Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Matt_Arnold on October 22, 2011, 02:02:45 am

Title: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Matt_Arnold on October 22, 2011, 02:02:45 am
"The Tunnel reaction seems excessively situational." Thus sayeth some of my compatriots at game night. Oh, not so, my friend.

Cards that can discard from your hand:
Cellar
Secret Chamber
Warehouse
Tactician
Hamlet
Horse Traders
Young Witch
Embassy
Inn
Oasis

Cards that can discard from your opponents' hand:
Militia
Minion
Torturer
Goons
Followers
Margrave

Cards that can discard from your deck:
Spy
Library
Adventurer
Lookout
Navigator
Envoy
Scrying Pool
Golem
Loan
Venture
Farming Village
Harvest
Hunting Party
Cartographer
Duchess
Jack of All Trades
Oracle

Cards that can discard from your opponents' deck:
Pirate Ship
Spy
Thief
Tribute
Sea Hag
Scrying Pool
Jester
Duchess
Noble Brigand
Oracle

I guess Saboteur, if Bridge has been played?

<Edited: Thanks for reminding me of Pirate Ship!>
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Jimmmmm on October 22, 2011, 02:23:49 am
An excellent retort to your compatriots would be "Tunnel is a good card even without the reaction." Tunnel can change the game in that especially if you start buying them they can make discard attacks less of a no-brainer. Like, do you really want to get a Militia if it's just going to feed Golds to your opponent?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: guided on October 22, 2011, 07:58:07 am
I think Tunnel's best common use case (other than as a workaday endgame VP card - $3 for 2 VPs is quite good if you don't make it to $5 for a Duchy) is probably defending against discard attacks. Now I've never thought it looked "extremely situational" at all, since there are so many ways to discard cards, but having played around with it a bit... I must say that it is so slow at actually getting Gold into your hand (while clogging your deck in the meantime) that it's quite difficult to find Tunnel strategies that are strong while relying on discarding it during your own turn to produce Gold. I posted on BGG that I felt after some experience that $3 is just the right price for it, given how much time and effort is required to finally convert a Tunnel into one or more Golds in hand.

I believe there can be strong strategies that involve discarding Tunnels on your turn using other action cards (maybe especially if Crossroads is involved?), but they are much less common than I expected they might be when I first saw the card.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Mean Mr Mustard on October 22, 2011, 09:10:34 am
I'd say that the majority of proactive Tunnel strategies are rather slow.  If you have played enough Hoard games you realize, though it is a strong card and often useful, that Hoard can actually slow down VP acquisition by the tune of -$1, at least initially.  The Gold you gain goes into the discard, which is about the worst place it can be.  Tunnel is a dead card in hand, even with a way to discard it; is not worth even the $2 that Hoard provides.

So, it requires more than one activation of each Tunnel to gain a measurable improvement of deck economy.  The first Gold gained average out to $1.5 value added to the deck, less than a Silver.  The second Gold improves the average to $2: two Golds + Tunnel = $6/3, a Silver.  You can also add the 2VP as a measurement to the value, for what it is worth, and that 2 Gold + Tunnel may be better than 3 Silver at getting to $8 hands. 

As far as specific proactive strategies, my opinion is that Embassy is about the best one.  It cycles like mad and Tunnel is a perfect discard.  Virtually every activation of Embassy improves the buying power of the deck and the buying power of the hand that it is played in.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Elyv on October 22, 2011, 12:33:18 pm
I really, really like tunnel/warehouse, since the warehouse is cheap and cycles fairly quickly. The first time I ever played with Tunnel, it was a game with both warehouse and lookout, and there were only 6 gold left in the gold pile at the end of the game.

