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Messages - Indur

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I would just like to add my 2 cents:

2p vs 3p or 4p:
I feel that the only way to (try to) determine the best Dominion player in a real-life setting is via 2p games. In 3p or 4p it's simply not possible to play enough games in a day to filter out the (much bigger) luck factor.

Qualifiers
To my mind, it has become clear that there are not enough players in the Netherlands and Belgium to hold live qualifiers. Maybe this will change in the future, maybe it won't.
I for one would like to see a Championship that is open to all, instead of a small gathering of players who qualified in online prelims. Because of the unknown number of players who show up this could mean having a number of rounds with a knock-out system instead of round-robin or Swiss. That's not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion; it's something that happens in a lot of tournaments, from tennis to chess, from Magic to soccer. A nice thing about a real-life tournament is meeting fellow players; if you're knocked out of the main event, you can just start up a game with some people you might have only met online.

An added possibility is organizing tournaments (either online or live) where people can earn byes for the first round (or couple of rounds).

Material
Material only seems to be a problem if we want to have the same board on each table during a round. Maybe we just have to accept that this is not feasible.
 

2
Tournaments and Events / Re: Dominion Team World Cup Signup
« on: November 04, 2013, 05:42:46 am »
Goko username: Indur
Nationality: Dutch

All sets + some promos (Black Market/Stash).


4
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom II: Round 6 Discussion Thread
« on: September 23, 2013, 04:11:49 am »
Indur - Zporiri: 4-2

1 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379881844128.txt
Transmute, Beggar, Scrying Pool, Lookout, Oasis, Alchemist, Remodel, Spice Merchant, Young Witch, Mandarin, Forge, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Potion
Bane card: Lookout

I buy too many Scrying Pools (keep drawing my deck with 2 to spare in the last few turns); he uses Forge to great effect to gain a lot of Provinces. I can't overtake him. Score: 21-28

2 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379882480433.txt
Steward, Wishing Well, Workshop, Coppersmith, Farming Village, Marauder, Remodel, Spy, Taxman, Harem, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Ruins

I like my opening of Steward/Marauder more than his Steward/Workshop. The spoils help me buy gold, while also acquiring a second steward and a Farming Village (I've kept my Necropolis), while my opponent stocks up on farming villages, Taxmen and wishing wells. Each time he has 6 he buys Harems. Intriguing move. I start buying Provinces starting turn 12 and never lose my lead. Score: 46-27

3 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379883278540.txt
Sage, Scheme, Village, Workshop, Trader, Council Room, Explorer, Mandarin, Border Village, King's Court, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse

Interesting board, with great potential for both an engine and Big Money (both of which are helped by KC-Scheme). We both start 5-2. I open nothing/Explorer, then Silver into Mandarin into Border Village/Council Room, thinking Council Room right from the start helps my opponent too much. He opens nothing/Council Room into Workshop into Scheme. He starts building an Engine while I try my luck with a weird hybrid, using KC-Explorer for instance. I begin buying Provinces early (turn 8 ), thinking I don't want to give him too much time to perfect his engine, and knowing that his 2 Council Rooms will help me make my $8 hands.
Provinces for me turns 8, 9, 10 and 11 and I feel like I'm golden, but his deck with lots of schemes, KC, CR and Mandarins can produce huge amounts of money all of a sudden. Still, he falls just short of ending with a win on turn 12 (!) And I can KC-Eplorer with a province in hand to buy the last 2 provinces. Score: 39-18

4 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379884149737.txt
Poor House, Moat, Trade Route, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Marauder, Plaza, Rats, Mountebank, Venture, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Ruins

I forget to open Horse Traders; my opponent buys Mountebanks turn 3, 4 and 5 and I don't have a chance. I resign. Score: 11-40

5 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379884614508.txt
Fool's Gold, Ambassador, Market Square, Spice Merchant, Apprentice, Ghost Ship, Horn of Plenty, Minion, Rebuild, Vault, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse

This game really revolved around Ambassador and Rebuild (well duh). I picked up a Spice Merchant along the way, which helped me deal with the coppers I got passed. My third Rebuild, shuffle luck and the fact that he named the wrong victory card in the endgame helped me win. Score: 23-18

6 http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130922/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1379885807527.txt
Transmute, Herbalist, Lookout, Swindler, Caravan, Coppersmith, Salvager, Worker's Village, Knights, Nobles, Copper, Silver, Gold, Estate, Duchy, Province, Curse, Potion

