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Messages - markusin

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1
I've had an experience where Warrior flipped my deck early on due to luck, but in general it's quite effective when it hits an important deck component. Losing a village when the villages are empty can hurt, moreso than many other hexes.

Locusts is similarly annoying, but is closer to the Saboteur effect. Losing an important action card with no good replacement can suck. Sometimes you can lose a key $3 Action card and are forced to take a $2 Action card even if you don't want one, or perhaps you can't replace it at all.

2
I don't get why River's Gift is above Sun's Gift here. Sun's Gift at the end of the turn is basically duration draw when it discards green cards, and it can discard Coppers too. Sun's Gift does a much better job at preventing dud turns than River's Gift. River's gift is only going to be better when your next hand was already pretty perfect or if you got it at the start of your turn when your top of deck had no junk. That or you spam River's Gift with King's Court on Druid. You're more likely to lose a game due to a dud turn than not having your perfect hand be more perfect.

Edit: Well, River's Gift also has the edge when your next hand is all cantrips or something, to be fair.

River Gift is much much better when you are drawing your deck, which is big.

This is true, but Sun's Gift is a lot more relevant when you get it before you actually get to the point where you're drawing your deck, possibly speeding you up by a turn with its combined cycling and ability to help reach higher price points more easily. Bard, Tracker, Blessed Village, and Idol are all often seen in the early game where you still have a sizeable deck. Maybe Pixie is an exception where you don't want to trash it for Sun's Gift. Sun's Gift can also make up for the lack of draw compared to River's Gift later in the turn if received when you're trying to kick off, say after playing a Village.

Weighing the Boons solely in the context of massive engines seems like it doesn't give a complete picture of what these Boons are truly capable of.

See it this way: the ceiling for Sun is higher (discarding 4 bad cards, or doing some turn-saving reordering), but it's much less reliable. River helps you every single time, no matter what deck you're building (edge cases: very small deck, minion).
Most Boons are situational, but River is a sure thing.

I get this perspective, but I'm imagining Druid and can't help but think I am way more likely to use Druid for Sun's Gift and River's Gift in most situations, though neither would be the main reason to get Druid.

3
The problem isn't the analogy, the problem is that Ruined Market is still going to hurt your deck more often than it helps, and it hurts a lot when it does. So Seaway isn't amazing just because there's an edge case where you want to buy Ruined Market.

That makes sense. Maybe I just hugely overestimate the usefulness of ruined market.

There's a context to consider. Wanting Ruined Market even ~25% of the time is super huge compared to any of the other Ruins. A card that is desirable ~25% of the time is terrible compared to many of the other $4 and $5 cards. There is a much lower ceiling for how good one of the Ruins has to be to top the Ruins list.

I'm not claimung Seaway is bad. It's just that saying Seaway has all the benefits of Ruined Market is not a very compelling argument for Seaway being good. After all, Woodcutter didn't make the cut in 2nd Edition.

4
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards 2017 Edition: Boons
« on: January 22, 2018, 10:30:04 am »
I don't get why River's Gift is above Sun's Gift here. Sun's Gift at the end of the turn is basically duration draw when it discards green cards, and it can discard Coppers too. Sun's Gift does a much better job at preventing dud turns than River's Gift. River's gift is only going to be better when your next hand was already pretty perfect or if you got it at the start of your turn when your top of deck had no junk. That or you spam River's Gift with King's Court on Druid. You're more likely to lose a game due to a dud turn than not having your perfect hand be more perfect.

Edit: Well, River's Gift also has the edge when your next hand is all cantrips or something, to be fair.

River Gift is much much better when you are drawing your deck, which is big.

This is true, but Sun's Gift is a lot more relevant when you get it before you actually get to the point where you're drawing your deck, possibly speeding you up by a turn with its combined cycling and ability to help reach higher price points more easily. Bard, Tracker, Blessed Village, and Idol are all often seen in the early game where you still have a sizeable deck. Maybe Pixie is an exception where you don't want to trash it for Sun's Gift. Sun's Gift can also make up for the lack of draw compared to River's Gift later in the turn if received when you're trying to kick off, say after playing a Village.

Weighing the Boons solely in the context of massive engines seems like it doesn't give a complete picture of what these Boons are truly capable of.

