Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Adventures Previews => Empires Previews => Dominion: Nocturne Previews => Dominion: Renaissance Previews => Dominion General Discussion => Guilds Previews => Topic started by: kn1tt3r on June 13, 2013, 10:15:11 am

Title: Card Photos
Post by: kn1tt3r on June 13, 2013, 10:15:11 am
Some twitter link posted on BGG:
https://twitter.com/xitoliv

(http://i.imgur.com/SVLt6p6.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/oUZd03E.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/1etgh8w.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/xfyGQ6w.jpg)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: brokoli on June 13, 2013, 10:19:59 am
Hurray ! And the artwork is much, much better than the previews !
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Davio on June 13, 2013, 10:21:58 am
Anyone willing to compile a text list with all the cards?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 10:25:26 am
Here are the text versions, sorted by cost.

Candlestick Maker
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Take a Coin token.

Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Name a card. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash the matches. Put the rest back on top in any order.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look at the top card of your deck; trash it, discard it, or put it back.

Masterpiece
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3+
Worth $1.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain a Silver per $1 you overpaid.

Advisor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses one of them. Discard that card. Put the other cards into your hand.

Herald
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an Action, play it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look through your discard pile and put a card from it on top of your deck.

Plaza
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, take a Coin token.

Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.

Baker
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Take a Coin token.

Setup: Each player takes a Coin token.

Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may trash a card from your hand and then pay any number of Coin tokens. If you did trash a card, gain a card with a cost of up to the cost of the trashed card plus the number of Coin tokens you paid.

Journeyman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 cards that are not the named card. Put those cards into your hand and discard the rest.

Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.

Soothsayer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. Each player who did draws a card.

Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: brokoli on June 13, 2013, 10:28:30 am
I love Stonemason.
Soothsayer seems quite weak compared to witch or mountebank, but I'm fine with that.
Really like Plaza.
Merchant guild seems a really fun engine card, probably not as boring as goons.
Masterpiece is strange, probably good for slogs and rushes, but otherwise weak.
Taxman seems brutal... Mine + improved-cutpurse-that-only-attack... interesting.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 10:31:30 am
I love Advisor thematically.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Davio on June 13, 2013, 10:33:35 am
Thanks, so there I thought: Hmm, a Butcher, that turns big things into little things, right?
But now we have Stonemason which does that. I'm just glad that the idea got in.

I wonder if I'll ever pay $7 just to get 2 Hunting Parties out of Stonemason.

Some rules assumptions.
Stonemason: Costing less means something worth $0 doesn't get turned into anything.
Soothsayer: I wonder what the timing is with respect to WT. Does WT jump into action right after you gained the Curse or can you pick which one you want to resolve first: The drawing or the trashing?

Candlestick Maker comes pretty close to "strictly better" when compared to Pawn.
For the same price, you get +1A/+1B/+$1 where Pawn can just get you two of those.
Of course, Pawn can get you a card, but if you never need a card (say something with Minion or Library), you'd always pick this.

Advisor is basically a Minion at best (+1 Action/+2 Coppers) and if there's even one VP card in there you're doomed?

IMPORTANT: Scout actually combos with Advisor!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: jbrecken on June 13, 2013, 10:36:50 am
No Victory card in in this set - that's a surprise.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 10:37:24 am
really like stonemason. you can't use the coin token you get from merchant guild that turn right?

advisor is similar to envoy, but will probably play much differently. soothsayer BM could be really good. It could be interesting to get a hand with a ton of money, buy a masterpiece, then dig into feoda. Especially on a board with no +buy.

candlestick maker is the card for a coin token megaturn if there ever was one.

plaza could be good with double tactician?

stonemason is still my favorite by far.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 10:38:05 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Davio on June 13, 2013, 10:38:56 am
No Victory card in in this set - that's a surprise.
No VP card and no reaction, that makes me pretty sad actually.

Especially the VP card bit, they always shake things up in a nice way.

Go go success kid: Played Advisor, revealed 3 Tunnels!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Just a Rube on June 13, 2013, 10:42:20 am
So, it turns out the bald person theme wasn't just a throw-away joke. Awesome.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 10:48:07 am
I really like the card art here too.  More standard than the previews.  Advisor is especially nice.  You can really see that man on the left is up to no good with his suggestions.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on June 13, 2013, 10:48:47 am
Advisor is basically a Minion at best (+1 Action/+2 Coppers) and if there's even one VP card in there you're doomed?

Sure, if you buy it as an opener. Menagerie's not very good on turn 1, either.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: brokoli on June 13, 2013, 10:49:56 am
Candlestick Maker comes pretty close to "strictly better" when compared to Pawn.
For the same price, you get +1A/+1B/+$1 where Pawn can just get you two of those.
Of course, Pawn can get you a card, but if you never need a card (say something with Minion or Library), you'd always pick this.
The strenght of pawn is its versability, so I disagree.
Candlestick is closer to herbalist IMO : Copper + buy and a little bonus (here the copper is a coin token). So candlestick maker just like herbalist often can hurts your deck. Pawn never hurts*, because you can always take the +1 action +1 card option.

*Ok, unless you draw it dead. But often in this case you wouldn't have taken that pawn.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 10:50:18 am

Soothsayer: I wonder what the timing is with respect to WT. Does WT jump into action right after you gained the Curse or can you pick which one you want to resolve first: The drawing or the trashing?


It says each player that gained a curse then draws a card.  So gain a curse first.  Resolve. Draw.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on June 13, 2013, 10:51:28 am
Advisor openings seem fine, really good cycling and will normally draw at least one Copper.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 10:51:56 am

Soothsayer: I wonder what the timing is with respect to WT. Does WT jump into action right after you gained the Curse or can you pick which one you want to resolve first: The drawing or the trashing?


It says each player that gained a curse then draws a card.  So gain a curse first.  Resolve. Draw.

But to be clear, you still get to draw a card even if you trash the Curse with Watchtower. Just not if you gained a Silver instead via Trader.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 10:52:21 am
Soothsayer: I wonder what the timing is with respect to WT. Does WT jump into action right after you gained the Curse or can you pick which one you want to resolve first: The drawing or the trashing?

You would have to resolve any reactions to gaining before drawing.  If you reveal Watchtower to trash, then you still gained the Curse, so you will draw.  If you revealed a Trader, then you did not gain the Curse, so you would not draw.

Edit:  Ninja'd
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Davio on June 13, 2013, 10:53:26 am
Seems pretty sweet.

Gain a Curse, trash it, draw a card, say thanks, especially if someone KC'd it.

And I understand CM isn't strictly better than Pawn, because +Card is used quite a lot. It's just, well, they have a bit of overlap there so again I'm disappointed by lack of more creativity.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 10:54:34 am

Soothsayer: I wonder what the timing is with respect to WT. Does WT jump into action right after you gained the Curse or can you pick which one you want to resolve first: The drawing or the trashing?


It says each player that gained a curse then draws a card.  So gain a curse first.  Resolve. Draw.

But to be clear, you still get to draw a card even if you trash the Curse with Watchtower. Just not if you gained a Silver instead via Trader.

Indeed.  Or if you put the curse on top of your deck with Watchtower, you get to draw it!  (Which could actually be useful in certain cases, like if Forager needs a target, or any other trasher that needs a target. )

Edit: Or you need more cards to discard for Vault et al., or you have a Madman in your hand.. lots of cases I guess.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: kn1tt3r on June 13, 2013, 10:58:55 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.

You probably can. After the first 30 buys you have 30 tokens which you can use for the last 10 buys. I think.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 10:59:47 am
I think you spend coin tokes right after your action phase but before your buy phase.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 10:59:57 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.

You probably can. After the first 30 buys you have 30 tokens which you can use for the last 10 buys. I think.

You can only use coin tokens during your buy phase and before buying a card.

Edit: Except for those special cards which let you spend them for other things (Butcher)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: microman on June 13, 2013, 11:00:53 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.
How about KC KC MG MG MG.  That could get pretty crazy too.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: kn1tt3r on June 13, 2013, 11:02:05 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.

You probably can. After the first 30 buys you have 30 tokens which you can use for the last 10 buys. I think.

You can only use coin tokens during your buy phase and before buying a card.

Edit: Except for those special cards which let you spend them for other things (Butcher)

You have to use them before buying A SINGLE card of before buying the FIRST card?

But yeah, probably you're right.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 11:02:29 am
So Advisor is the Envoy-atory.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 11:02:53 am
that doesn't work because MG is only while it's in play, so you wouldn't get 9 tokens per buy, just 3.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 11:03:03 am
So, can I "overpay" for Stonemason by $0 and gain two free Peddlers?  Or for that matter, Ruins, or some other actions with cost reduction?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 11:04:41 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.
How about KC KC MG MG MG.  That could get pretty crazy too.  Just a thought.

Merchant Guild has a "While in play" clause.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 11:06:06 am
Soothsayer is going to lead to some interesting decisions - do I block the Attack, or do I draw a card?  Of course, Watchtower lets you have both.

EDIT:  Didn't DonaldX mention that another theme of this expansion was making Watchtower better?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 13, 2013, 11:07:04 am
Stonemason is pretty sweet. So, I can pay $9 and get two KC's! Hell yeah! I'm really loving this set. Masterpiece just loves Feodum.

Soothsayer seems pretty nice. Most likely not  on the power level of Mountebank or Witch, but still solid.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 11:07:11 am
Soothsayer is going to lead to some interesting decisions - do I block the Attack, or do I draw a card?  Of course, Watchtower lets you have both.
no it doesn't...

holy crap: 29 Members and 74 Guests are viewing this topic.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 11:07:19 am
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.

