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Messages - Jeebus

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1
Rules Questions / Re: Sailor/Blockade
« on: August 01, 2022, 05:34:08 am »
It seems to me that the rulings for these two cards are inconsistent with each other. In both cases, Blockade/Conjurer is tracking a specific card, and then loses track of it before setting up the next-turn ability. The only reason why it wouldn't set up the next-turn ability would be that it lost track of the card, and that is the case for both Blockade and Conjurer.

I suppose the answer must be because the rule is, Band of Misfits stays in play as long as the Duration card it plays would stay in play if it were in play; and if the Conjurer were in play then it would be going to do something on the next turn because it wouldn't lose track of itself in that situation... but that seems like one too many counterfactuals to really be how the cards are supposed to work, doesn't it?

Hmm, yeah I don't think that is a good reason. The rule about not staying in play when losing track is a new rule introduced with Blockade. On the face of it, the same rule applies to BoM + Conjurer, since Conjurer also loses track of the card it's supposed to move next turn. In order to say that BoM does stay in play, we have to add yet another rule as an exception to the first rule, saying that even though we have failed to set up a next-turn ability with Conjurer according to this rule, we wouldn't have failed if we had played Conjurer without using BoM.

2
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 26, 2022, 04:51:25 pm »
Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it
It's in the Hinterlands rulebook.

3
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 26, 2022, 11:57:27 am »
Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p

So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 26, 2022, 08:07:29 am »
But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.
Ok, so now we're back to revealing discarding to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 26, 2022, 05:08:36 am »
But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?
Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

6
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 26, 2022, 04:54:48 am »
Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.
right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.

7
Rules Questions / Re: Complete Dominion rules document
« on: July 24, 2022, 03:45:18 pm »
Thanks for your feedback, I really appreciate it!

-For Market Towns, I'm not sure why you're listing all the other start-of-Buy-phase Allies when you can only use 1 Ally per game. In my opinion, if anyone is playing with multiple Allies and is running into problems, that's their problem, not yours.

I listed all those there without thinking about the one-Ally rule. I wanted some place to list them all to refer to. It's technically correct, if somebody decided to play with two Allies, but I agree that it's better to change it so I moved it to another start-of-buy-phase (Arena).

-I think Swashbuckler can mention something about using Order of Masons to leave cards in your discard pile after shuffling. Or spending coffers to avoid the Treasure Chest.

Thanks, I added some of that.

-Since Merchant has the Sauna/Catacombs/Innovation ruling, you can add a similar ruling to Cauldron (gain a Herb Gatherer as your third action, then play a Cauldron to give out a Curse).

It's actually there, point 3 in the Cauldron entry (and point 3 in the Collection entry too). It's referred to without specifics along with several other similar when-gain interactions. The Merchant/Sauna thing is more detailed because it's kind of unique as an after-play thing.

But you made me realize that Cauldron and Collection can be played via Innovation just by gaining Courier, Herb Gatherer, Storyteller etc., so I added something about it. Cargo Ship, Tracker, Bauble and others can also be triggered like that, but it would fail since the gained card was already played by Innovation; so in those cases we need Way of the Mouse with Vassal to make this happen, or Architects' Guild, Haggler etc. gaining the Cargo Ship and playing it via Innovation (or more complex in the case of Treasures like Bauble).

-Sorcerer/Giant says that if they get no card, the player gets a Curse, which seems outdated? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21240.msg891965#msg891965

I didn't take it that Donald changed that ruling (which is also in the rulebook) in that post.

8
Rules Questions / Re: Complete Dominion rules document
« on: July 23, 2022, 05:31:32 am »
Finally a post that doesn't start with "finally"... D'oh!

Anyway: Already finished version 9.0!

Complete Rules for Dominion and All Its Expansions


9
Rules Questions / Re: Scheme / Highwayman
« on: July 23, 2022, 05:13:37 am »
Pretty sure that Scheme triggers when you discard a card; you don't choose a card when you play Scheme.
The intended meaning would be the same as Herbalist:
"Once this turn, when you discard an Action card from play, you may put it onto your deck."

