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Messages - goober

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1
Poor house -
There are lots of exceptions to the simple price structure, and it seems to work fine to just lump these cards into the list that seems the most similar. For this reason, poor house should just be lumped in with the $2s, it's difference from the $2s in terms of functional difficulty in acquiring is less than the differences between many of the $6+ cards, and this can just be taken into account when ranking it. Works fine for grand market and peddler.

Basic victory cards and treasures-
Including basic victory cards, including colony, on these lists won't be at all interesting and should be avoided. It's just too much of an apples and oranges comparison. Whether or not to buy basic green is a whole different question than what these lists aim to address (at least in my eyes). However, I would include silver, gold, and platinum on their relevant lists, as they function like kingdom cards in your deck. Whether to buy silver or warehouse is a similar question to whether to buy warehouse or lookout.
Copper I would exclude, as it is not typically acquired for its ability to help your deck, but rather to add any card to your deck for gardens or to use a goons buy, in which case its "strength" is irrelevant. I think the "strength" of copper in the situations in which you might buy it for its function is sort of included in the ranks for things like counting house and coppersmith anyway, and it just wouldn't make sense to compare copper to any other set of cards. Similar arguments for curse.
Potion I would also exclude, it's utility is totally dependent on potion-cost cards, and ranking it with the $4s wouldn't be very meaningful. I think the "whether of not to buy a potion" question is gotten at in the potion cost list. Perhaps the best thing about these lists is they spark discussion about buying choices, and leaving the discussion about potion buying on the potion list makes sense to me. That list is basically a ranking of what cards make potion strong anyway.

* cards-
These should all just be factored in to the ranking of the cards that can be used to acquire them, and not ranked individually.

Ruins and shelters-
Exclude. Lumping them in with $2-'s seems silly, but I suppose you could. 

Knghts-
Put them on the $5 list as a group. Like with the prizes, ruins, and shelters, people could rank them individually in their own lists if they really want.

2
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Scavenger
« on: June 18, 2012, 03:06:05 pm »
I agree that $3 is the best price point. The real difference between this card and warehouse is that you can chain these together like crazy with essentially no downside as you dig for your power cards. Having several of these would greatly improve your ability to play power cards every turn, and would make two card combos much easier to line up. With no loss of cards, the only major deterrent to loading up on them is opportunity cost, so pricing it at $2 would make it a bit too powerful in the presence of decent +buy I think. Basically too much upside and too spammable for $2.

3
Mafia Game Threads / Re: Mafia I: Murder in the Gardens, night 3
« on: June 01, 2012, 12:09:03 pm »
Just got a chance to read through all the gameplay that happened after I died. Really makes we wish I hadn't gotten myself killed off so early, it looked like a terribly fun game all the way to the end. Great job town, it seems like just about everyone made smart, ballsy, and sometimes very lucky decisions. Thanks for the game everyone, especially pops for running it!

4
You could classify TINAS' play as a mistake from the perspective that it made him appear suspicious and almost got him lynched, which is bad for his side whichever side it is, but the ability of the mafia to rolecop him has nothing to do with it. That ability is a precious resource for them, and sure they can check up on TINAS to verify, but that just means they can't check up on someone else.

5
So this post is mainly directed at ftl and Davio:

It looks like its just us abstaining at this point, and battle lines have been drawn between theory and TINAS. Do either of you guys have suspicions about other players that you want to get out there? I think now is the time to hear it. ftl, it sounds like you are kind of bouncing around a bit right now. It's great that you are thinking about everybody, and I'd love to hear a real case against a non-TINAS/theory player if you've got one brewing. Davio, it seems like we mainly miss each other online, but I get the impression you and I are thinking about this situation pretty similarly, with the obvious suspicion/dislike of TINAS but also some suspicion of his early accusers, with not much of a read on the other players. Is that correct?

Anyway, I'm thinking the other players are mainly sticking with their votes and it's going to be up to us to decide who we want to lynch. If that's the case, I think it should be TINAS, for reasons I expounded in #263. What do you guys think?

