Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Other Games => Hearthstone => Topic started by: Obi Wan Bonogi on August 21, 2013, 12:08:06 am

Title: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on August 21, 2013, 12:08:06 am
A friend of mine told me that the closed beta is going very well.  Browsing around Twitch.tv I see it has big viewership, Kripparian grabbing 10k+ viewers while playing the game. 

Has anyone explored the rules and mechanics of this game yet?  I will probably take the time to learn the basics some time later this week out of curiosity, even though I've heard the beta is difficult to get in.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on August 21, 2013, 09:02:42 am
I've not really been interested in joining the beta... partly because I was in the Kickstarter for one of its direct competitors (Hex).  Everything I've heard about the two suggests that HS is more casual, but therefore doesn't have the complexity of mechanics.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 22, 2013, 08:08:24 pm
I'm playing the beta. I was never a serious TCG player, so I can't tell you if it's too much for noobs or not. Seems interesting enough to me. It's not dumbed down to the point of Yugi-oh or something.

The problem is only the rate at which you get new cards I think. Booster packs, which contain only 5 cards, cost 100 in game gold, and you get gold at a rate of 5 per 5 per games + 40 per daily "quest", which is something like "win 3 games" or "kill 40 minions" or "do 100 damage to heroes" or something like that. 5-card packs seems small, but I guess it's okay since there's no mana cards. Mana is just accumulated at a rate of 1 per turn for the first 10 turns, then stays at 10 forever (unless you use some card abilities to change that), so the cards are all actual cards that do stuff.

Oh, you can also spend 150 gold entering the "arena" where you build and play a deck from random cards, and win "prizes" including possibly packs, gold, and "dust" which is supposedly used for crafting, but I haven't figured that out yet. I don't know the payout scale for the arena, but it's probably better than 1 pack per 100 gold if you're reasonably aware of what you're doing. So far I've only tried once, went 4-3, gold 1 pack  and maybe 40 gold and 100 dust.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on September 24, 2013, 05:39:49 pm
It's a business, not a charity.  You're supposed to want to shell out for more cards.

I got a beta key today, installing right now actually.  Let's say, I know a guy.  Toying with the idea of setting up a stream this weekend, so maybe you could watch a Dominion-er playing it. 

While I am fortunate to have gotten a key, I definitely don't like the way keys get distributed.  They don't really give them out at random to people who register for the HS beta on battle.net, or even give them to their most loyal customers.  And I don't know how they get it, but streamers apparently have these extra keys they can offer for lottery giveaways, like, it's almost as if just to *#@$ with people hoping to get one.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 25, 2013, 02:26:35 pm
After playing it a lot (at the expensive of Dominion), I'm actually pretty happy with how Hearthstone is, including the flow of gold. They have set up an interesting dynamic between gold, dust, packs, play mode, and arena. You play play mode to complete quests and get gold. You spend the gold to play arena, which gets you packs, dust, and more gold. You use the packs and dust to improve the decks you use to play in play mode so you can still have fun while trying to earn more gold for arenas. It's just the initial ramp that's a little tough, since you have no cards to make enough fun decks for play mode and no gold to play arena. But if you either seed yourself $10-$20 or grind a few quests with decks made of mostly basic cards, you can easily get to the point where you're having fun all the time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on September 25, 2013, 05:46:20 pm
Played my first two hours today.  What's not to like about the starting kit?  I built a mage deck out of the starting cards, got that 2/8 dude that gains 3 attack whenever he takes damage, so I could shoot my own 1 damage fireballs at him for hilariousness.  How is that NOT fun?!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 25, 2013, 07:38:06 pm
Well the problem is that you have to play a lot of games with the same cards, so you don't have that much deck variety. It's like base set Dominion is fun for a while, then you kind of want the expansions.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on September 25, 2013, 08:25:12 pm
Well the problem is that you have to play a lot of games with the same cards, so you don't have that much deck variety. It's like base set Dominion is fun for a while, then you kind of want the expansions.

There's 9 classes though, that's 9 decks at least.  If you don't want to play some of those 9 because they are weak, that's a beta balance issue, not a structural issue.  It's like, when League of Legends first came out, it was super imbalanced, so the free ten champs for the weak might be Jax, Malphite, Viegar, Alistar, Soraka, Janna, Annie, Fiddlesticks, Anivia, Ashe.  So if you didn't own some other champs from grinding it would be kind of stale once you rather quickly figured out which of those were decent.
Nowadays, newbies have 10 random champs to choose from, and sometimes one of them is urgot so there's only really 9, but usually none of them is urgot so they are good to go (Urgot is the name of one of few Scouts in league, not lingo.).  So league is balanced enough now that it is offering ~100% more variety with the same initial configuration.  For both Hearthstone and League it is the smart way to go here, if League just upped it to 20 champs to band-aid their issue, they would have had to throttle back to 10 champs later once the game was balanced in order to provide any incentive at all for casual players to drop cash on the game, and throttling back produces outcry and players quitting during the adjustment shock. 

I spent way too much text pre-empting an argument you might not even make, but oh well.  Procrastinating homework can cause that.  I have played like 10 f2p iTCGs at this point, so I feel like I am more and more able to see the patterns in success and failure. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on September 27, 2013, 12:50:51 pm
After playing it a lot (at the expensive of Dominion), I'm actually pretty happy with how Hearthstone is, including the flow of gold. They have set up an interesting dynamic between gold, dust, packs, play mode, and arena. You play play mode to complete quests and get gold. You spend the gold to play arena, which gets you packs, dust, and more gold. You use the packs and dust to improve the decks you use to play in play mode so you can still have fun while trying to earn more gold for arenas. It's just the initial ramp that's a little tough, since you have no cards to make enough fun decks for play mode and no gold to play arena. But if you either seed yourself $10-$20 or grind a few quests with decks made of mostly basic cards, you can easily get to the point where you're having fun all the time.

So far I've seemed to have discovered the comical third option, that is, so far I've been going roughly infinite in arenas.  (I think I might be losing a slight amount of gold on average, but it is more than offset by Quest Rewards that just trigger during the arena)

Maybe it's beginner's luck
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on September 27, 2013, 03:39:37 pm
HME what's your Hearthstone username?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on October 22, 2013, 02:32:28 pm
Has no one gotten in from the new beta waves?  They're sending out waves of invites every day to people who opted in on their battle.net accounts. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 22, 2013, 03:57:15 pm
Has no one gotten in from the new beta waves?  They're sending out waves of invites every day to people who opted in on their battle.net accounts. 

Not me.  I'll assume it's because I cancelled my WOW account a while ago.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jerk of All trades on October 22, 2013, 05:39:21 pm
Been in the Beta for quite a while now, it's fun, but there are a few problems:

1) The game is totally pay-to-win. There are 3/2 (cost 2) cards with no special text and cards with identical base stats but potentially VERY powerful abilities. (Knife juggler I'm looking at you).  The game claims to have match-making based on player level, but numerous times I've used my mostly-base cards deck and been slaughtered by custom decks with units that are strictly superior to my own.

2) If you decide to "earn" cards/gold by playing and questing, almost all of the quests require winning against other players. And you only get gold for wins. So before the last wipe I was totally frustrated.  I had crappy cards, and couldn't complete any quests or get any gold/wins because I lost probably 4/5 games I played.  After the wipe, things have been better, fewer decks with all rare cards.

3) The game is EXTREMELY luck based.  There are some cards that can be useless or totally game breaking depending on a random roll of the die. Instantly gain control of a random minion, or play a random minion from your opponents deck.  And, largely the game is all about getting the right counter-card at the right time. And quite a few games come down to luck, with just a little skill. There are 3 card combos that can do 20 damage before your opponent can even react.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on October 22, 2013, 07:47:37 pm
Just got a beta key. I'm DLing the game, I'm looking for something to replace Dominion because that's starting to get a bit boring and this seems like it might be worth it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on October 22, 2013, 09:18:09 pm
I enjoy it
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on October 23, 2013, 01:33:43 am
I have to admit the payment model doesn't feel as fun as LoL
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 29, 2013, 10:51:56 am
After playing a lot and talking to other people, I think the problem with the progression is that it's really rough on you when you're just starting if you're not generally good at card games like this. If you're losing, it's hard to get gold at all to get more cards, and even if you have a low MMR, there are people who are really bad but paid a lot of money and can still beat you with better cards, so that can be frustrating.

There should probably be a way to gain gold without having to beat other people, or a way to stratify matchmaking based on total dust value of your deck, because losing against someone better than you with similar cards doesn't feel as bad as losing to someone bad with amazing cards.

However, once you get past the beginning stages, it's a lot of fun. I basically just play arena, where you can get a chance to play with all kinds of different cards without having to actually acquire them.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on October 29, 2013, 11:14:07 pm
After playing a lot and talking to other people, I think the problem with the progression is that it's really rough on you when you're just starting if you're not generally good at card games like this. If you're losing, it's hard to get gold at all to get more cards, and even if you have a low MMR, there are people who are really bad but paid a lot of money and can still beat you with better cards, so that can be frustrating.

There should probably be a way to gain gold without having to beat other people, or a way to stratify matchmaking based on total dust value of your deck, because losing against someone better than you with similar cards doesn't feel as bad as losing to someone bad with amazing cards.

However, once you get past the beginning stages, it's a lot of fun. I basically just play arena, where you can get a chance to play with all kinds of different cards without having to actually acquire them.

You can grind for a week and have a top tier UTH deck if you want, though.  So like, why not just do that if you're losing to legendaries? 26 commons and 4 rares. 

Having more cards allows you more choices of which kind of deck to play, but it only provides you more power until you reach the scant amount of collecting required for UTH. 

I mostly play UTH now when I'm not goofing off because I don't have to feel like I lost a game because I'm missing a rare I need.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 30, 2013, 10:17:25 am
So I got a beta key, apparently in a large wave of beta keys.  And the game is unplayable for a lot of people.

Which is amusing, because right now Blizzard's beta testing looks about as good as Goko's launch.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on October 30, 2013, 03:11:09 pm
So I got a beta key, apparently in a large wave of beta keys.  And the game is unplayable for a lot of people.

Which is amusing, because right now Blizzard's beta testing looks about as good as Goko's launch.

There's a big difference between the standard of quality between a launch and a beta.  The product is not declared launched yet.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 30, 2013, 03:41:38 pm
So I got a beta key, apparently in a large wave of beta keys.  And the game is unplayable for a lot of people.

Which is amusing, because right now Blizzard's beta testing looks about as good as Goko's launch.

There's a big difference between the standard of quality between a launch and a beta.  The product is not declared launched yet.

Yes, I know.  What I said was less than flattering to Goko.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on October 30, 2013, 05:29:38 pm
So I got a beta key, apparently in a large wave of beta keys.  And the game is unplayable for a lot of people.

Which is amusing, because right now Blizzard's beta testing looks about as good as Goko's launch.

If by "about as good", you mean so much better it's not even close, then I agree. The interface can be confusing, and there's some crashing, but it's at least not painful to play.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on October 30, 2013, 05:32:05 pm
I have to admit the payment model doesn't feel as fun as LoL
It sure doesn't sound as fun as the one of Dota 2
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 30, 2013, 09:23:39 pm
So I got a beta key, apparently in a large wave of beta keys.  And the game is unplayable for a lot of people.

Which is amusing, because right now Blizzard's beta testing looks about as good as Goko's launch.

If by "about as good", you mean so much better it's not even close, then I agree. The interface can be confusing, and there's some crashing, but it's at least not painful to play.


...

My play experience has so far involved having to go on Blizzard's forums to find out how to get the download to run (which required deleting files on my HD), then getting it installed and being unable to do anything--the "Click to Start" screen does nothing.

So, no, I'd say that so far my experience has actually been worse than Goko's launch.  But it's somewhat forgivable because it's beta.

Again, this wasn't a knock on Blizzard... I mean, I spent eight years playing WOW and it was a fine experience.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on October 31, 2013, 08:02:35 am
I am completely addicted to this now. I had the Click to do nothing problem to begin with but not last couple of days. It is still clearly not Blizzard polished yet but the basics and the game mechanics seem in place.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 31, 2013, 08:57:01 am
So, like Jdaki, I finally got things working.  After a dozen or so games against the AI, my thoughts, coming from a very casual Magic player.

Mana system:  OK, we've stripped it down to the barest possible system.  OK, I can deal with that, it's bland but serviceable.

Blocking:  Wow do I hate this.  The attacker has all the advantages: s/he can choose the defending minion (except for Taunt), and the defender has no interrupts/reactions that can change things mid-fight.  Now I'm sure this was done to make things simpler and presumably faster, but it feels unbalanced, and makes the game less interesting.

Cards:  The cards are so very, very... bland.  I mean, a few of them do somewhat interesting things, but really... it feels bland.

Because of the combination of mana system and blocking, it seems like a deck should focus on tiny taunt cards and big attackers or big spells, then go after the opposing hero unless there's an easily killable big attacker opposing.

But granted, this is after just a dozen games.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on October 31, 2013, 10:37:50 am
They did an excellent job with the flavor text though.  Especially for those of us with eight years if lore knowledge.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on November 02, 2013, 07:42:47 pm
I've been watching this a lot, and it looks like a lot of fun.  I love the fact that you can pick up and put down the arena rather than being forced to sit down and do it all at once, and the game looks easy to get into.  And I love the warcraft flavor!

I play a lot of magic, and it doesn't look like it has the complexity of magic.  I do like the fact that it still maintains the natural build-up by adding more mana each turn (which is the reason I dislike a game like Netrunner.. I don't feel like it really builds to anything) without the possibility of mana-screw.  And asynchronous play is something I'm a fan of (Solforge, which I like a lot, has the same thing).

Unfortunately, no luck with the RNG of the beta key giveaway yet.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on November 02, 2013, 07:48:15 pm
Blocking:  Wow do I hate this.  The attacker has all the advantages: s/he can choose the defending minion (except for Taunt), and the defender has no interrupts/reactions that can change things mid-fight.  Now I'm sure this was done to make things simpler and presumably faster, but it feels unbalanced, and makes the game less interesting.

Yeah, it definitely speed things up (I would guess).  In a game like Magic, when you can't attack favorably, you just do nothing.  It often leads to stalemates where players just pass each turn until someone draws a spell that breaks the gamestate open, or ignores the gamestate, or something like that.

In hearthstone, it seems like when this happens, players still throw units at the heroes.  It encourages combat because the way to make sure you don't die is to actively kill opposing creatures, rather than simply deciding to never attack like you would in Magic.  Certainly a different pace.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on November 06, 2013, 07:24:43 pm

I play a lot of magic, and it doesn't look like it has the complexity of magic. 

I've heard this a lot.  I've yet to hear it from someone who played Magic extensively during Alpha, when the game only had one set so far, and that set was even made smaller, in terms of overall complexity, by its desire to get some core staples printed up from the getgo, like Lightning Bolt and Grizzly Bears. 

Granted, I am not one of those people, but I have heard stories from some of those people, and decks were not that complex back then.  The apples and oranges comparison between the most recent magic sets and a game with a couple hundred cards that is still trying to decide whether its lightning bolt should cost one mana or two is irritating. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on November 06, 2013, 07:43:45 pm
So, I probably don't have to explain to anyone that Hearthstone is very different from Dominion.  I have found one similarity pertaining to arena mode though; there's a certain value in identifying card combos that come up.  Sometimes you get offered a solid or average card, then you get offered that card again, and again, and again, to the point where you have so many copies you can bet your lifesavings on drawing it every hand. 

Here's the ones I've tested so far and had success with:

Bloodsail Raider + Flame Axe
These are both solid cards in their own right, so it might seem like "yeah pops you draft some good cards you get a good deck".  But I mean I once got so many of each of these that I abandoned the concept of a mana curve, drafted no cards that costed more than four mana, picked these two cards over anything at all offered alongside them, and just went crazy.  It was a 9-1 draft.  Probably more important to see multiple Flame Axes before you go for this, multiple Bloodsail Raiders could leave you hanging if you don't get those Axe offers.

Mana Wyrm + Mana Wyrm + Arcane Intellect
Mana Wyrm stacks with itself in a crazy way.  One draft I got six copies, and then picked lots of enablers.  Arcane Intellect is the best, because it counts as a spell, finds other cheap things that count as a spell, and gives you things to do with your mana so that you don't get empty hand syndrome from playing 6 one mana creatures

Raging Worgen + Inner Rage/Cruel Taskmaster + Warsong Commander

I had most of my experiences with this back before Battle Rage was nerfed, but I think I did this at least once while Battle Rage was weak.  Still I put it last because I can vouch for it the least.  Humorously, going to the effort of crossing the Ts and dotting the Is to put this big combo together lets you use 8 mana to do something mages do just by stacking their best common: deal 12 unexpected damage.  You don't expect it as much from a Warrior though, so that's why it's good.
Charge is kind of an iffy card since the loss of Battle Rage so I don't think you'd want to incorporate that unless you had double Auctioneer or something.

None of these combo I've found so far can actually incorporate a card that is really bad and make it good.  Those are harder and riskier to find because you don't have much experience with those cards, and the transition is more tricky and dangerous.  I think it's an interesting potential area, though.  Like, quadruple Soul of the Forest and Wisp or something?  I would only feel confident telling you that doesn't work after having a chance to try it myself.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on November 06, 2013, 07:50:14 pm

I play a lot of magic, and it doesn't look like it has the complexity of magic. 

I've heard this a lot.  I've yet to hear it from someone who played Magic extensively during Alpha, when the game only had one set so far, and that set was even made smaller, in terms of overall complexity, by its desire to get some core staples printed up from the getgo, like Lightning Bolt and Grizzly Bears. 

Granted, I am not one of those people, but I have heard stories from some of those people, and decks were not that complex back then.  The apples and oranges comparison between the most recent magic sets and a game with a couple hundred cards that is still trying to decide whether its lightning bolt should cost one mana or two is irritating.

I guess the main difference between the two games is the asynchronous nature of Hearthstone, whereas in Magic every single action can be responded to.  I don't think there's any way at all to have this difference without losing at least some complexity.  Not that this is necessarily a bad thing for Hearthstone.. there is still plenty of room for complexity!  And note that more complexity is not necessarily a good thing.

Interestingly enough, the one thing that bugs me about Hearthstone the most is the secrets.  I don't know exactly what it is about them, but they just really don't sit well with me.

Comparing Hearthstone to Magic's first set just isn't a fair comparison, I don't think.  That was 20 years ago, and so much has changed since then.  Hearthstone absolutely blows Alpha out of the water in terms of execution, rules clarity, and really any comparison you would like to make, as it well should.  If a game came out with a set like Alpha today, the game wouldn't survive because the standards are so much higher.

You are right in that comparing Hearthstone to a game that's been around for 20 years isn't entirely fair to it, but I don't think comparing it to an expansion that came out 20 years ago is a fair comparison either.

The fact is that it looks like a very good game, and one I look forward to playing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on November 06, 2013, 08:15:43 pm
The comparison people tend to be making is "Theros + M14 + Ravnica block vs. fledgling beta test", which is not a fair comparison in terms of complexity.

Instants offer more complexity than not having instants does.  But that is just one kind of design space that is blocked off.  Hearthstone could explore its design space more fully than Magic does with its design space, and vice versa, depending on card design.  It's not even intuitively obvious or provable that Magic has more overall design space just because it has that thing that Hearthstone can't have, Hearthstone has lots of things Magic can't have, like Sense Demons. 

Magic is still a turn-based game, you just take turns with priority, and game of Magic has thousands of priority passes, while a game of Hearthstone will have about twenty.  When shuffling decks is a significant portion of setup, priority passes make sense as the amount of pondering required by the players is helping them enjoy more choices-per-shuffle.  In Hearthstone the computer shuffles, and telling the computer "no, i don't want to Giant Growth his guy right before it attacks" adds more slog than benefit, so it makes sense to find complexity elsewhere.

All that said, I wish Hearthstone would do a little bit more with the space they have.  For instance, Knife Juggler could say, "Battlecry: Choose a target. Whenever you summon a minion, deal 1 damage to that target".  Would still work fine.  I'd also like it if secrets had modes (like Druid cards), giving you more control over the events of your opponent's turn.  Some things along those lines.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on November 06, 2013, 08:27:32 pm
You're absolutely right on the Sense Demon thing.. there are so many things that Hearthstone can do that magic can't because Magic is a physical game.  Magic would have a difficult time handling something as simple as the Priest's hero ability. 

Hearthstone still has plenty of time to work with the space they have.  For example, Hearthstone has a ton of potential design space that involves card transformation that magic just doesn't have access to because those things are too hard to Magic to track.  I assume that they will delve into this space given enough time.

Heck, Magic can't even do hitpoints.. as used to it as I am, I do think toughness is so much less desirable than hitpoints in a digital game.. it's just better for magic because it's less information to track.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on November 08, 2013, 10:33:08 am
You're absolutely right on the Sense Demon thing.. there are so many things that Hearthstone can do that magic can't because Magic is a physical game.  Magic would have a difficult time handling something as simple as the Priest's hero ability. 

Hearthstone still has plenty of time to work with the space they have.  For example, Hearthstone has a ton of potential design space that involves card transformation that magic just doesn't have access to because those things are too hard to Magic to track.  I assume that they will delve into this space given enough time.

Heck, Magic can't even do hitpoints.. as used to it as I am, I do think toughness is so much less desirable than hitpoints in a digital game.. it's just better for magic because it's less information to track.

The thing is, a lot of that design space (card transformation and the like) is covered by Hex.  Since those are going to be the two big digital competitors, it feels like Blizzard is positioning HS to be the "simpler" game, which, I mean, isn't necessarily a bad strategy when it comes to things like market share.  When it comes to attracting strategic players, perhaps not so much.

And as far as fair comparisons go, I think it's perfectly fair to compare current HS and Hex to current MTG.  The only real difference in terms of ability to create game complexity is the number of different cards available.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on November 08, 2013, 01:36:26 pm
Well here are my first impressions after maybe 50 or so games (I dunno maybe more, it's pretty moreish)
I have no previous ccg experience at all, so I'm pretty rubbish, I don't really understand the strategies or deck building, I can obviously work the numbers of given encounters to see what is preferential for me in a rough kind of form. There isn't really any scope for teaching this stuff in the game at this stage. Anyone got any good links?
I enjoy the game mostly, though often it does feel completely luck driven, which for me is a bad thing, though I'm willing to accept that this may not be true and it's that I picked rubbish cards.
Card draw seems really important, but of the few cards I've seen so far, I don't see how one can easily force good draw to play the combos that are interesting to work out.
The polish is generally there and with a couple years of WoW and having played Warcraft I enjoy the lore and little touches.
The money aspect seems pretty well pitched at this stage, at least I'm not sure how else they might do it. Perhaps it would be cool if they were really ambitious and made a gold - card auction house. I guess the crafting thing maybe cancels that out.
Overall, I can see this being massively successful. Blizzard are good at making games as crack. But I'm not totally convinced of true longevity right now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on November 23, 2013, 05:32:52 pm
So apparently the draft format just isn't for me.

After 4 times in the Arena, I've won a total of 2 Arena matches.  Drafted 2 nice legendaries... never drew either in seven matches.  Any thoughts?

I will say, the cards that aren't basic cards are certainly more interesting than the base cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on November 24, 2013, 08:55:13 am
I play a lot of HS these days. (Well, am on a break till Wednesday, but whatever). I am playing Constructed mainly at this point but I had a long streak of arena only.

Overall opinion is that it is quite simplified and fast, it cannot compare at all with MTG or the likes, but, damn, it is TOO MUCH FUN.


@Kirian - It's not really a "draft" format, but whatevers :D I am not the best arena player ever (when I was focusing on it, my average was 6-3, but am much worse lately), but I can give some pointers. I used these when starting: http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/9742094161 and https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvFHvRgCHF4RdG16dlFNdUI1UXhhWk0yS1lITW82cnc#gid=1

So, Arena is quite easy. Legendaries help (esp when a guy dropped me 3 Tirions) but generally do not matter that much (I mean, of course they are powerful but it does't matter a lot if you get them or not, generally when you analyse limited formats, commons/uncommons are the things that matter the most, as you see the most of them).

There are few things you need to know when actually picking cards. Narrow cards always suck (Sacrifical Pact, Murlock Tribals). Cards that give no board advantage generally suck (Charge, Holy Light, Eye for an Eye, Mind Blast), 1HP guys always suck (Magma Raider, Dust Devil). What you actually want:
0. Class Specific - each class has a few very strong cards that you always want. Wont list them all, most are just the top cards in respective classes in the links that I gave.

a. Bombs - big, meaty, hard hitting creatures that need to be dealt with or they win the game very fast. They have a huge board presence, are a huge threat and usually trade 2 for 1 or better. Most Legendaries, Venture Co., Stormwind, Boulderfist, Sunwalker.

b. Removal -Any card that kills a creature.  Includes Weapons, and weapons are almost always best picks, in general. Class specific.

c. Effective creatures - They need to have relevant abilities and good stats, or just supreme stats. Disruption (Spellbreaker, Ooze that kills weapons), Sudden stat boost (Shattered Sun Cleric, Dark Iron Dwarf), hard to remove taunt guys (Senjin Shieldmaster, Sunwalker, Defender of Argus in a sense), "two for one" guys (Argent Commander, Stampeding Kodo,  Azure Drake), guys with great stats (Yeti), Value Creatures (Cult Master, Brewmasters).

d. Guys with good abilities but not necesarily good stats (Owl), vanillas with OK stats (3/2 for 2 Dino).

e. Least of 3 evils - when you get 3 sucky cards, one that sucks the least :D


Second thing to pay attention to is the curve. You want to curve out at 6 and 7, and you want your curve to top (have most cards at) 4. Sometimes 3 or 5, if you are playing a slower/faster deck.

---

As for actual play, few things are to be considered:

a. Maintain board advantage - most important thing. Whenever you can remove their creatures, if you make the trades they are profitable for you, if they make them, it is profitable for them. Any "weak" creature left can be Boosted with a Cleric or Dwarf and kill your much better guy. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but generally if you can, remove their creatures.

b. Maintain card advantage - trade 2 for 1. Save your removal for prime targets when possible, try to get at least 2-3 guys with your board wipe. Use your cards efficiently, if you have similar board position and he has more cards, he is generally in much better shape.

c.  Know your opponent - VERY, very important. You need to know strengths of your opponent and play around them. For example, on 5 mana, Priest can cast Holy Nova. Never put two guys with 2 hp on turn 4, you are just giving him cards/board advantage. Similary, do not play out your big threat against Priest to get Mind Controlled - play them if you can remove them or after he used his Mind Control.
Can't list them all, in a rush, but they are mostly "X damage to everything" spells and some few others.

--


As for constructed, I started enjoying it A LOT.

I have a few decks, 3 are mostly complete:
Hunter's Unleash the Hounds - Its a Combo-Control thing, you control the board for 6-9 turns, than, you drop a lot of 1 mana beasts, cast Unleash the hounds and win in 1 swing.
Suicide Warlock - basically, lot of aggressively costed creatures with drawbacks that you basically try to ignore.
Hunter's Zoo - basically, play beasts and attack each turn.

And two that I needs a bit more cards for, but they are still nice:
A Mage and a Priest Control.

Also, I oppened Tirion Fordring recently, so am going to be making a Paladin. :D


Totally hooked on Hearthstone  ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on November 24, 2013, 04:55:01 pm
If I was curious about this, what would I need to do to try to get involved?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on November 24, 2013, 04:57:51 pm
If I was curious about this, what would I need to do to try to get involved?

Well, first you need a Battle.net account.  You can do that at us.battle.net... or if you already have one, you can just go there.  Somewhere in the account management you'll find a beta opt-in form.  Then... wait until you get a beta invite.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on November 24, 2013, 05:09:42 pm
If I was curious about this, what would I need to do to try to get involved?

Well, first you need a Battle.net account.  You can do that at us.battle.net... or if you already have one, you can just go there.  Somewhere in the account management you'll find a beta opt-in form.  Then... wait until you get a beta invite.

Terrific! Done!

Edit: how long do you expect it might take to get the invite?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on November 24, 2013, 05:17:05 pm
If I was curious about this, what would I need to do to try to get involved?

Well, first you need a Battle.net account.  You can do that at us.battle.net... or if you already have one, you can just go there.  Somewhere in the account management you'll find a beta opt-in form.  Then... wait until you get a beta invite.

Terrific! Done!

Edit: how long do you expect it might take to get the invite?

Not sure.  It was a couple of weeks for me, but Blizzard has made a ton of money off me over the years, and I suspect customer loyalty might bump the queue, but I have no way of knowing that for sure.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: WanderingWinder on November 24, 2013, 05:27:10 pm
Got mine yesterday (after a couple months). Also, open beta starts next month.

Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)

Doing reasonably well - so far constructed is.... like quite easy, arena I'm doing middlingly.

I also have very little idea as to what other cards are out there, so far at least.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on November 24, 2013, 05:31:51 pm
Man, I wish I had done this earlier!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on November 24, 2013, 05:38:31 pm
Got mine yesterday (after a couple months). Also, open beta starts next month.

Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)

Doing reasonably well - so far constructed is.... like quite easy, arena I'm doing middlingly.

I also have very little idea as to what other cards are out there, so far at least.

All the available cards are listed in the Crafting list.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on November 24, 2013, 07:10:57 pm
So apparently the draft format just isn't for me.

After 4 times in the Arena, I've won a total of 2 Arena matches.  Drafted 2 nice legendaries... never drew either in seven matches.  Any thoughts?

I will say, the cards that aren't basic cards are certainly more interesting than the base cards.

I think one of the big problems that you can have with arena when you start out is falling in love with "shiny" cards and cute tactics, especially if you're seeing these cards for the first time. You can actually win a lot of arena without doing anything cute by just picking high quality minions, with a focus on card advantage, and then playing safely to maintain board control. I have a few quibbles with the list Grujah posted, but you should do pretty solidly mostly just following that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on November 24, 2013, 07:14:33 pm
I don't plan on paying for anything at this point. I know that you can get cards through grinding, can that grinding be done against bots? People you know? I'm trying to get a few other friends to sign up for the beta as well.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: WanderingWinder on November 24, 2013, 07:43:36 pm
Got mine yesterday (after a couple months). Also, open beta starts next month.

Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)

Doing reasonably well - so far constructed is.... like quite easy, arena I'm doing middlingly.

I also have very little idea as to what other cards are out there, so far at least.

All the available cards are listed in the Crafting list.
I'm well aware that I *could* know them, but I am not going to spend the time to just go memorize. I'll figure it out organically, eventually.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on November 24, 2013, 07:46:34 pm
Man, I wish I had done this earlier!
Same here. I opted in at least a couple weeks ago (after online Dominion started feeling a bit same-ish) and haven't heard anything yet.

I tend to enjoy games most when I figure out as much as I can without spoilers, so I'm avoiding reading anything substantial about the game. (Don't know if I'll even like it.) Gonna be hard to continue with that policy when actually playing though given that the people I'm playing against will know a lot more about the game already.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on November 25, 2013, 04:46:51 pm
So apparently the draft format just isn't for me.

After 4 times in the Arena, I've won a total of 2 Arena matches.  Drafted 2 nice legendaries... never drew either in seven matches.  Any thoughts?

I will say, the cards that aren't basic cards are certainly more interesting than the base cards.

I'm glad I'm not the only one doing terrible, though I'm doing terrible in all the modes. I read over Grujah's links and post and drafted a much better deck, but still only won two games. Not knowing what exactly is in my opponent's hand is obviously a major detriment. Too often though, it does feel like "how the heck did he just happen to have that card what he needed, surely it's a fluke".
The slow trickle of gold doesn't really seem to reward you to just play in long sessions though as the quests don't update bar one a day, this does not encourage me to keep playing beyond a few games a day until I've grinded enough to get the 150 to have another try at arena...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on November 25, 2013, 07:57:16 pm
@HME Yeah, cute stuff rarely work. Brewmasters and that Warrior's guy that does +2/+0 and 1 damage sometimes do work. Still, only few in a deck. I have few quibbles with my list, too, so, yeah :D.

@WW Thing is you really need to know what to play around, so knowing them all helps a lot (also, you don't have to alt-tab everytime opponent plays a secret :P).


Also, if anybody wants a help, like a skype session while drafting or whatever, I'd be up for it. PMs. I do not promise success, however.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on November 25, 2013, 07:57:49 pm
Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)
Just so you know, this isn't enough information for anyone to buddy you.  You have to use the ID, which has a # sign and some digits to add people.  And sadly and frustratingly they didn't make usernames unique, so even if one of us bumps into you randomly we won't know for sure it is you.
EDIT: Mine's KirbyHero#1343
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on November 25, 2013, 07:58:55 pm
I would say just learn secrets organically.  If you learn them organically you'll remember them with a proportion that matches their popularity, which is a good thing.  Having Repentance in your mental checklist is clutter because no one uses Repentance
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on November 30, 2013, 10:14:00 am
Ok, add me guys, I am
grujah(et)gmail(dot)com
or
2516
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: WanderingWinder on November 30, 2013, 11:48:25 am
Seems pretty enjoyable - I'm on under "Dominionater" (sadly WanderingWinder is too long...)
Just so you know, this isn't enough information for anyone to buddy you.  You have to use the ID, which has a # sign and some digits to add people.  And sadly and frustratingly they didn't make usernames unique, so even if one of us bumps into you randomly we won't know for sure it is you.
EDIT: Mine's KirbyHero#1343
I understand that. I'm not really looking for you guys to buddy me.

Learning what to play around: yeah, I'd look it all up if I really cared about winning. But right now, it's just not worth the bore, because I don't care *that* much about winning. So a vague idea is fine.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 05, 2013, 05:12:26 pm
Have to brag somewhere, 9-x arena record has been eluding me for some time now, but got on a roll yesterday/today, played/drafted to be best of my ability, and finaly got 9-2, two times in a row! :D It was Rogue and Paladin, both heavy on twodrops. Hopefully streak doesn't end here.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 05, 2013, 06:03:59 pm
Have to brag somewhere, 9-x arena record has been eluding me for some time now, but got on a roll yesterday/today, played/drafted to be best of my ability, and finaly got 9-2, two times in a row! :D It was Rogue and Paladin, both heavy on twodrops. Hopefully streak doesn't end here.
Congrats.

Don't play much arena Rogue, but when I do I get Empty Hand Syndrome, so I'm surprised 2-drop.dec worked out for you.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 05, 2013, 06:16:13 pm
I love Rogue in Arena. 3/4 weapon helped a ton at keeping my guys alive and not overcommiting. Biggest problem was that 2 Defias Leaders and 3 Mad Bombers do NOT work well together  ;D. I had reasonable late-game but both decks were just mainly cost aggresive decks.
Pally especially didn't have problem with empty hands, I had 2 Hammer of Wraths, 1 Azure Drake and 2! Argent Commanders (instane) which are auto 2-for-1s and keep your hand full.

That + I always give extra attention to playing around sweeps. I hate nothing more than to be blown out by them, so I don't let it happen often.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on December 05, 2013, 06:27:00 pm
This thing needs to go in open beta already! I have at least 2 friends, maybe 4, who are gonna play it with me. It's probably good that it hasn't started yet since finals are next week, but I still can't wait!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 05, 2013, 07:15:38 pm
Is there a date yet for open beta?  I remember reading that it was going to be a december a while ago, but just googled it and didn't find an exact date at all.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 05, 2013, 11:02:35 pm
Is there a date yet for open beta?  I remember reading that it was going to be a december a while ago, but just googled it and didn't find an exact date at all.

Pretty sure they didn't specify a date.

And it's Blizzard, when they say December they often actually mean June, two year from now.  ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 06, 2013, 05:08:56 pm
I love Rogue in Arena. 3/4 weapon helped a ton at keeping my guys alive and not overcommiting. Biggest problem was that 2 Defias Leaders and 3 Mad Bombers do NOT work well together  ;D. I had reasonable late-game but both decks were just mainly cost aggresive decks.
Pally especially didn't have problem with empty hands, I had 2 Hammer of Wraths, 1 Azure Drake and 2! Argent Commanders (instane) which are auto 2-for-1s and keep your hand full.

That + I always give extra attention to playing around sweeps. I hate nothing more than to be blown out by them, so I don't let it happen often.
Yeah, Pally usually doesn't get empty hand syndrome, they have lots of tools. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on December 06, 2013, 06:11:03 pm
Got my beta key on Tuesday so I've played some games. I didn't know much going in. My first observation is that it's very, very similar to MTG. (To be fair, the only Magic I've played is Duels of the Planewalkers 2013 on the iPad.) I think it's fair to call it a streamlined Magic clone. The overall vibe of the UI also feels similar to DotP, with the swishy, evocative animations.

So, nothing too fresh that I see, and this strategy of refinement has worked for Blizzard before (since WoW is arguably a streamlined EverQuest clone). Being free-to-play is nice, because one reason I didn't get into Magic is not wanting to pay so much, although I'd still prefer something like subscription fee or one-time payment over free-to-play, because FTP incentivizes the devs to make progression unpleasantly slow (so that you feel tempted to pay money). Having access to full deck-building capabilities at no cost is very nice, since DotP has only limited deck-building capability despite costing money. Hearthstone is definitely positioning itself to disrupt computer versions of MTG.

The game itself I have mixed feelings about. The play flow is very well done, because you never need to wait for your opponent during your turn, and individual turns are usually quick too. That avoids the sometimes ponderous feel of DotP (and I assume other computerized Magic too). The individual turns often have interesting tactics in them. The deck-building interface is a little clunky, but usable.

On the other hand, there's a lot of randomness. For example, I've had a game where I just happen to draw Fireball when I needed it to kill my opponent that turn, and otherwise I likely would have lost. It sucks for close games to be decided by fluke luck in the end. The card design doesn't help here either, given that there are cards with explicit randomness built in. For example, there's one card that takes control of a random enemy minion. That's enormously swingy: taking their best minion can be game-winning, and taking their worst minion can be almost useless.

There are some CCG-isms that I wish they had rethought somehow but I can't blame them for. For example, having a maximum of 2 cards per type in a deck feels inelegant in a post-Dominion world, but I don't have any better idea about how to do it. Also, limiting certain cards to certain classes just feels like a limitation on deck creativity to me.

Overall, it's fun enough that I'll continue to play for now, although I expect it'll get dull given how slowly new cards are acquired to build new decks with.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 06, 2013, 06:51:34 pm
HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 06, 2013, 07:18:17 pm
Meh, I don't agree on so many points.
I don't see how it is "very, very similar" to Magic.  I'm talking paper/MTGO Magic here, gameplay and metagame is so, so much more complex that I don't really see the compassion. I didn't really play DotP, only watched some of it on youtube, and while it is basically "a tool to learn the rules of magic" its still more complex than HS.

HS is very simple, and it turns out that that isn't such a bad thing after all.

It being more streamlined, I agree there.

I also agree that it has quite more "random" spells than usual. Thing is you play around it to maximize that "random" will actually be in your benefit. For example, the minion that you mentioned, you try not to play it when it can either "win or die" but when he has 4 equally strong minions. Yes, sometimes you win or lose on the "fluke luck", and that can be not-fun sometimes. Your luck averages out in the end and it's how well you played around your luck that gives you most wins.
As for drawing your only out (Fireball), well, that's the nature of TCGs/CCGs. Again, you play around it. You know what your chances of drawing a fireball are. So does your opponent. You always play it so that you have as many outs as possible that you can draw. You always play so that you give your opponent as few outs as possible. Sometimes, your only out is a Fireball. Yes, sometimes you topdeck it, but most of the times you don't. Yes, it sucks for your opponent who probably played good and left you with only one out to lose, but well, that's what you get when you sign up for a card game. The former argument of "it averages out" still stands.

Other thing is that topdecking an only out is so fun. I mean, some of the most iconic moments of Pro Magic are exactly those - winning against all odds.

As for deckbuilding - I think you are way overestimation Dominon's influence on CCG world (which is non-existent). And honestly, you cannot compare dominion's "up to 10 of any card" with CCGs. In Dom, you actually need to work hard to both acquire the cards and make the deck consistently draw it. Acquiring cards is 0 work in CCGs (gamewise) and if you can put as many in as you want, drawing them consistently is a breeze. It would be like you had a premade deck in Dom (which would suck). Moreover, limits are need to actually some archetypes/decks (combo for example) viable but not overpowering.

Also, limiting cards to classes actually makes for more creativity, imo. Firstly, they need classes to catch that WC feel. And the only way to differentiate between them is to make some cards available only to certain classes. It's "creativity under restrictions", and it's been in CCGs from the very start. Hell, that's what dominion is all about! Isn't dominion more fun exactly because you don't have everything available in every game? That's the feel that they want to get too.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 06, 2013, 07:20:18 pm
HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).

I think it is quite bad as it is very situational and even when the situation in which it is good arrives, it's only average in performance.

As for design itself, I agree on HME. You play around the randomness anyway.

Edit: BTW, i have never ever see it swing the game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on December 06, 2013, 09:19:40 pm
Fair points.

Regarding how similar HS is to MTG, I don't mean that in a bad way. There's value in a good streamlined clone, especially one that plays in a different medium.

These are some of the similarities that I saw between the games:
There are a lot of differences too, but I found when learning Hearthstone that I instantly recognized "oh, this works basically how it works in Magic" whereas when I learned Magic, most of the mechanics were unfamiliar.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 06, 2013, 09:29:47 pm
Yeah, I guess you have a point, esp with DotP, which is much more creature combat oriented. And I do get that this "works better" as an online game than MTG as it is way more streamlined for online play (no priority passing etc).

HS is a simpler version of that and borrows quite a few mechanics, I agree. Thing is that my judgement is clouded as I play a lot of competitive Magic which is quite a different beast than competitive HS (which I follow to an extent).


And positioning of cards has no effect in Magic, as you can, in real life, rearrange them in any way (well, except Chaos Orb and Falling Star, but that is not legal in any format and from the VERY begging of Magic when Wizards had no idea what this game will actually look like).


Sorry for aweful grammar, no autocorrect on this computer. :D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on December 06, 2013, 09:56:24 pm
I see, I'm coming at it as a noob to both games, so maybe it's only at that level that they feel similar. What is it that makes the competitive levels feel so different?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 07, 2013, 02:09:04 am
HME and I seem to disagree on the design of cards like Mind Control Tech.  I think it's kind of unfun, HME says the game already has luck from draws so who cares.   
(I assume you are talking about that and not the legendary one, Sylvanas Windrunner.  She tends to not actually be very random because it's a deathrattle).

I think it is quite bad as it is very situational and even when the situation in which it is good arrives, it's only average in performance.

As for design itself, I agree on HME. You play around the randomness anyway.

Edit: BTW, i have never ever see it swing the game.

When the good situation hits, it's definitely above average. It's 3-for-1. The problem is that it doesn't occur all that often. But then again, it still trades evenly with most other 3-drops, so it's not terrible. Not worth using in constructed unless you know your opponent is massing minions (in which case you just avoid trading, in order to set it up), but not the worst rare you could get in arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 07, 2013, 06:29:13 pm
MC tech is bad in arena because the goal in arena is not to go 4-3, it's to go 9-3.  So optimal strategy is skewed towards punishing your opponent's weaker deck with consistent tactics rather using random events where you have a slight edge. 


High variance cards are powerful when you are behind, either in board position or player skill.  I'm always quick to YOLO bomber if I'm losing badly on board position.  Unfortunately there's a large group of weak arena players who (correctly, for that person) value Mind Control Tech much higher than a highly skilled drafter would because the variance brings them closer to a 50/50 winrate against more skilled players.  Combined with some lucky drafting offers that is an excellent strategy for going 9-2 occasionally. 

I do think that it's important that lower skilled and newbie players have an enjoyable experience and a nonzero winrate, but I don't think this is a healthy dynamic.  It flips the other way too, really, it kind of sucks that good players get skewed against Demolisher in favor of Injured Blademaster even if there's conceal or some other synergy going on. 

I think it'd be nice to rework cards like MC tech, and then to compensate, split Arena into multiple leagues.  Players who 9 consistently enough in the newbie league get promoted to an upper league with higher rewards that motivate them to stay there and face tougher competition.  Players who don't 9 consistently, or who get a burst of 9's then fall back off, play in a lower league, one that has a poorer risk/reward ratio on entry fee versus prizes.  If things are tweaked right, weaker players will get more wins in that league than they do in the current system, so the amount of prizes they earn could decrease very slightly or even increase.  Both leagues would have more exciting nailbiter matches and fewer blowouts, and less incentive to abnormally dodge or abnormally favor variance.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on December 07, 2013, 07:06:12 pm
Hm, I assumed that Arena uses match-making based on skill, already. Is that not true?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 07, 2013, 10:47:34 pm
Hm, I assumed that Arena uses match-making based on skill, already. Is that not true?
I'm glad you asked, it's often a point of confusion.  You are matched with an opponent with the same number of wins and losses as you.  If activity is really low, in a pinch, slightly different wins and losses.  Your past performance in arena and play mode has no effect on your matchmaking.  This is why it's possible for the streamers who get 7+ wins so consistently they profit.  If they were paired based on past performance, everyone but the best player on the server would average 3-3.  The best player would probably average like, 4-3.  There would be little to no incentive to get better.

It's cool to have a mode where actually improving gets you tangible rewards, but the current system makes a lot of players, especially ones unfamiliar with MTG, lose with demoralizing consistency.  I have a friend who took three weeks of questing and even spending real money before he got his first 9.  I got my first 9 the second time I played arena.  He gets smashed so much it's not fun for him, I occasionally am up against people around his skill level that are playing turn 1 coin, wisp, argent squire, secretkeeper as priest where it's just a boring chore to play out the game.  There needs to be a happy medium.

The next patch is not as radical as my proposition but it should bring a welcome improvement: the max number of wins increases to 12.  This means good players like HME will spend a greater proportion of their time paired against players with 8+ wins, the ones that present a good challenge.  There's a trickle down effect that players who go infinite will be spending nontrivial amounts of time in the 8-12 win range, and thus will not be starting anew in the 1-3 win range and steamrolling novice players and degrading their fun.  It will also shift the meta back to a more healthy attitude regarding variance.  MC tech will become a better card for skilled players, the risk that it whiffs in the 1-7 win range is still present, but there's a doubly large range of games with peers where it's variance is worth the strategic role it plays in your deck.  (Ideally you get it to synergize with freezing or shieldbearer or something.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 12:18:53 am
They announced more of the balance patch contents.  Well deserved nerfs to SSC, Flame Imp, and Argent Commander.  Unleash the Hounds removed from the game.

I'm surprised they made SSC a 3/2, instead of a 2/3.  2/3 would be more powerful, and SSC is an interesting card and a cute one so I thought they'd keep it as strong as possible.  That said, I think it's for the best.  In the same breath as I say SSC is interesting, I think cards that require another minion to already to be in play tend to restrict deck design.  And play choices too, do you play Raging Worgen or SSC first? Well that's not a hard one.

Flame Imp was really strong, and Warlock hero power is really strong.  Warlock shouldn't really get to have such nice things.

Argent Commander got a much lighter sentence than SSC, and that makes sense since Shaman would have a monopoly on six drops otherwise, and I think no one noticing and complaining about how insane Fire Elemental is is some sort of inexplicable design goal that Blizz has.  4/2 is probably a sufficient nerf. 

The forums are freaking out now about mage not getting any nerfs.  I'm not sure to what extent I should agree.  I'm leaning towards agreeing.  Blood imp'ed SSC is moving into frostbolt range and Mana Wyrm is a retarded one drop that needs no help from a 3 drop.  And Mage was already pretty good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 10, 2013, 12:47:06 am
I just got my beta key, and man, is it fun!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 10, 2013, 08:06:24 am
People are freaking out cause mage indeed is quite strong, and in this weekend's Managrind it took first 4 places in both EU and NA tourneys.

Argent Commander was soooo good. Like, every deck had to play it. 4/2 is a nerf, not a big one, though. He's still 2-for-one, except you can sac 2/1 into him now. Still very strong, priest still cant shadowword him.

Similar goes for IMP, he was quite good, he is still good but 3 damage does hurt more, so it's a good thing. People will still have to make loads of adjusment with Warlock Aggro in mind, and he'll just have to play a bit more safetly.

SSC nerf makes me sad, that is my fav card in the game.

Unleash the hound wasn't THAT good, but I guess people complained enough and comming out from no creatures on board to 30 damage in 1 turn really pissed people off and turned new people away from the game so it had to be done. I expected a nerf, like, they get +1/+0 if they have charge, charge if they don't. New one is interesting but needs testing. Synergizes awesomly with lots of hunter cards (Hyena, Buzzard).

Mindcontrol nerf underseved imo. It only dominates Arena, it just needs to show up less in Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 10, 2013, 10:59:56 am
People are freaking out cause mage indeed is quite strong, and in this weekend's Managrind it took first 4 places in both EU and NA tourneys.
I think the big thing is that this week, someone figured out that if you add giants to the freeze mage, you no longer get beat by healing, so between the freeze deck and a regular Mage aggro deck, you can cover all your bases. The Managrind format allows you to sideboard a whole deck, which really gives this style of having 2 decks with one character powerful. But nonetheless, Mage is still really strong. And now everyone is running this freeze + giants deck on ladder which is really annoying to play against, particularly because it drags the game out with turns in which you can't do anything.

Quote
Argent Commander was soooo good. Like, every deck had to play it. 4/2 is a nerf, not a big one, though. He's still 2-for-one, except you can sac 2/1 into him now. Still very strong, priest still cant shadowword him.
Still probably a must-have in almost any deck. A little harder to play though, since you have to make sure the little guys are all dead or you lose the body. This and the Cleric nerf make Harvest Golem even stronger that it already was.

Quote
Similar goes for IMP, he was quite good, he is still good but 3 damage does hurt more, so it's a good thing. People will still have to make loads of adjusmtent with Warlock Aggro in mind, and he'll just have to play a bit more safetly.
I was hoping to see some sort of change like this. The way penalties are done for the Warlock demons is really weird. Flame Imp, Succubus, Fel Guard, and Pit Lord are all undercosted by 1 mana and have a penalty to offset this, but for some reason, the bigger ones have a bigger penalty. 1 mana is a bigger deal for a 1-drop than a 5-drop, so having a 2 health penalty vs a 5 health penalty doesn't really make sense. If anything, Flame Imp needs a bigger penalty than Pit Lord.

Quote
SSC nerf makes me sad, that is my fav card in the game.
This didn't seem as broken strong as Argent Commander, but it was still in practically every deck, so I guess they figured they should give some other stuff a chance. The nerf is about as innocuous as you could get, since in a vacuum it still trades evenly with most other 3s (only exceptions are Scarlet Crusader and now Harvest Golem and Razorfen Hunter), but it does help AoE deal with these aggro decks better.

Quote
Unleash the hound wasn't THAT good, but I guess people complained enough and comming out from no creatures on board to 30 damage in 1 turn really pissed people off and turned new people away from the game so it had to be done. I expected a nerf, like, they get +1/+0 if they have charge, charge if they don't. New one is interesting but needs testing. Synergizes awesomly with lots of hunter cards (Hyena, Buzzard).

Mindcontrol nerf underseved imo. It only dominates Arena, it just needs to show up less in Arena.

UTH and Mind Control were that good in the way they affected deck building. I think more than aggro decks, these decks made it really hard to play slow control decks. Because if you were too slow, there would at some point be a chance to get killed by UTH, or when you finally got out your Rag/Ysera, they would get MC'd. They just generally made you not want to have big minions in your deck, because the risk/reward wasn't in the right place. But with these nerfs, I think it's easier to build a deck based on swatting away aggression for the first few turns and then playing big guys bigger than 6-drops. Mind Control only seemed powerful in Arena because it's harder to build a strong deck without big guys in Arena.

The problem, of course, is that with the OTK Hunter out of the picture, there's one less thing that beats freeze mage, which means more people are going to be playing it...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 11:58:06 am
I thought Ice block wrecked all OTKs
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 10, 2013, 12:36:50 pm
I thought Ice block wrecked all OTKs
Not with Flare.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 01:28:33 pm
They still have flare.. but I guess the class might not have any viability at all, now, so it doesn't matter.

I agree Mind Control needed to be nerfed so that playing big guys can make at least a little sense, but I hate that the way they nerfed it means the nerf has the least impact on control mirrors and the most impact at priest v aggro, which priest was already having a hard time with.  Mind control's impact against Ancient of War through Deathwing didn't change nearly as much as its impact on Argent Commander, which was a healthy steal that gave Priest a fighting chance against aggro (sort of)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 10, 2013, 02:16:06 pm
I guess I have to try to build some sort of Hunter deck with King Krush and Tundra Rhino...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 03:14:02 pm
Tundra Rhino tends to underwhelm me.  I think just a midrange goodstuff deck could work.  Buzzard, Companion, Ironfur, Dragonhawk, Houndmaster, Savannah Highmane.  King Krush works fine as a jank pyroblast finisher. 

I stubbornly still think Dragonhawk is an underrated card.  It's bad against the removal classes, for sure, but you can cantrip it on a Buzzard instead of trying to do anything with it, and you can also use it just before a board clear to make sure you force the board clear.  Like, say it's about to be a druid's turn 4 and you have nothing but a Leokk in play.  You can drop Young Dragonhawk+hero power to force the druid to Swipe rather than Bite, helping you deplete the Druid's AoEs.  If he bites anyway, Houndmaster, Timber Wolf, Dire wolf, and that epic beast lunge all deal a harsh punishment for ignoring the threat.  That's something most one drops can't do, if someone drops baby boar or leper gnome it's like, whatever, 2 damage, I'll let you die from splash when I AoE later.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 03:17:28 pm
Also.  Tinkmaster Overspark hitting Novice Engineer needs to become a thing.  Why is it not a thing?

And speaking of legendaries, some assumed balance changes from the next patch is that Alexstraza will stop stripping armor and Nat Pagle will start working correctly, which might be enough to make Nat Pagle a thing.  I doubt the Alexstraza change will make much difference. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 10, 2013, 05:17:34 pm
The patch notes don't say anything about nat pagle getting fixed :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 10, 2013, 05:55:37 pm
The patch is very disappointing in terms of bug fixes. I don't think they fixed anything other than Alextrasza. Minions still shift around. Panda'd cards still hover over the board. And they even added a new bug where things that give +1 health (Cleric, Blood Imp, Champ) heal 1 life in addition to the 1 they add to max.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on December 10, 2013, 06:04:05 pm
I played a little bit. I liked it, but since I mostly just like drafting I unfortunately just want to play expensive mode/Arena. That's what I think the game should be all the time. The other collecting/building bits are fun, but only drafting seems to really scratch my card gaming itch.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 10, 2013, 09:57:42 pm
Has anyone been having bug issues since the patch?  I just downloaded it, played one game, and it was completely buggy.  Multiple cards in my hand were unselectable, my opponents creatures were stacking in odd ways, images of cards were left on the screen, etc. 

http://imgur.com/r0QVR0S,nSt3gvk#1 is one screenshot I got from the game.  Really would've liked to be able to cast Tirion that game.. making a 1/1 as your only action turn 8 with Tirion in hand seemed less than ideal :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 11, 2013, 01:45:12 am
Some new bugs are getting reported on the forums.  It would seem they created more bugs than they fixed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 11, 2013, 04:59:41 am
UTH and Mind Control were that good in the way they affected deck building. I think more than aggro decks, these decks made it really hard to play slow control decks. Because if you were too slow, there would at some point be a chance to get killed by UTH, or when you finally got out your Rag/Ysera, they would get MC'd. They just generally made you not want to have big minions in your deck, because the risk/reward wasn't in the right place. But with these nerfs, I think it's easier to build a deck based on swatting away aggression for the first few turns and then playing big guys bigger than 6-drops. Mind Control only seemed powerful in Arena because it's harder to build a strong deck without big guys in Arena.