5
Dominion General Discussion / Re: The Dominion Cards 2017 Edition: Boons
« on: January 22, 2018, 09:43:47 am »
I don't get why River's Gift is above Sun's Gift here. Sun's Gift at the end of the turn is basically duration draw when it discards green cards, and it can discard Coppers too. Sun's Gift does a much better job at preventing dud turns than River's Gift. River's gift is only going to be better when your next hand was already pretty perfect or if you got it at the start of your turn when your top of deck had no junk. That or you spam River's Gift with King's Court on Druid. You're more likely to lose a game due to a dud turn than not having your perfect hand be more perfect.

Edit: Well, River's Gift also has the edge when your next hand is all cantrips or something, to be fair.

6
...Library, Cursed Village, Jack, Watchtower...

...There's also magic lamp, conspirator, shanty town, horn of plenty, diplomat, enemy Haunted Woods etc... it's not remotely close to 4 cards or only basic draw-to-X cards in the slightest.

And because of those interactions, a card that does nothing but decrease your handsize on play is as high as the second best Ruin? Am I reading this right?

Ruined Library combos with every village in the game (a lot more "combos"), Magic Lamp, Horn of Plenty,etc. Does Ruined Village do all of that?

Or maybe all of this is silly, Ruined Village is objectively the worst Ruin no matter how you look at it, and the list is wrong because Ruined Library is second worst behind Ruined Village.

I think it matters whether we are talking about Cultist, Marauder, or Death Cart. I can't imagine wanting half of the mentioned synergy cards in games with heavy Ruins junking where you are struggling to get control of your deck. However, seeing the Ruined Village synergies line up sounds more reasonable when it comes from Death Cart.

7
Other Games / Re: CIVILIZATION VI
« on: January 20, 2018, 10:56:57 pm »
I disagree with that notion. Vanilla Civ 5 took away a bunch of stuff from the complete version of Civ 4 in an effort to streamline the series, then reinvented some concepts through expansions. Vanilla Civ 6 is an outlier in the series, because it reuses most concepts from Civ 5, and adds a few new ones, but a lot of concepts have been dropped throughout the series.

City discontent wasn't a thing in Civ 5, and takes such a different form in Civ 6 I don't know if it qualifies. Forms of governments weren't a thing in Civ 5, and they look very, very different in 6 from previous games. Espionage looks different in pretty much every game. Corporations were only in Civ4. Health was in 4 but not in 5 (housing works similarly to health in 6). City flipping through culture was in 4 but not in 5 (though they are adding something similar in 6:R&F). Units consuming resources were a thing in 5, but not in 6 anymore. Vassals and colonies were only a thing in 4. Corps and armies were a thing in 3, but did not come back until 6, in a different form. The council of nations / UN is not a thing in 6 (though I imagine it will get added in an expansion). And of course, Civ:BE introduced a bunch of stuff that hasn't been reused for 6.

But ok, I might be biased. I started with Civ2 when I was a kid.

I found the civilopedia in 6 to be kinda bad for details, but maybe it's better for explaining concepts?

Oh wow I didn't realise Civ 5 had made all those changes, and I thought Civ 5 was mostly just the one that introduced non-stacking unit mechanics. I played Civ 2 through 4 prior to playing Civ 6. I did feel like base Civ 4 felt like it was missing a few things, but some of that missing stuff got added in expansions (espionage for one, and colonies as well). I did play Civilization: Beyond Earth, but I figured seeing it spin off from earlier entries was to be expected.

It just feels like Civ 6 feels very familiar coming off of Civ 4. I also didn't get far enough to realise the UN is not a thing in Civ 6. I honestly don't remember Civ 3 that much, bit Civ 2 is one my brother played constantly and so is the classic entry for us.

8
Other Games / Re: CIVILIZATION VI
« on: January 20, 2018, 03:27:42 pm »
Civ has a steep learning curve and given past civ tutorials I'm not surprised 6's is terrible.

City population tells you how many hexes can be worked by the city. If you open the city screen you can see each tile produces some resources like food or gold or whatnot. Click a tile to work it, or you can have the city automatically pick tiles to work. Each population point consumes some amount of food. Any food you produce over this amount goes into a bucket. When that bucket fills, you city increases in population and you can work an extra tile, getting more resources, but consuming more food.

