Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: ConMan on December 12, 2013, 08:24:17 pm

Title: Edge Case Me
Post by: ConMan on December 12, 2013, 08:24:17 pm
The rules are simple: Present a situation which you would almost never do, and let others come up with edge cases where the move is a valid one. In general, assume that you are playing a normal game of Dominion and trying to win.

Additional hard mode rules: Provide an edge case to someone else's edge case.

To start, I offer the following:
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on December 12, 2013, 08:51:43 pm
Play the only Tournament in your deck, with a Province in hand that you don't reveal.

All the prizes are gone and you don't want to top-deck a Duchy, since you know the top card of your deck will bump you up to $8 for the last Province and the win.

Edit: I guess it works as well if there are still prizes remaining, since without them it's a guaranteed win (and it's possible that the only prizes remaining are such that they won't be guaranteed to bump you up to $8).
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: DG on December 12, 2013, 09:40:49 pm
You do not need to reveal a province to your tournament once the prizes have all been claimed and the duchy pile is empty. You may want to do so if you can rebuild that province into a colony.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: sudgy on December 12, 2013, 09:41:51 pm
You do not need to reveal a province to your tournament once the prizes have all been claimed and the duchy pile is empty. You may want to do so if you can rebuild that province into a colony.

You may still want to in this case with draw-up-to-x cards.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Polk5440 on December 12, 2013, 10:06:46 pm
The rules are simple: Present a situation which you would almost never do, and let others come up with edge cases where the move is a valid one. In general, assume that you are playing a normal game of Dominion and trying to win.

Additional hard mode rules: Provide an edge case to someone else's edge case.

To start, I offer the following:
  • Open Silver/Throne Room
  • Play the only Tournament in your deck, with a Province in hand that you don't reveal.
Oh, oh, oh! I did ii) recently. (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131105/log.516cd2c1e4b082c74d7a166a.1383659933356.txt) Well, almost. I had two in hand and didn't reveal to either. I wanted the $1 from Tournament to buy a Duchy and a Province but also wanted to save the Province to Butcher it to empty Provinces to end the game and win. I didn't need to do that in this game, but I COULD have needed those extra points to win.  :)
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Kirian on December 12, 2013, 11:16:10 pm
Edge Case Me, Bro!
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: SCSN on December 13, 2013, 04:02:01 am
At the end of your turn you buy a Platinum and reveal the only card left in your hand, a Watchtower, to trash it. Both the buy and the trash are correct and in fact absolutely necessary for a win on the next turn. Forager is neither in the kingdom nor in the black market deck.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Zappie on December 13, 2013, 04:27:33 am
You are running a goons deck that very supceptible to clog up on non-engine cards, lie chapel goons village market deck. You fear that the game will end on piles, and you don't want to fill the trash with an card costing up to 6 for an oppenents graverobber.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Zappie on December 13, 2013, 04:39:00 am
As to the silver-throne room opening: Opponent bought double young witch (with baker in the kingdom), and after your silver you go for the bane, throne room. Nomad camp is in the kingdom, so if you can throne it if you draw no action on T3.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Davio on December 13, 2013, 05:36:05 am
As to the silver-throne room opening: Opponent bought double young witch (with baker in the kingdom), and after your silver you go for the bane, throne room. Nomad camp is in the kingdom, so if you can throne it if you draw no action on T3.
This doesn't work, because Throne Room is never a bane.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: AHoppy on December 13, 2013, 05:51:59 am
As to the silver-throne room opening: Opponent bought double young witch (with baker in the kingdom), and after your silver you go for the bane, throne room. Nomad camp is in the kingdom, so if you can throne it if you draw no action on T3.
This doesn't work, because Throne Room is never a bane.
But: He's playing on goko where silver is bane and he's insanity wolf going for that throne-nomad camp scenario
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: soulnet on December 13, 2013, 09:21:13 am
At the end of your turn you buy a Platinum and reveal the only card left in your hand, a Watchtower, to trash it. Both the buy and the trash are correct and in fact absolutely necessary for a win on the next turn. Forager is neither in the kingdom nor in the black market deck.