You probably can. After the first 30 buys you have 30 tokens which you can use for the last 10 buys. I think.

You can only use coin tokens during your buy phase and before buying a card.

Edit: Except for those special cards which let you spend them for other things (Butcher)

You have to use them before buying A SINGLE card of before buying the FIRST card?

But yeah, probably you're right.

You can rephrase it to "before a card has been bought" if you think that wording was ambiguous.  Basically it's the same rule as playing Treasures, except you can't use coin tokens during the Black Market buy.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 11:08:05 am
Stonemason is pretty sweet. So, I can pay $9 and get two KC's! Hell yeah! I'm really loving this set. Masterpiece just loves Feodum.

Soothsayer seems pretty nice. Most likely not  on the power level of Mountebank or Witch, but still solid.

And Gardens, but it's going to be absolutely useless otherwise.  You have to overpay by at least $2 in order to actually get your money's worth out of it.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 11:08:32 am
I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Candlestick Maker
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Take a Coin token.

From all the Coin token cards shown, I'm guessing Coin tokens must be pretty darn powerful. This is a Copper with an extra Buy, but you can save the coin for later. I was hoping Journeyman would be the least interesting card in the set. They can't all be the most interesting card ever, I guess.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.

Quote
Masterpiece
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3+
Worth $1.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain a Silver per $1 you overpaid.

I was wondering if we'd get a card that gained Silvers based on how much you overpaid. Turns out we did. It's a shame it's just a Copper after the buy, but I like the overpay effect.

Quote
Advisor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses one of them. Discard that card. Put the other cards into your hand.

Probably stronger once you get rid of your initial Estates. Seems weak in general, but I'm probably underestimating it.

Quote
Plaza
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, take a Coin token.

A village that turns Coppers into Coin tokens. As I said, Coin tokens must be awesome for this ability to be worthwhile.

Quote
Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.

Hmm, unlike Mine, I think I'd rather trash Copper most of the time. Any other Treasure makes the attack much less likely to hit, I would think. Cool card.

Quote
Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.

The return of Seaside! Terrible this turn for a big bonus on future turns. I like it.

Quote
Soothsayer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. Each player who did draws a card.

I remember Donald talking about an Alchemy card that was [Gain a Gold; each other player gains a Curse]. He said it was either great or terrible depending on how quickly you got it. I guess the card drawing offsets that somehow?

Am I misremembering, or is this the first "Gain a Gold" card that you don't have to jump through hoops for? Bag of Gold has you jumping through hoops to get it, and all the others I can think of (Treasure Map, Tunnel, Market Square) have you jumping through hoops to use them. Strange to finally have a card that just straight-up gains a Gold, especially after the Curses run out.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 11:09:04 am
Also - these all have much better art - I think DonaldX was just trolling us with the previews.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schlippy on June 13, 2013, 11:09:19 am
I don't really like the wording on Soothsayer. I can already see the people I play with in reallife arguing that "Each player who did draws a card" also applies to them when they play it, because they gained a Gold.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 11:10:56 am
So, can I "overpay" for Stonemason by $0 and gain two free Peddlers?  Or for that matter, Ruins, or some other actions with cost reduction?

I'm guessing not. You'll notice that Stonemason is the only overpay card with an "if you do" clause. Peddler is probably the reason.

EDIT: Nevermind. Masterpiece also has that wording. Still, my guess stands.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Kirian on June 13, 2013, 11:11:25 am
Winners: eHalcyon for Advisor AKA Harbinger, and LastFootnote andwilk for Journeyman AKA Gatherer.

Edit: Somehow I got the names wrong.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 11:12:29 am
Stonemason is pretty sweet. So, I can pay $9 and get two KC's! Hell yeah! I'm really loving this set. Masterpiece just loves Feodum.

Soothsayer seems pretty nice. Most likely not  on the power level of Mountebank or Witch, but still solid.

And Gardens, but it's going to be absolutely useless otherwise.  You have to overpay by at least $2 in order to actually get your money's worth out of it.

It's a Silver Flooder.  BM-Masterpiece might even be interesting.  Instead of buying a Gold, you essentially gain 1 Copper and 3 Silvers.  Even better when you have $7 to spend.  It would probably go well with Envoy.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 11:13:33 am
So, can I "overpay" for Stonemason by $0 and gain two free Peddlers?  Or for that matter, Ruins, or some other actions with cost reduction?

I'm guessing not. You'll notice that Stonemason is the only overpay card with an "if you do" clause. Peddler is probably the reason.

EDIT: Nevermind. Masterpiece also has that wording. Still, my guess stands.

Well, I think there is a difference between choosing not to overpay, versus choosing to overpay by $0.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 11:13:40 am
Winners: eHalcyon for Advisor AKA Harbinger, and LastFootnote for Journeyman AKA Gatherer.

Gatherer isn't mine. andwilk made it.

I did make a card called Soothsayer for the contest, but I like the official one better.  :D
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 11:13:53 am
Stonemason is pretty sweet. So, I can pay $9 and get two KC's! Hell yeah! I'm really loving this set. Masterpiece just loves Feodum.

Soothsayer seems pretty nice. Most likely not  on the power level of Mountebank or Witch, but still solid.

And Gardens, but it's going to be absolutely useless otherwise.  You have to overpay by at least $2 in order to actually get your money's worth out of it.

It's a Silver Flooder.  BM-Masterpiece might even be interesting.  Instead of buying a Gold, you essentially gain 1 Copper and 3 Silvers.  Even better when you have $7 to spend.  It would probably go well with EnvoyAdvisor.

FTFY

I mean, yeah, Envoy is more BM-y, but they do cost the same, and Advisor is actually in this expansion.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Voltaire on June 13, 2013, 11:13:56 am
I don't really like the wording on Soothsayer. I can already see the people I play with in reallife arguing that "Each player who did draws a card" also applies to them when they play it, because they gained a Gold.
I am assuming clarifying that will be the first entry in Soothsayer's FAQ.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: AJD on June 13, 2013, 11:16:08 am
First time the curser hasn't been on-theme with the expansion—Soothsayer doesn't use coin tokens or overpaying. I'm obscurely disappointed about that.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 11:16:25 am
but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Kirian on June 13, 2013, 11:17:24 am
Am I misremembering, or is this the first "Gain a Gold" card that you don't have to jump through hoops for? Bag of Gold has you jumping through hoops to get it, and all the others I can think of (Treasure Map, Tunnel, Market Square) have you jumping through hoops to use them. Strange to finally have a card that just straight-up gains a Gold, especially after the Curses run out.

Governor?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schlippy on June 13, 2013, 11:17:59 am
Well, I think there is a difference between choosing not to overpay, versus choosing to overpay by $0.
I don't get how you can overpay by 0.

a: "Hey, I bought a car for 20.000$"
b: "What? My car is exactly the same and I only payed 20.000$ instead of 20.000$"
a: "Really? You say I overpayed 0$ for my car? Oh man, sucks to be me..."
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 11:20:04 am
explorer is also a card which gains gold, but isn't easy to do.

heh, just realized: an explorer and province in hand can gain you a gold. A tournament and province in hand can gain you a gold that turn for sure too if nobody else has a province in hand.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: zporiri on June 13, 2013, 11:21:06 am
feodum seems like a big winner with guilds. with stonemason you can trash a feodum and gain 5 silvers. you can over pay a lot for masterpiece and gain a lot of silver. then with that high money density, you will be able to over pay for masterpiece again in the future, gaining even more silver. this seems like the best non-trasher feodum-enabler yet (with perhaps the reaction of trader in a hand with many buys).
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 11:21:42 am
Am I misremembering, or is this the first "Gain a Gold" card that you don't have to jump through hoops for? Bag of Gold has you jumping through hoops to get it, and all the others I can think of (Treasure Map, Tunnel, Market Square) have you jumping through hoops to use them. Strange to finally have a card that just straight-up gains a Gold, especially after the Curses run out.

Governor?

Ah, nice. Thanks.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 11:22:00 am
I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 11:23:30 am
oh man, stonemason on peddler to pick up 2 KC. 3-card combo, sure, but that's awesome. border village isn't bad either.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 11:24:26 am
I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.

Border Village and Peddler are definitely good targets, I agree. But on most boards, you'd have to trash a Gold (or a Province) to gain $5 cards. That's a Gold you could have spent this turn!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 11:27:30 am
Well, I think there is a difference between choosing not to overpay, versus choosing to overpay by $0.
I don't get how you can overpay by 0.

a: "Hey, I bought a car for 20.000$"
b: "What? My car is exactly the same and I only payed 20.000$ instead of 20.000$"
a: "Really? You say I overpayed 0$ for my car? Oh man, sucks to be me..."

Makes sense to me, aside from why that person is upset about overpaying by $0.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 11:28:12 am
I guess I'll give my initial reactions.

Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

The on-play effect looks terribly weak. Compare it to Develop. You get worse cards and they don't get topdecked. I'm guessing it'll be most useful for turning a Gold into 2 Duchies or some other expensive cards into 2 copies of Silk Road, Gardens, etc. Turning a Familiar into two Vineyards could be cool.

The on-buy effect seems very powerful. If you get one early, hopefully those new awesome Actions will offset having the Stonemason in your deck.