The gear resource is production. Your city can also build one thing at a time like a unit or building. Each thing takes a certain amount of gears to complete. The more gears you produce per turn the quicker you finish whatever you are making.

Units and buildings have a gold maintenance cost. You get gold lots of ways but it is another resource you can see in tiles. If you don't produce enough gold you slowly drain your coffee and units will go away until you're in the black. Also gold can be used to directly purchase buildings and units instantly in your cities.

The thing I've noticed with the Civilization series is that much of its iterative growth over each installment has been additive. The way cities work tiles, grow, and produce units/buildings has been roughly the same since the earliest Civilization games. The same is true for elements like income flow and technology advancement. City discontent, forms of government, diplomacy, and espionage are gameplay elements that have been around since Civilization II (though I don't believe a tutorial mode was one of those things). From there they have steadily added additional complexities like culture, great people, religion, civics, more victory conditions, and now in Civilization VI faith and city states.

Very little has been taken out between games I feel. The result is that playing some of the later Civilization games feel daunting if you haven't played the older games. The tutorial for Civilization VI is bad because it seems to strongly assume you've played older Civ games (even when the advisor option is set to "Never played a Civilization game before") and then forces you out of selecting options other than the one it expects you to choose for a very long time, hindering your ability to explore stuff. From what I recall, it has the style of saying "this action will result in this" without explaining the mechanism through which the result is achieved. Plus, can't save your game in the tutorial.

I guess you have to check out the "Civilopedia" to thoroughly learn about a bunch of stuff, including basic stuff like combat mechanics. As you can imagine, the Civilopedia is massive.

9
Artisan should be higher.

My subscription ran out this year and I haven't renewed it yet.  As such I've played more base only games than I normally would.  My biggest surprise was Artisan.  It is superb.  You do can so much from being able to gain/play the action on your current turn or gain a specific action to top deck for next turn.  It combines both engine building and deck control in an extremely elegant way.  This card makes any engine much MUCH better and should not be ignored.

Well, Artisan is better in base only games than it is in full random, because you have all these crazy strong engine components in base but the payload is lacking. Artisan is absolutely bonkers in that environment: if there are strong components to gain for free, Artisan can basically work as payload because it allows you to build very explosively once you're drawing your deck (it's a bit clunky but it's better than nothing). When you have the expansions, the quality of the stuff you gain with Artisan is significantly lower on average and there are usually other, better options for payload.

It still helps you build the deck faster and stuff with the expansions so it's still a useful card, but it's not quite as good.

Base set also has Throne Room. Throne Room on Artisan for two Duchies is a very potent end-game play.

10
Bureacrat's attack is actually really good at shutting down money. Stick a few in a deck and you can get - 1 or -2 card tokens.

Its non-attack part is also really good at shutting down yourself, unless you're also playing money.

A part of me thinks Bureaucrat would be more usable if it didn't topdeck the Silver. Like, take away everything that makes Bandit Camp good and you have Bureaucrat.

11
I would say that Castles become much more worthwhile when you have the flexibility of some Remodel variant available to trash Castles for better Castles or Provinces. Haunted Castle provides 2 6-cost cards in one, and everything above Haunted Castle can be easily converted to Province or other Castles with trash-for-benefit while also giving some VP chips. Opulent Castle is sometimes nice for the on play.

When two players go for Castles or when you are agressively using trash-for-benefit on Castles, Humble Castle is actually one of the more expendable Castles. This is especially true if you are trashing Castles with Small Castle.

12
Spy sucks unless you can pull of some kind of synergy with a card that cares about the order of your deck (or, I guess, your opponent's). For $4 you're often much better off buying a village or draw card (if engine) or Silver (if BM/slog). $4 is not a price point at which you can justify being slightly better than a vanilla cantrip. As weak as Pearl Diver is, at least it has its low price tag going for it.

I think you mean Scavenger instead of Navigator, in which case its extra ability really does make quite a bit of difference. Maybe you're right about Woodcutter (you rarely want to topdeck it anyway), but that's mostly because +Buy is so good. Even then, Bureaucrat isn't that bad. It's one of the weaker $4 cards but it has its uses.

