Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Guilds Previews => Topic started by: theory on June 06, 2013, 10:12:05 am
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(http://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/butcher.png)
King Casimir only lived to be 60. Did he ever go bald? The wikipedia article doesn't say. If so though that would be in line with the 4th theme in Guilds: bald people. And one of those bald people is Butcher.
Butcher also fits the 5th theme of Guilds, which is, wordy cards. Take two coin tokens, you may trash a card, something something, gain a card, something something, man I'll just buy one, I'll figure out what it does when I play it. Butcher is a Remodel that you spend coin tokens to pump up. With enough coin tokens you can go straight from Curse to Colony. You can also just trade a card in for something at the same cost or less, while keeping the two coin tokens for later. There are a lot of ways you can go.
Butcher gives you a special use for coin tokens. That's not a theme of the set, that's just Butcher. It provides some coin tokens itself, so it's not like you have to have another Guilds card with it to make it do its thing. It's all been taken care of.
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Guilds still have Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly art. Sorry.
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So it's all optional after all.
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Ugly. Ugly. Ugly. Ugly art. Sorry.
It's a butcher. They carve up murdered creatures for a living.
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For those who can't read it:
Butcher - Action - 5
Take 2 Coin tokens. You may trash a card from your hand and then pay any number of Coin tokens. If you did trash a card, gain a card with a cost of the trashed card plus the number of Coin tokens you paid.
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Slager!
Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
mumble mumble artwork mumble mumble the way he holds the hatchet mumble mumble
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Remodel for $5 whose virtual +$2 can be saved AND increased by other coin tokens. Sounds strong to me, especially if you have a Baker or something else to get tokens from.
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Baker was whimsically anime. Butcher is hella freaky. Well played, Lynell Ingram - well played.
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I really like the card names. We've got Butcher, Baker, Doctor and Journeyman thus far. These are all in line with the theme of Guilds that could be formed within a Kingdom. Props to Donald for that aspect of the expansion.
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Guilds still have Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly art. Sorry.
I thought the artwork for Doctor was pretty good. Also, if you're buying Dominion for the card art, you're bound to be disappointed. Just set your expectations as low as they can go, that way you'll be pleasantly satisfied at worst.
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Guilds still have Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly art. Sorry.
I've tried to stop looking at the art. It's not like I look at it on other sets.
Also, did anyone else get halfway through the text of the card before getting a headache? There must be a better wording for this.
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Another interesting card. I suppose if you can play it frequently enough, you can upgrade some cards pretty dramatically. Might be a little slow without trashing/some engine.
Seems like a decent HP+X terminal at first glance. You can trash Estates or Silver in to HPs, and the tokens can of course be saved and cashed in later on.
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Find edge cases where Update is better.
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compared to remodel, I don't see any edge-cases. It's a non-mandatory Remodel if you spend your tokens directly, and there is nothing that can prevent you from gaining them.
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So it's all optional after all.
It's not all optional. If you trash a card you have to gain another card. (And you have to gain the 2 coin tokens too, but it's never an advantage not to gain those).
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Looks like eHalc was right!
It seems alright without any other Coin Token Gainers in the kingdom, but this + Baker could be potentially powerful.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
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Guilds still have Ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly art. Sorry.
I've tried to stop looking at the art. It's not like I look at it on other sets.
Also, did anyone else get halfway through the text of the card before getting a headache? There must be a better wording for this.
The wording "With a cost of up to..." sounds very strange to me.
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Remodel for $5 whose virtual +$2 can be saved AND increased by other coin tokens. Sounds strong to me, especially if you have a Baker or something else to get tokens from.
First instinct is that this will be very strong if there's another coin-taker out there; a little strong if there isn't. Just replacing a card with a same-cost card and getting 2 coins will be great. How often do we use Remodel or even Expand to replace Province with Province?
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Cornucopia, Seaside, Hinterlands and DA were all pretty good I think. In guilds we come back to the kind of art in intrigue and base.
I thought the artwork for Doctor was pretty good.
Well, I think Journeyman is fine but doctor is strange...
Weird art on this card.
I presume that is half of the patient's face we can see near the bottom left of the picture.... then moving up the left hand side of the image we see something that looks vaguely like a limp left hand lying on a dark green sheet.... then we see.... what? A knee sticking up under the sheet...? Yes it is a knee, let's just stick with that shall we...?
.... and the doctor is saying, "I'll just grind up a few more of these little blue pills for you"....
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So does butcher affect the setup the same was as baker does? I guess not. So the setup-effect stacks with more cards like baker?
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If you think about it, you juet need one more coin token to spend with Butcher and its already as good as expand.
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I like that you can swap out unused cards like Lookout/Ambassador/Chapel that have served their early game purpose while still keeping the coin tokens. I think that is a very powerful aspect of the card; the ability to change your deck while still acquiring money from the card if you don't need to upgrade the cost.
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So does butcher affect the setup the same was as baker does? I guess not. So the setup-effect stacks with more cards like baker?
Butcher does not affect the setup
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King Court + Butcher and with the 3rd butcher you trash your estate, you use your 6 tokens and you gain a Province !
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Slager!
Find edge cases where Update is better.
mumble mumble artwork mumble mumble the way he holds the hatchet mumble mumble
Assuming you meant Upgrade: Upgrade is a cantrip. So many times that will be better.
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Slager!
Find edge cases where Update is better.
mumble mumble artwork mumble mumble the way he holds the hatchet mumble mumble
Assuming you meant Upgrade: Upgrade is a cantrip. So many times that will be better.
Probably he meant remodel...
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I'm just imagining playing six Bakers and Butchering a Copper into a Province.
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So it's all optional after all.
It's not all optional. If you trash a card you have to gain another card. (And you have to gain the 2 coin tokens too, but it's never an advantage not to gain those).
Sorry, not all of it, but you still gain the tokens even if you choose not to trash a card. That's a huge plus over Remodel, which is often dead when you have nothing in your hand worth remodeling.
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According to me, it's an over-powerful Remodel, like Counterfeit was an over-powerful Moneylender (or maybe Moneylender and Remodel were over-weak Counterfeit and Butcher ?) ! Because :
->it does all Remodel do, right ? (right now you trash a card costing $X and gain a card costing up to $X+$2), and it's not even mandatory !
->of course, it's by far more flexible,
->further more, if you don't want to trash anything, you can just use it as only a CT-gainer ! Maybe not that great, but if you don't want to trash anything you don't want Remodel too !
I'm sometimes frustated cards at $4 have respective equivalents so much stronger at $5 (Moneylender -> Counterfeit, Smithy -> Torturer/Catacombs, Young Witch/Sea Hag -> Witch... and Scout ) but on the other side, it's needful this way to make $5/$2 openings as strong as $4/$3 openings. Still, I think the gap between some $4 and some $5 is wide.
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Sorry to get a little off topic but I can't really find a better place for token chat.
Has anyone yet talked about the obvious fact that Coin tokens are a big power boost for Possession? They take all the shuffle luck out of buying Possession, and then you can spend all your opponent's Coin tokens even if you don't use the money. I guess they can prevent this by always using tokens immediately but that's pretty painful especially if they wind up wasting money. Though it's probably old news to people who play with fan cards.