The problem, of course, is that with the OTK Hunter out of the picture, there's one less thing that beats freeze mage, which means more people are going to be playing it...

You are right here, MC forced played Yeti and Drarves as your beaters even in control, as you'd have to be 100% sure that he used both power world deaths AND MCs before putting down a Rag or similar. Which was very annoying. Still how does this changes things exactly? They can still steal Ysera/Rag, but Priests are less likely to run 2xMCs, cuz they suck against anything other than control?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on December 11, 2013, 11:29:50 am
So my third loss in Arena...

Opponent Priest plays Lightspawn.  Then two (!) Shields.  That minion is crazy; all he had to do was keep it healed and I never stood a chance!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 11, 2013, 12:36:23 pm
I was playing Arena, going 0-0, when this happened:
(http://i39.tinypic.com/vct3rp.png)

Lolz.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 11, 2013, 02:12:58 pm
This might be a silly question, but how do I get new quests?  I click on the quest (!) icon on the main page, and there's nothing there.  It just says, "You have no quests, come back tomorrow."  Got that both yesterday and today.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on December 11, 2013, 04:30:49 pm
This might be a silly question, but how do I get new quests?  I click on the quest (!) icon on the main page, and there's nothing there.  It just says, "You have no quests, come back tomorrow."  Got that both yesterday and today.

I thought they just refreshed over time, 1 assigned a day. Were you playing yesterday after midnight? That might be why you didn't seem to get a new one after you finished your quests.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on December 12, 2013, 11:05:21 am
Yes, sometimes you topdeck it, but most of the times you don't.

OK, I've now seen this term in several places.  Top-deck obviously can't mean the same thing in CCGs that it does in Dominion, right?  I can't think of CCG cards that put cards from your hand onto your deck.

What does top-deck mean in a CCG context?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 12, 2013, 11:10:54 am
Topdecking means drawing just what you need from the top of the library. It is often used as a derogatory term.
Topdeck mode is when you have no hand and play just the cards that you draw that turn.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 12, 2013, 11:38:17 am
This might be a silly question, but how do I get new quests?  I click on the quest (!) icon on the main page, and there's nothing there.  It just says, "You have no quests, come back tomorrow."  Got that both yesterday and today.

They show up every 24 hours, but not necessarily at midnight. It's around 5pm PST for me. I'm not sure if it's the same for everyone or has something to do with when you first installed or launched the game or something.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 12, 2013, 12:30:31 pm
~3AM-3:30AM CET for me.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 12, 2013, 03:35:17 pm
Yes, sometimes you topdeck it, but most of the times you don't.

OK, I've now seen this term in several places.  Top-deck obviously can't mean the same thing in CCGs that it does in Dominion, right?  I can't think of CCG cards that put cards from your hand onto your deck.

What does top-deck mean in a CCG context?

Grujah clarified.  Topdecking is a huge source of illusory superiority issues with players (didn't we have a fancy term for that around here? I can't remember it), because lots of control decks are designed to get stuck in topdeck mode and then have great topdecks, while others are supposed to rarely get caught in that state and have very few helpful topdecks.

There actually are a LOT of CCG cards that put cards from your hand onto your deck.  Donald X actually referred to a CCG card in his notes when he was writing ideas for cards like courtyard, he called it ebbing, after Time Ebb.  http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time+ebb

That one doesn't go from your hand, but Brainstorm and JTMS do, and both of those have been incredibly popular in competitive play.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292751
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on December 12, 2013, 03:40:21 pm
That one doesn't go from your hand, but Brainstorm and JTMS do, and both of those have been incredibly popular in competitive play.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292751
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

OK, I'd heard of that last guy, who is apparently highly powerful... but does he not act like a regular Magic card?  What's up with the +2/+1/-12 thing?

(Obviously, I'm not even vaguely a competitive player.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 12, 2013, 03:56:54 pm
That one doesn't go from your hand, but Brainstorm and JTMS do, and both of those have been incredibly popular in competitive play.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292751
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

OK, I'd heard of that last guy, who is apparently highly powerful... but does he not act like a regular Magic card?  What's up with the +2/+1/-12 thing?

(Obviously, I'm not even vaguely a competitive player.)

It's a planes walker. They're a recent card type (well, recent being in the past 6? Years or so).  Basically, they come into play with the nber of counters in the bottom right, and you get to use one of their abilities each turn. The +2, -12 etc are the costs in counters of the ability. They can also be attacked or damaged by spells such as lightning bolt (1 damage = remove 1 counter). If they get to 0 counters, they die.

Very, very powerful cards. All but a very few have been constructed playable. Once they are in play, they're a "free spell" each turn they live, which is a tremendous advantage over time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on December 12, 2013, 04:16:41 pm
That one doesn't go from your hand, but Brainstorm and JTMS do, and both of those have been incredibly popular in competitive play.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=292751
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373316

OK, I'd heard of that last guy, who is apparently highly powerful... but does he not act like a regular Magic card?  What's up with the +2/+1/-12 thing?

(Obviously, I'm not even vaguely a competitive player.)

It's a planes walker. They're a recent card type (well, recent being in the past 6? Years or so).  Basically, they come into play with the nber of counters in the bottom right, and you get to use one of their abilities each turn. The +2, -12 etc are the costs in counters of the ability. They can also be attacked or damaged by spells such as lightning bolt (1 damage = remove 1 counter). If they get to 0 counters, they die.

Very, very powerful cards. All but a very few have been constructed playable. Once they are in play, they're a "free spell" each turn they live, which is a tremendous advantage over time.

So this guys gains charges by being an anti-Pearl Diver, or can be a slightly worse Courtyard each turn, and can completely destroy an opponent's deck after six turns by just removing it from the game???

Holy shit, no wonder people think this is too powerful.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 12, 2013, 04:25:25 pm
Oh, JTMS. Even when it is explained to you and you understand why he is so powerful, it fades in comparison of seeing him in action. He impacts the board so much, does everything a blue deck wants and does it good. He deals with creatures, he digs for solutions, he gives less solutions to opponent by screwing his draws, and +12 ability is the least relevant one.

Do note that draw 3 discard 2 on Brainstorm and JTMS is way more powerful that it initially seems (i.e. Ghost Ship yourself/Courtyard).  Basically what you do is you return 2 that you do not need (land or unrelated spell), and than you play a card that searches and shuffles your deck (usually a land that searches for other lands, like Misty Rainforest (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190413)) and brings new cards to the top. It allows you to dig very deep in your deck for a solution, esp in combination with similar cards.

Edit: Solutions = outs, answers, whatever.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 12, 2013, 04:42:47 pm
Squadron hawk for three, brainstorm, squadron hawk for two, etc.  nightmares

Jace is just an unreal card. Apparently his +2 was supposed to be target player mills 1, but they didn't want to put milling on him so at the last minute changed it to fate sealing and didn't really test it. Ridiculous. He'd be very good with any 3 of those abilities
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 13, 2013, 04:56:47 pm
HME made top 100 in ranked play in HS this week
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 13, 2013, 06:06:17 pm
Woohoo HME!  What deck(s) are you playing?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 13, 2013, 09:35:43 pm
He queues up in ranked with mage aggro. I don't think he switches to anything else. 

Mage aggro is pretty much the deck to beat right now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 14, 2013, 08:11:44 pm
Woohoo HME!  What deck(s) are you playing?

Thanks! I mostly play mage aggro. But also sometimes freeze mage or control priest. I find the priest the most fun. Also sometimes paladin or druid to counter freeze mage when I get frustrated by it. But invariably when I play one of those decks I don't face a freeze mage.

I do think aggro mage is the best deck out there right now. It matches up evenly with other aggro decks, but it's the only one that can also deal with freeze mage.

I still have some hope that there's a good way to make a paladin or druid that beats freeze mage and can also handle aggro. Pops plays a druid deck that seems to do pretty well.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 14, 2013, 08:34:15 pm
I got paired up against HME in ranked, so I'm at least in spitting distance of him despite the handicap of playing druid (I don't own any pyroblasts, and I don't want to craft them.  If I had even one pyroblast I probably would have caved by now.)

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 14, 2013, 08:37:31 pm
Tirion is so necessary to play Paladin seriously it's ridiculous.  I played two different control paladins, both of them facelessed their own Tirion.  When you think how Tirion is nearly the only friendly faceless target in decks like that and it's still a good choice for them to run faceless to me that's a sign it's a nutty legendary.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on December 15, 2013, 12:43:27 am
THing is, I've oppened 2 pyroblasts so I can play mage aggro easily, I have also oppened 1 Tyrion and all that I need for a real competetive Paladin is 2nd Swird that gives +!/+1 to your guys.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 15, 2013, 01:05:20 am
THing is, I've oppened 2 pyroblasts so I can play mage aggro easily, I have also oppened 1 Tyrion and all that I need for a real competetive Paladin is 2nd Swird that gives +!/+1 to your guys.

At my MMR I haven't seen Sword of Justice played in forever.  It's always control paladin.  I think even if you go aggro or midrange you can probably pass on Sword of Justice.  It's not good against Frost Nova+Doomsayer, amongst other weaknesses.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on December 18, 2013, 03:11:15 pm
I got my key around 3 or 4 weeks ago, you can add me as Titandrake#1456.

I'm trying to concentrate more on getting good at arena. I'm consistently hitting 4-3, in that I seem to always lose at 4-3. Seriously. One run, I go 4-0, get 2 DCs, then lose. Next run, I do the absolute worst draft ever, and still hit 4-3. Third run, I go 4-2, then DC. I've gotten 9 wins and 7wins+ a few times, so I know I can do it, just need to clean up my drafting.

I haven't been playing as much recently because I got the arena bug, so I've mostly been messing around in play mode with my budget Warlock aggro deck. I'm missing Demonfires, but I have most of the good neutrals and 2 Flame Imps, so it's still decent.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on December 20, 2013, 11:49:35 am
Got an invite yesterday. I have mainly been doing Arena. I think it's pretty fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 20, 2013, 05:28:32 pm
If anyone wants tips for arena they can bug me in game.  I have 500 gold right now and can't get rid of it because I keep profiting when I play arena.  So I like to think I'm decent at it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on December 23, 2013, 12:04:47 am
Everyone who opted in to the beta before a certain date was supposed to get their key about a week ago. I signed up for an update on Nov 26th and still haven't gotten it. There was no record of me having opted in on my account, which I know is wrong. I opened a ticket about it yesterday morning but haven't heard anything yet. It's frustrating because I'm really eager to play!!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on December 23, 2013, 08:20:39 am
It's probably the largest time sink I've experienced in a while.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 23, 2013, 08:47:09 am
Everyone who opted in to the beta before a certain date was supposed to get their key about a week ago. I signed up for an update on Nov 26th and still haven't gotten it. There was no record of me having opted in on my account, which I know is wrong. I opened a ticket about it yesterday morning but haven't heard anything yet. It's frustrating because I'm really eager to play!!

The blues have admitted that the closed beta opt in process has been a learning experience on there part, and lots of things were done wrong.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on December 23, 2013, 09:46:33 am
This game looks really really fun after watching nkirbit play it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on December 25, 2013, 01:50:50 am
So what classes do you all prefer to play for arena?  For me, it's Shaman, not even close.  All the removal's insane, and Fire Elemental is just bonkers.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 25, 2013, 07:09:38 pm
So what classes do you all prefer to play for arena?  For me, it's Shaman, not even close.  All the removal's insane, and Fire Elemental is just bonkers.

If you're trying to maximize earnings, Paladin, Mage, and Warrior are the top three classes, and there's a big gap before any of the classes inferior to the big 3. 
Fire elemental is nuts, but relying on Rare board clear is really crippling for shaman.  You quite often get no lightning storms, and that can easily leave you with an unwinnable game before Victory Elemental can come down.  When you get the lightning storms, shaman is pretty powerful, I got a twelve win run one out of the three times I tried shaman after they added 12 win runs and the Mind Control nerf. 

Paladin, Mage, and Warrior are probably close enough that whichever of the three you have a knack for would be a good place to start practicing.  I think Paladin has the best 12 win potential because Truesilver is more stackable than Fiery War Axe.  And I would say Mage is probably the hardest one to get stuck with a really unwinnable draft: as Warrior sometimes you get offered very few weapons and you can't generate card/board advantage, so you get empty hand syndrome.  Mage always has card/board advantage available, even in a 30 Wisp deck. 

I would seriousface recommend against allocating lots of arena practice to a class that's not in the Big 3.  Doing better with the other classes is probably a symptom of higher variance making 7 win runs easier with a beginner skillset, or just sample size or an overall general approach that works for that class.  Before the mind control nerf there would be swarms of Priests in the 1-3 win range that only knew how to win if they were able to draft mind controls, and they would never make it to the 7-9 win range, which is mostly populated with big 3 classes.  I suspect they stunted their own growth that way.

The funnest way to play arena might be in the other six, but building up a card collection can be so critical for enjoying Play Mode.  Save the bottom six for after you've mastered the top 3 so well that you have 1000 gold and most cards unlocked.


I have most of the cards, but there are still some I want.. kinda.  I have most of what I need.  When I'm in the mood to get some cards, I play the big 3, preferring Pally the most out of the big 3, that's my favorite.  When I have so much gold I want to lose some I like to play Warlock.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on December 26, 2013, 09:52:22 am
So what classes do you all prefer to play for arena?  For me, it's Shaman, not even close.  All the removal's insane, and Fire Elemental is just bonkers.

Out of all the classes I enjoy Rogue the most. I'm mostly picking Paladin, Druid or Mage, since those are the ones I tend to do best with, and I want the gold to be able to play more without paying. I have yet to make it to 12 wins with any class, and I've yet to pick Hunter. My record is 9 wins with a stupid Warlock deck with no cards costing more than 4. When I left home I paused at 3-0 with a similar deck.

I haven't had much sucess with Warrior yet. I think I've picked him one time, but drafted really poorly and ended up with a lucky 4-3.

I'm happy if I make it to 6 wins. But 7+ is what I'm really gunning for. And one day I hope I'll get to the 12 wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 26, 2013, 01:05:46 pm
Warrior is probably the most difficult of the big three to play right, overall.  The Warrior hero power does not impact board control or card count, unlike every power besides Hunter.  That makes a responsible curve much more important.  It's much more important to make sure you have turn 2 plays and turn 3 plays because hero power can't fill in if you have a bad hand.  Sometimes mage snatches up some fun Fireballs and Water Elementals and ends up with a wonky curve, but they can fire blast a Raptor on turn 2 and turn 3 and get good value that way.  Warrior can't do that.

Warrior also will be weaker in topdeck mode, because hero powers get activated every turn then, and the Warrior won't be impacting board that way, other classes will.  So to stay out of topdeck mode, you have to make sure to get high cost cards too (or sources of draw)

It's still a good class because Flame Axe is the best card in Hearthstone, and common.  Arcanite Reaper is a very solid card that always two for one's.  gotta go
;
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on December 26, 2013, 01:48:33 pm
I always try to get good 2/3 drops. It's my second highest priority. Weapons are higher. Most of the times I lose, it's because I forget to not play into AoE, running into an early weapon or not having enough late game stuff. I'm trying to get better at AoE dodging and late game drafting since it's the things that I think are currently holding me back the most.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 26, 2013, 06:39:48 pm
It can be equally important to occasionally not play around AoE, just because you can't afford to.  Sometimes you have to play to your outs, and say, "If he has another Flamestrike, the game is over whether or not I dump these two Amanis and Defender of Argus, so I might as well do it."  You can also figure out patterns that give away that your opponent has a board clear in hand, or that he doesn't.  Poking things down to 4 health is a dead giveaway, but there's more subtle signs that someone wants you to dump your hand so they can wipe, like not attacking with Jungle Panther.

Weapons are a great way to spend mana to enhance your board position without overextending into board clear. 


Getting good 2-3 drops probably shouldn't be that high on your priority list.  It's important to have 2-3 drops, it's not really important that they be good.  The "standard deviation", if that's the right term, is much higher for the higher mana costs than the lower ones.  Six mana has literally only one good neutral basic, Ogre.  The others range from really bad to painful.  If you pass up a chance to take an Ogre, you're going to be stuck with Windfury Harpy instead and that's a huge quality drop. (Actually it's such a quality drop that you should probably skip the Harpy).  If you pass up a chance to take Amani Beserker, you might have to take River Crocolisk instead, and that's really not that bad.  Sometimes you just snatch up your 2-3 drops in the least 8 picks because you were getting your powerful class cards earlier, and that's fine. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on December 27, 2013, 09:57:16 am
The reason behind my drafting lies in me not wanting to get bad draws early, because that's when I think the advantage/disadvantage is at it's largest. If your opponent coins out a 3/2 and you've got nothing for your own turn 2, you'll be fighting an uphill battle. Big time. Later on, you can 2 for 1 and still have a chance. What you can't do is 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 multiple times.

Don't get me wrong, I'll most likely pick a Boulderfist Ogre or a Stormwind Champion over most 2-3's, but getting a reasonable amount of 2-3's is my main goal after weapons. Actually after weapons or other easy 1 for 2+'s.

Basically I prefer a consistantly strong early game over a long term game plan. I'm guessing it might not be the best way to do arena, since I have yet to get past 9 wins, but I usually land around 6 or 7.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 27, 2013, 06:11:49 pm
Oh yes, it's good to get lots of 2-3 drops.  Just don't worry too much which ones they are.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 28, 2013, 03:31:30 pm
I find 3-drops to be pretty inconsequential if they're not Harvest Golem or Scarlet Crusader or Cleric (or one of the Warrior-only ones). For the most part, a Raptor trades 1-for-1 with most 3s, so if you get late in your draft and have no 3s, it's pretty easy to fill it in, since a lot of 2s are just as good as 3s in a most situations.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ftl on December 28, 2013, 08:23:45 pm
Heh, with all this hearthstone buzz, and since I don't really even play dominion anymore, I finally signed up for the beta. Hope I get an invite soon.

I'm not planning to be any good at it, I don't really want to get deep into the strategy like I did with dominion, I hope their matchmaking is good enough to match me up against other people who don't know what they're doing and don't have any fancy cards or whatever.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on December 29, 2013, 07:43:01 pm
Three drops are slightly more important in a deck that's running low on two drops, though.  Coin lets you cheat and skip 2 drops if you're player 2, and you only have to "burn" one mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on December 30, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
^Right. But the point is that 2-drops can play the role of 3 drops much more so than any other value n can play n+1, so you really don't need to press for 3s, particularly early in the draft.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 13, 2014, 05:47:40 pm
I still play this game a bunch, what about you other guys?

I am really trying pretty hard to get a full collection.  It takes some grinding but it's achievable even as a f2p.  I hate playing a game where I can't use any option I want, whenever I want, so I'm working on changing that
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on January 13, 2014, 06:30:45 pm
I found myself with suddenly less time, and HS just kinda fell to the wayside, especially since I have another CCG currently in Alpha that I kickstarted.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 13, 2014, 08:52:03 pm
Aww, if you're going to be building something yourself.. not even LCG? :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on January 13, 2014, 08:58:44 pm
Aww, if you're going to be building something yourself.. not even LCG? :(

No, no, I just backed it on KS.  Not my creation.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on January 14, 2014, 10:04:31 am
I'm playing. Mostly arena, but every now and then I try my luck with a Rogue constructed deck. I have tried some Priest controlly stuff and a Freeze Mage, but I think Rogue is the most fun to play.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 16, 2014, 01:08:29 pm
Got my key last night!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on January 16, 2014, 02:24:24 pm
Got my key last night!

Same here! Been extremely busy though so I don't know when I'll have a chance to play. Also, they told me that I may have "missed the original email." No. There was no email. They also told me that I was never signed up for the beta. Wrong. Clearly, since they've flagged my account for access now. Anyway, I would have loved to play a bunch when I actually had time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 16, 2014, 02:45:59 pm
I'm still doing a couple of arenas a day.. not playing too much constructed.

For some reason, I'm very adverse to crafting legendaries because I know how bad it will feel if I later opened that legendary.. even though I have about 5k dust to work with at this point, so I'm not far off from getting whatever deck I want.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ftl on January 16, 2014, 03:31:35 pm
I'm in now too! Won my first ranked game.Still haven't played anything except mage.

Also got that bs about "missing the email" which never happened.

I'll probably buy one pack so I get in on the special golden legendary thing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 16, 2014, 03:38:07 pm
I'm in now too! Won my first ranked game.Still haven't played anything except mage.

Also got that bs about "missing the email" which never happened.

I'll probably buy one pack so I get in on the special golden legendary thing.

Don't buy a pack!  Buy an arena run!

You'll probably run out of gold at some point early doing arena because it takes a little bit of time to figure out exactly what's going on... buy an arena at this point!  Gets you the legend as well.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 16, 2014, 04:01:10 pm
Yeah, this is definitely a better way to get the gold legendary card for spending money. (you get a pack per arena run anyways)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 16, 2014, 05:28:14 pm
Apparently I have access now. I would never have known if it weren't for this thread...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 16, 2014, 10:24:28 pm
Apparently I have access now. I would never have known if it weren't for this thread...
I'm sorry for our responsibility in your potential loss of many hours
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on January 17, 2014, 01:27:40 am
I'm still doing a couple of arenas a day.. not playing too much constructed.

For some reason, I'm very adverse to crafting legendaries because I know how bad it will feel if I later opened that legendary.. even though I have about 5k dust to work with at this point, so I'm not far off from getting whatever deck I want.

I was the same way. Banked up over 5k dust before finally deciding to start getting legendaries. But then the dust starts going fast... Much faster than you could pop legendaries from packs
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 17, 2014, 01:06:38 pm
Played a lot of arena last night. I'm not very good at this yet.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 17, 2014, 02:41:13 pm
I used to be really good at arena, but now I suck.  The arena playerbase is evolving over time, probably.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 17, 2014, 03:38:21 pm
I used to be really good at arena, but now I suck.  The arena playerbase is evolving over time, probably.

Same to me.  I used to routinely get 10+ wins.. now I'm happy with 7.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 17, 2014, 03:39:21 pm
I did go 12-0 for the first time the other day, though!  Paladin's quite good when you get truesilvers and consecrates!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 17, 2014, 08:35:19 pm
Truesilver stacking is the reason i think Paladin is the best class for 12 win runs.  When I was on game 11 of my twelve win Warlock run, I fought this Pally that broke all sorts of deckbuilding fundamentals, but he had 3 Truesilvers amongst the cards I saw, so that's how he got there.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 18, 2014, 10:33:20 am
Is this still in closed beta?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 18, 2014, 01:33:07 pm
Yeah
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 18, 2014, 05:16:23 pm
Darn, that would be why I couldn't find a download link
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 18, 2014, 05:39:27 pm
Darn, that would be why I couldn't find a download link

If you sign up now, hopefully it won't take too long. It took me maybe two weeks from signing up for the beta to getting my key.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 18, 2014, 06:29:18 pm
Yeah, I cant even find the sign up link!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 18, 2014, 06:48:41 pm
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/

Create an account in the upper right corner.

Once you create it, log in and somewhere should be an option for "Beta opt-in" or somethinig like that.  Select Hearthstone and you're good to go!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 19, 2014, 07:31:19 am
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/

Create an account in the upper right corner.

Once you create it, log in and somewhere should be an option for "Beta opt-in" or somethinig like that.  Select Hearthstone and you're good to go!


Yeah, im logged into battle net, that part wasn't the problem.

Cannot find the opt in part..

Not in the general links, FAQ or even on the forums.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Gveoniz on January 19, 2014, 08:07:22 am
Try checking you account page?
https://battle.net/account/management/ (https://battle.net/account/management/)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 19, 2014, 08:16:36 am
Try checking you account page?
https://battle.net/account/management/ (https://battle.net/account/management/)

Yep, and went to Beta Profile Settings
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 19, 2014, 10:47:27 am
Try checking you account page?
https://battle.net/account/management/ (https://battle.net/account/management/)

Yep, and went to Beta Profile Settings

Hm.  I just logged on, and you're right, it's not there.  Perhaps its because they're done giving away beta keys in preparation for the open beta to start.

I would imagine that it's not going to be too much longer.  They recently patched a few cards and said they were very close to being happy with the balance of the game, and to not expect many more changes before open.. so hopefully it should be open soon.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 19, 2014, 10:49:03 am
Ok cheers, as long as its not me being stupid!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 19, 2014, 04:03:18 pm
I just got access!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on January 19, 2014, 11:18:21 pm
I'm playing a lot of Arena. It's super fun for the tactics in the games. Because you get forced into card variety through the drafting mechanism, there's lots of crazy stuff that can happen in the games. The Arena pseudo-draft itself is strategically uninteresting, because it's mostly a simple process of choosing the best arena card of the three you're presented, until you get to the last few cards, and even then you often don't have a real choice. It's annoying how much your deck quality is determined by random chance, but the tactics are fun enough to make up for that, and it's satisfying when you can get good value out of a weak card.

I don't understand how to have fun with constructed at all.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 20, 2014, 03:08:29 am
I'm playing a lot of Arena. It's super fun for the tactics in the games. Because you get forced into card variety through the drafting mechanism, there's lots of crazy stuff that can happen in the games. The Arena pseudo-draft itself is strategically uninteresting, because it's mostly a simple process of choosing the best arena card of the three you're presented, until you get to the last few cards, and even then you often don't have a real choice. It's annoying how much your deck quality is determined by random chance, but the tactics are fun enough to make up for that, and it's satisfying when you can get good value out of a weak card.

I don't understand how to have fun with constructed at all.

Step one, get all the cards.  I'm half serious, half candid.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 20, 2014, 02:18:44 pm
Btw, if anyone wants to add me and play games, I'm happy to play! (Although keep in mind I'm new and have very few cards, so please don't play super-awesome decks I have no chance of beating.) My account is Bkirbit.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on January 20, 2014, 02:34:01 pm
New Unleash the Hounds feels so stupid. I'm only rank 14 in constructed, but I literally tossed a deck together in ~3 minutes and it hasn't lost a game yet. Buzzard+UtH means you don't run out of steam, Timber Wolf+UtH gives lots of damage out of nowhere, and Kill Commands give reach. It doesn't even use any rares and it feels way too strong.

Also, for some reason, I can only play Paladin in arena. I feel like Mage, Shaman, and Warrior should be really good, but I'm nowhere near as consistent with them, often getting <= 4 wins. With Paladin, I usually get at least 5 wins. My guess is that Paladin has a lot of good 4 costs, which I'm starting to see as the key cost point when building an arena deck. You want 2 and 3 costs for early game, but 4 costs change the board so much more.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 20, 2014, 11:12:36 pm
New Unleash the Hounds feels so stupid. I'm only rank 14 in constructed, but I literally tossed a deck together in ~3 minutes and it hasn't lost a game yet. Buzzard+UtH means you don't run out of steam, Timber Wolf+UtH gives lots of damage out of nowhere, and Kill Commands give reach. It doesn't even use any rares and it feels way too strong.

Also, for some reason, I can only play Paladin in arena. I feel like Mage, Shaman, and Warrior should be really good, but I'm nowhere near as consistent with them, often getting <= 4 wins. With Paladin, I usually get at least 5 wins. My guess is that Paladin has a lot of good 4 costs, which I'm starting to see as the key cost point when building an arena deck. You want 2 and 3 costs for early game, but 4 costs change the board so much more.
It looks rather stupid.  It compares to arcane explosion, except Timber Wolf becomes Spellpower +1 and Buzzard becomes Spellpower + 2.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 20, 2014, 11:14:09 pm
Btw, if anyone wants to add me and play games, I'm happy to play! (Although keep in mind I'm new and have very few cards, so please don't play super-awesome decks I have no chance of beating.) My account is Bkirbit.
Your account name is useless without the # suffix
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 21, 2014, 06:34:14 pm
Open Beta has begun!

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 21, 2014, 07:03:43 pm
Open Beta has begun!

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/

Cool, so I was part of an exclusive closed beta for 2 days.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 21, 2014, 10:18:09 pm
Open Beta has begun!

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/

Cool, so I was part of an exclusive closed beta for 2 days.

I was hoping for a little more time too so that when a rush the rush of new players appears I would be able to beat them all in arena.
Oh well, I have a few days advantage at least.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 21, 2014, 11:54:45 pm
Open Beta has begun!

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/

Cool, so I was part of an exclusive closed beta for 2 days.

I was hoping for a little more time too so that when a rush the rush of new players appears I would be able to beat them all in arena.
Oh well, I have a few days advantage at least.
If you whisper me in game you can get 120 days advantage.  Shhhh..
Edit: somewhat in the form of advice, not account sharing or something
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: sitnaltax on January 22, 2014, 08:43:32 am
I've been playing Hearthstone for a couple of months, and Arena Mode is amazing: I feel the same way playing it as I did on Isotropic. The games are quick, tense, and dynamic; there's a very long but relatively gentle learning curve; there's a lot of luck but managing it is an important skill you need to develop. I can't promise that everyone will feel the same way, but now that the beta's open I would highly recommend anyone try it out.

I'm less enthusiastic about Constructed, but that's mostly because I don't have the energy to think about deckbuilding. Yeah, the people who have sunk hundreds of dollars and hours into the game will have the best decks, but you're not going to be matched against those players, any more than Iso would have automatched a Dominion novice with Stef. The player base is big enough, and the matchmaking good enough, that you're going to end up winning about half your games no unless you're a raw novice or near the very top.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 22, 2014, 12:22:54 pm
You can get cards without money though right?
It will just take a lot longer?

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 22, 2014, 12:38:18 pm
You can get cards without money though right?
It will just take a lot longer?

Correct, you can buy cards with in game gold you earn.

It's 100 gold a pack, or 150 gold for an arena run which guarantees a pack (and possibly other rewards which usually include gold). You can earn gold in game by questing or winning matches online. Quests are 40-60 gold usually each, but there's apparently some for 100 that spawn occasionally too. Winning matches nets you 10 gold for every 3 wins, which is pretty piddling, but it adds up over time.

You can also craft cards you're having trouble finding with cards you have though it's not a great rate of return. (something like 4 cards of equal rarity for 1 usually) Though there's a couple workarounds. I just discovered you can get cards 1-for-1 if they've just been changed. So it's worth noting which cards have been tweaked when you log in so you can get rid of ones you dislike for ones you like of equal rarity.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 22, 2014, 01:50:17 pm
Ta, downloading now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 23, 2014, 09:36:03 am
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on January 23, 2014, 09:42:42 am
I also just discovered the hand limit of 10, and burned about 8 cards doing it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 23, 2014, 10:04:59 am
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.

It happens a lot at lower MMRs with bad players fighting eachother.  At higher levels of play it's not very common because those decks are inconsistent and the combo can be interrupted by removal
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on January 23, 2014, 11:29:18 am
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.

It happens a lot at lower MMRs with bad players fighting eachother.  At higher levels of play it's not very common because those decks are inconsistent and the combo can be interrupted by removal

What is MMR?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 23, 2014, 12:28:18 pm
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.

It happens a lot at lower MMRs with bad players fighting eachother.  At higher levels of play it's not very common because those decks are inconsistent and the combo can be interrupted by removal

What is MMR?

Blizzard's secret formula for determining how good you are. High MMRs get matched together, low MMRs get matched together, but no one knows what their MMR is. (well presumably Blizzard staff members know their own, but the general public doesn't know). In dominion lingo, it's basically your level, but in hearthstone your level is secret.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 23, 2014, 12:51:06 pm
Btw, if anyone wants to add me and play games, I'm happy to play! (Although keep in mind I'm new and have very few cards, so please don't play super-awesome decks I have no chance of beating.) My account is Bkirbit.
Your account name is useless without the # suffix

Bkirbit #1439!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 23, 2014, 01:33:01 pm
Grrrr, open beta is US only.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on January 23, 2014, 01:50:00 pm
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.

Then you get silenced/poly/hex/assassinate lol
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Destierro on January 23, 2014, 04:13:21 pm
Grrrr, open beta is US only.
Then make a US account? This is the internet, be resourceful!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 23, 2014, 04:17:35 pm
Not sure if this helps, but I think it's North America only because I'm in Canada and didn't have to do anything special to get the account.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 23, 2014, 04:20:52 pm
Not sure if this helps, but I think it's North America only because I'm in Canada and didn't have to do anything special to get the account.

Your Canadian, thats special enough my young friend
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 23, 2014, 05:10:46 pm
Tuvalu seems like it would be the specialest... most special.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on January 23, 2014, 06:11:33 pm
EU is open today anyhow
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 23, 2014, 06:32:04 pm
EU is open today anyhow


Yay!  You are now named Good News Bear!

(next time though, let me know before im just about to go to bed will ya!)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 23, 2014, 08:24:17 pm
It seems you can play arena for free every other day even if you're bad at it like me :P
I played a fun game today, my basic/common mage against a warlock with several epics and legendaries.

I didn't have the best opening hand, and I couldn't play a minion turn 3. Meanwhile, he was alarm-o-bot-ing into a molten giant.
I polymorphed, but then I still had no minions. Next turn he alarm-o-bots Ysera. I play my yeti or something. Somehow I stay relative alive and on turn 7 or 8 I flamestrike all of his minions and am in a winning position...but then he plays something that fills his board with 1/1s. I survive that and deal with a 7/6 minion, and I once again have control of the board.

Unfortunately, he still has another molten giant and a ragnaros, so I go down after a few more turns, but it was really exciting to try to hold on to the game when the cards were stacked against me. It was actually quite close until he summoned ragnaros. He was about to run out of cards so I think I would have one ewon won.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on January 23, 2014, 10:16:03 pm
Personally, I rely on getting 60 gold quests for infinite arena. Hopefully, that's going to change as I get better, constructed isn't as fun.

As someone who has a reasonable amount of cards, you can make pretty good aggro decks with only commons and the occasional rare. The idea is that you kill them before they drop Ragnaros, or Sylvanas, or Tirion (who is completely bullshit btw, arghhh that card is annoying.)

Unfortunately, making a budget control deck is pretty hard without legendaries. Maybe you still do okay against aggro, but you lose to other control decks because they have better cards than you every step of the way.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 23, 2014, 11:07:19 pm
Do you get more 60 gold quests after playing longer or something? I've gotten all 40 gold quests for my first week.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on January 24, 2014, 12:08:28 am
I'm pretty sure it's all luck, although I got a 100 gold quest for the first time recently.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 24, 2014, 12:15:06 am
Do you get more 60 gold quests after playing longer or something? I've gotten all 40 gold quests for my first week.

Before this patch there was a way to decline quests for other quests.  Temporarily it is bugged so they removed it.  When it comes back using this lets you mainly do 60s
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 24, 2014, 06:58:21 am
I got to level 10 in a couple of hours with the mage last night. (Think I only lost one game on the way, people dont really have a clue do they?)

Can't do arena yet until I have played all the different classes, which is a bit annoying as most of them seem to be Hunters! (Grrr, WOW Hunters!)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on January 24, 2014, 12:48:35 pm
I got to level 10 in a couple of hours with the mage last night. (Think I only lost one game on the way, people dont really have a clue do they?)

Can't do arena yet until I have played all the different classes, which is a bit annoying as most of them seem to be Hunters! (Grrr, WOW Hunters!)

You can also unlock classes through practice mode, and choose the classes you play that way.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 24, 2014, 12:50:31 pm
I got to level 10 in a couple of hours with the mage last night. (Think I only lost one game on the way, people dont really have a clue do they?)

Can't do arena yet until I have played all the different classes, which is a bit annoying as most of them seem to be Hunters! (Grrr, WOW Hunters!)

You can also unlock classes through practice mode, and choose the classes you play that way.

There's some bonus gold you can get for beating all of the practice decks too (100 for the basic ones and 100 more for the expert ones) if that interests you.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 24, 2014, 01:44:18 pm
I just played the weirdest arena game ever, where my opponent lost from the -7 health fatigue on turn 7.

He had 3 Northshire Clerics in play. At first, I was sure I was going to lose as he was drawing 3 cards a turn at least. However, I was playing Shaman, and with my health regeneration totem, I was forcing him to draw 9 cards a turn at the end of each of my turns by just throwing my minions into his Clerics and making sure nothing died. He wasn't able to either kill his clerics or my totem, and was helpless as all his cards got drawn away.

I would have never expected something like that to happen in an arena game, and was shocked that it happened so quickly.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on January 24, 2014, 01:52:26 pm
I just played the weirdest arena game ever, where my opponent lost from the -7 health fatigue on turn 7.

He had 3 Northshire Clerics in play. At first, I was sure I was going to lose as he was drawing 3 cards a turn at least. However, I was playing Shaman, and with my health regeneration totem, I was forcing him to draw 9 cards a turn at the end of each of my turns by just throwing my minions into his Clerics and making sure nothing died. He wasn't able to either kill his clerics or my totem, and was helpless as all his cards got drawn away.

I would have never expected something like that to happen in an arena game, and was shocked that it happened so quickly.

Heh, that's brilliant.  Even worse, most of the cards would have gotten trashed due to hand limits.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on January 24, 2014, 02:01:07 pm
I guess his holy nova (if he had one) was forced out somehow because that would trash this strat pretty fast. Not that you get those good team wipe cards in arena drafts all the time. I'm playing a mage arena draft right now where I saw no flamestrikes, blizzards or cones of cold during the draft. I'm not expecting to go super far, but I'm 1-for-1 currently.

Still a really cool turn of events and definitely worth talking about.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 24, 2014, 02:05:07 pm
Yeah, he was trashing cards very very quickly (he had 8 when I started doing this), and I guess never had a holy nova in hand. His deck honestly wasn't that great, but it was still cool to see it happen.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 24, 2014, 02:25:00 pm
I got to level 10 in a couple of hours with the mage last night. (Think I only lost one game on the way, people dont really have a clue do they?)

Can't do arena yet until I have played all the different classes, which is a bit annoying as most of them seem to be Hunters! (Grrr, WOW Hunters!)

You can also unlock classes through practice mode, and choose the classes you play that way.
You can also unlock classes and basic cards by challenging a player on your friends list.  This means you can get to level 10 on all classes by fighting an opponent who intentionally loses out of benevolence.  This works for unlocking basic cards but can't be exploited for anything else of value in the game.  (Concessions count, too)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Ozle on January 24, 2014, 05:41:10 pm
Cheers, ill play the practice decks tomorrow then, seems a bit of a cheap way though (Although not as much as friend quitting! )
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 24, 2014, 06:26:55 pm
I didn't know I would get gold for beating all of the expert practice heros.
So far, they are easier than the basic ones. The AI still needs some work, like having your scavenging hyena attack after you kill your 1/1 hound so that you can actually kill my minion. Or, you know, not playing unleash the hounds when I have 1 minion on the board.

I guess this game is even harder to make an AI for than dominion though since there so many cards, but they could limit the bots to playing just a few decks to make it more of a challenge.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 24, 2014, 06:53:59 pm
I didn't know I would get gold for beating all of the expert practice heros.
So far, they are easier than the basic ones. The AI still needs some work, like having your scavenging hyena attack after you kill your 1/1 hound so that you can actually kill my minion. Or, you know, not playing unleash the hounds when I have 1 minion on the board.

I guess this game is even harder to make an AI for than dominion though since there so many cards, but they could limit the bots to playing just a few decks to make it more of a challenge.

There's an infinite supply of people in the queue to practice against, bots aren't really necessary.  There's a couple there as a formality for your very first one or two games.

Much later they plan to do an Adventure mode which I expect will be more challenging.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on January 24, 2014, 06:58:36 pm
AI for this should be easier than Dominion. In Dominion, the hardest part of doing AI is picking a reasonable strategy for the kingdom. In Hearthstone, little strategy is required since you already have a deck built. Concepts like card advantage are quantifiable enough that writing a usable evaluation function shouldn't be too bad. It's simpler than writing a Magic AI because your turn's progress is far more predictable, making calculating tactics more feasible.

Seems like a fun game AI project actually.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on January 24, 2014, 08:24:24 pm
I didn't know I would get gold for beating all of the expert practice heros.
So far, they are easier than the basic ones. The AI still needs some work, like having your scavenging hyena attack after you kill your 1/1 hound so that you can actually kill my minion. Or, you know, not playing unleash the hounds when I have 1 minion on the board.

I guess this game is even harder to make an AI for than dominion though since there so many cards, but they could limit the bots to playing just a few decks to make it more of a challenge.

There's an infinite supply of people in the queue to practice against, bots aren't really necessary.  There's a couple there as a formality for your very first one or two games.

Much later they plan to do an Adventure mode which I expect will be more challenging.

Yeah, but if you buy zaps you can swap out cards in your opponent's deck with wisps.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on January 24, 2014, 10:06:17 pm
So for some reason when I go to download Hearthstone, it just goes to a page on Battle.net saying "An error has occured".

EDIT: This also happens anywhere I try to do things with my battle.net account apparently.

EDIT the second: Logged in with a different account and it works. Apparently just my main account is fail.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 24, 2014, 11:03:19 pm
AI for this should be easier than Dominion. In Dominion, the hardest part of doing AI is picking a reasonable strategy for the kingdom. In Hearthstone, little strategy is required since you already have a deck built. Concepts like card advantage are quantifiable enough that writing a usable evaluation function shouldn't be too bad. It's simpler than writing a Magic AI because your turn's progress is far more predictable, making calculating tactics more feasible.

Seems like a fun game AI project actually.


Magic is not that hard either to be honest.  Duels of the Planeswalkers sure sells just fine.  But the turn structure helps for Hearthstone for sure.

If anyone wants to help me build a bot that can go infinite at arena, farm all the cards, and then sell the account for cash, we can go 50/50 on it
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on January 25, 2014, 01:46:20 am
If an enemy mage has Mirror Entity active, and has 7 minions out, then playing a minion won't trigger the secret. I just played an Argent Protector, didn't proc the secret so I guessed a different one, killed a minion, then dropped an Abomination that got copied. Maaaan. In my defense, Mages don't usually have 7 creatures out.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 25, 2014, 02:39:14 am
If an enemy mage has Mirror Entity active, and has 7 minions out, then playing a minion won't trigger the secret. I just played an Argent Protector, didn't proc the secret so I guessed a different one, killed a minion, then dropped an Abomination that got copied. Maaaan. In my defense, Mages don't usually have 7 creatures out.
That's one of the things they need to document/define better.  It'd be nice if each card had footnotes.  There's apparently an unwritten rule that if a secret wouldn't do anything, it just doesn't trigger.  Cept the time they violated that rule so that my Vaporize "killed" my 6/0 creature that was attacking myself, because of Misdirection+Explosive Trap.

Misdirection also won't trigger if there is no other legal target to attack.  A character cannot attack itself, that's another unwritten rule, one that's no more intuitive than characters being able to attack friendlies, but only due to card effects.

I'm still not sure how Freezing Trap/Explosive Trap ordering works.

Redemption is a pretty sweet piece of inconsistency because it will debuff minions that were 1/1 to begin with.  It will actually leave a visual debuff on the 1/1, even though using Crazed Alchemist on a 1/1 will cause no visual debuff/buff even on mouseover.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on January 25, 2014, 04:15:12 am
If an enemy mage has Mirror Entity active, and has 7 minions out, then playing a minion won't trigger the secret. I just played an Argent Protector, didn't proc the secret so I guessed a different one, killed a minion, then dropped an Abomination that got copied. Maaaan. In my defense, Mages don't usually have 7 creatures out.
That's one of the things they need to document/define better.  It'd be nice if each card had footnotes.  There's apparently an unwritten rule that if a secret wouldn't do anything, it just doesn't trigger.  Cept the time they violated that rule so that my Vaporize "killed" my 6/0 creature that was attacking myself, because of Misdirection+Explosive Trap.

Misdirection also won't trigger if there is no other legal target to attack.  A character cannot attack itself, that's another unwritten rule, one that's no more intuitive than characters being able to attack friendlies, but only due to card effects.

I'm still not sure how Freezing Trap/Explosive Trap ordering works.

Redemption is a pretty sweet piece of inconsistency because it will debuff minions that were 1/1 to begin with.  It will actually leave a visual debuff on the 1/1, even though using Crazed Alchemist on a 1/1 will cause no visual debuff/buff even on mouseover.

I believe secrets are triggered in the order that they are played, and no state based effects are triggered until all secrets are done. That's the only way it makes sense for a 6/0 to trigger Vaporize.

Freeze Trap + Exploding Trap should trigger both, dealing 2 damage to everything and bouncing the minion. Even if the minion has 2 or fewer health, it should be returned to your hand before the game checks for 0 health.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 26, 2014, 09:51:33 pm
eh.. you still won't placate me about repentance.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on January 27, 2014, 09:24:51 pm
Argh, it's immensely frustrating to lose because a rule doesn't work the way I think it will.

He had an ironbark protector (or whatever it is, the 8/8 druid taunter) out. He traded it down to a 8/2, then played a crazed alchemist, turning it into a 2/8. I then silenced it, thinking I'd be dealing with a 8/2 that I could easily kill, but nope, it's back to a 8/8! Why does silence work this way? The damage wasn't an "card text, enchantment, or ability", it's hit points that are gone, so why does it heal back up?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on January 28, 2014, 12:01:57 am
Argh, it's immensely frustrating to lose because a rule doesn't work the way I think it will.

He had an ironbark protector (or whatever it is, the 8/8 druid taunter) out. He traded it down to a 8/2, then played a crazed alchemist, turning it into a 2/8. I then silenced it, thinking I'd be dealing with a 8/2 that I could easily kill, but nope, it's back to a 8/8! Why does silence work this way? The damage wasn't an "card text, enchantment, or ability", it's hit points that are gone, so why does it heal back up?
I agree in general (that it's annoying that there isn't a rulebook to consult for edge cases), but in Hearthstone, unlike Magic, you want to be thinking about current health and not about damage taken. Health buffs increase current health, but health debuffs don't decrease current health (and so damage taken is reduced). When you silenced the tree, the max health stayed at 8, so the current health wasn't pushed down. This isn't completely precise, to be fair.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on January 28, 2014, 12:59:29 am
Crazed alchemist sets both current health and maximum health to the value of the minion's attack.  The text is ambiguous about that, but that's what it does.  The 2/8 Ironbark was an undamaged Ironbark, his current health and maximum health were the same.

The difference between health and max health is ambiguous and often uses the same words and confusing, and I hate it a little bit.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Dsell on January 31, 2014, 02:24:52 pm
I've been super busy lately but I'm sick today so I think I'm gonna finally see what this is all about.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on January 31, 2014, 11:28:21 pm
Just had a "dear my opponent, I am sorry" moment in Arena. I'm playing Mage vs his Warlock.

Me: Mana Wyrm
Him: Blood Imp, Coin, Flame Imp
Me: top-decked Frostbolt to kill Flame Imp
Him: Life Tap
Me: Raging Worgen
Him: Life Tap
Me: Defender of Argus
Him: Ancient Mage
Me: Fireblast Worgen, win

About as fast as I've seen it in arena. Very lucky draws.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on February 01, 2014, 12:19:13 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOD7Ni_3NIc

No idea if this has been patched, but Husky is always so much fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on February 01, 2014, 05:04:42 am
Anyone else struggling to get a win now that all the good players are back in the 20s?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on February 01, 2014, 04:51:46 pm
Anyone else struggling to get a win now that all the good players are back in the 20s?

I am holding steady around 14 with only one legendary in my deck. Just can't beat people who have 3+ in theirs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on February 01, 2014, 05:17:35 pm
Anyone else struggling to get a win now that all the good players are back in the 20s?

I am holding steady around 14 with only one legendary in my deck. Just can't beat people who have 3+ in theirs.

I haven't played much ranked constructed and I've got to say I find it weird playing rank 25 people who have decks made of legendaries, epics and rares. Arena seems so much fairer.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 01, 2014, 08:17:26 pm
Anyone else struggling to get a win now that all the good players are back in the 20s?

I am holding steady around 14 with only one legendary in my deck. Just can't beat people who have 3+ in theirs.

I haven't played much ranked constructed and I've got to say I find it weird playing rank 25 people who have decks made of legendaries, epics and rares. Arena seems so much fairer.
The season just started and Blizzard has no data on first time ranked players.  Cut them a break.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on February 03, 2014, 12:07:51 am
Anyone else struggling to get a win now that all the good players are back in the 20s?

I am holding steady around 14 with only one legendary in my deck. Just can't beat people who have 3+ in theirs.

Totally didn't realize the ladder had reset when I posted this, oops...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on February 03, 2014, 12:52:43 am
After playing some more, I've come to like some things that bothered me at first.

Most of the RNG cards are fine. There are enough interesting tactics involved in setting up good situations to play them that some of them are pretty fun, such as Mad Bomber, Knife Juggler, and MC Tech. Usually it's clear whether you got lucky or unlucky, so you just need to adopt a mindset where you're trying to make good plays each turn and not worry too much about the game result.

Class-specific cards are critical for arena variety. For one class, most arena runs plays pretty similarly overall. Having nine classes at least means there are nine different ways to experience arena. It's also nice that you have some idea about what your opponent might play so that you can plan more easily.

My wishes for how the game will develop:

I'd like to see some of the stronger cards become more interesting. Cards with interesting battlecries are fun, like Shattered Sun Cleric and Dark Iron Dwarf. But strong vanilla cards like Chillwind Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre are pretty boring.

I'd also like to see a play mode somewhere in between Constructed and Arena. I'd want it to have more flexibility in deck-building than Arena has, while retaining the randomness in card availability and being non-pay-to-win. For example, it'd be interesting to have a mode where you're given a dust limit and a random pool of cards and need to make a deck out of that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 03, 2014, 02:06:59 am
Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre are dominant forces in Arena, but rarely, if ever, appear in highly ranked play mode decks.  So their boringness is not a big issue. 

Dark Iron Dwarf and Shattered Sun Cleric were amongst the strongest cards in the game before they were nerfed.  It was really difficult to build an aggro or midrange deck without SSC. 
Dark Iron Dwarf might have been ok if they left it alone, maybe.  But it was crowding out more interesting cards like Water Elemental and Windspeaker because it was a neutral 4 drop everyone always had access too so it was a bit of a variety concern.

If you like your creatures flavorful I'd suggest the shaman class.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on February 03, 2014, 02:32:26 am
Yeti and Boulderfist Ogre are dominant forces in Arena, but rarely, if ever, appear in highly ranked play mode decks.  So their boringness is not a big issue.
It's an issue for arena, which is what I had in mind in my post. Sorry for not specifying. Constructed doesn't seem like an interesting competitive format except for the most hardcore players, for a number of reasons.
Quote
Dark Iron Dwarf and Shattered Sun Cleric were amongst the strongest cards in the game before they were nerfed.  It was really difficult to build an aggro or midrange deck without SSC. 
Dark Iron Dwarf might have been ok if they left it alone, maybe.  But it was crowding out more interesting cards like Water Elemental and Windspeaker because it was a neutral 4 drop everyone always had access too so it was a bit of a variety concern.
I don't object to the nerfs at all. Dwarf is arguably more interesting after the nerf, because you're forced to extract value from the buff that turn.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on February 11, 2014, 01:11:30 am
So apparently if you Mind Control Tech a knife juggler, your mind control tech gets a shot from the Knife Juggler.  Weird!

I had four minions out, my opponent cast mind control tech to steal my knife juggler and killed a 3/1 with the shot.  Not a bad turnaround.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on February 11, 2014, 01:20:20 pm
Somehow I knew about the MC Tech / Knife Juggler interaction before, but here's something I don't know: if the MC Tech ability counts as summoning a minion, will it also trigger Sword of Justice, buffing the stolen minion?

Here are links to the card texts, which I don't necessarily trust:
Sword of Justice (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Sword_of_Justice)
Mind Control Tech (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Mind_Control_Tech)
Knife Juggler (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Knife_Juggler)

Related note: Mirror Entity (http://hearthstone.wikia.com/wiki/Mirror_Entity) triggers on "when your enemy plays a minion", not "summons", and that's why it doesn't trigger from Paladin's Reinforce (http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Reinforce) hero power, which does trigger Sword of Justice.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 11, 2014, 04:22:23 pm
The reason the MC tech thing works is because of the way triggers are handled. 

The steps to playing a card, as they seem to be programmed, are:

1. If the card is a minion, summon it.
2. Execute Battle cry or execute spell's written effects.
3. If effects caused damage, handle on-damage triggers. (Frothing beserker only handles one of the on-damage triggers, which is a quirky bug that doesn't fit this paradigm but does not have an impact on gameplay, probably not intended behavior but low on the priority list.
4. If something died so far, handle deathrattles and on-death triggers, then go back to 3 as necessary.
5. Now, and really not until now tell all minions and weapons on the battlefield that card X was played, and that minion X was summoned (if applicable).  Each of those minions may trigger upon being told and trigger on behalf of their current controller.


So that's why the MC tech Knife Juggler thing works.  Lightning bolt triggers always wait until after battlecries. 

Blueblimp, Knife Juggler is throwing a knife to celebrate that Mind Control Tech was summoned, not to celebrate his own shifting of controllers.  At the time of the summoning he belonged to someone else, but by the time he actually finds out about the summoning he is already on the MC tech's team.  Stealing a minion does not "summon it".  (Nor does polymorphing a minion, except when starving buzzard is watching, because Starving Buzzard is bugged like that.)



A very similar interaction is that if you use Shadow Madness on a Wild Pyromancer, the Wild Pyromancer triggers and damages everything.   That won't work for Mana Addict because the wording is different.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on February 12, 2014, 02:49:21 am
Whoops! Thanks for setting me straight.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on February 12, 2014, 04:00:01 am
A very similar interaction is that if you use Shadow Madness on a Wild Pyromancer, the Wild Pyromancer triggers and damages everything.   That won't work for Mana Addict because the wording is different.

Oh jeez, don't remind me. I was 7-2 in arena, and had a 2/1 Argent Protector, 3/1 Pyromancer, 4/1 Darkscale Healer, and 3/3 Ironfur Grizzly against an empty board and 2 cards in hand. Pretty nice board position, I was fairly certain he didn't have Holy Nova.

