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Archive => Archive => Dominion: Guilds Previews => Topic started by: SuperHans on June 15, 2013, 03:30:15 pm

Title: Merchant Guild
Post by: SuperHans on June 15, 2013, 03:30:15 pm
Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.
While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.

There seems to be a general consensus that you cannot use the coin tokens earned from a Merchant Guild until the next turn. This seems contrary to the text of the card. According to the text of the card, you earn the coin tokens immediately after purchasing a card. This would mean that you can use the earned coin tokens on a subsequent purchase that very same turn. Could someone on Goko confirm or deny this?

If true, this would lead to some interesting scenarios.

Example #1: Let's say you had three merchant guilds in play.  If you purchased a card, you would then receive three coin tokens.  For your second buy, you could then spend those three coin tokens on a silver and receive three more coin tokens. You can then rinse and repeat until you run out of buys.

Example #2: Let's say you had five merchant guilds in play and five market squares in play. You now have +11 buys. Every time you purchase a card you receive five coin tokens. Hypothetically, you could drain all ten cards from a $5 supply.


After this issue is resolved, let's just maintain this thread as a general discussion for the card since there seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions about Merchant Guild's strength and utility.

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't see that the rules had been posted.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 15, 2013, 03:34:47 pm
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Schneau on June 15, 2013, 03:39:28 pm
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).

This, and it explicitly says so in the rules (http://riograndegames.com/Game/1265-Dominion-Guilds).
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: LastFootnote on June 15, 2013, 05:18:53 pm
After playing a couple of games with Merchant Guild, I think it's sort of a chicken-and egg card. You want to buy several good cards with Merchant Guild in play so that you get more Coin tokens without diluting your deck with crap. But since Merchant Guild only gives you $1, you have to get that money elsewhere. Where? Coin tokens. Coin tokens like the ones you get from Merchant Guild.

Hence, it seems Merchant Guild strongly benefits from having a decent number of Coin tokens and therefore combos with other cards that produce Coin tokens. That way you can save the tokens to spend them when you have Merchant Guild in play, netting you a big Coin token rebate while buying good cards.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Emeric on June 15, 2013, 07:17:42 pm
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?

Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Tables on June 15, 2013, 07:19:51 pm
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?



No, because you can't spend tokens this turn. You spend tokens like you play treasures, before buying anything to add to your pool of money.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Watno on June 15, 2013, 07:20:39 pm
You pay overpaying from the $ you have already got from playing cards or using coin tokens before buying a card. You caN't play more $ after you buy a card, not even to overpay.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Just a Rube on June 15, 2013, 07:23:16 pm
It's very clear that you cannot spend the tokens on the same turn, not because of Merchant Guild, but because of the general rules on coin tokens: like treasures, you must play them BEFORE making any buys in the turn; after a buy is made, you re no longer in the part of the buy phase in which you are allowed to play coin tokens (or treasures).
You cannot spend the tokens in the same turn to buy another card, but may you use this coin to overpay a doctor (or another overpayable card) ?
Only if you spent it while you were playing treasures.
Conceptually, I think of a coin token as another treasure, like any other, that stays out of your deck and goes away on use. Thus, you "play" it at the same time as you play your coppers, silvers, etc. They all give you money, and that is what you spend to buy/overpay. Whether the money came from a coin token or a treasure makes no difference, just like the game doesn't care if that $8 you spend for a province came from 8 coppers, 6 coppers and a silver or playing 8 markets. It's all money by the time you buy things.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 18, 2013, 11:07:15 am
I think the fact that it really doesn't boost the economy of your current turn the most interesting thing about this card. Without that it would just be a better bridge.

I still think this card could have been $4, but maybe it's super broken in situations where you buy lots of cards. Quarry+Worker's Village would make this card essential.

Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Schlippy on June 18, 2013, 11:31:21 am
Like with Goons, Watchtower and cheap spamable cards are pretty good combos.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: werothegreat on June 18, 2013, 11:40:27 am
Like with Goons, Watchtower and cheap spamable cards are pretty good combos.

You don't even need Watchtower with MG - just lots of Buys.  Once you've had a great turn or two with MG, you'll have enough Coin tokens to get all the Provinces in the next couple turns, no matter how crappy your hands are.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: jonts26 on June 18, 2013, 12:00:16 pm
I haven't played with this card yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but I feel like people are viewing this card wrong. Other people have discussed the strengths of coin tokens in general, and while this card can generate an obscene amount with the right deck, I think it will be much more useful as a support card, not the payoff card, though it will shine as the payoff every once in a while. Adding a handful of tokens over the course of the game offers an incredible amount of flexibility.