On an unrelated note, vault can also allow you to discard tunnel from your hand and library can't make you discard it from your deck.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: philosophyguy on October 22, 2011, 01:27:40 pm
How late in the game should you be still willing to use Tunnel's reaction ability? I'm guessing it's similar to the Gold-versus-Duchy decision in terms of timing (more than one shuffle = Gold; less than one shuffle = Duchy; exactly 1 shuffle depends on your and luck), but I'm not certain. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: ehunt on October 22, 2011, 02:15:44 pm
@philosophyguy - Wouldn't you always use the ability? (Unless you're in some pretty special circumstances, like a minion deck, in which case, why did you buy tunnel?) It doesn't trade off with anything.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: philosophyguy on October 22, 2011, 02:32:47 pm
My bad; I thought Tunnel's reaction required you to trash Tunnel for some reason. No wonder I've been doing so badly in Tunnel games.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: ehunt on October 22, 2011, 03:11:41 pm
Actually, immediately after writing this, I got devastated by someone going minion/tunnel.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: guided on October 22, 2011, 03:40:18 pm
I've still never seen Embassy on a board. I've seen most of the other Hinterlands cards several times though. That does strike me as a pretty good combo with Tunnel.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Biderman on October 22, 2011, 03:46:26 pm
Actually, immediately after writing this, I got devastated by someone going minion/tunnel.

This sounds like the best stratagy to me, as Minion allows for a very fast reshuffle rate to take advantage of the Golds, as well as a high likelyhood of being able to discard tunnels. Golem would be completely evil in a deck with only Tunnel, money, and VPs...
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on October 23, 2011, 03:02:39 pm
Minion's fine with Tunnel as long as you don't expect to end up with a conventional Minion deck. Use your (and you opponents') Minions to get through your Tunnels, then use Gold for your buying power. You probably don't even mind letting your opponent(s) get the majority of the Minions if you're going Tunnels.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: ehunt on October 23, 2011, 03:59:11 pm
Rules clarification - is there an official ruling that "put[ting] your deck in your discard pile" with chancellor is not the same thing as discarding it?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on October 23, 2011, 04:32:46 pm
Rules clarification - is there an official ruling that "put[ting] your deck in your discard pile" with chancellor is not the same thing as discarding it?
Yes, there is.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Matt_Arnold on October 23, 2011, 08:40:35 pm
having played around with it a bit... I must say that it is so slow at actually getting Gold into your hand (while clogging your deck in the meantime) that it's quite difficult to find Tunnel strategies that are strong while relying on discarding it during your own turn to produce Gold.
I don't understand. I've never heard anyone complain when they end their turn with $6 in hand and buy a Gold. It's considered the second-best turn you can have (on most boards). But it goes into their discard pile just the same. If you discard one Tunnel, gain a Gold, and have a hand that can't buy anything, how is that worse? Or more clogged? Or slower?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: biopower on October 23, 2011, 09:30:26 pm
I don't understand. I've never heard anyone complain when they end their turn with $6 in hand and buy a Gold. It's considered the second-best turn you can have (on most boards). But it goes into their discard pile just the same. If you discard one Tunnel, gain a Gold, and have a hand that can't buy anything, how is that worse? Or more clogged? Or slower?
You have to match the discarding action to Tunnel in the hand to get the Gold. Unless there are a lot of discarding actions or a single really good one (militia/warehouse), matching them up is almost like Treasure Maps. In the meanwhile, the deck is more clogged (there's more green in your deck until you hit), and you get less benefit than from Maps.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Nitsuj on October 24, 2011, 10:52:51 am
I've combo'd Minion and Tunnels like 2 time so far, and once with Oasis/Inn.  I really liked it early, and was cruising with what felt like a gazillion gold pretty quick, but can see how it clogs up a bit. However, clogged up with 8 to 10 VP is a nice spot to be in, because now you realistically have to get 3 provinces to have a good chance to win - or your opponent clogs their deck up and its a non-issue.

I don't think its awful, but the one game my opponent used MINT and was getting just as many golds but was able to use the one in his hand, unlike me who had to play a 4 card hand (essentially) to get a gold for the future.  With that epiphany I decided that tunnel isn't really great.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on October 24, 2011, 10:55:01 am
I don't think its awful, but the one game my opponent used MINT and was getting just as many golds but was able to use the one in his hand, unlike me who had to play a 4 card hand (essentially) to get a gold for the future.  With that epiphany I decided that tunnel isn't really great.