You used the WT to topdeck Remodel,Native Village,Graverobber,Highway,Highway,Highway in that order, and have Outpost in play. Trashing the Plat ensures you can get Remodel in hand and you can get Plat in hand with Graverobber to Remodel intro the last Colony during your Outpost turn. Topdecking the Plat would mean you do not get to Remodel and letting the Plat go to the discard would mean you get no Plat to remodel in hand.

EDIT: It does not work exactly, maybe some variation, but I have to go :(.

EDIT2: It can be fixed by including Labs or Governor in the top cards to draw an extra Cantrip after Graverobbing.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Davio on December 13, 2013, 10:14:13 am
At the end of your turn you buy a Platinum and reveal the only card left in your hand, a Watchtower, to trash it. Both the buy and the trash are correct and in fact absolutely necessary for a win on the next turn. Forager is neither in the kingdom nor in the black market deck.
You played Governor, Possession and Cutpurse/Taxman/Bureaucrat and know that your opponent's hand is Highway-Highway-Highway-Remodel-Graverobber-Pearl Diver and he has a Fishing Village in play from his previous turn.

You play the Highways, the Graverobber, draw the Platinum with Pearl Diver and Remodel it to a Colony.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on December 13, 2013, 02:53:47 pm
Open Silver/Throne Room

It is a 6-player game.  The only kingdom cards costing less than $5 are Throne Room and Swindler.  You're going last, and everyone else starts with a $3 hand and buys Swindler.  You plan to open Throne Room/Swindler, so you buy Throne Room with your opening $4 hand.  To your disappointment, everyone else proceeds to buy a second Swindler with his $4 hand, and you are now stuck buying Silver with your $3 hand.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: jomini on January 04, 2014, 01:14:54 am
At the end of your turn you buy a Platinum and reveal the only card left in your hand, a Watchtower, to trash it. Both the buy and the trash are correct and in fact absolutely necessary for a win on the next turn. Forager is neither in the kingdom nor in the black market deck.

There are several basic reasons to buy & trash any card: establish a credible 3 pile threat (e.g. empty the plat pile, next turn you can end the game), denial (your opponent is running Soothesayer/Mine/Remodel - now they can only go Colony -> Colony, you win your following turn), seed the trash (you can dumpster dive later with Graverobber), trigger Market squares (you trash a card, you can now discard 4 Mrksqrs and setup a game winning colony next turn), abuse Hagglers (e.g. buy Plat, gain 5 Kcs), and activate Goons (buy Plat gain 6 VP). Now some of these need a good reason not to have plat in deck (let alone on deck top), but that is easy - you are playing with Scheme/Scrying pool, you can't have a duplicate card in your Menage deck, you space for limited draw to work, your deck is <5 cards. You need to chain Ventures -> Bank or Pstones which means Plat is an active hindrance. Your opponent has Possession and you need to be unable to buy a colony (if they buy the penultimate province you win, if they buy the last colony they win).

So my personal favorite is something like I have 3 Hagglers in play and Buy a plat (gaining 2 Ventures and a Counterfeit). I trash the plat so I can be sure to draw nothing but more ventures and Pstones. I top deck my combo and next turn buy 2 colonies for the win.

Quote
Open Silver/Throne Room
Noble brigand can make these sorts of things work. You open Silver. Your opponent goes Nb. You discard EE, gaining a copper. You have CCCCE in hand and SCC on deck top. That makes for pretty strong odds of hitting 5 on T3. With the right power 5 (say Count) heading into a strong engine (say  Market/Library/Count/Tr), I think I take the Tr now as a temporarily dead card rather than burn time later to get it on T4 or something.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: KingZog3 on January 04, 2014, 04:01:44 am
As to the silver-throne room opening: Opponent bought double young witch (with baker in the kingdom), and after your silver you go for the bane, throne room. Nomad camp is in the kingdom, so if you can throne it if you draw no action on T3.
This doesn't work, because Throne Room is never a bane.

It can be if you play a Highway before the game starts.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: hyramgraff on January 07, 2014, 04:14:22 pm
As to the silver-throne room opening: Opponent bought double young witch (with baker in the kingdom), and after your silver you go for the bane, throne room. Nomad camp is in the kingdom, so if you can throne it if you draw no action on T3.
This doesn't work, because Throne Room is never a bane.

