Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Weekly Design Contest => Variants and Fan Cards => Mini-Set Design Contest => Topic started by: LastFootnote on September 10, 2013, 11:30:06 am
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The third contest is to design a card that would fit well in Dark Ages.
Submission Rules
Submit no more than one card per challenge.
You are not obligated to submit a card for every challenge.
Submit your card to me via this forum's messaging system. Submissions made after each week's deadline cannot be accepted.
Each card you submit must have a name, a cost, a list of types, and the exact wording that should appear on the card. Also include a brief description of any special design considerations (e.g., Stash having a unique back), but do NOT include any other information, such as strategic commentary or examples about it would play.
Unlike the previous set design contest, the name you give your card will appear on the ballot. If multiple cards with the same name are submitted, I will differentiate them with letters in a randomly chosen order, e.g. [Card Name] A, [Card Name] B, etc. Cards themselves will likewise be listed in a random order on the ballot.
I will accept revisions to your contest entries provided they are submitted to me before the deadline. If you submit a revision to an entry you have previously submitted to me, resubmit your revised card(s) in their entirety. That is, don't tell me "Oh, can you make that +2 Cards say +3 Cards instead?" Just resubmit the full card.
Only submit cards that are your own design.
You may submit cards that have been previously posted here in this forum, including those that have been refined by the community as a whole, provided you can still claim that the central conceit of the card -- and the majority of its final version -- is yours.
A single card might conceivably qualify for multiple challenges within this series. If your card doesn't win the first challenge you submit it to, you may submit it for any and all future challenges (until it wins), provided the card fits those challenges. This is particularly pertinent for cards that don't win the first of two slots for a large expansion, although depending on which card does win, your card may not qualify for the second challenge.
Do not disclose your submissions publicly, either in this thread or elsewhere!
For this Treasure Chest set, you may not submit cards that combine certain mechanics from multiple expansions. The idea is that you could simply slot the cards into their respective sets without needing components or rules specific to another set. Specifically:
Duration cards may only be submitted as candidates for a Seaside slot.
Potion-cost cards may only be submitted as candidates for the Alchemy slot.
Cards that use VP tokens or cost $7 or more may only be submitted as candidates for a Prosperity slot.
Cards that use Coin tokens and cards that use overpay may only be submitted as candidates for the Guilds slot.
Cards that use Ruins (Looters) and cards that use Spoils may only be submitted as candidates for a Dark Ages slot.
Many mechanics are fair game for any submission. The following is an incomplete list.
Victory/Action and Victory/Treasure hybrid cards.
Cards that allow you to choose an ability from a list.
Cards with on-buy, would-gain, on-gain, and on-trash abilities.
I will be putting some constraints on the set as a whole.
The raw number of cards (including randomizers) must not exceed 150.
Challenge #3 : Dark Ages
Design a Kingdom card that would fit into the Dark Ages expansion. Ideally such a card will have one or more of the following qualities:
Does something when you trash it.
Trashes itself and/or other cards.
Upgrades other cards.
- Cares about the trash.
- Uses Ruins.
- Uses Spoils.
The bullet points () are the set's major themes, and the hyphens (-) are the set's minor themes.
The deadline for this week's challenge is Monday, September 23, 2013 at 8am CDT.
If you have any questions, please post them here or send me a private message and I will endeavor to answer them in a timely manner. Good luck!
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Voting Rules
I will not accept votes until Wednesday, September 25, 2013 at 8am CDT. There are two reasons for this. First, I've almost certainly made some mistakes and I want the card authors to have time to contact me so I can make fixes. Second, I want everybody to have the chance to critique and discuss the cards for a few days.
The deadline for turning in your ballots is Monday, September 30, 2013 at 8am CDT.
We are using an approval voting system. That means you can vote for as many of the cards as you like, but only once for each card. Feel free to vote for your own card if you submitted one. When you send in your ballot, simply list the cards you'd like to vote for.
I will generally not accept revisions to ballots. I recommend you send your ballot in later rather than earlier in case you change your mind about some of your votes.
The winning card may (and likely will) be revised, so I encourage you vote for a card if you think it could be great with a different cost or some slight tweaking.
***** There are 3 Kingdom cards on the ballot that use a supplementary (non-Kingdom) card. In each case, there are 5 copies of the supplementary card. *****
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
EDIT: Added "+1 Action." to Cultivate at the author's request.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Clarification: If you discard several cards at once, you can reveal a Patrol separately for each card discarded.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
EDIT: Added "+1 Card per Action card discarded" to Junkyard (A).
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
EDIT: If you trash a Victory card with Smelter, it gives you +2 Cards, not +1 Card.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
EDIT: Added "+2 Cards." to Barrister.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
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| Mortuary | markusin | 14 |
| Renovate | Robz888 | 13 |
| Incendiarist | GwinnR | 11 |
| Patrol | Watno | 10 |
| Bargain | GeoLib | 10 |
| Garderobe | jamespotter | 9 |
| Charter (A) | math | 8 |
| Smelter (A) | Archetype | 8 |
| Heretic | A Drowned Kernel | 8 |
| Iron Maiden | SirPeebles | 8 |
| Archaeologist | Aidan Millow | 8 |
| Ignoble Brigand | awildnoobappeared | 7 |
| Stronghold | WanderingWinder | 7 |
| Danse Macabre | dghunter79 | 7 |
| Brick | NoMoreFun | 6 |
| Carpenter | Schneau | 6 |
| Smelter (B) | cluckyb | 6 |
| Tribal Man | Powerman | 5 |
| Bricklayer | -Stef- | 5 |
| Mendicant | Kirian | 5 |
| Junkyard (A) | mail-mi | 4 |
| Charter (B) | Asper | 4 |
| Blood Feud | Just a Rube | 4 |
| Model Village | Jack Rudd | 3 |
| Disciple/Savior | Eistee | 3 |
| Pact | Matt_Arnold | 3 |
| Miser | jackelfrink | 3 |
| Robber Baron | werothegreat | 3 |
| Sacrifice | ChocophileBenj | 3 |
| King of the Slums | Captain Stupendous | 3 |
| Junkyard ( C) | sudgy | 3 |
| Surveyor | Titandrake | 3 |
| Drug | ray | 3 |
| Ravage | XerxesPraelor | 2 |
| Ferret | RobertJ | 2 |
| Soldier | eHalcyon | 2 |
| Garrison | market squire | 2 |
| Angry Mob/Mob Boss | andwilk | 2 |
| Cultivate | dnkywin | 1 |
| Necromancy | heatthespurs | 1 |
| Priestcraft | yuma | 1 |
| Raid | kn1tt3r | 1 |
| Cemetary | Saucery | 0 |
| Deathmonger | soulnet | 0 |
| Astral Conqueror | Beyond Awesome | 0 |
| Junkyard (B) | ConMan | 0 |
| Alehouse | Guy Srinivasan | 0 |
| Satans Workshop | nopawnsintended | 0 |
| Condottiero | Nic | 0 |
| Street Sweeper | HeavyD | 0 |
| Barrister/Claim | LastFootnote (feedback) | 0 |
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I wonder how many submissions will contain the word 'trash'? By my count, 22/35 cards in Dark Ages do (counting Knights as 1 and excluding Ruins/gain only cards). It's very possible to design a card that fits that has nothing to do with trashing.
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I have a bunch of ideas for this and I won't be able to submit every one. Can you tell us what kind of extra restriction might be placed on the second Dark Ages contest? It is probably contingent on the concept of the first DA winner.
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It is probably contingent on the concept of the first DA winner.
Bingo.
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Do you like mine? It's a variation of one of my old cards.
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I love mine, but it's a bit arrogant to claim Donald X stole your idea. He said it was one of the only cards same from the very beginning.
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Considering all 3 major points would include the word trash, probably almost all the submissions will. I should try to do one without it just to fit this.
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A word of caution to anyone who is thinking of counting cards in the trash or otherwise using the trash pile. The trash fills up much faster in four player games than in two player games.
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It is probably contingent on the concept of the first DA winner.
Bingo.
I'm curious in what way though. Like, if the winner has an on trash clause, will the next contest ban it?
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It is probably contingent on the concept of the first DA winner.
Bingo.
I'm curious in what way though. Like, if the winner has an on trash clause, will the next contest ban it?
Do you really want LastFootnote to make some definitive statement ahead of time? I imagine it's the sort of restriction that will be common sense. A sort of you know it when you see it type of deal, to ensure some variety. Obviously if the card which wins hits all of the themes listed, it isn't going to bar all of the themes in the next go.
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It is probably contingent on the concept of the first DA winner.
Bingo.
I'm curious in what way though. Like, if the winner has an on trash clause, will the next contest ban it?
Do you really want LastFootnote to make some definitive statement ahead of time? I imagine it's the sort of restriction that will be common sense. A sort of you know it when you see it type of deal, to ensure some variety. Obviously if the card which wins hits all of the themes listed, it isn't going to bar all of the themes in the next go.
I'm looking for a gist of it, not definitive statements. But that's fair.
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Does something when you trash it.
Trashes itself and/or other cards.
Upgrades other cards.
- Cares about the trash.
- Uses Ruins.
- Uses Spoils.
Is "cares about the trash" really a minor theme, as opposed to a special case of the general "interaction with trashing" theme?
Another arguable minor theme of Dark Ages is "unorthodox configurations of cards": supply piles with differently-named cards in them; a kingdom pile with 20 cards in it; a $1 cardDark Ages more than any other expansion is the place for cards that break the rules of how Dominion cards work in various ways.
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Man, I can see why rinkworks burned out after running a contest like this.
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Man, I can see why rinkworks burned out after running a contest like this.
Perhaps you could get some volunteers (who are active enough that you could trust them) to run various rounds?
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Man, I can see why rinkworks burned out after running a contest like this.
Perhaps you could get some volunteers (who are active enough that you could trust them) to run various rounds?
Also i think nobody would be mad if you felt you needed to pause the contest for a week or so... Gives us more time to fix our cards, and after all, you're doing us a favour.
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I'd be more than willing to take over for the second one of every big expansion.
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Man, I can see why rinkworks burned out after running a contest like this.
Perhaps you could get some volunteers (who are active enough that you could trust them) to run various rounds?
Also i think nobody would be mad if you felt you needed to pause the contest for a week or so... Gives us more time to fix our cards, and after all, you're doing us a favour.
Seconded. I wasn't even prepared for a Dark Ages submission yet
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Man, I can see why rinkworks burned out after running a contest like this.
Perhaps you could get some volunteers (who are active enough that you could trust them) to run various rounds?
Also i think nobody would be mad if you felt you needed to pause the contest for a week or so... Gives us more time to fix our cards, and after all, you're doing us a favour.
Seconded. I wasn't even prepared for a Dark Ages submission yet
OK, I will amend the deadline to make it Monday after next, effectively giving the contest a week hiatus.
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Cross-posting this here.
Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.
Due to the ridiculous amount of work that would be for me, I won't allow it. I will allow a maximum number of two cards for any given submission. Either a stack of Kingdom cards with two different cards in it or a Kingdom card and a supplementary card (which can have no more than 5 copies, maybe less depending on how many Victory cards we have).
Please do not read this as a challenge! I prefer single-card submissions.
While this should apply for all contests, it is somewhat more relevant for Dark Ages.
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Donald had stated the the discard pile is a minor theme as well (if I remember correctly)
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No idea what I want to submit for this.
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No idea what I want to submit for this.
Cabbage Merchant. Now is the time Robz.
Seriously, if anyone can't think of a name for their card this round, call it Cabbage Merchant please. ;)
A few other name suggestions:
Ravine
Barbarians
Plague
Forgotten Tome
Abbey
Cats ;)
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This is Medieval times. Cats are too close to witches; we clearly need "Terriers" as our Rats-slayers.
But other options:
Saint
Castle
Crag
Monastery
Priory
Pardoner
Simoner
Summoner
Paladin
Burgh
Charter
Privilege
Vassal
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Magical Mr. Mistoffelees.
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Supernova
Wormhole
Time Loop
...What, space is dark, right?
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Though neither a theme nor a sub-theme, Dark Ages emphasizes combos between specific cards. Expect me to be more forgiving to cards which only effective for a subset of boards
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Does the 150-card restriction for the Treasure Chest set mean that a Hermit/Madman or Urchin/Mercenary type of card (one that upgrades itself into another card and uses 20 total cards) will not be allowed for this submission?
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Cross-posting this here.
Come to think of it, I am a bit worried that someone will make a pile like Knights which would be a real strain on the ballot space-wise, particularly if several people submit such ideas.
Due to the ridiculous amount of work that would be for me, I won't allow it. I will allow a maximum number of two cards for any given submission. Either a stack of Kingdom cards with two different cards in it or a Kingdom card and a supplementary card (which can have no more than 5 copies, maybe less depending on how many Victory cards we have).
Please do not read this as a challenge! I prefer single-card submissions.
While this should apply for all contests, it is somewhat more relevant for Dark Ages.
From literally the last page. The upgraded card can have at most 5 copies, which isn't terribly restrictive.
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I actually think limiting to 5 copies is pretty restrictive, but anyways the bigger problem I see is that it would preclude victory cards, which need 12 slots rather than 10.
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Sure. I guess I was thinking more of Mercenary than Madman when I wrote that, and not at all about novel ideas. It's nothing to worry about in the end, though. When LF
dies of overwork wraps up a successful contest, all the people who wanted to turn the small expansion into a big one will come out of the woodwork. I'm guessing we'll get dedicated contests for all these sorts of things, in addition to the fabled Potion-cost Duration card.
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Cross-posted: One thing I'd like to note is about themedness. I think rather than trying to shoehorn into the noted themes, just make the card feel like it belongs in the expansion. Someone made a comment that they didn't vote for one of the prosperity cards because it only had the two minor themes. Well, this may be more than enough for me, but the point is, it used VP tokens, and to my mind, any card using VP tokens is Prosperity-feeling, even if that was only originally on three cards. Likewise, any duration card will feel seaside, most choice cards are going to feel intrigue, on-gain or on-buy stuff will feel Hinterlands; of course, whether these effects feel like they fit on the card or have been tacked on is another important issue, but I don't think some strict 'it isn't on the list' thing makes for a fun game. Just my two cents.
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Cross-posted: One thing I'd like to note is about themedness. I think rather than trying to shoehorn into the noted themes, just make the card feel like it belongs in the expansion. Someone made a comment that they didn't vote for one of the prosperity cards because it only had the two minor themes. Well, this may be more than enough for me, but the point is, it used VP tokens, and to my mind, any card using VP tokens is Prosperity-feeling, even if that was only originally on three cards. Likewise, any duration card will feel seaside, most choice cards are going to feel intrigue, on-gain or on-buy stuff will feel Hinterlands; of course, whether these effects feel like they fit on the card or have been tacked on is another important issue, but I don't think some strict 'it isn't on the list' thing makes for a fun game. Just my two cents.
Agreed. When making cards, the first thing I'd think about is, "How will this work with other cards in the expansion?" Sorry I didn't really emphasize that.
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In the bold predictions thread, someone predicted that people would submit card concepts that Donald X. had already tested and found not to work, as documented in the Secret Histories. It may be a good idea to read up on the Secret Histories to keep yourself from falling into that trap. While reading all of them might be too time consuming, it might be good to at least read one for each contest.
Here is a link to Dark Ages Secret History (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4318.0).
Here's a big one to consider:
- A few cards tried to provide other uses for the Ruins pile. One was "+1 Card +1 Action, play the top Ruins, put it on the bottom." It was cute but there's a tracking issue. I did Ironmonger instead. Another card played the top four Ruins. It gave you +$3 instead if the Ruins ran out, because what fun is that.
So be careful if you do something like this.
Oh, also, two more card name suggestion -- Mourners and Coroner. I wanted to save Coroner for the second DA contest, but I think the card I have in mind may be too similar to BoM to work. I have some other crazy ideas anyway. ;)
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Oh, also, two more card name suggestion -- Mourners and Coroner.
I believe the Squire was trashed by the Steward in the Laboratory!
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Oh, also, two more card name suggestion -- Mourners and Coroner.
I believe the Squire was trashed by the Steward in the Laboratory!
The Squire, on his death, turned into a witch to curse the Steward for the rest of his life...
But, the Steward just threw the curses away with the other useless junk.
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Oh, also, two more card name suggestion -- Mourners and Coroner.
I believe the Squire was trashed by the Steward in the Laboratory!
The Squire, on his death, turned into a witch to curse the Steward for the rest of his life...
But, the Steward just threw the curses away with the other useless junk.
This reminds me of a few other card names that might be fun: Ghost and Poltergeist. Maybe they're too "fantasy", but they could be fun.
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Name Suggestions:
House
Mill
Farm
Lumber Camp
Mining Camp
Dock
Barracks
Outpost
Palisade Wall
Villager
Fishing Ship
Militia
Loom
Town Center
Scout Cavalry
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I think Ghost and Poltergeist could be OK, as would Phantom, Spectre, or Apparition or variations thereof. There are Witches and Familiars, after all.
Ooh, speaking of Witches, Pyre and Bonfire are good card names too.
Unrelated, Shepherd and Spinner also work, I think.
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Bonfire
Reading Wheel of Time, I read this as Balefire.
Balefire
Trash a card from your hand. Everything it did last turn is reversed.
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In the bold predictions thread, someone predicted that people would submit card concepts that Donald X. had already tested and found not to work, as documented in the Secret Histories. It may be a good idea to read up on the Secret Histories to keep yourself from falling into that trap. While reading all of them might be too time consuming, it might be good to at least read one for each contest.
Here is a link to Dark Ages Secret History (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4318.0).
Here's a big one to consider:
- A few cards tried to provide other uses for the Ruins pile. One was "+1 Card +1 Action, play the top Ruins, put it on the bottom." It was cute but there's a tracking issue. I did Ironmonger instead. Another card played the top four Ruins. It gave you +$3 instead if the Ruins ran out, because what fun is that.
So be careful if you do something like this.
There was another that played the top 4 ruins. Not sure what the problem with that one was.
Another benefit of reading the secret histories is that you learn of the different ways that Donald X. was able to simplify cards where possible. For example, there was an action card that was put back into your hand when you played it. It became Diadem. Another gave you +1 coin whenever you played another card or something. It became Horn of Plenty. I'm really happy none of those cards with vanilla bonus multiplier/swapper mechanics made it into a set.
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Another benefit of reading the secret histories is that you learn of the different ways that Donald X. was able to simplify cards where possible. For example, there was an action card that was put back into your hand when you played it. It became Diadem. Another gave you +1 coin whenever you played another card or something. It became Horn of Plenty. I'm really happy none of those cards with vanilla bonus multiplier/swapper mechanics made it into a set.
I do love those stories. Or the one where "Dominion 2" became Kingdom Builder. Donald seems to have a knack for turning obvious-but-bad ideas into interesting-and-good products in such a way that you have to know the connection to realise the two are related.
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Another benefit of reading the secret histories is that you learn of the different ways that Donald X. was able to simplify cards where possible. For example, there was an action card that was put back into your hand when you played it. It became Diadem. Another gave you +1 coin whenever you played another card or something. It became Horn of Plenty. I'm really happy none of those cards with vanilla bonus multiplier/swapper mechanics made it into a set.
I do love those stories. Or the one where "Dominion 2" became Kingdom Builder. Donald seems to have a knack for turning obvious-but-bad ideas into interesting-and-good products in such a way that you have to know the connection to realise the two are related.
Quiz: Which card is (basically) a Treasure-Duration, that is, a Treasure that stays in play until you buy a Victory card?
Solution: Treasury
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WanderingWinder : and what about Lumberjack, Miner (forgot how (s)he's called in the game) and Builder ?
Asper : it could have fit well in Prosperity, but it looks a lot like a Duration card. So it's the 9th Duration card to me.
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Name Suggestions:
House
Mill
Farm
Lumber Camp
Mining Camp
Dock
Barracks
Outpost
Palisade Wall
Villager
Fishing Ship
Militia
Loom
Town Center
Scout Cavalry
Age of Empires reference!
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WanderingWinder : and what about Lumberjack, Miner (forgot how (s)he's called in the game) and Builder ?
Those are all villagers.
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Currently I have four different ideas for a DA card, any of which I could see people either loving or hating. Is there anyone who would be willing to help me decide on which to submit (by PM)?
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I'd be willing to for anyone, but my response might take a day or so, and I am by no means an expert.
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I'd be willing to for anyone, but my response might take a day or so, and I am by no means an expert.
Well, given your success in the Hinterlands contest, you're probably more of an expert than me. :)
I'll PM you. I mostly just need someone to tell me which of my ideas are too crazy and which (if any) are okay.
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I'd be willing to for anyone, but my response might take a day or so, and I am by no means an expert.
Well, given your success in the Hinterlands contest, you're probably more of an expert than me. :)
I'll PM you. I mostly just need someone to tell me which of my ideas are too crazy and which (if any) are okay.
I'm open too.
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I also am totally willing to trade feedback on someone else card for feedback on my own =)
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I'd be willing to for anyone, but my response might take a day or so, and I am by no means an expert.
Well, given your success in the Hinterlands contest, you're probably more of an expert than me. :)
I'll PM you. I mostly just need someone to tell me which of my ideas are too crazy and which (if any) are okay.
I'm open too.
I also am totally willing to trade feedback on someone else card for feedback on my own =)
Thanks. I may or may not PM one of you (or both of you) as well, maybe depending on jamespotter's feedback.
Also, I'm willing to give anyone else feedback too, just shoot me a PM.
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I'll repeat that I'm always open to giving feedback as well.
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*Eagerly awaits ballot*
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*Eagerly awaits ballot*
Just a reminder: I extended the deadline until next Monday.
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So now that the first Hinterlands challenge is over, how is Dark Ages working out for everyone? I had my card finalized sometime last week. I can't find anything to change about it. I just wish it was actually a Dark Ages card.
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I have a somewhat cute but also very boring idea, which I actually have a feeling might be submitted by someone else anyway. But nothing beyond that.
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*Eagerly awaits ballot*
Just a reminder: I extended the deadline until next Monday.
Aw, ok.
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*Eagerly awaits ballot*
Just a reminder: I extended the deadline until next Monday.
Aw, ok.
Hey you, go post in modern community!
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I probably won't participate. All my card ideas are either taken, bad, or not allowed :(
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Guys, I'm making a small adjustment to the contest: I'm allowing entries of Treasure cards even though we already have one in the set. As I said elsewhere, the goal here isn't really to make this set's cards work with each other. Rather they should work in their "native" set. That being the case, it doesn't make much sense to put a limit on how many Treasure cards this set has. I may still eventually lock out Victory card submissions due to the 150 card limit, though.
If you have a Treasure card you'd like to submit for this contest (or if you already submitted one but then read the rule and submitted a different card instead), please PM me before Monday morning with your new submission. Thanks.
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On a totally unrelated note, I now reserve the right to enter my own cards into these contests and then disqualify them if they win. Really, this contest is a great way for me to get feedback on cards I want to use for my own set, since lots more people comment on these contest cards. Think of it as a way to pay me back for hosting this contest. ;D
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You should put up the ballot now.
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You should put up the ballot now.
But there's still several hours left. I haven't submitted yet. Heck, I haven't even picked which of the last few I've narrowed down to that I *want* to submit yet.
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On a totally unrelated note, I now reserve the right to enter my own cards into these contests and then disqualify them if they win. Really, this contest is a great way for me to get feedback on cards I want to use for my own set, since lots more people comment on these contest cards. Think of it as a way to pay me back for hosting this contest. ;D
Why disqualify them - doesn't really seem necessary to me :)
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On a totally unrelated note, I now reserve the right to enter my own cards into these contests and then disqualify them if they win. Really, this contest is a great way for me to get feedback on cards I want to use for my own set, since lots more people comment on these contest cards. Think of it as a way to pay me back for hosting this contest. ;D
Why disqualify them - doesn't really seem necessary to me :)
Because he also tallies the votes.
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On a totally unrelated note, I now reserve the right to enter my own cards into these contests and then disqualify them if they win. Really, this contest is a great way for me to get feedback on cards I want to use for my own set, since lots more people comment on these contest cards. Think of it as a way to pay me back for hosting this contest. ;D
Why disqualify them - doesn't really seem necessary to me :)
Because he also tallies the votes.
Wow, that is a really good reason, but not the one I had in mind. I would never think of mucking with the votes, so it didn't even occur to me that it might look bad if my cards won. If I were going to muck with the votes, I would be doing it to make sure the submissions I thought were best won. But I haven't, and won't.
The real reason is that I want to include the specific cards I'm talking about in my own expansion. Because of the way I play Dominion (mixing two sets together at a time), it's anathema to me to have a card exist in more than one set. I still keep my real-life cards in boxes sorted by expansion. A place for every card and every card in its place.
Please don't think of this as a "my cards are too good for this contest" thing, because that's definitely not the case. If I were to think of, say, a really awesome Duration card, I would have totally submitted it to a Seaside contest and not disqualified it if it won. Now that Polk has made his point about conflicts of interest, I'd think twice about doing that.
Anyway, just trying to be honest here. Hope you guys don't think any less of me. The Dark Ages ballot should be up soon-ish!
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And the ballot is up! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9360.msg291130#msg291130) A lot of cool cards this time around. If I missed your card or got it wrong, PM me ASAP!
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Soldier
Types: Action Attack
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
What are the costs of this card?
The cards I like:
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Nice idea of searching for action cards.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
I like the idea of trashing from play. This can lead to crazy combos, but I think this card is "normal" enough.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
A cool way of recycling the trash, without stealing all cards of it.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
You can choose how to attack...Thumbs up. I like those cards like Tribute or Ironmonger.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Cool version of Death Cart.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
A better and cooler version of Salvager with a sort of Fortress-Reaction.
Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
Cool! Now you have to think, if you want to use the Spoils or not. I think this is my favorite. But I think this should be cheaper, especially if there are no other Spoils-Gainers. Maybe it should cost only 4$.
Smelter (B)
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +1 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
Also cool idea to "gain" something when a card is trashed.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Nice way of making profit of Ruins.
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Brief comment: there's a bunch of cards here which make it possible to gain Action cards to hand. How does this interact with Nomad Camp? You choose where it goes?
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Brief comment: there's a bunch of cards here which make it possible to gain Action cards to hand. How does this interact with Nomad Camp? You choose where it goes?
Donald X. once said that he has not ruled on this, but would probably say that you choose.
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I feel that the quality of the cards here is much improved over Hinterlands. Here are the cards I like, given a score between 1 and 3 and my comments for them. If your card is on this list at all, I think it's very cool and would be relatively happy if it won. (though mine winning is best, of couse) :)
Cultivate - 2 points
I find the bottom half unnecessary, and the cost can be reduced to 4, as its self-synergy isn't worth the complication it creates, but it's very interesting, giving you upgrades, but forcing you to have it be a victory card every half of the time. I've always found the mechanic it notices interesting, and I like this implementation. It does need quite a bit of tweaking, though.
Renovate - 3 points
Just a nice simple upgrader card I'm quite surprised hasn't been done yet. Simple, not too similar to other DA cards, a problem very evident here, and gives an interesting spin to TfB. Full points.
Ravage - 3 points
A powerful attack, similar to pillage but not quite as powerful with another neglected mechanic. I think the discard makes up for its strength. It could use a bit of simplification, though. Also full points here.
Miser - 1 point
Simple is worth a point all in itself, and this is probably the simplest card here that's cool. Because the bonuses all have to do with money, the name fits well, and that's worth something. Not interesting enough, though, so I'll give this a 1.
Charter (a) - 2 points
Another fitting card, and I like that it implements the 'trash the top card or your deck' in a non-swingy way that still adds something to the game.
King of the Slums - 2 points
Dark Ages really needs a card that makes use of ruins. As they stand, ruins are just pretty much bad curses, but this card can change their role pretty well. One of the best ruin-for benefit.
Iron Maiden - 2 points
Choices are nice, and the trilemma between discarding good for good or bad for bad is very interesting. It's not very Dark Ages-y, but still very nice.
Archaeologist - 3 points
My favorite of all the Ruins-related cards. Simple, interesting, has good reactions, and changes the game in a pleasant way, I expect.
Drug - 3 points
Similar to Hamlet in a good way. It's simple too, and thematic. All-around great, so full points.
Blood Feud - 2 points
I didn't see this one the first time, and I think it works with itself in a very nice way. It can be a cannibalizing village, but of course it works better with ruins. It's a well-implemented idea, it's just that so many of the other cards are even cooler.
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And the ballot is up! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9360.msg291130#msg291130) A lot of cool cards this time around. If I missed your card or got it wrong, PM me ASAP!
You weren't kidding when you said there were a lot of cool cards. My poor card submission.
Also, Smelter(B) is missing it's cost.
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Because of some craziness this weekend I didn't get around to submitting a card, but hopefully that means I will be unbiased in my comments on the cards here.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
I'm not sure why the "other than Cemetery" clause is needed. In the worst case, this is a 2 VP card, and if you spent $5 getting it, then you were probably in a position where you want those 2 VP. Since most of the benefit from it is how many VP it scores at the end of the game, by the time you get it you almost certainly don't want to trash it.
Without support it almost certainly doesn't seem worth going for. It's probably not going to be worth more than 2 VP (without support), and spending $5 to replace a card in your deck with a 2 VP card isn't good. With support it could be decent, but I'm not sure that it's really exciting.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
This feels too similar to Fortress...a $4 village with an on-trash bonus. It also seems like it could run into tracking issues. I trash Model Village to trash Model Village to trash Catacombs and gain Inn and shuffle things into my deck and gain Death Cart and two Ruins, and gain Noble Brigand and attack everyone...With the right combination of on-gain and on-trash effects, having an on-trash effect that both trashes and gains could get hectic. On the other hand, this is Dark Ages, so maybe that's okay.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trased card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
I feel like this compares way too favorably to Remodel. You lose $1 of value, but in return you get an extra card in hand, potentially an extra action, and the flexibility to choose the card based on what you need to do this turn. Actually it may even compare too favorably to Upgrade, although I guess it doesn't get the extra card for Copper trashing which could be a big deal. Still, +$2 to trash Estates into Silvers seems too strong for $4.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
I think I like this card, the on-trash effect is quite interesting. You get a little boost this turn, but water your deck down with Copper and probably Gold (assuming you trashed it with another Brick). I feel like there could be some issues with trashing from play, though I can't think of any.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
This seems interesting but maybe too weak or too swingy. I understand that there's supposed to be a risk with trashing the top card of your deck, and that you're supposed to connect these to avoid that risk, but that's not the problem that I have (although I suspect connecting them will generally be tough, which is part of what makes them weak). The problem that I have is with playing this in the early game and hitting your other opening buy. You could just not play it whenever you draw it T3 without your other opener (or T4 without having seen your other opener yet), but then you just opened with a card that hurts your T3/T4. I don't know...I want to like it, but it's hard to imagine ever buying it, even in the context of DA on-trash effects. I like weak cards, but I think I would need to be convinced that this isn't too weak to be worth ever getting. I think the fact that it's reaction counters itself makes it weaker and swingier as well.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
This sounds crazy strong. It's almost a Salvager, but it also gains a card costing less than the trashed card, which already sounds very strong (trash a Gold for a Duchy and +$5 in the end game sounds crazy), but then it also puts the gained card into your hand, which opens the door for insanity. DA is all about insanity, but usually in the form of combos, not insanity on one card by itself.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
I don't like that this doesn't provide a way to decrease the size of the trash pile in the long run (unless there's Fortress in the trash). That's not a big issue, and it seems nice otherwise, but not terribly exciting.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
This seems like it just slaughters opponents' hands. Their hand slightly improves when you hit a green card, but their deck gets hurt for it. But when you don't hit a green card, this is almost as bad as Pillage, except that it can stack way too much. In a 4-player game, I feel like everyone would be starting with 2-card hands, and not only that, but those 2 cards were probably the worst two cards out of 5. The game just comes to a stop at that point. Okay, maybe it's not that bad because people are getting their Ravages discarded by Ravage, but it still seems horribly painful. If you make it 5 or more instead of 3 or more it might be okay. But still, people don't like attacks that don't benefit themselves, and +1 action is not really enough of a benefit.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I really like the idea here, but it seems weak. It's a $5 Cellar which can become a cantrip if you're willing to take a Ruins into your deck, and then you can trash it for an extra boost. I feel like it could cost $4, but maybe someone can convince me otherwise. I really like it though.
Edit: So there has been a correction stating that this card is supposed to also give +1 card per action card discarded. That may be enough to fix the concern that I had about its weakness, since you get an extra card now if you to take the Ruins. That means that if you take the Ruins it's like a sifting Lab, plus it gets better with more Ruins, but at $5 it's not like it's easy to load up on them. I think I like it better with the update.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This could be crazy when stacked. I think this is a very DA card, I like it a lot.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
This seems cute. It doesn't have "iron" in the name though. Having a single card which can hand out both Ruins and Curses is dangerous, but I think it's okay because how many action and victory cards are you going to trash anyway.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
This can give out Copper without any kind of filter to slow it down. I know Donald X. didn't like that and I think it's for good reason. It does attempt to dodge the problem of running out of cards from the trash to hand out by handing out copies of them from the supply rather than from the trash itself, but I don't think the result is much better than the original problem.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
This compares too favorably to Explorer. The only advantage Explorer has (barring a few edge cases) is that it can gain Gold later on, but it costs an extra $1 and doesn't have the Spoils option. I like the name though and the effect is interesting, it would just need to be adjusted.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This sounds too strong, but I do like it a lot. I think it could cost $5. Either you discard a good card, or it's a cantrip trasher, that doesn't trash from hand. If you get a high enough density of them they approach +3 cards, +1 action. I like it a lot, maybe the price is okay but it sounds strong to me.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse, a Ruins, and a Spoils. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
That's way too many things to be handing out. So it tries to dodge the instant two piles gone problem, that's nice I guess. It gives us Spoils to make up for the fact that we're getting two junk cards, but that's not going to be enough. The Spoils aren't permanent, but the junk is. But even if I'm wrong and this card is balanced, I still don't like it because if you're giving out three junk cards, everyone almost completely loses control over their deck. In a 4-player game, I can take nine cards into my deck before my next turn, even with no villages on the board. That's crazy. The one card that I buy on my turn isn't going to have almost any effect on my deck compared to the nine cards I just got swamped by. At least Mountebank hands out solutions to it's own problem to slow down the rate at which you're getting cards into your deck. This just converts people's decks into a giant pile of Curses, Ruins, and Spoils.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trased card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
I think this is going to be way too hard to track with several of them in play, especially with on-gain and on-trash effects.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
I don't like this as much as Incindiarist because the combined Cursing and Looting on one card is not, in this case, filtered by something you want to do. Once one of the piles runs out, you can choose what card type to discard based on which pile is out, but until then, the hardest option is the action discarding, and you get a Copper for that. It is interesting though, the decision between discarding Treasure for Ruins or Victory card for Curse is nice, but I think having one card hand out both Ruins and Curses without a good filter is not good.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
I think I saw this in another thread recently. It's a nice concept but I think it's just way too weak, almost like a Copper. The advantage it has over Copper I guess is that you can use it for gainers, but it doesn't seem worthwhile usually. Maybe if it were $2 more, like a weird Silver variant, and cost $5 it might be interesting though.
Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
The victory part seems very weak, so I guess you get it for the Spoils. I guess 3 Spoils is not bad. This card just doesn't seem exciting enough to me.
Smelter (B)
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +1 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
It's missing the cost/type. I'm going to guess $3 or $4. I think the victory card benefit could be +2 cards, since that's still worse than Masquerade, and the other options also are probably generally not better than Masquerade.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
I know I've seen this card somewhere before...I think it's less painful than Cultist, but also not very different from Cultist.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
This is absurdly strong. It's like Spice Merchant but not limited to treasures (but without the Woodcutter option), or Masquerade with an action, or Laboratory but with the ability to trash. I though the consensus was that "+1 card, +1 action, trash a card from your hand" was too strong for $4, and this draws an extra card. Okay, so you don't want to use them to trash each other because you get a Ruins, but that punishment is not nearly enough to make it not worth getting several of these. You can just clear out the Ruins with future plays of Street Sweeper.
Also, it should presumably say "Trash a card from your hand."
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Ballot updates:
Soldier and Smelter (B) have costs now. They both cost $3.
A new card has been added to the ballot: Mendicant.
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3 different cards have the typo "trased". Is that just weird coincidence, or did it result from a LastFootnote find-and-replace typo?
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Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
I think I like this card, the on-trash effect is quite interesting. You get a little boost this turn, but water your deck down with Copper and probably Gold (assuming you trashed it with another Brick). I feel like there could be some issues with trashing from play, though I can't think of any.
Duration cards. (Not rules issues, but tracking issues.) At least when you trash a Duration with Procession, the Procession remains in play to remind you the Duration still has pending effects.
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3 different cards have the typo "trased". Is that just weird coincidence, or did it result from a LastFootnote find-and-replace typo?
It must be a tic in my typing. There was no find-and-replace done, but I re-type all the cards when I reword them for consistency.
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Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I was under the impression that new tokens weren't allowed. Or is this with the assumption that you could use other tokens for this different purpose?
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Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I was under the impression that new tokens weren't allowed. Or is this with the assumption that you could use other tokens for this different purpose?
I thought I allowed, but discouraged new tokens. It's possible I'm misremembering.
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On a totally unrelated note, I now reserve the right to enter my own cards into these contests and then disqualify them if they win. Really, this contest is a great way for me to get feedback on cards I want to use for my own set, since lots more people comment on these contest cards. Think of it as a way to pay me back for hosting this contest. ;D
Why disqualify them - doesn't really seem necessary to me :)
Because he also tallies the votes.
Wow, that is a really good reason, but not the one I had in mind. ...
Anyway, just trying to be honest here. Hope you guys don't think any less of me. The Dark Ages ballot should be up soon-ish!
I just stated the obvious reason because it's obvious, not because I believe that you wouldn't moderate the process fairly.
"Perceived conflicts of interest" also is a reason why you might not want to comment on your favorites, but I lobbied you to comment anyway because I think you have real insights into fan cards others don't have.
So, no I don't think less of you!
A side note -- The respect system helps here, too. A reason why people wanted "an established member" of the community to run this contest is because it lends legitimacy and there is an assurance of fewer conflict of interest issues (because reputation & trust has been built). This reduces the cost of running contests like this (e.g. don't have to set up a neutral, tamper-proof ballot box).
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More ballot updates:
Junkyard (A) draws you an extra card per Action card discarded.
Barrister now has "+2 Cards."
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
(I think the strictest reading of the rules would be just one of them, viz.: you discard a bunch of cards simultaneously and atomically, meaning you can only reveal Patrol once. Patrol tries to trash or top-deck all three of them. But all but one have been lost track of, so Patrol can't move them; the only one you can trash or top-deck is the one on top of the discard pile.)
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Approximately 115 minutes of content for me to trim down for my thoughts on these cards...
Maybe it was just me, but I felt like these cards were of somewhat lower quality overall than the first two contests. Many more cards just struck me as duds and the like, and fewer jumped out as really cool ideas. No offence to everyone intended, maybe it's just Dark Ages is harder to make cards for.
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Man there are a lot of cards here. Hard to parse. I'm going to drop several, mainly to conceal which one is mine :P, but also because some are kind of meh.
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
This just seems far too complicated for me to want to try to use it. It seems like a Rebuild-Mine incest baby. In games with no other Victory cards, you're going to want to somehow trash a Cultivate in order to get your other ones up to snuff. Still, a little too complicated, I think.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Has a kind of Rats vibe to it. Once you've trashed two Actions, it's essentially a Duchy that can trash on gain. Not too shabby.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Feels very much like Watchtower. I think I prefer Watchtower. With two of these in hand, you can trash (typically) three cards, but that seems a lot of work to have to line up two cards for. Chapel does that much better for cheaper. The Action part itself is quite nice, though, as a terminal draw.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Cool name. But other than a Ruins trasher that gives you Spoils, this needs a +1 Action if you're using it as a digging Herald.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Tresaure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
I like it.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Cute name, but I see this not having all that much use, except, again, as a Ruins trasher.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
I like it.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
This seems like a very, very dickish thing to do to someone. I like it.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Sort of like a Band of Misfits for the trash instead of the supply. I quite like it. Name is nice, too.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
So, nominally, it's a Laboratory that gains you Ruins that also functions as a Super-Cellar. I somehow feel that this is intrinsically better than Lab.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Cute. Stackable. I like it.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copry of it (you get 2 copies total).
I actually rather like this, and would like to play with it.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
So... you want to save them up for some sort of superturn? I don't think I'd ever keep it in play for the on-buy benefit.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I can see this being rather brutal on 5/2 openings.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Sort of a reverse Rogue. Probably better.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I feel like there's an optimal permutation of choices, but I'm not sure which.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
So if you hit a good card, it essentially just discards it. But if you trash a bad card, you can get a good one from the trash. Interesting. Should this have the $3-$6 restriction?
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils.
Very similar to Miser, above. I think this is better.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Ooo. You're fucked if you draw three Ruined Villages. But I like it.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse, a Ruins, and a Spoils. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
This is too good. A Spoils is just not enough recompense for being hit with a Curse and a Ruins.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
The Action is shit. The Reaction is interesting.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Do you trash the card when you play Alehouse, or when another card is trashed?
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Cute.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
A Salvager/Apprentice without the Buy/Action? Meh.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
So it stacks, unless he discards a Curse.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
Whaaa...? Interesting.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
I think I'd rather have a Silver. But it does cost $1... with +Buy, you're essentially saving $1 for a later turn.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
EVERYONE I KNOW IS DEAD AAHHHHHHHHH *goes mad*
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Innnnnteresting.
Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
Oh, this is just stupid. You're essentially adding 4 dead cards to your deck because you're not going to want to play your Spoils. Unless you get it for the Spoils, and feed the Stronghold to a Salvager or Bishop. Yeah, Bishop would be a better plan than saving up Spoils.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Ehhhh.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Not sure how a Treasure-Attack would work.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Odd. This needs a gainer in order to actually play it.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Man, people like these helpful Ruins-gainers.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Thematic. Would go well with Watchtower.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Intriguing.
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
EDIT: Added "+2 Cards." to Barrister.
So... you want to get other player's Claims, so you can trash your own Claim and get a Gold. Interesting.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
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I'm still digesting this list, but one thing jumped out at me:
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
So lawyers are thieves; I knew it! But doesn't the limitation of 5 extra cards conflict with using this in 6 player games? Not that I'd ever want to play a 6 player game with a Thief variant...
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I'm still digesting this list, but one thing jumped out at me:
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
So lawyers are thieves; I knew it! But doesn't the limitation of 5 extra cards conflict with using this in 6 player games? Not that I'd ever want to play a 6 player game with a Thief variant...
FTFY
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The thought did occur to me. But it is legal...
Edit: Although we could just assume we aren't considering 6 player games, which I'm fine with. I was mostly just wondering if anyone could come up with an elegant way to avoid the problem.
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The thought did occur to me. But it is legal...
Edit: Although we could just assume we aren't considering 6 player games, which I'm fine with. I was mostly just wondering if anyone could come up with an elegant way to avoid the problem.
Ballot updates:
As some of you may have guessed, Smelter (B) is supposed to give "+2 Cards" when you trash a Victory card, not "+1 Cards".
Barrister has a new clarification: in games with 6 players, the first player doesn't get a Claim.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
It needs clarification, at least.
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The thought did occur to me. But it is legal...
Edit: Although we could just assume we aren't considering 6 player games, which I'm fine with. I was mostly just wondering if anyone could come up with an elegant way to avoid the problem.
Just color a blank card with a yellow crayon and label it "Claim"
If that's not elegant enough, maybe a yellow colored pencil? ;D
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Well, here's roughly the first half. Cultivate - Smelter(A). I'll comment on the rest another time.