Every turn you Tunneled a Gold, you played a 4 card hand. Every time he Minted a Gold, he played a 4 card hand.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: biopower on October 24, 2011, 12:15:19 pm
Every turn you Tunneled a Gold, you played a 4 card hand. Every time he Minted a Gold, he played a 4 card hand.

He played a 4 card hand with Gold in it, as opposed to a hand without.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on October 24, 2011, 12:21:36 pm
Every turn you Tunneled a Gold, you played a 4 card hand. Every time he Minted a Gold, he played a 4 card hand.

He played a 4 card hand with Gold in it, as opposed to a hand without.

There's nothing saying the Tunnel hands didn't have a Gold in them. In fact I'd suggest that they did just as often as the Mint hands, since they were both producing Gold at a similar rate (or at least have the potential to). Everytime the Mint deck drew Mint without Gold, they played a 4 card hand and didn't produce a new Gold.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Epoch on October 24, 2011, 01:15:02 pm
My conclusion about buying Tunnels with the intent to discard them yourself: it's better than pure Big Money, but it's by no means a stellar, unbeatable strategy.  It's shocking how much the Tunnels hurt your buying power until quite late in the game.

Mint versus Tunnel: Of course, the deal with Mint is that hopefully you trashed at least 4 Copper with it, and the power of Mint is drastically increased in a thin deck, where it is likely to coincide with Gold (and your hand is not as badly hurt by the Mint card, because it's a thin, powerful deck).
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Matt_Arnold on October 25, 2011, 10:12:11 pm
I just played a game with a Mint/Cellar/Tunnel strategy. I got 5 on the first turn and bought Mint to trash it; bought a Cellar on turn 2. Third and fourth turns, Mint a Copper. Then I spent 3 Coppers on a Tunnel, which I started Cellaring a lot because I hardly had anything in my deck.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/25/game-20111025-190530-a84d4630.html

Still didn't win though. It was slower than I expected.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: ImperialStout on October 25, 2011, 10:27:15 pm
At this point, it seems that most viable Tunnel->Gold strategies will be those that rely on discarding cards later in the deck rather than in the hand.  The opportunity cost to having Tunnels in a deck with Navigator/Cartographer is relatively low (you are using a discard slot on a card that otherwise would not be in the deck, and occasionally pulling the card in your hand) whereas the opportunity cost to having Tunnels in a discard from hand deck is far higher because of the aforementioned fact that you are effectively limiting yourself to a 4 (or potentially 3 if you would not otherwise have purchased a cellar or secret chamber) hand. 

Note that this does not hold for decks where your purchase of the discard from hand card is not contingent on you executing a Tunnel->Gold strategy.  Obvious examples are Minion where you were not trashing down to a pure Minion deck, and Vault. 
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Anon79 on October 26, 2011, 12:56:53 am
I just played a game with a Mint/Cellar/Tunnel strategy. I got 5 on the first turn and bought Mint to trash it; bought a Cellar on turn 2. Third and fourth turns, Mint a Copper. Then I spent 3 Coppers on a Tunnel, which I started Cellaring a lot because I hardly had anything in my deck.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/25/game-20111025-190530-a84d4630.html

Still didn't win though. It was slower than I expected.
What about opening Tunnel/Cellar?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Kuildeous on October 26, 2011, 08:55:08 am
What about opening Tunnel/Cellar?

I'd have to say this sounds more appealing. If Tunnel only cost $2, I'd say that a Mint/Cellar opening could be awesome.

But, in general, I do not buy a Mint in the first two hands unless there is a card that can actually help me get up to $3 or $4. Embargo and Secret Chamber are the only ones I'd consider pairing with Mint. And even Embargo has its risks.

Using Mint to trash 5 Coppers only to buy back one or two is probably the greater handicap.

