Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Twistedarcher on July 12, 2013, 11:01:25 am
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Welcome to Blitz Mafia 15: Time for Something Completely Different
This game will use the Bird_7p setup (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bird_7P).
2 Mafia Goons
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Macho Cop
1 Doctor
Mechanics
This game uses 24 hour days, and 12 hour nights.
Mafia have nightchat.
The Macho Cop is unable to be protected from the nightkill.
Players
1. Jimmmm Mafia Goon, Lynched D2.
2. EFHW VT
3. Liopoil VT, Lynched D1.
4. Sudgy VT, Killed N1.
5. Nkirbit Mafia Goon, Lynched D3.
6. UmbrageofSnow Macho Cop
7. AsherskyDoctor
Backup Mods:
Voltaire
Day Starts:
D1 Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8843.msg271712#msg271712)
D2 Start (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8843.msg272435#msg272435)
Mafia Ruleset Changes in RED
Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. Roles with actions will not be able to submit an action during the confirmation stage
4. Players with a night action may choose to submit their action during the previous day, in case they will not be around during the night phase. They may later change this action up until the night deadline.
5. Any player with an action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1.Whomever has the most votes currently on them at lynch deadline is lynched.
1b. If there is a tie at deadline, the player with the most "unique" votes will be lynched. "Unique" votes are counted by the mods concurrently with live votes, and reflect the number of different voters who have voted for that player.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 24 HOUR deadlines. If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, the player with most votes currently on them will be lynched, and the game will go into the next night.
8. This game will have 12 HOUR nights. If a player does not have his or her night actions in after 12 hours, a random target will be selected for him or her.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, color text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game. Most or all of you have taken the Civility pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0), if you haven't I suggest you do.
Helpful Links:
- Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
- Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
- Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
- Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
- Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
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/in with the following disclaimer:
I am quite often busy, and there may well be non-insignificant stretched of time in which I won't be able to post. Lurking is NEVER my plan as scum, so if I'm not posting a lot, you can be sure it has nothing to do with my alignment. If, once the start date is confirmed, I feel like it is relatively likely that I will be lynched for lurking, I will /out before the game starts.
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/tag at least.
I do really want to play this setup, but will depend on my 7/7 schedule and if I am off or not that week. Otherwise it just isn't feasible. I will likely be the last player to /in if it looks like we are about full and we are playing at a time that I can handle. If not, I'll just watch.
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/tag.
Small chance I'd play since it's so fast, but I don't want to distract from Clue. I'd happily backup mod if you need one.
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/in
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Thanks for the offer, Voltaire. I'd rather get the game filled with players rather than co-mods, but I'll let you know if I need your help :)
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/tag
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/in
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could be in. Depends on factors.
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Same than shraeye, the most important factor being the starting day.
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What day works for you all? If we get a time that works for yuma/shraeye/Eevee, I'd be more than happy to start then.
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If you pick a date, I could possibly play, if that's alright.
Depends on the day, but in the near future the odds should be good.
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Depending on the date, I could play.
Not next week, but the week after is good for me.
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Here's an idea: all you people who are saying "Depends on the date", post what dates would work for you!
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Not next week, but the week after is good for me.
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like I mentioned in the VLA thread I am leaving on a vacation Sunday through Saturday and then will be back on my 7 on schedule.... So I won't be able to participate in this game unless it doesn't start for like... ~ 3 weeks... obviously I expect the game to be full by then, so I'll just do the stats...
Sorry.
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No problem! Enjoy the vacation. If you have time for mafia once the baby's arrived I'd be happy to run this setup again, since I know you wanted to play it.
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I would like to get this started sometime in the next week, so sign up people!
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I'll /in, and I'll /out if it doesn't start soon enough.
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I'm in.
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You know what?
/in
Hopefully in a fast game like this, my level of chatter per day won't be so out of place.
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One more! Signup, and I'll get PMs out tonight!
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Just in time to keep us all amused over Yuma's night/vacation!
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/hammer
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One more! Signup, and I'll get PMs out tonight!
Lies. I've received no PM.
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Thread Locked!
PMs are going out shortly. Please confirm once you get yours. The game will start sometime Monday, assuming everyone confirms.
If anyone would like to help moderate, I would appreciate your help.
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PMs sent. Please confirm!
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The game will start at 8 pm.
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The townspeople were in shock when they heard the news. A murder? In their lovely little village? Who would dare do such a wicked deed?
Scarcely believing the news, the townspeople rushed to the house of Twistedarcher, one by one. Jimmmm gasped when he saw the body, while EFHW broke down into tears.
"Who could do this?" Liopoil asked out loud. "Such an evil thing to do, to kill an innocent townsperson! It must have taken someone evil to do such a thing!"
Sudgy looked around the house, seeing if he could find any evidence. However, it was Nkirbit who called out first, noticing bloody fingerprints on the door.
After everyone inspected the fingerprints, UmbrageofSnow noticed something. "Hey, there's TWO sets of fingerprints here! That means...the murderer wasn't alone! There's two people out there!"
Everyone looked around at one another. Ashersky immediately blurted out, "It wasn't me! Don't look here!"
The door to the house was barred. The townspeople were determined not to leave until they figured out who was a simple Town Member , and who had been a member of the Mafia all along!
Thread unlocked!! Day 1 begins!
Vote Count 1.1
Not voting (7): Jimmmm, EFHW, Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
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First! Now to read the post...
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Why can't we inspect everybody's fingerprints and see which is the killer's? Do we all have un-takeoffable gloves or something?
Alright, Vote: UmbrageofSnow for having never played with him before.
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Ashersky immediately blurted out, "It wasn't me! Don't look here!"
Vote: Ashersky
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
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Hi guys!
Not much theory talking to do here, really. No plans to come up with. Just catch scum! Nice and simple!
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Okay, I have a plan!
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
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Days will still end when a majority vote happens, right?
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Okay, I have a plan!
Oh boy oh boy oh boy! Is this one of those plans you share?
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Days will still end when a majority vote happens, right?
Correct.
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crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
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I think three people should claim cop.
Here's why:
1. We have a cop, but he's unprotectable. Mafia wants to kill the Cop. They have a 1/5 chance of randomly catching him.
2. We have a doctor, but he can't protect the cop. Mafia kind of cares, but not really. The doctor can protect 3/6 other players, so a 50% chance of choosing someone protectable.
I think we want to WIFOM the heck out of mafia, who have a pretty sweet situation here. 2/7 is like starting off a regular game on D3. They're trying to get us to lylo or worse as quickly as we can.
3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know. That's the point. I don't want anyone to suggest if the real cop should claim among three or not. Did scum claim among the three? Maybe. Maybe not.
I think three players should claim to be the cop. Then we should proceed normally. Night actions should be taken according to the PRs' preferences. But the 3 cop claims will add necessary WIFOM to the mafia decision, which will help town.
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.
In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away. Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4. That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%. But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC? I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.
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wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
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crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
Wait, what counts as a unique vote?
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crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
Wait, what counts as a unique vote?
if two players have the same number of votes at the deadline, but one has two people who voted for them but later moved their vote, and the other only has one player who unvoted, then the one with two people gets lynched.
So this means that we shouldn't vote for people unless we want to lynch them.
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The doctor shouldn't claim unless he's about to be lynched. Scum could just kill the Doc right away, then goodbye him.
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wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
Good point on who we lynch today affecting my numbers.
The point is two-fold: 1) is intentional WIFOM to actually make it harder for scum to find the cop, and 2) is to force scum into making a decision early on, and on D1, when they can't discuss what to do. Does scum join the 3 cop claims, to reduce the numbers there?
Also, it creates discussion amongst us, and it is something to talk about which I think will help us scumhunt, something that's harder in blitz.
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3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know.
If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?
I don't see how this plan works at all. Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.
In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three? Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three? So many layers of decisions!
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The doctor shouldn't claim unless he's about to be lynched. Scum could just kill the Doc right away, then goodbye him.
My point is that if the Doctor claims early, it reduces the pool of possibly scum in exchange for probably dying N1.
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doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.
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Why make scum WIFOM when we could just not claim at all and make them have no idea whatsoever of who to kill?
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I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.
In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away. Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4. That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%. But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC? I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.
This is interesting. The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves? An IC might be better. And he's slightly better than an IC.
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I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
But can they? What if the real cop is amongst the three? We're also WIFOMingly reducing the number of mistargets for the Doc.
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.
In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away. Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4. That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%. But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC? I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.
This is interesting. The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves? An IC might be better. And he's slightly better than an IC.
But scum could fakeclaim...
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doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.
Oh, this is true. If the doctor is about to get lynched, claiming doctor is pretty good in that spot. Either there's no counterclaim, at which point we get our IC, or there is, and we either immediately catch scum or at worse trade the doctor for a scum, which is not a horrible trade (although not as good as it is in a normal game).
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7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
actually, the main utility of our doc is as a named townie I think. that is, the only way we can mislynch him is if scum fakeclaims.
I think a scum fakeclaim is stupid, since I'd trade the Doc for a scum lynch any day of the week.
In fact, as an alternative to my plan: the Doctor could claim right away. Scum would have to decide between killing the Doctor N1 or trying to hit the cop out of the other 4. That helps scum in that they have a 25% chance of hitting the cop, instead of 20%. But do they risk leaving the Doctor around as an IC? I mean, all other townies go from 2/6 scum search to a 2/5, which is pretty great.
This is interesting. The doctor has marginal utility at one save, and great utility at two saves, but is it realistic for him to get two saves? An IC might be better. And he's slightly better than an IC.
But scum could fakeclaim...
And the real doc counterclaims, we lynch one, then the other. The trade is worth it.
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doctor shouldn't claim. The doctor is functionally IC because he won't be lynched. by claiming we give scum a better chance of killing the cop.
Oh, this is true. If the doctor is about to get lynched, claiming doctor is pretty good in that spot. Either there's no counterclaim, at which point we get our IC, or there is, and we either immediately catch scum or at worse trade the doctor for a scum, which is not a horrible trade (although not as good as it is in a normal game).
The issue with this is, the game is blitz. If we waste the day getting the Doctor close to lynching, then the claim, then the backtrack...who do we lynch next?
And depending on unique votes, we could lynch the doctor anyway, without wanting to.
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Vote Count 1.2
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
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because of the blitz setting, we should:
-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.
it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.
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Vote Count 1.2
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
hmmm. I have a plan:
what if sudgy and I both vote for every single player except ourself, to balance the unique votes on ash and umbrage that shouldn't really be there?
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because of the blitz setting, we should:
-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.
it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.
I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim. We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.
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Vote Count 1.2
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
hmmm. I have a plan:
what if sudgy and I both vote for every single player except ourself, to balance the unique votes on ash and umbrage that shouldn't really be there?
With an unvote at the end? That removes both of your powers for unique vote manipulation. Towny suggestion, I think.
Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.
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because of the blitz setting, we should:
-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.
it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.
I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim. We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.
okay, that's fair. But in general - the doc should claim at a time that gives us enough time to find a decent alternative.
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because of the blitz setting, we should:
-get someone close to a lynch well before the deadline.
-have the doctor claim before there's an intent to hammer.
it only takes 4 to lynch, so I think claiming doctor/not doctor at L-1 is good, then only claiming cop/VT once it's clear that the lynch WILL go through otherwise.
I dislike having set procedures for how to claim when under pressure, since it makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim. We should try and use the timing of the claim to help us find out whether it's a true claim or not.
The utility of fake claims in this set-up are predicated on how useful it is for scum to give up a partner in exchange for a PR.
With a 2-man team, losing a partner is bad news bears. It's only worth it, maaaaybe, to get the Cop, not the Doctor. I'd be wary of Cop fake claims.
In either case, counterclaims will happen if they fake claim, and we've got one scum dead. I'm okay with that. I just think scum is much more likely to claim VT if NOT under duress, and will absolutely fake claim if we're about to lynch them to get info for their partner.
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Post Count!
1. Jimmmm - 0 (1)
2. EFHW - 0 (1)
3. Liopoil - 11 (1)
4. Sudgy - 7 (1)
5. Nkirbit - 6 (1)
6. UmbrageofSnow - 0 (3)
7. Ashersky - 11 (2)
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In parentheses are pre-game posts.
Jimmmm/EFHW/UoS are all hardcore lurking. No posts yet.
Lio is posting more than his usual self, but townread so far on what he's said.
sudgy/nkirbit look fine so far activity and content-wise.
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Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.
Why not UoS? These aren't serious reads (I hope), but what was your reasoning for leaving him out?
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
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Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.
Why not UoS? These aren't serious reads (I hope), but what was your reasoning for leaving him out?
Missed his existence. He's in there now.
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
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Vote Count 1.2
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (1, u1): Liopoil
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 8 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
Also, we are 1 hour past deadline already...who got lynched?
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Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
well, he's offline right now... unless he's hidden.
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Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?
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Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?
No. I think it is still worthwhile. I mean, as others may have pointed out, at the very worst, it does absolutely nothing.
3 players claiming cop early messed with scum heads more than town reads.
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
My highest scumread at the moment is ash, for proposing a random plan (I've heard he does this in town games though too), saying his major scumreads are all the people who haven't posted a single bit, and for randomly giving me scum points.
Have you given up on your three cop plan, Ash?
No. I think it is still worthwhile. I mean, as others may have pointed out, at the very worst, it does absolutely nothing.
3 players claiming cop early messed with scum heads more than town reads.
What is this referencing?
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messed should be messes
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
My highest scumread at the moment is ash, for proposing a random plan (I've heard he does this in town games though too), saying his major scumreads are all the people who haven't posted a single bit, and for randomly giving me scum points.
Sudgy, we have very little to go on, so I'm laying out reads based on what there is. Lurking in blitz is bad. So that's that.
As for your scum points, it has nothing to do with not being online and everything to do with not responding to liopoil's plan.
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them. I don't think it's that important.
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them. I don't think it's that important.
I guess that works too.
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Well, blitz deadlines are very, very hectic. See the last blitz game, where we only got to our choice in the last 5 minutes or so.
If you're going to vote everyone, do it now, or just don't do it. Pushing it off is bad.. you'll have so much more to talk about at that point.
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If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them. I don't think it's that important.
But you can't. Unique votes don't go away, or change.
Here's why you ignoring this benefits scum.
Assume I get run up to 3 votes, 4 unique. I claim Doctor. No counterclaim. Unvotes get me down to 1 vote. I still lead the unique vote count.
Unless we get a majority lynch candidate, it only takes keeping me tied with the leading wagon to make sure I'm lynched. Scum can manipulate that by just not voting, or not believing me. It's close to deadline, we've got another player to 2 votes, but no one's willing to pull the trigger. One scum vote on me makes me the lynch again.
Unique votes are able to be manipulated.
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it probably won't end up mattering though. And if it does, I promise to fix it. but if it doesn't end up mattering, then by not doing it now I keep some of my power as counting as a unique vote.
ash, in your situation, I just vote for the other leading wagon...
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If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them. I don't think it's that important.
But you can't. Unique votes don't go away, or change.
Here's why you ignoring this benefits scum.
Assume I get run up to 3 votes, 4 unique. I claim Doctor. No counterclaim. Unvotes get me down to 1 vote. I still lead the unique vote count.
Unless we get a majority lynch candidate, it only takes keeping me tied with the leading wagon to make sure I'm lynched. Scum can manipulate that by just not voting, or not believing me. It's close to deadline, we've got another player to 2 votes, but no one's willing to pull the trigger. One scum vote on me makes me the lynch again.
Unique votes are able to be manipulated.
Wait, unique votes stick after people unvote? I was thinking it was something to do with the people who were voting for the person at the time. Could someone explain exactly what a "unique" vote is, since it seems we're thinking something different...
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the number of unique votes a person has on them is the number of different people who have voted for that player at any point that day.
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During each day, the number of "unique" votes a player gets are calculated. Say Player A receives votes from Player B, Player C, and Player D. Player B and Player C eventually unvote player A. Player A would have 1 actual vote, but 3 unique votes. Unique votes, once they are made, stay there until the end of the day.
Unique votes are only used for breaking ties at the end of the day.
Let me know if this still isn't clear.
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Votes are still what's most important, like in a normal game. But each player also has a unique vote count, which asks "How many different players have voted for me in this game?".
If the day ends without a majority lynch, the player with the most votes in lynched. If two players are tied with the most votes, the player with the most unique votes (between those two players who are tied) get lynched.
Say Sudgy, Ashersky, and Liopoil all vote me. They later all unvote me, then Jimm, EFHW, and Ash come in and vote for me. I would be at 3 votes, 5 unique votes.
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Alright, that makes sense, thanks. Now that I know that, I still think it won't make too much of a difference if I do something now or later. If I have too, it will take me half a minute to vote for someone else.
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You both could at least unvote your RVS votes.
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Hey, 2 hours past the start, sorry I was
hardcore lurking not around.
Scumread on Ash for forgetting my existence. Up until then I thought his plan was pretty cool.
Seriously though, I like the idea of introducing random elements to mafia, particularly when it comes to optimal strategies for second guessing Mafia. I was kind of getting sucked into an unrelated argument about this earlier today, but the fact is that a lot of times the game theory optimum play in games with mutual decision making (like night kills and doctor protections and cop investigations) is to have some amount of randomness in your decisions.
Mafia know who town are, so they're looking for the 2 power roles out of 7. We are looking for the 2 scum out of 9. Doc is looking for the 5 non-mafia, non-cops out of the 8 that aren't himself.