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
This is interesting. It looks like it would be nice for turning Estates into Silver, and later for turning Treasures into the Victory cards. I feel like getting the bonus VP will be rare though. Unless there is (another) alt-VP card, someone needs to trash a Province. The only way this would be an advantage is if I have at least 3 Cultivates more than my nearest competitor. And even then, we break even on points. If I'm trashing that Province with some awesome TfB card it could be worth it, but if I'm using a Cultivate, I would probably rather turn a Treasure into a VP card. Still, this seems like an interesting card. I would probably make but gains "up to $2 more"; in most games it won't matter, but it will provide more interaction with kingdom victory/treasure cards. (After my first reading, I thought you could trash a Harem and gain two Harem. Now I see that it doesn't work that way.)
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Someone else has mentioned this, but why shouldn't I be able to trash a Cemetery? Anyhow, I am OK with the idea here, but I'm not confident that this implementation will play well. The number of differently named Action cards in the trash is a shared variable. I don't want to trash my precious, precious Action cards unless I am confident that I will benefit (substantially) more than my opponent(s). That is, not until I have clearly won the split by a decent margin. But at that point, the on-gain trashing is too late.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
My gut feeling is that the above-the-line is really, really strong. I suppose in some ways it is similar to Minion, but terminal and without the attack. But it draws one additional card and allows you to hold on to good cards. I feel like Patrol would be amazing at pairing up key cards. Definitely feels like a powerful terminal draw/sifter for $3. And that's before coming to the below-the-line effect. The discarding is atomic, which helps to temper this a bit as AJD pointed out. Still, you are tacking light trashing onto an already powerful terminal draw? All for $3? I dunno, maybe I'm wrong and this isn't as powerful as it seems. Overall, I like the above-the-line effect, even if I'm unsure of the power.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Feels odd that a Model Village costs more than a Village. Maybe it is in the sense of a model citizen? Or an entire town full of guys from Calvin Klein ads? Feels a little too similar to Fortress. Fortress was already a little iffy since it is only an overpriced Village when there is no trashing, but its trash effect is so unique that many of us let it slide. This effect feels less unique and special. I mean, it just gives a free play of Remodel if you happen to trash it.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
I'm going to assume that the other revealed cards get discarded, although I'm not sure if it is before my choice or after. This seems really powerful with Counting House or Tunnel. I mean, these guys are way easier to get than Golems. But Counting House could use a good support card. And the Tunnel thing isn't so terrible, since you'd have no other Actions in your deck. Seems neat, I guess.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Tresaure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
So another take on Demonic Tutor. This time it looks to me like it may work, since it is already tricky to get that Savior. Definitely swingy, but I could see this being pretty fun.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
I don't like the idea of gaining Nomad Camp to your hand. Also, what happens when I play this while Possessed. My opponent gains the card, but I still play it? Oh, I suppose "it is an Action card" is automatically false, but standard Blue Dog reasons. The idea seems fine.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
As mentioned, there are annoying tracking issues. But otherwise seems fine. Interesting that it can always at least trash itself into a Copper, which makes playing it less risky.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Seems pretty niche. I mean, how often do I want to trash more than Estate, Copper, and maybe Curse? I guess it interacts with Ruins and Shelters. Trashing a Copper and Estate, plus drawing two cards, is pretty nice early on.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
I really don't like this, personally. It just interferes with too many cards.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Again, I don't like gaining Nomad Camp to your hand. That said, I'm just not sure that you need to put the game card into your hand. This feels similar to Salvager, except that you don't want to trash cheap cards with it. Then gain sort of makes up for the lack of +buy, except it does prevent trashing a Province and then buying two. Maybe gaining to hand helps make up for not wanting to trash Estates otherwise.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Again with gaining Nomad Camp to your hand. And treasures during the action phase. And is there a blue dog issue this time with Possession? I'm not entirely sure, but I hope so since I certainly don't want to play a card from someone else's discard. Oh, ugh, and this lets you play one-shots out of the trash over and over? Those were one shots for a reason. I feel like a much cleaner implementation of this idea would be to copy Band of Misfits' wording, but limit the scope to "Action in the trash" rather than "Action costing less in the Supply".
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
This feels like a reusable Pillage. I feel that if they manage to have a Victory card be the priciest, then that should offer them some respite, rather than being hit with a Ruins. And this brutal attack is nonterminal by discarding a card?
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Even ignoring the Ruins, an Action dense deck would love these. Play a few of these, and you will have your whole deck drawn quickly I suspect. I like it.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This seems neat, but could probably cost $4, no? I mean, in most games I don't want to trash any cards costing $2 or more, aside from just my three Estates.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copry of it (you get 2 copies total).
This pretty quickly balloons into being worthy a bajillion coins. I guess the tension is that you won't want to play them, else your opponents' Pacts are stronger? Man, I'd love to be the one to nab Sir Martin on an otherwise buyless board. Why does it cost so little?
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
This pretty quickly becomes a one-shot terminal +$4, with potential for more. Donald X. originally made Feast a one-shot terminal Gold, and he says it was boring because the right play was almost always to open Feast and trash it to buy Gold. I'm afraid that you would just do the same with Ferret.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
This card is interesting. In some games no one will ever burn an Action card, but if someone does then the Ruins will spread like wildfire as every burns them up sending out even more! I suppose it would be a bit tamer in two player. The Curse option would also play different depending on the number of players. Usually you'd only want to burn Estates, and so the amount of kindle depends on the number of players. In two players, you unlikely to ever receive more than 2 or 3 Curses, while in a four player game you could gain upwards of 9 Curses. Copper for Spoils is neat.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
I liked this card when I first read it, but after some thought I feel like this will just be a Copper junker in most games. The Copper pile is so deep in two player game that it just wouldn't be fun, in my opinion. In four player games, on the other hand, this has potential to cause very rapid pile depletion, rather like Ambassador does now.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I like this. Simple.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This doesn't solve the problem of putting good cards into the trash. Unless there is something else putting good cards in the trash, this pretty much boils down to "Cantrip. Look at the top card of your deck; trash it or discard it." I guess it triggers on-trash, and can possibly pick up an Estate in the end game. It's not so bad I guess, particularly when played with lots of DA cards.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Haha, love the name. This seems like a nice card.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils.
Seems alright, but this could maybe be a $4 card? Maybe I'm wrong. Feels a tad weak for $5. Seems a little bit similar to Trading Post.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Cute, but I just don't feel like I'd want to use this card often.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse, a Ruins, and a Spoils. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Ouch that's a lot of junk. Who is the "last player"? I'm confused about that whole sentence. This just feels like too much junk in your deck though. The Spoils don't persist in your deck to counteract the flood. Maybe give people Silver or Gold instead of Spoils? Did you only write Spoils because of the theme, or did you really want it to disappear?
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Wowzers! Masterpiece giving Spoils? Trader giving Spoils? Seems like Smelting the penultimate Province before buying the ultimate one would be a strong play.
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Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Cute name, but I see this not having all that much use, except, again, as a Ruins trasher.
Really? At the very least, it's a much more reliable Loan. If you don't use it for Copper trashing, it adds $1 of value to your deck every time you play it. And unlike Loan, you don't really mind buying too many of them because you can use them to turn each other into Gold.
Actually now I'm wondering, is it in play when you play it? If it is, then you can play it and turn itself into a Copper and a Gold, putting the Copper in hand. That actually seems quite good for BM games.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I can see this being rather brutal on 5/2 openings.
I'm not really sure it's much different from other $5 cursers. Assuming you also buy a $2, you have only a 74.5% chance (75.8% if you open $5/nothing) to connect it with Estate and deal out a Curse on T3 or T4, compared to the 83.3% (90.9% with no $2) chance you have of dealing out a Curse on T3 or T4 with something like Witch, so there's a slight difference there. I'm not sure trashing a single card is that much better than drawing two cards. They both accelerate you a little early on, but I think the +2 cards is slightly faster in the short term and slower in the long term. So I don't think Incendiarist is as bad as Witch, and I would imagine a fair number of other $5 junking attacks are as bad or worse.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
Sure, you'd be able to reveal it for each card. But aside for the card which lands on top, you wouldn't be able to move any to your deck or the trash since they will be covered up.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
Sure, you'd be able to reveal it for each card. But aside for the card which lands on top, you wouldn't be able to move any to your deck or the trash since they will be covered up.
So if I discard multiple tunnels at the same time, I can only reveal one?
Also, I'd like to know where the rules state anything about simultaneous gains being handled differently than simultaneous discards.
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Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Definitely needs to be $5. Otherwise, I like it.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
This one could be political, in Looters games. If you don't like the player to your left and no one's trashed a Curse yet, just look for a Ruins that matches up with the top card of the pile. Probably not a big deal, though.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
I'm worried that this card would be even more overpowering than Rebuild, but a game where everybody's trying to huff up all the Ruins with this card and connect them to their Kings in future turns . . . it just sounds so fun I don't even care. Raid, Blood Feud, and Mendicant would be safer and in the same vein, but I just want this to win so we can tweak it into something balanced. I really want a helpful self-ruiner to win, and I want it to be more lively than treating them like dead cards with type "Action", like Death Cart does.
Of course, making a Ruins strategy too powerful would mean the game is decided by how that pile is stacked, and that's the biggest danger here. I buy this card, get a Library, Mine and Village, and when the next player buys their KotS, they're looking at three Survivors.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
I feel like this could use a horizontal line:
"Trash a card from your hand or from play.
While this card is in play, when you trash a card, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card."
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I actually legit don't understand this card. Do I play the copy of the top card from my hand/deck/the trash and if I don't have it, tough luck? Do I take the top card, play it, and return it? Does the 'copy' not exist anywhere but my mind, and I just get the '+1 Blah' bonus that matches? No one else has commented on this, so I should assume the answer is obvious: I just need someone to clarify. Otherwise, a very interesting spin on 'play multiple Ruins for free'.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Okay, I get why you can't discard the action. But what's wrong with "You may set an Action aside . . . discard it at the end of your turn."? Also, this is pretty much better than Palanquin at a cheaper cost, especially if there are Ruins about. I'm not sure the inability to buy it is a strong enough restriction. Maybe push it up to $5, so you can't Workshop them or Remodel Estates.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
That penalty is crazy steep, and I feel like it could be balanced at $6 even without the -VP.
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Yeah, I really don't think giving yourself a free trash when you play it makes it any less of an attack.
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Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Yeah, I really don't think giving yourself a free trash when you play it makes it any less of an attack.
Ha! It should be Action Attack. I was so busy making sure all the Ruins-using cards had the Looter type that I didn't even check for missing Attack types. Fixed.
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First half of my meaningless commentary. As before, I have a card in this contest (although I won't say which half it's in), so if you feel that I bash your card unfairly, fear not, someone else will bash mine just as unfairly. I see that there are updates since I began typing this, but not ones that affect my rantings, so I will be lazy and not track them down. EDIT: fixed missing [
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
So, I have to trash 4 Victory cards (including a Province if there are no other alt-VP; if there aren't Colonies then I turn it into a gold) to turn it into a Duchy worth of points for anyone who buys one. That seems unlikely to happen. As for the top, it turns Estates into Silvers (or Loans or Fool's Gold, I guess) but lousy for copper trashing. You can Remodel Silvers into Duchy/this or Gold into Province end game. So it's a non-terminal, less flexible Remodel that costs $5 and will probably be worth 1 VP at the end.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
So, if there is no other trashing or looters, this is probably dead, except maybe as an extra stack of duchies in a megaturn. I'm not going to clog up my deck with a $5 worse Duchy just to trash a copper or even an estate. Trashing 2 actions by buying this (if there aren't ruins) is something that would pretty much have to happen close to the end of the game, and even then it helps everyone's cemetaries equally (since the trash pile is communal). Probably doesn't need the "other than a cemetary" clause.
Appropriate name, however, especially considering the interaction with Graverobber.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
So, a terminal, non-handsize reducing sifter. If you have multiple, you can use it as a Chapel when they collide. Or make an opponent's Militia into a Ghostship, I suppose. Anyway, it seems fairly strong, comparable to Warehouse, even without the Reaction.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Without any trashers, it's just an expensive Village, a la Fortress. With trashing, it can be a one-shot remodel. But how often do you really want a one-shot remodel that costs you a Village?
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
So, it's like all the "dig for an Action" cards from the Hinterlands contest, but it potentially turns that action into a one-shot, and gives a Spoils. Also you can't choose the Action. So in short, it's nothing like those cards. Someone else called for giving it +1 Action, but I see that as a balancing act; basically it lets you protect the card if you don't want to trash it. Otherwise, it mostly becomes: dig for an action and play it, maybe trashing it. Still, this card seems like it would be kind of weak for a $5.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Tresaure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
So, the Disciple is basically a terminal "whatever your best treasure is" with the Counting House problem. That's not so great. The Treasure Map-esque effect upgrades to a Demonic Tutor and one-shot King's Court. So this is definitely an Engine card. I'll have to think about this one.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
This seems significantly better than Remodel at the same price. Maybe even stronger than Upgrade; the extra flexibility (both in terms of what you gain and in terms of putting it into hand) probably surpasses the +1 card of Upgrade.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
A trashing treasure, reminiscent of Counterfeit. I'll have to think about this some.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Menagerie meets Dark Ages! Early on this will probably trash Estate-Copper, then Copper. Unless there are Ruins, in which case it's much better. Still, this could probably be $3, or maybe even $2? I don't know, it just seems a little bland (says the guy that submitted a Workshop-Scout combo for Hinterlands).
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Crazy swingy. The top is also probably very weak. Compare Lookout: non-terminal with more control of your trashing (so you can avoid trashing you other opening buy), and offers sifting. As for the bottom, if you can collide them it turns the top into +2 cards, potentially. But mostly it will be used to slow the opponent's trashing (one of these in hand makes trashing impossible). That probably scales very badly with more than 2 players. Interesting idea, though.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
So, this is kind of like a Salvager. If it trashes another copy of itself, that copy becomes a 1-shot Band of Misfits, which is kind of cool. Not sure what else to say about this card (and I apologize for that).
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
So, this has a big problem with cards with on-trash abilities. Many of those abilities are explicitly more powerful than a card of their level could justify, because they will be trashed. Now, this card with Sir Vander reads: "Gain a Gold, each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest." With Cultist, it becomes "+5 cards, each other player gains a Ruins, you can play a Cultist."
Other than that, it's cool.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
This is an insanely powerful attack. Everyone's most expensive card will generally be either a key card or a Victory card. Either way, they are hosed. Adding to the problem, this card doesn't provide any advantage to the player playing it (other than letting them discard their own cards to make it non-terminal), so it will likely lead to a lot of long, stalled games. Especially since it can theoretically hit anyone with more than 2 cards in hand.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
So, a cellar that wants to discard Action cards (and lets you get an extra Lab effect at the cost of either gaining a Ruins or trashing itself). I worry this might be too strong?
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Non-terminal trasher that lets you pick the target very selectively. Becomes a cantrip when trashing estates. OK, but maybe a bit dull?
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copry of it (you get 2 copies total).
So, this is sort of a Chicken sort of situation. Everyone wants to be the last person to spend theirs (because you get more Spoils, and can spend them immediately), but if you never spend them, they are effectively Confusions. That said, if you can draw your deck, these can give an insane amount of money.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
This seems like a mega-turn card, and not a particularly interesting one. At the very least, it could probably use +buy on the top part, to give you some incentive to build a mega-turn engine around it.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I'm not sure I like a way to get both Curses and Ruins in the same game with the same card. The fact that it allows trashing does not fully mitigate these concerns.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Interesting idea for a junker. That said, it scales awkwardly, and has real issues with Ruins, which is a problem for a Dark Ages card.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
So, this is as close as Dominion comes to being strictly better than Explorer (+$2 and gain a Silver) at a cheaper price. And it definitely doesn't want to be at $6, so I don't know how to fix it easily.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Cantrip optional trasher. Does very well with cards with on-trash abilities (including itself). Seems to want you to mass it.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
A non-trashing, less flexible version of Death Cart with a Militia attack. I like the name (it's like Baron, except it uses Ruins instead of Estates, and hurts others). I'm not sure how I feel about the card itself.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils.
Straightforward. I appreciate that. Maybe a bit on the dull side though? Could also probably be a bit cheaper, but that's an easier tweak.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Not a fan of the name; it should clearly be "Slumlord" instead. Consider this a suggested tweak should it win. And that is a perfectly reasonable tweak, so I won't hold it against the card itself; renaming is literally the easiest change to make, as it has no play-balance issues.
As for the card itself, I'm not a fan of the fact that you have no way of predicting whether it will be terminal or not until you play it.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse, a Ruins, and a Spoils. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
No. I do not want a card that can flood your deck with junk this fast. Spoils do not help that. Also don't like the name, this is Dominion not Ascension. Seems out of place. But that's just my personal preference.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Top is not particularly powerful (might be more interesting if it gained to hand instead, although way more powerful) outside trashing Provinces for themselves. Bottom is somewhat interesting, although probably not enough for me to vote for it. Still, interesting idea.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Doesn't really seem like a viable path for Alt-VP. You can't reasonably rush it ($5 is too expensive, and you need to buy and then trash 3 VP cards to get it to be worth as much as an Estate, plus it's worth exactly as many points for your opponent as for you, so denial is fairly painless). It relies on trashing Victory cards to power itself, so it doesn't really work well as an extra pile to give an engine time against BM. BM certainly doesn't want it. $5 for what will likely be a worse Duchy doesn't seem reasonable for a slog either.
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Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I actually legit don't understand this card. Do I play the copy of the top card from my hand/deck/the trash and if I don't have it, tough luck? Do I take the top card, play it, and return it? Does the 'copy' not exist anywhere but my mind, and I just get the '+1 Blah' bonus that matches? No one else has commented on this, so I should assume the answer is obvious: I just need someone to clarify. Otherwise, a very interesting spin on 'play multiple Ruins for free'.
My understanding is that you play a copy that is in the Supply, but you never move it into play. It is sort of like when you Throne Room a Feast. So if Ruined Village is on top, then Archaeologist is a village and make all of your Actions nonterminal. If Ruined Market is on top, then your Highways each give a +buy.
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Ballot updates:
Condottiero and Garrison have new clarifications at the request of their authors.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
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General note -- lots of these cards that gain non-Supply cards needs to mention the pile, e.g. "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile" rather than "gain a Spoils".
One of these is mine.
I hope I read everything correctly. I'm sure that it will be pointed out if I did!
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
I love the name. As an action, it seems fairly weak. Pretty much you follow the standard upgrade paths -- Copper->Estate->Silver->Duchy->Gold->Province->Platinum->Colony. The $1/$2 jump doesn't leave a lot of room for alt Treasures and VP. In particular, you have to have a Duchy to get to a Silver+. I guess that is OK. Might be nice if you could go from Estate to a $4 Treasure though.
On the bright side, this is non-terminal and also VP that is potentially equal to Duchy. At $5, you can go Silver->Cultivate->Gold. Unfortunately, the Duchy level of Cultivate is unlikely to be reached without other alt VP (or Colony) because it's rare that you'll want to trash Province. But I guess there's Overgrown Estate too. I like it.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
This seems very niche. In general, there aren't many actions you want to trash. Cemetery is most likely to be powered by Ruins and self-trashers like Embargo and Pillage. A few others that like to be trashed might make it in, e.g. Cultist, Graverobber. Knights could help, though Rogue not so much. I worry that, outside of Dark Ages, this is just 2VP a vast majority of the time. I guess there's Saboteur and sometimes various TfB to get some other actions in there... still, I don't think it would ever be worth it to focus on trashing actions to build up Cemetery, because your opponents benefit from it too and they don't have to waste time buying and trashing the fodder.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This is pretty clearly a Watchtower-inspired card, even down to the name "Patrol". Like Watchtower, it is fixed draw. It's only 5 cards, but you also get to discard beforehand. This is actually pretty powerful, I think? I don't know... I find this hard to wrap my head around, despite being very simple.
Like Watchtower, the reaction also lets you trash or top deck, but it does so for cards you discard rather than cards you gain. At the very least, you can guarantee this interaction with a second copy of Patrol.
Hmm... could Patrol-Patrol be too strong? In the event that you get both in hand, you can trash a lot and draw back up to a full hand. Chapel is probably faster still, but it's something to consider.
Overall I think it's OK. Probably my biggest problem -- it doesn't really feel like Dark Ages to me. It can potentially trash cards with the reaction, but it doesn't feel very central to the card.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
I don't get the name.
Village with on-trash Remodel. That's not that exciting to me. You need a way to trash the MV first, and then you need to line it up with something that you want to Remodel. That seems like a lot of work for a one-shot mediocre effect. It doesn't actually make a lot of sense to get a $4 village just to trash it either. With Fortress, you get to do it over and over again, so that's exciting. This is less so.
The other use of MV is that it can give you a consolation prize if it gets trashed by various attacks (notably Knights and Rogue). But it's still a mediocre effect and it might happen when there's nothing in hand that you'd want to Remodel. Even considering its defensive properties and some pet tricks (You Governor trash Gold to Province, I chain-trash my entire hand of Model Villages all into Duchies!) this just isn't very exciting.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Interesting Golem variant. It either needs village support or it trashes the action that is played. A ruling might be needed on whether TM should remain in play when it is used to play a Duration. It probably should, just as a reminder that you still get the effect next turn. When TM plays and trashes an action, it also gains a card costing less. I wonder if it would be more or less interesting if it restricted the gain to another action card. It also gives Spoils, which gives it some extra utility that I'm not sure is necessary.
The on-trash is interesting. It provides a mild defense against trashing attacks, and it also makes for excellent Graverobber fodder. It also has some self-synergy -- if TM finds another TM, you can trash it for a different $5 (not to mention another card costing less than $5) and keep searching for something else to play. Is the "not a Tribal Man" restriction necessary? It makes it a bit weaker with Graverobber in that you only get replacement fodder once. I wonder if it was added to prevent immediately emptying the Tribal Man pile by playing TM, finding and trashing TM for another TM, which is then found and played and so on until the pile is out. But this actually can't happen because you have to play the found card before trashing it. So:
Play TM, find TM. Choose to play that TM, finding X. THEN you trash TM and gain two cards. I don't think the restriction is necessary, though maybe there is some odd abuse case I'm missing.
Thinking about it, it actually seems kind of weak to me. The Spoils do help though. Pretty cool.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Tresaure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Disciple is really swingy. Maybe you have one Platinum in your deck and you just happen to draw it early in the shuffle. Now every Disciple is +$5. I have a feeling that I've seen an out-take card with this mechanic in one of the Secret Histories, but I'm not sure. Then there is the Treasure Map mechanic of trashing Disciples to gain Savior. It's not as binary as Treasure Map in that a single Disciple is not a dead card in hand, so that's good.
Savior is super powerful. You can play it as Demonic Tutor (which, now that I think of it, can be construed as a bit offensive with these card names... but it's probably fine). But more than that, you can return Savior to KC the action. If you can play more than one Savior (maybe with TR or KC), it becomes absurd. Having Savior even makes it easier to get more Saviors, because it can help line up stray Disciples in your deck.
I appreciate that Savior is extra powerful because it's difficult to get in the first place, but that just makes it really swingy, so I'm not a fan. I say sincerely though that it was a really good effort.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Mini-Remodel that will play action cards it gains. Nice, simple idea. Immediately playing an action card means that it can be broken though... hmm. OK, Fortress. I Renovate Fortress into a Renovate, which I use to Renovate Fortress into a Renovate, etc. So you can auto-pile Renovate with a Fortress in hand.
Aside from that, I do quite like it. The problem could probably be fixed by putting an anti-Renovate clause on it. And if a change is made, I would really like it if it played ANY gained card possible (i.e. both Actions and Treasures), just for those few interactions with alt Treasures and synergies for hand-size decreasers. Granted, I know some people actively dislike using that BM-esque mechanic.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
OK so this is like Upgrade, but it's a Treasure and it trashes from play. It's better at trashing Copper (you get to play the Copper) but worse at trashing most other junk (can't trash Estates/Curses, have to play Ruins before you can trash it). There are potential tracking issues, especially with duration cards.
But it looks OK in general. Still, it's not that exciting for me.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
A little odd. Starts off arguably better than Steward (it can trash 2 or *more* cards and draw replacements!) but then it gets worse when it can only trash one Copper at a time, or when there's nothing left to trash and you can't use it for just straight +Cards or +$.
As a card, I do like it. I may vote for it, but I'd still prefer something with more flair.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Trash 1-2 cards from the top of your deck. It's not as dangerous as it looks because you can use a second Deathmonger to save your good cards. Of course, it's also a weaker trasher in that other people can block your trashing from succeeding... but if they are blocking you from trashing your Copper, bonus -- you get to put those Copper into your hand for extra money.
I like it in general, though the anti-trashing reaction is a bit scary and potentially very swingy, especially in combination with more powerful trashing. I play Chapel and clear out a bunch of junk! You play Chapel but I block it with Deathmonger, sorry. Still, that might not be a dealbreaker.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
I like the main action. It combines several simple effects in a rather unique way. It's a downgrade-into-hand, and also a mini-Salvager. Very neat.
I'm not as fond of the on-trash. OK, you can Carpenter a Carpenter and still have an action to play the cheap action you gain. Or you could use some other TfB on Carpenter and get a +action bonus, I suppose. I don't think it's interesting enough to be worth the card space. This is more a complaint that a more interesting on-trash wasn't used though, and not as much a negative. Will likely vote for this. The main action is very intriguing.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
It says "choose one" at the start but the way it is written makes it hard to figure out what the choices actually are. I think that the choices are "gain, play and trash" or "Knight attack". It's confusing because the first choice is made up of multiple sentences.
I think there are some tracking issues with putting a card into your hand and then playing it after that. Why not just play it directly from the trash? And there are of course tracking issues with playing a Duration from the trash. I wonder if it's dangerous that the first choice doesn't restrict the price of cards you can grab, but I guess the price range was a bigger issue for Graverobber because it might otherwise grab Provinces.
I like that you can play a Treasure with it.
I'm a little down on it because there are already two trashing attacks in Knights and Rogue and they attack in the same way.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Seems a bit too close to Pillage. It's weaker in that you don't get to choose, but in the early and mid-game when this kind of attack huts the most, the most expensive card is often the most important one. Even when it gets "blocked" by a Province, a Ruins is still given out. Seems like one of those powerful attacks that aren't that fun even for the attacker, since it doesn't really help you much when you play it.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
So this is +2 Cards per action card, +1 Card for any other type of card. I wonder if this could be too powerful. In a deck with high action density, the draw is nearly as good as Madman. A couple of Junkyards could easily let you draw your deck. It is a very neat concept though, perhaps worth looking into further.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This could probably be costed lower? It's like Hermit, but non-terminal and potentially cantrip... oh, but I guess this can also trash Copper. Maybe $5 is right.
This looks OK. A nice non-terminal trasher like Junk Dealer or Upgrade that trades extra bonuses for having (potentially) much more search space.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copry of it (you get 2 copies total).
I like it for the theme. Spot on, very clever. Not sure of the actual gameplay value though. It's a weak $2 card that exists solely to gain Spoils, and it is made naturally swingy by making everyone gain it. It's swingy in that it is better to draw this later, so that you can get more Spoils.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
I don't understand how this is at all Ferret-like, or why "Ferret" was even chosen. Just because it's a Rat-ish animal? I think there are better options. ;)
So at the very least, this is a one-shot +$4. Sometimes it can give more. Or you can play it and NOT trash it in order to get more Ferrets.
I think this is generally better than Death Cart. If Death Cart trashes a Ruins, then you get +$5 over two cards. If Death Cart doesn't trash anything that it's +$5 from one card, but those Ruins might be a liability. This is just +$4 on one card, if you choose to use it. And of course, it could be up to +$8 if there's a Peddler in the Trash.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Needs an Iron name! I like it. Simple, not too boring.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Not a fan of this. This easily leads into Copper-junking, which is bad because the Copper stack doesn't scale with number of players. This card does not really do anything to mitigate that, other than slow trashing. Worse, this can be used to kill hands by top-decking multiple junk cards. This is why Sea Hag discards the top card before putting junk there.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
Probably just fine. The name doesn't really fit -- the card doesn't really encourage you to be miserly at all.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I suspect that this is very powerful. Cantrip trashing is strong. This is weakened by blindly trashing the top, but the danger is removed you can always gain a card back if you trahs something good. I don't like that it can gain ANY card from the trash without restriction. Donald X. talks about this in the Secret Histories:
In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't.
It has some nice self-synergy in that trashing another Charter makes this a Super-Lab.
I would suggest giving it the $3-$6 cost restriction on gaining cards from the trash. That introduces a weakness to this otherwise very powerful trasher, and it makes you think twice before playing it in the late game, much like Lookout.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
With Baron, you (usually) start off with 3 of the trigger cards. With this, you gain 2 when you by it... but the thing is, the other junk cards are still there. Baron has a nice use case of helping you reach big targets early in the game, when it's not too difficult to match it with one of your Estates. Robber Baron is far less effective because it only gives +$3, and it's also much more difficult to pair it up with Ruins. You only get two with you copy, and then there are still Estates (or Shelters) gumming up the works.
It's probably fine, but it feels a bit less exciting because it's just so similar to Baron, just with Ruins intead of Estates.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils.
Another simple card that is OK, but just not so interesting.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Don't know what to think of this one. It looks very powerful at first, giving you potentially a LOT of bonuses. I mean, just counting numbers alone, Grand Market only gives a total of +5. This gives up to +6. But then you realize that to get all those bonuses, you are gaining 3 Ruins. THREE! That's a heavy price to pay. And then there's the fact that this does less for you if the Ruins are all gone, which they will be very quickly as people play this card. And of course, it's unreliable. Reveal 3 Ruined Markets? Too bad.
Ah, but you don't have to gain the Ruins. And you can play Ruin salready in your hand. Even if the Ruins are all gone, KotS can still do something for you.
I like this. I think this would be very fun to play.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse, a Ruins, and a Spoils. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
The name is a bit weird. Why Astral?
The attack seems too powerful. Curse AND Ruins hurts even more than Mountebank, and it can't even be blocked. OK, they get a Spoils as well... which disappears after one use. Maybe if it gave Gold? But even then, it would be like you're giving them a really bad Cache. Just seems too strong.
I don't understand the restriction at the end. Why is the last player given this special protection? Umm... I guess it prevents AC from emptying the Curse and Ruins piles. OK, I do understand it. Kind of a clunky way to do it, but I guess there's no easy fix.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
I really, really like the reaction. It's a very neat concept and it adds some new strategic considerations to the game. The action, however, feels completely uninspired. For one thing, it is just really weak. It doesn't give you any extra value for trashing the card. It doesn't even give you the option of taking a card that costs less. I guess it top-decks, which is mildly useful for kicking back a card to another hand, but it's worse than Haven for this purpose. I guess it can let you empty piles more quickly? Maybe the intended purpose is to chop up Silvers into Spoils, but that requires two Smelters and a $3 card in hand. The action is just not interesting. The reaction is cool enough that I may still give it a vote though.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Gaining from the Trash is really weak unless there are good cards in the trash. This is why both Graverobber and Rogue have a way to put good cards into the trash -- Graverobber is an Expand and thus likes trashing expensive cards. Rogue is an attack that can trash others' cards. Junkyard does not do anything to solve the problem. Even if there are good cards, Junkyard is still not compelling because it is a one-shot. For $5, a one-shot deserves some power, like Pillage.
The other thing to note is that Junkyard is a Victory card. It counts VP in the trash though, which seems much, much worse than Silk Roads. In a 2p game, maybe you see 6 Estates in the trash, making Junkyard worth 2VP. Not great for $5. And that relies on another trasher being on the board, because Junkyard (being a one-shot) is just not a good Estate trasher. I guess Junkyard itself may end up in the trash... but you're unlikely to see more than one there. If the board has good support for Junkyard, then other people will just gain Junkyard back from the trash when they play their own Junkyard.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
The wording is really confusing.
"When you trash a card this turn" -- is that the first time you trash a card, or each time you trash a card? Is this meant to be a "while this is in play" effect? And then the effect at the end ("Trash a card from your hand or from play") -- is that part of the "when you trash" effect? If so, and if the effect is "for each", then this creates an infinite loop.
I think the intended wording is more like this:
Trash a card from your hand or from play.
While this is in play, when you trash a card, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
The card doesn't seem very focused in what it does, and maybe that's thematic for being an "Alehouse". Doesn't really work for me.
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Not fond of the name at all, but the action looks pretty good. Sort of like a mini-Torturer. Simple, effective.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
Upgrade, but it puts the card in hand instead of being a cantrip. Poor at trashing Copper and Shelters, but quite good at trashing Estates. If you Junkyard a Junkyard, you get an extra card costing $3, which is fine. Looks pretty good.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Apprentice/Salvager mix. It's weaker than Apprentice in that it it is terminal. It's weaker than Salvager in that it lacks +Buy. Looks OK to me. The reaction is probably not something you want to use most of the time, but it can be helpful in a pinch. Notably, two Heretics lets you trash an expensive card like a Colony and then save it. That's a trick you can't do with Apprentice or Salvager, where you would just get +5 Cards or +$4 for Apprenticing an Apprentice or Salvaging a Salvager. I like it.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Yes, Iron! As far as attacks go, this looks pretty good. Like Torturer, the junk card goes into the victim's hand. Interestingly, this can be a BAD thing, when it's usually good (because having the card in hand means you can trash it more easily). Gaining the junk to hand means that opponents still have 5 card hands, which means they are still affected by subsequent plays of Iron Maiden. This may encourage players to discard a Victory card after all. Then, you can discard Curse to the next Iron Maiden for no additional penalty, and you're left with fewer than 5 cards so any IMs after that don't touch you at all.
The on-trash effect is simple and niche but a nice potential bonus.
I like it.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
The name is a turn-off, as is the "Satan Pit". Just call it a mat.
This card gets stronger if players have few Treasures in hand. It therefore pushes opponents into playing BM, which is not so hot. And then it burns them by further junking them with Copper, which has problems that this card does not address. The Copper junking is actually anti-synergistic because it makes it more likely that opponents are able to block you next time.
In general the card is quite weak. Since you only start with 2 tokens, you're gaining at least 1 Copper/Estate, probably more. Unless your opponents do go for a trim engine, you're gonna be stuck gaining junk yourself. I suppose the good use case is in an engine mirror, trying to play a bunch of these in the mid-game to quickly gain lots of tokens so that you can gain good cards (maybe even Provinces). I don't see it working very well though, especially considering that the Copper junk goes into opponents' hands. Even if they start with no Treasure in hand, they'll start blocking you on the third play.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Simple card that is nice as a functional pure-Reaction. It can usually function as a Copper (sometimes it can't though, e.g. $7 in hand with no $7 card on the board, you can't use Bargain to bump yourself up to $8). It can also act as a defense against junkers. Most interestingly, it can combo with card gainers like Hermit and Altar.
I wonder about how on-theme it is... but I suppose that it's function is sort of upgrading other cards, and the reasonable $1 cost certainly gives it a Dark Ages feel. The theme fits pretty well too, as the Dark Ages seems like a time when you are tight with your budget and really are hunting for a bargain.
I like it.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Odd card. The attack is very weak and may be more helpful than hurtful, though it is still a Cutpurse effect. It does make sense in that Treasure needs to be in the trash in order to upgrade into Mercenary. Interestingly, it can also upgrade into Madman. I'm not sure what that means for strategy, but it is neat to have more ways to get Mercenary and Madman. On the other hand, it may make Hermit and Urchin feel less special.
The best thing about the card is the theme. A Soldier gets greedy from all the wealth he is seeing and turns into a Mercenary. A Soldier loses his friends and goes mad with grief. Very nice.
I worry that the card is too wordy. Presumably this is why it doesn't say "Choose one".
I like this. The card name is a little boring, but necessary for the flavour.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
"Play a copy of" is strange wording. I assume that it means you get the bonus of that Ruins, but it stays in the pile.
This card is a little scary. Ruined Village is on top... suddenly every action is non-terminal. Ruined Library, now the village idiot has activated Cities. Similar story with Ruined Mine. Ruined Market is generally the worst one. Survivors is just super slow to go through.
It is an interesting idea though. I'm not sure what to make of it.
Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
If you never use your Spoils, each Stronghold adds 4 dead cards to your deck. IIRC there are 15 Spoils total, so it can be worth up to 7VP. Seems like you'd stall pretty quickly if you tried to make Stronghold worth anything significant. This seems like it would be better used just for some quick cash injection, and then the Stronghold can be fodder for TfB. The VP might be nice near the end of the game if you can quickly gain 2 or more Strongholds, making each Stronghold a Duchy or better. It does other interesting things to end game Duchy dancing, in that you can grab Strongholds for potential VP as well as adding economy to your deck to give you a better chance of grabbing that last Province.
I really like this. There is a surprising amount of strategy packed into a very simple card.
I don't like the card name so much -- it is similar to Fortress, which this card is nothing like. Another submission is named Miser, which I think suits this card quite a bit. Two other ideas are Coffers and Mausoleum.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
The action seems alright.
The reaction is terrible. It's an idea that is quite common among fan cards, but it fails to consider games with more than 2 players. If I trash a card and the other 3 players all reveal Garrison, who gets it? I suppose you can FAQ it to resolve clockwise or something. But there is a bigger issue -- it combos too powerfully with trashing attacks, particularly unrestricted attacks outside of DA like Swindler and Saboteur. These will trash Provinces and Colonies, and then you can Garrison to gain them. That's just too good.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Do you play both actions before trashing them together, or do you play one and trash it, then play the second and trash it? This matters for subsequent Raids. I feel like this can get extremely confusing -- Raid is letting you play any number of other actions, and then it may be trashing them or not depending on whether you played them from hand or from the trash. I can see tracking issues quickly piling up, especially if you are using Raid to play other Raids and chains are stacking down.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Estate into two Silver, Duchy into two Gold. Province potentially into two Platinum. That's pretty good, but not unreasonable (Trader also gets you two Silver for Estate). I don't see why it can't be "up to $1 more", so that it works a bit better with Feodum and some alt VPs and Treasures. Maybe even "up to $2 more".
The reaction is essentially giving you two Silver, but this particular mechanic matters in lots of little ways that add up, e.g. timing means that piles can drain before your next turn, and sometimes you may prefer to keep the Estate.
Overall, I quite like it. The name makes sense too, as in a Surveyor finding the value of a piece of land (Victory card). Although sometimes the Surveyor prefers to check out the Dukes instead.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +1 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
Simple, looks OK.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand
A Condottiero is a Mercenary Warlord. OK, cool.
The attack is interesting. It's a Looter, but it has this extra effect of letting everyone discard a Treasure if they want to Chancellor. This rewards skilled deck tracking. Aside from increased cycling, opponents also benefit from this by delaying the Ruins -- now the Ruins from your Condottiero will be in the discard for a full shuffle. The on-trash seems unnecessary but it doesn't hurt and it's a nice little bonus. I like this.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Mob is a terrible attack because you also gain a Ruins. And then you have to buy another Ruins to upgrade to Mob Boss? I guess this is OK because then the Mob Boss gives you benefits for those Ruins, and even lets you return them to the Supply.
Overall this seems OK, but I'm not fond of Curse-for-benefit, and Ruins-for-benefit is just a small step up from that.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Very simple Looter Silver. This is probably too strong though. My concern about Treasure-Attacks is that they are so easy to spam because they don't use up any actions. I believe that a Treasure Attack will need to be relatively weak to make up for that. I think giving out Ruins is still too strong for a Treasure.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
This is very weird. In many games, Danse Macabre (nice name) is just a way to get a $3 and a $2, which is actually pretty terrible. You need a gainer in order to actually get DM into your deck (this includes Graverobber, as well as cards like Saboteur or Swindler). I guess you can also use Band of Misfits as DM. Once you have it, it gives extremely strong non-terminal draw but you have to use up another action card. It is a little odd that you "play" the action card for no effect rather than just discarding it, but it matters in a few cases like Conspirator and HoP, and especially in cases where you are over-drawing your deck (especially likely with DM's powerful draw). An FAQ should clarify if "none of its effects" includes "while this is in play" clauses. Presumably it does, and hopefully it wouldn't get too confusing to track.
I find it quite interesting that the card can be so different on different boards. No gainers and this is far less likely to factor into your strategy. Gainers, suddenly you have to really consider if you can build a deck that DM fits into (the extra action card requirement is not trivial).
I expect that the on-trash should be tweaked to be more powerful. I like this.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Why is a Garderobe giving you Ruins?
I wonder about the $2 cost. Non-terminal +$2 means it's a Silver. It also lets you play a cheap action, so it's almost a Festival. No +Buy and a cost restriction on the first action, but it's close to it. Does the restriction and the Ruins gain really knock it down to $2? Not sure.
So you can play the Ruins that you gain. Sometimes that makes this a Gold, sometimes an almost-GM, sometimes an almost-Festival (just missing the +Buy). Filtering and +Buy are OK too. I really wonder about the cost. OK you junk yourself, but Ruins aren't that bad when you have surplus actions to play them, and Garderobe helps you do that.
It's fairly interesting though. Definitely worth more consideration.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Don't like the name.
The action... OK, it's a Peddler. It can get become an activated City by gaining Ruins. And you lose a lot of VP if you overdose. -3VP sounds scary enough that I bet that this usually only gets used as a Peddler, never gaining any Ruins at all. The thing is, if you gain even one Ruin, suddenly you're down 3VP. Worse if you have more than one copy of Drug in your deck. Other players should just let you flounder with that deficit.
Maybe sometimes it gets used when there are other Looters or Amb or Masq on the board, where you can send Ruins to your opponents to try not to end up with the most. Oh, I guess it also gets used in games where you can trash away your Ruins afterwards. And I suppose a player could also go all-in and try to use the bonuses for enough of a boost that the VP deficit doesn't matter.
Eh, it looks fairly interesting but it just doesn't do it for me. Not sure why... might just be the negative VP on a Victory card.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
This looks way too strong. It's a $4 Lab that chews up junk. The trashing probably makes it BETTER than Lab most of the time. OK, you probably don't want a bunch of these, but you almost always want one. If in the end you run out of fodder and the Sweeper is a dead card... well, it did its job and your deck should be awesomely trim.
At $5 I think it still compares favourably to Lab, though maybe it works there. Probably not so good at $6, since you want your trashing earlier. I don't know. It looks too strong and, despite being a simple card, I think it would be difficult to tweak it to a balanced state.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
The name doesn't really fit, but that's not a big deal.
It's a fairly weak attack, but multiple BFs let you deal with the Ruins you get. I don't see why this card lets you reveal up to 3 of any type of card -- you can certainly word that more succinctly.
Seems OK. Playing then trashing 3 actions seems to beg for tracking issues though.
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
It's another super-Thief. Like Thief, Barrister can steal any Treasure, including Platinum. Unlike Thief, it doesn't help opponents clear out Copper. As an extra bonus, you can gain any Treasure from the trash, not just what the opponent revealed. There is a funny little mini-game with Barrister where you try to get two Claims in order to turn one into a Gold, but it's probably too much effort and opportunity cost for too little gain. I would usually prefer not to move junk from my opponents' deck to my own.
Oh, and it lets you trash one of your own cards too? Wow. I think that makes it way too strong.
Not a fan of the mechanics (super Thief with no downside) but I have to give a shout out for the name. Hilarious. If you remind me when the ballot closes, I will +1.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Another card that likes Ruins. I find this one fairly interesting, especially for the potential extra card. Worth more consideration.
-
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
Sure, you'd be able to reveal it for each card. But aside for the card which lands on top, you wouldn't be able to move any to your deck or the trash since they will be covered up.
So if I discard multiple tunnels at the same time, I can only reveal one?
Of course not. That's multiple Reaction cards reacting to the same event; if you discard one card and have multiple Patrols in hand you could reveal all of them too (although after the first one the others would have nothing to do, by lose-track, I think?).