I might disagree here.  Develop restricts you with gaining cards of a specific price.  This seems to be much more versatile.  You could probably use it to help build an engine by picking up a bunch of $5 and $4.  Border Village and Peddler seem like good targets. It would also seem to accelerate the greening phase, as you mentioned.

Border Village and Peddler are definitely good targets, I agree. But on most boards, you'd have to trash a Gold (or a Province) to gain $5 cards. That's a Gold you could have spent this turn!

Yeah but you're still turning your $3 Gold into $10.  And you can still buy something with the other three cards in your hand.  Imagine drawing Gold Gold Silver Stonemason Junk in a Penultimate Province situation.  You turn your choice of overpaying for a Duchy or buying the Province to put yourself in a losing situation into getting 3 Duchys to put your opponent into the Penultimate Province dilemma.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: brokoli on June 13, 2013, 11:37:07 am
feodum seems like a big winner with guilds. with stonemason you can trash a feodum and gain 5 silvers. you can over pay a lot for masterpiece and gain a lot of silver. then with that high money density, you will be able to over pay for masterpiece again in the future, gaining even more silver. this seems like the best non-trasher feodum-enabler yet (with perhaps the reaction of trader in a hand with many buys).
Stonemason : I think in practice, it's not so good (and I'm probably the most fervent defender of Feodum here). Stonemason can trash feodum but usually in a feodum game you don't want to trash more than 2 feodums.
Masterpiece : In a feodum game, you often have $7 or $8 to spend so yes, I think Masterpiece + Feodum is going to be great. But maybe for $8 you would prefer a province ?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: mameluke on June 13, 2013, 11:39:07 am
Similarly, trash a Platinum, gain two Provinces!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Kirian on June 13, 2013, 11:43:04 am
Has anyone mentioned yet that Butcher, Baker, and Candlestick Maker are a combo?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 13, 2013, 11:47:29 am
Has anyone mentioned yet that Butcher, Baker, and Candlestick Maker are a combo?

How so?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schneau on June 13, 2013, 11:55:06 am
but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.

Baker could help, starting out with a coin token.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Dsell on June 13, 2013, 12:09:54 pm
Reposting what I posted in the "wrong" thread initially:

Plaza looks terrific. So much flexibility there, although it'll require some coppers (or masterpieces) lying around in your engine.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schlippy on June 13, 2013, 12:11:53 pm
When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 12:17:10 pm
When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?

Overpaying does not change the cost of the card.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: eHalcyon on June 13, 2013, 12:20:52 pm
Without reading other posts...

Candlestick Maker -- Simple.  Looks like a decent $2.  Non-terminal, +Buy, and even a Coin token you can save.  I like it.  And of course, I like that Butcher, Baker and Candlestick Maker all have to do with coin tokens.  The other two cards with Coin tokens are Plaza and Merchant Guild... if only the Plaza were a Tub.

Stonemason -- Stonemason is a $2 card, but I expect it will often be bought for more than that.  It is actually really, really neat.  When you overpay for it, you actually effectively get +$ equal to what you overpaid and you effectively get 2 buys to boot.  Note that they don't have to be the same action card; they just need to be the same cost.

Question: Is it possible to overpay by $0?  For the other overpay cards, it doesn't work because you get no benefit unless you overpay at least $1.  But with Stonemason, you could still benefit if there are action cards costing $0, which is possible with cost reduction. 

I expect that "overpay" requires paying at least $1, in which case you would have to be careful with cost reduction not to reduce the card you want to mason down to $0.  Still, it could be a pretty powerful combo.  With ONLY a Quarry in play, you could get Stonemason and two $4s.  Cost reduction is doubly effective for Stonemason because it reduces the initial cost of Stonemason as well as the amount you need to overpay for any specific card.

Masterpiece -- I can't think of any realistic reasons why you would buy this for $3.  At $3, Silver is strictly better.  The only exception is when you want variety for some reason, but you'll want Silver anyway and it would be better to get this with an extra Silver for $4 rather than buying the Silver separately.  Outside of Gardens games, you'll probably never buy this for less than $5.  Even at $4 you will usually prefer having a Silver without an extra Copper.  At $5, it is a decent deal: 2 Silvers with an extra Copper tossed in.  Since overpay is on buy, you can still lose the Masterpiece to, for example, Trader.  Masterpiece+Trader could be very silly, especially with Feodum (and Feodum+Trader is already silly).

Someone speculated on something very similar to this earlier, and I criticized it.  I can't remember if it was exactly like this (in which case I was wrong) or if it was, like, a non-terminal +$2 action (in which case I stand by my original statement).

Advisor -- I quite like this card.  I submitted a very simlar card to the non-attack interaction contest of the MSDC:

#2 (tie) - Artificer by eHalcyon with 13 points (Clementine)
$5 - Action
+5 Cards
+1 Action
Reveal your hand.  The player to your left chooses a card to discard from your hand, then the player to your right does the same.

With Artificer, you get the worst 3 of 5; with Advisor you get the worst 2 of 3.

I like Advisor, but I think it will be weak unless you get a deck of super high quality, where no particular discard hurts you.  It's big bonus is that it increases your hand size non-terminally.  Decks that rely on key cards will not be able to use this effectively without other support (e.g. Cellar).

Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Taxman -- the treasure discarder that fan card creators always think about!  This one keeps the power reasonable through two checks:
- it only hits players with more than 4 cards in hand;
- you have to trash a copy of the treasure, so it hurts you to target non-Copper treasures.

If that were all that it did, then probably this would be nothing more than a Copper trasher most of the time.  But it also has a delayed Mine effect, top-decking the gained treasure instead of putting it in your hand.  Thus it is not strictly superior to Mine.

This should be a pretty good engine card, I think.  Not sure.  Well, you replace Coppers with more efficient treasures, at the same time slowing down your opponent, sometimes quite significantly.  Making them discard Silver or Gold is pretty huge.

Merchant Guild -- On its own, this is sort of a restricted terminal Gold.  You get 2 buys, which means you can get up to 2 coin tokens.  But you can't spend those coin tokens until the next turn.  Maybe Merchant Ship is comparable in this respect?  And like Goons, multiple MGs can get you a massive coin token surplus.  Interestingly, that means that you could potentially play to a MG megaturn strategy. 

It would be more difficult than with Goons though.  With the latter, you go out in one giant blaze of glory, racking up huge points and draining 3 piles, probably massively lowering the quality of your deck by filling it with Coppers or Curses.  With MG, you can't exactly do that because the MG megaturn only gets you a crapton of money, not VP.  You then have to use the money... probably over the next several turns, putting together as much +Buy as you can to make use of all the coin tokens you now have.  Watchtower makes it easier. 

But yeah, I don't think MG will be all that effective unless you play multiples together, and/or have another reason to use every buy (Gardens, Watchtower, maybe Trader).

Soothsayer -- This is disappointing to me, because I don't think it really fits the theme of the expansion.  No coin tokens, no overpaying.  In every other expansion, the curser exemplified the theme.

Seems decent, not great.  Gaining Gold is nice, but it doesn't help you at all on the turn you play it AND it helps your opponents.  Interestingly, this is like Marauder's big brother.  Gain Gold vs. Spoils, opponents gain Curse vs. Ruins.  But I think Marauder is stronger because it doesn't help opponents when you play it, and you can always open with Marauder.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 12:25:30 pm
When you overpay for something and the cost with overpay is higher than 4, do you still gain a second copy with Talisman if the original cost was lower than 5?

Overpaying does not change the cost of the card.

To add to this, although we haven't seen the precise rules yet, Donald's answers suggest that you pay the list price as usual when you buy the card, and then as on-buy effect, you can spend extra for some effect.  The overpayment is distinct from the original payment, just like Min'ts trashing, Noble Brigand's "attack", or Farmland's upgrading.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schneau on June 13, 2013, 12:31:14 pm
Masterpiece -- I can't think of any realistic reasons why you would buy this for $3.  At $3, Silver is strictly better.  The only exception is when you want variety for some reason, but you'll want Silver anyway and it would be better to get this with an extra Silver for $4 rather than buying the Silver separately.  Outside of Gardens games, you'll probably never buy this for less than $5.  Even at $4 you will usually prefer having a Silver without an extra Copper.  At $5, it is a decent deal: 2 Silvers with an extra Copper tossed in.  Since overpay is on buy, you can still lose the Masterpiece to, for example, Trader.  Masterpiece+Trader could be very silly, especially with Feodum (and Feodum+Trader is already silly).

At $5, it compares to Cache. Is a Gold and 2 Copper better than 2 Silvers and a Copper? Probably about the same, maybe a bit better for Cache. Of course, Masterpiece has added flexibility that allows for it to be bought for more or less than $5.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 12:32:20 pm
Quote
Taxman -- the treasure discarder that fan card creators always think about!  This one keeps the power reasonable through two checks:
- it only hits players with more than 4 cards in hand;
- you have to trash a copy of the treasure, so it hurts you to target non-Copper treasures.

If that were all that it did, then probably this would be nothing more than a Copper trasher most of the time.  But it also has a delayed Mine effect, top-decking the gained treasure instead of putting it in your hand.  Thus it is not strictly superior to Mine.