I like the chaos this would cause, and I suspect it would be pro-town. I like that plan. I like plans in general.
Don't have any serious reads yet. Time for a reread!
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I think three people should claim cop.
I'd be up for trying this plan out. I had a similar idea in another game (Innovation?) and didn't get to try it. We've been playing with the "don't say anything" strategy for awhile now on f.ds. I'd like to try something different like this.
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Yeah, why are the RVS votes still up? With the tendency for people to log off and then not check in, and the short deadline, leaving stuff like that up seems like a small but unnecessary risk.
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And they've been asked twice to unvote. Weird.
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Hi all! So blitz. Both my favourite and least favourite way to play Mafia.
Okay, so I should definitely let you know my RL schedule for the next few days. Tomorrow, Wednesday my time, 3pm - 11pm I am working. Same for Thursday. Then Friday 1pm - 6pm followed by youth group and then Saturday 7am - 3pm. If you subtract 14 hours from those times, you get forum time, so Wednesday 3pm - 11pm becomes Wednesday 1am - 9am. I should be able to check in a few times while at work, and also in the morning and late at night my time.
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I'm not sure about ash's plan. I mean, it's entirely possible that both scum will claim Cop, and if the third is the actual Cop then they know who to kill. On the other hand, the Cop might not even be one of the three, either because they didn't claim in time, or they chose not to. Either way, I don't think it gives terribly much information to either team, so in the end I'm not particularly against it.
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My schedule is basically pure chaos. I could either post my best attempt at generalities now, or my best attempt at specifics each day. I'm open to either way of explaining it.
Regardless, I should be on until about 1 A.M. or so tonight (could push it a bit) then offline until maybe 10 A.M. tomorrow morning, where I'll be able to read enough to catch up, and make a few posts while doing other things until about noon, when I'll be offline from noon (or maybe 12:30 if I'm lucky) until evening. I may be able to check in a bit around 2 P.M., but I cant promise, I'll be on again around 8. Probably I'll either be able to check in in the afternoon or be on earlier near the deadline, but not both. I'm going to aim for being around before the deadline by as much time as I can manage, but that is not likely to be prime chatting time for me. I can read cases and change my vote, but I'll be able to put in the most serious time tonight and in the mid-morning tomorrow.
Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
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Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
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Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
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So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts. Where's the line on that? Is there a good rule of thumb?
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so sudgy would be my second scumread.
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So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts. Where's the line on that? Is there a good rule of thumb?
Ash pushed the envelope in talking about liopoil's activity in an ongoing game. Really he shouldn't have said that because any opinions about players in a game need to stay in that game only. You are safest to just not refer to ongoing games at all. There are lots of finished games you can refer to as much as you want.
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Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
After 8 is better for me, too.
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Yes but no finished games that I am in.
But advice taken, I'll be silent on issues of that other game.
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If a later deadline is better for the majority of players, I would change it. How would 10pm work as opposed to 8pm?
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I would prefer a 10pm deadline as well.
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10 pm is good.
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10 P.M. is much better for me, thank you.
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With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to change a deadline.
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Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
7 people is not very many. to win, we MUST lynch both scum before mislynching twice, unless our doc stops the kill TWICE. but we've got some PRs to help us!
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
our doc isn't too powerful. If he manages to block the kill once, all we get is an extra night of investigations after no lynch. If he blocks it twice we get an extra mislynch, which is awesome, but unlikely. Plus he can only save VTs, not the cop.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
I get what you're saying with the voting thing, even though I disagree. Players know that leaving these votes on is scummy, and we can say "scum would be more careful". But scum know we would say this, so they can leave it on.. but maybe they would know we would do this. At best, it's a bunch of WIFOM for me.
As for the cop thing, that's really a stretch for me. It agree that the cop isn't super great, since he can't be doctored, and Lio is exaggerating, but why is that scummy at all?
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Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
Jimmmmm, you are backwards. 8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.
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As for the cop thing, that's really a stretch for me. It agree that the cop isn't super great, since he can't be doctored, and Lio is exaggerating, but why is that scummy at all?
Exaggerating to me is an indication of the writer possibly trying to seem other than what they are. Here, it seems to me he may be trying to seem town-aligned by acting excited about something a town player would like, but going too far.
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So, I know we aren't allowed to talk about ongoing games, but at the same time, meta arguments are very popular round these parts. Where's the line on that? Is there a good rule of thumb?
Ash pushed the envelope in talking about liopoil's activity in an ongoing game. Really he shouldn't have said that because any opinions about players in a game need to stay in that game only. You are safest to just not refer to ongoing games at all. There are lots of finished games you can refer to as much as you want.
I mean, I guess maybe I pushed an envelope? But really, I didn't say much of anything.
I believe the rule of thumb would be don't mention ongoing games. But then, it's like "if you wanted to read about how scum X seems, you could read..." because someone died as scum in a game, you wouldn't break any rules.
Use your best judgement. Generally, don't talk about ongoing stuff.
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So, it seems a majority of players are okay with or at least see no harm in a 3-cop claim. Anyone want to start?
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I claim cop!
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Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
Jimmmmm, you are backwards. 8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.
Right. Cool. That's heaps better. In which case 10pm is even better.
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Can I just say that 8 P.M. is an awkwardly early time for deadlines for me. A lot of times that's when I'll just be getting on, or later like tonight. I will go somewhat out of my way for this game, however. But I'd rather later (10 P.M., midnight) deadlines in general.
Hmm yes that's 6am for me, and given I'm working late, I'm not going to want to drag myself out of bed at 5 or 5:30. But I'll see.
Jimmmmm, you are backwards. 8 p.m. is 10 a.m. for us.
Right. Cool. That's heaps better. In which case 10pm is even better.
I'm good with either.
I will note that, as of the last vote count, the deadline was today at 8:00 p.m., or 3 hours ago.
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Deadline moved from 8pm to 10pm.
I will try to make the deadlines fall in this time, which probably means we won't be sticking exactly to 24-hour days.
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Deadline moved from 8pm to 10pm.
I will try to make the deadlines fall in this time, which probably means we won't be sticking exactly to 24-hour days.
Oh wait, I'm confused because it is Tuesday here.
Nevermind. So it's 10 p.m. on Tuesday forum time.
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
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So this game of mafia takes place on a planet where the days are a bit longer than 24 hours. Just write a bit of SF into the flavor!
(Or time could be dictated by an evil government who like to keep us off balance by adjusting the clocks all the time.)
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?
Vote: Ashersky
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
Isn't it WIFOM like the rest?
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
Yeah, but for all we know he is scum, or the cop, or a vanilla townie or whatever. I'm not sure his taking that choice is much worse for town than just not jumping on and deciding.
By the way, I claim cop!
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Yay, we get to be super-awesome!
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?
Vote: Ashersky
Where did you get that twisted idea? My plan is to get three people to claim cop, and then continue the game normally.
Your reaction is very, very odd.
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
Isn't it WIFOM like the rest?
Maybe. But it's very clearly a deviation from the plan, which throws off the plan's efficacy. That's the issue with it.
If nkirbit's the Cop, that's just an odd thing to say. If he didn't want to claim, he waits for three others. Plus, the typo is weird.
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Yay, we get to be super-awesome!
I'll grow a powerful moustache!
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I claim cop!
I am no cop.
Claiming not cop is very bad for this plan. Also, it is VERY bad for town, as it narrows down scum's options. This is a voteable offense.
So your plan was to get three people to get cop, then throw suspicion on the other four?
Vote: Ashersky
Where did you get that twisted idea? My plan is to get three people to claim cop, and then continue the game normally.
Your reaction is very, very odd.
Right. I'm saying I'm not a cop. Three people are saying they are cops. Obviously, there are multiple people lying on one side.. why are you assuming that everyone other the other side must be telling the truth? You said yourself that the people claiming not cop could in fact be cops
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But Ash, maybe "that's an odd thing to say" is exactly the reasoning he's going for? You don't know. Which is good, because none of us know, so scum doesn't know.
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But Ash, maybe "that's an odd thing to say" is exactly the reasoning he's going for? You don't know. Which is good, because none of us know, so scum doesn't know.
But just not claiming is the same. If we have everyone say cop/not cop, that would suck.
What's odd to me is the way he's twisted my plan into something nefarious. That's a scum move.
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Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game. But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
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We should all really be carefully throwing around our votes here.
Especially with the unique votes thing. And especially with Ash and I already having votes on us.
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I guess there's a difference between saying "I claim not Cop" and "I don't claim Cop". If nkirbit is treating these two as the same, then we don't really have a problem, and his non-claim can't be any more or less trusted or suspicious than the claims of EFHW and Snow.
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How is not claiming any different from saying "not cop". It's just me saying that I'm not going to claim cop. None of these claims have a shred of credence, anyway.
It wasn't clear to me you had such a difference between saying nothing and saying that you weren't going to claim cop. I certainly don't see the difference between the two. I just was acknowledging that EFHW claimed cop and stated that I wasn't going to claim. If you want to take my claim and remake it into "I'm not going to claim cop", feel free to. I think they're the same thing.
You're the one who found a player scummy because they didn't follow your plan exactly the way you envisioned it first. I'm calling you out because I think it's easy to do that. You had a plan for how things were going to go, and the first person who deviated from that you immediately called out as scummy. I don't think the plan was especially clear, as I obviously got confused with it. I can see scum setting this up as a trap, and letting their partner know in the QT so that they don't fall into it.
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Also, I suggest we come to a consensus by deadline and not have to worry about the unique votes thing.
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Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game. But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
I don't think it's dangerous. If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic. L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
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Also, I suggest we come to a consensus by deadline and not have to worry about the unique votes thing.
I agree, I would prefer this, but I don't think we can just guarantee we don't have to worry about it.
I think we should lynch only scum and not make any dumb mistakes!
We should try our best for these type of goals, but I think they're worth worrying about, because there is a lot of potential for us to screw up. Especially with these deadlines.
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ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?
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That's rolefishing on the one hand, and unhelpful on the other.
If this is Ash's nefarious scum-plan, he'll lie. If he is cop, he should lie, if he is VT or came up with it beforehand maybe he'll tell the truth, but none of us would trust it anyway.
Why ask this, Jimmmm?
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Between the rolefishing and the "let's not worry about this thing that could potentially cause a lynch we don't want after a claim", FoS: Jimmmmm.
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That's rolefishing on the one hand, and unhelpful on the other.
If this is Ash's nefarious scum-plan, he'll lie. If he is cop, he should lie, if he is VT or came up with it beforehand maybe he'll tell the truth, but none of us would trust it anyway.
Why ask this, Jimmmm?
Just wondering what if anything we can deduce about his alignment based on his suggesting this plan. My suspicion is nothing, but I don't think him replying one way or another will give scum any extra information.
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ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?
After.
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ashersky, did you come up with your plan before or after you received your role PM?
After.
Well, sort of. In my confirmation reply to TA, I said "you're gonna love my plan!"
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Oh crap, I fully intended to confirm that I was a man with three buttocks in my confirmation reply and forgot.
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Honestly, I looked at Doctor + Macho Cop, then thought about how it was designed to foil Follow the Cop, then thought about how we could still use those two roles to beat scum.
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Seriously though, I don't think scumAsh or TownAsh would really come up with plans any differently, just with different goals in mind.
But Officer EFHW and I both thought it was a good or at least fun idea and harmless, so no matter what you can feel safe knowing we have at least one town in favor of this plan.
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Between the rolefishing and the "let's not worry about this thing that could potentially cause a lynch we don't want after a claim", FoS: Jimmmmm.
Okay.
First of all, the unique votes thing. This is what I'm afraid will happen if we worry to much about it. No one will vote until very shortly before deadline, at which point whoever's schedules allow them to be online at that particular time will get full control of the vote. This is contrary to normal voting procedure, in which votes are built up over the course of the Day, giving time for reactions to votes etc. Wagons are a powerful thing, and if we try to limit them we're costing ourselves information. Having said that, I totally agree with not taking anyone to L-2 prematurely.
Secondly, admittedly my question referred to "role PM", but his actual specific role in terms of PR or VT if he's Town was the furthest thing from my mind. I suspect that he came up with it before he knew if he was Town or scum, in which case we can't tell anything from it about whether he is Town or scum. But if he wants to argue that he would only have thought of it as Town, or that he would never suggest it as scum, then that could potentially give us clues to his alignment, which is certainly all I'm after.
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But Officer EFHW and I both thought it was a good or at least fun idea and harmless, so no matter what you can feel safe knowing we have at least one town in favor of this plan.
Meh, I think the plan's pretty harmless as long as no one gets stupid about it. What's in question is ash's alignment, not the goodness of the plan.
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Vote Count 1.3
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Sudgy
Ashersky (2, u2): Liopoil, Nkirbit
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd.
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Okay, so now that you know you were only kind of right, does that make him more or less suspicious to you? Does the fact that he was honest make you more or less suspicious?
See, I don't think I can figure anything out about Ash from that bit of info, one way or another, anything that can be read into it seems just too specious to be useful to me.
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And also kind of wrong, actually! He had the thought right with the confirmation, but he did know what he was. Assuming we trust him. Just not clear what you were hoping to get here. But seems like it could be a way to differentiate him from other townies if he were town and you were scum, that's all I'm worrying about here.
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I'm not really sure what I was expecting. It was kind of reminding me of his plan in Masons and Monks, although much less controversial, in that he came straight into the game with a plan. I can't remember if he said he came up with it before or after he knew he was Town in that game, but he was Town. I was leaning slight Town on him (I still am), and had to remind myself that he probably came up with the plan before he knew if he was Town or scum. I just wanted to see what he would say to help my own thought processes and try to determine whether the intent of the plan is to help Town or to seem like it's helping Town.
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I'm not really sure what I was expecting. It was kind of reminding me of his plan in Masons and Monks, although much less controversial, in that he came straight into the game with a plan. I can't remember if he said he came up with it before or after he knew he was Town in that game, but he was Town. I was leaning slight Town on him (I still am), and had to remind myself that he probably came up with the plan before he knew if he was Town or scum. I just wanted to see what he would say to help my own thought processes and try to determine whether the intent of the plan is to help Town or to seem like it's helping Town.
In Masons and Monks, I definitely had my plan way before PMs. But there was a long lead time into that game.
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First, I realized, lio and I should NOT vote for others. That's just giving more unique votes. We shouldn't have RVSed, but it's too late now. I'll Unvote now, but it won't change that now...
Also, I claim cop. I am the real cop, don't listen to them!
Now, I would vote ash, but I don't want to give unique votes
Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm. Vote: ashersky. Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.
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Wow, really? L-1 already? Anyone want to unvote?
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Holy crap, I forgot that was L-1. Unvote, but consider me voting for you.
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I'll have substantially less access starting in an hour or so, but available for the final 4 hours of the day.
I think this is a record for fastest L-1, ever.
I am the Doctor. Now unvote, before scum hammers.
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I'll have substantially less access starting in an hour or so, but available for the final 4 hours of the day.
I think this is a record for fastest L-1, ever.
I am the Doctor. Now unvote, before scum hammers.
Sorry! Any counterclaims?
Also, it makes sense for a quick L-1, as this is Blitz...
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Also, it makes sense for a quick L-1, as this is Blitz...
I mean, I guess so, but there just hasn't been much to go on. For now, I'm going to vote: nkirbit as I think his reaction was the worst (scummiest) to my plan.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.
I was at L-1, man. The freaking RVS vote is still there.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.
I was at L-1, man. The freaking RVS vote is still there.
I know. I mostly blame sudgy for that one.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
Well, it depends if you consider nkirbit's "no cop" claim to mean he's not the cop or he's not claiming he's the cop, but yes.
I was at L-1, man. The freaking RVS vote is still there.
I know. I mostly blame sudgy for that one.
Having said that, your claim did come after he had unvoted. Check your PPEs people!
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Having said that, your claim did come after he had unvoted. Check your PPEs people!
11 seconds. With important stuff, I sometimes rush it.
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Unvote
man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.
first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
third, a little frustrated at Jimmmmm for putting ash at L-2 when there was a vote on him that shouldn't be there
fourth, frustrated at people for thinking ash is scum. I don't get it at all.
the above resulted in outing our doctor. I will be very surprised if there are counterclaims.
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.
why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.
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already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.
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ahh, I now see that it was nkirbit, not Jimmmm, who was the second on the ash wagon. whoops.
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Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
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Vote Count 1.4
ashersky (1, u3): nkirbit
nkirbit (1, u1): ashersky
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, UmbrageOfSnow (u1), liopoil, sudgy
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
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Holy crap, you guy put Ash at L-1 while I was asleep? Eek.
I believe his Doc claim 100%. I think his disagreement with what he thought the plan was and what some of us thought the plan was comes from him wanting to help doc and us focusing more on confusing scum. I kind of picked up on that earlier but didn't want to say anything.
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Okay, so almost nothing's happened since I was out. I also believe ash's Doc claim and will continue to do so until someone contests it. liopoil's frustration seems genuine. No one else has really jumped out at me. Off to do some re-reads.
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people who have posted but haven't counterclaimed:
liopoil, Umbrage, Jimmm, Sudgy
so we're waiting on nkirbit and EFHW.
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This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.
Unvote
man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.
first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.
why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.
But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done. Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me. It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.
crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out. BUT HE NEVER DOES IT. Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing. That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time. That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.
