Dominion Strategy Forum

Miscellaneous => General Discussion => Topic started by: -Stef- on April 06, 2013, 06:12:11 am

Title: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 06, 2013, 06:12:11 am
Hi everyone,


One of my friends designed a 'puzzle game'. I don't really know what to call it. It has to do with directing balls around a grid, starting out with some simple puzzle levels and slowly turning into more and more complex state-machine computer science problems. At first it was just an idea in his head but now he made a client where you can actually play, and I've really enjoyed play(test)ing it. It also has a nice competitive element, because solving the problem with less components is considered better. Basically I'm now looking for some competition on the highscore-board ;)

I could talk a lot longer about it but there's not much point compared to having a look at http://xorballs.dskl.net (http://xorballs.dskl.net/).
If you try it out, please let me know what you think...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 06, 2013, 06:57:08 am
Nice game. :)
Just got to level 8 with 2 stars. Can't find the 3rd though :(

Edit: Done it!

Now stuck on level 14.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Awaclus on April 06, 2013, 07:45:24 am
Got stuck in the level where input is > < and expected output is ^^. I accidentally deleted the splitter though, and then couldn't get it back, so if it was needed in this level, it would explain a lot.

I love the concept, some of the levels I last played were great and the difficulty curve felt okay so far. In my own games, I usually follow a very difficult level up with a couple of easier levels, not like stupid easy levels, but less difficult than the very difficult level was. This way there is a "reward" for beating the very difficult level: you can now make some actual progress instead of getting stuck in the next level, while every level is still challenging enough to be interesting and while the game is progressively getting more and more difficult. Not everyone likes this kind of game design, but I do - though, I also often have action elements in my puzzle games which makes them fundamentally a bit different from this game, so I'm not even sure how well it would work here. But at least it's an idea, if not one worth implementing.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 06, 2013, 08:14:49 am
@Rabid: nice! anxiously awaiting your first 4-star solution :) Although I think it's pretty hard on the lower levels, because they just might be optimal already. (scores (http://xorballs.dskl.net/scores.html))

@Awaclus: I don't completely agree with the order of the levels either. But especially the first levels are based on building the later building blocks yourself, and that surely also has a nice ring to it. And of course you can somewhat set your own difficulty level by the number of stars you consider acceptable. Finding any working solution is a lot easier then finding the 3-star solution.

If you lost a splitter but can't get it back, you either discovered a bug or the interface isn't clear to you. Because once a component is available, you always have an infinite supply of it.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Awaclus on April 06, 2013, 08:50:24 am
If you lost a splitter but can't get it back, you either discovered a bug or the interface isn't clear to you. Because once a component is available, you always have an infinite supply of it.
I discovered a bug. There was no splitter in the supply, just one that I got on the field during level 12. But now that I opened the game again, it is there in the supply.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Watno on April 06, 2013, 02:24:04 pm
Is there a way to make the balls go faster?

EDIT: Obviously there is.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: SirPeebles on April 06, 2013, 02:48:12 pm
I don't get it.  The ball just go straight through and nothing happens.  Are there instructions somewhere?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Watno on April 06, 2013, 02:56:15 pm
put the thing on the left in the grid by drag and drop.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 06, 2013, 03:00:19 pm
Help link is top left:
http://xorballs.dskl.net/help
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: math on April 06, 2013, 05:31:47 pm
Interesting puzzle.  I'm stuck on #15 now.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: theory on April 06, 2013, 06:07:45 pm
This reminds me of Trainyard and Refraction, two mobile games.  Has he tried those? 

I'd like an easy "clear-the-board" option, and also to clear the board in between puzzles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 06:26:39 pm
This reminds me of Trainyard and Refraction, two mobile games.  Has he tried those? 

I'd like an easy "clear-the-board" option, and also to clear the board in between puzzles.

You can group select everything on the board and drag it clear, so it's not terribly inconvenient.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 06:41:52 pm
I can't 3-star level 13. :(

Edit: nevermind, got it. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 06, 2013, 06:45:15 pm
I just got a new 4-star solution :)

On level 46 (colorful 2) solving in 17 what used to be 18.
It now looks very clean while my previous solution was quite a mess.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 06:48:11 pm
You can get four stars?  What.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Archetype on April 06, 2013, 06:52:32 pm
Can you get 4 stars on only certain levels?

If it's all of them, I'm fairly certain you can't get higher than 3 stars on the 1-3 levels.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 06:55:32 pm
I'm going to guess that 4 stars is when you beat whatever it thought was the optimal solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 06, 2013, 06:55:50 pm
You can get four stars?  What.

Well they're rare and don't hold up very long. When you do better then the currently best known solution you get 4 stars.
The server doesn't accept it automatically as a new best though, and when David wakes up tomorrow he'll probably check it and update the scores.
Then my 4-star solution becomes a 3-star solution, and at the same time everyone else having 3 on this level drops to 2 stars.

Until then, blue is pretty.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: SirPeebles on April 06, 2013, 06:58:43 pm
You can get four stars?  What.

Well they're rare and don't hold up very long. When you do better then the currently best known solution you get 4 stars.
The server doesn't accept it automatically as a new best though, and when David wakes up tomorrow he'll probably check it and update the scores.
Then my 4-star solution becomes a 3-star solution, and at the same time everyone else having 3 on this level drops to 2 stars.

Until then, blue is pretty.

Ah, that makes sense, given that it would probably be difficult to know the optimal solution ahead of time.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 07:06:35 pm
Well, I've got 2 stars on 15...

I am going to stop playing now before my completionist side takes over completely.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 07:07:49 pm
Well, I've got 2 stars on 15...

I am going to stop playing now before my completionist side takes over completely.

Just finished 15 with 3. I think the only one I've missed 3 stars on is 8.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Dsell on April 06, 2013, 07:10:24 pm
Well, I've got 2 stars on 15...

I am going to stop playing now before my completionist side takes over completely.

Just finished 15 with 3. I think the only one I've missed 3 stars on is 8.

I've got 3 stars on 15 and 8! But only 2 on 7 and 13. :'(
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2013, 07:12:58 pm
I'm on 27. Since getting custom tiles, I've been abusing their power. My ratings are terrible, but oh well :P.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 07:14:52 pm
Well, I've got 2 stars on 15...

I am going to stop playing now before my completionist side takes over completely.

Just finished 15 with 3. I think the only one I've missed 3 stars on is 8.

I've got 3 stars on 15 and 8! But only 2 on 7 and 13. :'(

I lied.  I got my 3 stars on 15 (and everything prior).

I don't know if I should keep going...



Edit: arghhh 2 stars on 16 (everything UP).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: math on April 06, 2013, 07:47:06 pm
How do you even solve 15?  I can't get it to work.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Qvist on April 06, 2013, 07:51:16 pm
I don't understand how the custom tiles are supposed to work. I've read the help but still don't get it. How can I program them?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 07:57:12 pm
I only have 2 stars on 16-18.  And then in 19, I have no idea how these custom tiles work.  The Help isn't very clear about it.

Ninja'd... I just don't see how the custom tile field associates with a tile on the left.  There is no new tile in the left panel...

Edit: wait, I think I've got it...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 07:58:28 pm
I only have 2 stars on 16-18.  And then in 19, I have no idea how these custom tiles work.  The Help isn't very clear about it.

I'm momentarily stuck on 16. I can get RDL to all go up on 5 tiles, but I can't flip up back in on itself.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 06, 2013, 08:00:43 pm
Good to see some people getting addicted :).
Stef, I'll let you keep your blue star until tomorrow.
I have played Trainyard but I don't know Refraction. I may try it some time.
I found Trainyard a bit tedious since it's mostly about getting the right train at the right point at the right time. I think the custom tiles remove that tediousness from this game but I realize getting 3 stars on a level is quite similar to solving a Trainyard level.

@math, level 15 is just like level 14 except vertical ;).

A custom tile is like an entire 9x9 grid that fits on one tile. It has the behavior of the tiles you put inside it. How can I explain it better?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2013, 08:02:04 pm
Yeah, custom tiles are a little confusing. Basically, when you have a custom tile selected, whatever happens to balls is what that custom tile will do when placed. The easiest way to get a grip on them is: Make two custom tiles. Name one something, leave the other as new, or call it level or something along those lines. Select the named one, place some stuff down (e.g. make something that a normal block doesn't do, like doubling in a straight line, or sending everything left except stuff from the left). Then select you new again, and put the block you made down.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 08:02:59 pm
Yeah, you have to drag the custom tile from the right, not from the left.  That was what confused me.  I thought there would be a way to save it and then it would appear in the left with the other tiles.


Now I am sad that I don't have 3 stars for Triple 1, because I don't know how to make my custom tiles efficient.  Only 1 star for Triple 2. :(

Anyway, I think this is getting too complicated for me. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Qvist on April 06, 2013, 08:15:44 pm
How are you gonna supposed to solve 17 with 4 tiles???
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 08:33:40 pm
How are you gonna supposed to solve 17 with 4 tiles???

Haaaaa, I got it! :D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 08:35:28 pm
How are you gonna supposed to solve 17 with 4 tiles???

Haaaaa, I got it! :D

I'm 1 tile over on 16 now, but at least I've got a solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 08:58:25 pm
How are you gonna supposed to solve 17 with 4 tiles???

Haaaaa, I got it! :D

That was more annoying than I'd like to admit.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 09:16:22 pm
So, I've got 3 stars for everything up to #18 (triple) with the exception of #16 (up).  For 16 I need 10 tiles, which is just 2 stars.

For #19 I need 12 tiles for 2 stars.  Can't find the last optimization.  And I can't get #20... Well, I probably could, but it would probably be a ton of effort for 1 star.  :'(
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 06, 2013, 09:27:45 pm
So the custom tiles are only there to save room, not to lower a score. (That is, 18 optimized to 3 stars, placed as 2 Custom Tiles in 19 (one spun 90 degrees) does not produce a 2 Tile solution, rather a 14 tile solution - or the 6 tiles each used in the custom tiles + 2 for the placement of the customs).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 09:31:18 pm
So the custom tiles are only there to save room, not to lower a score. (That is, 18 optimized to 3 stars, placed as 2 Custom Tiles in 19 (one spun 90 degrees) does not produce a 2 Tile solution, rather a 14 tile solution - or the 7 tiles each used in the custom tiles).

It lowers the number of tiles used if you can use the same custom tile twice.  For example, I know from puzzle 18 that the optimal solution for x3 is 6 tiles.  How many tiles would it take to do x9?  If I make a custom x3 tile and put two of them next to each other, the total number of tiles used would be 8.  So if you can reuse your custom tile, it's somewhat more efficient.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2013, 10:04:37 pm
Just did 43 in 9 tiles, thinking it was a very elegant and genius solution. Getting 1 star for that was depressing.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 06, 2013, 10:11:12 pm
Just did 43 in 9 tiles, thinking it was a very elegant and genius solution. Getting 1 star for that was depressing.

Yeah, rub it in our faces, 43. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 06, 2013, 10:14:05 pm
I haven't been going for stars :P.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 06, 2013, 10:26:06 pm
I haven't been going for stars :P.

Me too, I'm somewhere around there.  I a few levels ago got the paintbrush.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 12:00:57 am
I haven't been going for stars :P.

Fiiiiine.

34 tiles for level 20, hahaha.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 07, 2013, 12:08:19 am
I haven't been going for stars :P.

Fiiiiine.

34 tiles for level 20, hahaha.

I used 40 with my "just complete" solution. ;D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 12:31:04 am
I can't figure out how to get fewer than 6 tiles for 25, and I am legitimately stuck on 26.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Galzria on April 07, 2013, 12:42:27 am
I can't figure out how to get fewer than 6 tiles for 25, and I am legitimately stuck on 26.

I got through the first colored ball stage before shutting it down for the night.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 07, 2013, 01:24:47 am
Just did 43 in 9 tiles, thinking it was a very elegant and genius solution. Getting 1 star for that was depressing.

I just did 43, it took me 120...  HOW DID YOU DO IT?!?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 07, 2013, 05:22:38 am
I want to be able to use previous solutions as custom tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 07, 2013, 05:33:33 am
@Axxle, you can. Go to the previous level, press Ctrl+C. Go to the new level, press Ctrl+V. The solution should be inserted as a custom tile.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 07, 2013, 05:37:29 am
@Axxle, you can. Go to the previous level, press Ctrl+C. Go to the new level, press Ctrl+V. The solution should be inserted as a custom tile.
This makes me happy.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Kirian on April 07, 2013, 09:17:38 am
If your friend has not played Spacechem, he needs to.  It would be right up his alley.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: pacovf on April 07, 2013, 09:44:09 am
If your friend has not played Spacechem, he needs to.  It would be right up his alley.

So true, they are quite similar. There's even a somewhat long demo to try for free!

I got stuck at the final ice level. Not having stoichiometric proportions bugs me a lot.

At Xorballs, I am stuck at level 20, and the 3-star solution to 19 seems impossible to me :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Kirian on April 07, 2013, 09:52:51 am
If your friend has not played Spacechem, he needs to.  It would be right up his alley.

So true, they are quite similar. There's even a somewhat long demo to try for free!

I got stuck at the final ice level. Not having stoichiometric proportions bugs me a lot.

At Xorballs, I am stuck at level 20, and the 3-star solution to 19 seems impossible to me :P

I can't even remember where I finally got stuck, though I got stuck based more on time to play than anything.  A game that can easily take 3 hours/level can suck your time away rapidly.

His other games are pretty awesome too, of course.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 07, 2013, 10:16:06 am
At Xorballs, I am stuck at level 20, and the 3-star solution to 19 seems impossible to me :P

I remember a similar frustration back when the best score was 10 on this level. And then I came up with a 9-tile solution :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 10:37:02 am
Man, I've just realised that when you get onto later levels, the game actually checks everything, not just the example inputs. I tried to do 48 using a clever colour changer, only to see the game test different colours to the standard yellow, which of course failed. This one is hard.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 10:40:16 am
At Xorballs, I am stuck at level 20, and the 3-star solution to 19 seems impossible to me :P

I remember a similar frustration back when the best score was 10 on this level. And then I came up with a 9-tile solution :)


I guess my 100 tile solution is well off the best then...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 07, 2013, 10:44:26 am
At Xorballs, I am stuck at level 20, and the 3-star solution to 19 seems impossible to me :P

I remember a similar frustration back when the best score was 10 on this level. And then I came up with a 9-tile solution :)


I guess my 100 tile solution is well off the best then...