Also it specifies up to 3, not exactly 3.  Essentially you can put a Gold (Platinum) on top of your deck to force your opponent to discard a Gold (Platinum).  That's actually useful in those times when you draw 3 gold and a silver.  Or when you draw Gold/dead stuff.  It could just tip the edge in some kind otherwise uninteresting board where you're both just buying Gold and Provinces, both delaying your opponent's Province and evening out your next turn's money.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Watno on June 13, 2013, 12:33:17 pm
awesome! sad it's the last time maybe :(
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 12:37:44 pm
Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: MarkowKette on June 13, 2013, 12:38:55 pm
I think Taxman isn't as strong as it seems on the first glare:

yes the attack part is stronger than the one from cutpurse but it leads you to difficult decisions after the first phase of the game:
do i want to turn my silver into a gold not sure if the attack will hit? but if it hits i hurts more than losing only a copper..
and compared to mine: not getting the "upgraded" treasure in hand makes a huge difference, even though you have it top decked.

all in all i think this is a valuable card on many boards but quite ofter passable.

I really like Plaza for its flexibility but later in the game it will often just be a normal village if there is strong trashing going on.
A really nice card to set up an engine that needs an expensive card as early as possible (KC/Goons) but ceartainly not a power house itself.

Advisor on the other hand is a really swingy card. If one is able to get lots of advisors very fast (workshops, ironworks etc. ,even stonemason maybe) It could be easy to set up an engine that draws the whole deck, where the "you discard cards chosen by your neighbor" aspect doesnt hurt much, then this card is even a lot stronger than caravan.
But if you only can get a few of them i doubt its worth a buy. In most scenarios i can imagine the worst 2 of 3 cards help less than the best one of 3 and only slightly better than one card randomly drawn.
It's really good for cycling but you are in a big danger of missing that one really important card like Witch or Mounterbank before the next reshuffle, what in my opinion makes the better cycling also not worth it.
 


Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: eHalcyon on June 13, 2013, 12:42:36 pm
I see Merchant Guild having a Goons-esque megaturn with Watchtower present.  Build an engine that gives 40 buys, and then gain 400 coin tokens.  Of course, you can't spend the coin tokens the same turn, which is why you'd want to Watchtower away to Copper.
How about KC KC MG MG MG.  That could get pretty crazy too.  Just a thought.

MG is while in play, so that's not THAT great.  That would give you +$9, +9 Buys, every buy gets you 3 coin tokens.  But then you need to use all your buys to reap a lot of coin tokens, which is difficult unless you only buy cheap cards.

So MG really likes cost reduction, as it makes it easier to take advantage of every Buy.



Winners: eHalcyon for Advisor AKA Harbinger, and LastFootnote andwilk for Journeyman AKA Gatherer.

Advisor is closer to my original version, Artificer, really. :)


I think Taxman isn't as strong as it seems on the first glare:

yes the attack part is stronger than the one from cutpurse but it leads you to difficult decisions after the first phase of the game:
do i want to turn my silver into a gold not sure if the attack will hit? but if it hits i hurts more than losing only a copper..
and compared to mine: not getting the "upgraded" treasure in hand makes a huge difference, even though you have it top decked.

I think Taxman will be decently powerful, mostly for Copper trashing + Cutpurse effect.  The option to hit other treasures and the topdeck Mine effect is just icing.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: shMerker on June 13, 2013, 12:50:26 pm
I really like how Taxman doesn't use coin tokens or have an overpay but still fits in with sort of an implicit theme of doing something with your surplus. For instance if you draw it with $5 and there are no $4s or $5s you want, you can trash the silver for a devastating attack and have a gold on your next turn.

It reminds me of the way Treasure Map, Native Village, and Treasury all played into the "next turn" theme without using the Duration mechanic.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: MarkowKette on June 13, 2013, 12:53:20 pm
I think Taxman will be decently powerful, mostly for Copper trashing + Cutpurse effect.  The option to hit other treasures and the topdeck Mine effect is just icing.

in my opinion a plain +3$ action-card is better than cutpurse in most cases, so if i take this into account
the trash a copper and cutpurse attack-effect alone would be a LOT worse than the effect of a moneylender so the topdecking mine
effect is to me what makes the card not be really bad
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Axxle on June 13, 2013, 12:55:00 pm
but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.

Baker could help, starting out with a coin token.
Merchant guild promotes a lot of buying too.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 12:56:56 pm
but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.

Baker could help, starting out with a coin token.
Merchant guild promotes a lot of buying too.

But you can't spend the coin tokens earned from Merchant Guild until the following turn, and you'd be hard pressed to play a Merchant Guild turn 2 while amassing a meaningful number of tokens.

Well, I guess you could earn tokens from Black Market purchases and still spend them in your buy phase.  Still, won't help here though.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: shMerker on June 13, 2013, 12:57:36 pm
I just noticed Merchant's Guild costs $5. For a terminal copper that seems bonkers to me. The below-the-line text must be crazy powerful to warrant that but it's not something I would have guessed.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 12:58:33 pm
I just noticed Merchant's Guild costs $5. For a terminal copper that seems bonkers to me. The below-the-line text must be crazy powerful to warrant that but it's not something I would have guessed.

More than any other card, Merchant's Guild has me thinking that Coin tokens must be incredibly useful.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: shMerker on June 13, 2013, 01:03:44 pm
I can imagine once you get an engine going it will be able to pile up a fair number. If you get two into play you now have 3 buys that, if all used, will mean you start your next turn with $6. I'm thinking comparisons to Bridge make sense, since Bridge has a similar effect to giving you +$1 for each buy you use. When I think about it that way it makes more sense for this to cost more than Bridge. Although it's not strictly better since the coin tokens can't be used until the next turn (barring stupid pet tricks with Black Market) but getting the bonus as coin tokens instead of cost reductions has it's own advantages.

Edit: Actually I'm thinking about this more and getting the bonus coins from MG will be tricky. If you did a traditional Native Village/Bridge combo but replaced the Bridges with Merchant's Guilds, now you have a turn with a bunch of buys that will get you a bonus comparable to the same number of bridges, but without another source of coin you'll have to use them on cheaper targets, because you can't apply the bonus to this turn.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: flowuhpowuh on June 13, 2013, 01:14:05 pm
Anyone a bit disappointed the advisor guy is actually on the right?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 01:46:51 pm
No VP card and no reaction, that makes me pretty sad actually.

This seems like a missed opportunity to me. Emphasis on "seems", since I wasn't involved in designing and playtesting the cards.

I wonder if Candlestick Maker would have been really overpowered with a Reaction that read, "When another player plays an Attack card, you may discard this. If you do, take 2 Coin tokens."
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Axxle on June 13, 2013, 01:49:51 pm
but the most important question is: do these cards help to empty the supply in 3 turns? stonemason is the only one that might I think.

Baker could help, starting out with a coin token.
Merchant guild promotes a lot of buying too.

But you can't spend the coin tokens earned from Merchant Guild until the following turn, and you'd be hard pressed to play a Merchant Guild turn 2 while amassing a meaningful number of tokens.

Well, I guess you could earn tokens from Black Market purchases and still spend them in your buy phase.  Still, won't help here though.
I misread this as three piling. Carry on.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: tlloyd on June 13, 2013, 01:58:52 pm
Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.

Similar to Stables in that respect. Although I'm not sure Plaza and Stables would mesh well.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Beyond Awesome on June 13, 2013, 02:03:09 pm
I will say this, I can already tell from looking at the cards, this will be a very good set and one of the best expansions ever. It might be the best of the 13-card expansions.

I am a bit surprised by the lack of alternate VP card, reaction, and also a curser that isn't on theme. Maybe with this being the last expansion, Donald couldn't fit everything in. He did say that a couple of cards from Guilds were put into DA. Maybe Beggar was the reaction and just couldn't fit in and so was moved to DA.

Of the card, I am looking forward to the most, it has to be Stonemason. Maybe it isn't as powerful as it looks, but on paper, it sounds pretty impressive. I am also looking forward to Baker, not so much to buy the card, but just because of how much it changes the opening of the game. I mean, that is literally a game-changing card right there.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Grujah on June 13, 2013, 02:03:24 pm
Reposting!
Masterpiece is so cool!

Merchant Guild - I think this will be awesome in giant Goons engines

Candlesticker is boring.

Advisor is Worse-than-Lab, I don't think it is good as it is engine card and opponent can easily disrupt your engine when you use it.

Soothsayer - do you draw a card too?

Plaza should really be 3, but it is finish this way. I guess it works in village+draw engines as you can discard extra coppers to have more money for worse turns.

Taxmen - better than Mine, I guess. That doesn't say much.

Stonemason - you want cheap engine parts? He's your guy!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 02:06:08 pm
Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.

Similar to Stables in that respect. Although I'm not sure Plaza and Stables would mesh well.

Stables nets you an extra card, though, while Plaza decreases your hand size by one.  So Plaza requires a full drawing engine to support it, while Stables is itself part of that drawing engine.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Grujah on June 13, 2013, 02:08:54 pm
Masterpiece -

It would be so much better if it were 2+.

If you pay 3, you just bought a copper. Terrible.
If you pay 4, you've just bought a Silver and Copper for additional 1$. Still Terrible.
If you pay 5, you've just got 5$ over 3 cards, which is, pretty much, a Cache. And Cache sucks?
If you pay 6, you get 3 silvers and a copper. This might be worth it, but is it better than gold? I guess if you're deck is full of curses this is awesomest?


It will be awesome with Gardens and Feodum, though.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: jonts26 on June 13, 2013, 02:10:31 pm
If you pay 5, you've just got 5$ over 3 cards, which is, pretty much, a Cache. And Cache sucks?

You take that back!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: liopoil on June 13, 2013, 02:14:28 pm
so, are you allowed to overpay by 0 for stonemason or not?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: tlloyd on June 13, 2013, 02:26:16 pm
Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.