It can be if you play a Highway before the game starts.

Welcome to Dominion: Legacy.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: itchiko on January 08, 2014, 01:17:34 pm
  • Open Silver/Throne Room

6 player game with IGG on the board. You are first player and open silver to do a silver/silver opening to IGG when you realize all 5 other players have a 5/2 split and open IGG.
You know realize all 10 IGG and all 50 curses will be gained by the time of the second shuffle. That means the game will be ending in am estate/duchy rush and willl probably end around before the third shuflle. You need an high risk/ high reward plan to have a chance.

Luckily for you there is one: in the form of poor house. With some warehouse support. But their is no village so your best chance to grab an early lucky province (which would probably put you in a favorable sit) is to throne room that poor house using Warehouse to remove the copper. So by the end of the T5 and the 2nd reshuffle you plan to have: 1 throne room, 1 poor house and 2 warehouse in your deck. Problem is there is a chance that you may not reach 4 again during the next 3 turns (you have 9 coins in 17 cards) there is also a chance that you got a 2 coin or 1 coin hand in those 3 turns so you want to keep the poor house buy for such an hand. (plus you don't want other player to see what you are doing right now to avoid copycat).
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: achmed_sender on January 08, 2014, 01:20:32 pm
  • Open Silver/Throne Room

6 player game with IGG on the board. You are first player and open silver to do a silver/silver opening to IGG when you realize all 5 other players have a 5/2 split and open IGG.
You know realize all 10 IGG and all 50 curses will be gained by the time of the second shuffle. That means the game will be ending in am estate/duchy rush and willl probably end around before the third shuflle. You need an high risk/ high reward plan to have a chance.

Luckily for you there is one: in the form of poor house. With some warehouse support. But their is no village so your best chance to grab an early lucky province (which would probably put you in a favorable sit) is to throne room that poor house using Warehouse to remove the copper. So by the end of the T5 and the 2nd reshuffle you plan to have: 1 throne room, 1 poor house and 2 warehouse in your deck. Problem is there is a chance that you may not reach 4 again during the next 3 turns (you have 9 coins in 17 cards) there is also a chance that you got a 2 coin or 1 coin hand in those 3 turns so you want to keep the poor house buy for such an hand. (plus you don't want other player to see what you are doing right now to avoid copycat).

Edge case level: Over 9000
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 03:20:16 pm
In a KC/KC situation, when is it correct to decline to play an action card from your hand three times, but then immediately choose to do so? E.g., KC->KC->(nothing, some card, some card)
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Awaclus on January 08, 2014, 03:26:06 pm
In a KC/KC situation, when is it correct to decline to play an action card from your hand three times, but then immediately choose to do so? E.g., KC->KC->(nothing, some card, some card)
When you have 3 or more action cards in your hand and you want to hide the number from your opponent.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 03:29:12 pm
I don't get it, why would it be correct not to king them, and then immediately king them? If you want to hide that you have them, you wouldn't king them at all.

Edit: I guess you might have two that you want to king, and possibly one more that you don't want to play at all, but you don't want to reveal that you have it, and you're playing online where there will be a noticeable pause if you can king it but choose not to - in that case, to preserve the mindgame, you also have to do it in situations where you don't have the third card. If that was your answer, then I should add that it's not about online time tells, or mindgames, I believe there is at least one legitimate edge case which you might see in an IRL game, or against a bot, or both if that were possible.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Witherweaver on January 08, 2014, 03:38:47 pm
In a KC/KC situation, when is it correct to decline to play an action card from your hand three times, but then immediately choose to do so? E.g., KC->KC->(nothing, some card, some card)

You have the (extremely unlikely deck) of treasure and KC, KC, Margave, Spy, and one other action (say Mystic).  Since you can only guarantee the top card of their deck is bad with Spy, you don't want to triple play Margave, as they'll be able get three of the best 7 cards (assuming you leave a bad one on top with Spy).  So you only want to play Margave once, KC the Spy and the other action, then play Margave. 