Also, I'd like to know where the rules state anything about simultaneous gains being handled differently than simultaneous discards.
Good question. I'll look for it.
-
So, I've noticed a lot of the cards here are pulling a Catacombs by having an extra on trash effect. Sometimes they work together with the rest of the card, and other times they just seem random. Either way, they often don't add too much to the overall function of the card. Also a lot of RtB cards (Ruins for Benefit). It's getting harder and harder to pick favourites.
My comments on roughly the first half of the list.
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
The +1 Action addition seems good here. a sort of Treasure/VP card leapfrog thing here, worth extra points if this and 3 other types of VP cards are in the trash. I wouldn't count on that happening in a game where this is the only kingdom
VP card. Even so, it's not bad.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
There's a weakness with this mechanic. Your opponents can take advantage of your hard efforts to trash your action cards to boost these up by simply buying them. It's not like Duke, where you can gain an advantage by winning the Duchy split. This is just a communal super-Duchy stack that you ideally want your opponents to power up, like with Forager.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This can only trash 1 card at a time? That's a bit disappointing. I though this was like a super Chapel when you lined up 2 of these. Still, the on play is nice, though I have no comments on the balance.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Tracking issues aside, I don't know. The on-trash effect only seems useful as a defense to trashers (similar to Catacombs' on-trash generally). I'd rather get a Fortress so as to keep my valuable village.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Procession-golem. In theory, it could work. You get a nice bonus for hitting another Tribal Man with it.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Tresaure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Disciple's on-play is weak but not terrible. You're really looking to collide them for a Savior, whose power is probably stronger than Madman's. So having this be weaker than Hermit is good. Madman fans should like this. Treasure Map haters probably won't. I'm neither of those, I don't think.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Seems really strong, actually. Maybe it should cost $5, like an alternate Band of Misfits?
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Cards that Trash a card in-play can be risky design-wise with Fortress, but Fortress/Brick is certainly not broken. Kinda like a non-terminal half-Remake.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
First Brick, not Bricklayer *chuckle*. Has its laser-sight on Ruins. Still feels like a Cornucopia Chapel or something.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
This blocks itself, potentially making slogs even sloggier. This can possibly be tweaked to lessen the "terminal Tournament" issue.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
This is neat. It encourages you to trash better cards (such as a DA card with a good on-trash effect), and can be better than Salvager if you do so. It's $5 cost properly reflects it's strength. It's on-trash effect is cute, but not necessary.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Why does this have that on-gain effect? Barring Rogue and Graverobber, it basically lets players buy $6 cost cards like Goons and Grand Market for $5. Also, this is what Rogue and Knights were actively trying not to be: A card that lets you trash-attack your opponents constantly. This doesn't get trashed when it trashes another player's Necromancy, either. In an engine, this has the potential to be even deadlier than a Saboteur engine, except this doesn't even suck most of the time.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Discarding a card to make this non-terminal is a small price to pay for such a powerful attack. That is, if you're first player. All it needs is a larger hand size limit, say 4.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is a super Cellar with Ruins in hand, and can trash itself for an even bigger boost. Well costed at $5, meaning you choose this over Cultist in order to defend against it. Good without other looters too, letting you gain a Ruins to see your handsize decrease. Interesting.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Gives the Rats on-trash effect to all cards costing $2 or more. When this is the only trasher, if you're not trashing cards from the discard pile frequently, then this is going to be weaker than Junk Dealer and Apprentice. Surely this can be much more in the context of Dark Ages heavy games, where you often see more expensive cards getting trashed. Also
seems good for triggering the on-trash effects of other cards.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copry of it (you get 2 copies total).
Woh-woh-Woah! Admittedly messy for 5+ player games, but otherwise this looks like a fun little experiment that I'd be interested to see the results of. "Junking" players with spoils doesn't seem like something that seriously discourages engines either.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
Suicidal Salvagers that multiply like rats (and maybe like Rats, too). Not sure what to think here.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
It's best move is trashing estates. It can also ruins-retaliate. Doesn't seem that OP to me actually. The Spoils gaining adds a nice touch, too.
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General note -- lots of these cards that gain non-Supply cards needs to mention the pile, e.g. "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile" rather than "gain a Spoils".
Check the text on Bandit Camp, Marauder, and Pillage; they all say "Gain a Spoils".
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General note -- lots of these cards that gain non-Supply cards needs to mention the pile, e.g. "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile" rather than "gain a Spoils".
Check the text on Bandit Camp, Marauder, and Pillage; they all say "Gain a Spoils".
No, they don't. They all say "Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile." I will update the ballot.
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Model Village
I don't get the name.
Village with on-trash Remodel.
Village with on-trash Remodel.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/115/411/LargeThumbnail.jpg)
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General note -- lots of these cards that gain non-Supply cards needs to mention the pile, e.g. "gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile" rather than "gain a Spoils".
Check the text on Bandit Camp, Marauder, and Pillage; they all say "Gain a Spoils".
No, they don't. They all say "Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile." I will update the ballot.
Huh, you're right. I was going by the text on the dominionstrategy card list, but I guess some of them aren't accurate. I assumed that you had made them all "gain a Spoils" for consistency.
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Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Any chance we could get a ruling on how the first option works with Possession? My interpretation would be:
Possessed player would gain an action or treasure card from the trash, but they're Possessed, so the Possessing player gains it, putting it in their discard pile; Possessed player tries to play the card, but it's been "lost track of", so the effects happen but the cards is not put into play; at the end of the turn the card is still "lost track of" so it's not trashed.
I guess the question is, does another player's discard pile count as "lost track of"? I would assume so.
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Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Any chance we could get a ruling on how the first option works with Possession? My interpretation would be:
Possessed player would gain an action or treasure card from the trash, but they're Possessed, so the Possessing player gains it, putting it in their discard pile; Possessed player tries to play the card, but it's been "lost track of", so the effects happen but the cards is not put into play; at the end of the turn the card is still "lost track of" so it's not trashed.
I would have thought so, but Blue Dog effects worry me.
I guess the question is, does another player's discard pile count as "lost track of"? I would assume so.
Sure; the card's been moved someplace unexpected, which is all that matters.
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http://youtu.be/xo1PMt4ILiU
It's another one of these! 2 less hours for everyone today LOLZ!
But seriously, enjoy, go find your card, watch the hastily edited ending, etc.
Huh, you're right. I was going by the text on the dominionstrategy card list, but I guess some of them aren't accurate. I assumed that you had made them all "gain a Spoils" for consistency.
The great thing about Wikis is that anyone can fix such errors, which I've done so. Only Pillage appeared to be incorrect actually.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
If you gain 3 silvers from trashing a card with Trader, you can reveal watchtower for every silver on its own. How is this different?
Drawing and gaining happen in series. Discarding and trashing happen all at once.
That being said, I think you'd be able to reveal it for each discarded card.
Sure, you'd be able to reveal it for each card. But aside for the card which lands on top, you wouldn't be able to move any to your deck or the trash since they will be covered up.
So if I discard multiple tunnels at the same time, I can only reveal one?
Of course not. That's multiple Reaction cards reacting to the same event; if you discard one card and have multiple Patrols in hand you could reveal all of them too (although after the first one the others would have nothing to do, by lose-track, I think?).
Also, I'd like to know where the rules state anything about simultaneous gains being handled differently than simultaneous discards.
Good question. I'll look for it.
But if your interpretation were true, one would lose track of most of the tunnels as well, and therefore not be able to reveal them.
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The lose track rule only applies to moving cards. So you can reveal them (formally, at least) despite having lost track of them. Yes, there's an accountability issue. You just have to trust your opponent. In practice, you will reveal Tunnels while discarding them.
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Also, I'd like to know where the rules state anything about simultaneous gains being handled differently than simultaneous discards.
Good question. I'll look for it.
Okay, so the Prosperity rules say that if you gain multiple cards, you can Watchtower each of them individually. I claim that this entails that "simultaneous" gains are actually sequential, for the following reason. Suppose you gain two cards simultaneously. Then you can't reveal Watchtower until they've both entered your discard pile. In that case, once you reveal Watchtower, the non-top gained cards have been lost track of, and can't be moved by Watchtower. Since we know that they can be moved, that entails that they were gained one at a time.
The basic Dominion rules say that if you discard multiple cards, you don't need to show them to your opponents except the one that ends up on top. The rules also say that the top card of your discard pile is always visible. This entails that your discarded cards hit the discard pile simultaneously, as follows: if not, then they would hit the discard pile one at a time, and each one would be the top card of the discard pile until the next one landed, and therefore be visible to all players. Since we know that they're not, that means the discard must have taken place simultaneously. (This has consequences for card interactions such as: if you are hit by a Minion attack and have Tunnel and Watchtower in hand, you can't discard the Tunnel first, reveal the Watchtower to top-deck the Gold, and then discard the Watchtower.)
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Huh, you're right. I was going by the text on the dominionstrategy card list, but I guess some of them aren't accurate. I assumed that you had made them all "gain a Spoils" for consistency.
The great thing about Wikis is that anyone can fix such errors, which I've done so. Only Pillage appeared to be incorrect actually.
I was actually talking about this list http://dominionstrategy.com/all-cards/ (http://dominionstrategy.com/all-cards/) which is usually what I use when I need to look up a card quickly. The wiki is probably better but I guess I'm just used to using that one. All three cards have it wrong there.
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Oh, right, yeah. Interesting. Well, might as well let theory know.
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http://youtu.be/xo1PMt4ILiU
It's another one of these! 2 less hours for everyone today LOLZ!
Tables, what part of the UK are you from? (After the fun with American English in the dialect thread, figured I'd ask...)
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http://youtu.be/xo1PMt4ILiU
It's another one of these! 2 less hours for everyone today LOLZ!
Tables, what part of the UK are you from? (After the fun with American English in the dialect thread, figured I'd ask...)
If your referring to the LOLZ comment, I assure you it's ironic :P. But the answer to this is already on the site... (and it's not in a particularly hard to find place)
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Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This could be crazy when stacked. I think this is a very DA card, I like it a lot.
Ooh, good point about the stacking. That makes me like it more.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
This compares too favorably to Explorer. The only advantage Explorer has (barring a few edge cases) is that it can gain Gold later on, but it costs an extra $1 and doesn't have the Spoils option. I like the name though and the effect is interesting, it would just need to be adjusted.
Nice catch about Explorer. I usually remember Explorer, but this time I did not.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
I don't like this as much as Incindiarist because the combined Cursing and Looting on one card is not, in this case, filtered by something you want to do. Once one of the piles runs out, you can choose what card type to discard based on which pile is out, but until then, the hardest option is the action discarding, and you get a Copper for that. It is interesting though, the decision between discarding Treasure for Ruins or Victory card for Curse is nice, but I think having one card hand out both Ruins and Curses without a good filter is not good.
Excellent note on handing out both Curses and Ruins without filter.
The thought did occur to me. But it is legal...
Edit: Although we could just assume we aren't considering 6 player games, which I'm fine with. I was mostly just wondering if anyone could come up with an elegant way to avoid the problem.
Ballot updates:
As some of you may have guessed, Smelter (B) is supposed to give "+2 Cards" when you trash a Victory card, not "+1 Cards".
Barrister has a new clarification: in games with 6 players, the first player doesn't get a Claim.
Smelter update doesn't change my opinion. Barrister clarification is inelegant, but I already didn't like the mechanics of it.
Model Village
I don't get the name.
Village with on-trash Remodel.
Village with on-trash Remodel.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/115/411/LargeThumbnail.jpg)
Doh!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIUNu_1BqP0&feature=youtu.be
More thoughts will be coming, but more focused on the few specific ones I think are interesting and/or misevaluated.
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I've added a clarification for Brick at the author's request.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
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Second verse, same as the first.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Awkwardly worded. Otherwise, it trashes a card, and then adds a forced cellar effect and optionally gives you a card costing less than the card you trashed. Combos with other trashers. My first thought is: isn't a deck with heavy trashing precisely the sort that needs a cellar effect least? But I suppose you don't have to play it. It just seems uninspiring then (a handsize-decreasing, non-terminal trasher with a bit of filtering).
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Not really a fan of the name, especially since it's more like Taxman than Noble Brigand. Simultaneously junks decks while eliminating treasure seems like a dangerous combination; in a mirror match you could easily end up with decks not able to buy anything other than more Copper.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
Didn't we have a non-terminal version of this earlier? Anyway, this seems fine if a bit dull; putting cards in your hand is less exciting on a terminal, but turning Estates into Silvers in-hand is nice.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
An Apprentice/Salvager mash-up, only less powerful than either card individually (but compensating with flexibility). The reaction seems somewhat tacked on, as you'll rarely want to trash a $5 card that way, but could be used to squeeze a little extra money out of a Province on the last turn (if you had actions left you'd probably save the second Heretic to use an action).
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Like the name, it's a combination of Iron(works/monger) and Torturer (or at least a mythical torture device), which fits the card. As for the card itself, I've previously expressed my concern about multiple type junkers. This is a particularly brutal attack (compare with Followers; this also junks and discards, but makes the discard painful in inverse proportion to the pain of the junking). Either way, this seems too powerful.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
Not a fan of the name (or the names of the tokens/mats). Doesn't really seem to fit with Dominion, especially with the Santa pun. But as I've said before, names are easily tweaked.
The attack itself is fairly weak, and scales oddly with player number(both because Copper runs out at different rates, and because in larger games you will have more players to have better odds of revealing low-treasure hands, and because previous players may have "primed" the pump by playing copies of this, filling up other people's hands). Actually, that's a concern right there; because you are more likely to be able to gain bigger cards if other people haven't played this card this turn, it becomes political.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
A Copper that also works on gainers. Appropriately priced, but not particularly interesting.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
As others have said, kudos for theme. Not sure I like alternate paths to Madman/Mercenary though, especially since those two cards are somewhat contradictory (Mercenary yields small handsizes for everyone, Madman likes big handsizes to kick off).
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
As others have said, this is crazy strong and swingy. If Ruined Library is on top, each of my cantrips becomes a Lab, and each of my nonterminals becomes a cantrip. My villages become activated cities. If Ruined Village is on top, each of my terminals, is now a nonterminal. If Ruined Mine is on top, Pearl Diver is better than a Peddler. If Ruined Market is on top, I cry, knowing that my opponent will be laughing. If Survivors is on top, I look "forward" to an insanely long turn. That's way too swingy, especially since this card is nonterminal, so not only does it stack, but it already provides a cantrip to trigger most of these effects. Pretty sure the optimum strategy for a game with this is to buy as many as you can and pray that the Ruins pile favors you. It also has potential tracking issues (if you play several and trash some ruins).
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
This costs too much, and adds a bunch of dead cards to your deck if you want to treat it as a VP source. If you just want to get a ton of Spoils? Would Gold (same price) really be that bad instead? It gives you less money at once, but stays around longer, and clogs your deck less.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
I'm now having pictures of one card bouncing around from person to person, giving spoils to everyone without ever being played. But on to the card itself. I like that it tries to give a way to encourage you to trash more expensive cards, so that you are encouraged to actually use the reaction. I'm less certain this is the best way to do so, however. It's fine for trashing estates (although note that a delayed one-shot $3 is not that different from the $2 you'd get for Salvager; in fact this card as a whole is somewhat reminiscent of a delayed Salvager), but how many expensive cards are you really going to want to trash for Spoils? Especially if you know your opponent could steal them from you?
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
I like the idea of a "cannibal village" as someone said earlier, but I'm not sure this is the best way to go about it. It clearly wants to interact with Ruins, but then has the issue that the only way to get Ruins (other than other Looters) is to trash this card, which is probably too slow for a marginal benefit.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Not a fan of the bottom half (gratuitous messing with the PPR, although I appreciate that it's worded so at least you can't have someone buy the last Province, thinking that they've won, only to reveal this card; so kudos for avoiding that problem). Most of the time, the top-half will be used as a Trader for Estates, but it's non-terminal, and puts one on top. Seems ok, but not stunning.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
So, comparing with Moneylender, you get 1 less money for trashing Copper, but can also trash Estates for +2 Cards instead. That's probably better than Moneylender, and almost certainly on-par. The reaction seems extremely situational, but that's ok.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
The on-trash seems somewhat gratuitous. The on-play effect itself is interesting (a fairly strong benefit on a junker, but they can delay the effects of the junk for a shuffle, at the cost of discarding a treasure), but I'd probably bump it up to $5, even without the on-trash.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
So, gaining a ruins in hand for everyone is a fairly weak attack, but still an attack. The upgrade to Mob Boss seems to run into the Crossroads problem; if you have enough Ruins to get a decent bonus, you likely have so many Ruins that many of the drawn cards are also going to be Ruins. The last clause on Mob Boss runs into tracking problems; since you can't look at the Ruins Pile beyond the top card, you have no way of going back and saying "wait, how many actions do I have left" if you forgot. I believe a similar problem is discussed in the Secret Histories.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Junking on a Treasure-Attack seems too strong. I buy this whenever I have $5, and don't have to worry about drawing it dead, ever. Meanwhile, I'm hitting you with a nasty attack.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Cool name. Don't like the fact that without a Workshop variant (and note that we didn't select any of the zillion Workshop variants submitted to the last contest, not even my card :-[) or some other gainer, this will be just "pay $4, get a $3 and a $2". Also don't like the fact that with a Workshop, this becomes a hideously broken super-Lab.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
So, a Garderobe that gives you Ruins. Someone has too much fiber in their diet! (I'm always this classy). Now lets look at what each of the Ruins will do in this set-up: Library==> super Peddler, Market==>weaker Festival, Mine==>Gold, Village==>Village that drew a Silver, Survivors==>Spy that drew a Silver (roughly). Each of these effects come at the cost of junking your deck in the future. OK, I guess?
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Don't like this card. It will probably never be more than a Peddler, if only because losing the Ruins split, even by one is so devastating (each Drug you have then becomes worth a Duchy...to your opponents, and they didn't even have to do anything to get, other than not do Drugs).
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
The top is arguably stronger than Lab (it can't build up a bigger hand size like Lab can, but it will clean your deck insanely fast). The bottom seems meh (how often are you going to be in a situation where you will trash this card? even if you do decide to do so, you're presumably in good shape to trash the Ruins, or at least have a trim enough deck to ignore it).
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Probably my favorite of the "helpful ruins" cards, if only for the "cannibal village" aspect. Note that this card will eventually run out of ammunition for Ruins, but still has the cannibal village functionality. And of course, it remains a strong trasher regardless.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
EDIT: Added "+2 Cards." to Barrister.
I like that my silly rules-lawyering helped change this card. Also like that the change helps counter 1st player advantage. But you can't fool me, this is a Thief in Barrister's clothing, and I don't think the crazy mucking around with Claims makes a Thief sufficiently interesting to put in this set. Still, kudos for the effort.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
[/quote]
Once again, this has the Crossroads problem. It's less severe in this case, because Mendicant gives you a ton of actions to play Ruins specifically; but that just means you'll want to get a ton of Mendicants, and they are cheap enough that both Abandoned Mines and Ruined Markets make that fairly doable. If Ruins become Cantrips (which these effectively do), they actually give you fairly nice bonuses, as I mentioned before (Peddlers, Market Squares, Labs, and pseudo-Spies). This card may make Ruins too nice.
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Approximately 115 minutes of content for me to trim down for my thoughts on these cards...
Maybe it was just me, but I felt like these cards were of somewhat lower quality overall than the first two contests. Many more cards just struck me as duds and the like, and fewer jumped out as really cool ideas. No offence to everyone intended, maybe it's just Dark Ages is harder to make cards for.
I think its this. I know I had a much harder time coming up with a cool idea this round.
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So, ruins for benefit. This seems to be the theme everyone wants to try this week, and it's just not good. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since it has more inherent pull than good curse cards, and those are VERY popular to design.
My problem with these, in general, is that they're basically impossible to balance. Now, they actually aren't totally so, and Death Cart sorta showed us this space a little. But making them HAVE to be ruins does not do you favors here.
Anyway, the essential problem is that junk is so bad, that you have to do quite a lot to make you actually want it. And by the time you get there to where it's reasonable, you've made a card which is going to be terribroken or very close. And to make one where it's actually like GOOD, it's just going to be broken very often.
So let's look at a couple of the examples (ones which I feel it's easiest for me to make my points on - not necessarily the worst designs) and see how they're generally just quite weak.
King of the Slums:
This is the one that can gain and King a ruins, throne another, play a third (actually gain up to 3; any of the top 3 you want).
If you are just getting one of them, it's basically a smithy or terminal gold for 5 which makes you gain a ruins. Well, smithy or terminal gold isn't so bad for 5 (but not great), but having to gain a ruins is a big downside. Ok, so you can play another thing twice. Well, I mean, for one play of course, this is worth it, and pretty good, but very long, and it's not going to be good at all. If you are playing 2 ruins already in your hand... You've spent 3 cards and are getting... let's say you treble the library and double a mine. You end up with 5 cards in hand and $2. That's not the worst thing ever, but it's not great... and you had to take ruins and get lucky enough for your collision. On top of all this, you are assuming you are getting good ruins here; sometimes you just get lots of survivors and ruined markets......
Robber Baron:
This is the one that you either gain a ruins or discard one for +$3 and they discard to 3.
If this hits, you have spent 2 cards for a militia +$1. IF IT HITS! Plus you have to take all kinds of junk to make that happen...
So now I want to talk for a moment about Archaeologist. That's the one which cantrips, when you play it can trash the top ruins, gives top ruins's benefit whenever you play another action.
First, it isn't in the same class as the others - you aren't using ruins in your deck positively, you are using them tangentially. I like this much more, and find it much more interesting design space.
Now, obviously, as is, it's just brokenz. But let's say we switch it to getting that ruins effect ONCE. Obviously, we need to re-balance the price out somehow (cost 4?), because it's not so strong now, but that can be done. And then I think it's quite interesting.
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So now I want to talk for a moment about Archaeologist. That's the one which cantrips, when you play it can trash the top ruins, gives top ruins's benefit whenever you play another action.
First, it isn't in the same class as the others - you aren't using ruins in your deck positively, you are using them tangentially. I like this much more, and find it much more interesting design space.
Now, obviously, as is, it's just brokenz. But let's say we switch it to getting that ruins effect ONCE. Obviously, we need to re-balance the price out somehow (cost 4?), because it's not so strong now, but that can be done. And then I think it's quite interesting.
This is more-or-less Hatter, one of the Outtakes; Donald's version had you play the top Ruins and move it to the bottom of the pile. That was cut because of tracking problems; for this version, at least the last copy you play doesn't have that problem, so it might be easier to use.
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Correction to the beginning of your video, WanderingWinder: 5 copies of a supplementary card means we have room for one Victory card in the set, not zero. I'm listening to the rest of it now and am going to try to post my reactions after that.
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Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
An Estate that transfers Victories to Treasures and vice versa. The victory part is almost pointless, most of the time someone's gonna have to trash a province, and who's gonna do that? Top seems interesting.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
An interesting alt VP. Probably balanced, except maybe with ruins it gets crazy.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
I really like self-synergy cards. And I like this one.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Just complicated enough for a Dark Ages card. I quite like it, but I feel like the bottom half is just a more powerful Catacombs.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
This looks really OP. "Why yes, I think I will grab that platinum back." And I think the two-copies trashing thing is more of TM's niche.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
Ooh, trash this to gain a Gold and a Copper? Self-synergy, and I like it.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Seems interesting, but swingy. Of course, what happens if two players reveal this from their hands? Is it a race to reveal it first, or is there a player order resolve thing, or what?
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
This has tracking issues, but looks interesting.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This looks like a really simple, but cool and DA-esque card. Really like it.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Don't really like curses and ruins on the same card. Looks OP too.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
This is an interesting attack. I think it would be better with the Sea Hag fix (discard the top card of deck, then gain to deck) because it could kill your next hand.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
Looks like Explorer, and is a bit boring.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
this is a much less swingy version of the Trash-from-deck. In fact, I really like it. It may have to cost $5 though...
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
I would never buy this because it junks yourself too much.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Like altar, a set TFB. I like it.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Again, I don't like a curse/ruins combined giver.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Top is lame and almost useless, bottom is cool, especially with trader.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Worded weird, I like the below-the-line fix. Also, I think it may be too powerful with three. Yes sir, I think I will open with two of these.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Top part is combined salvager/apprentice, that's cool, but I don't think I'd ever use the reaction except maybe to a trashed province from sabotuer... Oh now I see! You can use one of these to trash a province for cards or money, then gain it right back with another! I like it!
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Seems reasonable for a $1 card.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
I like the theme, but don't know if it's super balanced or what not.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I like this concept, and with a little tweaking it could work really well.
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Weak.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
This looks interesting.
Thjat's it for now.
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For once, I decided to critique all the cards, although most of my blurbs are very brief. There are just so many cards!
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
The "if you trash this type, do this; if you trash this type, do this" is kind of kludgy for my taste. Also, I think the Victory portion doesn't grab me. Overall, it seems like the card tries to do too much.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
The Victory card based on a shared resource has been tried and wasn't a big hit. The on-gain effect is cute, and I think this is probably a decent implementation of the concept, but I still think the concept itself is flawed.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
The Reaction is confusing rules-wise. Even once a ruling is made, it's not really obvious just from the card how it's meant to resolve. I think the top part is probably decent. I wouldn't mind seeing that by itself or on another Reaction.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Too close to Fortress for my taste. I think it's probably balanced, though.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
This is too kludgy for me. Too many clauses.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
I really like the way you get Saviors from Disciples. It actually just hit me that because you need 2 Disciples to get a Savior, it makes sense for there to only be 5 Saviors in the pile. Well done, sir! As for the cards themselves, I'm more leery. The whole "put whichever card you want into your hand" is just too much instant gratification for my taste. It's reasonable on Disciple because you can't put your deck into your discard pile. I think I'll vote for this, but I'd like it better if Savior didn't allow you to discard your deck and didn't have the option to King's Court an Action.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Too crazy, I'm almost certain. For instance, you can just run out the Renovate pile if you have a Renovate and Fortress in hand.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
It's hard for me to envision how this would play. At first I didn't like it, but the more I think about it, the more I think it's a good card. I'm not sure it needs the on-trash benefit.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
I like this. Simple and elegant. The differently-named cards clause keeps it from being a super-Chapel. It's probably not great in full random games, but probably much better in a game with a few more Dark Ages cards. Very good at getting rid of Ruins and nice for activating on-trash abilities.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
The (usually) blind trashing is certainly unique, but I'm not a fan. I also don't like the Reaction, which doesn't have a great trigger (since you're not already doing something just because some other player trashed a card), and is too much of an attack.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
The action part cribs a bit too much from Salvager, although that's not necessarily a dealbreaker. I really don't like the on-trash effect, though. +1 Action isn't a great on-trash effect because it only makes sense on your own turn, and I'm not a fan of a tacked-on clause to fix that.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
This tries to do too much. The on-gain effect pretty much just creates AP and does nothing else.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
I think I might like this if it didn't have the option to discard a card for +1 Action. It's a really harsh attack, though. Especially since the Ruins in hand means you can be hit by it again. Even without that, it's a very powerful attack.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I think this is a bit kludgy. I'd have a hard time remembering what all it does without reading it each time.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
I think I'd like this if the bottom half worked when you trashed any card.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
I don't like the fact that the pile runs out so very fast. The idea behind it is interesting, but I'm afraid it would lead to too much of a waiting game as nobody wants to play them first.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
I like how creative the effects are, but I'm afraid it's going to mostly just be a one-shot +$4. Maybe that's not so bad, but it's not my favorite.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I agree with Donald that Dark Ages doesn't really need a card that gives Curses. Once you run out Ruins and Curses, the game's pretty much over.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Dark Ages might be the worst place for this card because if you choose a copy of the top Ruins of the pile, probably only the player to your left will be attacked.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
In general, I dislike "Choose two" cards. However, I think I like this one. However, I think I'd like to see a fourth option and maybe a cost bump to $5.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I get that you have the option to gain back the card you just (blindly) trashed. I actually have a somewhat-similar blind trasher in my own set. I'm not a huge fan of this one, though.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
A Death Cart/Baron/Militia combo. It seems like it could be balanced, but it just seems too derivative to me.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Seems OK-ish, but I feel like Dark Ages has enough thinning cards (Forager, Junk Dealer, Altar).
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Neat idea. I'd rather see something it made a bit more elegant. Maybe if you could only gain one Ruins per play and the end clause was something like, "Do this any number of times: Play a Ruins from your hand twice."
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause the last player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Not a fan of a card that gives out both Curses and Ruins. The "fix" that keeps piles from running out too fast seems kludgy and ineffective because you can just buy the last Ruins/Curse to end the game.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
This has a sort of infinite loop issue with Trader. Not a big deal in real life play, I guess. The Action seems too weak at any cost.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Again, not a huge fan of Victory cards that use shared resources.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: #3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Too kludgy for my taste.
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
It's a mini-Torturer that thins Copper from your deck. Too similar to Torturer for my taste.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
On-trash penalties aren't a good idea. Mostly they do nothing except make you not want them when there are trashing Attacks on the board.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
The Reaction is super weak and I feel like the Action is too close to Salvager/Apprentice.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Again, not a big fan of cards that give both Curses and Ruins.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
This card is a wordy mess and requires new mats and tokens. Gah!
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
The Reaction copper. Also lets you avoid gaining a Curse or Ruins in exchange for more of these. Too weak.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
This is just my personal opinion, but I'm not a huge fan of reusing Madman and Mercenary this way.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I think it should also do something if the Ruins pile is empty. Like Hatter, it can be hard to track. Overall I like it. I'm hopeful that it'll work out better than the similar outtakes from Dark Ages.
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
As far as alt-VP cards go, this is one of the best ones I've seen. That being said, I don't love the fact that it makes you want to hoard Spoils, but that's just personal opinion. I think I'd mostly use it to get Spoils, then try to trash-for-benefit it. I think I'd like it better if it just gave 2 VP or some such.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Even with the clarification, I don't love the whole Reaction-resolving-in-turn-order. Nope, not a fan.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
I'm not really sure what to think about this one. I like how you can use it to gain a slew of Ruins and just play them all at once. But getting the ball rolling on those Ruins requires some help. I'll have to think more about this.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
This seems like it could be balanced, but I don't find it super-exciting. I like how the Reaction meshes with the Action, but don't love that it triggers on opponents buying any Victory card.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
I like the top half OK. The bottom half is just so much weaker than Market Square.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I don't think Dark Ages needs another junker at all. This one has a lot of clauses, but I'm not sure it brings that much to the table. Yeah, the opponent gets to discard a Treasure to reshuffle before getting hit with junk. Not a super-exciting choice, I don't think. I do like the on-trash effect! I'd like it better on a different card.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Again, I don't think we need another junker. I like the idea of an alternate use for Ruins, but I don't think this is the best way to do it.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Again, don't need another junker. This seems balanced, though. I think it's my favorite of the junkers here.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
I really hate cards with two lines. I also really hate "play an Action from your hand for none of its effects". I'd prefer "discard an Action". I like the idea of a card you cannot buy, and I even like the specific effect you get if you try to buy it. If I were to make such a card, I'd prefer something like, "When you buy this, instead of gaining it, gain two cheaper cards." Boom. One line. Then if you manage to gain it without buying it, it does something cool.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
I think I like this one OK. Neat idea. I might try it where it allows you to play only Ruins with the last clause. Maybe it's great as-is, though.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
I think it's probably too harsh. I doubt I'd often gain Ruins for these effects. I also really dislike Kingdom cards that give negative VP.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
On-trash penalties don't work. This is way too powerful, even at $5.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
I think WanderingWinder is right about the +2 Cards being a bad idea. It makes it way too easy to build an engine that spams these and just wipes the good Treasures out of everyone's decks. Without that, though, I think this could be balanced. It's interesting to me that everyone is dismissing Claim as a cute, gimmicky tack-on, when it actually seems to be the main thrust of the card. One thing that may have slipped by is that Claims that you trash to get Gold can be gained again by the next player to play a Barrister. Barring Island, Claims never leave circulation.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
This is similar to a bunch of the other cards earlier. I do like that this actually lets you play any number of Ruins. I'd prefer it it let you play them twice or something, instead of giving you the flat +1 Card for playing two or more.
And that's it! Sorry if I panned your card. Trust me, mine is getting panned, too! ;D Thanks for reading.
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Approximately 115 minutes of content for me to trim down for my thoughts on these cards...
Maybe it was just me, but I felt like these cards were of somewhat lower quality overall than the first two contests. Many more cards just struck me as duds and the like, and fewer jumped out as really cool ideas. No offence to everyone intended, maybe it's just Dark Ages is harder to make cards for.
I think its this. I know I had a much harder time coming up with a cool idea this round.
I felt like Hinterlands was really dull, and this current contest is about as good as Prosperity. (To put that in context, I'm happy with my submissions for Prosperity and Dark Ages, but I didn't submit anything for Hinterlands. Maybe there's some correlation.)
I would say that the cards are a lot more homogeneous this time around. A lot of people wanted Ruins for benefit, and the only thematic way to do that (as opposed to treating them like a Confusion that you can reveal/discard/trash for a generic effect) is 'play a bunch of Ruins for free'. A lot of people also wanted an on-trash benefit to spruce up their card, and it should be simple and not been used before. Voila; now we have three cards or so with "when you trash this, trash some more cards" below the line.
Full disclosure: I'm one of those people. I added it on a whim when I was typing up my PM. I think it does work on my card, though.
If you don't like either of those gimmicks, then you'll definitely have a smaller pool of cards to choose from.
Also, there are some seriously goofy names this time around -- I don't mind the ones that came off Wikipedia, since they're usually thematic. Dominion was the game that taught me what a Margrave is, after all. I like to think I'm unbiased enough to judge the cards purely on their mechanics and ignore irrelevant data, but a lot of these are like . . . 'nobody is going to like the name and you KNOW it'll be the first thing to go if your card wins. Why did you deliberately make it less appealing?'
I actually ctrl-V'ed one of these cards and rewrote the names to see if my opinion changed. As it turns out, 'gain a card costing up to $2 plus $1 per coin token on your Sweatshop mat' is actually kind of interesting. (It's still a Copper flooder without any built-in defenses, but that can be tweaked.) I don't think LFN needs to come up with codewords for each card, but it's worth keeping in mind when you're judging these things.
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Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
I think WanderingWinder is right about the +2 Cards being a bad idea. It makes it way too easy to build an engine that spams these and just wipes the good Treasures out of everyone's decks. Without that, though, I think this could be balanced. It's interesting to me that everyone is dismissing Claim as a cute, gimmicky tack-on, when it actually seems to be the main thrust of the card. One thing that may have slipped by is that Claims that you trash to get Gold can be gained again by the next player to play a Barrister. Barring Island, Claims never leave circulation.
Someone else brought it up too, but I missed that Blood Feud trashes all revealed cards, which is why you can reveal cards that aren't actions. This puts this almost on par with Chapel for trashing. Not sure how I feel about that.
On Barrister and Claim -- I noted that Barrister could bring back Treasures not trashed that turn. I still consider it to be a cute trick that isn't worth going for. The thing is, Claim itself is just a Copper in value. Yes you can get Claims back from the trash, but it just doesn't seem worth it to me to have to have two Claims to do it. I don't know, maybe it is worth it after all. I suppose they are almost guaranteed to match up, because if they don't collide in the same hand then the first one will usually be in the discard when you draw the second one. But if you only draw the second one in the hand that causes the reshuffle... well, that's just sad. :P
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The short version. I like Charter (A) and Robber Baron the best. Charter (A) is a cool Menagerie-activation-like (not the same mechanic, but at trash based one) variation that I enjoy... and it is good at trashing and thinning it's deck, which is great. Robber Baron is Baron-like in a way I enjoy.
The long version. Here's my video commentary for anyone interested in listening to me talk about cards for 80 minutes.
http://youtu.be/un2JcUKtYWk (as of this posting, 58% uploaded... so give it time)
Full disclosure: I submitted a card to this contest. Neither of my favorite cards is my own submission, but I do like that my submission is different from many of the cards.
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Quick question - should we be voting for cards that we feel are perfectly balanced as is, or are we voting for cards that we like the idea for, but think need more balancing?
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Quick question - should we be voting for cards that we feel are perfectly balanced as is, or are we voting for cards that we like the idea for, but think need more balancing?
The second one.
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I absolutely adore the concept behind "Bargain" but not only is it ludicrously weak, it doesn't really fit Dark Ages thematically beyond costing $1. Maybe this could work:
Bargain
Reaction - $1
When you would gain a card you may trash this. If you do, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it in your hand.
---
When you trash this, return it to the supply.
With the on trash you can block an indefinite number of Curses/Ruins. A oneshot copper may be a reasonable extra buy for $1, and probably a nice boon for Remake/Upgrade (and even Remodel and Butcher). Also there are a few "Johnny" combos that can come from using the card in an engine with gainers.
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Instead of commenting on all the cards or my favorites all at once, I'm going to try something a bit different and give extensive comments on one card each day of the week. I think this will be more conducive to discussion, and I can highlight my favorite cards here. As much as I'd like to, I won't choose my card.
Tuesday's Card:
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Before reading others' comments:
This card is super cute, and maybe my favorite of the cards submitted. It's a cantrip trasher, and is probably very strong in the opening, since it doesn't even trash a card from your hand. It obviously has the Lookout problem times 3, but mitigates it by allowing you to gain back a good card that was trashed. At the same time, it could work really well with TFB, since you could trash costly cards for benefit and gain them back with Charter (A). In fact, I think I like this implementation of the mechanic better than Graverobber or Rogue. Also, the on-trash seems to mesh well with the on-play, which is a nice bonus.
After reading others' comments:
Some people think this should cost $5. I think I disagree, since the trashing isn't targetted, which seems like it would make it significantly worse than Junk Dealer at $5. Plus, I like that it's available on both 3/4 and 2/5 openings, which sort of bothers me with strong $5 trashers like Junk Dealer.
Others have noted that the gaining from trash could have the $3-$6 restriction of Graverobber and Rogue. I definitely disagree with the lower end -- since it's an optional gain, why not allow the gaining of Estates and the like? I see no harm there. At the upper end, I think I also disagree, though I'm less certain. I definitely wouldn't like how it would discourage playing Charter (A) after you have bought a Province, especially since it works interestingly with on-trash benefit cards, and those interactions are much more likely to happen late than early. Specifically responding to:
I don't like that it can gain ANY card from the trash without restriction. Donald X. talks about this in the Secret Histories:
In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't.
I would suggest giving it the $3-$6 cost restriction on gaining cards from the trash. That introduces a weakness to this otherwise very powerful trasher, and it makes you think twice before playing it in the late game, much like Lookout.
Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.
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Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Hard to see how this would play out. If it's not too weak and your opponents get them, you pretty much have to follow suit, since it's essentially the best way to trash all the Ruins you'll be getting.
Someone else brought it up too, but I missed that Blood Feud trashes all revealed cards, which is why you can reveal cards that aren't actions. This puts this almost on par with Chapel for trashing. Not sure how I feel about that.
I agree that the second part, not the "helpful Ruins" is the more interesting part of this card (interesting not necessarily meaning good or bad, just "interesting"), and I'd like to see some more discussion on it before I decide. On the one hand, it's like a Chapel that trashes 1 fewer card (and I seem to recall that one of the Secret Histories said that that was way slower) and costs $2 more (but can act as a cannibal village). On the other hand, it's a (very) weak junker that runs out of ammunition, so might it have the expensive chapel problem (if you find out that you need it after your deck is junked, you'll never afford it). I don't know how big an issue that is; what do other people think?
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Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
So the restrictive combination of Upgrade and Remodel. I mean, it's neat, but it's basically a combination of exisiting things, and it's a bit wordy.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
I don't understand the reason for the "other that Cemetary", but well, this is probably quite weak. You have to buy two of them to get it equal to a Duchy, and after that you really have to commit for it. Buy actions, just to trash it, possibly only with Cemetary buys... a niche card at best.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
So the action is ok. A bit on the weak side, but ok. The reaction is interesting however, so you can actually use it as a trasher or to draw the cards back right away. I guess I like it.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
The remodelling village... it's quite good with T4B, especially in the endgame, and just a normal village otherwise... I feel it functions quite similar to Fortress, but I'm not sure.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
It's probably fine, but what I don't like is that it's basically a combination of known ideas. Simple Spoils gainer, digging reverse Procession, and better Catacombs bottom part.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
All around very interesting, but either I don't understand it or it's damn confused regarding thematics.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
This feels a bit strong, but can lead to some nice plays. Intriguing.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
A bit like the trashing part of Counterfeit, but without being limited to Treasures. I guess it's fine, though it might be a bit too simliar to Junk Dealer - basiaclly it's a combination of Junk Dealer and Upgrade. I think I like it.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Intersting. So most times it's either "Trash two card, +2 Cards" or "Trash one card, +1 Card"... It's probably fine, though it might even work with a lower cost.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
The reaction thing I like a lot. What I don't really understand is why the action part is mandatory for the first time and optimal for the second time... Maybe I just don't see the point.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Quite board dependend, but interesting. The big thing is probably to trash Gold during endgame to possibly gain Duchy + Province/another Duchy.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Quite wordy and too similar to Rogue for my taste.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
I guess I like it.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Well, I don't really think it's worth it to spam yourself with tons of Ruins. But I could be wrong...
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Hm... I'm not so sure if a simple non-terminal one-card trasher is a bit weak for $5. Probably it's fine...? Either way, it's not terribly exciting.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
One big problem of the card (apart from balancing, which is hard to judge) is multiplayer games. With 4 players the pile is empty by just buying 2 of those.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
I suppose it's ok. I might even like it.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Neat idea... I guess it's fine.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Another nice one.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
Not too exciting, but in terms of balance it's fine I guess.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I like the idea, but this looks too strong. Cantrip trasher for $4 with no downside, but instead a bonus if you have spammend them... yeah, too strong.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
What I don't like here is that it's again a combination of other cards (Baron, Death Cart). It could probably work, but I just don't like its 'free riding' feel.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I don't think the "if you do" clause is necessary. Otherwise just not terribly exciting. I mean, not all cards have to be fancy, but Treasure Chest cards should have at least something special to them IMO.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
I have the feeling that mostly it's not worth it. This is basically a 3-5 shot superstar+self-spammer... And it can be quite random. But yeah, I like the idea.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Probably fine.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Terribly weak I suppose.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
The top part is quite weak, so you probably get this for the bottom part? But that's also quite weak and it might scale badly in multiplayer.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Uh, this one is confusing. So the when trash only works for future trashings, not for the one the card does? Similar to the Urchin trigger? I guess I don't understand the card very well...
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Probably ok?
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
The on trash effect is interesting in terms of self-synergy... and the card itself is fine probably... not that we need another terminal trasher for $3-$4, but it probably works.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Looks balanced to me.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
This looks quite strong. Discard plus Junker plus terminal Silver for $4...? yeah, probably overpowered.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I honestly don't like those ideas with new elements and tokens and stuff. Also quite wordy.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Looks neat.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Very interesting thematically. I kinda like it and how it uses existing non-supply piles.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I like the idea, but what happens with the Ruins after it's being played? Have you acutally gained it or just played it 'virtually'?
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
3 Spoils ain't bad, but i really doubt you want to buy this for its VP benefit. $6 is just quite expensive.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Looks quite weak, and I feel it might even work for $2. Fine otherweise.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
On first glance this looks overpowered. But I guess that 1. you need to have 2 actions to play in hand to use its entire effect, 2. those actions are trashed, and 3. you can only get the weak actions back. I acutally don't think that Ruins is its main use. Just playing good $2 and $3 costs is probably the stronger effect of it. Now, it's hard to judge whether it's balanced due to the opponent interaction and some insane Highway edge cases, but I like the idea.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
The big question is: Is it ever worth it to buy Duchies (or Provinces in Colony games) just to transform them into Golds? Maybe against Duke strategies? I guess it's a very good opener, which gets extremely weak during midgame and gets a slight boost once greening has startet. I actually kinda like it.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
Looks fine.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Probably fine as well. Quite strong for $4, but not overly so.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
This can lead to crazy games I suppose. I'm not sure yet what to think of it...
