Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: Archetype on April 29, 2013, 11:40:40 pm
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RMM8 Innovation Incorporated
"You can have brilliant ideas, but if you can’t get them across, your ideas won’t get you anywhere." -Lee Iacocca
Full-Time Employees (/in):
0. Archetype
1. ashersky Samuel Colt: 2-shot Vigilante. Bomb'ed N1.
2. Eevee
3. xeiron
4. raerae Benjamin Franklin: Semi-Innocent Child. Shot N1.
5. mail-mi Nikola Tesla: 1-shot Nexus. Lynched D1.
6. TwistedArcher
7. chairs
8. shraeye
9. Ahoppy
10. EFHW Eli Whitney: Bomb. Shot N1.
11. spiritbears John Dolland: Tracker. Modkilled D1.
12. theorel
13. nkirbt
Interns (/tag):
1. yuma
2. Jimmmmm
3. liopoil
Please read the Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before /inning. Thanks!
This setup IS a Role-Madness game, so (almost) nothing of the roles will be published. I cannot promise that it will be completely balanced, but I can promise it'll be fun! Axxle has briefly viewed the setup and it's mechanics and thought it looked good, but if a different member that doesn't want to play wants to view it, please PM me.
There will be nothing Bastard about this setup. No Jesters. No Alignment changes. No Multiball. No tricks. I will not lie in any fashion (PINL). No roles are made up, and the game itself is a pretty straight-forward and standard game of Mafia.
Mafia Ruleset (stolen and modified from eHalcyon's RMM-I intro post)
Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable. This includes item combinations, items, etc.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.
3. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage)
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase. Otherwise, I'll make the target of your night action random.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 'bankable time'. See http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bankable_deadline. There is a slight twist:
Day 1 will last 21 days
Each day following is guaranteed to last 4 days
Leftover time from Day 1 will be used at the end of the 4 day period if all time has not been used
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game. Just remember, this is ROLE MADNESS.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity. They will not be issued automatically. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Helpful Links:
(Probably not as helpful as they could be, given that the set up is entirely different from any regular Mafia game.)
- Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
- Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
- Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
- Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
- Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
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Setup Specific Information
An Innovation themed game!?
If you mean the board game, then no. Well sort of. You’ll realize the theme of the game as it progresses, which is cool in itself. But anyway. The fun thing about this game is that in addition to every player being given a neat-o power role; at the end of each night they’ll be able to make their own powers by combining various objects.
Twice a night, every night, each player may tell me which objects they’d like to combine and I'll give them a list of power roles that particular combination may make. They will PM me back with which power role they think that item combination makes. One or more of the of the power roles in the list will be the correct choice, and if they choose a correct one, they will be granted that power role to be used the next night. They will be notified if that particular combination doesn't make anything. Different combinations will yield different powers, but generally stronger power roles will require more objects than weaker ones. Some objects, however, may work just fine all by themselves and all a player has to do is guess that the object will work perfectly fine as-is. But beware of scum's objects!
Regardless of the number of objects in the combination, the different combinations make will make thematic sense and shouldn’t be too difficult to guess. I will say that the combinations themselves are also all set in stone and will be revealed at game’s end. The most a combination will vary will be whether it's scum or town so that each side can make use of the object, but it will still make thematic sense and only a few objects are split depending on alignment. Guesses you don't use will be rolled over to the following night.
To further help with guessing, small hints to potential combinations may be dropped within an object’s description and during in-game opening/closing posts. So keep your eyes peeled.
This may sound a bit complicated, but it should flow pretty smoothly. The nights may be a bit longer than normal with me having to process the different guesses, but it shouldn't be too bad.
But that’s not all folks…
In addition to all the role madness mentioned above, this game will have a No Kill N0 Start. This means that everyone will be able to use their Power Roles N0 (including combining objects), but any kills done that night are guaranteed to fail.
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*). It may not always be wise to immediately claim that you know the specific combination for the 'Cop' power as scum can use that for their own malicious purposes... Flavor is also fairly important in this game. Not only when trying to figure out which objects match up to which power roles, but also in the general storyline as well as in PMs.
Speaking of PMs, each player’s Role PM will be fairly informal, but will still contain the Archetypical (hehe) Flavor Name, Role Name, Alignment, and Description. Flavor Name won’t necessarily be connected to alignment, but it will be heavily connected to a player's role. The Role Name is your power in Mafia terms while your alignment will depict who you will win with and your win condition. A player’s Flavor Name, Role Name, and Alignment will all be shown upon death. The Description will be a short flavorful run-down of your role and will mention any specifics a player would need to know about it. I’ll also most likely put your Inventory here which will contain all items that are in your possession. I don't have a specific uniform for descriptions, so I may describe items, power roles, combinations, certain aspects of your Role PM, slightly differently depending on how 'flavor-intensive' I'm feeling; not necessarily because of alignment.
That should be about it. I think this will be my best game yet and I’m really excited about modding it. Hopefully signups will fill quickly so we can get this show on the road!
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Is this Disney/Pixar?
Like, Monsters Inc?
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Is this Disney/Pixar?
Like, Monsters Inc?
No, but it's better. Trust me.
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/tag
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/tag
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/tag
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/tag in for viewing playing entertainment
/tag in
/tag in
/tag in
FIF all y'all
and confirming /inness
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Alright, I added information specific to the setup. Let me know if you have any questions about it (though some can only be answered once the game has started).
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Seems like there has been a call for signups, so I'll Bump this.
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Alright, again because of what you said in the index, /in.
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Bump!
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Bump!
Is there something here that people just don't like? If the bankable deadline thing is the issue I can easily change that.
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For rule #5, will we know who has been selected randomly?
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Will the roles the items make be in categories, or specific roles?
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Will the roles the items make be in categories, or specific roles?
Actual Roles. I don't want to divulge too much into it until the game starts, however. I imagine that it'll be a fun little minigame in addition to the daily scumhunting. Sort of like Robz's RPG game.
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For rule #5, will we know who has been selected randomly?
Eh, probably not upfront, but if they ask, sure.
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:( This needs to start.
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:( This needs to start.
It really does!
I'll be fully updating Post 2 sometime this week. Maybe today. I'll have to see how much time I have.
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:( This needs to start.
It really does!
I'll be fully updating Post 2 sometime this week. Maybe today. I'll have to see how much time I have.
Oh. And if any spectator that has no interest in ever /inning and wants to learn the secrets behind the setup/look it over, feel free to PM me. Axxle knows the general gist of it, but I don't think he's seen the final product.
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OP#2 is fully updated for Game Start. If you're already /in or considering /inning, you may want to look it over if you have some spare time. If you need any sort of clarification, please don't hesitate to ask. Some questions, however, can only be answered (or will already be answered) once the game has begun.
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Okay this just looks too dang cool
/in
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Vote: twisted!
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Vote: twisted!
too soon
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Hurray it's TA!
Just 6 more and we'll be ready to go!
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Sorry, I have to /out. I'm going to be gone for too much of the game. If it was to start now, when would it end?
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It probably won' start now, so I don't think it matters. It'll most likely start after Shakespeare.
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It probably won' start now, so I don't think it matters. It'll most likely start after Shakespeare.
It will, Shakespeare has started.
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Alright, Shakespeare started, so /out.
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Yeah, looks like this won't start for a while. Which I'm fine with. I'm going to have my hands full running Survivor anyways!
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/in
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/in
Hi chairs! I think you will enjoy this game. If you are interested as a newer player there is also another game that you may be interested in playing.
It is a simplified form of forum mafia with only 9 players and pretty standard roles. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8297.0 Join in if you are interested and welcome to the community!
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/in
Hi chairs! I think you will enjoy this game. If you are interested as a newer player there is also another game that you may be interested in playing.
It is a simplified form of forum mafia with only 9 players and pretty standard roles. http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8297.0 Join in if you are interested and welcome to the community!
Thanks :) I haven't played Mafia for quite a while, but I'm pretty familiar with the concept. I think playing with folks that understand/enjoy Dominion means it should be hilariously backstabby. I've /in'd your game as well ^_^
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do you know Tables? :P
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do you know Tables? :P
Man I so wish I could +1 this.
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do you know Tables? :P
No, but that name -was- the inspiration for my own. I was reading the guild preview, saw his username, and decided if we had tables we must need chairs.
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Awesome to have you chairs! Hopefully you'll enjoy the game. Even though you've played Mafia before, this game is going to be a bit different than a standard game so if you have any questions feel free to ask.
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Ok, I'll do this one too.
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I'm interested, but I don't want to have 2 games going at once. So if signups are still open once the one game I'm in ends, then I'll /in
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/in
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/in
Yeah! Now we just have to have all the other taggers join!
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Shweet. Yuma doesn't like RMM, so I don't think he's going to /in. But Jimmmmm or nikirbt might and sudgy might once Shakespeare ends.
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I probably will when I'm done with shakespeare. But I don't want to be in 3 games at once.
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Cool. This won't start until that's over anyways.
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Will it wait until after my long V/LA? This game looks interesting...
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Will it wait until after my long V/LA? This game looks interesting...
Most likely yes. Kooshie's V/LA too, so we'll be waiting for her too. But once we hit 13 and someone wants /in, I'll have to kick out one of the V/LA people to get it started.
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I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
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I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
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I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
With the way that you make new lines like that, I read your posts as I would read poetry...
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I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
If you have any questions, feel free to ask!
Thanks! The combo thing is a little confusing but it sounds interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing it in action.
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I just can't stay away
Not sure I understand this one
But /in
With the way that you make new lines like that, I read your posts as I would read poetry...
Lol
My typing is often difficult to read
So I try to break it up
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Lol
My typing is often difficult to read
So I try to break it up
That's some real deep stuff, SB.
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Alright, I don't want to miss out on this because it sounds really cool. Put me /in
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Will it wait until after my long V/LA? This game looks interesting...
Most likely yes. Kooshie's V/LA too, so we'll be waiting for her too. But once we hit 13 and someone wants /in, I'll have to kick out one of the V/LA people to get it started.
Thanks for waiting for me! ;D But really, don't hesitate to start it without me. I don't want to hold you up.
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This is immediately starting after RMM6, since nkirbt will /in when that's over and apparently Kooshie is back (correct me, either of you, if I'm wrong). But I didn't realize that sudgy's long V/LA was 16 days! So I think we have three options:
1. Someone replaces sudgy before the game starts.
2. We begin playing, as intended, after RMM6 finishes, and have sudgy be subbed out on Independence Day, or not at all if he dies before his V/LA.
3. We wait until sudgy gets back to start
I've listed by most favorable to least favorable. If someone from RMM6 who's not already playing wants another round of madness, they can just /in here. Number two would work fairly well, but I don't want people's perceptions to be skewed about getting sudgy lynched just so they don't have to sub him out. And number 3 is super not favorable because a lot of people (including me) will be antsy to get another game started after RMM6 ends.
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Well scratch that. Kooshie's is leaving in 2 weeks. Hm.
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Well, I just got killed in RMM6 (Boo!), so officially /in.
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I will be V/LA from the 29th through the 7th, but I should still be available sporadically throughout the day, especially in the evenings. If that's too much of a problem, I can drop out...
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I will be V/LA from the 29th through the 7th, but I should still be available sporadically throughout the day, especially in the evenings. If that's too much of a problem, I can drop out...
Me and Kooshie's problems are worse...
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That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.
As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily prevent now.
You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?
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That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.
As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily prevent now.
You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?
Very limited access the first week (Disneyland), and no access the second (Camping). So no access.
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That should be fine Ahoppy, as long as you have some sort of availability.
As much as I want both you and Kooshie to play, I'm trying to arrange for people to replace you. It really really sucks, but I just don't want to have to sub out players in the middle of the gam when I can easily prevent now.
You'll have absolutely 0 access, right?
Very limited access the first week (Disneyland), and no access the second (Camping). So no access.
Aw, darn. Well have fun!
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Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime. My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
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Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime. My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Yay!!
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Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime. My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Yay!!
Hooray! I have a feeling you'll enjoy this one, theorel.
I'm sorry to say that I'm going to take both sudgy and Kooshie out. Nothing personal at all, but I think it'd be better for everyone as a whole if we played with the least amount of possibilities of subins as possible.
With that said, we need just one more! I've talked to a couple people who've showed some interest in joining, but I haven't had one to say if they are for sure /in or not. And if it's alright with everyone, I plan on starting this game immediately after signups have filled. If you remember, we have the No kill N0 Start, so I don't think it will collide with RMM6 and there is a bit of a lull with only a few players in games.
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Come on liopoil/Jimmmmmm we just need one more!
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Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!
With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
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Okay, I need to play an RMM game sometime. My non-mafia games are minimal at the moment, and this sounds like fun, so I'll \in.
Never played with you.
Well, it's good to meet new people.
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Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!
With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
YEAH!
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Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!
With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)
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Looks like raerae is our lucky winner!
With signups now full, I am sending a PM out to everyone. Please reply with '/confirm' to show that you are still playing. Once everyone has confirmed, roles will be sent out and the game will begin!
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/31021317.jpg)
I have to actually make the setup first
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Confirm.
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confirmed.
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Well we're waiting for EFHW, but she's posted elsewhere, so I assume she knows.
This thread is now locked. Axxle is briefly reviewing the setup (and anyone who wants to can too), so once he's done and I've made any necessary minor adjustments, I'll send out Role PMs and the game will begin!
Thread Locked.
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Role PMs are being sent out so PLEASE remember while playing that...
1. I don't follow a strict uniform for all Role PMs or powers or anything, so I'll word things differently however I want; regardless of a player's alignment. So please don't auto-lynch somebody because the wording on their claim doesn't completely add up with yours.
2. N0 Start, ya'll. You have 48 hours to get your actions in, and then a 24 hour period for combining objects. Nights won't usually be this long, but it's a new game and the weekend, so I'll be generous.
3. Flavor is important, so watch what you claim. It may be more detrimental to your team that you may think.
4. There are no made up roles, but I have put some twists on some standard roles. Still, there's nothing too insane you should be worried about.
5. Things may be a bit confusing, so if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask me. I want this first night to run as smoothly and error-free as possible.
6. Big shout out to Axxle for reviewing and tweaking this setup. I can't thank you enough.
7. Have fun! It's just a game! I'll take any action I see necessary to ensure everyone's having a good time. But the prevent rather than mitigate any problems, all you guys need to do is just remember the Civility Pledge. Thanks!
And now without further ado...the Role PMs! You may start submitting actions as soon as you receive yours. If you haven't received one in the next half an hour, let me know.
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And to clear up any confusion:
Town is green and their wincon is: "Eliminate all threats to the Town". Town wincons aren't included in your Role PM, so look here
Scum will have their own alignment and wincon found in their Role PM.
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Alright, they're all out.
No rush, but you have ~48 hours to get your night actions in.
Good luck!
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/tag
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In the near distant future...
A man with no name designs a Time Machine and starts up a company by the name of 'Innovation Inc.'. Using his invention he manages to hire the greatest inventors our world as ever known to bring innovation to this unoriginal world. The pay may not be great, but they all get to do the thing they all love: Invent. But looks like not everyone is as big of a boon to humanity as they are perceived...
Today is the first day of the job.
--
At the crack of dawn, the CEO gathers up all 13 employees into the main lobby with his faithful associate Archetype at his side.
"Welcome to Innovation Incorporated!" He yells. Everyone cheers gleefully.
"I hope you all were able to meet with one another last night and get to know each other. Hopefully you put those complimentary items to good use! Now then, let's get down to business. Our deadline is this week and we need to-"
The BANG! of gunfire echoed around the lobby. Everyone looked around for where it could've come from, but then Archetype yelled that the CEO had been shot. The medical staff rushes over to try and keep him alive, but it's no use. The bullet had pierced his abdomen and he was loosing blood too quickly. Archetype neels down next the CEO and grabs his head. But there was nothing they could do (health care hasn't improved much either).
In his dying breath, the CEO whispers into Archetype's ear, "...no one leaves...until my killer is caught..." The CEO gives one last breathe, then slumps over. Dead.
Archetype carefully releases the CEO's head and stands up, motioning to the medical staff to take care of the body. He grabs the microphone and shouts angrily into it, "You heard the man! Board up the windows, lock the doors, engage the alarm! No one leaves the building until we find who's responsible for this!"
Day 1 Start!
Not Voting (13) ashersky, Eevee, xieron, raerae, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, spiritbears, theorel, nkirbit.
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
(I will remind you all one last time to make sure to read post #2 and constantly refer back to it and your Role PM. It'll be more useful than you think.)
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First: first!
Second: Vote: Robz
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First: first!
Second: Vote: Robz
Second in. vote mai
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Sorry. That just had to be done
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First: first!
Second: Vote: Robz
Second in. vote mai
OMGUS Vote: sb
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Double OMGUS!!!
vote vote mai mai
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Yay for a new game.
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Hi everyone!
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Yay for a new game.
Super scummy Vote: xeiron
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Hi everyone!
vote ta
The death cart cult does not approve
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Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
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Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Sarcasm?!?!?!?! Vote: ahops
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Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
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Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
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Well...maybe not ANY combinations, I suppose. But I'd be very careful. Just saying that people should make sure they keep their information private, and consider whether or not making something public knowledge would potentially be more beneficial to town or to scum.
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.
I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.
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Vote Count 1.0
AHoppy (2) spiritbears, mail-mi
Not Voting: (11) ashersky, Eevee, xeiron, raerae, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Wow, that's a looooong D1. Since we're using bankable time we definitely should have a soft deadline.
The end of next week seems like it would give us enough time, but that's 4th of july for us Americans. Would before or after that weekend be better for everyone?
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.
I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.
It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what. Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck. That's my opinion anyway. I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.
Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today. Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum. Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win.
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.
I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my
Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today. Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum. Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win.
My favorite deli meat is ham
,
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
I don't know, exactly. I'm sure it's going to come up -- flavor-claiming, definitely not role-claiming, but some combination. It's too central to this game to not have it come up at some point today. I'm sure Ashersky or someone will come in with a great post to move the game forward, and I think it should absolutely be discussed, but unless there's a compelling reason, I'm going to stand against claiming.
I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.
It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what. Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck. That's my opinion anyway. I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.
Once again, I will vote anybody claiming anything related to their role/flavor/favorite deli meat/etc. today. Claiming screws over town and is too easy to fake as scum. Don't give them that opportunity and they actually have to work to win.
My favorite deli meat is ham!
Quoting fixed
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Vote: mail-mi for picking the wrong favorite and claiming.
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Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
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Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
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Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
Ooh totally forgot about pastrami yep that's my favorite.
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Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
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Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong
And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
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Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong
And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
Well the turkey has to be seasoned...
And I agree, the theory talk isn't the best, but where do you suggest we start then?
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Turkey is better. Pastrami is best though.
The second part is correct even if the first part is totally horribly scummily wrong
And raerae is completely right about that horrid theory talk...
Well the turkey has to be seasoned...
And I agree, the theory talk isn't the best, but where do you suggest we start then?
We could start by lynching lurkers....that seems to get the ball rolling usually...
unvote till I can see who's avoiding our fun game here
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vote ash
For not immediately winning the post count race
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Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
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Ok. But even with the time dif is expect at least 35 posts by now...
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Right on cue and legitimizing my vote to boot!
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Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
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Vote Count 1.1
AHoppy (1) mail-mi
mail-mi (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (1) ashersky
Not Voting: (9)Eevee, xeiron, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Is it because she doesn't like theory?
And Unvote
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Anybody claiming D1 will get my vote no matter what. Seriously. Don't do it.
TA, what theory talk are you interested in? I despise theory talk almost as much as claiming but fully understand I'm in the minority there.
I completely understand your opposition to claiming -- but why do you dislike theory? From my point of view, even if it doesn't really lead anywhere, if people are careful about it, it gets good discussions going, makes people put in an opinion on the theory, and can sometimes be beneficial.
It doesn't lead anything anywhere and people end up thinking other people are scummy for disagreeing with their position and then it's usually town on town or scum on town so town loses no matter what. Also, it wastes a ton of time and pages and then rereads suck. That's my opinion anyway. I understand games have to start somewhere and that 'somewhere' is usually RVS or theory but that doesn't mean I like it.
Raerae and I (for new players who don't know, we 'know' eachother in real life; and I'm literally in her house right now) have often talked to eachother about theory stuff. The problem I find with theory talk is that people reach irreconcilable differences based on how they think about the game. and then, Person A assumes that because Person B "isn't being reasonable, and is scummily disagreeing even though they know they're wrong." And we run down the idiotic path of "these two are arguing; that means there's one scum in A/B!".
But theory in small doses is useful, I suppose. Like, if somebody has discovered any quirks about this setup that are useful to know, I want to know them. I just don't want the thread totally swamped in a useless back and forth. I can't speak for raerae specifically, but it seems that she's essentially saying that.
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Also, vote: Twistedarcher
not RVS.
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Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
Have you played with ashersky before? Would you say ashersky is normally one of the more talkative players?
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Also, vote: Twistedarcher
not RVS.
Then why?
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I was assuming Ashersky was planning on coming back with reasons when he had time
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Well he is in Australia right? Isn't that 5:30am there? I'm sure he'll start posting up a storm in a few hours
Have you played with ashersky before? Would you say ashersky is normally one of the more talkative players?
I played with him in my only other game I've played, which you modded... (mean girls). In that game, yes he was pretty talkative.
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vote: shraeye
Kind of RVS (He's running the other game I'm playing).
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So now we're all just voting without reasons but clarifying it isn't RVS?
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I didn't kill him, I swear.
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I didn't kill him, I swear.
What do you think about all this random not random voting?
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I didn't kill him, I swear.
What do you think about all this random not random voting?
Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it. I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.
What do you think?
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I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
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I didn't kill him, I swear.
What do you think about all this random not random voting?
Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it. I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.
What do you think?
Well, when somebody says they're seriously voting for somebody, I...erm...take that seriously. Two people specifically stated their votes aren't RVS yet you still think they're joking?
In your dream world, how would you get this game started?
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Why would you be suspicious? Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.
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I didn't kill him, I swear.
What do you think about all this random not random voting?
Getting a game started can be hard.. if this is what people want to do to try and get it started, I have no problem with it. I'm taking very little (if any) of it seriously, though.
What do you think?
Well, when somebody says they're seriously voting for somebody, I...erm...take that seriously. Two people specifically stated their votes aren't RVS yet you still think they're joking?
In your dream world, how would you get this game started?
I'll take them seriously when they come back with reasons. Until then, I won't.
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Why would you be suspicious? Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.
Obviously, this isn't like the most solid suspicion ever, but they could be throwing out there that they find someone scummy to see if anyone else will pull anything there. Like, for example, but Ashersky could be throwing Raerae out there, causing me to go and re-read Raerae's last couple of posts for something scummy, and see if anything gains momentum. It's a pretty easy way to say "Go reread this person! I think she's scummy!" but also back off and say it was actually just RVS.
I never read it as a joke...when they said it wasn't RVS I took them seriously. If there's joking about it, it's a silly misleading joke, and misleading is never good for townmembers. I really don't think either vote was a joke.
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Why would you be suspicious? Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.
Even though they SPECIFICALLY said their votes are not RVS?
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With threads like this, I'm going to have to start a bible on you guys to refer to in future games :P
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This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*). It may not always be wise to immediately claim that you know the specific combination for the 'Cop' power as scum can use that for their own malicious purposes... Flavor is also fairly important in this game. Not only when trying to figure out which objects match up to which power roles, but also in the general storyline as well as in PMs.
I believe this post is the one everyone expected.
So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming. Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming. Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.
I've played every single Archetype game on f.ds (I think). I've been on multiple teams with Archetype. We've co-modded together. Reading my PM, and thinking back on other games, I believe I understand where he's coming from with the post above.
(As an aside, I totally get shraeye's point for why he is generally not a fan of theory talk, which I think is inseparable from claiming. Unlike raerae, who just has a visceral reaction to it, shraeye has a sensible reason, which is almost always true. Players DO come up with ideas about the set-up, and then they DO try to fit everyone into it, and then they DO let that paint the way they see other players in the game. Set-up theory is NOT scumhunting. It is a useful tool though, if you don't let it decide who is and isn't scum for you.)
So, what do we know (publically)? It's RMM, so we can assume no traditional "VT" roles. There are "inventions" we make from stuff. More stuff generally = better inventions. We have to guess from a list to figure it out.
And that's it. We don't know the number of scum, or scum teams. We don't know anything whatsoever about the PRs in the game. We don't know a bunch of other stuff.
BUT! We do know stuff. I know stuff. You know stuff. We also know about "stuff" in the context of the game. Each of us has more information than the other. What we don't know is how sharing that information can help town (or scum).
So. Mass claiming. It's a hobby of mine. I design games with claiming in mind. I build in fake claims into my scum roles. As an example, in Ninjas and Samurai, a normal game, I provided fake claims within the scum flavor without ever saying "here's your fake claim!" Because here's the thing: if a massclaim breaks the game, or ends the game with little to no effort, that doesn't make for a fun game. So mods do their best to take that into consideration (and sometimes fail horribly, like me and what I thought was going to be the awesomest blitz game ever).
What could we mass claim here? Roles? Check. Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information? Check. Night action Results? Check.
What SHOULD we mass claim here? Roles? No way. Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information? Nope. Night action Results?
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
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Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
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I agree generally with what you're saying, but how does this make Raerae scummy? Her visceral reaction to claiming is present when she's town, as well.
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Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome.
Ash, you should just make this your signature or something if you're going to keep bringing it up :P
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I believe this post is the one everyone expected.
So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming. Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming. Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.
...
What SHOULD we mass claim here? Roles? No way. Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information? Nope. Night action Results?
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
It does seem odd that for someone who professes to be correct 100% of the time that claiming is good, you don't seem to want to claim here.
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I believe this post is the one everyone expected.
So, as anyone who has played this game with me knows, I LOVE claiming. Probably as much as raerae HATES claiming. Let me break down why I am correct 100% of the time and raerae is only correct 90% of the time, in the context of this game.
...
What SHOULD we mass claim here? Roles? No way. Invention/stuff/guessing/combinations information? Nope. Night action Results?
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum AND not outed a power role. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
It does seem odd that for someone who professes to be correct 100% of the time that claiming is good, you don't seem to want to claim here.
I'm correct 100% of the time given I love claiming. I also temper that with knowing when we should and shouldn't claim. I'm going to send yuma into a tizzy now because he's not in this game and can't post, but we would have so demolished his team had we all just followed my plan on Masons and Monks.
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Also, hyperbole.
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Also, vote: Twistedarcher
not RVS.
Are you SURE?? Or are you joking?
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I'm correct 100% of the time given I love claiming. I also temper that with knowing when we should and shouldn't claim. I'm going to send yuma into a tizzy now because he's not in this game and can't post, but we would have so demolished his team had we all just followed my plan on Masons and Monks.
I'll tizzy for him - no way!
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I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this. How so?
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I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out. But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.
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I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this. How so?
nvm, I see you answered this already. It does seem to draw more attention to the voter than the votee, though.
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I'm assuming and hoping that people are coming back with reasons. If not, then I'm not going to take any of it seriously, and I'll be very suspicious of Ashersky + Shraeye.
If you are going to be very suspicious, that means you think scum could benefit from doing this. How so?
It's in reply #133 (or maybe one or two off, I remember that being an issue with us before - are your post #s still different than mine?). But basically, it could be trying to get someone else to make a case, or read a person more closely, to see if there's anything there. And it's simply enough to back off and be like "Just kidding, guys, it was a joke!" if no one comes up with anything. Ash and Shraeye also arent the two people I would pick as most likely to make a RVS-but-not-RVS joke, anyways, so it would be odd, at the very least.
Once again though I seriously doubt either was RVS or a joke
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I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out. But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.
I think D2 we'll have a better idea of how claiming may or may not help us. I think D3 we definitely claim.
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I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out. But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.
The puzzle aspect certainly makes it more fun. But right now, there's nothing we really gain. We favor claim, and I'm sure scum will have good fakeclaims more than likely. Combination claiming doesn't help guide us to a correct lynch today. Results claim, that could work, but once again, someone with a correct result should try to guide us to the correct lynch rather than coming out immediately. So yeah, claiming's probably not great today, and we should just play it like a normal day I suppose.
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To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well. However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
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LOL, and I see Twistedarcher mentioned the downside to flavor claim while I was writing :P
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To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well. However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Haha, yeah, I beat you on this. I think the only utility to this would be to catching scum in a lie later. The downside is that if roles presuppose items (which they probably do, I'm sure), it gives scum information that could help to possibly guide their NKs.
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To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well. However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Where did you get those names?
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
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Oh my gosh. Let's mass claim everything we know and then name the scum team D1, shall we, Ash? Because you're never ever wrong, are you? And you've never ever fake-claimed as scum, have you? And town has never ever lynched one of their two PRs after believing your fake-claim, have they?
Also, kermit, question in case you missed it.
Why would you be suspicious? Even if they don't have reasons, it looks like a joke to me.
Even though they SPECIFICALLY said their votes are not RVS?
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
Is this RVS?
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
Or you could actually try to play this game and come up with one of your own?
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I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?
Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?
Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..
I'd love to hear his answer.
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I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
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I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.
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Vote: Xerion
Trying to out a role. This conversation can nowhere but forcing Ash to confirm or deny the validity of your accusation. If I'm wrong, what where you hoping to accomplish with that post.
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vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Anything more? Or would it cause you to claim?
Going claim fishing there, AHoppy?
Eh, I think it's a fair question. He's asking for more, but saying that if it's something Ashersky shouldn't say, he'd understand that..
I'd love to hear his answer.
TA had it right. I was trying to figure out why he didn't say more, and that was the only reason I could see
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To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well. However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Well, all I know is if I were making this game, Tesla would most certainly not be scum, but Edison would.
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Vote: Xerion
Trying to out a role. This conversation can nowhere but forcing Ash to confirm or deny the validity of your accusation. If I'm wrong, what where you hoping to accomplish with that post.
I strongly disagree with Xeiron's post, but I don't think it comes from scum. I'd imagine scum would be much more careful about potential role-fishing, and wouldn't want to put that possibility out there, knowing that they WILL catch flak for it..
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I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.
I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.
I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
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Vote Count 1.2
xeiron (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (2) ashersky, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
Not Voting: (7) Eevee, mail-mi, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Have Eevee or theorel posted yet?
Lurkers.
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I would really like to hear from Eevee And theorel
Vote: eevee
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I always wish we could claim because more information means a better puzzle to figure out. But I can't think of any way it would be helpful right now.
The puzzle aspect certainly makes it more fun. But right now, there's nothing we really gain. We favor claim, and I'm sure scum will have good fakeclaims more than likely. Combination claiming doesn't help guide us to a correct lynch today. Results claim, that could work, but once again, someone with a correct result should try to guide us to the correct lynch rather than coming out immediately. So yeah, claiming's probably not great today, and we should just play it like a normal day I suppose.
"Nothing we really gain" is probably incorrect; it's fairer to say that we won't realize what we've gained from a mass claim. Scum, on the other hand, would gain MORE useful information out of the gate.
That's why I think the mass claim should come later.
The only way I see a mass claim work on D1 in this game is that every single town member full claims every single thing possible, then we take all that information and analyze it, THEN full claim again based on what we all learned from each other. THEN we try to figure out the fake parts from scum.
And I think that's too hard to pull off due to the size of the endeavor, the high chance that some town refuse outright, and the risk involved in feeding all that info into raerae's hands to use against town.
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To be fair, one fun thing we can (not necessarily should) do is discuss our flavor, which if I understand correctly does not give away our roles (e.g. is Nikola Tesla scum? is it one of the Wright brothers, perhaps? What can I get out of knowing Galileo is in our game?), it does give us perhaps some more information, if done well. However, as with all information, how much will this benefit town vs how much will this benefit scum is going to be tricky, because (again, if I understand correctly) the scum win conditions may not entirely line up with traditional fare.
Where did you get those names?
Random famous duders from history.
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You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.
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You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.
What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
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Ash I still don't know why you think raerae is scummy. Can you explain this?
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You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.
What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
The OP says if you guess a combination right you get a 1-shot power, in addition to your role from your PM.
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You know, a lot of our roles are going to be 1-shot, based on getting combinations right.
What? I think our roles and combinations are unrelated. Can you clarify this?
The OP says if you guess a combination right you get a 1-shot power, in addition to your role from your PM.
It doesn't necessarily say one-shot
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One or more of the of the power roles in the list will be the correct choice, and if they choose a correct one, they will be granted that power role to be used the next night.
That makes it sound like one shot to me. Just how I interpreted things.
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Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
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I'm under the impression that claiming a result may actually not be that bad. In a normal game, you might not want to as if you claim a cop result, that means your cop is almost certainly either getting killed or at the very least roleblocked that night. But here, if cop is just a 1-time thing you get from combining a set of items, a cop result may not be horrible as when you claim and get killed, we don't actually lose a cop, just a person who at one point was a 1-time-cop.
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I'm under the impression that claiming a result may actually not be that bad. In a normal game, you might not want to as if you claim a cop result, that means your cop is almost certainly either getting killed or at the very least roleblocked that night. But here, if cop is just a 1-time thing you get from combining a set of items, a cop result may not be horrible as when you claim and get killed, we don't actually lose a cop, just a person who at one point was a 1-time-cop.
AND we might have a watcher to see who targets that person.
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But today, we have no results from 1-shot roles. Tomorrow we might.
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But today, we have no results from 1-shot roles. Tomorrow we might.
I mean from 1-shot roles gained from combinations. There might be other 1-shot roles who may choose to be quiet for the time being depending on what else they may be able to do.
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I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Obviously you might not be able to clarify but I have no idea what you mean by this...how would wifom not throw town off just as much?
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I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Obviously you might not be able to clarify but I have no idea what you mean by this...how would wifom not throw town off just as much?
I'll say more D2 if it looks like it would be helpful. I'm just trying to figure out a means of communication that would help townies maybe get items they need but still leave enough unclarity that scum wouldn't have clear targets. Whispering would also be nice. I bring it up now so other people can be thinking about it too. For example, a townie gets lynched and tells their item recipe for cop during twilight ...
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky
WIFIM for town might be good.
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Where is raerae to start yelling at people?
Everyone is giving away WAY TOO MUCH INFORMATION with your "idle speculation."
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What's "WIFOM" or "WIFIM"?
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What's "WIFOM" or "WIFIM"?
Wine In Front OF Me. It's from The Princess Bride. You know, poison in one cup, the one in front of me or you, blah blah blah.
It's where caught scum says "chairs is my partner!" and then dies. Did he say that to get us to mislynch chairs? Or did he say that so we would think he was lying and was actually saving chairs? Or was he saying that thinking it was a lie but really isn't so we do need to lynch him?
That's WIFOM.
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Question: Would we be in that bad of a situation if we did a no-lynch? What is the consensus on a D1 no lynch? Assuming there are not that many scum, we don't have a great shot at hitting scum D1, so we'll probably just kill some of our PR's. The only reason it would be good if we mislynch town is it gives us more information, which when using all our fancy PR's at night could be useful. Don't get me wrong, a mislynch is terrible. We are closer to losing, but at the same time it can give town more information about the setup and what kind of things to expect in the future. Although, for all I know, RMM may be easier to spot scum D1. I don't know, my only mafia experience I felt D1 was kinda just a lot of mudslinging that ended in a mislynch and the information didn't help much later (I didn't look back at D1 much, but maybe I should have). Any thoughts?
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Question: Would we be in that bad of a situation if we did a no-lynch? What is the consensus on a D1 no lynch? Assuming there are not that many scum, we don't have a great shot at hitting scum D1, so we'll probably just kill some of our PR's. The only reason it would be good if we mislynch town is it gives us more information, which when using all our fancy PR's at night could be useful. Don't get me wrong, a mislynch is terrible. We are closer to losing, but at the same time it can give town more information about the setup and what kind of things to expect in the future. Although, for all I know, RMM may be easier to spot scum D1. I don't know, my only mafia experience I felt D1 was kinda just a lot of mudslinging that ended in a mislynch and the information didn't help much later (I didn't look back at D1 much, but maybe I should have). Any thoughts?
I could be convinced, given the setup and RMM nature of things.
But you are just going to take a bunch of flak for even bringing it up.
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I figured I might, but I'm pleading inexperience. I have to learn somehow, and it seems like a viable option to me. Is it the best? No, lynching scum is the best. But I'm know I can't read people well enough to do that D1, especially if scum are vets.
mods: What are we going to find out upon death? Their role? Flavor? inventory? all of the above? just their alignment?
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Post count!
ashersky: 14
Eevee: 0
xieron: 4
raerae: 13
mail-mi: 12
TwistedArcher: 22
chairs: 6
shraeye: 3
Ahoppy: 10
EFHW: 12
spiritbears: 10
theorel: 0
nkirbit: 8
Removed pre-game posts. 2 folks at ZERO.
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Removed pre-game posts. 2 folks at ZERO.
We can't have that. And since I know Eevee better,
Vote: Eevee until you start participating
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Post count!
ashersky: 14
Eevee: 0
xieron: 4
raerae: 13
mail-mi: 12
TwistedArcher: 22
chairs: 6
shraeye: 3
Ahoppy: 10
EFHW: 12
spiritbears: 10
theorel: 0
nkirbit: 8
Removed pre-game posts. 2 folks at ZERO.
Not much to take away from here. TA is higher than normal, Eevee lower than normal. Everyone else is okay. EFHW hasn't had a lot of content in her posts.
This may be the first game for most of you with Theo, but he is a serial underposter. He just doesn't have high posting numbers. But he usually posts in-depth, long posts. So expect that.
Raerae at scummy 13, as expected.
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Unless we have a good reason to no-lynch, I'd rather not. I assume that the mafia have a NK, and while we certainly will be able to construct doctor roles, or roleblocking roles, or something along those lines, I don't think we should count on a NK not happening.
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Arch, are there potentially bastard roles that are constructable? Like, can we make an invention to miller someone, or cult recruit?
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I really don't agree with the no lynch idea. But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up. It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
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FWIW, Ahoppy, I asked about a no-lynch in my other game (albeit that one's AFAIK basically vanilla Mafia) and I may be our D1 lynch for it. Apparently if you've an odd number of players, it's (usually) a bad idea.
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Chairs: Just as a heads up, you really shouldn't be talking about other games that are still going on. There are players who are in both games, and those who aren't probably reading both anyway. Talking about completed games is fine, though.
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I figured I might, but I'm pleading inexperience. I have to learn somehow, and it seems like a viable option to me. Is it the best? No, lynching scum is the best. But I'm know I can't read people well enough to do that D1, especially if scum are vets.
mods: What are we going to find out upon death? Their role? Flavor? inventory? all of the above? just their alignment?
It's in OP#2, but Alignment, Flavor Name, and Role Name will all be revealed upon lynch and/or nightkill.
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Arch, are there potentially bastard roles that are constructable? Like, can we make an invention to miller someone, or cult recruit?
No bastard roles whatsoever.
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I tried to post something last night, but I wasn't feeling well, and I got a new replies thing and maybe forgot to hit post again? Anyways, it was sometime before ashersky's post.
Anyways, I find theory discussion useful and interesting in general, and am always willing to go in-depth into it. I generally do so early because it's far more interesting than RVS (and usually helps transition out of RVS, and I don't believe it has the downside of people finding one another scummy for their positions on theory).
For this game in particular, as ash pointed out there are 3 things that can be claimed. Roles, inventory-related things, and results. There's of course also flavor names which are perhaps attached to inventory-related items. But that's the claiming side of things. I think there may be limited usefulness in claiming inventory-related things, but probably not right now. BUT claiming is not the limit of theory talk, it's just a beginning.
There's also set-up speculation. Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6). I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it. With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition). This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.
Then there's the other part of theory. Where we make plans and such to optimize the usefulness of PRs. Now, in this game we know nothing about PRs. BUT we all have these items. There must be some way to share items, and it seems likely to me that we all have the same means of sharing them (though there may be additional ways in various PRs). I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions). It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have. Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.
Of course, there are a few difficulties here. In particular, how directed is our item sharing? What do people need? How do we NOT lose items that are powerful. But I think at least some of these things merit discussion.
Finally, soft deadline. Let's make one and try to get day1 done by then.
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*above should say sometime before ashersky's big post on claiming. He had posted once at that time. I'm not sure why that's relevant actually, but I was going to bring up some theory stuff, and ashersky did so...though he brought up slightly different stuff from me.
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Avoiding a mass claim is the only way we won the last role madness game. Is that right in every case ever? Probably not. But every time I've seen a whole bunch of people claiming, it's screwed over town. Have I played every game ever like some people here? Nope, sure haven't. Does that negate my experience? Nope, sure doesn't.
TA, who do you think is scummiest at this point?
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I think that extreme positions are detrimental to town. There are times for claiming, and times for not claiming. I believe (as does everyone near as I can tell) that now is not a time for a mass-claim. So, I'm not really sure why you bring it up every time? Perhaps you mean something different by mass-claim than me.
I'm wondering if there might be good ways to share items which helps to create more power roles for town. And that means that we should spread around items. But spreading them around by say "sending an item to the next person in the sign-up list" (if such a thing is possible), would NOT presumably be a good way to do that. (gives scum excess info)
So, one possibility would be for everyone to suggest items they think might be useful based on the items in their inventory (whether received or granted by set-up). I happen to think that would be a good way of helping us generate more power roles without giving scum excess information. It doesn't strike me as a mass-claim, especially since you would have to determine what someone has based on what they're asking for. Although it depends on how good players are at suggesting useful items for their current items. And of course, it depends on how directed everyone's collaboration methods are. Maybe this is a bad idea...and hey that's fine. I'm not married to it, I came up with it while writing the previous post. But are there any better ideas? Or is everyone sold on blind collaboration and hoping?
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So far, I like the suggestion idea the best. I'm sure scum could use it to take advantage of us, but I think tow. Will probably benefit more (assuming more town than scum, more town will get items, more town with power roles). The only issue is how would we know what to ask for? We don't know what kinds of other items are out there, and I'm not sure how it will generate any discussion. Say I ask for an item, I can't say what I need to use it for or what items I think it will combine with. And any other person isn't going to say that they can give me that, so I'm not really sure how it helps us actually catch scum. Give us more PR's, possibly. Give us more info on scum? Not really. So while I think its the best D1 idea we have, I'm not sure how much it will actually help move D1 along.
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I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions). It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have. Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.
This.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
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So far, I like the suggestion idea the best. I'm sure scum could use it to take advantage of us, but I think tow. Will probably benefit more (assuming more town than scum, more town will get items, more town with power roles). The only issue is how would we know what to ask for? We don't know what kinds of other items are out there, and I'm not sure how it will generate any discussion. Say I ask for an item, I can't say what I need to use it for or what items I think it will combine with. And any other person isn't going to say that they can give me that, so I'm not really sure how it helps us actually catch scum. Give us more PR's, possibly. Give us more info on scum? Not really. So while I think its the best D1 idea we have, I'm not sure how much it will actually help move D1 along.
This is true. This is not scumhunting, it's theory-discussion. Like i said, I (personally) find it more useful/interesting than RVS...but ultimately, we have to move OUT of theory-discussion and into scum-hunting.
Let's see we've had a bit of a no-lynch discussion. We should also discuss random lynch, or is that discussion not in vogue anymore (I don't remember reading it in any recent games)?
Also, as has been suggested: Soft Deadline? July 4th is going to get in the way. July 3rd is actually maybe far enough out? That gives us a week and a day. That seems like plenty, and puts July 4th overnight, which would be nice. So, I officially suggest July 3rd as our soft deadline.
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Hi guys, I'm playing too!
I oppose any sort of claiming for now. I don't think it's necessarily a doomed idea, but you/we should have a strong reason for doing so. A lot of the speculation around it may also cause scum to infer stuff, so that's a bit bad.
I have a meta-based townread on ashersky, he seems quite aggressive and inyourface - which is how I think he intentionally plays town to "show" everyone he is town.
Raerae I don't know about, I'm leaning town too just because she seems fine with being controversial. I'm quite null on everyone else, nothing too memorable has really happened yet. I'm very pleased to see theorel back for a game!
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July 3rd sounds like a fine soft deadline to me.
I firmly oppose random lynching, not only do I think it's not optimal, it's also very not fun. I'd rather play the game!
Nolynching might be viable given the RMM nature of the setup, but it could also be very very bad, so ultimately I just want business as usual. Lets make something happen, see how people react and try to find scum!
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Random lynch is even worse than nolynch imo
July 3 is ok with me
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What would make no lynch very very bad?
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What would make no lynch very very bad?
I don't know, parity stuff? We'd end up nolynching again at some point and would just have given scum extra nights to kill for nothing?
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Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky. So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later.
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re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it. I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.
July 3rd is fine.
No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere. But does that ever happen?
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Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky. So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later.
Would you have time to do night actions before you go?
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Also re: no lynch, it does seem like sometimes we get to deadline and people vote to ensure there is a lynch when they aren't actually fully convinced. That seems like a good time to ask oneself if no lynch might actually be ok.
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Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
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Shraeye and I will be v/la with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8 unless we are very very lucky. So, moral of that story is that if we don't lynch on 7/3 we won't be able to participate until about a week later.
Would you have time to do night actions before you go?
I assume we'd arrange that with Arch as needed. I suppose I'll have access from my phone and the two of us can make that work to get that stuff done as needed.
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Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything. This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
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re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it. I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.
July 3rd is fine.
No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere. But does that ever happen?
I'm intrigued by this concept, given that you've tempered it with "only non-obviously-good items here".
Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
I think the concept here is that few people claim what they have to give, just perhaps stating one of the things in their inventory (not necessarily their starting item, since we've all had a wonderful trade round already :D) that they don't (yet) see a use for, and then see what people give that person and try to make cool stuff out of it.
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Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything. This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
We could have several people do this so there is no single target. Or just one person and hope we have a doctor to protect them.
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Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
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I have always considered it this way:
A town-directed kill has some possibility of hitting scum. A scum-directed kill has 0 possibility of hitting scum. We want to maximize the number of town-directed kills in order to maximize the chance that we hit scum. This means (IMO, which not everyone shares) that town should (generally) take every kill they can. Determining when town should NOT take a kill that it has the opportunity to take is really where parity comes in.
In role madness, there are undoubtedly ways for town to disrupt parity. Because town can disrupt parity, all parity arguments are essentially meaningless, and we should take every kill we can get, because that maximizes our win potential. (again this is my OPINION. There are potentially some unquantifiable gains from not lynching/not killing. Galzria/Robz love the argument of "keeping town voices alive". I believe that the quantifiable gains of extra town-directed deaths are greater than the unquantifiable gains of "town voices"...but since the latter is unquantifiable, it really may be bigger. I acknowledge this, I just don't believe it.)
(For those unaware, here's the parity stuff. Simplest case:
-4 players, 1 scum (i.e. 3 town). If town is lynched then there are 2 town v. 1 scum. Scum kills one of the town players, and scum wins. Each town player has a 1 in 3 chance to find the scum.
-IF one of the town players is eliminated first then there are 2 town v. 1 scum. Each town has a 50/50 chance of getting the scum. if town is lynched, scum wins. Thus, it benefits town to no-lynch and force scum to kill one of them off.
BUT this argument assumes that the town players can't stop the kill, or kill at night. If one of those 2 unkilled town players is a doctor or vigilante, then the 3v1 situation has potential to be better for town. A vigilante can shoot after the kill, this gives a 50/50 chance in ADDITION to the ~1/4 chance of the lynch. If one is a jailkeeper, he can save the night kill and get the advantages of both days (if he himself isn't killed). If one is a doctor/roleblocker same thing except guaranteed to find scum if they survive and choose correctly.
So, that's why I said that parity doesn't apply.)
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Thanks for all the no lynch info. I would agree that now probably isn't the time. And thanks form coming in eevee. Unvote. Now, with claiming what we have to give: then the other person would have to say they wanted it. I feel like this could be harder for scum to lie, but then they would also know who is likely to have shiny new PR's and then they'd just get NK'd...
That's why I suggested people say what they have and if you think you have something useful to give, you do, without saying anything. This only works if the items mentioned are unobviously connected to specific power roles.
That makes a lot more sense... sorry I read wrong
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I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:
Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.
Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).
Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).
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Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
Not sure I understand the question.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
Not sure I understand the question.
You suggested that if I request a tube, and scum has a tube, that scum won't give it to me. He's asking whether you think scum would give me the tube if I don't say "I want a tube".
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
Well do you think scum was going to give town that tube either way?
Not sure I understand the question.
Knowing a townie wants a tube, or not wanting a tube, what reason would scum have for giving town any items? I would think schools would want to try to cherry pick as many items as they could from town and give none of them back. Scum doesn't want us getting powers, just as much as we don't want them to get them. The difference being, they know who is/isn't scum. So they can keep items from us.
Isn't that what I said? Tube or no tube, scum isn't giving up items.
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Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it. That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose... all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
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Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it. That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose... all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
I brought up both those issues actually. Scum won't give something up or we give scum something they want. Read the quote again maybe? Maybe it's because I wrote it, but I don't see why there is confusion with that quote.
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Raerae, I have no strong scum or town reads at this point, unfortunately. I'm suspicious that Ashersky STILL hasn't said why he finds you scummy, but I'm thrown off by him right now, and I'm not sure whether it's more likely a scum or town move from him. I'm also still wanting to hear from Shraeye on why he non-RVS voted for me. Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
July 3rd deadline is fine with me.
I agree with Eevee that we shouldn't random-lynch. It's less fun, as he says, and won't we just be left in the same stage D2, unless someone lucked into a successful investigation?
As for no-lynch...I think it makes a lot of sense in this game actually. One reason why is that it keeps all of the items in the game for longer. Now, we have two chances for every item to get into town hands, rather than only one chance. Whether or not this is actually worth it, I'm not sure, but it's definitely a point to consider.
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Ah. The bulk of the quote was the first part, which I didn't see as a problem. The very past line covers the other stuff. I see that now, no confusion. Still, I think it is something we need to address if we're planning any item discussion.
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The more town who are alive, the higher chance town will end up with items. That's intriguing and a decent reason to no-lynch if we do not have a great candidate
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Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it. That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose... all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.
Two problems I see with it, though:
1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.
I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.
2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
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I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop. If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.
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I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop. If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.
I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least
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I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
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One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --
He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.
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One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --
He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.
Hmm...hadn't really considered that. I was actually talking about something different though. I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out. It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each. The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.
As for what each single player does with their items, that brings up a question of how many times it benefits a player to make a given item. It has been stated that the results are not always 1-shot at least. Hmm, that merits a mod-question I think:
Can a player use multiple item-generated roles at one time? (including generating the same role more than once and using it multiple times in one night)? (Also can he use an item-generated role and his given role at the same time)?
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A player can use as many of his 'invented' roles as he wants per night in addition to any of his normal power roles.
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Oh, I misread your point then. Yes, that's true. We definitely shouldn't give Ashersky 9 items!
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Vote Count 1.3
xeiron (1) raerae
ashersky (1) spiritbears
raerae (2) ashersky, xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
Eevee (1) mail-mi
Not Voting: (6) Eevee,nTwistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it. That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose... all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.
Two problems I see with it, though:
1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.
I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.
2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not. Don't send to people you find scummy. Do send to your townreads. This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender. Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
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Your argument against saying what objects we would like was:
If someone says they want a tube, scum can then hold onto that tube and never give it away because now they know town wants it. That's how I read the post I quoted, correct me if I'm wrong. So I'm just saying it doesn't matter if we say what we want, scum will hold the tube either way. Now, the more concerning issue is that scum will say they want something, and you'll give it to them not knowing they are scum. Or even worse, request the same item as a townie and then you have to choose... all I was pointing out is the issue you brought up is a non-issue.
I agree that both of these are issues -- however, they were issues beforehand, and I don't think this method really makes it any worse.
Two problems I see with it, though:
1) We just don't know what items we can choose from! It will be so hard to nail down combinations, given that we don't know what's in the game. Yes, we can guess...but ultimately, I just don't know how helpful it would be, and it may take away from time better spent scumhunting. If I spent my entire time asking for an object that doesn't exist, I've wasted my time to no avail, and no one will be even able to tell me that I've wasted my time. This is mostly a D1 problem, however. If we get to the point where people have confirmed combinations, and are 1 items short, they should absolutely ask for an item.
I think this method has merit, but I'd rather see it applied to confirmed items, rather than to speculated items.
2) If it's obvious to the player guessing, it may be obvious to the scum, as well. Obviously, they have one less piece of information, but ultimately, they're working at a similar puzzle that a town member was working out, and that a town member was (supposedly) able to solve. If I ask for a candlestick maker, scum might know I have a butcher and a baker, it's pretty obvious. We should just make sure to tread cautiously, here.
These problems are less relevant if we have people state what they have and others decide to send or not. Don't send to people you find scummy. Do send to your townreads. This way you don't need to guess - the creative thinking is done by the sender. Scum willingness to send isn't relevant.
Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
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I think that would probably actually be better. Inventory claiming would reveal a lot to scum. Especially if no combining was successful last night.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming. Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have. The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist. That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items. Don't be that jerk.
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Here are the reasons that made me vote Twisted before:
Posts #92/#93
given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways
And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Two things here jumped out at me, and those are the two things I left in the quote. First, Twisted says that we should be able to skip RVS because we've had a night. But unless people come out and immediately claim some night-result, we really don't get to skip the standard start-up. Even if somebody found scum N0, they have to wait for the thread to fill up with posts and such, so they can build a case on their target. Otherwise, it will be immediately obvious that the person is a PR, and it would be akin to role claiming. And that's something you said you were against. (Not just claiming combinations, but in post #95, you say you completely agree with raerae's idea of not claiming anything).
The second thing that jumped out at me was that you stated a very staunch opinion on claiming combinations, and then IMMEDIATELY toned it down in post #93. This put you on my suspicion radar, and I kept a closer watch on your next few posts.
More important point:
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
This was in response to mail-mi and raerae's joke about claiming that ham is good. This is fun and silly, and a perfectly good way to start a game, but I don't like spending tons of time just joking around and cluttering up the thread. Twisted's response to this quick exchange really stands out because, REMEMBER, he said that he hates silly RVS. That makes this post nothing more than a distraction, and it clutters up our thread. People can recall in the MeanGirls Mod QT, that I was consistently pointing out that long cluttered threads really only help scum, because nobody ever wants to do a reread.
Last item:
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
I don't get this, Twisted says that he understands raerae's position on theory talk (which is post #98 by her), but disagrees with how useful it is. "The uselessness of theory talk" IS raerae's position. You can't simultaneously agree with her but disagree with her main point. This post is just pure appeasement.
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Yes, RVS is silly silly silly. I say that every game. I'd much rather talk theory or do anything than spent 24-48 hours doing nothing. And I'm still 100% against claiming combinations, unless someone has a very, very, very good reason to do so.
Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.
I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
Asking for items makes it more likely the scum will figure out what power you are trying to get. Also, there is a whole universe of items in the world. What are the chances of any of the ones we think of being in the game?
I don't think we should fully inventory claim. That would be useful if we could do it anonymously, but I assume some of the items will have obvious uses and should not be identified with any one player.
But I bet there are items without obvious uses that a creative approach could match up with other existing items. Person X has some paper cups they can share. They could send them out randomly or send them to Person Y who says they have string. Presto chango, a communication device! THOSE WERE EXAMPLES AND DO NOT REFLECT KNOWLEDGE OF ACTUAL ITEMS IN THE GAME. The more people we have mentioning innocuous items, the less scum can use the info to choose a target - this is part of what I meant when I said we could use WIFOM. It depends how many people have seemingly innocuous items to mention.
I also don't see a benefit of waiting. Each time a townie dies we lose access to the items they share.
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Other random things:
Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
Yes, Eevee had only posted 3 times in the first 24 hours of the game. THAT's definitely a reasonable reason to find him suspicious. Sometime, you gotta realize that people get busy. That's just life.
There's also set-up speculation. Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6). I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it. With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition). This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.
Theorel, what makes you so certain that this isn't multi-ball?
I have a meta-based townread on ashersky, he seems quite aggressive and inyourface - which is how I think he intentionally plays town to "show" everyone he is town.
I agree with this; also, I like the way ash has stirred up conversation around his raerae vote (the reason I copied his style there).
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It says no multiball in the OP
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Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.
I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS. I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).
Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside. Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
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Another point - we are trying to make pro-town devices. If a scum gets a cop power, it doesn't really help them. We don't have NK's, what would they do with a doctor? It's worth trying b/c the chances are greater that a townie will get the powers. If I think my V-shaped twig shared with someone with rubber band would make a slingshot, I won't send it. My plan helps us avoid dangerous combinations to some degree. To abuse this, scum would have to think of innocuous items that would get them other items that they have other plans for.
The possibility of stealing: This is true. If scum can steal and they have the twig and hear about a rubber band, they might try to steal it. But if we are making say 4 powers and they make 1, it is probably still worth it for town to proceed.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming. Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have. The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist. That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items. Don't be that jerk.
I think this is NOT a good option, because it gives information on what you are trying to make. Saying what you WANT gives a lot more information than saying what you HAVE, so long as you are careful about what you say you have. I find encouraging this option somewhat scummy, actually.
Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.
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Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.
I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS. I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).
Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside. Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
Okay, I completely disagree with this. I dislike RVS, but going along with it and making a joke once, one that didn't even vote for a player, happens. What exactly are you accusing me of doing with my RVS post? Looking at the thread, seeing an opportunity, saying "Yes! I can add one more post in! Bwahahaha, they're not going to be able to re-read the thread now!" I just don't get how making a RVS post about ham being a terrible lunchmeat gives you a scum read, or a town read, or any read whatsoever.
You can call it appeasement, I disagree, but whatever. It's not like I can sit here and convince you what was going through my head. I just think you've got nothing here, and it's more likely that you always will just read me scummy.
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Also, while my first impression of TA was that he might be scum, I think your case against him is really weak.
Why did you first think he was scum?
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EFHW - As for pro-town powers -- I think everything that has no scum utility will be changed to a pro-scum item, if necessary. Not sure if Doc would be one of the ones switched, though.
Setup Specific Information
Regardless of the number of objects in the combination, the different combinations make will make thematic sense and shouldn’t be too difficult to guess. I will say that the combinations themselves are also all set in stone and will be revealed at game’s end. The most a combination will vary will be whether it's scum or town so that each side can make use of the object, but it will still make thematic sense and only a few objects are split depending on alignment. Guesses you don't use will be rolled over to the following night.
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EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"
Is this correct on what you're advocating?
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@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
I certainly wouldn't vote based on this. But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful. He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s. "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie. He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance. BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.
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So, then the question is, do we have innocuous items we can claim? Or would we be better of asking for vague items?
I mean the point is that you could ask for like a "container" or a "power source" or a "connecting thing".
None of those would give anything away, and some people might need something similar. Or we could claim things like "ball of string", "glass jar", or "pen". Which have no obvious uses, but someone might say "aha, that needs this item I have".
Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree? I dunno, maybe neither works.
People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise. I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.
Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have. And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.
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EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"
Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO! I'm saying the opposite. If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot. But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it. Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.
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Not everyone needs to say either one, maybe we could use both to some degree? I dunno, maybe neither works.
People could even just give a vague idea of what they have, without being precise. I think we could probably share sufficiently obfuscated information to improve our chances of gaining PRs either way.
Given my items, I would feel like asking for things gives less away than saying what I have. And maybe ultimately, that's where the difference comes in...I feel like i could ask for some vague categories of useful stuff, while you have innocuous items that would fit those categories, with no clear uses.
This makes sense and I would be open to it.
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EFHW, I kind of get what you're saying, but I think I'm unclear on what exactly it is you're proposing. You're not proposing full-fledged inventory claiming, correct? To use your example, you're saying that if someone has a y-shaped stick, and they think, "Hey, I might want a rubber band to make a slingshot!" then they should post "If someone has a Rubber band, could they please send it to me tonight?"
Is this correct on what you're advocating?
NO! I'm saying the opposite. If I had a V-shaped twig, I wouldn't mention it - it's obvious it could be made into a slingshot. But if I had "a piece of elastic", I might mention it. Then if someone wants to anonymously send me the twig, they can, though really they shouldn't unless we are both scum.
Ah, okay.
I disagree that the person shouldn't send you the item though if they're town. Odds are, you're town too, and unless they have a strong scum read, I'd advocate sending it. Getting combinations will probably be necessary to win -- I think it's worth the risk of giving an item to scum for the much better chance of giving an item to town.
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@raerae: A different part of the same quote Shraeye used.
Hi everyone!
Hi! I love how friendly we're being given someone has just been shot...
Shows knowledge and forethought of a "shooting"
vote ahop
Shows that someone hasn't read the flavor ;)
More seriously, though, given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways.
Obviously, it doesn't lead us any closer to actually finding out who the scum are, but I think theory discussion would be useful this game, provided that we're very, very careful about not giving anything away without thinking it through first.
One of the warnings in the OP discussed that claiming could potentially be terrible for town, and give scum large advantages. I think anyone who wants to come into D1 claiming anything should be very wary about it, and make sure it's what they want to do. And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
I certainly wouldn't vote based on this. But to me it read like someone trying to appear townie while trying to get people to talk and maybe not be so careful. He makes sure to mention how much he wants to catch scum and there are too many "very"s. "100%" also seems like someone trying to be townie. He doesn't explain his reasoning for either having a theory discussion or not having a combination discussion, so it seems like a town performance. BUT this is one post and it is easy to read into things, so alone it doesn't mean much.
I think the warning in the OP is more than enough to be 100% against claiming combinations. And I don't want people to be very careful - I want people to be very, very careful.
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Yeah, I'm not talking about a mass-claim using either method. I'm just wondering what sort of system we could use to move things around that gives scum the least benefit and town the most benefit. I'm not sure what the best solution is, or if there even is one.
Is that what you're looking for as well theorel, or am I just misinterpreting all over the place?
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I don't exactly understand Theorel's idea, and I have no idea idea what I'd claim if we went through with it. I understand having someone walk me through what we'd do goes against the point of it, but I don't think it would be very useful to me personally, since I can't really wrap my head around it.
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I like the idea of using broad descriptions. Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous. But how do we want to go about doing this? are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim? I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
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I like the idea of using broad descriptions. Giving away the specific item could be very very dangerous. But how do we want to go about doing this? are we going to just kind of mention it if we feel like it, or should we actually do a mass(ish) claim? I don't think we should mass claim, but I do think we should say what we have if we think it will be useful (quite vague and broadly).
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
Why don't you go ahead and start us off then? If you don't agree with any of the positions taken by Ash, shraeye, or me.
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Wouldn't it be very easy for scum to manipulate a claiming system where it's not set in stone what we're doing, and instead are freely putting information forward?
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I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae? And why is he so sure?? To m it looks like busing....
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I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae? And why is he so sure?? To m it looks like busing....
For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum. Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
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I have a feeling scum are just smiling as we spend 6 pages discussing whether or not to claim items....
Get backbtobscum hunting....why does ash target Rae? And why is he so sure?? To m it looks like busing....
For it to be busing you have to think we're both scum. Why don't you go ahead and tell the class why that is.
Sorry wrong term. It looks like scum trying to push a bad wagon...
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Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
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Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
TA & raerae fought?
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Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
I'm here now. The time difference is severe. I'm 16 hours ahead of forum time, so it's already tomorrow here. I've skimmed up to now, so now I'll go back and respond to specific posts that need it.
Also, big raerae reveal to come.
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I really don't agree with the no lynch idea. But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up. It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
Some talk of no lynch since I left -- none of it very scummy, although no lynch favors scum early in the game.
I actually believe that no lynch is absolutely the wrong move on THIS PARTICULAR D1, given we had a night start. I think one of the few compelling arguments for a D1 no lynch is that 1) this is RMM and 2) we all can do stuff at night that is cool and maybe will throw off scum. Except we all already had that opportunity. So skipping D1 and essentially going with a 2-night start sounds bad to me.
On raerae, as mentioned, I'll get to that.
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Chairs: Just as a heads up, you really shouldn't be talking about other games that are still going on. There are players who are in both games, and those who aren't probably reading both anyway. Talking about completed games is fine, though.
+1
This is a key point for new folks to remember.
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Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression. I didn't go back and look into depth about it. Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice
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I tried to post something last night, but I wasn't feeling well, and I got a new replies thing and maybe forgot to hit post again? Anyways, it was sometime before ashersky's post.
Anyways, I find theory discussion useful and interesting in general, and am always willing to go in-depth into it. I generally do so early because it's far more interesting than RVS (and usually helps transition out of RVS, and I don't believe it has the downside of people finding one another scummy for their positions on theory).
For this game in particular, as ash pointed out there are 3 things that can be claimed. Roles, inventory-related things, and results. There's of course also flavor names which are perhaps attached to inventory-related items. But that's the claiming side of things. I think there may be limited usefulness in claiming inventory-related things, but probably not right now. BUT claiming is not the limit of theory talk, it's just a beginning.
There's also set-up speculation. Which I think bit us in DS9 mafia, because we assumed there were 4 scum when there were 6 (it's possible extra speculation in the beginning would have saved us, but I don't know that we ever would have expected 6). I'll just note we should be careful about the set-up, and any assumptions we may come to regarding it. With 13 players, that's the size of CK9++ which means that 2-3 scum is a reasonable team-size with up to 1 Serial Killer (in addition). This is NOT multi-ball so I think something in that vicinity is reasonable here as well, and hence it's what I'll be expecting.
Then there's the other part of theory. Where we make plans and such to optimize the usefulness of PRs. Now, in this game we know nothing about PRs. BUT we all have these items. There must be some way to share items, and it seems likely to me that we all have the same means of sharing them (though there may be additional ways in various PRs). I think it may merit discussion to talk about how directing these sharings would be useful (or if not directing them would be better in people's opinions). It seems to me like we want to spread the items around a decent amount, in order to maximize the number of power roles we have. Ideally getting good combinations of items together, so that if I have an item that combines with a tube, I get a tube.
Of course, there are a few difficulties here. In particular, how directed is our item sharing? What do people need? How do we NOT lose items that are powerful. But I think at least some of these things merit discussion.
Finally, soft deadline. Let's make one and try to get day1 done by then.
Agree on a soft deadline -- I prefer July 2.
This is normal theorel, for those that don't know. This is absolutely, 100% what I expected from Theo's first in-game post. It provides an exactly null read, too.
Were you scum in that game where Voltgloss and I had a HUGE fight and you road that to victory? Or was that eHal? I always get you two confused.
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The problem here is that we're giving out objects willy-nilly with no regard to alignment. You say, 'I would like a tube, please,' and scum says, 'Well, I have this tube just chillin' here but I know town wants it so I think I'll just hang on to that and pretend it doesn't exist.' Or we end up giving scum stuff to make stuff to kill us.
On catching up, this is the most sensible response I've seen.
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I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:
Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.
Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).
Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).
What is "paper-pushing"?
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Arch - Is item guessing affected by roleblocks, being put in jail, drinking icky potions, commuting, etc?
I can't answer questions regarding powers that may or may not be in the game.
I think the question was actually whether item-based powers are affected by role powers, and vice versa. You may be able to answer that one. I'll phrase it a different way:
Arch: Do role powers and item powers interact the same way with powers in both categories?
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I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop. If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.
These are bad posts. Not scummy, necessarily, but bad. Don't say things like that. It gives away information about yourself, and tempts others to also give away information.
You are helping scum.
(Or, you are scum playing the wifom game. But I doubt it.)
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I wonder if we have a doc and/or cop. If we could reasonably expect a doc and could confirm a cop somehow, we'd at least have a good investigation setup rolling, though the concern would still exist that somebody could kill the doc or have some sort of "even through doctor" power, I guess.
I'm sure we would have item combinations to make these powers at the very least
See? It tempts others into giving away information.
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One point on Theorel's summary I wanted to touch on --
He says that we should probably spread the items around a fair amount. I'm not sure I agree with this. Yes, I understand that the more people who have access to different items, but it may be better to concentrate your items to some degree -- obviously not giving the same person the same item every night. I'm going to keep in mind, though, that if I give my item to person X N0, chances are, on subsequent nights, there's a better chance they've figured out a correct combination for that item. So that's an incentive for me to give person X the item on a later night, rather than a random person who hasn't seen the item before. I think we should spread out items out to only 2-3 people we have town reads on, and hopefully they will be able to make the same useful items multiple times.
Hmm...hadn't really considered that. I was actually talking about something different though. I meant that as a town we want to be spreading items out. It doesn't do us as much good if ashersky gets 9 items as if 6 people get 1-2 items each. The idea being that each player has a limited capacity to form combinations so it helps to spread out the items that can form combinations.
If I get 9 items, it would be hilarious, but I think not as good as 3 people having 3 items. I find it almost impossible to think there is a 9-item combo out there, and if there is, it has to be a "auto-win if you use this" invention.
I think the bigger question, related to all talk around this quote, is this:
How do people decide who to send stuff to? On N0, only scum knew anything about anyone else. Town didn't. So if you would have sent something out on N0, you would have sent it out with ZERO info about the person you gifted. So you either had to be very sure you weren't hurting town with your random send.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
I don't think we should inventory claim.
But you do think we should request items if we know what we're looking for?
This sounds like the best option I've heard yet, if we want to go with any sort of claiming. Though I'm not sure how to decide what item 'matches' the things one might already have. The worst that could happen here is people could ask for an object that doesn't exist. That won't clutter up the thread, unless some jerk asks for like 20 different items. Don't be that jerk.
It's an okay option. I still think not knowing what else is in the game makes this futile, though.
How about offers? Someone could say "I have a bazooka, who wants one?" and then we lynch the scum who asks for it.
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Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
TA & raerae fought?
that was my impression. I didn't go back and look into depth about it. Perhaps "discussion" was a better word choice
I think you mean TA and shraeye.
It's happening again! shraerae in da house!
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I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce. At least it is sauce, something we have very little of. I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.
TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.
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And now where is everyone else???
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
-
Well, to start, I think we need to get the lurkers to come out:
chairs
mail-mi
haven't heard much from you in a while
and we could also probably hear some more from eevee.
Also, Why haven't we heard anything back from ashersky in a while? I know there is a time difference, but what do you think about things since your last post? What do you think of the no-lynch talks? What do you think about TA and raerae's fight?
Why didn't I make the list of lurkers! I've been lurking as much as anyone else has!
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true, but when you have posted, there has been substance. All I know about mail-mi is he likes ham and pastrami...
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Oh, right, that.
I've got nothing on raerae. unvote
Just wanted to gauge reactions. Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Oh, right, that.
I've got nothing on raerae. unvote
Just wanted to gauge reactions. Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
I see... sorry for calling it out early then.
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Oh, right, that.
I've got nothing on raerae. unvote
Just wanted to gauge reactions. Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
I see... sorry for calling it out early then.
No biggie. Mostly got overshadowed by lots of theory talk overnight. It wasn't guaranteed to result in anything tangible, but I figured it would get folks talking.
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Oh, right, that.
I've got nothing on raerae. unvote
Just wanted to gauge reactions. Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
What do you think about xeiron sheeping that awesome case?
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Well, I've been letting you get your thoughts down and for the promised information on raerae... which, if you pardon me, I will be a little leary of because of mean girls...
Oh, right, that.
I've got nothing on raerae. unvote
Just wanted to gauge reactions. Stuff for us to analyze now, including the non-reactions of folks and the over-reaction of folks.
What do you think about xeiron sheeping that awesome case?
Super scummy. But remember X in Mean Girls?
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I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy. I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things. Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it. Xeiron did.
And raerae? Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
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Tru dat.
Still waiting on all those folks who advocated scumhunting yet seem to be doing very little of it themselves...
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Glad I could help you out, buddy :)
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
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I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy. I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things. Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it. Xeiron did.
And raerae? Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
Forgot me. Sorry, I'm sensitive like that.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
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I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy. I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things. Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it. Xeiron did.
And raerae? Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
Forgot me. Sorry, I'm sensitive like that.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Right, sorry. For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
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I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce. At least it is sauce, something we have very little of. I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.
TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.
Why is this an issue?
I figured you were baiting people but didn't want to see it to see the reactions. I agree that xeiron comes off scummy for jumping on it.
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How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?
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I like shraeye's case on TA, even though it's weak sauce. At least it is sauce, something we have very little of. I didn't find TA that scummy from what shraeye pointed out, but it is early in the game, and we have to catch the little things.
TA's response reminds me of Samurai TA, which is an issue.
Why is this an issue?
I figured you were baiting people but didn't want to see it to see the reactions. I agree that xeiron comes off scummy for jumping on it.
Because I'm dumb. I was thinking of WinterSpartan's play in Samurais. So your play here reminds me of his play there, which doesn't make sense as a meta argument, but I guess kind of works for a you are playing scummy argument?
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How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?
EFHW, to me, was exactly the same player in both games, and in both games she was scum. She's different as town.
Now, in this game, she seems like the EFHW of the scum games, not the town games.
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How in the world does efhw pointing out your tactic agree with her scum meta? What meta are you going off of?
EFHW, to me, was exactly the same player in both games, and in both games she was scum. She's different as town.
Now, in this game, she seems like the EFHW of the scum games, not the town games.
Or, to put it another way, appeasement is a scum thing. Shraeye said that.
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I think scum would have been more subtle in their reactions to my ploy. I don't think scum was more likely to support or oppose.
Now, if raerae actually is scum, which is of course possible, that may change things. Scum was probably slightly less likely to respond to my "case" if they were her partners.
I think sb's "ash is scummy tunneling dude" reaction is par for the sb course. I don't think it speaks to his alignment.
TA's continual waiting for explanation was also normal TA.
Eevee and shraeye were spot on, and on to me, I think.
mail-mi had a scummy reaction to it. Xeiron did.
And raerae? Well, I knew I could get a rise out of you pretty easily, recalling D1 of DS9. :)
How was my reaction scummy?
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky
WIFIM for town might be good.
Here's your scummy reaction. It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit. You originally had little to no reaction to it. Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
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I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:
Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.
Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).
Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).
What is "paper-pushing"?
This subtle reference that was "missed"?
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky
WIFIM for town might be good.
Here's your scummy reaction. It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit. You originally had little to no reaction to it. Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well okay. I still don't get how it's that scummy, but if that's how you view it, fine.
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky
WIFIM for town might be good.
Here's your scummy reaction. It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit. You originally had little to no reaction to it. Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake.
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
See, this just opens up more questions than anything. Did you start with the paper? Receive the paper? We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
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Arch: Do role powers and item powers interact the same way with powers in both categories?
Yes.
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Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake.
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now
Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do? It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?
Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others. I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
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Oh right Unvote doing stuff to cause reactions is kinda townie.
I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Scum hunt anyway! All my reads are usually backwards but I still try!
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Why are we claiming?
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
See, this just opens up more questions than anything. Did you start with the paper? Receive the paper? We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Jeezuz...what's with the claiming!?!
vote chairs
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Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake.
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now
Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do? It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?
Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others. I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
I wouldn't put anything past you....learned that lesson the hard way. There is nothing you wouldnt claim or fakeclaim. Nothing
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Vote Count 1.4
xeiron (1) raerae
raerae (1) xeiron
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
shraeye (1) chairs
chairs (1) spiritbears
Not Voting: ( 8 ) mail-mi, ashersky, Eevee, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, EFHW, theorel, nkirbit.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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I'm neutral on the no-lynch concept in this game, and here's why:
Normally it appears that lynching is (overall) the correct option.
Pros to no-lynch in this game happen to include the paper-pushing option to invent cool stuff that gives us additional roles - and a dead townie means we can't get his piece of a potentially cool item (I'm willing to accept the loss for dead scum).
Pros to lynching in this game, aside from the obvious "killing scum is good" option, are that we don't actually know what the scum wincons are, and it's entirely possible that inventing X, Y, or Z item are among them, so more items still around offers them more opportunity to snag those items (either via power roles [potentially] or via their town face).
What is "paper-pushing"?
This subtle reference that was "missed"?
Fair enough, I missed your post.
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Well what he said is not super scummy. But the timing is...
That said. I'm not ready to let ash totally off the hook. It could be that he just realized his bad noncase on raerae wasn't going anywhere. So better to hop off and claim it was for reactions sake.
But now that hrs actually scum hunting (which proves nothing when it comes to ash), I'm going tounvote for now
Given you just got to experience the full-on scum ash experience (SAE), do you think the "raerae fake-case gambit" is something I'd do? It doesn't really do much for me if I'm scum, and how helpful can making a fake case on raerae be so early in the game?
Regardless, I'm not one to worry about how I seem to others. I wanted to get some convo going, and it worked.
I wouldn't put anything past you....learned that lesson the hard way. There is nothing you wouldnt claim or fakeclaim. Nothing
Thanks, I think. :)
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
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Clarification: Combinations can be used during any of the nights following its creation. They are NOT restricted to JUST the night after they're made.
Told ja.
Also, I'm not currently sure who raerae's partners are. Not enough posts in the game to make any determinations yet.
I don't think Ash knows anything about raerae. I think he's creating a provocation to see what happens.
Also, scum are going to have a really hard time if they try to chase down power roles. Once they pinpoint one person as having used a role like cop or doctor, they can try to NK that person but the role could easily pop up somewhere else instead.
I also think that we should think about using WIFOM to help town at least somewhat coordinate. More on that later as we get a clearer sense of how things work.
Ash's got bad tunnel vision on rarrae. I think him constantly pushing her and not giving any reason whatsoever is anti town. Vote: ashersky
WIFIM for town might be good.
Here's your scummy reaction. It came late in the game, as many pages had passed since I started the gambit. You originally had little to no reaction to it. Plus, voting someone for being "anti-town" is a classic scum tool for voting town members without reason and no pushback.
Well okay. I still don't get how it's that scummy, but if that's how you view it, fine.
To clarify, I don't really think voting at that time was so bad, but I didn't like the reasoning. Something like:
"vote: ash because his tunneling on raerae looks like scum trying to push a mislynch on a vocal towny who is easy to paint as scummy"
would have been a good town reaction. Because I do think pushing raerae mislynches is a scum tactic because raerae's playstyle makes it easy to turn folks against her. That's partly why I chose her for this gambit.
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
See, this just opens up more questions than anything. Did you start with the paper? Receive the paper? We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Certainly it does open up questions, but I simply don't see where else we can go for scumhunting other than to get at least some relevant information out there (granted, it seems most of you are playing at a lot higher level of WIFOM than I am, so perhaps I'm just missing it). I don't know where we draw the line on what questions we do/don't answer here.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
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Ash: all that you said = yu being anti town/scummy.
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Also in the post you just made, ashersky, you mention knowing about raerae's playstyle. I'm having to pick up playstyle clues effectively from nil which affects my decisionmaking, certainly.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
Grrr: ashersky
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
See, this just opens up more questions than anything. Did you start with the paper? Receive the paper? We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Certainly it does open up questions, but I simply don't see where else we can go for scumhunting other than to get at least some relevant information out there (granted, it seems most of you are playing at a lot higher level of WIFOM than I am, so perhaps I'm just missing it). I don't know where we draw the line on what questions we do/don't answer here.
In the end, the info is yours, you do what you want. It's just that most of town had vocalized that they weren't ready for claiming, and wanted a better idea for how we would do it.
Here's a hypothetical:
Scum has an item that somehow interacts with paper. They know they want paper to make it work. Now they can try to subtly buddy you to get you to send them some. Or they know that paper is needed as wadding in a musket for shooting. Or they think they can build paper airplanes to send PMs. I don't know. The problem is, you don't know either. But they might.
Now, the info is out there. What do we do with it? I think that's the more pertinent topic now.
As for saying this helps us scumhunt, I disagree. Talking set-up/theory/items/etc., when they aren't indicative of alignment, doesn't help us scumhunt. Scumhunting (to me) is looking at what people say about other people, how they interact with each other, what sorts of stances they may take on things. Does your premature claim say something about your alignment? I think so, so I guess that adds to the scumhunting. But the rest of the discussion that we necessarily have to have about the paper will not.
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Also in the post you just made, ashersky, you mention knowing about raerae's playstyle. I'm having to pick up playstyle clues effectively from nil which affects my decisionmaking, certainly.
Absolutely a fair point. Being new in these games can be a disadvantage.
But it's also an advantage in that you don't have preconceived notions of us.
Take spiritbears's recent posts about me. And mail-mil's own grrr. It's impossible for them to separate their most recent experience playing a game with me (against me, as it was, given I was mafia that game) from current events. You don't have that issue and can make your own opinions.
Could be you think I'm scummy anyway, and that's fine. But remember, what you may see as a disadvantage can be helpful.
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Ash: all that you said = yu being anti town/scummy.
We might just disagree here, but anti-town =/= scummy.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
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Right, sorry. For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which? Sensitivity? Trust me, it's my everyday meta.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb. mcmc isn't even in this game.
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Right, sorry. For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which? Sensitivity? Trust me, it's my everyday meta.
Nope, the actual response you quoted. Sensitivity is a null tell.
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Right, sorry. For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which? Sensitivity? Trust me, it's my everyday meta.
Nope, the actual response you quoted. Sensitivity is a null tell.
I don't about that meta thing. Half the time I forgot I was scum in Shakespeare, especially in the beginning. Remember I was upset for a moment when Liopoil and X turned out to both be town?
But anyway, have you weighed in on whether and specifically how to try to optimize item sharing? I know you said to spread them around, which I agree about.
What's your impression of TA?
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Right, sorry. For what it's worth, I think that matches your scum meta (MnM and Shakespeare).
Which? Sensitivity? Trust me, it's my everyday meta.
Nope, the actual response you quoted. Sensitivity is a null tell.
I don't about that meta thing. Half the time I forgot I was scum in Shakespeare, especially in the beginning. Remember I was upset for a moment when Liopoil and X turned out to both be town?
But anyway, have you weighed in on whether and specifically how to try to optimize item sharing? I know you said to spread them around, which I agree about.
What's your impression of TA?
I think that optimizing the sharing of items is a fool's errand. Without knowing specific combinations for specific roles, it's just a crapshoot anyway. I prefer that each person choose who to share with based on their own reads.
TA is on the scummy side. He reminds me of Winterspartan in Samurai and Ninjas.
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Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand. UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers.
It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one. Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?
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How much do you want to bet scum get at least one item from their victim's inventories?
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Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand. UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers.
It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one. Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?
Well, if paper is an indication, my guess is a pool of simple items which can be combined into greater items. Like crafting in WoW.
So it is possible that paper is an ingredient in multiple recipes.
Why is Chairs a target? What if he's scum? Why not leave him alive for WIFOM if he's town? What if paper is crappy?
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How much do you want to bet scum get at least one item from their victim's inventories?
Possible, but not mentioned in the OPs.
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Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
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Thanks for your answer, but I disagree re: fool's errand. UNLESS Archetype has made it that each item could interact with many of the others to make several different powers.
It's a problem that Chairs has claimed b/c now he will be a target if he is the only one. Do we leave him to his fate and hope he gets protected?
Why is Chairs a target? What if he's scum? Why not leave him alive for WIFOM if he's town? What if paper is crappy?
It's kind of my fault, but now someone with something that goes great with paper will send it to him and scum will target him to prevent him getting something good.
Now, he could be scum trying to stimulate more claiming. That is true. Maybe he doesn't even have paper. It would be a good tactic, actually.
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Here's Shraeye's case on TA, for easy reference.
Here are the reasons that made me vote Twisted before:
Posts #92/#93
given that we actually had a N0, we should be able to skip RVS -- RVS is silly, anyways
And I'm 100% against claiming ANY combinations at this point.
Two things here jumped out at me, and those are the two things I left in the quote. First, Twisted says that we should be able to skip RVS because we've had a night. But unless people come out and immediately claim some night-result, we really don't get to skip the standard start-up. Even if somebody found scum N0, they have to wait for the thread to fill up with posts and such, so they can build a case on their target. Otherwise, it will be immediately obvious that the person is a PR, and it would be akin to role claiming. And that's something you said you were against. (Not just claiming combinations, but in post #95, you say you completely agree with raerae's idea of not claiming anything).
The second thing that jumped out at me was that you stated a very staunch opinion on claiming combinations, and then IMMEDIATELY toned it down in post #93. This put you on my suspicion radar, and I kept a closer watch on your next few posts.
More important point:
Guys, this is clearly a town-on-town argument. Just because mail-mi's really,really,really, extremely wrong doesn't make him scummy!
This was in response to mail-mi and raerae's joke about claiming that ham is good. This is fun and silly, and a perfectly good way to start a game, but I don't like spending tons of time just joking around and cluttering up the thread. Twisted's response to this quick exchange really stands out because, REMEMBER, he said that he hates silly RVS. That makes this post nothing more than a distraction, and it clutters up our thread. People can recall in the MeanGirls Mod QT, that I was consistently pointing out that long cluttered threads really only help scum, because nobody ever wants to do a reread.
Last item:
Btw, I do understand that position Raerae. I guess we disagree on how potentially useful it can be, but that's a minor enough point.
I don't get this, Twisted says that he understands raerae's position on theory talk (which is post #98 by her), but disagrees with how useful it is. "The uselessness of theory talk" IS raerae's position. You can't simultaneously agree with her but disagree with her main point. This post is just pure appeasement.
Eevee's been quiet for him, so that's a little suspicious. There just hasn't been anything that's really stuck out at me so far, though.
Yes, Eevee had only posted 3 times in the first 24 hours of the game. THAT's definitely a reasonable reason to find him suspicious. Sometime, you gotta realize that people get busy. That's just life.
Yeah, I think RVS is silly and then made an RVS post. So what? If you're building a case on that, I can't really defend it. I do thing it's odd that this is your more important point, though, rather than the first point you made. Building a case out of RVS is just silly, once again. If you're going to build a case on someone for RVS, I have no idea why you're starting with me -- I'm sure there's a half-dozen people who had more RVS posts in this thread than I did.
I understood where Raerae was coming from, and disagreed that it can sometimes be useful. But I saw where her argument was coming from. I disagree on her main point but understand where she's coming from. Call it pure appeasement, if you want, but I think you're building a case out of nothing here.
Yes, it's true that there's probably half-dozen people who have more RVS posts than you, ,but they aren't on the record as hating RVS. I made the points in the order I did, because I was discussing issues in the order they came up in (i.e., #92/93 is before your joke-post, which was before your appeasement-post).
Appeasement is exactly what I call it, and that sort of please-everyone attitude is something scum takes more often than town I find...see ashersky's abrasiveness for the flipside. Scum players are too afraid to be that in your face.
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4). Shraeye could be content to post a weak case as though it is strong b/c it is day one and all we have so far. I'm not sure what I think of this option, but thought I should add it to be fair.
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Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.
I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.
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As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
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Chairs shouldn't have claimed, but I don't know if it makes him a NK target. Obviously it gives scum more information, but what's done is done, I suppose. I actually think it reads towny -- if he's scum, I'm sure his partners would have coached him up somewhat in QT re:claiming, and he'd be more careful to not throw a claim out there while there's opposition to it.
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Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
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As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
It makes sense that he wouldn't think it was a real case. But in Pirates all he did was fire one provocative question at me. He didn't make a case.
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Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?
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TA have you ever been scum?
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Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?
oops fakeclaiming = softclaiming
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TA have you ever been scum?
Blitz XIII, otherwise no
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As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
It makes sense that he wouldn't think it was a real case. But in Pirates all he did was fire one provocative question at me. He didn't make a case.
Are you sure? I thought he was going on about how it was strange that you weren't responding to mine/his questions. I guess I need to go back and re-read.
I immediately thought he was going for reactions, not that he found me extremely scummy, so I got a town read. Does scum!Shraeye have a benefit from doing this? I don't think he expected the case to stick at all, but several people have gotten scum reads on it, so maybe this was exactly what he planned on doing.
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Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.
I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.
You are not alone in hating meta arguments. But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.
Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players. I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II. I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost. As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.
I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention. You think she feels different this game?
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
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As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
I think shraeye was pushing the best case he felt he had at this early juncture in the game. I don't think it was to get a reaction out of anyone.
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Ok, I was just about to ask Xeiron why he sheeped Ashersky,'s vote on Raerae, but looking back it seems that he thought Ash was fakeclaiming a result on Raerae. That's still weird, and I think it's odd that he picked up on the wagon when no else did, so slight scum read when that's combined with the lurking. Get in here, Xeiron!
Why would X thinking Ash was fakeclaiming make him sheep?
oops fakeclaiming = softclaiming
Awfully quick to sheep a softclaim, though. Sure, we had a N0, but it's a bit much to assume I'd catch raerae this quickly. Although I guess I caught mcmc on N1, so that makes sense.
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Chairs shouldn't have claimed, but I don't know if it makes him a NK target. Obviously it gives scum more information, but what's done is done, I suppose. I actually think it reads towny -- if he's scum, I'm sure his partners would have coached him up somewhat in QT re:claiming, and he'd be more careful to not throw a claim out there while there's opposition to it.
I agree, chairs is most likely town.
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You are not alone in hating meta arguments. But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.
Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players. I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II. I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost. As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.
I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention. You think she feels different this game?
I didn't read Masons + Monks so I can't speak to that. I had a scum read on EFHW in Shakespeare based mostly on voting patterns, and on her hesitancy to hammer, and it's too early to say if she's replicated that. One thing that's different is that she's gotten a LOT more involved in theory talk, which I haven't really seen from her before. She was very reserved about it in Shakespeare, so that's different.
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I'm starting to feel like this is a 3 person game. Where is everyone?
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb. mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb. mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...
Your vote did, though. I think that's why she was pointing it out.
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb. mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...
Your vote did, though. I think that's why she was pointing it out.
Your not seriously worried about my vote when no one else here is even willing to consider you might be scum????
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Why are we claiming?
We're not.
At least we shouldnt be.....
All I'm comfortable claiming right now is that I'm a Tracker and I caught mcmc targeting nkirbit.
I have reason believe this is false
vote ash
I think that was a joke, sb. mcmc isn't even in this game.
I know. I guess my facetiousness didn't come through...
Your vote did, though. I think that's why she was pointing it out.
Your not seriously worried about my vote when no one else here is even willing to consider you might be scum????
I am not worried about your vote. I'm cool with it.
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We should not itemclaim any more, because itemclaiming is roleclaiming. That is, roleclaiming of our future roles. The OP says items combination do make sense and should not be easy to guess. Meaning if I say I have a first aid kit, but wish for medicine it is not hard to figure out I am/can become a doctor. We should avoid claiming roles at this point.
I think the best way to maximize powerroles is for everyone to send items they don't nead to their biggest townread.
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Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.
I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.
You are not alone in hating meta arguments. But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.
Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players. I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II. I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost. As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.
I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention. You think she feels different this game?
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
Obviously she feels similar, she is still the same person! Telling the difference between role-based reasons and irl-based reasons for different levels of activity / same or different overall playstyles is important, and hard.
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I want to get scumhunting done, but I know I'm not good at it... right now, I'm waiting on mail-mi and chairs. Although, this seems to be normal mai-mi: scummy and silent...
Well, I've mostly been quiet as I don't really have anything to add to the discussion and everything I've added so far I've been told is bad form.
I'm going to go ahead and item claim, though, since the earlier subtle reference was missed and I think my item's pretty darn innocuous: I have paper.
See, this just opens up more questions than anything. Did you start with the paper? Receive the paper? We can infer that you might be Cai Lun or Gutenberg now.
Why are you asking those additional questions? How do any of them matter?
We can infer that he started with paper, and might be someone associated with paper. But this could be incorrect, maybe he just has paper.
Again, why does it matter? What matters is that he has paper, and if someone has something useful they think will combine with paper, they can send it to him.
You have stated yourself that we shouldn't claim. I really don't understand when someone says "hey no one claim", then someone claims some part of something and suddenly that player goes "oh, really? tell us EVERYTHING then". Why can't we just leave partial claims alone? Especially if we don't think people should be claiming yet. (We don't necessarily need to trust them, just leave them alone).
(PPE: I think that there are probably enough vague item claims that can be made to help town without giving too much away to scum. But maybe there are situations like xeiron describes. On the other hand if you had a first aid kit that needed bandages, you could ask for something to wrap things with. Which is the same thing you would desire if you wanted to put 2 other items together somehow. Or if you needed medicine, you could ask for some sort of liquid. I think people are just thinking too specifically?)
My preference at this point is for people to claim whatever they think will help town the most, and give away the least.
I need some sort of "casing", and some sort of "power source".
I'm pretty sure that gives nothing away in terms of what I can make, since a variety of items can use power, and a variety can use something to hold them.
Also weird thing is I thought the opening posts said something about combinations using no more than 3 items. But looking over it I found nothing. (did it get edited out? or am I just crazy?)
I did find the following however:
... But beware of scum's objects! (end of second paragraph)
Somehow, I don't think we need to worry about whether scum will share objects with us. Sounds like they'll be happy to (given that we should "beware").
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How do you know what you "need," theo? I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?
More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.
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Anyways, scumhunting...involves reads...means I need to figure out what I think of these players. I doubt I think anything right now, but I need to try to keep people straight, and this is still the best way I've found to do that day1. It puts my mind in the game and helps me keep track of what I think of people, making me think of them at all. Hopefully I can start sorting all of you out. This is a long post, so I expect shraeye and raerae to skip it :P
1. ashersky: active, provocative. These are general ashersky properties based on what I've seen. null read. (scumScore...null=25)
2. Eevee: Very little activity. Not exactly normal for Eevee, but I think he's been posting somewhat less lately? Or maybe he posts less in non-normal games. I dunno, I feel like I've noticed a lot of "not much posting" regarding Eevee in my skimming. So I'm going to call this basically null for now, but might revise if someone tells me that my thought there is incorrect. scumScore=26
3. xeiron: he's posted like twice (3 times now)? I've never played with him as far as I remember. Seems reasonably concerned about claiming...but ultimately I've got nothing. scumScore=25 (Oh, his name is typoed in the opening post btw)
4. raerae: Seems like typical raerae (i.e. abrasive, joking). I'm not sure I've seen raerae as scum (in terms of when skimming other games...I know I've never played with scum raerae). So I guess I lean town here. scumScore=20
5. mail-mi: First player I've not really noticed. I know he's posted some stuff, and has received some comments. I think there was a back and forth with ashersky last night regarding how he voted for ashersky? I'll try to pay more attention to him. scumScore=25
6. TwistedArcher: Has posted a lot. Not sure if "appeasing" is a scum-trait when applied to twistedarcher. I know it isn't when applied to me, and I know that I have a tendency to appease (maybe I only try to appease and actually don't? Robz always thinks I'm scum because I ask permission to do things like vote though...). He's gotten a lot of heat, which generally makes me lean town. scumScore=20
7. chairs: He claimed paper, so we know he beats rock, and loses to scissors. He's a green card that helps with splaying (thematically because he helps pass down information from one age to the next). Early uninformed claims are usually town (though they are also usually mislynched). This wasn't quite as early, although it was broadcast early. Still likely to be town. scumScore=20.
8. shraeye: I can't pretend that I can read shraeye. I've only really pegged him as scum once, and he was of course town that time (and IC to boot). He seems to have played a similar gambit to ashersky, except he decided to build an actual weak/day-1 case on TA? (unlike ashersky who did it to provoke). Um...I'm going to play it safe and lean scum here. scumScore=28
9. Ahoppy: Second player I haven't noticed. This time I've got absolutely nothing. I don't know if he's been posting little, or if I don't know him and so don't have a voice to associate with him. Can't remember other comments regarding him. No knowledge of player means slight scum right? (even if it's entirely my own fault) scumScore=27
10. EFHW: One of the three players in conversation last night (with TA and ashersky). I think she's the one taking the opposite viewpoint to me regarding claiming (i.e. that we should claim items we have rather than items we need). ashersky thinks she sounds like when she's scum. Eevee thinks that she sounds like Efhw. I don't know her meta. I've got nothing really. scumScore=25
11. spiritbears: One of these days spiritbears is going to be scum, and we'll all be surprised. I don't know enough about how spiritbears plays mafia, except that everyone always thinks he's town. I can see why...I think he's town too. And I can't even figure out why (I don't remember anything he's actually said, just that he seems like town.) scumScore=20
12. theorel: Yep, I'm here. I'm the most pro-town player around, even if I always lose anyways. At least people don't usually suspect me until around day3. scumScore=0.
13. nkirbit: I was about to say I remembered nothing, then I remembered...he called himself out for underposting, after someone didn't call him out for it (ahoppy maybe? I'll have to check). I think this might actually be a scum trait based on experience (I remember Galzria calling himself out in DS9. I think other scum has done it in the past). Although it seems like a townie thing to do, maybe it's one of those town things that scum does to look townie? Meh, the better townie response would be to post more. Well, I'm not going to build a case around it, but I'll lean scum here for now, scumScore=28.
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How do you know what you "need," theo? I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?
More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.
Or maybe we just have different descriptions? Do your items not have descriptions? (I'm also extrapolating based on what I would guess the items need)
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How do you know what you "need," theo? I was given zero indication of missing parts to complete items?
More info than the rest of us...seems scummy.
Or maybe we just have different descriptions? Do your items not have descriptions? (I'm also extrapolating based on what I would guess the items need)
My item(s) has/have a description. I am unable to extrapolate other types of items needed based on that/them.
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Okay, looked back at Ahoppy. He's been posting a good bit actually, and I was right about it being him calling out lurkers. It looks like he's been trying to engender discussion. So, I'm going to drop his scumScore to 22.
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Ash, I'm not getting your scummy read on EFHW. I think it's easy to say things like "EFHW seems like she did in Masons and Monks", "TA seems like WS did in Samurai", etc. Without bringing up actual quotations, it means nothing to me -- if you're going to convince me EFHW is scum, I'd want more solid reasons, other than "she just seems the same". I understand that a lot of it is feel, but I hate these arguments relating to specific games, and I think it's a more likely argument to come from scum than from town. It's an argument without much solid backing, but one that you can't really get called out on, since it's an interpretation of metas and playstyles, and not an interpretation of solid evidence.
I also think that Ash is playing up his fake claim from Mean Girls a little too much for my liking. That's now several references to it -- I think he trying to get into peoples' heads more than anything else by playing it up. Whether or not that's along the lines of a "Man, there's no way he'd do something like that TWO games in a row", or something else, I don't know, but I don't like that he just brought it up again recently.
You are not alone in hating meta arguments. But there isn't much I can say to assuage you.
Meta arguments are necessarily based on previous experience and what we've come to expect from players. I think I've modded or played every game that EFHW has played except for Pirates II. I've been beaten by scum!EFHW and watched scum!EFHW play a masterful game she only barely lost. As such, I have a fresh vision for what scum!EFHW looks like.
I could quote from the Shakespeare game, but you were in it, and you paid attention. You think she feels different this game?
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
Obviously she feels similar, she is still the same person! Telling the difference between role-based reasons and irl-based reasons for different levels of activity / same or different overall playstyles is important, and hard.
Sure it is hard. But we still need to try.
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Anyways, scumhunting...involves reads...means I need to figure out what I think of these players. I doubt I think anything right now, but I need to try to keep people straight, and this is still the best way I've found to do that day1. It puts my mind in the game and helps me keep track of what I think of people, making me think of them at all. Hopefully I can start sorting all of you out. This is a long post, so I expect shraeye and raerae to skip it :P
1. ashersky: active, provocative. These are general ashersky properties based on what I've seen. null read. (scumScore...null=25)
2. Eevee: Very little activity. Not exactly normal for Eevee, but I think he's been posting somewhat less lately? Or maybe he posts less in non-normal games. I dunno, I feel like I've noticed a lot of "not much posting" regarding Eevee in my skimming. So I'm going to call this basically null for now, but might revise if someone tells me that my thought there is incorrect. scumScore=26
3. xeiron: he's posted like twice (3 times now)? I've never played with him as far as I remember. Seems reasonably concerned about claiming...but ultimately I've got nothing. scumScore=25 (Oh, his name is typoed in the opening post btw)
4. raerae: Seems like typical raerae (i.e. abrasive, joking). I'm not sure I've seen raerae as scum (in terms of when skimming other games...I know I've never played with scum raerae). So I guess I lean town here. scumScore=20
5. mail-mi: First player I've not really noticed. I know he's posted some stuff, and has received some comments. I think there was a back and forth with ashersky last night regarding how he voted for ashersky? I'll try to pay more attention to him. scumScore=25
6. TwistedArcher: Has posted a lot. Not sure if "appeasing" is a scum-trait when applied to twistedarcher. I know it isn't when applied to me, and I know that I have a tendency to appease (maybe I only try to appease and actually don't? Robz always thinks I'm scum because I ask permission to do things like vote though...). He's gotten a lot of heat, which generally makes me lean town. scumScore=20
7. chairs: He claimed paper, so we know he beats rock, and loses to scissors. He's a green card that helps with splaying (thematically because he helps pass down information from one age to the next). Early uninformed claims are usually town (though they are also usually mislynched). This wasn't quite as early, although it was broadcast early. Still likely to be town. scumScore=20.
8. shraeye: I can't pretend that I can read shraeye. I've only really pegged him as scum once, and he was of course town that time (and IC to boot). He seems to have played a similar gambit to ashersky, except he decided to build an actual weak/day-1 case on TA? (unlike ashersky who did it to provoke). Um...I'm going to play it safe and lean scum here. scumScore=28
9. Ahoppy: Second player I haven't noticed. This time I've got absolutely nothing. I don't know if he's been posting little, or if I don't know him and so don't have a voice to associate with him. Can't remember other comments regarding him. No knowledge of player means slight scum right? (even if it's entirely my own fault) scumScore=27
10. EFHW: One of the three players in conversation last night (with TA and ashersky). I think she's the one taking the opposite viewpoint to me regarding claiming (i.e. that we should claim items we have rather than items we need). ashersky thinks she sounds like when she's scum. Eevee thinks that she sounds like Efhw. I don't know her meta. I've got nothing really. scumScore=25
11. spiritbears: One of these days spiritbears is going to be scum, and we'll all be surprised. I don't know enough about how spiritbears plays mafia, except that everyone always thinks he's town. I can see why...I think he's town too. And I can't even figure out why (I don't remember anything he's actually said, just that he seems like town.) scumScore=20
12. theorel: Yep, I'm here. I'm the most pro-town player around, even if I always lose anyways. At least people don't usually suspect me until around day3. scumScore=0.
13. nkirbit: I was about to say I remembered nothing, then I remembered...he called himself out for underposting, after someone didn't call him out for it (ahoppy maybe? I'll have to check). I think this might actually be a scum trait based on experience (I remember Galzria calling himself out in DS9. I think other scum has done it in the past). Although it seems like a townie thing to do, maybe it's one of those town things that scum does to look townie? Meh, the better townie response would be to post more. Well, I'm not going to build a case around it, but I'll lean scum here for now, scumScore=28.
I like this type of post. When/if I find time today, I'll try to share my opinions in a similar vein.
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Eevee was vert active in the just completed mean girls...as scum. I'm not quite ready to call his lurking scummy. But it could be....
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As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
This is silly. I absolutely believe in the case that I made; what do you mean by real case? I didn't claim you were ultra scummy, you were just the very first player who did things that stood out to me, and I voted you because of it. Now, I definitely tried to vote you in the most provocative way possible, because I really wanted to gauge others' reactions.
But if people were looking at my vote and going, "yeah! shraeye has a vote and a case; i'm eager to hear this slam-dunk air-tight case that he made THREE HOURS INTO THE GAME"...like seriously?
As soon as I read Shraeye's case, I knew he wasn't pushing it as a real case, or at least that he didn't think I was as scummy as he claimed I was -- he's smarter than that. Sure, he may have some inclination, but the stuff he pushed on me was not a real case. I assumed he was more than likely trying to get a reaction, similar to what he did in D1 of Pirates with his case on EFHW.
I think shraeye was pushing the best case he felt he had at this early juncture in the game. I don't think it was to get a reaction out of anyone.
This is the reasonable reaction to have to my case, which WAS weak, because it was based on 3 hours of info. However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum.
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
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Another thing that I've been thinking through. ashersky voted raerae with no stated reason, and I voted for Twisted with no stated reason. Both of us voted in a purposefully provocative way.
And then the raerae/ash thing really took off; people were begging ash to say why, people were joining his wagon, voting for ash because he was being bull-headed, and all that jazz. But I recall only Twisted asking with any persistence about my vote on him.
If one of our "cases" was on scum, and one on town, I think I'd expect a bit more activity regarding both of the votes. If scum found their partner getting too much attention, they'd bring up the other person. And if scum saw everyone piling on the town-wagon, they'd focus on their partner and try to buy some cred that way.
The way the reactions fell, it seems more possible that raerae/TA are of the same alignment.
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However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum.
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
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However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum.
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case? Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
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However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum.
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case? Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye
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I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case? Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
[/quote]
You pushed it pretty hard. You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a pretty aggressively worded response to his response (see below). You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible. So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously? Why are you now ridiculing me? Vote: Shraeye.
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@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)
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As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
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Fixed quotes and on looking back again decided I had phrased things too strongly before. Please substitute this for the earlier post. Still keeping my vote there for now, though.
I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case? Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
You pushed it hard enough. You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below). You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible. So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously? Why are you now ridiculing me? Vote: Shraeye.
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You pushed it hard enough. You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below). You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible. So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously? Why are you now ridiculing me? Vote: Shraeye.
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard. That just is me trying to create reactions.
You are just taking this misinterpretation further and further. I pushed my case hard because I had several paragraphs in a single post?? What do you mean by reiteration; are you simply talking about when I responded to Twisted's defense??
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You pushed it hard enough. You made the initial post, which was several paragraphs, and then followed up with a reiteration (see below). You said yourself that you made it as provocative as possible. So, what's so mysterious if I took you seriously? Why are you now ridiculing me? Vote: Shraeye.
I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard. That just is me trying to create reactions.
You are just taking this misinterpretation further and further. I pushed my case hard because I had several paragraphs in a single post?? What do you mean by reiteration; are you simply talking about when I responded to Twisted's defense??
yes
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I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard. That just is me trying to create reactions.
Right, I see that. But you are now on my case because I took you seriously and I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't -- is odd or scummy.
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I made my vote as provocative as possible; that doesn't equate to me pushing a case hard. That just is me trying to create reactions.
Right, I see that. But you are now on my case because I took you seriously and I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't -- is odd or scummy.
I acknowledge that I didn't only challenge it, I also speculated on why you would make the case at all. But I don't see what is odd about that. Your posts didn't seem like a gambit to me. You say they were. I didn't know that then. (I'm actually still not sure, but that's a different question).
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Given that I voted for Shraeye as a joke, and it now looks as though he may be seriously being voted for (and I haven't made up my mind about the evidence so far provided)...
unvote
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I think there's some miscommunication going on here.
shraeye has never said his case was a gambit. He said his vote-presentation was, but the case was always just a weak case.
He also never said he pushed the case hard (unless I missed it), nor has he said he didn't really mean the case. He said he made a provocative vote to gauge reactions, and then gave the weak case after prompting.
I personally don't equate 3 posts to pushing a case hard, especially when one is a sarcastic comment. The response to Twisted's defense is more explanatory than anything.
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Your posts didn't seem like a gambit to me. You say they were.
I don't see how my challenging your case -- which you seemed to really mean, even if now you say you didn't -- is odd or scummy.
Stop. Just stop. I never said my posts were a gambit. I never said I didn't mean that case. Seriously, those statements you are making have no basis in reality. stop.
I absolutely believe in the case that I made
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I think there's some miscommunication going on here.
shraeye has never said his case was a gambit. He said his vote-presentation was, but the case was always just a weak case.
He also never said he pushed the case hard (unless I missed it), nor has he said he didn't really mean the case. He said he made a provocative vote to gauge reactions, and then gave the weak case after prompting.
I personally don't equate 3 posts to pushing a case hard, especially when one is a sarcastic comment. The response to Twisted's defense is more explanatory than anything.
So you are ok with him pushing s weak case then?
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Spiritbears, are you ok with me making a weak case?
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I'm okay with him presenting a weak case, and then answering questions about it, sure.
3 posts does not constitute pushing a case (especially based on my experience with shraeye). Pushing a case usually involves bringing it back up with more points as more things come up (or after rereading). Have cases really gotten so weak that that's considered pushing?
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I'm okay with him presenting a weak case, and then answering questions about it, sure.
3 posts does not constitute pushing a case (especially based on my experience with shraeye). Pushing a case usually involves bringing it back up with more points as more things come up (or after rereading). Have cases really gotten so weak that that's considered pushing?
Ok that's fair. It seemed like much mire than three posts....but maybe I'm reading their earlier back and forth into it....
I do think shraeya cones across scumier the. Efhw....
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Making a weak case (any case even) deserves to be questioned, but I didn't vote him based on the case. I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit? Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade? Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position.
