Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Variants and Fan Cards => Topic started by: manthos88 on November 27, 2013, 08:49:45 am
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Okay, guys... I've given some thought on these cards, i haven't concluded on how exactly some of them should be, i wanted to think of some more before actually making this post ...but i'll just throw them into publicity... I really love the idea behind some of them... :D
Okay, so here we go:
Engineer (Action, Cost:5)
+3 Cards
You may put a card on top of your Deck. If you do, +1 Action and discard a card.
Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
Street Market (Action, Cost:4)
+2 Buys
+(1) Coin
Choose a card from a supply pile that costs up to (5). Cards from that supply cost (1) less, but not less than (0).
Iron-Processor (Action, Cost:2)
+2 Cards
Discard a card. If it's an... Action card, +1 Action... Treasure card, +(1) Coin... Victory card, +1 Card.
Avalanche (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your Deck until you reveal a card that is not the named card. Put the revealed cards into your hand.
Diplomat-Smithy (Action, Cost:4)
+3 Cards
The player to your left may draw a card. If he does, you do as well.
- For the following card, i have 2 versions of it:
Version 1:
Invention (Action, Cost: 6)
Gain an Action or Treasure Card costing less than this card. Put it in your hand.
Version 2:
Mach-Generator (Victory-Reaction, Cost: 6)
- Worth (2) VPs
When you gain an Action or Treasure Card costing less than this card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a copy of that card. If the gained card was not put in your discard pile, you may do likewise with its copy.
But i have also thought of another third version, which makes it a lot different:
Duplicate-Jester (Action-Reaction, Cost: 3)
Reveal a card from your hand that costs up to (4). Gain a copy of that card.
When any player gains a card costing up to (4), you may discard this from your hand. If you do, choose any player to gain a copy of that card.
My key thoughts for each of the cards above:
Engineer: Very convenient tool for almost any engine. It's the kind of card that i always wanted to exist in this game and i also wanted another card to be able to work as a Courtyard. Engineer, as its name implies, will fix an engine when it's not working... ;)
Sweeper: Very convenient trasher. Cheap. Handy. As a little draw-back, it has to not be able to played whenever it comes into somebody's hand without consequences (mid-late game).
Street Market: Taking into account the existance of Squire, i thought why not create a card that gives more than 1 +Buy? So i thought of this: A card that can use the +buys nicely on components and also gives a unique effect: It reduces the cost of cards of 1 supply pile, making possible to get special benefits from Band of Misfits, Catacombs -when you trash it- and (combined with other cost-reducers) even Border Village.
Iron-Processor: An "Iron"-variant with some convenient utility, i believe. Maybe too cheap. Perhaps it should cost $3, instead of $2.
Avalanche: This - is - my glorious - "invention" ;D. The card that will make the BIG plays. Let's have a look at it. On first glimpse, it's very inconsistent. Maybe you should build your deck around it a little bit and some lucky draws can make big difference in mirror matches (and this is in fact a factor that i don't like about this card). It can be very strong early game (drawing a bunch of Coppers all at once) and it will not be entirely useless to you when you guess wrong, because it will draw you at least 2 cards.
But the big plays are elsewhere: Assume you are playing an engine and you have already drawn your whole deck, you got plenty of actions to spend, some Traders in your hand and an Avalanche. What can u do with that? Trader into tons of Silvers and... kaboom! Your single Avalanche will draw all of the Silvers you just gained at once and "gg"...
Diplomat-Smithy: There are huge differences between using cards that draw 3 Cards and ones that draw 4 Cards. With this card, the decision is up to your opponent. Does he want to draw a "free" card in exchange for letting you achieve the "+4 Cards"-threshold, or not? Someone could say, it's like a mini-Council-Room, but in reality, it's very different. Good and bad uses of this card, as well as good and bad decisions from your opponent can make a big difference.
- Tired of writing... ;D
I'm not gonna talk about the remaining cards now... maybe i'll update my post later on...
I'll be waiting for comments anyway...
Thanks for reading... ;D
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Diplomat-Smithy is strictly worse than Smithy.
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Diplomat-Smithy is strictly worse than Smithy.
only in a 2-player game
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I don't think it's worse. It's just different. The +4 cards is big for a $4 card.
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A choice is given to your opponent, whether this is a smithy or a "+4 card, he draw one".
Since he will always choose the option that is good for him (which is in turn bad for you), it is worse than smithy in 2P.
