Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Watno on December 10, 2013, 07:05:56 pm
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I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.
For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.
Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.
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I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.
For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.
Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.
"The card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is"
I wonder what exactly he means by this. Personally, "interesting" isn't what comes to mind when I think of rebuild
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I found this on BGG and I thought people might be interested in it: Donald X talks about Rebuild on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14094365#14094365
In retrospect the card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is. Which is to say, the most powerful cards should make for lots of interesting gameplay and different situations; Chapel for example may be strong, but the games play out differently depending on the rest of the cards. With Rebuild the rest of the cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.
For casual players it probably isn't a problem, unless one of them reads online about how to use Rebuild. For serious players you will probably have more fun just not playing with Rebuild after you've had the experience. I would rather that not be the case, but well at least there are 34 other kingdom cards in Dark Ages.
Too bad, I had a distant hope there was something people hadn't found yet.
"The card is clearly too powerful for how interesting it is"
I wonder what exactly he means by this. Personally, "interesting" isn't what comes to mind when I think of rebuild
He means that powerful cards should be interesting and it is unfortunate that rebuild is not interesting.
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Ah, but the first time I read the card, I found it very interesting. I thought that you might be able to build a strategy around just that one card, but I felt like it would be too slow. I didn't realize how powerful it was by itself until I came on here and read what other people were thinking about it. So when I first saw the card, I thought it was interesting and potentially very hard to use effectively. I was wrong, but still, I see where DXV is coming from
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I guess I phrased that poorly.
Rebuild is an interesting card; the amount of stuff we have written about rebuild proves this, but rebuild gets dull after a few games since you always use a similar strategy.
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I guess I phrased that poorly.
Rebuild is an interesting card; the amount of stuff we have written about rebuild proves this, but rebuild gets dull after a few games since you always use a similar strategy.
Gotcha,
Thanks for elucidating that sentence for me
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Yeah, I was part of that thread. I think Donald's next post in the thread is also very interesting.
Evaulating / testing alternate versions of Rebuild is beyond the scope for me. As always feel free to play whatever variants you want. You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com.
I guess I can tell you that, if at the last minute I had thought oops Rebuild is too strong, I probably would have put in a different card that had gone by the name Rebuild - cost $4, Remodel one of the top three cards of your deck (discard the other two), putting the gained card on top of your deck. That card got a lot of testing and was fine, there was just a point when it seemed like people didn't like it enough and probably I could do better.
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I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.
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I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.
Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.
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I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.
Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.
I disagree. The thing that makes Rebuild uninteresting for me is that it's a one-card strategy. $5 is the most important cost in Dominion. In a Rebuild strategy, all your $5 buys are tied up on Rebuilds and Duchies. The fact that there are over 200 cards now and you therefore see Rebuild less does not make it more bearable.
Ambassador is like Chapel. The other cards on the board matter a lot. It's even skippable in some games.
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Exactly. It's like IGG, except worse, because at least with IGG there's still VP left to buy if you can handle the incoming curses. With Rebuild, you can't play any strategy that ramps up slower than it (because there'll be no VP left to buy by the time you're ramped up) and there are precious few strategies that ramp up faster than it.
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I wonder how much a ghost ship engine slows down rebuild.
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I wonder how much a ghost ship engine slows down rebuild.
Barely any, you can put exactly the victory card you need on top. If you aren't buying anything great this turn, you can put the money on top and discard. I wouldn't be surprised if you actually would speed up rebuild with ghost ship.
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I find Rebuild games rather interesting. Sure, the strategy is similar, but there are a lot of opportunities for tactical play every time.
Agreed. Rebuild would have been a disaster in Base or Intrigue, just because it has a tendency to render the rest of the board irrelevant, but by the time Dark Ages came around there were enough cards that it didn't ruin the game simply because it doesn't show up that much. When it does, as with ambassador, the execution is crucial even if the card itself is a must buy.
I disagree. The thing that makes Rebuild uninteresting for me is that it's a one-card strategy. $5 is the most important cost in Dominion. In a Rebuild strategy, all your $5 buys are tied up on Rebuilds and Duchies. The fact that there are over 200 cards now and you therefore see Rebuild less does not make it more bearable.
Ambassador is like Chapel. The other cards on the board matter a lot. It's even skippable in some games.
This is exactly what I was pondering earlier today. Most of the top cards, like Ambassador, Masquerade, Goons and the like, still need you to use the rest of the board in order to be effective. Rebuild does not, or not much anyway. Rebuild itself is the strategy that other cards can augment. Still, there are subtleties and important decisions on that the players have to make that determine the winner of a Rebuild game that go beyond simple shuffle luck.
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"You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com."
Well, at least he doesn't seem to hate us.
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"You may find people willing to simulate different Rebuild variants at dominionstrategy.com."
Well, at least he doesn't seem to hate us.
If only he'd post here again once in a while.
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It saddens me. After all this time, I still hoped that Dominion-even with Rebuild-could be trumpeted as a well-balanced game. It's still delightfully fun, but if we really didn't miss any hidden playtesting intricacy, and Rebuild really is as unbalanced as it looks, that's trouble.
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It saddens me. After all this time, I still hoped that Dominion-even with Rebuild-could be trumpeted as a well-balanced game. It's still delightfully fun, but if we really didn't miss any hidden playtesting intricacy, and Rebuild really is as unbalanced as it looks, that's trouble.
I think another quote from him in that thread is important:
"Rebuild was the last card I added to Dark Ages, and Dark Ages was finished after Guilds. So it was the last card. The playtesting group was drifting off, and for sure it got less playtesting than anything else."
So the least-playtested card available is overpowered. Out of 200+ cards, I'd say that's a good track record.
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Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher. Has that option been discussed before?
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I think a variant that has been discussed before was having one that doesn't have +1 Action on it.
I know, that's what Donald tried originally, but that guy's analysis seems to suggest it's better than having it. His analysis showed that it was mediocre-average in power for $5.
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I think a variant that has been discussed before was having one that doesn't have +1 Action on it.
I know, that's what Donald tried originally, but that guy's analysis seems to suggest it's better than having it. His analysis showed that it was mediocre-average in power for $5.
Power isn't the sole issue, though. You'll still want to buy Duchies to fuel it. That's really what kills the card. I think I'm going to use my "Dominion time machine" and playtest this next time I play some IRL Dominion:
(http://i.imgur.com/uhMprBw.png) (http://i.imgur.com/vBmhW7O.png)
Maybe some playtesters found it boring, but I'm willing to give it a shot.
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I just houseruled Rebuild to cost $6, and I think it works better. It's still good, but it's harder to build your whole strategy around the one card that way.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
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Thanks for sharing Watno. Rebuild is really the only card I just dislike in the Dominion universe. While there are cards that I'm not a big fan of, I appreciate them and play with them. I was so close to house rule this card, but didn't do it because I don't like house rules in general. Now, that Donald X. himself admitted that this isn't really balanced I'm really inclined to house rule it.
1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. I guess, it may add variance if you get Rebuild collision, but I think that's a good thing here, because you maybe want to add some support, Walled Village comes to my mind here, it would be great in a straight up Rebuild game. Because one thing I dislike about Rebuild is that it is rarely a bad addition to your deck, you can even add it in your engine and play it for great effect. Then the +1 Action matters. Also it matters with strong attacks which are usually terminal. Let's assume a Sea Hag board with Rebuild. It's a no brainer to add Rebuild to your deck, no matter if you go for Sea Hag or not. But without the +1 Action, you have to think twice, especially if you want to open Sea Hag.
3.) shark_bait's suggestion though I like maybe even better. Returning to the supply instead of trashing gives any other strategy more time and potential to catch up by grabbing a couple of Duchies in the end game. Also you can't force a game end by trashing Province into Province. Rebuild though may be a totally different card, but I'm eager to try it out.
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I also think "return to the supply" is an idea worth exploring.
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway?
Get Rebuild as quickly as possible. Turn Estates into Duchies (name Duchy for Rebuild) while buying more Rebuilds (usually around 3 total). As Duchies run out, you can either pick up another Estate if you can turn it into a Duchy, or just buy a Duchy instead of a Rebuild. You need at least 4 of the Duchies, if you get 5, you've basically won the game. Now turn Duchies into Provinces (name Province) at your leisure. The Duchy split is super-important since it's usually the only thing you can Rebuild into Province, so definitely Rebuild Estate into Duchy before doing Duchy to Province. At $5 or more either buy Duchy or Rebuild, with less, buy a couple of Silvers to start, then any non-terminal sifter (Warehouse is great, Cellar is OK, things like Spice Merchant can help you clear out junk copper).
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1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]
Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:
TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.
It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).
I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
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1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]
Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:
TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.
It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).
I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
1.) What I meant is that card strength is still the same and if you're lucky to get an early $6, that may be huge. The problem is getting to $6. If there's a strong attack, you may not even get to $6 for a while what makes Rebuild probably weak. I'm also not that surprised that it loses to BM+Smithy, but 75-25 is more than I expected. But all the wins where probably out of an early $6 after the first reshuffle. Anyway, it makes the card itself not more interesting or balanced. Changing the cost doesn't fix it. That's exectly what I meant.
2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
Yep, that happened to me. I wanted to try Rats-Develop, but Rebuild was on the board. I still have yet to try Rats-Develop.
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So Dominion *is* a solved game. You just have to buy Rebuild instead of Golds and Silvers.
All kidding aside, surely we can find *something* to combat Rebuild. Graverobber perhaps? I put forward Saboteur at one point - I'm sure Knights might help also. Let's get our minds together!
EDIT: Also, didn't we have this same discussion when Jack of all Trades came out?
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2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.
The question is, is it an interesting, fun card? Simulations won't be able to determine that. It's worth noting that terminal Rebuild was tested and nobody won a game with it.
The root problem with Rebuild is that it forces you to buy Duchies to fuel it. Spending your $5 buys on Duchies is boring.
EDIT: Let me try to explain that further. I enjoy Duchy dancing as much as the next guy; probably significantly more, actually. But spending all your non-Rebuild buys on Duchies is dull. Duke doesn't really have this issue since you need some kind of support to go Duke. You can't just buy Duchies from the get-go or you'll choke. Rebuild doesn't really have that issue. So its strength is part of the problem, but even if you make it terminal or raise its cost, the Duchy rush still remains.
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So Dominion *is* a solved game. You just have to buy Rebuild instead of Golds and Silvers.
All kidding aside, surely we can find *something* to combat Rebuild. Graverobber perhaps? I put forward Saboteur at one point - I'm sure Knights might help also. Let's get our minds together!
EDIT: Also, didn't we have this same discussion when Jack of all Trades came out?
A strong engine can beat the Rebuild, I think the difference to Jack is that Rebuild also hurts engines as it destroyes the Duchies to catch up, so you need a faster engine that does not need the option for Duchies...
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I've had some luck with Saboteur engines vs. Rebuild. A Rebuild deck has such a high density of victory cards that the Saboteur becomes much more effective, and if the duchies are gone hitting Provinces is devastating. Optimal play probably requires you to through in your own Rebuild most of the time, but it's interesting that one of the weakest cards in the game is a decent counter to one of the strongest.
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
It depends on a few things, like whether you're playing a mirror or not, whether there are Colonies and/or Shelters, whether there's any alt-VP in the kingdom, what split you get, etc. etc. etc. But, painting with extremely broad strokes, I would say that in general you want to:
- open Silver/Silver or Silver/terminal Silver. Stuff like Silver/cycler can be really good too (Silver/Warehouse is particularly nice for Rebuild, IMO), there's some room for creativity
- get 2 Rebuilds ASAP. Possibly a third depending on what your opponent's doing
- focus on Rebuilding Estates into Duchies. And once you have enough Rebuilds, usually you want to buy Duchy at $5-7. If there's no alt-VP, Duchy is the key card in a Rebuild mirror because if you can win the Duchy split you can cut off your opponent's route to Provinces, because a Rebuild deck will rarely hit $8.