What prompted me to vote and the part that is scummiest to me is his painting my reaction as "odd" and "not the good kind, either". This doesn't make any sense and therefore strikes me as opportunistic. When I asked for an explanation he attacked my characterization of him and did not explain what was "odd" and "not the good kind" in my reactions. Miscommunication doesn't fit what I see happening here.
However, EFHW has the oddest reaction, deciding that because normally on-point shraeye was presenting such a weak case, that either I'm scum, I'm trying my hardest and Twisted is scum, or we're both scum.
Re: scum-hunting, I had a thought about Shraeye. In Pirates he got a bee in his bonnet about TA and TA ended up getting mislynched. Now he is presenting a weak case on TA. I don't think Shraeye actually has some deep-seated animus towards TA, which means either 1) he is bussing or 2) he thinks it really is a good case, or 3) he is scum trying to get a townie mislynched. After Pirates I'd think he would pick someone else to try to drive a mislynch through on and I don't really think he thinks it's a good case, which leaves me with 1. Which suggests they are both scum.
This is the strongest bit of evidence I've seen so far re: finding scum.
This is exactly the sort of reaction that I was waiting for, and it isn't the good type either.
I don't get it. You admit to pushing a weak case harder than it deserved and find it odd when I take note of that and wonder what it means?
Riddle me this batman, how hard did I actually push the TA case? Like seriously, more people need to realize that you're painting this way differently than it was.
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When I say "pushing a weak case harder than it deserved", that is how I interpreted his saying he made it as provocative as possible. It's not about how many posts or the number of points in his argument, it's my interpretation of what he himself said. Substitute "tried to provoke responses" if that fits better for you.
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I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit? Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade? Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position.
What prompted me to vote and the part that is scummiest to me is his painting my reaction as "odd" and "not the good kind, either". This doesn't make any sense and therefore strikes me as opportunistic. When I asked for an explanation he attacked my characterization of him and did not explain what was "odd" and "not the good kind" in my reactions. Miscommunication doesn't fit what I see happening here.
Wow, you really think there is zero ground between gambit-vote that I'm backing up with no real conviction, and pushing a case hard.
Also, This post above which I am quoting is the VERY FIRST time you have directly OR indirectly asked me to explain my characterization of your reaction as "odd", yet you are trying to spin my "avoiding it" as scummy.
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Here is the post that EFHW snipped from:
In it, I highlight ashersky's completely normal reaction to my case; he saw exactly what I was doing, voting for a case that made sense to me but was weak by virtue of the game just starting. My reasons for voting Twisted weren't gambit-fake, but I did try to be controversial with the way I voted, to maximize reactions to it.
I explained already how EFHW's reaction is odd (my snipped post above); she looked at the situation, and somehow, based on who looked scummy to me in a past game, reached the conclusion that my vote was a bus. Because, according to EFHW, even shraeye couldn't believe a case like that. This really looks like she is looking at the facts from a very particular perspective, trying to make sure that at least one of shraeye/TA comes out looking scummy.
Later on, you posted the most logical explanation, and said that you hadn't thought about it, but wanted to include it just to be fair. I think that really looks like somebody who realized how scummy their first post was, and tried to mollify that later on.
4). Shraeye could be content to post a weak case as though it is strong b/c it is day one and all we have so far. I'm not sure what I think of this option, but thought I should add it to be fair.
She kept changing and making up facts to try to stick it to me, during our exchange, and now that she sees that my point is getting through to other people like spiritbears and theorel, she decides to shift tactics and paint me scummy by saying that I "avoided" something which she never even asked me to do.
Vote: EFHW
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Here is where I asked you. It was right after you first said it.
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I have zero investment in painting you as scummy. I'm reacting to what I see, and each time you escalate further. Re: option 4, it seems like most people say "I know it's day one" or "FOS here, I noticed this..." etc. You don't have to do that, but since you didn't do that, and you voted, that's why it came across as it did to me.
I haven't changed my position at all this whole time, so that is either a mischaracterization or a misinterpretation on your part.
I think I've said all I can about where I stand here. Continuing to explain myself seems to make things worse not better.
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That question is rhetorical.
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Technically maybe, but that's not what I intended and not how it reads to me.
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Making a weak case (any case even) deserves to be questioned, but I didn't vote him based on the case. I wondered why he made it, and expressed some suspicion. To address Theorel's points, why make it at all if the initial vote was the gambit? Why respond to prompting by explaining it further if you aren't trying to persuade? Being sarcastic suggests an investment in his position.
Being sarcastic suggests he's shraeye.
Cases deserve to be questioned. Making a case (any case even) does not deserve to be questioned. Pushing for a lynch deserves to be questioned. There's a huge span of gray area between making a case that a player is scummy and pushing for their lynch. Just like there's a huge gulf between voting for someone and wanting them lynched. One act is necessary for the other, but it doesn't imply the other.
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FWIW - I will be taking a trip to Chicago, and will have limited posting abilities (not that I think my posting has been terribly productive to begin with) for at least the next 24 hours. I suspect I will have semi-regular access to a computer once I get there, but if not i can at least post from my phone. Apologies in advance for the afk.
I think I unvoted already to prevent being on any accidental wagon while I"m out, but if not: unvote
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Vote Count 1.5
xeiron (1) raerae
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) spiritbears, EFHW
ashersky (1) mail-mi
EFHW (1) shraeye
Not Voting: (7) ashersky, Eevee, Twistedarcher, AHoppy, theorel, nkirbit, chairs.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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I guess I'm just shoved under the table and don't count in the not voting count? :o
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Vote: chairs - for claiming. Damn, was really hoping that wouldn't have to happen.
Shraeye and EFHW are being ridiculous. I don't care who pulled hair first but both of you need to let go and hug it out. EFHW was grossly exaggerating when she said shraeye was "pushing" TA's case. He voted, then explained the vote. Done. Shraeye got over excited at her exaggeration and now this has happened. I'd like to note that NOBODY is participating in this discussion but you two. So what does that generally mean, kids? Yup, probably town v. town. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. If I had to point the scum finger at somebody, EFHW would get that honor because of her gross exaggeration and misrepresentation BUT her reaction to shraeye's reaction reads like pissed off and annoyed EFHW from Pirates. I still lean toward the tvt thing though. And moving on now.
TA, you've been extra super duper quiet lately...what's up with that?
And for the people saying they aren't good at scumhunting, I'm going to tell you something my mom STILL tells me when, "Well, you can't get any better if you don't practice!" So, scumhunt or prepare to be lynched because if you aren't hunting, you're being hunted.
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I guess I'm just shoved under the table and don't count in the not voting count? :o
Fixed
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I really dislike shyrae's insinuation that bescuse I find him more scummy than efhw, I must not be thinking fir myself...that kind of argument just gets under my skin....
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As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
What percent of this vote is RVS?
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TechnicallyCall me maybe, but that's not what I intended and not how it reads to me.
Fixed.
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I fall on the raerae side of the shraeye/EFHW debacle. I have a town read on shraeye, scum read on EFHW, but the argument isn't helping.
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Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!
I've been slacking, so need to re-read.
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Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!
I've been slacking, so need to re-read.
If you want suggestions on what to read:
1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors
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Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!
I've been slacking, so need to re-read.
If you want suggestions on what to read:
1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors
Thank you. I started skimming and my general thoughts are "wow, what are we even arguing about?"
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@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)
I would note that the three item thing was in a PM sent to all players (I assume, given BCC) regarding how N0 was going. The PM mentioned scum QTs locking, which is why I think scum got it as well as town. So I would count that as public knowledge.
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Well, I just got lynched in back to basics, so I'll be more active here now!
I've been slacking, so need to re-read.
If you want suggestions on what to read:
1) reactions to my raerae vote
2) reactions to shraeye's TA vote
3) look for undercontributors
Thank you. I started skimming and my general thoughts are "wow, what are we even arguing about?"
Very little :)
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As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.
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As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.
vote: mail-mi
12% OMGUS.
Finding 88% seriousness in voting me for your frustration that I caught your scum partner mcmc in a previous game while I was a tracker is insanity.
If I wasn't mentioning it at all, someone would be pointing it out for us. It's out there. It's relevant when you are talking about ash meta. Plus, it was freaking awesome. I rock as town.
But "it's annoying" is a reason to 88% seriously vote for someone? Now THAT is annoying.
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As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
What percent of this vote is RVS?
Its 12% RVS.
vote: mail-mi
12% OMGUS.
Finding 88% seriousness in voting me for your frustration that I caught your scum partner mcmc in a previous game while I was a tracker is insanity.
If I wasn't mentioning it at all, someone would be pointing it out for us. It's out there. It's relevant when you are talking about ash meta. Plus, it was freaking awesome. I rock as town.
But "it's annoying" is a reason to 88% seriously vote for someone? Now THAT is annoying.
The "It's annoying" part is the 12% RVS. The "Scum!ash is trying to get into our heads!" is the 88% serious part.
P.S. 12% is just a random smallish number that I came up with because I was thinking about that scene in Avengers.
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I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.
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I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.
Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game? Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
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I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.
Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game? Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
It's not that I don't have availability, certainly. Hmm, I guess it's the game being so large, it being day 1 and the topics of discussion mostly being claiming stuff / trying to break the setup, not things I feel I have much to offer on. I imagine it'll change when we get further in the game (to areas where I'm more comfortable at).
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I lean on town v town on the argument too. In my experience the arguments that don't make much sense are often town v town.
Why haven't you been as active as normal in this game? Midsummer's Eve isn't an excuse anymore.
It's not that I don't have availability, certainly. Hmm, I guess it's the game being so large, it being day 1 and the topics of discussion mostly being claiming stuff / trying to break the setup, not things I feel I have much to offer on. I imagine it'll change when we get further in the game (to areas where I'm more comfortable at).
No comment on the emotional portions of the game? That's your forte after all.
There have been a few emotional moments -- shraeye vs. EFHW, raerae's early responses to my vote, maybe a few of sb's posts.
I know you agreed tvt for shraeye/EFHW, but no other takeaways?
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First, I appreciate you trying to get me more involved like that! Very protown work.
Second, hmm. I've been reading, and nothing has really stood out for me. Like all of the arguments have seemed like complicated constructing rather than emotionally unleashing without thinking, if that makes any sense.
I got the town read from your early aggressiveness. Raerae I think matches her town behaviour, but I don't have an opinion on if she is like that when scum as well.
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I am happy to end the argument with Shraeye, and I don't expect any response to this post and hope never to have occasion to mention the issue again, but I feel like I have to say that I do not agree with raerae's description of what happened at all. There was some disagreement about what "pushing" meant, and I did not intend it the way it was taken, but I think I was mostly being persistent in trying to get a few points across that never did make it. So I hope everyone will read for themselves instead of accepting her summary. THE END.
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I'm here and catching up. Raerae, you voted for chairs, and you said you would policy vote all claimers, but do you actually think he's scum?
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EFHW comes off scummier than Shraeye in this argument, and I'm not as convinced as everyone else that this is town vs. town. The list that she came up with for Shraeye's reasons for pushing the argument all incriminate him as scum. That's just really early, and really strong, for a list that definitely says someone's scum for pushing a case so early, and the fourth reason being thrown in afterwards is sketchy. EFHW is a scummier read, Shraeye is a townier read.
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EFHW comes off scummier than Shraeye in this argument, and I'm not as convinced as everyone else that this is town vs. town. The list that she came up with for Shraeye's reasons for pushing the argument all incriminate him as scum. That's just really early, and really strong, for a list that definitely says someone's scum for pushing a case so early, and the fourth reason being thrown in afterwards is sketchy. EFHW is a scummier read, Shraeye is a townier read.
I see it just the opposite
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After seeing spiritbears' vote on Shraeye I decided to go back and read him a little bit. There's some scummy stuff in there.
His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.
In #254, he states an approval of an opinion EFHW put forth on theory, saying that this isn't the first time he's found himself agreeing with her.
In the midst of the EFHW-Shraeye argument, in #397, he places a vote, with little explanation, but it's clear that he agrees with EFHW, and not with Shraeye. In #409, he asks Theorel if he's okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case (so this is his reason for voting, it seems). He says that Shraeye comes across as scummier as EFHW, but he hasn't really said why, and he hasn't said why he believes EFHW but not Shraeye, other than the fact that he doesn't like that Shraeye is pushing a weak case (#409).
Then, when Nkirbit asks what the argument is about, he responds "very little" -- but not little enough for him to have placed a vote over it!
Basically, I think Spiritbears placed votes on two people, hoping to get people to join in. Initially, there was the vote on Ashersky, who did something that would read very scummy from most people -- the vote for Raerae with no explanation. Even after Ashersky explaoined what he did, SB still continued to find him scummy.
The second, and more scummy to me, is the vote on Shraeye and the interaction with EFHW. It's possible this vote simply came from his town read on EFHW, but that still shouldn't automatically lead to a scum-read on Shraeye, either. The impression I get is that the scum-read on Shraeye comes from simply disagreeing with someone he finds towny, which reads forced and unlike true scumhunting to me. When pushing the case to another (Theorel), his main explanation for finding Shraeye scummy is that he "pushed a weak case" -- something that Shraeye himself has admitted to. It's early D1, of course the case was weak! That doesn't make Shraeye scum, and I think jumping on him for that, when given the opportunity, is the scummiest thing I've seen yet.
Vote: Spiritbears
PPE: I see he has disagreed on my assessment of EFHW vs. Shraeye -- but not really explained why, again. SB, besides Shraeye's case being weak, why do you have a scumread on Shraeye and a townread on EFHW?
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Popsquiz time!
Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel
I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on. But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say. But not really. Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game. Very useful later on.
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After seeing spiritbears' vote on Shraeye I decided to go back and read him a little bit. There's some scummy stuff in there.
His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.
In #254, he states an approval of an opinion EFHW put forth on theory, saying that this isn't the first time he's found himself agreeing with her.
In the midst of the EFHW-Shraeye argument, in #397, he places a vote, with little explanation, but it's clear that he agrees with EFHW, and not with Shraeye. In #409, he asks Theorel if he's okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case (so this is his reason for voting, it seems). He says that Shraeye comes across as scummier as EFHW, but he hasn't really said why, and he hasn't said why he believes EFHW but not Shraeye, other than the fact that he doesn't like that Shraeye is pushing a weak case (#409).
Then, when Nkirbit asks what the argument is about, he responds "very little" -- but not little enough for him to have placed a vote over it!
Basically, I think Spiritbears placed votes on two people, hoping to get people to join in. Initially, there was the vote on Ashersky, who did something that would read very scummy from most people -- the vote for Raerae with no explanation. Even after Ashersky explaoined what he did, SB still continued to find him scummy.
The second, and more scummy to me, is the vote on Shraeye and the interaction with EFHW. It's possible this vote simply came from his town read on EFHW, but that still shouldn't automatically lead to a scum-read on Shraeye, either. The impression I get is that the scum-read on Shraeye comes from simply disagreeing with someone he finds towny, which reads forced and unlike true scumhunting to me. When pushing the case to another (Theorel), his main explanation for finding Shraeye scummy is that he "pushed a weak case" -- something that Shraeye himself has admitted to. It's early D1, of course the case was weak! That doesn't make Shraeye scum, and I think jumping on him for that, when given the opportunity, is the scummiest thing I've seen yet.
Vote: Spiritbears
PPE: I see he has disagreed on my assessment of EFHW vs. Shraeye -- but not really explained why, again. SB, besides Shraeye's case being weak, why do you have a scumread on Shraeye and a townread on EFHW?
So what youbhave there TA is a whole bunch if nothing fluffed up to try and make me look scummy
That's just the kind of nonsense I would expect from certain others....
But really. What you are saying is you disagree with me that ash has been scummy....you disagree with me that shrae was scummy pushing a weak case against a player that has been this far helpful to town....
So that means I'm scum? Because I have different reads than you!
Really this shows scumniness on your part....Bigtime
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Popsquiz time!
Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel
I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on. But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say. But not really. Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game. Very useful later on.
Do you mean this literally? That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now. As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer? Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one? Or in general? Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4? Just wondering.
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SB, why do you think Shraeye is scummy and EFHW isn't?
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Popsquiz time!
Would lynch: Archetype, xieron, mail-mi, EFHW, spiritbears
Middle: Eevee, chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit
Would not lynch: ashersky, raerae, TA, shraeye, theorel
I think these are great early in the game, because there is little to go on. But ash, that's a terrible thing, you say. But not really. Think about it, there is very little to hide behind when you make a list like this so early in the game. Very useful later on.
Do you mean this literally? That seems like a lot of people to be so sure of right now. As in if any of the 4 players on your "would lynch" list were at L-1 at this very moment you would hammer? Maybe you have a low lynching threshold Day one? Or in general? Or maybe you mean you would seriously consider lynching those top 4? Just wondering.
Would Lynch at this point is basically scummy reads. Not necessarily hammer right this minute, but would hammer if it was deadline time.
Yes, very low threshold for D1 this early on.
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If this were deadline?
would lynch: anyone but myself
would not lynch: myself
As it stands now?
would lynch: no one
would not lynch: everyone
I've already given reads...none of those are strong enough to support a lynch or push against one at deadline.
I need to consider the efhw vs shraeye thing. I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum. Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant).
In this case, that's spiritbears. And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire. It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town. Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you. OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate. That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle. Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral. Say scumScore=26).
I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others. I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.
raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town". As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy. Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town. Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things. I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.
Then TwistedArcher decided to go further than I do above and really take it to spiritbears. It seems a little puffed up to me also, but it's still early.
ashersky and Eevee...there might be stuff to draw out of either of their recent posts, but I don't have anything at the moment.
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"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst? Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum. This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
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"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst? Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum. This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion
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I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.
I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!
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"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst? Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum. This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
You still have yet to explain why you agree with efhw and not shraeye. Please answer this!
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"Fuel to the fire"!!! Again, trying to make me sound scummy, for whst? Becsuee I agrééd with efhw? That is so messed up. Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...I disagree and find shrae'"case"and push back to be more scummy. And for that, I must be scum. This is a worse case than the one shrae was pushing....
I'm changing my vote here not for any stupid OMGUS, but because imo the hallmark of scum is pushing weak cases againstnsxtice players...it's why scum keeps winning and we keep losing.
vote ta
unvote
Sorry I thought that postwas from TA not Theo
It's still a false accusation Theo....a weak distortion
Fuel to the fire might be strong, I'll explain why I felt that way though:
I initially saw your vote as a joke (I mean your provided "reasoning" was riddler is scummy). But your later arguments seemed to support it as not a joke. You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw". Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble). But the fact that it's supported with a vote (though already existent) makes it seem stronger. Compare: "this is probably town v. town but efhw seems scummier" to "vote for shraeye, shraeye seems scummier". And I think you'll see where I'm coming from?
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
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I got to say spirit is appearing way scummier than he usually is to me.
I don't know if it's alignment-related though, but definitely worth noting. I don't know why I feel so unsure about everything in this game!
Because you need to post more and scumhunt more! I feel like you haven't gotten into the game yet which is a bit odd for you
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
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I really dislike shyrae's insinuation that bescuse I find him more scummy than efhw, I must not be thinking fir myself...that kind of argument just gets under my skin....
Sorry, that's not what I was tyring to say. I was pointing out how you and theorel were beginning to understand what I was saying about my side of the argument, and I suspect that that prompted EFHW to switch her tactic. I'm not sure where you got that insinuation from.
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Ok, I've reread mine and EFHW's fight with a cooler head, and I realize that I need to settle down and keep my attention more broadly focus on all the players...sometimes I just get locked into self-confirming suspicion, and I really don't like to do that so early in a game as it leaves me with no thoughts and reads on the other players at all. I can see the point that EFHW's posts could be pure misunderstanding instead of a little confusion mixed with maliciousness.
unvote
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You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw". Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).
I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence. But really we just have a few people stating similar positions. Most people haven't weighed in at all. Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree? IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.
Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know.
And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.
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Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered
Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record.
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy
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I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.
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sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
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So here's the thing - I don't want to continue any animosity b/w me and Shraeye, but he remains my top scum read at this point. So I am going to have to leave my vote there without any intention of provoking anything - though if I become more convinced I may start advocating for his lynch. My popsquiz:
Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
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Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
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sorry you're not feeling well, spirit.
TY
I m sorry for my unreadable posts.
Along with all my other stupid problems I have epilepsy,
and some days just can't make it through a post with seizing
Thsnk you all for your kind patience with me...
I know I don't deserve it mostly
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Ta--it's all there, no idea why you think it's not answered
Theo-- I seriously objct to this nothion that noticing/objecting to something +vote=scummy, while noticing injecting + no vote=not scummy.
Thisbl is the kind of logic that legs scum slip by withoit having to go on the record.
Voting in and of itself is not scumniness in fact it'd the opposite.
F
Sorry can't focus enough to write m o
Having s bad day. Pkez don't lunch mr for lack of cleitjy
I think I'm not being entirely clear. Your vote + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as "I think shraeye is scum, we should lynch him."
Saying town v. town + "shraeye scummier" to me reads as, "I really don't think we should lynch either of these players."
One of those reads to me as encouraging conflict, while the other seeks reconciliation. I find it more pro-town to seek reconciliation simply because most conflicts (not a vast majority, but most) are town v town. I think that cooler, less emotional heads will tend to do better at finding scum. I acknowledge that others disagree on this matter, but I've held this opinion forever and haven't seen anything to change my mind (although I've seen lots of bad lynches of emotional players to further cement my opinion on this matter).
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Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands your issues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)
Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:
#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"
#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"
#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)
Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.
You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.
I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
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Post count post count! (includes pre-game)
Ashersky - 73
Ahoppy - 66
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6
Thoughts on the post count:
1) Chairs, can you please edit your profile to make a goko or isotropic username? That way, it's easier to control + f and find how many posts you've made.
2) WOW, Ahoppy has 66 posts??? I would have sworn it would be like 1/3 of that. I need to go back and read what's he said, since I seriously don't remember anything significant. Mail-mi at 30 is also higher than I would have guessed, I remember nothing from him as well. These are the two that stick out to me as the more "empty" post counts.
3) Xeiron, Eevee, Nkirbit to a lesser degree...post more!!
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Nevermind, I'm an idiot, Ahoppy has 33 posts, not 66. I was doublecounting and getting both his isotropic and goko username.
Ashersky - 73
EFHW - 58
Twistedarcher - 57
Spiritbears - 38
Ahoppy - 33
Mail-mi - 30
Raerae - 28
Chairs - 21
Theorel - 21
Shraeye - 20
Nkirbit - 17
Eevee - 9
Xeiron - 6
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Looking back through Ahoppy's posts, there's like nothing of substance or ANY reads in them. Ahoppy, when you catch up, give us your reads please.
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You said "shraeye came off scummier than efhw". Which could be a very weak thing, which as noted many people have taken the opposite viewpoint (and I don't think they are stirring trouble).
I'm noticing that you sometimes bring the opinions expressed by others into your arguments as though town consensus is a kind of evidence. But really we just have a few people stating similar positions. Most people haven't weighed in at all. Spirit made his own independent assessment, is it scummy because other's disagree? IMO, people finding me scummier in the argument can't really be reading it carefully, because I feel I was sticking to my argument and trying to be understood, and that's not scummy.
Do me a favor and try rereading it just reading me, not any of the responses, and if it looks scummy please tell me where b/c I really want to know.
And if you're willing, reread TA during the period and tell me your impressions.
I specifically did not do that in order to present it as an argument or evidence. I did it because it's not an opinion I share, my opinion is
I certainly disagreed with efhw materially, but that doesn't mean she's scum. Usually I find these arguments actually provide more information for the alignment of players that participated but weren't the target (and very little information about either participant).
Meaning that I don't think either you or shraeye are scummier for the argument, because it was an argument and in my experience arguments offer very little information about the participants.
HOWEVER
"As was noted" by spiritbears himself (the target of the quote)
Well, consensus is efhw comes across as scummy...
Now, I lessened that (in particular I don't think it's a consensus). I said "many people". Because raerae, ashersky, and TwistedArcher had all expressed that viewpoint (and I thought Eevee, but he actually didn't looking back).
I tried to explain why I said his comment was "adding fuel to the fire" when I didn't say so for others who took a similar strength stand to him. That reason was the vote. In other words it has nothing to do with him saying "shraeye scummier" rather than "efhw scummier". It's immaterial WHO he found scummier, what matters is the form of presentation.
Importantly, I never in that post argued for you being scummy, nor have I to my knowledge. I have a fully 100% neutral read on you.
Honestly, if twistedarcher had made his post during the argument, I might have considered it inflammatory as well. But he didn't, he made it after the argument was clearly not gaining traction. So the only people of relevance here were (in my mind at the time) raerae, ashersky, and Eevee who all expressed the town v town sentiment.
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[Now te author=Twistedarcher link=topic=8002.msg262465#msg262465 date=1372358580]
Spiritbears, first of all, I hope you feel better. I (and I'm 100% sure everyone else as well) understands yohave s toenssues, and we're completely understanding of them. We'd never consider voting or lynching you for lack or clarity or typos or anything of the sort. Feel better! :)
Here's all your posts describing your views on EFHW / Shraeye:
#254 This post is quoting a post by EFHW - you say: "Agree with this 100%
Not the first time I find myself agreeing
With her this game"
#397 The first mention of anything about Shraeye, in the middle of his back and forth, you say
"The riddler was definitely scum
vote shraeye"
#409 Calls Shraeye case weak (to theorel)
#412 Shraeye scummier than EFHW, doesn't say why
#427 Dislikes that Shraeye is insinuating that he must not be thinking for himself
#447 Sees it just the opposite as I (TA) do (he thinks Shraeye is scummier than EFHW)
Basically, at no point have you said why you think Shraeye's case is weak. You jumped in with a vote before explaining the vote, then in your next post, offered your view that the case was weak. This was after several others had described the case as weak, so it's not as if this was definitely 100% an opinion you came up with yourself.
You also have the unexplained town read on EFHW from all of this. You agree with her theory post in #254, but it's just a theory post, probably the easiest kind of post to fake -- I'm not sure why that leads you to a town read on her. Later on, you never mention or defend why she doesn't come off scummy, when several others have thought that she DOES come off scummy -- you only simply state that Shraeye comes off scummier, nothing more.
I think your vote / view on the EFHW / Shraeye argument is forced and arbitrary, hence my vote on you.
[/quote]
Thanks! I appreciate your kindness...all of you. I can't get out much and you all have become like my family. Days without mafia are hard to take!
Now..for the not so fun...
So whst I get from this post TA is basically you disagree with my opinion so that makes me scummy---and anyone that agrees with you towny....
Again this is classic scum argument: you are out on that limb by yourself there sb---lets hack it off.
My reading of shrseye is MY READ NOT YOURS.
MY READ OF EFHW is MY READ NOT yours
I never asked you to agree with it.....but you on the other hand are demanding I agree with you...or you'll vote me, and then you'll railroad me....and then I'll be mislynched...all becaue I have a town read on efhw.
You probably realize I react very negatively to
Peer pressure. I won't change my view of efhw just because you all demand it. (Btw--nk can tell you how swell I handled the pressure to read him as mafia before he wss mislunched...but I probably shoundt even bring that up)
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@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read. He's asking you to explain your read. He's using the fact that it's different to point out why it needs explained.
I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind. And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so. If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
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@spiritbears: I don't think twisted is demanding you change your read. He's askiby o explain your read. He's usingactive act that it's different to point out why it needs explained.
I don't think you should feel pressured to change your mind. And if there's nothing quantifiable, you can simply say so. If you do understand why you have the read you should explain it.
That's kindof not true.
There was no other way to read TA....becausie he declared my read scummy and voted for me!
That was either pressure to change my vote, or it was a straight up: sb is mafia.
And actually it was both
As for my read on shraere...how many times to I have to say it. I read his arguments and weaksauce case against efhw as scummy and weaksauce. i have a low tolerance for pushing bad cases on town reads (It read like the scummy weak case TA has pushed on me...
Actually Ta's case is even worse.
But becsue you all deemed efhw to hold the scumier position in the argument, then I am scum for agreeing with her. As you pointed out TA-- I hsve read efhw as town most of the game. How that is a part of your master scum case on me is beyond ridiculous.
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Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of Shraeye. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:
1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.
Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.
Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to, and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.
Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHW. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.
Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
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Come in on the side of Shraeye = Come in on the side of EFHW
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proofreading is fun
Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:
1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.
Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.
Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.
Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.
Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
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proofreayou're is fun
Yes, what Theorel said. I am in no way asking you to change your reads -- I merely want explanation, which you haven't provided so far (until the most recent post). I feel you arbitrarily came in on the side of EFHW, and that regardless of what Shraeye's case was, you were always going to come in on the side of ShraeyeEFHW. There's two explanations for this, in my mind:
1) Your town read of EFHW was always going to increase the likelihood of siding with her in an argument
2) You're scum who isn't making a real read, but rather an arbitrary one, without adequate explanation of your view.
Once again, it's not your view I have a problem with -- it's your town read on EFHW with little explanation, and your way of voting Shraeye without providing any explanation other than "his case is weak". Well, why is it weak? It's easy to say "Yeah that's a weaksauce case", especially when others have said the same.
Just because you have a town read on EFHW doesn't mean that Shraeye has to be scum , and it doesn't make him scum, necessarily. Town push cases on town all the time. It happens. It doesn't necessarily make Shraeye scum. What's giving me a scum read on you is that it seemed like, in large part, your scum read on Shraeye seems to not be shaped by the case itself, but by the fact that it's a case on EFHW, who's a town read for you. Basically, it seems like you're retaliating at Shraeye for making a case on EFHW, rather than for the case.
Why do I think this? Because Shraeye made a similarly weak case on myself, which I would argue was MUCH weaker, and you had no problem with that. Shraeye weak case #1, no reaction. But as soon as he makes a case on EFHW, which you contend is equally weak (and I can see that point of view, it's certainly not an ironclad case), you jump in with a vote on EFHWShraeye. It seems to me that the main reason for your vote and reaction was not the case itself, but rather that it was made on EFHW.
Why do you have a large town read on EFHW?
That is just so pretentious.
1) the case on you wasn't weak. I agreed with it mostly. ive found you mostly scummy and your pushiness does nothing to dissuade that read...
2) oh my reads are just so much garbage ....because they aren't yours...so I'm just going to believe someone else just because I'm an idiot. yeah. That's it.
3) it couldn't possibly be thay I legitimately agree with efhw's positions....no. it's just "arbitrary"
4)...do you listen to yourself???
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Spiritbears, I'm just saying what impression I get from reading it. I'm in no way trying to be pretentious, or saying that your views are inferior to mine in any way. Remember, this is mafia, we're TRYING to figure out when people are making real reads and when they are forcing reads because they're mafia. So calling people's reads into question is part of the game.
My case on you is in no way meant as a personal attack, and I hope you understand that it's not meant as much. I just simply think there's a good chance you drew mafia in this game, and I've stated why.
I apologize if I'm coming off as pretentious, but please try to read my case from a scum-hunting perspective, and not from a putting-you-down perspective.
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
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Okay, so first thought:
In terms of Ash accusing raerae, the reactions, etc. I've just read up to the point where Ash admitted he had no actual case and was just fishing for reactions.
The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron. Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons. Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player? And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this). I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though. If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.
Other players had different reactions to the case. TA acknowledged it, but refused to give an opinion until Ash gave a reason for his vote. Ash points out that Eevee and Shraeye thought it was a ploy. EFHW states this as well. These are all normal reactions, in my mind.
The scummy people here are people who were around, and while this was going on, refused to acknowledge that this was even going on. Ahoppy was present, and clamoring for scumhunting, but as far as I can, never once comments on Ash vs Raerae. Sitting around talking about theory rather than acknowledging voting, which I think Ahoppy, Theorel, Chairs, and SB, are all guilty of, is what I'm most concerned about in this interaction. It's so easy to talk about theory and not give yourself away as scum, and less easy to do so talking about interactions between players. You leave less trails should you be later caught. I think scum has an incentive to focus on theory talk, so think these players are scummy for doing so.
By the way, that theory talk was horrible for the readability of the thread. You guys spent pages and pages theory talking about why you dislike theory talk (yay irony!). That stuff doesn't make for good re-reads!
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".
It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!
Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?
I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.
Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
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Nkirbit, I think out of the group you mentioned (Theorel chairs Ahoppy SB), for the reasons of theory talking but not scumhunting, Ahoppy comes off scummiest to me. He hasn't contributed anything read wise, yet has worked up a healthy post count simply on theory. SB of course I find scummy for other reasons, but providing reads, and Theorel has been providing more reads than the others. Chairs I can't really read, but I think he's town because scum wouldn't item-claim like he has.
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On EFHW: I do agree that I get the same feel from EFHW here that I did in Shakespeare. Whether that means that EFHW is able to hold her meta mostly constant regardless of being town or scum, or EFHW is scum here as well, I don't know. EFHW totally deceived the crap out of me in Shakespeare, so she's capable of either. I've never played a game with town!EFHW, so I can't be sure.
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Eevee was vert active in the just completed mean girls...as scum. I'm not quite ready to call his lurking scummy. But it could be....
"Hey guys! Here's this thing that could be scummy! I don't think it's scummy, but you all should!"
This is the scummiest post I've seen to date, enough so that I feel compelled to point it out.
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To that point in my re-read as opposed to "to date" would make more sense, I guess.
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I agree that Shraeye did not push a case on TA hard at all. If you want to see Shraeye pushing a case against TA hard, go read the end of day 2 of pirates.
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His first position is finding Ashershy scummy for tunneling Raerae. That's fine and good, I found Ashersky scummy for it too initially, but he continues to have Ashersky as a scum read and doesn't acknowledge the possibility ever that Ashersky was simply doing it for the reaction, and not because he found Raerae scummy. He also voted Ashersky for "tunneling Raerae", when Ashersky was posting on a lot of topics, and not really pushing in anyway for Raerae by building a case. Later on, after no one but Mail-mi has voted Ashersky, he voices frustration that no one else has considered Ashersky as scum in #380.
That bolded part doesn't seem scummy to me, though. Like, if he were scum, wouldn't he see there's not the support there and try to slide away elsewhere?
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Ultimately, I don't know what to think about the EFHW vs Shraeye argument. I could see it being town vs town, Shraeye as scum, EFHW as scum, any of those make sense to me.
What I will say about it is that raerae's reaction is towny-looking to me. She made the same exact point in D1 of Shakespeare when TA and myself were yelling at each other, and was town here. I think she comes off as towny in most cases. The one case where I would be unsure is if EFHW turns up scum, because EFHW did appear to be losing in the court of public opinion, so scum!raerae could have pulled focus away from her teammate. But I'm going to go with the explanation that raerae is town here, because it's just much more likely, so town points to raerae!
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view. I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
vote: Eevee
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
vote: Eevee
Cool, cool cool cool.
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Time to end my parade of posts with reads! Yay reads!
Scum to Chum (Since I hear people like this terminology!)
Ahoppy
Ta
{EFHW Eevee Mail-Mi SB Shraeye Theorel Xeiron}
Ashersky
Raerae
Chairs
Nkirbit
The group in brackets is all pretty much null-reads, and are listed alphabetically! That's a lot of null-reads, I know :(. Sway me!
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What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
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What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
"I only regret that I have but one vote to give for my scum reads"?
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
What about it is a contradiction? He was very straightforward, just didn't provide any reasons whatsoever besides "that's a bad case".
It's certainly possible that he got stubborn and carried away when it got questioned, yes. But it's also scummy. And I don't think we should dismiss scummy things with "nah there's no way scum would do that, it's too obvious." Scummy is scummy!
Is your opinion on it that what he did is scummy, but he wouldn't be so obvious as scum?
I mean...I guess that's understandable...but I'm looking for scummy stuff, I found something I think it scummy, and I'm bringing it to light. I think it's silly to scumhunt in a range of "Okay, kind of scummy, but not obvious" while dismissing things that could simply just be obvious.
Normally when I play with SB he's very obviously town to me. He's not this game. That's different. I think there's a decent chance he's scum, and it's silly to dismiss something that to me is very obviously scummy as "too obvious".
I'm getting just so tired of your nonsense:
SB IS SCUMMY, SB did something scummy! (Hey, that's not scummy) TA Repeat louder: SB wss scummy!!!
HEY look at all this scummy stuff I found!!!!
TA wears no clothes
At this point your tunneling has gone beyond "scumhunting"....way beyond.
At this point its just scummy
vote TA
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Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.
People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.
Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.
Unvote
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view. I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
This is the thing that gets frustrating about being tunneled unfairly...people start to by whst the tunneler days without checking for themselves. It really isn't that far back, where I explained my read on efhw...and that the read had been consistent since early on in this game. Her observations have been spit on and I agree with her reads. Yet TA claims that's scummy since EFHW IS SUCH OBVISCUM...
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Am I not allowed to make a case anymore? I mean, I don't know what I can do. It's frustrating to make what I think is a reasonable case and have it dismissed as me being pretentious and condescending, me tunnelling, me being scummy.
People make cases in this game, SB. People get accused. It happens. It's part of the game.
Note to self: No more cases on SB, it's not worth the frustration. Even if it makes us less likely to win.
Unvote
Give me a break...you tunnel me all game and all of s sudden when i push back that's unfair to you!!!
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SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
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SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
You also missed what I said about efhw......
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What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
Agreeing with Eevee on what? He hasn't done anything to agree with. That's my current issue with Eevee.
This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee. I think SB made that point, too.
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town. I can see that, although I disagree with it.
2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think. I would guess 3 scum.
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I'm here and catching up. Raerae, you voted for chairs, and you said you would policy vote all claimers, but do you actually think he's scum?
Strictly a policy vote. I don't have any huge scumreads right now. That said, he's getting super reread as soon as I catch up.
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Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
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What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
Agreeing with Eevee on what? He hasn't done anything to agree with. That's my current issue with Eevee.
This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee. I think SB made that point, too.
I don't disagree that Eevee has largely been in the background, especially early in the game, but he just made a statement defending SB against TA's case. And then you voted him. Right after someone does something seems like a slightly odd time to vote him for not doing much.
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
Here's the sb defense.
Here are the "reasons" Eevee lists: more likely sb is just stubborn; too obvious for scum; no reason to act that way as mafia.
Those three things aren't exactly compelling. And they are safe things to say from any perspective. And I don't think this counts as "doing something," as you put it.
If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town. Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic. So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
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SB, I think TA's case was a perfectly fair one to make, and not at all pretentious or unreasonable or anything else.
I agree with this. Absolutely no need to get so defensive, really!
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
Agreeing with Eevee on what? He hasn't done anything to agree with. That's my current issue with Eevee.
This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee. I think SB made that point, too.
He actually make the exact opposite point - that I do not feel like Mean Girls Eevee.
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
vote: Eevee
So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?
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Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
vote: Eevee
So, this vote actually had nothing to do with the post I made - despite the quote? You are voting me for being too small of a presence overall - something you associate with scum Eevee?
You missed a PPE, I think.
But yes, smaller presence generally reads as scum Eevee.
I also think your sb defense was an easy towncred grab, and an easy way to see more active. Like, you didn't even have to read any posts to make that point.
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town. I can see that, although I disagree with it.
2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think. I would guess 3 scum.
I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.
1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.
2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.
In this case, that's spiritbears. And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire. It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town. Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you. OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate. That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle. Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral. Say scumScore=26).
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SB TA heat! I don't know if I like it or not. I think it's getting too heated. TA seems like regular TA and SB does seem a little different.
Anyway I think I'll do a scum to chum list.
Eevee
Ash
SB
Everyone else
TA
Raerae
Me
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vote: eevee
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
Severe usually posts a lot more tho.
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
This is kindof funny coming from a chronic underposter....
Severe usually posts a lot more tho.
Severe pokemon? I like that name for him
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Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Can you walk me through how what ash said (about what I said about spirit, right?) makes me more likely to be mafia?
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If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town. Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic. So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
Here ya go!
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance." I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.
Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:
scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb
Those last two are probably equal. So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum. You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way. And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.
That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance." It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.
So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything. But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1. I learned that on N1. So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum. That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
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If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town. Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic. So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
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vote: eevee
Why?
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vote: eevee
Why?
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
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vote: eevee
Why?
Oops. I didn't realize I was at the end of a page. Never mind!
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1. I learned that on N1. So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum. That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.
Although.. no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1. I learned that on N1. So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum. That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.
Although.. no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.
True. To get you lynched as town acting scummy. That's how we catch scum. Lynching the scummy ones. It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance." I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.
Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:
scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb
Those last two are probably equal. So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum. You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way. And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.
That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance." It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.
So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything. But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
This really looks like a bad case to me, Ash. You're starting at the top with the assumption "Eevee is scum", showing how Eevee's actions make sense given Eevee is scum, and then using that to say "Well, I guess Eevee is scum!" It really seems like you're starting your case by assuming your conclusion, and that's not convincing to me.
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1. I learned that on N1. So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum. That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.
Although.. no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.
True. To get you lynched as town acting scummy. That's how we catch scum. Lynching the scummy ones. It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
Yeah, but isn't that evidence of underposting being easy to jump on for scum more than evidence of underposting meaning I'm more likely to be scum?
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance." I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.
Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:
scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb
Those last two are probably equal. So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum. You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way. And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.
That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance." It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.
So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything. But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
This logic is sound though, I see what you mean now. I do think it's in town's interest to try to protect us from derails and arguments that aren't helping (or even mislynches, although maybe I should have stayed back longer to see if the spirit-lynch would start to gain traction?).
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I think this is the 5th game in a row where I've been called out for being scummy for not posting enough. I think it's worth pointing out I was town in four of them, and in the fifth the only person who thought that was my scum partners ashersky. It's like guys, even if I undercontribute day 1, you know I won't just disappear on you, I'll come back and be a meaningful voice. I just feel that in a game this size, cluttering the thread if you don't feel like you have anything meaningful to say is not necessary, we have enough voices and the discussion flows also without me. I know it might be optimal if I reread heavily and forced myself into being a bigger voice, but ultimately we play these games for fun, and you know, different styles can be fun. I don't feel I'm being super detrimental to town with my play as it is!
Guys, remember that, for the bolded section, I did NOT know that Eevee was my scum partner on D1. I learned that on N1. So I thought it was scummy, and he was scum, and I didn't know he was scum. That helps prove my point, not disprove it.
Ha! That's true.
Although.. no wait what? You were scum in that game and thought I was town! You've used the same argument as scum before to get me lynched.
True. To get you lynched as town acting scummy. That's how we catch scum. Lynching the scummy ones. It's just helpful to scum when townies are scummy.
Yeah, but isn't that evidence of underposting being easy to jump on for scum more than evidence of underposting meaning I'm more likely to be scum?
Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
So, you still agree it's a pro-town stance? I think it's questionable that me taking a pro-town stance that was "too easy" was what caused you to vote for me. Like, I can understand (not agree) if you think underposting is what scum Eevee does, but you didn't vote me when I underposted, you voted me when I was starting to get back to the swing of things.
No, I don't agree that your stance is a "pro-town stance." I don't know where you got that phrase or idea.
Here are the possibilities, in order of likelihood:
scum!Eevee and town!sb
scum!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and scum!sb
town!Eevee and town!sb
Those last two are probably equal. So, for scum!Eevee, it is in your interest to defend sb for towncred if he's town or partner protection if he's scum. You know that sb will generally be read as town, so it's a safe call for you either way. And the reasoning you used was not game-related, came from no quotes, and could have been posted in any game.
That's not a "pro-town stance" so much as a "pro-Eevee stance." It was a win-win for you, and you went for it.
So, like, this isn't a HUGE case or anything. But combined with underposting Eevee and slightly argumentative Eevee and seems kinda like Mean Girls Eevee, it was enough to vote.
This logic is sound though, I see what you mean now. I do think it's in town's interest to try to protect us from derails and arguments that aren't helping (or even mislynches, although maybe I should have stayed back longer to see if the spirit-lynch would start to gain traction?).
Wait if you think he's town, why would you consider staying back?
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Mail-Mi: To see who scummily jumps aboard. The same reason Ash voted for Raerae despite having no semblance of a case, pretty much.
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There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.
But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
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Wait if you think he's town, why would you consider staying back?
To see what people think of the case / who joins it and who doesn't! Best case scenario would be that people would start piling on him, and I could whiteknight him before with my incredible rhetorical skills and we would have information on who were willing to lynch him and maybe find mafia (this is all assuming he is indeed town - and he isn't even a townread for me, I just think what TA accused him of doesnt make him any more likely to be mafia.) Even mislynching spirit wouldn't be THAT bad as long as the information on why the case is bad is out there in time, as then when spirit flips town it's useful to look at who thought what.
This is obviously all assuming I'm right about TA's case against spirit not being valid, which I'm not 100% on.
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There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.
But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
Exactly. Mail-mi is screaming scum to me here, but he was screaming scum the last day of shakespeare (I thought he was scum and EFHW a serial killer). I pretty much permanently detect mail-mi as scummy, which makes my scumreads on him worth less than that read would be worth on anyone else.
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Nkirbit, high five!
Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
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Nkirbit, high five!
Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
He's probably town to me b/cuz if you and him were scum partners, I think he'd be distancing himself from you.
Of course, if your town, then I have no idea.
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I mean, maybe I'm pushing the case on Eevee. But it's all we're really got for now, and it makes for good discussion.
mail-mi's sheeping was scummy, for sure, but I'm starting to come around to the "that's just mail-mi" thing.
It's not like anyone's in danger of getting lynched right now. We're talking, pushing suspicions, etc. I do that with votes, others might not.
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yay new voices!
I think sb is town. I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum. I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say.
X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself. Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
mail-mi seems scummy as usual. This meta will work out well for him whenever he is scum, if he isn't now. Or if he's not scum now maybe he'll seem less scummy when he is.
nkirbit seems his usual self, as does Eevee.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
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What do you think of Ashersky, EFHW?
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Right now I think he's town. Usually I'm tormented by thinking he's scum and knowing he probably isn't, so I'm not sure what my town read on him means!
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Alright, so re-reading here's what I got:
Not much.
Most of what has happened has been theory talk that I have a hard time getting any scum-hunting material out of. Then comes ash calling out raerae, and shareye calling out TA. One of these two gets much more attention than the other one: Ash's claim on raerae. Shareye brings this up in post #394. He claims that
And then the raerae/ash thing really took off; people were begging ash to say why, people were joining his wagon, voting for ash because he was being bull-headed, and all that jazz. But I recall only Twisted asking with any persistence about my vote on him.
If one of our "cases" was on scum, and one on town, I think I'd expect a bit more activity regarding both of the votes. If scum found their partner getting too much attention, they'd bring up the other person. And if scum saw everyone piling on the town-wagon, they'd focus on their partner and try to buy some cred that way.
The way the reactions fell, it seems more possible that raerae/TA are of the same alignment.
now, I think the reason only TA asked about shraeye's case on him was that it was about TA, and shraeye didn't really push his case. As I recall, ash hinted about information on raerae in about every other post he made (and he made quite a few). Shraeye, mentions it once and doesn't bring it up much after that. This may not have been the case, I just remember from my read-through, I can remember ash's firm stance on raerae, but I can't remember shraeye even saying anything about TA. That tells me he did not make his case very prominent (or not as prominent as TA). So this make me think that raerae is town. Scum could easily have jumped on shraeye's TA claim and tried to take some heat off of raerae, but they didn't. now, I'm not sure about the cred buying by scum. This early in the game? I'm not sure. So I'm not throwing out the idea that TA is scum, but I do think raerae is town off of this
Something quite concerning that I saw that nobody picked up on was something to do with xerion:
I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.
I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Thinking about it, so far, I'm not getting very strong reads on anyone. so for me at this moment, I'm not ready to lynch anyone. If I had to lynch anyone right now, I don't think I could. I would vote no-lynch right now if it was the deadline. But it isn't so I'll give it more time. I didn't quite get up to the point of spiritbears meltdown (if I can call it that). i kinda skimmed it and don't really know the details, but from what I remember from my quick read of it is that ti seems like town spiritbears. From mean girls, when spiritbears is under pressure he doesn't get too happy. He seems all towny and stuff until you try to call him out then he gets very defensive. normally I'd see that as scummy, but the spiritbears meta I saw in mean girls disagrees. I want to read more, but I wanted to get my current thoughts out there. I'll do more tomorrow (or possibly tonight, we'll see)
By the way: I'm also going to have limited access from saturday to saturday next week. I'll be traveling both saturdays and won't have much access those days, but I should have more access during the week. Thanks!
PPE: Regarding my post bloating with theory talk: I'm sorry, that's just who I am. I can grasp theory and it's easier for me to discuss. I'm not that great at reading people. Especially day 1 when there really isn't that much to go on. It's not that interesting to me. Later, once I have more information to go on I can contribute more fully. I know, nobody likes this, but I just find D1 just so hard to go on. so much hand waving and pointing fingers with very very little evidence. It seems mostly about meta and past experience. Neither of which I have.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Which part? I'm not accusing nkirbit, but this also seems like a really easy way to seem like town.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
Can you back that up? Because I just think that's not true.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
Can you back that up? Because I just think that's not true.
I haven't noticed anything like that either, just a noticeable amount of agreeing with me.
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Well, twice. And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
Can you back that up? Because I just think that's not true.
Just this game....name one read that you were in the minority on? Can you name even one time you took an unpopular stand?...in the other game you were just mislynched in it was caused by your refusal to buck the majority...even when they wanted to lunch you! I really think it's a hallmark of your play...which puts you in a safe position usually...but not always
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Vote Count 1.6
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (1) EFHW
chairs (1) raerae
Eevee (2) ashersky, mail-mi
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
Not Voting: (7) Eevee, AHoppy, theorel, nkirbit, chairs, shraeye, Twistedarcher.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
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I was in the minority for finding information in Ahoppy's post. I don't even have to go back 10 posts to answer that question.
I'm not going to comment on B2B, but I disagree with that as well.
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I was in the minority for finding information in Ahoppy's post. I don't even have to go back 10 posts to answer that question.
I'm not going to comment on B2B, but I disagree with that as well.
That's a "hard" or "independent" stand???
This is why we don't understand each other...
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I don't believe there is any nee info there....
If there's one thing nk does is try and sound like he's always on the majority side....don't ever expect him to take a hard or independent stand
Can you back that up? Because I just think that's not true.
Just this game....name one read that you were in the minority on? Can you name even one time you took an unpopular stand?...in the other game you were just mislynched in it was caused by your refusal to buck the majority...even when they wanted to lunch you! I really think it's a hallmark of your play...which puts you in a safe position usually...but not always
also, he has been strangely silent in this game. I haven't read the other game(s) he has played in other than mean girls, but in mean girls, he was quite vocal D1. He did some good scumhunting work (as I recall) and here, he's been absent. so what's up?
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Besides, there was no new information in my post. I pieced together information I had gathered from earlier posts. And read EFHW's post from a different angle. An angle I think makes more sense. What in my post do you think was "new"?
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I was quite lurky early in this game because I was up against the wall for most of B2B while this game was going on, and the game here had devolved into theory discussion that was mostly uninteresting to me. Now I'm done with that game, and this game has moved onto case-making, so I'm more active!
And boy I wish I could talk about B2B!
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I'm not sure he's been absent. I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
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Besides, there was no new information in my post. I pieced together information I had gathered from earlier posts. And read EFHW's post from a different angle. An angle I think makes more sense. What in my post do you think was "new"?
It's not groundbreaking info or anything. And I'm going to decline pointing it out, because I don't think we should be talking about it.
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Well, twice. And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks ::) :D
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
I'm not sure he's been absent. I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
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Ahop eas speculating nk. You don't need to treat that like gospel.
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Well, twice. And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks ::) :D
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
I'm not sure he's been absent. I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
I push on everyone....I never for one second said i found nk scummy
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Well, twice. And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks ::) :D
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
I'm not sure he's been absent. I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
I push on everyone....I never for one second said i found nk scummy
That was literally like 5 posts later. Ah well.
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Alright. I can accept that. Now that you have brought to light theory in my post, the exact thing I was called out for too much of, what do you think of my reads on other people?
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Well, twice. And one of those statements was that mail-mi regularly comes off as scummy, which is one of the least controversial positions possible.
Well gee thanks ::) :D
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
I'm not sure he's been absent. I don't think that's quite fair....probably the huge chunks of theory talk bury his contributions. Which I think have been on par...
Wait what? Weren't you just pushing a bit on nkirbit?
And vote: mail-mi
Eevee's lurking was not your MAIN reason for voting, given you had unvoted that awhile ago and voted to sheep my case. Can't just skip around like that man, and misrepresenting yourself doesn't help.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Eevee buddying? There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I saw it.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Eevee buddying? There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
Why are you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if Eevee is scum" perspective? Like, I find it weird how anti-me you are being right now.
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SB: I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today. But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really. But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:
1. I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare. I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.
2. I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14. This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac. Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?
3. Why am I doing this?
Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong. And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Eevee buddying? There's an attempt to get back to his town meta.
Why are you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if Eevee is scum" perspective? Like, I find it weird how anti-me you are being right now.
Why aren't you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if {insert player here} perspective"? The only thing I know is I am town. I have to suspect everyone else. I just happen to know you well when you are scum.
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I saw it.
We may not even have seen the same thing! But there's a chance scum learned something new, and that's bad!
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I don't think it's really easy at all, I didn't even realize there was any new info, so it certainly isn't obvious.
I saw it.
We may not even have seen the same thing! But there's a chance scum learned something new, and that's bad!
What I saw was bad information for scum to have.
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Yes, I would agree.
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Alright. I can accept that. Now that you have brought to light theory in my post, the exact thing I was called out for too much of, what do you think of my reads on other people?
I agree the thing you pointed out about xerion is problematic. I'm not ready to call it scummy. But it is strange.
Of course I disagree that I was overly defensive--would I have like to handle it differently, sure...but I am who I am. And when I feel I'm not getting treated fairly I react...I'm sure Ta would agree I was overly defensive
I'd like to see more of your reads on ash, eevee and nk though...
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SB: I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today. But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really. But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:
1. I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare. I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.
2. I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14. This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac. Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?
3. Why am I doing this?
Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong. And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2
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Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
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On Mail-Mi. Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.
1. Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive. Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2. Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3. Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes. Whatever.
4. Mail-Mi unvotes
5. Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in. Eevee had come back and been active by this point. When questioned about the vote, we see this post:
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
A little bit different, to be sure.
Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"? And why not, if you don't?
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Nkirbit, high five!
Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
He's probably town to me b/cuz if you and him were scum partners, I think he'd be distancing himself from you.
Of course, if your town, then I have no idea.
This post is very weird now that we know all it took for his scum read on me to disappear was a couple of not very special posts.
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SB: I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today. But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really. But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:
1. I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare. I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.
2. I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14. This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac. Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?
3. Why am I doing this?
Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong. And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2
I know you were okay with Insomniac too. But I didn't make the decision thinking "Oh, I'm doing this because SB wanted me to."
Why are you doing this, anyway? What point are you trying to prove? That I'm not capable of independent thought? Sounds like a great ordeal to undertake!
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Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure? It isn't like you are in any danger.
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On Mail-Mi. Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.
1. Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive. Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2. Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3. Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes. Whatever.
4. Mail-Mi unvotes
5. Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in. Eevee had come back and been active by this point. When questioned about the vote, we see this post:
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
A little bit different, to be sure.
Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"? And why not, if you don't?
You left out the part of the conversation where mail-mi gets asked about it again and all he does is quote part of my case.
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Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure? It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.
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Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure? It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.
That's fine.
But instead of reacting so much to what I'm saying about you, you ought to be saying:
"man, ash really seems focused on me so far this game, and I think undeservedly. We should note that as we watch his interactions. Could definitely seem scummy."
For what it's worth, I think if you are scum this game, you are playing scum badly. You were wicked good in Mean Girls. If I was your partner here, I'd be trying to deflect this conversation elsewhere. Only Ahoppy has done that so far.
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SB: I agree I haven't made any "hard" or "independent" stands today. But it's still relatively early Day1, and I've been actively contributing for like, 5 hours, really. But if you want to look at "hard" and "independent" reads I've made in the past go look:
1. I pushed hard for lynching Eevee over Sudgy day 3 of Shakespeare. I was obviously wrong, and eventually came around, and am glad I did, but pushing for Eevee was by no means the popular opinion.
2. I decided to lynch Insomniac over Eevee day 1 in ZM14. This was after asking who wanted to lynch Eevee, and literally every single town member said they were in favor of it, but I moved us to Insomniac. Wouldn't the popular thing be to lynch Eevee?
3. Why am I doing this?
Look, you're entitled to your opinion, I just strongly believe it's wrong. And a little bit insulting, if I'm being honest, and didn't really have anything to do with anything that was going on.
You might want to rethink number 2
I know you were okay with Insomniac too. But I didn't make the decision thinking "Oh, I'm doing this because SB wanted me to."
Why are you doing this, anyway? What point are you trying to prove? That I'm not capable of independent thought? Sounds like a great ordeal to undertake!
Ok with it+!?!?! We jumped off our main read, and you and TA asked ME eevee or insom. I chose insom and you agreed...
Braises. Im not doing anything...you Str the one running with it. Sounds like i hit à nerve. Sorry if you found it insulting. I literally do see you like a peacemaker role...someone that likes consensus
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Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!
It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
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(Besides). (You are the...)
Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you
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(Besides). (You are the...)
Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you
You always have a scum read on me. Except when I was scum!
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Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!
It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
No worries. Time to tunnel mail-mi now.
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I do admit your tunnels are an asset. Glad I passed the test!
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(Besides). (You are the...)
Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you
You always have a scum read on me. Except when I was scum!
I am never going to live that down ......
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(Besides). (You are the...)
Oh and severe---don't worry, I'll hold done that scum read on ash for you
You always have a scum read on me. Except when I was scum!
I am never going to live that down ......
You'll catch me some day.
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(Responding to it...it's a ways back, but it's directed towards me, I'll get to the stuff in between later)
So, in the original post at some point while writing it, I had included "assuming 3 scum, Pr(2 randomly selected players are town)~60%". And this converted to "given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum" at some point.
TwistedArcher questioned my "numbers" so I assumed I had actually included the 60% and then explained where it came from (i.e. (10/13)^2). (this looks really odd now, because I make the first mention of the 60% in that reply) Anyways, this is why I didn't mention the 3 scum assumption...I had in my mind already made it explicit. I will make it explicit now at any rate, because it's annoying saying if 3, if 2, if 4 every time. I'm assuming there are 3 scum in this game or 3 mafia + SK. SK-hunting is worthless (until late-game), so I will only be looking for the 3 mafia. Any and all computations will assume 3 mafia, and pretend like they're the only possible scum.
This was a quick and dirty calculation. As noted, I not only failed to leave myself out of the equation I forgot to not use replacement. As a quasi-mathematician (I have a degree in math, but don't work in it) the second of those is far FAR more egregious than the first. The first is a matter of perspective, the second is a matter of accuracy. To me, the fact I left out the second makes it obvious I wasn't being particular enough to leave out the first. Actually, I don't see this objectively, if I had said I did (9/12)^2 you would feel better about it? Because then I was removing myself from the calculation? I'm doubtful that there are many people that would take the approach of computing the probability of 2 random players being scum that would remove themselves and fail to remove the first town player. But that's the bit you're objecting to.
Anyways, I think that takes care of your main 2 objections, but I did want to address the "focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye"" part. The calculation was half-a-sentence in a multi-paragraph post, and I didn't even bother to leave it in there only the result (which is true regardless). I would hardly say I was focused on calculating anything. I was focused on interpreting information. spiritbears' interaction with the efhw-shraeye pairing can be interpreted in two conflicting ways. One makes him more likely town, the other more likely scum (note: neither is in any manner conclusive). I needed to choose which interpretation to use, and so used math to decide.
Anyways, I'm moving on from this, because y'know actual scumhunting is more important than this calculation.
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Alright, so topics of conversation:
twistedArcher-spiritbears: Somebody suggested this is spiritbears' meta. In this case of argument, twisted seemed to be reasonable, and spirit lost his cool. It could be that he's nervous about something, or it could be how he is. Others say it's how he is, I'll take their word for it.
ashersky-eevee: Fun times. Eevee feels like town-Eevee to me here. But, I've never played with scum-Eevee...so maybe that's invalid. I dunno, I have a hard time agreeing with ashersky for whatever reason (this is simply true in general, we just think very differently perhaps). Anyways, no surprise I don't agree with him here.
ashersky-mail-mi. The two players that everyone always finds scummy. I think ashersky has the stronger position here. But...mail-mi is always scummy. It's so universal I know it without having played with him. But, obvious scum is obvious (as opposed to obvious scum is too obvious must be town, for those that haven't heard me use that phrase before).
nkirbit-spiritbears: this is a pointless argument. It's not even a scum-read for either of you, it's just a statement of perception from one player.
Happy to see Ahoppy, nkirbit, and Eevee participating more. Even if it means that there were like 3 pages of posts yesterday afternoon while I was away.
I'm hopeful that Ahoppy can catch up, because I think more useful things have been happening more recently than where his post indicates his reading stopped.
I need to look back and see what I didn't remember, then I'll try to adjust reads.
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@Ahoppy: you asked for opinions on your reads. But, you have very little clear reads in your summary post. At the end you note that your reads are so weak you'd be happy to no lynch.
Your reads seem like: 1. raerae likelier town. (ash' constant bringing up of scumminess, breaking up a fight). 2. xeiron slightly scummy (unconcern over lynching PRs).
Is that accurate? Do you have other reads? (I think mostly you just need to finish catching up, because several players are starting to distinguish themselves now).
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We could use a game plan. Soft deadline in 4 days? Where are shraerae, anyway?
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Okay, I'm trying to do better at this. Reads again (from memory this time):
Eevee: 23 (gut-based. His actual contributions are reading towny, and remind me a bit of when we mislynched him in DS9 for undercontributing.)
ashersky: ? hmm...he's pushing a lot. Trying to start discussions. I'll go town-22
Ahoppy: 25. Very little, but what's there is decent. He needs to post more, before I can decide.
shraeye: 27. (hard to quantify. I feel like he's more aggressive this game. His contributions seem specifically targeted to stir trouble.)
spiritbears: 27. (Defensiveness is apparently normal, but it does degrade having a town "feel" about him for me. He seems to be in and around trouble, which could be happenstance, or it could be scum trying to move towards town lynches.)
efhw: 24. (Why do I feel this way? Might be the interjection against xeiron on my behalf?)
xeiron: 28. (Underposting, although I don't know what's normal for him, so this may be invalid. I'm having difficulty attributing anything to him other than saying that I wasn't scumhunting because of half a sentence in a large post attempting to analyze a situation.)
raerae: 20. (I'd like to hear more from her. Of what she's said, she seems simultaneously sarcastic and reasonable, this is what I would expect from town raerae. (caveat I don't know scum raerae))
mail-mi: 26. (Voting patterns regarding Eevee were weird...trying to temper with "known to seem scummy")
twistedArcher: 22. (He's talking a lot, and encouraging discussion. Seems townie)
nkirbit: 23. (hmm...why do I feel this way? Maybe because he's agreeing with Eevee? Maybe his feeling attacked over not being on his own? I dunno)
chairs: 22. (seems like newer town, having trouble getting into the groove of things, and making random faux-pas. (also, I don't think his claim was really all that terrible, I mean paper is pretty innocuous as an item))
Hey cool, I remembered everybody. So, tl;dr:
scum to town
xeiron
shraeye
spiritbears
mail-mi
Ahoppy
efhw
nkirbit
Eevee
ashersky
twistedarcher
chairs
raerae
(I even broke the ties above)
I should vote for someone I suppose...let me check the vote counts and figure out who.
PPE: I thought soft deadline was July 3rd? (I think 2-3 people liked that date at least, maybe more)
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K, I'm going to vote: shraeye, and see where that goes.
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I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
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58quote author=ashersky link=topic=8002.msg262828#msg262828 date=1372425012]
We could use a game plan. Soft deadline in 4 days? Where are shraerae, anyway?
[/quote]
That sounds good to me
@Theo/ahop
=-I agree with Theo about the incompleteness of your reads ahop. Which is why I asked for more info‰
I think the stuff you pointed out about x is the most interesting
However, your no-lynch ides sortie me...is this not the second time youve brought it up?
I generally disagree withnolynch (reslly as a policy ) fi77tnd it scummy. (Never been scum, so I don't know how I would view it if I wss).. --but since you have time to complete you resds, , perhaps you could address this and explain how it'd not scummy...or maybe you agree it is scummy?
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Yep, second no lynch suggestion. All I'm saying is I'm not opposed to it. Is it scummy? Maybe. But I don't want to hamstring us D1 by killing off a potentially key town member. Basically I don't like D1, and I don't get much info out of it. But I'll probably get more once I fully catch up.
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I am as anti no-lynch as it is possible to be. I will lynch someone I believe to be town at deadline if necessary to get a lynch through.
I do not vote for my strongest scum-read in general. I use my vote as a tool, and always voting for my strongest scum-read I do not believe to be an effective use of that tool. In this instance, I think voting for shraeye is better.
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On Mail-Mi. Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.
1. Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive. Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2. Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3. Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes. Whatever.
4. Mail-Mi unvotes
5. Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in. Eevee had come back and been active by this point. When questioned about the vote, we see this post:
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
A little bit different, to be sure.
Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"? And why not, if you don't?
No, because he's back from Lurk land and he's looking like good ol' town Eever now.
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Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!
It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
No worries. Time to tunnel mail-mi now.
I'll do what I can to prove I'm town. You may begin.
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I'm catching up again. You all have this nasty habit of putting up like 5 new pages when I'm trying to clear my head. I'm up to #554 so far, and need to post some of my thoughts thusfar.
Here are two things I agree with.
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
I am feeling this way too, especially the last part; this just doesn't seem like behavior that a presence-conscious mafia would put out there. I think spirit's frustration is extreme, but also genuine.
What do you think about me agreeing with Eevee, ash?
Agreeing with Eevee on what? He hasn't done anything to agree with. That's my current issue with Eevee.
This feels like D1 of Mean Girls Eevee. I think SB made that point, too.
Here, I'm pretty sure that ashersky was using "agreeing with what?" to make a point, because it should have been clear from context that he was talking about agreeing with Eevee regarding TA's position on spiritbears. At the end of the day, I'm most suspicious of the people who have had minimal presence. The thing is, everybody is searching for a day1 case that isn't 'weaksauce'. Generally these are really hard to find, unless scum make serious errors. So I think scum is most likely to be the set of people making minimal waves, or calculated waves. There have been counter-examples to this, so when I see something bigger, it's good to have a gauge of how genuine it feels.
But the set of people who have existed, but not memorably (at least to me) is Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, Eevee, mail-mi. It's not a question of posting a lot or 'undersposting' based on one's meta. Eevee is right that he has had much fewer posts in recent games and has been called scummy for 'underposting' a lot. But still, him disagreeing with Twisted about spirit is the only thing I remember from Eevee.
Eevee gives a set of pro-tips for reading him
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
But I don't agree entirely with these. I'm recalling loudEevee who was town from Mafia Noir, another RMM game. I always take personal-metas with like 8 grains of salt. My idea of an Eevee-meta is much more like ashersky says
But yes, smaller presence generally reads as scum Eevee.
So I guess this post ended up being pretty Eevee-related, so I'll throw in Eevee's question to the others:
Nkirbit, high five!
Others, what do we think of this fine gentleman seeming to always be there to agree with me when I make the effort to post?
I don't think too much of it; nkirbit is still nullread for me. Like Twisted, he has a habit of commenting on everything that's going on, and sometimes he agrees, sometimes he disagrees.
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Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:
What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote. I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'. In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread. So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.
So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote. I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron
The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron. Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons. Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player? And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this). I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though. If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.
Links to their reactions:
I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for. Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.
However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote.
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea. But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up. It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.
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X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself. Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post. I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position. But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.
Vote: xeiron
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Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:
What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote. I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'. In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread. So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.
So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote. I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron... I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for. Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.
However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote....
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.
I'm finding myself thinking I should hold back re: reactions to Shraeye, but that also seems like a very bad idea. So I'm going to say what I think. I feel like this post is quite a bit less substantial than it is presented to be, and therefore it seems scummy. I am also going to say why.
The first part doesn't say anything new from the last time he made the point about TA and raerae. I also disagree with the logic, which could mean we just disagree but it feels like it could be a "pseudo-argument" designed to link TA with raerae as town (or raerae with TA).
The part about Ash, X and mail-mi also doesn't say anything new, except he interprets X's "compelling case" as jokey but doesn't say what he thinks that would imply.
I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit. nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy. And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
Which part? I'm not accusing nkirbit, but this also seems like a really easy way to seem like town.
I agree with EfHW again here. something like this is a really easy thing to post and 'seem townie'. Yuma is famous for making pro-town suggestions as scum.
Unrelated thought #2
Why aren't you approaching everything from a "hmm, could this be true if {insert player here} perspective"? The only thing I know is I am town. I have to suspect everyone else. I just happen to know you well when you are scum.
Also, this is a really good scumhunting tactic, especially if you consider players as both town/scum. I'm reading pot-stirring, hardworking ashersky as town.
Unrelated thought #3
We could use a game plan. Soft deadline in 4 days? Where are shraerae, anyway?
As raerae pointed out before, we are V/LA with no access from at least 7/4 - 7/8. Right now her house is filled with boxes for the moving. Hectic lives=less availability.
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This may not have been the case, I just remember from my read-through, I can remember ash's firm stance on raerae, but I can't remember shraeye even saying anything about TA. That tells me he did not make his case very prominent (or not as prominent as TA). So this make me think that raerae is town. Scum could easily have jumped on shraeye's TA claim and tried to take some heat off of raerae, but they didn't. now, I'm not sure about the cred buying by scum. This early in the game? I'm not sure. So I'm not throwing out the idea that TA is scum, but I do think raerae is town off of this
Ah, I reread through that section, and you are right here. I was remembering my vote on TA and the stuff around it as being more prominent, but probably because I was the one who wrote it. Looking back, ashersky's really did pop out more than mine on TA. But again, if raerae were scum, her partners could have jumped over to give more attention to Twisted's case (really whether or not he was scum, I'm thinking...it would be better to have attention spread amongt your scum partners than focusing it all on one of them). So i think raerae is more likely to be town based on these interactions.
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The first part doesn't say anything new from the last time he made the point about TA and raerae. I also disagree with the logic, which could mean we just disagree but it feels like it could be a "pseudo-argument" designed to link TA with raerae as town (or raerae with TA).
The part about Ash, X and mail-mi also doesn't say anything new, except he interprets X's "compelling case" as jokey but doesn't say what he thinks that would imply.
I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit. nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy. And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
It didn't say anything new regarding attention to TA/raerae, because at that time, nobody had commented on anything. Right after typing thoses posts, I kept reading through the thread, starting with AHoppy's #555, which is the first time I saw anybody else consider that point. As I said above, I think his interpretation of it is more accurate.
I find tension-breaking jokes to be scummy, I thought that was clear from context.
I think nkirbit was mentioning people who didn't react to ash/raerae at all in that paragraph of his post.
Connections are very important to remember, because recently there has been a lot of terrible lynches (on day2,3,etc) that I think are predicated on "what is happening scummy right now"-mentality, instead of "hey we lynched this one mafia member, let's look to see who had odd interactions with him"-mentality. I htink the latter mentality is much better, and that we have been drifting away from it since the days when i started mafia here back around Mafia IX.
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Shraeye is correct that I did not list sb's reaction. I simply didn't see it, but you're right, it was there and I should not have put him in the category that I did.
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I also don't follow the point about sb and nkirbit. nkirbit was listing scummy reactions to Ash, and unless I'm missing something, sb's reaction doesn't seem scummy. And what connections are you pointing out to remember for later?
Connections are very important to remember, because recently there has been a lot of terrible lynches (on day2,3,etc) that I think are predicated on "what is happening scummy right now"-mentality, instead of "hey we lynched this one mafia member, let's look to see who had odd interactions with him"-mentality. I htink the latter mentality is much better, and that we have been drifting away from it since the days when i started mafia here back around Mafia IX.
Ok, but what are the connections implied in the sb-nkirbit-ash interaction? I guess it's moot now, since nk's omission seems to have been an oversight, but I would like to understand anyhow.
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I pointed out several players for not discussing the ash-raerae "case". I called these players scummy, and incorrectly put sb on the list when he should not have been. The biggest implication was that if I were scum, I could be manipulating the interaction based on SB's alignment, by saying something like "hey, I suspected this guy who was scum, so I can't be scum".
But yeah, me simply not seeing his reaction is what actually happened!
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X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself. Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post. I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position. But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.
Vote: xeiron
I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.
I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.
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I am confused xeiron; you're saying that it looked like theorel accidently forgot himself in a scumslip moment, and then say that in his post answering your case that he confirms that you are right...but still you are satisfied with his answer?? That what it seems like your post says to me, but that's just absurd, please explain what you mean.
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Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight. I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think
Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me. Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him. But this felt different. Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents.
Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own.
- I don't need to explain, it's all there
I don't understand the stubbornness. Just answer the question. If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote. Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me". Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1. Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more. TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally. This just wasn't what TA was doing.
With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.
I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night. Sorry this is taking so long.
Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday. I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.
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Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
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Things seem to be really slowing down here. What would help those who haven't voted/posted reads? Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, chairs, mail-mi, Twistedarcher currently don't have votes down. I'm interested in seeing if we have some trends developing or if we are all over the place.
re: items and all that, it seems to be dropped for the moment, which is fine. I suggest we do nothing now and if Day 2 most people were able to make useful combinations then we don't need to worry about it, but if there is a lot of frustration then we should revisit announcing innocuous items that we want/have.
What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?
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Alright, so I reread the Spiritbears/Twistedarcher debacle, and I think that is the only reread I'm going to get in tonight. I need an early bedtime... anyways on to what I think
Overall, I think spiritbears comes out of this looking pretty scummy to me. Yes I know, earlier I said that reactionary spiritbears is town spiritbears, at least from my one experience with him. But this felt different. Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents.
Spiritbears' response (paraphrasing from notes I made during my reread):
- you have a bunch of fluffed up nothing making me look scummy
- TA thinks SB is scummy because his reads are different from his own.
- I don't need to explain, it's all there
I don't understand the stubbornness. Just answer the question. If he had a legitimate scumread on shraeye, he could easily have reproduced the case/his thought process on his vote. Or he could just say "He feels scummier to me". Which to me, would be a perfectly valid argument D1. Weak, but considering he thought shraeye's case was weak, I would think he had more. TA remains calm throughout this whole case, while spiritbears thinks he is attacking him personally. This just wasn't what TA was doing.
With SB avoiding the question, never really giving a satisfactory answer and being uncooperative I see him as pretty scummy coming out of this.
I can't put a vote down yet because I still have a couple of pages to get through, but I will hopefully get that done tomorrow night. Sorry this is taking so long.
Reminder: I'll be V/LA until next Saturday. I'll make a post in the V/LA thread.
I didn't avoid it. I did answer. This is exactly why that crappy takedown by TA pissed me off...because people that can't read are just going to sheep it and day "geez sb, how could you be so scummy"
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And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
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Just did a super daunting reread of chairs (all 9ish posts...) and came up with diddly. Is he still v/la? Chairs almost took a stance on shraeye in the early game but then backed off as soon as the EFHW/shraeye thing started up claiming he was mostly just joking with his vote anyway. I think it's good to note that he never explained the part of that joke that wasn't a vote. Just leaving wiggle room for later? He then goes on to barely talk about theory for a couple posts then, when nobody snapped up on his carefully laid breadcrumb, he claimed. As history has shown us, the person who claims out of the blue and unpressured gets a stupid amount of towncred and is (in recent memory anyway) usually scum. Seeing as how this is his first game with us, I'm willing to cut a little slack but not without an explanation so...chairs, ya around?
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And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
Don't. You. Dare.
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Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.
1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better. All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly. Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye.
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game. He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.
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Vote Count 1.7
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (1) shraeye
Not Voting: (6) Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, chairs, Twistedarcher, mail-mi.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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And BS TO YOUR LOUSY claim that TA wasnt attacking me....maybe its that you dont read carefully or at all...but TA said my coming down on the efhw side of the argument was not a legitmste position. And that only scum would see it that way...he spent he entire time tunneling me claiming every single one of my positions were not legitimate.
But noooo that's not an attack huh?
F this
If this is how you want to play I'll full claim and get out of your way..
Can you give me a quote then? I reread your ddiscussion with TA, and I didn't think he attacked you. But I easily could have missed it.
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I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.
raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.
I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
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That being said, assuming scum has items just as well, chairs could have had the same thoughts as scum.
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I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.
raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.
I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
You said you disagree about chairs and claiming suggesting scum but then you said such claims have always been scum. Is that what you meant?
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sb, you are being aggressive to the point where I think you are breaching the civility pledge. TA sometimes can sound like his opinion is the only one that makes sense, but I'm sure he wasn't meaning to offend you, and Ahoppy was quite civil in his comments. People are reading you as scummy because of this. I don't know if it means that, but it's hard to overlook.
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1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
Could you show posts for this? I haven't noticed it, but AHoppy until recently with spirit has sortof been a background character in my mind.
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What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?
Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious. REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action. Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
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What do people think about a Monday soft deadline instead of Wed?
Given how undecided people seem, Monday may be too ambitious. REally, everybody needs to start putting votes down and generating some serious action. Otherwise we'll just be spinning wheels with trying to make Day1 cases that everybody shoots down for being 'weak', which almost every case will be, since not too much of substance has gone by.
Just trying to find a way to jumpstart things here. Maybe the lull means people have said what they have to say and now they need to tell us where they stand.
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Vote: TA
I don't have a good case to build. He just feels "off" here.
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Actually, no, vote:SB.
I really, really dislike how aggressive he's being here, and I don't have a really strong read on anyone else. This vote is mainly for the aggressiveness.
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I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.
raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum.
I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
Where's the disagreement then, Eevee? I'm confused.
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shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory. EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post. (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Then nothing for a bit but this...
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.
Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy.
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I agree with raerae that Ahoppy has a scummy feel about him. I also noticed his appearing right after being called out for being absent - that strongly suggests lurking. The post she links but doesn't quote ...
... takes xeiron to task for saying it's ok to lynch someone with a power role b/c we all have pr's. Criticizing X for this is a really easy way to seem towny, just like "don't claim" and "remember we have a deadline". Then he is careless about his speculating. There is a long paragraph rehashing the Ash-raerae-Shraeye-TA thing, coming to the same conclusion as Shraeye. Then a bunch of stuff about how he hasn't read any farther and hopes to soon.
This is far from damning evidence, but from my perspective he's putting forth a pretty weak presence with very little contribution.
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AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did. I think his idea is a more logical conclusion. What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?
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AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did. I think his idea is a more logical conclusion. What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?
That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did. He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum. I don't know if that is more logical or not. It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too.
I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons. Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?). If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it.
Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon. I thought it was possible you were bussing TA. So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting.
I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
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Edit: I don't think she was
n't ever in any real danger ...
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5 people don't have votes down. How many are scum? Eevee, mail-mi, TA, Ahoppy, chairs.
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I think I'm gonna reread someone. Suggestions?
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I think I'm gonna reread someone. Suggestions?
Make the decision yourself. I actually think that this is kind of a scummy question, in that scum doesn't really care who they make a case on, as long as there's a case. And when that person flips town (if you make a good case on them, and really, it's Day1, I don't think there are any cases that blow away other cases) you can say "Hey, it was just random I made a case on this person, someone else picked it for me!"
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Just did a super daunting reread of chairs (all 9ish posts...) and came up with diddly. Is he still v/la? Chairs almost took a stance on shraeye in the early game but then backed off as soon as the EFHW/shraeye thing started up claiming he was mostly just joking with his vote anyway. I think it's good to note that he never explained the part of that joke that wasn't a vote. Just leaving wiggle room for later? He then goes on to barely talk about theory for a couple posts then, when nobody snapped up on his carefully laid breadcrumb, he claimed. As history has shown us, the person who claims out of the blue and unpressured gets a stupid amount of towncred and is (in recent memory anyway) usually scum. Seeing as how this is his first game with us, I'm willing to cut a little slack but not without an explanation so...chairs, ya around?
Did Chairs ever actually explain why he claimed? Did we even ask him? Seems like a good question to get asked and answered.
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Okay, I'm going to reread xeiron and all of his 9 whopping posts.
Yay for a new game.
First post, included for completeness (also because I don't want to take out a whole 1/9th of content.)
vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
I don't know if this vote is RVS or if he thinks ash is soft claiming an investigative role, and since ash has claimed that it was just to gauge reactions, and xeiron has yet to unvote, pretty scummy.
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
This is a wierd post that I don't get. Just because I don't understand it, slight scum read.
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.
I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.
I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
Theory talk, null read.
We should not itemclaim any more, because itemclaiming is roleclaiming. That is, roleclaiming of our future roles. The OP says items combination do make sense and should not be easy to guess. Meaning if I say I have a first aid kit, but wish for medicine it is not hard to figure out I am/can become a doctor. We should avoid claiming roles at this point.
I think the best way to maximize powerroles is for everyone to send items they don't nead to their biggest townread.
I like the conclusion he comes to, so townish read here.
I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.
Null.
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I don't like the way he worded No. 2. "How can you be sure that there is exactly three scum?" can be interpreted more than one way. 1) there could be more than three scum, or the more incriminating 2) How do you know there's three scum (on my scum team)? One is more curious, one is more inquisitive (if you get what I mean). Slight scum read here.
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town. I can see that, although I disagree with it.
2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think. I would guess 3 scum.
I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.
1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.
2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.
In this case, that's spiritbears. And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire. It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town. Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you. OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate. That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle. Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral. Say scumScore=26).
Null read here.
X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself. Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post. I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position. But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.
Vote: xeiron
I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.
I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.
And this is his last post. You don't seem to be planning on pushing anything further.
Now, I know xeiron always looks scummy. But 9 posts in 27 pages?!?!?!?! And I think the scummy outweighs the towny, and he really needs to get back here. vote: xeiron.
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I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
So...your reads have changed since your popsquiz?
Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
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I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
So...your reads have changed since your popsquiz?
Most scummy: Shraeye, possibly TA
Occasionally think they may be scum: raerae, Ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee (mostly for not posting)
Town read: sb, Theorel
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
I guess so, but that wasn't much of a scum read before. I didn't have any reason to think you were scum then, either, I just said that I found myself thinking it more than once.
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Vote Count 1.8
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (1) spiritbears
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (1) nkirbit
Not Voting: (4) Eevee, AHoppy, chairs, Twistedarcher.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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I definitely didn't think TA attacked spirit either. I saw it as a "I find this thing you've done scummy, can you explain it?" sort of an inquiry.
raerae, I've had the same feelings about ta, can't explain them though. Disagree about chairs in that I think unpressured and a little unfortunate claims (especially day 1) have always been scum town
I can think of only one scum fake claim that was for no direct benefit (yuma in mean girls) and that certainly wasn't universally believed.
Where's the disagreement then, Eevee? I'm confused.
Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum. They've always always been town this far!
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Oh, meant to be
scum town.
... maybe everyone spots the typo by now anyways.
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Oh, meant to be scum town.
... maybe everyone spots the typo by now anyways.
I'm still not sure what you're saying! Haha. Are you saying:
Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum town. They've always always been town this far!
That doesn't make any sense! Do you want to say
Oh, sorry. Fixed above! Seriously, I challenge you to present me a day 1 "too eager" claim that was scum town. They've always always been town scum this far!
I'm just not sure :P
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Haha oh my.
I disagree with raerae. She is saying she thinks claims like the one chairs made are usually scum trying to get easy towncred, I challenge her to find even one unpressured "overeager" day 1 claim that was not just what it seems like - a townie that got a little bit too jumpy.
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If chairs were scum, he would either be:
1) Revealing the actual item he has. This seems really bad, as town gets new info from this.
2) Revealing an item that he doesn't have. He picks paper, as it's you know, a common item that would make sense to be in this game. But this risks the chance of someone counter-claiming paper, so I don't think he would do this.
I just really think that Chairs is town because of his claim. This isn't a regular game where a mafia can just claim VT and have no risk of being counterclaimed or revealing info. It's risky for scum to claim this early, and I especially don't think a new scum would take that risk.
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I agree, although I don't see how revealing he has paper is THAT bad if he is scum. But that's a bad discussion to have.
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If chairs were scum, he would either be:
1) Revealing the actual item he has. This seems really bad, as town gets new info from this.
2) Revealing an item that he doesn't have. He picks paper, as it's you know, a common item that would make sense to be in this game. But this risks the chance of someone counter-claiming paper, so I don't think he would do this.
I just really think that Chairs is town because of his claim. This isn't a regular game where a mafia can just claim VT and have no risk of being counterclaimed or revealing info. It's risky for scum to claim this early, and I especially don't think a new scum would take that risk.
I agree, Chairs is probably town. Similarily, I think Ashersky is town for this one.
@ theorel: I think the three item thing came from Role PMs ( at least that's where I have it .)
I would note that the three item thing was in a PM sent to all players (I assume, given BCC) regarding how N0 was going. The PM mentioned scum QTs locking, which is why I think scum got it as well as town. So I would count that as public knowledge.
I do not think scum would know whether all players got the same PM, or if the scum QT-locking part were added only for scum players.
The deduction Ashersky does above is easy though, if he is town.
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I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately. I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum.
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Hey! Hey, X! You appear to have missed this!
Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
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AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did. I think his idea is a more logical conclusion. What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?
That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did. He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum. I don't know if that is more logical or not. It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too.
I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons. Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?). If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it.
Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon. I thought it was possible you were bussing TA. So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting.
I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
I keep reading this and I can't figure out what you're conclusion is. That raerae probably isn't scum? Because at some point, you're calling an entire scum triple of raerae, me, Twisted. Why does the fact that the wagon happened early in the game affect your read on raerae?
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
What brought you to this conclusion?
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
Why do you think one or other is likely to be scum?
I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately. I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum.
Well, PPS with the VT claim was town in Volt's waffle game, I was town with the stupid secret chamber game in eHalc's RMM 1 or 2.
Obviously it's different later, every claim starts to be pressured as they need to make sure they don't corner themselves with being too passive.
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
If you think they were arguing only to detract from meaningful conversation, then are you saying they're both scum?
Man, Eevee just PPE'd me, and raerae too. Seriously, you need to explain this more.
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Hey! Hey, X! You appear to have missed this!
Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.
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Hey, I'm here. Sorry for my absence, just got really frustrated with this game so avoided it for a few days. Catching up now.
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Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I think this is an important point, but it actually speak more to the fact that Xeiron is scummy, rather than Theorel being scummy.
I think that 3 scum in 13 players is a perfectly fine assumption, it'd be my guess as well.
I read Xeiron's comment as possibly being "How do you know there's 3 of us???" rather than a more neutral phrasing of something such as "What makes you think there's 3 scum?" The phrase "know for sure", to me, means that Theorel confirmed something that Xeiron would know is 100% true. He's not asking why he's guessing it - he's asking how he knows it.
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
I get what Ash is saying here, but I don't get this. He's saying that Eevee is scummy for making an opinion, but he's saying here that it's an opinion that someone could come to as either town or scum. So why does Eevee get his vote / scumread for this?
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I honestly can't remember any unforced D1 claims lately. I can remember lots of unforced claims though and most of them are scum.
In Banker's Beware I kept track of map-claiming. Town players was systematicly claiming more and earlier in that game. Scum, espesially you, made almost no claims. And the one among scum who did claim, Archetype, managed to scumslip.
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Hey! Hey, X! You appear to have missed this!
Hey, X, why ya still voting for me?
Because I think it is a good place as any to keep my vote. I see no reason to unvote just to unvote.
And while you are not my top scumread, you are not a townread either.
So, in summary, you are not voting for your top scumread. I'm sorry, who is that again?
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If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town. Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic. So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
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Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about??? You can't give yourself a townread??
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There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.
But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.
He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.
(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
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Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give [c]myself[/c]him a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about??? You can't give yourself a townread??
Oops
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Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myselfhim a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
What the heck are you talking about??? You can't give yourself a townread??
Oops
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yay new voices!
I think sb is town. I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum. I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say.
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
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Fixed
yay new voices!
I think sb is town. I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum. I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say.
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
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AHoppy's paragraph with ash/rae, shray/TA comes to a different conclusion than I originally did. I think his idea is a more logical conclusion. What do you think about AHoppy's conclusion, EFHW?
That's true, he doesn't find TA towny as result of this train of thought, whereas you did. He thinks scum would distract from scum!raerae even if it meant bussing another scum. I don't know if that is more logical or not. It only leaves one person, the 3rd scum (assuming 3 for convenience), to do the jumping on the wagon, but I guess scum!raerae could have too.
I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons. Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?). If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it.
Of course by Ahoppy's modification of your logic, hypothetically scum could buss [is it 1 's' or 2?] another scum to distract from the scum!raerae wagon. I thought it was possible you were bussing TA. So from that angle, the scenario doesn't clear raerae since you could have been doing the distracting.
I don't actually have any reason to think raerae is scum so far and I don't think she wasn't ever in any real danger for scum to need to take measures to protect her.
I keep reading this and I can't figure out what you're conclusion is. That raerae probably isn't scum? Because at some point, you're calling an entire scum triple of raerae, me, Twisted. Why does the fact that the wagon happened early in the game affect your read on raerae?
I don't HAVE any conclusion from the way the two cases developed. I don't find it that informative.
I don't think scum would do diversionary tactics early in the game because no one is in any real danger early in the game. raerae was not in any real danger and therefore diversion wasn't really needed. I also think jumping on wagons as a diversion is risky early in the game because it is really obvious. So the lack of people jumping on TA's wagon is null to me.
I don't think you are all three scum, I'm saying that your logic as modified by Ahoppy's could equally lead to that conclusion.
I independently don't have any reason to see raerae as scum, unrelated to these scenarios.
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Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.
I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
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yay new voices!
I think sb is town. I don't think Ashersky is at all convinced that Eevee is scum. I think TA probably is scum, I'm sad to say.
Why, and why are you sad to say it?
Why is a hard question and is the reason I'm not pushing a case yet. It's an impression that I haven't made time to make concrete yet. Sad to say b/c you contribute a lot when you are town and it sad not to have that and to see that talent turned to evil ;). And if I'm wrong and I get you mislynched, that would also be sad.
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There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.
But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.
He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.
(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.
I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?
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Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.
1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better. All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly. Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye.
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game. He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.
I made a very, very, very concerted effort to stay calm in the "discussion" when it became clear that it could go downhill. I I chose my words carefully and made sure what I was saying was in no way personal once I started getting told by SB that they were. If I wasn't calm I would have very possibly lost it.
I see further down this page that Eevee and nkirbit agree that I'm "off". I wish I could defend myself but thats a claim I can't really refute...
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(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?
Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.
I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed. Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.
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TA, I completely agree with Eevee re: mail-mi...hasn't he only been scum once or maybe twice? His playstyle makes him a great mislynch target. Is that what you're doing with this?
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There is very little meat to the case against me, but I understand that's by default as I haven't really done much at all. I do think ashersky trying to push it, even if it's very weak, is very protown, as it helped (might help in the future, again I'm probably posting this prematurely) to create interactions, for example I once again find mail-mi scummier for being willing to sheep it.
But meh, we've been suspecting each other with mail-mi in so many games recently, I guess his playing style just always seems really scummy to me. So, I don't like the way he voted me, but I realize it's less of a scum tell for him as he always does thinks I find scummy as town too.
Another post by Eevee that I think is scummy.
He's saying that Ashersky's case was pro-town because it allowed us to gain interactions. However, the only interaction that we gained was mail-mi's voting Eevee, which Eevee immediately discredits because it's mail-mi.
(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
Basically, this is a post with no information, and comes out with a town-read on Ashersky. I don't think that Eevee has come out with a town read on every case that's been pushed weakly. I don't remember similar town-reads by Eevee for Shraeye on me, Ashersky on Raerae, or me on SB. So why is there a town read in this case? There have been many instances of a player pushing a weak case in this D1, and I don't know why this is the ONLY one that Eevee declares as "pro-town and extremely helpful".
Well, even if we didn't get much this time (maybe because I reacted to it the way I did), it still was a good attempt at getting the game forward. Like, even if it's frustrating to have him build crap cases on me, ultimately I see the value of those for the game.
I was under the impression mail-mi has been mislynched / wrongfully suspected as town quite continuously lately, but maybe I'm wrong?
What do you think of the weak cases by Shraeye and the other one by Ash? Do you draw the same conclusion?
He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)
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No, I don't think mail-mi is most likely to be scum, I wouldn't support his lynch. But let me finish my re-read then I'll get you my reads!
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Where the heck is Ash?
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I see that mail-mi has made the exact point on Xeiron that I just made. It's a point I agree with, and I also generally agree with most of what he's said in this case. Xeiron's been lurking, as well. Scum read on Xeiron and town read on mail-mi -- he has been playing more actively and getting more opinions out than he's normally been doing, and normal mail-mi to me is scum mail-mi (2/3 games)
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
Why this conclusion? And why me over SB?
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I do think Chairs is town because of the claim - it's not something I see coming from scum, but it's something I see coming from town. I'm a bit concerned by his vote on me, which followed Raerae, Eevee, and nkirbit all agreeing they see me as "off", but I think it's more likely than not that he's town.
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He got mislynched last day of mean girls, but he DID survive until that point. Not sure of any other recent mislynches he's had, maybe bankers? (I didn't follow that one much)
In Shakespeare mail-mi was very scummy and town. He would have been mislynched if it weren't for raerae (>:(). He is being super-scummy here. I think he enjoys it! I've decided his play in general is no help in figuring out his alignment, and it's the final wagons or almost final but failed wagons for each day and POE that will determine my reads of him.
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Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th). Why call out just ash?
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Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th). Why call out just ash?
I remember him speaking least recently plus he's usually in the middle of this stuff.
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Actually, theorel's last post was very close to the timeframe of ash's last post. I think raerae picking ash out of those two shows a possible connection between raerae/theorel; I recall them also saying roughly the same thing in the wake of mine and EFHW's disagreement.
I won't judge my own participation, and leave that to others. I was trying to defuse the situation (from my perspective), so I would place my activity as scummy if one is scum, just as I do for raerae below.
raerae came in as the final "voice of reason" kind of redirecting to chairs with an anti-claiming vote, and being the first to say "hey, this is town v town". As mentioned before, if one is scum this is kind of scummy. Likely neither is scum, so then this is pro-town. Scum sometimes does pro-town things, but I'm inclined to grant players slightly more town-reads as the do pro-town things. I mean ultimately if scum does lots of pro-town things, it benefits town.
Now that I look that up, I see theorel making a sort of hedgy read on raerae, involving the calculations of whether fights are most likely town-town or not. Yeah, I definitely see a possible connection there. Theorel is a null read for me right now, but he's on the list of "background players" that I'd be willing to lynch. Raerae is being in-your-face and asking all the questions that I want to be asking as well; so townread on her. So I have no huge scumread on them, but like nkirbit/spiritbears from before, if either flips scum we need to remember this in the future.
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(btw, I think the reason we all always find mail-mi scummy is that he's been scum a LOT lately. It has less to do with his playstyle, I think.)
So do you also find mail-mi scummy this game? Or are you just vaguely defending him here?
Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
This is something I think scum would very rarely think of saying, so a town read on nkirbit!
I disagree with this being a pro-town post by Nkirbit. If I'm scum, and I missed something in Ahoppy's post, you bet I'm not going back to read Ahoppy's post in detail if I missed something or skimmed Ahoppy's post. Nkirbit's basically providing a roadmap to scum on where to find useful information.
I don't think it's a scummy post by Nkirbit, it gives me a null read -- but I think Eevee giving town credit for it is weird. But that may just be me having a different opinion on Nkirbit's post, so also null on Eevee for this. But I don't think this should be giving Nkirbit huge town credit by any stretch.
Exactly, I'm realizing that both of those posts (nkirbit's original observation, and Eevee stating categorically that this is town) end up drawing attention to AHoppy's post, and definitely benefit scum much more than just letting things slip by unnoticed. Either of them could just be highlighting things for their partners.
I agree that I probably drew more attention to Ahoppy's post than necessary, but I disagree that this is necessarily a scummy thing. If I'm scum, and I want to draw attention to something in that post, don't I just go into the scum QT tonight and post about it? Why does scum need to draw attention to a post like this? It's not like I was giving AHoppy a scumread for his leaked info.
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That's understandable, great and a good defense. :)
I don't know, I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for. No one is standing out to me (not by actually standing out or by being too far back).
nkirbit and to an extent ashersky I read towny.
raerae and TA would maaayybe be scumreads, but I hate putting this out if I can't back them out in any way.
Others, I'm just very null on. So, town, know that I'm here and will eventually contribute with my vote, I just don't know where to put it yet. I do want a lynch to happen, but I'd rather not just randomly fire my vote somewhere.
PPE13, forgot to hit send.. going to read them after posting!
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On Ahoppy: I'm not sure what to think here. It is true that he spent half the game talking exclusively about theory, and only started to give reads when pressured to do so (and even then, they weren't that extensive). This could be scummy, but this could also be a towny who's simply more comfortable with theory talk than scumhunting. He was town in Mean Girls, and from memory didn't engage in much scumhunting at all. His play has, in certain ways, been scummy here, but I don't think I can really say he has played differently than he did in Mean Girls, and I'm not sure what to think of that. Probably not a townread, but not the scumread I had earlier on second thought.
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My reads:
Raerae - towny
mail-mi - towny
Scum to town:
Spiritbears -- Okay, I still think that Spiritbears is very possibly scum. He has still yet to provide a good answer to the EFHW/Shraeye question, and he's reacted a lot to the case. The only defense I've heard, from several people, is that Spiritbears' emotional reaction means that he's probably town.
The thing is...we've never seen Spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen a reaction like this before. I feel the back and forth has detracted from the case a fair amount, but the fact is, I've seen nothing to lessen my scum read, and the reaction doesn't read towny to me, either.
Xeiron -- There's several things here. His sheeping of Ash onto Raerae was suspicious. His accusation and statement of "How do you know there's 3 scum" at Theorel is suspicious. He's mega-lurking. All of these things push me towards scum-Xeiron.
Ahoppy -- I agree with Raerae's post where Ahoppy's been very quick to react to his lurking. More importantly, though, is that he hasn't really been lurking, but that he's active, and talking about theory, but just not getting his reads out there until prompted. I don't see any original scum-hunting coming from Ahoppy. Until he starts doing this, I'll have a scummier read on him.
Eevee -- for several of the reasons I recently listed.
EFHW - slightly scummy. She's been active and helpful, much of which was theory early on, though. I found her view on Shraeye, implying that he's likely scum, a bit too certain for that early in D1. There's also the fact that SB, who I think is scum, has been sheeping her reads. If SB flips scum, I would look very closely here.
Theorel -- I'm finding it really hard to read Theorel. He's not around much, so he always posts "catch up" posts, which are so, so hard for me to read, and they are so much easier for scum to pick and choose what they put in there. But town does the same thing, as well. I thought his theory was fine, but equally likely from town or scum, as well. I just don't have anything here, so null.
Nkirbit -- I'm having a similar problem with nkirbit that I do with Theorel. Early on, a lot of catch up posts that I don't get a scum read from but that I don't get a town read from, either. He's been more active lately, but I do agree with spiritbears that he tends to make posts that are very pro-town, but easy pro-town posts to make (the two that stick out are calling Ahoppy out for revealing info, and calling mail-mi out for asking who he should re-read. These both strike me as so obvious and so inarguably correct that I get a null read from them, if that makes any sense). I get nothing from the argument with SB on either side. Null here as well.
Ashersky -- I do this his pushing and prodding on Raerae on Eevee was designed to get information, and catch scum. The problem is, I don't know if it was designed to catch scum, or catch scummy townies. I get a slight town read, but not a large one.
Shraeye - Slight town, as well. Similar to Ashersky. I just find it unlikely that scum!shraeye would choose to push that weak of a case on me that early. I found him townier than EFHW in their argument, and while I'm not convinced there's a scum there, I think if there's 1, it's more likely EFHW.
Chairs -- I just don't think scum claims their item like that. If he's scum, he had a pregame QT, and I just think he'd have been told "Don't do that!!!" Could be a gambit, but I think that's more unlikely.
mail-mi -- I liked his re-read of Xeiron, and he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people. The sheeping is there, but it probably always will be, regardless of alignment. Some scummy stuff, but like everyone says, mail-mi is scummy, as scum or town. Everytime he's been scum, though, there's been HUGE red flags, and I haven't seen any HUGE red flags, just slightly scummy stuff. Given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game, I really do think hes town.
Raerae -- Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.
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I would have indeed mislynched mail-mi in shakespeare as well had raerae not saved me from it.
Other than that, he has only played samurais and ninjas where he was scum? Maybe some others, I'm not sure.
About the other weak cases.. they just didn't do a whole lot for me either way. The arguments weren't easy to follow / I didn't find myself siding with either party, it just seemed like picking on very minor things to get the game going. I didn't make any reads out of those, sorry.
(The first line of the post above seems confusing now, it was about TA's explanation about sounding weird during his debate with spiritbears.)
I think calling ash out with semi-strong language is not very needed, dude is allowed to go a day without posting!
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Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th). Why call out just ash?
Isn't it reasonable to call out Ash simply for being the most active player in the group? You would expect him to be here now, because he's been here all game. The others haven't been inactive, but not active to the degree Ash has been, so his absence now is the most noticeable.
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Oh yes, Vote: Spiritbears . I just think he's more than likely scum. Nothing about his defense has made me think otherwise.
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If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.
Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.
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If I had to vote for someone, it would be TwistedArcher.
Something about his reads doesn't sit right with me, he seems a bit too sure about things I myself am completely lost on.
Such as? I can't defend myself when all you people constantly say is that I don't seem right!
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
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Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
I took this self-description by Eevee as joking. If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum. And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.
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Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
I took this self-description by Eevee as joking. If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum. And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.
Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
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What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
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Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
I took this self-description by Eevee as joking. If he really acted that way, he'd be lynched really fast every time he was scum. And anyone doing something pro-town will always be questioned as faking it.
Is it joking? Maybe I'm missing it but I completely didnt think it was joking at all. I thought that was what Eevee thought his meta was, and he's putting it out there, either to help town read him as town, or as scum planning to manipulate it. But either way, I think he's being serious, and that's what he thinks his meta is.
TA has it right here.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
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What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
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What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Barring obvious scum reads, I'd tend to agree with this. But I think that spirit is closer to that category than you all think he is.
Can someone give me a reason they think spiritbears is towny other than "I don't think scum would react that emotionally and that much"? I don't give that town cred, and I've yet to see another reason why people thinks he's towny (or that I remember).
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list. I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list. Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground. All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why! The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why! And why does that make Shraeye scummy?
I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier. Can you defend him being in the foreground? What has he actually contributed?
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
Are we reading the same game? Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude. Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.
Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like
PPE: Or if Eevee would like
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
If that's the case, yes, but I mean more "nothing has made me think she's not town". I can go find specific examples if you'd like, your posts have made me believe that you're town and not scum most of the time.
Want me to go grab examples? Of course you'd believe I'm just forcing reads into them, so it's kinda pointless, but I can still do it if you'd like
PPE: Or if Eevee would like
I'll let Eevee make that call. I don't think it would sway me much.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
Are we reading the same game? Ash, shraeye, EFHW, SB, myself to some extent have all been extra-vocal and a little bit rude. Why is Ash the only one you see as being bold?
As I said, most of the arguments you guys have been involved in haven't really done much for me. If I feel, despite the tone, that they've been a tad willy-nilly, I don't count it as "something scum isn't likely to do".
Also, for me it's not just being out there and posting a lot. For some people super mega lurking can be a huge town tell because they simply wouldn't do it as scum.
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What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).
So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
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What I didn't like about mail-mi's xeiron-case was that was that first he was like "who should I reread", then he just seemingly randomly chose Xeiron and conveniently found him scummy enough to vote.
Wouldn't he just not ask the question if he already had the answer in mind?
It just makes the case seem less legitimate, because it seems like mail-mi randomly stumbled upon it. Scum is less concerned who we lynch than town (they have 10 good targets, we have 3).
So do you think mail-mi is scummy?
I do, but what else is new.. I don't think the behavior is extremely scummy for him, he is just very hard to read once you realize you always instinctively think he is scummy.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.
I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.
I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list. I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list. Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground. All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why! The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why! And why does that make Shraeye scummy?
I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier. Can you defend him being in the foreground? What has he actually contributed?
I agree with this point, and would like someone who has said they don't think SB is scum to answer.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.
I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.
I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
Well, the scum read kind of IS that you feel weird for me, as I said I don't like how poorly I'm able to explain it. But, I once before had a similar scum read on you (luckily as an IC then so I didn't need to be able to explain it) - and it turned out to be correct, so I think until I find something better, I should listen to my gut here.
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
People questioned why Chairs came to the conclusion that one of the two are likely scum, but I don't think anyone asked:
Why did you pick TA as your vote rather than SB, Chairs? Was there a reason?
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Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling? I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either. I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
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Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Why is Spirit on your "foreground player" list. I agree with that characterization for EFHW, TA, raerae, ash, and you, but don't get why SB is on that list. Apart from him getting overly aggressive and in a few fights, I don't think he's in the foreground. All I know about his opinions is that he thinks you're slightly scummy and EFHW towny for your fight.. I don't even know why! The best reason I have is that he "finds himself agreeing with EFHW".. but why! And why does that make Shraeye scummy?
I just think that this characterization of SB is odd, and I would put it on par with my incorrectly classifying him earlier. Can you defend him being in the foreground? What has he actually contributed?
Being in the foreground isn't really a question of "what have you contributed today". It's a "did you put yourself in a place where you are highly visible and therefore likely to be blown up at?" I think scum is willing to "contribute" quite a lot, but very rarely are willing to place themselves in the second group.
Does this answer your question as well, Twisted?
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Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
I know, and I horribly misjudged EVERYTHING in shakespeare (which might actually be why I'm so unable to form strong opinions know, seriously I sucked so bad in that game).
Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling? I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either. I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..
Maybe we should do rereads on the people in the background to see who fits the scum narrative the best. Mail-mi did xeiron already, but he is another guy who just always seems scummy to me, and much like mail-mi, his scumminess seems the "same" in this game, at least on surface.
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I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?
If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.
We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.
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Eevee, would you be willing to lynch Day1 based on a gut feeling? I have the same feeling, but don't think I would either. I agree with Shraeye.. unless we have a good reason to lynch someone in the forefront, we should lynch someone in the background.
Well, I wouldn't be willing to nolynch, so..
Would you be willing to lynch TA Day1, based solely on a gut feeling? As opposed to other lynches we have today?
I don't think that calling any Day1 lynch based on a gut feeling is correct, either. We have reasons to lynch Xeiron (calling out Theorel's math was weird, sheeping onto raerae was weird), and Ahoppy (lurky, only posts theory until called out to not). Those aren't necessarily correct, and it's very very likely that at least one of those would be a mislynch, but those wouldn't be lynches based on a gut feeling.
Lynching TA right now would be mostly based on a gut feeling, from what I'm seeing from you and raerae. Would you be willing to do that?
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Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so. He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.
Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you. He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well. I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.
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If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.
How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?
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I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?
If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.
We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.
Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells? This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.
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Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so. He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.
Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you. He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well. I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.
Took me about 5 reads to realize you were talking about Spiritbears, and not me!
I know he reacted to Ashersky's vote, and thought Ash was scummy for it. But it didn't strike me as being something that was really putting himself out there, either. I'll go re-read it and double check.
The sharp reaction to Ahoppy I believe falls under the same reaction as the reaction to my case. It was simply Ahoppy restating my case, and asking for the same answers I was asking for. So this shouldn't count as something separate.
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Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
My meta-read on Twisted is that he jumps to conclusions pretty fast, it seems to me, though he is willing to back down and change his mind when somebody presents a reason to do so. He can be pretty stubborn at times, though.
Also, about Twisted's take on spiritbears (above), he's reacted to more people than just you. He reacted to ashersky's vote on raerae, and he reacted pretty sharply at AHoppy as well. I don't find him really fading into the background much at all.
His reaction to Ash's vote was to immediately vote Ash and continue to call him scummy for tunneling on raerae without a reason, right? That's about as easy to fake as it comes. I don't think it's scummy, but I don't think we should be not considering him for a lynch because of it.
The Ahoppy reaction was defensive, right?
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If I was very confident, I would be rallying to get people to agree with me. I don't know yet, I'm here to discuss and see how things develop.
How can someone be willing to back down and change his mind but also stubborn?
I guess it depends on how right he thinks he is. I attribute both of those qualities to him. He was pretty stubborn in finding you scummy in the SpecQT for Shakespear, I recall.
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Looking back, I don't get the impression that Spiritbears voting for Ashersky was a "loud" reaction, anymore than Mail-mi's view on Ashersky, X's vote on Raerae, etc. etc. etc.