Similar to Stables in that respect. Although I'm not sure Plaza and Stables would mesh well.

Stables nets you an extra card, though, while Plaza decreases your hand size by one.  So Plaza requires a full drawing engine to support it, while Stables is itself part of that drawing engine.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting the cards do work well together? Certainly they have complimentary effects, but as they both rely on discarding the same resource (treasure cards), they have a fair amount of anti-synergy. Or was your comment in response to my suggestion that the cards are similar? Obviously they do different things (as you said, they have nearly opposite effects), but they are similar in the respect that they become much much better once you can reliably draw your deck. Your point is well taken that Stables actually contributes to that goal much more directly, whereas Plaza provides other benefits (actions, coin smoothing). I guess the point then is that Stables is a better single-card engine while Plaza is a better component for a wide variety of multi-card engines.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 02:37:25 pm
Plaza -- simple village variant for the theme.  The Treasure discard is necessary so as not to make it superior to Bazaar.  This may be a tricky card to use optimally.  Villages want to be in engines.  Many engines will want to trash away all the Coppers; discarding the few high quality treasures in the deck would not be worth just one coin token.  But the drawback is ameliorated if you can draw the treasure back again.

Ah, this is a good point.  In a strong enough engine, you'll be able to draw back that Silver or Gold you discarded, while keeping the coin token.

Similar to Stables in that respect. Although I'm not sure Plaza and Stables would mesh well.

Stables nets you an extra card, though, while Plaza decreases your hand size by one.  So Plaza requires a full drawing engine to support it, while Stables is itself part of that drawing engine.

I'm not sure what your point is here. Are you suggesting the cards do work well together? Certainly they have complimentary effects, but as they both rely on discarding the same resource (treasure cards), they have a fair amount of anti-synergy. Or was your comment in response to my suggestion that the cards are similar? Obviously they do different things (as you said, they have nearly opposite effects), but they are similar in the respect that they become much much better once you can reliably draw your deck. Your point is well taken that Stables actually contributes to that goal much more directly, whereas Plaza provides other benefits (actions, coin smoothing). I guess the point then is that Stables is a better single-card engine while Plaza is a better component for a wide variety of multi-card engines.

The part about Stables contributing to the deck drawing.  So yes they are similar that when you can draw your deck the "downside" is eliminated, but I think Stables is going to do this much more often since it's a component of the engine itself.  So I think they'll have different functional feels when you play them
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 02:39:01 pm
I realize this might be asking too much, but could someone scan the cards so that we have a better, flat image of them for use in the wiki?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 02:43:34 pm
<-Starts writing post guessing there will be... 9 new replies by the time he is finished.
Ok, cards!
Quote
Candlestick Maker
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Take a Coin token.
I suspect this will be pretty strong, mostly because I think tokens will be strong. Let's see, how about just rushing these? I am probably emptying them, mmm, some time around turn 8. Then every 4 turns, I am gaining 10 tokens. Uh, this seems to be roughly on par with purely basic Big Money - key is to just hold off on buying provinces until you blitz them at the end. By the way, while this strategy sucks, the point on token spendage is probably pretty good - definitely don't spend them to get the better green until very late - your last shuffle really. So but ok, that strategy is terrible, I grant, but I think it shows that probably just about any deck can use this, well, not terminal draw BM, but it should be really good in both slogs and engines; this is somewhat strange, as those seem like opposite strategies. In engines, it's mostly a non-terminal copper-with-a-buy, plus a bonus, which isn't great but not terrible by any means. Actually, I bet this is best in slogs. Also good with e.g. minion.

Oh, and I'm taking longer to write this than I thought - now guessing 15 new replies before I post it.
Quote
Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.
I assume you can overpay $0, based on what Donald said about how the overpay effects stack. If you have something like Haggler in play, and you buy an overpay card, you first choose whether to trigger overpay, then you choose what order to resolve the on-buy effects, and you only choose how much to overpay when you go to resolve the overpay effect. I dunno, seems to imply 0 as a possibility. Anyway, develop is what comes to mind for the play effect. This is cheaper, but doesn't top deck (well, this is a plus if you use it to gain green), and both cards have to be cheaper. Although they don't have to be exactly $1 off. Trashes copper just as well, but sucks at trashing estates, unless for some reason you really want 0-cost cards. Actually, that might make it non-terrible in slogs, turn your estates into 2 coppers? Mmmm, seems pretty marginal even then. So I would guess pretty weak. The on-buy, well it might be pretty good. If I get $7, do I want 2 fives? Probably yeah, even if I have to take this. I suspect the on-buy will be by far the biggest use, very dependent on the other actions on the board, and then this at least trashes coppers for your engine and has *some* utility later, or can be trashed.
Also, all these on-buy combo with trader and watchtower, just throwing that out there.

Quote
Doctor
Types: Action
Cost: $3+
Name a card. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash the matches. Put the rest back on top in any order.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look at the top card of your deck; trash it, discard it, or put it back.
As I said in the previews, I think this will be a VERY strong early trasher, on-buy pretty marginal.

Quote
Masterpiece
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3+
Worth $1.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain a Silver per $1 you overpaid.
Ah, very interesting. For 3, it's copper and terrible. Slogs will buy it even on $4. At 5 it's similar to cache but less spread... which makes it... uh, a tiny bit worse, since you generally do less with silver than gold, and there's less possibility of getting big benefit out of it than cache via dealing with the coppers? At 6+ that is a lot of silver, pretty good for money decks. So... good for slogs always, really good in non-mirror, decent-ish for BM, particularly BM-draw... Good-ish card overall, but not spectacular.

Quote
Advisor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses one of them. Discard that card. Put the other cards into your hand.
So... quite good? Early on, it is likely to be a peddler which cycles you rather a lot. Good. And later on, only gets better? Well, but it can make your best cards miss your reshuffle, essentially, which is potentially a very steep price, worse than I think a lot of people realize. Which means you want to have relatively even distribution of cards. Also bad if you have heavy green. So terrible in slogs, quite good for engines, not great for money, though not *terrible* there. Probably good with e.g. silver flooder-BM. So not just a blow-me-away or a build-around so much, but very good in the right spots.

Quote
Herald
Types: Action
Cost: $4+
+1 Card. +1 Action. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is an Action, play it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For each $1 you overpaid, look through your discard pile and put a card from it on top of your deck.
We saw this already, too. I think I've cooled a little since then, but I still think it's a bit above-average for a 4.

Quote
Plaza
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, take a Coin token.
The village. This will be strong - I guess it's the 2nd-best 4-cost village after Wandering Minstrel. Actually might take this over Bazaar sometimes, too. Really strong, but not at all in danger of being broken. Nice.

Quote
Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.
So, it's a cross between mine and cutpurse. Interesting. Delayed compared to mine, which it has to be for comparison, and you also miss (probably) at least $2 in buying power compared to mine this hand. Wonder how well it works with fool's gold. Well, I'm very unlikely to want it except for early, so the question is, how good is it early? Drawing it with 3 copper would be the worst, unless there's a good 2-cost. With 4, you can still buy a 3, and with 2 or fewer, your other hand is quite good and you weren't likely to buy much this turn anyway. So, solid but not great as an opener, progressively worse the longer you go. Well, and probably good for BM no draw mirrors. The attack has to be reasonably effective.

Quote
Baker
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Card. +1 Action. Take a Coin token.

Setup: Each player takes a Coin token.
Saw this as well, I am guessing middling, setup rule relatively important.

Quote
Butcher
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may trash a card from your hand and then pay any number of Coin tokens. If you did trash a card, gain a card with a cost of up to the cost of the trashed card plus the number of Coin tokens you paid.
And we saw this, it should be strong but not strong-as-related-to-other-5s. Average-ish as a 5.

Quote
Journeyman
Types: Action
Cost: $5
Name a card. Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal 3 cards that are not the named card. Put those cards into your hand and discard the rest.
Okay, this is the last of them we've seen, yeah? Like I said, a little better than catacombs. Actually probably a little better than I thought even - it's really good early.

Quote
Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.
Okay, so very interesting. This card just seems pretty weak, and I wonder if it couldn't have costed 4. Well, I am sure Donald and his playtesters know what they're doing, so I guess not. But I pointed out at some point that woodcutter that generates a coin (not coin token, like just an extra coin for your pool) is almost just the same as bridge, a little better because you get benefit out of buying free stuff and there isn't anything equivalent to the cost-0-floor, a little worse if there's cost-restricted gaining to chain with. This is similar to that, but gives a token instead of the coin-to-spend now, and it gives you a whole $1 less. Well, the token has pros, you can spend that whenever, and you do get it on the first buy, but you also can't spend it NOW. So this just looks weak. But okay, can you get lots of these and do something crazy? Well, maybe, but it will be hard to manage that, as they're terminal and don't help that much in keeping your money high. They also promote you buying cards, which doesn't help to keep being able to play multiples of these. I bet this is weak, as I just am going to want to do things better on 5 (oh, and note that bridge isn't a power 4), but might be good with really strong trashing, where you can just buy some copper and retrash them later.

Quote
Soothsayer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. Each player who did draws a card.

