Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Non-Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Twistedarcher on September 03, 2013, 02:04:21 pm
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Resistance: Avalon II
Roles:
Good
Merlin: knows who the Evil players are
Percival: knows who Merlin is
Evil
Assassin: if Evil loses, names a player, and if that player is Merlin, Evil wins
Morgana: appears to Percival alongside Merlin
Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Resistance_(game))
Players:
1) Chairs
2) WalrusmcFishSr
3) Liopoil
4) mail-mi
5) Tables
6) Jimmm
7) Yuma
Mission 1: 2 people
Mission 1, Proposal 1
Leader: Chairs
Proposed Team: Tables, Jimmmmm
Votes
Accept: Chairs, Jimmmmm
Reject: Tables, liopoil, mail-mi, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma
Proposal is rejected.
Mission 1, Proposal 2
Leader: walrusmcfishsr
Proposed team: walrus, Tables
Votes
Accept: Jimmmmm, Walrus, mail-mi
Reject: Tables, Chairs, Yuma, Liopoil
Proposal is rejected.
Mission 1 Proposal 3
Leader: Liopoil
Proposed Team: mail-mi, Liopoil
Votes:
Accept: Liopoil, Mail-mi
Reject: Chairs, Jimmm, WalrusmcFishSr, Yuma, Tables
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 1 Proposal 4
Leader: mail-mi
Proposed Team: mail-mi, Tables
Votes
Accept: Chairs, Mail-mi
Reject: Liopoil, Jimmm, WalrusmcFishSr, Yuma, Tables
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 1 Proposal 5
Leader: Tables
Proposed Team: Tables, Liopoil
Accept: Everyone
Mission 1 Results: Pass, pass
Mission 1 is successful!
Mission 2: 3 people
Mission 2, Proposal 1
Leader: Jimmmmm
Proposed Team: Tables, Liopoil, Yuma
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, WalrusmcfishSr, Yuma
Reject: Tables, Chairs, mail-mi, Jimmmm
Proposal is rejected.
Mission 2 Proposal 2
Leader: Yuma
Proposed Team: Liopoil, mail-mi, Yuma
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, yuma, mail-mi, chairs
Reject: Tables, Jimmmmm, WalrusMcFishSr
Proposal is Accepted
Mission 2 results: Pass, pass, Fail
Mission 2 has failed!
Mission 3: 3 people
Mission 3 Proposal 1
Leader: Chairs
Proposed Team: Chairs, Tables, WalrusMcFishSr
Votes
Accept: No one
Reject: Everyone
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 3 Proposal 2
Leader: WalrusmcFishSr
Proposed Team: Liopoil, Tables, WalrusMcFishSr
Votes
Accept: WalrusMcFishSr, Liopoil, Chairs
Reject: Tables, Jimmmmm, Mail-mi, Yuma
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 3 Proposal 3
Leader: Liopoil
Proposed Team: Liopoil, Tables, Jimmm
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, Jimmmm
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi, Yuma
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 3 Proposal 4
Leader: Mail-mi
Proposed Team: Mail-mi, Tables, Walrus
Votes
Accept: Mail-mi
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Liopoil, Yuma, Jimmmmm
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 3 Proposal 5
Leader: Tables
Proposed Team: Mail-mi, Tables, Walrus
Votes
Accept: Everyone
Reject: No one
Proposal is Accepted
Mission 3 Results: Pass, pass, pass
Mission 3 is successful!
Mission 4: 4 people (two fails required)
Mission 4 Proposal 1
Leader: Jimmmmm
Proposed Team: Jimmmmm, Tables, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi
Votes
Accept: Jimmmm
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi, Yuma, Liopoil
Proposal is Rejected
Mission 5: 4 people
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/in
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I think I will play
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/in. I'd prefer no plot cards - But some roles would be nice. I liked the avalon ones, but I'm sure there's a whole world of other roles too just like in mafia, so I'm fine with whatever for that.
Although, I guess I'm not sure exactly what plot cards are. So maybe :P
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ugh, these games are just sooo hard for me. I can't figure them out.
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Always /in!
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/in
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I voted for all of the Avalon roles, but any combination of them is fine.
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/in. I'd prefer no plot cards - But some roles would be nice. I liked the avalon ones, but I'm sure there's a whole world of other roles too just like in mafia, so I'm fine with whatever for that.
Although, I guess I'm not sure exactly what plot cards are. So maybe :P
There's not actually much more than what we had in that last game. The two big missing things we had were Lancelot (two roles, one is generally good, one is generally evil, but which is which can switch around before missions 3-5 meaning they have uncertain loyalties) and Excalibur (when proposing a mission you must give Excalibur to someone. They can choose to use it on another player to look at the mission card that player submitted, but then must swap the card for the unplayed card (pass <=> fail)).
Asides from that there's plot cards, which are a deck of special effects which the first leader on a mission draws from and uses. They have various effects - some are one time bonuses, others are permanent effects. The number of cards drawn depends on player count (2 per mission in 7 player). Plot cards apparently don't integrate especially well with Avalon, but it's possible. I've never done it.
I'm going to put myself down as a possible 7th player if you need to fill the numbers, but otherwise won't play. I would be happy to play but would also like to be an informed observer.
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As much as I want to play, I'm going to /out.
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What's Resistance?
I might be /in. If not, I want to at least /tag.
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What's Resistance?
I might be /in. If not, I want to at least /tag.
It's a mafia-esque game of social deduction. A number of players will secretly be spies, trying to sabotage the resistance. Players take turns proposing missions of varying numbers of players. People vote on if they want the missions to go ahead or not. If a mission does go ahead, then people on the mission get the choice of passing the mission, and doing what they're meant to - or sabotaging the mission secretly if they're a spy. Players find out how many times a mission was sabotaged, but not by whom. A mission only needs a single sabotage played for it to fail (usually). The resistance win by passing three missions, and spies win by sabotaging three missions.
The Avalon version introduces a few new roles which have new effects - most notably, "Merlin" who knows all the spies, who is counterbalanced by the assassin - a spy who, if the resistance passes three missions, can attempt to kill Merlin, and if she succeeds, wins the games for the spies.
That's a short overview. If you check the old Resistance threads, you can probably find rules and see examples of gameplay. The most recent game was a notably confusing one, so I'd look for very early or vanilla ones to see the basic game in action.
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If we're going to have people who haven't played before, I'd suggest just having Merlin and Percival. I think that's fairly interesting, but it's also easy to explain and remember: Spies know each other, Merlin knows the Spies but has to keep secret, and Percival knows Merlin.
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What's Resistance?
I might be /in. If not, I want to at least /tag.
Looks like you're in!
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If it was up to me, I'd say 7 players, Merlin (and Assassin) and Percival and that's it.
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It seems like there's some interest in another resistance game, post here if you would like to play. I am going to limit signups to 7 players max.
As for the setup, I'm open to run whatever the majority of players would like. I will be creating a poll with the signups -- please vote for your preferred option!
1) mail-mi
2) yuma
3) Jimmm
4) Chairs
5)
6)
7)
Need to add liopoil to this, then we only need two more players, or could even just play with 5.
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Just as a reminder, if you need one more to get to 7 I'm /in, otherwise I'm /out.
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Bump. Happy to play with 5 rather than wait.
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I'll start this by Wednesday if no one else signs up.
With 5, I'm not sure how all of the roles would work. We may just play with Merlin and Percival, if we end on 5.
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I'll start this by Wednesday if no one else signs up.
With 5, I'm not sure how all of the roles would work. We may just play with Merlin and Percival, if we end on 5.
I agree with just Merlin and Percival.
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Pretty excited about this. They say 7 is probably best, and that might be true, but I do think it works really well with 5. Plus it's nice only to have 4 people to keep track of.
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WalrusMcFishSr is /in, triggering the karma effect of Tables!
...Tables is /in!
...7 players have joined the game!
Haha I got bored waiting for that other one. Figure I'd try this on for size too.
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(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)
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Tables are you in?
I will set this up when I'm home next, so hopefully tonight
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I have been spy both resistance games. If you make me a spy, I will not be happy.
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I have been spy both resistance games. If you make me a spy, I will not be happy.
Dibs Merlin or Percival.
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I have been spy both resistance games. If you make me a spy, I will not be happy.
Dibs Merlin or Percival.
Dibs other one.
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Well then /in. I can't say no to a Karma effect, can I?
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Setup started. We are going to use Merlin and Percival.
EDIT -- and Morgana! Sorry for not making this clear!!
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PMs going out. Please confirm, once all are confirmed, we will start. Until then,
Thread Locked!!
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PMs are out. Please note in addition to using Merlin and Percival, Morgana was included for balancing purposes. Sorry for the confusion!
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Waiting for one player.
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Ready to go!
Player order is as follows:
Chairs
WalrusmcFishSr
Liopoil
mail-mi
Tables
Jimmm
Yuma
I will always list players in player order.
Each leader will have 48 hours to propose a team for the current quest, by posting Propose: Player1, Player2, Player3 in-thread. Players will then have 24 hours to vote Approve or Reject by PM to me. If the proposal is approved by receiving at least 4 Approve votes, then each player on the mission will have 24 hours to send Succeed or Fail by PM to me. I will then announce how many Successes and how many Fails were played. Each mission requires only one Fail to fail, except mission 4, which requires two. The above deadlines will not have strict punishments, but players will be expected to adhere to them unless they have a valid IRL reason why they can't. Repeated or extended delays without explanation from any player may result in me looking for a substitute.
Most importantly:
No communication by players about this game outside of this thread. This includes to other f.ds members (other than myself of course).
No discussion of role card artwork or role PM flavour.
The missions are as follows:
Mission 1: 2 people
Mission 2: 3 people
Mission 3: 3 people
Mission 4: 4 people (two fails required to fail)
Mission 5: 4 people
random.org has selected Chairs to be our first leader.
Chairs has 48 hours to propose a team of two people to go on the first mission.
Game on.
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First!
chairs, pick me!
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So from a neutral point of view there are 35 possible Spy teams.
From the point of view of a Vanilla Good Guy, there are 20 possible Spy teams.
From the point of view of Percival, there are 12 possible Spy teams.
A funny thing about this game is that out of the 7 of us, only 3 of us don't know what the Spy team is.
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I think something we need to keep in mind when choosing teams to go on Missions is to eliminate as many teams as possible. Chances are, with Merlin and Percival around, we'll end up picking the right team by the end. We just need all the non-Merlin Good Guys to do their fair share so Merlin doesn't have to work too hard to get us there.
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Yeah, we can spyteam hunt for sure this game.
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Yeah, picking out spyteams is definitely going to be useful. But it's pretty common for spies to not work entirely together - bussing is very common, and they already know we're gonna be looking for spy teams.
I agree with Jimmmmm about Merlin+Percival. Last game, I was Percival, and I picked out Merlin (nkirbit) from Morgana (mail-mi) by about mission 1.4 because it was clear (to me) that nkirbit knew something about mail-mi, while mail-mi knew nothing about nkirbit. Here I think Percival's job is going to be MUCH harder.
Percival needs to try and look like Merlin ideally. Merlin getting assassinated is a sad way to lose, but Percival has a good chance of getting assassinated, if he plays well. It'll probably be hard to identify Merlin, but the sooner Percival can do it, the better.
Also Merlin needs to be very careful. Last game, all three spies had nkirbit pegged as Merlin, despite me doing what I thought was a decent job of covering for him. Merlin should be very careful about his reads - don't be correct all the time (unless you should WIFOMWIFOMWIFOM). Make mistakes, just like everyone else. But then throw down that clean proposal just as it's needed.
Us generic Resistance members (which is my claim, just like it always is - except when I need to be either Percival or Merlin, in which case, I'm one of those) need to be careful as well - it's good if you can cover for Merlin as well, but in doing so you can often accidentally make it obvious you aren't him. Also, remember that there are people in this game with more knowledge than you who (Merlin especially), so don't think that just because someone knows more than you they're automatically scum. Merlin looks as much like a spy as the spies do, by certain measures.
Now that basic role advice is out of the way, it's mission 1. I have the hammer. Yay! Mission 1.1, Tables+Chairs, furniture unite. Who could possibly say no?
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Make mistakes, just like everyone else. But then throw down that clean proposal just as it's needed.
That's a lot easier said than done. When I'm a Spy IRL, a big Merlin tell that I look out for is someone who ums and ahs and then just somehow gets it right. Merlin has to work his way up to it - it can't come out of left-field.
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Hmm, yeah. It can vary. I mean I'm not saying when it comes around to your proposal you just go: "Propose: X, Y, Z, me, this is clean." You can still say you're uncertain, debating between two people, do what any rebel would do in that situation. That last bit is really key. Ignore what you know, Merlin. Focus on who makes scummy remarks, or does scummy things, or just scumhunt in your normal way, and give those reads out.
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Oh also the Poll can be removed now methinks.
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Oh also the Poll can be removed now methinks.
I swear I did this one second before you posted.
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Hm, I don't know if I believe that. FoS: TwistedArcher
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Hey wow! The game started.
I've never played this game before, so please excuse me if I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed here. Also, I'm pretty sure most of you have some experience playing each other, and are picking up on subtle leads based on that. Me, I have zero data points to work with, so I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute in that regard for a while.
Anyway just wanted to pop in and establish a data point! I'll think of something more useful to say later.
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Haha I didn't mean to kill the discussion! In case it wasn't clear, the data point I was attempting to convey was "bad sense of humor"
Oh-ho, or did I possibly set off a flurry of sinister behind-the-scenes discussion with my off-handed quip? QUITE LIKELY I THINK!
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Interesting. Walrus, are you claiming not to know that Spies don't have a QT?
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Here I think Percival's job is going to be MUCH harder.
Why?
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Interesting. Walrus, are you claiming not to know that Spies don't have a QT?
Oh. I, uh, thought they did. Shows what I know.
Again, excuse my potential terribleness at this game.
