Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: theory on June 24, 2013, 09:58:49 am
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Posted on the main page (http://dominionstrategy.com/2013/06/24/dominion-outtakes/).
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I read through this earlier this morning... holy crap, that's a lot of detail. I guess this is really the end of Dominion, then. If he's willing to reveal all those beta cards, there must not be a chance of them seeing the light of day.
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Awesome read, but I fear jsh is right :(
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Well, you know, there are lots more ideas for cards. As is always true in game design, ideas are cheap. Most of these outtakes were outtakes because they didn't work.
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Good to see the +buy was added to Wharf to make up for its otherwise very mediocre effect.
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I haven't read all yet, but the best is the last line: "I will post an overall secret history of Dominion in the near future."
Wait, what is this then?
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Can anybody tell me what the issue with Balcony is?
For reference, it's this card:
Balcony
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Discard 3 cards.
Donald's comment is, "The Balcony that draws, Thrones, then discards, has uh there’s some special computer term for this. I can’t remember it. It has big problems." Does anybody know what he's talking about?
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Can anybody tell me what the issue with Balcony is?
For reference, it's this card:
Balcony
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Discard 3 cards.
Donald's comment is, "The Balcony that draws, Thrones, then discards, has uh there’s some special computer term for this. I can’t remember it. It has big problems." Does anybody know what he's talking about?
Well, for one thing, it means you may have no idea if it will be terminal or not until after playing it. Did you draw a village with your +2 cards? Congrats, you can play your other actions. No? Out of luck, you should have played one of those witches instead.
That may not be the only reason, but he mentioned in one of the other secret histories (maybe tournament?) that it's a concern. There's a reason the only two cards I can think of (edge casers ahoy) that do that are tribute and golem, both of which are early cards.
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Can anybody tell me what the issue with Balcony is?
For reference, it's this card:
Balcony
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Discard 3 cards.
Donald's comment is, "The Balcony that draws, Thrones, then discards, has uh there’s some special computer term for this. I can’t remember it. It has big problems." Does anybody know what he's talking about?
Not sure about the computer term he is referring to, but I guess is the tracking issue in chains.
Balcony - Balcony - Embassy - Balcony - Embassy
I draw 2 cards, then I draw 2 cards, then I draw 5 cards and discard 3, draw 5 and discard 3, then I uh... discard 3 cards and draw 2 cards, and draw 2 cards, and draw 5 cards... and uh, now it's getting complicated.
Edit: Maybe the term is backtracking or recursion!?
Edit 2: Let me try this:
Draw 2, Draw 2, Draw 5, Discard 3, Draw 5, Discard 3, Discard 3, Draw 2, Draw 2, Draw 5, Discard 3, Draw 5, Discard 3, Discard 3, Draw 2, Fail to play something twice, Discard 3, Discard 3, Discard 3
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It's very nearly strictly better than Throne Room. I like it as a simultaneous-Tactician enabler, though!
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It seems like it might have such a huge gap between "this card is unstoppable" and "this card is terrible" that it would be hard to balance.
If you get a chain going, the thing is like a Throne Room that also has +2 cards on it. Play Balcony, draw two cards, choose balcony... and you're off, and you never need to do the discard cards penalty until the very end, where your near-treasureless deck has played all its actions anyway. Whereas if it fails, it's even worse than throne room - if you play one of these and don't find another action, you're left with a 3-card hand. Maybe it was just too hard to balance it to make it playable-but-not-overly-dominant in more cases. Because "sometimes unstoppable but sometimes completely terrible" doesn't make for a good card unless there's a lot of space in the middle too.
I mean, a lot of engine-dependent cards have something similar going on with them, but this might have it even more so than Throne Room and Procession.
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Thanks, guys. That's enough to convince me. I think Qvist's explanation is the biggest issue, but ftl and Just a Rube also make excellent points.
Mostly I was just making sure that a Throne variant I'm testing won't have whatever issues this version of Balcony has. Other than some minor tracking issues (nowhere near as bad as Balcony), it looks like I'm OK.
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I'm pretty sure this is better than TR when it fails. I mean, draw 2, discard 3 - so you get 3 cards out of 6 for BM. I doubt this is better than silver for BM, of course, but 3 of 6 should usually be better than 4 of 4, I think.
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Can anybody tell me what the issue with Balcony is?
For reference, it's this card:
Balcony
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+2 Cards. You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Discard 3 cards.
Donald's comment is, "The Balcony that draws, Thrones, then discards, has uh there’s some special computer term for this. I can’t remember it. It has big problems." Does anybody know what he's talking about?
He might be referring to stack overflow? Putting a ton of stuff on the stack and then having to remember to do other things (discard) after the stack resolves could be horrifying. It's a recursion issue that most commonly occurs with infinite recursion, but it also occurs when you attempt to perform recursion through too many steps and run out of memory. The amusing part here is that the memory you run out of is human memory.
Remember how difficult it was to count King's Courted actions you have left? This would be like that but worse.
It's very nearly strictly better than Throne Room. I like it as a simultaneous-Tactician enabler, though!