Seems really strong at first blush. Well, what other cards draw things for your opponent? Council Room, and I would guess that this effect is... usually worse, but relatively often much better? Governor, and that gives you a double lab, which is... probably also better generally. So, but I guess this usually depends on the trashing. If the trashing is decent, this will be pretty bad, but with no trashing, this can be dominant. I think I like this.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand, the correct number was 10, 10 new replies.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: CG19 on June 13, 2013, 02:44:23 pm
I think Stonemason is a very neat card. It has a great interaction with Border Village too. Buy BV -> gain Duchy. Trash BV with Stonemason -> gain 2 Duchies. So good.

AND, pay $8 for Stonemason -> gain 2 Border Villages -> gain 2 Duchies. THEN trash those 2 BVs for 4 Duchies.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 02:47:58 pm
Masterpiece -

It would be so much better if it were 2+.

If you pay 3, you just bought a copper. Terrible.
If you pay 4, you've just bought a Silver and Copper for additional 1$. Still Terrible.
If you pay 5, you've just got 5$ over 3 cards, which is, pretty much, a Cache. And Cache sucks?
If you pay 6, you get 3 silvers and a copper. This might be worth it, but is it better than gold? I guess if you're deck is full of curses this is awesomest?


It will be awesome with Gardens and Feodum, though.
What card wouldn't be a lot better if you made it cheaper? Well, there are some, but not many.

If it cost 2, then for...
2 it's a copper, sucks.
3 it's a silver and copper, usually sucks.
4 it's 2 silvers and a copper. VERY good.
5 it's 3 silvers and a copper. Also quite good.
6 it's 4 silvers and a copper. Really good.
...

It's just too much.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: AJD on June 13, 2013, 03:02:03 pm
Masterpiece -

It would be so much better if it were 2+.
What card wouldn't be a lot better if you made it cheaper? Well, there are some, but not many.

Border Village. Maybe Remodel?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Just a Rube on June 13, 2013, 03:04:41 pm
Masterpiece -

It would be so much better if it were 2+.
What card wouldn't be a lot better if you made it cheaper? Well, there are some, but not many.

Border Village. Maybe Remodel?
Rats.
And not just remodel, but many cards of that type (e.g. graverobber)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: dudeabides on June 13, 2013, 03:07:29 pm
I'm thoroughly disappointed that Masterpiece is a Treasure card--No chance for a KC Masterpiece.
 
(http://moneysavingmom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/KC-Masterpiece-Coupons.jpg)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Watno on June 13, 2013, 03:14:54 pm
You can overpay Potions, but not $0.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/991269/can-you-overpay-by-s0-or-potion
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 13, 2013, 03:17:10 pm
You can overpay Potions, but not $0.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/991269/can-you-overpay-by-s0-or-potion

So you can buy a Stonemason and overpay by $2P to gain two Scrying Pools. Nice!

Shame you can't do it with Philosopher's Stones.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 03:35:32 pm
You can overpay Potions, but not $0.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/991269/can-you-overpay-by-s0-or-potion

So you can buy a Stonemason and overpay by $2P to gain two Scrying Pools. Nice!

Shame you can't do it with Philosopher's Stones.

This is going to be excellent.  No more buying multiple Potions!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: dudeabides on June 13, 2013, 03:56:02 pm
The new dimensions that coin tokens and overpaying add to the game are huge, and I am really looking forward to playing with these cards. 

I am not, however, looking forward to how clunky the Goko interface will likely be with both overpaying and coin tokens.  It could be dreadful.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 04:17:30 pm
The new dimensions that coin tokens and overpaying add to the game are huge, and I am really looking forward to playing with these cards. 

I am not, however, looking forward to how clunky the Goko interface will likely be with both overpaying and coin tokens.  It could be dreadful.

iiwg, (that's if it weren't Goko), I would expect it to be pretty nice. I mean, one thing for whether you want to overpay or not, and then if you do, a little thing for how much. Coin tokens, a little box saying how many you have, you click on it to pay one.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 04:22:15 pm
I just find it interesting how swapping the +Card for a +Buy makes Candlestick Maker cost $3 less than Baker.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: ftl on June 13, 2013, 04:35:12 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 04:39:09 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: shMerker on June 13, 2013, 04:45:27 pm
I think Candlestick Maker is pretty comparable to other $2 cards like Pawn, Lighthouse, and Herbalist.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: heron on June 13, 2013, 04:49:43 pm
I don't know if this was already mentioned, but without Throne Room or King's Court in the kingdom, Merchant Guild is exactly like a Bridge with the cost reduction delayed. (Edge case: Cards that would be 0-Cost if you had played bridge)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: cluckyb on June 13, 2013, 04:51:02 pm
Lighthouse the most similar to CM. The added bonus of protection and +$1 your next turn is on par with the +1 buy +1 coin.

Also compare Market Square with Lab. That is swapping +1 Card for +1 Buy and makes it two cheaper, with a reaction thrown in. So for non terminal cards, $3 being the difference between a Card and a Buy isn't that shocking.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: StrongRhino on June 13, 2013, 04:57:59 pm
Wow. This has got 255 top member count on today. That's huge.
By the way, anyone know when we got 355?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 04:59:48 pm
Wow. This has got 255 top member count on today. That's huge.
By the way, anyone know when we got 355?
Never. But 335 was last August 16, which iirc, was the full Dark Ages cardlist.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Hockey Mask on June 13, 2013, 05:16:22 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
3 is a little more than 2.  ;)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: WanderingWinder on June 13, 2013, 05:17:59 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
3 is a little more than 2.  ;)
Naw, 3 is a LOT more than 2 - that's 50% man!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 05:22:08 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
3 is a little more than 2.  ;)

Best argument for having a threesome.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: jonts26 on June 13, 2013, 05:27:12 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
3 is a little more than 2.  ;)

Best argument for having a threesome.

THAT'S the best argument you got?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Witherweaver on June 13, 2013, 05:36:51 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
3 is a little more than 2.  ;)

Best argument for having a threesome.

THAT'S the best argument you got?

I meant to convince your other.. like "Hey, we're already using two people.. three people is just a little bit more; no biggie."
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: markusin on June 13, 2013, 06:41:50 pm
The Guilds cards! Finally! And there really is a Candlemaker. Too much to say about these cards for now.

Though some of these cards are pretty simple in terms of card text, I predict that the coin tokens will shake things up by making the game faster. The more coin tokens you get, the easier it becomes to get exactly what you want with little consequence.

I have a question about Stonemason. Can you overpay for it with a Potion? Like, can someone pay 8$ and 1 potion for Stonemason to get 2 Possessions?

I hope the secret history confirms or denies my assumption that Soothsayer was designed before marauder?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: werothegreat on June 13, 2013, 06:48:27 pm
The Guilds cards! Finally! And there really is a Candlemaker. Too much to say about these cards for now.

Technically a CandleSTICK Maker.

Though some of these cards are pretty simple in terms of card text, I predict that the coin tokens will shake things up by making the game faster. The more coin tokens you get, the easier it becomes to get exactly what you want with little consequence.

Indeed.

I have a question about Stonemason. Can you overpay for it with a Potion? Like, can someone pay 8$ and 1 potion for Stonemason to get 2 Possessions?

Yes.

I hope the secret history confirms or denies my assumption that Soothsayer was designed before marauder?

We'll have to see.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 13, 2013, 06:49:28 pm
I have a question about Stonemason. Can you overpay for it with a Potion? Like, can someone pay 8$ and 1 potion for Stonemason to get 2 Possessions?

Yes.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Awaclus on June 13, 2013, 06:52:34 pm
+Buy is important, but it's not the sort of thing you want lots of copies of (usually). That's why it's ok at a lower price.
Well, I think we'd all expect it to be lower. But 3 lower? Usually it seems to be 2, or a little more than 2.
I'd say Lab -> Market Square is more than a little more than 2.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: easwaran on June 13, 2013, 07:18:18 pm
I'm surprised no one has compared Candlestick Maker to Squire. One money (approximately), and instead of 2 actions or 2 buys, you get one of each. And the Candlestick Maker doesn't get promoted when it's killed. 2 buys is rarely better than 1 buy, and Squire isn't really good as a village, so this seems comparable. Especially since I don't yet know how much a coin token is better than a coin - the possibility of going 3/5 instead of 4/4 on consecutive turns seems quite powerful.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: markusin on June 13, 2013, 09:23:41 pm
So the Guilds cards kind of match the expectations I had about this set after seeing the previews, which was that Guilds would be filled with support cards. Whereas Dark Ages had more cards and card combos that defined strategies on their own (think Rebuild, tfb+Fortress/Rats, trasher +Market Square) and often situational, the Guilds cards are there to enhance the many strategies that we already know. In the end, coin tokens are just money. The strength of that money comes from what you buy with it.

Also, the cost jump from Herbalist to Merchant's guild is pretty steep just for delayed coin tokens. I'm guessing Merchant's guild plays out better in an engine that can afford some Pearl Divers or something. And gosh, Herbalist barely competes with Candlestick Maker, which itself has to compete with Lighthouse.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: dudeabides on June 13, 2013, 11:03:30 pm
The new dimensions that coin tokens and overpaying add to the game are huge, and I am really looking forward to playing with these cards. 