- assuming no alt-VP, if you're in the lead and the Duchies are gone, just focus on taking points off the board. If you have no Estates left in your deck then it doesn't matter what you name when you play Rebuild. But if you do, just name Estate so that your Rebuilds will either hit Duchies or Provinces.
- if you're behind in that same situation... pray. Because you're probably not going to win.
EDIT: Ninja'd by BadAssMutha, more or less. I disagree with his advice about buying Estates though, I think you usually don't want to do that.
Also:
I've had some luck with Saboteur engines vs. Rebuild. A Rebuild deck has such a high density of victory cards that the Saboteur becomes much more effective, and if the duchies are gone hitting Provinces is devastating. Optimal play probably requires you to through in your own Rebuild most of the time, but it's interesting that one of the weakest cards in the game is a decent counter to one of the strongest.
But you have to have a way to come back, so I would think alt-VP would need to be in the kingdom for this to work, right?
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I know I one time whooped AdamH with Rebuild when he went Workshop/Gardens, in case that helps.
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Ninja'd by BadAssMutha, more or less. I disagree with his advice about buying Estates though, I think you usually don't want to do that.
You're probably right that it's usually the case that you don't need/want another Estate. It can be something worth keeping an eye on, though - I know I looked foolish the first few times I tried a Rebuild deck, and tried to go Estate -> Duchy by naming Duchy, but didn't have anymore Estates to Rebuild. If your deck is out of Estates with at least 3 Duchies left in the pile, Estate may be the way to go with <$5. You'll probably get a chance to Rebuild it, and it could win you the Duchy split. However, if the Estate doesn't get Rebuilt, it becomes a liability. It can cause you to waste Rebuild plays either by naming Estate and Rebuilding Province -> Province, or by naming Province and having to Rebuild Estate -> Estate (which is even more of a waste).
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1.) What I meant is that card strength is still the same and if you're lucky to get an early $6, that may be huge. The problem is getting to $6. If there's a strong attack, you may not even get to $6 for a while what makes Rebuild probably weak. I'm also not that surprised that it loses to BM+Smithy, but 75-25 is more than I expected. But all the wins where probably out of an early $6 after the first reshuffle. Anyway, it makes the card itself not more interesting or balanced. Changing the cost doesn't fix it. That's exectly what I meant.
Thanks for the clarification, now I see what you mean. I haven't looked into the simulation details of getting an early $6, but I think I would usually prefer Gold on an early $6 to a $6 Rebuild anyway: Rebuild is only really good when you can get several, since you have to "clean up" the Estates first (which only nets you 2 VP instead of 3 VP) and since you have to rush to the Provinces against engines; and one Rebuild doesn't help you to get another since it actually weakens your economy, unlike Gold. But I agree that a price change doesn't make the card any more interesting.
2.) I'm glad that you can confirm that the +1 Action matters, that's what I suspected. That lets me believe that a terminal Rebuild would be a valid fix for the card. It seems still strong, but not that overpowered anymore.
Yes, I'd also try this as a fix. I think this change might even make it a bit weak, since e.g. BM+Smithy is not competitive on most boards, and since Rebuild becomes weaker in engines.
The question is, is it an interesting, fun card? Simulations won't be able to determine that. It's worth noting that terminal Rebuild was tested and nobody won a game with it.
The root problem with Rebuild is that it forces you to buy Duchies to fuel it. Spending your $5 buys on Duchies is boring.
EDIT: Let me try to explain that further. I enjoy Duchy dancing as much as the next guy; probably significantly more, actually. But spending all your non-Rebuild buys on Duchies is dull. Duke doesn't really have this issue since you need some kind of support to go Duke. You can't just buy Duchies from the get-go or you'll choke. Rebuild doesn't really have that issue. So its strength is part of the problem, but even if you make it terminal or raise its cost, the Duchy rush still remains.
You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).
I'd expect the "no-fun" TerminalRebuild-Duchy rush to lose against most engines based on the comparison to BM-Smithy. But you could add one or two TerminalRebuilds to many decks as a mid-game addition like Harem or Great Hall, or try to build a Rebuild semi-engine with Villages or Throne Rooms, which seems potentially much more fun to me. But it's true that you'd have to playtest it to determine if the fix is worth it - can someone convince Goko to implement it? ;)
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You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).
Bear in mind that Rebuild is a Dark Ages card, so you have to take into account the fairly likely scenario that you have no starting Estates to upgrade.
Even in an Estate game, if you take the route of waiting until mid to late game to start rebuilding, there may not be enough Duchies left to rebuild your Estates into.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?
That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.
What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway?
Get Rebuild as quickly as possible. Turn Estates into Duchies (name Duchy for Rebuild) while buying more Rebuilds (usually around 3 total). As Duchies run out, you can either pick up another Estate if you can turn it into a Duchy, or just buy a Duchy instead of a Rebuild. You need at least 4 of the Duchies, if you get 5, you've basically won the game. Now turn Duchies into Provinces (name Province) at your leisure. The Duchy split is super-important since it's usually the only thing you can Rebuild into Province, so definitely Rebuild Estate into Duchy before doing Duchy to Province. At $5 or more either buy Duchy or Rebuild, with less, buy a couple of Silvers to start, then any non-terminal sifter (Warehouse is great, Cellar is OK, things like Spice Merchant can help you clear out junk copper).
Clarification: This is how to play a Rebuild mirror. In a non-mirror, you usually want to go for Provinces as fast as you can (your first Estate to Duchy to Province, then your next Estate, etc., instead of all Estates into Duchies, and then all Duchies into Provinces). The reason that Rebuild is as strong as it is is because of threat that the non-mirror imposes of being able to blaze through the Province pile, reducing the total number of VP on the board before the opponent can do anything to catch up. Since a (non-cursing, no trashing attack) game of Dominion is won when you have half the points on the board, Rebuild in a non-mirror grabs you a few big points fast and trashes the rest of the victory cards so that you can quickly hit half the total points remaining.
This is also why I really like shark_bait's suggestion (I think someone else had suggested it in another thread before as well?) of returning the victory cards to the piles instead of trashing them; it means that there is still 86 VP total no matter how fast you get to the Provinces. Rebuild mirrors might still play out roughly the same, but it's okay because the non-mirror is no longer such a dangerous situation for the non-Rebuild player. The Rebuild player will still grab Provinces quickly, but then they need to find a way to end the game. It would be worth playtesting, I could see it still being a really strong card, but I think it would be a lot more reasonable with that change.
Edit: pst made the same suggestion in this thread:
I wonder what would happen if Rebuild didn't trash cards, but instead returned them to the supply. I think that would give the intended (?) effect without the rush.
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Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher. Has that option been discussed before?
This would also give a funny interaction with Overgrown Estate, which as the only victory card that can't be returned to the supply (puzzle: find the edge case), would become an endless Estate generator. With the modified Rebuild, that might actually be useful, because in a mirror the Duchy pile won't deplete like it does now (on account of returning Duchies instead of trashing them), so having lots of Estates to grow up to Provinces would actually be useful.
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Imagine a Rebuild where instead of trashing a VP card you returned one to the supply gaining one costing $3 higher. Has that option been discussed before?
This would also give a funny interaction with Overgrown Estate, which as the only victory card that can't be returned to the supply (puzzle: find the edge case), would become an endless Estate generator. With the modified Rebuild, that might actually be useful, because in a mirror the Duchy pile won't deplete like it does now (on account of returning Duchies instead of trashing them), so having lots of Estates to grow up to Provinces would actually be useful.
Edge case: Black Market
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
ragingduckd's article is the canonical resource. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8398.0)
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You don't need to buy Duchies if you buy Rebuild only in the mid- to late game; you'll have enough fuel for the rest of the game just by upgrading the starting Estates (if you didn't trash them in the early game already).
Bear in mind that Rebuild is a Dark Ages card, so you have to take into account the fairly likely scenario that you have no starting Estates to upgrade.
Okay, I was assuming all-random kingdoms, which usually have starting Estates. But even with Shelters you can still get 3 Rebuild uses out of the one Overgrown Estate.
Even in an Estate game, if you take the route of waiting until mid to late game to start rebuilding, there may not be enough Duchies left to rebuild your Estates into.
Occasionally, yes; so it's not an automatic buy. But usually Duchies don't run out long before the game ends if the Duchy rush is not viable, I think.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?
That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.
What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
That's an interesting idea. I think 3P should be enough, since 4P is even harder to get than $6. And the potion is useless for buying Duchies.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but... what if Rebuild was a Potion-cost card?
That would limit the number you could easily pick up per shuffle and it's definitely strong enough to consider buying a Potion even if it's the only Potion-cost card.
What should it cost? 3P or 4P?
That's an interesting idea. I think 3P should be enough, since 4P is even harder to get than $6. And the potion is useless for buying Duchies.
I agree with this being an interesting possibility. 4P seems far too weak - it's harder to reach than $6, and we already know Rebuild probably isn't so strong at $6. I'm tempted to say that actually 2P might be okay. (One of) The thing that makes Rebuild so strong is that you can grab a critical mass of them quickly. Just putting P in the cost is enough to limit that.
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Guys, I think we're getting tunnel-vision around the idea of nerfing the card. Look at Donald's quote: He's saying an OP card is OK, as long as it's interesting. Fixing Rebuild could involve making it less powerful, but it could also involve making it more interesting. You'll notice from the histories that he tends to redesign rather than rebalance. Not to put Donald's opinions up on a pedestal, but I think that tendency of his is a pretty big part of why Dominion is fun.
Rebuild, by rights, should be an interesting cards, but it was solved. Tinkering with cost or action may address the undue influence it has on the game, but it doesn't impact that the card itself is solved. I think the proper way to fix Rebuild is to make it less trivial to play it correctly.
LastFootnote's point is a good one: As long as all your $5-hands have to go to Duchies and not $5-actions, your deck will be boring. Making Rebuild itself cost $6 or $3P doesn't address this problem. I'm not sure that return-to-supply fixes this either.
I think the only way to fix this issue is to let Rebuild "skip" Duchy somehow in the progression from Estate to Province. Like, I dunno, by using some sort of token or mat to less you "store up" plays of Rebuild, and then two plays of Rebuild could take one Estate directly to a Province. Or something.
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Fixing Rebuild could involve making it less powerful, but it could also involve making it more interesting. You'll notice from the histories that he tends to redesign rather than rebalance.
Rebuild, by rights, should be an interesting cards, but it was solved. Tinkering with cost or action may address the undue influence it has on the game, but it doesn't impact that the card itself is solved. I think the proper way to fix Rebuild is to make it less trivial to play it correctly.
LastFootnote's point is a good one: As long as all your $5-hands have to go to Duchies and not $5-actions, your deck will be boring. Making Rebuild itself cost $6 or $3P doesn't address this problem. I'm not sure that return-to-supply fixes this either.
I think the only way to fix this issue is to let Rebuild "skip" Duchy somehow in the progression from Estate to Province. Like, I dunno, by using some sort of token or mat to less you "store up" plays of Rebuild, and then two plays of Rebuild could take one Estate directly to a Province. Or something.
Interesting idea. Here's an easy way you could avoid using a token or mat:
Rebuild cost $6 action (It probably should still cost 6 with this change...)
+1 action
Choose one:
-Trash a victory card and gain an action or treasure costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
- or Trash an action or treasure and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
Or... One of Rebuild's biggest strengths is that it lets you look through your deck for a card to rebuild. You could simply remove that ability and have to have something in your hand to rebuild. That's more nerfing the card than making it more interesting though.
Re: potion costs: To me potions costs are more thematic than just making it less easily accessable. Familiars, golems, etc are magical things, so you need something more than ordinary treasure to get them. I don't think it would fit with rebuild.