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Here I think Percival's job is going to be MUCH harder.
Why?
I was thinking with there being fewer people Merlin would know (Oberon+Morgana), it'd be easier for him to subtly indicate to Percival that he knows Morgana while Morgana doesn't know him. Here with their being three spies, in particular being three spies that all know each other, Merlin trying to hint the above would be suicide.
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OH GOD DECISIONS!
Since it's only 2 people, I think we can assume that the spies won't fail a mission so early, right? So let's go ahead and..
propose jimmmmm, tables go on the mission.
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Oh man, I missed the chairs+table option, I'm dumb.
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Chairs any particular reason for that combo? Or just random? Just curious really and trying to get my bearings. Is it customary/wise to nominate one's self on these missions? I'm coming up soon to propose.
Should we possibly wait for the others to speak up? I was reading some of the other Mafia threads and it seems people don't generally care for lurkers...maybe we should give them a chance to contribute?
Of course, probably the best thing for me to do is shut up :P But where's the fun in that eh?
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Well, Jim asked and tables was kind of a random pick. I feel like mission 1 is one of those where it's not super important to 'get it right' because I'd be amazed to see any fails on mission 1 regardless.
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Oh I see...I was sort of under the impression that baddies were obligated to fail. So I suppose ceding the first mission would probably be worth it for the possibility of masquerading as a good guy? Are there 3 people on Mission 2?
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That's my understanding,yes
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Eh, okay. Proposing without yourself because of a misunderstanding, that's fine. In fact there's often some good reasons to not include onself on M1 anyway. Jimmm is an interesting pick, there's actually some arguably strategic grounding for picking him actually (asides from the fact he's sounded generally helpful so far), in that if this mission does pass he's proposing 2.5 next round. But uh this mission probably won't go ahead, so whatever.
M1 does indeed often pass. I haven't looked to see if any stats have been gathered, but I wouldn't be surprised if the win rates in 7P for an M1 pass (with spy on team) and M1 fail are about even.
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Mission 1, Proposal 1 has been proposed. Please send me your votes by 11:00 am Friday.
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Tables, what "misunderstanding" are you referring to exactly? Just the fact that he missed your furniture team combo? Why do you suppose this mission will be rejected? Do you plan on voting to reject it?
Please don't interpret these questions as accusations--I'm just genuinely curious as to your reasoning!
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I'm not cool with random proposals very much, and it's M1.1.
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I'm not cool with random proposals very much, and it's M1.1.
OK, what would you suggest then? Wait a bit and see how things evolve?
I would think that if there were ever a time for random proposals, it would be 1.1.
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I'm not cool with random proposals very much, and it's M1.1.
OK, what would you suggest then? Wait a bit and see how things evolve?
I would think that if there were ever a time for random proposals, it would be 1.1.
Well, true, but we also have missions 1.2 to 1.5 to choose from.
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Tables, what "misunderstanding" are you referring to exactly? Just the fact that he missed your furniture team combo? Why do you suppose this mission will be rejected? Do you plan on voting to reject it?
Please don't interpret these questions as accusations--I'm just genuinely curious as to your reasoning!
Misunderstanding: I presume Chairs missed that he could put himself on the mission. Or at least that's the impression I got from his reaction pretty soon after he proposed.
I think the mission will be voted down because it's M1.1. That means at the very least:
There are five people not on the mission who might vote no so they can be on the mission
There are four people who would propose a mission later this round who might want to propose a mission this round
The more proposals there are with legitimate votes, the more information this generates for the resistance. Voting no by default unless you trust this mission is MUCH better for resistance than voting yes by default unless you don't trust it.
I'm rejecting because of the second point. I have the hammer (proposal 5). On mission 1, okay, that's not a big deal, but it's still an advantage and it's still a reason for me to reject most proposals.
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That sounds reasonable. Unless somebody makes a compelling argument otherwise, I will be voting to reject this proposal.
Where do you suppose the others are anyway? In some exotic time zone perhaps? Occupied by other engagements? Or possibly...MATURING THEIR DIABOLICAL PLANS!?!?
Lol I jest of course...mostly...
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How about we don't reveal how we are going to be voting in-thread. I know that helped me as a spy last game.
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Oh ok. I thought that the votes were revealed after having been tabulated? I figured that info would come to light soon anyway.
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They will be revealed - the idea is to make it harder for spies to choose how to vote.
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Yeah, I agree with Lio, even though I've revealed how I'm voting. But eh, it's M1.1.
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Very sensible.
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Tables, what "misunderstanding" are you referring to exactly? Just the fact that he missed your furniture team combo? Why do you suppose this mission will be rejected? Do you plan on voting to reject it?
Please don't interpret these questions as accusations--I'm just genuinely curious as to your reasoning!
Misunderstanding: I presume Chairs missed that he could put himself on the mission. Or at least that's the impression I got from his reaction pretty soon after he proposed.
I think the mission will be voted down because it's M1.1. That means at the very least:
There are five people not on the mission who might vote no so they can be on the mission
There are four people who would propose a mission later this round who might want to propose a mission this round
The more proposals there are with legitimate votes, the more information this generates for the resistance. Voting no by default unless you trust this mission is MUCH better for resistance than voting yes by default unless you don't trust it.
I'm rejecting because of the second point. I have the hammer (proposal 5). On mission 1, okay, that's not a big deal, but it's still an advantage and it's still a reason for me to reject most proposals.
When you say you have the hammer, does that mean we auto-accept your mission if nobody else's goes through?
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Yes. It's a reasonable useful position to have. Missions often don't go to proposal 5, unless that person is trusted, but when they do it gives that person the freedom to propose whatever they want. That's obviously good for someone regardless of their allegiance.
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How about we don't reveal how we are going to be voting in-thread. I know that helped me as a spy last game.
Can you give specific examples from last game where this happened?
Because honestly I kinda disagree. I know I am coming into this game as a newbie, but I think not having an in-thread discussion helps evil more than good.
Here is my thinking.
If all discussion is held back a spy can put down a vote. Once the votes come in that person is free to explain however he wants why he voted. After the fact. There is no accountability.
Whereas if a discussion is held in-thread and a spy is forced to put down whether or not he is going to vote and explain why he is somewhat bound by that post. If he changes it when it actually comes time to vote, he had better have a really good reason, especially if it is the deciding vote!
Now I think it is true that spies can get an idea of how to vote based off how what the other players around them are saying. BUT! That only holds true if the spy is one of the last players to say what they are going to do. But then we can start suspecting players who hold back on their decision publicly and wait until everyone has said what they are going to do.
My thought process is this:
I think that we should have whomever is the current proposal leader also ask for players in a certain order to say whether or not they are going to accept or reject. Say chairs is the leader here. He might ask that Jimmm, Walrus, yuma, Tables, Mail-mi and lio explain how/why they are going to vote. He is likely to put players that he suspects the most toward the front and those he has good reads on toward the front (although maybe we should have someone who is not the proposal leader be the leader for vote explanations as the proposal leader is likely to have the players he has good reads on, on the mission with him). This will give us more "data points" as we can see who that player has good reads on and bad reads on. But it will also likely force players who are generally seen as scummier to take a position earlier in the game and w/o as much information. Basically this puts bad in a bind. They have to either say they will accept a mission or decline a mission w/o knowing what the current status is of the other players. After everyone has had their say they have to decide if they want to keep the accept/decline. If they want to keep it we can keep that in mind, if they want to change it... well like I said it will be a huge topic of conversation I think if someone changes their mind.
sorry for the wall of text. Maybe this has been tried in other games before, but mostly I think that having a public discourse is important as it gives us information to analyze and use on later missions.
I will say that I am somewhat suspicious of lio for suggesting it, as well as for Tables for just blindly accepting it? I wonder if lio as spy last time had a hard time coming up with whether he wanted to accept or reject mission before he knew what others around him were doing and giving reasons why? Who else was spy last game or other games? Is this something that spies struggle with? I think if I were a spy it would be something I would.
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There's lots of issues with publicly revealing votes.
First and foremost is the fact that it gives no advantage to the rebels, while giving all the advantages to the spies. What do Rebels get out of public votes before the mission goes ahead, exactly? Meanwhile, spies get to see how the voting trends are doing. If they're in a place they could easily be on the fence, they can 'decide' to vote no to a clean mission, or yes to a dirty mission, if it looks like it might go ahead or not. The most revealing pieces of data in this game are votes, and if you give spies a means to hide in them - even if it's only around 1/3rd of the time they're near the end, then that obfuscates a lot of potential information.
Secondly, it prevents any kind of honeytrap play. Making a proposal you're confident will get shot down or which is very likely to contain spies, and see who votes it up, and other similar things. These plays are often very good sources of information, but rely on voting being hidden until everyone is ready. Your proposal would make that very difficult.
Honestly, I'm just not seeing a single advantage for the resistance in always revealing votes, but it's considerably helpful to spies.
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There's lots of issues with publicly revealing votes.
First and foremost is the fact that it gives no advantage to the rebels, while giving all the advantages to the spies. What do Rebels get out of public votes before the mission goes ahead, exactly? Meanwhile, spies get to see how the voting trends are doing. If they're in a place they could easily be on the fence, they can 'decide' to vote no to a clean mission, or yes to a dirty mission, if it looks like it might go ahead or not. The most revealing pieces of data in this game are votes, and if you give spies a means to hide in them - even if it's only around 1/3rd of the time they're near the end, then that obfuscates a lot of potential information.
Secondly, it prevents any kind of honeytrap play. Making a proposal you're confident will get shot down or which is very likely to contain spies, and see who votes it up, and other similar things. These plays are often very good sources of information, but rely on voting being hidden until everyone is ready. Your proposal would make that very difficult.
Honestly, I'm just not seeing a single advantage for the resistance in always revealing votes, but it's considerably helpful to spies.
I feel like you didn't read what I wrote. But maybe you and I are missing each other somewhere.
First: I said that I think it offers an advantage because it forces a spy to take a position before he has complete knowledge.
Say there is a spy that comes online. He sees that someone proposed a mission. No one else has commented on it. He has to make a decision, accept or reject and say it publicly. And this is a pretty binding decision if you ask me because a reversal is going to bring a huge amount of scrutiny. Afterward others comment (mostly the good guys) and maybe knowing this he would have changed his mind, but now he can't, or if he does again lots of scrutiny.
Now the question arises... well how do we make sure spies always post first. Answers: we can't. But we can have players make a list of who should say whether they accept or reject publicly. If there are 3 spies and 4 resistance than 4/7 times that will be a player who is good leading that discussion. (And again we can also use that information of which player put which player in front and in the back).
To add to this discussion, I am curious why this wasn't brought up last game? Or was it? It obviously was around because lio said he gained an advantage from it. I viewed the game throughout most of it and I think throughout all of it people expressed their accept/decline decisions in-thread pretty often. I don't remember people saying "don't say anything!" My point is that having it just be scattershot probably isn't a good idea. But controlling it and harnessing it I think could have benefits.
Otherwise... what exactly are we supposed to talk about and get reads off?
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And can you clarify your second point? I am not quite following what you are saying there.
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How about we don't reveal how we are going to be voting in-thread. I know that helped me as a spy last game.
Can you give specific examples from last game where this happened?
Sure:
The last mission. If I wanted to continue pretending to be resistance, I had to keep rejecting all the proposals. Well, there came a proposal which I thought probably had oberon on it. I looked at what people said and their stances, and decided that if I accepted the proposal would very likely be approved. So I approved it. It ended up that it didn't need my vote to be approved, but anyway...
Also, in earlier missions, can't think of specific examples off the top of my head, but I know there were some proposals where what I want as a spy conflicted with what I want as a spy-pretending-to-be-resistance. By looking at how people seemed to be voting I could safely do what I would do as resistance without worrying about hurting my chances as a spy.
And well, consider this scenario:
Say I'm a spy, Jimmmmm is one of my partners, but tables isn't. So, I would love it if this mission was approved. However, if I accept it I look suspicious. But if it seems that the proposal will be rejected anyway, I can safely vote reject.
Or alternatively:
Say Jimmmm and Tables are spybuddies. As resistance, they should accept, but as spies, they don't want the mission to be approved. But since it looks like the proposal will be rejected anyway, they can safely approve the mission.
If a player says how they are voting before they vote and then they vote a different way, of course it looks suspicious. But a spy will never do that - they will just decide what they are going to do, say they will do it, then do it. I don't see why it matters if they explain them self before or after they vote.
On a completely separate note: Once a mission has been approved, no posting whatsoever until TA posts the results. We did that last game and it didn't end up mattering, but it could have.
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The issue with all the advantages you're pointing out is they're just as likely to be disadvantages when the roles flip around. Just read this:
Say there is a rebel that comes online. He sees that someone proposed a mission. No one else has commented on it. He has to make a decision, accept or reject and say it publicly. And this is a pretty binding decision if you ask me because a reversal is going to bring a huge amount of scrutiny. Afterward others comment (a mixture of opinions) and maybe knowing this he would have changed his mind, but now he can't, or if he does again lots of scrutiny.
You can see the obvious change and hopefully you can see that the logic works basically exactly the same. Whoever's committing first has less information. But why should a rebel then want to commit early. Why not comment on the team, if he feels the need, then decide how to vote later. Maybe it's M2.4, he's not on the proposal, but he has an awkward choice of, vote yes to a mission that he knows has a decent chance of failing, or vote no hoping that the next mission is better. In that situation he won't want to go first, and likely a lot of people won't.
And actually now I think about it, another major advantage is that it gives spies more room to hide co-ordination messages, if they're being forced to justify votes BEFORE missions. One potential big breakthrough resistance can get is putting multiple spies on mission, if both fail, that's a lot of information at once, and the less room spies have to try and hide a co-ordination message, the better. This is why e.g. you'll notice everyone insisting on silence after a mission goes ahead. When you're explaining your votes before making it, then it's much easier to leave a subtle hint, and further, it's basically impossible to pick out from other resistance member posts, whose posts will also look very similar.