This is of course a card which screams engine. And it gives one crucial engine piece with +buy, though it's a bit pricey. Still, engines usually only need a couple cards with +buy, unlike other vanilla bonuses, so even one or two MG's will be helpful. And of course the coin tokens usefulness is delayed one turn, but with a steady stream of them coming in, it shouldn't be too big of a deal. And in a decent engine, you are usually buying multiple cards per turn anyway, not counting any extra buys you could use on coppers. With 2 MG's buying 3 cards per turn thats 6 coin tokens per turn. And you can do even better than that if you can deal with extra copper buys.

I think if this card cost $4 it would be a no brainer in a large percentage of engines. Pricing it at $5 certainly weakens it a little, but you probably weren't opening with it anyway.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: DG on June 18, 2013, 01:11:35 pm
I think the first card you need to compare it to is a woodcutter. It's an expensive terminal to have in your deck if you are short of actions. It can probably do much better than a woodcutter in a gardens deck or any other copper buying deck (or fool's gold).

I think the next card you need to compare it to is merchant ship, that gives +2 coins now and +2 coins next turn. The merchant's guild is going to struggle to compete with that unless you're buying 2 cards each time the guild is in play, so that's probably how it should be played.

The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play. However there are probably some clues here how to play it: heavy action deck, multiple merchant's guild in play, buying many cards at once for big coin collection. Even without big combo turns, it might be wise to save your coins from the merchant's guild until you get another big turn with merchant's guild to make sure your income keeps coming.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Awaclus on June 19, 2013, 05:02:26 am
The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play.
But coin tokens are better than VP tokens.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: HLennartz on June 20, 2013, 09:43:47 pm
Here's a game I just played vs the Goko AI where I formed an engine using Merchant Guild

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130620/log.517c14ede4b07cbd3b35b00f.1371778669692.txt

Herald was really the fuel, but it wouldn't have worked without MG. MG still mostly feels like a "Bad Bridge" to me. The major upside, though, is that it effectively reduces Coppers to "negative cost," giving you a return for each copper you buy. On my 2nd last turn, I funneled one Copper buy into 5 coin tokens for the next turn. I still had buys left over, actually, but I didn't want to dilute my action density so much that I wouldn't get the +Buy to use all those coin tokens.

(Note: And the performance of this engine is marred by me making massive handicapping mistakes, like getting a 5/2 split and accidentally passing my 1st turn with 5 copper  :'( And accidentally Procession'ing Horse Traders to throw away all my last key engine cards in hand...)
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: gman314 on June 21, 2013, 01:18:04 am
Here (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130618/log.506b686d0cf2c3b232a28752.1371582392378.txt)'s my Merchant Guild engine. The VP curve explains it all.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Stealth Tomato on June 21, 2013, 11:20:47 am
So far, I continue to feel vindicated about MG--it's not very good unless you have surplus actions and surplus drawing, which makes it extremely situational. The only other situation where I buy them is on or just before my penultimate shuffle, where a Copper or two is no real penalty and the tokens can help me pick up a Province or Duchy where I'd otherwise fall short.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: blueblimp on July 06, 2013, 07:50:00 pm
The next card to compare it to is goons. It looks massively weaker than goons even when you can get a lot of merchant's guilds in play.
But coin tokens are better than VP tokens.
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.

At first I thought Merchant Guild would play like a worse version of Bridge. It doesn't help your current turn, is more expensive, and doesn't substitute well in strong Bridge combos (KC-Bridge, NV/Bridge). Now though I think that analogy is no good.

The Goons analogy is much more accurate. Merchant Guild is incredibly weaker than Goons, but since Goons is possibly the strongest card in the game, that doesn't make MG bad. It's definitely not strong though.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 06, 2013, 11:52:59 pm
Considering that $6 cards aren't meant to be that much better than $5 cards, the Goons comparison is brutal

+$2>+$1
VP Tokens>Coin Tokens (by the logic in the above post)
And you get a free Militia style attack as well

I think it's just awesome how a card that looks so similar to Bridge can play so very differently.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Awaclus on July 07, 2013, 10:54:56 am
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

Sure, Goons is by far the better card, because it gives +$1 more and attacks, and that makes a big difference. Still, Merchant Guild stacks better, because its "While this is in play" effect is stronger.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: eHalcyon on July 07, 2013, 11:00:45 am
In most cases, I would prefer 100 victory tokens over 100 coin tokens.

Not contributing towards ensuing the game is a good thing, not a drawback. More time for you to get more victory tokens.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: SCSN on July 07, 2013, 11:11:19 am
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.