The newest Hinterlands rulebook supports this:
"Scheme: ... set up an effect to happen later in the turn; once, when you discard an Action card from play, you can put it onto your deck."

10
Rules Questions / Re: Donate "first"
« on: July 23, 2022, 05:06:05 am »
Just to restate what Gendo said.
"At the start of your turn" is a triggered ability. Out of all those triggered abilities, Donate is first.
When you begin resolving "start of turn" triggered abilities, your turn has started already. This means that all abilities that lasted "until your next turn" are over.

So it's
1) Your turn starts (meaning your Action phase starts)
2) Resolve "start of turn" abilities

11
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 19, 2022, 05:20:08 am »
Some tangentially related thoughts on triggers in Dominion, when resolving other triggered abilities first...
The red ones don't currently exist in Dominion.

1) While this is in play, when you gain a card, +1 VP.
This triggers if it's in play, and also if it enters play from another when-gain ability. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP whether it's still in play or not.

2) When you gain a card, if this is in play, +1 VP.
This triggers whether it's in play or not. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if it's in play then.

3) When you gain a card with this in play, +1 VP.
This only triggers if it's in play right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP whether it's still in play or not.

Equivalent triggers for checking if you have $:

1) While you have $2, when you gain a card, +1 VP. [This is weird of course, but should work like this]
This triggers if you have $2 or if you get $2 from another when-gain. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

2) When you gain a card, if you have $2, +1 VP.
This triggers no matter what. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if you have $2 then.

3) When you gain a card with $2 left, +1 VP.
This only triggers if you have $2 right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

Equivalent triggers for checking the type (was relevant with old BoM and Inheritance):

1) While a card is an Action card, when you gain it, +1 VP. [Even weirder, but should work like this]
This triggers if you gain an Action or if you gain a card that gets the Action type from another when-gain. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter what.

2) When you gain a card, if it's an Action, +1 VP.
This triggers no matter what. When you resolve it, you only get +1 VP if the gained card is an Action then.

3) When you gain an Action card, +1 VP.
This only triggers if you gain a card that is an Action right then. When you resolve it, you get +1 VP no matter if the card is still an Action.

12
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 19, 2022, 03:08:30 am »
Interesting. Does any card exist that sets up a trigger on play that doesn’t specify when or how long that trigger is active?

That would be the same as saying it's active for the rest of the game (or beyond! (not really)).
There are three cards that do this: Champion, Hireling and Prince. But they do say "for the rest of the game", or in the case of Prince "each of your turns".

(in theory Prince could reach beyond the current game, but that would be the same as saying that "next turn" effects that are set up on the last turn would carry over into the next game, which is very silly indeed.)

Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)
Donald has confirmed that all of those (Urchin, Kiln, Reactions, Adventures tokens) trigger before you start resolving the played card.

13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 18, 2022, 02:10:23 pm »
But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.
And me, in my previous post.  :P

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.
Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.

14
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 18, 2022, 02:07:18 pm »
This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.

As I understood it, AJD's suggestion was with a dividing line, so not a when-play ability.

15
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 18, 2022, 01:32:55 pm »
An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.

The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.

Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".

EDIT: It's not a very satisfying interpretation though, because it means that the trigger is "when you have this in play and play another Attack card", which is supposed to be meaningfully different from a card saying "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack card". In other words, having "when you have this is play" be part of a trigger is pretty messy.

16
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 18, 2022, 07:56:28 am »
"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Hinterlands 2E Preview 3
« on: July 18, 2022, 03:40:04 am »
I wonder why Berserker isn't a Reaction card; it seems to meet all the requirements.

No "when you gain this" cards are Reactions... Trail is specifically because of the Discard part.

I see now that the weird thing is that Faithful Hound, Tunnel, Village Green, Weaver and Trail are Reactions. "When you gain this" and "when you trash this" do not make a card a Reaction, so why does "when you discard this"? It would make more sense if Reactions only triggered when other cards did something, which is the case for most of them.

18
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 18, 2022, 12:29:37 am »
An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.

Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.

I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.

19
Rules Questions / Re: Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 18, 2022, 12:24:21 am »
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.
Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.