But that is assuming that the opponent always make the best play, which is usually not the case in real games.
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Diplomat-Smithy is strictly worse than Smithy.
I wouldn't say strictly worse... you do draw 4 cards, yes, in a two player game you only net 3 since your oppenent draws too, so really, its Council Room without the +buy for $4.
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A choice is given to your opponent, whether this is a smithy or a "+4 card, he draw one".
Since he will always choose the option that is good for him (which is in turn bad for you), it is worse than smithy in 2P.
But that is assuming that the opponent always make the best play, which is usually not the case in real games.
Since your opponent usually doesn't know your top card, or your hand, you can't asume the best play for him is the worst play for you. He could be choosing to draw to get from $7 to $8 in his hand, but maybe you have $7 in yours...
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
This strikes me as a bit too strong. It's a cheap spammable trasher, and usually you have to pay $5 for that (though you get an extra benefit with the $5). Later in the game you don't want to trash, but by that point you'll usually have something you can discard, so while it would be better in most cases to not have this, it's not all that detrimental. And with draw-to-x you can use it more towards your advantage.
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Engineer: So, either a Smithy or a Cantrip with some filtering, seems solid.
Sweeper: Cantrip trashers are very strong. I think it should cost $4, so you can't double open with it, especially as it's only slightly worse than Upgrade early on.
Street Market: Straight forward card, seems very strong, but not overpowered I think. It's basically a Gold for cards costing up to $5.
Iron Processor: While the first 2 benefits are fine, the third one is way too strong. It's a Smithy for $2 mostly all the time for a Big Money game. I propose changing that to +1 Buy. It comboes very well with Ruins in your deck.
Avalanche: Maybe I don't understand the card, but I can name "King of Hearts" and draw my whole deck with it. Can you explain?
Diplomat-Smithy: I just don't like it as it adds sort of Politics and is too similar to Smithy.
Invention: Altar does basically the same thing, but you have to trash a card which might be a benefit or a disadvantage, depending on your hand. Altar is stronger as can gain Victory cards and gets affected by price reduction, but adding the trashed card to your hand is a big benefit. So, it seems very strong, but hard to tell.
Mach-Generator: I kinda like it. Not sure if it needs the extra-clause for where to put the gained card though. What I like is that for an engine with strong $5s you have to get a Victory card first that clogs up your deck, just to possibly get 2 of them. For money strategies it can also nice to get it mid-game instead of a Gold just to get 2 Silvers later instead.
Duplicate-Jester: I don't like it. The first effect only is worse than Workshop. The second one is highly political and let you attack on-Reaction when someone gains a Curse. That could snowball quickly. Not a good idea. I would change it to only letting you gain it. Then it's basically a non-terminal Smugglers for cards up to $4.
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
this should cost $4. being able to open with 2 cantrip trashers is too strong, i think
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
this should cost $4. being able to open with 2 cantrip trashers is too strong, i think
Though, opening something like double Forager isn't much worse.
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
this should cost $4. being able to open with 2 cantrip trashers is too strong, i think
Though, opening something like double Forager isn't much worse.
Forager hurts your early economy and cycling, though. This hurts your cycling not at all and your economy only when you have it with 5 coppers.
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
this should cost $4. being able to open with 2 cantrip trashers is too strong, i think
Though, opening something like double Forager isn't much worse.
Forager hurts your early economy and cycling, though. This hurts your cycling not at all and your economy only when you have it with 5 coppers.
If any player trashes a Copper, Forager can help your economy, and it has +buy, too. Sweeper/Sweeper is better than Forager/Forager, but they both leave your deck at a pretty miserable state economy-wise; I would rather open something like Sweeper/terminal silver.
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Engineer (Action, Cost:5)
+3 Cards
You may put a card on top of your Deck. If you do, +1 Action and discard a card.
It's always as good as Smithy, but you can choose to make it terminal by top-decking one and discarding another. If you do that, you don't increase your handsize but you get really good non-terminal filtering. That's fairly interesting and looks appropriately priced at $5. I like it.
Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
There has been some discussion on this, saying that this should cost $4. I am going to go further and say that it probably doesn't work at any price as is, but if a price had to be given it would be $5.