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Silver Plus for $5 ist common, but here the Plus is really quite strong. On the other hand, the junking is delayed by one shuffle, so it's probably still fine? I guess?
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Uhm... so you can only gain this card without buying it. Otherwise it's like a Silvers and some $2 cost? This is probably ok-ish on its own (board dependend though), but the main action is really really strong. Maybe I'm wrong, but this feels overpowered if it's usable.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
This is probably decent once the Ruins pile is empty, but otherwise the self-junking is just too bad to justify a sorta-Silver for $2...
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Thematically it's neat: Doing drugs can make you feel great, but it 'Ruins' you in the long run. Probably fine as a Peddler variant.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Much too strong, and the bottom part probably very seldom happens.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Interesting... so you want a bunch of those I guess. Gain the Ruins and trash it right away. Looks quite good, and I think I like it.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
I honestly don't think Dark Ages needs another replace for starting cards... I mean this thing could probably work, but I just don't like the idea.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Again, I don't think you want to flood yourself with junk, just in order to play the junk... I'm not sure, but this probably doesn't work.
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Going through the ones that seem interesting.
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
Ok, so basically trash an estate gain a silver; or trash a gold, gain a province. I don't think Duchy->Gold is useful that often, and silver-->Province has it's uses, but is still nichey. Don't like the variable VP because I have so rarely seen 4 different Victory cards in the trash. But if you manage that, it's a duchy, I suppose. Overall, eh.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Really, really hard counter to Militia. Other than that it's really strong with Oasis, as it basically turns Oasis into Junk Dealer. Don't like the swinginess.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
So kind of like a Golem that only goes for one card, and lets you kind of procession it or put it in your hand. Seems alright. Bottom is similar to catacombs and I'm betting the "not a Tribal Man" is so that it doesn't autopile on $5 + Watchtower. Don't know how much the Spoils adds to the power, but without it it seems a touch weak. Maybe balanced because of the spoils.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Seems way way too strong. Disciple is very quickly a terminal silver, and often a terminal gold. Then Savior basically gives you the strongest card not in your draw pile, and can be a one time KC.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Seems almost strictly worse than Pillage? I mean it does stack to play it twice, but I don't think I'd like the Victory card part because then I don't really get the discard part. Plus it wrecks your own turn more.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Cellar variant? Seems strong. This in a 5 card hand, with say 1 action card, lets you get a 9 card hand? That's Mad(man).
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
Seems too swingy and generally unfun. I think.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Seems really weak and swingy. Trashing an Action to give a Ruins is likely not a good idea unless that action is ruins, and that's kind of like Ambassador except worse and while Amb is strong it is still a $3 card. Trashing a copper for a Spoils is meh, it gives you $1 less this hand, gives you $2 more next shuffle, and then one card less after that. Seems week for using as a trasher. Trashing an estate to give a curse is obviously the strong part, but you only have 3 estates so matching them up is very difficult unless you have an engine, in which case you probably already trashed the estates. So it sounds interesting, but not balanced.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
So either trash a card, +$2, or (if you're smart about it) "Seahag" +$2. Don't like it.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
This is so so so close to being strictly better than Explorer.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Anti scaling trash for benefit cards are generally not a great idea. You already get the benefit of getting rid of the Copper / Curse / Estate. So I don't like this. Especially because it isn't restricted to one type of junk.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Seems way too strong. Treasure is >> Cutpurse. Victory >> quite a few cursers. Action >> Militia unless it's a ruins. The trash does go into their hand, and they can discard curses free, but it still seems to strong.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Super super super strong. +$2, +2 Buys would be boring but only semi weak at $4. This also has a good reaction and is a Ruin giver.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Way way way too good.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Way way way too strong. Lab with Upgrade (yeah I know it's not but it is for estates and coppers effectively)
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Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
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Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.
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Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.
Not for my card. The response has been universally negative.
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Wow, I'm actually quite surprised by the range of response my card is getting. Some people say it's way too powerful, others that it's weak, some that it's interesting but unbalanced, and others that it is balanced but boring.
I don't understand...
Hey, are you sure, that you remember your card right and don't tell about my card? ;-) For my card it's the same.
Not for my card. The response has been universally negative.
My card has had the desired effect: FUN!
If you listen to my video, my favorite card (Charter A) struck me as terrible at first because of the indiscriminate topdeck trashing (which I don't usually like), but the recover from the trash fixed it for me.
On negative comments, if I said anything too negative about your (anyone's) card, there are several possibilities: (a) it started with "trash a card from...", (b) it does weird things with Ruins, (c) I don't understand what your card really does, and (d) I got really tired. It took longer than I thought it would.
On the active trashers, it was a popular idea (and it's thematic) but it might have been too popular (i.e., overused) for me to really give each of those cards a fair shot. Eventually, I became tired of "trash something" and wanted to see something that was more subtly part of the Dark Ages club. Before voting, I'll try to give these a better shot.
On the Ruins, there are a lot of cards in the category of WeirdingTheRuinsTM (WTR) that I won't be voting for. That doesn't mean that they're not awesome cards, but it does mean that my brain doesn't have enough RAM to make sense of them in the way I should. Tired or not.
That brings me back to Charter A. I like it because it is thematic, my brain can make sense of it, and it is fun. Whoever crafted that card, nice work (re-disclosure: it wasn't me. My card is fun, but in a meta way).
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Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:
Brick
Action - $2
This is a brick.
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Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I agree with Donald that Dark Ages doesn't really need a card that gives Curses. Once you run out Ruins and Curses, the game's pretty much over.
I don't understand this complaint. When are the Curses ever going to run out? It has to be a 4-player Estate game with everyone going hard on Incendiarist. Otherwise, you would have to specifically be buying victory cards to trash to your Incendiarist if you wanted to deal out all the Curses. And I imagine that a lot of the time, the Ruins option will never be used anyway, it's just like an Ambassador for Ruins which is not great for $5. I feel like having both Curses and Ruins run out as a result of Incendiarist being in the kingdom would be a very, very rare occurence; you have to have it be an Estate game (and this is a DA card), it has to be worthwhile to trash an action to deal out Ruins, and it has to be worthwhile to buy Estates to trash them and hand out Curses.
There's also the argument that a single card should not have the potential to deal out 20 junk cards, or that having one card deal both Curses and Ruins would lead to sloggy games every time that card is in the kingdom, but again I think this is not a valid complaint. Assuming you don't buy victory cards to fuel your Incendiarist (I'm quite sure this is an awful play in most cases), each player can only take up to 3 curses instead of the usual 5 in 2-player. But more importantly, you usually (by usually I mean almost always) only hand out a Ruins when you're trashing a Ruins, so that doesn't increase the sloginess of the game at all. It seems to me like it's less sloggy than almost any other $5 curser or looter.
Those complaints are valid against some of the other cards (I think there were two others?) here that hand out both Curses and Ruins, but I think the designer of Incendiarist (not me) very cleverly made sure to avoid both of them.
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Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:
Brick
Action - $2
This is a brick.
Anyone who posts "this is not a brick" automatically gets negative respect from me - I will go out and find posts of yours I respected, and unrespect them.
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Whoever made Brick, it should have been this:
Brick
Action - $2
This is a brick.
You may hit someone on the head with this card.
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I'm really liking Archaeologist, but I agree with others who are saying that it is too strong as written. I'm interested in what tweaks may be possible. What if you had to discard a card from your hand to activate the free Ruins bonus? Sort of like how Hamlet allows you to discard a card for a bonus.
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Instead of commenting on all the cards or my favorites all at once, I'm going to try something a bit different and give extensive comments on one card each day of the week. I think this will be more conducive to discussion, and I can highlight my favorite cards here. As much as I'd like to, I won't choose my card.
Tuesday's Card:
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Before reading others' comments:
This card is super cute, and maybe my favorite of the cards submitted. It's a cantrip trasher, and is probably very strong in the opening, since it doesn't even trash a card from your hand. It obviously has the Lookout problem times 3, but mitigates it by allowing you to gain back a good card that was trashed. At the same time, it could work really well with TFB, since you could trash costly cards for benefit and gain them back with Charter (A). In fact, I think I like this implementation of the mechanic better than Graverobber or Rogue. Also, the on-trash seems to mesh well with the on-play, which is a nice bonus.
After reading others' comments:
Some people think this should cost $5. I think I disagree, since the trashing isn't targetted, which seems like it would make it significantly worse than Junk Dealer at $5. Plus, I like that it's available on both 3/4 and 2/5 openings, which sort of bothers me with strong $5 trashers like Junk Dealer.
Others have noted that the gaining from trash could have the $3-$6 restriction of Graverobber and Rogue. I definitely disagree with the lower end -- since it's an optional gain, why not allow the gaining of Estates and the like? I see no harm there. At the upper end, I think I also disagree, though I'm less certain. I definitely wouldn't like how it would discourage playing Charter (A) after you have bought a Province, especially since it works interestingly with on-trash benefit cards, and those interactions are much more likely to happen late than early. Specifically responding to:
I don't like that it can gain ANY card from the trash without restriction. Donald X. talks about this in the Secret Histories:
In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't.
I would suggest giving it the $3-$6 cost restriction on gaining cards from the trash. That introduces a weakness to this otherwise very powerful trasher, and it makes you think twice before playing it in the late game, much like Lookout.
Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.
Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer. JD forces you to trash a card from your hand. Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it. Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better! At its worse, it is a cantrip. That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck. JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead. At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.
On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure. Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue. The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.
On the upper end -- if it was only a combo with your personal TfB, that's kind of cute and fun. But the thing is, being able to gain Provinces from the trash discourages other existing cute tricks. Maybe I'll want to Salvage my Provinces to try to end the game quickly while I have the lead... but if Charter is in the game and I don't have a way to play Charter after, I can't risk you stealing that Province. So it mitigates options. The strength isn't in the possibility of me gaining my own Province, but in you gaining the Province I sacrificed.
But that's not all. There are also games where Saboteur and Swindler can trash Colonies and Provinces. Charter makes these games even swingier -- now there's not only the chance of me losing a high VP card, there's also a chance that another player swoops in and scoops it out of the trash, just from their own good luck that they drew Charter after my bad luck. This is a 20 point swing that can happen from a $3 card and a $4 card. Villages aren't even needed -- if I trash your Colony, then you're out of luck if you don't already have Charter in your hand but I draw it in my next one. And even if you have Charter, you could still get unlucky if Charter itself trashes another Colony.
It might not be a broken interaction, but it has the potential to be extremely unfun. Possession-Amb/Masq can cause similar VP swings, but at least in this case one of the cards is extremely expensive and you have to Amb me an Amb or Masq me a Masq for you to guarantee even a chance of pulling it off. Charter stealing Province and Colony does not require as much effort. It just requires some swingy luck.
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Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer. JD forces you to trash a card from your hand. Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it. Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better! At its worse, it is a cantrip. That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck. JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead. At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.
lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.
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Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
The top part is fine, although a $5 non-terminal Victory upgrader reminds me too much of Rebuild. The bottom I don't like. This is usually just going to be 1 VP.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Well, this can't be very good. You'll probably just buy it after your opponent has done all the work.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
A very Watchtowery Cellary card. The top is nice, better than Cellar but reasonably so. But okay, the bottom: Why would you top deck a card you were discarding? This is supposed to be some draw-X assistance thing? Yeah I don't know, that seems kind of weird. I don't know, the card isn't very Dark Ages-y to me.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
It's a Village that is an on-trash Remodel. Well, I don't think this very good, because you don't want to get rid of your Villages. Think of Mining Village, which is not really a great Village, since trashing it kind of defeats the purpose. And Mining Village self-trashes so I would think this has to be alittle wosrse. Otherwise, they are similar effects.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Well, points for originality. I am having trouble imaging how well it works in practice, but it's probably fine. Not super interesting to me, but okay, it's kind of cool. Don't love the name.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
No, don't like this at all. I think you're going to just spam Disciples to get the Savior effect most of the time. Unless I'm misjudging it and it's just awful. So I don't thin there's much interesting middle ground strategic landscape here, and that's no good. Like, would you want to play with Really Good Treasure Map? That's not fun.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
So it's in the Loan/Counterfeit family? Doesn't seem very strong to me. $5 is a lot of money for a Copper.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Well, you usually don't have so many differently named cards that you want to trash. Like, 2 at most? I guess it's better with Ruins. Maybe if you have something of an engine going, you can clean out Ruins pretty well with this. And it's not too expensive. Well okay, let's say no Ruins. You trash Estate and Copper and get +2 cards. That's a decent effect. Yeah okay I like this card. Don't like the name, though. The name is very Guildsy to me.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Wow. This is a really brutal attack. Someone tries to trash their cards, and you just stop them and give it right back? Yikes. No thanks.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
I like this. Not much to say. It's terminal Apprentice or Salvager without buy. Plus a fine on-trash. Wouldn't surprise me if it was too strong, though.
That's all for now.
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Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer. JD forces you to trash a card from your hand. Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it. Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better! At its worse, it is a cantrip. That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck. JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead. At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.
lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.
Not ignoring it. Charter (A) is always safe, which means you can safely get multiple copies of it. For the purposes of quickly slimming down, I think it matches and possibly exceeds Junk Dealer, and its ability to gain other trashed cards also gives it an advantage. I agree that Junk Dealer is better, but I don't think it is significantly so.
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Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.
This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think. Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate. OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off. And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.
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Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
I'm not wanting to see more Rogues/Knights type stuff, really. Sorry.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Very very strong, right? Like massively strong. It's very easily non-terminal, and you knock out their best card, and if they have Province in hand you are giving them a Ruins? Okay, I guess a delayed Ruins giver isn't so great. And there's no benefit to you. But before they green, really this is just Pillage. And you can do it again at that point. No thanks.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Yeah, there's comes a point where there's just too much going on with your card. Anyway, I suspect this is too strong, based on all the various ways it gives you + cards.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Seemingly weak, but the while in play fact of it makes it kind of interesting. Has a nice interaction with cards you want to trash, like Rats and Fortress and such. Yeah, this is cool.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
I like the idea, but I tihnk it fails completely in execution. You just never want to play it, it's always more benefit to your opponent, and you GIVE them Pacts. Also it has a weird interaction with the Spoils running out. I don't think interesting weird, just weird.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
Since you may trash it, it's never worth less than $4. I just don't think it's very exciting. Sort of like a cross between Death Cart and Rats, but not trading exciting new ground.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Incendiarist is not a word. How about Bombardier? Anyway, this seems irritiatingly strong--you get rid of Estates and give them Curses. There's no vanilla benefit to you, but it's flexibile--you can just trash Copper for Spoils and that's really strong as well I suspect. Probably too strong at $5. And I don't love it.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Way too strong. A flexible Mountebank that doesn't hurt quite as much, but then again the junk goes on top of their deck and it can't be blocked. I'd say this is actually going to be stronger than Mountebank, provided you can get a Curse into the trash. Although spamming them with Estates is also going to really hurt, and this card can put Estates in the trash very easily. Oh, and the piles will run very fast. Yeah this is too strong. Maybe even at $6.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I think this card is fine but a bit boring and not very Dark Agesy.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
A lot of work to make this good, and it still really isn't.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Super weak I suspect, and too much like Death Cart. Having Ruins is NOT good.
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Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.
This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think. Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate. OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off. And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.
You're right! Okay, how about this pretty clever--though exceedingly gimmicky--solution.
"While this is in play, there are no Renovates left in the supply." So you can't gain Renovate, and you can't play BoM as Renovate. ;D
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Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
Someone mentioned that this can gain all the Renovates if you have Fortress. I was thinking this wasn't such a worrisome thing, but actually maybe it is, because then you can mass Renovate Renovates and you play the stuff immediately and it's really good. This is a narrow combo, but maybe we'd just avoid it by stipulating that this card can't gain itself.
This doesn't actually fix the problem, I think. Renovate Fortress into BoM, play BoM as Renovate. OK, now we're looking at a 3-card combo, but when it's on the board it is just as easy to pull off. And the end result is usually better, because now you have 10 BoMs rather than 10 Renovates.
You're right! Okay, how about this pretty clever--though exceedingly gimmicky--solution.
"While this is in play, there are no Renovates left in the supply." So you can't gain Renovate, and you can't play BoM as Renovate. ;D
Aaaand, you've crossed the line from clever into clunky. I mean it's still a clever fix, but the clunkiness trumps it in my mind. :)
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Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Not to disrespect DXV, but I see this being more of a fun combo than a broken interaction. How often do Provinces end up in the trash normally -- maybe 1-2% of games? Then, in the handful of games where you'd want to TFB a Province and then get it back, is this really that strong? I mean, if your opponent also has a Charter (A), you'd have to make sure you trash your Province and gain it back this turn to make sure your opponent doesn't get it. But, most TFB and remodel cards are terminal, which would require a village, and now you're talking about setting up an engine to get the combo played. It sounds a lot more like some very reasonable mega-turn combos than a broken interaction to me, but maybe playtesting would show differently.
Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer. JD forces you to trash a card from your hand. Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it. Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better! At its worse, it is a cantrip. That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck. JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead. At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.
On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure. Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue. The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.
On the upper end -- if it was only a combo with your personal TfB, that's kind of cute and fun. But the thing is, being able to gain Provinces from the trash discourages other existing cute tricks. Maybe I'll want to Salvage my Provinces to try to end the game quickly while I have the lead... but if Charter is in the game and I don't have a way to play Charter after, I can't risk you stealing that Province. So it mitigates options. The strength isn't in the possibility of me gaining my own Province, but in you gaining the Province I sacrificed.
But that's not all. There are also games where Saboteur and Swindler can trash Colonies and Provinces. Charter makes these games even swingier -- now there's not only the chance of me losing a high VP card, there's also a chance that another player swoops in and scoops it out of the trash, just from their own good luck that they drew Charter after my bad luck. This is a 20 point swing that can happen from a $3 card and a $4 card. Villages aren't even needed -- if I trash your Colony, then you're out of luck if you don't already have Charter in your hand but I draw it in my next one. And even if you have Charter, you could still get unlucky if Charter itself trashes another Colony.
It might not be a broken interaction, but it has the potential to be extremely unfun. Possession-Amb/Masq can cause similar VP swings, but at least in this case one of the cards is extremely expensive and you have to Amb me an Amb or Masq me a Masq for you to guarantee even a chance of pulling it off. Charter stealing Province and Colony does not require as much effort. It just requires some swingy luck.
Thanks for your thoughts! These are the types of conversations I was hoping could come out of deeper analysis.
First of all, I still don't think Charter (A) is as good as Junk Dealer. I basically agree with LastFootnote above: you don't get +$1 and don't get to choose what to trash, which will make it a lot slower to trash your starting cards. Maybe the +$1 is made up for by the fact by trashing not coming from your hand, but it still doesn't mitigate the untargeted nature of Charter (A).
About a possible upper limit: I guess I can see your concerns, but still don't think its necessary. Most of the things you point out seem like they should be more strategic considerations, not obvious brokenness. For example, if Charter (A) is on the board, then maybe think twice about going for a Salvage-your-Provinces strategy, yeah? I think this type of card interaction and Rock-Paper-Scissors is really interesting!
As for Saboteur and Swindler: well, they're swingy anyway. I concede that the combo could lead to bad situations.
If there is a limit of max $6 taken from the trash, I would recommend the same limit be imposed for cards trashed from the top of the deck in order to take late-game swingyness out of the card. Otherwise, you really can't play this once you've bought a Province.
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Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
It is a nice simple concept to deal with the $1/$2 cost difference oft he Treasure and Victory cards. The VP condition is relative to Trade route or City normally the player with most Cultivates has to trash a Province for Gold to get the 3 VPs. Nice idea, but I dont think it is very exciting.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Another interesting VP card - a bit like Rats, since it turns another card into a Cemetery. Want to play this with Knights and Death Cart. I like it, but it always needs a combo card.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Discard reaction! Very interesting, but I think it is too strong. Kills all discard attacks.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Procession/ Golem variant. I am a fan of those cards but I think this one is a bit too complex. Maybe just cut away the spoils and make it a $4? Anyway, the possibility to play the action normally makes it very interesting.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Basically Stonemason's action, but instead of the second copy you get +$. +1 Action on-trash looks fun, too. I think I like it.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
This one looks fun. It could be +5 Cards, +1 Action (i.e. 4 Labs), but you get a ruined deck. Maybe it is a bit too crazy.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I think the Action is too weak, it reduces the handsize by 2. It can't get sticked on +1 Card because you could empty the Provinces too fast with that. Maybe +1$?
The Reaction is great.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Very good idea, but maybe it would also work at $4.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
This one reminds me of my Hinterlands card, Courier (A). The effect sounds funny that you can gain a $5 cost with your Workshop. But that's not worth it, especially since it costs 1$ itself. I don't think Bargain has much to do with Dark Ages.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Changes the feeling of trashing. Maybe it would work at $2, too.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
So you can open with Danse Macabre to get a 2/3/3 start (on two turns). Once you actually gained the card, it is a Stables for Actions. I wonder if none of its effects includes in-play effects. I think Danse Macabre can delete the cantrip effect of Highway, but not the in-play effect since it is in play.
It is a weird card, but it is not wordy. So I like it very much.
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Charter (A) would not be significantly worse than Junk Dealer. JD forces you to trash a card from your hand. Charter pretends to force you to trash a card from your deck, except it optionally lets you discard it. Moreover, sometimes it lets you trash and then gain something better! At its worse, it is a cantrip. That means it pretty much never hurts to have it in you deck. JD, OTOH, can actually run out of fodder and become dead. At $5 JD is probably usually stronger than $5 Charter, but $4 Charter is just too good when you factor in the tricks that it can pull off.
lolwut? Are you just purposefully ignoring that Junk Dealer gives +$1 and gives you a choice of what gets trashed? The fact that it may eventually become a dead card is not a big deal. It's still way better than Charter (A) in almost all circumstances. I agree that the gain should be capped at $6, though.
Not ignoring it. Charter (A) is always safe, which means you can safely get multiple copies of it. For the purposes of quickly slimming down, I think it matches and possibly exceeds Junk Dealer, and its ability to gain other trashed cards also gives it an advantage. I agree that Junk Dealer is better, but I don't think it is significantly so.
It may be safe to get multiple copies of it, but there's still a large opportunity cost to doing so. The thing is that in order for Charter to gain cool cards from the trash, it needs help from other cards. That sort of conditional ability, where you have to work to make it activate or others have to help you activate it, can be on a cheap card. Think Menagerie or Conspirator.
It's hard for me not to compare this card to my own cantrip-blindly-trash-the-top-card-of-your-deck-but-not-really card, Gambler.
Gambler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: Trash that card; or put that card into your hand and trash this.
So instead of just discarding a good card you hit, you put it into your hand but also trash the Gambler. Gambler is a card that we've playtested a lot and it's always seemed fine (at $3, no less). Granted, there are major differences between Gambler and Charter, and I've never tried to simply rush Gamblers, but I doubt it would be a smart move.
Charter just doesn't seem that much more powerful, and when it is, it's because of neat combos on the board. I think I'd probably almost never buy it at $5, but $4 seems reasonable. It does have the problem that either it can gain Provinces from the trash or you're afraid to play it because it could trash your Provinces, depending on whether or not it has the $6 cap. I'm on the fence about it because of that. But as far as its power as a trasher, I think $4 is very reasonable.
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I might be wrong here but Charter (A) seems like it would immediately be one of the 2 or 3 most powerful cards in the game (I think rebuild is still ahead of it).
1. Early on you have cantrip trashing which alone is worth $5 (trashing while keeping a 5 card hand probably makes it equivalent in power to upgrade or junk dealer)
2. Late in the game you have absolutely safe trashing which needs no collision, the reason you can't mass upgrade or junk dealer or rats is that you run out of targets and they become dead cards
3. The self interaction is insane, if a charter turns up a charter then it becomes at least as good as +3 cards +1 action.
I'm fairly sure that winning the charter split would be at least as good as winning the minion split and possibly better.
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Thanks for your thoughts! These are the types of conversations I was hoping could come out of deeper analysis.
First of all, I still don't think Charter (A) is as good as Junk Dealer. I basically agree with LastFootnote above: you don't get +$1 and don't get to choose what to trash, which will make it a lot slower to trash your starting cards. Maybe the +$1 is made up for by the fact by trashing not coming from your hand, but it still doesn't mitigate the untargeted nature of Charter (A).
About a possible upper limit: I guess I can see your concerns, but still don't think its necessary. Most of the things you point out seem like they should be more strategic considerations, not obvious brokenness. For example, if Charter (A) is on the board, then maybe think twice about going for a Salvage-your-Provinces strategy, yeah? I think this type of card interaction and Rock-Paper-Scissors is really interesting!
As for Saboteur and Swindler: well, they're swingy anyway. I concede that the combo could lead to bad situations.
If there is a limit of max $6 taken from the trash, I would recommend the same limit be imposed for cards trashed from the top of the deck in order to take late-game swingyness out of the card. Otherwise, you really can't play this once you've bought a Province.
I think you both misunderstood my comparison. I think Junk Dealer is certainly stronger. But Charter (A) as it is looks too good for $4 to me. You both seem to be considering playing Charter (A) in the same way as JD, in which case of course JD wins out. But with Charter (A) you are pretty free to get multiples and trim your deck very easily, and it won't even cost you a card in hand. Yes there is some opportunity cost in getting them, but there are often ways to do it fairly painlessly and the trimmed deck is often worth it.
Yeah Sab and Swindler are swingy. They rae swingy enough, there really shouldn't be a spammable cantrip that makes them even swingier.
With a $6 cap on cards it can gain, then it's more reasonable to me. You are incorrect that you can't play it after you've bought a Province. You certainly can -- it's just risky. It's like Lookout that way. You can still play it if you know your Provinces are already past, or if you've done some Spying or something. This is a reasonable weakness for the card to have. And if you find that you don't want to take that risk... is that really so bad? The same thing happens with Lookout, and sometimes even with JD, Upgrade and Masquerade.
It may be safe to get multiple copies of it, but there's still a large opportunity cost to doing so. The thing is that in order for Charter to gain cool cards from the trash, it needs help from other cards. That sort of conditional ability, where you have to work to make it activate or others have to help you activate it, can be on a cheap card. Think Menagerie or Conspirator.
It's hard for me not to compare this card to my own cantrip-blindly-trash-the-top-card-of-your-deck-but-not-really card, Gambler.
Gambler
Types: Action
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Look at the top card of your deck and choose one: Trash that card; or put that card into your hand and trash this.
So instead of just discarding a good card you hit, you put it into your hand but also trash the Gambler. Gambler is a card that we've playtested a lot and it's always seemed fine (at $3, no less). Granted, there are major differences between Gambler and Charter, and I've never tried to simply rush Gamblers, but I doubt it would be a smart move.
Charter just doesn't seem that much more powerful, and when it is, it's because of neat combos on the board. I think I'd probably almost never buy it at $5, but $4 seems reasonable. It does have the problem that either it can gain Provinces from the trash or you're afraid to play it because it could trash your Provinces, depending on whether or not it has the $6 cap. I'm on the fence about it because of that. But as far as its power as a trasher, I think $4 is very reasonable.
I don't think the opportunity cost is big enough to justify it though. Yeah it requires something else to gain good stuff from the trash, but it's not that difficult to make happen. Knights, Rogue, Swindler, Sab, Rebuild, Graverobber and all manners of TfB, Pillage and other one-shots...
My problem isn't that this gain-from-trash is too strong. It's just that it's strong with another strong ability (essentially optional trashing outside of your hand) on a completely safe (cantrip) card that is at a spammable price point. Menagerie and Conspirator both take a lot more effort to activate, whereas this will hit quite consistently early on (for the trashing) with potential for crazy tricks later.
Your Gambler is much, much more reasonable. It has far more opportunity cost in that you may end up having to trash the Gambler to save a Province. That's cool. And it also doesn't have any of those scary swingy Colony-stealing combos with Swindler and Sab.
With a $6 cap on the gain, I think it is reasonable at $4. Still a strong trasher, but you can't overload on them because they would (usually) become liabilities later. Sometimes they are still very strong (e.g. non-green games such as with Goons), but that would be fine.
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Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Reasonable. Well, pretty strong, but terminal.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Huh. Well, that's sort of novel. Really hard to tell whether it's bad or too good or what. It might be fine. It's interesting. I doubt it's broken, but it may need a different cost.
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Too powerful, and the game ends super fast, and not fun. And I don't like the name, it's too Magic-esque.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Totally fine card. Not the most exciting, but well designed, I think.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
I just don't like "worth VP per something something trash" cards. The top is fine but meh.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
At first I said, "this is insanely good," but then I realize it's backward deliberately, in order to weaken it. Frankly, I hate this card (no offense). It's trying too hard, you know what I mean?
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Just kind of boring.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
The extra part feels tacked on to me.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Uh, this is like that other one, right? I don't know, I liked the other one more, for some reason. The bottom part is already covered by Fortress.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
And you cost this at $4???!!!! Um, hell no.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
It's just too much stuff for something that isn't very exciting.
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On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure. Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue. The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.
Oh, really? I thought it was so Rogue could still attack instead of gain if there were just a bunch of Coppers and stuff in the trash.
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On the cost restriction -- the lower end is less important, sure. Without it, you can really abuse Embargo, but that's probably the only issue. The reason why it was originally introduced was to prevent the retrieval of Madman, but Madman doesn't trash itself now.
Oh, really? I thought it was so Rogue could still attack instead of gain if there were just a bunch of Coppers and stuff in the trash.
Mm, that makes sense for Rogue. The Secret Histories do mention Madman as a reason though. But I guess there are numerous reasons.
When the top-card-trashing attacks all died their deserved deaths, I had to find a way to fix up the Knights. I settled on trashing cards in the range $3-$6. I tried other ranges, man, don't think I didn't. If the lower limit is $4, you always buy Silver over $4's, which makes the game less fun. If the top limit is $5, you always buy Gold over $5's, which makes the game less fun. $3-$6 is the range that does not actually stop you from building a deck with actions, while not helping your opponents by trashing junk, and not being so swingy as to trash Provinces. I could have gone $3-$7 but decided to let the $7's be excitingly immune to Knights.
Graverobber: It's obvious that you could make a card that gets cards from the trash. What's not obbvious is that it will end up looking like this. There was just a straight line that led from the idea to the final card though. It had to provide a way to get good cards into the trash, so that it wouldn't just stare at an empty trash, or a trash full of Coppers and Estates. So, it's a Remodel. Furthermore it's a Remodel that likes to trash actions that cost $5, which is just the kind of thing you're happy getting from the trash. In games where Provinces end up trashed, such as via other Remodels, it's way too good to be able to gain them with Graverobbers, so you can't. It also can't get cheap cards, which was to stop you from getting Madman (a combo we first suffered through for a while). I later changed Madman to not go to the trash, but kept Graverobber at $3 to $6, because that makes things a little easier - you keep one pile of real trash and one pile of good trash - and it meant I could safely do other non-supply $0* cards in the future without worrying about Graverobber, if somehow that comes up.
...
Madman originally was trashed. I switched it to going back to the pile as part of my ruthless weeding out of the Graverobber / Madman combo.
So for trashing as an attack, you want the lower bound. For gaining from the trash, the upper bound matters. On Rogue, I suppose the lower bound is important as well because it's a forced gain, but I'm not sure that was in the design process.
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Since I didn't feature a card yesterday, here's a bonus Tuesday Evening Card:
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Before reading others' comments:
This card is pretty simple, and I like it for that. The top seems so obvious, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere, including fan cards and Outtakes. I'm guessing it has been on some other fan card that I haven't seen or don't remember. It's obvious, but it's also interesting. It works much better with handsize reducers than its most similar cousins (Storeroom, Cellar, Vault, and Warehouse). It's probably most similar to Storeroom, but I think would play differently enough - for one reason, playing it from a 5-card hand gives one extra card draw, but doesn't give Storeroom's other bonuses.
The bottom of the card is something I've tried and liked before, except my version was a "while this is in play" and only offered trashing. I might advocate taking off the top-decking option, both to simplify the card as well as avoid some potential weird situations. Either way, I like it. Would two of these make for too strong of trashing? Probably not, but could be fun to try!
After reading others' comments:
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
I know you're a stickler for rules like this, but I see no reason this needs to be a big deal. Two Tunnels can be redeemed when discarded simultaneously. I think the card wouldn't confuse normal players, and with a clarification in the rules, shouldn't pose any problems. I really don't get all the discussion -- stick this in front of a casual-to-intermediate player, and they'll surely understand that you can reveal it to trash multiple cards discarded by Cellar.
I'm unsure about power issues of this card, but they definitely don't feel unfixable by tweaking cost/number of cards to draw to/whether it can topdeck on reaction.
The other critique I'd like to address is that it doesn't feel very Dark Ages-y. I have to somewhat agree here - the most Dark Ages part is the reaction. But, it's more flavorful than other Dark Ages cards, such as Sage, Ironmonger, and Scavenger. They can't all be Rats (well, unless you're LordBottington).
Overall: This isn't my favorite card submitted, but I like it quite a bit, and would be happy to see it in the expansion. It's interesting without being crazy, which is nice!
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Since I didn't feature a card yesterday, here's a bonus Tuesday Evening Card:
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
After reading others' comments:
This has some open questions rules-wise. Let's say you have Cellar and Patrol in your hand. You play Cellar and discard three cards and reveal Patrol. Do you top-deck or trash all three cards, or just one of them?
I know you're a stickler for rules like this, but I see no reason this needs to be a big deal. Two Tunnels can be redeemed when discarded simultaneously. I think the card wouldn't confuse normal players, and with a clarification in the rules, shouldn't pose any problems. I really don't get all the discussion -- stick this in front of a casual-to-intermediate player, and they'll surely understand that you can reveal it to trash multiple cards discarded by Cellar.
It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile. However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed. So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead." The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant. It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.
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Maybe I should have commented on all the cards at once, but this sectioning off of posts seems better.
Somehow, there appears to be even less agreement this time around.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
This is terrifying with a single Curse in the trash. It becomes a SuperSea Hag for $5 that benefits you directly and can stack multiple curses on top of the deck of your opponents. And yeah, the political ruins thing too, I guess.
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I do agree that this smokes Explorer, but that's nothing a a balance adjustment can't fix. Or maybe, this is balanced and Explorer is just that weak. It's good, but does it belong in Dark Ages?
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Way better than Spy, but Spy ain't so great, so that's okay. It's awesome when it hits another Charter, but if you've used Herald, then you'd know that kind of collision doesn't just happen on it's own. The restrictive top-deck trashing lets this pass balance-wise, I think.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Baron is fun, right? This merges Baron with Death Cart. Upon comparison
to Militia, this looks like it's best used as a defense against other looters. Perhaps this should just give $4? Seriously, this looks way worse than Militia.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Altar's other half. Simple, but in a refreshing way.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Seems, uh, strong right now. I'm still not sure why Donald got rid of the ruins playing cards he tried out. Such a card might be entertaining in the end. Wording wise, this should get rid of the first-second-third notation and just say something like "play one of the 3 three times, play another one twice, and the last one once".
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
I agree that this slogs up the game so badly."last player" should just be "any player", no?
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I like this one. This lets you gain spoils over silver when you'd prefer Spoils. That effect is meaningful with gainers. Can this trash a silver to top-deck a Spoils, or is this an Ironworks/Trader blue dog thing?
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Like with Cemetery above, you're just helping everyone by trashing VP cards. Or, you're undoing your opponent's efforts by removing Duchies and Estates from there. At least they got to trash stuff.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Turns every trasher into a non-terminal, sifting trasher, or sifting village, or super village in the case of Chapel, Right? If you 4 trash cards simultaneously with Chapel, do you get the benefit 4 times?
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
I really like this one. A player on the receiving end of this may still be willing to take a ruins if it means he or she also gets a gold, because ruins aren't THAT bad. The trashing that the attacker gets may be good enough bonus to make this competitive.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
So you can more-or-less use this to develop another copy of this. That's neat. I dig it.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
An Apprentice/Salvager hybrid. With 2 copies of these, you can trash a Province for high payload and keep the Province. I'd be happy to use this a bunch in DA heavy games.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Powerful, but not too powerful, I don't think, with the card going into the hand. As mentioned before, it can be block by discarding a curse like you can for Mountebank. It's even better here because it keeps you safe from all future Iron Maiden attacks until your next turn. Alright!
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I get that each player has to take a Copper for this to work, but that also leads to second-third-fourth player advantage, where your play of it gives you no tokens, but gives the next person to play it a token.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
...Do I know you from somewhere. Good with gainers and tfb-gainers, and yay it costs $1 like those other DA cards. Somehow, it manages to charm me. I play a Rats and then reveal this to get a Lab instead of a Rats.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Do I want a Badass, or a PTSD psycho. Both options seem good.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
I thought this was Hatter when I first read it. Wording issues aside, this can be absurd with the right ruins on top, but then this is countered by itself. Another player can just use these to empty the ruins pile. Interesting.
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
The VP part seems really weak, though the gaining 3 spoils thing has some value under the right circumstance
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Don't trash that Province with Salvager! Though perhaps one of the most evil cards I've seen (it can steal Fortresses) I like its possible interactions with other DA cards. However, others have pointed out how bad this can be for gameplay. That's a shame.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
The on-play seems good, but it's nature isn't so good for activating the on-trash effect of this, since these stack poorly. But, there are other ways to trash cards, and it doesn't need the on trash at all to work.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Similar to Cultivate, but it works one way and gets you 2 treasures. Has a neat little reaction to help it along, too.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
A slow trasher, but it has a reaction that synergizes with other Smelters. I find it decent.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
It adds the universal Chancellor effect option to soften the blow. it should benefit the attacker more than Marauder, so this is very strong. It could work, though.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
That Mob Boss is really neat, though too easy to get. You'll want that extra ruins once you have the Boss, and everyone can easily get a Boss of their own (well, not if there is only 5). So, Angry Mob is more of a fun game changer than an attack.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
That's one mean charter! A straightforward attack that makes use of Ruins junking to become non-terminal. A decent balance twist on a junker.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
You can't even gain this without a gainer. And can you even trash a card before gaining it? When you can get it in your deck, it's just so strong, turning itself and another action card (even a Ruins or the gainer you used to get it) into a Lab. That random trash effect isn't worth having an awkward second horizontal line for, but others have suggested wording tweaks.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
How strong/weak is this? Either way, I find it quite interesting.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Ruins-Hamlet. Adds another layer of strategy to the game, and it's a fine one too. Everyone loves Ruins, or at least they want to love Ruins. Why can't Ruins just stay bad for the rest of Dominion's days?
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Even if this costed $5 and discarded first, it would still be way stronger than Junk Dealer,and Junk Dealer is already so good. +1 card is just going to be better than +$1 on a non-terminal most of the time. Naturally, you use this like you would Junk Dealer, not like you would Lab. With that in mind, the on-trash penalty is nothing to really be concerned about.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Hehe, this one looks so cool. They work well together when they collide too; The first one puts a Ruins in your hand, and the second one trashes it. Playing Procession with this sounds like something I'd like to try, though that might just end in a big mess.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
So this fixes Thief, and introduces cute little Claims that can turn into Gold. That's nothing major. It's just a little extra something that adds to Barrister's charm.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Garderobe's cousin. May need some balancing work. Whether you like this or not all depends about how you feel about RtB (Ruiins for Benefit).
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When does the next round start? (Or do I oversee it?)
And could you please announce it here, so that we know it without searching for it?
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It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile. However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed. So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead." The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant. It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.
You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?
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I haven't read all of them yet, but here are some things i noticed:
- Many cards feel overly complex to me. Especially the themes "trash an action" and "get a card from the trash" seem overly present, often enough even combined.
- Though not that simple either, i absolutely love the idea of Soldier. I didn't even think about whether it's balanced yet, but the idea that it can become both a Madman or a Mercenary is very cool. What i like most is how thematic the card is.
- My card is different, but it's awesome, too.
- I'm a bit disappointed by a certain card idea i knew would be at this contest. I feel a version that i made of it was better.
Coming back for more close reviews later.
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It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile. However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed. So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead." The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant. It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.
You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?
This is discussed in this thread. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7095.msg200151#msg200151) In short, the Lose-Track rule in the Dark Ages rule book simply doesn't say anything about revealing (rather than moving) cards, so even though Tunnel is lost track of for the purposes of the Lose-Track rule, you're still permitted to reveal it because the rules don't say you can't. This implies that even if you've literally lost track of where the Tunnel is, you're still permitted to reveal it, I guess, if you can find it; it's one of those cases (like Moneylender) where the game rules don't actually keep you honest.
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It is quite evident to me that you can reveal this reaction all you want, but the only card which can be moved to the trash is the one of top of your discard pile. However, I think you are probably correct that the intent was that any could be trashed. So I would propose changing it to "when you would discard a card... trash the card instead." The Tunnel thing is unrelated, by the way, since Tunnel does not move itself and therefore the Lose Track rule is not relevant. It is an easy fix, so it shouldn't deter anyone from voting for this card.
You reveal Tunnel. How would you reveal a card when you lost track of it?
This is discussed in this thread. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7095.msg200151#msg200151) In short, the Lose-Track rule in the Dark Ages rule book simply doesn't say anything about revealing (rather than moving) cards, so even though Tunnel is lost track of for the purposes of the Lose-Track rule, you're still permitted to reveal it because the rules don't say you can't. This implies that even if you've literally lost track of where the Tunnel is, you're still permitted to reveal it, I guess, if you can find it; it's one of those cases (like Moneylender) where the game rules don't actually keep you honest.
I always just assumed Tunnel is in About-To-Be-Discarded Land, where there is no covering up and nothing is lost track of, when you reveal it. I never read the Hinterlands rulebook, so I don't know when exactly a player reveals Tunnel.
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A few quick things:
First, I am going to add a clarification to Patrol specifying that you can reveal it separately for each card discarded.
Second, the author of Junkyard (C) has asked me to remind people that when you trash it, you trash another card and gain a card costing $1 less than that one. Apparently there is some confusion where people think you are gaining a card costing $1 less than the Junkyard itself.
When does the next round start? (Or do I oversee it?)
And could you please announce it here, so that we know it without searching for it?
The next round is Seaside. I will be posting it later today.
I am now taking votes for the Dark Ages cards. Feel free to wait until the last minute, though. I encourage discussion.
That is all.
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As I understand it, Tunnel gets revealed en route to the discard pile, which means "when you discard" is not quite consistent with "when you play", "when you trash", &c., but is the only sensible option.
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As I understand it, Tunnel gets revealed en route to the discard pile, which means "when you discard" is not quite consistent with "when you play", "when you trash", &c., but is the only sensible option.
In practice, this is certainly the sensible thing to do. I can't (at the moment) think of any adverse consequences this interpretation of "when you discard" would have, relative to the official interpretation (discussed at length in the linked thread), but maybe I'm just not creative enough.
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Well, here are my comments on these cards - I know I haven't said anything yet, but here goes!
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
The top is interesting, especially due to the fact that it's nonterminal and self synergizes. I would be hard pressed, though, to like the variable Victory portion, simply because someone has to trash a Province to do it (although I will note that it's always possible). I would be more happy with the card if it depended on Treasures rather than Victory cards.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
I like this one more - encouraging players to trash Action cards isn't nearly as bad, and you could well get the maximum value of Cemetery even without any other trashers on the board - in fact, I bet that most games would have that.
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Clarification: If you discard several cards at once, you can reveal a Patrol separately for each card discarded.