I meant exactly what I said: Chancellor is stronger than Navigator.  You're right that you're usually better off buying another card over Spy, but sometimes Spy is the only innocuous card you can add to your engine at that price point, and it's better than nothing (and decent with Throne Room).  I remember buying Spy all the time.  It was never amazing, but it got bought (which is one of the reasons why it was rightly removed).  I haven't been motivated to buy a Bureaucrat in over a year, maybe longer.

Removing Woodcutter and giving the +buy to Chancellor could have worked I think.

As is, I would open Chancellor on occasion, because the best case scenario where you draw Chancellor on Turn 3 tended to be really good. Now, Messenger lets me live the dream. It's quite convenient how Messenger makes it so you never have to worry about bad reshuffles when played at the end of the action phase.

13
I don't think I'll ever fully understand how Bureaucrat made it to the 2nd edition. It was always talked about the same way as the other base set duds, and there it is next to bottom, right above a card based on the premise that trashing Copper is a bad thing.
It's as simple as, I only replaced 6 cards. Those cards again: Thief, Spy, Chancellor, Woodcutter, Feast, Adventurer.

Power level was not the be-all end-all. People buy Feast; it just doesn't change the game at all. They buy Woodcutter; having
+Buy will do that, but the whole point to the original card was to be simple, and I thought I had enough vanilla cards without it.

Bureaucrat is better-to-have-exist than the replaced cards. And the incentive was to just make the most important changes.

Even just regarding power level, I'd say Bureaucrat is stronger than any of those six cards.

No way.  Spy is actually a decent card power-level wise (I understand the motivation to remove it); stronger than Pearl Diver and Sage.  Chancellor and Woodcutter are also, IMO, stronger than their $4 counterparts (Navigator and Nomad Camp), which have been consistently rated higher than Bureaucrat.

Spy sucks unless you can pull of some kind of synergy with a card that cares about the order of your deck (or, I guess, your opponent's). For $4 you're often much better off buying a village or draw card (if engine) or Silver (if BM/slog). $4 is not a price point at which you can justify being slightly better than a vanilla cantrip. As weak as Pearl Diver is, at least it has its low price tag going for it.

I think you mean Scavenger instead of Navigator, in which case its extra ability really does make quite a bit of difference. Maybe you're right about Woodcutter (you rarely want to topdeck it anyway), but that's mostly because +Buy is so good. Even then, Bureaucrat isn't that bad. It's one of the weaker $4 cards but it has its uses.

The issue I see is that the cases where Bureaucrat is good have taken a hit in power level. All those slog cards like Gardens, Silk Road, and Duke which can benefit from Bureaucrat (but not totally enabled by Bureaucrat mind you) feel weaker now. This is even reflected by the rankings. These slog cards tend to need stronger synergies than Bureaucrat can provide these days.

14
I really like your post, but on top, Id like to emphasize that your statement

play five Groundskeepers and Estates become Provinces.   

even underestimates Groundskeeper. The truth is, Estate+5VP is way better than a province, because you can trash that estate and keep your deck thin.

You can also replace the Estate with another Estate using cards like Remodel and still get VP equal to your number of in-play Groundskeepers.

15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« on: January 18, 2018, 07:46:07 am »
Harbinger is probably better if you play a lot of games with just the 2e Base set, because then it will show up a lot with Vassal, with which it has a genuine synergy.

With Vassal, Harbinger works well because it does something useful even if it only topdecks another cantrip, for example another Harbinger. It is a bit of a shame how so few cards interact with the top of the deck, or at least interact with it nonterminally.

16
Hearthstone / Re: Tavern Brawl Discussion
« on: January 18, 2018, 07:16:12 am »
This week's Brawl takes a bunch of decks seen in past tournaments and puts them against each other, with you getting a random one. The kicker is that the decks are in their unnerfed form. You can relive the glory of unnerfed Undertaker in Deathrattle Zoo with 2/1 Leper Gnome and Abusive Sergeant.

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Public card translation resources
« on: January 17, 2018, 10:39:04 pm »
The Japanese text currently on the Wiki was retrieved by me using optical character recognition (OCR) tools on the Dominion Online game client itself, making the necessary corrections whenever the OCR made mistakes.

