of official cards that interact with the trash, Forager and Lurker. Forager could be a trade mat card "put a treasure from your hand onto the trade mat. +$1 per differently named treasure on the trade mat." and Lurker "put an action from the supply onto the trade mat, or gain an action from the trade mat." the only real functional difference is how the cards interact with other cards, Dominion is all about how the cards interact with each other so I don't really see how cutting these cards off from all the interactions with old cards really adds anything.

Lets have a look at your cards...

Canal: I think this is prime example of what I'm trying to get at. This card basically reads "Trash a card from your hand. While this is in play, when you gain a card from the supply you may gain a cheaper card from the trash." The thing with this one is that the bottom part wants desirable cards to get onto the trade mat, but the top part will just be used to clear out Estates and Coppers, so this relies on other trade mat cards to have full functionality. It might work okay in trade mat heavy games (looking at the other 2 trade mat cards it unfortunately doesn't) but if it's the only trade mat card it doesn't work, if it used the trash instead it can still work with all the trade mat cards (assuming they're changed to use the trash too) and all of a sudden it will interact nicely with at least 1 card from every expansion as well so the below the line part will actually be relevant a decent amount of the time.

Balance and power-level wise I think this is clearly a little too good at $3. I think this compares favourably to Moneylender and Sacrifice even ignoring the when in-play part of the card. I'd like to see this at $4 at least, although I think it needs a built in way to get nice things into the trash/mat.

Charlatan: I don't really understand the thought behind this one... I think Canal has a lot of problems at the moment, but I can at least see the thought behind it and what you were going for (I actually think a Haggler from the trash could be a great card if it's done right), this I just can't see what you were thinking. My best guess is in games with this and Canal then Canal can put Curses onto the mat for this to give out after the Curse pile empties? Why not just make a card that can give out Curses from the trash?

Witch is a really strong attack, Urchin is weak-negligible, so you're going to give out the Curse at every opportunity making the whole trade mat part of the card quite baffling. In a 2 player game saving the Curse on the mat is basically just giving your opponent a chance to give out the curse, because this can only ever add 1 and remove 1 Curse from the mat. In a 3+ player game this just doesn't work, it gives out the Curse to the player to your left and everyone else just has to discard. Non-symmetrical attacks are a pretty big no-go in Dominion, especially when they're this unbalanced. You can save the Curse up so you can play a 2nd Charlatan to give out 1 Curse to each opponent I guess? That's the only time I can see you not just giving the Curse out straight away. As well as all this the card is also overpowered, +1 Action with a Curse attack is too good at $4 and this also continues to attack once the Curses run out.

Forgery: Okay, this one I can see not wanting to interact with the trash, then it basically becomes Necromancer, but then why does it interact with the other trade mat cards? There are only 2 other trade mat cards to look at right now, but Charlatan has no interaction with this and Canal just snipes all of the cards this puts on the mat and makes this quickly become useless (and the game probably revolves around who hits $5 with Canal first to take the best card off the mat for free). I think it's very hard to find an effect that couldn't work with the trash but shouldn't just be its own thing.

This one is also very overpowered, compare to Band of Misfits. Band will usually have fewer than 7 cards to choose from, it uses cards in the supply so it can't provide exclusive effects like this can and it can't play a card if the supply pile empties. It also costs $5, because you have to pay a premium for this kind of versatility.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Antiquity (WIP! Please help!)
« on: April 18, 2018, 03:54:07 am »
I need to playtest this, but here's an update that's nastier in a lot of ways:

Snake Charmer - Action - Attack - $5
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trashed two or more cards this turn, gain a Gold.

Each other player trashes an Action card from his or her hand or gains a Curse.
A cantrip trasher and curser in one card is crazy strong. Cantrip trashing is probably already a $5 (it might not have the benefits of Junk Dealer and Upgrade but it is not mandatory which might be useful in the endgame). The gold gaining is more or less ignorable but the attack is basically Familiar.
Of course you could argue that the card defends against itself but it might just come down to a luckfest: whoever gets Snake Charmer first will more or less win the game. The only other card that trashes and junks at the same time, Ambassador, is cheaper.

Wow yeah this is busted! The Gold gaining is also super relevant because trashing aggressively and using a Gold gainer to build economy is generally when Gold gainers are at their best (look at things like Donate+Market Square/Windfall as the most extreme examples of this). So this card basically trashes, builds economy and attacks all at once and is a cantrip so it's easy to spam.