Although, if Tunnel was out there, I'd gladly open Mint/Secret Chamber.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Jimmmmm on October 26, 2011, 09:05:27 am
Just while we're on Mint openings, how do you feel about Mandarin/Mint?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Tonks77 on October 26, 2011, 09:11:57 am

But, in general, I do not buy a Mint in the first two hands unless there is a card that can actually help me get up to $3 or $4. Embargo and Secret Chamber are the only ones I'd consider pairing with Mint. And even Embargo has its risks.

Ever tried Mint + Fool's Gold with a 5-2 start? And surely Mandarin - Mint - FG should also be nice.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Elysium on October 26, 2011, 09:16:38 am
OP forgot Pirate Ship
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Epoch on October 26, 2011, 12:17:20 pm
And surely Mandarin - Mint - FG should also be nice.

Mandarin - Mint is maybe the first combo I've heard that makes me think that Mandarin might have some kind of purpose.  So, you know, kudos.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Geronimoo on October 26, 2011, 01:43:04 pm
Mint/FG gets 4 Provinces in 12.4 turns which is very very fast (should beat any deck that doesn't hand out curses). Starting with Mandarin delays that by a turn.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Fangz on October 26, 2011, 02:14:39 pm
If you are going for a fool's gold strategy, though, it's likely that the other player will be getting FG as well. If you are down to only 5 FG, having a mandarin to shuffle singleton FGs to the next hand and get $3 is pretty useful.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: rinkworks on October 26, 2011, 02:21:42 pm
That makes sense to me.  But mightn't it be better not to get the Mandarin until after the Fool's Golds are gone?  If it's a race, you probably need every turn you can get.  An early Mandarin might mean a 4-6 split of Fool's Golds against you, or a 5-5 when you could have had 6-4.

After the Fool's Golds are gone, I can see how a well-timed Mandarin might be nice for connecting them together, though a Courtyard, Cellar, Warehouse, Cartographer, or Council Room might be just as good, if available.

I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Epoch on October 26, 2011, 02:30:27 pm
I don't think that Mandarin/Mint/FG makes a lot of sense -- as people mention, Mint/FG is fine as it is, and anyway it's a 3 card combo that only works with a 5/2 split.  So, srsly, who cares?

But just Mandarin/Mint has something going for it, and it's vastly more likely than the three card combo.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: chwhite on October 26, 2011, 02:33:00 pm
I'm really struggling to figure out what situations are uniquely ideal for Mandarin, but maybe that's a topic better suited to a new thread.

You are playing a tight, heavily-greened treasure deck, it's near the end of the game, and you have $5 in your hand, so you buy a Mandarin and hope it increases your chance at the last Province next turn.

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Far as I can tell, that's pretty much it.  Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Copernicus on October 26, 2011, 02:36:48 pm
Mandarin - Mint is maybe the first combo I've heard that makes me think that Mandarin might have some kind of purpose.  So, you know, kudos.

Buying a Mandarin over a Duchy in order to try for a Province next turn is also useful.  There's also Tactician with $13 to $15 -> Province/Mandarin -> Province next turn -> Duchy/$5 the following turn.

-----------

For Tunnel and self-discard, I've had poor games with trying to get it going on anything that is discard from the top of my deck or 1-2 discard from my hand.  I also was destroyed by an opponent going Village/Goons/Margrave.

I think in terms of self-use, Tunnel needs to be discard 3+ from hand or 5+ from the deck.  For defense, it needs to be evaluated as what it is first -- I'm not going to grab it to fight against a Militia or Goons unless I'm already at the stage of the game where victory points are useful.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: DG on October 26, 2011, 03:11:42 pm
Quote
Mandarin just sucks, and I'm quite comfortable calling it the fourth worst $5 card, better than Explorer, Saboteur, and Stash, with Counting House to round out the bottom 5.