It wasn't discussed much last game, because there wasn't much need to discuss it. It's pretty well established in the Resistance meta that it's a bad thing. The advantages to the spies are huge whenever they're voting late, and it's pretty common that a few of them will be every now and again. The advantages to the resistance, I'm still not seeing. I did read your first post, and I really don't see the advantage, because everything I think you're saying is an advantage is just as big of a disadvantage when the roles swap around.
Regarding the last point: There's lots of different things you can do with proposals. Not putting yourself on mission is always an interesting one. That really forces people to think about if they want to vote for you. Another one is proposing a mission when you have multiple spy reads on it together. That can lead to some potentially interesting votes to look back at. It's a minor point, but the more you force people to commit pre-mission, the less able those kinds of game-opening plays work.
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Wow, waking up to a maze of text.
I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.
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Wow, waking up to a maze of text.
I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.
Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.
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I tend to agree that keeping votes secret makes more sense, for what it's worth. That's why I'm not going to tell you I voted to reject this mission.
Oh shoot!
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Wow, waking up to a maze of text.
I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.
Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.
Huh. I'm a little curious that you argued the point against me+Lio so adamantly, but as soon as Jimm says little more than 'it's generally unhelpful' you back down. Not making an accusation (yet...), just thought it was strange. I'm actually reading slightly pro-resistance on you currently because, even if your idea wasn't good, you brought up the idea and argued it, putting yourself in the spotlight. But then it's still early days, reads will change massively over the course of M1 and probably M2 as well.
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Wow, waking up to a maze of text.
I agree that in general revealing how you're voting is bad for Resistance. On the other hand, it could be imperative that the vote goes a particular way, so I think arguing one way or another is sometimes necessary. But just saying, "I'm accepting/rejecting this mission" is probably very unhelpful.
Alright, I will concede to those that have more experience on this. I don't have any experience to back my points up (and maybe any experience with such an experiment would be thoroughly negative...). But I do ultimately agree with Jimmm, that just saying accept/reject has very little utility.
Huh. I'm a little curious that you argued the point against me+Lio so adamantly, but as soon as Jimm says little more than 'it's generally unhelpful' you back down. Not making an accusation (yet...), just thought it was strange. I'm actually reading slightly pro-resistance on you currently because, even if your idea wasn't good, you brought up the idea and argued it, putting yourself in the spotlight. But then it's still early days, reads will change massively over the course of M1 and probably M2 as well.
It had less to do with Jimmm's post, but more that it was the one at the bottom and so was the one that I quoted... That and I agreed with Jimmm's point about just saying accept/reject not being helpful.
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Sorry to hold things up, guys. Didn't realize I got to vote on my own proposals!
:-[
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Mission 1.1
Leader: chairs
Proposed: Jimmmmm, Tables
Accept: Jimmmmm, Chairs
Reject: Tables, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma, Mail-mi, Liopoil.
Mission rejected.
Walrus has 24 hours to propose a new team.
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Nothing too surprising. Chair's yes vote is perhaps slightly odd, but considering he proposed the mission it's pretty understandable.
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Is there a concern that it wouldn't go through? I just assumed that even if one of them werea spy, they wouldn't burn themselves on a two man mission.
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Oh boy! My turn to be Proposer Guy.
I think I'm going to go ahead and Propose 1.2: WalrusMcFishSr and Tables.
Me because, well you know, Arthur's my bro! It would seem, uh, un-knightly not to volunteer for the mission myself.
Tables because he *appears* to be dispensing helpful advice, and he's got "the hammer" so it might come down to him anyway. Seems as good a choice as any for now.
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Yes, I "appear" to be dispensing helpful advice ;D.
But yeah, getting info on the hammer is always useful, from voting patterns and the like.
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Mission 1, Proposal 2 has been proposed. Please send me your votes by 12:00 pm Saturday.
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Mission 1.2
Leader: walrusmcfishsr
Proposed: walrus, Tables
Accept: Jimmmmm, Walrus, mail-mi
Reject: Tables, Chairs, Yuma, Liopoil.
Mission rejected.
Liopoil has 24 hours to propose a new team.
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Jimmmm+mail-mi: why???
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Yeah I was sort of wondering the same thing...this vote looks a little weird to me
But what do I know honestly
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Jimmmm+mail-mi: why???
One of the first missions has to get through, right? I thought, why not this one? I don't have a problem with it.
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They've both seemed pretty Towny to me so far.
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Tables did you not want to go on the mission with me? ;(
Desiring to generally gather more information first perhaps? Or stalling until you'd get the hammer?
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tables rejected because he has the hammer, and wants to be able to decide who else is most likely to be town.
mail-mi and jimmm: but by rejecting you have a chance of getting on the mission
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mail-mi and jimmm: but by rejecting you have a chance of getting on the mission
Someone has to be willing to approve missions they're not on, or it devolves into waiting for the fifth leader to decide what we're doing. I mean, I'm not going to auto-accept all Mission 1 proposals, but I don't think auto-rejecting any proposal you're not on at this stage is the way to go.
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well, you should be more and more willing to accept proposals you aren't on the later in the proposals it is. so 3 and 4 I can see it, 1 and 2, less so.
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well, you should be more and more willing to accept proposals you aren't on the later in the proposals it is. so 3 and 4 I can see it, 1 and 2, less so.
Actually, the earlier we accept this proposal, the closer I will be to proposal 5 for Mission 2, so I'd rather this mission go through earlier.
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I think I actually get a resistance read on mail-mi for his accept. That's because as a spy the last two games his mantra was "I reject all proposals I'm not on". pretty null on everyone else. might as well propose my mission now I guess, don't think much more is going to happen
Propose Mission 1.3: Liopoil, mail-mi
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might as well propose my mission now I guess, don't think much more is going to happen
Yep, let's get this game moving.
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Tables did you not want to go on the mission with me? ;(
Desiring to generally gather more information first perhaps? Or stalling until you'd get the hammer?
Pretty much both, yes. And right now, I don't have much info on you, so it's a 50/50 shot if you're a spy or resistance.
I do actually agree with Lio, to an extent. Mail-mi played very close to his chest as a spy last game. Even when his (known) partner was on mission, he still often voted no. Now he's voting yes off mission because he thinks people look town? Perhaps it's just trying something different, but that does look kind of good to me. And I kinda get a good vibe from Lio as well for pointing it out. As a spy he'd be about to propose double spy if he's lying, which is possible but risky, and if Mail-mi is resistance, then it's kind of odd play to point out what he pointed out, when it could easily be used to slime mail-mi.
Hmm... so far I've gotten slight resistance reads from Yuma, Lio, mail-mi and to a lesser extent Jimm. At least one of those is a spy. I need to be more discerning and critical, I think.
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Oh are we posting "reads"? That sounds fun.
Here's an awesome colorized chart of my current suspicion level, with lowest on top:
WalrusMcFishSr (obvs)
Tables
liopoil
Jimmmmm
chairs
mail-mi
yuma
No offense, anyone, this is based on the barest of conjecture and gut feelings.
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Are we? No, I was just mentioning my thoughts with regard to Lio's post and then following up with another thought. But okay, earlygame, thoughts can change.
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Haha I know. I'm just excitable because it's like my first time.
Thought I'd keep the conversation moving forward at least.
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Oh man that's definitely going to the OoC quotes thread.
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Oh are we posting "reads"? That sounds fun.
yuma
No offense, anyone, this is based on the barest of conjecture and gut feelings.
I take great offense to being the color red. Great offense. Seriously. I should be blue or green or beige. Those are your options, I recommend you pick one of them.
Interestingly I think you are at the top of my suspicions list
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Oh are we posting "reads"? That sounds fun.
Here's an awesome colorized chart of my current suspicion level, with lowest on top:
WalrusMcFishSr (obvs)
Tables
liopoil
Jimmmmm
chairs
mail-mi
yuma
No offense, anyone, this is based on the barest of conjecture and gut feelings.
Hm. Do you have reasons? I personally don't find Yuma the scummier, by far.
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Oh are we posting "reads"? That sounds fun.
yuma
No offense, anyone, this is based on the barest of conjecture and gut feelings.
I take great offense to being the color red. Great offense. Seriously. I should be blue or green or beige. Those are your options, I recommend you pick one of them.
Interestingly I think you are at the top of my suspicions list
Oh ho! Fair enough honestly. These things tend to have a reciprocality to them, I suppose, and I am pretty suspicious.
Red is really very harsh. It should be more of a salmon pink.
Oh are we posting "reads"? That sounds fun.
Here's an awesome colorized chart of my current suspicion level, with lowest on top:
WalrusMcFishSr (obvs)
Tables
liopoil
Jimmmmm
chairs
mail-mi
yuma
No offense, anyone, this is based on the barest of conjecture and gut feelings.
Hm. Do you have reasons? I personally don't find Yuma the scummier, by far.
Sure, but as I said the reasons are very tenuous.
Tables seems like he has been leading the most genuine and concerted effort to help the Resistance, that's why I nominated him on the mission.
liopoil hasn't posted quite as much, but I'm feeling Resistance. The statements he made about how seeing the votes ahead of time helped him as spy rang true to me.
Jimmmmm I also think seems like Resistance but somehow my read on him is more neutral. Giving advice for proper Merlin play for example seemed useful. The fact that he (jokingly) asked to go on the first mission and then chairs nominated him seemed a little off to me.
chairs again with the odd first proposal, plus just seems a little flustered to me in general
mail-mi honestly hasn't said much...you end up down here in the "lurk zone" by default
yuma just because your posts have been kind of huge and blocky, and you took a strong position and then reversed it suddenly when it came under fire. Again not much to go on at all--really more of a salmon pink :)
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Mission 1, Proposal 3 has been made. Please get your votes in by 6 pm today.
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Mission 1 Proposal 3
Leader: Liopoil
Proposed Team: mail-mi, Liopoil
Votes:
Accept: Liopoil, Mail-mi
Reject: Chairs, Jimmm, WalrusmcFishSr, Yuma, Tables
Proposal is Rejected
Mail-mi has 24 hours to propose a team of 2 players.
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Well. It's 1.4 and its either mine or tables. Speaking of tables, I have a resistance read on him, so I think I'll propose mail-mi and tables.
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Mission 1, Proposal 4 has been proposed. Please get your votes in by 11 pm Monday.
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So we're picking between this and whatever Tables will choose. Any thought on who you'd take Tables?
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Right now I'm leaning towards either Yuma or Liopoil. Yuma because I liked him arguing a point and making himself visible earlier in the game, and also because if he's resistance and his missions later in the game pass, I get the hammer. Lio because he has 2.5 hammer, although I'm less confident in him.
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Mission 1 Proposal 4
Leader: mail-mi
Proposed Team: mail-mi, Tables
Votes
Accept: Chairs, Mail-mi
Reject: Liopoil, Jimmm, WalrusmcFishSr, Yuma, Tables
Proposal is Rejected
Tables has 24 hours to propose a team of 2 players.
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Twisted, will this be auto-accepted?
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Chairs, why the yes vote?
As I said before I'm leaning towards one of Lio or Yuma. I'd also consider Mail-mi. But I'd like to hear why Chairs voted yes to that first.
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Yes.
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I flipped a coin. I had to submita response and I haven't been home in the last 72 hours.
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I flipped a coin. I had to submita response and I haven't been home in the last 72 hours.
If you have to flip a coin, the answer is to reject I think.
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I flipped a coin. I had to submita response and I haven't been home in the last 72 hours.
If you have to flip a coin, the answer is to reject I think.
I guess, though if Tables gets to choose his own partner don't we run into the problem that if he's a goon/traitor/whatever that he could fake-IC one of the other ones by sharing the mission with them and only one failing?
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I flipped a coin. I had to submita response and I haven't been home in the last 72 hours.
If you have to flip a coin, the answer is to reject I think.
I guess, though if Tables gets to choose his own partner don't we run into the problem that if he's a goon/traitor/whatever that he could fake-IC one of the other ones by sharing the mission with them and only one failing?
They can't talk to each other.
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I flipped a coin. I had to submita response and I haven't been home in the last 72 hours.
If you have to flip a coin, the answer is to reject I think.
I guess, though if Tables gets to choose his own partner don't we run into the problem that if he's a goon/traitor/whatever that he could fake-IC one of the other ones by sharing the mission with them and only one failing?
They can't talk to each other.
Or, more aptly put, they don't have a QT together.
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How would they coordinate that though? I am correct in assuming now that they have no source of outside communication? Haha. I mean I guess they could drop subliminal clues here, but that would be dangerous and possibly ineffective.
Maybe I'm just confused, but it seems like they might run into a situation where both fail by accident. I'd imagine that the safer thing to do were just to pass the mission anyway, as we had discussed is the most likely outcome.
Which wouldn't tell us much. I've got a town lead on Tables anyway, so I figured I would just let him pick the mission and I would be cool with that. It could be an interesting bit of information to see whom he decides upon.
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Mission 1.5: Propose Tables + Liopoil
Radio Silence
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Mission 1 Proposal 5
Leader: Tables
Proposed Team: Tables, Liopoil
Votes
Accept: Everyone
Reject: No one
Proposal is Accepted
Tables and Liopoil have 24 hours to send in their pass/fails.
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Mission 1 Results
Team: Tables, Liopoil
Results: Pass, Pass
Mission 1 has passed!
Jimmmm has 24 hours to propose a team of 3 players.
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yay, good choice tables ;D
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I'll have a look at this some time this afternoon. I'm likely to include Tables, not sure about liopoil yet.
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Yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Score one for the good guys. My blue and purple picks no less; don't make me look foolish by going turncoat later :D
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Excellent, you
got my co-ordination passed, just like I hoped.
Anyway, those reactions seem a little... TOO positive. It's M1, a pass isn't like a massive deal. Eh.