Also Catapult trashes and junks at the same time  :P. (I know it's different because you have to trash expensive things.) I guess Vampire/Bat kind of does that too sometimes, but yeah...

Have you ever tried playing with [Black Market] IRL?
I have not. I've seed it played in videos. It looks... cumbersome but reasonably straightforward. I can see tracking issues IRL: you have to remember how much of your money you've spent. What am I missing? Or is your point just that: that it's cumbersome?

I can see myself coding up something that does Base and Intrigue, and then being surprised to learn that treasures can be played in your action phase—and even more, that you can buy something in your action phase. But your claim wasn't about that, so... I'm still not seeing the thing that should make my head explode?

I think they're just talking about setting up the Black Market deck being a pain.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: You may turn your journey token over...
« on: April 09, 2018, 04:47:28 pm »
Something else to think about is that it's generally better to have one big turn than two middle sized turns. That's why cards like Giant or Ranger are better than their averages.
In the case of a payload card like Giant I agree as you can use it to get Provinces.
In the case of a terminal draw card like Ranger I disagree; in a deck-drawing engine you want 1 or 2 pairs of Rangers and it wouldn't matter if Ranger alternated between drawing 2 and 3 cards instead of 0 and 5 instead. The former can be even better as it makes your engine more consistent.
Half-Market is probably somewhere between those two cases.

Front loading all of the draw to the first Ranger is great for consistency. It's similar to start of the turn duration draw like that. You draw the name number of cards but don't need to find the 2nd Ranger within the first 3 and it works really nicely alongside other draw cards too because you can wait until the end of the tun to play the 2nd Ranger so you don't need to find as many villages at the start.

I'd price blinking castle at $3 to begin with, I think it'd be quite strong there so maybe it'd be better at $4. $2 is definitely too low though because this gives +buy so that'd make them too easy to pick up. Something that is kind of lost talking about the net market effect of this is that if you have an alternating pair of these you can set this up to give +2 Actions on the first play, so you're getting a "phantom" village you can use to play your draw during the turn.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Favorite Expansions in 2018
« on: April 07, 2018, 12:30:39 pm »
Needs updating:

What kind of updates does Prosperity need?

Prosperity is a pretty weird expansion, it's the king of payload with Goons and Kings Court and what have you but it's quite lacking in draw and trashing, especially early game.
Watchtower, Rabble, activated Cities and Kings Court is the only draw in the entire expansion! City and Kings Court only happen later in the game and Watchtower is arguably worse draw than Moat, Rabble isn't even that great either, pretty average. Compare this to base, which has Moat, Smithy, Council Room, Laboratory, Library and Witch.

The trashing cards in Prosperity are all quite awkward too, for varying reasons. Trade Route is of the weakest trashers in the game, that's fine, something has to be, but it has this interesting mat and Coin token mechanic which is kind of squandered on such a rarely used card and means nothing else can put Coin tokens on piles. Loan is pretty strong, but it has the sad trait of being unpopular with a lot of players and not particularly loved by anyone either. It also doesn't play well will the special treasures that are a main theme of Prosperity. Bishop doesn't count because it trashes for your opponent just as much as it does for you. Mint, Forge and Expand are all pretty good, but a little awkward because of their high cost and force you to build first, trash later. That isn't a problem, there aren't really that many cards in game like that, but having 3/5 of the trashers in the set play like that is a little awkward - compounded somewhat by the lacking draw!

Prosperity also has a fair few dud cards, not as bad as Scout or anything but it takes a pretty sad kingdom for Royal Seal or Venture to get any play. Counting House is kind of in a Coppersmith situation, Contraband is fine these days, it plays well with Events and the 2nd editions removed a lot of duds from the card pool so there tends to be more options in modern kingdoms, but if you don't have the newer expansions/2nd editions this might not see much play. I don't think too many people would be upset if Mountebank was cut for a slightly less ridiculous attack either.

I think Prosperity is a fine expansion overall, but there are certainly improvements that could be made.

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Transmogrify
« on: April 07, 2018, 06:33:14 am »
Transmogrify is the original Salt the Earth.

Yes, I often like to buy Transmogrify early, stack them up and mill the provinces once I've got enough of a lead to guarantee a win.