EDIT: Oh, did you mean the same action?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 03:41:56 pm
The puzzle is that it has to be correct to decline to king a card, and then immediately king it. There are plenty of reasons why you might decline to king a card, but then play it normally - forced trashers, for example.

A related problem: Your hand is TR/TR/TR/Smithy/x. Your deck contains no card which you don't want to Throne. Why might it be correct to play TR/TR/Smithy/... instead of TR/TR/TR/Smithy?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 03:45:50 pm
duchess or governor-for-remodel in a 3+ player game maybe?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 04:04:52 pm
Again, why would it be correct to firstly not king them, and then immediately king them? As I said, it's easy to come up with reasons why you might prefer not to king a card, but still want to play it once.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 04:14:06 pm
Again, why would it be correct to firstly not king them, and then immediately king them? As I said, it's easy to come up with reasons why you might prefer not to king a card, but still want to play it once.
well, the idea is that you want to tell one of the players that you a) have no cards you want to king that draw and b) you have at most one other card you want to king.

e.g., you're trying to trick the other player to trash their tunnel into a 4-cost so that when you 3-pile it you win? (they wouldn't have otherwise because of the risk that you play a militia and so they can discard their tunnel). Or maybe it's near the end of the game and this one player is really losing so you don't mind helping them, so you are getting them to trash their attack card into green which will hurt you more than the third player.

The examples are a bit shaky, but I'm sure there's a way to make it work without counting on other players to make a mistake. It needs to be a 3+ player game where the player's optimal choice helps you and you are making it their optimal choice by passing on the first two KCs so they don't need to worry about you doing something else this turn.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 04:15:39 pm
A related problem: Your hand is TR/TR/TR/Smithy/x. Your deck contains no card which you don't want to Throne. Why might it be correct to play TR/TR/Smithy/... instead of TR/TR/TR/Smithy?
you can play TR-TR-smithy-TR-x-x or TR-TR-TR-Smithy-x-x and it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 04:16:50 pm
Sorry, how does that work? I decline to king a card, then I immediately king a card, there is no time in between for an opponent to make a decision based on the false belief that I had no card to king.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 04:17:35 pm
A related problem: Your hand is TR/TR/TR/Smithy/x. Your deck contains no card which you don't want to Throne. Why might it be correct to play TR/TR/Smithy/... instead of TR/TR/TR/Smithy?
you can play TR-TR-smithy-TR-x-x or TR-TR-TR-Smithy-x-x and it doesn't matter.
So your "solution" is that there is no solution? Then, to my knowledge, you are wrong.

(I guess I should have added that you do play TR/TR/Smithy/TR/... rather than possibly drawing a Remodel and trashing the third TR.)
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 08, 2014, 04:20:25 pm
It is a 4-player game.  KC, Masq, Gardens, Silk Road, a discarding attack, and Peddler are in the kingdom.  You are player A, to your left is player B, to his left is C, and to his left (your right) is D.  You know that Gardens are better for you than Silk Road, and you know that Silk Roads are better for B than Gardens.  Everyone knows (from a Pillage reveal or whatever) that C and D have hands of all Provinces.  You have a hand of KC, KC, Masq, Silk Road.  You make an agreement with B that you would be willing to pass him Silk Road if he will pass you Gardens (which C and D will pass since they have all Provinces in their hands and would prefer to pass Gardens).  However, B doesn't trust you to not draw and play a discarding attack with one Masq, then force him to pass the Silk Road that he receives with another Masquerade, so you let the first two KC plays pass to prove to him that the KC'd Masq will be your last action this turn.

So why did you KC-KC-(nothing)-(nothing)-Masq instead of just KC-Masq?  Because you needed to reduce the price of Peddler, of course.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on January 08, 2014, 04:21:38 pm
I'm not sure if this fits your scenario, but I was thinking that if you have two Durations you want to King, as you work your way back up your KC chain, you may want to skip playing a Duration with the last use of a KC-KC, then immediately play it with a higher KC in your chain and the other Duration, so that you only need to leave one KC out as a reminder.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't fit the specifics you gave, at least not based on your example, but maybe it's still interesting.