Sweeper gives cantrip trashing. That is very powerful. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 official cantrip trashers -- Upgrade, Junk Dealer and Rats. Upgrade and JD are pretty similar -- $5 cantrip trashing with a mild benefit. Typically you use these cards to thin out starting junk, so Upgrade's benefit is typically nothing for Copper and $3 cards for trashing Estates, while JD is just a flat +$1 every time. Rats is a $4 cantrip trasher with a drawback -- you gain another Rats. The thing about Rats is that it is actually bad for you unless you can combo it with something else -- TfB like Apprentice or Bishop that appreciates having more $4 fodder, or something that can manage the Rat population like Jack of All Trades.
So how does Sweeper compare? It actually matches Upgrade and JD in function as a cantrip trasher with a mild benefit -- safety. You said that you want it to not be playable all the time without consequences, but you did not succeed there. Sweeper is entirely safe to play because you can choose to discard instead of trash. For example, say I draw Sweeper, Gold, Gold, Wharf, Province. I don't want to trash anything in my hand. Now, if Sweeper were a Junk Dealer instead, I would opt not to play JD at all. But with Sweeper, I can freely play it. I draw Gold? No problem, I can just discard the Province in my hand.
That safety means that I would definitely put it above $4. I say that it might be unpriceable because I feel that it would be too strong for $4 yet too weak for $5.
Now, all that said, it might still be OK at $4. It would be very strong, but it might still work. Rats has a drawback, but in some cases it becomes a big benefit (and the $4 cost actually makes Rats better in those scenarios). But Sweeper is certainly, absolutely too powerful for $3.
Street Market (Action, Cost:4)
+2 Buys
+(1) Coin
Choose a card from a supply pile that costs up to (5). Cards from that supply cost (1) less, but not less than (0).
Single card cost reduction is a concept that has been brought up before. The main concern is that it can get extremely difficult to track. If you can accept that though, it may still work fine. I'm not sure about Street Market though. It costs the same as Bridge. It provides one extra Buy, but it only reduces the cost of a single card, and it has a price restriction too. Street Market would be unable to reduce the cost of Provinces (without Highway or Bridge). Although the extra Buy can be useful, especially with cost reduction, I imagine that Bridge is far better. You could probably remove the $5 target restriction, and maybe even bump it up to +3 Buys to emphasize that niche.
Iron-Processor (Action, Cost:2)
+2 Cards
Discard a card. If it's an... Action card, +1 Action... Treasure card, +(1) Coin... Victory card, +1 Card.
The action option is pretty bad, amounting to a cantrip with filtering but at the cost of an action card. The Treasure option is also not great, leaving IP with Moat-level draw if you discard a Copper, or worse if you have to discard a Silver. But the Victory card option -- that's just about as good as a Smithy. The chance of not finding a Victory card to discard means that it's probably OK at $2. Still, it's a rather boring concept.
Avalanche (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your Deck until you reveal a card that is not the named card. Put the revealed cards into your hand.
This is an alright idea, but it would be very weak in general. Even at $2, I would usually pass this up, because it requires both a good guess for the top card of your deck and that the top of your deck have multiples of that same card for Avalanche to really pay off. While it can draw a bunch of Copper in the early game, that is extraordinarily luck-dependent.
I would suggest replacing +1 Card with +1 Action and dropping the price to $2. Making it non-terminal means it's a bit less harmful when you guess incorrectly, as it would then just be a cantrip.
You describe a "big play" scenario with Trader after you've drawn your whole deck... but man, that is such an unlikely scenario. Trader is not usually found in an engine that can draw the whole deck. :P For those rare situations when you can do something really cool with this card, it doesn't matter if it costs a bit less.
Diplomat-Smithy (Action, Cost:4)
+3 Cards
The player to your left may draw a card. If he does, you do as well.
Others have noted that this is strictly inferior to Smithy in 2 player games. It may not be obvious at first though. The first thing to note is that this is never actually better than Smithy, because the player to your left can just decline the extra card draw every single time. The second thing to note is that the extra effect is NOT your choice. When the other player lets you draw, it's because he really wants that extra card, or because he knows it doesn't help your or would actually hurt you (triggering an unwanted reshuffle, for example). The fact that it isn't your choice makes it inferior to Smithy -- you are giving an opponent a beneficial option, so it can only ever help him.
A bigger issue with the card, IMO, is that it gets political with more than 2 players. In a 3p game, playing the Diplomat-Smithy is like choosing to help out the player to your left. If the player to your right plays the card, you have extra incentive to do the extra card draw especially if he is behind the third player. I like that Dominion was designed to mitigate politics, so I don't really like fan cards that bring politics back in.