I do not know where or how the text is stored for Dominion Online. I'm guessing it's either saved somewhere in the online client's database or they were typed directly onto the card image templates.

For the record, I believe the user majiponi did the Japanese translation for Dominion Online.

18
Dominion General Discussion / Re: $3 Cost Card Rankings Bottom Half
« on: January 17, 2018, 06:05:50 pm »
I think it's only somewhat better than Pearl Diver, and that was ranked one of the worst $2 cards.

I actually think Pearl Diver is better (even if you ignore cost, that is).

When you're a cantrip declared worse than the archetypal "do nothing" cantrip is when you know you really have problems.

19
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

But it forces that antisynergy onto the opponent as well with its junking and handsize attack. I do find myself in situations where I really don't want it sometimes, but you can't be too hipster and always insist on skipping Followers.

Handsize attacks don't make it harder to fire Tournament though. Junking does, but you junk yourself too. The VP swing isn't too helpful unless you're on a very sloggy board where tournament isn't as powerful and terminal draw sucks.

It can if the person being attacked has either Province of Tournament in hand but not the other. Keeping Province increases the risk of stall, and keeping Tournament risks having them get blocked and having a completely dead turn.

In the presence of trashing, the player with Followers has a slightly easier time trashing the Followers junk thanks to having the +2 cards off Followers and not starting with a 3-card hand.

The VP swing might not always matter, but sometime you might end up slacking on proper engine building to actually get the prize you want first. Getting a bunch of Tournaments is not equivalent to having an engine, especially if the Tournaments start getting blocked. At that point, you have something of a slog.

...

At the point you get the first prize, you are either already in a super-trim state and lined up your T and P because of that, in which case you probably want Princess, or you lined up by volume of Ts in what will then be a slightly messy cantrippy deck that you haven't transitioned into an engine yet, in which case terminal draw is nails for you, the self-junking kills your transition to engine, and you really would prefer Trusty Steed to help you transition to engine. The latter situation is probably better for Followers, as the long, junky game you will then get makes the VP advantage it gives more potent, but your opponent will then probably get Trusty Steed and may well be able to cycle faster and deal with his curses better than you can deal with your estates. That is the other big drawback of Followers compared with Princess. When Princess is good, the consolation prize your opponent gets is a Trusty Steed they don't really need or a Followers you can deal with. When Followers is good, the consolation prize is a Trusty Steed that will be nearly as good as Followers.

This is an interesting way to look at things. I think we can agree that Princess is excellent in the games where you expect to have a good engine coming together soon if it is not already running. I'd just like to add that in the messy cantrip deck, Princess often finds itself being little to no better than a terminal Silver, making Princess's power level very variable. In games where the attack of Followers matters, the other player can't really do much with Princess.

In general, the top three prizes are all rather situational, but usually at least one of them is super good, so you go for Tournament most of the time.

20
I still think Princess is strongest, cost reduction is just that amazing.

I'm surprised it didn't get more votes for first place, having only four of them.

21
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

But it forces that antisynergy onto the opponent as well with its junking and handsize attack. I do find myself in situations where I really don't want it sometimes, but you can't be too hipster and always insist on skipping Followers.

Handsize attacks don't make it harder to fire Tournament though. Junking does, but you junk yourself too. The VP swing isn't too helpful unless you're on a very sloggy board where tournament isn't as powerful and terminal draw sucks.

It can if the person being attacked has either Province of Tournament in hand but not the other. Keeping Province increases the risk of stall, and keeping Tournament risks having them get blocked and having a completely dead turn.

In the presence of trashing, the player with Followers has a slightly easier time trashing the Followers junk thanks to having the +2 cards off Followers and not starting with a 3-card hand.

The VP swing might not always matter, but sometime you might end up slacking on proper engine building to actually get the prize you want first. Getting a bunch of Tournaments is not equivalent to having an engine, especially if the Tournaments start getting blocked. At that point, you have something of a slog.

22
The problem with Followers is that, though a strong card in its own right (it would surely cost $7+ in the supply), it has a huge antisynergy with Tournament.

But it forces that antisynergy onto the opponent as well with its junking and handsize attack. I do find myself in situations where I really don't want it sometimes, but you can't be too hipster and always insist on skipping Followers.