My head's still spinning from this one (and we played this game last night). I got some horrible horrible luck (5 Curses and 2 Coppersmiths from Swindler), and feel like I've lost the game. We play on, and his batch of Nobles enables him to draw his deck practically every turn, and giving him a decent point lead. My knights, however, start eating at his slim deck, slowly deteriorating it. He stalls in the last turns of the game, allowing me to salvage a Nobles into the last Province for a 1 point win. We were both really surprised here. I think maybe extra Knights would have helped him keep my deck in check, while also working towards a 3-pile ending of Knight/Nobles/Curses. Score: 38-37.

Fun series, mostly. I feel I played game 1 badly and have my doubts about my Explorer opening in game 3, but otherwise feel I played alright.
Thanks for the games Zporiri.

7
Tournaments and Events / Re: Dutch/Belgian Championship tournament report
« on: September 09, 2013, 03:12:10 am »
Nice report Jeroen! And posted very quickly :)

Small additions: I think you have the first and second rounds mixed up. I'm pretty sure the Native Village/Bridge combo was the first match.
In our match I'm pretty sure I bought 3 lighthouses pretty early (I ended up with 5), twice drawing two right before the reshuffle; but what I think decided this match was your first Swindler hitting mine, especially because I couldn't get to 5 money because of it. Regardless, I think you built the better deck. Nice playing you in real life.

8
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom II: Round 4 Discussion Thread
« on: September 07, 2013, 11:09:28 am »
Indur vs. SirSlugma: 3.5 - 1.5

Some nice games, 1 boring (but very short) game, and one kingdom that was awesome, but terribly hard.

Short rundown.

1 Start: SirSlugma http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130907/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1378560474923.txt
Loan, Shanty Town, Urchin, Baron, Bureaucrat, Quarry, City, Merchant Guild, Merchant Ship, Torturer

His opening of Shanty Town/Urchin/Urchin surprised me. Then again, my Urchin/Urchin/Urchin doesn't get me a Merc until turn 6, to his turn 5.
Rest of the game is pretty much a torturer battle until the curses run out. I go for Cities earlier than my opponent (he buys a first Province turn 17), and use my Mercenaries to turn curses into money into provinces on turns 18, 19, 20, 21 and 22. He tries to set up a megaturn with Merchant Guild, but doesn't have enough buys to overtake my lead.

1-0

2 Start: Indur http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130907/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1378560891131.txt
Native Village, Chancellor, Scheme, Moneylender, Noble Brigand, Scout, City, Embassy, Mandarin, Mystic

Easily the most boring game of the match. I open 5/2 and, with no extra buys on the board, decide to go for Embassy big money right away, even though the silver will really help my opponent. I draw pretty well and buy gold on turns 4, 5 and 6. His second Embassy can't compete with my extra gold and silver.

2-0.

3 Start: Indur http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130907/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1378561325539.txt
Chapel, Loan, Masquerade, Workshop, Bishop, Caravan, Remake, Remodel, Junk Dealer, Saboteur

Quite an interesting board, what with 8 kingdom cards that trash!
I decide to skip Chapel and open Masq/Silver. Opponent has 5/2 and goes for Masq/Chapel. Interesting! I scoop up an early Gold and a second Masquerade and some more Gold while he thins his deck and buys only some money before starting greening early; getting him a big lead. After turn 12 we both have 3 provinces and he has 2 Duchies to go with them. I decide to break PPR, both because a tie is not good enough for me as starting player, and I feel his deck is light on money. To do this I play masquerade, having to pass another one across the table to still reach 8. Ouch! Still I have good hopes. Then I draw a terrible hand of Province/Province/Silver/Silver/Gold, which means I have to pass him a silver when he plays Masquerade; dramatically increasing his chance of hitting 8. His masquerade apparently doesn't draw him enough to buy a province without passing me a Duchy, thus making it a tie. I'm not sure whether that was the best play here (especially if you're 2-0 behind in a tournament match). What do you think?