Quote
Sure, Goons is by far the better card, because it gives +$1 more and attacks, and that makes a big difference. Still, Merchant Guild stacks better, because its "While this is in play" effect is stronger.

Absolutely not. You need 6 Goons in play to make each buy worth a Province, whereas you need 8 Merchant Guilds and some way to actually spend all that money during your subsequent turns.

Goons also gives you much more time and flexibility; you can comfortably let your opponent get seven Colonies (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130508/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1367996535540.txt) before pulling off your mega turn, whereas with Merchant Guild you'd be much too late.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: achmed_sender on July 07, 2013, 11:17:47 am
A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.

Not sure about that. A better terminal Gold for $4?
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Schneau on July 07, 2013, 11:23:36 am
The thing about coin tokens is that you can use them on things besides VP cards, which means you can use them to accelerate/snowball the game. This is not the case with VP tokens, which give you no benefit besides at the end of the game.

This isn't to say that Merchant Guild is as good as Goons, or even close. But, I would guess that Monument that gave coin tokens would be stronger than regular Monument, since it functions more as an early game purchase than Goons usually does.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 07, 2013, 11:25:40 am
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.
While I generally agree that VP tokens are better than coin tokens... I don't know about this. Something that's strictly better than a terminal gold for $4 would be overpowered, no?
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: eHalcyon on July 07, 2013, 11:40:13 am
Well, I'd also prefer 1 coin token over 1 victory token. Monument is usually not a great way to get a whole lot of victory tokens so it would be much more impactful to get a coin token out of it. But with stacking cards like MG and Goons, the points are better. Goons can give more VP than can be bought, leaving MG in the dust.

Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on July 07, 2013, 12:54:51 pm
I played a fun merchant guild board last night where my draw engine was Apothecary and Spice Merchant. Consequently, I was able to buy Copper for coin tokens without worrying about slowing my deck down at all.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: SCSN on July 07, 2013, 01:46:29 pm
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.
While I generally agree that VP tokens are better than coin tokens... I don't know about this. Something that's strictly better than a terminal gold for $4 would be overpowered, no?

Maybe, but I don't actually think so. I mean, in what sort of situations would you really be dying to get this card? In engines you want trashing, so in the absence of, say, Chapel, Remake or Forager I'd rather open with a card as weak as Moneylender than with this one. Once your engine is running it can be a nice addition, but it would also require an additional Village, which isn't that hot for only generating $3, and it certainly can't compete with things like activated Conspirators.

In games where you want to get to a power 5 quickly (Witch, Mountebank, Cultist, Wharf) this card will help you get there, but later on it just sits mostly in the way, and I think it's often worse than Horse Traders (which gets you to $5 almost as easily and has the benefit of the reaction). It sounds decent for BM+X, but BM+X is just pretty shitty most of the time, and it's certainly not better than X's like Jack and Courtyard, and I doubt it's even stronger than Smithy.

I'd say the only time this card is really good is in Duchy/Duke games and late in slogs, but then it's not that much different from Horse Traders as you tend to have lots of junk to discard anyway.

So overall this thing looks pretty mediocre to me and it never much affects the game, which is actually the strongest point of Monument: if I'm building an engine that can eventually play multiple Monuments per turn, you can't just be aiming for your usual 5 Provinces.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 07, 2013, 05:49:46 pm
A card that's "+$2, take a coin token at the end of your turn" would be weaker than Monument, but the fact that you can use it immediately makes the $4 Coin Monument too strong.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: blueblimp on July 07, 2013, 10:25:12 pm
Whether Monument would be stronger with a coin token will depend on the board (as always ;)), because if you're racing your opponent to build an explosive engine, an early coin token is more helpful than a VP token, whereas in BM, maybe you'll find more value in the accumulated VP tokens at game end. Well, for BM I'm not sure, but for many engines you will want the coin token.

That's only because you get the tokens from Monument early, though. For Goons (and presumably Merchant Guild too?), the best use is to execute a megaturn that results in a token explosion. At that point, your engine is already built, so what are you going to do with coin tokens other than buy VP with them next turn?

Maybe I'm missing the point completely and the correct use of MG is more like Goons+BM, where you don't build an engine and spend extra buys on copper to accumulate tokens.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: eHalcyon on July 08, 2013, 12:08:44 am
I expect Merchant Guild to be something to build into a mega-turn.  With Goons, you're often looking for one explosive multi-Goons turn to gain an insurmountable VP lead and probably to empty piles and end the game.  Before that big turn, the smaller Goons turns can help (get some VP to make it more difficult for the Province player to end it) but the couple VP here and there don't matter as much compared to the final balance.