Anyway yeah, I'm going to love Butcher. I'll especially love using my starting Baker coin to Butcher an Estate into Baker; then use the coins from THAT Baker to turn my other Estates and Coppers into Bakers, then use THOSE coins to turn everything into Provinces. The Steak Sandwich Makers' guild is born! Now if we can just get some cheese on that.
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I'm sometimes frustated cards at $4 have respective equivalents so much stronger at $5 (Moneylender -> Counterfeit, Smithy -> Torturer/Catacombs, Young Witch/Sea Hag -> Witch... and Scout ) but on the other side, it's needful this way to make $5/$2 openings as strong as $4/$3 openings. Still, I think the gap between some $4 and some $5 is wide.
That's because it's much harder to get to $5 than it is to get to $4.
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Fun quote from BGG:
This is one I would definitely buy when Curses are in play. Exchanging a Curse for an Estate is worth 2 Victory points!!
Great card.
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I'd say this is a pretty strong card, that I want to play in just about any engine.
...which means I always want to play it ;)
I don't think other coin-takers in the kingdom will have a huge impact on Butchers strength.
I do really want cheap cards that I don't mind having in my deck (hamlet, pawn, pearl diver, vagrant, ...)
And opening 5-2 with fool's gold off course. If you ever thought Fool's Gold-remodel was good...
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Slager!
Find edge cases where Update is better.
mumble mumble artwork mumble mumble the way he holds the hatchet mumble mumble
Assuming you meant Upgrade: Upgrade is a cantrip. So many times that will be better.
Talk about misuse of words.
I thought of "the card that came before Upgrade", and as a user of the package-management system apt, what comes before Upgrade? Update.
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I'm thinking that a lot of the time it can be good to Butcher an Estate into a Silver and saving a coin. Depends on the 3$ and 4$ kingdom cards of course, but generally a good thing.
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Seems like another natural comparison is to Salvager. Salvager, due to its +1 buy, in essence allows you to do a similar sort of flexible "remodel" but allows adding whatever coin your hand generates this turn. One difference is that Butcher has a built in more flexible "+2 coin" added on, but in exchange for being a 5-cost card rather than a 4-cost card. And actually, Salvager has the advantage that the +1 buy can be used for a different purchase. And Salvager isn't forced to replace the card, allowing Salvager to trash to an odd copper without needing to replace it some other card.
I think it comes down to how powerful coin tokens are in the end. If the flexibility to save coin tokens really turns out to be key, then this card will be considered really strong. If not, I might rather have a Salvager (not that Salvager is in every kingdom, but you know what I mean).
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I'm sometimes frustated cards at $4 have respective equivalents so much stronger at $5 (Moneylender -> Counterfeit, Smithy -> Torturer/Catacombs, Young Witch/Sea Hag -> Witch... and Scout ) but on the other side, it's needful this way to make $5/$2 openings as strong as $4/$3 openings. Still, I think the gap between some $4 and some $5 is wide.
That's because it's much harder to get to $5 than it is to get to $4.
I don't mind too much if a card is 'strictly better' than another card and at a slightly higher price. The card usually has something cool about it that allows you to do more tricks with it besides it just being strictly better than it's predecessor. (e.g. Butcher: Combos much better with Baker than Remodel does).
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
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Butcher a Squire back into a Squire, gain a Familiar/Goons/Mountebank and two coin tokens.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'm hoping it's Chandler, but the two are not the same. A candlestick is a stick that holds a candle.
I doubt we'll see either, though. I'm in the process of sorting out possible names for the remaining cards.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'm expecting him to go for it and say candlestick maker.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'm hoping it's Chandler, but the two are not the same. A candlestick is a stick that holds a candle.
Details. The guy who makes the candlestick is probably a Silversmith anyway.
... which is certainly a possible name for a card, and one that's been used in multiple fan cards.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'm hoping it's Chandler, but the two are not the same. A candlestick is a stick that holds a candle.
Details. The guy who makes the candlestick is probably a Silversmith anyway.
... which is certainly a possible name for a card, and one that's been used in multiple fan cards.
Goldsmith - in your buy phase, coin tokens produce $1 more
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
Edit: doesn't work, as pointed out below, it says "up to the cost", so doing the above would force gaining a zero-cost card.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'm hoping it's Chandler, but the two are not the same. A candlestick is a stick that holds a candle.
Details. The guy who makes the candlestick is probably a Silversmith anyway.
... which is certainly a possible name for a card, and one that's been used in multiple fan cards.
Goldsmith - in your buy phase, coin tokens produce $1 more
Maybe if you had to make a choice between gaining coin tokens and buffing coin tokens.
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
Won't work. The wording is 'up to' which there are cards which cost up to $1, namely copper.
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
You'd gain a card costing up to $1. So probably just your Copper again, unless you're really eyeing a Ruin.
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Don't rule out Shrubbery-maker in this expansion, we all know there's quite the market out there for shrubberies that could require a guild to organize and keep up with demand.
Edit: I love google, put in "Shrubbery" and the first thing after the wikipedia article is this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UbtcmjfKa8)! Goko should take lessons from them on knowing what people actually want.
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Great card! You can swap out curses for copper and gain two coin tokens to save for latter. Turn estates into silvers and save a token or turn estates into a decent $2 card. This seems like a nice gainer card to me.
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What I am most curious about is the impact of coin tokens in Colony games.
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
Won't work. The wording is 'up to' which there are cards which cost up to $1, namely copper.
Yep, you're right. My bad. I didn't read it closely enough. I was thinking it was more like a variable Upgrade/Remake, but it is not.
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Get an early Province. Butcher it for coins. You're draining the Province pile and simultaneously building up coins for a massive remodel of (less than $5)->Province. Butcher provides a really interesting form of endgame acceleration.
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Great card! You can swap out curses for copper and gain two coin tokens to save for latter. Turn estates into silvers and save a token or turn estates into a decent $2 card. This seems like a nice gainer card to me.
Ooh, Estate into Silver plus a token. This will be really nice when you only wanted to Remodel up $1 anyhow, which is fairly common.
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A chandler may have been a trader of candlesticks rather than the maker.
The butcher seems more complicated than a remodel and it might gives you more choice but it might be easier to play due to the flexibility. It operates under far less constraints than remodel. It might be particularly good when trashing an estate for a useful 2 cost card with the coins held over for a big purchase.
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I also love the fact that you don't have to trash anything, so if you somehow get your deck thinned enough or all your good cards are in your hand, you can still gain two coin tokens.
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
You'd gain a card costing up to $1. So probably just your Copper again, unless you're really eyeing a Ruin.
Although I'm a little surprised Donald X felt the need to take this option out, even when the card text was so long already. It's not THAT strong of an option (pretty clearly weaker than Junk Dealer or even Upgrade trashing, unless coin tokens are way stronger than I think) and it does carry significant opportunity cost. Maybe there's some nasty interaction I'm not seeing?