6
ftl-

I would certainly consider your post to be analysis as well as information and I think a summary style post like this is order when we sort of pause like this anyway. And I'm also glad someone got this thing back on track after I derailed it with my paranoid rantings about the observer discussion. I think we are still on 4 votes for theory. Please don't hammer him abruptly thinking you are just pressuring.

7
OK, appreciate it pops.

8
OK pops, like I said I can see this argument is over and I have lost. Can I ask that it be made clear in the sister thread not that it is not to contain any factual information about the game (like if an observer happens to know someone in the game and knows what they know)?

9
Well for one I would think most people would just call him out immediately and we'd start the game over. This situation is different in that the cheater doesn't need an in-game partner to gain an advantage.

10
Sure there is already a certain degree of trust in each others sportsmanship here, but I don't think that's really an argument for creating additional temptation and opportunity to cheat. And I assume illegal PM's would be visible to someone like theory if he goes back to look after the game. In this quicktopic, is anything stopping a player from making a fake account or using an existing alternate account and reading the topic? I mean this creates the opportunity for a SINGLE player to cheat, which is more likely than two people collaborating to cheat with PM's. I'm sure this sounds paranoid, but I just see this whole quicktopic situation as creating an unnecessary potential problem. It sounds like I'm being overruled here by pops, which is fine. That's his prerogative as mod. I just wanted a chance to air my opinion, and I'm fine with dropping it there. Back to the actual game...

11
What the hell? Seriously, how hard is it for people to control themselves? I am VERY against there being a semi-public discussion thread about this game. And I'm a little pissed that people in this game had been a part of one, especially without mentioning it here. Reading the posts it doesn't look like it was done with bad intent, but that is the sort of thing you mention to the people in the real thread as it is clearly a grey area at the very least. I think we should have the rule that there is NO commenting about this game anywhere other than this thread, and not by anyone other than alive players and the mod. Is that so hard? Let us have our fun and if you want to have some of your own go start another game. Wouldn't it be more fun to play than to watch and comment anyway? Mod'ing isn't THAT hard (no offense pops, and thanks for the heads up about this other thread). We can all discuss the ins and outs of what happened when the game is officially over, but until then, this semi-public sister thread can do no good for this game.

12
Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.

13
O, I don't disagree that there is likely a mafia or two on the early TINAS bandwagon if he is a townie. If fact I've said a couple times that I am suspicious of theory for exactly that. I would strengthen that suspicion if TINAS turns out to be a townie, and would consider it a legitimate starting point to apply pressure on day 2. Alternatively, we could go for theory right now, but if he's town, then what do we do about TINAS? We could also just wait for more people to create suspicion on themsleves, but why would anyone other than theory and TINAS make a spectacle of themselves at this point, when just lying low means we will almost surely eventually just lynch one either theory or TINAS?

Like most of us I'm getting a little frustrated with TINAS' comments, like "And I was so close. Go for it. I've said all I have to say, just keep it in mind once you know the truth." I mean, that's just not helpful and it seems to be the way most of his posts go. And now we are training him to just be silent to boot (though something tells me that wouldn't continue if he survives the day). I don't think I want to be dealing with his playstyle on day 2, day 3, and I can't see mafia killing him early on if he is town when he is obviously such a lightning rod for suspicion in the town. I think we should decide to kill him or let him live, but then with no carry-over suspicions of him moving forward or we won't be able to do anything but keep focusing on him and eventually kill him later. I don't think I can do that, so I'd like to just kill him now and move on.

14
OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)

15
Sure bandwagoning can be read as mafia, but I think context matters. We can't just suspect whoever adds votes to suspicious players or we'll never lynch anyone. I think I was pretty specific in why I thought theory's aggression towards TINAS seems fishy, and if we lynch him and he flips town then I will continue to be suspicious of him. I've never been particularly suspicious of robz or ftl. I just think this TINAS situation has sort of run its course and we should move on.