- For the following card, i have 2 versions of it:
Version 1:
Invention (Action, Cost: 6)
Gain an Action or Treasure Card costing less than this card. Put it in your hand.
Version 2:
Mach-Generator (Victory-Reaction, Cost: 6)
- Worth (2) VPs
When you gain an Action or Treasure Card costing less than this card, you may discard this from your hand. If you do, gain a copy of that card. If the gained card was not put in your discard pile, you may do likewise with its copy.
But i have also thought of another third version, which makes it a lot different:
Duplicate-Jester (Action-Reaction, Cost: 3)
Reveal a card from your hand that costs up to (4). Gain a copy of that card.
When any player gains a card costing up to (4), you may discard this from your hand. If you do, choose any player to gain a copy of that card.
Invention is pretty close to Altar. Invention cannot gain Victory cards, but it gains the card to hand. Altar trashes a card (which can be good or bad) and it is fixed at a $5 cap which means that it can combo with cost reduction while Invention can't. In the end, gaining the card to hand does make a fair amount of difference. It could be interesting.
Mach-Generator acts a lot like Talisman, but with greater flexibility -- it can duplicate cards up to $5 in cost, and it can react to gains rather than just buys. It's also worth 2VP. OTOH, Talisman gives +$1 and stacks with +Buy. The last part of the card is largely superfluous. Royal Seal and Watchtower can both be used on the copy anyway. A second copy of Nomad Camp will top-deck itself just like the first copy. What else is there? Explorer, I guess? That one interaction is not enough to warrant an entire extra sentence on this card. :P Overall though, I don't find Mach-Generator to be all that exciting.
I don't like Duplicate-Jester at all. The main action is just a much weaker version of Workshop, which is already a really weak card. The reaction is political. Play a Witch, discard Duplicate-Jester to give one unlucky fellow an extra curse. I'd rather not have that.
Hope these comments help you refine your cards!
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Avalanche (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your Deck until you reveal a card that is not the named card. Put the revealed cards into your hand.
This is an alright idea, but it would be very weak in general. Even at $2, I would usually pass this up, because it requires both a good guess for the top card of your deck and that the top of your deck have multiples of that same card for Avalanche to really pay off. While it can draw a bunch of Copper in the early game, that is extraordinarily luck-dependent.
I would suggest replacing +1 Card with +1 Action and dropping the price to $2. Making it non-terminal means it's a bit less harmful when you guess incorrectly, as it would then just be a cantrip.
You describe a "big play" scenario with Trader after you've drawn your whole deck... but man, that is such an unlikely scenario. Trader is not usually found in an engine that can draw the whole deck. :P For those rare situations when you can do something really cool with this card, it doesn't matter if it costs a bit less.
If you replace +1 card with +1 action, doesn't it just become a better Wishing Well? You have to guess the top card of your deck instead of the second-from-top, which is usually better, and you might get more than 2 cards. I think you may be missing that you put all the revealed cards into your hand, including the one at the end that is not the named card.
Edit: You mentioned that if it whiffs it's a cantrip with your change, so I guess you didn't miss that it picks up the last card...Am I missing something or is your suggestion just better than Wishing Well?
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Avalanche (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your Deck until you reveal a card that is not the named card. Put the revealed cards into your hand.
This is an alright idea, but it would be very weak in general. Even at $2, I would usually pass this up, because it requires both a good guess for the top card of your deck and that the top of your deck have multiples of that same card for Avalanche to really pay off. While it can draw a bunch of Copper in the early game, that is extraordinarily luck-dependent.
I would suggest replacing +1 Card with +1 Action and dropping the price to $2. Making it non-terminal means it's a bit less harmful when you guess incorrectly, as it would then just be a cantrip.
You describe a "big play" scenario with Trader after you've drawn your whole deck... but man, that is such an unlikely scenario. Trader is not usually found in an engine that can draw the whole deck. :P For those rare situations when you can do something really cool with this card, it doesn't matter if it costs a bit less.
If you replace +1 card with +1 action, doesn't it just become a better Wishing Well? You have to guess the top card of your deck instead of the second-from-top, which is usually better, and you might get more than 2 cards. I think you may be missing that you put all the revealed cards into your hand, including the one at the end that is not the named card.