A multi-MG turn doesn't give the points to end the game -- it just gives money later on.  But the early plays that grant coin tokens can be saved for a future mega-turn or series of almost-mega-turns.  MG is cheaper than Goons so it can get started earlier, and each play of it helps get the engine going faster.  I think this is why it has to cost more than Bridge.  People have commented that Bridge and MG look similar on the surface, except that Bridge is more immediate because the cost reduction helps on the turn Bridge is played whereas MG's coin token rebate can't be used immediately.  But that actually works out to be an advantage because you can save those up for the future.  It's like building up a multi-Bridge mega-turn over multiple turns before cashing in on all the cost "reduction".
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: blueblimp on July 08, 2013, 12:38:34 am
For explosive engines, money earlier is way better than money later, because your $ to spend increases exponentially once the engine comes together. So saving is usually going to be wrong except to smooth out your $.

If you're not saving, then you're not benefiting over Bridge unless you're buying cards that cost less than the number of MG you have in play. So often that means either you have at least 4 MG in play or you're buying copper. In the first case, that may already be a full-blown megaturn depending on what else you're playing, and with Bridge you may be able to end the game in a win that turn, or at least buy enough components to comfortably win next turn. In the second case, buying those coppers is going to delay your megaturn (except in edge cases where you can trash them, e.g. Watchtower).

I figure maybe it costs more than Bridge because MG+BM might be really good if MG costs $4 and you use the spare buys on copper, since copper isn't all that bad for BM+X.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: dondon151 on July 08, 2013, 12:53:57 am
I figure maybe it costs more than Bridge because MG+BM might be really good if MG costs $4 and you use the spare buys on copper, since copper isn't all that bad for BM+X.

Relative to cards that you actually want, Copper is pretty bad for BM+X. It's even worse if your X is a non-drawing terminal.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: blueblimp on July 08, 2013, 12:58:16 am
I figure maybe it costs more than Bridge because MG+BM might be really good if MG costs $4 and you use the spare buys on copper, since copper isn't all that bad for BM+X.

Relative to cards that you actually want, Copper is pretty bad for BM+X. It's even worse if your X is a non-drawing terminal.
Copper itself is bad, but Copper plus a coin token maybe pretty good. For example, GCCCC or SSCCC plus a coin token will get a Province, so that reduces the usual reason to avoid it (that it's bad for hitting $8).
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: LastFootnote on July 08, 2013, 03:59:27 pm
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10). Plus VP cards take up room in your deck.
Plus they contribute towards ending the game. And so do coins, by allowing you to buy those VP cards. VP tokens do not, and that is a big drawback. Monument with coin tokens would be too good for $4.

A Monument that would give you a coin token in stead of the VP would be decidedly weaker.
While I generally agree that VP tokens are better than coin tokens... I don't know about this. Something that's strictly better than a terminal gold for $4 would be overpowered, no?

Maybe, but I don't actually think so. I mean, in what sort of situations would you really be dying to get this card? In engines you want trashing, so in the absence of, say, Chapel, Remake or Forager I'd rather open with a card as weak as Moneylender than with this one. Once your engine is running it can be a nice addition, but it would also require an additional Village, which isn't that hot for only generating $3, and it certainly can't compete with things like activated Conspirators.

In games where you want to get to a power 5 quickly (Witch, Mountebank, Cultist, Wharf) this card will help you get there, but later on it just sits mostly in the way, and I think it's often worse than Horse Traders (which gets you to $5 almost as easily and has the benefit of the reaction). It sounds decent for BM+X, but BM+X is just pretty shitty most of the time, and it's certainly not better than X's like Jack and Courtyard, and I doubt it's even stronger than Smithy.

I think what you're missing is that this card itself is the power card you're going for, and it only costs $4.

EDIT: More specifically, I'm guessing you're wrong about it being a mediocre BM+X card. I think it'd beat Jack, Courtyard, and Smithy.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Warfreak2 on July 09, 2013, 03:08:48 am
Definitely not. Even Colonies, the most efficient VP cards by cost, require more coins ($11) than they give VP (10).
I'm going to argue the other way. Yes, coin tokens en masse are inefficient if that's your entire economy; they're harder to get than other sources of $. Spending 8 coin tokens for a Province is not good unless you are doing Scrying Pool/Candlestick Maker or Merchant Guild superturns.

But in any other deck, whenever you hit $7 (or $6), a coin token is worth 3VP (or 1.5VP) for you because otherwise you would have bought a Duchy; on $4 you can get 2VP out of your coin token by getting a Duchy instead of an Estate. In Colony games, when you have $10, $9 or $8, a coin token is worth 4VP, 2VP or 1.333VP.