Balcony-Balcony-Tactician-Tactician... oh dear lord.
Play Balcony
Draw 2 cards
Play Balcony
Draw 2 cards
Play Tactician - discard hand
Play Tactician - fails
Discard 0 cards
Play Balcony
Draw 2 Cards
Play Tactician - discard hand
Play Tactician - fails
Discard 0 cards
Discard 0 cards
It probably still wouldn't be worth setting up (it requires 4 Tacticians and 3 Balconies, at minimum, to loop it; and you need a lot more Balconies and/or high Tactician density, since the second has a 2-card window), but that's crazy.
e: errors
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I wonder what's wrong with this one:
Herald
Cost: 4
+1 Action
Look at the top 4 cards of your deck, put one into your hand and discard the rest.
Donald said "...the innocent-looking but crazy Herald" But I can't tell which one he's referring to. If it's the one above, I'm assuming it's so crazy because of how well it cycles, but I made a fan card awhile ago (cost 1$ less, looked at 1 fewer cards) and it played O.K. I thought.
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Hmm... quick cycling, and looking at 4 cards seems reasonable for it to be a lot more than just a cantrip, probably close to lab. I dunno if it does mean that version mind, but I could see it being a lot better than it looks. I could also see it being a lot less good than I imagine here. Did your version discard the others, or top deck them?
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I think it just makes any sort of engine or combo really reliable really quickly. You don't even necessarily have to find the other combo piece in your top 4 cards, another Herald will do fine.
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I am kind of wishing that Masterpiece also had 1VP tacked on. Yeah, it makes for a boring Victory card, but it's a small change and then the set would have an alt VP. Not to mention it might mean less half-Harem fan cards. ;)
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Isotropic images :'(
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Hmm... quick cycling, and looking at 4 cards seems reasonable for it to be a lot more than just a cantrip, probably close to lab. I dunno if it does mean that version mind, but I could see it being a lot better than it looks. I could also see it being a lot less good than I imagine here. Did your version discard the others, or top deck them?
Same exact card, except with a 3$ cost and a 3 card pick. So it discarded them. But Warfreak has a point that all you could buy just those and do fairly well.
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I wonder what's wrong with this one:
Herald
Cost: 4
+1 Action
Look at the top 4 cards of your deck, put one into your hand and discard the rest.
Donald said "...the innocent-looking but crazy Herald" But I can't tell which one he's referring to. If it's the one above, I'm assuming it's so crazy because of how well it cycles, but I made a fan card awhile ago (cost 1$ less, looked at 1 fewer cards) and it played O.K. I thought.
Seems really strong for 4. Would be quite a reasonable card at 5 - compares pretty nicely with Cartographer, don't you think?
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Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term "Confusion card"???
I can only assume it was some kind of sabtitute for Ruins...
And what about the "+Builds"????
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Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term "Confusion card"???
I can only assume it was some kind of sabtitute for Ruins...
And what about the "+Builds"????
Confusions were simply blank cards - like a Curse, but they didn't give -1 VP. Sure enough, Donald tweaked the concept and created Ruins in their place.
"Build" was the original term for "buy."
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Can anyone tell me what is meant by the term "Confusion card"???
The DXV approved answer (http://www.fennvillenews.com/images/spiral-enlarge.gif)
(But really what Voltaire said)
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Isotropic images :'(
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/pou_7153.png)
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Isotropic images :'(
Not gonna lie, my initial reaction was "whoa, they kept the same images from the prototype until now!"
I've played a couple hundred games with the real images by now, too, but those will always be the first ones I think of.
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Shouldn't this also be added to the Bible of Donald X.?
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Good catch. I linked it. The images make it a little cumbersome to turn into a forum post.
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I really liked the "Balcony" idea you guys are talking ab out on the posts above. I would really like to see a card like that. If it existed, it would bring a new age to Throne Room-based engines. Perhaps, the discard afterwards is what makes this card practically unplayable. I have thought of a version that, perhaps, could have been better for this card:
Balcony
Cost: $5
+2 Cards
Choose an action card in your hand. Play it twice. If you do, trash a card from your hand.
I'm pretty sure, though, that Donald has already thought of various versions for this card that couldn't make it to an expansion set, but i believe that this version is not really catastrophic. It requires a card to be trashed, so you need to have junk in your deck in order to make it work and you are also forced to "throne" a card, rather than allowed, as it is with Throne Room. Additionally, the "If you do" statement does not let the card be used as a "free" trasher.
Another version of this card that i have thought, is to cost $3 or $4 and either trash the Balcony played, or trash the action throned.
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The biggest issue is keeping track of everything. You have to remember, after you've been working on resolving whatever other card twice, that Balcony still has stuff for you to do.
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The biggest issue is keeping track of everything. You have to remember, after you've been working on resolving whatever other card twice, that Balcony still has stuff for you to do.
Yup. The problem is that having a card that plays another card, then does something, creates colossal stack issues when chained.
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You could just have it do it's other thing first.
Trash a card from your hand. Choose an action and play it twice.
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+1 for the distinctive selection of an overbashed font in the first few generations.