| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b7/Chancellor.jpg/200px-Chancellor.jpg) | #32 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 4.4% ▼3.3pp / Median: 3.2% ▼0.8pp / Standard Deviation: 8.6% =0 Highest Value(s): 48.4% (1x), 23.3% (1x), 22.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (24x) Chancellor is without a doubt again the worst $3 card this year. It even lost over 3pp and has the second least devation in this list. It has only one high outlier and 24 last ranks. Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently bought great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it only shines in rare scenarios like Stash or maybe Counting House and can be good in Potion games. But if you want to get your recently bought cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck like Royal Seal, Watchtower or Armory. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/d/d6/Woodcutter.jpg/200px-Woodcutter.jpg) | #31 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 13.8% ▼2.2pp / Median: 9.7% ▼6.3pp / Standard Deviation: 12.5% ▼0.2pp Highest Value(s): 58.1% (2x), 36.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x) Another card from the base set, and it lost a rank comparing to last year. It got 4 last places and has still a pretty high consensus. It is mostly worse than Silver as its only use is its +Buy. Sure, +Buy can be pretty important, especially in engine games, but still that makes it no power card as you still only buy it when there's no other card that provides that +Buy. You can use it very well for a Gardens rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Develop.jpg/200px-Develop.jpg) | #30 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 15.6% ▲5.5pp / Median: 9.7% ▲5.7pp / Standard Deviation: 19.1% ▼6.1pp Highest Value(s): 80.6% (1x), 77.4% (1x), 64.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (9x) Develop climbed up another rank as it switched places with Woodcutter. It gained a lot of points, but there seems still to be a lot of disagreement about its placement. It has 9 last ranks on one side, but on the other side some really high ranks in the upper third. A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can be put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are rare, but when it is one of those cases, Develop can be pretty good. It's good with good $5s and $7s like developing a Gold into a King's Court and a Wharf putting both on top of the deck. In the end of the game you want victory cards. Developing a Silver in an Estate and a Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty, so be sure to end the game this turn. So it often fails in being a good trasher, you have to see it as a gainer instead. That's something that makes it tricky to play. It's really good in engines with many power cards, but is otherwise often ignorable. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/50/Workshop.jpg/200px-Workshop.jpg) | #29 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 19.1% ▼1.6pp / Median: 16.1% ▼1.9pp / Standard Deviation: 14.7% ▼0.2pp Highest Value(s): 61.3% (1x), 60.0% (1x), 45.2% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.2% (4x), 0% (1x) And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come in this list. It lost one rank in comparism to last year. It got one last rank and two above average votes. You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck? With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you get at least a benefit and which isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer like Smithy. But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/95/Great_Hall.jpg/200px-Great_Hall.jpg) | #28 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 21.4% ▼8.6pp / Median: 22.6% ▼13.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.8% ▼0.9pp Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 58.1% (1x), 56.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.3% (2x), 3.2% (1x), 0% (1x) Great Hall went down one rank and lost a lot of points. It got last once and, wow, it even got first once. Beside that really big outlier, there were 2 more above average votes. Taking the unweighted ranking into account, it would have been one rank higher. There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's often a consolation prize over an Estate as it is 1 point that doesn't hurt your deck (as long as you don't draw it dead), so that's really nice. But it might even sort of hurt with Golem or Wandering Minstrel in your deck. You can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. And you often buy Estates in the end game, Estates you will may never see in your hand. In those cases it doesn't even matter if you pick up a Great Hall or an Estate. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/55/Fortune_Teller.jpg/200px-Fortune_Teller.jpg) | #27 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 23.1% ▲3.2pp / Median: 19.4% ▲3.4pp / Standard Deviation: 17.6% ▼1.6pp Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 64.0% (1x), 54.8% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x) Fortune Teller is one of the worst attacks in the game and the first attack of all lists so far. But it at least went up 2 ranks compared to last year. But it still has 4 votes for the last rank. Like said before it would have been one rank lower if we wouldn't weight this list. In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play twice or more in one turn. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/05/Smugglers.jpg/200px-Smugglers.jpg) | #26 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 27.5% ▼4.4pp / Median: 24.0% ▼8.0pp / Standard Deviation: 21.3% ▲1.2pp Highest Value(s): 80.6% (1x), 76.7% (1x), 71.0% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 3.2% (6x), 0% (1x) Smugglers stayed where it was, but lost a lot of points. It gained a little bit of consensus, but is still the card with the third highest deviation in this list. This shows the 8 above average votes. It is overrated by newer players because it would be one place higher in the unweighted ranking. Why this high deviation? First, its strenth depends of the board. Second, with Smugglers the luck factor is high. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and have a hard time getting better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy (especially with Duke) in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. King's Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/1/11/Loan.jpg/200px-Loan.jpg) | #25 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 28.8% ▼6.5pp / Median: 25.8% ▼10.2pp / Standard Deviation: 17.3% ▼0.1pp Highest Value(s): 64.5% (1x), 60.0% (1x), 58.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (4x) Loan lost a rank and even more points than Smugglers. Its Median dropped more than 10pp! Its deviation on the other side pretty much stayed the same. It was voted 10 times above average and 4 times last. Like said before, it would be even one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. You can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route early. And you don't need to trash a card from your hand, so you have still 4 cards in your hand you can play. Seems great so far, right? But this is also a problem: That involves a luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good power terminals at the same time). Also it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa. Masquerade / Loan is better than Masquerade / Silver on #63 of the best openings. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f7/Wishing_Well.jpg/200px-Wishing_Well.jpg) | #24 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 34.8% ▼2.2pp / Median: 32.3% ▼3.7pp / Standard Deviation: 18.0% ▼0.9 Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 71.0% (1x), 64.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.5% (2x), 0% (1x) We make a bigger gap of 6pp and come to the Medium level cards where 3 cards are very close together. The first one is Wishing Well. It lost even 2 ranks, but not so much points. It was voted 7 times above average and got one last rank. Wishing Well is both a high skill and a high luck-dependent card. How is that possible? First, it's a cantrip, so it rarely hurts. But if you don't guess correctly it does you no good and you rather buy a Silver. One problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But with cards like Apothecary or Cartographer it works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. In Colony games where you don't want to have many Silvers and especially when your money average is higher than $2, Wishing Well is a good choice. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. It's also a very good counter against Ghost Ship. Young Witch / Wishing Well is even better than Young Witch / Silver on #93 ▲27 of the best openings. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/a/a7/Trade_Route.jpg/200px-Trade_Route.jpg) | #23 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 34.9% ▼0.7pp / Median: 35.5% ▼0.5pp / Standard Deviation: 20.1% ▼3.6pp Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 80.0% (1x), 80.6% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 9.7% (3x), 4.0% (1x) There's a gap of only 0.1pp until the next card. Trade Route is on the same rank as last year and has also a similar rating. But it lost a lot of consensus. It has on one side 13 above average votes (one voted it even on the second place) and some really low votes. But it's the first card with no last place so far. In the unweighted ranking it would have been one rank higher. It's not a very good trasher as an opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game unless you're building an engine with low cost cards and you desperately need the trashing or the +buy. It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. The difference in strength through the game may be the reason for the disagreement in the votes. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Shanty_Town.jpg/200px-Shanty_Town.jpg) | #22 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 35.1% ▲1.6pp / Median: 32.3% ▲0.3pp / Standard Deviation: 17.1% ▼0.5pp Highest Value(s): 68.0% (2x), 67.7% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 12.9% (1x), 6.5% (2x) And there's the best card of the 3 ones that are clumped together. Only 0.2pp more and there's Shanty Town. It's 3 ranks better than last year, but has only a slightly better rating. It was voted 11 times above average with a lot of them in the 60% range. In the unweighted ranking it would be below Trade Route. Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually a Necropolis. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. And even if you play basically Big Money, Shanty Town serves like a Laboratory for you. |
Wishing well : it is a difficult card to use, so I somehow understand the ranking. I guess most people (like me) do not keep track of there deck...
Well, at the start you have a pretty uniform deck with 7 Coppers and 3 Estates, so you can guess right a pretty high percentage of the time. This way it functions like an early Shanty Town.