In most games, most of your $ is not in the form of coin tokens, in which case you can preferentially spend coin tokens only when each coin token gets you at least 1VP compared to the cheaper option. If that means you aren't spending them often enough, so that you would have a bunch of them unspent at the end of the game, you are generating too many coin tokens - but you can cash them out for <1VP each while still maintaining a healthy average.

As for +$2, take a coin token, it would be a lot better than Monument; it's terminal, so the number of tokens you'll be producing with it will be low enough to sustain better-than-1VP-each spending for the rest of the game; you also have the option of spending them on cards that aren't green.

Sure, a big pile of VP chips will beat a big pile of coin tokens any day - but in the modest quantities seen in normal games, coin tokens are better.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Davio on July 09, 2013, 05:56:15 am
It seems to me that Coin tokens are great for megaturns, but haven't pulled off enough of them to be sure.
I mean, saving Coins for later should be better than wasting any $ now, although you still need them to buy more components. But on your penultimate turn you could just "sort-of-Haven all your money" by grabbing coin tokens and not buying anything with them.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: NoMoreFun on July 09, 2013, 07:08:29 am
The main use I've found with Coin tokens is that once you start greening, you can get a province every turn with a lesser engine.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: blueblimp on July 10, 2013, 03:53:45 am
I can believe that maybe MG is good if you buy just 1 or 2 and use them BM style. Though BM is often a weak option these days.

It seems to me that Coin tokens are great for megaturns, but haven't pulled off enough of them to be sure.
I mean, saving Coins for later should be better than wasting any $ now, although you still need them to buy more components. But on your penultimate turn you could just "sort-of-Haven all your money" by grabbing coin tokens and not buying anything with them.
I'm pretty sure you'd be a lot better off with a Bridge in that situation, though, than a MG. It will help you buy components sooner. And Bridge is cheaper at $4, and not a power card itself. (It's okay, but not that great.)
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Davio on July 10, 2013, 04:38:08 am
Well, I think Bridge is a power card because it's quadratic.

Play 1 Bridge, you can get a free $1 card besides your normal buy, Poor House
Play 2 and you can get 2 $2s for free or $4 worth
Play 3 and get 3 $3s for free or $9 worth
Play 4.... $16 worth

So the progression is +1, +3, +5, +7, +9, +11, etc.. or simply n^2 of free extra spending power on top of your regular buy. Basically, the most important part of Bridge is the sneaky +Buy that's tacked on it, allowing you to use that buying power.

Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: shMerker on July 10, 2013, 12:44:41 pm
Something I see happen a lot with bridge is that early in the game it's like an expensive Woodcutter. Because the cost reduction ends up being enough to get me a $5 instead of a $4 but not enough to score anything extra on top of that. Like if I've played a Bridge and have $4 to spend on top of that ok now I can grab a power $5 but unless there's something like Native Village or Hamlet on the board the remaining coin is just gonna get burned. If I did the same thing with a Merchant Guild the extra coin is a token I can save for when I have enough to pick up something else.

Basically it seems to me like the Merchant Guild will help you more in getting an engine together when the components skew more expensive, like if the only Village on the board is Worker's or Farming.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Stealth Tomato on July 10, 2013, 12:55:55 pm
It seems to me that Coin tokens are great for megaturns, but haven't pulled off enough of them to be sure.
I mean, saving Coins for later should be better than wasting any $ now, although you still need them to buy more components. But on your penultimate turn you could just "sort-of-Haven all your money" by grabbing coin tokens and not buying anything with them.

It's rare (I've only done it twice, and I'm always looking for opportunities), but if you can amass Coin tokens in a deck with a lot of +buys, you can effectively green without greening, since you can turn your 8 Coin tokens into a Province at any time.

Candlestick Maker and Plaza are extremely good for this. Merchant Guild would probably be situationally good for this.

The big problems with MG that I've seen are as follows:
1. It gives a terrible this-turn benefit for its cost (terminal Copper! for $5!), so you slow down a ton while amassing them.
2. You need cheap stuff available that is useful for your deck. Hamlet, Vagrant, Pearl Diver. Wrecking your engine with Coppers for $10-20 in Coin tokens is not typically worth it.

It doesn't even belong in the conversation with Goons. Maybe if it gave $2 and/or incorporated a similar attack.
Title: Re: Merchant Guild
Post by: Davio on July 10, 2013, 01:05:17 pm
A big problem also has to be that you may very well want or need to spend the coin tokens instead of saving them for a megaturn. You need cards to enable that megaturn and you need to spend money and coins to get those cards.