Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Archetype on April 29, 2013, 11:40:40 pm

Title: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Plagiarists Win!)
Post by: Archetype on April 29, 2013, 11:40:40 pm
RMM8 Innovation Incorporated

"You can have brilliant ideas, but if you can’t get them across, your ideas won’t get you anywhere."
-Lee Iacocca

Full-Time Employees (/in):

0. Archetype
1. ashersky Samuel Colt: 2-shot Vigilante. Bomb'ed N1.
2. Eevee
3. xeiron
4. raerae Benjamin Franklin: Semi-Innocent Child. Shot N1.
5. mail-mi Nikola Tesla: 1-shot Nexus. Lynched D1.
6. TwistedArcher
7. chairs
8. shraeye
9. Ahoppy
10. EFHW Eli Whitney: Bomb. Shot N1.
11. spiritbears John Dolland: Tracker. Modkilled D1.
12. theorel
13. nkirbt

Interns (/tag):

1. yuma
2. Jimmmmm
3. liopoil


Please read the Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before /inning. Thanks!


This setup IS a Role-Madness game, so (almost) nothing of the roles will be published. I cannot promise that it will be completely balanced, but I can promise it'll be fun! Axxle has briefly viewed the setup and it's mechanics and thought it looked good, but if a different member that doesn't want to play wants to view it, please PM me.

There will be nothing Bastard about this setup. No Jesters. No Alignment changes. No Multiball. No tricks. I will not lie in any fashion (PINL). No roles are made up, and the game itself is a pretty straight-forward and standard game of Mafia.


Mafia Ruleset (stolen and modified from eHalcyon's RMM-I intro post)

Game Rules:

General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable. This includes item combinations, items, etc.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.
3. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due to me by the posted deadline.  If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage)
See Post 2.
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase. Otherwise, I'll make the target of your night action random.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.

Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax!  Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 'bankable time'.  See http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bankable_deadline.  There is a slight twist:
Day 1 will last 21 days
Each day following is guaranteed to last 4 days
Leftover time from Day 1 will be used at the end of the 4 day period if all time has not been used
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.

Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold blue text is reserved for the Mod.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game. Just remember, this is ROLE MADNESS.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity.  They will not be issued automatically.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Helpful Links:


(Probably not as helpful as they could be, given that the set up is entirely different from any regular Mafia game.)
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: Archetype on April 29, 2013, 11:41:03 pm
Setup Specific Information

An Innovation themed game!?

If you mean the board game, then no. Well sort of. You’ll realize the theme of the game as it progresses, which is cool in itself. But anyway. The fun thing about this game is that in addition to every player being given a neat-o power role; at the end of each night they’ll be able to make their own powers by combining various objects.

Twice a night, every night, each player may tell me which objects they’d like to combine and I'll give them a list of power roles that particular combination may make. They will PM me back with which power role they think that item combination makes. One or more of the of the power roles in the list will be the correct choice, and if they choose a correct one, they will be granted that power role to be used the next night. They will be notified if that particular combination doesn't make anything. Different combinations will yield different powers, but generally stronger power roles will require more objects than weaker ones. Some objects, however, may work just fine all by themselves and all a player has to do is guess that the object will work perfectly fine as-is. But beware of scum's objects!

Regardless of the number of objects in the combination, the different combinations make will make thematic sense and shouldn’t be too difficult to guess.  I will say that the combinations themselves are also all set in stone and will be revealed at game’s end. The most a combination will vary will be whether it's scum or town so that each side can make use of the object, but it will still make thematic sense and only a few objects are split depending on alignment. Guesses you don't use will be rolled over to the following night.

To further help with guessing, small hints to potential combinations may be dropped within an object’s description and during in-game opening/closing posts. So keep your eyes peeled.

This may sound a bit complicated, but it should flow pretty smoothly. The nights may be a bit longer than normal with me having to process the different guesses, but it shouldn't be too bad.


But that’s not all folks…

In addition to all the role madness mentioned above, this game will have a No Kill N0 Start. This means that everyone will be able to use their Power Roles N0 (including combining objects), but any kills done that night are guaranteed to fail.

This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*). It may not always be wise to immediately claim that you know the specific combination for the 'Cop' power as scum can use that for their own malicious purposes... Flavor is also fairly important in this game. Not only when trying to figure out which objects match up to which power roles, but also in the general storyline as well as in PMs.

Speaking of PMs, each player’s Role PM will be fairly informal, but will still contain the Archetypical (hehe) Flavor Name, Role Name, Alignment, and Description. Flavor Name won’t necessarily be connected to alignment, but it will be heavily connected to a player's role. The Role Name is your power in Mafia terms while your alignment will depict who you will win with and your win condition. A player’s Flavor Name, Role Name, and Alignment will all be shown upon death. The Description will be a short flavorful run-down of your role and will mention any specifics a player would need to know about it. I’ll also most likely put your Inventory here which will contain all items that are in your possession. I don't have a specific uniform for descriptions, so I may describe items, power roles, combinations, certain aspects of your Role PM, slightly differently depending on how 'flavor-intensive' I'm feeling; not necessarily because of alignment.

That should be about it. I think this will be my best game yet and I’m really excited about modding it. Hopefully signups will fill quickly so we can get this show on the road!
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: ashersky on April 29, 2013, 11:43:11 pm
Is this Disney/Pixar?

Like, Monsters Inc?
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: Archetype on April 29, 2013, 11:44:35 pm
Is this Disney/Pixar?

Like, Monsters Inc?
No, but it's better. Trust me.

Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: Jimmmmm on April 29, 2013, 11:55:46 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: liopoil on April 30, 2013, 07:47:14 am
/tag
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: EFHW on April 30, 2013, 02:33:39 pm
/tag
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: mail-mi on April 30, 2013, 05:54:09 pm
/tag in for viewing playing entertainment
/tag in
/tag in
/tag in

FIF all y'all

and confirming /inness
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: Archetype on May 02, 2013, 08:59:08 pm
Alright, I added information specific to the setup. Let me know if you have any questions about it (though some can only be answered once the game has started).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open!)
Post by: Archetype on May 07, 2013, 12:18:49 am
Seems like there has been a call for signups, so I'll Bump this.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 5/13)
Post by: sudgy on May 08, 2013, 01:53:41 pm
Alright, again because of what you said in the index, /in.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 14, 2013, 06:11:41 pm
Bump!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 15, 2013, 08:22:32 pm
Bump!
Is there something here that people just don't like? If the bankable deadline thing is the issue I can easily change that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Kooshie on May 15, 2013, 09:08:38 pm
For rule #5, will we know who has been selected randomly?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Kooshie on May 15, 2013, 09:09:20 pm
Will the roles the items make be in categories, or specific roles?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 15, 2013, 10:47:02 pm
Will the roles the items make be in categories, or specific roles?
Actual Roles. I don't want to divulge too much into it until the game starts, however. I imagine that it'll be a fun little minigame in addition to the daily scumhunting. Sort of like Robz's RPG game.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 15, 2013, 10:48:01 pm
For rule #5, will we know who has been selected randomly?
Eh, probably not upfront, but if they ask, sure.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Kooshie on May 22, 2013, 07:57:39 pm
 :( This needs to start.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 22, 2013, 08:09:47 pm
:( This needs to start.
It really does!

I'll be fully updating Post 2 sometime this week. Maybe today. I'll have to see how much time I have.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 22, 2013, 08:12:19 pm
:( This needs to start.
It really does!

I'll be fully updating Post 2 sometime this week. Maybe today. I'll have to see how much time I have.
Oh. And if any spectator that has no interest in ever /inning and wants to learn the secrets behind the setup/look it over, feel free to PM me. Axxle knows the general gist of it, but I don't think he's seen the final product.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 24, 2013, 11:59:08 pm
OP#2 is fully updated for Game Start. If you're already /in or considering /inning, you may want to look it over if you have some spare time. If you need any sort of clarification, please don't hesitate to ask. Some questions, however, can only be answered (or will already be answered) once the game has begun.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 25, 2013, 12:01:53 am
Okay this just looks too dang cool

/in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: ashersky on May 25, 2013, 12:03:36 am
Vote: twisted!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Twistedarcher on May 25, 2013, 12:06:17 am
Vote: twisted!

too soon
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 7/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 26, 2013, 09:02:35 pm
Hurray it's TA!

Just 6 more and we'll be ready to go!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 7/13)
Post by: Kooshie on May 27, 2013, 08:22:14 pm
Sorry, I have to /out.  I'm going to be gone for too much of the game.  If it was to start now, when would it end?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 7/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 27, 2013, 08:33:14 pm
It probably won' start now, so I don't think it matters. It'll most likely start after Shakespeare.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 7/13)
Post by: mail-mi on May 27, 2013, 08:38:38 pm
It probably won' start now, so I don't think it matters. It'll most likely start after Shakespeare.
It will, Shakespeare has started.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 7/13)
Post by: sudgy on May 28, 2013, 04:13:49 pm
Alright, Shakespeare started, so /out.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on May 28, 2013, 09:14:32 pm
Yeah, looks like this won't start for a while. Which I'm fine with. I'm going to have my hands full running Survivor anyways!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: chairs on June 06, 2013, 10:14:20 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: yuma on June 06, 2013, 10:17:07 pm
/in

Hi chairs! I think you will enjoy this game. If you are interested as a newer player there is also another game that you may be interested in playing.

It is a simplified form of forum mafia with only 9 players and pretty standard roles. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8297.0 Join in if you are interested and welcome to the community!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: chairs on June 07, 2013, 04:45:20 pm
/in

Hi chairs! I think you will enjoy this game. If you are interested as a newer player there is also another game that you may be interested in playing.

It is a simplified form of forum mafia with only 9 players and pretty standard roles. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8297.0 Join in if you are interested and welcome to the community!

Thanks :)  I haven't played Mafia for quite a while, but I'm pretty familiar with the concept.  I think playing with folks that understand/enjoy Dominion means it should be hilariously backstabby.  I've /in'd your game as well ^_^
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: liopoil on June 07, 2013, 04:50:09 pm
do you know Tables? :P
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: mail-mi on June 08, 2013, 03:35:18 am
do you know Tables? :P
Man I so wish I could +1 this.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: chairs on June 08, 2013, 02:38:53 pm
do you know Tables? :P

No, but that name -was- the inspiration for my own.  I was reading the guild preview, saw his username, and decided if we had tables we must need chairs.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 10, 2013, 12:27:23 pm
Awesome to have you chairs! Hopefully you'll enjoy the game. Even though you've played Mafia before, this game is going to be a bit different than a standard game so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: shraeye on June 10, 2013, 12:51:59 pm
Ok, I'll do this one too.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: AHoppy on June 10, 2013, 01:03:14 pm
I'm interested, but I don't want to have 2 games going at once. So if signups are still open once the one game I'm in ends, then I'll /in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: EFHW on June 16, 2013, 10:23:02 pm
/in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: mail-mi on June 16, 2013, 10:30:31 pm
/in
Yeah! Now we just have to have all the other taggers join!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 6/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 17, 2013, 12:57:59 pm
Shweet. Yuma doesn't like RMM, so I don't think he's going to /in. But Jimmmmm or nikirbt might and sudgy might once Shakespeare ends.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: nkirbit on June 17, 2013, 08:26:32 pm
I probably will when I'm done with shakespeare.  But I don't want to be in 3 games at once.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 17, 2013, 08:30:03 pm
Cool. This won't start until that's over anyways.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: sudgy on June 18, 2013, 01:28:41 am
Will it wait until after my long V/LA?  This game looks interesting...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 18, 2013, 12:55:35 pm
Will it wait until after my long V/LA?  This game looks interesting...
Most likely yes. Kooshie's V/LA too, so we'll be waiting for her too. But once we hit 13 and someone wants /in, I'll have to kick out one of the V/LA people to get it started.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: spiritbears on June 18, 2013, 01:24:55 pm
I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 18, 2013, 02:06:30 pm
I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: sudgy on June 18, 2013, 02:12:18 pm
I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in

With the way that you make new lines like that, I read your posts as I would read poetry...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: spiritbears on June 18, 2013, 02:13:38 pm
I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
Thanks!  The combo thing is a little confusing but it sounds interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in action.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: spiritbears on June 18, 2013, 02:15:23 pm
I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in

With the way that you make new lines like that, I read your posts as I would read poetry...
Lol
My typing is often difficult to read
So I try to break it up 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 18, 2013, 02:50:29 pm
Lol
My typing is often difficult to read
So I try to break it up
That's some real deep stuff, SB.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 12/13)
Post by: AHoppy on June 18, 2013, 04:04:57 pm
Alright, I don't want to miss out on this because it sounds really cool.  Put me /in
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 10/13)
Post by: Kooshie on June 18, 2013, 09:04:08 pm
Will it wait until after my long V/LA?  This game looks interesting...
Most likely yes. Kooshie's V/LA too, so we'll be waiting for her too. But once we hit 13 and someone wants /in, I'll have to kick out one of the V/LA people to get it started.
Thanks for waiting for me! ;D But really, don't hesitate to start it without me.  I don't want to hold you up.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 12/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 18, 2013, 09:43:48 pm
This is immediately starting after RMM6, since nkirbt will /in when that's over and apparently Kooshie is back (correct me, either of you, if I'm wrong). But I didn't realize that sudgy's long V/LA was 16 days! So I think we have three options:

1. Someone replaces sudgy before the game starts.

2. We begin playing, as intended, after RMM6 finishes, and have sudgy be subbed out on Independence Day, or not at all if he dies before his V/LA.

3. We wait until sudgy gets back to start

I've listed by most favorable to least favorable. If someone from RMM6 who's not already playing wants another round of madness, they can just /in here. Number two would work fairly well, but I don't want people's perceptions to be skewed about getting sudgy lynched just so they don't have to sub him out. And number 3 is super not favorable because a lot of people (including me) will be antsy to get another game started after RMM6 ends.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Open! 12/13)
Post by: Archetype on June 18, 2013, 10:32:03 pm
Well scratch that. Kooshie's is leaving in 2 weeks. Hm.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. Need 2 or 0 more people)
Post by: nkirbit on June 18, 2013, 11:26:23 pm
Well, I just got killed in RMM6 (Boo!), so officially /in.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. See thread)
Post by: AHoppy on June 19, 2013, 02:04:15 am
I will be V/LA from the 29th through the 7th, but I should still be available sporadically throughout the day, especially in the evenings.  If that's too much of a problem, I can drop out...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. See thread)
Post by: sudgy on June 19, 2013, 02:09:42 am
I will be V/LA from the 29th through the 7th, but I should still be available sporadically throughout the day, especially in the evenings.  If that's too much of a problem, I can drop out...

Me and Kooshie's problems are worse...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. See thread)
Post by: Archetype on June 19, 2013, 02:42:35 am
That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.

As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily  prevent now.

You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. See thread)
Post by: sudgy on June 19, 2013, 02:50:14 am
That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.

As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily  prevent now.

You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?

Very limited access the first week (Disneyland), and no access the second (Camping).  So no access.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups sort of closed. See thread)
Post by: Archetype on June 19, 2013, 03:10:49 am
That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.

As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily  prevent now.

You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?

Very limited access the first week (Disneyland), and no access the second (Camping).  So no access.
Aw, darn. Well have fun!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! 11/13)
Post by: theorel on June 19, 2013, 08:52:52 am
Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime.  My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! 11/13)
Post by: spiritbears on June 19, 2013, 11:12:07 am
Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime.  My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Yay!!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: Archetype on June 19, 2013, 11:02:28 pm
Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime.  My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Yay!!
Hooray! I have a feeling you'll enjoy this one, theorel.

I'm sorry to say that I'm going to take both sudgy and Kooshie out. Nothing personal at all, but I think it'd be better for everyone as a whole if we played with the least amount of possibilities of subins as possible.

With that said, we need just one more! I've talked to a couple people who've showed some interest in joining, but I haven't had one to say if they are for sure /in or not. And if it's alright with everyone, I plan on starting this game immediately after signups have filled. If you remember, we have the No kill N0 Start, so I don't think it will collide with RMM6 and there is a bit of a lull with only a few players in games.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 19, 2013, 11:22:56 pm
Come on liopoil/Jimmmmmm we just need one more!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: Archetype on June 19, 2013, 11:23:05 pm
Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!

With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! 11/13)
Post by: mail-mi on June 19, 2013, 11:23:30 pm
Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime.  My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Never played with you.

Well, it's good to meet new people.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 19, 2013, 11:23:45 pm
Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!

With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
YEAH!

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 19, 2013, 11:26:28 pm
Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!

With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups open! One more needed!)
Post by: Archetype on June 19, 2013, 11:27:19 pm
Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!

With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)

I have to actually make the setup first
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Closed! Confirm your /inness!)
Post by: Eevee on June 20, 2013, 02:28:18 am
Confirm.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Closed! Confirm your /inness!)
Post by: theorel on June 20, 2013, 06:09:14 am
confirmed.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Closed! Confirm your /inness!)
Post by: Archetype on June 20, 2013, 03:45:42 pm
Well we're waiting for EFHW, but she's posted elsewhere, so I assume she knows.

This thread is now locked. Axxle is briefly reviewing the setup (and anyone who wants to can too), so once he's done and I've made any necessary minor adjustments, I'll send out Role PMs and the game will begin!

Thread Locked.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Signups Closed!)
Post by: Archetype on June 21, 2013, 06:03:13 pm
Role PMs are being sent out so PLEASE remember while playing that...

1. I don't follow a strict uniform for all Role PMs or powers or anything, so I'll word things differently however I want; regardless of a player's alignment. So please don't auto-lynch somebody because the wording on their claim doesn't completely add up with yours.

2. N0 Start, ya'll. You have 48 hours to get your actions in, and then a 24 hour period for combining objects. Nights won't usually be this long, but it's a new game and the weekend, so I'll be generous.

3. Flavor is important, so watch what you claim. It may be more detrimental to your team that you may think.

4. There are no made up roles, but I have put some twists on some standard roles. Still, there's nothing too insane you should be worried about.

5. Things may be a bit confusing, so if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask me. I want this first night to run as smoothly and error-free as possible.

6. Big shout out to Axxle for reviewing and tweaking this setup. I can't thank you enough.

7. Have fun! It's just a game! I'll take any action I see necessary to ensure everyone's having a good time. But the prevent rather than mitigate any problems, all you guys need to do is just remember the Civility Pledge. Thanks!


And now without further ado...the Role PMs! You may start submitting actions as soon as you receive yours. If you haven't received one in the next half an hour, let me know.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (N0 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 21, 2013, 06:06:29 pm
And to clear up any confusion:

Town is green and their wincon is: "Eliminate all threats to the Town". Town wincons aren't included in your Role PM, so look here

Scum will have their own alignment and wincon found in their Role PM.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (N0 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 21, 2013, 07:00:03 pm
Alright, they're all out.

No rush, but you have ~48 hours to get your night actions in.

Good luck!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (N0 Start!)
Post by: Axxle on June 23, 2013, 02:29:07 am
/tag
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (N0 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 24, 2013, 01:36:25 pm
In the near distant future...

A man with no name designs a Time Machine and starts up a company by the name of 'Innovation Inc.'. Using his invention he manages to hire the greatest inventors our world as ever known to bring innovation to this unoriginal world. The pay may not be great, but they all get to do the thing they all love: Invent. But looks like not everyone is as big of a boon to humanity as they are perceived...

Today is the first day of the job.


--

At the crack of dawn, the CEO gathers up all 13 employees into the main lobby with his faithful associate Archetype at his side.

"Welcome to Innovation Incorporated!" He yells. Everyone cheers gleefully.

"I hope you all were able to meet with one another last night and get to know each other. Hopefully you put those complimentary items to good use! Now then, let's get down to business. Our deadline is this week and we need to-"

The BANG! of gunfire echoed around the lobby. Everyone looked around for where it could've come from, but then Archetype yelled that the CEO had been shot. The medical staff rushes over to try and keep him alive, but it's no use. The bullet had pierced his abdomen and he was loosing blood too quickly. Archetype neels down next the CEO and grabs his head. But there was nothing they could do (health care hasn't improved much either).

In his dying breath, the CEO whispers into Archetype's ear, "...no one leaves...until my killer is caught..." The CEO gives one last breathe, then slumps over. Dead.

Archetype carefully releases the CEO's head and stands up, motioning to the medical staff to take care of the body. He grabs the microphone and shouts angrily into it, "You heard the man! Board up the windows, lock the doors, engage the alarm! No one leaves the building until we find who's responsible for this!"


Day 1 Start!


Not Voting (13) ashersky, Eevee, xieron, raerae, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, spiritbears, theorel, nkirbit.
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.


(I will remind you all one last time to make sure to read post #2 and constantly refer back to it and your Role PM. It'll be more useful than you think.)


Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 01:39:32 pm
First: first!

Second: Vote: Robz
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 01:40:26 pm
First: first!

Second: Vote: Robz
Second in. vote mai
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 01:40:55 pm
Sorry. That just had to be done
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 01:41:07 pm
First: first!

Second: Vote: Robz
Second in. vote mai
OMGUS Vote: sb
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 01:50:19 pm
Double OMGUS!!!
vote vote mai mai
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 24, 2013, 01:55:14 pm
Yay for a new game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 01:58:04 pm
Hi everyone!

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 02:06:51 pm
Yay for a new game.
Super scummy Vote: xeiron
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 02:21:17 pm
Hi everyone!
vote ta
The death cart cult does not approve
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 02:26:38 pm
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 02:27:54 pm
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Sarcasm?!?!?!?! Vote: ahops
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 02:28:04 pm
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 02:34:32 pm
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop

Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)

More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.

Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.

One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 02:36:11 pm
Well...maybe not ANY combinations, I suppose. But I'd be very careful. Just saying that people should make sure they keep their information private, and consider whether or not making something public knowledge would potentially be more beneficial to town or to scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 02:40:42 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 02:47:57 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.

I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.

I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 24, 2013, 02:49:54 pm
Vote Count 1.0

AHoppy (2) spiritbears, mail-mi

Not Voting: (11) ashersky, Eevee, xeiron, raerae, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 02:53:11 pm
Wow, that's a looooong D1. Since we're using bankable time we definitely should have a soft deadline.

The end of next week seems like it would give us enough time, but that's 4th of july for us Americans. Would before or after that weekend be better for everyone?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 02:56:19 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.

I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.

I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.

It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what.  Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck.  That's my opinion anyway.  I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.

Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today.  Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum.  Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 02:57:32 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.

I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.

I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my


Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today.  Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum.  Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win.
My favorite deli meat is ham
,
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 02:58:07 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.

I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.

I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.

It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what.  Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck.  That's my opinion anyway.  I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.

Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today.  Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum.  Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win.
My favorite deli meat is ham!

Quoting fixed
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 02:59:31 pm
Vote: mail-mi for picking the wrong favorite and claiming.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 03:01:10 pm
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 03:02:26 pm
Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 03:03:54 pm
Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
Ooh totally forgot about pastrami yep that's my favorite.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 03:04:27 pm
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 03:05:23 pm
Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong

And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 03:18:22 pm
Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong

And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
Well the turkey has to be seasoned...

And I agree, the theory talk isn't the best, but where do you suggest we start then?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 03:22:34 pm
Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong

And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
Well the turkey has to be seasoned...

And I agree, the theory talk isn't the best, but where do you suggest we start then?
We could start by lynching lurkers....that seems to get the ball rolling usually...
unvote till I can see who's avoiding our fun game here
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 03:24:08 pm
vote ash
For not immediately winning the post count race
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 03:27:02 pm
Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 03:29:04 pm
Ok. But even with the time dif is expect at least 35 posts by now...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 03:50:02 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 03:51:38 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 24, 2013, 03:53:37 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Right on cue and legitimizing my vote to boot!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 04:03:15 pm
Nice explanation, Ash.  Totally a compelling case.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 24, 2013, 04:12:44 pm
Vote Count 1.1

AHoppy (1) mail-mi
mail-mi (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (1) ashersky

Not Voting: (9)Eevee, xeiron, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 04:22:31 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Is it because she doesn't like theory?

And Unvote
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 24, 2013, 04:24:57 pm
Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what.  Seriously.  Don't do it.

TA, what theory talk are you interested in?  I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.

I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.

It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what.  Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck.  That's my opinion anyway.  I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.
Raerae and I  (for new players who don't know, we 'know' eachother in real life; and I'm literally in her house right now) have often talked to eachother about theory stuff.  The problem I find with theory talk is that people reach irreconcilable differences based on how they think about the game.  and then, Person A assumes that because Person B "isn't being reasonable, and is scummily disagreeing even though they know they're wrong."  And we run down the idiotic path of "these two are arguing; that means there's one scum in A/B!".

But theory in small doses is useful, I suppose.  Like, if somebody has discovered any quirks about this setup that are useful to know, I want to know them.  I just don't want the thread totally swamped in a useless back and forth.  I can't speak for raerae specifically, but it seems that she's essentially saying that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 24, 2013, 04:26:29 pm
Also, vote: Twistedarcher

not RVS.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 24, 2013, 04:28:00 pm
Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
Have you played with ashersky before?  Would you say ashersky is normally one of the more talkative players?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 04:29:44 pm
Also, vote: Twistedarcher

not RVS.

Then why?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 04:30:28 pm
I was assuming Ashersky was planning on coming back with reasons when he had time
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 04:38:27 pm
Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
Have you played with ashersky before?  Would you say ashersky is normally one of the more talkative players?
I played with him in my only other game I've played, which you modded... (mean girls).  In that game, yes he was pretty talkative. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 24, 2013, 04:40:34 pm
vote: shraeye

Kind of RVS (He's running the other game I'm playing).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 05:01:07 pm
So now we're all just voting without reasons but clarifying it isn't RVS? 

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:02:17 pm
I didn't kill him, I swear.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 05:06:27 pm
I didn't kill him, I swear.

What do you think about all this random not random voting?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:15:05 pm
I didn't kill him, I swear.

What do you think about all this random not random voting?

Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it.  I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.

What do you think?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 05:20:26 pm
I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 05:22:35 pm
I didn't kill him, I swear.

What do you think about all this random not random voting?

Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it.  I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.

What do you think?

Well, when somebody says they're seriously voting for somebody, I...erm...take that seriously.  Two people specifically stated their votes aren't RVS yet you still think they're joking? 

In your dream world, how would you get this game started?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:22:52 pm
Why would you be suspicious?  Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:24:10 pm
I didn't kill him, I swear.

What do you think about all this random not random voting?

Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it.  I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.

What do you think?

Well, when somebody says they're seriously voting for somebody, I...erm...take that seriously.  Two people specifically stated their votes aren't RVS yet you still think they're joking? 

In your dream world, how would you get this game started?

I'll take them seriously when they come back with reasons.  Until then, I won't.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 05:26:43 pm
Why would you be suspicious?  Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.

Obviously, this isn't like the most solid suspicion ever, but they could be throwing out there that they find someone scummy to see if anyone else will pull anything there. Like, for example, but Ashersky could be throwing Raerae out there, causing me to go and re-read Raerae's last couple of posts for something scummy, and see if anything gains momentum. It's a pretty easy way to say "Go reread this person! I think she's scummy!" but also back off and say it was actually just RVS.

I never read it as a joke...when they said it wasn't RVS I took them seriously. If there's joking about it, it's a silly misleading joke, and misleading is never good for townmembers. I really don't think either vote was a joke.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 05:27:12 pm
Why would you be suspicious?  Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.

Even though they SPECIFICALLY said their votes are not RVS? 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 24, 2013, 05:32:49 pm
With threads like this, I'm going to have to start a bible on you guys to refer to in future games  :P
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 05:33:16 pm
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*). It may not always be wise to immediately claim that you know the specific combination for the 'Cop' power as scum can use that for their own malicious purposes... Flavor is also fairly important in this game. Not only when trying to figure out which objects match up to which power roles, but also in the general storyline as well as in PMs.

I believe this post is the one everyone expected.

So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming.  Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming.  Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.

I've played every single Archetype game on f.ds (I think).  I've been on multiple teams with Archetype.  We've co-modded together.  Reading my PM, and thinking back on other games, I believe I understand where he's coming from with the post above.

(As an aside, I totally get shraeye's point for why he is generally not a fan of theory talk, which I think is inseparable from claiming.  Unlike raerae, who just has a visceral reaction to it, shraeye has a sensible reason, which is almost always true.  Players DO come up with ideas about the set-up, and then they DO try to fit everyone into it, and then they DO let that paint the way they see other players in the game.  Set-up theory is NOT scumhunting.  It is a useful tool though, if you don't let it decide who is and isn't scum for you.)

So, what do we know (publically)?  It's RMM, so we can assume no traditional "VT" roles.  There are "inventions" we make from stuff.  More stuff generally = better inventions.  We have to guess from a list to figure it out.

And that's it.  We don't know the number of scum, or scum teams.  We don't know anything whatsoever about the PRs in the game.  We don't know a bunch of other stuff.

BUT!  We do know stuff.  I know stuff.  You know stuff.  We also know about "stuff" in the context of the game.  Each of us has more information than the other.  What we don't know is how sharing that information can help town (or scum).

So.  Mass claiming.  It's a hobby of mine.  I design games with claiming in mind.  I build in fake claims into my scum roles.  As an example, in Ninjas and Samurai, a normal game, I provided fake claims within the scum flavor without ever saying "here's your fake claim!"  Because here's the thing: if a massclaim breaks the game, or ends the game with little to no effort, that doesn't make for a fun game.  So mods do their best to take that into consideration (and sometimes fail horribly, like me and what I thought was going to be the awesomest blitz game ever).

What could we mass claim here?  Roles?  Check.  Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information?  Check.  Night action Results?  Check.

What SHOULD we mass claim here?  Roles?  No way.  Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information?  Nope.  Night action Results? 

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 05:34:07 pm
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 05:37:12 pm
I agree generally with what you're saying, but how does this make Raerae scummy? Her visceral reaction to claiming is present when she's town, as well.
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:37:27 pm
Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.

Ash, you should just make this your signature or something if you're going to keep bringing it up :P
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 05:39:50 pm
I believe this post is the one everyone expected.

So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming.  Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming.  Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.

...

What SHOULD we mass claim here?  Roles?  No way.  Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information?  Nope.  Night action Results? 

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

It does seem odd that for someone who professes to be correct 100% of the time that claiming is good, you don't seem to want to claim here.
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 05:41:07 pm
I believe this post is the one everyone expected.

So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming.  Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming.  Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.

...

What SHOULD we mass claim here?  Roles?  No way.  Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information?  Nope.  Night action Results? 

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

It does seem odd that for someone who professes to be correct 100% of the time that claiming is good, you don't seem to want to claim here.

I'm correct 100% of the time given I love claiming.  I also temper that with knowing when we should and shouldn't claim.  I'm going to send yuma into a tizzy now because he's not in this game and can't post, but we would have so demolished his team had we all just followed my plan on Masons and Monks.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 05:41:27 pm
Also, hyperbole.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 06:13:15 pm
Also, vote: Twistedarcher

not RVS.

Are you SURE?? Or are you joking?
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 06:13:54 pm
I'm correct 100% of the time given I love claiming.  I also temper that with knowing when we should and shouldn't claim.  I'm going to send yuma into a tizzy now because he's not in this game and can't post, but we would have so demolished his team had we all just followed my plan on Masons and Monks.
I'll tizzy for him - no way!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 06:15:48 pm
I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this.  How so?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 06:17:28 pm
I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out.  But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 06:20:47 pm
I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this.  How so?
nvm, I see you answered this already.  It does seem to draw more attention to the voter than the votee, though.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 06:23:03 pm
I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this.  How so?

It's in reply #133 (or maybe one or two off, I remember that being an issue with us before - are your post #s still different than mine?). But basically, it could be trying to get someone else to make a case, or read a person more closely, to see if there's anything there. And it's simply enough to back off and be like "Just kidding, guys, it was a joke!" if no one comes up with anything. Ash and Shraeye also arent the two people I would pick as most likely to make a RVS-but-not-RVS joke, anyways, so it would be odd, at the very least.

Once again though I seriously doubt either was RVS or a joke
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 06:24:53 pm
I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out.  But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.

I think D2 we'll have a better idea of how claiming may or may not help us.  I think D3 we definitely claim.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 06:34:10 pm
I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out.  But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.


The puzzle aspect certainly makes it more fun. But right now, there's nothing we really gain. We favor claim, and I'm sure scum will have good fakeclaims more than likely. Combination claiming doesn't help guide us to a correct lynch today. Results claim, that could work, but once again, someone with a correct result should try to guide us to the correct lynch rather than coming out immediately. So yeah, claiming's probably not great today, and we should just play it like a normal day I suppose.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 24, 2013, 06:37:44 pm
To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well.  However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 24, 2013, 06:38:55 pm
LOL, and I see Twistedarcher mentioned the downside to flavor claim while I was writing  :P
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 06:42:04 pm
To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well.  However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.

Haha, yeah, I beat you on this. I think the only utility to this would be to catching scum in a lie later. The downside is that if roles presuppose items (which they probably do, I'm sure), it gives scum information that could help to possibly guide their NKs.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 06:46:56 pm
To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well.  However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.

Where did you get those names?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 24, 2013, 06:48:34 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.

Nice explanation, Ash.  Totally a compelling case.

I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 06:52:10 pm
Oh my gosh.  Let's mass claim everything we know and then name the scum team D1, shall we, Ash?  Because you're never ever wrong, are you?  And you've never ever fake-claimed as scum, have you?  And town has never ever lynched one of their two PRs after believing your fake-claim, have they?

Also, kermit, question in case you missed it.

Why would you be suspicious?  Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.

Even though they SPECIFICALLY said their votes are not RVS?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 06:53:02 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.

Nice explanation, Ash.  Totally a compelling case.

I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
Is this RVS?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 06:53:44 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.

Nice explanation, Ash.  Totally a compelling case.

I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.

Or you could actually try to play this game and come up with one of your own? 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 06:55:23 pm
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 07:01:09 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?

Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 07:04:53 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?

Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?

Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 07:07:32 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?

Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?

Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..

I'd love to hear his answer.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 24, 2013, 07:08:25 pm
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.

I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 07:10:23 pm
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.

I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 24, 2013, 07:10:45 pm
Vote: Xerion

Trying to out a role.  This conversation can nowhere but forcing Ash to confirm or deny the validity of your accusation.  If I'm wrong, what where you hoping to accomplish with that post.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 07:11:32 pm
vote: raerae

Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?

Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?

Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..

I'd love to hear his answer.
TA had it right.  I was trying to figure out why he didn't say more, and that was the only reason I could see
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 24, 2013, 07:13:27 pm
To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well.  However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Well, all I know is if I were making this game, Tesla would most certainly not be scum, but Edison would.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 07:14:27 pm
Vote: Xerion

Trying to out a role.  This conversation can nowhere but forcing Ash to confirm or deny the validity of your accusation.  If I'm wrong, what where you hoping to accomplish with that post.

I strongly disagree with Xeiron's post, but I don't think it comes from scum. I'd imagine scum would be much more careful about potential role-fishing, and wouldn't want to put that possibility out there, knowing that they WILL catch flak for it..
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 24, 2013, 08:01:43 pm
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.

I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.

I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.

I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 24, 2013, 08:15:38 pm
Vote Count 1.2

xeiron (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (2) ashersky, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs

Not Voting: (7) Eevee, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 08:16:41 pm
Have Eevee or theorel posted yet?

Lurkers.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 08:18:31 pm
I would really like to hear from Eevee And theorel

Vote: eevee
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 08:23:56 pm
I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out.  But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.


The puzzle aspect certainly makes it more fun. But right now, there's nothing we really gain. We favor claim, and I'm sure scum will have good fakeclaims more than likely. Combination claiming doesn't help guide us to a correct lynch today. Results claim, that could work, but once again, someone with a correct result should try to guide us to the correct lynch rather than coming out immediately. So yeah, claiming's probably not great today, and we should just play it like a normal day I suppose.

"Nothing we really gain" is probably incorrect; it's fairer to say that we won't realize what we've gained from a mass claim.  Scum, on the other hand, would gain MORE useful information out of the gate.

That's why I think the mass claim should come later.

The only way I see a mass claim work on D1 in this game is that every single town member full claims every single thing possible, then we take all that information and analyze it, THEN full claim again based on what we all learned from each other.  THEN we try to figure out the fake parts from scum.

And I think that's too hard to pull off due to the size of the endeavor, the high chance that some town refuse outright, and the risk involved in feeding all that info into raerae's hands to use against town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 24, 2013, 08:38:24 pm
To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well.  However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.

Where did you get those names?

Random famous duders from history.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:10:01 pm
You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 10:18:43 pm
You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.

What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 10:19:56 pm
Ash I still don't know why you think raerae is scummy. Can you explain this?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:23:53 pm
You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.

What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
The OP says if you guess a combination right you get a 1-shot power, in addition to your role from your PM.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 10:31:36 pm
You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.

What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
The OP says if you guess a combination right you get a 1-shot power, in addition to your role from your PM.
It doesn't necessarily say one-shot
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 10:38:33 pm
Quote
One or more of the of the power roles in the list will be the correct choice, and if they choose a correct one, they will be granted that power role to be used the next night.

That makes it sound like one shot to me.  Just how I interpreted things.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:39:17 pm
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 24, 2013, 10:42:19 pm
I'm under the impression that claiming a result may actually not be that bad.  In a normal game, you might not want to as if you claim a cop result, that means your cop is almost certainly either getting killed or at the very least roleblocked that night.  But here, if cop is just a 1-time thing you get from combining a set of items, a cop result may not be horrible as when you claim and get killed, we don't actually lose a cop, just a person who at one point was a 1-time-cop.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:43:59 pm
I'm under the impression that claiming a result may actually not be that bad.  In a normal game, you might not want to as if you claim a cop result, that means your cop is almost certainly either getting killed or at the very least roleblocked that night.  But here, if cop is just a 1-time thing you get from combining a set of items, a cop result may not be horrible as when you claim and get killed, we don't actually lose a cop, just a person who at one point was a 1-time-cop.
AND we might have a watcher to see who targets that person.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:45:37 pm
But today, we have no results from 1-shot roles.  Tomorrow we might.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 10:46:30 pm
But today, we have no results from 1-shot roles.  Tomorrow we might.
I mean from 1-shot roles gained from combinations.  There might be other 1-shot roles who may choose to be quiet for the time being depending on what else they may be able to do.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 24, 2013, 10:50:36 pm
Quote from: EFHW link=topic=8002.msg261202#msg261202
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.

Obviously you might not be able to clarify but I have no idea what you mean by this...how would wifom not throw town off just as much?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 24, 2013, 11:27:50 pm
Quote from: EFHW link=topic=8002.msg261202#msg261202
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Obviously you might not be able to clarify but I have no idea what you mean by this...how would wifom not throw town off just as much?
I'll say more D2 if it looks like it would be helpful.  I'm just trying to figure out a means of communication that would help townies maybe get items they need but still leave enough unclarity that scum wouldn't have clear targets.  Whispering would also be nice.  I bring it up now so other people can be thinking about it too.  For example, a townie gets lynched and tells their item recipe for cop during twilight ...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 24, 2013, 11:36:30 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 24, 2013, 11:55:27 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky

WIFIM for town might be good.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 24, 2013, 11:57:04 pm
Where is raerae to start yelling at people?

Everyone is giving away WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION with your "idle speculation."
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 12:09:49 am
What's "WIFOM" or "WIFIM"?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 12:16:16 am
What's "WIFOM" or "WIFIM"?

Wine In Front OF Me.  It's from The Princess Bride.  You know, poison in one cup, the one in front of me or you, blah blah blah.

It's where caught scum says "chairs is my partner!" and then dies.  Did he say that to get us to mislynch chairs?  Or did he say that so we would think he was lying and was actually saving chairs?  Or was he saying that thinking it was a lie but really isn't so we do need to lynch him?

That's WIFOM.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 12:43:11 am
Question:  Would we be in that bad of a situation if we did a no-lynch?  What is the consensus on a D1 no lynch?  Assuming there are not that many scum, we don't have a great shot at hitting scum D1, so we'll probably just kill some of our PR's.  The only reason it would be good if we mislynch town is it gives us more information, which when using all our fancy PR's at night could be useful.  Don't get me wrong, a mislynch is terrible.  We are closer to losing, but at the same time it can give town more information about the setup and what kind of things to expect in the future.  Although, for all I know, RMM may be easier to spot scum D1.  I don't know, my only mafia experience I felt D1 was kinda just a lot of mudslinging that ended in a mislynch and the information didn't help much later (I didn't look back at D1 much, but maybe I should have).  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 12:53:05 am
Question:  Would we be in that bad of a situation if we did a no-lynch?  What is the consensus on a D1 no lynch?  Assuming there are not that many scum, we don't have a great shot at hitting scum D1, so we'll probably just kill some of our PR's.  The only reason it would be good if we mislynch town is it gives us more information, which when using all our fancy PR's at night could be useful.  Don't get me wrong, a mislynch is terrible.  We are closer to losing, but at the same time it can give town more information about the setup and what kind of things to expect in the future.  Although, for all I know, RMM may be easier to spot scum D1.  I don't know, my only mafia experience I felt D1 was kinda just a lot of mudslinging that ended in a mislynch and the information didn't help much later (I didn't look back at D1 much, but maybe I should have).  Any thoughts?

I could be convinced, given the setup and RMM nature of things.

But you are just going to take a bunch of flak for even bringing it up.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 12:57:35 am
I figured I might, but I'm pleading inexperience.  I have to learn somehow, and it seems like a viable option to me.  Is it the best? No, lynching scum is the best.  But I'm know I can't read people well enough to do that D1, especially if scum are vets. 

mods:  What are we going to find out upon death?  Their role? Flavor? inventory? all of the above?  just their alignment?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 12:59:49 am
Post count!

ashersky: 14
Eevee: 0
xieron: 4
raerae: 13
mail-mi: 12
TwistedArcher: 22
chairs: 6
shraeye: 3
Ahoppy: 10
EFHW: 12
spiritbears: 10
theorel: 0
nkirbit: 8


Removed pre-game posts.  2 folks at ZERO.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 01:04:52 am
Removed pre-game posts.  2 folks at ZERO.
We can't have that.  And since I know Eevee better,
Vote: Eevee until you start participating
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 01:07:36 am
Post count!

ashersky: 14
Eevee: 0
xieron: 4
raerae: 13
mail-mi: 12
TwistedArcher: 22
chairs: 6
shraeye: 3
Ahoppy: 10
EFHW: 12
spiritbears: 10
theorel: 0
nkirbit: 8


Removed pre-game posts.  2 folks at ZERO.

Not much to take away from here.  TA is higher than normal, Eevee lower than normal.  Everyone else is okay.  EFHW hasn't had a lot of content in her posts. 

This may be the first game for most of you with Theo, but he is a serial underposter.  He just doesn't have high posting numbers.  But he usually posts in-depth, long posts.  So expect that.

Raerae at scummy 13, as expected.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 25, 2013, 01:25:05 am
Unless we have a good reason to no-lynch, I'd rather not.  I assume that the mafia have a NK, and while we certainly will be able to construct doctor roles, or roleblocking roles, or something along those lines, I don't think we should count on a NK not happening.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 01:35:16 am
Arch, are there potentially bastard roles that are constructable?  Like, can we make an invention to miller someone, or cult recruit?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 01:36:35 am
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 01:57:08 am
FWIW, Ahoppy, I asked about a no-lynch in my other game (albeit that one's AFAIK basically vanilla Mafia) and I may be our D1 lynch for it.  Apparently if you've an odd number of players, it's (usually) a bad idea.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 25, 2013, 01:58:46 am
Chairs:  Just as a heads up, you really shouldn't be talking about other games that are still going on.  There are players who are in both games, and those who aren't probably reading both anyway.  Talking about completed games is fine, though.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 02:57:46 am
I figured I might, but I'm pleading inexperience.  I have to learn somehow, and it seems like a viable option to me.  Is it the best? No, lynching scum is the best.  But I'm know I can't read people well enough to do that D1, especially if scum are vets. 

mods:  What are we going to find out upon death?  Their role? Flavor? inventory? all of the above?  just their alignment?
It's in OP#2, but Alignment, Flavor Name, and Role Name will all be revealed upon lynch and/or nightkill.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 02:59:58 am
Arch, are there potentially bastard roles that are constructable?  Like, can we make an invention to miller someone, or cult recruit?
No bastard roles whatsoever.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 08:04:45 am
I tried to post something last night, but I wasn't feeling well, and I got a new replies thing and maybe forgot to hit post again?  Anyways, it was sometime before ashersky's post.

Anyways, I find theory discussion useful and interesting in general, and am always willing to go in-depth into it.  I generally do so early because it's far more interesting than RVS (and usually helps transition out of RVS, and I don't believe it has the downside of people finding one another scummy for their positions on theory).

For this game in particular, as ash pointed out there are 3 things that can be claimed.  Roles, inventory-related things, and results.  There's of course also flavor names which are perhaps attached to inventory-related items.  But that's the claiming side of things.  I think there may be limited usefulness in claiming inventory-related things, but probably not right now.  BUT claiming is not the limit of theory talk, it's just a beginning.

There's also set-up speculation.  Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6).  I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it.  With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition).  This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.

Then there's the other part of theory.  Where we make plans and such to optimize the usefulness of PRs.  Now, in this game we know nothing about PRs.  BUT we all have these items.  There must be some way to share items, and it seems likely to me that we all have the same means of sharing them (though there may be additional ways in various PRs).  I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions).  It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have.  Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.

Of course, there are a few difficulties here.  In particular, how directed is our item sharing?  What do people need?  How do we NOT lose items that are powerful.  But I think at least some of these things merit discussion.

Finally, soft deadline.  Let's make one and try to get day1 done by then.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 08:05:53 am
*above should say sometime before ashersky's big post on claiming.  He had posted once at that time.  I'm not sure why that's relevant actually, but I was going to bring up some theory stuff, and ashersky did so...though he brought up slightly different stuff from me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 08:47:00 am
Avoiding a mass claim is the only way we won the last role madness game.   Is that right in every case ever?  Probably not.  But every time I've seen a whole bunch of people claiming, it's screwed over town.  Have I played every game ever like some people here?  Nope, sure haven't.  Does that negate my experience?  Nope, sure doesn't. 

TA, who do you think is scummiest at this point?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 09:21:26 am
I think that extreme positions are detrimental to town.  There are times for claiming, and times for not claiming.  I believe (as does everyone near as I can tell) that now is not a time for a mass-claim.  So, I'm not really sure why you bring it up every time?  Perhaps you mean something different by mass-claim than me.

I'm wondering if there might be good ways to share items which helps to create more power roles for town.  And that means that we should spread around items.  But spreading them around by say "sending an item to the next person in the sign-up list" (if such a thing is possible), would NOT presumably be a good way to do that. (gives scum excess info)

So, one possibility would be for everyone to suggest items they think might be useful based on the items in their inventory (whether received or granted by set-up).  I happen to think that would be a good way of helping us generate more power roles without giving scum excess information.  It doesn't strike me as a mass-claim, especially since you would have to determine what someone has based on what they're asking for.  Although it depends on how good players are at suggesting useful items for their current items.  And of course, it depends on how directed everyone's collaboration methods are.  Maybe this is a bad idea...and hey that's fine.  I'm not married to it, I came up with it while writing the previous post.  But are there any better ideas?  Or is everyone sold on blind collaboration and hoping?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 09:54:36 am
So far, I like the suggestion idea the best. I'm sure scum could use it to take advantage of us, but I think tow. Will probably benefit more (assuming more town than scum, more town will get items, more town with power roles).  The only issue is how would we know what to ask for? We don't know what kinds of other items are out there, and I'm not sure how it will generate any discussion. Say I ask for an item, I can't say what I need to use it for or what items I think it will combine with. And any other person isn't going to say that they can give me that, so I'm not really sure how it helps us actually catch scum. Give us more PR's, possibly. Give us more info on scum? Not really. So while I think its the best D1 idea we have, I'm not sure how much it will actually help move D1 along. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:57:14 am
I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions).  It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have.  Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.
This.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 10:10:39 am
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 10:13:15 am
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 10:13:59 am
So far, I like the suggestion idea the best. I'm sure scum could use it to take advantage of us, but I think tow. Will probably benefit more (assuming more town than scum, more town will get items, more town with power roles).  The only issue is how would we know what to ask for? We don't know what kinds of other items are out there, and I'm not sure how it will generate any discussion. Say I ask for an item, I can't say what I need to use it for or what items I think it will combine with. And any other person isn't going to say that they can give me that, so I'm not really sure how it helps us actually catch scum. Give us more PR's, possibly. Give us more info on scum? Not really. So while I think its the best D1 idea we have, I'm not sure how much it will actually help move D1 along.

This is true.  This is not scumhunting, it's theory-discussion.  Like i said, I (personally) find it more useful/interesting than RVS...but ultimately, we have to move OUT of theory-discussion and into scum-hunting.

Let's see we've had a bit of a no-lynch discussion.  We should also discuss random lynch, or is that discussion not in vogue anymore (I don't remember reading it in any recent games)?

Also, as has been suggested: Soft Deadline?  July 4th is going to get in the way.  July 3rd is actually maybe far enough out?  That gives us a week and a day.  That seems like plenty, and puts July 4th overnight, which would be nice.  So, I officially suggest July 3rd as our soft deadline.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 25, 2013, 10:17:55 am
Hi guys, I'm playing too!

I oppose any sort of claiming for now. I don't think it's necessarily a doomed idea, but you/we should have a strong reason for doing so. A lot of the speculation around it may also cause scum to infer stuff, so that's a bit bad.

I have a meta-based townread on ashersky, he seems quite aggressive and inyourface - which is how I think he intentionally plays town to "show" everyone he is town.

Raerae I don't know about, I'm leaning town too just because she seems fine with being controversial. I'm quite null on everyone else, nothing too memorable has really happened yet. I'm very pleased to see theorel back for a game!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 25, 2013, 10:19:41 am
July 3rd sounds like a fine soft deadline to me.

I firmly oppose random lynching, not only do I think it's not optimal, it's also very not fun. I'd rather play the game!

Nolynching might be viable given the RMM nature of the setup, but it could also be very very bad, so ultimately I just want business as usual. Lets make something happen, see how people react and try to find scum!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 10:21:06 am
Random lynch is even worse than nolynch imo
July 3 is ok with me
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 10:22:10 am
What would make no lynch very very bad?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 25, 2013, 10:24:12 am
What would make no lynch very very bad?
I don't know, parity stuff? We'd end up nolynching again at some point and would just have given scum extra nights to kill for nothing?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 10:28:46 am
Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky.  So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 10:39:28 am
re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it.  I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.

July 3rd is fine.

No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere.  But does that ever happen?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 10:43:02 am
Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky.  So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later.
Would you have time to do night actions before you go?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 10:45:28 am
Also re: no lynch, it does seem like sometimes we get to deadline and people vote to ensure there is a lynch when they aren't actually fully convinced.  That seems like a good time to ask oneself if no lynch might actually be ok.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 11:00:39 am
Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 11:09:47 am
Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky.  So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later.
Would you have time to do night actions before you go?

I assume we'd arrange that with Arch as needed.  I suppose I'll have access from my phone and the two of us can make that work to get that stuff done as needed.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 11:10:56 am
Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 11:11:51 am
re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it.  I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.

July 3rd is fine.

No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere.  But does that ever happen?

I'm intrigued by this concept, given that you've tempered it with "only non-obviously-good items here".

Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...

I think the concept here is that few people claim what they have to give, just perhaps stating one of the things in their inventory (not necessarily their starting item, since we've all had a wonderful trade round already :D) that they don't (yet) see a use for, and then see what people give that person and try to make cool stuff out of it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 11:13:40 am
Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
We could have several people do this so there is no single target.  Or just one person and hope we have a doctor to protect them.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 11:17:44 am
Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 11:18:52 am
I have always considered it this way:
A town-directed kill has some possibility of hitting scum.  A scum-directed kill has 0 possibility of hitting scum.  We want to maximize the number of town-directed kills in order to maximize the chance that we hit scum.  This means (IMO, which not everyone shares) that town should (generally) take every kill they can.  Determining when town should NOT take a kill that it has the opportunity to take is really where parity comes in.