Either way this gives a little more reason to be confident of Lio. Not a huge amount, since he was likely to pass anyway, but it's nice.
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I told twistedarcher that I have felt like this guy lately
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/571039db48cae30354b652ca9c9d7226/tumblr_mhkqrrwHxW1qak6mbo1_250.gif)
I am still trying to figure out what sort of a mission I would accept--I am certainly more inclined to accept a mission with me on it, but even that isn't a guarantee--and like I said, if I am unsure about something I am more inclined to reject it than accept it.
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Lol @ yuma
Tables, maybe your reactions aren't positive enough! Where's your sense of childlike wonder??
WOOOOOO!!! FORUM AVALON!!!! GET PUMPED!!!!!!!
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Lol @ yuma
Tables, maybe your reactions aren't positive enough! Where's your sense of childlike wonder??
WOOOOOO!!! FORUM AVALON!!!! GET PUMPED!!!!!!!
It got beaten out of me after soundly losing the last game :P. But fair enough.
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Propose: liopoil, Tables, yuma
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Not going to jump to the same conclusions I did last game about such a mission... but very interesting.
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Not going to jump to the same conclusions I did last game about such a mission... but very interesting.
I don't remember what conclusions you jumped to last game. Could you elaborate?
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So the questionable variable here is presumably yuma,then?
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Mission 2 Proposal 1 has been proposed. Please send me your votes by 12 am. 11 pm if you want me to update before bed :)
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Mission 2, Proposal 1
Leader: Jimmmmm
Proposed Team: Tables, Liopoil, Yuma
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, WalrusmcfishSr, Yuma
Reject: Tables, Chairs, mail-mi, Jimmmm
Proposal is rejected.
Yuma has 24 hours to propose a new mission.
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Jimmmm, why not yourself? That would mean you have to guess all other resistances.
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Jimmmm+tables, why reject? walrus, why accept? I accepted because that was the mission I would have proposed if I had to right then. resistance reads on mail-mi, yuma, and tables.
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I accepted because you know Tables and lio were my top picks anyway, so this is something like what I would have probably proposed, except with me.
yuma I am more dubious on as stated, but it seems like people want to give him a chance :). I figured that this mission had a pretty good chance of passing, and if it were to fail, well then I guess we might learn something pretty interesting. Certainly it would at least initially crystallize my suspicions of yuma, but then it would be a good jumping-off point for scumhunting, no? It's possible Tables and lio are just exceptionally crafty.
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At this point I'm pretty suspicious of any mission that doesn't include the person proposing it.
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Not going to jump to the same conclusions I did last game about such a mission... but very interesting.
I don't remember what conclusions you jumped to last game. Could you elaborate?
Still want an answer to this at some point, but I don't think I need to wait for it before I propose my mission:
Propose: liopoil, mail-mi, yuma
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Not going to jump to the same conclusions I did last game about such a mission... but very interesting.
I don't remember what conclusions you jumped to last game. Could you elaborate?
I saw someone propose a very similar mission to this. I was immediately very skeptical, thinking it was a bad play. But then the person proposing the mission voted it down and I figured it was a trap of sorts, to see if anyone off mission would vote yes.
Here's the issue:
Suppose one is a rebel off mission in a proposal like this. Then look at the following scenarios:
- Jim is a spy and the mission contains a spy. In this scenario you should obviously vote no. It's the simplest one. You don't know you're in it of course, but that's not the point.
- Jim is a rebel and the mission contains a spy. Still simple. You should vote no. The only real reason to vote yes is if you think there are at least two spies on mission, who might goof up and both fail, but that's kind of a risk. You should probably vote no though, usually.
- Jim is a rebel and the mission is clean. This is first interesting case. This is what you're probably thinking if you vote yes. But look carefully. Jim is a rebel, so that's one rebel. The mission is clean so that's three more rebles. And of course you're an off mission rebel, so you're clean. That's five rebels accounted for. Out of four. Er... As you can see, this scenario can't happen.
- Jim is a spy and the mission is clean. This is the other interesting case. Here, you should actually vote yes, but the scenario is really weird. It's not impossible, but it's a very WIFOM spy play.
So if you are an off mission rebel, it's generally a really bad idea to vote yes - either it was proposed by a spy, or there's a spy on it, or both, and you know that for certain. Even if you're on mission, voting yes is a little weird - you need to trust an extra person more than you should otherwise need to, or believe he's a bluffing spy.
This thus makes me very suspicious of Walrus. One of the people involved in that mission is a spy, but you voted it up. Why?
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This thus makes me very suspicious of Walrus. One of the people involved in that mission is a spy, but you voted it up. Why?
Thanks for elaborating in more detail. This correlates to how I have been feeling about Walrus before the mission, but these points are certainly worth considering. I do have one concern but I'll voice it after Walrus addresses these points himself.
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Oh, I see, suspicious of Walrus day is it? :)
I guess I wasn't thinking about it quite in those terms. As I said, you're right, I have my concerns about yuma in particular. So maybe the mission flies and it fails. If so, oh dear, but we've got a big clue that I would imagine might outweigh a single loss in the long term, just as intentionally passing the first day might benefit the spies. If it passes, well then great, that's good too.
Does this reasoning not make sense?
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The reasoning of, I didn't quite think it through is what I expected. I'll be frank: I'm only slightly suspicious of you as a result. Voting yes to missions like that is generally more of a newbie tell (or a risktaker tell) than it is a spy tell. But it might be something to look back at later in the game. I still don't really have any good spy reads, everyone's seemed very pro-resistance so far, so this sticks out a fair bit, I think.
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Well that was certainly more approvals than I was expecting!
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Fair enough. I mean, if the dominant strategy here (for the first few missions at least) is truly just to gun everything down, then I'll go for that. I don't want my noobishness to imperil the town.
Just seemed a little dull is all :P
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I was taking a leaf out of shraeye's book (from the previous game). I thought the proposal had a very low chance of being approved regardless of what I proposed, and I thought it would be interesting to see if anyone jumped all over me for not putting myself on the mission. Plus the game will probably move forward better if people propose something other than themself/lio/Tables, so I took the option away from yuma.
And yes, it is interesting that Walrus was willing to trust four other people.
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Fair enough. I mean, if the dominant strategy here (for the first few missions at least) is truly just to gun everything down, then I'll go for that. I don't want my noobishness to imperil the town.
Just seemed a little dull is all :P
The dominant strategy (if you're Good) is to approve the missions that have the highest chance of Success. If you're Good and trusting a mission to four other people when there are only three other Good people, you can be pretty sure that it's going to Fail.
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Voting yes to missions like that is generally more of a newbie tell (or a risktaker tell) than it is a spy tell.
This was also my concern with the read.
However these two quotes from Tables don't seem to line up:
I'm only slightly suspicious of you as a result.
This thus makes me very suspicious of Walrus. One of the people involved in that mission is a spy, but you voted it up. Why?
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That's some fine quote mining. You're missing the half of a sentence before that first quote, which puts it in context more. I was primarily trying to push him more, see what I could make him give up. Although I would say I was more suspicious when I made the first post, because I was still thinking things through.
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And yes, it is interesting that Walrus was willing to trust four other people.
Again, I'd like to emphasize that my top 4 gut-feeling picks were you, Tables, lio, and myself. The mission proposed had 3/4, and a bunch of people seemed to be getting positive reads on yuma, so I figured he deserved a shot--and also maybe it would lend some credence to my suspicions if it did fail after all. I believed that possibly having this information would make it likely that we could scoop up at least 2 of the remaining missions.
Fair enough. I mean, if the dominant strategy here (for the first few missions at least) is truly just to gun everything down, then I'll go for that. I don't want my noobishness to imperil the town.
Just seemed a little dull is all :P
The dominant strategy (if you're Good) is to approve the missions that have the highest chance of Success. If you're Good and trusting a mission to four other people when there are only three other Good people, you can be pretty sure that it's going to Fail.
Well yeah, that's true to a first approximation. But then there's other stuff to consider too, like protecting Merlin, gathering information, and so on. For the baddies, for example, it may have been unwise to fail M1, even though the most obvious strategy is to just maximize fails. I thought it was possible that you, Tables and lio might be fellow goodies, while yuma would either 1.) out himself overtly by failing, which could at least launch a productive investigation or 2.) be cowed into silence and we'd pass another one anyway.
Does this make any sense at all? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills over here haha
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The reasoning of, I didn't quite think it through is what I expected. I'll be frank: I'm only slightly suspicious of you as a result.
This part? I'll be frank: I have no idea what the first sentence is saying. I guess I don't know what "it" is nor do I know what "is" is.
But yeah, when you say one thing and then a couple of other posts below it says something different, that is going to raise my eyebrows. If nothing else it is going to make me want you to clarify so I know exactly where you stand on the situation. So where do you stand? With your first statement, or second, somewhere in the middle?
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Did you miss my last post, Yuma?
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Did you miss my last post, Yuma?
No, Tables, I didn't miss your last post. I am obviously referring to it in this part of my post:
This part? I'll be frank: I have no idea what the first sentence is saying. I guess I don't know what "it" is nor do I know what "is" is.
And yes, I want you to clarify where you stand (regardless of anything you have said before). What is so hard about that?
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Oh. I thought I was quite clear there. I wanted to see his reaction, so I overstated my suspicion. Then once I'd seen it I clarified, I wasn't so suspicious as I said. His reply also helped - I'm still suspicious, but less so than I was at first.
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Mission 2, Proposal 2 has been proposed. Please get your votes in with the next....hour. (mod fails at updating!)
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Oh. I thought I was quite clear there. I wanted to see his reaction, so I overstated my suspicion. Then once I'd seen it I clarified, I wasn't so suspicious as I said. His reply also helped - I'm still suspicious, but less so than I was at first.
I get what you are saying now... I guess that I am just surprised that you didn't come to that conclusion very quickly, that it might just very well be a newbie tell... that was my first reaction after you explain why he was "very scummy."
As for overstating your suspicion... I often have a problem with this tactic in mafia as well (voting for reactions). Because to me it makes me just as suspicious of the person using the "tactic." Because I have to ask myself is it actually a tactic or is it a cover? That then leaves me more focused on you, than Walrus.
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Yeah, I get what you're saying. It probably doesn't help that it was half legitimate anyway. I was more suspicious before his explanation than before, even though I expected what he said. Irrational minds and whatnot.
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Yeah, I get what you're saying. It probably doesn't help that it was half legitimate anyway. I was more suspicious before his explanation than before, even though I expected what he said. Irrational minds and whatnot.
Yeah... And I think I need to stop attempting to apply mafia logic to this game. It is hard because it is really the only thing I know how to do, but these games are obviously quite different...
I wonder if there is a way to combine them! (not meant to be a thread distractor... but I might think about this for a while and if I can come up with something, you might see it at some point down the road)
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I have a working plan for a game of Avalon Mafia, a basic 9 player mafia game with Merlin and Assassin. But really, mafia deduction based on scumtells works fine I think, although there's a few sightly different types of things to pick up on. The difference is there's going to be a lot more solid public information to work from.
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I have a working plan for a game of Avalon Mafia, a basic 9 player mafia game with Merlin and Assassin. But really, mafia deduction based on scumtells works fine I think, although there's a few sightly different types of things to pick up on. The difference is there's going to be a lot more solid public information to work from.
Well sign me up if it gets to that point... and maybe jump into the mafia signup list if you want it to be a "true" mafia game rather than a non-mafia game.... the signup list is a bit long at the moment and is growing rather than shrinking.
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I guess I could run it... I mean I know how it's meant to work, but no idea about balance... eh, why not? Worth a shot.
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I think Spies are much more likely to bus in this than in Mafia, since they don't generally want multiple Spies on the one mission.
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Bump?
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I presume someone (or someones) hasn't voted yet.
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I presume someone (or someones) hasn't voted yet.
Yup
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Mission 2 Proposal 2
Leader: Yuma
Proposed Team: Liopoil, mail-mi, Yuma
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, yuma, mail-mi, chairs
Reject: Tables, Jimmmmm, WalrusMcFishSr
Proposal is Accepted
Liopoil, Mail-mi, and Yuma have 24 hours to send in their pass/fails.
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Radio Silence
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Mission 2 Results
Team: Liopoil, Mail-Mi, Yuma
Results: Pass, Pass, Fail
Mission 2 has failed!
Chairs has 24 hours to propose a team of 3 players.
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TA has been busy recently, so he asked me to help him out with moderating this game. If you could send votes etc. to both of us, that would be helpful to keep the game moving as quickly as possible!
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Boooooo. FoS on nkirbit for showing up right as the mission fails...there must be some sort of correlation :P
So anybody have anything to say about this? chairs in particular, before you make your proposal, do you want to explain why you endorsed this ill-fated mission?
Next question is, how many scum do we think were on the mission? If there were more than one, would we expected to have seen multiple Fails? It would seem like sort of a dangerous Scummy Prisoner's Dilemma, where one passing, one failing would be the optimal situation, both failing would be less than ideal, and both passing would be even worse. I don't know if one could risk passing in such a situation and risk a double-pass if there's no prior communication. I was thinking that it might be possible that yuma is scum and proposes the mission with another scum on it, and that's some sort of scum secret code like, "Oh I propose the mission, so I'm gonna pass it, and you do the fail." Or vice versa. Maybe that's completely wrong or paranoid though.
And then the most important question, whom do we think is scum? Well lio was on the first passing team, but of course that doesn't mean much. It could be any of them, but you know that mail-mi and especially yuma are likely candidates in my mind. Not just for this mission, but I also found yuma's behavior to be somewhat questionable in attacking Tables after he overstated his suspicion of me. Despite him putting me in the spotlight, I found Tables' actions to be more reasonable than yuma's.
In conclusion, I repeat once more: boooooo.