Drops Northshire Cleric. Heals Pyromancer to draw a card. Shadow Madness on Pyromancer, which triggers Pyro, killing everything but Grizzly, then runs the Pyro into the Grizzly. Completely killed my momentum. 2 turns later he dropped Ragnaros, and I was never able to deal with it.

Also, if you're interested in getting a little more fun out of arena, you can try building deliberately aggro decks. I got the idea from http://ihearthu.com/welcome-to-the-arena-a-different-perspective/, decided to try it out with Warlock. Proceed to get the most ridiculously aggressive deck. 2 Soulfires, 1 Power Overwhelming, 1 Arcane Golem, 1 Doomguard, 1 Hellfire for fast damage. Six one drops (none of them Flame Imp unfortunately), 2 Shattered Sun Clerics, a Dark Iron Dwarf, a Defender of Argus, and 2 Dire Wolf Alphas (which are actually really good when you almost always have a 1 drop out.)

So far it's 5-0 and I've won before turn 7 three times.

I think making a strategy like this has a lot more variance in the draft phase, because your curve shifts down a lot and you don't have as many neutral 1 drops to choose from to make the deck work. Plus, it feels Warlock specific, as they're the only class that can build back quickly after board clear.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on February 14, 2014, 06:31:46 pm
Grrr mumble mumble Mirror Entity not triggering off Power of the Wild... then I slam down Ironbark protector

I have had disastrous attempts at the all out aggro decks, both rogue attempts 0-3, just too used to playing control style I think.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 14, 2014, 07:55:49 pm
Grrr mumble mumble Mirror Entity not triggering off Power of the Wild... then I slam down Ironbark protector

I have had disastrous attempts at the all out aggro decks, both rogue attempts 0-3, just too used to playing control style I think.

I had a tough time too. I prefer Priest with lots of Taunt and lots of healing minions. Tried Warrior aggro deck but couldn't pull it off.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 14, 2014, 08:26:47 pm
I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players; Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 14, 2014, 08:49:41 pm
I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players, Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.

A warrior killed me in like 5 turns. Granted it must have been perfect luck, but he got a minion to like 16 attack and I had no way to kill it (no card in my hand, but I did in my deck). I haven't really played Warlock much, just a few times for quests, but yeah, Rogue is good to play aggressive. Lots of nice draw cards and cheap damage cards. Backstab really helps.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 14, 2014, 09:47:23 pm
I don't think Warrior is a great aggro class.  Midrange maybe but not aggro.  In arena, that is.  Besides the one time I got enough Flame axes and Bloodsail Raiders to repeatedly win turn 6, aggro Warrior has proven pretty inconsistent for me.  Lack of direct damage at common might be a large part of it.

Rogue and Warlock are the best arena aggro classes imo.  Eviscerate is pretty solid direct damage, and Assassin's dagger + possible poison is better at hitting players, Arcanite specializes at hitting yetis.

A warrior killed me in like 5 turns. Granted it must have been perfect luck, but he got a minion to like 16 attack and I had no way to kill it (no card in my hand, but I did in my deck). I haven't really played Warlock much, just a few times for quests, but yeah, Rogue is good to play aggressive. Lots of nice draw cards and cheap damage cards. Backstab really helps.

You don't want to draft the 16 damage deck.  I guarantee you that guy didn't get 9 wins that way.  Decks like that will coin flip on whether your opponent has the proper answer, and if they do have the answer, it's pretty much curtains.  That doesn't mean he played incorrectly: he may have happened to draw only the eggsinabasket parts of a more balanced deck and decided he probably wouldn't win a game of normal length, so he took the risk.  But that's not a solid arena strategy.

When you build a good aggro deck, you use multiple creatures as your threats so that Polymorph doesn't 4 for 1 you. And you mix that in with resilient creatures like Scarlet Crusader, Harvest Golem, and yeti so that mass removal doesn't 4 for 1 you.  Then there's nothing that 4 for 1's you, you get two for one'd a couple times by forked bolt or something because you have no way around that but you overall win with your early board control and direct damage finish.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 14, 2014, 09:55:35 pm
I would disagree that Rogue has "lots of nice draw cards", by the way.  Sprint is markedly inferior to Arcane Intellect, though serviceable.  Shiv is pretty mediocre in arena because spell damage +1 won't be there for you consistently.  Shiv lets you Fireblast (mage hero power) once, at the drawback of not getting to see the card underneath it until you Fireblast once.

Fan of Knives is a pretty solid draw card, the payoff is much better for going out of your way to squeeze a kobold underneath it, and it's great even if you can't manage to do that.  But 1 quality card /3 drawers is not "lots of nice draw cards".  Part of your mindset when you draft rogue is figuring out how you will avoid empty hand syndrome without resorting/relying on Sprint and Shiv because you'll want to pass on those for Yetis etc.  You accomplish this with ogres, cult masters, and assassin's blades.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 14, 2014, 10:10:00 pm
I would disagree that Rogue has "lots of nice draw cards", by the way.  Sprint is markedly inferior to Arcane Intellect, though serviceable.  Shiv is pretty mediocre in arena because spell damage +1 won't be there for you consistently.  Shiv lets you Fireblast (mage hero power) once, at the drawback of not getting to see the card underneath it until you Fireblast once.

Fan of Knives is a pretty solid draw card, the payoff is much better for going out of your way to squeeze a kobold underneath it, and it's great even if you can't manage to do that.  But 1 quality card /3 drawers is not "lots of nice draw cards".  Part of your mindset when you draft rogue is figuring out how you will avoid empty hand syndrome without resorting/relying on Sprint and Shiv because you'll want to pass on those for Yetis etc.  You accomplish this with ogres, cult masters, and assassin's blades.

I'll take your word on this. I've only been playing for a two weeks or so. Plus my deck strategy usually involves Priest and making the game last a long time and delivering blows at the end with strong cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 14, 2014, 11:54:03 pm
I just thoughtstole Tirion/Redemption.  Doesn't get much better than that..
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on February 21, 2014, 01:14:52 pm
I finally beat 7 wins in arena (9-3) with a hunter deck. The key to it I think was probably Deathwing, which I think is probably one of the strongest individual arena cards. That card wins games.

My draft wasn't bad otherwise, I had the usual strong arena cards (Harvest Golem, Chillwind Yeti, Sun Cleric, some taunts, etc) plus some good Hunter cards (Explosive Trap, Explosive Shot, Release the Hounds combined with Buzzard and Hyena, plus a few random beasts). I don't think I had a bad draft, but I won at least 3 games because I was able to turn things around with Deathwing that I probably otherwise would have lost. It is so good at turning games around, and since people might not have a lot of card removal it's tough for opponents to plan for it. They might only have one or two proper answers to it (Assassinate, Big Game Hunter, Polymorph, Hex, and so on) so you can play aggressively to try and draw them out and then drop it once they've used some of their creature removal on something like a Boulderfist Ogre.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 21, 2014, 02:30:56 pm
My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on February 21, 2014, 04:04:05 pm
This was not notable because it was my first 7 with hunter, it was my first 7 in arena ever! (well 9, but getting to 7 was my goal at the time (I'd previously only gone 5)).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 21, 2014, 04:31:47 pm
My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on February 21, 2014, 04:45:04 pm
My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.

I think just in Arena. I wouldn't say hunter is terrible in constructed (though it's probably not the strongest).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 21, 2014, 04:49:20 pm
My first hunter seven was hard too.  Hunter's pretty bad.

Bad in general, or just in the arena? I find Hunter to be pretty good for regular games, but not in the arena because you need beast cards and specific Hunter cards to make the deck work.

I think just in Arena. I wouldn't say hunter is terrible in constructed (though it's probably not the strongest).

No not the strongest, I think it's pretty clear Mage is. But Hunter can play pretty aggressive, especially since he has lots of useful and inexpensive cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on February 21, 2014, 07:49:00 pm
I think I'm finally starting to get better at arena. I'm not quite infinite in arena, but when you add in quest gold and the amount I play each day, it works out to infinite. Learning that I could cancel 40 gold quests to get better ones helped a lot in that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 21, 2014, 09:45:24 pm
Hunter is really bad in arena.  It might have the same 12 win potential as anything else, but it is very hard to get solid consistent performances when the thing spits beasts at you half the time and other times it doesn't.

Mage is not "clearly best" in constructed, it's part of a largely healthy meta in which it is not even the star, up at the top. At commons.dec MMR it's probably no better than aggrolock either.

If you were mixing up constructed and arena, you may well be right.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on February 22, 2014, 12:22:44 am
Yeah, I very much dislike hunter in arena.  The ability is just so bad, easily the worst one.  There are a few noteworthy cards (Unleash, the removal's fine to good) but nothing enough to make up for the fact that you have an ability that doesn't actually do anything.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on February 22, 2014, 01:49:58 am
I've recently started dabbling in constructed. I'm currently fiddling around with a Hunter deck that works pretty well for me at my level. It took me from level 11 to 8 yesterday. I'm currently thinking Druid, Paladin or Warrior is the strongest classes in constructed overall. Control is so strong in this game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 22, 2014, 02:35:34 am
Yeah, I very much dislike hunter in arena.  The ability is just so bad, easily the worst one.  There are a few noteworthy cards (Unleash, the removal's fine to good) but nothing enough to make up for the fact that you have an ability that doesn't actually do anything.

It's probably the second worst one.  If enough MTG principles carry over well enough, and I feel that they do, hero targetted damage and hero targetted healing are both bad, but hero targetted healing is worse.  The reason for that is while both of them ignore board position, one of them moves the game towards its ending, giving board position fewer swings to have a negative impact.  The other goes the other direction.  This gets kind of obfuscated by Warrior having these really strong weapons that make him take damage.

Warrior and Hunter are like this huge gap behind everything else, because everything else can have board impact (warlock power pretty easily converts to board impact since two activations=4 damage)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 25, 2014, 05:00:04 pm
I haven't posted here in a while, so I thought I'd comment on the last page of stuff.

Re: vanilla cards in constructed

Yeti in constucted is a thing. Ogre is not, because it has to compete with rare-legendary 6 drops like Cairne, Sylvanas, The Black Knight, Argent Commander, and Sunwalker. But there's no 4's with such big blowout abilities. A lot of decks don't run Yeti because they're too aggro for it, but if you're going to run 4 drop minions, they're going to be Twilight Drake, Violet Teacher, Sen'jin, Yeti, or something class-specific (Water Elemental, Arathi, Kor'kron, Keeper). Yeti can easily make the cut in midrange decks running 3+ 4 drop minions. For a while they were super-popular for Druid, since Innervate+Yeti on turn 1 is sick, but now it seems like more people are either going for Violet Teacher or Ancient Watcher (Yeti in disguise).

Re: warrior aggro in arena

I think not everyone agrees on what the term "aggro" means. Basically all decks vie for board control for a while and then at some point switch to going for the face. Some decks like the all-out aggro Hunter in constructed, the turning point is the coin toss, and for other decks it's after you run out of cards, but usually it's somewhere in-between. Warrior can have it be kind of early because (1) Fiery War Axe and Arathi Weaponsmith can get you a really strong board position early, and (2) Korkron Elite, Reaper, and Heroic are good at going for the face. Mostly I'd say you start picking a little more aggro-minded if you get multiple Reapers and Kor'kron early, since Fiery War Axe and Arathi are good for a more mid-range or control style as well.

Rogue you can start draft aggro from the jump, and is probably the best aggro class. But Warrior, Druid, Mage, and Paladin can also turn into pretty good aggro decks if your draft goes that way. (Hunter you always draft aggro too, but preferably, you just don't pick Hunter.)

Re: Mage being the best class

Mage is probably the best class in arena (Paladin is close). Mage is probably the worst class in constructed (Priest is close). How does this happen? Two reasons:
(1) Weak higher rarity cards. Seriously, there really aren't any good higher rarity Mage cards since Blizzard and Pyroblast got nerfed.
(2) Poor anti-aggro. Aggro is much faster in constructed than in arena because you can really finely tune your aggro deck. Mage doesn't have any useable AoE until turn 6. And mage doesn't have any source of heal besides Ice Barrier, which is not particularly inspiring, since it lacks the versatility to do anything other than heal your hero.

Re: Hunter hero power

It's the worst one, imo. Warrior is similar, but offers a little more versatility. It's usfeul in 2 situations: (1) when you're racing life, and (2) when you're trying to prolong the game. Hunter can only do (1). It's close though, because Hunter can use the hero power to force the game into (1).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on February 27, 2014, 03:00:35 am
Was it this forum's Titandrake I just played Druid vs Druid in arena? (I don't usually look at names in arena, so I'm surprised I even noticed.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 27, 2014, 03:03:30 am
HME says that too, but I'm not sure it's true.  I think you at least glance at it unconsciously at some point, your subconscious handling it and deciding to throw it away.

I feel like if my full english name was up there for twenty minutes, I would notice.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 27, 2014, 03:04:15 am
don't play another game if you haven't yet
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 27, 2014, 03:04:39 am
There's an 'add last opponent" as friend button that you could use to verify the mystery Titandrake's identity.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on February 27, 2014, 01:15:18 pm
I just started playing this, and it's quite fun.

But does it seriously have no reconnect function? That's even worse than what Goko does when you lose connection for a moment...
Also, is there a way to play untargeted cards by just clicking them instead of dragging them to the play area?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 27, 2014, 01:22:22 pm
I just started playing this, and it's quite fun.

But does it seriously have no reconnect function? That's even worse than what Goko does when you lose connection for a moment...
Also, is there a way to play untargeted cards by just clicking them instead of dragging them to the play area?

Yeah the connection thing is really bad. It even closes the entire game. And I think everything is drag. Maybe there's an option to change that?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on February 27, 2014, 01:34:59 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 27, 2014, 01:37:59 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.

You can also see what cards he's looking at. It highlights anything they are scrolling over.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 27, 2014, 02:32:24 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.

It doesn't show what you're thinking about, only where you're actually pointing with your mouse cursor. This makes it a little more like a real life card game. You have to think without actually pointing at stuff in order to not give away information.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on February 27, 2014, 02:33:34 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.

You can also see what cards he's looking at. It highlights anything they are scrolling over.

I like that feature. It makes it a bit more like playing IRL where you can see when people have a card they are thinking about a lot.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on February 27, 2014, 02:39:10 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.

You can also see what cards he's looking at. It highlights anything they are scrolling over.

I like that feature. It makes it a bit more like playing IRL where you can see when people have a card they are thinking about a lot.

I dislike it because it's an asynchronous game.  To me, I should be able to play an asynchronous game exclusively during my turn without losing information... having to pay attention when it's not my turn in an asynchronous game isn't appealing to me, but I do it because it's better than losing some potentially useful information.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on February 27, 2014, 02:41:56 pm
Was it this forum's Titandrake I just played Druid vs Druid in arena? (I don't usually look at names in arena, so I'm surprised I even noticed.)

Yeah, that was me. Hopefully my deck does well, it has ridiculous amounts of removal. The problem is that I'm lacking in the creature department, I feel like I have too much utility and not enough beats.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on February 27, 2014, 02:46:54 pm
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.

You can also see what cards he's looking at. It highlights anything they are scrolling over.

I like that feature. It makes it a bit more like playing IRL where you can see when people have a card they are thinking about a lot.

I dislike it because it's an asynchronous game.  To me, I should be able to play an asynchronous game exclusively during my turn without losing information... having to pay attention when it's not my turn in an asynchronous game isn't appealing to me, but I do it because it's better than losing some potentially useful information.

It's true that you can do better by watching your opponent's turn. You can also do better by opening a notepad file or spreadsheet to count the status of your and your opponents deck and discard pile when playing Dominion online, but you don't usually do it, because it's not worth the effort most of the time.

Your opponent can also mislead you by pretending to have some card that he doesn't. Sometimes while I'm thinking, I leave a damage spell targeted at one of my own minions (not when I'm on a laptop with a touchpad because I might accidentally click).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 27, 2014, 04:35:47 pm
I like the pointing stuff because it makes games go faster.  When a druid points at your 4/4 and ponders for several seconds, you can go ahead and start planning out how that will impact your next turn, like after someone stares at a piece in chess.

It would be really nice if you could see your next draw for turn, too, that would be even better.  By the time you're allowed to make decisions you will have seen that card already so there's little reason not to show it.


If time controls that vary to match the number of available decisions gets implemented (which I hope is something that happens), then Hearthstone can start going a whole lot faster and there will be less desire to play it in an asynchronous manner.  Ideally the time controls should be tweaked such that you want to use all the time in your opponent's turn for thinking, like in chess or blitz chess.  Right now the time control is the same whether you have two auctioneers out, three other minions, and 14 cards to work with, or whether you have 1 mana and a fistful of three drops.  It's a tad silly.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on February 28, 2014, 07:02:15 pm
I'd guess it rather makes the game slower, because players will try to think without moving their mouse to help visualizing.

There really needs to be a different time limit system. Someone just tried to slow-roll me, waiting out the timer close to the end in 4 of 8 turns without doing anything. Is there some way to report people for such a thing?

It's really funny to see how Blizzard makes many of the same mistakes Goko does.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on February 28, 2014, 07:51:06 pm
I'd guess it rather makes the game slower, because players will try to think without moving their mouse to help visualizing.

There really needs to be a different time limit system. Someone just tried to slow-roll me, waiting out the timer close to the end in 4 of 8 turns without doing anything. Is there some way to report people for such a thing?

It's really funny to see how Blizzard makes many of the same mistakes Goko does.

The time thing is actually good. If they time-out on a turn, their next turn is immediately put on a timer. Otherwise it's hard to find out who's slow-rolling. The game can't tell who's slow-rolling and who's actually thinking.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on February 28, 2014, 09:58:10 pm
I'm doing really well in Arena, which is good because it's like hey, free packs! But it's bad, because I don't want to buy packs with gold because what if I go on a losing streak, and then don't have gold to play more arena because I spent it all on packs?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on February 28, 2014, 11:43:42 pm
I'm doing really well in Arena, which is good because it's like hey, free packs! But it's bad, because I don't want to buy packs with gold because what if I go on a losing streak, and then don't have gold to play more arena because I spent it all on packs?
Yeah, you probably shouldn't buy packs.  In moments of weakness I end up buying packs, but if I had to set a minimum cushion size before doing so, I would restrict myself from buying packs with less than 1000 gold.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 01, 2014, 12:06:13 am
The only reason to buy packs is if you prefer constructed to arena, or if you really want to get all the cards. If you're a collector, then any interesting card is likely epic or legendary, and you'd be better off with the random dust awards from arena than the packs. Not sure what the rough equivalent dust<->gold is, but from packs it's not that good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on March 01, 2014, 12:56:04 am
Also, showing the opponent where you're thinking about targeting something seems really stupid.
It's a weird feature. On one hand, it's kinda cool to feel more connection with your opponent as they are playing. On the other hand, the natural response from competitive players will be to avoid moving their mouse at all until deciding on their entire turn (or at least up to the first RNG moment). So eventually you'd expect to the player base to converge on making the feature irrelevant by not giving away info.

From a software engineering economics standpoint, that strikes me as very odd. Why spend engineering effort to implement a feature that provides players an incentive to not use it? I guess it's still nice for casual players.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 01, 2014, 01:20:39 am
My guess was that it was originally in there for the debug value, then they somehow found it too endearing to cut.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 01, 2014, 12:39:44 pm
I usually mouse hover random cards and move my cursor around to let my opponent know that I haven't randomly disconnected or is being AFK. I look for this in opponents as well when they are taking a long time between actions. Also, it's pretty easy to bluff, which I think is a pretty fun addition. I like mindgames (not the card).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 01, 2014, 12:46:10 pm
The only reason to buy packs is if you prefer constructed to arena, or if you really want to get all the cards. If you're a collector, then any interesting card is likely epic or legendary, and you'd be better off with the random dust awards from arena than the packs. Not sure what the rough equivalent dust<->gold is, but from packs it's not that good.

There's also a time issue. Arena is more gold-efficient at getting you stuff, but much less time efficient.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 01, 2014, 12:50:42 pm
Is that true? It's 30 constructed wins to get 1 pack if you're not counting Daily Quests. 15 if we say that a Daily Quest nets you 50 gold. Even with arena runs under 7 wins, I think this would actually be faster, or at least as fast. Everytime you hit 7+ wins in a single arena, you've basically saved like 20+ constructed wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on March 01, 2014, 01:33:25 pm
Is that true? It's 30 constructed wins to get 1 pack if you're not counting Daily Quests. 15 if we say that a Daily Quest nets you 50 gold. Even with arena runs under 7 wins, I think this would actually be faster, or at least as fast. Everytime you hit 7+ wins in a single arena, you've basically saved like 20+ constructed wins.

On the other hand, if you're winning 2 or 3 in Arena, it ends up being slower than constructed :(

(More specifically, it takes a lot of constructed wins to get into Arena, and not very many arena losses to make you have to go back to losing a lot of constructed.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 01, 2014, 01:58:42 pm
Well, if you're getting 2-3 wins in arena, and your goal is to get cards, you would've been better off buying a pack, I think.  It used to be 5+ wins to guarantee that you got at least enough gold to make arena buying a pack, although I'm not 100% sure if that's still the case.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on March 01, 2014, 02:00:24 pm
Technically, my goal should be to get better at arena, but I'm not interested in putting money in to do that.  Which means needing better cards in constructed so that I can play more than one arena every 40 or so constructed games.

(And this is why I haven't actually played recently... it's just not worth the time, time that I don't have anyway.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 01, 2014, 02:03:47 pm
Fair enough.  One benefit of playing less is that you'll spend more time playing arena, since your ratio of daily quests to time played in game will increase.  Since I started doing a run every two days or so I've found it much much easier to keep the gold total going up rather than dropping rapidly.

What rank did everyone end last season at?  I was 12, although I wasn't particularly close to plateauing.. I just play way more arena than constructed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 01, 2014, 02:14:41 pm
What I meant about the time thing is that if you are time-limited, but not gold-limited (i.e. you had infinity gold), then buying packs is faster than playing arena. So if you're good enough at arena that you're stacking up gold (or you're spending IRL money), eventually you want to spend your gold on packs, because you can't burn through it fast enough (or at all) with arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 01, 2014, 02:40:56 pm
Fair enough.  One benefit of playing less is that you'll spend more time playing arena, since your ratio of daily quests to time played in game will increase.  Since I started doing a run every two days or so I've found it much much easier to keep the gold total going up rather than dropping rapidly.

What rank did everyone end last season at?  I was 12, although I wasn't particularly close to plateauing.. I just play way more arena than constructed.

I finished at rank 3 (though I hit rank 2 twice), mostly playing 3 decks:
1. a taunt-heavy Druid, with Watchers, Sen'jin, and Mark of the Wild; and a curve topping out at 6 for Cairne, Black Knight, and Gelbin
2. a Priest with Ancient Watchers, Sen'jins, and Molten Giants to deal with aggro; and Thoughtsteal, Rag, Ysera, Mind Control to deal with control
3. a fairly standard Shaman with Pyromancer for anti-aggro, no 4-drops, Argent Commanders, and a Windfury finisher

It seems the meta-game changed a lot over the course of the season. The Shaman was good when it was a lot of mid-rangey stuff with some aggro. The Priest was good when things polarized to heavy control or heavy aggro. But by the end, when it was mostly tempo Warlock or tempo Druid, the Druid became the best.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 01, 2014, 02:48:32 pm
Gelbin?  Was he good for you?  I never have really played with or against him.

I had a druid deck which I built myself, which beat aggro pretty heavily, since it was all removals and taunters.  It could never really beat an Ysera though... I should get an Ysera for myself, haha.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 01, 2014, 02:56:11 pm
Gelbin?  Was he good for you?  I never have really played with or against him.

I had a druid deck which I built myself, which beat aggro pretty heavily, since it was all removals and taunters.  It could never really beat an Ysera though... I should get an Ysera for myself, haha.

Actually I guess my curve technically went to 7 with Ancients of Lore, but I did run Gelbin as my biggest creature, rather than Rag, which is most likely better. But I sure didn't want to curve up to 9.

Gelbin is probably (almost certainly) worse than Rag, but he's fun. If you maintain board control, and have taunts, he's great since in that situation Homing Chicken and Emboldener are amazing, Repair bot decent, and only Poultryizer bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 01, 2014, 06:02:29 pm
The nice thing about Hearthstone is that if you don't have much time to play each day, you can get 1 arena a day a lot easier. Essentially, every day you turn down a 40 gold quest to try to get a 60 gold quest, then make a decently solid deck if the quest doesn't match your arena class.

I've got budget decks for all the classes, but they're all basically the same. Good neutral cards, plus a couple class specific ones. It's kind of boring though, and I don't have enough rarer cards to make gimmick decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 01, 2014, 06:04:28 pm
Has the disconnection issue been a problem for people? I lost two Arena games due to it today, one of which I was almost certain to win, and the other I was maybe 60% to win.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on March 01, 2014, 06:33:49 pm
Technically, my goal should be to get better at arena, but I'm not interested in putting money in to do that.  Which means needing better cards in constructed so that I can play more than one arena every 40 or so constructed games.

(And this is why I haven't actually played recently... it's just not worth the time, time that I don't have anyway.)
I'm okay with spending money on entering arena. I've spent $8 on entering arena so far, the rest of the time paying with gold earned through quests and arena rewards. For the amount of time I've spent playing Hearthstone, that's completely worth it. (It's less than the price of seeing a movie once in a theatre!)

The thing that makes me feel it's acceptable is that it's pay-to-enter, which is a non-exploitative business model. I wouldn't be comfortable with pay-to-win (which is sort of what below-top-level constructed is like), with pay-to-accelerate-play (because that's just a technique to abuse you psychologically for cash), or with pay-for-random-reward (which is effectively a slot machine, and exactly what buying packs is).

The only part of arena's pay-to-enter that is exploitative is that the amount of games you get to play is partly random, so you're not getting a fixed reward (here, play time) for your entry fee. That bothers me a little, but it's pretty minor overall I think. The play time for a single arena run generally falls within a pretty narrow band (as I tend to go between 3-3 and 7-3), so the psychological effect is minor.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 02, 2014, 09:03:11 am
After a looong break of few months, I am playing again.

Either I suck at counting or there was a bug, but I was 7-1, lose one, and it changed to 8-2 (instead of 7-2).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 02, 2014, 02:07:20 pm
I am still enjoying Hearthstone, but arena> constructed. I do feel I have opened enough packs so that it isn't completely unbalanced in constructed, but it is a bit more boring- less pressure to do well, and I still find rares that I always have in arena that I don't appear to have. I have accumulated quite a lot of dust though, without crafting anything really.
I have only paid to enter one arena, which was my first 12 win which seemed pretty coincidental! Got two packs at the end of that too!
Didn't succumb to buying any more though, often accumulating three quests is enough to cover the disastrous arena runs, and then aiming for the 8 win mark which is where you normally cover yourself gold wise (as in the pack is free). This then keeps me out of constructed apart from when I need a range of heroes. Even then, it's easier to not play ranked.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 02, 2014, 09:37:28 pm
Arena is pretty cool
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 03, 2014, 01:17:12 pm
Arena has a lot of good stuff going for it in that it provides a greater variety of experience, allowing you to see more situations you haven't seen before, which can allow you to have to think more, but there are 2 major drawbacks:
1. The level of competition varies too widely. In your first few games of every arena, you very often run into people who have no idea how to play the game. In constructed this ramp-up happens once every ladder reset, but in arena it happens every 3-14 games.
2. You can't play against friends.

It would be neat if arena were somehow stratified, say maybe having a higher-stakes arena reserved for players who have hit 12 wins at least once or something. And also if there were a way to play some sort of draft format against friends.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 03, 2014, 01:28:18 pm
Dunno why people diss constructed so much.

I am on a budget, and only have 2 legendaries (from packs, Mukla and Tirion), have few decks that I run (Druid Taunts, Paladin Weenie, Mage Agro, some random-fun too) and am having quite some fun. I play arena when I get the cash, but am doing significantly worse than before :D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 03, 2014, 01:33:11 pm
Same reason I diss Cotton Candy flavored ice cream.  It's not my preference.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on March 03, 2014, 02:03:03 pm
Arena has a lot of good stuff going for it in that it provides a greater variety of experience, allowing you to see more situations you haven't seen before, which can allow you to have to think more, but there are 2 major drawbacks:
1. The level of competition varies too widely. In your first few games of every arena, you very often run into people who have no idea how to play the game. In constructed this ramp-up happens once every ladder reset, but in arena it happens every 3-14 games.
2. You can't play against friends.

It would be neat if arena were somehow stratified, say maybe having a higher-stakes arena reserved for players who have hit 12 wins at least once or something. And also if there were a way to play some sort of draft format against friends.

I very much agree with this. I'm not great at Hearthstone, and it's kind of a waste to be playing high level opponents and only getting 2-3 wins per arena play. I'm better off just buying packs with my gold...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on March 03, 2014, 02:14:50 pm
Arena has a lot of good stuff going for it in that it provides a greater variety of experience, allowing you to see more situations you haven't seen before, which can allow you to have to think more, but there are 2 major drawbacks:
1. The level of competition varies too widely. In your first few games of every arena, you very often run into people who have no idea how to play the game. In constructed this ramp-up happens once every ladder reset, but in arena it happens every 3-14 games.
2. You can't play against friends.

It would be neat if arena were somehow stratified, say maybe having a higher-stakes arena reserved for players who have hit 12 wins at least once or something. And also if there were a way to play some sort of draft format against friends.

I very much agree with this. I'm not great at Hearthstone, and it's kind of a waste to be playing high level opponents and only getting 2-3 wins per arena play. I'm better off just buying packs with my gold...

It depends on whether you get more enjoyment from having cards or playing Arena. To me the only reason I play Hearthstone is to play Arena. So everything I do is aimed at playing Arena more. 2-3 wins per arena play actually evens out usually though. 3 wins guarantees you 50 gold, which means it's even for the run. 100 gold for a pack+50 gold which is the difference between buying a pack and entering arena. (2 wins is usually 30-45 gold which is barely a loss anyways). Over 3 wins and you're in the black gold wise. If you try to pick arena classes to match your daily quests you can also get back in the arena really quickly. I'll ditch a quest to try and match my current arena deck if it's a quest that my arena deck doesn't work towards. (0/2 Rogue or Wizard wins is useless if you're currently playing as a Shaman.) Sometimes I'll play a constructed deck if I'm a few gold off of a new arena run, but usually that's just a couple wins tops needed to go on another run.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 05, 2014, 12:27:54 pm
Ok, have to whine.
I rock a Paladin Weenie, am going up and down around level 12 ATM.

And here and there I go against the Warlock Murlock deck. And usually they are an easier matchup - I got Consecrations and Weapons and Knife Juggler and good early "trade" minions (Protectors, Squires, Harvest Golems, heck - Hoarders). So, this game I got no 1 drop. T1, he goes Coin - Young Priestess - Young Priestess. Had no way to remove them right away so more or less now I am forced to make bad trades whole game. He draws perfectly. No Consecration. Lost turn 4.


AAArgh.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 06, 2014, 09:07:49 am
Perfect draws will happen. I've managed to play two Young Priestesses during turn 1 as well. That's an insane start. That's one of the things with Hearthstone. Sometimes your opponent gets lucky while you don't. You just have to forget it and que up for the next game. ;)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 06, 2014, 09:24:54 am
I know, I know, I just had to release the frustration somewhere.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on March 06, 2014, 02:10:15 pm
My favourite lucky start is double Innervate hands with a 5 drop (or 6 drop with a coin). Turn 1 Venture Company Merc, Boulderfist Ogre, Chillwind Yeti, or Azure Drake is pretty fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 06, 2014, 02:25:13 pm
Coin, Innervate, Innervate, Hogger is hilarious
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 06, 2014, 02:45:44 pm
Coin, Innervate, Innervate, Hogger is hilarious

Jeez.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 06, 2014, 03:03:18 pm
Coin, Innervate, Innervate, Hogger is hilarious
Especially when followed by Backstab, Eviscerate.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 06, 2014, 06:48:23 pm
Just hit the 1000 win mark today.. nifty 300 gold for it.  Maybe I play too much haha, although there are people who certainly hit that months ago.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 06, 2014, 08:23:33 pm
Just hit the 1000 win mark today.. nifty 300 gold for it.  Maybe I play too much haha, although there are people who certainly hit that months ago.

Next goal is collecting all the cards for a whopping... 100 gold.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 07, 2014, 03:32:35 am
Though I'd share, might bring out a chuckle:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20240121/Hearthstone_Screenshot_3.7.2014.07.44.31.png

 ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 07, 2014, 03:42:06 am
My first thought was: "This is interesting. How do you get this many Oozes in play as Paladin?" Then I figured it out. Too stuck in Constructed mentality.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 07, 2014, 03:49:03 am
My first thought was: "This is interesting. How do you get this many Oozes in play as Paladin?" Then I figured it out. Too stuck in Constructed mentality.

Yeah, my thought was, "Either lame targets for Faceless Manipulators, or some pretty hilarious Mind Control Techs".
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on March 07, 2014, 05:49:28 pm
Just hit the 1000 win mark today.. nifty 300 gold for it.  Maybe I play too much haha, although there are people who certainly hit that months ago.

Next goal is collecting all the cards for a whopping... 100 gold.

You get some extra stuff along the way when you collect all the pirates and something other thing I think... maybe the dragons?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 07, 2014, 05:50:40 pm
Just hit the 1000 win mark today.. nifty 300 gold for it.  Maybe I play too much haha, although there are people who certainly hit that months ago.

Next goal is collecting all the cards for a whopping... 100 gold.

You get some extra stuff along the way when you collect all the pirates and something other thing I think... maybe the dragons?

You get prize cards as a reward for getting all the pirates and all the murlocs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 07, 2014, 07:19:30 pm
All Pirates gets you a parrot that draws you a random pirate in your deck when you play it. One of the Pirates is a legendary, and pirate tribal isn't even that good.

All Murlocs gets you the Murloc legendary, and Murloc tribal is stupidly fast, so it's definitely worth it if you want an aggro deck for constructed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on March 07, 2014, 11:14:53 pm
I just played the most hilarious arena game. Opponent plays Cairne, Cairne, Faceless -> Cairne in three successive turns.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 08, 2014, 01:22:20 am
Shadowform is the best card ever. It's so hilarious to realize that your hero power goes from kinda-decent to completely bonkers, and it turns out winning a topdeck war against Shadowform might as well be impossible.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 08, 2014, 05:11:37 am
I so want to make a viable Shadowform Constructed deck. Shadowform is the reason why I sometimes play Priest.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 08, 2014, 06:05:22 am
Yesterday I won an arena game on Fatigue. Was hilarious.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 08, 2014, 09:45:39 am
I won an Arena game on turn 4 yesterday (or would have if my opponent didn't concede). A single Amani Berserker did 26 damage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on March 08, 2014, 10:09:14 am
I won an Arena game on turn 4 yesterday (or would have if my opponent didn't concede). A single Amani Berserker did 26 damage.

Turn 1 Coin Amani, Turn 2 Inner Rage and Rampage? That only gets you a 10/5 swinging on turn 2 -- where'd the other 6 damage come from?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 08, 2014, 10:33:12 am
The other 2 turns would add up to 20 damage. That's a total of 30. So I'm guessing it was something that did less damage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 08, 2014, 10:34:39 am
I coined Amani turn 1, gave it the +3 Attack blessing turn 2. Then my opponent daggered it taking 5 damage and triggering the enrage :P
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 08, 2014, 11:26:17 am
I coined Amani turn 1, gave it the +3 Attack blessing turn 2. Then my opponent daggered it taking 5 damage and triggering the enrage :P

He probably had backstab in hand and wanted to save himself some damage, so he attacked first, and than realized backstab works on undamaged only. :P
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 08, 2014, 02:42:37 pm
I coined Amani turn 1, gave it the +3 Attack blessing turn 2. Then my opponent daggered it taking 5 damage and triggering the enrage :P

He probably had backstab in hand and wanted to save himself some damage, so he attacked first, and than realized backstab works on undamaged only. :P

Oh man, I've done that so many times.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 08, 2014, 06:33:03 pm
Arena does give a lot of great times; winning on fatigue when on 1 health having deliberately made it so that he would draw empty first with some careful planning... priceless.
Somehow winning 8 games with a warrior deck with no flaming battle axes! (I also took two ancient watchers but only one sunfury protector and no defender of argus :S)
Drafting ridiculously good decks and only winning a few games...
Drafting stupid decks which may or not work (6 secrets as mage to try and work with ethereal arcanist and secretkeeper (!))
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 08, 2014, 09:06:51 pm
I had a game two days ago, in Arena, where I slammed Malygos, than opponent slams Ragnaros. He hits unrelated minion, I topdeck flamestrike for the awesome times. :D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on March 09, 2014, 12:04:10 pm
I had a game two days ago, in Arena, where I slammed Malygos, than opponent slams Ragnaros. He hits unrelated minion, I topdeck flamestrike for the awesome times. :D

After five or so fights, Rag became a bit of a pushover.  Malygos never felt like that, what with having to coordinate a bunch of red dragons to take him out.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 10, 2014, 12:06:56 pm
My last two arena runs were really bad, but at least I got 2 legendaries out of them. Too bad I don't have any gold left now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 10, 2014, 05:51:41 pm
Wow!  They nerfed Pagle and Tinkmaster a ton!

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/11985288985#1

I think Tinkmaster is now very, very weak.  I still think Pagle will see some play, although certainly less than he is now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on March 10, 2014, 05:53:22 pm
My last two arena runs were really bad, but at least I got 2 legendaries out of them. Too bad I don't have any gold left now.

I feel the same way as you -- I just got Ragnaros and Antonidas from a 1-3 and 2-3 runs. The gold hit hurts, but it's probably worth it!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 10, 2014, 07:09:24 pm
I don't know if this happens often or not, but I just got a minion to 20/20.
Just made a ridiculous comeback by bringing a minion to 36/36.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on March 11, 2014, 08:12:13 am
So, the latest nerfs to Nat Pagle and Tinkmaster Overspark:

I don't disagree that they were two of the most "overused" (not used more than was correct, but powerful enough that they deserves all tha usage) cards, and that made their swinginess competitively relevant. Tinkmaster got hit hard enough that it's essentially a non-card as far as competitive play is concerned. I don't feel like they went the right way with Nat Pagle though. They weakened his power level, but they didn't change the actual mechanic at all, so it's still just as swingy as before, and they didn't lower the power level enough to make sure he was competitively unviable. There's a reason all the coin-flippy cards in MTG are underpowered -- it's not great to have a competitive match hinge on coin flips.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 11, 2014, 08:34:34 am
Tit's not great to have a competitive match hinge on coin flips.

Well, now..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8J5AQMZ8V0
Edit: linked a better quality video.

Spoiler (for non-MTGers too):
Left is Nassif, right is Chapin, both (now) Hall of Famers and playing the same combo deck in the semifinals of Worlds. Nassif muligans to 4. When the video joins in, he is about to combo off the next turn, and Chapin has to go all in. Chapin casts some spells, gets him to 9, and than casts Ignite Memories, which says "Target player reveals a card at random from hand. Ignite Memories deals X damage where X is the card's mana cost. Copy Y times, where Y is how many spells you cast before this." So he has 5 copies all-together. Nassif is at 9, has a 5 coster (Ignite Memories), 2 coster(Grapeshot) and a 1coster(Ritual) in hand. If he reveals Ignite at any point, he is dead. He reveals 3 grapeshots, so he needs to reveal 2 rituals or it's over. He does. He wins next turn by casting the same spell, but Chapin had all 9 and 8 cost spells in hand. xD
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on March 11, 2014, 03:31:24 pm
Man, that's not a million to one shot.  That's about 1 in 11.  (32 in 343 if you want to be picky.)

In fact, after the first three draws, the chances on the last two are 1 in 9.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 11, 2014, 03:52:34 pm
I've always thought
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t0pzLnSWw0

was a better story. The odds were probably better than 1 in 11, but at most it's around 1 in 6.


At the end of Oliver Ruel's turn, Craig is at 3 life. He only has a 3/3 out, opponent is at 7 life, and he has a blocker that can block the Watchwolf, meaning Craig loses unless he wins this turn. He plays the Char in his hand end of turn (4 damage to anything, 2 damage to self), then topdecks a Lightning Helix to get the last 3 damage to win.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 11, 2014, 03:54:52 pm
So, the latest nerfs to Nat Pagle and Tinkmaster Overspark:

I don't disagree that they were two of the most "overused" (not used more than was correct, but powerful enough that they deserves all tha usage) cards, and that made their swinginess competitively relevant. Tinkmaster got hit hard enough that it's essentially a non-card as far as competitive play is concerned. I don't feel like they went the right way with Nat Pagle though. They weakened his power level, but they didn't change the actual mechanic at all, so it's still just as swingy as before, and they didn't lower the power level enough to make sure he was competitively unviable. There's a reason all the coin-flippy cards in MTG are underpowered -- it's not great to have a competitive match hinge on coin flips.

I don't see the tangible difference between "coin flips" and "random shuffling and drawing". There's a lot of randomness in card games. The goal wasn't to make these cards less random, just less powerful, and they did that with both of them. And technically, yet Pagle is now less random. During his lifetime, you flip the coin exactly 1 less time, which reduces the variance in the number of cards he draws. I also think he's weakened enough to come out of a lot of decks. You still probably want him in Warrior control or Miracle Rogue where you're not concerned too much about the tempo loss and have a decent shot to stick him for more than 2 turns, but if you were previously drawing an average of 1 card with him, that's now down to 0.5, which is probably not enough to be worth it. I'm probably going to dust mine.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on March 11, 2014, 04:38:15 pm
Shuffling decks is random. Coin flipping is random. Two random elements equals less consistency and more random. I think that's the point. Not that the card itself is random.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 11, 2014, 04:40:54 pm
I've always thought

<Char you>

was a better story. The odds were probably better than 1 in 11, but at most it's around 1 in 6.


I've deliberately chose one where the win wasn't a Topdeck but rather a card effect, to illustrate the point.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on March 11, 2014, 06:41:01 pm
A shuffled deck is dependent randomness, though, not independent like a coin flip. That's my major issue with it I think.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 11, 2014, 06:48:38 pm
Think I only seen Tinkmaster a couple of times in all my arena runs. The Nat nerf is hard. Maybe time to disenchant my golden one!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 11, 2014, 07:02:55 pm
Think I only seen Tinkmaster a couple of times in all my arena runs. The Nat nerf is hard. Maybe time to disenchant my golden one!
OH GOD DON'T DO THIS BEFORE THE PATCH OR YOU LOSE 3 LEGENDARIES OF DUST
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 11, 2014, 07:08:56 pm
Oh, it patched already.  hidden buff for water elemental, lookie there
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 11, 2014, 07:12:32 pm
And a nerf to the paladin deck I was playing :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 11, 2014, 07:13:49 pm
Oh, it patched already.  hidden buff for water elemental, lookie there
What's the buff?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 11, 2014, 07:19:22 pm
Oh, it patched already.  hidden buff for water elemental, lookie there
What's the buff?

Water Elemental (Mage) will now properly freeze armored heroes as intended.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 11, 2014, 07:33:11 pm
Think I only seen Tinkmaster a couple of times in all my arena runs. The Nat nerf is hard. Maybe time to disenchant my golden one!
OH GOD DON'T DO THIS BEFORE THE PATCH OR YOU LOSE 3 LEGENDARIES OF DUST

Heh thanks, no EU hasn't patched yet, but I was only considering d/e because I know the value will go back up.
Probably won't as I am a hoarder, just keep all my cards and all my dust not made anything really.....
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 11, 2014, 07:34:23 pm
Don't be a hoarder.  The worst thing that happens is you recraft golden pagle for the exact same dust cost and lose nothing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 11, 2014, 07:38:21 pm
I hoard my cards, but that's because I don't play constructed and thus have no reason to bother disenchanting any of them.

It's also more that I don't have extra copies of the card to disenchant. No point disenchanting things like Flame Imp or Dark Iron Dwarf, when I know I'm still going to run them anyways.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 11, 2014, 07:50:43 pm
Oh, it patched already.  hidden buff for water elemental, lookie there
What's the buff?

Water Elemental (Mage) will now properly freeze armored heroes as intended.

This is kind of weird. The previous behavior seemed right based on the wording of the card, whether or not it was "intended".

I hoard my cards, but that's because I don't play constructed and thus have no reason to bother disenchanting any of them.

It's also more that I don't have extra copies of the card to disenchant. No point disenchanting things like Flame Imp or Dark Iron Dwarf, when I know I'm still going to run them anyways.

This seems somewhat inconsistent.

From a practical standpoint, there isn't a huge difference between keeping a card that is dustable for full value and crafting the card. So if you wouldn't craft the card, there's no reason to keep it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 11, 2014, 08:06:39 pm
You can't tousle the leaves on the city board anymore.  I'm quitting Hearthstone.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 11, 2014, 08:44:14 pm
Oh, it patched already.  hidden buff for water elemental, lookie there
What's the buff?

Water Elemental (Mage) will now properly freeze armored heroes as intended.

I didn't even realize that was a bug.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 11, 2014, 09:12:03 pm
You can't tousle the leaves on the city board anymore.  I'm quitting Hearthstone.

Nooooooo :(

This seems somewhat inconsistent.

From a practical standpoint, there isn't a huge difference between keeping a card that is dustable for full value and crafting the card. So if you wouldn't craft the card, there's no reason to keep it.

I have a couple of casual decks I use to get daily quests that I can't get in arena. They used neutrals like Dark Iron Dwarf, and I was planning to use Dark Iron Dwarf even with the nerf, so I didn't have a reason to dust them, given that I was going to recraft them anyways if I did. I did disenchant my copies of Cone of Cold when they got nerfed, because I wasn't running them anyways.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on March 11, 2014, 09:43:40 pm
You can't tousle the leaves on the city board anymore.  I'm quitting Hearthstone.

Leaves were overpowered.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 12, 2014, 12:06:41 am
You can't tousle the leaves on the city board anymore.  I'm quitting Hearthstone.

The leaves were causing the minion swapping bug.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 12, 2014, 07:07:26 am
PSA: Sorcerer's apprentice will now cause a visual bug where you appear to have less mana than you do.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on March 12, 2014, 05:14:03 pm
A shuffled deck is dependent randomness, though, not independent like a coin flip. That's my major issue with it I think.
That's part of it, and Pagle is also boring randomness. Mad Bomber is also independent but is a lot more fun as a card. A Pagle mirror of "one player randomly gains card advantage" is dull. I'm surprised they didn't go the route of having the card choose from a couple different random bonuses that are weaker-yet-more-interesting than drawing a card. That said, I rarely play constructed, so as long as Pagle's not deciding the outcome of ESGN Fight Nights anymore, I don't really care what form the nerf takes.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on March 12, 2014, 06:22:30 pm
I just downloaded this last night and it is kinda fun.  It's the first TCG I've ever played, so I'm not really good at building a deck yet (especially because there are so many cards to choose from) but I'm having fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on March 12, 2014, 07:03:08 pm
I am always amazed at how many legendaries/epics some people have compared to how well they know how to play the game. I guess these are newbies who bought some packs?

I am glad though that deckbuilding and having good cards is at most half of the the game though; otherwise my hmmm-this-card-looks-fun style decks would not win much in constructed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 12, 2014, 07:09:49 pm
So, I DE'd my golden tinkmaster yesterday and crafted a Ysera and Ragnaros to put into my druid deck.

oh my god are they ridiculous.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 12, 2014, 08:49:25 pm
I keep getting stuck at 6 wins in arena :( Really bad number to be stuck at, but at least I'm getting lucky with still getting 130-140 gold often.

Alos, it's really annoying you can't alt-tab out anymore somehow.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on March 12, 2014, 09:51:39 pm
Just saw this in the patch notes:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/13154924
Quote
Secrets can now only activate on your opponentís turn.

Activating your own secrets feels a little strange, but mostly, the ability to do this was preventing us from creating new and powerful secrets that trigger off of events you can easily control (like a minion dying).  They end up functioning just like spells, instead of trying to bait your opponent into a bad play.  This change keeps secrets working like traps you lay for your opponent, instead of spells that you cast and use on your own turn.
Sad to see this as it's a significant nerf to Redemption. (There's almost no effect on other secrets apart from Eye for an Eye, barring edge cases like a Misdirected attack.) Paladin secrets were already pretty weak in arena, but Redemption could get OK value with careful use. Now it seems almost useless, since triggering it off a token is horrible.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 12, 2014, 10:33:15 pm
^Redemption was already pretty bad in arena, since you need enough divine shield and/or charge minions to get any value out of it. But yeah, it went from situationally pickable to nearly unpickable.

There were constructed decks that focused on it, and there were even constructed rush decks that used Eye for and Eye as a sort of Sinister Strike by playing it then hitting your high-attack minion with a weapon. Sucks for the people running those decks (though maybe not, since now they are forced to play something better).

Anyway, I think it's nice that it opens up the design space for more powerful secrets even if it makes all the current ones useless. There's going to be a lot more cards coming out in the future.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 13, 2014, 12:16:05 am
Redemption was a good arena card before.  It just was very bad in decks that are designed to maximize value Truesilver, which are your archetypical 9 win Paladin decks.  A bad draft that is not getting offered Truesilvers and Consecrates could be salvaged from 2-3 wins up to 5-6 by constructing a deck that consistently plays Redemption->Coin-Resilient3.  As player 1, Redemption fit in smoothly as a step in "I play a dude, you play a dude, i bash my dude into your dude, I play a dude, you play a dude, <insert redemption> I bash my dude into your dude".

That's not really a thing anymore.

On the other hand, Redemption might, maybe, possibly, stay level or get better in constructed.  You can now put Wolf Riders and Blue Gill Warriors (and southsea deckhands) without interfering with redemption, so you can stick a Scarlet Crusader ontop of a Redemption out there and still keep doing useful stuff with your mana if they try to refuse to kill it. Before the only decent things you could do with your mana costed exactly 4 mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 13, 2014, 01:21:42 am
Redemption was a good arena card before.  It just was very bad in decks that are designed to maximize value Truesilver, which are your archetypical 9 win Paladin decks.  A bad draft that is not getting offered Truesilvers and Consecrates could be salvaged from 2-3 wins up to 5-6 by constructing a deck that consistently plays Redemption->Coin-Resilient3.  As player 1, Redemption fit in smoothly as a step in "I play a dude, you play a dude, i bash my dude into your dude, I play a dude, you play a dude, <insert redemption> I bash my dude into your dude".

Redemption is a passable 1-drop, but 1-drops are bad. It's true that you are more likely to pick 1-drops with Paladin than with other classes, because board control is even more valuable with the ability to snowball with tokens and buffs, but it's still a long way from "good". I guess it depends on what you mean by "good". Better than Young Dragonhawk, sure. But not something I'm typically taking over Raptor/Croc.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on March 13, 2014, 09:22:40 pm
Quote
Warrior wins: 1/500

Seeing this is pretty daunting. I don't think I'll get anywhere close to 500 for any class...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 13, 2014, 11:52:08 pm
Redemption was a good arena card before.  It just was very bad in decks that are designed to maximize value Truesilver, which are your archetypical 9 win Paladin decks.  A bad draft that is not getting offered Truesilvers and Consecrates could be salvaged from 2-3 wins up to 5-6 by constructing a deck that consistently plays Redemption->Coin-Resilient3.  As player 1, Redemption fit in smoothly as a step in "I play a dude, you play a dude, i bash my dude into your dude, I play a dude, you play a dude, <insert redemption> I bash my dude into your dude".

Redemption is a passable 1-drop, but 1-drops are bad. It's true that you are more likely to pick 1-drops with Paladin than with other classes, because board control is even more valuable with the ability to snowball with tokens and buffs, but it's still a long way from "good". I guess it depends on what you mean by "good". Better than Young Dragonhawk, sure. But not something I'm typically taking over Raptor/Croc.
Better than croc, not raptor.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on March 14, 2014, 01:37:50 am
Really, Redemption over River Crocodile? I'm a fan of Redemption myself, you get a surprising amount of mileage out of making a trade not work out the way your opponent planned it. My issue is that the 1 damage ping is so easy to do. I suppose you get a lot of tempo for it though, when you play Redemption early, and especially if you popped it yourself.

I'm kinda sad that's not doable anymore, but hopefully a new secret comes out that makes it worth it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 14, 2014, 04:34:19 am
"1 damage ping is so easy to do"?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 14, 2014, 06:02:15 am
Mage/Druid/Rogue's Hero Powers.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on March 14, 2014, 07:40:22 am
Those only kill half a Harvest Golem or Crusader though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 14, 2014, 08:36:40 am
I know, I was merely explaining Titantdrake's term.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 15, 2014, 12:01:53 pm
Alos, it's really annoying you can't alt-tab out anymore somehow.

This!
So annoying- but switched to window mode and can play half heartedly once more!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on March 15, 2014, 05:17:14 pm
Alos, it's really annoying you can't alt-tab out anymore somehow.

This!
So annoying- but switched to window mode and can play half heartedly once more!

Is actually very annoying since when I disconnect from my internet I can't go check it without quitting my game. Playing in a window sucks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 15, 2014, 05:35:23 pm
Workaround: You can press Alt+Enter to switch to windowed mode and then Alt+Tab.

Has anyone managed to successfully reconnect to a game?
I've had like 5 arena losses due to second-long connection drops today...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 15, 2014, 05:43:58 pm
And it's up to 6...
EDIT: And 7. I'm pretty sure my internet connection didn't even drop for a second the last two times...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on March 16, 2014, 08:16:50 pm
Good workaround, I actually haven't played since they stopped letting me alt-tab out because it annoyed me, but this will totally solve that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jimmmmm on March 16, 2014, 08:18:33 pm
Has anyone else noticed that the clock tower actually tells the time?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on March 16, 2014, 09:38:25 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on March 16, 2014, 09:43:18 pm
And it's up to 6...
EDIT: And 7. I'm pretty sure my internet connection didn't even drop for a second the last two times...

I have reconnected after a second disconnection. It clears your log and usually the game takes so long that you miss your turn.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on March 22, 2014, 11:20:29 pm
Just got 12 wins for the first time. Yay!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on March 23, 2014, 05:50:48 pm
Gratz! I have been doing terribly in Arena last set of runs- think it was all that Hunter aggro play on constructed fouled me up!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on March 24, 2014, 12:01:27 am
Gratz! I have been doing terribly in Arena last set of runs- think it was all that Hunter aggro play on constructed fouled me up!

Yeah I find that it's tough switching back and forth between arena and constructed because the play decisions are a lot different, so your first instinct will be wrong a lot.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on March 24, 2014, 05:43:06 pm
I just had a really fun game against TA!  I killed him over two turns by throwing 4 fireballs at him.. as a warrior!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on April 04, 2014, 06:15:57 pm
I play! Hit me up, ycz#1361.

I hope they figure out an interface for cards that let you choose other cards in your hand soon. I want those Throne Room/Cellar/Masquerade equivalents... :P
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 07, 2014, 12:31:51 am
I play! Hit me up, ycz#1361.

