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Messages - AJD

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He didn't already have Dame Natalie; it's not clear from the log screenshot, but he used Captain to play Dame Natalie in the supply.

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Semi-Interesting Dominion Moments Thread
« on: September 25, 2021, 09:21:38 pm »
My opponent had tons of Black Cats, so what do I do? Gain an Estate in my Action phase with Falconer to bait them into attacking, gain a bunch of curses, and then draw into the curses, trash them with Forager and Goatherd, and then buy a Province with impunity.

Rules Questions / Re: Citadel and Captain
« on: September 17, 2021, 12:57:15 pm »
I see what you mean by Trader, but I still don't see what you mean by Citadel playing a card. You said: "consider a Smithy set aside with Summon. Citadel is able to put it into play." Surely the thing that's able to put the Smithy into play is Summon? Why is Citadel playing a card that Summon is trying to play? And how does this lead to a Captain'd Smithy going into your play area?

Clearly Citadel triggers when you're about to play a card. It can't trigger after you already played it (like old Citadel did), because then it can't play it twice, which is the whole point of the errata.

So it triggers before you've actally played the card. When you "would play" it.

I see that Donald X. has already responded, perhaps making this moot, but I don't see how this reading is supported by the (original version of the) revised Citadel text. It says "the first time you play an Action card", not "the first time you would play an Action card"; for it to be the "first time you play an Action card", the card has to already be played by the time that kicks in.

Rules Questions / Re: The new rule for playing cards - like lose-track?
« on: September 10, 2021, 09:46:37 am »
(This is tangential to the point, but Jeebus, the scenario you describe would not cause Village Green to be trashed.)

Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions
« on: September 04, 2021, 06:45:55 pm »
If you play an emulator such as Band of Misfits, which then plays a Treasure Map, you can't trash the Treasure Map from the supply, so you will fail to gain 4 Golds.

I dont understand, why i'm trashing the Map from the supply? BoM is in play, emulating Map, so the emulated Map tells me to trash itself and another Map from my hand? Do i missunderstand an emulator?

BoM is in play, emulating Treasure Map; you don't have a Treasure Map in play. So you can't trash a Treasure Map from play. The emulated Treasure Map is itself in the supply, but what it wants you to do (implicitly) is to trash it from play. So you can't trash it from play because it's not in play; and you can't trash it from the supply because it wants you to trash it from play. (This in an instance of the "Stop-Moving Rule": you can't follow an instruction to move a card if the card's location is not where the instruction presupposes it to be.)

Rules Questions / No Boons
« on: August 20, 2021, 01:03:04 am »
I suppose, in the unlikely event that the Boons deck and discard pile are both totally empty when you're supposed to receive a Boon, nothing happens?

Rules Questions / Re: Simple Rules Questions
« on: August 19, 2021, 04:28:29 pm »
Black Market basic rule:

The treasures played in my action phase remain in play until clean up? So, we're saying, if black market would be non-terminal, and i play conspirator after some money, i would get the cantrip effect of consp.?

Only if you played another Action as well. Black Market is an Action; you play some Treasures while playing Black Market, but those are probably not Actions; and then you play Conspirator, which would be your second Action. Conspirator only gives you the cantrip effect if it's your third action or later.

And yes, Treasures played in your Action phrase remain in play until clean-up (unless something removes them early, such as using Monastery to trash them).

Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: August 10, 2021, 02:27:45 am »
Vassal is to Gamble as...

Mountebank is to...
Event: $2
Each other player gains a Copper and a Curse.

Mandarin is to...
Event: $3
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck.

Death Cart is to...
Event: $5
Trash an Action card from your hand

Noble Brigand is to...
Event: $1
Perform Noble Brigand's attack.
These Events are all missing a +Buy.


Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Really bad card ideas
« on: August 10, 2021, 12:44:03 am »
Vassal is to Gamble as...

Mountebank is to...
Event: $2
Each other player gains a Copper and a Curse.

Mandarin is to...
Event: $3
Put a card from your hand on top of your deck.

Death Cart is to...
Event: $5
Trash an Action card from your hand

Noble Brigand is to...
Event: $1
Perform Noble Brigand's attack.

Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Early Conspirator activation
« on: August 06, 2021, 12:59:53 am »
With Innovation and a villager, first play Kiln, then play a Conspirator. Before resolving Conspirator, gain a Conspirator and play it using Innovation. The second Conspirator is the third action played and thus an activated Conspirator. And by the time the first Conspirator is resolved, you have already played three actions so that it's also an activated Conspirator.