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I think it answers Nkirbit's question more than mine, but kind of I think?
If I'm correct, what you're saying is that you don't think that Spiritbears, as scum, would react like that and make himself a target. I disagree with that point, though.
We've never seen spiritbears as scum, and we've never seen him react like this before, either. His "being highly visible" only took place until I had put him under suspicion, voted him, and made my case on him. I think it is simply the case here that a reaction was a scummy reaction, from scum, and that people are trying to read too deeply into it rather than looking at the most obvious explanation.
Um...the game that shall not be named ring any bells? This isn't the first time he's reacted this way to being under suspicion.
Oh, I never did read that one. He was town in that game?
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I just re-read it. He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game. Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations. So not quite the same as in this game.
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I just re-read it. He was not, but he was also not being accused in that game. Yuma was focused on Xeiron... the fight erupted when Yuma tried to defend himself from SB's accusations. So not quite the same as in this game.
Thanks, kermit. That wasn't my remembering at all. Thought that one was t vs. t. Well, I suppose my point is moot.
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It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.
I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.
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It was town vs town, it turned out, but SB did not think Yuma was town.
I'm not sure how much it even matters, though.
So it was town vs. town, SB & Yuma were both town? It matters because his reaction is the same here as there (only tempered a bit as this thread has yet to be locked) but TA insists on saying this is a new reaction and therefore scummy. This is false.
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Okay. You do have a point, but I don't think it automatically clears SB.. there are differences. But I think calling his reaction scummy isn't a good point anymore. If he's scummy for other reasons, we should still consider them.
That being said, I don't have any interest in going through and analyzing the differences between here and there anymore than I've already done. Even it if may help, I don't think it's something that's appropriate for the enjoyment of the game.
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Yay, there's lots to read. I'll be back in a few to catch up.
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Well, it looks like it's time to do a TA reread and see if our impressions of him as scummy are actually backed up by anything he has done. I'll work on that and get back to you.
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Vote Count 1.9
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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I'm not not voting!
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I'm not not voting!
Fixed!
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Where the heck is Ash?
Glad you missed me.
It was the weekend here, and the time difference. I'll catch up and respond to things.
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Yep, second no lynch suggestion. All I'm saying is I'm not opposed to it. Is it scummy? Maybe. But I don't want to hamstring us D1 by killing off a potentially key town member. Basically I don't like D1, and I don't get much info out of it. But I'll probably get more once I fully catch up.
I am as anti no-lynch as it is possible to be. I will lynch someone I believe to be town at deadline if necessary to get a lynch through.
I do not vote for my strongest scum-read in general. I use my vote as a tool, and always voting for my strongest scum-read I do not believe to be an effective use of that tool. In this instance, I think voting for shraeye is better.
A bit of no-lynch talk. I get zero reads from these sorts of suggestions, since it's impossible to know if not lynching D1 helps or hurts town or scum in an RMM game. So folks being on either side of this is pretty meaningless.
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Now some stuff about ash-raerae and shraeye/TA stuff from earlier:
What I noticed earlier was that there were a lot of reactions to ashersky's position on raerae, but very few people (Twisted, and then when I went back to check, I see that EFHW was the only other person who commented on it) paid any attention to my vote. I theorized before that if raerae/TA were 1scum 1 town, then scum would have made sure that equal attention was paid to both votes, so that they weren't seen as 'defending a partner' or 'distracting from the lynch'. In my opinion, scum tend to try to fall on separate sides of an argument, so that there is maximum dissension and confusion felt in the thread. So it still seems reasonable to see them as being of the same alignment.
So now I want to focus on the reactions to ahsersky's vote. I agree with nkirbit that two of the scummiest reactions were from mail-mi/xeiron
The "obviously scummy" reactions are from mail-mi and Xeiron. Xeiron sheeped onto the case for very, very weak reasons. Another player *may* be town and *may* have insinuated that they *may* have information about another player? And mail-mi votes for ash for bringing up a case without a good reason (in mail-mi's defense, Ash did do this). I'm not overly concerned with either of these reactions, though. If there were two players I would guess appearing obviously scummy in a case like this despite being town, it might just be those two.
Links to their reactions:
I think it was apparent that ashersky's vote was something beyond normal "tunnelvision" that mailmi votes ash for. Also xeiron's tongue-in-cheek joke about it being a "compelling case" adds jokiness to his already scummy sheeping.
However, nkirbit misses spiritbears reaction to ash's vote.
I really don't agree with the no lynch idea. But I don't fins you totally scummy for bringing it up. It's just not helpful I think
Ash--very scummy tunneling Rae Rae...and yes, trying to paint her legitimate position as overly scummy is just scummy imo. My ash vote turned out to be s good one...sticking with this one
I don't have a scumread on either of those players right now (nkirbit is null, and sb is town), but if eitehr were to flip scum, it's important to remember what players had odd connections to eachother.
Shraeye does some good analysis here. I do think it is interesting that my vote got more attention than shraeye's, but considering the Mean Girls performance is still fresh on a number of minds here, and shraeye is generally a more "under the radar" kind of player than I am, I think it isn't out of the ordinary.
The types of reactions to each case are important to note, which shraeye has done here.
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Other notes on other folks but this is mostly just on my mind and I finally have time to post but it's too late to make pretty and coherent thoughts so...this is what ya get.
1) I find it interesting that AHoppy jumps (man, that one will never get old) in whenever his name is mentioned.
2) SB actually seems a tad more defensive than he has in recent games but I don't know what to make of that.
3) In general, I wish I could read theorel better. All the way from read like we use in the game to read his posts more clearly. Kind of feel dumb reading that dude sometimes.
4) I don't love EFHW's tunnel action on shraeye.
5) Eevee, Ash, and shraeye are mysteries.
6) TA doesn't feel good to me this game. He stayed too calm in the "discussion" with SB and has been very non-committal and non-confrontational in every other instance this game.
These lists are useful, I think. They're easy to do, sure, but they do force raerae to make some statements. I don't know why I'm a mystery to her, though.
Agreed on the Theo point. He's impossible to read because he churns out information like a computer. He's the true Abed of f.ds mafia.
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Sorry
Had to step away to cool off
Mostly I'm sorry to ahop, you really didn't deserve that and I just don't have an excuse
I've probably messed this up bad and if you guys want me gone I'll step aside won't contest the lynch
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I think it was too early in the game for scum to get away with jumping on wagons. Those who did do that certainly got scrutiny for it -- xeiron for raerae, mail-mi for Ashersky (or was it Eevee?). If this set of circumstances happened later in the game I would be more open to seeing raerae as towny b/c of it.
I disagree with this statement. Early in the game is the easiest time to jump on lots of wagons. Any heat you get for it can be argued away as "man, it's early D1, there's so little to go on anyway."
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Haha oh my.
I disagree with raerae. She is saying she thinks claims like the one chairs made are usually scum trying to get easy towncred, I challenge her to find even one unpressured "overeager" day 1 claim that was not just what it seems like - a townie that got a little bit too jumpy.
Chairs's claim IS the kind scum uses to get easy towncred. BUT, I don't think that was the case in Chairs's claim, given the timing. It was 100% unneccessary and unhelpful to him and his team if he's scum.
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Shouldn't that make you think SB is town, then?
Maybe? But I'm voting for you.
Well if you vote for me because you think I'm scum going for easy towncred by defending sb, shouldn't you then be pretty sure sb is actually town?
It could be a bus, but yes, sb looks pretty towny out of all this. Your point that sb is more likely stubborn town than scum is sensible. I'm saying you could literally say that without reading a post.
I get what Ash is saying here, but I don't get this. He's saying that Eevee is scummy for making an opinion, but he's saying here that it's an opinion that someone could come to as either town or scum. So why does Eevee get his vote / scumread for this?
You get what I'm saying, but you don't get it? What?
I'm saying that Eevee made a post asserting an opinion that took zero risk. As I mentioned, he could say that about sb without reading a single post in the game. Yet it was a post/opinion that gains a bit of towncred. I think scum!Eevee definitely defends sb if sb is town, as a means of gaining towncred. It's an actual Eevee tactic.
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If Eevee is mafia, he knows sb is town. Protecting town!sb for town!cred is a known Eevee scum!tactic. So, given it is D1 and there is little to go on, that's enough for a vote at this point.
Here ya go!
There are literally dozens of examples of Eevee protecting a townie as town, do those count for anything? Should I start listing?
Pro tips to reading me: Town Eevee has town reads / disagrees on what's scummy. Scum Eevee has scum reads and pushes cases aggressively. Town Eevee defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid. Scum Eevee thinks everything is scummy and tries to get people lynched.
This is fishy. Eevee's posting a self-meta of himself, with the town meta following exactly what he's been doing this game. Clearly, he's aware of his metas, or at least what he believes are his metas, and if he's scum, he's going to be attempting to follow them. Basically, from this point, if I notice that Eevee "defends people when he thinks the accusations aren't valid", I can't give myself a town read based on that, because it could simply be him trying to manipulate his meta...
Both town and scum can self-refer to meta. I've done it as both. Generally a null read from self-meta meta.
The "how you should read me" instruction manual stuff is a bit over-the-top for scum. I don't see him risking it.
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No, I don't think mail-mi is most likely to be scum, I wouldn't support his lynch. But let me finish my re-read then I'll get you my reads!
It'd be nice if you could say why.
Since I said I was going to start tunneling him, he's asked who to re-read, decided on X, and then voted X. And that's it. He's sheepy mcsheeperson.
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Where the heck is Ash?
And theorel, and spiritbears, and chairs to a degree (he posted today, but the one before that was on June 26th). Why call out just ash?
I remember him speaking least recently plus he's usually in the middle of this stuff.
She's just trying to make you jealous.
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That's understandable, great and a good defense. :)
I don't know, I'm having a hard time deciding who to vote for. No one is standing out to me (not by actually standing out or by being too far back).
nkirbit and to an extent ashersky I read towny.
raerae and TA would maaayybe be scumreads, but I hate putting this out if I can't back them out in any way.
Others, I'm just very null on. So, town, know that I'm here and will eventually contribute with my vote, I just don't know where to put it yet. I do want a lynch to happen, but I'd rather not just randomly fire my vote somewhere.
PPE13, forgot to hit send.. going to read them after posting!
This is a classic town!Eevee post.
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My reads:
mail-mi -- I liked his re-read of Xeiron, and he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people. The sheeping is there, but it probably always will be, regardless of alignment. Some scummy stuff, but like everyone says, mail-mi is scummy, as scum or town. Everytime he's been scum, though, there's been HUGE red flags, and I haven't seen any HUGE red flags, just slightly scummy stuff. Given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game, I really do think hes town.
Raerae -- Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.
These two are the most problematic. The raerae bit got plenty of talk.
You honestly feel like mail-mi has been MORE active than usual? I'll do a post count soon, but man, I think you are way off base there.
What scum hunting has he done? One re-read, of Xeiron. That's it. He's sheeped a few votes, made a few one-liners. One of my posts at the end of my re-read was going to be "so what's the case on TA again?"
But your odd defense of mail-mi is freaking me out.
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The same two reads were the ones I found odd too, ash.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Oh look, someone else called you out on it. To quote you:
"...he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people...given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game..."
You think "mostly the Xeiron stuff" fits the description you gave in your read? "Catch people" sounds like a plural to me. What scumhunting? I get it, he did one re-read. WOOOOOO! No, really, where are you coming from, TA?
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I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Agree with shraeye here that we should be looking to lynch an acti-lurker.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
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TA, so, if I'm reading you correctly, I'm a default townread because you haven't found anything scummy? Have you found anything townie? If not, shouldn't I be a null-read?
This was indeed the read I wondered about the most. I'm probably vain, but the read on me surprised me as well. I don't think the stuff you are pointing out about me is very scummy at all.
All in all, it was a "good" list in that it didn't have many noninformative nullreads, but the amount of scumreads you've (you being TA) have already made and the certainty and ease with which you proclaimed them, didn't seem quite right to me.
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
I don't get this point. I have 12 people to read. Yes, most of them are town, but I'm looking at all of them. Why is it such a surprise to have 4-5 scum reads D1? Out of a pool of 12 suspects, that's not such a huge amount.
Because I'm struggling to find one! You've never seemed like the overly unreasonably confident type. (There are guys who - without any power role information - might say that they are 99% sure someone is scum. You've never been like that.)
The only read I'm even remotely close to 99% on is Spiritbears. And I'm not even 99% sure on him, of course. 99% sure is silly.
I don't get why this is generating a scum read for you. Other people have posted (or should post if they haven't) scum to town lists. Most of these lists will have several people with scum reads. Would it help you if I had gone back and said slight scum instead of scum for the people closer to the middle, such as EFHW and yourself? Ultimately though, I did something that several others have done, and it's leading to your scum read on me -- I am sure it's due to the fact that I was already "off" to you, and not to anything else.
I just don't get why this makes me a scum read, other than the fact that something is "off" on me.
TA is a bit more defensive here than we've seen previously. Noted.
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Eevee, fair enough. I hate that I can't dispute it :(
I know, and I horribly misjudged EVERYTHING in shakespeare (which might actually be why I'm so unable to form strong opinions know, seriously I sucked so bad in that game).
Whatever, Robz.
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TA is always foreground. You know, someone like yourself or TA just can't fall to the bottom of the pack and not get called out on it. For you guys, being loud and active is the norm. I guess you could argue TA is being too aggressive to be swcum, but I don't think that's the case. His behavior doesn't stand out to me, I think it's in line with his earlier play. Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
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Vote Count 1.9
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
And I'm caught up.
Nothing happened in all those pages to make me think mail-mi is a bad lynch. I do think raerae, shraeye, TA, and sb are not good D1 lynch options, so all y'all should choose someone else.
Let's lynch someone in the background. At least one scum is hiding there.
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Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
Except Robz. He's a meta-changer.
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Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
Except Robz. He's a meta-changer.
Well, he does have some consistencies, but that's true.
Another thing I feel strongly about that a lot of the changes in the way someone is playing or is perceived to be playing have nothing to do with alignment. If someone for example is very stressed in real life during a stretch in a game and you compare how he/she "feels" like during that period, it might be very different from some other game just due to them being in different mood all the time.
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Vote Count 1.9
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
And I'm caught up.
Nothing happened in all those pages to make me think mail-mi is a bad lynch. I do think raerae, shraeye, TA, and sb are not good D1 lynch options, so all y'all should choose someone else.
Let's lynch someone in the background. At least one scum is hiding there.
unvote
So exactly who do you think are the good options?
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Vote Count 1.9
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
And I'm caught up.
Nothing happened in all those pages to make me think mail-mi is a bad lynch. I do think raerae, shraeye, TA, and sb are not good D1 lynch options, so all y'all should choose someone else.
Let's lynch someone in the background. At least one scum is hiding there.
I agree with ash here that raerae, shraeye, and TA are not good lunches today. Also that we should lynch someone in the background.
However, I think SB might be a good lunch. Not as good as X, but still good.
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Vote Count 1.9
raerae (1) xeiron
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
chairs (1) raerae
Twistedarcher (3) spiritbears, chairs, Eevee
mail-mi (1) ashersky
xeiron (2) shraeye, mail-mi
spiritbears (2) nkirbit, Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
And I'm caught up.
Nothing happened in all those pages to make me think mail-mi is a bad lynch. I do think raerae, shraeye, TA, and sb are not good D1 lynch options, so all y'all should choose someone else.
Let's lynch someone in the background. At least one scum is hiding there.
I agree with ash here that raerae, shraeye, and TA are not good lunches today. Also that we should lynch someone in the background.
However, I think SB might be a good lunch. Not as good as X, but still good.
I'd much prefer to have you for lunch....
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
What do you think about TA?
Do you think Chairs's claim is more likely from town or scum?
Any read on nkirbit?
Note: I don't think you can prove you are town or scum by answering questions, but I think these are good topics to hear from you on.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
What do you think about TA?
Do you think Chairs's claim is more likely from town or scum?
Any read on nkirbit?
Note: I don't think you can prove you are town or scum by answering questions, but I think these are good topics to hear from you on.
TA: he may be feeling off to some people, but I get a town read from him.
Chairs: probably from newbie town.
Nkirbit: he's more of a null read.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
Something to respond to. Something about why u think I'm scum so I can explain it.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him? Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
Something to respond to. Something about why u think I'm scum so I can explain it.
Okay.
So, mail-mi generally has a scummy vibe. I empathize, because so do I. So I start off with a higher threshhold for scumminess for mail-mi. Like, watching him in Shakespeare, knowing he was town, but coming off scummy.
The things that have stuck out above and beyond normal mail-mi scumminess in this game include his reaction/vote when I played the raerae gambit; his annoyance and vote at my Mean Girls references; and what I saw as a contradiction when he voted/unvoted Eevee.
Since those things, mail-mi had the "who should I read/read Xeiron/vote Xeiron" thing and now he's actively trying to respond to my case on him.
Is this a super strong case? Nope. It's another D1 case. I don't feel terrible about it though, and think mail-mi has as good a chance of flipping scum as the other acti-lurkers. I think he has a better chance of flipping scum than the foregrounders.
So there are a few things you can respond to, mail-mi. Or not, since they aren't accusations so much as a list of things you did. But taken in total, I feel like it's a good enough case to lynch on for D1.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him? Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
That game was further, so more had happened which made it more legitimate then.
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My reads:
mail-mi -- I liked his re-read of Xeiron, and he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people. The sheeping is there, but it probably always will be, regardless of alignment. Some scummy stuff, but like everyone says, mail-mi is scummy, as scum or town. Everytime he's been scum, though, there's been HUGE red flags, and I haven't seen any HUGE red flags, just slightly scummy stuff. Given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game, I really do think hes town.
Raerae -- Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.
These two are the most problematic. The raerae bit got plenty of talk.
You honestly feel like mail-mi has been MORE active than usual? I'll do a post count soon, but man, I think you are way off base there.
What scum hunting has he done? One re-read, of Xeiron. That's it. He's sheeped a few votes, made a few one-liners. One of my posts at the end of my re-read was going to be "so what's the case on TA again?"
But your odd defense of mail-mi is freaking me out.
When is the last time that mail-mi, D1, went and made a case on a player unprovoked? I've never seen him do this.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Oh look, someone else called you out on it. To quote you:
"...he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people...given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game..."
You think "mostly the Xeiron stuff" fits the description you gave in your read? "Catch people" sounds like a plural to me. What scumhunting? I get it, he did one re-read. WOOOOOO! No, really, where are you coming from, TA?
No, like seriously, when he's been scum, he sheeped ALWAYS and NEVER did anything original. This is out of the norm for mail-mi to me, and to me, the norm for mail-mi is scum.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Oh look, someone else called you out on it. To quote you:
"...he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people...given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game..."
You think "mostly the Xeiron stuff" fits the description you gave in your read? "Catch people" sounds like a plural to me. What scumhunting? I get it, he did one re-read. WOOOOOO! No, really, where are you coming from, TA?
No, like seriously, when he's been scum, he sheeped ALWAYS and NEVER did anything original. This is out of the norm for mail-mi to me, and to me, the norm for mail-mi is scum.
I'll trust your judgement about what he does when he's scum, because I've never played with him as scum. But in both Shakespeare and Mean Girls, he also "sheeped ALWAYS and NEVER did anything original". Right?
So his is probably just mail-mi shifting his meta towards building more cases, which is GOOD. As to whether it's scummy or towny? I don't think it indicates anything. It's different from both his scum meta and town meta, so I don't think we can apply meta judgements here for one way or the other.
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TA is always foreground. You know, someone like yourself or TA just can't fall to the bottom of the pack and not get called out on it. For you guys, being loud and active is the norm. I guess you could argue TA is being too aggressive to be swcum, but I don't think that's the case. His behavior doesn't stand out to me, I think it's in line with his earlier play. Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
I still don't get how this is in line with you wanted to lynch a background player. I shouldn't count as a foreground player cause I'm always a foreground player? I don't get what you're saying here. Me being loud and active is the norm, yet my behavior doesn't stand out to you for this, yet my behavior is in line with my normal play (loud and active). Huh? Am I misreading this?
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
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TA, here's the issue with your argument:
You are saying "normal" mail-mi is sheepy and lacking in original scumhunting.
You are saying mail-mi is not being "normal" mail-mi.
For those two things to both be true, you'd need to show me how mail-mi is NOT sheeping and IS scumhunting.
You would fail in that endeavor, even counting the Xeiron re-read/case.
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
This is the other point I was going to make in response to TA. Even if you feel like mail-mi is "doing more" on D1 than usual, it's very well possible that mail-mi has taken the feedback he's gotten from other games and is adjusting accordingly. And he can do this as either scum or town.
I made this argument about myself in both Bankers and Mean Girls. I was town in one and scum in the other. Knowing that your own meta is hurting you and your team (town or scum) and adjusting accordingly in just normal play. I don't give towncred for it, but it also isn't scummy in and of itself.
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
No, mail-mi was scum in that game. His re-read that time I think was very directed by others' reads (which I immediately called him out on), and I don't think it was this time.
You all may be correct that this is simply a non-faction related movement in his gameplay, and I'd totally support that, but I do think his play here is making him more likely to be town.
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Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
No, mail-mi was scum in that game. His re-read that time I think was very directed by others' reads (which I immediately called him out on), and I don't think it was this time.
You all may be correct that this is simply a non-faction related movement in his gameplay, and I'd totally support that, but I do think his play here is making him more likely to be town.
Oh, yeah, you're right, he was scum. There was so much back and forth, I forgot where things ended up! But that argues against your townread, since he's behaving similarly to then.
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Quotefails!
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
This is the other point I was going to make in response to TA. Even if you feel like mail-mi is "doing more" on D1 than usual, it's very well possible that mail-mi has taken the feedback he's gotten from other games and is adjusting accordingly. And he can do this as either scum or town.
I made this argument about myself in both Bankers and Mean Girls. I was town in one and scum in the other. Knowing that your own meta is hurting you and your team (town or scum) and adjusting accordingly in just normal play. I don't give towncred for it, but it also isn't scummy in and of itself.
Okay. I guess the major difference here is that you, and several others, seem to be giving a scum-read for the "Who should I read / I went to read X", while I am giving it a townread. If he's scum, I'm pretty sure he waits for that answer, or just simply doesn't make the post in the first place. I also didn't get the impression that he was trying to force his views into his re-read, which I got last time -- I think his read on Xeiron comes out pretty genuine.
I have a good compare / contrast to his last re-read in Pirates, which he did as scum. The pirates re-read, to me, SCREAMED of scum trying to force an ingenuine view onto every post a player did. I didn't get ANY of that impression on the re-read, and instead saw this one as really genuine. I think the re-read 100% came from a town member, and not a scum member.
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TA is always foreground. You know, someone like yourself or TA just can't fall to the bottom of the pack and not get called out on it. For you guys, being loud and active is the norm. I guess you could argue TA is being too aggressive to be swcum, but I don't think that's the case. His behavior doesn't stand out to me, I think it's in line with his earlier play. Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
I still don't get how this is in line with you wanted to lynch a background player. I shouldn't count as a foreground player cause I'm always a foreground player? I don't get what you're saying here. Me being loud and active is the norm, yet my behavior doesn't stand out to you for this, yet my behavior is in line with my normal play (loud and active). Huh? Am I misreading this?
Well, I guess I see it a bit differently. What I mean is that people who do something that is bound to bring them to the spotlight are usually not good lynches. I guess TA is a bit like that, but seriously.. I think if we never ever lynch ash/yuma/TA day 1 because they always post so much, that's a bit of a problem too.. maybe?
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TA is always foreground. You know, someone like yourself or TA just can't fall to the bottom of the pack and not get called out on it. For you guys, being loud and active is the norm. I guess you could argue TA is being too aggressive to be swcum, but I don't think that's the case. His behavior doesn't stand out to me, I think it's in line with his earlier play. Scum tries to imitate their earlier play, they won't for example go from being a top poster to total lurk mode.
I still don't get how this is in line with you wanted to lynch a background player. I shouldn't count as a foreground player cause I'm always a foreground player? I don't get what you're saying here. Me being loud and active is the norm, yet my behavior doesn't stand out to you for this, yet my behavior is in line with my normal play (loud and active). Huh? Am I misreading this?
Well, I guess I see it a bit differently. What I mean is that people who do something that is bound to bring them to the spotlight are usually not good lynches. I guess TA is a bit like that, but seriously.. I think if we never ever lynch ash/yuma/TA day 1 because they always post so much, that's a bit of a problem too.. maybe?
It's okay, you guys lynch me D2 every game anyways :)
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Oh, yeah, you're right, he was scum. There was so much back and forth, I forgot where things ended up! But that argues against your townread, since he's behaving similarly to then.
I missed the last part of your post - I don't think his case on Eevee was directed by others. Eevee hadn't gotten more attention than anyone else -- it was before the whole claiming business came up.
But even if it was, a couple people have already noticed X being kind of scummy here too.
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TA is seeming townier of late, I think it's unlikely he'd defend mail-mi like that if he was scum and mail-mi, because it seems like we are drifting towards lynching either TA or mail-mi.
Unvote for that, actually.
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Quotefails!
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
What are your thoughts on the two words I bolded there? For reference, they are "I agree." That usually indicates agreement.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
Something to respond to. Something about why u think I'm scum so I can explain it.
Okay.
So, mail-mi generally has a scummy vibe. I empathize, because so do I. So I start off with a higher threshhold for scumminess for mail-mi. Like, watching him in Shakespeare, knowing he was town, but coming off scummy.
The things that have stuck out above and beyond normal mail-mi scumminess in this game include his reaction/vote when I played the raerae gambit; his annoyance and vote at my Mean Girls references; and what I saw as a contradiction when he voted/unvoted Eevee.
Since those things, mail-mi had the "who should I read/read Xeiron/vote Xeiron" thing and now he's actively trying to respond to my case on him.
Is this a super strong case? Nope. It's another D1 case. I don't feel terrible about it though, and think mail-mi has as good a chance of flipping scum as the other acti-lurkers. I think he has a better chance of flipping scum than the foregrounders.
So there are a few things you can respond to, mail-mi. Or not, since they aren't accusations so much as a list of things you did. But taken in total, I feel like it's a good enough case to lynch on for D1.
I don't see why his annoyance at the tracker references is scummy. I mean, it's probably just a frustration thing... I wasn't even alive day2, and reading those I had a reaction to them. But mail-mi would probably be a little annoyed by those references regardless of his alignment here, right? I don't see why his reaction is scummy.. he said he was voting because he was annoyed with you, and I do believe he was in fact annoyed with you. What's scummy there?
It's weird that he chose Xeiron, who's one of the easier mislynches.. but if you don't have a history of building cases and you're looking to get into it, choosing the guy with ten posts is a pretty good way to start, right? So his choice is troubling on one hand, because it's Xeiron, and perfectly reasonable on the other hand, because it's Xeiron. He could have chosen Xeiron because he was an easy mislynch target, but he also could have chosen Xeiron because he's an easy re-read because there's just not much. I don't see a reason to be troubled with his choice of Xeiron.
The more interesting question is whether or not I have an issue with him asking us to choose who to do a re-read on. It is odd, and is something that's attributable to scum, but on the other hand, it's a little too obvious. I keep wanting to say things like "Wouldn't scum be more careful than that?" because that's such an obviously scummy thing, and I'm worried that I'm overthinking it. But I do think that scum!mail-mi would be more careful.
If we're going to lynch someone in the background, I'd much rather it be Xeiron. Mail-Mi had a scummy reaction to Ash's "case" on raerae, but I think Xeiron's reaction was way similar. Mail-mi was a little odd about asking who he should re-read, but I'm much more troubled by Xeiron's challenge of Theorel's math. The "How do you know" line that TA and mail-mi highlighted is much more scummy to me than simply "who should I reread". I think town!mail-mi would ask who to re-read a lot.. I'm not sure that town!xeiron uses the phrase that he did.
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Seriously though, if you have a minute, go read mail-mi's re-read of Eevee in Pirates, and then read his re-read of Xeiron here. Every post he made on Eevee in Pirates was him trying to cram a scum read in when he could. This one DOES NOT read the same way.
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mail-mi made a case on Eevee in Pirates very similar to the one on X - not content wise, but in terms of "who should I look at", "oh, look how scummy they are!". He was town, and so was Eevee. I think he's doing it Day 1 because he's gotten a lot of feedback about not contributing enough. So his behavior so far gives me no particular information about if he's scum or town.
This is the other point I was going to make in response to TA. Even if you feel like mail-mi is "doing more" on D1 than usual, it's very well possible that mail-mi has taken the feedback he's gotten from other games and is adjusting accordingly. And he can do this as either scum or town.
I made this argument about myself in both Bankers and Mean Girls. I was town in one and scum in the other. Knowing that your own meta is hurting you and your team (town or scum) and adjusting accordingly in just normal play. I don't give towncred for it, but it also isn't scummy in and of itself.
Okay. I guess the major difference here is that you, and several others, seem to be giving a scum-read for the "Who should I read / I went to read X", while I am giving it a townread. If he's scum, I'm pretty sure he waits for that answer, or just simply doesn't make the post in the first place. I also didn't get the impression that he was trying to force his views into his re-read, which I got last time -- I think his read on Xeiron comes out pretty genuine.
I have a good compare / contrast to his last re-read in Pirates, which he did as scum. The pirates re-read, to me, SCREAMED of scum trying to force an ingenuine view onto every post a player did. I didn't get ANY of that impression on the re-read, and instead saw this one as really genuine. I think the re-read 100% came from a town member, and not a scum member.
Unless they are both scum. I mean, X is a good lynch too.
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It's weird that he chose Xeiron, who's one of the easier mislynches.. but if you don't have a history of building cases and you're looking to get into it, choosing the guy with ten posts is a pretty good way to start, right? So his choice is troubling on one hand, because it's Xeiron, and perfectly reasonable on the other hand, because it's Xeiron. He could have chosen Xeiron because he was an easy mislynch target, but he also could have chosen Xeiron because he's an easy re-read because there's just not much. I don't see a reason to be troubled with his choice of Xeiron.
I guess I should say I do see a reason, but have no evidence to believe that reason's the correct one. There are other perfectly good reasons that I think are more likely.
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Quotefails!
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
What are your thoughts on the two words I bolded there? For reference, they are "I agree." That usually indicates agreement.
Well, Eevee says he agrees, then goes and does the opposite, so it's pretty clear that in the context of this game, he doesn't actually agree.
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Seriously though, if you have a minute, go read mail-mi's re-read of Eevee in Pirates, and then read his re-read of Xeiron here. Every post he made on Eevee in Pirates was him trying to cram a scum read in when he could. This one DOES NOT read the same way.
Give me a post number!
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Quotefails!
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
What are your thoughts on the two words I bolded there? For reference, they are "I agree." That usually indicates agreement.
Oh semantics? Like. I agree, lynching the guy who just disappears and doesn't post for 4 days is not our best shot at getting mafia. Nor is the guy who typed "I agree" and then "I only partially agree" to the same thing later. I agree scum is generally in the background, the guys you don't even remember are playing (because scum tries really hard to not mess up while town often posts without giving it too much thought.)
However, a lot of the things TA did I found subtly scummy. Now he did something I thought was very towny in defending mail-mi.
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I don't see why his annoyance at the tracker references is scummy. I mean, it's probably just a frustration thing... I wasn't even alive day2, and reading those I had a reaction to them. But mail-mi would probably be a little annoyed by those references regardless of his alignment here, right? I don't see why his reaction is scummy.. he said he was voting because he was annoyed with you, and I do believe he was in fact annoyed with you. What's scummy there?
I think voting simply because you are annoyed is at the very least anti-town, and can easily be an easy excuse to vote for town.
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If we're going to lynch someone in the background, I'd much rather it be Xeiron. Mail-Mi had a scummy reaction to Ash's "case" on raerae, but I think Xeiron's reaction was way similar scummier. Mail-mi was a little odd about asking who he should re-read, but I'm much more troubled by Xeiron's challenge of Theorel's math. The "How do you know" line that TA and mail-mi highlighted is much more scummy to me than simply "who should I reread". I think town!mail-mi would ask who to re-read a lot.. I'm not sure that town!xeiron uses the phrase that he did.
I need to start proofreading better :P
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Quotefails!
Vote: TwistedArcher I guess is a better play than not vote here. My vote is very much for sale still, though.
Eevee, how does this vote for TA match up with what you said two posts before it, here:
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1.
I've been manifesting this for god knows how long. I agree. The problem is that in this game I think almost everyone is "treding lightly" and not being overly aggressive. Ashersky I guess is the boldest, but he is the one guy that could very conceivably play scum like that.
TA is foreground, man.
I'm not sure what the "this" Eevee has been manifesting is, but he doesn't actually indicate agreement with Shraeye, or say he'll only vote for background players.
What are your thoughts on the two words I bolded there? For reference, they are "I agree." That usually indicates agreement.
Oh semantics? Like. I agree, lynching the guy who just disappears and doesn't post for 4 days is not our best shot at getting mafia. Nor is the guy who typed "I agree" and then "I only partially agree" to the same thing later. I agree scum is generally in the background, the guys you don't even remember are playing (because scum tries really hard to not mess up while town often posts without giving it too much thought.)
However, a lot of the things TA did I found subtly scummy. Now he did something I thought was very towny in defending mail-mi.
I was asking EFHW, not you. EFHW claims you didn't agree with shraeye. I claim you did agree with shraeye. Because you did, in fact, agree with shraeye.
Funny reaction from you there, given the post wasn't even directed at you...
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Seriously though, if you have a minute, go read mail-mi's re-read of Eevee in Pirates, and then read his re-read of Xeiron here. Every post he made on Eevee in Pirates was him trying to cram a scum read in when he could. This one DOES NOT read the same way.
Give me a post number!
725 and 732
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I don't see why his annoyance at the tracker references is scummy. I mean, it's probably just a frustration thing... I wasn't even alive day2, and reading those I had a reaction to them. But mail-mi would probably be a little annoyed by those references regardless of his alignment here, right? I don't see why his reaction is scummy.. he said he was voting because he was annoyed with you, and I do believe he was in fact annoyed with you. What's scummy there?
I think voting simply because you are annoyed is at the very least anti-town, and can easily be an easy excuse to vote for town.
Don't you think making the same joke that you know is going to annoy a couple of players in the game is anti-town, as well?
Scum!Mail-mi could be saying "Man, I'm annoyed at these jokes, I'm going to use my annoyance as an excuse for my vote on Ash". But was that vote ever really going to take off? I just don't see the incentives there.
I can also see scum!ash saying "I'm going to continue to make these jokes to provoke reactions from a certain subset of players, and when they lash out at me, I'm going to save there reactions to use later in a case". That seems possible as well.. and more likely to work successfully!
Granted, what I really think happened is that you were joking around, and mail-mi reacted because he was annoyed. It's a null tell on both of you. But certainly not a scum-tell on mail-mi for me, at all.
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I thought it was!
Actually, about mail-mi. When you want to do a reread of someone as a "chore" to help town, it's pretty natural to choose the person with the lowest post count. Like, I can see mail-mi thinking "I have some spare time now, I want to help!" and asking who to reread, then realizing someone might suggest ashersky or TA, realizing the amount of effort rereading them would take and deciding to choose the target himself, landing on one of the easier tasks. And then, people with low post counts often seem scummy, and it's kind of natural to want to validate your work by having it bring results, so the vote makes sense too.
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I'm actually leaning towards suspecting Xeiron the most, interesting.
I know I've asked town who to reread (as town) in similar situation, so definitely not reading that as scummy.
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I'm actually leaning towards suspecting Xeiron the most, interesting.
I know I've asked town who to reread (as town) in similar situation, so definitely not reading that as scummy.
X gets the same "always scummy" treatment as mail-mi, I think.
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I was asking EFHW, not you. EFHW claims you didn't agree with shraeye. I claim you did agree with shraeye. Because you did, in fact, agree with shraeye.
Funny reaction from you there, given the post wasn't even directed at you...
It looks like I misread. I thought the "I agree" referred to whatever he was saying he has manifested for a long time. I read manifested as in "I am like that a lot", but maybe he meant "I have said that a lot".
So, given that he did agree and then voted for TA, what makes it scummy? I know it's a contradiction, but what would make scum contradict themselves here more than town?
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Speaking of background players, Theorel hasn't posted in like 60 hours. Is he V/LA or something?
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Post count!
archetype - 50
ashersky - 124
Eevee - 69
xieron - 12
raerae - 50
mail-mi - 48
TA - 109
chairs - 22
shraeye - 40
Ahoppy - 42
EFHW - 85
spiritbears - 66
theorel - 29
nkirbit - 73
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Speaking of background players, Theorel hasn't posted in like 60 hours. Is he V/LA or something?
He's about as active as he always is in mafia games.
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I'm actually leaning towards suspecting Xeiron the most, interesting.
I know I've asked town who to reread (as town) in similar situation, so definitely not reading that as scummy.
X gets the same "always scummy" treatment as mail-mi, I think.
What are your views on a Xeiron lynch?
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Post count: look at that. X, chairs, and theorelin the 10s to 20s, the next lowest being Ahops at 42. Chairs is vla. Theorel has a lot of content. X has no excuse.
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I'm actually leaning towards suspecting Xeiron the most, interesting.
I know I've asked town who to reread (as town) in similar situation, so definitely not reading that as scummy.
X gets the same "always scummy" treatment as mail-mi, I think.
What do you think of the points mail-mi made in his re-read? Do you agree or disagree with them?
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
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Vote: Xeiron
I do agree that we should lynch someone in the background. Out of those people, Xeiron is my preferred lynch.
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
Hasn't Xeiron been scum before? I remember reading a game where he was scum.
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Ash, Eevee, EFHW (anyone else who's around right now), are you all still against a SB lynch? It's my preferred lynch today, but if it's not going to happen, I will move my vote to Xeiron. But I'd much prefer to lynch Spiritbears.
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
Hasn't Xeiron been scum before? I remember reading a game where he was scum.
Hmmm. Maybe?
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I'm not against spirit lynch, I'm actually very null on him come to think of it.. which is a scum trait, ding ding.
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Ash, Eevee, EFHW (anyone else who's around right now), are you all still against a SB lynch? It's my preferred lynch today, but if it's not going to happen, I will move my vote to Xeiron. But I'd much prefer to lynch Spiritbears.
I'm neutral on sb. Could go either way.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
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Then vote him! He still hasn't provided adequate answers to my questions, or any answers at all. I know the personal stuff is getting in the way (and sorry SB, I really don't mean this personally at all), but I still do like my case. I can repost it if it makes it so people don't have to dig through the thread to find it.
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Then vote him! He still hasn't provided adequate answers to my questions, or any answers at all. I know the personal stuff is getting in the way (and sorry SB, I really don't mean this personally at all), but I still do like my case. I can repost it if it makes it so people don't have to dig through the thread to find it.
You are asking us to vote a neutral read over our scum reads. That doesn't sound odd to you?
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
Obviously there would still be information. Who voted, who didn't?
The "If he was scum, he'd be more excited and post more" argument kind of does give me some pause about xeiron though. Changed my mind, don't want him lynched I don't think..
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
Hasn't Xeiron been scum before? I remember reading a game where he was scum.
Hmmm. Maybe?
The game that should not be named! So he has yet to finish a game as scum.
I do agree with the fact that we get little info if he flips. But if we're lurking to lynch a lurker, that's going to be true regardless. And we still gain info from his wagon, competitor's wagons, etc. I don't think it's that big of an issue, and we should never be looking to lynch someone for info. We should be looking to lynch to get scum.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
This is definitely a true point about little info.
I don't think mail-mi got lucky if Xeiron is scum, he made a very good observation that no one else made before him on Xeiron's analysis of Theorel's math, which is very scummy.
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Then vote him! He still hasn't provided adequate answers to my questions, or any answers at all. I know the personal stuff is getting in the way (and sorry SB, I really don't mean this personally at all), but I still do like my case. I can repost it if it makes it so people don't have to dig through the thread to find it.
You are asking us to vote a neutral read over our scum reads. That doesn't sound odd to you?
I'm asking you to reconsider the case on a player I consider the most likely to flip scum, and then consider voting him. Nope, doesn't seem odd to me.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
This is definitely a true point about little info.
I don't think mail-mi got lucky if Xeiron is scum, he made a very good observation that no one else made before him on Xeiron's analysis of Theorel's math, which is very scummy.
If he's right, he's still lucky in the fact that he chose to re-read scum.
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We've been so talkative, I haven't had a chance to post my reread of TA. I started out thinking he was scummy, based on a few things:
-- his bringing up claiming in the beginning just to say "be very very careful" struck me as scummy, because it could be an excuse to get people thinking about claiming and seeming towny at the same time by saying "don't!".
-- his calling me the scummier of me and Shraeye was also odd to me, but I think now he may have taken my "what ifs" as accusations.
-- his case on sb and his defense of mail-mi do give me pause. sb was rude to him, which might be contributing to his confidence of that read, but I would think he would try to take that into account. I don't see much evidence to support his level of certainty there. And the same with mail-mi. There's not much evidence to support his defense of mail-mi, either. Otoh, his certainty is consistent with his general confidence in his own opinions.
There is also substantial evidence arguing against scumminess:
-- As usual, he is an equal opportunity challenger of anything scummy.
-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now. This was a strong indicator of towniness for me.
-- His response to Shraeye's case was on point and contained. I think his calmness represents a maturing of him as a player more than scum behavior.
-- His reads refer to actual things people have said.
SO, I have to withdraw my earlier prediction that TA is "probably" scum, and have hope of having the happiness in the future of saying he is probably town.
PPE: there have been tons of posts since I started typing this. I'll amend as needed after I read them.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
This is definitely a true point about little info.
I don't think mail-mi got lucky if Xeiron is scum, he made a very good observation that no one else made before him on Xeiron's analysis of Theorel's math, which is very scummy.
If he's right, he's still lucky in the fact that he chose to re-read scum.
Oh. Well then yes.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
Obviously there would still be information. Who voted, who didn't?
The "If he was scum, he'd be more excited and post more" argument kind of does give me some pause about xeiron though. Changed my mind, don't want him lynched I don't think..
I just counted, and he had 21 posts in 17 pages as scum in the newbie game. He has 12 posts in 35 pages here. Certainly a noticeable difference.
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
Hasn't Xeiron been scum before? I remember reading a game where he was scum.
Hmmm. Maybe?
Did he win the crazy blitz game where everyone was scum?
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We've been so talkative, I haven't had a chance to post my reread of TA. I started out thinking he was scummy, based on a few things:
-- his bringing up claiming in the beginning just to say "be very very careful" struck me as scummy, because it could be an excuse to get people thinking about claiming and seeming towny at the same time by saying "don't!".
-- his calling me the scummier of me and Shraeye was also odd to me, but I think now he may have taken my "what ifs" as accusations.
-- his case on sb and his defense of mail-mi do give me pause. sb was rude to him, which might be contributing to his confidence of that read, but I would think he would try to take that into account. I don't see much evidence to support his level of certainty there. And the same with mail-mi. There's not much evidence to support his defense of mail-mi, either. Otoh, his certainty is consistent with his general confidence in his own opinions.
There is also substantial evidence arguing against scumminess:
-- As usual, he is an equal opportunity challenger of anything scummy.
-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now. This was a strong indicator of towniness for me.
-- His response to Shraeye's case was on point and contained. I think his calmness represents a maturing of him as a player more than scum behavior.
-- His reads refer to actual things people have said.
SO, I have to withdraw my earlier prediction that TA is "probably" scum, and have hope of having the happiness in the future of saying he is probably town.
PPE: there have been tons of posts since I started typing this. I'll amend as needed after I read them.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad.
Like, lynching bad.
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Also, 35 pages before I call a scumslip. That might be a record. If only yuma were playing, he'd be yelling at me now.
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I think X is scummy, too. It isn't like he's a bad lynch or anything.
I think there's more to go on for the mail-mi case. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum. If this was his first scum game, I'd expect him to be more excited, and therefore posting more to stay alive.
Hasn't Xeiron been scum before? I remember reading a game where he was scum.
Hmmm. Maybe?
Did he win the crazy blitz game where everyone was scum?
He did win the bastard game where everyone was a SK, yeah. And was scum in the aborted game.
I also just counted mean girls: 40 posts in 2 and a half days. So pretty much exactly in line with what we're seeing here, and he was town there. This is a concern.
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
Obviously there would still be information. Who voted, who didn't?
The "If he was scum, he'd be more excited and post more" argument kind of does give me some pause about xeiron though. Changed my mind, don't want him lynched I don't think..
This is now the second time in the past 3 or 4 pages where you've gone from having a scum read on someone to not supporting having them lynched, as soon as other people have brought up reasons on why they shouldn't be lynched. Foreground player for myself (although you cite my defense of mail-mi), and now Xeiron as soon as someone else pointed out a reason. I'm not sure if this a scum tell honestly, but it gives me pause at the very least.
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I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
This is the only post in the game where TA talks about stealing items, at all, for reference. I don't see how this is at all something that could be seen as scummy.. it's early in the game when we're talking about the possibility of claiming, and he offhandedly guesses something, and never talks about it again. I don't get how this is any part of a read on TA.
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Xeiron seems like a guy who would put more effort into playing scum. In Axxle's ready, aim, fire! game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8078.0 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8078.0)) he tried to form an alliance with everyone without any intention of staying true to them, so I think he would enjoy being scum in a mafia game and be pretty excited about it, ready to put in the effort to deceive people. That's why I changed my mind about him.
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I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
But that wasn't a scum-read-tunnel, that was a let's-get-more-info tunnel, right? Or it started out as a scum read that you exaggerated for more info? Or you truly had a scum read? Argh I can't keep things straight, what the reason for tunneling him that hard, a genuine scum read?
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I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
For terrible reasons. Really, it wasn't a gambit, you believed all that?
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
This is the only post in the game where TA talks about stealing items, at all, for reference. I don't see how this is at all something that could be seen as scummy.. it's early in the game when we're talking about the possibility of claiming, and he offhandedly guesses something, and never talks about it again. I don't get how this is any part of a read on TA.
The "scumslip" Ash brings up is from EFHW, I thought? I don't read much into it, really.
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
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I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
For terrible reasons. Really, it wasn't a gambit, you believed all that?
I didn't not believe it.
I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
But that wasn't a scum-read-tunnel, that was a let's-get-more-info tunnel, right? Or it started out as a scum read that you exaggerated for more info? Or you truly had a scum read? Argh I can't keep things straight, what the reason for tunneling him that hard, a genuine scum read?
It was based on more a scum-read than the raerae thing. That is to say, there's at least something there.
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
Right. The wording of the sentence is "since scum could get a stealing power from items" and that to me says "there is a stealing power that scum could get from items" and only scum would know that.
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Can you state the case on me, now? Like, why would I be a good lynch? For reference:
I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
This is the only post in the game where TA talks about stealing items, at all, for reference. I don't see how this is at all something that could be seen as scummy.. it's early in the game when we're talking about the possibility of claiming, and he offhandedly guesses something, and never talks about it again. I don't get how this is any part of a read on TA.
The "scumslip" Ash brings up is from EFHW, I thought? I don't read much into it, really.
I don't think TA's post about stealing stuff makes him scummy. It's just a "what if" sort of thing. EFHW's seemed much more sure that stealing was going to happen.
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So basically, we'd be inventory-claiming.
Okay. Hmmm, that seems better. The only possible downside I see is that it effectively provides a list of all of the items in the game, but is that such a bad thing that's abusable by scum? Unless scum have an ability to steal items, then it could backfire.
This is the only post in the game where TA talks about stealing items, at all, for reference. I don't see how this is at all something that could be seen as scummy.. it's early in the game when we're talking about the possibility of claiming, and he offhandedly guesses something, and never talks about it again. I don't get how this is any part of a read on TA.
The "scumslip" Ash brings up is from EFHW, I thought? I don't read much into it, really.
I don't think TA's post about stealing stuff makes him scummy. It's just a "what if" sort of thing. EFHW's seemed much more sure that stealing was going to happen.
Oh no, I'm not saying he's scummy at all. I also don't think he's towny at all. His point read to me like it was the last sentence of a post, and he spent 5 seconds thinking about it. I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.
I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash. But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you :)
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
I didn't say anything about the power existing. And if mentioning stealing reveals that it exists as a power (which it doesn't), then you'd have to find TA scummy for that for being the first to say it.
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Can you state the case on me, now? Like, why would I be a good lynch? For reference:
I might be convinced of an Eevee lynch. I did tunnel him earlier.
The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):
1. Smaller presence than usual. Noted by others as well.
2. The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3. The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4. More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5. Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6. Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)
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I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.
I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash. But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you :)
You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
I didn't say anything about the power existing. And if mentioning stealing reveals that it exists as a power (which it doesn't), then you'd have to find TA scummy for that for being the first to say it.
You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..." That's exactly what you said. Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].
How do you know they could get one? That's my question.
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Early nkirbit case on mail-mi. FYI.
On Mail-Mi. Since I didn't remember exactly what Ash was talking about, I went back to look it up.
1. Mail-Mi voted Eevee for being inactive. Eevee was pretty inactive at this point.
2. Ash continues to make jokes like "hahaha I'm such a good watcher I watched myself watch everyone watch me win in mean girls"
3. Mail-Mi votes Ash, calling it "12% RVS", partly due to the jokes. Whatever.
4. Mail-Mi unvotes
5. Mail-Mi votes Eevee without a reason in the post he votes in. Eevee had come back and been active by this point. When questioned about the vote, we see this post:
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
Mail-Mi is later asked why he's still voting Eevee, and we see this:
Mai, why are you still voting severe when he is fully contributing now?
That was my main reason, unvote.
A little bit different, to be sure.
Mail-Mi, do you no longer think Eevee is "off"? And why not, if you don't?
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Nkirbit, thinking about it, I don't really know your reads. Scummy on SB and X, not really sure on your reads on most other people. Have you posted a list? If not, can you please do so? I'm finding that I'm unsure of what you think about most of the other players who are active.
If you made a list and I forgot about it I'm sorry and can you redirect me to it?
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I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.
I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash. But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you :)
You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?
Yeah, I know. I just think that's it's interesting that you're using a piece of evidence to say a player is towny, and I look at that piece of evidence and see absolutely nothing at all. I'm still thinking about what my interpretation of it is. I'm not sure at this point.
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Nkirbit, thinking about it, I don't really know your reads. Scummy on SB and X, not really sure on your reads on most other people. Have you posted a list? If not, can you please do so? I'm finding that I'm unsure of what you think about most of the other players who are active.
If you made a list and I forgot about it I'm sorry and can you redirect me to it?
To add something else, I'm finding it really hard to form an opinion on Nkirbit this game, and remember what he's said / what he's done, even though I know he's been active and posting. This may be due to him being my brother, but I had an opinion on him last game I played, and I just have NOTHING on him this game, either scummy or towny.
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I did make a list, but I'll make a new one. It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now. Give me a few minutes.
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I did make a list, but I'll make a new one. It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now. Give me a few minutes.
I just looked, for everyone's reference the old list is in #499. Lots of nulls there, only scummy reads are myself and Ahoppy.
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You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..." That's exactly what you said. Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].
How do you know they could get one? That's my question.
"Even if ... they could" means "I don't know if they have one now or not, but if they don't, they still might be able to get one later, we can't know for sure and neither can they," not "even if they can't now, they could get the power later, because I know there's there's a combo for that". Do you see what I mean?
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The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):
1. Smaller presence than usual. Noted by others as well.
2. The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3. The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4. More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5. Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6. Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)
1. I think I've been as much of a presence than I've been in previous games.
2. The kind of thing I'm known to do as town too, you yourself said that I could take that stance regardless of my alignment.
3. I think you are the only one who has noticed that? Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
4. Nah, wasn't forced. Just your run of the mill Eevee buddying.
5. Yeah, not being sure about things and being willing to change your mind, total scum traits! Multiple times I've said I'm figuring this out as we more forward, and I think the flipflops on TA and and xeiron are good examples of that. I'm relatively sure it's going to continue like that, too. Hopefully I get it right when it matters.
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ASh, why did you bring up nkirbit's case on mail-mi?
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You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..." That's exactly what you said. Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].
How do you know they could get one? That's my question.
"Even if ... they could" means "I don't know if they have one now or not, but if they don't, they still might be able to get one later, we can't know for sure and neither can they," not "even if they can't now, they could get the power later, because I know there's there's a combo for that". Do you see what I mean?
Sure, I see what you could have meant, had you used the word "if." But, you see, you didn't.
-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
That's my point. You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..." You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power." SINCE to me says you know it. SINCE = BECAUSE here.
Read this: "especially because scum could get a stealing power..." Pretty bad, right?
So then you cut your quote from the response and say you said "if" even though you didn't. Lynch all liars.
vote: EFHW
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ASh, why did you bring up nkirbit's case on mail-mi?
Just noticed it when I was going back to get my old case on Eevee. Thought it was useful, since we had just been talking about mail-mi.
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I don't think it's meaningful in anyway, and think it's interesting that EFHW thinks it is.
I'm much, much less convinced of that being a scumslip than you are, Ash. But I suppose others being less sure of scumslips is nothing new to you :)
You understand that I'm using it as evidence of NOT being scum, right?
Yeah, I know. I just think that's it's interesting that you're using a piece of evidence to say a player is towny, and I look at that piece of evidence and see absolutely nothing at all. I'm still thinking about what my interpretation of it is. I'm not sure at this point.
It struck me because I had been advocating announcing innocuous items that one has so people could send you possibly complementary items, and it hadn't occurred to me at all that scum could take advantage of that if they have a stealing power. I think scum wouldn't have brought up something new that no one else had thought of to discourage claiming of items.
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The case on Eevee (originally on pages 21-25 or so):
1. Smaller presence than usual. Noted by others as well.
2. The sb defense, which could be an easy grab for towncred.
3. The similarity of Eevee this D1 to Mean Girls D1.
4. More argumentative and overeactive than normal Eevee.
5. Forced buddying post to seem more towny again (see my #581)
6. Quick to flip-flop on people now (TA and X most recently)
1. I think I've been as much of a presence than I've been in previous games.
2. The kind of thing I'm known to do as town too, you yourself said that I could take that stance regardless of my alignment.
3. I think you are the only one who has noticed that? Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
4. Nah, wasn't forced. Just your run of the mill Eevee buddying.
5. Yeah, not being sure about things and being willing to change your mind, total scum traits! Multiple times I've said I'm figuring this out as we more forward, and I think the flipflops on TA and and xeiron are good examples of that. I'm relatively sure it's going to continue like that, too. Hopefully I get it right when it matters.
Fair responses. SB noted you resembled your Mean Girls D1 self, btw. We don't have to agree, but in the end, I don't think you make sense as the lynch today.
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No, spirit said the exact opposite. He said "scum Eevee was very active all throughout day 1 in mean girls, he is not like that at all here so his lurking isn't scummy to me.. maybe it is to others though?" or something to that effect.
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I did make a list, but I'll make a new one. It was a while ago and my reads have surely changed by now. Give me a few minutes.
I just looked, for everyone's reference the old list is in #499. Lots of nulls there, only scummy reads are myself and Ahoppy.
Yes, you are correct. I don't get why you're bringing up my old list, though.
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Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything. I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer. Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.
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That's my point. You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..." You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power." SINCE to me says you know it. SINCE = BECAUSE here.
Read this: "especially because scum could get a stealing power..." Pretty bad, right?
Ok, I see. But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power? Do you not agree that that is a possibility? That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.
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Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything. I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer. Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.
Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!
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That's my point. You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..." You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power." SINCE to me says you know it. SINCE = BECAUSE here.
Read this: "especially because scum could get a stealing power..." Pretty bad, right?
Ok, I see. But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power? Do you not agree that that is a possibility? That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.
I don't know if it's true. I didn't think of that at all. What mafia power equates to stealing? Watching/Tracking/Jailing/Investigating/Killing...none is stealing. The OP says "neat-o power role." POWER ROLE. ROLE. What ROLE is Stealer? I mean, "Thief" exists on mafiascum, I guess, but it's basically a cop, not an actual Thief.
So I think if Archetype built in scum stealing, only scum would know that, or even think of it. So to me it looks like you slipped. TA's post is less blatant, but he gets scum points for it, now that I've worked this out even more clearly.
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Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything. I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer. Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.
Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!
We're not talking about it like it is happening now. It was happening before and Eevee asked for the "case" on him, so it needed to be raised again.
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That's my point. You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..." You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power." SINCE to me says you know it. SINCE = BECAUSE here.
Read this: "especially because scum could get a stealing power..." Pretty bad, right?
Ok, I see. But isn't it true that scum could possibly get a stealing power? Do you not agree that that is a possibility? That possibility is a fact, I think, so "since" is accurate even without special knowledge, and that is how it got into that sentence.
I don't know if it's true. I didn't think of that at all. What mafia power equates to stealing? Watching/Tracking/Jailing/Investigating/Killing...none is stealing. The OP says "neat-o power role." POWER ROLE. ROLE. What ROLE is Stealer? I mean, "Thief" exists on mafiascum, I guess, but it's basically a cop, not an actual Thief.
So I think if Archetype built in scum stealing, only scum would know that, or even think of it. So to me it looks like you slipped. TA's post is less blatant, but he gets scum points for it, now that I've worked this out even more clearly.
Is there any chance of you saying "I guess I'm overreaching here?" We're going to have just disagree, I guess.
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I could be wrong, sure. But I could be right. Good enough chance of that to think you are our best chance of lynching scum on D1.
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I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch. I haven't found anyone's cases compelling. My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around. His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.
raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say. Are they off somewhere lurking together?
Past due time for Theorel to come back.
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Ahoppy: For a while, I had him as my top scumread. He was around, but engaged only in theory talk, and would give reads soon after players started to pile pressure on him for not having many reads. I went back and re-read him in Mean Girls, where he was town, and his play was pretty similar to here. He was slightly more active here, but in Mean Girls he didn't build cases anymore. His actions here fit with his actions in mean girls. I'm still slightly worried, as he has been active here, but much less so than before. Slight scum read.
Ashersky: He's been very protown, but I think he might be able to fake that well. He certainly faked it well when he was a watcher in mean girls (Note: Wasn't actually a watcher in mean girls). I recently have issues with differences between how he pursued mail-mi's lynch, but was reluctant to do the same with Xeiron, despite them having very similar metas and similar cases. If Xeiron eventually flips scum, or mail-mi town, this would be something to keep in mind. I also am uncomfortable with how he found Mail-mi scummy for reacting to his jokes about watching in mean girls... it seems like it could have been a trap. But, Xeiron hasn't flipped scum, and mail-mi hasn't flipped town, and he has been a leading force in moving the game forward, so for now, a slightly town read.
Chairs: Very towny. I think his claim is newbie town. See my post #668 if you want more in-depth reasoning. Big town read.
Eevee: He defended SB, who I think is slightly scummy, and mail-mi, who I don't think is that scummy. He defended from Ashersky well, and had good answers to all his points. He's been very open and pro-town, and I have no reason to think that's a facade at this point. Town read.
EFHW: Not really a strong opinion here. Her early argument with Shraeye is a null on both sides to me. I actually can't remember her specific views.. perhaps a re-read is in order soon. Null for now.
Mail-Mi: Has done a few things that have been scummy (the flip-flop on Eevee, asking who to reread), but I don't actually have a huge concern here. The biggest thing is the inconsistent explanation of his vote for Eevee, which was just really odd. He was voting Eevee for inactivity, moved off to ash, revoted for Eevee for inactivity and "feeling off" or something like that, then explaining his vote as being purely for inactivity. It's inconsistent, for sure.
The Eevee thing is all I really have serious problems with. I wouldn't be shocked if he were scum, but I think we can do better.
Slight scum read.
Raerae: Not much recently at all. My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town. Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with,
Shraeye: Not much recently either! I had a null-read on him before, and still don't have any reason to think he's scum or town. It is important to note that he was the first one to put us on the track towards lynching inactive players, and at the time gave a list of players that he would not consider lynching. As players start flipping, I think we should keep in mind the categories he listed players as and see if we can detect any patterns. Null read.
Spiritbears: His main stance this game was supporting EFHW as towny as Shraeye as scummy. If I'm remembering correctly, the only stated reason for supporting EFHW is that she was saying a lot of things he agreed with. This SB-EFHW connection is something to keep in mind. What's odd here for SB is that I don't at all know why Shraeye is (was?) a scum-read for him. He never gave us a reason! He put some effort into pushing Shraeye, for example asking Theorel if he was okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case. Placing a vote on someone, pushing for it, but never explaining why you think that player is scummy is off, and scummy.
I don't at all buy the argument that SB's aggressive defense is towny, either. People say that the last time he did this, he was town... well, yeah, but as town he has also not been this aggressive. I think it's possible that SB could be aggressive when pushed regardless of alignment when pushed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the defense here, but I don't buy it as of now. Scum read.
Theorel: Missing for so long. Was dead null before his absence, and even more null now. As null as it gets.
TwistedArcher: Initially, I had a feeling that he was "off". But looking back, I'm not 100% sure why. He drove a case fairly hard against SB, which is exactly the same thing he did Day1 in Shakespeare against myself, Day2 in Pirates against mail-mi, etc. He may or may not be right, but town!TA builds cases like that. He's asking good questions, participating actively, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he says lately. I don't have any reasons to think he's scum at this point. Town read.
Xeiron: I think how he responded to Ash's case on raerae by voting raerae was scummy. He made so many assumptions when giving his reasoning.. that ash *might* be a town member who *might* be insinuating that he *might* have info on raerae. What?? And then he comes on and gives Theorel's math a challenge, that's also bad and appears like he didn't impartially read the post.
My only concern is the 12 post thing. This is my least favorite part about forum mafia.. when you play in real life, everyone is there, and you can ask them anything at any time. Here, we have to play around people's availabilities, and participation is very self-driven. I think it is quite possible that town!Xeiron is disinterested. But I still think we have a better case on him than anyone else, and he's my preferred lynch. Scum read.
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Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
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That's an impressive reads post nkirbit, very throughout. Still a solid town read.
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Interestingly enough, that list is VERY, VERY similar to mine. Everyone's the exact same read, in fact, except that I have mail-mi as more towny, Eevee as more scummy, and Shraeye as more towny. The rest is almost the same as my list.
It strikes me as interesting that the only differences concern Eevee as more towny, mail-mi (who had made a case on Eevee) more scummy, and a small difference on Shraeye.
It also strikes me as interesting, despite the fact that Nkirbit's list is so, so, so similar to mine, that Eevee challenged my reads, and greets Nkirbit's reads with a "nice post, town read". On my list, he had a problem with my reads on Raerae (which was poorly explained) and mail-mi (which was explained). On nkirbit's list, mail-mi is scummy, while on mine he's towny.
Literally the only significant differences between my list and Nkirbit's list were the reads on mail-mi and Eevee. Eevee should be happy that he's townier on this list, but I think there could be something here with the Eevee-Nkirbit-mail-mi triangle. Eevee is much happier with this list than with mine, and the only significant non-Eevee placement is with mail-mi.
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The things that have stuck out above and beyond normal mail-mi scumminess in this game include his reaction/vote when I played the raerae gambit;
I thought it was kind of scummy of you so I voted u.
his annoyance and vote at my Mean Girls references;
You're totally forgetting the other 88% not RVS reason! That scum!ash is trying to get into our heads!
and what I saw as a contradiction when he voted/unvoted Eevee.
Lurking was a main reason. Not the main reason, but a main one.
PPE: 67 wow.
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TA, it wasn't so much the actual reads - we don't have THAT much to go on yet, so I'm not as concerned about people interpreting things differently. It was more how he explained them. Nkirbit's explanations made sense to me, and I could understand how he landed on those reads. It was explanation first, then a logical read stemming from it. Yours had more of a "okay, this is what I want to think, and now I need to find a way to rationalize it" feel.
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Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
I thought that didn't start until Thursday. They're not listed.
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TA, it wasn't so much the actual reads - we don't have THAT much to go on yet, so I'm not as concerned about people interpreting things differently. It was more how he explained them. Nkirbit's explanations made sense to me, and I could understand how he landed on those reads. It was explanation first, then a logical read stemming from it. Yours had more of a "okay, this is what I want to think, and now I need to find a way to rationalize it" feel.
Once again, I think this is stemming from you seeing me as "off" and reading all my posts that way, but that's fair enough I guess.
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I do have a strong feeling most of us who've been duper active here tonight are town. Like, maybe one scum, but for the most part this reminds me of myself, ash and Jimm in bankers - interested townies getting together and trying to figure it out. So heh, ultimately I do want to lynch outside from the foreground I guess?
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Man, I don't get why we're still talking about Eevee's activity as if it's anything. I think either scum!eevee or town!eevee ceded to reallife!eevee who wanted to go outside and enjoy summer. Eevee's early inactivity is as null as it could be at this point for me.
Although, to be exact, it really didn't have anything to do with being busy. I just couldn't think of anything useful to say!
I think TA has a point in noticing an apparent link between nkirbit and Eevee.
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Ahoppy is v/la, btw, and I think chairs said he would be gone, too? He didn't put it in the v/la thread.
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sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it. We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!
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sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it. We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!
Second!
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I just want to say that Day 1 is impossible! Talk to you all tomorrow!
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sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it. We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!
Second!
Yes, this!
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To be fair, your read on raerae was:
Nothing has really made me think she's scum whatsoever, town read here.
And mine was
My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town. Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with
So there's a very good reason why Eevee had an issue with your town read but not mine. Yours didn't make any sense, though.
The Eevee - Mail-mi connection is interesting, and a good point to keep in mind! Also interesting to note that this is not the first time we have had a connection between those two... mail-mi's votes on Eevee were odd upon examination, and a lot of us concluded they were scummy because he was inconsistent.
What was Eevee doing during the Mail-Mi mini wagon we had going on?
#780. Agrees with Ash (#779) that TA's defense of Mail-mi is odd.
#795 Thinks that Mail-mi's "can I have some questions to defend myself" post is fake.
#816, we have this:
TA is seeming townier of late, I think it's unlikely he'd defend mail-mi like that if he was scum and mail-mi, because it seems like we are drifting towards lynching either TA or mail-mi.
Unvote for that, actually.
Yet still doesn't vote mail-mi? Why not? All we have heard from Eevee lately is uneasiness about mail-mi. Why doesn't he vote here, then?
#830 Defend's mail-mi, both in his action of choosing to read Xeiron, and his question asking for who to re-read.
#831 Says he's leaning towards lynching Xeiron, who seems to be one of the few alternative lynches.
And then he very quickly moves off of voting Xeiron.
Reading back, I can't find Eevee ever state a definitive scumread on Mail-Mi. But he makes lots of comments about how he doesn't think Mail-mi's Xeiron case is good (#712), and other subtle things like that.
The connection is certainly weird.
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Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is scum, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.
Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a town among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
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That's an excellent example of what I was trying to say, nkirbit. Your reads are explanations -> logical conclusions. TA's were conclusions -> some words trying to explain them. Eh, I don't know how to explain it. Read what nkirbit wrote above!
I thought my mail-mi position was clearer, sorry. It's extremely hard for me to read him, as I always always think he is so scummy. Like, if this was some new guy I had no idea about, I would have probably voted him after the flipflop on me and never swayed from that. However, with mail-mi I've just got to remember that history has shown that being sheepy and sometimes not being able to explain your reads or positions in a sufficient manner is not a scum tell - it's just how he plays the game (and I do think he is intentionally embracing that meta now). So, I'm trying different things, trying to learn how to read him. "Is there a town narrative for this scummy action" is one way to look at it, and you know, his behavior could very well be just him being a care-free townie. I don't know, a bunch of stuff he has done is scummy, but also some of it is really not scummy, more "weird".
TA deflecting away from mail-mi when they were the two top wagons doesn't say anything about mail-mi's alignment to me - I just think scum might panic there and try to scramble for any alternative lynch. TA seemed to still be interested in trying to find mafia (rather than in lynching anyone but himself), which I think is a huge town tell. But, TA being town and reading mail-mi's actions towny doesn't really say much about mail-mi.
I don't know, I'm going back and forth, it's like "yes, he is not a town read, but we can try to figure it out later, no need to lynch him today".
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I concede the point on Raerae, but that's 1 read out of 12 -- I think the rest of my reads were fairly well explained!
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I swear, one of these days I'll start proofreading.
Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is scumtown, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.
Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a townscum among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
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I don't know, Eevee. Another simply interpretation of your actions is simply "I want mail-mi lynched, but I don't want to be the one holding the rope".
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I think I've actually been pushing away from a mail-mi lynch if anything, really. Like I know I'm not being very clear about it, but I've never voted for him and don't consider him the best lynch now.
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Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is town, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.
Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a scum among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
(I kept your fix in, just cleaned it up for readability.)
What? If Eevee is going for a mail-mi mislynch, why did he jump in when he did and defend mail-mi? There was a decent amount of pressure at that point, and he had a hand in stopping the momentum. I just don't get how Eevee would be trying to push a mail-mi mislynch here.
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I don't know, Eevee. Another simply interpretation of your actions is simply "I want mail-mi lynched, but I don't want to be the one holding the rope".
I'm explicitly saying I don't think he is the best lynch for today, despite some of the weird stuff he has done. The weird stuff is just a part of his MO, no matter what.
I don't know what more I can say. It feels like you are punishing me for putting my thoughts out there. Heck, we don't even know if mail-mi is town, and now I'm to blame for secretly pushing for his mislynch (even though I really am not)?
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Guys, we're on page 38 now? This is D1. We're killing ourselves on future days with this.
We need to narrow this down.
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Should we set a softdeadline, then? That's one way to narrow it down.
Shraeye and Raerae said they were gone 7/3 through 7/somethinglater, right? What about a soft deadline for Tuesday night? Heck, we can probably even do tomorrow night.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Oh look, someone else called you out on it. To quote you:
"...he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people...given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game..."
You think "mostly the Xeiron stuff" fits the description you gave in your read? "Catch people" sounds like a plural to me. What scumhunting? I get it, he did one re-read. WOOOOOO! No, really, where are you coming from, TA?
No, like seriously, when he's been scum, he sheeped ALWAYS and NEVER did anything original. This is out of the norm for mail-mi to me, and to me, the norm for mail-mi is scum.
Getting caught up and this post is shady as shady gets. You said when he's scum he sheeps and doesn't do anything original. Then you say that he is NOT doing that now and is therefore scum. What what??? (Also, I'm like 6 pages behind the rest of the world so if this has been answered...oh well.)
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Hm. That's interesting, and you're bringing up a lot of interesting stuff. I still think mail-mi is town, but...could they be partners? I doubt it, given that I think mail-mi is town. But very possibly Eevee is trying to push town towards a mail-mi mislynch.
Eevee has said that he thinks it's unlikely that there's a scum among the active posters today...from among that group (myself, Nkirbit, EFHW, Eevee, Ashersky) I would most certainly lynch Eevee over anyone else.
(I kept your fix in, just cleaned it up for readability.)
What? If Eevee is going for a mail-mi mislynch, why did he jump in when he did and defend mail-mi? There was a decent amount of pressure at that point, and he had a hand in stopping the momentum. I just don't get how Eevee would be trying to push a mail-mi mislynch here.
Ugh, there's been so many things happening today, I'm forgetting the timeline. I know Eevee was pointing out scummy things that mail-mi did early, then defended him by saying that actually, Xeiron was a natural target to re-read. Did Eevee defend mail-mi more than I'm recalling?
I got the impression Eevee's been finding scummy things that mail-mi, but didn't want to lynch, mostly for meta reasons. Is this a correct characterization, Eevee? That's still putting scummy things out there, though.
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Raerae... pretty sure TA's conclusion and read on mail-mi is that mail-mi is town. So there's no contradiction there.
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TA, what scumhunting has mail-mi been doing? I don't recall anything in particular that wasn't a resaying of something somebody else had already said.
Mostly the Xeiron stuff. It's unlike him to go and read someone D1 and form his own opinions, whens the last time you saw that happen? I'm also probably tilted by the fact that he made the same point about Xeiron regarding the "exactly 3 scum" that I saw, which I think was a really really good point.
Oh look, someone else called you out on it. To quote you:
"...he does seem like he's been more active and trying to catch people...given what he's been doing with scumhunting this game..."
You think "mostly the Xeiron stuff" fits the description you gave in your read? "Catch people" sounds like a plural to me. What scumhunting? I get it, he did one re-read. WOOOOOO! No, really, where are you coming from, TA?
No, like seriously, when he's been scum, he sheeped ALWAYS and NEVER did anything original. This is out of the norm for mail-mi to me, and to me, the norm for mail-mi is scum.
Getting caught up and this post is shady as shady gets. You said when he's scum he sheeps and doesn't do anything original. Then you say that he is NOT doing that now and is therefore scum. What what??? (Also, I'm like 6 pages behind the rest of the world so if this has been answered...oh well.)
No, you misunderstand. Most of the times I've played with mail-mi, he's been scum. Therefore, to me, normal mail-mi is scum. This game, and his re-read on Xeiron, was different. Since he's been scum in most of my experiences with him, different = towny. I have a town read on mail-mi.
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
I've got nothing. If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.
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Should we set a softdeadline, then? That's one way to narrow it down.
Shraeye and Raerae said they were gone 7/3 through 7/somethinglater, right? What about a soft deadline for Tuesday night? Heck, we can probably even do tomorrow night.
Tomorrow night is good for me, given the time difference that's 7/2 for me. I'll be mostly VLA from 7/3 to 7/7 for the holiday; taking the fam on a trip.
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Okay.
Soft Deadline 7/1 at 9pm forum time?
Does anyone have an objections to that?
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You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still.
The only real interaction we have is mail-mi's re-read. And if X is scum, mail-mi got lucky or is bussing.
Obviously there would still be information. Who voted, who didn't?
The "If he was scum, he'd be more excited and post more" argument kind of does give me some pause about xeiron though. Changed my mind, don't want him lynched I don't think..
I SOOOOOOOOOOOOO disagree with this. I was terrified out of my face when I subbed as scum in Bankers and had very little interest in posting because I was afraid of saying something scummy. Yes, most of you people are normal and excited to play scum but it's totally plausible to be on the other side of that boat and not want to post because of it.
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Okay.
Soft Deadline 7/1 at 9pm forum time?
Does anyone have an objections to that?
I like it.
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I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch. I haven't found anyone's cases compelling. My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around. His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.
raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say. Are they off somewhere lurking together?
Past due time for Theorel to come back.
ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME???????????? What? I'm gone for six hours and suddenly that's classified as lurking? What world do you live in??
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Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
I thought that didn't start until Thursday. They're not listed.
I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch. I haven't found anyone's cases compelling. My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around. His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.
raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say. Are they off somewhere lurking together?
Past due time for Theorel to come back.
ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME???????????? What? I'm gone for six hours and suddenly that's classified as lurking? What world do you live in??
Wow, really wow. We have been at a going away party most of the day. We slacked off during preparations to throw in many posts this morning, but when 6 pages show up in 8 hours or so...suddenly it's time to wonder if we're V/LA??
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
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I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch. I haven't found anyone's cases compelling. My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around. His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.
raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say. Are they off somewhere lurking together?
Past due time for Theorel to come back.
ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME???????????? What? I'm gone for six hours and suddenly that's classified as lurking? What world do you live in??
In the world where we post 10 pages in 1 day!
I lol'd at your guys reactions. Don't worry, I'm not holding it against you (or against anyone else), and I hope no one else will as well. Good luck with the re-read! ;)
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Yeah, both raerae and shraeye are VLA.
I thought that didn't start until Thursday. They're not listed.
I'm with Eevee at this point with little certainty on who to lynch. I haven't found anyone's cases compelling. My opinion of Shraeye hasn't changed, but it feels like old news now, with no new events to bolster it with, except that he hasn't been around. His post count was 40, 2 lower than Ahoppy.
raerae has been very much under the radar, too, I'd say. Are they off somewhere lurking together?
Past due time for Theorel to come back.
ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME???????????? What? I'm gone for six hours and suddenly that's classified as lurking? What world do you live in??
Wow, really wow. We have been at a going away party most of the day. We slacked off during preparations to throw in many posts this morning, but when 6 pages show up in 8 hours or so...suddenly it's time to wonder if we're V/LA??
:-[
Sorry. I expressed similar concerns. I think it's partly due to the fact that we went through 10 pages today... I think "game time" moving so fast made some of us forget that it actually hadn't been that long in real time. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess. But no offense meant!
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Regarding ahsersky's EFHW crusade: EFHW is foreground, these will be the people who are much easier to analyze day2, and frankly less likely to be scum. I thought you agreed with that.
I could be wrong, sure. But I could be right. Good enough chance of that to think you are our best chance of lynching scum on D1.
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Agree with shraeye here that we should be looking to lynch an acti-lurker.
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
I've got nothing. If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.
Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.
Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
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Soft deadline works for me
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Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
Eevee, who is the 'we' you are talking about here?
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Regarding ahsersky's EFHW crusade: EFHW is foreground, these will be the people who are much easier to analyze day2, and frankly less likely to be scum. I thought you agreed with that.
I could be wrong, sure. But I could be right. Good enough chance of that to think you are our best chance of lynching scum on D1.
I don't see myself voting for anybody who's been in the foreground during day1. I have just been burned too much by going after scummy-looking loud people, which just lets scum skate by. I think this is really true of f.DS meta-styles recently, and the reason why town has lost so many. Scum walk into day 1 being very careful not to say anything too "out there" and wait for town to blow up on itself, which towns inevitably do. The players that I consider "foreground players" would be raerae, EFHW, spirit, Twisted, ashersky, myself. I think nkirbit/Eevee have rode a line, where they pop out at certain moments looking obvious, and seem to be hidden in my mind at others; I don't put them on the no-lynch list. I think that background players so far are Xeiron, AHoppy, chairs, theorel, mail-mi.
Agree with shraeye here that we should be looking to lynch an acti-lurker.
I did, until EFHW slipped. I'll always lynch obvscum over anyone else.
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Multiple snippets of my thoughts:
Then vote him! He still hasn't provided adequate answers to my questions, or any answers at all. I know the personal stuff is getting in the way (and sorry SB, I really don't mean this personally at all), but I still do like my case. I can repost it if it makes it so people don't have to dig through the thread to find it.
You are asking us to vote a neutral read over our scum reads. That doesn't sound odd to you?
This could possibly be a deflection, and I think it does show a possible connection between mail-mi/Twisted.
What are your thoughts on the two words I bolded there? For reference, they are "I agree." That usually indicates agreement.
I was totally going to say this, but then I saw that you beat my snarky butt to it.
It's weird that he chose Xeiron, who's one of the easier mislynches.. but if you don't have a history of building cases and you're looking to get into it, choosing the guy with ten posts is a pretty good way to start, right? So his choice is troubling on one hand, because it's Xeiron, and perfectly reasonable on the other hand, because it's Xeiron. He could have chosen Xeiron because he was an easy mislynch target, but he also could have chosen Xeiron because he's an easy re-read because there's just not much. I don't see a reason to be troubled with his choice of Xeiron.
The more interesting question is whether or not I have an issue with him asking us to choose who to do a re-read on. It is odd, and is something that's attributable to scum, but on the other hand, it's a little too obvious. I keep wanting to say things like "Wouldn't scum be more careful than that?" because that's such an obviously scummy thing, and I'm worried that I'm overthinking it. But I do think that scum!mail-mi would be more careful.
The middle two paragraphs of a big post from nkirbit are just a pile of unnecessary hedgy stuff. Like, I have no idea what his conclusion from all this could possibly be. Just trying to point out the multiple things that we could be thinking about?
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
I didn't say anything about the power existing. And if mentioning stealing reveals that it exists as a power (which it doesn't), then you'd have to find TA scummy for that for being the first to say it.
You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..." That's exactly what you said. Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].
How do you know they could get one? That's my question.
This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him? Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
I agree with this. mail-mi asked a possibly identical or at least super-similar question in...was is MeanGirls or RMM7. I don't remember, but it was one of those games I was a mod for, and mail-mi was town in both. The resemblence immediately feels suspicious.
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Anyways, obviously there will be similarities, I did try to emulate my town self in that game.. and after all we are the same person still!
Eevee, who is the 'we' you are talking about here?
Sorry, my english gets really bad when I'm tired. I'm still the same person! Me me me.
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sb has been extremely quiet - came back to apologize to Ahoppy and that was it. We don't want you to quit sb, we want to play and have fun!
Second!
Yes, this!
Sorry. I'm trying to catch up. And I really really really hate to pull a robz but I don't trust my reads prior to my meltdown. I need to reevaluate. But from whst so have reread so far (damn this toooooooooo many pages!), I still read efhw and Raerse as town and I don't buy the case in Eevee...he seems like town!eevee to me. Nk sheeping TA's reads worries me, and I want to trust ash....but am scared of being burned again...this could easily be scum!ash leading us down a path of self destruction
Shrae...so don't get why TA and Nk continue to bag on me for this...early in The game, I see his pushing a weak case as a problem and I vote it and call him out....I just dont see how that's scummy....I'm not going off the hook here, but that case is still a bad one on me and nk and TA should have to answer for pushing it....
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
I've got nothing. If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.
Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.
Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...
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Ahoppy: For a while, I had him as my top scumread. He was around, but engaged only in theory talk, and would give reads soon after players started to pile pressure on him for not having many reads. I went back and re-read him in Mean Girls, where he was town, and his play was pretty similar to here. He was slightly more active here, but in Mean Girls he didn't build cases anymore. His actions here fit with his actions in mean girls. I'm still slightly worried, as he has been active here, but much less so than before. Slight scum read.
Ashersky: He's been very protown, but I think he might be able to fake that well. He certainly faked it well when he was a watcher in mean girls (Note: Wasn't actually a watcher in mean girls). I recently have issues with differences between how he pursued mail-mi's lynch, but was reluctant to do the same with Xeiron, despite them having very similar metas and similar cases. If Xeiron eventually flips scum, or mail-mi town, this would be something to keep in mind. I also am uncomfortable with how he found Mail-mi scummy for reacting to his jokes about watching in mean girls... it seems like it could have been a trap. But, Xeiron hasn't flipped scum, and mail-mi hasn't flipped town, and he has been a leading force in moving the game forward, so for now, a slightly town read.
Chairs: Very towny. I think his claim is newbie town. See my post #668 if you want more in-depth reasoning. Big town read.
Eevee: He defended SB, who I think is slightly scummy, and mail-mi, who I don't think is that scummy. He defended from Ashersky well, and had good answers to all his points. He's been very open and pro-town, and I have no reason to think that's a facade at this point. Town read.
EFHW: Not really a strong opinion here. Her early argument with Shraeye is a null on both sides to me. I actually can't remember her specific views.. perhaps a re-read is in order soon. Null for now.
Mail-Mi: Has done a few things that have been scummy (the flip-flop on Eevee, asking who to reread), but I don't actually have a huge concern here. The biggest thing is the inconsistent explanation of his vote for Eevee, which was just really odd. He was voting Eevee for inactivity, moved off to ash, revoted for Eevee for inactivity and "feeling off" or something like that, then explaining his vote as being purely for inactivity. It's inconsistent, for sure.
The Eevee thing is all I really have serious problems with. I wouldn't be shocked if he were scum, but I think we can do better.
Slight scum read.
Raerae: Not much recently at all. My town-read from before was based on the fact that she broke up the shraeye-EFHW argument, which was very similar to how she broke up TA and myself in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be town. Town read, but I'd like to see her back and contributing more, along with,
Shraeye: Not much recently either! I had a null-read on him before, and still don't have any reason to think he's scum or town. It is important to note that he was the first one to put us on the track towards lynching inactive players, and at the time gave a list of players that he would not consider lynching. As players start flipping, I think we should keep in mind the categories he listed players as and see if we can detect any patterns. Null read.
Spiritbears: His main stance this game was supporting EFHW as towny as Shraeye as scummy. If I'm remembering correctly, the only stated reason for supporting EFHW is that she was saying a lot of things he agreed with. This SB-EFHW connection is something to keep in mind. What's odd here for SB is that I don't at all know why Shraeye is (was?) a scum-read for him. He never gave us a reason! He put some effort into pushing Shraeye, for example asking Theorel if he was okay with Shraeye pushing a weak case. Placing a vote on someone, pushing for it, but never explaining why you think that player is scummy is off, and scummy.
I don't at all buy the argument that SB's aggressive defense is towny, either. People say that the last time he did this, he was town... well, yeah, but as town he has also not been this aggressive. I think it's possible that SB could be aggressive when pushed regardless of alignment when pushed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the defense here, but I don't buy it as of now. Scum read.
Theorel: Missing for so long. Was dead null before his absence, and even more null now. As null as it gets.
TwistedArcher: Initially, I had a feeling that he was "off". But looking back, I'm not 100% sure why. He drove a case fairly hard against SB, which is exactly the same thing he did Day1 in Shakespeare against myself, Day2 in Pirates against mail-mi, etc. He may or may not be right, but town!TA builds cases like that. He's asking good questions, participating actively, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things he says lately. I don't have any reasons to think he's scum at this point. Town read.
Xeiron: I think how he responded to Ash's case on raerae by voting raerae was scummy. He made so many assumptions when giving his reasoning.. that ash *might* be a town member who *might* be insinuating that he *might* have info on raerae. What?? And then he comes on and gives Theorel's math a challenge, that's also bad and appears like he didn't impartially read the post.
My only concern is the 12 post thing. This is my least favorite part about forum mafia.. when you play in real life, everyone is there, and you can ask them anything at any time. Here, we have to play around people's availabilities, and participation is very self-driven. I think it is quite possible that town!Xeiron is disinterested. But I still think we have a better case on him than anyone else, and he's my preferred lynch. Scum read.
So you bang on people for supporting me beause I'm a "slight scum read", but then your analysis of me is that I'm totally scummy (based on TA's false claim I had no reason to vote shraeye)?!
This has the markings of scum msnipulation.However, I agree with lynching background players day one and despite my scum reads of you and TA, I'm not going to vote to lynch either one day one because I don't think either is background (although nk is close)
unvote (if I havemt already)
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So ash, can I have some questions to answer to prove I'm not scum?
Somehow this feels fake to me. How could there be a question that would prove anything right now?
I agree eevee, but remember last game when he asked this right before we mislynched him? Kindof i think hé is wanting us to think of that though....
I agree with this. mail-mi asked a possibly identical or at least super-similar question in...was is MeanGirls or RMM7. I don't remember, but it was one of those games I was a mod for, and mail-mi was town in both. The resemblence immediately feels suspicious.
It was mean girls...and right before we mislynched him when his lynch was all but assured. I'm sure he wants us remembering that!
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I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
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Wow, this thread was busy over the weekend.
I'm generally less available over the weekend. Sometimes I get an hour here or there, sometimes not (depends on who puts the boy down for his nap...) This weekend I was on a little on Saturday but not much was going on, and I didn't have anything to say.
I just read the ~14 pages, and am trying to synthesize it. Would love to see a vote count...
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
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Unofficial Vote Count
shraeye (2) EFHW, theorel
Twistedarcher (1) chairs
xeiron (4) shraeye, mail-mi, nkirbit, raerae
spiritbears (1) Twistedarcher
efhw (1) ashersky
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy, spiritbears, Eevee
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
If X hadn't posted I would be voting him now. But I'm not sure what to do with this latest set of posts. It's a weird reaction to the wagon that's developed on him, in words he's ignoring it. But he's essentially saying, "hey guys, leave me alive until I can communicate my super-secret awesome plan to someone else." Which would mean leaving him alive until tomorrow night (since he'd need to develop communication ability which would not be usable until the following night, unless I'm misunderstanding the mechanics). I'm always somewhat hesitant to take any plan that only works when scum is unaware of it at face value. (They may need to be unaware of the people involved, such as who the cop is, but generally a good plan can withstand scum being aware of the plan). Yeah, if anything this seems survivalist, I'm going to move forward with the vote.
Oh, and I think I finally understand my scum-read. It's not significant, but he basically called me out for not scumhunting, in the midst of a post where I was trying to understand player interactions, due to a calculation that I made. Meanwhile, he was NOT scumhunting (except arguably by pointing out a supposed scumslip I made). I understand that different players have different approaches, but his calling me out on it seems insincere given his own lack of any apparent scumhunting, excepting a couple town reads. He says raerae isn't his strongest scum-read, but I have yet to see a scum-read from him (other than a problem with my post, when I was previously a town-read for him...not sure if I switched to a scum-read, he didn't really specify). In short, Xeiron seems more interested in challenging others for failing to scumhunt than scumhunting himself.
Vote: Xeiron
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I dont think xeiron is mafia. If this is a scum ploy, man, it's very clever, but it sounds very genuine. I'm not sure I agree with his plan and support nolynching though, seems like a huge leap of faith.
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Yeah I'm not down with nolynch. Even if it's me on the block
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
I've got nothing. If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.
Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.
Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...
Spiritbears, I get that the case seems obviously incorrect to you (it should if you're town!), but the thing is, if you're town, no other town member knows that! You have to prove to us that we're town, since we have as much reason to suspect you as anymore else in the game. Calling the case pathetic, without answer the question, does nothing to appease the case itself, and in most cases is more likely to make people think it's more likely that you are indeed scum.
I have been pushing your case (I would argue that I'm being aggressive) because you have yet to answer my questions, which I have made directly at you, instead arguing that my case is obviously wrong. To me, it's not obviously wrong! Even if you think I'm being ridiculous, terribly wrong, and misguided in accusing you, which of course is a possibility, you have a vested interest in trying to convince me that I'm wrong, and showing me where and why I'm wrong. Just saying my case is ridiculous and pathetic doesn't do this, in any way. If you really are town, you are doing nothing to discredit the case by simply calling it wrong -- you have to prove to me, and to everyone else, WHY it's wrong.
Until you answer these questions, I will continue to have a scum read on you, and continue to push for your lynch. I thought you were scummy when I made the case, even if it's a D1 case and not the strongest one, and I will continue to think you are scummy until I have a good reason not to. Continually calling my case weak is not a good reason to give you a more towny read -- it's something that you would do as both scum and town, in my opinion.
The questions I'd like answered:
Why did you have a town read on EFHW?
Why did you support her point of view over Shraeye in the EFHW / Shraeye argument?
What are your current reads on both EFHW and Shraeye?
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I would argue that I'm NOT being aggressive**
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I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
1) I am 100% against no-lynch. I would lynch anyone else in the game over no-lynch.
2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
ii) If you are not able to execute this 'plan' yourself, since you need to be able to write someone, are you sure that two people will be able to execute the plan?
iii) There's the chance that you write scum during the night, give away a LOT of information, and your plan will fail, since you're depending on scum to execute it.
iv) You simply may be misunderstanding your role, the setup information, your item, combinations, etc. etc. etc. I don't know how you could possibly have enough information to have a plan that will win town the game D1. I know I certainly don't, and I highly doubt that there's a foolproof plan that will win the game. I don't know if you seriously think there is one (you certainly went overboard on the speculation in Shakespeare), but I'm pretty sure that there's no "plan" you could possibly make D1 to hand town a certain win.
3) As to whether this makes you scummy...ugh, I don't know. If you ARE scum, giving you pen and paper certainly doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world, provided that all it does is let you send a message (which would seem obvious). But, the real upside for you, is that you survive, and if we let you survive on the basis of this 'plan', you'll survive the lynch tomorrow, as well.
This is either a gambit by scum, or overspeculation by a townmember. Given that we JUST lynched Xeiron D1 for overspeculation as a townmember in a RMM game...I'd lean the second. But he could know this, and is doing the same again now. I don't know, this lessens my read a bit, but I think I'd still lynch Xeiron up against a deadline.
Can't we just lynch Spiritbears instead?
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Xeiron, how much of your plan is based on knowledge, and how much is based on speculation? Can you give us a rough estimate here?
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
What's your read on Xeiron, SB? Would you be okay lynching him?
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I still think you all should consider spiritbears. I still have yet to hear a good defense from spiritbears, or from anyone else for that matter. Every time I bring it up no one answers :(
I've got nothing. If it gets down to it, and he's on the chopping block, I won't stop it.
Seems like we've got several people in this position, but no one other than me (and maybe Nkirbit and Ahoppy) willing to push the wagon.
Would it help people consider it if I posted the case again? I'll look elsewhere (probably at Xeiron) if necessary, but I would really like to get the SB wagon going, I really do think he's by far the likeliest to turn up scum.
Of course you want to push a town lynch with that pathetic "case"....
I think it should be noted how agrrssive you continue to be towards me. Despite my contributions to this game...(whether you think they are positive eor not)...
Spiritbears, I get that the case seems obviously incorrect to you (it should if you're town!), but the thing is, if you're town, no other town member knows that! You have to prove to us that we're town, since we have as much reason to suspect you as anymore else in the game. Calling the case pathetic, without answer the question, does nothing to appease the case itself, and in most cases is more likely to make people think it's more likely that you are indeed scum.
I have been pushing your case (I would argue that I'm being aggressive) because you have yet to answer my questions, which I have made directly at you, instead arguing that my case is obviously wrong. To me, it's not obviously wrong! Even if you think I'm being ridiculous, terribly wrong, and misguided in accusing you, which of course is a possibility, you have a vested interest in trying to convince me that I'm wrong, and showing me where and why I'm wrong. Just saying my case is ridiculous and pathetic doesn't do this, in any way. If you really are town, you are doing nothing to discredit the case by simply calling it wrong -- you have to prove to me, and to everyone else, WHY it's wrong.
Until you answer these questions, I will continue to have a scum read on you, and continue to push for your lynch. I thought you were scummy when I made the case, even if it's a D1 case and not the strongest one, and I will continue to think you are scummy until I have a good reason not to. Continually calling my case weak is not a good reason to give you a more towny read -- it's something that you would do as both scum and town, in my opinion.
The questions I'd like answered:
Why did you have a town read on EFHW?
Why did you support her point of view over Shraeye in the EFHW / Shraeye argument?
What are your current reads on both EFHW and Shraeye?
I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
What's your read on Xeiron, SB? Would you be okay lynching him?
Why don't you answer that question?
Lots of questions from you...very little in the way of reads
I'm uncertain of x...his latest manuever seems desperate but weird. Maybe weird town. I would be more in favor of ahop, but I'm willing to listen on x (either way)
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially? He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
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TA is without a doubt scum. What has he done the entire game except tunnel me? Oh that's right, another bad case...
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially? He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
Let me get this right...you defend scum and tunnel town eh?
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TA is without a doubt scum. What has he done the entire game except tunnel me? Oh that's right, another bad case...
If you read the thread, I'm sure you will find a lot I've done D1. Just because I've had you as my top read for most of the day does not mean I haven't been forming other reads and commenting on other cases.
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially? He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
Let me get this right...you defend scum and tunnel town eh?
Once again, if Nkirbit is town, and you are town, he DOES NOT KNOW YOU ARE TOWN!!!!
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially? He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
Let me get this right...you defend scum and tunnel town eh?
What? Who am I even defending here? I'm just saying if you think Ash's case is based on EFHW being the one to bring up the possibility, you're wrong, because that's not his case.
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I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
No, everytime I've asked these questions, you have said "I don't need to answer them, your case is so obviously ridiculously and wrong!!"
If you HAVE answered them, please quote the answers. It's a long thread, and I looked and didn't find them. Regardless, why is answering them again if you're town such a bad thing. Shouldn't you WANT to prove to me you're town.
Just because a person makes a case on you, even if you're town, DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON SCUM. You have a scum read on me based simply on the fact that I made a case on you. THAT'S tunneling, not my case. I looked at everything in the thread, noticed what you were saying was scummy, and brought it to everyone's attention, cause I think you're more than likely scum. But I've still been looking at other people. Just because I make a case and push it does not mean I'm tunneling, and it does not mean I'm scum. It's part of the game, dude.
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TA is without a doubt scum. What has he done the entire game except tunnel me? Oh that's right, another bad case...
If you read the thread, I'm sure you will find a lot I've done D1. Just because I've had you as my top read for most of the day does not mean I haven't been forming other reads and commenting on other cases.
Nothing memorable. At all
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
What's your read on Xeiron, SB? Would you be okay lynching him?
Why don't you answer that question?
Lots of questions from you...very little in the way of reads
I'm uncertain of x...his latest manuever seems desperate but weird. Maybe weird town. I would be more in favor of ahop, but I'm willing to listen on x (either way)
Are you kidding? I made an entire list of my reads. I've defended players. I've accused others. I've supported some cases. I've not supported others. I have seen no such list from you.
Oh yeah, my answer to the question, literally 3 posts before this one:
"3) As to whether this makes you[Xeiron] scummy...ugh, I don't know. If you ARE scum, giving you pen and paper certainly doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world, provided that all it does is let you send a message (which would seem obvious). But, the real upside for you, is that you survive, and if we let you survive on the basis of this 'plan', you'll survive the lynch tomorrow, as well.
This is either a gambit by scum, or overspeculation by a townmember. Given that we JUST lynched Xeiron D1 for overspeculation as a townmember in a RMM game...I'd lean the second. But he could know this, and is doing the same again now. I don't know, this lessens my read a bit, but I think I'd still lynch Xeiron up against a deadline."
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TA is without a doubt scum. What has he done the entire game except tunnel me? Oh that's right, another bad case...
If you read the thread, I'm sure you will find a lot I've done D1. Just because I've had you as my top read for most of the day does not mean I haven't been forming other reads and commenting on other cases.
Nothing memorable. At all
I'd disagree, and I think others would as well.
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I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
No, everytime I've asked these questions, you have said "I don't need to answer them, your case is so obviously ridiculously and wrong!!"
If you HAVE answered them, please quote the answers. It's a long thread, and I looked and didn't find them. Regardless, why is answering them again if you're town such a bad thing. Shouldn't you WANT to prove to me you're town.
Just because a person makes a case on you, even if you're town, DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON SCUM. You have a scum read on me based simply on the fact that I made a case on you. THAT'S tunneling, not my case. I looked at everything in the thread, noticed what you were saying was scummy, and brought it to everyone's attention, cause I think you're more than likely scum. But I've still been looking at other people. Just because I make a case and push it does not mean I'm tunneling, and it does not mean I'm scum. It's part of the game, dude.
It's not a case when it's composed entirely of lies. And you sir are the definition of tunneling. How many posts now have you complained "can't we just lynch sb".
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I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
No, everytime I've asked these questions, you have said "I don't need to answer them, your case is so obviously ridiculously and wrong!!"
If you HAVE answered them, please quote the answers. It's a long thread, and I looked and didn't find them. Regardless, why is answering them again if you're town such a bad thing. Shouldn't you WANT to prove to me you're town.
Just because a person makes a case on you, even if you're town, DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON SCUM. You have a scum read on me based simply on the fact that I made a case on you. THAT'S tunneling, not my case. I looked at everything in the thread, noticed what you were saying was scummy, and brought it to everyone's attention, cause I think you're more than likely scum. But I've still been looking at other people. Just because I make a case and push it does not mean I'm tunneling, and it does not mean I'm scum. It's part of the game, dude.
It's not a case when it's composed entirely of lies. And you sir are the definition of tunneling. How many posts now have you complained "can't we just lynch sb".
I don't know they're not composed of lies, though! It's reads. This is mafia. We read people. We make cases. We accuse people. Just because the cases are potentially wrong doesn't mean that they are lies. If you think they are lies, keep in mind, you are the only one who knows that, and no one else knows that. You have to CONVINCE us they are lies.
How many posts have I complained "can't we just lynch sb"? Certainly a decent amount. How many posts HAVEN'T I said that? A LOT.
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This doesn't look like a scumslip to me. Why did I end up reading at least a page worth of posts about semantics? It looks pretty apparent that EFHW is talking about the possibility of something happening, and it looks like speculation, not knowledge.
I disagree. That's all.
I don't get why you would find efhw scummy for discussinG something TA brought up! That seems to have gotten lost in your semantics debate...
Why does it matter that TA brought it up initially? He's not finding EFHW scummy because she brought up the possibility, he's finding EFHW scummy because he thinks EFHW is talking about it not like it's a possibility, but like she already has info that such a power is in the game.
Let me get this right...you defend scum and tunnel town eh?
What? Who am I even defending here? I'm just saying if you think Ash's case is based on EFHW being the one to bring up the possibility, you're wrong, because that's not his case.
Why are you trying to draw meaningless distinctions? Discussing theory is in one way ok, and in Another not!?
No this is s bad case and you are wrong to defend it
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Spiritbears, this is a game about making cases and convincing people that your point of view is correct.
I built a case on you, because I think you're scum. It's not "lies", I backed up exactly why I think it's likely you're scum. It may certainly be wrong, and it may not be the greatest case, but it's also not patently false and ridiculous, either. Others have seen merit in it.
If you think the case is wrong (and if you're town, you KNOW it's wrong), you have to convince us why! Simply saying it's composed of lies does nothing -- if you were scum, you would say that as well! You have to look at the case, tell us why it's wrong, tell us what wrong assumptions I'm making, what reasoning I'm making that I shouldn't be making, etc. Simply calling the case wrong and full of lies does nothing to disprove the case.
Please, please, try to disprove the case. Simply calling it wrong does not do this. Simply calling it lies does not do this. You need to look at the case itself, and argue the points I make! You are not doing this, you are simply calling it all lies and slander and saying that I'm obviously lying scum trying to wrong you and aggressively push your lynch.
If I mistakingly came up with this case, can you see how nothing you've done could dissuade me from thinking you're scum? You have yet to answer anything, other than simply calling it lies and calling me aggressive. How in the world would that possibly dissuade me from my originial, unrefuted case?
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I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
No, everytime I've asked these questions, you have said "I don't need to answer them, your case is so obviously ridiculously and wrong!!"
If you HAVE answered them, please quote the answers. It's a long thread, and I looked and didn't find them. Regardless, why is answering them again if you're town such a bad thing. Shouldn't you WANT to prove to me you're town.
Just because a person makes a case on you, even if you're town, DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON SCUM. You have a scum read on me based simply on the fact that I made a case on you. THAT'S tunneling, not my case. I looked at everything in the thread, noticed what you were saying was scummy, and brought it to everyone's attention, cause I think you're more than likely scum. But I've still been looking at other people. Just because I make a case and push it does not mean I'm tunneling, and it does not mean I'm scum. It's part of the game, dude.
It's not a case when it's composed entirely of lies. And you sir are the definition of tunneling. How many posts now have you complained "can't we just lynch sb".
I don't know they're not composed of lies, though! It's reads. This is mafia. We read people. We make cases. We accuse people. Just because the cases are potentially wrong doesn't mean that they are lies. If you think they are lies, keep in mind, you are the only one who knows that, and no one else knows that. You have to CONVINCE us they are lies.
How many posts have I complained "can't we just lynch sb"? Certainly a decent amount. How many posts HAVEN'T I said that? A LOT.
That is just a terrible lie. You know for certain that you are pushing lies about me, because they aren't based on speculation, they are based on your twisting the facts. The facts are that I have said why I believed efhw (ahop even quoted it). The rest of your so-called case is that town can't possibly believe efhw or side with her in the shrae disagreement. That has already been completely discredited.
So tunnel away. But don't think for one second I'm going to let you push your lies without standing up for myself
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Dude, have you like played a mafia game before?
This is beyond frustrating. I made a case like 20 pages ago, the player in question has refused to answer the questions I brought up, and we're not considering lynching that player? Seriously?
Here's the case, in a nutshell. Infact, Ahoppy summarized it better than I have, so I'll quote him:
"Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents."
The EFHW interaction is what's weirdest to me. Even if you have already answered this (and I have searched multiple times and don't think you have!), don't you think it's in your benefit to state again why, so you can convince me (or other people, since you're sooooooooooo convinced I'm scum) that you're not scum?
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Dude, have you like played a mafia game before?
This is beyond frustrating. I made a case like 20 pages ago, the player in question has refused to answer the questions I brought up, and we're not considering lynching that player? Seriously?
Here's the case, in a nutshell. Infact, Ahoppy summarized it better than I have, so I'll quote him:
"Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents."
The EFHW interaction is what's weirdest to me. Even if you have already answered this (and I have searched multiple times and don't think you have!), don't you think it's in your benefit to state again why, so you can convince me (or other people, since you're sooooooooooo convinced I'm scum) that you're not scum?
You're frustrated becaue I just shot your case down?!? How about an apology?
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And just to out the nail in it....your ash point was completely discredited as well...don't know why you are still pushing that line
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SB, it would clearly be in town's best interest for you to address this:
"Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents."
The EFHW interaction is what's weirdest to me. Even if you have already answered this (and I have searched multiple times and don't think you have!), don't you think it's in your benefit to state again why, so you can convince me (or other people, since you're sooooooooooo convinced I'm scum) that you're not scum?
You've got to get over the fact that you'll sometimes be attacked falsely in these games. I think TA's case looks reasonable, and trying to get people to lynch your top scum read is good town play. No one will be able to only make cases on scum, especially day 1, so you've got to consider this from the "what if TA is town" angle too.
TA, no need for frustration, your voice is being heard. I don't think it's a slam dunk case, and you are kind of getting carried away with it, but I see where you are coming from.
You are talking past each other so much that it's hard to analyze this. I'm getting a towny feel from TA, though.
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And just to out the nail in it....your ash point was completely discredited as well...don't know why you are still pushing that line
'
SB, I don't know the answers to either of those points. Could you please restate them? Would help with analyzing the situation!
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Dude, have you like played a mafia game before?
This is beyond frustrating. I made a case like 20 pages ago, the player in question has refused to answer the questions I brought up, and we're not considering lynching that player? Seriously?
Here's the case, in a nutshell. Infact, Ahoppy summarized it better than I have, so I'll quote him:
"Twistedarcher's case is that he finds it odd that SB votes shraeye with very little evidence and believes EFHW. Also, spiritbears keeps his vote on ash even after ash has said his raerae vote was for reactions. SB even gets upset that people aren't looking at ash. This is the case that TA presents."
The EFHW interaction is what's weirdest to me. Even if you have already answered this (and I have searched multiple times and don't think you have!), don't you think it's in your benefit to state again why, so you can convince me (or other people, since you're sooooooooooo convinced I'm scum) that you're not scum?
You're frustrated becaue I just shot your case down?!? How about an apology?
I will NOT apologize to you. I have done NOTHING wrong. I have tried to be reasonable. You have responded by accusing me of lying, being pretentious, ridiculous, etc. All I wanted was a damn answer to a case. A case which is reasonable, BECAUSE WE ARE PLAYING A GAME OF MAFIA. You have yet to answer my case. Ever. I think we're setting a ridiculous precedent by letting players answer cases with emotion instead of with reason.
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Im not answering with émotion. I answered your "case" straight up....but just like all game ling you ignored it
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Im not answering with émotion. I answered your "case" straight up....but just like all game ling you ignored it
I'm not seeing your rebuttal either. It would be very helpful if you could restate it. :)
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I did answer these questions (except the last one) I don't have to repeat myself for your satisfaction. That you keep claiming I didn't is a flat out lie...and remains my number one reason for you being scum
As for question 3, I am not in favor of lynching either. As both are not hiding in the background. I did have a scum read on shrae earlier (you would know this if you wetent tunneling a bad case)...but I'm null-town now. Efhw is town. I don't think ash is right about any "scumslip" when have we ever been right about scumslip?!?! Except when robz made a horrible mistake. It just doesn't happen often and more often it's town we jump on for the supposed slip.
So go ahead tunnel away
I will continue to call out your aggressive when you push lies and call them a case
No, everytime I've asked these questions, you have said "I don't need to answer them, your case is so obviously ridiculously and wrong!!"
If you HAVE answered them, please quote the answers. It's a long thread, and I looked and didn't find them. Regardless, why is answering them again if you're town such a bad thing. Shouldn't you WANT to prove to me you're town.
Just because a person makes a case on you, even if you're town, DOES NOT MAKE THAT PERSON SCUM. You have a scum read on me based simply on the fact that I made a case on you. THAT'S tunneling, not my case. I looked at everything in the thread, noticed what you were saying was scummy, and brought it to everyone's attention, cause I think you're more than likely scum. But I've still been looking at other people. Just because I make a case and push it does not mean I'm tunneling, and it does not mean I'm scum. It's part of the game, dude.
It's not a case when it's composed entirely of lies. And you sir are the definition of tunneling. How many posts now have you complained "can't we just lynch sb".
I don't know they're not composed of lies, though! It's reads. This is mafia. We read people. We make cases. We accuse people. Just because the cases are potentially wrong doesn't mean that they are lies. If you think they are lies, keep in mind, you are the only one who knows that, and no one else knows that. You have to CONVINCE us they are lies.
How many posts have I complained "can't we just lynch sb"? Certainly a decent amount. How many posts HAVEN'T I said that? A LOT.