That depends. Is 100 in binary notation?
In that case I'm using 110 tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 07, 2013, 12:14:58 pm
Man, I've just realised that when you get onto later levels, the game actually checks everything, not just the example inputs. I tried to do 48 using a clever colour changer, only to see the game test different colours to the standard yellow, which of course failed. This one is hard.

I did the same thing in 52 (and it worked!) but then in 53 I wanted to use 52 and then it didn't work...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 01:02:06 pm
It's way away from the most elegant solution I'm sure, but I'm pretty happy with my solution to puzzle 50 (memory), just because of it's complexity. It uses all 9x9 rows and no custom tiles, and actually needs all 9x9 squares. I possible could shave a row out, but I don't think so (it's a * solution so obviously it can be improved, but you know)

http://i48.tinypic.com/104gvw8.png - link to avoid spoilers.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: qmech on April 07, 2013, 01:16:51 pm
Are the high scores visible anywhere?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 07, 2013, 01:37:32 pm
http://xorballs.dskl.net/scores.html
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 07, 2013, 01:37:54 pm
It's way away from the most elegant solution I'm sure, but I'm pretty happy with my solution to puzzle 50 (memory), just because of it's complexity. It uses all 9x9 rows and no custom tiles, and actually needs all 9x9 squares. I possible could shave a row out, but I don't think so (it's a * solution so obviously it can be improved, but you know)

http://i48.tinypic.com/104gvw8.png - link to avoid spoilers.
If you want to discuss solutions, there is an 'export solution' button in the top right. That way other people can actually click 'play' and see it work. Unfortunalety those urls end on a ] which kind of bites the url-tag on this forum. I will not be posting my memory-solution, because it's too nice a level to spoil. If you really want to know you can ask me in a PM though.

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,memory,[0,split%20green:40B41150F607612]Here's a trick I've been using when I want to single out a specific color. I don't actually use it in my solution for this level but I do on some others. And it could improve your solution here.

Edit: just pasted the url text, as even goo.gl doesn't seem to help.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 07, 2013, 01:40:00 pm
@Kirian, I tried Spacechem recently but to be honest I found navigating the waldos too tedious to continue.

@Stef, your link doesn't work. Maybe use a URL shortener?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: popsofctown on April 07, 2013, 02:11:01 pm
I can't beat 16.  I'm a programmer.  This makes me feel stupid
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 07, 2013, 02:49:29 pm
Fun game, but I'm confused about the scoring for custom tiles. For example, I made my 6 tile solution from lvl18 into a custom tile. For Level 21, I just placed three of triple tiles in a row to make 27. I got a score of 9. How is that calculated? Shouldn't each custom tile count as 6 since that's the number of tiles used in them?

EDIT: OK, I think I figured out how the actual scoring works, though I'm not sure why it's that way. You only count the inner workings of the custom tile once no matter how many times it's used. Then you count one for each custom tile placed (including the first). In my example above, the custom tile contained 6 tiles and I placed 3 of them, thus giving a score of 9. So if you want to optimize score, don't use a custom tile unless you place multiple copies of it. But use custom tiles whenever you can if you have repeating parts.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 07, 2013, 03:05:31 pm
That is counted as (6 basic tiles + 3 special tiles = 9 total).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Hks on April 07, 2013, 03:31:15 pm
Really creative game! But I can't understand how costum titles work :-\
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Qvist on April 07, 2013, 04:13:16 pm
I can't beat 16.  I'm a programmer.  This makes me feel stupid
This is a tough one. I currently only have a 14 tile solution for that after I was stuck for a while on that one. Now I'm stuck at 26 again.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 05:16:56 pm
I've done 16 in 13 tiles, which still isn't the best. I just tried to improve 26 and felt happy about the solution, until I noticed it wasn't crediting me with victory... because I'd actually only built an 18 tile version of level 0  :-[
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Dsell on April 07, 2013, 05:23:30 pm
YES I FINALLY GOT 16!

That took way longer than it should have... ::)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Dsell on April 07, 2013, 05:24:11 pm
I've done 16 in 13 tiles, which still isn't the best. I just tried to improve 26 and felt happy about the solution, until I noticed it wasn't crediting me with victory... because I'd actually only built an 18 tile version of level 0  :-[

I did it in 11 but only got 2 stars. :-\
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 08:35:52 pm
In my browsing I saw the below gif. And it immediately reminded me of Xorballs. How can I game I've played for like two days be affecting me this much already?

(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7273094656/h456EDF46/)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 08:36:09 pm
Does the order of the outputs matter?  I think I have the correct outputs for level 37, but I'm not getting credit for it.  The only differences are in ordering.  For example, the expected output is "red yellow" but I get "yellow red".  I never noticed it mattering before.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 07, 2013, 08:37:27 pm
In my browsing I saw the below gif. And it immediately reminded me of Xorballs. How can I game I've played for like two days be affecting me this much already?

-snip-
Xorballs intrudes on real life?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 08:37:38 pm
I've done 16 in 13 tiles, which still isn't the best. I just tried to improve 26 and felt happy about the solution, until I noticed it wasn't crediting me with victory... because I'd actually only built an 18 tile version of level 0  :-[

I did it in 11 but only got 2 stars. :-\

I'm at 10 tiles... also 2 stars.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 08:44:27 pm
Does the order of the outputs matter?  I think I have the correct outputs for level 37, but I'm not getting credit for it.  The only differences are in ordering.  For example, the expected output is "red yellow" but I get "yellow red".  I never noticed it mattering before.

I just changed it such that it actually does the right order too (costing me like 10 extra tiles) but this one bugs out even more.  After the run completes, it changes the top display to a completely different example input and expected output.

Edit:

Trying to export solutions...

Here is the one that has a differing order:
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,direction,[3,main:05614015825J30731832435541044748a053663H738740835],[0,%3C:22023032I35137142143145A460470520530561571]

Here is the one with the right order that bugs into a different example:
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,direction,[1,main%20copy:04J05614015825H30731832435541044748a253663G73874083584H],[2,%3C%20copy:20021027028030H33135138I40141143A440450471481500510541551570580]

The bug in the second one looks like what happens when I change the tiles during a run.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 07, 2013, 08:53:54 pm
Order matters on 37.
Description mentions colours preceding other colours.
Took me a while to figure out the 2nd Input.
I think it is testing the Blue / Blue pair.
To check which of them is "real" and which is the direction indicator.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 07, 2013, 08:59:26 pm
Here is the one with the right order that bugs into a different example:
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,direction,[1,main%20copy:04J05614015825H30731832435541044748a253663G73874083584H],[2,%3C%20copy:20021027028030H33135138I40141143A440450471481500510541551570580]

The bug in the second one looks like what happens when I change the tiles during a run.

This is failing on Blue from the right.
I think it needs to solve for all inputs from the description.
Not just the example inputs listed.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 09:02:18 pm
What description?  If you mean the image, I can't always decipher what it's looking for...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Rabid on April 07, 2013, 09:03:34 pm
Mouse over the image top left.
Should get a description.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 09:13:22 pm
Mouse over the image top left.
Should get a description.

Why must it be so difficult. :(
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 07, 2013, 09:14:16 pm
If you want to test the blue ball from the left, you can do a custom input. Just change the input color to not blue so you'll actually know which is the "real" blue one.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 09:18:20 pm
If you want to test the blue ball from the left, you can do a custom input. Just change the input color to not blue so you'll actually know which is the "real" blue one.

Didn't even realize you could do custom inputs.  Neat!

Well, I just have to figure out how to delay balls coming in from the left so that the yellow goes out first...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 07, 2013, 09:27:37 pm
@Axxle, you can. Go to the previous level, press Ctrl+C. Go to the new level, press Ctrl+V. The solution should be inserted as a custom tile.
This makes me happy.
I haven't been able to try this until today.  I haven't been able to get it to work.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 09:32:22 pm
@Axxle, you can. Go to the previous level, press Ctrl+C. Go to the new level, press Ctrl+V. The solution should be inserted as a custom tile.
This makes me happy.
I haven't been able to try this until today.  I haven't been able to get it to work.

You don't have to select anything.  Just ctrl+C.

And I got 37!  Sweet single star!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 07, 2013, 09:33:54 pm
Nope, trying on firefox, are you using something different?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 07, 2013, 09:44:48 pm
OK, I have a new challenge. On level 1, what's the highest number of tiles you can use and still win? Only rule is each tile must be used at least once. My record is 36.

link (http://tinyurl.com/cx6nxkq)

EDIT: Got it up to 47. I'm feeling a bit dizzy.  http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu (http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 07, 2013, 10:18:22 pm
Hints for 8. Please.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 07, 2013, 10:23:40 pm
Try and find a way to do the two opposite sides that doesn't intrude on the centre area, then mimic it for top and bottom.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 07, 2013, 10:26:34 pm
Hints for 8. Please.

I'm sure there are a bunch of solutions for 8 which use the minimum number. All of them operate on the principal that 4n-1 lefts make a right. For n = 1,2...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 10:39:33 pm
Try and find a way to do the two opposite sides that doesn't intrude on the centre area, then mimic it for top and bottom.

My 3-star solution for 8 has no lines of symmetry. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 07, 2013, 11:48:06 pm
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution (I can't get the url thing to work, just copy and paste) (Remember, this is spoilers): http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438450538540558638648]
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 07, 2013, 11:54:14 pm
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution: http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438458538540558638648]

The hyperlink gets screwed up with the brackets. I've been using tinyurl to fix it. More importantly, that solution doesn't seem work.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 07, 2013, 11:56:31 pm
47 what the heck...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 07, 2013, 11:58:45 pm
Oops, I copied it from my brother's computer wrong.  It's fixed.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on April 08, 2013, 02:11:25 am
Brilliant. Currently banging my head against the wall on level 19. I can get a solution but I'm trying for the third star. Best I can do is 12 tiles and I'm stumped on how to reduce that number.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 08, 2013, 02:18:29 am
47 what the heck...

I think this is where I stop.  That was a nice diversion for the weekend.  47 is weird enough that I can't just mess around and hope to get a clue.  I'll keep it in the back of my mind though...

Edit: aaaaand right after I said that, I figured it out.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 02:50:53 am
@sudgy, cool! How would your brother like to be credited on http://xorballs.dskl.net/scores.html ?
Also, maybe better hide the solution so others have a chance to do it themselve.

@Axxle, Are you on a Mac? Then it's CMD+C/CMD+V. It's whatever the copy/paste keys are on your operating system.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 02:51:50 am
In my browsing I saw the below gif. And it immediately reminded me of Xorballs. How can I game I've played for like two days be affecting me this much already?

(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7273094656/h456EDF46/)

That's awesome!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: SCSN on April 08, 2013, 03:16:56 am
Right now this...

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,[0,new:217228276420477]
...is my solution to 17. It uses 5 tiles and I can't figure out how to do it with 4, could someone help me out?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 08, 2013, 03:26:06 am
17 is a fun one, I gave that a whirl to get down to 4 last night. So fortunately, yes I can help out

Edit: Actually read Jonts post before checking this link!

(Spoilers) http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,[0,new:307318324410]

47 what the heck...

I think this is where I stop.  That was a nice diversion for the weekend.  47 is weird enough that I can't just mess around and hope to get a clue.  I'll keep it in the back of my mind though...

Edit: aaaaand right after I said that, I figured it out.

47 is just an introduction level for the concept... but if that weirded you out, check 48...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 08, 2013, 03:29:10 am
Right now this...

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,[0,new:217228276420477]
...is my solution to 17. It uses 5 tiles and I can't figure out how to do it with 4, could someone help me out?

You are so incredibly close. Try to find a quicker way to get the right split ball to where you want to go.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 03:32:01 am
Right now this...

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,[0,new:217228276420477]
...is my solution to 17. It uses 5 tiles and I can't figure out how to do it with 4, could someone help me out?
You have figured it out already. You just applied the method to only half of your solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 08, 2013, 03:39:58 am
Right now this...

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,[0,new:217228276420477]
...is my solution to 17. It uses 5 tiles and I can't figure out how to do it with 4, could someone help me out?
You almost have it.  Try to be a bit more symmetric.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 08, 2013, 03:42:01 am
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution (I can't get the url thing to work, just copy and paste): http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438450538540558638648]

Woohoo! the first improvement on the scores by dominionstrategy.com
Congrats to your brother.

Why did he have to improve a level where I was holding the best score? ;)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 08, 2013, 03:48:32 am
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution (I can't get the url thing to work, just copy and paste): http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438450538540558638648]

Woohoo! the first improvement on the scores by dominionstrategy.com
Congrats to your brother.

Why did he have to improve a level where I was holding the best score? ;)

If only levels where you aren't holding the top score werent in short supply.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 08, 2013, 04:09:41 am
47 is just an introduction level for the concept... but if that weirded you out, check 48...

I 3-starred it!

And I got 48, except it took 15 tiles.  But now that I've found the optimal solution for 47, I'm trying to optimize 48.

But it is late and I really really really should go to bed and then actually do other things this week, so I am going to try to avoid this game for a while.  Ugh.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Ozle on April 08, 2013, 05:44:31 am
it took me several minutes to work out that the bottom half of the screen was showing the level and the top half was the components....not sure I shall get too far in this!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: timchen on April 08, 2013, 08:02:52 am
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution (I can't get the url thing to work, just copy and paste): http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438450538540558638648]
This is amazing. How did he get that?

My own effort gives me 8: from symmetry arguments I can sort of say that this requires 3 splitters and 1 "time-reversal-breaking" rotations if the solution is small enough. (My solution is equivalent for the 5 tiles at the left; notice the lower-left splitter is not  necessary and can just be a yellow line.) Those 5 tiles gives the correct output except for the top input.

Adding the 2 tiles on the right to correct that (by giving the path from the right to from above and form an alternative path for itself) is... amazing.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 08, 2013, 08:26:24 am
OK, I have a new challenge. On level 1, what's the highest number of tiles you can use and still win? Only rule is each tile must be used at least once. My record is 36.

link (http://tinyurl.com/cx6nxkq)

EDIT: Got it up to 47. I'm feeling a bit dizzy.  http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu (http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu)

I've got 48 (http://tinyurl.com/bmw62ug) :)
The start is symmetrical so no headaches there.
And I'm pretty sure the end can be improved upon but not right now.