23
Below are the results of the Tournament Prizes rankings for the 2017 Edition of the Dominion Cards Lists 2017 organized by Qvist. The results are based on votes from 28 people. Keep in mind that these rankings reflect the strength of the Prizes relative to each other, and not their strength overall, as well as remembering that all of these prizes only exist in the context of other prizes being present in the kingdom.

Let's begin.

The Best Prizes

#5 =0 Bag of Gold
Weighted Average: 12.0% ▲2.5pp
Unweighted Average: 10.7%
Median: 0% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 12.4%

Bag of Gold saw a slight increase in its average, but still finds itself in last place. It has the lowest standard deviation of the Prizes and 16 votes for last place, with the rest voting it second last place.

While the Gold it topdecks can come in handy to buy Provinces to end the game, the Gold can still get in the way of you finding the cards that allow more fancy things to happen. It also happens to compete with Duchy when the game is reaching its conclusion. Perhaps there is more appreciated for Gold gainers these days to explain its slight increase in average. Even then, there is still the issue that Bag of Gold comes into effect later in the game than you'd normally hope.
#4 =0 Diadem
Weighted Average: 13.2% ▼2.5pp
Unweighted Average: 15.2%
Median: 25% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 13.9%

Paired with the rise in Bag of Gold's average, the drop in Diadem's average made for a close contest for the #4 spot. It has the remaining 12 votes for last place, with the rest voting it second last place just like we have with Bag of Gold.

There are some conceivable cases where the absurd amount of +actions that can be accumulated makes Diadem a top pick, but it's incredibly rare for these scenarios to arise in practice. In the common scenario, Diadem is something you get when you need the coin it produces to buy one of the remaining few Provinces. Diadem nets you fewer stop cards when you want to use it for cash compared to Bag of Gold, but it doesn't work well with trash for benefit the way Gold tends to.
#3 =0 Princess
Weighted Average: 66.0% ▲3.3pp
Unweighted Average: 64.3%
Median: 50% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 19.4%

After an enormous jump of over 50% in average, we find Princess sitting at the #3 spot. It received only a modest increase in its average from last year. It has the largest standard deviation in this list by a very small margin and has four votes for first place.

As far as payload goes, few cards compare with Princess. Princess helps immensely in creating double Province turns even with no other available sources of +buy, and it enables massive gains when other +buy or similar effects are available. And yet, it's only ranked third place among the five prizes. In English, we have a saying that goes, Don't put the carriage before the horse. As great as Princess can be, it doesn't save a dud hand. A deck that can use Princess to the fullest might be too far away if you had to spend a bunch of time rushing for Tournaments and Provinces just to get Princess in the first place.
#2 =0 Trusty Steed
Weighted Average: 75.9% ▼3.4pp
Unweighted Average: 72.3%
Median: 75% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 19.3%

Despite the slight drop in average, Trusty Steed still has a comfortable lead over Princess for second place. It has the second highest standard deviation in this list and has seven votes for first place.

Introducing the horse. Those who can't shake the habit of picking +1 Card +1 Action from Pawn will be happy to know that the +2 Card +2 Action option for Trusty Steed is generally a solid play, and even helps you connect more Tournaments with Provinces. Sometimes you don't need the draw or the actions, or the coins guarantee something important, so you take the coins option. The Silver gaining option is a bit messy, but it has its uses and some special synergies. All in all, Trusty Steed is the all-around good card of the Prize bunch.
#1 =0 Followers
Weighted Average: 83.0% ▲0.2pp
Unweighted Average: 87.5%
Median: 100% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 17.0%

Solidly maintaining its place at the top of the Prize list is Followers. This card has the biggest disagreement between the unweighted average and the weighted average. It has 17 votes for first place.

Some games don't feature good ways of dealing with small hand sizes. In such games, getting the only discard attack in the form of Followers gives you a major advantage. At the same time, you distribute stop cards to both decks and draw some cards yourself. The distribution of Curses and Estates drives the game closer to being a slog, which is convenient for you if you are the one playing Followers considering the 2VP net increase you gain over your opponents every time it's played. Remember that wins you games of Dominion is not making your deck better, but making your deck better than the one your opponents have.

