Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Guilds Previews => Topic started by: MainiacJoe on April 02, 2013, 11:15:29 am
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Thief later got reincarnated as Noble Brigand. Spy later was "done right' as Rabble.
I've always liked Chancellor's "immediately put your deck into your discard pile" but it's trapped on a very weak card. I'm hoping this idea gets another treatment in Guilds.
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I've always liked Chancellor's "immediately put your deck into your discard pile" but it's trapped on a very weak card. I'm hoping this idea gets another treatment in Guilds.
See http://www.dominiondeck.com/cards/scavenger (http://www.dominiondeck.com/cards/scavenger)
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Pearl Diver as a card that actually does something would be awesome. Okay, the original isn't a bad card, but it isn't powerful either.
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Scout.
Is there any hope for Scout?
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Scout.
Is there any hope for Scout?
I think Vagrant is the fixed Scout.
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Kind of interesting how many card already have been re-done:
scout-vagrant
spy-rabble
chancellor-scavenger
thief-noble brigand
Any others?
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Workshop -> Ironworks
Saboteur -> Knights
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Wishing Well -> Mystic
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I've always liked Chancellor's "immediately put your deck into your discard pile" but it's trapped on a very weak card. I'm hoping this idea gets another treatment in Guilds.
See http://www.dominiondeck.com/cards/scavenger (http://www.dominiondeck.com/cards/scavenger)
Oh, duh. I haven't played with Dark Ages yet but still feel stupid.
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Navigator -> Cartographer
Black Market -> Tournament
I often feel like Apothecary is a fixed Counting House, but Apothecary predates Counting House (at least by release).
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The idea of Counting House is nice, I think, but Coppers are not a nice target. The fixed form could search for one card in the discard pile that you choose, like
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and reveal a card. Put that card into your hand.
2-3$
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The idea of Counting House is nice, I think, but Coppers are not a nice target. The fixed form could search for one card in the discard pile that you choose, like
+1 Action
Look through your discard pile and reveal a card. Put that card into your hand.
2-3$
This effect has been discussed, and it is just way too strong. It's a lot like Band of Misfits, except focuses on power cards rather than cheap cards. You could use it to replay your Platinum, or Potion/Philosopher's Stone, or Ghost Ship, or Rebuild, or what have you over and over.
Edit: May this (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7670.new#new) would work? Either way, let's not derail this current topic.
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Possibly, you need to pay coin tokens and put a card costing up to 1$ per paid coin to your hand.
Or the cost should be restricted, or the card should be terminal, or it should be limited to a card type (like a delayed Scheme).
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
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Adventurer -> Venture
Spy -> Oracle
This isn't a "bettering", but Salvager works how most new players think Remodel works.
Also, I love how spellcheck thinks "bettering" is a word, but not "salvager" or "spellcheck."
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Adventurer -> Venture
Spy -> Oracle
This isn't a "bettering", but Salvager works how most new players think Remodel works.
Also, I love how spellcheck thinks "bettering" is a word, but not "salvager" or "spellcheck."
Bettering IS a word though...Spell Check is two words isn't it (it used to have a hyphen)?.
Dunno why it doesnt pick up Salvager!
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Obviously one
Market---> Grand Market
Remodel--->Upgrade/Expand/Remake
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I meant in terms of making it better. market and black market were already good cards.
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Workshop -> Ironworks
Saboteur -> Knights
I think I'd consider these more variants than fixes. There are a number of Workshop+ cards (Ironworks, Armory, Nomad Camp, Goons). Saboteur and Knights are both trashing attacks, but I think they fill different niches.
Likewise for most other suggestions in this thread. Wishing Well and Mystic are different niches s well. Navigator and Cartographer come from the same set, so it's not like one was an update to another.
Noble Brigand/Thief and Scavenger/Chancellor are the best examples, I think. Rabble looks pretty different from Spy, but Donald X did make that comment.
Edited to cross out embarassing mistakes.
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I think I'd consider these more variants than fixes. There are a number of Workshop+ cards (Ironworks, Armory, Nomad Camp, Goons).
Buh wha? How are Nomad Camp and Goons similar to Workshop? Did you start thinking of Woodcutter mid-sentence?
Likewise for most other suggestions in this thread. Wishing Well and Mystic are different niches s well. Navigator and Cartographer come from the same set, so it's not like one was an update to another.
Navigator is from Seaside. Cartographer is from Hinterlands. Although I agree that they're not really comparable.
