Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on June 19, 2013, 08:32:37 am

Title: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Qvist on June 19, 2013, 08:32:37 am
Video Link: http://youtu.be/kzSOBSi7ka8

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/85/Dame_Natalie.jpg/200px-Dame_Natalie.jpg)#10 Dame Natalie Weighted Average: 13.6% / Median: 11.1% / Standard Deviation: 19.3%
Highest Value(s): #3 (1x), #4 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (16x)

Dame Natalie aka the Gainer Knight is the worst of the knights. She was voted last 16 out of 35 times and was voted in the Top 5 only 2 times. She has the second lowest deviation in this list.

If you go heavily for Knights you want to play them as often as you can. Dame Natalie gives you the ability to flood your deck with $3 cost cards, but on most boards this decreases the ability to play them often. Therefore that's a good Knight to pick up as a defense. Then you can flood your deck with Silver and you don't mind if she's getting trashed to a strong knight. With cheap engine components like Village, Hamlet or Fishing Village this can be a really good Knight to pick up in the early game though. You use this as a gainer and can slow your opponent. But of course this is very situational. What's not to underestimate is the possibility to gain Estates in the end game when the game is close to a tie.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ab/Sir_Martin.jpg/200px-Sir_Martin.jpg)#9 Sir Martin Weighted Average: 18.4% / Median: 11.1% / Standard Deviation: 18.4%
Highest Value(s): #4 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (10x)

Sir Martin aka the +Buy Knight is slightly better than Dame Natalie. He has the lowest deviation in this list and the lowest highest rank on #4. But he has only 10 last ranks and 3 votes in the Top 5.

The +2 Buys is of course the weakest benefit of all knights. But Sir Martin costs only $4. As you know the difference between a $4 and $5 cost card is big and the attack effect for only $4 is not a bad deal. Also he's a cheap knight you can pick up only for defense purposes if your opponent goes heavily on Knights. Also if you're playing an alternative strategy like going for Gardens Sir Martin is a great Knight to get. If you heavily go for Knights, Sir Martin is probably the weakest you can get because if you go for an engine you most likely have another source of +Buy already and you really can't rely on getting him. What makes him good in an engine is that you can pick him easily up with a gainer like Ironworks, so he has a low opportunity cost.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/30/Sir_Vander.jpg/200px-Sir_Vander.jpg)#8 Sir Vander Weighted Average: 31.3% / Median: 22.2% / Standard Deviation: 25.0%
Highest Value(s): #2 (1x), #3 (3x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (4x)

Sir Vander aka the On-Trash Gold-gain Knight has a much higher rating than the last two. He was voted 7 times in the Top 5. But still he was voted last 4 times.

Sir Vander has no special on-play ability what makes him look weak. But if you have only $5 and want a Gold instead this isn't a bad deal. You can use him to slow your opponent down a little bit and you really don't care if he gets trashed. You converted a $5 cost card into a $6 cost card. He's probably more useful as defense though. Your oppoent has to trash a probably better Knight and you get a Gold out of him, a very good deal for you. Also it's possible to use a trash-for-benefit card on him although I think I've not done it yet.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/dd/Dame_Josephine.jpg/200px-Dame_Josephine.jpg)#7 Dame Josephine Weighted Average: 36.3% / Median: 33.3% / Standard Deviation: 31.0%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #10 (5x)

Dame Josephine aka the VP Knight has the highest deviation in this list. She was voted first once and 12 times in the Top 5 but still 5 times last on the other side.

Dame Josephine is one of the worst knights you can get if you go heavily on Knights especially if she is the Top Knight. She gives you no benefit all game and as she eventually gets trashed you lost the points. But later in the game she is in direct competition with Duchy. You get 1VP less and have the chance to play her and trash an opponents' Duchy what would her make worth 5VP. But on the other side you could get unlucky and hit an opponents' Knight so that you lost her and rather would have picked up a Duchy. So, picking her up is a bit of a gamble. You could decide not to play her in the end game, but then she should have been a Duchy. But if you play her, you have to hope for the best.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/18/Sir_Destry.jpg/200px-Sir_Destry.jpg)#6 Sir Destry Weighted Average: 54.2% / Median: 44.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.7%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (9x), #8 (1x)

Sir Destry aka the Draw Knight has a much higher rating than all previous knights. His rating is even above average although his rank is not. He was voted first once and is the first knight with no last rank, no not even a second last rank.