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So, having played very little Dark Ages due to no more Iso... how do you play Rebuild anyway? Is it just: (Assuming 3/4) Open Silver/Silver equivalent; buy Rebuild with your first few $5s (how many?) then buy Duchies with $5; buy Silver or equivalent with < $5? Do you want to turn Estates into Duchies or Duchies into Provinces first?
Usually that is how you play it. You can also sneak in a terminal in there since Rebuild is no terminal, but Sea Hag or whatever tends to not do much good since it doesn't provide $
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Guys, I think we're getting tunnel-vision around the idea of nerfing the card. Look at Donald's quote: He's saying an OP card is OK, as long as it's interesting. Fixing Rebuild could involve making it less powerful, but it could also involve making it more interesting. You'll notice from the histories that he tends to redesign rather than rebalance. Not to put Donald's opinions up on a pedestal, but I think that tendency of his is a pretty big part of why Dominion is fun.
Rebuild, by rights, should be an interesting cards, but it was solved. Tinkering with cost or action may address the undue influence it has on the game, but it doesn't impact that the card itself is solved. I think the proper way to fix Rebuild is to make it less trivial to play it correctly.
LastFootnote's point is a good one: As long as all your $5-hands have to go to Duchies and not $5-actions, your deck will be boring. Making Rebuild itself cost $6 or $3P doesn't address this problem. I'm not sure that return-to-supply fixes this either.
I understand your point, but I don't necessarly agree. I think the main "spirit" of the card should not be changed, Rebuild's main spirit is that all your $5 hands have to go to duchies and actually, that is interesting. It's a very different way to play the game. And that's why I think Rebuild should keep being Rebuild, the only thing I would change is the cost (potion cost is a very interesting idea) or the +action maybe but I don't like this idea that much.
I'm convinced that if Rebuild cost more, the single Rebuild strategy would not work anymore and we would play rebuild differently, but still in a "rebuild" way which is, at the base, interesting.
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I still think that Rebuild games are interesting enough. If you have all of the expansions, about 5% of games have Rebuild in them, and that's not too much IMO. The strategy is simple, but the tactical decisions can be very difficult at times, and that's not usually true for Dominion, so I think it's pretty refreshing.
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Yes, Rebuild games are more tactical, but I don't experience them as more fun.
I can understand if some people do though.
Most of the time, it's just a question of who can hit $5 more often.
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I don't think Rebuild games are more tactical than regular games, I just think they are less strategical and that may make tactics relatively more important for winning, but that also happens with shuffle luck being extremely important in Rebuild games. I think Rebuild mirrors are as interesting as Gardens/IW rush mirrors, so it would be good if they appear with the same really low percentage, not 5%.
I would like to back the idea to return the cards to the supply instead of trashing. However, it is important to notice that it will definitely affect itself by replenishing Duchies, so even mirror games are going to be affected, is not just a matter of leaving VP for the non-Rebuild player.
On the "how to play Rebuild" issue, I am surprised that the best company for Rebuild was not mentioned: Scheme. I would probably still open Silver/Silver equivalent or Silver/good Sifter because $5 is super important and Scheme does not help, but then I would get Scheme's at any <5. Maybe one Estate if I am out and there are plenty of Duchies.
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1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]
Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:
TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.
It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).
I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
I am glad you mentioned the simulation results, but I want to mention that I don't think the simulations show that Rebuild is too weak at $6. Just like with Big Money, a Rebuild strategy gets better with the addition of almost any <$5 card, so testing Rebuild only in the non-terminal $6 case doesn't show that it's weak. That would be like saying Expand only is weak because it loses to Smithy. It misses that Rebuild is still going to be a great addition to consider to almost any engine-based deck that doesn't end with buying all the VP on one turn (Province-Duchy or Duchy-Duchy buys become a lot more potent if you threaten Rebuild next turn). We just don't see those decks because right now if a hybrid deck is viable, then it is almost certainly dominated by Rebuild-only.
And like Qvist, I am not really convinced a price change to $6 fixes it -- that's partly why I suggested Potion cost. Limiting the number of Rebuilds you can buy and forcing you to have a Potion around should make hybrid (i.e. interesting) strategies dominate pure Rebuild more often instead of the other way around. Even at $3P with Familiar in the kingdom, I would often consider Rebuild.
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I don't think Rebuild games are more tactical than regular games, I just think they are less strategical and that may make tactics relatively more important for winning, but that also happens with shuffle luck being extremely important in Rebuild games. I think Rebuild mirrors are as interesting as Gardens/IW rush mirrors, so it would be good if they appear with the same really low percentage, not 5%.
I'd really like it if Gardens/IW happened more often.
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Make it cost $4 and only let it hit cards in hand?
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Is it such a big deal ? I mean, other cards have the "always a good choice" aspect - Thinking of Rebuild, Minion, Governor, Cultist ... Of course each of them also has a downside when certain stuff is on the board.
An interesting fact is that this card came into play with Dark ages - when the start with estates "disappeared". So maybe in order to get it really interesting, if Rebuild is in the deck, you should be obliged to play with shelters ... ?
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I just houseruled Rebuild to cost $6, and I think it works better. It's still good, but it's harder to build your whole strategy around the one card that way.
I am pretty sure Rebuild at 6 is a lot worse for the game than it is on 5. Like Familiar at 3p is a lot worse for the game than Familiar at 2p would be.
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After a year or so to play with Rebuild, I think my least favorite thing about it is just that it doesn't combo in an interesting way with anything else. Like, I can run a conspirator engine with Rebuild, but the Rebuild doesn't gel with it in an interesting way like Warehouse or something. Sure, there are good Rebuild combos, but they basically just end up supporting Rebuild and it's rarely the other way around. Even the fact that Rebuild cycles so much feels like a crapshoot since you rarely know exactly how many cards it will cycle. I dunno. I'll still play with it, but it's definitely in the bottom 3 as far as being interesting goes.
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
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Victory tokens can counter Rebuild pretty hard in my experience.
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Countering rebuild takes a very strong engine without alt VP or a decently strong engine with alt VP (depending on how good the alt VP is).
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The "typical" KC Saboteur rush game thingy also makes rebuild relatively useless. :p
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
Lots of engines are sufficiently fast, alt VP is very helpful here. There are also strong BM decks which can snap up 4 Provinces and a Duchy in enough time. I'm not as sure about the BM claim, maybe there have been simulations that show otherwise.
The Rebuild dominance is a little bit exaggerated in these discussions. I think people are too willing to drop into the Rebuild mirrors, instead of looking for other options, but it is a very strong strategy so it's hard to blame them.
I like Rebuild games because they are very fast, but still have some interesting decisions, and my favorite part of Dominion is reading the kingdom. It's quite fun to try and beat a supposed "dominating" strategy with something different.
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
There are also strong BM decks which can snap up 4 Provinces and a Duchy in enough time. I'm not as sure about the BM claim, maybe there have been simulations that show otherwise.
I think you need a lot, standard Wharf-Bank wins by a bit only...
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1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]
Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:
TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.
It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).
I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
I am glad you mentioned the simulation results, but I want to mention that I don't think the simulations show that Rebuild is too weak at $6. Just like with Big Money, a Rebuild strategy gets better with the addition of almost any <$5 card, so testing Rebuild only in the non-terminal $6 case doesn't show that it's weak. That would be like saying Expand only is weak because it loses to Smithy. It misses that Rebuild is still going to be a great addition to consider to almost any engine-based deck that doesn't end with buying all the VP on one turn (Province-Duchy or Duchy-Duchy buys become a lot more potent if you threaten Rebuild next turn). We just don't see those decks because right now if a hybrid deck is viable, then it is almost certainly dominated by Rebuild-only.
Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
In engines, Rebuild is also usually weaker than Gold - instead of Rebuilding a Duchy, you can just use the Gold to buy Province instead of Duchy directly, and Rebuild is dead if you draw all your Duchies to hand (or if you don't have a Duchy in your deck). So at $6, Rebuild may well be too weak to matter on most boards. (But I'd like to be convinced otherwise...)
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
There are also strong BM decks which can snap up 4 Provinces and a Duchy in enough time. I'm not as sure about the BM claim, maybe there have been simulations that show otherwise.
I think you need a lot, standard Wharf-Bank wins by a bit only...
Indeed; only very strong combos like Beggars-Gardens and Masterpiece-Feodum convincingly beat Rebuild. DoubleWitch-BM beats Rebuild, but is beaten by "Witch-into-Rebuild"-BM, and similarly for Young Witch.
(Assuming no Shelters and Colonies, which do weaken Rebuild.)
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After a year or so to play with Rebuild, I think my least favorite thing about it is just that it doesn't combo in an interesting way with anything else. Like, I can run a conspirator engine with Rebuild, but the Rebuild doesn't gel with it in an interesting way like Warehouse or something. Sure, there are good Rebuild combos, but they basically just end up supporting Rebuild and it's rarely the other way around. Even the fact that Rebuild cycles so much feels like a crapshoot since you rarely know exactly how many cards it will cycle. I dunno. I'll still play with it, but it's definitely in the bottom 3 as far as being interesting goes.
Tunnel?
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(Assuming no Shelters [...], which do weaken Rebuild.)
Have you done extensive simulations? My experience tells me this specific claim--unfortunately a persistent myth--is utter nonsense, and the few limited simulations I've done show a few % difference at most, if I recall them correctly. So yeah, technically they weaken Rebuild, but almost never in a way that would have you switch strategies depending on whether there are Shelters or Estates (b.c. strategies that are close to 50% against Rebuild are so rare to begin with), which is the only criterion that should matter.
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(Assuming no Shelters [...], which do weaken Rebuild.)
Have you done extensive simulations? My experience tells me this specific claim--unfortunately a persistent myth--is utter nonsense, and the few limited simulations I've done show a few % difference at most, if I recall them correctly. So yeah, technically they weaken Rebuild, but almost never in a way that would have you switch strategies depending on whether there are Shelters or Estates (b.c. strategies that are close to 50% against Rebuild are so rare to begin with), which is the only criterion that should matter.
Well, there is also to consider that many other strategies are strengthen with Shelters instead of Estates. Especially engines with trashing, that can take advantage of both Necropolis and Overgrown Estate.
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I'm well aware that the knife cuts both ways.
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It helps Tunnel, sure, but that's just Gold gaining. It isn't an interesting engine or something you can do much with besides gaining the Gold. I'm not saying this isn't a powerful combo, it just isn't a fun one to play after the initial "oo, shiny."
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
Lots of engines are sufficiently fast, alt VP is very helpful here. There are also strong BM decks which can snap up 4 Provinces and a Duchy in enough time. I'm not as sure about the BM claim, maybe there have been simulations that show otherwise.
The Rebuild dominance is a little bit exaggerated in these discussions. I think people are too willing to drop into the Rebuild mirrors, instead of looking for other options, but it is a very strong strategy so it's hard to blame them.
I like Rebuild games because they are very fast, but still have some interesting decisions, and my favorite part of Dominion is reading the kingdom. It's quite fun to try and beat a supposed "dominating" strategy with something different.
I do in fact think Rebuild is a bit underrated by good players, partly due to contrarianism and a general dislike of the card, and partly because of the bolded stuff. It's quite easy to win with a strategy that's 40-60 against Rebuild and convince yourself that it was superior.
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1.) Well, some suggested to make it cost $6. At first I thought this is a valid move, but later I realised that it probably makes Rebuild games only worse because the strength of the card is the same and if someone gets a lucky $6 after the first reshuffle and your opponent not, he's maybe already miles ahead. So, it probably only adds variance and luck, that's not want I want to do.
Actually, Rebuild becomes extremely weak at $6, as DStu posted at the quoted BGG thread: BM-Rebuild loses 25-75 to BM-Smithy, and even loses narrowly to pure BM. I suppose it's because you rarely get to $6 in standard Rebuild games.