I am not, however, looking forward to how clunky the Goko interface will likely be with both overpaying and coin tokens.  It could be dreadful.

iiwg, (that's if it weren't Goko), I would expect it to be pretty nice. I mean, one thing for whether you want to overpay or not, and then if you do, a little thing for how much. Coin tokens, a little box saying how many you have, you click on it to pay one.
IIWG is key.  I could see overpay simply being enacted by playing more treasure than you need to. In which case, you would have to think more carefully before playing treasure cards.  Alternatively, it could be like you suggest, and the "little thing for how much" interface being like the Zaps interface, where there is only a "+" button and no "-" button.  You're right about the coin tokens; that interface should be fine.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Gveoniz on June 14, 2013, 12:59:46 am
soothsayer is a marauder, with curse replacing ruin and actual gold replacing spoils. and then it let others draw.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: shMerker on June 14, 2013, 02:11:57 am
"Ocean Breeze Soap: It's just like taking an ocean cruise, only there's no boat and you don't actually go anywhere"
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Fuu on June 14, 2013, 02:24:53 am
Sounds like Guilds is about to go up on Goko.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8325.msg256106#msg256106
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Dsell on June 14, 2013, 03:11:21 am
I think people are ragging on Stonemason's on-play a bit much. It's niche, but not bad. How often in a slog or the end-game would you like to trash a gold to gain 2 duchies?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: timchen on June 14, 2013, 04:54:09 am
Advisor is the 4th lab variant (first 3: Caravan, HP, Stables). I feel it's quite a bit worse than Caravan except extremely early on. Notice that you are bound to have your good cards discarded, so a deck without thinning probably can't work with advisor. Your opponent can easily cut off your chain by discarding Advisors.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Davio on June 14, 2013, 05:02:32 am
I think people are ragging on Stonemason's on-play a bit much. It's niche, but not bad. How often in a slog or the end-game would you like to trash a gold to gain 2 duchies?
Well, how much on-play can you expect out of a $2 card? (that isn't Chapel, Hamlet, Haven, Native Village, Courtyard or Pawn)?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 14, 2013, 06:16:05 am
I think people are ragging on Stonemason's on-play a bit much. It's niche, but not bad. How often in a slog or the end-game would you like to trash a gold to gain 2 duchies?
Well, how much on-play can you expect out of a $2 card? (that isn't Chapel, Hamlet, Haven, Native Village, Courtyard or Pawn)?

The only ones that seem straight up bad to me (and not just situational) are Vagrant and Pearl Diver, and they're harmless cantrips.

Stonemason is one of the situational ones.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Watno on June 14, 2013, 06:23:41 am
Vagrant (and maybe Pearl Diver) are situationally nice with Mystic.
Title: No victories or reactions
Post by: crj on June 14, 2013, 07:03:05 am
No VP card and no reaction, that makes me pretty sad actually.
Hmm. Yeah.

Maybe there could have been a Tunnel variant. Victory-Reaction, worth 1VP per n coin tokens you have at end of game.When you discard this other than during a Clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a coin token.

Call it "Insurance Policy", perhaps? But what would n have to be?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Bron on June 14, 2013, 07:56:15 am
In case someone missed it - Guilds are already on GOKO :-P
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: brokoli on June 14, 2013, 08:14:19 am
In case someone missed it - Guilds are already on GOKO :-P
And if someone bought it yet, can he please host a game to play with me ? I can't wait to try the guilds cards ! (I'm currently on goko)
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 14, 2013, 10:11:03 am
Advisor is the 4th lab variant (first 3: Caravan, HP, Stables).

You're forgetting Alchemist.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Voltaire on June 14, 2013, 10:56:06 am
Advisor is the 4th lab variant (first 3: Caravan, HP, Stables).

You're forgetting Alchemist.
Or is he?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Tables on June 14, 2013, 10:56:53 am
Having just played it on Goko, Masterpiece + Feodum is as crazy good as you might expect it to be. I played someone who wasn't competing me on it, and by turn 18 I'd bought eight 12 point Feodums and empied the Masterpieces. I had Wharf support, which is probably about the best support you can get, but it still seems like a notable combo, probably better than Trader, since it gives you something useful to do with those $7 hands with one buy.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Qvist on June 14, 2013, 11:03:51 am
Yeah, the cards are here.

Candlestick Maker
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+1 Action. +1 Buy. Take a Coin token.

So this compared to Pawn 3 out of the 4 options, but without being able to draw. Or this is a Squire without being able to gain a Silver and get 1 of each (Actions and Buys) instead of 2 of one. I think this is rather weak. It's best use may be in engines because non-terminal buy is really strong and it giving one extra coin token is really good. It comboes really well with Minion. I like it although it's not that exciting.

Stonemason
Types: Action
Cost: $2+
Trash a card from your hand. Gain 2 cards each costing less than it.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain 2 Action cards each costing the amount you overpaid.

This is crazy. First the on-play effect. It's a mostly worse Develop. Or wait. Hm, not sure if this is true. Its main use is probably trashing a Gold for 2 Duchies (or better a Platinum for 2 Provinces), so I guess it's better in the late game to get 2 victory cards. And unlike Develop they don't go on top of your deck. So this is a bonus. Still it's seems weak, but pretty tricky to play. The overpay effect is great. You basically can get 2 copies of the Action card you want for $2 more and by getting a free Stonemason. The free Stonemason is proabably mostly not want you want, but can be quite good later. But getting strong $5-$7s you will often pay $2 more to get 2 copies. It comboes with Border Village. Pay $8 to get 2 Border Villages and 2 cards costing less than it and get a Stonemason. Later you can trash the "free" Border Villages to get 2 Duchies. Crazy. I also saw already that you can overpay with Potion with is also pretty awesome. Two early Universities or Scrying Pools for $4P is pretty good. And trashing Potion cards to get 2 Vineyards is also really good.

Masterpiece
Types: Treasure
Cost: $3+
Worth $1.

When you buy this, you may overpay for it. If you do, gain a Silver per $1 you overpaid.

I love Treasure cards. This is probably not my favourite one, but it's pretty neat. $4 in slogs to get a Silver and a Copper. $5 to get 2 Silvers and a Copper (Cache gives you a Gold and 2 Coppers for the same money density) is great when Cache is great. And for $6 and more you can get a lot of Silvers. You can now empty the Silver pile with only one buy if you want to. I'm awaiting the first Trader/Feodum/Masterpiece game. Envoy BM with Masterpiece should be pretty good. You definitely want to pay $6 for Masterpiece instead of Gold.

Advisor
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Action. Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. The player to your left chooses one of them. Discard that card. Put the other cards into your hand.

Advisor is a mix of Laboratory and Envoy. This will be really good in trimmed down decks. If you have nearly no bad card in your deck, it's a really good Lab, especially if you can re-draw the discarded cards later anyway. In other decks, this is probably very bad. But with Chapel or Remake this will be very powerful.

Plaza
Types: Action
Cost: $4
+1 Card. +2 Actions. You may discard a Treasure card. If you do, take a Coin token.

The village of this set. And it's sweet. Plaza+Poor House seems really good if you extra buys. Also, if you redraw the discarded treasure again, this is a Bazaar for $5. And Plaza+Watchtower or Library is also really nice. Probably not the strongest $4 village, but it can really shine in some situations.

Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.

This a delayed Mine with an Attack effect. Oh, I like this. A Discarding Attack card that has a different feeling than all other Attack cards. The first Attack card that can trash your own cards? I think this can be really strong. Early on it's a Cutpurse. You get the $2 in the next hand instead of this, but you have trashed a Copper into a Silver. This can really shut BM down if you can build an engine around this which trashes a Gold each turn just to top-deck another Gold.

Merchant Guild
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. +$1.

While this is in play, when you buy a card, take a Coin token.

Another sweet card that reminds me of Merchant Ship. Hey, probably that's why it's named like that! Merchant Ship gives you $2 on two turns. This gives you $1 +1 Buy this turn which is worse, then it gives you at least $1, but most likely $2 or even more on the next turn. Seems weak at first glance, but expect to be very strong in engines as this is a delayed Bridge. For every card you buy this turn a following buy is reduced by one. Still seems not crazy powerful for $5, but still seems like a very good addition to your deck with cheap engine components.

Soothsayer
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $5
Gain a Gold. Each other player gains a Curse. Each player who did draws a card.

Wow this seems crazy powerful. Gains you a Gold and deals out Curses. What!? Even crazier if you can play a discarding attack afterwards. This will lead to fast games if trashing is available, similar to Govenor. It even comboes really nicely with Govenor. Can't await to play with this.


I'm really pleased how the set turned out. The art is now really better than the last couple of cards.
I'm surprised and a little bit disappointed that we had no Alt-VP card and no Reaction card, but at least we have a Treasure card.
I still can't believe that we now know all the cards of all Dominion. Thanks Donald X. for all this.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: eHalcyon on June 14, 2013, 11:20:19 am
The first Attack card that can trash your own cards?

Well, there are Mercenary and Dame Anna.  And technically all Knights can end up trashing themselves if they hit another Knight. :P
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 14, 2013, 11:28:32 am
And Urchin can trash itself.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: zporiri on June 14, 2013, 11:34:29 am
COIN TOKENS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!!!

just double provinced in a game (goko) with plaza and my only treasures were a silver and 4 coppers and only +buy was salvager. who knows if it was the right time or not to use them, but i haven't had a rush from playing dominion like that since my first king's court chain the day i got prosperity in the mail haha
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Watno on June 14, 2013, 11:41:42 am
And Urchin can trash itself.
As does pillage
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: mameluke on June 14, 2013, 12:00:53 pm
any recommended kingdoms?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Qvist on June 14, 2013, 12:34:18 pm
The first Attack card that can trash your own cards?