Sir Destry is one of the best additions into an engine when you can easily pick up cheap villages. If you're going BM you could also easily pick him up to slow your opponent a little bit down or as a defense against Knights as it's useful for you, but you also don't mind if you have to sacrifice him for another Knight.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/ad/Dame_Anna.jpg/200px-Dame_Anna.jpg)#5 Dame Anna Weighted Average: 58.5% / Median: 55.6% / Standard Deviation: 25.5%
Highest Value(s): #1 (2x), #2 (7x) / Lowest Value(s): #8 (3x), #9 (2x)

Dame Anna aka the Trasher Knight is slightly better than Sir Destry and has the second highest deviation of all Knights. She was voted first twice, but still has a lot of really low votes.

Dame Anna is one of the best Knights you can have as the Top Knight, especially if you're going for Knights. Thinning out the deck allows you to play your Knights very often which is great of course. She is no good Knight to pick up for defense as thinning out only allows your opponents' Knights to hit more often. But still, she is really situational. Also, if you get her in the mid-game the trashing is usually not that useful anymore.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/10/Dame_Molly.jpg/200px-Dame_Molly.jpg)#4 Dame Molly Weighted Average: 59.5% / Median: 66.7% / Standard Deviation: 20.2%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (6x), #8 (1x)

It was close. Dame Molly aka the village Knight is only 1pp better than Dame Anna. She was voted first once and has very few low votes.

Dame Molly is a great addition to an engine. As you have other villages already (otherwise you shouldn't for the engine of course) +2 Actions doesn't seem like a huge benefit, basically only a Necropolis, non-terminal attacks are very powerful as you can play her guaranteed unless you draw her dead. Also if you go heavily for Knights, it's not rare that Knights collide. The ability to play 3 Knights out of a 3 card hand is huge and shouldn't be underestimated.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c3/Dame_Sylvia.jpg/200px-Dame_Sylvia.jpg)#3 Dame Sylvia Weighted Average: 61.8% / Median: 55.6% / Standard Deviation: 20.8%
Highest Value(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (3x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x)

Ranks #3 to #6 were really close, less than 10pp difference. Dame Sylvia aka the terminal Silver Knight won that battle, but it could easily different the next time. She was voted first only once, but was only voted 5 times in the bottom 3.

Dame Sylvia is also very powerful to get early as she is probably best in picking up other Knights as she boosts your economy the most early. Later in the game she is probably worse than Sir Destry who gives you +2 Cards instead.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a6/Sir_Bailey.jpg/200px-Sir_Bailey.jpg)#2 Sir Bailey Weighted Average: 77.8% / Median: 77.8% / Standard Deviation: 24.7%
Highest Value(s): #1 (9x) / Lowest Value(s): #7 (1x), #9 (2x)

Sir Bailey aka the Cantrip Knight was voted way higher than all previous ones. He got 9 first ranks, but has still 2 votes on second last. So he has the third highest deviation.

As said before, non-terminal attacks are very strong and him being a cantrip makes him worth to pick up on many occasions as he doesn't hurt unless you draw it dead. The possibility to play 2 strong attacks (either another Knight or another strong attack) without the need of a village can be huge.
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/2/21/Sir_Michael.jpg/200px-Sir_Michael.jpg)#1 Sir Michael Weighted Average: 88.7% / Median: 100% / Standard Deviation: 21.2%
Highest Value(s): #1 (20x) / Lowest Value(s): #6 (2x), #9 (1x)

Sir Micheal aka the discarding Knight is clearly the best Knight. 20 out of 35 votes voted him first and he was voted only 3 times below average.

