Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion Isotropic => Topic started by: gryph202 on March 07, 2013, 09:49:30 pm

Title: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 07, 2013, 09:49:30 pm
Today, I had the privilege of playing Innovation for the first time ever.  It happened to be on Isotropic.  I get a little gunshy about new games, so it is nice to be able to sample them online before I go out and make a purchase.  With Innovation, I will almost certainly purchase the game from Amazon, but that's not really the point of this thread.

I will perhaps play Dominion at Goko from time to time, but having played Innovation on Isotropic reinforces my personal belief that Goko is not worth spending money on at this point.  Please bear in mind, my opinion is only my own, but I don't think many folks here would disagree with me that Goko's rollout almost eight months ago was a debacle.  I believe that the management at Goko made promises that they couldn't deliver on and still can't.

I love Dominion and I realize that Jay Tummelson at RGG has worked very hard to reach his current level of success.  I will continue to patronize RGG and I will continue to enjoy Dominion up to and including purchasing Dominion: Guilds.  I am NOT calling for a boycott of Goko, RGG, or any of the other parties involved.  Goko will survive or fade away on its own merit (or lack thereof).

I am simply stating my intent that, when it comes to online gaming, I am personally staying with Isotropic.  Chris and the other ladies and gentlemen at Asmadi Games are really sticking their neck out in allowing Innovation on a platform like this, much in the same manner that Jay Tummelson did once upon a time.  I intend to encourage this kind of innovation (pun intended) in future game design, and I hope that many of my fellow Dominion lovers will hop on the Innovation bandwagon whether or not they choose to play Dominion at Goko.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: D Bo on March 08, 2013, 07:29:11 am
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 08, 2013, 10:21:50 am
I learned the rules really fast playing on Iso.  It's not a difficult game to pick up, but it's a little more chaotic than my usual gaming fare, and it doesn't play as quickly as Dominion does most of the time.  If you have a hard time finding a tabletop game of Innovation, don't let that scare you away from the Iso implementation.  It's a great game any way you hack (again pun intended) it.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: qmech on March 08, 2013, 01:24:07 pm
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: eHalcyon on March 08, 2013, 01:25:49 pm
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening. :P
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 08, 2013, 01:35:29 pm
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening. :P

I didn't either, until I read through the rules from the Iello version of the game and came back and played a couple more times.  Just knowing the object of the game and how to go about achieving it works wonders.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: eHalcyon on March 08, 2013, 02:29:03 pm
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening. :P

I didn't either, until I read through the rules from the Iello version of the game and came back and played a couple more times.  Just knowing the object of the game and how to go about achieving it works wonders.

Well, two of us had actually read the rules so we had *some* clue, but it just felt ridiculous with 5 people.  That's a lot of tableaus to track!  It would have been more manageable if we had played 1v1.

The guy who won was one who hadn't read the rules.  He won despite giving us all an extra turn because he didn't notice he could have used one of his dogmas to score and then grab his fifth achievement.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: popsofctown on March 08, 2013, 03:29:52 pm
You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 08, 2013, 03:34:27 pm
You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Actually, with the Echoes expansion, there is a proviso for five players.  But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Kirian on March 08, 2013, 04:47:54 pm
But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: eHalcyon on March 08, 2013, 04:58:20 pm
You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Was not aware.  And I don't think we included the expansion, so... oops!

For the record, my comment wasn't saying that Innovation is a bad game or anything.  Just that we tried it with lots of players and it was a mess.  A hilarious mess though. :)
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 08, 2013, 05:04:04 pm
You are aware the back of the box says 2-4 players right?  Dougz is a cool guy and saw no reason to prohibit you from playing with 5 but that is not a recommended thing to be doing.

Was not aware.  And I don't think we included the expansion, so... oops!

For the record, my comment wasn't saying that Innovation is a bad game or anything.  Just that we tried it with lots of players and it was a mess.  A hilarious mess though. :)

My recommendation would be the same for online play as IRL:  Read the rules, make sure you at least know what the object is and how to achieve it, and play your first several games with another player who is just as clueless as you are.  This advice probably won't do you much good now, but for any other Innovation newcomers reading this, it will smooth the rough path somewhat.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: teasel on March 08, 2013, 08:29:30 pm
this game is fucking amazing!
i can't stop playing! come play with me!
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Ozle on March 09, 2013, 07:41:08 am
But theoretically, Dominion could be played with an unlimited number of players as well.  The lack of a limit is nothing more than a reflection of the underlying Iso engine.

Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn you sir
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: zahlman on March 09, 2013, 06:01:06 pm
Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn it, I just gained a Curse.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: SirPeebles on March 09, 2013, 07:16:22 pm
Rule 1:  Everyone in the world is playing The Game Dominion.

Damn it, I just gained a Curse.