In role madness, there are undoubtedly ways for town to disrupt parity.  Because town can disrupt parity, all parity arguments are essentially meaningless, and we should take every kill we can get, because that maximizes our win potential.  (again this is my OPINION.  There are potentially some unquantifiable gains from not lynching/not killing.  Galzria/Robz love the argument of "keeping town voices alive".  I believe that the quantifiable gains of extra town-directed deaths are greater than the unquantifiable gains of "town voices"...but since the latter is unquantifiable, it really may be bigger.  I acknowledge this, I just don't believe it.)

(For those unaware, here's the parity stuff.  Simplest case: 
-4 players, 1 scum (i.e. 3 town).  If town is lynched then there are 2 town v. 1 scum.  Scum kills one of the town players, and scum wins.  Each town player has a 1 in 3 chance to find the scum. 
-IF one of the town players is eliminated first then there are 2 town v. 1 scum.  Each town has a 50/50 chance of getting the scum.  if town is lynched, scum wins.  Thus, it benefits town to no-lynch and force scum to kill one of them off.

BUT this argument assumes that the town players can't stop the kill, or kill at night.  If one of those 2 unkilled town players is a doctor or vigilante, then the 3v1 situation has potential to be better for town.  A vigilante can shoot after the kill, this gives a 50/50 chance in ADDITION to the ~1/4 chance of the lynch.  If one is a jailkeeper, he can save the night kill and get the advantages of both days (if he himself isn't killed).  If one is a doctor/roleblocker same thing except guaranteed to find scum if they survive and choose correctly.

So, that's why I said that parity doesn't apply.)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 11:46:09 am
Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything.  This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
That makes a lot more sense... sorry I read wrong
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 12:17:15 pm
I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 12:18:22 pm
Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 12:20:50 pm
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 12:24:26 pm
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.

You suggested that if I request a tube, and scum has a tube, that scum won't give it to me.  He's asking whether you think scum would give me the tube if I don't say "I want a tube".
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 12:27:03 pm
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 12:36:15 pm
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?

Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.

Isn't that what I said?  Tube or no tube, scum isn't giving up items.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 12:45:36 pm
Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 12:52:00 pm
Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I brought up both those issues actually.  Scum won't give something up or we give scum something they want.  Read the quote again maybe?  Maybe it's because I wrote it, but I don't see why there is confusion with that quote.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 12:59:16 pm
Raerae, I have no strong scum or town reads at this point, unfortunately. I'm suspicious that Ashersky STILL hasn't said why he finds you scummy, but I'm thrown off by him right now, and I'm not sure whether it's more likely a scum or town move from him. I'm also still wanting to hear from Shraeye on why he non-RVS voted for me. Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.

July 3rd deadline is fine with me.

I agree with Eevee that we shouldn't random-lynch. It's less fun, as he says, and won't we just be left in the same stage D2, unless someone lucked into a successful investigation?

As for no-lynch...I think it makes a lot of sense in this game actually. One reason why is that it keeps all of the items in the game for longer. Now, we have two chances for every item to get into town hands, rather than only one chance. Whether or not this is actually worth it, I'm not sure, but it's definitely a point to consider.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 12:59:37 pm
Ah. The bulk of the quote was the first part, which I didn't see as a problem. The very past line covers the other stuff. I see that now, no confusion.  Still, I think it is something we need to address if we're planning any item discussion.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 25, 2013, 01:01:46 pm
The more town who are alive, the higher chance town will end up with items. That's intriguing and a decent reason to no-lynch if we do not have a great candidate
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 01:06:57 pm
Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 01:12:43 pm
I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 01:16:56 pm
I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 01:21:55 pm
I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 01:24:59 pm
One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 01:39:50 pm
One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.

Hmm...hadn't really considered that.  I was actually talking about something different though.  I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out.  It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each.  The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.

As for what each single player does with their items, that brings up a question of how many times it benefits a player to make a given item.  It has been stated that the results are not always 1-shot at least.  Hmm, that merits a mod-question I think:
Can a player use multiple item-generated roles at one time? (including generating the same role more than once and using it multiple times in one night)? (Also can he use an item-generated role and his given role at the same time)?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 01:42:28 pm
A player can use as many of his 'invented' roles as he wants per night in addition to any of his normal power roles.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 01:45:13 pm
Oh, I misread your point then. Yes, that's true. We definitely shouldn't give Ashersky 9 items!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 02:11:39 pm
Vote Count 1.3

xeiron (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (2) ashersky, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
Eevee (1) mail-mi

Not Voting: (6) Eevee,nTwistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 02:30:49 pm
Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not.  Don't send to people you find scummy.  Do send to your townreads.  This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender.  Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 02:33:51 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 02:35:18 pm
Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it.  That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose...  all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.

I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.

Two problems I see with it, though:

1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.

I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.

2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not.  Don't send to people you find scummy.  Do send to your townreads.  This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender.  Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 02:40:08 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 02:41:41 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 02:44:34 pm
I think that would probably actually be better. Inventory claiming would reveal a lot to scum. Especially if no combining was successful last night.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 25, 2013, 02:59:31 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 25, 2013, 03:20:38 pm
Here are the reasons that made me vote Twisted before:

Posts #92/#93
given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways

And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Two things here jumped out at me, and those are the two things I left in the quote. First, Twisted says that we should be able to skip RVS because we've had a night.  But unless people come out and immediately claim some night-result, we really don't get to skip the standard start-up.  Even if somebody found scum N0, they have to wait for the thread to fill up with posts and such, so they can build a case on their target.  Otherwise, it will be immediately obvious that the person is a PR, and it would be akin to role claiming.  And that's something you said you were against. (Not just claiming combinations, but in post #95, you say you completely agree with raerae's idea of not claiming anything).

The second thing that jumped out at me was that you stated a very staunch opinion on claiming combinations, and then IMMEDIATELY toned it down in post #93.  This put you on my suspicion radar, and I kept a closer watch on your next few posts.
More important point:
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
This was in response to mail-mi and raerae's joke about claiming that ham is good.  This is fun and silly, and a perfectly good way to start a game, but I don't like spending tons of time just joking around and cluttering up the thread.  Twisted's response to this quick exchange really stands out because, REMEMBER, he said that he hates silly RVS.  That makes this post nothing more than a distraction, and it clutters up our thread.  People can recall in the MeanGirls Mod QT, that I was consistently pointing out that long cluttered threads really only help scum, because nobody ever wants to do a reread.

Last item:
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
I don't get this, Twisted says that he understands raerae's position on theory talk (which is post #98 by her), but disagrees with how useful it is.  "The uselessness of theory talk" IS raerae's position.  You can't simultaneously agree with her but disagree with her main point.  This post is just pure appeasement.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 03:34:38 pm
Yes, RVS is silly silly silly. I say that every game. I'd much rather talk theory or do anything than spent 24-48 hours doing nothing. And I'm still 100% against claiming combinations, unless someone has a very, very, very good reason to do so.

Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 03:35:00 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

Asking for items makes it more likely the scum will figure out what power you are trying to get.  Also, there is a whole universe of items in the world.  What are the chances of any of the ones we think of being in the game?

I don't think we should fully inventory claim.  That would be useful if we could do it anonymously, but I assume some of the items will have obvious uses and should not be identified with any one player. 

But I bet there are items without obvious uses that a creative approach could match up with other existing items.  Person X has some paper cups they can share.  They could send them out randomly or send them to Person Y who says they have string.  Presto chango, a communication device!  THOSE WERE EXAMPLES AND DO NOT REFLECT KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUAL ITEMS IN THE GAME.  The more people we have mentioning innocuous items, the less scum can use the info to choose a target - this is part of what I meant when I said we could use WIFOM.  It depends how many people have seemingly innocuous items to mention. 

I also don't see a benefit of waiting.  Each time a townie dies we lose access to the items they share. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 25, 2013, 03:40:55 pm
Other random things:

Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
Yes, Eevee had only posted 3 times in the first 24 hours of the game.  THAT's definitely a reasonable reason to find him suspicious.  Sometime, you gotta realize that people get busy.  That's just life.

There's also set-up speculation.  Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6).  I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it.  With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition).  This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.
Theorel, what makes you so certain that this isn't multi-ball?

I have a meta-based townread on ashersky, he seems quite aggressive and inyourface - which is how I think he intentionally plays town to "show" everyone he is town.
I agree with this; also, I like the way ash has stirred up conversation around his raerae vote (the reason I copied his style there).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 03:43:31 pm
It says no multiball in the OP
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 25, 2013, 03:44:42 pm
Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS.  I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in  (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).

Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside.  Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 03:48:48 pm
Another point - we are trying to make pro-town devices.  If a scum gets a cop power, it doesn't really help them.  We don't have NK's, what would they do with a doctor?  It's worth trying b/c the chances are greater that a townie will get the powers.  If I think my V-shaped twig shared with someone with rubber band would make a slingshot, I won't send it.  My plan helps us avoid dangerous combinations to some degree.  To abuse this, scum would have to think of innocuous items that would get them other items that they have other plans for.

The possibility of stealing:  This is true.  If scum can steal and they have the twig and hear about a rubber band, they might try to steal it.  But if we are making say 4 powers and they make 1, it is probably still worth it for town to proceed.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 03:54:02 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk.

I think this is NOT a good option, because it gives information on what you are trying to make.  Saying what you WANT gives a lot more information than saying what you HAVE, so long as you are careful about what you say you have.  I find encouraging this option somewhat scummy, actually.

Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 03:55:40 pm
Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS.  I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in  (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).

Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside.  Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.

Okay, I completely disagree with this. I dislike RVS, but going along with it and making a joke once, one that didn't even vote for a player, happens. What exactly are you accusing me of doing with my RVS post? Looking at the thread, seeing an opportunity, saying "Yes! I can add one more post in! Bwahahaha, they're not going to be able to re-read the thread now!" I just don't get how making a RVS post about ham being a terrible lunchmeat gives you a scum read, or a town read, or any read whatsoever.

You can call it appeasement, I disagree, but whatever. It's not like I can sit here and convince you what was going through my head. I just think you've got nothing here, and it's more likely that you always will just read me scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 03:56:22 pm


Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.

Why did you first think he was scum?
Title: Re: RMMVIII Innovation Inc.
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 03:58:53 pm
EFHW - As for pro-town powers -- I think everything that has no scum utility will be changed to a pro-scum item, if necessary. Not sure if Doc would be one of the ones switched, though.

Setup Specific Information

Regardless of the number of objects in the combination, the different combinations make will make thematic sense and shouldn’t be too difficult to guess.  I will say that the combinations themselves are also all set in stone and will be revealed at game’s end. The most a combination will vary will be whether it's scum or town so that each side can make use of the object, but it will still make thematic sense and only a few objects are split depending on alignment. Guesses you don't use will be rolled over to the following night.


Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 04:01:36 pm
EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 04:04:21 pm
@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.

Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.

I certainly wouldn't vote based on this.  But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful.  He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s.  "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie.  He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance.  BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 25, 2013, 04:06:08 pm
So, then the question is, do we have innocuous items we can claim?  Or would we be better of asking for vague items?

I mean the point is that you could ask for like a "container" or a "power source" or a "connecting thing".
None of those would give anything away, and some people might need something similar.  Or we could claim things like "ball of string", "glass jar", or "pen".  Which have no obvious uses, but someone might say "aha, that needs this item I have".

Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree?  I dunno, maybe neither works.

People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise.  I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.

Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have.  And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 04:08:20 pm
EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO!  I'm saying the opposite.  If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot.  But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it.  Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 04:09:56 pm
Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree?  I dunno, maybe neither works.

People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise.  I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.

Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have.  And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.

This makes sense and I would be open to it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 04:11:53 pm
EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"

Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO!  I'm saying the opposite.  If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot.  But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it.  Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.

Ah, okay.

I disagree that the person shouldn't send you the item though if they're town. Odds are, you're town too, and unless they have a strong scum read, I'd advocate sending it. Getting combinations will probably be necessary to win -- I think it's worth the risk of giving an item to scum for the much better chance of giving an item to town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 04:14:23 pm
@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.

Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.

I certainly wouldn't vote based on this.  But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful.  He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s.  "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie.  He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance.  BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.

I think the warning in the OP is more than enough to be 100% against claiming combinations. And I don't want people to be very careful - I want people to be very, very careful.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 25, 2013, 04:14:57 pm
Yeah, I'm not talking about a mass-claim using either method. I'm just wondering what sort of system we could use to move things around that gives scum the least benefit and town the most benefit.  I'm not sure what the best solution is, or if there even is one.

Is that what you're looking for as well theorel, or am I just misinterpreting all over the place?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 04:22:31 pm
I don't exactly understand Theorel's idea, and I have no idea idea what I'd claim if we went through with it. I understand having someone walk me through what we'd do goes against the point of it, but I don't think it would be very useful to me personally, since I can't really wrap my head around it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 04:25:01 pm
I like the idea of using broad descriptions.  Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous.  But how do we want to go about doing this?  are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim?  I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).

However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 04:26:24 pm
I like the idea of using broad descriptions.  Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous.  But how do we want to go about doing this?  are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim?  I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).

However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.

Why don't you go ahead and start us off then?  If you don't agree with any of the positions taken by Ash, shraeye, or me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 04:26:56 pm
Wouldn't it be very easy for scum to manipulate a claiming system where it's not set in stone what we're doing, and instead are freely putting information forward?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 04:37:56 pm
I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 04:41:36 pm
I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....

For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum.  Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 04:46:11 pm
I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae?  And why is he so sure??  To m it looks like busing....

For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum.  Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
Sorry wrong term.   It looks like scum trying to push a bad wagon...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 05:04:42 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 05:10:42 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:14:37 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

I'm here now.  The time difference is severe.  I'm 16 hours ahead of forum time, so it's already tomorrow here.  I've skimmed up to now, so now I'll go back and respond to specific posts that need it.

Also, big raerae reveal to come.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:16:40 pm
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one

Some talk of no lynch since I left -- none of it very scummy, although no lynch favors scum early in the game.

I actually believe that no lynch is absolutely the wrong move on THIS PARTICULAR D1, given we had a night start.  I think one of the few compelling arguments for a D1 no lynch is that 1) this is RMM and 2) we all can do stuff at night that is cool and maybe will throw off scum.  Except we all already had that opportunity.  So skipping D1 and essentially going with a 2-night start sounds bad to me.

On raerae, as mentioned, I'll get to that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:17:07 pm
Chairs:  Just as a heads up, you really shouldn't be talking about other games that are still going on.  There are players who are in both games, and those who aren't probably reading both anyway.  Talking about completed games is fine, though.

+1

This is a key point for new folks to remember.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 05:17:50 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression.  I didn't go back and look into depth about it.  Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:19:07 pm
I tried to post something last night, but I wasn't feeling well, and I got a new replies thing and maybe forgot to hit post again?  Anyways, it was sometime before ashersky's post.

Anyways, I find theory discussion useful and interesting in general, and am always willing to go in-depth into it.  I generally do so early because it's far more interesting than RVS (and usually helps transition out of RVS, and I don't believe it has the downside of people finding one another scummy for their positions on theory).

For this game in particular, as ash pointed out there are 3 things that can be claimed.  Roles, inventory-related things, and results.  There's of course also flavor names which are perhaps attached to inventory-related items.  But that's the claiming side of things.  I think there may be limited usefulness in claiming inventory-related things, but probably not right now.  BUT claiming is not the limit of theory talk, it's just a beginning.

There's also set-up speculation.  Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6).  I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it.  With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition).  This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.

Then there's the other part of theory.  Where we make plans and such to optimize the usefulness of PRs.  Now, in this game we know nothing about PRs.  BUT we all have these items.  There must be some way to share items, and it seems likely to me that we all have the same means of sharing them (though there may be additional ways in various PRs).  I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions).  It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have.  Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.

Of course, there are a few difficulties here.  In particular, how directed is our item sharing?  What do people need?  How do we NOT lose items that are powerful.  But I think at least some of these things merit discussion.

Finally, soft deadline.  Let's make one and try to get day1 done by then.

Agree on a soft deadline -- I prefer July 2.

This is normal theorel, for those that don't know.  This is absolutely, 100% what I expected from Theo's first in-game post.  It provides an exactly null read, too.

Were you scum in that game where Voltgloss and I had a HUGE fight and you road that to victory?  Or was that eHal?  I always get you two confused.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:20:07 pm
The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment.  You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.'  Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.

On catching up, this is the most sensible response I've seen.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:21:32 pm
I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).

What is "paper-pushing"?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:22:54 pm
Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.

I think the question was actually whether item-based powers are affected by role powers, and vice versa.  You may be able to answer that one.  I'll phrase it a different way:

Arch: Do role powers and item powers interact the same way with powers in both categories?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:24:49 pm
I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

These are bad posts.  Not scummy, necessarily, but bad.  Don't say things like that.  It gives away information about yourself, and tempts others to also give away information.

You are helping scum.


(Or, you are scum playing the wifom game.  But I doubt it.)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:25:23 pm
I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop.  If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.

I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least

See?  It tempts others into giving away information.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:27:39 pm
One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --

He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.

Hmm...hadn't really considered that.  I was actually talking about something different though.  I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out.  It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each.  The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.


If I get 9 items, it would be hilarious, but I think not as good as 3 people having 3 items.  I find it almost impossible to think there is a 9-item combo out there, and if there is, it has to be a "auto-win if you use this" invention.

I think the bigger question, related to all talk around this quote, is this:

How do people decide who to send stuff to?  On N0, only scum knew anything about anyone else.  Town didn't.  So if you would have sent something out on N0, you would have sent it out with ZERO info about the person you gifted.  So you either had to be very sure you weren't hurting town with your random send.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:29:07 pm
So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.

Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.

But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming.  Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have.  The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist.  That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items.  Don't be that jerk.

It's an okay option.  I still think not knowing what else is in the game makes this futile, though.

How about offers?  Someone could say "I have a bazooka, who wants one?" and then we lynch the scum who asks for it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:45:44 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression.  I didn't go back and look into depth about it.  Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice

I think you mean TA and shraeye.

It's happening again!  shraerae in da house!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:46:53 pm
I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce.  At least it is sauce, something we have very little of.  I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.

TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 05:47:04 pm
And now where is everyone else???
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 05:48:59 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 25, 2013, 05:56:13 pm
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.

Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while?  I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post?  What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?

Why didn't I make the list of lurkers!  I've been lurking as much as anyone else has!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 05:57:33 pm
true, but when you have posted, there has been substance.  All I know about mail-mi is he likes ham and pastrami...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 06:00:18 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...

Oh, right, that.

I've got nothing on raerae.  unvote

Just wanted to gauge reactions.  Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 06:02:56 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...

Oh, right, that.

I've got nothing on raerae.  unvote

Just wanted to gauge reactions.  Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
I see... sorry for calling it out early then.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 06:03:39 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...

Oh, right, that.

I've got nothing on raerae.  unvote

Just wanted to gauge reactions.  Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
I see... sorry for calling it out early then.

No biggie.  Mostly got overshadowed by lots of theory talk overnight.  It wasn't guaranteed to result in anything tangible, but I figured it would get folks talking.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 06:08:32 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...

Oh, right, that.

I've got nothing on raerae.  unvote

Just wanted to gauge reactions.  Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.

What do you think about xeiron sheeping that awesome case?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 06:09:42 pm
Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...

Oh, right, that.

I've got nothing on raerae.  unvote

Just wanted to gauge reactions.  Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.

What do you think about xeiron sheeping that awesome case?

Super scummy.  But remember X in Mean Girls?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 06:12:09 pm
I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy.  I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.

Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things.  Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.

I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course.  I don't think it speaks to his alignment.

TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.

Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.

mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it.  Xeiron did.

And raerae?  Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 06:12:44 pm
Tru dat.

Still waiting on all those folks who advocated scumhunting yet seem to be doing very little of it themselves...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 25, 2013, 06:13:19 pm
Glad I could help you out, buddy :)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 25, 2013, 06:24:48 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 06:54:40 pm
I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy.  I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things.  Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course.  I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it.  Xeiron did.
And raerae?  Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
Forgot me.  Sorry, I'm sensitive like that.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:06:51 pm
I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy.  I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things.  Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course.  I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it.  Xeiron did.
And raerae?  Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
Forgot me.  Sorry, I'm sensitive like that.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Right, sorry.  For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 07:09:00 pm
I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce.  At least it is sauce, something we have very little of.  I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.

TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.

Why is this an issue?

I figured you were baiting people but didn't want to see it to see the reactions. I agree that xeiron comes off scummy for jumping on it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 07:12:49 pm
How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:14:48 pm
I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce.  At least it is sauce, something we have very little of.  I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.

TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.

Why is this an issue?

I figured you were baiting people but didn't want to see it to see the reactions. I agree that xeiron comes off scummy for jumping on it.

Because I'm dumb.  I was thinking of WinterSpartan's play in Samurais.  So your play here reminds me of his play there, which doesn't make sense as a meta argument, but I guess kind of works for a you are playing scummy argument?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:15:30 pm
How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?

EFHW, to me, was exactly the same player in both games, and in both games she was scum.  She's different as town.

Now, in this game, she seems like the EFHW of the scum games, not the town games.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:15:49 pm
How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?

EFHW, to me, was exactly the same player in both games, and in both games she was scum.  She's different as town.

Now, in this game, she seems like the EFHW of the scum games, not the town games.

Or, to put it another way, appeasement is a scum thing.  Shraeye said that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 07:35:46 pm
I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy.  I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.

Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things.  Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.

I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course.  I don't think it speaks to his alignment.

TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.

Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.

mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it.  Xeiron did.

And raerae?  Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
How was my reaction scummy?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:39:32 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky

WIFIM for town might be good.

Here's your scummy reaction.  It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit.  You originally had little to no reaction to it.  Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 07:50:47 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:52:06 pm
I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).

What is "paper-pushing"?

This subtle reference that was "missed"?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 07:52:56 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky

WIFIM for town might be good.

Here's your scummy reaction.  It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit.  You originally had little to no reaction to it.  Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well okay. I still don't get how it's that scummy, but if that's how you view it, fine.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 07:53:17 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky

WIFIM for town might be good.

Here's your scummy reaction.  It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit.  You originally had little to no reaction to it.  Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake. 
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:54:00 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.

See, this just opens up more questions than anything.  Did you start with the paper?  Receive the paper?  We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 07:54:56 pm
Arch: Do role powers and item powers interact the same way with powers in both categories?
Yes.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 07:55:46 pm
Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake. 
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now

Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do?  It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?

Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others.  I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 07:56:25 pm
Oh right Unvote doing stuff to cause reactions is kinda townie.

I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Scum hunt anyway! All my reads are usually backwards but I still try!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 25, 2013, 07:57:02 pm
Why are we claiming?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 07:58:20 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.

See, this just opens up more questions than anything.  Did you start with the paper?  Receive the paper?  We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Jeezuz...what's with the claiming!?!
vote chairs
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 08:01:04 pm
Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake. 
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now

Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do?  It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?

Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others.  I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
I wouldn't put anything past you....learned that lesson the hard way.  There is nothing you wouldnt claim or fakeclaim.  Nothing
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 25, 2013, 08:02:09 pm
Vote Count 1.4

xeiron (1) raerae
raerae (1)  xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
chairs (1) spiritbears

Not Voting: ( 8 ) mail-mi, ashersky, Eevee, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 08:04:23 pm
I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:

Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.

Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).

Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).

What is "paper-pushing"?

This subtle reference that was "missed"?

Fair enough, I missed your post.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:06:10 pm
Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake. 
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now

Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do?  It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?

Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others.  I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
I wouldn't put anything past you....learned that lesson the hard way.  There is nothing you wouldnt claim or fakeclaim.  Nothing

Thanks, I think. :)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:06:39 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 08:10:01 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:10:27 pm
Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.

Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are.  Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae.  I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.

Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles.  Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead. 

I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate.  More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky

WIFIM for town might be good.

Here's your scummy reaction.  It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit.  You originally had little to no reaction to it.  Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well okay. I still don't get how it's that scummy, but if that's how you view it, fine.

To clarify, I don't really think voting at that time was so bad, but I didn't like the reasoning.  Something like:

"vote: ash because his tunneling on raerae looks like scum trying to push a mislynch on a vocal towny who is easy to paint as scummy"

would have been a good town reaction.  Because I do think pushing raerae mislynches is a scum tactic because raerae's playstyle makes it easy to turn folks against her.  That's partly why I chose her for this gambit.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 08:11:03 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.

See, this just opens up more questions than anything.  Did you start with the paper?  Receive the paper?  We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.

Certainly it does open up questions, but I simply don't see where else we can go for scumhunting other than to get at least some relevant information out there  (granted, it seems most of you are playing at a lot higher level of WIFOM than I am, so perhaps I'm just missing it).  I don't know where we draw the line on what questions we do/don't answer here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:11:17 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 08:12:22 pm
Ash: all that you said = yu being anti town/scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 25, 2013, 08:13:01 pm
Also in the post you just made, ashersky, you mention knowing about raerae's playstyle.  I'm having to pick up playstyle clues effectively from nil which affects my decisionmaking, certainly.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 25, 2013, 08:13:15 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
Grrr: ashersky
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:15:36 pm
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.

See, this just opens up more questions than anything.  Did you start with the paper?  Receive the paper?  We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.

Certainly it does open up questions, but I simply don't see where else we can go for scumhunting other than to get at least some relevant information out there  (granted, it seems most of you are playing at a lot higher level of WIFOM than I am, so perhaps I'm just missing it).  I don't know where we draw the line on what questions we do/don't answer here.

In the end, the info is yours, you do what you want.  It's just that most of town had vocalized that they weren't ready for claiming, and wanted a better idea for how we would do it.