I also love the fact that you don't have to trash anything, so if you somehow get your deck thinned enough or all your good cards are in your hand, you can still gain two coin tokens.
Yeah this is nice design. I would have been disappointed if there weren't a Coin token "Terminal Silver" here, but blending it with a Remodel variant is brilliant, especially in an expansion that has room for so few cards.
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I'll be taking another look at Transmutes if there are desirable Potion cards in play.
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It's Candlestick Maker, and it's one of the $2 cards.
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Get an early Province. Butcher it for coins. You're draining the Province pile and simultaneously building up coins for a massive remodel of (less than $5)->Province. Butcher provides a really interesting form of endgame acceleration.
You get two coin tokens when you play the butcher but you do not get coin tokens per 1$ the trashed card costs, you just remodel the card and add the amount of coin tokens you pay to the maximum cost.
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It's Candlestick Maker, and it's one of the $2 cards.
And, how do you know this?
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It's Candlestick Maker, and it's one of the $2 cards.
And, how do you know this?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5806.msg251179#msg251179
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
My question is, will it be called "candlestick maker" to fit with the silly rhyme, or will it be "chandler" to fit with what they were actually called?
I'll be there for you....
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It's Candlestick Maker, and it's one of the $2 cards.
And, how do you know this?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5806.msg251179#msg251179
That is really, really straining things. Especially given there's one that doesn't fit.
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you can trash a copper with this and pay one token and gain nothing (barring poor house isn't in the kingdom), then the next time you play it it's an expand. trashing coppers one at a time is slow (i.e. develop) but having an expand is pretty nice. or you turn a 4 into a 5 and have an expand the next time.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
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you can trash a copper with this and pay one token and gain nothing (barring poor house isn't in the kingdom), then the next time you play it it's an expand. trashing coppers one at a time is slow (i.e. develop) but having an expand is pretty nice. or you turn a 4 into a 5 and have an expand the next time.
As noted above, since it says "up to," you cannot dump a copper and gain nothing.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
Chances are saving the coin tokens are better than trashing your coppers, but trashing your ruins and curses into coppers sounds like a plan while building up your coin economy. Of all the cards previewed so far, this is one I am looking forward to playing with the most.
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Oh, here is a fun trick. Butcher a copper, spend one coin token. Gain a card costing 1 coin, which is no card in most kingdoms. So, if you draw it without a better target, you can still trash out a copper and get a coin token out of the deal. Might not be the right play in all cases, but might make sense in some cases.
You'd gain a card costing up to $1. So probably just your Copper again, unless you're really eyeing a Ruin.
Although I'm a little surprised Donald X felt the need to take this option out, even when the card text was so long already. It's not THAT strong of an option (pretty clearly weaker than Junk Dealer or even Upgrade trashing, unless coin tokens are way stronger than I think) and it does carry significant opportunity cost. Maybe there's some nasty interaction I'm not seeing?
I also love the fact that you don't have to trash anything, so if you somehow get your deck thinned enough or all your good cards are in your hand, you can still gain two coin tokens.
Yeah this is nice design. I would have been disappointed if there weren't a Coin token "Terminal Silver" here, but blending it with a Remodel variant is brilliant, especially in an expansion that has room for so few cards.
It would be more work to keep the option in, because he would have to say "exactly" rather than "up to". That would be 2 extra characters!
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It's Candlestick Maker, and it's one of the $2 cards.
And, how do you know this?
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5806.msg251179#msg251179
That is really, really straining things. Especially given there's one that doesn't fit.
Ha ha! What's more likely? That Butcher, Baker, and Doctor coincidentally work out exactly right, including their costs? Or that Journeyman was a last-minute name change/card swap? There's skepticism, and then there's being obtuse.
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Fun quote from BGG:
This is one I would definitely buy when Curses are in play. Exchanging a Curse for an Estate is worth 2 Victory points!!
Great card.
I just saw another one plotting to spend five coin tokens for a Mint to avoid to on-buy penalty. Man, I always sort of thought the "penalty" was the primary reason to get a Mint.
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Butcher it for coins.
I'm pleased that we've decided that Butcher is to be considered a verb, like Remodel and Expand and so on.
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Lastfootnote, this is the first I've seen of the BA, BU, CM, and DO. Where did those come from?
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Get an early Province. Butcher it for coins. You're draining the Province pile and simultaneously building up coins for a massive remodel of (less than $5)->Province. Butcher provides a really interesting form of endgame acceleration.
You get two coin tokens when you play the butcher but you do not get coin tokens per 1$ the trashed card costs, you just remodel the card and add the amount of coin tokens you pay to the maximum cost.
Right. You Butcher Province->Province, which results in your deck being the same, the Province pile being one less, and you having an extra $2 in coins. Next time, you can Butcher $4->Province. Or, you can drain another Province, and the third Butcher play upgrades a $2 (!) to an Province.
This is like a Salvager with a Remodel effect that you can save up. That's massive for endgame acceleration.
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Butcher it for coins.
I'm pleased that we've decided that Butcher is to be considered a verb, like Remodel and Expand and so on.
But butcher is a verb in the English language already.
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Butcher it for coins.
I'm pleased that we've decided that Butcher is to be considered a verb, like Remodel and Expand and so on.
But butcher is a verb in the English language already.
It's easy to butcher the English language regardless.
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Lastfootnote, this is the first I've seen of the BA, BU, CM, and DO. Where did those come from?
Onigame's set generator. Check out the first post of that linked thread.
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Lastfootnote, this is the first I've seen of the BA, BU, CM, and DO. Where did those come from?
Onigame's set generator. Check out the first post of that linked thread.
Hmm. I have no idea how to turn your link into pairs of letters.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
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Butcher it for coins.
I'm pleased that we've decided that Butcher is to be considered a verb, like Remodel and Expand and so on.
Also the meme thread is about to get inundated with "I got so Baked I bought a T1 Goons" etc.
Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
Nor does Mine cost a Coin token for this service. I mean yeah Butcher provided that token itself, but that doesn't mean you have to squander it.
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I think a lot of people are forgetting that the coin tokens you get from Butcher can be used to buy things as well. You don't have to just save them up to use with Butcher, but can instead use them to smooth out buys and get big hands for Provinces, etc. For example:
Right. You Butcher Province->Province, which results in your deck being the same, the Province pile being one less, and you having an extra $2 in coins. Next time, you can Butcher $4->Province. Or, you can drain another Province, and the third Butcher play upgrades a $2 (!) to an Province.
This is like a Salvager with a Remodel effect that you can save up. That's massive for endgame acceleration.
I'm guessing you'll usually just want to spend the coin tokens, instead of saving them up to remodel an Estate into a Province. By the time you have 6 coin tokens, you should be able to buy a Province outright, and the game will probably be near over. This kind of saving will probably be a bad idea.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
If you're trashing a Copper with Butcher, you've basically got "+$1, +1 Buy" because you're gaining two coin tokens but losing $1 in hand. Except that the buy is mandatory and you can only use your precious coin tokens on it, rather than being able to spend your other coins.