[/size]
[/size]I'm usually quite sympathetic to the various cards and I think stash, saboteur, and explorer are perfectly fine in their place. Even the counting house does its job when it rarely needs to do it. I'm having a hard time spotting when the mandarin would be an excellent card, and even when it seems a decent idea the window of opportunity seems particularly small.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Amaranth on October 26, 2011, 03:57:48 pm

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Actually, Mandarin would let you stack your extra Scrying Pools on top of your deck, making sure you open your next turn with a Scrying Pool in hand. So in that regard it would be better than other +coin actions that don't give +action.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: chwhite on October 26, 2011, 04:13:31 pm

Or you're going super-heavy Scrying Pool+Village and have cleared out all your treasures and there's no better option for getting cash from Actions, like Harvest or Merchant Ship.  And in that case you take Mandarin not because it's uniquely good, but because it fills a needed niche worse than other cards that aren't there.

Actually, Mandarin would let you stack your extra Scrying Pools on top of your deck, making sure you open your next turn with a Scrying Pool in hand. So in that regard it would be better than other +coin actions that don't give +action.

Ooh, good point.  The trick of course is finding a way to buy it without slowing you down by top-decking your Treasures, so perhaps it's best as a supplement to other income sources in a Scrying Pool deck.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: rrenaud on October 26, 2011, 04:26:56 pm
I also like Mandarin in tournament games.  It serves as a pseudo haven for comboing the tournament and the province, and the early access to +3 (assuming you can chuck an estate back) let's you get an early province.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Qvist on October 29, 2011, 09:03:13 am
Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.
With a 3/4 start open Tunnel and a Card that get you to 5 quickly.
With a 5/2 start open Vault.
Then buy Tunnel with 3/4 and Vault with 5/6/7
Every time discard Tunnel to get a Gold.
Every time you have a Vault and Gold in hand you can buy a Province.

Here I have 8 Provinces and 4 Tunnels in 18 turns in a single player game which - I think - is pretty impressive.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/29/game-20111029-055241-19fd30f1.html

What do you think?
Anybody wants to simulate that?
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Geronimoo on October 29, 2011, 10:29:11 am
Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.
What do you think?
Anybody wants to simulate that?
It seems great if you open $5/$2, but it will probably be beaten if you open $4/$3.
The Tunnel/Silver buy is also wrong. You should open Silver/Silver then get Tunnels after you have a Vault.
Code: [Select]
<player name="Tunnel/Vault" author="Geronimoo" description="Qvist's strategy from the forum:XXXXWith a 3/4 start open Tunnel and a Card that get you to 5 quickly --->>> this bot opens Silver/Silver because it's much betterXXXXWith a 5/2 start open Vault.XXXXThen buy Tunnel with 3/4 and Vault with 5/6/7XXXXEvery time discard Tunnel to get a Gold.XXXXEvery time you have a Vault and Gold in hand you can buy a Province.">
 <type name="Competitive"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Combo"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="5.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="equalTo" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Vault">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Tunnel"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Tunnel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Vault"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="0.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: glasser on October 29, 2011, 01:55:21 pm
Hi. I think Vault/Tunnel is a great combo.

It's nice, but don't forget that every time you play Vault, your opponent can discard a Tunnel or two for Gold.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: LastFootnote on November 02, 2011, 04:05:22 pm
It seems to me that Hinterlands has a large number of cards that you don't want to open with, but can be useful after your first or second shuffle. Tunnel is one example. If you buy it right away, it's going to hurt your economy too much.

I'd think twice before opening with Develop, Scheme, Tunnel, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Cartographer, Embassy, Haggler, Highway, Inn, or Mandarin. I wouldn't buy Duchess, period.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Taco Lobster on November 08, 2011, 07:39:05 pm
I've had a similar experience as most of the rest of you with Tunnel - it seems neat, but it's often way too slow.  In fact, I played a game this afternoon with Chapel, Tunnel, and Goons on the board.  My opponent hit his $6 before I did, and Goons'd away two $6 hands from me while acquiring another one for his deck.  I finally started catching up on Goons and he began loading his deck up with Tunnels.  I was a bit worried at first, but whereas he ended up with a massively clogged deck as he wasted $6 turns on buying 2 Tunnels, I kept a tight, trimmed, Goons deck that worked its way up to the 3+ VP/turns and then dominated the game.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: chesskidnate on November 08, 2011, 09:59:28 pm
It seems to me that Hinterlands has a large number of cards that you don't want to open with, but can be useful after your first or second shuffle. Tunnel is one example. If you buy it right away, it's going to hurt your economy too much.