Here's a hypothetical:

Scum has an item that somehow interacts with paper.  They know they want paper to make it work.  Now they can try to subtly buddy you to get you to send them some.  Or they know that paper is needed as wadding in a musket for shooting.  Or they think they can build paper airplanes to send PMs.  I don't know.  The problem is, you don't know either.  But they might.

Now, the info is out there.  What do we do with it?  I think that's the more pertinent topic now.



As for saying this helps us scumhunt, I disagree.  Talking set-up/theory/items/etc., when they aren't indicative of alignment, doesn't help us scumhunt.  Scumhunting (to me) is looking at what people say about other people, how they interact with each other, what sorts of stances they may take on things.  Does your premature claim say something about your alignment?  I think so, so I guess that adds to the scumhunting.  But the rest of the discussion that we necessarily have to have about the paper will not.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:17:08 pm
Also in the post you just made, ashersky, you mention knowing about raerae's playstyle.  I'm having to pick up playstyle clues effectively from nil which affects my decisionmaking, certainly.

Absolutely a fair point.  Being new in these games can be a disadvantage.

But it's also an advantage in that you don't have preconceived notions of us.

Take spiritbears's recent posts about me.  And mail-mil's own grrr.  It's impossible for them to separate their most recent experience playing a game with me (against me, as it was, given I was mafia that game) from current events.  You don't have that issue and can make your own opinions.

Could be you think I'm scummy anyway, and that's fine.  But remember, what you may see as a disadvantage can be helpful.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:17:57 pm
Ash: all that you said = yu being anti town/scummy.


We might just disagree here, but anti-town =/= scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 08:20:01 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 08:30:33 pm
Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg261713#msg261713
Right, sorry.  For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which?  Sensitivity?  Trust me, it's my everyday meta.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 08:37:47 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb.  mcmc isn't even in this game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:45:52 pm
Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg261713#msg261713
Right, sorry.  For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which?  Sensitivity?  Trust me, it's my everyday meta.

Nope, the actual response you quoted.  Sensitivity is a null tell.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 08:54:50 pm
Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg261713#msg261713
Right, sorry.  For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which?  Sensitivity?  Trust me, it's my everyday meta.

Nope, the actual response you quoted.  Sensitivity is a null tell.
I don't about that meta thing.  Half the time I forgot I was scum in Shakespeare, especially in the beginning.  Remember I was upset for a moment when Liopoil and X turned out to both be town?

But anyway, have you weighed in on whether and specifically how to try to optimize item sharing?  I know you said to spread them around, which I agree about.

What's your impression of TA?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 08:56:24 pm
Quote from: ashersky link=topic=8002.msg261713#msg261713
Right, sorry.  For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which?  Sensitivity?  Trust me, it's my everyday meta.

Nope, the actual response you quoted.  Sensitivity is a null tell.
I don't about that meta thing.  Half the time I forgot I was scum in Shakespeare, especially in the beginning.  Remember I was upset for a moment when Liopoil and X turned out to both be town?

But anyway, have you weighed in on whether and specifically how to try to optimize item sharing?  I know you said to spread them around, which I agree about.

What's your impression of TA?

I think that optimizing the sharing of items is a fool's errand.  Without knowing specific combinations for specific roles, it's just a crapshoot anyway.  I prefer that each person choose who to share with based on their own reads.

TA is on the scummy side.  He reminds me of Winterspartan in Samurai and Ninjas.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:05:34 pm
Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand.  UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers. 

It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one.  Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:07:27 pm
How much do you want to bet scum get at least one item from their victim's inventories?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 09:18:02 pm
Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand.  UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers. 

It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one.  Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?

Well, if paper is an indication, my guess is a pool of simple items which can be combined into greater items.  Like crafting in WoW.

So it is possible that paper is an ingredient in multiple recipes.

Why is Chairs a target?  What if he's scum?  Why not leave him alive for WIFOM if he's town?  What if paper is crappy? 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 09:18:15 pm
How much do you want to bet scum get at least one item from their victim's inventories?

Possible, but not mentioned in the OPs.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:18:59 pm
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.

This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:21:15 pm
Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand.  UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers. 

It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one.  Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?

Why is Chairs a target?  What if he's scum?  Why not leave him alive for WIFOM if he's town?  What if paper is crappy?
It's kind of my fault, but now someone with something that goes great with paper will send it to him and scum will target him to prevent him getting something good. 

Now, he could be scum trying to stimulate more claiming.  That is true.  Maybe he doesn't even have paper.  It would be a good tactic, actually.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:27:12 pm
Here's Shraeye's case on TA, for easy reference.

Here are the reasons that made me vote Twisted before:
Posts #92/#93
given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways
And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Two things here jumped out at me, and those are the two things I left in the quote. First, Twisted says that we should be able to skip RVS because we've had a night.  But unless people come out and immediately claim some night-result, we really don't get to skip the standard start-up.  Even if somebody found scum N0, they have to wait for the thread to fill up with posts and such, so they can build a case on their target.  Otherwise, it will be immediately obvious that the person is a PR, and it would be akin to role claiming.  And that's something you said you were against. (Not just claiming combinations, but in post #95, you say you completely agree with raerae's idea of not claiming anything).

The second thing that jumped out at me was that you stated a very staunch opinion on claiming combinations, and then IMMEDIATELY toned it down in post #93.  This put you on my suspicion radar, and I kept a closer watch on your next few posts.
More important point:
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
This was in response to mail-mi and raerae's joke about claiming that ham is good.  This is fun and silly, and a perfectly good way to start a game, but I don't like spending tons of time just joking around and cluttering up the thread.  Twisted's response to this quick exchange really stands out because, REMEMBER, he said that he hates silly RVS.  That makes this post nothing more than a distraction, and it clutters up our thread.  People can recall in the MeanGirls Mod QT, that I was consistently pointing out that long cluttered threads really only help scum, because nobody ever wants to do a reread.

Last item:
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
I don't get this, Twisted says that he understands raerae's position on theory talk (which is post #98 by her), but disagrees with how useful it is.  "The uselessness of theory talk" IS raerae's position.  You can't simultaneously agree with her but disagree with her main point.  This post is just pure appeasement.
Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
Yes, Eevee had only posted 3 times in the first 24 hours of the game.  THAT's definitely a reasonable reason to find him suspicious.  Sometime, you gotta realize that people get busy.  That's just life.
Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.

I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS.  I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in  (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).

Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside.  Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:31:51 pm
4).  Shraeye could be content to post a weak case as though it is strong b/c it is day one and all we have so far.  I'm not sure what I think of this option, but thought I should add it to be fair.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:34:44 pm
Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.

I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:36:52 pm
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:39:42 pm
Chairs shouldn't have claimed, but I don't know if it makes him a NK target. Obviously it gives scum more information, but what's done is done, I suppose. I actually think it reads towny -- if he's scum, I'm sure his partners would have coached him up somewhat in QT re:claiming, and he'd be more careful to not throw a claim out there while there's opposition to it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:41:22 pm
Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:41:48 pm
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.

It makes sense that he wouldn't think it was a real case.  But in Pirates all he did was fire one provocative question at me.  He didn't make a case.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:43:00 pm
Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 09:43:23 pm
TA have you ever been scum?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:44:59 pm
Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?

oops fakeclaiming = softclaiming
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:45:11 pm
TA have you ever been scum?

Blitz XIII, otherwise no
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 09:48:27 pm
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.

It makes sense that he wouldn't think it was a real case.  But in Pirates all he did was fire one provocative question at me.  He didn't make a case.

Are you sure? I thought he was going on about how it was strange that you weren't responding to mine/his questions. I guess I need to go back and re-read.

I immediately thought he was going for reactions, not that he found me extremely scummy, so I got a town read. Does scum!Shraeye have a benefit from doing this? I don't think he expected the case to stick at all, but several people have gotten scum reads on it, so maybe this was exactly what he planned on doing.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 10:34:52 pm
Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.

I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.

You are not alone in hating meta arguments.  But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.

Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players.  I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II.  I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost.  As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.

I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention.  You think she feels different this game?

As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 10:35:25 pm
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.

I think shraeye was pushing the best case he felt he had at this early juncture in the game.  I don't think it was to get a reaction out of anyone.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 10:36:14 pm
Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?

oops fakeclaiming = softclaiming

Awfully quick to sheep a softclaim, though.  Sure, we had a N0, but it's a bit much to assume I'd catch raerae this quickly.  Although I guess I caught mcmc on N1, so that makes sense.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 25, 2013, 10:38:13 pm
Chairs shouldn't have claimed, but I don't know if it makes him a NK target. Obviously it gives scum more information, but what's done is done, I suppose. I actually think it reads towny -- if he's scum, I'm sure his partners would have coached him up somewhat in QT re:claiming, and he'd be more careful to not throw a claim out there while there's opposition to it.

I agree, chairs is most likely town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 25, 2013, 10:44:32 pm
You are not alone in hating meta arguments.  But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.

Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players.  I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II.  I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost.  As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.

I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention.  You think she feels different this game?


I didn't read Masons + Monks so I can't speak to that. I had a scum read on EFHW in Shakespeare based mostly on voting patterns, and on her hesitancy to hammer, and it's too early to say if she's replicated that. One thing that's different is that she's gotten a LOT more involved in theory talk, which I haven't really seen from her before. She was very reserved about it in Shakespeare, so that's different.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 25, 2013, 11:32:28 pm
I'm starting to feel like this is a 3 person game.  Where is everyone? 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 25, 2013, 11:53:19 pm
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb.  mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 12:07:54 am
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb.  mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...

Your vote did, though.  I think that's why she was pointing it out.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 12:12:07 am
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb.  mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...

Your vote did, though.  I think that's why she was pointing it out.
Your not seriously worried about my vote when no one else here is even willing to consider you might be scum????
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 12:16:16 am
Why are we claiming?

We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....

All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb.  mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...

Your vote did, though.  I think that's why she was pointing it out.
Your not seriously worried about my vote when no one else here is even willing to consider you might be scum????

I am not worried about your vote.  I'm cool with it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 26, 2013, 07:36:24 am
We should not itemclaim any more, because itemclaiming is roleclaiming. That is, roleclaiming of our future roles. The OP says items combination do make sense and should not be easy to guess. Meaning if I say I have a first aid kit, but wish for medicine it is not hard to figure out I am/can become a doctor. We should avoid claiming roles at this point.

I think the best way to maximize powerroles is for everyone to send items they don't nead to their biggest townread.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 26, 2013, 07:44:35 am
Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.

I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.

You are not alone in hating meta arguments.  But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.

Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players.  I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II.  I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost.  As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.

I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention.  You think she feels different this game?

As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
Obviously she feels similar, she is still the same person! Telling the difference between role-based reasons and irl-based reasons for different levels of activity / same or different overall playstyles is important, and hard.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 07:54:29 am
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs.  Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...

Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.

I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.

See, this just opens up more questions than anything.  Did you start with the paper?  Receive the paper?  We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.

Why are you asking those additional questions?  How do any of them matter?
We can infer that he started with paper, and might be someone associated with paper.  But this could be incorrect, maybe he just has paper. 

Again, why does it matter?  What matters is that he has paper, and if someone has something useful they think will combine with paper, they can send it to him.

You have stated yourself that we shouldn't claim.  I really don't understand when someone says "hey no one claim", then someone claims some part of something and suddenly that player goes "oh, really?  tell us EVERYTHING then".  Why can't we just leave partial claims alone?  Especially if we don't think people should be claiming yet.  (We don't necessarily need to trust them, just leave them alone).

(PPE: I think that there are probably enough vague item claims that can be made to help town without giving too much away to scum.  But maybe there are situations like xeiron describes.  On the other hand if you had a first aid kit that needed bandages, you could ask for something to wrap things with.  Which is the same thing you would desire if you wanted to put 2 other items together somehow.  Or if you needed medicine, you could ask for some sort of liquid.  I think people are just thinking too specifically?)

My preference at this point is for people to claim whatever they think will help town the most, and give away the least.
I need some sort of "casing", and some sort of "power source".
I'm pretty sure that gives nothing away in terms of what I can make, since a variety of items can use power, and a variety can use something to hold them.

Also weird thing is I thought the opening posts said something about combinations using no more than 3 items.  But looking over it I found nothing. (did it get edited out? or am I just crazy?)
I did find the following however:
... But beware of scum's objects! (end of second paragraph)

Somehow, I don't think we need to worry about whether scum will share objects with us.  Sounds like they'll be happy to (given that we should "beware").
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 07:59:51 am
How do you know what you "need," theo?  I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?

More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 08:19:50 am
Anyways, scumhunting...involves reads...means I need to figure out what I think of these players.  I doubt I think anything right now, but I need to try to keep people straight, and this is still the best way I've found to do that day1.  It puts my mind in the game and helps me keep track of what I think of people, making me think of them at all.  Hopefully I can start sorting all of you out.  This is a long post, so I expect shraeye and raerae to skip it :P

1. ashersky: active, provocative.  These are general ashersky properties based on what I've seen.  null read.  (scumScore...null=25)

2. Eevee: Very little activity.  Not exactly normal for Eevee, but I think he's been posting somewhat less lately?  Or maybe he posts less in non-normal games.  I dunno, I feel like I've noticed a lot of "not much posting" regarding Eevee in my skimming.  So I'm going to call this basically null for now, but might revise if someone tells me that my thought there is incorrect. scumScore=26

3. xeiron: he's posted like twice (3 times now)?  I've never played with him as far as I remember.  Seems reasonably concerned about claiming...but ultimately I've got nothing.  scumScore=25 (Oh, his name is typoed in the opening post btw)

4. raerae: Seems like typical raerae (i.e. abrasive, joking).  I'm not sure I've seen raerae as scum (in terms of when skimming other games...I know I've never played with scum raerae).  So I guess I lean town here.  scumScore=20

5. mail-mi: First player I've not really noticed.  I know he's posted some stuff, and has received some comments.  I think there was a back and forth with ashersky last night regarding how he voted for ashersky?  I'll try to pay more attention to him.  scumScore=25

6. TwistedArcher: Has posted a lot.  Not sure if "appeasing" is a scum-trait when applied to twistedarcher.  I know it isn't when applied to me, and I know that I have a tendency to appease (maybe I only try to appease and actually don't? Robz always thinks I'm scum because I ask permission to do things like vote though...).  He's gotten a lot of heat, which generally makes me lean town.  scumScore=20

7. chairs: He claimed paper, so we know he beats rock, and loses to scissors.  He's a green card that helps with splaying (thematically because he helps pass down information from one age to the next).  Early uninformed claims are usually town (though they are also usually mislynched).  This wasn't quite as early, although it was broadcast early.  Still likely to be town.  scumScore=20.

8. shraeye: I can't pretend that I can read shraeye.  I've only really pegged him as scum once, and he was of course town that time (and IC to boot).  He seems to have played a similar gambit to ashersky, except he decided to build an actual weak/day-1 case on TA?  (unlike ashersky who did it to provoke).  Um...I'm going to play it safe and lean scum here.  scumScore=28

9. Ahoppy: Second player I haven't noticed.  This time I've got absolutely nothing.  I don't know if he's been posting little, or if I don't know him and so don't have a voice to associate with him.  Can't remember other comments regarding him.  No knowledge of player means slight scum right?  (even if it's entirely my own fault) scumScore=27

10. EFHW: One of the three players in conversation last night (with TA and ashersky).  I think she's the one taking the opposite viewpoint to me regarding claiming (i.e. that we should claim items we have rather than items we need).  ashersky thinks she sounds like when she's scum.  Eevee thinks that she sounds like Efhw.  I don't know her meta.  I've got nothing really.  scumScore=25

11. spiritbears: One of these days spiritbears is going to be scum, and we'll all be surprised.  I don't know enough about how spiritbears plays mafia, except that everyone always thinks he's town.  I can see why...I think he's town too.  And I can't even figure out why (I don't remember anything he's actually said, just that he seems like town.)  scumScore=20

12. theorel: Yep, I'm here.  I'm the most pro-town player around, even if I always lose anyways.  At least people don't usually suspect me until around day3.  scumScore=0.

13. nkirbit: I was about to say I remembered nothing, then I remembered...he called himself out for underposting, after someone didn't call him out for it (ahoppy maybe?  I'll have to check).  I think this might actually be a scum trait based on experience (I remember Galzria calling himself out in DS9.  I think other scum has done it in the past).  Although it seems like a townie thing to do, maybe it's one of those town things that scum does to look townie?  Meh, the better townie response would be to post more.  Well, I'm not going to build a case around it, but I'll lean scum here for now, scumScore=28.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 08:25:34 am
How do you know what you "need," theo?  I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?

More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.

Or maybe we just have different descriptions?  Do your items not have descriptions?  (I'm also extrapolating based on what I would guess the items need)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 08:32:02 am
How do you know what you "need," theo?  I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?

More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.

Or maybe we just have different descriptions?  Do your items not have descriptions?  (I'm also extrapolating based on what I would guess the items need)

My item(s) has/have a description.  I am unable to extrapolate other types of items needed based on that/them.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 08:33:40 am
Okay, looked back at Ahoppy.  He's been posting a good bit actually, and I was right about it being him calling out lurkers.  It looks like he's been trying to engender discussion.  So, I'm going to drop his scumScore to 22.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 08:35:18 am
Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.

I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.

You are not alone in hating meta arguments.  But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.

Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players.  I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II.  I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost.  As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.

I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention.  You think she feels different this game?

As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
Obviously she feels similar, she is still the same person! Telling the difference between role-based reasons and irl-based reasons for different levels of activity / same or different overall playstyles is important, and hard.

Sure it is hard.  But we still need to try.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 26, 2013, 09:11:50 am
Anyways, scumhunting...involves reads...means I need to figure out what I think of these players.  I doubt I think anything right now, but I need to try to keep people straight, and this is still the best way I've found to do that day1.  It puts my mind in the game and helps me keep track of what I think of people, making me think of them at all.  Hopefully I can start sorting all of you out.  This is a long post, so I expect shraeye and raerae to skip it :P

1. ashersky: active, provocative.  These are general ashersky properties based on what I've seen.  null read.  (scumScore...null=25)

2. Eevee: Very little activity.  Not exactly normal for Eevee, but I think he's been posting somewhat less lately?  Or maybe he posts less in non-normal games.  I dunno, I feel like I've noticed a lot of "not much posting" regarding Eevee in my skimming.  So I'm going to call this basically null for now, but might revise if someone tells me that my thought there is incorrect. scumScore=26

3. xeiron: he's posted like twice (3 times now)?  I've never played with him as far as I remember.  Seems reasonably concerned about claiming...but ultimately I've got nothing.  scumScore=25 (Oh, his name is typoed in the opening post btw)

4. raerae: Seems like typical raerae (i.e. abrasive, joking).  I'm not sure I've seen raerae as scum (in terms of when skimming other games...I know I've never played with scum raerae).  So I guess I lean town here.  scumScore=20

5. mail-mi: First player I've not really noticed.  I know he's posted some stuff, and has received some comments.  I think there was a back and forth with ashersky last night regarding how he voted for ashersky?  I'll try to pay more attention to him.  scumScore=25

6. TwistedArcher: Has posted a lot.  Not sure if "appeasing" is a scum-trait when applied to twistedarcher.  I know it isn't when applied to me, and I know that I have a tendency to appease (maybe I only try to appease and actually don't? Robz always thinks I'm scum because I ask permission to do things like vote though...).  He's gotten a lot of heat, which generally makes me lean town.  scumScore=20

7. chairs: He claimed paper, so we know he beats rock, and loses to scissors.  He's a green card that helps with splaying (thematically because he helps pass down information from one age to the next).  Early uninformed claims are usually town (though they are also usually mislynched).  This wasn't quite as early, although it was broadcast early.  Still likely to be town.  scumScore=20.

8. shraeye: I can't pretend that I can read shraeye.  I've only really pegged him as scum once, and he was of course town that time (and IC to boot).  He seems to have played a similar gambit to ashersky, except he decided to build an actual weak/day-1 case on TA?  (unlike ashersky who did it to provoke).  Um...I'm going to play it safe and lean scum here.  scumScore=28

9. Ahoppy: Second player I haven't noticed.  This time I've got absolutely nothing.  I don't know if he's been posting little, or if I don't know him and so don't have a voice to associate with him.  Can't remember other comments regarding him.  No knowledge of player means slight scum right?  (even if it's entirely my own fault) scumScore=27

10. EFHW: One of the three players in conversation last night (with TA and ashersky).  I think she's the one taking the opposite viewpoint to me regarding claiming (i.e. that we should claim items we have rather than items we need).  ashersky thinks she sounds like when she's scum.  Eevee thinks that she sounds like Efhw.  I don't know her meta.  I've got nothing really.  scumScore=25

11. spiritbears: One of these days spiritbears is going to be scum, and we'll all be surprised.  I don't know enough about how spiritbears plays mafia, except that everyone always thinks he's town.  I can see why...I think he's town too.  And I can't even figure out why (I don't remember anything he's actually said, just that he seems like town.)  scumScore=20

12. theorel: Yep, I'm here.  I'm the most pro-town player around, even if I always lose anyways.  At least people don't usually suspect me until around day3.  scumScore=0.

13. nkirbit: I was about to say I remembered nothing, then I remembered...he called himself out for underposting, after someone didn't call him out for it (ahoppy maybe?  I'll have to check).  I think this might actually be a scum trait based on experience (I remember Galzria calling himself out in DS9.  I think other scum has done it in the past).  Although it seems like a townie thing to do, maybe it's one of those town things that scum does to look townie?  Meh, the better townie response would be to post more.  Well, I'm not going to build a case around it, but I'll lean scum here for now, scumScore=28.

I like this type of post.  When/if I find time today, I'll try to share my opinions in a similar vein.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 09:30:52 am
Eevee was vert active in the just completed mean girls...as scum.  I'm not quite ready to call his lurking scummy. But it could be....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 09:42:58 am
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
This is silly.  I absolutely believe in the case that I made; what do you mean by real case?  I didn't claim you were ultra scummy, you were just the very first player who did things that stood out to me, and I voted you because of it.  Now, I definitely tried to vote you in the most provocative way possible, because I really wanted to gauge others' reactions.

But if people were looking at my vote and going, "yeah! shraeye has a vote and a case; i'm eager to hear this slam-dunk air-tight case that he made THREE HOURS INTO THE GAME"...like seriously?

As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.

I think shraeye was pushing the best case he felt he had at this early juncture in the game.  I don't think it was to get a reaction out of anyone.
This is the reasonable reaction to have to my case, which WAS weak, because it was based on 3 hours of info.  However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum. 

Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.

This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.

This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 09:57:48 am
Another thing that I've been thinking through.  ashersky voted raerae with no stated reason, and I voted for Twisted with no stated reason.  Both of us voted in a purposefully provocative way.

And then the raerae/ash thing really took off; people were begging ash to say why, people were joining his wagon, voting for ash because he was being bull-headed, and all that jazz.  But I recall only Twisted asking with any persistence about my vote on him.

If one of our "cases" was on scum, and one on town, I think I'd expect a bit more activity regarding both of the votes.  If scum found their partner getting too much attention, they'd bring up the other person.  And if scum saw everyone piling on the town-wagon, they'd focus on their partner and try to buy some cred that way.

The way the reactions fell, it seems more possible that raerae/TA are of the same alignment.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 10:15:20 am
However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum. 
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.

I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 10:24:02 am
However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum. 
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.

I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case?  Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 10:48:04 am
However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum. 
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.

I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case?  Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 11:06:14 am
I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case?  Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
[/quote]
You pushed it pretty hard.  You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a pretty aggressively worded response to his response (see below).  You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible.  So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously?  Why are you now ridiculing meVote: Shraeye.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 26, 2013, 11:20:32 am
@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 26, 2013, 11:23:45 am
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 11:57:10 am
Fixed quotes and on looking back again decided I had phrased things too strongly before.  Please substitute this for the earlier post.  Still keeping my vote there for now, though.
Quote from: EFHW
I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case?  Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
You pushed it hard enough.  You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below).  You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible.  So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously?  Why are you now ridiculing meVote: Shraeye.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 12:09:44 pm
You pushed it hard enough.  You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below).  You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible.  So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously?  Why are you now ridiculing meVote: Shraeye.
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard.  That just is me trying to create reactions.

You are just taking this misinterpretation further and further.  I pushed my case hard because I had several paragraphs in a single post??  What do you mean by reiteration; are you simply talking about when I responded to Twisted's defense??
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 12:14:11 pm
You pushed it hard enough.  You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below).  You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible.  So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously?  Why are you now ridiculing meVote: Shraeye.
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard.  That just is me trying to create reactions.

You are just taking this misinterpretation further and further.  I pushed my case hard because I had several paragraphs in a single post??  What do you mean by reiteration; are you simply talking about when I responded to Twisted's defense??
yes
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 12:16:49 pm
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard.  That just is me trying to create reactions.
Right, I see that.  But you are now on my case because I took you seriously and I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't --  is odd or scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 12:21:26 pm
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard.  That just is me trying to create reactions.
Right, I see that.  But you are now on my case because I took you seriously and I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't --  is odd or scummy.
I acknowledge that I didn't only challenge it, I also speculated on why you would make the case at all.  But I don't see what is odd about that.  Your posts didn't seem like a gambit to me.  You say they were.  I didn't know that then.  (I'm actually still not sure, but that's a different question).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 26, 2013, 12:24:10 pm
Given that I voted for Shraeye as a joke, and it now looks as though he may be seriously being voted for (and I haven't made up my mind about the evidence so far provided)...

unvote
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 12:29:30 pm
I think there's some miscommunication going on here.
shraeye has never said his case was a gambit.  He said his vote-presentation was, but the case was always just a weak case.

He also never said he pushed the case hard (unless I missed it), nor has he said he didn't really mean the case.  He said he made a provocative vote to gauge reactions, and then gave the weak case after prompting.

I personally don't equate 3 posts to pushing a case hard, especially when one is a sarcastic comment.  The response to Twisted's defense is more explanatory than anything.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 12:32:34 pm
Your posts didn't seem like a gambit to me.  You say they were. 
I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't --  is odd or scummy.
Stop.  Just stop.  I never said my posts were a gambit.  I never said I didn't mean that case.  Seriously, those statements you are making have no basis in reality.  stop.