Allowing topdecking seems to make the card too powerful - it would kill all discard attacks. But allowing you to trash what you discard seems like a fantastic idea. The top portion seems good, too, if it drew you up to 4 instead of 5.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Doesn't seem all too interesting - Remodel is hard enough to use as it is.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
I don't know why this one needs the Spoils, but I like the rest of the card: essentially, you can either choose to use up an extra Action to play the card unscathed, or take a free Action to downgrade the card.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Too wordy - Savior tries to do too much. I do, however, love the way you get Savior - in a Treasure Map-esque fashion. Savior's on-return effect seems like it should be end-gamey, but I think it should be something that's easier to pull off and more balanced than King's Courting an Action (such as a $ or gain bonus).
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
This is fun. :) Get a free card to play - that always works.
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
I don't know what to say about this one - the fact that it costs $5 seems too strong to me, especially since Brick can trash itself.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Don't like this name either. The "differently named" cards clause seems to do a good job of balancing it.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Basically, "trash one or two cards from the top of your deck" and "if you have this, you can sabotage the trash attempt and get them back in their hand". If we changed the Reaction to trigger on "a card" rather than "a set of cards", it'd make more sense. Another thing I see is that this becomes horrible with Cursers, since there's a chance that you can't trash them, though how likely is it that you're going to have this in your hand when they trash?
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
I don't see why the gained card should go in your hand, but it seems all right, I guess.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
You wouldn't be able to play a Treasure immediately without ending your Action Phase, so that's an obvious problem. I also don't think that we need the Attack - the on-gain already does plenty for the card.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Basically Pillage if it hits an Action card. Doesn't seem too interesting.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Much too wordy, tries to do too much.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This one seems legit - I especially like the benefit for trashing non-junk.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
I can't say I like what happens when all the Pacts get in the trash and the Spoils run out.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
Interesting - the fact that it costs $4 almost always makes it a good play. I can't tell whether it would be better to say "while this is in play" as opposed to "in games using this" - I guess, thematically, that the Ferrets breed more of themselves in the former.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Ruins and Curse junkers, like many other people have said, seem too strong, since they run out the piles too quickly. This one seems especially bad, since the cards you'd most want to trash (Victory cards) give the best attack (Curses).
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
Again, as others have said, this becomes scary with Curses in hand. If this is a production card, it would definitely need the Sea Hag fix (discard the top card first).
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I'd probably want some other choice (such as +1 Buy), but other than that, the card seems to work fairly well.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is the most interesting one to me, in terms of the potential it has. However, right now, all that it does is trash the top card (activating on trash) and simply lets you gain the best card from the trash, whatever it is. I can guarantee that a Province will likely never stay in the trash - I don't see a reason why you would leave one in there unless there was a really powerful card in the trash such as King's Court (and I don't know why one would be in there, either).
...And that's all I have time to say for now. I might say more later.
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Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
This is theoretically nice to deal with junking. Of course, the price level on this guy means you just end up with a lot of these. That's... not so great? Of course a lot of these means you aren't getting the worse junk, but these are pretty junky themselves. I don't know. Probably not a very worthwhile card.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Well this is just significantly easier to activate than Urchin/Hermit. Way, way, way so. Do not like it.
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Yes, this is a pretty cool idea. But as is... I think it's just quite too strong. If the top Ruins card is Ruined Library, I mean this card gives you an extra +1 card per Action you play. Of course Archaeologist has to be terminal. Does it have to give +1 card? I think it shouldn't. I also think it should possibly cost $6. Good idea, though.
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
This turns Spoils into junk cards (sort of) and ends up being pretty bad. The bottom part is cool, though, but the top just doesn't work.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
Okay. I think I like this. Both halves make sense, are new and sufficiently interesting. Car doesn't seem broken to me, and I think the clarification is logical. Yeah, I'm happy with this one.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Way too powerful for $3. This is like a Throne Room effect. Sure there's a slight chance they steal your good actions, but okay, this is just too good I tihnk at $3.
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Eh. Treasure and Victory card trashing just isn't very Dark Agesy to me. That's probably personal bias. The card is probably fine, but doesn't excite me.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
So this trashes Copper like a weak, weak Moneylender, it trashes Actions... but nobody wants to do that (except Ruins), it trashes Estates and then draws. It's not very good. Well, it's cheap, and you can gain cheap cards with it. Okay, I think it's fine. Not my favorite card ever but decent. Still kind of a weak, I think.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
A Marauder that Chancellors everybody? Okay. Well, too much like Marauder for me. Likely a very strong card.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
Nope, nope, don't want Ruins, nope. YEah I think this combo of cards is just super super weak.
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Too much like IGG for me.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
I really like the thought that went into this card. It's very cool, but I think it's just a bit too fancy. There's going to be a large, large number of boards where you can never get this, you just do the on-trash thing which will have its uses but be pretty marginal over all. When you CAN gain this card, I expect the top part is just extremely, extremely strong. So I think this card may very well be terribroken. Maybe if it were tweaked it would work. +4 Cards and +1 Action is SUCH a powerful effect. You would just gain lots and lots of these things and use them on themselves.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Terrible. Terrible card. This effect is incredibly weak.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Again, you wouldn't want so many Ruins. Ruins are really bad for your deck, do people realize this? And as a personal thing I just don't like the bottom part at all.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
?????????? The top, by itself, is amazing. It's better than Lab, and cheaper! It's better than Upgrade and Junk Dealer in all likelihood. The top part is a $6 benefit. The bottom... okay, well just don't trash it then. Don't buy so many of these guys, just like two or something. Way, way too strong an written.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
So sick of cards that give you Ruins. This one at least gets rid of them in some semi-logical way, but I think it's just not worthwhile.
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
Barrister is a super-strong Thief type card. Don't think it would be fun. Also, stealing Treasures isn't Dark Agesy.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
Probably terrible, although the super cheap cost and oodles of vanilla benefits may swing it the other way. Nah, probably just terrible.
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Wednesday's Card:
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Before reading others' comments:
I really like this card as a medium-weak trasher and a medium-weak junker. Before Dark Ages was released, I had hoped for a Dark Ages-y curser, since each set has its own themed curser. Well, Cultist and Marauder were as close as we got. This card feels like it could have fit right in as the Dark Ages curser. Plus, its a lot of fun with multi-type cards.
First up, Incendiarist provides light trashing. Then, depending on what you trash, you either give out Ruins or Curses, or gain a Spoils. Near the beginning of the game, this will mostly trash Estates to hand out Curses, unless its a Shelters game. It will also get some action trashing Coppers for Spoils. I really like this interaction, since Spoils can help build up an engine near the beginning, but then get out of the way once the engine starts chugging. I also sort of like that this doesn't give benefit for trashing Curses, and will make explosions of Ruins once Ruins start being trashed by it. The only downside here is that it seems unlikely to start trashing Actions in the first place, meaning Ruins may never come into play even if this card as a Looter is bought. But, with some on-trash benefit cards of DA, this might happen anyway.
As for power and balance, I think it seems very reasonable at $5. I would guess it's weaker than most $5 junking attacks, though maybe close to the level of Soothsayer. I don't think its broken from what I can tell.
After reading others' comments:
I guess most of the comments boil down to "this is too strong" or "this is too weak". I don't get the first -- I really don't think this is stronger than other $5 cursers. The most comment complaint that trashing Estates to give out Curses seems unfounded. To me, that action is very similar to Ambassador, since in the early game Estates and Curses are approximately equal. Plus, I don't think the ability to do that 3 times in a game is close to as strong as Witch's +2 Cards and always give a Curse. True, there are other options on Incendiarist, but Estate->Curse is probably the strongest.
As for the "too weak" comments, I don't get that at all. Surely this would be at least in the top 2/3 of $5, right? It seems reasonably balanced for a $5 card, especially since $5 is a price point with a lot of variation in power.
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Wednesday's Card:
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Before reading others' comments:
I really like this card as a medium-weak trasher and a medium-weak junker. Before Dark Ages was released, I had hoped for a Dark Ages-y curser, since each set has its own themed curser. Well, Cultist and Marauder were as close as we got. This card feels like it could have fit right in as the Dark Ages curser. Plus, its a lot of fun with multi-type cards.
First up, Incendiarist provides light trashing. Then, depending on what you trash, you either give out Ruins or Curses, or gain a Spoils. Near the beginning of the game, this will mostly trash Estates to hand out Curses, unless its a Shelters game. It will also get some action trashing Coppers for Spoils. I really like this interaction, since Spoils can help build up an engine near the beginning, but then get out of the way once the engine starts chugging. I also sort of like that this doesn't give benefit for trashing Curses, and will make explosions of Ruins once Ruins start being trashed by it. The only downside here is that it seems unlikely to start trashing Actions in the first place, meaning Ruins may never come into play even if this card as a Looter is bought. But, with some on-trash benefit cards of DA, this might happen anyway.
As for power and balance, I think it seems very reasonable at $5. I would guess it's weaker than most $5 junking attacks, though maybe close to the level of Soothsayer. I don't think its broken from what I can tell.
After reading others' comments:
I guess most of the comments boil down to "this is too strong" or "this is too weak". I don't get the first -- I really don't think this is stronger than other $5 cursers. The most comment complaint that trashing Estates to give out Curses seems unfounded. To me, that action is very similar to Ambassador, since in the early game Estates and Curses are approximately equal. Plus, I don't think the ability to do that 3 times in a game is close to as strong as Witch's +2 Cards and always give a Curse. True, there are other options on Incendiarist, but Estate->Curse is probably the strongest.
As for the "too weak" comments, I don't get that at all. Surely this would be at least in the top 2/3 of $5, right? It seems reasonably balanced for a $5 card, especially since $5 is a price point with a lot of variation in power.
The thing I dislike most about it is the name. Incendiarist is not a thing.
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Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Clarification: If you discard several cards at once, you can reveal a Patrol separately for each card discarded.
Allowing topdecking seems to make the card too powerful - it would kill all discard attacks. But allowing you to trash what you discard seems like a fantastic idea. The top portion seems good, too, if it drew you up to 4 instead of 5.
Top-decking doesn't kill discard attacks.. Ghost Ship is still fine. If you mean in conjunction with the fixed draw, it's still not a perfect defense because Patrol is terminal.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
You wouldn't be able to play a Treasure immediately without ending your Action Phase, so that's an obvious problem. I also don't think that we need the Attack - the on-gain already does plenty for the card.
Sure you can, if the card lets you. Black Market does it too, and it's even less explicit about it.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Well this is just significantly easier to activate than Urchin/Hermit. Way, way, way so. Do not like it.
That's wrong. It's way easier to get Madman through Hermit -- you just don't buy something. You can do that with your very first Hermit. To get a Madman with Soldier, one has to already be in the trash. And while it's easier to get Mercenary through a Soldier than through an Urchin, that can potentially be tweaked just by changing the number of requisite treasures.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
I really like the thought that went into this card. It's very cool, but I think it's just a bit too fancy. There's going to be a large, large number of boards where you can never get this, you just do the on-trash thing which will have its uses but be pretty marginal over all. When you CAN gain this card, I expect the top part is just extremely, extremely strong. So I think this card may very well be terribroken. Maybe if it were tweaked it would work. +4 Cards and +1 Action is SUCH a powerful effect. You would just gain lots and lots of these things and use them on themselves.
Lots of people have been saying this but I don't really see it. Yes +4 Cards, +1 Action is powerful... but you need to neuter an action card to do it. Basically it turns itself and one other action card into two Labs. If you don't have another action card in hand, it's dead. Considering that you have to jump through a hoop to even get a copy of it, and that you have to jump through another each time you want to activate it, it doesn't seem so brokenly powerful to me. Lab itself is not bonkers good. And unless the extra action card is a Ruins (in which case, that's just a nice little counter) then there is significant opportunity cost in throwing away that other action.
If there is a complaint to be made about the on-play, it's that it's fairly swingy in whether you can match it up with an action or not. Baron is somewhat similar though.
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Wednesday's Card:
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Before reading others' comments:
I really like this card as a medium-weak trasher and a medium-weak junker. Before Dark Ages was released, I had hoped for a Dark Ages-y curser, since each set has its own themed curser. Well, Cultist and Marauder were as close as we got. This card feels like it could have fit right in as the Dark Ages curser. Plus, its a lot of fun with multi-type cards.
First up, Incendiarist provides light trashing. Then, depending on what you trash, you either give out Ruins or Curses, or gain a Spoils. Near the beginning of the game, this will mostly trash Estates to hand out Curses, unless its a Shelters game. It will also get some action trashing Coppers for Spoils. I really like this interaction, since Spoils can help build up an engine near the beginning, but then get out of the way once the engine starts chugging. I also sort of like that this doesn't give benefit for trashing Curses, and will make explosions of Ruins once Ruins start being trashed by it. The only downside here is that it seems unlikely to start trashing Actions in the first place, meaning Ruins may never come into play even if this card as a Looter is bought. But, with some on-trash benefit cards of DA, this might happen anyway.
As for power and balance, I think it seems very reasonable at $5. I would guess it's weaker than most $5 junking attacks, though maybe close to the level of Soothsayer. I don't think its broken from what I can tell.
After reading others' comments:
I guess most of the comments boil down to "this is too strong" or "this is too weak". I don't get the first -- I really don't think this is stronger than other $5 cursers. The most comment complaint that trashing Estates to give out Curses seems unfounded. To me, that action is very similar to Ambassador, since in the early game Estates and Curses are approximately equal. Plus, I don't think the ability to do that 3 times in a game is close to as strong as Witch's +2 Cards and always give a Curse. True, there are other options on Incendiarist, but Estate->Curse is probably the strongest.
As for the "too weak" comments, I don't get that at all. Surely this would be at least in the top 2/3 of $5, right? It seems reasonably balanced for a $5 card, especially since $5 is a price point with a lot of variation in power.
The main complaint that people have is that it can give out both Curses and Ruins, and this is a fair concern. I think I agree with others that DA shouldn't have an actual Curser, since it has Ruins as its thing (if you want every set to have a thematic Curser, DA really is set with Cultist/Marauder, whereas Soothsayer doesn't really fit Guilds at all).
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Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Well this is just significantly easier to activate than Urchin/Hermit. Way, way, way so. Do not like it.
That's wrong. It's way easier to get Madman through Hermit -- you just don't buy something. You can do that with your very first Hermit. To get a Madman with Soldier, one has to already be in the trash. And while it's easier to get Mercenary through a Soldier than through an Urchin, that can potentially be tweaked just by changing the number of requisite treasures.
Not buying something hurts a lot though, which is why you don't always just take Madman... and also because Hermit is a very interesting card with a lot of cool uses that you would rather have. Okay, yeah, Soldier can't get you a Madman right away, but it's pretty straightforward to do it, and Soldier is a really uninteresting card to me.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
I really like the thought that went into this card. It's very cool, but I think it's just a bit too fancy. There's going to be a large, large number of boards where you can never get this, you just do the on-trash thing which will have its uses but be pretty marginal over all. When you CAN gain this card, I expect the top part is just extremely, extremely strong. So I think this card may very well be terribroken. Maybe if it were tweaked it would work. +4 Cards and +1 Action is SUCH a powerful effect. You would just gain lots and lots of these things and use them on themselves.
Lots of people have been saying this but I don't really see it. Yes +4 Cards, +1 Action is powerful... but you need to neuter an action card to do it. Basically it turns itself and one other action card into two Labs. If you don't have another action card in hand, it's dead. Considering that you have to jump through a hoop to even get a copy of it, and that you have to jump through another each time you want to activate it, it doesn't seem so brokenly powerful to me. Lab itself is not bonkers good. And unless the extra action card is a Ruins (in which case, that's just a nice little counter) then there is significant opportunity cost in throwing away that other action.
You just neuter a weak action, which this is. So you just get lots of these and play them all like this and it's uncomplicated and easy. It's like too much self-synergy, if that makes sense. Lab is not bonkers because it costs $5. This, when you can get it at all, will be easy to get a lot of. It's pretty much terribroken, although certainly not beyond fixable.
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Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
The main complaint that people have is that it can give out both Curses and Ruins, and this is a fair concern.
I really don't get this argument. Just the fact that a single card can give Curses and Ruins doesn't make it concerning. What if there were a card that said "You may trash a Province. If you do, each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins." Is that card too strong or OP? No. It's not. So, you have to look at what the card actually does, which it seems that no one is doing when they say "lolz, gives out Curses and Ruins, too strong".
The main reason a card could be bad if it gives out Curses and Ruins is that it could be too good at filling opponents' decks with junk. Maybe there's a secondary concern that it would be too easy to empty 2 piles this way, but I just don't see that happening with Incindierist -- if you're buying Estates to trash to give out Ruins, you're going to have a bad time. Which gets us back to the first point. At least in 2 player games, this is almost never going to give out all the Curses. Next, let's think about what you have to do to give out Ruins -- you have to trash another Action card. Sure, if that's another Ruin, that's great, but otherwise it's not going to happen much. And even in the trash-a-Ruin scenario, you're not going to have tons of Ruins from other Incindierists alone, since if its the only Looter, it will end up more like Ruins tennis sending back and forth 1 Ruin. So, I really don't see the problem here when you actually dig into the card and look beyond the fact that it *can* give Ruins and Curses.
(Note: I will admit that it's a bit different in 3- and 4-player games, where there are more Estates to trash and more of a Ruins explosion. But, I still don't think this will be any stronger than the top 3 or 4 $5 junkers.)
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As for Soldier upgrading to easily, that is definitely a concern. I open with Soldier, then on turn 3 play it. This early, probably all four of us have a Copper in hand, so I am pretty much guaranteed a Mercenary. Then the second person to play Soldier already gets to choose either upgrade.
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
It is not true that you can always do one of those things. If the game has some stronger form of trashing, you aren't going to hold on to much junk just to fuel this card.
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
It is not true that you can always do one of those things. If the game has some stronger form of trashing, you aren't going to hold on to much junk just to fuel this card.
Yeah, but this is just quite strong trashing in and of itself, because it trashes for you while junking your opponents. I mean you are always going to have pretty much a Copper around at least. I guess this does not match well with Chapel, unlike some other junkers, but other than that...
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I made the first half.
One of the cards in the contest is mine.
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
I think the action card is too poor (Copper -> Estate -> Silver -> Duchy -> ..., and ?) and the victory part isn't that interesting, because it's only an extra pile of estate/duchy. (well, it may easily become a duchy with a few other trashing)
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Except when you're forced to gain it (Swindler, but not Jester because it's a victory card), and when there are no other trashers, it may be nice. But I'm not ready to trash a great action to boost it !
Patrol
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Discard any number of cards. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
When you discard a card from your hand other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, either trash that card, or put it on top of your deck.
Clarification: If you discard several cards at once, you can reveal a Patrol separately for each card discarded.
Reaction part is pretty nice, but also pretty strong ! And I already tried the action part with 7 and 6 cards instead of 5 and no reaction and a higher cost, so it's a bit of my idea, too. But I think both together are too strong.
Model Village
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions.
When you trash this, you may trash a card from your hand. If you do, gain a card costing up to $2 more than it.
Should be able to trash itself like Mining village, but it may be broken. Too poor, otherwise.
Tribal Man
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile. Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal an Action card. Choose one: Put the card into your hand; or play the Action, trash it, and gain a card costing less than it.
When you trash this, gain an Action card costing at most $5 that is not a Tribal Man.
Disciple
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Look through your discard pile. You may reveal a Treasure from it and put it into your hand. You may trash this and another copy of Disciple from your hand. If you do trash two Disciples, gain a Savior from the Savior pile.
Savior
Types: Action
Cost: 0*
+1 Action. You may put your deck into your discard pile. Look through your discard pile and put a card from it into your hand. You may return this to the Savior pile. If you do, play an Action card from your hand three times. (This is not in the Supply.)
Disciple seems boring (platinum, gold, or copper ?), but Savior may be okay. Pretty fine.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
I agree, it may empty Fortress pile ! Not for me, sorry !
Brick
Types: Treasure
Cost: $5
Worth $1. When you play this, trash a card you have in play. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
When you trash this, gain a Copper, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: Under normal circumstances, you will be able to trash the Brick you just played.
Upgrading treasures ? I dislike the idea. Treasures should give you $s and gain things only, but the treasure part is fine. I hate the on-trash part, though.
Bricklayer
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash any number of differently named cards from your hand. +1 Card per card trashed.
Deathmonger
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash the top card of your deck. You may trash the top card of your deck.
When any player (including you) trashes cards, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, that player puts the trashed cards into his hand.
Action part is a bad idea because you need a spy, or something to check. And if you want to save them you need... another Deathmonger ! And reaction part steals cards (Swindler/Saboteur/bridges+knight on a province/platinum/colony, here you go !)
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Looks like haggler if you trash an expensive card (gain a cheaper card and buy back what you trashed), maybe a bit more boring if you have other money and no +buy.
I dislike the "when you trash this during your Action phase" ideas, but they don't seem to harm many people, and it's not worse than other ideas. I don't know, in fact.
Necromancy
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Choose one: Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash, putting it into your hand. Play it immediately. At the end of the turn, trash that card; or each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one of them costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest.
When you gain this, you may trash a card costing up to $6 from the Supply if there is not a copy of it in the trash.
Too many words !
Only the action card should be played immediately, but the action part is fine, just another Knight-like.
I dislike the on-gain part, though.
Ravage
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may discard a card. If you do, +1 Action. Each other player with 3 or more cards in hand reveals his hand and discards the card with the highest cost in coins (you choose in a tie). If he discarded a Victory card, he gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
I dislike the idea of forcing to reveal hands, sorry.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
EDIT: Added "+1 Card per Action card discarded" to Junkyard (A).
The "you may gain a ruins option" is pretty controversed, but I like the idea of action cards giving you 2 cards instead of just 1. Okay.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Simple, and nice. Another terminal trasher, that allows you to trash from discard this time. I like this.
Pact
Type: Treasure
Cost: $2
Worth $0. When you play this, trash it. For each Pact in the trash, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile, putting it into your hand.
When you buy a Pact, each player gains a copy of it (you get 2 copies total).
Should be 20 of 'em in the supply, otherwise it would deplete. And of course, you should fix the on-gain part. I don't like the ideas of Spoils for $2, though.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
So mostly a one-shot $4 ? Hmmm... I dislike this.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Ambassador-like. It is fine.
Priestcraft
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; or choose a card in the trash and each other player gains a copy of that card, putting it on top of his deck.
May ruin a turn if stacked !
Miser
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Choose two: +$2; gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; gain a Silver. (The choices must be different.)
I think I will always choose +$2/Spoils ! I like it, though.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
Another "trash top card from your deck". Sometimes you hit your province and you have to catch hit back, so it's a discard, sometimes it's the same with your Grand Market or something useful you wouldn't like to discard, sometimes it's a cultist so jackpot, or a copper that you may convert into a province... it's still too swingy, sorry !
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
Well chosen name ! But it's a bit poorer than Militia, because as some people said, you need another card just to gain $1 more than militia.
Sacrifice
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. If you do, +$2 and gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
Convert the cards into Spoils and gain immediate benefit. Looks a bit like Merchant Ship. I like this, but does it fit well with the thema of poverty in Dark Ages ? Let's say yes, as it looks much like Altar.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
Giving yourself ruins is already bad, but at $5 it's ... wow !
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
I agree that the choices make this card good. I don't think $6 good, but maybe. But, I definitely disagree with your assessment of the pricing of the parts:
- Trashing a Ruins to give out Ruins? That's worth $0 on most boards. I'd likely never buy that card (which will most of the time be worse than a Ruins itself) except for some, but not all, Cultist and Marauder games.
- Trash a Copper to gain a Spoils -- if you consider Spoils to be about equivalent in value to Silver, then this is a much worse Mine or Taxman. Maybe a $2 card, at most $3.
- Trash an Estate to give a Curse? That's got to be worse than Ambassador, right? Amb is much more general, can pass Coppers, and passing Estates is almost as bad as Curses. So, again, a $2-$3 card.
So, I agree that the combination is what makes this card interesting and decently powerful. But, not overly powerful.
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You just neuter a weak action, which this is. So you just get lots of these and play them all like this and it's uncomplicated and easy. It's like too much self-synergy, if that makes sense. Lab is not bonkers because it costs $5. This, when you can get it at all, will be easy to get a lot of. It's pretty much terribroken, although certainly not beyond fixable.
I don't think it would be super easy to get lots of them. I mean, what would be the best card for that? Ironworks, maybe? So you can get one of these per Ironworks per shuffle. Still doesn't seem uncomplicated and easy to me. How many Ironworks will you go for? What payload are you going to go for, and how will you get it? Just having Labs isn't great if there isn't a good card for you to play at the end. And these can still whiff.
As for Soldier upgrading to easily, that is definitely a concern. I open with Soldier, then on turn 3 play it. This early, probably all four of us have a Copper in hand, so I am pretty much guaranteed a Mercenary. Then the second person to play Soldier already gets to choose either upgrade.
But can't this be solved just by changing the numbers a bit? Perhaps the bigger issue is how it scales with number of players, but plenty of official cards have that issue too.
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
It is not true that you can always do one of those things. If the game has some stronger form of trashing, you aren't going to hold on to much junk just to fuel this card.
Yeah, but this is just quite strong trashing in and of itself, because it trashes for you while junking your opponents. I mean you are always going to have pretty much a Copper around at least. I guess this does not match well with Chapel, unlike some other junkers, but other than that...
Unless you break open your actions, it can only trash and junk three times, and that is if you successfully line this up with all three of your estates. And only once in a shelters game, although then necro is more apt to bring out ruins. Most often, past the first curse or two, you are gaining spoils. Trashing Copper for a Spoils, not junking. Copper for Spoils is probably roughly moneylenderish, and moneylender is not strong trashing.
You just seem to have a deeply emotional loathing of the card, which I can't comprehend. It seems fine to me, beyond scaling awkwardly. But you tend to comment on mostly two player games, which is where this is least dominating.
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I think the main complaint against Incendiarist is that it's very dominating, and thus uninteresting.
Each of its options is really good, and the fact that you have the option makes them even better. And it trashes junk. The Action trashing thing really only works against other Ruins, but hey that's not bad at all. "Trash a Ruins, if you do, give each other player a Ruins." What would you price that card at? $4 seems reasonable to me (compare with Marauder). "Trash a Copper, if you do, gain a Spoils." That's probably at least a decent $4 benefit as well. "Trash an Estate, if you do, give other players a Curse." That's definitely a $4 benefit.
You can ALWAYS do one of these things. You can even just trash Curses if you need to, for no benefit (which isn't good, but at least you can). Altogether I think that makes it a very, very strong $5 card, possibly a $6 card. The choices really improve this card.
It is not true that you can always do one of those things. If the game has some stronger form of trashing, you aren't going to hold on to much junk just to fuel this card.
Yeah, but this is just quite strong trashing in and of itself, because it trashes for you while junking your opponents. I mean you are always going to have pretty much a Copper around at least. I guess this does not match well with Chapel, unlike some other junkers, but other than that...
Unless you break open your actions, it can only trash and junk three times, and that is if you successfully line this up with all three of your estates. And only once in a shelters game, although then necro is more apt to bring out ruins. Most often, past the first curse or two, you are gaining spoils. Trashing Copper for a Spoils, not junking. Copper for Spoils is probably roughly moneylenderish, and moneylender is not strong trashing.
You just seem to have a deeply emotional loathing of the card, which I can't comprehend. It seems fine to me, beyond scaling awkwardly. But you tend to comment on mostly two player games, which is where this is least dominating.
I don't LOATHE the card, I just think it's quite strong and uninteresting. I mean sure, my opinion is somewhat arbitrary. There are lots of cards to reject!
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You just neuter a weak action, which this is. So you just get lots of these and play them all like this and it's uncomplicated and easy. It's like too much self-synergy, if that makes sense. Lab is not bonkers because it costs $5. This, when you can get it at all, will be easy to get a lot of. It's pretty much terribroken, although certainly not beyond fixable.
I don't think it would be super easy to get lots of them. I mean, what would be the best card for that? Ironworks, maybe? So you can get one of these per Ironworks per shuffle. Still doesn't seem uncomplicated and easy to me. How many Ironworks will you go for? What payload are you going to go for, and how will you get it? Just having Labs isn't great if there isn't a good card for you to play at the end. And these can still whiff.
They really won't whiff, though. It's very easy to get actions to collide, when any old action will do! (Buying the most amount of actions WITHOUT having them collide is the hard thing.)
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Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Yes, this is a pretty cool idea. But as is... I think it's just quite too strong. If the top Ruins card is Ruined Library, I mean this card gives you an extra +1 card per Action you play. Of course Archaeologist has to be terminal. Does it have to give +1 card? I think it shouldn't. I also think it should possibly cost $6. Good idea, though.
Yeah I have to agree that it's way too strong as written. Just having one of these in play while R. Library or R. Village is on top can lead to effortless super turns. It seems very hard to balance though. You don't know if the top 10 Ruins are all Abandoned Mine or Survivors at the start of the game. The source of the problems is that this is using Ruins in a way they weren't designed to be used. Ruins were just supposed to be junk cards, not a vanilla bonus randomizer deck. Ideally, this would interact with a non-supply "dig site pile" that consists of a bunch of unique card. That could be cool. Those kind of cards weren't allowed for this contest though.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Way too powerful for $3. This is like a Throne Room effect. Sure there's a slight chance they steal your good actions, but okay, this is just too good I tihnk at $3.
But Throne Room almost works at $3. The $3 restriction on card gains should have an effect on how this plays out, no? Also, lining up Throne Room with an action can be hard enough. This has to line up with 2 actions to make full use of the first choice.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
A Marauder that Chancellors everybody? Okay. Well, too much like Marauder for me. Likely a very strong card.
I agree that it looks very strong
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
I really like the thought that went into this card. It's very cool, but I think it's just a bit too fancy. There's going to be a large, large number of boards where you can never get this, you just do the on-trash thing which will have its uses but be pretty marginal over all. When you CAN gain this card, I expect the top part is just extremely, extremely strong. So I think this card may very well be terribroken. Maybe if it were tweaked it would work. +4 Cards and +1 Action is SUCH a powerful effect. You would just gain lots and lots of these things and use them on themselves.
I'm in the camp that thinks this is too strong when you can gain it. This might even be able to use the gainer as a second action card, depending on the gainer.
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The source of the problems is that this is using Ruins in a way they weren't designed to be used. Ruins were just supposed to be junk cards, not a vanilla bonus randomizer deck.
I dunno; Donald X. cut Hatter apparently because it was too hard to track, not because Ruins simply aren't suited to that function. (Hatter is cantrip, play top Ruins and move it to the bottom of the pile. ...And honestly, I don't see that that's that much harder to track than, say, Ironmonger.)
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I feel like that Archeologist would be good with that fix that someone suggested where you only get the under the line bonus once per Archeologist.
Personally, I think Incendarist scales pretty badly in 4p games, if one person goes for it and makes a Ruins explosion, it seems like everyone needs to go for it too, which is boring.
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The source of the problems is that this is using Ruins in a way they weren't designed to be used. Ruins were just supposed to be junk cards, not a vanilla bonus randomizer deck.
I dunno; Donald X. cut Hatter apparently because it was too hard to track, not because Ruins simply aren't suited to that function. (Hatter is cantrip, play top Ruins and move it to the bottom of the pile. ...And honestly, I don't see that that's that much harder to track than, say, Ironmonger.)
True, but I'd be surprised if that was the only factor. What happens to Hatter in games where 2 or more players go for Cultist and Marauder?
I should have been more specific concerning my concern with Archaeologist. Archaeologist works in a way that every single card played after it can be boosted with an extra vanilla bonus decided by chance. The card doesn't actually play the Ruins, and I wouldn't even call it a Ruins-for-Benefit card, since it doesn't give you Ruins and doesn't particularly want you to have Ruins over other actions in your hand. Already, the Dominion outtake card that gave you a coin after every action you played was either really weak or really strong depending on your action density. Imagine having a card that can make every action card non-terminal. The Ruins effects weren't balanced around being a booster for any action that is played. It's worse here because the Ruins can be bought later on in the turn, potentially denying your opponent from getting the same benefit. I think that special bonuses have to be designed for such a mechanic.
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I feel like that Archeologist would be good with that fix that someone suggested where you only get the under the line bonus once per Archeologist.
I originally thought Archaeologist was a cantrip the played the top Ruins once, like a Ruins Ironmonger. Such a card could cost 4 like Ironmonger, and it has that top Ruins trashing too (which could be changed to putting the card at the bottom of the deck). I was able to wrap my head around that version. I was baffled when I realized how it actually worked.
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I feel like that Archeologist would be good with that fix that someone suggested where you only get the under the line bonus once per Archeologist.
I originally thought Archaeologist was a cantrip the played the top Ruins once, like a Ruins Ironmonger. Such a card could cost 4 like Ironmonger, and it has that top Ruins trashing too (which could be changed to putting the card at the bottom of the deck). I was able to wrap my head around that version. I was baffled when I realized how it actually worked.
Oh, ok. Still feel like it would be an ok fix.
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The source of the problems is that this is using Ruins in a way they weren't designed to be used. Ruins were just supposed to be junk cards, not a vanilla bonus randomizer deck.
I dunno; Donald X. cut Hatter apparently because it was too hard to track, not because Ruins simply aren't suited to that function. (Hatter is cantrip, play top Ruins and move it to the bottom of the pile. ...And honestly, I don't see that that's that much harder to track than, say, Ironmonger.)
True, but I'd be surprised if that was the only factor. What happens to Hatter in games where 2 or more players go for Cultist and Marauder?
A good point. If it were up to me I'd have it do something completely different if the Ruins are empty.
...Aha, actually I see Donald X had that idea too (though not for Hatter, which probably didn't survive long enough for him to have worried about it yet):
A few cards tried to provide other uses for the Ruins pile. One was "+1 Card +1 Action, play the top Ruins, put it on the bottom." It was cute but there's a tracking issue. I did Ironmonger instead. Another card played the top four Ruins. It gave you +$3 instead if the Ruins ran out, because what fun is that.
This quote also makes another point I was going to make, which is that Hatter is way too similar to Ironworks to be worth adding (and therefore probably so would a revision of Archaeologist to make it more like Hatter). Which is a shame, because I kind of like Hatter.
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Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Way too powerful for $3. This is like a Throne Room effect. Sure there's a slight chance they steal your good actions, but okay, this is just too good I tihnk at $3.
But Throne Room almost works at $3. The $3 restriction on card gains should have an effect on how this plays out, no? Also, lining up Throne Room with an action can be hard enough. This has to line up with 2 actions to make full use of the first choice.
I really think the card is quite weak and deserves the $3 cost.
1. Aligning it with 2 Action cards is nothing you can take as a given.
2. You have to trash those Actions.
3. You can only get the weaker Actions back from the Trash.
4. Your opponent can do the same thing.
I mean, it probably could cost $4, but what would be the point? You certainly don't want to open double Raid...
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A few cards tried to provide other uses for the Ruins pile. One was "+1 Card +1 Action, play the top Ruins, put it on the bottom." It was cute but there's a tracking issue. I did Ironmonger instead. Another card played the top four Ruins. It gave you +$3 instead if the Ruins ran out, because what fun is that.
This quote also makes another point I was going to make, which is that Hatter is way too similar to Ironworks to be worth adding (and therefore probably so would a revision of Archaeologist to make it more like Hatter). Which is a shame, because I kind of like Hatter.
Yeah, I feel like Archaeologist is forced to go in that direction. You could spice it up by allowing the player to return Ruins to the Supply from hand (or maybe the trash); that would prevent the card from killing itself, but it would still be a retread of a card that got cut from Dark Ages for being too similar to a card from Dark Ages. The only thing I can think of is to use more explicit Dominion terms to allow more flexibility when tweaking and allow interactions with Reactions and other cards.
If I had my druthers, it would look like [cantrip or whatever] + "Gain and play a Ruins from the Supply [or trash?]. At the end of your turn, you may return any number of Ruins cards from play to the Supply in any order." Here you can play Ruins from your hand as well, and then toss them back into the Supply to clear out junk from your deck. I think that alone makes it a little more interesting than Hatter, with fewer tracking issues than Ironmonger, but otherwise it stays faithful to the Archaeologist that was submitted. I don't mean to tweak the card in the middle of the contest; I'm just saying that it can be tweaked, and people would come up with more clever things to do with this. It's definitely in the 'Indulgence' rather than the 'Hinterland' category, and if people like the idea they should vote for it with a clear conscience.
Full disclosure: not my card.
There were a lot of RfB cards, but near as I can tell there's only five more that relate the benefit to the actual action, rather than giving a fixed bonus per brown card in hand. That would be Slumlord, Raid, Garderobe, Blood Feud, and Mendicant: I've made it clear that I really want a card of this type to win, however hard it may be to balance it. I'm up past my bedtime as it is, but I'll write more on this tomorrow.
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Yeah, this is the one contest in which I think my card is one of the worst. And similar to above, I also really want a RuinForBenefit to win. I mean it seems ruins were almost made for something like this, otherwise they'd pretty much just be a confusion. Archaeologist is definately my favorite so far.
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I voted for Charter (B) solely because of the "Each other player gains a Ruins in hand" effect. Unlike Soothsayer, it's a brilliantly simple "benefit now, problem later" effect that doesn't feel forced. I wish Marauder or Cultist worked that way. If the card wins I hope we can couple it with a more interesting non attack effect. Being a Treasure/Attack is interesting but I feel like the Treasure Card in the set should be something that really needs to be a Treasure to make its interesting component work.
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A few cards tried to provide other uses for the Ruins pile. One was "+1 Card +1 Action, play the top Ruins, put it on the bottom." It was cute but there's a tracking issue. I did Ironmonger instead. Another card played the top four Ruins. It gave you +$3 instead if the Ruins ran out, because what fun is that.
This quote also makes another point I was going to make, which is that Hatter is way too similar to Ironworks to be worth adding (and therefore probably so would a revision of Archaeologist to make it more like Hatter). Which is a shame, because I kind of like Hatter.
Yeah, I feel like Archaeologist is forced to go in that direction. You could spice it up by allowing the player to return Ruins to the Supply from hand (or maybe the trash); that would prevent the card from killing itself, but it would still be a retread of a card that got cut from Dark Ages for being too similar to a card from Dark Ages. The only thing I can think of is to use more explicit Dominion terms to allow more flexibility when tweaking and allow interactions with Reactions and other cards.
If I had my druthers, it would look like [cantrip or whatever] + "Gain and play a Ruins from the Supply [or trash?]. At the end of your turn, you may return any number of Ruins cards from play to the Supply in any order." Here you can play Ruins from your hand as well, and then toss them back into the Supply to clear out junk from your deck. I think that alone makes it a little more interesting than Hatter, with fewer tracking issues than Ironmonger, but otherwise it stays faithful to the Archaeologist that was submitted. I don't mean to tweak the card in the middle of the contest; I'm just saying that it can be tweaked, and people would come up with more clever things to do with this. It's definitely in the 'Indulgence' rather than the 'Hinterland' category, and if people like the idea they should vote for it with a clear conscience.
Full disclosure: not my card.
That could work, except you probably wouldn't have Ruins in your hand unless there another looter on the Board. I'd tweak it so that it can play up to 3 Ruins from either the top of the Ruins pile or your hand (and combinations of those), but only lets you return 1 of them. It's kind of unfair to ignore that the other RfB cards are actually a lot closer to the fixed Archaeologist than Archaeologist. Plus, the fixes all seem to detract from the original purpose of Archaeologist.
I think we're just going to get a community designed RtB card that improves on Hatter in the end.
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Thursday's Card:
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Here's a card that has received some discussion, and one I'd like to think more about. I think the card has many interesting facets, and is really weird, but I'm not sure if it's "weird in a bad way" or "weird in a Dark Ages good way". I'm still not sure whether or not to vote for this, so maybe some discussion will help!
Let's consider the two cases: boards where you can gain this, and ones where you cannot. On boards where you can't gain this, is it likely to ever impact the game? Essentially, when you buy it, it will usually give you a $3 card and a $2 card. This will most likely only be useful with strong $2 cards for the board - Chapel and Lighthouse come to mind, but also Hamlet, Courtyard, and Squire. If those aren't around, this will rarely be bought, and if no $2 are present, it will be almost never. However, this could be huge with Chapel, where you could get Chapel and 2 Silvers before the reshuffle. So, Danse Macabre will usually have little effect if it can't be gained, but rarely a decent one. Reminds me a bit of Duchess, I guess?
Ok, now how about games where it can be gained. Here, I worry that this would just stack way too well, especially with Workshop-like cards that can gain a ton of these. 2 Labs is nothing to sneeze at, especially from a card that you can mass easily and use the "wasted action" on another weak card. If this were to win, I could see tweaking the vanilla bonuses -- maybe something like +3 Cards, +2 Actions would be more reasonable? Maybe it's ok as it is. I do like that this can be a counter to Ruins, which is nice.
How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
3 Base
4 Intrigue
0 Seaside
2 Alchemy
3 Prosperity
2 Cornucopia
4 Hinterlands
8 Dark Ages
2 Guilds
1 Promo
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time. That seems pretty low. Note that this doesn't count cards like Jester or Smugglers, which require an opponent to have gained the card before you can. It does count Hermit, which can gain Danse Macabre after a Highway. This seems pretty low, so you definitely want it to be interesting enough when you can't gain it. EDIT: As some have pointed out, this leads to about 75% of games having cards that can gain Danse Macabre. This is much more reasonable.
All in all, I like how different the card is. But, I would advocate for buffing the on-buy bonus (maybe 2 cards costing $3 or less?) and nerfing the on-play slightly. The on-buy just feels too weak to be interesting in the majority of games where you can't gain this.
EDIT: For probability
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Thursday's Card:
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
[...snip...]
Ok, now how about games where it can be gained. Here, I worry that this would just stack way too well, especially with Workshop-like cards that can gain a ton of these. 2 Labs is nothing to sneeze at, especially from a card that you can mass easily and use the "wasted action" on another weak card. If this were to win, I could see tweaking the vanilla bonuses -- maybe something like +3 Cards, +2 Actions would be more reasonable? Maybe it's ok as it is. I do like that this can be a counter to Ruins, which is nice.
[...snip...]
When I first read this, I got confused about your "2 Labs" comment. But then, I thought about it more, and having two of these in your hand is like having two labs in hand. Sometimes, I'm slow like that. I guess I was thinking about the better cases for this card. Implicitly, this wants to make Ruins into companionLabs, which is even better than being a $4 cost card that's 2 Labs when you get two of them. That's quite a powerful defense against Ruins junking. It is probably easy enough to "connect" this with another action in order to make it worth while -- much easier than Tournament-Province or Explorer-Province in many circumstances. But, there is the case where it doesn't hit. Maybe $4 isn't a bad cost.
Anyway, I love the counter to Ruins. Whenever I can just play a counterRuins strategy and win, I love it.
One concern I'd have is that buying all 10 of these would lead to a very short game. Not sure if there's a way to make such a rush optimal, but imagine that Tunnel is on the board. Buy this, gain Tunnel and Estate. OK... that's not likely to be a good strategy, but maybe Oasis on the board. You could gain all the Estates and Oases, and trash all the Danses. Again, not sure it's optimal, but seems like it could be too fast.
Lastly, I don't (usually) like cards that don't let you gain them when you buy them. I'd like for it to be viable to use its effect whenever it is in the kingdom (but maybe not a good idea), but if you have no gainers on the board, I wonder what the point is. So 85% of the time, this card exists in the kingdom and can't be played. That doesn't feel like a way to balance a card, but that's my usual case. Maybe this card is an edge case because, in non-gaining situations, buying it is really like buying two cheaper costed cards (and that's interesting in an alternative Talisman way). With Courtyard in the kingdom, Silver-Courtyard would be a nice pickup with this. You could open Silver-Courtyard-Silver, not bad. So, this trash-on-buy effect has some interesting strategy outside of the card, which I like. Maybe I'm coming around.
This might have been one of the cards I didn't like at first, but I may just vote for it now.