2.) So, it was clear to me that the card itself has to be fixed, not the cost. But I really don't want a totally different card, like the one Donald X. suggested. The only thing I came up with is removing the +1 Action because, honestly, the +1 Action barely matters, but it can matter. [...]
Surprisingly, the +1 Action matters quite a bit; I simulated "TerminalRebuild" recently on Dominiate:
TerminalRebuild loses to the strongest BM cards: Wharf, Goons, GhostShip, DoubleJack, all Cursers.
It essentially ties with Monument (51:49), Envoy (48.5:51.5), Smithy (52:48) and Courtyard (50:50), and wins against all other implemented one-card strategies (Militia, Masq., HP, Amb., Library, ...).
I suppose 1 or 2 self-collisions per game are enough to lose many narrow games, even in the absence of terminal support cards. This seems to be a suitable fix to make Rebuild non-dominant on most boards.
I am glad you mentioned the simulation results, but I want to mention that I don't think the simulations show that Rebuild is too weak at $6. Just like with Big Money, a Rebuild strategy gets better with the addition of almost any <$5 card, so testing Rebuild only in the non-terminal $6 case doesn't show that it's weak. That would be like saying Expand only is weak because it loses to Smithy. It misses that Rebuild is still going to be a great addition to consider to almost any engine-based deck that doesn't end with buying all the VP on one turn (Province-Duchy or Duchy-Duchy buys become a lot more potent if you threaten Rebuild next turn). We just don't see those decks because right now if a hybrid deck is viable, then it is almost certainly dominated by Rebuild-only.
Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
In engines, Rebuild is also usually weaker than Gold - instead of Rebuilding a Duchy, you can just use the Gold to buy Province instead of Duchy directly, and Rebuild is dead if you draw all your Duchies to hand (or if you don't have a Duchy in your deck). So at $6, Rebuild may well be too weak to matter on most boards. (But I'd like to be convinced otherwise...)
I don't agree here.
Playing Rebuild as soon as you draw it mitigates the problem. It would be horrible luck to always draw Rebuild after drawing all of your expandable green. Any one sifter completely eliminates the problem in engines that draw your deck.
Even one Rebuild can help engines tremendously in games where trashing, extra buys, or extra gains are light. Those starting Estates likely become Provinces by the end of the game, no problem. What's better than buying a Province? Rebuilding a starting Estate and buying a Province, of course! It sifts to get to new engine cards faster, if you are not drawing your deck. Rebuild also helps end the game on your own terms (like Apprentice, Remodel, Salvager, etc.) if you are ahead and just want to clear out those Provinces. In the endgame a lot of engines can clog and you are buying Duchies, anyway. Threatening draining the Provinces or getting 3 points or both can be huge. I think $6 Rebuild would still be plenty useful.
We just don't see these more hybrid decks too often when Rebuild is $5 because they are normally dominated by the easier to play all-Rebuild deck.
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We've talked a lot about Rebuild often completely dominating whatever kingdom it shows up in. In what (if any) situations can Rebuild be safely ignored?
Lots of engines are sufficiently fast, alt VP is very helpful here. There are also strong BM decks which can snap up 4 Provinces and a Duchy in enough time. I'm not as sure about the BM claim, maybe there have been simulations that show otherwise.
The Rebuild dominance is a little bit exaggerated in these discussions. I think people are too willing to drop into the Rebuild mirrors, instead of looking for other options, but it is a very strong strategy so it's hard to blame them.
I like Rebuild games because they are very fast, but still have some interesting decisions, and my favorite part of Dominion is reading the kingdom. It's quite fun to try and beat a supposed "dominating" strategy with something different.
I do in fact think Rebuild is a bit underrated by good players, partly due to contrarianism and a general dislike of the card, and partly because of the bolded stuff. It's quite easy to win with a strategy that's 40-60 against Rebuild and convince yourself that it was superior.
There's also the element that pure Rebuild is pretty easy to play and not mess up that makes it attractive. Kind of like big money. There may be better complicated strategies out there, but the vast majority of players wouldn't be able to execute the intricacies of the more complicated strategies, anyway.
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(Assuming no Shelters [...], which do weaken Rebuild.)
Have you done extensive simulations? My experience tells me this specific claim--unfortunately a persistent myth--is utter nonsense, and the few limited simulations I've done show a few % difference at most, if I recall them correctly. So yeah, technically they weaken Rebuild, but almost never in a way that would have you switch strategies depending on whether there are Shelters or Estates (b.c. strategies that are close to 50% against Rebuild are so rare to begin with), which is the only criterion that should matter.
No, I haven't simulated Shelters at all, since they're not implemented on Dominiate AFAIK; it was just a caveat to the results I mentioned. I'd be interested to see your simulation results. (So is my claim "utter nonsense" or "technically" correct? :P )
I'd hope that there are a few more BM strategies that beat Rebuild with Shelters, but I don't know any specific examples. Even a few percent difference can matter e.g. when playing Rebuild+weak support against Bank+Wharf.
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Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
Wait, what? I'm pretty certain that's false. Is your simulator foolishly buying Golds instead of Rebuilds and Duchies?
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Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
Wait, what? I'm pretty certain that's false. Is your simulator foolishly buying Golds instead of Rebuilds and Duchies?
I think he's talking about $6 Rebuild.
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Funny thing, I was thinking about the suggestion of removing the +Action on Rebuild, and I'm pretty sure that would actually make Rebuild more centralizing. If Rebuild were terminal, the effect would still be just as good in a lot of kingdoms, only now you'd have to pick between it and other potential terminals so you'd probably just default to picking Rebuild unless there was truly a better option.
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Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
Wait, what? I'm pretty certain that's false. Is your simulator foolishly buying Golds instead of Rebuilds and Duchies?
I think he's talking about $6 Rebuild.
Ah, gotcha. Sorry about that.
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[...]
In engines, Rebuild is also usually weaker than Gold - instead of Rebuilding a Duchy, you can just use the Gold to buy Province instead of Duchy directly, and Rebuild is dead if you draw all your Duchies to hand (or if you don't have a Duchy in your deck). So at $6, Rebuild may well be too weak to matter on most boards. (But I'd like to be convinced otherwise...)
I don't agree here.
Playing Rebuild as soon as you draw it mitigates the problem. It would be horrible luck to always draw Rebuild after drawing all of your expandable green. Any one sifter completely eliminates the problem in engines that draw your deck.
Yes, but most boards don't have a sifter. And even drawing Rebuild dead only every second or third time would weaken it immensely.
Even one Rebuild can help engines tremendously in games where trashing, extra buys, or extra gains are light. Those starting Estates likely become Provinces by the end of the game, no problem. What's better than buying a Province? Rebuilding a starting Estate and buying a Province, of course! It sifts to get to new engine cards faster, if you are not drawing your deck. Rebuild also helps end the game on your own terms (like Apprentice, Remodel, Salvager, etc.) if you are ahead and just want to clear out those Provinces. In the endgame a lot of engines can clog and you are buying Duchies, anyway. Threatening draining the Provinces or getting 3 points or both can be huge. I think $6 Rebuild would still be plenty useful.
Right, these may be reasons to go for a $6 Rebuild in an engine, at least when sifting is available. (But most games have a cheaper (Estate) trasher that may be preferrable to a $6 Estate trasher.)
Edit: However, "games where trashing, extra buys, or extra gains are light" tend to be BM games, not engines.
Edit^2: $6 Rebuild (as well as terminal Rebuild) could be very good in slogs, where it may be the only way to get to Provinces. If you get to $6 in slogs...
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Well, the simulations only consider BM, of course. But since Rebuild-BM loses to pure BM, I'd expect Rebuild+X-BM to lose against X-BM in most cases as well, because very few cards (like Rogue, Graverobber) combo specifically with Rebuild. And unlike Expand, Rebuild gets weaker, not stronger, in card-drawing engines due to more "collisions" with Duchies.
Wait, what? I'm pretty certain that's false. Is your simulator foolishly buying Golds instead of Rebuilds and Duchies?
I think he's talking about $6 Rebuild.
Ah, gotcha. Sorry about that.
Right, sorry for the confusion. Only $6 Rebuild loses to BM, while $5 Rebuild clearly wins, of course (with or without the +1 Action).
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Funny thing, I was thinking about the suggestion of removing the +Action on Rebuild, and I'm pretty sure that would actually make Rebuild more centralizing. If Rebuild were terminal, the effect would still be just as good in a lot of kingdoms, only now you'd have to pick between it and other potential terminals so you'd probably just default to picking Rebuild unless there was truly a better option.
This "danger" exists, but the default terminal Rebuild strategy turned out to be no stronger than BM-Council Room in my simulations (and much weaker than DoubleJack). So it'd rarely be the dominant strategy, I think; usually engines will be better.
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I have been thinking about this version:
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
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Look through your discard pile. You may trash one Victory card from it.
If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
So basically this trashes from your discard instead of your deck and you can target any card without the awkward "name a card you don't want to trash". Being able to trash any card looks stronger on paper, but you're shuffling way less, so you'll get to play Rebuild less often, and of course have to deal with the "Counting House" problem where you won't always have the card you want in your discard. So overall I wonder if this stronger, weaker, or somewhat similar.
Thoughts?
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What would happen if you simply removed the clunky 'name a card' thing? Would that make it completely unplayable?
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As far as counters to the card go, I just plays lots of Council Rooms and Governors for cards to ensure you've drawn your entire deck and there's nothing for your Rebuilds to hit. Works like a charm!
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What would happen if you simply removed the clunky 'name a card' thing? Would that make it completely unplayable?
It would make it less overpowered, but still way too strong, and swingier and less tactically interesting.
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I have been thinking about this version:
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
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Look through your discard pile. You may trash one Victory card from it.
If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
So basically this trashes from your discard instead of your deck and you can target any card without the awkward "name a card you don't want to trash". Being able to trash any card looks stronger on paper, but you're shuffling way less, so you'll get to play Rebuild less often, and of course have to deal with the "Counting House" problem where you won't always have the card you want in your discard. So overall I wonder if this stronger, weaker, or somewhat similar.
Thoughts?
I think this would make it weaker. You often have only two types of VP cards anyway, or don't mind so much whether you hit an Estate or a Duchy (in the non-mirror). Since you only look through the discard, you'd usually need two or three "rebuildable" cards instead of one, which is a significant nerf. You'd also lose the cycling. This might be interesting to try. (Alternatively, you could also nerf Rebuild by letting it only look through at most N cards, with N=10 maybe.)
What would happen if you simply removed the clunky 'name a card' thing? Would that make it completely unplayable?
It would make it less overpowered, but still way too strong, and swingier and less tactically interesting.
I don't think this would be too strong - you'd unwillingly hit a Province maybe every second time, so Rebuild is useless much more often than with terminal Rebuild. (OTOH, it would speed up the game even more.) But I agree that it'd be swingier and even more boring, so no a good fix.
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I don't think this would be too strong - you'd unwillingly hit a Province maybe every second time, so Rebuild is useless much more often than with terminal Rebuild.
If it's not a mirror, hitting Province isn't too bad for you because it still contributes to emptying the Province pile.
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I don't think this would be too strong - you'd unwillingly hit a Province maybe every second time, so Rebuild is useless much more often than with terminal Rebuild.
If it's not a mirror, hitting Province isn't too bad for you because it still contributes to emptying the Province pile.
But if you often hit Province, emptying the Province pile is actually bad because you're probably losing. Rebuild isn't that good if it only nets you 1 or 1.5 VP per play - I'd rather play Monument or Ironworks-Great Hall...
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Make it cost $4 and only let it hit cards in hand?
I'll just repost this since it was ignored (listen to me memememememe).
In this version, the card is very strong only if it has the right support, which I think makes it much more interesting. I think in circumstances, this version might be even stronger, but you could probably figure out what those circumstances were and find ways to nerd them (eg putting the upgraded cards aside until clean up,so you can't rebuild the same card more than once).
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And it would make Rebuild combo with Scout!