Edit: You mentioned that if it whiffs it's a cantrip with your change, so I guess you didn't miss that it picks up the last card...Am I missing something or is your suggestion just better than Wishing Well?
Hmm... I think you are right. When I was writing that up, I did actually miss that it picked up the last card. Then I caught it, but I guess I didn't properly reevaluate my suggestions after that. My bad!
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The last part of the card is largely superfluous. Royal Seal and Watchtower can both be used on the copy anyway. A second copy of Nomad Camp will top-deck itself just like the first copy. What else is there? Explorer, I guess?
Mine, Armory.
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Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
There has been some discussion on this, saying that this should cost $4. I am going to go further and say that it probably doesn't work at any price as is, but if a price had to be given it would be $5.
Sweeper gives cantrip trashing. That is very powerful. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 official cantrip trashers -- Upgrade, Junk Dealer and Rats. Upgrade and JD are pretty similar -- $5 cantrip trashing with a mild benefit.
Junk Dealer's benefit is not marginal, but quite big - adding +$1 typically increases a card's cost by $2 or $3 (Silver vs. Gold, Village vs. Bazaar). Therefore Sweeper seems reasonable (if strong) at $4 to me, since its benefit is much smaller; I think it would be slightly stronger than Masquerade, which also has optional trashing. Sweeper might seriously hurt Junkers since you can spam it, but that might be considered a plus since junkers are so strong usually.
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The last part of the card is largely superfluous. Royal Seal and Watchtower can both be used on the copy anyway. A second copy of Nomad Camp will top-deck itself just like the first copy. What else is there? Explorer, I guess?
Mine, Armory.
Good call. Still feels like an unnecessary addition to me.
Sweeper (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose a card in your hand. Discard it, or trash it.
There has been some discussion on this, saying that this should cost $4. I am going to go further and say that it probably doesn't work at any price as is, but if a price had to be given it would be $5.
Sweeper gives cantrip trashing. That is very powerful. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 official cantrip trashers -- Upgrade, Junk Dealer and Rats. Upgrade and JD are pretty similar -- $5 cantrip trashing with a mild benefit.
Junk Dealer's benefit is not marginal, but quite big - adding +$1 typically increases a card's cost by $2 or $3 (Silver vs. Gold, Village vs. Bazaar). Therefore Sweeper seems reasonable (if strong) at $4 to me, since its benefit is much smaller; I think it would be slightly stronger than Masquerade, which also has optional trashing. Sweeper might seriously hurt Junkers since you can spam it, but that might be considered a plus since junkers are so strong usually.
You can't really assign linear value to vanilla bonuses like that, but I didn't say the benefit was marginal. I said it was mild. There's a difference. :P
More specifically, the +$1 on Junk Dealer is nice, but it is small compared to the benefit of trashing. Trashing is just that good! I also said that I thought Sweeper would be too weak for $5 but too strong for $4. The main point was just that cantrip trashing is extremely good. Countering junkers isn't even a factor here -- it's about the early game momentum that you can build from quickly cycling and trashing through your deck.
And I did say at the end that it might still work at $4. It would still be very, very strong at that price though.
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You can't really assign linear value to vanilla bonuses like that, but I didn't say the benefit was marginal. I said it was mild. There's a difference. :P
:-[ Sorry, I meant to say I don't consider it a "mild" benefit, due to the comparisons I gave (which seem like reasonable heuristics in the absence of actual playtesting; of course they don't prove anything).
More specifically, the +$1 on Junk Dealer is nice, but it is small compared to the benefit of trashing. Trashing is just that good! I also said that I thought Sweeper would be too weak for $5 but too strong for $4. The main point was just that cantrip trashing is extremely good. Countering junkers isn't even a factor here -- it's about the early game momentum that you can build from quickly cycling and trashing through your deck.
And I did say at the end that it might still work at $4. It would still be very, very strong at that price though.
I don't quite see why you think it to be so strong. Of course trashing is very strong, but a single Chapel can trash faster than even two or three Sweepers (even if you count the Chapel as a dead card afterwards, while the Sweepers remain "almost" cantrips).
Also, we already have two cards that are essentially ("nerfed") cantrip trashers at $3: Lookout and Loan (since trashing from the deck doesn't decrease handsize); and they're both quite weak.
(Edit to clarify; see also my next post)
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Avalanche: Maybe I don't understand the card, but I can name "King of Hearts" and draw my whole deck with it. Can you explain?