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How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
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How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
Yeah. Schneau, your estimate of 3/20 would be approximately correct if each game had 2 Kingdom card in it instead of 10: Danse Macabre and one other card.
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How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
Uh, yeah, you're right. I hate probability.
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How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
Uh, yeah, you're right. I hate probability.
It's my impression that different kinds of gaining are more or less problematic than others, too.
I just went through the cards that can gain a $4 card without your opponent choosing it and this is the list I come up with. I only have 22 cards, but I'm leaving cards off like Band of Misfits, Hermit, and Dame Natalie because they need help to gain a $4 cost card. It's possible that I've missed some too.
Direct Gainers
Workshop
Ironworks
Armory
---
These seem most problematic, especially Ironworks, as gainers, but they don't comprise most of the gainers as we can see.
Remodelers
Remodel
Upgrade
Expand
Remake
Develop
Procession
Graverobber
Butcher
Governor
-----
These are less problematic in my mind. To get a Danse to use, you'd need to get one of these, then line it up with a card that can be remodeled into a Danse. Then, wait a reshuffle. That takes a while, and seems worth the penalty. Remake might get a bit silly, especially once you have things thinned, Danse-Remake activates.
Feasters
Feast
Catacombs
-----
Same timeline as the remodelers in my mind for Feast. For Catacombs, it will take longer because you need a way to trash it.
Otherers
Haggler
Border Village
Altar
University
Horn of Plenty
Forge
-----
All of these aside from Forge seem to be quick ways to amass a bunch of Danses.
So, I count 9 (the direct gainers + the 5 Otherers + Remake) that concern me on average. Is that easy to achieve? Well, approx. (9)* 9/205... 40% ish of the time having a super viable gainer... not doing the counting this morning. The rest of the time, you could hash something together, but it might not be worth it. That's qualitatively different than 15%, and there's variety in how you'd gain it... so maybe that's interesting too.
Either way, I find that having some context for the type of gaining scheme you'd have to use to get a bunch of these is worthwhile.
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Don't forget Talisman! Not sure which category you want to put it in, though.
(And Forge is totally a remodeler.)
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I would include Band of Misfits. The relevant issue is activating Danse Macabre's on-play effect. While Band of Misfits does not gain Danse Macabre on its own, it can be played as Danse Macabre. And that's what is important.
Also, Rogue can gain Danse Macabre.
What happens if you buy Danse Macabre during a Possession turn? DM never actually "belongs" to someone, but the Possessed player is the one who trashes it, so I think would go to this player's discard pile at the end of the turn, even though it is never formally gained.
Edit: On second thought, Possession refers to "any cards of his that are trashed", so I guess Danse Macabre would just stay in the trash.
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How often can Danse Macabre be gained? How many cards can gain $4 cards? I made a quick look through the expansions, and get the following list (I may have missed a few):
...
That's 29 cards out of 205. I don't know if this is how it works, but it seems like it would be able to be gained in about 3/20 games, or about 15% of the time.
You're a long way out. If your numbers are correct, it's more like 75%.
Uh, yeah, you're right. I hate probability.
It's my impression that different kinds of gaining are more or less problematic than others, too.
I just went through the cards that can gain a $4 card without your opponent choosing it and this is the list I come up with. I only have 22 cards, but I'm leaving cards off like Band of Misfits, Hermit, and Dame Natalie because they need help to gain a $4 cost card. It's possible that I've missed some too.
Direct Gainers
Workshop
Ironworks
Armory
---
These seem most problematic, especially Ironworks, as gainers, but they don't comprise most of the gainers as we can see.
Remodelers
Remodel
Upgrade
Expand
Remake
Develop
Procession
Graverobber
Butcher
Governor
-----
These are less problematic in my mind. To get a Danse to use, you'd need to get one of these, then line it up with a card that can be remodeled into a Danse. Then, wait a reshuffle. That takes a while, and seems worth the penalty. Remake might get a bit silly, especially once you have things thinned, Danse-Remake activates.
Feasters
Feast
Catacombs
-----
Same timeline as the remodelers in my mind for Feast. For Catacombs, it will take longer because you need a way to trash it.
Otherers
Haggler
Border Village
Altar
University
Horn of Plenty
Forge
-----
All of these aside from Forge seem to be quick ways to amass a bunch of Danses.
So, I count 9 (the direct gainers + the 5 Otherers + Remake) that concern me on average. Is that easy to achieve? Well, approx. (9)* 9/205... 40% ish of the time having a super viable gainer... not doing the counting this morning. The rest of the time, you could hash something together, but it might not be worth it. That's qualitatively different than 15%, and there's variety in how you'd gain it... so maybe that's interesting too.
Either way, I find that having some context for the type of gaining scheme you'd have to use to get a bunch of these is worthwhile.
I found a few you missed:
Most concerning: One problematic card that you missed is Stonemason. Hitting $6 for a Stonemason and two DMs seems pretty darn strong. Talisman is also! You'd trash the first one, but gain the second. I definitely think that Band of Misfits should be counted, since it can act like DM easily. Rogue is also pretty easy combo, since DM trashes on-buy.
Less concerning: Someone else mentioned that Swindler and Saboteur are two other cards that can gain DM. Sab is more likely, since it lets you choose what to gain. But, it's not very concerning. Possession isn't concerning, but it's a funny combination, since if your opponent Possesses you and then buys and trashes a DM, they gain the cheaper cards but you gain the DM! Farmland can happen, but not often.
Otherwise, you make good points. But, I think I end up with a different conclusion. The way I see it, DM could be WAY overpowered with cheap gainers like Workshop, Ironworks, and Armory. And, it could be mildly OP with some other gainers. To me, it goes beyond "combo" territory and into "broken interaction" territory. But, that's not to say it's not salvageable -- with some minor tweaks of vanilla bonuses, it could be a very reasonable card.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
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I found a few you missed:
Most concerning: One problematic card that you missed is Stonemason. Hitting $6 for a Stonemason and two DMs seems pretty darn strong. Talisman is also! You'd trash the second one, but gain the first. I definitely think that Band of Misfits should be counted, since it can act like DM easily. Rogue is also pretty easy combo, since DM trashes on-buy.
Less concerning: Someone else mentioned that Swindler and Saboteur are two other cards that can gain DM. Sab is more likely, since it lets you choose what to gain. But, it's not very concerning. Possession isn't concerning, but it's a funny combination, since if your opponent Possesses you and then buys and trashes a DM, they gain the cheaper cards but you gain the DM! Farmland can happen, but not often.
Otherwise, you make good points. But, I think I end up with a different conclusion. The way I see it, DM could be WAY overpowered with cheap gainers like Workshop, Ironworks, and Armory. And, it could be mildly OP with some other gainers. To me, it goes beyond "combo" territory and into "broken interaction" territory. But, that's not to say it's not salvageable -- with some minor tweaks of vanilla bonuses, it could be a very reasonable card.
FTFY
Oh, and I don't think that anyone gets the Danse Macabre when it is purchased on a Possession turn. The Possessed player buys it and then trashes it before he would gain it. Also, it is not yet his card, so Possession does not set it aside from the trash.
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Oh, and I don't think that anyone gets the Danse Macabre when it is purchased on a Possession turn. The Possessed player buys it and then trashes it before he would gain it. Also, it is not yet his card, so Possession does not set it aside from the trash.
I lean towards your interpretation, but I think this is a rules clarification that can't be settled with the official rules. Possession says "any cards of his that are trashed." "Of his" is not a clearly defined term in Dominion as far as I know. Is a card that he bought, but hasn't yet gained, "his"? One could easily argue either way. Pretty sure Possession is the only card to say "cards of his", and it never matters in the official cards exactly when it becomes "his."
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
In general, it wouldn't make such a big difference. But this particular card, Danse Macabre, is a $4 nonterminal Hunting Grounds. These will let you draw your whole deck quite regularly, so you'll eventually pick up those payload Actions you discarded. If Danse Macabre were, say, an Attack instead of a drawer, then you'd be right.
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Oh, and I don't think that anyone gets the Danse Macabre when it is purchased on a Possession turn. The Possessed player buys it and then trashes it before he would gain it. Also, it is not yet his card, so Possession does not set it aside from the trash.
I lean towards your interpretation, but I think this is a rules clarification that can't be settled with the official rules. Possession says "any cards of his that are trashed." "Of his" is not a clearly defined term in Dominion as far as I know. Is a card that he bought, but hasn't yet gained, "his"? One could easily argue either way. Pretty sure Possession is the only card to say "cards of his", and it never matters in the official cards exactly when it becomes "his."
Almost surely not, since I buy plenty of cards which I then reveal a Trader to not gain. I don't think there is any reasonable sense in which that Mint I bought is mine when I gained a Silver instead.
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I don't think there is any reasonable sense in which that Mint I bought is mine
It could happen if you misread the card.
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I don't think there is any reasonable sense in which that Mint I bought is mine
It could happen if you misread the card.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I clearly chose my example due to the practical on-buy effect, and not as some sort of stealth joke.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
I think I have to agree with SirPeebles on this one. Even if the card was nerfed in its vanilla bonuses, being able to draw actions again is really powerful. I'd also like to point out that the wording as is creates some interesting interactions with Horn of Plenty, Conspirator, and maybe a couple of other cards I can't think of right now. Actually, now that I think this through, maybe the remaining in play is a more powerful option...it's really hard to say without playtesting.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
Sure, but "playing it for none of its effects" is so inelegant.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
Sure, but "playing it for none of its effects" is so inelegant.
That I agree with. It is also confusing. If you "play" an Attack, does it trigger Moats? Does it trigger Urchins? Does it count towards Conspirator or Peddler? Can you top deck it with Scheme? Do the "While in play" effects count?
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
You make a good point... how about "set aside another action card from your hand.... at the end of your turn, discard all actions set aside this way." Maybe a few more total words than "Play an Action from your hand for none of its effects", but a lot cleaner.
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Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
If you never use your Spoils, each Stronghold adds 4 dead cards to your deck. IIRC there are 15 Spoils total, so it can be worth up to 7VP. Seems like you'd stall pretty quickly if you tried to make Stronghold worth anything significant. This seems like it would be better used just for some quick cash injection, and then the Stronghold can be fodder for TfB. The VP might be nice near the end of the game if you can quickly gain 2 or more Strongholds, making each Stronghold a Duchy or better. It does other interesting things to end game Duchy dancing, in that you can grab Strongholds for potential VP as well as adding economy to your deck to give you a better chance of grabbing that last Province.
I really like this. There is a surprising amount of strategy packed into a very simple card.
I want to discuss this card a bit more. Almost everyone seems to have dismissed it. The issue that people are bringing up is that it turns Spoils into dead cards. But I can think of plenty of ways that Stronghold is useful. There will certainly be times when you need an economic boost, where 3 Spoils and a dead card are better than just 1 Gold -- particularly in the end game when you're not likely to see that Gold more than once anyway. Stronghold itself can be given over to TfB.
It's also interesting during end game Duchy dancing. Instead of getting a Duchy, maybe you grab a Stronghold to greatly improve your Province-buying ability. With various Spoils-gainers, you can maintain the number of Spoils in your deck so that Stronghold is still worth points.
Then there may be games where you can play a Stronghold-specific strategy, aiming to mega-turn and get a bunch of them at once. A single Stronghold is just 1VP, but the second one makes them 3VP each, the third 4VP each, the fourth 6VP each (unless the Spoils run out, of course). And even if you aim to get VP out of Stronghold, you can still use your Spoils because you can gain them back with future Stronghold purchases.
If it really is too weak, a simple price adjustment might be all that is needed. Make it cost $5. But here's something to consider -- with $6, you can buy Masterpiece and get 3 Silvers. This gives Stronghold and 3 Spoils. That's actually pretty close on par, I think. Spoils and Silver are very roughly on par, and I think the potential VP and higher value for TfB make Stronghold itself better than Masterpiece, which is just a $3 Copper.
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"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
You make a good point... how about "set aside another action card from your hand.... at the end of your turn, discard all actions set aside this way." Maybe a few more total words than "Play an Action from your hand for none of its effects", but a lot cleaner.
Oh c'mon. ::)
Okay, I get why you can't discard the action. But what's wrong with "You may set an Action aside . . . discard it at the end of your turn."? Also, this is pretty much better than Palanquin at a cheaper cost, especially if there are Ruins about. I'm not sure the inability to buy it is a strong enough restriction. Maybe push it up to $5, so you can't Workshop them or Remodel Estates.
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If it really is too weak, a simple price adjustment might be all that is needed. Make it cost $5. But here's something to consider -- with $6, you can buy Masterpiece and get 3 Silvers. This gives Stronghold and 3 Spoils. That's actually pretty close on par, I think. Spoils and Silver are very roughly on par, and I think the potential VP and higher value for TfB make Stronghold itself better than Masterpiece, which is just a $3 Copper.
I feel like this comparison is too rough to be meaningful anyway, but even if it's not, it still doesn't work. I thought that people generally say Gold is preferable to Masterpiece at $6, so if Stronghold is supposed to be roughly equal to a $6 Masterpiece, then it's worse than Gold. The whole point of Masterpiece is that the benefit scales with the price. If Masterpiece was just a $6 Copper that said "When you buy this, gain three Silvers", it would be a pretty bad card, so you're not doing much to convince me of the power level of Stronghold by comparing it to that.
Anyway, I think my main issue with Stronghold is not that it's weak, just that it doesn't feel exciting to me. In most games I expect you just get it for 3 Spoils. Pillage already gives us the one-shot Spoils-gainer aspect, and I doubt the victory points amount to much in most games.
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Most concerning: One problematic card that you missed is Stonemason. Hitting $6 for a Stonemason and two DMs seems pretty darn strong. Talisman is also! You'd trash the first one, but gain the second. I definitely think that Band of Misfits should be counted, since it can act like DM easily. Rogue is also pretty easy combo, since DM trashes on-buy.
I knew I had missed some, and I was thinking about how strong Stonemason's interaction would be. Rogue is a pretty easy combo, but you do have to wait for it for a while. Good point on BoM.
Otherwise, you make good points. But, I think I end up with a different conclusion. The way I see it, DM could be WAY overpowered with cheap gainers like Workshop, Ironworks, and Armory. And, it could be mildly OP with some other gainers. To me, it goes beyond "combo" territory and into "broken interaction" territory. But, that's not to say it's not salvageable -- with some minor tweaks of vanilla bonuses, it could be a very reasonable card.
I think we reach the same conclusion. Not sure if I expressed like this anywhere, but this is exactly my sentiment.
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Anyway, I think my main issue with Stronghold is not that it's weak, just that it doesn't feel exciting to me. In most games I expect you just get it for 3 Spoils. Pillage already gives us the one-shot Spoils-gainer aspect, and I doubt the victory points amount to much in most games.
A possibility is to up the points-to-Spoils ratio? That might make it overpowered with Bandit Camp, but more than Feodum is overpowered with Masterpiece? I dunno.
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Possession says "any cards of his that are trashed." "Of his" is not a clearly defined term in Dominion as far as I know. Is a card that he bought, but hasn't yet gained, "his"? One could easily argue either way. Pretty sure Possession is the only card to say "cards of his", and it never matters in the official cards exactly when it becomes "his."
Market Square, I think? Presumably worded that way just-in-case Donald ever wrote a card that allows you to trash from the supply, so you couldn't use that just to activate your Market Squares.
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If it really is too weak, a simple price adjustment might be all that is needed. Make it cost $5. But here's something to consider -- with $6, you can buy Masterpiece and get 3 Silvers. This gives Stronghold and 3 Spoils. That's actually pretty close on par, I think. Spoils and Silver are very roughly on par, and I think the potential VP and higher value for TfB make Stronghold itself better than Masterpiece, which is just a $3 Copper.
I feel like this comparison is too rough to be meaningful anyway, but even if it's not, it still doesn't work. I thought that people generally say Gold is preferable to Masterpiece at $6, so if Stronghold is supposed to be roughly equal to a $6 Masterpiece, then it's worse than Gold. The whole point of Masterpiece is that the benefit scales with the price. If Masterpiece was just a $6 Copper that said "When you buy this, gain three Silvers", it would be a pretty bad card, so you're not doing much to convince me of the power level of Stronghold by comparing it to that.
Anyway, I think my main issue with Stronghold is not that it's weak, just that it doesn't feel exciting to me. In most games I expect you just get it for 3 Spoils. Pillage already gives us the one-shot Spoils-gainer aspect, and I doubt the victory points amount to much in most games.
My point was not to say that the card is powerful. People tend to favour cards that are strong and dismiss cards that are weak, as well as shooting down cards that are too strong or too weak. The first two are bad ways to find interesting cards and the latter two are inappropriate for this particular contest, where we should vote with the understanding that cards will be tweaked. My point was simply that the card is reasonable.
As far as "interesting" goes, I think that's mostly a matter of personal taste. I find Stronghold quite interesting because I do think it can have an impact on end game decisions in a way that other cards do not. The closest is probably Harem. Only 2VP, but could the Silver make a difference? Would you be better served buying Gold or Duchy rather than taking the middle ground? I think Stronghold creates a similar decision for players. The feel is still different though -- the economy boost is bigger but short-lived, whereas the points are lower but with greater potential.
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If it really is too weak, a simple price adjustment might be all that is needed. Make it cost $5. But here's something to consider -- with $6, you can buy Masterpiece and get 3 Silvers. This gives Stronghold and 3 Spoils. That's actually pretty close on par, I think. Spoils and Silver are very roughly on par, and I think the potential VP and higher value for TfB make Stronghold itself better than Masterpiece, which is just a $3 Copper.
I feel like this comparison is too rough to be meaningful anyway, but even if it's not, it still doesn't work. I thought that people generally say Gold is preferable to Masterpiece at $6, so if Stronghold is supposed to be roughly equal to a $6 Masterpiece, then it's worse than Gold. The whole point of Masterpiece is that the benefit scales with the price. If Masterpiece was just a $6 Copper that said "When you buy this, gain three Silvers", it would be a pretty bad card, so you're not doing much to convince me of the power level of Stronghold by comparing it to that.
Anyway, I think my main issue with Stronghold is not that it's weak, just that it doesn't feel exciting to me. In most games I expect you just get it for 3 Spoils. Pillage already gives us the one-shot Spoils-gainer aspect, and I doubt the victory points amount to much in most games.
My point was not to say that the card is powerful. People tend to favour cards that are strong and dismiss cards that are weak, as well as shooting down cards that are too strong or too weak. The first two are bad ways to find interesting cards and the latter two are inappropriate for this particular contest, where we should vote with the understanding that cards will be tweaked. My point was simply that the card is reasonable.
As far as "interesting" goes, I think that's mostly a matter of personal taste. I find Stronghold quite interesting because I do think it can have an impact on end game decisions in a way that other cards do not. The closest is probably Harem. Only 2VP, but could the Silver make a difference? Would you be better served buying Gold or Duchy rather than taking the middle ground? I think Stronghold creates a similar decision for players. The feel is still different though -- the economy boost is bigger but short-lived, whereas the points are lower but with greater potential.
I definitely agree that weak cards can be good, my point was just that your comparison didn't show that Stronghold wasn't too weak. I suspect that it is fine balance-wise, but not because of the comparison to Masterpiece.
And yes, personal taste is a huge component of "interesting", but there is some objectivity in it as well. I just wanted to try to point to why I personally don't find Stronghold to be exciting.
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Possession says "any cards of his that are trashed." "Of his" is not a clearly defined term in Dominion as far as I know. Is a card that he bought, but hasn't yet gained, "his"? One could easily argue either way. Pretty sure Possession is the only card to say "cards of his", and it never matters in the official cards exactly when it becomes "his."
Market Square, I think? Presumably worded that way just-in-case Donald ever wrote a card that allows you to trash from the supply, so you couldn't use that just to activate your Market Squares.
Market Square says "your cards" so that it doesn't activate when opponents trash their cards.
Now, it is also true, as far as I can remember, that the only way any of my cards ever get trashed is if I trash them. So in that sense, Donald could have said "when you trash a card". I think one reason he would have avoided this is because many players mistakenly interpret trashing attacks as one player trashing another player's card. So a player would attack with Saboteur and then try to reveal Market Square. But with Market Square specifying "your card" it makes those scenarios easier to parse for casual players.
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And now for something completely different - reviews by category!
This time, "VP for cards in trash".
Cultivate
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Choose one: Trash a Victory card from your hand and gain a Treasure card costing up to $1 more; or trash a Treasure card from your hand and gain a Victory card costing up to $2 more.
This is worth 3 VP if there are at least 4 differently named Victory cards in the trash; otherwise it's worth 1 VP.
So, mainly it's designed to turn Estates into Silvers into Duchies (or more Cultivates) into Gold into Provinces, so it's a cross between Rebuild, Remodel and Upgrade. It's not quite as overpowered as Rebuild, but still probably ok at the $5 mark. However, for it to be worth much in your deck, there need to be 4 different Victory cards in the trash, which in most non-DA games will be this+Estate+Duchy+Province which it's probably not going to be worth doing, and in most DA games will be this+Estate+Duchy+Overgrown Estate, but trashing OE to this will net you a Copper which is just going to be counterproductive. Even with the numbers tweaked, I think this is not that great.
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Doesn't need the "other than" clause. Has a very slight "original Duke" problem in that the more of them you buy, the more each of them will be worth, although the exponential growth of that is curtailed by the trashing of Action cards and the restriction of differently named. Will be nice in a Looter game, combos madly with Death Cart. But without another trasher, this might be occasionally nice to get some of the early-game Actions out of your deck in exchange for what will effectively be a Duchy, but otherwise quite weak.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
Can only gain cheap cards from the trash, counter to Graverobber and Rogue, which will probably not be hugely useful (maybe if the total cost were tweaked). Will presumably mostly be used to try to game the point value of itself - so if you lose the Junkyard split, you sacrifice one of yours to make someone else's worth a point less? Still, in an Estate game it will probably scale poorly with number of players, and in a Shelters game it's still probably of marginal use (slight trick of buying it to trash Hovel, then playing it to trash Overgrown Estate). Possibly the best of a mediocre lot.
Clearly one of the things that people expected from DA was a victory card that scaled with cards in the trash, but just as clearly Donald couldn't make it work and the combined minds of f.DS aren't doing that much better. I still think there's a possibility there, but we're still not hitting the mark yet.
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Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
I really like the concept of this card. I would want it to cost $2 if it won, but I like its interaction with junkers, workshop variants, and remodel variants. As far as DA goes, I think this would be fun with Armory, Procession, and especially Rats.
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Given the volume of submissions in this contest and people complaining about being unable to really give them all enough thought, and especially playtesting, to have an informed opinion, I was thinking that perhaps the next time someone does this they should have a preliminary round in which people vote for the cards they think have the coolest ideas that could be balanced and interesting after playtesting and tweaking. Then the the top ten(?) from this round could be further examined, discussed, and playtested by the community with the focus only on these cards. Tweaks could happen during this time. Finally, people could vote again to determine a winner that would already have proven itself. This seems like a better way to make sure that the winner is a truly interesting and vetted card.
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Reviews by category 2 - Ruins for Benefit:
In this category, I am including any card that directly tries to make it desirable to collect or otherwise use Ruins (e.g. by playing them multiple times or playing the top Ruins), but also cards that seem designed to combo well with Ruins without naming them (e.g. wanting a large number/variety of Action cards, or cards that cost less than a small amount). Also, in each category, I will skip over any cards reviewed for a prior category.
Junkyard (A)
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Action. You may gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. Discard any number of cards. +1 Card per card discarded. +1 Card per Action card discarded. You may trash this.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
So it's like a Cellar, but turns into a Lab for every Action card you chuck, and lets you boost it by taking a Ruins. Almost certainly overpowered, especially in a decently thinned deck in which case it's comparable to Scrying Pool.
Robber Baron
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
You may discard a Ruins. If you do, +$3 and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand. Otherwise, gain a Ruins.
When you gain this, gain 2 Ruins.
It takes the principle of Baron, but works on Ruins and has an attack instead of a buy. Cute idea, but I don't know how it would work in practice.
King of the Slums
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
Look at the top 3 cards of the Ruins pile. Gain any number of them, putting them into your hand. Put the rest back in any order. Choose up to 3 Ruins from your hand. Play the first one three times, the second one twice, and the third one once.
A bit too complicated. I think it would be better to make it just Throne Room all three Ruins, and even then you're very much at the mercy of the order of the pile. Also probably needs a means of getting rid of Ruins when you really don't want them any more, otherwise you're going to have far too many of them in your deck. (Also, "Slumlord" is a much more efficient name.)
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Like the previous, way too dependent on the order of Ruins, even if it has the ability to adjust them. And then if you do, the tracking could become a nightmare. But the idea that with this in play, every Market Square becomes a Market, or every Village an activated City, or every Smithy a Village/Smithy combo? Scarily powerful. This is one of those ideas that I *want* to work, and I have a half-idea about how to do so which is not quite as crazy as this but still slightly so, but I don't think it can every really work as intended.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Actually, this is not too bad, although I *think* that it may be possible to create an infinite (or at least annoyingly large and hard to track) loop with these somehow. Also, it needs some clarification on two points: first, do you (play 2 cards) then (trash the 2 cards), or do you (play and then trash) 2 cards; second, is the cost restriction per-card or total?
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
I ... think this works, although as far as self-upgrading cards go it's not quite as great as Madman or Mercenary. Self-comboes reasonably decently, and also self-counters to some small extent.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Eh. Kind of cute in that once you've picked up a couple of Ruined Markets it can keep getting more of itself. Also, a hand of these and a Watchtower would be a terrifying experience. I don't mind this.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Terrible name. Interesting effect. Probably a little too weak to work though - in order to be particuarly useful, you have to really flood your deck with junk.
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
In a similar vein to Raid, but again with a pretty dodgy name. The second choice is a bit odd - clearly the aim is to let you play the Ruins before trashing them, as well as trashing a bunch of random junk. I think it's ok, although I feel like there's a powerful combo that I'm missing.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
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Similar to Garderobe. Probably about as ok as it too. More useful when there's an Attack/Looter around though.
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If I had my druthers, it would look like [cantrip or whatever] + "Gain and play a Ruins from the Supply [or trash?]. At the end of your turn, you may return any number of Ruins cards from play to the Supply in any order." Here you can play Ruins from your hand as well, and then toss them back into the Supply to clear out junk from your deck. I think that alone makes it a little more interesting than Hatter, with fewer tracking issues than Ironmonger, but otherwise it stays faithful to the Archaeologist that was submitted. I don't mean to tweak the card in the middle of the contest; I'm just saying that it can be tweaked, and people would come up with more clever things to do with this. It's definitely in the 'Indulgence' rather than the 'Hinterland' category, and if people like the idea they should vote for it with a clear conscience.
That could work, except you probably wouldn't have Ruins in your hand unless there another looter on the Board. I'd tweak it so that it can play up to 3 Ruins from either the top of the Ruins pile or your hand (and combinations of those), but only lets you return 1 of them. It's kind of unfair to ignore that the other RfB cards are actually a lot closer to the fixed Archaeologist than Archaeologist. Plus, the fixes all seem to detract from the original purpose of Archaeologist.
Now that you mention that, it looks like more like Mendicant now than anything. I may not be a very good tweaker.
I think we're just going to get a community designed RfB card that improves on Hatter in the end.
That would make me very happy, actually. From the secret history, I get the impression that DXV had a card like that in mind when he created the Ruins. If we come out of this contest with a card that makes Ruined Village feel mechanically different from a Confusion, I'll consider this a success.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Okay, this guy actually isn't RfB, but I was going to say something about it anyway. I like it, and I think the cost is appropriate (comparable to a Throne Room with some severe restrictions). I like it, but I'm leery of the tracking issues. I have trouble keeping track of my coins when playing a lot of Ironworks, and here you have to keep track of coins, buys, number of Bridges played &c. without any reference to look at.
Because of the cost restriction, you have an incentive to use cheap cards, and to keep your cards from being stolen you have an incentive to play them in multiples. That means you want a deck with quite a few Raids, and that means the most attractive target for your Raid could easily be other Raids. With a '. . . from your hand other than Raid' clause, it's probably too weak. Without one, it has the same binary tree issues as a Golem that can Golem other Golems. Probably even worse than that, since Raid plays cards when trashing and retrieving.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
This one is also in the Death Cart vein, so I'm personally not that interested in it. I am curious as to why it needs to be upgraded from something else, especially when the base card can be upgraded the first time you play it, with less opportunity cost than Hermit. It's easy to see why Mercenary and Madman can't be Kingdom cards, but if you added some Ruins-gaining to Mob Boss, the base card is unnecessary.
Given the volume of submissions in this contest and people complaining about being unable to really give them all enough thought, and especially playtesting, to have an informed opinion, I was thinking that perhaps the next time someone does this they should have a preliminary round in which people vote for the cards they think have the coolest ideas that could be balanced and interesting after playtesting and tweaking. Then the the top ten(?) from this round could be further examined, discussed, and playtested by the community with the focus only on these cards. Tweaks could happen during this time. Finally, people could vote again to determine the winner that would already have proven itself. This seems like a better way to make sure that the winner is a truly interested and vetted card.
We have an entire week to playtest. If no one's going to do it in one week, I doubt they'll do it in two. That preliminary round is happening right now, informally. The cards that have the coolest ideas are the cards that are getting talked about the most, and if someone thinks a card is underappreciated, they type up a paragraph or two and post it. I'm also worried about the bias towards safe cards, but I don't think the solution is to double the amount of work LFN has to do. (Of course, the safest card this week is Mortuary, so that's pretty dope.)
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"Play an Action from your hand for non of its effects" seems like unnecessary wording confusion. Why not simply "You may discard an action card. If you do.." Very slightly more powerful, because you have a chance of drawing that action card again, but I doubt that would make the difference between balanced and overpowered.
I strongly agree and I suggested this change to the card's author before the ballot was posted. No dice.
But a a big drawer, having to "play" another action is actually a significant check to its power.
You make a good point... how about "set aside another action card from your hand.... at the end of your turn, discard all actions set aside this way." Maybe a few more total words than "Play an Action from your hand for none of its effects", but a lot cleaner.
Oh c'mon. ::)
Okay, I get why you can't discard the action. But what's wrong with "You may set an Action aside . . . discard it at the end of your turn."? Also, this is pretty much better than Palanquin at a cheaper cost, especially if there are Ruins about. I'm not sure the inability to buy it is a strong enough restriction. Maybe push it up to $5, so you can't Workshop them or Remodel Estates.
Hey I'm not about to read through 10 pages of replies just to make sure my thoughts are unique! But I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in thinking that way. I think it would be a good improvement to the card. Also a tiny bit of a nerf, as it will combo less with Scheme, Horn of Plenty, Peddler, and Conspirator.
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General comments about all the cards:
I'm not a big fan of counting the trash, or Ruins for benefit. I don't know, it just doesn't seem that interesting to me? It's so hard to make a trash counter work nicely, by design you need some reason to pick it up, and somehow the ways in which people have done that feel so clunky. The ruins for benefit cards have been more interesting, but it's such a nightmare to make it actually work balance wise. I'm thinking, if I were to actually play this card, do I feel accomplished when I make it work, and is the fun I'm getting out of the effect worth it when balanced out with knowing I'm hurting my deck? Somehow very few of the cards have made me feel good in that way.
Secondly, it might just be me, but there's so much complexity everywhere. I know it's Dark Ages, it's to be expected, but still. I call it the Procession problem. What you're doing works mechanically, you can tell there was a reason, but it still feels like a lot of effects tossed together. I think the real issue is that Dark Ages is very synergistic, which makes evaluating an extra card that is to be tossed in a lot harder. In DA it's okay for a card to be a somewhat dud if it contributes; in a fan contest the card needs to pull its own weight.
Anyways. That's the long version of why I feel like the cards in this contest aren't as good as previous rounds. Not because people are designing worse, but because Dark Ages is a really hard set to design well. It breaks all the rules, so it's a lot easier to go over a rule you shouldn't...
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Anyways. That's the long version of why I feel like the cards in this contest aren't as good as previous rounds. Not because people are designing worse, but because Dark Ages is a really hard set to design well. It breaks all the rules, so it's a lot easier to go over a rule you shouldn't...
This is very true. One thing I've noticed with many of these cards is that they either don't work really well with either Shelters or Ruins in the mix, or they *only* work well with them, and while you can argue for non-DA cards to be fairly Shelter/Ruin-agnostic, a card designed to be part of Dark Ages needs to take both sides into account.
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Anyways. That's the long version of why I feel like the cards in this contest aren't as good as previous rounds. Not because people are designing worse, but because Dark Ages is a really hard set to design well. It breaks all the rules, so it's a lot easier to go over a rule you shouldn't...
This is very true. One thing I've noticed with many of these cards is that they either don't work really well with either Shelters or Ruins in the mix, or they *only* work well with them, and while you can argue for non-DA cards to be fairly Shelter/Ruin-agnostic, a card designed to be part of Dark Ages needs to take both sides into account.
Ooh. Just noticed that Bricklayer is a beast of an opening buy in a Shelters game. I certainly don't think it's broken, but you make a good point.
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Anyways. That's the long version of why I feel like the cards in this contest aren't as good as previous rounds. Not because people are designing worse, but because Dark Ages is a really hard set to design well. It breaks all the rules, so it's a lot easier to go over a rule you shouldn't...
This is very true. One thing I've noticed with many of these cards is that they either don't work really well with either Shelters or Ruins in the mix, or they *only* work well with them, and while you can argue for non-DA cards to be fairly Shelter/Ruin-agnostic, a card designed to be part of Dark Ages needs to take both sides into account.
Ooh. Just noticed that Bricklayer is a beast of an opening buy in a Shelters game. I certainly don't think it's broken, but you make a good point.
It's not broken but it has so much more variance in a Shelters game that I'm not sure it can work nicely. Chapel, Steward, and Remake all have opening variance, but you always trash/upgrade 2 cards. If Bricklayer hits 3 or more cards, it's so much better, because you've both trashed your Shelters and drawn some Coppers. I like the idea a lot, but I don't think it's easily fixable.
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And now for something completely different - reviews by category!
This time, "VP for cards in trash".
Cemetery
Types: Victory
Cost: $5
Worth 2 VP plus 1 VP for every 2 differently named Action cards in the trash.
When you gain this, trash a card from your hand other than a Cemetery.
Doesn't need the "other than" clause. Has a very slight "original Duke" problem in that the more of them you buy, the more each of them will be worth, although the exponential growth of that is curtailed by the trashing of Action cards and the restriction of differently named. Will be nice in a Looter game, combos madly with Death Cart. But without another trasher, this might be occasionally nice to get some of the early-game Actions out of your deck in exchange for what will effectively be a Duchy, but otherwise quite weak.
Quadratic growth, not exponential. There really is a tremendous difference.
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Quadratic growth, not exponential. There really is a tremendous difference.
In the limit, sure. At these scales ... yeah still probably enough that I spoke terribly wrongly. As someone who normally prides himself of using accurate terminology in cases such as this, mea culpa.
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Given the volume of submissions in this contest and people complaining about being unable to really give them all enough thought, and especially playtesting, to have an informed opinion, I was thinking that perhaps the next time someone does this they should have a preliminary round in which people vote for the cards they think have the coolest ideas that could be balanced and interesting after playtesting and tweaking. Then the the top ten(?) from this round could be further examined, discussed, and playtested by the community with the focus only on these cards. Tweaks could happen during this time. Finally, people could vote again to determine the winner that would already have proven itself. This seems like a better way to make sure that the winner is a truly interested and vetted card.
We have an entire week to playtest. If no one's going to do it in one week, I doubt they'll do it in two. That preliminary round is happening right now, informally. The cards that have the coolest ideas are the cards that are getting talked about the most, and if someone thinks a card is underappreciated, they type up a paragraph or two and post it. I'm also worried about the bias towards safe cards, but I don't think the solution is to double the amount of work LFN has to do. (Of course, the safest card this week is Mortuary, so that's pretty dope.)
Yeah, most of us don't have time to playtest our favourites. Even if we do, we might get the feeling that we're being unfair to all the cards we didn't playtest. Making the contests 2 weeks long can solve some of those issues, but it just makes the contest drag, doubling its length. This setup seems alright for now.
As a side note, I wouldn't consider Mortuary the safest card on the ballot. It looks like a simple, 1 card non-terminal trasher, but its "while in play" clause can provide you with additional card draw if you trash cards later on in your turn. That will often be from other Mortuaries, yes, but with the right mix of DA cards things might get pretty crazy. Heck, just playing a Pillage makes it give you card draw. It depends on the board in a really DA kind of way.
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Here is the second half !
First half is on page 8. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9360.175)
Astral Conqueror
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player gains a Curse and a Ruins Each other player gains a Spoils from the Spoils pile. This cannot cause a player to gain the last Curse or Ruins in the Supply.
Woow ! You give'em many cards ! Too many, according to me !
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I miss the point of the action part, except it looks much like "trash a card from the supply and put card from your hand on top of your deck". OK, it may change dead Sea hags and cursers into something... but let's hope it's not a victory card because topdeck !
And the reaction is too specific.
Junkyard (B)
Types: Action Victory
Cost: $5
Choose one: Trash a card from your hand; gain up to 2 cards from the trash with a total cost of up to $5 and trash this.
Worth 1 VP for every 3 Victory cards in the trash.
You need 6 victory cards in the trash (starting estates at 2 players) to make it worth 2 points ? No !
In fact, I don't really like victory cards depending on things in the trash.
Alehouse
Types: Action
Cost: $3
When you trash a card this turn, +1 Action, discard a card, +1 Card, and you may gain a card costing less than the trashed card. Trash a card from your hand or from play.
Wordy, but fun. What if you stock several of them ? Do you gain several times the bonuses ? And do you gain several cards ?
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
Funny name. And nice card, too. Looks like ambassador (I trash, you're junked) but is original and not too complicated.
Junkyard (C)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it, putting it into your hand.
When you trash this, trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing exactly $1 less than it.
Not sure about the action part, which still seems legit to me.
But about the on-trash part, you shouldn't be forced to trash.
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
A Salvager/Apprentice choice with +buy/+action remplaced by an interesting reaction. I think I like this !
Iron Maiden
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
Hey, interesting, too bad I don't like the idea of gaining copper into hand for opponent. Maybe I'll vote for this, though.
Satan's Workshop
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a card costing up to the number of Fire tokens in your Satan Pit. Each other player may reveal a hand with 2 or fewer Treasures. If nobody does, put a Fire token in your Satan Pit. Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.
When you would trash this, set it aside. If you do, at the beginning of your next Buy phase, +1 Buy, +$1 per token in your Satan Pit, and put this into the trash.
Setup: Each player puts 2 Fire tokens in his Satan Pit.
I guess the attack part is "Each other player gains a Copper, putting it into his hand.", right ?
It's really hard to get it boosted to 5 Fire tokens and making it interesting. Just look at Pirate Ship, which is hard to boost, too.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Pure reaction ? I'm afraid it's bad way to go.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
I don't know how the actionpart looks like (trashing a copper may be either bad or good) so I agree with it.
The "you may trash this. If you do..." part has too many conditions !
Archaeologist
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. You may trash the top card of the Ruins pile.
While this card is in play, when you play an Action card, play a copy of the top card of the Ruins pile.
Hey, classical !
Not sure how it would work.
But trashing from the supply and using the top cards of the ruins are usually said to be bad ideas...
Stronghold
Types: Victory
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils from the Spoils pile.
So you gain 3 spoils you don't even use. Nope.
Garrison
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand. For each $2 that it costs (rounded down), gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
When a player trashes a card, you may reveal this from your hand and gain the trashed card. If you do, discard this.
Clarification: If multiple players reveal a Garrison, the Garrison of the player who trashed the card gets resolved first, the other players follow in turn order. Later players can't gain the card due to losing track; Garrison can only gain the card if it is still in the trash.
With the action part only, I think I would like this. (fine for starting estates, but who would trash a gold into 3 spoils ?)
I dislike the reaction part, as I dislike every card that allows to steal cards to opponent.
Raid
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $3
Choose one: Play and trash up to 2 Action cards from your hand; or gain any number of Action cards from the trash costing up to $3 and play them in any order.
When you trash this, each other player gains a Ruins.
Action part is really worse than Village (except it may trash ruins) and on-trash part is boring. Would you buy this just to trash it ?
Surveyor
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action. You may trash a Victory card from your hand. If you do, gain two Treasures each costing exactly $1 more than it, putting one on top of your deck.
When another player buys a Victory card, you may set this aside from your hand. If you do, at the start of your next turn, return this to your hand and gain an Estate, putting it into your hand.
Hey, at least a "victory into treasure" I like, even though it looks much stronger than trader (not terminal, and...) ! Should be $5 maybe.
The rection part is interesting too, because it grants you silver.
Okay !
Smelter (B)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an
Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
EDIT: If you trash a Victory card with Smelter, it gives you +2 Cards, not +1 Card.
Simple, and fine. I think I like this.
Condottiero
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Buys. +$2. Each player (including you) may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles. Each other player gains a Ruins.
When you trash this, look through your discard pile. You may trash up to 2 cards from your discard pile or hand.
Clarification: Each other player gaining a Ruins is not contingent on whether or not he discards; it just always happens after the discard and shuffling effects.
Interacting action is weird.
The vanilla bonus + the attack together are fine.
I like the on-trash effect. Maybe it makes too many words.
Angry Mob
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Each player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
While this is in play, when you buy a Ruins, you may trash this. If you do, gain a Mob Boss from the Mob Boss pile.
Mob Boss
Types: Action
Cost: $0*
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. For each Ruins revealed, +1 Card and +$1. You may return a Ruins from your hand to the Supply. If you do, +1 Action. (This is not in the Supply.)
I dislike the idea of buying ruins !
Charter (B)
Types: Treasure Attack Looter
Cost: $5
Worth $2. When you play this, each other player gains a Ruins, putting it into his hand.
Non-terminal junker, too much strong !
Even though I wish there were more "treasure attacks", they should be more calculated. Maybe "You may discrd a treasure. If you do, <opponents are junked>"
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Here it is, the famous Danse Macabre !
I have nothing to say, except it's too weird to me to vote for it.
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
Another French name !
Auto-junkers are always regarded as bad, and I don't think this one is finer.
Drug
Types: Action Victory Looter
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. +$1. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Card. You may gain a Ruins. If you do, +1 Action.
Worth 3 VP if every other player has fewer Ruins than you.
Nice name.
And I think I would be able to buy this... with other looters in play. Otherwise it looks like an expensive Peddler.
Street Sweeper
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. +1 Action. Trash a card.
When you trash this, gain a Ruins.
Really too strong ! Just compare it to Spice Merchant !
Blood Feud
Types:
Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
Choose one: +1 Action, +$1, and each player (including you) gains a Ruins, putting it in his hand; or reveal up to 3 cards from your hand, play the revealed Action cards in any order, then trash all the revealed cards.
Another auto-junker. It's *yawn* boring...
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
EDIT: Added "+2 Cards." to Barrister.
I like Barrister (better noble brigand), but I dislike Claim.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
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Auto-junker ? Hey, why ?
This one isn't better than the others.
Now I've finished.
Sorry, but I really dislike auto-junkers.
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Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
If you never use your Spoils, each Stronghold adds 4 dead cards to your deck. IIRC there are 15 Spoils total, so it can be worth up to 7VP. Seems like you'd stall pretty quickly if you tried to make Stronghold worth anything significant. This seems like it would be better used just for some quick cash injection, and then the Stronghold can be fodder for TfB. The VP might be nice near the end of the game if you can quickly gain 2 or more Strongholds, making each Stronghold a Duchy or better. It does other interesting things to end game Duchy dancing, in that you can grab Strongholds for potential VP as well as adding economy to your deck to give you a better chance of grabbing that last Province.
I really like this. There is a surprising amount of strategy packed into a very simple card.