Puzzles and Challenges / Re: Early Conspirator activation
« on: August 05, 2021, 07:27:48 pm »
Sounds like Command card shenanigans of some sort.

Not saying whether or not this is my solution, but... can you make it work? Remember, playing Band of Misfits / Conspirator counts as two separate Action card plays, even though the Conspirator never enters the play area.

Puzzles and Challenges / Early Conspirator activation
« on: August 05, 2021, 02:47:36 pm »
Hey, someone just added something to a rules-clarification section on the wiki, which I thought seemed like an oddball enough scenario to make a good puzzle. If you've seen the wiki edit, don't answer!

On a given turn, I carry out exactly three plays of Action cards. The second and third Actions I play are both "activated" Conspirators—i.e., they're both Conspirators that give me +1 Card / +1 Action in accordance with the text on Conspirator, stipulating that that happens if you've played three or more Actions this turn.

How on earth can this happen?

Rules Questions / Re: What happens if you Mastermind a Tactician?
« on: August 01, 2021, 07:05:42 pm »
Usually no. Tactician's effect is only triggered if you discard a card when you play it. So Mastermind plays your Tactician three times: first you discard your hand, then you are told to discard your hand but have no cards to discard; last the same thing happens again. So only the first time you played Tactician has an effect for your next turn.

Now, if for some reason you have the +1 Card token from the Adventures expansion on Tactician, then it would trigger three times on the next turn: each time you played Tactician, you would draw a card and then discard your hand, so each play of Tactician would successfully discard your hand, and so all three plays would activate on your next turn.

Dominion Articles / Re: Dominion is getting worse with each expansion
« on: August 01, 2021, 07:02:36 pm »
I mean, of course, by the same token you could say that, for instance, games with Horses are more interesting than games without them. In that case, you're stuck at 100% uninteresting kingdoms until Menagerie comes out, and then Menagerie drastically increases the rate of interesting kingdoms. Therefore new expansions make Dominion better.

Hmm, well, you could end the game in one of the normal ways, and then someone plays an extra turn with Fleet and returns something to the supply?

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 22, 2021, 06:40:41 pm »
The card Visit doesn't say the Relative takes turns at any time other than when you play Visit. It says who plays the turn when the Relative does have a turn (you do), and it says what their starting deck is; but the card text provides no mechanism for your Relative to take any other turns.

Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 22, 2021, 01:09:53 pm »
Sure they pass cards (if they have some in hand), why wouldn't they?

I don't think this is right. Masquerade passes cards to the "next player"; the Relative isn't a player.

Rules Questions / Re: Timing of Ball
« on: July 14, 2021, 01:31:45 am »
You are correct; they are (selected and) gained one at a time, so gaining the first one reduces the cost of Destrier and takes up space in your discard pile before you select the second one.

Rules Questions / Re: Moving action cards when you play them
« on: July 09, 2021, 11:34:47 am »
Putting a card into play isn’t a separate step that is caused by playing a card
And yet the rules literally say "playing an Action card has three steps...".

Right, putting the card into play isn't caused by playing a card; it's part of playing a card.

Rules Questions / Re: Moving action cards when you play them
« on: July 09, 2021, 01:16:10 am »
I guess there are implied exceptions to "if it specifies where the card is coming from", where specific sources are inferred but not specified. If you're supposed to discard something from your hand, "discard" is sufficient without explicitly stating where it's coming from; if you're supposed to gain something from the supply, "gain" is sufficient without explicitly stating that.

Rules Questions / Re: Moving action cards when you play them
« on: July 09, 2021, 01:14:37 am »
I think it’s really that “move a card into play” is part of the definition of “play a card”; it’s not just a side-effect that comes from playing a card. Those 3 steps quoted in the OP that happen when you play a card aren’t just a list of things that result from playing a card, it’s what the term “play a card” means.

Under that understanding of “play a card”, after Throne Room plays a card, it expects that card to be in play. You can think of it as Throne Room really says all that quoted stuff rather than “play a card”. Throne Room doesn’t “know” anything that happens to the card when it gets played outside of the instructions written on a TR itself. It always acts under the assumption that nothing else has happened to change or move anything. So when it goes to play Mining Village the second time, it expects it to be in play because that’s right where it left it. Then when you get to the 2nd step in the “play a card” definition, the Stop-Moving rule kicks in and prevents Mining Village from moving.