I mean, that if you name "Silver", you keep drawing cards until you draw a card that is NOT a Silver. So, you will draw as many Silvers as you reveal and an extra card.
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You can't really assign linear value to vanilla bonuses like that, but I didn't say the benefit was marginal. I said it was mild. There's a difference. :P
:-[ Sorry, I meant to say I don't consider it a "mild" benefit, due to the comparisons I gave (which seem like reasonable heuristics in the absence of actual playtesting; of course they don't prove anything).
More specifically, the +$1 on Junk Dealer is nice, but it is small compared to the benefit of trashing. Trashing is just that good! I also said that I thought Sweeper would be too weak for $5 but too strong for $4. The main point was just that cantrip trashing is extremely good. Countering junkers isn't even a factor here -- it's about the early game momentum that you can build from quickly cycling and trashing through your deck.
And I did say at the end that it might still work at $4. It would still be very, very strong at that price though.
I don't quite see why you think it to be so strong. Of course trashing is very strong, but a single Chapel can trash faster than even two or three Sweepers (even if you count the Chapel as a dead card afterwards, while the Sweepers remain "almost" cantrips).
Also, we already have two ("nerfed") cantrip trashers at $3: Lookout and Loan (since trashing from the deck doesn't decrease handsize); and they're both quite weak.
Chapel is an exceptional case.
Lookout is not cantrip. The +1 card matters a lot. Moreover, it gives you far reduced selection (3 cards instead of your hand) and it gets very dangerous to play in the mid game.
Loan is a copper, which is not at all like a cantrip. And it only trashes treasures. If you buy any other Treasures it will start to whiff (hitting your Silvers and Golds) quite a lot.
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Chapel is an exceptional case.
Lookout is not cantrip. The +1 card matters a lot. Moreover, it gives you far reduced selection (3 cards instead of your hand) and it gets very dangerous to play in the mid game.
Loan is a copper, which is not at all like a cantrip. And it only trashes treasures. If you buy any other Treasures it will start to whiff (hitting your Silvers and Golds) quite a lot.
Lookout doesn't have +1 Card, but since it trashes from deck instead of hand, it keeps your handsize the same as a cantrip trasher would do, so it seems equivalent to a (nerfed) cantrip trasher to me. The same holds for Loan, which neither costs an action nor decreases handsize any more than Junk Dealer does. (If the top card of my deck is a Copper, playing Junk Dealer to trash a Copper and playing Loan actually do exactly the same thing, both for my current term and for my deck content.)
Of course both cards have the substantial nerfs that you mention, but they also have the advantage of mild filtering resp. giving $1 over a "vanilla" cantrip trasher.
The question is if Lookout and Loan are so weak only because of these nerfs, or if a cantrip trasher isn't that strong to begin with.
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Chapel is an exceptional case.
Lookout is not cantrip. The +1 card matters a lot. Moreover, it gives you far reduced selection (3 cards instead of your hand) and it gets very dangerous to play in the mid game.
Loan is a copper, which is not at all like a cantrip. And it only trashes treasures. If you buy any other Treasures it will start to whiff (hitting your Silvers and Golds) quite a lot.
Lookout doesn't have +1 Card, but since it trashes from deck instead of hand, it keeps your handsize the same as a cantrip trasher would do, so it seems equivalent to a (nerfed) cantrip trasher to me. The same holds for Loan, which neither costs an action nor decreases handsize any more than Junk Dealer does. (If the top card of my deck is a Copper, playing Junk Dealer to trash a Copper and playing Loan actually do exactly the same thing, both for my current term and for my deck content.)
Of course both cards have the substantial nerfs that you mention, but they also have the advantage of mild filtering resp. giving $1 over a "vanilla" cantrip trasher.
The question is if Lookout and Loan are so weak only because of these nerfs, or if a cantrip trasher isn't that strong to begin with.
It's not about the hand size though. With Loan, it's like you played a cantrip and it drew a Copper. If you played an actual cantrip, you would get an average card from your deck which should be better than Copper. Copper is the stuff you want to get rid of, after all. But alright, "nerfed cantrip" is an OK approximation. The nerfs do matter a lot though.
Upgrade without the card gain is easily worth $4, because you often play it without the card gain anyway (trashing Copper). Sweeper does better because the trashing isn't even forced. That is why I say that it is certainly too strong for $3 and quite possibly too strong for $4.