Edit: zut it's illegal. one the middle line (horizontal) the rightmost tile is unused
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 11:56:05 am
...My brother just got a 4-star solution.  On level 16.  He used seven tiles.

EDIT: Here's the solution (I can't get the url thing to work, just copy and paste): http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,up,[0,new:438450538540558638648]
This is amazing. How did he get that?

My own effort gives me 8: from symmetry arguments I can sort of say that this requires 3 splitters and 1 "time-reversal-breaking" rotations if the solution is small enough. (My solution is equivalent for the 5 tiles at the left; notice the lower-left splitter is not  necessary and can just be a yellow line.) Those 5 tiles gives the correct output except for the top input.

Adding the 2 tiles on the right to correct that (by giving the path from the right to from above and form an alternative path for itself) is... amazing.

He literally was just trying random things.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Kirian on April 08, 2013, 12:00:29 pm
@Kirian, I tried Spacechem recently but to be honest I found navigating the waldos too tedious to continue.

Heh.  I guess you and I have very different tastes then!  I got stuck on like level 9 or 10 and haven't really had the patience to try more.  I'd love to know what the other gadgets are, but apparently I can only make left and right turns for now.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 08, 2013, 12:25:12 pm
OK, I have a new challenge. On level 1, what's the highest number of tiles you can use and still win? Only rule is each tile must be used at least once. My record is 36.

link (http://tinyurl.com/cx6nxkq)

EDIT: Got it up to 47. I'm feeling a bit dizzy.  http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu (http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu)

I've got 48 (http://tinyurl.com/bmw62ug) :)
The start is symmetrical so no headaches there.
And I'm pretty sure the end can be improved upon but not right now.

Edit: zut it's illegal. one the middle line (horizontal) the rightmost tile is unused

With a bit more time I got to 51 (http://tinyurl.com/bsrlqmg).
Not at all certain this is max though.

Edit: Nope, 54 (http://tinyurl.com/btwta62) is definitely more.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 12:35:23 pm
David, my brother said he would want to be called, "drbop".
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 01:56:54 pm
Done!
http://xorballs.dskl.net/scores.html
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 02:24:11 pm
Wait, has nobody beaten level 60 yet?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 02:43:50 pm
Level 60 has no solution.
There will be more levels, but the last level is always a placeholder just so you can continue playing around with tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: heron on April 08, 2013, 03:17:33 pm
Well, I only needed 53 tiles for level 20  :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 03:29:57 pm
I'm not sure what happened, but now (I'm on level 55) when it fails to work, one of the custom tiles (the solution to level 48) stops working.  If I run that tile by itself the main one works again.

EDIT: And now other ones do the same thing.  I can still play, it's just annoying.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 03:40:53 pm
And wow.  That was weird.  It glitched on the testing, and I just ran it again and it worked...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 08, 2013, 03:42:03 pm
This game is amazing. It makes me feel smart and stupid at the same time.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 03:44:35 pm
@sudgy: I'm not following you. If you can reproduce the problem, can you be more specific about what's going wrong?

@Drab Emordnilap: Awesome! Can I use that quote? :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 08, 2013, 03:49:23 pm
Go for it.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 08, 2013, 03:54:54 pm
I feel like I'm only capable of the kludgiest of solutions. Took me 14 tiles to beat lvl 48 and 16 for 49. Question for those who have efficient solutions for lvl40+ levels - do you use a lot f custom tiles? I find I don't really bother often and not sure how helpful they really are.

Also what is your methodology. I find myself, especially for the more complicated later levels, trying to think of what I want to do at each step modularly and then do it. But it's really hard to simplify the solution and allow a lot of tiles to pull double duty that way.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on April 08, 2013, 04:13:46 pm
Just a note -- don't fill the entire field with splitter tiles, if you value your computer's memory.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 08, 2013, 04:23:13 pm
@jonts26, what you are doing was my original intention for the game. During play-testing we realized it was also fun to try to find the smallest solution so I started to keep scores manually and then later I added the stars. Maybe I should start a gallery of really nicely modularized solutions to credit those as well? What do you think?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 08, 2013, 04:57:06 pm
I feel like I'm only capable of the kludgiest of solutions. Took me 14 tiles to beat lvl 48 and 16 for 49. Question for those who have efficient solutions for lvl40+ levels - do you use a lot f custom tiles? I find I don't really bother often and not sure how helpful they really are.

Also what is your methodology. I find myself, especially for the more complicated later levels, trying to think of what I want to do at each step modularly and then do it. But it's really hard to simplify the solution and allow a lot of tiles to pull double duty that way.

I've got 11 tiles for 48 but 22 tiles for 49.  No customs for either.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 08, 2013, 06:09:14 pm
I feel like I'm only capable of the kludgiest of solutions. Took me 14 tiles to beat lvl 48 and 16 for 49. Question for those who have efficient solutions for lvl40+ levels - do you use a lot f custom tiles? I find I don't really bother often and not sure how helpful they really are.

Also what is your methodology. I find myself, especially for the more complicated later levels, trying to think of what I want to do at each step modularly and then do it. But it's really hard to simplify the solution and allow a lot of tiles to pull double duty that way.

I used to build huge solutions too. It took me a while to get the hang of optimizing them. Usually while optimizing the custom tiles that I used at first disappear. But building the solution first with some custom tiles makes it better to read and easier to grasp the essence of my own solution. Stripping the non-essentials out is very important. On the levels you're referring to (40-50) only one of my solutions uses a custom tile in the final solution. After that I use them more and more.

On the methodology - optimizing most of the lower solution is all about removing unnecessary turns. I try to use mirrors wherever possible (most of them also could be an arrow or turn) because the mirrors make it clear to me that this turn is somehow redundant.

Splitters that don't really split are very useful for local optimizations too. By this I mean a splitter (usually a left split or a right split) where one of the balls always goes into some wall. I just need a turn from one direction and a straight from another.

Optimizing the more complex levels is more interesting. I once was proud of my 36-tile solution to direct4, using 3 instances of my own direct2 and connecting them with a stripped-down-version of 'encode'. And then I thought of an entirely different approach, not even behind a computer. That quickly dropped it to 30 and after some more local optimizations it got to 27. Memory (lvl 50) & Storage (lvl 56) also are based on ideas that evolved while on my bike. Encode (lvl39) and Colorful (lvl38) are examples of quite the opposite: no way I'd find these without trying it out.

And then there's the really complex things that haven't been turned into a level (yet?). I made a "tree-based memory", where you can read/write any word (reds&blues) on any address (reds&blues). There 90% of the work was with pen&paper before I even dared to touch the computer. And I never bothered to optimize it. David made a prime generator, which wasn't optimized either, but quite cool nonetheless. By the time we get to a Turing machine, nobody cares about stars no more. A readable/debugable/explainable machine feels just better.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: mith on April 08, 2013, 06:17:25 pm
This looks very similar to Manufactoria (http://www.kongregate.com/games/pleasingfungus/manufactoria).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 08, 2013, 07:12:27 pm
Hints for 8. Please.

I'm sure there are a bunch of solutions for 8 which use the minimum number. All of them operate on the principal that 4n-1 lefts make a right. For n = 1,2...

Posted this very late at night, manage to solve it now without this hint (although with lots of parts, only 1 star :(). I mainly used the subrule for n=2.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: popsofctown on April 08, 2013, 07:40:26 pm
It's really sadistic how they give you something with a multiple tile solution, then immediately afterwards give you a new tile that would enable a single tile solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Axxle on April 08, 2013, 07:46:56 pm
It's really sadistic how they give you something with a multiple tile solution, then immediately afterwards give you a new tile that would enable a single tile solution.
Once you get to custom tiles that's every puzzle.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 07:47:12 pm
It's really sadistic how they give you something with a multiple tile solution, then immediately afterwards give you a new tile that would enable a single tile solution.

That's the point.  You just created the tile, now you can use it whenever you want.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 08, 2013, 07:49:08 pm
@sudgy: I'm not following you. If you can reproduce the problem, can you be more specific about what's going wrong?

It just seems like my whole "file" is glitched.  Another bug (that may or may not be related, I'm not sure) I found is that if you go back to an earlier level, beat it, don't say to go to the next level yet, click on the most recent level, then click to go on, you kind of go to the next level.  I didn't realize anything wrong (after I clicked an earlier level) until I beat the latest level I had and the next one had an older version of the one I had just beat.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: popsofctown on April 08, 2013, 07:58:44 pm
It's really sadistic how they give you something with a multiple tile solution, then immediately afterwards give you a new tile that would enable a single tile solution.

That's the point.  You just created the tile, now you can use it whenever you want.
Except your version of the tile took up a lot more real estate...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 09, 2013, 03:05:18 am
This looks very similar to Manufactoria (http://www.kongregate.com/games/pleasingfungus/manufactoria).
Actually, that's what a friend said when I explained him my idea 1.5 years ago before I had made anything.
It's a cool game as well.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 09, 2013, 10:08:44 am
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 09, 2013, 10:50:34 am
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles
With colours you can do it with 2
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 11:10:15 am
Got to custom tiles! Yay!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 09, 2013, 11:22:56 am
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles
With colours you can do it with 2

Really? So any colour comes from the left, same colour leaves on the right. Any colour comes from any other direction, nothing leaves?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 09, 2013, 11:25:57 am
Really? So any colour comes from the left, same colour leaves on the right. Any colour comes from any other direction, nothing leaves?
Assume fixed colours (without it doesn't work I guess)

a) 4 different colours: In this case, solution is possible with just 1 piece, the corresponding filter for colour from left in the middle field.
b) less than 4 colours: In this case, there is a unused colour, paint the left ball in this colour at its entrance, and filter for said colour in the middle field.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 09, 2013, 11:27:44 am
Really? So any colour comes from the left, same colour leaves on the right. Any colour comes from any other direction, nothing leaves?
Assume fixed colours (without it doesn't work I guess)

a) 4 different colours: In this case, solution is possible with just 1 piece, the corresponding filter for colour from left in the middle field.
b) less than 4 colours: In this case, there is a unused colour, paint the left ball in this colour at its entrance, and filter for said colour in the middle field.


That's changing the puzzle and making a heck of a lot of assumptions.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 09, 2013, 11:30:29 am
That's changing the puzzle and making a heck of a lot of assumptions.

Where do I change it? As far as I am, balls have a fixed colour. Might change of course...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 09, 2013, 11:33:38 am
My puzzle: Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

Your puzzle: X colour balls enter from the left, Y colour from the top, Z colour from the bottom and W colour from the right. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

Edit: Or maybe just Balls Of a specific colour can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 09, 2013, 11:37:59 am
As I said, I was under the naive assumption that balls actually have colours.  Even said so "with colours you can do ..."
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 09, 2013, 01:13:27 pm
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles

Pretty easy.

It only takes two tiles, spinner and arrow, to make a "one way" gate.  Put that along the horizontal so that pieces can't go from right to left.  Then put another spinner  along the vertical to block all up/down balls.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 03:15:50 pm
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles

Pretty easy.

It only takes two tiles, spinner and arrow, to make a "one way" gate.  Put that along the horizontal so that pieces can't go from right to left.  Then put another spinner  along the vertical to block all up/down balls.

Whaaat?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 09, 2013, 03:26:21 pm
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles

Pretty easy.

It only takes two tiles, spinner and arrow, to make a "one way" gate.  Put that along the horizontal so that pieces can't go from right to left.  Then put another spinner  along the vertical to block all up/down balls.

Whaaat?

I think he means like this: http://tinyurl.com/d4492sr (http://tinyurl.com/d4492sr)

That's the 3 tile solution.

Side note, those one way gates have become a staple of my later level solutions despite knowing that they probably arent part of the optimal solutions.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2013, 03:48:31 pm
I have weird gates that do things like when it comes from up, it goes down, when it comes from left or right, it goes up, and when it comes from down, it goes left.  And for all orientations and mirrors.  They are one of the most amazing things ever.  I can't think of the last level I haven't used them in...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 08:37:32 pm
Here's a fun mini challenge if the later ones are frustrating you.

Balls can enter from any direction. Balls from the left leave on the right. All other balls do not leave.

I believe the optimal solution is 3 tiles

Pretty easy.

It only takes two tiles, spinner and arrow, to make a "one way" gate.  Put that along the horizontal so that pieces can't go from right to left.  Then put another spinner  along the vertical to block all up/down balls.

Whaaat?

I think he means like this: http://tinyurl.com/d4492sr (http://tinyurl.com/d4492sr)

That's the 3 tile solution.

Side note, those one way gates have become a staple of my later level solutions despite knowing that they probably arent part of the optimal solutions.

Nice trick, didn't do it so far, probably would have helped me much.

Now, I have a problem. I have a working solution to level 43, but when I solve it, I don't get "you solved it window" but another puzzle appears, with different input and output, and nothing gets unlocked :O

I can post solution for somebody to check or something..


Nvm, misunderstood the level.
Whole level needs to work on two modes, not each gate. Sigh.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2013, 08:45:23 pm
Now, I have a problem. I have a working solution to level 43, but when I solve it, I don't get "you solved it window" but another puzzle appears, with different input and output, and nothing gets unlocked :O

I can post solution for somebody to check or something..

The help wasn't too clear about this, in each level you are trying to build a machine.  Just because you have the correct input and output doesn't mean you built what it was asking you to.  The new input and output is showing you what is wrong with it.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 08:46:04 pm
Now, I have a problem. I have a working solution to level 43, but when I solve it, I don't get "you solved it window" but another puzzle appears, with different input and output, and nothing gets unlocked :O

I can post solution for somebody to check or something..

The help wasn't too clear about this, in each level you are trying to build a machine.  Just because you have the correct input and output doesn't mean you built what it was asking you to.  The new input and output is showing you what is wrong with it.


Edited already, yeah, I got what I was doing wrong.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 09:36:25 pm
Solved it.
Thanks for 1-way gates tip, it made this much easier :D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2013, 09:57:20 pm
Some of these later levels are ridiculous...  Listen to this one: "Balls come in from any direction.  For the first ball nothing comes out.  For each ball after the first, the previous color ball comes out on the opposite side of where the current ball came in."
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 09, 2013, 10:13:30 pm
Some of these later levels are ridiculous...  Listen to this one: "Balls come in from any direction.  For the first ball nothing comes out.  For each ball after the first, the previous color ball comes out on the opposite side of where the current ball came in."