Wishing well : it is a difficult card to use, so I somehow understand the ranking. I guess most people (like me) do not keep track of there deck...
I am a sucker for Loan. Wishing Well works nicely with Scrying Pools. Wish for the lint if you have a Scrying Pool in hand, and wish for the Scrying Pool if you don't.
Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.
Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.
I agree on the Lookout part. You can only trash from 3 cards and late game you risk hitting something important.
Yeah, but I feel Dark Ages experience is lacking on a lot of players, including myself. it's hard enough to judge the DA cards, let alone re-judge the current cards based on DA.Trade route is grossly overrated. So is lookout. I'd put workshop higher, but I just really like the card. Loan is maybe a tad underrated.
I agree on the Lookout part. You can only trash from 3 cards and late game you risk hitting something important.
Lookout should have received a boost with Dark Ages. Having another action to spend after you drew the card (which you are too choose between the other two) for that Overgrown Estate or Rats is not bad at all. And you have a spare action to use Gravedigger if Lookout accidentally a Gold.
*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1Must have only played an Ironworks/Scout kind of board. :D
*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1
Don't get me wrong, it's good that people have different opinions and if the opinion is genuine I'm more than happy for it to be included in the rankings. But I think that anybody who is familiar enough with this forum to submit to the card rankings should have read enough random strategy threads, and absorbed enough through osmosis, to know that Great Hall is far from the best $3 card. This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy. I hope I'm wrong.
The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.
My only other complaint is that Smugglers is overrated, and should probably be closer to or even behind Workshop. The only time having a Smugglers is better than having a Workshop is when your opponent gains a $5 or $6 card that you actually want. If they gain a $0 to $4 card, you could have gotten it with Workshop while giving yourself more choice. Workshop is much better in divergent strategies and alt-VP. Not being able to choose which card to gain can really hurt, and too often Smugglers is a dead card.
The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.
The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.
Yeah. The luck factor is high, but if you're on the lucky side, Black Market is big. If you haven't watched my latest Tournament match, go and watch it. BM won me one game there. I never had a luckier BM before AFAIR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMBHwHZZ_9I
The next time they get to put in a vote, they choose almost the same cards at the same positions.
But this is inherent to voting for lists with previous results. In Holland we have an annual top 2000 best songs of all time list and every year the same song is at #1 (Queen - Bohemian Rhapsody).
This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy. I hope I'm wrong.
The problem with the consensus is that it keeps reasserting itself.
The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.The list so far is pretty close to my rankings, besides Wishing Well being much lower than I have it and Black Market being higher. I think Black Market is a lot closer to Woodcutter than people realize, being a card that allows you an extra buy that you might not even want.
I agree Black Market is usually not great, but when it's good it's amazing. Pulling an Early Mountebank or King's Court out can be devastating.
Yeah. The luck factor is high, but if you're on the lucky side, Black Market is big. If you haven't watched my latest Tournament match, go and watch it. BM won me one game there. I never had a luckier BM before AFAIR. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMBHwHZZ_9I
I think both of your reactions are a result of confirmation bias, where you're noticing the few, low-probability occasions when Black Market has high utility, and not taking into account enough all of the higher-probability, low-utility occasions. Sure, Black Market might win you a game every once in a while, but it's also quite possible that on average, playing Black Market on that board is worse than not playing it.
*lol* @ ranking Great Hall at #1Must have only played an Ironworks/Scout kind of board. :D
This makes me think that this ranking is more likely to be a joke or an attention-seeking ploy. I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not sure what comment you were refering to, but you're wrong. The lists are weighted because a new player or one who "only plays for fun in his family" obviously judges cards differently than the #1 from the leaderboard. But as I comment on every card what would change if it would be unweighted you see it wouldn't change that much because we got so much submissions so that a #1 Great Hall hasn't a weight just because of the number of submissions alone. It's the wisdom of the masses.
I just looked through the list of this player who ranked it first and I'm pretty sure that this was a serious vote.
He's just a newer player, but that's fine. He'll probably learns a lot of the results of this list.
Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.