In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.

But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)

AJD's suggestion works fine. It's equivalent to Reactions like "when x, you may reveal this from your hand" etc. Neither "this turn" or "while you have this in play" is needed, because the trigger is always active. (The only problem is that it doesn't specify that "from play" only refers to your play area, which was also the case with old Lighthouse etc., but nowadays Donald has changed it to "when you have this in play".)

20
Rules Questions / Urchin "while in play"?
« on: July 17, 2022, 05:35:07 am »


An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?

If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?

21
Rules Questions / Witch's Hut - discard or reveal first?
« on: July 16, 2022, 01:22:52 pm »
Do you first reveal the cards and then discard them, or reveal them from the discard pile like Tunnel?

The rulebook says "You reveal the discarded cards even if they aren't both Actions," which makes it sound like you discard them first, then reveal them.

But if so, it seems like you would have to play a discarded Trail before revealing.

I play Witch's Hut and discard a Trail and a Smithy. I play the Trail. Can I reveal it now from play (while revealing the Smithy from discard) in order to Curse the other players?
If playing the Trail causes the Smithy to get shuffled in, I'm screwed in any case.

22
Rules Questions / Re: Tactician / Coastal Haven
« on: July 16, 2022, 10:07:41 am »
In addition to playing Tactician in Clean-up, this also covers playing Hunting Lodge, Minion, Scholar and Way of the Mole.

23
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: July 15, 2022, 03:51:45 am »
And I will go report this on the discord too, and figure that Nick / Punchball / Jeebus will see it here.

I'm not checking Discord a lot, so I would appreciate it if you would post things like this in this forum too (like now).

24
Rules Questions / Re: Elder on original Oracle
« on: July 14, 2022, 02:59:03 pm »
There are different levels of "errata" or "card interpretations".

With Nomad Camp, the description in the rulebook did say that it goes to your deck instead of your discard pile, so it was just a matter of the card not being technically accurate. That has always been the case with a number of cards, and has never been considered "errata" as such. Black Market even used to be missing the instruction to play Treasures, but it was stated in the official "rule note" that came with the card.

Envoy did get a kind of errata before being changed in print, but this errata was actually printed in the Adventures rulebook, when it first mattered. Salvager also got this kind of "errata" (or clarification) in the Alchemy rulebook, because it used to say "+$ equal to its cost" without specifying that it was the cost in coins, which didn't matter before Alchemy. Possession got a clear errata in the Empires rulebook (which was later superseded by the actual printed card).

Most of the cards that have been changed, however, don't fall into any of these two categories. The first time the change or "errata" appeared in print, is when the card was printed. Of course, the new version sometimes appeared in online clients before a reprint (and sometimes this version was superseded by a different printed version, making it never appear in print). Anyway, for these cards it's clear that players who play with physical cards can't be expected to play with different versions than they have (which I would expect the majority of them to not even know about*). Donald has admitted as much. So yes, printed old Cellar and old Oracle should work as printed - unless of course the players decide to play them as the new versions.

* Actually this discussion is moot for those players who don't even know about new versions of their cards, because they necessarily have not read about the cards online so there is no reason to consider what they "should" do. This discussion only concerns those players who own old printings and read about the new ones.

25
Rules Questions / Re: Elder on original Oracle
« on: July 14, 2022, 10:55:31 am »
I just noticed that original Oracle says "you choose one: either he discards them or he puts them back on top in an order he chooses."
I guess if I play with that card and Elder, it would let me discard Tunnels and then topdeck (and draw) them.

Wouldn't stop-moving rule apply here? The "put them back" ability expects the cards to be in the "temporarily revealed from the top of your deck" place, but instead they have moved to the discard pile. Even though the new discard pile rule allows you to pull stuff out of the discard when required; Oracle doesn't know to look in the discard.

My thinking is that Oracle discarded the cards, so it expects them to be in the discard pile, so it doesn't lose track. Compare to Vassal. (This is why it's important to think of abilities as units. Oracle's play ability consists of all the instructions you do when you play it. Each individual effect or instruction can't lose track; only abilities track cards and can lose track of them.)

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