Sir Michael attacks twice which can really slow someone down. Trashing and discarding can set someone 2 turns back. If you manage to play only him each turn once, your opponent has really trouble. He alone may be the reason that your opponent picks up a Knight just to get rid of him.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Davio on June 19, 2013, 08:40:40 am
Okay, first things first: If you're going for Knights anyway, you probably don't care a lot which one is on top as you're going to get it anyway. You'd rather get one now than wait for your opponent to get a "bad" one and be stuck without $5 for a couple of turns. And of course they're good for defense as well.

Secondly, I would rate Dame Molly a bit higher since games can often turn into a real Knights battle. Being able to play 2 more Knights after Dame Molly is a pretty big deal.

Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: jsh357 on June 19, 2013, 09:19:58 am
Dame Sylvia is overrated.  That's about the only problem I have with this list.  I would certainly put her below Anna and Destry.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: GendoIkari on June 19, 2013, 09:35:37 am
I've only played with Knights a few times, so I'm far from knowledgable, but I'm really surprised to see Sir Michael at number 1, and agreed as such by most people apparently. It gives you absolutely no benefit to play it... Militia is a $4 card that has the same discarding attack, and gives you $2. Based on this, I wouldn't expect forcing your opponent to discard down to 3 to be worth so much.

I would have probably put Sylvia or Bailey at the top spot.

Molly and Martin are really hard to evaluate, because on some boards either one can be an extremely important card to get, but on other boards they will do basically nothing. I do think that Martin's $4 cost should have elevated it a bit higher.

I probably would have put Vander last... he also does absolutely nothing for you, and you have no way of knowing if he will ever be trashed. And I don't know why Natalie got last; there's plenty of boards where I would be glad to gain as many $3 cards as I can get for free.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: -Stef- on June 19, 2013, 12:11:26 pm
I don't agree with this list at all. Natalie #10?? I was considering that one for #1. With a lot of trashing going on I like Silvers. Not just because they're trashable, but because they quickly become better then my average card. And sometimes the board has something much better then a Silver.

Josephine is a clear #10 for me.
Vander is quite ok when knights are good.

for the rest it just depends too much on the board for this list to be meaningful.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Davio on June 19, 2013, 02:04:11 pm
Well, it is a bit of a silly list indeed.

As I said, if Knights fit into your strategy, any one of them will often do and you can get a lucky break with the one you happen to get. I don't often wait around for the good ones to show up and snag them while my opponent is getting bad ones. Even if he is getting bad ones, he is already playing them and trashing my cards.

I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: michaeljb on June 19, 2013, 02:28:41 pm
I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: achmed_sender on June 19, 2013, 03:44:22 pm
I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805

I suppose he meant the individual knights, so a pile of Sir Baileys or Sir Michaels would be way above 36th.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: LastFootnote on June 19, 2013, 03:55:51 pm
I wonder if Knights would be included as a normal $5 card, where it would end up in the rankings.

#36

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7836.msg225805#msg225805

I suppose he meant the individual knights, so a pile of Sir Baileys or Sir Michaels would be way above 36th.

That's also a good question, but Davio said "it", not "them", so I assume he was talking about the Knights pile as a whole.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Robz888 on June 19, 2013, 04:08:36 pm
Sir Draw is underrated here. Dame Victory should be last. Dame Actions should be better than Dame Coins.

Aww screw it. Here's my preferred list, from best to worst.

Sir Discard
Sir Drawer
Sir Cantrip
Dame Actions
Dame Trasher
Dame Terminal Silver
Dame Gainer
Sir Gold Gain
Sir Buys
Dame Victory Points
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Powerman on June 19, 2013, 04:12:53 pm
Sir Draw is underrated here. Dame Victory should be last. Dame Actions should be better than Dame Coins.

Aww screw it. Here's my preferred list, from best to worst.

