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Rules Questions / Re: Noble Brigand: Do Its Attack - gain the trashed cards?
« on: August 07, 2021, 02:22:32 am »
Yes it is.
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Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 23, 2021, 02:37:57 pm »
Interesting. So they get their turn while you resolve Visit? And how are they affected by attacks, are they affected at all?
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Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 22, 2021, 04:41:28 pm »
In my understanding, Relatives are full players the moment Visit is in the Supply, and take turns from the start of the game. Visit just grants them extra turns.
But I see that the interpretation that they only take turns when a Visit was played is also very compelling.
But I see that the interpretation that they only take turns when a Visit was played is also very compelling.
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Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 22, 2021, 01:25:41 pm »Sure they pass cards (if they have some in hand), why wouldn't they?
I don't think this is right. Masquerade passes cards to the "next player"; the Relative isn't a player.
What do you think the relative is, for the game rules? It isn't spelled out on the card, but what other interpretation is there than that it is a fake player that is controlled by you (just as you control another player during a Possession turn). If it isn't a player, what is the phrase "You play for them,..." supposed to mean?
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Rules Questions / Re: Visit (2017 Holiday Kingdom) + Masquerade?
« on: July 22, 2021, 12:51:42 pm »
Sure they pass cards (if they have some in hand), why wouldn't they?
And player order is of course relevant for many things, not jut Masquerade. The details are not mentioned on the card, so that has to be decided by the "real" players.
And player order is of course relevant for many things, not jut Masquerade. The details are not mentioned on the card, so that has to be decided by the "real" players.
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Rules Questions / Re: The new rule for playing cards: A card's own play ability
« on: July 13, 2021, 05:02:04 am »
I'd say you still fully resolve it. The main point of the new rule is that the effect that plays the Crown can "find" it in order to (usually) put it into play. This has happenend in the example. That it is then gone relatively fast is IMO of no consequence.
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Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Rank no longer updating?
« on: June 24, 2021, 02:30:18 am »
Sorry for my lack of response in time. This was a new kind of problem, where a restart of the relevant server/service did not last for 1-2 month, as before, but just 5-10 minutes, as the developer said. This seems to be fixed now since the last ca. 40+h, and the hope is that this will again prove to be stable.
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Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: June 14, 2021, 03:21:29 am »I had an interesting case crop up last week where Way of the Mouse was in the kingdom and its card was Cargo Ship. Presumably if I play a village and then two different cards (say two copies of Pawn) in one turn, each as Way of the Mouse (Cargo Ship) and later in the turn gain a card to store on a Cargo Ship, I would pick one of the two different Pawns to put it on, and it would stay in play but the other one wouldn't?
Right. If it was real Cargo Ships you played, one would have stayed out, the other would have been discarded during Cleanup. That's exactly what happens to the Pawns, one stays out, one gets discarded. So its version (2) of what AJD said.
For similar cards like Overlord or Band of Misfits that helps with the tracking, you only need to remember what you played with them, but don't need to remember if you played the exact same copy of a card twice, or different copies. Say you use 2 Overlords to play Gear, and at Cleanup you see you have a Workshop played between them, but don't remember what you gained with that Workshop. Using version (2) makes sure you don't need to know if it was a Gear or not, the Overlords stay in play or are discarded only based on what their play did. So the Overlord(s) with cards under them stay in play, if no cards are under them, they are discarded. Note this gets more complicated if an Overlord is played mutliple times.
Note that this has nothing to do with Throne Room and similar cards. "Play but leave it there" cards (like Overlord, Necromancer or cards played using Way of the Mouse) follow another set of rules, as AJD explained.
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Rules Questions / Re: Someone else's Inheritance
« on: June 11, 2021, 04:30:56 am »
Inheritance: Event, $7
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")
(b) happens.