Thank you Qvist for organizing the Dominion Card List all these years. It was lengthy, but still fun to get a taste of having to do the results writeups.

24
Below are the results of the Knights rankings for the 2017 Edition of the Dominion Cards Lists 2017 organized by Qvist. The results are based on votes from 24 people. Keep in mind that these rankings reflect the strength of the Knights relative to each other, and not the strength of Knights overall. Also consider that every Knight only appears in the context of every other Knight being in the kingdom (except when Black Market is involved).

Let's begin.

The Best Knights


#10 =0 Dame Josephine
Weighted Average: 1.4% ▼6.4pp
Unweighted Average: 1.9%
Median: 0% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 6.9%

Things could hardly be worse for Dame Josephine. It was already in last place last year, but it still managed to lose 6.4pp and has the lowest standard deviation among the Knights. Only two people didn't vote it for last place.

The problem with Dame Josephine is that only gives an additional bonus if the game ends without it being trashed, except it's a Knight, meaning it always appears with other Knights and it is likely to find itself trashed in a Knight war. All for a paltry reward of 2VP if it happens to survive, less than Duchy at the same price point. Dame Josephine's existence supports the notion that the additional bonuses on the Knights matter. You are really biting a bullet when you have to gain Dame Josephine as the top-most Knight.
#9 =0 Sir Martin
Weighted Average: 23.2% ▲2.9pp
Unweighted Average: 25.5%
Median: 22.2% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 15.5%

Sir Martin saw a slight increase in its average, but otherwise stays at the same spot as last year. It has no votes for last place oddly enough. The jump in average from Dame Josephine to Sir Martin is also the largest one in the list.

A Knight that gives not one, but two + Buys and it only costs ? How can Sir Martin possibly be this low? Well I'll tell you, the + Buys have trouble lining up with a hand that produces enough coin to make use of it in games that involve Knights, whether that's because the Knights keep trashing your cards or because you bought a whole bunch of Knights instead of economy. If somehow the extra buys do happen to be very powerful on a specific board, you can bet it will get trashed by other Knights at some point. It might as well be a vanilla Knight for the most part, except it costs , so it has that over Dame Josephine.
#8 =0 Sir Vander
Weighted Average: 30.2% ▲8.7pp
Unweighted Average: 29.6%
Median: 22.2% ▲11.1pp
Standard Deviation: 23.1%

Sir Vander saw the second biggest increase in its average, but still stays at the same rank. It has the highest standard deviation among the Knights and has one vote for last place.

Contrary to Dame Josephine, Sir Vander has a bonus that only takes effect if it does get trashed. Gaining a Gold for your efforts doesn't seem like much, but the Gold can do a few nice things for you, like helping you afford another Knight to replace Sir Vander. The Gold saves you a bit of recovery time if you've begun to be bombarded by Knights. Sir Vander works okay for this purpose even if it's one of the first Knights you get. Maybe there is more appreciation for Gold these days that explains the improvement in its average, or for tempo in general.
#7 ▼1 Dame Sylvia
Weighted Average: 36.0% ▼10.8pp
Unweighted Average: 40.7%
Median: 33.3% ▼11.1pp
Standard Deviation: 18.9%

The 2016 Dominion card list saw no change in any placement of the Knights, but this year we have Dame Sylvia as the biggest loser which has resulted in a new ordering for the Knights and upsetting the Knights ranking stagnation. It dropped one rank and 10.8pp.

There is nothing bad to say about Dame Sylvia, really.  The + bonus is useful for when you need to hit important price points, say for buying Province or for buying more Knights. It just so happens that the other Knights above Dame Sylvia in rank also have good bonuses to go along with them.
#6 ▲1 Dame Natalie
Weighted Average: 47.8% ▲16.9pp
Unweighted Average: 42.6%
Median: 44.4% ▲22.2pp
Standard Deviation: 20.5%

Swapping places with Dame Sylvia is Dame Natalie. Dame Natalie is the big winner this year, with a 16.9pp increase in its average. It did get the other last place vote that didn't go to Dame Josephine.