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That's unfortunate, but with me off mission, I figured it was probable. Was kind of hoping for two fails, but oh well. Even if spies play randomly in that's only a 50/50 shot (assuming there weren't THREE spies on mission...).
If there were two spies, I kind of expect it was Lio+Mail-mi. I doubt Yuma would willingly put two spies on mission, but it's definitely possible. If there was only one, then it could reasonably be anyone.
Major FoS on Chairs for voting that up. From a rebel PoV I don't think it makes sense. He had the next proposal and could have put himself on, so even if he trusted everyone on mission, he would have had almost no reason to vote no. As a spy, he would have known he could get a fail either way, so voting yes is more reasonable. I think that yes vote was essentially a slip.
I need to go out now, but I'm still going to have to look back at the three people on mission and see if there's any sign of communication (especially from Yuma since he was mission leader), which might be an indicator there were two spies on mission.
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I didn't thinki got to propose another mission,how do you determine that? And I really thought this one would go through fine, as I thought that you were a spy trying to cast doubt on the mission team listed to geta chance to be in one and fail it.
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I didn't thinki got to propose another mission,how do you determine that?
What?
And I really thought this one would go through fine,
So you really thought you, Yuma, Lio, Mail-mi were the four rebels and me, Walrus and Jimmm were the three spies? What made you confident in that?
as I thought that you were a spy trying to cast doubt on the mission team listed to geta chance to be in one and fail it.
What?
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I didn't thinki got to propose another mission,how do you determine that?
What?
And I really thought this one would go through fine,
So you really thought you, Yuma, Lio, Mail-mi were the four rebels and me, Walrus and Jimmm were the three spies? What made you confident in that?
as I thought that you were a spy trying to cast doubt on the mission team listed to geta chance to be in one and fail it.
What?
Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
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And I really thought this one would go through fine,
So you really thought you, Yuma, Lio, Mail-mi were the four rebels and me, Walrus and Jimmm were the three spies? What made you confident in that?
This is a good point. Its almost as if he knew that one of his spy buddies would be on-mission. I have a spy read on chairs. And of course one of liopoil/Yuma is a spy, and then one of Jimmm/Tables/walrus is.
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dang, sorry guys. Should not have approved that, should have waited for my own proposal. Whatever I ended up proposing would likely fail anyway (It would have had at least one of mail-mi/yuma on it), but still.
Anyway, I'd like it if none of chairs, mail-mi, or yuma were on the mission, and that tables is on the mission. I'd like to be on the mission too, but I'm not sure how likely that is to happen.
though putting none of the people who were on mission 2 on mission 3 is dangerous. if there was only 1 spy on mission 2 then it can't be spy-free.
I think it's quite possible there are two spies on that mission. everyone knows that if two spies are on a mission, and mail-mi is one of them, he will fail it and the other will pass it, because that's how it's gone both of the past two games.
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lio, what do you think of chairs?
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I suspect him for that vote, yes, thought I said that in that last post, guess not.
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Chairs, please nominate a team of 3 players.
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Oh it's my turn..
propose: chairs tables walrus
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Mission 3, Proposal 1 has been made. Please send in your pass/fails by 1 am tomorrow.
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Still waiting for votes.
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Mission 3 Proposal 1
Leader: Chairs
Proposed Team: Chairs, Tables, WalrusMcFishSr
Votes
Accept: No one
Reject: Everyone
Proposal is Rejected
WalrusmcFishSr has 24 hours to nominate a team of 3 players.
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Haha, resounding support for that proposal eh? Chairs, why not vote for your own mission? Your behavior is seeming slightly irrational to me.
I will Propose: Tables, liopoil, and WalrusMcFishSr
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MIssion 3, Proposal 2 has been proposed. Please send in your votes by 7:30 PM Friday.
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So, you think Lio was the most likely clean person on mission? Hmm... or your reads just haven't changed much? I suppose that's fair. It makes sense to include at least one person on mission, I'm still very uncertain about who it should be. I've had a decent read on all three of them in the past (before M2 they'd have been my top three townreads, I think), but obviously one of them is a spy, and possibly two.
Right now I kind of have three fuzzy categories in my head, which I think there's a spy in each of:
{Chairs}
{Lio, Mail-mi, Yuma}
{Walrus, Jimmmmmm}
Obviously the middle one I know for certain there's a spy in. I'm not certain of Chairs, though, but I certainly don't want to see him on M3, and if that passes not on M4 either. If it fails... hopefully the new information will shed more light on his alignment.
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Well, maybe...I mean I was mostly going by the fact that you and lio passed the first mission, and I had good leads on both of you anyway. If the mission were to fail, I would have to reevaluate naturally.
My strongest scum reads currently are chairs and yuma. mail-mi or Jimmmmm I'm not as confident. But I thought this was a reasonable proposal for now.
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This is the two people on the last mission, minus me. I know it's going to fail if it goes through, so you know my vote.
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Umm, it's not, is it? Last mission was you, lio, and yuma; this is me, lio, and Tables. That's 2 substitutions.
Why are you so sure of failure?
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Umm, it's not, is it? Last mission was you, lio, and yuma; this is me, lio, and Tables. That's 2 substitutions.
Why are you so sure of failure?
Oh. I thought it was me-lio-tables last time. Oops. Still don't trust this mission very much.
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Well, maybe...I mean I was mostly going by the fact that you and lio passed the first mission, and I had good leads on both of you anyway. If the mission were to fail, I would have to reevaluate naturally.
My strongest scum reads currently are chairs and yuma. mail-mi or Jimmmmm I'm not as confident. But I thought this was a reasonable proposal for now.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I think it's a perfectly reasonable proposal to make, but that doesn't mean I'm confident it's clean.
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Mission 3 Proposal 2
Leader: WalrusmcFishSr
Proposed Team: Liopoil, Tables, WalrusMcFishSr
Votes
Accept: WalrusMcFishSr, Liopoil, Chairs
Reject: Tables, Jimmmmm, Mail-mi, Yuma
Proposal is Rejected
Liopoil has 24 hours to nominate a team of 3 players.
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Interesting.
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chairs, why the accept?
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That was my next question as well.
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let's see. I'm choosing myself, tables, and one other person. my options:
chairs
yuma
mail-mi
walrusmcfishsr
Jimmmm.
walrus already got rejected, one of mail-mi/yuma is a spy, and I suspect chairs.
Propose: Liopoil, Tables, Jimmmmm
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Mission 3, Proposal 3 has been proposed. Please send me your votes ASAP.
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Mission 3 Proposal 3
Leader: Liopoil
Proposed Team: Liopoil, Tables, Jimmm
Votes
Accept: Liopoil, Jimmmm
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi, Yuma
Proposal is Rejected
mail-mi has 24 hours to nominate a team of 3 players.
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yeah, tables has control of this one.
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I'm thinking of proposing myself, Tables, and walrus. Chairs is a spy, don't want to put lio or Yuma on, and jimmmm is slightly more spy than tables and walrus.
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I was very on the edge about voting yes or no to that one. On the one hand I felt pretty good about the mission - I'm feeling reasonably confident that it's clean, so that was a point for voting it up. But then it had the downside of giving me a not great proposal position for M4 and gave Chairs the hammer - and I could see how the voting went in the first place. I'm now leaning towards proposing that same thing, but we'll see how I feel when it gets around to M3.
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that's totally a legit reason - especially because I believe it gives me the fifth proposal for M4 :)
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That is gets around to M3.5. I know it's Mail-mi's proposal now, but uh, I dunno. I'm leaning towards two of the M2 people being resistance because I had good reads on all of them, but picking 2/3 rebels from that will be tough (and heck it could be double spy anyway). It does depend on what mail-mi proposes though.
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IDK, lio got a few scumpoints from me because of chairs' vote on 3.2. But then again, who knows what chairs was thinking.
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Propose: mail-mi, Tables, Walrus.
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Mission 3, Proposal 4 has been proposed. Please send in your votes.
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Mission 3 Proposal 4
Leader: Mail-mi
Proposed Team: Mail-mi, Tables, Walrus
Votes
Accept: Mail-mi
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Liopoil, Yuma, Jimmmmm
Proposal is Rejected
Tables has 24 hours to nominate a team of 3 players.
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Hmm, interesting. Walrus, why the reject?
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I have sort of a scummish feeling about mail-mi. Also, I wanted to see what you would do with the hammer.
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I already said what I was likely to do with the hammer, though. Me+Jimmm+Lio.
I'm looking over what people have said in the past though and now I'm actually leaning more towards Yuma from M2. I still like the fact he got vocal early in the game (actually as an aside, has anyone played Mafia with him? Is he willing to be loud even as scum?). But I also still like Mail-mi playing very differently to last game, and Lio for pointing it out very quickly, so it's a hard choice. But anyway, what do people think of me+Jimmm+Yuma? I'm actually pretty uncertain between Walrus and Jimmm as well, they both feel somewhat scummy to me, but I know at least one is very likely clean (and obviously I'm leaning towards Jimmm at the moment). My read on Chairs stays as it was.
Aah, my reads would be so much easier if I didn't know for certain one of the M2 people were dirty. Otherwise I'd just say us four are the rebels. They'd be wrong, but at least I'd feel confident about them :P.
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I already said what I was likely to do with the hammer, though. Me+Jimmm+Lio.
I'm looking over what people have said in the past though and now I'm actually leaning more towards Yuma from M2. I still like the fact he got vocal early in the game (actually as an aside, has anyone played Mafia with him? Is he willing to be loud even as scum?). But I also still like Mail-mi playing very differently to last game, and Lio for pointing it out very quickly, so it's a hard choice. But anyway, what do people think of me+Jimmm+Yuma? I'm actually pretty uncertain between Walrus and Jimmm as well, they both feel somewhat scummy to me, but I know at least one is very likely clean (and obviously I'm leaning towards Jimmm at the moment). My read on Chairs stays as it was.
Aah, my reads would be so much easier if I didn't know for certain one of the M2 people were dirty. Otherwise I'd just say us four are the rebels. They'd be wrong, but at least I'd feel confident about them :P.
Apparently you don't even know what you're going to do with the hammer :P So I think that was a legitimate point. Mostly I just didn't trust mail-mi on that mission, I trust you more, but either way your pick would be informative at least.
I'm still feeling ok about Jimmmmm, but there's not a lot to go by. I told you lio's read got scummier for me after that chairs vote for him. Yuma I'm conflicted on, as it seems my initial impressions ran counter to most others'. But I guess I would support him over lio because of my current suspicion of lio, and to get a wider cross-range of information.
Obviously I would prefer a mission with me on it but I wasn't going to risk mail-mi sullying my good name in this instance.
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I already said what I was likely to do with the hammer, though. Me+Jimmm+Lio.
I'm looking over what people have said in the past though and now I'm actually leaning more towards Yuma from M2. I still like the fact he got vocal early in the game (actually as an aside, has anyone played Mafia with him? Is he willing to be loud even as scum?). But I also still like Mail-mi playing very differently to last game, and Lio for pointing it out very quickly, so it's a hard choice. But anyway, what do people think of me+Jimmm+Yuma? I'm actually pretty uncertain between Walrus and Jimmm as well, they both feel somewhat scummy to me, but I know at least one is very likely clean (and obviously I'm leaning towards Jimmm at the moment). My read on Chairs stays as it was.
Aah, my reads would be so much easier if I didn't know for certain one of the M2 people were dirty. Otherwise I'd just say us four are the rebels. They'd be wrong, but at least I'd feel confident about them :P.
no don't put yuma on!! he is certainly loud regardless of alignment in mafia, and has had quite a bit of success with that.
walrus and jimmm are pretty close, I'd probably actually go with walrus.
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I already said what I was likely to do with the hammer, though. Me+Jimmm+Lio.
I'm looking over what people have said in the past though and now I'm actually leaning more towards Yuma from M2. I still like the fact he got vocal early in the game (actually as an aside, has anyone played Mafia with him? Is he willing to be loud even as scum?). But I also still like Mail-mi playing very differently to last game, and Lio for pointing it out very quickly, so it's a hard choice. But anyway, what do people think of me+Jimmm+Yuma? I'm actually pretty uncertain between Walrus and Jimmm as well, they both feel somewhat scummy to me, but I know at least one is very likely clean (and obviously I'm leaning towards Jimmm at the moment). My read on Chairs stays as it was.
Aah, my reads would be so much easier if I didn't know for certain one of the M2 people were dirty. Otherwise I'd just say us four are the rebels. They'd be wrong, but at least I'd feel confident about them :P.
no don't put yuma on!! he is certainly loud regardless of alignment in mafia, and has had quite a bit of success with that.
walrus and jimmm are pretty close, I'd probably actually go with walrus.
I agree with this.
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Hey, sorry for my lack of posting. I think Tables' suggestion is reasonable. Resistance read on him. Not too sure about liopoil, but then I don't know who I'd have instead.
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I already said what I was likely to do with the hammer, though. Me+Jimmm+Lio.
...But I also still like Mail-mi playing very differently to last game, and Lio for pointing it out very quickly, so it's a hard choice. But anyway, what do people think of me+Jimmm+Yuma?
Apparently you don't even know what you're going to do with the hammer :P
Ah, touche. Well, yes, I was leaning one way, I leant another, but after...
no don't put yuma on!! he is certainly loud regardless of alignment in mafia, and has had quite a bit of success with that.
walrus and jimmm are pretty close, I'd probably actually go with walrus.
I agree with this.
I'm leaning back to my initial plan. So if I'm gathering this right, Lio you're suggesting that you're leaning towards Yuma and Jimmm being spies (I guess you think Chairs is the third)? Or are you just not wanting Yuma on because it'd mean you wouldn't be? I'll going to go reconsider my thoughts on Yuma now, I think - I'm taking into mind the fact it's the two other people on the failed mission giving those statements, although I doubt they'd lie about something I could easily verify as false if either/both were spies.
Mail-mi: Could you confirm you're agreeing with BOTH statements Lio made or just one? I'm assuming both for now but you know.