I absolutely believe in the case that I made
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 12:34:03 pm
I think there's some miscommunication going on here.
shraeye has never said his case was a gambit.  He said his vote-presentation was, but the case was always just a weak case.

He also never said he pushed the case hard (unless I missed it), nor has he said he didn't really mean the case.  He said he made a provocative vote to gauge reactions, and then gave the weak case after prompting.

I personally don't equate 3 posts to pushing a case hard, especially when one is a sarcastic comment.  The response to Twisted's defense is more explanatory than anything.
So you are ok with him pushing s weak case then?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 12:35:21 pm
Spiritbears, are you ok with me making a weak case?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 12:36:57 pm
I'm okay with him presenting a weak case, and then answering questions about it, sure.

3 posts does not constitute pushing a case (especially based on my experience with shraeye).  Pushing a case usually involves bringing it back up with more points as more things come up (or after rereading).  Have cases really gotten so weak that that's considered pushing?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 12:42:43 pm
I'm okay with him presenting a weak case, and then answering questions about it, sure.

3 posts does not constitute pushing a case (especially based on my experience with shraeye).  Pushing a case usually involves bringing it back up with more points as more things come up (or after rereading).  Have cases really gotten so weak that that's considered pushing?
Ok that's fair.  It seemed like much mire than three posts....but maybe I'm reading their earlier back and forth into it....
I do think shraeya cones across scumier the. Efhw....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 12:49:15 pm
Making a weak case (any case even) deserves to be questioned, but I didn't vote him based on the case.  I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit?  Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade?  Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position. 

What prompted me to vote and the part that is scummiest to me is his painting my reaction as "odd" and "not the good kind, either".  This doesn't make any sense and therefore strikes me as opportunistic.  When I asked for an explanation he attacked my characterization of him and did not explain what was "odd" and "not the good kind" in my reactions.  Miscommunication doesn't fit what I see happening here.

However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum. 
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye.  In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched.  Now he is presenting a weak case on TA.  I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched.  After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1.  Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.

I don't get it.  You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case?  Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 12:53:16 pm
When I say "pushing a weak case harder than it deserved", that is how I interpreted his saying he made it as provocative as possible.  It's not about how many posts or the number of points in his argument, it's my interpretation of what he himself said.  Substitute "tried to provoke responses" if that fits better for you.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 12:56:51 pm
I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit?  Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade?  Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position. 

What prompted me to vote and the part that is scummiest to me is his painting my reaction as "odd" and "not the good kind, either".  This doesn't make any sense and therefore strikes me as opportunistic.  When I asked for an explanation he attacked my characterization of him and did not explain what was "odd" and "not the good kind" in my reactions.  Miscommunication doesn't fit what I see happening here.
Wow, you really think there is zero ground between gambit-vote that I'm backing up with no real conviction, and pushing a case hard.

Also, This post above which I am quoting is the VERY FIRST time you have directly OR indirectly asked me to explain my characterization of your reaction as "odd", yet you are trying to spin my "avoiding it" as scummy. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 01:29:57 pm
Here is the post that EFHW snipped from:


In it, I highlight ashersky's completely normal reaction to my case; he saw exactly what I was doing, voting for a case that made sense to me but was weak by virtue of the game just starting.  My reasons for voting Twisted weren't gambit-fake, but I did try to be controversial with the way I voted, to maximize reactions to it.

I explained already how EFHW's reaction is odd (my snipped post above); she looked at the situation, and somehow, based on who looked scummy to me in a past game, reached the conclusion that my vote was a bus.  Because, according to EFHW, even shraeye couldn't believe a case like that.  This really looks like she is looking at the facts from a very particular perspective, trying to make sure that at least one of shraeye/TA comes out looking scummy. 

Later on, you posted the most logical explanation, and said that you hadn't thought about it, but wanted to include it just to be fair. I think that really looks like somebody who realized how scummy their first post was, and tried to mollify that later on. 
4).  Shraeye could be content to post a weak case as though it is strong b/c it is day one and all we have so far.  I'm not sure what I think of this option, but thought I should add it to be fair.

She kept changing and making up facts to try to stick it to me, during our exchange, and now that she sees that my point is getting through to other people like spiritbears and theorel, she decides to shift tactics and paint me scummy by saying that I "avoided" something which she never even asked me to do.

Vote: EFHW
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 01:34:10 pm

Here is where I asked you.  It was right after you first said it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 01:52:12 pm
I have zero investment in painting you as scummy.  I'm reacting to what I see, and each time you escalate further.  Re: option 4, it seems like most people say "I know it's day one" or "FOS here, I noticed this..." etc.  You don't have to do that, but since you didn't do that, and you voted, that's why it came across as it did to me.

I haven't changed my position at all this whole time, so that is either a mischaracterization or a misinterpretation on your part.

I think I've said all I can about where I stand here.  Continuing to explain myself seems to make things worse not better.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 26, 2013, 01:52:17 pm
That question is rhetorical.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 01:53:31 pm
Technically maybe, but that's not what I intended and not how it reads to me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 26, 2013, 02:31:15 pm
Making a weak case (any case even) deserves to be questioned, but I didn't vote him based on the case.  I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit?  Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade?  Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position. 

Being sarcastic suggests he's shraeye.

Cases deserve to be questioned.  Making a case (any case even) does not deserve to be questioned.  Pushing for a lynch deserves to be questioned.  There's a huge span of gray area between making a case that a player is scummy and pushing for their lynch.  Just like there's a huge gulf between voting for someone and wanting them lynched.  One act is necessary for the other, but it doesn't imply the other.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 26, 2013, 04:40:58 pm
FWIW - I will be taking a trip to Chicago, and will have limited posting abilities (not that I think my posting has been terribly productive to begin with) for at least the next 24 hours.  I suspect I will have semi-regular access to a computer once I get there, but if not i can at least post from my phone.  Apologies in advance for the afk.

I think I unvoted already to prevent being on any accidental wagon while I"m out, but if not: unvote
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 26, 2013, 04:44:20 pm
Vote Count 1.5

xeiron (1) raerae
raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) spiritbears, EFHW
ashersky (1) mail-mi
EFHW (1) shraeye

Not Voting: (7) ashersky, Eevee, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, theorel, nkirbit, chairs.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 26, 2013, 05:31:50 pm
I guess I'm just shoved under the table and don't count in the not voting count?  :o
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 26, 2013, 05:37:24 pm
Vote: chairs - for claiming.  Damn, was really hoping that wouldn't have to happen.

Shraeye and EFHW are being ridiculous.  I don't care who pulled hair first but both of you need to let go and hug it out.  EFHW was grossly exaggerating when she said shraeye was "pushing" TA's case.  He voted, then explained the vote.  Done.  Shraeye got over excited at her exaggeration and now this has happened.  I'd like to note that NOBODY is participating in this discussion but you two.  So what does that generally mean, kids?  Yup, probably town v. town.  Could I be wrong?  Absolutely.  If I had to point the scum finger at somebody, EFHW would get that honor because of her gross exaggeration and misrepresentation BUT her reaction to shraeye's reaction reads like pissed off and annoyed EFHW from Pirates.  I still lean toward the tvt thing though.  And moving on now.

TA, you've been extra super duper quiet lately...what's up with that?

And for the people saying they aren't good at scumhunting, I'm going to tell you something my mom STILL tells me when, "Well, you can't get any better if you don't practice!"  So, scumhunt or prepare to be lynched because if you aren't hunting, you're being hunted.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 26, 2013, 05:37:55 pm
I guess I'm just shoved under the table and don't count in the not voting count?  :o
Fixed
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 06:19:38 pm
I really dislike shyrae's insinuation that bescuse I find him more scummy than efhw, I must not be thinking fir myself...that kind of argument just gets under my skin....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 06:45:53 pm
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash

What percent of this vote is RVS?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 06:47:08 pm
TechnicallyCall me maybe, but that's not what I intended and not how it reads to me.

Fixed.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 06:48:15 pm
I fall on the raerae side of the shraeye/EFHW debacle.  I have a town read on shraeye, scum read on EFHW, but the argument isn't helping.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 26, 2013, 06:49:23 pm
Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!

I've been slacking, so need to re-read.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 06:53:55 pm
Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!

I've been slacking, so need to re-read.

If you want suggestions on what to read:

1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 26, 2013, 06:55:36 pm
Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!

I've been slacking, so need to re-read.

If you want suggestions on what to read:

1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors

Thank you.  I started skimming and my general thoughts are "wow, what are we even arguing about?"
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 06:59:52 pm
@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)

I would note that the three item thing was in a PM sent to all players (I assume, given BCC) regarding how N0 was going.  The PM mentioned scum QTs locking, which is why I think scum got it as well as town.  So I would count that as public knowledge.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 07:00:34 pm
Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!

I've been slacking, so need to re-read.

If you want suggestions on what to read:

1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors

Thank you.  I started skimming and my general thoughts are "wow, what are we even arguing about?"
Very little :)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 26, 2013, 07:16:40 pm
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash

What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 07:19:59 pm
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash

What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.

vote: mail-mi

12% OMGUS.

Finding 88% seriousness in voting me for your frustration that I caught your scum partner mcmc in a previous game while I was a tracker is insanity.

If I wasn't mentioning it at all, someone would be pointing it out for us.  It's out there.  It's relevant when you are talking about ash meta.  Plus, it was freaking awesome.  I rock as town.

But "it's annoying" is a reason to 88% seriously vote for someone?  Now THAT is annoying.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 26, 2013, 07:41:45 pm
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash

What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.

vote: mail-mi

12% OMGUS.

Finding 88% seriousness in voting me for your frustration that I caught your scum partner mcmc in a previous game while I was a tracker is insanity.

If I wasn't mentioning it at all, someone would be pointing it out for us.  It's out there.  It's relevant when you are talking about ash meta.  Plus, it was freaking awesome.  I rock as town.

But "it's annoying" is a reason to 88% seriously vote for someone?  Now THAT is annoying.

The "It's annoying" part is the 12% RVS. The "Scum!ash is trying to get into our heads!" is the 88% serious part.

P.S. 12% is just a random smallish number that I came up with because I was thinking about that scene in Avengers.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 26, 2013, 08:34:33 pm
I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 08:54:56 pm
I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.

Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game?  Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 26, 2013, 09:18:34 pm
I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.

Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game?  Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
It's not that I don't have availability, certainly. Hmm, I guess it's the game being so large, it being day 1 and the topics of discussion mostly being claiming stuff / trying to break the setup, not things I feel I have much to offer on. I imagine it'll change when we get further in the game (to areas where I'm more comfortable at).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 09:21:35 pm
I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.

Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game?  Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
It's not that I don't have availability, certainly. Hmm, I guess it's the game being so large, it being day 1 and the topics of discussion mostly being claiming stuff / trying to break the setup, not things I feel I have much to offer on. I imagine it'll change when we get further in the game (to areas where I'm more comfortable at).

No comment on the emotional portions of the game?  That's your forte after all.

There have been a few emotional moments -- shraeye vs. EFHW, raerae's early responses to my vote, maybe a few of sb's posts.

I know you agreed tvt for shraeye/EFHW, but no other takeaways?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 26, 2013, 09:30:28 pm
First, I appreciate you trying to get me more involved like that! Very protown work.

Second, hmm. I've been reading, and nothing has really stood out for me. Like all of the arguments have seemed like complicated constructing rather than emotionally unleashing without thinking, if that makes any sense.

I got the town read from your early aggressiveness. Raerae I think matches her town behaviour, but I don't have an opinion on if she is like that when scum as well.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 09:51:05 pm
I am happy to end the argument with Shraeye, and I don't expect any response to this post and hope never to have occasion to mention the issue again,  but I feel like I have to say that I do not agree with raerae's description of what happened at all.  There was some disagreement about what "pushing" meant, and I did not intend it the way it was taken, but I think I was mostly being persistent in trying to get a few points across that never did make it.  So I hope everyone will read for themselves instead of accepting her summary.  THE END.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 26, 2013, 10:25:35 pm
I'm here and catching up. Raerae, you voted for chairs, and you said you would policy vote all claimers, but do you actually think he's scum?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 26, 2013, 10:36:47 pm
EFHW comes off scummier than Shraeye in this argument, and I'm not as convinced as everyone else that this is town vs. town. The list that she came up with for Shraeye's reasons for pushing the argument all incriminate him as scum. That's just really early, and really strong, for a list that definitely says someone's scum for pushing a case so early, and the fourth reason being thrown in afterwards is sketchy. EFHW is a scummier read, Shraeye is a townier read.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 10:40:00 pm
EFHW comes off scummier than Shraeye in this argument, and I'm not as convinced as everyone else that this is town vs. town. The list that she came up with for Shraeye's reasons for pushing the argument all incriminate him as scum. That's just really early, and really strong, for a list that definitely says someone's scum for pushing a case so early, and the fourth reason being thrown in afterwards is sketchy. EFHW is a scummier read, Shraeye is a townier read.
I see it just the opposite
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 26, 2013, 10:52:27 pm
After seeing spiritbears' vote on Shraeye I decided to go back and read him a little bit. There's some scummy stuff in there.

His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.

In #254, he states an approval of an opinion EFHW put forth on theory, saying that this isn't the first time he's found himself agreeing with her.

In the midst of the EFHW-Shraeye argument, in #397, he places a vote, with little explanation, but it's clear that he agrees with EFHW, and not with Shraeye. In #409, he asks Theorel if he's okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case (so this is his reason for voting, it seems). He says that Shraeye comes across as scummier as EFHW, but he hasn't really said why, and he hasn't said why he believes EFHW but not Shraeye, other than the fact that he doesn't like that Shraeye is pushing a weak case (#409).

Then, when Nkirbit asks what the argument is about, he responds "very little" -- but not little enough for him to have placed a vote over it!


Basically, I think Spiritbears placed votes on two people, hoping to get people to join in. Initially, there was the vote on Ashersky, who did something that would read very scummy from most people -- the vote for Raerae with no explanation. Even after Ashersky explaoined what he did, SB still continued to find him scummy.

The second, and more scummy to me, is the vote on Shraeye and the interaction with EFHW. It's possible this vote simply came from his town read on EFHW, but that still shouldn't automatically lead to a scum-read on Shraeye, either. The impression I get is that the scum-read on Shraeye comes from simply disagreeing with someone he finds towny, which reads forced and unlike true scumhunting to me. When pushing the case to another (Theorel), his main explanation for finding Shraeye scummy is that he "pushed a weak case" -- something that Shraeye himself has admitted to. It's early D1, of course the case was weak! That doesn't make Shraeye scum, and I think jumping on him for that, when given the opportunity, is the scummiest thing I've seen yet.

Vote: Spiritbears

PPE: I see he has disagreed on my assessment of EFHW vs. Shraeye -- but not really explained why, again. SB, besides Shraeye's case being weak, why do you have a scumread on Shraeye and a townread on EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 26, 2013, 10:57:04 pm
Popsquiz time!

Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel


I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on.  But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say.  But not really.  Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game.  Very useful later on.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 26, 2013, 11:12:47 pm
After seeing spiritbears' vote on Shraeye I decided to go back and read him a little bit. There's some scummy stuff in there.

His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.

In #254, he states an approval of an opinion EFHW put forth on theory, saying that this isn't the first time he's found himself agreeing with her.

In the midst of the EFHW-Shraeye argument, in #397, he places a vote, with little explanation, but it's clear that he agrees with EFHW, and not with Shraeye. In #409, he asks Theorel if he's okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case (so this is his reason for voting, it seems). He says that Shraeye comes across as scummier as EFHW, but he hasn't really said why, and he hasn't said why he believes EFHW but not Shraeye, other than the fact that he doesn't like that Shraeye is pushing a weak case (#409).

Then, when Nkirbit asks what the argument is about, he responds "very little" -- but not little enough for him to have placed a vote over it!


Basically, I think Spiritbears placed votes on two people, hoping to get people to join in. Initially, there was the vote on Ashersky, who did something that would read very scummy from most people -- the vote for Raerae with no explanation. Even after Ashersky explaoined what he did, SB still continued to find him scummy.

The second, and more scummy to me, is the vote on Shraeye and the interaction with EFHW. It's possible this vote simply came from his town read on EFHW, but that still shouldn't automatically lead to a scum-read on Shraeye, either. The impression I get is that the scum-read on Shraeye comes from simply disagreeing with someone he finds towny, which reads forced and unlike true scumhunting to me. When pushing the case to another (Theorel), his main explanation for finding Shraeye scummy is that he "pushed a weak case" -- something that Shraeye himself has admitted to. It's early D1, of course the case was weak! That doesn't make Shraeye scum, and I think jumping on him for that, when given the opportunity, is the scummiest thing I've seen yet.

Vote: Spiritbears

PPE: I see he has disagreed on my assessment of EFHW vs. Shraeye -- but not really explained why, again. SB, besides Shraeye's case being weak, why do you have a scumread on Shraeye and a townread on EFHW?
So what youbhave there TA is a whole bunch if nothing fluffed up to try and make me look scummy
That's just the kind of nonsense I would expect from certain others....
But really. What you are saying is you disagree with me that ash has been scummy....you disagree with me that shrae was scummy pushing a weak case against a player that has been this far helpful to town....
So that means I'm scum? Because I have different reads than you!
Really this shows scumniness on your part....Bigtime
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 26, 2013, 11:36:21 pm
Popsquiz time!

Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel

I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on.  But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say.  But not really.  Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game.  Very useful later on.

Do you mean this literally?  That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now.  As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer?   Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one?  Or in general?  Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4?  Just wondering.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 12:04:39 am
SB, why do you think Shraeye is scummy and EFHW isn't?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 02:48:46 am
Popsquiz time!

Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel

I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on.  But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say.  But not really.  Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game.  Very useful later on.

Do you mean this literally?  That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now.  As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer?   Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one?  Or in general?  Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4?  Just wondering.

Would Lynch at this point is basically scummy reads.  Not necessarily hammer right this minute, but would hammer if it was deadline time.

Yes, very low threshold for D1 this early on.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 07:25:24 am
If this were deadline?
would lynch: anyone but myself
would not lynch: myself

As it stands now?
would lynch: no one
would not lynch: everyone

I've already given reads...none of those are strong enough to support a lynch or push against one at deadline.

I need to consider the efhw vs shraeye thing.  I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum.  Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant). 

In this case, that's spiritbears.  And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire.  It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town.  Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you.  OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate.  That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle.  Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral.  Say scumScore=26).

I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others.  I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.

raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town".  As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy.  Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town.  Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things.  I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.

Then TwistedArcher decided to go further than I do above and really take it to spiritbears.  It seems a little puffed up to me also, but it's still early.

ashersky and Eevee...there might be stuff to draw out of either of their recent posts, but I don't have anything at the moment.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 08:08:00 am
"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 08:10:15 am
"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:19:42 am
I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.

I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 08:23:56 am
"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta

You still have yet to explain why you agree with efhw and not shraeye. Please answer this!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 08:25:21 am
"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst?  Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum.  This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion

Fuel to the fire might be strong, I'll explain why I felt that way though:
I initially saw your vote as a joke (I mean your provided "reasoning" was riddler is scummy).  But your later arguments seemed to support it as not a joke.  You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).  But the fact that it's supported with a vote (though already existent) makes it seem stronger.  Compare: "this is probably town v. town but efhw seems scummier" to "vote for shraeye, shraeye seems scummier".  And I think you'll see where I'm coming from?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 08:27:28 am
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 08:30:36 am
I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.

I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!

Because you need to post more and scumhunt more! I feel like you haven't gotten into the game yet which is a bit odd for you
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 08:47:31 am
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 27, 2013, 10:22:28 am
I really dislike shyrae's insinuation that bescuse I find him more scummy than efhw, I must not be thinking fir myself...that kind of argument just gets under my skin....
Sorry, that's not what I was tyring to say.  I was pointing out how you and theorel were beginning to understand what I was saying about my side of the argument, and I suspect that that prompted EFHW to switch her tactic.  I'm not sure where you got that insinuation from.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 27, 2013, 10:45:39 am
Ok, I've reread mine and EFHW's fight with a cooler head, and I realize that I need to settle down and keep my attention more broadly focus on all the players...sometimes I just get locked into self-confirming suspicion, and I really don't like to do that so early in a game as it leaves me with no thoughts and reads on the other players at all.  I can see the point that EFHW's posts could be pure misunderstanding instead of a little confusion mixed with maliciousness.

unvote
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 11:21:42 am
You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).

I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence.  But really we just have a few people stating similar positions.  Most people haven't weighed in at all.  Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree?  IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.

Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know. 

And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 11:23:15 am
Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered

Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record. 
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 27, 2013, 11:49:24 am
I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 12:33:34 pm
sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 12:41:58 pm
So here's the thing - I don't want to continue any animosity b/w me and Shraeye, but he remains my top scum read at this point.  So I am going to have to leave my vote there without any intention of provoking anything - though if I become more convinced I may start advocating for his lynch.  My popsquiz:

Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel

No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit.  Would love to hear from you guys!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 27, 2013, 01:47:51 pm
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 01:56:52 pm
sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
TY

I m sorry  for my unreadable posts.
Along with all my other stupid problems I have epilepsy,
and some days just can't make it through a post with seizing
Thsnk you all for your kind patience with me...
I know I don't deserve it mostly
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 02:41:49 pm
Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered

Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record. 
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy

I think I'm not being entirely clear.  Your vote + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as "I think shraeye is scum, we should lynch him."
Saying town v. town + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as, "I really don't think we should lynch either of these players."

One of those reads to me as encouraging conflict, while the other seeks reconciliation.  I find it more pro-town to seek reconciliation simply because most conflicts (not a vast majority, but most) are town v town.  I think that cooler, less emotional heads will tend to do better at finding scum.  I acknowledge that others disagree on this matter, but I've held this opinion forever and haven't seen anything to change my mind (although I've seen lots of bad lynches of emotional players to further cement my opinion on this matter).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 02:43:00 pm
Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands your issues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)

Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:

#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"

#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"

#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)

Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.

You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.

I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 02:53:33 pm
Post count post count! (includes pre-game)

Ashersky - 73
Ahoppy - 66
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6

Thoughts on the post count:

1) Chairs, can you please edit your profile to make a goko or isotropic username? That way, it's easier to control + f and find how many posts you've made.

2) WOW, Ahoppy has 66 posts??? I would have sworn it would be like 1/3 of that. I need to go back and read what's he said, since I seriously don't remember anything significant. Mail-mi at 30 is also higher than I would have guessed, I remember nothing from him as well. These are the two that stick out to me as the more "empty" post counts.

3) Xeiron, Eevee, Nkirbit to a lesser degree...post more!!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 02:54:50 pm
Nevermind, I'm an idiot, Ahoppy has 33 posts, not 66. I was doublecounting and getting both his isotropic and goko username.

Ashersky - 73
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Ahoppy - 33
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 02:57:42 pm
Looking back through Ahoppy's posts, there's like nothing of substance or ANY reads in them. Ahoppy, when you catch up, give us your reads please.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 03:01:41 pm
You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw".  Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).

I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence.  But really we just have a few people stating similar positions.  Most people haven't weighed in at all.  Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree?  IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.

Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know. 

And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.

I specifically did not do that in order to present it as an argument or evidence.  I did it because it's not an opinion I share, my opinion is
I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum.  Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant).
Meaning that I don't think either you or shraeye are scummier for the argument, because it was an argument and in my experience arguments offer very little information about the participants.

HOWEVER

"As was noted" by spiritbears himself (the target of the quote)
Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...

Now, I lessened that (in particular I don't think it's a consensus).  I said "many people".  Because raerae, ashersky, and TwistedArcher had all expressed that viewpoint (and I thought Eevee, but he actually didn't looking back). 

I tried to explain why I said his comment was "adding fuel to the fire" when I didn't say so for others who took a similar strength stand to him.  That reason was the vote.  In other words it has nothing to do with him saying "shraeye scummier" rather than "efhw scummier".  It's immaterial WHO he found scummier, what matters is the form of presentation.

Importantly, I never in that post argued for you being scummy, nor have I to my knowledge.  I have a fully 100% neutral read on you.

Honestly, if twistedarcher had made his post during the argument, I might have considered it inflammatory as well.  But he didn't, he made it after the argument was clearly not gaining traction.  So the only people of relevance here were (in my mind at the time) raerae, ashersky, and Eevee who all expressed the town v town sentiment.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 03:24:58 pm
[Now te author=Twistedarcher link=topic=8002.msg262465#msg262465 date=1372358580]
Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands yohave s toenssues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)

Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:

#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"

#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"

#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)

Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.

You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.

I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
[/quote]
Thanks! I appreciate your kindness...all of you. I can't get out much and you all have become like my family.  Days without mafia are hard to take!

Now..for the not so fun...

So whst I get from this post TA is basically you disagree with my opinion so that makes me scummy---and anyone that agrees with you towny....
Again this is classic scum argument: you are out on that limb by yourself there sb---lets hack it off.
My reading of shrseye is MY READ NOT YOURS. 
MY READ OF EFHW is MY READ NOT yours
I never asked you to agree with it.....but you on the other hand are demanding I agree with you...or you'll vote me, and then you'll railroad me....and then I'll be mislynched...all becaue I have a town read on efhw.
You probably realize I react very negatively to
Peer pressure. I won't change my view of efhw just because you all demand it.  (Btw--nk can tell you how swell I handled the pressure to read him as mafia before he wss mislunched...but I probably shoundt even bring that up)

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 27, 2013, 03:38:37 pm
@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read.  He's asking you to explain your read.  He's using the fact that it's different to point out why it needs explained.

I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind.  And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so.  If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 04:21:44 pm
@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read.  He's askiby o explain your read.  He's usingactive act that it's different to point out why it needs explained.