Vote: Liopoil
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First, I realized, lio and I should NOT vote for others. That's just giving more unique votes. We shouldn't have RVSed, but it's too late now. I'll Unvote now, but it won't change that now...
So you realize the problems with the RVS votes but despite Liopoil's plan (that he failed to actually follow through on, just threw out there for towncred and ignored) you don't want to fix it and are treating it like something that is impossible to change? I'm not saying the plan is the best in the world, or even that you should necessarily do it, but treating it so fatalistically when it's a fixable problem (albeit with the downside of reducing your ability to manipulate unique votes later) is a bit weird.
Now, I would vote ash, but I don't want to give unique votes
Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm. Vote: ashersky. Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.
Maybe you didn't say what you meant, but the first half of your sentence is saying that either Ash made his plan before the game to be towny or to seem towny therefore he's scummy. That is ridiculous. You can't win that, but that logic seems to be depressingly common. "Either he wants to help town, or he wants to look like he's trying to help town, he must be scum" is just a terrible form of argument. You haven't pointed out anything scummy about the plan, but Ash is scummy for having a plan, because it makes him look like how he plays as town. :o
The FoS at people who hadn't posted was silly, but I didn't take it as particularly serious, (I joked back at him after I stopped "lurking" and opened up my computer). I could see thinking it was a bit scummy, but it's hardly a reason to vote, especially in this game, where you have just explained that you understand that UNIQUE VOTES ARE A PROBLEM.
And since your first point is nonsense and seems to be misunderstanding Jimmmmm, (in which case you should be finding Jimmmm ridiculous, not agreeing with him) you are basically putting Ash at L-1, giving him another unique vote which you understand to be bad, for (more or less) RVS-FoSing me, EFHW, and Jimmmmm? That is nuts.
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Unless more things come to light, I'd like to lynch one of Liopoil and Sudgy today.
I absolutely will not vote Ashersky.
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crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out. BUT HE NEVER DOES IT. Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing. That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time. That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.
Vote: Liopoil
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.
I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)
it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
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This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.
Unvote
man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.
first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.
why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.
But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done. Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me. It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.
what the... why do people keep accusing my of hyperbole, and why is it scummy? and I'm not being hyperbolic! you said: "why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is"" I said: "I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.". Now who's being hyperbolic, hmm?
In regard to you saying I changed my mind about the plan, I didn't. the quote you highlighted: I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
I am objecting to the plan in this very post! I am saying that it cannot help town because the claims are meaningless and scum will ignore them. I also dissagree with the plan here: wait, I don't get it... how does this lower the chances of mafia killing the cop? won't they still have a 1/5 chance? (actually, that's only if we lynch scum today, it's a 1/4 chance if we don't). I mean, the claims won't mean anything...
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what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.
I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)
it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
Regarding your last comment, note that Sudgy is my other top scumread. I agree with you!
UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL. And there is a HUGE point in unvoting. We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie. I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not. I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting". The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in. You can always put it back, you know.
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Hmm, you're making some sense. Having now re-read liopoil, my biggest problem is that he's been posting a reasonable amount without actually offering any opinions. I mentioned that his frustration seemed genuine, and in isolation it did. But having read his whole game now, that sort of thing, that is, theory talk, talking about plans, talking about what's good and bad for Town, is all he's really said.
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Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us. And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is. That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.
Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote). I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much. To a degree that I think may be artificial.
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what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz. oh well, I'll learn from it and not make the same mistake again.
I never did it. why? because it makes my vote less powerful, because I don't count as a unique vote anymore. and sudgy wasn't going to do it either. And if we got to a point where my unique vote on ash mattered, I would put my unique vote on the other wagon too (and still will if that happens)
it seems the point you are making in this section is that I made a "mistake" that might have been intentional. the same can be said for sudgy with his putting ash at L-1.
UNVOTING DOES NOT MAKE YOUR VOTE LESS POWERFUL. And there is a HUGE point in unvoting. We don't lynch off unique votes unless there is a tie. I get that your plan made your vote less powerful, but unvoting would have been an excellent middle ground between following through and not. I really don't understand "What's the point in unvoting". The point is to not have a vote on Ash that you don't believe in. You can always put it back, you know.
of course it doesn't make my vote less powerful, what are you talking about?? I already said that I should have unvoted before I left. I should have. I don't get why this is scummy.
and stop saying that I didn't "follow through". I never committed to doing it, I put it forward as a possible idea. And it turned out to be a bad idea.
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Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us. And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is. That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.
Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote). I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much. To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. I assumed we weren't going to do the plan, because at the time, ash was the only one in support of it! And I NEVER said it was unharmful.
"I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect"
that's being hyperbolic: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hyperbole
I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!
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I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much. To a degree that I think may be artificial.
I'm panicking? why would I panic as scum, the doc just claimed and people are giving me clues as to who the cop is!
Your doom and gloom about how much scum know and how bad we screwed up seems artificial, like scum would want to look more worried when they were not actually worried at all.
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Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.
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Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us. And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is. That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.
Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote). I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much. To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.
You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either. Just that you didn't see how it could help. Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
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oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.
scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
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Liopoil, those objections are so weak, they didn't even look like objections to the rest of us. And now you're talking about how bad town is and how scum probably have a good idea of who the cop is. That is a HUGE shift from seeming like you don't care and you think it's pointless but unharmful, which is how your quotes from yesterday read.
Also, I wasn't being hyperbolic, I was exaggerating for effect in my fake quotes of you (that came after the real quote). I'm saying that I think you're panicking way way too much. To a degree that I think may be artificial.
that's just not true. ... And I NEVER said it was unharmful.
You NEVER SAID IT WAS HARMFUL either. Just that you didn't see how it could help. Not seeing how it can help is a much much weaker objection than "scum knows who the cop is now".
I didn't say scum knows who the cop is either! and again, at the time, it seemed that there was no risk of anyone going through with the plan. No need to object when it doesn't appear to be a problem.
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Liopoil, knowing that something is bad for town, but doing it anyway (logging off without unvoting) is the prime reason I think you're scummy.
Liopoil has said that not unvoting was bad and he was upset at himself, but unvoting is so simple to do, and has major potential benefits if he is scum and he doesn't.
The fact that Liopoil said
what's the point in unvoting, the unique vote is already there. Sure, I should've have removed my vote before I left. I didn't think a wagon would build on him overnight, but I guess that's blitz.
Is a really weird defense to a think he already said was a mistake, and say again in the very next sentence. Like he wants to justify not unvoting as being reasonable even though he knows it was a dumb move. It reads to me like it was a smart move, and he didn't expect to get this much crap for it. I think a town player would not be deviating from the self-flaggelation "I screwed up" feelings. I think a scum player would be more indignant that it wasn't a big deal, because a scum player would be proud of himself to a certain extent.
And the fact is, not unvoting because you didn't think it would matter is terrible logic. I don't think it would matter if I vote for EFHW, but as I have no reason to think EFHW is scum, I sure as hell am not going to do so, even if I can unvote later. ESPECIALLY with blitz deadlines.
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well, I didn't think of it. I didn't leave without unvoting on purpose. sorry.
when I said "what's the point in unvoting" I am saying it within the context of unique votes, as should have been obvious my the next phrase, which isn't underlined and bolded for some reason, "the unique vote is already there".
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that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
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Post Count (does not include pregame):
Ashersky: 39
Liopoil: 30
UoS: 28
Jimmmmm: 17
Nkirbit: 17
Sudgy: 14
EFHW: 11
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Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).
But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).
I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative. I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.
And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch. Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.
I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
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that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
I've been thinking the same thing. To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?
Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:
1. If we don't vote everybody else:
A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him. Nothing bad happens.
B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him. He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count. Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him. This is bad.
C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier. Nothing bad happens.
So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.
Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
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Well that accusation unfortunately comes at a time when I'm about to sign off for several hours (see my schedule post yesterday).
But no, I don't think I'm trying too hard, I think there is one big bright-flashing-letters reason why you're scummy, and that there are several extra things that are like pools of scummy gravy (yum).
I don't think you're scummy because you said you don't see the point of unvoting, I think you're scummy because of not unvoting and the saying you don't see the point fits better with a scum-narrative than a town-narrative. I wouldn't ever vote someone just on that statement.
And for the record, I don't see how that can mean only in the context of unique votes, because you can't unvote a unique vote, but you sure as hell can unvote your ACTUAL VOTE that could have caused a mislynch. Not unvoting is just as pointless as unvoting in context of unique votes: neither matters at all.
I don't like the phrasing though, but as I said, it's not my main thing.
that's exactly the point. in the context of unique votes, there is no point to unvoting, hence "what's the point in unvoting". I am not saying that I was correct not to unvote at all. I should have unvoted.
that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
I've been thinking the same thing. To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?
Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:
--snip!--
So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.
Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
- umbrage does not have any completed games
- indeed, this is why we didn't do it
- I'm not TA, but I think it results in a no lynch.
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I don't think UoS is tunneling. I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up.
I'm not ready to vote liopoil. I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon.
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scummy: UoS, EFHW (EFHW for lurking and silly reason for being suspicious of me. Also was first to "claim" cop, which encouraged others to do so as well.)
null: Jimmmmm, Nkirbit
towny: Liopoil, Ashersky, Sudgy
reasoning behind townread on sudgy: if he's scum, he's more aware about how he uses his vote. He wouldn't unvote promptly after realizing ash was at L-1, because if he was scum he would have already realized that and either wouldn't have placed the vote, or wouldn't unvote. (remember he unvoted 11 seconds BEFORE the claim). Also, he declined my plan, something that if he's scum he knows looks suspicious. plus my gut says he's town too :)
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Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
No lynch.
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I don't think UoS is tunneling. I think he is trying to make his points clear, as he and liopoil had several misunderstandings during that conversation which now seem cleared up.
I'm not ready to vote liopoil. I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon.
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?
Vote: EFHW
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Vote Count 1.5
ashersky (1, u3): nkirbit
nkirbit (1, u1): ashersky
Liopoil (1, u1): UmbrageofSnow
EFHW (1, u1): Liopoil
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (3): Jimmmm, EFHW, sudgy
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
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guys, as of now, ashersky is still getting lynched...
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Nkirbit, I will vote for you if you don't unvote soon.
Also, lio, how many times have both of us been suspected on D1? Three times now? I can't remember...
EFHW, why do you say not going for the plan was bad when I showed that it wasn't a good idea?
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FoS: Nkirbit.
He's hidden, but he's online. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=summary;u=2143
he was last active 5 minutes ago.
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Yes, I just got online.
Unvote
My account was set to be always offline. Why isn't it set that why now? How do I change that?
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Nkirbit, I will vote for you if you don't unvote soon.
Also, lio, how many times have both of us been suspected on D1? Three times now? I can't remember...
EFHW, why do you say not going for the plan was bad when I showed that it wasn't a good idea?
This is bad. Threatening to vote people because they're offline is an easy excuse. I didn't unvote because I wasn't here.
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Yes, I just got online.
Unvote
My account was set to be always offline. Why isn't it set that why now? How do I change that?
it is set that way. you appear offline. but if I go to your profile, I can see the last time you were active. at about 1:58 it said you were last active at 1:55, then later when I checked again at 2:05 it said you were last active at 2:00.
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Lio is posting more than his usual self
don't really think this is true... I'm usually on the upper-half of post counts. I was the highest town-aligned poster in mean girls, I think I was the most active while I was alive in bankers+S&N, and didn't exactly lurk through my other 3 completed games either.
Really? I guess I was thinking about an ongoing game or something. Still, you are in the town half of my reads anyway, and your unique vote thing was towny to suggest.
Sudgy is gaining scum points for not chiming in/agreeing.
Yay, when I'm not on I get more scum points! My plan is working perfectly!
but are you on board for my plan?
If it gets close to the deadline, we could change our votes to change the uniqueness of them. I don't think it's that important.
Here is where you said you didn't want to do it. It is before liopoil said he thought it was a bad idea.
And I completely disagree with both of you about "if it's close, I'll fix it then". What if the other person is at L-1? Then you can't balance it without lynching. Sudgy's argument finds only one scenario in which balancing would be problematic - if we get close to mislynching someone, it will be easier to avoid if they have fewer unique votes than Ash or UoS. Having unique votes unbalanced b/c of RVS is not a good precaution against mislynching, especially since it does make it more likely that Ash or UoS would be lynched, maybe mislynched.
I have more to say, but no time right now. Back later.
Re: Uos tunneling,that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
I've been thinking the same thing. To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?
Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:
1. If we don't vote everybody else:
A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him. Nothing bad happens.
B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him. He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count. Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him. This is bad.
C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier. Nothing bad happens.
So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.
Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
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Re: Uos tunneling,that latest post really makes me start to think that umbrage is starting to be trying too hard to find reasons to suspect me, that is, he's pushing a mislynch.
I've been thinking the same thing. To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?
Also, Umbrage, I thought it out, and figured out that voting everybody else now has NEGATIVE impact:
1. If we don't vote everybody else:
A. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we lynch him. Nothing bad happens.
B. We get someone other than Umbrage or Ash in a wagon (but me and lio aren't voting for it), then we don't want to lynch him. He has less unique votes now, so it was a good thing we didn't vote them.
C. We get Umbrage or Ash in a wagon, we don't want to lynch them anymore, then we vote for others to increase their unique vote count. Nothing bad happens.
2. If we do vote everybody else:
A. Same situation, nothing bad happens.
B. Same situation, but now he has more unique votes, then we accidentally lynch him. This is bad.
C. Same situation, but we already fixed it earlier. Nothing bad happens.
So you see, we do NOT want to vote everybody else, there is a possiblity of something bad happening.
Also, random question for TA: If two people are tied for most votes and unique votes, what happens?
I don't get this... Could you explain what point you were trying to make with this?
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Ok, I have a couple minutes. The end of my last post is about sudgy's comment re: tunneling. He says "I've been thinking the same thing. To others that have played with him, does he usually tunnel this hard?" Obviously I don't know if sudgy was really thinking that, but to my ear it sounds like fanning flames.
liopoil coming down so hard and even voting me (when I didn't vote him OR sudgy) makes me think I am on the right track.
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Yes, I just got online.
Unvote
My account was set to be always offline. Why isn't it set that why now? How do I change that?
it is set that way. you appear offline. but if I go to your profile, I can see the last time you were active. at about 1:58 it said you were last active at 1:55, then later when I checked again at 2:05 it said you were last active at 2:00.
I know that information is available, but I really don't like making cases based on it.
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Well, I was clearly wrong about Ash trying to build his case as scum to catch people. My bad. I still find it weird how my claim of not being a cop is sandwiched in between two claims of people being cop, and mine was taken seriously while the other two weren't. You shouldn't have taken it seriously. I may or may not be a cop.
I disagree with Snow's reasons on Lio. He should have unvoted, but I would guess that it was more carelessness than intent to actually cause something on Ash. My main suspicion from this goes to Sudgy. Putting someone to L-1 can cause claims, and did here. Sure, Ash was quick to claim, but I think it's Sudgy fault for putting him in a position to do so.
I'm also unhappy with his threat to vote me unless I unvoted soon. I hadn't been online since Ash claimed. I can't unvote if I'm not online. Why are you trying to make me seem suspicious for not doing something that I was unable to do?
Vote: Sudgy
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I disagree with Snow's reasons on Lio. He should have unvoted, but I would guess that it was more carelessness than intent to actually cause something on Ash. My main suspicion from this goes to Sudgy. Putting someone to L-1 can cause claims, and did here. Sure, Ash was quick to claim, but I think it's Sudgy fault for putting him in a position to do so.
I did not realize it was putting ash to L-1, and I am extremely sorry I did it.
I'm also unhappy with his threat to vote me unless I unvoted soon. I hadn't been online since Ash claimed. I can't unvote if I'm not online. Why are you trying to make me seem suspicious for not doing something that I was unable to do?
Vote: Sudgy
I had no idea when you were on last. I was just asking/threatening you to unvote. I didn't mean to make a big deal out of it.
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Afternoon check-in:
1. I'm not clear how focussing on Liopoil for a couple hours this morning constitutes tunnelling, particularly when I also suspect Sudgy (although not as strongly, because I think the L-1 thing might have been too much of a derp for scum to not be aware of). On the other hand, it forced a claim, so...
2. I believe nkirbit about logging on and not being unable to unvote before then. He didn't put Ash at L-1 and he didn't RVS vote, so I'm willing to give him benefit of the doubt there.
3. Regarding Sudgy's threat to nkirbit: if nkirbit has himself set to always offline, it makes sense to threaten him when he isn't online because we can't be sure. On the other hand, I think an actual vote at that time (rather than like early tonight or something) would have been a bit scummy and Sudgy could have been setting himself up for that. I look at it as null-leaning-scummy, not a big thing against him, but not a great towny thing either.
4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1. Do other players think this is true? (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil) If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?
It seems like getting mislynched a lot puts town in a tough place (for reasons that may not be your fault.) It makes it easier for you to claim that as scum, and it makes it harder for us to be sure if we should not be lynching you as town. I'm not sure what we can do about that, but my thought is to talk about what behaviors get you mislynched a lot, and I'm curious how you two have played in games when you are scum. I hate to just ask this without input, but meta-arguments are something that seem important in this situation and to which I'm not really qualified to contribute.
Be back around 8ish, maybe a touch later. (But definitely well before the deadline!)