That doesn't work against a competent opponent.

Neither does Salt the Earth!

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Offering, the Heirloom that time forgot
« on: April 06, 2018, 01:21:48 pm »
This could end up better than Grand Market for one player and a Navigator Bureacratty thing for another!
It's still only one card and probably less swingy than Magic Lamp.

I'm not sure, this has the potential to be the best card in one player's deck and an actively bad card for the other. Sure it's just one card, but it's a card that you get for free and are basically forced into using, we've all seen how much faster Goat makes games and how Cursed Gold can slow things down - imagine if one player had Goat and the other CG, I imagine this can have a similar impact if the Boons fall a certain way. More importantly though there is much less skill involved with this than with Lamp. I still think it's a fun card for it's intended audience though!

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Offering, the Heirloom that time forgot
« on: April 05, 2018, 12:30:47 pm »
Seems like a fun thing to play with friends in a more casual setting, but I would imagine it would be the deciding factor in too many games to be much fun in a more competitive environment. This could end up better than Grand Market for one player and a Navigator Bureacratty thing for another!

Random Heirloom idea this made me think of is a Copper that has 1 Boon set aside Druid style that it does. So with Flame's gift it would be Goat or with Mountains gift it would be Lucky Coin and with some other Boons it would be more exotic and with Moon's gift it would be Copper.

Let's Discuss ... / Re: Let's Discuss Adventures Cards: Transmogrify
« on: April 04, 2018, 12:05:22 pm »
Transmogrify is the original Salt the Earth.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« on: April 02, 2018, 02:28:18 pm »
Just a random freezing attack idea I had for a Duration card:

While this is in play, when another player gains a non-Victory card, they freeze it 3 times.

Probably not that strong so it might also be OK to you use 4 or 5.

Yeah this is a nice idea, it's basically what the next version of Tundra is like at the moment, but it's limited to the first card gained just so it doesn't have the potential to be too miserable. I haven't tested it much though and Yeti is pretty nice as a freezing attack so it could be a little redundant.

I had chance to do a nice bit of playtesting this weekend, although I forgot to record any exact kingdoms. One game had Wanderer and Spelunkers, which I discovered have quite nice synergy with each other as having some Wanderers in reserve means you can discard down to 2 villages with Spelunkers and still kick off your engine. I remember this game had Forager, Blessed Village, Shanty Town and Wine Merchant too. Wanderer seemed much more viable as draw than Oracle, but I'm happy with it costing $3, it's still no Gear I'm pretty sure! Spelunkers was a nice way to add money to the deck, I liked how it played.

There was another game with Cabin and Frost Spirit, Frost Spirit was strong yet again, but I think it's pretty fun and interesting so I like it. Still have to decide whether to introduce measures to stop you setting aside Provinces though... Cabin was basically garbage though, like, the effect you get is strong for the price compared to cards that do similar things, but getting money, Silver gaining and Chancelloring aren't really necessary things for most decks so it seemed like you were better off just using treasures and reaping the benefits from opponent's Cabins than actually using Cabin. I still like the basic concept of the card, so here's a buffed version (with bonus coffers update!):

So now it gives you a buy too and it gains gold instead of Silver. +1 buy is nice, because the set really needs more +buy and it means you're getting something useful that you need to actually buy a Cabin to have access to. Buffing the Silver gain also buffs the drawback because it's better for you're opponent too, but if you bought a Cabin you should have a good plan for the Gold and maybe your opponent doesn't. I guess it's kind of similar to Sacred Grove now, but I think it's different enough.

Rediscover was still completely broken, so it'll need another big overhaul. I would like a Remodel type thing in the set though so I'll have to work on it some more. To be honest just making it not a cantrip would probably make it reasonable.

Outcast has been sitting there being kind of fine, but off theme and a little boring and similar to Sleigh. So I'm going to try this new thing as a replacement. Draw-to-X is a fun thing that people always seem to enjoy and Diplomat and Leprechaun are two of the most fun cards from recent sets so it kind of tries to do a similar thing to them.

So if you have exactly 3 cards in hand (after playing it), it's Baker for $2 woah! And if you have fewer cards then it becomes Lab or better, but you'll need to find a way to reduce your handisze first, playing one from a 5 card hand does nothing, but does set up your next Outcasts. I could see this at $3, but spamming too many could certainly backfire so it's $2 for now.