I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind.  And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so.  If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
That's kindof not true.
There was no other way to read TA....becausie he declared my read scummy and voted for me!
That was either pressure to change my vote, or it was a straight up: sb is mafia.
And actually it was both

As for my read on shraere...how many times to I have to say it.  I read his arguments and weaksauce case against efhw as scummy and weaksauce. i have a low tolerance for pushing bad cases on town reads (It read like the scummy weak case TA has pushed on me...
Actually Ta's case is even worse.
But becsue you all deemed efhw to hold the scumier position in the argument, then I am scum for agreeing with her.  As you pointed out TA-- I hsve read efhw as town most of the game.  How that is a part of your master scum case on me is beyond ridiculous.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 04:31:19 pm
Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of Shraeye. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to, and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHW. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 04:31:50 pm
Come in on the side of Shraeye = Come in on the side of EFHW
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 04:35:00 pm
proofreading is fun

Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 05:03:50 pm
proofreayou're is fun

Quote from: Twistedarcher link=topic=80. That's it02.msg262507#msg262507 date=1372365079
Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:

1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.

Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.

Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.

Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.

Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
That is just so pretentious. 
1) the case on you wasn't weak. I agreed with it mostly. ive found you mostly scummy and your pushiness does nothing to dissuade that read...
2) oh my reads are just so much garbage ....because they aren't yours...so I'm just going to believe someone else just because I'm an idiot. yeah. That's it.
3) it couldn't possibly be thay I legitimately agree with efhw's positions....no. it's just "arbitrary"
4)...do you listen to yourself???
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 05:09:47 pm
Spiritbears, I'm just saying what impression I get from reading it. I'm in no way trying to be pretentious, or saying that your views are inferior to mine in any way. Remember, this is mafia, we're TRYING to figure out when people are making real reads and when they are forcing reads because they're mafia. So calling people's reads into question is part of the game.

My case on you is in no way meant as a personal attack, and I hope you understand that it's not meant as much. I just simply think there's a good chance you drew mafia in this game, and I've stated why.

I apologize if I'm coming off as pretentious, but please try to read my case from a scum-hunting perspective, and not from a putting-you-down perspective.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 05:50:47 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:00:50 pm
Okay, so first thought:

In terms of Ash accusing raerae, the reactions, etc.  I've just read up to the point where Ash admitted he had no actual case and was just fishing for reactions.

The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron.  Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons.   Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player?  And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this).  I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though.  If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.

Other players had different reactions to the case.  TA acknowledged it, but refused to give an opinion until Ash gave a reason for his vote.  Ash points out that Eevee and Shraeye thought it was a ploy.  EFHW states this as well.  These are all normal reactions, in my mind.

The scummy people here are people who were around, and while this was going on, refused to acknowledge that this was even going on.  Ahoppy was present, and clamoring for scumhunting, but as far as I can, never once comments on Ash vs Raerae.  Sitting around talking about theory rather than acknowledging voting, which I think Ahoppy, Theorel, Chairs, and SB, are all guilty of, is what I'm most concerned about in this interaction.  It's so easy to talk about theory and not give yourself away as scum, and less easy to do so talking about interactions between players.  You leave less trails should you be later caught.  I think scum has an incentive to focus on theory talk, so think these players are scummy for doing so.

By the way, that theory talk was horrible for the readability of the thread.  You guys spent pages and pages theory talking about why you dislike theory talk (yay irony!).  That stuff doesn't make for good re-reads!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 06:08:48 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".

It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!

Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?

I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.

Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 06:11:25 pm
Nkirbit, I think out of the group you mentioned (Theorel chairs Ahoppy SB), for the reasons of theory talking but not scumhunting, Ahoppy comes off scummiest to me. He hasn't contributed anything read wise, yet has worked up a healthy post count simply on theory. SB of course I find scummy for other reasons, but providing reads, and Theorel has been providing more reads than the others. Chairs I can't really read, but I think he's town because scum wouldn't item-claim like he has.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:12:57 pm
On EFHW:  I do agree that I get the same feel from EFHW here that I did in Shakespeare.  Whether that means that EFHW is able to hold her meta mostly constant regardless of being town or scum, or EFHW is scum here as well, I don't know.  EFHW totally deceived the crap out of me in Shakespeare, so she's capable of either.  I've never played a game with town!EFHW, so I can't be sure.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:16:37 pm
Eevee was vert active in the just completed mean girls...as scum.  I'm not quite ready to call his lurking scummy. But it could be....

"Hey guys!  Here's this thing that could be scummy!  I don't think it's scummy, but you all should!"

This is the scummiest post I've seen to date, enough so that I feel compelled to point it out.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:17:25 pm
To that point in my re-read as opposed to "to date" would make more sense, I guess.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:22:31 pm
I agree that Shraeye did not push a case on TA hard at all.  If you want to see Shraeye pushing a case against TA hard, go read the end of day 2 of pirates.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:30:54 pm

His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.


That bolded part doesn't seem scummy to me, though.  Like, if he were scum, wouldn't he see there's not the support there and try to slide away elsewhere?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:40:00 pm
Ultimately, I don't know what to think about the EFHW vs Shraeye argument.  I could see it being town vs town, Shraeye as scum, EFHW as scum, any of those make sense to me.

What I will say about it is that raerae's reaction is towny-looking to me.  She made the same exact point in D1 of Shakespeare when TA and myself were yelling at each other, and was town here.  I think she comes off as towny in most cases.  The one case where I would be unsure is if EFHW turns up scum, because EFHW did appear to be losing in the court of public opinion, so scum!raerae could have pulled focus away from her teammate.  But I'm going to go with the explanation that raerae is town here, because it's just much more likely, so town points to raerae!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:45:28 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view.  I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 06:47:16 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 06:48:21 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee
Cool, cool cool cool.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:53:22 pm
Time to end my parade of posts with reads!  Yay reads!

Scum to Chum (Since I hear people like this terminology!)

Ahoppy
Ta
{EFHW Eevee Mail-Mi SB Shraeye Theorel Xeiron}
Ashersky
Raerae
Chairs
Nkirbit

The group in brackets is all pretty much null-reads, and are listed alphabetically!  That's a lot of null-reads, I know :(.  Sway me!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 06:53:46 pm
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 06:57:30 pm
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
"I only regret that I have but one vote to give for my scum reads"?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 07:00:26 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".

It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!

Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?

I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.

Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
I'm getting just so tired of your nonsense:
 SB IS SCUMMY, SB did something scummy! (Hey, that's not scummy) TA Repeat louder: SB wss scummy!!!
HEY look at all this scummy stuff I found!!!!
TA wears no clothes
At this point your tunneling has gone beyond "scumhunting"....way beyond. 
At this point its just scummy
vote TA
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 27, 2013, 07:07:39 pm
Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.

People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.

Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.

Unvote

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 07:09:22 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view.  I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
This is the thing that gets frustrating about being tunneled unfairly...people start to by whst the tunneler days without checking for themselves.  It really isn't that far back, where I explained my read on efhw...and that the read had been consistent since early on in this game. Her observations have been spit on and I agree with her reads. Yet TA claims that's scummy since EFHW IS SUCH OBVISCUM...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 07:11:11 pm
Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.

People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.

Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.

Unvote
Give me a break...you tunnel me all game and all of s sudden when i push back that's unfair to you!!!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 07:12:51 pm
SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 07:14:03 pm
SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
You also missed what I said about efhw......
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 07:15:43 pm
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 27, 2013, 07:16:52 pm
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 07:20:02 pm
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town.  I can see that, although I disagree with it.

2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think.  I would guess 3 scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 27, 2013, 07:23:58 pm
I'm here and catching up. Raerae, you voted for chairs, and you said you would policy vote all claimers, but do you actually think he's scum?

Strictly a policy vote.  I don't have any huge scumreads right now.  That said, he's getting super reread as soon as I catch up.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 27, 2013, 07:32:52 pm
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 07:33:00 pm
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.

I don't disagree that Eevee has largely been in the background, especially early in the game, but he just made a statement defending SB against TA's case.  And then you voted him.  Right after someone does something seems like a slightly odd time to vote him for not doing much.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 08:11:11 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

Here's the sb defense.

Here are the "reasons" Eevee lists: more likely sb is just stubborn; too obvious for scum; no reason to act that way as mafia.

Those three things aren't exactly compelling.  And they are safe things to say from any perspective.  And I don't think this counts as "doing something," as you put it. 

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:29:40 pm
SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
I agree with this. Absolutely no need to get so defensive, really!

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.
He actually make the exact opposite point - that I do not feel like Mean Girls Eevee.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:31:20 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee

So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 08:35:59 pm
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.

vote: Eevee

So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?

You missed a PPE, I think.

But yes, smaller presence generally reads as scum Eevee.

I also think your sb defense was an easy towncred grab, and an easy way to see more active.  Like, you didn't even have to  read any posts to make that point.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:40:57 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 08:41:34 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:43:19 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 08:49:21 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 27, 2013, 08:50:49 pm
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town.  I can see that, although I disagree with it.

2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think.  I would guess 3 scum.



I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.

1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.


2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.



In this case, that's spiritbears.  And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire.  It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town.  Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you.  OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate.  That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle.  Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral.  Say scumScore=26).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 08:54:30 pm
SB TA heat! I don't know if I like it or not. I think it's getting too heated. TA seems like regular TA and SB does seem a little different.

Anyway I think I'll do a scum to chum list.

Eevee
Ash
SB
 Everyone else
TA
Raerae
Me
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 08:54:45 pm
vote: eevee
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:56:50 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 08:57:57 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 08:59:22 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 09:01:34 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 09:03:21 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
Severe usually posts a lot more tho.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 09:05:27 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
Severe usually posts a lot more tho.
Severe pokemon?  I like that name for him
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:10:01 pm
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Can you walk me through how what ash said (about what I said about spirit, right?) makes me more likely to be mafia?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 09:14:25 pm

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.

Here ya go!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 09:15:25 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.

No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance."  I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.

Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:

scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb

Those last two are probably equal.  So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum.  You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way.  And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.

That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance."  It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.

So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything.  But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:15:33 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 09:17:04 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!

Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1.  I learned that on N1.  So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum.  That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:17:54 pm

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.

Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 09:18:57 pm
vote: eevee

Why?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 09:19:29 pm
vote: eevee

Why?

Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 09:19:37 pm
vote: eevee

Why?

Oops.  I didn't realize I was at the end of a page.  Never mind!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:20:55 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!

Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1.  I learned that on N1.  So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum.  That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.

Although..  no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 09:22:42 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!

Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1.  I learned that on N1.  So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum.  That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.

Although..  no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.

True.  To get you lynched as town acting scummy.  That's how we catch scum.  Lynching the scummy ones.  It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 09:24:44 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.

No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance."  I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.

Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:

scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb

Those last two are probably equal.  So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum.  You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way.  And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.

That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance."  It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.

So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything.  But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.

This really looks like a bad case to me, Ash.  You're starting at the top with the assumption "Eevee is scum", showing how Eevee's actions make sense given Eevee is scum, and then using that to say "Well, I guess Eevee is scum!"  It really seems like you're starting your case by assuming your conclusion, and that's not convincing to me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:25:16 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!

Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1.  I learned that on N1.  So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum.  That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.

Although..  no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.

True.  To get you lynched as town acting scummy.  That's how we catch scum.  Lynching the scummy ones.  It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
Yeah, but isn't that evidence of underposting being easy to jump on for scum more than evidence of underposting meaning I'm more likely to be scum?

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.

No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance."  I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.

Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:

scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb

Those last two are probably equal.  So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum.  You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way.  And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.

That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance."  It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.

So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything.  But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
This logic is sound though, I see what you mean now. I do think it's in town's interest to try to protect us from derails and arguments that aren't helping (or even mislynches, although maybe I should have stayed back longer to see if the spirit-lynch would start to gain traction?).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 09:26:44 pm
I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!

Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1.  I learned that on N1.  So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum.  That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.

Although..  no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.

True.  To get you lynched as town acting scummy.  That's how we catch scum.  Lynching the scummy ones.  It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
Yeah, but isn't that evidence of underposting being easy to jump on for scum more than evidence of underposting meaning I'm more likely to be scum?

Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable  that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.

No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance."  I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.

Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:

scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb

Those last two are probably equal.  So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum.  You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way.  And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.

That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance."  It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.

So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything.  But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
This logic is sound though, I see what you mean now. I do think it's in town's interest to try to protect us from derails and arguments that aren't helping (or even mislynches, although maybe I should have stayed back longer to see if the spirit-lynch would start to gain traction?).
Wait if you think he's town, why would you consider staying back?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 09:27:58 pm
Mail-Mi:  To see who scummily jumps aboard.  The same reason Ash voted for Raerae despite having no semblance of a case, pretty much.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:28:08 pm
There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:32:11 pm
Wait if you think he's town, why would you consider staying back?
To see what people think of the case / who joins it and who doesn't! Best case scenario would be that people would start piling on him, and I could whiteknight him before with my incredible rhetorical skills and we would have information on who were willing to lynch him and maybe find mafia (this is all assuming he is indeed town - and he isn't even a townread for me, I just think what TA accused him of doesnt make him any more likely to be mafia.) Even mislynching spirit wouldn't be THAT bad as long as the information on why the case is bad is out there in time, as then when spirit flips town it's useful to look at who thought what.

This is obviously all assuming I'm right about TA's case against spirit not being valid, which I'm not 100% on.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 09:32:48 pm
There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Exactly.  Mail-mi is screaming scum to me here, but he was screaming scum the last day of shakespeare (I thought he was scum and EFHW a serial killer).  I pretty much permanently detect mail-mi as scummy, which makes my scumreads on him worth less than that read would be worth on anyone else.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 09:37:15 pm
Nkirbit, high five!

Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 27, 2013, 09:50:02 pm
Nkirbit, high five!

Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
He's probably town to me b/cuz if you and him were scum partners, I think he'd be distancing himself from you.

Of course, if your town, then I have no idea.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 27, 2013, 10:19:54 pm
I mean, maybe I'm pushing the case on Eevee.  But it's all we're really got for now, and it makes for good discussion.

mail-mi's sheeping was scummy, for sure, but I'm starting to come around to the "that's just mail-mi" thing.

It's not like anyone's in danger of getting lynched right now.  We're talking, pushing suspicions, etc.  I do that with votes, others might not.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 10:23:34 pm
yay new voices!

I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 

X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself.  Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

mail-mi seems scummy as usual.  This meta will work out well for him whenever he is scum, if he isn't now.  Or if he's not scum now maybe he'll seem less scummy when he is. 

nkirbit seems his usual self, as does Eevee.

Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back.  We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today.  So nothing new to say there.


Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 10:29:23 pm
What do you think of Ashersky, EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 10:35:08 pm
Right now I think he's town.  Usually I'm tormented by thinking he's scum and knowing he probably isn't, so I'm not sure what my town read on him means! 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 27, 2013, 10:44:56 pm
Alright, so re-reading here's what I got:
Not much.

Most of what has happened has been theory talk that I have a hard time getting any scum-hunting material out of.  Then comes ash calling out raerae, and shareye calling out TA.  One of these two gets much more attention than the other one: Ash's claim on raerae.  Shareye brings this up in post #394.  He claims that
And then the raerae/ash thing really took off; people were begging ash to say why, people were joining his wagon, voting for ash because he was being bull-headed, and all that jazz.  But I recall only Twisted asking with any persistence about my vote on him.

If one of our "cases" was on scum, and one on town, I think I'd expect a bit more activity regarding both of the votes.  If scum found their partner getting too much attention, they'd bring up the other person.  And if scum saw everyone piling on the town-wagon, they'd focus on their partner and try to buy some cred that way.

The way the reactions fell, it seems more possible that raerae/TA are of the same alignment.

now, I think the reason only TA asked about shraeye's case on him was that it was about TA, and shraeye didn't really push his case.  As I recall, ash hinted about information on raerae in about every other post he made (and he made quite a few).  Shraeye, mentions it once and doesn't bring it up much after that.  This may not have been the case, I just remember from my read-through, I can remember ash's firm stance on raerae, but I can't remember shraeye even saying anything about TA.  That tells me he did not make his case very prominent (or not as prominent as TA).  So this make me think that raerae is town.  Scum could easily have jumped on shraeye's TA claim and tried to take some heat off of raerae, but they didn't.  now, I'm not sure about the cred buying by scum.  This early in the game?  I'm not sure.  So I'm not throwing out the idea that TA is scum, but I do think raerae is town off of this

Something quite concerning that I saw that nobody picked up on was something to do with xerion:
I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.

I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR.  It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor.  Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's.  People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot.  While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot.  If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP.  This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0.  This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away.  Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch. 

Thinking about it, so far, I'm not getting very strong reads on anyone.  so for me at this moment, I'm not ready to lynch anyone.  If I had to lynch anyone right now, I don't think I could.  I would vote no-lynch right now if it was the deadline.  But it isn't so I'll give it more time.  I didn't quite get up to the point of spiritbears meltdown (if I can call it that).  i kinda skimmed it and don't really know the details, but from what I remember from my quick read of it is that ti seems like town spiritbears.  From mean girls, when spiritbears is under pressure he doesn't get too happy.  He seems all towny and stuff until you try to call him out then he gets very defensive.  normally I'd see that as scummy, but the spiritbears meta I saw in mean girls disagrees.  I want to read more, but I wanted to get my current thoughts out there.  I'll do more tomorrow (or possibly tonight, we'll see)

By the way:  I'm also going to have limited access from saturday to saturday next week.  I'll be traveling both saturdays and won't have much access those days, but I should have more access during the week.  Thanks!

PPE: Regarding my post bloating with theory talk:  I'm sorry, that's just who I am.  I can grasp theory and it's easier for me to discuss.  I'm not that great at reading people.  Especially day 1 when there really isn't that much to go on.  It's not that interesting to me.  Later, once I have more information to go on I can contribute more fully.  I know, nobody likes this, but I just find D1 just so hard to go on.  so much hand waving and pointing fingers with very very little evidence.  It seems mostly about meta and past experience.  Neither of which I have.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 11:31:47 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 11:38:43 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 27, 2013, 11:42:18 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

Which part?  I'm not accusing nkirbit, but this also seems like a really easy way to seem like town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 11:43:30 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 11:44:04 pm
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 11:53:00 pm
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 11:55:02 pm
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand

Can you back that up?  Because I just think that's not true.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 27, 2013, 11:55:43 pm
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand

Can you back that up?  Because I just think that's not true.
I haven't noticed anything like that either, just a noticeable amount of agreeing with me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 27, 2013, 11:57:31 pm
Well, twice.  And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 27, 2013, 11:59:45 pm
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand

Can you back that up?  Because I just think that's not true.
Just this game....name one read that you were in the minority on?  Can you name even one time you took an unpopular stand?...in the other game you were just mislynched in it was caused by your refusal to buck the majority...even when they wanted to lunch you! I really think it's a hallmark of your play...which puts you in a safe position usually...but not always
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 28, 2013, 12:00:58 am
Vote Count 1.6

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (1)  EFHW
chairs (1) raerae
Eevee (2) ashersky, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears

Not Voting: (7) Eevee, AHoppy, theorel, nkirbit, chairs, shraeye, Twistedarcher.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:02:23 am
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:02:56 am
I was in the minority for finding information in Ahoppy's post.  I don't even have to go back 10 posts to answer that question.

I'm not going to comment on B2B, but I disagree with that as well.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:04:40 am
I was in the minority for finding information in Ahoppy's post.  I don't even have to go back 10 posts to answer that question.

I'm not going to comment on B2B, but I disagree with that as well.
That's a "hard" or "independent" stand???
This is why we don't understand each other...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 28, 2013, 12:04:51 am
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand

Can you back that up?  Because I just think that's not true.
Just this game....name one read that you were in the minority on?  Can you name even one time you took an unpopular stand?...in the other game you were just mislynched in it was caused by your refusal to buck the majority...even when they wanted to lunch you! I really think it's a hallmark of your play...which puts you in a safe position usually...but not always
also, he has been strangely silent in this game.  I haven't read the other game(s) he has played in other than mean girls, but in mean girls, he was quite vocal D1.  He did some good scumhunting work (as I recall) and here, he's been absent.  so what's up?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 28, 2013, 12:06:27 am
Besides, there was no new information in my post.  I pieced together information I had gathered from earlier posts.  And read EFHW's post from a different angle.  An angle I think makes more sense.  What in my post do you think was "new"?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:06:59 am
I was quite lurky early in this game because I was up against the wall for most of B2B while this game was going on, and the game here had devolved into theory discussion that was mostly uninteresting to me.  Now I'm done with that game, and this game has moved onto case-making, so I'm more active!

And boy I wish I could talk about B2B!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:08:02 am
I'm not sure he's been absent.  I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:08:54 am
Besides, there was no new information in my post.  I pieced together information I had gathered from earlier posts.  And read EFHW's post from a different angle.  An angle I think makes more sense.  What in my post do you think was "new"?

It's not groundbreaking info or anything.  And I'm going to decline pointing it out, because I don't think we should be talking about it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 28, 2013, 12:11:43 am
Well, twice.  And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks  ::) :D

Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.

I'm not sure he's been absent.  I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...

Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:11:54 am
Ahop eas speculating nk. You don't need to treat that like gospel.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:13:13 am
Well, twice.  And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks  ::) :D

Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.

I'm not sure he's been absent.  I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...

Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
I push on everyone....I never for one second said i found nk scummy
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 28, 2013, 12:14:08 am
Well, twice.  And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks  ::) :D

Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.

I'm not sure he's been absent.  I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...

Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
I push on everyone....I never for one second said i found nk scummy
That was literally like 5 posts later. Ah well.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 28, 2013, 12:14:30 am
Alright.  I can accept that.  Now that you have brought to light theory in my post, the exact thing I was called out for too much of, what do you think of my reads on other people?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:14:42 am
Well, twice.  And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks  ::) :D

Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.

I'm not sure he's been absent.  I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...

Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?

And vote: mail-mi

Eevee's lurking was not your MAIN reason for voting, given you had unvoted that awhile ago and voted to sheep my case.  Can't just skip around like that man, and misrepresenting yourself doesn't help.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:15:14 am
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

Eevee buddying?  There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:15:26 am
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.

I saw it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:18:05 am
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

Eevee buddying?  There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
Why are you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if Eevee is scum" perspective? Like, I find it weird how anti-me you are being right now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:18:32 am
SB:  I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today.  But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really.  But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:

1.  I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare.  I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.

2.  I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14.  This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac.  Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?

3.  Why am I doing this?

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong.  And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:19:29 am
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

Eevee buddying?  There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
Why are you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if Eevee is scum" perspective? Like, I find it weird how anti-me you are being right now.

Why aren't you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if {insert player here} perspective"?  The only thing I know is I am town.  I have to suspect everyone else.  I just happen to know you well when you are scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:20:26 am
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.

I saw it.

We may not even have seen the same thing!  But there's a chance scum learned something new, and that's bad!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:21:08 am
I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.

I saw it.

We may not even have seen the same thing!  But there's a chance scum learned something new, and that's bad!

What I saw was bad information for scum to have.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:21:21 am
Yes, I would agree.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:23:53 am
Alright.  I can accept that.  Now that you have brought to light theory in my post, the exact thing I was called out for too much of, what do you think of my reads on other people?
I agree the thing you pointed out about xerion is problematic. I'm not ready to call it scummy.  But it is strange.
Of course I disagree that I was overly defensive--would I have like to handle it differently, sure...but I am who I am. And when I feel I'm not getting treated fairly I react...I'm sure Ta would agree I was overly defensive
I'd like to see more of your reads on ash, eevee and nk though...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:27:17 am
SB:  I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today.  But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really.  But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:

1.  I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare.  I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.

2.  I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14.  This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac.  Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?

3.  Why am I doing this?

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong.  And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:27:48 am
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.

"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:29:16 am
On Mail-Mi.  Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.

1.  Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive.  Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2.  Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3.  Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes.  Whatever.
4.  Mail-Mi unvotes
5.  Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in.  Eevee had come back and been active by this point.  When questioned about the vote, we see this post:

Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.

Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:


Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.


A little bit different, to be sure.

Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"?  And why not, if you don't?

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:29:31 am
Nkirbit, high five!

Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
He's probably town to me b/cuz if you and him were scum partners, I think he'd be distancing himself from you.

Of course, if your town, then I have no idea.
This post is very weird now that we know all it took for his scum read on me to disappear was a couple of not very special posts.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 12:31:00 am
SB:  I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today.  But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really.  But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:

1.  I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare.  I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.

2.  I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14.  This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac.  Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?

3.  Why am I doing this?

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong.  And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2

I know you were okay with Insomniac too.  But I didn't make the decision thinking "Oh, I'm doing this because SB wanted me to."

Why are you doing this, anyway?  What point are you trying to prove?  That I'm not capable of independent thought?  Sounds like a great ordeal to undertake!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:33:34 am
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.

"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.

Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure?  It isn't like you are in any danger.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:34:08 am
On Mail-Mi.  Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.

1.  Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive.  Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2.  Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3.  Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes.  Whatever.
4.  Mail-Mi unvotes
5.  Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in.  Eevee had come back and been active by this point.  When questioned about the vote, we see this post:

Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.

Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:


Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.


A little bit different, to be sure.

Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"?  And why not, if you don't?

You left out the part of the conversation where mail-mi gets asked about it again and all he does is quote part of my case.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:35:52 am
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.

"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.

Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure?  It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:38:20 am
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.

"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.

Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure?  It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.

That's fine.

But instead of reacting so much to what I'm saying about you, you ought to be saying:

"man, ash really seems focused on me so far this game, and I think undeservedly.  We should note that as we watch his interactions.  Could definitely seem scummy."

For what it's worth, I think if you are scum this game, you are playing scum badly.  You were wicked good in Mean Girls.  If I was your partner here, I'd be trying to deflect this conversation elsewhere.  Only Ahoppy has done that so far.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:40:49 am
SB:  I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today.  But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really.  But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:

1.  I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare.  I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.

2.  I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14.  This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac.  Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?

3.  Why am I doing this?

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong.  And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2

I know you were okay with Insomniac too.  But I didn't make the decision thinking "Oh, I'm doing this because SB wanted me to."

Why are you doing this, anyway?  What point are you trying to prove?  That I'm not capable of independent thought?  Sounds like a great ordeal to undertake!
Ok with it+!?!?! We jumped off our main read, and you and TA asked ME eevee or insom.  I chose insom and you agreed...