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Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game. But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
I don't think it's dangerous. If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic. L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
Rereading, I don't get this. Why does having 2 scum make L-1 more dangerous? And isn't it always the most dangerous? Are you saying L-2 isn't dangerous? With 2 scum, it is.
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Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm. Vote: ashersky. Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.
These aren't reasons to vote someone. You FOS'd nkirbit for not being on, did you not? And because he could have made up the plan to seem towny, then therefore he did? And Jimmmmm didn't vote Ashersky, or even find him scummy, so what is it you agree with?
vote: sudgy
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Afternoon check-in:
4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1. Do other players think this is true? (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil) If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?
I think it is true lately, actually. I don't know why - they don't have similar playstyles, so not for the same reasons, I'd guess. But I don't think we can use that to sway our votes. I haven't kept track of which of those times they actually were scum, for example
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I've never been mislynched, but more often than not when I am town there is a wagon on me D1. I don't know about sudgy, but I do remember that D1 in samurai and ninjas we both were town, both got wagons on us (and many people seemed confident that we were scumbuddies), but neither got lynched.
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I'm here, and should be around until deadline.
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I'm willing to vote sudgy, but won't put him to L-1 yet.
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Theory post incoming.
Note to fellow town members: you may not want to respond directly to this post. It will include a number of theory items which could be seen as helping scum with decisions during the night. Remember that I know this as I write it, and take into consideration what they may think. I may leave stuff out (if you think I did, maybe don't point it out). I may add things in that are wrong. TLDR: I am ensuring there is a ton of WIFOM here.
As town, we've outed the Doctor (me). No one will counterclaim, as 1) I'm the real doctor, and 2) it's dumb for scum. Town needs to focus on the fact that there are only two scum, and losing your only partner is very, very bad.
So, what happens? We'll lynch someone today. If we lynch town, we go into the night with 4 town and 2 scum. If we lynch scum, we go into the night with 5 town and 1 scum.
Lynch town: I have a 40% chance of targeting someone protectable (2/5)
Lynch scum: I have a 60% chance of targeting someone protectable (3/5)
That's a huge difference, of course.
Scum will NK someone. We know this. The Doctor, a known PR, is the most likely target. So I probably will die, and it won't matter who I target. But I am NOT the most dangerous PR. Here are some chances for the Cop:
Lynch town: Cop has a 50% chance of targeting scum (2/4) (This is so good in fact, that I would have claimed no matter what today)
Lynch scum: Cop has a 25% chance of targeting scum (1/4)
That is awesome, as liopoil might say. I'll take lynching scum today over 50% chance of finding scum tonight every time.
What's my point? My point is, scum has a tough decision to make tonight, which I've laid out for them on a silver platter. No matter who scum is, they would have arrived at this point themselves, so I don't mind posting it. I threw out my odd 3-cop plan to add to the cofusino. The main reason I did this post, though, is to help town scumhunt.
Remember, no matter what, D2 starts with one less town membr. Having either myself OR the cop alive puts town in a great place, and that is guaranteed.
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FoS: Nkirbit.
He's hidden, but he's online. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=profile;area=summary;u=2143
he was last active 5 minutes ago.
This is not scummy. It's a known thing people use. He FoS'ed, didn't vote. I'm okay with this particular post.
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Afternoon check-in:
4. Sudgy/Liopoil: Sudgy said something about both of you being suspected a lot on Day 1. Do other players think this is true? (I don't know, having never played with sudgy and only one on-going game with Liopoil) If it is, does anyone have any ideas as to why it might be true?
I think it is true lately, actually. I don't know why - they don't have similar playstyles, so not for the same reasons, I'd guess. But I don't think we can use that to sway our votes. I haven't kept track of which of those times they actually were scum, for example
I will agree. Both liopoil and sudgy are seem as scummy by most. Sudgy is D1 lynch often, I think.
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I want to point out that I think scum working together in a thread (i.e., protecting each other, given each other town reads, etc.) is MORE likely in this set-up, and in any set-up with only two scum. This is especially true given this is blitz.
Hence, a sudgy-liopoil team makes sense.
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Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.
My nkirbit read was the best out of many weak reads, and I was going to be gone, so I wanted to place my vote somewhere. He's not my top scum read anymore by any means.
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oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.
scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
I think this is the scummiest post of the game.
I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.
So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy. These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
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I will vote: liopoil.
That's two votes for him, so no more voting there.
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2.5 hours to dead line and nobody has anything to say?
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Actually, I agree with Jimmmmm. Vote: ashersky. Either his plan was made before the game or he did to make himself seem like his town self, and he FoSed people who hadn't posted for a tiny bit.
These aren't reasons to vote someone. You FOS'd nkirbit for not being on, did you not? And because he could have made up the plan to seem towny, then therefore he did? And Jimmmmm didn't vote Ashersky, or even find him scummy, so what is it you agree with?
vote: sudgy
I agreed with the whole don't worry about unique votes thing. You didn't include the previous paragraph in the quote, that was explaining it.
Anyway, it's getting later into the day, so who to place my vote on... I'll Vote: EFHW for not acknowledging things I've said (this previous thing, my reason the plan was bad), I know it's not much, but there's not much to go on right now.
Also, sorry, this deadline doesn't work that well for me, so I might not be able to post much more today.
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I am checking in on my phone, but won't be able to be terribly active.
I see what ash is saying with Lio, but still have sudgy as the scummiest. What do others think of him?
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I'm back, catching up now. I'll be on until the deadline.
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oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.
scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
I think this is the scummiest post of the game.
I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.
So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy. These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
your post does make a good point in that in claiming you give our cop a better chance of hitting scum. I had not considered that. I am unsure as to whether scum should try to hit the cop tonight though, and if they should, then your claim probably hurts town. But yes, I am feeling slightly better about our position, except that people seem to be leaning towards lynching me.
I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.
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oh I see. well, we are in trouble though. We made a terrible mistake that could easily have been avoided in so many ways.
scum!liopoil wants to appear worried. town!liopoil is worried. I don't know how you can differenciate between them.
I think this is the scummiest post of the game.
I just laid out why I think town is in great shape, and that my unfortunately forced claim actually helps us overall.
So I see this, and other posts following my claim, plus not unvoting, plus interactions with sudgy, as scummy. These types of "oh noes what did we do!" strike me as building up towncred.
your post does make a good point in that in claiming you give our cop a better chance of hitting scum. I had not considered that. I am unsure as to whether scum should try to hit the cop tonight though, and if they should, then your claim probably hurts town. But yes, I am feeling slightly better about our position, except that people seem to be leaning towards lynching me.
I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.
Why EFHW?
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I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS). At the time of my not-unvote, there was no indication that it would matter. It was a mistake, but not one that was obviously going to hurt town. That is, I wouldn't do it as scum to try to hurt town because chances are it won't hurt town.
and like ashersky said, I now am not sure that claiming is bad for the doc, because it avoids the cop investigating the doc.
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can we have a vote count please?
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I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.
He's worried.
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I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS).
At the very least, it ended up being very anti-town. You have admitted that.
What's scummy, I think, is that you explicitly pointed out that RVS votes were bad. You explicitly stated that your vote on me was RVS. You explicitly came up with a plan (good or bad, doesn't matter) to try to rectify the situation.
You did all three of those things while you were online. You definitely could have (and should have) unvoted at the time. I even asked you to.
That's why it is scummy.
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why I think we should lynch EFHW today:
-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me: Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy: I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon.
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?
Vote: EFHW
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I don't know why people are finding my not unvoting scummy (particularly ash and UoS).
At the very least, it ended up being very anti-town. You have admitted that.
What's scummy, I think, is that you explicitly pointed out that RVS votes were bad. You explicitly stated that your vote on me was RVS. You explicitly came up with a plan (good or bad, doesn't matter) to try to rectify the situation.
You did all three of those things while you were online. You definitely could have (and should have) unvoted at the time. I even asked you to.
That's why it is scummy.
where do you ask me to unvote while I am online?
the problem is, the actions you show above make just as little sense for me as scum.
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why sudgy is a bad lynch:
towny: Sudgy
reasoning behind townread on sudgy: if he's scum, he's more aware about how he uses his vote. He wouldn't unvote promptly after realizing ash was at L-1, because if he was scum he would have already realized that and either wouldn't have placed the vote, or wouldn't unvote. (remember he unvoted 11 seconds BEFORE the claim). Also, he declined my plan, something that if he's scum he knows looks suspicious. plus my gut says he's town too :)
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I too will be on until the deadline. I think EFHW is by far the best lynch.
He's worried.
what?
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I don't think EFHW's reasons for suspecting you and sudgy are all that terrible. In fact, I don't think they're that far off from Ash's reasons, and Ash is pretty much a confirmed town.
And once again, the claiming cop thing doesn't seem any more like rolefishing than Ash proposing it or me jumping on it like a few minutes later or whatever it was, I don't see that plan as rolefishing at all. Wasn't the point for it not to be rolefishing?
Why else do you think EFHW is the best lynch?
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Liopoil, the best way to clear this up: why did you not unvote Ash before you logged off?
You said you didn't think it would matter, but that isn't a reason, and obviously it did matter, and I know I think you should have worried that it would matter. You seem perfectly likely to worry about other things that could matter but may not, hell you were the one to point out the potential for RVS votes to screw us down the line, so why did you not worry about it?
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Vote Count 1.efhw
ashersky (0, u3):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, ashersky
sudgy (2, u2): nkirbit, EFHW
EFHW (2, u2): liopoil, sudgy
Not voting (1): Jimmmm
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
[/quote]
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well, she said in her sudgy thing that he was suspicious of him for declining the plan, which is actually a townie thing and he had just shown why the plan was bad... in that post it seemed like she wanted to mislynch sudgy, but needed to come up with a reason to justify it.
her reason for being suspicious of me was that she thought I was exaggerating. 1) I wasn't exaggerating, and 2) why the hell is exaggerating scummy. If that's not a terrible reason I don't know what is.
apart from pushing too bad lynches for bad reasons, there's the lurking, and I do think that jumping on ash's plan was rolefishing, because ash's plan is bad.
and I am also slightly suspicious of UoS for buddying EFHW, but that's getting in the realm of calling the scumteam, and I don't believe in doing that D1.
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So we have a three-way tie, with two of the three suspects both voting for me.
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Liopoil, the best way to clear this up: why did you not unvote Ash before you logged off?
You said you didn't think it would matter, but that isn't a reason, and obviously it did matter, and I know I think you should have worried that it would matter. You seem perfectly likely to worry about other things that could matter but may not, hell you were the one to point out the potential for RVS votes to screw us down the line, so why did you not worry about it?
I'm not totally sure, but it makes me feel pretty stupid. I wasn't really stressing about it because it shouldn't have mattered if people didn't run ashersky up to L-1, which was a mistake even if they do think that he's scum because of my RVS vote. Look, I can't justify why I didn't do it because there was no reason for me not to do it!
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So we have a three-way tie, with two of the three suspects both voting for me.
and I am also slightly suspicious of UoS for buddying EFHW, but that's getting in the realm of calling the scumteam, and I don't believe in doing that D1.
These two lines are funny to me. I think buddying one person specifically could be a scumtell in this game. And that points to liopoil/sudgy more often than anyone else.
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Ashersky has said he'd vote for sudgy, and I'm willing to switch to liopoil if needed, so I guess we need to hear from Jimmmmm, unless nkirbit or UoS decide to switch to someone else.
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Jimmmmm, get in here and vote!
nkibit, you were active 13 minutes ago. this is the second time. get in here!
I'm suspicious of nkirbit for that alone, and then there's also his vote on the ash wagon which he shouldn't have placed because my RVS vote was still there.
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Ashersky has said he'd vote for sudgy, and I'm willing to switch to liopoil if needed, so I guess we need to hear from Jimmmmm, unless nkirbit or UoS decide to switch to someone else.
Jimmmmm seemed okay with the new deadline, so I expect he'll be here.
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If we are wrong on lio/sudgy, it is in scum's best interest to lurk their way to the deadline. So slight FoS on nkirbit/Jimmmmm, given activity and/or previous statements on availability/deadline movement.
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Well I think I'd probably be willing to switch to Sudgy. I thought he was a bit scummy earlier, then I got to questioning it. I'm rereading the thread now, I'll give you a final opinion when I'm done, but I don't think you should rule me out as a potential Sudgy vote by any means.
I'm unlikely to vote for my bestest bestest buddy EFHW. (I only just found out EFHW was a girl, but I'm still picturing her with a moustache. A big curly moustache.)
(No, I'm not saying I have a townread on EFHW, I'd say it's a null read right now, but it certainly isn't a scum read, so I'm not comfortable putting a vote there.)
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We still have like an hour and 8 minutes, right?
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I'm here!
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I'm here!
wanna vote? preferably for EFHW?
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vote count??
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Vote Count 1.efhw
ashersky (0, u3):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, ashersky
sudgy (2, u2): nkirbit, EFHW
EFHW (2, u2): liopoil, sudgy
Not voting (1): Jimmmm
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
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TA and I are on the way home.. We're out later than we expected. Will be home in about 15 minutes. Catching up on my phone now.
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TA and I are on the way home.. We're out later than we expected. Will be home in about 15 minutes. Catching up on my phone now.
okay. that explains my seeing your activity on your profile. all good!
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I don't buy your reasoning, Lio. Scum should be more careful than sudgy was, but we have use this reasoning to make towny reads again and again. I think the chance of forcing a claim is well worth it, knowing that everyone will say, "oh, if he were sc he wouldn't be so careless." We always say that!
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I don't buy your reasoning, Lio. Scum should be more careful than sudgy was, but we have use this reasoning to make towny reads again and again. I think the chance of forcing a claim is well worth it, knowing that everyone will say, "oh, if he were sc he wouldn't be so careless." We always say that!
but he unvoted BEFORE the claim!!!!
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Well, that's a good point. If he wanted a claim, he would t have unvoted.
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Well, that's true. If he was role fishing he wouldn't have unvoted
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exactly!! that's why I think it isn't scummy, and actually read it as towny because scum would realize that they were putting ash at L-1.
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Thought my message poofed. Posting from a phone is weird
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unvote
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40 minutes, people. Jimmm, caught up yet?
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Back on a computer. Sorry, was out playing board games longer than I expected.
So the wagons right now are EFHW and Lio, since I agree with Lio that Sudgy is a bad lynch. I will review both of those cases quickly.
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Vote Count 1.6
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
EFHW (2, u2): Liopoil, Sudgy
Sudgy (1, u2): EFHW
ashersky (0, u3)
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (2): Jimmmm, Nkirbit
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
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I expect now that a sudgy lynch does not look like it is going to happen, EFHW will move her vote to me.
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Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game. But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
I don't think it's dangerous. If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic. L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
Rereading, I don't get this. Why does having 2 scum make L-1 more dangerous? And isn't it always the most dangerous? Are you saying L-2 isn't dangerous? With 2 scum, it is.
I'm saying that the only way L-2 turns out poorly is if both of the scum quickhammer town. And doing so would reveal their scumminess.. if we can sacrifice a town member today to nail both the scum, that's a fantastic trade.
L-1 is dangerous because one scum can hammer without outing their partner.
I guess L-2 is dangerous in that it allowed Sudgy to vote Ash to L-1, but I think the responsibility to make sure you're not putting a player to L-1 has to rest with Sudgy there.
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I'm definitely not excited about the Sudgy case. I think I have enough uncertainty that if it were that or a no lynch, I'd be willing to switch to Sudgy to avoid a no-lynch, but the fact that he switched of Ash before he claimed does buy him a fair bit of slack for that vote.
Liopoil is still my prefered lynch. I don't like the case on EFHW such as it is.
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Oh, a vote moved off Sudgy while I was rereading. Well in that case, I vote we move away from lynching Sudgy altogether.
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why I think we should lynch EFHW today:
-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me: Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy: I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon.
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?
Vote: EFHW
How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing? None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing? It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
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town to scum:
EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil
I could go for a UoS lynch, if there is sufficient support for it and enough people are online in the next half hour...
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EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
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How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing? None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing? It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...
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EFHW: Care to move your vote to Liopoil, or is there someone else you think we should be considering?
don't worry, she will.
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How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing? None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing? It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...
I still disagree that my plan was helping scum. Do you know who the Cop is now? I don't.
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For what it's worth, I agree with Lio that EFHW made a weak case on him about the "super cop" thing.
1) It's not clear if Lio is even exaggerating here.. maybe the cop is "super good". It's certainly more powerful than the doctor, right?
2) Even if Lio is exaggerating, I'm not sure that's particularly a scum tell. I guess scum do "bend the truth" more, since they're not actually trying to prove the truth, but is a scum really going to go out and lie about how useful a role is? What's the incentive?
Now to re-read the case on Lio.
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I don't see scum!EFHW here. I'm thinking back to Shakespeare EFHW and not seeing any meta-connections.
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How does being the first to claim cop amount to rolefishing? None of those claims at that point in the game should be taken seriously... Can you explain how explaining others to be the second or third cop amounts to rolefishing? It just looks like it amounts to following the plan, to me.
The plan wasn't neccessarily going to happen. EFHW made it happen. The plan can only help scum find our cop. the plan IS rolefishing, but that's tempered a bit by the fact that ash, who proposed it, is IC...
I still disagree that my plan was helping scum. Do you know who the Cop is now? I don't.
nope, but I have a slightly better idea than I did before. Luckily, I'm not scum.