16
So the lynch of TINAS hasn't happened yet because Davio, Axxle, O, and myself all are refusing to drop the hammer. I've not wanted to do it because I thought it was a bit quick and I wanted a chance to rattle a couple cages before the day was done. I feel like at this point I've gotten my chance to do a bit of that, and might not get much more out of it today with us down to two real lynch candidates. I get the feel from Davio that he may have the same motivations for delaying. Axxle I still don't really get the reasoning for, but I think I've gotten what I can from him about this situation. O just made a post as I was writing this, and I guess he thinks TINAS is innocent, but I'm not convinced either way.

A few of you have made a point that I feel is a good one; that if we don't lynch TINAS for this, what are we going to lynch him for later? I don't like that his behavior is so erratic that I can't get a read on him. I like that he has sparked some revealing back-and-forth, but I'm a bit worried that if we keep him around (and then the mafia of course don't kill him) we will have a really awkward start to day 2, where we all feel like we still can't read him and now feel like we have to basically not even try. I envision another day of suspecting TINAS and having a hard time getting other discussions going. I also don't want to progress far in the game with a teammate that I don't feel I can have a meaningful discussion with. For these reasons, I say we just hammer him, and I'll do it after he gets his last words in unless someone else jumps in to make a real case for another player.

17
Fair enough. I appreciate the direct responses, Axxle. We may just have different styles of arguing. I'm done for the night, but I'm excited to see what's posted tomorrow. It's frustrating to miss out on the main flurries of activity. Maybe in future games we can organize by availability schedules.

18
Axxle, I just can't get my head around what you are doing. I don't get how yo can now call TINAS "Certain Town". We can all see that he was obviously acting suspiciously, it just seems that a majority of us thought this was not necessarily a scumtell. It certainly isn't a towntell as I see it. It's just erratic. Do you think his "go ahead and lynch" response to your impending hammer is a towntell? And if so could you explain your reasoning a little? I have to clarify one other thing with you as well, just so I have it straight, would you have hammered if no one had posted anything?

19
Thanks for the clarifications pops, and thanks for modi'ing.

This rules discussion got me thinking, and I propose that we adopt the arrangement that we will NOT hammer a player before telling them it's about to happen (at least after the first night) and forcing them to respond with a roleclaim and all information they may have gathered with said role and/or final insights they think might be helpful even if they are just vanilla town. We then have two options:

We can just go ahead and lynch, and if they are who they said they were we at least learn all that they know and think. Even little stuff like a jailkeeper who has had two nights to detain folks and has yet to stop the nightkill or a cop who knows one person who is vanilla town would be of value. Obviously a dying cop shouldn't reveal a town power role as that just gets them night killed. As far as I can tell, this arrangement is a strict benefit to the town in every circumstance (over the surprise lynch scenario). It just gives us more information that we can then decide what to do with.

Alternatively, we can rethink the lynch based on what they role-claim, but then things get complicated and I think would have to be handled on a case by case basis, based on the surrounding circumstances. I would probably be of the opinion to just lynch anyway in most cases, as we probably voted for a lynch for good reason in the first place, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against this when the time comes.

The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't EVER lynch anyone without forcing a role-claim and last words out of them. This also has the side benefit of allowing the about-to-die player a chance to say any pleasantries they deem appropriate before being silenced by pops. Does this make sense to others?

20
Axxle-

Of course you can agree with some of my thoughts and disagree with others. But while we're both active I'd like to press you a bit about this TINAS lynch. To me it doesn't seem like we've reached a dead end to the day and should just proceed to a lynch, though maybe that's just because all that "inactivity" happened while I wasn't watching. I'm curious what you think we'll learn from lynching TINAS before we see many other posts. I don't think we can get much from reactions after the fact, but that the real info comes from what was said BEFORE the lynch, in the form of who was piling on and who was defending. For example, as I tried to convey in may last post, it would add to my suspicions of you and theory if we lynch TINAS and he turns up town. And it seems to me like if he turns up mafia I would be suspected. What do you think we stand to learn from the lynch?