Braises. Im not doing anything...you Str the one running with it.  Sounds like i hit à nerve. Sorry if you found it insulting. I literally do see you like a peacemaker role...someone that likes consensus
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:44:02 am
Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!

 It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:45:16 am
(Besides). (You are the...)

Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:48:24 am
(Besides). (You are the...)

Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you

You always have a scum read on me.  Except when I was scum!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 12:48:51 am
Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!

 It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.

No worries.  Time to tunnel mail-mi now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 28, 2013, 12:50:07 am
I do admit your tunnels are an asset. Glad I passed the test!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 12:52:17 am
(Besides). (You are the...)

Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you

You always have a scum read on me.  Except when I was scum!
I am never going to live that down ......
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 01:04:19 am
(Besides). (You are the...)

Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you

You always have a scum read on me.  Except when I was scum!
I am never going to live that down ......

You'll catch me some day.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 08:35:15 am
(Responding to it...it's a ways back, but it's directed towards me, I'll get to the stuff in between later)

So, in the original post at some point while writing it, I had included "assuming 3 scum, Pr(2 randomly selected players are town)~60%".  And this converted to "given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum" at some point.
TwistedArcher questioned my "numbers" so I assumed I had actually included the 60% and then explained where it came from (i.e. (10/13)^2).  (this looks really odd now, because I make the first mention of the 60% in that reply)  Anyways, this is why I didn't mention the 3 scum assumption...I had in my mind already made it explicit.  I will make it explicit now at any rate, because it's annoying saying if 3, if 2, if 4 every time.  I'm assuming there are 3 scum in this game or 3 mafia + SK.  SK-hunting is worthless (until late-game), so I will only be looking for the 3 mafia.  Any and all computations will assume 3 mafia, and pretend like they're the only possible scum.

This was a quick and dirty calculation.  As noted, I not only failed to leave myself out of the equation I forgot to not use replacement.  As a quasi-mathematician (I have a degree in math, but don't work in it) the second of those is far FAR more egregious than the first.  The first is a matter of perspective, the second is a matter of accuracy.  To me, the fact I left out the second makes it obvious I wasn't being particular enough to leave out the first.  Actually, I don't see this objectively, if I had said I did (9/12)^2 you would feel better about it?  Because then I was removing myself from the calculation?  I'm doubtful that there are many people that would take the approach of computing the probability of 2 random players being scum that would remove themselves and fail to remove the first town player.  But that's the bit you're objecting to.

Anyways, I think that takes care of your main 2 objections, but I did want to address the "focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye"" part.  The calculation was half-a-sentence in a multi-paragraph post, and I didn't even bother to leave it in there only the result (which is true regardless).  I would hardly say I was focused on calculating anything.  I was focused on interpreting information.  spiritbears' interaction with the efhw-shraeye pairing can be interpreted in two conflicting ways.  One makes him more likely town, the other more likely scum (note: neither is in any manner conclusive).  I needed to choose which interpretation to use, and so used math to decide.

Anyways, I'm moving on from this, because y'know actual scumhunting is more important than this calculation.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 08:52:59 am
Alright, so topics of conversation:
twistedArcher-spiritbears: Somebody suggested this is spiritbears' meta.  In this case of argument, twisted seemed to be reasonable, and spirit lost his cool.  It could be that he's nervous about something, or it could be how he is.  Others say it's how he is, I'll take their word for it.

ashersky-eevee: Fun times.  Eevee feels like town-Eevee to me here.  But, I've never played with scum-Eevee...so maybe that's invalid.  I dunno, I have a hard time agreeing with ashersky for whatever reason (this is simply true in general, we just think very differently perhaps).  Anyways, no surprise I don't agree with him here.

ashersky-mail-mi.  The two players that everyone always finds scummy.  I think ashersky has the stronger position here.  But...mail-mi is always scummy.  It's so universal I know it without having played with him.  But, obvious scum is obvious (as opposed to obvious scum is too obvious must be town, for those that haven't heard me use that phrase before).

nkirbit-spiritbears: this is a pointless argument.  It's not even a scum-read for either of you, it's just a statement of perception from one player.

Happy to see Ahoppy, nkirbit, and Eevee participating more.  Even if it means that there were like 3 pages of posts yesterday afternoon while I was away.
I'm hopeful that Ahoppy can catch up, because I think more useful things have been happening more recently than where his post indicates his reading stopped.

I need to look back and see what I didn't remember, then I'll try to adjust reads.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 09:08:43 am
@Ahoppy: you asked for opinions on your reads.  But, you have very little clear reads in your summary post.  At the end you note that your reads are so weak you'd be happy to no lynch.

Your reads seem like: 1. raerae likelier town. (ash' constant bringing up of scumminess, breaking up a fight).  2. xeiron slightly scummy (unconcern over lynching PRs).
Is that accurate?  Do you have other reads?  (I think mostly you just need to finish catching up, because several players are starting to distinguish themselves now).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 28, 2013, 09:10:12 am
We could use a game plan.  Soft deadline in 4 days?  Where are shraerae, anyway?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 09:43:15 am
Okay, I'm trying to do better at this.  Reads again (from memory this time):
Eevee: 23 (gut-based.  His actual contributions are reading towny, and remind me a bit of when we mislynched him in DS9 for undercontributing.)

ashersky: ? hmm...he's pushing a lot.  Trying to start discussions.  I'll go town-22

Ahoppy: 25.  Very little, but what's there is decent.  He needs to post more, before I can decide.

shraeye: 27. (hard to quantify.  I feel like he's more aggressive this game.  His contributions seem specifically targeted to stir trouble.)

spiritbears: 27.  (Defensiveness is apparently normal, but it does degrade having a town "feel" about him for me.  He seems to be in and around  trouble, which could be happenstance, or it could be scum trying to move towards town lynches.)

efhw: 24. (Why do I feel this way?  Might be the interjection against xeiron on my behalf?)

xeiron: 28.  (Underposting, although I don't know what's normal for him, so this may be invalid.  I'm having difficulty attributing anything to him other than saying that I wasn't scumhunting because of half a sentence in a large post attempting to analyze a situation.)

raerae: 20.  (I'd like to hear more from her.  Of what she's said, she seems simultaneously sarcastic and reasonable, this is what I would expect from town raerae. (caveat I don't know scum raerae))

mail-mi: 26.  (Voting patterns regarding Eevee were weird...trying to temper with "known to seem scummy")

twistedArcher: 22. (He's talking a lot, and encouraging discussion.  Seems townie)

nkirbit: 23.  (hmm...why do I feel this way?  Maybe because he's agreeing with Eevee?  Maybe his feeling attacked over not being on his own?  I dunno)

chairs: 22.  (seems like newer town, having trouble getting into the groove of things, and making random faux-pas.  (also, I don't think his claim was really all that terrible, I mean paper is pretty innocuous as an item))

Hey cool, I remembered everybody.  So, tl;dr:
scum to town
xeiron
shraeye
spiritbears
mail-mi

Ahoppy

efhw
nkirbit
Eevee
ashersky
twistedarcher
chairs
raerae

(I even broke the ties above)
I should vote for someone I suppose...let me check the vote counts and figure out who.

PPE: I thought soft deadline was July 3rd?  (I think 2-3 people liked that date at least, maybe more)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 09:44:57 am
K, I'm going to vote: shraeye, and see where that goes.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 28, 2013, 10:11:48 am
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 28, 2013, 10:20:49 am
58quote author=ashersky link=topic=8002.msg262828#msg262828 date=1372425012]
We could use a game plan.  Soft deadline in 4 days?  Where are shraerae, anyway?
[/quote]
That sounds good to me
@Theo/ahop
=-I agree with Theo about the incompleteness of your reads ahop. Which is why I asked for more info‰
I think the stuff you pointed out about x is the most interesting
However, your no-lynch ides sortie me...is this not the second time youve brought it up?
I generally disagree withnolynch (reslly as a policy ) fi77tnd it scummy. (Never been scum, so I don't know how I would view it if I wss).. --but since you have time to complete you resds, , perhaps you could address this and explain how it'd not scummy...or maybe you agree it is scummy?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 28, 2013, 10:26:53 am
Yep, second no lynch suggestion. All I'm saying is I'm not opposed to it. Is it scummy? Maybe. But I don't want to hamstring us D1 by killing off a potentially key town member. Basically I don't like D1, and I don't get much info out of it. But I'll probably get more once I fully catch up.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: theorel on June 28, 2013, 11:22:48 am
I am as anti no-lynch as it is possible to be.  I will lynch someone I believe to be town at deadline if necessary to get a lynch through.

I do not vote for my strongest scum-read in general.  I use my vote as a tool, and always voting for my strongest scum-read I do not believe to be an effective use of that tool.  In this instance, I think voting for shraeye is better.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 28, 2013, 11:46:52 am
On Mail-Mi.  Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.

1.  Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive.  Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2.  Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3.  Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes.  Whatever.
4.  Mail-Mi unvotes
5.  Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in.  Eevee had come back and been active by this point.  When questioned about the vote, we see this post:

Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.

Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:


Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now? 
That was my main reason, unvote.


A little bit different, to be sure.

Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"?  And why not, if you don't?

No, because he's back from Lurk land and he's looking like good ol' town Eever now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 28, 2013, 11:48:13 am
Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!

 It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.

No worries.  Time to tunnel mail-mi now.
I'll do what I can to prove I'm town. You may begin.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 12:02:43 pm
I'm catching up again.  You all have this nasty habit of putting up like 5 new pages when I'm trying to clear my head.  I'm up to #554 so far, and need to post some of my thoughts thusfar.

Here are two things I agree with.
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!

TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?

The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
I am feeling this way too, especially the last part; this just doesn't seem like behavior that a presence-conscious mafia would put out there.  I think spirit's frustration is extreme, but also genuine.

What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?

Agreeing with Eevee on what?  He hasn't done anything to agree with.  That's my current issue with Eevee.

This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee.  I think SB made that point, too.
Here, I'm pretty sure that ashersky was using "agreeing with what?" to make a point, because it should have been clear from context that he was talking about agreeing with Eevee regarding TA's position on spiritbears.  At the end of the day, I'm most suspicious of the people who have had minimal presence.  The thing is, everybody is searching for a day1 case that isn't 'weaksauce'.  Generally these are really hard to find, unless scum make serious errors.  So I think scum is most likely to be the set of people making minimal waves, or calculated waves.  There have been counter-examples to this, so when I see something bigger, it's good to have a gauge of how genuine it feels.

But the set of people who have existed, but not memorably (at least to me) is Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, Eevee, mail-mi.  It's not a question of posting a lot or 'undersposting' based on one's meta.  Eevee is right that he has had much fewer posts in recent games and has been called scummy for 'underposting' a lot.  But still, him disagreeing with Twisted about spirit is the only thing I remember from Eevee.

Eevee gives a set of pro-tips for reading him
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
But I don't agree entirely with these.  I'm recalling loudEevee who was town from Mafia Noir, another RMM game.  I always take personal-metas with like 8 grains of salt.  My idea of an Eevee-meta is much more like ashersky says
But yes, smaller presence generally reads as scum Eevee.



So I guess this post ended up being pretty Eevee-related, so I'll throw in Eevee's question to the others:
Nkirbit, high five!

Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
I don't think too much of it; nkirbit is still nullread for me.  Like Twisted, he has a habit of commenting on everything that's going on, and sometimes he agrees, sometimes he disagrees.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 12:22:24 pm
Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:

What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote.  I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'.  In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread.  So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.

So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote.  I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron
The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron.  Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons.   Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player?  And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this).  I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though.  If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.
Links to their reactions:


I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for.  Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.


However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote.
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 12:26:19 pm
X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself.  Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post.  I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position.  But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.

Vote: xeiron

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 28, 2013, 12:47:22 pm
Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:
What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote.  I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'.  In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread.  So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.

So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote.  I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron...  I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for.  Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.

However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote....
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.

I'm finding myself thinking I should hold back re: reactions to Shraeye, but that also seems like a very bad idea.  So I'm going to say what I think.  I feel like this post is quite a bit less substantial than it is presented to be, and therefore it seems scummy.  I am also going to say why. 

The first part doesn't say anything new from the last time he made the point about TA and raerae.
I also disagree with the logic, which could mean we just disagree but it feels like it could be a "pseudo-argument" designed to link TA with raerae as town (or raerae with TA). 

The part about Ash, X and mail-mi also doesn't say anything new, except he interprets X's "compelling case" as jokey but doesn't say what he thinks that would imply. 

I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit.  nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy.  And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 12:49:59 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

Which part?  I'm not accusing nkirbit, but this also seems like a really easy way to seem like town.
I agree with EfHW again here.  something like this is a really easy thing to post and 'seem townie'.  Yuma is famous for making pro-town suggestions as scum.

Unrelated thought #2
Why aren't you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if {insert player here} perspective"?  The only thing I know is I am town.  I have to suspect everyone else.  I just happen to know you well when you are scum.
Also, this is a really good scumhunting tactic, especially if you consider players as both town/scum.  I'm reading pot-stirring, hardworking ashersky as town.

Unrelated thought #3
We could use a game plan.  Soft deadline in 4 days?  Where are shraerae, anyway?
As raerae pointed out before, we are V/LA with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8.  Right now her house is filled with boxes for the moving.  Hectic lives=less availability.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 12:54:59 pm
This may not have been the case, I just remember from my read-through, I can remember ash's firm stance on raerae, but I can't remember shraeye even saying anything about TA.  That tells me he did not make his case very prominent (or not as prominent as TA).  So this make me think that raerae is town.  Scum could easily have jumped on shraeye's TA claim and tried to take some heat off of raerae, but they didn't.  now, I'm not sure about the cred buying by scum.  This early in the game?  I'm not sure.  So I'm not throwing out the idea that TA is scum, but I do think raerae is town off of this
Ah, I reread through that section, and you are right here.  I was remembering my vote on TA and the stuff around it as being more prominent, but probably because I was the one who wrote it.  Looking back, ashersky's really did pop out more than mine on TA.  But again, if raerae were scum, her partners could have jumped over to give more attention to Twisted's case (really whether or not he was scum, I'm thinking...it would be better to have attention spread amongt your scum partners than focusing it all on one of them).  So i think raerae is more likely to be town based on these interactions.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 28, 2013, 01:00:07 pm
The first part doesn't say anything new from the last time he made the point about TA and raerae.
I also disagree with the logic, which could mean we just disagree but it feels like it could be a "pseudo-argument" designed to link TA with raerae as town (or raerae with TA). 

The part about Ash, X and mail-mi also doesn't say anything new, except he interprets X's "compelling case" as jokey but doesn't say what he thinks that would imply. 

I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit.  nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy.  And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
It didn't say anything new regarding attention to TA/raerae, because at that time, nobody had commented on anything.  Right after typing thoses posts, I kept reading through the thread, starting with AHoppy's #555, which is the first time I saw anybody else consider that point.  As I said above, I think his interpretation of it is more accurate.

I find tension-breaking jokes to be scummy, I thought that was clear from context.

I think nkirbit was mentioning people who didn't react to ash/raerae at all in that paragraph of his post.

Connections are very important to remember, because recently there has been a lot of terrible lynches (on day2,3,etc) that I think are predicated on "what is happening scummy right now"-mentality, instead of "hey we lynched this one mafia member, let's look to see who had odd interactions with him"-mentality.  I htink the latter mentality is much better, and that we have been drifting away from it since the days when i started mafia here back around Mafia IX.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 01:08:57 pm
Shraeye is correct that I did not list sb's reaction. I simply didn't see it, but you're right, it was there and I should not have put him in the category that I did.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 28, 2013, 01:43:20 pm
I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit.  nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy.  And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
Connections are very important to remember, because recently there has been a lot of terrible lynches (on day2,3,etc) that I think are predicated on "what is happening scummy right now"-mentality, instead of "hey we lynched this one mafia member, let's look to see who had odd interactions with him"-mentality.  I htink the latter mentality is much better, and that we have been drifting away from it since the days when i started mafia here back around Mafia IX.

Ok, but what are the connections implied in the sb-nkirbit-ash interaction?  I guess it's moot now, since nk's omission seems to have been an oversight, but I would like to understand anyhow.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 28, 2013, 02:59:40 pm
I pointed out several players for not discussing the ash-raerae "case".  I called these players scummy, and incorrectly put sb on the list when he should not have been. The biggest implication was that if I were scum, I could be manipulating the interaction based on SB's alignment, by saying something like "hey, I suspected this guy who was scum, so I can't be scum".

But yeah, me simply not seeing his reaction is what actually happened!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 28, 2013, 07:08:43 pm
X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself.  Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post.  I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position.  But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.

Vote: xeiron

I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he  did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.

I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 29, 2013, 12:00:38 am
I am confused xeiron; you're saying that it looked like theorel accidently forgot himself in a scumslip moment, and then say that in his post answering your case that he confirms that you are right...but still you are satisfied with his answer??  That what it seems like your post says to me, but that's just absurd, please explain what you mean.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 29, 2013, 12:06:28 am
Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight.  I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think

Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me.  Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him.  But this felt different.  Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW.  Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions.  SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash.  This is the case that TA presents. 

Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own. 
- I don't need to explain, it's all there

I don't understand the stubbornness.  Just answer the question.  If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote.  Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me".  Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1.  Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more.  TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally.  This just wasn't what TA was doing.

With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.

I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night.  Sorry this is taking so long.

Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday.  I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 12:21:49 am
Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 12:29:12 am
Things seem to be really slowing down here.  What would help those who haven't voted/posted reads?  Eevee, AHoppy,  nkirbit, chairs, mail-mi, Twistedarcher currently don't have votes down.  I'm interested in seeing if we have some trends developing or if we are all over the place.

re: items and all that, it seems to be dropped for the moment, which is fine.  I suggest we do nothing now and if Day 2 most people were able to make useful combinations then we don't need to worry about it, but if there is a lot of frustration then we should revisit announcing innocuous items that we want/have.

What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 29, 2013, 12:48:23 am
Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight.  I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think

Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me.  Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him.  But this felt different.  Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW.  Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions.  SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash.  This is the case that TA presents. 

Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own. 
- I don't need to explain, it's all there

I don't understand the stubbornness.  Just answer the question.  If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote.  Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me".  Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1.  Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more.  TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally.  This just wasn't what TA was doing.

With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.

I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night.  Sorry this is taking so long.

Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday.  I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.
I didn't avoid it.  I did answer. This is exactly why that crappy takedown by TA pissed me off...because people that can't read are just going to sheep it and day "geez sb, how could you be so scummy"
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 29, 2013, 12:54:26 am
And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 01:02:54 am
Just did a super daunting reread of chairs (all 9ish posts...) and came up with diddly.  Is he still v/la?  Chairs almost took a stance on shraeye in the early game but then backed off as soon as the EFHW/shraeye thing started up claiming he was mostly just joking with his vote anyway.  I think it's good to note that he never explained the part of that joke that wasn't a vote.  Just leaving wiggle room for later?  He then goes on to barely talk about theory for a couple posts then, when nobody snapped up on his carefully laid breadcrumb, he claimed.  As history has shown us, the person who claims out of the blue and unpressured gets a stupid amount of towncred and is (in recent memory anyway) usually scum.  Seeing as how this is his first game with us, I'm willing to cut a little slack but not without an explanation so...chairs, ya around?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 01:03:17 am
And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..

Don't. You. Dare.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 01:18:17 am
Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 29, 2013, 01:19:39 am
Vote Count 1.7

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (1) shraeye
Not Voting: (6) Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, chairs, Twistedarcher, mail-mi.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: AHoppy on June 29, 2013, 04:49:20 am
And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
Can you give me a quote then? I reread your ddiscussion with TA, and I didn't think he attacked you. But I easily could have missed it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 29, 2013, 08:47:54 am
I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 29, 2013, 08:48:57 am
That being said, assuming scum has items just as well, chairs could have had the same thoughts as scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 10:18:58 am
I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.

You said you disagree about chairs and claiming suggesting scum but then you said such claims have always been scum.  Is that what you meant?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 10:40:19 am
sb, you are being aggressive to the point where I think you are breaching the civility pledge.  TA sometimes can sound like his opinion is the only one that makes sense, but I'm sure he wasn't meaning to offend you, and Ahoppy was quite civil in his comments.  People are reading you as scummy because of this.  I don't know if it means that, but it's hard to overlook.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 29, 2013, 12:07:57 pm
1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
Could you show posts for this?  I haven't noticed it, but AHoppy until recently with spirit has sortof been a background character in my mind.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 29, 2013, 12:11:30 pm
What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?

Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious.  REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action.  Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 01:06:29 pm
What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?

Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious.  REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action.  Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
Just trying to find a way to jumpstart things here.  Maybe the lull means people have said what they have to say and now they need to tell us where they stand.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 29, 2013, 01:17:13 pm
Vote: TA

I don't have a good case to build.  He just feels "off" here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 29, 2013, 01:25:47 pm
Actually, no, vote:SB.

I really, really dislike how aggressive he's being here, and I don't have a really strong read on anyone else.  This vote is mainly for the aggressiveness.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 02:11:07 pm
I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.

Where's the disagreement then, Eevee?  I'm confused.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 02:35:03 pm
shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory.  EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post.  (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)

No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit.  Would love to hear from you guys!

Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.

Then nothing for a bit but this...

Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish

EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.

Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back.  We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today.  So nothing new to say there.

And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.


Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.

I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?

Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 04:39:44 pm
I agree with raerae that Ahoppy has a scummy feel about him.  I also noticed his appearing right after being called out for being absent - that strongly suggests lurking.  The post she links but doesn't quote ...


... takes xeiron to task for saying it's ok to lynch someone with a power role b/c we all have pr's.  Criticizing X for this is a really easy way to seem towny, just like "don't claim" and "remember we have a deadline".  Then he is careless about his speculating.  There is a long paragraph rehashing the Ash-raerae-Shraeye-TA thing, coming to the same conclusion as Shraeye.  Then a bunch of stuff about how he hasn't read any farther and hopes to soon.

This is far from damning evidence, but from my perspective he's putting forth a pretty weak presence with very little contribution.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 29, 2013, 05:12:39 pm
AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did.  I think his idea is a more logical conclusion.  What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 06:37:17 pm
AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did.  I think his idea is a more logical conclusion.  What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?

That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did.  He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum.  I don't know if that is more logical or not.  It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too. 

I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons.  Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?).  If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it. 

Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon.  I thought it was possible you were bussing TA.  So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting. 

I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 06:39:01 pm
Edit: I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger ...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 09:39:04 pm
5 people don't have votes down.  How many are scum?  Eevee, mail-mi, TA, Ahoppy, chairs.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 29, 2013, 09:47:58 pm
I think I'm gonna reread someone. Suggestions?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 29, 2013, 10:34:26 pm
I think I'm gonna reread someone. Suggestions?

Make the decision yourself.  I actually think that this is kind of a scummy question, in that scum doesn't really care who they make a case on, as long as there's a case.  And when that person flips town (if you make a good case on them, and really, it's Day1, I don't think there are any cases that blow away other cases) you can say "Hey, it was just random I made a case on this person, someone else picked it for me!"
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 29, 2013, 10:36:32 pm
Just did a super daunting reread of chairs (all 9ish posts...) and came up with diddly.  Is he still v/la?  Chairs almost took a stance on shraeye in the early game but then backed off as soon as the EFHW/shraeye thing started up claiming he was mostly just joking with his vote anyway.  I think it's good to note that he never explained the part of that joke that wasn't a vote.  Just leaving wiggle room for later?  He then goes on to barely talk about theory for a couple posts then, when nobody snapped up on his carefully laid breadcrumb, he claimed.  As history has shown us, the person who claims out of the blue and unpressured gets a stupid amount of towncred and is (in recent memory anyway) usually scum.  Seeing as how this is his first game with us, I'm willing to cut a little slack but not without an explanation so...chairs, ya around?

Did Chairs ever actually explain why he claimed?  Did we even ask him?  Seems like a good question to get asked and answered.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: mail-mi on June 29, 2013, 11:18:41 pm
Okay, I'm going to reread xeiron and all of his 9 whopping posts.

Yay for a new game.
First post, included for completeness (also because I don't want to take out a whole 1/9th of content.)

vote: raerae

Not RVS.

Nice explanation, Ash.  Totally a compelling case.

I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.

I don't know if this vote is RVS or if he thinks ash is soft claiming an investigative role, and since ash has claimed that it was just to gauge reactions, and xeiron has yet to unvote, pretty scummy.

I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.

I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

This is a wierd post that I don't get. Just because I don't understand it, slight scum read.

I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.

I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:

Results?  Hmmmm.  Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum?  That was awesome.  Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum.  So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum.  Instead, just vote and make cases.

If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.

I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.

I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.

Theory talk, null read.

Quote
We should not itemclaim any more, because itemclaiming is roleclaiming. That is, roleclaiming of our future roles. The OP says items combination do make sense and should not be easy to guess. Meaning if I say I have a first aid kit, but wish for medicine it is not hard to figure out I am/can become a doctor. We should avoid claiming roles at this point.

I think the best way to maximize powerroles is for everyone to send items they don't nead to their biggest townread.

I like the conclusion he comes to, so townish read here.

Quote
I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.

Null.

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

I don't like the way he worded No. 2. "How can you be sure that there is exactly three scum?" can be interpreted more than one way. 1) there could be more than three scum, or the more incriminating 2) How do you know there's three scum (on my scum team)? One is more curious, one is more inquisitive (if you get what I mean). Slight scum read here.

Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town.  I can see that, although I disagree with it.

2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think.  I would guess 3 scum.



I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.

1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.


2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.



In this case, that's spiritbears.  And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire.  It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town.  Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you.  OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate.  That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle.  Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral.  Say scumScore=26).

Null read here.

X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself.  Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post.  I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position.  But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.

Vote: xeiron

I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he  did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.

I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.

And this is his last post. You don't seem to be planning on pushing anything further.

Now, I know xeiron always looks scummy. But 9 posts in 27 pages?!?!?!?! And I think the scummy outweighs the towny, and he really needs to get back here. vote: xeiron.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 29, 2013, 11:35:24 pm
I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.

So...your reads have changed since your popsquiz?

Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit.  Would love to hear from you guys!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 29, 2013, 11:55:23 pm
I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
So...your reads have changed since your popsquiz?
Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit.  Would love to hear from you guys!
I guess so, but that wasn't much of a scum read before.  I didn't have any reason to think you were scum then, either, I just said that I found myself thinking it more than once. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Axxle on June 30, 2013, 12:13:00 am
Vote Count 1.8

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (1) nkirbit
Not Voting: (4) Eevee, AHoppy, chairs, Twistedarcher.


Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:19:55 am
I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.

raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum town

I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.

Where's the disagreement then, Eevee?  I'm confused.
Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum. They've always always been town this far!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:21:39 am
Oh, meant to be scum town.

... maybe everyone spots the typo by now anyways.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:48:07 am
Oh, meant to be scum town.

... maybe everyone spots the typo by now anyways.

I'm still not sure what you're saying!  Haha.  Are you saying:

Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum town. They've always always been town this far!

That doesn't make any sense!  Do you want to say

Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum town. They've always always been town scum this far!

I'm just not sure :P
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 03:09:07 am
Haha oh my.

I disagree with raerae. She is saying she thinks claims like the one chairs made are usually scum trying to get easy towncred, I challenge her to find even one unpressured "overeager" day 1 claim that was not just what it seems like - a townie that got a little bit too jumpy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 03:14:33 am
If chairs were scum, he would either be:

1)  Revealing the actual item he has.  This seems really bad, as town gets new info from this.

2)  Revealing an item that he doesn't have.  He picks paper, as it's you know, a common item that would make sense to be in this game.  But this risks the chance of someone counter-claiming paper, so I don't think he would do this.

I just really think that Chairs is town because of his claim.  This isn't a regular game where a mafia can just claim VT and have no risk of being counterclaimed or revealing info.  It's risky for scum to claim this early, and I especially don't think a new scum would take that risk.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 03:19:38 am
I agree, although I don't see how revealing he has paper is THAT bad if he is scum. But that's a bad discussion to have.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 30, 2013, 05:28:25 am
If chairs were scum, he would either be:

1)  Revealing the actual item he has.  This seems really bad, as town gets new info from this.

2)  Revealing an item that he doesn't have.  He picks paper, as it's you know, a common item that would make sense to be in this game.  But this risks the chance of someone counter-claiming paper, so I don't think he would do this.

I just really think that Chairs is town because of his claim.  This isn't a regular game where a mafia can just claim VT and have no risk of being counterclaimed or revealing info.  It's risky for scum to claim this early, and I especially don't think a new scum would take that risk.

I agree, Chairs is probably town. Similarily, I think Ashersky is town for this one.

@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)

I would note that the three item thing was in a PM sent to all players (I assume, given BCC) regarding how N0 was going.  The PM mentioned scum QTs locking, which is why I think scum got it as well as town.  So I would count that as public knowledge.

I do not think scum would know whether all players got the same PM, or if the scum QT-locking part were added only for scum players.
The deduction Ashersky does above is easy though, if he is town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 10:16:42 am
I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately.  I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 10:17:51 am
Hey!  Hey, X!  You appear to have missed this!

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 11:11:44 am
AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did.  I think his idea is a more logical conclusion.  What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?

That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did.  He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum.  I don't know if that is more logical or not.  It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too. 

I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons.  Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?).  If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it. 

Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon.  I thought it was possible you were bussing TA.  So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting. 

I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
I keep reading this and I can't figure out what you're conclusion is.  That raerae probably isn't scum?  Because at some point, you're calling an entire scum triple of raerae, me, Twisted.  Why does the fact that the wagon happened early in the game affect your read on raerae?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: chairs on June 30, 2013, 11:24:38 am
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 11:39:12 am
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher

What brought you to this conclusion?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 11:39:48 am
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
Why do you think one or other is likely to be scum?

I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately.  I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum.
Well, PPS with the VT claim was town in Volt's waffle game, I was town with the stupid secret chamber game in eHalc's RMM 1 or 2.

Obviously it's different later, every claim starts to be pressured as they need to make sure they don't corner themselves with being too passive.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 11:41:00 am
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
If you think they were arguing only to detract from meaningful conversation, then are you saying they're both scum?

Man, Eevee just PPE'd me, and raerae too.  Seriously, you need to explain this more.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 30, 2013, 12:30:05 pm
Hey!  Hey, X!  You appear to have missed this!

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?

Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.

Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:35:43 pm
Hey, I'm here. Sorry for my absence, just got really frustrated with this game so avoided it for a few days. Catching up now.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:39:44 pm
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2).  The second one of those is obviously terrible.  The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%.  From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is.  I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily.  I mean it's only ~5% more likely.

I apologize for my bad maths.

I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.

1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.

2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?

I think this is an important point, but it actually speak more to the fact that Xeiron is scummy, rather than Theorel being scummy.

I think that 3 scum in 13 players is a perfectly fine assumption, it'd be my guess as well.

I read Xeiron's comment as possibly being "How do you know there's 3 of us???" rather than a more neutral phrasing of something such as "What makes you think there's 3 scum?" The phrase "know for sure", to me, means that Theorel confirmed something that Xeiron would know is 100% true. He's not asking why he's guessing it - he's asking how he knows it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:45:53 pm
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?

Maybe?  But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?

It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this.  Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible.  I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.

I get what Ash is saying here, but I don't get this. He's saying that Eevee is scummy for making an opinion, but he's saying here that it's an opinion that someone could come to as either town or scum. So why does Eevee get his vote / scumread for this?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: xeiron on June 30, 2013, 12:46:21 pm
I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately.  I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum. 
In Banker's Beware I kept track of map-claiming. Town players was systematicly claiming more and earlier in that game. Scum, espesially you, made almost no claims. And the one among scum who did claim, Archetype, managed to scumslip.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 12:47:36 pm
Hey!  Hey, X!  You appear to have missed this!

Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?

Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.

So, in summary, you are not voting for your top scumread.  I'm sorry, who is that again?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:48:32 pm

If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town.  Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic.  So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.

Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?

Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 12:50:50 pm
Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:53:08 pm
There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:53:28 pm
Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give [c]myself[/c]him a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??

Oops
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:53:52 pm
Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myselfhim a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about???  You can't give yourself a townread??

Oops
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:56:02 pm
yay new voices!

I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 

Why, and why are you sad to say it?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 12:56:38 pm
Fixed

yay new voices!

I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 12:57:22 pm
AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did.  I think his idea is a more logical conclusion.  What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?

That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did.  He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum.  I don't know if that is more logical or not.  It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too. 

I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons.  Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?).  If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it. 

Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon.  I thought it was possible you were bussing TA.  So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting. 

I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
I keep reading this and I can't figure out what you're conclusion is.  That raerae probably isn't scum?  Because at some point, you're calling an entire scum triple of raerae, me, Twisted.  Why does the fact that the wagon happened early in the game affect your read on raerae?
I don't HAVE any conclusion from the way the two cases developed.  I don't find it that informative.

I don't think scum would do diversionary tactics early in the game because no one is in any real danger early in the game.  raerae was not in any real danger and therefore diversion wasn't really needed.  I also think jumping on wagons as a diversion is risky early in the game because it is really obvious.  So the lack of people jumping on TA's wagon is null to me.

I don't think you are all three scum, I'm saying that your logic as modified by Ahoppy's could equally lead to that conclusion.

I independently don't have any reason to see raerae as scum, unrelated to these scenarios.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:01:19 pm
Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 01:10:05 pm
yay new voices!
I think sb is town.  I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum.  I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say. 
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
Why is a hard question and is the reason I'm not pushing a case yet.  It's an impression that I haven't made time to make concrete yet.  Sad to say b/c you contribute a lot when you are town and it sad not to have that and to see that talent turned to evil ;).  And if I'm wrong and I get you mislynched, that would also be sad.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 01:12:02 pm
There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.

I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:14:33 pm
Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.

I made a very, very, very concerted effort to stay calm in the "discussion" when it became clear that it could go downhill. I I chose my words carefully and made sure what I was saying was in no way personal once I started getting told by SB that they were. If I wasn't calm I would have very possibly lost it.

I see further down this page that Eevee and nkirbit agree that I'm "off". I wish I could defend myself but thats a claim I can't really refute...
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 01:15:36 pm
(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?

Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed.  Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 01:15:48 pm
TA, I completely agree with Eevee re: mail-mi...hasn't he only been scum once or maybe twice?  His playstyle makes him a great mislynch target.  Is that what you're doing with this?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:17:16 pm
There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.

But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.

Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.

He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.

(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)

Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.

I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?

What do you think of the weak cases by Shraeye and the other one by Ash? Do you draw the same conclusion?

He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:18:23 pm
No, I don't think mail-mi is most likely to be scum, I wouldn't support his lynch. But let me finish my re-read then I'll get you my reads!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 01:19:23 pm
Where the heck is Ash?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:25:07 pm
I see that mail-mi has made the exact point on Xeiron that I just made. It's a point I agree with, and I also generally agree with most of what he's said in this case. Xeiron's been lurking, as well. Scum read on Xeiron and town read on mail-mi -- he has been playing more actively and getting more opinions out than he's normally been doing, and normal mail-mi to me is scum mail-mi (2/3 games)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:26:23 pm
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher

Why this conclusion? And why me over SB?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:27:29 pm
I do think Chairs is town because of the claim - it's not something I see coming from scum, but it's something I see coming from town. I'm a bit concerned by his vote on me, which followed Raerae, Eevee, and nkirbit all agreeing they see me as "off", but I think it's more likely than not that he's town.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 01:27:58 pm
He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)

In Shakespeare mail-mi was very scummy and town.  He would have been mislynched if it weren't for raerae (>:().  He is being super-scummy here.  I think he enjoys it!  I've decided his play in general is no help in figuring out his alignment, and it's the final wagons or almost final but failed wagons for each day and POE that will determine my reads of him.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 01:29:49 pm
Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 01:39:57 pm
Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?

I remember him speaking least recently plus he's usually in the middle of this stuff.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 01:40:29 pm
Actually, theorel's last post was very close to the timeframe of ash's last post.  I think raerae picking ash out of those two shows a possible connection between raerae/theorel; I recall them also saying roughly the same thing in the wake of mine and EFHW's disagreement.

I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others.  I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.

raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town".  As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy.  Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town.  Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things.  I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.

Now that I look that up, I see theorel making a sort of hedgy read on raerae, involving the calculations of whether fights are most likely town-town or not.  Yeah, I definitely see a possible connection there. Theorel is a null read for me right now, but he's on the list of "background players" that I'd be willing to lynch.  Raerae is being in-your-face and asking all the questions that I want to be asking as well; so townread on her. So I have no huge scumread on them, but like nkirbit/spiritbears from before, if either flips scum we need to remember this in the future.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 01:48:40 pm
(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?

Stop speculating about set up information!  Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these.  They leak info!  I'm probably leaking info right now!

If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!

I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.

I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed.  Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.

I agree that I probably drew more attention to Ahoppy's post than necessary, but I disagree that this is necessarily a scummy thing.  If I'm scum, and I want to draw attention to something in that post, don't I just go into the scum QT tonight and post about it?  Why does scum need to draw attention to a post like this?  It's not like I was giving AHoppy a scumread for his leaked info.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 01:50:34 pm
That's understandable, great and a good defense.  :)

I don't know, I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for. No one is standing out to me (not by actually standing out or by being too far back).

nkirbit and to an extent ashersky I read towny.

raerae and TA would maaayybe be scumreads, but I hate putting this out if I can't back them out in any way.

Others, I'm just very null on. So, town, know that I'm here and will eventually contribute with my vote, I just don't know where to put it yet. I do want a lynch to happen, but I'd rather not just randomly fire my vote somewhere.

PPE13, forgot to hit send.. going to read them after posting!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 01:52:49 pm
On Ahoppy:  I'm not sure what to think here.  It is true that he spent half the game talking exclusively about theory, and only started to give reads when pressured to do so (and even then, they weren't that extensive).  This could be scummy, but this could also be a towny who's simply more comfortable with theory talk than scumhunting.  He was town in Mean Girls, and from memory didn't engage in much scumhunting at all.  His play has, in certain ways, been scummy here, but I don't think I can really say he has played differently than he did in Mean Girls, and I'm not sure what to think of that.  Probably not a townread, but not the scumread I had earlier on second thought.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:54:26 pm
My reads:


Raerae - towny
mail-mi - towny


Scum to town:

Spiritbears --  Okay, I still think that Spiritbears is very possibly scum. He has still yet to provide a good answer to the EFHW/Shraeye question, and he's reacted a lot to the case. The only defense I've heard, from several people, is that Spiritbears' emotional reaction means that he's probably town.

The thing is...we've never seen Spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen a reaction like this before. I feel the back and forth has detracted from the case a fair amount, but the fact is, I've seen nothing to lessen my scum read, and the reaction doesn't read towny to me, either.

Xeiron -- There's several things here. His sheeping of Ash onto Raerae was suspicious. His accusation and statement of "How do you know there's 3 scum" at Theorel is suspicious. He's mega-lurking. All of these things push me towards scum-Xeiron.

Ahoppy -- I agree with Raerae's post where Ahoppy's been very quick to react to his lurking. More importantly, though, is that he hasn't really been lurking, but that he's active, and talking about theory, but just not getting his reads out there until prompted. I don't see any original scum-hunting coming from Ahoppy. Until he starts doing this, I'll have a scummier read on him.

Eevee -- for several of the reasons I recently listed.

EFHW - slightly scummy. She's been active and helpful, much of which was theory early on, though. I found her view on Shraeye, implying that he's likely scum, a bit too certain for that early in D1. There's also the fact that SB, who I think is scum, has been sheeping her reads. If SB flips scum, I would look very closely here.

Theorel -- I'm finding it really hard to read Theorel. He's not around much, so he always posts "catch up" posts, which are so, so hard for me to read, and they are so much easier for scum to pick and choose what they put in there. But town does the same thing, as well. I thought his theory was fine, but equally likely from town or scum, as well. I just don't have anything here, so null.

Nkirbit -- I'm having a similar problem with nkirbit that I do with Theorel. Early on, a lot of catch up posts that I don't get a scum read from but that I don't get a town read from, either. He's been more active lately, but I do agree with spiritbears that he tends to make posts that are very pro-town, but easy pro-town posts to make (the two that stick out are calling Ahoppy out for revealing info, and calling mail-mi out for asking who he should re-read. These both strike me as so obvious and so inarguably correct that I get a null read from them, if that makes any sense). I get nothing from the argument with SB on either side. Null here as well.

Ashersky -- I do this his pushing and prodding on Raerae on Eevee was designed to get information, and catch scum. The problem is, I don't know if it was designed to catch scum, or catch scummy townies. I get a slight town read, but not a large one.

Shraeye - Slight town, as well. Similar to Ashersky. I just find it unlikely that scum!shraeye would choose to push that weak of a case on me that early. I found him townier than EFHW in their argument, and while I'm not convinced there's a scum there, I think if there's 1, it's more likely EFHW.

Chairs -- I just don't think scum claims their item like that. If he's scum, he had a pregame QT, and I just think he'd have been told "Don't do that!!!" Could be a gambit, but I think that's more unlikely.

mail-mi -- I liked his re-read of Xeiron, and he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people. The sheeping is there, but it probably always will be, regardless of alignment. Some scummy stuff, but like everyone says, mail-mi is scummy, as scum or town. Everytime he's been scum, though, there's been HUGE red flags, and I haven't seen any HUGE red flags, just slightly scummy stuff. Given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game, I really do think hes town.

Raerae -- Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.




Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 01:55:37 pm
I would have indeed mislynched mail-mi in shakespeare as well had raerae not saved me from it.

Other than that, he has only played samurais and ninjas where he was scum? Maybe some others, I'm not sure.

About the other weak cases.. they just didn't do a whole lot for me either way. The arguments weren't easy to follow / I didn't find myself siding with either party, it just seemed like picking on very minor things to get the game going. I didn't make any reads out of those, sorry.

(The first line of the post above seems confusing now, it was about TA's explanation about sounding weird during his debate with spiritbears.)

I think calling ash out with semi-strong language is not very needed, dude is allowed to go a day without posting!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 01:55:51 pm
Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th).  Why call out just ash?

Isn't it reasonable to call out Ash simply for being the most active player in the group?  You would expect him to be here now, because he's been here all game.  The others haven't been inactive, but not active to the degree Ash has been, so his absence now is the most noticeable.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 01:58:33 pm
Oh yes, Vote: Spiritbears . I just think he's more than likely scum. Nothing about his defense has made me think otherwise.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 01:59:36 pm
If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.

Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:01:38 pm
If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.

Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.

Such as? I can't defend myself when all you people constantly say is that I don't seem right!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 02:03:58 pm
TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing?  I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:05:53 pm
TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing?  I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.

Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 02:06:12 pm
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:09:06 pm
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.

Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 02:09:47 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:09:58 pm
What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:10:46 pm
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.

This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...

I took this self-description by Eevee as joking.  If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum.  And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.

Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
TA has it right here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 02:11:51 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:12:10 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:13:27 pm
What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:14:16 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:15:14 pm
What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:15:38 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Barring obvious scum reads, I'd tend to agree with this. But I think that spirit is closer to that category than you all think he is.

Can someone give me a reason they think spiritbears is towny other than "I don't think scum would react that emotionally and that much"? I don't give that town cred, and I've yet to see another reason why people thinks he's towny (or that I remember).
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:16:06 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 02:16:13 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.

Are we reading the same game?  Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude.  Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:17:22 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?

If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.

Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like

PPE: Or if Eevee would like
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 02:19:18 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?

If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.

Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like

PPE: Or if Eevee would like

I'll let Eevee make that call.  I don't think it would sway me much.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:20:00 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:20:26 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.

Are we reading the same game?  Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude.  Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
As I said, most of the arguments you guys have been involved in haven't really done much for me. If I feel, despite the tone, that they've been a tad willy-nilly, I don't count it as "something scum isn't likely to do".

Also, for me it's not just being out there and posting a lot. For some people super mega lurking can be a huge town tell because they simply wouldn't do it as scum.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:21:10 pm
What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).

So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:21:52 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:22:36 pm
What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.

Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).

So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
I do, but what else is new.. I don't think the behavior is extremely scummy for him, he is just very hard to read once you realize you always instinctively think he is scummy.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:28:19 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.

I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.

I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:30:18 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?

I agree with this point, and would like someone who has said they don't think SB is scum to answer.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:32:56 pm
TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy?  Have you found anything townie?  If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.

All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.

Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.

I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)

The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.

I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.

I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
Well, the scum read kind of IS that you feel weird for me, as I said I don't like how poorly I'm able to explain it. But, I once before had a similar scum read on you (luckily as an IC then so I didn't need to be able to explain it) - and it turned out to be correct, so I think until I find something better, I should listen to my gut here.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:33:51 pm
I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum.  There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher

People questioned why Chairs came to the conclusion that one of the two are likely scum, but I don't think anyone asked:

Why did you pick TA as your vote rather than SB, Chairs?  Was there a reason?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:35:00 pm
Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:35:56 pm
Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 02:37:59 pm
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.  I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by.  I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many.  Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do.  The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself.  I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list.  I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.

Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list.  I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list.  Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground.  All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why!  The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why!  And why does that make Shraeye scummy?

I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier.  Can you defend him being in the foreground?  What has he actually contributed?
Being in the foreground isn't really a question of "what have you contributed today".  It's a "did you put yourself in a place where you are highly visible and therefore likely to be blown up at?"  I think scum is willing to "contribute" quite a lot, but very rarely are willing to place themselves in the second group.

Does this answer your question as well, Twisted?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:40:22 pm
Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
I know, and I horribly misjudged EVERYTHING in shakespeare (which might actually be why I'm so unable to form strong opinions know, seriously I sucked so bad in that game).

Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..

Maybe we should do rereads on the people in the background to see who fits the scum narrative the best. Mail-mi did xeiron already, but he is another guy who just always seems scummy to me, and much like mail-mi, his scumminess seems the "same" in this game, at least on surface.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:42:38 pm
I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:45:11 pm
Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling?  I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either.  I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..

Would you be willing to lynch TA Day1, based solely on a gut feeling?  As opposed to other lynches we have today?

I don't think that calling any Day1 lynch based on a gut feeling is correct, either.  We have reasons to lynch Xeiron (calling out Theorel's math was weird, sheeping onto raerae was weird), and Ahoppy (lurky, only posts theory until called out to not). Those aren't necessarily correct, and it's very very likely that at least one of those would be a mislynch, but those wouldn't be lynches based on a gut feeling.

Lynching TA right now would be mostly based on a gut feeling, from what I'm seeing from you and raerae.  Would you be willing to do that?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 02:45:29 pm

Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 02:46:42 pm
If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.

How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 02:47:21 pm
I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.

Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells?  This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:49:39 pm

Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.

Took me about 5 reads to realize you were talking about Spiritbears, and not me!

I know he reacted to Ashersky's vote, and thought Ash was scummy for it. But it didn't strike me as being something that was really putting himself out there, either. I'll go re-read it and double check.

The sharp reaction to Ahoppy I believe falls under the same reaction as the reaction to my case. It was simply Ahoppy restating my case, and asking for the same answers I was asking for. So this shouldn't count as something separate.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 02:50:39 pm

Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so.  He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.


Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you.  He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well.  I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.

His reaction to Ash's vote was to immediately vote Ash and continue to call him scummy for tunneling on raerae without a reason, right?  That's about as easy to fake as it comes.  I don't think it's scummy, but I don't think we should be not considering him for a lynch because of it.

The Ahoppy reaction was defensive, right?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: shraeye on June 30, 2013, 02:52:53 pm
If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.

How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?
I guess it depends on how right he thinks he is.  I attribute both of those qualities to him.  He was pretty stubborn in finding you scummy in the SpecQT for Shakespear, I recall.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:56:30 pm
Looking back, I don't get the impression that Spiritbears voting for Ashersky was a "loud" reaction, anymore than Mail-mi's view on Ashersky, X's vote on Raerae, etc. etc. etc.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Twistedarcher on June 30, 2013, 02:57:01 pm
I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?

If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.

We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.

Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells?  This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.

Oh, I never did read that one. He was town in that game?
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 03:13:41 pm
I just re-read it.  He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game.  Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations.  So not quite the same as in this game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 03:16:55 pm
I just re-read it.  He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game.  Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations.  So not quite the same as in this game.

Thanks, kermit.  That wasn't my remembering at all.  Thought that one was t vs. t.  Well, I suppose my point is moot.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 03:18:58 pm
It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.

I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: raerae on June 30, 2013, 03:29:09 pm
It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.

I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.

So it was town vs. town, SB & Yuma were both town?  It matters because his reaction is the same here as there (only tempered a bit as this thread has yet to be locked) but TA insists on saying this is a new reaction and therefore scummy.  This is false.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: nkirbit on June 30, 2013, 03:35:14 pm
Okay.  You do have a point, but I don't think it automatically clears SB.. there are differences.  But I think calling his reaction scummy isn't a good point anymore.  If he's scummy for other reasons, we should still consider them.

That being said, I don't have any interest in going through and analyzing the differences between here and there anymore than I've already done.  Even it if may help, I don't think it's something that's appropriate for the enjoyment of the game.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 04:02:18 pm
Yay, there's lots to read.  I'll be back in a few to catch up.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: EFHW on June 30, 2013, 04:26:50 pm
Well, it looks like it's time to do a TA reread and see if our impressions of him as scummy are actually backed up by anything he has done.  I'll work on that and get back to you.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 30, 2013, 05:11:26 pm
Vote Count 1.9

raerae (1)  xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher

Not Voting: (1) AHoppy


With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Eevee on June 30, 2013, 05:17:54 pm
I'm not not voting!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: Archetype on June 30, 2013, 05:27:45 pm
I'm not not voting!
Fixed!
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 30, 2013, 06:07:20 pm
Where the heck is Ash?

Glad you missed me.

It was the weekend here, and the time difference.  I'll catch up and respond to things.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 30, 2013, 06:09:41 pm
Yep, second no lynch suggestion. All I'm saying is I'm not opposed to it. Is it scummy? Maybe. But I don't want to hamstring us D1 by killing off a potentially key town member. Basically I don't like D1, and I don't get much info out of it. But I'll probably get more once I fully catch up.

I am as anti no-lynch as it is possible to be.  I will lynch someone I believe to be town at deadline if necessary to get a lynch through.

I do not vote for my strongest scum-read in general.  I use my vote as a tool, and always voting for my strongest scum-read I do not believe to be an effective use of that tool.  In this instance, I think voting for shraeye is better.

A bit of no-lynch talk.  I get zero reads from these sorts of suggestions, since it's impossible to know if not lynching D1 helps or hurts town or scum in an RMM game.  So folks being on either side of this is pretty meaningless.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 30, 2013, 06:12:06 pm
Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:

What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote.  I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'.  In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread.  So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.

So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote.  I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron
The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron.  Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons.   Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player?  And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this).  I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though.  If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.
Links to their reactions:


I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for.  Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.


However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote.
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea.  But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up.  It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.

Shraeye does some good analysis here.  I do think it is interesting that my vote got more attention than shraeye's, but considering the Mean Girls performance is still fresh on a number of minds here, and shraeye is generally a more "under the radar" kind of player than I am, I think it isn't out of the ordinary.

The types of reactions to each case are important to note, which shraeye has done here. 
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June 30, 2013, 06:15:10 pm
Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.

1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better.  All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly.  Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye. 
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game.  He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.

These lists are useful, I think.  They're easy to do, sure, but they do force raerae to make some statements.  I don't know why I'm a mystery to her, though.

Agreed on the Theo point.  He's impossible to read because he churns out information like a computer.  He's the true Abed of f.ds mafia.
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: spiritbears on June 30, 2013, 06:25:54 pm
Sorry
Had to step away to cool off
Mostly I'm sorry to ahop, you really didn't deserve that and I just don't have an excuse
I've probably messed this up bad and if you guys want me gone I'll step aside won't contest the lynch
Title: Re: RMM8 Innovation Inc. (Day 1 Start!)
Post by: ashersky on June