Sorry, but I'm not seeing this as a Copper trasher.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
Pretty sure this one is obvious. Scout to draw estates. Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts. Win.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
Pretty sure this one is obvious. Scout to draw estates. Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts. Win.
But a big problem will be opportunity cost. Instead of butcher, you just could have bought a scout, which is absolutely powerful...
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Get an early Province. Butcher it for coins. You're draining the Province pile and simultaneously building up coins for a massive remodel of (less than $5)->Province. Butcher provides a really interesting form of endgame acceleration.
You get two coin tokens when you play the butcher but you do not get coin tokens per 1$ the trashed card costs, you just remodel the card and add the amount of coin tokens you pay to the maximum cost.
Right. You Butcher Province->Province, which results in your deck being the same, the Province pile being one less, and you having an extra $2 in coins. Next time, you can Butcher $4->Province. Or, you can drain another Province, and the third Butcher play upgrades a $2 (!) to an Province.
This is like a Salvager with a Remodel effect that you can save up. That's massive for endgame acceleration.
Ah, I see I misunderstood your post. That is right.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
Pretty sure this one is obvious. Scout to draw estates. Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts. Win.
But a big problem will be opportunity cost. Instead of butcher, you just could have bought a scout, which is absolutely powerful...
Sure, but you can still buy a Scout after you gain one from Butcher. So you should win the Scout split getting two a turn.
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"Terminal Silver that you can save for later" sounds like a solid 4$ card already.
With the added Remodel effect it looks like a pretty strong 5$ card.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
I agree for the most part. I rarely see myself trashing coppers into $3 cost cards. Instead, I see myself saving the coin tokens for better things. I mean, I am sure there will be a few times where getting that extra engine piece is nice, especially on a board laking +Buy, but overall, using this to trash coppers sounds lame.
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You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.
There are at least two reasons that I wish I could downvote this post.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
You still have a long way to go before you catch up to me, my young padawan.
You've got him by about 800 upvotes. That what? 6 scout jokes? Throw in some lighthearted insults towards goko an you're toast.
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Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
I agree for the most part. I rarely see myself trashing coppers into $3 cost cards. Instead, I see myself saving the coin tokens for better things. I mean, I am sure there will be a few times where getting that extra engine piece is nice, especially on a board laking +Buy, but overall, using this to trash coppers sounds lame.
Except for, of course, Butchering Coppers into Estates so that you can draw more Estates with Scout, to Butcher into more Scouts.
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Butchering Curse into Copper might be a nice option to consider.
Now we see what happens when a Swindler goes honest and uses his powers for good. He becomes a, uh, a butcher. One brave man fighting to shield his customers from mislabeled horse meat.
Although I think Swindler wins if they try to go head to head. Of course 2 tokens beats Swindlers' +$2, but it's too much like trying to trash Curses as they come in, and of course there's the whole Butcher-into-Duchy thing. A sad commentary on the state of our food industry really.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
Pretty sure this one is obvious. Scout to draw estates. Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts. Win.
But then you have no estates to draw with scout... COPPERS INTO ESTATES!
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Alright, next card and another "better than X" card, this time Remodel.
The mechanic seems interesting. Like some already pointed out, this is a great endgame accelerator and probably its main use beside the usual remodeling stuff. But remodeling Estates into Silvers and saving some coins for buying when you need them or expanding cards seems also pretty good. We have to wait and see how many other Coin token generators will be there or if there is even other use for them, but this seems strong already as-is. Because what's great is that you don't even need to trash and can just use it as a terminal silver.
I mean a card "Choose one: +2$ or remodel a card" would already be worth $5 for me and Butcher is even more flexible. The competition is tough in the $5 price range. Not many cards you could compare it to. It's clearly better than Graverobber and Mine, but clearly not stronger than all the strong attacks or other power $5s, maybe about slightly above average.
The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
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I am suspending But How Does It Combo With Scout? for today, since I am a tad busy, and I feel bad about how much free respect I've gotten! (Don't upvote this post.)
Pretty sure this one is obvious. Scout to draw estates. Butcher to turn estates into more Scouts. Win.
But then you have no estates to draw with scout... COPPERS INTO ESTATES!
I beat you to it, two posts up~!
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I still think it is a decent Copper trasher, better than Remodel and tfbs like Salvager and Apprentice. But OK, I give.
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I still think it is a decent Copper trasher, better than Remodel and tfbs like Salvager and Apprentice. But OK, I give.
Sure, but those cards are all awful at trashing Copper. I suppose Salvager at least gives a +buy.
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The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family?
As noted above, Butcher is a verb.
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Alright, next card and another "better than X" card, this time Remodel.
The mechanic seems interesting. Like some already pointed out, this is a great endgame accelerator and probably its main use beside the usual remodeling stuff. But remodeling Estates into Silvers and saving some coins for buying when you need them or expanding cards seems also pretty good. We have to wait and see how many other Coin token generators will be there or if there is even other use for them, but this seems strong already as-is. Because what's great is that you don't even need to trash and can just use it as a terminal silver.
I mean a card "Choose one: +2$ or remodel a card" would already be worth $5 for me and Butcher is even more flexible. The competition is tough in the $5 price range. Not many cards you could compare it to. It's clearly better than Graverobber and Mine, but clearly not stronger than all the strong attacks or other power $5s, maybe about slightly above average.
The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
BUTCHER
Verb
Slaughter or cut up (an animal) for food: "the meat will be butchered".
Taking a cow to filet mignon is an upgrade.
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The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.
I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.
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Speaking of respect, there seems to be some error in the forum stats (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=stats). The bars are not proportional for the 10 Most "Respected". Or rather, they appear to be calibrated relative to the tenth most respected user.
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Speaking of respect, there seems to be some error in the forum stats (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=stats). The bars are not proportional for the 10 Most "Respected". Or rather, they appear to be calibrated relative to the tenth most respected user.
They look proportional to me. ≈4000 is about half of ≈2000.
EDIT: Nevermind, I was looking at the wrong graph. I think the Most Respected is the ratio of respect to post count, or something like that.
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Looks like I'm going to take my butcher to the kings court to take care of some rats. Rats turned to gold.
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I agree that this is a weak copper trasher, but on boards that there are no good $2s, it is better than remodel, because copper->estate is just TERRIBLE. If there's an engine piece at $3, the difference is even bigger.
I guess in retrospect though, you won't USUALLY want to save coins, so depending on having an extra coin probably doesn't make sense. So yeah, you are mostly right. I still super like the card though, and I think the fact that its never a dead card makes it well worth the upgrade to 5. I love remodel, but hate when I get hands like copper,copper,silver,silver,remodel.
Nobody has mentioned that this is a decent Copper trasher. Estate->Silver leaves you an extra token, with which you can Copper->Silver. Though it may often be better to save those coin tokens, especially if there is a better treasure trasher available.
That's actually pretty weaksauce. Mine does the same thing, but it allows you to keep the Silver in your hand, as well as working in other ways, and it's one of the worst $5 cards. I think if you're using Butcher to turn Copper into Silver, you're probably doing it wrong.
But this is so much more useful than Mine overall! And you could also turn copper into a $3 engine piece. Our save up more coin tokens to hit $4 or higher. The Silver example is a minimum which is still decent.