Well there aren't many good openings left if you aren't one of the first 200 or so players.  By the way, the winning move is opening Duchy.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Gherald on March 09, 2013, 07:36:16 pm
In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: SirPeebles on March 09, 2013, 07:44:35 pm
In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses

I've seen literary interpretations claiming that it is latent Oedipal desire which causes Hamlet's analysis paralysis.  I always figured it was just the difficulty in knowing whether your Smithy will draw another Smithy or a load of cash.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: werothegreat on March 09, 2013, 08:05:19 pm
In the literary interpretations, some people start with 5 coppers and curses

I've seen literary interpretations claiming that it is latent Oedipal desire which causes Hamlet's analysis paralysis.  I always figured it was just the difficulty in knowing whether your Smithy will draw another Smithy or a load of cash.

Said Hamlet to his Steward: "To trash, or not to trash, that is the question."
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Stealth Tomato on March 11, 2013, 11:32:35 am
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening. :P

This is also how it works when you play Innovation live. It's a card game where every card is unique and has a horrendous amount of text.

I've played six games of it live now, each time going in hoping it will get better this time since I understand the mechanics more now, but every time I end up with a splitting headache, a feeling of unfulfillment, and a desire to douse the cards in gasoline and light them on fire.

To play effectively, you need to be able to anticipate and prepare for your opponents' potential moves. Since all cards are available in each game, you can't do that unless you've memorized all the cards, which you realistically can't because they're all unique and contain a huge amount of information.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: zahlman on March 11, 2013, 12:21:00 pm
On a serious note, though, is there somewhere I can get the Innovation rule sheet that doesn't involve signing up for BGG?
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: jsh357 on March 11, 2013, 12:27:19 pm
On a serious note, though, is there somewhere I can get the Innovation rule sheet that doesn't involve signing up for BGG?

http://www.asmadigames.com/innovation/InnovationRulesWeb.pdf
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Watno on March 11, 2013, 12:34:36 pm
On a less serious note, I think everyone should have a BGG account.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 11, 2013, 06:15:51 pm
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: eHalcyon on March 11, 2013, 09:31:00 pm
I just got Innovation myself - hoping to learn the rules prior to jumping on Iso and fumbling my way through games at the expense of other people's enjoyment. Hoping it's a fun game though!

Fumbling your way through games with people you know IRL is fun, because the names of the cards produce a frequently hilarious little story as you play things out.

Four of my friends and I tried to play Innovation on iso... it was chaos.  None of us knew what was happening. :P

This is also how it works when you play Innovation live. It's a card game where every card is unique and has a horrendous amount of text.

I've played six games of it live now, each time going in hoping it will get better this time since I understand the mechanics more now, but every time I end up with a splitting headache, a feeling of unfulfillment, and a desire to douse the cards in gasoline and light them on fire.

To play effectively, you need to be able to anticipate and prepare for your opponents' potential moves. Since all cards are available in each game, you can't do that unless you've memorized all the cards, which you realistically can't because they're all unique and contain a huge amount of information.

I disagree with this.  I think memorizing all the cards is absolutely possible and actually not too difficult if you actually work on it.  Human memory is amazing!  But the main reason I think it is possible is because most of us here have memorized all the Dominion cards.  I know what all the Dominion cards do, including those in Dark Ages, and I can tell you what most are word for word.  So if I played Innovation a lot, I'm sure I would start to remember what everything is.

That said, it does make Innovation feel a lot more chaotic for newbies.  With Dominion, at least you can see everything that will be available at the start of the game.  You spend a few minutes to read 10 cards.  As a newbie to Innovation, you don't want to go through 10 full decks.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Watno on March 11, 2013, 10:03:18 pm
Innovation cards also have combinations of symbols on them.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 11, 2013, 10:03:55 pm
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Awaclus on March 12, 2013, 07:43:05 am
I disagree with this.  I think memorizing all the cards is absolutely possible and actually not too difficult if you actually work on it.  Human memory is amazing!  But the main reason I think it is possible is because most of us here have memorized all the Dominion cards.  I know what all the Dominion cards do, including those in Dark Ages, and I can tell you what most are word for word.  So if I played Innovation a lot, I'm sure I would start to remember what everything is.
This. When I was an active Magic: the Gathering player, I had over 6000 cards memorized so that if someone said the card's name, I could tell them how the exact OracleTM wording goes (I have forgotten most of it, though).
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: teasel on March 12, 2013, 08:07:20 am
is this being handled by dougz? will it have future expansion when they get released? i'm very interessed in this but nobody seems to know anything....
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Ozle on March 12, 2013, 09:07:12 am
is this being handled by dougz? will it have future expansion when they get released? i'm very interessed in this but nobody seems to know anything....

We have a whole forum full of answers that may help
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=48.0
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: teasel on March 12, 2013, 11:20:57 am
is this being handled by dougz? will it have future expansion when they get released? i'm very interessed in this but nobody seems to know anything....