I think I have a general agreement with the order given here. My biggest miss is probably fortune teller, which is criminally underrated still for reasons I don't understand. The attack hurts when played consistently. A lot. Now because it's terminal and doesn't offer +card (like rabble) it needs a good bit of support to play consistently, which is why it's probably sitting around the middle of the pack for me, but it's not bottom third.
Oh also to all the people saying shanty town should be higher. No. It's super terrible. As a village it's probably the worst one there is. Worse than native. You can sometimes make use of the +2 cards as an opener or a counter to something like ghost ship, but in general, it kills engines that any other village would enable.
Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.
Ranking the $3's I found hard because there aren't actually that many bad $3 cards. Other than the very best, most of them are the type of card which is going to be pretty useful sometimes, and not useful at all other times, but nothing (other than maybe chancellor?) in the counting house, sab extreme that you tend to see at the $5 level.
I think I have a general agreement with the order given here. My biggest miss is probably fortune teller, which is criminally underrated still for reasons I don't understand. The attack hurts when played consistently. A lot. Now because it's terminal and doesn't offer +card (like rabble) it needs a good bit of support to play consistently, which is why it's probably sitting around the middle of the pack for me, but it's not bottom third.
Oh also to all the people saying shanty town should be higher. No. It's super terrible. As a village it's probably the worst one there is. Worse than native. You can sometimes make use of the +2 cards as an opener or a counter to something like ghost ship, but in general, it kills engines that any other village would enable.
I definitely agree that there aren't many bad $3s- even the worst $3s can be quite useful.
Can't agree on Shanty Town though: I used to think it was super terrible, but then there was that experiment where I went Village/Torturer and HME went Shanty Town/Torturer... and guess what, Shanty Town/Torturer consistently crushed the vanilla Village approach. And you'd think Torturer would be a worst-case scenario for the Shanties, since terminal draw engines are most likely to leave you stuck with just the +2 Actions. But, no, the early pseudo-Lab is that useful. My perspective was changed rather drastically after that experiment.
I think I remember that discussion. Wasn't the conclusion that the best option was to open shanty for the lab, and then get regular villages after that?
OK, I'm exaggerating how bad shanty is, I think it's appropriately placed at 35% here, and you might argue me up a spot or two, but not more than that. It's still worse than vanilla village by a decent bit.
I think I remember that discussion. Wasn't the conclusion that the best option was to open shanty for the lab, and then get regular villages after that?
OK, I'm exaggerating how bad shanty is, I think it's appropriately placed at 35% here, and you might argue me up a spot or two, but not more than that. It's still worse than vanilla village by a decent bit.
Yeah, Shanty first then regular Villages would be best, but that experiment also proved, I think, that ST doesn't actually "kill engines" as much as one would expect. You can use it by its lonesome if you have to the majority of the time.
But, sure, it does work better in conjunction with other Villages, where you can get it first for the Lab effect and then mix other things in.
Shanty Town is definitely overrated IMO. It's one of those misfit cards where you see, "It's a Village! I'm doing an Engine! :)"
Then you realize that Shanty Town as an Engine enabler is virtually impossible. Throne Room alone is easier IMO.
This card has 3 distinct uses.
1.) You want an early lab for cycling that will probably not be a lab all game because of other more attractive terminals in your deck. This is probably the most common use.
2.) You are running an engine that already has Village support and hey, I guess I can use a Shanty Town for +2 Cards/+2 Actions. But if you already have an Engine that would benefit from Shanty Town Support, you probably don't even need it in the first place as your Engine is already functioning fine without it.
3.) There are simply no Terminal Actions on the board that are worth playing. But there are always* terminals worth playing if Terminals are present. This case is only relevant when every other card in the Kingdom has a +Action or +2 Actions associated with this. FYI, this never* happens either.
Simply put, Shanty Town belongs on the Island (Mat?) (Band?)of Misfit cards with the likes of Scout, Chancellor, Transmute, etc... due to each useful function being so dysfunctional for the reason of its use.
*Edge case me, I dare ya ;)
First time I've ever heard anyone say that.
7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.First time I've ever heard anyone say that.