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msg319153#msg319153 date=1385560185]
Avalanche (Action, Cost:3)
+1 Card
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your Deck until you reveal a card that is not the named card. Put the revealed cards into your hand.
This is an alright idea, but it would be very weak in general. Even at $2, I would usually pass this up, because it requires both a good guess for the top card of your deck and that the top of your deck have multiples of that same card for Avalanche to really pay off. While it can draw a bunch of Copper in the early game, that is extraordinarily luck-dependent.
I would suggest replacing +1 Card with +1 Action and dropping the price to $2. Making it non-terminal means it's a bit less harmful when you guess incorrectly, as it would then just be a cantrip.
You describe a "big play" scenario with Trader after you've drawn your whole deck... but man, that is such an unlikely scenario. Trader is not usually found in an engine that can draw the whole deck. :P For those rare situations when you can do something really cool with this card, it doesn't matter if it costs a bit less.
Yes. I know that Trader is not the card you will use for an engine. I was speaking hypothetically. But, if you suppose that Avalance and Trader is on the board, you can buy some Traders just to create this kind of mega-turn engine.
Trader was only an example. My purpose was to give a clear idea on how this card can make big plays. If you can somehow fill your discard pile with a bunch of "the same" cards, why not be able to somehow draw them all at once? This is why i created this card. I felt that when you have a discard pile full of -let's say- Silvers and you know that the only cards there are Silvers, there should be a card that will reward that knowledge.
I can give more examples:
- Let's assume you've set up a mega-turn engine with Forager/Trade Route/Salvager and Market Square, using Journeyman and Avalanche as the means to get the get the money into hand. What you do is this: Each time you play one of your payload-trashers, you discard 3 Market Squares and gain 3 Golds, then play a Journeyman and name Gold, to draw the 3 Market Squares back into your hand. After having played a (X) amount of payload trashers and an equal amount of Journeymen, your deck will have been filled with a bunch of Gold, ready to get drawn by your single Avalanche.
- After having played a chain of Stables and your discard pile is filled with Coppers, Avalanche can draw them back into your hand (Counting House can do that too, but it's specifically for Coppers).
- If you the only VP cards in your deck are Provinces/Colonies, you can get multiple benefits from Vault/Secret Chamber: Discard the Provinces/Colonies for +Coins, draw them back into your hand with Avalanche, then discard them again... and so on...
As for the other cases, beside these special ones, maybe i could adjust its functionality a little bit. The +1 Action is something that i don't want to give to this card, because it would make it like an OP Scrying Pool. I want it to be terminal. Maybe it should cost $2 and give it some more reliability. I will think it over.
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I don't think you're in danger of making it too much like Scrying Pool. SP is fully cantrip and it works for ALL action cards, plus it has an attack and some filtering to get started. Your version only works for a single named card, which is far more difficult to set up. Those situations you describe would be fun and awesome to pull off, but they are difficult and not really a reason to cost the card higher.
As scott pointed out above, my suggestion to give it +1 action instead was a poor one. Just reducing the cost to $2 would suffice.
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Wow... wow... wow...
Ok! Ok!
Sweeper will be changed to cost $4! ;D
I was not sure whether this card should cost $3 or $4 anyway. After all these comments, i'm definitely gonna change it to cost $4. And i'll give it some more thought. I'm not sure about that, but maybe i could change it a little bit, but don't expect too much. This is the kind of trasher i always wanted to exist in this game. Straightfarward, simple, clear trasher.
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Chapel is an exceptional case.
Lookout is not cantrip. The +1 card matters a lot. Moreover, it gives you far reduced selection (3 cards instead of your hand) and it gets very dangerous to play in the mid game.
Loan is a copper, which is not at all like a cantrip. And it only trashes treasures. If you buy any other Treasures it will start to whiff (hitting your Silvers and Golds) quite a lot.
Lookout doesn't have +1 Card, but since it trashes from deck instead of hand, it keeps your handsize the same as a cantrip trasher would do, so it seems equivalent to a (nerfed) cantrip trasher to me. The same holds for Loan, which neither costs an action nor decreases handsize any more than Junk Dealer does. (If the top card of my deck is a Copper, playing Junk Dealer to trash a Copper and playing Loan actually do exactly the same thing, both for my current term and for my deck content.)
Of course both cards have the substantial nerfs that you mention, but they also have the advantage of mild filtering resp. giving $1 over a "vanilla" cantrip trasher.