Your Inheritance effect gives the same ability to all Estates on your turns, but when your opponent plays one of theirs in the way you described, the "your" in the ability refers to them, not you. So if they inherited something themselves, the Estate will play that card. If not, the effect will do nothing, as there is no such card as required.
Once per game: Set aside a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $4. Move your Estate token to it. (During your turns, Estates are also Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")
(b) happens.
Your Inheritance effect gives the same ability to all Estates on your turns, but when your opponent plays one of theirs in the way you described, the "your" in the ability refers to them, not you. So if they inherited something themselves, the Estate will play that card. If not, the effect will do nothing, as there is no such card as required.
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Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: May 18, 2021, 01:59:00 pm »
Dominion Online is known to be bugged when the MouseToy is a Duration card and a Duration card is played using Way of the Mouse. 
> Band of Misfits to play a non-Duration Action card and use Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village, Band of Misfits stayed in play. I don't think that's intended as Band of Misfits did not emulate a Duration card.
That behaviour is correct. The stay-out rules for "play this but leave it there" cards (like Band of Misfits) don't care if the card played was a Duration card, all they care is how long the played card would stay out if it was actually in play. The non-Duration Action card would stay out if it "normally" played a Fishing Village using Way of the Mouse, so Band of Misfits stays out. It's there to remind you next turn that some effect needed a reminder that isn't itself there, in this case for the Fishing Village effect.
> Band of Misfits to play a non-Duration Action card and use Way of the Mouse to play Fishing Village, Band of Misfits stayed in play. I don't think that's intended as Band of Misfits did not emulate a Duration card.
That behaviour is correct. The stay-out rules for "play this but leave it there" cards (like Band of Misfits) don't care if the card played was a Duration card, all they care is how long the played card would stay out if it was actually in play. The non-Duration Action card would stay out if it "normally" played a Fishing Village using Way of the Mouse, so Band of Misfits stays out. It's there to remind you next turn that some effect needed a reminder that isn't itself there, in this case for the Fishing Village effect.
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Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: May 16, 2021, 07:15:43 am »I agree with everything in this thread, except for this nitpick:It may be obvious, but it's worth repeating that the important part is that Throne Room played a staying-out Duration card twice.
Not necessarily "twice", but "extra times" (as you wrote in the next paragraph). This way Royal Carriage and Scepter are also covered.
Right, good catch!
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Rules Questions / Re: Throne Room + Durable Mouse
« on: May 14, 2021, 05:55:08 am »I'm not sure if this has come up before. Let us suppose Way of the Mouse has Fishing Village. Here goes.
We know this:
Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Otter. Throne played a Duration, is discarded from play when the Duration is. Wharf is discarded from play this turn; so is Throne Room.
That bit is ambiguous. You Throne Roomed a Wharf, so you play Wharf twice. Playing it using Way of the Otter or "normally" is independent for both plays. Your outcome is true only if you chose to play Wharf using Way of the Otter both times. If you play Wharf at least once "normally", then Wharf will have something to do on your next turn, so stays in play until then. Since the Throne Room played the Wharf, a Duration card, twice, it will also stay in play until then.
Okay, so here's the question:
Throne Room -> Necropolis / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Necropolis played a Duration card which acts next turn; Necropolis stays in play. Throne did not play a Duration card, is discarded this turn.
Correct.
Throne Room -> Wharf / Way of the Mouse -> Fishing Village. Wharf played a Duration card which acts next turn; Wharf stays in play....
Well, Wharf played a card that was not in play "leaving it there", that's what's keeping it out until the card it played would have stayed out. That it played a Duration card is not relevant, Duration cards are just the overwhelming majority of cards that can stay out.
In this case, there actually is no existing card that can be a card for Way of the Mouse and either is like a Throne Room or like an Overlord, it could only be a Duration card that would stay out. But that is AFAIK a "lucky coincidence" of how cards are priced (those effects don't come so cheap that a card is eliigable for Way of the Mouse).