I hope they figure out an interface for cards that let you choose other cards in your hand soon. I want those Throne Room/Cellar/Masquerade equivalents... :P

Ill add you, my username is the same as here, KingZog3. I also dont spend any money, so my decks only contain what I've gotten from packs as arena runs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 07, 2014, 08:01:34 am
I play! Hit me up, ycz#1361.

I hope they figure out an interface for cards that let you choose other cards in your hand soon. I want those Throne Room/Cellar/Masquerade equivalents... :P

Ill add you, my username is the same as here, KingZog3. I also dont spend any money, so my decks only contain what I've gotten from packs as arena runs.

If you want anyone else to be able to add you, you have to include your number also, just for the record.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 07, 2014, 11:38:20 am
I play! Hit me up, ycz#1361.

I hope they figure out an interface for cards that let you choose other cards in your hand soon. I want those Throne Room/Cellar/Masquerade equivalents... :P

Ill add you, my username is the same as here, KingZog3. I also dont spend any money, so my decks only contain what I've gotten from packs as arena runs.

If you want anyone else to be able to add you, you have to include your number also, just for the record.

Yes, I will post my number. I'm not at home now, but if I add him he'll know its not some random person. But my number shall come soon!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 07, 2014, 09:11:45 pm
Once again failed to get a 12 win arena :( With this deck, I felt I had a shot, but then I played 2 mages. The first one had Fireball + Poly + Blizzard + 2 Flamestrikes, and I had no idea how to get around any of it. The second one coined out an Amani Berzerker turn 1, went very aggressive, and I didn't draw the right cards to counter it.

Not pictured: Archmage, Sunwalker, Guardian of Kings, War Golem.

http://i.imgur.com/0LwQZir.png
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 07, 2014, 10:32:13 pm
Once again failed to get a 12 win arena :( With this deck, I felt I had a shot, but then I played 2 mages. The first one had Fireball + Poly + Blizzard + 2 Flamestrikes, and I had no idea how to get around any of it. The second one coined out an Amani Berzerker turn 1, went very aggressive, and I didn't draw the right cards to counter it.

Not pictured: Archmage, Sunwalker, Guardian of Kings, War Golem.

http://i.imgur.com/0LwQZir.png

Obviously I can't know what you didn't pick, but I know I strive not to take neutral 4 drops as a Paladin in arena because they have so many good class cards at 4.


I had a hilarious game today where we were both priests, he topdecked a Mind Vision, and out of my 3 card hand, copied my Mind Vision three times in a row.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 07, 2014, 10:59:51 pm
Power 3's are so much better than Power 4's for Paladin when you pick neutrals, for sure.  Not only do 4 drop minions share a cost with your awesome sauce 4 mana stuff, one of those awesome 4 mana things buffs a minion, so you need a 3 mana or at least a 3 mana minion to receive the Blessing.  If instead you have to give +4/+4 to a Dark Iron Dwarf as your turn 5 play there is way less oomph.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on April 08, 2014, 08:26:59 pm
I got my first legendary in a pack today... it was Millhouse Manastorm.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 08, 2014, 10:46:06 pm
I play! Hit me up, ycz#1361.

I hope they figure out an interface for cards that let you choose other cards in your hand soon. I want those Throne Room/Cellar/Masquerade equivalents... :P

Ill add you, my username is the same as here, KingZog3. I also dont spend any money, so my decks only contain what I've gotten from packs as arena runs.

If you want anyone else to be able to add you, you have to include your number also, just for the record.

KingZog3#1700

You guys can add me for some fun times.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 08, 2014, 11:35:17 pm
I got my first legendary in a pack today... it was Millhouse Manastorm.

Also my first legendary!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 09, 2014, 12:20:20 am
Milhouse Manastorm is awesome.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 09, 2014, 12:43:36 am
I just got my first legendary today. Ragnaros the Firelord.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 09, 2014, 01:37:43 am
Once again failed to get a 12 win arena :( With this deck, I felt I had a shot, but then I played 2 mages. The first one had Fireball + Poly + Blizzard + 2 Flamestrikes, and I had no idea how to get around any of it. The second one coined out an Amani Berzerker turn 1, went very aggressive, and I didn't draw the right cards to counter it.

Not pictured: Archmage, Sunwalker, Guardian of Kings, War Golem.

http://i.imgur.com/0LwQZir.png

Obviously I can't know what you didn't pick, but I know I strive not to take neutral 4 drops as a Paladin in arena because they have so many good class cards at 4.
I don't know. I basically never decline to pick Sen'jin, Yeti, or Dwarf, regardless of curve. Those cards are just so good. You don't play Consecration on turn 4 every game, and they're better than Hammer and a lot of times better than BoK. You probably don't want Ogre Magi or and probably prefer not to have a second Spellbreaker or the Hammer, but having a 4-heavy curve is fine. The real problem I see is the lack of 2-drops. If your opponent coins out an Amani Berzerker on turn 1, you're going to have a tough time (which is what happened). Paladin hero power is playable turn 2, but really not preferable.

Quote
I had a hilarious game today where we were both priests, he topdecked a Mind Vision, and out of my 3 card hand, copied my Mind Vision three times in a row.
If only Lorewalker Cho had been out...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 09, 2014, 01:40:39 am
I got my first legendary in a pack today... it was Millhouse Manastorm.

My first one was Millhouse too. Fortunately I had better luck with later ones. I think Rag was my third.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 09, 2014, 01:56:46 am
I've only gotten Cenarius. He's pretty good, but he can only be used in a druid deck so I feel a little meh about finding him.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 09, 2014, 03:52:28 am
Yeah, during my draft, I was really worried that I didn't get many 2 costs. I could have taken some, but we're talking Frostwolf Grunt vs Chillwind Yeti as most of my choices. Think of it as, I picked every 3/2 and 2/3 that I got, and I passed most 2/2s for the 3 cost and 4 cost monsters in my draft.

I picked Ogre Magi because it was pretty late in the draft, and I already had the Consecrate and Hammer of Wrath, so I was thinking the spell damage would matter.

This actually worked out okay for most games. My early game was bad, but I usually had a 3 cost, and coining it out turn 2 helped me a lot. Guess my luck ran out at the end.

So far, I've gotten 2 legendaries, Malygos and Prophet Velen. They're both super fun legendaries, Malygos + Swipe is basically an instant win.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 10, 2014, 07:25:52 pm
I guess I've been playing too much Hearthstone, I have about eight or so legendaries, though the golden Nat Pagle disenchant did buy my Ysera and Leeroy, tempted to cash in some other spares and get The Black Night or Cairne, though I think Ysera and Ragneros are out there the best. Most of the class specific heroes aren't nearly as good, though an amped Garrosh is fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 11, 2014, 07:20:22 am
Oh, also Drab #1455.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on April 11, 2014, 01:12:31 pm
Update has been announced, and it sounds pretty cool, except it doesn't mention fixing reconnect:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/13665269
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 11, 2014, 01:24:47 pm
Update has been announced, and it sounds pretty cool, except it doesn't mention fixing reconnect:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/13665269

Has this started already? If it has I know what I'll be doing when I get home.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 11, 2014, 01:48:31 pm
Update has been announced, and it sounds pretty cool, except it doesn't mention fixing reconnect:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/13665269

Has this started already? If it has I know what I'll be doing when I get home.

In answer to myself it has not started yet. Nor have they said when except that it will be "a later date".
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 11, 2014, 04:24:23 pm
Looks sweet!  I guess it's time to start saving gold for it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 11, 2014, 05:25:56 pm
That does look fun! Be a nice mix up at a good time hopefully.

Just had my first Tirion in my current arena run- he is AMAZING! (apart from when silenced :( sad times)
Big part of my current success, though I do seem to be better with the paladin in arena- the power of some of the cards is great- Equality/ Consecration also first time with them both and it wins games better than flame strike perhaps. Anyhow hope I haven't jinxed myself and the run goes a couple more wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 15, 2014, 08:41:30 am
Just started playing, unlocked the different classes by playing basic mage (now level 11).  I kinda want to practice with each of the classes (basic decks) as I level them to 10 against the AI (probably playing just expert now that it's unlocked), to get a feel for each class.  Once I know a bit about them, I think I'll build a crappy deck full of basic cards for each and explore matches with real people.  Then try arena once I've got some gold from those wins and stuff.

what's the state of things?  which classes are the most fun to play?  Which classes will the win-centric players be playing?

Who here plays still, and how can I add y'all as friends?

Is there anyway to chat in-game?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 15, 2014, 08:41:48 am
Six mana has literally only one good neutral basic, Ogre.  The others range from really bad to painful.  If you pass up a chance to take an Ogre, you're going to be stuck with Windfury Harpy instead and that's a huge quality drop. (Actually it's such a quality drop that you should probably skip the Harpy). 
Can you explain why?  I look at the harpy and think, "oh, 8 damage", and look at the ogre and say "only 6 damage".  I guess there's more toughness on the Ogre, and other stuff I guess?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 15, 2014, 08:50:12 am
shraeye#1428
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 15, 2014, 09:02:23 am
shraeye#1428

Ill add you tonight.

Six mana has literally only one good neutral basic, Ogre.  The others range from really bad to painful.  If you pass up a chance to take an Ogre, you're going to be stuck with Windfury Harpy instead and that's a huge quality drop. (Actually it's such a quality drop that you should probably skip the Harpy). 
Can you explain why?  I look at the harpy and think, "oh, 8 damage", and look at the ogre and say "only 6 damage".  I guess there's more toughness on the Ogre, and other stuff I guess?

The reason there is a drop is because Harpy has low health, and has a hard time killing high health minions. Ogre can survive a hit, even possibly be healed, and deal much more damage. Windfury can be really good, but I think the Shaman cards that let you boost a minion with it are best for Windfury.

As for each class, it depends what you like. Personally I find Priest to be a lot of fun. It has lots of shut down cards that make the game last a long time, and then drop powerful minions and steal his. I also like Warrior, because his cards are interesting and theres a nice balance between dealing damage and taking damage.

I hate Mages. They can die with their Flamestrikes and Pyroblasts. I also find Druid to be boring. Also a bit weak, as they can have a hard time dealing with high health minions. Druid has no easy shutdown spells like Polymorph, Hex or Assassinate.

I general though each class as their schtick, and which class you start with will most likely be determined a bit by the cards you get in your first packs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on April 15, 2014, 09:03:25 am
Just started playing, unlocked the different classes by playing basic mage (now level 11).  I kinda want to practice with each of the classes (basic decks) as I level them to 10 against the AI (probably playing just expert now that it's unlocked), to get a feel for each class.  Once I know a bit about them, I think I'll build a crappy deck full of basic cards for each and explore matches with real people.  Then try arena once I've got some gold from those wins and stuff.

what's the state of things?  which classes are the most fun to play?  Which classes will the win-centric players be playing?

Who here plays still, and how can I add y'all as friends?

Is there anyway to chat in-game?

If you win against all expert AI at least once, you get 300 gold. Do it.

Only the basic chat emotes are available, right click on hero.
I am #Grujah2516, but rarely play.

Because Harpy rarely gets to make those 8 damage. She dies to a 5/5, and 5/5 lives. Ogre survives that killing the 5/5. She really needs a clear or weak board to be effective, or lots of taunts on yours side, otherwise is much easier than ogre to deal with.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on April 15, 2014, 09:07:20 am
If you attack something with Ogre that dies from it, you take their strength in damage. If you attack something and need to hit it twice with a Harpy, you take two times their strength in damage. Add that to the more important fact that while Harpy dies to 5-6 strength guys Ogre doesn't.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 15, 2014, 10:11:56 am
Basically, the most basic mistake is don't use your minions to hit the other guy in the face, unless they have no minions (that you can trade with favourably) That is why the Harpy doesn't, shouldn't read 8 damage because that would only be if you have it out on an empty board.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 15, 2014, 10:38:41 am
ok, i'm still in the stage where I'm valuing face-damage highly.  I recognize the importance of trades, but I seem to only be mentally willing to trade up.  I'm virtually never trading even, and just getting in maximum face-damage when the other option is to trade down.

I went through the mage and loved it.  Tough, because I don't play enough minions.  However, I love the blue/red (a la Magic) feel to this with tempo + burn.  So I got love for that.  Playing the AI, I lost to the hunter (he got outta my control-range with his Battlecry-summon minions) and I think some other class but I can't remember.  Almost every game ended in a fireball, or double-fireball.  Favorite card: Polymorph.  Fun level: 8/10

Just played through with Warrior vs the normal AI of each class...lost the first match vs Mage when I was figuring out how things worked.  Then won the rest handily.  Played against a person; won handily (granted, they were doing dumb stuff like refusing to trade at all, and trying to out-race me with face damage..."ok, you can hit me for 3 a turn, congrats.  Here's 9 damage").  He has a sort of aggro feel, and I quickly realized that I needed to hold just enough in my hand so that occasional board wipes didn't scare me (a.k.a. roughly starting handsize).  Probably that needs more balancing against clever-humans.  Favorite card: Warsong Commander.  Fun level: 6/10

More research incoming...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 15, 2014, 10:43:11 am
Six mana has literally only one good neutral basic, Ogre.  The others range from really bad to painful.  If you pass up a chance to take an Ogre, you're going to be stuck with Windfury Harpy instead and that's a huge quality drop. (Actually it's such a quality drop that you should probably skip the Harpy). 
Can you explain why?  I look at the harpy and think, "oh, 8 damage", and look at the ogre and say "only 6 damage".  I guess there's more toughness on the Ogre, and other stuff I guess?

Everyone has given good specific answers, but I just wanted to add something about more generally evaluating minions. As Jdaki said, don't think about how much face damage they can do if ignored. If the minion doesn't have charge, there's very good chance that you will never get to attack with it (particularly later in the game -- in this case turn 6 or later), so you have to look at what your opponent will lose before he removes it. This is why generally you like stuff with battlecries and don't like stuff with windfury. Windfury never comes into play unless you actually get to attack.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on April 15, 2014, 10:44:17 am
I'm virtually never trading even, and just getting in maximum face-damage when the other option is to trade down.

Thing is, if you don't trade even now, your opponent is likely to have a buff or a damage spell which will allow him trade up on his turn and take over the tempo. Ok, this is not always the case, but quite often it is, esp in Arena, I think.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 15, 2014, 10:58:42 am
I'm virtually never trading even, and just getting in maximum face-damage when the other option is to trade down.

Thing is, if you don't trade even now, your opponent is likely to have a buff or a damage spell which will allow him trade up on his turn and take over the tempo. Ok, this is not always the case, but quite often it is, esp in Arena, I think.
That's a good point.  I'm sure that Arena play will differ significantly from silly AI-play, and it's good to know what to be expecting when I transition.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on April 15, 2014, 03:52:15 pm
The way I value attack vs health in arena depends on minion cost. With a low-cost minion, you're trying to trade it favourably with higher-cost minions--getting a 1-for-1 will often be satisfactory. With a high-cost minion, you're trying to trade it favourably with lower-cost minions--you want a 2-for-1. High attack is better for trading with higher-cost minions (e.g. 3/2 kills a 4/3), and high health is better for trading with lower-cost minions (e.g. 4/5 kills two 3/2's). So on low-cost minions (anything 3 mana or less), prefer higher attack, and on high-cost minions (anything 4 mana or more), prefer higher health. Obviously there are some sanity bounds on this (e.g. yeti is better than turtle).

(The reason 1-mana minions tend to be bad in arena is that you really want 2/1 for the reasons above, but they can be killed for free by ping.)

High health also tends to help against removal spells, which are a major concern for expensive minions. For example, it's a big deal that Flamestrike+ping does not kill an ogre, unlike a Lord of the Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 15, 2014, 03:54:16 pm
So what does everyone think the new Naxx legendary?

(http://www.gamersheroes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/New-Hearthstone-Card-Baron-Rivendare-932x583.jpg)

It's worth noting that with the exception of Soul of the Forest, every single death rattle card is very good (Abomination probably being the second worst, but that card's still awesome).  So playing it doesn't weaken your deck significantly as you were playing a lot of those cards anyway.  I don't think it's insane, but I think it's fine.  It probably wouldn't get played now, but I think it will with the new Naxx cards that will surely have death rattle.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 15, 2014, 04:35:54 pm
^The main issue with it is that the 1/7 body is pretty worthless and won't kill anything. So to get value out of it, you have to stick a good deathrattle or 2, the play this and trade. Loot Hoarder and Sylvannas rarely stick, but things like Harvest Golem and Cairne would sometimes stick because your opponent doesn't want to bother killing the main body if he can't kill the token as well. The existence of this card may affect that, since you fear leaving Cairne out there to summon 2 Baines. It will also be good with the new Nerubian Egg. It will probably be possible to come up with a deck in which this card is useful especially with all the new deathrattle cards, but you definitely need a lot from the ability to make up for the really weak body.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 15, 2014, 04:41:26 pm
Yeah, it is weak.  Like, imagine having Loot Horder and Cairne on the board, and slamming Baron, and trading off both.  You draw two and get two 4/5s, which is awesome.. but how much better than yeti is it?  You get one more card and have a Baron on board.. and that's practically the best case.  There is no card with stats as weak as a 1/7 for 4 mana that gets played now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 15, 2014, 04:43:30 pm
Speaking of Yeti, I recently started running him in my druid deck, and I can't believe how good he is.  After Innervate and Cairne he's probably the best card in the deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 15, 2014, 05:11:23 pm
I'm not as optimistic, I think Barren is a more-win card that's not going to see play.  He's going to be either a 1/7 Dragonling Mechanic or 1/7 Gnomish Inventor.  You can silence all the Deathrattles and leave him alive.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 15, 2014, 05:16:18 pm
Speaking of Yeti, I recently started running him in my druid deck, and I can't believe how good he is.  After Innervate and Cairne he's probably the best card in the deck.

Yeti is a pretty good base card. So is senjin shieldmasta. Senjin holds up even with more expert cards, while Yeti can be out classed although it holds decently well too.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 15, 2014, 05:18:02 pm
I'm not as optimistic, I think Barren is a more-win card that's not going to see play.  He's going to be either a 1/7 Dragonling Mechanic or 1/7 Gnomish Inventor.  You can silence all the Deathrattles and leave him alive.

I agree. It's  too difficult to get Deathrattes in play with him around. Then again he only cots 4 mana to play, so it's not impossible. It probably even pays off with just 1 Deathrattle doubled.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 15, 2014, 05:29:36 pm
Speaking of Yeti, I recently started running him in my druid deck, and I can't believe how good he is.  After Innervate and Cairne he's probably the best card in the deck.

Yeti is a pretty good base card. So is senjin shieldmasta. Senjin holds up even with more expert cards, while Yeti can be out classed although it holds decently well too.

I've not tried out Senjin in my deck.  I'm already running defender and sunfury protector, so Yeti ends up with taunt a decent amount of the time against aggro decks anyway, and between Yeti/Ancient Watcher/Defender/Sunfury/Keeper I haven't have much of an issue against hunter at all.  Warlock is a little tougher, and probably the reason to play Shieldmasta instead, but I would be much unhappier with Senjin against decks like druid.  Being able to use a Yeti+Hero power to kill a yeti or half of a cairne is huge, being able to straight up kill azure drake is huge, being able to kill 4/5s or 5/5s with a defender buff is huge.  Plus I'm not really playing many Zoo locks recently, it all seems to be hunter, druid, or warrior where I am on the ladder.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 15, 2014, 05:47:49 pm
I'm not as optimistic, I think Barren is a more-win card that's not going to see play.  He's going to be either a 1/7 Dragonling Mechanic or 1/7 Gnomish Inventor.  You can silence all the Deathrattles and leave him alive.

I agree. It's  too difficult to get Deathrattes in play with him around. Then again he only cots 4 mana to play, so it's not impossible. It probably even pays off with just 1 Deathrattle doubled.

If that 1 Deathrattle is Loot Hoarder or Harvest Golem, no, as I explained, that's not a pay off.  1/7 is usually worse than 2/4 and Mechanic and Inventor aren't good enough to see play as it is. 
Even if you stick an unsilenced Cairne and have something to run it into, which is quite a feat, you just get a Yeti + a 1/7.  Which is not that much better than a Yeti even after you jumped through all those hoops.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 15, 2014, 05:59:22 pm
Speaking of Yeti, I recently started running him in my druid deck, and I can't believe how good he is.  After Innervate and Cairne he's probably the best card in the deck.

Yeti is a pretty good base card. So is senjin shieldmasta. Senjin holds up even with more expert cards, while Yeti can be out classed although it holds decently well too.

I've not tried out Senjin in my deck.  I'm already running defender and sunfury protector, so Yeti ends up with taunt a decent amount of the time against aggro decks anyway, and between Yeti/Ancient Watcher/Defender/Sunfury/Keeper I haven't have much of an issue against hunter at all.  Warlock is a little tougher, and probably the reason to play Shieldmasta instead, but I would be much unhappier with Senjin against decks like druid.  Being able to use a Yeti+Hero power to kill a yeti or half of a cairne is huge, being able to straight up kill azure drake is huge, being able to kill 4/5s or 5/5s with a defender buff is huge.  Plus I'm not really playing many Zoo locks recently, it all seems to be hunter, druid, or warrior where I am on the ladder.


If you're running a tempo deck like these Druid decks, Yeti is better because it puts more pressure on and the taunt doesn't matter so much; but if you're playing a more defensive deck like a Priest, Sen'jin is better for the taunt to get into late game, especially since you don't really want to run Defenders in those decks that are less likely to have board presence.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 17, 2014, 09:32:25 am
Played through Shaman, including 2 matches in the Ranked arena with the basic deck (competition isn't fierce, since I'm at rank 24 now...if they have any fancy cards, they beat me...if they don't I seem to win).  Really boring.  It was sorta cute, because most of my wins felt combo-ish.  But the overall strategy seems to be to flood the board with underwhelming things like my totems, and 2/2 taunts and whatnot.  Then cast something like Frostwolf Warlord, or 2x Raid Leader.  Yell "surprise!" and then double the surprise with stuff like Rockbiter Weapon and Windfury on the following turn.  I guess there are some ok cards to sustain me to the point where I yell surprise...but I just don't have fun playing "just barely tread water until I lash out for victory".  Favorite card: Frostwolf Warlord (probably telling that my favorite card isn't even a class-card; i guess Ancestral Healing helped sustain me, but it wasn't fun) Fun level: 3/10

Now onto Paladin...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 17, 2014, 10:31:34 am
I believe iOS iPad version just came out. This is bad news for my free time...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 17, 2014, 10:31:51 am
Maybe worse news for my not-really-meant-to-be-free time
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 17, 2014, 10:32:23 am
Played through Shaman, including 2 matches in the Ranked arena with the basic deck (competition isn't fierce, since I'm at rank 24 now...if they have any fancy cards, they beat me...if they don't I seem to win).  Really boring.  It was sorta cute, because most of my wins felt combo-ish.  But the overall strategy seems to be to flood the board with underwhelming things like my totems, and 2/2 taunts and whatnot.  Then cast something like Frostwolf Warlord, or 2x Raid Leader.  Yell "surprise!" and then double the surprise with stuff like Rockbiter Weapon and Windfury on the following turn.  I guess there are some ok cards to sustain me to the point where I yell surprise...but I just don't have fun playing "just barely tread water until I lash out for victory".  Favorite card: Frostwolf Warlord (probably telling that my favorite card isn't even a class-card; i guess Ancestral Healing helped sustain me, but it wasn't fun) Fun level: 3/10

Now onto Paladin...

Do you have Bloodlust in your deck? That's a good card for building up crappy minions and then winning in one fell swoop.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 17, 2014, 10:33:46 am
Shaman I think is a class that is pretty terrible with only free cards. You don't have any of the overload cards, which are a big strength of the class and really what makes it interesting.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 17, 2014, 11:28:15 am
I did unlock Bloodlust, which makes things more interesting.  I've seen some of the overload cards as well, and pretty much agree with HME.  It was a terrible deck with just the free cards, but I can see cards that exist which would unlock more potential.  Does the style of play change?  Or is it still the sort of "stall-stall-build-stall-BOOM!" style of play?

I appreciate people's comments back on my initial thoughts.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 17, 2014, 12:47:13 pm
I did unlock Bloodlust, which makes things more interesting.  I've seen some of the overload cards as well, and pretty much agree with HME.  It was a terrible deck with just the free cards, but I can see cards that exist which would unlock more potential.  Does the style of play change?  Or is it still the sort of "stall-stall-build-stall-BOOM!" style of play?

I appreciate people's comments back on my initial thoughts.

Lashing out in one big turn is one way to try and win with Shaman for sure, but there are many possible plays since he has a lot of various cards that do different things. His field wipe is strong, although a bit random, and the card that summons two 2/3's is great (Forgot the name right now).

To be honest Shaman is a class I've played less, so I'm sort of BSing right now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 17, 2014, 01:05:40 pm
I did unlock Bloodlust, which makes things more interesting.  I've seen some of the overload cards as well, and pretty much agree with HME.  It was a terrible deck with just the free cards, but I can see cards that exist which would unlock more potential.  Does the style of play change?  Or is it still the sort of "stall-stall-build-stall-BOOM!" style of play?

I appreciate people's comments back on my initial thoughts.

Lashing out in one big turn is one way to try and win with Shaman for sure, but there are many possible plays since he has a lot of various cards that do different things. His field wipe is strong, although a bit random, and the card that summons two 2/3's is great (Forgot the name right now).

To be honest Shaman is a class I've played less, so I'm sort of BSing right now.

I think the card you are thinking of is Feral Wolves (summon two 2/3s with taunt, overload (2)). And yes that card is great.

The Shaman specific elementals are really great cards too. Fire Elemental gives you 3 damage when you summon it one of the best battlecries in the game, Earth Elemental is 7/8 taunt for 5 mana (3 overload), and the Unbound Elemental gets +1/+1 per overload card you play, which isn't great, but it's a 2/4 that costs 3 so it's still pretty good. Shaman is very card dependent though, and a lot of it is about knowing when to play your cards. You can really screw yourself by playing an overload card when it prevents you from doing anything on your next turn. It's a lot more RNG based too as some of the totems are a lot more useful in certain situations than others (sometimes you really want that taunt, sometimes you really want +1 Spell power, sometimes you really want the Healing totem). It's probably a better class to play once you've built your library up a bit, but it is an interesting one.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 17, 2014, 01:10:38 pm
I did unlock Bloodlust, which makes things more interesting.  I've seen some of the overload cards as well, and pretty much agree with HME.  It was a terrible deck with just the free cards, but I can see cards that exist which would unlock more potential.  Does the style of play change?  Or is it still the sort of "stall-stall-build-stall-BOOM!" style of play?

I appreciate people's comments back on my initial thoughts.

Shaman has a lot of burst finish potential with Bloodlust or more commonly Windfury, but I wouldn't call it "stall-stall-build-stall-BOOM". Overload lets you get a tempo advantage which you can hopefully use to build a board. If you have the right stuff out, you can burst finish, but for the most part you're really building the board to get value from your hero power not just to stall for some combo. I have played some combo Shaman deck where I do actually just stall to get Alexstrasza into Leeroy + Rockbiter + Windfury, but I found that weaker than just playing board control with 1 Windfury in the deck for the potential to burst out a win without wasting too many cards on win condition. Apparently Doomhammer is also a popular win condition, since early charges can be used for board control, and then you can use Rockbiter to hit him in the face for 10 damage + whatever your board can do, but I don't have Doomhammer, so I stick with Windfury.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 18, 2014, 06:00:17 am
My impression is that most high level constructed decks have ways to deal lots of damage from the hand. Hunters get Unleash + Leeroy, Rogues get Cold Blood + Eviscerate + Deadly Poison + Blade Flurry, Druids get Force of Nature + Savage Roar, Warlocks get Soulfire, Warriors get Grommash + Whirlwind, and Shamans get Rockbiter + Windfury. Arguably, Avenging Wrath for Paladins, but that's more of a stretch.

It shouldn't be that surprising, since damage this turn is a lot better than damage next turn. I guess the point I'm making is that very few decks are stall until the combo. Most are, play some creatures, get some board position, then if I draw my combo I'll use it to win decisively.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on April 18, 2014, 06:08:15 am
That is more like what my experience is too. Although I'm not too highly ranked in constructed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 18, 2014, 10:25:17 am
I just got Hearthstone on iPad.  I have never played it before.  I'm afraid. (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/04/07/time)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 18, 2014, 10:58:38 am
I just got Hearthstone on iPad.  I have never played it before.  I'm afraid. (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/04/07/time)

KingZog3#1700

I'm super pro. Top notch with all the golden cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on April 18, 2014, 11:33:26 am
I just got Hearthstone on iPad.  I have never played it before.  I'm afraid. (http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/04/07/time)

I just tried it on iPad. I think I'll play it on my PC more. Although playing in bed and on the subway sounds pretty nice.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 18, 2014, 12:21:49 pm
My impression is that most high level constructed decks have ways to deal lots of damage from the hand. Hunters get Unleash + Leeroy, Rogues get Cold Blood + Eviscerate + Deadly Poison + Blade Flurry, Druids get Force of Nature + Savage Roar, Warlocks get Soulfire, Warriors get Grommash + Whirlwind, and Shamans get Rockbiter + Windfury. Arguably, Avenging Wrath for Paladins, but that's more of a stretch.

It shouldn't be that surprising, since damage this turn is a lot better than damage next turn. I guess the point I'm making is that very few decks are stall until the combo. Most are, play some creatures, get some board position, then if I draw my combo I'll use it to win decisively.
The Rogue finisher is usually Lerooy + some combo of Shadowsteps and/or Cold Bloods. Warlocks sometimes go as big as Leeroy + Power Overwhelming + Faceless (for 20 damage + whatever Soulfires you have). Warriors can get to 12 with Grommash + Taskmaster or Inner Rage.

Generally I think these combos are for mid-range decks. Aggressive tempo decks don't really need a finishing combo either as they just overwhelm with minions. Control decks can just defend while the other deck burns out and then win on big minions. The mid-range decks need that burst to finish off the control decks. People do also run them in control decks, but that's a bit questionable to me as you can end up wasting a lot of cards on win condition that you can't use for control, and then you get overrun by aggro with half your hand wasted on win condition cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 18, 2014, 02:26:21 pm
So, I've played about 8 straight games against midrange hunter.  I'm playing watcher druid, and I think the matchup is *okay*, but I'm looking for something better until all these stupid hunters die away.  Deadly shot is a huge pain.

Anyone got any suggestions?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 18, 2014, 03:37:00 pm
^There's no great way to play around deadly shot. Ideally you want a big Taunt with small minions on the side to give miss chance, but you don't really want too many small minions, because then they can Hunter's Mark your taunt and UTH you. So I think your best bet is just accepting they have Assassinate in their deck. That can't be the only reason you're losing, as other decks have multiple hard removal cards. Maybe your deck needs more heal or Ooze? I think you'd be hard-pressed to find another deck that matches up better against Hunter than Watcher Druid.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 18, 2014, 04:00:44 pm
I should really just cut Ysera.  She's not that good right now.. but she's so much fun!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 18, 2014, 04:27:16 pm
I noticed a crazy amount of Hunter's too. I'm playing a control-priest deck, and it seems to work out pretty nicely. Hunters only have 2 Deadly Shot's, so you just need to be able to play enough threatening creatures at various stages of the game. Also UTH is not great against my deck as I rarely have that many creatures out since they all get traded as soon as they can.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 19, 2014, 12:56:29 pm
I'm theory#1157.  Add me!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 19, 2014, 01:34:48 pm
I scrapped my Ancient Watcher druid deck, was just getting overrun by zoo and hunter rush too easily, I've put in more spells instead and finally got into lvl 10 after a whole ton of games in rank 11 and 12.
I do think the zoo deck may be worse than the Hunter rush. It is absolutely more reliable and super quick. I admit I made a hunter rush deck for a quick push up the ladder and have made a zoo deck to mix things up too- when it works it is just lethal. I also quite like the warrior control deck, but went of it after I played one game where I mulligan-ed (!) into a hand of 9 - 8 - 8 and then drew in first two turns, a 7 and another 9. all my legendaries :( it was game over
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 19, 2014, 02:03:24 pm
I'm usually the kind of person who plays these games more than builds decks for them. I like arena a lot, and I crib from better deckbuilders for constructed. But I think I've found something good that I haven't seen anyone else playing... Now I just need to get 2and copies of the cards I'm missing and shoot straight to legendary rank! My super secret tech will be the wave of the future!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 19, 2014, 02:14:09 pm
I might have the cards; why don't let me try it out for you?  ;)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 19, 2014, 04:43:28 pm
I'm usually the kind of person who plays these games more than builds decks for them. I like arena a lot, and I crib from better deckbuilders for constructed. But I think I've found something good that I haven't seen anyone else playing... Now I just need to get 2and copies of the cards I'm missing and shoot straight to legendary rank! My super secret tech will be the wave of the future!
I do this, but it always turns out the thing I'm making up is after its time or before its time.  I was playing miracle rogue before miracle rogue was actually decent in the meta, you can ask HME.


I don't run deadly shot in midrange hunter and find a second copy questionable, so I'm surprised that's coming up a lot.  The inverse of HME's suggestion for making a Deadly Shot miss is, instead of taunt, stealth.   I like Worgen Infiltrator in Druid in general (Roar synergy, better than Squire against zoo's Raptors), and it happens to counter Deadly Shot pretty well, if it's sitting there waiting for a Hyena to kill your opponent can't use Deadly Shot safely until you cash the worgen in. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 19, 2014, 04:44:33 pm
I'm theory#1157.  Add me!
Theory Eleven Fifty-Seven.  In bookstores today.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 21, 2014, 12:16:41 pm
More of shraeye's musings...

I was interested in Rogue, the idea of the Combo cards sounded so cool.  But basic Rogue was sucking, hard.  Terribly.  I couldn't even finish my set of fights agaisnt the crappy normal-AI.  I tweaked the deck with the cards I'd won thusfar, and still didn't like it.  Without the combos, it just feels like a crappy version of the Warrior.  Favorite card: Sap? Fan of knives?  I disliked them both, but perhaps less than I disliked others.  Fun level: 0/10
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 21, 2014, 01:07:25 pm
Sent out a bunch of friend requests.

Kirian#1720

----

Finally got a 4-win arena with a Paladin yesterday and today, but it's like my fifth arena run.  Went 3-0 to start, but then just wasn't getting board control in the last few matches.  Exactly 0 Epic/Legendary cards drafted. :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 21, 2014, 01:21:06 pm
More of shraeye's musings...

I was interested in Rogue, the idea of the Combo cards sounded so cool.  But basic Rogue was sucking, hard.  Terribly.  I couldn't even finish my set of fights agaisnt the crappy normal-AI.  I tweaked the deck with the cards I'd won thusfar, and still didn't like it.  Without the combos, it just feels like a crappy version of the Warrior.  Favorite card: Sap? Fan of knives?  I disliked them both, but perhaps less than I disliked others.  Fun level: 0/10

Most of the basic decks just aren't that much fun. Play against people, complete quests and get some new cards. Even just a few new ones will added a lot of strength to your decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 21, 2014, 01:41:16 pm
Imo, the best classes with starting cards are Mage, Hunter, Paladin, Shaman, roughly in that order. Meanwhile Rogue and Warlock are both awful with just starting cards.

The game gets a lot better when you unlock some of the good neutral commons, and can start building decently strong decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 21, 2014, 02:02:24 pm
I thought you were supposed to level each hero up to level 10 by fighting the expert AI's?  Am I doing it wrong? 

Currently I have a mage that I leveled to 10 and has a Basic Deck that can deal with the expert AI's fine, and a priest that's getting to level 10 by losing to the basic AI's over and over again.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 21, 2014, 02:14:24 pm
I thought you were supposed to level each hero up to level 10 by fighting the expert AI's?  Am I doing it wrong? 

Currently I have a mage that I leveled to 10 and has a Basic Deck that can deal with the expert AI's fine, and a priest that's getting to level 10 by losing to the basic AI's over and over again.

You level up just by playing. You level up even faster by playing people. And I think even the casual match finder tries to find someone of roughly equal level (I guess it does it by how many cards you have? And win/lose ratio?) so that you don't get murdered by crazy strong decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 21, 2014, 02:17:35 pm
You get better exp for beating real people, and you'll usually be matched against people with similarly bad decks early on. That being said, you get 100 gold for beating all expert AI, so it's worth playing them too.

PPE: the matching in unranked is done by some internal Elo rating if I remember correctly, but I'm guessing there's also some accounting for # of games played.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 21, 2014, 06:15:09 pm
Quite smartly, you get xp scaling on length of games (there may be other factors, I'm sure there are i.e. vs basic ai, expert ai, real people, friends, real people ranked, etc.) You certainly don't have to play against the expert AI to get to lvl 10.
This is a simple way to stop people quitting games vs friends to lvl up quickly!

@Shraeye
I agree, that Rogue is essentially unplayable without any extra cards as there are no combo cards in basic. If you want to see extra cards, another way is to do arenas, though you do risk kinda wasting the gold if you arena without any experience, but you always get a pack.

@Kirian
4 wins is quite respectable in your first bunch of arenas, seems harsh not to even have seen an epic yet! Legendaries can be quite rare. Paladins are probably my strongest char in arena, because the character commons are all great (Truesilver, Consecration are both amazing) Aldor Peacekeeper and the Divine shield giving guy are also very strong.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 21, 2014, 06:56:29 pm
Oh I've seen epics and legendaries, just none in this particular draft.

Drafted a Mage this time.  Out of 90 cards seen, not a single one was Fireball, Frostbolt, Flamestrike, or Pyroblast.  Just... nothing.

Edit:  Oh, no Polymorph either.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 21, 2014, 08:37:04 pm
Oh I've seen epics and legendaries, just none in this particular draft.

Drafted a Mage this time.  Out of 90 cards seen, not a single one was Fireball, Frostbolt, Flamestrike, or Pyroblast.  Just... nothing.

Edit:  Oh, no Polymorph either.

There's still Blizzard! I also got a no firball, polymorph or pyroblast once. I did get Flamestrike though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 21, 2014, 08:49:21 pm
oh shit, did you add me on hearthstone shraeye? Your name reminded me of a really annoying guy that i removed from my friends list named schratz or something so i didn't breathe a word to you
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 21, 2014, 08:52:15 pm
oh shit, did you add me on hearthstone shraeye? Your name reminded me of a really annoying guy that i removed from my friends list named schratz or something so i didn't breathe a word to you

Did you add me? KingZog3#1700
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 21, 2014, 08:53:59 pm
Oh I've seen epics and legendaries, just none in this particular draft.

Drafted a Mage this time.  Out of 90 cards seen, not a single one was Fireball, Frostbolt, Flamestrike, or Pyroblast.  Just... nothing.

Edit:  Oh, no Polymorph either.

There's still Blizzard! I also got a no firball, polymorph or pyroblast once. I did get Flamestrike though.

No Blizzard either.  No direct damage spells.  A couple of Cones of Cold.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 21, 2014, 09:45:20 pm
oh shit, did you add me on hearthstone shraeye? Your name reminded me of a really annoying guy that i removed from my friends list named schratz or something so i didn't breathe a word to you
Yeah man; I'm way cooler than schratz.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 22, 2014, 12:30:54 am
The real question is, how many Water Elementals? I feel strongly that Water Elemental is the best Mage common, but no one seems to lament missing it when they talk about their luckless drafts.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 22, 2014, 12:32:37 am
The real question is, how many Water Elementals? I feel strongly that Water Elemental is the best Mage common, but no one seems to lament missing it when they talk about their luckless drafts.

I believe one, though I don't remember for certain.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 22, 2014, 12:33:27 am
I don't know about best Mage common, but after a couple runs I'd have to agree that Water Elemental is amazing. I'd rate Poly over Water Elemental over Flamestrike, but really all 3 of those are super good.

Edit: Actually, I think I'd rate Flamestrike > Water Elemental. They're both better in different situations, but Flamestrike is better more often.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 22, 2014, 12:51:36 am
I don't know about best Mage common, but after a couple runs I'd have to agree that Water Elemental is amazing. I'd rate Poly over Water Elemental over Flamestrike, but really all 3 of those are super good.

Edit: Actually, I think I'd rate Flamestrike > Water Elemental. They're both better in different situations, but Flamestrike is better more often.

Water Elemental is so much more consistent, though. Some games Flamestrike is great, some games it's a 7 mana Shadowbolt.

Also Flamestrike is better against worse players -- Water Elemental is just always good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 22, 2014, 08:56:54 am
Imo, the best classes with starting cards are Mage, Hunter, Paladin, Shaman, roughly in that order. Meanwhile Rogue and Warlock are both awful with just starting cards.
Yea,, I just played Paladin.  It was really fun.  Blessing of Light, Hand of Protection, Hammer of Wrath.  Of of these were super-fun cards. Fun level: 9/10.

I may go through just the Hunter, and then try out Arena.  Maybe I'll give Priest a try too.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 22, 2014, 08:59:26 am
I don't know about best Mage common, but after a couple runs I'd have to agree that Water Elemental is amazing. I'd rate Poly over Water Elemental over Flamestrike, but really all 3 of those are super good.

Edit: Actually, I think I'd rate Flamestrike > Water Elemental. They're both better in different situations, but Flamestrike is better more often.

Water Elemental is so much more consistent, though. Some games Flamestrike is great, some games it's a 7 mana Shadowbolt.

Also Flamestrike is better against worse players -- Water Elemental is just always good.

Water elemental is very good. But the cheapness of Fireball is pretty hard to beat. For 4 mana you can deal with nearly any tough minion, especially in the arena. I had one Mage draft with 4 Fireballs. It was an easy couple of wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 22, 2014, 01:31:51 pm
4 fireballs is awesome, I think I had 4 polys once and the sheer additional annoyance to the opponent makes Poly better I think! Water Elemental is almost always a must choose though Flamestrike wins games straight out if your opponent over commits, and saves games if you're just that bit behind. The only better thing is the next Flamestrike after your opponent plays out a whole extra bunch of things having seen the first flamestrike!
How did the no good spells run go Kirian? Sometimes it just sucks and you get trounced, them's the breaks!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 22, 2014, 01:43:08 pm
4 fireballs is awesome, I think I had 4 polys once and the sheer additional annoyance to the opponent makes Poly better I think! Water Elemental is almost always a must choose though Flamestrike wins games straight out if your opponent over commits, and saves games if you're just that bit behind. The only better thing is the next Flamestrike after your opponent plays out a whole extra bunch of things having seen the first flamestrike!
How did the no good spells run go Kirian? Sometimes it just sucks and you get trounced, them's the breaks!

2-3.  The main problem, I think, was actually lack of ability to follow up with damage after taking care of minor threats.  I couldn't pile damage on like I do with my constructed mage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 22, 2014, 02:22:08 pm
Imo, the best classes with starting cards are Mage, Hunter, Paladin, Shaman, roughly in that order. Meanwhile Rogue and Warlock are both awful with just starting cards.

The game gets a lot better when you unlock some of the good neutral commons, and can start building decently strong decks.

I'm not sure Rogue is so awful with just starting cards. You still have the great early game strength of Backstab, Deadly Poision and Hero Power. And Sprint and Assassin's Blade are pretty good late game for basic cards. Clearly you can't play Miracle Rogue, but if you like tempo-based play, basic Rogue is pretty good.

The real question is, how many Water Elementals? I feel strongly that Water Elemental is the best Mage common, but no one seems to lament missing it when they talk about their luckless drafts.

The thing with Water Elemental is it's not so much better than Sen'jin or Yeti. So you can get none but not really miss it if you get other quality 4-drops. There's nothing that really replaces Flamestrike.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 23, 2014, 10:05:11 am
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 23, 2014, 12:04:48 pm
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.

That's like a suped up version of a druid arena game I just drafted. I had so many strong taunters (2 Senjin, 1 Druid of the Claw, 1 Ironbark Protector, plus 1 Mark of the Wild and 2 Marks of Nature), but much less Swipes (I don't think I had any). I did have some good surprise cards (2 Keeper of the Grove, 3 Savage Roars, Claw, Wrath, Starfall) and I had 2 Innervates. The rest was mostly a mishmash of decent, but not great, minions, with the exception of an Ancient of Lore. I got to 5 wins before I got knocked out, which was a little disappointing, but in retrospect I would draft less Savage Roars (3 is overkill, it seems, they often weren't the best way to get some more damage on the table). Anyhow yes, lots of taunt is strong in Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 23, 2014, 05:13:16 pm
Sent out a bunch of friend requests.

Kirian#1720

Now that I've started playing again, I just did the same.
mikohoy#1464
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on April 23, 2014, 06:06:20 pm
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/fireside-gatherings/

Such a dumb idea to put this at the same time as Magic pre-release. No way will I be able to organize time to play both, and of course I am chosing MTG.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 23, 2014, 06:13:15 pm
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/fireside-gatherings/

Such a dumb idea to put this at the same time as Magic pre-release. No way will I be able to organize time to play both, and of course I am chosing MTG.

I don't think it's a one time thing.. I thought that was just the release date of that feature.

(And I am excited for the magic prerelease as well.  Woohoo new cards!!)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 23, 2014, 10:37:13 pm
I think the kind of players that are dropping lots of money on HS and the kind that drop lots of money on MtG are different enough that it's not a bad call to conflict with the prerelease day.  MtG players play Hearthstone free to play because they want money spent to be an "investment".  Hearthstone players won't buy MtG cards because they seem overpriced by comparison.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 24, 2014, 03:44:56 am
ashersky #1470

I hate poly.  I had the 2/7 minion that gains attack per damage up to 2/28...then sheep.

I wish you could break it, like in WOW.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 24, 2014, 08:10:07 am
ashersky #1470

I hate poly.  I had the 2/7 minion that gains attack per damage up to 2/28...then sheep.

I wish you could break it, like in WOW.

Eggs, meet Basket. Basket, meet Eggs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on April 24, 2014, 10:24:41 am
ashersky #1470

I hate poly.  I had the 2/7 minion that gains attack per damage up to 2/28...then sheep.

I wish you could break it, like in WOW.

Eggs, meet Basket. Basket, meet Eggs.
Good advice for play, true, but I think one reason that Priest is weak is that its buffing is incredibly vulnerable to Polymorph and Hex.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on April 24, 2014, 10:45:12 am
And silences (especially Battlecy silences) will hurt so much.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 24, 2014, 11:24:35 am
I want Counterspell so bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 11:39:02 am
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 24, 2014, 02:02:37 pm
ashersky #1470

I hate poly.  I had the 2/7 minion that gains attack per damage up to 2/28...then sheep.

I wish you could break it, like in WOW.

Eggs, meet Basket. Basket, meet Eggs.
Good advice for play, true, but I think one reason that Priest is weak is that its buffing is incredibly vulnerable to Polymorph and Hex.
In arena or play mode?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 24, 2014, 02:09:17 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 02:24:00 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 24, 2014, 02:30:36 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 02:56:33 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.

Thats true. I know I've been caught by this just because I couldn't afford to risk a valuable minion in case it was a vaporise. But like, it might as well be a vaporise at that point right? I'd act the same and it would actually kill a minion.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 24, 2014, 03:05:22 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.

Thats true. I know I've been caught by this just because I couldn't afford to risk a valuable minion in case it was a vaporise. But like, it might as well be a vaporise at that point right? I'd act the same and it would actually kill a minion.

But it also might be something like Mirror Image so they summon a crappy minion instead of the one that would benefit them most to try and trigger it. And if they think it is Vapourize they might delay the valuable minions attack a turn to summon something else that can trigger the Vapourize. They also might cast a spell to try and see if its Counterspell. There's a few different things they might do to try and work out what it is depending on board position that you can use to your advantage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 03:06:48 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.

Thats true. I know I've been caught by this just because I couldn't afford to risk a valuable minion in case it was a vaporise. But like, it might as well be a vaporise at that point right? I'd act the same and it would actually kill a minion.

But it also might be something like Mirror Image so they summon a crappy minion instead of the one that would benefit them most to try and trigger it. And if they think it is Vapourize they might delay the valuable minions attack a turn to summon something else that can trigger the Vapourize. They also might cast a spell to try and see if its Counterspell. There's a few different things they might do to try and work out what it is depending on board position that you can use to your advantage.

Yes, but the value of actually having the other Secrets is probably better than trying to trick your opponent.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 24, 2014, 03:26:03 pm
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.

That's like a suped up version of a druid arena game I just drafted. I had so many strong taunters (2 Senjin, 1 Druid of the Claw, 1 Ironbark Protector, plus 1 Mark of the Wild and 2 Marks of Nature), but much less Swipes (I don't think I had any). I did have some good surprise cards (2 Keeper of the Grove, 3 Savage Roars, Claw, Wrath, Starfall) and I had 2 Innervates. The rest was mostly a mishmash of decent, but not great, minions, with the exception of an Ancient of Lore. I got to 5 wins before I got knocked out, which was a little disappointing, but in retrospect I would draft less Savage Roars (3 is overkill, it seems, they often weren't the best way to get some more damage on the table). Anyhow yes, lots of taunt is strong in Arena.

aaaaaand 3 wins with this.

Perhaps I just... suck?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 24, 2014, 03:28:12 pm
Nah, you probably just had 3 too many Savage Roars.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 03:29:37 pm
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.

That's like a suped up version of a druid arena game I just drafted. I had so many strong taunters (2 Senjin, 1 Druid of the Claw, 1 Ironbark Protector, plus 1 Mark of the Wild and 2 Marks of Nature), but much less Swipes (I don't think I had any). I did have some good surprise cards (2 Keeper of the Grove, 3 Savage Roars, Claw, Wrath, Starfall) and I had 2 Innervates. The rest was mostly a mishmash of decent, but not great, minions, with the exception of an Ancient of Lore. I got to 5 wins before I got knocked out, which was a little disappointing, but in retrospect I would draft less Savage Roars (3 is overkill, it seems, they often weren't the best way to get some more damage on the table). Anyhow yes, lots of taunt is strong in Arena.

aaaaaand 3 wins with this.

Perhaps I just... suck?

My average wins in the arena is 3-4. Its very related to having a good mana curve, not just getting the best cards. I've passed up good cards for cards that have a certain cost, and those are the times I usually score 5+ wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 24, 2014, 03:54:19 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.

Thats true. I know I've been caught by this just because I couldn't afford to risk a valuable minion in case it was a vaporise. But like, it might as well be a vaporise at that point right? I'd act the same and it would actually kill a minion.

But it also might be something like Mirror Image so they summon a crappy minion instead of the one that would benefit them most to try and trigger it. And if they think it is Vapourize they might delay the valuable minions attack a turn to summon something else that can trigger the Vapourize. They also might cast a spell to try and see if its Counterspell. There's a few different things they might do to try and work out what it is depending on board position that you can use to your advantage.

Yes, but the value of actually having the other Secrets is probably better than trying to trick your opponent.

Well no argument there, but that assumes you have those secrets. (which I only have some of)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 04:01:50 pm
I want Counterspell so bad.

Counterspell is awesome. I got a golden one :) Although I don't play Mage, so it just sits in my collection.

It's so good. Easily the best mage secret.

It makes up up for the fact that Ice Barrier is terrible. I think it's worse than the Paladin Secrets, and those secrets can whiff so badly.

The only good thing about Ice Barrier is that people might think that it's some other secret and play suboptimally to try and reveal it.

Thats true. I know I've been caught by this just because I couldn't afford to risk a valuable minion in case it was a vaporise. But like, it might as well be a vaporise at that point right? I'd act the same and it would actually kill a minion.

But it also might be something like Mirror Image so they summon a crappy minion instead of the one that would benefit them most to try and trigger it. And if they think it is Vapourize they might delay the valuable minions attack a turn to summon something else that can trigger the Vapourize. They also might cast a spell to try and see if its Counterspell. There's a few different things they might do to try and work out what it is depending on board position that you can use to your advantage.

Yes, but the value of actually having the other Secrets is probably better than trying to trick your opponent.

Well no argument there, but that assumes you have those secrets. (which I only have some of)

Yeah, I was talking purely theoretical :P Of course in practice you may not have them all. I don't either.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on April 24, 2014, 04:05:08 pm

My average wins in the arena is 3-4. Its very related to having a good mana curve, not just getting the best cards. I've passed up good cards for cards that have a certain cost, and those are the times I usually score 5+ wins.

This is very true, awesome cards is part of it of course, but a (very) healthy dose of low cost minions is super important, and best if they are the decent ones (Argent Squire, Worgen Infiltrator, Amani Berserker, Fairie Dragon, Lucky Mad bombers, Knife Juggler etc.) You then need the power cards later on and to get max value.
Otherwise you just take too much damage too early if you don't draw a early clearer (lightning storm, consecration, holy nova)

What is SSC I can't figure it out!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 24, 2014, 04:11:38 pm

My average wins in the arena is 3-4. Its very related to having a good mana curve, not just getting the best cards. I've passed up good cards for cards that have a certain cost, and those are the times I usually score 5+ wins.

This is very true, awesome cards is part of it of course, but a (very) healthy dose of low cost minions is super important, and best if they are the decent ones (Argent Squire, Worgen Infiltrator, Amani Berserker, Fairie Dragon, Lucky Mad bombers, Knife Juggler etc.) You then need the power cards later on and to get max value.
Otherwise you just take too much damage too early if you don't draw a early clearer (lightning storm, consecration, holy nova)

What is SSC I can't figure it out!

Shattered Sun Cleric

Edit:  Though a long, long time ago--say, 2007--it was Serpentshrine Cavern...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 24, 2014, 04:23:07 pm
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.

That's like a suped up version of a druid arena game I just drafted. I had so many strong taunters (2 Senjin, 1 Druid of the Claw, 1 Ironbark Protector, plus 1 Mark of the Wild and 2 Marks of Nature), but much less Swipes (I don't think I had any). I did have some good surprise cards (2 Keeper of the Grove, 3 Savage Roars, Claw, Wrath, Starfall) and I had 2 Innervates. The rest was mostly a mishmash of decent, but not great, minions, with the exception of an Ancient of Lore. I got to 5 wins before I got knocked out, which was a little disappointing, but in retrospect I would draft less Savage Roars (3 is overkill, it seems, they often weren't the best way to get some more damage on the table). Anyhow yes, lots of taunt is strong in Arena.

aaaaaand 3 wins with this.

Perhaps I just... suck?

You're missing the best Druid card: Innervate. Innervate is just such a killer card. Turn 2 Yeti/Senjin or turn 3 VentureCo/DotC are just such blowouts that its really hard for your opponent to ever really get back in it.

But that said, your deck has so much taunt and board clear that it seems hard to imagine you just getting run over, and the AoWs should be good solid high-end creatures, so there has to be some bad luck or misplay in there. Like you said, you used up all your luck in the draft... How did the losses actually go?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 24, 2014, 04:36:21 pm
OK, this time I used up all my luck just in the draft.  Druid with:

4x Swipe
2x Ancient of War
2x Druid of the Claw
2x SSC
2x Shieldmasta

I'll just assume all my draws will be the worst possible.  I'm not sure I even want to play this yet...