I want to discuss this card a bit more. Almost everyone seems to have dismissed it. The issue that people are bringing up is that it turns Spoils into dead cards. But I can think of plenty of ways that Stronghold is useful. There will certainly be times when you need an economic boost, where 3 Spoils and a dead card are better than just 1 Gold -- particularly in the end game when you're not likely to see that Gold more than once anyway. Stronghold itself can be given over to TfB.
It's also interesting during end game Duchy dancing. Instead of getting a Duchy, maybe you grab a Stronghold to greatly improve your Province-buying ability. With various Spoils-gainers, you can maintain the number of Spoils in your deck so that Stronghold is still worth points.
Then there may be games where you can play a Stronghold-specific strategy, aiming to mega-turn and get a bunch of them at once. A single Stronghold is just 1VP, but the second one makes them 3VP each, the third 4VP each, the fourth 6VP each (unless the Spoils run out, of course). And even if you aim to get VP out of Stronghold, you can still use your Spoils because you can gain them back with future Stronghold purchases.
If it really is too weak, a simple price adjustment might be all that is needed. Make it cost $5. But here's something to consider -- with $6, you can buy Masterpiece and get 3 Silvers. This gives Stronghold and 3 Spoils. That's actually pretty close on par, I think. Spoils and Silver are very roughly on par, and I think the potential VP and higher value for TfB make Stronghold itself better than Masterpiece, which is just a $3 Copper.
I agree with what you're saying here. It kind of annoys me that people are saying that it turns Spoils into a deal card. Who is forcing you not to play those spoils? They're only dead if you insist on powering these up, but you don't have to bother powering these up. Just being able to get 3 spoils for the same price as Gold sounds like a good deal. The Stronghold does become dead though, but that's 1 dead card instead of 4. Hopefully, you can trash it somehow.
3 Spoils can be much better than 3 Silvers if you don't what permanent treasure in your deck.
I think we're just going to get a community designed RfB card that improves on Hatter in the end.
That would make me very happy, actually. From the secret history, I get the impression that DXV had a card like that in mind when he created the Ruins. If we come out of this contest with a card that makes Ruined Village feel mechanically different from a Confusion, I'll consider this a success.
Yeah that would be okay by me. It could just be that Donald X. didn't want to waste too much time trying to get such an idea to work.
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The problem with an Attack that makes an opponent gain a Copper into his hand is that it's such a wash. Sometimes it'll help your opponents and sometimes it'll hurt them. Look at Cache. Cache is a $5 Gold that makes you gain two Coppers. So it stands to reason that if I have $5 in hand, there are times I'd be willing to gain just one Copper in order to buy Gold for $6.
I think "each other play may gain a Copper, putting it into his hand" is a small penalty on a card, and in fact I have just such a card in my set.
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Friday's Card:
Garderobe
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +$2. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play an Action card from your hand costing up to $3.
In general, I didn't like most of the Ruins-for-Benefit cards. This was my favorite, though I'm still not 100% sold on voting for it. First of all, it basically acts like an Action Silver, which is pretty strong for $2. Then, you gain a Ruins, which is bad. But, you can then play a card costing up to $3, which is cute, since you'll usually at worst have a Ruins to play at this point. This makes it a Silver-village that can only play cheap cards.
I guess the real question here is: How strong is the card considering it junks you up? Without the self-junking, this card is very strong. It seems that it would work best on board where you want to play a lot of cheap cards that *aren't* Ruins, and are able to trash the Ruins you gain. But, even here, it doesn't seem OP. Of course, it can self-synergize, but they you gain lots of Ruins. This could make it a beast in some alt-VP games, especially Gardens and Vineyard.
Anyway, this is my favorite and I think most interesting of the Ruins-for-Benefit cards here. Any other thoughts on it?
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Unless anyone convinces me otherwise, these are the cards that I like the most and plan on voting for:
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This card just feels very Dark Ages-y. It's not great by itself, but it combos with everything that trashes, including itself. I expect that it is expensive enough that it's not worthwhile to grab a lot of them in most games just to try to trigger themselves, but with scaling TfB that makes you want to trash expensive cards anyway, you could have so much fun. It's just built for combos, especially trashing-based things, which is what DA likes. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's "$2 or more" instead of "$1 or more"; it anti-synergizes with Shelters. Like, literally the only time $2 or more is different from $1 or more is with DA interactions, so that doesn't make any sense to me, but hopefully that can be changed. (I guess there's also highway/bridge/princess...)
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I know I've defended this card earlier, and I still like it a lot. Some people are worried that it can cause problems handing out both Ruins and Curses but I think this fear is completely invalid as I and a few others have argued before. I'm a little concerned that $5 is too expensive (it just seems so much weaker than Ambassador/Marauder/Moneylender, but maybe combining them onto one card makes it worth more?). I like the interaction with Shelters, which make the Action clause much more relevant than it otherwise would be.
Honestly, the name is terrible (is Incendiarist even a word?) and I don't know how to pronounce it so maybe it was trying to follow in the footsteps of Feodum in that regard, and also you would want the name to include "Iron", but that could be changed if it won.
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
I think this is most likely too strong as it is, and it has undesirable interactions with Saboteur and Swindler. With a cap on the cost of the gained card I think it would be more reasonable. Maybe you'll want to load up on them early on, but as soon as you start greening they become dead cards.
The reason I like this card so much is that it fits into Dark Ages very well. There are so many on-trash effects that you could trigger, and then you gain the trashed card right back out of the trash, unless it's Rats in which case you're glad it's gone. I think it could maybe use a weaker on-trash benefit though.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
My initial thought on this card was that it's too situational, but the more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. On the surface it sounds like a Copper that you can also apply to gainers, which I guess is mostly what it is, but there's so much you can do with that, especially in the context of Dark Ages. Like, trash a Feodum for two Silvers and a Feodum, or play Rats to turn something into a $5 card, Procession a Catacombs into a Catacombs, or Procession an Altar into a Province (and if you have another Bargain, grab another Altar to replace it on the Altar play).
The other thing is that it "blocks" junking, but I'm not sure that I actually like how it does that, since it costs $1. Basically you can turn a Curse or Ruins into a Bargain, which is generally better than taking a Curse or Ruins, but not enough to be worth buying a Copper in most cases, so I might advocate pricing it at $2. Alternatively, it could maybe cost $5 and gain a card costing up to (or exactly) $2 more, but maybe that changes it too much. Either way, I think this might be my favorite submission, just because it's unique, fits the "poverty" theme of Dark Ages, and interacts so well with so many Dark Ages cards.
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Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
This card just feels very Dark Ages-y. It's not great by itself, but it combos with everything that trashes, including itself. I expect that it is expensive enough that it's not worthwhile to grab a lot of them in most games just to try to trigger themselves, but with scaling TfB that makes you want to trash expensive cards anyway, you could have so much fun. It's just built for combos, especially trashing-based things, which is what DA likes. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's "$2 or more" instead of "$1 or more"; it anti-synergizes with Shelters. Like, literally the only time $2 or more is different from $1 or more is with DA interactions, so that doesn't make any sense to me, but hopefully that can be changed. (I guess there's also highway/bridge/princess...)
Yeah, that seems sensible. When If it wins, I'd like to see it playtested with "$X or more" replaced by "is not a Copper". I don't think it'd be overpowered, but it would be very interesting.
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I know I've defended this card earlier, and I still like it a lot. Some people are worried that it can cause problems handing out both Ruins and Curses but I think this fear is completely invalid as I and a few others have argued before. I'm a little concerned that $5 is too expensive (it just seems so much weaker than Ambassador/Marauder/Moneylender, but maybe combining them onto one card makes it worth more?). I like the interaction with Shelters, which make the Action clause much more relevant than it otherwise would be.
Honestly, the name is terrible (is Incendiarist even a word?) and I don't know how to pronounce it so maybe it was trying to follow in the footsteps of Feodum in that regard, and also you would want the name to include "Iron", but that could be changed if it won.
I'm probably not going to vote for any junker, including my own, but this is definitely the best one by far. The name shows up on Google, and Wikipedia defines arson as 'malicious incendiarism', but that doesn't explain why they didn't just call it 'Arsonist'. Maybe it's a historical reference in their home country and/or they have a really awkward [language]-to-English dictionary. Neither this nor Iron Maiden had a +action/coin/card bonus, so I don't think it's that big of a deal. It resembles a backwards Transmute more than the two Iron- cards; maybe it's an archaic word for an evil alchemist.
Ehh . . . this Cursing is very self-limiting, the junking is almost purely defensive, and it puts the Spoils pile to good use. This card is actually growing on me; I think it's sufficiently different from the other Cursers in that it can't run out any pile without an absurd amount of help. Rather than lowering the cost, my fix would be to give it a small bonus to its usefulness. It came from a fix I thought up for Transmute: just add a line on the end saying, "If it is none of these types, +1 action." It could even be bumped up to +1 card, +1 action without too much worry, and gives the cursed player an incentive to buy Incendiarist if it's the only trashing around, and later an incentive to retaliate with their own Necropolis or Ruins or Estates.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
My initial thought on this card was that it's too situational, but the more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. On the surface it sounds like a Copper that you can also apply to gainers, which I guess is mostly what it is, but there's so much you can do with that, especially in the context of Dark Ages. Like, trash a Feodum for two Silvers and a Feodum, or play Rats to turn something into a $5 card, Procession a Catacombs into a Catacombs, or Procession an Altar into a Province (and if you have another Bargain, grab another Altar to replace it on the Altar play).
Careful; that only works if there's an action card costing exactly $7 in the supply. It is much wonkier than a Copper.
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Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
I know I've defended this card earlier, and I still like it a lot. Some people are worried that it can cause problems handing out both Ruins and Curses but I think this fear is completely invalid as I and a few others have argued before. I'm a little concerned that $5 is too expensive (it just seems so much weaker than Ambassador/Marauder/Moneylender, but maybe combining them onto one card makes it worth more?). I like the interaction with Shelters, which make the Action clause much more relevant than it otherwise would be.
Honestly, the name is terrible (is Incendiarist even a word?) and I don't know how to pronounce it so maybe it was trying to follow in the footsteps of Feodum in that regard, and also you would want the name to include "Iron", but that could be changed if it won.
Yeah, I don't think this card is going to be too strong (unless you get a whole bunch of Great Halls or something). I initially found it weird that it's not a true curser because it can't really give all 10 curses, but the same is also true for Jester. It's the treasure->Spoils thing that really makes me interested in this card.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
My initial thought on this card was that it's too situational, but the more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. On the surface it sounds like a Copper that you can also apply to gainers, which I guess is mostly what it is, but there's so much you can do with that, especially in the context of Dark Ages. Like, trash a Feodum for two Silvers and a Feodum, or play Rats to turn something into a $5 card, Procession a Catacombs into a Catacombs, or Procession an Altar into a Province (and if you have another Bargain, grab another Altar to replace it on the Altar play).
The other thing is that it "blocks" junking, but I'm not sure that I actually like how it does that, since it costs $1. Basically you can turn a Curse or Ruins into a Bargain, which is generally better than taking a Curse or Ruins, but not enough to be worth buying a Copper in most cases, so I might advocate pricing it at $2. Alternatively, it could maybe cost $5 and gain a card costing up to (or exactly) $2 more, but maybe that changes it too much. Either way, I think this might be my favorite submission, just because it's unique, fits the "poverty" theme of Dark Ages, and interacts so well with so many Dark Ages cards.
Yay, someone else who likes this card! I agree that this can cost $2. It's no worse than a Copper since you don't really draw this dead. It also lets this deal with junk better.
With that change, it's hard to decide whether this is a Dark Ages card or a Hinterlands card. It can really combo with DA cards, but DA cards can also be awesome with Cornucopia cards.
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Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
All right, with all its discussion, here's my take on Danse Macabre. It's probably my favorite card that's been submitted, simply because it's the one that's the most interesting without it being over- or under-powered, and the one with the most potential.
First, the trash-on-buy thing - where, if you buy the card, you trash it instead of gaining it, getting the Stonemason power. I can see why it's priced at $4, because if it were priced at $5 or otherwise allowed you to gather $4's, you could get really great engine components and end the game on piles. Perhaps so you aren't stuck with bad cards, you could either allow the cards to be the same cost (say, 2 Silvers) or allow the player to trash another card in hand and gain both a card costing less than Danse Macabre as well as it (for instance, I buy Danse Macabre as an opening, trashing it for a Silver and an Estate in hand for a Copper, shooting up my money density).
And then there's the on play effect, which you get from pure gaining. I really like that it also gets you to disable another Action card for its benefit, seems like a nice nerf. I agree that "set aside an Action card and discard at end of turn" is far, far better than play for no effects - it's less clunky, has clearer interactions, and keeps it out of the discard pile. As for the effect itself (two Labs), I think that it's pretty close to the effect we really want (since it has everything to do with plowing through cards and nothing to do with gaining them), but I would feel more comfortable if it was something like Level 1 City (+2 Cards, +2 Actions) rather than two Labs.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Oh, and I really like this card, too. I know that it's just a Reaction, but it's a Reaction that's so universally useful that it's not a problem to have in hand. What would probably serve this card best is a name and/or art that suggests this card's power.
Not to mention that it deals with junk well. Mitigating $0 junk and getting more of these is exactly the kind of thing I want to do (which, of course, means that this will pile out extremely quickly in the presence of junkers) - and, in that case, I'd probably want extra copies of this in the Supply.
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OK, after considering the comments and discussion here, these are my favourites (which may or may not include my own). They are in ballot order because I'm too lazy to rearrange them today.
Carpenter
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand and gain a cheaper card, putting it into your hand. +$ equal to the cost in coins of the gained card.
When you trash this during your Action phase, +1 Action.
Pros: I really like the idea of "downgrade into hand" as an effect that is extremely niche but potentially powerful. The bonus money makes it an even better prospect. Overall, I find the effect quite compelling and just different enough from existing cards.
Cons: The reaction is pretty boring. It's also somewhat vanilla, and I kind of want to see crazier concepts. ;)
Possible tweaks: I definitely think the reaction should be dropped; it doesn't add much to the card. If it's too strong, a possible tweak is to require that the cheaper card cost at most $2 less (like a self-Saboteur). That prevents trashing $4s into $3s, for example.
Mortuary
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Action. Look through your discard pile. You may trash a card from your discard pile or hand.
While this is in play, when you trash a card costing $2 or more, +1 Card.
Pros: Fits very well into Dark Ages. Stacks in an interesting way.
Cons: Like Carpenter, it's still fairly vanilla. :P
Possible tweaks: I don't have any particular suggestions at this point.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Pros: I think the reaction is really interesting.
Cons: The action itself is not interesting.
Possible tweaks: Maybe if you put the gained card into your hand? And if that's too good, maybe have it downgrade a la Carpenter?
Heretic
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $5
Trash a card from your hand. Choose one: +1 Card per $ it costs; or +$ equal to its cost.
When one of your cards is trashed, you may trash this from your hand. If you do, put the trashed card into your hand.
Pros: I actually find it fairly interesting to have the choice between Apprentice and Salvager. The reaction has a purpose too, though it is somewhat narrow.
Cons: Possibly the choice is too strong, even though it lacks +1 Action or +1 Buy. If that is the case, I can't think of any good tweaks. I suppose the reaction could be more useful.
Possible tweaks: No great ideas.
Bargain
Types: Reaction
Cost: $1
When you would gain a card, you may discard this. If you do, instead, gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it.
Pros: Interesting function and potential combos. Pure reaction is different and fun.
Cons: Dark Ages fit is questionable. I think it still makes it because of potential combos and just the general "feel" of it, but it doesn't really hit the bullet points. It's also potentially too weak and maybe not worth it even with its most prominent combos (various cost-constrained gainers).
Possible tweaks: A cost increase would actually (probably) make this stronger as a defense against junking.
Soldier
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasues in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Pros: Super thematic. I like having more cards upgrade into Mercenary and Madman.
Cons: But maybe it's better not to reuse Mercenary and Madman like that (some people have expressed a dislike of that). Scales strangely with number of players. Probably the biggest complaint I have is just that it's so very wordy for an effect that is actually pretty simple, but I can't think of a way to make it more concise.
Possible tweaks: The number of cards needed to trigger the upgrades can be increased if it's too easy to activate them. But there are those possible scaling issues.
Stronghold
Cost: $6
Worth 1 VP for every 2 Spoils in your deck (rounded down).
When you gain this, gain 3 Spoils.
Pros: I've already discussed it elsewhere, but I think it adds interesting choices for players that current cards don't offer. It feels very novel and interesting to me.
Cons: I don't like the name, but that can be changed. The strategic choices that this card creates may be too abstract for casual players to figure out, making this look like a worse card than it is. Or possibly I am reading too much into its potential.
Possible tweaks: The Spoils-to-VP ratio could be tweaked, maybe? But I think the easiest buff (if needed) is to lower the cost to $5 or have it grant 4 Spoils instead of 3. Still, not sure it needs a buff at all.
Danse Macabre
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may play an Action from your hand for none of its effects. If you do, +4 Cards and +1 Action.
When you buy this, trash it.
When you trash this, gain 2 cheaper cards of different costs.
Pros: The dual-purpose concept is really, really neat. I'm still not convinced that the main action is too strong. Someone mentioned that this is probably stronger than Palanquin, a card submitted to the Hinterlands contest and was poorly received. As a reminder, Palanquin was like Apprentice except it discarded instead of trashed and it only worked on action cards. I think DM is more reasonable for a few reasons -- the fixed draw means it can't go nuts by using expensive cards. This is especially true because that card is not discarded but rendered unusable for the rest of the turn. Having to gain it without buying it is also a significant check.
Cons: I personally like how different it can be on different boards (specifically on whether there is a card that can gain DM) but that might be confusing for casual players. It's likely to cause confusion with Market Square because MS specifies one of your cards, but DM is technically not yours when it is trashed on-buy.
Possible tweaks: Collapse the on-buy and on-trash -- "When you buy this, trash this and gain..." Yes you lose some extra interaction, but it's worth it to avoid the double lines. I think the reaction should be buffed in some way (maybe just "two differently named cards costing less than $4, or less than this", so that you can gain two $3s and maybe combo with cost reduction), and I think lots of people would be happy if the main action were nerfed -- maybe only +3 Cards instead of +4? Saying "set aside" instead of "play with no effect" is also a sensible change.
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Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Pros: I think the reaction is really interesting.
Cons: The action itself is not interesting.
Possible tweaks: Maybe if you put the gained card into your hand? And if that's too good, maybe have it downgrade a la Carpenter?
Thinking about this card's Reaction, I think it might be even more interesting if it said:
"When you gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash the Silver and gain a Spoils."
This tweak won't likely make Silvers run out (unless it's a Masterpiece game). But, it makes the reaction combo in an interesting way with Dark Ages cards such as Forager, Rogue, and Graverobber. I see no reason not to make this tweak.
I still don't know if I'm sold on the card, since I'm not as interested in the Action part.
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Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Pros: I think the reaction is really interesting.
Cons: The action itself is not interesting.
Possible tweaks: Maybe if you put the gained card into your hand? And if that's too good, maybe have it downgrade a la Carpenter?
Thinking about this card's Reaction, I think it might be even more interesting if it said:
"When you gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash the Silver and gain a Spoils."
This tweak won't likely make Silvers run out (unless it's a Masterpiece game). But, it makes the reaction combo in an interesting way with Dark Ages cards such as Forager, Rogue, and Graverobber. I see no reason not to make this tweak.
I still don't know if I'm sold on the card, since I'm not as interested in the Action part.
I agree with this. "When you would... instead..." is a troublesome mechanic, and I think it is preferable to avoid it whenever possible. Schneau's tweak provides a mechanism which has interesting interactions rather than frustratingly technical interactions, yet does not change how the card usually impacts the game.
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Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Pros: I think the reaction is really interesting.
Cons: The action itself is not interesting.
Possible tweaks: Maybe if you put the gained card into your hand? And if that's too good, maybe have it downgrade a la Carpenter?
Thinking about this card's Reaction, I think it might be even more interesting if it said:
"When you gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash the Silver and gain a Spoils."
This tweak won't likely make Silvers run out (unless it's a Masterpiece game).
Trader!
AJD gains a Silver.
...AJD reveals a Smelter.
......AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.........AJD reveals a Trader.
............AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...............AJD reveals a Smelter.
..................AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.....................AJD reveals a Trader.
........................AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...and so on till the Silver pile is empty.
Smelter's reaction has to be would-gain, is what I'm saying.
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Trader!
AJD gains a Silver.
...AJD reveals a Smelter.
......AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.........AJD reveals a Trader.
............AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...............AJD reveals a Smelter.
..................AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.....................AJD reveals a Trader.
........................AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...and so on till the Silver pile is empty.
Smelter's reaction has to be would-gain, is what I'm saying.
And, indeed, it's why Trader itself has to be would-gain in the first place.
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Trader!
AJD gains a Silver.
...AJD reveals a Smelter.
......AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.........AJD reveals a Trader.
............AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...............AJD reveals a Smelter.
..................AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.....................AJD reveals a Trader.
........................AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...and so on till the Silver pile is empty.
Smelter's reaction has to be would-gain, is what I'm saying.
And, indeed, it's why Trader itself has to be would-gain in the first place.
There are plenty of other reasons Trader shouldn't trash the bought card. An obvious one in retrospect is that Donald wanted to do on-trash effects later, and buying a Squire and then trashing him for a Silver and Mountebank is no fair. But also, Trader would have let you run out piles and deny alt-VP rather aggressively. If my opponent opened Workshop/Workshop, I would happily spend my buys on Gardens which are immediately trashed for Silver.
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Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
Smelter (A)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I adore this almost purely for the Reaction. It's a novel idea, and one that looks sound (IIRC Donald said that a Spoils is roughly a Silver). Top part is...interesting. There is a couple of niche things you can do by essentially putting a card from your hand back on top of your deck, or playing a cantrip immediately after it to put the gained card into your hand, or activate on-trash effects, or for some weird three Smelter trick of playing one, trashing one for a Silver, raveling another Smelter from your hand, and then gaining the Spoils.
But actually, that gets me thinking. Would that smelted Spoils go on top of your deck? I'm thinking yes since you would be putting the Silver ontop of your deck and then instead putting a Spoils there. But I don't know. May be a blue dog thing.
Soldier
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $3
+1 Card. +1 Action. Each player trashes a Copper card from his hand (or reveals a hand without Copper). You may trash this. If you do, gain a Mercenary from the Mercenary pile if there are 4 or more Treasures in the trash; or gain a Madman from the Madman pile if there are 2 or more Soldiers in the trash.
Clarification: If there are 4 Treasures and 2 Soldiers in the trash, you choose whether to gain a Mercenary or a Madman.
Love this for the theme. I'll gladly +1 to whoever posted this after the contest is over. It really is a brilliant thematic implementation.
As for the card's effect, it has a bit of a scaling problem. But I really don't know a better way of handling it unless you put in some formula that has a different output depending on the number of players. But maybe it's fine. The exact numbers could also be tweaked as well as not making it a cantrip, but I mostly feel that this is a joke card.
Iron Maiden
Types: Action – Attack – Looter
Cost: $4
+$2. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a card. If it is an…
Action card, he gains a Copper; Treasure card, he gains a Ruins; Victory card, he gains a Curse. He puts the gained card into his hand.
When you trash this, you may trash up to 2 cards from your hand.
[/quote]
Awesome name. The effects seem just about right (and I don't mind that it gives out both Curses and Ruins, but I really do dislike Incendiarist), but it may need to cost $5. I can't tell if the bottom part is tacked on or not, but I have a feeling it is. Which I think is OK since I feel the same way about Catacombs. Cool card all around; not much else to say.
Smelter (B)
Types: Action – Reaction
Cost: $3
You may trash a card from your hand. If you trash an… Action card, +2 Actions; Treasure card, +$2; Victory card, +2 Cards.
When you trash a card you may discard this from your hand. If you go, gain a card costing less than the trashed card.
EDIT: If you trash a Victory card with Smelter, it gives you +2 Cards, not +1 Card.
I like both Smelters! This one gives a variety of <$2 effects for the price of $3, but you get to trash a card from your hand which I think makes up for it. The Reaction part is nifty with some self-synergy as well as fitting fairly well into the rest of the Dark Ages set. I don't think that it's effect fairly balanced. If you use it purely from this card, it's fairly weak. But against Knights or another Trashing attack or TFB, it could be really powerful, but not in a broken way. Overall, seems like a solid card.
Barrister
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
I really like this idea of fighting other people for their Claims. Thematic to boot! Balance-wise it seems all right. A couple of things could be tweaked post-contest, but it seems like its garnered mostly neutral opinions on it, so I doubt that it'll win. But I like the idea a whole lot!
Mendicant
Types: Action – Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
I'm a sucker for these $2 cards. I like this compared to the other Ruin-earning Looter submissions because of how straightforward the concept. Basically lets you amass a bunch of Ruins and play a whole bunch without having to spend an Action. And if you play enough, you get a +1 Card boost. My other quibble with it is that if you get unlucky with a Ruins Village ontop. I almost wish that the card had a You may gain a ruins... but then if this is the only Looter in the Kingdom, that Ruined Village will stay on top and this will just be a cantrip since know one would be willing to take one for the team. But it could be that the swinginess isn't THAT bad.
And that's it. I feel like there are a lot more duds this time around than from the Hinterlands submissions. Which I thought were worse than the Prosperity submissions. But I don't know, that could be just me.
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some weird three Smelter trick of playing one, trashing one for a Silver, raveling another Smelter from your hand, and then gaining the Spoils.
But actually, that gets me thinking. Would that smelted Spoils go on top of your deck? I'm thinking yes since you would be putting the Silver ontop of your deck and then instead putting a Spoils there. But I don't know. May be a blue dog thing.
No, this is a well-established thing. "When you would gain X... gain Y instead" replaces the entire "gain X" event, wherever its target is, with a "gain Y" event, which has no target specified and therefore goes to the discard pile. This is why you can play Explorer and then reveal Trader to replace the Silver-in-hand with Silver-in-discard-pile.
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
I almost wish that the card had a You may gain a ruins... but then if this is the only Looter in the Kingdom, that Ruined Village will stay on top and this will just be a cantrip since know one would be willing to take one for the team.
I dunno, they might if it's the only village.
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some weird three Smelter trick of playing one, trashing one for a Silver, raveling another Smelter from your hand, and then gaining the Spoils.
But actually, that gets me thinking. Would that smelted Spoils go on top of your deck? I'm thinking yes since you would be putting the Silver ontop of your deck and then instead putting a Spoils there. But I don't know. May be a blue dog thing.
No, this is a well-established thing. "When you would gain X... gain Y instead" replaces the entire "gain X" event, wherever its target is, with a "gain Y" event, which has no target specified and therefore goes to the discard pile. This is why you can play Explorer and then reveal Trader to replace the Silver-in-hand with Silver-in-discard-pile.
Huh. That does make sense. Thanks!
Mendicant
Types: Action Looter
Cost: $2
+1 Card. +1 Action. Gain a Ruins, putting it into your hand. You may play any number of Ruins from your hand. If you played two or more, +1 Card.
I almost wish that the card had a You may gain a ruins... but then if this is the only Looter in the Kingdom, that Ruined Village will stay on top and this will just be a cantrip since know one would be willing to take one for the team.
I dunno, they might if it's the only village.
Aw, good point. For some reason I forgot that a Ruined Village would be played with an action. So yeah. It'd act as a Village.
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Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils.
Pros: I think the reaction is really interesting.
Cons: The action itself is not interesting.
Possible tweaks: Maybe if you put the gained card into your hand? And if that's too good, maybe have it downgrade a la Carpenter?
Thinking about this card's Reaction, I think it might be even more interesting if it said:
"When you gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, trash the Silver and gain a Spoils."
This tweak won't likely make Silvers run out (unless it's a Masterpiece game).
Trader!
AJD gains a Silver.
...AJD reveals a Smelter.
......AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.........AJD reveals a Trader.
............AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...............AJD reveals a Smelter.
..................AJD trashes the Silver and gains a Spoils.
.....................AJD reveals a Trader.
........................AJD gains a Silver instead of the Spoils.
...and so on till the Silver pile is empty.
Smelter's reaction has to be would-gain, is what I'm saying.
Ugg, you're right. Well, mostly. You could hack it to say "Trash the Silver and put a Spoils from the Spoils pile into your discard pile", which gets around the whole gaining thing like Chancellor gets around the discarding thing.
This is (one reason) why Trader just shouldn't be.
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Blasphemy! Trader is awesome.
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This is (one reason) why Trader just shouldn't be.
Would you like a Silver instead?
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Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
I agree that the card is so cute, but one of the neat tricks that I like the most is if you amass a bunch of these. Sometimes Charter A will be the top card of the deck. In that case, this is +3 Cards, +1 Action (practically). That's Menagerie-like activation that would be fun to play, I think. Combined with the trashing, and this can get pretty strong. There's also a weird way to piece this reliably together with Watchtower. Namely:
Play Charter A, trash the top card (Charter A), draw your stuff, gain Charter A, reveal Watchtower, put Charter A on top of the deck. Play another Charter A (you have lots of them).
Thinking about it now, maybe it is strong at $4 (a non-terminal, indiscriminate-in-a-way trasher that can't hurt, plus Menagerie activation when you hit), but possibly costing at $5 will work, too. On other tweaks, I don't like the cost restrictions on the gain. Namely, it is unfun to trash your own Province as the card is written because this is essentially a Great Hall or a curselessFamiliar when good stuff is on top without the cost restriction. For that reason, I don't think this card needs to be potentially dangerous to play.
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Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
I agree that the card is so cute, but one of the neat tricks that I like the most is if you amass a bunch of these. Sometimes Charter A will be the top card of the deck. In that case, this is +3 Cards, +1 Action (practically). That's Menagerie-like activation that would be fun to play, I think. Combined with the trashing, and this can get pretty strong. There's also a weird way to piece this reliably together with Watchtower. Namely:
Play Charter A, trash the top card (Charter A), draw your stuff, gain Charter A, reveal Watchtower, put Charter A on top of the deck. Play another Charter A (you have lots of them).
Thinking about it now, maybe it is strong at $4 (a non-terminal, indiscriminate-in-a-way trasher that can't hurt, plus Menagerie activation when you hit), but possibly costing at $5 will work, too. On other tweaks, I don't like the cost restrictions on the gain. Namely, it is unfun to trash your own Province as the card is written because this is essentially a Great Hall or a curselessFamiliar when good stuff is on top without the cost restriction. For that reason, I don't think this card needs to be potentially dangerous to play.
It could have a cost restriction on both the cards it trashes and cards it gains, no?
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Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
I agree that the card is so cute, but one of the neat tricks that I like the most is if you amass a bunch of these. Sometimes Charter A will be the top card of the deck. In that case, this is +3 Cards, +1 Action (practically). That's Menagerie-like activation that would be fun to play, I think. Combined with the trashing, and this can get pretty strong. There's also a weird way to piece this reliably together with Watchtower. Namely:
Play Charter A, trash the top card (Charter A), draw your stuff, gain Charter A, reveal Watchtower, put Charter A on top of the deck. Play another Charter A (you have lots of them).
Thinking about it now, maybe it is strong at $4 (a non-terminal, indiscriminate-in-a-way trasher that can't hurt, plus Menagerie activation when you hit), but possibly costing at $5 will work, too. On other tweaks, I don't like the cost restrictions on the gain. Namely, it is unfun to trash your own Province as the card is written because this is essentially a Great Hall or a curselessFamiliar when good stuff is on top without the cost restriction. For that reason, I don't think this card needs to be potentially dangerous to play.
It could have a cost restriction on both the cards it trashes and cards it gains, no?
If accidental Province trashing bothers people so much, that would be the best solution. The thing is, this Charter is pretty absurdly strong. When I last though about it I didn't really consider the on-trash. Thinking about it now... Charter by itself pretty much enables a draw-your-deck engine. It's so safe you can piledrive them without really hurting your deck. When the junk is gone (or nearly gone), it becomes +3 Cards, +1 Action very easily. Menagerie was mentioned, but this blows it out of the water. With Menagerie, you have to actually build a diverse deck and gear it towards activating Menagerie. With Charter, you just buy lots of Charters. With Menagerie, there's finesse in how you play your hand to activate Menagerie. With Charter, you just hope the card you trash is a Charter.
Gaining a card from the trash really needs that cost cap because otherwise you'll get really horrible games where all you can do is steal each others' VP. Yeah accidentally trashing your own Province would feel bad, but at least you can play around that -- track your deck, don't play the Charter in the late game. People get upset at Lookout too, but it's something you can easily mitigate with you own choices. But Saboteur-Charter leaves you no good counterplay other than getting Charters of your own and hoping you're lucky enough to get your Province back before an opponent swipes it (and maybe steal some of theirs if you mirror). Good luck if there are Highways too. I can see games like this turning into Stalemates where players just keep stealing Provinces from each other and cannot otherwise end the game with a win.
So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
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Blasphemy! Trader is awesome.
Here's what Donald said (http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/06/24/dominion-outtakes/):
Old Silver Mine, if I made the set again I might just stick in Traders top with no bottom, the bottom is trouble and the top was a compelling card. You cant squeeze every ounce of playability out of every card and still have a playable game; thats the paradox of card text.
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Well, I'm doing it. Not all of them though. Just my favorites (my card may or may not be included).
Onto the cards!
Charter (A)
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +1 Action. Trash the top card of your deck. You may gain a card from the trash.
When you trash this, +2 Cards.
This is just so cute. It's basically discard the top card of your deck if it rocks, trash it otherwise and gain something decent from the trash. It has a few other tricks (most notably on-trash effects like Cultist and Squire), but that's the gist of it. It almost needs a $3-$6 clause, but then that almost defeats the purpose of it if you happen to trash a Province. It steps on Rats toes just a bit, but not enough that I don't think it shouldn't exist. I think that if the on trash is too powerful, it could be reduced to just +1 Card. But then the similarities between it and Rats grow even similar.
I agree that the card is so cute, but one of the neat tricks that I like the most is if you amass a bunch of these. Sometimes Charter A will be the top card of the deck. In that case, this is +3 Cards, +1 Action (practically). That's Menagerie-like activation that would be fun to play, I think. Combined with the trashing, and this can get pretty strong. There's also a weird way to piece this reliably together with Watchtower. Namely:
Play Charter A, trash the top card (Charter A), draw your stuff, gain Charter A, reveal Watchtower, put Charter A on top of the deck. Play another Charter A (you have lots of them).
Thinking about it now, maybe it is strong at $4 (a non-terminal, indiscriminate-in-a-way trasher that can't hurt, plus Menagerie activation when you hit), but possibly costing at $5 will work, too. On other tweaks, I don't like the cost restrictions on the gain. Namely, it is unfun to trash your own Province as the card is written because this is essentially a Great Hall or a curselessFamiliar when good stuff is on top without the cost restriction. For that reason, I don't think this card needs to be potentially dangerous to play.
It could have a cost restriction on both the cards it trashes and cards it gains, no?
I'd be happier with that. I'd hate to trash a Province and not be able to gain it. Seems like a reasonable tweak, to me, but I'm thinking about it quickly.
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So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
The possibility of hitting your own Province is bad if there's nothing you can do about it. At least with Lookout, you get some choice about whether you trash Province or some other card in the top 3 cards (and if you turn over 3 Provinces, maybe you have too many). But, having no choice is bad. Maybe that's my opinion/taste, but it's a firmly held conviction that I find to be quite reasonable.
That said, I like the idea of whiffing on trashing Victory cards (both on trash and gain). That interaction with Sab seems to be the issue that people are having more than anything.
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So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
The possibility of hitting your own Province is bad if there's nothing you can do about it. At least with Lookout, you get some choice about whether you trash Province or some other card in the top 3 cards (and if you turn over 3 Provinces, maybe you have too many). But, having no choice is bad. Maybe that's my opinion/taste, but it's a firmly held conviction that I find to be quite reasonable.
That said, I like the idea of whiffing on trashing Victory cards (both on trash and gain). That interaction with Sab seems to be the issue that people are having more than anything.
When it comes to gaining Provinces from the trash, well, that's already possible with Rogue/Graverobber + cost reduction.
Whiffing on VP cards can be a nerf, except the card still lets you gain from the trash if it discards a VP card. So, you don't waste your trash gain on getting your Province back, and that might defy the author's original intention.
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So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
The possibility of hitting your own Province is bad if there's nothing you can do about it. At least with Lookout, you get some choice about whether you trash Province or some other card in the top 3 cards (and if you turn over 3 Provinces, maybe you have too many). But, having no choice is bad. Maybe that's my opinion/taste, but it's a firmly held conviction that I find to be quite reasonable.
That said, I like the idea of whiffing on trashing Victory cards (both on trash and gain). That interaction with Sab seems to be the issue that people are having more than anything.
When it comes to gaining Provinces from the trash, well, that's already possible with Rogue/Graverobber + cost reduction.
Whiffing on VP cards can be a nerf, except the card still lets you gain from the trash if it discards a VP card. So, you don't waste your trash gain on getting your Province back, and that might defy the author's original intention.
That's only going to make a difference when good things are being trashed and not being gained by other Charter (A)s, which seems fairly uncommon. I don't think it's a big deal.
Here is my opinion on why the potential Province trashing is a bad thing: In a sense, it has the reverse Treasure Map problem. By Treasure Map problem, I mean when it's probabilistically suboptimal to go for Treasure Map but you get lucky and collide them anyway, which ends up giving you an advantage. So by reverse Treasure Map problem, I mean that it can be probabilistically optimal for you to play Charter (A) (since you have a low ratio of Provinces in your deck and the consequence of hitting the Province times the probability that it happens is less than the benefit of hitting, say, a Copper times the probability that that happens), but you get unlucky and hit a Province anyway. The reason why this is a much bigger problem than the Treasure Map problem is that good players generally know not to go for Treasure Map without support, so as you reach high levels of play the problem disappears entirely. But when you reverse the problem, it never goes away, because you're still looking at cases where making the correct play can screw you over.
So for people who are dismissing it by saying "just never play Charter (A) after you have a Province"; I suspect that there will be cases in which it is indeed the correct play to play Charter (A) with a Province in your deck, and yet you can still hit that Province and suffer hugely because of it. Let's say that you just lose the game if you trash a Province, and you have 20 cards in your draw pile with one Province in it. That's only a 5% chance of just losing the game when you play Charter (A), but if you hit one of your other Charter (A)s, that's +3 cards, and maybe you know that that's enough to bump you up to $8 for another Province this hand, or if you hit your Copper, that's a bad card out of your deck, or if you hit your Catacombs you get a cantrip workshop effect, or if you hit one of your average cards nothing bad happens. I feel like many of those types of scenarios give you a higher probability of winning the game by playing Charter (A), but you still have the problem of potentially trashing your Province(s).
So, I actually really like eHalcyon's fix, with the prevention of gaining victory cards from the trash. That is:
+1 card, +1 action. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's a victory card, discard it. Otherwise, trash it. You may gain a card from the trash that is not a victory card.
When you trash this, +2 cards.
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So if the possibility of hitting your own Province is such a bad thing (it really isn't), then it's better just to put some other restriction on there so that the Province doesn't get trashed in the first place. A cost restriction on the trashing would be one way. Another option would be to have it discard Victory cards instead of trashing them. Then the trashing also whiffs on Estates, which also helps mitigate how powerful Charter can be just on its own.
The possibility of hitting your own Province is bad if there's nothing you can do about it. At least with Lookout, you get some choice about whether you trash Province or some other card in the top 3 cards (and if you turn over 3 Provinces, maybe you have too many). But, having no choice is bad. Maybe that's my opinion/taste, but it's a firmly held conviction that I find to be quite reasonable.
That said, I like the idea of whiffing on trashing Victory cards (both on trash and gain). That interaction with Sab seems to be the issue that people are having more than anything.
When it comes to gaining Provinces from the trash, well, that's already possible with Rogue/Graverobber + cost reduction.
Whiffing on VP cards can be a nerf, except the card still lets you gain from the trash if it discards a VP card. So, you don't waste your trash gain on getting your Province back, and that might defy the author's original intention.
Yes it's already possible, but it's not easy to do. You are asking for multiple terminals AND cost reduction, which probably needs to be highway or you'll need even more village support. It's problematic with Charter as is because it is a cantrip.
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A little less than 12 hours left to get your votes in! I'm definitely hoping more people vote than for Hinterlands, which had 31.
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I hope to have the results up sometime tonight, but I haven't even started tallying the votes yet. All I can tell you for sure so far is that my card got zero votes. Archetype, y u no vote!? :'(
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I hope to have the results up sometime tonight, but I haven't even started tallying the votes yet. All I can tell you for sure so far is that my card got zero votes. Archetype, y u no vote!? :'(
He's not the only one who didn't vote. I'm guilty myself :(
Honestly i din't even look at most cards. Sorry to all those who would otherwise have got my vote...
I spent a few days in and on the way to London which caused me being about 36 hours in a row without real sleep (twice) last week, so i'll let the fact that i still feel like a wreck be my excuse.
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Well, in the meantime, here is a novel I wrote about developing Danse Macabre. A card which I also voted for! (Along with Bargain, Garderobe, Incendiarist, and Stronghold.)
After making a few cards that went mostly unremarked upon, I'm very happy to have a card provoke some conversation, even though not everyone liked it. Thanks for the attention, it was incredibly rewarding!
I knew I wanted to do a card that was kind of morbid, like Rats and Knights. So, first I thought of the name.
The second thing I thought of was a card that trashed on buy, an idea I really dug. Like Grand Market, activated City, Prizes, Hermit and Madman, this would be a card you couldn't get the usual way. Who doesn't love that? And because Dark Ages has Rogue and Graverobber in addition to the usual amount of gainers, it fits nicely into the set. There's more likely to be a path to Danse Macabre, if you really want it.
But I didn't want Macabre to be a dead card when there's no way of gaining it. So, an on-trash benefit seemed like it would fit the card and the set in a satisfying way. Just had to come up with a nice on-trash benefit.
For a while, Macabre cost 6 and could top-deck an action. At first, it's on-trash could top-deck ANY action. Hey, why not? How often would it appear with King's Court anyway. But, I dunno. With Baker in the kingdom, you could get a second-turn Forge paired with your three starting Estates, and that seemed like way too much, even for me. Then it could just top-deck cheaper actions, and that seemed ok, if a little derivative of Border Village. But, it had this really boring interaction with Graverobber, where you'd buy Danse Macabre, topdeck Graverobber, then use Graverobber to topdeck Danse Macabre. Kind of programmatic. And Graverobber should be one of the more fun interactions, so I ditched that idea.
Next, Macabre cost 4 and could get two cheaper cards. But that seemed like it would often be too strong. So, I thought, what about a cheaper card and an even-still-cheaper card? That would be good sometimes, and suck sometimes. Again, it fits with the set, because, hardy-har, Poor House-Hamlet. And though the effect would often suck when there's no $2s, it would never be COMPLETELY irrelevant, because in pretty much any kingdom, there's a plausible game state where you would want to buy Estate on 4, and now you can get a Silver with it.
It was hard to come up with a simple way to describe a second, even-cheaper card. Finally, I thought of "two cards of different costs" and decided, OK, that doesn't exactly mean what I want it to mean, but it's simple. Then I realized, actually it means exactly what I want it to mean! A card and a cheaper card = two cards of different cost. That epiphany was a the high point of my card-designing hobby so far.
And then finally I had to decide what the card actually did. But, I couldn't think of anything, so I gave up. I started working on this other card that plays an action for no effect, then gets a cool benefit. Then I decided to just put that onto Danse Macabre.
Problems with the card
The biggest problem with the card is the on-trash effect. I love it, but it's really pile-draining. If there's a good $2-$3 combo, like Hamlet-Menagerie, the game will end as soon as it starts. I'd prefer not to change the benefit, but the only solution I really came up with is limiting the number of Macabres to 8.