In your previous Overlord -> Wharf example, it could have been Overlord --> Throne Room --> Wharf. Throne Room would have stayed in play along with the Wharf, so Overlord actually stays in play as a stand in, as long as Throne Room would, which is as long as Wharf does. So Overlord played a non-Duration card that would have stayed in play, causing Overlord to stay in play.
...Throne did play a Duration card (Wharf), stays in play until Wharf is discarded, next turn.
It may be obvious, but it's worth repeating that the important part is that Throne Room played a staying-out Duration card twice. If it was a Vassal or Herold that played Wharf, either normally or using Way of the Mouse playing Fishing Village, Vassal/Herold would not stay out.
In other words, Throne on a Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse behaves differently than Throne on a non-Duration card played according to a durable Way of the Mouse.
Yes. That's because the rules for "Throne Rooms" staying out explicitly mention they only apply when they play a Duration card extra times. It may seem strange to make a distinction, but having it work on all cards would have resulted in another change in what stays out for "Throne Room -> Throne Room -> Smithy/Fishing Village", keeping the first Throne Room in play "again". Basically one aspect of the 2019 errata was to keep the rules changed to a minimum, with getting the work done on errataing Overlord/Band of Misfits a.s.o to use the new "play something, leaving it there" method and keep tracking of effects half-way intact.
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Rules Questions / Re: Taking Artifacts from Border Guard
« on: April 26, 2021, 04:38:49 am »
The way I see it is that Noble Brigand doesn't make you choose a card name, like Rebuild, but a concrete card, similar to Lookout. For Lookout you have to choose one the revealed cards to trash, even if you don't want to. For Noble Brigand, you have to choose one of the revealed cards, even if you don't want to. The only difference is that there is a further restriction on the revealed card you have to choose, which is that it must be Silver or Gold. If no Silver or Golds are reveled that is of course impossible. But if there is, then one of them has to be chosen.
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Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Rank no longer updating?
« on: April 22, 2021, 07:35:03 am »
I notified Stef (the developer). Thanks for the info.
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Rules Questions / Re: Possession and Events/Projects
« on: April 17, 2021, 01:10:46 am »
Yes.
The key fact to remember is that from a rules perspective, it is the Possessed player's turn. Do not EVER forget that.
If your opponent in their turn buys a Project, of course their cube is placed on the Project, not yours and not any other player's who may be playing. Absolutely the same if their turn is you Possessing them.
The only exceptions are stated on the card:
1) You gain the cards they would gain,
2) Their trashed cards are "rescued",
3) You gain the debt tokens they would gain.
The key fact to remember is that from a rules perspective, it is the Possessed player's turn. Do not EVER forget that.
If your opponent in their turn buys a Project, of course their cube is placed on the Project, not yours and not any other player's who may be playing. Absolutely the same if their turn is you Possessing them.
The only exceptions are stated on the card:
1) You gain the cards they would gain,
2) Their trashed cards are "rescued",
3) You gain the debt tokens they would gain.
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Rules Questions / Re: Sewers & Priest
« on: March 30, 2021, 03:36:33 am »
A slightly longer explanation can be found in the Dominion Online forum, which I prepared for the Online release of Renaissance.
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Rules Questions / Re: Walled Village + Scheme
« on: March 01, 2021, 03:48:44 am »
You have to remember that the discussion took place when a different wording for Scheme was in use (if I got my time lines correct). But my understanding is that it worked then as pubby described.
Now the online version has you make all the decisions after "Start iof Cleanup effects", but before the discard(s) themself happen. That's to prevent the need to go "Which card to discard next", which in 99.999% of situations is pointless. The only real problem is Hermit, which can cause a chain of effects that cause cards to leave play (other than discarded) or enter play during Hermit's trigger, which can screw up your previous decisions. But I haven't seen this myself, it's "just" a theoretical problem.