Edit:  OK, first game I drew three of the Swipes... I'll take it.

That's like a suped up version of a druid arena game I just drafted. I had so many strong taunters (2 Senjin, 1 Druid of the Claw, 1 Ironbark Protector, plus 1 Mark of the Wild and 2 Marks of Nature), but much less Swipes (I don't think I had any). I did have some good surprise cards (2 Keeper of the Grove, 3 Savage Roars, Claw, Wrath, Starfall) and I had 2 Innervates. The rest was mostly a mishmash of decent, but not great, minions, with the exception of an Ancient of Lore. I got to 5 wins before I got knocked out, which was a little disappointing, but in retrospect I would draft less Savage Roars (3 is overkill, it seems, they often weren't the best way to get some more damage on the table). Anyhow yes, lots of taunt is strong in Arena.

aaaaaand 3 wins with this.

Perhaps I just... suck?

You're missing the best Druid card: Innervate. Innervate is just such a killer card. Turn 2 Yeti/Senjin or turn 3 VentureCo/DotC are just such blowouts that its really hard for your opponent to ever really get back in it.

But that said, your deck has so much taunt and board clear that it seems hard to imagine you just getting run over, and the AoWs should be good solid high-end creatures, so there has to be some bad luck or misplay in there. Like you said, you used up all your luck in the draft... How did the losses actually go?

Well, I didn't actually get any of the AoWs in play until Game 4 of 6, I think, and of course they were near-immediate removal targets.

I don't remember the first loss.  The second was against a paladin who got Light's Justice out and a ton of other minions, and I couldn't draw my Swipes and get the board clear.  The last was up against a Rogue... I was up 23-8, with 8 damage on the table, but his Sprint the previous turn allowed him to dump a ton of minions, then a Frostwolf Warlord, while I topdecked a Dire Wolf Alpha or something.  Next turn, he plays Stormwind Knight (charge and shield), attack, Shadowstep, and Knight again... and I topdecked an Ironbeak Owl.  It had been going really well up to that point, then nothing.

The rogue was able to basically rip through all of my taunts, using spell combos and saps, but I was able to keep things together mostly since he was spending all his energy on that.  I think it may have been a case where he just got really lucky on the Sprint.

The 3 wins I had were facerolls, though.  I feel bad for the mage that, as I recall, didn't actually damage me.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 24, 2014, 04:41:17 pm
Approxiamtely this deck, with two extra Swipes.  I know I'm missing something though.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/druid#42:1;95:1;131:1;138:1;149:2;242:2;282:1;305:2;326:2;346:1;389:1;422:1;434:2;473:1;475:1;500:1;532:1;577:1;587:2;620:2;648:1;
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 24, 2014, 05:26:49 pm
An aggressive Paladin with good draws is really tough to beat. I'd think you'd stand a chance with all the Swipes and Sen'jin's you'd think you'd have something in time to not die. And if a Rogue can Sprint without dying in the next 2 turns, it's tough to beat so much card advantage. The downside to Sprint is that you have literally no board impact on turn 7, so you actually have to be in a pretty good board position to get it off.

There may have been some misplays on your part which are often hard to catch, since if you don't recognize them in time to play them, you usually don't see them later, and the impact is not immediately noticeable, so I can't comment on that, and I don't know what the other options were, but here are some comments on your draft:
 - Wild Growth has a place in ramp Druids, which apparently are popular again, but it's pretty bad in arena. It's hard to get your curve off just right that you're really getting enough value for spending a card and your chance to impact the board on turn 2.
 - 2x Mark of Nature almost has to be wrong. One, maybe. But 2? Paying 3 mana to add 4 stats to a minion is for the most part pretty unreasonable. 4 stats costs 2 mana and 0 cards (e.g. Yeti vs Raptor)
 - Mogushan Warden is bad. Maybe playable if you're aggro and use it to get an extra hit out of a couple small minions, but it's going to be card disadvantage.
 - Priestess of Elune is one of the worst cards in the game. I have to assume the other choices were Wisp and Grimscale Oracle or something.

Despite having 2 Ancients of War, you really lack good high-end stuff. You have no card draw and only 2 reasonably good big minions, so you have to be a little aggressive. Either you needed to draft that War Golem or other semi-weak big guy you passed on, or you need to have some moment where you turn on the kill switch and start hitting face. I would imagine this deck wants to get a good advantage around turn 4 with the strong turn 4 plays, put up a taunt, and start sending Swipes, Cat Druids, and Marks of Nature to the face before you run out of cards. I suspect running out of steam is what happened in your Rogue loss.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 24, 2014, 05:49:56 pm
Ugh, at 4-0 in arena, and I just fought the most ridiculous Paladin as Druid. I admittedly didn't have a great hand, but long story short was that he played Aldor turn 3, used Blessing on turn 4, then had 2 Consecrates and 2 Truesilvers...Basically, I managed a lot of 1 for 1s, and one or two 2 for 1s, but there was just nothing I could do after I lost board presence.

For Kirian's deck, I think your mana curve is a bit deceptive. You want 2 and 3 drops for turns 2 and 3 in which you have no board and your opponent likely has no board either. So, Dire Wolf on turn 2 isn't that great. Ironbeak isn't a card you drop turn 2 either, and Mark of Nature requires you to have something in play already. This means the only 2 drop you'll feel good about dropping turn 2 is Knife Juggler. Similarly, if you take out the 2 Mark of Natures, then you have four 3 drops you can probably play on turn 3.

It's not required to have early presence, and with that many Swipes you want to play a longer game anyways, but it seems like your deck has difficulty getting board control until around turn 4/5, and if you have to spend your turn 4 or turn 5 playing Swipe, then you don't have mana to play much else, meaning your opponent gets to play the first card on the board...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 24, 2014, 08:55:43 pm
- Mogushan Warden is bad. Maybe playable if you're aggro and use it to get an extra hit out of a couple small minions, but it's going to be card disadvantage.
 - Priestess of Elune is one of the worst cards in the game. I have to assume the other choices were Wisp and Grimscale Oracle or something.

Yeah.  On both of these, the other choices were worse, at least according to IV.  I did get some use out of the Warden, oddly, but it was a matter of it being the only playable card when I had it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 24, 2014, 10:17:55 pm
Ice Barrier and Ice Block are the best mage secrets.  I'm sorry you guys had to find out like this.


Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.  Those kinds of decks are good, about as good as freeze mage, though with a different matchup spread.

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are terrible in normally styled decks, but they do excellent in freeze mage decks and are good enough to warrant inclusion.  So since Ice Barrier and Ice Block actually show up in a top archetype, they're the best secrets, unless you're using some sort of manner of speculating about a future meta where the other secrets are good.

Freeze Mage doesn't show up on ladder all that much because it's very specialized.  It's a lot more useful in the best of 3 format, where you can consistently get it to face zoo, its specialty.  My freeze mage deck had the highest winrate at the university tournament I won and I plan on playing freeze mage again at a tournament this weekend.



Vaporize is just the pits all around.  It's a delayed deadly shot that always misses
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 24, 2014, 11:00:55 pm
Ice Barrier and Ice Block are the best mage secrets.  I'm sorry you guys had to find out like this.


Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.  Those kinds of decks are good, about as good as freeze mage, though with a different matchup spread.

Ice Barrier and Ice Block are terrible in normally styled decks, but they do excellent in freeze mage decks and are good enough to warrant inclusion.  So since Ice Barrier and Ice Block actually show up in a top archetype, they're the best secrets, unless you're using some sort of manner of speculating about a future meta where the other secrets are good.

Freeze Mage doesn't show up on ladder all that much because it's very specialized.  It's a lot more useful in the best of 3 format, where you can consistently get it to face zoo, its specialty.  My freeze mage deck had the highest winrate at the university tournament I won and I plan on playing freeze mage again at a tournament this weekend.



Vaporize is just the pits all around.  It's a delayed deadly shot that always misses

I'm very confused by all this.

Vaporize isn't good yes, but why Ice Barrier? It's just a delayed Healing Touch, and straight healing cards like that aren't that good to begin with. They take up an entire card slot and often don't save your game. I've never seen Ice Block to anything productive aside from lowering my opponents hand size.

Perhaps you miss the point that Secrets are also to make your opponent make a bad play. You think Vaporize is bad? Then attack me with that strong minion why don't you? Come on, I dare you. Oops. The point of secrets is to bait your opponent into a bad play, and like we were saying, Ice Barrier can do that, but it might as well be one of the others because their effects are more powerful.

Ice Block is different because it can potentially block much more damage than just 8 damage. Still, it's mostly just a way to push the game 1 turn longer and hope you get a card that saves you on your next draw.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 24, 2014, 11:56:58 pm
It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on April 25, 2014, 12:12:25 am
Counterspell, Spellbender, and Mirror Entity do better in decks with a normal arena-ish kind of design. But none of those cards are actually good enough to actually participate in normal arena-ish kind of mage decks.
Mirror Entity isn't that bad. Even if your opponent assumes it's Mirror Entity and has a weak minion in hand, you've forced them to play their weak minion when they may have wanted to do something else, so it's not a total waste. Best case, you get to block them playing their Ogre/whatever until they draw a weak minion. Think of Mirror Entity as a sort of average-ish minion and not as a spell, and it seems playable, though not strong.

Edit: Oh, I think I misunderstood you. You're not talking about arena itself, but about making constructed decks that resemble arena decks?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 25, 2014, 10:36:07 am
It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.

But is a deck like that even that strong? There's no guarantee you actually draw those cards, and in constructed you can only have 2 of each. Plus you can only play them starting on turn 3, and only 1 at a time. I just don't see it beating anything class with healing, so all Priest decks, nor any class that burst a lot of damage. All they need to do is test and then once you're at 1hp you just better hope you can draw the right cards. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 25, 2014, 11:55:17 am
How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 25, 2014, 11:56:30 am
It's like Counting House vs Harvest. If you're forced to choose for a random deck, Spellbender is better than Ice Block. But in constructed, you don't really ever want Spellbender, while you can build a deck for Ice Block (and Ice Barrier). The idea for the deck is to stall until you have enough mana to kill combo.

But is a deck like that even that strong? There's no guarantee you actually draw those cards, and in constructed you can only have 2 of each. Plus you can only play them starting on turn 3, and only 1 at a time. I just don't see it beating anything class with healing, so all Priest decks, nor any class that burst a lot of damage. All they need to do is test and then once you're at 1hp you just better hope you can draw the right cards. Maybe I'm crazy, I don't know.



Before the across-the-board cost increase to freeze cards it was absolutely dominant. Between freezing, board wipes, ice secrets, and sometimes taunting mountain/molten giants, it was not hard to stay alive for 8-10 turns which is plenty to draw enough burn (frostbolt, ice lance, fireball, pyroblast) assuming you include enough card draw.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 25, 2014, 12:02:07 pm
How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 25, 2014, 12:10:41 pm
How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 25, 2014, 12:43:49 pm
How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.

Shattered sun claric costs 3mana, so you can't coin into a 1-1 and then buff it turn 2
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 25, 2014, 12:54:18 pm
How do you guys deal with your opening draw?  Obviously it's much different from Magic what with no lands.  But I tend to have a lot of time where I draw 3/4/4, with a normal mana curve.  And let's say they're good cards... SSC, Yeti, Spellbreaker, nothing rare but very good.  Keep them, and hope you have something to do on turns 1 and 2?  Or discard the lot of them and hope to draw a 1 or 2?

Depends on what you mean by "normal" curve and what you expect out of your opponents deck. Typically, in arena, with that draw I just keep the Yeti. If I don't have a turn 2 play, I don't want to keep more than one bigger card. Spellbreaker I never keep anyway. Anything that you can't for sure play by turn 4 is not really worth keeping in arena.

One psychological thing about mulligans is that you shouldn't think of the default as keeping the cards. You have the option to guarantee any of these cards to be in your starting hand, and you have to ask if you really want them. Don't feel bad about throwing a good late game card. You'll probably see it again. In constructed it's a bit different because sometimes your deck hinges heavily on a late game card, which you have to keep anyway, but usually arena decks are not like that.

SSC isn't good in that draw anyways, unless you're Paladin or to a lesser degree Shaman. You have no guarantee that you'll have a creature out to buff in that situation. I'd probably keep only the Yeti, also. If I'm Paladin and playing 2nd, I might keep the SSC (1st turn->coin-summon 1/1, 2nd turn->SSC buff summon to 2/2).

In a more general sense if I get a draw like the above. I'd keep at most one of the cards, whichever I think is best in the early game.

Shattered sun claric costs 3mana, so you can't coin into a 1-1 and then buff it turn 2
Good point. Forget what I said. Shattered Sun could still work as a turn 3 play if you were a Paladin, but that's still usually going to be weaker than playing a normal 2-drop.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 25, 2014, 02:57:11 pm
Freeze Mage has won first place in one managrind that I know of, after the freezing nerfs.  And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on April 25, 2014, 04:16:42 pm
And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.
Why does format matter for deck strength?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 25, 2014, 04:20:58 pm
And managrind isn't even the best format for the deck, if I recall correctly it's not two out of three.
Why does format matter for deck strength?

Well, consider warlock.  There's two major competitive warlock archetypes (Zoo and Handlock), and you want to mulligan very, very differently against the two decks.  In a best of one matchup, 100% of the games are played with your opponent not really knowing how to mulligan.  In games two and three, if they exist, the player will certainly make much better decisions with their starting hand.

I would guess that freezemage ran into this same issue.  When they were popular, there was also a popular aggro-mage deck that required different mulligan decisions from the opponent.  If part of freezemage's advantage was that opponents often mis-mulliganed against the deck, that's an edge that's lost in series with multiple games.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 25, 2014, 04:21:56 pm
Although the implication seems to be that freezing mage is better in best two out of three matches.. I'm not sure why that would be.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on April 25, 2014, 04:22:01 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nrNgCFt5rI
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 25, 2014, 04:59:31 pm
Perhaps I just... suck?

My average wins in the arena is 3-4. Its very related to having a good mana curve, not just getting the best cards.

I think my average is a solid 2 wins.  It's... less than satisfying.  I seem to do better in constructed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 25, 2014, 06:44:33 pm
I mispoke.  Managrind, last time I participated, is played best 2 out of 3 with the restriction that you must play the same class all three games.  The majority of other major tournaments is played best 2 out of three with the requirement that you play a different class after each defeat.  Freeze Mage has a very specialized matchup spread, with one of the best if not the best matchup against Zoo but also some really terrible matchups against control warrior and Flare.  (I say Flare instead of a deck name because I feel Freeze mage tends to do really well against the other 28 cards in Hunter decks, but Flare wrecks Freeze mage rather dramatically.)

So freeze mage is best when you have some control over which matchups it encounters.  As a practical example, in my last 3 of 5 tournament I started off as Druid against a player and he played aggro Rogue.  I won that game.  He switched to a very heal heavy Paladin and defeated my druid.  Since Ice Mage is terrible against Paladin, I switched to my Control Warrior to try to remove the Paladin threat to my remaining duo.  I did, and he switched to Zoo and beat my Warrior, and then my remaining deck was freeze mage which had good prospects.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 25, 2014, 06:47:43 pm
I'm really confused as to what kind of tournament format Blizzard is going to encourage the most.  An official Blizzard tournament was the inspiration for the "pokemon stadium" format.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 25, 2014, 11:05:19 pm
Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 25, 2014, 11:41:36 pm
Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

It's only 7 damage, and then it trades with any 2 drop and half the 1 drops.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 25, 2014, 11:48:21 pm
Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

It's only 7 damage, and then it trades with any 2 drop and half the 1 drops.

It should be expected that Warrior decks will run most of those low cost enraged minions. So many Warrior spells work with damaged minions that they just can can hit really hard with only a few minions.

But like drab said, 7 damage isn't game changing. It's good to able to deal with larger minions, say boulderfist ogres, but each class has ways unique to their class to do this kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 26, 2014, 12:28:12 am
Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

It's only 7 damage, and then it trades with any 2 drop and half the 1 drops.

...unless your opponent can eliminate your drops on his turn with other minions or Fiery Axe, then attack your hero with the Berserker.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 26, 2014, 12:31:37 am
Amani Berserker + Cruel Taskmaster = Why did I bother to show up?

It's only 7 damage, and then it trades with any 2 drop and half the 1 drops.

...unless your opponent can eliminate your drops on his turn with other minions or Fiery Axe, then attack your hero with the Berserker.

Well, if you're talking about turn 2/3 (or 1/2 with coin), they haven't had time to play anything else yet, except maybe a 1 drop. If you're talking about later on, then not having the ability to clear the Berserker before it can attack is unfortunate, yeah.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 27, 2014, 05:19:55 am
In semi-related news, I made a silly aggro Warrior to get some quests done quickly, and yeah, if they can't answer T1 coin out Amani, T2 Cruel Taskmaster, then you pretty much get a free win. I'm only around rank 16-17 in play mode, but it's pretty ridiculous how out of hand Enrage creatures/Frothing Berzerker can get if you don't remove/silence them right away.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 27, 2014, 11:43:33 am
In semi-related news, I made a silly aggro Warrior to get some quests done quickly, and yeah, if they can't answer T1 coin out Amani, T2 Cruel Taskmaster, then you pretty much get a free win. I'm only around rank 16-17 in play mode, but it's pretty ridiculous how out of hand Enrage creatures/Frothing Berzerker can get if you don't remove/silence them right away.

I have a similar deck, and it's tons of fun, but obviously not the most consistent. I'm still waiting to live the dream of turn 3 Raging Worgen, turn 4 Inner Rage x 2, Rampage x 2, attack for 28.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 27, 2014, 01:04:58 pm
And gets two for one'd by a certain three drop.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on April 27, 2014, 08:35:30 pm
One thing I like about arena are the really out-there combos you get to see sometimes.

Example: I just played against a Priest who did Mogu'shan Warden -> Inner Fire -> Faceless Manipulator, to get two 7/7's on the board.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 29, 2014, 12:37:23 am
I'm starting to appreciate how useful good neutrals are in Arena. I drafted a Priest deck which initially felt horrible (almost no 2 drops, no Holy Nova, one Shadow Word: Pain), but I'm getting carried ridiculously hard by Yeti, Dark Iron Dwarf, and lots of Earthen Ring Farseers.

To be fair, I also have one Shadow Madness, which has absolutely saved my life, and one Shadowform, which usually wins me the game if I can ever feel safe enough to play it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 29, 2014, 12:44:01 am
Does anyone have any links to good guides, discussion forums, etc. on Hearthstone?  I used to live at elitistjerks when I was playing WOW, but can't find anything similar.

Wowhead has a section, but...well, yeah.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 29, 2014, 02:02:58 am
I'm starting to appreciate how useful good neutrals are in Arena. I drafted a Priest deck which initially felt horrible (almost no 2 drops, no Holy Nova, one Shadow Word: Pain), but I'm getting carried ridiculously hard by Yeti, Dark Iron Dwarf, and lots of Earthen Ring Farseers.

To be fair, I also have one Shadow Madness, which has absolutely saved my life, and one Shadowform, which usually wins me the game if I can ever feel safe enough to play it.

Solid minions are the backbone of most good arena decks, and most of those turn out to be neutral!  Especially good 2-4 drops.. what you play during those turns determines if you're going to be ahead or behind, and that's huge.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 29, 2014, 08:57:28 am
Does anyone have any links to good guides, discussion forums, etc. on Hearthstone?  I used to live at elitistjerks when I was playing WOW, but can't find anything similar.

Wowhead has a section, but...well, yeah.

Icy Veins has a reasonably good section.  Hearthpwn is the Curse of Hearthstone.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 29, 2014, 11:54:15 am
I like LiquidHearth but I'm generally biased in favor of TeamLiquid, having been with them for so long and knowing so many of the people that run it.

By the way, here's my first ever Arena deck! 

(http://i.imgur.com/rPvrZhm.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/3Y4SnOq.jpg)

I haven't played it yet.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 29, 2014, 11:58:06 am
It look amazingly good. You got a great mana curve and a legendary. Ysera is not bad too.

Oh, Frostwolf Grunt is pretty bad though for a 2. I mean, if it was needed for the mana curve, yeah you have to choose it, but in general it's not good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 29, 2014, 12:00:36 pm
Yeah that was one of the not-so-many good choices ones.  My other choices were Goldshire Footman and ... Murloc Raider I want to say?  One of the crap Murlocs that gives +1 to other Murlocs or something.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 29, 2014, 12:02:08 pm
> secretly hoping that others would say the deck was terrible so he has something to blame when he goes 0-3
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 29, 2014, 12:07:02 pm
> secretly hoping that others would say the deck was terrible so he has something to blame when he goes 0-3

Nah, at least 2-3 :P This looks better than most of my drafts.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 29, 2014, 12:25:41 pm
> secretly hoping that others would say the deck was terrible so he has something to blame when he goes 0-3

Nah, at least 2-3 :P This looks better than most of my drafts.

Yeah, that's what I'd say.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 29, 2014, 02:12:27 pm
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on April 29, 2014, 02:18:24 pm
Kirin Tor doesn't get to use his ability but has solid body nontheless, Blood Knight isn't all that jazz and Spiteful Smith is not much good here. Other than that and Frostwolf it is pretty neat.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 29, 2014, 02:23:26 pm
I like Blood Knight in arena. You always hope for a better epic, but a 3/3 for 3 isn't bad, and hard countering Scarlet Crusader/Sunwalker/Argent Squire is always nice.

The one thing I'd be worried about is that if your board gets cleared, your Defenders + Dark Iron Dwarf + Shattered Sun are all weaker, but honestly that's more of a first world problem anyways, since those cards are really good at controlling the board in the first place.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 29, 2014, 02:55:40 pm
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Ysera, Deathwing, and Black Knight were literally the first three cards I saw when I started, this being my first-ever Arena choice.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 29, 2014, 03:27:32 pm
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Ysera, Deathwing, and Black Knight were literally the first three cards I saw when I started, this being my first-ever Arena choice.

I really love Deathwing in Arena. Mana cost is high, but if the game goes that long it can turn around almost anything. My best arena run I owe largely to this card in a Priest deck aimed at making it to the late game. 3 of my 9 wins happened just because I had this card. You play out everything in your hand except Deathwing, let your opponent make seemingly good trades to regain board control allowing them to leave as many minions on the board of any size as they want and then drop Deathwing next turn to make them really regret playing out their hand.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on April 29, 2014, 06:59:55 pm
Theory you should feel bad if you go less than 4-3
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on April 30, 2014, 06:50:50 am
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Ysera, Deathwing, and Black Knight were literally the first three cards I saw when I started, this being my first-ever Arena choice.

I think that game always gives you 3 legendaries on first pick, as first three that I ever saw in arena were Nat Pagle, Deathwing and one that I don't remember.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 30, 2014, 08:54:05 am
Blah, went 2-0 and then 0-2. I think I screwed up the last game for sure, and perhaps the third game? Unclear: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/profile/pastBroadcasts
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2014, 10:37:02 am
Blah, went 2-0 and then 0-2. I think I screwed up the last game for sure, and perhaps the third game? Unclear: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/profile/pastBroadcasts

For game 4:

You avoid killing the 1/1 minion turn 3 and 4. Always kill minions when you can, especially against Paladin who has many good buffs. Also, playing the Cult master turn 4 was silly. They are very vulnerable and should only be played when you can guarantee some card draws the turn you play them, or you have Taunt Minions on the board. Still watching though.

EDIT 1: Turn 6 you wasted the Dark Iron Dwarfs battlecry by not testing for Noble Sacrifice. It's a really common Paladin secret. I would have first attacked the 1/1 minion the opponent had, that way you test for both Noble Sacrifice and that secret which revives a minion with 1hp. Then you can summon a minion that wouldn't be hurt that much by the secret that lowers you summoned minion to 1hp.

EDIT 2: turn 7 I would have killed the violent instructor. The raging worgen would die attacking your other taunt minion. Although I'm not sure which is really better, because you did have a flamestrike in your hand. Still, I'd killing the minion that summons other minions first.

EDIT 3: I don't have time to watch the rest right now :P However keep in mind how a card can be used to kill more than one of your opponents cards. That violet instructor was taking out more than 1 card, diverting your attention from other things. Also, the 1/1's make great buff targets for paladins, another thing I've learned the hard way while playing against them. Lastly there is a sound lag on the video. I hear what's going on loudly, but then about 30 seconds later I hear it again in the background. I guess this is a recording issue.

EDIT 4: But the Flamestrike turn 8 was great :P
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 30, 2014, 11:08:20 am
Blah, went 2-0 and then 0-2. I think I screwed up the last game for sure, and perhaps the third game? Unclear: http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/profile/pastBroadcasts

It's cool that you're posting videos. It's much easier to help this way. I watched game 3. There's quite a few misplays that I think are important basic concepts:
1. Playing for tempo early:
 - Turn 3 you have Amani vs Harvest Golem. You should play Grizzly and hit face with the Amani. The Golem will have to kill itself on the Grizzly, and the Amani should live another turn. Instead you play Grunt and hit the Golem with the Amani. There is no reason to play a 2/2 taunt instead of a 3/3 taunt when you have the mana.
 - Turn 5 you have a clear board vs Kobold Geo. You should play Arcane Missiles and a 3-drop minion. You instead play Intellect. A minion is almost always going to be better than Intellect early on. Intellect will draw you cards later when you have mana to spare. You don't want to give up the tempo early on.

2. Getting use from strong minion abilities:
 - Turn 6 you play Harvest Golem + Cleric when it should be Golem + Grizzly. You want to save the Cleric for a turn when you're attack if possible, to make sure you get good use of the ability.
 - Similarly, on turn 8 you should play Fireball + Blood Knight instead of Fireball + Cult Master. Save the Cult Master for a turn where you're trading.

3. Thinking before playing:
 - Turn 12 you have a clear board vs Sen'jin. You should Argent Commander + Hero power to kill it, but you play Acolyte first before counting your mana. This I think is just a matter of throwing cards out without counting mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 30, 2014, 11:40:36 am
Thank you all for the great advice!  This is extremely helpful.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 30, 2014, 02:24:55 pm
I was checking out game 2.  You gotta be looking for lethal, and not just favorable minion trades.  On the turn when you got Ysera to dream at the end, you could have polymorphed his taunt creature and alpha-striked (whole team to the face) for the win.  Granted you won the next turn.  But you can't pass up game winners.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on April 30, 2014, 02:31:02 pm
1. Playing for tempo early:
 - Turn 3 you have Amani vs Harvest Golem. You should play Grizzly and hit face with the Amani. The Golem will have to kill itself on the Grizzly, and the Amani should live another turn. Instead you play Grunt and hit the Golem with the Amani. There is no reason to play a 2/2 taunt instead of a 3/3 taunt when you have the mana.
That's probably best.  Somewhere in the middle is use mage-power to enrage Amani...hit and kill golem with that.  You'll take 2 to the face from the damaged golem, and have about the same board state as you ended up with, except you'll still have the grunt in hand.

I definitely agree with holding the Intellect.  I would only play intellect that early if I NEEDED answers now, or simply some good cards in teh 3-5 range.  You already ahve the cards, and don't need answers....save that for later.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on April 30, 2014, 03:26:18 pm
I just got completely wrecked in game 5 and ended up going 2-3.  WTF happened in this last game? 

http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/524542487
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 30, 2014, 03:32:48 pm
1. Playing for tempo early:
 - Turn 3 you have Amani vs Harvest Golem. You should play Grizzly and hit face with the Amani. The Golem will have to kill itself on the Grizzly, and the Amani should live another turn. Instead you play Grunt and hit the Golem with the Amani. There is no reason to play a 2/2 taunt instead of a 3/3 taunt when you have the mana.
That's probably best.  Somewhere in the middle is use mage-power to enrage Amani...hit and kill golem with that.  You'll take 2 to the face from the damaged golem, and have about the same board state as you ended up with, except you'll still have the grunt in hand.

No, that play is strictly inferior to attacking the Golem with the Amani and then using hero power to kill the Golem, leaving a 5/1 vs 2/1 instead of empty board vs 2/1.

But in general I think it's usually not worth it to kill the Harvest Golem if you can't kill the damaged Golem as well, since it leaves them with just as much damage potential on their board. Mana spent killing the Harvest Golem is better spent developing your board.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 30, 2014, 03:51:02 pm
I just got completely wrecked in game 5 and ended up going 2-3.  WTF happened in this last game? 

http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/524542487

Aggro Rogue happened. Not much you can do about that. Backstab+Defias into Demo with good aim is just not something you can deal with. You did misplay turn 2 (just ping the Bandit, playing a 3/2 is at best going to accomplish the same thing: removing the Bandit, but it wastes a card). Still, you were probably going to lose anyway.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on April 30, 2014, 04:11:35 pm
I just got completely wrecked in game 5 and ended up going 2-3.  WTF happened in this last game? 

http://www.twitch.tv/10b5/b/524542487

Aggro Rogue happened. Not much you can do about that. Backstab+Defias into Demo with good aim is just not something you can deal with. You did misplay turn 2 (just ping the Bandit, playing a 3/2 is at best going to accomplish the same thing: removing the Bandit, but it wastes a card). Still, you were probably going to lose anyway.

I agree. He had a good draw, but it's really hard to go against an aggro deck that has a great start like that. You were basically given a series of bad choices. You should have pinged the Bandit, but that would probably have only amounted to a 5/4 Demolisher instead of a 6/2 Bandit.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2014, 04:29:24 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 30, 2014, 05:26:49 pm
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Ysera, Deathwing, and Black Knight were literally the first three cards I saw when I started, this being my first-ever Arena choice.

I think that game always gives you 3 legendaries on first pick, as first three that I ever saw in arena were Nat Pagle, Deathwing and one that I don't remember.

Definitely not.  I got the legendaries first page my very first time in Arena, and never since.  I got a page of legendaries only one other time in ~6 arena tries.  So not guaranteed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on April 30, 2014, 05:36:33 pm
^I think he means the first pick for your first ever arena, not every arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2014, 05:37:57 pm
That deck's sweet, Theory.  Most cards are good at the very least, you have a pretty solid curve, good spells, etc.

Out of curiosity, what were the other legendaries besides Ysera?  The only time I've ever had Ysera I was pretty underwhelmed by her, and wish I had taken the other legendary instead (Thalnos).  She's very good, but 9 mana is just too much sometimes.
Ysera, Deathwing, and Black Knight were literally the first three cards I saw when I started, this being my first-ever Arena choice.

I think that game always gives you 3 legendaries on first pick, as first three that I ever saw in arena were Nat Pagle, Deathwing and one that I don't remember.

Definitely not.  I got the legendaries first page my very first time in Arena, and never since.  I got a page of legendaries only one other time in ~6 arena tries.  So not guaranteed.

I think he meant that in your very first arena, your very first choice will be a legendary.  After that, not so much.

----

Also, one thing I have to say is that Blizz really went far above and beyond with the flavor texts on this, I just wish it were possible to see the flavor text during the game!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 30, 2014, 06:15:52 pm
Also, one thing I have to say is that Blizz really went far above and beyond with the flavor texts on this, I just wish it were possible to see the flavor text during the game!

I love the flavor talk from the minions.  Hilariously perfect.  Also, the casting sound is the same as from WOW, so when the games lags as you are casting a spell, it feels just like when WOW would lag on big encounters.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 30, 2014, 06:38:27 pm
In regards to Match 4:

I very much disagree with your turn 2 play.  You spend your entire turn playing arcane missiles and passing, and while it does get rid of his board, it doesn't really develop yours at all, plus it uses your mana very inefficiently.  On top of that, you've effectively traded a card and 2 mana (missiles, the mana it took to cast it, and the mana you didn't use because you decided on that path) for 2 mana that he didn't even have to spend a card on.

There's a number of plays that would've been better.  Coining out any of your three drops would have been better, since it develops your board and leaves you with a 2/3 mana wurm, plus the effect of whatever you play.  Shattered sun Cleric is probably the one I would choose, since you get to have a 3/4 mana wyrm and a 3/2 SSC at end of turn.  I'm unsure whether trading with the 1/1 is good or not.  I would, but I tend to clear the board more than I should.  Coining out an acolyte of pain to try and eat his 1/1 and any future 1/1s is also fine, but I think worse than SSC since it puts so much less pressure on your opponent.  Just pinging his 1/1 would have been better as well, although worse than the minions.

One of the strengths of a card like arcane missiles is that it allows your to use your mana efficiently.  Because it costs only 1 mana, you can fit it in on a turn where you would otherwise be wasting a mana crystal.  On the other hand, those 3 drops are going to be pains to get out of your hand after turn 3... you want to play one on turn 2 and one on turn 3 to use your mana most efficiently.

The coin gets weaker as the game goes on, generally... you ended up not even using it!  Coining out a 2 drop on turn 1 is the best use of it, coining out a 3 drop on turn 2 is the second best use, and so on...  You could've pulled really far ahead with a strong turn 2, putting 2 strong minions on the board.  That's an opportunity you just can't afford to pass up.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2014, 06:44:41 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 30, 2014, 06:45:30 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.

Gj.  That deck's really good!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2014, 06:47:10 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.

Gj.  That deck's really good!

yeah, keep going. When you make it to 7+ you pretty much ake enough gold for more arena runs right away. Plus you earn cool cards sometimes.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 30, 2014, 06:47:36 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.

Gj.  That deck's really good!

yeah, keep going. When you make it to 7+ you pretty much ake enough gold for more arena runs right away. Plus you earn cool cards sometimes.

I think 9 wins guarantees your money back.  12 wins is the max.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on April 30, 2014, 06:49:58 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.

Gj.  That deck's really good!

yeah, keep going. When you make it to 7+ you pretty much ake enough gold for more arena runs right away. Plus you earn cool cards sometimes.

I think 9 wins guarantees your money back.  12 wins is the max.

I'm pretty sure it's 7.  It had been 7 for a while, and all of the runs I've ever gotten 7+ I've gotten at least 150 gold.  Maybe I'm just really lucky!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2014, 06:52:33 pm
So Hearthhead's deck builder could be useful for these discussions.  I think I got pretty lucky with this draft.  2-0 so far against two Mages, one of which was a perfect win.

http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=43109&edit

OK, I'm now 5-0 with this deck.  I'm... kinda scared to continue.

Gj.  That deck's really good!

yeah, keep going. When you make it to 7+ you pretty much ake enough gold for more arena runs right away. Plus you earn cool cards sometimes.

I think 9 wins guarantees your money back.  12 wins is the max.

When I got 8 wins I got a bag of $150 and another bag with some more $$. So no, not guarenteed, but the total winnings will be worth way more than $150.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on April 30, 2014, 06:57:23 pm
Each prize is a random pool, I think, so to get the guaranteed 150, I think you need 9 as of the last patch.  But I could be wrong, for sure.  I've never won that many anyway.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on April 30, 2014, 08:40:35 pm
I'm very sure the break-even point is 7 wins.

(Edit: By break-even, I mean earning 150 gold. I believe you only need 3 wins to get 50 gold, which is break-even for if you just bought a pack, but I'm not sure on that.)

See http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10858265800?page=17#323 for more details, it's all speculation but the numbers look and feel accurate to me.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on April 30, 2014, 09:14:39 pm
I'm very sure the break-even point is 7 wins.

(Edit: By break-even, I mean earning 150 gold. I believe you only need 3 wins to get 50 gold, which is break-even for if you just bought a pack, but I'm not sure on that.)

See http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/10858265800?page=17#323 for more details, it's all speculation but the numbers look and feel accurate to me.

yes, 3 wins will get you more than if you had just bought packs, but it may be in the form of dust or an extra card. 7 wins will pay for another arena run I think, but you can get less wins at still get lucky and get $150.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on April 30, 2014, 09:58:45 pm
Theory, I think in game 4, you held onto the coin for far too long. Like Nkirbit said, using it turn 2 was probably best, but after that you had a few chances to use it. Turn 8 after you cast flamestrike to get another 2 drop out there would have been another good use.

The coin is more impactful early on (unless you're saving it for a turn 6 flamestrike or something). Getting a 3 cost minion on turn 2, or a 4 cost minion on turn 3, is much better in my eyes than just about anything else you could use the coin for.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on April 30, 2014, 10:58:58 pm
So this is all in one place:

Twistedarcher - Bkirbit #1439
Popsofctown - KirbyHero #1343
Grujah - Grujah #2516
ycz6 - ycz#1361
KingZog3 - KingZog3 #1700
Drab Emordnilap - Drab #1455
Shraeye - Shraeye #1428
Theory - Theory#1157
Kirian - Kirian #1720
HiveMindEmulator - Mikohoy#1464
Ashersky - Ashersky #1470
Titandrake #1456
Nkirbit - Nick #11795
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on April 30, 2014, 11:56:32 pm
Well, I can't add any further data to the question what 7 wins gets you.  I just got 150g and a rare (Blizzard, so actually a useful one.)

My last couple of games included:

a Rogue who comboed Gurubashi Berserker + Defender of Argus + Faceless Manipulator (over two turns) to put two 5/6 taunts in play
a Druid who comboed Force of Nature + Power of the Wild to clear my board and leave himself with the two minions he already had out still in play and buffed +1/+1 each
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 12:34:46 am
Because I apparently have little to do other than random math problems, I ran the math on an arena run.  Assuming that people are matched up, on average, with another player with the same record, then of 8192 runs that start:

Code: [Select]
Wins    Runs    %
0       1024    12.50
1       1536    18.75
2       1536    18.75
3       1280    15.63
4        960    11.72
5        672     8.20
6        448     5.47
7        288     3.52
8        180     2.20
9        110     1.34
10        66     0.81
11        39     0.48
12        53     0.65

Mean number of wins is 2.992, though interestingly the median is 2.5: half of all runs achieve 2 or fewer wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 12:47:44 am
The hearthpwn page on Arena has a table similar, with different results.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 02:12:37 am
The hearthpwn page on Arena has a table similar, with different results.

Actually, if you scroll down to their bottom tables, they look exactly the same as mine.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 02:26:52 am
The hearthpwn page on Arena has a table similar, with different results.

Actually, if you scroll down to their bottom tables, they look exactly the same as mine.

Right you are.  I saw that first table and stopped.

Also, 7 games for sure to get 150 gold back.  I was incorrect there, although that exact page is where I thought I saw 9.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 01, 2014, 10:10:10 am
I've been using Arena Mastery: http://arenamastery.com/tjy1. 

Here are my first three arena runs (and for the second two you can comment on my drafting):
http://arenamastery.com/LYqa
http://arenamastery.com/PhlB
http://arenamastery.com/vCgr

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 01, 2014, 10:19:31 am
Either I am doing something wrong or those links aren't working as they are supposted to, theory.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 01, 2014, 10:59:47 am
fixed links
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 01, 2014, 11:15:37 am
Coining out a 2 drop on turn 1 is the best use of it, coining out a 3 drop on turn 2 is the second best use, and so on...
Lots of good advice in your post, but I don't agree with this bit. Kripp (the streamer) is a strong arena player and tends to not use the coin on turn 1.

Here's why I think turn 1 use is not ideal, outside of specific plays like coin-scrub, wyrm-coin-mirror image, etc. If just used to accelerate minions, the coin is most effectively used to get out a minion that is unusually strong for its mana cost. So for example, coining out a Yeti on turn 3 is one of the best uses of the coin. But there aren't any 2-drops nearly as exciting on an empty board as Yeti, Golem, etc. The best that comes to mind is Knife Juggler, but if you coin that out, it'll tend to get removed before you can use its ability anyway.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 01, 2014, 11:31:07 am
Coining out a 2 drop on turn 1 is the best use of it, coining out a 3 drop on turn 2 is the second best use, and so on...
Lots of good advice in your post, but I don't agree with this bit. Kripp (the streamer) is a strong arena player and tends to not use the coin on turn 1.

Here's why I think turn 1 use is not ideal, outside of specific plays like coin-scrub, wyrm-coin-mirror image, etc. If just used to accelerate minions, the coin is most effectively used to get out a minion that is unusually strong for its mana cost. So for example, coining out a Yeti on turn 3 is one of the best uses of the coin. But there aren't any 2-drops nearly as exciting on an empty board as Yeti, Golem, etc. The best that comes to mind is Knife Juggler, but if you coin that out, it'll tend to get removed before you can use its ability anyway.

I agree with blueblimp. From experience saving the coin for later is strong. Even Venture co. on turn 4 can be good, and Rogue's can use it to combo with tons of cards that it's worth it to keep it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 01, 2014, 11:42:55 am
It's not that good on T1 if you cannot follow with T2 drop, it's ok if you can follow.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 01, 2014, 12:52:28 pm
Because I apparently have little to do other than random math problems, I ran the math on an arena run.  Assuming that people are matched up, on average, with another player with the same record, then of 8192 runs that start:

Code: [Select]
Wins    Runs    %
0       1024    12.50
1       1536    18.75
2       1536    18.75
3       1280    15.63
4        960    11.72
5        672     8.20
6        448     5.47
7        288     3.52
8        180     2.20
9        110     1.34
10        66     0.81
11        39     0.48
12        53     0.65

Mean number of wins is 2.992, though interestingly the median is 2.5: half of all runs achieve 2 or fewer wins.

This actually makes me feel way better about my arena runs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 01, 2014, 01:24:29 pm
It's not that good on T1 if you cannot follow with T2 drop, it's ok if you can follow.

If you have 2 2-drops and no 1-drop, you should absolutely coin one out almost all the time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 01, 2014, 04:38:05 pm
It's not that good on T1 if you cannot follow with T2 drop, it's ok if you can follow.

If you have 2 2-drops and no 1-drop, you should absolutely coin one out almost all the time.
If my hand is 2x raptor, 1x yeti, and some crappier/costlier stuff, I think T1 nothing T2 raptor T3 yeti is often better than T1 raptor T2 raptor T3 hero power T4 yeti. I suppose it depends partly on your mana curve. If you have a lot of sub-4 stuff, then it may be better to coin the raptor and hope you draw something to play on T3. I find that arena decks are often heavy on 4+ drops, so I wouldn't want to depend on drawing something cheap.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 01, 2014, 04:58:07 pm
It's not that good on T1 if you cannot follow with T2 drop, it's ok if you can follow.

If you have 2 2-drops and no 1-drop, you should absolutely coin one out almost all the time.
If my hand is 2x raptor, 1x yeti, and some crappier/costlier stuff, I think T1 nothing T2 raptor T3 yeti is often better than T1 raptor T2 raptor T3 hero power T4 yeti. I suppose it depends partly on your mana curve. If you have a lot of sub-4 stuff, then it may be better to coin the raptor and hope you draw something to play on T3. I find that arena decks are often heavy on 4+ drops, so I wouldn't want to depend on drawing something cheap.

If you have to hero power turn 3, then of course you lose any tempo you gained from the coin. So yeah, if you have little hope of drawing something to play turn 3 (even another 2-drop) in the next couple draws, then I guess you want to save the coin, but you run the risk of getting into a lot of trouble that way. If he plays turn 2 raptor, turn 3 removal (and another minion if the removal is Backstab/Soulfire), your turn 3 Yeti isn't going to save you.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 05:20:57 pm
Anyone else finding themselves saying tazdingo all the time now?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 01, 2014, 05:42:28 pm
Anyone else finding themselves saying tazdingo all the time now?

I thought I'd been saying tazdingo since playing warcraft II, but my unreliable memory has apparently made me misremember the origin of tazdingo. Tazdingo is great. It's so great it has retconned itself into my history.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 01, 2014, 06:22:25 pm
Anyone else finding themselves saying tazdingo all the time now?

Tazdingo has become synonymous with "beefy taunt". Fen Creeper is backup Tazdingo. Void walker is baby Tazdingo. Sunwalker is magical Tazdingo. Ironbark Protector or whatever is Giga Tazdingo. Mark of the Wild is a make your own Tazdingo kit.

TAAAZDINGOOOO
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 06:24:11 pm
Anyone else finding themselves saying tazdingo all the time now?

Um... no?  What card is that?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 01, 2014, 07:05:26 pm
I'm Titandrake #1456 if people want to add me.

Tazdingo = Senjin Shieldmaster = the savior against having a bad turn 2 and 3.

Also, either I'm only getting into games where Shadowform is good, or Shadowform is the best card in arena. Yes, you need to be in a safe position to play it in the first place, but 5 mana for 2 damage is often enough to let you live that turn, and then you have this ridiculous amount of inevitability and reach in the late game. I've won a lot of games this arena run by rushing for the face, then using Shadowform to get them to an unavioidable lethal in the next couple of turns unless they draw a heal.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 01, 2014, 07:06:00 pm
Anyone else finding themselves saying tazdingo all the time now?

Um... no?  What card is that?

It's what senjin shieldmasta says when he gets played
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 07:13:43 pm
Ah.  I play without sound, so that explains things a bit.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 01, 2014, 07:15:17 pm
Ah.  I play without sound, so that explains things a bit.

Whaaaaaa?! You miss all the catch phrases! Tazdingo! Mmmyyyeeeeessss!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 01, 2014, 07:20:02 pm
Omg got my first 12 win arena with that priest deck. My last opponent DCed when the game could have gone either way, but I'm still really happy about this.


Edit: 2 packs, 245 gold, and a golden Unleash the Hounds for the rewards. One of those packs had a Harrison Jones in it. I think I'm done for the day, since I bet I've used up all the good fortune that the RNG gods are giving me today.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 07:29:23 pm
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 01, 2014, 07:36:41 pm
I'm in the camp of almost always coining out a 2 drop turn 1 on the draw, assuming I have a second 2 drop to follow it up.  (With certain exceptions.. I won't coin out a loot horder against a mage if I have 2 of them, for example).  Yeah, if I miss a turn later it sucks, but that's really not that likely.. I'll probably have something to play turn 3 and 4 regardless of whether I have the coin or not.

Now, here's a question:  How do you use innervate?  Say my opener is Innervate, Yeti, Harvest Golem.. I'll 100% pass turn 1, yeti turn 2, and golem turn 3.  But there are much harder decisions I routinely have to make with my druid deck, and I'm pretty sure I get a lot of them wrong.

Let's start with this one:  Turn1, on the draw, your hand is Innervate x2, Yeti, Cairne, Ysera, Coin.  What's the play?  My pick would be to coin out Yeti.. but maybe coining out Cairne is better?  I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 01, 2014, 07:37:29 pm
My name is Nick #11795, btw.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 08:27:48 pm
Ah.  I play without sound, so that explains things a bit.

Whaaaaaa?! You miss all the catch phrases! Tazdingo! Mmmyyyeeeeessss!


Mmmmmmmmrmgglgrlglglrlglgll.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 01, 2014, 08:38:10 pm
Ah.  I play without sound, so that explains things a bit.

Whaaaaaa?! You miss all the catch phrases! Tazdingo! Mmmyyyeeeeessss!


Mmmmmmmmrmgglgrlglglrlglgll.

This is our town, scrub. Yeah, beat it!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 08:42:17 pm
Can folks define some terms for me?  I see "aggro" and "ramp up" used to describe decks, but no good definitions.  To me, aggro is what the tank wants, which doesn't make much sense in Hearthstone terms to me.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 01, 2014, 08:43:38 pm
Ah.  I play without sound, so that explains things a bit.

Whaaaaaa?! You miss all the catch phrases! Tazdingo! Mmmyyyeeeeessss!

Mmmmmmmmrmgglgrlglglrlglgll.

I played WOW for 8+ years; I've had plenty of Murloc charging noises, thanks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 01, 2014, 09:03:33 pm
Can folks define some terms for me?  I see "aggro" and "ramp up" used to describe decks, but no good definitions.  To me, aggro is what the tank wants, which doesn't make much sense in Hearthstone terms to me.

I don't know what "ramp up" is, but aggro I think means decks that aim to end as fast as possible. Warlock decks that put out tons of minions and try to end quickly are aggro decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 01, 2014, 10:39:36 pm
In MtG, ramp decks are decks designed to quickly get lots of mana, then play high cost cards several turns earlier than they should, so I'm assuming it means the same thing in Hearthstone. As far as I know, only Druid can build a ramp deck in Hearthstone, because they're the class that has all the mana manipulation. I haven't seen a Druid deck that runs Wild Growth, or Nourish for the mana instead of the cards, they usually use Innervate to get a short boost instead.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 10:44:00 pm
In MtG, ramp decks are decks designed to quickly get lots of mana, then play high cost cards several turns earlier than they should, so I'm assuming it means the same thing in Hearthstone. As far as I know, only Druid can build a ramp deck in Hearthstone, because they're the class that has all the mana manipulation. I haven't seen a Druid deck that runs Wild Growth, or Nourish for the mana instead of the cards, they usually use Innervate to get a short boost instead.

Are Druids running Healing Touch?  I mean, 8 HP for 3 is nice, but I feel like every time I draw it, I don't need it or it's too late and I'd rather it was a minion.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 01, 2014, 11:32:21 pm
In MtG, ramp decks are decks designed to quickly get lots of mana, then play high cost cards several turns earlier than they should, so I'm assuming it means the same thing in Hearthstone. As far as I know, only Druid can build a ramp deck in Hearthstone, because they're the class that has all the mana manipulation. I haven't seen a Druid deck that runs Wild Growth, or Nourish for the mana instead of the cards, they usually use Innervate to get a short boost instead.

Are Druids running Healing Touch?  I mean, 8 HP for 3 is nice, but I feel like every time I draw it, I don't need it or it's too late and I'd rather it was a minion.

I never found pure healing cards to be that useful to be honest. Most other cards could save you and are useful in more situations.

Also Druids rarely run Wild Growth because it's a dead card unles you draw it early, and even then it has no board presence that it leaves you with a huge tempo loss. Innervate is good because it's useful at many more stages of the game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 01, 2014, 11:47:10 pm
I played Wild Growth with 10 mana crystal already and it gave me a card of mana, like the Coin.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 01, 2014, 11:54:49 pm
I've seen a decent amount of druids running wild growth.. probably 50/50 between growth and no growth this past week.  I don't run it myself, but I'm considering trying it out.  My deck often suffers from poor turn 2s if I don't draw innervate, and growths help that problem.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 02, 2014, 12:02:47 am
I've seen a decent amount of druids running wild growth.. probably 50/50 between growth and no growth this past week.  I don't run it myself, but I'm considering trying it out.  My deck often suffers from poor turn 2s if I don't draw innervate, and growths help that problem.

The problem with Growth on T2 is you've basically done nothing that turn, and depending on who you are against, it could just smoke you.

Sometimes it's nice to have on T5 if you are dropping a 3 or something.

I'm thinking of dropping Growth and Touch both in lieu of more attack.


Separately, is Shieldbearer awesome or terrible?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 02, 2014, 12:18:02 am
I've seen a decent amount of druids running wild growth.. probably 50/50 between growth and no growth this past week.  I don't run it myself, but I'm considering trying it out.  My deck often suffers from poor turn 2s if I don't draw innervate, and growths help that problem.

The problem with Growth on T2 is you've basically done nothing that turn, and depending on who you are against, it could just smoke you.

Sometimes it's nice to have on T5 if you are dropping a 3 or something.

I'm thinking of dropping Growth and Touch both in lieu of more attack.


Separately, is Shieldbearer awesome or terrible?

I agree that it makes for a bad turn 2.  But on turn 3, you're casting a yeti instead of a harvest golem.  On turn 4, you're casting a druid of the claw.  Maybe turn 5 you innervate out rag.

It's a slow play, but druid doesn't have many two drops, especially if you're not running ancient watcher.  I don't know how much I like it, since I've never played with it, but there are a lot of very successful decks out there running it, so I doubt it's awful.



Shieldbearer is good if you're in position to take advantage of the board state it gives you.  Your cheaper minions can hind behind it and hopefully kill them before they know what happened..  That's why it's one of the best cards in Zoo.  You play it and a flame imp, and they can't really kill your flame imp!  Yeah, you kill it eventually, and maybe it got no value, but you took 15 damage before you could, and warlock's just going to tap for more cards eventually anyway.

In an arena deck though, it's awful.  Most decks aren't focused enough to really take advantage of the 2 or so turns it buys you, so you're just going to be down a card.  There are situations where it's okay, but it's just not worth a card.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 02, 2014, 07:39:13 am
Can folks define some terms for me?  I see "aggro" and "ramp up" used to describe decks, but no good definitions.  To me, aggro is what the tank wants, which doesn't make much sense in Hearthstone terms to me.

An aggro deck is an aggressive deck that wants to play cheaper cards with a high damage per mana ratio. An aggro deck will usually run out of cards in hand before their opponent, because their average card is cheaper and weaker, but the goal is to use the short term advantage of cheaper cards to win before the opponent can effectively use all their more expensive cards.

A ramp deck is not as well of a defined term. Generally "to ramp" means to spend early resources to generate more resources per turn later in the game, to deploy more expensive threats earlier than normal. Wild Growth and Pint Sized Summoner both let you use your turn 2 mana for a weaker result, but then let you cast a 4 mana minion a turn early, on turn 3. There isn't a lot of true "ramp" in Hearthstone like there is in MtG, though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 02, 2014, 09:59:13 am
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 02, 2014, 10:13:21 am
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.
Can you do the quests using unranked?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 02, 2014, 10:16:54 am
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.

Its a new season, so everyone will be low on the ladder. They are all playing each other, so it'll take some time until they reach a high rank and things start balancing out.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 02, 2014, 10:17:22 am
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.
Can you do the quests using unranked?

Yes you can. Unranked works for quests.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 02, 2014, 10:28:22 am
Now, here's a question:  How do you use innervate?  Say my opener is Innervate, Yeti, Harvest Golem.. I'll 100% pass turn 1, yeti turn 2, and golem turn 3.  But there are much harder decisions I routinely have to make with my druid deck, and I'm pretty sure I get a lot of them wrong.

Let's start with this one:  Turn1, on the draw, your hand is Innervate x2, Yeti, Cairne, Ysera, Coin.  What's the play?  My pick would be to coin out Yeti.. but maybe coining out Cairne is better?  I'm not sure.

Innervate is a tempo card and as such you generally want to play it as soon as possible in a tempo deck. There is very little reason to not get a Yeti out on turn 1-2 if possible.

The thing to watch out for, as has been mentioned with the coin, is big gaps in your mana curve. Typically Ramp Druids have mana curves concentrated around 5+. So if you innervate out Caire on turn 1 but have nothing to follow up with for the next 4 turns, it might not be worth it.

I've seen a decent amount of druids running wild growth.. probably 50/50 between growth and no growth this past week.  I don't run it myself, but I'm considering trying it out.  My deck often suffers from poor turn 2s if I don't draw innervate, and growths help that problem.

The problem with Growth on T2 is you've basically done nothing that turn, and depending on who you are against, it could just smoke you.

Sometimes it's nice to have on T5 if you are dropping a 3 or something.

I'm thinking of dropping Growth and Touch both in lieu of more attack.