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And it would make Rebuild combo with Scout!
yeah, I never buy scout when rebuild is on the board b/c of this anti-synergy.
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And it would make Rebuild combo with Scout!
yeah, I never buy scout when rebuild is on the board b/c of this anti-synergy.
Yeah, I mean, I usually try to go for scout before they run out, but man, Rebuild just really destroys any hope of making a viable scout-based deck...
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Actually Rebuild has pretty nice synergy with Scout. You can Rebuild your opening Estates into Duchies, and when the Duchies have run out, Rebuild your Duchies into Estates and run them out. After that, Scout becomes a Ruined Village (with some top ordering), which is the best village in the game because it gives you better reshuffle control and is always good, even if you draw it with just one Action card unlike the other villages which require 2 other Action cards before their full power can be utilized.
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Actually Rebuild has pretty nice synergy with Scout. You can Rebuild your opening Estates into Duchies, and when the Duchies have run out, Rebuild your Duchies into Estates and run them out. After that, Scout becomes a Ruined Village (with some top ordering), which is the best village in the game because it gives you better reshuffle control and is always good, even if you draw it with just one Action card unlike the other villages which require 2 other Action cards before their full power can be utilized.
Wow this is blatantly false. Since Scout reorders the top, you lose the superlative shuffle control of Ruined Village!
The rest looks accurate though.
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You can Rebuild your opening Estates into Duchies, and when the Duchies have run out, Rebuild your Duchies into Estates and run them out.
This is very dangerous, because Scout is likely to run out as well.
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Wow this is blatantly false. Since Scout reorders the top, you lose the superlative shuffle control of Ruined Village!
Yeah, if Scout was the only card in your deck, but you also have Rebuild! They're both like Ruined Village, but you can play Scout when you want a reshuffle mid-turn and a Rebuild when you want a reshuffle after the turn. Awesome shuffle control combo there.
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I have been thinking about this version:
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
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Look through your discard pile. You may trash one Victory card from it.
If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
So basically this trashes from your discard instead of your deck and you can target any card without the awkward "name a card you don't want to trash". Being able to trash any card looks stronger on paper, but you're shuffling way less, so you'll get to play Rebuild less often, and of course have to deal with the "Counting House" problem where you won't always have the card you want in your discard. So overall I wonder if this stronger, weaker, or somewhat similar.
Thoughts?
I like this one. It would make rebuild vary more in strength depending on the kingdom in the same way tunnel does - goes great with sifters and counters discard attacks. What about making it like hermit and letting you choose the trash or your hand?
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Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
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I have been thinking about this version:
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
-------------------
Look through your discard pile. You may trash one Victory card from it.
If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
So basically this trashes from your discard instead of your deck and you can target any card without the awkward "name a card you don't want to trash". Being able to trash any card looks stronger on paper, but you're shuffling way less, so you'll get to play Rebuild less often, and of course have to deal with the "Counting House" problem where you won't always have the card you want in your discard. So overall I wonder if this stronger, weaker, or somewhat similar.
Thoughts?
I like this one. It would make rebuild vary more in strength depending on the kingdom in the same way tunnel does - goes great with sifters and counters discard attacks. What about making it like hermit and letting you choose the trash or your hand?
Making it like Hermit could work.
Honestly I don't know without playtesting, but to me one if Rebuild's strengths is its accelerated shuffling.
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Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
Yes, and Donald X actually tested terminal Rebuild and rejected it, so I don't know why people are so tempted to re-introduce it.
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Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
Yes, and Donald X actually tested terminal Rebuild and rejected it, so I don't know why people are so tempted to re-introduce it.
Because by his own admission neither version was thoroughly playtested?
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Rebuild
$5 Action
+1 Action
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Rebuild. Discard the other cards. Trash the Rebuild and gain a Rebuild from the Rebuild variant pile.
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Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
Yes, and Donald X actually tested terminal Rebuild and rejected it, so I don't know why people are so tempted to re-introduce it.
I was just thinking about how unusual Rebuild is relative to the rest of the cards in the remodel family. Every other one works on something in your hand, and the only other one that is nonterminal is upgrade, which only lets you go +1 cost.
Every other Remodel variant has basically some small bonus - remake lets you go twice, upgrade is a cantrip, mine puts the card in your hand but only treasure, procession lets you play the card twice. And then bam, here comes Rebuild, it's nonterminal, it doesn't need a card in hand, and it give you insane deck cycling.
It's interesting too that since the base game there has always been Mine, the treasure specific remodel that gave you +3 cost and the in-hand bonus, but the action-specific remodel (Graverobber), and victory-card specific one came at the very end.
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I'd say Procession is the Action-specific Remodel.
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I'd say Procession is the Action-specific Remodel.
Graverobber is the Action-specific Expand, in the way that Mine and Rebuild are the Treasure- and Victory-specific Expands.
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But Graverobber isn't action specific.
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I'd say Procession is the Action-specific Remodel.
Graverobber is the Action-specific Expand, in the way that Mine and Rebuild are the Treasure- and Victory-specific Expands.
Right, that was the framework I was thinking through when I wrote that - you have Remodel and Expand as the general purpose cards, and Mine, Rebuild, and Graverobber sitting between them; giving you +3 but only on certain cards. (Although I did not realize Graverobber let you gain non-actions, I'm still new to DA)
At any rate Rebuild still seems rather exceptional to me in terms of what you get relative to other Remodel-family cards. Maybe the thought was that it needed some extra oomph because it doesn't actually improve your deck, just gives you more points.
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The old Rebuild would have been a general Remodel for cards not in your hand. I think it's interesting that Silver would be a great target for such a card, even though it's one of the worst targets for Remodel.
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But Graverobber isn't action specific.
I mean, like, "trash an Action card from your hand".
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Ah. I imagine that LastFootnote mentioned Procession both its input and output are Actions, just as Mine's are Treasures and Rebuild's are Victories.
I had never thought of Procession in this way, but it really a strikingly elegant way of designing a dedicated Action upgrader.
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I had never thought of Procession in this way, but it really a strikingly elegant way of designing a dedicated Action upgrader.
I always have this idea to design a TfB card which gives a benefit based on what the card that you trash does (rather than just the cost or type of the card), but the result always comes out looking like Procession. It really is a wonderful card.
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Ah. I imagine that LastFootnote mentioned Procession both its input and output are Actions, just as Mine's are Treasures and Rebuild's are Victories.
I had never thought of Procession in this way, but it really a strikingly elegant way of designing a dedicated Action upgrader.
Exactly.
Concept: A card that upgrades Action cards.
Problem: People want to play their Action cards, not trash them.
Solution: Have the card play the target Action before upgrading it. Twice.
Mine and Rebuild upgrade their respective card types by $3 because that's the necessary threshold on most boards. Actions at adjacent costs are the norm, so an upgrade of $1 makes sense.
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I had never thought of Procession in this way, but it really a strikingly elegant way of designing a dedicated Action upgrader.
I always have this idea to design a TfB card which gives a benefit based on what the card that you trash does (rather than just the cost or type of the card), but the result always comes out looking like Procession. It really is a wonderful card.
Oh man, this happens to me all the time. Trying to fix up a card often turns it into an existing published card.
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Ah. I imagine that LastFootnote mentioned Procession both its input and output are Actions, just as Mine's are Treasures and Rebuild's are Victories.
I had never thought of Procession in this way, but it really a strikingly elegant way of designing a dedicated Action upgrader.
Exactly.
Concept: A card that upgrades Action cards.
Problem: People want to play their Action cards, not trash them.
Solution: Have the card play the target Action before upgrading it. Twice.
Mine and Rebuild upgrade their respective card types by $3 because that's the necessary threshold on most boards. Actions at adjacent costs are the norm, so an upgrade of $1 makes sense.
With a few exceptions, higher priced Treasures/Victories are strictly better, so "up to" isn't much of a problem. With actions, if Procession let you upgrade "up to" $1 more that would be way stronger. And if you made it upgrade by exactly $2 (or exactly $3) you would hit dead ends too quickly, perhaps.
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With a few exceptions, higher priced Treasures/Victories are strictly better, so "up to" isn't much of a problem. With actions, if Procession let you upgrade "up to" $1 more that would be way stronger. And if you made it upgrade by exactly $2 (or exactly $3) you would hit dead ends too quickly, perhaps.
In particular, it would make Procession extremely close to "strictly better than Throne Room" (is not because of the "while in play" clauses and Peddler, HoP and such) and I like it that they both cost the same, especially when they appear together and I have to decide when/if to buy each. Having TR available also really makes you learn to use Procession properly.
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To be honest, I don't care that much about what Donald X. says about rebuild. He didn't playtest it enough before the deadline? Well, that makes we wonder why in hell he should have deeply playtested any variant of rebuild after the redactional deadline. Sure, he knows more about Dominion than most of us do - but then again, he doesn't know everything.
My opinion about Rebuild is that the best possible variant is the card we have right now.
The biggest downside is that it vastly reduces strategic decisions, and so, luck gets more important. So far, so true - but is that really such a big problem? I mean, if we don't want to have luck involved, we should play chess. In my opinion, the most important problem with luck is that you don't have to waste too much time in a situation you didn't deserve. But this usually never happens with rebuild, as it leads to very fast games. You might get knocked out by a player 15 levels below, who plays straight turbo rebuild, but probably the only consequence will be, that two minutes of your dominion life might be slightly boring. (Sure, your rating will drop right now, but in the long run, every player will get the same portion of luck).
This is maybe what I like most about the actual version of rebuild: The number of interesting decisions per minute you have to make is pretty high. Most of them are rather tactical than strategical, but that accentuates the amazing variety dominion games can have.
If I play against a player 10 Levels weaker than me, I prefer to have a rebuild battle than a scryingPool-Hamlet-Storeroom-Board.
With rebuild, I might lose 40%, but there will probably some interesting tactical moments, and 4 minutes later, I can play a new board.
With the mentioned engine, I might lose only 30%, but the risk to watch (or play) a boring engine with tons of simple decisions, ending after half an hour, is much higher.
tl;dr: A slightly more luck-based card leading to a simpler, but fast game, with some tricky decisions left, is an interesting diversification, not a problem.
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The biggest problem is not that Rebuild reduces strategic decisions. It's that Rebuild games are boring and mostly play out the same because 1) almost no cards combo with Rebuild and 2) Rebuild shrugs off almost all attacks.
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The biggest problem is not that Rebuild reduces strategic decisions. It's that Rebuild games are boring and mostly play out the same because 1) almost no cards combo with Rebuild and 2) Rebuild shrugs off almost all attacks.
Strategy-wise, yes, but the tactical moves vary.
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The biggest problem is not that Rebuild reduces strategic decisions. It's that Rebuild games are boring and mostly play out the same because 1) almost no cards combo with Rebuild and 2) Rebuild shrugs off almost all attacks.
Strategy-wise, yes, but the tactical moves vary.
But not in a way that most players find enjoyable, I think. I understand that some players enjoy the tactics of a Rebuild game. I also love tactical decisions, which is why I'm so fond of Hinterlands. But I get sick of making the exact same set of tactical decisions pretty fast.
The main draw of Dominion is the sheer variety inherent in it. When one card takes over almost every board it appears on, it works against that. It's like Donald said, the other cards are too unlikely to get involved in your Rebuild deck.
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant. There is this sense of the published cards being the chosen ones, and that at most we may wish to tweak them. Yet Donald's perspective is different. He starts from various large collections of card ideas without any of them being particularly special. For him, if Rebuild turns out to be unbalanced, the natural solution is to throw out Rebuild and use Card Idea X instead, rather than endlessly tweaking Rebuild until it works.
On the other hand, for the purposes of forum discussion, tweaks provide a much more manageable scope than all of the possible replacement cards.