It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)
7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.First time I've ever heard anyone say that.
It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)
Not sure if serious... but really, using it to trash Estates really sounds awful. You need to collide with the Estates, which is easy for the first, less so for the 2nd and I'd reckon you end up with at least 1 Estate left (and sometimes 2) more often than not. Getting a $3 on deck is nice each time, but that's still so marginal in value (like, it loses comfortably to BM in sims - although they don't play it perfectly by any means), so you better either have a good reason for wanting to trash Estates and/or the ability to collide it multiple times, or a good use for Develop after the opening.
Really, using it to trash Estates early is slow, it would really surprise me if you were right about that being the main use.
7.) Disregard this, I just like adding entries to lists.First time I've ever heard anyone say that.
It's what -Stef- uses Develop for most of the time, and certainly the guy at the top of the leaderboard can't be wrong... (It's also how I use it most of the time.)
Not sure if serious... but really, using it to trash Estates really sounds awful. You need to collide with the Estates, which is easy for the first, less so for the 2nd and I'd reckon you end up with at least 1 Estate left (and sometimes 2) more often than not. Getting a $3 on deck is nice each time, but that's still so marginal in value (like, it loses comfortably to BM in sims - although they don't play it perfectly by any means), so you better either have a good reason for wanting to trash Estates and/or the ability to collide it multiple times, or a good use for Develop after the opening.
Really, using it to trash Estates early is slow, it would really surprise me if you were right about that being the main use.
BTW, what do you guys think about that none of the new Dark Ages cards appeared so far?
BTW, what do you guys think about that none of the new Dark Ages cards appeared so far?
I'm surprised foarager has not appeared, I think it's pretty similar to loan. And market square isn't so hot either.
Are you trolling? Market square is fantastic. And forager has lots of applications too, as non-terminal +buy and trashing are fairly rare. I'd say it finds a frequent home in engines. And if there are alternate treasures, and/or incentives to trash treasure (remodel, contraband), look out, it just gets silly.
Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.
Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.
So Chapel becomes useless too after you trashed your starting cards. Does this makes it a bad card? I see what you mean but non-terminal trashing is very strong.
I think both of your reactions are a result of confirmation bias, where you're noticing the few, low-probability occasions when Black Market has high utility, and not taking into account enough all of the higher-probability, low-utility occasions. Sure, Black Market might win you a game every once in a while, but it's also quite possible that on average, playing Black Market on that board is worse than not playing it.
QuoteAre you trolling? Market square is fantastic. And forager has lots of applications too, as non-terminal +buy and trashing are fairly rare. I'd say it finds a frequent home in engines. And if there are alternate treasures, and/or incentives to trash treasure (remodel, contraband), look out, it just gets silly.
No I'm serious here. Market square is good in engines, but useless in Big money, slogs or rush strategies. And forager is usually used for trashing curses, estates or coppers right? For coppers it's just a +1 action, which is worse then loan. It provides money for curses and estates, but most of the time only $1. Loan can't be drawn dead, while this can. Forager will become useless after estates and coppers have been trashed, while loan will provide money still.
In my experience you buy only buy 1 Forager. You won't buy 2 Loans too, right?
It gives +buy which is very strong and is very similar to Spice Merchant which is either non-terminal or gives money. Forager has both, but hasn't the possibility to increase hand size.
Loan is strong, but the possibilty to skip over you power cards makes is to risky. You can compare it with Lookout too. Lookout doesn't give money and buy but leaves you with one card more in hand.
If you want Lookout, Forager or Loan is of course board-dependant, but I would rank Forager highest of these 3 cards.
5.) There is another village, but no good trashing, so the early game boost from Shanty Town will get your deck going quicker.
In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.
In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.
Maybe we can synthesize and say that Market Square is decent with Forager in hand. Or with other non-terminal trashers that allow me to use both the reaction and action part of the card.
Considering Hamlet was ranked #2 in the 2's mainly for it's +Buy, I'd say it's not unreasonable for MS to be an average ranked three, considering it has a very strong reaction and is much better as far as +Buy goes...Hamlet was not ranked at #2 mainly for its +buy :o
In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel), but even, I wouldn't rank it in this part of the list.