I'd think twice before opening with Develop, Scheme, Tunnel, Noble Brigand, Spice Merchant, Cartographer, Embassy, Haggler, Highway, Inn, or Mandarin. I wouldn't buy Duchess, period.
I think that duchess is probably a necessary opener on many boards for 5/2(are you going to pass up duchess/laboratory in favor of just lab/-?)
Also, as to Develop, it is a bit questionable and probably is bad if you draw it after your 4 buy but it certainly can get good if you draw them both and trash the four card for a develop+ $5 card, and then trash the $5 for a $4 and a 6$(gold?), at least when you have a good engine to go for. Additionally, highway doesn't seem to deserve being on this list, except for the fact that you may be passing up a better five. It's opening prospects are about that of market, you'd probably prefer something else but it's at least decent
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Davio on November 09, 2011, 05:32:27 am
I've had a similar experience as most of the rest of you with Tunnel - it seems neat, but it's often way too slow.  In fact, I played a game this afternoon with Chapel, Tunnel, and Goons on the board.  My opponent hit his $6 before I did, and Goons'd away two $6 hands from me while acquiring another one for his deck.  I finally started catching up on Goons and he began loading his deck up with Tunnels.  I was a bit worried at first, but whereas he ended up with a massively clogged deck as he wasted $6 turns on buying 2 Tunnels, I kept a tight, trimmed, Goons deck that worked its way up to the 3+ VP/turns and then dominated the game.
Tunnel depends heavily on correct timing.

If you play it with Embassy, it's awesome because it's almost impossible to miss the Tunnel in your 9 card hand. With Warehouse, it's still okay, because you have 7 cards before the discard.

Using the Tunnel for its defensive purposes is a lot harder, because two things have to happen at the same time. Your opponent has to play a discarding attack AND you have to have it in your hand. As we learned from Moat, it's rarely useful in 2p games, precisely of this timing coincidence that you need. With 4 players, it's obviously a lot more worthwhile as Reaction cards are often better with more players, due to the increased chances that you'll be attacked at least once in a round.

So, waiting for your opponent to activate your own Tunnel is foolish business. You are often much better off triggering it yourself. Embassy and Warehouse are clearly good choices, but something like a sneaky Golem (and at most one other action card) already suffers from very hefty opportunity costs.

Maybe the one attack card worth defending with Tunnel with is Torturer, because of the pin that players like to play with it. But then you have to ask yourself if you really want to be the one suffering from the pin or the one applying it. I think the latter, because you don't need much excess Golds if you're able to draw most of your deck anyway.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Tonks77 on November 09, 2011, 05:44:30 am
IMHO Tunnel is best if you manage to discard it without getting it into your hand. I had some nice games with cartographer, and I suspect it to be awesome with venture and adventurer, which allow you to dig for all the gold while producing new golds by discarding the tunnels.

With Golem the problem is, that you produce gold by discarding the tunnels but fail to get the gold in hand at least with the Golem alone.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 09, 2011, 09:40:34 am
I found this interesting. According to Council Room, Young Witch / Tunnel is an amazing opening. Well okay, 23rd best, but once its error steadies out it looks like it will be in the top 15.

Okay so it's obvious why it's such a good opener. You use the YW to discard the Tunnel to get you Golds. But it's just so much better than any other Tunnel opening (http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Tunnel) and any other Young Witch opening (http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Young+Witch).
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Geronimoo on November 09, 2011, 10:28:17 am
YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: greatexpectations on November 09, 2011, 10:45:57 am
YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)

what play rules do you recommend for this?  single tunnel and single young witch?  i've only played one game with the combo (my first game with it, back during the week tunnel came out) but i ended up with a few of each and i think i made a mess of it.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: mDuo13 on November 10, 2011, 05:59:05 pm
YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)

what play rules do you recommend for this?  single tunnel and single young witch?  i've only played one game with the combo (my first game with it, back during the week tunnel came out) but i ended up with a few of each and i think i made a mess of it.