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant. There is this sense of the published cards being the chosen ones, and that at most we may wish to tweak them. Yet Donald's perspective is different. He starts from various large collections of card ideas without any of them being particularly special. For him, if Rebuild turns out to be unbalanced, the natural solution is to throw out Rebuild and use Card Idea X instead, rather than endlessly tweaking Rebuild until it works.
On the other hand, for the purposes of forum discussion, tweaks provide a much more manageable scope than all of the possible replacement cards.
Exactly. If it were possible, I'd just go ahead and use the card he suggested in the BGG thread, boom done. (But of course that's not possible on Goko.)
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant. There is this sense of the published cards being the chosen ones, and that at most we may wish to tweak them. Yet Donald's perspective is different. He starts from various large collections of card ideas without any of them being particularly special. For him, if Rebuild turns out to be unbalanced, the natural solution is to throw out Rebuild and use Card Idea X instead, rather than endlessly tweaking Rebuild until it works.
But Donald did consider terminal Rebuild unbalanced and (unfortunately) tweaked it to the current version, instead of replacing it by a different card. Only now that this does turn out to be unbalanced in the other direction does he mention a different card idea as a possible replacement.
Donald's alternative Rebuild to me seems like a not-too-interesting Lookout variant with potentially even higher luck factor - instead of the remote risk of trashing a Province, you may be lucky to rebuild a Gold in the late game, or unlucky and only reveal Coppers. I'm not sure if it's really more interesting than a fixed Rebuild; back then, Donald's playtesters didn't think so (of course, they already considered Rebuild fixed). Maybe LastFootnote has some experience playing with his "Build" now...
On the other hand, for the purposes of forum discussion, tweaks provide a much more manageable scope than all of the possible replacement cards.
Indeed; it's easier to judge a card that's similar to an existing one, I think.
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I don't have any experience with "Build" yet, but I can theorize a bit.
Although you could use it to turn Golds into Provinces (and sometimes should), it's pretty clearly not what the card is for. The gained card goes on your deck, so it's mostly for turning Estates, Silvers, etc. into useful cards on your deck. Might you turn up 3 Coppers? Sure. But then at least you get to discard 2 of them and if there's a useful $2 card available, that's actually way better than Remodeling that same Copper because you're not killing your current turn's buying power as much.
I'm guessing it was unpopular because it has the "good cards go by" issue and because it's hard to have a good plan for it. Which does kind of suck. It seems universally useful in the same way that Pillage does and—like Pillage—I don't really know when to buy it and when not to. When there are good $2 cards out, I guess; that's when I'd buy Build. ;)
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I always have this idea to design a TfB card which gives a benefit based on what the card that you trash does (rather than just the cost or type of the card), but the result always comes out looking like Procession.
Ah, like Counterfeit, you mean?
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.
However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.
However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling. But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them. For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA. Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser." But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.
However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling. But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them. For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA. Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser." But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?
To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.
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Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?
Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.
However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling. But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them. For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA. Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser." But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?
To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.
And in the absence of a compelling counterexample, a Victory-to-Victory remodel seems like a prime candidate. It would be pretty much useless on most boards if it couldn't at least perform Estate -> Duchy -> Province. But once that it possible, it becomes dangerously close to a single card strategy.
Most strategies consist of: 1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points. (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.) Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension. Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner. Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
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Most strategies consist of: 1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points. (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.) Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension. Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner. Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
Great observation.
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One thing that I found really interesting about Donald's comments relative to this thread's discussion is how adamant f.ds seems to be on keeping a Rebuild variant.
This is a completely valid point, it's easier to focus on what's in front of us, to the exclusion of the myriad infinities of other cards that could be created.
However, I think Rebuild gets a pass on this one. It's filling a conceptual "hole" that already existed before the card came out: A Remodel specific to Victory cards, analogous to Mine for money and Procession for Actions. We may be anchoring our ideas to the version that ended up printed, but if Rebuild hadn't come out and we were spinning ideas for cards that ought to exist, this is a niche that would get brought up with regularity.
I feel like it is easy -- having seen Rebuild -- to recognize it as a gap that needed filling. But I'm sure that there are any number of other cards which would have seemed indispensable of we had seen them. For instance, if Donald had published an on theme curser in DA. Right now we tell ourselves that Cultist is the on theme "curser." But if Donald had really published one, could you imagine someone arguing that it should have been omitted in favor of their fan card Rebuild?
To expound on this a bit more, there are many conceptual niches that seem obvious, but may never be filled because there is no good card to fill them. They are "bad ideas". Reactions that hurt the attacker, for instance. It's possible that a Victory-to-Victory remodel is such a concept.
And in the absence of a compelling counterexample, a Victory-to-Victory remodel seems like a prime candidate. It would be pretty much useless on most boards if it couldn't at least perform Estate -> Duchy -> Province. But once that it possible, it becomes dangerously close to a single card strategy.
Most strategies consist of: 1) build up your deck, 2) score lots of points. (There is sometimes a third objective: 3) run-out piles.) Part of the beauty of Dominion is that objectives 1 and 2 are in tension. Not only in practice when devising an effective strategy, but also in the game design sense that (at least for most people) objective 1 is more fun while objective 2 is ultimately what determines the winner. Any card which threatens to quickly skip over objective 1 and straight to objective 2 is likely to simultaneously suck the fun out of the game for the majority of players who are not interested in the subtle, fine detail of tactics.
I agree with your second paragraph, but isn't the main reason that Rebuild skips over the deck-building phase the fact that it digs for a victory card instead of using one that's in hand already? If it needed to be connected with a victory card the hard way, it'd be much more engine friendly. Though I assume that's the version Donald X thought of first and probably rejected it due to being weak or frustrating.
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I don't find Baron weak or frustrating.
I mean, you just get something back if it doesn't hit.
Granted, you may not always want an extra Estate, but it would have the same "problems".
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Davio brings up a good point. A from-hand Rebuild with a bonus if it fails (it doesn't even have to be a relatively weak bonus) might be a more interesting card.
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In fact, gaining an Estate just like Baron would make the most sense. Conceptually, you're rebuilding Nothing (worth $0) into an Estate.
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Well, in that case, you're just building, without the re-.
More than one card gains a Duchy (Count, Transmute), so I don't see a problem with more than one card gaining an Estate.
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It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
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Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?
Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
This is actually a pretty interesting idea - you would have on average 5 uses of Rebuild per game assuming your opponent mirrors you and there's no Throne Room/Rogue/etc, so the Rebuild strategy would get a lot weaker (but still doable, especially if it's not mirrored) while the card could still be used for other purposes. The card might need to be stronger than your suggestion, though; that's very similar to Island but a lot worse.
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It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
So this is where we're at?
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it. If you don't, gain an Estate, putting it in your hand.
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At that point I'd make all the gains go to hand. For symmetry if nothing else.
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Or we could just keep Rebuild's effect but adding a weak on-gain and / or on-trash effect.
We know that cursers and Looters hurts a little bit Rebuild but not too much. So, what about : "when you gain this, gain a ruin", or to make rebuild weaker against Saboteur / Knights : "when you trash this, gain a curse".
It would still make the Rebuild strategy very powerful, but less often at least.
Because as I said, I would not like changing the whole card. I want to have a rebuild that is exactly the same, just less often dominant.
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Oh well, playing with Shelters does mitigate a lot of Rebuild's power.
I recently played a game in which my opponent and me both ignored it, just because we had shelters and other $5's to get.
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It should gain the estate into your hand to make it more interesting in engines imho.
So this is where we're at?
Rebuild - $5
+1 Action
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it. If you don't, gain an Estate, putting it in your hand.
Why does no one listen to me? It's like you don't even care anymore...
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9976.msg325161#msg325161
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Rebuild's real power is in the fact that it gets to sift the deck until it finds a target.
So, possible nerfs are to either A)remove the targeting aspect so that it sifts until it finds the first VP or to B)remove the unlimited sifting aspect so that it can only reveal X number of cards from the deck.
A)
Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 more than it.
The first nerf option retains the unusually strong unlimited sifting which negates attacks but introduces the luck factor of hitting VPs you'd rather not hit. Removing the selectivity of the card's effect should go a long ways towards urging the player to seriously consider whether or not he should play the card on this particular turn. It presents way more tactical and strategic implementation but still overcomes any attacks. In this way it can keep its +1 action.
B)
Name a card. Reveal X cards from the top of your deck. If you revealed a Victory card that is not the named card trash it and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 more than it. Discard the other cards.
The second nerf option retains the unusually strong VP targeting so that it can be played with no fear of hitting the wrong VP target but presents the very real possibility that the revealed cards will not actually produce a viable target. Since the drawn cards are discarded the +1 action is not overly strong in this case either. This option opens up a real weakness to deck junking attacks but really counters attacks such as Rabble and Bureaucrat.
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What if it simply got rid of the "up to"? It would play differently with Alt-VP; otherwise the only difference would be that you can't turn Provinces into Provinces to accelerate the end.
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Terminal Rebuild makes it weaker, but worsens the Interestingness/Strength ratio. If Rebuild is terminal you can't pair it up with Scavenger, Horse Traders or Rogue, for example; the space of viable strategies becomes much more limited.
As I said above, Terminal Rebuild is weak enough that the "boring" Rebuild-BM is rarely the optimal strategy, which should increase the space of viable "interesting" strategies (though it does kill the Rebuild+TerminalAction-BM strategies).
But if you prefer to keep all of Rebuild's current interactions intact, I'd suggest making the card "semi-terminal" by using an "inverse Cultist clause":
Rebuild, $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.
You may play an Action from your hand other than Rebuild.
This would weaken Rebuild-BM and keep it weaker than Rebuild/Scavenger etc., so it's "strictly more interesting" than the published version IMO. It also has a curious synergy with every non-terminal Action card since these allow you to still play several Rebuilds in one turn.
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What if it simply got rid of the "up to"? It would play differently with Alt-VP; otherwise the only difference would be that you can't turn Provinces into Provinces to accelerate the end.
The better fix there is to stipulate that you have to gain a different card than the one you trashed. I'm not convinced it would make much difference either way.
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Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?
Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
This is actually surprisingly close to the card I submitted to the Treasure Chest Design Contest for Intrigue (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9563.0):
Visiting Dignitary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary and a Victory card costing up to $6.
I like a combination of the two that looks something like this:
Visiting Rebuilder
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary. Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 Coins more than it.
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Could Rebuild have worked in the "Remodel for victory cards" if it trashed itself on play?
Something like:
Rebuild
Action-$4
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a victory card. You may trash that card and gain a victory card costing up to $3 more than it, if you do trash this card.
This is actually surprisingly close to the card I submitted to the Treasure Chest Design Contest for Intrigue (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9563.0):
Visiting Dignitary
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary and a Victory card costing up to $6.
I like a combination of the two that looks something like this:
Visiting Rebuilder
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Trash this. Gain a Visiting Dignitary. Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Discard the other cards. Trash the Victory card and gain a Victory card costing up to 3 Coins more than it.
This sounds pretty nice IMO, but is it weak enough for $4? It's still basically just the current Rebuild except that it depletes the Rebuild pile and then becomes unusable.
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(Re-posting this for emphasis and clarity.)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg)
Rebuild is already a very wordy card. There's not a lot of extra space there. Furthermore, it's one of the most difficult Dominion cards to parse. Easy for us Dominion scholars, sure, but not for the casual player. Any suggested fix that makes Rebuild more complex is a non-starter. Rebuild does not deserve lots of tiny text. Its core concept (upgrading Victory cards) is not that compelling.
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I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...
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I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...
But Possession is interesting enough to warrant confusion. Rebuild is not. Just like what Donald said about how he would prefer powerful cards to be interesting, while Rebuild is powerful yet not interesting.
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I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...
It's a problem because players—especially casual ones—do not have infinite patience for parsing cards. I have playtested a lot of cards, and I know that the more text a card has and the harder it is to understand exactly what it does, the less people want to buy it. Scrying Pool also has this issue, as detailed in Donald's time machine blurb.