That is just a terrible lie. You know for certain that you are pushing lies about me, because they aren't based on speculation, they are based on your twisting the facts. The facts are that I have said why I believed efhw (ahop even quoted it). The rest of your so-called case is that town can't possibly believe efhw or side with her in the shrae disagreement. That has already been completely discredited.
So tunnel away. But don't think for one second I'm going to let you push your lies without standing up for myself
Eevee. This and the fact that his ash objection has been completely discredited as well answer his cske-case entirely...
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I should have just left earlier. But evidently I have ruined not only this game but every other game I'm in.
I'm sorry about that.
But feel free to make me the lynch of today.
I really liked this game dispite the tunneling. I eas excited to see whst I could do with my lens
I was a town watcher and I shared my lens with Theo (sorry I hope that doesn't mess it up for you) I also got s nice phonograph from someone....thank you for your kind gift even though I coukdnt use it with my lens
Night 1 I watched Raerae and she did nothing. It could be because she's town or becise scum woukdnt be smart to delay action till night two...I read her as town
I still think efhw is town and Theo and eevee and I still think Ta is scum. Nk is just confused I think. Ash is misleading everyone.
Goodbye. Thanks for those of you who were kind to me when I didnt deserve it.
/out
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Thread Locked.
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First of all: Sorry that you felt like you needed to /out, SB.
Here's what will happen: Game will continue as normal until I can get a sub in for Spiritbears. Players may still vote for spiritbears, target him with night actions, and his night/day actions may or may not be randomized or controlled by any scumbuddies he may or may not have. Treat him as if he were still in the game, but just very inactive.
Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) everyone. Game on.
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Vote Count 1.10
shraeye (1) EFHW
Twistedarcher (1) chairs
xeiron (5) shraeye, mail-mi, nkirbit, raerae, theorel
spiritbears (1) Twistedarcher
EFHW (1) ashersky
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (3) AHoppy, spiritbears, Eevee
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
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Xeiron, how much of your plan is based on knowledge, and how much is based on speculation? Can you give us a rough estimate here?
There is both, but mostly speculation. I know this is not what you want to hear so I want to make it clear that I have learned from my mistakes in shakespeare. I am not making the same mistakes again.
And I want to make it clear right from the start. This is not a 100% win plan. I give it 80% chance to catch all scum if we nolynch today and tomorrow. If we lynch as normal it might still work. maybee 20-30%?
1) I am 100% against no-lynch. I would lynch anyone else in the game over no-lynch.
There seems to be a consensus on f.ds that no-lynch is always bad. This is unfortunate and I think we should consider no-lynch more often.
2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
ii) If you are not able to execute this 'plan' yourself, since you need to be able to write someone, are you sure that two people will be able to execute the plan?
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
iii) There's the chance that you write scum during the night, give away a LOT of information, and your plan will fail, since you're depending on scum to execute it.
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
iv) You simply may be misunderstanding your role, the setup information, your item, combinations, etc. etc. etc. I don't know how you could possibly have enough information to have a plan that will win town the game D1. I know I certainly don't, and I highly doubt that there's a foolproof plan that will win the game. I don't know if you seriously think there is one (you certainly went overboard on the speculation in Shakespeare), but I'm pretty sure that there's no "plan" you could possibly make D1 to hand town a certain win.
I understand my role perfectly. And I cannot win the game D1. If I could, I would fullclaim now and just get done with it.
3) As to whether this makes you scummy...ugh, I don't know. If you ARE scum, giving you pen and paper certainly doesn't seem like the worst thing in the world, provided that all it does is let you send a message (which would seem obvious). But, the real upside for you, is that you survive, and if we let you survive on the basis of this 'plan', you'll survive the lynch tomorrow, as well.
This is either a gambit by scum, or overspeculation by a townmember. Given that we JUST lynched Xeiron D1 for overspeculation as a townmember in a RMM game...I'd lean the second. But he could know this, and is doing the same again now. I don't know, this lessens my read a bit, but I think I'd still lynch Xeiron up against a deadline.
Neither, I would say speculation, but not overspeculation, by a townmember.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
I believe the claim as well. Theorel can confirm/deny it so there would be no gain in lying.
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So, you KNOW that you cannot be nightkilled, you KNOW that the person you will be writing to is town, and you KNOW that the other person can't be nightkilled?
Can we switch power roles please?
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My main problem with no-lynch is that it severely hinders the ability for wagon analysis, which is one of town's key routes in catching scum.
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Why did you wait until you were under somewhat serious pressure to make this request? It's a lot more believable at that point.
And you specifically need a no lynch?
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It's a lot less believable now, I mean
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Why did you wait until you were under somewhat serious pressure to make this request? It's a lot more believable at that point.
And you specifically need a no lynch?
Oh, this is a really good point. If he's not under pressure, he doesn't request the pen and paper, and the plan doesn't go through. Why would this plan be dependent on him being close to a lynch?
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
I believe the claim as well. Theorel can confirm/deny it so there would be no gain in lying.
Yeah, I can confirm. And, I guess we can leave it at that?
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Oh, and I think I finally understand my scum-read. It's not significant, but he basically called me out for not scumhunting, in the midst of a post where I was trying to understand player interactions, due to a calculation that I made. Meanwhile, he was NOT scumhunting (except arguably by pointing out a supposed scumslip I made). I understand that different players have different approaches, but his calling me out on it seems insincere given his own lack of any apparent scumhunting, excepting a couple town reads. He says raerae isn't his strongest scum-read, but I have yet to see a scum-read from him (other than a problem with my post, when I was previously a town-read for him...not sure if I switched to a scum-read, he didn't really specify). In short, Xeiron seems more interested in challenging others for failing to scumhunt than scumhunting himself.
Vote: Xeiron
I am not calling you out for not scumhuting. I am calling you out for making some assumtions and errors in a calculation that I find scum more likely than town to make. I was unsure how reliable my case was so I brought it up as questions to you, without voting. Your answer made me statisfied that your calculation made sense as town so I dropped it.
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If SB is a watcher, and he watched Raerae, it should have returned himself at the very least, right?
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
I had and still have no clear scumreads. That is why I did not vote. This lack of scumreads is part of why I want to no-lynch ( the other part is that it enables more information later in the game)
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Hmm, so we have sb and I think theorel almost confirmed town, this is a huge boon for town, isn't it? Of course they could be not town, but I think for today's purposes we can treat them as such.
I think xeiron is probably town, his plan is too out there for scum. Nkirbit was a town read from earlier, don't see a reason to deviate from that. Don't want to lynch TA, town read and is active and helpful.
Left with raerae and shraeye (both reacted way too strongly when called out for not being here, by the way. it was unreasonable to do so, but clearly not mean-spirited. a lot has happened in game time with no input from you two), EFHW and ashersky (they have interesting interactions), mail-mi, chairs and Ahoppy.
Should reread Ahoppy, I remember absolutely nothing from him which is a huuge scum tell this late.
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
I had and still have no clear scumreads. That is why I did not vote. This lack of scumreads is part of why I want to no-lynch ( the other part is that it enables more information later in the game)
The thing about the no lynch is that everyone else in the town loses information, since we have less flips and less wagons. It may give you more information since the game goes on longer and apparently your role provides you information, but I'm not sure I'm willing to have one person have all the information that town has, especially when it's a player I find scummy.
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I've been really back and forth on this, but I think it's best for the game as a whole. I'm really sorry that something like this needs to happen, but I believe it's the best course of action to keeping this game running smoothly. If you want to voice any concerns over this, feel free to PM me. Again, really sorry for all alignments, but I want to make sure everyone has a fun and fair game.
spiritbears, one of the company's most favored employees, was going crazy with claustrophobia from being cooped up in the building. "Just let me out!" He would scream, pounding against the front door. As much as people respected it, he'd taken it a bit too far.
Archetype trudged over to him. You want out? Then you're out. He unlocked the front door and shoved spiritbears through it. With a tear in his eye, he watched as spiritbears, otherwise known as John Dolland the Town-aligned Tracker walked away. He has been modkilled.
Day will continue as normal. SB's death does NOT mark the end of the day.
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Well, so he was a tracker, not a watcher. Interesting that Raerae didn't target someone N0.
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Okay.
So, we know raerae targeted no one last night. I don't think that has any bearing with alignments whatsoever, pretty null. Theorel's connection to spirit is interesting, but I think we shouldn't discuss it further. I would assume theorel would have already built a lie confirming him as town if he was scum, I'll leave it at that.
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2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
Normally, the reason you don't have a cop claim in a game is so that he doesn't immediately get NKed, right? (Or at the very least roleblocked). If that isn't an issue here, which Xeiron doesn't seem to think it is, is it reasonable for Xeiron to claim more information to make him claim believable? I'm sure some people will disagree with me, since they're unilaterally against any sort of claiming, but can someone convince me why it would be a bad idea for Xeiron to claim more?
Don't claim more yet, Xeiron.. I want to hear people's advice on it.
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
I had and still have no clear scumreads. That is why I did not vote. This lack of scumreads is part of why I want to no-lynch ( the other part is that it enables more information later in the game)
The thing about the no lynch is that everyone else in the town loses information, since we have less flips and less wagons. It may give you more information since the game goes on longer and apparently your role provides you information, but I'm not sure I'm willing to have one person have all the information that town has, especially when it's a player I find scummy.
So you are confirming for us that Xeiron is town?
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We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
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I don't think Theorel is in any way confirmed town from that. All he confirmed is that SB gave him an item, right? I mean, SB could have just as easily given scum an item.
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
I had and still have no clear scumreads. That is why I did not vote. This lack of scumreads is part of why I want to no-lynch ( the other part is that it enables more information later in the game)
The thing about the no lynch is that everyone else in the town loses information, since we have less flips and less wagons. It may give you more information since the game goes on longer and apparently your role provides you information, but I'm not sure I'm willing to have one person have all the information that town has, especially when it's a player I find scummy.
So you are confirming for us that Xeiron is town?
No, I don't know that Xeiron is town. That's why I'm uncomfortable with him having all the information.
If I knew Xeiron was a superpowerful unkillable player who can solve the game in a couple of nights, and I could actually confirm that, I would be all for his plan. But I don't know that. I'm saying that if we follow Xeiron's plan, no town other than Xeiron will have much information... therefore Xeiron will have all of town's information.
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We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
Why not?
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Nkirbit, I meant it in a "So you have more information on Xeiron's alignment" ie, you're scum kinda way!
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Assuming there aren't 18 new pages again, I would be fine with the proposed deadline. Would lynch TA, X, or chairs. Seeing as how that chairs lynch just ain't gonna happen, I'm going with X for not voting for a null-read over a scumread. I'm going to bed now. Then I'm going to work. Then I'm going to pack. So, let me just announce to the entire thread that I will be v/la for 18 to 20 hours. I will update you on bathroom breaks as needed.
Vote: Xeiron
I had and still have no clear scumreads. That is why I did not vote. This lack of scumreads is part of why I want to no-lynch ( the other part is that it enables more information later in the game)
The thing about the no lynch is that everyone else in the town loses information, since we have less flips and less wagons. It may give you more information since the game goes on longer and apparently your role provides you information, but I'm not sure I'm willing to have one person have all the information that town has, especially when it's a player I find scummy.
So you are confirming for us that Xeiron is town?
No, I don't know that Xeiron is town. That's why I'm uncomfortable with him having all the information.
If I knew Xeiron was a superpowerful unkillable player who can solve the game in a couple of nights, and I could actually confirm that, I would be all for his plan. But I don't know that. I'm saying that if we follow Xeiron's plan, no town other than Xeiron will have much information... therefore Xeiron will have all of town's information.
You're going to have the same problem with this, I suppose.
no town other than Xeiron (if Xeiron is town) will have much information... therefore Xeiron will have all of town's information (if he is town). If he's not town, town has no information. That's why I'm against this.
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Nkirbit, I meant it in a "So you have more information on Xeiron's alignment" ie, you're scum kinda way!
Well, I don't. Sorry to disappoint.
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I'd actually be more open to no-lynch now that SB has been killed. I think it may be the most fair course of action for both town and scum, anyways..
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We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
Why not?
Why yes?
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Ohhh, my bad. I the post so that he shared something with theorel as per his role pm (like a masonry), nevermind. Theorel is obviously as possible as anyone else still.
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We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
Why not?
Why yes?
Normally, when a player has a role such as a cop or something, the reason for not claiming is because if they claimed, they will likely be Night Killed.
Here, Xeiron has said that he is not worried about being night killed, that he "will or have already taken care of this." So that's one of the reasons that a player wouldn't claim gone.
If he claims, we certainly are able to better establish whether him claim is true or not.
Right now, I'm not buying his claim. He didn't request pen and paper until he already was the main lynch target. If he had such a good plan, why did he wait until he was under pressure to put it into motion? Don't you come forward early day1 with the plan, at the point where you're the most believable?
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unvote, wow that's a lot of stuff to look over. I'll have to think about xeiron's plan and I'll post about it later.
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I think xeiron is best to evaluate whether he should claim or not. I'm skeptical about his plan being worth it..
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I'd actually be more open to no-lynch now that SB has been killed. I think it may be the most fair course of action for both town and scum, anyways..
I agree with this. Now we at parity so the no-lynch does not have as high opputuninty cost
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
If you've already taken care of this, then why do you need the pen and paper? How else were you planning to die if we don't lynch you today?
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
If you've already taken care of this, then why do you need the pen and paper? How else were you planning to die if we don't lynch you today?
The pen and paper are part of my plan. It might or might not be to deal with this point.
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Just not buying Xeiron's plan. Keeping my vote there.
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Right now, I'm not buying his claim. He didn't request pen and paper until he already was the main lynch target. If he had such a good plan, why did he wait until he was under pressure to put it into motion? Don't you come forward early day1 with the plan, at the point where you're the most believable?
I made my plan late day1, and came out with it as soon as I had thought things through, and then thought it through one more time as I do not want to repeat shakespeare.
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My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
2) I'm not sure about your plan working. Basically, to me, it seems like you'd like to be able to send someone a message tomorrow night, and that telling someone your plan will allow it to work. Here are my misgivings, if you're town:
i) There's the chance of you being nightkilled
No problem. I will or have already taken care of this.
If you've already taken care of this, then why do you need the pen and paper? How else were you planning to die if we don't lynch you today?
The pen and paper are part of my plan. It might or might not be to deal with this point.
So the pen and paper aren't for the communication device, then? How were you planning on getting a communication device if you're planning on using the pen and paper elsewhere?
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You clearly requested pen and paper, clearly stated you had interest in building a communication device so you could share your plan should you be killed, clearly stated you weren't worried about being killed at night, and did not request any other way to make a communication device. You have never requested any other tools that would help you build a communication device. It's just coming together a little oddly for me.
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
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Another point -- we know that paper exists, because Chairs claimed it.
But what evidence do we have that pen exists in this game? Xeiron is claiming it does, and asking for it, but have we seen this brought up in thread yet? If he's asking for it, it's definitely not his item, but he claims to know, or at least think, that it exists.
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Another point -- we know that paper exists, because Chairs claimed it.
But what evidence do we have that pen exists in this game? Xeiron is claiming it does, and asking for it, but have we seen this brought up in thread yet? If he's asking for it, it's definitely not his item, but he claims to know, or at least think, that it exists.
Pen has not been brought up in-thread.
I might or might not have more reason than the rest of you to believe it exists.
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You clearly requested pen and paper, clearly stated you had interest in building a communication device so you could share your plan should you be killed, clearly stated you weren't worried about being killed at night, and did not request any other way to make a communication device.
Correct
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
I agree, but the inconsistencies don't seem to be lies, just rather large jumps in logic...which mimics Shakespeare.
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
I agree, but the inconsistencies don't seem to be lies, just rather large jumps in logic...which mimics Shakespeare.
Yes, but in Shakespeare, the jumps were entirely in set up information. Here's what we know about Xeiron so far:
1) He believes he has a way of stopping himself from being NKed.
2) He believes he has a way of knowing specific items are likely in the game.
3) He believes that given a couple of days, he can give us positive cop results, or something like that.
4) He believes he has a way of making sure his message reaches town and not scum
5) He believes he has a way of making sure others can execute his plan even if he dies.
He's claiming a lot of information and a lot of powers. In Shakespeare, he was claiming exclusively about information. I think that is a significant difference.
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
I agree, but the inconsistencies don't seem to be lies, just rather large jumps in logic...which mimics Shakespeare.
True, and I can assure you that I have double-checked my logic this time.
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I can't wait for raerae to come here and comment on all this claiming.
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I can't wait for raerae to come here and comment on all this claiming.
She HAS been gone awhile. Is she V/LA?
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
I agree, but the inconsistencies don't seem to be lies, just rather large jumps in logic...which mimics Shakespeare.
Yes, but in Shakespeare, the jumps were entirely in set up information. Here's what we know about Xeiron so far:
1) He believes he has a way of stopping himself from being NKed.
2) He believes he has a way of knowing specific items are likely in the game.
3) He believes that given a couple of days, he can give us positive cop results, or something like that.
4) He believes he has a way of making sure his message reaches town and not scum
5) He believes he has a way of making sure others can execute his plan even if he dies.
He's claiming a lot of information and a lot of powers. In Shakespeare, he was claiming exclusively about information. I think that is a significant difference.
Okay, this makes a lot of sense. There's no way he'd possibly know all of that. Xeiron, which of these are you claiming and which aren't you claiming?
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Nkirbit, you don't believe his plan, but you still think he's scummy? This is literally the exact same thing we saw in Shakespeare and we lynched him for...
Yeah, it is. And it's possible that's what's going on. There are differences, though. In Shakespeare, he made an unpressured half claim when he said one of Sudgy, TA, and Eevee were likely scum (I believe it was those 3). He didn't make any unpressured claim here.
I agree that it's possible that he's town here, and this is the same story. But I'm very worried about the inconsistencies in his plan.
I agree, but the inconsistencies don't seem to be lies, just rather large jumps in logic...which mimics Shakespeare.
Yes, but in Shakespeare, the jumps were entirely in set up information. Here's what we know about Xeiron so far:
1) He believes he has a way of stopping himself from being NKed.
2) He believes he has a way of knowing specific items are likely in the game.
3) He believes that given a couple of days, he can give us positive cop results, or something like that.
4) He believes he has a way of making sure his message reaches town and not scum
5) He believes he has a way of making sure others can execute his plan even if he dies.
He's claiming a lot of information and a lot of powers. In Shakespeare, he was claiming exclusively about information. I think that is a significant difference.
Okay, this makes a lot of sense. There's no way he'd possibly know all of that. Xeiron, which of these are you claiming and which aren't you claiming?
This is mostly correct, but I want to precisize two things:
2) I have said I believe both the pen and the paper exists. I have not said what type of, if any, speicial information I might have about this or if that extends to other items as well.
5) I have said something like this, but I want to make it clear that I have no way to execute his plan if you lynch me today or tomorrow.
The rest I am claiming.
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Wow, lots to work with here. I've been around today, but not posting because I was working up an analysis of the Eevee/nkirbit relationship which I will summarize in a little bit. But first ...
I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
I believe X is being genuine here. It sounds like he is planning to get two nights worth of info and to record his findings the second night in case he is nk'd that night. I say let him do it. The case on him is pretty weak as it is - just him acting classically "scummy", but nothing compelling. I agree with TA that with the loss of sb, no lynch may be preferable. We would probably end up losing 2 townies today. We've gotten a lot of information even if we don't have wagons. I think this Day will be useful even if we no lynch. I do wonder why a no lynch is necessary for x's plan, but I think let's see how it plays out.
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vote: no lynch
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If what Xeiron is claiming is true, he has a way, way more powerful role than my role. And SB's role. Remarkably more powerful.
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re: nkirbit/Eevee, there are an unusual number of chummy interactions, especially from nkirbit towards Eevee. I don't know what it means, but I thought I'd put the info out there to see if other people have ideas. Along with the nkir/Eevee interactions, I also found Eevee to be back and forth quite a bit about both TA and mail-mi, which may also be important. Post numbers may be approximate.
#497 nkir says will "sheep" Eevee re: sb. #501 nkir asks Ash his opinion of his agreeing with Eevee. #514 nkir challenges Ash re: Eevee vote. #538 nkir challenges mail-mi re: Eevee vote. #543 nkir defends Eevee against Ashershky. #546 nkir explains Eevee's position to mail-mi. #549 nkir agrees with Eevee re: mail-mi. #550 Eevee High 5's nkir, asks what others think about all the agreeing from nkir. #558 Eevee praises nkir for chastising Ahoppy. #559 Eevee defends nkir. #565 nkir says only agreed with Eevee 2 times. #593 nkir asks mail-mi about Eevee vote. #642 Eevee says TA seems "off". #649 nkir votes TA b/c he feels "off", then #650 switches to sb. #667 nkir laughs, says still doesn't understand Eevee b/c of typos. #669 Eevee agrees with nkir. that Chairs is probably town. #710 Eevee praises TA's self-defense. Doesn't know who to vote for, thinks nkir is towny. #714 nkir disagrees with Eevee, thinks pressure on Ashersky is appropriate. #728 Eevee votes TA. #744 nkir shares Eevee's impression of TA and asks Eevee if lynch based on gut feeling is ok. #747 Eevee would vote based on gut. #749 nkir decides not ok to vote based on gut feeling. #723-786 Eevee finds mail-mi scummy but vacillates because mail-mi is always scummy. Seems to shift between accusing and defending mail-mi. #817 Eevee unvotes TA. #819 nkir defends mail-mi along same lines as Eevee.
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If what Xeiron is claiming is true, he has a way, way more powerful role than my role. And SB's role. Remarkably more powerful.
I don't think so. He maybe has a 1 shot deathproof and some investigative power and a messaging power. Not bad, but not unheard of.
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vote: EFHW
I think that's where my vote was, and that is where it will stay.
EFHW's was the first "scum" response to X's claim. "Let's let him do that and see where it goes" means "I'm scum so I'll kill him tonight anyway let's mislynch town today."
I'll respond to the rest, but I'm sold on this case.
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vote: EFHW
I think that's where my vote was, and that is where it will stay.
EFHW's was the first "scum" response to X's claim. "Let's let him do that and see where it goes" means "I'm scum so I'll kill him tonight anyway let's mislynch town today."
But if we follow my plan we no-lynch, so there wont be a mislynch today...
And why do you think only scum and not town would be the the ones joining me?
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vote: EFHW
I think that's where my vote was, and that is where it will stay.
EFHW's was the first "scum" response to X's claim. "Let's let him do that and see where it goes" means "I'm scum so I'll kill him tonight anyway let's mislynch town today."
But if we follow my plan we no-lynch, so there wont be a mislynch today...
And why do you think only scum and not town would be the the ones joining me?
Here's what happens now:
--you survive the day, scum NKs you
So, a few possibilities: doctoring, jailing, strongman, watching...
If town believes you, you become quite a target of opportunity. But then scum will worry about town PRs targeting you. But they need to kill you, or your plan might work...lots of WIFOM and worries there, right?
So normal reactions should be shock, anger, worry, disbelief, suspicion...except from scum, right? EFHW was way too calm.
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As for no-lynching to make sure there's no mislynch...why don't we just no lynch every day? That's not a compelling argument to me.
Part of how we catch scum is killing off town. It's a part of the game. Now, you could argue we got our mislynch with the sb modkill. I disagree.
Here is my proposal:
We reset the game in our minds. This is now a 12 player game with 3 or 4 scum (if there's an SK). We know that raerae did not target anyone during night zero. We know that theorel has a lens. We know there is NO Tracker in the game. The rest is the same.
I do NOT believe the new information regarding raerae and theo clear them in anyway. It was a specific "no kill N0" so we wouldn't have caught scum doing anything anyway.
We also need to remember that no more lens will be available. That's my assumption anyway, given the lens dude is dead. So if you needed a lens for your invention, too bad.
So, think about the other 11 players in the game, and know that maybe up to 35% or so of them are scum. Can you choose basically 1 in 3 to be scum at this point? That's who we should be going for.
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I reread ahoppy and.. there isn't much. He seems to be playing the catch up game all the time, which might explain it, but out of his 45 posts, only two of three longer ones actually touch any players in this game.
He also seems to be playing up his newbienessa bit, especially in the beginning, which some people take as a scum tell.
I don't know, this would be one of the lynches I'd like better than nolynch, but I'm not like super convinced or anything.
Vote: Ahoppy, I encourage a reread on him, it doesn't take very long. He certainly fits the "stays in the back" bill.
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Ash, what do you think of Xeiron? You came back and reviewed other people's opinion of the claim, but never gave your own.
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I'm back from Chicago! :D You've all been exceedingly prolific this weekend, haven't you? And SB... that's an unfortunate situation, there. It reinforces my opinion that TA was the scummier of the two (at the time I made that decision), though at current moment I'm hard-pressed to argue that it's necessarily TA.
I'm sure I'm going to miss some important posts, given the volume, but in my re-reading of the thread here are some posts I found important (sectioning them out):
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I'm still processing all the new posts (sorry I've been missing) and I think that we could safely say that either spiritbears or ta are likely scum. There are potential other options but those two could have been arguing for the benefit of detracting from meaningful conversation. Since we're looking close to soft deadline... vote: twistedarcher
People questioned why Chairs came to the conclusion that one of the two are likely scum, but I don't think anyone asked:
Why did you pick TA as your vote rather than SB, Chairs? Was there a reason?
TA was on the attack, and seemed remarkably aggressive for somebody who wasn't already sold on lynching. We've since had a discussion that this is typical of TA, but at the time I felt it was awfully scummy to try to push that case so hard, especially since spiritbears appears to be easily put "on tilt" in a way that scum could potentially abuse more heavily than town.
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-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
See bolded sentence for possible scumslip, or yet another instance of town claiming information on accident. How could you know scum can gain the ability to steal something from items? Scum might know this from their own info. Or you yourself know of such an item, as town. But really, this is bad. Like, lynching bad.
I think you must be misunderstanding me. My reasoning went like this:
1. If scum has a stealing power and TA is scum, he would not remind town of the possibility.
2. If scum doesn't have stealing power, TA could still be scum and bring up stealing to create confusion and seem towny.
3. BUT in this game, even if scum doesn't have stealing power now, they could get it in the future and therefore #1 still applies, and this is evidence of TA's towniness.
The possibility of a scumslip lies in the possibility of you saying "The power's out there, and scum COULD get it", rather than it coming across as "There COULD be a power out there that lets scum do this". Ash is interpreting as the first I presume. I don't agree that this is necessarily the case.
Now here's an interesting situation. I agree with TA on this, and this leans towards ash being slightly scum. If Ash is not a native-born English speaker, I would lean more towards null-read from this as it could be language barrier in a very very specific sort of context.
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Ahoppy is v/la, btw, and I think chairs said he would be gone, too? He didn't put it in the v/la thread.
I guess I'm not familiar with the v/la thread, I must have missed it. I'm back now, but I'll keep that in mind for any future absences.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
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Additional notes:
X's idea is interesting, but a proper lynch could potentially set us in a decent position. The primary argument for no-lynch that I can think of (if we want to see X's concept through) is that we might mislynch the person with pen (since we have paper, it does seem reasonable that we have some sort of writing implement). That being said, I'm not sold on no-lynch. There's a few people who have bounced back and forth between "maybe scum?" and "hell I don't know" a few times in the 10 pages I just read, but I'll try to provide some sort of scum-to-chum list (with reasoning) soon.
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Summary:
I'm back, there's lots of fun new things going on from a very prolific posting weekend. I like X's idea but dislike that we have to no-lynch twice to maximize his chances of it working, and despite his relatively pro-town look there's still certainly opportunity for him to be scum (just as there is for all of us who are still alive) and a pair of no-lynch nights, if the gambit does not work, could go very pro-scum. I'd like to make a scum-to-chum list but I'm still recovering from my 4-day-drinkathon so I will produce one Soon(tm).
unvote
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Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
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Now here's an interesting situation. I agree with TA on this, and this leans towards ash being slightly scum. If Ash is not a native-born English speaker, I would lean more towards null-read from this as it could be language barrier in a very very specific sort of context.
I'm the opposite actually. Native speaker, degree in English - Creative Writing. It might be that I take word choice/language into consideration too much when analyzing the game. It's why I hinge on things like "since instead of if" in sentences like that.
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Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
I think it tells us raerae did not give an item to anyone, as Arch previously confirmed role powers interact normally with item powers.
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Ash, what do you think of Xeiron? You came back and reviewed other people's opinion of the claim, but never gave your own.
I think he's town and made a huge mistake. Prefer to let the wifom take its course now on whether he survives the night or not.
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EFHW, what's your interpretation on the Eevee-Nkirbit interaction? Scum buddies? One scum buddying a town? Friendly townies?
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Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
I think it tells us raerae did not give an item to anyone, as Arch previously confirmed role powers interact normally with item powers.
Well yes. This does go against the information we know on SB being able to give out items, and Chairs claiming to be able to give out items.
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Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
I think it tells us raerae did not give an item to anyone, as Arch previously confirmed role powers interact normally with item powers.
Well yes. This does go against the information we know on SB being able to give out items, and Chairs claiming to be able to give out items.
Not sure it goes against anything. I think it just means raerae didn't hand anything out, not that she couldn't.
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TA, how do you view my EFHW case?
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Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
I'm glad to be back. You make an interesting argument here, though I'll argue that not handing out an item is a slight town action as scum could freely share what items they have/need without giving information to town (arguably, this is presuming that scum have a QT they can discuss in - I don't recall if we had any clarification on game setup to know if this is the case). Town certainly do not, as a rule, do that without risk - though it may be better to give/receive than simply to hoard it all to ourselves, since we will presumably need the additional powers from the items to really amp up our chance to win.
Now here's an interesting situation. I agree with TA on this, and this leans towards ash being slightly scum. If Ash is not a native-born English speaker, I would lean more towards null-read from this as it could be language barrier in a very very specific sort of context.
I'm the opposite actually. Native speaker, degree in English - Creative Writing. It might be that I take word choice/language into consideration too much when analyzing the game. It's why I hinge on things like "since instead of if" in sentences like that.
Perhaps. To me (as someone who is a native speak and well-read, but not a writing major) it seemed obvious that the original statement was just speculation. I felt you were overreaching for a scumslip, but I know a lot of creative writing majors and I could totally see that kind of "YOU SAID THIS EXACT THING" ocd-esque behavior from them. Null-read for you it is, then.
Glad to have you back Chairs, and I look forward to having you catch up and post your reads. One thing I wanted to note:
I agree that SB's /out (followed by the confirmed town post-modkill) was unfortunate, but at least we garnered some information out of it. The watcher/tracker mixup mention initially made me want to ask for followup from you on what you meant here (potential cop PR or scum or something?) but after rethinking your intent you were just explaining SB (if a watcher, as initially suggested) would have only seen that nobody did anything to Raerae, not whether Raerae did anything (though we now know that SB was a tracker and the "Raerae did nothing" description is accurate, suggesting town).
Even though Raerae did nothing, this doesn't really suggest that she's town in any way. It's RMM, so scum and town both have night actions. I get a null read from it, and I'm not going to give her any town credit for it. (though I DO still think she's town).
I think it tells us raerae did not give an item to anyone, as Arch previously confirmed role powers interact normally with item powers.
Raerae handing out nothing is arguably town-friendly, as scum could presumably hand items out to other scum on N0 without risk to encourage benefit from sharing. Town handouts are presumably always risk/reward, though arguably still better than nothing.
tl;dr though I understand TA's logic in first quote, I disagree that it is a full null-read on Raerae and lean town!Raerae because no item being handed out seems more likely to be town than scum. I would argue null-reads on both ashersky and ta currently based on their last few posts.
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I agree that not sharing items is more likely town than not, as I think scum shares to gain towncred.
On word choice -- I do assume (probably incorrectly) that people choose their words with a specific purpose in mind. It's possible people just type stuff without caring about the nuances of specific words and phrases.
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I'm still going to continue pushing for that lynch.
1) His claim came at the scummiest time. If he's town, he has an incentive to claim at a time when he's believable, because he wants to make sure his plan will go through and he will be able to catch scum. What's key here is that he didn't not ask for pen and paper until after he was under pressure. Either he wants those two to be able to write a note should he be caught, which is contrary to his claim that he cannot be caught, or he needs the pen and paper to build what he's going to use, at which point, you have to ask why didn't he claim it earlier? I'm not at all sold on this claim, and in fact want to lynch him more because of it.
2) I don't at all buy the notion of "He acted this way in Shakespeare, so he can't be town here." He knows that as town in Shakespeare he created a crazy theory with his PR, and got mislynched. So when he comes under pressure here, he's going to try and act as similarly here as he did in Shakespeare, which is how we got this claim. I don't find him scummy for this connection, but I sure don't find him towny like others seems to.
3) I simply think it's unlikely that he has access to all the roles he has in this game. He has information that a pen is in the game, yet has no pen, as he needs another (or needs 2 pens, I suppose, but this wasn't the impression I got from how he phrased what he was saying). He believe he can stop a night kill on him tonight and presumably the night after. He believes that he can successfully identity scum. Isn't this just a little to good to be true?
4) I still find him scummy for his case on Theorel and jumping on raerae very early in the game.
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TA, how do you view my EFHW case?
I find her jumping on board to the no-lynch idea interesting. I put it out there mostly in terms of fairness/balance issue, and not because I thought it was the best option (although I felt we should consider it, probably). So her jumping aboard that is sketchy.
I don't think her letting Xeiron run with his idea is that scummy, though. If she's scum, and if Xeiron's town, she knows that Xeiron's plan has merit, and he might very well be correct that he's able to protect from a nightkill. So the idea that she's content to let him live, with the plan of killing him tonight, doesn't really hold water since X is claiming to be able to avoid a kill tonight.
I also don't think she scum slipped earlier.
The one thing I find sketchy is her running with the no-lynch idea. I'll go back and check, but I'm pretty sure she was staunchly against no-lynch before?
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I agree that not sharing items is more likely town than not, as I think scum shares to gain towncred.
On word choice -- I do assume (probably incorrectly) that people choose their words with a specific purpose in mind. It's possible people just type stuff without caring about the nuances of specific words and phrases.
You would be incorrect, at least in how I write. I go for meaning, not word choice. Don't give a darn about the nuances...
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I agree that not sharing items is more likely town than not, as I think scum shares to gain towncred.
On word choice -- I do assume (probably incorrectly) that people choose their words with a specific purpose in mind. It's possible people just type stuff without caring about the nuances of specific words and phrases.
You would be incorrect, at least in how I write. I go for meaning, not word choice. Don't give a darn about the nuances...
But words are how we convey meaning! I will admit that I'm less careful about it than I should be, but don't find Ash wrong for looking at such things.
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The way I see the Xeiron lynch at this point is basically a D1 claimed PR lynch.
We have a terrible track record of lynching claimed PRs Day 1. It's a bad call, I think.
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The way I see the Xeiron lynch at this point is basically a D1 claimed PR lynch.
We have a terrible track record of lynching claimed PRs Day 1. It's a bad call, I think.
But we're all PRs. Is lynching Xeiron worse than allowing him to semi-claim his plan like he has, and run up a wagon on another player and force THEM to claim?
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The main thing giving me pause about Xeiron is Nkirbit's point that how in the world does he have access to that many things. He must be exaggerating SOMEWHERE.
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Chairs, you're the dispenser of the paper. Do you believe Xeiron?
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TA, how do you view my EFHW case?
The one thing I find sketchy is her running with the no-lynch idea. I'll go back and check, but I'm pretty sure she was staunchly against no-lynch before?
I said no lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus. I feel like that's where we are right now. I somehow didn't realize xeiron's plan depended on no lynch for TWO days, though. Like chairs, I thought he wanted no lynch b/c he wanted pen and paper for sure. If he wants more items, maybe he should ask for them now. For some reason I read it as he is asking not to be lynched himself Day 2, missed the no lynch thing.
xeiron are you going to be able to tell us more Day 2 to justify no lynching again? That's more than I think any of us can commit to at this point.
TA is right that Ash's theory about me doesn't make sense. If I were scum, I wouldn't be counting on being able to kill X tonight. Also, if I were scum I'd hate the no lynch idea, unless the noose was around my own neck, which it isn't at this point. It isn't around anyone's neck right now, so I wouldn't even be trying to save a partner.
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I agree that not sharing items is more likely town than not, as I think scum shares to gain towncred.
On word choice -- I do assume (probably incorrectly) that people choose their words with a specific purpose in mind. It's possible people just type stuff without caring about the nuances of specific words and phrases.
You would be incorrect, at least in how I write. I go for meaning, not word choice. Don't give a darn about the nuances...
But words are how we convey meaning! I will admit that I'm less careful about it than I should be, but don't find Ash wrong for looking at such things.
I very much value looking at words - I caught Morgrim once through his words, but didn't have the conviction to argue it through (I ended up needing him alive so I could claim to be him, anyway, but that's another story). It's just in this case there's nothing there.
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I'm struggling to see how Xeiron's plan would require no lynch for two days, and have it be helpful.
If he's trying to identify scum, he would want a smaller pool of people, not a larger pool of people, right?
I just can't imagine how having MORE people alive helps Xeiron to identify scum.
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I'm struggling to see how Xeiron's plan would require no lynch for two days, and have it be helpful.
If he's trying to identify scum, he would want a smaller pool of people, not a larger pool of people, right?
I just can't imagine how having MORE people alive helps Xeiron to identify scum.
I think his reasoning was that more items were being passed around, which would help town, theoretically. But he hasn't asked for any specific items past the pen and paper, so I don't see why it matters that much to his plan.
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EFHW, what's your interpretation on the Eevee-Nkirbit interaction? Scum buddies? One scum buddying a town? Friendly townies?
I don't know. Could be scum buddies, but it reminds me more of Shakespeare and lovers. Maybe nkirbit knows Eevee is important in some way that Eevee himself is not aware of?
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Wow, lots to work with here. I've been around today, but not posting because I was working up an analysis of the Eevee/nkirbit relationship which I will summarize in a little bit. But first ...
I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
I believe X is being genuine here. It sounds like he is planning to get two nights worth of info and to record his findings the second night in case he is nk'd that night. I say let him do it. The case on him is pretty weak as it is - just him acting classically "scummy", but nothing compelling. I agree with TA that with the loss of sb, no lynch may be preferable. We would probably end up losing 2 townies today. We've gotten a lot of information even if we don't have wagons. I think this Day will be useful even if we no lynch. I do wonder why a no lynch is necessary for x's plan, but I think let's see how it plays out.
See your bolded statement, and compare to:
TA, how do you view my EFHW case?
The one thing I find sketchy is her running with the no-lynch idea. I'll go back and check, but I'm pretty sure she was staunchly against no-lynch before?
I said no lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus. I feel like that's where we are right now. I somehow didn't realize xeiron's plan depended on no lynch for TWO days, though. Like chairs, I thought he wanted no lynch b/c he wanted pen and paper for sure. If he wants more items, maybe he should ask for them now. For some reason I read it as he is asking not to be lynched himself Day 2, missed the no lynch thing.
xeiron are you going to be able to tell us more Day 2 to justify no lynching again? That's more than I think any of us can commit to at this point.
TA is right that Ash's theory about me doesn't make sense. If I were scum, I wouldn't be counting on being able to kill X tonight. Also, if I were scum I'd hate the no lynch idea, unless the noose was around my own neck, which it isn't at this point. It isn't around anyone's neck right now, so I wouldn't even be trying to save a partner.
Tell me how those two things are the same?
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If what Xeiron is claiming is true, he has a way, way more powerful role than my role. And SB's role. Remarkably more powerful.
I don't think so. He maybe has a 1 shot deathproof and some investigative power and a messaging power. Not bad, but not unheard of.
I said no lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus. I feel like that's where we are right now. I somehow didn't realize xeiron's plan depended on no lynch for TWO days, though. Like chairs, I thought he wanted no lynch b/c he wanted pen and paper for sure. If he wants more items, maybe he should ask for them now. For some reason I read it as he is asking not to be lynched himself Day 2, missed the no lynch thing.
xeiron are you going to be able to tell us more Day 2 to justify no lynching again? That's more than I think any of us can commit to at this point.
The two quotes above are, to me, clear role-fishing when the claiming was already bad. More scummy behavior.
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The "preferable" now is because we have already lost one towny and chances are we would lose another one. I think I said that in my post.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
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Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
This is what we have from Xeiron when he initially puts forth the no lynch plan.
But Xeiron hasn't asked for any items other than the pen and paper, and as far as we know, already has his plan in motion (should he get his pen and paper, or possibly not). So why the no lynch?? Does Xeiron not think we can catch scum today?
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The "preferable" now is because we have already lost one towny and chances are we would lose another one. I think I said that in my post.
Um, okay. But "I think no-lynch may be preferable now" does NOT equal "no-lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus" no matter how you slice them.
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Vote Count 1.11
xeiron (4) shraeye, nkirbit, raerae, theorel
EFHW (1) ashersky
AHoppy (1) Eevee
No Lynch (2) xeiron, EFHW
Not Voting: (5) AHoppy, Twistedarcher, mail-mi, chairs
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
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Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
This is what we have from Xeiron when he initially puts forth the no lynch plan.
But Xeiron hasn't asked for any items other than the pen and paper, and as far as we know, already has his plan in motion (should he get his pen and paper, or possibly not). So why the no lynch?? Does Xeiron not think we can catch scum today?
No lynch helps scum. Why? Because every day we no lynch is a day we didn't kill scum. It reduces the number of mislynches scum needs to get to win the game.
There's no guarantee that no lynch gets us "more PRs" in the game. Item PRs depend on getting the right pieces and combination guesses, right? So no guarantees there. And then there are the PRs we may or may not have been assigned at game start.
If you are balancing the fact that there are inventions that act as PRs, how do you balance that with actual roles? Probably by making weaker roles.
Add in the fact that scum can be gaining stuff and inventing stuff and I think the no lynch plan just gets worse and worse.
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Even if we believe Xeiron is telling the truth, he does have a history of exaggerating his knowledge as town. In Shakespeare, he claimed to have info that 3 players were non lovers (Sudgy, Eevee, and TA) and everyone else was lovers (EFHW, myself, mail-mi, raerae). He was 1/7... literally the only one he guessed correctly was TA as non-lover. So even if you believe he isn't scum, all in on his plan doesn't seem like the wisest move to me.
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Is there a chance we could get the vote counts renumbered to 1.8, 1.9, 1.10, 1.11, rather than 1.8, 1.9, 1.91, 1.92 for future reference? It's really confusing right now.
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I'm not convinced that claiming is bad. In fact, I think we could maybe get some great plans going, but it would involve risk. I'm sure you will find a way to make this sound scummy, but I'm tempted to say let's go all in and really play this out.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Yeah, this was EFHW taking a TA quote and making it sound bad when it wasn't.
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Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
This is what we have from Xeiron when he initially puts forth the no lynch plan.
But Xeiron hasn't asked for any items other than the pen and paper, and as far as we know, already has his plan in motion (should he get his pen and paper, or possibly not). So why the no lynch?? Does Xeiron not think we can catch scum today?
No lynch helps scum. Why? Because every day we no lynch is a day we didn't kill scum. It reduces the number of mislynches scum needs to get to win the game.
There's no guarantee that no lynch gets us "more PRs" in the game. Item PRs depend on getting the right pieces and combination guesses, right? So no guarantees there. And then there are the PRs we may or may not have been assigned at game start.
If you are balancing the fact that there are inventions that act as PRs, how do you balance that with actual roles? Probably by making weaker roles.
Add in the fact that scum can be gaining stuff and inventing stuff and I think the no lynch plan just gets worse and worse.
Yes, I agree that no-lynch is bad. I think it's anti-town at best, scummy at worst, and above all, not fun. I'm pointing it out as another odd thing about Xeiron.. I think his no-lynch argument is bogus.
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I'm not convinced that claiming is bad. In fact, I think we could maybe get some great plans going, but it would involve risk. I'm sure you will find a way to make this sound scummy, but I'm tempted to say let's go all in and really play this out.
Really? Full mass claim on D1?
I mean, I LOVE claiming plans. I push one in almost every game I play. And yet I haven't in this game. Why? Because it is bad news bears.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Yeah, this was EFHW taking a TA quote and making it sound bad when it wasn't.
Huh? That was raerae.. what does EFHW have to do with it?
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Well, so he was a tracker, not a watcher. Interesting that Raerae didn't target someone N0.
How do you know my role? Why do you assume I can target somebody? SB didn't see me do anything, yet you and Eevee insist on using the phrasing "target someone."
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The "preferable" now is because we have already lost one towny and chances are we would lose another one. I think I said that in my post.
Um, okay. But "I think no-lynch may be preferable now" does NOT equal "no-lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus" no matter how you slice them.
They're not equal. Who said they were? TA wondered about my past stance. I told him. It's not my current stance because the current circumstances were not foreseeable.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Yeah, this was EFHW taking a TA quote and making it sound bad when it wasn't.
Huh? That was raerae.. what does EFHW have to do with it?
Nothing. Error.
raerae gets the scum points for that one.
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Is there a chance we could get the vote counts renumbered to 1.8, 1.9, 1.10, 1.11, rather than 1.8, 1.9, 1.91, 1.92 for future reference? It's really confusing right now.
haha, sure thing.
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Agree that no lynch is bad. And what are you advocating claiming, EFHW? I think the claiming we've done today hasn't done anything in terms of helping us find scum.
Nkirbit is making a lot of sense right now.
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I said no lynch was a bad plan but might be an option if we get to deadline with no consensus. I feel like that's where we are right now. I somehow didn't realize xeiron's plan depended on no lynch for TWO days, though. Like chairs, I thought he wanted no lynch b/c he wanted pen and paper for sure. If he wants more items, maybe he should ask for them now. For some reason I read it as he is asking not to be lynched himself Day 2, missed the no lynch thing.
xeiron are you going to be able to tell us more Day 2 to justify no lynching again? That's more than I think any of us can commit to at this point.
I read your response to TA as describing your current view on the no lynch plan. If your response was describing your earlier, now changed, thoughts on no lynch, then that's different. It wasn't clear to me, and I read it as describing how you currently felt about no lynch.
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Well, so he was a tracker, not a watcher. Interesting that Raerae didn't target someone N0.
How do you know my role? Why do you assume I can target somebody? SB didn't see me do anything, yet you and Eevee insist on using the phrasing "target someone."
The point of a tracker is to watch a player and see who they targeted. According to spiritbears, now a confirmed town, you targeted no one N0. I have no idea whether you CAN target a player or not -- all I know is that you DIDN'T N0.
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Well, so he was a tracker, not a watcher. Interesting that Raerae didn't target someone N0.
How do you know my role? Why do you assume I can target somebody? SB didn't see me do anything, yet you and Eevee insist on using the phrasing "target someone."
SB claimed he was a watcher, and claimed that from that information, he gathered that Raerae didn't target someone N0. But that's not what a watcher tells you.. a watcher tells you who a person was targeted by. So TA speculated that SB might have meant tracker, and was correct, as it turned out.
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Agree that no lynch is bad. And what are you advocating claiming, EFHW? I think the claiming we've done today hasn't done anything in terms of helping us find scum.
Nkirbit is making a lot of sense right now.
Claiming helps scum decide who needs to die. EFHW is asking for help in who to target at night.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Yeah, this was EFHW taking a TA quote and making it sound bad when it wasn't.
Huh? That was raerae.. what does EFHW have to do with it?
Nothing. Error.
raerae gets the scum points for that one.
You get a couple for this mixup, too. This reeks of starting at the conclusion and then looking for the evidence.
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Raerae you are trying to dig up dirts on my posts when there's clearly nothing there
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
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Well, so he was a tracker, not a watcher. Interesting that Raerae didn't target someone N0.
How do you know my role? Why do you assume I can target somebody? SB didn't see me do anything, yet you and Eevee insist on using the phrasing "target someone."
The point of a tracker is to watch a player and see who they targeted. According to spiritbears, now a confirmed town, you targeted no one N0. I have no idea whether you CAN target a player or not -- all I know is that you DIDN'T N0.
This is correct, raerae. You were outed as not targeting anyone N0 by now mod-confirmed/dead spiritbears. SB's claim + mod-confirmed role + mod-confirmed role/item interaction rules means you targeted no one. Doesn't mean we know your role.
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I don't think we're going to be able to get a lynch (or no lynch) by soft deadline tonight in ~ 14 minutes.
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Yeah, this was EFHW taking a TA quote and making it sound bad when it wasn't.
Huh? That was raerae.. what does EFHW have to do with it?
Nothing. Error.
raerae gets the scum points for that one.
You get a couple for this mixup, too. This reeks of starting at the conclusion and then looking for the evidence.
That's fine. I am convinced EFHW is scum, and everything that I read her post (or think are her posts) will read as scum manipulation.
Turns out it was raerae manipulating TA's post that time. The premise was correct, if not the target.
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
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I don't think we're going to be able to get a lynch (or no lynch) by soft deadline tonight in ~ 14 minutes.
As mentioned previously, I'll be VLA after today until Sunday. I don't see me moving my vote, though.
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
I think it is OMGUS on EFHW's part.
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
2nd part. Can you list what you think Ash has put together?
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Want to lynch: xeiron
Would lynch: ahoppy ashersky mail-mi
Would lynch if no lynch was only other option: everyone else
But I really prefer the xerion lynch
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Unvote
I believe the claim, SB has no reason to lie if he's /outing. I think it's silly that we have a basically verified town member due to it, but oh well that's the game.
SB also got watcher/tracker confused, I think. No one targeted Raerae last night -- Raerae still very well may have performed actions.
Just catching up and this is the first post to catch my eye. How can you believe the claim and say it's false in the same breath?
Cause I was right! He said he was tracker, then described his role as being a watcher, (at which point I made the above post) but then actually flipped as a tracker, he was just stating his role incorrectly.
Whether you were right or not in the end, that is still a clear contradiction. If I were to dumb down that post to one sentence, this is how it would read, "I believe him but he wasn't telling the truth."
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No raerae, it would read, "I believe him but what he's saying has a contradiction, so I think he's mistaken". And I don't think that's unreasonable, especially given that he was in fact mistaken
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No raerae, it would read, "I believe him but what he's saying has a contradiction, so I think he's mistaken". And I don't think that's unreasonable, especially given that he was in fact mistaken
That wasn't how I read it. Still isn't how it looks to me but I'm obviously in the minority there.
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Agree that no lynch is bad. And what are you advocating claiming, EFHW? I think the claiming we've done today hasn't done anything in terms of helping us find scum.
Advocating is too strong a word, but I want to play with the idea and would like us all to as a town. Suspend your disbelief for a few moments and imagine this scenario.
The claiming so far is not helpful to town because it's in dribs and drabs, at the same time that it gives scum hints on what to do or not do. I'm saying what if we turn our usual procedures upside down, stop running scared and take advantage of our majority to get something potentially really helpful. Now, when there are the most town players, we could put it all out there, make several plans and scum can't stop them all. AND they risk exposure because they will have to try to participate. I've never done a massclaim before, so I'm not sensitized to the risks like others might be, but I do know that by distrusting everyone we lose out on what we could gain by cooperating.
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Xeiron, if you didn't want to repeat RMM7, why on this lovely blue marble did you claim, again, D1?
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TA, I clearly and loudly posted v/la in this thread. Read more carefully. I don't live here; I just come here to play.
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No raerae, it would read, "I believe him but what he's saying has a contradiction, so I think he's mistaken". And I don't think that's unreasonable, especially given that he was in fact mistaken
Correct
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TA, I clearly and loudly posted v/la in this thread. Read more carefully. I don't live here; I just come here to play.
It was a joke :)
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
2nd part. Can you list what you think Ash has put together?
The no lynch inconsistency is what I think is the worst. Your "slip" was minor, if anything, and I kind of agree with ash on what else he's said about you. I think you're the best lynch besides xeiron (I want to see if his plan works)
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
2nd part. Can you list what you think Ash has put together?
The no lynch inconsistency is what I think is the worst. Your "slip" was minor, if anything, and I kind of agree with ash on what else he's said about you. I think you're the best lynch besides xeiron (I want to see if his plan works)
Even ash agrees that he misread me about the no lynch. What else has he said about me that you agree with?
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Want to lynch: xeiron
Would lynch: ahoppy ashersky mail-mi
Would lynch if no lynch was only other option: everyone else
But I really prefer the xerion lynch
nkirbit tell me your take on Ashersky. He's tunneling me, of course, which is uber-scummy, but is there anything else?
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I won't participate in lynching xeiron. This is RMM7 all over again people.
I am aware his story is crazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some holes in it. Townies make mistakes. I don't think he would device a plan like this as scum. I don't.
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
I think it is OMGUS on EFHW's part.
Has your position on mail-mi changed? You were voting for him twice today. You think he is towny now?
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I won't participate in lynching xeiron. This is RMM7 all over again people.
I am aware his story is crazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some holes in it. Townies make mistakes. I don't think he would device a plan like this as scum. I don't.
Exactly. The game he didn't want to repeat. Yet he's making the same "mistakes" banking on that being fresh in our minds.
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No raerae, it would read, "I believe him but what he's saying has a contradiction, so I think he's mistaken". And I don't think that's unreasonable, especially given that he was in fact mistaken
That wasn't how I read it. Still isn't how it looks to me but I'm obviously in the minority there.
Why would he say "I believe you but you're not telling the truth?"
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re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
This is scummy even for mail-mi.
? Explanation? First part or second part? What about it is scummy?
I think it is OMGUS on EFHW's part.
Has your position on mail-mi changed? You were voting for him twice today. You think he is towny now?
No, he's still scummy.
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I won't participate in lynching xeiron. This is RMM7 all over again people.
I am aware his story is crazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some holes in it. Townies make mistakes. I don't think he would device a plan like this as scum. I don't.
Exactly. The game he didn't want to repeat. Yet he's making the same "mistakes" banking on that being fresh in our minds.
Eh, I don't think he planned it that way.
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Ash, what's your take on TA? Just point me in that direction if you've already covered it.
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Ashersky, so far your evidence against me is a "slip" no one else sees as a slip, a misunderstanding re: no lynch you yourself have acknowledged, misattributing to me something raerae said, and my willingness to give xeiron a chance to try his plan tonight (I don't agree with Day 2 no lynch). Am I missing something?
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I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..
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Want to lynch: xeiron
Would lynch: ahoppy ashersky mail-mi
Would lynch if no lynch was only other option: everyone else
But I really prefer the xerion lynch
nkirbit tell me your take on Ashersky. He's tunneling me, of course, which is uber-scummy, but is there anything else?
Most of all, I'm concerned with his actions towards xeiron. It's not that he disagrees, it that on multiple occasions, I've seen him decline to question a xeiron lynch at all. I'm also concerne with the multiple recent posts saying "see, efhw is scummy here!" Including one post that was actually by raerae. It screams at me that he's starting with a conclusion
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Ash, what's your take on TA? Just point me in that direction if you've already covered it.
I think he's towny so far D1. Calm when needed, emotion seemed genuine when it came out. Good stances on theory/claiming/etc. Asking lots of questions, gave some reads. Would not lynch today.
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Ashersky, so far your evidence against me is a "slip" no one else sees as a slip, a misunderstanding re: no lynch you yourself have acknowledged, misattributing to me something raerae said, and my willingness to give xeiron a chance to try his plan tonight (I don't agree with Day 2 no lynch). Am I missing something?
I think the slip was a slip, even if others don't. I think you've misrepresented things multiple times. I think you've shown you have more set up info than the rest of us. I think your reaction to Xeiron's claim/plan was scummy.
I do think your stance on no lynch is bad and your willingness to go along with X is bad.
I acknowledged that it was possible your no lynch comment, which I saw as contradictory, could have referenced something else. That could have been your excuse to cover for it, too. It isn't conclusive evidence, though.
The raerae scummy statement attributed to you I will own up to. I think it was a scummy misrepresentation of TA's statement; raerae stands behind it. That's fine. I found it scummy.
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I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..
Assuming this was a typo and you met "could" but how about you explain that either way.
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Want to lynch: xeiron
Would lynch: ahoppy ashersky mail-mi
Would lynch if no lynch was only other option: everyone else
But I really prefer the xerion lynch
nkirbit tell me your take on Ashersky. He's tunneling me, of course, which is uber-scummy, but is there anything else?
Most of all, I'm concerned with his actions towards xeiron. It's not that he disagrees, it that on multiple occasions, I've seen him decline to question a xeiron lynch at all. I'm also concerne with the multiple recent posts saying "see, efhw is scummy here!" Including one post that was actually by raerae. It screams at me that he's starting with a conclusion
What actions toward X?
I don't decline to question anything. I think lynching X is bad. I've said it previously. Go re-read me on the last few pages. I said something like "let's leave him alive and let the WIFOM happen." I've said (to TA) that I think he's town that made a mistake. And I'm not voting for him. Those should all point to how I feel about the X situation.
Why are you so intent on protecting EFHW? That was what got sb under a lot of scrutiny.
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I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..
Assuming this was a typo and you met "could" but how about you explain that either way.
Double negatives, how do they work.
Well, I have bit of a reputation to be against day 1 lynches. I like to think I've been correct with a good record too. In this game, I take that stance against the xeiron lynch - I will actively try to make it not happen.
I don't feel that way about EHFW. Ashersky is pushing it with too much certainty and it worries me, but EHFW answers are not convincing to me. I always try to think "could he be like that under pressure as scum", and I think EHFW could be.
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I think you've misrepresented things multiple times. I think you've shown you have more set up info than the rest of us.
Show me where. You should do the work if you're going to push things this far.
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I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..
Assuming this was a typo and you met "could" but how about you explain that either way.
Double negatives, how do they work.
Well, I have bit of a reputation to be against day 1 lynches. I like to think I've been correct with a good record too. In this game, I take that stance against the xeiron lynch - I will actively try to make it not happen.
I don't feel that way about EHFW. Ashersky is pushing it with too much certainty and it worries me, but EHFW answers are not convincing to me. I always try to think "could he be like that under pressure as scum", and I think EHFW could be.
Compare how I'm pushing the EFHW case compared to how I pushed cases as scum. If I am scum forcing an EFHW mislynch, I'm being pretty stupid about it. What do I gain as scum from it? Why EFHW over anyone else?
Am I sure she's scum? As close to sure as you get on D1. Best case I've seen all day.
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I think you've misrepresented things multiple times. I think you've shown you have more set up info than the rest of us.
Show me where. You should do the work if you're going to push things this far.
Fine. I'll go requote myself.
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Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
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Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
which reason?
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In fact, in the interest of not dragging this day out longer than necessary and generally lynching over not lynching, I will Vote: EHFW. Fwiw I'm surprised no one seems to be noticing ahoppy at all.
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Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
which reason?
It's not exactly the scum play I'd expect the most - picking a super aggressive townie who is better than average at defending herself and just relentlessly tunneling her when the alternative is a long, dragged out day 1 that isn't leading us any closer to a lynch.
It's like, ash said he thinks this day is getting too long, and now he is acting on it. The overcertainty makes sense for town ash.
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In fact, in the interest of not dragging this day out longer than necessary and generally lynching over not lynching, I will Vote: EHFW. Fwiw I'm surprised no one seems to be noticing ahoppy at all.
Why didn't you vote in your double-negative post if that wasn't a typo?
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You said "especially since scum could get a stealing power..." That's exactly what you said. Scum "could" get a "stealing power" is a conditional, and the condition to me seems like they could get one [later] even if they don't have one [now].
How do you know they could get one? That's my question.
"Even if ... they could" means "I don't know if they have one now or not, but if they don't, they still might be able to get one later, we can't know for sure and neither can they," not "even if they can't now, they could get the power later, because I know there's there's a combo for that". Do you see what I mean?
Sure, I see what you could have meant, had you used the word "if." But, you see, you didn't.
-- He brings up the possibility that scum can steal items. This could be read either way, but in general I don't think scum would want to alert town to possible dangers, especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
That's my point. You didn't say "especially IF scum could get a stealing power..." You said "especially SINCE scum could get a stealing power." SINCE to me says you know it. SINCE = BECAUSE here.
Read this: "especially because scum could get a stealing power..." Pretty bad, right?
So then you cut your quote from the response and say you said "if" even though you didn't. Lynch all liars.
vote: EFHW
See here, where I point out how you cut out damning portions of your own quote to represent yourself in a better light.
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unvote
I won't participate in lynching xeiron. This is RMM7 all over again people.
I am aware his story is crazy, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some holes in it. Townies make mistakes. I don't think he would device a plan like this as scum. I don't.
I get the same feeling, Eevee. What I've really noticed is nkirbit's efforts to get xeiron lynched seem to have increased a lot since the claim.
Here are two of the posts that popped out when I was reading, but I recall there being others as well while I was catching up the last 8 pages or so.
I'm not sold on the no-lynch plan, but I think that we definitely need a not-xeiron-lynch. Ashersky said basically what I was thinking in the back of my mind while I was reading people's takes on xeiron's plans and it's possible effectiveness.
The way I see the Xeiron lynch at this point is basically a D1 claimed PR lynch.
We have a terrible track record of lynching claimed PRs Day 1. It's a bad call, I think.
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Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
I don't actually think Ashersky is scum. I think he is over confident. But your saying you agree when a minute ago you didn't, is very similar what you did with TA and with mail-mi. I think you may well be scum. VOTE: Eevee
PPE: I typed this before seeing that Eevee voted for me.
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In fact, in the interest of not dragging this day out longer than necessary and generally lynching over not lynching, I will Vote: EHFW. Fwiw I'm surprised no one seems to be noticing ahoppy at all.
Why didn't you vote in your double-negative post if that wasn't a typo?
I don't know, didn't think of it? No particular reason, nothing happened inbetween except for a little more thinking.
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The other EFHW misrepresentation that sticks out to me is the "confusion" on EFHW's no lynch stance. She explains it away as talking about two different points in time, but I'm not sold on it.
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@Eevee, I'd still be down for an AHoppy lynch; I still think a backgroundplayer is the best place to lynch today. EFHW's reaction to xeiron's plan is exactly what townies need to be thinking now. Instead of going "oh hey, a plan that somebody claims will work...but I don't understand it...gotta lynch them!" and then complaining when we blew our chances at some serious advantage, I think we should let this play out and see what xeiron can get for us.
nkirbit's reaction to xeiron's plan is by far the scummiest, increasing the fervor with which he's calling for xeiron's head. EFHW's reaction reads completely townie to me.
Vote: AHoppy
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I wouldn't be surprised if shraeye was scum btw. Somehow he feels too... friendly?
Maybe I'm just not used to him agreeing with me. :D
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I see how I seem overconfident to everyone. I feel overconfident. But hey, at least I'm self-aware.
If I'm wrong on EFHW, that'll suck.
For me, here's the way the day goes:
WILL NOT VOTE FOR: ashersky, shraeye, TA, Xeiron, nkirbit
MIGHT VOTE FOR IF CLEARLY ONLY LYNCH: raerae, chairs, Eevee, theorel, ahoppy
WOULD VOTE FOR: mail-mi
PUSHING TO LYNCH: EFHW
So really, my two true scum reads from D1 are EFHW and mail-mi, in that order.
The iffy ones in my list are theorel, chairs and ahoppy for activity and raerae/Eevee for fear.
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See here, where I point out how you cut out damning portions of your own quote to represent yourself in a better light.
No, I really don't. You cut out where later I said "Ok, I see" because I finally understood what provoked the problem and then I did what I could to explain myself, though it was already a lost battle.
And this is weird, I clicked on the link to the post you cited, and it took me to my post on TA - at the end of which I retracted my scum read. Did you decide to edit that out?
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ash, why are you afraid of raerae but not shraeye?
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Vote Count 1.12
xeiron (3) nkirbit, raerae, theorel
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (1) EFHW
AHoppy (1) shraeye
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (3) AHoppy, Twistedarcher, chairs
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day one ends on Monday, July 15th.
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See here, where I point out how you cut out damning portions of your own quote to represent yourself in a better light.
No, I really don't. You cut out where later I said "Ok, I see" because I finally understood what provoked the problem and then I did what I could to explain myself, though it was already a lost battle.
And this is weird, I clicked on the link to the post you cited, and it took me to my post on TA - at the end of which I retracted my scum read. Did you decide to edit that out?
I just quoted my post, I didn't cut anything. Your quote inside my quote was the one that had cutting in it.
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I wouldn't be surprised if shraeye was scum btw. Somehow he feels too... friendly?
Maybe I'm just not used to him agreeing with me. :D
He doesn't agree with you about me. But if you are scum, you don't really mean the things you said about me and actually do agree with him.
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ash, why are you afraid of raerae but not shraeye?
Bankers, mostly.
I've been scum with shraeye. I'm wary of him, for sure, but I have a few things to look for with him. I'm not giving him (or anyone) a pass for the game, but am for D1.
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I wouldn't be surprised if shraeye was scum btw. Somehow he feels too... friendly?
Maybe I'm just not used to him agreeing with me. :D
He doesn't agree with you about me. But if you are scum, you don't really mean the things you said about me and actually do agree with him.
This is what I mean.
Eevee meant that shraeye agreed with him about Ahoppy. You turned that around on Eevee.
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or I'd vote for nkirbit as well. I really think the current EFHW trend is silly.
Ashersky called her out for a "scumslip" that I don't see whatsoever, ash also claimed that EFHW's calm reaction to xeiron's plan is scummy, but that seems really silly.
So normal reactions should be shock, anger, worry, disbelief, suspicion...except from scum, right? EFHW was way too calm.
I don't get this at all. Wouldn't scum be the players who react with nitpicking worries, and disbelief. I think scum is much more likely to be very worried that xeiron's plan will work, and not be as calm.
Also, I think the confusion about the no-lynch business came from people saying earlier that EFHW was staunchly against no-lynch, and then EFHW clearly thought they were talking about this quote:
re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it. I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.
July 3rd is fine.
No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere. But does that ever happen?
and explained it.
Then people looked at a different quote and miscommunication happened.
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Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
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Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
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or I'd vote for nkirbit as well. I really think the current EFHW trend is silly.
Ashersky called her out for a "scumslip" that I don't see whatsoever, ash also claimed that EFHW's calm reaction to xeiron's plan is scummy, but that seems really silly.
So normal reactions should be shock, anger, worry, disbelief, suspicion...except from scum, right? EFHW was way too calm.
I don't get this at all. Wouldn't scum be the players who react with nitpicking worries, and disbelief. I think scum is much more likely to be very worried that xeiron's plan will work, and not be as calm.
Also, I think the confusion about the no-lynch business came from people saying earlier that EFHW was staunchly against no-lynch, and then EFHW clearly thought they were talking about this quote:
re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it. I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.
July 3rd is fine.
No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere. But does that ever happen?
and explained it.
Then people looked at a different quote and miscommunication happened.
This is correct
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Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.
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or I'd vote for nkirbit as well. I really think the current EFHW trend is silly.
Ashersky called her out for a "scumslip" that I don't see whatsoever, ash also claimed that EFHW's calm reaction to xeiron's plan is scummy, but that seems really silly.
So normal reactions should be shock, anger, worry, disbelief, suspicion...except from scum, right? EFHW was way too calm.
I don't get this at all. Wouldn't scum be the players who react with nitpicking worries, and disbelief. I think scum is much more likely to be very worried that xeiron's plan will work, and not be as calm.
Also, I think the confusion about the no-lynch business came from people saying earlier that EFHW was staunchly against no-lynch, and then EFHW clearly thought they were talking about this quote:
re: theorel's idea, what if we reverse it. I say an item I have that is not obviously a great role (I don't say penicillin or shiny badge!) and if you think your item would be a good match, you share it with me.
July 3rd is fine.
No lynch is a bad plan, but could be an ok outcome if we get to deadline and are nowhere. But does that ever happen?
and explained it.
Then people looked at a different quote and miscommunication happened.
Not sure one vote is a trend.
I'm not at all surprised that shraeye disagrees with me. We have very different ways of scumhunting, and very different belief systems for how to play the game.
I think Eevee's point, that EFHW is now scrambling, is valid. His point that I am now tunneling, is also valid.
If there were another compelling case out there, I might be swayed to consider it. But I've yet to see a strong (in the D1 sense of the word) case made on anyone.
Xeiron? Nope. Any of the other foregrounders? Nada. LALL? Not compelling in the face of actual scum cases. So really, what else is there?
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If you think he is being unfair, why did you vote for me?
I think we have a real scum candidate in Eevee here. I wish I had Ashersky's talent for case pushing, because I think this could be the real deal.
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If there were another compelling case out there, I might be swayed to consider it. But I've yet to see a strong (in the D1 sense of the word) case made on anyone.
Xeiron? Nope. Any of the other foregrounders? Nada. LALL? Not compelling in the face of actual scum cases. So really, what else is there?
This is pretty much how I feel about EFHW too. Well, I'd put Ahoppy and shraeye on top of the "my individual biggest suspects" list.
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Vote: AHoppy
There's too much speculation and crazy around everybody else and we need active contributors. I'd like to get the dead weight out of the way and see where the dust has settled tomorrow.
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Sorry guys for being absent, I've been on vacation. I am way behind and slowly working my way back up... Here's a few thoughts I have through page 38. I'm going to continue reading the last 10 pages to catch up (I was like 25 behind... why such the talkative D1? Kinda a pain to read...) So I'll vote when I catch the rest of the way up, but I want to post what my thoughts are thus far.:
Eevee: He's looking pretty scummy to me. Why?
-He asks Mail-mi why he (mm) has a scum read on eevee
-The instructions on how to read him. To me, it looks like he's trying to WIFOM us, and I really don't like it.
-around post#599, ash and eevee were basically saying they found eachother towny. Ash was saying that if eevee is scum, he's playing scum badly, and eevee says he thinks ash is town. The whole interaction between them doesn't sit well with me. Just feels too convenient that they make up and see eachother as town after ash tunneled eevee (I think that's what happened, I should have written this down right when I thought of it)
nkirbit:
-I don't give towncred to calling out your post like eevee did, like others later, I think it was a good way to direct scum to information in the post. You say that you couls just tell them tonight in the scum QT, but what if the information is useful now? what if you want to direct scum into setting up a mislynch on me? I don't buy it as a towny move.
-Overall, I can't make a decision on nkirbit this game. In mean girls, it was pretty obvious that he was town. Here, not so much. Granted, earlier he stated that he wasn't as interested in this game due to another one, but still, Something feels different about him here.
Xerion:
EFHW:
I'm pretty convinced by the scumslip that ash points out. Previously, it had been mentioned that stealing items could be possible, but nobody said that it was something that actually exists in this game. EFHW seems to think that the combinations scum can make will cause them to steal items, and I don't see anything that would make EFHW think that this is something scum can get. Or something that scum doesn't already have. Just seems like he has information the rest of town doesn't.
Mail-mi:
-He looks scummy, like others have said. Few, short posts. Not very meaty. But I like his re-read of xerion. Doesn't give him towncred or scumcred. I agree with others on it, I don't think I need to reiterate what others have said about it. Also, this looks like town mail-mi, if mean girls was any indication
Spiritbears:
-Still see him as a big scum read. He still hasn't answered me from earlier, except his apology.
PPE: so 118 new posts... but I still want to get these thoughts out there so I have some reads down before the soft deadline (I just hope it's not already decided). Sorry, vacation makes it hard to keep up with mafia.
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If there were another compelling case out there, I might be swayed to consider it. But I've yet to see a strong (in the D1 sense of the word) case made on anyone.
Xeiron? Nope. Any of the other foregrounders? Nada. LALL? Not compelling in the face of actual scum cases. So really, what else is there?
Eevee! Your gambits early on were intended to draw out scum. I guess you aren't pulling a gambit now, but I think it's worked anyway. He's jumped on this wagon with very little of his own content, not even saying what of your case he agrees with.
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Edit:
forgot to put down stuff about Xerion. I don't like the way he looks so far (through page 38). Scum read on him. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion on him, just that he looks scummy. People have already said pretty much everything...
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If you think he is being unfair, why did you vote for me?
I think we have a real scum candidate in Eevee here. I wish I had Ashersky's talent for case pushing, because I think this could be the real deal.
I'd note that crazy unfair tunneling is a valid scum hunting tactic.
It doesn't work on everyone, of course. Like, I wouldn't use it on spiritbears, given I don't think he'd react to it very well.
But generally, it can find chinks in scum!armor. Some people built meticulous, quote-based cases. I don't. I go with gut and feel and words and stuff. Annoying to some (like shraeye), but helpful nonetheless.
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Edit:
forgot to put down stuff about Xerion. I don't like the way he looks so far (through page 38). Scum read on him. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion on him, just that he looks scummy. People have already said pretty much everything...
I'd suggest reading up to now before posting again...X has said some "stuff" and spiritbears is dead.
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I agree that unfair tunneling can be a valid scumhunting tactic, and I even said this when ash was unfair tunneling me. Like, I think EHFW's reactions to it would read towny to me if she was town. At least often enough to make lynching her better than drawing this day out any longer.
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Not sure one vote is a trend.
I'm not at all surprised that shraeye disagrees with me. We have very different ways of scumhunting, and very different belief systems for how to play the game.
I think Eevee's point, that EFHW is now scrambling, is valid. His point that I am now tunneling, is also valid.
If there were another compelling case out there, I might be swayed to consider it. But I've yet to see a strong (in the D1 sense of the word) case made on anyone.
Xeiron? Nope. Any of the other foregrounders? Nada. LALL? Not compelling in the face of actual scum cases. So really, what else is there?
Well, mail-mi and Eevee are also voting EFHW, and other than xeiron, who would be a classic terrible claimedPR lynch, she is the biggest wagon.
And viscerally, it seems like we're entering that sort of frantic-post-frequency where people (scum and townies who are just trying to finish a mega-day) are most likely to just jump onto whatever wagon looks big.
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I always sound defensive when I'm defending myself. But you jumped on a wagon you agree is unfair, and since then you have been spinning everything I say to sound scummy. This is not your way as town.
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Like, I think EHFW's reactions to it would read towny to me if she was town. At least often enough to make lynching her better than drawing this day out any longer.
What what what?? This implies that you don't find EFHW towny, but only because you know she's not town. That is suspicious as all getup.
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Well, mail-mi and Eevee are also voting EFHW, and other than xeiron, who would be a classic terrible claimedPR lynch, she is the biggest wagon.
And viscerally, it seems like we're entering that sort of frantic-post-frequency where people (scum and townies who are just trying to finish a mega-day) are most likely to just jump onto whatever wagon looks big.
Fair enough. We still need 7 to lynch, even having lost sb. My best guess is it comes down to EFHW or Ahoppy. That's scummy-to-some vs. lurker.
Breakdown seems to be:
EFHW: ash, mail-mi, Eevee, Ahoppy
Ahoppy: shraeye, raerae, EFHW
That leaves chairs, nkirbit, TA, Xieron, and theorel to take sides. (Note, I put the two prospects on each other wagons, since I assume they prefer the other to themselves).
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The "you" in my post was Eevee.
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Like, I think EHFW's reactions to it would read towny to me if she was town. At least often enough to make lynching her better than drawing this day out any longer.
What what what?? This implies that you don't find EFHW towny, but only because you know she's not town. That is suspicious as all getup.
I think you have it backward. I think Eevee meant:
"If EFHW was town, her reactions [to ash's unfair tunneling] would read towny to me."
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I am not on Ahoppy's wagon. I am null on him.
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I always sound defensive when I'm defending myself. But you jumped on a wagon you agree is unfair, and since then you have been spinning everything I say to sound scummy. This is not your way as town.
I'm not saying the wagon is unfair!!
I'm saying reading you twisting my words earlier as evidence of you being scum is unfair.
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I am not on Ahoppy's wagon. I am null on him.
I'm assuming though, if it comes down to you two at deadline, you will vote for him over yourself. That was what I was trying to capture.
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Like, I think EHFW's reactions to it would read towny to me if she was town. At least often enough to make lynching her better than drawing this day out any longer.
What what what?? This implies that you don't find EFHW towny, but only because you know she's not town. That is suspicious as all getup.
I don't follow?
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Like, I think EHFW's reactions to it would read towny to me if she was town. At least often enough to make lynching her better than drawing this day out any longer.
What what what?? This implies that you don't find EFHW towny, but only because you know she's not town. That is suspicious as all getup.
I think you have it backward. I think Eevee meant:
"If EFHW was town, her reactions [to ash's unfair tunneling] would read towny to me."
`
Right, this!
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Right, my mistake.
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I would vote ahoppy over efhw if it came to it. But I wouldn't be happy about it
Ash, I will elaborate on my read when I get home
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Would vote: Eevee, mail-mi
Would need more convincing to vote: Ahoppy, raerae, nkirbit, Ashersky
Won't vote: everyone else.
Eevee I wasn't turning your words around, I thought you were ignoring the larger part of his post where he disagreed with you about me. By saying "he agrees with me" you are implying that he agrees with you on everything. You didn't say "he agrees with me about Ahoppy". So I was correcting that possible distortion. Sorry for the extra comment, though, I guess that was unnecessary.
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Would vote: Eevee, mail-mi
Would need more convincing to vote: Ahoppy, raerae, nkirbit, Ashersky
Won't vote: everyone else.
Eevee I wasn't turning your words around, I thought you were ignoring the larger part of his post where he disagreed with you about me. By saying "he agrees with me" you are implying that he agrees with you on everything. You didn't say "he agrees with me about Ahoppy". So I was correcting that possible distortion. Sorry for the extra comment, though, I guess that was unnecessary.
Does shraeye fall in the "won't vote" category?
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Would vote: Eevee, mail-mi
Would need more convincing to vote: Ahoppy, raerae, nkirbit, Ashersky
Won't vote: everyone else.
Eevee I wasn't turning your words around, I thought you were ignoring the larger part of his post where he disagreed with you about me. By saying "he agrees with me" you are implying that he agrees with you on everything. You didn't say "he agrees with me about Ahoppy". So I was correcting that possible distortion. Sorry for the extra comment, though, I guess that was unnecessary.
Does shraeye fall in the "won't vote" category?
At this point, yes. I didn't like his case on TA or his reaction to my challenging it, but that was ages ago now. And he's defending me! I find that towny :)
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So I guess we are done for tonight? I'll be really interested to see what TA, chairs, Theorel and xeiron have to say about all this tomorrow.
Please let me claim first if I get to the point of being lynched while I'm gone.
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Okay, Ash: When I said would lynch, that was probably a little bit strong. Most of my uncertainty with you has been over your interactions with Xeiron, who, as I've repeated, I strongly believe to be scum. So I'm having uncertainties about your interactions with someone who I think is scum, but I don't know they're scum, so perhaps I'm being unfair in judging you before I see his flip. But I really do believe he's scum, so that's obviously going to be a factor in how I think about this game. I wouldn't choose you before mail-mi, xeiron, or ahoppy.. I think Shraeye is correct that we should be lynching background players.
Around post #775, in that general area, there's a lot of pressure about mail-mi. You and Eevee are grilling TA about his read on mail-mi in particular, which I think is great! In #798, you sum up your thoughts on mail-mi, which shows you've put a lot of thought into whether or not you think the case on him is good. Cool stuff.
There's a trend shortly afterwards of moving away from mail-mi and towards Xeiron, as typified by your post on #819 when you say "X is a good lynch too". In #839 you say "I think X is scummy, it's not like he's a bad lynch or anything. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum." And then you say "You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still." It's unclear why you didn't say the same thing when we were focused on mail-mi. It reads to me as if you're trying to stop all momentum on a potential Xeiron lynch before it gets going. I just feel like you didn't put the same effort into a potential Xeiron lynch that you did with a potential mail-mi lynch. I thought that at the time, and I still think that now.
Xeiron posts his "claim" at #958. You are away until #1057, when you come back and vote EFHW's reaction to X's claim. It's weird to me that you don't comment on whether you think he is town or not.. everyone else reacted, and I felt like they were putting effort into trying to sort through the claim, whether it made sense for town to post it, or scum to post it, and was working through it. You didn't provide your answer as to whether you thought it was legit or not until explicitly asked to, and even then very briefly discussed it (#1067). That's the second time I've felt that you haven't put in the effort to examining Xeiron that I felt the situation deserved and you put in elsewhere.
The tunneling EFHW is another concern, although it's minor compared to the Xeiron thing. It's scummy to tunnel a player to the point at which you find them scummy for another players post (even if it is a mistake). You're starting every read of every post of hers with the assumption EFHW=scum... of course you're always going to arrive at the conclusion EFHW=scum. But I think town can do this as well, so it's not nearly as big of an issue.
Look, I realize that this is all obviously based on my scum read on Xeiron. I have a strong scumread on him, and should he flip town, I will instantly drop a lot of the suspicion I have of you. And I obviously would much, much, much rather lynch Xeiron than yourself. But I do have concerns.
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WHEW. Finally caught up, albeit with some skimming and not terribly in depth reading.
So, at this point I think that we should let xerion run with his plan. What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming? Scum gets a pen and paper that they can presumably do something with, and there is a no lynch. There are only 2 benefits I see from a no-lynch for scum: Less information available to the town, and one of the scum isn't lynched. So if this is the case, then I would expect this suggestion to come from scum if one of their scum partners were at risk of being lynched. We haven't had someone at risk of being lynched all game, except perhaps spiritbears and well, he's gone. He was the only wagon at the time of Xerions claim. So logically, I'm going to have to take xerion at his word and believe he has a legitmate plan.
HOWEVER: I'm not convinced that we need a no-lynch to make this work. The only thing a no-lynch would secure, is that paper and pen stay in the game so xerion can get a hold of them. So who to lynch...
Through reading further, I'm not as convinced that EFHW's "scumslip" was actually a scumslip. I'll keep it in my mind, but I don't think that should be a reason to lynch.
Now back to ashersky/eevee. They made a pretty killer scumteam in mean girls, but they weren't aware that they were even on the same team D1, so it's hard to compare their D1 interactions as scum there to this game. But, I do know that D2 in mean girls, as soon as ash claimed, eevee was there to say he had no reason to disbelieve ash, and later to congratulate him
I think you timed coning out very well, Ash. Letting the discussion flow and trying to get mcmc lynched without claiming was definitely a good move.
Now here, Eevee and ash are buddying up again a bit. lemme see if I can find some quotes...
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure? It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.
That's fine.
But instead of reacting so much to what I'm saying about you, you ought to be saying:
"man, ash really seems focused on me so far this game, and I think undeservedly. We should note that as we watch his interactions. Could definitely seem scummy."
For what it's worth, I think if you are scum this game, you are playing scum badly. You were wicked good in Mean Girls. If I was your partner here, I'd be trying to deflect this conversation elsewhere. Only Ahoppy has done that so far.
here's one I mentioned earlier. Ash is trying to make eevee look townier, saying he is playing scum badly.
and a little later
Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!
It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
Us failing to communicate again. Or maybe you're actually trying to communicate more as scum partners? Yeah, too early to be calling partners, but still. Eevee pointing out that he thinks ash is town. Then earlier, post 442:
First, I appreciate you trying to get me more involved like that! Very protown work.
Second, hmm. I've been reading, and nothing has really stood out for me. Like all of the arguments have seemed like complicated constructing rather than emotionally unleashing without thinking, if that makes any sense.
I got the town read from your early aggressiveness. Raerae I think matches her town behaviour, but I don't have an opinion on if she is like that when scum as well.
Praising ash for his pro-town work. What makes it pro town? There were plenty other people who were under the radar, not just eevee and ash gets praised for bringing eevee back in. "Thanks for the reminder that I need to have more of a presence" perhaps?
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
eevee thinks that TA's spiritbears tunnel has the makings of a mislynch. Looking for towncred when spiritbears is mislynched?
Now closer to the present stuff:
We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
this could be easy towncred
anyway, after this, and knowing that I think we do need a lynch, I feel confident to finally put a vote down
Vote: Eevee
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Oh, and do we have a new soft deadline? Later at night works best for me. Like, otherwise I may not be able to get on...
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Okay, Ash: When I said would lynch, that was probably a little bit strong. Most of my uncertainty with you has been over your interactions with Xeiron, who, as I've repeated, I strongly believe to be scum. So I'm having uncertainties about your interactions with someone who I think is scum, but I don't know they're scum, so perhaps I'm being unfair in judging you before I see his flip. But I really do believe he's scum, so that's obviously going to be a factor in how I think about this game. I wouldn't choose you before mail-mi, xeiron, or ahoppy.. I think Shraeye is correct that we should be lynching background players.
Around post #775, in that general area, there's a lot of pressure about mail-mi. You and Eevee are grilling TA about his read on mail-mi in particular, which I think is great! In #798, you sum up your thoughts on mail-mi, which shows you've put a lot of thought into whether or not you think the case on him is good. Cool stuff.
There's a trend shortly afterwards of moving away from mail-mi and towards Xeiron, as typified by your post on #819 when you say "X is a good lynch too". In #839 you say "I think X is scummy, it's not like he's a bad lynch or anything. I won't stop an X lynch, but it'd be surprising for him to be scum." And then you say "You know the problem with an X lynch? Zero info gained from his flip, either way. I mean, that's a good reason to lurk if you are scum, but still." It's unclear why you didn't say the same thing when we were focused on mail-mi. It reads to me as if you're trying to stop all momentum on a potential Xeiron lynch before it gets going. I just feel like you didn't put the same effort into a potential Xeiron lynch that you did with a potential mail-mi lynch. I thought that at the time, and I still think that now.
Xeiron posts his "claim" at #958. You are away until #1057, when you come back and vote EFHW's reaction to X's claim. It's weird to me that you don't comment on whether you think he is town or not.. everyone else reacted, and I felt like they were putting effort into trying to sort through the claim, whether it made sense for town to post it, or scum to post it, and was working through it. You didn't provide your answer as to whether you thought it was legit or not until explicitly asked to, and even then very briefly discussed it (#1067). That's the second time I've felt that you haven't put in the effort to examining Xeiron that I felt the situation deserved and you put in elsewhere.
The tunneling EFHW is another concern, although it's minor compared to the Xeiron thing. It's scummy to tunnel a player to the point at which you find them scummy for another players post (even if it is a mistake). You're starting every read of every post of hers with the assumption EFHW=scum... of course you're always going to arrive at the conclusion EFHW=scum. But I think town can do this as well, so it's not nearly as big of an issue.
Look, I realize that this is all obviously based on my scum read on Xeiron. I have a strong scumread on him, and should he flip town, I will instantly drop a lot of the suspicion I have of you. And I obviously would much, much, much rather lynch Xeiron than yourself. But I do have concerns.
Nkirbit, good post.
I think I'm convinced about EFHW the way you are about Xeiron.
I think the problem with juxtaposing my commentary on X from before the claim and after is that a lot happened between the two. When I was like "eh, he's an okay lynch," it was when he was just lurking, and had that weird vote on raerae when I did my raerae gambit. My stuff after the claim was after he claimed a crapton, and to me become obvbadtown. And so now, I will fight against his lynch, whereas before, I would not have.
Still, good of you to pull stuff and put it together like this.
Where you talk about the grilling of mail-mi, I do think that stuff was important. I do find him scummy, and think he's a good option. I am just further convinced on EFHW than him.
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What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming?
A scum doesn't get lynched? That seems like a pretty good benefit.
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WHEW. Finally caught up, albeit with some skimming and not terribly in depth reading.
So, at this point I think that we should let xerion run with his plan. What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming? Scum gets a pen and paper that they can presumably do something with, and there is a no lynch. There are only 2 benefits I see from a no-lynch for scum: Less information available to the town, and one of the scum isn't lynched. So if this is the case, then I would expect this suggestion to come from scum if one of their scum partners were at risk of being lynched. We haven't had someone at risk of being lynched all game, except perhaps spiritbears and well, he's gone. He was the only wagon at the time of Xerions claim. So logically, I'm going to have to take xerion at his word and believe he has a legitmate plan.
HOWEVER: I'm not convinced that we need a no-lynch to make this work. The only thing a no-lynch would secure, is that paper and pen stay in the game so xerion can get a hold of them. So who to lynch...
Through reading further, I'm not as convinced that EFHW's "scumslip" was actually a scumslip. I'll keep it in my mind, but I don't think that should be a reason to lynch.
Now back to ashersky/eevee. They made a pretty killer scumteam in mean girls, but they weren't aware that they were even on the same team D1, so it's hard to compare their D1 interactions as scum there to this game. But, I do know that D2 in mean girls, as soon as ash claimed, eevee was there to say he had no reason to disbelieve ash, and later to congratulate him
I think you timed coning out very well, Ash. Letting the discussion flow and trying to get mcmc lynched without claiming was definitely a good move.
Now here, Eevee and ash are buddying up again a bit. lemme see if I can find some quotes...
Ash is either running another
gambit, being very clumsy as scum or just having a severe case of tunnel vision.
"Hmm, what he is doing is what I'd associate with his town meta, so he is scum trying to imitate that" is not a reasonable argument, but I don't think we need to have a conversation for everyone to see that.
Why are you reacting under (just my) pressure? It isn't like you are in any danger.
Why would i let you get away with undeserved pressuring? Like certainly this behavior of yours is worth noting in taking a read on you, it's good material to analyze.
That's fine.
But instead of reacting so much to what I'm saying about you, you ought to be saying:
"man, ash really seems focused on me so far this game, and I think undeservedly. We should note that as we watch his interactions. Could definitely seem scummy."
For what it's worth, I think if you are scum this game, you are playing scum badly. You were wicked good in Mean Girls. If I was your partner here, I'd be trying to deflect this conversation elsewhere. Only Ahoppy has done that so far.
here's one I mentioned earlier. Ash is trying to make eevee look townier, saying he is playing scum badly.
and a little later
Oh, there is no scum read. There was a brief temptation to OMGUS you, but ultimately I do think it's just us failing to communicate again. Scum ash tends to be nicer to me!
It's a bit frustrating to have a town read on someone who you think is unreasonably tunneling you, but it is what it is.
Us failing to communicate again. Or maybe you're actually trying to communicate more as scum partners? Yeah, too early to be calling partners, but still. Eevee pointing out that he thinks ash is town. Then earlier, post 442:
First, I appreciate you trying to get me more involved like that! Very protown work.
Second, hmm. I've been reading, and nothing has really stood out for me. Like all of the arguments have seemed like complicated constructing rather than emotionally unleashing without thinking, if that makes any sense.
I got the town read from your early aggressiveness. Raerae I think matches her town behaviour, but I don't have an opinion on if she is like that when scum as well.
Praising ash for his pro-town work. What makes it pro town? There were plenty other people who were under the radar, not just eevee and ash gets praised for bringing eevee back in. "Thanks for the reminder that I need to have more of a presence" perhaps?
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
eevee thinks that TA's spiritbears tunnel has the makings of a mislynch. Looking for towncred when spiritbears is mislynched?
Now closer to the present stuff:
We shouldn't force xeiron into claimming anything.
this could be easy towncred
anyway, after this, and knowing that I think we do need a lynch, I feel confident to finally put a vote down
Vote: Eevee
This is interesting stuff, and it's always fun to hear about how my previous scum play was viewed.
I'd posit this though -- if Eevee and I are scum partners again, would we be this obvious in our banter? Like, not-so-secret obvious code calling my partner out for not doing a great job?
Granted, I could see myself planning something like this, but probably not on D1. Neither of us were in any danger around that time. I haven't come under much pressure at all all day. Eevee wasn't feeling any heat then either. I just don't see it.
Could Eevee be scum? Oh yeah. The case I built on him, while weak, was a real case. I don't see him being the D1 lynch, though.
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What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming?
A scum doesn't get lynched? That seems like a pretty good benefit.
He asked for two no-lynches, remember. So scum gets two free passes. I don't like that about the plan, and absolutely think we don't follow the plan.
So we lynch today, we lynch tomorrow. We don't lynch X. I don't think anyone should give him pen/paper, either.
He's either WIFOM'ed himself into surviving all game with no way to use his powers, or he's going to die at night. It's unfortunately, but that's the danger in these types of claims.
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What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming?
A scum doesn't get lynched? That seems like a pretty good benefit.
I guess you said that already, oops. But I think you are wrong about the wagons at the time.. I will go back and double check and post if this is not the case, but I'm pretty sure Xeiron had four votes on him when he claimed.
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What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming?
A scum doesn't get lynched? That seems like a pretty good benefit.
I guess you said that already, oops. But I think you are wrong about the wagons at the time.. I will go back and double check and post if this is not the case, but I'm pretty sure Xeiron had four votes on him when he claimed.
Who are you directing this at? Ahoppy?
X's claim definitely came while under pressure.
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Ahoppy: Why Eevee and not Ash, out of curiosity?
I wonder if Chairs is planning on sending Xeiron paper or not. Which he was around.
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What does scum have to benefit from his claim if he is fake-claiming?
A scum doesn't get lynched? That seems like a pretty good benefit.
I guess you said that already, oops. But I think you are wrong about the wagons at the time.. I will go back and double check and post if this is not the case, but I'm pretty sure Xeiron had four votes on him when he claimed.
Who are you directing this at? Ahoppy?
X's claim definitely came while under pressure.
Yes, I just checked, and he was at 4 votes when he claimed.
We haven't had someone at risk of being lynched all game, except perhaps spiritbears and well, he's gone. He was the only wagon at the time of Xerions claim. So logically, I'm going to have to take xerion at his word and believe he has a legitmate plan.
Ahoppy had said this. I think "he was the only wagon" refers to SB.. that's just not the case, if that's what you meant.
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For fun, let's deconstruct the claim as if X is scum. Here's the post:
I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
So he opens the claim with the no-lynch vote. He discusses it and supports it with the "more powerroles" argument and the extra info at night argument. He needs to make these arguments sound pro-town because of the pro-scum problems with not lynching.
Then he says he has a plan that can win town the game. Note the parenthetical use of town there to make sure we know he means town. That is something scum will do sometimes when they are self-conscious about pronouns such as "us." He has a plan, but can't share the details. Wants trust.
Then he asks for pen and paper. So, here is the only really specific part of the claim. And it's pretty easy to fake, given chairs had already claimed paper. DO YOU ALL NOW SEE WHY IT IS BAD TO CLAIM LIKE THAT? If X is scum, and if X needed a fake claim, he now had something others can confirm to use in it. One can assume pen is an okay thing to fake given we know paper is in the game.
These are the thought processes I think go into this if it is a fake claim.
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Are you at all anxious about the fact that the items he claimed he needs are the one item we have claimed and the item that most obviously matches it? I sure am.
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I keep going back to this
especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
which is EFHW's "scumslip" and seeing if I can see it as a scumslip.
Suppose you were in an open game, where you know that possible PRs are say, Cop, doctor, JK, tracker. Doesn't really matter what. If I were a VT, and thought that another player were cop, and for some reason wanted to point it out, saying "This person could be a cop" seems like a perfectly natural way to say that, right? Even if you're unsure about whether there actually is a cop in the game or not, I don't think that would be odd or indicate knowledge of a cop in the game. This is the same phrase that EFHW used, pretty much, and I don't think that it indicated knowledge of a stealing power. Just my two cents upon re-reading EFHW.
Still working on the overall re-read. Man, they're daunting at this point.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
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Are you at all anxious about the fact that the items he claimed he needs are the one item we have claimed and the item that most obviously matches it? I sure am.
It's suspicious, yes.
Here's a question: a lot of assumptions about this have been that he wants to write something down or send a message. Do we think that this is a possible way of communication outside the game? Do we think that it would be the only way to do that?
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I keep going back to this
especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
which is EFHW's "scumslip" and seeing if I can see it as a scumslip.
Suppose you were in an open game, where you know that possible PRs are say, Cop, doctor, JK, tracker. Doesn't really matter what. If I were a VT, and thought that another player were cop, and for some reason wanted to point it out, saying "This person could be a cop" seems like a perfectly natural way to say that, right? Even if you're unsure about whether there actually is a cop in the game or not, I don't think that would be odd or indicate knowledge of a cop in the game. This is the same phrase that EFHW used, pretty much, and I don't think that it indicated knowledge of a stealing power. Just my two cents upon re-reading EFHW.
Still working on the overall re-read. Man, they're daunting at this point.
In your example, the fact that a "cop" exists is known, so the assumption there works.
In the EFHW post, the "stealing stuff" is not a known fact, it's a guess. But she wrote it as if it was a known fact, like your cop example.
So, your analogy makes me more convinced it is a slip, not less.
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Are you at all anxious about the fact that the items he claimed he needs are the one item we have claimed and the item that most obviously matches it? I sure am.
It's suspicious, yes.
Here's a question: a lot of assumptions about this have been that he wants to write something down or send a message. Do we think that this is a possible way of communication outside the game? Do we think that it would be the only way to do that?
My guess is that it will only make you a bigger lynch target X...a sentiment I might agree with, since I'm not really down with your item request. (I have no idea what you're trying to make)....
I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die.
I am thinking about nightkills, but also on lynches in case some of you would like to lynch me to confirm that I am really town.
Xeiron clearly thinks so, at least. I think it's possible, but I can't say for sure.
If someone had evidence that there was another way to send messages other than pen and paper, it would be a pretty good reason for them to find Xeiron scummy.
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I keep going back to this
especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
which is EFHW's "scumslip" and seeing if I can see it as a scumslip.
Suppose you were in an open game, where you know that possible PRs are say, Cop, doctor, JK, tracker. Doesn't really matter what. If I were a VT, and thought that another player were cop, and for some reason wanted to point it out, saying "This person could be a cop" seems like a perfectly natural way to say that, right? Even if you're unsure about whether there actually is a cop in the game or not, I don't think that would be odd or indicate knowledge of a cop in the game. This is the same phrase that EFHW used, pretty much, and I don't think that it indicated knowledge of a stealing power. Just my two cents upon re-reading EFHW.
Still working on the overall re-read. Man, they're daunting at this point.
In your example, the fact that a "cop" exists is known, so the assumption there works.
In the EFHW post, the "stealing stuff" is not a known fact, it's a guess. But she wrote it as if it was a known fact, like your cop example.
So, your analogy makes me more convinced it is a slip, not less.
Sorry, I was unclear setting up the situation. Say there are 2 PRs in the game, and we know that Cop is an option, but not guaranteed. I still think that it would be a reasonable thing to say even if you didn't know that a cop was in the game.
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I keep going back to this
especially since scum could get a stealing power from items even if they don't have one now.
which is EFHW's "scumslip" and seeing if I can see it as a scumslip.
Suppose you were in an open game, where you know that possible PRs are say, Cop, doctor, JK, tracker. Doesn't really matter what. If I were a VT, and thought that another player were cop, and for some reason wanted to point it out, saying "This person could be a cop" seems like a perfectly natural way to say that, right? Even if you're unsure about whether there actually is a cop in the game or not, I don't think that would be odd or indicate knowledge of a cop in the game. This is the same phrase that EFHW used, pretty much, and I don't think that it indicated knowledge of a stealing power. Just my two cents upon re-reading EFHW.
Still working on the overall re-read. Man, they're daunting at this point.
In your example, the fact that a "cop" exists is known, so the assumption there works.
In the EFHW post, the "stealing stuff" is not a known fact, it's a guess. But she wrote it as if it was a known fact, like your cop example.
So, your analogy makes me more convinced it is a slip, not less.
Sorry, I was unclear setting up the situation. Say there are 2 PRs in the game, and we know that Cop is an option, but not guaranteed. I still think that it would be a reasonable thing to say even if you didn't know that a cop was in the game.
Which is kind of fine, as that's something neither town or scum would know.
But we're talking about scum powers. So say "godfather" was the term in question. Someone can actually know that's in the game without being one. Not the cop.
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I get what you're saying, but I think it's less clear cut than you do because TA was the one who brought up the idea of stealing first, not EFHW. Had EFHW been the first one to bring it up, I agree that it would have been a slam dunk scumslip, but I'm not as sure given that it wasn't something she brought up herself.. she was directly replying to someone else speculating about it.
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Fair enough.
Alright, as mentioned, super limited availability starting now. I may be able to check in from time to time. My thoughts are out there.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Well it is 553 posts later. I had forgotten about those earlier impressions. I also wasn't ok with Ash putting me on Ahoppy's hypothetical wagon.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Well it is 553 posts later. I had forgotten about those earlier impressions. I also wasn't ok with Ash putting me on Ahoppy's hypothetical wagon.
I think the problem is exactly the fact that AHoppy is background. While others are stirring up trouble, it's easy to focus on any little suspicion from that while the real scum fade into the background. I feel like I'm saying this at every opportunity, but it's the players taht you don't remember that are the most suspicious. Lacking an obvious reason to categorize them as towny/scummy, we tend to put them in null and forget about them. Scum love that.
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For fun, let's deconstruct the claim as if X is scum. Here's the post:
I probably won't make myself more popular with this, but vote: no-lynch
I have given this some thought and I think nolynch is a lot better in this game that most other games.
Nolynch ensure us more powerroles still in the game. Both because of any starting power a lynchée might have and because of the items that could boost the other players. It think the extra information we gain at night by not lynching town could make up for us missing a chance to lynch scum.
Besides I have come up with a plan that i hope can win us(town) this game. I can't tell you the details yet so you would have to trust me on this one. The first step is obviously to no-lynch today. For the rest to work more smoothly I would like to make an item request.
Could you please send me a pen and some paper during the night?
So he opens the claim with the no-lynch vote. He discusses it and supports it with the "more powerroles" argument and the extra info at night argument. He needs to make these arguments sound pro-town because of the pro-scum problems with not lynching.
Then he says he has a plan that can win town the game. Note the parenthetical use of town there to make sure we know he means town. That is something scum will do sometimes when they are self-conscious about pronouns such as "us." He has a plan, but can't share the details. Wants trust.
Then he asks for pen and paper. So, here is the only really specific part of the claim. And it's pretty easy to fake, given chairs had already claimed paper. DO YOU ALL NOW SEE WHY IT IS BAD TO CLAIM LIKE THAT? If X is scum, and if X needed a fake claim, he now had something others can confirm to use in it. One can assume pen is an okay thing to fake given we know paper is in the game.
These are the thought processes I think go into this if it is a fake claim.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this exercise.
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He asked for two no-lynches, remember. So scum gets two free passes. I don't like that about the plan, and absolutely think we don't follow the plan.
So we lynch today, we lynch tomorrow. We don't lynch X. I don't think anyone should give him pen/paper, either.
I think the two no-lynches are not a good idea. Lynching seems to only hurt xeiron's plan if it's the paper giver, the pen giver, or xeiron hiimself. Well I'm not going to lynch xeiron, I won't lynch chairs, and I think the risk of hitting pen-giver out of the remaining is worth the chance to hit scum.
If I have control of pen/paper, I will absolutely give it to xeiron. I don't understand why you want to not lynch xeiron, but you also don't want to let him try his plan by giving him paper/pen.
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Wow, this game is crazy active. I think we're over-reaching the value of day1 at this point.
@everyone finding xeiron townier for suggesting no lynch. Are we actually doing it? No. What's the outcome of the suggestion he made? lynch anyone but xeiron. That's why it's a survivalist tell, that's why it's actually scummy NOT townie. If xeiron is scum, we've just upped our chances of hitting town but some fair margin.
And, here's the kicker...he's already noted that he'll be alive tomorrow and wants us not to lynch him AGAIN. You know who knows they'll survive nights? scum.
But, he did apparently do something similar recently. I wasn't there, but I do wonder if it was also after he was already under pressure? I dunno, every time nkirbit posts he's making sense about it, and when someone else posts it doesn't quite make sense.
Final note regarding xeiron (response to his last response to me even though there are 5 million posts in between): @xeiron: it read to me as you characterizing me scummy for concentrating on math instead of scumhunting. Now, it's true you didn't vote, and were questioning rather than accusing, but it's still claiming something scummy (or suspicious, or "problematic" or whatever) that you're doing yourself, and that is suspect.
That said, there really doesn't seem to be sufficient support for his lynch. Based on my reading, it looked like the lynch candidates were efhw, ahoppy, and eevee.
I'm going to do a vote count, and decide which of these I support the most. I really doubt it's efhw though. I'm really not finding her scummy in any of this.
btw we never came to any sort of consensus on a soft deadline, which is kind of bad. The absolute latest deadline suggested was Wednesday evening. But after Sunday evening and yesterday evening, this day is already past the point of reasonable to re-read. We need to END THIS DAY already. There are too many arguments around for why people are scum. Some people just need to sacrifice their reads and go along to make a lynch happen. I know some people think that's super-scummy, but it's how we move the game forward. And this game NEEDS to move forward.
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Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (3) nkirbit, raerae, theorel
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (2) EFHW, ahoppy
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (3) AHoppy, Twistedarcher, chairs
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I'm a moron, I forgot to remove people from their old vote.
Real Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (2) nkirbit, theorel
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (2) EFHW, ahoppy
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (2), Twistedarcher, chairs
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I'm with theorel, let's just get this day over with.
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Okay, well that's unfortunate.
I have reasons for and against each of these.
Efhw:
pros: biggest current wagon (that's a pretty strong reason at this stage).
cons: I really don't think the case on efhw is worth much. It seems like it's nitpicking how she's saying things rather than what she's saying/doing. She still reads rather townie to me.
Eevee:
pros: I think I agree with this case the most. People are providing compelling reasoning here regarding quick changes of mind according to whatever direction the game is going.
cons: it's the smallest wagon (as it already has BOTH other lynch candidates on it, it's technically smaller than AHoppy's). Eevee is a big contributor, and I don't love lynching big contributors.
AHoppy:
pros: It's (arguably) a bigger wagon than Eevee, and a better case than efhw.
cons: It's mostly just a null read wagon. I don't like lynching people for under-contributing, especially given that he's starting to contribute more.
Alright, I think I'll vote: Eevee for now, because I find it the most compelling case. My town-read was very gut-based, and the scum case seems more logical. I'll try to reread (all 3 if I can) and see if I hate my vote sometime today, but in the interest of moving forward, this case gets the most support from me at the moment.
I'm a moron, I forgot to remove people from their old vote.
Real Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, ahoppy, theorel
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (2), Twistedarcher, chairs
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Come to think of it, I could easily be swayed to vote xerion. What are the things he wanted?
No lynch
Paper
Pen
Two of those things have been discussed before today (no lynch and paper) and I don't see it being a very far jump to pen. And as nk pointed out, I was wrong about wagons earlier, the wagon was on x, so this is an easy claim to save his own skin. I was just thinking earlier about saving his partner's skins, and forgot about him trying to save himself.
As to why I chose Eevee over ashersky, it was because the Eevee lynch is more likely to go through and Eevee is more of a background character than ash at this point. He's not lurking, but he's not a frontrunner.
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If there's support for X I'll gladly switch back. But I'm not sure we can get to 7. At the least I know that ashersky, shraeye, raerae, efhw, and xeiron oppose it.
I'm not sure about chairs, eevee, twistedarcher, and mail-mi (Note: because I don't remember, not necessarily because they haven't said). But they would all need to be on board, or someone from the other group would need to change their mind.
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Alright, I can switch if the votes get up there. I still like Eevee too.
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Eevee:
pros: I think I agree with this case the most. People are providing compelling reasoning here regarding quick changes of mind according to whatever direction the game is going.
cons: it's the smallest wagon (as it already has BOTH other lynch candidates on it, it's technically smaller than AHoppy's). Eevee is a big contributor, and I don't love lynching big contributors.
Alright, I think I'll vote: Eevee for now, because I find it the most compelling case. My town-read was very gut-based, and the scum case seems more logical. I'll try to reread (all 3 if I can) and see if I hate my vote sometime today, but in the interest of moving forward, this case gets the most support from me at the moment.
Hoold on! No way that's true. I've been indecisive, but it hasn't been "according to whatever direction the game is going", on the contrary I was actually opposing the mail-mi and spirit lynches when they were starting to gain momentum.
If you for some reason think changing your mind back and forth is scummy, by all means vote for me. But you can't really say I'm changing my mind according to the direction the game is going if I post something, then 5 minutes go by and I quote myself saying "hmm, ultimately I think thing B overrules this thing A I mentioned here, so..".
Actually, yeah. I don't know why I'm being considered a good lynch target. I'm not even "feeling off" to people, and I don't think changing your mind often is reasonable grounds for suspicion unless the mind-changes seem to be favoring scum's agenda.
It should be pretty clear from my posts I don't proofread them or necessarily even think things through before posting. That can obviously lead to changes of heart (because I continue to think about the game after posting, some of the posts are sort of thinking out loud if you will).
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That was my sense of the case against you. Note that I'm judging the case here, and really more the sense of the case I got after reading the 10-or-so pages since yesterday.
I'll also note regarding meta, that the time I thought you were off, you were town. So, I'm not putting a lot of stock in that (it's just all I had from before).