Oh here's better worded things:

I feel like the Bureaucrat attack (in it's current form) kind of needs to be on a weak card, just because the pin potential would be pretty real in a no Estate trashing game. That could of course be easily fixed by putting a handsize limit on it though. I was quite surprised that Woodcutter got the axe over Bureaucrat though, it's much more useful and simpler. I'd even take Thief over Bureaucrat to be honest... at least it can actually do damage in certain conditions and make for a good story.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Asper's Cards
« on: March 31, 2018, 12:19:31 pm »
This treasure Raider is much stronger than regular Raider because you can play it before your other treasures. This Night Watchman is also very different because you play it before you buy, which eliminates Night Watchman's ability to topdeck cards you buy when you're drawing your deck. Ghost suffers this problem too, even worse actually, you can't buy a card and then Ghost it if Ghost is a treasure. Devil's Workshop and Monastery just don't work as treasures of course (without very tortured wording at least).

I find calling the Night phase unnecessary a little strange, personally I think it's the best new thing since Events, the cards are super fun! What other purpose could an expansion have then adding more fun cards?


Here's a game from my Exorcist cagematch with markusin where Harvest was important. It was the only $ giving action for King's Court and Embassy could be used to seed the discard.

Haunted Mirror is my 2nd favourite way to gain Ghosts.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Revolution
« on: March 26, 2018, 04:45:32 pm »
These seem pretty sweet! I think they do a much better job of doing the symmetrical effect than Wanderers, because you had to use an action to play Wanderers and could play them in the Action phase you'd only ever use them when you could break the symmetry. I imagine these will have a similar effect on the game to Heirlooms like Goat and Lucky Coin. But whether they speed the game up or slow it down will depend on the order of the weathers.

I'm not sure on a few of these effects though. Cloudy and Windy are pretty similar, I think one of those could be replaced. Stormy is quite swingy early and just kills turns later on so I'm not sure how fun that would be and Foggy seems a bit much, I think it could just give Diverted. Of course because of the nature of these it's not about making them "balanced" like normal cards, it's more about whether the weather is fun.

Also Dew isn't a weather, that's the biggest problem. You could have something like clear or mild or maybe like hail or sleet.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Holy Week Kingdom
« on: March 26, 2018, 12:38:24 pm »
I misread this as holy weak kingdom at first and was expecting Transmutes and Harvests!

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Surplus
« on: March 24, 2018, 12:00:44 pm »
If you're using a mix of Werewolf and e.g. Patrol for draw and are planning on using some Werewolves for attacks each turn then you run the risk of drawing all of your Werewolves early in the turn and being forced to use them for +card and then draw a bunch of Patrols that don't do much. If you had all Werewolves it doesn't matter what order you draw them in, that's the value of modal cards. So if you're planning on using the Werewolf attack and some kind of terminal draw card for draw you should probably use Werewolf for that draw.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« on: March 23, 2018, 11:56:44 pm »
Every Champion game has Champion nonsense. It's called Warrior. Every Champion game is also broken and luck-driven, and I feel not the slightest remorse for Champion games with Road being broken and luck-driven. I guess it should be fixed, but well, so should Warrior. That card is easily second in my worst list. And in the end of the day, hey, if you have Road and Champion, just draw your deck, and then if you have discard for benefit, calculate the max you get, win the game. People usually don't starve revealing Moat for eternity, either.

Yeah Champ is pretty dumb, I don't play with it anymore irl. I actually like the idea behind Road, although I have a few balance issues with it as we all know. I mentioned Road here simply because I wouldn't have come up with Wanderer without thinking so much about Road following that heated debate. Perhaps putting in that Champion comment made it seem like I was taking a dig at Road, that wasn't my intent! I know how easy it is to get defensive about these things, like with the Glacier thing.

Anyway, I understand that I brought up Road here, but I'd appreciate it if you could at least give some insight on my cards as well. This topic is supposed to be about my Ice Age cards, not the Page line or Road.

As to not be a hypocrite, Wanderer needs clearer wording Commodore Chuckles is right that just saying you can play it is confusing and isn't clear enough. The question is whether calling for -action or just playing it from the Tavern is best. I like playing from the Tavern myself, it doesn't really create any new rules stuff in the way that calling for -1 Action would, you don't have to specify when it can be called so there's words saved and it's friendlier with Adventures tokens and whatnot.