Wuuut?

I already find 45 quite hard and will need a lot of time. Should sleep now htough. (didn't start it yet, no idea how to divide by 3 :p maybe by 6 is double).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 09, 2013, 10:40:38 pm
Some of these later levels are ridiculous...  Listen to this one: "Balls come in from any direction.  For the first ball nothing comes out.  For each ball after the first, the previous color ball comes out on the opposite side of where the current ball came in."

I like this one.  I think my solution is pretty.  It was worth 2 stars, and it might be 3 stars if I could just find the 3 star solution to #48.  I have 3 star for #47 but only 2 star for the reset, which is what I need for Storage 1.

#59 is destroying me, all the more because I know it's the last one.  I feel like I'm very close (with a ridiculously inelegant solution) but there is just some little bug somewhere I can't find.

If anyone is curious as to what #59 is, it's a stack.  Red and blue balls enter from the left but have no output.  Instead, they are stored in a stack.  A green ball will pop a ball from the stack and output it.  If the stack is empty, a yellow is output instead.

The example input output is:

rbbggrggg
___bb_rry


I think my most hilarious solution so far is for #56.  271 tiles!  It's because I used a previous solution as a custom tile and then I duplicated it with minor changes... not to mention overuse of lots of spinners that could probably be simplified with splitters and arrows.

Feature request: a shortcut for rotating or mirroring all tiles on a board.  Would be nice for custom tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2013, 10:52:16 pm
I think I'm using a lot more for 56 than you...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 09, 2013, 10:57:53 pm
I think I'm using a lot more for 56 than you...

But I can't imagine that 271 tiles is efficient.  And it's a 1-star solution.

Edit: how many tiles did you use for 55?  Mine is 37.  That's 24 tiles in my main tile, 4 of which are a custom tile with 13 tiles.  The custom tile is based on my solution for 48, which was 11 tiles and only 2 stars.  If I could find the optimal solution for 48, that might be enough to get the optimal for 55... and that would also help 56, but not even close to enough. :P

But my 55 is beautiful!  Nothing spinning madly in weird directions.  Completely focused.  and tiles clearly ordered.  I want to post it, but I don't want to spoil it for people. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on April 09, 2013, 11:01:21 pm
David, is there any way that you could see my file?  I saved it to google...  I'm on another computer now and it's still not working correctly.  It's hard to even test things because the custom tiles don't work usually.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 10, 2013, 01:29:40 am
I checked the score page and saw that the best solution for #57 is 5 tiles... I had it at 13 and just cut it down to 9.  :-\
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 10, 2013, 06:17:36 am
Everything after about 50 is insane, I have to say. I'm on I think #53 and I have a good idea for solving it, but haven't done it yet. My first thought upon seeing it was "nope."
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 10, 2013, 07:49:57 am
Some of these later levels are ridiculous...  Listen to this one: "Balls come in from any direction.  For the first ball nothing comes out.  For each ball after the first, the previous color ball comes out on the opposite side of where the current ball came in."

Wuuut?

I already find 45 quite hard and will need a lot of time. Should sleep now htough. (didn't start it yet, no idea how to divide by 3 :p maybe by 6 is double).

Ok, I'm officially an idiot. It's easy, just needed to brush up on my electronics, you basically need to make a sort of a flip-flop thingy.

Edit:
LEVEL 50! On a related note, getting the hang of this alternating things.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 10, 2013, 11:46:35 am
OK, I have a new challenge. On level 1, what's the highest number of tiles you can use and still win? Only rule is each tile must be used at least once. My record is 36.

link (http://tinyurl.com/cx6nxkq)

EDIT: Got it up to 47. I'm feeling a bit dizzy.  http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu (http://tinyurl.com/cnozqzu)

I really liked this new challenge, and now I found a new solution (http://goo.gl/2mlbR).
It's remarkably symmetric actually. I started out with this solution (http://goo.gl/gpPZb) to level 6 and then had to remove some to exit at the right gate.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 10, 2013, 02:07:05 pm
Level 53 - I used 3/4 of the board for 52, how the hell am I going to fit THIS in ?  :o
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 10, 2013, 02:08:29 pm
Level 53 - I used 3/4 of the board for 52, how the hell am I going to fit THIS in ?  :o

Custom tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 10, 2013, 02:24:12 pm
Yeah, I know, but I tend to use them only in very steamlined levels (like Decoder one) - and this one is going to be a mess. Oh, well.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 10, 2013, 03:42:05 pm
Ok, high score challenge for puzzle #8 has proved to be fairly challenging. My best so far is 43. But there's a lot of blank space out there.

43 tile solution: http://tinyurl.com/brz5pbe (http://tinyurl.com/brz5pbe)

EDIT: another 43 tile solution, but with more symmetry. Aesthetics count for something right? http://tinyurl.com/cmxlz5y (http://tinyurl.com/cmxlz5y)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 10, 2013, 06:04:23 pm
Ok, high score challenge for puzzle #8 has proved to be fairly challenging. My best so far is 43. But there's a lot of blank space out there.

43 tile solution: http://tinyurl.com/brz5pbe (http://tinyurl.com/brz5pbe)

EDIT: another 43 tile solution, but with more symmetry. Aesthetics count for something right? http://tinyurl.com/cmxlz5y (http://tinyurl.com/cmxlz5y)

Are you kidding? Aesthetics are all that matters for ridiculous challenges like these ;)
So I'm submitting this 53 (http://goo.gl/rQT4L) with nice symmetry, not the ugly 56 (http://goo.gl/WHwGJ).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 10, 2013, 07:41:14 pm
Level 53 - I used 3/4 of the board for 52, how the hell am I going to fit THIS in ?  :o

I haven't done 53, but I think I can do it easily, if somewhat messily. Make 52 into a custom tile. Have three copies of it. Then the first outputs up for red/blue (use splitters & colour change for this) and down for yellow/green, and gets send into the second or third tile respectively, where the proper direction is determined.

It's a slightly vague solution, but if you've gotten this far, it should be very do-able.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 11, 2013, 12:58:34 am
Level 53 - I used 3/4 of the board for 52, how the hell am I going to fit THIS in ?  :o

I haven't done 53, but I think I can do it easily, if somewhat messily. Make 52 into a custom tile. Have three copies of it. Then the first outputs up for red/blue (use splitters & colour change for this) and down for yellow/green, and gets send into the second or third tile respectively, where the proper direction is determined.

It's a slightly vague solution, but if you've gotten this far, it should be very do-able.

Yeah, solved it already made 4 copies of level 52, and than some sheneningans. 202 tiles, best is 27 :D

54 is a breeeze!
And can be done in much less than my messy 22 tiles. :D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 02:18:40 am
Level 53 - I used 3/4 of the board for 52, how the hell am I going to fit THIS in ?  :o

I haven't done 53, but I think I can do it easily, if somewhat messily. Make 52 into a custom tile. Have three copies of it. Then the first outputs up for red/blue (use splitters & colour change for this) and down for yellow/green, and gets send into the second or third tile respectively, where the proper direction is determined.

It's a slightly vague solution, but if you've gotten this far, it should be very do-able.

Yeah, solved it already made 4 copies of level 52, and than some sheneningans. 202 tiles, best is 27 :D

54 is a breeeze!
And can be done in much less than my messy 22 tiles. :D

Ha, 166 and 21!  I'm winning!

Seriously though, I'm so stuck on 59.  Also, the best scores from some of those levels make my head hurt.  Even on earlier levels, like #31 (Stop Red).  How the heck do you do that with 8?  Where is that little optimization?  I can't get it done without 9.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 11, 2013, 03:01:55 am
I've just done 56 (Storage) with 465 :D
No Idea how to do 57 (Recursion) as you can't actually use recursion.. (i think? when I try, state just resets).
It needs to work for infinite number of balls, too, right?


I got 9 on stop red too.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 11, 2013, 03:19:11 am
No Idea how to do 57 (Recursion) as you can't actually use recursion.. (i think? when I try, state just resets).
It needs to work for infinite number of balls, too, right?
Infinite recursion is detected and causes a reset. But of course it wouldn't work anyway. Proper recursion does work. The idea is that it should in theory work for any number of balls, yes. Unfortunately I can't actually test that inside the game. But I will not accept high scores that don't work for any number of balls, even if they pass the test in the game.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: timchen on April 11, 2013, 03:48:09 am
I've just done 56 (Storage) with 465 :D
No Idea how to do 57 (Recursion) as you can't actually use recursion.. (i think? when I try, state just resets).
It needs to work for infinite number of balls, too, right?


I got 9 on stop red too.
The 8 optimization in #31 is the same as how you get from 6 to 4 in #17.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 11, 2013, 04:15:17 am
I've just done 56 (Storage) with 465 :D
No Idea how to do 57 (Recursion) as you can't actually use recursion.. (i think? when I try, state just resets).
It needs to work for infinite number of balls, too, right?


I got 9 on stop red too.
The 8 optimization in #31 is the same as how you get from 6 to 4 in #17.

Derp. After reading that, instant high score.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 11, 2013, 04:17:58 am
I only managed to get from 6 to 5 in #17 :D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 11, 2013, 04:33:17 am
I did 53 in 72 tiles, it was about as hard as I imagined using custom tiles.
54 does indeed look easy compared to the ones that have just gone.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 11, 2013, 04:53:04 am
I did 53 in 72 tiles, it was about as hard as I imagined using custom tiles.
54 does indeed look easy compared to the ones that have just gone.

I have done it in 209. Mostly cuz I have 2 general custom tiles, both copied 4 times with slight changes for each color. Sigh.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 11, 2013, 05:21:22 am
Mind showing me your solution? I can PM you mine if you want.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 11, 2013, 09:45:01 am
Mind showing me your solution? I can PM you mine if you want.

Sure, send away.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 11, 2013, 12:53:04 pm
I'd also love to see some machines other people built. Especially if you consider them beautiful, funny, or somehow interesting.

I don't want to spoil any complex problems for anyone, but here are a few that won't do too much damage I think.

And two more that actually may do damage, so don't read it if you don't want anything spoiled.

Memory (lvl 50) is actually a real level and the solution I'm posting here is pretty good, only one tile too much for 3 stars.
But it's so nice, much prettier and completely different from my 14-tile solution that I'm posting it anyway. (http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,memory,%5B0,15:31K32D33834F35H36L41743246851L52C53854F55G56K%5D)

And for those who do hunt stars among us:
This is a 6-tile solution to Ups & Downs. (http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,upsDowns,%5B1,6:331343438533540554%5D)
However, it's really close to a 3-star solution. In fact, you can just replace two tiles by one other one.
Which will lead to a very useful trick on many other levels for optimizations.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 01:05:16 pm
I'm too lazy to go make nice links, so if you are curious you can copy+paste.

This is my solution to Storage:

http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,queue1,[0,main:22723724725726132H33G34J35I41B42a243a244a245a246052D53C54F55E617629639649659],[2,switch:13014A18L24L25226445048753B56K732740835]

The main solution is really neat and ordered, I think.  It's not optimal because my switch is not optimal, though even fixing that might not bring it down enough.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 11, 2013, 01:45:29 pm
I got sick of Stef beating my high scores. So let's see him beat this: http://tinyurl.com/cgdnuxh

Also if you replace one tile you get an infinite but entertaining design: http://tinyurl.com/ctnk7e6
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 03:02:37 pm
I got sick of Stef beating my high scores. So let's see him beat this: http://tinyurl.com/cgdnuxh

Also if you replace one tile you get an infinite but entertaining design: http://tinyurl.com/ctnk7e6

In the solution, you technically don't need that second arrow, do you?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 11, 2013, 03:08:04 pm
I got sick of Stef beating my high scores. So let's see him beat this: http://tinyurl.com/cgdnuxh

Also if you replace one tile you get an infinite but entertaining design: http://tinyurl.com/ctnk7e6

In the solution, you technically don't need that second arrow, do you?

I don't need most of those tiles. That's sort of the point.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 03:38:45 pm
I got sick of Stef beating my high scores. So let's see him beat this: http://tinyurl.com/cgdnuxh

Also if you replace one tile you get an infinite but entertaining design: http://tinyurl.com/ctnk7e6

In the solution, you technically don't need that second arrow, do you?

I don't need most of those tiles. That's sort of the point.

I mean, it doesn't serve a function?  All the other tiles are "necessary" and they all get hit.  If you removed a tile, the solution shouldn't work anymore, right?  But that final arrow could be removed and the solution would still work, right?  I mean, I could just fill a space with a bunch of tiles that never get used...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 11, 2013, 03:50:30 pm
Well, it's fairly trivial to make it "necessary". For example, We can change a couple tiles to make the top ball do the bottom ball path before leaving. http://tinyurl.com/bpgegsy

EDIT: wait that makes the up arrow near the exit removable. Try this one instead. Though it loses a little symmetry. http://tinyurl.com/c4fl7wk
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 03:51:45 pm
Well, it's fairly trivial to make it "necessary". For example, We can change a couple tiles to make the top ball do the bottom ball path before leaving. http://tinyurl.com/bpgegsy

Touche. :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 11, 2013, 04:22:31 pm
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 04:24:40 pm
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....

I know how you feel.  My best for 48 is 11 tiles, but the high score is 6!  And it actually matters quite a bit to me, because I use that solution as a custom tile in many subsequent solutions.

What is your second 4 tile solution to 47?  The one I have uses spinner, alternating spinner and two arrows, one of which could be a spinner or a diagonal just to get the ball moving up..
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: DStu on April 11, 2013, 04:38:05 pm
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....

I know how you feel.  My best for 48 is 11 tiles, but the high score is 6!  And it actually matters quite a bit to me, because I use that solution as a custom tile in many subsequent solutions.

What is your second 4 tile solution to 47?  The one I have uses spinner, alternating spinner and two arrows, one of which could be a spinner or a diagonal just to get the ball moving up..
yeah, that's one of them. The other one is spinner one below the middle with arrow below it, and arrow + diagonal at entrance
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 04:47:08 pm
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....

I know how you feel.  My best for 48 is 11 tiles, but the high score is 6!  And it actually matters quite a bit to me, because I use that solution as a custom tile in many subsequent solutions.