Once again I'm leaning towards my initial proposal of Me+Jim+Lio, but if two people are suggesting Walrus over Jimm... I dunno. Well actually I'd just like to hear back from Mail-mi first.
Sorry for the delay in proposing this, but I think you'll all agree this is a pretty important mission, so I think the extra discussion and deadline-breaking is legitimate. But I suppose just to be official TA: I'm requesting a deadline extension, perhaps until Friday or tomorrow evening?
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@Tables: Yes.
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Okay. Hmm... Here's what this all suggests to me:
If Lio (only) is a spy I suspect Jimm might be as well.
If Mail-mi (only) is a spy I suspect Jimm is clean and Walrus is more likely a spy.
If both are clean I'm very suspicious of Jimm.
Note none of these are certainties, just raised suspicions. Basically here's the reasoning:
If only Lio is a spy, then Lio suggesting he's more confident in Walrus than Jimm (now referred to as just '(the/a) suggestion') seems to make the most sense if Jimm is another spy and he wants a single spy mission - or perhaps it's hinting at who should play the fail (as remiss as I am to point out such a thing). The possibility exists that this is merely a bluff or the like, hence this only making me more suspicious of Jimm. Mail-mi's suggestion is reasonable regardless of loyalty.
If mail-mi is a spy, then the same kind of reasoning applies, but since mail-mi is off mission it's somewhat reversed. mail-mi is agreeing with Lio (clean in this hypothetical) to push a suggestion that puts a spy onto mission. So this proposal is clean, Walrus is dirty.
If neither are spies, then uhh well two rebels are supporting the change. And there's a good chance one of the two is Merlin, who obviously knows everything - although it could just be coincidence. Either way combine that with three people being clean in this scenario (me+Lio+Mail-mi) and two of those feeling strongly enough to make the suggestion to change my proposal makes it very likely Jimm is a spy.
I'm aware basically all of my deductions here only work for me knowing I'm clean, which is something a decent number of you don't know for certain. But I think my conclusions are somewhat decent. I'll take a little time to ponder on it and see if anyone has anything to add before making the proposal.
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(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/4004554240/h51EC3E48/)
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Here's what I'm thinking. For the sake of this mission I'm assuming Tables is Good since he has the hammer. I know I'm Good. If we assume for the moment that there was exactly one Spy on the previous mission, which is particularly likely if you believe that yuma is a Spy, then if Tables and I are Good then that leaves exactly three possible scumteams: chairs, Walrus and exactly one of yuma/liopoil/mail-mi. Out of lio and mail-mi I trust lio more. mail-mi agreeing with lio that Walrus should be on the Mission, knowing that mail-mi was not being suggested seems like it could have been an attempt to create some sort of consensus for getting Walrus on the Mission. Which makes sense from my point of view knowing that if Tables is Resistance then Walrus is likely to be a Spy.
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In short, Tables/liopoil/Jimmmmm is the way I would go.
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(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6493018368/hAC790A30/)
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FoS: Walrus for species-confusion.
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For those who've played mafia or similar with Walrus before... is he usually this exciting? I'm currently rereading all of Walrus + Jimmmmm's posts, and it's like a kid in a candy store with Walrus. It's awesome, but I'm wondering if it's his usual playstyle.
Also rereading them, I feel Jimmmmm's play has been generally more solid overall, although he's experienced and Walrus isn't, so perhaps that's to be (more) expected. I'm still leaning a lot more towards Jimm due to personal reads on the two, even though two people are suggesting otherwise (well three if you include Walrus). I'm really unsure of which of those two to pick - or indeed, whether I should choose a different one out of Lio/Mail-mi/Yuma. Yuma's actually been quite quiet recently, so it'd be nice to hear from him as well. Both Mail-mi and Lio sound pretty unsure about him though, could be the spy among them buddying up with the popular suggestion or it could be both are resistance and suspect him both.
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Yeah I can vouch for Walrus, he's cool but a bit eccentric...I think he may suffer from multiple personality disorder.
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I, Arthur, King of the Britons, hereby declare mine utmost faith in Walrus, elder of the family McFish. His deeds are just and noble and verily he is the loyalest subject that e'er I have known.
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Maybe stick to your main account?
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Okay, AKOTB is pretty funny.
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So if I'm gathering this right, Lio you're suggesting that you're leaning towards Yuma and Jimmm being spies (I guess you think Chairs is the third)? Or are you just not wanting Yuma on because it'd mean you wouldn't be?
well, I don't want yuma OR mail-mi on because I know at least one is spy. I think chairs is a spy, and that the third spy is in the group of {tables, walrus, jimmmm, yuma/mail-mi}. in that group, I'm really unsure which I'm the most suspicious of, but I lean walrus is more likely to be resistance than jimmmmm. I'm not sure that jimmm is more likely to be a spy than you, or that jimmm is more likely to be a spy than both yuma and mail-mi being a spy.
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For those who've played mafia or similar with Walrus before... is he usually this exciting? I'm currently rereading all of Walrus + Jimmmmm's posts, and it's like a kid in a candy store with Walrus. It's awesome, but I'm wondering if it's his usual playstyle.
Also rereading them, I feel Jimmmmm's play has been generally more solid overall, although he's experienced and Walrus isn't, so perhaps that's to be (more) expected. I'm still leaning a lot more towards Jimm due to personal reads on the two, even though two people are suggesting otherwise (well three if you include Walrus). I'm really unsure of which of those two to pick - or indeed, whether I should choose a different one out of Lio/Mail-mi/Yuma. Yuma's actually been quite quiet recently, so it'd be nice to hear from him as well. Both Mail-mi and Lio sound pretty unsure about him though, could be the spy among them buddying up with the popular suggestion or it could be both are resistance and suspect him both.
I will vouch for Walrus.
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please submit a mission by 8 pm tonight.
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Can you prod Yuma? I really would like to at least hear his thoughts before I make the proposal.
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Can you prod Yuma? I really would like to at least hear his thoughts before I make the proposal.
No prod necessary. I am here.
My thoughts? Sorry, didn't know you wanted anything from me up to this point.
Well, you should put me on the mission. Obviously not mail-mi or liopoil.
You aren't putting chairs on, I know that much and probably agree with it.
Jimmm and walrus is a toss up. I suspect walrus more from mostly early game stuff, but really I can't figure out a way to read just about anybody.
My only main concern is that you are a baddie and are just pretending to take an agonizingly long time to come to a decision in an attempt to look good. I don't know if that is a valid concern, but it is a concern nevertheless (and one I don't think has been voiced by anyone else at this point).
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Mission 3.5: Propose Tables, Mail-mi, Walrus
Radio Silence
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Mission 3, Proposal 5.
Proposed by: Tables
Team: Tables, Mail-mi, Walrus
Accept: Everyone
Reject: No one
Please send in your pass/fails.
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Mission 3, Proposal 5.
Leader: Tables
Team: Tables, mail-mi, WalrusmcFishSr
Results: pass, pass, pass.
Mission succeeds!
Jimm to nominate 4.1. Four players, two fails required.
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Well that was unexpected.
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wow. I did not expect that, but yay!. So from my perspective either:
- The spy team is yuma-jimmmmm-chairs - quite possible, but there are so many other spyteams there could be...
- The spy team is walrus-tables-yuma - unlikely, why would tables do this team, and unlikely both pass the mission.
- Mail-mi and Walrus are spies, and both passed - I doubt, I think mail-mi would fail it.
- Tables and mail-mi are spies, and both passed - I doubt tables would propose this, and think mail-mi would fail it.
- Mail-mi is a spy along with two of {Yuma, chairs, jimmmm} - I think mail-mi would fail this for sure. Really not worth it to slowplay here.
- Tables and Yuma are spies along with one of {chairs, Jimmmmm} - could be, but why did tables pass this?
- Walrus and Yuma are spies along with one of {chairs, Jimmmmm} - could be, but why did walrus pass this?
So a lot of possibilities, but most are unlikely. big resistance read on mail-mi, big spyread on yuma.
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wow. I did not expect that, but yay!. So from my perspective either:
- The spy team is yuma-jimmmmm-chairs - quite possible, but there are so many other spyteams there could be...
- Mail-mi and Walrus are spies, and both passed - I doubt, I think mail-mi would fail it.
These were and still are the two possibilities I think it might be. I know I never mentioned that team explicitly as an option, so I just want to make it clear that it wasn't pulled out of the bag as some magic spy ploy:
Okay. Hmm... Here's what this all suggests to me:
If Lio (only) is a spy I suspect Jimm might be as well.
If Mail-mi (only) is a spy I suspect Jimm is clean and Walrus is more likely a spy.
If both are clean I'm very suspicious of Jimm.
I didn't mention it because I wanted to keep any possibility of co-operation impossible, but me + mail-mi + Walrus or me + Lio + Jimm were the main teams I was considering at that point, because I thought they were each either likely clean or likely double spy. It was win-win regardless of what I proposed.
So having said that, I AM still concerned this mission might be double spy, although given it did pass I'm considerably less concerned than I initially was. It's possible to just jump up and say "It's clean! Mission leader + those 3!", but that might end up getting a double fail, and that... puts us in a bad position for M5. It's also possible that an on mission spy was playing the deep game, putting on a pass, expecting that next mission to be those three + one and hoping the one would be a spy. That only really seems probable if Jimm + (mail-mi or Walrus) is a spy though, which I think is less likely.
So based on this my guess at the spy team would be Chairs + Jimmm + (Lio or Yuma), with Chairs + Mail-mi + Walrus still a significant second option in my head.
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well, we can afford one spy on this mission. So how about we put one of mail-mi/walrus on (prefferably mail-mi for me), tables, liopoil, and Jimmmmm. (or yuma I guess, but I think he's a spy.)
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Switching out two people from the previous mission sounds like a spy choice to me. Although I suppose it makes sense from your point of view. My preference would be for M3 +1 - I outlayed the risks above yeah, but I think it's the safest option overall. That said I think I could also get behind Tables + M2, since I'm now a lot more confident one of Walrus or Jimm is a spy and Chairs is the other. It guarantees one spy on mission, but I feel pretty good about there not being two.
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Yeah man, IDK--I would have thought that if there were in fact a spy on this mission they would be eager to fail it, sow dissent and confusion, and bring the town to a must-pass situation. Not failing seems like it would have been a serious risk. I find all this "Oh I'm so surprised! Maybe we should shuffle things around a bit more" talk to be spy-ish. I think this past mission roster +1 is the safest way to go, although I recognize it's not 100%.
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Propose: Jimmmmm, Tables, mail-mi, Walrus
Easy done.
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Mission 4, Proposal 1 has been made. Please send in your votes!
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Mmm... right now I'm about 50-60% confident that the three spies are Lio, Jimm and Chairs, based on recent posts and mission results. So this proposal is interesting. I guess spies can still win through assassination, but I dunno. I'm suddenly uncertain about this mission.
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bump?
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Got the final vote this afternoon, will update when I'm home :)
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Mission 4 Proposal 1
Leader: Jimmmmm
Proposed Team: Jimmmmm, Tables, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi
Votes
Accept: Jimmmm
Reject: Tables, Chairs, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi, Yuma, Liopoil
Proposal is Rejected
Yuma has 24 hours to nominate a team of 4 players.
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Wait what? So either you think there's one Spy among Tables/Walrus/mail-mi and they for some reason decided to succeed the mission and hope they could get another Spy on for the next one, or you think there's two or three Spies among them and they failed at coordinating. Two Fails are needed, remember.
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Wait what? So either you think there's one Spy among Tables/Walrus/mail-mi and they for some reason decided to succeed the mission and hope they could get another Spy on for the next one, or you think there's two or three Spies among them and they failed at coordinating. Two Fails are needed, remember.
I think there's one spy among {Jimmmm}
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Wait what? So either you think there's one Spy among Tables/Walrus/mail-mi and they for some reason decided to succeed the mission and hope they could get another Spy on for the next one, or you think there's two or three Spies among them and they failed at coordinating. Two Fails are needed, remember.
I think there's one spy among {Jimmmm}
So who's the other one, Walrus or Tables?
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Wait what? So either you think there's one Spy among Tables/Walrus/mail-mi and they for some reason decided to succeed the mission and hope they could get another Spy on for the next one, or you think there's two or three Spies among them and they failed at coordinating. Two Fails are needed, remember.
I think there's one spy among {Jimmmm}
Ditto. When I said last mission roster + X, X=Jimmmmm was not what I had its mind. I still believe the last mission was probably clean but better to be safe. Plus it was just the first proposal, no need to rush things.
It also looks like there's some consensus here lol
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Well it doesn't matter. If the previous Mission was clean we win anyway.
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i wont be able to submit until i get home from work tomorrow. i want to at least think about this for a bit...
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Mmm... interesting. Everyone on the previous mission voted no, eh? That seems odd. But everyone off mission voted no as well. To blend in presumably in case it didn't go ahead, or because they were off mission rebels? But if everyone on mission was concerned and nobody wanted to vote it up... yeah, I think that fits my expected spy team of Jim+Lio+Chairs, which is what I expected before Jim's proposal. I guess that means Jim was probably bluffing? (Or he thinks he knows who Merlin is, possibly).
Also Jimm's reaction to it not going ahead seemed... pretty angry. Ehh. Dunno what to read about that.
PPE: I think M3+Yuma is very likely to succeed. I'm still concerned Mail-mi + Walrus might be a pair of spies (I did choose them over Lio+Jimmm partially to avoid possibility to co-ordinate) but after seeing posts in M4 I'm far more confident it's Jimm+Lio. I guess it could also be another pair (I think we've basically confirmed Chairs as a spy considering his inactivity here...) but those two seem by far the most likely to me.
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Also Jimm's reaction to it not going ahead seemed... pretty angry. Ehh. Dunno what to read about that.