Separately, is Shieldbearer awesome or terrible?

Like Ice Block, Wild Growth and Shieldbearer are terrible in arena, but very good in the right constructed deck. Ramp Druids are very popular now using Wild Growth along with and endless stream of high-cost taunts (DotC, Sunwalker, AoW). Shieldbearer is big in Zoo Warlock where (1) you have lots of ways to buff it (Dire Wolf, Cleric, Argus, Abusive/Dwarf) and (2) you don't care much about card advantage. 0/4 generally won't trade for anything, but it does buy time for your other minions, which is what's important in this kind of aggressive board control deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 02, 2014, 10:36:26 am
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.

Its a new season, so everyone will be low on the ladder. They are all playing each other, so it'll take some time until they reach a high rank and things start balancing out.

Ah, right... and unlike mid- and late- season, where unranked will be full of people testing out weird decks, they're all in ranked.

(Gabe from PA suggested playing ranked due to people testing powerful decks before using them in ranked, to preserve high ratings.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on May 02, 2014, 11:23:06 am
The idea of monthly ladder resets is so stupid. It appears to me the only thing it does is cause lots of frustration.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 02, 2014, 11:46:45 am
Now, here's a question:  How do you use innervate?  Say my opener is Innervate, Yeti, Harvest Golem.. I'll 100% pass turn 1, yeti turn 2, and golem turn 3.  But there are much harder decisions I routinely have to make with my druid deck, and I'm pretty sure I get a lot of them wrong.

Let's start with this one:  Turn1, on the draw, your hand is Innervate x2, Yeti, Cairne, Ysera, Coin.  What's the play?  My pick would be to coin out Yeti.. but maybe coining out Cairne is better?  I'm not sure.

Innervate is a tempo card and as such you generally want to play it as soon as possible in a tempo deck. There is very little reason to not get a Yeti out on turn 1-2 if possible.

Oh, I agree.  I try to use it early if possible.  The one thing I find myself hardly ever doing, though, is innervating out a harvest golem on turn1.  It's just underwhelming.  I'm not even convinced Harvest Golem is worth playing, although I see it in almost every list.  There are matchups where it's good, such as Warrior or something, but everytime I draw it against zoo I just feel horrible.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 02, 2014, 12:01:44 pm
SO with the ladder having reset for May, I think it makes sense to take a break from ranked play.  I'm getting slammed by real decks.

OK, no, seriously, why are people with multiple legendaries and golden rares hanging out at level 20?  No way to earn gold with quests, so no way to do arena, so... Ah!  Blizzard is trying to get my money.

That... really makes me want to stop playing.
Can you do the quests using unranked?

The idea of monthly ladder resets is so stupid. It appears to me the only thing it does is cause lots of frustration.

I actually kinda like it, but I tend to keep myself artificially low in ranked play so I can use it for quests. Now is the time of the season where I just avoid ranked play, and try to just play arena. If I need gold I either take a break from Hearthstone or grind it out in unranked. Once the players who care about ranked play have sorted themselves out, I can run in with a deck that's way better than the average rank 21 deck stomp my way through a quest quickly when I want the gold and then get back to the Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 02, 2014, 01:18:14 pm
Now, here's a question:  How do you use innervate?  Say my opener is Innervate, Yeti, Harvest Golem.. I'll 100% pass turn 1, yeti turn 2, and golem turn 3.  But there are much harder decisions I routinely have to make with my druid deck, and I'm pretty sure I get a lot of them wrong.

Let's start with this one:  Turn1, on the draw, your hand is Innervate x2, Yeti, Cairne, Ysera, Coin.  What's the play?  My pick would be to coin out Yeti.. but maybe coining out Cairne is better?  I'm not sure.

Innervate is a tempo card and as such you generally want to play it as soon as possible in a tempo deck. There is very little reason to not get a Yeti out on turn 1-2 if possible.

Oh, I agree.  I try to use it early if possible.  The one thing I find myself hardly ever doing, though, is innervating out a harvest golem on turn1.  It's just underwhelming.  I'm not even convinced Harvest Golem is worth playing, although I see it in almost every list.  There are matchups where it's good, such as Warrior or something, but everytime I draw it against zoo I just feel horrible.

Generally stuff with deathrattles aren't the best things to innervate out because their value comes in after they die. Until it dies, Caire is just a Yeti, and Harvest Golem a Croc.

As far as Harvest Golem being in every deck list, there's a couple (historical) reasons for that:
1. It's good in decks with a lot of buffs because it's hard to remove completely.
2. It's good against super aggro decks because it can kill a 2/1 or 2/2 and then kill 2 3/2s.

(1) of course still exists, but (2) is dying out with pure face builds becoming less popular and all aggressive Warlocks playing Shieldbearers.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 02, 2014, 03:26:07 pm
So I'm going into arena, yay!  Only my third time in, but my second time didn't count because I lost all 3 due to disconnects...  I have no idea what I'm doing, but I kinda like the deck I made.  I think.  I don't really know. 

(http://i.imgur.com/UCIC0Lc.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/g4EinvL.png)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 02, 2014, 05:44:26 pm
So I'm going into arena, yay!  Only my third time in, but my second time didn't count because I lost all 3 due to disconnects...  I have no idea what I'm doing, but I kinda like the deck I made.  I think.  I don't really know. 

Quick advice, Pristess of Elrune is considered the worst card in the game. I assume you were not offered Fireballs or Polymorphs because those are very strong cards. But your mana curve is decent enough that you should get some wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 02, 2014, 05:59:51 pm
Do you guys like fresheater ghouls?  I almost never pick em.. I look at it and see a three drop that trades with nearly every two drop and not many 3 drops. I would never pick it over a raptor... I don't pick it over the 3/3 taunt, for instance.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 02, 2014, 06:15:49 pm
Do you guys like fresheater ghouls?  I almost never pick em.. I look at it and see a three drop that trades with nearly every two drop and not many 3 drops. I would never pick it over a raptor... I don't pick it over the 3/3 taunt, for instance.

It gets better the more one and two drops you have, especially 3/2s. If you can play it turn 3 and trade your two drop with theirs it threatens to get out of hand quickly.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 02, 2014, 06:27:03 pm
Quick advice, Pristess of Elrune is considered the worst card in the game.
By who? Every guide I've seen would not even place it in the lowest tier of cards. Examples:

From just straight analyzing the card, it doesn't seem unusable. At 6 mana, it's slow, but its base stats would be respectable for a 4 mana card, so it seems likely to go nearly 1-for-1 once you do get to play it. It's a bad card, but not nearly as horrible as, say, Goldshire Footman, which tends to die for nothing.

Edit: In AHoppy's deck, Stonetusk Boar is easily the worst card.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 02, 2014, 06:37:58 pm
Pristess of Elrune is considered the worst card in the game.

It's bad, but I definitely don't think it's the worst card in arena. It's bottom 10, but it's definitely better than Grimscale Oracle or Wisp for example because it can at least trade for another card. It's very mana inefficient (overpriced by about 2 mana), but arena games can get into turn 15+ at which point a couple mana doesn't actually make any difference and cards are what you care about.

Do you guys like fresheater ghouls?  I almost never pick em.. I look at it and see a three drop that trades with nearly every two drop and not many 3 drops. I would never pick it over a raptor... I don't pick it over the 3/3 taunt, for instance.

Flesheating Ghoul is decent. It's slightly below-average card. The thing is, there aren't a whole lot of neutral common 3-drops that survive vs Raptors. You just have to accept that if you play it turn 3, it's trading down. Usually what you expect out of your 3-drops is that it will trade with a Raptor turn 3, maybe gain advantage vs a Croc, and has potential to do something useful if you draw/play it later. Ghoul can sometimes be a 7/3 or something if you play it the turn you trade other minions. If your opponent doesn't have removal for it, it trades way up with an Ogre or something or deals a lot of face damage. I'd say it's the 8th best neutral common 3-drop.

1. Crusader
2. Golem
3. Cleric
4. Farseer
5. Raging Worgen
6. Acolyte
7. Wolfrider
8. Ghoul
9. Grizzly
10. Panther
11. Razorfen Hunter
(the rest are nearly unplayable)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 02, 2014, 06:40:15 pm
Do you guys like fresheater ghouls?  I almost never pick em.. I look at it and see a three drop that trades with nearly every two drop and not many 3 drops. I would never pick it over a raptor... I don't pick it over the 3/3 taunt, for instance.

I prefer salteater ghouls.  Tastier.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 02, 2014, 06:49:55 pm
Pristess of Elrune is considered the worst card in the game.

It's bad, but I definitely don't think it's the worst card in arena. It's bottom 10, but it's definitely better than Grimscale Oracle or Wisp for example because it can at least trade for another card. It's very mana inefficient (overpriced by about 2 mana), but arena games can get into turn 15+ at which point a couple mana doesn't actually make any difference and cards are what you care about.

In arena, yeah Grimscale and Wisp are worse, as are others, but Elrune is pretty weak. Yeah, worst card in the game is an overstatement though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 02, 2014, 10:41:18 pm
So I just drafted this and went 5-3:

LINK (http://imgur.com/zgvIYsX)
(Mountain Giant missing from the screenshot)

And all I can say is Worgen Infiltrator+Power Word:Shield is a really strong start.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 02, 2014, 11:09:59 pm
Just got my second epic. Alkir the Windlord. He's not the best, not as good as my Ragnaros, but he's fun.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 02, 2014, 11:57:15 pm
This Rogue just played Coin-Alarm o Bot-Backstab on turn 2.

Then, got a Spiteful Smith out of it, since I had no way to kill the Alarm-o-Bot.

...if I lose this game I'm going to be so upset.

Edit: Okay I won, all is right with the world.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 03, 2014, 12:02:08 am
Well, I'll never know how that worked... didn't get to play that deck at all.  3 disconnects, 3 losses...  I hate my school's internet
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 03, 2014, 12:02:22 am
And yeah, no fireballs
Edit: or polymorphs
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 03, 2014, 12:52:32 am

Good news: I don't think I'll ever have a worse draft in my future than this. http://arenamastery.com/2Cus
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 03, 2014, 01:01:17 am

Good news: I don't think I'll ever have a worse draft in my future than this. http://arenamastery.com/2Cus

Very bad. Still, I might have taken an arcane explosion. I did the whole "What I would choose" think on the site. Only a few difference, but wow you had some tough decisions between bad and worse cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 03, 2014, 01:02:23 am
That draft doesn't look too bad...you have a Flamestrike, which is better than none. You don't have many 2 drops you'd like to play on turn 2, but your 1 drops aren't bad, and your 3 drops are pretty nice. Your Youthful Brewmaster can combo with Scaret Crusader, or Dark Iron Dwarf, or Novice Engineer, or a nearly dead Imp Master, or Gnomish Inventor...basically you have lots of good battlecries or naturally long lasting cards to make it pretty good if you can afford to hold onto it.

The only issue is that your curve is really top heavy, but if you can hold on until the later turns then your deck starts becoming really solid. I wouldn't say you can get 12 wins with a deck like that, bad early game is killer at higher wins, but it could be worse.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 03, 2014, 09:07:26 am
Does that Arena Mastery auto track the arenas or are you obliged to manually choose what you chose?
I had a quick look at that selection and I think many of the first few choices I would have made differently- I rate Counterspell pretty highly- almost all the spells chosen you'd expect to be powerful in arena. But yes without really any of the great Mage spells, it's not a draft you should expect to get that high- but lowered expectations means every win is that much sweeter!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 03, 2014, 09:08:34 am
:S just got my thousandth win! Did not really realise I had been playing that much!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 03, 2014, 09:42:21 am
Does that Arena Mastery auto track the arenas or are you obliged to manually choose what you chose?
I had a quick look at that selection and I think many of the first few choices I would have made differently- I rate Counterspell pretty highly- almost all the spells chosen you'd expect to be powerful in arena. But yes without really any of the great Mage spells, it's not a draft you should expect to get that high- but lowered expectations means every win is that much sweeter!

I haven't used Arena Mastery in a while, mainly because I haven't been playing that much arena. But when I did you had to enter the results manually. It wasn't that tedious, though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 03, 2014, 10:15:44 am

Good news: I don't think I'll ever have a worse draft in my future than this. http://arenamastery.com/2Cus
Ouch. Flamestrike is the only good (or any?) removal you were ever offered. The only picks that stood out to me as ones that I'd definitely not make:
Because of skipping a couple passable 4's, you end up with a somewhat 5+ heavy deck, which makes me think it'll be slow.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 03, 2014, 12:06:32 pm
After drafting a semi-reasonable Rogue, I have just two words:  Fucking Mages.

(1-3, every loss to a Mage)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 03, 2014, 03:58:48 pm

Good news: I don't think I'll ever have a worse draft in my future than this. http://arenamastery.com/2Cus

Bad news: If you play enough, you probably will :(

There are a few small things I might have done differently, but the bigger ones are:
5. Croc > Healer. Healer is an okay card, but it's below average and you already have one. There are quite a few really good 5-drops and you don't want so many total. The more Healers you take now, the less Mercenaries, Warlords, Silver Hand Knights, Commandos, and Tigers you can take later. Croc is really not that bad. I've seen lists where people (Trump) rank it really low, but it trades evenly with Raptors, which is mostly what you plan on doing with your 2-drop. It's important to have enough 2-drops.
14. Intellect > Novice. blueblump covered this
19. At this point, you might need to start worrying about curve. You already have 7/18 cards at 5+, plus an pure draw card. You need the small stuff more than you need another 5-drop, even as good as Silver Hand Knight.
24. Now you really need the Apprentice more than the Mercenary.
25. Ancient Brewmaster is a good card. I'm not sure if you're now panicking about curve, but Argent Squire is pretty bad without a bunch of buffs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 03, 2014, 06:45:49 pm
I am gonna try out this fancy arena mastery thing.  But I play in spanish now so it's hard to remember the english name of some of the cards.   Like what am I supposed to enter for this 1/3 dude that slowly improves other minions attack.  He's Raidsmith Rager right? or was it Ironforge Swordsmith.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 03, 2014, 07:07:53 pm
http://arenamastery.com/6lo6
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 03, 2014, 07:30:59 pm

Good news: I don't think I'll ever have a worse draft in my future than this. http://arenamastery.com/2Cus
I got 7 wins with this horrible horrible deck!  Aww yeah!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 04, 2014, 10:43:30 am
http://arenamastery.com/6lo6

Why do you hate Cobra? You picked Blademaster and Counterspell over it!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 04, 2014, 05:53:02 pm
It's not very often that Blademaster fights a minion and doesn't kill it.  It's more often that Cobra's lack of pressure loses you a game you could have sealed off with fireballs. 

Counterspell beats Flamestrike, Cobra overextends -into- Flamestrike. Arena meta has shifted towards Flamestrike dominance, imo, after those warrior nerfs nudged the mage up over everything.  In the actual arena run 1/3rd of my opponents were mages.

Since I already had the blademaster, harvest golem, and flesheating by the point I saw counterspell vs. cobra it was a landslide for the counterspell, there's no need to be fearful about hitting my turn 3 play.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 04, 2014, 06:00:14 pm
What's the base damage on Fireball?  8?

Fireball + Flamestrike + Poly + all the freezes...just can't beat the mages.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 04, 2014, 08:52:32 pm
What's the base damage on Fireball?  8?

6 for 4 mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 05, 2014, 12:10:04 pm
It's not very often that Blademaster fights a minion and doesn't kill it.  It's more often that Cobra's lack of pressure loses you a game you could have sealed off with fireballs. 

Counterspell beats Flamestrike, Cobra overextends -into- Flamestrike. Arena meta has shifted towards Flamestrike dominance, imo, after those warrior nerfs nudged the mage up over everything.  In the actual arena run 1/3rd of my opponents were mages.

Since I already had the blademaster, harvest golem, and flesheating by the point I saw counterspell vs. cobra it was a landslide for the counterspell, there's no need to be fearful about hitting my turn 3 play.

I'm not sure how you decided the blademaster > cobra situation is "more common". It seems to me that situations where you get multiple face hits with a specific 3-drop, come within 4 damage of lethal and then lose are less common than situations where your opponent plays a minion with 5+ health that swings the game. But of course it usually doesn't matter either way.

Counterspell, however, has to be wrong. Sure the best case is that it counters flamestrike, but if your opponent is in a position where he has to play flamestrike without checking the secret, you're in a pretty good spot already. So the counterspell can't help your win % that much. And outside of this situation, Counterspell is just a waste of a card in your hand. Cobra, otoh, can be played almost any time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 05, 2014, 02:27:38 pm
It's hard to value secrets in arena. One thing Counterspell has going for it is that your opponent is more likely to guess Mirror Entity first (which they should, since it's Common), and next may test for Vaporize. The net effect is that your opponent may end up playing a significantly suboptimal turn.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 05, 2014, 02:36:49 pm
The opponent opening I most fear in arena now is Paladin's Argent Protector play where they use a divine shielded raptor to kill my raptor. It's especially brutal when they are P2 because then it's 100% mana-efficient:
P1 T1: pass
P2 T1: coin raptor
P1 T2: raptor
P2 T2: argent protector, kill P1's raptor

The combination of tempo swing and the 0-for-1 nearly seals the game right there. There are other more devastating opening plays (getting a coined sword of justice oozed, for example), but much less frequent than this one.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 05, 2014, 03:06:35 pm
The opponent opening I most fear in arena now is Paladin's Argent Protector play where they use a divine shielded raptor to kill my raptor. It's especially brutal when they are P2 because then it's 100% mana-efficient:
P1 T1: pass
P2 T1: coin raptor
P1 T2: raptor
P2 T2: argent protector, kill P1's raptor

The combination of tempo swing and the 0-for-1 nearly seals the game right there. There are other more devastating opening plays (getting a coined sword of justice oozed, for example), but much less frequent than this one.

You are overestimating the importance of that. That can be mitigated in future in multitude of ways.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 05, 2014, 05:40:36 pm
It's hard to value secrets in arena. One thing Counterspell has going for it is that your opponent is more likely to guess Mirror Entity first (which they should, since it's Common), and next may test for Vaporize. The net effect is that your opponent may end up playing a significantly suboptimal turn.

Yeah, maybe their turn is a bit suboptimal.. but at least they're not playing counterspell!

I dislike all of the mage secrets very much.  I'll play some of them occasionally because there clearly are worse cards, so will sometimes end up with Mirror Entity, Vaporize, or Counterspell, but I'm never happy about it.  They're just too easy to play around most of the time.  For all the times you win because you counter the flamestrike they just had to play into your secret, you'll lose 3 games because you had a card that didn't do anything.  That's my experience with it, at least.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 05, 2014, 07:33:47 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 05, 2014, 08:22:27 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 05, 2014, 08:55:47 pm
Are people crafting Legendaries?  Or buying lots of packs?

I'm excited to get epics in my packs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 05, 2014, 09:08:41 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 05, 2014, 10:18:17 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 05, 2014, 10:21:25 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

:(

Now I am sad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 05, 2014, 10:25:07 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?

It could be people at the beginning of the season still, or it could be people trying out new decks or something. I'd say that people with more golden legendaries are generally better, but a bad player with 3 legendaries will usually lose to a good player with 0.

My main mage deck has 3 legendaries (Thalnos, Antonidas, and Ragnaros), and it caps out at around rank 13 or 14 because it can't deal with hunters at all.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 05, 2014, 10:41:48 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 05, 2014, 11:12:59 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.

Indeed.  Remember that just 6 wins puts you in the 90th %ile.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 06, 2014, 01:36:59 am

In my 13th arena run, I got my first 12-win arena deck! And even did it with room to spare: 12-1

http://arenamastery.com/jRfq

I think the Ice combo was the key: Water Elemental/Frost Elemental/Frostbolt/Ice Lance. The best moment was in the final game, with 4 health left, Polymorphing his Tirion Fordring and coming back to win. Either that or topdecking Acidic Swamp Ooze when another Paladin coined out Sword of Justice.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 04:33:19 am
Today I had a guy in arena play 4 Ironbark Protectors, back-to-back, 4 turns in a row.  ;D (Managed to win still).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 08:06:55 am
Save dust for Legendaries or spend on rares that I need to make some decks (Hunter's Bow, Imp Masters..) ?
 Got around 500.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 06, 2014, 12:47:10 pm
I've been using it on Rares to complete decks despite the fact that some Legendaries are really good, multiple rares are probably better. That's just me though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 06, 2014, 01:00:33 pm
Rares are probably better. Legendaries are good, but just 1 Legendary can't make a deck good. The various other cards are the strongest point of a deck and the legendaries are the cherry on top.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 01:15:48 pm
I need like Sword of Justice, 2s Eaglehorn Bows, Aldor Peacekeeper/Imp Master, prolly some Young Priestesses as well.

I also need Leeroy, and probably Black Knight, and in long term - Rag/Ysera.


I can, also, disenchant The Beast (not too attached to it) and Golden Avenging Wrath for some Dust, but I do need Wrath in a deck, so gonna have to wait till I open the regular ones.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 06, 2014, 03:09:20 pm
If you're playing for the long term, crafting Legendaries > crafting Epics > crafting Rares, just because it will save you dust when you accidentally open the rares you crafted.

In the short term, if you want a good deck now, craft any Epics you need first, then Rares on a case by case basis. There are some legendaries which are really nice and hard to find budget versions of (like Leeroy in any aggro deck, arguably Thalnos as well), but you don't need too many.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 06, 2014, 03:59:57 pm
It's very hard to determine what the best crafting strategy is, as it really depends on what you want. You know a legenedary is 2 epics or 4 rares, but without having played with the decks you plan on making, it's hard to say how much impact each of the cards will have. One of the worst feelings is saving up 1600 dust for some legendary, putting it in a deck, and immediately realizing you don't actually like the deck. If there's cards you might want 2 of, those are nice to craft, since you're not likely to open 2 of them that soon, and you can kind of see how the singleton copy works out.

I need like Sword of Justice, 2s Eaglehorn Bows, Aldor Peacekeeper/Imp Master, prolly some Young Priestesses as well.

I also need Leeroy, and probably Black Knight, and in long term - Rag/Ysera.

Of these cards, I think Leeroy and Aldor are the biggest overall impact cards in general. Leeroy can really open up making a lot of different decks that simply wouldn't work without him, and Aldor is just plain good like all the time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 04:03:52 pm
I got Eaglehorn bows for now, as I do want to play a Secret Based Hunter, and it loses a lot of its power without the bow.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 06, 2014, 05:13:53 pm
I got Eaglehorn bows for now, as I do want to play a Secret Based Hunter, and it loses a lot of its power without the bow.

Oh joy, another stupid hunter deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 06, 2014, 05:26:22 pm
I got Eaglehorn bows for now, as I do want to play a Secret Based Hunter, and it loses a lot of its power without the bow.

Oh joy, another stupid hunter deck.

I like my stupid hunter deck. :P It's very effective without needing Legendaries or Epics.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 06, 2014, 06:08:03 pm
I got Eaglehorn bows for now, as I do want to play a Secret Based Hunter, and it loses a lot of its power without the bow.

Oh joy, another stupid hunter deck.

I like my stupid hunter deck. :P It's very effective without needing Legendaries or Epics.

I think it's acceptable to play Hunter if you aren't playing it super aggro. I have a sort of control Hunter, and it's fun to play without being annoying.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 06, 2014, 06:16:44 pm
What annoys me about Hunters is that there aren't really any one true counters. If you drop lots of minions, you lose to Unleash and Explosive Trap. If you drop fewer, tougher minions, you lose to Deadly Shot and Misdirection. Hunter's Mark can get through big taunts, Kill Command gives lots of reach...

It's not that Hunters can't be beat, it's more that Hunters have a good answer to most counter-strategies, and you have to hope they don't draw the right counter cards. I suppose "no strong counters" is a requirement for most good decks though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 06, 2014, 06:49:13 pm
^The counter to aggro Hunter is healing/taunt, and the counter to mid-range Hunter is combo decks, which rely on spells rather than minions. The devs have made it clear though that they want the game to focus on minion-based decks, which is why they nerfed freeze, and now they're nerfing UTH to 3 mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 07:46:36 pm
^The counter to aggro Hunter is healing/taunt, and the counter to mid-range Hunter is combo decks, which rely on spells rather than minions. The devs have made it clear though that they want the game to focus on minion-based decks, which is why they nerfed freeze, and now they're nerfing UTH to 3 mana.

Why didn't I read this before I bought the Bows. Sigh.

I am playing midrange.

And how are things like Lock/Gaints or ControlWarrior minion-based? XD
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 08:44:35 pm
Dear opponent I'm sorry..


For dropping 2 Molten Giants turn 8 in the Arena.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 06, 2014, 09:16:28 pm
Dear opponent I'm sorry..


For dropping 2 Molten Giants turn 8 in the Arena.

I had a Level 20 Mage drop 3 legendaries in 3 turns on me in Ranked.  The 8/8 one that can't attack, some super special Spell Damage one that gave him free Fireball cards every time he cast a spell, and some other one that was just to rub it in.

I had him down to 3 health and then couldn't finish him off in the face of that.  Had I drawn a Swipe or Starfire...

But really, those 3 legendaries and only level 20?????
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 06, 2014, 09:19:34 pm
Standard Mage stuff. :P

Prolly took a pause of HS.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 06, 2014, 09:27:02 pm
Are there any Pro Druids here?  I'm running a modified ramp up swamplock deck, but I'm really lacking the payoff cards at the top mana costs to finish the job.  I'm finding I get opponents down to single digit life in the first 6-8 turns, but then I'm not drawing enough/drawing big baddies to shut them down when my opponents invariably drop their own awesome.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 06, 2014, 10:39:06 pm
I got Eaglehorn bows for now, as I do want to play a Secret Based Hunter, and it loses a lot of its power without the bow.

Oh joy, another stupid hunter deck.

Quote
Oh joy, another stupid Goons deck.

Play to win within the constraints of the game, right? Why wouldn't you play what wins?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 06, 2014, 11:19:26 pm
Are there any Pro Druids here?  I'm running a modified ramp up swamplock deck, but I'm really lacking the payoff cards at the top mana costs to finish the job.  I'm finding I get opponents down to single digit life in the first 6-8 turns, but then I'm not drawing enough/drawing big baddies to shut them down when my opponents invariably drop their own awesome.

Could you post your decklist?  I'll try and help if I can, with the caveat that I'm not quite pro!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 07, 2014, 12:37:17 am
Are there any Pro Druids here?  I'm running a modified ramp up swamplock deck, but I'm really lacking the payoff cards at the top mana costs to finish the job.  I'm finding I get opponents down to single digit life in the first 6-8 turns, but then I'm not drawing enough/drawing big baddies to shut them down when my opponents invariably drop their own awesome.

I used to be a pro Druid, but then I took an arrow t... not, wait.

I used to be a pro Druid, but life caught up and tanking raids just wasn't in the cards any longer.

That likely doesn't help you with Hearthstone though.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 07, 2014, 01:16:31 am
Also:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2014/05/05/hearthboned
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 07, 2014, 04:28:05 am
Arena, Druid, First pick of the draft:

Force of Nature, Ancient of Lore, Ancient of War.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 07, 2014, 04:41:10 am
Arena, Druid, First pick of the draft:

Force of Nature, Ancient of Lore, Ancient of War.

Thoughts?

Force of Nature: Good to end the game with if aggressive, good to clear the enemy board in a more control deck. Nice, but I don't think it compares to the other 2

Ancient of Lore: What I'd pick. The 2 cards are ridiculously good, and although the healing isn't as good as a big taunt in arena, it can help if you really need it to.

Ancient of War: I like this card a lot, and it can stop a lot of boards in their tracks, but given that it's the first pack you'll be likely to see an Ironbark Protector if you need a big taunt.

Roughly, Force of Nature shares similar roles as Starfire or Starfall, and Ancient of War could be replaced by Ironbark, but nothing replaces Ancient of Lore.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 07, 2014, 10:20:48 am
Yeah, Ancient of Lore is one of Druid's best cards. One of my best arena runs was fueled by 2 Ancients of Lore.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 07, 2014, 10:33:49 am
And how are things like Lock/Gaints or ControlWarrior minion-based? XD
The "problem" isn't decks without minions, it's decks that force your opponent to play minionless. They think some portion of the customer base will be turned off by not getting to use minions.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 07, 2014, 11:52:42 am
And how are things like Lock/Gaints or ControlWarrior minion-based? XD
The "problem" isn't decks without minions, it's decks that force your opponent to play minionless. They think some portion of the customer base will be turned off by not getting to use minions.

Also, holding minions back to not play into UTH just feels bad in a way that holding back minions to not play into flame strike doesn't. At least that's my experience
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 07, 2014, 12:14:55 pm
After realizing my hunter deck is pretty strong against Murlocks I decided to embrace it by removing my Arcane Shot and replacing it with a Crab. (It's not a terrible addition as it's a Beast anyways).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 07, 2014, 12:51:45 pm
After realizing my hunter deck is pretty strong against Murlocks I decided to embrace it by removing my Arcane Shot and replacing it with a Crab. (It's not a terrible addition as it's a Beast anyways).

nom nom nom. That should teach those filthy murlocks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 08, 2014, 03:55:11 am
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.

Some of you guys haven't done your first 12 win runs yet? 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 08, 2014, 04:06:32 am
I feel like my first 12 win took a lot longer than it took other people I know IRL to get. Something like ~400 arena games for it to happen, with two 11 win runs in between (and one 9 win when the cap was 9 wins.)

My play in arena has shifted between:
1. To the face! Trade only when my minion will live, given the exact current board state
2. Wait, buffers exist. Trade all the things!
3. Case by case basis, but a slight bias to assuming they don't have the buffer/answer and trying to fit in more damage.

Now, I'm noticing I'm losing a lot more because of not making the trade than because I've missed out on some damage, so I'm trying to trade more often + recognize when my board is strong enough I don't have to play more, in case of board clears.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 08, 2014, 04:22:54 am
^The counter to aggro Hunter is healing/taunt, and the counter to mid-range Hunter is combo decks, which rely on spells rather than minions. The devs have made it clear though that they want the game to focus on minion-based decks, which is why they nerfed freeze, and now they're nerfing UTH to 3 mana.

I'm not sure the UTH nerf has to do with whether the game focuses on minion-based decks or not.  UTH itself is a pretty minion based deck, and zoo did ok in the Hunter heavy environment.  Dire Wolph alpha next to a shieldbearer can absorb so many doggies that you could still win games where you allowed your opponent to Unleash3 or even Unleash4. 

I think they nerfed UTH for the reason that they stated, which was that the backend winrates and usage rates were too high for hunter.

I don't disagree that they want the game to be minion based though.  The freeze mage nerf is a sign of that, and so is the reluctant zoo nerfs when zoo has been prevalent since, forever.  Minion based stuff like Shattered Sun Cleric, DoA, Imps, Dark Iron Dwarf, have always been nerfed gently and reluctantly, non minion based stuff like Dalaran Mage, Battle Rage, Cone of Cold, and Conceal have been nerfed swiftly and heavily.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 08, 2014, 05:17:29 am
It reminds me of the "new wave" of Magic design.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played M:tG in a long time. Consider my last experience to be Innistrad, for people who do.)

There was an article by Mark Rosewater (lead designer), which roughly boiled down to, "reward the player for what they would have normally done." This means that you reward playing cards, using all your mana, amassing an army, etc. In previous MtG sets, there were mechanics where creatures got bigger if you kept your hand above 7 cards (which you have to be trying to do, and reduces board presence), or if you had all your lands tapped (which puts you at a deliberate disadvantage because you won't have mana on your opponent's turn to react.) Those sets were pretty bad. The newer sets generally have mechanics that don't force you to take a downside. Good players will recognize when taking the downside is worth it, but it feels much better when you can just yolo-play everything.

Blizzard's nerfing strategy reminds me of this. People like playing creatures, people like actually getting to use their creatures, and according to this philosophy cards that allow someone to almost entirely ignore creatures need to be balanced carefully and should be good, but not overpowering.

This isn't an attack on that philosophy; I actually agree with much of it, and for a Dominion analogy I'm a lot gladder that buying actions is good a lot of the time in Dominion. However, I don't like how Blizzard goes for more heavy-handed nerfs against strategies that are less fun against new players. I'd prefer more frequent small nerfs, it tends to be harder to justify buffing a card until long after it has dropped out of the metagame.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 08, 2014, 10:26:49 am
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.

Some of you guys haven't done your first 12 win runs yet? 

LOL no.  Um... my record is 7.

Edit:  Note this is partially because I won't pay to get to the arena, so without a major gold infusion it's quests for me.  So I might do an Arena a week on average.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 08, 2014, 11:57:58 am
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.

Some of you guys haven't done your first 12 win runs yet? 

LOL no.  Um... my record is 7.

Edit:  Note this is partially because I won't pay to get to the arena, so without a major gold infusion it's quests for me.  So I might do an Arena a week on average.

I've done a 9 or 10 run, but not 12 yet. I think I just don't play Hearthstone as heavily as some other people do here.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 08, 2014, 02:08:03 pm
Focus group research for magic showed that creature based metas sell packs best, so it makes sense for Blizz to prefer new world order philosophy
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 08, 2014, 02:23:43 pm
Apparently people are still filtering their way up in ranked... I just played someone who dropped not one but three golden legendaries.  Followed by someone who played three non-golden legendaries.

Edit:  at Rank 19.

Im just got to rank 15 and I have 1 or 2 legendaries in all my decks.

o.O

I have a total of one legendary (class-specific) and like three epics so far.  I cannot imagine how anyone can have multiple golden legendaries without either spending a bunch of cash, or doing really, really well at arena... in which case they really shouldn't be near rank 20 should they?
Doing well in arena is so easy though.  Everyone in arena is bad

The arena is everyone, and you're also probably very good at drafting decks. So to you everyone is bad. To me it's 50/50. To Kirian maybe it's another ratio, but certainly getting 12 wins is not super easy because we would all have gotten it already.

Also, someone has to lose in the arena. Not everyone can win.

Some of you guys haven't done your first 12 win runs yet? 

LOL no.  Um... my record is 7.

Edit:  Note this is partially because I won't pay to get to the arena, so without a major gold infusion it's quests for me.  So I might do an Arena a week on average.

I've done a 9 or 10 run, but not 12 yet. I think I just don't play Hearthstone as heavily as some other people do here.

Ive gotten 8 win. I also don't spend money for runs though, so uts usually one run every day or two.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 08, 2014, 02:26:21 pm
Focus group research for magic showed that creature based metas sell packs best, so it makes sense for Blizz to prefer new world order philosophy

Source? (if this was a joke that I misunderstood you can ignore)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 08, 2014, 02:56:24 pm
Focus group research for magic showed that creature based metas sell packs best, so it makes sense for Blizz to prefer new world order philosophy

Source? (if this was a joke that I misunderstood you can ignore)

It doesn't sound like a joke to me.. it's exactly what I would expect.  Probably one of Mark Rosewater's (He's magic's lead designer) articles.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Watno on May 08, 2014, 03:23:21 pm
It took me roughly three weeks from creating my account to getting 12 wins. I didn't pay anything, but played quite a lot.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 08, 2014, 03:49:21 pm
It took me roughly three weeks from creating my account to getting 12 wins. I didn't pay anything, but played quite a lot.

I dont think Im terrbile at arena, but my runs usually end up like my last one, where I lost my first 2 games, thought I drafted terribly, then won 5 in a row. Sometimes I play 4 hunters and Warriors in a row, then sometimes its all mages and wins are much harder.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 08, 2014, 06:30:00 pm
It's very hard to determine what the best crafting strategy is, as it really depends on what you want. You know a legenedary is 2 epics or 4 rares, but without having played with the decks you plan on making, it's hard to say how much impact each of the cards will have. One of the worst feelings is saving up 1600 dust for some legendary, putting it in a deck, and immediately realizing you don't actually like the deck. If there's cards you might want 2 of, those are nice to craft, since you're not likely to open 2 of them that soon, and you can kind of see how the singleton copy works out.


The fact that there is no sandbox mode (friends only) or any way to test cards without spending lots of dust is quite annoying. In MTG you can always proxy up.

That and 9 decks only, which really slows you down when you want to test slight variations of certain decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 08, 2014, 06:34:02 pm
Arena is kindof a place you can test cards as you can eventually try out all cards given enough time. It's not necessarily the best place for it, but it's how I've played with most Legendaries that I've used. (I only have Gelbin and Cenarius). So you can get a feel for cards that way.

Arena is how I learned that I had no idea how to use Lorewalker Cho properly, why oh why, didn't I pick Nat Pagle?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 08, 2014, 09:03:41 pm
Arena is kindof a place you can test cards as you can eventually try out all cards given enough time. It's not necessarily the best place for it, but it's how I've played with most Legendaries that I've used. (I only have Gelbin and Cenarius). So you can get a feel for cards that way.

Arena is how I learned that I had no idea how to use Lorewalker Cho properly, why oh why, didn't I pick Nat Pagle?

Lo Walker Cho is just not that good. In arena basically anything else is better than him. But even in constructed you never see him. Nat Pagle is ok, but still can whiff.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 09, 2014, 02:56:40 am
I'm not sure the UTH nerf has to do with whether the game focuses on minion-based decks or not.
It was one of their stated reasons for the nerf:
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/12673778812#1 (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/forum/topic/12673778812#1)
Quote
We do like the idea of decks that have a really big turn and pull off a sweet combo, but when playing against Hunter decks, you may feel punished too much for playing minions. Playing minions is one of the key, fun pieces of the overall Hearthstone puzzle, and feeling like your options are limited by the opponent creates a play experience that may not be particularly enjoyable.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 09, 2014, 04:06:05 am
Arena is kindof a place you can test cards as you can eventually try out all cards given enough time. It's not necessarily the best place for it, but it's how I've played with most Legendaries that I've used. (I only have Gelbin and Cenarius). So you can get a feel for cards that way.

Arena is how I learned that I had no idea how to use Lorewalker Cho properly, why oh why, didn't I pick Nat Pagle?

That only helps with evaluating cards in a vacuum, and it means very little in constructed.

For example, I have the Zoolock list. Now, I don't have Young Priestesses, so I use Blood Imps instead. I cannot evaluate how much more powerful YP is and whether she is worth it without buying her. It dies to anything unlike the imp, but it also trades up and hits for two. And so.

Or, I have ~4 swappable spots in my hunter deck that I need to find the best cards to fit. There is no way for me to test, for example, how good Snake Trap actually is (without buying it, and it's I believe an epic). How often does it trigger in a meaningful way etc.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 09, 2014, 04:31:58 am
I can save you time, and say that Snake Trap starts out good when people don't know about it. Then it gets worse as people play around it. Then it gets slightly better because who plays Snake Trap? The dream of Buzzard -> Snake Trap fails against any 1 damage ping, which is really easy (Mage, a good Knife Juggler, Whirlwind, any board clear.)

I don't think it's worth the dust, Explosive/Freezing/Misdirection should be good enough and you can use other cards instead, but it's cute.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 09, 2014, 04:54:24 am
A friend of mine somehow managed to amass 9 Unleashes the Hound from Arena rewards, and popped them for 280 dust after the nerf. #value
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 09, 2014, 04:58:35 am
I can save you time, and say that Snake Trap starts out good when people don't know about it. Then it gets worse as people play around it. Then it gets slightly better because who plays Snake Trap? The dream of Buzzard -> Snake Trap fails against any 1 damage ping, which is really easy (Mage, a good Knife Juggler, Whirlwind, any board clear.)

I don't think it's worth the dust, Explosive/Freezing/Misdirection should be good enough and you can use other cards instead, but it's cute.

I was just taking an example, but yeah, nobody slams into Buzzard if you have a secret out.

Misdirection proved to be quite bad, IMHO, I took it out. It usually done just a part of explosive trap's job (kill minions or damage opponent), rarely worked better than it. Luckily I did have it already and didn't have to waste dust to test it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2014, 08:23:54 am
Quick question:  Should I be disenchanting more cards, or should I keep my Pokemon-esque mentality?

I'm thinking in particular some of the terribad cards I've collected (like Secretkeeper).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 09, 2014, 08:36:45 am
Quick question:  Should I be disenchanting more cards, or should I keep my Pokemon-esque mentality?

I'm thinking in particular some of the terribad cards I've collected (like Secretkeeper).

Personally I only disenchant cards I have more than 2 of, even "awful" ones. I like trying lots of kinds of decks, and who knows what tomorrow holds? Maybe the next batch of cards has something that makes Secretkeeper a valuable role player -- I'd hate to not be able to try the deck because I wanted that 40 dust.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2014, 09:54:38 am
Good:  Drafting two Twilight Drakes

Bad:  Topdecking both with no cards in hand.

http://arenamastery.com/VZMo

Edit:  Game 3, I have two taunts and 15 damage on the table.  Rogue topdecks fucking Deathwing.  Please, guys, tell me how fucking bad I am at arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 09, 2014, 09:56:58 am
Those links don't work -- you have to use the Share Arena link.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 09, 2014, 10:40:27 am
Good:  Drafting two Twilight Drakes

Bad:  Topdecking both with no cards in hand.

http://arenamastery.com/VZMo

Edit:  Game 3, I have two taunts and 15 damage on the table.  Rogue topdecks fucking Deathwing.  Please, guys, tell me how fucking bad I am at arena.

Deathwing wins games, especially Arena games. It's kinda like UtH in that it punishes you for playing creatures. It's vulnerable to single target creature killers, but the Deathwing player can usually force their opponent to play those out of their hand if you're playing aggressively enough. It's also not realistic to play as if your opponent has a Deathwing since it's a Legendary. I think the card is kinda borked personally, in Arena anyways, in constructed it would probably lose to a beatdown.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 09, 2014, 11:05:40 am
Finally came out of way too many 4-3 with a 8-3, which was a very drunk draft too.  ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 09, 2014, 11:16:37 am
Finally came out of way too many 4-3 with a 8-3, which was a very drunk draft too.  ;D

I keep getting the impression that who you play matters so much in the arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 09, 2014, 11:49:57 am
The problem with Deathwing, even in arena, is that a significant portion of games are over before turn 10.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 09, 2014, 11:51:14 am
Good:  Drafting two Twilight Drakes

Bad:  Topdecking both with no cards in hand.

http://arenamastery.com/VZMo

Edit:  Game 3, I have two taunts and 15 damage on the table.  Rogue topdecks fucking Deathwing.  Please, guys, tell me how fucking bad I am at arena.

Deathwing wins games, especially Arena games. It's kinda like UtH in that it punishes you for playing creatures. It's vulnerable to single target creature killers, but the Deathwing player can usually force their opponent to play those out of their hand if you're playing aggressively enough. It's also not realistic to play as if your opponent has a Deathwing since it's a Legendary. I think the card is kinda borked personally, in Arena anyways, in constructed it would probably lose to a beatdown.

pops and I have had disagreements about how strong Deathwing is in arena. He has at some point said it's the single best card in arena, and I've maintained that it's a slightly-above-average legendary.

It's brutal when it beats you. You're looking at a 12/12 and you can't do anything while it hits you in the face and kills you. You think "what could I have possibly done?" But if you put yourself on the other side of the table, it's a bit less impressive. You don't know how many games that guy died without being able to play Deathwing since it costs 10 mana. And then there are those games where the opponent has a single-target removal or taunt+other cards in hand to race you before you can face hit twice. Any sort of follow-up is purely topdeck-based since you give up your whole hand to play Deathwing, so if your opponent hasn't been dumping his hand, he probably has more threats than you can deal with.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 09, 2014, 11:53:26 am
I almost never play Warrior, but having two quests that are get five wins with Warrior + x, made me construct a deck, which led me to one of the most satisfying game moments I've had with Hearthstone.

I've built a deck around enraging creatures, berserkers and the basic Warrior weapons I have. I'm playing against a Mage deck, which is already nice because my deck discourages her from using her hero power. I have a Frothing Berserker out at 3 and she couldn't immediately deal with it, I buffed it with a SSC and have been exchanging creatures to protect it as it grows (she doesn't appear to have a Polymorph in hand at 4 mana). By 5 it's really threatening at 8/5, and I drop my gurabashi berserker. I guess she didn't have much to do that was useful in her hand because she makes the worst play possible, dropping a Mad Bomber. All the shots hit my Gurabashi. Long pause. "That was a mistake." She resigns immediately.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 09, 2014, 12:12:34 pm
Good:  Drafting two Twilight Drakes

Bad:  Topdecking both with no cards in hand.

http://arenamastery.com/VZMo

Edit:  Game 3, I have two taunts and 15 damage on the table.  Rogue topdecks fucking Deathwing.  Please, guys, tell me how fucking bad I am at arena.

Deathwing wins games, especially Arena games. It's kinda like UtH in that it punishes you for playing creatures. It's vulnerable to single target creature killers, but the Deathwing player can usually force their opponent to play those out of their hand if you're playing aggressively enough. It's also not realistic to play as if your opponent has a Deathwing since it's a Legendary. I think the card is kinda borked personally, in Arena anyways, in constructed it would probably lose to a beatdown.

pops and I have had disagreements about how strong Deathwing is in arena. He has at some point said it's the single best card in arena, and I've maintained that it's a slightly-above-average legendary.

It's brutal when it beats you. You're looking at a 12/12 and you can't do anything while it hits you in the face and kills you. You think "what could I have possibly done?" But if you put yourself on the other side of the table, it's a bit less impressive. You don't know how many games that guy died without being able to play Deathwing since it costs 10 mana. And then there are those games where the opponent has a single-target removal or taunt+other cards in hand to race you before you can face hit twice. Any sort of follow-up is purely topdeck-based since you give up your whole hand to play Deathwing, so if your opponent hasn't been dumping his hand, he probably has more threats than you can deal with.

Well it's no Ragnaros or Ysera, but I personally think it's excellent. I'd probably consider it on par with Gruul or Sylvanas in Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2014, 12:46:13 pm
So ended up 5-3 on that one.  My last game the Druid drops Cairne, which I have to just beat up, and is replaced with Baine, who gets Starfired.  All right, can't be too bad, right?  Then he drops Ancient of War: 5/10 Taunt.  OK, that's a bit more annoying.  I'm able to get it down after two turns and a couple of minion deaths.  Then he drops Ironbark Protector (8/8 Taunt).  All through this, as I lose minions to huge Taunters, he's plinking me for 1 with Shapeshift.  Then: Novice Engineer and Mark of Nature (2/8 Taunt).  Then a Shieldmasta, just for good measure.

All of that stuff while I'm in topdeck mode and can't draw my 7s.  It was just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 09, 2014, 01:14:39 pm
Good:  Drafting two Twilight Drakes

Bad:  Topdecking both with no cards in hand.

http://arenamastery.com/VZMo

Edit:  Game 3, I have two taunts and 15 damage on the table.  Rogue topdecks fucking Deathwing.  Please, guys, tell me how fucking bad I am at arena.

Deathwing wins games, especially Arena games. It's kinda like UtH in that it punishes you for playing creatures. It's vulnerable to single target creature killers, but the Deathwing player can usually force their opponent to play those out of their hand if you're playing aggressively enough. It's also not realistic to play as if your opponent has a Deathwing since it's a Legendary. I think the card is kinda borked personally, in Arena anyways, in constructed it would probably lose to a beatdown.

pops and I have had disagreements about how strong Deathwing is in arena. He has at some point said it's the single best card in arena, and I've maintained that it's a slightly-above-average legendary.

It's brutal when it beats you. You're looking at a 12/12 and you can't do anything while it hits you in the face and kills you. You think "what could I have possibly done?" But if you put yourself on the other side of the table, it's a bit less impressive. You don't know how many games that guy died without being able to play Deathwing since it costs 10 mana. And then there are those games where the opponent has a single-target removal or taunt+other cards in hand to race you before you can face hit twice. Any sort of follow-up is purely topdeck-based since you give up your whole hand to play Deathwing, so if your opponent hasn't been dumping his hand, he probably has more threats than you can deal with.

Well it's no Ragnaros or Ysera, but I personally think it's excellent. I'd probably consider it on par with Gruul or Sylvanas in Arena.

Huh.  I would absolutely say that Sylvanas is better than Ysera... in my opinion, it's probably the second strongest neutral legendary in Arena.

I've played with Ysera twice in arena, and have been underwhelmed by it.  It's a 9 drop that doesn't do anything the turn it comes down, so if you're dying, it doesn't do much.  Yeah, there aren't many legendaries that do much if you're dying, but I think the best ones that cost 8+ have to.  That's why I would prefer Rag and Deathwing to Ysera.

Sylvanas and Cairne are great because they cost 6, and will almost always get value.  They're worse on an empty board, yeah, but you won't lose nearly as many games from not being able to cast Sylvanas as you would by not being able to cast Ysera.

My rankings for neutral legendaries would probably be something like:

Rag > Sylvanas > Cairne > Black Knight > Deathwing > Baron Geddon > Ysera > Hogger > Illidan > Gruul.  Or something like that.  But I don't think Ysera is top tier, she just costs too much.  If you could guarantee Ysera Awakens every time, maybe, but when you draw laughing sister or nightmare with Ysera as your only creature, I just don't think that's good enough.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 09, 2014, 03:12:23 pm
I think Rag, Cairne, and Sylvanas are pretty clearly the best legendaries in arena. After that, i think it depends on what kind of deck you're going for. I think pops values Deathwing more than me because he plays much more aggressively than I do in general. If you get into topdeck mode, Deathwing is a pretty good draw, but if you're still competing for card advantage, Ysera or Onyxia is usually going to be better. They're also pretty good topdecks, while Deathwing is horrible for card advantage, which I think makes him much worse on average.

I'd say my overall (tentative -- I have to think more about this) rankings are:
rag > cairne > sylvanas > ysera > onyxia > black knight > geddon > hogger > leeroy > deathwing

It depends greatly on the deck though, like I said. There are plenty of situations where I'd pick Alexstrasza, Thalnos, Harrison, Greenskin, or Illidan over Deathwing or Leeroy.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 09, 2014, 10:57:08 pm
It is just me, or does it feel terribly wrong to draft a Mage without any Fireballs even being offered?

http://arenamastery.com/RJfJ

Game 2:  On T7, hunter plays Buzzard, Hyena, UTH.  I silence the 8/6 Hyena and kill another minion.  T8, he plays:  UTH, Hyena again (up to 10/7 this time).  WTF
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 10, 2014, 01:38:14 am
My first 12-win Arena, and 12-0 no less!  I think the defining moment was landing the following two 3-card combos in the same game:

Young Dragonhawk
Blessing of Wisdom
Blessing of Kings

Light's Justice
Spiteful Smith
Mad Bomber
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 10, 2014, 03:34:46 am
It is just me, or does it feel terribly wrong to draft a Mage without any Fireballs even being offered?

http://arenamastery.com/RJfJ

Game 2:  On T7, hunter plays Buzzard, Hyena, UTH.  I silence the 8/6 Hyena and kill another minion.  T8, he plays:  UTH, Hyena again (up to 10/7 this time).  WTF

Think of it as drafting Druid, and never seeing a Swipe.

Which just happened to me, btw. I did get 2 Ancients of Lore though, so I'm not complaining too much.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 10, 2014, 02:40:17 pm
It is just me, or does it feel terribly wrong to draft a Mage without any Fireballs even being offered?

http://arenamastery.com/RJfJ

Game 2:  On T7, hunter plays Buzzard, Hyena, UTH.  I silence the 8/6 Hyena and kill another minion.  T8, he plays:  UTH, Hyena again (up to 10/7 this time).  WTF

You really shouldnt rely on fireballs showing up. As long as you get some good damage spells then the draft can be good. You got some Arcane missiles, Blizzard, Flamestrike and a Polymorph. That's pretty good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 10, 2014, 04:18:28 pm
After regularly getting 5-8 arena wins a month ago, I'm 1-3 on my last 3 arenas.

Guess I'm one of those awful arena players pops loves to talk about.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 10, 2014, 10:22:27 pm
After regularly getting 5-8 arena wins a month ago, I'm 1-3 on my last 3 arenas.

Guess I'm one of those awful arena players pops loves to talk about.

Nah.  I think it's a log of rng with drafts.

I'm finally having my first good arena run, for example.  Just got win 8 in four turns:

1 - opponent passes
1 - coin out the 2/1 murloc and Leper Gnome
2 - 0/2 totem
2 - knife juggler, kill totem
3 - 1/1 totem
3 - Orc chick with boar, juggler kills totem
4 - demolisher
4 - Swipe demo, all attacks
5 - resign

That isn't the shaman's fault as a player -- clearly dome bad rng draws.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 11, 2014, 03:25:44 am
It is just me, or does it feel terribly wrong to draft a Mage without any Fireballs even being offered?

http://arenamastery.com/RJfJ

Game 2:  On T7, hunter plays Buzzard, Hyena, UTH.  I silence the 8/6 Hyena and kill another minion.  T8, he plays:  UTH, Hyena again (up to 10/7 this time).  WTF

Think of it as drafting Druid, and never seeing a Swipe.

Which just happened to me, btw. I did get 2 Ancients of Lore though, so I'm not complaining too much.

There are a lot of basic/common cards. You can't get offered all of them every arena. Any given card will only show up in maybe 60% of your arenas.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 11, 2014, 02:52:55 pm
This is one of the silliest arena decks I've drafted:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/mage#26:1;44:2;174:1;177:3;263:2;274:1;280:1;338:1;463:1;475:1;513:1;518:1;522:5;539:1;569:1;589:1;595:1;597:1;598:1;604:1;614:1;663:1; (http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/mage#26:1;44:2;174:1;177:3;263:2;274:1;280:1;338:1;463:1;475:1;513:1;518:1;522:5;539:1;569:1;589:1;595:1;597:1;598:1;604:1;614:1;663:1;)
It's not actually that great a deck, because it's short on quality minions, so although it's great at removing opponent minions, it has trouble translating that into actual board control.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 11, 2014, 05:11:39 pm
When the Druid you're facing plays Innervate-Harvest Golem on T1, you're gonna have a bad time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2014, 05:20:00 pm
When the Druid you're facing plays Innervate-Harvest Golem on T1, you're gonna have a bad time.

Thoughts on Inno x2 into Venture Co. merc on T1?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 05:24:48 pm
When the Druid you're facing plays Innervate-Harvest Golem on T1, you're gonna have a bad time.

Thoughts on Inno x2 into Venture Co. merc on T1?

Lots of fun!

Honestly, I don't think innervate into harvest golem is that good.  The reason harvest golem is good because it provides insane value.. and innervating it out causes it to lose value.  It's not big enough to put on the pressure to make it worth innervating out.  I'd rather wait a few turns to pump out a 5 drop or something.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2014, 05:28:42 pm
When the Druid you're facing plays Innervate-Harvest Golem on T1, you're gonna have a bad time.

Thoughts on Inno x2 into Venture Co. merc on T1?

Lots of fun!

Honestly, I don't think innervate into harvest golem is that good.  The reason harvest golem is good because it provides insane value.. and innervating it out causes it to lose value.  It's not big enough to put on the pressure to make it worth innervating out.  I'd rather wait a few turns to pump out a 5 drop or something.