I'm also not really sure about the KC-Duration rule either, so I could be getting that all wrong.

edit: This should work for the TR example, if I understand the Duration ruling correctly.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 04:28:01 pm
Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: WalrusMcFishSr on January 08, 2014, 04:32:08 pm
Your hand is KC x2, Mountebank x2, and one more. But your opponent could have a Trader in hand. So your first selection is to KC-KC-nothing, and you use this opportunity to watch your opponent for tells. Rapid blinking, subtly touching his cards, jitteriness, and so forth. Possibly he'll wipe his sweaty brow with a handkerchief. This will give you a better indication as to whether you should actually play the Mountebanks afterward.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Witherweaver on January 08, 2014, 04:35:49 pm
Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?

But wait, didn't they change the rule so that only one KC stays out instead of all of them?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 04:39:19 pm
It has to be the KC which directly played the duration card.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Witherweaver on January 08, 2014, 04:43:24 pm
It has to be the KC which directly played the duration card.

Oh okay so, for example, KC1->KC2-> Caravan, draw a KC3, Caravan, Smithy.  Choose KC3 to play on KC2's second play, choose Smithy, draw stuff.  Neglect to play Caravan with KC3 so you can instead play it with KC2 so that only KC2 stays out and not KC2 and KC3.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:01:29 pm
okay, more fleshed-out example:

3 player game. you are player 1 and have, say, 24 points. player 2 has 25 points. player 3 has 29 points. there are 2 provinces left, and a three-pile is not a threat. It's your turn.

You have a starting hand of spy-necropolis-laboratory-cutpurse-duchess.  You play necropolis, then cutpurse (you do this first because you know neither player has any copper and you want to see their hands). player 2 has a counterfeit, a gold, and 3 useless cards in their hand. They also have a caravan in play. player 3 has KC-KC-bridge-bridge-bridge. Then you play lab and draw two KC.

Now your hand is KC-KC-spy-duchess, you have 1 action left, 2$, 1 buy. You play KC-KC-spy to start. You draw 3 useless cards, discard 2 useless cards, and the last one doesn't matter. What player 3 reveals doesn't matter. You have been tracking player 2's deck (by playing cutpurse) and their last cards are 20 golds, 1 abandoned mine, and 3 useless cards. You luckily hit the abandoned mine right away, and leave it there.

And now here's the best part. You pass on your second KC action, then KC the duchess. This tells player 2 that you aren't going to be getting any additional buys because you are now out of actions (you don't have a counterfeit in your deck). You have exactly 8$ and are going to be buying the penultimate province, which he knows you know is the right move because you saw player 2's hand. He knows that buying the province is the only way for you to get second place, because otherwise Player 3 will get a turn and P1 will lose. So while he will almost certainly be able to get a gold by discarding to the duchess, he won't need to be able to get an estate with his province, and there is a slim chance he can't get a gold. The only way to guarantee the win is to keep the abandoned mine. If you had played the duchess second, he would have thought you were probably playing another action, possibly getting another buy and maybe more money, so I might have been able to add on an estate. In this case, P2 would have gone for the gold that he almost certainly would get so that he can get an estate as well as a province on his turn.

So P2 leaves the abandoned mine, and you buy the penultimate province. P2 then draw and plays the abandoned mine, counterfeits the gold, and buys the last province. ending the game. final scores: P1: 30, P2: 31, P3: 29.

The only way for P1 to get second place instead of last was for him to do nothing for the second KC action.

now, how the game got to this state, and if there are too many kingdom cards, I have no idea.

Someone's gonna reply with a simple 1 card solution now.