What is your second 4 tile solution to 47?  The one I have uses spinner, alternating spinner and two arrows, one of which could be a spinner or a diagonal just to get the ball moving up..
yeah, that's one of them. The other one is spinner one below the middle with arrow below it, and arrow + diagonal at entrance

No alternator?  Or no fixed spinner?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 11, 2013, 04:49:57 pm
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....

I know how you feel.  My best for 48 is 11 tiles, but the high score is 6!  And it actually matters quite a bit to me, because I use that solution as a custom tile in many subsequent solutions.

What is your second 4 tile solution to 47?  The one I have uses spinner, alternating spinner and two arrows, one of which could be a spinner or a diagonal just to get the ball moving up..
yeah, that's one of them. The other one is spinner one below the middle with arrow below it, and arrow + diagonal at entrance

No alternator?  Or no fixed spinner?

He means this . (http://tinyurl.com/bum77zg)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 04:55:15 pm
Yeah that's what I thought.

I'm not sure if this helps... hm.  My trouble with the reset is that two consecutive up balls should not reset the reset.  Most of my extra tiles are for preventing that case.  Hm.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 11, 2013, 05:02:29 pm
Yeah that's what I thought.

I'm not sure if this helps... hm.  My trouble with the reset is that two consecutive up balls should not reset the reset.  Most of my extra tiles are for preventing that case.  Hm.

Well I dont want to give it away. But I will say the 3 star solution I got is a slight variant of the design I just linked. For an extra hint it uses 2 alternators.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 11, 2013, 05:04:45 pm
Yeah that's what I thought.

I'm not sure if this helps... hm.  My trouble with the reset is that two consecutive up balls should not reset the reset.  Most of my extra tiles are for preventing that case.  Hm.

Well I dont want to give it away. But I will say the 3 star solution I got is a slight variant of the design I just linked. For an extra hint it uses 2 alternators.

My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 11, 2013, 05:30:59 pm
My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!

Why does it have to?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 11, 2013, 05:43:27 pm
I'm too lazy to go make nice links, so if you are curious you can copy+paste.

This is my solution to Storage:

http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,queue1,[0,main:22723724725726132H33G34J35I41B42a243a244a245a246052D53C54F55E617629639649659],[2,switch:13014A18L24L25226445048753B56K732740835]

The main solution is really neat and ordered, I think.  It's not optimal because my switch is not optimal, though even fixing that might not bring it down enough.

Your main is better then you think. I had exactly this before getting my last improvement from 28 to 27, but that's just a silly tiny reordering. Your sub-machine is - as you say - not very optimal. Although using reset-init here as a submachine will do the trick, that is in fact too powerful. You need less functionality (no need to be able to reset an already reset machine) and thus can use a much simpler solution. I just tried replacing your custom tile by a 4-tile machine and it still worked.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 11, 2013, 05:55:25 pm
I got sick of Stef beating my high scores. So let's see him beat this: http://tinyurl.com/cgdnuxh

Also if you replace one tile you get an infinite but entertaining design: http://tinyurl.com/ctnk7e6

No (http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,double,%5B0,new:20K23625K26727L30531L33635537640542L43645547650553L55556457K%5D), I can't beat that.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 12, 2013, 02:00:09 am
My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!

Why does it have to?

Because otherwise how do I stop a second reset from unresetting it?  :o

I'm too lazy to go make nice links, so if you are curious you can copy+paste.

This is my solution to Storage:

http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,queue1,[0,main:22723724725726132H33G34J35I41B42a243a244a245a246052D53C54F55E617629639649659],[2,switch:13014A18L24L25226445048753B56K732740835]

The main solution is really neat and ordered, I think.  It's not optimal because my switch is not optimal, though even fixing that might not bring it down enough.

Your main is better then you think. I had exactly this before getting my last improvement from 28 to 27, but that's just a silly tiny reordering. Your sub-machine is - as you say - not very optimal. Although using reset-init here as a submachine will do the trick, that is in fact too powerful. You need less functionality (no need to be able to reset an already reset machine) and thus can use a much simpler solution. I just tried replacing your custom tile by a 4-tile machine and it still worked.

Ahhhhhh, I see.  Thanks, got the 28.  Will try to figure out the 27 later.  I have an idea.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 12, 2013, 03:32:05 pm
My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!

Why does it have to?

Because otherwise how do I stop a second reset from unresetting it?  :o

I'm not sure what to say to that other than that I have a solution (though not minimal) with only alternator.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 12, 2013, 04:04:14 pm
My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!

Why does it have to?

Because otherwise how do I stop a second reset from unresetting it?  :o

I'm not sure what to say to that other than that I have a solution (though not minimal) with only alternator.

My mind is blown.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 13, 2013, 10:19:30 am
It's time to really blow your mind :)

The world David created is much more then the 60 levels that are currently supported. However, I think the concept of levels & stars only goes up to a certain point, because then machines get so big it starts being very un-fun to try to minimize them. But still fun to build them and use them as building blocks for even more complicated machines. What follows here is the most complicated machine I built so far, a "memory unit". This machine also convinced me that eventually every computable function can be solved in this world.

It uses building blocks itself that are actually levels, and I replaced them by some of my older / less efficient implementations just not to spoil levels for others.
Since the language this machine is written in isn't very readable (mild understatement), and I can't add comments inside, I'll try to explain it here in English. Probably quite a long/tough read to get though.

First of all, here (http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,%5B13,TreeMem:44a7%5D,%5B7,Tree%20Node:02633K36a738L41a044146a748751L52053a854K62L66aG68K%5D,%5B0,State%20Machine:13K14615L21K25a628L30632640041a842043aH48752554461L64a468570L72a578K82L83784685K%5D,%5B16,List%20Store:32K34435443146aG47153B55a962763364a965766a367572L74K%5D,%5B8,direct%204:15K18123K25aC32K35B42B43aC46947948956E57F63L64aC65A66G68B75177H78986L877880%5D,%5B6,State%20Value:24G33K34843a9446%5D,%5B17,State%20Ready:14515L24J25I33K34944a945946753054A55I56K%5D,%5B4,State%20Write:23K24K33G43a944L%5D,%5B5,State%20Address:04505L14G15H24F25E34B35K448%5D,%5B9,BR%2FY/-/G:34E44A45D46754955C56K64F%5D,%5B3,Bit:31K32D33834F35H36L41743346851L52C53854F55G56K%5D,%5B12,direct%202:11113914315L23C25D33734941942I435454%5D) is the machine I'm talking about.

TreeMem, the main component, understands two kind of input instructions:
<address>Yellow<value>Yellow                 writes <value> on <address>
<address>Greenread <address>
Both <value> and <address> are sequences of blue & red of any length.
Tree Mem consists of a single Tree Node, the root of the tree.

Tree Node has several sub components:
State Machine, which is complicated.
List Store, used to store the value at this node.
Two copies of Tree Node, one to store everything at current-address+blue and one for current-address+red.
direct4, which is used to direct balls that come out of the State Machine to either the list store or one of the sub-nodes.
(the fourth direction is never used, but it was easier to re-use an old component then to create a direct3)
State Machine can output balls to the right to determine where data is going, and output actual data on the bottom.

State Machine has another direct4 inside, because it can be in one of 4 states.
When a ball comes in from the left, it's passed onto the current state.
Whenever any state outputs a ball up, this changes the state of the state machine
Whenever any state outputs a ball right, this comes out of the right side of the state machine, thus determining where the data is going
Whenever any state outputs a ball down, this comes out of the down side of the state machine, thus it is considered data.

direct4 is also known as level 53. A ball from the right determines where balls from the left are going. blue=right, red=up, yellow=left, green=down.
This one contains 3 instances of direct2, uses 9 tiles more then necessary and isn't very pretty. But hey, it works.

List Store can remember a sequence of red/blue balls. A green ball reads, a yellow ball resets. It uses a lot more tiles then 'List', but that's because you can read this one multiple times without destroying the data.

State Ready (blue) represents the default state.
When a green ball comes in, we should read (green down) our local (yellow right) value. Then we're ready again.
When a yellow ball comes in, we should reset (yellow down) our local (yellow right) value. Then we start writing (green up)
When a red/blue ball comes in, we should pass subsequent balls to the correct sub-node (red/blue right). Apparently we're now parsing an address (yellow up).

State Write (green) implies we're writing to our local List Store.
When a blue/red ball comes in, we pass it as data.
When a yellow ball comes in, we're done writing and go back to ready state (blue up)

State Address (yellow) means we're currently parsing an address.
Whatever ball comes in, our already selected sub-node should hear about it (pass it down).
A green ball means we're done and should return to ready state (blue up)
A yellow ball means we're now going to receive a value (red up)

State Value (red)
blue/red/yellow balls should be passed to our sub-node (pass it down)
A yellow ball means we're done and should return to ready state (blue up)

Bit is known as lvl 50 (Memory) and can store one bit of information (red/blue). A green ball reads without destroying the value.

BR/Y/-/G is just some convenience component I use to split up colors.

direct2 is used to build direct4 and does half the work.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 13, 2013, 10:52:44 am
I've two 4 tile solutions for 47 (init), and one of them almost solves 48 (reset init), but best I can do for 48 is 18 tiles....

I know how you feel.  My best for 48 is 11 tiles, but the high score is 6!  And it actually matters quite a bit to me, because I use that solution as a custom tile in many subsequent solutions.

What is your second 4 tile solution to 47?  The one I have uses spinner, alternating spinner and two arrows, one of which could be a spinner or a diagonal just to get the ball moving up..

I have a yet another 4-tile solution
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,init,[39,Extra%20one:443488543585]

My current inefficient solution for the reset uses two as well, and I know it has to... hm.  Gotta take a break.  Thanks!

Why does it have to?

Because otherwise how do I stop a second reset from unresetting it?  :o

I'm not sure what to say to that other than that I have a solution (though not minimal) with only alternator.

My mind is blown.

I just checked, I also used 1 alternator (and 18 tiles total). Second reset problem is easily solved :P
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 13, 2013, 11:19:51 am
It's time to really blow your mind :)

Alright, here's my prime number generator. http://goo.gl/t6qfS
It contains Init Reset in 6 tiles so don't look at that custom tile if you want to solve it yourself.
The input is an endless stream of balls from the left. For each ball from the left one comes out on the right. The first output says whether 2 is a prime number, the second output says whether 3 is a prime number, then 4, 5, 6, etc.
Blue means prime, red means not prime.
I personally think it's not too bad to read. See if you can figure out how it works.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 13, 2013, 12:42:51 pm
Almost done with 58 (and for a change, got a clean-y solution). But, why is it called "List" and not "Buffer" ?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 13, 2013, 12:58:59 pm
I didn't give it too much thought. Buffer sounds fine as well.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 13, 2013, 01:48:31 pm
It's time to really blow your mind :)

Alright, here's my prime number generator. http://goo.gl/t6qfS
It contains Init Reset in 6 tiles so don't look at that custom tile if you want to solve it yourself.
The input is an endless stream of balls from the left. For each ball from the left one comes out on the right. The first output says whether 2 is a prime number, the second output says whether 3 is a prime number, then 4, 5, 6, etc.
Blue means prime, red means not prime.
I personally think it's not too bad to read. See if you can figure out how it works.

Temptation!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: GendoIkari on April 13, 2013, 03:29:53 pm
Minor bug, dunno if it's been mentioned here yet. After loading the game a second time, the level selector window doesn't show the star in the previous levels until after you click to go to each level. Not sure if the star means "complete" or "got 3 stars."
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 13, 2013, 03:35:56 pm
I don't see what you mean. Which browser? I should mention that I only ever test on Google Chrome.

The color of the star indicates how many stars you got for that level.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: GendoIkari on April 14, 2013, 11:14:49 pm
I don't see what you mean. Which browser? I should mention that I only ever test on Google Chrome.

The color of the star indicates how many stars you got for that level.

Chrome. Basically, when I re-entered the game, I didn't see any stars on any of the levels in the level list. After I clicked a level to go back to it, it would have a star.

*Edit* Just opened it up on another computer, loading my saved game from Google... didn't see the issue. I could have just been mistaken...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 15, 2013, 11:14:00 am
a new level was added yesterday!  :)

binary counting.... sure feels like a program counter.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Grujah on April 15, 2013, 01:31:39 pm
58 was surprisingly easy. 59 I have not started yet, but I have few ideas.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 16, 2013, 01:55:38 am
I am hooked.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 16, 2013, 12:08:43 pm
The customizable tiles are killing me.  How do I move from editing a custom tile, to actually placing it in the field to make a main program with sub-routines?

I can't ever seem to unselect the custom tiles, so I end up with crazy recursion going on.

Do I have to make a custom tile that is simply the shell that executes all the smaller programs?  How the heck does this affect the "number of tiles" that I've used?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 16, 2013, 12:15:37 pm
Do I have to make a custom tile that is simply the shell that executes all the smaller programs?  How the heck does this affect the "number of tiles" that I've used?

Yes. Have one main program and use the other custom tiles as functions that get 'called'.

How the heck does this affect the "number of tiles" that I've used?

Placing n copies of a custom tiles with m tiles in it will count as n+m tiles used.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 16, 2013, 12:34:02 pm
How the heck does this affect the "number of tiles" that I've used?

Placing n copies of a custom tiles with m tiles in it will count as n+m tiles used.

When you execute your solution, it will count the number of tiles in the "main" tile and also add the number of tiles in any custom tile used therein.  It will only count it once, which means you can be more efficient with tile count if you have a large component that needs repeating.

Also a nice effect is that you can keep custom tiles that don't get used in the main solution and it won't unfairly bloat your score.  This is nice when you are trying to make a different solution which is just not quite there yet.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 16, 2013, 12:57:36 pm
I keep accidentally deleting these things; I guess I just need to be more careful with everything.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 17, 2013, 01:00:35 am
I found the 6 tile solution to 48! :D
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: AHoppy on April 17, 2013, 12:58:21 pm
I found the 6 tile solution to 48! :D
:( I'm straight up stuck on 48... do you use the 4 tile solution to 47?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 17, 2013, 01:22:56 pm
I found the 6 tile solution to 48! :D
:( I'm straight up stuck on 48... do you use the 4 tile solution to 47?