Now the online version has you make all the decisions after "Start iof Cleanup effects", but before the discard(s) themself happen. That's to prevent the need to go "Which card to discard next", which in 99.999% of situations is pointless. The only real problem is Hermit, which can cause a chain of effects that cause cards to leave play (other than discarded) or enter play during Hermit's trigger, which can screw up your previous decisions. But I haven't seen this myself, it's "just" a theoretical problem.
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Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Enhance Bug
« on: February 22, 2021, 09:01:03 am »
Thanks for the report, chaoslord!
Do you have a game number where that happend, because I tested it and it seems to work correctly?
Note that if you only have one buy, Enhance will use it up, no matter if you have a valid choice for it. So the game will then end the buy phase and proceed to Night/Cleanup, where usually nothing much visible happens.
But if you do have more than 1 buy, the game (at least in my test) allowed you to continue buying things.
Do you have a game number where that happend, because I tested it and it seems to work correctly?
Note that if you only have one buy, Enhance will use it up, no matter if you have a valid choice for it. So the game will then end the buy phase and proceed to Night/Cleanup, where usually nothing much visible happens.
But if you do have more than 1 buy, the game (at least in my test) allowed you to continue buying things.
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Rules Questions / Re: War error?
« on: February 02, 2021, 09:27:41 am »There was no price reduction in effect.
Sure there was. Your opponent had bought Canal.
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Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: Prince of Border Guard
« on: January 17, 2021, 09:03:54 am »
No, unfortunately this isn't possible right now and it's been bothering me since some time
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Dominion Online at Shuffle iT / Re: bug of inventors triggered between turns
« on: November 29, 2020, 05:39:22 am »
You are right, "until end of turn" or "this turn" effects have an incorrect duration in the online client, the same cost reduction for example from Bridge also lasts until your actual next turn ends.
In reality, from my understanding, between turns is nobody's turn, so "until end of turn"/"this turn" is undefined, because there is no turn going on. So like all undefined things, the thing it refers to doesn't happen, so no cost reduction comes of this Inventor (so if you trash 2 Catacombs and do the mentioned sequence twice, the second Inventor will see the same costs of cards as the first one).
Inheritance (under its new October 2019 wording) only works "on your turn", so Estates are never Actions between turns.
In reality, from my understanding, between turns is nobody's turn, so "until end of turn"/"this turn" is undefined, because there is no turn going on. So like all undefined things, the thing it refers to doesn't happen, so no cost reduction comes of this Inventor (so if you trash 2 Catacombs and do the mentioned sequence twice, the second Inventor will see the same costs of cards as the first one).
Inheritance (under its new October 2019 wording) only works "on your turn", so Estates are never Actions between turns.
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Rules Questions / Re: Mastermind + Mastermind + X + X + Mastermind
« on: November 15, 2020, 03:45:20 pm »
The key in understanding this is that there a two sets of rules that govern how long Mastermind (MM) stays in play:
1) The rules for a Duration card staying in play, and
2) The rules for a "Throne Room"-like card staying in play.
The rules for a Duration card staying in play would just keep the Mastermind out for 1 turn, after that time, it did it's job of playing another card 3 times. But the rules for "Throne Room"-like cards say that such a card playing a Duration card an additional time means they stay out as long as the Duration card does.
MM1 is played on turn X. On turn X+1 MM1 plays MM2 3 times. MM1 stays out as long as MM2, according to the rules for 2) above. Since MM2 is a Duration card that has things left to do, MM1 stays at for another turn (X+2), on which MM2 plays Smithies (no relevance for staying out) and MM3. By the same argument as above, MM2 stays in play as long as MM3 does, so is staying at least until turn (X+3), which means MM1 also stays in play until at least that turn.
So your option i) is correct.
1) The rules for a Duration card staying in play, and
2) The rules for a "Throne Room"-like card staying in play.
The rules for a Duration card staying in play would just keep the Mastermind out for 1 turn, after that time, it did it's job of playing another card 3 times. But the rules for "Throne Room"-like cards say that such a card playing a Duration card an additional time means they stay out as long as the Duration card does.