The question is if Lookout and Loan are so weak only because of these nerfs, or if a cantrip trasher isn't that strong to begin with.
It's not about the hand size though. With Loan, it's like you played a cantrip and it drew a Copper. If you played an actual cantrip, you would get an average card from your deck which should be better than Copper. Copper is the stuff you want to get rid of, after all. But alright, "nerfed cantrip" is an OK approximation. The nerfs do matter a lot though.
Upgrade without the card gain is easily worth $4, because you often play it without the card gain anyway (trashing Copper). Sweeper does better because the trashing isn't even forced. That is why I say that it is certainly too strong for $3 and quite possibly too strong for $4.
I agree that "Upgrade without the card gain" would probably be fine at $4; I'm not sure if it becomes too strong with the suggested buff. Anyway, thanks for the discussion!
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Upgrade without the card gain is easily worth $4, because you often play it without the card gain anyway (trashing Copper).
I know that comparing terminals and non-terminals isn't fair, but note that Remake without the card gain would be worth approximately $1, even though you often play it to trash Copper anyway.
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I really like engineer, sweeper (at $4 of course), and street market, and I agree Avalanche's niche is small enough for it to cost $2.
Here's my suggestion for Iron-Processor:
Iron-Processor (Action, Cost:3)
+2 Cards
Discard a card. If it's an... Action card, +1 Action... Treasure card, +(2) Coin... Victory card, +1 Card.
As it was, the only way discarding a treasure could be a gain would be if you had a potion you had no use for anymore, or maybe a bank when all your coin is from action cards. But this way you could effectively turn a copper into a silver for that turn.
Here's my suggestion for Diplomat-Smithy:
Diplomat (Action, Cost:2)
+2 Cards
The player to your left may draw a card. If he does, all other players do as well (including you).
That removes (most of) the politics from it.
The rest of them don't look as interesting to me, but engineer is probably one of my favorite fan-made cards that I've seen.
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@LibraryAdventurer:
I think your suggested Iron-Processor is a bit too strong for $3, and would be good at $4.
-If you have a victory card in hand, you can use it as Smithy with a minor drawback (but with other options)
-If you have copper in hand, you can use it as (approx.) +2 cards +$1, which has similar strength to smithy
-If neither of the above apply, you have a very strong hand (or a lot of curses), and neither of the options is really bad (but also not that good)
(and it combo's with dual typed cards)
On the other hand, your Diplomat-Smithy suggestion is very very weak. It is strictly weaker than Moat without reaction. The removal of politics is good (and it doesn't matter that much that the player on your left chooses, Jester and Possession are worse than this w.r.t. the importance of seating order)
For Diplomat-Smithy I would suggest the original card at $3 with removed (reduced) politics:
Diplomat-Smithy (Action, Cost:3)
+3 Cards
The player to your left may draw a card. If he does, all other players do as well (including you).
I think this wouldn't be too strong.
If there is no discarding attack on the board, the player to your left will usually want to draw a card (especially if the current player has no actions left), because drawing a card out of turn (if you can keep all your cards until the start of your own turn) is usually stronger than drawing a card mid-turn. In this case this might be almost Council Room for $3, but that's not as good as it sounds:
-Council Room generally is pretty bad without discarding attacks;
-The +Buy is really strong on a terminal card which draws 4 cards.
On the other hand, if there are discarding attacks (and you have a few), the player to your left will usually not draw the card, and then this becomes Smithy for $3. Yeah, that's strong, so it definitely combo's with discarding attacks. But if you compare with Council Room or Governor which also combo heavily with discard attacks, then it doesn't seem too strong. Council Rooms draw 1 card more and Governors are non-terminal, and while they give the opponent the benefit of choosing their 3 cards from a bigger hand and both cost $5, they are enough stronger to justify this at $3, in my opinion.
PS: @manthos: I like most of the cards you suggested. They are all pretty balanced (or could be balanced with a minor change), and they all have some reasonably new idea to them. I didn't comment on any other card, because I agree with what (at least) one other person has said before on them, and I don't want to repeat other's opinions.
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@florrat
You know what? I think you're right about both cards.
I've had fun with Council Room, but I've also liked it when my opponent played Council Rooms. Having my opponent (a bot in the game I'm thinking of) play council room turned a crappy hand into a pretty good one a few times. So yeah, making Diplomat-Smithy cost $3 (along with adding the 'all other players including you' bit) should make it fine.