2.5-0.5

4 Start: SirSlugma: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130907/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1378562349551.txt
University, Armory, Gardens, JackOfAllTrades, Nomad Camp, Band of Misfits, Cartographer, Stables, Adventurer, Possession

Interesting game I thought I had clinched, but which managed to just elude me in the last turn.
Opponent goes for University, which I thought was too slow. My 5/2 is not very good here, and I go for Band of Misfits, thinking to go straight for double Jack. I take a big lead in points, while he is sculpting his deck, picking up all 10 Stables and lots of cartographers. His first Possession hits a hand of Province/Province/Province/Copper/Copper, and I think I'm golden. However his Gardens steadily pick up value, and the one hand I have with 8 in the last couple of turns is Possessed away. His last turn he manages to hit 13, the extra Duchy giving him the 3 point lead and the win. I have a feeling I could have played this somewhat better, but grats to my opponent for going for this cool deck and winning with it!

2.5-1.5

5 Start: SirSlugma: http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130907/log.5064086b0cf20d995bd2b5eb.1378563259628.txt
Secret Chamber, Stonemason, Scrying Pool, Hermit, Tunnel, Alchemist, Marauder, Remake, Bandit Camp

Really an awesome kingdom here, with quite a lot going for it. No +buys (well, maybe deeper in the Ruins pile), but Stonemason for shenanigans galore.
My opponent thought Scrying Pools would be too slow and opts to go for Silver/Remake. I feel like there is an engine in there that is good enough, and go for it. I'm lucky and hit 4P three times for lots of Scrying Pools and some stonemasons. Meanwhile, he stacks up on Nobles and Bandit Camps and again starts buying Provinces early.

Due to the lack of buys, and the fact that he has lots on Nobles, making it hard to rush provinces, I have to resort to an exotic engine that I really liked, generating Gold with Tunnels (via Scrying Pool/Secret Chamber) and Stonemasoning them into Duchies, while hitting 8 pretty much every turn. He tries to keep up buying/gaining lots of Nobles and Tunnels through Stonemason, but stays stuck at 2 provinces, sealing the deal.

I'm pretty sure we both played this one suboptimal, what with all the options available. Any thoughts on our decks?
Interesting side note: if the top Ruins had been the +buy one I might have opened Potion/Ruins here! :)

3.5-1.5

Thanks SirSlugma for the nice and pretty tense matches and for accommodating to my schedule. Good luck in the rest of the tournament.

11
Tournaments and Events / Re: International Dominion Team World Cup
« on: July 26, 2013, 03:42:47 am »
First off: cool idea. I would definately like to play (I'm from the Netherlands).

Some thoughts:
  • If the time schedule goes forward as proposed, won't it interfere with the new GokoDom tournament, which will start on August 9th?
  • I haven't really heard any good arguments against having multiple teams per country. I think small teams (3-5) is better, since rounds won't take as long and it will be easier for countries with a small number of Goko players to get a team together.
  • One of the things I dislike about international tournaments is the time difference. Maybe we can have initial pairings based (somewhat) on time zones.

And a hopeful note: if national championships ever become somewhat big, we can seed the national teams based on NC results. I realize that Goko rating probably gives a better estimate of players' skills, but this will really give the teams a more patriottic background :)

12
GokoDom / Re: GokoDom II: Suntastic Summerish Season Signups Sthread
« on: July 18, 2013, 03:27:25 am »
I'm in!

13
Dominion World Masters / Re: Dutch Championships 2013
« on: June 13, 2013, 07:22:07 am »
Hoi Stef,

Goed dat je het zegt; ik had de thread op bordspelmania.eu gemist waar dit werd verteld. Dan moet ik nog eens nadenken of ik zondag meedoe :)

Wat betreft de toernooiopzet:
Als de prijs bestaat uit byes (dus autowins de eerste x ronden van het hoofdtoernooi) i.p.v. plaatsing is het verschil voor de mensen die aan de voorrondes meedoen niet zo groot. Het voornaamste verschil zit hem dan in het feit dat er een aantal ronden extra gespeeld moeten worden tijdens het hoofdtoernooi. Dit is meteen het grootste nadeel; zeker als je 1 tegen 1 wil spelen.

Mijn ervaring komt vooral uit de Magic-wereld, waar
- meer mensen aan meedoen en
- mensen hun eigen materiaal meebrengen.

Ik denk in ieder geval dat de opzet zoals die nu gehanteerd wordt een stuk beter is dan vorig jaar.