Sir Discard
Sir Drawer
Sir Cantrip
Dame Actions
Dame Trasher
Dame Terminal Silver
Dame Gainer
Sir Gold Gain
Sir Buys
Dame Victory Points

Good list, I just switch Sir Buys with Sir Gold Gain.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: SirPeebles on June 19, 2013, 04:20:19 pm
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: clb on June 19, 2013, 04:26:29 pm
I think, in time, we will, but for now my laziness overwhelms my desire to honor the helpers. As I play with them more and learn their names better, I will switch over. But, I agree with your sentiment to honor those who helped out. That being said, we often don't bother to use Donald's name on these forums - DXV is all too common. Someone even converted that to Roman numerals and used the Arabis expression of it - 515 was it?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: brokoli on June 19, 2013, 05:26:26 pm
I think there are three categories of knights :
1) Those who are always useful (Silvia, Bailey, Molly)
2) Those who depends on the board or on the moment they appear (Anna, Michael, Josephine, Martin, Destry, Natalie)
3) Those who depends on the opponent and the number of knights he have (Josephine again, Vander)

I'm not sure about Michael. The discard attack is not so great, and the lack of direct bonus is quite bad.
Destry is often one of the best, in an engine board he is very strong. Without villages though, it's terrible.
The other are very close. I think however that Vander and Natalie are weaker than the rest.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: eHalcyon on June 19, 2013, 05:29:14 pm
If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Robz888 on June 19, 2013, 05:31:20 pm
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Because then people will have to look up which is which, and I didn't want to create more work for anyone.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: SirPeebles on June 19, 2013, 07:09:16 pm
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Because then people will have to look up which is which, and I didn't want to create more work for anyone.

This made sense last August when we were all chattering about the new cards.  Now they've been out for nearly a year.  If someone is still that confused, they probably should look it up. 
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ChocophileBenj on June 19, 2013, 07:21:04 pm
That's rare cards are referred to as "he"/"she" instead of "it" ^^

I didn't vote but was right in my head about the 2 best knights. Then I expected Molly (village) to be the 3rd... but of course, the money power can be dreadful... and Molly's village power is like necropolis (either only village so still good to grab but bad to build an engine, or useless with other villages around.) so I agree with it.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: brokoli on June 20, 2013, 03:59:30 am
If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 20, 2013, 08:21:53 am
I wish Dame Sylvia had a different vanilla effect so that the +$2 Knight was actually a bit of a Rogue.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: PitzerMike on June 20, 2013, 09:53:34 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: eHalcyon on June 20, 2013, 10:37:54 am
If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...

The point was that Sylvia isn't always useful. +cards and +coin are not so dissimilar, generally speaking. Either one could have the advantage.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Warfreak2 on June 20, 2013, 10:48:42 am
As your friendly neighbourhood sociopath, I like building Knights engines. Trashing, +Actions and +Cards are therefore what I want, because they enable playing multiple Knights per turn - Sir Michael is the strongest, though, because he slows the opponent down more than the other Knights, which gives you time to build.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: brokoli on June 20, 2013, 12:04:21 pm
I have just played a game with Natalie as the top knight (my opponent took it). I think I might have underrated this knight because it was much more resistant than I expected.

I wish Dame Sylvia had a different vanilla effect so that the +$2 Knight was actually a bit of a Rogue.
I thought like you seeing the first time the Dark Ages cards, but know I think they are completely different. The gain from the trash is very important for Rogue and completely changes the dynamic of the card.

Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.
Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.
Really ? Seriously I have no problems with the knights. I remember the name of all dominion cards and their effects, I don't see why it is so hard for Knights.

If Sylvia is always useful, so is Destry, really.
Not at drawing dead actions...

The point was that Sylvia isn't always useful. +cards and +coin are not so dissimilar, generally speaking. Either one could have the advantage.
Personally, I think of the +coin as something usually good, and the +card as something sometimes very good, sometimes very bad or risky.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: soulnet on June 20, 2013, 12:41:39 pm
Let me do a wild comparison of militia-knight to some other knight, lets say terminal-silver, because its easy.

If they have some other Kinght, lets consider +2$. They play it, so they have 2 cards an no Action remaining, but have +2$. That means in direct comparisson they have 2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) to buy something, and you have 4 Cards (selected out of 4). Which is better? Well, I would say most times the former is the better.

For buying a $5, $2 + 2/4 cards is great, you have a good shot at getting Silver+Copper here. 4/4 cards is much worse, especially since you've been investing your $5s on Knights.