If I had stats, I think my preference probably goes:

Inno 4 drop on T2 > 3 drop on T1 > 5 drop on T3.

Something like the 3/1 charge guy on T1, then MotW on T2 is pretty strong (except for mages).  Or the boar summoning girl.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 11, 2014, 05:29:45 pm
That's...ok- depends on the opponent lol. I've had Turn 3 Rags twice I think and lost both, it's so many cards from hand and a good remove buggers you. 7-5 on the board is a fair bit of damage but you won't be playing anything whilst it's up either.

I think (at risk of jinxing myself) I may just have had my best (!) arena draft ever; paladin- Tirion AND TBK. Two Truesilvers, two consecrates, equality, wild pyro, only bad card is a humility I had to take, and though a little low on 2's ( I like having lots) it is ok as long as I get a three too given am paladin.
Probably going to go 2-3 now I've said all this lol. Last time I had what I though was an epic shaman deck that happened. (the 2-3)

The multiple fireball deck is probably pretty fun!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 06:09:11 pm
I just won a game of arena where my paladin opponent cast 3 truesilvers and a divine favor for 7!  (My deck is quite insane, although I think he probably should have won.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 11, 2014, 06:14:44 pm
Had many (3-4?) good runs today, all 7-3 or better.

This one was particularity fun deck (1x Innervate missing from the pic):
 
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2cwo0g1.jpg

Notice 5 DotCs :P
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 11, 2014, 06:16:00 pm
Also, I addded everybody from TA's post, but nobody replied.

Either I did something wrong or you guys hate me  :'(

Is there supposed to be a space or so between the name and # ?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 06:17:57 pm
I never got one from you Grujah.. I just sent you one though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 06:21:16 pm
Wait, you're in Europe, right?  Lots of those names are probably american.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 11, 2014, 06:24:01 pm
I'm Lekkit #2695 EU

I'm currently playing RoS, but I wouldn't say no to a game of Hearthstone.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 11, 2014, 06:25:42 pm
The meta is mostly rogue, warrior, and handlock for me right now, so I've been trying to build an ooze priest that does well against the mean of those three.  I was hoping for some ideas, because i change a lot of cards constantly but feel really good about a lot of the core

[Panda Priest]
2x Circle of Healing
2x Northshire Cleric
2x Power word: Shield
2x Young Brewmaster
2x Acidic Swamp Ooze
2x Thoughsteal
2x Earthen Ring Farseer
2x Injured Blademaster
1x Big Game Hunter
2x Shadow Madness
2x Auchenai Soulpriest
2x Holy Fire
2x Argent Commander
5x incompletedness
[/deck]

The last five cards are what I keep screwing around with and can't decide on.  I really like the double panda playstyle in this meta, it's a toolboxy kind of effect: against warrior, you use the pandas on oozes so that you can destroy more weapons.  Against handlock, you use the pandas on big game hunter so you can destroy more giants.  Against leper gnome decks, you use the pandas on Earthen Ring Farseers to soak up more facecommands/faceballs/facefires.  Then against everything you have the possible 3/1 Auchenai pickup after a circle and a possible Shadowmadness panda (which has been really hilarious for turning handlock owls on their own drakes).

Normally I love pyromancers in priest but zoo is so unusually rare right now it hasn't been giving me milage.  I'd love some suggestions on what could fit in here.  I have every card and a pretty open mind about every card except Tauren Warrior.


For reference, my gameplan against warriors (and rogues) is to deck them out, and that's generally been working ok, but I need an Ysera answer in the five cards because I probably won't thoughtsteal a deathwing next time I face warrior XD.
Against handlock, Jaraxxus is hard to deck out, so I guess I go for a kill or mostly accept difficulties with winning that matchup. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 11, 2014, 06:26:35 pm
After regularly getting 5-8 arena wins a month ago, I'm 1-3 on my last 3 arenas.

Guess I'm one of those awful arena players pops loves to talk about.

pops is an asshole never listen to that tool
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 06:30:17 pm
Harrison Jones is my first suggestion.  Good against Rogue and Warrior, and every once in a while you'll draw 7 against jaraxxus.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 06:33:10 pm
Against that field, Nat Pagle is probably fine too.  He's not great against warrior I guess, but handlock has trouble dealing with him early apart from soulfire (and if they soulfire him, that's fine, right?), and he's probably okay against rogues.

He's really against decks that can just kill him with minions, but if the meta you're seeing is fairly creatureless, he might be worth a shot.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 11, 2014, 07:03:14 pm
I'm biased towards fun/silly plays, so...

1x Prophet Velen
1x Mind Blast
(for the make-your-own-Pyro)
1x Mind Control
(Idk how else you're dealing with things like Ysera)
2x actually useful cards
(Maybe a Faceless Manipulator? Live the Velen - copy Velen - Mind Blast for 20 dream)

These are all more control oriented cards, might be a bit too slow for what you have in mind. I would normally be all over Pyromancer + Holy Nova but if you aren't seeing aggro decks, those cards aren't that great.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 11, 2014, 07:55:51 pm
I've never actually won after using Harrison on a Jaraxxus.  It seems great but I don't really know how to pull that off short of running Mind blast Mind blast Holy fire, which would ruin other matchups.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 11, 2014, 10:00:03 pm
After regularly getting 5-8 arena wins a month ago, I'm 1-3 on my last 3 arenas.

Guess I'm one of those awful arena players pops loves to talk about.

Nah.  I think it's a log of rng with drafts.

I'm finally having my first good arena run, for example.  Just got win 8 in four turns:

1 - opponent passes
1 - coin out the 2/1 murloc and Leper Gnome
2 - 0/2 totem
2 - knife juggler, kill totem
3 - 1/1 totem
3 - Orc chick with boar, juggler kills totem
4 - demolisher
4 - Swipe demo, all attacks
5 - resign

That isn't the shaman's fault as a player -- clearly dome bad rng draws.

So, this was my best arena run with 9 wins, and I liked the deck a lot.  Here's what I ended up with, and I need to figure out how to make a constructed version with not a lot of awesome cards:

Innervate x3
Naturalize
Abusive Sergeant
Leper Gnome
Murloc Raider
Mark of the Wild x2
Wild Growth
Wrath
Knife Juggler
Loot Hoarder
Earthen Ring Farseer
Flesheating Ghoul
Harvest Golem
Razorfen Hunter
Shattered Sun Cleric
Tinkmaster Overspark
Swipe
Gnomish Inventor
Seníjin Shieldmasta
Abomination
Druid of the Claw
Starfire
Ancient of Lore x2
Ancient of War
Ironbark Protector x2

I only have one AoL, no AoW, no Abom, no Tinkmaster, and no DotC.  The rest are commons, or easily replaced rares (Knife Juggler).

I was super underwhelmed by Tink, but the other two options were the spell damage guy and another one that didn't make much sense for me.  Every time I cast Tink, without fail, gave my opponent the Devilsaur or me the Squirrel.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 11, 2014, 11:13:33 pm
Thalnos is good with Swipe.  You probably should've taken him.

If you want to build a constructed version of that, I'd start building around Violet Teacher/Power of the Wild/Savage Roar... cards like that.  Token druid was a competitive deck at one time, although it's somewhat fallen off recently.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 12, 2014, 12:12:24 am
by the time I'm starting to get good with this priest thing the meta it was created for has changed already.

Maybe I ought to just stick with some particular deck
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 12, 2014, 04:34:13 am
Just lived the dream of playing Shadowform, then playing Prophet Velen and getting a 4 damage nuke for a hero power.

Brb making the best deck ever.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 12, 2014, 05:27:57 am
it's not the dream until your hero power is fireball, man.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 12, 2014, 05:33:04 am
it's not the dream until your hero power is fireball, man.

I don't have 2 Shadowforms :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 12, 2014, 10:21:17 am
http://arenamastery.com/q8Nf

Three Frostbolts and a Blizzard?  OK, fine, I'll take an Ice Lance.  Oh, another two Frostbolts?  Sure.

I actually always loved playing a Frost Mage, even though Fire was technically more damage.  (Arcane?  No one specced Arcane, who does that?)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 12, 2014, 11:22:22 am
[Panda Priest]

Pandas? Priest? What are you, me?

On the topic of the other cards you need, I'm thinking MC should wrap up the control Warrior matchup. Black Knight is obviously good vs taunting giants. There's also Faceless+Death/BGH and Sylvanas+Death Combos. But then you need to start putting in more anti-aggro stuff. If you've put in half a dozen cards to win specific matchups, that's probably enough and you need balance.

On a related note, I never see Murlocs unless I start playing Priest...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 12, 2014, 11:33:44 am
So, this was my best arena run with 9 wins, and I liked the deck a lot.  Here's what I ended up with, and I need to figure out how to make a constructed version with not a lot of awesome cards:
...
Thoughts?

The problem is that good arena decks don't really translate into good constructed decks. The main thing your deck has going for it is 2 of the most powerful cards in the game: Innervate and AoL. Then if you just put generally good cards in there you have a good deck. The collection of minions you had in your arena deck is fine for arena, but for constructed, you probably want actually good constructed deck minions.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 12, 2014, 11:53:01 am
Innervate always seems weak to me in arena. For it to even be passable card-wise, the card you innervate out needs to go 2-for-1. That's pretty likely, but not guaranteed, and how often does it go 3-for-1, which is what you really want? For example, a Yeti still dies to 2 Raptors. Yes you get a tempo advantage, but Druid doesn't seem much good at rushing. Plus, it's the worst late-game top-deck in the game, and Druid arena games tend to go late.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 11:56:38 am
The meta is mostly rogue, warrior, and handlock for me right now, so I've been trying to build an ooze priest that does well against the mean of those three.  I was hoping for some ideas, because i change a lot of cards constantly but feel really good about a lot of the core

[Panda Priest]

No Holy Nova in Priest? That sounds crazy. Even against decks that aren't beatdown/murlock decks it's still a really strong card. (And against Rogue it's still nice when they flood the board with little guys or have a key minion stealthed.)

Aside from that I'd say there's a shortage of creatures with lots of health for a Priest deck and would weigh the remaining cards towards those, so you can get more out of your healing cards (far seers, CoH, Northshire). Having a creature that your opponent is just a few health from finishing off can let you trade really nicely in Priest, especially when you can heal it back up to full. I don't see your Circles of Healing doing a lot of work in this deck except when the Soulpriest or Injured Blademaster is out. (I'd also probably trade the Argent Commanders for Sunwalkers, as I lean towards health and taunters in a Priest deck, but that's just me.)

I think a single Mind Control is also a great idea.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 12, 2014, 01:24:55 pm
SWP and SWD? What about the 4 cost panda? And if you are rocking 2 Northshires, I think some other 2 costs might be good if you want to save the pandas for retrieving.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 01:40:36 pm
SWD is a bit more versatile than Big Game Hunter even though it doesn't leave you with a creature afterwards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 01:43:19 pm
SWD is a bit more versatile than Big Game Hunter even though it doesn't leave you with a creature afterwards.

BGH leaving you a creature afterwards is really strong though when you get to use it. If you're seeing a lot of big creatures I'd leave it in.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 01:47:02 pm
Thalnos is good with Swipe.  You probably should've taken him.

If you want to build a constructed version of that, I'd start building around Violet Teacher/Power of the Wild/Savage Roar... cards like that.  Token druid was a competitive deck at one time, although it's somewhat fallen off recently.

That spell that lets you choose between a 3/2 and +1/+1 to everything is a nice versatile addition to a token deck also. So is Cenarius though you're less likely to have that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 12, 2014, 02:17:05 pm
Innervate always seems weak to me in arena. For it to even be passable card-wise, the card you innervate out needs to go 2-for-1. That's pretty likely, but not guaranteed, and how often does it go 3-for-1, which is what you really want? For example, a Yeti still dies to 2 Raptors. Yes you get a tempo advantage, but Druid doesn't seem much good at rushing. Plus, it's the worst late-game top-deck in the game, and Druid arena games tend to go late.

While the yeti may die to two cards and end up not giving obvious card advantage, there's tremendous value in being the player with board control. If they spend their 2 drops and 3 drops killing yeti, you get to be ahead on the board. Your pump spells are great, their cards like shattered sun cleric are bad.

Even though its hard to quantify, I think you generate something similar to card advantage by maintaining control of the board.  You make your cards better and their cards worse. Innervate is excellent at seizing this.  It's not about killing them quickly (although it sometimes is), it's about limiting their options.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 12, 2014, 05:37:28 pm
That's true in constructed, but I always find myself disappointed by Innervate in arena. It might be a playstyle thing, but I prefer having lots of 2 and 3 drops, while Innervate wants you to have enough high value expensive cards. You can build around this in constructed, but in arena it feels much harder to get a deck where Innervate gets good value without making your early game difficult when you don't draw it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 12, 2014, 06:25:24 pm
I think I just drafted to most ridiculous arena deck ever. Could use a couple better minions, but 2 legendaries and a bunch of epics makes up for that.

Rogue:

-Backstab
-Deadly Poison x2
-Shiv
-Bloodsail Raider
-Bluegill Warrior
-Defias Ringleader
-Knife Juggler x2
-Mana addict
-Sunfury Protector
-Blood Knight
-Ironfur grizzly
-Raging Worgen
-Shattered Sun Cleric x2
-Wolfrider
-Chillwind Yeti
-Cult Master
-Oasis Snapjaw
-Assassinate
-Darkscale healer
-faceless Maniputalor
-Nightblade
-Spiteful Smith
-Hogger!
-Kidnapper
-Sprint
-Ragnaors the Firelord!!
-Sea Giant
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 06:50:09 pm
The only time I ever drafted Hogger I never got to play him. He was always in the bottom of the deck. :(
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 12, 2014, 06:54:32 pm
After regularly getting 5-8 arena wins a month ago, I'm 1-3 on my last 3 arenas.

Guess I'm one of those awful arena players pops loves to talk about.

Nah.  I think it's a log of rng with drafts.

I'm finally having my first good arena run, for example.  Just got win 8 in four turns:

1 - opponent passes
1 - coin out the 2/1 murloc and Leper Gnome
2 - 0/2 totem
2 - knife juggler, kill totem
3 - 1/1 totem
3 - Orc chick with boar, juggler kills totem
4 - demolisher
4 - Swipe demo, all attacks
5 - resign

That isn't the shaman's fault as a player -- clearly dome bad rng draws.

Turn 4 arena wins are the best. I once had the following miracle game:

HimMe
Turn 1 | Coin, Knife Juggler
Turn 2 | Novice EngineerKnife Juggler (Juggler hits Novice Engineer)
Turn 3 | SomethingMurloc Tidehunter (Jugglers kill Something), Repentance
Turn 4 | Mogu'shan Warden 0-1
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 12, 2014, 07:32:15 pm
That's true in constructed, but I always find myself disappointed by Innervate in arena. It might be a playstyle thing, but I prefer having lots of 2 and 3 drops, while Innervate wants you to have enough high value expensive cards. You can build around this in constructed, but in arena it feels much harder to get a deck where Innervate gets good value without making your early game difficult when you don't draw it.

I don't think Innervate really needs expensive cards. It's just 2 free mana of tempo you can spend on whatever. And there's plenty of good common things to use it for. It's not just Yeti or Venture Co or DotC or Ogre. Sen'jin, Scarlett, Harvest Golem, or even double 2-drop work well. If you put 2 Raptors on an empty board turn 1-2, that's a hell of a lot scarier than the Defias gang.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 12, 2014, 07:51:34 pm
That's true in constructed, but I always find myself disappointed by Innervate in arena. It might be a playstyle thing, but I prefer having lots of 2 and 3 drops, while Innervate wants you to have enough high value expensive cards. You can build around this in constructed, but in arena it feels much harder to get a deck where Innervate gets good value without making your early game difficult when you don't draw it.

I don't think Innervate really needs expensive cards. It's just 2 free mana of tempo you can spend on whatever. And there's plenty of good common things to use it for. It's not just Yeti or Venture Co or DotC or Ogre. Sen'jin, Scarlett, Harvest Golem, or even double 2-drop work well. If you put 2 Raptors on an empty board turn 1-2, that's a hell of a lot scarier than the Defias gang.

Yeah, I'll freely admit I don't have much experience with Innervate, it's been a while since I played one in a constructed or arena deck, and I might have just been a worse player.

In other news, I got my Frothing Berzerker up to 14/4 by turn 5 my last game. Pretty silly.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 12, 2014, 08:06:02 pm
I love Frothing Berserker. He's a vastly improved Flesheating Ghoul.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 13, 2014, 01:37:09 am
My attitude towards innervate is similar to my attitude towards novice engineer in arena, it's largely like not picking a card at all.  If you draw innervate with a gnomish inventor, that's a fancy crocolisk.  If you draw innervate with a starfire, it's a fancy Fireball.  Fancy but not actually that much better than whatever you had originally.  Constructed decks are well oiled machines that are willing to spin their wheels to get just a little more oomph out of everything, like hey i want innervate to upgrade my cantrip ogre magis for cantrip yetis because that's ever so slightly better (innervated Ancient Lore is a bit better than Azure Drake, but they are cardcount equivalent).  But in arena mode you tend to want to be spending your picks to actually get good cards into your deck.  So like Novice Engineer, I'll pick innervate to avoid taking something disappointing like Tauren Warrior, but I won't take Innervate over a card that would improve my deck, like SilverHand Knight.


All of that is assuming that when you take Innervate, you properly shift your curve upwards or add draw to try to absorb the extra mana without getting empty hand syndrome.  That has some consistency problems if you only drafted one Innervate, but if you somehow get a quadruple Innervate it's probably much easier and theoretically even more solid than in play mode (though in practice nobody will know wtf they are doing and probably overshoot or undershoot the curve because that doesn't happen often).  With double innervate things generally turn out fine.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 13, 2014, 12:02:30 pm
My attitude towards innervate is similar to my attitude towards novice engineer in arena, it's largely like not picking a card at all.  If you draw innervate with a gnomish inventor, that's a fancy crocolisk.  If you draw innervate with a starfire, it's a fancy Fireball.  Fancy but not actually that much better than whatever you had originally.  Constructed decks are well oiled machines that are willing to spin their wheels to get just a little more oomph out of everything, like hey i want innervate to upgrade my cantrip ogre magis for cantrip yetis because that's ever so slightly better (innervated Ancient Lore is a bit better than Azure Drake, but they are cardcount equivalent). 
I'm confused by what you're saying here. If you're playing cantrips with Innervate, you're nearly canceling out the tempo-boosting effect because Innervate costs a card for 2 mana and cantrips are overcosted for their effect by ~2 mana to make up the card draw. In the words of cupcake boy, "OK, so what?". Is the problem that you feel compelled to draft more cantrips to offset the card loss of playing Innervate? There are other ways to deal with the card loss. If you Innervate out strong cards like Yetis, they're going 2-for-1 anyway, but in a more tempo-proactive way than cantrips.

There are two ways to get card advantage: drawing more cards, and killing more cards off the board. The latter is the more tempo-proactive way to play. If you want to take greater advantage of a tempo card like Innervate, you prefer to do the latter. Of course, if you must do the former, that's okay too. There's no loss compared to just playing without the Innervate. And better yet: you don't have to do it on the same turn! You can push out the big stuff early and then get the card advantage back by playing drawing cards later. In a sense, this is like getting an improved version of Shaman overload on whatever minions you want.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 13, 2014, 02:23:28 pm
Some good arguments for innervate, thanks. I may have underrated its strength in ideal arena situations. I still can't get over how disastrously bad it is as a late-game topdeck, or how uninspiring it is to draw early if you don't have enough mana worth of cards to spend innervate on.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 13, 2014, 02:43:18 pm
Innervate is a terrible top deck, but I don't think there's any situations where it's bad early. Even if you don't have a 4-5 drop in hand, dropping two 2s is a good use of it, and can usually let you take tempo.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 13, 2014, 03:20:43 pm
I finally finished my task of playing all classes to level 10, and beating Expert AI.  So far, I've constructed a shitty Rogue deck, two questionable Mage decks, and the decent Priest deck (this is the one that I beat the AI on).

Current goal is to play ranked games and see how high my Priest deck takes me!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 13, 2014, 04:03:28 pm
If you get to 20 or better (and thats quite easy), you get a special back at the end of the month!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 13, 2014, 04:45:46 pm
I'm at 20 already, it was pretty easy.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 13, 2014, 04:51:31 pm
If you get to 20 or better (and thats quite easy), you get a special back at the end of the month!

So... how do I use the special back?  I think I got it for last month, but I've no idea how to change it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 13, 2014, 05:06:21 pm
in options, i think.  I ran into it accidentally while trying to mute things.  Didn't like the red backs.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 13, 2014, 05:21:15 pm
What really annoys me with the card backs is that they affect your cards. The cards your opponent will be looking at. Not the card backs you'll be looking at the whole game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 13, 2014, 05:41:33 pm
Yetis are better than Gnomishes but it's harder to make parallel comparisons with him to illustrate my point.  4/5's and 3/5's are a special case because of the way they outclass early stuff, but I don't think that happens consistently enough.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 13, 2014, 08:56:00 pm
I too just drafted my best arena deck ever...3-0 so far:

1x Blessing of Might
1x Hand of Protection
1x Noble Sacrifice
1x Argent Protector
1x Knife Juggler
1x Loot Hoarder
1x Novice Engineer
1x River Crocolisk
1x Youthful Brewmaster
2x Aldor Peacekeeper
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Blood Knight
1x Scarlet Crusader
1x Truesilver Champion
1x Blessing of Kings
2x Consecration
1x Hammer of Wrath
2x Ancient Brewmaster
1x Dark Iron Dwarf
1x Booty Bay Bodyguard
1x Fen Creeper
1x Nightblade
1x Stormpike Commander
1x Guardian of Kings
1x Gruul
1x Tirion Fordring
1x Sea Giant

A lot of good 4s and Tirion + Gruul + Peacekeepers will hopefully win me almost every game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 14, 2014, 12:13:41 am
Yetis are better than Gnomishes but it's harder to make parallel comparisons with him to illustrate my point.  4/5's and 3/5's are a special case because of the way they outclass early stuff, but I don't think that happens consistently enough.

I guess I'm not sure what your point is then... I thought it related directly to cantrips and trying to get back the card advantage.
Instead of giving an example, can you explain your point?

Innervate trades cards for tempo. It's like Soulfire. Soulfire is a little better because Warlock has a built-in way to get the card advantage back via the hero power. With Druid, you actually have to draft a way of getting the card advantage. Fortunately, that's not very hard.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 14, 2014, 12:17:11 am
While we're on this tempo vs card advantage thread, what do you guys think of dancing swords?

3 mana 4/4.  Deathrattle: Your opponent draws a card.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2014, 12:21:53 am
While we're on this tempo vs card advantage thread, what do you guys think of dancing swords?

3 mana 4/4.  Deathrattle: Your opponent draws a card.

I fear the cards that help my opponent much more in Hearthstone than, say in Dominion.  Like, that sounds worse to me than Council Room.

I can't tell if Naturalize is a good card or not.  It's single minion removal for 1 mana, which is great, but your opponent draws TWO cards.  Two is a lot.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 14, 2014, 12:53:42 am
While we're on this tempo vs card advantage thread, what do you guys think of dancing swords?

3 mana 4/4.  Deathrattle: Your opponent draws a card.

Looks bad to me. 4/4 seems kind of weak for that effect. In most other examples, a card trades for around 2 mana of tempo, here it's less than 1. This card is similar to Mukla except it gives a card from their deck (with a delay) rather than 2 Bananas. A card is probably better than 2 Bananas, yet this card has 1/1 stats *less* than Mukla. It also looks a bit like Succubus, which no one plays, with +1 health, but a worse penalty (giving them a card is better than discarding one for Warlock) and 1 more mana cost.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 14, 2014, 01:00:45 am
I can't tell if Naturalize is a good card or not.  It's single minion removal for 1 mana, which is great, but your opponent draws TWO cards.  Two is a lot.

The problem with Naturalize is that there's usually not a good target for it at the point in time where that tempo matters a lot. If you're naturalizing a 4-drop, you're giving up a lot of cards for not a big enough effect. If you naturalize some huge late game minion, the mana savings aren't that important anymore a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 07:29:48 am
Why is this in boardgames?  :o

Anyhow, got my first 11-X today (got a booster and 440g).

Here is the deck:
http://oi62.tinypic.com/2955yep.jpg
Edit: Note that curve isn't really that good and the huge lack of 6 drops. Other than Onyxia, I had big lategame threats.


Notable cards:

I won ~4 games on the back of Questing Adventurer alone.

I had to pick Blade Furry quite early, with no Poisons or Weapons. Made me value already awesome Poison even more (It's basically a Fiery War Axe). Furry did good job maybe twice alltogether, Poison won games easily.

Wild Pyro was horrible. Onyxia is my fav legendary :)

Notable games:

11-2, I played horribly and deserved to lose.

10-2 was a very close game, a true test of skill. Until I got as lucky as one gets. I got a 3/3 Vanilla and a Mogushan Warden and am at about ~7. He gets 4/5 Drake and 4/6 Druid in play. I Assassinate the Taunter and play Cold Blood on Mogushan (7/3 can be killed with 3 damage spell, Mogushan cant) and get him to 8. He doesn't attack with Drake but puts an Ironbark Protector and a 2 drop, I think. I don't have anything in hand, and what looked like a new turn win turn into a next turn lose. I recon that only card that actually saves me is Black Knight. And oh, of course I topdeck it :)
(or something like that, but you get the jest of it)

4-1, I got first. Rexxar does some really strange moves:
T1 he puts 2/1 guy that gives +2/+0 when he enters. A horrible play, esp against a Rogue. I kill it.
T2 he plays Tracking and Arcane shot.. at me.
T3 a 2 drop and coin for hero power.
Needless to say, few turns later I am beating him up with a 7/1 Divine Shielder, 3/3 bear and poison daggers. Sigh. How do these people get to 4 wins?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 11:28:23 am
What really annoys me with the card backs is that they affect your cards. The cards your opponent will be looking at. Not the card backs you'll be looking at the whole game.

Well, the idea is that they are a bragging, prestige thing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 14, 2014, 11:29:56 am
What really annoys me with the card backs is that they affect your cards. The cards your opponent will be looking at. Not the card backs you'll be looking at the whole game.

Well, the idea is that they are a bragging, prestige thing.

You can also look at your own deck on the side, and when you open packs the back you chose is there.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 14, 2014, 11:33:46 am
Yetis are better than Gnomishes but it's harder to make parallel comparisons with him to illustrate my point.  4/5's and 3/5's are a special case because of the way they outclass early stuff, but I don't think that happens consistently enough.

I guess I'm not sure what your point is then... I thought it related directly to cantrips and trying to get back the card advantage.
Instead of giving an example, can you explain your point?

Innervate trades cards for tempo. It's like Soulfire. Soulfire is a little better because Warlock has a built-in way to get the card advantage back via the hero power. With Druid, you actually have to draft a way of getting the card advantage. Fortunately, that's not very hard.

It is harder to get a curve that consistently balances between empty hand syndrome and full utilization of innervate than it is to get a consistent curve that doesn't use innervate.  If you don't run cantrips, it becomes even harder.  You can't just run six yetis and expect that to work out ok, because then if you don't draw the innervate, you've got a game loss after 3 dead turns and nothing but yetis in your hand.  Consistency is way more important than trying to build a deck that can do Play mode power level openings because you need to wipe through a lot of inferior players to get your 7+ wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 11:38:36 am
I'd run 6 Yetis. Inneverates or not. Awesome 4 drops, and you need 4drops :P Its freaking impossible to race 4 Yetis :D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 14, 2014, 12:29:30 pm
I'm not sure where your notion that you have to massively warp your curve to run innervate is coming from.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 14, 2014, 01:08:32 pm
Your deck is an unordered set of values, mostly ranging between two and six. 

If you toss a single -2 in there, the standard deviation of your multi-card samples increases no matter how you compensate for the -2 to pull your mean up.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 14, 2014, 02:08:08 pm
I'm not sure where your notion that you have to massively warp your curve to run innervate is coming from.

This. With a "normal" curve, your deck just turns into an aggressive deck. With a heavier deck (which you may get just picking some of the good Druid commons: DotC, Starfire, Ironbark), you get a "normal" deck.

Your deck is an unordered set of values, mostly ranging between two and six. 

If you toss a single -2 in there, the standard deviation of your multi-card samples increases no matter how you compensate for the -2 to pull your mean up.

Why is standard deviation bad?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 03:20:05 pm
While we're on this tempo vs card advantage thread, what do you guys think of dancing swords?

3 mana 4/4.  Deathrattle: Your opponent draws a card.

It's utterly bad.
It's not even that much above the curve. for 3 mana you have 4/3s with upsides (Injured Blademaster, guy that lets you play secrets for 0, and they aren't really top tier cards), 3/3s with upside (restore 3 hp) two 2/3s with downside, and so on. Yes, 4/3 doesn't trade with a Raptor, but that alone doesn't make up for a card loss. And if you are going to silence it you go with Ancient Watcher anyway.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 14, 2014, 03:30:33 pm
All those cards you listed are rates, though. This is a common.  I'm talking mainly about arena here

I actually think its okay. Not great, but you can do way worse
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 03:44:41 pm
Far seer is a common, and I'd pick it rather than this, but beside the point..
If you cast it at turn 3 it is probably decent as he most likely has to give two creatures for it, or take some damage and give a big guy. Draw it later and he'll gladly 2 for 1 you.

Edit: actually the main thing is that aside from Eviscerate and Deadly Shot, I do not thing any early removal destroy it.


What about the other cards? Nerrubian Egg (2 mana 0/2, deathrattle: summon 4/4) could be good if we get a sacrifice outlet of sorts (something that kills your own things for benefit, Warlock has a few), Undertaker is a Johnny card that just seems fun, though not nowhere near comparable with Mana Wurm, at least not now.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 14, 2014, 05:38:55 pm
http://imgur.com/a/GZYp6

Crossposted to the GoT thread...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 14, 2014, 07:50:21 pm
New card:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnnIFHRCEAAnddE.jpg)
Well, It eats the Yeti, but Deathrattle isn't as good as Brew battlecries since you cannot always predict when it will fire, but still is controllable and overall card is strong.

Today I got like 11, 8, 10 and a 1 win run. Why that 1 win, no idea. (except that I drafted superfast and deck was horrible. Even that one win was a disconected player  :P).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 14, 2014, 07:53:39 pm
New card:
[img ]http://Anub'ar Ambusher[/img]
Well, It eats the Yeti, but Deathrattle isn't as good as Brew battlecries since you cannot always predict when it will fire, but still is controllable and overall card is strong.

That's a Rogue only card, right?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 14, 2014, 08:26:22 pm
New card:
[img ]http://Anub'ar Ambusher[/img]
Well, It eats the Yeti, but Deathrattle isn't as good as Brew battlecries since you cannot always predict when it will fire, but still is controllable and overall card is strong.

That's a Rogue only card, right?

Yeah I think it is. Works well with all the combo stuff as usual with Rogue cards. Like gurjah said, the battlecry ones are easier to control though. Those stats are nice, which makes me think this will be used a lot just for that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 14, 2014, 09:53:09 pm
It looks like that Deathrattle is meant to be a drawback, no?  I mean, that's compared to a 4/5 with nothing special.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 14, 2014, 11:07:43 pm
It looks like that Deathrattle is meant to be a drawback, no?  I mean, that's compared to a 4/5 with nothing special.

But it can also be a benefit in the right situation like the Brewmasters, which is why I think it's only a 5/5 and not higher stats.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 14, 2014, 11:37:25 pm
All those cards you listed are rates, though. This is a common.  I'm talking mainly about arena here

I actually think its okay. Not great, but you can do way worse
You could do worse, but most likely don't have to. There's at least 10 common 3-drops I'd rather have (see my list about a page ago).
This card is not bad on turn 3 on an empty board if your opponent doesn't have a 4/3, Soulfire, Shadow bolt, Eviscerate, or coin+Truesilver. You'll probably get at least 4 face damage, and force him to not play a big 4-drop. But the problem is that there are too many ways for it to just get blown out, especially later than turn 3.

What about the other cards? Nerrubian Egg (2 mana 0/2, deathrattle: summon 4/4) could be good if we get a sacrifice outlet of sorts (something that kills your own things for benefit, Warlock has a few), Undertaker is a Johnny card that just seems fun, though not nowhere near comparable with Mana Wurm, at least not now.
Egg and Undertaker seem like they'd be good in the right constructed decks but might have a hard time cutting it in arena. Shade is the best of the neutrals revealed thus far, and it's basically like Panther.

The class cards, however, all look pretty good. The Druid one gives actual hard removal with a smaller drawback than Naturalize. The Warrior one is yet another weapon, which is always good. The Paladin one seems like good stats -- at worst it turns a token into a 4/3 which is worth the 3 mana spent on token + secret. And the Rogue one is a big 4-drop.

It looks like that Deathrattle is meant to be a drawback, no?  I mean, that's compared to a 4/5 with nothing special.
It is a drawback because usually your opponent will kill the minion, which gives them better control of what bounces, unlike with pandas. You can't follow this up with a big 5-drop, because it's likely to bounce back. But if you follow up with like 2-drop + 3-drop (preferably with battlecries) or a weapon or something, there's not that much of a drawback.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 15, 2014, 05:30:25 am
Link to other new cards?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 15, 2014, 07:46:44 am
Please note that the death rattle bounce will almost certainly be random. There's currently no death rattles or triggered abilities of any kind, other than battlecries, that have a player make a choice. One of their design philosophies is completely asynchronous turns.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 15, 2014, 10:36:11 am
Link to other new cards?
http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Curse_of_Naxxramas
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 15, 2014, 10:40:34 am
Warrior one is great. You get a built in Whirlwind - that's quite strong.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 15, 2014, 10:57:20 pm
Anyone close to a golden hero yet?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 15, 2014, 11:10:35 pm
What are people's luck/RNG experiences with opening packs?  I'm generally hovering at one Rare or Epic and a bunch of Commons each pack, but then two packs ago:

Rare
Golden Rare
Golden Common
Rare
Epic
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 15, 2014, 11:13:24 pm
Please note that the death rattle bounce will almost certainly be random. There's currently no death rattles or triggered abilities of any kind, other than battlecries, that have a player make a choice. One of their design philosophies is completely asynchronous turns.
Most of the time effects like this would use the word "random" if it was random, though.  See Master Swordsmith and Young Priestess.

I'm thinking it's possible you pick which minion to return at the start of your next turn, provided one still lives, or that the minion returned is based on adjacency.  I'd put money on it being random, but I'm hoping for a nonrandom method
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 16, 2014, 12:06:55 am
So just drafted my first Paladin deck in arena.  I've never actually played Paladin before, but I know they like to have a bunch of minions in play.  I think the draft went pretty well:

http://www.arenamastery.com/arena.php?shared=hs5363ef173f8f1&arena=240923

How did I do?

I'll update with results
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 16, 2014, 12:16:23 am
So just drafted my first Paladin deck in arena.  I've never actually played Paladin before, but I know they like to have a bunch of minions in play.  I think the draft went pretty well:

http://www.arenamastery.com/arena.php?shared=hs5363ef173f8f1&arena=240923

How did I do?

I'll update with results

Am I supposed to see the cards you chose each pick?  I normally am able to when I look at these things, but can't here.

The deck looks pretty solid.  Apart from the mini-murloc theme, which I don't like (1 toughness creatures just don't cut it), most of the cards are fine to good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 16, 2014, 12:20:35 am
Warrior one is great. You get a built in Whirlwind - that's quite strong.

Most importantly, it's a truesilver champion!  Man, warrior is looking good with both this and fiery war axe.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 16, 2014, 12:29:14 am
I didn't enter the picks...

But my first pick was a murloc, because it was the only one that would work well for me, so I figured make the most of it
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 16, 2014, 01:13:44 am
Grimscale Oracle is the unanimous worst arena card, and you should correct that in the future.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 16, 2014, 05:47:44 am
Murlocks are all horrible and only two creatures on 4-5 mana is worrysome other than that its fine. 4 Consecrates win games.

I didn't enter the picks...

But my first pick was a murloc, because it was the only one that would work well for me, so I figured make the most of it

Pretty much impossible. :D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: AHoppy on May 16, 2014, 10:55:58 am
Alright, next time I'll pick something else :P   I didn't win any games.  I lost the first two (they were close) and the third my internet decided to disconnect me... and it was looking good.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 16, 2014, 11:23:27 am
Aaarrrrrrrgh.  Build aggro deck.  Fail to draw any 2s or 3s in opening hand.  Grrr

Edit: ... or maybe aggro decks just suck ass?  Or maybe they just suck ass against Priests and all I'm getting matched with is Priests?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 16, 2014, 11:51:37 am
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 16, 2014, 11:56:46 am
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.

Really? I find games last long enough that you can play lots of large minions. I usually aim for lots of 2's, down until around 6 mana where I spike up again.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 16, 2014, 12:46:02 pm
Aaarrrrrrrgh.  Build aggro deck.  Fail to draw any 2s or 3s in opening hand.  Grrr

Edit: ... or maybe aggro decks just suck ass?  Or maybe they just suck ass against Priests and all I'm getting matched with is Priests?

Do you have any 1s? I find they're essential in aggro/beatdown decks. You really don't want to miss the opportunity to take tempo off that first turn in a way that slower decks can afford to.  Additionally you want to be really efficient with your mana and having a spare Leper Gnome/Worgen Infiltrator/Abusive Sarge to play when you've got 1 mana to spare helps keep the pressure on.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: heron on May 16, 2014, 01:05:30 pm
2x Frostbolt, 4x Fireball, 1x Polymorph, 1x Flamestrike.

I think I will do well this run.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 16, 2014, 01:10:48 pm
Aaarrrrrrrgh.  Build aggro deck.  Fail to draw any 2s or 3s in opening hand.  Grrr

Edit: ... or maybe aggro decks just suck ass?  Or maybe they just suck ass against Priests and all I'm getting matched with is Priests?

Do you have any 1s? I find they're essential in aggro/beatdown decks. You really don't want to miss the opportunity to take tempo off that first turn in a way that slower decks can afford to.  Additionally you want to be really efficient with your mana and having a spare Leper Gnome/Worgen Infiltrator/Abusive Sarge to play when you've got 1 mana to spare helps keep the pressure on.

Yeah, I think I have 4-6 minions and a few spells at 1.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 16, 2014, 01:23:07 pm
Yknow what?  I think it's priests.  MFers can heal enough to get you into a long game, at which point you're fucked.  This deck is 0-5 against priests and like 3-3 against others.

Also not so great to play an aggro deck against:  A lock holding Jaraxxus.  "27 damage?  I laugh at your 27 damage!  Do 15 more!"  But that one wasn't a bad game at all.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 16, 2014, 05:12:52 pm
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.

Really? I find games last long enough that you can play lots of large minions. I usually aim for lots of 2's, down until around 6 mana where I spike up again.

For me a typical curve has half the cards under 4, 1/4 at 4, and 1/4 above. 2 and 4 are the most important price points because those are the key points where the cards are significantly better than 1 mana less. I definitely don't see a reason for a spike at 6. There are very few good common cards at 6+ mana. For a good control deck you need like 4 "big" guys with 5-6+ attack, but really not more than that, and those can come from 5-drops like Mercenary, Warlord, or Tiger.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 16, 2014, 05:16:24 pm
Yknow what?  I think it's priests.  MFers can heal enough to get you into a long game, at which point you're fucked.  This deck is 0-5 against priests and like 3-3 against others.

Also not so great to play an aggro deck against:  A lock holding Jaraxxus.  "27 damage?  I laugh at your 27 damage!  Do 15 more!"  But that one wasn't a bad game at all.

Priests can build very strong anti-aggro decks or very strong anti-control decks, but not both, and typically not very stong anti-midrange decks. Yetis and Dwarves give Priests nightmares. Giants Warlock is the biggest problem deck atm, imo. If you can't burst them down from over 15 health, you're not in good shape. If you leave them at 15 and then they go Life Tap, Molten, Molten, Sunfury, you can kiss the game goodbye.

Maybe post your deck and we can help you out?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 16, 2014, 07:14:05 pm
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.

Really? I find games last long enough that you can play lots of large minions. I usually aim for lots of 2's, down until around 6 mana where I spike up again.

For me a typical curve has half the cards under 4, 1/4 at 4, and 1/4 above. 2 and 4 are the most important price points because those are the key points where the cards are significantly better than 1 mana less. I definitely don't see a reason for a spike at 6. There are very few good common cards at 6+ mana. For a good control deck you need like 4 "big" guys with 5-6+ attack, but really not more than that, and those can come from 5-drops like Mercenary, Warlord, or Tiger.

I'd agree with 2 and 4 as the most valuable price points -- my best constructed deck has 8 cards at 2 cost, 10 cards at 4 cost (which is probably too many..), and no more than 4 at any other cost.

Having a spike at 4 is definitely more important than having a spike at 6. A lot of games are decided by that point.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 16, 2014, 08:52:48 pm
Come watch me fail in tournament at twitch.tv/popsofctown!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 16, 2014, 10:14:54 pm
Come watch me fail in tournament at twitch.tv/popsofctown!

I checked it out, but you're offline now!  What tournament was it?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 16, 2014, 11:50:50 pm
It lagged so much I turned it offline in between games.  You might have missed some of it by poor luck.

It was the eggys weekly tournament
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 17, 2014, 12:08:10 am
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.

Really? I find games last long enough that you can play lots of large minions. I usually aim for lots of 2's, down until around 6 mana where I spike up again.

For me a typical curve has half the cards under 4, 1/4 at 4, and 1/4 above. 2 and 4 are the most important price points because those are the key points where the cards are significantly better than 1 mana less. I definitely don't see a reason for a spike at 6. There are very few good common cards at 6+ mana. For a good control deck you need like 4 "big" guys with 5-6+ attack, but really not more than that, and those can come from 5-drops like Mercenary, Warlord, or Tiger.

Yeah, sorry I meant 4 downward, not 6mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 17, 2014, 12:34:16 am
I love my Arena aggro decks.  I find I tend to do better when more than half of my cards are less than 4 mana.

Really? I find games last long enough that you can play lots of large minions. I usually aim for lots of 2's, down until around 6 mana where I spike up again.

For me a typical curve has half the cards under 4, 1/4 at 4, and 1/4 above. 2 and 4 are the most important price points because those are the key points where the cards are significantly better than 1 mana less. I definitely don't see a reason for a spike at 6. There are very few good common cards at 6+ mana. For a good control deck you need like 4 "big" guys with 5-6+ attack, but really not more than that, and those can come from 5-drops like Mercenary, Warlord, or Tiger.

I'd agree with 2 and 4 as the most valuable price points -- my best constructed deck has 8 cards at 2 cost, 10 cards at 4 cost (which is probably too many..), and no more than 4 at any other cost.

Having a spike at 4 is definitely more important than having a spike at 6. A lot of games are decided by that point.

I don't know if its possible to spike at 6 without taking bad cards.  Ogre is the only all around good neutral common 6er.  There's at most one quality 6 drop common per class. 

HME has pointed out before that the thing about six drops is that a large number of the neutral ones offered, (Priestess of Elune, Lord of the Arena, Windfury Harpy, Reckless Rocketeer) are actually outclassed simple by 4 drop + hero power.  Armor up Yeti>elune, Steady Shot Senjin=Lord, Steady Shot Stormwind Knight >>>> Rocketeer.  Since 4 drops have the versatility to be played turn 6-10 or turn 4, this quality imbalance erodes the concept of a "curve" when it comes to sixes.  You can only design a deck that plans to spend all of its mana on one card turn 2-6 if you get offered multiple Ogres.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 17, 2014, 02:13:20 am
Fan cards for great funzies!

Spry Barmaster
3 Mana Neutral Minion

Battlecry: Return a friendly minion to its owner's hand.
____________
Pandas can't lose Brawls except to other pandas.
3/3 Species type: Panda (errata the other pandas too).


Dragonmaster
4 Mana Neutral Minion
Battlecry: A friendly Dragon just to the right attacks target character.
4/4 No species type

Ice Totem
1 Mana Shaman Minion
Deathrattle: Freeze the last character to damage Ice Totem.
0/2 Species type: Totem

Reinforce!
1 Mana Paladin Secret
Secret: Choose a minion costing three or less mana in your hand and bind it.  When a friendly minion dies, play it for free. (unwritten mechanics a la wild growth: battle cries target the thing that made the friendly minion die if they can, and if they can't they just fizzle)

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 17, 2014, 10:34:19 am
Fan cards for great funzies!

Mine
3 Mana Neutral Spell

Reveal a card from your hand.  Gain a copy of that card and shuffle it into your deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 17, 2014, 03:24:06 pm
New arena:

http://arenamastery.com/EeN5
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 17, 2014, 08:10:44 pm
New arena:

http://arenamastery.com/EeN5

Draft looks reasonable to me, I think the only different picks I'd do would be

16: Mana Wyrm > Cone of Cold. I might be undervaluing Cone of Cold, ever since it got nerfed from 3 mana to 4 I can't play it without remembering how it used to be.
17: Mad Bomber > Worgen Infiltrator. You can make an argument for either, but I like how T2 Mad Bomber, kill their 3/2 or 2/1 can swing the board in your way. If that doesn't happen, well it's turn 2, they'll trade it anyways and you don't lose much. You'd also have the 2 Mana Wyrms if you did the pick on 16, so you'd probably be okay for 1 drops.
22: Raptor > Cult Master just for the 2 drop, and because you already have a Cult Master. Cult Master is very nice when you drop it and immediately trade, so you want those 2 drops and 3 drops all the more.
29: River Croc > Worgen just for the 2 drop, but this can be argued either way.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 17, 2014, 10:40:26 pm
I am on the craziest win streak ever.  I went from rank 9 to rank 5 without losing, lost once, and then streaked from there to rank 3.  Still going.

Anyone know the star counts so i can reverse engineer the win tally on this?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 18, 2014, 12:43:17 am
I believe it's 4 stars per rank from 9-5, then 5 per from 5 up.  You can't get a win streak at 5 or higher, so be sure to count that in.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 18, 2014, 03:56:53 am
I am on the craziest win streak ever.  I went from rank 9 to rank 5 without losing, lost once, and then streaked from there to rank 3.  Still going.

Anyone know the star counts so i can reverse engineer the win tally on this?

That's pretty cool -- what deck are you playing?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 18, 2014, 04:03:26 am
I believe it's 4 stars per rank from 9-5, then 5 per from 5 up.  You can't get a win streak at 5 or higher, so be sure to count that in.

10-6 is 5 stars, not sure about 5 up.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 18, 2014, 05:24:25 pm
Just got my second Legendary, Archmage Antonidas! I think he's one of the more interesting class specific ones. I've had fun with him, holding onto him as long as I can so I can spam a couple cheap spells immediately after dropping him. I've used him to make a let's-cast-lots-of-spells deck. Sorceror's Apprentices, Mana Wyrms, Gadgetzan Auctioneer and lots of spells (including a few secrets to combo with Kirin Tor Mages and Arcane Archivists). I don't think I have quite the cards I need to really make it work (it could use a 2nd Auctioneer and a 2nd Azure Drake), but I'm having fun with it. Any thoughts on how to make a nice deck around Antonidas?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 18, 2014, 06:48:58 pm
I am on the craziest win streak ever.  I went from rank 9 to rank 5 without losing, lost once, and then streaked from there to rank 3.  Still going.

Anyone know the star counts so i can reverse engineer the win tally on this?

That's pretty cool -- what deck are you playing?
It was divine zoo.  The magic stopped at last.  I think maybe it has to do with daily fluctuations in meta.  College students playing a little different from high school students and stuff.

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2014, 06:59:24 pm
Just got my second Legendary, Archmage Antonidas! I think he's one of the more interesting class specific ones. I've had fun with him, holding onto him as long as I can so I can spam a couple cheap spells immediately after dropping him. I've used him to make a let's-cast-lots-of-spells deck. Sorceror's Apprentices, Mana Wyrms, Gadgetzan Auctioneer and lots of spells (including a few secrets to combo with Kirin Tor Mages and Arcane Archivists). I don't think I have quite the cards I need to really make it work (it could use a 2nd Auctioneer and a 2nd Azure Drake), but I'm having fun with it. Any thoughts on how to make a nice deck around Antonidas?

How are you getting the Legendaries?

My games in Ranked always seem to go:

1.  I get out to an early lead.  (I'm fairly aggressive early on.)
2.  I get board control mid-game.  (At this point, I'm probably at least double his health.)
3.  Opponent drops a Legendary.
4.  I lose.

In games where #3 doesn't happen, I usually win.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 18, 2014, 07:09:15 pm
Just got my second Legendary, Archmage Antonidas! I think he's one of the more interesting class specific ones. I've had fun with him, holding onto him as long as I can so I can spam a couple cheap spells immediately after dropping him. I've used him to make a let's-cast-lots-of-spells deck. Sorceror's Apprentices, Mana Wyrms, Gadgetzan Auctioneer and lots of spells (including a few secrets to combo with Kirin Tor Mages and Arcane Archivists). I don't think I have quite the cards I need to really make it work (it could use a 2nd Auctioneer and a 2nd Azure Drake), but I'm having fun with it. Any thoughts on how to make a nice deck around Antonidas?

He's really fun! My deck runs Antonidas -- he was the first legendary I had. Early on, I ran mirror image / arcane missiles to get his bonus, but I found I was just losing games too frequently to get any use out of him. I'm now running control Mage, with ancient watchers/protectors, and its done fairly well. I play pretty slowly and don't usually have a problem getting at least one fireball from Antonidas, but I don't plan my deck around it. The spells I run are 2x frostbolt/fireball/polymorph/arcane intellect, and 1x mirror image/flame strike. So my deck definitely isn't based around Antonidas, although he's won me several games. If you'd like I can post my deck list (its gotten me up to rank 10, Antonidas and rag are the only legendaries although I'd like to add black knight).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 18, 2014, 07:10:21 pm
Just got my second Legendary, Archmage Antonidas! I think he's one of the more interesting class specific ones. I've had fun with him, holding onto him as long as I can so I can spam a couple cheap spells immediately after dropping him. I've used him to make a let's-cast-lots-of-spells deck. Sorceror's Apprentices, Mana Wyrms, Gadgetzan Auctioneer and lots of spells (including a few secrets to combo with Kirin Tor Mages and Arcane Archivists). I don't think I have quite the cards I need to really make it work (it could use a 2nd Auctioneer and a 2nd Azure Drake), but I'm having fun with it. Any thoughts on how to make a nice deck around Antonidas?

How are you getting the Legendaries?

My games in Ranked always seem to go:

1.  I get out to an early lead.  (I'm fairly aggressive early on.)
2.  I get board control mid-game.  (At this point, I'm probably at least double his health.)
3.  Opponent drops a Legendary.
4.  I lose.

In games where #3 doesn't happen, I usually win.

What legendaries are you losing to, and what class are you playing?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2014, 07:15:43 pm
What legendaries are you losing to, and what class are you playing?

My main is a druid.

I most often lose to Free Fireballs Forever guy.  Gruul has destroyed me.  I've seen the Hero Replacement guy, but I beat him.  Cho Spell Copy guy has destroyed me, too.  And the 8 damage a turn but can't attack dude.

So Fireballs, 8 Damage no attack, and Gruul are the most common.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 18, 2014, 07:18:06 pm
Forsen had a neat freeze mage list with antonidas, but it requires Alexstraza




Ashersky needs a Big Game Hunter (+mark of the wild, for Archmage). 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 18, 2014, 07:22:12 pm
I haven't seen Gruul once outside the Arena, and he's just a always-under-the-curve vanilla.

Rag on other hand does take away games here, too.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2014, 07:26:11 pm
Ashersky needs a Big Game Hunter (+mark of the wild, for Archmage).

Good call.  With Priest, Shadow Word: Pain/Death handles any single minion (unless they have exactly 4 attack) for 2/3 mana.

I guess I could run with Naturalize, and just not play it unless I need it, but then it's a dead card a lot of the time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 18, 2014, 07:41:30 pm
Generally an aggro deck should have already won by the time gruul or rag gets played -- if rag is going to beat you, you were probably losing to nonlegendaries as well. Druid doesn't have great removal -- it can't really take out an 8/8. Maybe implementing savage roar as a finisher could help you get in the damage you need.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2014, 08:04:37 pm
Generally an aggro deck should have already won by the time gruul or rag gets played -- if rag is going to beat you, you were probably losing to nonlegendaries as well. Druid doesn't have great removal -- it can't really take out an 8/8. Maybe implementing savage roar as a finisher could help you get in the damage you need.

That's fair.  I'm generally winning on turns 6~8, depending on draw.  Double swipe can take out an 8/8, or other two spell combos, but otherwise not much hope.  I also run low taunt numbers, which maybe I should adjust back upward to take some of the damage away.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 18, 2014, 09:12:38 pm
Ashersky needs a Big Game Hunter (+mark of the wild, for Archmage).

Good call.  With Priest, Shadow Word: Pain/Death handles any single minion (unless they have exactly 4 attack) for 2/3 mana.

I guess I could run with Naturalize, and just not play it unless I need it, but then it's a dead card a lot of the time.
Yeah, I'm playing a Priest mainly.  I love it when there's a close match going on, and my opponent plays their legendary.  It mostly happens like
1.  Opponent drops a Legendary.
2. I play Mind Control
3.  I win (or they rage-quit).

It's the decks that get a good drop on me too quickly and have me beaten before their expensive legendary falls that I have the most trouble with.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 18, 2014, 09:36:04 pm
So I'm now 5-0 with this arena:  http://arenamastery.com/jJN7

Anyone want to tell me what I'm doing right this time?  Besides Shadowform being awesome.

(Most amusing moment so far:  T1: Northshire Cleric, Coin, PW Shield.  T2: Inner Fire, hit for 5.  She never got to draw a card, but it forced the warrior to use Whirlwind/Execute much earlier than he was hoping to.)

Edit.... and 5-3 after facing three hunters in a row.  Least amusing moment:  Enemy has two minions, I have none, Mad Bomber does 3 damage to me.

Edit 2:  No, actually, least favorite moment was T4 Yeti, T5 2x Shield, Inner Fire... and the hunter has Explosive Trap.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 18, 2014, 09:38:37 pm
Just got my second Legendary, Archmage Antonidas! I think he's one of the more interesting class specific ones. I've had fun with him, holding onto him as long as I can so I can spam a couple cheap spells immediately after dropping him. I've used him to make a let's-cast-lots-of-spells deck. Sorceror's Apprentices, Mana Wyrms, Gadgetzan Auctioneer and lots of spells (including a few secrets to combo with Kirin Tor Mages and Arcane Archivists). I don't think I have quite the cards I need to really make it work (it could use a 2nd Auctioneer and a 2nd Azure Drake), but I'm having fun with it. Any thoughts on how to make a nice deck around Antonidas?