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Obviously one
Market---> Grand Market
Remodel--->Upgrade/Expand/Remake
He means when DXV released a card that wasn't helpful to the game, so he later made a version that did a similar thing in a way that contributed more to the game. e.g. Thief was useless in most cases, so Noble Brigand is a powerup on it; Spy was mostly a pointless card, so Rabble properly screws with the opponent's deck while also being a useful card outside the attack part.
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I think I'd consider these more variants than fixes. There are a number of Workshop+ cards (Ironworks, Armory, Nomad Camp, Goons).
Buh wha? How are Nomad Camp and Goons similar to Workshop? Did you start thinking of Woodcutter mid-sentence?
Likewise for most other suggestions in this thread. Wishing Well and Mystic are different niches s well. Navigator and Cartographer come from the same set, so it's not like one was an update to another.
Navigator is from Seaside. Cartographer is from Hinterlands. Although I agree that they're not really comparable.
Whooooops, I totally did switch to Woodcutter mid-sentence. Embarassing!
Whoa, Cartographer isn't Seaside? Oops again. >_>
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Cartographer and Navigator both look at the next five cards and let you discard them. Cartographer lets you discard only a subset though. Aside from that, they each have a vanilla bonus tacked on -- Cartographer is a cantrip and Navigator is terminal Silver.
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Cartographer and Navigator both look at the next five cards and let you discard them. Cartographer lets you discard only a subset though. Aside from that, they each have a vanilla bonus tacked on -- Cartographer is a cantrip and Navigator is terminal Silver.
Cartographer only looks at 4 cards, unless you're also counting the card that is drawn.
I do think they fill different niches though. Navigator is pretty much just for cycling so you can play your best cards often. Cartographer, on the other hand, is for filtering and pairing up combo cards. I don't really see Cartographer as an improvement over Navigator. I mean, Navigator filled its role fine and Cartographer fills a different role.
Thief vs. NB, on the other hand, both fulfill the same role of stealing treasure. NB simply does it better (usually). Likewise, Scavenger and Chancellor are both deck flippers.
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Whoops.
In this topic: veteran Dominion players don't remember what any Dominion cards do.
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Whoops.
In this topic: veteran Dominion players don't remember what any Dominion cards do.
That's what you get when Iso Dominion goes down.
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Whoops.
In this topic: veteran Dominion players don't remember what any Dominion cards do.
That's what you get when Iso Dominion goes down.
Well, for my mistakes, I often mix up Workshop and Woodcutter because they are both base set $3 terminals with similar names and similar ability (gaining is a virtual +Buy).
And I learned all the cards all at once, mostly through Androminion, so I'm a little less clear on which things are in which set. I always thought Cartographer was Seaside because map-making feels related to the coast/seaside (and hey -- Treasure Map), and also because it fits the Seaside theme of things happening on the next turn (in this case, setting up the top of your deck for next turn).
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See, I learned the cards through diehrstraits and the sporcle quiz, so they are all neatly segregated into expansions in my head.
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Likewise, Scavenger and Chancellor are both deck flippers.
I have to disagree with this. Scavenger's main purpose is as a Demonic Tutor; its deck-flipping capability is simply a facet of that.
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See, I learned the cards through diehrstraits and the sporcle quiz, so they are all neatly segregated into expansions in my head.
I learned them from Iso. :'(
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I have to disagree with this. Scavenger's main purpose is as a Demonic Tutor; its deck-flipping capability is simply a facet of that.
Please don't assume we all play magic, or know all magic cards by heart (to save the others from googling, here's the card). By the way, I totally agree with you.
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=193867&type=card)
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I have to disagree with this. Scavenger's main purpose is as a Demonic Tutor; its deck-flipping capability is simply a facet of that.
Please don't assume we all play magic, or know all magic cards by heart (to save the others from googling, here's the card). By the way, I totally agree with you.
(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=193867&type=card)
Yeah, sorry... I actually don't play Magic at all, it's just that this particular "idea" came up so often prior to Dark Ages that it's been inextricably linked with the card in my mind.
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Of all the cards in the base set that haven't had a second look, Bureaucrat could do with a redo.
Tax Collector in LastFootnote's "Enterprise" expansion does a pretty good job:
Tax Collector
Types: Action - Attack
Cost: $5
+$2. Each other player with at least 5 cards in hand reveals a card from his hand other than a Copper (or reveals a hand of all Copper). He discards it or puts it onto his deck, your choice.