You know, that would explain a lot. The first couple games I played with Tunnel both had YW, and I thought they were being dominated by the Tunnel, but then I found that many other combinations that *could* activate the Tunnel tend not to do so fast enough... yeah. Some decent Tunnel enablers I've seen are Cartographer, Oracle (one of its few notable points), and Warehouse, but it seems like all of them pale in comparison to YW. The YW's filter effect helps you dig to the golds you're gaining by discarding the Tunnels, and the cursing makes it much harder for your opponents to counterattack... It's a doozie alright.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Geronimoo on November 11, 2011, 04:26:55 am
I added a default bot to the simulator: Tunnel/Young Witch. I tweaked it a little and buying X Tunnels and X+1 Young Witches works great.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: DStu on November 11, 2011, 07:48:22 am
YW/Tunnel is quite insane. Simulating this beats just about anything (but I noticed a little bug that excess terminal actions are discarded before the tunnel)

what play rules do you recommend for this?  single tunnel and single young witch?  i've only played one game with the combo (my first game with it, back during the week tunnel came out) but i ended up with a few of each and i think i made a mess of it.

You know, that would explain a lot. The first couple games I played with Tunnel both had YW, and I thought they were being dominated by the Tunnel, but then I found that many other combinations that *could* activate the Tunnel tend not to do so fast enough... yeah. Some decent Tunnel enablers I've seen are Cartographer, Oracle (one of its few notable points), and Warehouse, but it seems like all of them pale in comparison to YW. The YW's filter effect helps you dig to the golds you're gaining by discarding the Tunnels, and the cursing makes it much harder for your opponents to counterattack... It's a doozie alright.

And of course the curser slows the game and makes Gold a much harder target than usually, so when you get them for free by the tunnels that will help you a lot...
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Rabid on November 12, 2011, 05:57:32 pm
Just played a game with tunnel + adventurer  + steward + festival.
Not sure how good the combo is but was very fun :)
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: Jimmmmm on November 12, 2011, 06:19:58 pm
I still have trouble associating Tunnels with diggers/hunters. When you bought your first Adventurer I was wondering why, given you didn't even have a Gold yet. Then you bought a Tunnel, and I was like, "Oh."
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: guided on November 13, 2011, 10:26:24 am
I had a game recently where Tunnel was the Bane card for Young Witch. It was... completely scripted. One of those rare instances where I really wished I was 2nd player so that the other guy (20 levels below me) wouldn't have the opportunity to mirror me upon realizing how completely obvious my opening Tunnel buy was. Though on the plus side I did still win (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-141547-05a198fb.html) ;)
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: olneyce on November 13, 2011, 12:35:38 pm
I had a game recently where Tunnel was the Bane card for Young Witch. It was... completely scripted. One of those rare instances where I really wished I was 2nd player so that the other guy (20 levels below me) wouldn't have the opportunity to mirror me upon realizing how completely obvious my opening Tunnel buy was. Though on the plus side I did still win (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-141547-05a198fb.html) ;)
That's pretty bad luck for you opponent.  Through 9 turns, you've done basically the exact same thing and have almost identical decks, except you've got 6 more golds.
Title: Re: Cards That Combo With Tunnel Reaction
Post by: guided on November 13, 2011, 01:28:56 pm
I had a game recently where Tunnel was the Bane card for Young Witch. It was... completely scripted. One of those rare instances where I really wished I was 2nd player so that the other guy (20 levels below me) wouldn't have the opportunity to mirror me upon realizing how completely obvious my opening Tunnel buy was. Though on the plus side I did still win (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111111-141547-05a198fb.html) ;)
That's pretty bad luck for you opponent.  Through 9 turns, you've done basically the exact same thing and have almost identical decks, except you've got 6 more golds.
Yep. Total mirror match (modulo minor stuff like Caravan and Pawn) since there was simply no other conceivable way to go other than YW/Tunnel. When both players are doing the same thing it comes down to luck.