There are a number of 4-tile solutions to 47 that all work on the same principal. Any should work as a starting point for 48, but some will be more efficient I think. My first solution for 48 had like 20 tiles and balls moving all over the place.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 18, 2013, 12:08:58 pm
ahhhhhh!!!1 rawrrrr!!! I just got with three stars the puzzle that makes 1 turn into 37.  I've been playing with that one for ages, and got stuck at 17 tiles.  A new idea gave me 16 tiles, with an obvious optimization to 14 tiles.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: jonts26 on April 18, 2013, 12:47:03 pm
I rather like my solution for that puzzle so I'm curious if others took the same approach. Not much of a spoiler but I used custom tiles which were variations of the level 18 (triple) solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 18, 2013, 03:21:13 pm
ahhhhhh!!!1 rawrrrr!!! I just got with three stars the puzzle that makes 1 turn into 37.  I've been playing with that one for ages, and got stuck at 17 tiles.  A new idea gave me 16 tiles, with an obvious optimization to 14 tiles.

Oh gosh. Am I sorry to say this. But this discussion made me look back at my solution for this level, and thought hey, wait a second, can't I get rid of that tile right there...
So I now have a 13 tile solution for 4 stars and we'll both lose a star pretty soon.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 18, 2013, 03:24:39 pm
ahhhhhh!!!1 rawrrrr!!! I just got with three stars the puzzle that makes 1 turn into 37.  I've been playing with that one for ages, and got stuck at 17 tiles.  A new idea gave me 16 tiles, with an obvious optimization to 14 tiles.

Oh gosh. Am I sorry to say this. But this discussion made me look back at my solution for this level, and thought hey, wait a second, can't I get rid of that tile right there...
So I now have a 13 tile solution for 4 stars and we'll both lose a star pretty soon.

Oops. That didn't last either. I just found a 12 tile solution!  :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: eHalcyon on April 18, 2013, 05:58:26 pm
19 tiles for that one :(
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 18, 2013, 09:14:04 pm
ahhhhhh!!!1 rawrrrr!!! I just got with three stars the puzzle that makes 1 turn into 37.  I've been playing with that one for ages, and got stuck at 17 tiles.  A new idea gave me 16 tiles, with an obvious optimization to 14 tiles.

Oh gosh. Am I sorry to say this. But this discussion made me look back at my solution for this level, and thought hey, wait a second, can't I get rid of that tile right there...
So I now have a 13 tile solution for 4 stars and we'll both lose a star pretty soon.

This is good; I was wondering just today if there shouldn't be some thing available, like when somebody reaches something like 165+ stars or so, a database of "current bests" (and there may be multiple methods for a single level) is available.  This way people can use others' tweaks and ideas in combination and make things even better.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 22, 2013, 04:29:22 pm
Hey a friend of mine just beat the highscore for #26.  Shall I PM you her solution, David?  Her name is Mckenzie.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 22, 2013, 04:31:25 pm
Cool! Sure, and let me know what she would like to be called so I can mention her here: http://xorballs.dskl.net/scores.html
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: AHoppy on April 22, 2013, 09:14:22 pm
I found the 6 tile solution to 48! :D
:( I'm straight up stuck on 48... do you use the 4 tile solution to 47?

There are a number of 4-tile solutions to 47 that all work on the same principal. Any should work as a starting point for 48, but some will be more efficient I think. My first solution for 48 had like 20 tiles and balls moving all over the place.

I finally got it :) 25 tiles and balls going all over the place...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 23, 2013, 06:45:57 am
Hey a friend of mine just beat the highscore for #26.  Shall I PM you her solution, David?  Her name is Mckenzie.

Nice!

For now, I'm clueless. Over the past two weeks some other solutions were improved, but that was only 1 tile on levels I didn't really try to hammer down, and I found them reasonably quickly afterwards. This one however I already tried to improve many many times in the past. That got me lots of 16-tile solutions and a very few 15-tiles. And now I'm looking for 10... eek.

I'm afraid it will take a long time. *sniff*, only 2 stars for now. I like this feeling. And I don't. Well, I guess I do.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 23, 2013, 09:44:54 am
I understand exactly.  The excitement of knowing something is just beyond the corner, mixed with the utter frustration of not knowing how to walk around that corner.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 23, 2013, 02:19:49 pm
Whoa, I love #32. 

I was stuck up at 27 tiles for a long time.  Then I tried a totally new method, and got down to 18, and instantly pushed it down to 14 tiles.  I love it when you remove 13 tiles in one fell swoop.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 25, 2013, 07:25:56 am
Hey a friend of mine just beat the highscore for #26.  Shall I PM you her solution, David?  Her name is Mckenzie.

Nice!

For now, I'm clueless. Over the past two weeks some other solutions were improved, but that was only 1 tile on levels I didn't really try to hammer down, and I found them reasonably quickly afterwards. This one however I already tried to improve many many times in the past. That got me lots of 16-tile solutions and a very few 15-tiles. And now I'm looking for 10... eek.

I'm afraid it will take a long time. *sniff*, only 2 stars for now. I like this feeling. And I don't. Well, I guess I do.
Ahhh... got it. Amazing how I can't get below 15 for several months, and then a few days after you find 10 I find it as well.
Apparently this guarantee that it's possible really helps. I tried faking it but that doesn't work.

ahhhhhh!!!1 rawrrrr!!! I just got with three stars the puzzle that makes 1 turn into 37.  I've been playing with that one for ages, and got stuck at 17 tiles.  A new idea gave me 16 tiles, with an obvious optimization to 14 tiles.

Oh gosh. Am I sorry to say this. But this discussion made me look back at my solution for this level, and thought hey, wait a second, can't I get rid of that tile right there...
So I now have a 13 tile solution for 4 stars and we'll both lose a star pretty soon.

This is good; I was wondering just today if there shouldn't be some thing available, like when somebody reaches something like 165+ stars or so, a database of "current bests" (and there may be multiple methods for a single level) is available.  This way people can use others' tweaks and ideas in combination and make things even better.
I don't think so... making it too easy to get a list of all the current bests probably spoils more then it helps. However, if there's a specific problem you want to get my solution for in order to improve upon... feel free to ask in a PM. In the past combining Davids solutions with my own has indeed lead to better ones.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 25, 2013, 09:52:59 am
Yeah, there is the other argument of course, the same reason that it took you only this long to get to 10 tiles on #26.  Once you know it's possible, it becomes easier to push towards it.  Can seem a bit daunting when there's the possibility that you're already at the optimal place and you're just wasting time.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 25, 2013, 02:22:20 pm
Apparently this guarantee that it's possible really helps. I tried faking it but that doesn't work.

Maybe we can help. :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: Tables on April 25, 2013, 02:26:26 pm
Apparently this guarantee that it's possible really helps. I tried faking it but that doesn't work.

Maybe we can help. :)

Has anyone else managed the solution to level 0 in -1 tiles, or is it just me?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 26, 2013, 01:25:23 pm
Oh wow.  I just got the 3-star solution to #20.  Now my head explodes with the possibilities.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 26, 2013, 01:36:57 pm
Your solution is interesting. My 3-star solution doesn't use that technique but otherwise looks very similar.
Hope you understood that, trying not to give too much away :). PM me if you want to see my solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: shraeye on April 26, 2013, 03:02:42 pm
Your solution is interesting. My 3-star solution doesn't use that technique but otherwise looks very similar.
Hope you understood that, trying not to give too much away :). PM me if you want to see my solution.
Stef just showed me something that looks pretty similar, just embedded a different way.  Is your's similar to Stef's "alternate" solution?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 26, 2013, 03:49:24 pm
I'm not sure which alternate solution you mean. But Stef knows my solution.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on April 27, 2013, 06:23:10 am
Funny, it happened again. I heard McKenzie beat my lvl 55 (Storage 1) solution with a 23-tile solution (was 26), and less then an hour after that I found it too.
And this was exactly the level I tried to improve upon for the last week!

Ok now I'm going to use this improvement to beat my own score for the next level (Storage) :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on April 27, 2013, 06:44:20 am
And again the independent solutions are very very similiar.
Are you Mckenzie? ;)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: mcdizzle on April 28, 2013, 11:56:24 am
Oh, don't worry David, we are distinct.  :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: mcdizzle on May 07, 2013, 05:01:10 pm
I'm quite please that I finally wrapped my brain about what to do for #60...only 132 tiles.
How in the world Stef got it down to 26 or whatever is beyond me.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: -Stef- on May 08, 2013, 06:26:46 am
Congrats on solving it. And don't worry, I started out with a really long and tedious solution for 'binary' too. Probably not 132, but something around 70 if I remember correctly.
Try taking some distance. Getting a fresh look on a problem like this can really remove a ton of tiles. My first solutions all included some version of list and/or stack but eventually I let that all go.

I wrote down the numbers on a paper and just stared at them for a while...
Code: [Select]
   1
  10
  11
 100
 101
 110
 111
1000
... and then I realized what was happening in every column. I won't give hints unless you ask for it, but my first implementation of the new idea was 33 tiles and after that 7 more got removed by some local optimizations / better use of subtiles.


Funny, it happened again. I heard McKenzie beat my lvl 55 (Storage 1) solution with a 23-tile solution (was 26), and less then an hour after that I found it too.
And this was exactly the level I tried to improve upon for the last week!
Ok now I'm going to use this improvement to beat my own score for the next level (Storage) :)

The idea of 'leaving through the front door' was not just once but actually twice applicable to my 'Storage' solution. It helped improving it from 48 to 40 :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 10, 2014, 04:34:44 pm
So, sorry for necroing an old topic, but I randomly decided to play this again.  When Stef first mentioned it here, I almost beat it but stopped playing.  I beat it this time and wanted more...

So I built a Turing Machine.

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,[76,new:44bA],[72,Turing%20Machine:02704613614bF15716623725530633734bP40041bC42bB43A45bD46450553bH54B55461766572774bQ765837845],[75,Color%20Memory:12614415430634H35G40044aV45050I54J555807827846],[74,Write%20Test:01706611B14620721022423624A25630633C34D35F400413425434444454467817846],[73,Color%20Split:34C36737C38644A46A47F48754D56757D585],[77,Tape:00604405415J21722630731aG32bI34641bG42bJ43644bF45A47648751553A55756bD57463764bO67572774bN75976bM78580581I84887bK884],[79,Turing-1:00603904806610C11713D14716F17720721aG22623724aG25526727aG28631B34937540L43B46B479515534546574635644705784827846],[87,Turing-2:24526442D44745aG46565567484B875],[88,Mini-Tape:31734640G41543644bF457537555],[31,Color%20Memory%20Direction:03704105414718622724aW26430634735540042aP46A48050554458562764aX664],[16,init%20reset:217241254306337340354400443455487537540554635648677685815844],[78,Tape-1:44B480585],[80,Tape-2:04C40B41E44648750751C585],[81,Tape-3:43C44B54E],[82,Tape-4%20%28Delay%29:00704510918422723724725726727631732aG33aG34aG35aG36aG38B40bL41242843B44B45B46B481517577585705724],[84,Tape-5:116174217221262286306325357360400419426437447463475489527535557561584805864],[85,Tape-6:045084481585],[86,Tape-7:40G],[32,BR%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435645046348866aT67D68476aU846864],[25,Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435636aS37D38945046348856aT57E58B66aT67F68476aU846864],[33,YG%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27E28435645046348866aT67F68476aU846864],[83,Tape-4-1:037040086487],[30,53-3:03704005443544B456837840854],[28,53-1:486837840884],[29,53-2:037041084485]
[EDIT: I accidentally misunderstood the definition of a Turing Machine and didn't make the head have states.  So, this is only a tape head.  Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7739.msg343447#msg343447) is a better machine with states.]

Input is from the left, output to the left (in case you wanted to add commands, they're both in the same area to make it easier.  If you don't like it, you can change it.).  Each cell of the tape can have four states, one for each color (they default as blue).  Inputting a green ball reads the current state, inputting a yellow ball will make the next inputted ball write the current state (so inputting yellow then green will make the current cell green), blue moves the tape left, and red moves the tape right.

Just so you know, when programming, my code is really kludgy.  And it's the same thing here.  I use the earlier solutions to two levels, both of which are very complex.  And the Turing Machine itself is very complicated as well.  I don't even really remember what everything does (I know how it works, but not each individual tile), even though I made it all today.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 10, 2014, 04:41:00 pm
This is awesome! Something like this was supposed to be the last level but I never go to it (and lost a bit of interest when usage declined...)

I'm looking forward to trying and studying it (I haven't yet) but may not have time immediately. But assuming it's really a Turing machine you've built: congratulations for finishing the game!
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 10, 2014, 04:44:05 pm
This is awesome! Something like this was supposed to be the last level but I never go to it (and lost a bit of interest when usage declined...)

I'm looking forward to trying and studying it (I haven't yet) but may not have time immediately. But assuming it's really a Turing machine you've built: congratulations for finishing the game!

I was looking on the wikipedia page and it says that instructions are supposed to be a part of it.  There's no instructions, but you certainly could make them.  I was just pretty excited when I had managed to make it.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 10, 2014, 04:46:54 pm
Also, it's funny, when I first heard of a Turing Machine, I thought, "Moving an infinite tape?  That makes no sense!  Why not just move the head!"  And, when I make one, the tape moves and the head stays stationary...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 10, 2014, 07:41:08 pm
Looking more into the definitions and such, I now don't know if it is one or not...  Could someone who would be able to tell figure out?