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town to scum:
EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil
If lio is scum, I see sudgy as his partner.
Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
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For what it's worth, I agree with Lio that EFHW made a weak case on him about the "super cop" thing.
1) It's not clear if Lio is even exaggerating here.. maybe the cop is "super good". It's certainly more powerful than the doctor, right?
2) Even if Lio is exaggerating, I'm not sure that's particularly a scum tell. I guess scum do "bend the truth" more, since they're not actually trying to prove the truth, but is a scum really going to go out and lie about how useful a role is? What's the incentive?
Now to re-read the case on Lio.
right, I'm not exaggerating. The cop is the only thing that makes this game remotely balanced, without the cop, scum would have a major advantage. he's super-awesome.
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Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
...how about you?
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For me, from scummiest down:
liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
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Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
...how about you?
I was hitting Post.
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Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said:
I'm here!
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I'm here!
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Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said: I'm here!
Hopefully he's re-reading. It's a short thread.
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Jimmmm, we really need you to put a vote down... you've been online for a while now, and posted elsewhere. you also said: I'm here!
Yes I know, I'm re-reading and trying to sort out the best lynch. I'm leaning you at the moment.
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what the.... no idea how that happened.
For me, from scummiest down:
liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
wow, that's almost exactly opposite my list, and we're both town.... that is not good.
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Mislynch + successful NK = lylo on D2. Just FYI.
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what the.... no idea how that happened.
For me, from scummiest down:
liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
wow, that's almost exactly opposite my list, and we're both town.... that is not good.
Maybe scum is in the middle.
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This seems like hyperbole to me, and a significant change from how Liopoil was talking about these issues yesterday:
already we have significantly lowered our chance of winning, which could easily have been avoided. We have outed the doc, and I'm sure scum have a good idea who the cop is.
Unvote
man, I go to sleep and terrible stuff happens. Frustrated at this town.
first, frustrated at myself for making an RVS vote in a unique votes game and not removing it before I left.
second, frustrated at sudgy for putting someone at L-1 without checking. always always check.
...
fifth, frustrated at people for following this ridiculous plan.
why is this plan ridiculous? because it CANNOT HELP TOWN, it can ONLY HURT TOWN. it cannot help town because the best-case scenario scum ignore all the claiming. worst case scenario someone kinda slips and scum successfully get info on who the cop really is.
But regarding the plan, yesterday Liopoil said I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.
So why does he go from this to complete "Scum know who the cop is" "This plan is terrible, I'm mad at town for following it."
Those objections should have come up from him yesterday, if he thought this was going to matter, not after the damage (such as it is) is already done. Now I don't think we've ruined our chances at all, at least not from how I see the plan working, but it's clear that Liopoil thinks that we have, and this makes him scummy to me. It makes him more likely to be scum who thinks he knows more than he actually does.
crap, just realized... this game uses unique votes as a tiebreaker!!! that means... RVS is bad! and I RVSed!! sudgy did too. that could be a problem...
And after this quote, Liopoil suggests unvoting and voting on everyone else once to even things out. BUT HE NEVER DOES IT. Liopoil had plenty of time to fix his mistake yesterday, and he clearly realized it and was online for quite a while after realizing it, but he did nothing. That seems like the kind of "oops I forgot" that can hurt town while hoping to make it look accidental, particularly if his scum partner wanted to come in and hammer Ash in the night and Liopoil might not have been online during that time. That might have almost happened, I don't know, but Liopoil's declining to unvote after talking about how bad it is seems really suspicious.
Vote: Liopoil
Well, sure, his tone changed from one day to the next, but I think that Lio's message stayed the same. Before, he said "I don't really see why the claims mean anything. The people aren't actually saying that they're the cop. scum can just ignore the claims.".. which I'm reading as "I don't think this plan does anything,".
Lio, from the start, opposed the plan. Posts #42, 51 are the only two early ones I see, and while neither is as strong as what he says the next day, that makes sense, because he went from frustrated to not frustrated. If your case is built on Lio being scummy for this change, I disagree.
Yeah, Lio forgetting to unvote was somewhat anti-town, and I'm suspicious of him for the same reasons I said I was of Sudgy earlier. Scum should know better, but scum know we know that.
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why I think we should lynch EFHW today:
-lurking. I'm pretty sure she's still the lowest on the post count
-first to claim cop, encouraging others to do so too and so rolefishing.
-terrible reason for suspecting me: Right now my tentative scumread is Liopoil, because he hasn't unvoted or voted everyone else, like he said he would, and for the bit of hyperbole in his first post. Having a cop is great, but having one that can't be protected isn't super-awesome.
our cop is super-awesome. they should investigate scum and report back so we can win and stuff.
Also, scum got to talk during the confirmation stage. It would be good strategy to put a couple votes on some players when it was easy and then say "whoops!".
uuhhh what? no hyperbole from me. Our cop is super-awesome. being macho is not much of a nerf. it nerfs the doctor more really. Consider him just like a cop in a game with no protective roles. still awesome. If he could be protected than the cop would be super-OP.
-terrible reasons for suspecting sudgy: I'm finding sudgy scummier, actually, for declining the balance unique votes plan, putting Ash at L-1, and getting on the "UoS is tunneling" wagon.
declining the balance unique votes plan was the correct move, as it was a bad plan, as shown by sudgy. I showed in my other post why I think he's town for putting ash at L-1, and why in the world is finding UoS suspicious scummy?
Vote: EFHW
Whether or not people agree with my reasoning, I do not think these arguments and observations make me scummy:
Responding point by point as to . 1. I may have the fewest posts (though I doubt I do now), but I think you will find that I have responded to each issue that has arisen and participated actively, if concisely, in the conversation. 2. No one objected to the claiming cop plan, so to call me scummy now for participating doesn't make sense to me. 3. My pointing out your exaggeration was a tentative scumread. I didn't vote you for it and I didn't try to make it into more than it was. It was an impression I wanted to put out there for others to think about.
As for the reasons for suspecting sudgy, 1. As I already said, he declined to balance the votes before you brought up any reasons not to. Both of you are also scummy for saying "I'll fix it later", when that might well be impossible. 2. His Ash vote might have been careless. It isn't enough alone to make me suspect him. 3. U of S was not tunneling. It was a conversation between the two of you clarifying what each of you was trying to say. sudgy's comment struck me as fanning the flames of the "UoS is tunneling" idea. It still does. 4. A reason you don't mention is his explanation for not balancing the votes, which is that unbalanced votes could make it harder to mislynch someone. This is not a good reason, as I said before, and the logic therefore seems contrived. 5. By voting and then unvoting Ashersky, he also gave him another unique vote, and maybe that was the intention.
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I don't know what I can say at this point. EFHW will vote for me, and Jimmmm probably will too, even nkirbit might.
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I will note that I had a townread on liopoil during the first half of this game day (yesterday IRL). So he's worked his way down from that.
Sudgy is still a valid candidate.
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I don't know what I can say at this point. EFHW will vote for me, and Jimmmm probably will too, even nkirbit might.
You could push a case on your partner, sudgy.
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Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
I prefer to have more time to carefully consider a list like this, but I understand the desire to have some known-town reads from whomever gets night-killed. So here's my list at the moment. Ugh, I hate doing these things by gut...
Definitely Scum
No one, how can we be sure on Day 1?
Probably Scum
Liopoil
Scum-ish Null
Jimmmm
Nkirbit
Town-ish Null
EFHW (I'm not even sure if I'm putting her here to annoy Liopoil or not.)
Sudgy (I'm still processing his L-1 derp. I thought it was scummy, now I'm thinking it's more towny, but scum could screw up too. You're a tough one to read Sudgy, but in this moment, I'm leaning town.)
Probably Town
No one, I can't trust any of you!
Definitely town
Ashersky
UmbrageofSnow
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I also don't agree with Ash about Lio's post saying "we're in horrible shape" is scummy. I think we are in worse shape, because we have an outed PR! Disgreeing with someone about theory, which I think is basically what happened there, isn't a good reason to find the other player scummy. It's a null for me.
The scummiest thing I have seen between EFHW and Lio was EFHW's voting of Lio for his exaggeration, which I've said previously is a bad case, and I still think is a bad case. Given this,
Vote: EFHW
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Another point to remember, folks:
For town, since you know I'm town, it narrows your list of possible scum by one. It doesn't do that for me, so my reads are necessarily slightly disadvantaged.
Just remove yourself and me from the list (which you are doing), focusing on that can help.
Also, when I was IC (via mason) in a previous blitz game, my reads sucked.
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Okay. I think the argument against liopoil for exaggerating has merit. He has a relatively high post count, but as I've mentioned the majority of that is talking about theory and what's pro-Town. He had given some reads more recently, but I don't really buy into his case on EFHW. Lurking, maybe. But first to claim Cop doesn't mean anything, I think, and I didn't think her reasons for suspecting liopoil or sudgy were terribly terrible.
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I also don't agree with Ash about Lio's post saying "we're in horrible shape" is scummy. I think we are in worse shape, because we have an outed PR! Disgreeing with someone about theory, which I think is basically what happened there, isn't a good reason to find the other player scummy. It's a null for me.
The scummiest thing I have seen between EFHW and Lio was EFHW's voting of Lio for his exaggeration, which I've said previously is a bad case, and I still think is a bad case. Given this,
Vote: EFHW
Disagreeing about theory wasn't my point. Misleading town into thinking we were doomed is. I think scum do that as a sort of psychological warfare. It works, and can get town panicky.
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Official vote count please?
And can we get them every few minutes until deadline?
We're 13 minutes away...
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Vote Count 1.7
EFHW (3, u3): Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit
Liopoil (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky
Sudgy (1, u2): EFHW
ashersky (0, u3)
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (1): Jimmmm
With 7 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch
Deadline is 10 pm forum time on Tuesday, July 23rd
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Vote counts will be provided every time a vote changes from here on out.
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By the way, if EFHW is scum, she could be playing differently here than in RMM6 because she wasn't that suspected in that game.
I don't think lio is scum, but not a townread either.
I obviously think EFHW is the best lynch for today, see my and lio's reasons earlier for that.
Towny=ashersky>TownyNull=Liopoil>Null=Jimmmmm/Nkirbit/Umbrage>Scummy=EFHW
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Nkirbit gets major scum points for putting someone at L-1 without a warning.
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EFHW should vote liopoil anyway, if she is town. Saving yourself is important.
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Ugh, looks like it's up to me. Still leaning lio but will have another read of efhw. I'll be quick.
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Comes down to Jimmmmm's reads.
Anyone want to lynch someone other than those two right now? We have ten minutes and we're all here.
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Ugh, looks like it's up to me. Still leaning lio but will have another read of efhw. I'll be quick.
We have ten minutes! Hurry up!
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I won't vote EFHW, but would vote sudgy. Anyone prefer that?
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Comes down to Jimmmmm's reads.
Anyone want to lynch someone other than those two right now? We have ten minutes and we're all here.
I might not be here for it all, depends on how fast the rest of my family eats dinner (remember that it's 6:50 here).
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I won't vote EFHW, but would vote sudgy. Anyone prefer that?
No. ;)
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Scum to Town:
EFHW > Sudgy > Jimm > Lio > UoS > Ashersky > Nkirbit.
EFHW for what I just voted for. Not a great case, but I think it's the best we have now.
Sudgy, because I still think his actions were anti-town. True, he acted in a way that's consistent with town, but I think scum can do that as well, to look towny! He got his claim and looked towny, perfect scum manuveur, or sloppy town? I don't know. Plus, I still don't like him calling out me for not unvoting Ash when I was simply sleeping overnight. I think it's an easy way to get a wagon going on a player without needing a good reason. Consistent lurking is hurtful and anti-town, but what he accused me was wasn't consistent lurking.. it was lurking for a specific period of time.
Jimm: Pretty null, slight scum for lurking. He's been pretty consistently lurking his way through the game
Lio: While the same anti-town argument applies to him in that he should've been more careful to unvote Ash, I don't think the case against him is good, especially EFHW's case.
UoS: Generally pro town work. I disagree with his case on Lio, but don't find him scummy the way I did find EFHW, because the change of tone he picked up on was there.. I just disagree with his conclusion.
Ash: Claimed doctor with no counter claim.. almost certainly the real doctor.
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EFHW is scum guys... Jimmmm, anything you want me to addresss?
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Comes down to Jimmmmm's reads.
Anyone want to lynch someone other than those two right now? We have ten minutes and we're all here.
I hate to make a decision on the fly like that. If someone that wouldn't vote Liopoil and was uncomfortable with EFHW wanted to vote nkirbit, I'd hammer that, but I don't think we really have the time at this point do we?
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Okay, EFHW has a low post count, and I don't have a particular Town read on her, but I think there more pointing to liopoil being scum.
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Comes down to Jimmmmm's reads.
Anyone want to lynch someone other than those two right now? We have ten minutes and we're all here.
I hate to make a decision on the fly like that. If someone that wouldn't vote Liopoil and was uncomfortable with EFHW wanted to vote nkirbit, I'd hammer that, but I don't think we really have the time at this point do we?
It's been done in the past. nkirbit could get done, depends on what others think.
Where's EFHW all of a sudden? She's not even here to save herself.
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Okay, EFHW has a low post count, and I don't have a particular Town read on her, but I think there more pointing to liopoil being scum.
If you vote liopoil now, it forces a No Lynch tie. That's probably bad.
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Okay, EFHW has a low post count, and I don't have a particular Town read on her, but I think there more pointing to liopoil being scum.
like what? I mean, can I defend myself??
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Nkirbit, remember that my scum philosophy is to psyche myself into thinking I'm town. I try to play exactly the same as each.
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EFHW is scum guys... Jimmmm, anything you want me to addresss?
Nothing in particular, it's just pretty much your whole game reads to me like you're trying to be overzealous and Towny.
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vote: liopoil.
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vote: liopoil.
NOOOOOOOOOO
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Up to Jimmmmm to hammer before deadline if we don't move on to a new wagon.
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Should I have announced intent to vote EFHW, Ash? I assume that everyone knew the situation. I double checked before I voted that no one had voted EFHW.. others should be doing the same.
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EFHW is scum guys... Jimmmm, anything you want me to addresss?
Nothing in particular, it's just pretty much your whole game reads to me like you're trying to be overzealous and Towny.
you mean like active and pro-town? well yeah, I try to do that.
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Vote Count 1.8
EFHW (3, u3): Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit
Liopoil (3, u3): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky, EFHW
Sudgy (0, u2):
ashersky (0, u3)
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (1): Jimmmm
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lynch EFHW tomorrow if we lynch lio today.
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I'd also vote nkirbit
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Neither of our L-1s have claimed anything. I'm pretty certain one has to be scum.
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I'd also vote nkirbit
Why?
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Should I have announced intent to vote EFHW, Ash? I assume that everyone knew the situation. I double checked before I voted that no one had voted EFHW.. others should be doing the same.
It's common courtesy at the very least. Like "this is L-1...vote: etc."
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Should I have announced intent to vote EFHW, Ash? I assume that everyone knew the situation. I double checked before I voted that no one had voted EFHW.. others should be doing the same.
It's common courtesy at the very least. Like "this is L-1...vote: etc."
At this point it's fine to vote for someone to get them to L-1, we have three minutes left.
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Where's EFHW all of a sudden? She's not even here to save herself.
I was detained. If you want me to unvote, I can.
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I'd also vote nkirbit
Why?
Oddest reaction to "the plan." Lame vote on me...
That's about it, I think.
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Leaning scum:
liopoil
Slight scum to null (in rough order):
sudgy
nkirbit
efhw
Leaning Town:
UoS
Town:
ash
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Should I have announced intent to vote EFHW, Ash? I assume that everyone knew the situation. I double checked before I voted that no one had voted EFHW.. others should be doing the same.
It's common courtesy at the very least. Like "this is L-1...vote: etc."
Yeah, it's probably correct that I should have done so, but I wanted to get my vote out as quickly as possible, since the deadline was in 10 minutes.
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Intent to vote liopoil.
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Where's EFHW all of a sudden? She's not even here to save herself.
I was detained. If you want me to unvote, I can.
Nope. You needed to be here to vote for liopoil, or die. Up to you, I guess.
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people, if Jimmm lynches me, don't you dare let EFHW live. The cop should investigate her, and if the cop dies, lynch EFHW. don't you dare let her survive. she is scum.
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Intent to vote liopoil.
Less than 2 minutes. Probably time to choose.
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people, if Jimmm lynches me, don't you dare let EFHW live. The cop should investigate her, and if the cop dies, lynch EFHW. don't you dare let her survive. she is scum.
What he said.
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I'd also vote nkirbit
Why?
Oddest reaction to "the plan." Lame vote on me...
That's about it, I think.
lame vote on me, too
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people, if Jimmm lynches me, don't you dare let EFHW live. The cop should investigate her, and if the cop dies, lynch EFHW. don't you dare let her survive. she is scum.
Instructing the cop is scummy.
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Hammer Vote: liopoil
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Jimmmmm, vote.
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You can lynch me tommorow and lose if EFHW flips town. seriously. EFHW, you up for that?
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THREAD LOCKED
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The town gathered around. Someone must pay for the murder! But who?
Accusations flew. Fingers were pointed, and fights had. But at the end of the day, the majority came to a decision. UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky, EFHW and Jimmm brought Liopoil to the center of the room. "You must pay for what you're done!" shouted Jimmm , shooting Liopoil with a pistol.