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Come to think of it, I could easily be swayed to vote xerion. What are the things he wanted?
No lynch
Paper
Pen
Two of those things have been discussed before today (no lynch and paper) and I don't see it being a very far jump to pen. And as nk pointed out, I was wrong about wagons earlier, the wagon was on x, so this is an easy claim to save his own skin. I was just thinking earlier about saving his partner's skins, and forgot about him trying to save himself.
As to why I chose Eevee over ashersky, it was because the Eevee lynch is more likely to go through and Eevee is more of a background character than ash at this point. He's not lurking, but he's not a frontrunner.
Alright, I can switch if the votes get up there. I still like Eevee too.
I agree with Theorel that this day needs to end. These last two posts scream "anyone but me!" to me.
Vote: Ahoppy
I don't want to lynch Xeiron since I believe his claim/plan (even if I think it's really overstretched and pretty terrible and there's no way it works), I think Ash's case on EFHW, and her scumslip, it not that great. I'd be more tempted to vote Eevee, and would if that's the road we're going down, but I think Ahoppy is the background player most likely to flip scum.
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That was my sense of the case against you. Note that I'm judging the case here, and really more the sense of the case I got after reading the 10-or-so pages since yesterday.
I'll also note regarding meta, that the time I thought you were off, you were town. So, I'm not putting a lot of stock in that (it's just all I had from before).
Well I'd like someone to provide examples if that's the case. I actually can't remember anyone else taking the leap to saying "his mind has been changing according to the game state", I think earlier people were just saying "it's scummy to change your mind!".
theorel's playstyle is such that he is never going to be a day1 lynch, but if it ever was going to happen, I wouldn't mind today. That vote on me was for not good reasons (and I hold him to a high standard regarding these things).
Then again, it's not like all the alternatives can be his scumbuddies, so it doesn't make any sense for him to intentionally misrepresent me.
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I'm more suspicious of Ash than I was earlier this day. I think his tunnels on Raerae and Eevee were good for town, but I'm less certain on this tunnel at EFHW. He very well could just be sold on the scumslip 100%, but I think he's been tunneling a weak case on EFHW rather than considering more solid cases. While his tunnels early on were good for moving the game along, his most recent tunnel hasn't done that. He could have noted that he got town cred for his early tunnels, and decided that's what he's doing this game (or at least this D1), and tried it again with EFHW.
We need a lynch soon, people.
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Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wouldn't EFHW being in super scramble mode make her scummy? It's not often we see EFHW in super scramble mode.
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Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wouldn't EFHW being in super scramble mode make her scummy? It's not often we see EFHW in super scramble mode.
I don't know that she wouldn't go to scramble mode as scared town. It really sucks to let your team down by being the day 1 lynch either way.
Would lynch
EFHW
Ahoppy
theorel
shraeye
Would probably lynch
raerae
chairs
mail-mi maybe?
ash maybe?
Varying degrees of town reads
xeiron
nkirbit
TA
Meh, it's all very close, the people within the same category are in no particular order.
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Okay, well that's unfortunate.
I have reasons for and against each of these.
Efhw:
pros: biggest current wagon (that's a pretty strong reason at this stage).
cons: I really don't think the case on efhw is worth much. It seems like it's nitpicking how she's saying things rather than what she's saying/doing. She still reads rather townie to me.
Eevee:
pros: I think I agree with this case the most. People are providing compelling reasoning here regarding quick changes of mind according to whatever direction the game is going.
cons: it's the smallest wagon (as it already has BOTH other lynch candidates on it, it's technically smaller than AHoppy's). Eevee is a big contributor, and I don't love lynching big contributors.
AHoppy:
pros: It's (arguably) a bigger wagon than Eevee, and a better case than efhw.
cons: It's mostly just a null read wagon. I don't like lynching people for under-contributing, especially given that he's starting to contribute more.
Alright, I think I'll vote: Eevee for now, because I find it the most compelling case. My town-read was very gut-based, and the scum case seems more logical. I'll try to reread (all 3 if I can) and see if I hate my vote sometime today, but in the interest of moving forward, this case gets the most support from me at the moment.
I'm a moron, I forgot to remove people from their old vote.
Real Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, ahoppy, theorel
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (2), Twistedarcher, chairs
Since you're voting Eevee for agreeing with the case on him, can you remind me what the case on Eevee is?
I'd like to hear it from you, and not from anyone else. I get that you're pushing a vote through because we NEED a lynch (and I 100% agree), but I'm not convinced that you actually know what the case is (or that anyone's made a true case on Eevee yet). There's been lots of little scummy things, I agree, but what specifically gives you a scum read / makes you ok with lynching Eevee?
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Nkirbit, chairs, I think there's enough people opposed to the Xeiron lynch that it's not going to happen. You two should switch your votes to one of the other current wagons.
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Eevee: why would you vote chairs, when it seems like everyone else has a super town read on him?
TA: are you going to put a vote down?
Everyone: I'm done posting for today until evening. If I'm the lynch, let me speak before the hammer. Thanks!
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Eevee: why would you vote chairs, when it seems like everyone else has a super town read on him?
TA: are you going to put a vote down?
Everyone: I'm done posting for today until evening. If I'm the lynch, let me speak before the hammer. Thanks!
There is only so towny you can be with 24 posts (20 after game start) in 50 pages.
I'm not saying chairs is super scummy, but claiming to have paper and generally seeming genuine (and likeable, the fact that he is funny does make me / I assume others feel better about him) is the only reason for his town cred really. His contributions other than that aren't really earth-shattering.
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Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
I don't actually think Ashersky is scum. I think he is over confident. But your saying you agree when a minute ago you didn't, is very similar what you did with TA and with mail-mi. I think you may well be scum. VOTE: Eevee
PPE: I typed this before seeing that Eevee voted for me.
Looking back over the two votes you had previously, this is the one that stuck in my mind. AHoppy's case seems to be a scum-pairs case. It's also long. I'm pretty sure I glossed it.
The argument to me sounds like you switched from disagreement to agreement in 3 cases. (here and 2 previous).
I don't remember the mail-mi incident at all.
TA went scum-read to town-read from you (this I remember). I haven't heard a lot of pressure regarding TwistedArcher since that time, and I remember several people pushing back against the idea of a TA lynch because of his activity. (I could be wrong here, it was a while ago in the scheme of what's happened). I don't know how those line up without rereading, but that was the gist of it for me.
Now, I read this and just took it for granted (as I said, judged the case not the player), and assumed that efhw was saying this was the same. Of course, it was happening then, and I felt like public opinion was against efhw rather than ashersky, so it seemed like you changed your tune to that of least resistance.
Looking back, it seems like it may just have been ashersky/mail-mi pushing the efhw case, efhw defending, and approximately no one else talking. (raerae said some stuff, but it was unrelated).
That was the case I was voting for. The validity of that case is fairly in question. If anyone with better memory/more time wants to illuminate on these that'd be cool.
Side Note: I think if AHoppy was really saying "anyone but me!" he'd have voted for efhw.
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theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.
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Here's a fun (and hopefully helpful) exercise.
So we do have a flip already! We know that Spiritbears is town. Even though that wagon never got even close to lynching, I think it will be useful to analyze people's opinions on Spiritbears.
#447 TA makes original case on SB, votes (also has many many posts pushing the case. I'm not going to list them all, but I was frequently and consistently pushing the case).
#453 Theorel says he finds Spiritbears scummy for "adding fuel to the fire"
#466 Xeiron thinks Spiritbears is town
#468 EFHW has a townread on Spiritbears
#485 Eevee says this has all the makings of a mislynch
#495 Nkirbit sheeps Eevee's view from #485
#520 Ashersky says "SB looks pretty towny out of all of this"
#522 mail-mi says that "SB does seem a little different"
#630 Ahoppy thinks that SB looks pretty scummy
#648 Nkirbit votes SB. "Mainly for the aggresiveness"
#673 Chairs says there's likely one scum in SB/TA, votes TA
#748 Shraeye says SB is a foreground player, doesn't want to lynch a foreground player
#750 Raerae says SB's reaction is similar to the game-that-shall-not-be-named
#844 Eevee: "I'm not against spirit lynch, I'm actually very null on him come to think of it.. which is a scum trait, ding ding."
#845 Ashersky: "I'm neutral on sb. Could go either way."
The three players who had their opinions change over time on Spiritbears were Nkirbit, Eevee, and Ashersky.
Nkirbit went from agreeing that the Spiritbears lynch had all the makings of to voting him. He stated, in his vote, that it was less due to a read, and more due to the fact that he disliked SB's aggressiveness. That's not why he should be voting someone, probably, but if it's true, I don't think the switch makes Nkirbit too scummy.
Eevee's flip-flop on SB was the most problematic, to me. Early on, he proclaimed "this has all the makings of a mislynch!"
However, by #844, when I pressure people for their views on the case, he actually comes back with a scummier read on Spiritbears, clearly no longer thinking it was a mislynch. Now, this may very well be due to the fact that he went from a scum-read to a town-read on myself, making my case less "dangerous" in his eyes, but this is still a pretty noticeable switch on Eevee's part.
Ashersky's flip is almost the same as Eevee's flip. Once again, it may be due to the fact that he initially found SB towny due to a scum-read on Eevee, and Eevee proclaiming SB as towny. As his scum read on Eevee lessened (I think it lessened, at least?), this could also move SB from a town read to a null read.
There's the people who proclaimed SB towny (and were correct): Raerae, Shraeye, xeiron, EFHW. Now, if these people were scum, they KNEW SB was town. But I don't think SB was in any serious danger of getting lynched at any point, so I think some of these people may have stepped in to help push along the lynch, if necessary. So a get a townier read from these people.
Theorel and Ahoppy and mail-mi said that they found SB anywhere from "a little different" to "scummy". These people are more suspicious than the previous group -- they could have seen an easy mislynch, and wanted to help push it along. Notable, though, is that none of these people actually put a vote down. I find these people more suspicious than the previous group, but less suspicious than Eevee and Ashersky.
I think Eevee and Ashersky come off scummiest from this wagon, due to their changes on SB, despite the fact that the only thing SB was doing was refusing to defend himself, again and again (to be fair, I found this scummy as well).
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Chairs should also be included in the group finding SB towny.
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Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.
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Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.
Oh, absolutely. He /outed soon afterwards, anyways, so you didn't really have a chance.
Why did you start having doubts? It's not like his view changed, and he was defending himself aggressively and not answering my questions but he'd been doing that all along
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theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.
Well, my choices are:
efhw: bad case
ahoppy: null case
eevee: questionable case.
Honestly, I don't like any of the options presented. I want to lynch Xeiron. But there's not enough support there. Questionable is the best option there (IMO).
I will try to reread by the end of the day, but we need to move the day forward, so I'm choosing from what I see as viable lynches in order to do so.
Let's try a different tack. Why do you think efhw is scum? (The only thing I've seen as an argument is that ashersky is irrationally tunneling her, therefore she must be scum.)
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Fwiw, I never started pushing for SB, I stopped actively defending him because I started having doubts.
Oh, absolutely. He /outed soon afterwards, anyways, so you didn't really have a chance.
Why did you start having doubts? It's not like his view changed, and he was defending himself aggressively and not answering my questions but he'd been doing that all along
I think his posting slowed down a lot, and I didn't see any new towny looking content in them.
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For theorel: I get that the case is questionable, but please answer this. What exactly is the case, in your words?
Since you're voting Eevee for agreeing with the case on him, can you remind me what the case on Eevee is?
I'd like to hear it from you, and not from anyone else. I get that you're pushing a vote through because we NEED a lynch (and I 100% agree), but I'm not convinced that you actually know what the case is (or that anyone's made a true case on Eevee yet). There's been lots of little scummy things, I agree, but what specifically gives you a scum read / makes you ok with lynching Eevee?
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theorel, you say the validity of the case against me is fairly in question, yet you keep your vote on me at this critical time. Shouldn't you try to either read back to check if the case checks out / if you agree with it, or move your vote to some case that you know isn't a misrepresentation (either intentional or not)? It baffles me you choose to use your vote like this, but I don't even think it's necessarily scummy as I would imagine you'd be more careful than this if scum.
Well, my choices are:
efhw: bad case
ahoppy: null case
eevee: questionable case.
Honestly, I don't like any of the options presented. I want to lynch Xeiron. But there's not enough support there. Questionable is the best option there (IMO).
I will try to reread by the end of the day, but we need to move the day forward, so I'm choosing from what I see as viable lynches in order to do so.
Let's try a different tack. Why do you think efhw is scum? (The only thing I've seen as an argument is that ashersky is irrationally tunneling her, therefore she must be scum.)
Calling the case on me questionable is mighty generous though. How about Eevee: "Lynching him for something he thinks he hasn't done without looking back to check who is right". I'm not even sure anyone but you is claiming my changes of hearts have been due to the popular opinion!
I know we look for different things, I don't believe going after egregiously scummy things is the way to catch scum day 1 (or ever). EFHW has been on the spotlight a lot, but not entirely by her choice. Mostly her reactions to ashersky's tunneling haven't felt heartfelt to me, it's a feeling thing. Well, and her in my opinion unreasonable suspicion of me might be clouding my judgement. Fwiw I actually started having doubts about that lynch too last night, but I'm starting to think it's just too late and I hate changing my vote all the time without being able to sufficiently explain why it's happening.
Ultimately, we do need to lynch someone, I can't just start building a shraeye or theorel case anymore, I don't like the xeiron lynch, have quite equal opinion of ahoppy and EFHW and obviously very much oppose lynching Eevee.
I'm actually having misgivings about that too (:))
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Scratch that last line, it shouldn't be there!
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I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point. It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?
scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew! I got them off my back"
town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."
But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why? Because he's scum!
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I'd claim that, Eevee (that your changes of heart have been suspicious)
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Being a a small presence is in line with how xeiron has played town before.
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I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point. It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?
scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew! I got them off my back"
town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."
But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why? Because he's scum!
His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!
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I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point. It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?
scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew! I got them off my back"
town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."
But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why? Because he's scum!
His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!
Ugh. I don't want to pick a wagon with a player that I think will flip scum 33% of the time when there's a player that I think will flip scum 90% of the time, but you're probably right.
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I still am very concerned about Xeiron's non-presence in this game at this point. It's clear we're not going to no-lynch, right?
scum!Xeiron, at this point, would probably be thinking "phew! I got them off my back"
town!Xeiron would be thinking "Well, we're not going to no lynch.. I should be trying to scumhunt and helping reduce our chances of a mislynch."
But we don't have Xeiron here trying to scum hunt! Why? Because he's scum!
His lynch isn't going to happen today I don't think. You should pick a new wagon!
Ugh. I don't want to pick a wagon with a player that I think will flip scum 33% of the time when there's a player that I think will flip scum 90% of the time, but you're probably right.
I understand, but there's enough people who think Xeiron is town that his lynch isn't going to go through. We really need this day to end, and if Xeiron isn't getting lynched (which I don't think he is), your vote being parked there doesn't help us out at all.
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Chairs, you're the dispenser of the paper. Do you believe Xeiron?
Obviously we can't trust Xeiron 100%, but I'm willing to see what happens with this part of the plan. I don't agree with the no-lynch overall, though, so I'm still considering whom to lynch.
Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.
LIGHTHOUSE AVATAR = 1000% SCUMREAD LYNCH TWICE ;D I'm again stuck between "man, it kind of feels like ashersky might be scumtunneling" and "man, EFHW is really caught off-kilter on this, is it because it's scum desperately trying to get onto another wagon". I'm almost tempted to suggest a slight townread for both and that this is some heavy TvT action, because they both seem so genuine (EFHW slightly less so, but I'm somewhat chalking that up to being on the defense).
He asked for two no-lynches, remember. So scum gets two free passes. I don't like that about the plan, and absolutely think we don't follow the plan.
So we lynch today, we lynch tomorrow. We don't lynch X. I don't think anyone should give him pen/paper, either.
I think the two no-lynches are not a good idea. Lynching seems to only hurt xeiron's plan if it's the paper giver, the pen giver, or xeiron hiimself. Well I'm not going to lynch xeiron, I won't lynch chairs, and I think the risk of hitting pen-giver out of the remaining is worth the chance to hit scum.
If I have control of pen/paper, I will absolutely give it to xeiron. I don't understand why you want to not lynch xeiron, but you also don't want to let him try his plan by giving him paper/pen.
I agree with shraeye and ashersky that the no-lynch idea seems risky at best, but ashersky makes a kind of scummy motion here saying "we shouldn't lynch X, but we shouldn't give him this stuff". Either he's town (and we want to accommodate him) or he's scum (and we don't). If he's scum, why not lynch? I don't get it (so in this situation I'm in agreement with shraeye).
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I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing. However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose. I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.
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I only have a minute here, so I'll summarize that my case on Eevee is for hopping on my wagon. That is also the reason mail-mi is my second choice. This isn't just because it's my wagon. It's because I think it was opportunistic. I also notice him OMGUS'ing both me and Theorel. When I have more time I'll go into more detail about the switches on mail-mi and TA.
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Vote Count 1.12
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel
AHoppy (3) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) chairs
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch; 6 to no-lynch
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You can check out this summary and use it to find the relevant areas of the thread for many of Eevee's TA and mail-mi posts.
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Ugh, I do agree with shraeye that we should vote a lurker, and would rather lynch Ahoppy than either Eevee or EFHW, but I have one major reservation about this lynch that makes me uncomfortable. It has to do with the leaked info from his one post... it was info that town would more likely have than scum. I know this is really vague, and I can elaborate, but don't think I should at this point.
I have a town read on Eevee, so won't be voting there.
EFHW I'm still null on. I not as convinced as Ash that it was a scum slip, but it could be. And that's really all I have on EFHW. And she's not a lurker.
I really am torn between the two of them. I know I said I would choose Ahoppy earlier, but I have a serious reservation, and I don't have one about EFHW. On the surface, I agree that Ahoppy has been lurking more and has not been scumhunting much. Basically, I have reasons to lynch ahoppy and a decent reason to not lynch ahoppy, but not much on EFHW at all, so I'm unsure of what to do.
I think the tie-breaker is going to have to be that I have the same feeling here that I had about EFHW in Shakespeare: No clue. In Shakespeare it turned out she was scum. I'm going to hope the same is true here if we end up on this lynch.
Vote: EFHW
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And before I go away, here's your next scheduled thought on why I think Xeiron is scummy!
So far, the items we have claimed in the game are lens (from SB), paper (from Chairs), and Phonograph (which SB received). These are either versatile items that could be used a number of ways, or items that are "already constructed" and seem to have an obvious use.
Xeiron claims that he has reason to believe there's a pen in the game. What the heck can you do with a pen, other than combine it with paper? It's neither versatile nor does it have a use alone, I'm guessing. If the objects we have appear to be either versatile items that can be used to construct a number of different things, which lens and paper are, or already constructed machines, like phonograph, then why is a pen in the game? What possible use can it have other than pen + paper? It doesn't seem to fit.
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I agree that we should end the day as soon as possible. And I think the best way to do so would be to no-lynch.
Some of you have stated consern over no-lynching to days in a row. I still insist that this is a good idea, but if I had to choose one, a no-lynch today is more important.
Part of my problem with lynching someone today is because I think we are heading towards a mislynch and I think a mislynch would be bad today. In the votecount below I see one no-lynch wagon and four town wagons. I could of course be wrong about that, but do not think it is worth the risk to lynch any of them.
Vote Count 1.12
xeiron (1) nkirbit
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (3) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel
AHoppy (3) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) chairs
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch; 6 to no-lynch
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Xeiron: If you want a no-lynch because all of the wagons are bad, what wagons do you think would be good?
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Xeiron: If you want a no-lynch because all of the wagons are bad, what wagons do you think would be good?
I think Shraeye, Twistedarcher, mail-mi and nkirbit are all better options that EFHW, Eevee and Ahoppy.
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Why?
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Xeiron: If you want a no-lynch because all of the wagons are bad, what wagons do you think would be good?
I think Shraeye, Twistedarcher, mail-mi and nkirbit are all better options that EFHW, Eevee and Ahoppy.
Please explain your reads. I don't think you've done so at any point?
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Nkirbit speaks so much sense about Xeiron...I think he's town but ugh everytime I read one of Nkirbit's posts, I start to wonder..
Nkirbit, about Ahoppy. How sure are you about this "reservation" you have?
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Not at all sure. I'm making a couple of assumptions. I'm assuming that I'm correctly gaining the info I'm gaining from his post, and assuming that the info makes him town. Both assumptions are over 50% by a good deal, but put them together and it's far away from a slam dunk, but still somewhat significant.
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One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
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Ugh, I do agree with shraeye that we should vote a lurker, and would rather lynch Ahoppy than either Eevee or EFHW, but I have one major reservation about this lynch that makes me uncomfortable. It has to do with the leaked info from his one post... it was info that town would more likely have than scum. I know this is really vague, and I can elaborate, but don't think I should at this point.
I have a town read on Eevee, so won't be voting there.
EFHW I'm still null on. I not as convinced as Ash that it was a scum slip, but it could be. And that's really all I have on EFHW. And she's not a lurker.
I really am torn between the two of them. I know I said I would choose Ahoppy earlier, but I have a serious reservation, and I don't have one about EFHW. On the surface, I agree that Ahoppy has been lurking more and has not been scumhunting much. Basically, I have reasons to lynch ahoppy and a decent reason to not lynch ahoppy, but not much on EFHW at all, so I'm unsure of what to do.
I think the tie-breaker is going to have to be that I have the same feeling here that I had about EFHW in Shakespeare: No clue. In Shakespeare it turned out she was scum. I'm going to hope the same is true here if we end up on this lynch.
Vote: EFHW
So all you have is that you have a null read, I'm towny like I was in Shakespeare, and Ashersky thinks I made a scumslip. I knew I could expect to get increased mistrust after Shakespeare, but even so I don't think town!you would vote based on this, and given the interactions between you and Eevee, and your crusade against xeiron, I'd venture to say you and Eevee may be partners.
This is an aside with no scientific basis whatsoever, but my subjective impression is that posts starting with "Ugh" or "Argh" tend to be by scum. Has anyone else observed that? Also purely subjective, the first paragraph of nkirbit's post reads scummy to me.
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One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
Does fit with Pirates, though!
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I said ugh and argh because I'm not happy about it. I won't be happy if we lynch anyone except for Xeiron. I think I've been pretty clear on that.
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Ugh, I do agree with shraeye that we should vote a lurker, and would rather lynch Ahoppy than either Eevee or EFHW, but I have one major reservation about this lynch that makes me uncomfortable. It has to do with the leaked info from his one post... it was info that town would more likely have than scum. I know this is really vague, and I can elaborate, but don't think I should at this point.
I have a town read on Eevee, so won't be voting there.
EFHW I'm still null on. I not as convinced as Ash that it was a scum slip, but it could be. And that's really all I have on EFHW. And she's not a lurker.
I really am torn between the two of them. I know I said I would choose Ahoppy earlier, but I have a serious reservation, and I don't have one about EFHW. On the surface, I agree that Ahoppy has been lurking more and has not been scumhunting much. Basically, I have reasons to lynch ahoppy and a decent reason to not lynch ahoppy, but not much on EFHW at all, so I'm unsure of what to do.
I think the tie-breaker is going to have to be that I have the same feeling here that I had about EFHW in Shakespeare: No clue. In Shakespeare it turned out she was scum. I'm going to hope the same is true here if we end up on this lynch.
Vote: EFHW
So all you have is that you have a null read, I'm towny like I was in Shakespeare, and Ashersky thinks I made a scumslip. I knew I could expect to get increased mistrust after Shakespeare, but even so I don't think town!you would vote based on this, and given the interactions between you and Eevee, and your crusade against xeiron, I'd venture to say you and Eevee may be partners.
This is an aside with no scientific basis whatsoever, but my subjective impression is that posts starting with "Ugh" or "Argh" tend to be by scum. Has anyone else observed that? Also purely subjective, the first paragraph of nkirbit's post reads scummy to me.
It's a null-read because I'm having difficultly nailing down a read on you, rather than having a lot of information and not being sure what it means. I had the same feeling in Shakespeare, and translated it to a town read, which was incorrect. Again, it may just be that I have a hard time reading you regardless. I'm far from sold on this case. But I have a townread on Eevee and a serious reservation about lynching Ahoppy, so you're what's left by process of elimination. It's an extremely weak case, I know.
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Ugh, I do agree with shraeye that we should vote a lurker, and would rather lynch Ahoppy than either Eevee or EFHW, but I have one major reservation about this lynch that makes me uncomfortable. It has to do with the leaked info from his one post... it was info that town would more likely have than scum. I know this is really vague, and I can elaborate, but don't think I should at this point.
I have a town read on Eevee, so won't be voting there.
EFHW I'm still null on. I not as convinced as Ash that it was a scum slip, but it could be. And that's really all I have on EFHW. And she's not a lurker.
I really am torn between the two of them. I know I said I would choose Ahoppy earlier, but I have a serious reservation, and I don't have one about EFHW. On the surface, I agree that Ahoppy has been lurking more and has not been scumhunting much. Basically, I have reasons to lynch ahoppy and a decent reason to not lynch ahoppy, but not much on EFHW at all, so I'm unsure of what to do.
I think the tie-breaker is going to have to be that I have the same feeling here that I had about EFHW in Shakespeare: No clue. In Shakespeare it turned out she was scum. I'm going to hope the same is true here if we end up on this lynch.
Vote: EFHW
So all you have is that you have a null read, I'm towny like I was in Shakespeare, and Ashersky thinks I made a scumslip. I knew I could expect to get increased mistrust after Shakespeare, but even so I don't think town!you would vote based on this, and given the interactions between you and Eevee, and your crusade against xeiron, I'd venture to say you and Eevee may be partners.
This is an aside with no scientific basis whatsoever, but my subjective impression is that posts starting with "Ugh" or "Argh" tend to be by scum. Has anyone else observed that? Also purely subjective, the first paragraph of nkirbit's post reads scummy to me.
One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
Does fit with Pirates, though!
Argh, generalizations are bad matey!
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But I have a townread on Eevee and a serious reservation about lynching Ahoppy, so you're what's left by process of elimination. It's an extremely weak case, I know.
Can you elaborate on the reasons for your townread on Eevee?
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One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
I'm going to disagree with this. There WERE suspicions towards EFHW. I didn't have them, but I don't have them now, so that's not a concern. But Day1, TA was very uneasy with how EFHW sheeped his case on me without appearing to understand what the case was. In his twilight, or just before his death, Lio had EFHW and Sudgy as his top scumreads. So there were certainly suspicions early, but they were just never acted on. Had there been a player like Ash to tunnel EFHW in that game, we could have easily lynched EFHW. I think the difference in suspicions is due to the circumstances surrounding EFHW, not EFHW herself, so I don't buy it as a reason EFHW "couldn't be scum."
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Argh, generalizations are bad matey!
Yeah, that's what I always say when I hear them too.
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But I have a townread on Eevee and a serious reservation about lynching Ahoppy, so you're what's left by process of elimination. It's an extremely weak case, I know.
Can you elaborate on the reasons for your townread on Eevee?
It's an impression. I've gotten the feeling that he's been open to all cases and has put in effort to seeing both sides of all coins. He's listened to other player's reads, has put opinions out there, I know what he thinks on a number of issues. He's created a noticeable impression in my mind as him driving discussion forward but not attempting to control it. It's pretty much identical to the townread I have on TA... I just feel like he's been acting in a pro-town way, and have no reasons to think he's not town.
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You can contrast that read with my read on Ashersky.. I felt that in certain situations, Ash failed to consider issues in ways that I felt would have been consistent with the rest of his play. I don't have that issue with Eevee.
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Not at all sure. I'm making a couple of assumptions. I'm assuming that I'm correctly gaining the info I'm gaining from his post, and assuming that the info makes him town. Both assumptions are over 50% by a good deal, but put them together and it's far away from a slam dunk, but still somewhat significant.
I have a towny read on Nkirbit, and this is giving me pause about voting Ahoppy. I still don't want to vote EFHW, since I don't see the case there, and a lot of my scumread on her was tied into Spiritbears, who has since flipped town.
I think most of the case on Ahoppy is he's a lurker and not scum hunting, correct? That's how he played in Mean Girls. The stuff he did previously when I voted was certainly fishy, but it's true that he jumped on Eevee, and not EFHW, when EFHW had the most votes.
That said,
Vote: Eevee
My re-read of Spiritbears gave Eevee a few more scum points, and I think I'm more comfortable voting him rather than Ahoppy. I've been pretty good at reading Eevee, and I should trust my read on this.
Here's the main things I have problems with on Eevee. Rather than one big thing, it's a lot of little things, but it's the best case we have at this point.
His flip-flop on spiritbears is the biggest. Ash correctly pointed out that Eevee originally put himself in a position to gain when Spiritbears flipped town.
His reaction to Nkirbit's reads struck me as really strange. For a read list that was so similar to mine, Eevee had completely different reactions to my list and Nkirbit's list, when the only significant difference was mail-mi's placement.
His proclaiming of "this is my meta!" was strange, and I read it as manipulation. Also, the buddying of Nkirbit may be an attempt to play with his meta, as well.
I dont' feel as strongly about this as I did about Spiritbears, or even about Xeiron, but I like this lynch better than Ahoppy after Nkirbit's most recent post, and I definitely like it better than an EFHW lynch (who I don't see the case on).
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I had originally wanted to lynch background, but out of the background players (Ahoppy, Chairs, Xeiron, Theorel, and I'd say Shraeye even) I think Xeiron and Chairs are town, I don't really think Ahoppy is the most likely to flip town, I still don't know how to read Theorel, and I have a small town read on Shraeye (although I can't even remember why, I don't remember anything he's done in FOREVER). I think Eevee just has a better chance of flipping scum -- and we should be lynching scummy players, regardless of foreground / background.
Raerae, Shraeye, what's the case on Ahoppy other than he's lurking and not scumhunting?
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EFHW, I agree that lynching you based on a feeling of "We didn't think she was scum before, either" is silly. That said, I don't think "argh" or "ugh" indicate alignment at all.
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EFHW, I agree that lynching you based on a feeling of "We didn't think she was scum before, either" is silly. That said, I don't think "argh" or "ugh" indicate alignment at all.
It is silly. But not as silly as everyone believing Xeiron.
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EFHW, I agree that lynching you based on a feeling of "We didn't think she was scum before, either" is silly. That said, I don't think "argh" or "ugh" indicate alignment at all.
It is silly. But not as silly as everyone believing Xeiron.
I think he's just really mistaken but I buy that he's town. I honestly don't expect his plan to amount to much, though.
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The fact that Xeiron is trying to get us off of a lynch and towards a no lynch indicates to me that we're on the correct track, or close to the correct track. I have serious reservations on Ahoppy for a specific reason, so he's the one out of the three I'm least likely to vote. I'm going to go back and re-examine EFHW and Eevee. EFHW is correct that I don't have a good reason to vote for her. I'm going to go re-read Ash's case, and see if anything new pops out. I'm going to examine my views on Eevee starting with the points that TA pointed out. Does anyone else have anything in particular they think is a good point on the possibility of Eevee being scum?
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I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing. However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose. I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.
I think most of the case on Ahoppy is he's a lurker and not scum hunting, correct? That's how he played in Mean Girls. The stuff he did previously when I voted was certainly fishy, but it's true that he jumped on Eevee, and not EFHW, when EFHW had the most votes.
It's not just that he's being quiet and backgroundy. I think that is a large strike against him. But also, when you review his posts, he spent the early part of today talking about theory while there was plenty of scumhunting going on to talk about. After many posts about items/no-lynch, AHoppy posts this:
I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
saying we should focus more on scumhunting.
His next 3 posts are all about items and theory, and the third finishes with this
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
His next post (#284) is really the first that he tries to do anything in the way of scumhunting. And all he does is call out lurkers; also misremembering who was fightign with Twisted at that point (it was me, but he said raerae). He really isn't focused on any arguments, or any scumhunting at this point. Finally he starts coming in with some reads about people starting from #554, but since then he's only had 15 posts.
The second point against AHoppy, is that in addition to being relatively absent, he continually pops up when his name is mentioned. raerae had a post about this earlier. In addition, Ahoppy comes back after a large break apologizing for being absent, and it comes within half-hour of me voting for him, and also Eevee noting that nobody has noticed AHoppy in ages. His last post before then was more than 2 days ago. Vacations are vacations, I understand. But as newer scum confused in a game with some pretty loud voices, there is a lot of incentive to stretch those absences until he gets nervous by many people mentioning his name.
Here is raerae's post to this effect.
shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory. EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post. (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Then nothing for a bit but this...
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.
Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy.
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Seriously, AHoppy is a good lynch, I don't see why people are dismissing it so quick.
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Seriously, AHoppy is a good lynch, I don't see why people are dismissing it so quick.
I am dismissing it because I have reason to believe he leaked information that would more likely come from a town member than a mafia member. If he were to claim at some point, depending on what he claimed, I would immediately support the lynch or say why I'm strongly opposed to it. But until then, my best action is to oppose it, I believe.
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Reasons for voting EFHW:
1) I have the same general feeling about EFHW in this game I had in Shakespeare, where she turned out to be scum. This is hard to quantify, since it's a feeling.
Reasons to not vote EFHW:
1) Ash is tunneling this case hard, and I have somewhat of a scum read on Ash.
So all in all, not strong reasons on either side (I don't buy the "scumslip"), but that doesn't mean I should vote for EFHW.
Reasons for voting Eevee:
1) Does have a history of flipping reads in relatively short time periods. Spiritbears and Mail-mi were the two biggest to stand out for me.
2) I have a general feeling that Eevee is town, which is the same feeling I had in mean girls.
Reasons for not voting Eevee:
1) I have a general feeling that Eevee is town.
So I have the same feelings about two different players that I had in others games, and both of them were scum in that game. I think if my only basis for voting EFHW is the similarity of the read, I should vote Eevee instead, as I'm more convinced by points others have brought up and don't trust the player driving EFHW's wagon the hardest.
Vote: Eevee
(Another suspicious thing Xeiron did, while I'm here: As soon as I asked him for some names, he immediately threw out four names! That's a lot! But when TA and I asked him why he had those names, he disappeared!)
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Why only call her out on AHoppy and not shraeye too? She did a complete 180 on him but actually made a decision on AHoppy rather than leaving him at null.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Why only call her out on AHoppy and not shraeye too? She did a complete 180 on him but actually made a decision on AHoppy rather than leaving him at null.
It's just what stood out to me upon reading her posts. Did she ever answer why she changed her views on Shraeye? If she did, that could be a reason why I didn't ask about it.
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So basically Nkirbit, you're voting Eevee for flipping his reads, particularly on SB and mail-mi?
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Argh, generalizations are bad matey!
Yeah, that's what I always say when I hear them too.
;D Exactly, dahling.
I'm intrigued at where we're at. I think I'm ready to cast my vote, but just in case...
Official vote count, please.
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I'm flipping between EFHW and Eevee because I really have no clue. I really don't.
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Eevee is at L-2, I believe.
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Why no AHoppy?
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OK, kermit is trying to detract from AHoppy's case by voting for...who? EFHW or Eevee, he keeps flipping and flopping between the two. He notes EFHW natural switch from null to scummy but completely missed her turn-around on shraeye. He's doing everything he can to get anybody BUT AHoppy lynched.
Vote: AHoppy again, but would consider a kermit vote if it gained traction.
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Seriously, AHoppy is a good lynch, I don't see why people are dismissing it so quick.
I am dismissing it because I have reason to believe he leaked information that would more likely come from a town member than a mafia member. If he were to claim at some point, depending on what he claimed, I would immediately support the lynch or say why I'm strongly opposed to it. But until then, my best action is to oppose it, I believe.
This is why. I am having second thoughts about this though:
The information that I believe he possesses is information I think is likelier for a town to have than scum. But if scum had the info, they would have shared it N0, so I'm not quite sure if town is likelier to have it than 3 scum players.
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OK, kermit is trying to detract from AHoppy's case by voting for...who? EFHW or Eevee, he keeps flipping and flopping between the two. He notes EFHW's natural switch from null to scummy (on AHoppy) but completely missed her turn-around on shraeye. He's doing everything he can to get anybody BUT AHoppy lynched.
Vote: AHoppy again, but would consider a kermit vote if it gained traction.
Bold part added because I can't think in thoughts.
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OK, kermit is trying to detract from AHoppy's case by voting for...who? EFHW or Eevee, he keeps flipping and flopping between the two. He notes EFHW natural switch from null to scummy but completely missed her turn-around on shraeye. He's doing everything he can to get anybody BUT AHoppy lynched.
Vote: AHoppy again, but would consider a kermit vote if it gained traction.
Raerae: If you want, I can say specifically why I am having doubts about Ahoppy. But I don't think you want that.
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The information that I believe he possesses is information I think is likelier for a town to have than scum. But if scum had the info, they would have shared it N0, so I'm not quite sure if town is likelier to have it than 3 scum players.
What. Those two sentences say directly contradictory things. You think town is likelier to have it according to #1. But in #2, you say taht you are not sure if town is likelier to have it than a scumteam.
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Shraeye, two reasons why I'm hesitant and why I prefer Eevee:
1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
2) I just think this might be how Ahoppy plays, and that he's not all that used to scumhunting, and goes off of stuff other people generate. That's just a different way of playing, and not necessarily scummy.
The idea of lynching lurkers is that they're scared and they stay back and are afraid to post normally, right? Well, if the person posts the same amount and hunts the same amount as they did when they were town, this argument loses traction.
Don't get me wrong, he's definitely not the worst lynch, and I'm slight scum on him (although less so after nkirbit's info), but I think Eevee is more likely to flip scum.
I'd still lynch Ahoppy over EFHW, though.
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OK, kermit is trying to detract from AHoppy's case by voting for...who? EFHW or Eevee, he keeps flipping and flopping between the two. He notes EFHW natural switch from null to scummy but completely missed her turn-around on shraeye. He's doing everything he can to get anybody BUT AHoppy lynched.
Vote: AHoppy again, but would consider a kermit vote if it gained traction.
Raerae: If you want, I can say specifically why I am having doubts about Ahoppy. But I don't think you want that.
Don't you dare claim. Don't you dare.
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Nkirbit,
Ahoppy's leaked information came out ages ago. Why have you only professed having a town read on him due to it now?
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1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
Why do you have a townread on nkirbit. And what do you think about nkirbit's last post that really calls into question the validity of his townread on AHoppy?
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The information that I believe he possesses is information I think is likelier for a town to have than scum. But if scum had the info, they would have shared it N0, so I'm not quite sure if town is likelier to have it than 3 scum players.
What. Those two sentences say directly contradictory things. You think town is likelier to have it according to #1. But in #2, you say taht you are not sure if town is likelier to have it than a scumteam.
Previously, I had said that any one town member is likelier to have the info than any one scum member, and that's true. But the thing I hadn't considered previously is that scum will be sharing their info N0.... so I am unsure upon considering that whether having that info would likelier indicate town or scum.
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Previously, I had said that any one town member is likelier to have the info than any one scum member, and that's true. But the thing I hadn't considered previously is that scum will be sharing their info N0.... so I am unsure upon considering that whether having that info would likelier indicate town or scum.
What. So now your AHoppy townread is based on old thought processes that you yourself are reconsidering, yet you aren't changing your AHoppy read?
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Nkirbit,
Ahoppy's leaked information came out ages ago. Why have you only professed having a town read on him due to it now?
Looking back, you posted your reads list AFTER Ahoppy's leaked info, and still had him as slight scum.
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Nkirbit,
Ahoppy's leaked information came out ages ago. Why have you only professed having a town read on him due to it now?
I didn't think about it until recently. I mean, I thought about it at the time, but came back to it later when Ahoppy was looking like a viable lynch and reconsidered my conclusions.
I can go ahead and say what I know, if you'd like. It's only guesses about Ahoppy.. nothing I claim will for sure reveal anything about any of his roles.
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Previously, I had said that any one town member is likelier to have the info than any one scum member, and that's true. But the thing I hadn't considered previously is that scum will be sharing their info N0.... so I am unsure upon considering that whether having that info would likelier indicate town or scum.
What. So now your AHoppy townread is based on old thought processes that you yourself are reconsidering, yet you aren't changing your AHoppy read?
I am thinking through my Ahoppy read at this point. I had him as scum originally, thought through my info again, thought it was towny, and am continuing to think it through as we speak. It's only been a few hours since I came up with the town read, and you questioning it is making me rethink it. I am not sure about any of this.. it is merely speculation.
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Nkirbit,
Ahoppy's leaked information came out ages ago. Why have you only professed having a town read on him due to it now?
I didn't think about it until recently. I mean, I thought about it at the time, but came back to it later when Ahoppy was looking like a viable lynch and reconsidered my conclusions.
I can go ahead and say what I know, if you'd like. It's only guesses about Ahoppy.. nothing I claim will for sure reveal anything about any of his roles.
No, absolutely don't. He's not close to a lynch yet, and even if he gets to L-1 it may not be worth it even then. But for now, 100% absolutely no.
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1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
Why do you have a townread on nkirbit. And what do you think about nkirbit's last post that really calls into question the validity of his townread on AHoppy?
While I disagree with Nkirbit on Xeiron, I think his views there are very logical, straightforward, and genuine, is the biggest thing. I had trouble reading him early when he was mostly doing catchup posts but now that he's been active he seems to be genuinely trying to scumhunt, and I've agreed with a lot of his logic (mostly on Xeiron, once again)
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1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
Why do you have a townread on nkirbit. And what do you think about nkirbit's last post that really calls into question the validity of his townread on AHoppy?
Don't understand it TBH.
Nkirbit can you clarify this?
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Vote Count 1.13
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (5) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher, nkirbit
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) chairs
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch; 6 to no-lynch
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
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Okay, I have a question.
When someone gets to L-1, are we going to allow them to claim, or lynch them before they have a chance to do so?
If we put Ahoppy to L-1 and he claims, I am going to come out and support his claim if it meets what I expect his claim to be, and lynch him if his claim does not meet what I expect his claim to be. But I agree that claiming is bad, so would rather not put a player at L-1 that I think is likeliest to be backed off of, who I believe to be Ahoppy.
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If you're never going to go through with his lynch then why even consider voting for him, kermit? Just to appease a couple people who don't even constitute the masses right now? Interesting...
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I would go through with his lynch if his claim didn't match up with what I expected it to. But I think it will, and that's why I'm not voting for him.
I'm considering it because I have three people telling me I should consider it. I still think it's wrong, and that's why I'm not voting for Ahoppy, but I don't think it's wrong for me to consider it.
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Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming? A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...
Every time...except when X claimed. No anger, no vote, nothing. Odd. If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
That's L-1.
Going on record that I think this is a mistake for D1 resulting from pressure to end the day. I see this lynch as a direct action of theorel.
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My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum.
So we know that Xeiron hasn't yet caught scum, because he would have claimed it, since that's generally his belief, right?
But he is still not worried about sending a message to scum? How does he know who scum is, if he hasn't caught them yet?
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My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum.
So we know that Xeiron hasn't yet caught scum, because he would have claimed it, since that's generally his belief, right?
But he is still not worried about sending a message to scum? How does he know who scum is, if he hasn't caught them yet?
If I had caught scum already I would either have claimed or pushed their lynch in any other way.
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My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum.
So we know that Xeiron hasn't yet caught scum, because he would have claimed it, since that's generally his belief, right?
But he is still not worried about sending a message to scum? How does he know who scum is, if he hasn't caught them yet?
If I had caught scum already I would either have claimed or pushed their lynch in any other way.
So you're here! Why haven't you said why myself, Shraeye, Ahoppy, or TA (I believe those were the four you listed) were scummy?
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Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming? A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...
Every time...except when X claimed. No anger, no vote, nothing. Odd. If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
Because I was gone, Ash. And my vote was already on him. And it's the same damn thing he did in RMM7 (which I pointed out and he hasn't addressed yet). By the time I got here it was too late to do a damn thing about it. Besides, all this yelling that claiming is a bad idea hasn't stopped half this town from being fools and doing it anyway.
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
What deadline? Nobody has set one yet. Why is Eevee the best choice?
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
Why Eevee? I want to hear in your words the case on him.
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This is a convenience lynch. Half the people on this wagon are voting because they "don't like" the other options, not because they think Eevee is scum. We still have plenty of time. If you don't like the options then present a new one.
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Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
What deadline? Nobody has set one yet. Why is Eevee the best choice?
I thought we'd set (and missed) one soft deadline already? I'll happily admit to being wrong, if that's the case. As far as why Eevee is the best choice, I'll attempt to address that in roughly an hour, when I get home.
This is a convenience lynch. Half the people on this wagon are voting because they "don't like" the other options, not because they think Eevee is scum. We still have plenty of time. If you don't like the options then present a new one.
If we still have plenty of time, then nobody minds if I unvote until I can get home and make (or break) my case in more detail, right? I could've sworn we were butting up against time and that's why we were all choosing horrible lynch options (since no good option existed and we were out of time).
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I'm going to examine my views on Eevee starting with the points that TA pointed out. Does anyone else have anything in particular they think is a good point on the possibility of Eevee being scum?
Nkirbit, you asked this question, and in between this and your vote on Eevee, accompanied by the quote shown below, nobody answered that question. In the last few pages, I don't see anybody's case on Eevee, so this feels a lot like "wagon of least resistance" instead of "wagon that has best chance of hitting scum".
My question is, what did you discover that tipped you towards Eevee? Anything more specific that this post below?
Reasons for voting Eevee:
1) Does have a history of flipping reads in relatively short time periods. Spiritbears and Mail-mi were the two biggest to stand out for me.
2) I have a general feeling that Eevee is town, which is the same feeling I had in mean girls.
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This is a convenience lynch. Half the people on this wagon are voting because they "don't like" the other options, not because they think Eevee is scum. We still have plenty of time. If you don't like the options then present a new one.
I agree 100% with this. But everyone knows who my alternative lynch is, and no one agrees with me, so I don't know what else to do.
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Chairs & TA, you asked for this and NEVER commented on it. Why is this not convincing enough for you?
I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing. However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose. I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.
I think most of the case on Ahoppy is he's a lurker and not scum hunting, correct? That's how he played in Mean Girls. The stuff he did previously when I voted was certainly fishy, but it's true that he jumped on Eevee, and not EFHW, when EFHW had the most votes.
It's not just that he's being quiet and backgroundy. I think that is a large strike against him. But also, when you review his posts, he spent the early part of today talking about theory while there was plenty of scumhunting going on to talk about. After many posts about items/no-lynch, AHoppy posts this:
I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
saying we should focus more on scumhunting.
His next 3 posts are all about items and theory, and the third finishes with this
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
His next post (#284) is really the first that he tries to do anything in the way of scumhunting. And all he does is call out lurkers; also misremembering who was fightign with Twisted at that point (it was me, but he said raerae). He really isn't focused on any arguments, or any scumhunting at this point. Finally he starts coming in with some reads about people starting from #554, but since then he's only had 15 posts.
The second point against AHoppy, is that in addition to being relatively absent, he continually pops up when his name is mentioned. raerae had a post about this earlier. In addition, Ahoppy comes back after a large break apologizing for being absent, and it comes within half-hour of me voting for him, and also Eevee noting that nobody has noticed AHoppy in ages. His last post before then was more than 2 days ago. Vacations are vacations, I understand. But as newer scum confused in a game with some pretty loud voices, there is a lot of incentive to stretch those absences until he gets nervous by many people mentioning his name.
Here is raerae's post to this effect.
shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory. EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post. (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Then nothing for a bit but this...
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.
Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy.
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This is a convenience lynch. Half the people on this wagon are voting because they "don't like" the other options, not because they think Eevee is scum. We still have plenty of time. If you don't like the options then present a new one.
I agree 100% with this. But everyone knows who my alternative lynch is, and no one agrees with me, so I don't know what else to do.
So look at the other options. There is more than one scum in this game. Expand your horizons and work toward a town win.
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Shraeye, two reasons why I'm hesitant and why I prefer Eevee:
1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
2) I just think this might be how Ahoppy plays, and that he's not all that used to scumhunting, and goes off of stuff other people generate. That's just a different way of playing, and not necessarily scummy.
The idea of lynching lurkers is that they're scared and they stay back and are afraid to post normally, right? Well, if the person posts the same amount and hunts the same amount as they did when they were town, this argument loses traction.
Don't get me wrong, he's definitely not the worst lynch, and I'm slight scum on him (although less so after nkirbit's info), but I think Eevee is more likely to flip scum.
I'd still lynch Ahoppy over EFHW, though.
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EFHW, I agree that lynching you based on a feeling of "We didn't think she was scum before, either" is silly. That said, I don't think "argh" or "ugh" indicate alignment at all.
Yeah, if only it was that easy!
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My question is, what did you discover that tipped you towards Eevee? Anything more specific that this post below?
No. I feel bad about this vote, but won't feel any better on EFHW, so I'd rather just get to day2. If people show any interest at all in lynching Xeiron, I would jump there in an instant. But I've pushed and pushed and pushed and no one is buying my case.
My reason for voting Eevee is extremely weak. I'm choosing between the three wagons here. I don't want to pursue Ahoppy for the reason we've been discussing. I don't have good reasons to support EFHW or Eevee. Both are similar to games in which they were scum (mean girls for eevee and shakespeare for efhw). I have a scummy read on Ash, so I'm uncomfortable with a player he's tunneling. Eevee does have minor issues, but they're minor.
I really want to lynch Xeiron, but I don't see that happening. Honestly, I don't have much of a preference between EFHW and Eevee.
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This is a convenience lynch. Half the people on this wagon are voting because they "don't like" the other options, not because they think Eevee is scum. We still have plenty of time. If you don't like the options then present a new one.
I agree 100% with this. But everyone knows who my alternative lynch is, and no one agrees with me, so I don't know what else to do.
So look at the other options. There is more than one scum in this game. Expand your horizons and work toward a town win.
I know. I know. I've spent so much time tunneling on Xeiron, that even if I'm correct, I should start looking elsewhere. But I'm very unhappy with all 3 of the wagons.. I have re-read all three players and don't want to vote any of them. Yet I feel pressure to vote here.
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
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I'm unsure how to start looking at it. I'm so convinced that Xeiron is scum, that it's hard for me to build a case keeping that out. Any case I see is going to start with "Does it make sense for this player to be scum partners with Xeiron?" And while I might get somewhere, I think that any case I build this way is just going to be worse than a Xeiron lynch.
If I assume that Xeiron isn't scum, I'm not going to get a result I'm happy with, because I'm so sure of Xeiron being scum. Anything that I get, I'm going to say "Does it make sense for this player to be partners with Xeiron? And if the answer is no, then I'm not going to be happy about it, either.
Perhaps I'm wrong on Xeiron. I don't think I am, though. Unvote, though. I am unhappy about this lynch, and want to at least start looking elsewhere.
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Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming? A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...
Every time...except when X claimed. No anger, no vote, nothing. Odd. If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
you are here! Don't you think raerae would be extra sure to protest if her partner seemed to be doing claiming?
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Vote Count 1.14
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (4) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (2) nkirbit, chairs
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
What are you referring to?
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I think x is a better lynch than eevee even considering I think x is likely bad town here.
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
What are you referring to?
That you're unhappy about the lynches.
I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..
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Anyone notice raerae's visceral reactions against claiming? A lot of don't you dare and policy votes...
Every time...except when X claimed. No anger, no vote, nothing. Odd. If X is scum, so is raerae, I think.
you are here! Don't you think raerae would be extra sure to protest if her partner seemed to be doing claiming?
Not really here. On a phone.
I think x sheep on raerae early was indicative of a tie. Like a bus if x was afraid I had caught his partner somehow N0.
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So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?
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So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?
No. Why do you take everything I say and interpret it in the most negative light? You've been doing that to me all game, and haven't been doing it near as much to everything else.
I'm believing a townread when he says that given what he knows, and what Ahoppy leaked, that he has good reason to believe that his information most likely comes from town.
I think that's much, much different than sheeping a read.
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
What are you referring to?
That you're unhappy about the lynches.
I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..
Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny. I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.
I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them. If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
What are you referring to?
That you're unhappy about the lynches.
I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..
Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny. I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.
I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them. If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.
But if you're not happy with any of the 3, and X isn't gonna happen, why haven't you found anyone else?
Who's your next candidate after X, if we could lynch anyone?
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I did say earlier that Xeiron saying he thought all 3 of these were towny made me think that there was a scum here. I don't know what I think about this. I'm sure of one thing in this game, and unsure of many other things.
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That's not the impression I was getting before, nkirbit. Why are you only saying this now?
What are you referring to?
That you're unhappy about the lynches.
I know you haven't been sold on them. But the impression that I'm getting now is that you quite possibly think all 3 is towny. You've only said this when called on your vote..
Of course I think possibly all 3 are towny. I have no clue whether this is true or not, but it's possible.
I think the general waffling I've been doing is pretty consistent about me being happy with none of them. If I was happy with one of them, I would have gone on there and stuck there.
But if you're not happy with any of the 3, and X isn't gonna happen, why haven't you found anyone else?
Who's your next candidate after X, if we could lynch anyone?
Mail-Mi, probably.
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I also have a scumread on Ashersky because I think he is possibly scum buddies with Xeiron should he turn out to be scum. But if I couldn't get Xeiron through, I obviously can't get that case through.
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So you're sheeping a townread's read on somebody instead of forming your own opinion?
No. Why do you take everything I say and interpret it in the most negative light? You've been doing that to me all game, and haven't been doing it near as much to everything else.
I'm believing a townread when he says that given what he knows, and what Ahoppy leaked, that he has good reason to believe that his information most likely comes from town.
I think that's much, much different than sheeping a read.
I really don't see the difference. I'm sorry if you feel that paints you negatively but you're believing somebody based solely on your read on them...sheeping.
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The case on Eevee - First of all, the thing that set me in that direction, look at the wagon on me. mail-mi and Eevee. The wagon is only there because Ash got a mania against me, mail-mi sheeped and Eevee voted too. mail-mi has sheeped Ash before, and his presence there is scummy. But Eevee is usually much more considered in his voting. Remember when he hesitated to vote for me in Shakespeare even when I was caught in the act?
Because there is that wagon now, each of you not voting for me had to think it through whether to join or not. Take a moment and reflect on the thought processes which led you to decide not to vote for me. Maybe I'm not shining crystal clear town to you, but there isn't really a case either. Now imagine town!Eevee doing the same process. Would he be on the wagon?
Ash did gambits before trying to flush out scum. This time he really meant it, and Eevee felt safe to join.
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I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between
A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny
One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.
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I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between
A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny
One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.
This is an exaggeration. I'm not at all 90% sure that Ahoppy is towny. I believe I said over 50%. I'm not nearly that sure of it. Just sure enough that it's unattractive as a day 1 lynch.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Why only call her out on AHoppy and not shraeye too? She did a complete 180 on him but actually made a decision on AHoppy rather than leaving him at null.
Are you questioning my changing on shraeye - which I already answered -- or the fact that nkirbit didn't ask me about changing re: shraeye but did re: Ahoppy? What does nkirbit's not asking about my shift on shraeye say to you about him?
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I'm using what Nkirbit believes to be fact, not opinion. I think that's a pretty significant difference. It's not foolproof, of course, but I think there's a difference between
A) Nkirbit: I read Ahoppy, I'm like 90% sure he's towny based on a read
B) Nkirbit: I have some information that makes me 90% sure he's towny
One of these holds a LOT more water to me than the other does.
This is an exaggeration. I'm not at all 90% sure that Ahoppy is towny. I believe I said over 50%. I'm not nearly that sure of it. Just sure enough that it's unattractive as a day 1 lynch.
I know, I just picked a number
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posts are coming fast and furious. I'm going to try to assemble some Eevee quotes, so my responses may be a bit delayed.
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I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
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My take on this sequence of posts is that Eevee is maneuvering himself into a position in which he can agree with Ashersky and vote me. For context, I’ll include some of the conversation between myself and Ashersky. If he thinks I’ve edited excessively, I can do more. As it is I apologize for the length. I prefer briefer posts.
Ashersky, so far your evidence against me is a "slip" no one else sees as a slip, a misunderstanding re: no lynch you yourself have acknowledged, misattributing to me something raerae said, and my willingness to give xeiron a chance to try his plan tonight (I don't agree with Day 2 no lynch). Am I missing something?
Before Ash answers, Eevee says Ash’s case makes him suspect Ash more than me.
I don't think EHFW couldn't be scum. But pretty much same can be said for ash, and his certainty is worrisome..
Ashersky replies to me with the elements of his case. I won’t comment on his case here.
I think the slip was a slip, even if others don't. I think you've misrepresented things multiple times. I think you've shown you have more set up info than the rest of us. I think your reaction to Xeiron's claim/plan was scummy.
I do think your stance on no lynch is bad and your willingness to go along with X is bad.
I acknowledged that it was possible your no lynch comment, which I saw as contradictory, could have referenced something else. That could have been your excuse to cover for it, too. It isn't conclusive evidence, though.
The raerae scummy statement attributed to you I will own up to. I think it was a scummy misrepresentation of TA's statement; raerae stands behind it. That's fine. I found it scummy.
Here Eevee says he has a reputation of opposing Day 1 lynches. I’m taking him to mean that he is cautious, but he can correct me if I’m wrong. He says he is uncomfortable with both me and Ash and knows I could be like I am being as scum.
Double negatives, how do they work.
Well, I have bit of a reputation to be against day 1 lynches. I like to think I've been correct with a good record too. In this game, I take that stance against the xeiron lynch - I will actively try to make it not happen.
I don't feel that way about EHFW. Ashersky is pushing it with too much certainty and it worries me, but EHFW answers are not convincing to me. I always try to think "could he be like that under pressure as scum", and I think EHFW could be.
Ash argues his own towniness
Compare how I'm pushing the EFHW case compared to how I pushed cases as scum. If I am scum forcing an EFHW mislynch, I'm being pretty stupid about it. What do I gain as scum from it? Why EFHW over anyone else?
Am I sure she's scum? As close to sure as you get on D1. Best case I've seen all day.
Eevee says he isn’t convinced but says he’s agreeing about me anyway.
Well, it's a pretty clever scum play if you think you can explain it as obvtown play, isn't it? You did a lot of things in mean girls I'd never expect scum to do.
But, as I said, I'm leaning towards agreeing with you, partially for the reason you stated.
Next post, he votes because he wants to get the day over with. Does this sound like cautious Eevee? In fact, in the interest of not dragging this day out longer than necessary and generally lynching over not lynching, I will Vote: EHFW. Fwiw I'm surprised no one seems to be noticing ahoppy at all.
Later he answers my question about which of Ash’s reasons he agrees with. He cites Ash’s argument about his own towniness. In the earlier post he was voting me despite his doubts about Ash. Now his trust in ash is why he is voting. He doesn’t state a position on any part of ashersky’s case against me.
It's not exactly the scum play I'd expect the most - picking a super aggressive townie who is better than average at defending herself and just relentlessly tunneling her when the alternative is a long, dragged out day 1 that isn't leading us any closer to a lynch.
It's like, ash said he thinks this day is getting too long, and now he is acting on it. The overcertainty makes sense for town ash.
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I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread? I feel like I have my hands full as it is.
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I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread? I feel like I have my hands full as it is.
#1252 (wow)
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I have made a count of all the votes cast during D1. RVS are excluded.
Cumulative Vote Count D1
key:
Player voted for(accumulated unique votes/accumulated votes) - Voting player1(vote nr.), Voting player2(vote nr.), etc
Ashersky (1/1) - mail-mi(7&10)
Eevee (8/10) - mail-mi(6), aHoppy(8 ), Ashersky(15), Mail-mi(16), EFHW(35), aHoppy(38), Theorel(39), Twistedarcher(42), Nkirbit(43), Chairs(45)
Xeiron (5/6) - Raerae(5), Shraeye(19), mail-mi(21), NKirbit(25), raerae(27), Theorel(29)
Raerae(2/2) - Ashersky(1), Xeiron(4)
Mail-mi(1/2) - Ashersky(13), Ashersky(17)
Twistedarcher(3/3) - Nkirbit(19), Chairs(22), Eevee(24)
Chairs(1/1) - raerae(12)
Shraeye(4/4) - TA(2), Chairs(3), EFHW(9), Theorel(18)
Ahoppy(4/5) - eevee(32), shraeye(36), raerae(37), Twistedarcher(40), Raerae(44)
EFHW(5/5) - Shraeye(11), Ashersky(26), mail-mi(33), eevee(34), nkirbit(41)
Spiritbears(2/2) - TwistedArcher(14&28), Nkirbit(20)
No-lynch(2/2) - Xeiron(28), EFHW(30)
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Eevee's had TEN people vote for him this game??
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Okay I should read fully then post. Eight people. But still.
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Oh my oh my. I don't see any reason to change my votes, raerae looks townier for slowing my wagon down a bit, because it's likely that at least one of the viable or semi-viable candidates is scum.
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I just finished re-reading EFHW, and I really just have an exceptionally hard time reading her. The oddest thing for me is saying that she has a null-read on Ahoppy #1194, but her last post about Ahoppy was in #651 where she describes him as scummy. Why the change?
Why only call her out on AHoppy and not shraeye too? She did a complete 180 on him but actually made a decision on AHoppy rather than leaving him at null.
Are you questioning my changing on shraeye - which I already answered -- or the fact that nkirbit didn't ask me about changing re: shraeye but did re: Ahoppy? What does nkirbit's not asking about my shift on shraeye say to you about him?
I'm concerned that he was only concerned about your (as I see it) logical read change from null to scum on AHoppy and not concerned about you ultra read switch on shraeye. (Your answer wasn't great by the way but not scummy so that was why I didn't keep pushing it.) He called you on a reasonable switch and that was what I was questioning him on.
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I'm not sure what to make of the fact that 8 separate people have voted Eevee at some point today.
On the one hand, it could simply mean that he's simply town, and scum have jumped on his wagon, seeing it as the one that would be the easiest to push through.
On the other hand, it could mean he's scum, and scum members who were bussing / voting him earlier got off once they saw there was risk of Eevee being actually lynched. They wanted to have pressure on him, which looks great, as long as he wasn't lynched, but if there's pressure, they needed to get off so they didn't lose a teammate day 1.
If Eevee flips scum, I'd be most suspicious of Ashersky and mail-mi as partners.
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I have made a count of all the votes cast during D1. RVS are excluded.
Cumulative Vote Count D1
key:
Player voted for(accumulated unique votes/accumulated votes) - Voting player1(vote nr.), Voting player2(vote nr.), etc
Ashersky (1/1) - mail-mi(7&10)
Eevee (8/10) - mail-mi(6), aHoppy(8 ), Ashersky(15), Mail-mi(16), EFHW(35), aHoppy(38), Theorel(39), Twistedarcher(42), Nkirbit(43), Chairs(45)
Xeiron (5/6) - Raerae(5), Shraeye(19), mail-mi(21), NKirbit(25), raerae(27), Theorel(29)
Raerae(2/2) - Ashersky(1), Xeiron(4)
Mail-mi(1/2) - Ashersky(13), Ashersky(17)
Twistedarcher(3/3) - Nkirbit(19), Chairs(22), Eevee(24)
Chairs(1/1) - raerae(12)
Shraeye(4/4) - TA(2), Chairs(3), EFHW(9), Theorel(18)
Ahoppy(4/5) - eevee(32), shraeye(36), raerae(37), Twistedarcher(40), Raerae(44)
EFHW(5/5) - Shraeye(11), Ashersky(26), mail-mi(33), eevee(34), nkirbit(41)
Spiritbears(2/2) - TwistedArcher(14&28), Nkirbit(20)
No-lynch(2/2) - Xeiron(28), EFHW(30)
What?? I don't understand your #s. I haven't voted 44 times.
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44th vote in the game, it's in chronological order.
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Xeiron, your scum reads, please.
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I have made a count of all the votes cast during D1. RVS are excluded.
Cumulative Vote Count D1
key:
Player voted for(accumulated unique votes/accumulated votes) - Voting player1(vote nr.), Voting player2(vote nr.), etc
Ashersky (1/1) - mail-mi(7&10)
Eevee (8/10) - mail-mi(6), aHoppy(8 ), Ashersky(15), Mail-mi(16), EFHW(35), aHoppy(38), Theorel(39), Twistedarcher(42), Nkirbit(43), Chairs(45)
Xeiron (5/6) - Raerae(5), Shraeye(19), mail-mi(21), NKirbit(25), raerae(27), Theorel(29)
Raerae(2/2) - Ashersky(1), Xeiron(4)
Mail-mi(1/2) - Ashersky(13), Ashersky(17)
Twistedarcher(3/3) - Nkirbit(19), Chairs(22), Eevee(24)
Chairs(1/1) - raerae(12)
Shraeye(4/4) - TA(2), Chairs(3), EFHW(9), Theorel(18)
Ahoppy(4/5) - eevee(32), shraeye(36), raerae(37), Twistedarcher(40), Raerae(44)
EFHW(5/5) - Shraeye(11), Ashersky(26), mail-mi(33), eevee(34), nkirbit(41)
Spiritbears(2/2) - TwistedArcher(14&28), Nkirbit(20)
No-lynch(2/2) - Xeiron(28), EFHW(30)
What?? I don't understand your #s. I haven't voted 44 times.
It means vote number 44 in this game is cast by you.
I started my numbering on Asherskys vote on you. Thats #1. The next vote cast by anyone is #2 and so on.
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Xeiron, your scum reads, please.
working on it.
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Now I want to explain my take on the after-vote period in which Eevee alternates between pushing the case and saying the case is weak. I think these quotes show that while he wants me to be lynched, he has no conviction at all about my being scum (I think because he knows I’m not). Again, sorry about the length. I'm trying to respond to those players requesting more details on the case against Eevee.
Trying to facilitate the lynch: Here shraeye agrees with Eevee about Ahoppy and disagrees about me. As he later did with Theorel, Eevee's response is to immediately express suspicion of shraeye. He then says that shraeye agrees with him. I don't know if it was intentional or not, but this glosses over the actual disagreement that was the bulk of shraeye's post.
@Eevee, I'd still be down for an AHoppy lynch; I still think a backgroundplayer is the best place to lynch today. EFHW's reaction to xeiron's plan is exactly what townies need to be thinking now. Instead of going "oh hey, a plan that somebody claims will work...but I don't understand it...gotta lynch them!" and then complaining when we blew our chances at some serious advantage, I think we should let this play out and see what xeiron can get for us.
nkirbit's reaction to xeiron's plan is by far the scummiest, increasing the fervor with which he's calling for xeiron's head. EFHW's reaction reads completely townie to me.
Vote: AHoppy
I wouldn't be surprised if shraeye was scum btw. Somehow he feels too... friendly?
Maybe I'm just not used to him agreeing with me. :D
Here he pushes his case by describing me as scrambling. He seems convinced I am scum. He’s also allying himself with Ashersky, like “we both know she’s scum, it’s obvious, so tone it down.” Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Lack of conviction: Here Eevee says he is voting me because there is no one else. Then he right away mentions a couple other possible targets.
If there were another compelling case out there, I might be swayed to consider it. But I've yet to see a strong (in the D1 sense of the word) case made on anyone.
Xeiron? Nope. Any of the other foregrounders? Nada. LALL? Not compelling in the face of actual scum cases. So really, what else is there?
This is pretty much how I feel about EFHW too. Well, I'd put Ahoppy and shraeye on top of the "my individual biggest suspects" list.
Around the same time he says Ash is being unfair in turning everything I do into evidence I am scum. After I inquire 2 times, he says he was only referring to ashersky saying I twisted Eevee's words re: shraeye.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.
If you think he is being unfair, why did you vote for me?
I always sound defensive when I'm defending myself. But you jumped on a wagon you agree is unfair, and since then you have been spinning everything I say to sound scummy. This is not your way as town.
I'm not saying the wagon is unfair!!
I'm saying [ashersky] reading you twisting my words earlier as evidence of you being scum is unfair.
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EFHW, I have a huge, huge, huge problem with how you've misrepresented the following quote:
Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.
You used the initial Eevee quote as part of your evidence for "Trying to facilitate the lynch". Saying that Eevee sees you as scrambling, and therefore thinks you're scum.
Yet, for the second part of your argument, "Lack of conviction", you cut out the original quote! There's nowhere that has just those two parts of the quote -- there's a place with all three, but no part with just two.
You're picking and choosing to make your argument here, rather than looking at the quote as a whole. The fact that you used the same quote, all in one quote chain, and used it in two separate parts of your argument to explain how Eevee is doing two different things, is pretty egregious to me.
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I remember asking Eevee this but don't remember the answer, if there was one -- is there any point where Eevee says that EFHW scrambling is a clear sign of her scuminess?
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EFHW, I have a huge, huge, huge problem with how you've misrepresented the following quote:
Ash, you are in hardcore tunnel mode though, and not looking at things objectively. It's clear EFHW is in super scramble mode already, that's just an indication of that.
Wait, I don't understand what you're talking about. Are you saying that EFHW is scum? Or that ashersky is tunnelling too far? Those seem like opposite ideas.
I'm saying that even if EFHW is scum, ashersky is being way unfair to her, just spinning everything she does into evidence of her being scum. Even if she is scum, it's not like her choosing lighthouse as her avatar or her being worried of being todays lynch are indications of that.
You used the initial Eevee quote as part of your evidence for "Trying to facilitate the lynch". Saying that Eevee sees you as scrambling, and therefore thinks you're scum.
Yet, for the second part of your argument, "Lack of conviction", you cut out the original quote! There's nowhere that has just those two parts of the quote -- there's a place with all three, but no part with just two.
You're picking and choosing to make your argument here, rather than looking at the quote as a whole. The fact that you used the same quote, all in one quote chain, and used it in two separate parts of your argument to explain how Eevee is doing two different things, is pretty egregious to me.
Actually, putting them together strengthens my point. It shows advocating and lack of conviction one right after the other. I separated them because I had put the two issues in two different sections.
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Maybe...if you read Eevee's saying that you're scrambling as saying you're scummy. I think that's a stretch, unless he specifically linked the two. From context it's not entirely clear that he's coming out and saying "EFHW is scrambling, therefore she's scummy".
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But really, what's so scummy about saying "This is my strongest read, but I'm not sold on it, but since it's my strongest read we should lynch the person?" Why is this a scum move and not a town move?
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I remember asking Eevee this but don't remember the answer, if there was one -- is there any point where Eevee says that EFHW scrambling is a clear sign of her scuminess?
Here are the references I can find. To my mind, they reinforce my point. ash takes "scramble" as a sign of scumminess, Eevee says maybe not but stays on my wagon. No one actually demonstrates scrambling on my part.
...
I think Eevee's point, that EFHW is now scrambling, is valid. His point that I am now tunneling, is also valid.
I don't know that she wouldn't go to scramble mode as scared town. It really sucks to let your team down by being the day 1 lynch either way.
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But really, what's so scummy about saying "This is my strongest read, but I'm not sold on it, but since it's my strongest read we should lynch the person?" Why is this a scum move and not a town move?
A fair question. He has never said I am his strongest scum read. He has not once expressed agreement with any element of ash's case that I could find. But, he has stayed on the wagon despite ample opportunity to shift his vote. He has subtly continued to push it, with posts like the scramble one. I think "scramble" is very much associated with scumminess in this group, and there was no reason to mention it in that way unless he wanted to make me look scummy. He also accused both shraeye and Theorel of being scum immediately after they said I was towny. He denied saying the wagon was unfair, despite having said ash was unfair to be twisting "everything" I do.
These points are why I say he is pushing a lynch he doesn't feel genuine conviction about.
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Actually, putting them together strengthens my point. It shows advocating and lack of conviction one right after the other. I separated them because I had put the two issues in two different sections.
TA do you have a response to my response?
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Sorry, it was #1391 if that's wasn't clear.
I think you make a good point about Eevee subtly pushing a wagon when you're not a huge scum read. I'd like to hear a response from Eevee, and while I think you're exaggerating a bit to make your point, I think the central point you have it a fairly sound one.
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Sorry, it was #1391 if that's wasn't clear.
Oh, ok. I'm actually looking for an explicit retraction of the egregious editing accusation, if that's ok, because that's a pretty serious thing to accuse me of and I think I have demonstrated that it really isn't the case.
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Oh my oh my. I don't see any reason to change my votes, raerae looks townier for slowing my wagon down a bit, because it's likely that at least one of the viable or semi-viable candidates is scum.
Not defending himself.
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Are we still going with the soft deadline of tomorrow evening I hope?
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My reads:
Town:
Xeiron, Chairs, Ashersky, Nkirbit, Ahoppy, eevee, raerae, Theorel.
These townreads makes up the backbones of my reads. They are all based on things that have been said and done, And all of them have very little to no chance of flipping scum.
I am a little conserened that with so many townreads already, scum might have slipped in here somehow. For now I will treat all of these as town and concentrate on the rest:
Scum: TwistedArcher, mail-mi, Shraeye, EFHW
The remaining players. I have thought about possible scumteams and I think
{TwistedArcher, Shraeye, mail-mi} fits the best when reading the game.
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You've narrowed all possible scum down to 4 players? Care to tell us why?
EFHW, I'll take back the egregious, but I do stillt hink you are exaggerating to make your points clear.
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Xeiron, if you're town, the confidence you're putting into both your plan and your reads is pretty poor play, IMO. Being so sure that your plan is the right think, and so sure that SEVEN players are town, on D1 is really going to focus your play in a way that's not great for town, if you're wrong (which you almost certainly are, I'll bet you anything those seven aren't all town!)
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Alright, sorry for my absence again, but real life trumps mafia, sorry. Anyways, thoughts while I was away:
Fair point, that chairs really hasn't done anything ultra towny besides his claim. I still see it as town, but I understand that you may not. Heck, he and xerion could have planned this together from the beginning to set up some crazy D1 fake claim. Far fetched? yeah, but still, gotta think of all the options. Another question though: If you're willing to lynch chairs, then you're also willing to let xerion not go through with his plan. so are you then willing to lynch xerion?
Also, I see a lot of people clamoring for the cases on eevee, so here's a link to mine
I'll be the first to admit it isn't a very strong case, and is based on scumteams which I think are tough to call D1, but I still don't like his seeming to communicate with ash.
Looking over the spiritbears wagon stuff (from post 1252):
-Eevee thinks this has all the makings of a mislynch. This early, I'm not sure I would have called this the makings of a mislynch. With only 2 people ever voting for spiritbears, he was never really in danger of getting lynched. Building a case on him =/= to building a mislynch. Town builds cases all the time, and pushes for reactions. TA was just pushing for an answer that never seemed to come.
-Ash thinks SB looks towny
-Eevee flips and says he's not against a spirit lynch (even though he looked like a mislynch earlier) and is now reading him null
-the very next post, ash also flips and says he's neutral on SB. I still don't like the buddying between you too. I understand some of this may be reading into you two from mean girls too much, but I really don't want to get burned again and I'm seeing some parallels.
xerion comes in saying that the best way to end the day quickly is to still follow him? even though he is the only one currently willing to no lynch? I was one of the few people willing to no lynch earlier and now I don't think that is the best idea who do you think is going to follow you x? do you really think you can get 6 more people, especially considering many say they never want to no lynch?
One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
I haven't read RMM7 so I can't comment on that, but I really don't understand this... if she's suspected as scum, she probably isn't scum? So any time we suspect that she is scum we should not lynch her, and any time we think she isn't scum we should? I'm sorry eevee, that makes no sense to me.
So those are the significant things I gathered from today (Real time). I still don't like xerion very much, and if more than me, theorel and nkirbit could get behind a xerion lynch, I probably would. But for now, the most compelling case to me is still eevee. Although, mail-mi hasn't been very active in a while and I don't really remember much of shraeye's play, so I should go back and re-read them when I have time. But for now I don't have the time and we need a lynch
Regarding my lurking and theory talk:
During the day I am at work, where I can check the thread on my phone. So I usually keep up and then post something if I really have something to say about it (which isn't often, and just so happens to usually involve myself). I do this because there are a number of times where I have an idea and tell myself I'll post it later, and then either I forget it, or someone else says it and I would end up just sheeping their point rather than being able to make it myself... Also, I keep posts relatively brief while at work (I am supposed to be working you know) and so it is easier to discuss theory. I also have a hard time working with quotes and re-reading on my phone, so scum-hunting is much harder. Not a very compelling excuse, but there it is.
PPE: I agree with you TA, I can't comprehend how xerion can be so sure of everyone this early. I wasn't that sure on the last day of mean girls... doesn't sit well with me either.
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
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I don't know what to make of EFHW's conviction about me. Like, I know she is wrong and is stretching any point she can find to a maximum, but maybe she just found my vote on her that frustrating.
I don't really know how to defend myself. All game I've been putting my genuine reads and impressions out there without thinking if it advances any sort of an agenda, trying to see both sides of the argument and arriving at the right conclusion. You have seen me play scum, it's not like I'm inherently unable to remember what I thought / need to backtrack all the time unless I want to. I don't know how else to refute the case.
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What deadline? Nobody has set one yet. Why is Eevee the best choice?
Okay, I'll set one. This is an OFFICIAL soft deadline. I brought it up ages ago and the ONLY other suggestions were for earlier deadlines. Some people wanted July 2nd, someone even suggested Monday. NO ONE EVER objected to it EVER.
The SOFT DEADLINE is OFFICIALLY set as tonight at 7:00 pm by lack of any later deadline being suggested. I actually think that the earlier deadlines were probably better suggestions. This day has worn on too long and this thread is too long given the information we have (which is next to nothing).
There, now we're up against the deadline that everyone (except raerae) already assumed had been set.
We need a soft deadline because otherwise we're going to waste all our (bankable) time and end up with a 300-page day1 because no one is willing to compromise on their uninformed reads until they're up against a deadline.
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Okay, now, I reread Eevee some yesterday (his first 50 posts), and I noticed that even before his "this is a mislynch waiting to happen" post, he declared that spiritbears appeared "way scummier than usual".
Some surrounding posts:
Twisted Archer's vote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262290#msg262290), next post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262292#msg262292) ashersky puts spiritbears in "will lynch" category.
A couple posts later (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262352#msg262352) I note that spiritbears seems a bit scummier for the efhw-shraeye interaction.
Then 3 posts later (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262362#msg262362) Eevee finds spiritbears "way scummier than usual". Though he also notes how "unsure he is of everything this game".
Following this:
xeiron rereads (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262417#msg262417) finds spiritbears townie.
2 posts later (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262434#msg262434) efhw notes spiritbears is a town-read.
Then, after some back and forth between TwistedArcher, spiritbears, efhw, and myself:
Eevee's "all the makings of a mislynch" post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262525#msg262525).
I dunno, that much of the reread convinces me that efhw's case holds water. I think it's the best case among the suggested lynches.
Okay, I really and truly think this day needs to end. I can't express that enough. I hoped that joining a currently-existing wagon might lead to that result, but maybe it's insufficient. I dunno what I can do. I'll do a pops-quiz type thing:
Preferred lynches:
xeiron, shraeye, mail-mi, eevee. I think it's highly likely that at least one of these players will flip scum.
wagons I would join given that they're growing (i.e. sufficiently neutral reads):
ashersky, Ahoppy
wagons I'd rather not join, but would do so if they're the ONLY viable lynch. (i.e. I had to in order to make a lynch happen)
TwistedArcher, raerae, nkirbit, chairs, efhw
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You've narrowed all possible scum down to 4 players? Care to tell us why?
EFHW, I'll take back the egregious, but I do stillt hink you are exaggerating to make your points clear.
I am trying to make my points clear, yes. I didn't exaggerate any facts. You may feel I place too much importance on some of the facts, which is possible. Everyone can make up their own minds.
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Prefer EFHW, then mail-mi.
Would lynch X before Eevee.
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I really would prefer AHoppy (or nkirbit, which is way too late to happen--nkirbit's extreme pushign of plan-having xeiron, and ridiculous position regarding AHoppy and that one post back when).
Twisted and Eevee are slight scum to me; from both, really, a number of posts and interactions feel off. Eevee's interactions feel more off than Twisted's I'd say, with the interaction with ash that AHoppy pointed out, and the odd pairing with nkirbit that EFHW pointed out much earlier. Additionally, Eevee was a player who was toeing the background line earlier, but I think less so now.
theorel and mail-mi, are backgroundy enough to lynch, I have no substantial opinion about either, which is unsettling.
chairs has paper and should give it to xeiron. so no chairs, although he is backgroundy, I'm leaning townish due to the paper-claim.
xeiron's off the table for his plan; I think people who are painting his plan as a scum-gambit to get out of fire for two whole days are really putting on their conspiracy hats too hard. It's much more likely that xeiron is being completely honest with his intentions for this plan. I see such a bold gambit as something that xeiron is very very unlikely to be willing to pull off.
EFHW is reading town as well
ash, raerae both read strongly town. They are very in-your-face and working hard.
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Chairs & TA, you asked for this and NEVER commented on it. Why is this not convincing enough for you?
I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing. However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose. I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.
I think most of the case on Ahoppy is he's a lurker and not scum hunting, correct? That's how he played in Mean Girls. The stuff he did previously when I voted was certainly fishy, but it's true that he jumped on Eevee, and not EFHW, when EFHW had the most votes.
It's not just that he's being quiet and backgroundy. I think that is a large strike against him. But also, when you review his posts, he spent the early part of today talking about theory while there was plenty of scumhunting going on to talk about. After many posts about items/no-lynch, AHoppy posts this:
I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
saying we should focus more on scumhunting.
His next 3 posts are all about items and theory, and the third finishes with this
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
His next post (#284) is really the first that he tries to do anything in the way of scumhunting. And all he does is call out lurkers; also misremembering who was fightign with Twisted at that point (it was me, but he said raerae). He really isn't focused on any arguments, or any scumhunting at this point. Finally he starts coming in with some reads about people starting from #554, but since then he's only had 15 posts.
The second point against AHoppy, is that in addition to being relatively absent, he continually pops up when his name is mentioned. raerae had a post about this earlier. In addition, Ahoppy comes back after a large break apologizing for being absent, and it comes within half-hour of me voting for him, and also Eevee noting that nobody has noticed AHoppy in ages. His last post before then was more than 2 days ago. Vacations are vacations, I understand. But as newer scum confused in a game with some pretty loud voices, there is a lot of incentive to stretch those absences until he gets nervous by many people mentioning his name.
Here is raerae's post to this effect.
shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory. EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post. (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Then nothing for a bit but this...
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.
Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy.
I agree that this looks pretty suspicious, though Ahoppy clears it up in this quote:
Alright, sorry for my absence again, but real life trumps mafia, sorry. Anyways, thoughts while I was away:
Fair point, that chairs really hasn't done anything ultra towny besides his claim. I still see it as town, but I understand that you may not. Heck, he and xerion could have planned this together from the beginning to set up some crazy D1 fake claim. Far fetched? yeah, but still, gotta think of all the options. Another question though: If you're willing to lynch chairs, then you're also willing to let xerion not go through with his plan. so are you then willing to lynch xerion?
Also, I see a lot of people clamoring for the cases on eevee, so here's a link to mine
I'll be the first to admit it isn't a very strong case, and is based on scumteams which I think are tough to call D1, but I still don't like his seeming to communicate with ash.
Looking over the spiritbears wagon stuff (from post 1252):
-Eevee thinks this has all the makings of a mislynch. This early, I'm not sure I would have called this the makings of a mislynch. With only 2 people ever voting for spiritbears, he was never really in danger of getting lynched. Building a case on him =/= to building a mislynch. Town builds cases all the time, and pushes for reactions. TA was just pushing for an answer that never seemed to come.
-Ash thinks SB looks towny
-Eevee flips and says he's not against a spirit lynch (even though he looked like a mislynch earlier) and is now reading him null
-the very next post, ash also flips and says he's neutral on SB. I still don't like the buddying between you too. I understand some of this may be reading into you two from mean girls too much, but I really don't want to get burned again and I'm seeing some parallels.
xerion comes in saying that the best way to end the day quickly is to still follow him? even though he is the only one currently willing to no lynch? I was one of the few people willing to no lynch earlier and now I don't think that is the best idea who do you think is going to follow you x? do you really think you can get 6 more people, especially considering many say they never want to no lynch?
One problem about lynching EFHW is that when she was scum in RMM7, no one (especially not me) had any clue. So, being suspected a lot doesn't really fit what we know of her previous scum play.
I haven't read RMM7 so I can't comment on that, but I really don't understand this... if she's suspected as scum, she probably isn't scum? So any time we suspect that she is scum we should not lynch her, and any time we think she isn't scum we should? I'm sorry eevee, that makes no sense to me.
So those are the significant things I gathered from today (Real time). I still don't like xerion very much, and if more than me, theorel and nkirbit could get behind a xerion lynch, I probably would. But for now, the most compelling case to me is still eevee. Although, mail-mi hasn't been very active in a while and I don't really remember much of shraeye's play, so I should go back and re-read them when I have time. But for now I don't have the time and we need a lynch
Regarding my lurking and theory talk:
During the day I am at work, where I can check the thread on my phone. So I usually keep up and then post something if I really have something to say about it (which isn't often, and just so happens to usually involve myself). I do this because there are a number of times where I have an idea and tell myself I'll post it later, and then either I forget it, or someone else says it and I would end up just sheeping their point rather than being able to make it myself... Also, I keep posts relatively brief while at work (I am supposed to be working you know) and so it is easier to discuss theory. I also have a hard time working with quotes and re-reading on my phone, so scum-hunting is much harder. Not a very compelling excuse, but there it is.
PPE: I agree with you TA, I can't comprehend how xerion can be so sure of everyone this early. I wasn't that sure on the last day of mean girls... doesn't sit well with me either.
I think that Ahoppy's on something here - Eevee has repeatedly seemed to try to poke without poking and see what sticks. I would be slightly surprised to find ashersky was scum, unless we find Eevee is. I've also read much the same way as TA has here:
Shraeye, two reasons why I'm hesitant and why I prefer Eevee:
1) I have a town read on Nkirbit, and Nkirbit has reason to believe Ahoppy is town based off his leaked info.
2) I just think this might be how Ahoppy plays, and that he's not all that used to scumhunting, and goes off of stuff other people generate. That's just a different way of playing, and not necessarily scummy.
The idea of lynching lurkers is that they're scared and they stay back and are afraid to post normally, right? Well, if the person posts the same amount and hunts the same amount as they did when they were town, this argument loses traction.
Don't get me wrong, he's definitely not the worst lynch, and I'm slight scum on him (although less so after nkirbit's info), but I think Eevee is more likely to flip scum.
I'd still lynch Ahoppy over EFHW, though.
I don't know if I'd lynch Ahoppy over EFHW, but I'd definitely lynch Eevee over both of them at this point. That's why (yesterday, when I thought the deadline would pass before I could have another posting opportunity) I voted in favor of Eevee. I had inteded to reread, but I ended up passing out when I got home and don't have time right now because of work.
One last quote that hit me:
My reads:
Town:
Xeiron, Chairs, Ashersky, Nkirbit, Ahoppy, eevee, raerae, Theorel.
These townreads makes up the backbones of my reads. They are all based on things that have been said and done, And all of them have very little to no chance of flipping scum.
I am a little conserened that with so many townreads already, scum might have slipped in here somehow. For now I will treat all of these as town and concentrate on the rest:
Scum: TwistedArcher, mail-mi, Shraeye, EFHW
The remaining players. I have thought about possible scumteams and I think
{TwistedArcher, Shraeye, mail-mi} fits the best when reading the game.
As much as I appreciate you thinking I'm town, you are ridiculously overconfident in your overall position, I think. I'm glad that you were able to recognize this yourself, but let's see if we can pick apart some of your townreads (if I can find time to post from work).
That being said, I'm concerned I may again be in a position where I can't necessarily weigh in before the (now existing) soft deadline, so I'll reiterate my opinion: I don't think we have any absolutely amazing choices here, but my strongest instinct says Eevee.
vote: Eevee
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Yeah, I don't know how to refute the case. This is how I play as town, I just spew my what's in my mind out there. And hmm, well, I think people are pulling the quotes up selectively and misrepresenting their meaning a lot.
Should I claim or something? I guess I'm as good a mislynch as any.
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What deadline? Nobody has set one yet. Why is Eevee the best choice?
Okay, I'll set one. This is an OFFICIAL soft deadline. I brought it up ages ago and the ONLY other suggestions were for earlier deadlines. Some people wanted July 2nd, someone even suggested Monday. NO ONE EVER objected to it EVER.
The SOFT DEADLINE is OFFICIALLY set as tonight at 7:00 pm by lack of any later deadline being suggested. I actually think that the earlier deadlines were probably better suggestions. This day has worn on too long and this thread is too long given the information we have (which is next to nothing).
There, now we're up against the deadline that everyone (except raerae) already assumed had been set.
We need a soft deadline because otherwise we're going to waste all our (bankable) time and end up with a 300-page day1 because no one is willing to compromise on their uninformed reads until they're up against a deadline.
Do noooooot like this at all. This is basically saying "we WILL lynch eevee or ahoppy!!!"
I agree soft deadlines are good but this seems intended more to force through your preferred lynch rather than helping town save time.
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This is totally reactionary against people who refuse to acknowledge posts suggesting soft deadlines and then claim that there never was one. It REALLY annoys me when soft deadlines are suggested, accepted by multiple players, multiple players act in such a way as to keep that deadline, and another player pretends like the soft deadline conversation never existed.
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Eevee is at L-2, I believe? I don't think Nkirbit's vote is still there?
Would lynch: Eevee, Ahoppy, Ashersky (just feels scummier the more and more I read)
Might lynch: Theorel (getting uneasy about him, though), Shraeye, EFHW, Chairs
Won't lynch: Nkirbit, Raerae, Xeiron, mail-mi
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I'm fine with the soft deadline. I would prefer a little later in the evening though, but I should be able to make it work. My vote isn't going to change, I just hope I can check the thread to claim if I need to before 7.
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This is totally reactionary against people who refuse to acknowledge posts suggesting soft deadlines and then claim that there never was one. It REALLY annoys me when soft deadlines are suggested, accepted by multiple players, multiple players act in such a way as to keep that deadline, and another player pretends like the soft deadline conversation never existed.
Yes, it is strange that raerae says we don't have a deadline. We settled on today quite some time ago, though I and someone else suggested Monday at a couple points and ash wanted Tuesday. I know there is a ton to read, but it was discussed more than once.
I have an impression of raerae working against town somehow. Maybe it's her style of questioning everything without saying much of her own perspective on the things she questions. I know she has settled on Ahoppy as her preferred lynch. I don't know. It's an impression.
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I won't be around from 6-8, so 7 isn't the best, but I'll be sure to check in before and after.
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We could do midnight. That's would also fulfill it being today. I really just picked 7pm without much reason (I think other deadlines have been around then maybe?). I'll be gone by around 3:30 anyways, it's not like there's a time when everyone can be here.
Since there are actual objections to this time though, let's say 9pm.
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My reads:
Town:
Xeiron, Chairs, Ashersky, Nkirbit, Ahoppy, eevee, raerae, Theorel.
These townreads makes up the backbones of my reads. They are all based on things that have been said and done, And all of them have very little to no chance of flipping scum.
I am a little conserened that with so many townreads already, scum might have slipped in here somehow. For now I will treat all of these as town and concentrate on the rest:
Scum: TwistedArcher, mail-mi, Shraeye, EFHW
The remaining players. I have thought about possible scumteams and I think
{TwistedArcher, Shraeye, mail-mi} fits the best when reading the game.
Your grouping is so different from the conversations that have been taking place. You say your reads are based on things people have said and done. It would be very helpful if you could specify what those things are. It seems like you may have perspectives the rest of us haven't thought of so far.
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Right now nkirbit is the only one without a vote down. xeiron is also not voting for any person.
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Yeah, I don't know how to refute the case. This is how I play as town, I just spew my what's in my mind out there. And hmm, well, I think people are pulling the quotes up selectively and misrepresenting their meaning a lot.
Should I claim or something? I guess I'm as good a mislynch as any.
Just to be fair, I'm going to see if I can't eat at work (instead of eating out) to give you one solid reread.
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Vote Count 1.15
EFHW (3) ashersky, mail-mi, Eevee
Eevee (5) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher, chairs
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) nkirbit
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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Is there a chance Xeiron is scum just watching us whittle away our time? Like, he's been completely unhelpful in moving the game forward, answering questions, etc., and has assurances he's not getting lynched today. In his shoes, if he's scum, this behavior makes complete sense (I'd waste away every hour I could as scum too if I knew I didn't have the risk of getting lynched for it)
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I really would prefer AHoppy (or nkirbit, which is way too late to happen--nkirbit's extreme pushign of plan-having xeiron, and ridiculous position regarding AHoppy and that one post back when).
I completely, 100% disagree with your view on Nkirbit.
I disagree on the likelihood that Xeiron is scummy (though everything he does REALLY makes me wonder...) But I think that Nkirbit has been absolutely logical in his views, and while I disagree with core assumptions (Xeiron is overzealous town vs. scheming scum), his arguments make so much sense. I don't think he's coming from a bad place in regards to Xeiron.
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I've read the case on Eevee and his "that's just how I play as town" defense and I will vote: Eevee because I like the case, don't like the defense, and he's closest to being lynched.
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If we're going to lynch, I would like Xeiron's reads before the lynch happens
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I just want to say I think I'm a terrible day 1 lynch*, I think you should know better, and I hope people making this happen will be scrutinized tomorrow. Although, I think there is a good chance the scum team is like shraeye-theorel or whatever and the alternative wagons wouldnt have been on scum either.
*How I've played is not how you should expect me to play scum nor is it scummy in a vacuum, plus I have potential to be very useful later.
L-1 though, should I claim? I doubt it makes anyone to change their mind, seems you are all thinking "well this day needs to end and Eevee could be scum eh whatever" which is a bit frustrating. I sent an item to someone last night, should I claim the person / the item?
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I just want to say I think I'm a terrible day 1 lynch*, I think you should know better, and I hope people making this happen will be scrutinized tomorrow. Although, I think there is a good chance the scum team is like shraeye-theorel or whatever and the alternative wagons wouldnt have been on scum either.
*How I've played is not how you should expect me to play scum nor is it scummy in a vacuum, plus I have potential to be very useful later.
L-1 though, should I claim? I doubt it makes anyone to change their mind, seems you are all thinking "well this day needs to end and Eevee could be scum eh whatever" which is a bit frustrating. I sent an item to someone last night, should I claim the person / the item?
Wait for claim to hammer.
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I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread? I feel like I have my hands full as it is.
#1252 (wow)
Just reading your post, I thought, yeah, Eevee and Ash look scummy. But I decided to go back and look at the actual thread, and your summary leaves out a couple posts that weaken the cases against them a bit. My post numbers are approximate, as usual. #448 Ash says he would lynch sb and #456 Eevee says sb is scummy. So they didn't start out with townreads. Later when Eevee defends sb he is saying your case isn't strong, but doesn't actually say he thinks sb is town. When Ash says "sb is looking towny in all this" he's referring to the conflict with you, and that's after three prompts by Eevee, the first two of which he evaded. It's 300 posts later when they say they have null reads on him. So they are both mostly non-committal, I'd say, more than contradictory.
Don't get me wrong, I still think there's lots of evidence against Eevee, and maybe even Ashersky, but your summary was incomplete and therefore a bit misleading.
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*How I've played is not how you should expect me to play scum nor is it scummy in a vacuum, plus I have potential to be very useful later.
You say you aren't being scummy, but then why haven't you ever given a reason that wasn't about Ashersky for your vote on me and your keeping your vote there?
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Wait until hammer intent, Eevee.
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I'm surprised no one's had anything to say about SB's wagon and the opinions on it. I think it's useful information that we should absolutely be using, analyze it people!
Can you pull something together, or at least point us to the relevant sections of the thread? I feel like I have my hands full as it is.
#1252 (wow)
Just reading your post, I thought, yeah, Eevee and Ash look scummy. But I decided to go back and look at the actual thread, and your summary leaves out a couple posts that weaken the cases against them a bit. My post numbers are approximate, as usual. #448 Ash says he would lynch sb and #456 Eevee says sb is scummy. So they didn't start out with townreads. Later when Eevee defends sb he is saying your case isn't strong, but doesn't actually say he thinks sb is town. When Ash says "sb is looking towny in all this" he's referring to the conflict with you, and that's after three prompts by Eevee, the first two of which he evaded. It's 300 posts later when they say they have null reads on him. So they are both mostly non-committal, I'd say, more than contradictory.
Don't get me wrong, I still think there's lots of evidence against Eevee, and maybe even Ashersky, but your summary was incomplete and therefore a bit misleading.
Looking back, you're right. I glossed over Ash's reads (wasn't looking for anything on SB over there), but not sure how I missed #456.
I think when Eevee says "this has all the makings of a mislynch!" that's pretty clearly implying that he thinks SB is town. Town get mislynched, scum don't get mislynched.
I interpreted Ash saying "SB looks towny in all of this" in relation to Scum!Eevee defending SB, since scum!eevee would know SB would flip town, and that as a result of "this" SB looks towny. So I think that was in relation to Eevee, not in relation to me.
So even if Eevee thought SB was scummy initially, there was a point after that where he thought SB had all the makings of a clear mislynch (which I think can't be interpreted as anything other than a town read on SB), then eventually changed that to a null read. Same with AShersky.
It probably weakens the scumminess that I get on Eevee and Ashersky, but it still does show their opinions on SB changing despite SB's views and arguments not changing at all (the case remained the same, SB's defense was largely the same post after post, yet eventually the reads of Eevee and Ashersky, at some point, went from "yeah he's towny / this is a mislynch" to "I'm not against this lynch"
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Eevee, out of the people on your wagon, who do you find scummiest (for hopping on the wagon, regardless of what you thought of them before).
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*How I've played is not how you should expect me to play scum nor is it scummy in a vacuum, plus I have potential to be very useful later.
You say you aren't being scummy, but then why haven't you ever given a reason that wasn't about Ashersky for your vote on me and your keeping your vote there?
I have. I would have already unvoted if I didn't feel like you are scrambling to paint me as scummy, and honestly maybe I'm keeping my vote on you only because I'm frustrated and don't like any of the bigger wagons, but the reason was you no defending yourself in a towny way when ash was heavy pressuring you. Looked like a classic "scum caught for the wrong feelings" reaction.
Honestly, I think you are lynching me for scumhunting in my own way, for the lack of a better target.
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Vote Count 1.16
EFHW (2) ashersky, Eevee
Eevee (6) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher, chairs, mail-mi
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) nkirbit
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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I do not like the lynch alternatives right now, so I will try to start a new one by vote: mail-mi.
Why mail-mi is scum:
I think mail-mi plays to "safe" by always providing a "way out" when he votes.
Here is all of mail-mi's votes, excluding rvs.
I would really like to hear from Eevee And theorel
Vote: eevee
Here he votes eevee, but makes sure he can unvote later as sonn as eevee starts posting anything towny.
As for my successful tracking of scum!mcmc in Mean Girls, nothing wrong with being proud to have played well as town previously when I'm town again.
I think ash's gloating about his successful fake claim in Mean Girls is scum!ash trying to get into our heads. Also, it's annoying. vote: ash
He makes a small case on Ashersky (Ash trying to get into our heads with Mean Girls bragging), but he adds that it is anoying so that he later can say "Oh, Ash is towny, I voted because he was annoying" or something like that should he ever need to change his ash-scumread to a townread.
vote: eevee
Why the scumread on me, mail-mi? Just me not posting enough, or something else too?
Not posting enough, and what ash said, and you just feel off this game.
I find his reasons to vote eevee a bit to easy.
I think I'm gonna reread someone. Suggestions?
Okay, I'm going to reread xeiron and all of his 9 whopping posts.
(long post that I have left out)
Now, I know xeiron always looks scummy. But 9 posts in 27 pages?!?!?!?! And I think the scummy outweighs the towny, and he really needs to get back here. vote: xeiron.
And then we have this part where Mail-mi ask for who he should reread, choses me, and then conveniently finds me scummy enough to vote. This is scummy by its own, and when he votes he adds "and he really needs to get back here." so that he can use "unvote now that xeiron is back." if I should start to post a lot of towny posts.
re: X's plan: I believe that we let him go through with it (aka give him some pen and paper), but we don't no lynch today.
The no lynch inconsistancy with EFHW is weird, and with the other things ash has put together, I think it's enough for a D1 vote: efhw
He here says " I think it's enough for a D1 vote". Leaves open possibilities to both push EFHW further and to withdraw later with a "But I never really liked the EFHW lynch wery much" whichever would be more convenient.
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I've read the case on Eevee and his "that's just how I play as town" defense and I will vote: Eevee because I like the case, don't like the defense, and he's closest to being lynched.
Mail-mi is still providing a mislynch-excuse with "But we needed a lynch and eevee was closest.
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I didn't realize efhw had died like that.
Vote: mailmi, xeiron seems towny for not including mailmi's always scummy rvs, and i got to lower my standards now that I'm on the chopping block. I guess I'm fine with ahoppy too.
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I didn't realize efhw had died like that.
Vote: mailmi, xeiron seems towny for not including mailmi's always scummy rvs, and i got to lower my standards now that I'm on the chopping block. I guess I'm fine with ahoppy too.
Hm?
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I think rvs is best used as a period where you can vote for even the flimsiest resembles of a reason. i dont like just truly randomly firing votes, although I'm realizing this is probably just me. I guess you are often at your most active in rvs is the main thing.
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*How I've played is not how you should expect me to play scum nor is it scummy in a vacuum, plus I have potential to be very useful later.
You say you aren't being scummy, but then why haven't you ever given a reason that wasn't about Ashersky for your vote on me and your keeping your vote there?
I have.
Please point it out. I can't find it.
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I see it was my non-towny defense. That's what I need pointed out, then.
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Actually, I hope people can refer back to my earlier posts to see the reasons for my vote and case on Eevee. I don't want to get into a back and forth disputing each part of things he or I say. I think I have addressed all the relevant issues and unless new ones come up, I'm going to leave it up to town to make their best decision at this point.
I have no idea re: mail-mi. He's being thoroughly scummy, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, unfortunately. Earlier I said he was being scummy even for him, but in retrospect I think he's being typically scummy.
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
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I've read the case on Eevee and his "that's just how I play as town" defense and I will vote: Eevee because I like the case, don't like the defense, and he's closest to being lynched.
Mail-mi is still providing a mislynch-excuse with "But we needed a lynch and eevee was closest.
I read this and the post you made immediately prior. Bravo, I say. I really like your overall read on thins, you pointed out something that I didn't immediately notice. This also intrigues me in conjunction with this post from EFHW:
Actually, I hope people can refer back to my earlier posts to see the reasons for my vote and case on Eevee. I don't want to get into a back and forth disputing each part of things he or I say. I think I have addressed all the relevant issues and unless new ones come up, I'm going to leave it up to town to make their best decision at this point.
I have no idea re: mail-mi. He's being thoroughly scummy, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, unfortunately. Earlier I said he was being scummy even for him, but in retrospect I think he's being typically scummy.
Do you think that EFHW's insistence on eevee could be considered scum trying to ensure the hammer on a mislynch?
unvote
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
no
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Do you think that EFHW's insistence on eevee could be considered scum trying to ensure the hammer on a mislynch?
unvote
I could be, but it could aslo be she have a genuine scumread on eevee.
I have a hard time telling.
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
no
Seriously??
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
no
Can you explain why you won't explain your reads?
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Xeiron, if you have four possible scum, and one of them seems to be a potential candidate for today (EFHW), why aren't you voting there?
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Xeiron, if you have four possible scum, and one of them seems to be a potential candidate for today (EFHW), why aren't you voting there?
Because I find the other three more likely.
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
no
Can you explain why you won't explain your reads?
I am not going to do so today.
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
In the meantime, can you please explain your reads? Every single one of them?
no
Can you explain why you won't explain your reads?
I am not going to do so today.
Must...resist...urge...to...policy....vote
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A couple of questions for you, Xeiron:
If you're so sure that scum falls among four people, why on earth would you want to no lynch? Assuming 3 scum, that's a 75% chance of success! If I thought I had a 75% chance of success, no way I'd ever be advocating not actually lynching someone!
If you're so sure of who's scum, what's the point of your plan?
Everytime you make a post like this, you just get more suspicious to me..I think you're town, but man, you are so certain about so many things that you just can't possibly be certain about.
Several of these townreads did appeared after I put forth my no-lynch play.
I guess you are right that I should start working towards lynching someone now.
I whish I could say you are wrong in the last sentence, but you may be right that I am more certain about this game than I am.
It should be fine for D1, and I will thoroughly reconsider all my reads and assumtions in when D2 starts to make sure I wont play this game misguided.
This second part could be Xeiron planning his excuse for later days on why his "plan" hasn't work. This could just be a gambit and he's planning on saying D2 "Plan's in progress, leave me alone!" and then on D3 "Sorry guys, I miscalculated!" By that point, he's the lynch probably, but he avoided being lynched on the first two days.
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Xeiron, if you have four possible scum, and one of them seems to be a potential candidate for today (EFHW), why aren't you voting there?
Agree that this is very strange...
He's basically claiming to have already SOLVED THE GAME.
Yet, we MUST keep him alive, because he has a plan that will allow him to SOLVE THE GAME.
What??
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I'm going to announce my intentions to vote Eevee. I don't believe that it's the hammer, but I'm going to go back and recount to make sure I don't derp hammer.
Xeiron seems to be strongly pulling us away from this hammer. It's odd to me that's he's shown up in earnest right as Eevee gets to L-1, makes a case for another player, and Eevee immediately follows. But I'd much rather lynch Xeiron.
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Vote: Eevee
Back to L-1.
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Xeiron, if you have four possible scum, and one of them seems to be a potential candidate for today (EFHW), why aren't you voting there?
Agree that this is very strange...
He's basically claiming to have already SOLVED THE GAME.
Yet, we MUST keep him alive, because he has a plan that will allow him to SOLVE THE GAME.
What??
I have a plan that will allow me to SOLVE THE GAME as you call it. I have not done so already.
But I do have stronger reads that I ever have had D1.
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Vote Count 1.17
EFHW (2) ashersky, Eevee
Eevee (6) EFHW, AHoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher, mail-mi, nkirbit
AHoppy (2) shraeye, raerae
mail-mi (2) xeiron, Eevee
No Lynch (1) xeiron
Not Voting: (1) chairs
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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Xeiron, if you have four possible scum, and one of them seems to be a potential candidate for today (EFHW), why aren't you voting there?
Agree that this is very strange...
He's basically claiming to have already SOLVED THE GAME.
Yet, we MUST keep him alive, because he has a plan that will allow him to SOLVE THE GAME.
What??
I have a plan that will allow me to SOLVE THE GAME as you call it. I have not done so already.
But I do have stronger reads that I ever have had D1.
I just think it's pretty unbelievable that you're naming a scum team on D1, and refusing to vote for anyone except for those 3 people.
I'm biased, because I'm one of the people you named, and I have a strong town read on another (Mail-mi), but I think it's just much more likely, and it makes more sense, that you're lining up 3 townies for mislynch, not really caring which one gets lynched, while trying to steer the conversation away from others. In this instance, Eevee's very possibly your partner, giving the timing of how you've moved away from him, and EFHW very possibly, as well, giving that you put her in the group where scum would come from, yet you're unwilling to join a wagon on her.
Scum trying to line up any of 3 mislynches just makes way more sense than town actually thinking he's figured out the scum team D1.
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Town on Day1 is also willing to explain why he's "figured" out the scum team, so we can actually, you know, lynch them, rather than refusing to explain their reads. I think that the player with the most incentive to refuse to explain reads is the player who doesn't actually have them and is making up conclusions.
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Town on Day1 is also willing to explain why he's "figured" out the scum team, so we can actually, you know, lynch them, rather than refusing to explain their reads. I think that the player with the most incentive to refuse to explain reads is the player who doesn't actually have them and is making up conclusions.
Agreed, this really concerns me.
However, TA's point that he may be trying to buddy us away from the Eevee lynch is also valid.
I'd be the hammer and I want to see these last few hours before our soft deadline play out, but should we not have a solid alternative later, I'll be hammering on Eevee.
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I had hoped to avoid this.
I am a cop (one-shot)
I investigatedeevee and he is town
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Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
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Unvote to consider. This is actually consistent with some of the things Xeiron had said... such as having a town player to send pen + paper to for sure.
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Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
1. So I could send items to someone right from the start knowing they are town. (If they showed scum I would have them lynched D1)
2. To get a reliable read, as I believe any redirectors, framers or other roles that messes with results would be more likely to appear later in the game if they exists in this game at all. In RMM7 scum won by messing with the cop.