And for ftl, weird circumstance #1 was more for later in the game, when a power role townie may actually have something useful to say like factual information about what happened at night, I just wanted to clear it up now.

21
Oh, I thought we did get to see what they were, even if they were a power role townie. When we were signing up I browsed mafiascum.net and that is how it works over there

This made me go back and look at our rules though, and there are a few other odd circumstances that aren't totally clear to me. 

1. Apparently we are allowed to talk before we get lynched but after the hammer. Are we allowed to make serious posts about the game, or just say "goodbye and good luck"? Could a lynched cop or jailer reveal intel at this point?

2. There seems to be a "random kill" clause for inept mafia. I assume that if one of them is jailed, they lose the random kill, or at least get only a 1/2 shot at it?

Care to clarify pops?

22
So before Axxle's delayed hammer drops, I'd like to get a comment in. I've got a bit of an issue with Axxle's behavior thusfar, and upon re-reading the thread, I still have an issue with theory.

First, Axxle. I don't like the compliment you gave me back at post #150. Though of course I also think I "really did well" in posting, it seemed a little forced, like you were trying to endear yourself to a guy you know to be a townie. Did other people see that as odd, or am I just so self-depricating that I can't take a normal compliment for what it is? Furthermore, despite apparently liking at least some of my argument, you are back here about to hammer TINAS, which was basically what I was arguing against. You also seem to want to control the behavior of the town in general, complimenting me, telling O how to vote, posting a lot, with a mix of everything from pure jokes to serious analysis of what all roles in the game should do. Basically controlling the conversation, but always with the eventual outcome of promoting the TINAS bandwagon, even though you say you think he is town. I don't get it.

Now theory. Theory's post #177 ,"The lady doth protest too much, methinks.  *sharpens pitchfork*" seems like the sort of thing someone says when they want to make a point in a not entirely serious way, so as not to seem like they are seriously attacking. You have also championed the quick lynch of TINAS with the following justifications, as best I can tell:

#106, apparently for his generally shifty behavior and townie rolecalim; I read it as a serious vote
#111, basically saying any mainly random vote is OK at this point, making your vote seem less serious
#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie
#177, which I explained my read of above
Basically it really seems like you are driving this wagon, and are not entirely consistent in your stated motives for doing so.

So my current suspicions are axxle and theory, and I think we should maybe take a look at them if and when TINAS gets lynched, as they have both been promoting it heavily, but also distancing themselves from blame if he turns out to be a townie.

23
Wow, this is just about the most active thread I've ever seen. And I've been called out several times already! My inactivity is due to not being able to post at work, so expect a similar pattern of inactivity during American work hours in the future. I'll try to contribute as much as I can though, as I agree that more talk is better (as long as it is meaningful talk). My read of things so far:

I don't get the moves by TINAS, but he has a bit of a combative nature as I recall from dominion-related threads, and to me the moves make so sense no matter his affiliation, so I'm not sure his behavior should be interpreted as particularly scummy. I'm a little suspicious of those who quickly jumped on the TINAS bandwagon though, as to me it doesn't make sense for the town to want to proceed to a lynching as fast as possible on day one, especially without having felt out all the players. I'm less suspicious of those who are voting for me, as it seems like just an effort to get me to respond, and not a serious desire to lynch early.

So I guess I am slightly suspicious of theory and even more so of ozle, as his vote made immediately after theory's seemed like a serious attempt to move towards a lynch rather than just applying pressure, and the logic behind it seems strange. If you don't buy his vanilla townie roleclaim, and think it is evidence that he is mafia, then why end by saying "a non-powered townie is better than a power townie". If you think he's lying, then you have no reason to think he's a vanilla townie, so this makes no sense. Granted you'd still want to lynch him, but this last little argument is invalid.

24
Robz and ftl seem to be in cahoots ... they must be the mafia!

25
Davio has motive, and it looks like he chose a very poetic location for his revenge:

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120221-052459-3dc716d0.html

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