I disagree! I think Butcher will be about as good of a Copper trasher as Remodel, which is to say: very bad. If you're using it to get $3 cost cards, you're giving up a huge opportunity cost of using the coin tokens on other things, such as buying $5 or $6 cards that are going to likely help you much more than turning a Copper into a $3 card.
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Am I the only one who likes the art on Butcher and Baker? It's kind of funky.
This card look very powerful to me. Early remodels are frequently estate->silver or $3 engine, or $4 card->$5 card, so on some boards it's not going to hard to save up coin tokens with this without even trying.
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It will be interesting to see what the rules are concerning possession and coin tokens. I would not be surprised if DXV rules that the possessing player cannot play and of the possessed player's coin tokens.
That would mean that playing Butcher when possessing someone yields the possessed player 2 coin tokens. I guess you might do this to drain provinces or a third pile at the end of the game.
Just thinking out loud.
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
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You can use your opponent's Island, Masquerade, Native Village, or Ambassador. Why on Earth would he make a special rule regarding coin tokens?
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Slager!
Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).
Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.
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Maybe you guys are right about that, but he might add in a rule that says that all spent coin tokens are set aside and return to the possessed player at the end of the turn (similar to trashed cards).
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Slager!
Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).
Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.
I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Absolutely. Pretty much the only way I can think of to word the coin token rules to not allow a Possessed player to use them would be to specifically mention Possession in the rules, which just wouldn't happen.
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The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.
I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.
Alright. Thanks, I didn't know that and didn't read all comments before, still the theme doesn't fit with other cards from the remodel family. It's kind even the opposite.
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Yeah this seems extremely clear cut.
And as my earlier post said (well, I kind of waffled I guess) it's not THAT onerous because you can always spend your Coins before I get to them. Maybe one or two go to waste this way but if you're smart I should never get my hands on your tokens unless it's a calculated risk. It's unpleasant but man if Donald didn't warp the Possession rules to eliminate the Ambassador interaction then he sure won't do it for something as small as this.
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Slager!
Find edge cases where UpdateRemodel is better.
You want to Remodel more than one Curse with Pawn on the board and there is no other way to gain Coin Tokens. You want to remodel more than one Gold into Provinces and the three other players left you only one Butcher. You want to remodel Silvers on a Duke board but you don't want to spend too many 5s on Butchers (if any).
Basically in every game where you want to remodel more than one card into a card costing 2 more than it (or more than two cards if the card costs 1 more than it), without buying more than a single Remodel/Butcher, Remodel is the better choice unless there is another way to gain Coin Tokens.
I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.
I think the only edge cases would have to include its cost ($5 vs. $4) in trash-for-benefit- or remodel-type scenarios. That is, trashing the Butcher vs. trashing the Remodel.
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Yeah this seems extremely clear cut.
And as my earlier post said (well, I kind of waffled I guess) it's not THAT onerous because you can always spend your Coins before I get to them. Maybe one or two go to waste this way but if you're smart I should never get my hands on your tokens unless it's a calculated risk. It's unpleasant but man if Donald didn't warp the Possession rules to eliminate the Ambassador interaction then he sure won't do it for something as small as this.
I am quite sure Donald X confirmed that you can cash coin tokens when you possess another player.
And in my opinion, that is totally fine. You have to be careful and need to keep track of your opponent's deck, and you should not save the coin tokens when the Possession has to come.
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The artwork seems strange again and why is it called Butcher and not a verb like all the cards from the remodel family? Disappointed! Call it at least Builder or Restorer or some job who fits the theme not a guy who kinda does the opposite.
Butcher is a verb as well. A Butcher butchers.
I think getting an etremely well paid butcher to turn copper into province or something will probably usually not be the way to go, I think most of the time, you'll want to pay 0-3, maybe 4. It's pretty cool that you can get coins for remodeling curse->copper or estate->hamlet.
Alright. Thanks, I didn't know that and didn't read all comments before, still the theme doesn't fit with other cards from the remodel family. It's kind even the opposite.
A butcher takes something of little value (the life of a nonhuman animal) and creates something of greater value (meat) which is kept for herself or sold to others in exchange for money that she can then spend on what she pleases.
Of course, I don't condone this value system.
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It looks like these coin-gainers are going to like Poor House. Actually, I said that backwards - PH like coins, since they are not in your hand, they don't count agaist you.
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As noted above, Butcher is a verb.
It could also be an adjective, as in "Tired of being teased by the guys at the slaughterhouse about his long blond curls, he shaved his head. Now he's a butcher butcher."
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It looks like these coin-gainers are going to like Poor House. Actually, I said that backwards - PH like coins, since they are not in your hand, they don't count agaist you.
I guess, but are the coin tokens really any stronger than any other virtual money here, like Peddler for instance? I guess it's pretty nice that owning any coin tokens makes any PH turn a guaranteed $5, given that this is a considerable step up from the usual guaranteed $4.
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My prediction I posted on BGG:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12505363#12505363
Butcher and baker. We are getting a candlestick maker, right?
That will be the one that lets you overpay to buy it, turning each overpaid coin into a coin token.
I'm hoping candlestick maker has interesting interactions with jack of all trades.
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I'm not sure what you mean. Butcher gives you 2 coins every time you play it, so you can always get the same benefit as Remodel.
Yeah, for some reason I thought you only get the 2 coin tokens on buy. :/
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Well, it's usually a bad idea to butcher the Princess.
Errr, not to say that it's a good idea to butcher your Harem either. Respect the ladies!
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I will hesitate to butcher Princess because she is a price card, you should want to keep them, otherwise, gain the Duchy. Harem is a victory card, so I will hesitate to butcher a Harem as well.
But I am German so I will not hesitate committing a genocide and butcher a whole village.
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Well, it's usually a bad idea to butcher the Princess.
Unless, of course, you're Sir Lancelot.
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Absolutely. Pretty much the only way I can think of to word the coin token rules to not allow a Possessed player to use them would be to specifically mention Possession in the rules, which just wouldn't happen.
Well, the rules often refer to interactions with specific cards from other sets (e.g. the Dark Ages booklet discusses about 19 ways Ambassador works with Ruins, Knights, etc.) Although I suppose you could argue those are just clarifications of principles inherent in the cards.
I see the logical consistency that Coin Tokens should be no different from Amb, Masq, etc. But this is an entirely new mechanic - those are all Cards, and as far I can tell there has never been a game action you could take that wasn't playing a card, or the result of it. So the designer can designate the location, availability or plane of existence of these coins however he wants, and could treat them as analogous to trashed cards, or VP, if he wanted. Presumably none of us has seen the rules yet.
Of course if Mr Anderson is correct that 515 has spoken on this, that settles that.
Goodbye. Mr Anderson.
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It looks like these coin-gainers are going to like Poor House. Actually, I said that backwards - PH like coins, since they are not in your hand, they don't count agaist you.
I guess, but are the coin tokens really any stronger than any other virtual money here, like Peddler for instance? I guess it's pretty nice that owning any coin tokens makes any PH turn a guaranteed $5, given that this is a considerable step up from the usual guaranteed $4.