3. I hoped I would get other fancy roles to use later in the game.
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He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
1. So I could send items to someone right from the start knowing they are town. (If they showed scum I would have them lynched D1)
2. To get a reliable read, as I believe any redirectors, framers or other roles that messes with results would be more likely to appear later in the game if they exists in this game at all. In RMM7 scum won by messing with the cop.
3. I hoped I would get other fancy roles to use later in the game.
Ahoppy seems to believe that if one has a one-shot power, then they lose the ability to send items. This reads to me as something Ahoppy knows, and not merely speculation. Xeiron claims to be one-shot, yet still be able to send items after using his power.
I think this is worth discussing.
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I think in this instance your claim was necessary. I'm very excited to see how it affects what others are saying - since I believe you are more-likely-than-not town, this gives me all sorts of fun to reread how everybody felt about eevee (and of course I invite rereads of my own thoughts re: eevee as well). Offhand, this encourages suspicion of TA/nkirbit (though does not necessarily call them out as scum), and I guess makes me look a bit scummy myself (as I was willing to drop the hammer later).
Or we could WIFOM and you're arguing that you had one-shot cop when you're really just buddying to get your scumpartner Eevee out of the way...
...but I don't read this as that.
PPE:
He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
1. So I could send items to someone right from the start knowing they are town. (If they showed scum I would have them lynched D1)
2. To get a reliable read, as I believe any redirectors, framers or other roles that messes with results would be more likely to appear later in the game if they exists in this game at all. In RMM7 scum won by messing with the cop.
3. I hoped I would get other fancy roles to use later in the game.
Ahoppy seems to believe that if one has a one-shot power, then they lose the ability to send items. This reads to me as something Ahoppy knows, and not merely speculation. Xeiron claims to be one-shot, yet still be able to send items after using his power.
I think this is worth discussing.
I doubt that using a one-shot power precludes you from giving away items. I don't read AHoppy's statement the way you do, though - to me, AHoppy is implying that a mislynch denies us the opportunity to trade the items around to make new PRs. In other words, I believe AHoppy's intent is This being said, if ash is a (one-shot) investigative role, we may lose this power role on mislynch. We would also (unrelated to the PR) lose the ability to gain whatever item ashersky is providing.
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I had hoped to avoid this.
I am a cop (one-shot)
I investigatedeevee and he is town
Why avoid it if you are one-shot? We (I) could have avoided quite a lot of trouble if you had claimed earlier. Why should we believe you now?
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This is totally reactionary against people who refuse to acknowledge posts suggesting soft deadlines and then claim that there never was one. It REALLY annoys me when soft deadlines are suggested, accepted by multiple players, multiple players act in such a way as to keep that deadline, and another player pretends like the soft deadline conversation never existed.
Yes, it is strange that raerae says we don't have a deadline. We settled on today quite some time ago, though I and someone else suggested Monday at a couple points and ash wanted Tuesday. I know there is a ton to read, but it was discussed more than once.
I have an impression of raerae working against town somehow. Maybe it's her style of questioning everything without saying much of her own perspective on the things she questions. I know she has settled on Ahoppy as her preferred lynch. I don't know. It's an impression.
No. We settled on today and then YOU (correct me if I'm wrong) said, naw, let's switch it to Monday. Monday had come and gone when I posted that we didn't have a deadline because we'd already missed Monday and not reset Wednesday.
Also, how are questions bad for town? And I've already caught flack for this in a billion other games so don't bother pushing it here. I give full reads at the end of the day, not before. If you read carefully, you may be able to see that I'm suspicious of AHoppy, kermit, and a bit of TA. But you know, they aren't all condensed in a nice little soup can for you every other post so I can see how that could make it look that I'm working against town.
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He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Nope, not what I think. I was curious to know why someone would use a one shot role on someone if they don't have any basis for looking at a certain person. In xerion's case, I think it made sense. I can accept his response to my question although that does not bring him to an auto town read. But for now, unvote until I have more time to devote to this.
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It's possible that xeiron was allowed to use the cop first, get his result, and then send an item.
I can't believe that we would lose the ability to send out items after using a one-shot power. I don't have any specific knowledge, but that just sounds really unlikely to me.
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This is totally reactionary against people who refuse to acknowledge posts suggesting soft deadlines and then claim that there never was one. It REALLY annoys me when soft deadlines are suggested, accepted by multiple players, multiple players act in such a way as to keep that deadline, and another player pretends like the soft deadline conversation never existed.
Yes, it is strange that raerae says we don't have a deadline. We settled on today quite some time ago, though I and someone else suggested Monday at a couple points and ash wanted Tuesday. I know there is a ton to read, but it was discussed more than once.
I have an impression of raerae working against town somehow. Maybe it's her style of questioning everything without saying much of her own perspective on the things she questions. I know she has settled on Ahoppy as her preferred lynch. I don't know. It's an impression.
No. We settled on today and then YOU (correct me if I'm wrong) said, naw, let's switch it to Monday. Monday had come and gone when I posted that we didn't have a deadline because we'd already missed Monday and not reset Wednesday.
Also, how are questions bad for town? And I've already caught flack for this in a billion other games so don't bother pushing it here. I give full reads at the end of the day, not before. If you read carefully, you may be able to see that I'm suspicious of AHoppy, kermit, and a bit of TA. But you know, they aren't all condensed in a nice little soup can for you every other post so I can see how that could make it look that I'm working against town.
No need for sarcasm. I shared an impression. Questions are just fine, often helpful. More opinions and reasoning would be even better.
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Ahoppy seems to believe that if one has a one-shot power, then they lose the ability to send items. This reads to me as something Ahoppy knows, and not merely speculation. Xeiron claims to be one-shot, yet still be able to send items after using his power.
I think this is worth discussing.
Nope, not what I think. I was curious to know why someone would use a one shot role on someone if they don't have any basis for looking at a certain person. In xerion's case, I think it made sense. I can accept his response to my question although that does not bring him to an auto town read. But for now, unvote until I have more time to devote to this.
Hey look, I fixed AHoppy's quote-fail.
nkirbit, is that misinterpretation the thing that gave you the ridiculous town-read on AHoppy before?
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Wow, epic quotefail on my part. this is why I don't try to post quotes from my phone...
here's what I meant to say:
He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
1. So I could send items to someone right from the start knowing they are town. (If they showed scum I would have them lynched D1)
2. To get a reliable read, as I believe any redirectors, framers or other roles that messes with results would be more likely to appear later in the game if they exists in this game at all. In RMM7 scum won by messing with the cop.
3. I hoped I would get other fancy roles to use later in the game.
Ahoppy seems to believe that if one has a one-shot power, then they lose the ability to send items. This reads to me as something Ahoppy knows, and not merely speculation. Xeiron claims to be one-shot, yet still be able to send items after using his power.
I think this is worth discussing.
Nope, not what I think. I was curious to know why someone would use a one shot role on someone if they don't have any basis for looking at a certain person. In xerion's case, I think it made sense. I can accept his response to my question although that does not bring him to an auto town read. But for now, unvote until I have more time to devote to this.
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Okay, well, I was misreading Ahoppy. And that was my main concern about lynching Ahoppy from earlier: I thought he had info about what happened when a player used a X-shot role, and X-shot roles are much, much more commonly associated with town players than scum players.
I do think that Xeiron's claim is not complete, but that doesn't necessarily implicate him as scum.
I am re-thinking my scum-read on him. He has still done a lot of odd things, but I am less sure they're because he's scum at this point. Still a scumread, but not a rock-solid one like before.
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I had hoped to avoid this.
I am a cop (one-shot)
I investigatedeevee and he is town
Why avoid it if you are one-shot? We (I) could have avoided quite a lot of trouble if you had claimed earlier. Why should we believe you now?
I wanted to avoid claiming beacause I would like scum to know nothing about me and my powers.
You should believe me because if eevee is scum, then I am as well. And if I am scum you will get my flip before it's to late, as popular opinion seems to be to lynch me if I do not deliver with my plan.
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I think in this instance your claim was necessary. I'm very excited to see how it affects what others are saying - since I believe you are more-likely-than-not town, this gives me all sorts of fun to reread how everybody felt about eevee (and of course I invite rereads of my own thoughts re: eevee as well). Offhand, this encourages suspicion of TA/nkirbit (though does not necessarily call them out as scum), and I guess makes me look a bit scummy myself (as I was willing to drop the hammer later).
Or we could WIFOM and you're arguing that you had one-shot cop when you're really just buddying to get your scumpartner Eevee out of the way...
I don't think we get any information out of this. Eevee was being scummy and you can't suspect people for noticing that. If he isn't actually scum, then it wasted a whole of time and effort for xeiron not to tell us. It sets us way back with respect to the deadline as there isn't really another lynch that looks good and it will take time to find one.
His refusal to give reads is frustrating, too. Is it just too much trouble?
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Unvote
Initial reaction is to believe this but I need to think about it. I'm thinking it's probably true though.
Regardless, though:
I believe Eevee is no longer a viable lynch target. If we're lynching him, we're saying that we think Eevee is scum, AND Xeiron is lying scum, as well. There are instances where Xeiron could be scum, but Eevee isn't (Xeiron is making this up to gain town cred if Eevee flips town). The only instance where Xeiron is town but Eevee is scum is if Eevee is godfather.
This being said, if we don't believe the claim, we should 100% lynch Xeiron, not Eevee. Eevee should not be lynched today.
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No need for sarcasm. I shared an impression. Questions are just fine, often helpful. More opinions and reasoning would be even better.
I'm sorry. Have we met? I'm a bowl full of sarcasm shoved in a box full of sass. You're going to get some of both when you try to paint me negatively with flimsy "impressions" like that. And, for the record, I find it super interesting that you didn't respond to the deadline part of that response.
Xeiron: You haven't ever answered this: If you didn't want to repeat D1 RMM7, why have you claimed twice already this D1?
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Okay, well, I was misreading Ahoppy. And that was my main concern about lynching Ahoppy from earlier: I thought he had info about what happened when a player used a X-shot role, and X-shot roles are much, much more commonly associated with town players than scum players.
I do think that Xeiron's claim is not complete, but that doesn't necessarily implicate him as scum.
I am re-thinking my scum-read on him. He has still done a lot of odd things, but I am less sure they're because he's scum at this point. Still a scumread, but not a rock-solid one like before.
What evidence do you have for this?
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No need for sarcasm. I shared an impression. Questions are just fine, often helpful. More opinions and reasoning would be even better.
I'm sorry. Have we met? I'm a bowl full of sarcasm shoved in a box full of sass. You're going to get some of both when you try to paint me negatively with flimsy "impressions" like that. And, for the record, I find it super interesting that you didn't respond to the deadline part of that response.
Xeiron: You haven't ever answered this: If you didn't want to repeat D1 RMM7, why have you claimed twice already this D1?
I suggested Monday but shraeye shot it down. It was never agreed on.
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Okay, well, I was misreading Ahoppy. And that was my main concern about lynching Ahoppy from earlier: I thought he had info about what happened when a player used a X-shot role, and X-shot roles are much, much more commonly associated with town players than scum players.
I do think that Xeiron's claim is not complete, but that doesn't necessarily implicate him as scum.
I am re-thinking my scum-read on him. He has still done a lot of odd things, but I am less sure they're because he's scum at this point. Still a scumread, but not a rock-solid one like before.
What evidence do you have for this?
I don't have any evidence, really. Just an impression I have through reading games. The only X-shot mafia role I can remember from reading is jimmmm's jack of all trades role in LOTR. But 1 shot vig, 2 shot commuter, x shot cop, and other x shot roles seem to have shown up more often than mafia x shot roles.
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No need for sarcasm. I shared an impression. Questions are just fine, often helpful. More opinions and reasoning would be even better.
I'm sorry. Have we met? I'm a bowl full of sarcasm shoved in a box full of sass. You're going to get some of both when you try to paint me negatively with flimsy "impressions" like that. And, for the record, I find it super interesting that you didn't respond to the deadline part of that response.
Xeiron: You haven't ever answered this: If you didn't want to repeat D1 RMM7, why have you claimed twice already this D1?
By "do not want to repeat" I mean "do not softcaiming stuff based on a not-so-great case, and continue to leak way to much information, while coming out as inconsistent and scummy, and in the end getting myself lynched witch aslo causes the death of my town lover"
I am fine with claiming as long as it does more good than bad. It did not in RMM6.
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One hour to soft deadline. We should try to make it.
I think mail-mi is the best option we have, as a low-profile player that are scummy.
If we cannot agree on who is most scummy, we should go for an no lynch.
It is not a bad option in this game.
60 pages are too much for D1, and we have nothing to gain on making it 70.
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Vote: AHoppy
My major concern is now gone.
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Unvote
Initial reaction is to believe this but I need to think about it. I'm thinking it's probably true though.
Regardless, though:
I believe Eevee is no longer a viable lynch target. If we're lynching him, we're saying that we think Eevee is scum, AND Xeiron is lying scum, as well. There are instances where Xeiron could be scum, but Eevee isn't (Xeiron is making this up to gain town cred if Eevee flips town). The only instance where Xeiron is town but Eevee is scum is if Eevee is godfather.
This being said, if we don't believe the claim, we should 100% lynch Xeiron, not Eevee. Eevee should not be lynched today.
Agreed, Eevee is now the lease beneficial lynch. EFHW, although we don't agree much, is at least very foreground (much more so than myself, certainly) so I'd hate to see that opportunity for more discussion lost, and AHoppy's been roughly as background as I've been, with the added oddity of showing up right as concerns have been raised regarding said backgroundiness. I still think we've got the best collection of potential lynches here, and if my choices are down to EFHW or AHoppy...
Vote: AHoppy
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Feel free to join me on EFHW. I was right about X/Eevee, after all.
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Still on AHoppy. Come on, kids, let's get this done.
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Vote: Ahoppy
Lynch needs to happen, and now that Nkirbit's reservation is gone, and Eevee's not a viable target, I'm comfortable with him as our day 1 lynch.
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L-2 now
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60 pages in and what's this awesome case on Ahoppy? Lurking? We can do better.
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unvote
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unvote
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Read words, Ash. It's far more than lurking.
I'm kind of in the same boat as theorel - none of the wagons presented are particularly appealing. However, I'm willing to take a bad lynch over no lynch, I suppose. I'd like to see some (polite, calm) arguments for/against eevee and efhw cases to see if I can be swayed to either, but I'm leaning towards the relatively-quiet Ahoppy at the moment.
I think most of the case on Ahoppy is he's a lurker and not scum hunting, correct? That's how he played in Mean Girls. The stuff he did previously when I voted was certainly fishy, but it's true that he jumped on Eevee, and not EFHW, when EFHW had the most votes.
It's not just that he's being quiet and backgroundy. I think that is a large strike against him. But also, when you review his posts, he spent the early part of today talking about theory while there was plenty of scumhunting going on to talk about. After many posts about items/no-lynch, AHoppy posts this:
I think TA has hit it on the nose. I think today we should work on more scum hunting and less on the items. I like the items, I think it's cool, but I also think they could serve as a distraction from the big goal:kill scum. And I think scum could use that to their advantage
saying we should focus more on scumhunting.
His next 3 posts are all about items and theory, and the third finishes with this
However, I should remind people that we do need to get to scum hunting.
His next post (#284) is really the first that he tries to do anything in the way of scumhunting. And all he does is call out lurkers; also misremembering who was fightign with Twisted at that point (it was me, but he said raerae). He really isn't focused on any arguments, or any scumhunting at this point. Finally he starts coming in with some reads about people starting from #554, but since then he's only had 15 posts.
The second point against AHoppy, is that in addition to being relatively absent, he continually pops up when his name is mentioned. raerae had a post about this earlier. In addition, Ahoppy comes back after a large break apologizing for being absent, and it comes within half-hour of me voting for him, and also Eevee noting that nobody has noticed AHoppy in ages. His last post before then was more than 2 days ago. Vacations are vacations, I understand. But as newer scum confused in a game with some pretty loud voices, there is a lot of incentive to stretch those absences until he gets nervous by many people mentioning his name.
Here is raerae's post to this effect.
shraeye, AHoppy was a pretty frequent poster at the start of the game but then went MIA when talk started to turn away from theory. EFHW noted that with this post and AHoppy's response was the very next post. (NOTE: Most posts have been trimmed for spacing.)
No idea: X, -- and I have to look up to see who else is playing -- chairs, Ahoppy, nkirbit. Would love to hear from you guys!
Sorry, I've been a little busy. I'm planning on rereading and posting my thoughts tonight.
Then nothing for a bit but this...
Alright, I'm about to start my re-read, I'll post thoughts when I finish
EFHW is again the one to notice the under-contributing AHoppy.
Chairs is v/la, Ahoppy hasn't been back. We haven't heard from raerae or shraeye or theorel much today. So nothing new to say there.
And BOOM! three posts later the man himself shows up with something that almost resembles reads but really doesn't give opinions on folks.
Again promises read when theorel points out his previous reread post didn't actually contain reads.
I'll get my re-reads when I'm not on mobile. But theorel, I find it strange that you put out your scum reads, and then vote for your number 2. Why not your number 1?
Finally posts a real read re: SB & TA and fell on the side of seeing SB as scummy.
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Vote Count 1.efhw
EFHW (1) ashersky
Eevee (2) theorel, mail-mi
AHoppy (5) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher, nkirbit, chairs {L-2}
mail-mi (2) xeiron, Eevee
Not Voting: (2) AHoppy, EFHW
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Yup, I pieced together that case on him earlier. There is definitely more than "lurking".
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60 pages in and what's this awesome case on Ahoppy? Lurking? We can do better.
We need this game to end. We need the time for later and we need this game to not be a giant albatross.
Personally, I don't like the EFHW case, I won't lynch Raerae or Nkirbit or Mail-mi, don't like Xeiron or Eevee anymore, think we have less on Chairs than on Ahoppy. Only other lynches I'll consider are Theorel, Ashersky, and maaaaaybe Shraeye (don't have a scum read, have shockingly little memory on his views / points compared to usual).
I don't love the Ahoppy case, but I think it's sufficient for what we have right now, and we're wasting our time that will be better spent on another day if we spend another 3-4 days building more cases on people who may or may not get lynched.
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Day, not game
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Raerae, that case is weak. Lurk, lurk, lurk...crappy scum hunting...lurk...pops up at name.
Dude said he reads along by phone. He can post when asked.
Is he acti-lurking? Yep. Is that a reason to lynch D1? Yep. Is he the best lynch today, given we have far scummier folks around? Nope.
We also get zip from his flip. Bad lynch.
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60 pages in and what's this awesome case on Ahoppy? Lurking? We can do better.
We need this game to end. We need the time for later and we need this game to not be a giant albatross.
Personally, I don't like the EFHW case, I won't lynch Raerae or Nkirbit or Mail-mi, don't like Xeiron or Eevee anymore, think we have less on Chairs than on Ahoppy. Only other lynches I'll consider are Theorel, Ashersky, and maaaaaybe Shraeye (don't have a scum read, have shockingly little memory on his views / points compared to usual).
I don't love the Ahoppy case, but I think it's sufficient for what we have right now, and we're wasting our time that will be better spent on another day if we spend another 3-4 days building more cases on people who may or may not get lynched.
I get it. Day too long.
You see how your post says "this day is too long, let's mislynch town so it will end" right?
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TA, if you feel so strongly that the day needs to end that you feel lynching town is completely acceptable and preferred to not, why not offer yourself up?
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Ash, if lurking is really all you see in that case then here's my take: I'd rather lynch a lurker D1 than have to worry about them D4. I want people around with things to analyze, not somebody I know nothing about.
Shraeye and I are going to dinner with my folks and then I'm going to try to convince him to do a bit more packing. Consider this the unofficial start to our v/la.
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Vote Count 1.18
EFHW (1) ashersky
Eevee (2) theorel, mail-mi
AHoppy (5) shraeye, raerae, nkirbit, chairs, Twistedarcher
mail-mi (2) xeiron, Eevee
Not Voting: (2) AHoppy, EFHW
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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I don't have any kind of read on Ahoppy and don't want to vote him. And I don't have anyone else I have a strong scum read on now, so, yeah. I really did think Eevee was scum.
I'm not comfortable with how xeiron is pretty much running the show while parceling out information in tiny bits and pieces. It would super ultra daring to do all this as a scum ploy, but can we expect some kind of confirmation Day 2?
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How about mail-mi? He's a distant second on my scum read list.
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I don't have any kind of read on Ahoppy and don't want to vote him. And I don't have anyone else I have a strong scum read on now, so, yeah. I really did think Eevee was scum.
I'm not comfortable with how xeiron is pretty much running the show while parceling out information in tiny bits and pieces. It would super ultra daring to do all this as a scum ploy, but can we expect some kind of confirmation Day 2?
Scum could help us out and kill him.
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Wow that's a lot of stuff. I think I'll go back to efhw, and were at freakin' 61 pages!
vote: efhw
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I don't have any kind of read on Ahoppy and don't want to vote him. And I don't have anyone else I have a strong scum read on now, so, yeah. I really did think Eevee was scum.
I'm not comfortable with how xeiron is pretty much running the show while parceling out information in tiny bits and pieces. It would super ultra daring to do all this as a scum ploy, but can we expect some kind of confirmation Day 2?
Scum could help us out and kill him.
Him being xeiron? Then why aren't you voting him?
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How about mail-mi? He's a distant second on my scum read list.
He seems like a random voter at this point and lynching him would be a random lynch. So, I don't know.
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TA, if you feel so strongly that the day needs to end that you feel lynching town is completely acceptable and preferred to not, why not offer yourself up?
That's a silly question, with an obvious answer.
I'm voting Ahoppy because I have had a slight scum read on him for most of the day, but preferred the Eevee case. With Xeiron's info, I now prefer the Ahoppy lynch over the EFHW lynch.
Working against tonight's soft deadline, I think this is the viable lynch that gives us the best chance at catching scum. (ie, better than EFHW or mail-mi).
Ash, you are the only vote on EFHW, currently -- are you willing to lynch either mail-mi or Ahoppy, the other wagons?
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I suppose I'll claim at L-1, and when available. I defended myself in my previous post, and I don't think there is anything more I can say about it.
Here's a link to my defense
While I'm at it, I kinda want to make a case on chairs. This whole game (i know he has been vla, but still) he seems to mostly be sheeping other people or voting without giving much reason or just because he thinks he should. Right before he went VLA, he put down a vote for TA (post #673), seemingly just choosing one of the two in the TA/SB debacle. Granted, he did follow up with it later, but I think he could have taken his time and thought up some reasonable answers to why he voted the way he did, during his long absence. What I'm saying is, it doesn't sit well with me that he was willing to throw down his vote when he thought he was up against a deadline with no stated reasons for his vote other than (paraphrasing) "well I need to pick someone from this argument, so vote: Twistedarcher".
He does the exact same thing again when he had 3 wagons to choose from:
Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
Again with the "well I just have to pick someone, I don't have a good reason, but here's my vote".
he again comes back later when someone calls him out on it, and unvotes while he thinks about it. But still, the "well I just need to get my vote down without any reason" mentality feels scummy to me.
Other than his voting habits, his paper claim doesn't give him towncred in my book. Anything that appears to be easy towncred I would attribute with something scum would be willing to do. I don't think an unpressured claim neccesarily means scum in my book.
Additionally, when he does posts his reads, it is after most people have posted theirs and seems to be taking many bits from other people's reads with not as many original thoughts. I don't have data to back this up, but this is just my general impression. I could be completely wrong. but still.
I understand that chairs is probably not going to be the lynch for today. I'm not even sure that he is the right lynch, especially if we are giving xerion the chance to go through with his plan. So I'm not going to vote chairs. But be on the lookout for him in the future.
PPE: there were 19 posts made while I was writing this, so I'll go back and re-read those again and see what I think about all that and reply again
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Alright, I don't have much new from those 19 posts, but I think I could do a mail-mi lynch. Yes, his play feels like he did in mean girls, but with a little more participation. I thought eevee was scum as well, so I'm in the same boat as efhw, I don't really have anything...
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TA, if you feel so strongly that the day needs to end that you feel lynching town is completely acceptable and preferred to not, why not offer yourself up?
That's a silly question, with an obvious answer.
I'm voting Ahoppy because I have had a slight scum read on him for most of the day, but preferred the Eevee case. With Xeiron's info, I now prefer the Ahoppy lynch over the EFHW lynch.
Working against tonight's soft deadline, I think this is the viable lynch that gives us the best chance at catching scum. (ie, better than EFHW or mail-mi).
Ash, you are the only vote on EFHW, currently -- are you willing to lynch either mail-mi or Ahoppy, the other wagons?
2 votes on EFHW now.
I would switch to mail-mi if I had to. Not Ahoppy.
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Where is everyone? Is tonight actually a soft deadline or no? I am available tonight, so it works well for me
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I'm around, but I'm pretty comfortable with my vote. Definitely prefer you over Mail-mi and EFHW.
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What do you think of Nkirbit's interpretation of your information, and basing his read of you on that?
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vote: mail-mi
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What do you think of Nkirbit's interpretation of your information, and basing his read of you on that?
well, I still don't know what information he saw in my post that was revealing and showing him that I am town. Or why I would think that one-shot roles would cause you not to be able to do things with items. Why don't you think my reavealing info is towny any more nkirbit?
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What do you think of Nkirbit's interpretation of your information, and basing his read of you on that?
well, I still don't know what information he saw in my post that was revealing and showing him that I am town. Or why I would think that one-shot roles would cause you not to be able to do things with items. Why don't you think my reavealing info is towny any more nkirbit?
What gave him the town read is (I believe) that he felt you had information about x-shot roles, implying that you had a x-shot role. He felt that a town member would be more likely to have this role than a scum member. I don't necessarily agree with his assumption that town is more likely to have an x-shot role.
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Ah I see. I never said I don't have an x-shot role. I just said I didn't think they caused you to not be able to do anything with items.
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What do you think of Nkirbit's interpretation of your information, and basing his read of you on that?
well, I still don't know what information he saw in my post that was revealing and showing him that I am town. Or why I would think that one-shot roles would cause you not to be able to do things with items. Why don't you think my reavealing info is towny any more nkirbit?
What gave him the town read is (I believe) that he felt you had information about x-shot roles, implying that you had a x-shot role. He felt that a town member would be more likely to have this role than a scum member. I don't necessarily agree with his assumption that town is more likely to have an x-shot role.
This is correct.
I am around as well, and likewise comfortable with my vote on Ahoppy.
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Fair enough. I'm sorry, I don't know of anything I can say to change your guy's votes.
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Ahoppy, can you explain this contradiction? This first post is from #1402, your original defense:
Alright, sorry for my absence again, but real life trumps mafia, sorry. Anyways, thoughts while I was away:
Fair point, that chairs really hasn't done anything ultra towny besides his claim. I still see it as town, but I understand that you may not. Heck, he and xerion could have planned this together from the beginning to set up some crazy D1 fake claim. Far fetched? yeah, but still, gotta think of all the options. Another question though: If you're willing to lynch chairs, then you're also willing to let xerion not go through with his plan. so are you then willing to lynch xerion?
Your view on Chairs' claim there is that it's town. Yet recently, you decided to make a case on chairs, specifically saying:
Other than his voting habits, his paper claim doesn't give him towncred in my book. Anything that appears to be easy towncred I would attribute with something scum would be willing to do. I don't think an unpressured claim neccesarily means scum in my book.
Why did your view on this change, and what led you to make your case on Chairs?
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I've just thought about it more, and come to the conclusion that this could be a claim to get towncred. Earlier I was sheeping everyone else's thoughts that it was towny without giving it much thought.
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Vote Count 1.19
EFHW (2) ashersky, mail-mi
Eevee (1) theorel
AHoppy (5) shraeye, raerae, nkirbit, chairs, Twistedarcher
mail-mi (3) xeiron, Eevee, EFHW
Not Voting: (1) AHoppy
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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Arch where is Eevee's vote?
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AHoppy what do you think about voting mail-mi?
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I could go there, but I haven't gone back and re-read him yet... but I don't remember his play very much, nothing memorable jumps out (then again, 60 pages is a ton to remember). But seeing as he's really the only other option (i'm not feeling the EFHW lynch. I'm not as convinced on the scumslip as ash, and I don't see anything else scummy there) I can sheep this and Vote: mail-mi at the risk of committing the same crime I accused chairs of doing. But I don't see any other lynch besides myself going through, and I have 100% chance lynching town if I vote myself, and less than that if I vote mail-mi. So there we go.
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Post count: look at that. X, chairs, and theorelin the 10s to 20s, the next lowest being Ahops at 42. Chairs is vla. Theorel has a lot of content. X has no excuse.
I'm reading mail-mi now, and this comes off as an extremely odd accusation from mail-mi, especially since about 15 of his posts were pregame/RVS.
I am having concerns that all of his reads are the "easy ones", you know. Like, he immediately finds ash scummy for voting raerae without reason. He pressures eevee for being inactive early. he pressures xeiron for having a low post count. He chooses Xeiron as his re-read.
Individually, I don't have a problem with any of these things.. I think all are excusable, and things town members would do. But when we put them together, we have a trend of a player going for "easy" cases. This is troubling to me because it seems exactly what a mafia member would do... they want to get out and state opinions so no one can accuse them of lurking too much, but they're not going to go for harder reads because, well, they don't have to.
I also think Ahoppy is defending himself well. He hasn't immediately jumped on the other wagon (although he just did now), and is still looking into other parts of the game and trying to find scum. His defense somewhat reminds me of my own in B2B... it was the first time either of us have come under serious pressure, and I think we've reacted somewhat similarly.
Vote: mail-mi
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This puts mail-mi at 5 and ahoppy at 4, I believe. Arch, can you do another vote count? You missed Eevee last time, I want to be sure of where we stand.
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I think that's right. By my count, Eevee was on mail-mi. Now we need some more people to come back.
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Ok this should be good.
Vote Count 1.20
EFHW (2) ashersky, mail-mi
Eevee (1) theorel
AHoppy (4) shraeye, raerae, chairs, Twistedarcher
mail-mi (5) xeiron, Eevee, EFHW, AHoppy, nkirbit
Not Voting: (0)
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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So I re-read mail-mi (not much there...) the scummiest things I see are:
major lurking, even moreso than me. (mail-mi 59 posts, ahop 63), ok only by 4 posts, but when you consider that 8 posts were before the game started, and 7 posts were about ridiculous RVS and deli meats, that puts him around 44 posts. Whereas me: 3 posts pre-game and 1.5 posts about deli meats. putting me around 58 posts. add into this that mail-mi's posts are really short and not that helpful (as per usual mail-mi though...) and it doesn't look good to me. But that's not really enough to lynch him with since that's a known town!mail-mi thing (see mean girls and my case on him there).
But here, he also flips his vote around a lot and is sheeping a lot too. See recently, where he flips flops his vote around eevee and efhw (who he is presumably still re-reading). now let's look at his one meaty post:
Okay, I'm going to reread xeiron and all of his 9 whopping posts.
Yay for a new game.
First post, included for completeness (also because I don't want to take out a whole 1/9th of content.)
vote: raerae
Not RVS.
Nice explanation, Ash. Totally a compelling case.
I agree this is the most compelling case we have so I will sheep Ashersky and vote: Raerae.
I don't know if this vote is RVS or if he thinks ash is soft claiming an investigative role, and since ash has claimed that it was just to gauge reactions, and xeiron has yet to unvote, pretty scummy.
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
This is a wierd post that I don't get. Just because I don't understand it, slight scum read.
I still want to hear why Ashersky's post in any way implicates Raerae as scum - I must be missing something.
I am not sure if it was intentional but this could be seen as a softclaim:
Results? Hmmmm. Remember when I was scum and claimed I tracked mcmc and caught scum? That was awesome. Here's the thing; if folks had just listened to my hinting without forcing me to claim, we would have lynched scum a power role AND not outed a power role scum. So my general belief if to NOT claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you have to, even if you caught scum. Instead, just vote and make cases.
If you think it's a soft claim, why are you pointing it out? Now, if it's true, you've put Ash in a bad spot! I figured he was just speaking generally, but dang, you could be right, but I wish you hadn't have pointed it out.
I fail to see how I put Ashersky in a bad spot. Yes, He might be a PR, but since this is role madness there should be no shortage of power roles. If he has an investigative role and already know raerae is scum, I do think he should claim so sometime during D1. If he don't, and we lynch raerae based on softclaims/cases from Ashersky and she flips town, we won't know if he is scum or just mistaken town. Remember that in his exemple he flipped the alignments. Had we lynched mcmc in that game without ash needing to claim, we wouldn't have caught him(ash) as scum.
My general belief if to DO claim results from investigations/watching/tracking/etc. unless you do not have to, if you caught scum. We probably have one or more doctor/protection role so it is not instant death to claim cop.
I did point it out because it is the among the most interesting things I have found in this game by now, because it might mean Ashersky is building up for a claim. If he is, that claim may be a fake, just as likely as a real one. Ashersky just had huge success with preparing for and then fakeclaimimg as scum. He would probably consider doing something like that again.
Theory talk, null read.
We should not itemclaim any more, because itemclaiming is roleclaiming. That is, roleclaiming of our future roles. The OP says items combination do make sense and should not be easy to guess. Meaning if I say I have a first aid kit, but wish for medicine it is not hard to figure out I am/can become a doctor. We should avoid claiming roles at this point.
I think the best way to maximize powerroles is for everyone to send items they don't nead to their biggest townread.
I like the conclusion he comes to, so townish read here.
I have reread spiritbears and he seems to me like good old town spiritbears.
I have also got atownread on Theorel and Ashersky.
Null.
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I don't like the way he worded No. 2. "How can you be sure that there is exactly three scum?" can be interpreted more than one way. 1) there could be more than three scum, or the more incriminating 2) How do you know there's three scum (on my scum team)? One is more curious, one is more inquisitive (if you get what I mean). Slight scum read here.
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
So, from an impartial observer it should be ~58%. From a town player's perspective it's ~54.5%, and from scum's perspective they already know which it is. I wouldn't say 60% is far far too easily. I mean it's only ~5% more likely.
I apologize for my bad maths.
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
1. He didn't remove himself because he was presenting the case to other players, who don't for sure know that he's town. I can see that, although I disagree with it.
2. 3 scum is pretty standard for a game of this size, I think. I would guess 3 scum.
I have added Theorels post below where he originally calculates this.
1. He does not present his calculations to the other players, only the result in the form: more that 50% chance they are both town. So I am not convinced he would bother to put it in our perspective.
With the phrasing "given any 2 players at random" I agree it makes sense to include himself, but when he uses this to figure out whether efhw and shraeye are both town, it makes more sense not to.
The way he did it makes me think he was focused about calculating "any 2 players at random", not "EFHW - Shraeye". Could be because he is scum and thus not really scumhunting.
2.. I agree 3 scum is pretty standard. I would guess 3 scum as well. But when calculating something I would probably consider other scum distributions as well. Ta does so here:
Theorel are you sure on your numbers? I think assuming 3 scum it's about 55/45 that there's a scum. (9/12 * 8/11 of no scum). Higher if there's only 2 lower if 4. I think you are assuming fights are town v town far far too easily...
Theorel seems to be very sure that we are dealing with three scum since he do not address other possibilities.
In this case, that's spiritbears. And although I don't think it's by any means conclusive, he does come off scummier here (IMO) for adding fuel to the fire. It seems inherently scum-like to try to alienate players from each other if both are town. Doing so helps to ensure that town will not unite against you. OTOH if efhw-shraeye are not both town, then spiritbears (if scum) was either taking a position against a team-mate, or immediately alongside a team-mate. That I think looks relatively unlikely, scum would be more likely to just try to pull attention elsewhere in that case...perhaps pushing the town v. town angle. Since, at this stage, given any 2 players at random, they are more likely both town than either scum I'm going to go ahead with this making spiritbears slightly scummier (probably taking him just past neutral. Say scumScore=26).
Null read here.
X looks scummy for his analysis of Theorel's math - he says right there in the post why he didn't remove himself. Maybe xeiron didn't read carefully?
I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). The second one of those is obviously terrible. The first is arguable (it's not using all information available to me/any town player, but it is still an accurate calculation for an impartial observer).
I just noticed this post by Theorel, and I have some problems with it.
1. I wasn't removing myself, nor was I removing the first town player . The fact that you forgot to remove yourself makes me wonder if you do not automaticly see yourself as town.
2. (i.e. I was just doing (10/13)^2). How do you know for sure that there is exactly three scum?
I agree with this, and didn't pick up that theorel had put the reason right into his calculation post. I initially was just going to inform xeiron, that theorel is very calculating like this and likes for his calculations to come from an impartial position. But xeiron jumping on theorel without even fully reading the post really doesn't look good.
Vote: xeiron
I did read Theorel's post, and it reads to me that he did forget, not chose, to to exclude himself, but argues afterwards that it is no big deal (In contrast to not excluding the first person, which is just wrong math.). His post answering my case seems to support this.
I am, by the way, statisfied with his answer so I do not plan on pushing this further.
And this is his last post. You don't seem to be planning on pushing anything further.
Now, I know xeiron always looks scummy. But 9 posts in 27 pages?!?!?!?! And I think the scummy outweighs the towny, and he really needs to get back here. vote: xeiron.
the part where he says "I like the conclusion he comes to here, townread" feels a little strange to me. Just because you like the conclusion doesn't make it a townread. Scum is trying to make you like their thoughts as well. You need to look past the conclusion and look at the motivations behind what they are saying. Granted this is talking about theory talk and actually probably shouldn't give much of a read since it's just theory talk, and really this is a miniscule sticking point kind of feeling like ash's nitpicky scumslip he found on EFHW, but still. It's something that feels strange to me.
overall I think it's a pretty weak case on xerion, the biggest point being that he's a lurker (very much like himself). I would agree with others who have voiced this that it seems like he was being lazy and just picking the guy with the least posts to re-read and trying to make it look scummy. Also, mail-mi, for all the talk early game about you seeing ashersky as scummy, it did seem to die pretty quickly and you never really picked it up again. What have you thought about ashersky's play since the beginning of the game?
PPE:
nice catch nkirbit about his post count accusation. I would agree that mail-mi does just try to glide on by and find the easy way out. I think it's time to put some pressure on him and see how he reacts now. Although, it is getting up to that soft deadline we set...
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No no no no no!!! This is a bad lynch guys. I really do think mail-mi is town!
We've had four wagons so far. Eevee, EFHW, Xeiron, Ahoppy.
Now, all FOUR of these players are on Mail-mi's wagon. There's definitely some scum misdirection going on. I think I believe Xeiron's claim, so I really think this makes EFHW and Ahoppy look much more fishy. EFHW comes off fishier, since she's been a much larger proponent of moving to mail-mi.
I'd much rather lynch either Ahoppy or EFHW than mail-mi (and I'd rather lynch Ahoppy than EFHW still, but it's getting closer).
Mail-mi is a really easy wagon to push here. He's always scummy. Every time. Every game! Yes, he's sheeping, but I thought his case on Xeiron was good, and he came to genuine conclusions. This is the biggest part of my town read on him. When he did a re-read in another game as scum, it came off as incredibly ingenuine and forced to me, and that he already knew what his opinion was be. I didn't get that opinion on his reading of Xeiron whatsoever.
I am absolutely opposed to a mail-mi lynch. He's basically my strongest town read this game.
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I agree that Ahoppy's not really a "lurker" in this game -- he's got a lot of posts, it's not his fault we've gotten to 60 pages on D1!
That said, I think the case you just posted on mail-mi is pretty weak, and just summarizes "classic mail-mi". He's being run up here as the alternative lynch because scum need to vote someone else to relieve the pressure.
I am feeling more and more confident with my vote on Ahoppy.
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The fact is we have no idea who is scum. There is no compelling case on anyone. The AHoppy case is weak, the mail-mi case would be slam dunk on anyone except mail-mi, xeiron and Eevee are being given free passes. I am a very bad lynch. Maybe we should be looking at raerae, shraeye and Theorel. They've all been pretty low-profile, pop in now and then to say a few things. Maybe someone should do a reread of Ashersky. You fallen under some suspicion today. nkirbit and chairs?
At this point, I'd even vote xeiron. At least if he's town then we have an IC in Eevee.
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Ashersky and xeiron have combined to cost us days of going in circles. Ash's absurd case on me and xeiron letting me spend two days convincing everyone Eevee was scum. I've been hanging around all evening hoping to meet the deadline, but now I'm going to bed.
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Vote: mail-mi
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vote: xeiron. Getting this flip will move us forward the most.
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Xeiron's not getting lynched today, EFHW, I'm pretty sure. You had mail-mi at L-1. Why'd you move?
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vote: xeiron. Getting this flip will move us forward the most.
Votes an almost IC and claimed cop? Still not scummy?
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The move to xeiron from mail-mi looks to me like you ARE afraid that if (but really when, he's totally town) mail-mi flips town, you'll look scummy. At least if you're on Xeiron and he flips scum, you'll be able to say "but Nkirbit sounded really good, his case was good, Xeiron was sooo scummy, he didn't post his reads, he's assuming too many things, he's playing poorly". If you're scum, you have more outs and excuses for a Xeiron mislynch than a Mail-mi mislynch at this point.
So yeah, I think that switch is painting you as pretty scummy.
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Vote Count 1.21
EFHW (2) ashersky, mail-mi
Eevee (1) theorel
AHoppy (4) shraeye, raerae, chairs, Twistedarcher
mail-mi (5) xeiron, Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, ashersky
xeiron (1) EFHW
Not Voting: (0)
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
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Xeiron's not getting lynched today, EFHW, I'm pretty sure. You had mail-mi at L-1. Why'd you move?
Because I am so frustrated. I don't think mail-mi is a great lynch choice. I actually think voting him is about the same as a random lynch. I got on that wagon because I thought it could fly and because he contributes the least. But then I got to thinking that at least if xeiron is town we get something. He's already told us he used up his one-shot power. So what could his plan be? And his strange logic in Shakespeare and his refusal to give us the reasons for his hodge-podge of reads is making me not have much faith in his claim that he can solve the game.
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I don't really care about having "outs" for my votes. AHoppy is not going to go tonight either. Who are you going to switch to?
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Xeiron's not getting lynched today, EFHW, I'm pretty sure. You had mail-mi at L-1. Why'd you move?
Because I am so frustrated. I don't think mail-mi is a great lynch choice. I actually think voting him is about the same as a random lynch. I got on that wagon because I thought it could fly and because he contributes the least. But then I got to thinking that at least if xeiron is town we get something. He's already told us he used up his one-shot power. So what could his plan be? And his strange logic in Shakespeare and his refusal to give us the reasons for his hodge-podge of reads is making me not have much faith in his claim that he can solve the game.
No, I don't have faith in his plan at all. I don't expect it to come to much. That said, I think he's probably town, even though I'm frustrated with his play.
I think Ahoppy is the most likely and best alternative to mail-mi currently. But if it came to it, I'd probably vote almost anyone to avoid a mail-mi lynch.
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I'll be around tomorrow, so if it's still day in the morning we can revisit these issues.
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Xeiron's not getting lynched today, EFHW, I'm pretty sure. You had mail-mi at L-1. Why'd you move?
Because I am so frustrated. I don't think mail-mi is a great lynch choice. I actually think voting him is about the same as a random lynch. I got on that wagon because I thought it could fly and because he contributes the least. But then I got to thinking that at least if xeiron is town we get something. He's already told us he used up his one-shot power. So what could his plan be? And his strange logic in Shakespeare and his refusal to give us the reasons for his hodge-podge of reads is making me not have much faith in his claim that he can solve the game.
No, I don't have faith in his plan at all. I don't expect it to come to much. That said, I think he's probably town, even though I'm frustrated with his play.
I think Ahoppy is the most likely and best alternative to mail-mi currently. But if it came to it, I'd probably vote almost anyone to avoid a mail-mi lynch.
How about efhw?
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Ashersky and xeiron have combined to cost us days of going in circles. Ash's absurd case on me and xeiron letting me spend two days convincing everyone Eevee was scum. I've been hanging around all evening hoping to meet the deadline, but now I'm going to bed.
I cost us two days? Ridiculous.
I made a case but I didn't stop others. I'm still convinced on you. You are scum this game. If others will vote with me, I am back on you in a heartbeat.
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vote: mail-mi
I didn't read, and I'm not going to. I probably won't be around much today, I thought mail-mi was scum like 700 pages ago, and it looks like the lynch might actually go through. Can we just get this day over with already?
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vote: mail-mi
I didn't read, and I'm not going to. I probably won't be around much today, I thought mail-mi was scum like 700 pages ago, and it looks like the lynch might actually go through. Can we just get this day over with already?
That is L-1.
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I know this is probably going to make me look more scum (but hopefully you guys won't need me past N1) so I'll hammer.
Vote: mail-mi
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You didn't even let him defend himself!
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Argh! No! You guys are going to miss my electricity!
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I was Nikola Tesla. I had a 1-shot nexus that, the night I used it, it would fire everything used on me to a random person. I could give out electricity and lightbulbs.
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not scum then?
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Chairs why didn't you let mail-mi claim first?
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not scum then?
Nope.
Dang you chairs!
Ah well, at least the day is over.
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Ashersky and xeiron have combined to cost us days of going in circles. Ash's absurd case on me and xeiron letting me spend two days convincing everyone Eevee was scum. I've been hanging around all evening hoping to meet the deadline, but now I'm going to bed.
I cost us two days? Ridiculous.
I made a case but I didn't stop others. I'm still convinced on you. You are scum this game. If others will vote with me, I am back on you in a heartbeat.
I understand. But keep looking for "other" scum, too, ok? We can't afford to have you out of the picture focused solely on me.
I really thought Eevee was scum. I was completely flummoxed to find out he probably isn't. Now I have no idea who to suspect. After me, who is on your list of likelies?
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mail-mi did you get any items N0?
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thread locked.
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After constant arguing, deadly persuasions, and copy machines (you ended up using 60+ pages! Expensive!) it seemed like a player had been decided on.
A mob consisting of xeiron, Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, ashersky, theroel and chairs all ran into mail-mi's cubicle to see him tinkering with his Tesla Coil. "Why did you kill the CEO?" chairs. All mail-mi did was return a goofy grin. He had clearly spent a little too much time fiddling with his machine.
The mob all grabbed ahold of him and brought him to Archetype's office. They slammed the door upon and through mail-mi to the ground. "He's the one who killed the CEO!" They all yelled. Archetype couldn't believe it, he always thought Nikola Tesla was a good guy. But if the majority thought he was bad...
"Sorry, Nikola" Archetype said, pulling out a revolver and pressing it against the accused player's temple. "But it looks like you're fired".
And he pulled the trigger.
Vote Count 1.22 FINAL
EFHW (1) mail-mi
AHoppy (4) shraeye, raerae, Twistedarcher
mail-mi (7) xeiron, Eevee, AHoppy, nkirbit, ashersky, theorel, chairs
xeiron (1) EFHW
Not Voting: (0)
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch
6 to no-lynch
mail-mi otherwise known as Nikola Tesla the Town-aligned 1-shot Nexus has been lynched!
10 bankable days were used today. Tomorrow you'll have 4 free days before you start digging into you're remaining 11 days of bankable time.
Night 1 Start!
All nights will be 48-72 hours, depending on how quickly people get their actions in. Phase 2 of the night will begin once everyone has their actions in.
Thread (still) locked!
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The break room was a peaceful place, but everything changed when
the fire nation attacked it caught on fire. So I guess it could have been the fire nation. Ooh, I sense a flavored game idea coming on! 2 gunshots and then a big explosion were heard. Clouds of black smoke to puff out through the room's doors and windows. Several employees rushed in, some carrying fire extinguishers and others buckets of water from the water cooler. They splashed the water and sprayed the white foam to help douse the flames. Archetype did a head count and noticed that 3 people were missing!
After a few hours, the fire had started to subside and everyone waited for the smoke to clear. Next to the refrigerator they could see raerae otherwise known as Benjamin Franklin the Town-aligned Semi-Innocent Child. A bullet hole pierced her (his? Sorry, Benjamin) abdomen. The remains of EFHW's body was found behind her precious Cotton Gin. Half of her body was charred and morphed and her machine was much less distinguishable from a Cotton Gin. Looks like Eli Whitney's Bomb worked great!
Or had it? Lying on the ground in a crumpled heap just a few meters away was ashersky. A Revolver was held in what remained of his right hand and his upper body burned almost as badly as EFHW's. Looks like Samuel Colt, this 2-shot Vigliante, wasn't doing so hot (Well, his body was actually fairly warm - he had been on fire. But you know what I mean).
A slow, catchy beat began filling the room (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=los6obvBbqU), coming from EFHW's machine. It was actually fairly popular back in the day (but not back in her day). But how did she get her hands on it? Who knows, but it was definitely appropriate.
EFHW, ashersky, and raerae have most certainly been 'fired'.
Not Voting ( 8 ) Eevee, xeiron, Twistedarcher, chairs, shraeye, AHoppy, theorel, nkirbit
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have 4 days before you start digging into your banked time.
Day 2 start!
Thread Unlocked.
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Wait, so we're in MYLO, assuming 3 scum?
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So Ashersky shot EFHW, and EFHW blew up Ashersky. Raerae looks like the scum kill.
I noticed something about Xeiron that made me really, really suspicious over the night.
He attacked Theorel early on for assuming that there were exactly 3 scum, and praised me for including possibilities for 2 or 4 scum in my analysis.
YET, when naming his scum team that he "knew", or almost certainly knew (and btw, we now know 2/4 of his candidates were actually town), he named EXACTLY three people. Almost as if he knew that there's actually 3 people on the scum team!
Xeiron, please update us on your plan, if possible. Everything still on track?
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It seems like it.
Based on these results, I think shraeye is scum. Xeiron might be scum if we can't see some fruit to his plan soon. Or we might just all explode in a giant mess.
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It seems like it.
Based on these results, I think shraeye is scum. Xeiron might be scum if we can't see some fruit to his plan soon. Or we might just all explode in a giant mess.
Why?
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Here's the final wagon on mail-mi (a towny):
On wagon: Xeiron, Eevee, Ahoppy, Nkirbit, Theorel, Chairs
Off wagon: Twistedarcher, Shraeye
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I know this is probably going to make me look more scum (but hopefully you guys won't need me past N1) so I'll hammer.
Vote: mail-mi
I have an issue with this. This is the second anti-town action that Chairs has done this game, and we kind of excused the paper claim as, "Oh, he's newbie town and didn't realize what he's doing." But here, he realized exactly what he's doing, because he said "I know this is going to make me look more scum"... yet did it anyway! If you knew it was anti-town, why'd you do it?
Anyways, I still think Xeiron is scum, so Vote: Xeiron
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I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
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I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
I think we will find two scum off wagon.
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I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
I think we will find two scum off wagon.
Yes, yes, I know, you think I'm scum, you think Shraeye is scum.
But you still haven't told us why.
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Xeiron, please update us on your plan, if possible. Everything still on track?
[/quote]
My plan is a little reduced.
But five dead townies after N1 is not good.
It could still work though, but I am not sure how to take the next step.
We should consider no-lynch today.
If we are in mylo this could give us valuabe info before we have to lynch.
But if there are more than one kill tonight as well we can lose outright. I am not sure if we can risk that.
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Absolutely against no lynch. Yes, it helps us get rid of one mislynch possibility, but I'd rather another vote be in the hands of a town member at this point.
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Well, let's see...we just lost 2 parity-changing powers, vigilante and bomb.
That means we're probably down to defensive powers.
Assuming 3 scum, if we mislynch today, we'll have 4 town alive. If we assume we have only targeted defenses, then the defender needs to hit the target or firer in that group. That's a bit worse than 1/7 for a doctor, around 1/7 for a roleblocker, and let's say around 1/4 for a jailkeeper. (doctor will fail if it's the target, jailkeeper has the same problem if it misses the shooting scum, so it's not quite 2/7).
But, then there might be some passive or nearly-passive defenses, like a commuter, hider, or bulletproof-ness. By tonight someone might have an invented defensive-power to use as well.
I'm doubtful we'll have much in the way of useful offensive powers that can restore parity once we lose it. I think we should lynch today, because if we're wrong we can still be in the game (if scum's kill fails). Whereas if we no lynch, we probably lose someone we weren't planning on lynching anyways and then if we mislynch we pretty much lose. (recovering from 50-50 might be impossible with what we have left)
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Here's the final wagon on mail-mi (a towny):
On wagon: Xeiron, Eevee, Ahoppy, Nkirbit, Theorel, Chairs
Off wagon: Twistedarcher, Shraeye
It's crazy having one of those categories have only 2 players. But there were like 4 wagons at the end of yesterday. Could scum have happened to be all on one? Hmm...if so, then there are 3 scum among: xeiron(started the wagon), Eevee("cleared" by xeiron from an alternative wagon), AHoppy (another alternative wagon), Nkirbit, and chairs (the quick-hammer).
If the scum-team were xeiron, Eevee, and AHoppy, all 3 were under suspicion as potential lynch candidates. AHoppy and xeiron were avoiding the efhw lynch, but that was kind of before the other wagons really took off. At that stage though, surely they would have just bussed. I mean, town would never suspect AHoppy if Eevee flipped scum, because we always discount the possibility of multiple day-1 wagons all being scum. So, I'm inclined to disbelieve that particular set.
So, it would need to not include AHoppy, but then why did xeiron go to all the trouble of starting up a mail-mi wagon and "copping" Eevee. By which I mean, why not just join the AHoppy wagon (Eevee also). If there's no other scum there, it seems excessive/dangerous to go to all that work to steer clear of the wagon. So, that means that IF there's no scum off the mail-mi wagon, then the scum team seems most likely to be AHoppy, Nkirbit, and chairs. I think it's much MORE likely that there is scum in the TwistedArcher-shraeye pairing, and probably 2 more on the mail-mi wagon.
So, I think it's in our best interests to lynch one of them. I had some suspicions of shraeye before, but I don't remember his actions at the end of the day as particularly scummy.
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If Ahoppy is scum, I'm really suspicious of Theorel and Chairs, and possibly Nkirbit as well, as his partners.
Basically, their reasoning for pushing the Mail-mi lynch through, rather than the Ahoppy lynch, seemed to be that we just really needed to get a lynch in. Fine, I agree, that's definitely true. But Ahoppy ended the day at 4 votes, and when Theorel hopped on the mail-mi wagon, he could have just as easy hopped on the Ahoppy wagon to get us closer to a lynch at the end of the day (yes, it's 5 votes against 6 for theorel and then 5 votes against 7 for chairs). But that's an easy excuse to avoid lynching a potential partner (Ahoppy) and instead getting on the bandwagon of a town. Nkirbit could have also just as easily joined the Ahoppy wagon as the Mail-mi one, especially when his reason for not voting Ahoppy turned out to not be a reason at all, but instead also joined the mail-mi wagon.
I'm still pretty certain that there was scum misdirection leading to the mail-mi wagon, and that at least one partner decided to hop on to the case.
Mail-mi always gets suspicion for playing that way. Every game, yet this game, the wagon picked up steam D1. I'm definitely sure that's because scum were avoiding one of the alternative lynches, meaning one of the alternative lynches is scum. That could be either Eevee or Ahoppy -- if it's Eevee, once again I'd rather lynch Xeiron. But I'm sure that that was a scum-driven wagon (of course, I'm helped by the fact that I know there were 2 scum on wagon).
Scum's NK was also off-wagon, not on-wagon.
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At this point it seems to me very likely that I shall not be able to make my case without revealing quite a bit about myself that may or may not be beneficial for town to know.
Do I go for the reveal and explain why I think I'm right about my suspicion of shraeye? I don't know what the appropriate play is here, so I'm willing to take suggestions from the crowd.
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Depends on how firm your suspicion is. If you're pretty dang sure that he's scum, I'd say it's worth it.
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Depends on how firm your suspicion is. If you're pretty dang sure that he's scum, I'd say it's worth it.
I'm taking a bit of a leap, but not too much and it would fit with theme.
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Depends on how firm your suspicion is. If you're pretty dang sure that he's scum, I'd say it's worth it.
I'm taking a bit of a leap, but not too much and it would fit with theme.
I can't really give you any better advice that what I just did. Ultimately, it's a judgement call on your side -- you have to weigh the upside of catching scum vs. the downside of revealing. If all revealing is going to do is make you a NK target, then it's probably not too bad. If it could break the game for scum, though, it might not be worth it.
Given that we're in MYLO, I'd say anything to help catch scum is beneficially. If you're unsure, and you think we're lynching to lose the game, absolutely say what you have to say.
It's a judgement call that you can answer better than anyone else, ultimately.
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The game is afoot, let's see how this plays out then.
I am a sharing flavor cop.
Due to the deaths that have happened so far this game, it is my strong suspicion that shraeye is scum, as we lynched Tesla (a townie) and Shraeye is his rival, Edison. It would fit, thematically, for rival geniuses IRL to be rival geniuses in-game, and therefore I posit that shraeye is the scum of Menlow Park.
Vote: Shraeye
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Well, I was hoping you had something stronger than that :(
It makes sense, I'll grant you, but that's really just flavor speculation. I'm already suspicious of Shraeye, but this doesn't paint him any more scummier than he already is. On the other hand though, I guess there's really not much harm in revealing your role to scum at this point..
I remember Ahoppy saying earlier on that if you designed this game, you would totally make Edison scum, but not Tesla. Ahoppy, what's with that? Was it just a joking statement, or was there some game-related information behind it.
Shraeye, can you confirm / deny that you are Edison?
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When you cop someone, you merely get their flavor name, and not their alignment?
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When you cop someone, you merely get their flavor name, and not their alignment?
Correct.
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And you've only copped once, why?
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And you've only copped once, why?
I have copped more than once. I don't have an argument to make based on the other results yet, though I suppose I -could- share them, it may or may not behoove town for me to do so.
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Edit: replace "though" with "and although".
Also for some reason I thought we'd been through a third night, but as we've only been through 2 nights I only have one additional result.
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I received this message last night.
It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Another reason why I think Xeiron is scum. Does it make sense for pen to be in the game, when we already have a telephone, that would presumably be used for sending messages? What else can pen be used for? Do we think there are multiple combinations that create a mailman?
At some point in the near future, I'm going to go recap all of the reasons why I think Xeiron is scum.
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Does that necessarily make Xeiron scummy, though? He could have just been assuming, knowing that paper's in the game, that combining pen and paper create a mail-man like power (which is a reasonable assumption). We know that paper's in the game, if Xeiron's role is something completely unrelated to communication devices (which is a fair assumption, given that he asked for paper + pen), how does requesting paper + pen paint him scummy?
If I'm correct, the reason that you find Xeiron scummy out of this is that you know that telephone's in the game, and because of that, you believe pen's not in the game. But Xeiron wouldn't know that, or know of the existence of a telephone -- he would have just been making an assumption (which we know town Xeiron does).
I agree that pen's probably not in the game. But I don't see how this makes Xeiron scummy.
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Xeiron at one point said, "I have reason to believe that pen is in the game." And I don't think his reason was that paper is in the game. But he refused to elaborate on his reasoning, just like he refused to elaborate on any of his reads (which turned out to be incorrect, btw... both mail-mi and EFHW were town!).
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He specifically said he "might or might not" have more reason to believe it's in the game than the rest of us.
Xeiron, why are you being so dang shady about everything, especially your reads? Can you please get your reads out here? I'm going to find you scummy until you actually post your reads and defend them.
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Ok, say pen's not in the game, yet Xeiron claimed he believed it was.
Does this make him scummy? Or just mistaken town yet again?
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He specifically said he "might or might not" have more reason to believe it's in the game than the rest of us.
Xeiron, why are you being so dang shady about everything, especially your reads? Can you please get your reads out here? I'm going to find you scummy until you actually post your reads and defend them.
Agreed, this is kind of scummy.
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Using Theorel's suggestion to go and look at some notable wagons from yesterday. Here's the positions of the alive players on each wagon. Note, this is just votes, not opinions -- I'm sure there's many cases of someone finding a player scummy yet having their vote somewhere else, not being around in the time a wagon formed and dissolved, etc.
Mail-mi final wagon:
On wagon: Xeiron, Eevee, Ahoppy, Nkirbit, Theorel, Chairs
Off wagon: Twistedarcher, Shraeye
Xeiron wagon at height:
On wagon: Shraeye, Nkirbit, Theorel
Off wagon: TA, Eevee, Ahoppy, Chairs
Eevee wagon at height:
On wagon: Ahoppy, theorel, Twistedarcher, nkirbit, Chairs (Chairs and nkirbit both hopped on-and-off the wagon at several points)
Off wagon: Shraeye, Xeiron
EFHW wagon:
Only alive person on wagon was Eevee
Ahoppy wagon at height:
On wagon: Shraeye, Nkirbit, Chairs, TA
Off wagon: Theorel, Xeiron, Eevee
Interesting things to note --
The Eevee wagon at its height was really interesting -- it got up to 5 votes, went down a little bit, went back up to 6, had an unvote, went to 6 again, and then finally Xeiron's claim after intent to hammer. This could either be unsure town (Chairs has been jump with his vote, as has Nkirbit), or scum trying to ride a fine line between making sure their partner survives and making sure they're on the right side of the lynch if Eevee flips town.
Apart from EFHW, nkirbit was on every wagon of the day, and Chairs was on every one except for Xeiron (and I think he may have missed this one due to being in Chicago?). Theorel was on every wagon except for EFHW and Ahoppy.
Shraeye was off wagon for the two wagons with the most supporters (Mail-mi and Eevee). This could make sense in the context of scum trying to make sure there's at least 1 scum off-wagon for any potential mislynch.
The only wagon Xeiron was on was mail-mi, which was consistent with his idea of a mail-mi - TA - Shraeye scum team.
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I stayed off the Xeiron wagon so we could try his paper+pen thing.
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How likely do you think a Xeiron/Shraeye/Nkirbit scumteam might be? They couldn't have expected the mass death of town last night, so the Xeiron wagon (which looked pretty certain not to pass based on the "I have a plan" gambit) would be a safe place to look towny if Xeiron flipped scum after his "plan" fell through (this is just assuming scum!Xeiron).
Just musing, but the concept intrigues me. I'm certainly not sold on that team, as it were.
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It could be, but I'd doubt we'd find the scum team that easily. We have little to no chance of actually naming the correct team right now. Certainly interactions are helpful, but I think our best bet it to zero in on one scummy person (who could have plausible partners, though), and then hopefully lynch scum today and look at interactions tomorrow. We aren't required to name a scum team today, just to find one member of the team.
Just curious though, why Nkirbit/Shraeye instead of Theorel? Theorel was also on Xeiron's wagon.
Also, to be fair, I also thought Xeiron was scummy, but my vote was parked on Spiritbears during that entire ordeal.
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Xeiron's plan is probably moot, anyways. It'll be N2 when he writes someone, and then N3 when that person can actually execute the plan, D4 for the results and by that point if we're still playing we'll have much better information to go off of, given that we'd probably have lynched scum D2 and D3 if there's a D4.
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I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
This is pretty silly. People keep relying on scum conveniently splitting themselves up, and people rely on this all the time when doing voting analysis. You can bet that if I'm scum, I'm instructing my partners to all be on-wagon or off-wagon. Every time. Seriously, people take this on/off split as bible, and anytime that sort of analysis happens, scum can just manipulate the heck out of it.
The game is afoot, let's see how this plays out then.
I am a sharing flavor cop.
Due to the deaths that have happened so far this game, it is my strong suspicion that shraeye is scum, as we lynched Tesla (a townie) and Shraeye is his rival, Edison. It would fit, thematically, for rival geniuses IRL to be rival geniuses in-game, and therefore I posit that shraeye is the scum of Menlow Park.
Vote: Shraeye
Yeah, I'm Edison. I didn't know that he was Tesla's rival, but now that I do, a certain thing makes a lot more sense. Arch built that rivalry into the game (maybe intentionally, maybe not), but not in a scum/town style.
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I received this message last night.
It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Another reason why I think Xeiron is scum. Does it make sense for pen to be in the game, when we already have a telephone, that would presumably be used for sending messages? What else can pen be used for? Do we think there are multiple combinations that create a mailman?
At some point in the near future, I'm going to go recap all of the reasons why I think Xeiron is scum.
This was one thing that I was worried about. I know what an item I was given night 0 does (the person who gave it to me knows what it does too, I assume...don't claim anything regarding it). It seems like an innocuous thing to ask for, but the power it gives would be really dangerous in scum hands. It's pretty great for town, which is why I'm intentionally not saying anything.
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It could be, but I'd doubt we'd find the scum team that easily. We have little to no chance of actually naming the correct team right now. Certainly interactions are helpful, but I think our best bet it to zero in on one scummy person (who could have plausible partners, though), and then hopefully lynch scum today and look at interactions tomorrow. We aren't required to name a scum team today, just to find one member of the team.
Just curious though, why Nkirbit/Shraeye instead of Theorel? Theorel was also on Xeiron's wagon.
Also, to be fair, I also thought Xeiron was scummy, but my vote was parked on Spiritbears during that entire ordeal.
I'm not necessarily discounting Theorel, but he did suggest the vote counting (which you just completed). That seems a bit towny to me.
Shraeye just for some reason hits my gut reaction meter, and the theme doesn't help his case for me. Nkirbit seemed like a likely candidate based on my concept of the on-wagon/off-wagon game, particularly if Xeiron's actually scum.
I have tomorrow off work, so I'll try to slog through our massive threadnaught here to reread Shraeye as he's the one with the blinky red light in my head right now.
I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
This is pretty silly. People keep relying on scum conveniently splitting themselves up, and people rely on this all the time when doing voting analysis. You can bet that if I'm scum, I'm instructing my partners to all be on-wagon or off-wagon. Every time. Seriously, people take this on/off split as bible, and anytime that sort of analysis happens, scum can just manipulate the heck out of it.
The game is afoot, let's see how this plays out then.
I am a sharing flavor cop.
Due to the deaths that have happened so far this game, it is my strong suspicion that shraeye is scum, as we lynched Tesla (a townie) and Shraeye is his rival, Edison. It would fit, thematically, for rival geniuses IRL to be rival geniuses in-game, and therefore I posit that shraeye is the scum of Menlow Park.
Vote: Shraeye
Yeah, I'm Edison. I didn't know that he was Tesla's rival, but now that I do, a certain thing makes a lot more sense. Arch built that rivalry into the game (maybe intentionally, maybe not), but not in a scum/town style.
Is this something you can clarify? Role Madness is certainly not my forte, so I'm willing to admit that there's potential for weirdness I simply don't get.
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Yeah, I'm Edison. I didn't know that he was Tesla's rival, but now that I do, a certain thing makes a lot more sense. Arch built that rivalry into the game (maybe intentionally, maybe not), but not in a scum/town style.
Is this something you can clarify? Role Madness is certainly not my forte, so I'm willing to admit that there's potential for weirdness I simply don't get.
It isn't something I can clarify.
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I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
This is pretty silly. People keep relying on scum conveniently splitting themselves up, and people rely on this all the time when doing voting analysis. You can bet that if I'm scum, I'm instructing my partners to all be on-wagon or off-wagon. Every time. Seriously, people take this on/off split as bible, and anytime that sort of analysis happens, scum can just manipulate the heck out of it.
The game is afoot, let's see how this plays out then.
I am a sharing flavor cop.
Due to the deaths that have happened so far this game, it is my strong suspicion that shraeye is scum, as we lynched Tesla (a townie) and Shraeye is his rival, Edison. It would fit, thematically, for rival geniuses IRL to be rival geniuses in-game, and therefore I posit that shraeye is the scum of Menlow Park.
Vote: Shraeye
Yeah, I'm Edison. I didn't know that he was Tesla's rival, but now that I do, a certain thing makes a lot more sense. Arch built that rivalry into the game (maybe intentionally, maybe not), but not in a scum/town style.
In what way does a town-town "rivalry" make sense? I mean yeah yeah, it's RMM and all that jazz, but that seems strongly to me like it'd be scum-town rather than town-town (obviously I have less information than you do)
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
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Rivalry is chairs' word, that I used as well. What I mean to say is that, knowing that Tesla and Edison have a RL connection helps me understand something.
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Rivalry is chairs' word, that I used as well. What I mean to say is that, knowing that Tesla and Edison have a RL connection helps me understand something.
Ok, cool.
But why even post this if you're immediately going to say that you can't say what it is?
If it helps you understand something, that's great if you're town, but if it's something you can't say, I don't know why you'd make the post. Posting "I learned something, but I can't tell you guys what it is!" just smells of manipulation to me.
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Rivalry is chairs' word, that I used as well. What I mean to say is that, knowing that Tesla and Edison have a RL connection helps me understand something.
Ok, cool.
But why even post this if you're immediately going to say that you can't say what it is?
If it helps you understand something, that's great if you're town, but if it's something you can't say, I don't know why you'd make the post. Posting "I learned something, but I can't tell you guys what it is!" just smells of manipulation to me.
What do you think you're being manipulated into? I'm not saying "oh hey, I know something; let's all vote chairs...just trust me, I can't explain." If I'm manipulating you, I need a purpose, so tell me what my dastardly plan is?
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It could just be you trying to get town cred. I'm not saying you have a master plan, but that I think that's a more likely comment to come from scum than from town.
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I received this message last night.
It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Another reason why I think Xeiron is scum. Does it make sense for pen to be in the game, when we already have a telephone, that would presumably be used for sending messages? What else can pen be used for? Do we think there are multiple combinations that create a mailman?
At some point in the near future, I'm going to go recap all of the reasons why I think Xeiron is scum.
This was one thing that I was worried about. I know what an item I was given night 0 does (the person who gave it to me knows what it does too, I assume...don't claim anything regarding it). It seems like an innocuous thing to ask for, but the power it gives would be really dangerous in scum hands. It's pretty great for town, which is why I'm intentionally not saying anything.
This is odd to me. You're essentially saying, "I have this great power, but I'm not going to tell you what it is!" If you have a "great power", you want to keep quiet about it so you aren't the NK and you get to use it, yet you chose to say you had it. I agree with TA that it's odd that you said this.. there are plenty of reasons not to say this if you're town, so why did you say it?
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I believe Chairs, btw, but I don't buy that his claim is necessarily a towny one. It seems like there would be a lot of utility in scum for figuring out flavor claims for players, given that from what we've seen, flavor seems to be a giveaway for items. I don't know what utility it has for town, other than confirming or disproving claims.
If I were scum and Chairs was as well, I'd absolutely tell him to keep up the newbie-vibe, saying that the paper claim got him town cred, and the hammer might have as well. I'd keep up the charade and tell him to claim this early in D2. So that could be what's happening here, with the quick claim that doesn't really tell us anything about Shraeye's scumminess.
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My big worry about Chairs was his hammer, and the part where he said he knew it was scummy but did it anyway. It felt like a player trying to play up his newness rather than a new player making a mistake. Just the feeling I got from it.
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I received this message last night.
It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Another reason why I think Xeiron is scum. Does it make sense for pen to be in the game, when we already have a telephone, that would presumably be used for sending messages? What else can pen be used for? Do we think there are multiple combinations that create a mailman?
At some point in the near future, I'm going to go recap all of the reasons why I think Xeiron is scum.
This was one thing that I was worried about. I know what an item I was given night 0 does (the person who gave it to me knows what it does too, I assume...don't claim anything regarding it). It seems like an innocuous thing to ask for, but the power it gives would be really dangerous in scum hands. It's pretty great for town, which is why I'm intentionally not saying anything.
This is odd to me. You're essentially saying, "I have this great power, but I'm not going to tell you what it is!" If you have a "great power", you want to keep quiet about it so you aren't the NK and you get to use it, yet you chose to say you had it. I agree with TA that it's odd that you said this.. there are plenty of reasons not to say this if you're town, so why did you say it?
There is a key mischaracterization in your post here; based on how nit-picky you read AHoppy's post that we were talking about day1, I'm suspicious of how quickly you paint me as scummy instead of hearing what I'm actually saying. I didn't say that I currently have a great power. Maybe I never got it, maybe I did; maybe I used it already, maybe I didn't.
Based on what I know, I am very sure of the towniness of a particular player (it would be too powerful if scum had this item to start with, i suspect), and I hope that player knows their power.
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Hm, interesting. I guess I was misunderstanding. I guess I read "I was given this item", "The power that item gives is pretty great for town" and assumed you had the power, which I don't think is an unreasonable conclusion to make. But if it doesn't work that way, fair enough.
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Now that we are starting claiming I think we are ready for a organised mass claim.
I want us to claim popcorn style in three rounds.
First I want everyone to declare who they sent items to.
Second I want everyone to claim items they have gotten.
Third I want everyone to claim what other powers they have used.
I am fine with starting.
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Not participating in that.
Even if we lynch scum today we have two more scum to catch. Pretty sure your plan just gives scum the roadmap to victory.
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Do you not want us to claim roles, either?
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Not at all okay with Xeiron's idea. If we're going to mass claim, I want Xeiron to explain his plan first. Giving out info about exactly which items are in the game just gives him more and more ways to make his plan look legitimate. If his plan's legitimate, I want him to explain it before we claim.
That being said, not sure I want to claim at this point. I will think about it.
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I agree with TA/nkirbit...claiming is the wrong move here. If we mislynch, our one hope is protective roles. Unless a claim is going to for sure out scum, we need to have the potential to recover from a mislynch.
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Sorry, I'm on mobile right now so this will probably be brief.
TA: the crack I made earlier about Edison/Tesla was a joke, nothing more. I have no more information about it.
That being said, I already had a bad feeling about chairs yesterday, and today it hasn't gotten any better. Question: xerion, did you receive paper last night?
So, chairs this game has been playing up his newbieness quite a lot. Mostly to make moves he thinks could be mistakes. I feel like after doing it once, he would have gotten shy and not repeated any more bold moves that could upset people. But he hasn't, which leads me to think this is a scum ploy to make us think he's confused newbie town. The hammer really did it in for me. I mean, he didn't even give mail mi a chance to claim or defend himself. He was able to secure a mislynch and avoid a lot of suspicion a vet might get doing the same thing. I'm not willing to give chairs a newbie pass any longer. Vote: chairs
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
I can't say for sure what TwistedArcher is thinking of, but xeiron claimed an innocent cop result on Eevee when Eevee was at L-1. What are the chances that a scum xeiron would make a cop claim in order to exonerate a townie? I mean, he was chancing a counter-claim (although I don't know what the chances would be of cop and tracker), which just seems a little much to chance purely for town-cred in my mind. The more I think about it, the more likely I find it that they're both town or both scum.
Some part of me is leaning towards both town at this point, but on the other hand, I feel like scum has perhaps been playing these "out-there" games where they tie themselves together with one another and so avoid being lynched (a la Eevee/yuma in Mean Girls...supporting fake claims can be hard to find suspect). I'm not sure if this bears out, but it would explain why we're ending up with either scum wins or town wins flawlessly situations lately. Hmm...I think I'll stick with leaning town at least for the risk xeiron took in the claim.
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
Xeiron picked eevee as his cop target
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
I can't say for sure what TwistedArcher is thinking of, but xeiron claimed an innocent cop result on Eevee when Eevee was at L-1. What are the chances that a scum xeiron would make a cop claim in order to exonerate a townie? I mean, he was chancing a counter-claim (although I don't know what the chances would be of cop and tracker), which just seems a little much to chance purely for town-cred in my mind. The more I think about it, the more likely I find it that they're both town or both scum.
Some part of me is leaning towards both town at this point, but on the other hand, I feel like scum has perhaps been playing these "out-there" games where they tie themselves together with one another and so avoid being lynched (a la Eevee/yuma in Mean Girls...supporting fake claims can be hard to find suspect). I'm not sure if this bears out, but it would explain why we're ending up with either scum wins or town wins flawlessly situations lately. Hmm...I think I'll stick with leaning town at least for the risk xeiron took in the claim.
Agree that this is a crazy ploy. But I think that's pretty consistent with Xeiron's play in recent games.
They're probably linked together, but not definitely. I think it's a mistake to say that one's flip will all but reveal the alignment of the other -- I could see Xeiron as scum claiming that he copped Eevee. You're right about it being very risky with tracker/watcher, though.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Changed your tune a bit... didn't you just want a no lynch? And what do you mean by "lynch tonight", we lynch during the day, scum kills at night. Unless you're a vig, but ours died...
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Right. But here's the problem:
Say we massclaim. If we catch a liar (which I'm not convinced we would), great. If we don't, then it doesn't help us.
But say we do lynch scum today. We still need to survive two more nights. We've let scum know every item in the game, and every power in the game. That just can't be good. They'll probably be able to get really awesome items to destroy town in subsequent nights.
The only way this works is if a massclaim could catch out all 3 scum, and at this point, I'm doubtful that it would even catch one -- scum must have been provided fakeclaims, or just be people such as Edison who you can't identify as scum by their name. Or by their items.
Say Shraeye really is scum, and he's Edison. What about this claim implicates him as scum? I just don't think this really has any utility in catching scum.
I'm really interested to be proven wrong, and would love to hear your views on this, but I don't think the utility of a massclaim outweighs the possibility that it won't catch scum, and that revealing every item in the game to scum would be a complete disaster.
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What gives scum oppurtunity to make good fakeclaims is when we leak information unsystematicly. This is why I have not said anything more about the pen and paper yet. I will when we mass-claim.
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Oh, you weren't talking about items, not flavor.
But, town probably almost certainly sent scum some items. Can't they just be truthful about what they've received, and not be implicated? The only thing that would implicate scum is tradition roles such as watcher/tracker, and I don't know how item claims would implicate scum.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Changed your tune a bit... didn't you just want a no lynch? And what do you mean by "lynch tonight", we lynch during the day, scum kills at night. Unless you're a vig, but ours died...
I meant today.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Right. But here's the problem:
Say we massclaim. If we catch a liar (which I'm not convinced we would), great. If we don't, then it doesn't help us.
But say we do lynch scum today. We still need to survive two more nights. We've let scum know every item in the game, and every power in the game. That just can't be good. They'll probably be able to get really awesome items to destroy town in subsequent nights.
The only way this works is if a massclaim could catch out all 3 scum, and at this point, I'm doubtful that it would even catch one -- scum must have been provided fakeclaims, or just be people such as Edison who you can't identify as scum by their name. Or by their items.
Say Shraeye really is scum, and he's Edison. What about this claim implicates him as scum? I just don't think this really has any utility in catching scum.
I'm really interested to be proven wrong, and would love to hear your views on this, but I don't think the utility of a massclaim outweighs the possibility that it won't catch scum, and that revealing every item in the game to scum would be a complete disaster.
Mislynching would be a complete disaster.
Giving scum item knowledge does not make us loose automaticly.
I am trying my best to not tell scum how best fakeclaim, but i guess i could say that I excpect to find five townies, not three scum.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Changed your tune a bit... didn't you just want a no lynch? And what do you mean by "lynch tonight", we lynch during the day, scum kills at night. Unless you're a vig, but ours died...
Ahoppy is correct that this is a really interesting change from no-lynch to lynching by all means necessary.
How does your plan fit in the context of this massclaim?
I agree with Nkirbit, that if we're massclaiming, I 100% absolutely want Xeiron to claim and detail his plan first. I will never claim anything this game until Xeiron's plan has been unveiled, as I am starting to think there's just nothing there.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Right. But here's the problem:
Say we massclaim. If we catch a liar (which I'm not convinced we would), great. If we don't, then it doesn't help us.
But say we do lynch scum today. We still need to survive two more nights. We've let scum know every item in the game, and every power in the game. That just can't be good. They'll probably be able to get really awesome items to destroy town in subsequent nights.
The only way this works is if a massclaim could catch out all 3 scum, and at this point, I'm doubtful that it would even catch one -- scum must have been provided fakeclaims, or just be people such as Edison who you can't identify as scum by their name. Or by their items.
Say Shraeye really is scum, and he's Edison. What about this claim implicates him as scum? I just don't think this really has any utility in catching scum.
I'm really interested to be proven wrong, and would love to hear your views on this, but I don't think the utility of a massclaim outweighs the possibility that it won't catch scum, and that revealing every item in the game to scum would be a complete disaster.
Mislynching would be a complete disaster.
Giving scum item knowledge does not make us loose automaticly.
I am trying my best to not tell scum how best fakeclaim, but i guess i could say that I excpect to find five townies, not three scum.
And why would we take your word for it?
You have yet to provide us reads, or your plans, and you're asking us to basically put the game into your hands. Yet you have done nothing to provide a town read, and I'm absolutely not trusting the game with someone who I don't even have a townread on (and the fact that I think your are going to come up with a scumread on me after claiming because that's what you already think, regardless of the massclaim, because thats your set-in-stone view, doesn't help matters).
If you want us to trust you, you need to actually put your reads and reasons out there, and make us believe you're town. It reads like you're wanting to get all this information out there, and then you are aiming to conform your "plan" around the claims, to implicate townies as scum.
I think there's less downside to claiming your plan than to claiming the sucm. At worst, you're scum, who doesn't have a plan. At best, I think you're confused townie, who strongly overestimated what he would be able to do (and you saying that your plan was sidetracked, or whatever you said), just confirms that this is the worst possible outcome to me, which isn't really that bad. If you're advocating item claiming, anyway, and you have already claimed your role, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be okay claiming your plan.
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claiming the sucm = claiming items (I guess, not really sure what I was going for honestly, but yea let's go with items)
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Right. But here's the problem:
Say we massclaim. If we catch a liar (which I'm not convinced we would), great. If we don't, then it doesn't help us.
But say we do lynch scum today. We still need to survive two more nights. We've let scum know every item in the game, and every power in the game. That just can't be good. They'll probably be able to get really awesome items to destroy town in subsequent nights.
The only way this works is if a massclaim could catch out all 3 scum, and at this point, I'm doubtful that it would even catch one -- scum must have been provided fakeclaims, or just be people such as Edison who you can't identify as scum by their name. Or by their items.
Say Shraeye really is scum, and he's Edison. What about this claim implicates him as scum? I just don't think this really has any utility in catching scum.
I'm really interested to be proven wrong, and would love to hear your views on this, but I don't think the utility of a massclaim outweighs the possibility that it won't catch scum, and that revealing every item in the game to scum would be a complete disaster.
Mislynching would be a complete disaster.
Giving scum item knowledge does not make us loose automaticly.
I am trying my best to not tell scum how best fakeclaim, but i guess i could say that I excpect to find five townies, not three scum.
And why would we take your word for it?
You have yet to provide us reads, or your plans, and you're asking us to basically put the game into your hands. Yet you have done nothing to provide a town read, and I'm absolutely not trusting the game with someone who I don't even have a townread on (and the fact that I think your are going to come up with a scumread on me after claiming because that's what you already think, regardless of the massclaim, because thats your set-in-stone view, doesn't help matters).
If you want us to trust you, you need to actually put your reads and reasons out there, and make us believe you're town. It reads like you're wanting to get all this information out there, and then you are aiming to conform your "plan" around the claims, to implicate townies as scum.
I think there's less downside to claiming your plan than to claiming the sucm. At worst, you're scum, who doesn't have a plan. At best, I think you're confused townie, who strongly overestimated what he would be able to do (and you saying that your plan was sidetracked, or whatever you said), just confirms that this is the worst possible outcome to me, which isn't really that bad. If you're advocating item claiming, anyway, and you have already claimed your role, there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't be okay claiming your plan.
I second this. I'm not sure anyone trusts you right now xerion, so we aren't going to follow any plans until you can prove they will be useful...
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
I can't say for sure what TwistedArcher is thinking of, but xeiron claimed an innocent cop result on Eevee when Eevee was at L-1. What are the chances that a scum xeiron would make a cop claim in order to exonerate a townie? I mean, he was chancing a counter-claim (although I don't know what the chances would be of cop and tracker), which just seems a little much to chance purely for town-cred in my mind. The more I think about it, the more likely I find it that they're both town or both scum.
Some part of me is leaning towards both town at this point, but on the other hand, I feel like scum has perhaps been playing these "out-there" games where they tie themselves together with one another and so avoid being lynched (a la Eevee/yuma in Mean Girls...supporting fake claims can be hard to find suspect). I'm not sure if this bears out, but it would explain why we're ending up with either scum wins or town wins flawlessly situations lately. Hmm...I think I'll stick with leaning town at least for the risk xeiron took in the claim.
Agree that this is a crazy ploy. But I think that's pretty consistent with Xeiron's play in recent games.
They're probably linked together, but not definitely. I think it's a mistake to say that one's flip will all but reveal the alignment of the other -- I could see Xeiron as scum claiming that he copped Eevee. You're right about it being very risky with tracker/watcher, though.
I mean, it's super clear that Eevee flipping scum --> xeiron is scum. Xeiron town -->Eevee town. If xeiron is scum, then there is room for discussion about if he would save a towny or a scummate. I suspect that Eevee is scum, if xeiron is.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game.
I don't think claiming items is the key to winning here. Do you expect to catch somebody lying? I've been scum in plenty of RMM games before. I was scum in RMM3, which Archetype quotes in the Setup-post
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*).
I was also scum in Mafia Noir. In those, my scumteam was 100% ready for claims at any point in the game (in RMM3, we even had fake-claims typed up and pre-made night 0 or possibly it was night 1); we won both of them. In RMM3, it was despite a massclaim, where I claimed my actual role with only slight edits. In Mafia Noir, claiming made the game really easy for scumteam. Me and my partner Insom even claimed first, and they still couldn't read through our fakeclaims.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game.
I don't think claiming items is the key to winning here. Do you expect to catch somebody lying? I've been scum in plenty of RMM games before. I was scum in RMM3, which Archetype quotes in the Setup-post
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*).
I was also scum in Mafia Noir. In those, my scumteam was 100% ready for claims at any point in the game (in RMM3, we even had fake-claims typed up and pre-made night 0 or possibly it was night 1); we won both of them. In RMM3, it was despite a massclaim, where I claimed my actual role with only slight edits. In Mafia Noir, claiming made the game really easy for scumteam. Me and my partner Insom even claimed first, and they still couldn't read through our fakeclaims.
Besides, I think flavor cop would be a good role for scum to have. It doesn't seem like a very powerful role, so even if chairs claim is true, I still think he could be scum
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Vote Count 2.0
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (1) chairs
chairs (1) AHoppy
Not Voting (5) Eevee, xeiron, Twistedarcher, shraeye, theorel,
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have 3 days before you start digging into your banked time.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game.
I don't think claiming items is the key to winning here. Do you expect to catch somebody lying? I've been scum in plenty of RMM games before. I was scum in RMM3, which Archetype quotes in the Setup-post
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*).
I was also scum in Mafia Noir. In those, my scumteam was 100% ready for claims at any point in the game (in RMM3, we even had fake-claims typed up and pre-made night 0 or possibly it was night 1); we won both of them. In RMM3, it was despite a massclaim, where I claimed my actual role with only slight edits. In Mafia Noir, claiming made the game really easy for scumteam. Me and my partner Insom even claimed first, and they still couldn't read through our fakeclaims.
Besides, I think flavor cop would be a good role for scum to have. It doesn't seem like a very powerful role, so even if chairs claim is true, I still think he could be scum
I suppose at this point all I can do is profess my towniness. I'm a chum, let's lynch scum.
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Chairs, if Xeiron is scum, what do you think of the (likely, in my mind) possibility that Eevee is his scumbuddy?
I don't recall what Eevee has done, offhand, that was scummy, and trying to reread anybody in this is just driving me insane. Are there any points in particular that you're thinking of?
I can't say for sure what TwistedArcher is thinking of, but xeiron claimed an innocent cop result on Eevee when Eevee was at L-1. What are the chances that a scum xeiron would make a cop claim in order to exonerate a townie? I mean, he was chancing a counter-claim (although I don't know what the chances would be of cop and tracker), which just seems a little much to chance purely for town-cred in my mind. The more I think about it, the more likely I find it that they're both town or both scum.
Some part of me is leaning towards both town at this point, but on the other hand, I feel like scum has perhaps been playing these "out-there" games where they tie themselves together with one another and so avoid being lynched (a la Eevee/yuma in Mean Girls...supporting fake claims can be hard to find suspect). I'm not sure if this bears out, but it would explain why we're ending up with either scum wins or town wins flawlessly situations lately. Hmm...I think I'll stick with leaning town at least for the risk xeiron took in the claim.
Agree that this is a crazy ploy. But I think that's pretty consistent with Xeiron's play in recent games.
They're probably linked together, but not definitely. I think it's a mistake to say that one's flip will all but reveal the alignment of the other -- I could see Xeiron as scum claiming that he copped Eevee. You're right about it being very risky with tracker/watcher, though.
I mean, it's super clear that Eevee flipping scum --> xeiron is scum. Xeiron town -->Eevee town. If xeiron is scum, then there is room for discussion about if he would save a towny or a scummate. I suspect that Eevee is scum, if xeiron is.
Agree on the first two, that's 100%. Not sure if Eevee would be scum if Xeiron is, but we can cross that bridge when we get to it -- there's absolutely positively no way that Eevee should be lynched today, or any day that Xeiron is alive.
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game.
I don't think claiming items is the key to winning here. Do you expect to catch somebody lying? I've been scum in plenty of RMM games before. I was scum in RMM3, which Archetype quotes in the Setup-post
This is also one of those games where claiming, if not done smartly, can easily be abused by scum (*cough* me in RMM3 *cough*).
I was also scum in Mafia Noir. In those, my scumteam was 100% ready for claims at any point in the game (in RMM3, we even had fake-claims typed up and pre-made night 0 or possibly it was night 1); we won both of them. In RMM3, it was despite a massclaim, where I claimed my actual role with only slight edits. In Mafia Noir, claiming made the game really easy for scumteam. Me and my partner Insom even claimed first, and they still couldn't read through our fakeclaims.
Besides, I think flavor cop would be a good role for scum to have. It doesn't seem like a very powerful role, so even if chairs claim is true, I still think he could be scum
I agree that it's a great role for scum, given that flavor -> items from everything we've seen. Seems to have more utility for scum than for town, actually.
I'm a little confused by the claim on Shraeye, honestly. It doesn't implicate him in anyway, just because Edison and Tesla were rivals.
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I'm a little confused by the claim on Shraeye, honestly. It doesn't implicate him in anyway, just because Edison and Tesla were rivals.
Are you saying that you think chairs just tried to use the claim to push a quick mislynch at MYLO? I really don't buy that. Chairs didn't push me super-hard, and he didn't claim it was slam-dunk evidence. I think he's just working hard with the information he has, and that feels very towny to me.
What I don't like is that chairs-case is being pushed by AHoppy, who was the other viable wagon yesterday, when mail-mi lynch seemed like it popped up out of nowhere.
I remember people poo-pooing the AHoppy case, because they thought they could do much better than lynching a lurker. And then out of nowhere everybody seemed to be ok with lynching mail-mi. What was the case on him other than lurking and just being mail-mi? That xeiron was pushing him?
Anyway, all that is to say that my day1 suspicions of AHoppy still persist. I need to work on a serious reread taking into account the flips before I can really roll up my sleeves.
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Oh, I agree, the case on mail-mi was terrible, and taking things mail-mi always does and painting them scummy. And I maintain that there's scum misdirection, and Ahoppy is very possibly suspicious of that. In that case, Nkirbit, theorel, or chairs would be his partner, who moved the lynch away from Ahoppy. If Ahoppy's innocent, then the Xeiron-Eevee pair becomes much more suspicious for moving that lynch.
As to chairs, like I said before, if I were chairs' partner (if he's scum), I'd tell him to keep pushing the newbie-vibe, and this fits right along with that. It's very possible that this claim was planned as a way to get chairs more town credit, since people would have the exact reaction you just posted.
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Chairs and nkirbit were both on the Ahoppy wagon at certain points, while Theorel never once was. So given what I just talked about, Theorel would be the most likely scum partner for Ahoppy, his vote on mail-mi came at a key, key, point where a vote on Ahoppy could have easily pushed us in that direction.
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I'm going to outline exactly why I think Xeiron is scum. I'm going to start with a bit of background, since not everyone here played or followed Shakespeare, I assume:
In Shakespeare, Xeiron was town, and during day 1, claimed to know that one of three players was scum. He was pushed on how he knew this, and ultimately it was revealed he got the information entirely from knowing that in the game, there was a lover-cop. His jumps in logic were bad, he came to a bad conclusion, but ultimately, he was town.
I think that coming into this game, Xeiron had to look at how he played Shakespeare, and if he wanted to play Shakespeare. There, he got himself and his lover lynched, and town very easily could have lost. If he's town, I think he is going to change how he plays, because how he played in Shakespeare ended up in disaster. I've seen a lot of people defending Xeiron because "He's playing similarly to how he played in Shakespeare", but I think scum!Xeiron is the one with the incentive to play similarly to how he played in Shakespeare. If he's scum, he knows that in Shakespeare he was mislynched for making ridiculous claims, so in a sense he's more free to make ridiculous claims, because he knows that people associate such claims with town!Xeiron. I think scum!Xeiron has more incentive to act like Xeiron from Shakespeare than does town!Xeiron. And I don't think acting like how Xeiron is acting here is an accident... he's being deliberately shady.
Furthermore, there are two key differences between Xeiron here and Xeiron in Shakespeare. In Shakespeare, Xeiron was not under pressure when he claimed, but he was here. Also, in Shakespeare, Xeiron's claims all dealt with information, while Xeiron's claims here are absurd. In addition to his claimed 1-shot cop power, he has claimed to be able to protect himself at night, and has reason to believe that there is a pen in the game.
A quick note on the pen thing: I don't think there is a pen in the game. All of the items we've seen so far are either somewhat completed machines (Phonograph, Telephone), or versatile items that could have many uses (electricity, paper). Pen doesn't fit here. It's only possible use (that I can think of) would be with paper, and we already have a Telephone that fulfills that role. Xeiron never explicity said why he thinks it exists... In #1042, all we get is, "I might or might not have more reason than the rest of you to think it exists." If he doesn't have more reason, I don't see what town!Xeiron benefits from saying that.. he's being deliberately cryptic, in an over-the-top way. I get the sense that he's not being cryptic to protect information... but he's being that way just to be that way.
Then we get to his "reads". He says that he has it narrowed down to four scum: TA, EFHW, Shraeye, Mail-Mi. When asked to explain his reads, he replied with "no". What???? You know who has an incentive to explain their reads? Town! So we don't mislynch! You know who has an incentive to not explain their reads? Someone who doesn't actually have them!
I really feel that Xeiron tried to get out of initial pressure by mimicking his play in Shakespeare, and once he realized that no one (other than me) found him that scummy for it, continued to turn up the ridiculousness. His play got more and more anti-town as the day went on. Without explanation, he said that there he had narrowed the scum team down to four possible players (two of whom have flipped town, btw!). He made ZERO attempts to working towards a correct lynch. His only contribution in terms of scumhunting was directing us towards mail-mi, who we now know is town.
I think it's suspicious that the items he claimed he needed were paper, which had already been revealed, and pen, which is the item most associated with paper. Isn't that awfully convenient?
Furthermore, the timeframe of Xeiron's plan doesn't make any sense! He's asking for pen and paper night one. Okay, so suppose he gets them N1. He immediately constructs the items, cool. So he now has a communication device. He may or may not have his investigative roles N1. Either:
1. He has his "investigative roles" N1: He uses them, and gets his results. He either lives to Day2, at which point he shares his results publicly with the thread, or dies N1, at which point he's dead. He doesn't get a chance to share his results with his communication device.
2. He doesn't have his "investigative roles" N1: Okay, so he's presumably going to have them during Night2. But, he won't have his results until the end of N2! He can write during N2, but he doesn't have his results yet, so what good can it do him? He's already missed his chance to write another player!
If Xeiron's communication device is to be used to pass on his results, it can still be used for something else, right? In fact, Xeiron states as a possibility: "I am trying to make a communication device so that someone else will get my information and be able to carry out my plan in case I should die." We know the information part doesn't make any sense, so does the instruction part? No! You're a 1-shot cop, as you've claimed, so any utility you provide will ultimately come from your items! How are you going to give your items to someone else? And even if you have some on-death role which allows you to give your items to a player of your choice when you die, they're not going to be able to use them until N3. So it's going to be a long time before they're able to get any results.
Xeiron's plan just doesn't make any sense. He's going out of his way to be shady and cryptic, he's been extremely unhelpful, has explicitly refused to explain his (incorrect) reads. Every single action he has taken in this game has been anti-town. Every single one! What makes more sense in this case? An extremely mistaken town member, or a scum member who knows he has a meta of acting similarly to this and is taking it to the next level because he is confident he won't be found scummy for it? I certainly know which one I think it is.
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TA:
So, if we then add in nkirbit's argument in favor of Xeiron being scum, what do you think of the odds of a theorel/Ahoppy/Xeiron case?
Because nkirbit makes a pretty good argument, here. And I agree that it's possible that the tesla/edison rivalry doesn't necessarily implicate shraeye as scum - since we haven't hit any mafia yet, it's hard to guess at their overall theme.
unvote
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Then we get to his "reads". He says that he has it narrowed down to four scum: TA, EFHW, Shraeye, Mail-Mi. When asked to explain his reads, he replied with "no". What???? You know who has an incentive to explain their reads? Town! So we don't mislynch! You know who has an incentive to not explain their reads? Someone who doesn't actually have them!
I really feel that Xeiron tried to get out of initial pressure by mimicking his play in Shakespeare, and once he realized that no one (other than me) found him that scummy for it, continued to turn up the ridiculousness. His play got more and more anti-town as the day went on. Without explanation, he said that there he had narrowed the scum team down to four possible players (two of whom have flipped town, btw!). He made ZERO attempts to working towards a correct lynch. His only contribution in terms of scumhunting was directing us towards mail-mi, who we now know is town.
Yes, xeiron's scumreads included mail-mi and EFHW, who both were town. But what seems even stranger to me is that despite being wrong about those two, he continues to think that he's spot-on with the other two reads.
I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
I think we will find two scum off wagon.
When new info comes to light, I feel like I need to synthesize it, and reassess my previous ideas. Xeiron's just running full speed ahead.
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Nkirbit,
I get where you're coming from. Everytime you talk about Xeiron, it makes a lot of sense. Yes, his play has been anti-town, absolutely, without a doubt, and he's making assumptions that he shouldn't make. Not explaining his reads is scummy, and I will always have him at or near the top of my scum reads until he explains them.
That being said...
My head is telling me over and over that he's scum fooling me, and it's SO obvious, but I really have a gut feeling he's town, and this is just how he plays. I feel like this argument against Xeiron is similar to the mail-mi argument, in a lot of ways -- it's a player who has a playstyle that's scummy and different relative to the norm of F.DS. Mail-mi's scummy playstyle is the main reason he got lynched, and I don't think lynching Xeiron for having a scummy playstyle is a good idea.
Two points in your case that I have disagreements with:
1) Your contention that Xeiron's claim came under pressure here, but not in Shakespeare, is just not true. I remember, it was actually you who called Xeiron out for the same thing in Shakespeare that you're calling him out for here. The contention that the claim here was different is not true, I think.
2) The magnitude of the pen issue. From Xeiron's point of view, not having a writing power (assuming but I think this is obviously true), asking for a pen + paper to write, when you're unaware of the telephone existing, is a pretty natural thing. If Xeiron's plan, no matter how misguided, required writing, you'd want to search for a writing instrument. Knowing paper exists in the game, assuming Pen + Paper = Writing apparatus is a pretty natural jump.
I think Xeiron was being purposely cryptic with the "might or might not" phrasing. (And really, Xeiron, I think you should stop being purposely cryptic, especially if you're being town. It doesn't help us find scum, and if you're town, that's what you want us to do!) But I don't read it as him asserting that pen is absolutely in the game, and I don't know why it not existing would make Xeiron scummy. Sure, it would make it so that Xeiron made another assumption that turned out to be untrue, but that doesn't make him scummy!
If Xeiron's town, he wasn't the attempting NK. Now, it's simply possible that scum were afraid he was bulletproof or could block a kill or whatever, as he claimed, or that they didn't want Eevee to be possibly confirmed as an IC. Or, it's possible he was left alive for WIFOM reasons, and as a viable lynch candidate, and that scum were planning on coming after him D2.
In that case, if Xeiron's town, I'd expect him to be pushed on by scum today.
Of course, it's possible Xeiron is simply alive because he's scum. But my gut tells me he's town. Nkirbit's case makes a lot of sense, but I disagree with the central tenet. I really do believe that this is simply how Xeiron plays, unrelated to alignment, and mislynching him based on playstyle would be a mistake, especially given that's exactly what we did with mail-mi.
All that being said, Xeiron, if you could pleaseeeeeee stop being so cryptic and actually help town with what the rest of us are trying to do instead of what you're trying to do, that would be great. I know you don't trust me, but it's really in town's benefit if you play more openly and less cryptically, both in terms of scumhunting, and in terms of us getting a town read on you if you really are town.
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TA:
So, if we then add in nkirbit's argument in favor of Xeiron being scum, what do you think of the odds of a theorel/Ahoppy/Xeiron case?
Because nkirbit makes a pretty good argument, here. And I agree that it's possible that the tesla/edison rivalry doesn't necessarily implicate shraeye as scum - since we haven't hit any mafia yet, it's hard to guess at their overall theme.
unvote
Well, my most recent post should make my thoughts on that clear. But I don't think that's the team! Although the first two wouldn't surprise me.
I find it fishy that you're continually naming teams, though. It's as if you're giving people three targets to choose from that aren't you!
Do you think all 3 scum were on wagon for mail-mi?
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Then we get to his "reads". He says that he has it narrowed down to four scum: TA, EFHW, Shraeye, Mail-Mi. When asked to explain his reads, he replied with "no". What???? You know who has an incentive to explain their reads? Town! So we don't mislynch! You know who has an incentive to not explain their reads? Someone who doesn't actually have them!
I really feel that Xeiron tried to get out of initial pressure by mimicking his play in Shakespeare, and once he realized that no one (other than me) found him that scummy for it, continued to turn up the ridiculousness. His play got more and more anti-town as the day went on. Without explanation, he said that there he had narrowed the scum team down to four possible players (two of whom have flipped town, btw!). He made ZERO attempts to working towards a correct lynch. His only contribution in terms of scumhunting was directing us towards mail-mi, who we now know is town.
Yes, xeiron's scumreads included mail-mi and EFHW, who both were town. But what seems even stranger to me is that despite being wrong about those two, he continues to think that he's spot-on with the other two reads.
I'm automatically suspicious of Shraeye simply due to bandwagon analysis. Assuming Shraeye is town means that all 3 scum were on the wagon, which is something I don't think they'd do D1.
I think we will find two scum off wagon.
When new info comes to light, I feel like I need to synthesize it, and reassess my previous ideas. Xeiron's just running full speed ahead.
If Xeiron's town, he wasn't the attempting NK. Now, it's simply possible that scum were afraid he was bulletproof or could block a kill or whatever, as he claimed, or that they didn't want Eevee to be possibly confirmed as an IC. Or, it's possible he was left alive for WIFOM reasons, and as a viable lynch candidate, and that scum were planning on coming after him D2. In that case, if Xeiron's town, I'd expect him to be pushed on by scum today.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
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Xeiron had one vote on him when he claimed having set up info in Shakespeare. He had four votes, and momentum, when he claimed here. I don't understand how my claim that Xeiron was under pressure here but wasn't in Shakespeare is "just not true"... can you elaborate? Because it seems to me to be very true.
Go reread Xeiron's posts day one of Shakespeare, and re-read him here. They have a very, very different feel to them.
In Shakespeare, we had posts such as: "The reason I am voting for you is mostly setup speculation. I find it highly likely that at least one of you, TwistedArcher and eevee are scum. I have a town-read on eevee, so I will not vote for him. I would still lynch Twisted if anyone would support me. If not, it has to be you.
I will not elaborate on this topic before a massclaim."
Here, Xeiron is making poor jumps of logic. But he's explaining what he's doing, as much as he can without claiming. And even after his claim, we see scumhunting from him. He lists pros and cons for lynching Sudgy, asks TA questions, and considers the other fake claims. Obviously I have the benefit of knowing he was town during that game, but at no point would I describe any of his actions "anti-town", where he is screaming with anti-town in this game.
I don't think this is similar to the mail-mi case. That was a bad lynch, and you're right in that a lot of our case was bad due to the fact that mail-mi is somewhat naturally scummy. But I'm not advocating a Xeiron lynch because he's naturally scummy. I'm advocating it because he's scummy here, in this game!
Seriously, if you have the interest, re-read Xeiron day1 in this game and day1 in Shakespeare... there's not many posts either way. But the tones are drastically different, in my opinion, which is why I'm not buying the "naturally scummy" defense.
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Xeiron got up to four votes, and immediately says "Don't lynch me guys! If you don't lynch me, I have this awesome power that can almost assuredly win the game for us!" and when questioned about the timing of the claim, says, "I just didn't think about it until then!" That seems convenient, doesn't it?
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Okay, so I reread xeiron Day1 in shakespeare. I can see where nkirbit is coming from, xeiron seemed much more forthcoming with his reads in shakespeare, and definitely offered up his setup speculation stuff with minimal pressure. There he offered it up outright because of the pressure, here he had 4 votes and momentum, and then just ignored it and offered up the speculative plan. I think, if anything, that's a major difference between the two, here he's never acknowledged that anyone was interested in lynching him.
So earlier I analyzed xeiron as part of a 3-person team all on the mail-mi lynch, and I think that it's unlikely. I can see a xeiron-eevee-shraeye or xeiron-eevee-twistedarcher team. I don't think it necessarily has to be one of those, but it sufficiently explains why xeiron went somewhere other than AHoppy after saving partner-eevee. (If we ignore the possibility of a scum-xeiron saving town Eevee from certain mislynch).
Of course, given shraeye or twistedarcher as scum, there are a lot of pairs available on-wagon, largely depending on who might be bussing. Let's see:
What could we say about pairings on-wagon given that shraeye OR twistedarcher is scum?
Eevee+anybody other than xeiron is impossible (excepting godfather shennanigans).
xeiron+anybody other than Eevee seems very unlikely to me (others disagree somewhat, but I'm going to discount those possibilities for the moment).
AHoppy+chairs: this would imply a strong bus by AHoppy right now, it feels somewhat unnecessary...(although I did suggest a possibility for an AHoppy, nkirbit, chairs team, and he could be just distancing.)
I haven't looked back to see, but I don't see anything disallowing those other pairs. That would leave (from my perspective):
xeiron-eevee
nkirbit-chairs
AHoppy-nkirbit
Now, those aren't the only POSSIBLE pairings, but I do think those are the likeliest pairings. Given that, actually, an on-wagon lynch doesn't seem quite as terrible as it did.
I would rather lynch nkirbit or xeiron if we lynch on-wagon, as it seems exceedingly likely that one of them is scum. Of those two, I would far rather lynch xeiron.
BUT
I think the off-wagon lynch is probably better still. I feel more confident in the assumptions made to remove the full scum-team from being on-wagon than the assumptions made to eliminate possible pairs on-wagon.
So far the only cases being built are on-wagon. Do people think all 3 scum are on-wagon, or are you just confident enough that your chosen target is scum that you'd rather ignore the other possibilities?
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Also, I'd like to hear from Eevee...hey Eevee, where are you?
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So earlier I analyzed xeiron as part of a 3-person team all on the mail-mi lynch, and I think that it's unlikely. I can see a xeiron-eevee-shraeye or xeiron-eevee-twistedarcher team. I don't think it necessarily has to be one of those, but it sufficiently explains why xeiron went somewhere other than AHoppy after saving partner-eevee. (If we ignore the possibility of a scum-xeiron saving town Eevee from certain mislynch).
I don't understand why those teams would sufficiently explan why xeiron didn't go to AHoppy.
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Well, the central concept here is that (scum)xeiron saved (scum)Eevee, and decided to push an alternate lynch. (just to make sure we're starting from the same set of assumptions).
For some reason he avoided the AHoppy lynch. Why?
1. Ahoppy is a scum-buddy. This is possible, although I think he'd have been better off hammering Eevee in that instance. The town-cred he would gain, and the town-cred AHoppy would gain would be great. There's also the idea that maybe giving town-cred to alternate lynches day1 when scum is lynched is actually valid, which makes the xeiron-eevee-Ahoppy combo unlikely.
2. A scumbuddy was already pushing that lynch. I was taking the group possible for this to be shraeye + twistedarcher, due to the final wagons, since off-wagon = on AHoppy for what we have alive. However, I hadn't looked back, and doing so changes things.