Yes, exactly. The stop-moving rule:

"An effect can move a card if it specifies where the card is coming from, or if the effect put the card where it is now."

Throne a Mining Village. Throne Room says "play an Action card from your hand". Fine, it specifies where the card is coming from, it's from your hand, so you put the Mining Village in play. You trash the Mining Village, now time to play it again, aha, but it's in the trash. Throne Room doesn't say "from the trash", and Throne Room isn't what put it in the trash (Mining Village did that itself), so Throne Room can't move it.

Rules Questions / Re: Moving action cards when you play them
« on: July 08, 2021, 12:13:46 pm »
Quote from: crj
When I Throne a Mining Village and trash it on the first play, when I play it for a second time, what actual rule of the game stops it being moved from the Trash to my "in play" area?
The Mining Village isn't where Throne Room expected it to be (which is, in play).

The rule is known as the "Stop-Moving rule".

Rules Questions / Another absurd scenario
« on: July 03, 2021, 10:48:14 pm »
Encampment is supposed to be returned to the supply "at the start of Clean-up". If an Encampment is somehow played during the Clean-up phase (uhhhhh Hermit --> gain Madman --> play Sheepdog / Way of the Mouse / Vassal --> Encampment) and set aside, is it returned to the supply at the start of Clean-up during the next player's turn? On my next turn? Some other time?

Rules Questions / Re: Priest + Failed to trash?
« on: June 25, 2021, 04:38:08 pm »
Note that in case 2, the stop-moving rule is why the card doesn’t get trashed; because it isn’t where the effect expects it to be (in play).

In case 3, there are two separate reasons the card doesn’t get trashed. The stop-moving rule still applies because the effect expects the card to be in play, but instead it is in the trash (and it also didn’t move into in-play because of the stop-moving rule). And secondly, a card that is currently in the trash cannot be trashed because trashing involves moving to the trash.

Wait, why would the stop-moving rule be the issue in case 2? Imagine a card that works just like Captain, but without the "leaving it in place" rule. If this alt-Captain played Acting Troupe, then wouldn't the Acting Troupe trash itself and you'd get the +$2?  Isn't the the main reason for the "leaving it in place" clause, specifically so that self-trashers don't end up in the trash?

No, “leaving it there” only means “don’t move it to the in-play area like you normally do when you play a card”. The fact the card is not in the in-play area, where the effect “trash this” expects it to be, is what prevents it from getting trashed. The reason for “Leaving it there” has nothing to do with self-trashers, it is needed to prevent the card from being moved to the in-play area (where it would then get discarded along with all other cards you played that turn; in effect letting you gain the card).
This is evidenced by the fact that if you play a Workshop with Captain, you are still able to gain that very same Workshop with it, so the "leaving it there" clearly does not apply to all card effects.

This came up in a game yesterday. Does that mean Necromancer can play a Lurker from the trash to gain that specific Lurker from the trash? It seems like it.

Yes. That's specifically mentioned on the wiki:
The restriction on movement only applies to effects that would have moved the card out of the play area if it were played normally, for example, Island will fail to move itself out of the trash and onto your Island Mat, although any other effect will still apply, such as moving a card from your hand onto your Island Mat; if a card is looking to move a card out of the trash, it may move itself - thus, if you choose to play a Lurker, Graverobber or Rogue in the trash, it can gain itself out of the trash as a result.

That wiki quote seems a bit misleading, if by "the restriction on movement" it's referring to the "leaving it there" text. "Leaving it there" does not apply to effects that would have moved the card out of the play area if it were played normally... the stop-moving rule is what causes that, not the text on Necromancer. Granted, the "leaving it there" is why stop-moving ends up coming into play; but it's not a special case of stop-moving or anything; it's the exact same thing that happens if you Throne Room a Pillage or a Madman.

In context, "the restriction on movement" does not appear to refer to the "leaving it there" text. It refers to the text from the FAQ, which says "if an effect tries to move it... it will fail to move it."

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Citadel errata?
« on: June 20, 2021, 10:57:12 am »

(...Huh, I wonder how I missed that post from Donald X.; the Rules forum wasn't highlighted for me as having unread posts.)

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