Scrying Pool did not originally have an attack. It got one because I felt the set should have two attacks, and the names were already in - it was a tight schedule and art was being made while I worked on the cards. "Scrying Pool" was the name that felt like it could attack, paired with a card that felt like it could attack (yes I could have replaced Golem with an attack, but that was not on the table, Golem was too awesome). Now did I really need two attacks? Not enough to muck up Scrying Pool. This change made the card slower, more wordy, and less special-seeming. Before it was this cool draw-lots-of-cards thing; now it's Spy, something something, some kind of Spy variant I think, I'll read the rest later. I would rather have the faster simpler cooler card. Again Spy itself is bad, it's too slow for what you get, and Scrying Pool's Spy is worse, because you've got card-drawing built-in to get you more of them.
A really wordy card has to have a very compelling mechanic to make up for it. "Take an extra turn with another player's deck" is compelling. "Dig for a Victory card to trash (except the one you name) and then gain a (probably) better Victory card" is not that compelling.
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I don't see why adding text should be a problem. The core concept of possession is easy to understand too...
So easy to understand that an entire page in the Alchemy manual is devoted to it.
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(Re-posting this for emphasis and clarity.)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg)
Rebuild is already a very wordy card. There's not a lot of extra space there. Furthermore, it's one of the most difficult Dominion cards to parse. Easy for us Dominion scholars, sure, but not for the casual player. Any suggested fix that makes Rebuild more complex is a non-starter. Rebuild does not deserve lots of tiny text. Its core concept (upgrading Victory cards) is not that compelling.
Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.
And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.
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Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.
And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.
I've already talked about Possession.
Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand (and to a lesser extent Saboteur, etc.) get a pass because Attacks have to ramp up in complexity faster than other cards. There are really only 4 ways to do an attack, yet about 1 out of every 6 Kingdom cards is an Attack card in order to keep the interaction level of the game as high as it is. That means that in order to keep making unique-seeming Attacks, new Attacks have to get more complex. On top of that, wording even the simplest trashing attacks takes a bunch of text. So there's that.
Young Witch, Urchin, and Hermit have some of their text under the line. That matters. Setup text especially is not something that players have to worry about during the game.
Concerning Procession and Band of Misfits: I do not care how many complex interactions a card has. Or rather, I do care, but if a card can be worded simply and yet have lots of strategic combos with other cards, that's a huge mark in its favor.
And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
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Seven lines, and the lines could be longer if necessary. The Finnish Possession, Pirate Ship, Noble Brigand and Young Witch each have nine lines (Young Witch even has a "_____________" in addition to that), so it's definitely possible to fit more text there.
And in the same expansion, we have Urchin and Hermit (cards that add a lot of complexity to the kingdom on their own), Procession and Band of Misfits (cards with extremely complicated interactions with other cards), and a lot of stuff that modify a lot of the basic game mechanics (Shelters, Knights, Ruins, Rats, etc). It's not exactly a casual-friendly expansion at all, so there's little point in making Rebuild casual-friendlier.
I've already talked about Possession.
Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand (and to a lesser extent Saboteur, etc.) get a pass because Attacks have to ramp up in complexity faster than other cards. There are really only 4 ways to do an attack, yet about 1 out of every 6 Kingdom cards is an Attack card in order to keep the interaction level of the game as high as it is. That means that in order to keep making unique-seeming Attacks, new Attacks have to get more complex. On top of that, wording even the simplest trashing attacks takes a bunch of text. So there's that.
Young Witch, Urchin, and Hermit have some of their text under the line. That matters. Setup text especially is not something that players have to worry about during the game.
I do not care how many complex interactions a card has. Or rather, I do care, but if a card can be worded simply and yet have lots of strategic combos with other cards, that's a huge mark in its favor.
And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
So the card being an Attack is a good reason for complexity, because Attack cards get boring quickly unless they are complex. I agree. What I don't understand is why "complex Rebuilds are much more balanced and interesting than simple Rebuilds" is a bad reason for complexity.
When I mentioned Young Witch, the point was to point out that it is possible to fit more text in a physical card, though I suppose Young Witch still does the exact same thing as Urchin and Hermit when it comes to increasing the complexity of the kingdom, because just like Urchin and Hermit, Young Witch adds a completely new card that you still have to read after you're done reading Young Witch.
I think you missed my point about the complex interactions. I agree that having lots of strategic combos with other cards is a good thing. When a single expansion causes 50% of the threads on the first page of the Rules Questions forum, even though it isn't even the most recent expansion anymore, it's a bad thing (a minor one IMO), but more importantly a sign of being not very suitable for beginners anyway.
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
Are you really not sure which way is better? :o
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
Are you really not sure which way is better? :o
Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard." While the intent of the card is clear and obvious, the literal rules aspect gets muddled when you don't need to think at all about what it means to "name a card."
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
Are you really not sure which way is better? :o
Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard."
And you can just design a new card game on the spot in case you want to make sure.
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So the card being an Attack is a good reason for complexity, because Attack cards get boring quickly unless they are complex. I agree. What I don't understand is why "complex Rebuilds are much more balanced and interesting than simple Rebuilds" is a bad reason for complexity.
Because rather than patch an already complex card with further complexity, that card could be scrapped entirely and replaced with a simpler card. If we scrap an Attack card, chances are good that any similar replacement card would be similarly complex.
I think you missed my point about the complex interactions. I agree that having lots of strategic combos with other cards is a good thing. When a single expansion causes 50% of the threads on the first page of the Rules Questions forum, even though it isn't even the most recent expansion anymore, it's a bad thing (a minor one IMO), but more importantly a sign of being not very suitable for beginners anyway.
That's a bit of a copout in my opinion. Even if a set isn't the best set for beginners, cards should at least be as easy to parse as possible. Rebuild has an awkward effect, is what it boils down to.
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Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:
When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.
(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.
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I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?
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Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:
When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.
(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.
I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?
Yeah, it's kind of a sledgehammer of a fix. A unique and interesting sledgehammer for sure, but still. Wham!
Also, you'd almost need a component to put on the Duchy pile to remind you that you can't buy them this game.
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And it's not just the raw amount of text. For some reason the whole "Name a card and then dig for a Victory card that ISN'T the named card" throws some people. I couldn't tell you why.
It would be wordier, but easier to understand, if it said "Name a Victory card...," I think.
Well, that would neuter the card somewhat. As it stands, you do not have to name a Victory card.
It would only affect gameplay in the event that you have one or more of each of the 18 differently named Victory cards in your deck (or think you might). I would go so far as to conjecture that this has never happened.
I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
Are you really not sure which way is better? :o
Well although I highlighted the downside of only the MTG way, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the Dominion notion that "name a card" really just means "name something." It just seems odd to me that I can just say "keyboard", because I'm sure that in the history of card games, someone has created a card named "keyboard." While the intent of the card is clear and obvious, the literal rules aspect gets muddled when you don't need to think at all about what it means to "name a card."
I mean, really I guess what this amounts to is that for gameplay purposes, "name a card" actually means "you may name a card".
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I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
This helps explain why if Rebuild says "name a card", then it should not restrict the naming to Victory cards. Let's suppose that we are new players, and not yet entirely familiar with the cards. I play Rebuild and name Hovel. You tell me that it isn't allowed since Hovel isn't a Victory card. I insist that Hovel is a Victory card (probably under the assumption that the shelters are like the estates). How do we resolve this dispute? Our Hovels may both be in our decks where we can't check.
On a side note, if I am playing with werothegreat and he names "dooky", I am totally going to make him stop and trash that Duchy, because he did not name Duchy.
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.
But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.
But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.
I disagree. What if we disagree over whether or not Island was in the Black Market deck? I swear that I bought it, but you insist that it wasn't in the deck. We can't check without thumbing through my deck. Or what if I were to name Dame Stephanie? You tell me that there is no Dame Stephanie, and I tell you that you are out of your mind, there is totally a Dame Stephanie; it's the one that curses. We can't just check the Knights pile (especially since the top of the Knights pile is most certainly not Dame Stephanie).
Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile? Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.
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I'm not sure who does this better; Magic or Dominion. In Dominion, "Name a card" is defined as essentially "just say any word you want". You can name Jack of Diamonds, for example. But in Magic, when instructed to "Name a card", you MUST name an actual Magic, The Gathering card. Saying "Jack of Diamonds" is actually an illegal play. The problem there is that to use the card correctly, you have to have memorized the names of legal cards (what if you want the effect to miss, but you aren't familiar with magic cards other than ones that are in your deck?)
Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck? That doesn't really need memorization.
Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile? Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.
That's probably the best example so far.
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"Name a card", to me, does imply a card in the whole of Dominion and possibly even a card in the current Kingdom. The purpose of the flexibility is so that I may name a card that I have every expectation of not appearing in my deck, though.
It can't require you to name a card in your deck, since there would be no feasible way of enforcing such a rule.
But it could require you to name a legal Dominion card. Or a card being used this game. You can't say "in the Supply" both because you have to be able to name Madman, and you have to be able to name something from an empty pile.
I disagree. What if we disagree over whether or not Island was in the Black Market deck? I swear that I bought it, but you insist that it wasn't in the deck. We can't check without thumbing through my deck. Or what if I were to name Dame Stephanie? You tell me that there is no Dame Stephanie, and I tell you that you are out of your mind, there is totally a Dame Stephanie; it's the one that curses. We can't just check the Knights pile (especially since the top of the Knights pile is most certainly not Dame Stephanie).
Or even without player error, can I name Ruined Village in our two player game before a Ruined Village has been revealed from the Ruins pile? Maybe it is in the game, or maybe not.
All good points.
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Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
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Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
Edge cases to other games? Is that what we've come to?
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Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
Edge cases to other games? Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
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Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
Edge cases to other games? Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough
(http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/think-outside-the-box.jpg)
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Can't you just name a basic land that isn't in your deck? Or name something in another person's play area that you know isn't in your deck?
Maybe you have a 5-color deck with basic lands for each color and your opponent is playing Spiral Tide.
Edge cases to other games? Is that what we've come to?
Not if the game is Tic-Tac-Toe!
Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough
(http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/think-outside-the-box.jpg)
That case clearly goes beyond the edge.
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Maybe not an edge-case, but close enough
(http://shirtoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/think-outside-the-box.jpg)
Don't you think that's going a bit overboard? You are definitely crossing a line.
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All this xoxo. Won't public displays of affection get this moved to the RSP forum?
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All this xoxo. Won't public displays of affection get this moved to the RSP forum?
Anyone else hard as an ox?
No? Good, I'm not castrated either.
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I see how people complain about Rebuild and i totally agree with them! I'm pretty sure you all wish there was a way to fix this problem and so am I!
Rebuild needs, as it is called in online games, a good nerf.
But there is a big problem here: How is a printed card going to get nerfed???
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Since the boring part with Rebuild is buying Duchies with 5, here is a radical tweak for Rebuild:
When this is in the supply it's not possible to buy Duchy.
(Other Duchy gaining is allowed. In some Kingdoms there would be a Duchy race as we know it anyway, because of Border Village for example, but that would only be sometimes.) I think that usually you wouldn't just get Rebuilds for 5, but when you now would get a Duchy instead you might get something to play your Rebuilds more often, or to attack, or to get some economy for Provinces. More variation.
I think that would be interesting, maybe a little too inelegant though?
Yeah, it's kind of a sledgehammer of a fix. A unique and interesting sledgehammer for sure, but still. Wham!
Also, you'd almost need a component to put on the Duchy pile to remind you that you can't buy them this game.
Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?
The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.
What if we changed the "up to $3 more" to "at least $1 more"?
This way, you can't Rebuild Provinces into Provinces to speed the game up and it becomes a bit of a liability. This means you would almost always name Province once you have one.
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What if we changed the "up to $3 more" to "at least $1 more"?
Know what your idea is - but if I take this literally, I'll rebuild my estate into a colony thank you :-)
How about "A different victory card costing up to $3 more" ?