For buying Gold they are about even, $2 + 2 Cards is kind of hard to get the first or even second gold, but 4/4 is really hard, although with its high variance you will eventually do it if the Knight trashing holds economies down for a while.

For buying Provinces, $2 + 2 Cards is probably better, as you "only" need to get two of those Golds, while 4/4 you need two Golds + a Silver or 2 Coppers. Also, by the time you are greening, discard down to 3 becomes not so problematic.

So, all in all, I don't see that militia-knight is as dominant as the ratings might suggest. Is there something completely off in this analysis?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 20, 2013, 03:45:21 pm
Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.

Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1. Molly can be critical for the actions and be able to play more knights. Bailey can always be played, so it deserves to be in the top 5. I would probably put Vander and Josephine in the bottom 2. Martin is often not great, but he costs $4 and if you can get an engine going and he is the only form of +Buy, he can make a huge difference. Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building. So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Stealth Tomato on June 20, 2013, 05:17:27 pm
Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.

Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1. Molly can be critical for the actions and be able to play more knights. Bailey can always be played, so it deserves to be in the top 5. I would probably put Vander and Josephine in the bottom 2. Martin is often not great, but he costs $4 and if you can get an engine going and he is the only form of +Buy, he can make a huge difference. Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building. So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.

The trashing Knight is highly situational. If you have important cards and are losing the Knight war, Anna just makes you an easier target--your stuff is going to disappear in a hurry. If you are winning the Knight war and there are engine possibilities, Anna is a great way to start pulling multi-Knight turns.

It's a rich-get-richer card that can turn small advantages into blowouts and small disadvantages into oops I pissed away the game. I'm not sure that puts it in competition for The Best; I'd rather have a card that is merely good both when I'm ahead and when I'm behind.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: brokoli on June 20, 2013, 06:17:35 pm
Josephine is without a doubt the last Knight.
I've already said that, but I think many people are missing a point : Dame Josephine is the only VP knight. When there is only two provinces, you always have the advantage of having that 2VP knight in your deck (at least if the actual province split is 3/3), which can be very important. With a card like harem, this is not quite the same because there is more than one.
Of course, Josephine can be trashed via another knight, but if the game doesn't turn out into a knight battle, Josephine is very good.

Quote
Discard is good and all, but I think the trashing Knight is often the best, especially on boards with no other cursing, and especially on boards with junking attacks. Today, I would probably rate that #1.
Anna is often the best when she is the top knight. But really, if it's a knight battle and it appear middle or end game, she is very weak.

Quote
Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building.
Natalie almost always gain silvers. I don't think that really contribute to the engine building...

Quote
So, maybe they deserve the top 3 spots, but then again, how often is a strong engine viable in a knights game. Not always. Then, I would put discard at 4, Destry at 5, and Bailey at 6 Sylvia would be 7, but the coin is pretty nice to have.
I think it's important to point that every game with knights is not a knight battle. I think Silvia is the most all-around useful knight, 7 is really too low. Bailey and Destry should be in the top 3 in my opinion...
I would consider Molly first, actually, because games with knights are likely to have many useful terminals.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: eHalcyon on June 20, 2013, 06:20:19 pm
Quote
Natalie, Anna, and Martin contribute the most to engine building.
Natalie almost always gain silvers. I don't think that really contribute to the engine building...

Plenty of engines have $2 and $3 components though.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ftl on June 20, 2013, 06:43:54 pm
cheap villages are often 3 or lower. Village, Hamlet, Fishing Village, Shanty Town, Native Village.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: PitzerMike on June 21, 2013, 03:25:00 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.
Indeed, it's not hard.
It's impossible to remember.
Really ? Seriously I have no problems with the knights. I remember the name of all dominion cards and their effects, I don't see why it is so hard for Knights.

Well for me it's like I can easily remember the normal cards because there's always a specific "thing" associated, like a profession, a building or whatever. Things that I can imagine and I can make a connection to its function with that.

For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ipofanes on June 21, 2013, 03:45:45 am
Quote
You get 1VP less and have the chance to play her and trash an opponents' Duchy what would her make worth 5VP.