How are you getting the Legendaries?

My games in Ranked always seem to go:

1.  I get out to an early lead.  (I'm fairly aggressive early on.)
2.  I get board control mid-game.  (At this point, I'm probably at least double his health.)
3.  Opponent drops a Legendary.
4.  I lose.

In games where #3 doesn't happen, I usually win.

I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 18, 2014, 09:40:51 pm
I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.

Cool.  I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I'm supposed to drop 10-50 bucks on packs to try and compete.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 18, 2014, 10:00:14 pm
I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.

Cool.  I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I'm supposed to drop 10-50 bucks on packs to try and compete.

Honestly, depends on what kind of deck you like to play. If you don't care and just want to win on a budget, aggro Warlock is always pretty consistent and pretty cheap. You won't have Leeroy, but at lower ranks that doesn't matter too much.

What rank are you? If around 15-20, I think tighter play is much more important than anything else. I haven't gone past rank 15 in a while since I'm focusing on arena, so I don't know what it's like past that.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 18, 2014, 10:13:05 pm
I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.

Cool.  I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I'm supposed to drop 10-50 bucks on packs to try and compete.

I wouldn't spend money on packs to try to compete. Spend the money if you want to support the game, sure, but buying 40 packs isn't going to make nearly as much of a difference in your game as just playing the game and getting better at it will, and doing that will get you packs regardless.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 19, 2014, 03:59:18 am
Edit 2:  No, actually, least favorite moment was T4 Yeti, T5 2x Shield, Inner Fire... and the hunter has Explosive Trap.

You mean Freezing Trap, right?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 19, 2014, 04:05:21 am
I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.

Cool.  I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I'm supposed to drop 10-50 bucks on packs to try and compete.

Honestly, depends on what kind of deck you like to play. If you don't care and just want to win on a budget, aggro Warlock is always pretty consistent and pretty cheap. You won't have Leeroy, but at lower ranks that doesn't matter too much.

What rank are you? If around 15-20, I think tighter play is much more important than anything else. I haven't gone past rank 15 in a while since I'm focusing on arena, so I don't know what it's like past that.
Zoo warlock is cheaper than aggro warlock because it doesn't have any legendaries.  It's also stronger..
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 19, 2014, 04:58:01 am
I just got it from a pack. I get my packs through Arena mostly. I've had two so far, but that's in many more packs. Probably about 40-50 packs altogether.

Cool.  I'm at the point where I'm wondering if I'm supposed to drop 10-50 bucks on packs to try and compete.

Honestly, depends on what kind of deck you like to play. If you don't care and just want to win on a budget, aggro Warlock is always pretty consistent and pretty cheap. You won't have Leeroy, but at lower ranks that doesn't matter too much.

What rank are you? If around 15-20, I think tighter play is much more important than anything else. I haven't gone past rank 15 in a while since I'm focusing on arena, so I don't know what it's like past that.
Zoo warlock is cheaper than aggro warlock because it doesn't have any legendaries.  It's also stronger..

I didn't know there was a difference between the two.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 19, 2014, 05:20:56 am
Nomenclature varies.  Hearthstone is new so things don't have the most standard of names yet.

There's two families of decks that use Flame Imp, the "aggro" "face warlock" variants are characterized by Leper Gnome, Arcane Golem, Elvish Archers, Wolf Riders, Abusive Sarges, Hellfires, Argent Commanders, Power Overwhelmings, owls, and of course, Leeroy Jenkins.  Although Doomguard has charge, I believe these lists will actually exclude Doomguard because discarding direct damage cards like Sarge is too costly.  In fact, they'll occasionally throw a loot hoarder in.

Standard zoo lists will have less of those cards I mentioned, and they'll also have Shieldbearers, Doomguards, Blood Knights and Shattered Sun Clerics that the face warlocks are less likely to run.  These decks intend to gain control of the board turn one and keep control of the board until the game ends.  The aggro variants want a temporary control of the board, if any control at all, and are happy to do the last 10+ points of damage by zipping chargers and direct damage past tauntless minions.

Standard zoo does not want Leeroy.  Sometimes you might put Leeroy in standard zoo just for surprise factor, but in a vacuum, you don't put him in standard zoo.  Since Leeroy does not help maintain control of the board in turns 1-6 he will never be played, and inevitably Doomguard or Soulfire will pitch him away before standard zoo's 1/5 shieldbearers have poked the enemy down to six health.  It's better to run a 1 drop in Leeroy's place that can jump out of hand before Doomguard can pitch him (or her), or another board control card.

Standard zoo has 2 Defenders of Argus at rare, 2 Young Priestesses at rare, and 2 Doomguards at epic. So it's a pretty cheap deck, and it's the only proven legendless deck afaik.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 19, 2014, 07:29:08 am
Standard zoo has 2 Defenders of Argus at rare, 2 Young Priestesses at rare, and 2 Doomguards at epic. So it's a pretty cheap deck, and it's the only proven legendless deck afaik.

You had good Legendless hunters, who are weaker now that UTH is nerfed.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 19, 2014, 08:10:27 am
Ranked is funny for me right now.  I'm at rank 17 (maybe up to 15 or 16 now?  I forget) but it is hard for me to improve my deck because I feel like I can play anything and win.

To test this hypothesis I literally chose cards at random for a Warlock deck.  This is the result:

(http://i.imgur.com/Bq7j6UA.jpg)
(Cards not visible: Stranglethorn Tiger, Boulderfist Ogre, Stormwind Champion, War Golem)

I won, of course.  Best part was having no idea what to mulligan, because I didn't even look at what was in my deck until after the game.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 19, 2014, 12:05:50 pm
http://arenamastery.com/Co2k

1-3 Druid.  Saw exactly one of my 3 Wraths in four games, and neither Druid of the Claw at any time.  Worst moment:  Ironbark Protector hit by Freezing Trap. :(  The game was otherwise won, but instead I lost.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 19, 2014, 12:19:42 pm
You gotta be careful with secrets, man!  I always just have a list of secrets open and always assume that it is the worst possible secret. 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 19, 2014, 12:43:00 pm
http://arenamastery.com/Co2k

1-3 Druid.  Saw exactly one of my 3 Wraths in four games, and neither Druid of the Claw at any time.  Worst moment:  Ironbark Protector hit by Freezing Trap. :(  The game was otherwise won, but instead I lost.

Draft comments:
2. Soul of the Forest over Frostwolf Warlord is insane to me. For SotF to have any value, you need to have at least 2-3 minions on board, in which case Warlord is a 7/7 or 8/8 for 5, which is much better than 2-3 2/2s showing up later.
4. Molten Giant is really good in constructed, but really bad in arena. The big difference is that you're unlikely to have a way to make him taunt in arena. I take the pirate captain (aka vanilla 3/3) here.
16. I think Crusader > Ironbark, especially since you have 2 giants and 2 big taunts already. Remember, all games have a turn 3, but not all games have a turn 8.
20. Kodo > Twilight Drake in general, I think. It's just so good at dealing with aggro.
24. Dragonhawk is kind of unpickable. Is this about your lack of 2-drop minions? Dragonhawk doesn't really rectify that. Is the plan to use it to allow you to cantrip your wraths to kill 3/2s? Maybe that's a possibility, but it seems like wishful thinking for not that much improvement. I'd just take Ogre Magi here.
26. Owl is easily the worst card here. Starfire and Crusader are easy 2-for-1s. Owl is not even going to be worth a card a lot of the time.
29. Like Dragonahwk, Boar is nearly unpickable. Your curve can still afford to take Lord of the Arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 19, 2014, 03:19:49 pm
Yes, those last three picks you mention were because of the really high curve I had, and in particular theOwl was for the silence.

Otherwise I'm going mostly by suggestions in various places.  Almost all the epic rankings put the Captain far down unless it's a constructed pirate deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 19, 2014, 04:33:32 pm
It's hard to justify Owl over Scarlet Crusader in general.  Owl has great utility, but it's very situational and sometimes it just never gets used effectively.  I often try to pick one up if it's not a huge value drop, but SC -> Owl is a massive drop in strength.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 19, 2014, 05:17:28 pm
http://arenamastery.com/Co2k

1-3 Druid.  Saw exactly one of my 3 Wraths in four games, and neither Druid of the Claw at any time.  Worst moment:  Ironbark Protector hit by Freezing Trap. :(  The game was otherwise won, but instead I lost.

Draft comments:
2. Soul of the Forest over Frostwolf Warlord is insane to me. For SotF to have any value, you need to have at least 2-3 minions on board, in which case Warlord is a 7/7 or 8/8 for 5, which is much better than 2-3 2/2s showing up later.
4. Molten Giant is really good in constructed, but really bad in arena. The big difference is that you're unlikely to have a way to make him taunt in arena. I take the pirate captain (aka vanilla 3/3) here.
16. I think Crusader > Ironbark, especially since you have 2 giants and 2 big taunts already. Remember, all games have a turn 3, but not all games have a turn 8.
20. Kodo > Twilight Drake in general, I think. It's just so good at dealing with aggro.
24. Dragonhawk is kind of unpickable. Is this about your lack of 2-drop minions? Dragonhawk doesn't really rectify that. Is the plan to use it to allow you to cantrip your wraths to kill 3/2s? Maybe that's a possibility, but it seems like wishful thinking for not that much improvement. I'd just take Ogre Magi here.
26. Owl is easily the worst card here. Starfire and Crusader are easy 2-for-1s. Owl is not even going to be worth a card a lot of the time.
29. Like Dragonahwk, Boar is nearly unpickable. Your curve can still afford to take Lord of the Arena.

I agree with all of these, although I'm very close on #20.  The other thing that I would suggest is Amani Berseker over Scarlet Crusader at #19, given that you take a crusader in 16.  You really needed 2 drops.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 19, 2014, 05:19:45 pm
It's hard to justify Owl over Scarlet Crusader in general.  Owl has great utility, but it's very situational and sometimes it just never gets used effectively.  I often try to pick one up if it's not a huge value drop, but SC -> Owl is a massive drop in strength.

I really, really dislike owl.  It's situational, and even when it's good, it's not that big of a swing to justify playing a 2/1 for 2 that dies easily.  It's great when you silence Tirion, but how often does that really come up?

I would probably rather have the murloc that makes a 2/1 and a 1/1.  I don't want either, though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 19, 2014, 05:23:16 pm
Actually, I almost certainly would take Twilight Drake over Kodo at that point.  Yeah Kodo's great, but at that point in the draft the deck already has:  (Frostwolf Warlord), Druid of the Claw, Fen Creeper, Stranglethorn Tiger at 5, and only Ogre Magi and Stormwind Knight at 4.  Kodo is better than all of those 5s, but I think diversifying is more important, and I think that having a quality 4 drop is more important than having a quality 5 drop.  The power level at 5 previous to the pick is also way higher than the power level at 4.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 19, 2014, 05:46:22 pm
Yes, those last three picks you mention were because of the really high curve I had, and in particular theOwl was for the silence.

You shouldn't overreact to your curve. It's okay to take an average card over a great one, or a below-average card over a slightly-less-below-average card, but there are some cards you just don't pick regardless of curve. For me, the "never pick" neutral commons are: Thrallmar, Dalaran Mage, Shieldbearer, Boar, Footman, Silverback, Magma Rager, Dragonhawk, Wisp, and Grimscale.

The point of having a "good" curve is that you want stuff to play so that you don't waste your mana. The problem with things like Dragonhawk or Boar is that even if you do spend your mana on it, it has no impact, so you might as well have just not spent the mana. It really doesn't buy you anything most of the time.

Quote
Otherwise I'm going mostly by suggestions in various places.  Almost all the epic rankings put the Captain far down unless it's a constructed pirate deck.

Then whatever rankings you're looking at are kind of questionable. A vanilla 3/3 is an acceptable 3-drop. It trades with all 3-drops other than Scarlet Crusader. I think the Captain is unquestionably ranked 5 out of 10 neutral epics.
Good-Great: Sea Giant, BGH, Faceless, Blood Knight
Average: Captain, Murloc Warleader
Bad: Molten Giant, Doomsayer
Unpickable: Mountain Giant, Crab

It's hard to justify Owl over Scarlet Crusader in general.  Owl has great utility, but it's very situational and sometimes it just never gets used effectively.  I often try to pick one up if it's not a huge value drop, but SC -> Owl is a massive drop in strength.

I never take any neutral above Scarlet Crusader other than Sen'jin or Yeti. Like ever. Scarlet Crusader is the business in area. Pyromancer and Knife Juggler are rare, so the only good common answers to Crusader are Earthshock, Arcane Missiles, and lucky Mad Bomber. It's really hard to not gain an advantage with Crusader.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 19, 2014, 05:50:35 pm
Actually, I almost certainly would take Twilight Drake over Kodo at that point.  Yeah Kodo's great, but at that point in the draft the deck already has:  (Frostwolf Warlord), Druid of the Claw, Fen Creeper, Stranglethorn Tiger at 5, and only Ogre Magi and Stormwind Knight at 4.  Kodo is better than all of those 5s, but I think diversifying is more important, and I think that having a quality 4 drop is more important than having a quality 5 drop.  The power level at 5 previous to the pick is also way higher than the power level at 4.

Yeah, I think you're right on this one. Kodo isn't *that* much better than Twilight Drake, so this is a reasonable mana curve consideration.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 19, 2014, 08:23:35 pm
Then whatever rankings you're looking at are kind of questionable. A vanilla 3/3 is an acceptable 3-drop. It trades with all 3-drops other than Scarlet Crusader. I think the Captain is unquestionably ranked 5 out of 10 neutral epics.

Well, I sometimes use Arena Mastery's ranking, and sometimes Icy Veins:  http://hearthstone.icy-veins.com/arena-druid-card-rankings-spreadsheet

A vanilla 3/3, though, is worse than several mediocre commons--Earthen Ring Farseer and Ironfur Grizzly, for instance.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 19, 2014, 09:19:51 pm
^I think the most reasonable rankings are here (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/arena-strategy/1972-massans-guide-to-midrange-arena). But that doesn't have class-specific stuff.

Yes Southsea Captain is worse than Grizzly, but that doesn't affect how it compares to other epics. Epics are not necessarily better than commons, they're just more rare. The meaningful comparison is between a vanilla 3/3 and Molten Giant. Molten Giant is bad. Sometimes it's great, but it's just too narrow. It's going to sit in your hand for a while, hoping for a chance to be played, but often won't find a spot until your near death, at which point it won't save you. I'd rather have a mediocre minion I can be sure to play without losing any tempo.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 19, 2014, 09:33:56 pm
That's frankly bizarre.  Try the Trump Arena rankings: http://www.liquidhearth.com/guides/arena-tier-list

In general I prioritize $2-$4 vanilla+ minions over all else.  Chillwind Yeti, Dark Iron Dwarf, and Harvest Golem are the best examples.  They are almost always 2-for-1.  Ironbeak Owl is a luxury when you have a ton of strong vanilla+ minions and need some utility.  The only utility minion I will always take over the vanilla+ dudes is Water Elemental.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 19, 2014, 10:39:10 pm
Silver testtttt
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 20, 2014, 10:48:49 am
Decided yesterday that I'll focus on constructed and open boosters instead of playing Arena. Second or third booster in - YSERA!

Yay. I also got 1375 dust, was planning on getting Leeroy but might get a more control-y Legend instead to go with my Ysera.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 20, 2014, 11:30:10 pm
Backtracking a bit to the Deathwing in arena discussion, I think he's even worse than I gave him credit for. I just drafted Deathwing in an arena the other day, and in 10 games I managed to play it exactly ZERO times. Granted I didn't have the right curve for it (you want to have a very low curve so your hand is nearly empty when you play it), but man, it's hard to get into a situation where you want to use it. While it can be a blowout when you play it, it's just soo hard to actually get into that situation. I think I'd rather have even something like Harrison Jones most of the time...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 20, 2014, 11:39:24 pm
The problem is that you underrate Harrison Jones.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 21, 2014, 09:12:33 am
So two arena runs in a row with zero Epics available to me...lame.

I did just get my first Legendary from a pack!!!!

...but it's a King Krush...which is underwhelming to me.  Am I wrong?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 21, 2014, 01:13:52 pm
...but it's a King Krush...which is underwhelming to me.  Am I wrong?

Sorry :(. Yeah I'm pretty sure King Krush is the least used class-specific legendary. The issue is that due to the Hunter hero power, Hunter tends to play more aggressive, and 9 mana is just way past the curve.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 21, 2014, 02:21:54 pm
King Krush is the hunter pyroblast. The challenge is building a hunter deck that wants pyroblast.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 21, 2014, 02:42:34 pm
Yeah, I don't really want anything bigger than a 6 (Highmane or something similar) in my Hunter deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 21, 2014, 04:26:54 pm
King Krush is the hunter pyroblast. The challenge is building a hunter deck that wants pyroblast.

No, I'm pretty sure it is not that hard at all to build a hunter deck that wants Pyroblast.  Pyroblast has 25% more card-efficiency, and ignores taunt, which is critical at the higher amounts of mana.

King Krush is actually worse than Ragnaros even in hunter, during the midrange hunter era I ran Ragnaros occasionally but not KK.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 21, 2014, 04:29:30 pm
This was just posted in the hearthstone subreddit, but worth mentioning. Tomorrow is your last day to turn your UtHs into bonus dust.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 21, 2014, 05:19:29 pm
Decided yesterday that I'll focus on constructed and open boosters instead of playing Arena. Second or third booster in - YSERA!

Yay. I also got 1375 dust, was planning on getting Leeroy but might get a more control-y Legend instead to go with my Ysera.

Leeroy is one of the top crafting priorities if you don't have a specific deck in mind. It opens up so many deck possibilities compared to the other legendaries. It's even used in control decks as a burst finish. I has essentially replaced Jaraxxus in handlock.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 21, 2014, 08:29:38 pm
So two arena runs in a row with zero Epics available to me...lame.

I did just get my first Legendary from a pack!!!!

...but it's a King Krush...which is underwhelming to me.  Am I wrong?

And 3rd arena run in a row with nothing but commons and a few rares.  WTH?

As for King Krush, well of course I had to try to build a deck around him anyway.  I've found...he's an okay finisher, I guess.

Like, I find I'm just working to get my opponent to 8 health by turn 9 with no Taunts.  Or something similar with other minions alive.  So it's like a half-damage, half-control mostly beast deck that just bides it's time while doing average damage.

But then, it's like, in the 4 games I've drawn him, once the guy concedes on Turn 8 because he's going to lose anyway, once I get to use him to win, and the other two times he's just cut down in one turn after I'm forced to slam him into a Taunt.

He's like a fancy extra side dish, not a great main course.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 21, 2014, 08:40:28 pm
I just got freeze maged in arena!  My opponent literally never attacked me, but played the following cards:

Alexstrasza, 2x Ice Block, 2x Frost Nova, Pyroblast, Fireball, Blizzard.

Man am I glad that's not a good constructed deck anymore.. was not fun to play against.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 22, 2014, 01:30:18 am
Are those patch notes a joke? That doesn't seem like good documentation.  "resolved various bugs and issues".
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 22, 2014, 09:19:17 am
Are those patch notes a joke? That doesn't seem like good documentation.  "resolved various bugs and issues".

Still better than Goko.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 22, 2014, 10:42:32 am
As for King Krush, well of course I had to try to build a deck around him anyway.  I've found...he's an okay finisher, I guess.

Like, I find I'm just working to get my opponent to 8 health by turn 9 with no Taunts.  Or something similar with other minions alive.  So it's like a half-damage, half-control mostly beast deck that just bides it's time while doing average damage.

But then, it's like, in the 4 games I've drawn him, once the guy concedes on Turn 8 because he's going to lose anyway, once I get to use him to win, and the other two times he's just cut down in one turn after I'm forced to slam him into a Taunt.

He's like a fancy extra side dish, not a great main course.

If you're just using King Krush as an 8 damage burst, then you're not getting any real value out of him. He might as well be 8/1 instead of 8/8. You can do the same damage in 1 card and 6 mana instead of 9 with Leeroy+hero power. To really take advantage of King Krush, you need to use him more like Alexstrasza than Leeroy. Like instead of charging your opponent down to 0 health, make it more like 10 health leaving an 8/8 on the board which they have to find a way to deal with. This requires playing much slower than a typical Hunter deck, like a full-out control deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 22, 2014, 12:25:30 pm
This new shaman card is really, really, really good:

https://twitter.com/playhearthstone/status/469357019007180800
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 22, 2014, 12:39:27 pm
I like it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 22, 2014, 12:57:28 pm
I think leeroys going to have to get nerfed. This card just gives yet another class a one turn kill with leeroy
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 22, 2014, 01:04:27 pm
This new shaman card is really, really, really good:

https://twitter.com/playhearthstone/status/469357019007180800

Ooo I like it. It's going to be especially nice with all the new deathrattle cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: popsofctown on May 22, 2014, 03:00:49 pm
I think leeroys going to have to get nerfed. This card just gives yet another class a one turn kill with leeroy
Shaman already had Leeroy OTKs.  Especially with, y'know, that other two mana shaman spell that allows Leeroy to attack again.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 22, 2014, 04:07:31 pm
I think leeroys going to have to get nerfed. This card just gives yet another class a one turn kill with leeroy

Shaman could already OTK with Leeroy+Rockbiter+Windfury (and whatever else). This is just 6 more damage for 2 mana, which is okay, but second Rockbiter or Flametongue can also add 6 damage for 1 or 2. It adds another option but doesn't create a OTK that wasn't there before.

The cooler combos are with deathrattle. Sylvanas+Rebirth is huge blowout potential.

It also doubles as a silence of battlecries/buffs, I think. Like Edwin should turn back into a 2/2, and AoW into a 5/5, etc.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 22, 2014, 06:54:42 pm
I think leeroys going to have to get nerfed. This card just gives yet another class a one turn kill with leeroy
Shaman already had Leeroy OTKs.  Especially with, y'know, that other two mana shaman spell that allows Leeroy to attack again.

I agree that it did, but this 2 mana spell is way better than that 2 mana spell.  Windfury is not a good card outside of finishing, while Rebirth has a lot of versatility with Deathrattle cards (Sylvanas in particular), and even uses outside of that.. like HME said, it's a silence sometimes.  Plus, redundancy isn't a bad thing, especially for a deck like Shaman which doesn't have lifetap like Warlock does or quite as much synergy with Auctioneer as rogue does.

Shaman could do it before, but this makes it a lot more consistent while adding a card that has uses outside of a OTK.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 22, 2014, 07:57:24 pm
http://arenamastery.com/C6wW

This may have been my worst draft ever.  Yes, it went 0-3 in very short order.  No, none of the games were even close.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 22, 2014, 10:12:36 pm
http://arenamastery.com/C6wW

This may have been my worst draft ever.  Yes, it went 0-3 in very short order.  No, none of the games were even close.

That deck looks fine to me.  Shrug.

I don't really like shiv that much, though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 22, 2014, 11:22:04 pm
What do people think of the new Shaman card that'll be coming out?

"Destroy a minion and return it to life with full health." (images are beyond my abilities here)

I don't see it being amazing at first glance. I mean it's ok as a buff removal, but Hex is only 1 mana more and pretty much better. It could be good with divine shield, but otherwise it'll be an expensive Ancestral healing.

Oh yeah and Deathrattles will be good with it. but Still don't see it as amazing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2014, 11:33:18 pm
What do people think of the new Shaman card that'll be coming out?

"Destroy a minion and return it to life with full health." (images are beyond my abilities here)

I don't see it being amazing at first glance. I mean it's ok as a buff removal, but Hex is only 1 mana more and pretty much better. It could be good with divine shield, but otherwise it'll be an expensive Ancestral healing.

Oh yeah and Deathrattles will be good with it. but Still don't see it as amazing.

Isn't it meant to be used on your own minions most of the time, usually un-silencing or bring it back to full strength after a few hits?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 22, 2014, 11:44:50 pm
What do people think of the new Shaman card that'll be coming out?

"Destroy a minion and return it to life with full health." (images are beyond my abilities here)

I don't see it being amazing at first glance. I mean it's ok as a buff removal, but Hex is only 1 mana more and pretty much better. It could be good with divine shield, but otherwise it'll be an expensive Ancestral healing.

Oh yeah and Deathrattles will be good with it. but Still don't see it as amazing.

Isn't it meant to be used on your own minions most of the time, usually un-silencing or bring it back to full strength after a few hits?

I saw some comments that it could be good with Sylvannas Windrunner, or Cairne. Ancestral Healing is better at healing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 22, 2014, 11:49:27 pm
It's be cool if it could un-polymorph, but I'm assuming that doesn't work.

I think it's like, for a cheap example, my Senjin got silenced, so I destroy it and return it to life with Taunt again.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 23, 2014, 07:16:17 am
You can Leeroy, attack, kill him, attack again for 12 burst, among things you've already mentioned (Cairne adding huge value to already quite high value guy being probably the best).
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 23, 2014, 10:01:25 am
You can Leeroy, attack, kill him, attack again for 12 burst, among things you've already mentioned (Cairne adding huge value to already quite high value guy being probably the best).

If Leeroy dies you can't play this card on him. It's immediat. But yeah, Leeroy was also a good contender for this card. It seems pretty specialised though.

EDIT: Actually, with the new "Deathrattle play twice" Legendary, you could play on Cairne say and spawn 2 4/5's and still have Cairne.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 23, 2014, 10:52:16 am
Oh, btw I uninstalled then reinstalled battle.net and my friends list got wiped. So I added everyone again, you can just accept the request that you would be coolio.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 23, 2014, 07:53:02 pm
Mages continue to find ways to make me hate them.

Immune to fatal attacks?  What?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 23, 2014, 08:39:51 pm
Mages continue to find ways to make me hate them.

Immune to fatal attacks?  What?

Sure, but only once!  And it's an Epic...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 23, 2014, 10:32:26 pm
Mages continue to find ways to make me hate them.

Immune to fatal attacks?  What?

Sure, but only once!  And it's an Epic...

It costs so little, cast it early and forget it.  By the time it's use, you've drawn your second.

I think rareness isn't an inhibitor to play.  Cards costs more (mana) to make them harder to "obtain" in the King's Court sense, I suppose.  But since all cards are "obtainable," it's epic doesn't really work as a card balance mechanic.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 23, 2014, 10:53:25 pm
Just did my first 12-0 arena run. The deck looked good but I wasn't expecting such a good run off it. (It's a Paladin deck with no Truesilver Champion or Consecration!) Instead, most games were total blow-outs, so obviously I'm not good at judging arena deck quality. Some of my opponents were pretty bad, and/or had bad decks, and/or had bad luck, so I'm not convinced that it's just the deck quality at work.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2; (http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2;)

It's a two legendary deck. Amusingly, for the first legendary pick, I was offered choice of: Nat Pagle, Tinkmaster, Nozdormu. That's 3 of the 4 legendaries in Trump's "terrible" tier. Then in one game, I played Pagle and got three straight draws from him, and he eventually drew an Eviscerate. That's value.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 24, 2014, 12:17:21 am
Just did my first 12-0 arena run. The deck looked good but I wasn't expecting such a good run off it. (It's a Paladin deck with no Truesilver Champion or Consecration!) Instead, most games were total blow-outs, so obviously I'm not good at judging arena deck quality. Some of my opponents were pretty bad, and/or had bad decks, and/or had bad luck, so I'm not convinced that it's just the deck quality at work.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2; (http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2;)

It's a two legendary deck. Amusingly, for the first legendary pick, I was offered choice of: Nat Pagle, Tinkmaster, Nozdormu. That's 3 of the 4 legendaries in Trump's "terrible" tier. Then in one game, I played Pagle and got three straight draws from him, and he eventually drew an Eviscerate. That's value.

Eviscerate is a Rogue card. Paladin deck?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 24, 2014, 12:46:03 am
Why am I seeing 1-2 legendary decks in casual play?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 24, 2014, 12:48:39 am
Why am I seeing 1-2 legendary decks in casual play?

Casual play still tries to find people with similar decks. They have some method to do this, no one know what it is exactly, but it takes into account things like # of games played, # of wins, legendary cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 24, 2014, 12:58:42 am
Just did my first 12-0 arena run. The deck looked good but I wasn't expecting such a good run off it. (It's a Paladin deck with no Truesilver Champion or Consecration!) Instead, most games were total blow-outs, so obviously I'm not good at judging arena deck quality. Some of my opponents were pretty bad, and/or had bad decks, and/or had bad luck, so I'm not convinced that it's just the deck quality at work.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2; (http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilder/paladin#19:1;23:1;29:1;33:1;74:2;84:1;140:1;142:2;157:1;174:1;191:1;213:2;250:1;283:2;305:1;326:1;350:2;392:1;463:1;475:1;509:1;557:1;627:1;648:2;)

It's a two legendary deck. Amusingly, for the first legendary pick, I was offered choice of: Nat Pagle, Tinkmaster, Nozdormu. That's 3 of the 4 legendaries in Trump's "terrible" tier. Then in one game, I played Pagle and got three straight draws from him, and he eventually drew an Eviscerate. That's value.

Eviscerate is a Rogue card. Paladin deck?

blueblimp means the enemy Rogue burned an Eviscerate to kill Pagle.

I think I'm rusty in my Hearthstone, started a new arena run and went 0-2 right off the bat. So far I'm 2-2, but I'd be glad to even hit 3 wins at this point, drafted really badly.

Edit: Well, ended at 5-3 somehow. Turns out my deck was good if it could maintain control of the board, and absolutely awful as soon as it lost it. One Starfire for removal, and 2 Abominations as AoE damage, and that was it, but a decent number of 2 and 3 drops and lots of taunt at the upper end of my curve.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 24, 2014, 03:38:47 am
Mages continue to find ways to make me hate them.

Immune to fatal attacks?  What?

Sure, but only once!  And it's an Epic...

And again it thwarts me!  It's one thing to block the killing blow, but it makes you deathproof, too.  So frustrating.  I have a perfect losing record against mages who play it.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 24, 2014, 09:27:20 am
I don't understand what's so frustrating about a card that delays the killing blow by one turn.  If I could beat you last turn, I'm rated pretty high to beat you next turn it seems.

It's like saying a Hail Mary pass is unfair
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 24, 2014, 09:38:50 am
I think rareness isn't an inhibitor to play.  Cards costs more (mana) to make them harder to "obtain" in the King's Court sense, I suppose.  But since all cards are "obtainable," it's epic doesn't really work as a card balance mechanic.

Rarity only matters in Arena.

I don't understand what's so frustrating about a card that delays the killing blow by one turn.  If I could beat you last turn, I'm rated pretty high to beat you next turn it seems.

It's like saying a Hail Mary pass is unfair

"I could've bought the last Province if you wouldn't have bought it."
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 24, 2014, 09:40:39 am
I have only run into a few matches that close in Hearthstone; I tend to find that they're won in the middle game mostly, and the finishing is a formality.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Lekkit on May 24, 2014, 12:45:27 pm
It's not that unusual to have like 10 damage on the board, and the opponent can either kill off your minions along with his and play new ones, or if you're down to that much life, kill you. With Ice Block, you just wasted a turn of minion killing in favor of winning, which usually is correct. If you know it's Ice Block, you just kill off their minions and it's not that big a deal.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 25, 2014, 05:09:21 pm
Happiness is:  Defeating a deck with at least five legendaries in it.

Even more fun was the endgame:

Opponent:  King Krush
Me:  Big Game Hunter, Brewmaster
Opponent:  Deathwing
Me:  Big Game Hunter plus some little stuff
Opponent:  (Topdecks) King Mukla
Me:  Mukla gives +2/+2 to BGH, then do ALL the damage

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 25, 2014, 05:11:15 pm
Me:  Big Game Hunter, Brewmaster
Opponent:  Deathwing
Me:  Big Game Hunter plus some little stuff
I gotta say, playing Deathwing after your opponent just brewed a BGH has got to be one of the worst possible plays in the game. That's pretty funny.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 25, 2014, 06:01:15 pm
Me:  Big Game Hunter, Brewmaster
Opponent:  Deathwing
Me:  Big Game Hunter plus some little stuff
I gotta say, playing Deathwing after your opponent just brewed a BGH has got to be one of the worst possible plays in the game. That's pretty funny.

Well, I had just about enough on my board to kill him.  So he traded DW for a crapton of minions, and left me with a 4/2.  But having a dead hand... hurts.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 25, 2014, 11:27:44 pm
I finally started playing Hearthstone a week ago.  I love the Arena.  I jumped into the Arena as soon as I got out of the AI grind and have been in there almost exclusively.  As a former magic player I picked the game up pretty quickly.  Had my first 12-win Arena run yesterday, very next Arena I get another 12-winner! I imagine that will be a hard record for me to ever replicate.

Such a simple game but very quick and a lot of fun, I'm addicted to it for now.  I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.  I certainly wish Arena had rankings in the way constructed does though.  Overall I give the Hearthstone experience an 8.5/10.  The free-to-play grind isn't bad at all and the economy of Arena is rewarding to good players.   I would say Dominion is a better game but it will never get a taste of the popularity Hearthstone has(I didn't see it but I'm reading that the Arena tournament today topped out at 50k viewers on stream!). 
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: shraeye on May 25, 2014, 11:42:20 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.

Good play beats expensive decks super often.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 26, 2014, 11:27:30 am
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 26, 2014, 12:54:53 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2014, 12:59:36 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 26, 2014, 01:55:02 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.

I think they try, but they allow a wide threshold of error, so in ranked it would probably make you wait a long time to make sure you found someone close to you in rank, but in unranked it tries for someone close to you, but will be more inclined to match you with someone innappropriate to your deck consistency if there was no one else available. Unranked matchmaking favours a shorter wait time over fairer games.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 26, 2014, 02:26:39 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.

None of those cards are actually top-tier cards, though... so it could be that you were playing against a bad player who had legendaries.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 26, 2014, 02:43:52 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.

I think they try, but they allow a wide threshold of error, so in ranked it would probably make you wait a long time to make sure you found someone close to you in rank, but in unranked it tries for someone close to you, but will be more inclined to match you with someone innappropriate to your deck consistency if there was no one else available. Unranked matchmaking favours a shorter wait time over fairer games.

I assume ranked it strictly by rank, so you play someone with the same rank as you.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 26, 2014, 03:17:05 pm


They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.
[/quote]

I know that, and have been building gold here and there in casual play, the distinction I was trying to make was when I said "competitively" in the original statement
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 26, 2014, 05:32:55 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.

I think they try, but they allow a wide threshold of error, so in ranked it would probably make you wait a long time to make sure you found someone close to you in rank, but in unranked it tries for someone close to you, but will be more inclined to match you with someone innappropriate to your deck consistency if there was no one else available. Unranked matchmaking favours a shorter wait time over fairer games.

I assume ranked it strictly by rank, so you play someone with the same rank as you.

I can say with certainty that it's not totally strict. You play someone who isn't too far off in rank from you. So an 18 might end up with a game against a 19 or a 16. Proof, this has happened to me many times.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 26, 2014, 06:45:44 pm
This just happened in Arena... #priestmirrors I guess

(http://i.imgur.com/YNLC4Cx.png)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2014, 06:46:25 pm
Two Faceless?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 26, 2014, 07:17:09 pm
I Thoughtstole one and played it, he Mind Controlled it and then Facelessed and played his own.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 26, 2014, 08:21:45 pm
Hearthstone does indeed reward playing well, however there are very good players with very good cards and those are the people I would want to beat once I make my way into constructed ;)

They still pair you roughly with people with similar decks in casual play, so you can still build up a collection before tackling Warlocks with Giants.

I have to doubt this.  I was playing a Paladin deck with 1 Epic and perhaps 5 Rares, and got matched (as mentioned above) with a deck containing Krush, Hogger, Deathwing, Mukla, and Nat Pagle.  And I was getting similar mismatches in unrated as well.

I think they try, but they allow a wide threshold of error, so in ranked it would probably make you wait a long time to make sure you found someone close to you in rank, but in unranked it tries for someone close to you, but will be more inclined to match you with someone innappropriate to your deck consistency if there was no one else available. Unranked matchmaking favours a shorter wait time over fairer games.

I assume ranked it strictly by rank, so you play someone with the same rank as you.

I can say with certainty that it's not totally strict. You play someone who isn't too far off in rank from you. So an 18 might end up with a game against a 19 or a 16. Proof, this has happened to me many times.

Well some of that is the fact that 0 star 19 is the same as 3 star 18. But I think you are right.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on May 26, 2014, 08:26:11 pm
This is the brag board, right? When I drafted this I didn't think it was anything special, but it got me to 12 wins all the same. I think this is the first arena deck I've ever had fit on one screen also.

[img width="640" height="480"]http://i.imgur.com/vVH8fw8.jpg[/img]
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 26, 2014, 09:11:43 pm

Here is my 12 win mage, nice one pager, wish I could play with this one every time:  http://i.imgur.com/RcqkoAd.jpg

3 Flamestrike
3 Water Elemental
2 Azure Drake
2 Fireball

<Drool>

Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2014, 09:26:57 pm

Here is my 12 win mage, nice one pager, wish I could play with this one every time:  http://i.imgur.com/RcqkoAd.jpg

3 Flamestrike
3 Water Elemental
2 Azure Drake
2 Fireball

<Drool>


Damn.  There's just not a single truly bad pick among those cards.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 26, 2014, 09:46:16 pm

Here is my 12 win mage, nice one pager, wish I could play with this one every time:  http://i.imgur.com/RcqkoAd.jpg

3 Flamestrike
3 Water Elemental
2 Azure Drake
2 Fireball

<Drool>


Damn.  There's just not a single truly bad pick among those cards.
Arcane Explosion (x2), Ironbeak Owl and Tauren Warrior are all fairly weak in arena, though maybe the presence of the Drakes, Pyromancers, and Violet Teacher make the Arcane Explosion more useful than it normally would be. Still, apart from those cards, the rest range from good through outstanding.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2014, 11:09:10 pm
http://arenamastery.com/bjKf

I'd be happy for any commentary on what I messed up here, other than getting offered very few good 2s through the whole draft.

(This went 1-3)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 27, 2014, 12:02:59 am
http://arenamastery.com/bjKf

I'd be happy for any commentary on what I messed up here, other than getting offered very few good 2s through the whole draft.

(This went 1-3)

Basically yeah, no 2's or 3's. Bluegill isn't that bad. Neither is Loot hoarder and by the end you really need 2's and 3's so that you aren't sitting around doing nothing until turn 4. Actually my best paladin decks have a good peak at 4, with some good 5's and 7's.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 27, 2014, 12:32:39 am
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 27, 2014, 12:56:50 am
http://arenamastery.com/bjKf

I'd be happy for any commentary on what I messed up here, other than getting offered very few good 2s through the whole draft.

(This went 1-3)

Well you got offered some 2s, but unfortunately they were mostly early against good stuff. You should have also taken the Bluegill. Still, it's not a complete loss. You have enough 2s, even though you only have one "good" one. Dire Wolf is pretty good in Paladin, since you can hero power turn 2, then Dire Wolf to trade the token for a 3/2. The Dire Wolf is a bit small for a turn 3 play, but you avoid having a bad turn 2 and you make up the one bad turn with the strong turn 4 plays. Argent Squire also works great with the Dire Wolves, so your early game is in decent shape.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 27, 2014, 10:00:05 am
How bad is Holy Wrath?!

Also Argent Protector is amazing!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 27, 2014, 11:23:55 am
This is the most nuts Arena draft I've ever gotten.

http://imgur.com/dXOmpKJ

Not pictured: Assassinate, Argent Protector, 2 Kidnappers, Sylvanas Windrunner.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 27, 2014, 11:31:45 am
In retrospect the Kidnappers don't seem as good as I thought, but in this deck they seem to work well. (I probably should have taken the Sea Giant over the second one, but the first one was against a Patient Assassin and I think a Crab.)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 27, 2014, 01:20:28 pm
http://arenamastery.com/bjKf

I'd be happy for any commentary on what I messed up here, other than getting offered very few good 2s through the whole draft.

(This went 1-3)

Well you got offered some 2s, but unfortunately they were mostly early against good stuff. You should have also taken the Bluegill. Still, it's not a complete loss. You have enough 2s, even though you only have one "good" one. Dire Wolf is pretty good in Paladin, since you can hero power turn 2, then Dire Wolf to trade the token for a 3/2. The Dire Wolf is a bit small for a turn 3 play, but you avoid having a bad turn 2 and you make up the one bad turn with the strong turn 4 plays. Argent Squire also works great with the Dire Wolves, so your early game is in decent shape.


Of course that assumes you draw a wolf in your first ten or so cards (including mulligans).  One thing you cannot do in HS is to make your own shuffle luck!
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 27, 2014, 02:24:54 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ycz6 on May 27, 2014, 02:39:11 pm
In retrospect the Kidnappers don't seem as good as I thought, but in this deck they seem to work well. (I probably should have taken the Sea Giant over the second one, but the first one was against a Patient Assassin and I think a Crab.)
Kidnapper is widely considered one of the worst cards in the entire game, so... yeah, I'd go with something else. Patient Assassin is not bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 27, 2014, 03:04:26 pm
In retrospect the Kidnappers don't seem as good as I thought, but in this deck they seem to work well. (I probably should have taken the Sea Giant over the second one, but the first one was against a Patient Assassin and I think a Crab.)
Kidnapper is widely considered one of the worst cards in the entire game, so... yeah, I'd go with something else. Patient Assassin is not bad.

Patient Assassin is ok. Is kidnapper really that bad? I don't have any in my collection and only actually played him once of twice in arena.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 27, 2014, 03:57:44 pm
He just really, really suffers from the fact that he's a 5/3 for 6, and trades with a lot of 2 drops.

If you're in a case where you have a board and they have a single minion, it's a fine card.  6 mana for a bounce and 5 attack isn't a bad trade.  It's pretty similar to a Frost Elemental in that case.

But when your opponent has multiple minions, he's just awful.  Nearly every minion trades for him, and while he theoretically generates "tempo", you lose that tempo because you spent your turn playing a 5/3 for 6 mana.  He's just not high enough impact when you're behind or when you're even to justify his inclusion over nearly any other card.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 27, 2014, 05:07:00 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 27, 2014, 05:26:52 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...

Or not because then I hate you.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 27, 2014, 05:28:53 pm
Sea Giant also happens to be one of the best arena cards. Think of how good Ogre is, which is 6/7 for 6 mana, and then think about how often in arena there are 4 minions on the board, allowing you to play Sea Giant, an 8/8, for 6 mana.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 27, 2014, 05:40:51 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...
Zoo is IMO quite boring to play. I've recently been enjoying burst-oriented combo decks like Miracle Rogue and Kolento's special tactics warlock. For these kinds of decks, the only vital legendary is Leeroy, although even without it, you might be able to sub Arcane Golem for it and still win some games. Thalnos and (for Miracle Rogue) Edwin increase the deck strength a lot, but you can get by without them.

Miracle Rogue in particular is worth enjoying before it inevitably gets nerfed. It's the closest thing Hearthstone has to Dominion's megaturn engines, in that you can play a huge number of cards when your Auctioneer is out, and tend to finish games having cycled through nearly your entire deck.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 27, 2014, 05:49:45 pm
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...

Or not because then I hate you.

The QQ tears of my Zoolock enemies are delicious.  Heck, I didn't even realize I wasn't playing "proper" Zoolock and was putting in Yetis and other random cards, but still winning with the basic principle that all my stuff should be under <$5.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 27, 2014, 05:56:43 pm
Zoolock is just so effective, time-wise, though a couple of clears will ruin your day. I have tried out a miracle rogue deck and it is fun, but subbing a Questing Adventurer for Van Cleef is not as effective, and also lacking the Thalnos. I have been trying out an aggro Mage deck, again missing the Thalnos- the draw is worth a fair amount- my 2cost +1Spellpower guys are ok though. Again, struggling to string the wins together. Want to try and bust through lvl 10 again, so might be Zoolock time again. Or perhaps my Control Warrior deck- I have most of those power Legendaries, but not Deathwing.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 27, 2014, 06:32:40 pm
Sea Giant also happens to be one of the best arena cards. Think of how good Ogre is, which is 6/7 for 6 mana, and then think about how often in arena there are 4 minions on the board, allowing you to play Sea Giant, an 8/8, for 6 mana.

I am aware that Sea Giant is a much better card than Kidnapper. I just really wanted to play into the Combo gimmick.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 27, 2014, 11:35:18 pm
8 wins. I think the Kidnappers cost me one of them, but they were useful in some of the other games. Mostly in situations where I was playing ahead though. Still 175 gold, a golden common and a deck is nothing to complain about.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jorbles on May 27, 2014, 11:45:30 pm
Never brag guys. As soon as you brag you will open a deck containing a rare and 4 commons that you already have.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Titandrake on May 27, 2014, 11:59:05 pm
How bad is Holy Wrath?!

Also Argent Protector is amazing!

Holy Wrath is inconsistent, but I'd still take it over Ancient Mage at that point. If you hit a 3 cost, it's an expensive Hammer of Wrath, but Hammer is a nice card in arena anyways.

Argent Protector vs Consecration is a tough call to make, passing on Consecration is always very hard for me to do.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 28, 2014, 01:48:47 am
How bad is Holy Wrath?!

Also Argent Protector is amazing!

Holy Wrath is inconsistent, but I'd still take it over Ancient Mage at that point. If you hit a 3 cost, it's an expensive Hammer of Wrath, but Hammer is a nice card in arena anyways.

Argent Protector vs Consecration is a tough call to make, passing on Consecration is always very hard for me to do.

I find that in arena there are lots of high health minions that people like to pick. Consecration is amazing with other cards that can hit, survive then finish damaged minions with Consecration. But alone I don't think it'll win games. But I think vs. ancient mage Consecration wins nearly every time.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Grujah on May 28, 2014, 01:53:59 am
I don't know if I will drop a lot of $ any time soon to play the constructed competitively, probably just stick to Arena for now and see what this expansion coming out this summer does to shake things up.
If you are good enough at arena and enjoy it enough to keep playing, your collection will build itself in no time, so you most likely won't have to spend any money.

Yeah, I am starting to gather that which is why I'm holding off on dropping money on packs, spending money on Arena is much more efficient, I've spent 10 bucks to rebuy into Arenas so far and Ive opened dozens of packs.  My collection is starting to look respectable(3 legendaries, none of the great ones though).  A few more weeks with some good pack opening I figure I should be able to field several of the competitive decks.

Or just play Zoolock ...

Or not because then I hate you.

The QQ tears of my Zoolock enemies are delicious.  Heck, I didn't even realize I wasn't playing "proper" Zoolock and was putting in Yetis and other random cards, but still winning with the basic principle that all my stuff should be under <$5.

Even though I do have most of Zoolock (everything cept Young Priestesses) I do not play it, I play Hunter UTH Agro mainly (which is still strong IMO even with nerf) and some other decks as well. I admit that I do QQ when playing against Zoolock. It's mainly cuz of these two things:

1) When I see a Lock opponent, I am never sure how to mulligan. You need such different cards against Zoolock (or MurLock) and against Handlock and I always assume I'm playing the wrong one :P

2) Whenever Zoolock overcommits and I need one card to screw him, and I fail to draw it (even with Multiple Trackings) ITS FREAKING FRUSTRATING.

3) It's generally frustrating to lose a turn before you establish control, or when their only out is like: Soulfire (discard non-soulfire), Soulfire, draw, Pitlord, and they manage to do it. And that happens a lot against zoolock.

 ;D
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 28, 2014, 01:24:30 pm
How bad is Holy Wrath?!
It's bad, but not that bad. In a typical arena deck, it's on average a little more damage than Hammer for 1 mana more, which is definitely not something you prefer, but it's playable since at least it's a cantrip, if an expensive one. It's much better in high curve decks. People play it in constructed giants Paladin. Drawing Molten Giant with it is amazing.

He just really, really suffers from the fact that he's a 5/3 for 6, and trades with a lot of 2 drops.
It's not just this. It's the fact that it requires a combo. If it didn't require the combo, it might be playable. But as is, you can't really play it until like turn 8 or something.

Thalnos and (for Miracle Rogue) Edwin increase the deck strength a lot, but you can get by without them.
I'm currently running a variant of Miracle that I call "Midrange Miracle". I've removed the weaker spells like Shiv and third AoE spell, and cheaper minions like Thalnos, Edwin, Coldlight/Acolyte/Hoarder; and I've replaced them with solid normal midrange minions including 2x Farseer, 2x Teacher, 2x Azure Drake.

This makes it a little harder to churn through the deck, but it has enough positive benefits to more than offset that.
1. It allows you to do more damage in the midgame, so you don't need a full double-Shadowstep combo. Usually one Shaodwstep is enough. You can even win without Leeroy by using Cold Blood + Conceal with multiple minions on board.
2. It makes it easier to keep up in the early and midgame, so you don't have to spend your turns just playing hero power and Shiv while your opponent builds his board. In particular, the Warrior matchup is usually bad for standard Miracle Rogue, but if you're playing reasonable minions, your opponent has to take some damage axing them and won't have all the spare mana to armor up every turn to get out of burst kill range.
3. The midgame minions may draw some removal, which leaves less for your Auctioneer.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 28, 2014, 01:44:28 pm
I think the fact you don't know how much damage it is going to deal is really terrible. At least with Hammer you can fire it at whatever needs killing, here you don't know if it will flub, or overkill terribly or whatever. I could see it being better with a guaranteed heavy curve deck, but in arena especially, you don't want high curve- you want low- I can't see how on average it will be more damage than Hammer- half your deck probably is 3 cost or less, though I admit, that is leaning higher with Paladin because all the value 4's.

Currently trying out Warlock in arena again- I normally avoid because I have had terrible runs with him, however this time have a mini zoo style deck and it's gone a few wins- lack of cheap taunt is a problem though.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 28, 2014, 01:58:56 pm
I think the fact you don't know how much damage it is going to deal is really terrible. At least with Hammer you can fire it at whatever needs killing, here you don't know if it will flub, or overkill terribly or whatever. I could see it being better with a guaranteed heavy curve deck, but in arena especially, you don't want high curve- you want low- I can't see how on average it will be more damage than Hammer- half your deck probably is 3 cost or less, though I admit, that is leaning higher with Paladin because all the value 4's.

It's a terrible card for tempo (Hammer is also bad tempo, btw), but it's never card disadvantage, and sometimes advantage. If you get "lucky" and kill your 3-4 health target, you gained a card advantage. If you don't, and have to trade a minion into it to finish it off, you still came out card-neutral, and probably managed to trade up (maybe even still gained card advantage because you only needed to use a token to finish off the minion). It's below-average for sure, but it's probably around the same power level as Auctioneer, better than Ancient Mage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 28, 2014, 03:07:28 pm
Oh wow, Kidnapper requires a combo too??  I did not even know that.

Man, that card is bad.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 28, 2014, 08:23:40 pm
Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 28, 2014, 08:35:05 pm
Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?

Miracle Rogue is pretty much 2 Auctioneers and most of the rogue spells.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: blueblimp on May 28, 2014, 10:27:24 pm
Is there a "canonical" Zoolock or Miracle Rogue deck list somewhere?
LiquidHearth's power rank has example decks for each class:
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/2596-hs-class-power-ranks-may-2014 (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/2596-hs-class-power-ranks-may-2014)

That said, the miracle rogue they have there is a bit out of date compared to what streamers use and what you see on ladder. I'm currently using a list that Kolento was using as of a few days ago, except I substitute Yeti for Edwin (because I don't have Ed):

Backstab x2
Preparation x2
Shadowstep x2
Cold Blood x2
Conceal
Deadly Poison x2
Blade Flurry
Eviscerate x2
Sap
Shiv x2
Bloodmage Thalnos
Fan of Knives x2
Earthen Ring Farseer x2
Edwin VanCleef
SI:7 Agent x2
Leeroy Jenkins
Azure Drake x2
Gadgetzan Auctioneer x2

Be warned that this list is weak against handlock, for example because of only one Sap, but you still have a chance to win if they don't draw enough taunts. Having two Fans of Knives and two Earthen Ring Farseers makes it quite nice against board-flooding aggro decks like Zoo, aggro Paladin, aggro Mage.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: ashersky on May 29, 2014, 04:34:35 am
Just lost to a pally that dropped Rag - Sylvanas - Leeroy in a span of five turns.

In casual.

Casual.

Really?  Why?  I'm just trying to do quests for cash, but even casual games have become "legendaries or gtfo."
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Jdaki on May 29, 2014, 07:01:00 am
It's the end of the season- all the Legendary ranked players probably just play in Casual now, because why would they play in Ranked?
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: Kirian on May 29, 2014, 08:32:17 am
It's the end of the season- all the Legendary ranked players probably just play in Casual now, because why would they play in Ranked?

This.  For the first half of the month, it's better for those of us who are neither pay-to-win nor play-all-day to play casual.  By about halfway through the month, it's better to play in ranked.

This is a major problem with a ranking system that resets every month instead of just having a gradual decay.  And I think I just said that Goko's rating system is better than Blizzard's.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 29, 2014, 10:33:39 am
8 wins. I think the Kidnappers cost me one of them, but they were useful in some of the other games. Mostly in situations where I was playing ahead though. Still 175 gold, a golden common and a deck is nothing to complain about.
This is one of the reasons some deceptively good-looking cards are not actually good.  If it only helps you "win more", it doesn't really change any losses to wins.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 29, 2014, 12:40:35 pm
New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing :)
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: nkirbit on May 29, 2014, 02:55:15 pm
New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing :)

The change that secrets can't be activated on your own turn makes this card much, much worse.

It's interesting.  It's good value, but horrible tempo.  It's really pushed as far towards value as it can be.. it's a three drop that does absolutely nothing until you spend further mana on it at a later point.  If the game ever turns into a bunch of midrange decks mashing creatures at each other I can see this as an option, but this surely isn't an option against decks like miracle rogue.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: KingZog3 on May 29, 2014, 04:13:08 pm
New Mage secret: https://twitter.com/PlayHearthstone/status/472029659345846272/photo/1
Seems pretty good, but then again, if they hex and then kill your minion, you just get a couple of frogs... And it's probably not great for aggro, but having a chance at 5 Leeroys? That's enticing :)

The change that secrets can't be activated on your own turn makes this card much, much worse.

It's interesting.  It's good value, but horrible tempo.  It's really pushed as far towards value as it can be.. it's a three drop that does absolutely nothing until you spend further mana on it at a later point.  If the game ever turns into a bunch of midrange decks mashing creatures at each other I can see this as an option, but this surely isn't an option against decks like miracle rogue.

I think it'll get much more play than any of the other mage secrets though. It does have amazing value and that alone might be enough to see it some decks.

EDIT: New secrets have the added ability of the opponent having to check for them. that could also mean extra play options for the card.
Title: Re: Has anyone learned Hearthstone yet?
Post by: theory on May 29, 2014, 04:42:47 pm
Personally I think secrets are somewhat undervalued, since their strength i