Pre-Post-Edit: darn, looks like an answer got posted while I was working on this.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:03:45 pm
You make an agreement with B that you would be willing to pass him Silk Road if he will pass you Gardens
If I were B I would break the deal and keep the gardens and silk road...
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 05:05:01 pm
You play KC-KC-spy to start. [...] you are now out of actions
No you aren't, Spy gives you three more.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:09:55 pm
You play KC-KC-spy to start. [...] you are now out of actions
No you aren't, Spy gives you three more.
ah, initially I had you playing the spy outside of the KC... darn. Well in that case it's actually a mistake to play the spy inside the KC, because then P2 thinks you might still play an action, and you are relying on P2 to leave the abandoned mine. so play it outside of the KC chain, you still draw 1 useless card that P2 wouldn't otherwise know is useless.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 08, 2014, 05:15:55 pm
I'll presume you need to KC/KC rather than just KC/Duchess because you also need to king an Abandoned Mine to get to $8. Then it seems like you have a solution, and I think around here you get bonus points for extreme convolution.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:27:32 pm
I'll presume you need to KC/KC rather than just KC/Duchess because you also need to king an Abandoned Mine to get to $8. Then it seems like you have a solution, and I think around here you get bonus points for extreme convolution.
no, I have 2 from cutpurse and 6 from duchess. I need to use 2 KC because... ugh, I dunno.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:29:10 pm
Well anyway, I think it's clear that there's some way to make it work by giving your opponent information you need them to have.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 08, 2014, 05:32:43 pm
Mic Q is correct, that's the solution I had in mind - structuring the KC tree more efficiently to leave out fewer KCs alongside duration cards. It doesn't have to be exactly of the form KC/KC/nothing/something/something, I was just giving an example of declining to king, and then immediately kinging in the same chain.

Scott's solution I'm not sure about, why would B trust you to pass Silk Road, but not trust you to not play Militia?

Because you revealed your hand, so he knows that you will be forced to pass him a Silk Road if you play Masquerade (which I guess is also a reason you would play two KC's, instead of reducing the price of peddler).
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:40:32 pm
Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 08, 2014, 05:43:25 pm
Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:45:12 pm
Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
if your hand was revealed, then it wasn't you who played the pillage, in which case player D's hand wasn't revealed. (he must have played the pillage). Maybe you played a pillage as well?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 08, 2014, 05:46:37 pm
Are you allowed to reveal your hand in dominion?

Well presumably a Pillage had been played at some point.
if your hand was revealed, then it wasn't you who played the pillage, in which case player D's hand wasn't revealed. (he must have played the pillage). Maybe you played a pillage as well?

Right, both you and another player had played Pillage.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: liopoil on January 08, 2014, 05:54:30 pm
cool. Still, why did he give you the gardens when he doesn't need to? He's getting the silk road either way
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Awaclus on January 08, 2014, 06:01:56 pm
cool. Still, why did he give you the gardens when he doesn't need to? He's getting the silk road either way
Because you pulled an Embargo from the Black Market deck and threaten to Embargo the Silk Roads if he doesn't.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 09, 2014, 01:55:51 pm
He isn't getting the silk road either way, masq can draw a curse.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 09, 2014, 03:22:55 pm
He isn't getting the silk road either way, masq can draw a curse.

Someone else had oracled you to reveal two silk roads on top of your deck.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 09, 2014, 03:32:35 pm
I'm kinging the masq, and he's getting the third card I pass. You'll have to do better than a measly Oracle!
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on January 09, 2014, 03:34:04 pm
I'm kinging the masq, and he's getting the third card I pass. You'll have to do better than a measly Oracle!

...but he's also getting the first card you pass, which is Silk Road.  And then he's holding onto the Silk Road, and passing junk to his neighbor.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: Warfreak2 on January 09, 2014, 03:44:51 pm
Dernit!
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: ConMan on February 11, 2014, 10:43:39 pm
In a 2p game, you know that both you and your opponent have a Province in hand. You play Tournament, and neither of you reveal your Provinces - and this was the correct strategic move for both of you. Why?
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: eHalcyon on February 11, 2014, 10:53:43 pm
In a 2p game, you know that both you and your opponent have a Province in hand. You play Tournament, and neither of you reveal your Provinces - and this was the correct strategic move for both of you. Why?

Well it's easy enough for "you" -- you're far enough behind that you don't want to gain the last Duchy and lose on piles.  Or you want to keep Province in your hand for something else -- discard for benefit, Crossroads, whatever.

But for your opponent not to block your Tournament?  Maybe he hopes you will mistakenly end the game on piles.  Maybe he wants to hide the fact that he has a Province in his hand.  Say he knows that you have KC-Tournament-Tournament-(other action) in your hand and thinks that you're testing him with the first Tournament.