I just thought it was a no-brainer. Clean Mission + 1, 2 Fails required, done. No need to extend the Game any further and give the Spies any more clues. I suppose there could be 2 Spies on the Mission. If that's the case, it would be best to put the third one on as well I guess.
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Also Jimm's reaction to it not going ahead seemed... pretty angry. Ehh. Dunno what to read about that.
I just thought it was a no-brainer. Clean Mission + 1, 2 Fails required, done. No need to extend the Game any further and give the Spies any more clues. I suppose there could be 2 Spies on the Mission. If that's the case, it would be best to put the third one on as well I guess.
Oh. I forgot it was 2 fails required. Yeah, everyone on mission is clean, I should have thought that through. It would be cool if we got all the spies off mission though.
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Mmm... interesting. Everyone on the previous mission voted no, eh? That seems odd. But everyone off mission voted no as well. To blend in presumably in case it didn't go ahead, or because they were off mission rebels? But if everyone on mission was concerned and nobody wanted to vote it up... yeah, I think that fits my expected spy team of Jim+Lio+Chairs, which is what I expected before Jim's proposal. I guess that means Jim was probably bluffing? (Or he thinks he knows who Merlin is, possibly).
Also Jimm's reaction to it not going ahead seemed... pretty angry. Ehh. Dunno what to read about that.
PPE: I think M3+Yuma is very likely to succeed. I'm still concerned Mail-mi + Walrus might be a pair of spies (I did choose them over Lio+Jimmm partially to avoid possibility to co-ordinate) but after seeing posts in M4 I'm far more confident it's Jimm+Lio. I guess it could also be another pair (I think we've basically confirmed Chairs as a spy considering his inactivity here...) but those two seem by far the most likely to me.
Heh. My inactivity has to do with me still not understanding the rules when we're practically done with the game. I should've watched another 2-3 of these.
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Let's try
Propose: yuma, Tables, mail-mi, Jimmm
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Well I guess this probably has only one Spy.
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Swapping on Jimmm worries me. Yuma, who do you think the spies are?
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Bumpski?
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4.2 has been proposed. Please get your votes in!
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Swapping on Jimmm worries me. Yuma, who do you think the spies are?
Still want an answer to this.
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Bump.
I saw a new comment for the topic "The Resistance: Avalon (Evil wins!)" and had a moment of confused panic.
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4.2 has been proposed. Please get your votes in!
Anyone with votes not in?
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Yup. Still waiting. Someone hasn't been on the forums for a few days
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Sorry. Internet problems and Yuma STILL didn't reply to that comment, so, ugh.
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aaaand we're back!
Mission 4 Proposal 2
Leader: Yuma
Proposed Team: Yuma, Tables, mail-mi, Jimmmmm
Votes
Accept: Jimmmm, Chairs, Yuma
Reject: Tables, WalrusmcFishSr, Mail-mi, Liopoil
Proposal is Rejected
Chairs has 24 hours to nominate a team of 4 players.
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O.o chairs accepted..... spyspyspyspyspy
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Propose chairs mail-mi tables jimmm
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I'm glad I rejected. Or Chairs is bluffing, but more likely, double spy.
Incidentally I had a game a bit like this on Wednesday. Someone slipped up midgame and was pretty much outed as a spy. I posed a few other statements, and they kind of gave up arguing at that point. But the difference between him and Chairs is that he continued to try and help the resistance, asserting his innocence continually. By his proposal on Mission 5 (M5.4) I was pretty confident he was, in fact, a rebel (and he was).
I'm probably going to need to reread this game but IIRC I think the spy team was, uh, Chairs, Lio and Jim? I mean I can obviously just check that and reread what's happened but eh.
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I'm glad I rejected. Or Chairs is bluffing, but more likely, double spy.
Incidentally I had a game a bit like this on Wednesday. Someone slipped up midgame and was pretty much outed as a spy. I posed a few other statements, and they kind of gave up arguing at that point. But the difference between him and Chairs is that he continued to try and help the resistance, asserting his innocence continually. By his proposal on Mission 5 (M5.4) I was pretty confident he was, in fact, a rebel (and he was).
I'm probably going to need to reread this game but IIRC I think the spy team was, uh, Chairs, Lio and Jim? I mean I can obviously just check that and reread what's happened but eh.
I was thinking this...Except recent events have left a bad taste in my mouth regarding yuma. I may be back to leaning towards lio as resistance.
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Mission 4, Proposal 3 has been proposed. Please send in your votes!
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Still need 3 votes. Come on guys!
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Mission 4 Proposal 3
Leader: Chairs
Proposed Team: Chairs, mail-mi, Tables, Jimm
Votes
Accept: No one
Reject: Everyone
Proposal is Rejected
WalrusmcfishSr has 24 hours to nominate a team of 4 players.
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Lol
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Alright Walrus, me, you, Yuma and Mail-mi. Sub at most one of those out if you must, but I'd prefer you didn't. Let's not let this get to Lio please. Even if it does I'm reasonably confident on the spy team, but, eh, I could be wrong. Maybe Chairs isn't a spy after all. Actually, maybe I should look back and try and remember why everyone is ENTIRELY confident on his spyness. Because that's actually slightly odd... eh.
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Alright Walrus, me, you, Yuma and Mail-mi. Sub at most one of those out if you must, but I'd prefer you didn't. Let's not let this get to Lio please. Even if it does I'm reasonably confident on the spy team, but, eh, I could be wrong. Maybe Chairs isn't a spy after all. Actually, maybe I should look back and try and remember why everyone is ENTIRELY confident on his spyness. Because that's actually slightly odd... eh.
Because I have no clue how this game works, realized it about mission 2, and decided I'd just accept/reject missions on whimsy. I think if I was a spy I'd try a bit harder, but at this point I think we've won regardless. I'm not going to sign up for another Resistance game until I'm sure I understnad the rules, though.
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Are you sure Tables? What did you think about my last comment that I'm feeling more spyish about yuma? In particular, these were the things that jumped out at me:
--How he mixed up the mission team and then didn't answer your question afterwards
--That time when you called for his opinion, and he was like, "I'm here, just lurking, didn't realize you wanted me to say anything." That struck me as suspicious as well.
He's been kind of lurky all game, although maybe that's in character.
Anyway, my main point is, I don't want to rush this proposal. I'll do a reread myself. Seeing as how this is the last democratic proposal of this pivotal round, I'd like to hear from everybody. Who you think the spies are, and what missions you would and would not be willing to vote for. I'll give you a hint: the team will 99% likely be Mission 3 + X, so answers of that format are encouraged.
I believe this is a fair request and I think silence could be construed as scummy here. I don't want to propose another whiff and then leave it to the hammer.
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I really think chairs is a spy because he accepted M4P2.
tables, why do you think that yuma is the 4th resistance, and not me?
I agree that tables and mail-mi are resistance. yuma and chairs are spies, and jimmmm/walrus is 1-1, most likely jimmmm is the spy because walrus was on mission 3.
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I really think chairs is a spy because he accepted M4P2.
tables, why do you think that yuma is the 4th resistance, and not me?
I agree that tables and mail-mi are resistance. yuma and chairs are spies, and jimmmm/walrus is 1-1, most likely jimmmm is the spy because walrus was on mission 3.
Hmm... well after considering what Walrus pointed out, I'm less sure. Yuma's lack of reply is... annoying, for sure. Suspicious? I dunno. You + Jimm just makes the most sense as a spypair, to me. I think I explained why I thought this before... it's to do with Jimm's behavior towards you and I think yours towards him at certain points (If this sounds vague it's because I don't remember entirely myself anymore... I don't remember the reasoning but I do remember the conclusion. I'll definitely give the last few pages a re-read at some point though.)
Of you, Mail-mi and Yuma, I was pretty undecided around M3.5 but after that proposal went through, became a lot more trusting of Mail-mi, somewhat more of Yuma, and a lot less of you. Perhaps I should reconsider Yuma in there. I would vote for a mission of you + M3, since well the alternative is a mission you're proposing anyway so if you're a spy, that's the mission I'd want anyway.
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perhaps I should decide what my mission proposal will be now, and then if I don't propose that I am conf. spy.
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perhaps I should decide what my mission proposal will be now, and then if I don't propose that I am conf. spy.
I think that's a good idea. That's half the reason I wanted to get a reading from everyone now, so at least we can establish some accountability.
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Are you sure Tables? What did you think about my last comment that I'm feeling more spyish about yuma? In particular, these were the things that jumped out at me:
--How he mixed up the mission team and then didn't answer your question afterwards
--That time when you called for his opinion, and he was like, "I'm here, just lurking, didn't realize you wanted me to say anything." That struck me as suspicious as well.
He's been kind of lurky all game, although maybe that's in character.
Anyway, my main point is, I don't want to rush this proposal. I'll do a reread myself. Seeing as how this is the last democratic proposal of this pivotal round, I'd like to hear from everybody. Who you think the spies are, and what missions you would and would not be willing to vote for. I'll give you a hint: the team will 99% likely be Mission 3 + X, so answers of that format are encouraged.
I believe this is a fair request and I think silence could be construed as scummy here. I don't want to propose another whiff and then leave it to the hammer.
The spy team is Yuma/liopoil, Jimmmm, and chairs. Most definitely.
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Can I get a 24 hour extension on this deadline to give people a chance to respond?
In particular yuma. I'm debating between X = {yuma, liopoil}, but yuma what do you think about the situation? If you don't post then I think I'll probably go with lio. If you do, I will consider that. Does that sound reasonable to everyone?
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wow. I did not expect that, but yay!. So from my perspective either:
- The spy team is yuma-jimmmmm-chairs - quite possible, but there are so many other spyteams there could be...
- The spy team is walrus-tables-yuma - unlikely, why would tables do this team, and unlikely both pass the mission.
- Mail-mi and Walrus are spies, and both passed - I doubt, I think mail-mi would fail it.
- Tables and mail-mi are spies, and both passed - I doubt tables would propose this, and think mail-mi would fail it.
- Mail-mi is a spy along with two of {Yuma, chairs, jimmmm} - I think mail-mi would fail this for sure. Really not worth it to slowplay here.
- Tables and Yuma are spies along with one of {chairs, Jimmmmm} - could be, but why did tables pass this?
- Walrus and Yuma are spies along with one of {chairs, Jimmmmm} - could be, but why did walrus pass this?
So a lot of possibilities, but most are unlikely. big resistance read on mail-mi, big spyread on yuma.
So I think that most likely the top one here is the correct one. So if I was trying to get a completely clean mission I'd propose:
tables, mail-mi, liopoil, walrus.
but I'm not - I'm trying to get a mission with 1 or 0 spies.
I'm going to be putting myself, 2 of {mail-mi, tables, walrus}, and 1 of {yuma, chairs, jimmmm}.
If mission 3 is indeed clean then doing this will win the game anyway. So I am assuming that mission 3 is NOT clean.
If mission 3 is not clean, I think it is more likely that there are two spies on it than 1. if there is just 1, I see no reason to pass it. It doesn't guarantee that mission 4 is failed, but even if mission 4 is failed, they still need to fail mission 5. If you fail mission 3 instead, you're guaranteed at a chance at mission 5, and resistance will have less info than they would if you pass M3 and fail M4.
I can't think of a scenario where it is a good idea to pass M3 as the only spy on the mission, so I assume there are 2 on M3.
tables/mail-mi
tables/walrus
walrus/mail-mi
I need to decide which of the three is the least likely, then put them both on the mission, and not the third.
The thing with mail-mi is that in the last two games when he was put on a mission with a spybuddy, he failed it, and his partner passed it. So I think if tables is his partner, this would have happened (tables played last game). Walrus on the other hand, might be unaware of this and so mail-mi might have passed it? I dunno, maybe this is a bad way to think about it.
Tables proposed this mission. He might have put a spybuddy on it with him, and tried to send a message to him to fail the mission? Possible, but unlikely I think. So that supports walrus/mail-mi too.
now, remember that the mission liopoil, mail-mi, yuma failed. That makes walrus-tables more unlikely than tables-mail-mi.
So I leave mail-mi off.
That makes my mission liopoil, tables, walrus, and one of yuma/chairs/jimmm.
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from there, since I'm assuming mail-mi to be scum, I think I'll go with yuma as my fourth player.
So, if we reject Walrus' mission (and I will of course be rejecting walrus' mission), I will propose the mission Liopoil, tables, walrus, and yuma.
If I don't do this I am a spy.
I may change this mission up until walrus proposes his mission. Once he has proposed his mission, mine is locked in.
I also request SILENCE as soon as twistedarcher posts the results of the vote on walrus' proposal, because no matter what the result is we will know who the players on the mission are.
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Can I get a 24 hour extension on this deadline to give people a chance to respond?
In particular yuma. I'm debating between X = {yuma, liopoil}, but yuma what do you think about the situation? If you don't post then I think I'll probably go with lio. If you do, I will consider that. Does that sound reasonable to everyone?
I'll probably be rejecting your mission as I still kinda think you are a spy... so put whomever you want on it. I don't think I will be accepting it.
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from there, since I'm assuming mail-mi to be scum, I think I'll go with yuma as my fourth player.
So, if we reject Walrus' mission (and I will of course be rejecting walrus' mission), I will propose the mission Liopoil, tables, walrus, and yuma.
If I don't do this I am a spy.
I may change this mission up until walrus proposes his mission. Once he has proposed his mission, mine is locked in.
I also request SILENCE as soon as twistedarcher posts the results of the vote on walrus' proposal, because no matter what the result is we will know who the players on the mission are.
Hmm... interesting. I think that mission is clean. Well, one spy. You. But now you've soft locked yourself into that I'm less sure. Maybe you and Yuma? You and Walrus perhaps, although I doubt he'd has passed M3. Maybe you are clean all along. That would possibly mean M3 was double spy. Or it could be Yuma, as Walrus/Mail-mi are thinking (well, Yuma/Lio is their thought but assuming Lio is town...). I'd really like Yuma to contribute more thoughts, I've found it hard to solidify an opinion on him for a while. Like...