... in a two player game.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Warfreak2 on June 21, 2013, 05:54:08 am
For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.
Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver

cheap villages are often 3 or lower. Village, Hamlet, Fishing Village, Shanty Town, Native Village.
And the more expensive ones are usually $4 or more.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: SCSN on June 21, 2013, 06:42:43 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate. I'm also curious as to what woman considers it a tribute that you can have her for as little as $5 and that she's usually trashed after only a few half-hearted uses.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ipofanes on June 21, 2013, 07:00:26 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Warfreak2 on June 21, 2013, 07:56:05 am
Strictly speaking, it's not $5, it's 5 coins. I don't think there is a bureau de change offering any rate on dominion coins, though I wouldn't put it past Goko.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: AJD on June 21, 2013, 07:56:23 am
I'm also curious as to what woman considers it a tribute that you can have her for as little as $5 and that she's usually trashed after only a few half-hearted uses.

'Can have for as little as $5; half-hearted uses' sounds like a Tribute to me.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on June 21, 2013, 09:14:41 am
Let me do a wild comparison of militia-knight to some other knight, lets say terminal-silver, because its easy.

If they have some other Kinght, lets consider +2$. They play it, so they have 2 cards an no Action remaining, but have +2$. That means in direct comparisson they have 2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) to buy something, and you have 4 Cards (selected out of 4). Which is better? Well, I would say most times the former is the better.

For buying a $5, $2 + 2/4 cards is great, you have a good shot at getting Silver+Copper here. 4/4 cards is much worse, especially since you've been investing your $5s on Knights.

For buying Gold they are about even, $2 + 2 Cards is kind of hard to get the first or even second gold, but 4/4 is really hard, although with its high variance you will eventually do it if the Knight trashing holds economies down for a while.

For buying Provinces, $2 + 2 Cards is probably better, as you "only" need to get two of those Golds, while 4/4 you need two Golds + a Silver or 2 Coppers. Also, by the time you are greening, discard down to 3 becomes not so problematic.

So, all in all, I don't see that militia-knight is as dominant as the ratings might suggest. Is there something completely off in this analysis?

There is something completely off in this analysis: many (most?) Dominion turns don't consist of just playing the terminal in your hand and then playing treasure and buying something. Engine games in particular require you to play multiples of specific cards, sometimes in a specific order (Village/Draw). Hand size attacks force engine builders to choose between discarding their draw or their payload (attack or big money producer). They are harmful to cards which need the junk you normally discard (Crossroads, Baron, Junk Dealer, Stables, Rats? etc.). They kill sifters like Warehouse, Cellar, Storeroom, Vault. Discard attacks slow you down a lot (absent Menagerie).

I also don't buy the general claim "2$ + 2 cards (selected out of 4) > 4 Cards (selected out of 4)" even in BM cases, but this could be close.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Tables on June 21, 2013, 10:58:35 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.


...
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ipofanes on June 23, 2013, 11:54:34 am
Why can't we just use their real names?  It isn't that hard.  Donald did this as a tribute to people who are important to him and helped him bring us this wonderful game.

I wonder though how Martin felt upon learning that DXV considers him a cheapskate.

Or Tables, for that matter.


...

Read that as "too busy buying his friends rounds over his finished exams".
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: blueblimp on June 24, 2013, 12:04:18 am
For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.
Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver
Huh, I've barely played with Dark Ages and didn't know these mnemonics. Here're some attempts at the others:

Natalie ~ -lie ~ -ry ~ Armory
Vander ~ Va- ~ Vault
Josephine ~ -hine ~ Hall ~ Great Hall
Destry ~ -y ~ Smithy
Anna ~ Ambassador
Molly ~ -ll- ~ Village
Bailey ~ Bail- ~ Pearl ~ Pearl Diver
Michael ~ Mi- ~ Militia
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: SirPeebles on June 24, 2013, 03:00:23 am
For the knights however - since I don't know the people behind them - those are just generic names. Totally interchangeable. I just can't make a connection.
Sir Martin = Sir Market
Dame Sylvia = Dame Silver
Huh, I've barely played with Dark Ages and didn't know these mnemonics. Here're some attempts at the others:

Natalie ~ -lie ~ -ry ~ Armory
Vander ~ Va- ~ Vault
Josephine ~ -hine ~ Hall ~ Great Hall
Destry ~ -y ~ Smithy
Anna ~ Ambassador
Molly ~ -ll- ~ Village
Bailey ~ Bail- ~ Pearl ~ Pearl Diver
Michael ~ Mi- ~ Militia

Natalie is like birth which is like gaining.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: AJD on July 02, 2013, 01:15:45 pm
It's interesting to note that most of the Knights' non-Knighting effects would be worth about $1 each on their own—the different Steward or Squire options, for instance. But Josephine, if she weren't a Knight, would still have to be about $2.5 since she's strictly better than Estate. So in a sense, Dame Josephine does give the best value for your money out of the $5 Knights. The problem is that the Knights appear in a random order, so you can't time your Josephine buy to the period of the game at which you can actually make the best use of that value, and that the 2VP and the Knight attack antisynergize to some extent.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Archetype on July 02, 2013, 01:32:05 pm
It's interesting to note that most of the Knights' non-Knighting effects would be worth about $1 each on their own—the different Steward or Squire options, for instance. But Josephine, if she weren't a Knight, would still have to be about $2.5 since she's strictly better than Estate. So in a sense, Dame Josephine does give the best value for your money out of the $5 Knights. The problem is that the Knights appear in a random order, so you can't time your Josephine buy to the period of the game at which you can actually make the best use of that value, and that the 2VP and the Knight attack antisynergize to some extent.
That really shows how effective a card is when paired with another effect.

+1 Action is a $1 effect. When you combine it with +2 Cards, it becomes a $5 card. When combined with +2$ it becomes a slightly less useful Silver (barring edgcases).

On the topic of Knights, my favorite is still Sir Cantrip even though his non-knight effect is valued at less than $2.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: GeronimoRex on July 03, 2013, 12:41:28 pm
We only recently got Dark Ages, and played our first game with Knights over the weekend... my wife started and opened $5/$2 with Sir Michael on top the top of the pile and Lighthouse as the preferred $2 card.

She got in 3-4 attacks with Michael early on that almost destroyed my economy (buy a silver, have it trashed) before I could build up enough Lighthouses to stay protected.

Turns out that having Lighthouse out in a Knights game quickly makes the Knights almost useless by around turn 9 or 10, when its almost guaranteed to have a Lighthouse always in play.

Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: ftl on July 03, 2013, 12:50:04 pm
With Lighthouse around, might not be so bad. Buy lighthouses instead of Silvers altogether! You can get away with that. Lighthouses are safe from knights and protect you, too.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: brokoli on July 03, 2013, 02:02:22 pm
Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.
Yes, it sometimes happens. I already had games where Anna were the top Knight and the only source of trashing in the kingdom... quite unfair. But knights are still interesting and well balanced : these cases tends to happen not often.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Voltaire on July 03, 2013, 03:26:58 pm
Eventually managed to recover the game thanks to Tactician, but having your opponent gain Sir Michael with the first buy of the game is pretty disheartening.
Yes, it sometimes happens. I already had games where Anna were the top Knight and the only source of trashing in the kingdom... quite unfair. But knights are still interesting and well balanced : these cases tends to happen not often.
I played a Kingdom where Sir Buy was the only +Buy and I got him, and still managed to lose horribly.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: mudshark56 on July 05, 2013, 06:01:00 pm
I have a lot of trouble remembering the names of the knights.  It's not the same as remembering the other kingdom cards, because all other things being equal, you'll only have the individual knight in your hand 1 time for every 10 times you have a regular kingdom card.  You'll only play it 1 out of 10, you'll only see it played by another player, etc.  You interact with the regular kingdom cards 10 times as much as you interact with an individual knight.  So maybe it takes 10 times as long to memorize?