MM1 is played on turn X. On turn X+1 MM1 plays MM2 3 times. MM1 stays out as long as MM2, according to the rules for 2) above. Since MM2 is a Duration card that has things left to do, MM1 stays at for another turn (X+2), on which MM2 plays Smithies (no relevance for staying out) and MM3. By the same argument as above, MM2 stays in play as long as MM3 does, so is staying at least until turn (X+3), which means MM1 also stays in play until at least that turn.
So your option i) is correct.
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Rules Questions / Re: Clarifying playing the action with Toil
« on: October 26, 2020, 06:21:48 pm »
Sure you can use them. What would be the point of +Buy if you can't use money you generated before the first buy to pay for a second or further buy? Events like Borrow and Desperation are made to use that feature. Note that the buy phase has 2 sub-phases, in the first you play Treasure cards, in the second you buy things. So after you bought something, you can no longer play Treasures (as the game allowed action to play Treasures is limited to the first sub-phase). Only if some effect says so you can do it (like if you Toil a Crown).
And btw, the idea of "virtual" or "non-virtual" money is not useful. If you play an Action, it may generate money or it may not. If you play a Treasure card, it may generate money, or it may not. The money generated (if any) is absolutely the same. The only difference is that the percentage of "may not" is much higher for Actions than it is for Treasures.
And btw, the idea of "virtual" or "non-virtual" money is not useful. If you play an Action, it may generate money or it may not. If you play a Treasure card, it may generate money, or it may not. The money generated (if any) is absolutely the same. The only difference is that the percentage of "may not" is much higher for Actions than it is for Treasures.
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Rules Questions / Re: Question about Tunnel and Sleigh
« on: October 26, 2020, 06:15:02 am »
The current ruling is that "discard down to X" effects happen in one event. So once the discard down to 3 for Margrave has been done (likely discarding 3 cards from 6 down to 3 in one event), any future hand size increases/decreases, even if happening still during Margraves execution, have no further effect on those instructions.
So with Tunnel/Gold/Sleigh, your brother should have ended up with 2 cards in hand (3 after Margrave discard, then one less by discarding Sleigh). They could have put the Gold in hand with Sleigh as well, reaching 3 cards, but again neither effect has a bearing on the Margrave discard effect any more.
With Tunnel/Gold/Sheepdog, again the additional 2 cards drawn from Sheepdog have no bearing on the already completed discard effect by Margrave.
------
Now there are discussions that this should be handled the same as "draw to X" effects, which are one at a time: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20160.0
But as far as I'm aware what I wrote above is the way it currently works.
So with Tunnel/Gold/Sleigh, your brother should have ended up with 2 cards in hand (3 after Margrave discard, then one less by discarding Sleigh). They could have put the Gold in hand with Sleigh as well, reaching 3 cards, but again neither effect has a bearing on the Margrave discard effect any more.
With Tunnel/Gold/Sheepdog, again the additional 2 cards drawn from Sheepdog have no bearing on the already completed discard effect by Margrave.
------
Now there are discussions that this should be handled the same as "draw to X" effects, which are one at a time: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20160.0
But as far as I'm aware what I wrote above is the way it currently works.
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Rules Questions / Re: Questions about Ways
« on: October 26, 2020, 05:59:56 am »
Especially for question 2, it pays to remember that the decision if to use a Way on a given Action card playing happens after all the "first" effects for it have happened, like opponents revealing a Moat, or Urchin triggering or the Adventure tokens doing their effect.
If you know this, the answer to question 2 becomes blindingly obvious, because the Urchin effect needs to have already happened before even the time comes to decide if you want to use a Way.
If you know this, the answer to question 2 becomes blindingly obvious, because the Urchin effect needs to have already happened before even the time comes to decide if you want to use a Way.