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"Put a dead card on your deck or discard a useful card" (what the pie-rule wording of the card basically amounts to) sounds like an AP-laden choice to me.
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"Put a dead card on your deck or discard a useful card" (what the pie-rule wording of the card basically amounts to) sounds like an AP-laden choice to me.
In practice it's pretty quick. Sometimes it takes a moment, but it's no worse than Ghost Ship on average.
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Oohh tax collecter pin sounds yummmmy.
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Oohh tax collecter pin sounds yummmmy.
How do you plan to do that?
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Oohh tax collecter pin sounds yummmmy.
How do you plan to do that?
Kc-Kc-tc-tc-x. Gives them a hand of either zero cards or copper. Eventually you get them in a vp lock.
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Oohh tax collecter pin sounds yummmmy.
How do you plan to do that?
Kc-Kc-tc-tc-x. Gives them a hand of either zero cards or copper. Eventually you get them in a vp lock.
But it only affects players with at least 5 cards in hand.
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Oh :P
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Isn't Crossroads a re-done Scout?
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I think there are very few (personally, 2) cards that count as re-done. I consider the rest "variations on a theme of _______".
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I would think cartographer IS the better scout! Both are non-terminals, and cartographer fixes why scout is a such notorious card. The +2 coins on Navigator with the fact that it's a terminal makes it play very different.
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I have to disagree with this. Scavenger's main purpose is as a Demonic Tutor; its deck-flipping capability is simply a facet of that.
I could just as easily say that Chancellor's purpose is a worse Demonic Tutor.
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Junk Dealer is the offspring of Upgrade and Oasis.
And of course Armory is a redone Workshop.
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I don't want weak cards redone. I want new unique cards!
Except maybe an improved Scout. ;)
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I don't want weak cards redone. I want new unique cards!
Except maybe an improved Scout. ;)
A simple cantrip Scout, guaranteeing that you always get at least 1 card out of it, seems nice.
But then again Crossroads doesn't guarantee drawing a card and no one complains about that! :D
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Doctor is kind of better Lookout and Butcher the improvement of remodel. Journeyman is a smithy variant and Baker a peddler variant. Hope there are a few cards you which aren't remakes or variants...
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That doesn't need spoiler tags.
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That doesn't need spoiler tags.
Right, didn't notice that's in the Guilds subforum :-\
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Oh, and I hadn't even considered the possibility that some people might be avoiding the Guilds Previews until the game is released.
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I really hope for a Bureaucrat variant and Coppersmith variant. It is not like the two are bad cards per se, but the games where these are good choices are relatively rare.
Despite that: A fixed Secret Chamber (the reaction, not the 'active').
This has nothing to do with re-done cards, but I also want something like an reverse Menagerie attack, something that is more punishing when players have less duplicates in hand, just for variety and because it could potentially be fun to set it off on purpose. :)
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This has nothing to do with re-done cards, but I also want something like an reverse Menagerie attack, something that is more punishing when players have less duplicates in hand, just for variety and because it could potentially be fun to set it off on purpose. :)
What, like:
Ha Ha!
$5 - Action
Each other player reveals their hand. If it has no duplicates, they trash their hand.
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This has nothing to do with re-done cards, but I also want something like an reverse Menagerie attack, something that is more punishing when players have less duplicates in hand, just for variety and because it could potentially be fun to set it off on purpose. :)
What, like:
Ha Ha!
$5 - Action
Each other player reveals their hand. If it has no duplicates, they trash their hand.
Probably more like making them discard all duplicates. Which, perhaps ironically, would let them menagerie successfully for sure.
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This has nothing to do with re-done cards, but I also want something like an reverse Menagerie attack, something that is more punishing when players have less duplicates in hand, just for variety and because it could potentially be fun to set it off on purpose. :)
What, like:
Ha Ha!
$5 - Action
Each other player reveals their hand. If it has no duplicates, they trash their hand.
Probably more like making them discard all duplicates. Which, perhaps ironically, would let them menagerie successfully for sure.
That's fixable.
"Each other player reveals their hand. They discard any Menageries, then discard cards until their hand has no duplicates."
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Probably more like making them discard all duplicates. Which, perhaps ironically, would let them menagerie successfully for sure.
I thought of this, but it just destroys any hand that's only Coppers and Estates. It's like a super-Cutpurse very early on.
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Naa, more something like:
+(2)
Each other player reveals their hand. If he reveals any duplicates he discards a card costing more than 0 that is not a Victory Card. If he doesn't discard a card he gains a Curse in hand.