I've played at least 10 and probably more like 20 games with knights, and when reading these posts, I had to keep looking up to the original ranking list to see which knight a poster was talking about.  Even after reading a whole page of posts, when I got to page 2 and I couldn't check the rankings, I was still at a loss for a lot of the knights.

I'm someone who is known for having a pretty good memory, but reading these posts was very cumbersome for me except for the people who used the "Sir Discard" style.  Theirs were the only posts I could just simply read and understand. 

Also, compared to most threads in this forum, there are a greater number of inexperienced players reading: I send the link to one of the rankings threads to anyone I teach Dominion, and they usually enjoy them.  Maybe it's mostly diehards posting, but I think there are novices reading, and I imagine they're having as much trouble as I did.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Tables on July 05, 2013, 06:33:31 pm
...So maybe it takes 10 times as long to memorize?

I'd say it's even longer. If you have 10 very different things, it's much easier to latch onto the differences and remember which is which. Say Witch, Remodel and Village. It takes people about two plays of Witch to learn that when someone shouts "Witch" you need to gain a curse, and you're not going to confuse them with Remodel or Village, and further you probably remember what they do pretty quickly. But with the Knights, you have 10 very similar names, and 10 similar effects, and you're seeing them 1/10th as often. That's gonna take you a lot longer to learn and memorise th different ones.

Right now, I haven't played that many games with knights, but I can tell you that the Dames are +$2 , +2 actions, gain a card costing up to $3, trash up to 2 cards and 2 VPs, the Sirs are +2 cards, +1 card, +1 action, +2 buys, Militia and trash for Gold. There's a Natalie (Actions?) and a Sylvia (+$2 or 2VPs?), and I think a Josephine, and a Martin (Buys), Vander (cards or milita). And that's all I can remeber off the top of my head. It's really hard to remember exactly which is which.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: dondon151 on July 05, 2013, 08:03:37 pm
and a Martin (Buys),

Of course you'd remember Martin. Time to change your avatar.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: SirPeebles on July 05, 2013, 08:16:06 pm
I have a lot of trouble remembering the names of the knights.  It's not the same as remembering the other kingdom cards, because all other things being equal, you'll only have the individual knight in your hand 1 time for every 10 times you have a regular kingdom card.  You'll only play it 1 out of 10, you'll only see it played by another player, etc.  You interact with the regular kingdom cards 10 times as much as you interact with an individual knight.  So maybe it takes 10 times as long to memorize?

I've played at least 10 and probably more like 20 games with knights, and when reading these posts, I had to keep looking up to the original ranking list to see which knight a poster was talking about.  Even after reading a whole page of posts, when I got to page 2 and I couldn't check the rankings, I was still at a loss for a lot of the knights.

I'm someone who is known for having a pretty good memory, but reading these posts was very cumbersome for me except for the people who used the "Sir Discard" style.  Theirs were the only posts I could just simply read and understand. 

Also, compared to most threads in this forum, there are a greater number of inexperienced players reading: I send the link to one of the rankings threads to anyone I teach Dominion, and they usually enjoy them.  Maybe it's mostly diehards posting, but I think there are novices reading, and I imagine they're having as much trouble as I did.

If you didn't know the names before, but now after reading this thread you've looked them up, then isn't that a good thing?  I remember reading these sorts of rankings and lists back when I first started playing Dominion -- before even getting all of the expansions -- and I just looked cards up when I didn't know them.  That's how you learn, right?  It's a good thing?
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: Tables on July 05, 2013, 10:47:11 pm
and a Martin (Buys),

Of course you'd remember Martin. Time to change your avatar.

Don't be silly. Sir Martin is best Sir. And besides, Sir Martin looks a bit like me (same beard mostly), and I'm a Martin, so... I'll stick with this, thanks.
Title: Re: The Dominion Cards Lists 2013 Edition: Knights
Post by: markusin on July 06, 2013, 10:57:03 am
It's even harder to remember them all off the top of your head. If you mention a knight's name, I'll know exactly which knight is being referred to, but if yopu asked me to name the ten knights I might fall short. Yesterday I forgot the name of the Gainer knight, Dame Natalie. Today, I forgot the name of the cantrip knight, Sir Bailey.