Some people are vexed by the "play an action for no effect." That's understandable, as it's the only thing in the game like that. But, that's also what makes the card cool. Playing an action for no effect is, as these things go, not ALL that confusing. It's easy to track. Yeah, it creates rules questions, but all of them have clear answers. An action played this way plays as if it has no text in its box. It triggers Conspirator, Horn of Plenty, Urchin, and Horse Traders, because it still has a card-type and a name. But it does nothing else. It has no "while-in-play effects." Durations played this way leave play during clean-up, as Tactician does when you play it with no cards in hand, (that is, "for no effect.")
EDIT: I see now that the technical Dominion term for the text in the box is "abilities" not "effects." It would be clearer wording to use the correct term on the card itself.
I prefer "play an action for no effect" to "set-aside an action now and discard it during clean-up." Though they have similar effects, the first phrasing is simpler. So that's my marginal preference. Of course, discarding an action is simpler still, but it's not as harsh a penalty, and so the benefit can't be as cool. That's my least favorite way of doing the card.
Then third, there's the benefit. +4 Cards and +1 Action is pretty strong. Is it too strong? Well, that's the benefit of Village-Smithy. It's also only one more +card than Stables, which discards dumb Coppers instead of wasting actions. But, at 4, Danse Macabre is cheaper than Stables. On the other hand, it's harder to get. But, with Ironworks, Talisman, Haggler, etc, it's not THAT hard. So, is the bonus too good?
Ironworks-Macabre I thought about a lot. It's really strong. It's different from Ironworks-Village-Smithy, because the Ironworks IS the Smithy. (Or the Village. Or it's an Ironworks!) If you open Ironworks-Silver and then just buy Ironworks and use Ironworks to gain Danse Macabre, by turn 7 you can draw your deck, buy a Province, and also gain more Macabres. You can do that 8 turns in a row, with luck. I think you probably are unlikely to have that optimum luck -- sometimes you'll have dead hands. And, hey, other combos can get all the Provinces by turn 14. (Right?)
But, the whole sequence feels like it might be programmatic and boring. I think the problem is, wasting an action is sad. Actions are fun. Drawing cards is a little less fun. I worry that +4 cards, +1 Action doesn't quite make up for wasting an action, in terms of enjoyability. I suspect the bonus is not so game-breakingly strong, even with Ironworks. But I wonder if it should be more interesting than "lots of cards."
Finally, some people don't want the card to have two lines. They just want one big mushy sentence. I don't get that at all. Lines are great.
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Well, in the meantime, here is a novel I wrote about developing Danse Macabre. A card which I also voted for! (Along with Bargain, Garderobe, Incendiarist, and Stronghold.)
After making a few cards that went mostly unremarked upon, I'm very happy to have a card provoke some conversation, even though not everyone liked it. Thanks for the attention, it was incredibly rewarding!
I knew I wanted to do a card that was kind of morbid, like Rats and Knights. So, first I thought of the name.
The second thing I thought of was a card that trashed on buy, an idea I really dug. Like Grand Market, activated City, Prizes, Hermit and Madman, this would be a card you couldn't get the usual way. Who doesn't love that? And because Dark Ages has Rogue and Graverobber in addition to the usual amount of gainers, it fits nicely into the set. There's more likely to be a path to Danse Macabre, if you really want it.
But I didn't want Macabre to be a dead card when there's no way of gaining it. So, an on-trash benefit seemed like it would fit the card and the set in a satisfying way. Just had to come up with a nice on-trash benefit.
For a while, Macabre cost 6 and could top-deck an action. At first, it's on-trash could top-deck ANY action. Hey, why not? How often would it appear with King's Court anyway. But, I dunno. With Baker in the kingdom, you could get a second-turn Forge paired with your three starting Estates, and that seemed like way too much, even for me. Then it could just top-deck cheaper actions, and that seemed ok, if a little derivative of Border Village. But, it had this really boring interaction with Graverobber, where you'd buy Danse Macabre, topdeck Graverobber, then use Graverobber to topdeck Danse Macabre. Kind of programmatic. And Graverobber should be one of the more fun interactions, so I ditched that idea.
Next, Macabre cost 4 and could get two cheaper cards. But that seemed like it would often be too strong. So, I thought, what about a cheaper card and an even-still-cheaper card? That would be good sometimes, and suck sometimes. Again, it fits with the set, because, hardy-har, Poor House-Hamlet. And though the effect would often suck when there's no $2s, it would never be COMPLETELY irrelevant, because in pretty much any kingdom, there's a plausible game state where you would want to buy Estate on 4, and now you can get a Silver with it.
It was hard to come up with a simple way to describe a second, even-cheaper card. Finally, I thought of "two cards of different costs" and decided, OK, that doesn't exactly mean what I want it to mean, but it's simple. Then I realized, actually it means exactly what I want it to mean! A card and a cheaper card = two cards of different cost. That epiphany was a the high point of my card-designing hobby so far.
And then finally I had to decide what the card actually did. But, I couldn't think of anything, so I gave up. I started working on this other card that plays an action for no effect, then gets a cool benefit. Then I decided to just put that onto Danse Macabre.
Problems with the card
The biggest problem with the card is the on-trash effect. I love it, but it's really pile-draining. If there's a good $2-$3 combo, like Hamlet-Menagerie, the game will end as soon as it starts. I'd prefer not to change the benefit, but the only solution I really came up with is limiting the number of Macabres to 8.
Some people are vexed by the "play an action for no effect." That's understandable, as it's the only thing in the game like that. But, that's also what makes the card cool. Playing an action for no effect is, as these things go, not ALL that confusing. It's easy to track. Yeah, it creates rules questions, but all of them have clear answers. An action played this way plays as if it has no text in its box. It triggers Conspirator, Horn of Plenty, Urchin, and Horse Traders, because it still has a card-type and a name. But it does nothing else. It has no "while-in-play effects." Durations played this way leave play during clean-up, as Tactician does when you play it with no cards in hand, (that is, "for no effect.")
I prefer "play an action for no effect" to "set-aside an action now and discard it during clean-up." Though they have similar effects, the first phrasing is simpler. So that's my marginal preference. Of course, discarding an action is simpler still, but it's not as harsh a penalty, and so the benefit can't be as cool. That's my least favorite way of doing the card.
Then third, there's the benefit. +4 Cards and +1 Action is pretty strong. Is it too strong? Well, that's the benefit of Village-Smithy. It's also only one more +card than Stables, which discards dumb Coppers instead of wasting actions. But, at 4, Danse Macabre is cheaper than Stables. On the other hand, it's harder to get. But, with Ironworks, Talisman, Haggler, etc, it's not THAT hard. So, is the bonus too good?
Ironworks-Macabre I thought about a lot. It's really strong. It's different from Ironworks-Village-Smithy, because the Ironworks IS the Smithy. (Or the Village. Or it's an Ironworks!) If you open Ironworks-Silver and then just buy Ironworks and use Ironworks to gain Danse Macabre, by turn 7 you can draw your deck, buy a Province, and also gain more Macabres. You can do that 8 turns in a row, with luck. I think you probably are unlikely to have that optimum luck -- sometimes you'll have dead hands. And, hey, other combos can get all the Provinces by turn 14. (Right?)
But, the whole sequence feels like it might be programmatic and boring. I think the problem is, wasting an action is sad. Actions are fun. Drawing cards is a little less fun. I worry that +4 cards, +1 Action doesn't quite make up for wasting an action, in terms of enjoyability. I suspect the bonus is not so game-breakingly strong, even with Ironworks. But I wonder if it should be more interesting than "lots of cards."
Finally, some people don't want the card to have two lines. They just want one big mushy sentence. I don't get that at all. Lines are great.
I applaud you for what was to me the most thought provoking card in the set, as well as this nice writeup! I don't expect Danse Macabre to win, but I voted for it and enjoyed its uniqueness!
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Well, I made Smelter (A).
Smelter (A)
Types: Action Reaction
Cost: $3
+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost, putting it on top of your deck.
When you would gain a Silver, you may reveal this from your hand. If you do, instead, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile.
I was messing around and made a mini expansion entirely revolving around Spoils a loooong time ago. The bottom part of this card was one of those cards:
Profiteer
Types: Action-Reaction
Cost: $4
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal a Spoils. Put it into your hand, discard the other revealed cards.
Whenever you gain a Silver, you may reveal this card from your hand. Gain a Spoils instead.
Donald said a Silver is a roughly a Spoils. So that's how the bottom part was made. Simply switching one for the other. I could've made the bottom "OR when you gain a Spoils gain a Silver instead", but that would get too wordy too fast. And I figured that people would want Spoils anyway {insert edgecase here}.
Top part was stupid. It discards your deck if you have no Spoils. So, instead of trying to fix it up, I trashed it and started over.
Now, I wanted it to cost $3. Trader costs $4 and both of them interacted with Silvers so I wanted them to be as different as possible. I wanted the top to be able to get Silvers some how, but not anything boring like '+1 Action; Gain a Silver'. Plus, it needed to be a bit more Dark Ages-y. I didn't want the only excuse for it to be in the set be because of the Spoils. 'So what about +1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a Silver?' Wait. That's Trader but worse.
I then began thinking about names. 'Smelter' was fun to say, so that became the name. I thought what a Smelter would do in Dominion terms, and realized they'd trash things for other things. So I came up with '+1 Action. Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card of equal cost and put it into your hand.' Now that was cool. It interacted with other on-trash things in DA by activating a Cultist or Squire or something. Plus, it still had a bit of self-synergy (like, almost as much synergy as Watchtower and it's Reaction). But then I realized just how powerful Smelter was if the card went in your hand. 'Trash a Cultist, Draw 3 cards. Gain a Cultist. Play a Smelter'. Rinse and repeat.
So that left me with two options: Axe the +1 Action or make the gained card go on top of your deck. I could axe the +1 Action, but that would make the card if more niche. It was pretty specific before, but without +1 Action, I don't think I'd ever buy it. Putting the card on top of your decks seemed good. It gives similar combos as before, but adds a bit more skill. If you want to get a better $4 card, the one you want will go on top of your deck. So you need to draw cards to get it into your hand. Plus, if you're really skillful, you can essentially save a card in your hand for your next turn by essentially putting it on top of the deck.
That seemed nifty. So I sent it in.
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So here's how I feel about the card itself: I really, really like it. Some people LOVED the bottom part, but thought the top part was lame. But I think the top part of the card being so niche is what makes it shine. Most reactions can't have '+1 Action' because then you'd always stock up on them for their reaction and suffer very little penalty. With this card there is a slight bonus in during that (Play a Smelter. Trash a Smelter, gain a Silver. Reveal Smelter, gain a Spoils instead), but its better off used for two separate purposes (like Watchtower). Either use it for 'next turn' purposes by exchanging Silvers for Spoils and trashing cards to be put on top of your deck or use it in conjunction with DA to super-charge your on-trash benefit cards, swap out that Ruins for a Poor House, or fix your early game mistake by swapping Counts for Rebuilds.
I don't think this card will win, but I hope people take a second glance at it. So many uses for such a simple card, and I think that was largely overlooked.
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I actually liked how niche the top part of Smelter (A) was, though I don't think you'd be able to trash Silver to top-deck Spoils with its current wording.
Why does every card have to be the best card ever on almost every board?
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I actually liked how niche the top part of Smelter (A) was, though I don't think you'd be able to trash Silver to top-deck Spoils with its current wording.
Oh I knew that. I was just acting like I didn't so that people wouldn't think it was my card.
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Why does every card have to be the best card ever on almost every board?
This. I feel like we have strong tendency to reject cards that seem too weak. I like cards that are niche because then it's so gratifying when you make them work. I remember when I first learned dominion playing with my sister and I used chancellor to put my deck in my discard and then played counting house. It was the greatest thing ever (yes, I realize this combo really isn't very powerful). Donald's favorite card is rats even though it sucks a lot of the time; It's fun to figure out how to build a good deck after rats have eaten through all of your cards.
I also voted for Smelter (A), for both the top and bottom.
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Why does every card have to be the best card ever on almost every board?
While I agree that I think I generally like weak cards more than strong cards, it does make a lot of sense that people tend to accept strong fan cards more than weak ones. If you're playing with a fan card, that's not something you do every day, and the game is fun and interesting because there's this new card on the board that you're not used to. But if it's weak or niche, and it's not a good board for the card, then you don't get to play with it, and you missed out on that opportunity to experience a new card. It makes sense that people would rather have the new and interesting cards be cards that they can play more regularly than that, since they don't have nearly as much experience with them as they do with official cards.
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So... my designer's notes for Model Village:
I wanted to make a card with an on-trash benefit. Now given the existence of Swindler, on-trash benefits have to be things that can meaningfully happen in your opponent's turn, so I looked for those things. +Cards... Dark Ages already has a lot of that. Gain a card... it already has that. What about the third option on Governor, remodel a card? Ah, that looks promising.
Of course, there might not be any trashing in the set, so we needed the card to still be playable if there wasn't. How about Village? There are already lots of variants on Village, so another $4 Village variant seemed a reasonable idea. You might not want to trash it very often, but then you don't want to trash Mining Village very often. It's still a perfectly reasonable card.
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So... my designer's notes for Model Village:
I wanted to make a card with an on-trash benefit. Now given the existence of Swindler, on-trash benefits have to be things that can meaningfully happen in your opponent's turn, so I looked for those things. +Cards... Dark Ages already has a lot of that. Gain a card... it already has that. What about the third option on Governor, remodel a card? Ah, that looks promising.
Of course, there might not be any trashing in the set, so we needed the card to still be playable if there wasn't. How about Village? There are already lots of variants on Village, so another $4 Village variant seemed a reasonable idea. You might not want to trash it very often, but then you don't want to trash Mining Village very often. It's still a perfectly reasonable card.
Yeah. I thought it was alright. But with Fortress in DA, I feel it sort of outshines Model Village.
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I made Surveyor.
As said in the PM to LastFootnote,
It's so much less pressure to only spend ~10 minutes on each card, that way I don't have to worry about winning because I know it won't happen.
Here was my thought process.
- Hm, let's make an upgrader.
- Generalized upgrading is already done pretty well by Upgrade/Remake, so let's limit it to type.
- Well Mine does treasures, and I don't feel like upgrading Actions, so Victory cards it is
- Okay, so Rebuild exists already, and does Victory->Victory, so let's do Victory to, say, Treasure
- Ooo, Beggar reaction is interesting, let's mirror it.
And that's it. The rest was made up on the fly, and I literally added the Reaction while typing the PM, because I realized the card sucked too much after you got rid of starting Estates. I have no idea how the power level is, it feels like a strong open and 2 Golds off 1 Duchy might even make it worth buying Duchies early (which is why the Reaction triggers on VP buy. I'd change the trigger now, it messes with end VP in a kinda arbitrary way.)
It was only sometime in the middle of the week that I realized a Surveyor/Estate opening might be reasonable in a Shelter game. You can turn the Estate into 2 Silver, or trash Overgrown gaining nothing because it says exactly $1 more. So that was neat.
The reception seemed to be that it's neat/cute, although slightly flawed, and it's not particularly interesting. But hey, 10 minutes of random thoughts, not bad.
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I made a card that was originally a joke card, but developed into a real one. For some reason my PM never reached LF, so I'll probably try it for the next contest, otherwise I'd tell you about it, it's pretty funny.
Coincidentally, I'm surprised we didn't get a card called Cats.
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I made Renovate, I quite like it, even after hearing other people's feedback.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
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I made Renovate, I quite like it, even after hearing other people's feedback.
Renovate
Type: Action
Cost: $4
Trash a card from your hand. You may gain a card costing up to $1 more than the trashed card, putting it into your hand. If it is an Action card, play it.
I thought it was cool, except for the auto-piling that you can do with Fortress. It's hard to think of a way to fix that, because even if you don't allow Renovate to gain Renovate, you could gain BoM and play it as Renovate.
My card had mixed reactions, I think. It has mixed reactions from me too. :P I have to get going so I'll type something up about it later, but for now I will say -- the original inspiration for my card was actually another jokier card named Cabbage Merchant. I feel like this is appropriate to say in a reply to Robz. :D
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I made Brick.
I originally wanted to make a more interesting and "better" Feast (Brick is to Feast as Noble Brigand is to Thief). Feast is $4 card upgrading itself, and the idea of doing things to cards in play was something I thought could be explored, so I made an action card that could upgrade any card in play for $4. It wasn't strictly better than feast; it can't gain cards costing less than $5 in normal circumstances, and it doesn't combo with highway and bridge. However those were minor edge cases so I gave it a penalty, and "gain a copper to hand" seemed interesting (as both a benefit and a detriment). Not being able to trash treasures seemed more like an oversight than a design decision, so I changed the card to a treasure, and I didn't like the idea of a treasure worth $0 (Horn of Plenty should stand alone there). Now the card was definitely too strong for 4; I bumped it up to $5 and here's Brick. Maybe it's different enough from the original concept to coexist.
One of my favourite things is that it's a special copper that loses its specialness (ie becomes an ordinary copper) when you trash it. LastFootnote's card "Fund" does something similar. I think it's a pretty neat idea.
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One of my favourite things is that it's a special copper that loses its specialness (ie becomes an ordinary copper) when you trash it. LastFootnote's card "Fund" does something similar. I think it's a pretty neat idea.
I don't really see this effect as being like Fund. Fund doesn't turn into Silver as a penalty. Rather, it was essentially always just a Silver, except that it can give you a one time bonus. That's how it fits into the one shot theme.
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One of my favourite things is that it's a special copper that loses its specialness (ie becomes an ordinary copper) when you trash it. LastFootnote's card "Fund" does something similar. I think it's a pretty neat idea.
I don't really see this effect as being like Fund. Fund doesn't turn into Silver as a penalty. Rather, it was essentially always just a Silver, except that it can give you a one time bonus. That's how it fits into the one shot theme.
That's a good point, and they're completely different cards in their design. I just thought the concept of becoming ordinary was cool.
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OK, so, I really wanted to make a card named Cabbage Merchant. It's a reference to Avatar: The Last Airbender. The card should certainly deal with trashing, and it would be extra cool if it dealt with Victory cards in particular (because they are green, you see). As a Merchant, he should probably give money and a Buy. Then I figured, with his Cabbages getting destroyed, he should surely go mad. Then I thought, wouldn't it be neat if other cards could upgrade into Madman?
Cabbage Merchant
$3 Action
+1 Buy
+$2
Each player may trash a card from his hand. If there are 4 or more Victory cards in the trash, you may trash this and gain a Madman from the Madman pile.
But why just Madman? It would be even cooler if a card could upgrade into either Madman or Mercenary. The idea is that the starting card *becomes* the other card. The Hermit goes mad, the Urchin gets tough. So I tried to think of a thematic way to link Madman and Mercenary. I ended up with a Soldier who might mourn his friends and go mad with grief, or become greedy and turn into a Mercenary.
I really like this basic concept, but I think my final execution was clunky. I wanted it to be a weak cantrip attack like Urchin but I couldn't think of a simple one. The numbers for the triggers were probably too low. Overall, the idea requires a lot of text and probably isn't awesome enough to be worth it.
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I made Robber Baron. I just sort of threw it together. I hindsight, it's kinda shitty.
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I made Satan's Workshop. Sorry.
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I made Satan's Workshop. Sorry.
Ehh... we all make cards that don't work out (I submitted a Workshop/Scout combo last contest that got almost universally panned).
The important thing is to figure out what went wrong, adjust, and submit a card for the next contest that is terrible/broken in a whole different way.
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There wasn't much enthusiasm for my card, which was:
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret from the Supply or trash.
The evolution of it is a bit convoluted so I won't say much but here are a couple of comments. I thought the tension between trashing now for the benefit, or keeping to accumulate more ferrets could lead to some interesting decisions. I definitely wanted both buying it as a one shot $4 or as a way to breed more ferrets for a mega-turn to be viable depending on the board. Probably as the card is the incentive for keeping them is not enough. An earlier version had a + Buy (someone suggested this in a comment I think as well). At one stage I also allowed any action card to be ferreted out of the trash. I'm curious to know whether the card would have been more popular with these changes (as below), or whether people think the whole concept is uninteresting.
Ferret
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Buy
You may trash this. If you do, +$ equal to the cost in coins of an Action card in the trash that you choose.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a Ferret or gain an action card from the trash.
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I made this card, a few people liked it but not a lot of people talked about it:
Ignoble Brigand
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $4
+$1. You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player may discard a Treasure. If he doesn't, he gains a Ruins.
I still think it's neat, it's not complicated but it still involves some uncomfortable decisions which is what I aimed for. If anything it may be a little too strong, as cards which achieve multiple aims in the early game tend to be really strong (examples: Ambassador, Masquerade, Jack, Junk Dealer)
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I made Robber Baron. I just sort of threw it together. I hindsight, it's kinda shitty.
I like the basic idea of a card where you discard a Ruins for some sort of benefit, but it needed to be much stronger as this card was no better than Militia if you connect it with a Ruins (assuming the Ruins you gained would've been a Copper), and dead otherwise.
I can imagine it working if the discard wasn't contingent on discarding a Ruins, and discarding got you $4, though maybe that is too strong as it makes it easy to repeatedly get to $5 even with a rubbish hand.
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I made Sacrifice.
The hardest was to choose the name.
The card itself seemed pretty nice to me. I first thought to "trash a card from your hand => gain a spoils" but I didn't like it for $4 and I thought it needed a small bonus. Then I gave it +$2, raised it to $5.
Then I realized a card that gives you $2 in Dark ages, with theme of poverty, it's pretty rare. But hey, there's already Counterfeit that may give you many purchase power, and Altar, so why not ?
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Any word on when the results will be up?
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Any word on when the results will be up?
Hmm, I could do that. Or I could play the demo for the new Ace Attorney game.
I love that series.
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OK, I have tallied the votes. Full results later, but for now, the winner.
This time we had a tie between two cards. I once again broke it with my vote after the rest had been tallied.
The winner, with 14 votes, is Mortuary, by Markusin!
The runner up, with 13 votes, is Renovate, by Robz888!
In third place, with 11 votes, we have Incendiarist, by GwinnR!
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The Secret History of My Vote
I voted for Mortuary because Renovate is way too close to a Dark Ages outtake. A Dark Ages outtake which was itself called Renovate.
Renovate
Types: Action
Cost: $5
{+1 Action.} Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it, putting it into your hand.
- There was a Remodel that put the card into your hand. Originally it didn't give +1 Action; then it did and was crazy.
I don't think Robz's Renovate really fixes the issues this card had. I don't think the issues are insurmountable, but I also don't think bumping the cost and effect down by $1 are enough to fix it.
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Let my weeping commence.
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Let my weeping commence.
I'm curious: did you intentionally try to fix up the Dark Ages outtake of the same name, or is it a coincidence that your card has the same name and function?
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Let my weeping commence.
I'm curious: did you intentionally try to fix up the Dark Ages outtake of the same name, or is it a coincidence that your card has the same name and function?
Coincidence. I've never heard of or seen the card you mentioned!
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Wait, the results aren't up yet?
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I'm happy that you liked my card:
Incendiarist
Types: Action Attack Looter
Cost: $5
You may trash a card from your hand. If it is an
Action card, each other player gains a Ruins; Treasure card, gain a Spoils from the Spoils pile; Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.
Secret History and my thoughts:
As someone assumed, I used a German-English-Dictionnary (http://dict.leo.org/) for the name. It should be someone who set fire to buildings and other things. The dictionnary says also incendiary, firebug, fire raiser, firestarter, arsonist and torch. I don't really care about the name, so if someone wants to use this card, feel free to rename it. But I don't think it needs "Iron" in his name, because it gives not the real "Iron-"effects like Ironmonger and Ironworks. It is more like Transmute and Tribute which have the same idea, but give other effects. Maybe this card should start with "T" ;-)
But for an attack and to have kind of iron, we can also name it "Arms Dealer".
To the pricing:
I don't understand, how this could be to strong. Every other Curser (Witch, Mountebank,...) or Looter (Cultist) slogs the deck much more. Normally you only distribute 3 Curses, don't want to trash action cards and Spoils are not so hot. Of course you can choose, which is nice, but I think not so important.
Maybe it is too weak (arguments above). I think this has to be tested. But it is interesting, that many people think it is too strong and many people think it is too weak. Maybe it is just right ;-)
I like cards like Ironmonger and Ironworks, where you get a profit of the cards you gain or have in deck. So why not making something similar with trashing cards? First i wanted to make it just like Ironmonger with +1 Action; +1 card; +$1, but it is not so Dark Age-like. So I decided to use Ruins and Spoils. And as "normal" action cards give actions cards (Ruins), treasure cards give money (Spoils) and it is something different with victory cards (normally cards, but here Curses).
Now I think it should be changed, to make it more interesting. Victories-->Ruins; Actions-->Curses; Treasures-->Spoils. So you get more, when you trash something better. Normally you don't want to trash actions, but if you do, the others get Curses. And you start trashing Estates, which distributes Ruins, which can be trashed for distributing Curses.
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Wait, the results aren't up yet?
Patience, young Padawan. Oh, and congrats to the winner (and runners up).
Also, because it seems like everyone else went through the "this was my card" post, I made Blood Feud. Never really liked the name, but I liked the idea that it signified that vengeance was destructive for both you and your opponent.
I seem to be good at picking obvious ideas; my card was one of the zillion woodcutter variants from the last contest, and now I was one of the several people who submitted "helpful ruins" cards. Ironically, I decided on a "helpful ruins" approach after my last card was criticized for being too boring and I wanted to do something "different."
The idea of a self-junker seems (and apparently was) obvious, but it runs into the problem that it needs some way of clearing away the ruins; that suggested letting it trash ruins as well (and play them while it's at it, so you get something). Once that's established, I figured "why not make it a power-trasher in it's own right". Which is how the "reveal up to 3 cards, play any actions, then trash the revealed cards" language came about. I toyed with the right number of cards to trash, and settled on 3; one less than Chapel but one more than Steward. I quickly realized that the "cannibal village" aspect was the most interesting part, but left the self-junking in mainly so it would still have some use (collide 2 Blood Feuds and it becomes a weak Junker for your opponents, and either way your deck is still getting some lint for you to clean out) later in the game (before your final mega-turn, when it's essentially "+3 actions"). That's why it has a few weak vanilla bonuses on the first option, so that you get something ok from colliding the 2 cards.
I like the "cannibal village" idea in the abstract, but feel like it needs some way of getting actions into your deck that you want to trash (either by self-junking, or by junking your opponent) or else it basically becomes a weak Chapel; that's honestly the main reason why I didn't dump the self-ruins effect.
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Congrats to Markusin and Mortuary!
Now I'm (sort of) sad that I submitted the card I did (Carpenter). I was planning on submitting a different card, but changed my mind after asking WW for advice (not blaming WW, he had good insights!). Anyway, here's the card I almost submitted, which is a lot like Mortuary:
Academy
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions
+$1
Trash a card from your hand. If you trash a card costing at least $3, then +3 Cards.
It's obviously somewhat different, but has a lot of the same ideas. I was planning on submitting this to DA Round 2, but now it would look too similar to Mortuary :(
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My card was Barrister (and Claim). I knew a trashing attack would be a tough sell, but I wasn't expecting zero votes. :'(
Barrister
Types: Action Attack
Cost: $5
+2 Cards. Each player (including you) reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
Setup: Replace one of each player's starting Coppers with a Claim.
Claim
Types: Treasure
Cost: $0
Worth $1. When you play this, look through your discard pile. You may trash a Claim from your discard pile or hand. If you do, gain a Gold, putting it into your hand.
Clarification: In a 6-player game, the starting player does not replace a Copper with a Claim.
Anyhow, as I mentioned in a previous thread, this wasn't a bona-fide submission, and I would have disqualified it had it won. It's actually for my expansion, Enterprise, where there is enough room for 6 copies of Claim. I submitted it to this contest for feedback because it seemed to fit the expansion (trashing Attack, starting deck change, gaining from the trash).
First of all, I want it to be known that I have nothing against Lawyers; I do not think they are all thieves. The card's pre-Guilds name was Tax Collector. Once Taxman was revealed, I needed another name that would work with the get-other-players'-Claims mechanic. "Historian" didn't sound Dominion-y to me. I had it named "Assessor" for a while, but I really didn't love that name either. Eventually I hit upon "Barrister" and went with it. I think it sounds more Dominion-y than "Lawyer", but that could just be because I live in the U.S. where "Barrister" isn't really in the vernacular.
As for the card itself
One day I hit upon a cool twist for a trashing attack: trying to get a card that you could only find in other players' decks. The smoothest way to make this happen was to have a Copper replacement that you needed two of to activate. Unfortunately, this naturally led to at Thief-like card, so already it's scoring low on the popularity ladder. Do you have any idea how hard it is to make a Thief variant that costs $4 and isn't strictly better than Thief? Noble Brigand should give you some idea. To differentiate it, I decided to make it cost $5 and beef it up a little. Unfortunately, this just led to everyone calling it a "Super-Thief".
The card has to be able to get any Treasure from the trash, rather than just the ones it trashed itself. Otherwise your opponents could just be all, "I just Upgraded my Claim, lolz, try to steal it now." Here's something nobody noticed: unlike Thief, Barrister can only gain a single card per play, even in a game with more than 2 players. So it's not really strictly better than Thief, even at $5.
Aaaaaanyhow, the version I have printed out has the +2 Cards, but doesn't allow you to trash your own Treasures and doesn't allow you to choose not to trash your opponent's Treasures. So it's even closer to Thief. Luckily this contest wasn't a total bust for Barrister in terms of feedback. WanderingWinder's analysis has convinced me that +2 Cards is too strong. I believe I'll try this version next:
Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may choose a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a Treasure from the trash.
+$2 instead of +2 Cards makes it less easy to build an engine that just spams Barristers. It might still be too strong, but hopefully not.
As for Claim, I was surprised to hear many people say that it wouldn't be worth gaining another "Copper". That seems ridiculous. If you already have a Claim and gain a second one, that second one is basically a Gold. Heck, if you have one Claim in your hand when you steal the other one, that's pretty much a free Gold (in your hand!) right there. That seems worth it to me. If you don't think stealing Gold with Thief is worth it, then I don't know what to tell you.
Anyhow, thanks to everybody who gave feedback on the card. At this point I'm honestly considering scrapping it from Enterprise, but I'm not sure yet. Some people like the concept and some just didn't think it belonged in Dark Ages, which is totally fine. It would be nice to have a trashing attack in my set and I haven't thought of a better one yet, so I'm on the fence.
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OK, I have tallied the votes. Full results later, but for now, the winner.
This time we had a tie between two cards. I once again broke it with my vote after the rest had been tallied.
The winner, with 14 votes, is Mortuary, by Markusin!
The runner up, with 13 votes, is Renovate, by Robz888!
In third place, with 11 votes, we have Incendiarist, by GwinnR!
Oh gosh, wow I just felt it in my heart that the results would end up like this (tiebreaker with my card)! I'd like to thank LastFootnote for organizing this contest and not denying my card the tie breaking vote a second time. I owe you one for that. I also want to thank everyone who voted. YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST!
Now that my Oscar speech is over. I can talk about this card a bit.
The Secret History of Mortuary:
Its history is rather short, actually.
The first clear idea I came up with for a Dark Ages card was one that gave you a bonus when you trashed a card while it was in play. I thought about having it give coin for half the cost of the trashed card, but that seemed hard to balance and track in the end. Imagine buying a mint with 4 Platinums while 2 of these were in play. I settled on card draw in the end, because its arguably the easiest to balance and track. Card draw can't make your turn any better than the best that the rest of your deck can do, and card draw is a do-it-and-forget mechanic.
It's too bad that the "while in play" stack potential wasn't obvious on the card. A lot of people seemed to interpret it as an "if you do" effect on its own card trashing. I could have added a clarification saying "When you trash 2 or more cards simultaneously, draw a card for each trashed card".
The version I submitted is in fact the only version I playtested. I designed it that way because I wanted to balance the card around celebrating Dark Ages. You get a boost for doing crazy stuff with TfB, Fortress, Procession, Rats, and 1-shots. You're not rewarded to trashing a bunch of Coppers and Curses with Forge or something. If it did, I'd probably have to give it a watered down bottom effect like Alehouse's cycling. That's not so fun.
It also turns out that being able to trash from the discard non-terminally is itself a pretty decent ability. It wasn't too much worse than Junk Dealer (a really good card) when it's the only trasher, and it still kinda stacks over itself. A potentially good buy in junking games. When there are other cool trashers, having Mortuary be able to trash from the discard to help you get the ball rolling.
And about the $2-cost over 1$-cost restriction, well gosh Overgrown Estate gives you a card anyway when you trash it. Also, player's often keep their Necropolis. Hovel at least gives a way to trash it on it's own.
Someone suggested (I think it was Nic) that this card can maybe give the bonus whenever a non-Copper card is trashed. That might not be bad. I do suspect that activating the bottom effect for all card trashes is too strong, given this card's blitzing potential.
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Congrats to Markusin and Mortuary!
Now I'm (sort of) sad that I submitted the card I did (Carpenter). I was planning on submitting a different card, but changed my mind after asking WW for advice (not blaming WW, he had good insights!). Anyway, here's the card I almost submitted, which is a lot like Mortuary:
Academy
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+2 Actions
+$1
Trash a card from your hand. If you trash a card costing at least $3, then +3 Cards.
It's obviously somewhat different, but has a lot of the same ideas. I was planning on submitting this to DA Round 2, but now it would look too similar to Mortuary :(
Sorry about that. Was that the card you preferred over the similar card in the ballot? It's similar, and seems pretty good for Dark Ages. I wonder what sort of criticisms it did/would have received.
Really, I'm surprised the only other card with a while in play effect that cared about trashed cards was Alehouse. That's some unexplored design space.
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Let my weeping commence.
I feel for you, man. I went through the same thing after the Hinterlands results were posted.
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I did Smelter (B). It was thrown together at the last minute when I decided I didn't really like my other ideas.
I spent a while trying to come up with a trash attack that didn't completely suck to be hit with. The idea I almost went with was a forced demodel (everyone else trashes a card from their hand and gains a card costing less than it or zero). Something like "Each other player draws up to 5 cards in their hand and then trashes a card from their hand and gains a card of their choice costing less than the trashed card or 0.". Giving them five cards to choose from stops the forced trashing from being really sucky.
The issue is that in the stated form, it'll probably just be a cutpurse. Could even help the other guy if they have curses in hand. Could add a "no trashing curses" rule, but that makes it wordy. Forcing the trashed card to cost $1 or $2 now makes the trash effect suckier. Draw KC C C C C and get hit with this and well damn. Maybe I could've done "Discards a curse from hand, or trashes a card other than a curse of their choice costing less than the trashed card or 0". That way you can't get rid of curses, but KC Curse Curse Curse Curse doesn't screw with you but ultimately I decided that forced trashing was just never much fun and I should go with the boring alternative.
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Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a card from the trash.
Is this a typo, or are you really planning on having it be able to gain any card from the trash? Doesn't that have the "TFB-a-Province" problems that were discussed in this thread, except worse, since this card doesn't trash your own Province?
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+1 to LF for the theme with Barrister. I said I would do it. :P
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Barrister
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck; you may a revealed Treasure for him to trash. He discards the rest. You may gain a card from the trash.
Is this a typo, or are you really planning on having it be able to gain any card from the trash? Doesn't that have the "TFB-a-Province" problems that were discussed in this thread, except worse, since this card doesn't trash your own Province?
Ah, thanks. I typed that up quick from memory. Any Treasure card.
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Congrats markusin!
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Congrats to markusin, of course :)
My card was Garderobe, and I am still proud of it. I made it as a Ruins-for-Benefit because I thought a lot of people would and I wanted to get my 2 cents in. I actually really dislike self-junking fan cards in general, but I think my solution is fairly novel. I tried to make the card good on its own, but still incorporate ruins into its central concept. I am actually surprised at the wide variety of responses I got, ranging from "ridiculously weak" to "possibly really strong," and I am shocked that no one pointed out what I think is the cards biggest fallacy: It's swinginess based on the board. Some kingdoms it will be awful, which is fine, but in a game with Courtyard or Chapel, yikes.
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The Secret History of Condottiero
If you were involved in this thread here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3505.0), you probably deduced that Condottiero was my card. I got into a discussion with eHalc about Soothsayer (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jny289w1zouvpn1/Soothsayer.png) (LastFootnote's card) and whether the decisions you were forced to make justified the wall of text on the card. In order to keep your deck from being junked, you had to discard treasure every single turn until the end of the game. If you whiffed once, or bought a Province on turn 15 instead of discarding down to $7, then end result was the same as if you never bothered with the effect to begin with. Other people disagreed, but it seemed obvious to me that the optimal strategy was to completely ignore the discard option on nearly every board, in which case they had something identical to a $4 Witch. I also had a personal prejudice against Duchess, apparently, because I did everything I could think of to kill the ''In games using this, . . ." clause.
I tried to come up with a scenario where I would be willing to use the discard, with the knowledge that I wouldn't be able to keep it up for the whole of the game. What I realized is that it could be useful when you're at the bottom of your deck and you have a spare Copper. If you can delay the Curse for a turn or two, you can cause it to miss the reshuffle. The variant I liked best (although obviously it took liberties with the spirit and the letter of the original card) was to gain the Curse immediately no matter what you did, but give you a free reshuffle if you decided to discard. People had already suggested renaming the card Loan Shark, and this seemed to still be thematic with the new name; you delay the painful part of the card by giving up money when you encounter it.
We already had our share of $4 Cursers filling the Witch-with-a-nerf role, but there was still space in the Looters. Maybe it was that the extortion theme fit better in a military setting than a mystical one. For some reason, the card seemed more interesting to me giving out Ruins than Curses. So that gives me "Each player may discard a Treasure. If he does, he puts his deck into his discard pile and immediately reshuffles.
Each other player gains a Ruins."
It needs to do something for your economy as well; if you slap a +$2 on that, it might be playable at $3 or at $4, but still missing something. I could add more bonuses to the top; +Buy is a good way to turn a weak $4 into a strong $4, and +2 Buys is something only Dark Ages can do. Later, when I was actually typing up my submission in a PM, I started thinking about what I could do to make my card less vanilla. On-trash effects were on theme, and one of those would help my card stand out in the crowd, right? :P I thought about what I'd like most when I buy an attack card and then proceed to lose the Curse split: if I don't clear out the junker as well as the junk, I'm gonna fall too far behind. A Woodchopper that benefits other players is better than a dead Sea Hag, but it's still not a power card. Obviously a Sea Hag that has the option to self-trash is too good, but why not give you a free trash when you do get rid of it? (As it turns out, on-trash effects do not make a card unique in a DA fan card contest.)
When I decided to submit the card, I started flipping through a thesaurus to find synonyms for words like mercenary and soldier. I considered 'Landsknecht' for a while, but nothing else was good. Wikipedia turned out to be my savior here; the condottieri were mercenary commanders contracted by the city-states in Renaissance Italy to fight their wars, and they quickly gained a reputation for cutting deals with their enemies in the field. It might be a little over the Margrave threshold, but it was just so perfect that I couldn't resist.
The thing I liked most about it was that it's kind of a gateway drug to playing Chancellor. It gives you an immediate, concrete problem that can be solved with a reshuffle, and tossing a surplus copper from hand is a much lower opportunity cost than choosing to buy a terminal silver over a real one. I ended up not voting for it, as no one else seemed interested in it. The main criticism was that there was a semi-interesting idea buried under a lot of bloat, and that isn't false at all. Depending on how well it did (and whether repeat entries are encouraged or discouraged) I might submit it to the next DA contest with one little buff, rather than two.
Fun Wikipedia fact for people from the Hinterlands contest: there's a very old card game called Lansquenet (named after the German landsknechts) which is literally just the European variant of Oicho-Kabu. You play a card and then reveal copies from the top of the deck, going bust on the first match.
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Results are up! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9360.msg291131#msg291131) Because I have less time than I did, I didn't repost every card's text again. Instead there's just a table. I hope that's OK with everyone!
Congratulations to markusin!
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Results are up! (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9360.msg291131#msg291131) Because I have less time than I did, I didn't repost every card's text again. Instead there's just a table. I hope that's OK with everyone!
I actually like the table a lot better as it makes it easy to compare results quickly. Thanks again for organizing this!
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If you whiffed once, or bought a Province on turn 15 instead of discarding down to $7, then end result was the same as if you never bothered with the effect to begin with.
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+Buy is a good way to turn a weak $4 into a strong $4, and +2 Buys is something only Dark Ages can do.
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I ended up not voting for it, as no one else seemed interested in it.
The thing about Soothsayer is certainly not true. If you keep the Curses out of your deck until turn 15, you've had at least 15 turns with a clean deck. Curses usually matter most because of clogging up your hands. Even if you let the Curses in before the end of the game, you'll have had many turns without them slowing down your shuffles and making your hands worse. Whether that's worth discarding a Copper (or other Treasure) is not at all clear, but the end result is not "the same as if you never bothered with the effect to begin with."
There's no reason why you can't do +2 Buys outside of DA.
You should still vote for it if you like it. If you ended up not liking it so much, then that's fair. I didn't vote for my previous entries, but I voted for Soldier in this challenge because I still liked it, despite a lukewarm-at-best reception from the general public. :P FWIW, I liked Condottiero. I can't remember if I voted for it in the end (I think not), but I did like it. Letting opponents Chancellor is a really neat drawback for a junker.
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I'm pretty pleased with tied-for-fourth! :) Thanks you guys!
Bargain originated when I was thinking about a post from Greatest Dominion Moments of (I think) 2012 in which Stef revealed a trader and then a watchtower to an opponent's swindler to return his swindled silver to the top of his deck. I was thinking about if there was a way to actually get something better off of an opponents swindler.
This turned into the idea of copper-as-a-reaction, which is basically what it became. I also liked the challenge of designing something that was a pure reaction and avoiding the problems those usually have by making it almost never just a dead card. I originally priced it at $2 and then went through a brief period of idiocy in which I thought it interacted with multiple buys and therefore should cost $3. I actually dropped it to $1 specifically to nerf the reaction with cursers, which I think was a mistake.
It was too late to submit to the hinterlands contest, but I thought it fit with dark ages in that: it upgraded your cards, it cost $1, it was thematically about hunting for a bargain in impoverished times. Depending on how people feel about resubmission, I might put it in for Hinterlands II at least costing $2 and perhaps buffing it (maybe by giving it an action of its own, though I rather like pure reaction).
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The thing about Soothsayer is certainly not true. If you keep the Curses out of your deck until turn 15, you've had at least 15 turns with a clean deck. Curses usually matter most because of clogging up your hands. Even if you let the Curses in before the end of the game, you'll have had many turns without them slowing down your shuffles and making your hands worse. Whether that's worth discarding a Copper (or other Treasure) is not at all clear, but the end result is not "the same as if you never bothered with the effect to begin with."
There's no reason why you can't do +2 Buys outside of DA.
You should still vote for it if you like it. If you ended up not liking it so much, then that's fair. I didn't vote for my previous entries, but I voted for Soldier in this challenge because I still liked it, despite a lukewarm-at-best reception from the general public. :P FWIW, I liked Condottiero. I can't remember if I voted for it in the end (I think not), but I did like it. Letting opponents Chancellor is a really neat drawback for a junker.
Yeah, I really meant to say Dark Ages is the only set that has such a card in it. No idea how it got written it down like that.
I'll admit that the VP penalty on a Curse still scares me as much as the dead card does, but the two effects are equivalent to a first approximation. A Curse is a dead card in your hand, and so is a Copper or Silver that you've already decided to discard. If there are as many Curses on the mat as there are hands per shuffle (unlikely, as there won't be any trashing in the games where you want the cards to stay on your Soothsayer mat) then all you're doing is lowering the variance on the number of dead cards per hand. The problem is that there are very few reasons to do that.