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I'm just such a nice guy, I obviously meant "at least $1 and at most $3 more". :)
But different victory card works just as well.
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Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?
The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.
Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)
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Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?
The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.
Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)
But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.
If you want to change buying rules, I'd rather consider:
"You may not buy Rebuild unless a Province has been bought."
(You could use the Trade Route tokens to track this.)
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But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.
I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5, and even rather seldom you'd like two Estates for that matter, if you happen to have +Buy. But I haven't tested anything.
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Well, won't Rebuild get simply more dominant?
The only way to get Duchies would be to Rebuild Estates, so the Rebuilder just buys Estates and Rebuilds them to Duchies while the non-Rebuilder can't buy Duchies to deny them to his opponent.
Yeah, but that fix wasn't meant to make it easier to avoid using Rebuild at all; but to make a game with Rebuild more interesting. (On many boards you will lose if you don't get Witch, and both players will know it. That is also no problem. There can be lots of variation in what else you are doing.)
It's okay for attacks like Witch to be strong because they exert a game-slowing effect, opening the door for complex strategies like engines. Rebuild exerts a game-accelerating effect, which is the problem.
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But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.
I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5
Then you just buy another Rebuild. One of the tactical decisions you have to make in a Rebuild game is knowing when to switch from Rebuilds to Duchies. If Duchy is not a buy option, then you just go for Rebuild every time. Of course that's slightly weaker than if Duchy is available, but not nearly enough that Rebuild is no longer dominant on most boards. I think it's only a slight nerf, and actually makes Rebuild less interesting.
Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more? I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.
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Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more? I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.
But then it's not as much fun with Feodum! (I have no idea if it makes sense to get Feodum involved in a Rebuild deck, probably not, but I did it recently and thought it was fun)
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But does it become any more interesting if you just buy Estates instead of Duchies? I don't think so.
I think it would be very seldom you'd like to buy Estate for $5
Then you just buy another Rebuild. One of the tactical decisions you have to make in a Rebuild game is knowing when to switch from Rebuilds to Duchies. If Duchy is not a buy option, then you just go for Rebuild every time. Of course that's slightly weaker than if Duchy is available, but not nearly enough that Rebuild is no longer dominant on most boards. I think it's only a slight nerf, and actually makes Rebuild less interesting.
Yes, that's what I think as well. The strategy would be simple: Buy Rebuild for $5, Silver or Estate for $3, Estate for $2.
Is there a reason why the "return to supply" fix hasn't been discussed more? I think that's by far the simplest, and probably the most effective, fix yet.
I think the simplest fixes are removing the +1 Action or increasing the price; and both have been shown to be effective for making Rebuild-BM non-dominant (the price increase to $6 probably too much so).
"Return to supply" is also a relatively simple (and elegant) fix, but I'm not sure if it really weakens Rebuild so much; have you playtested/simulated it? It could actually help Rebuild that the Duchies rarely run out in the non-mirror, similarly as with pst's proposal. (It might hurt Rebuild more if only the Provinces are returned to the supply instead of trashed, not the Duchies.)
Maybe you could just increase the Province pile size in Rebuild games, fixing Rebuild without changing the card itself?
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Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.
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I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment. That seems like a worthwhile thing to explore. If you knew, you were doing that, you could play around with when trash effects, so it seems like a good fit for dark ages.
This sort of thing is why I'm pissed off about the idea that there can't be any more expansions.
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I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment.
Actually I've done this already a few times with Upgrade-draw-deck-engines. Especially combined with KC.
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I like the top deck Remodel since it gives you a way of remodelling something that's "the same card" multiple times in the same turn, which doesn't really exist in Dominion at the moment.
Actually I've done this already a few times with Upgrade-draw-deck-engines. Especially combined with KC.
It's a nice feeling.
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What about something as simple as adding ", putting it on your deck" to the gain effect? It's a tad weaker, and also flavorful. Though with multiple rebuilds in hand it may be better or worse, I'm not sure.
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Ironically, I think Rebuild and Tournament are kind of interesting combined sometimes. Here's a game from today:
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131223/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1387814370406.txt
Thought I was dead when he got 5/2, but gaining Duchies and Princess really helps against a Rebuild-focused player. In fact, this game does do a good job illustrating one of Rebuild's few crippling weaknesses--you can't gain any points sometimes, so falling behind kills you.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?
I believe the answer is yes, but those times are so rare that Scout isn't worth the card slot it takes up.
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Mistake card is a mistake. Oh well. I would say it is the only real "mistake" in Dominion. I mean yah we have Scout. But, better to be underpowered than just broken.
Yeah, imagine seeing 9 fun cards and then Rebuild, you're going from "hey nice board!" to "oh..Rebuild".
With Scout it's just "well, at least 9 cards are fun!"
Rebuild can totally kill a board which is the main grudge I have with it.
I think scout is a fun card because there are times when it is actually useful and it may provide a nice dynamic to an otherwise boring deck.
True that there are times when it is actually useful, but are there any times when it is actually more useful than something else you could be getting with a buy?
I believe the answer is yes, but those times are so rare that Scout isn't worth the card slot it takes up.
I agree. I think I've bought Scout on Goko in one of the ~1500 games I've played.
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What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)
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Bought 2 scouts in a Dukes + Bureaucrat game yesterday
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Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.
But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
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Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.
But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
in general, the more time the engine player has to build, the better her prospects. more vp in the supply makes it possible to beat a province deficit if you play longer and vice versa.
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Returning the Duchies to the supply probably helps the engine player more than the Rebuild player, as it increases the total VP available to get on a megaturn.
But most engines don't go for a single megaturn. And non-megaturn engines only marginally profit from Duchies, probably less so than the Rebuild player.
in general, the more time the engine player has to build, the better her prospects. more vp in the supply makes it possible to beat a province deficit if you play longer and vice versa.
I would add also that the extra Duchies only help the Rebuild player because he needs them to make up for the Provinces he can't trash from the supply anymore. It is no longer the case that the Rebuild player can shut out the engine player by quickly grabbing VP and trashing down the supply until he has half the available VP; he must actually keep buying Duchies and Rebuilding them until he works his way up to 43 VP, which is not easy.
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What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)
I ran a Scout-Market-Harem engine. It worked amazing, and the reordering helped with the cantrips and picking up my Harems. Only time I've better bought it and thought it deserved to exist.
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What Scout does best is making you appreciate Silvers. :)
I ran a Scout-Market-Harem engine. It worked amazing, and the reordering helped with the cantrips and picking up my Harems. Only time I've better bought it and thought it deserved to exist.
For me it's Scout/Mystic. That's a fun combo.
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:
Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.
Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:
Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.
That would actually combo quite well with Scout
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:
Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.
Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.
took me a minute to get it, but this seems worth testing. Prior to having duchies, you'd have to get very lucky to go estate-> duchy if your deck is just copper, silver, rebuild, estate (drawing all three prior to estate). Once you've got duchies, it's a bit better, but still weak. So you'd have to buy stuff besides rebuild, silver, duchy, in order to make the deck work. And that's the thing that rebuild needs.
(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well. I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree. I'm petulant about it, tho.)
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Another idea, Cornucopia Rebuild:
Rebuild
+1 Action
Name a card. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Victory card that is not the named card. Trash it and gain a Victory card costing at most 1$ per differently named card revealed more than the trashed card. Discard the other cards.
Edit: Maybe instead of "up to" it should be "less", but that's a detail. I think you get that this tries to reduce the one-card-strategy aspect of Rebuild.
took me a minute to get it, but this seems worth testing. Prior to having duchies, you'd have to get very lucky to go estate-> duchy if your deck is just copper, silver, rebuild, estate (drawing all three prior to estate). Once you've got duchies, it's a bit better, but still weak. So you'd have to buy stuff besides rebuild, silver, duchy, in order to make the deck work. And that's the thing that rebuild needs.
The trashed VP card also counts as one of the revealed cards, as I understand the card text; so it works as a normal Rebuild just by revealing Copper and Silver before the VP card. In Shelters games or with Looters, it becomes even easier to use Rebuild as usual.
Therefore I think this is far too strong (probably stronger than the printed card); it gives a very good chance to go e.g. Gardens->Province, and a realistic chance to directly rebuild Estates into Provinces if you have 4+ different non-VP cards in your deck (you just need to buy 2-3 different support cards for Rebuild even if there's no Shelters/Looters; you'd sometimes do this with the original Rebuild anyway).
The idea is interesting, but the card should at least say "less than" to weaken it; probably it needs even more nerfing.
(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well. I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree. I'm petulant about it, tho.)
I agree; but I think it would need to cost $5 to become reasonably weak. Actually I considered just this variant as a fan card before Dark Ages was released; back then I thought it might still be too strong at $5.
I wonder why Donald didn't consider this version; it'd be easier and more interesting than the printed card...
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(I still think my in-hand idea is viable as well. I guess since nobody commented on it y'all disagree. I'm petulant about it, tho.)
Just to clarify, your version is this, correct?
Rebuild
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.
I don't find that version terribly interesting compared to Expand, etc. It's potentially weaker than Rebuild as it currently exists, but it may have the same issue of bypassing the deck build-up phase of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, since you're incentivized to get a larger handsize. Still, I'd rather have a more interesting card than a cheap Expand that only works on Victory cards.
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Just to clarify, your version is this, correct?
Rebuild
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash a Victory card from your hand. Gain a Victory card costing up to $3 more than it.
I don't find that version terribly interesting compared to Expand, etc. It's potentially weaker than Rebuild as it currently exists, but it may have the same issue of bypassing the deck build-up phase of the game. Maybe I'm wrong, since you're incentivized to get a larger handsize. Still, I'd rather have a more interesting card than a cheap Expand that only works on Victory cards.
I think if you add the "if you do" clause, and then have it do something else if you don't (gain Estate?), that helps this version.
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Idea (from other threads):
Rebuild
Action - $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card that shares a type costing up to $5 more than it. (Put it on top of your deck?)
Thematically, it can turn ruins into their non Ruined counterparts (unless your Market was Grand or your Village was on the Border). It looks very powerful but it's very Kingdom dependent. It could be just $3 to fit in with other cards but for many kingdoms it makes no difference and I like how ridiculous it looks.
The topdecking makes it more generally useful, especially with Actions, but makes it worse for Victory cards.
Also it's a trasher that's rubbish at trashing Curses. That's... something.
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Here's the version I'm going to be using in place of the published version (haven't gotten around to trying it yet).
Rebuild
$5 - Action
+1 Action
Look at the top three cards of your deck. Trash one and discard the others. Then gain a card costing up to $2 more than the card you trashed. You may put the gained card on top of your deck.
...it's kindof a cross between the published version and the outtake version that Last Footnote posted in the other thread ( http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9978.0 ). I like it being nonterminal.
I kindof like NoMoreFun's version in the previous post too. It's different enough that maybe I'll rename it and use it also. I think it should still cost $5 despite the fact that it doesn't work with curses (You can already turn a silver into a hoard or a harem with mine, putting it back into your hand. But this can also turn an estate into a Harem/Fairgrounds or a ruins into a Lab/Wharf/Minion/Stables.)
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I kindof like NoMoreFun's version in the previous post too. It's different enough that maybe I'll rename it and use it also. I think it should still cost $5 despite the fact that it doesn't work with curses (You can already turn a silver into a hoard or a harem with mine, putting it back into your hand. But this can also turn an estate into a Harem/Fairgrounds or a ruins into a Lab/Wharf/Minion/Stables.)
If you find yourself frequently able to use $4 and $5 upgrade, then let me know and try dropping it to $3. I thought $5 was fine because it makes the card a straight up counter to Ruins, and while there are a few very strong combos (Great Hall->Province comes to mind), it largely won't make too much of a difference. However $3 would be fine and more in line with existing cards (and you'd still get the Ruined Village->Village theming)