(edit, if it isn't, I think it would be pretty easy to turn it into one)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 01:14:09 am
I figured out one thing I didn't make.  I didn't make the head have a state...  Here's the last one but with states:

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,[109,new:44bE],[76,Turing%20Machine:02707615618425726bD27436738B44bA46648bk66767bj685725774],[72,Almost%20Turing%20Machine:02704613614bF15716623725530633734bP40041bC42bB43A45bD46450553bH54B55461766572774bQ765837845],[75,Color%20Memory:12614415430634H35G40044aV45050I54J555807827846],[107,State%20Write%20Test:11714620721022424F306400413425448817846],[108,Turing%20Machine-1:037040086480585],[77,Tape:00604405415J21722630731aG32bI34641bG42bJ43644bF45A47648751553A55756bD57463764bO67572774bN75976bM78580581I84887bK884],[87,Turing-2:24526442D44745aG46565567484B875],[74,Write%20Test:01706611B14620721022423624A25630633C34D35F400413425434444454467817846],[73,Color%20Split:34C36737C38644A46A47F48754D56757D585],[79,Turing-1:00603904806610C11713D14716F17720721aG22623724aG25526727aG28631B34937540L43B46B479515534546574635644705784827846],[88,Mini-Tape:31734640G41543644bF457537555],[31,Color%20Memory%20Direction:03704105414718622724aW26430634735540042aP46A48050554458562764aX664],[16,init%20reset:217241254306337340354400443455487537540554635648677685815844],[80,Tape-2:04C40B41E44648750751C585],[78,Tape-1:44B480585],[81,Tape-3:43C44B54E],[86,Tape-7:40G],[85,Tape-6:045084481585],[84,Tape-5:116174217221262286306325357360400419426437447463475489527535557561584805864],[82,Tape-4%20%28Delay%29:00704510918422723724725726727631732aG33aG34aG35aG36aG38B40bL41242843B44B45B46B481517577585705724],[32,BR%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435645046348866aT67D68476aU846864],[25,Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435636aS37D38945046348856aT57E58B66aT67F68476aU846864],[33,YG%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27E28435645046348866aT67F68476aU846864],[83,Tape-4-1:037040086487],[30,53-3:03704005443544B456837840854],[28,53-1:486837840884],[29,53-2:037041084485]
States are manipulated through the right side while all of the previous stuff works on the left.  Green and yellow work the same on the right side, but it changes the state of the head instead (blue and red, because of how I made it work, work like yellow if you wanted to know for some reasons).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 04:38:04 am
Alright.  Last one (quintuple posts ftw!).  I made one with rules (and a default rule that is somewhat interesting).  Input from the left checks the tape and state and makes a new tape, state, and moves the tape (according to customizable rules).  It also outputs a bunch of balls which is how many times you have done this.  Input from the top outputs the current cell, and input from the bottom outputs the current state.

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,[135,new:44cA],[134,Final:31732aq37641944c9477],[133,Color%20Fixer:03704005414J33534035444bl53754055674J837840854],[52,Recursion:32733737642aG43944aq477],[109,Turing%20with%20Rules:13618433635640J41B43044c845046747bm485517555574637665],[16,init%20reset:217241254306337340354400443455487537540554635648677685815844],[110,Interpreter:13717bt18622726by28631734641342143aV44148751752564765bn68573774c3785846854864874],[132,Mini%20Turing%20Machine:02603604B10612114015621722bh24025432533K34435736638640143044bE45048150551553454657465566767bh685837841859875],[31,Color%20Memory%20Direction:03704105414718622724aW26430634735540042aP46A48050554458562764aX664],[111,0-%3F:30731C35bp38640A41D44bq48750951E53br58560761F62bs685727737746754],[117,1-%3F:30731C35bu38640A41D44bv48750951E53bw58560761F62bx685727737746754],[122,2-%3F:30731C35bz38640A41D44c048750951E53c158560761F62c2685727737746754],[127,3-%3F:30731C35c438640A41D44c548750951E53c658560761F62c7685727737746754],[76,Turing%20Machine:02707615618425726bD27436738B44bA46648bk66767bj685725774],[105,init%20reset%20copy:217241254306337340354400442455487537540554635648677685815844],[32,BR%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435645046348866aT67D68476aU846864],[25,Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435636aS37D38945046348856aT57E58B66aT67F68476aU846864],[33,YG%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27E28435645046348866aT67F68476aU846864],[113,0-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[114,0-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73J74I837846],[115,0-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[116,0-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[118,1-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[119,1-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73G74I837846],[120,1-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[121,1-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73G74I837846],[123,2-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[124,2-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[125,2-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[126,2-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73G74I837846],[128,3-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[129,3-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73I74I837846],[130,3-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[131,3-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73I74I837846],[75,Color%20Memory:12614415430634H35G40044aV45050I54J555807827846],[72,Almost%20Turing%20Machine:02704613614bF15716623725530633734bP40041bC42bB43A45bD46450553bH54B55461766572774bQ765837845],[108,Turing%20Machine-1:037040086480585],[107,State%20Write%20Test:11714620721022424F306400413425448817846],[30,53-3:03704005443544B456837840854],[28,53-1:486837840884],[29,53-2:037041084485],[77,Tape:00604405415J21722630731aG32bI34641bG42bJ43644bF45A47648751553A55756bD57463764bO67572774bN75976bM78580581I84887bK884],[87,Turing-2:24526442D44745aG46565567484B875],[74,Write%20Test:01706611B14620721022423624A25630633C34D35F400413425434444454467817846],[73,Color%20Split:34C36737C38644A46A47F48754D56757D585],[79,Turing-1:00603904806610C11713D14716F17720721aG22623724aG25526727aG28631B34937540L43B46B479515534546574635644705784827846],[88,Mini-Tape:31734640G41543644bF457537555],[80,Tape-2:04C40B41E44648750751C585],[78,Tape-1:44B480585],[81,Tape-3:43C44B54E],[86,Tape-7:40G],[85,Tape-6:045084481585],[84,Tape-5:116174217221262286306325357360400419426437447463475489527535557561584805864],[82,Tape-4%20%28Delay%29:00704510918422723724725726727631732aG33aG34aG35aG36aG38B40bL41242843B44B45B46B481517577585705724],[83,Tape-4-1:037040086487]
This is the rules configuration I used:

Code: [Select]
{{{1,'L',1},{2,'R',3},{3,'L',3},{0,'R',3}},
 {{2,'L',2},{3,'R',0},{0,'L',0},{1,'R',0}},
 {{3,'R',3},{0,'L',3},{1,'R',1},{2,'L',1}},
 {{0,'R',0},{1,'L',2},{2,'R',2},{3,'L',2}}}

(note, in this discussions, 0 = blue, 1 = red, 2 = yellow, 3 = green)

There are sixteen triples in that.  Each row is what the current state is, and each column is what the current cell is.  So, if the state is 1 and the cell is 2, the instructions are {0,'L',3} which means to change the color of the cell to 0, move the tape left, and change the state to 3.  There are sixteen custom cells in the machine called 0-0, 0-1, 0-2, 0-3, 1-0, 1-1, etc.  You can change these to make whatever rules you want.  The paintbrushes on the right are the ones that changes the cell, the paintbrushes on the bottom are the ones that changes the state, and the one in the middle is the one that moves it left or right.  You could make it not change if you wanted to (by just making it never split to that direction).

I haven't made an easy way to see the whole tape, so it will be hard to see what happens.  It still fully functions though (I tested it with another program to make sure it was working right (not too much, I hope I didn't make a "typo" somewhere)).  Tomorrow, if anybody wants me to, I can say how the whole thing works, but it is extremely late and I need to get to bed.

Oh yeah, also, with the current setup, you can't edit the initial tape.  That could probably be fixed though.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 12:00:53 pm
So, I made a couple more features.

Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,[135,new:44cA],[134,Final:13714015417c918431732aq37641943744bl477481585635654],[52,Recursion:32733737642aG43944aq477],[109,Turing%20with%20Rules:13618433635640J41B43044c845046747bm485517555574637665],[133,Output%20Interpreter:00602403404J05413514G15A16cC18420623425H32733bK34438C40441742bK43448851555458D65G73674J75A76cC78480583484H854],[16,init%20reset:217241254306337340354400443455487537540554635648677685815844],[132,Mini%20Turing%20Machine:02603604B10612114015621722bh24025432533K34435736638640143044bE45048150551553454657465566767bh685837841859875],[110,Interpreter:13717bt18622726by28631734641342143aV44148751752564765bn68573774c3785846854864874],[136,x10:00608410618920624928930638940448A50558B60568B70578B805844884],[82,Tape-4%20%28Delay%29:00704510918422723724725726727631732aG33aG34aG35aG36aG38B40bL41242843B44B45B46B481517577585705724],[105,init%20reset%20copy:217241254306337340354400442455487537540554635648677685815844],[76,Turing%20Machine:02707615618425726bD27436738B44bA46648bk66767bj685725774],[117,1-%3F:30731C35bu38640A41D44bv48750951E53bw58560761F62bx685727737746754],[122,2-%3F:30731C35bz38640A41D44c048750951E53c158560761F62c2685727737746754],[31,Color%20Memory%20Direction:03704105414718622724aW26430634735540042aP46A48050554458562764aX664],[111,0-%3F:30731C35bp38640A41D44bq48750951E53br58560761F62bs685727737746754],[127,3-%3F:30731C35c438640A41D44c548750951E53c658560761F62c7685727737746754],[83,Tape-4-1:037040086487],[75,Color%20Memory:12614415430634H35G40044aV45050I54J555807827846],[72,Almost%20Turing%20Machine:02704613614bF15716623725530633734bP40041bC42bB43A45bD46450553bH54B55461766572774bQ765837845],[108,Turing%20Machine-1:037040086480585],[107,State%20Write%20Test:11714620721022424F306400413425448817846],[118,1-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[119,1-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73G74I837846],[120,1-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[121,1-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73G74I837846],[123,2-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[124,2-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[125,2-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[126,2-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73G74I837846],[32,BR%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435645046348866aT67D68476aU846864],[25,Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435636aS37D38945046348856aT57E58B66aT67F68476aU846864],[33,YG%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27E28435645046348866aT67F68476aU846864],[113,0-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[114,0-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73J74I837846],[115,0-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[116,0-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[128,3-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[129,3-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73I74I837846],[130,3-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[131,3-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73I74I837846],[77,Tape:00604405415J21722630731aG32bI34641bG42bJ43644bF45A47648751553A55756bD57463764bO67572774bN75976bM78580581I84887bK884],[87,Turing-2:24526442D44745aG46565567484B875],[74,Write%20Test:01706611B14620721022423624A25630633C34D35F400413425434444454467817846],[73,Color%20Split:34C36737C38644A46A47F48754D56757D585],[79,Turing-1:00603904806610C11713D14716F17720721aG22623724aG25526727aG28631B34937540L43B46B479515534546574635644705784827846],[88,Mini-Tape:31734640G41543644bF457537555],[30,53-3:03704005443544B456837840854],[28,53-1:486837840884],[29,53-2:037041084485],[80,Tape-2:04C40B41E44648750751C585],[78,Tape-1:44B480585],[81,Tape-3:43C44B54E],[86,Tape-7:40G],[85,Tape-6:045084481585],[84,Tape-5:116174217221262286306325357360400419426437447463475489527535557561584805864]
Balls coming from the left do the same as before.  Balls coming from the top are like you inputted them directly into the machine on the left.  Balls coming from the bottom are like you inputted them directly into the machine on the right.  A blue ball from the right outputs the ten cells to the left on the tape, and a red ball from the right outputs the ten cells to the right on the tape.  Just a note, putting anything in the top, right, or bottom messes up the machine at the moment (Edit: Inputting a green in the top and bottom will fix it IF you have not put anything else in from the left)...
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 11, 2014, 02:01:55 pm
So what you made first is a tape head, not a Turing machine.
A Turing machine also has a state machine.
What you wrote later sounds like one actual specific Turing machine, but I didn't follow it completely so it would be good if you good do a detailed write-up of that.

The holy grail would be a generic Turing machine that you can program by first inputing the state transition matrix and tape contents after which you tell it to run the program based in the input. Want to give that a shot? :)
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 02:23:30 pm
So what you made first is a tape head, not a Turing machine.
A Turing machine also has a state machine.
What you wrote later sounds like one actual specific Turing machine, but I didn't follow it completely so it would be good if you good do a detailed write-up of that.

The holy grail would be a generic Turing machine that you can program by first inputing the state transition matrix and tape contents after which you tell it to run the program based in the input. Want to give that a shot? :)

You can easily change the state transition matrix by changing the custom tiles if you want (the 0-0 and such).  Then, if you want, you can change the tape by putting in your own directions into it from the top (and change the state from the bottom if you want) (make sure you end with green).  So, it is easily customizable.

I have to go, I'll do a writeup when I come back.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 03:40:54 pm
Code: [Select]
http://xorballs.dskl.net/#3,end,[135,new:44cA],[134,Turing%20Machine:13714015417c918431732aq37641943744bl477481585635654],[133,Output%20Interpreter:00602403404J05413514G15A16cC18420623425H32733bK34438C40441742bK43448851555458D65G73674J75A76cC78480583484H854],[52,Recursion:32733737642aG43944aq477],[109,Turing%20with%20Rules:13618433635640J41B43044c845046747bm485517555574637665],[136,x10:00608410618920624928930638940448A50558B60568B70578B805844884],[82,Tape-4%20%28Delay%29:00704510918422723724725726727631732aG33aG34aG35aG36aG38B40bL41242843B44B45B46B481517577585705724],[16,init%20reset:217241254306337340354400443455487537540554635648677685815844],[132,Mini%20Turing%20Machine:02603604B10612114015621722bh24025432533K34435736638640143044bE45048150551553454657465566767bh685837841859875],[110,Interpreter:13717bt18622726by28631734641342143aV44148751752564765bn68573774c3785846854864874],[83,Tape-4-1:037040086487],[105,init%20reset%20copy:217241254306337340354400442455487537540554635648677685815844],[76,Turing%20Machine%20%28no%20instructions%29:02707615618425726bD27436738B44bA46648bk66767bj685725774],[117,1-%3F:30731C35bu38640A41D44bv48750951E53bw58560761F62bx685727737746754],[122,2-%3F:30731C35bz38640A41D44c048750951E53c158560761F62c2685727737746754],[31,Color%20Memory%20Direction:03704105414718622724aW26430634735540042aP46A48050554458562764aX664],[111,0-%3F:30731C35bp38640A41D44bq48750951E53br58560761F62bs685727737746754],[127,3-%3F:30731C35c438640A41D44c548750951E53c658560761F62c7685727737746754],[75,Color%20Memory:12614415430634H35G40044aV45050I54J555807827846],[72,Tape%20Head:02704613614bF15716623725530633734bP40041bC42bB43A45bD46450553bH54B55461766572774bQ765837845],[108,Turing%20Machine-1:037040086480585],[107,State%20Write%20Test:11714620721022424F306400413425448817846],[118,1-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[119,1-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73G74I837846],[120,1-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[121,1-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73G74I837846],[123,2-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[124,2-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[125,2-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[126,2-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73G74I837846],[32,BR%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435645046348866aT67D68476aU846864],[25,Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27C28435636aS37D38945046348856aT57E58B66aT67F68476aU846864],[33,YG%20Partial%20Color%20Memory:04506416aU26aS27E28435645046348866aT67F68476aU846864],[113,0-0:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73H74I837846],[114,0-1:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73J74I837846],[115,0-2:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73J74I837846],[116,0-3:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73J74I837846],[128,3-0:24728634H44A46B47I48756757G58563664B73G74I837846],[129,3-1:24728634G44A46B47I48756757H58563664B73I74I837846],[130,3-2:24728634H44A46B47I48756757I58563664B73I74I837846],[131,3-3:24728634G44A46B47I48756757J58563664B73I74I837846],[77,Tape:00604405415J21722630731aG32bI34641bG42bJ43644bF45A47648751553A55756bD57463764bO67572774bN75976bM78580581I84887bK884],[87,Turing-2:24526442D44745aG46565567484B875],[74,Write%20Test:01706611B14620721022423624A25630633C34D35F400413425434444454467817846],[73,Color%20Split:34C36737C38644A46A47F48754D56757D585],[79,Turing-1:00603904806610C11713D14716F17720721aG22623724aG25526727aG28631B34937540L43B46B479515534546574635644705784827846],[88,Mini-Tape:31734640G41543644bF457537555],[30,53-3:03704005443544B456837840854],[28,53-1:486837840884],[29,53-2:037041084485],[80,Tape-2:04C40B41E44648750751C585],[78,Tape-1:44B480585],[81,Tape-3:43C44B54E],[86,Tape-7:40G],[85,Tape-6:045084481585],[84,Tape-5:116174217221262286306325357360400419426437447463475489527535557561584805864]
I'm going to do a full writeup of how to operate it first, then in the next post a full writeup of how it works.