They quickly rummaged through Liopoil's person. However, they only found a few coins, some old receipts, and a few pieces of gum. Liopoil was just a Vanilla Townie!
Two mafia remained among the six remaining suspects. Uncertainly, they eyed each other, wondering who the killers could be...
Liopoil , the Vanilla Townie , has been lynched.
Night 1 begins! Please get your actions in within 12 hours.
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Vote Count 1.Final
Liopoil (4, u4): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky, EFHW, Jimmmm
EFHW (3, u3): Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit
ashersky (0, u3)
Sudgy (0, u2):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
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In order to keep the timing of the deadlines consistent, we will be running a 12-hour night. D2 will start at 10 am sharp tomorrow morning. We will then have a 36 hour day, to once again get a 10 pm deadline. Sorry we're not using 24 hour days, but I believe this is the best way to have the most people around for deadline at a convenient time.
Get those night actions in!
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Everyone split up to look for clues as to the murders. When they came back together, however, something was amiss. One person was missing!
Sudgy did not make it through the night. His body was later found in the basement, stabbed to death. He was just a simple Vanilla Townie , though.
The remaining 5 eyed each other. Who could it be?
Sudgy, the Vanilla Townie , has been Night Killed.
Vote Count 2.1
Not voting (5): Jimmmm, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky.
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
Thread Unlocked!
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So! Looks like the scum believed sudgy was the cop after all. Ash's plan worked well. Sudgy wasn't a good nk choice otherwise, since he was a likely mislynch. I suggest we look at nkirbit, and maybe Jimmmmm.
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I also think with such a small group, it could be worth it to have the cop share their result whatever they got. What does everyone else think? 2 IC's would be nice - they can't kill both tonight.
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BUT why didn't they kill Ashersky?
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Okay, so, we're in MYLO. Any mislynch and we lose.
3 town, 2 scum. That means that to get scum, unless scum bus, Ashersky needs to be on board. He is an IC at this point. It will probably just be best to sheep his vote after our discussion, because it's going to be impossible to get scum without him being on board unless there is bussing. So we are pretty much forced into voting who he chooses, right?
Obviously, no voting without seriously discussing it first and making sure you're comfortable with that person being lynched, as scum can immediately quickhammer an incorrect vote by a town member.
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Sorry liopoil and sudgy, for suspecting you.
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So what does MYLO mean? I'm guessing it means we can't screw up, but what does it actually stand for.
Also, scum killing Sudgy instead of Ash is good for us I think. I knew I thought Sudgy was probably a towny who screwed up, but I still had my doubts. I have no doubt about Ash.
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Sorry liopoil and sudgy, for suspecting you.
Me too. You will be missed.
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I also think with such a small group, it could be worth it to have the cop share their result whatever they got. What does everyone else think? 2 IC's would be nice - they can't kill both tonight.
I'm not 100% sure, really. I think there are reasons for the cop to not reveal their result. If the cop is able to get their lynch on a positive target, or avoid a lynch on their negative target (assuming Sudgy wasn't their result) without claiming, that's certainly one reason to not come forward, as they get to investigate again tonight.
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So what does MYLO mean? I'm guessing it means we can't screw up, but what does it actually stand for.
Also, scum killing Sudgy instead of Ash is good for us I think. I knew I thought Sudgy was probably a towny who screwed up, but I still had my doubts. I have no doubt about Ash.
Mislynch and you lose, I think? I'm not 100% sure what the abbreviation exactly means, but basically it amounts to if we lynch a town member here, we lose the game.
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I'm rereading the thread now, in light of knowing Sudgy and Liopoil were town. My last reread was sort of focussing on them, so this is really different actually.
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Oh, so I'm going to be on more today than I was yesterday: pretty much in and out all day, with a long away-from-computer time around 5 to 6ish.
How about you guys, when are you around today?
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I'm going to be heading off in a few minutes.. I will be back online late this afternoon, most likely. Not sure yet about tomorrow, but I'll be around for the deadline for sure.
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I just solved the game guys. If I'd had my coffee, I'd have solved it half an hour ago.
Scumteam is Jimmmmm and nkirbit.
I am the Macho Cop.
Last night, I investigated EFHW: she's town.
Ashersky is the Doctor.
Sudgy and Liopoil are dead town.
There are 7 players, 5 town, so that leaves
Jimmmmm and nkirbit are scum!
Q.E.D.M.F.
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Vote: UmbrageOfSnow
I am a VT. UoS is lying.
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Okay, so Ash is Doc, EFHW is VT, if nkirbit is claiming VT, Jimmmmm will be the only one who could potentially counterclaim cop.
That seems like a tactical error, you should have claimed cop, nkirbit. Otherwise your scum partner has to also say I'm lying and you're tied together.
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Also, wouldn't scum hold onto this for later in the day, given that if we mislynch we lose, this would make it 50-50 vs. the counterclaiming cop, compared to picking 1 of 5.
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Oh, and
Vote: nkirbit
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Also, wouldn't scum hold onto this for later in the day, given that if we mislynch we lose, this would make it 50-50 vs. the counterclaiming cop, compared to picking 1 of 5.
I don't necessarily think so. Keep in mind, it's not picking 1 of 5, it's picking 2 of 4, since there are two scum and Ashersky was never going to be the same.
This makes it an argument with the cop versus the counterclaiming cop. 1 in 2 is the same odds as 2 in 4. If the scum feels he has more credibility than the cop, claiming is good.
Here, all you need to do is convince town and you win. You claimed the two scum as the two players who EFHW had just said she was most suspicious of. Ash had said he was suspicious of me yesterday.
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Vote Count 2.2
UmbrageofSnow (1, u1): Nkirbit
Nkirbit (1, u1): UmbrageofSnow
Not voting (3): Jimmmm, EFHW, Ashersky.
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
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Yes, but how could scum be sure that EFHW wasn't the cop?
She claimed it, she might be just crazy enough to do it.
Or that you, nkirbit, were the cop, since I kept thinking you were who Liopoil meant we he said he thought he knew who the cop was.
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Actually, it was clear nkirbit wasn't the cop because he forgot that the cop can't be protected by the doctor.
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Yes, but how could scum be sure that EFHW wasn't the cop?
She claimed it, she might be just crazy enough to do it.
Or that you, nkirbit, were the cop, since I kept thinking you were who Liopoil meant we he said he thought he knew who the cop was.
Well, EFHW is quite possibly your partner. That would be a good way to know she wasn't to cop.
Yeah, you don't know that I wasn't the cop. But you know at the very least that Ash was suspicious of me, so I think you were hoping that I was the cop, since Ash is the one making the decision, ultimately, and he had way more stated suspicion of me than you.
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Actually, it was clear nkirbit wasn't the cop because he forgot that the cop can't be protected by the doctor.
Hm, where did I say that?
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Actually, it was clear nkirbit wasn't the cop because he forgot that the cop can't be protected by the doctor.
Hm, where did I say that?
I missed this too, actually.
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There are 5 players in this game.
Ashersky is Doctor, of the remaining 4, there are 2 town, 2 scum.
I'm claiming I'm Macho Cop and EFHW is VT.
If I'm scum, then nkirbit is VT.
If nkirbit is VT, that makes the one remaining town member a cop.
If you (EFHW) are not a cop (I know you are not), then that means nkirbit is lying, since there can only be one VT left in the game!
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No.
Ashersky is Doctor.
I am VT.
UoS is scum.
EFHW/Jimm are Scum/Cop. I don't know which is which, yet, but it doesn't seem like EFHW is the cop.
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Well, this is it folks. The gloves are off. The chips are down. Two face off mono a mono, and to the victor go the spoils.
I am the Cop.
I investigated EFHW last night. She is Town.
The scum team is nkirbit and UmbrageOfSnow.
I half expected a scum counterclaim, but it's pretty bold for it to happen this early.
Here's what everyone knows for sure:
nkirbit is scum.
EFHW and ash are Town.
One of me and Umbrage is the Cop. The other is nkirbit's partner. The whole game now comes down to my word against his.
We could lynch nkirbit today and come back to this tomorrow, but I really don't see the point. There's nothing more we can learn today, and it really just comes down to ash and EFHW picking correctly out of me and Umbrage.
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Wow.
Ummm, I feel like an idiot for not seeing the potential for Jimmmmm to throw nkirbit under the bus.
Fuck.
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Get in here, Ash!
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Well, I guess I'm done here.
Vote: EFHW She's scum!
Bad luck, EFHW and Ashersky!
Good luck, partner!
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I actually am still curious about the cop slip EFHW thinks I made. I just re-read it and don't see it. Can you enlighten me, EFHW?
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I was so excited I didn't see this possibility. This always used to happen to me at chess: get excited about a chance to win and not see the potential for it to turn into a trap.
I guess it's all down to you guys (EFHW and Ash) now. Not sure what I can do to help you make the correct decision, worried that everything I say will push you into the wrong one. Gah! This is tough.
Maybe you should interrogate Jimmmm and I about something? I don't know, but I'll be around all day. Don't mess this up guys, I was so sure I had this. And I did, from my POV. :-[
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Also, wouldn't scum hold onto this for later in the day, given that if we mislynch we lose, this would make it 50-50 vs. the counterclaiming cop, compared to picking 1 of 5.
I don't necessarily think so. Keep in mind, it's not picking 1 of 5, it's picking 2 of 4, since there are two scum and Ashersky was never going to be the same.
This makes it an argument with the cop versus the counterclaiming cop. 1 in 2 is the same odds as 2 in 4. If the scum feels he has more credibility than the cop, claiming is good.
Here, all you need to do is convince town and you win. You claimed the two scum as the two players who EFHW had just said she was most suspicious of. Ash had said he was suspicious of me yesterday.
For town, it's 2 out of 3 with Ash being IC. If someone counterclaims, then the third person is definitely scum.
PPE: I see Jimmmmm is counterclaiming. This means (from my perspective as town) that nkirbit is scum.
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vote: nkirbit
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Vote Count 2.3
Nkirbit (2, u2): UmbrageofSnow, EFHW
EFHW (1, u1): Nkirbit
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (2): Jimmmm, Ashersky
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
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3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know.
If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?
I don't see how this plan works at all. Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.
In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three? Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three? So many layers of decisions!
@nkirbit: The bolded part looks like you are saying that the doctor would try to protect the cop.
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3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know.
If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?
I don't see how this plan works at all. Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.
In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three? Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three? So many layers of decisions!
@nkirbit: The bolded part looks like you are saying that the doctor would try to protect the cop.
It's possible that the doctor and mafia target the same VT within that group, though.
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3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know.
If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?
I don't see how this plan works at all. Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.
In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three? Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three? So many layers of decisions!
@nkirbit: The bolded part looks like you are saying that the doctor would try to protect the cop.
It's possible that the doctor and mafia target the same VT within that group, though.
right, but you are saying the doctor would choose to protect someone within that group, and I'm inferring you mean that the doctor would do that because they think the cop is in the group and they are hoping to protect the cop.
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3 claimed cops basically forces mafia to kill among them. Why? Did the real cop claim in that 3? We don't know.
If scum don't know if the real cop is in there, how does it make them kill among the three?
I don't see how this plan works at all. Scum know about the plan, so they can just choose to ignore the claims entirely.
In fact, scum shouldn't kill within those three, because the doctor is going to protect within those three? Does that mean the doctor should protect outside those three? So many layers of decisions!
@nkirbit: The bolded part looks like you are saying that the doctor would try to protect the cop.
It's possible that the doctor and mafia target the same VT within that group, though.
right, but you are saying the doctor would choose to protect someone within that group, and I'm inferring you mean that the doctor would do that because they think the cop is in the group and they are hoping to protect the cop.
Nah. I'm saying that the cop might be in the group, so the mafia might kill there. The doctor might protect in that group because it's possible to catch a VT who the mafia NKed cause they think they might have been a cop. The doctor is hoping to protect a VT who the mafia misfired at.
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Unvote
If scum Jimmmm hammers nkirbit, it gives him the chance to NK one or the other of you to reduce dialogue and therefore reasoning.
I'll put my vote on either nkirbit or Jimmm as Ash and EFHW dictate, but not until we talk this through.
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Get in here, Ash!
I think it's like 4 am in Australia right now.
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Unvote
If scum Jimmmm hammers nkirbit, it gives him the chance to NK one or the other of you to reduce dialogue and therefore reasoning.
I'll put my vote on either nkirbit or Jimmm as Ash and EFHW dictate, but not until we talk this through.
I was coming around to the same idea, just more slowly. Unvote
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Jimmmmm and UoS, what were your thoughts leading you to not claim/claim cop at the beginning of the game?
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Jimmmmm and UoS, what were your thoughts leading you to not claim/claim cop at the beginning of the game?
Should we try to answer this at the same time or something?
Maybe we should set a minute at which we both hit "submit" to questions? We'd need to both agree first, of course, so that would slow things down. I'm happy to answer individuallly if you want, but it's a thought.
If we don't give 3 word answers and submit within the minute of each other, we shouldn't be able to change much based on what the other says.
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Although I guess for this question, we should have very different answers.
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I think you can just answer.
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I don't think it's that big a deal, but I have my answer ready.
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Get in here, Ash!
I think it's like 4 am in Australia right now.
It's 2:30am, and I told myself I wouldn't stay up much past midnight tonight. So I'll be going shortly.
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I spent a lot of time thinking about Ash's plan, which was hard because soon after I started reading the thread, EFHW claimed cop. I started making this big list:
Case A: 3 VTs
Case B: Me + 2 VTs
Case C: 1 Scum + 2 VTs
Case D: Me + 1 Scum + 1 VT
Case E: 2 Scum + 1 VT
Case F: Me + 2 Scum
I decided that scum would want to try to get any real information out of this that they could, so Cases E and F were unlikely, since scum would be prematurely cutting off the number of town that would have to make a statement or not.
I decided that Case A was bad, because if scum came down on the not-cop side of the argument, I'd be caught with only one other townie and two scum. I also thought Ash might be doctor at this point, based on his plan and how much he seemed to be thinking about what the doctor should do. I wasn't sure of course, but I was kind of expecting, whether he were doctor or scum, he'd not want to be one of the 3 for his plan. It might have made him a more likely nk target if scum thought he came up with the thing as a ballsy way to prevent himself being guessed doctor, it would have reduced whatever information he was hoping to gain as scum.
So I thought claiming would make it either Case B or Case D, partly because I thought it would be unlikely for the Doctor to claim Cop, and that way both power roles would be less likely to be in one subset. I did think Ash was doctor, but I thought if he was scum, doctor wouldn't be likely to claim either.
I also, admittedly, thought it was the more ballsy move, and that scum would probably assume Macho Cop would not take a risk like that, since I'm already not protected by doctors and am extra-vulnerable.
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Jimmmmm and UoS, what were your thoughts leading you to not claim/claim cop at the beginning of the game?
I assume you're talking about ash's plan? Well I had a feeling that at least one scum would want to be one of the three. I think I probably would if I was scum. I also thought that they had a higher chance of killing someone who had claimed Cop than someone who hadn't. I know WIFOM's a big thing here, but I felt like it would be better if someone other than me had the target painted on their back. When sudgy bolded his "I am the Cop, not them" claim, I hoped that if sudgy was Town scum would take that as a semi-genuine claim.
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I think Jimmmm and I should prepare to post on why we chose to investigate EFHW.
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Also, when are you likely to be back online after you go to sleep, Jimmmm?
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I think Jimmmm and I should prepare to post on why we chose to investigate EFHW.
Honestly, I just wrote such a post, but I'm thinking it might provide more helpful information if I hold off on it so Jimmmmm doesn't have time to sheep my reasoning and we each post relatively close together.
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My message to Twisted upon receiving my PM kind of sums up how I felt at the start of the game.
...
Confirmed. Okay, here we go. Last time I was Cop I was killed night 1 and scum had a flawless victory I think. Just for reference at the end of the game: I bet you I will be the first nightkill, and go to my grave with vital information. That's just how these things seem to go.
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I think Jimmmm and I should prepare to post on why we chose to investigate EFHW.
Because she was looking like the next lynch, so if I survive I either catch scum or save us from at least one particular mislynch at lylo. I could barely imagine scum killing a VT and giving me perfect information.
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Are we allowed to copy and paste what we sent to Twistedarcher? So it's just his messages to us we can't paste?
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Pulling the trigger now:
I also should probably say that a large part of my slight town read on EFHW yesterday was that she got the plan started, and in a way that felt goofily carefree, almost like daring scum to think a cop would be so bold as to start things off that way.
Liopoil's demand that the cop investigate EFHW last night was really tough to follow through on, because I was worried they'd kill her for either being cop or because of that. But I thought if they shot Ash, well it would be good to know if a scum player and gotten onto my townreads, and if she was town, I liked the idea of confirming her as town since I thought she'd get some heat from today.
And because knowing if both wagons were on town (they were) would have a significant impact on how important it was to analyze who voted for who and when. While if EFHW were scum, it would be good for helping find her partner.
Finally, I thought Ashersky would probably protect EFHW, given what Liopoil said and the liklihood of scum targeting her in case the cop followed his instructions, I know I would have done so if I were Ash.
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Are we allowed to copy and paste what we sent to Twistedarcher? So it's just his messages to us we can't paste?
Yep, I made the mistake of including the timestamp in DS9, which was a big no no.