Tournaments and Events / Re: Cage Match Tournament 1: Nocturne
« on: March 23, 2018, 07:03:32 pm »
Gazbag 3-0 amoffett11

Both players got Tracker in every game!

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When are Travellers ignorable?
« on: March 22, 2018, 01:27:58 pm »
Being serious though, Hero is good because of Champion, it's super easy to massively overdraw your deck once you have Champ set up and Hero is a very efficient way to jam a bunch of money your deck at that point.

That's not true. Just because you get Champion set up doesn't mean you're suddenly going to get a bunch of terminal draw out of nowhere. While it is "easy" to massively overdraw your deck with a Champion in play, you can usually get there at least as fast by deckbuilding intentionally and taking advantage of the positive feedback loop nature of Dominion instead of getting yourself stuck with the very disappointing Page line cards while your opponent has cards that actually do something.

This a foolish way to approach the game, you should evaluate these things on a kingdom by kingdom basis. Sometimes Hero is going to be the most efficient way to add payload to your deck, sometimes there will be something better. Calling cards "disappointing" and insinuating that they don't do anything is just going to make you lose games as you miss the interactions that make them strong. Even cards as weak as Mandarin and Counting House shine in certain kingdoms.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: When are Travellers ignorable?
« on: March 22, 2018, 11:57:17 am »
To be fair, I rarely buy Merchant Guild because it's that much worse than Bridge.

Being serious though, Hero is good because of Champion, it's super easy to massively overdraw your deck once you have Champ set up and Hero is a very efficient way to jam a bunch of money your deck at that point.

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« on: March 20, 2018, 03:02:57 pm »
Wanderer is very confusing. I'm assuming that playing it from your Tavern Mat uses up an Action? When the official cards say "play" or "you may play" the playing doesn't use up an action, so this is a break from that. Also, all of the official Reserve cards are "called" from the Tavern Mat, not "played," and they can only be called at times specified on the cards. There are no rules on "playing" a card from the Mat, and a time is not specified. Can I "play" it at literally any time, including the Buy phase?

It uses up an action, you can only play it any time you could play an action. I considered saying "You may play this from your Tavern mat as if it was in your hand." would that be clearer?

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Asper's Cards
« on: March 20, 2018, 02:56:02 pm »
The trade off he was talking about is that the less Roads you have, the less likely you are to start your turn with one in your hand.

Yes that's the reliability part, it's more reliability but worse draw vs better draw but less reliability. I'm saying the card is so strong that it doesn't matter, because no matter what you do you're drawing more and being more reliable that other options at this price.

In all fairness, when you write "There is no tradeoff!" one has to assume that you intend to say there was no tradeoff. Either way, I'm not opposed to testing a 5$ version, as I said. Either either way, I'm also not sure what to think of the fact that you are assuming a deck with no/poor trashing when talking about Farmer, but are willing to assume you would draw Town and Road together often enough to buy it over Lab "99% of the time". I find this hyperbole and "I'm right, fight me" comments unhelpful and to be honest, it's not the kind of discussion I want to have. In fact, as my life has shifted to doing actual games and I'm doing fan cards for fun only by now, I actually prefer leaving them flawed over having that kind of discussion. So yeah, willing to try out and discuss stuff, but no interest in fights.

In a trashed down deck the sifting is pretty meaningless, which is why that was a useful assumption. I'm comparing Town/Road to Village/Smithy style decks not Lab, Town/Road is much more consistent for the reasons I outlined, that you end up massively over-villaged because you can easily convert excess +actions to +cards. The lack of tradeoff is to with the fact that Town+Road is easily strong enough to be $5 or $6 and Town on it's own isn't particularly overcosted because village for $4 is only overcosted in a kingdom with a different village variant. I haven't used any hyperbole, I just genuinely think this effect is that good.

The fight me part was not serious at all... I can't really believe I have to explain that, especially considering we've actually interacted quite a lot and tested cards together and you must have at least some idea what my character is like and what my intention is with a comment like that. Sorry if I upset you in any way anyway, but honestly I think I've articulated my thoughts on this pretty clearly and as you said, it's just fan cards, aren't we all just here because we find thinking and talking about them a bit of fun?

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