So, here all of the different functions you can do:

1. Advance the machine with the current instructions
       - To do this, all you need to do is input a ball from the left (of any color).  The internal state will advance by one, and a number of balls will go out the right side with how many times you've done this (the first time it outputs one, the second time it outputs two, etc.)

2. Change the tape
       - This is done by inputting from the top.  Commands to the tape are color coded:
                 Blue: Move tape left
                 Red: Move tape right
                 Yellow: Change the color of the cell in the head.  The next ball you input (from the top) is the new color of the cell.  So, inputting Yellow then Red changes the color to red.
                 Green: Outputs the color of the cell in the head.

3. Change the state of the head
       - This is done by inputting from the bottom.  The Green and Yellow commands work the same here for the state as they do in changing the color of the cell in the head.

4. Change the rules
       - This is done by editing the custom tiles 0-0, 0-1, 0-2, etc.  Blue is 0, Red is 1, Yellow is 2, and Green is 3.  If the current state is 2 and the current color is 1, it will go to 2-1 (I recommend you look at that tile to understand how the instructions work).  The instructions in here tell it to change the color to 0, move the tape left, and change the state to 3.  The blue brush on the right is changing the color to 0 (make sure the yellow gets out first so it reads the instructions correctly), the blue brush in the middle is move left (change it to red to move right), and the green brush on the bottom is change the state to 3 (make sure the yellow gets out first again).  By changing these three brushes in all of the num-num tiles, you can make your own rules.

5. Look at the tape
       - Input a blue from the right to see the 10 tiles on the left side of the tape.  Inputting red does the 10 tiles on the right side.

I think this is everything that needs to be done for it to qualify as being configurable enough.

EDIT: I forgot to mention, due to a minor design flaw, after performing actions 2 or 5 you need to input a green from the top before doing action 1 again.  Also, after performing action 3 you need to input a green from the bottom before doing actions 1 again.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 11, 2014, 03:48:42 pm
Does the transition matrix implement any particular function?

The state machine has at most 4 states, correct?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 03:57:33 pm
Does the transition matrix implement any particular function?

Right now it does.

Code: [Select]
{{{1,'L',1},{2,'R',3},{3,'L',3},{0,'R',3}},
 {{2,'L',2},{3,'R',0},{0,'L',0},{1,'R',0}},
 {{3,'R',3},{0,'L',3},{1,'R',1},{2,'L',1}},
 {{0,'R',0},{1,'L',2},{2,'R',2},{3,'L',2}}}

It's this.  The state is the row, the color is the column.  Each triple is {new color, direction to move the tape, new state}.  It can easily be changed to whatever you want, however.

Quote
The state machine has at most 4 states, correct?

Yes.  One for each color.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 11, 2014, 04:13:26 pm
Does the transition matrix implement any particular function?

Right now it does.

Code: [Select]
{{{1,'L',1},{2,'R',3},{3,'L',3},{0,'R',3}},
 {{2,'L',2},{3,'R',0},{0,'L',0},{1,'R',0}},
 {{3,'R',3},{0,'L',3},{1,'R',1},{2,'L',1}},
 {{0,'R',0},{1,'L',2},{2,'R',2},{3,'L',2}}}

It's this.  The state is the row, the color is the column.  Each triple is {new color, direction to move the tape, new state}.  It can easily be changed to whatever you want, however.

I understand. But that's not very easy to read. By "particular function" I meant something that's easy to explain like "addition". Is there anything special about this particular matrix?
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 04:17:48 pm
Does the transition matrix implement any particular function?

Right now it does.

Code: [Select]
{{{1,'L',1},{2,'R',3},{3,'L',3},{0,'R',3}},
 {{2,'L',2},{3,'R',0},{0,'L',0},{1,'R',0}},
 {{3,'R',3},{0,'L',3},{1,'R',1},{2,'L',1}},
 {{0,'R',0},{1,'L',2},{2,'R',2},{3,'L',2}}}

It's this.  The state is the row, the color is the column.  Each triple is {new color, direction to move the tape, new state}.  It can easily be changed to whatever you want, however.

I understand. But that's not very easy to read. By "particular function" I meant something that's easy to explain like "addition". Is there anything special about this particular matrix?

Oh, no, I ran it in another program and it was the first one I found that doesn't just endlessly go one direction (this one goes back to where it started, goes out, goes back, goes out a bit more, goes back, goes out a bit more, etc.).  I'm sure another set of rules would make something better.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 11, 2014, 06:05:24 pm
Alright.  Now for how the whole thing works.  This post is going to be loooooooooong.

[Any part called something like Tape-2 is something that is usually only simple manipulations of directions.  They are very simple and I won't discuss each one (it's easy to tell what they are).  There are a few exceptions, and I'll discuss those]

Tape Head:

I'm going to start with the Tape Head.  It's the first part I made and is somewhat simple.  It works like action 2 of the whole thing, and input and output are from the left.

All balls coming in go into the Write Test.  Basically, there is a switch in there that will stay the same if the ball coming in is blue, green, or red, but if the ball that came in was yellow, the switch changes.  Then, the next ball that comes in resets it but goes out the bottom instead of the right.  This is how it checks if the current ball is supposed to be changing the color of the current cell or not.

Blue, red, and green balls that come in go through the Color Split.  This makes blue balls go up and right, red balls go right and down, and green balls only right.

Before going on, I need to describe Turing-1 and Turing-2:

Turing-1:

For every ball that goes in the Tape Head (that isn't yellow), two balls go in here.  One from the top, then one from the right.  The color of the one from the top determines the direction of the second.  If blue is first, it goes down.  If red is first, it dies.  If green is first, it goes left.  This tile is there to send out the color of the current cell in the correct direction depending on the function.

Turing-2:

This is like Turing-1 but simpler.  A ball will go in from the left then from the bottom.  If the first was red, it goes up.  If not, it dies.

Now, back to the Tape Head.

I'm going to summarize what happens when a Green and Yellow ball go in:

Green: It goes through the Write Test and Color Split.  It hits a split, one of which goes into Turing-1 from the top, and the other goes into Color Memory from the left.  Color Memory is like the solution to level 53, but instead of going a different direction depending on the last color, it turns into the last saved color and goes down.  The current cell's color goes out the bottom, and back into Turing-1.  Because green went in first, it goes out of the left.  From there, it exits the Tape Head.

Yellow: It goes into the Write Test and stops.  The next input goes out of the Write Test to the bottom and goes into the Color Memory from the right.

A brief discussion of how Tape works is needed to understand what happens when a blue or red ball go in (I'll explain how Tape does all of this later.  You shouldn't actually be looking at Tape itself yet).  Each cell can be "initialized" or "not initialized".  Cells are initialized when they have been in the head before, and default as not initialized.  When a blue ball goes into the top of Tape (it will always be blue if it comes in the top), it means that it needs to go to the end of initialized cells and start giving states back towards the head.  The previous cell's state will come out of the right of Tape.  If a ball of any color goes into the bottom of Tape it means to take that color and pass its old color on until it hits one that is not initialized.

So, what Blue and Red do in Tape Head:

Blue: At Color Split, it goes up and right.  The one that goes up goes into the Tape up there from the top.  The output of that Tape (which is what it used to be) goes into the Color Memory from the right to set the state.  The one that went right from Color Split, through Turing-1, gets the current cell's color going down from Turing-1.  It goes into Mini-Tape (Mini-Tape is simple, just look at it) from the bottom.

Red: At Color Split, it goes right and down.  The one that goes right goes into Turing-2, and the current color comes out of it upwards.  It goes into Tape from the bottom.  The one that went down from Color split goes into Mini-Tape (which turns it blue and sends it into its Tape from the top).  The output from this goes into the Color Memory from the right.

And that's it for Tape Head.

Tape:

Tape is the most complicated of all of the tiles. I'll try to explain it.

When a blue ball comes in from the top, it first checks if the tile has been initialized.  If it has, it goes into the next tape from the top.  If it hasn't, it unitializes it again (because the act of checking initializes it) and goes out to the left.  This means it hit the end of initialized cells.

When something comes out from the left of a Tape in a Tape, it splits in three.  The one that goes left uninitializes, the one that goes right sends its current state out to the right (Tape-5 in this case always sends it out to the right), and the one that goes down sets the current state to blue.  This happens when the cell in it used to be the end of initialized cells, and this becomes that.

When something comes out from the right of a Tape in a Tape, it splits in three.  The one that goes up initializes (it turns green so that it gets stopped before doing things blue balls are supposed to do) (looking at it now, this might not need to be here...), the one that goes down sends its current state out to the right, and the one that goes right sets the current state to whatever the color is.  This is when the tape is moving towards the head.

When something comes in from the bottom, it splits.  The one that goes to the left turns yellow and checks if it's initialized.  If it's not initialized, it initializes it.  If it is initialized, it goes down and right and splits right before entering Tape-5.  The one that goes right here makes it so that the next thing that goes in Tape-5 goes left instead of right.  The one that goes up here sees the current color, goes through Tape-5 to the left, and goes into the next Tape from the bottom.  The one that goes to the right (the one from the beginning) needs to wait for the one that goes to the left to finish, so it goes through Tape-4 (Delay).  It should just be called delay probably.  The delay delays it for a while.  When it's done, it sets the color to whatever it is.  This is when the tape is moving away from the head.

That's how the whole Tape Head works.

Turing Machine (no instructions):

This is the Tape Head with states as well.  The Tape Head works the same, but if something comes in from the right, it does stuff with the state.  The State Write Test is the same as the Write Test (but without red and blue).  When green comes in from the right, it goes through the State Write Test fine, goes into Color Memory (which stores the state) from the left, exits from it down, and leaves to the right.  When yellow comes in from the right, it stops at the State Write Test, and the next ball goes down.  This goes into Color Memory from the right.

Mini-Turing Machine: (for lack of a better name)

If something comes in from the left it goes into the Turing Machine (no instructions) from the left and leaves to the left.  If it comes from the top it goes into the Turing Machine (no instructions) to the left, but leaves to the top.  A similar thing happens for right and down.

Turing with Rules:

Balls from the top and bottom go into the Mini-Turing Machine and come out normally.  Balls from the left turn green and split in two.  One checks the current cell's color and the other checks the head's state.  The state then the color (in that order) go into the Interpreter.  The Interpreter interprets the state and color into commands.  Commands that change the tape leave out of the right and go into the Mini-Turing Machine on the left, and commands that change the state leave out of the bottom and go into the Mini-Turing machine on the right.

Interpreter:

When the state comes in, it remembers the color (as a direction) by going into Color Memory Direction from the right.  When the cell's color comes in, it goes into Color Memory Direction from the left and goes the direction of the state.  The directions lead to the num-? tiles.  Commands for the tape go out the right and commands for the state go out the bottom.

num-?:

When the cell's color comes in, it filters by color and goes into the num-num tiles.  Commands for the tape go out the right and commands for the state go out the bottom.

num-num:

When a ball comes in from the left, it turns it into commands.  Commands for the tape go out the right and commands for the state go out the bottom.  On the right is the new color for the tape, in the middle is the direction to move the tape, and to the bottom is the new color of the state.

And, finally:

Turing Machine:

Balls from the left split.  One goes into Turing with Rules, while the other goes into a solution for 57 (Recursion), which leaves out to the right.  Balls from the top and bottom go into and from Turing with Rules normally.  Balls from the right go through Output Interpreter which just turns blue into [B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,B,G,R,R,R,R,R,R,R,R,R,R] and red into the same with B and R switched, and those sequences go into Turing with Rules from the top.


So there you have it.  I don't think I'm too good at explaining this stuff, so sorry if you don't understand..
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: sudgy on February 12, 2014, 08:24:11 pm
One other thing, because apparently this Turing Machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine) is universal, and because you could easily make it with mine, xorballs is Turing complete.
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 15, 2014, 07:09:47 am
I've been convinced from the very beginning that Xorballs is Turing complete, but I'm not convince that the proof is quite there yet. The wikipedia article isn't clear on whether the 2,3 Turing machine is proven universal or only conjectured, but it also says "The (2,3) Turing machine also requires an infinite non-repeating input" which your machine doesn't have.

That said, it's still very cool that you made some kind of Turing machine. Congratulations again. I admit I haven't read the entire description because it's still quite hard to follow, but I have a reasonable idea of how it should work. If you want more challenge, you could try making a state machine with an arbitrary number of states, or one that you can program by encoding the states in the initial input :).
Title: Re: a fascinating puzzle game
Post by: David on February 23, 2014, 02:46:08 pm
Another nice challenge that I didn't get around to adding to the game is to create a prime number generator.
Mine takes any color ball from the left and outputs either a blue or a red ball on the right. The sequence it outputs is:

blue (2 is prime)
blue (3 is prime)
red (4 is not prime)
blue (5 is prime)
red (6 is not prime)
etc...