I don't think coins offer anything over virtual coin in that situation other than the flexibility as already discussed. Perhaps being non-card based, so it doesn't take an action is helpful, since DC is terminal.
I was just pointing out an interaction, attempting to lure the conversation back from the grammar pit.
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515
?
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515
?
DXV
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I will hesitate to butcher Princess because she is a price card, you should want to keep them, otherwise, gain the Duchy. Harem is a victory card, so I will hesitate to butcher a Harem as well.
But I am German so I will not hesitate committing a genocide and butcher a whole village.
Harsh, dude - you are definitely the only one who can make that joke!!
Anyway, none of us have had any problem discarding and trashing all these characters for years. Butchering them is just the next step.
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515
?
DXV
Yeah those Roman numeral things just confuse me...
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http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12483638#12483638 (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12483638#12483638)
I looked up the source. (Regarding my post about coin tokens and Possession.)
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I would be very surprised about that.
You make the decsions for your opponents. There's no reason why you can't make him use coin tokens.
Yeah this seems extremely clear cut.
And as my earlier post said (well, I kind of waffled I guess) it's not THAT onerous because you can always spend your Coins before I get to them. Maybe one or two go to waste this way but if you're smart I should never get my hands on your tokens unless it's a calculated risk. It's unpleasant but man if Donald didn't warp the Possession rules to eliminate the Ambassador interaction then he sure won't do it for something as small as this.
I am quite sure Donald X confirmed that you can cash coin tokens when you possess another player.
And in my opinion, that is totally fine. You have to be careful and need to keep track of your opponent's deck, and you should not save the coin tokens when the Possession has to come.
Hm, Possessions interaction with coin-token cards is kind of interesting. The possessor gains the cards, but the possessed player gains the coin tokens. I wonder if there will be Guilds cards where the token gaining happens at times other than when you play the action (i.e., when you buy cards). There is no real harm in playing Baker during your Possession turn as you can just spend the coin tokens, so it's not as bad as the VP tokens. But you would have to avoid a card that says "While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a coin token" or something to that effect.
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I will hesitate to butcher Princess because she is a price card, you should want to keep them, otherwise, gain the Duchy. Harem is a victory card, so I will hesitate to butcher a Harem as well.
But I am German so I will not hesitate committing a genocide and butcher a whole village.
Harsh, dude - you are definitely the only one who can make that joke!!
Except there are lots of germans here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y15qbM33ORs
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I will hesitate to butcher Princess because she is a price card, you should want to keep them, otherwise, gain the Duchy. Harem is a victory card, so I will hesitate to butcher a Harem as well.
But I am German so I will not hesitate committing a genocide and butcher a whole village.
Harsh, dude - you are definitely the only one who can make that joke!!
Except there are lots of germans here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y15qbM33ORs
Good point, guess I meant "You are the only ones..." Or maybe "You are the only Ones..."
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12483638#12483638 (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/12483638#12483638)
I looked up the source. (Regarding my post about coin tokens and Possession.)
Thank you. Mr Anderson.
That seems clear enough then!
And the list of reasons to hate Possession only grows...
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Well, it's usually a bad idea to butcher the Princess.
Unless, of course, you're Sir Lancelot.
I'm not sure which version of King Arthur you read, but in my version, Lancelot used quite a different verb on the princess.
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Well, it's usually a bad idea to butcher the Princess.
Unless, of course, you're Sir Lancelot.
I'm not sure which version of King Arthur you read, but in my version, Lancelot used quite a different verb on the princess.
This is the internet the modern era any time or any place, where any verb can be used to have sexual implications.
fake edit: inb4 someone edge cases this
real but lightning edit: I edge cased her! [/trolling]
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I really don't want to know what "butcher" would be a euphemism for.
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Well, it's usually a bad idea to butcher the Princess.
Unless, of course, you're Sir Lancelot.
I'm not sure which version of King Arthur you read, but in my version, Lancelot used quite a different verb on the princess.
This version, of course: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jO1EOhGkY0
Edit: Can start at around 2:40 if you're impatient.
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It seems like the 5th theme of this set (after bald people, etc.) is shaping up to be: nominally $4 cards that cost $5 because they use coin tokens (Remodel -> Butcher, hypothetical $4 Peddler -> Baker).
It could be a good yardstick for fan card designs that use coin tokens... E.g. a Feast-variant that gives +5 coin tokens, spend any number of tokens to gain a card of that cost?
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I like that you can use Butcher as +2 coin tokens if you want to. It looks pretty strong just because of that alone. Remodel isn't bad, but it gets constrained very quickly and isn't good at Copper trashing without good $2 cards. Where Remodel would be a dead card because you have plenty of good cards you don't want to trash, Butcher can still give +$2. I think that ability to get pure money is going to be the key strength, and the variable-Remodel strength is more of a bonus.
Works very nicely with Dark Ages trash effects, but then again so do all the trash for benefits.
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Hm, Possessions interaction with coin-token cards is kind of interesting. The possessor gains the cards, but the possessed player gains the coin tokens. I wonder if there will be Guilds cards where the token gaining happens at times other than when you play the action (i.e., when you buy cards). There is no real harm in playing Baker during your Possession turn as you can just spend the coin tokens, so it's not as bad as the VP tokens. But you would have to avoid a card that says "While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a coin token" or something to that effect.
Its not that new, same thing happened with VP chips.
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Hm, Possessions interaction with coin-token cards is kind of interesting. The possessor gains the cards, but the possessed player gains the coin tokens. I wonder if there will be Guilds cards where the token gaining happens at times other than when you play the action (i.e., when you buy cards). There is no real harm in playing Baker during your Possession turn as you can just spend the coin tokens, so it's not as bad as the VP tokens. But you would have to avoid a card that says "While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a coin token" or something to that effect.
Its not that new, same thing happened with VP chips.
The nuance here is that if the possessing player wants access to those coins, he has to do it during that same possessed hand - he doesn't get to add them to his deck (like a gained card) or token pile (sans mat). It is sort of a half-step between VP chips, which he doesn't get, and cards, which he does get. Tokens, he doesn't get, but he can use.
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Hm, Possessions interaction with coin-token cards is kind of interesting. The possessor gains the cards, but the possessed player gains the coin tokens. I wonder if there will be Guilds cards where the token gaining happens at times other than when you play the action (i.e., when you buy cards). There is no real harm in playing Baker during your Possession turn as you can just spend the coin tokens, so it's not as bad as the VP tokens. But you would have to avoid a card that says "While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a coin token" or something to that effect.
Its not that new, same thing happened with VP chips.
Right, my point was, the coin tokens are a vulnerability with Possession on the board. You have to spend them or your opponent will spend them for you. But they (or token-given cards, actually) could also be a protection if the token gaining happened at different times. (So that your opponent couldn't spend them while you're Possessed.)
Edit: I guess the real thing I'm thinking of is that if there were a card that would gain coin chips at the end of your turn, you may be able to manage a deck that can provide no coin when your opponent Possesses you (assume you trash all your treasure). Of course, it would require some engine where you'd play enough to get 8 coin tokens at the end of your turn, and of course you played Outpost, then you buy a province during your Outpost turn.