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Here's what I sent to Twistedarcher last night:
Ugh. This is hard. I kind of want to investigate EFHW, since I suspect people will be calling for her head tomorrow and it makes sense to know, but I also kind of want Jimmmmm. If Jimmmm is scum, it makes a Jim-EFHW scumteam more likely, if he's town we know nothing, because I really do think Liopoil was acting scummier, so it's not a stretch to think he thought the same thing...
Liopoil's commanding me to investigate EFHW makes this that much harder, but I think the best bet is to just
Investigate: EFHW
Unless they night kill her because Liopoil told the cop to investigate her. Gah!
Okay, well that's my investigation for now, am I allowed to change my mind if I say so before the deadline?
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Here's what I send to Twisted last night:
Cop: EFHW
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Here's what I send to Twisted last night:
Cop: EFHW
We are clearly men of very different amounts of words!
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Here's what I send to Twisted last night:
Cop: EFHW
We are clearly men of very different amounts of words!
As if that wasn't clear from the postcount.
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Here's what I send to Twisted last night:
Cop: EFHW
We are clearly men of very different amounts of words!
Well, I was at work at the time.
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Vote Count 2.4
EFHW (1, u1): Nkirbit
Nkirbit (0, u2):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Not voting (4): Jimmmm, Ashersky, UmbrageofSnow, EFHW
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
Mod will be on a train with no internet access for the next few hours.
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I think we should end the day now and lynch EFHW!
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Okay, final thoughts for tonight before heading to bed.
Despite all the analysis Umbrage claims to have done about the game, he claims to have had perfect knowledge and not realised it for four of his posts. It seems highly likely that he was using this time to decide whether he was going to make his big play. He was "rereading the thread now, in light of knowing Sudgy and Liopoil were town", also "knowing" EFHW is Town. Who exactly was he reading it for? If he was really looking for potential scum and there were only two possibilities, this would have dawned on him immediately. It sounds much more like an excuse to give himself time to psych himself up for his big claim.
As soon as I got the result on EFHW I knew exactly that my suspects were Umbrage, nkirbit and sudgy, and as soon as I read that sudgy had been killed, I thought, "Holy crap. I've got this."
"That seems like a tactical error" seems like he's annoyed at his teammate for making it a 50/50 between him and the real Cop, instead of claiming Cop himself and making it 33/33/34. (Not sure who the 34 would be, I'm pendatic okay?)
Also, wouldn't scum hold onto this for later in the day, given that if we mislynch we lose, this would make it 50-50 vs. the counterclaiming cop, compared to picking 1 of 5.
Obviously Umbrage wanted to claim early to get extra credit for an early claim, and here he's trying to enforce the idea that the real Cop must be the one who claims first.
Then in #384, #385 and #388 he overplays his supposed sadness/embarrassment/whatever at not seeing a possibility, when he obviously knew some kind of claim would be coming.
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Anyway, I'm going to bed. Hopefully we can sort this out tomorrow morning. I have work again in the afternoon.
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It didn't occur to me immediately, sorry. I thought there was one more player in the game. I started rereading, trying to figure out who scum would be, in light of Sudgy, Liopoil, Me, Ash and EFHW being town, it took me a page or two to realize that only two people remained. I'm sorry I didn't count sooner.
And yes, it then did take me a minute to psych myself up with the claim, I'd solved the game, I thought I had it, I waned to be sure that if there was a counterclaim, I was the one more likely to be believed over nkirbit or Jimmmm.
I thought that one of them would claim VT, and that would sway EFHW. I admit to not thinking this all the way through. I should have.
I don't see how this benefits scum at all.
It also seems like the interaction with nkirbit would have require a lot more coordination if it was him and me than if it was Jim and him. And what would it have gained scum?
Let's keep in mind that this is my 2nd online game (and the other isn't complete, so I can't talk about it). In real life werewolf, which I've played a couple times, people can usually read my sincerity versus the scum panic, at least with the people I played with. (Admittedly this situation never came up, but I don't think it would be nearly so hard there.)
I didn't think things through, but which is more likely, some elaborate, well-choreographed scum gambit that seems to gain nothing, or rookie mistake?
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Rather, I didn't think there were 8 players, the 7-2-3=2 process of elimination didn't occur to me.
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Should I be building a case on Jimmmm like that?
It occurred to me, but it also occurred to me that anything I say is kind of meaningless, and possibly makes good evidence look worse or directs your attention away from something that's more important so I thought I should keep my mouth shut, but I can start building a case if that has any meaning. Should I?
Also, why does me thinking a lot about the game make me infallible? I was pretty convinced Liopoil was scum, clearly I make mistakes.
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Rather, I didn't think there were 8 players, the 7-2-3=2 process of elimination didn't occur to me.
To further clarify, when I said "I thought there was one more player" I meant that I thought there were probably 3 players unaccounted for as town so I had to try to find the scumteam out of two of them.
I logged on basically immediately upon waking up this morning.
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I removed a paragraph from snows most recent post that mentioned another game.
Please do not mention ongoing games, even in generalities. When in doubt, don't do it, or ask for my permission first.
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Sorry.
I didn't think that was anything more than saying a game existed. Didn't mean to break a rule.
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I'm here, too. I will lay out some info and vote. Give me 20 minutes or so.
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So, here's what I've got:
Pro/Con UoS:
--I had a towny read on UoS to begin with (Pro)
--claimed Cop first (Con)
--delayed claiming (Con)
--newbie mistake not realizing we'd won already (Pro - go see MX for when I did the same thing)
--checked EFHW (Pro)
Pro/Con Jimmmmm:
--I had decided last night that Jimmmm/nkirbit was the scumteam (Con)
--claimed cop second (Pro - second claimant is almost always the real one)
--suggested we lynch a cop, not nkirbit (Pro)
--started the PM quoting thing (Con)
--checked EFHW (Pro)
I believe nkirbit lost the game for his team though, by his reactions to both claims. The thought process for scum NOT killing me (which was my plan, btw) was that the Cop was just too dangerous. I made sure they were thinking about that by posting my big theory post before D1 ended. Laying out the 50% chance of doom for them was pretty good for that, I think.
If scum had killed the Cop N1, we wouldn't be in this situation. Now, scum would have planned for this situation right? They had to think the Cop would claim. So one was going to fakeclaim, no matter what.
We have to assume nkirbit is toast here. He didn't counterclaim UoS, and Jimmmmm has since claimed. We also have to assume that whoever is the partner was selected during the Night to claim, which is why nkirbit didn't counter UoS. He was either playing into the fake claim, or waiting for Jimmmmm.
So, I think we have to gauge nkirbit's reactions to find the real cop.
When UoS claims, nkirbit votes, fights a bit.
When Jimmmmm claims, nkirbit gives up and says nonsense about EFHW.
Now for some quotes...
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nkirbit's reactions to the two claims:
Vote: UmbrageOfSnow
I am a VT. UoS is lying.
And
Well, I guess I'm done here.
Vote: EFHW She's scum!
Bad luck, EFHW and Ashersky!
Good luck, partner!
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Liopoil (4, u4): UmbrageofSnow, Ashersky, EFHW, Jimmmm
EFHW (3, u3): Liopoil, Sudgy, Nkirbit
ashersky (0, u3)
Sudgy (0, u2):
nkirbit (0, u1):
UmbrageofSnow (0, u1):
Wagon analysis. Unfortunately, it tells me nothing, as I expected scum to be split on wagons, plus everyone voted for one of two people.
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Strongest scum reads at this point are Jimmmmm and EFHW.
Why not UoS? These aren't serious reads (I hope), but what was your reasoning for leaving him out?
Re-reading for interactions. This could be worry that I left out a towny, given I listed his partner.
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I know it isn't much, but it might be worth considering that I suggested nkirbit as an alternative lynch when we were debating last minute alternatives.
I'd think that would be risky to say "I'd hammer that" and then not follow through if nkirbit and I were the scum team.
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I guess there's a difference between saying "I claim not Cop" and "I don't claim Cop". If nkirbit is treating these two as the same, then we don't really have a problem, and his non-claim can't be any more or less trusted or suspicious than the claims of EFHW and Snow.
Slight Jimmmmm defense of nkirbit.
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Also, his vote put me at L-2, which is awful dangerous in a 7-player blitz game. But he didn't note it or take in into consideration.
I don't think it's dangerous. If scum want to quickhammer you, I'd be ecstatic. L-1 is the dangerous point, since we have only two scum.
Funny in retrospect, given he's scum.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
This confused me at the time, and still does. This came after my claim. What was the second genuine claim? Was he believing sudgy?
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Having re-read nkirbit, the only thing I really thought was worth mentioning was his interaction with ashersky. From the outset this gives him some scum points since I'm treating ash as confirmed Town. I did find his "I am no cop" a little weird and contrary to the plan, although not as damning as ash did. I do disagree with nkirbit's reaction to ash's reaction to him, that just struck me as regular ash. So slight scumread on nkirbit, half based on the opinion of someone who I believe to be Town, and half for what may have been an overreaction to ash's reaction.
Jimmmmm on nkirbit.
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If we are wrong on lio/sudgy, it is in scum's best interest to lurk their way to the deadline. So slight FoS on nkirbit/Jimmmmm, given activity and/or previous statements on availability/deadline movement.
See me call the scumteam yeterday.
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what the.... no idea how that happened.
For me, from scummiest down:
liopoil >/= sudgy > nkirbit = Jimmmmm > EFHW > UoS > ashersky
wow, that's almost exactly opposite my list, and we're both town.... that is not good.
Maybe scum is in the middle.
More hindsight hilarity.
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Here's UoS's reads post:
Also, everyone needs to do one of these lists right now, before the day ends.
I prefer to have more time to carefully consider a list like this, but I understand the desire to have some known-town reads from whomever gets night-killed. So here's my list at the moment. Ugh, I hate doing these things by gut...
Definitely Scum
No one, how can we be sure on Day 1?
Probably Scum
Liopoil
Scum-ish Null
Jimmmm
Nkirbit
Town-ish Null
EFHW (I'm not even sure if I'm putting her here to annoy Liopoil or not.)
Sudgy (I'm still processing his L-1 derp. I thought it was scummy, now I'm thinking it's more towny, but scum could screw up too. You're a tough one to read Sudgy, but in this moment, I'm leaning town.)
Probably Town
No one, I can't trust any of you!
Definitely town
Ashersky
UmbrageofSnow
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nkirbit's:
Scum to Town:
EFHW > Sudgy > Jimm > Lio > UoS > Ashersky > Nkirbit.
EFHW for what I just voted for. Not a great case, but I think it's the best we have now.
Sudgy, because I still think his actions were anti-town. True, he acted in a way that's consistent with town, but I think scum can do that as well, to look towny! He got his claim and looked towny, perfect scum manuveur, or sloppy town? I don't know. Plus, I still don't like him calling out me for not unvoting Ash when I was simply sleeping overnight. I think it's an easy way to get a wagon going on a player without needing a good reason. Consistent lurking is hurtful and anti-town, but what he accused me was wasn't consistent lurking.. it was lurking for a specific period of time.
Jimm: Pretty null, slight scum for lurking. He's been pretty consistently lurking his way through the game
Lio: While the same anti-town argument applies to him in that he should've been more careful to unvote Ash, I don't think the case against him is good, especially EFHW's case.
UoS: Generally pro town work. I disagree with his case on Lio, but don't find him scummy the way I did find EFHW, because the change of tone he picked up on was there.. I just disagree with his conclusion.
Ash: Claimed doctor with no counter claim.. almost certainly the real doctor.
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And Jimmmmm's:
Leaning scum:
liopoil
Slight scum to null (in rough order):
sudgy
nkirbit
efhw
Leaning Town:
UoS
Town:
ash
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
This confused me at the time, and still does. This came after my claim. What was the second genuine claim? Was he believing sudgy?
sudgy's claim seemed more genuine than the others. I was trying to appear to believe him, and hopefully make him seem more likely to actually be the Cop, and me less likely.
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We've really had two genuine claims on day 1? That kind of sucks really. Just hoping that scum aren't able to take out our two PRs in two nights.
I'm going out this afternoon/evening and should be back to post some time tonight and then tomorrow morning before deadline. Don't do anything stupid.
This confused me at the time, and still does. This came after my claim. What was the second genuine claim? Was he believing sudgy?
Since scum killed sudgy, this makes sense if Jimmmmm is scum. It's also why the WIFOM claiming plan helps even though it seems like it wouldn't. It's hard to see emphatic claims and not believe them on some level. There was no reason to believe sudgy, but he was convincing anyway, and took the kill for the real cop. Of course, scum might have also reasoned that sudgy wouldn't be protected because he was a likely lynch.
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I find I have a very strong bias toward UofS being town and the real cop. I think that's because Jimmmmm has lurked so much. It's almost like he started playing with his claim. Ashersky says that usually the fakeclaim is first, especially with a town result, but in this case claiming wins the game.
I think Jimmmmm is doing a very good job seeming like the real cop, but my opinion is feeling pretty established. I'll give it some more time, though. It's so easy to convince yourself of something and see everything in that light.
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Is the fakeclaim usually first even in non-pressure situations? I mean, it makes perfect sense for fakeclaims to generally be first, particularly in the instance of "oh crap, I need to divert attention", but is this true in a "Oh, I think I have important information" claim?
Because I don't feel like there was any chance of me being lynched today, going into the day.
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nkirbit's reactions to the two claims:
Vote: UmbrageOfSnow
I am a VT. UoS is lying.
And
Well, I guess I'm done here.
Vote: EFHW She's scum!
Bad luck, EFHW and Ashersky!
Good luck, partner!
nkirbit didn't lose the game for his team here because it was already lost (assuming we pick right). It was POE as soon as Jimmmmm claimed that one of UoS was scum and one was town, leaving nkirbit to be scum (since I was verified as town by one of the two claimed cops).
BUT "good luck partner" after having said UoS was lying seems to refer to Jimmmmm. Is that what you mean? It's a very confusing post. It's like he's admitting to being scum and not in the very same post, since he accuses me of being scum but acknowledges being "done".
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Is the fakeclaim usually first even in non-pressure situations? I mean, it makes perfect sense for fakeclaims to generally be first, particularly in the instance of "oh crap, I need to divert attention", but is this true in a "Oh, I think I have important information" claim?
Because I don't feel like there was any chance of me being lynched today, going into the day.
Day 2 of mean girls where Ashersky claimed tracker (ask him about it sometime, he loves to talk about it), Day 3 of pirates where Galzria claimed.. cop I believe? are two recent ones, if you're actually curious and want to read them.
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Is the fakeclaim usually first even in non-pressure situations? I mean, it makes perfect sense for fakeclaims to generally be first, particularly in the instance of "oh crap, I need to divert attention", but is this true in a "Oh, I think I have important information" claim?
Because I don't feel like there was any chance of me being lynched today, going into the day.
Yes. The first good recollection of this is my first game (MX). Frisk claimed Cop when I was the Doctor, and there could be no Cop.
Hydras is one that really sticks out, as I was the real cop there and counterclaimed, but we still lost.
Me in Mean Girls, Galz in Pirates...Robz's on D1 of Mafia Noir where he fake claimed as town. It's basically every time.
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vote: Jimmmmm
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Vote: Jimmmmm
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I looked at the interactions with nkirbit of both cop claims.
Jimmmmm is the more likely partner, by far.
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If we're right, by the way, I'd ask that night not last the full 12 hours, as nkirbit can kill whomever he wants and we'll just lynch him.
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Vote: Umbrage
Don't do it ash!
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unvote
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EFHW, which way are you leaning? I'd ask that you vote now, if you feel okay about it.
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Vote Count 2.5
UmbrageofSnow (1, u2): Jimmm
Jimmm (1, u2): Umbrageofsnow
EFHW (1, u1): Nkirbit
Nkirbit (0, u2):
Not voting (2): Ashersky, EFHW
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
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unvote
I guess you want the hammer? Ok. vote: Jimmmmm
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Vote Count 2.6
Jimmm (2, u3): Umbrageofsnow, EFHW
UmbrageofSnow (1, u2): Jimmm
EFHW (1, u1): Nkirbit
Nkirbit (0, u2):
Not voting (1): Ashersky
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
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Vote: Jimmmmm
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White flag.
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Stole the hammer! One last act of defiance! Any last words?
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Thread Locked!
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Only time for a flip, no flavor :(
Jimmm was a Mafia Goon.
I will start D3 as soon as I have received all night actions.
Get your night actions in!
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Vote Count 2.Final
Jimmm (3, u4): Umbrageofsnow, EFHW, Jimmm
UmbrageofSnow (1, u2):
EFHW (1, u1): Nkirbit
Nkirbit (0, u2):
Not voting (1): Ashersky
WIth 5 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
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Mafia decided to go easy on you guys. There were no deaths last night!
Vote Count 3.1
Not voting (1): Ashersky, EFHW, Nkirbit, UmbrageofSnow
WIth 4 players alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is at 10 pm on Thursday, July 25.
Thread Unlocked!
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Vote: nkirbit
Thanks for believing me, guys.
Sorry I screwed that up so bad.
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Vote: Nkirbit
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I feel for you nkirbit. Lynched twice in the same day, and neither one really your fault. (And actually, both the fault of me getting powerroles.)
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So you're not going to PM me my investigation result, TA? :'(
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You didn't mess up Umbrage.