Or
+1 Coin Token
Each other player reveals their hand. For every card revealed with a different name:
He may pay a Coin Token. If he doesn't he chooses one: Discard a card that is not a duplicate or gain a curse.
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Naa, more something like:
+(2)
Each other player reveals their hand. If he reveals any duplicates he discards a card costing more than 0 that is not a Victory Card. If he doesn't discard a card he gains a Curse in hand.
Or
+1 Coin Token
Each other player reveals their hand. For every card revealed with a different name:
He may pay a Coin Token. If he doesn't he chooses one: Discard a card that is not a duplicate or gain a curse.
Talk about First Player Advantage!
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So there is a bureaucrat/mine/cutpurse card, which I think is a great combination of lesser used cards. I hope it turns out to be good.
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
Yes. I totally agree with that. Thief, Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand, each have their own unique effects.
Same goes to Chancellor and Scavenger, to Saboteur and Knights, to Wishing Well and Mystic. None of the "updated" cards can replace their older versions...
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
Yes. I totally agree with that. Thief, Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand, each have their own unique effects.
Same goes to Chancellor and Scavenger, to Saboteur and Knights, to Wishing Well and Mystic. None of the "updated" cards can replace their older versions...
That is true for Scavenger, because it costs $1 more than Chancellor. Knights and Mystic aren't really updated versions of Saboteur and Wishing well, they are entirely different, and Pirate Ship too, but Noble Brigand really is just a Thief that is better than Thief in almost every way.
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
Yes. I totally agree with that. Thief, Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand, each have their own unique effects.
Same goes to Chancellor and Scavenger, to Saboteur and Knights, to Wishing Well and Mystic. None of the "updated" cards can replace their older versions...
That is true for Scavenger, because it costs $1 more than Chancellor. Knights and Mystic aren't really updated versions of Saboteur and Wishing well, they are entirely different, and Pirate Ship too, but Noble Brigand really is just a Thief that is better than Thief in almost every way.
Seriously, not at all. Thief can steal Platinium, IGG, Fool's gold, and other treasure cards. It just makes the card completely different. Thief can steal coppers too, and that can be useful in alt-vp games.
The vast majority of games where I used thief, Noble brigand couldn't be used the same way as thief. And inversely. Their uses are clearly not the same.
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
Yes. I totally agree with that. Thief, Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand, each have their own unique effects.
Same goes to Chancellor and Scavenger, to Saboteur and Knights, to Wishing Well and Mystic. None of the "updated" cards can replace their older versions...
That is true for Scavenger, because it costs $1 more than Chancellor. Knights and Mystic aren't really updated versions of Saboteur and Wishing well, they are entirely different, and Pirate Ship too, but Noble Brigand really is just a Thief that is better than Thief in almost every way.
Seriously, not at all. Thief can steal Platinium, IGG, Fool's gold, and other treasure cards. It just makes the card completely different. Thief can steal coppers too, and that can be useful in alt-vp games.
The vast majority of games where I used thief, Noble brigand couldn't be used the same way as thief. And inversely. Their uses are clearly not the same.
A cool Colony game (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131030/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1383183003235.txt) where after my T16 KC-Thief my opponent is completely out of money.
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Noble brigand is not a fixed version of thief. Even if they have a similar effect, they are different cards !
Yes. I totally agree with that. Thief, Pirate Ship and Noble Brigand, each have their own unique effects.
Same goes to Chancellor and Scavenger, to Saboteur and Knights, to Wishing Well and Mystic. None of the "updated" cards can replace their older versions...
That is true for Scavenger, because it costs $1 more than Chancellor. Knights and Mystic aren't really updated versions of Saboteur and Wishing well, they are entirely different, and Pirate Ship too, but Noble Brigand really is just a Thief that is better than Thief in almost every way.
Seriously, not at all. Thief can steal Platinium, IGG, Fool's gold, and other treasure cards. It just makes the card completely different. Thief can steal coppers too, and that can be useful in alt-vp games.
The vast majority of games where I used thief, Noble brigand couldn't be used the same way as thief. And inversely. Their uses are clearly not the same.
A cool Colony game (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131030/log.505d732a51c359e6597efeb8.1383183003235.txt) where after my T16 KC-Thief my opponent is completely out of money.
This is a great game!!
I think what is interesting about Thief is that it is one of the rare attacks which you don't often want in the opening because there it usually is just helping your opponents trash. (Well, that, and that it's better in multiplayer.)