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Hm, Possessions interaction with coin-token cards is kind of interesting. The possessor gains the cards, but the possessed player gains the coin tokens. I wonder if there will be Guilds cards where the token gaining happens at times other than when you play the action (i.e., when you buy cards). There is no real harm in playing Baker during your Possession turn as you can just spend the coin tokens, so it's not as bad as the VP tokens. But you would have to avoid a card that says "While this is in play, when you buy a card, gain a coin token" or something to that effect.
Its not that new, same thing happened with VP chips.
The nuance here is that if the possessing player wants access to those coins, he has to do it during that same possessed hand - he doesn't get to add them to his deck (like a gained card) or token pile (sans mat). It is sort of a half-step between VP chips, which he doesn't get, and cards, which he does get. Tokens, he doesn't get, but he can use.
Right. So you just use all their hard-earned tokens.
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I don't think you want to use other cards' coin tokens for this. If you wanted expensive cards, you could just use the coin tokens to buy the cards. The real strength here, like remodel, is shifting from VP to useful cards and shifting from useful cards to VP.
I don't think you want to spend many coin tokens, and preferably you don't spend any at all.
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I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used :(
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I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used :(
how could you ignore it ^^ its so new and interesting. I would have bought it just for fun and see how it workes out.
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I used some blanks as proxies for this and other Guilds cards IRL.
Butcher got ignored though, so I didn't get to see it used :(
how could you ignore it ^^ its so new and interesting. I would have bought it just for fun and see how it workes out.
I bought the other three cards (Went Merchant Ship/Baker with a single $7 Doctor buy) and wanted to win the game. I was hoping my opponent would buy it. Game was actually really fast, I only got 2 bakers and 1 MS, didn't have time for another 5.
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I imagine Butcher could be a good Big Money variant (of course not as good as the good drawers).
In the beginning, use it to turn Estates into Silvers. After that it's at worst a terminal Silver, but with skillfull play of the gold coins it can be much more.
Later it can even out the 7s and turn golds into Provinces.
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Okay, so remodel. Remodel is a card I undervalue, I know. I tend to think of it as a not too strong 4-cost, and while vaguely that's right, I know that it can be pretty useful in a lot of cases - particularly engines. This card obviously improves on that in a number of ways. Basically, in a lot of decks, even a decent number of engines, remodel isn't so hot because there is this lull in the midgame where it doesn't have stuff to do. Endgame, it turns stuff into points. Early, it turns estates into engine components. But in the middle it sits. This solves that problem by building up value. It can also build up some value by saving a coin when you turn those estates into villages or whatnot. I *really* don't think you'll end up pumping up coppers very often. Actually, nice $2 cards (think hamlet, squire) can really help this, as you get to keep both tokens. Well, anyway, you still don't want to go 6-cost ->province too often, so I actually think this still isn't all *that* hot for endgames, though obviously better than remodel.
The second big asset of the card is just pile trashing. Now, this is more of a thing on green cards, but you can shorten out the game. he issue here might be, speeding the end of the game via province->province is something you want to do when you're ahead, but engines can tend to get behind. Well, I suppose this helps in an engine mirror. You also might be able to chew through some duchies and dukes with this thing - use it as an anti-alt-VP strategy, and then coast into a few provinces near the end. I don't know how well that will work, but it is at least something to give some consideration to.
And of course, it's a terminal silver-to-spend-whenever. I was expecting one, though what I was really hoping for was woodcutter-but-tokens for $4. To be fair, my gut tells me that might be too strong. Actually, I am not so sure that just getting 2 tokens full stop wouldn't be a pretty good $4 card. I think the flexibility is really that good.
And so I actually think that this is in many ways going to be the biggest use of the card, and that a lot of times, what you want to do with this is play something maybe similar to those decks where backer will shine - Big Money without terminal draw. Basically, a few choice terminals plus the best cantrips plus a good amount of silver and gold, go for provinces pretty quick. But baker wants good 4-cost terminals (a la monument, militia, cutpurse, and their ilk), this wants good 4-cost cantrips (caravan, tournament, peddler if possible). Incidentally, fishing village is pretty nice in these decks, too - lets you get more terminals. And probably in such decks, you go ahead and estate->silver, and well, it's a simple strategy that ought to be good. The nice thing going for this deck is that it can just dive for green very fast - it can always go province->province with a quite nice bonus, and the coin tokens help you from stalling too much as well. I actually think this will be *better* than most terminal-draw big money, though maybe the best few (vault, embassy, wharf - well, wharf is bananas and quite likely you have an engine) will probably be stronger than it for BM. It should combine nicely with courtyard-BM
Having said all of that... I actually kind of think this won't be that good. Or maybe I should say, won't be a power card. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's good, but the problem with this will be the same as with most other 5s, and that is the opportunity cost of a $5 is very high.
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I think it will be best on boards with no +Buy, giving you more use for your Coin tokens.
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I would like to see some of the good players and/or Dominion programmers analysing BM+Butcher vs BM+Monument.
I would think that Butcher gets the Provinces a bit faster with Estate->Silver, clever saving of the coins and Gold->Province.
But even with Duchy dancing I wouldn't think it's quite fast enough to beat the extra points from Monument plays.
The price difference is also a big deal. Butcher costs 5$, so with a 4-3 opening the Estate-> Silver comes relatively late.
I would probably open Monument-Silver with 4-3 and Butcher-nothing with 5-2 and then go for a combination of the two (and get a Butcher and a Monument instead of 2 Monuments or 2 Butchers).
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The only thing I wish was different about this card is that it would be nice to get an extra reward to downgrade a card. Like, turning a Peddler into a Gold could get you an extra 2 tokens. I guess that would be too wordy though.
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The only thing I wish was different about this card is that it would be nice to get an extra reward to downgrade a card. Like, turning a Peddler into a Gold could get you an extra 2 tokens. I guess that would be too wordy though.
you would rather butcher the peddler to a province and take the 2 coins for you buy or you rnext butcher.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
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I butcher my trusty steed.
mhhhh
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
Kalbausweider?
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Bauer. Replace artwork accordingly. Good riddance.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
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It would make sense if the Butcher would slice up something big (a single card worth at least X) and create smaller, but very nice parts out of it, say 2 cards costing up to $1 less than the trashed card, kind of like a reverse Forge. At least that would be somewhat thematic.
I don't see at all how I'm supposed to connect Butcher to the actual text on the card...
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly. Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
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It would make sense if the Butcher would slice up something big (a single card worth at least X) and create smaller, but very nice parts out of it, say 2 cards costing up to $1 less than the trashed card, kind of like a reverse Forge. At least that would be somewhat thematic.
I don't see at all how I'm supposed to connect Butcher to the actual text on the card...
I disagree. You would consider an entire cow useless as a personal buy; you would pay a good deal for a prime piece of meat. Butcher takes something, cuts it up, and makes it more valuable to the consumers.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly. Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?