Tough break, nkirbit. vote: nkirbit
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For what it's worth:
The entire decision to kill Sudgy was my idea. We only had a brief period online together, and we chose Ash. But, I had serious misgivings, and posted them in the QT, but Jimm was unfortunately at work and unable to stop me. He was only able to post a brief message saying he would think about it, but was stuck at work too late to stop me. Entirely my fault for switching.
The reason moving off Ash:
I convinced myself that killing Ash didn't leave us in a good position. There would be an alive cop, who had the confirmed role of another player. I talked myself into believe that the only way killing Sudgy or UoS would be worse than that was if the cop was left alive and they investigated EFHW, unfortunately, that was what happened.
I didn't think EFHW was an option because I thought Ash would protect her. Who did you protect, Ash?
The reason I killed Sudgy, not UoS, wasn't because I thought Sudgy was any more likely to be the doctor. I thought that if Sudgy was the doctor, he would be investigating EFHW for certain. I wasn't sure who UoS would investigate. It could be EFHW, but I also could have seen him investigating myself, or Jimm, or Sudgy. So I killed Sudgy. Obviously the wrong choice, and sorry for making it Jimm. i panicked.
I think the 12 hour night is too short. We had a complex decision, with a lot to go over, and with Jimm being in Australia and me in America, not enough time online together to talk it through. We really could have killed anyone, and for each target, we had a different set of claims we would have to deal with. I think if we had more time, I wouldn't have fucked up, be we didn't, and I did.
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I feel for you nkirbit. Lynched twice in the same day, and neither one really your fault. (And actually, both the fault of me getting powerroles.)
No, this one was entirely my fault.
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For what it's worth:
The entire decision to kill Sudgy was my idea. We only had a brief period online together, and we chose Ash. But, I had serious misgivings, and posted them in the QT, but Jimm was unfortunately at work and unable to stop me. He was only able to post a brief message saying he would think about it, but was stuck at work too late to stop me. Entirely my fault for switching.
The reason moving off Ash:
I convinced myself that killing Ash didn't leave us in a good position. There would be an alive cop, who had the confirmed role of another player. I talked myself into believe that the only way killing Sudgy or UoS would be worse than that was if the cop was left alive and they investigated EFHW, unfortunately, that was what happened.
I didn't think EFHW was an option because I thought Ash would protect her. Who did you protect, Ash?
The reason I killed Sudgy, not UoS, wasn't because I thought Sudgy was any more likely to be the doctor Cop. I thought that if Sudgy was the doctor Cop, he would be investigating EFHW for certain. I wasn't sure who UoS would investigate. It could be EFHW, but I also could have seen him investigating myself, or Jimm, or Sudgy. So I killed Sudgy. Obviously the wrong choice, and sorry for making it Jimm. i panicked.
I think the 12 hour night is too short. We had a complex decision, with a lot to go over, and with Jimm being in Australia and me in America, not enough time online together to talk it through. We really could have killed anyone, and for each target, we had a different set of claims we would have to deal with. I think if we had more time, I wouldn't have fucked up, be we didn't, and I did.
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Congrats Town. Killing a VT last night really screwed us over. The night went from midday to midnight my time, and I left for work at about 12:30pm and got home after midnight. The sudgy kill was a total surprise to me when I got home. On the other hand, if he'd been the Cop I'd be lauding nkirbit's brilliance. Also, nkirbit, claiming VT was probably the worst thing you could do after Umbrage's claim.
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Boo Jimmmmm for stealing my hammer!
I protected Snow, for all the good it did.
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I nominate UoS for MVP. Ash was also quite V.
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Congrats Town. Killing a VT last night really screwed us over. The night went from midday to midnight my time, and I left for work at about 12:30pm and got home after midnight. The sudgy kill was a total surprise to me when I got home. On the other hand, if he'd been the Cop I'd be lauding nkirbit's brilliance. Also, nkirbit, claiming VT was probably the worst thing you could do after Umbrage's claim.
Yeah, nkirbit needed to counterclaim UoS, then get lynched as the liar. Still probably gets Jimmmmm killed, since UoS said EFHW was town, but it gave Jimmmmm a fighting chance.
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For what it's worth, my thought process on who to investigate went:
nkirbit -> EFHW -> Jimmmmm -> EFHW -> Jimmmmmm -> EFHW -> Jimmmmmmm -> EFHW. Am I sure? No. Fuck. EFHW.
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Did my 3-cop claim plan affect your thinking on who the cop was, mafia team?
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Congrats Town. Killing a VT last night really screwed us over. The night went from midday to midnight my time, and I left for work at about 12:30pm and got home after midnight. The sudgy kill was a total surprise to me when I got home. On the other hand, if he'd been the Cop I'd be lauding nkirbit's brilliance. Also, nkirbit, claiming VT was probably the worst thing you could do after Umbrage's claim.
Yeah, nkirbit needed to counterclaim UoS, then get lynched as the liar. Still probably gets Jimmmmm killed, since UoS said EFHW was town, but it gave Jimmmmm a fighting chance.
At least if we had 3 people claim Cop, EFHW and ash would only theoretically have a 1/3 chance of getting it right.
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So I was right when I said that was a tactical error! Huzzah.
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Congrats Town. Killing a VT last night really screwed us over. The night went from midday to midnight my time, and I left for work at about 12:30pm and got home after midnight. The sudgy kill was a total surprise to me when I got home. On the other hand, if he'd been the Cop I'd be lauding nkirbit's brilliance. Also, nkirbit, claiming VT was probably the worst thing you could do after Umbrage's claim.
Yeah, nkirbit needed to counterclaim UoS, then get lynched as the liar. Still probably gets Jimmmmm killed, since UoS said EFHW was town, but it gave Jimmmmm a fighting chance.
At least if we had 3 people claim Cop, EFHW and ash would only theoretically have a 1/3 chance of getting it right.
We didn't need to guess who was the real cop, just who wasn't. So 2/3 chance, worse than 50:50 from your perspective.
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Yeah, it was Jimm, but I was in full on panic mode by that point. :/ I should have seen it coming, but it really was worst case scenario.
I don't think that I'm outarguing UoS, anyway. I'm interested to see what he's going to be like as scum.
This game convinced me of LALL, more than anything else I've seen. I didn't even lurk intentionally. I went out that afternoon with Ash voting for me, and came back home with 2 votes each on Sudgy, Lio, and EFHW. Lurked right through the possibility of being the Day1.
If we kill Ash, we go into Day2 with EFHW, UoS, and Sudgy as the townpeople, with UoS still having the cop result on EFHW. Certainly a winnable situation, and a situation we should have been in.
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For what it's worth, my thought process on who to investigate went:
nkirbit -> EFHW -> Jimmmmm -> EFHW -> Jimmmmmm -> EFHW -> Jimmmmmmm -> EFHW. Am I sure? No. Fuck. EFHW.
I was 90% sure that the Cop would investigate EFHW.
So I was right when I said that was a tactical error! Huzzah.
Yep.
And I've just realised the game isn't technically over, so maybe I shouldn't be posting...
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If we kill Ash, we go into Day2 with EFHW, UoS, and Sudgy as the townpeople, with UoS still having the cop result on EFHW. Certainly a winnable situation, and a situation we should have been in.
On the other hand if we'd killed the Cop, we'd be laughing. Don't be too hard on yourself, you made a gutsy move, it just didn't work out.
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Did my 3-cop claim plan affect your thinking on who the cop was, mafia team?
Heh, actually, this is me in our QT.
"Plus, he [UoS] was second to claim cop, which seems right where the cop would want to be? Maybe?"
The reason I killed Sudgy was because it was an extremely slight read on UoS more likely being the cop, and as I said, I thought UoS was more likely to not investigate EFHW.
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Congrats Town. Killing a VT last night really screwed us over. The night went from midday to midnight my time, and I left for work at about 12:30pm and got home after midnight. The sudgy kill was a total surprise to me when I got home. On the other hand, if he'd been the Cop I'd be lauding nkirbit's brilliance. Also, nkirbit, claiming VT was probably the worst thing you could do after Umbrage's claim.
Yeah, nkirbit needed to counterclaim UoS, then get lynched as the liar. Still probably gets Jimmmmm killed, since UoS said EFHW was town, but it gave Jimmmmm a fighting chance.
At least if we had 3 people claim Cop, EFHW and ash would only theoretically have a 1/3 chance of getting it right.
We didn't need to guess who was the real cop, just who wasn't. So 2/3 chance, worse than 50:50 from your perspective.
I should have claims a town cop result on you. Then, you have to decide who is telling the truth, since you have to lynch two of us in three days.
It's 2/3 day2, but 1/2 day3, so 1/3 total. That would have been better, although I think UoS still would have been the choice. I think claiming first is the best when there are three claims.
Had we had more time to discuss this plan, perhaps we would have come up with "One of us immediately claims if this situation happens". I should have done it after UoS claimed. But ideally, once we see Sudgy was VT, we should have immediately claimed cop and a town result on EFHW.
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If it were me, EFHW, and Sudgy, I'd be pretty much calling a Jimmmm/nkirbit scumteam anyway, although I wouldn't have claimed.
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Did my 3-cop claim plan affect your thinking on who the cop was, mafia team?
Not really. I really did read sudgy's claim as genuine for a while, I guess I didn't have time to think things through at that point in time. I was confident it wasn't EFHW given how close she was to being lynched, so we just had to pick between Umbrage and sudgy. I think I would have leant Umbrage, but I didn't really have the time to think it through and make a decision.
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Heh, I do like that a lot of the suspicion happened to fall on Jimm and I for lurking. I can't speak for Jimm, but I wasn't intentionally lurking at all. I was just out doing stuff!
I would have been on my phone, but I didn't want to be that jerk who was on his phone in the middle of a board game :P
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gg, everybody. I think that's the first time I've ever seen town win in LYLO (I know it's happened before, but I've never noticed it).
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Heh, I do like that a lot of the suspicion happened to fall on Jimm and I for lurking. I can't speak for Jimm, but I wasn't intentionally lurking at all. I was just out doing stuff!
I would have been on my phone, but I didn't want to be that jerk who was on his phone in the middle of a board game :P
You really can't win. People in your boardgame would be more likely to attack you for messing around on your phone. At least the people I play with tend to be that way.
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Heh, I do like that a lot of the suspicion happened to fall on Jimm and I for lurking. I can't speak for Jimm, but I wasn't intentionally lurking at all. I was just out doing stuff!
I was in the same boat. I should have pulled out of the game as per my first pre-game post, but by the time I realised it was starting I'd already received my PM and would have felt bad delaying it.
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nkirbit was mafia goon.
town wins!
-
And hey, Liopoil, I'm sorry things got a little heated between us there.
-
Also, I saw the hammer vote and thought the game was over... Sorry for posting before I was supposed to...
-
This may be the first time I've won and survived to the end as Town and PR.
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I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.
Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!
I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(
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Unfortunately for scum they kinda shot themselves in the foot, but a good game all around by everyone! It was fun to follow and hopefully I'll be in time to sign up for the next blitz. ;)
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I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.
Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!
I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(
So much irony in that statement.
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I was following closely, good job town! Had I requested a speccy like I should have, I would have been all wrong everywhere.
Scum is found in the middle though, remember that kids!
I think ash's day 1 plan was absolutely terrible, but it did work out rather great for town so I don't know anymore.. My strongest day 1 read was ash being scum for proposing something so awful :(
So much irony in that statement.
Haha. Yeah.
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I kind of liked Ash's plan. I was nervous about getting in 2nd though.
I was hoping to be first on it, before EFHW jumped on it, because I thought that was a dumb place for cop to be. Of course saying that, if something like that happened again I'd be off it.
(Or would I??????)
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Question for the spectators: did you guys think I was cop?
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I didn't see it, no.
But the problem with the plan as I see it: scum can 100% ignore the claims if they want, and it's as if no plan took place.
However, someone can screw up. No one did here (yay!, I was rooting for town), but if someone did and scum was able to either reduce the pool of potential cops or outright deduce who the cop was, that would be very bad.
Introducing wifom that requires scum to screw up for it to be helpful (again, otherwise they could just ignore the claims) seems really not ideal to me, but one could really argue you did successfully wifom scum here, so go you (as in town collectively)!
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Yeah, I would argue that the ideal move is for scum to ignore claims, but it's awfully tempting to try to read into them I think. Human nature.
And yeah, I don't think it's a game-breaking, this will always work plan, but in Blitz particularly, I like things like that.
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Spec QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/pZbctMjYxdtWD
Mod QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/cCzKxfNJJ6py
Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/TMMHhQ3yCs5x
Sorry, I was running around, and not expecting the game to end today.
I think this format was interesting. I really liked it, and would happily play/run it again.
There's a variant where scum has a roleblocker. That may help against counterclaims, and make it more balanced.
Congrats to town!
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wow, I thought town was screwed. N1 went perfectly for town.
I maintain that the plan is terrible. It helped scum here. scum figured out that EFHW wasn't the cop. and it cannot help town.
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I don't think scum needs a roleblocker. Even this is probably slightly in favor of scum.
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Does anyone else think the super short deadline is likely to favor scum a little bit?
I mean, if we'd had more time, Ash, EFHW, and I might very well have been pushing for an nkirbit lynch that first day, had we cleared Sudgy earlier and had Liopoil had a bit more time to convince us he was town. I mean we can't be sure that would have happened, but I know I was much less willing to move my vote even as I started having hesitations about Liopoil because those hesitations didn't come until an hour before the deadline.
I like Blitz though, it was exhilarating and I didn't talk that much more than anyone else. But I kind of think Blitz might have some scum-favoring tendencies anyway, although the short night kind of screwed Jimmmmm and nkirbit.
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after:
5 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard: I've never been lynched, woo!
6 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard: I've never been misslynched...
6 normal games + 1 RMM + 1 bastard + 1 blitz: I've never been misslynched in a normal game...
I'm slipping...
(In the RMM my lover got lynched, and in the bastard I was daykilled and mail-mi got lynched, but it could just as easily have been the other way around...)
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Does anyone else think the super short deadline is likely to favor scum a little bit?
I mean, if we'd had more time, Ash, EFHW, and I might very well have been pushing for an nkirbit lynch that first day, had we cleared Sudgy earlier and had Liopoil had a bit more time to convince us he was town. I mean we can't be sure that would have happened, but I know I was much less willing to move my vote even as I started having hesitations about Liopoil because those hesitations didn't come until an hour before the deadline.
I like Blitz though, it was exhilarating and I didn't talk that much more than anyone else. But I kind of think Blitz might have some scum-favoring tendencies anyway, although the short night kind of screwed Jimmmmm and nkirbit.
Nah, I don't think so. A lot of the evidence against me wouldn't have existed in a normal game.. I certainly don't get pressure for not posting for four hours in a normal game (can you imagine..?), and I don't place a bad EFHW vote in a normal game (I was sort of forced to decide between Lio and EFHW because of the fact it was blitz and I had to make a choice, and I didn't really have a good reason to find either one scummy).
Scum don't have the time to see how things develop that they would in a normal game. They're much more pressured to get their hands dirty, and it can be obvious the next day. Scum have much less opportunity to sit back in blitz than they do in a normal game.
The other thing is, everything is accelerated in a blitz game. You may say that we clear sudgy, and still have time, but keep in mind, we don't clear Sudgy until waaay later in the day in a normal game. And while town don't have time to build a compelling case on mafia all the time, there is much less talking in blitz than a normal game. Pretty compelling cases can be built against town players, just because saying more things leads to saying more scummy things, because some of the things a town person said can be interpreted incorrectly, and the more a townperson talks, the more chance they say something scummy. So it's a lot harder to build a convincing case against a townperson for mafia than it is in blitz.
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FWIW, I was seriously, seriously considering making the exact claim I made at the start of the day. Just would have been in even bigger trouble if it turned out EFHW was the Cop. I knew we were in trouble and should have just gone for it.
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Good point, nkirbit. Yeah, I didn't think of that. Think it's a wash then?
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So Jimmmmm: If you coming out and claiming immediately is what you think would have been the correct play for you, do you think I'd have been in a better position counterclaiming you than the other way around or not. If not, does that mean claiming immediately was the right play, even though I was feeling like things were unnecessarily going to hell there for a moment?
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So Jimmmmm: If you coming out and claiming immediately is what you think would have been the correct play for you, do you think I'd have been in a better position counterclaiming you than the other way around or not. If not, does that mean claiming immediately was the right play, even though I was feeling like things were unnecessarily going to hell there for a moment?
I think in general being the first to claim is seen as more likely to be truthful. There's a good chance it wouldn't have helped though. I think my biggest problem was what seems to happen these days, especially in blitz games, and that's just that I didn't have enough time to play the game I would have liked to have played.
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If our positions were reversed and you were the cop, would you have claimed the scumteam?
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UoS - you didn't mess up! You were just surprised to be counterclaimed. But your claim was absolutely the right thing to do.
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If our positions were reversed and you were the cop, would you have claimed the scumteam?
Yeah I think so. Or maybe I would have waited for a bit to see if we could get there without my needing to claim. But I probably would have claimed.
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town to scum:
EFHW
UoS
Jimmmmm (pretty much null)
nkirbit
sudgy
ashersky
liopoil
I could go for a UoS lynch, if there is sufficient support for it and enough people are online in the next half hour...
Loving how liopoil put himself as scummiest.
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oh wow. scum to town