Well, there are Mercenary and Dame Anna.  And technically all Knights can end up trashing themselves if they hit another Knight. :P

Yeah, I meant Attacks that can trash cards from your hand. Mercenary and Dame Anna are true, still this is the first full 10 card kingdom card.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Qvist on June 14, 2013, 12:35:45 pm
Quote
Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.
So, it's a cross between mine and cutpurse. Interesting. Delayed compared to mine, which it has to be for comparison, and you also miss (probably) at least $2 in buying power compared to mine this hand. Wonder how well it works with fool's gold. Well, I'm very unlikely to want it except for early, so the question is, how good is it early? Drawing it with 3 copper would be the worst, unless there's a good 2-cost. With 4, you can still buy a 3, and with 2 or fewer, your other hand is quite good and you weren't likely to buy much this turn anyway. So, solid but not great as an opener, progressively worse the longer you go. Well, and probably good for BM no draw mirrors. The attack has to be reasonably effective.

Sorry for the double post, but oh gosh I have to say this. Taxman+Fool's Gold seems really strong.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 14, 2013, 12:53:42 pm
Quote
Taxman
Types: Action – Attack
Cost: $4
You may trash a Treasure from your hand. Each other player with 5 or more cards in hand discards a copy of it (or reveals a hand without it). Gain a Treasure card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card, putting it on top of your deck.
So, it's a cross between mine and cutpurse. Interesting. Delayed compared to mine, which it has to be for comparison, and you also miss (probably) at least $2 in buying power compared to mine this hand. Wonder how well it works with fool's gold. Well, I'm very unlikely to want it except for early, so the question is, how good is it early? Drawing it with 3 copper would be the worst, unless there's a good 2-cost. With 4, you can still buy a 3, and with 2 or fewer, your other hand is quite good and you weren't likely to buy much this turn anyway. So, solid but not great as an opener, progressively worse the longer you go. Well, and probably good for BM no draw mirrors. The attack has to be reasonably effective.

Sorry for the double post, but oh gosh I have to say this. Taxman+Fool's Gold seems really strong.

If you lose the Fool's Gold split, you could trash your own into Silver (or $5 kingdom treasures) to make your opponent discard her Fool's Gold.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Axxle on June 14, 2013, 01:10:37 pm
The first Attack card that can trash your own cards?

Well, there are Mercenary and Dame Anna.  And technically all Knights can end up trashing themselves if they hit another Knight. :P

Yeah, I meant Attacks that can trash cards from your hand. Mercenary and Dame Anna are true, still this is the first full 10 card kingdom card.
Band of Misfits?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Awaclus on June 14, 2013, 01:13:18 pm
Merchant Guild is way better than it looks like. It isn't one of the top $5s*, but it's at least average.

EDIT: *I might have to take that statement back.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: mameluke on June 14, 2013, 04:07:38 pm
Fool's Gold/Doctor also seems really strong.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: StrongRhino on June 14, 2013, 04:29:38 pm
Overpay on an early lucky 7, 8 or 9 where you don't want province is awesome.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: jamfamsam on June 14, 2013, 07:15:57 pm
PDF Rules now available on RGG.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Schneau on June 14, 2013, 07:39:15 pm
PDF Rules now available on RGG.

Link here. (http://riograndegames.com/Game/1265-Dominion-Guilds)


Quote from end of flavor text:
Quote
We hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion!

Uh, I think that the world of Dominion has finished expanding.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Dsell on June 14, 2013, 07:59:07 pm
Quote from end of flavor text:
Quote
We hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion!

Uh, I think that the world of Dominion has finished expanding.

OR HAS IT??!!!?!?!
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Axxle on June 14, 2013, 08:19:28 pm
PDF Rules now available on RGG.

Link here. (http://riograndegames.com/Game/1265-Dominion-Guilds)


Quote from end of flavor text:
Quote
We hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion!

Uh, I think that the world of Dominion has finished expanding.
Leftover flavor text from Prosperity?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: SirPeebles on June 14, 2013, 08:24:27 pm
PDF Rules now available on RGG.

Link here. (http://riograndegames.com/Game/1265-Dominion-Guilds)


Quote from end of flavor text:
Quote
We hope you enjoy this expanding world of Dominion!

Uh, I think that the world of Dominion has finished expanding.
Leftover flavor text from Prosperity?


Publisher
$4 Action-Duration

+1 action

At the start of your next turn, trash a card from your hand.  Gain a card costing up to $3 more than the trashed card.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: dondon151 on June 15, 2013, 01:39:21 pm
Question: isn't Merchant's Guild worse than Bridge? You can't TR or KC it for added effect, and though the free coins work like Bridge's cost reduction, you can't spend the coins until the next turn (meaning that big turns will come one turn later).
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: eHalcyon on June 15, 2013, 01:40:46 pm
Question: isn't Merchant's Guild worse than Bridge? You can't TR or KC it for added effect, and though the free coins work like Bridge's cost reduction, you can't spend the coins until the next turn (meaning that big turns will come one turn later).

If it was next turn only, sure. But you can save coin tokens indefinitely.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Watno on June 15, 2013, 02:18:30 pm
also, bridges don't allow you to buy copper for negative money, but buying copper with merchant guild gives you coins.
I still don't see how merchant guild is stop supposed to be good anyway.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 15, 2013, 03:54:48 pm
The idea is Bridge gives you a virtual $1 every time you buy a card, whereas Merchant guild gives you a coin token. The latter is more useful than the former, so Merchant Guild is "better" than bridge, so it has to cost more.

However I think they've got different enough utility to both cost $4. Bridge is essentially as good as $2 when you play it, since it lowers the barrier of entry into buying a card. MG doesn't do that; while you can used coin tokens saved from previous plays for that effect, this seems to be "weaker" than Bridge's instant payoff.  Also MG only works for buys, while Bridge works for all gains, which is quite a non trivial bonus. Even if Villages didn't exist, it explicitly helps with Horn of Plenty, Farmland and Stonemason, but I've used Bridge to combo with Remodel, Workshop etc. many times.

As another comparison, if MG's effect was on a cantrip, would it need to cost $6 for being "Better than highway"?
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: Awaclus on June 15, 2013, 04:11:07 pm
As another comparison, if MG's effect was on a cantrip, would it need to cost $6 for being "Better than highway"?
Yes, and also for being "Better than Baker".
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: LastFootnote on June 15, 2013, 05:01:30 pm
After playing a couple of games with Merchant Guild, I think it's sort of a chicken-and egg card. You want to buy several good cards with Merchant Guild in play so that you get more Coin tokens without diluting your deck with crap. But since Merchant Guild only gives you $1, you have to get that money elsewhere. Where? Coin tokens. Coin tokens like the ones you get from Merchant Guild.

Hence, it seems Merchant Guild strongly benefits from having a decent number of Coin tokens and therefore combos with other cards that produce Coin tokens. That way you can save the tokens to spend them when you have Merchant Guild in play, netting you a big Coin token rebate while buying good cards.


EDIT: Reposted to the Merchant Guild thread.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: NoMoreFun on June 15, 2013, 05:18:16 pm
As another comparison, if MG's effect was on a cantrip, would it need to cost $6 for being "Better than highway"?
Yes, and also for being "Better than Baker".

A straight cantrip.

I'd like to have the option to use the coin token the turn I play the card.
Title: Re: Card Photos
Post by: manthos88 on June 17, 2013, 10:39:06 am
Well... i just viewed the topic and i'm kinda glad we re gonna have a new expansion. And all the cards seem interesting. Now, i just want to display my opinion about some cards.


Masterpiece:

I noticed that some people didn't really like the card. I believe it's very good on certain decks.

It's obviously a very good slog card, but other than that - guys, Big Money!- it can be good on a BM deck when u just don't want to buy anything else for $4, or $5 and this is a very good way to kill underbuys. What you basically do is that you buy a copper accompanied by 1 or 2 Silvers, but before you guys jump to say that coppers are bad in BM decks, i want to remind you that in this kind of decks the percentage of treasure cards vs victory cards in your deck matters a lot. So, unless there are handsize reduction attacks, Masterpiece can help a lot in BM decks.

(Actually, maybe it's not worth buying a Masterpiece for $4 in BM unless it's late game, but for $5 it can be worth it.)


Another use for Masterpiece, in my opinion, is to gain cards to TfB. Apprentice and Salvager will like this card, i believe, as you can pay $4+ to gain 2+ cards that cost $3, thus provide "easy" fuel for them. I already like to use Trader for this purpose and it works nicely for me. Masterpiece will make this job even easier.


Plaza:

I have been working on draw-to-X engines lately, and Plaza is a nice addition to the card roster for this job. Discarding coppers for +coins is just what you need in draw-to-X engines and with Plaza, you can do it while gaining more actions (unlike horse traders or oasis) and the fact that you can choose whether to spend the coins this turn or another one makes it a really good card for this job.


Taxman:

This card looks really interesting and seems somewhat better than Mine to me. Even though, you don't get the upgraded treasure in your hand, it is put on top of your deck so it's ready for use immediately. The attack part is very important, especially early game, and unlike Cutpurse, the attack will still hurt late game. Overall, it's a very strong card relative to its cost, in my opinion.


Journeyman

Now, this is a nice drawing card. It has about the same use as Catacombs, but works more like a Hunting Party (as regarding in cards being skipped). Can be very strong early game for skipping those coppers or estates along with giving you 3 more cards in your hand. I wonder how Journeyman-BM would be like...


EDIT: Oh my God! just noticed!  Combo: Journeyman - Tunnel !!!
I will steal the words: "Just name Tunnel..." :D