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Butcher a Baker - get a Harem!
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Also
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20240121/butcher.png)
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Also
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20240121/butcher.png)
Pretty close. If Iso had guilds, this would be the art for Butcher for sure.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly. Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?
Yes, but you can take Butchering a verb to be butchering the process of performing the action corresponding to that verb.
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(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724105805/diablo/images/3/38/Butcher.JPG)
AHHHHHHHH.... FRESH MEAT
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Pretty close. If Iso had guilds, this would be the art for Butcher for sure.
I'm pretty sure Iso did have Guilds for playtesting, so there was art even if it wasn't visible to the public.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly. Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?
Yes, but you can take Butchering a verb to be butchering the process of performing the action corresponding to that verb.
In other words, someone butchered the naming of this card, and additionally butchered the English language in going so.
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(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080724105805/diablo/images/3/38/Butcher.JPG)
AHHHHHHHH.... FRESH MEAT
Man, Butcher is overpowered.
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I wonder if any players will hesitate to butcher, say, a Noble Brigand. A Jester? The Ambassador? Maybe an entire Village?
Or Princess, or Harem.
Or, of course, Scout. No one wants to see that dude harmed.
Great, Dominion meet cannibalism.
Butchering a Princess seems more logical than Butchering inanimate objects.
Which in turn is more logical than butchering things which aren't objects at all (I guess they aren't things either). How do you butcher an expand? What is 'an expand'? But eh, who cares.
"To butcher" can also mean to mess something up horribly. Like, I really butchered that expansion job by expanding my Colony into an Estate.
Yes, but this entirely misses the point. Butchering an expansion - fine. Butchering an expand - wuzuhuh?
Yes, but you can take Butchering a verb to be butchering the process of performing the action corresponding to that verb.
In other words, someone butchered the naming of this card, and additionally butchered the English language in going so.
Man, that just means this card name works on a metalevel. DXV is, like, way over our heads, dude. He sees the whole forest while we're just here pondering bark on trees.
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He sees forests where we see treeses. And bark up the wrong oneses.
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
This is great illustration of why German is such a pain to learn. Anyone (non-German) want to memorize these for tomorrow and try to remember which is which?!
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
This is great illustration of why German is such a pain to learn. Anyone (non-German) want to memorize these for tomorrow and try to remember which is which?!
Hm, German is a hard language to learn, but not being able to remember which one is which has nothing to do about the language. I'm German and I can't remember which one is which either.
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
This is great illustration of why German is such a pain to learn. Anyone (non-German) want to memorize these for tomorrow and try to remember which is which?!
Hm, German is a hard language to learn, but not being able to remember which one is which has nothing to do about the language. I'm German and I can't remember which one is which either.
I think it has a lot to do with the language... not sure why Joel limited his challenge to non-German speakers... seems the trick is that all 6 of them have very similar-sounding names, much more so than their English counterparts.
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
And now every time I play Develop, I will think of electron configurations.
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It's cool how the trashing option for Butcher is not mandatory, allowing this card to simply be the terminal silver's-worth-of-coin-tokens card.
As cool as it sounds to be able to turn an Estate or even a Copper into a Province, it's actually a pretty weak use of Butcher since you have the option of simply spending your coin tokens during your buy phase. Butcher trashing is good in the same situations as Remodel and Salvager trashing, not Altar trashing. The strength of Remodel and Salvager is to get value out of your good cards to get even better cards. If you use Butcher to trash a Copper and spend 8 coin tokens to get a Province in return, you essentially just played a Trade Route that gave 0$ coins.
Consider another example, where you have a hand of Copper-Copper-Copper-Butcher-Gold and you have 6 coin tokens. You play Butcher and gain 2 more coin tokens. Now, if you trash a Copper to gain Province with the 8 coin tokens, you can proceed to buy a Duchy during the buy phase, but if you trash the Gold and spend the 2 coin tokens to get a Province in return, you can use the remaining 6 coin tokens with the Coppers to buy a second Province.
I'm curious to know how much complexity coin tokens themselves bring into the game. They smooth out buys, possibly leading to LESS hesitation when say you have 6$, but you really want a 5$ card. I feel like the complexity involved in Guilds has to do more with allowing for more optimization, rather than Dark Ages which is complex based on the actual strategic choices and card interactions available in it.
Edit: I open the post saying how Butcher is at least a terminal coin-token silver, then forget that it's a coin-token silver when comparing it to Trade Route. Classic. You know, this card sort of solves the Remodel problem of what to do with it in the early game.
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I suspect that Copper->Province &c. will be useful in Coin token engines with no +buy.
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I'm skeptical that coin token engines with no +buy are going to be very good in general. I mean, if you're using coin tokens as your primary source of income, they're not any better than just straight-up virtual money, right?
Or maybe I'm not understanding how you intend for a coin token engine to work. Can you give an example of what you mean by that?
[edit]Ohh, I get it, nevermind. You can use "Butcher Copper into Something" as a virtual +Buy, instead of just buying the Something. Got it. [/edit]
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I played a kingdom yesterday with Butcher, Peddler, Feodom, Horse Traders, Crossroads, etc. It was a very interesting mix where you could butcher a feodom into silvers and gain a feodom right back, or get a cheap peddler with plus buy and then butcher it into a province. A very fun kingdom to play. The rest of the kingdom was forgetable though. What cards do you think would add to the fun? Scout?
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
And now every time I play Develop, I will think of electron configurations.
I love this forum. I don't remember any I've visited where someone would actually get this joke, let alone where somebody else posts it! +1 for you!
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
And now every time I play Develop, I will think of electron configurations.
I love this forum. I don't remember any I've visited where someone would actually get this joke, let alone where somebody else posts it! +1 for you!
It's not really a joke, is it?
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this will probably be the first remodel variant which in the german version has not ***bau in its name
remodel - umbau
upgrade - anbau
rebuild - neubau
remake - nachbau
develop - aufbau
expand - ausbau
butcher - Metzger/Fleischer/Schlachter?
And now every time I play Develop, I will think of electron configurations.
I love this forum. I don't remember any I've visited where someone would actually get this joke, let alone where somebody else posts it! +1 for you!
It's not really a joke, is it?
typical thoughts:
de·vel·op [dih-vel-uhp] Show IPA
verb (used with object)
1.
to bring out the capabilities or possibilities of; bring to a more advanced or effective state: to develop natural resources; to develop one's musical talent.
2.
to cause to grow or expand: to develop one's muscles.
3.
to elaborate or expand in detail: to develop a theory.
4.
to bring into being or activity; generate; evolve.
5.
Drafting. to transfer the details of (a more or less two-dimensional design, pattern, or the like) from one surface, especially one that is prismatic or cylindrical, onto another, usually planar, in such a way that the distances between points remain the same.
and/or
German to English:
Aufbau:
composition ; construction ; building ; arrangement ; classification ; disposition ; ranging ; position ; marshalling ; superstructure ; premises ; edifice ; structure ; lot ; textile ; fabric ; cloth
as opposed to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufbau_principle
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But how is that a joke? It's just the same word being used in the same way. Or am I still missing something?