14
Dominion World Masters / Re: Dutch Championships 2013
« on: June 12, 2013, 09:27:54 am »
Ik ben er ook bij. Zie jullie daar.  :D

Wat betreft het format met voorrondes denk ik dat Dominion veel te klein is om om deze manier de finale te seeden. Tijdens het NK zijn er vast ook mensen op de beurs die het leuk hadden gevonden om mee te spelen; dat kan nu niet.
Ik zie meer in voorrondes waar je byes kan verdienen voor het hoofdtoernooi.

Enige voordeel dat ik hierin zie is dat de organisatie veel minder materiaal nodig heeft, omdat er nooit 50+ mensen aan een en hetzelfde toernooi meedoen.



15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: IRL Dominion tournament (poll)
« on: April 10, 2013, 10:52:30 am »
Ofcourse highly depends on the date, but I would strongly consider showing up. Excellent initiative :D

16
Here's my storage solution. Right now, it contains everything except Alchemy and Guilds, but they will fit as well.

What I've done is use two large 4-ring Magic: the Gathering binders, duct-taped together.


I prefer the 9-pocket sleeves over rows of cards with dividers. While compact when shut, the opened binders provide easy access to all cards. Treasure cards are kept in place against the spine of the binder (also using duct-tape).


Victory, Curse, Ruin and special treasure cards are located at the back.

18
Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet to be organized Dutch tournament
« on: September 05, 2012, 09:50:09 am »
Time in a round
With regards to the time limitation, I would like to add the following:

In 2p games, I think we could set the time limit at 30 minutes, with a warning after this time has elapsed, and 5 additional minutes (or so) where players can race to the most points. Most points after 35 minutes wins.

This is a bit different from the way of playing until 3 piles or provinces/colonies run out, but it does not really reduce the skill level needed (increases it, I would guess). I think it is not unreasonable to use such a rule in organized play.

pro: all matches are over after 35 minutes, enabling way more games in a day.
con: new element to the game that is new and unknown, and changes endgames in certain situations.



Rounds in a day
Just as a comparison: Magic tournaments always start at 11:00 and last a certain number of Swiss rounds, followed by 'top-8', consisting of three rounds of knock-out (quarter-finals, semi-finals, finals). The number of Swiss rounds is determined by the number of players, and is chosen to ensure that everyone with one loss or better in the Swiss part of the tournament is in the top-8:

# players   # rounds
8              3 rounds
9-16          4 rounds
17-32        5 rounds
33-64        6 rounds
etc.

6 rounds + top-8 means 9 rounds of play. This can be done in a day, albeit a long one. Still, I would prefer a tournament running from 11:00 till 20:00 with a clear victor over a shorter tournament with either no knock-out phase or a separate finals-day.

On randomness in determining the best player
There is quite some chance in a game of Dominion. Much more than in (for instance) Magic. And even there, rounds are always best-of-three (enabled by the fact that a typical Magic game is shorter than a typical Dominion game). This means that for a match between two players to reliably turn out the better player as the winner a large number of games should be played.

However, I feel that for a Real Life tournament, issues of organisation weigh heavier than trying to achieve this goal. I say: let online Dominion be used to determine the best player overall, and let real life Dominion have its share of luck.

Yes, this can result in the winner not being the best player, but at the outset the best player will still have the largest chance of winning.

I'm interested in your thoughts.

p.s. I guess the results of this discussion will probably be useful for players in other countries, but I doubt they will continue reading this page. Shall we continue in Dutch?


19
Tournaments and Events / Re: Yet to be organized Dutch tournament
« on: September 04, 2012, 09:36:40 am »
Some quick thoughts from behind my work computer:

1)
Most important IMO would be the 2p vs 3p debate (I would say definately no 4p, and byes for the 1 or 2 players who can't compete because of rounding-to-3-issues). This directly influences issues like
venue (more room is needed for 2p tournaments),
duration (2p games last much shorter),
pairing system (Swiss only works for 2p, so you can use standard software for the pairings; 3p will problably have to be done manually, taking up time between rounds) and
material (3p games need less material, but still more than organisers can round up without help from participants)

2)
A multy-day tournament sounds like a no-go to me, because of scheduling issues, venue cost, etc, but I'm not against it, personally.

3)
Ruud, I'd be happy to run you through the swiss pairing system someday, but for a quick overview I recommend the wikipedia page.

4)
Has a 'bring your own kingdom' like approach been tried before? Or something like that? It would really help with the material issue. Kind of like decks players bring with them to certain Magic tournaments.

More later, but feel free to shoot at my thoughts :)

Steven

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