Actually looking back, AHoppy was at 5 before xeiron started the mail-mi wagon (I didn't really realize this before). Those 5 included nkirbit and chairs. So, my previously analysis was faulty. Actually xeiron-eevee-nkirbit/chairs can make sense for an all-3 on-wagon situation. If xeiron was trying to avoid clumping onto the wagon together with scum-mates, but his scum-mate followed him instead of staying away, that could easily have happened.
So, that reduces my confidence in the 1 scum must be off-wagon situation. Xeiron could easily have been trying to avoid being on a town-lynch that he found likely to go through. Hmm...I'll need to reconsider things then.
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To clarify: I think that scum wanting not to join their scum-mates on a town-wagon is sufficient explanation for a scum-xeiron avoiding the AHoppy wagon. So, shraeye/twistedarcher as scum is still sufficient. But nkirbit/chairs as scum is also sufficient. I'm not analyzing those scum-teams from other perspectives.
In particular, an nkirbit-eevee-xeiron team seems pretty unlikely given the way nkirbit has pushed for a xeiron lynch.
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For the record, I like the case on xerion. I feel like he is probably the most likely to flip scum so I'm willing to vote/lynch him, but I really would like some kind of defense from him first. And "just trust me, I got this" ain't gonna cut it x.
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I think xeiron's weird behavior is adding up, but I don't see why on earth he would save me like that, if he was scum. Otoh 1 shot copping me during the day (?? when did this happen??) sounds weird too, and it could all be for town cred. Robz chose me as his fake investigation target in back to basics, maybe I'm the kind of person who defends people who defend him.
I think we can start eliminating teams, others have already noted some, I'd like to add chairs-shraeye to the list of unlikely scum partners as it seems like unlikely chairs would bring up his investigation result for no reason.
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TA:
So, if we then add in nkirbit's argument in favor of Xeiron being scum, what do you think of the odds of a theorel/Ahoppy/Xeiron case?
Because nkirbit makes a pretty good argument, here. And I agree that it's possible that the tesla/edison rivalry doesn't necessarily implicate shraeye as scum - since we haven't hit any mafia yet, it's hard to guess at their overall theme.
unvote
Well, my most recent post should make my thoughts on that clear. But I don't think that's the team! Although the first two wouldn't surprise me.
I find it fishy that you're continually naming teams, though. It's as if you're giving people three targets to choose from that aren't you!
Do you think all 3 scum were on wagon for mail-mi?
1) I agree, your recent post made that clear as day.
2) As far as naming teams, I'm getting a lot of benefit from understanding your opinion on why each team would or would not work. Perhaps not so useful for this game, but long-term I'm learning quite a bit about the current f.ds meta from the responses and it's helping me work towards better opinions. I don't have any major gut-check in this game saying "this guy is definitely scum" and that's what I rely on, so this is basically how I scumhunt - by throwing something out there and reading the reflections on my statement from others, until somebody says something that clicks in my head.
3) I think that because f.ds meta currently says you should try 1 on, 2 off or 2 on, 1 off, that it's more likely than not that a very well-played scum team was either all-on or all-off. We've done quite a bit of team theory today over the idea that scum wasn't all on any given wagon, so if I were scum I'd be whole hog on the wagons up until today.
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Xeiron had one vote on him when he claimed having set up info in Shakespeare. He had four votes, and momentum, when he claimed here. I don't understand how my claim that Xeiron was under pressure here but wasn't in Shakespeare is "just not true"... can you elaborate? Because it seems to me to be very true.
Go reread Xeiron's posts day one of Shakespeare, and re-read him here. They have a very, very different feel to them.
In Shakespeare, we had posts such as: "The reason I am voting for you is mostly setup speculation. I find it highly likely that at least one of you, TwistedArcher and eevee are scum. I have a town-read on eevee, so I will not vote for him. I would still lynch Twisted if anyone would support me. If not, it has to be you.
I will not elaborate on this topic before a massclaim."
Here, Xeiron is making poor jumps of logic. But he's explaining what he's doing, as much as he can without claiming. And even after his claim, we see scumhunting from him. He lists pros and cons for lynching Sudgy, asks TA questions, and considers the other fake claims. Obviously I have the benefit of knowing he was town during that game, but at no point would I describe any of his actions "anti-town", where he is screaming with anti-town in this game.
I don't think this is similar to the mail-mi case. That was a bad lynch, and you're right in that a lot of our case was bad due to the fact that mail-mi is somewhat naturally scummy. But I'm not advocating a Xeiron lynch because he's naturally scummy. I'm advocating it because he's scummy here, in this game!
Seriously, if you have the interest, re-read Xeiron day1 in this game and day1 in Shakespeare... there's not many posts either way. But the tones are drastically different, in my opinion, which is why I'm not buying the "naturally scummy" defense.
Hm. You're right. I remembered a post by you saying "Why did you wait to claim this now??", but I guess that was before Xeiron started to get pressure, but after the TA wagon and during the Sudgy wagon. You're also correct on the anti-townness of Xeiron in this game relative to that one.
Scum only need one more mislynch to win this game, regardless of whether it takes place today or tomorrow, right?
If that's true, scum bussing the crap out of Xeiron, and then turning on town!Eevee would make a lot of sense as a viable move. So if we lynch Xeiron today and he flips scum, we should be really wary of voting Eevee the next day, as it could have been a setup.
Without bussing, assuming 3 scum we'd need all five town to lynch a scum member. So it's pretty likely that if scum flips, there was bussing involved.
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I think xeiron's weird behavior is adding up, but I don't see why on earth he would save me like that, if he was scum. Otoh 1 shot copping me during the day (?? when did this happen??) sounds weird too, and it could all be for town cred. Robz chose me as his fake investigation target in back to basics, maybe I'm the kind of person who defends people who defend him.
I think we can start eliminating teams, others have already noted some, I'd like to add chairs-shraeye to the list of unlikely scum partners as it seems like unlikely chairs would bring up his investigation result for no reason.
Pretty sure he copped you N0, not D1.
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TA:
So, if we then add in nkirbit's argument in favor of Xeiron being scum, what do you think of the odds of a theorel/Ahoppy/Xeiron case?
Because nkirbit makes a pretty good argument, here. And I agree that it's possible that the tesla/edison rivalry doesn't necessarily implicate shraeye as scum - since we haven't hit any mafia yet, it's hard to guess at their overall theme.
unvote
Well, my most recent post should make my thoughts on that clear. But I don't think that's the team! Although the first two wouldn't surprise me.
I find it fishy that you're continually naming teams, though. It's as if you're giving people three targets to choose from that aren't you!
Do you think all 3 scum were on wagon for mail-mi?
1) I agree, your recent post made that clear as day.
2) As far as naming teams, I'm getting a lot of benefit from understanding your opinion on why each team would or would not work. Perhaps not so useful for this game, but long-term I'm learning quite a bit about the current f.ds meta from the responses and it's helping me work towards better opinions. I don't have any major gut-check in this game saying "this guy is definitely scum" and that's what I rely on, so this is basically how I scumhunt - by throwing something out there and reading the reflections on my statement from others, until somebody says something that clicks in my head.
3) I think that because f.ds meta currently says you should try 1 on, 2 off or 2 on, 1 off, that it's more likely than not that a very well-played scum team was either all-on or all-off. We've done quite a bit of team theory today over the idea that scum wasn't all on any given wagon, so if I were scum I'd be whole hog on the wagons up until today.
Fair enough :)
Well, we know that a 3-man scum team wasn't all off, so that would leave all on. Personally I know that we have at least 2 scum on, and possibly 3, depending on SHraeye's alignment. I think the fact that we have at least 2 on is also supported by the fact that the scum kill was off-wagon, not on-wagon (they didn't want to narrow down the pool of on-wagon people to be chosen as lynch targets). This may be irrelevant and Raerae was killed because she was really towny, but I think it's worth noting.
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Well, the central concept here is that (scum)xeiron saved (scum)Eevee, and decided to push an alternate lynch. (just to make sure we're starting from the same set of assumptions).
For some reason he avoided the AHoppy lynch. Why?
1. Ahoppy is a scum-buddy. This is possible, although I think he'd have been better off hammering Eevee in that instance. The town-cred he would gain, and the town-cred AHoppy would gain would be great. There's also the idea that maybe giving town-cred to alternate lynches day1 when scum is lynched is actually valid, which makes the xeiron-eevee-Ahoppy combo unlikely.
2. A scumbuddy was already pushing that lynch. I was taking the group possible for this to be shraeye + twistedarcher, due to the final wagons, since off-wagon = on AHoppy for what we have alive. However, I hadn't looked back, and doing so changes things.
Actually looking back, AHoppy was at 5 before xeiron started the mail-mi wagon (I didn't really realize this before). Those 5 included nkirbit and chairs. So, my previously analysis was faulty. Actually xeiron-eevee-nkirbit/chairs can make sense for an all-3 on-wagon situation. If xeiron was trying to avoid clumping onto the wagon together with scum-mates, but his scum-mate followed him instead of staying away, that could easily have happened.
So, that reduces my confidence in the 1 scum must be off-wagon situation. Xeiron could easily have been trying to avoid being on a town-lynch that he found likely to go through. Hmm...I'll need to reconsider things then.
Well, you didn't have any major interactions D1, so the 3 scum on-wagon theory becomes a lot more viable if you're one of the 3, I think! You could stick yourself in with any of the pairings and it would make sense.
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TA:
So, if we then add in nkirbit's argument in favor of Xeiron being scum, what do you think of the odds of a theorel/Ahoppy/Xeiron case?
Because nkirbit makes a pretty good argument, here. And I agree that it's possible that the tesla/edison rivalry doesn't necessarily implicate shraeye as scum - since we haven't hit any mafia yet, it's hard to guess at their overall theme.
unvote
Well, my most recent post should make my thoughts on that clear. But I don't think that's the team! Although the first two wouldn't surprise me.
I find it fishy that you're continually naming teams, though. It's as if you're giving people three targets to choose from that aren't you!
Do you think all 3 scum were on wagon for mail-mi?
1) I agree, your recent post made that clear as day.
2) As far as naming teams, I'm getting a lot of benefit from understanding your opinion on why each team would or would not work. Perhaps not so useful for this game, but long-term I'm learning quite a bit about the current f.ds meta from the responses and it's helping me work towards better opinions. I don't have any major gut-check in this game saying "this guy is definitely scum" and that's what I rely on, so this is basically how I scumhunt - by throwing something out there and reading the reflections on my statement from others, until somebody says something that clicks in my head.
3) I think that because f.ds meta currently says you should try 1 on, 2 off or 2 on, 1 off, that it's more likely than not that a very well-played scum team was either all-on or all-off. We've done quite a bit of team theory today over the idea that scum wasn't all on any given wagon, so if I were scum I'd be whole hog on the wagons up until today.
Fair enough :)
Well, we know that a 3-man scum team wasn't all off, so that would leave all on. Personally I know that we have at least 2 scum on, and possibly 3, depending on SHraeye's alignment. I think the fact that we have at least 2 on is also supported by the fact that the scum kill was off-wagon, not on-wagon (they didn't want to narrow down the pool of on-wagon people to be chosen as lynch targets). This may be irrelevant and Raerae was killed because she was really towny, but I think it's worth noting.
Logical.
I know the case is flimsy, but I still think Shraeye is likely scum (particularly given the "Huh, Tesla and Edison were rivals? That explains this thing that I can't talk about but I'm totally not scum" reaction). I'm just not sold enough on it to keep my vote there, if we can make a stronger case elsewhere.
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Well, the central concept here is that (scum)xeiron saved (scum)Eevee, and decided to push an alternate lynch. (just to make sure we're starting from the same set of assumptions).
For some reason he avoided the AHoppy lynch. Why?
1. Ahoppy is a scum-buddy. This is possible, although I think he'd have been better off hammering Eevee in that instance. The town-cred he would gain, and the town-cred AHoppy would gain would be great. There's also the idea that maybe giving town-cred to alternate lynches day1 when scum is lynched is actually valid, which makes the xeiron-eevee-Ahoppy combo unlikely.
2. A scumbuddy was already pushing that lynch. I was taking the group possible for this to be shraeye + twistedarcher, due to the final wagons, since off-wagon = on AHoppy for what we have alive. However, I hadn't looked back, and doing so changes things.
Actually looking back, AHoppy was at 5 before xeiron started the mail-mi wagon (I didn't really realize this before). Those 5 included nkirbit and chairs. So, my previously analysis was faulty. Actually xeiron-eevee-nkirbit/chairs can make sense for an all-3 on-wagon situation. If xeiron was trying to avoid clumping onto the wagon together with scum-mates, but his scum-mate followed him instead of staying away, that could easily have happened.
So, that reduces my confidence in the 1 scum must be off-wagon situation. Xeiron could easily have been trying to avoid being on a town-lynch that he found likely to go through. Hmm...I'll need to reconsider things then.
Well, you didn't have any major interactions D1, so the 3 scum on-wagon theory becomes a lot more viable if you're one of the 3, I think! You could stick yourself in with any of the pairings and it would make sense.
I disagree that I could be stuck in with any pairing. I do not think that a xeiron-Eevee-Theorel scumteam makes sense, even from an outside perspective (in particular due to the lack of any of us on the AHoppy wagon, but also due to my pushing for xeiron-eevee to share alignments).
But regardless, for whichever of you and shraeye is town (assuming one is), certainly you'll find the likelihood of 3 on-wagon different than I find it, because you have no information about any alignments on-wagon. And for whichever of you is scum, you already know I'm right :P
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I think a lot more 3-person pairings would make sense if Xeiron is scum but Eevee isn't.
Why are we all accepting that Xeiron could be crazy crazy scum, but then saying that it wouldn't make sense for him to claim a town investigation on Eevee? If he's playing crazy scum, that would fit right in with everything else!
Also, to be fair Theorel, I haven't looked at any specific 3 team combinations including you to see if any "make sense". But we should be wary of avoiding combinations that don't make sense -- good scum players are skilled enough to manipulate town into making sure that their specific combination doesn't make sense, whether it's avoiding to vote a certain player to manipulate the scum placements, or something similar. It's very possible that our actual scum team is a combination that doesn't make sense. For this reason, I think we're better off looking at scummy individuals, rather than trying to find the entire scum team in one go.
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I think a lot more 3-person pairings would make sense if Also, to be fair Theorel, I haven't looked at any specific 3 team combinations including you to see if any "make sense". But we should be wary of avoiding combinations that don't make sense -- good scum players are skilled enough to manipulate town into making sure that their specific combination doesn't make sense, whether it's avoiding to vote a certain player to manipulate the scum placements, or something similar. It's very possible that our actual scum team is a combination that doesn't make sense. For this reason, I think we're better off looking at scummy individuals, rather than trying to find the entire scum team in one go.
This. I've been following along on mobile and keep thinking "why are we looking at 3 person scum teams already"? We don't have a scum flip yet, and I think it would be easier to find scum teams knowing one member of the team.
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Here's my reads list:
Shraeye - He was off-wagon, and despite his defense, I really feel that scum doesn't want to pile 3 on-wagon, on a town lynch, if they can avoid it. His reaction to Chairs' claim (now I know something that I can't say!) was weird, and he was definitely more background than foreground D1. When I stop being lazy and start a re-read, this will be my first re-read.
Ahoppy - I really do feel that there was scum manipulation in the mail-mi wagon. My top guess for this was EFHW, since she was more forward with her pushing than Ahoppy, but she's flipped town, so I'm more suspicious of Ahoppy now. He was my lynch candidate yesterday, and hasn't really done too much to change that, although I do like some aspects of his case on Chairs.
Chairs - Like I said, some aspects of Ahoppy's case make sense. I think Chairs may be trying to play up his "newbiness" a bit too much. He saw the massive town credit that he mostly got from his paper claim, and could have decided to keep that going with the weak flavor claim that didn't reveal anything. It's playing on people's reactions, and I think that's a more believable explanation, that the claim occurred for town credit, than the claim occurred to incriminate Shraeye.
Theorel - There's a lot of good analysis, but at the same time, he seems really, really jumpy on wagons. He joined a few D1 with little explanation, and has seemed really cautious and analytical with his talk at times, but less so with his votes.
Xeiron - Yes, the play is weird weird weird. Yes, it's anti-town. But I just think he's town. This play is far too risky from a scum perspective, and he had to know he'd take heat for it.
Nkirbit - While I think his case on Xeiron is ultimately wrong, it's also very very logical, and something that I'd expect from a town member. There's a few misrepresentations, and he keeps bringing up the "pen" issue that's not really an issue for me, but his case makes a lot of sense, and has me nodding along every time I read his views. The thing that gives me pause is that he's been pushing Xeiron constantly now, but got off of him quickly enough on D1, and voted on the mail-mi wagon with weakish reasoning, and was also on the Ahoppy wagon I believe?
Eevee - Obviously, he's going to be lower on this list than Xeiron. Given that I think Xeiron is probably town, I think Eevee is probably town, too. And I don't think there's a insignificant chance that Xeiron is scum, and his fellow scum are pushing on him right now with plans to immediately mislynch Eevee tomorrow. So this gives me even more of a town read on Eevee.
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Nkirbit - While I think his case on Xeiron is ultimately wrong, it's also very very logical, and something that I'd expect from a town member. There's a few misrepresentations, and he keeps bringing up the "pen" issue that's not really an issue for me, but his case makes a lot of sense, and has me nodding along every time I read his views. The thing that gives me pause is that he's been pushing Xeiron constantly now, but got off of him quickly enough on D1, and voted on the mail-mi wagon with weakish reasoning, and was also on the Ahoppy wagon I believe?
What misrepresentations? You think the pen thing isn't a big deal, and that's fair enough, but I don't think I'm misrepresenting anything there. What am I misrepresenting?
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I think it's odd that you jump from "he's trying to mimic his play" to "BUT, there are some key differences." You're using both sides of the coin against him, when really that's unfair -- if you think he's trying to gain town cred by playing the same way, I don't think it's fair that you then jump on major differences between the two games. I also think you're making him sound much more relatively crazy in this game, when his theories were also pretty dang crazy in Shakespeare, too.
He's crazier in this game, yes. The thing is, this is undoubtedly a crazier game than Shakespeare, given the involvement of items. I believe it makes sense that crazy Xeiron is crazier because it's a crazier game, not because his alignment changed. More items, more things to theorize about, more jumps in logic. So saying "but he's been soooo much crazier this game" would fit with town Xeiron, as well, I think.
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Another thought about Xeiron! We're assuming a scum team of 3, so if we mislynch today, we likely lose. To get a mislynch at this point, only two town members need to be convinced to vote for another town member.
TA, you say you think I'm town and Xeiron town. Scum obviously knows I'm in favor of a Xeiron lynch, so they would only need to convince one other player of Xeiron being scum, should he be town. Yet, we didn't see any major movement very early towards a Xeiron lynch from anyone other than myself.
And when I'm saying this case, the general response seems to be "Wow, yeah, a lot of what Nkirbit is saying makes sense", but we haven't gotten any additional votes yet. Ahoppy is the only one to indicate that he has an intention to vote Xeiron, I believe. I think scum is much more likely to have resistance on their wagon building, even when they have a great case on them.
I also think Xeiron was on the scummiest position wagon wise. He was largely responsible for redirecting the wagon towards mail-mi, who we now know is town (I feel very stupid for voting for mail-mi given this. I don't know why I did this). I think he's in the scummiest position on wagon, in addition to his extremely anti-town play. Yet, it's extremely hard to get people to vote in his direction. I think scum have a harder time having a wagon built on them than town, and this wagon is not getting going quickly.
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I mean, everyone single person except for me has agreed that Xeiron is scummy right now.
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I think a lot more 3-person pairings would make sense if Also, to be fair Theorel, I haven't looked at any specific 3 team combinations including you to see if any "make sense". But we should be wary of avoiding combinations that don't make sense -- good scum players are skilled enough to manipulate town into making sure that their specific combination doesn't make sense, whether it's avoiding to vote a certain player to manipulate the scum placements, or something similar. It's very possible that our actual scum team is a combination that doesn't make sense. For this reason, I think we're better off looking at scummy individuals, rather than trying to find the entire scum team in one go.
This. I've been following along on mobile and keep thinking "why are we looking at 3 person scum teams already"? We don't have a scum flip yet, and I think it would be easier to find scum teams knowing one member of the team.
I don't disagree that it's easier to find scum teams knowing one member. But I think that analyzing combinations of players is a useful tool for scumhunting, as long as the set of players being analyzed is sufficiently small. In this instance, I'm not looking for the scum-team. I'm trying to determine if certain events are likely based on the necessary implications of it (i.e. what that says about a scum-team).
Regardless this comes down to scum-hunting theory. Since I'm the one primarily analyzing combinations of players, I'll elaborate on the theory behind it. If you're not interested feel free to ignore the rest of this post. I find theory interesting to talk about, and have a tendency to get sidetracked.
The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players. So the question is, how do we differentiate them? Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them. So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.
Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us. But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town. Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive. (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum). Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.
2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum. But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong. Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum. They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right. Either when bussing or when defending a town player. They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing. They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum. This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.
Anyways, there are various things people do to detect each of these cases, and ways that scum tries to cover themselves from such detection. I would argue that 2c. is the hardest for scum to cover for. Their interactions can seem forced, or be non-existent. They avoid each other's wagons or join them ON PURPOSE. And ultimately, that's what I'm looking at in those analyses. I'm looking for purpose, and if any purposes make sense. Now sometimes scum do senseless things, sure. This isn't the be-all end-all of scumhunting. But, I'm terrible at telling if people sound genuine. I am not good at all at reading people. I am good at analyzing data, and searching for patterns and purpose. So, that's what I do.
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Fair enough, that all makes sense to me. I understand why you're doing it, it just feels overwhelming to me :P
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I think a lot more 3-person pairings would make sense if Also, to be fair Theorel, I haven't looked at any specific 3 team combinations including you to see if any "make sense". But we should be wary of avoiding combinations that don't make sense -- good scum players are skilled enough to manipulate town into making sure that their specific combination doesn't make sense, whether it's avoiding to vote a certain player to manipulate the scum placements, or something similar. It's very possible that our actual scum team is a combination that doesn't make sense. For this reason, I think we're better off looking at scummy individuals, rather than trying to find the entire scum team in one go.
This. I've been following along on mobile and keep thinking "why are we looking at 3 person scum teams already"? We don't have a scum flip yet, and I think it would be easier to find scum teams knowing one member of the team.
I hadn't really considered this. In that case, I think TA's scum-to-chum list is a perfect way to go about it, though I'm a bit miffed that I'm listed as "playing up" my newbieness.
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I think a lot more 3-person pairings would make sense if Also, to be fair Theorel, I haven't looked at any specific 3 team combinations including you to see if any "make sense". But we should be wary of avoiding combinations that don't make sense -- good scum players are skilled enough to manipulate town into making sure that their specific combination doesn't make sense, whether it's avoiding to vote a certain player to manipulate the scum placements, or something similar. It's very possible that our actual scum team is a combination that doesn't make sense. For this reason, I think we're better off looking at scummy individuals, rather than trying to find the entire scum team in one go.
This. I've been following along on mobile and keep thinking "why are we looking at 3 person scum teams already"? We don't have a scum flip yet, and I think it would be easier to find scum teams knowing one member of the team.
I don't disagree that it's easier to find scum teams knowing one member. But I think that analyzing combinations of players is a useful tool for scumhunting, as long as the set of players being analyzed is sufficiently small. In this instance, I'm not looking for the scum-team. I'm trying to determine if certain events are likely based on the necessary implications of it (i.e. what that says about a scum-team).
Regardless this comes down to scum-hunting theory. Since I'm the one primarily analyzing combinations of players, I'll elaborate on the theory behind it. If you're not interested feel free to ignore the rest of this post. I find theory interesting to talk about, and have a tendency to get sidetracked.
The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players. So the question is, how do we differentiate them? Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them. So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.
Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us. But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town. Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive. (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum). Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.
2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum. But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong. Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum. They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right. Either when bussing or when defending a town player. They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing. They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum. This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.
Anyways, there are various things people do to detect each of these cases, and ways that scum tries to cover themselves from such detection. I would argue that 2c. is the hardest for scum to cover for. Their interactions can seem forced, or be non-existent. They avoid each other's wagons or join them ON PURPOSE. And ultimately, that's what I'm looking at in those analyses. I'm looking for purpose, and if any purposes make sense. Now sometimes scum do senseless things, sure. This isn't the be-all end-all of scumhunting. But, I'm terrible at telling if people sound genuine. I am not good at all at reading people. I am good at analyzing data, and searching for patterns and purpose. So, that's what I do.
;D Let's take these (very excellent) points and find us some scum!
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Here's my reads list:
As I was reading this, I started noticing how you say something positive about every player but then after the comma you plant a seed about their scumminess by reminding what suspect things they've done. Then I realized you were going from scummiest to towniest and a good portion of the people here actually is town, especially for a townie, so maybe it isn't such big a deal.
I think xeiron copping me N0 still sounds awfully convenient.
Xeiron, do you have any other investigation results? Why did you choose me?
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I think the only person I really did that with was nkirbit? And he's done scummy stuff, but this case against xeiron just reads so towny to me.
Of course I have a lot of scum reads, almost half of you are scum! If I believe xeiron, then that leaves 60% scum among everyone else.
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Here's my reads list:
As I was reading this, I started noticing how you say something positive about every player but then after the comma you plant a seed about their scumminess by reminding what suspect things they've done. Then I realized you were going from scummiest to towniest and a good portion of the people here actually is town, especially for a townie, so maybe it isn't such big a deal.
I think xeiron copping me N0 still sounds awfully convenient.
Xeiron, do you have any other investigation results? Why did you choose me?
I will not claim stuff now outside of a massclaim.
I chose you because I find you hard to read and hard to lynch.
The first part should be obvious, the second means i would chatch one of the most dangerous member on the scumteam should i get positive results, and probably have town knowledge of a player that stays long in the game should i get negative results.
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Okay, that makes sense, but refusing to claim cop results outside of a mass claim sounds an awful lot like extortion.. "unless you do what I want, I won't tell you what I know".
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Also, I'm against the mass claim as well. It would just help scum solve the game and make fake claims easier
No, it will help town solve the game. We are probably at mylo right now, so we should make it or goal to lynch scum tonight with all means necessary. Yes we can get a lucky save from a doctor, but that is nothing to rely on.
I will gladly exchange our doctor for a better chanse of hitting scum today.
And I thing my order of claiming minimizes scum's chance of fake-claiming.
Here's my reads list:
As I was reading this, I started noticing how you say something positive about every player but then after the comma you plant a seed about their scumminess by reminding what suspect things they've done. Then I realized you were going from scummiest to towniest and a good portion of the people here actually is town, especially for a townie, so maybe it isn't such big a deal.
I think xeiron copping me N0 still sounds awfully convenient.
Xeiron, do you have any other investigation results? Why did you choose me?
I will not claim stuff now outside of a massclaim.
I chose you because I find you hard to read and hard to lynch.
The first part should be obvious, the second means i would chatch one of the most dangerous member on the scumteam should i get positive results, and probably have town knowledge of a player that stays long in the game should i get negative results.
All means necessary, or only if everyone else does?
The contradiction here reads like you're trying to get town to claim their items so you can use it to your advantage..
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So Xeiron came and went and didn't acknowledge my case on him. What does everyone think about that?
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So Xeiron came and went and didn't acknowledge my case on him. What does everyone think about that?
Fits with ignoring our requests for explanation for the reads. I think it falls under the "purposely cryptic" category.
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Here's my reads list:
Shraeye - He was off-wagon, and despite his defense, I really feel that scum doesn't want to pile 3 on-wagon, on a town lynch, if they can avoid it. His reaction to Chairs' claim (now I know something that I can't say!) was weird, and he was definitely more background than foreground D1. When I stop being lazy and start a re-read, this will be my first re-read.
Ahoppy - I really do feel that there was scum manipulation in the mail-mi wagon. My top guess for this was EFHW, since she was more forward with her pushing than Ahoppy, but she's flipped town, so I'm more suspicious of Ahoppy now. He was my lynch candidate yesterday, and hasn't really done too much to change that, although I do like some aspects of his case on Chairs.
Chairs - Like I said, some aspects of Ahoppy's case make sense. I think Chairs may be trying to play up his "newbiness" a bit too much. He saw the massive town credit that he mostly got from his paper claim, and could have decided to keep that going with the weak flavor claim that didn't reveal anything. It's playing on people's reactions, and I think that's a more believable explanation, that the claim occurred for town credit, than the claim occurred to incriminate Shraeye.
Theorel - There's a lot of good analysis, but at the same time, he seems really, really jumpy on wagons. He joined a few D1 with little explanation, and has seemed really cautious and analytical with his talk at times, but less so with his votes.
Xeiron - Yes, the play is weird weird weird. Yes, it's anti-town. But I just think he's town. This play is far too risky from a scum perspective, and he had to know he'd take heat for it.
Nkirbit - While I think his case on Xeiron is ultimately wrong, it's also very very logical, and something that I'd expect from a town member. There's a few misrepresentations, and he keeps bringing up the "pen" issue that's not really an issue for me, but his case makes a lot of sense, and has me nodding along every time I read his views. The thing that gives me pause is that he's been pushing Xeiron constantly now, but got off of him quickly enough on D1, and voted on the mail-mi wagon with weakish reasoning, and was also on the Ahoppy wagon I believe?
Eevee - Obviously, he's going to be lower on this list than Xeiron. Given that I think Xeiron is probably town, I think Eevee is probably town, too. And I don't think there's a insignificant chance that Xeiron is scum, and his fellow scum are pushing on him right now with plans to immediately mislynch Eevee tomorrow. So this gives me even more of a town read on Eevee.
The odd thing about this list is that you find every person scummy for some reason or another except xeiron and by extension Eevee. But even in the paragraph for Eevee, you mention that xeiron could possibly be scum. So, you're saying that your reads are "everybody is maybe scum, except Eevee."
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Yeah. I don't think that's unusual, for this point of the game. We have a decent percentage of scum in the people left, and so little information to work with, that I wouldn't be shocked by any person flipping scum. Apart from Eevee, I really have no strong town reads, and he's not THAT strong of a town read.
I'm suspicious of all of you!
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I mean, everyone single person except for me has agreed that Xeiron is scummy right now.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. My mind is not made up regarding xeiron. yesterday, i was sure he was town, and was getting frustrated at nkirbit for pushing xeiron's lynch so hard while ignoring the AHoppy case I was spearheading, because I think that is the best one I've seen yet.
Today, I'm beginning to see more suspicious things; some are points made by nkirbit, and one of which I pointed out (the post you said "dingdingding" about). But xeiron's far from a scum read for me.
AHoppy is still my scummiest read, and I find it suspicious that it seems like nobody wants to talk aobut AHoppy being the viable wagon that we veered away from before that mail-mi debacle.
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I've been following along on mobile and keep thinking "why are we looking at 3 person scum teams already"? We don't have a scum flip yet, and I think it would be easier to find scum teams knowing one member of the team.
This sounds like you're worried that your name has popped up too often.
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I still think that Ahoppy's scummy. I agreed with your and Raerae's case yesterday (although it wasn't the strongest case), and I really think that people hopping on the mail-mi wagon rather than the Ahoppy wagon was suspicious. After Xeiron, there were not-great cases on both players, but to me, one of those cases (the one on Ahoppy) was much better than the other. Yet most of the people who voted with little reason (Theorel, Chairs are the biggest names to come to mind) hopped on the mail-mi wagon and not the Ahoppy wagon.
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What are you trying to say here? Why does the last sentence begin with 'yet'? Both the part before and after that word seem to indicate the same thing.
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Ahoppy would be my second choice behind Xeiron. If we can't get Xeiron going, I would vote there.
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One of the cases was a better case to me (Ahoppy vs. Mail-mi). Yet others disagreed and jumped on mail-mi instead of Ahoppy.
I'm trying to say that while the case wasn't slam dunk, I agreed with it mostly, and thought it had MUCH more merit than the case on mail-mi. The fact that several of the 'jumpier' voters, such as Chairs and Theorel, jumped on Mail-mi instead of Ahoppy, makes me suspicious that there was redirecting from Ahoppy to mail-mi. Now I doubt both of them would do that, since it would be really obvious for Ahoppy to be scum and BOTH of his partners jump on mail-mi late like that. But it makes me really suspicious of Ahoppy, and of the people who chose to lynch mail-mi rather than Ahoppy when there were two cases on the weaker side floating around (Chairs and Theorel, and Nkirbit also falls into this group. Xeiron does as well, but I think he's town).
If Ahoppy turns up scum, I think we'd find both his partners on-wagon for the mail-mi lynch. That would mean three scum on-wagon. Now, Chairs has said before that he'd guess scum might have manipulated to have all three scum on wagon, so this would actually probably make him less likely to be a possible Ahoppy partner, since I doubt scum would proclaim that if all three scum were actually on wagon. So I'd look to Theorel and Nkirbit as likely possible Ahoppy partners. Probably Theorel, who I believe was never voting Ahoppy.
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Going off of that Chairs thought, I think that Chairs, if scum, would say the opposite of what the scum distribution was. So if he's saying 3 scum on wagon, and turns up scum, I'd assume 2 scum on 1 scum off, so I'd look immediately at Shraeye.
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AHoppy is still my scummiest read, and I find it suspicious that it seems like nobody wants to talk aobut AHoppy being the viable wagon that we veered away from before that mail-mi debacle.
personally, I find this really suspicious too. I thought I would be getting a lot of flak from everyone since I was the second most wanted lynch yesterday. So far, people have just been saying they still find me scummy but nobody seems to want to lynch me.
Secondly: I would like to point out that chairs is doing the same thing that the case on me is built on. He just said "Guys let's do some scumhunting" and yet has done nothing to help that along since that post.
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AHoppy is still my scummiest read, and I find it suspicious that it seems like nobody wants to talk aobut AHoppy being the viable wagon that we veered away from before that mail-mi debacle.
personally, I find this really suspicious too. I thought I would be getting a lot of flak from everyone since I was the second most wanted lynch yesterday. So far, people have just been saying they still find me scummy but nobody seems to want to lynch me.
Secondly: I would like to point out that chairs is doing the same thing that the case on me is built on. He just said "Guys let's do some scumhunting" and yet has done nothing to help that along since that post.
Sorry, I picked up the new expansion for Civ 5 and got distracted, and I also have a new shift at work (literally as of today) that's making me a bit tired. :-[
So are we in mylo or not? Because if we're not, we could lynch (based on the conversations here) shraeye or yourself, and get some effective data on who might be scum based on the flip. Obviously if we're in a position where we need to be sure that's going to be a different situation.
I wonder if you're trying to push the chairs wagon because I acted rashly earlier in the game and it's an easy argument to make. Granted, if you are town, then we have a town v town situation, and if we're in mylo, that's going to not go well for us either way :(
[end stream of consciousness]
You specifically call out my lack of scumhunting. I will say this (I thought I already did, but I'll repeat it) - me posting does little/null for me in terms of effective scumhunting. The interactions the rest of you are having, even when you're discussing my case or an unrelated case, are what does it for me. I also don't do terribly well at scum-to-chum or analysis posts, so my posts end up being these "random blathering" things (which I've already been called out on as 'look he has nothing to say'). It's not that I have nothing to say, but more that I function at a very instinctual level and it's hard to turn "This guy makes my skin crawl" into a logic-based case.
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Well, anyone who is making your skin crawl right now?
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Well, anyone who is making your skin crawl right now?
And therein lies the rub. I'll try to translate my feelings here into a brief list, with the most notable thing in an attempt to explain.
Ahoppy is, but that could be OMGUS taking effect.
Shraeye and xeiron are - shraeye for the "oh, that explains (rivalry thing I can't talk about but PINL I'm not scum)" - but lord knows why, maybe it's legit that it's not explainable without giving scum too much - and xeiron for "I HAZ IDEA AND I CANNOT ESPLAIN EVEN THOUGH MYLO" - again, the seed of doubt exists that maybe this is legitimate.
Nkirbit's tunneling xeiron hard, so one of them is probably scum (or even potentially a bus).
I see you yourself mention Theorel, but he's never really ding-ding-dinged for me.
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I went back and reviewed the AHoppy case. I still think it was weak, and that ultimately it was about his lurking. Here's the case as I understand it:
-AHoppy talked theory early on, while noting that we should probably get to scumhunting. While "real scumhunting" was going on. I was there, I was talking theory, I don't think scumhunting was really going on. There were two "non-RVS" claimed votes, and maybe the thing between shraeye and efhw at that time? That was as much transition-out-of-RVS stuff as the theory talk was.
-AHoppy is away a lot, and pops up when his name is mentioned. i.e. he's lurking.
-He said he would reread in the evening, and then come evening, he said he was starting to reread, and then 3 hours later, he posted stuff about it. Then a day later, he finished the reread and started posting reads and contributing more.
I said yesterday that this was a null case. I hold that this was a null case. It's not as bad as ashersky's case on efhw was, because, yeah he was lurking, and that's a case. But it is in no way compelling, and I'm frankly not surprised that people who thought it was a weak case yesterday aren't bringing it up.
Now, today, AHoppy has attacked chairs a bit, and threatened to vote for xeiron. That could be suspicious if he's going for easy cases, or it could be town looking at the most suspicious things that have happened this game.
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Which do you think it is, Theorel? You're giving us two options to choose from, but not stating your opinion on the matter. Do you think he's towny?
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That's a decent amount of people, but that's in line with my list of finding most people in the game scummy too. Are they all at about the same level, or are there some that stick out more than others?
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That's a decent amount of people, but that's in line with my list of finding most people in the game scummy too. Are they all at about the same level, or are there some that stick out more than others?
Initially nkirbit was my strongest itch. Right now the cryptic responses from both xeiron and shraeye have me twitchy, though. If I had to scum to chum the list I gave, based on overall game...
On a 1-10 scale where 10 is scum and 1 is chum..
nkirbit 7.5
ahoppy 6
xeiron 6
shraeye 7
theorel 5
TA 3
Who else is still in? So many people died last night I've forgotten.
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I will say that if we lynched Ahoppy and he flipped scum, it would increase my suspicion of theorel. And (if I'm on the same page as everybody else) if he flipped town we lose, right?
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I agree that Ahoppy flipping scum would increase my suspicion of Theorel (although I already have him higher than you do). He'd be the most likely mover who instead of going to the Ahoppy wagon went to the mail-mi one.
Yes, very possibly. Not 100% certain, since we could doc the NK or make it miss somehow, but odds are if we hit town, we're at 3 scum, 4 town heading into N2. If scum can kill a townie, then it's game over.
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Can you explain what about Nkirbit is making you worry? (Sorry that I'm asking youa lot of questions right now, but I'm trying to get your reads out here!)
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Okay, I'm going to do some more team analysis based on whether AHoppy is scum or not. It yields somewhat useful results for me, that are not probably as useful for other players.
If AHoppy is scum, then there was a wagon on scum yesterday. Other scum players interacted with that wagon...So, let's see how that might have happened:
xeiron-eevee: this means that we had 3 wagons on scum, xeiron saved himself through a crazy-plan claim, eevee through a cop-claim, and AHoppy by starting a wagon on mail-mi. This is just so contrived, that I cannot conceive it.
I'm explicitly ignoring xeiron-AHoppy NOT EEVEE because I cannot believe that someone would fake-claim cop in order to save a townie when the other viable lynch was his partner. And then NOT bus. I mean seriously I don't know how anyone could entertain that idea.
shraeye: pushed the AHoppy lynch alongside raerae. This could be strong bussing, and the fact that raerae kind of started it makes it much more feasible.
TwistedArcher: on and off the AHoppy lynch, this looks more like typical bussing.
chairs/nkirbit: both voted AHoppy yesterday, but jumped the wagon for mail-mi.
I would then expect one of twistedarcher-shraeye, one of chairs-nkirbit, and AHoppy as the team. That seems pretty reasonable for reasonable bussing situations, while trying to avoid too strongly going after a town-wagon.
Which brings the Eevee-wagon into play. If they were trying to avoid going too strongly after a town-wagon, then twistedarcher doesn't fit (since all 3 would have been on Eevee).
So, I think if AHoppy is scum, shraeye is likely also scum going for a strong bus, and one of chairs/nkirbit is likely the third.
What if AHoppy is town?
Then we had 2 town wagons going on, and scum was deciding which town wagon to take on. There's not a strong reason to take mail-mi over AHoppy as far as I can tell, except possibly positioning. So, could 3-scum be on wagon with AHoppy town?
xeiron-eevee-?
nkirbit seems unlikely here. Weird combination of bussing and saving going on among the team.
chairs is possible. And fits well enough.
shraeye/twistedarcher both fit well enough.
xeiron-not eevee?
well, here xeiron could have saved eevee for the town-cred, confident that the other wagon was on town (or wagons if you count efhw). Then he started one on mail-mi. Okay, I think I can see the crazy-for-towncred plan here that makes Eevee town, as long as AHoppy is also town.
nkirbit still seems relatively unlikely for his strong bus, but I'm not familiar enough with nkirbit to judge it's likeliness without other stuff to back it up. If I assume that nkirbit wouldn't strong-bus his partner like this, then we have chairs as scum with an off-wagon player. twistedarcher could work here, as could shraeye.
Finally, we have nkirbit-chairs-off-wagon player. I think that TwistedArcher doesn't fit in as well there, since they would have moved as a block from Eevee to AHoppy, which seems less likely. So, shraeye comes up again.
Okay, so AHoppy scum->strong suspicions of shraeye as scum. strong suspicions that xeiron is town.
AHoppy town->middling-strong suspicions that xeiron is scum and nkirbit is town. Minimal distinction between twistedarcher/shraeye here, and a possibility that they're both town.
And this is why these analyses are often considered useless I suppose. Before writing it out, it was looking possible that regardless of AHoppy's alignment shraeye would come up scummy, but the analysis didn't bear that out. So, that makes for 8 "reasonable" scum-teams from my perspective:
AHoppy-nkirbit-shraeye
AHoppy-chairs-shraeye
xeiron-eevee-chairs
xeiron-eevee-twistedarcher
xeiron-eevee-shraeye
xeiron-chairs-twistedarcher
xeiron-chairs-shraeye
nkirbit-chairs-shraeye
Some of those discarded are not really weak enough to discount entirely, but for simplicity I'm looking at these ones as the "most likely" cases. I think that I'm reasonably allowing for scums attempts to misdirect.
If this is accurate then it makes shraeye, chairs, and xeiron most likely to flip scum (assuming all combinations are equal).
Hmm...I didn't consider both off-wagon though. Let me add that:
shraeye-twistedarcher
this could combine with:
xeiron, chairs, nkirbit, and AHoppy all okay. I think these are less likely than the cases above though, if only because it means that only 1 scum managed to push the mail-mi mislynch while both scum were pushing the AHoppy mislynch (or correct lynch, if they were). Yeah, I'm just going to say that this is low enough probability not to include.
So, I think shraeye, chairs, and xeiron are most likely to flip scum given the ways the wagon build yesterday. Based purely on reads, I lean shraeye or xeiron, with the added bonus that every likely combination (IMO) contains at least one of them. This fits with my more general feelings regarding player's behaviors also. I'll have to think some on which one I prefer, but I think this analysis proved fruitful.
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Which do you think it is, Theorel? You're giving us two options to choose from, but not stating your opinion on the matter. Do you think he's towny?
Schrodinger's Cat. I don't know which it is, and make no attempt to say it is one or the other.
If someone does something which only makes sense for scum, then they are a lot scummier for it, but technically they could be doing something as town that just doesn't make sense. (Town does this sometimes anyways, some players more than others)
If someone does something that can make sense as town or as scum, then they're slightly scummier for it. It makes sense either way, but if you do lots of things that makes sense for scum, well that's what scum does.
If someone does something that only makes sense for town, then they're townier for it. Sometimes scum does these things, but ultimately if we find people scummy for being pro-town then we're defeating ourselves.
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shraeye: pushed the AHoppy lynch alongside raerae. This could be strong bussing, and the fact that raerae kind of started it makes it much more feasible.
TwistedArcher: on and off the AHoppy lynch, this looks more like typical bussing.
This part reads so contrived to fit into your "one of Shraeye/TA must be scum, we're better off lynching there!" argument.
I don't think Shraeye would buss that strongly D1, he didn't have an incentive to when there were many, many viable wagons out there. Scum's priority D1 is to lynch town, and Shraeye sat on Ahoppy for a large part of the day, instead of moving other lynches forward. I just don't see sitting on Ahoppy all day, if Shraeye is scum, being in scum's best interest.
For me, you're saying that I decided to bus my partner, the alternative wagon, while strongly opposing the wagon building on a towny. Bussing is a thing, yes, but that just seems silly to me. Getting lynched D1 is bad for scum, and I don't think they bus unless it's very apparent that the partner is going down.
Everything you are posting is leading to the "one of Shraeye and TA MUST be scum" argument, which just seems forced. I get, from reading your post, that you're trying to come up with logical situations to get to this conclusion, rather than letting the logic guide you.
This post made it more likely to me that all 3 scum were on wagon.
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Which do you think it is, Theorel? You're giving us two options to choose from, but not stating your opinion on the matter. Do you think he's towny?
Schrodinger's Cat. I don't know which it is, and make no attempt to say it is one or the other.
If someone does something which only makes sense for scum, then they are a lot scummier for it, but technically they could be doing something as town that just doesn't make sense. (Town does this sometimes anyways, some players more than others)
If someone does something that can make sense as town or as scum, then they're slightly scummier for it. It makes sense either way, but if you do lots of things that makes sense for scum, well that's what scum does.
If someone does something that only makes sense for town, then they're townier for it. Sometimes scum does these things, but ultimately if we find people scummy for being pro-town then we're defeating ourselves.
Well, you putting out the possibilities, but not giving your opinion, is a great way for scum to see what town things, and then just go along with that.
You are laying out tons of logical possibilities, but not really saying which ones you think are most likely. I understand this is how you play to a large extent (and I totally understand that), but it leaves you with a lot of flexibility to hop on a lot of town wagons (if you're scum) by saying "Yeah, I can see a scenario where that guy is scum", since almost everyone would fit in that category.
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Can you explain what about Nkirbit is making you worry? (Sorry that I'm asking youa lot of questions right now, but I'm trying to get your reads out here!)
The tunnel vision he's had on Xeiron just feels a little contrived.
You make some interesting points, but I agree with TA that it feels like you're perhaps leaning a bit. I will try to find time today (no guarantees) to reread how the Ahoppy bus got started to see how smoothly it fits with what you're suggesting here.
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shraeye: pushed the AHoppy lynch alongside raerae. This could be strong bussing, and the fact that raerae kind of started it makes it much more feasible.
TwistedArcher: on and off the AHoppy lynch, this looks more like typical bussing.
This part reads so contrived to fit into your "one of Shraeye/TA must be scum, we're better off lynching there!" argument.
I don't think Shraeye would buss that strongly D1, he didn't have an incentive to when there were many, many viable wagons out there. Scum's priority D1 is to lynch town, and Shraeye sat on Ahoppy for a large part of the day, instead of moving other lynches forward. I just don't see sitting on Ahoppy all day, if Shraeye is scum, being in scum's best interest.
For me, you're saying that I decided to bus my partner, the alternative wagon, while strongly opposing the wagon building on a towny. Bussing is a thing, yes, but that just seems silly to me. Getting lynched D1 is bad for scum, and I don't think they bus unless it's very apparent that the partner is going down.
Everything you are posting is leading to the "one of Shraeye and TA MUST be scum" argument, which just seems forced. I get, from reading your post, that you're trying to come up with logical situations to get to this conclusion, rather than letting the logic guide you.
This post made it more likely to me that all 3 scum were on wagon.
I don't disagree. I had a bias going into it, because I was expecting to get a result that more strongly pointed to shraeye as scum. (I even said as much). But by the time I was analyzing the AHoppy not-scum situation I realized that wasn't happening. I should probably review the AHoppy-as-scum section for accuracy, with that bias more dead.
Also, I will note that a MAJOR component to the argument regarding shraeye's potential bussing is the fact that it's shraeye. I would not at all be surprised for shraeye to bus a team-mate hard for a long time, especially with town-raerae agreeing with him. I would not rate that probability nearly as highly for any other player in the game.
I also completely disagree that scum wouldn't bus a team-mate while decrying a wagon building on a townie. Especially for someone as talkative as yourself. You couldn't sit and do nothing, you had to say something. You had an extant town-read on mail-mi. For you to do otherwise would look highly suspect. I'll note that you DID do otherwise with Eevee where you had not previously declared a strong town-read. You also could have been concerned that the lynch on AHoppy would go through, and didn't want to be caught off-wagon. That's what ends up creating more common bussing situations, a player concerned that things will quickly shift onto a team-mate and they won't have time to get on wagon if they get off.
Actually, you've convinced me, you should be a possibility in case of AHoppy as scum.
The question is would scum-AHoppy bus scum-chairs as he has today? Possibly, with scum in a strong position they might consider it. However, I'll lean against it for the moment, and say that if AHoppy is scum, nkirbit makes much more sense than chairs. So, that changes the 8 to:
AHoppy-nkirbit-twistedarcher
AHoppy-nkirbit-shraeye
xeiron-eevee-chairs
xeiron-eevee-twistedarcher
xeiron-eevee-shraeye
xeiron-chairs-twistedarcher
xeiron-chairs-shraeye
nkirbit-chairs-shraeye
Which makes xeiron more likely than shraeye or chairs now. Sadly leaves a possibility in place that doesn't have either xeiron or shraeye.
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Well now that we have your list of possible teams (and if I could bet on it, I'd bet that the team is probably something else), how do we proceed in choosing the correct person to lynch? I think in a lot of ways the impact of your list is to confirm that everyone could be a potential scum, while not pushing us any closer to any individual team. Logic can be very useful, but it can also be a way to say things without actually giving your opinion.
If you had to lynch one person right now, who would it be?
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Well now that we have your list of possible teams (and if I could bet on it, I'd bet that the team is probably something else), how do we proceed in choosing the correct person to lynch? I think in a lot of ways the impact of your list is to confirm that everyone could be a potential scum, while not pushing us any closer to any individual team. Logic can be very useful, but it can also be a way to say things without actually giving your opinion.
If you had to lynch one person right now, who would it be?
I gave definite conclusions there (and before), that I lean towards xerion or shraeye and commented that it would take more thought to decide between them. Which is far more conclusion than you've given in any of your posts.
You seem to be more interested in finding out who everyone else wants to lynch than in actually advancing your own reads. Your generic list where everyone has the possibility of being scum, is a great way to say things without actually giving an opinion. So, if you had to lynch one person right now who would it be?
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Shraeye. My list was scum to town. Followed closely by Ahoppy.
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I'd be okay with a Shraeye lynch.
Where's everybody else gone?
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I'd be okay with a Shraeye lynch.
Where's everybody else gone?
I am probably ok with a shraeye lynch, but I would like a massclaim first. I think that would clear him if he is town, and we are not in the position to take risks.
Another reson for massclaim that I have not mentioned before is that if we add flavor claiming, chairs could check if somebody fakeclaims.
Edison as an example is such a scummy flavor that Shraeye, if scum, probably has a fakeclaim laying by that he never got to use.
Flavorclaiming makes chairs power stronger.
For more information on why i think edison is scummy, check out all the internet campaigns marking tesla as a hero, and edison as a major asshole and theif
www.cracked.com/article_16072_5-famous-inventors-who-stole-their-big-idea.html
www.cracked.com/article_14870_7-great-men-in-history-and-why-you-should-hate-them_p2.html
listverse.com/2012/06/07/10-ways-edison-treated-tesla-like-a-jerk/
These kind of articles are widespread on the internet and they do their job in making Edison the first name to pop up when thinking about scummy/unplesant/douchebaggy inventors
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That's certainly a point against Shraeye, but I'd hardly call it damning.
You didn't mention flavor claiming in your mass claim plan before, but you are mentioning it now, as soon as it would possibly incriminate someone who was already one of your top reads?
How would a massclaim clear Shraeye? Based off of information you have, or based off of information that's available to the rest of us? Keep in mind, no one here is going to take your word that SHraeye is town just because you say it -- you'll have to prove it with information that's public and believable if we eventually mass claim.
If Edison's the "scummiest" inventor, then I doubt we'll have anyone fakeclaiming flavor. So Chairs will just verify our claims, but I doubt anyone would have a reason to lie in the first place. Plus, we don't know that chairs is town.
I'm still against a fakeclaim. I'd need more reason than "I'd be able to puzzle out who the town are, leaving us with the rest as scum". Once again, I don't think you'd be able to do this!
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Why do you think a massclaim would clear Shraeye if he is town?
Again, I'm fully opposed to any mass claim that doesn't start with Xeiron claiming absolutely everything he knows.
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Okay, I've thought about it some. First, there's something that twistedarcher has mentioned a couple of times that was tickling at the back of my brain. Particularly regarding how there's some contradiction about xeiron where we have said "he's crazy for X, but wouldn't do Y because that would be crazy". I think that's false. If xeiron is scum, I don't see any of his actions as counter-intuitive. Here's my "scum-narrative" for xeiron:
-xeiron goes along trying to appear pro-town without doing much. But gets called out for his play, and comes under pressure.
-He decides that his best bet to get out from pressure is to make an outlandish claim about a crazy plan that can buy him at least a couple days. To lend the most credulity to his claim, he puts a no lynch with it, because it makes it seem less scummy. He does this hoping to remind people of his town-play in Shakespeare.
-While voting no lynch, he's not really pushing town cases, partner Eevee comes under attack. He sees the alternative lynches, figures any of them would be alright, makes a one-shot cop claim clearing Eevee. This is somewhat risky, because there might be another cop, but one-shot cop claims for town-cred are feasible (hence he's not directly outing his partner), and he figures if he can get a cop lynched it would be worth it. After all, he's established a strong town-read from other players. (Note: there are alternative explanations, including that he did do it for pure town-cred. I find those less likely, but not impossible.).
-He starts a wagon on mail-mi in hopes that AHoppy will go through without his support, thereby completing his town-cred grabbing for the day.
-Today he finds scum in a pretty good position, needs something to continue his "crazy" plan, and decides that the best way to do so is request a mass-claim. Worst case scenario, he gives good direction to his partners by showing where all the best items are, best case scenario he can make up something for his plan to frame a townie.
None of this requires xeiron to be a crazy player, it requires him to be a smart scum-player looking to build off of his town-meta. Anyways, if AHoppy was scum, then xeiron would have to be crazy. I don't think xeiron is that crazy, therefore I think that IF xeiron is scum, AHoppy is town.
Anyways, it's also possible that xeiron is town, and is just playing a typical anti-town townie game of keeping information secret, being confusing, and not sharing because he's paranoid that once the info is out there scum will take advantage of it. I don't LIKE that kind of play, because it's anti-town, and I just generally think an unwillingness to share a strategy is foolish, a strategy that will fail once scum knows about it has likely already failed. That's more generally just not in my make-up for how to play games, you don't keep strategies secret, you keep information secret. (See Mage Knight 1 where I give strategic advice to other players, and pops reprimands me for it :P.)
@xeiron: you need to adjust your strategy. I can already tell you it's flawed. It's flawed because it requires everyone to trust you, and everyone doesn't trust you. There's a huge gaping flaw in your strategy, and it needs to be amended. IF you cannot execute your strategy without the trust of the entire town, and your strategy does not include a way to gain the trust of the entire town, then it fails. It is NOT a game-winning strategy.
Everyone but you is opposed to a mass-claim. (if you're town) Either you have some information that makes the claim far better than everyone thinks it will be, or you have some strategy that makes it far better than everyone thinks, or you're just WRONG and it will actually make things worse. Either you explain why it makes things better, or you console yourself to the fact that you're not getting your way, and try and formulate a new strategy that will actually work.
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Sorry for the random wall-of-text. I realized it was unrelated to my vote, so I just posted it.
In thinking about it, I think shraeye is the better lynch candidate. He makes sense in combination with more players, even if in fewer combinations overall. shraeye was also off-wagon, and ignoring the wagon analysis, I just find it more likely that there was a scum off-wagon. shraeye looks more like that scum than twistedarcher.
so, vote: shraeye
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I agree with theorel (about xeiron).
@xeiron: you need to adjust your strategy. I can already tell you it's flawed. It's flawed because it requires everyone to trust you, and everyone doesn't trust you. There's a huge gaping flaw in your strategy, and it needs to be amended. IF you cannot execute your strategy without the trust of the entire town, and your strategy does not include a way to gain the trust of the entire town, then it fails. It is NOT a game-winning strategy.
This is SO spot on!
I've been going back and forth whether I suspect theorel or shraeye more (Ahoppy is up there too). Vote: shraeye
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Vote Count 2.1
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (2) theorel, Eevee
chairs (1) AHoppy
Not Voting (4) xeiron, Twistedarcher, shraeye, chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have begun digging into your bankable time.
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Oh man, I forgot about the bankable time... anyways, I'm going to go back and reread shraye later tonight (no idea when I'll get home). If I think he's scummy enough like all of you, I'll put my vote there. But I don't think wagon analysis is a slam dunk by any means. I'd still like to lynch chairs or xerion ATM. But I still think xerion really needs to claim something. With theorel and Eevee, if you are town, you're just hurting us more than helping.
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Vote Count 2.1
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (2) theorel, Eevee
chairs (1) AHoppy
Not Voting (4) xeiron, Twistedarcher, shraeye, chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have begun digging into your bankable time.
Am I voting or not voting? MAKE UP MY MIND!
Unvote
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Vote Count 2.1
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (2) theorel, Eevee
chairs (1) AHoppy
Not Voting (4) xeiron, Twistedarcher, shraeye, chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have begun digging into your bankable time.
Am I voting or not voting? MAKE UP MY MIND!
Unvote
...I totally misread that as "I am voting for Ahoppy".
I'm dumb.
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Oh man, I forgot about the bankable time... anyways, I'm going to go back and reread shraye later tonight (no idea when I'll get home). If I think he's scummy enough like all of you, I'll put my vote there. But I don't think wagon analysis is a slam dunk by any means. I'd still like to lynch chairs or xerion ATM. But I still think xerion really needs to claim something. With theorel and Eevee, if you are town, you're just hurting us more than helping.
I'm definitely looking forward to an explanation from xeiron.
How much bankable time do we have at the moment?
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Vote Count 2.1
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (2) theorel, Eevee
chairs (1) AHoppy
Not Voting (4) xeiron, Twistedarcher, shraeye, chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. You have begun digging into your bankable time.
Am I voting or not voting? MAKE UP MY MIND!
Unvote
...I totally misread that as "I am voting for Ahoppy".
I'm dumb.
No worries, that happens to me almost every time I read these.
I'm looking forward to an explanation, but I'm doubtful we'll get one. He's being quite ornery.
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Because he's scum!
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Oh man, I forgot about the bankable time... anyways, I'm going to go back and reread shraye later tonight (no idea when I'll get home). If I think he's scummy enough like all of you, I'll put my vote there. But I don't think wagon analysis is a slam dunk by any means. I'd still like to lynch chairs or xerion ATM. But I still think xerion really needs to claim something. With theorel and Eevee, if you are town, you're just hurting us more than helping.
I'm definitely looking forward to an explanation from xeiron.
How much bankable time do we have at the moment?
~11 days
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Because he's scum!
That's the conclusion I'm coming to as well. Even if he does claim, I'll probably be Leary of it since he's had his sweet old time (and another night) to concoct an ashersky-mean-girls fake claim.
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Because he's scum!
That's the conclusion I'm coming to as well. Even if he does claim, I'll probably be Leary of it since he's had his sweet old time (and another night) to concoct an ashersky-mean-girls fake claim.
I haven't read mean girls, but I'm leaning towards a xeiron lynch myself, barring a very good explanation as to why we shouldn't.
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Theorel, what exactly is the case on me that you're voting for? That your wagon analysis matches me with the most people??
I really think we should be looking at Twisted more closely; I found another set of things that just doesn't add up. This weekend I should have more time to reread things comprehensively, but scanning through recent posts today I found this:
Yeah. I don't think that's unusual, for this point of the game. We have a decent percentage of scum in the people left, and so little information to work with, that I wouldn't be shocked by any person flipping scum. Apart from Eevee, I really have no strong town reads, and he's not THAT strong of a town read.
I'm suspicious of all of you!
I mean, everyone single person except for me has agreed that Xeiron is scummy right now.
These two statements don't jive together. what is Twitsed actually saying about xeiron? First, Twisted is the only guy who has a townread on xeiron; then, Eevee is his only town read.
I'm recalling also his list of reads from before, that really just looked like he was making bland statements about each player, making sure that there was something scummy in the play from each one. This makes is super easy for scumTwisted to jump on whatever mislynch happens to crop up.
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I sort of agree with Shraeye here. Everyone has obviously done "scummy things" so far in this game. Just making a list of these things isn't useful for scumhunting. TA just made a list without coming to strong conclusions, and that could be what Shraeye said: Scum leaving themselves open to jump on a mislynch, saying "Oh, well I thought that this person was scummy earlier (see that post) so it's not weird that I'm on wagon."
I'm also concerned with his attitude towards Xeiron. Both days he has been saying "What Nkirbit is saying about Xeiron makes so much sense, every time he talks about it I find myself agreeing with him." But he still has a townread on Xeiron. Granted, this could either be scum!TA trying to push town!Xeiron without being scummy, or scum!TA trying to say he agrees with something that makes sense (because it wouldn't make sense for logical TA to disagree) without pushing a lynch on scum!Xeiron, or it could be town!TA having reservations about unknown!Xeiron. I don't think it necessarily is indicative of anything, but it is causing me concerns.
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For the meanwhile,
vote: Twistedarcher
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I'm also concerned with his attitude towards Xeiron. Both days he has been saying "What Nkirbit is saying about Xeiron makes so much sense, every time he talks about it I find myself agreeing with him." But he still has a townread on Xeiron. Granted, this could either be scum!TA trying to push town!Xeiron without being scummy, or scum!TA trying to say he agrees with something that makes sense (because it wouldn't make sense for logical TA to disagree) without pushing a lynch on scum!Xeiron, or it could be town!TA having reservations about unknown!Xeiron. I don't think it necessarily is indicative of anything, but it is causing me concerns.
Your case on Xeiron makes sense -- I understand completely where you're coming from, and I think you're being logical about it, and I see what you're thinking, etc. I just disagree that he's scum. I really do think that he's town. There's a chance he'll flip scum and look back and say "I can't believe I didn't see it, it was SO obvious, but I don't think he's pulling a massive gambit here. I just don't. That said, I don't think your case is one intended to drive a mislynch of town, I think it's a logic case, just one I disagree with. So I think you're towny for pushing the case, even though I think you're wrong.
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Theorel, what exactly is the case on me that you're voting for? That your wagon analysis matches me with the most people??
I really think we should be looking at Twisted more closely; I found another set of things that just doesn't add up. This weekend I should have more time to reread things comprehensively, but scanning through recent posts today I found this:
Yeah. I don't think that's unusual, for this point of the game. We have a decent percentage of scum in the people left, and so little information to work with, that I wouldn't be shocked by any person flipping scum. Apart from Eevee, I really have no strong town reads, and he's not THAT strong of a town read.
I'm suspicious of all of you!
I mean, everyone single person except for me has agreed that Xeiron is scummy right now.
These two statements don't jive together. what is Twitsed actually saying about xeiron? First, Twisted is the only guy who has a townread on xeiron; then, Eevee is his only town read.
I'm recalling also his list of reads from before, that really just looked like he was making bland statements about each player, making sure that there was something scummy in the play from each one. This makes is super easy for scumTwisted to jump on whatever mislynch happens to crop up.
Um, what?
Do you refute the statement that everyone except for me has stated, recently in Day 2, that they think Xeiron could be scum / they have a scum read on him? If you want, I can pull up specific quotes. But I don't get how you can find me scummy, for saying something that's not even an opinion, but 100% fact. You, Nkirbit, Ahoppy, Eevee, Chairs, and Theorel have all stated at some point today that Xeiron is scummy, and that you all could see yourselves voting him (or something similar, but with the exact same meaning.) This is a fact. You find me scummy for stating a fact?
Eevee is a sort of strong town read (not ironclad, though), in part because I have a town read on Xeiron. Now, I don't have a STRONG town read on Xeiron. But I do have a town read. It would surprise me if Eevee flipped scum. I don't think Xeiron will flip scum, but I wouldn't be surprised if he does.
I don't think Xeiron is scum. But would it surprise me if he is? No. Town read, not a strong town read. This is where I stand on Xeiron. I think it's suspicious that no one is defending him but me. It makes me think even more than he's town. He's an easy mislynch target, probably the easiest, and it only confirms my read when most people read him as scummy (scummy and anti-town are not the same).
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I don't buy Xeiron as the "easy mislynch target". No one except for me is voting for him! People have said he's scummy, and then drifted their conversation off elsewhere. The easy mislynch target gets voted for. Mail-mi picked up votes easily. Xeiron has not.
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I made a reads list, from scum to town, with things that made me think each person could be scum, and things that made that same person think they could be town. I have reasons for both for most of you. I don't get why including them is scummy.
What's your case on me, Shraeye? That I'm not sure who I want to vote for? Cause that's completely correct, I'm not sure. You are pushing me in a certain direction, though. I could see everyone in the game being scum, but I'm pretty sure I want to lynch from (Shraeye, Ahoppy, Chairs, Theorel) today. Which of those, I'm not quite sure yet.
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I also don't get Theorel's vote on Shraeye, or Eevee's for that matter.
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Do you refute the statement that everyone except for me has stated, recently in Day 2, that they think Xeiron could be scum / they have a scum read on him?
If this is what you think I was doing, you need to reread my post.
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Eevee - Obviously, he's going to be lower on this list than Xeiron. Given that I think Xeiron is probably town, I think Eevee is probably town, too. And I don't think there's a insignificant chance that Xeiron is scum, and his fellow scum are pushing on him right now with plans to immediately mislynch Eevee tomorrow. So this gives me even more of a town read on Eevee.
This is what you said about Eevee in your reads, and you have described him as a "strong townread". If this was a list of "Players we should not lynch today", I get why Eevee is here. But this isn't that list... it's a list of your reads. The only reason you have for Eevee here is in relation to Xeiron's claim... why do you have a "strong townread" on Eevee to the point where you would be surprised if he flipped scum, given that you don't have such a read on Xeiron and Xeiron's claim is your only listed reason for Eevee's townness.
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Because, I have a town read on Xeiron, and Eevee is going to be stronger than Xeiron, because I think there's a decent chance that if Xeiron is scum, Eevee is still town.
Everyone keeps saying that there's no way Xeiron would claim a cop result on Eevee, that's too crazy, he has no reason to do that. Yet they're okay accepting that Xeiron's crazy enough to do everything he's done.
Eevee will be a stronger read than Xeiron. Xeiron is a town read. Eevee's a stronger town read.
Did you not read the second sentence of that paragraph? It's all in there.
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Do you refute the statement that everyone except for me has stated, recently in Day 2, that they think Xeiron could be scum / they have a scum read on him?
If this is what you think I was doing, you need to reread my post.
Re-read it. I think I answered what you were accusing me of.
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If you think you answered it, then why did you also add the sarcastic paragraph about me finding you scummy for listing a fact?
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If you think you answered it, then why did you also add the sarcastic paragraph about me finding you scummy for listing a fact?
I don't know, I'm irritated that you and Nkirbit are asking me questions that are answered in quotes that you quoted, or ones that are on the same page. Or maybe I'm just a sarcastic person? You do the same all the day, I'd expect it to bother you less than others.
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Did I answer your question, or not?
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Well, I certainly wouldn't be shocked by a Xeiron-Eevee-third scumteam.
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I guess my issue is that if Xeiron was scum, I'd expect someone to be defending him. I understand how from everyone else's point of view, that could be me, though.
I know that scum may be bussing, but here's the thing -- it's going to be really, really, hard to lynch scum without a bus. That's probably 5/5 town who need to agree on the correct player. That being said, I don't think BOTH of Xeiron's teammates, if he's scum, would come out with scum reads on their partners.
Now I understand this is different for the rest of you, since I could be Xeiron's potential teammate. But from my point of view, the fact that no one else is defending Xeiron is a huge red flag, and makes me think he really is town.
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Saying that you have a scum read on someone, or that you can see the case on them, is a long way away from bussing.
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Saying that you have a scum read on someone, or that you can see the case on them, is a long way away from bussing.
Right. But it's much harder to switch from that to defending someone. I just think at least one of Xeiron's potential partners would have defended him right off the bat.
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If you think you answered it, then why did you also add the sarcastic paragraph about me finding you scummy for listing a fact?
I don't know, I'm irritated that you and Nkirbit are asking me questions that are answered in quotes that you quoted, or ones that are on the same page. Or maybe I'm just a sarcastic person? You do the same all the day, I'd expect it to bother you less than others.
Did I answer your question, or not?
I'm fickle. Sometimes sarcasm is there, sometimes not. I now know what you mean about xeiron.
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For everyone who believes Xeiron is town:
Why are you discounting the possibility of Xeiron being town and Eevee being scum, and Xeiron was so sure of his reads that he faked a cop claim to save Eevee, who he believed was town? That doesn't sound drastically more ridiculous than anything else we've seen.
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For everyone who believes Xeiron is town:
Why are you discounting the possibility of Xeiron being town and Eevee being scum, and Xeiron was so sure of his reads that he faked a cop claim to save Eevee, who he believed was town? That doesn't sound drastically more ridiculous than anything else we've seen.
Never considered this..
But...no. Just no. This should be outside the realm of possibility to the point where it doesn't get any consideration.
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So since nobody has posted in over 24 hours and we're on our bankable time, I think we need to get moving. I believe he is VLA, but I have been busier than I expected and have been unable to re-read shraye. But I know the case on Xerion, I like the case on xerion, and nobody is coming over here to sit on chairs with me. so Vote: Xerion
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Raerae and I are still moving in, so time is short; investing 3+ hours in rereads is super daunting right now. This is a huge reason why I keep railing against long threads; lack of rereads hurts us. I'm going to a baseball game now, and then will try to get on things this evening.
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I have been less active D2 than I should because of V/LA issues. now that I am back I will look over D2, answer questions I newer answered, and repeat my points with better reasoning.
Lets start with the mass-claim.
Here is how i want us to do it. (slightly changed since the first time I proposed it)
I want us to claim popcorn style in three rounds.
First I want everyone to flavorclaim and then declare who they sent items to.
Second I want everyone to claim items they have gotten.
Third I want everyone to claim what other powers they have used.
Unused powers, both starting powers and item combinations can be left unclaimed.
I am fine with starting. Actually I am fine with fully claiming everything before the rest of you, as long as you agree on the massclaim. That way I cannot use any information from you to build a fakeclaim for me.
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Resons for a massclaim:
(...)
The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players. So the question is, how do we differentiate them? Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them. So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.
Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us. But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town. Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive. (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum). Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.
2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum. But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong. Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum. They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right. Either when bussing or when defending a town player. They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing. They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum. This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.
(...)
Here Theorel writes down some good theory about how to differentiate town from scum. A massclaim can give us the meat we need to actually use these tecniques. 1a. and 2c. scum are not actually trying to catch scum, this makes them use night actions different from town players. They may investigative powers to find powerful town PR, they may send items to eachother, etc.
I also want to add a new differentiation to theorels post:
3. Different roles.
A mafia game should be more or less balanced. Some roles would work both as scum and town, but some work fine would either be pointless or would break the game if they changed allignment. We can use this to tell allignments if we can guarantee against fakeclaims.
An exemple of broken scum-roles would be Asherskys role in this game. A 2-shot mafia vigilante that maybee also can send his scumpartners vig-powers. Two or three mafia kills at night. No way that can be balanced. Shraeye claims in post #1603 to know of one more such player.
To sum up the reasons for a massclaim,
- We can catch scum in lying. With chairs' power, with other flavor powers, with other investigative powers or by noticing inconsitencies.
- We may find roles that have to be either town or scum to not break the game.
- We may find players with scummy flavour
- We may find interaction between players that may or may not indicate a scumteam.
- We may notice generally scummy or towny behaviour
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Well, I just don't see Xeiron doing this as scum.
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I have actually been thinking about it and think a mass claim could work. Mostly because we (are assuming) we are at mylo. I personally am having a hard time seeing who is/is not scummy. Like TA has said, I also suspect everyone. That's a problem. While I have people who I think are more likely to be scum than others, more information would be useful in narrowing it down further. But I think we do need xerion to full claim before we do any of that. I would even go so far as to say we will need him to do that before people will even agree to a mass claim. So I'm keeping my vote on xerion for now, until he at least claims. But one question: What do you mean by popcorn style?
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And Eevee, good to have you back, but could you let us know some more of your thoughts about what's going on?
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Popcorn style means one person claims and chooses the next person to claim.
Ahoppy, I don't know. I strongly think Xeiron is town, so I guess I actually support the massclaim plan he is proposing.
Other than that, "everyone is so scummy" sounds about right. I'm worried scum is trying to use xeiron as the one mislynch they need, but otoh this town is so unorganized (the thread is way too long!) and this game is so confusing that scum might just as well be sitting back and watching us get nowhere.
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v0v Let's massclaim then. At this point we really need to figure out our lynch, and maybe it'll help (and if not I think we've lost this one anyway).
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Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows. I will lie if the group chooses to do so.
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Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows. I will lie if the group chooses to do so.
Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.
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Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows. I will lie if the group chooses to do so.
Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.
If you do this, I'm in. We're on bank time and we need to finish this day out.
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Again, not participating in any mass claim that happens before Xeiron claims everything he knows. I will lie if the group chooses to do so.
Would you participate if I claim everything i know? Because I will do so if needed.
yes
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Good. I will claim in a few hours if TA, Shraeye or Theorel does not show up with some strong arguments why not to massclaim.
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I still am anti-massclaiming.
EVEN if we catch scum today, we still have a few more nights to go through. We've let scum know exactly who to kill, exactly who they need to fear, exactly who's harmless to them. We've directed scum's night kills to minimize risk, and that's best case scenario, mind you. We don't know scum's powers, but it could turn out this could be very, very, very beneficial to them.
FoS to everyone who said "Yeah, if Xeiron goes first, we'll claim everything. Major major FoS. Scum WANTS this information out there. Know everyone's item? Heck yeah, that sounds great!
The worst part, by far, is claiming used powers. The OP warned us exactly against this!! If I say I got item X and Y N0, and used power A on N1, well, you've claimed a combination, basically! Awesome! Do we want scum to know combinations? I reaaalllly don't think so.
What happens if you have a town player who claims they've received four items, but haven't used any yet? Guess who scum's going to want to kill tonight? If someone has no unused items, which would be pretty easy to determine from the claim, they won't be able to use their items until N3. But someone who has unused items would be a great NK target for scum.
I'd support this plan, if we didn't have to risk probably two more nights. Two more nights is wayyy too much time for scum to capitalize on this plan, even if we do catch scum through it. And I'm not convinced we are.
I think massclaiming is an awful awful awful idea.
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Seriously, I go away for a weekend, and come back to less than a page?
This means that there's a serious lack of scumhunting going on. You know who doesn't care if there's no scumhunting? Scum! I think scum are more than happy to sit back, let Xeiron's plan take place, let the bankable time dwindle away, and not say anything. I also think it means that we're not really close to finding scum, and none of them have underwent any serious suspicion today. Yet another reason I think Xeiron is town (although I couldn't disagree more with the massclaim idea).
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Eevee, what's the vote on Shraeye for? Although I think voting someone because they are on more "possible" scumteams is not a great reason for a vote, at least I understand where Theorel is coming from.
Why did you hop on with him, though? Do you agree with Theorel's logic, or is there a read there as well?
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Seriously, I go away for a weekend, and come back to less than a page?
This means that there's a serious lack of scumhunting going on. You know who doesn't care if there's no scumhunting? Scum! I think scum are more than happy to sit back, let Xeiron's plan take place, let the bankable time dwindle away, and not say anything. I also think it means that we're not really close to finding scum, and none of them have underwent any serious suspicion today. Yet another reason I think Xeiron is town (although I couldn't disagree more with the massclaim idea).
Fair enough.
I've been monitoring the thread, but am really out of ideas on this one.
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Eevee, what's the vote on Shraeye for? Although I think voting someone because they are on more "possible" scumteams is not a great reason for a vote, at least I understand where Theorel is coming from.
Why did you hop on with him, though? Do you agree with Theorel's logic, or is there a read there as well?
To be honest, this thread has sadly gotten way too long and cluttered for me to reread anything, so I only have my initial reactions. I voiced suspicion of shraeye already yesterday, basically for posting enough to not get called out but still not standing out much.
So, it was more like a prolonged feeling about shraeye, combined with theorel's analysis I agreed with and the fact I thought voting might get this day moving.
I absolutely agree about xeiron likely being town and this not going well. I just think we need to do something or we'll just never get anywhere, I don't have much faith in us winning this after the massclaim, but it has got to be better than this.
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Ahoppy and Chairs come of scummiest in their support of the massclaim, I think. Ahoppy especially, who thinks that Xeiron is scummy, and has his vote there, yet is still in support of a Xeiron-driven-massclaim. That makes NO sense to me -- Nkirbit, who also has Xeiron as his biggest scumread, is taking a much more genuine position, I think (that he doesn't trust Xeiron or anything Xeiron wants to do, and won't participate).
Nkirbit's defiance towards Xeiron reads consistent and genuine. I also think Eevee's response is less suspicious than either Ahoppy or Chairs (but I'm probably biased since I think Eevee is town).
Ahoppy's contradiction a pretty big one, to me. Scum!Ahoppy wants to support this plan, since it's a plan made by a town member (and I'm assuming that Ahoppy and Xeiron both wouldn't be town)-- so he wants to be on record supporting it. Yet he still is voting Xeiron. I just don't think voting someone, while accepting their plan as a good idea, makes sense. If you are town, and you think the person proposing the plan is scum, you must think that he has a reason for the massclaim that will be beneficial to scum, I think.
Vote: Ahoppy
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both wouldn't be town == both wouldn't be scum
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Seriously, I go away for a weekend, and come back to less than a page?
This means that there's a serious lack of scumhunting going on. You know who doesn't care if there's no scumhunting? Scum! I think scum are more than happy to sit back, let Xeiron's plan take place, let the bankable time dwindle away, and not say anything. I also think it means that we're not really close to finding scum, and none of them have underwent any serious suspicion today. Yet another reason I think Xeiron is town (although I couldn't disagree more with the massclaim idea).
Fair enough.
I've been monitoring the thread, but am really out of ideas on this one.
I'm in a similar place as chairs. I see how mass claiming is bad. I understand. However, I don't see catching scum on my own today without more info. And if we don't, we lose. If we claim, it gives us a better chance of surviving another day and we can see what happens tomorrow. For me: I think the probability of losing today is high, and claiming reduces that drastically. So, we claim, we survive longer (hopefully) in order of likely hood (no math, all gut)
No claim, no lynch, survive but not much better off tomorrow
No claim, mislynch and lose
Claim, lynch, survive
Claim, mislynch, lose
No claim, lynch, survive and well off
(Bottom 2 close)
So I'm choosing the more conservative option, hopefully surviving. If that garners your FoS, so be it.
PPE: 3 posts
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Vote: Ahoppy
That's a good good point.
I reread Ahoppy day 1, and eventually mistakenly supported some other lynches (EHFW for a bit until she convinced me, then mail-mi) because he had one or two longer posts (after a reread) that had a bunch of genuine sounding reads on them. Most of his posting fits a scum narrative very well, and this wouldn't be a first time some newer player was able to fool me as scum by making long posts.
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The biggest reason I'm supporting the mass claim, besides as noted above, is to get xerion to claim. If he's town, he's just doing more damage to town by sitting around saying he has this under control. If he's scum, hopefully catch him in a lie. I will continue to think he is scum until he claims, and if him claiming requires getting more information out there and possibly surviving then I think it helps us.
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The biggest reason I'm supporting the mass claim, besides as noted above, is to get xerion to claim. If he's town, he's just doing more damage to town by sitting around saying he has this under control. If he's scum, hopefully catch him in a lie. I will continue to think he is scum until he claims, and if him claiming requires getting more information out there and possibly surviving then I think it helps us.
But if he's scum, and advocating a mass claim, you realize you aren't going to catch him based on a massclaim, right?
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Soft Deadline: Friday, 8 pm
Does this work for people? We need to softdeadline. Yes, we probably must get this lynch right so we shouldn't rush it, but we need to keep in mind that even if we're right here, we still have more game left to play.
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Fine with that.
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The biggest reason I'm supporting the mass claim, besides as noted above, is to get xerion to claim. If he's town, he's just doing more damage to town by sitting around saying he has this under control. If he's scum, hopefully catch him in a lie. I will continue to think he is scum until he claims, and if him claiming requires getting more information out there and possibly surviving then I think it helps us.
But if he's scum, and advocating a mass claim, you realize you aren't going to catch him based on a massclaim, right?
I suppose... that does make sense. But this game needs to get moving. Nobody has a compelling case besides nkirbit, (and I like my chairs case) so either we need to mass claim or push a lynch through. Right now I have town reads on nkirbit and TA and eevee, null on theorel, TBD on shraye, and scum on chairs and xerion.
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Deadline works
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D1, Ahoppy was on the Eevee and mail-mi wagons, and not much else. It really does make sense that scum shifted the lynch away from him, and towards mail-mi D1, though. This would support there being 3-scum on wagon for mail-mi. The scum needed to pile on there, to make sure that was the lynch to go through, and not the Ahoppy lynch -- one scum hopping off wagon might have been enough to tilt the balance the other way.
Ahoppy being scum makes sense given the switch towards mail-mi at the end of D1 on a weak case.
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The biggest reason I'm supporting the mass claim, besides as noted above, is to get xerion to claim. If he's town, he's just doing more damage to town by sitting around saying he has this under control. If he's scum, hopefully catch him in a lie. I will continue to think he is scum until he claims, and if him claiming requires getting more information out there and possibly surviving then I think it helps us.
But if he's scum, and advocating a mass claim, you realize you aren't going to catch him based on a massclaim, right?
I suppose... that does make sense. But this game needs to get moving. Nobody has a compelling case besides nkirbit, (and I like my chairs case) so either we need to mass claim or push a lynch through. Right now I have town reads on nkirbit and TA and eevee, null on theorel, TBD on shraye, and scum on chairs and xerion.
Wait. You think Xeiron is scum, but Eevee is town? I need to look back and see if you've advocated the idea of this before, or if you believed that if Xeiron is scum, Eevee is also scum.
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As I just said: I'll believe the nkirbit case until xerion claims. I haven't said anything about it before, I just remembered Eevee had a cop result say he was town, I just forgot it was xerion who said it. So, forget that, Eevee is scummy also until xerion claims, but not as scummy. He hasn't done anything to make him seem scummy to me, unless xerion is scum.
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If I were scum, why would I switch to mail-mibas an easy case and not switch to the efhw case earlier?
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Couldn't find anything specific on Ahoppy's views on Xeiron/Eevee.
Found this post, though:
This long post is Ahoppy's view on mail-mi, and why he's scummy. On re-read, knowing mail-mi's alignment, it looks sort of like he's trying to justify a vote he knows is a bad one ("Here's all the reasons mail-mi is scummy..." is looking for reasons to justify a vote, rather than a more neutral read trying to determine scumminess).
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I will freely admit that is what I did. Am I happy? No. Was bit the wrong choice? Yep, absolutely. I knew lynching me meant lynching town, 100%. There was a lower chance of that lynching mm, so I went for it. The day was at 63 pages and I just wanted it to end. I felt like that was best for town. But if mm's claim was compelling, I may have switched off him. But chairs never gave me that chance. As theorel posted earlier: every town directed lynch gives us info. Since no lynch wasn't happening, I went for mm. Also, I didn't expect half if town to die over night, so I figured even if he was town, we could afford one mislynch. Obviously, I was wrong.
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Soft Deadline: Friday, 8 pm
Does this work for people? We need to softdeadline. Yes, we probably must get this lynch right so we shouldn't rush it, but we need to keep in mind that even if we're right here, we still have more game left to play.
Works.
I will freely admit that is what I did. Am I happy? No. Was bit the wrong choice? Yep, absolutely. I knew lynching me meant lynching town, 100%. There was a lower chance of that lynching mm, so I went for it. The day was at 63 pages and I just wanted it to end. I felt like that was best for town. But if mm's claim was compelling, I may have switched off him. But chairs never gave me that chance. As theorel posted earlier: every town directed lynch gives us info. Since no lynch wasn't happening, I went for mm. Also, I didn't expect half if town to die over night, so I figured even if he was town, we could afford one mislynch. Obviously, I was wrong.
I don't think anybody expected all the madness that happened on N1. I would've rather waited for a claim if I'd had any thought that we'd hit mylo on D2 (I figured a mislynch wouldn't kill us, and christ we were taking a long damn time to pick a lynch D1).
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Vote Count 2.2
xeiron (1) nkirbit
shraeye (1) theorel
chairs (1) AHoppy
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy (2) Twistedarcher, Eevee
Not Voting (2) xeiron, chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
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I agree with TA that massclaiming is horrible, and am suspicious of the people supporting it as well. Massclaiming may be good if we only had one of scum to catch, but we don't. Everyone who is supporting a massclaim looks like they have the goal of "We need to get a lynch at all costs today", and this is WRONG. We're not playing to survive until tomorrow... we're playing to win the game. If we have to take a route that leaves us with a higher chance of a mislynch today but much, much better off in the long run, that's the route we should be taking. And I think massclaiming takes us the wrong direction.
I will admit that I was kind of burnt out by day1 here, and have been struggling in my attempts to read. I am uncomfortable with Ahoppy and Chairs for jumping on the massclaim train, because I think it's beneficial for scum more so than town. At this point, I'm okay with the Ahoppy lynch. We probably made a mistake not lynching him day1. I trust TA here, he's my strongest town read, think he is making good points, and am comfortable sheeping that vote.
Vote: Ahoppy
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If I were scum, why would I switch to mail-mibas an easy case and not switch to the efhw case earlier?
Because the mail-mi lynch was much more likely to go through -- people were wary of the EFHW case, and how hard Ash was driving it.
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I agree with TA that massclaiming is horrible, and am suspicious of the people supporting it as well. Massclaiming may be good if we only had one of scum to catch, but we don't. Everyone who is supporting a massclaim looks like they have the goal of "We need to get a lynch at all costs today", and this is WRONG. We're not playing to survive until tomorrow... we're playing to win the game. If we have to take a route that leaves us with a higher chance of a mislynch today but much, much better off in the long run, that's the route we should be taking. And I think massclaiming takes us the wrong direction.
This is a much more well-written way of exactly what I was trying to say. This is exactly why I oppose massclaiming.
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I agree with TA that massclaiming is horrible, and am suspicious of the people supporting it as well. Massclaiming may be good if we only had one of scum to catch, but we don't. Everyone who is supporting a massclaim looks like they have the goal of "We need to get a lynch at all costs today", and this is WRONG. We're not playing to survive until tomorrow... we're playing to win the game. If we have to take a route that leaves us with a higher chance of a mislynch today but much, much better off in the long run, that's the route we should be taking. And I think massclaiming takes us the wrong direction.
This is how I feel as well; massclaiming can be a good way to get a final scumlynch, when one persons claims don't match with others. But as long as there are multiple scum, I feel like their claims will end up being more believable because they've had a chance to craft a narrative for their actions in coordination with eachother. In MeanGirls mafia, Eevee/yuma sealed the win for their team easily because yuma's fakeclaim backed up eevee's fakeclaim, and made town inherently believe them more.
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I agree with TA that massclaiming is horrible, and am suspicious of the people supporting it as well. Massclaiming may be good if we only had one of scum to catch, but we don't. Everyone who is supporting a massclaim looks like they have the goal of "We need to get a lynch at all costs today", and this is WRONG. We're not playing to survive until tomorrow... we're playing to win the game. If we have to take a route that leaves us with a higher chance of a mislynch today but much, much better off in the long run, that's the route we should be taking. And I think massclaiming takes us the wrong direction.
This is how I feel as well; massclaiming can be a good way to get a final scumlynch, when one persons claims don't match with others. But as long as there are multiple scum, I feel like their claims will end up being more believable because they've had a chance to craft a narrative for their actions in coordination with eachother. In MeanGirls mafia, Eevee/yuma sealed the win for their team easily because yuma's fakeclaim backed up eevee's fakeclaim, and made town inherently believe them more.
Alright. You all have convinced me that massclaiming at this point is not the best path to go down. I did not understand how to use it effectively, since the one other game I was in (mean girls) it was not used to towns benefit. Still keeping my vote on Xerion, but withdrawing my intent to mass claim.
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also, the deadline on Friday is good. I can finish my full rereads before then.
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Innovation's a hell of a beast to full reread, but I will also try to put in my two pence prior to Friday. I hadn't thought about the multiple scum angle of fakeclaims, so I'll defer to the (good) argument there and also unsupport massclaiming.
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I still am anti-massclaiming.
EVEN if we catch scum today, we still have a few more nights to go through. We've let scum know exactly who to kill, exactly who they need to fear, exactly who's harmless to them. We've directed scum's night kills to minimize risk, and that's best case scenario, mind you. We don't know scum's powers, but it could turn out this could be very, very, very beneficial to them.
FoS to everyone who said "Yeah, if Xeiron goes first, we'll claim everything. Major major FoS. Scum WANTS this information out there. Know everyone's item? Heck yeah, that sounds great!
The worst part, by far, is claiming used powers. The OP warned us exactly against this!! If I say I got item X and Y N0, and used power A on N1, well, you've claimed a combination, basically! Awesome! Do we want scum to know combinations? I reaaalllly don't think so.
What happens if you have a town player who claims they've received four items, but haven't used any yet? Guess who scum's going to want to kill tonight? If someone has no unused items, which would be pretty easy to determine from the claim, they won't be able to use their items until N3. But someone who has unused items would be a great NK target for scum.
I'd support this plan, if we didn't have to risk probably two more nights. Two more nights is wayyy too much time for scum to capitalize on this plan, even if we do catch scum through it. And I'm not convinced we are.
I think massclaiming is an awful awful awful idea.
I want to catch three scum today, not just one. If we do scum does not get much benefit out of knowing combinations. We can just keep all the items within the town. Even if we only find one scum, I think we will find one or more IC after the massclaim. We can send good items to them.
Great known NK targets = Great doctor targets. I am more worried about a doctor being found and eliminated imediately.
This is how I feel as well; massclaiming can be a good way to get a final scumlynch, when one persons claims don't match with others. But as long as there are multiple scum, I feel like their claims will end up being more believable because they've had a chance to craft a narrative for their actions in coordination with eachother. In MeanGirls mafia, Eevee/yuma sealed the win for their team easily because yuma's fakeclaim backed up eevee's fakeclaim, and made town inherently believe them more.
Yes, we have to be aware that scum can back each other up with fakeclaims, That is part of the puzzle we have to solve, and I think we can see through such fakeclaims. Eevee/yuma did win that game, but it was not a foolproof plan and several people in the speccy-thread saw through their claim.
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Right now I have a theory of TA, Theorel and Ahoppy as a scumteam
I have some specific questions a massclaim would answer that would strengthen or weaken my theory.
Since everyone opose massclaims I will ask them directly instead.
Shraeye, are you refering to Chairs in the quote above?
Eevee, are you Alexander Graham Bell?
Chairs, did you start with paper in your inventory.
I do not know the answers to the above questions, but if the answers is yes, yes and no my theory is probably correct, and I am closing in on making a scumteam-case. If not I need to reconsider.
I would also like everyone to watch their votes to stop quick-lynches from happening.
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No, sorry.
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You are doing so much rolefishing, Xeiron
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Some claiming from me as I think it is claiming time and to show you that I am not asking others to claim to work on my own claim.
I will leave out some parts that affects other players.
Flavour name. Harry Soref.
I am a one-shot cop. I used this power on eevee N0. He showed town.
I have sent Eevee two items, one N0 and one N1.
I got no items N0, but I did get paper and a cooling unit N1. I got no pen, and I no longer thinks a pen exists.
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Why did you send Eevee an item N0 before you knew he was town?
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Furthermore, why did you claim that you couldn't be NKed during day1? Nothing you have said indicates why this would be the case. Were you lying?
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Why did you send Eevee an item N0 before you knew he was town?
Because one of the items is useless without the other, and because I figured I could have him lynched D1 with a positive cop result.
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Furthermore, why did you claim that you couldn't be NKed during day1? Nothing you have said indicates why this would be the case. Were you lying?
I said "No problem. I will or have already taken care of this." and yes that was a gambit. I figured that either, I would be so towny at the end of the day that I would be a obvious doctor/watcher target or that I would be so scummy that town would keep me alive trying to lynch my the next day, or that scum wouldn't take the chance on killing me because of my claim. I never had any powers to help me. That said scum probably wont kill me tonight either, as that will make Eevee IC.
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No, sorry.
That is a problem as it make Shraeye more likely to be scum.
I am not sure about this, but I think Shraeye can doublevote .
If he can and is scum, scum controls 4 of the 5 needed votes. That means one town on town vote and scum can quicklynch for the win.
According to the votecount there has to be at least one town on town vote right now.
Can everyone please unvote immediately?
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unvote
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No, sorry.
That is a problem as it make Shraeye more likely to be scum.
I am not sure about this, but I think Shraeye can doublevote .
If he can and is scum, scum controls 4 of the 5 needed votes. That means one town on town vote and scum can quicklynch for the win.
According to the votecount there has to be at least one town on town vote right now.
Can everyone please unvote immediately?
If you are correct, then Shraeye could have voted Ahoppy for the win, assuming Shraeye is scum and Ahoppy is town.
So, if you are correct, we can assume that this isn't true.
But, the more important question, how could you possiblyyyyyyyy know this.
You are a 1-shot cop. You were sent no items N0, so you couldn't have used any item powers yet, correct?
This isn't adding up.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
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If you are correct, then Shraeye could have voted Ahoppy for the win, assuming Shraeye is scum and Ahoppy is town.
So, if you are correct, we can assume that this isn't true.
I thought the same.
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unvote
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Right now I have a theory of TA, Theorel and Ahoppy as a scumteam
I have some specific questions a massclaim would answer that would strengthen or weaken my theory.
Since everyone opose massclaims I will ask them directly instead.
Shraeye, are you refering to Chairs in the quote above?
Eevee, are you Alexander Graham Bell?
Chairs, did you start with paper in your inventory.
I do not know the answers to the above questions, but if the answers is yes, yes and no my theory is probably correct, and I am closing in on making a scumteam-case. If not I need to reconsider.
I would also like everyone to watch their votes to stop quick-lynches from happening.
Yes
Also,
In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
I sent paper to Shraeye N0
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If you are correct, then Shraeye could have voted Ahoppy for the win, assuming Shraeye is scum and Ahoppy is town.
So, if you are correct, we can assume that this isn't true.
I thought the same.
So...they're both scum?
If Chairs has paper, he should possibly be able to confirm what paper does, right? Chairs, can you confirm if it's doublevoter or tracker?
I hate that we're doing this, but it's out there, so might as well back the best of it and sort this out.
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Wait no don't confirm that
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
He don't know, because he does not have it in the inventory.
If he knew he wouldn't go claiming paper so early.
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
He don't know, because he does not have it in the inventory.
If he knew he wouldn't go claiming paper so early.
He just said that he did in fact start with it in his inventory
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
He don't know, because he does not have it in the inventory.
If he knew he wouldn't go claiming paper so early.
He just said that he did in fact start with it in his inventory
Oh, read too fast there.
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You were expecting yes, yes, no, and assuming that Shraeye was talking about Chairs, your answers are yes, no, yes. Does this move you away from a TA/Ahoppy/Theorel scum team? Where does it leave you next?
Also, why me, and why Theorel, and why Ahoppy? Your claiming, and item knowledge, seems to be related to Chairs/Shraeye. Yet your initial scumteam was neither of these people.
I just don't follow what you're doing here, at all.
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
Then, yes I think he shoud say so. Doublevoters can be dangerous if we do not know about them.
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Sorry, wasn't sure if it's better to confirm, but I want Chairs to see that before he posts. Is it better for Chairs to post exactly what Paper does, if he knows it?
Then, yes I think he shoud say so. Doublevoters can be dangerous if we do not know about them.
Would it make more sense to hear it from Shraeye first, and then have Chairs confirm/deny it, if we're going to go down this route?
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You were expecting yes, yes, no, and assuming that Shraeye was talking about Chairs, your answers are yes, no, yes. Does this move you away from a TA/Ahoppy/Theorel scum team? Where does it leave you next?
Also, why me, and why Theorel, and why Ahoppy? Your claiming, and item knowledge, seems to be related to Chairs/Shraeye. Yet your initial scumteam was neither of these people.
I just don't follow what you're doing here, at all.
I am trying to find 5 town, not three scum.
First I know that me and eevee are town.
Second, I am quite sure chairs is town. This has to do with the paper claim, RVS vote on Shraeye D1 based on flavour-cop-claim, getting to the cop-claim d2 and because doublevoting for him and his scummates, would be to powerful.
I thought I found a setup where Shraeye and Nkirbit were town, That would fit with eevee being A.G. Bell, when that is not thew case, I am not sure where it moves me.
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So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / ??? (with me as the ???)
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So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / ? (with me as the ?)
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I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.
I would like Theorel to go next
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Wait. So say paper IS a doublevote, and Shraeye has it. Why does this make him scum?
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Or are you saying Shraeye is scum, or town? Or reserving judgement for a massclaim (which is still a terrible idea and still shouldn't happen, but it may be too late now)
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So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / ??? (with me as the ???)
I thought I could explain everything by Shraeye being town and Eevee being Bell. I couldn't, but that does not necessary make Shraeye scum. Actually,m I am not sure about Shraeye at all, but I choose to warn about him according to "better safe than sorry"
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Wait. So say paper IS a doublevote, and Shraeye has it. Why does this make him scum?
It does not, but it makes him dangerous if he is scum.
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So you think the team is definitely Shraeye / Ahoppy / ??? (with me as the ???)
I thought I could explain everything by Shraeye being town and Eevee being Bell. I couldn't, but that does not necessary make Shraeye scum. Actually,m I am not sure about Shraeye at all, but I choose to warn about him according to "better safe than sorry"
Fair enough.
It could just be that paper is tracker, but given Shraeye's warning, that doesn't make sense.
The fact that he didn't vote Ahoppy, despite the fact that he had a scum read on Ahoppy D1 and reiterated it D2, is interesting, though.
If he's scum, and Ahoppy is town, he has an incentive to vote there for the hammer.
If he's town, and he thinks Ahoppy is scum (which he said), he still has some incentive there, although he also has incentive to wait for more information.
If they're both scum, he has no incentive to vote.
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Is all your information out there, Xeiron?
From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)
Do you have anything else that you're saving up, or is everything out there?
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Is all your information out there, Xeiron?
From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)
Do you have anything else that you're saving up, or is everything out there?
I have not told you my items yet. I think I will leave that to Eevee in a massclaim, because if we do not get there, it probably should not be claimed.
I also have more on Chairs that helped me guess that Shraeye has paper, Chairs investigated me N1 and because he is a "sharing flavor cop", I got his flavor name as well. That means Chairs investigated shraeye N0 and it makes sense for a cop to investigate and send items to the same person.
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From what I've seen, given what you've said, you have no way to call a scumteam. The only information you have is on Shraeye/Chairs (which seems solid enough). I don't see how you could differentiate between TA/Theorel/Nkirbit/Ahoppy based on claims, though. Typing that out though, if you think you can get 3 scum in 4 players, that's pretty nice. If you can prove this, and if we can believe that Chairs/Shraeye are both town (and I don't know how we'd be able to determine Shraeye's alignment, really.)
What I have to call a scumteam is three townies and these tools:
Resons for a massclaim:
(...)
The goal of scumhunting is to differentiate town players from scum players. So the question is, how do we differentiate them? Well, in order to differentiate them, we have to know what's different about them. So, what's different about them?
1. They have a different goal.
2. They have additional information.
Now, consciously they are trying to hide both of those facts from the rest of us. But just because they're trying to hide it, doesn't mean we can't look for it.
Those two things are kind of broad, so I break them down a bit.
1. Different Goal:
a. They're trying to lynch town. Here's where we look for flimsy cases, misdirection, votes on town players.
b. They're trying to survive. (Note: Town doesn't need to survive as badly as scum). Here's where we look for things which don't help town, but help the player avoid lynches.
2. Different Information (ultimately this is just knowing who's town and who's scum. But I'm going to talk about specific situations)
a. They know when they're wrong. Either trying to direct town to a town-lynch, or defend scum. They know everything they're saying is false, and sometimes that ingenuineness comes through or they try to find ways to cover their poor reasoning.
b. They know when they're right. Either when bussing or when defending a town player. They know that they're right, and so sometimes they show excessive conviction on a flimsy basis.
c. They know who their partners are, and what they're doing. They can avoid or join wagons accordingly, and often will, because the names of their partners will stand out to them.
d. They know they're scum. This knowledge can make them act differently from normal.
(...)
Here Theorel writes down some good theory about how to differentiate town from scum. A massclaim can give us the meat we need to actually use these tecniques. 1a. and 2c. scum are not actually trying to catch scum, this makes them use night actions different from town players. They may investigative powers to find powerful town PR, they may send items to eachother, etc.
I also want to add a new differentiation to theorels post:
3. Different roles.
A mafia game should be more or less balanced. Some roles would work both as scum and town, but some work fine would either be pointless or would break the game if they changed allignment. We can use this to tell allignments if we can guarantee against fakeclaims.
An exemple of broken scum-roles would be Asherskys role in this game. A 2-shot mafia vigilante that maybee also can send his scumpartners vig-powers. Two or three mafia kills at night. No way that can be balanced. Shraeye claims in post #1603 to know of one more such player.
To sum up the reasons for a massclaim,
- We can catch scum in lying. With chairs' power, with other flavor powers, with other investigative powers or by noticing inconsitencies.
- We may find roles that have to be either town or scum to not break the game.
- We may find players with scummy flavour
- We may find interaction between players that may or may not indicate a scumteam.
- We may notice generally scummy or towny night action behaviour
What I need is data from a massclaim to use these tools on.
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It is now 5.am her so time to sleep. I want to find Theorel's claim when I come back.
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I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.
I would like Theorel to go next
No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.
Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee. He received paper and cooling unit. (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)
chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.
Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell. (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)
btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."
No and NO. FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now. I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.
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So, theorel, how do you suggest we proceed?
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By scumhunting as per normal. Analyzing interactions, etc. Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.
For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast. That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.
I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago. I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron
If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims. Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).
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Well, I am frustrated, xeiron. I thought I was pretty clear that I was intent on saying nothing about my powers. Imagine for a moment this scenario: Mafia is excited because they see a win via-endgame. They throw down a scummy quickhammer. They get screwed the next day because they weren't expecting a double voter. The power of doublevoter is how they mess with mafia's knowledge-control of the game. Now they can just factor that in.
Theorel's correct on how we should proceed; we need to focus on lynching our first scum, and having a solid network of reads so that whoever's left can connect the dots back to the other two.
I'm still chugging through my rereads, I got a few done, but I really need to consider all reads at once, instead of just jumping at the first one to look scummy and not thinking about the rest.
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By scumhunting as per normal. Analyzing interactions, etc. Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.
For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast. That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.
I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago. I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron
If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims. Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).
Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.
The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.
Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?
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Well, I am frustrated, xeiron. I thought I was pretty clear that I was intent on saying nothing about my powers. Imagine for a moment this scenario: Mafia is excited because they see a win via-endgame. They throw down a scummy quickhammer. They get screwed the next day because they weren't expecting a double voter. The power of doublevoter is how they mess with mafia's knowledge-control of the game. Now they can just factor that in.
Theorel's correct on how we should proceed; we need to focus on lynching our first scum, and having a solid network of reads so that whoever's left can connect the dots back to the other two.
I'm still chugging through my rereads, I got a few done, but I really need to consider all reads at once, instead of just jumping at the first one to look scummy and not thinking about the rest.
I would gladly have keept your secret if I could trust that you are town. But I am sure that you see the problem with the scenario you describe if you assume you are among the scumteam. That is a risk I did not want to take.
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By scumhunting as per normal. Analyzing interactions, etc. Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.
For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast. That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.
I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago. I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron
If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims. Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).
Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.
The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.
Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?
This is completely false.
Chairs gave you the paper N1. You'd combine it N1. You'd use the power N2.
Either your nights work differently than mine do, or you are lying to prove a point.
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Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.
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Could we please get an updated official vote count?
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I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.
I would like Theorel to go next
No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.
Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee. He received paper and cooling unit. (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)
chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.
Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell. (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)
btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."
No and NO. FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now. I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.
I was against all that stuff getting out there. But since it's out there, we might as well make the best of it, right? It's no use saying "I am angry this got out, I'm going to ignore the new info"
It's out there, scum knows it. It sucks. But we might as well use it to its full ability, now that its out there.
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By scumhunting as per normal. Analyzing interactions, etc. Not trying to dig too deeply into our roles and items, in order to make scum's job harder.
For example: AHoppy hit three votes super-fast. That's making him look more town (to me), and TwistedArcher/Eevee/nkirbit look a bit scummier.
I'm less convinced regarding shraeye over twistedarcher than I was a few pages ago. I'm more convinced that xeiron is scum.
vote: xeiron
If the team is xeiron/chairs/Eevee then he's basically steered us directly into the other players with his claims. Although shraeye might be able to confirm/deny one of those claims (if he's tried to use paper by itself).
Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.
The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.
Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?
Up until shraeye's post, it could have been a lie. But regardless, nkirbit was sitting on you for ages, so either one of you is scum or there is no concern for a quicklynch. I do not believe that nkirbit is scum, so either way it works for me.
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This is completely false.
Chairs gave you the paper N1. You'd combine it N1. You'd use the power N2.
Either your nights work differently than mine do, or you are lying to prove a point.
I do not have the doublevote yet, so I am not sure of how it works but I think it is this way.
Chairs gave me the paper N1. I'd combine it N1. I can now use the power, but the 'using power stage' of N1 has passed. I can use it D2 since doublevoting is a daypower.
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This is completely false.
Chairs gave you the paper N1. You'd combine it N1. You'd use the power N2.
Either your nights work differently than mine do, or you are lying to prove a point.
I do not have the doublevote yet, so I am not sure of how it works but I think it is this way.
Chairs gave me the paper N1. I'd combine it N1. I can now use the power, but the 'using power stage' of N1 has passed. I can use it D2 since doublevoting is a daypower.
But you don't have the doublevote!
So you're see how "We can't be the scumteam because we'd have doublevoted" is an invalid defense?
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Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.
No, but a possible scumteam controlling enough votes to insta-win, and realizing they do so, and still not using it is insta-not-the-scumteam.
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Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.
No, but a possible scumteam controlling enough votes to insta-win, and realizing they do so, and still not using it is insta-not-the-scumteam.
Or they haven't all been online at the same time, or don't want to coordinate it and risk an unvote that would out them as the scumteam.
Basically, what you're saying here, is that either Ahoppy is scum (since scum would have no incentive to double vote hammer), or Shraeye and Chairs are both town (since they would have no incentive to double vote hammer)
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This is completely false.
Chairs gave you the paper N1. You'd combine it N1. You'd use the power N2.
Either your nights work differently than mine do, or you are lying to prove a point.
I do not have the doublevote yet, so I am not sure of how it works but I think it is this way.
Chairs gave me the paper N1. I'd combine it N1. I can now use the power, but the 'using power stage' of N1 has passed. I can use it D2 since doublevoting is a daypower.
But you don't have the doublevote!
So you're see how "We can't be the scumteam because we'd have doublevoted" is an invalid defense?
So you think that chairs, as my scumpartner, would not have told me what paper is used for? Or do you think I would guess wrong just for the hell of it?
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Well I really think, judging by what we know about powers, that having gotten paper D1, there's no way you'd be able to doublevote until D3.
But I suppose you have a point about not knowing what paper does. You could just be lying, though
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Well I really think, judging by what we know about powers, that having gotten paper D1, there's no way you'd be able to doublevote until D3.
But I suppose you have a point about not knowing what paper does. You could just be lying, though
Would you like me to tell you exactly how paper works (at least, by itself)? Would that be of assistance to town, or scum?
Obviously I'll need multiple people to weigh in.
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Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.
No, but a possible scumteam controlling enough votes to insta-win, and realizing they do so, and still not using it is insta-not-the-scumteam.
Or they haven't all been online at the same time, or don't want to coordinate it and risk an unvote that would out them as the scumteam.