Or, you only have one Tournament in your deck and your draw pile is empty.  He wants your Tournament to miss the reshuffle.



Oh, easy alternative answer -- your opponent is possessing you, so he doesn't reveal his own Province.  You don't reveal your Province either because your opponent doesn't want to lose on piles, or wants you to have the Province in hand for something else (see above).
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: scott_pilgrim on February 11, 2014, 11:10:21 pm
You have a one-card hand because of Torturer (the card in your hand is Province), and if you reveal it your opponent will know he can use his last action to play Masquerade and force you to pass the Province (he would otherwise prefer to play another terminal).
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: ConMan on February 11, 2014, 11:47:46 pm
In a 2p game, you know that both you and your opponent have a Province in hand. You play Tournament, and neither of you reveal your Provinces - and this was the correct strategic move for both of you. Why?

Well it's easy enough for "you" -- you're far enough behind that you don't want to gain the last Duchy and lose on piles.  Or you want to keep Province in your hand for something else -- discard for benefit, Crossroads, whatever.
Gaining the last Duchy is only a problem if you also don't want any of the remaining Prizes - if there are no Prizes left you can always choose to gain a Prize, then wind up not gaining anything.

Quote from: eHalcyon
But for your opponent not to block your Tournament?  Maybe he hopes you will mistakenly end the game on piles.  Maybe he wants to hide the fact that he has a Province in his hand.  Say he knows that you have KC-Tournament-Tournament-(other action) in your hand and thinks that you're testing him with the first Tournament.

Or, you only have one Tournament in your deck and your draw pile is empty.  He wants your Tournament to miss the reshuffle.
That's one possibility I came up with, but can extend it to having all my good cards in play already, and thus having them miss the shuffle.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: eHalcyon on February 11, 2014, 11:58:13 pm
You have a one-card hand because of Torturer (the card in your hand is Province), and if you reveal it your opponent will know he can use his last action to play Masquerade and force you to pass the Province (he would otherwise prefer to play another terminal).

I think this technically works, but with only one card remaining it would be fairly safe to play Masquerade anyway.  But why would anyone discard down to a Province anyway?  Hand of 5 Provinces, I guess?  But then, knowing that Masquerade could very well be played, gaining a Curse has to be the right play in order to protect those Provinces.  I guess you could further edge case that the single Curse could allow the Torturer player to end the game on a win (via Duchies, various alt VP, whatever) so the other guy has to risk passing the Province for a chance at victory...



@ConMan, fair enough on the Duchy gaining.  Wanting to keep the extra Province in hand still works though.
Title: Re: Edge Case Me
Post by: jomini on February 12, 2014, 02:12:14 am
You have a one-card hand because of Torturer (the card in your hand is Province), and if you reveal it your opponent will know he can use his last action to play Masquerade and force you to pass the Province (he would otherwise prefer to play another terminal).
It is a much easier setup if you get rid of Torturer and put in B-crat (preferably with some help like Cutpurse or Pillage) so you have no choice but to leave a province in an all province hand.

An easy shot for you not to reveal your province is just deck control - you don't want to clutter the draw up (e.g. the next cards are known to be Kc/full powered city) or you know you have a province buying hand next turn, buy lose it if you reveal and the opponent does as well.

Why might they not reveal? Deck tracking. If my opponent will skip his Tournaments for a full round, that is big. Another big shot is if drawing a card is better than leaving it on deck - e.g. I know you have Golem and just two actions left in the deck. If you draw a card, then golem might miss an action. If you draw it into hand then you may play it xor the Golem. Another shot might be that you are about to draw a card I can use as well. For instance, I want you to draw your Bishop so I can trash a curse, discard a Market square, and then top the gold with my Watchtower (to draw it next turn with the Wt for the game winning province). I might even want you to have an attack to play off of which I can key (e.g. you draw a Swindler, I know my top card is a Peddler, you draw a Militia while I hold Xroads/Library). I mean, I might even want you to get to a province buy so I can turn Fool's gold into the real stuff so I can then play cantrip -> Remodel.