Can I get a 24 hour extension on this deadline to give people a chance to respond?
In particular yuma. I'm debating between X = {yuma, liopoil}, but yuma what do you think about the situation? If you don't post then I think I'll probably go with lio. If you do, I will consider that. Does that sound reasonable to everyone?
I'll probably be rejecting your mission as I still kinda think you are a spy... so put whomever you want on it. I don't think I will be accepting it.
Sure, but other people might approve it. I think it has a decent chance to go through, unless all the spies vote it down (and if that happens it will hopefully make M5 easy to get right). And Yuma, you still never answered my question from way back when. In particular: Yuma, you proposed for M4.4 a team of Yuma, Tables, mail-mi, Jimmmmm. I wanted to know what you thought the spy team was, I assume you think it's the three you didn't pick i.e. Walrus, Chairs, Lio. If Walrus puts you on, then the four people are me, you, Walrus and Mail-mi - three of which you've implied you think are Resistance. So... why would you vote that down? And not to mention it would give final leadership to Lio, who just said he's going to put Walrus and himself on. That's TWO people you've implied you think are spies, compared to this mission's one.
...
You know what? I think I've just talked myself into thinking Yuma just scumslipped. Or at least, needs to provide an answer for what he's said and done over M4.3 and M4.4
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Yeah, okay, I'm really concerned about this now Yuma, I've looked back at the M4.2 vote (sorry, not M4.3, forgot there was a proposal in between lol) and I really need some answers to these questions:
1) When you proposed M4.2, did you think your proposal was your best bet at a clean mission? How confident were you that you had the right pick?
2) Do you think M3 was clean? If not, who do you think the spy/spies were?
3) What if anything has changed since M4.2 in your reads? i.e. what are you current reads? Why has this changed?
Honestly I'm not thinking this looks good for you, but I'd like to see your explanation before I jump to conclusions.
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Yeah, okay, I'm really concerned about this now Yuma, I've looked back at the M4.2 vote (sorry, not M4.3, forgot there was a proposal in between lol) and I really need some answers to these questions:
1) When you proposed M4.2, did you think your proposal was your best bet at a clean mission? How confident were you that you had the right pick?
Best bet. Yes. That is why I proposed it. ~%55 confident
2) Do you think M3 was clean? If not, who do you think the spy/spies were?
I wondered a bit if there might be two spies on it and they both accepted. Maybe that is overthinking. I would say that if this were the case I would say Walrus is most likely, mail-mi next followed by you. But I again reiterate that I find it interesting that you have received no suspicion all game and are manipulating all of around your little fingers. But if that is the case, well done, and I guess we deserve to lose, so I am not even really considering it. But it is in the back of my mind.
3) What if anything has changed since M4.2 in your reads? i.e. what are you current reads? Why has this changed?
Nothing has changed I don't think. I am suspicious of walrus the most, mail-mi somewhat, liopoil somewhat and chairs a lot. I feel like I have said this before.
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All right. That's enough time.
I was hopeful that maybe this democratic mission would go through, but now I am not so confident. We already have claimed auto-rejects from lio and yuma, and who knows what chairs and Jimmmmm will do. Well, they do I guess.
yuma, thank you for responding, but I don't find your defense very compelling. It seems to me like you're annoyed by the attention and you're trying to shift the focus off of yourself. But I guess if you're not going to vote for this mission it doesn't really matter anyway.
I think lio's pre-locked mission is an interesting idea, and in general makes me feel somewhat better about him. That roster does seem reasonable, so hopefully the hammer wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if it comes to that. My main concern is maybe this is a lio-scheme to make himself look super responsible and innocent, when he's actually setting up a double-spy mission and can pin it on someone else. However at this point I'll have to take that risk--I just wanted to voice my concern.
So let's try propose: WalrusMcFishSr Tables mail-mi liopoil
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Sweet. I'm fairly confident that both my proposal and walrus' proposal are clean (clean meaning <2 spies).
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Mission 4, Proposal 4 has been proposed. Please send in your votes!
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Can somebody explain the mission proposal order system when we're done with this game? I'm still not sure what determines who proposes next.
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Can somebody explain the mission proposal order system when we're done with this game? I'm still not sure what determines who proposes next.
A random order. Look at OP (I think) for the order.
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Can somebody explain the mission proposal order system when we're done with this game? I'm still not sure what determines who proposes next.
Refer to the list in the OP of the thread. After walrus will be lio, then mail-mi, and so on. The list was determined randomly at the start of the game.
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Can somebody explain the mission proposal order system when we're done with this game? I'm still not sure what determines who proposes next.
Refer to the list in the OP of the thread. After walrus will be lio, then mail-mi, and so on. The list was determined randomly at the start of the game.
Ah. I didn't realize that list was anything other than a simple unordered player list.
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Mission 4 Proposal 4
Leader: WalrusmcFishSr
Proposed Team: Walrus, Tables, mail-mi, Liopoil
Votes
Accept: Walrus, Tables, mail-mi
Reject: Jimmm, Liopoil, Yuma, Chairs
Proposal is Rejected
Liopoil has 24 hours to nominate a team of 4 players.
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Propose mission: Liopoil, Tables, WalrusmcFishSr, Yuma
Radio Silence
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Mission 4 Proposal 5
Leader: Liopoil
Proposed Team: Walrus, Tables, Yuma, Liopoil
Votes
Accept: Everyone
Reject: No one
Proposal is Accepted
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Mission 4 Results: Pass, pass, pass, fail
Mission 4 is successful!
The Resistance have passed 3 missions successfully!!
The spy team of Jimmm, Yuma, and Chairs has 48 hours to guess who Merlin is.
Chairs is the assassin, and I will only accept the guess from him. Please submit your guess in the format Guess:PlayerName. Yuma and Jimmm are welcome to advise Chairs, but I will only accept the final guess from Chairs.
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So do we discuss in thread? Or via PM?
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Thread
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Is it locked for us Resistances?
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Is it locked for us Resistances?
ARE YOU MERLIN?
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Resistance can talk if they wish to.
Chairs needs to submit a guess by Friday at 7 pm. This is a firm deadline, the resistance will win if it is missed.
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So I think it isn't Tables.
My best guess is Liopoil. But I should probably do a reread.
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So I think it isn't Tables.
My best guess is Liopoil. But I should probably do a reread.
aww, darn, you got me! uhh, I mean, yay, you picked the wrong person...
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(http://i.imgur.com/UJf5S7Y.jpg)
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chairs, don't guess until I've had a chance to look through my notes and post about them.
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I'm Morgana by the way.
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One of my favourite ways of uncovering Merlin is by using Percival.
I remember recently while playing as Percival IRL, I proposed a Mission consisting of myself, Merlin and Morgana. Merlin rejected it and Morgana approved it. From that point on I knew which was which.
With that in mind, what do you think of #201 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9305.msg298357#msg298357) and #217 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9305.msg299996#msg299996)?
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We would generally expect Percival to want exactly one of me and Merlin on missions right? And maybe propose both.
Walrus proposed liopoil, Tables, Walrus. Later he added mail-mi. If he's Percival then he figured me out pretty early on and you would expect Merlin to be lio or Tables.
mail-mi proposed mail-mi, Tables, Walrus. If he's Percival you'd expect Merlin to be Tables or Walrus.
Tables rejected everything except the ones he proposed and the clean one Walrus proposed. He proposed mail-mi, Tables, Walrus. If he's Percival you'd expect Merlin to be mail-mi or Walrus.
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Resistance can talk if they wish to.
Chairs needs to submit a guess by Friday at 7 pm. This is a firm deadline, the resistance will win if it is missed.
Can he submit something just in case, and then change his mind before deadline?
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The fact that there was so little support for Missions with me on them makes me think Percival figured out who Merlin was pretty early on, which makes me think Tables is a likely Merlin.
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Resistance can talk if they wish to.
Chairs needs to submit a guess by Friday at 7 pm. This is a firm deadline, the resistance will win if it is missed.
Can he submit something just in case, and then change his mind before deadline?
Yes, absolutely. The deadline isn't meant to shackle you in any way, just to ensure that a guess is posted by that time.
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Cool thanks. chairs, make sure you submit a preliminary guess. At this stage I'd lean Tables.
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At this stage I'd lean Tables.
So I think it isn't Tables.
(http://images.wikia.com/random-ness/images/3/34/Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif)
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22 hours to go.
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At this stage I'd lean Tables.
So I think it isn't Tables.
(http://images.wikia.com/random-ness/images/3/34/Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif)
An attempt to draw attention to the fact the yuma thinks it isn't him?
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At this stage I'd lean Tables.
So I think it isn't Tables.
(http://images.wikia.com/random-ness/images/3/34/Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif)
An attempt to draw attention to the fact the yuma thinks it isn't him?
no, clearly an attempt to make it look like he is trying to draw attention to yuma thinking it isn't him.
and I'll have you know, this post is an attempt to make you think that I am trying to make you think that I am trying to make you think that I am trying to cover for tables.
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I think I will trust you more on this Jimmm. I was just going off gut reads throughout the game, but I do think you bring up some compelling points.
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FWIW guys, sorry. I really didn't understand game mechanics here. I think I should probably play one of these that's strictly straight-on.
Tentative (subject to change, etc etc, but if deadline hits final) Guess: Tables
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I think I will trust you more on this Jimmm. I was just going off gut reads throughout the game, but I do think you bring up some compelling points.
Well Tables is the obvious choice. Generally Merlin knows not to be the obvious choice. But generally Spies know that Merlin knows this, and I feel like Tables knows the game well enough to know that Spies know that. But heck, that's just a bunch of WIFOM.
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(http://i.minus.com/icLSrub8rNfed.gif)
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Aaaaaand stop.
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At this stage I'd lean Tables.
So I think it isn't Tables.
(http://images.wikia.com/random-ness/images/3/34/Michael_Jackson_popcorn.gif)
An attempt to draw attention to the fact the yuma thinks it isn't him?
Pretty much :(.
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I think I will trust you more on this Jimmm. I was just going off gut reads throughout the game, but I do think you bring up some compelling points.
Well Tables is the obvious choice. Generally Merlin knows not to be the obvious choice. But generally Spies know that Merlin knows this, and I feel like Tables knows the game well enough to know that Spies know that. But heck, that's just a bunch of WIFOM.
This is going to sound dumb, but, uhm... what do you think of Walrus?
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I don't know, and unfortunately I have to go to work now so I don't have time to look again. I trust your decision and I'm not at all confident that it's Tables.
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Guess: WalrusMcFish
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Chairs has guessed that WalrusmcfishSr is Merlin.
However, the true identify of Merlin is Tables!!
RESISTANCE WIN!!!!
Merlin - Tables
Percival - Mail-mi
Morgana - Jimmm
Assassin - Chairs
Spy - Yuma
VT - WalrusmcFishSr
VT - Liopoil
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Wooooooooooooo good game all!
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Well phooey.
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Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
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I really thought we'd lost that when Jimmmmm made those posts before. I just couldn't see the spies changing.
I find Merlin really hard to play, but I did enjoy this game. I was pretty nervous during M3.5 - I was initially going to throw the point and propose Jimmm/Lio/me as I said, but others talking gave me a reasonable cover to do something different. I was terrified all throughout that proposal, and from then onwards, that I'd blown my cover and Jimm was just waiting to assassinate me.
Good game everyone, and well played resistance and spies. I kind of feel slightly sorry for Chairs, getting spy and especially assassin when you genuinely don't entirely know what's going on can really suck. But given I knew you were a spy I don't feel bad for pressuring you about it ;D
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I really thought Jimmmm was Morgana when he approved M1.1 and Tables didn't.
Think of that! M1.1 being Merlin and Morgana--and I didn't even choose it!
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Jimmmmm PM'd me during 1.3 saying he already had a merlin read on Tables.
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I had a hard time with this game. I just couldn't quite figure it out...
One thing that I want to suggest is that harder deadlines are implemented. I took a strategy of not answering questions thinking that people wouldn't be able to delay the game by not voting. But instead I didn't answer, they didn't vote and everyone just sat there making me look more and more suspicious. Sure I would look suspicious either way, but looking suspicious because I didn't say anything in a 24 hour period is vastly different from looking suspicious because I didn't say anything over a 96 hour period.
Anyways, you guys figured us out pretty well. So good job, but I honestly have no idea how you did because I just don't quite grasp the dynamics of the game.
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Deadlines are hard to implement in this game -- I mean, what's the punishment for missing a deadline? If someone doesn't propose in time, do we skip this mission? If someone doesn't vote in time, do they automatically vote no?
Generally, I wanted to keep this as close to the real life experience as possible. The deadlines are more to keep the game moving than the be used against the players -- if they weren't there, players would take a much longer time to propose missions. But if someone wanted to take some more time, ultimately I didn't have a problem with it.
Chairs was obvious spy, and that hurt the spy team's chances -- I don't think any lurking on the spy team's part had anything to do with it. From knowing Chairs was spy, it was easy to figure out Jimmmm, and Yuma/Liopoil was a tossup that Merlin was able to ultimately guide in the correct direction.
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When I ran the game on another forum and did implement deadlines, votes would always default to no and missions would always default to pass. That made things a little easier to do deadlines wise.
Heh, not surprised I read as Merlin early. Merlin is REALLY hard to play. I did say to TA at some point I thought Jimmm had a Merlin read on me.
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I agree that Tables was the obvious Merlin choice--but then again I thought he was experienced enough that he was probably bluffing, dispensing sage advice and masquerading as the likely target. But I guess he double bluffed me :D I could imagine it's a very difficult role to pull off.
I was very pleased to see the last minute assassin target change to me. I'm good at being a distraction if nothing else haha
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Yeah... I was, uh, double bluffing ::).
But really I was just trying to look as generic resistance as possible.