We have a whole forum full of answers that may help
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?board=48.0

oh i had no idea we had one
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: popsofctown on March 12, 2013, 11:25:10 am
The necessary memorization just makes it hard getting started.  You learn the really key ones pretty fast though, Road Building, Machinery, Vaccination, Gunpowder.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: ipofanes on March 12, 2013, 11:36:27 am
On a less serious note, I think everyone should have a BGG account.
I have plenty of time sinks, this one would be the nail in the coffin.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Kirian on March 12, 2013, 11:39:34 am
On a less serious note, I think everyone should have a BGG account.
I have plenty of time sinks, this one would be the nail in the coffin.


Nah, just sign up for the account so you have access.  No need to do anything else there.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: ipofanes on March 12, 2013, 12:14:06 pm
Once I signed in I'll swear I'll stop after the first microbadge acquisition!
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Kirian on March 12, 2013, 12:16:21 pm
Once I signed in I'll swear I'll stop after the first microbadge acquisition!

You know, I actually have no clue how to acquire a microbadge or any of that stuff.  My account is extremely barren.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: DStu on March 12, 2013, 12:20:19 pm
Once I signed in I'll swear I'll stop after the first microbadge acquisition!

You know, I actually have no clue how to acquire a microbadge or any of that stuff.  My account is extremely barren.
I just waited 1 1/2 years after signing in, than I got a mail for christmas (which I saw somewhen last month) which gave me a coupon for 3 badges.  Probably there is a faster way to get them...
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Watno on March 12, 2013, 12:32:03 pm
Damn, I just noticed i have two of those mails, but they expire after 180 days :P
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Beyond Awesome on March 12, 2013, 05:55:39 pm
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.

I would like to take you up on your offer. And, I wouldn't say I'm lazy. I just don't want to read the rulebook. I prefer learning by actually playing.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: werothegreat on March 12, 2013, 06:29:26 pm
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.

I would like to take you up on your offer. And, I wouldn't say I'm lazy. I just don't want to read the rulebook. I prefer learning by actually playing.

With Innovation, you really do need to read the rules.  My first game of Innovation was that picture of a dog at a computer with the caption "I don't know what I'm doing."
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: gryph202 on March 12, 2013, 08:08:06 pm
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.

I would like to take you up on your offer. And, I wouldn't say I'm lazy. I just don't want to read the rulebook. I prefer learning by actually playing.

Innovation Rules Summary:

Taking your turn:
You take two actions per turn, which can either consist of drawing an innovation, melding an innovation to its corresponding pile, invoking a visible dogma, or dominating an age (provided scoring and top card requirements are met).  First person to gain the required number of achievements (six in a two-player game) wins immediately.

Invoking Dogma:
Every card except for the special achievements represents an innovation and has a group of icons on it, as well as one or more associated dogmas.  If you invoke a dogma, any player with at least as many of its corresponding icon as you have will follow that dogma first.  If you invoke a demand dogma (the ones that begin "I demand..."), you make that demand only of players that have fewer of the corresponding icon than you do.

Basic achievements:
In order to win a basic achievement (numbered one through nine), two conditions must be met.  Your score pile must have at least 5x the number of points as that achievement, and at least one top card on the player's board must be that level or higher.  If both of those conditions are met, the player may use one of their two actions to "dominate" that age.

Special achievements:
Not all of the achievements are numbered.  Some (e.g. "world," "universe," "monument," et. al) have special conditions listed on them.  Once those conditions are met, that special achievement is scored immeidately without requiring the use of an action.  These special achievements also have corresponding innovations which may be used to score the special achievements via dogma.

Other win conditions:
Some dogmas set win conditions or end the game when invoked.  If a dogma sets a win condition, whoever meets those conditions wins immediately (with influence score used as a tie-breaker).  If a dogma ends the game without setting a win condition, the player with the most influence wins.

Trust me, folks, this is as simple as I can make it without quoting the rulebook verbatim.  If this makes sense at all, give Innovation a try.  If this all reads like Greek, the rulebook does a much better job of explaining the particulars than I can.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: blueblimp on March 12, 2013, 11:34:27 pm
The rulebook isn't too long and you can try most stuff out in a solitaire game. (Or better, play against yourself in another browser.) That's how I figured it out.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: ipofanes on March 13, 2013, 04:24:16 am
I'm too lazy to read the Innovation rules. I want to learn to play though.

I can teach you how to play, if you're patient.  But regardless, I don't think Innovation is a game for the lazy.

I would like to take you up on your offer. And, I wouldn't say I'm lazy. I just don't want to read the rulebook. I prefer learning by actually playing.

With Innovation, you really do need to read the rules.  My first game of Innovation was that picture of a dog at a computer with the caption "I don't know what I'm doing."

Actually, I sent the link to that meme to my opponent while playing my first game. He didn't mind though.
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: Kuildeous on March 13, 2013, 09:52:56 am
Said Hamlet to his Steward: "ToTwo trash, or not totwo trash, that is the question."
Title: Re: No thanks, Goko
Post by: TheSadPanda on March 15, 2013, 07:07:18 pm
Innovation is pretty good, thats for sure! learned over xmas and played a bit, starting tomorrow I will be on a bunch more, look forward to playing w you.

TheSadPanda