Basically, what you're saying here, is that either Ahoppy is scum (since scum would have no incentive to double vote hammer), or Shraeye and Chairs are both town (since they would have no incentive to double vote hammer)
They could have coordinated in their QT N1. This discussion we are having now would be nothing new to such a scumteam. No need to wait a week into D2.
I have already stated quite clearly that I think Chairs is town.
And yes, I think that Ahoppy is scum, and/or Shraeye is town. I just don't know witch yet.
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Someone controlling a double vote and not using it does not make them insta-town, btw.
No, but a possible scumteam controlling enough votes to insta-win, and realizing they do so, and still not using it is insta-not-the-scumteam.
Or they haven't all been online at the same time, or don't want to coordinate it and risk an unvote that would out them as the scumteam.
Basically, what you're saying here, is that either Ahoppy is scum (since scum would have no incentive to double vote hammer), or Shraeye and Chairs are both town (since they would have no incentive to double vote hammer)
They could have coordinated in their QT N1. This discussion we are having now would be nothing new to such a scumteam. No need to wait a week into D2.
I have already stated quite clearly that I think Chairs is town.
And yes, I think that Ahoppy is scum, and/or Shraeye is town. I just don't know witch yet.
Well, not really. Because there's no way scum could have expected 3 deaths. If Ash doesn't shoot EFHW, we're left with 10 players, not 8, and there would be no quickhammering.
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Well I really think, judging by what we know about powers, that having gotten paper D1, there's no way you'd be able to doublevote until D3.
But I suppose you have a point about not knowing what paper does. You could just be lying, though
Would you like me to tell you exactly how paper works (at least, by itself)? Would that be of assistance to town, or scum?
Obviously I'll need multiple people to weigh in.
I think it's pretty clear already what paper does
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Well I really think, judging by what we know about powers, that having gotten paper D1, there's no way you'd be able to doublevote until D3.
But I suppose you have a point about not knowing what paper does. You could just be lying, though
Would you like me to tell you exactly how paper works (at least, by itself)? Would that be of assistance to town, or scum?
Obviously I'll need multiple people to weigh in.
I think it's pretty clear already what paper does
Yes, but to be clear - doublevoter is not a power you have to activate at night. In other words, if Shraeye and I were scum, we could coordinate and hammer anybody today that got a single vote, just by voting and then doublevoting. I'm basically convinced Shraeye is town at this point. I'm town. Xeiron is either town or his scumteam is kicking themselves for his play.
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(to be fair, I'm assuming in that statement that Shraeye successfully has doublevoter - but if we were scum, I'd have definitely told him to guess that, right?)
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Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.
The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.
Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?
The underlined portion makes it sound like you currently have double-vote, but in this quote
I do not have the doublevote yet,
You say you don't.
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So there's a very real possibility Xeiron has doublevote and is lying about it?
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So there's a very real possibility Xeiron has doublevote and is lying about it?
Absolutely.
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So there's a very real possibility Xeiron has doublevote and is lying about it?
Absolutely.
Which would imply a Xeiron/Ahoppy scumteam. Nkirbit and Eevee wouldn't make sense as the third, nor Chairs, since he could doublevote as well presumably. As could Shraeye, possibly.
So Xeiron/Ahoppy/Theorel?
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Of course, it's possible that Xeiron simply doesn't have doublevote, as he claimed.
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Xeiron/Chairs/Eevee is impossible.
If xeiron/chairs/Eevee is a scumteam we would just lynch someone right now as we control the five votes we need to lynch. (Chairs and I would be doublevoters). And we have the 4 votes we need tomorrow (should the NK fail) (Chairs send paper to Eevee), and the day after that, until we win. The only way to stop us would be to organize a quicklynch faster that us. That is very hard without a QT.
The same could happend for any scumteam with Chairs in it.
Fact is, there is only one possible scumteam containing Chairs. That is xeiron/chairs/Shraeye, because then all this doublevoting could just be a big lie.
Your vote on me makes me concerned, Theorel. You do not seem to worry about a quicklynch at all. Does that means you know your vote is not town on town?
The underlined portion makes it sound like you currently have double-vote, but in this quote
I do not have the doublevote yet,
You say you don't.
I don't, but I think it is no way i would not if I was scum with Chairs.
So there's a very real possibility Xeiron has doublevote and is lying about it?
There would be nothing to stop me from lying about it, so you should assume that I can doublevote if I am scum.
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Or we shouldn't assume anything if you're scum, because of course we're not going to listen to you!
Why did we claim again?
Xeiron-Ahoppy make sense as scum partners. Both times Ahoppy has come under pressure (day 1 him and Eevee were looking the likely wagons, day2 I just just moved my vote from Xeiron to Ahoppy) Xeiron has stepped in and redirected us elsewhere.. towards mail-mi day1, and who knows where today. The point is, both times, we were no longer talking about Ahoppy. Faking a cop claim on Eevee actually makes sense in this regard: He still managed to move the discussion off of Ahoppy, but without tying himself to his scumpartner. Of course, Eevee could be his partner too.
I'm still most sure about Xeiron, but Ahoppy is the name that makes most sense to me as a possible member of either a scumteam with Xeiron or a scumteam without Xeiron. He's pretty much the only name that makes sense in both possibilities (Others could, obviously, but Ahoppy is the likeliest in my mind).
I would support either a Xeiron or Ahoppy lynch at this point.
And again: Xeiron has yet to claim his "plan". I don't necessarily want him to, but I'm still not revealing a thing. I think we should stop claiming.
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I think we should stop claiming.
I strongly agree. I was thinking in the shower just now and realized that even a MYLO mislynch doesn't automatically mean scum win, because we potentially can use protective roles successfully to buy another day. So scum REALLY benefit from pinpointing the remaining powers that town have. I see no reason to help them with this whatsoever.
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Does anyone else think that saying "so you should assume X if I am scum" is as scummy as I do? Or is my opinion of Xeiron permanently tainted at this point and I'm just unable to look at him objectively?
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Does anyone else think that saying "so you should assume X if I am scum" is as scummy as I do? Or is my opinion of Xeiron permanently tainted at this point and I'm just unable to look at him objectively?
Yes to both questions
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More votes, less talking, people! We need to move this game forward, soft deadline isn't THAT far away, and we're not really near a lynch.
It looks like we're not going to proceed with this massclaim. We've said too much already, probably, but what's done is done.
I agree with Xeiron's assessment that Chairs is probably town from this. Giving scum doublevoter is pretty unbalanced, I think.
I don't agree necessarily that Shraeye is town, although it's probablyyy more likely. If scum has access to double-voting, they want to keep that all hushed up as possible.
I am still happy with my vote on Ahoppy. I still believe Xeiron, and by extension Eevee, are town. If I'm wrong on Xeiron, Ahoppy remains a possibility for his partner as well, as Nkirbit says.
I know we're wary of a doublevote. But people need to start getting serious opinions out there. This game is stalling hard D2, and even if we're not voting, we need to know where people stand. Soft deadline's not far away, and right now, we're not close to a lynch.
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I feel like one of Ahoppy or theorel is on the scumteam.
I'm hard-pressed to say which is more likely.
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I feel like one of Ahoppy or theorel is on the scumteam.
I'm hard-pressed to say which is more likely.
If Xeiron is town, which I think he is, there's a lot of scenarios where they both make sense as the scum team.
I think you and Shraeye both come off townier from the paper fiasco, so townreads on you both. I trust Xeiron, and Eevee. This leaves me with Ahoppy/Theorel/Nkirbit as the most likely team.
Probably is, I have a town read on Nkirbit. So maybe Shraeye is the scum. But maybe you're the scum. But maybe I'm just way off with Xeiron. If I'm wrong with Xeiron, I'm making looking at Xeiron/Eevee/?, or Xeiron/?/?, which are both filled by Ahoppy and/or Theorel in a lot of cases.
Of course, maybe I'm giving you and Shraeye way too much townread for the paper thing. It would be unbalanced for you to have a doublevote as scum, but you DID keep it hidden for awhile, and it wasn't your doing that unveiled it. That's unlikely, I think, but it's possible.
But yes, I think you're correct when you say that Ahoppy/Theorel are both possible in a lot of scenarios as scum.
You may be hard-pressed to say which is more likely, but it's good to have that out there. Or would you support lynches on both of them? Or only one of them? We need to get this game moving, beyond massclaiming.
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I'm still happy with voting Ahoppy at this point.
Vote: Ahoppy, to reiterate, although I think I was already there.
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Given that we've got all the crazy role stuff happening I hesitate to throw down my vote until we're as sold on a lynch as we're going to get, but I'd be okay with lynching Ahoppy.
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Given that we've got all the crazy role stuff happening I hesitate to throw down my vote until we're as sold on a lynch as we're going to get, but I'd be okay with lynching Ahoppy.
Fair enough. I would like to see town move forward though, we are stuck in neutral it seems.
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Could someone explain "the paper" thing? I guess why it makes a difference alignment-wise.
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Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (1) theorel
chairs (1) AHoppy
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy (2) Twistedarcher, nkirbit
Not Voting (3) xeiron, chairs, Eevee
Regarding the paper thing, paper gives opportunity for double-vote (by the combo of xeiron-chairs-shraeye all essentially confirming it). Double-vote seems unlikely as a scum-given power to share around, because it would overpower scum. While potentially reasonable as a starting power, as a reproducible power it's overkill for scum. So, as long as it's true then chairs would need to be town.
There's also the supposition that shraeye is town because otherwise scum would have quick-hammered someone.
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Okay, thanks. I understood it correctly then.
Well, I'm fine with giving chairs a town pass, at least for today. Shraeye to a lesser extent (maybe scum hasn't online at the same time? maybe the votes have fallen so that it would have been awkward to try it?)
It all seems to PoE into theorel and Ahoppy then.
Looking at TA, theorel, Ahoppy, nkirbit, nkirbit and TA feel significantly townier than the other two.
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Here's why you should vote Ahoppy:
1) Was on the mail-mi wagon.
2) Was the alternative wagon, and most of the people alive were on the Ahoppy wagon to end the day, not the Ahoppy wagon. Now that I think Shraeye is more likely town, the move towards the mail-mi wagon and not towards the Ahoppy wagon, when the cases on both were relatively weak, is even more suspicious. There's 100% scum misdirection here. Ahoppy, and his partners (out of Xeiron/Eevee/Theorel/Nkirbit/Chairs), assuming Shraeye is town, made a conscious decision to move towards a town member rather than towards Ahoppy. Even if Shareye is scum, that's 2 remaining scum members who moved towards mail-mi rather than to Ahoppy. That was a scum-driven wagon, and it's a scum-driven wagon that chose to hit mail-mi rather than hitting Ahoppy.
3) All of the reasons from the D1 case on him -- now, these weren't the greatest reasons or the best case, but they're not insignificant, either. The case Shraeye / Raerae made pointed out some scummy things he did.
4) He came out today against Chairs, someone else that I now think is town after the paper-claim.
5) He was in favor of the massclaim, something that would possibly help scum more than town, despite the fact that it was directed by the person he was voting for
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Oh one more that I just thought of:
The Ahoppy wagon got to 3 votes, with TA, Eevee, Nkirbit. Eevee and Nkirbit are two people who I have towny reads on, although it wouldn't surprise me if Nkirbit turned up scum. Still, though, that's I think one of the best chances we have to get 3 townies on a wagon. No one else was willing to join on, despite several people stating that they found Ahoppy scummy. Scum's not going to bus here unless they're absolutely forced to. I think, if Ahoppy were town, scum would try to hop on and force that lynch through. But no one else hopped on, leading me to believe Ahoppy is scum, and his partners were absolutely not jumping on.
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I support TA's points here. Don't really have anything new to add.
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Official Vote Count, Please
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There's also the supposition that shraeye is town because otherwise scum would have quick-hammered someone.
I think this is mostly true, but there's the possibility that Ahoppy and Shraeye are both scum, so Shraeye never really had the opportunity to quick hammer him. But this would also be true if Ahoppy were scum and Shraeye town, so I'd much rather go after Ahoppy.
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Sorry, guys. Was on mobile yesterday and couldn't do an accurate vote count. Thank you theorel!
Vote Count 2.3
xeiron (2) theorel, AHoppy
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy (2) Twistedarcher, nkirbit
Not Voting (3) xeiron, chairs, Eevee
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
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Dammit, TA, why do you always feel so towny to me?
Are there any games I can go read over where you were scum?
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Dammit, TA, why do you always feel so towny to me?
Are there any games I can go read over where you were scum?
Monty python blitz is the only game I've been scum
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I think it's particularly interesting that Shraeye was voting Ahoppy yesterday, was complaining that no one was looking at Ahoppy today, yet when a wagon actually started on Ahoppy, he declined to join it, at least initially.
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I think it's particularly interesting that Shraeye was voting Ahoppy yesterday, was complaining that no one was looking at Ahoppy today, yet when a wagon actually started on Ahoppy, he declined to join it, at least initially.
Yes, I am still in the middle of rereads and really want to try take a stab at the larger picture together before focusing on a lynch today. I don't like that you are saying it's "interesting" that I decided not to put AHoppy at L-1 in a mylo scenario before reading more thoroughly.
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I think it's particularly interesting that Shraeye was voting Ahoppy yesterday, was complaining that no one was looking at Ahoppy today, yet when a wagon actually started on Ahoppy, he declined to join it, at least initially.
Yes, I am still in the middle of rereads and really want to try take a stab at the larger picture together before focusing on a lynch today. I don't like that you are saying it's "interesting" that I decided not to put AHoppy at L-1 in a mylo scenario before reading more thoroughly.
I certainly do think it's interesting that you have been probably the biggest proponent of lynching Ahoppy, yet you have declined to really even comment on his wagon
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Oh, hey, my vote count was wrong, because official vote count 2.2 was wrong. (I realized when TA was talking about AHoppy following xeiron's plan to claim while voting for him).
AHoppy's last vote was for xeiron.
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Oh, hey, my vote count was wrong, because official vote count 2.2 was wrong. (I realized when TA was talking about AHoppy following xeiron's plan to claim while voting for him).
AHoppy's last vote was for xeiron.
Fixed!
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Why is this game so dead?
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I received this message last night.
It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Another reason why I think Xeiron is scum. Does it make sense for pen to be in the game, when we already have a telephone, that would presumably be used for sending messages? What else can pen be used for? Do we think there are multiple combinations that create a mailman?
At some point in the near future, I'm going to go recap all of the reasons why I think Xeiron is scum.
I have been thinking about this claim, and what to make of it for some time now.
First some theory. There are four possibilities: I could be sent from a town player to town !nkirbit, from town to scum, scum to town and scum to scum.
Scum to scum would be pointless concerning information as they can already send each other as much info as they want in their QT during night. It could still be done for towncred, though.
If this is scum to town, scum would need a good reason to justify giving such information to a townmember.
A town sender would not know if nkirbit is town or scum, so town to town and town to scum can mostly be treated the same.
I have had a townread on nkirbit for some time based on these posts.
Stop speculating about set up information! Ahoppy, your post provided me with info I didn't have before I read it, and we shouldn't be making posts like these. They leak info! I'm probably leaking info right now!
If we want to claim, so be it, but I think we should stop talking about theory until we make that decision, because otherwise we're just going to be unknowingly leaking a steady stream of info.
The information that I believe he possesses is information I think is likelier for a town to have than scum. But if scum had the info, they would have shared it N0, so I'm not quite sure if town is likelier to have it than 3 scum players.
What. Those two sentences say directly contradictory things. You think town is likelier to have it according to #1. But in #2, you say taht you are not sure if town is likelier to have it than a scumteam.
Previously, I had said that any one town member is likelier to have the info than any one scum member, and that's true. But the thing I hadn't considered previously is that scum will be sharing their info N0.... so I am unsure upon considering that whether having that info would likelier indicate town or scum.
He says this like it's no big deal if we lynch a PR. It still is, especially if it's a super powerful role like cop or doctor. Additionally, EFHW brought up at some point that most of our roles are probably going to be 1-shot based on the fact that we can create our own PR's. People thought this meant that our PR's we create are going to be 1-shot. While this makes a lot of sense, I think it's more important to note that most of our initial PR's are probably 1-shot. If we're able to give ourselves a PR every night, I feel like an unlimited PR would be way OP. This being said, if ash is an investigative role, I'm not sure he would use up his 1 shot night 0. This also includes losing whatever item(s) ash is capable of giving away. Long story short, I don't like how unconcerned xerion is with a mislynch.
Why did you decided to use your one shot cop on N0?
1. So I could send items to someone right from the start knowing they are town. (If they showed scum I would have them lynched D1)
2. To get a reliable read, as I believe any redirectors, framers or other roles that messes with results would be more likely to appear later in the game if they exists in this game at all. In RMM7 scum won by messing with the cop.
3. I hoped I would get other fancy roles to use later in the game.
Ahoppy seems to believe that if one has a one-shot power, then they lose the ability to send items. This reads to me as something Ahoppy knows, and not merely speculation. Xeiron claims to be one-shot, yet still be able to send items after using his power.
I think this is worth discussing.
This episode seems to appear from some misconceptions nkirbit have that he would not have if nkirbit was scum. Scum !nkirbit would hardly forget that the scumteam could talk N0, and it is likely that either he or one of his scumbuddies would have a one-shot initial role. I also do not think scum would bother pointing out when someone is revealing to much information.
This episode could have been staged by nkirbit, but the timing with the reveal a week later caused by my claim (meaning nkirbit had no control over it) and the conclusion that it was actually nothing at all, seem to me very hard to fake.
So if Nkirbit is town, my first thought was that the telephone sender (lets call him Bell, as I seem to recall Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone) was town as well. But after some investigation (asking Eevee) there seems to be difficult to find any townmembers that could possibly be Bell.
Then let's assume that Bell is scum. It have lately occured to me that scum to scum actually makes sense. Remember that Nkirbit claimed this as a part of his case on me. It could be that scum talked about it in their QT and then had the letter sendt just so that Nkirbit could use it as point when pushing my lynch today. That would explain why the letter is so short. It basicly sais "I am a mailman that does not use pen and paper. Here is a telephone", There are some more info there, but no reads. Like why was nkirbit chosen as the recipient? Why was mail-mi? Was this town-reads based or is there some other reason?
It could also be that scum !Bell sent this to town !nkirbit using the same resoning.
Anyway I think Bell is scum.
Does someone want to claim being this person now?
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Speaking of background players, Theorel hasn't posted in like 60 hours. Is he V/LA or something?
When reading Nkirbit I also noticed this from D1.
It could be a coincidence, or it could mean Nkirbit is paying extra attention to Theorel because they are on a scumteam.
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Theorel:
(-) His first post is a long post (here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261313#msg261313)) which to me basically says "can we discuss items? thanks".
(0+) But when talking about items and claims, he points out that
I think that extreme positions are detrimental to town.
and I agree with this. His next post as well differentiates theory from scum-hunting. Theo is known for exploring theory, but it looks like he also wants to get into scumhunting when avenues for advantage have been explored.
(0-) He does take some time to jump into scumhunting, but I think he was one of the first players to start putting out reads on all the players. Here is the first reads post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261927#msg261927)). Nothing seems super suspicious here to me, except perhaps that theorel seems to be relying on players' metas more than I recall him doing other times. It's not like there's much to go on at this point, I suppose. One thing that seems odd is his read on AHoppy (which initially is "i don't remember him, score=27, which was one of the higher scores he gave in that post) but then 4 posts down he said
Okay, looked back at Ahoppy. He's been posting a good bit actually, and I was right about it being him calling out lurkers. It looks like he's been trying to engender discussion. So, I'm going to drop his scumScore to 22.
That's a big drop in scum score, and I find it surprising that theorel wouldn't have looked back through the 10 or so pages we had made before making his list in the first place.
(0-)Next, theorel defends me twice in the discussion with EFHW; I think he is a bit overly-soothing in his tone, but sometimes that comes from town. (link here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262020#msg262020))
(-)This post sits uneasily with me
I'm not quite able to put my finger on it, but I feel like it's just very speculative (trying out many different theories, allowing him to choose whichever gains traction. This is in addition to him saying that he really doesn't find anybody worth pushing or saving at all. Then ending with "hey, ash/Eevee...maybe there's something there, but I haven't found it". Really this whole post yells "hey I'm a blank slate, try to convince me". It's the type of reactive scumhunting that is easier for scum to fake, as opposed to the proactive hunting of searching out a player's inconsistencies and asking critical questions.
(+) Later theorel engages in exactly the type of proactive hunting I'm talking about (this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262824#msg262824) and the next). He comes down with firm opinions on the various debates, and then asks AHoppy to clarify his positions.
(0+) xeiron had called theorel out for not scumhunting, and his reaction seems to be genuine to me. I think people gave theorel flak about the "finally understand my scumread" line, but sometimes that happens to me. I have a gut reaction that I just have a tough time putting words to, and then something will happen and I'll be able to clearly explain what I was feeling.
Oh, and I think I finally understand my scum-read. It's not significant, but he basically called me out for not scumhunting, in the midst of a post where I was trying to understand player interactions, due to a calculation that I made. Meanwhile, he was NOT scumhunting (except arguably by pointing out a supposed scumslip I made). I understand that different players have different approaches, but his calling me out on it seems insincere given his own lack of any apparent scumhunting, excepting a couple town reads. He says raerae isn't his strongest scum-read, but I have yet to see a scum-read from him (other than a problem with my post, when I was previously a town-read for him...not sure if I switched to a scum-read, he didn't really specify). In short, Xeiron seems more interested in challenging others for failing to scumhunt than scumhunting himself.
Vote: Xeiron
(-) But his next post (link here) (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264592#msg264592) that caught my eye was one where it really looked like he was waffling on xeiron, after having made his mind up already. This wavering looks like it was just for show, basically. Also in this post, he is the first to push towards a lynch for the sake of ending the day. The day was super long, but also, I feel like this "get any lynch, jeez!" attitude is what led to mail-mi being a snapwagon with no chance to claim. Yes, we were eating up bankable time, but if we need it, then we need it. In his next few posts (on the same page) he debates the merits of each lynch and ends up choosing Eevee, but reminds us that he still supports lynching xeiron.
In day 2, theorel goes deep into pair analysis, but he keeps approaching from a position where he assumes that one of me/Twisted must be scum. Based on my read of him thusfar, I am skeptical of his analysis.
(0-) In this posts' conclusion he wavers on AHoppy; Twisted pointed this out in the post immediately after and asked theorel to clarify.
I went back and reviewed the AHoppy case. I still think it was weak, and that ultimately it was about his lurking. Here's the case as I understand it:
-AHoppy talked theory early on, while noting that we should probably get to scumhunting. While "real scumhunting" was going on. I was there, I was talking theory, I don't think scumhunting was really going on. There were two "non-RVS" claimed votes, and maybe the thing between shraeye and efhw at that time? That was as much transition-out-of-RVS stuff as the theory talk was.
-AHoppy is away a lot, and pops up when his name is mentioned. i.e. he's lurking.
-He said he would reread in the evening, and then come evening, he said he was starting to reread, and then 3 hours later, he posted stuff about it. Then a day later, he finished the reread and started posting reads and contributing more.
I said yesterday that this was a null case. I hold that this was a null case. It's not as bad as ashersky's case on efhw was, because, yeah he was lurking, and that's a case. But it is in no way compelling, and I'm frankly not surprised that people who thought it was a weak case yesterday aren't bringing it up.
Now, today, AHoppy has attacked chairs a bit, and threatened to vote for xeiron. That could be suspicious if he's going for easy cases, or it could be town looking at the most suspicious things that have happened this game.
The conclusion that theorel gives when Twisted asks him to give his full opinion of AHoppy is
Schrodinger's Cat. I don't know which it is, and make no attempt to say it is one or the other.
If someone does something which only makes sense for scum, then they are a lot scummier for it, but technically they could be doing something as town that just doesn't make sense. (Town does this sometimes anyways, some players more than others)
If someone does something that can make sense as town or as scum, then they're slightly scummier for it. It makes sense either way, but if you do lots of things that makes sense for scum, well that's what scum does.
If someone does something that only makes sense for town, then they're townier for it. Sometimes scum does these things, but ultimately if we find people scummy for being pro-town then we're defeating ourselves.
which basically just defines WIFOM. Well that's not really helpful. This is the second odd connection between AHoppy/theorel, so I'm inclined to think that theorel is scum => Ahoppy is scum.
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I have made another count of all the votes cast during in the game. RVS are excluded.
Cumulative Vote Count 2.0
key:
Player voted for(accumulated unique votes/accumulated votes) - Voting player1(vote nr.), Voting player2(vote nr.), etc
-! = hammer
Ashersky (1/1) - mail-mi(7&10)
Eevee (8/13) - mail-mi(6), aHoppy(8 ), Ashersky(15), Mail-mi(16), EFHW(35), aHoppy(38), Theorel(39), Twistedarcher(42), Nkirbit(43), Chairs(45), Chairs (46), Mail-mi(47), Nkirbit(50)
Xeiron (8/10) - Raerae(5), Shraeye(19), mail-mi(21), NKirbit(25), raerae(27), Theorel(29), EFHW(59), Nkirbit(62), Ahoppy(68), Theorel(72)
Raerae(2/2) - Ashersky(1), Xeiron(4)
Mail-mi(8/10) - Ashersky(13), Ashersky(17), Xeiron(48), Eevee(49), EFHW(55), Ahoppy(56), Nkirbit(57), Ashersky(58), Theorel(60), Chairs(61-!)
Twistedarcher(4/4) - Nkirbit(19), Chairs(22), Eevee(24), Shraeye(67)
Chairs(2/2) - raerae(12), Ahoppy(64)
Shraeye(5/7) - TA(2), Chairs(3), EFHW(9), Theorel(18), Chairs(63), Theorel(65), Eevee(66)
Ahoppy(6/11) - eevee(32), shraeye(36), raerae(37), Twistedarcher(40), Raerae(44), Nkirbit(51), Chairs(52), Twistedarcher(53), Twistedarcher(69), Eevee(70), Nkirbit(71)
EFHW(5/6) - Shraeye(11), Ashersky(26), mail-mi(33), eevee(34), nkirbit(41), mail-mi(54)
Spiritbears(2/2) - TwistedArcher(14&28), Nkirbit(20)
Nkirbit(0/0) -
Theorel(0/0) -
No-lynch(2/2) - Xeiron(28), EFHW(30)
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People still alive:
Eevee / Xeiron / TwistedArcher / chairs / shraeye / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
I know I'm town, right now I strongly suspect shraeye, Xeiron, and TwistedArcher are town, so that leaves me with
Eevee / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
Out of this group, I think one of Eevee or nkirbit is the townie, which means that both Ahoppy and theorel are scum.
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Could somebody who has a moment sort a vote count?
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People still alive:
Eevee / Xeiron / TwistedArcher / chairs / shraeye / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
I know I'm town, right now I strongly suspect shraeye, Xeiron, and TwistedArcher are town, so that leaves me with
Eevee / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
Out of this group, I think one of Eevee or nkirbit is the townie, which means that both Ahoppy and theorel are scum.
Two questions:
1. I have claimed a innocent cop-result on eevee. How come you find Eevee more scummy than me?
2. Can you explain your townread on Twistedarcher? I do not see it, and think he might be the third scum besides Theorel and Ahoppy.
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So if Nkirbit is town, my first thought was that the telephone sender (lets call him Bell, as I seem to recall Alexander Graham Bell invented the phone) was town as well. But after some investigation (asking Eevee) there seems to be difficult to find any townmembers that could possibly be Bell.
Xeiron, I think your analysis is pretty good, but here's my main problem with it.
You think that Bell exists, and if he does, he's scum. But your reason for this isn't that the role itself is scummy -- it's that the role can't be attributed to someone you already think is towny (Eevee, Nkirbit, Chairs, Shraeye), but to someone you find scummy (TA, Ahoppy, Theorel). This isn't proof that Bell (if in the game) has to be a scum role -- it's proof that would simply just confirm your reads.
What reason do you have for Bell being scum? Your initial reaction is that Bell was town, but you don't think that, since there's not someone you feel is towny who can fit in the role. That's saying everything about your existing reads, and nothing about Bell himself.
You are asking a possible Bell to claim into a scumread and possibly a vote. Town shouldn't do that -- they don't want someone to generate a scum read on them for -- and scum shouldn't do that, either! If Bell exists, you haven't given them any incentive to want to claim. Saying, "Hey, someone claim, so I can find you scummy and maybe vote you!" isn't a good way to get people to claim.
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Could somebody who has a moment sort a vote count?
I believe the last official vote count is still good
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Shraeye, you conclude that if Theorel = Scum, then Ahoppy = scum. Do you believe the reasoning goes the other way, as well?
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People still alive:
Eevee / Xeiron / TwistedArcher / chairs / shraeye / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
I know I'm town, right now I strongly suspect shraeye, Xeiron, and TwistedArcher are town, so that leaves me with
Eevee / Ahoppy / theorel / nkirbit
Out of this group, I think one of Eevee or nkirbit is the townie, which means that both Ahoppy and theorel are scum.
Two questions:
1. I have claimed a innocent cop-result on eevee. How come you find Eevee more scummy than me?
2. Can you explain your townread on Twistedarcher? I do not see it, and think he might be the third scum besides Theorel and Ahoppy.
To answer 1) With the amount of role madness we have, I'm not opposed to believing it's possible there's a Godfather.
and no, I can't really answer 2. I'm just not feeling the scum from him. Let's (for theory's sake) throw him in the list and take eevee out (to assume no godfather role and that eevee is therefore IC) and then my situation doesn't really change much - I think we should lynch Ahoppy or theorel.
As I've confirmed that the last vote count is, in fact, accurate, I'll go ahead and Vote: Ahoppy.
That puts him at L-2.
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I'm busy right now, but can you invite until I have a chance to catch up and post thoughts in case of doublevoter? I've been skimming to keep up but I need to devote time to this.
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I'm busy right now, but can you invite until I have a chance to catch up and post thoughts in case of doublevoter? I've been skimming to keep up but I need to devote time to this.
Fair enough, though it's my thought that you are probably not in danger from a doublevote.
Unvote but intent remains.
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chairs:
(0+) I tagged this post (here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261433#msg261433)) as the first of note from chairs. I find they way he examines both sides of the no-lynch idea towny, instead of just sticking to an extreme.
(++) Then there came his paper-claim (which was also hinted at in the last post I linked to) and I'm ascribing many townpoints for this. Now that I know what paper does, I find it hard to believe that scum would start with such an item.
(+) chairs unvotes me (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262017#msg262017)) when he feels like the case on me got serious, yet stayed undecided with his opinion on me. This is the towny sort of "undecided state" where he simply says that he hasn't processed it yet, instead of presenting both sides of the case and seeing which people agree with (the scum-style hedging).
(0) after a longish absence, chairs comes back from Chicago with a set of rereads (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264290#msg264290)). This is hard for me to read anything into, none of the opinions seem conspicuous, nor are they groundbreaking/new. He just tends to pick one side or another of existing arguments.
(0-) There are some waffling posts here (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264680#msg264680)), but contrasted with theorel's, this appears to be more genuine pondering, and less hedging and position-avoiding.
(-) Chairs, you should really get your vote down.
It's honestly been pretty hard for me to decide, but deadlines wait for no man, and I suppose I should pick one of the three viable lynches, so...
Vote: Eevee
When prompted to put his vote down, chairs picks Eevee out of the three lynches that seemed possible at that time. The way he does this really does look like one of the scummier "rush" votes as we were aiming to end the day.
Chairs then picks up his activity quite a bit when it comes to day2 stuff.
(+) his method of scumhunting here is good
2) As far as naming teams, I'm getting a lot of benefit from understanding your opinion on why each team would or would not work. Perhaps not so useful for this game, but long-term I'm learning quite a bit about the current f.ds meta from the responses and it's helping me work towards better opinions. I don't have any major gut-check in this game saying "this guy is definitely scum" and that's what I rely on, so this is basically how I scumhunt - by throwing something out there and reading the reflections on my statement from others, until somebody says something that clicks in my head.
3) I think that because f.ds meta currently says you should try 1 on, 2 off or 2 on, 1 off, that it's more likely than not that a very well-played scum team was either all-on or all-off. We've done quite a bit of team theory today over the idea that scum wasn't all on any given wagon, so if I were scum I'd be whole hog on the wagons up until today.
throwing out possible teams and seeing reactions is a useful method to scumhunting. This feels much better than just enumerating all possible teams, as it gives people a central idea to focus on and react to. Chairs also brings up the point of a clever scumteam being all-on. I agree with that position.
(+) posts like this show analysis of interactions between players. I like the way chairs is clearly thinking about Day3, and not just Day2.
I will say that if we lynched Ahoppy and he flipped scum, it would increase my suspicion of theorel. And (if I'm on the same page as everybody else) if he flipped town we lose, right?
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nkirbit:
(0-)
It does seem odd that for someone who professes to be correct 100% of the time that claiming is good, you don't seem to want to claim here.
This is the "seems odd" scumtell that Axxle likes to use. Nkirbit points something out, but doesn't pursue it, or appear to have a scumread on ash because of it in any of his subsequent posts.
(0+) These two posts combined (links here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261272#msg261272) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261465#msg261465)) show flexible opinion on nolynch when arguments are made one way or another. This seems townier than just locking into whatever side seems best regarless of what comes up.
(0+) In this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262529#msg262529)), nkirbit breaks down the reactions to ash/raerae and this looks like a very probing, towny post. Yet it's hard to tell exactly what nkirbit's views on ash and raerae are. The first paragraph of analysis shows that he reads them as towny, i think.
(0-) I think this is the first of the “sheep Eevee” posts that I remember from nkirbit; yet on review I can’t really find that many of them.
Okay this has all the makings of a mislynch!
TA, you found sort of a contradiction in spirit's position. Before diving further to the rabbit hole, do you think it's more likely he just got stubborn with a read and carried away when it got questioned or that he is scum and playing in a very obvious way?
The reason I think this case on spirit is indeed weaksauce is that he has no reason to act like that as mafia. This feels a lot like you got so excited you found something that you aren't seeing what it is you found.
Definitely comfortable sheeping onto this view. I still don't know exactly why SB has a town read on EFHW, and would like to hear the reason why, and I'm seeing what TA is saying, but I just think SB being town fits my picture better.
He also defended Eevee from ash in this post (link here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262651#msg262651))
(0-) In this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262574#msg262574)) nkirbit is quick to defuse suspicion on theorel’s calculations coming from xeiron. I think if we find nkirbit scum, then theorel is more likely to be scum. Given nkirbit’s style though, I don’t think that theorel flipping scum raises the scumminess of nkirbit
(?) In this post, and the nkirbit's post before this in the thread, he says that he wants to be able to talk aobut B2B Mafia.
I was quite lurky early in this game because I was up against the wall for most of B2B while this game was going on, and the game here had devolved into theory discussion that was mostly uninteresting to me. Now I'm done with that game, and this game has moved onto case-making, so I'm more active!
And boy I wish I could talk about B2B!
Now that you can talk about this, what did you want to say?
(--) In this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg263494#msg263494)) nkirbit waffles on teh AHoppy case; his conclusion is that AHoppy is not hte same scumread that nkiribt had before, but isn't a townread either. Yet this all came after AHoppy's post in which nkirbit misinterpreted something and later on in the day said it was the reason for his staunch townread on AHoppy.
(0-) In this post (here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg263687#msg263687)) his earlier scumread on mail-mi has cooled down, and I'm not sure what new info had occurred to bring him to this conclusion. Now his preferred background lynch is xeiron.
(0+) Starting sometime after this post
Vote: Xeiron
I do agree that we should lynch someone in the background. Out of those people, Xeiron is my preferred lynch.
nkirbit starts really going after xeiron. When I think about this in retrospect it feels a bit like me/Twisted in the Pirates game where we were blindly tunnelling in on eachother and really pushing those lynches. So I’m not sold that this is scummy tunnelling, but it certainly is strong tunnelling (at teh end of day1, I recall being very suspicois of nkirbit for this).
(0+) After xeiron announces his no-lynch plan, nkirbit is immediately suspicious (this post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264150#msg264150)). The most succinct description of nkiribt's reasoning comes in this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264179#msg264179)). This seems like sound reasoning, and is something that has been eating at me for a bit. He continues to inquire about xeiron's details and says that it has inconsistencies.
(--) In this post (here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264376#msg264376)), nkirbit wants to lynch xeiron, and would lynch AHoppy. EFHW doesn't show on this list at all, but in this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264528#msg264528)) he questions EFHW on changing her AHoppy read, and in this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264768#msg264768)) he eventually votes EFHW instead of AHoppy. So nkirbit's reads on AHoppy can change like this, but EFHW's can't?
(-) AHoppy's wagon gets up to 5 people in votecount 1.19 after nkirbit votes for AHoppy. Immediately AHoppy votes for mail-mi and nkirbit follows his scumread to that wagon. That's where his vote ends for the day.
Right out of the gates on day2, nkirbit is fighting hard, votes for xeiron and gives reasons. And nkirbit also says that he has a bad feeling from chairs' hammer (posts here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg266703#msg266703) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg266917#msg266917)). This is even more suspicious now that I see how his vote on mail-mi was pretty scummy.
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I am comfortable with lynching Ahoppy by now.
Consider this an intenet to vote.
That makes it a potential L-1
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Shraeye: The things I had to say were related to my argument with SB, and the points he was making. I don't think it's worth getting into at this point.
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I am comfortable with lynching Ahoppy by now.
Consider this an intenet to vote.
That makes it a potential L-1
Unvote.
Much less comfortable with my vote now.
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I am comfortable with lynching Ahoppy by now.
Consider this an intenet to vote.
That makes it a potential L-1
Unvote.
Much less comfortable with my vote now.
Are you that sold on xeiron being scum that you wouldn't consider voting someone he's voting for?
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I am comfortable with lynching Ahoppy by now.
Consider this an intenet to vote.
That makes it a potential L-1
Unvote.
Much less comfortable with my vote now.
Are you that sold on xeiron being scum that you wouldn't consider voting someone he's voting for?
I wasn't day1, and perhaps I should've been.
Another thing for me to think about is that it's possible that Xeiron is bussing his teammate here because it looks like the lynch is going through anyway. There's also the chance that Xeiron is town.
I just want time to think about it. I may go back to it.
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That's a silly question I guess you've made it clear that you are.
But I think that, if ahoppy is scum, you bet that scum are seeing how many people are finding him scummy, and don't want to get caught off wagon when the votes are clearly there (and the votes are there, I think.)
Of course the other side of that coin is that he's town and no one had an interest in protecting him.
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Well I'm glad we are on the same page. :p
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Why has no one said anything about xeirons new theory?
He's clearly working hard, either to help town or to misguide us. Everything he brings up is worth analyzing, and I don't know why people have been ignoring what he's saying.
Even if you disagree how he's played this game he is bringing up excellent points and really digging, and we should try to figure out what he's been saying and if it's genuine or not.
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Well, I guess I find it a little bit weird that the item that would be most incriminating to Xeiron was sent to the player most suspicious of Xeiron. That should make me suspicious of the player who sent it, right?
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AHoppy:
(0-) His first 4 posts all fluff, then asks ash for more info regarding his raerea vote; this is possibly the first. (6/24 3.51pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg260963#msg260963)). raerae gives him flak for this and he explains himself later.
(0+) I think the first post of any real substance from AHoppy is this (6.25 12.43am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261250#msg261250)) asking about no-lynch possibilities. My notes from before say that he was the first player to bring this up, which gives townpoints.
(-) Votes Eevee for lurking, then shows up discussing item-theory (6/25 9.54am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261338#msg261338)). Between items and no-lynching, this accounts for his next 7 posts. Which of course he follows up with “hey, why aren’t we scumhunting more?” (6/25 1.21pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261481#msg261481))
(-) Then come 3 posts about items, and a post about lurkers needing to show up (6/25 5.04pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261649#msg261649))
(0) He finally catches up with a reread and actual thoughts in this post (6/27 10.44pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262694#msg262694)). Really his first suspicion he casts at anyone is xeiron, in this post. I think that a newbie scum is unlikely to pull the “throw suspicion at partner” before trying the classic “wait for town to look odd, point it out” technique. So if AHoppy flips scum, then I think this is more townpoints for xeiron.
(-) In a catch-up post on 7/1 10.33pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264458#msg264458) he looks legitimately behind. I’ve been there before, and feel for him. It’s really not fun to slog through all these things. But his scumread on Eevee here doesn’t look very solid at all, yet he says Eevee is looking pretty scummy. Eevee’s fight with ashersky seems natural to me, and during any sort of discussion/fight, I am always trying to see if the other person is coming at me with scumfrustration or townfrustration. I don’t like that AHoppy finds Eevee scummy for ending the argument with a townread on ashersky. If this was town v. town between Eevee/ash (I think that’s likely) then from scum AHoppy’s perspective, either Eevee is scummy for having the right read on ash, or he can side with Eevee and hunt ash if Eevee has the wrong read on townash.
This post above also calls 6 different people scummy on day1. That’s half the people, from any one player’s perspective, and it doesn’t look like AHoppy is doing much to differentiate between the reads. This leaves AHoppy open to jump on whatever one of those 6 take off (or reconsider, if any of those are his partners).
(0-) In his next meaty post (7/2 12.20am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264505#msg264505)) he spots an ash/Eevee team (that’s now 7 people he’s called scummy).
(0+) During day2 he’s unsold on claiming; this gains townpoints in my mind, he starts out against mass claims (7/9 8.14am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg266985#msg266985)) but then rethinks and (7/14 1.09pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg268558#msg268558)) says it might have use. I think scum would be worried about their positions regarding delicate issues like that, and once they picked a position that seemed to go with the majority they would be loath to change it. Then again, AHoppy returns to no-claims when he hears the arguments against claiming that I made.
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It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Like, the player doesn't at all indicate that this is evidence against Xeiron, despite me clearly saying before that I would find that to be the case:
If someone had evidence that there was another way to send messages other than pen and paper, it would be a pretty good reason for them to find Xeiron scummy.
So, I think it's pretty clear that I'm going to find Xeiron scummy upon receiving the message.
Now, to think about who would send me the message:
If it's a town player, why are they sending it to me? If they really think Xeiron is scum, I'm already convinced! They should be sending that evidence to another town player so we can lynch scum Xeiron!
If it's a scum player, and Xeiron is town, it keeps me driving the mislynch. This seems to be a pretty good reason to send it.
If it's a scum player, and Xeiron is scum, it seems odd. It keeps me on the Xeiron lynch, which I may have already been on anyway, but it seems like kind of a waste of a message.
So yeah, I guess I am suspicious of the player who sent that message (who is still alive, btw. Not someone who got killed overnight. Or at the very least, claimed to be someone who is alive.)
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Xeiron:
(0) States townread on spirit, theorel, ash; no explanations. (6/27 11.49am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262417#msg262417))
(-) Jumps at theorel over calculations (6/27 7.16pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262571#msg262571)), but then strangely decides that theorel’s answer (which confirmed xeiron’s original suspicions) has satisfied xeiron and now he’s back to townread. That is a really odd connection. If xeiron is scum, I would definitely suspect theorel as his partner, considering this and that theorel kept saying he preferred xeiron lynch as we mislynched mail-mi yesterday.
(0) Votes no-lynch and asks for pen/paper. His ‘plan’ which has produced nothing, and which has never been explained. Surely you can now explain what was on your mind then? I assume it’s obsolete given the crazy night1, and seeing what you had planned will help me read you better. If it’s not obsolete, you can just ignore this, I suppose.
(+) He gives a list of town/scum (7.2 11.22pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg265044#msg265044)) and says that the scumteam is mail-mi, myself, and TA. He also says that EFHW looks scummy. He starts the mail-mi wagon when AHoppy was available, as was EFHW. These are townpoints towards xeiron, as he could have supported the EFHW wagon and likely pushed that through if he was looking for a mislynch. (7/3 2.23pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg265329#msg265329))
(++) He then claims cop with town-result on Eevee. He waited very late to come out with this, right as we were pushing up against our soft-deadline. But he really seemed like he was very reluctant to claim, and it would make sense given his no-lynch position to do this to avoid the one mislynch he knew was a mislynch.
(0-) In this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg266709#msg266709)), xeiron still thinks TA/shraeye is scum, even though his other reads were shown to be wrong.
(0-) I will not claim stuff now outside of a massclaim.
says he won’t claim stuff outside of massclaim, but still exposes the paper stuff later on. As I said before, exposing this power really hurts our ability to surprise scum. Now it's factored in to all the wagons that we see.
(+) In this post (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg268549#msg268549)) xeiron gives reasons for a massclaim. I side with eevee on this that this doesn’t look like something xeiron would go to lengths to do if he were already doing well as scum.
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It’s [redacted]. I’m a mailman, write 1 player nightly. Wrote mail-mi N0. Now, have a [redacted] (NO idea what it’s for). My items a telephone. Sending you 1 tonight. It doesn’t work alone though, you must combine it with something else (no idea what…)
Like, the player doesn't at all indicate that this is evidence against Xeiron, despite me clearly saying before that I would find that to be the case:
If someone had evidence that there was another way to send messages other than pen and paper, it would be a pretty good reason for them to find Xeiron scummy.
So, I think it's pretty clear that I'm going to find Xeiron scummy upon receiving the message.
Now, to think about who would send me the message:
If it's a town player, why are they sending it to me? If they really think Xeiron is scum, I'm already convinced! They should be sending that evidence to another town player so we can lynch scum Xeiron!
If it's a scum player, and Xeiron is town, it keeps me driving the mislynch. This seems to be a pretty good reason to send it.
If it's a scum player, and Xeiron is scum, it seems odd. It keeps me on the Xeiron lynch, which I may have already been on anyway, but it seems like kind of a waste of a message.
So yeah, I guess I am suspicious of the player who sent that message (who is still alive, btw. Not someone who got killed overnight. Or at the very least, claimed to be someone who is alive.)
I disagreed before, and I disagree now, that I think the existence of a telephone implicates Xeiron.
Xeiron's hypothesis about pen + paper was a fair one -- I know I'd guess that those two = a writing implement before guessing that paper is a doublevote. Xeiron was looking for a writing implement -- without knowledge of any, and with knowledge of paper in the game, the simplest explanation is that pen + paper exist.
Your quote didn't strike me as a particularly memorable one, and it's never something I would have remembered if you hadn't brought it up. To me, the issue of the pen is a non-starter, and I don't think there's really anyone else who thought it was that big of an issue, either?
Do you think it's a possible explanation that the mailman could have simply been sharing the information that they have?
You have very suddenly flipped on this, directly after Xeiron voted Ahoppy. Why would this vote cause you to change your opinion on something that you brought up at the beginning of D2?
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You're the one who encouraged me to go back and re-read Xeiron's posts. Are you unhappy that I did so?
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You're the one who encouraged me to go back and re-read Xeiron's posts. Are you unhappy that I did so?
No, if you are coming around to the idea that Xeiron is probably town, I'm happy, because it's what I believe.
Are you coming around to the idea that Xeiron is probably town, or do you think he's scum still?
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Shraeye's re-reads are interesting, I'm going to withhold comment mostly until he's done and posted his conclusions from them, though.
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So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?
1) That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2) If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along! Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.
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I realize those two points look odd together.
I don't think you were intentionally helping me along, which is the key point.
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So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?
1) That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2) If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along! Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.
What? I don't understand. I'm saying that I think the pen thing doesn't implicate Xeiron. Lately, I've questioned his analysis of Alexander Graham Bell, which I think is faulty, but not scummy. I've questioned you for immediately unvoting as soon as Xeiron votes, and for (seemingly) suddenly changing your views. I don't get what you're accusing me of here
Here's what makes no sense to me:
You were okay voting Ahoppy before. Someone you think is scummy (Xeiron)votes Ahoppy. This makes you think that Xeiron is very possibly more towny, yet you unvote Ahoppy.
If you are thinking Xeiron is more towny, shouldn't that make you MORE confident with your vote, not LESS confident?
I think Xeiron is more than likely town, and I hope you think the same. I also think Ahoppy is scum, and you should vote him.
PPE: You notice the contradiction, but what exactly are you asking me here?
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So, you think that Xeiron is town, and think that I'm switching my views from Xeiron being scum to Xeiron being town?
1) That's not necessarily what I'm doing, although you're helping me along.
2) If you are town, and think Xeiron is town, you should be helping me along! Not questioning me and trying to make me rethink it.
Btw. I disagree with the second point. Of course I'm going to question your motives of why you shift. Even if I think Xeiron is town, you agreeing with me does not make YOU town, and I want to figure out why you think Xeiron is town.
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The unvoting Ahoppy thing was before re-reading Xeiron again.
You have very suddenly flipped on this, directly after Xeiron voted Ahoppy. Why would this vote cause you to change your opinion on something that you brought up at the beginning of D2?
The thing that caused the flip-flop was re-reading Xeiron, as you asked me to.
If you're town, you absolutely should be questioning why I'm switching my views. But that's not what these feels like to me. It feels more like you're trying to subtly say, "No! Go back to tunneling Xeiron!", rather than simply questioning whether my change makes me scummy. It's just the feeling I'm getting here, and it's not a towny vibe from you.
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Re-read the past page twice, and that's just absolutely not true...
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Well, I guess we'll have to disagree then.
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I would love to see Theorel come in here and say what he thinks about the recent developments -- I don't think we've heard from him in awhile.
A lot of people are naming both Theorel and Ahoppy as scummy (Chairs, Xeiron, others I can't remember maybe?) Chairs and Xeiron, why are you voting Ahoppy over Theorel? Is it simply because Ahoppy is the more viable lynch?
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What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?
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Can you point out where I said I changed my mind on him?
I was re-reading what he said. The strongest thing I said was "That's not what I'm doing, although you're helping me along". At no point did I say I changed my mind on Xeiron.
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I would love to see Theorel come in here and say what he thinks about the recent developments -- I don't think we've heard from him in awhile.
A lot of people are naming both Theorel and Ahoppy as scummy (Chairs, Xeiron, others I can't remember maybe?) Chairs and Xeiron, why are you voting Ahoppy over Theorel? Is it simply because Ahoppy is the more viable lynch?
Ahoppy feels like the right choice to me. Theorel feels scummy, but Ahoppy feels like Mafia.
I know, bad explanation. I'll try (but make no promises) to do more logical instead of emotional explanation later.
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You were hypothesizing that the mailman who sent you the note last night could have been scum trying to push a mislynch on town!Xeiron through manipulating you.
It's just very interesting that you're bringing this up NOW, when you've had the message all day to think about. The timing of bringing it up, after your scum read (Xeiron) announces intent to bring Ahoppy to L-1, is odd.
I'd say that it's meant to distract from a potential Ahoppy lynch, but that doesn't make complete sense, since it makes Xeiron seem townier, which would make the Ahoppy lynch even more viable. But, on the other hand, it would bring up another potential lynch target, and since you unvoted, you may not be planning on staying on Ahoppy, and you might be planning on moving away.
So that could make you and Ahoppy potential partners -- you moved away from him D1, and you're now potentially moving away from him on D2. (and I know, you might not, but it's fishy that you've found reasons to unvote him two days in a row).
If you're town, you are trying to avoid a mislynch. It's just that your thoughts seem to be pulling you in two different directions here (Xeiron is townier because of the mailman note, but Ahoppy is scummier, yet you're unvoting Ahoppy).
I'm just getting two different directions from you here, and I'm struggling to reconcile them in my head.
Why did you wait until now to bring up the mailman note issue, when it's been there all day?
If you get a townier read on Xeiron, does that make you more or less comfortable lynching Ahoppy?
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
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Timeline for TA:
#1910: Xeiron announces intention to vote for Ahoppy
#1912: I unvote from Ahoppy
#1917: TA says that no one has said anything about Xeiron's theory, and asks us to re-read it
-- I reread Xeiron's theory --
#1918, 1920: I come back with some thoughts on my reread.
I don't know how in the world you think this is scummy timing. You asked me to re-read it, I re-read it, and then you find it "interesting" that I re-read it at this point, and not earlier. I re-read it because you asked me to!
Stop tying this re-read and my unvoting of Ahoppy together. They were triggered by completely separate incidents that happened to come one after another in the thread. I've already stated that I re-read Xeiron because you asked me to.
Why are you trying to find connections for me doing what you asked me to?
Again, You asked me to re-read Xeiron. And then you found it odd that I re-read Xeiron. WHAT????
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Again, I'm not "moving away from Ahoppy." I still may decide to put my vote there. You've repeatedly attributed actions to me that I haven't done recently, such as having a town-read on Xeiron (of course I don't have a town read on Xeiron), and moving away from Ahoppy (My exact words were "I may go back to it")
As for being pulled in different directions, yeah, of course I am. It's because I'm town, I'm taking in a lot of information that sometimes conflicts with one another, and I have to sort through which is correct information and which is red herrings.
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Ok, well they didn't seem separate to me, since they were happening so close together. They definitely looked intertwined, since we were going back from one to the other. But I was really thrown off by the fact that you seemed to be saying two different things at once -- one thing that I would think would naturally make someone more comfortable voting Ahoppy, and then unvoting Ahoppy. Even if they really were unrelated, do you see the disconnect there?
I didn't see the connect between 1918 and 1920 to Xeiron's post until you just pointed it now. It's not something that he brought up in his post, so I didn't see it as a direct response -- it really came out of nowhere, to me. I see that it's a reply to the same message that Xeiron was analyzing, but it's not really a direct reply to Xeiron's theory, so it threw me off.
I don't find it odd that you re-read Xeiron -- I found it odd that you brought up the telephone thing, which I now see was meant as a reply to Xeiron's most recent post. But that connection wasn't obvious to me, at all, hence me treating it like it came up out of the blue.
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Again, I'm not "moving away from Ahoppy." I still may decide to put my vote there. You've repeatedly attributed actions to me that I haven't done recently, such as having a town-read on Xeiron (of course I don't have a town read on Xeiron), and moving away from Ahoppy (My exact words were "I may go back to it")
As for being pulled in different directions, yeah, of course I am. It's because I'm town, I'm taking in a lot of information that sometimes conflicts with one another, and I have to sort through which is correct information and which is red herrings.
You may not be "moving away from Ahoppy", but you unvoted him, and that's definitely something noteworthy especially considering you did it D1, as well.
And I know you don't have a town read on Xeiron, or that you ever said you did
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What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?
Do you know that? It's pretty obvious that I had a scummy read on Xeiron all of today. "Changing my mind" would give me a towny read on him, no?
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What specifically in your re-read of Xeiron made you change your mind on him?
Do you know that? It's pretty obvious that I had a scummy read on Xeiron all of today. "Changing my mind" would give me a towny read on him, no?
I know you have and had a scummy read. I thought you were saying that you went back and re-read all of Xeiron's post. Did you do that, or only the recent ones?
I thought you were saying stuff you weren't because the telephone post seemingly came out of nowhere to me, when it was actually a response to Xeiron's post and it was just unclear that it was.
Don't worry, I'm not trying to say that you think Xeiron is towny, I know, and everyone else does I'm sure, exactly where you stand on him.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
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Twisted:
(?) Immediately tries to skip RVS (6/24 2.34pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg260896#msg260896)); this doesn’t make any sense, as any info we have night0 that will move us forward obviously involves claiming, and Twisted is against claiming.
(0-) Twisted makes a joke about choosing the wrong deli meat being scummy; exactly the sort of RVS banter that he had hoped we could move past (6/24 3.01pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg260919#msg260919)). He defends this in 6/25 3.34pm, but I still don’t get his indignation here. I just don’t see how somebody can be so down on RVS, but still want to participate in that banter. It just makes it look like your anti-RVS position is puffed up to be a real hatred, when really you don’t mind to participate in it anyway.
(0+) Here twisted (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261139#msg261139)) disagree with xeiron (who thought ash was softclaiming with his raerae vote) but doesn’t find him scummy for it.
(0+) (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg261462#msg261462)) still has no strong reads, but suspicious of shraeye/ash it seems. Toys with no-lynch idea, to keep items in the game for longer.
(0) Next comes the issue of Twisted v. spiritbears. I think that Twisted really pushes spiritbears to explain a read much harder than necessary. Why focus on spiritbears’ EFHW read? At the same time xeiron was posting odd unexplained reads on people, and Twisted wasn’t kicking up a fuss there. If Twisted flips scum, then xeiron looks more suspicious for dodging this treatment, I think.
(0) (6/27 6.11pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg262532#msg262532)) Looking at nkirbit’s reads from ash/raerae, Twisted says that AHoppy comes out the scummiest. That group included chair/theorel/spirit/AHoppy. I think if Twisted flips scum, then AHoppy looks townier. Twisted could have easily picked spirit as his biggest scumread here due to the surrounding argument. I don’t see somebody picking one of their partners out of a group when they have a ready-made case on another person in that group.
(-) (link (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg263504#msg263504)) Twisted had been called out for his townread on mail-mi by raerae. He explains that mail-mi’s contributions were related to xeiron stuff and his reaction to xeiron calling out theorel on calculations. That seems really weak stuff for the townread which seemed confident.
(0-) (6/30 9.28pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg263759#msg263759)) This is strange to me; when I play games with people I know (Munch, raerae) I tend to focus on their posts more and see them as more active then they actually are on reread. Twisted says that he can’t remember points that his brother has made.
(0) July 1 posts seem dominated with more Twisted v. spirit. It looks like posts from both sides were emotionally charged, and it’s hard to get alignment reads from that.
(0) (7/2 10.28am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264613#msg264613)) When we were sitting at a pivotal point, Twisted voted for AHoppy over Eevee, EFHW, or something new. This is another point that makes me think Twisted/AHoppy aren’t scumpartners.
(+) (7/2 11.19am (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264636#msg264636)) Twisted goes through the exercise of looking at all of the reactions to spiritbears now that we knew spirit’s alignment; he found Eevee/ash the scummiest out of this wagon.
(0-) (7/2 6.54pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg264896#msg264896)) Twisted tells me the reasons for his lynch preferences; I find it odd that he’s willing to follow nkirbit’s thoughts on AHoppy blindly just because he “has a townread on nkirbit”. He also misunderstands how “lynching a background player” differs from “lynch a lurker”. The point isn’t to look at metas and say scum is posting less than they do as town, but to look at the actual content, and see if somebody is taking risks.
(0+) (7/3 11.12pm (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8002.msg265649#msg265649)) I agree with this assessment. The mail-mi lynch looked like a clear redirect, and makes me very suspicious that there is scum in (eevee, EFHW, xeiron, AHoppy). I think xeiron/AHoppy are the likely candidates here. If Eevee=scum, then I xeiron is as well, so the xeiron lynch is just as good.
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That's the end of my reads, I didn't get around to making a similar post on Eevee, but I will read him as well now (though briefer) and then think more about conclusions.
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Shraeye, I really appreciate the reads, and the work you've put in to them. They will hopefully be very helpful in finding scum. That said, though, do you think you could maybe post your conclusions on the reads as a whole, and where you think we should be looking for scum?
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Shraeye, do you mind explaining exactly what (0), (0-), (--), etc. mean?
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
Well, it doesn't show us much of anything, unfortunately. There are many conclusions. Xeiron could not have double vote and guessed correctly, and this could be true regardless of alignment. He could have it and not be willing to hammer his scum partner, or he could have it and be town. I'm going to mostly rule out the last one, because I don't think town has a reason to lie here... there's no more information he's hiding. So if he has it, he's scum.
What's the chance of him guessing it correctly if he doesn't have it?
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Shraeye, do you mind explaining exactly what (0), (0-), (--), etc. mean?
(0) is null for now, but most of them point out interactions between players that might be informed by future flips.
(0-) is neutral-scummy
(0+) is neutral-town
(+) give me townvibes
(-) gives me scumvibes
(--)
(++) both are strong vibes scum/town and such.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
I can't believe I didn't catch this. Logical leap into coincidence makes this certainly a possibility.
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I think there are a number of ways that this could play out, most of which don't look particularly good for Xeiron:
1) He could be scumbuddies with Ahoppy, have the double vote right now, and not be willing to use it because Ahoppy is his partner.
2) He could be scumbuddies with Chairs, and have information that Shraeye was the person Chairs sent paper to N0.
3) He could be scumbuddies with Shraeye, and have the information from Shraeye that he received paper N0.
or
4) He could be town, and have guessed correctly.
I would lean towards one of the first three being more likely. More reasons to vote for Xeiron!
Vote: Xeiron
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Vote Count 2.4
xeiron (3) theorel, AHoppy, nkirbit
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy (2) Twistedarcher, chairs
Not Voting (2) xeiron, Eevee
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
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I read up Eevee, but don't have the time to pull together a reads post. Eevee feels confusing. I had recalled Eevee/nkirbit reaction incorrectly, and it turns out tha tEevee is the the one who keeps tying himself to nkirbit. That could be a scum tactic of tying oneself to a towny or just townEevee saying what's on his mind, but I don't think eevee/nkirbit would be partners, because that just seems like a really clumsy way to interact with a partner, and one I might expect from a super-newbie scum but not eevee.
He also has a similarly weird intereaction with ashersky briefly when he congratulates ashersky for tunnelling on eevee.
His defenses to the accusations of him underposting feel genuine and towny. But then he gives us the layout of how to read Eevee, and I didn't agree with his take on his own meta.
I really don't think that scumxeiron would pull this crazy gambit to save his scumpartner eevee, that just ties them too much together, and based on scumxeiron that I remember (the forbidden game), I don't see him making a move that bold. But chairs did bring up the possibility of Eevee as godfather.
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I started trying to do a re-read tonight, and I'm having a hard time doing it. Good job scum for making this game so tedious to re-read :P Oh I'm sure plenty of town contributed to it too, but still. Ugh.
The theme of this game seems to be people being divided. We had wagons at the end of D1, but to me it seems like people are splitting between 2 or 3 wagons and sticking there and just bickering with eachother. No, no data to back this up, I just feel like that is part of what has made this game so long. And I think scum could have easily manipulated this. Splitting up in between different votes and then maybe all jumping on the one that seems to carry the most weight (me or mail-mi). anyways, on to my 3-4 page catch up. I think a lot has happened. I'm just going to comment on things in this post as I catch up, so if it feels random I apologize.
Some claiming from me as I think it is claiming time and to show you that I am not asking others to claim to work on my own claim.
I will leave out some parts that affects other players.
Flavour name. Harry Soref.
I am a one-shot cop. I used this power on eevee N0. He showed town.
I have sent Eevee two items, one N0 and one N1.
I got no items N0, but I did get paper and a cooling unit N1. I got no pen, and I no longer thinks a pen exists.
So this is strange. I don't like how xerion says he won't claim until we all agree to follow his plan, and then when everyone turns off of his plan, he's like "oh well, claiming anyways". That was really the only reason I was going along with the mass claim, was to hear xerion's claim. Now we have it. So my question is: You have the two items, which I presume create a 1-shot cop role. Did you combine them again to get a 2nd shot cop? because if you did, it would be nice to know another result...
I'm really confused about the whole Alexander G. Bell thing. Xerion, can you go over why you thought eevee was bell, and why that would change anything?
I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.
I would like Theorel to go next
No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.
Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee. He received paper and cooling unit. (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)
chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.
Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell. (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)
btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."
No and NO. FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now. I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.
I agree with everything theorel is saying here
Oooh, thought, mislynch today isn't the end of the world if we have town doublevoters...
Out of all of this, I see chairs as being town now. I don't see scum starting with a shareable doublevote power. seems pretty OP to me.
Shraeye, you conclude that if Theorel = Scum, then Ahoppy = scum. Do you believe the reasoning goes the other way, as well?
I thought he was saying that he saw theorel just as, if not more scummy than me (the => thing is what you're talking about right?) but correct me if I'm wrong shraeye. Maybe I just want someone to suspect someone other than me :P
Nkibit bringing up this case about someone sending him a telephone trying to make him suspicious of xerion: I feel like this could be a scum breadcrumb and maybe nkirbit and the phone sender are both scum making a gambit to get xerion mislynched. It's a possibility, but kinda seems like a long shot. We have no confirmation that there is anyone with a telephone anyways...
Right now, I'm still comfortable with my xerion vote. His jumps in logic, he seems to be getting lucky with his claims (except for bell) and he thinks he has more knowledge than he actually does (at least, I think. From what I gather). And you know who has more intel in a game and can make educated leaps like that? Scum. Anyways, if everyone is still intent on lynching me, just let me know if I should claim. I hope to finish re-reads tomorrow, but no promises... life gets in the way of nearly 2k posts about mafia... Anyways, I admit I have looked scummy this game, just know that if you lynch me you will regret it.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
Let me explain step by step my thinking behind guessing Shraeye has paper.
I was at that time thinking Ta, Ahoppy, and Theorel as the scumteam (I do that now as well, but I have been some to and fro in the meantime).
Shraeye said that he had a item that was so powerful it had to come from town. If my scumteam theory is correct that would mean from Chairs, Nkirbit or Eevee. I knew chairs could send a potetial powerful item, and I knew chairs flavor-investigated me while he sent it to me. I also knew Chairs flavor-investigated Shraeye N0. It would be natural for chairs to send an item to the one he investigated, as that is the one he had (would have after the night) the most information on.
Since it made sence both for Chairs to send paper to Shraeye, and for Shraeye to recieve paper from Chairs, I guessed that is what happened. It is a jump, but not a big one.
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I only unvoted ahoppy because xeiron (a townread for me) was worried about doublevoters.
vote: ahoppy, would go theorel too.
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I started trying to do a re-read tonight, and I'm having a hard time doing it. Good job scum for making this game so tedious to re-read :P Oh I'm sure plenty of town contributed to it too, but still. Ugh.
The theme of this game seems to be people being divided. We had wagons at the end of D1, but to me it seems like people are splitting between 2 or 3 wagons and sticking there and just bickering with eachother. No, no data to back this up, I just feel like that is part of what has made this game so long. And I think scum could have easily manipulated this. Splitting up in between different votes and then maybe all jumping on the one that seems to carry the most weight (me or mail-mi). anyways, on to my 3-4 page catch up. I think a lot has happened. I'm just going to comment on things in this post as I catch up, so if it feels random I apologize.
Some claiming from me as I think it is claiming time and to show you that I am not asking others to claim to work on my own claim.
I will leave out some parts that affects other players.
Flavour name. Harry Soref.
I am a one-shot cop. I used this power on eevee N0. He showed town.
I have sent Eevee two items, one N0 and one N1.
I got no items N0, but I did get paper and a cooling unit N1. I got no pen, and I no longer thinks a pen exists.
So this is strange. I don't like how xerion says he won't claim until we all agree to follow his plan, and then when everyone turns off of his plan, he's like "oh well, claiming anyways". That was really the only reason I was going along with the mass claim, was to hear xerion's claim. Now we have it. So my question is: You have the two items, which I presume create a 1-shot cop role. Did you combine them again to get a 2nd shot cop? because if you did, it would be nice to know another result...
I claimed anyway as I started to ask specific questions for people to claim, and because I hoped to get the massclaim-ball rolling.
If I had another cop-result worth anything I would have claimed so by now. You know I love claiming.
I'm really confused about the whole Alexander G. Bell thing. Xerion, can you go over why you thought eevee was bell, and why that would change anything?
Thought mr. Bell was town since sharing information is towny. I had towreads on Shraeye, Chairs, Nkirbit, Eevee, and myself.
I did not send the telephone. Shraeye is Edison, Nkirbit is the paper guy and Nkirbit presumably did not send mail to himself.
If Eevee Was bell all would be good. Since he turned out not to be, I either had to reconsider my scumreads or my assumption that mr Bell is town for things to make sence. I have tried to consider other persons as scum, but ended up with the same scumteam still. I have aslo tried to reconsider mr. Bell, and I now think it do make sense for him to be scum.
I think that when we are this far a massclaim is in order.
I would like Theorel to go next
No, I really don't think we've "gone too far", that we can't avoid claiming.
Here's what we know:
xeiron is a claimed one-shot cop, Harry Soref, and has sent 2 items to Eevee. He received paper and cooling unit. (i.e. xeiron has full-claimed)
chairs had paper (we already knew), and sent it to shraeye and xeiron (flavor copping each).
paper MIGHT make a 1-shot double-voter.
Eevee is NOT Alexander Graham Bell. (which somehow would have cleared shraeye AND nkirbit)
btw, here's how xeiron is manipulating this town into massclaiming:
He asks for it, finds out people don't support it.
He says he will NOT vote for ANYONE until a mass-claim.
He picks up a little support and promptly loses it.
He asks a few random questions, and claims for himself, then says "oops, we've gone too far...guess we'll have to go ahead with that mass claim that everyone by which I mean EVERY SINGLE PLAYER was opposed to."
No and NO. FOS: TwistedArcher for putting that idea out there when he's been the most vocally opposed to it up until now. I won't be claiming, as it's still a bad idea, even though xeiron has claimed some stuff and asked some questions that show that EVEN IF HE'S TOWN, he's not getting anything out of it.
I agree with everything theorel is saying here
Oooh, thought, mislynch today isn't the end of the world if we have town doublevoters...
Out of all of this, I see chairs as being town now. I don't see scum starting with a shareable doublevote power. seems pretty OP to me.
Shraeye, you conclude that if Theorel = Scum, then Ahoppy = scum. Do you believe the reasoning goes the other way, as well?
I thought he was saying that he saw theorel just as, if not more scummy than me (the => thing is what you're talking about right?) but correct me if I'm wrong shraeye. Maybe I just want someone to suspect someone other than me :P
Nkibit bringing up this case about someone sending him a telephone trying to make him suspicious of xerion: I feel like this could be a scum breadcrumb and maybe nkirbit and the phone sender are both scum making a gambit to get xerion mislynched. It's a possibility, but kinda seems like a long shot. We have no confirmation that there is anyone with a telephone anyways...
Right now, I'm still comfortable with my xerion vote. His jumps in logic, he seems to be getting lucky with his claims (except for bell) and he thinks he has more knowledge than he actually does (at least, I think. From what I gather). And you know who has more intel in a game and can make educated leaps like that? Scum. Anyways, if everyone is still intent on lynching me, just let me know if I should claim. I hope to finish re-reads tomorrow, but no promises... life gets in the way of nearly 2k posts about mafia... Anyways, I admit I have looked scummy this game, just know that if you lynch me you will regret it.
I find nothing here that makes Ahoppy less likely to be scum.
vote: AHoppy
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Vote Count 2.4
xeiron (3) theorel, AHoppy, nkirbit
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy (2) Twistedarcher, chairs
Not Voting (2) xeiron, Eevee
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
Chairs unvoted right after voting so this should be the situation now:
AHoppy(3) Twistedarcher, eevee, Xeiron
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I've been kind of busy lately. Keeping up, but not much else.
I think xeiron is likely to be scum, I think he makes more sense as scum than town given the events of day1.
I've been trying to rethink whether my position on AHoppy is wrong, but I just don't think it is. I really don't think the events at the end of day1 make sense given that AHoppy is scum.
I guess I should take the chairs stuff into account. Let's see, possibilities include:
shraeye/chairs/xeiron all scum, and the whole paper thing is made up.
chairs is town, paper thing is real, scum doesn't want to quick-hammer because this isn't lylo, and they're worried we'll still be here tomorrow.
chairs is town, paper thing is real, scum doesn't want to quick-hammer because we've yet to have town-on-town.
chairs is town, paper thing is real, scum doesn't have double-voting because they guessed something different. This could be a scum-xeiron or a scum-shraeye in that case.
chairs/shraeye/xeiron are all town. This implies Eevee is also town. And the scumteam is twistedarcher-nkirbit-AHoppy. Based on end-of-day1 stuff, that is a viable scum-team (not strong, but viable). It requires some strong bussing to be going on today.
I think I'm leaning strongly towards chairs is town, and scum has some reason not to have quick-hammered, or is unable to, if only because of the flavor-case from chairs on shraeye.
If I just eliminate all chairs-containing scum-teams from earlier, we get:
AHoppy-nkirbit-twistedarcher
AHoppy-nkirbit-shraeye
xeiron-eevee-twistedarcher
xeiron-eevee-shraeye
I think that the strength of any of those teams necessarily drops as the teams get fewer, which means some weak suggestions should be included that were dropped before. So, I should really reanalyze things...but basically I don't see xeiron-nkirbit as a team. I don't see xeiron-AHoppy as a team. If chairs is town, and I'm town, then that really limits what's possible.
There is some far-away possibility of xeiron-eevee-AHoppy, but I don't find that credible enough to consider at this time.
There is the more reasonable possibility of shraeye-twistedarcher-Someone, which is probably on par with these now. If we take away the ridiculous-strong bus of twistedarcher and shraeye both voting AHoppy, as also pretty weak. And if we don't consider godfather scenarios at this time. Then we get:
xeiron-twistedarcher-shraeye
nkirbit-twistedarcher-shraeye.
I haven't really thought deeply about those 2, but they are out there.
Anyways, I think those aren't as good as they were before, but I don't have any immediate "can't be possible" situations for anyone, which would be my concern. If xeiron was implicated as no-high-probability scum-teams I would be concerned, but he's not. I'm not sold on those being the necessary teams, just some reasonably-strong probability teams.
So, anyways, I think AHoppy is more likely to be town than xeiron. I think xeiron's manipulating the town against their wishes for his own purposes. The most reasonable explanation for that that I can see is because xeiron has goals which differ from town. And so, that's where my vote stays.
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So, based on xeiron's correction this should be the actual vote count:
Unofficial Vote Count
xeiron (3) theorel, AHoppy, nkirbit
Twistedarcher (1) shraeye
AHoppy(3) Twistedarcher, eevee, Xeiron
Not Voting (2) chairs, shraeye
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
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Ahoppy, please claim.
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Ahoppy, please claim.
Agreed.
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I'm trying to analyze our voting situation here. If xeiron/AHoppy are both scum, then I think scum is purposefully balancing things out, making sure that things get drawn out too long. In this case, I think Eevee or Twisted is likely as a third partner.
If xeiron is scum, but AHoppy isn't, I suppose that the entire scumteam could be on AHoppy right now, which is something I'm worried about, as it looks like chairs intends to vote for AHoppy unless the claim can sway him.
If AHoppy is scum, but xeiron isn't, then it's possible that the entire scumtean is theorel/AHoppy/nkirbit. I recall nkirbit having a few odd interactions with AHoppy in my reread, and he quickly jumped to theorel's defense with the probability calculation during day1 that xeiron called him out on. I also noted the theorel => AHoppy connection in theorel's reread.
If there is bussing in either of those last two situations, I think theorel is likely to be bussing xeiron (I don't see nkirbit pulling a day1/day2 hardcore bus like this, and in this situations AHoppy/xeiron is 1scum/1town.) If it was AHoppy that was scum, then I think that Eevee might be the most likely busser (but Eevee would necessarily have to be a godfather in this situation adn we got super unlucky; but Twisted has a few points in his rereads where I think you can see that AHoppy/Twisted aren't scumpartners).
Now if both xeiron/AHoppy are town, then I can't figure out why there hasn't been a stronger push towards one of these lynches, as they both would be mislynches. I suppose that we were moving towards AHoppy first, and xeiron cooled that down with the doublevote claim. Then the xeiron wagon slowly built up, and has again been quickly joined by AHoppy also at 3. In this situation, the scumteam would have to be split up and might be something like nkirbit/theorel/Eevee or nkirbit/theorel/Twisted.
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Alright, I suppose it's claim time.
I am a 1-shot watcher. N0 I did nothing. I gave no items and didn't use my watcher ability. I didn't do anything because I wanted information on people before I watched them or gave them items. I now see that I probably could have given items because I'm guessing that my item requires many things to combine with. N0 I received an item that could have been given by EFHW (Eli Whitney) but I'm not sure how that could make a bomb. So, it easily could have been one of you as well. I won't reveal it unless the person who gave it to me wants their item/possible PR out there. All I know is it doesn't work with itself. N1 I decided to give and watch my highest town reads since they were likely to be NK'd/town. I flipped them though and sadly watched TA and gave my item to raerae. So nobody has any of my items. When I watched TA, I only saw myself and nkirbit visit him. Make of that what you will
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Alright, I suppose it's claim time.
I am a 1-shot watcher. N0 I did nothing. I gave no items and didn't use my watcher ability. I didn't do anything because I wanted information on people before I watched them or gave them items. I now see that I probably could have given items because I'm guessing that my item requires many things to combine with. N0 I received an item that could have been given by EFHW (Eli Whitney) but I'm not sure how that could make a bomb. So, it easily could have been one of you as well. I won't reveal it unless the person who gave it to me wants their item/possible PR out there. All I know is it doesn't work with itself. N1 I decided to give and watch my highest town reads since they were likely to be NK'd/town. I flipped them though and sadly watched TA and gave my item to raerae. So nobody has any of my items. When I watched TA, I only saw myself and nkirbit visit him. Make of that what you will
nkirbit would you please claim? I don't see what we can get out of this without more data from nkirbit (assuming he's town).
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Maybe not necessarily the whole shebang, but if you can at least confirm/deny the visit.
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I can confirm that I was targeted by one player last night. Nkirbit would make sense.
Nkirbit claiming will not help with reads. Nkirbit, don't claim.
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Although I guess it would help to clear Ahoppy, if Nkirbit actually did target me.
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Although I guess it would help to clear Ahoppy, if Nkirbit actually did target me.
That's basically where I was going with this - hence the clarification one post after the claim request that we probably don't need the full monty.
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Well, how would it clear me? All it would mean is I'm not lying...
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Well, how would it clear me? All it would mean is I'm not lying...
That'd be better than naught, though.
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Well, how would it clear me? All it would mean is I'm not lying...
That'd be better than naught, though.
Yeah, and I'm not sure how much sense scum watcher would make, although it's certainly possible, given that it would help learn who had what items. In a normal game, scum watcher makes little sense -- in this one, it would certainly make a bit more sense, although I don't know how much.
There's also a possibility you're lying, and that you knew Nkirbit was targeting me, and Nkirbit is your partner.
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This would fit wth the AHoppy/nkirbit/theorel team I proposed above. All 3 are currently on xeiron.
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In fact, I think I am getting more confident in AHoppy being scum here, nkirbit as a likely partner.
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Yeah, nkirbit jumping to the mail-mi wagon day1; that is really what gave it legs over the much more convincing AHoppy case (a case that nkirbit said he agreed with except for one reservation...which was removed eventually).
I think those are the causes of the misdirection day1.
Vote: AHoppy
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That's L-1
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Vote Count 2.5
xeiron (3) theorel, AHoppy, nkirbit
AHoppy (4) Twistedarcher, Eevee, xeiron, shraeye
Not Voting (1) chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
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And now we just need chairs to hammer!
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Well, Ahoppy is correct in that I did visit TA last night. Can you confirm this, TA? You should be able to.
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Confirmed
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Ugh, I really don't like this. I know I'm town, and feel like if even if we're correct here, I'm the obvious mislynch target tomorrow.
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well I wish town the best of luck. sorry I've played this game so poorly. I hope you guys can survive tomorrow. It's a bummer that it had to be me. I'm sure you guys will regret this.
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Wait, hold on, don't hammer yet. I'm working on something.
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TA: Did you get a letter from me?
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well I wish town the best of luck. sorry I've played this game so poorly. I hope you guys can survive tomorrow. It's a bummer that it had to be me. I'm sure you guys will regret this.
This doesn't feel very towny to me. I'm still deciding, but this doesn't help Ahoppy.
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well I wish town the best of luck. sorry I've played this game so poorly. I hope you guys can survive tomorrow. It's a bummer that it had to be me. I'm sure you guys will regret this.
Pretty much only if you're scum is there a tomorrow. This whole bit sounds really insincere.
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And now we just need chairs to hammer!
This is the scummiest post of the game!
No consideration of Ahoppy's claim, whatsoever. Just a "one more vote!"
Trying to push chairs, who's been really jumpy with bandwagons, to hop on.
This post screams "End the game now and Eevee/Xeiron / whomever win!"
Goes against everything I've thought but wow wow wow this post makes me so suspicious.
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TA: Did you get a letter from me?
Yes. Want me to post it?
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If you could, please. I was just confused by the "Nkirbit would make sense" part of the following message. You would have know, had you gotten the message. I know that you could have been trying to shield my role, but it's possible that you didn't actually get my message.. I thought it was worth clearing up, though.
I can confirm that I was targeted by one player last night. Nkirbit would make sense.
Nkirbit claiming will not help with reads. Nkirbit, don't claim.
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You realize that me post your letter amounts to you item claiming, right?
I'm not sure what information you want me to withhold / what you want me to post..
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And yes, I was just trying to not out your role.
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Yeah. I'm confident you got it now, so don't bother.
I still am worried about Shraeye's views about me for sure being Ahoppy's partner. I unvoted Ahoppy because I was uncomfortable with Xeiron voting him (as I was day1 with Xeiron voting mail-mi, and regrettably didn't follow through on), and am voting Xeiron now because he was by far my top read, although I think his defense against my points was actually solid.
I'm assuming we need three consecutive lynches to win, and if lynching Ahoppy today will inevitably lead to myself being lynched tomorrow, you can see why I'm hesitating here. I do think Ahoppy is a good lynch today, but we don't just need a good lynch today. We need a good lynch today, and tomorrow, and the day after, and I'm worried about it.
But, Ahoppy being scum makes so much sense, and we're going to have to lynch him eventually to win (if he's scum). So, Intent to hammer Ahoppy. I don't think we're actually waiting for him to claim anything at this point, but I'm going to give anyone who has a cop-claim or something like that time to step forward.
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My skin is crawling since Eevee's most recent post that we're really wrong...but man, this is what I've thought is the correct lynch for awhile now. I'm just worried it's something like Xeiron/Eevee/someone, could even be you, or Shraeye, or someone. Ugh
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For some reason, I've had a sinking feeling about a TA/Shraeye/? scumteam all day. But I've gone through and done re-reads looking for evidence, and can find nothing, and don't want to play this game based on my feelings.
And yes, of course I'm worried about a Xeiron/Eevee/? scumteam where the ? isn't Ahoppy.
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If Ahoppy flips scum, I'd be interested to look at Chairs, who has jumped on literally every wagon of the game, with the exception of this one. (this may be less true than I think it is, but that's just my impression). Theorel would probably be my best guess for Ahoppy's partner, though. I think Ahoppy flipping scum would also clear Xeiron.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
Let me explain step by step my thinking behind guessing Shraeye has paper.
I was at that time thinking Ta, Ahoppy, and Theorel as the scumteam (I do that now as well, but I have been some to and fro in the meantime).
Shraeye said that he had a item that was so powerful it had to come from town. If my scumteam theory is correct that would mean from Chairs, Nkirbit or Eevee. I knew chairs could send a potetial powerful item, and I knew chairs flavor-investigated me while he sent it to me. I also knew Chairs flavor-investigated Shraeye N0. It would be natural for chairs to send an item to the one he investigated, as that is the one he had (would have after the night) the most information on.
Since it made sence both for Chairs to send paper to Shraeye, and for Shraeye to recieve paper from Chairs, I guessed that is what happened. It is a jump, but not a big one.
Can someone explain this to me? I just re-read Chairs, and nowhere did he say that he flavor investigated Xeiron. How would Xeiron know this? Am I missing where Chairs said he flavor investigated Xeiron?
I have to head to the airport. I'll be back in a couple of hours.
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In case you were wondering where I got this from.
Paper makes one of the following powers.
1-shot Doublevoter
1-shot Mailman
1-shot Tracker
You have to guess what it does after you have guessed that paper can be used alone.
I guessed incorectly 1-shot Mailman.
1-shot Doublevoter would make sense with Shraeyes "I think this power is town" claim.
It also makes with Shraeyes reads on chairs.
Chairs, can you claim if you sent paper to someone N0?
So, Xeiron here doesn't even know if the paper causes 1-shot doublevoter or 1-shot tracker. He doesn't know that Shraeye was sent paper N0. He correctly guesses that paper gives doublevoter, not tracker (although I guess that makes more sense?) and correctly guesses that this is what Shraeye was referring to when he said he had a power that was "powerful for scum". It's another coincidence for Xeiron, and there have been a lot.
Oh. At the time, I was too frustrated that xeiron had revealed this to notice that jump. that is a pretty big jump based on the information that xeiron claims to have had. This lends support to the theory that xeiron does indeed have doublevote, which shows that he chose not to hammer AHoppy when he was at 3 votes, even though he now says he's ok with lynching AHoppy.
also while typing up his read and thinking about things, I was wondering if him posting that my power was more of a warning to his scummates. That seems like a crazy conspiracy theory, but after xeiron says that I have doublevote, Eevee immediately unvotes AHoppy. That could implicate xeiron/AHoppy/xxx as the team, xxx could be Eevee, but I don't think that's as necessary as AHoppy being a partner.
Let me explain step by step my thinking behind guessing Shraeye has paper.
I was at that time thinking Ta, Ahoppy, and Theorel as the scumteam (I do that now as well, but I have been some to and fro in the meantime).
Shraeye said that he had a item that was so powerful it had to come from town. If my scumteam theory is correct that would mean from Chairs, Nkirbit or Eevee. I knew chairs could send a potetial powerful item, and I knew chairs flavor-investigated me while he sent it to me. I also knew Chairs flavor-investigated Shraeye N0. It would be natural for chairs to send an item to the one he investigated, as that is the one he had (would have after the night) the most information on.
Since it made sence both for Chairs to send paper to Shraeye, and for Shraeye to recieve paper from Chairs, I guessed that is what happened. It is a jump, but not a big one.
Can someone explain this to me? I just re-read Chairs, and nowhere did he say that he flavor investigated Xeiron. How would Xeiron know this? Am I missing where Chairs said he flavor investigated Xeiron?
I have to head to the airport. I'll be back in a couple of hours.
As a sharing flavor cop, when I investigate somebody they know it.
Somebody mentioned something about how I haven't been on this wagon - I think I've been pretty clear all day that I have, in fact, been on this wagon, but I've been markedly reserved because I want to ensure that we're right.
I'll give it another hour or so in case anybody else has something they want to say before we push this button, but intent to hammer as well.
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Ugh. I'm feeling so uneasy about this, but I don't think that Xeiron's a better lynch.
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Oh, nkirbit: The information earlier which made you think I was town: What I was saying is that I bet most roles are 1-shot, because my roles are 1-shot. And it makes most sense given that you can get more roles, a role that you can use indefinitely could be OP if you can augment it with many other 1-shots.
Also, I suppose since it looks like I'm about to get hammered, I should also say that I'm a 1-shot commuter. I kept trying to tell you guys not to lynch me because I had the possibility of keeping us alive tonight, but now that'll be gone. I didn't want to claim it earlier because well, I figured knowing that I had that would help scum more than it would help town. Becuase now they know not to NK me. But hey, WIFOM and such. Since I'm going to die anyways, I see no harm in letting you all know now.
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Vote: Ahoppy
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:'( I really need to get better at this game
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:'( I really need to get better at this game
If you flip town, then I have to congratulate the scum team on being effective at fooling me.
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Thr-Thr-Thr-Threadlocked!
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"There he is!" The crowd screamed, "After him!"
AHoppy weaved his way through cubicles, slipping on papers and pushing chairs (but not the employee) aside while the angry mob consisting of Twistedarcher, Eevee, xeiron, Eevee, shraeye, and chairs charged after him. They slipped on papers and pushed chairs (the employee) aside as they ripped through the cubicles. AHoppy reached the back door and could see his precious airplane triple-parked, awaiting his return. He jostled the handle and slammed his body against the door. He pounded the door with his fists and wiped the sweat from his forehead. But it didn't matter. The door didn't budge.
He whirled around to see the 5 person crowd was upon him. Orville Wright slipped on his aeronautic glasses and hung his head as two mobsters grabbed either side of him and carried him to Archetype's office. They opened the office door, sat him down in a row of chairs (not the employee), and ripped off his flying cap revealing a luscious 10 feet long mane of blond hair.
"This pilot killed the CEO!" chairs said proudly.
"Oh did he now..." Archetype said, his voice trailing. "I'll deal with him privately. Get back to work." He said dismissing them with a wave of his hand. chairs and the four other members of his mob vacated the room and closed the door behind them.
"I'm sorry it had to come to this," Archetype began, opening his desk drawer and pulling out a Revolver, "But the biggest threat has to be eliminated."
He pointed the revolver at AHoppy's temple, who's eyes were glazed with fear, and slowly pulled the trigger.
Vote Count 2.FINAL
xeiron (3) theorel, AHoppy, nkirbit
AHoppy (5) Twistedarcher, Eevee, xeiron, shraeye, chairs
Not Voting (1) chairs
With 8 alive you need 5 to lynch. The day will end on July 23rd.
AHoppy, otherwise known as Orville Wright the 1-shot Commuter and 1-shot Watcher has been fired.
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Archetype blew down the barrel of the gun, spun it around, and slid it into his pocket. The door slowly creaked open as Twistedarcher, theorel, and shraeye.
"Good job, team!" Archetype said, shaking his accomplices hands. "Taking out the CEO was tricky work, but good thing I had you three to help me out. Now, let's make our escape." Archetype grabbed a packet of papers in a manilla folder and headed out his office door.
"Are the bombs setup?" Archetype asked theorel. He nodded his head yes. The quartet of villains headed out the front door and walked out into the parking lot. They went behind AHoppy's plane and ducked down. Theorel pulled out a detonator and pushed the big red button in the center of it.
A loud 'BOOM' sounded and a fiery inferno erupted behind them in the spot where Innovation Inc. used to stand. They laughed manically as they could hear the innocent screams of their fellow employees burning alive within the company's complex. The heat from the fire was considerably hot, but the malicious team was safe behind the plane. They wouldn't be fired.
Once the flames had died down, the group stood up. Archetype patted his ashen suit jacket and said, "Now that that is taken care of, let's go!"
"Not yet boss," shraeye began, "There's still one weak link to take care of,". With a flick of a wrist, Twistedarcher pulled out a revolver and shot Archetype in cold blood. The trio quickly grabbed his body and tossed in into the embers of the building's fire, getting rid of the evidence. Fire engines had started to arrive, but these Plagiarists didn't mind. No one would suspect Albert Einstein, Thomas Edison, or Alexander Graham Bell of doing something so vile...
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The Plagiarist team of shraeye, theorel, and Twistedarcher are the winners!
Thread Unlocked!
Setup info and all that jazz to be shown soon. Feel free to talk while I compile it all![/color]
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Oh man. theorel I would've lynched, but I don't know if I would have ever gone back to shraeye after we'd lost the kicker (that he was scum because Edison).
If we'd hung on that, we could've recognized the value of the flavor cop and probably won.
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good game everyone! great job scum partners.
I think we would have won even if you lynched scum today. We have 5 30% 1 shot-vigs between us, and we would have stolen Chairs' paper for doublevoting powers tonight I'm sure.
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good game everyone! great job scum partners.
I think we would have won even if you lynched scum today. We have 5 30% 1 shot-vigs between us, and we would have stolen Chairs' paper for doublevoting powers tonight I'm sure.
...FIVE?
Jesus.
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All in all, N1 really, horrifically screwed us.
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Scum QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/SDHGfge8tU2
Speccy QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Hft2w3rjZUc
Mod QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/ctq2dRkkx3x
Roles/PMs (PM wordings changed only slightly): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IHwmphNElhoiSEpt3NU509wWSVoOyRT2cq7muY9lX0k/edit?pli=1
Night Actions/Item Combinations/Inventories/Other PRs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AodI01XhRvYKdG1SUDVEcU5hQmlaVnJJWEtKdGFXanc#gid=0
I'll let you guys discuss a bit before I give my thoughts on the setup. If you have any questions on why things happened, let me know! Great game scum!
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I think this was a really fun setup. It's a shame we only got to D2, but factoring the town vig shooting the bomb, and a mod-kill D1, I don't think that's really anything against the setup.
We had a thieving power. Each night, we got to steal one players' items, and all 3 scum got them. We stole Revolvers from Ashersky N0 and N1.
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Both google doc links go to Role PMs
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Both google doc links go to Role PMs
Woops! Fixed!
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Oh man. theorel I would've lynched, but I don't know if I would have ever gone back to shraeye after we'd lost the kicker (that he was scum because Edison).
If we'd hung on that, we could've recognized the value of the flavor cop and probably won.
I think it was xeiron who dug around and found the online article about 5 thieving-est inventors. Turns out the scumteam were #1, #2, and #3...
I really didn't want any claims to go down. I had figured out that nkirbit was mail-man, chairs was the flavor-investigator, and Eevee was inventor from my rolecop. I really didn't want to lynch AHoppy and wanted xeiron today instead, because I was worried AHoppy would claim doctor, which definitely would have caused him not to be lynched.
What did your inventor stuff do, Eevee?
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Xeiron was really on the right track for most of the game. It's a good thing for us he was so, so, so, so, scummy in presenting his ideas. He was definitely on the right track and closer than any other town member.
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Oh man. theorel I would've lynched, but I don't know if I would have ever gone back to shraeye after we'd lost the kicker (that he was scum because Edison).
If we'd hung on that, we could've recognized the value of the flavor cop and probably won.
I think it was xeiron who dug around and found the online article about 5 thieving-est inventors. Turns out the scumteam were #1, #2, and #3...
I really didn't want any claims to go down. I had figured out that nkirbit was mail-man, chairs was the flavor-investigator, and Eevee was inventor from my rolecop. I really didn't want to lynch AHoppy and wanted xeiron today instead, because I was worried AHoppy would claim doctor, which definitely would have caused him not to be lynched.
What did your inventor stuff do, Eevee?
I knew you were online at the last day -- I was really, really, really hoping you'd vote Xeiron so I could hammer him!
If only we had activated our day-chat. :D
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I'm leaving for my V/LA right now, right now. So I'll give my thoughts when I get back on Monday.
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Yeah, I saw theorel was online, and thought he should hammer AHoppy. But I didn't want to come down voting xeiron, which may have been suspicious given my posturing that day.
@SpecQT #14/15 from yuma. Yeah, it was part of my plan to release Twisted to just clutter the thread as much as he wanted. People need to start seeing that serial posting is just as bad as serial lurking in the long run. But I DID notice that the post-numbers changed, now I see that it was yuma's post that got deleted that did that!
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I nominate shraeye or theorel for MVP. Very well done, boys.
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also, @SpectQT #45 from ash about EFHW's bomb-ness. Yeah, I totally would have found a way to draw mafia's NK. some sort of hint/claim type thing.
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I was really surprised Nkirbit didn't come after me D2. I thought for sure he would guess that there wouldn't be two scum mailmen.
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I think it's pretty great that the mailmen exchanged letters night1.
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I'm looking at the list of the items and combinations, and they make less sense than I thought :P gauze and paper make doctor? parachute and paper makes a tracker? I'm confused :P But man, I should have figured out that flavor could indicate scum, with us having a flavor cop and this game being so thematic...
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I nominate shraeye or theorel for MVP. Very well done, boys.
seconded
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I think it's pretty great that the mailmen exchanged letters night1.
I'm guessing that you had the exact same "Oh shit" moment that I did when you realized that nkirbit was mailman, too?
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yup, i was like "oh crappers". I got real worried when he started saying things like "what if the person who sent me that telephone were scummy...maybe he's scummy"
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I think it's pretty great that the mailmen exchanged letters night1.
And that they sent to the same person N0 (me).
gg scum. Man N1 really killed us. Well, that's a loss for me.
Let's all go sign up for Jimmmmmmm's game! (and my game, of course.)
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I should have clued in more on TA being scum, and may have had we ha another day.
I was actually going to come home and vote shraeye. TA texted me that the game was over and he was scum, and he can attest that my first reply was "shraeye was your partner." I had been getting bad feelings about shraeye and TA as of late, and was sure that I wasn't going
I guess I have to take the blame for tunneling on xeiron.
I was actually worried that TA had stolen my telegraph N0. I sent it to mail-mi... Who he claimed to have sent the telephone to. But I never had a chance to bring it up
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I was also suspicious of TA saying "I didn't notice your message saying that you would find it scummy." Did you notice that and was that why you sent me the letter?
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Funnily enough, the first thing that made me anxious about shraeye was raerae saying she had had a "robz moment" in the clue sign up thread. I interpreted that as her being completely wrong as town, meaning shraeye must have been scum and told her. I don't know if that's what raerae actually meant, and I tried to ignore it since that's evidence I shouldn't be using, but it did give me a bad feeling.
It's my fault for letting my strong xeiron read stop me from contributing elsewhere
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I was also suspicious of TA saying "I didn't notice your message saying that you would find it scummy." Did you notice that and was that why you sent me the letter?
No. Your message wasn't really targeted at you in anyway, it would have been the same message regardless of who it went to.
I thought about playing around with the role, but couldn't come up with anything that wasn't too risky
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Funnily enough, the first thing that made me anxious about shraeye was raerae saying she had had a "robz moment" in the clue sign up thread. I interpreted that as her being completely wrong as town, meaning shraeye must have been scum and told her. I don't know if that's what raerae actually meant, and I tried to ignore it since that's evidence I shouldn't be using, but it did give me a bad feeling.
It's my fault for letting my strong xeiron read stop me from contributing elsewhere
To be fair, I think most of us were tunneled on someone. I felt like I was Solomon trying to figure out how many pieces to slice the baby into when I hammered. My initial three attempts at that post all absolved Ahoppy and tried to find a reason, but ultimately I couldn't find something convincing enough to justify it. I just felt like SOMETHING must not be right here.
I think this just reinforces my "gut reaction best reaction" feel, as the only really strong gut-check I had was when I was calling Shraeye scum.
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Crap... over already.
I really thought we could win all the way to the end.
I felt I was close to the scumteam, but shraeye threw me off.
I would nominate him as MVP.
And i still think a massclaim would have helped us.
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I kinda-sorta followed this, but I think massclaim would be a good idea.
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I kinda-sorta followed this, but I think massclaim would be a good idea.
What does scum actually think? Since they were all the ones staunchly apposed to the mass claim and eventually convinced me not to mass claim. I think maybe only nkirbit from town was against it still at one point
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I think mass flavor claim would have outed all the scum if they had to scramble for new names, as seeing Edison, Einstein, and Bell together would have probably reignited the "damn scum inventors" itch.
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I don't think that we had a shot of winning that game from that point, anyway. Scum had -five- 30% vig's, were all getting double votes tonight.. Their stealing power is very very powerful with claims
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I don't think that we had a shot of winning that game from that point, anyway. Scum had -five- 30% vig's, were all getting double votes tonight.. Their stealing power is very very powerful with claims
Fair enough. N1 was ridiculously rough on town.
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Funnily enough, the first thing that made me anxious about shraeye was raerae saying she had had a "robz moment" in the clue sign up thread. I interpreted that as her being completely wrong as town, meaning shraeye must have been scum and told her. I don't know if that's what raerae actually meant, and I tried to ignore it since that's evidence I shouldn't be using, but it did give me a bad feeling.
It's my fault for letting my strong xeiron read stop me from contributing elsewhere
Nope, I felt like crap because I wasn't around to save mail-mi, was going to go after EFHW D2, and was certain AHoppy was scum and I was yet again unable to convince town to vote with me. As it turns out, I was more wrong than I ever thought possible.
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Good game scum team! Crazy game Arch!
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I kinda-sorta followed this, but I think massclaim would be a good idea.
What does scum actually think? Since they were all the ones staunchly apposed to the mass claim and eventually convinced me not to mass claim. I think maybe only nkirbit from town was against it still at one point
I definitely did not want a claim, but I had some stuff ready. I would have claimed 1-shot lightning rod, and then claimed my phonograph item, and sending results accurately
The lightning rod is sorta the opposite of the nexus that Tesla claimed...that's what I meant when I said "arch worked the rivalry into the setup.
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If you were town, would a claim have been good?
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Depending on my role, I would have supported it or not. The problem is that if there were exactly one protective role, like Doctor...I thought you were doctor...that can really hurt town.
Still, I probably would have supported it at that point. My views on claims and massclaims are a bit different than other players around this site. I'm not so anti-claims as raerae, but I'm not eager to agree to claiming.
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Yeah. I just knew I couldn't claim commuter. I was ok with the other stuff. man, I'm so mad I watched TA instead of raerae... I was so close to switching it
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Yay, I finally won a game as scum :)
I think claiming items would have been a bad idea. I mean we got lucky with both the revolver and the paper such that we wouldn't have been taking advantage of a mass-claim as fiercely...but a scum-team without that knowledge could really exploit it. Claiming initial roles seems less bad in this set-up. But day2 it would have been hard, because you're outing any 2-shot protective roles who have only used one shot.
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Scum certainly got very, very fortunate (stealing the revolvers was good.. certainly better than, say, stealing a bunch of shirts! As was having five townies dead by day2). But they played very well and deserved the win.
Shraeye's my pick for MVP.
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So let's start with a
little Secret History.
For those who played/Spectated BMX: The Old Chateau, you may have remembered Kooshie/Jimmmm's Dual (Explosive) Doctor role. If you didn't play or can't remember, it was a role that functioned as a Doctor by giving them an object. But if they both target the same player, those objects would react to kill the target. I loved the concept of a multipurpose role like this so I thought, hey, what if I had an entire game based around those roles. It seemed plausible enough so I started brainstorming.
I had a RMM game coming it up in the queue so I had to set some guidelines. I had to tell people what there 'power' actually did. It would be uninteresting to say: "You're a Tracker...unless you target {Flavor Name} then you're a Watcher". Plus, the only inverses I could come up with were Tracker/Watcher, Doctor/Vigilante, and Nexus/Lightning Rod. Every player also had to have some effect with every other player, but there really aren't enough situational changes that make flavorful sense for every player without getting too redundant. So the idea evolved from two players targeting one player for an effect that night to one player targeting a certain player for an effect that night to eventually players giving an item that can be combined with other players given items. Simple with a lot of design space.
My game was next up, and I knew I had to get something out there. I was going to contact eHalc, but I hadn't seen him around Mafia-land, so I talked to Axxle instead. He was in BMX, had helped me with Survivor stuff, and helped bring Mafia over. I proposed to him a set of ideas for setups to run (A SK-based one, this one, and a couple others I want to keep secret for now). He liked the Inventor one the best, so I started to flesh out a setup.
I created this one:
10 Town Inventors
3 Scum Thieves.
Simple 10 v 3 13 player setup. Since the Town was made up of Inventors, I thought a theme of actual inventors would be nice with some of them being scum. I jotted down a list of the ones that came to my head (Benjamin Franklin, Nikola Tesla, Thomas Edison, Samuel Colt, etc.) and set it and the setup over the Axxle. He thought it looked good so I went further with it.
I did a bunch of research, gathering a list of 30+ Inventors that created a variety of things. I wrote down their name and what they invented and then wrote down possible combinations and their power roles. Once I had a few, I decided to explore the design space some more. They were all originally 1-shot, but then I had the idea of players having their 'Inventor' role swapped for 'Motivator' and give out electricity. If they were to target a player, all their electricity-based inventions would gain an extra shot. Thematic! I also only wanted a 13 player game, but lots and lots of combinations. So I allowed players to give out multiple items.
I put this off to the side for a bit. But then it came time for me to open a thread, so I got back to work. I named the scum 'Plagiarists', moved their 'Theif'-ing to a factional power and gave them each different manipulative power roles. I decided on a No Kill N0 start to give the town a boost. I also felt like the Theives needed power roles, but they needed to be manipulative to prevent scum from totally piecing together the puzzle. I liked the ring of 'Innovation Inc.', so that's what I named the game.
I came up with some more combinations and the setup eventually evolved into this:
Benjamin Franklin Town Inventor/Motivator
Nikola Tesla Town Motivator
Samuel Colt Town Inventor
9 Town Inventors
Thomas Edison Plagiarist Roleblocker
2 Plagiarist Redirector/Encryptor
For the 11 missing flavor names, I had some from the list of 30 people that I wanted to be in, but I wanted them to have as much interaction amongst eachother as possible to maximize the number of flavor combinations. The manipulative roles looked good, but I wanted the Encryptor because I've always wanted to see a game with that role. Too bad it never got used. I also had it so that items automatically combined themselves with each other. This gave players something to do each night instead of just sending out items.
Then one night I got thinking really hard about this game. I realized that if you were a straight up inventor, this could be really boring if you never got any items. You could never combine anything! And what if you didn't want to send an item! I then decided that everyone needed a standard power role in addition to sending/combining items. It would also be much easier to balance than just the items (besides, scum was horribly overpowered). I also realized that scum were kind of screwed AND benefited once items were claimed. Sure they could take whatever they needed from what was claimed, but they'd slowly be lynched since no one would be receiving the items they claimed to have. I didn't want a repeat of RMM4. So I had them give out dummy items instead. This also meant that players would have to manually combine items. Which was OK.
The setup then became this:
Benjamin Franklin 1-shot Lightning Rod
Nikola Tesla ?
Samuel Colt Vigilante
9 Town Inventors
Thomas Edison 3-shot Roleblocker
Albert Einstein 2-shot Redirector
Alexander Graham Bell 3-shot Mailman/Encryptor (the shots could be used for either Mailman OR Encryptor)
This looks sort of like there are a lot empty spaces, but there really wasn't. I had a general idea for what to fill those 9 extra slots, but nothing was set in stone. I began focusing a ton on combinations and would just give a spot to whoever could combo the most with other things. I sent this over to Axxle and asked if he had any must-haves for Inventors or combinations. Too early to tell, but he liked where it was going.
I slowly filled the remaining spots, switched up the X-shots on a few things, put in some much-needed things that weren't really that flavorful, but really helped balanced out the needed balance elements. This was really the big editing point, but there are so many little things I did that I won't include for sake of time and energy for both me and whoever is reading this.
Axxle had concerns that the game might be over too soon, which is certainly something I didn't want to happen. I suggested having some players start with the item they give out to help speed up combinations and give players a taste of what they are sending out. Some players didn't start with things and some players started with a certain item of the ones they gave out, but that was purely for minor balance reasons. Which may not have mattered, but it could.
--
The end product was different from what it intended to be, but I still love it. I think I lived up to the OP's quotation with a game were players slowly gain information and want to share it with others, but must do so secretly (hence 2 Mailmans and multiple ways to get 1-shot Mailmans) and slyly. The game went a little too quickly for that to completely happen, but I still had a great time modding and formulating the set up. I hope everyone also had a great time playing! I'll cover more game-specific details rather than setup-specific details in my next post.
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i was kind of sad that 5 players died during the first round.
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So I'm going to go with shraeye for MVP. But this really is a tough one. All scum played absolutely phenomenally, but shraeye won over the majority of the Town. But big time honorable mention to xeiron for almost solving the setup. He put in so much effort, and his plan was what I intended for players to do, but he was just a day too late.
If I were to change one thing it'd be the Vigilante. Just remove it all together. Axxle was the one who downgraded it to a 2-shot, which I'm happy about, but I still wish I took the entire thing out. Pregame I voiced concern over scum getting too many revolvers so Axxle suggested changing the 100% Vig shot to 1-shot Daykill (delay night kill to anytime during the day) instead. It never came up, but I'm glad I changed it. I would've taken the entire role out, but I was a bit too late to do that. Oh well.
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So I'm going to go with shraeye for MVP. But this really is a tough one. All scum played absolutely phenomenally, but shraeye won over the majority of the Town. But big time honorable mention to xeiron for almost solving the setup. He put in so much effort, and his plan was what I intended for players to do, but he was just a day too late.
If I were to change one thing it'd be the Vigilante. Just remove it all together. Axxle was the one who downgraded it to a 2-shot, which I'm happy about, but I still wish I took the entire thing out. Pregame I voiced concern over scum getting too many revolvers so Axxle suggested changing the 100% Vig shot to 1-shot Daykill (delay night kill to anytime during the day) instead. It never came up, but I'm glad I changed it. I would've taken the entire role out, but I was a bit too late to do that. Oh well.
You might have kept the role, but gotten rid of the ability to invent something that kills.
As some may have noted, I was not handing out revolvers. As town, no way I wanted to give extra kills to scum. Making it impossible to invent extra kills through combos, etc. would have helped.
One vig + one mafia kill a night isn't terrible, especially with no SK. I mean, had I had any clue that EFHW was a bomb, I wouldn't have shot her. And in the hands of other players, they may have never shot at all.
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Xeiron, what was your plan?
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One vig + one mafia kill a night isn't terrible, especially with no SK. I mean, had I had any clue that EFHW was a bomb, I wouldn't have shot her. And in the hands of other players, they may have never shot at all.
Help me out here. I wanted to breadcrumb something PR-like to attract a nightkill (which would also have deterred you from shooting me, as it turns out). I was worried about everyone landing on me for seeming to claim - maybe it was worth that risk? And I was worried about being too obvious and making scum avoid NK'ing me. I don't have much experience with breadcrumbing. What could I have said? Or do you have a game I could look at where it was done well?