You can conceive of situations where you'd buy a terminal that was just a Workshop but for cards up to . You might imagine the scenario where Dame Natalie acts as an awesome gainer that helps your engine get its pieces just fast enough for it to triumph, but honestly just gaining a Silver with Dame Natalie is already convenient enough to help counteract all the cards you could be losing to opposing Knights.
#5 =0 Sir Destry
Weighted Average: 53.2% ▼0.9pp
Unweighted Average: 50.0%
Median: 55.6% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 17.9%

Sir Destry hasn't moved much. Fun fact, it's unweighted average rounds out to 50.0%.

Playing lots of Knights in a Knights game is kind of a big deal, and Sir Destry's draw helps you find more Knights to do just that. The draw is also handy for helping you find the cards that help you accomplish the thing you wish you could do more easily if it weren't for those dang Knights. Drawing cards tends to be more valued in a deck than generating coin, as people who have built engines with Moat as draw might attest.
#4 =0 Dame Molly
Weighted Average: 59.2% ▼5.8pp
Unweighted Average: 60.7%
Median: 66.7% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 19.2%

Dame Molly saw its average drop a bit, but its lead over Sir Destry is still comfortable enough.

Dame Molly's bonus of giving +2 actions is quite handy. Despite not drawing any cards, Dame Molly can still help prevent whatever engine you might have cobbled together in the face of Knights from stalling too hard. Dame Molly can also help you play more payload cards than you could otherwise. Notably, this includes other Knights. The additional actions it gives might be inconsequential early on when it doesn't collide with any other actions, but often you hope that it will stick around for a bit before getting trashed.
#3 =0 Sir Michael
Weighted Average: 68.4% ▼8.3pp
Unweighted Average: 72.2%
Median: 77.8% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 21.3%

Sir Michael has the second biggest drop in its average, along with the second highest standard deviation of the Knights. To its credit, it is the first Knight to appear on the list with a vote for first place. It has three first place votes in total.

Sir Michael doesn't give any positive benefit to the one playing it, but the discard attack still makes it very desirable. The classic Militia is great for preventing early hands from reaching and for giving money-centric decks a really hard time gaining the last few Provinces and closing out the game. Slap that onto a Knight, whose presence makes the price point critical and the Knight trashing attack that eats through Silver and Gold, and you've got a very scary threat that is difficult to overcome without an engine.
#2 =0 Sir Bailey
Weighted Average: 85.4% ▲5.3pp
Unweighted Average: 82.9%
Median: 88.9% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 13.2%

After a string of averages that dropped, we finally meet Sir Bailey, a Knight in the Top 5 whose average has increased. The jump between Sir Michael and Sir Bailey is also the second biggest one in the list. Sir Bailey has three votes for first place as well.

Sir Bailey's bonus is replacing itself in your hand without costing an action. When you think about it, it's not hard to understand why it has ranked so high. Letting an opponent gain Sir Bailey and doing nothing about it makes it so that you opponent only gives up one turn in order to undo what you gain in several of your turns across the entire game. Sir Bailey is all the more dangerous if its in an engine deck that plays it a bunch. Not attempting to rid an opponent of an early Sir Bailey is a dangerous proposition.
#1 =0 Dame Anna
Weighted Average: 95.3% ▼1.6pp
Unweighted Average: 90.4%
Median: 100% =0pp
Standard Deviation: 13.2%

At the top of the Knights list is the notorious Dame Anna once again, with a convincing lead over Sir Bailey despite a slight drop in average score. It has 18 votes for first place.

Even trashing just a couple of junk cards from one's own deck with Dame Anna's additional bonus before losing it to another Knight can have a dramatic influence on the game. Trashing junk cards is one of the strongest effects in Dominion, and getting to do so early enough with Dame Anna has a cascading effect that results in an effective engine and/or Knight army coming online considerably sooner. The advantage becomes even more pronounced if the available trashing on board is otherwise poor. Having a player open with Dame Anna is especially frustrating.

Thank you Qvist for organizing the Dominion Card List all these years. Writing up this sub-list gives me new appreciation for what you do.

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Junk Dealer is a more convenient trashed, but it can be something of a dead card while Sentry still does a half-Cartographer effect. Upgrade trashes worse than Junk Dealer, but sometimes the "upgrade" part of it can be used to good effect.

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