Forager, on the other side, is one of the best trashers of the game. I would say Forager > Steward > Loan > Lookout > Trade route.
Also, forager is AWESOME with draw to $X cards. Village + forager + watchtower gets to draw you 4 cards after you get the benefit of trashing. Even better if the village was squire or hamlet or fishing village.One other place that Forager shines is in double Tac, Minion, Conspirator, etc decks where you can really benefit from the non-terminal trashing AND the non-terminal $.
Trashing two is just really strong, especially with the added flexibility steward brings.
^"Much weaker than Chapel" doesn't necessarily mean bad...
In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),
In my experience, market square is pretty weak (much weaker than tunnel),
Of course MS is weaker than Tunnel, as trashers tend to have less search space than discarders, but consider that the Gold gain from MS is actually much stronger (in what I would say is a majority of cases) than the Gold gain from Tunnel, since with MS you're replacing a card with Gold, whereas with Tunnel, you're basically just gaining a Gold.
I feel like a key difference between Market Square and Tunnel is that MS triggers on something that you normally want to happen anyway. Sure, there are cards which make you want to discard stuff, but you almost always want to trash stuff. That and you generally want as many MSs as you can get, not quite the same with Tunnels.Indeed; discarding useless cards won't harm you, but trashing useless cards will benefit you. And MS cares about other useless cards being trashed while Tunnel itself is the useless card which has to be discarded.
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fa/Black_Market.jpg/200px-Black_Market.jpg) | #21 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 37.0% ▼3.2pp / Median: 36.0% ▼4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 22.7% ▼4.0pp Highest Value(s): 100.0% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 0% (3x) Here's your first promo which is on the same rank as last year. But it has a very high spread of ranks. It was voted 14 times above average, but on the other side 3 times last. This makes it the card with the highest deviation in this list. It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? On weak boards it might worth it or you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c6/Lookout.jpg/200px-Lookout.jpg) | #20 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 40.4% ▼4.6pp / Median: 36.7% ▼11.3pp / Standard Deviation: 20.6% ▼2.6pp Highest Value(s): 80.0% (1x), 76.0% (1x), 73.3% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 6.5% (1x), 0% (2x) And here's the next card with a high deviation. This is the last card with a last rank and it has even 2 of them. But it has also 16 above average votes. And it lost a lot of points with a big drop in Medium which led in a drop of one rank in comparism to last year. The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #44 ▲12 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? More and more players seem to rank it that low because of that fear. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/fc/Oasis.jpg/200px-Oasis.jpg) | #19 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 42.3% ▲0.3pp / Median: 45.0% ▲1.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▲2.0pp Highest Value(s): 74.2% (2x), 72.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.0% (1x), 10.0% (1x), 9.7% (1x) Oasis is one rank higher than last year. It has also significantly more agreement. It was voted 22 times above average. At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to many strategies, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible and is especially good on cursing boards or on boards with early greening. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is on the other side rarely a good buy. It synergizes well with "draw up to" cards, so it's no surprise that JaoT/Oasis on #111 ▲41 is a little bit better as opener than simply JaoT/Silver. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/70/Sage.jpg/200px-Sage.jpg) | #18 Sage (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 46.5% / Median: 48.4% / Standard Deviation: 20.3% Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (2x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x), 6.5% (1x) Here's the first Dark Ages card in this list. And they are all close together. Are the $3 Dark Ages cards hard to rank or are they simply mostly mediocre? Sage was voted 19 times above average and has like most Dark Ages cards in this list a high deviation. Sage is a great opener, especially with Marauder or Sea Hag where it helps to play the curser basically every turn and also skip over Curses/Ruins later in the game. It helps also to get other key cards like Potion or trashers in your hand that you want to have early. Don't fear to add Silver to your deck because it still helps you to cycle faster. Otherwise it often plays as a weak Scheme because you can't choose the card you want to have in your hand and it even may put a Province in your hand later in the game. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/b/b4/Storeroom.jpg/200px-Storeroom.jpg) | #17 Storeroom (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 51.6% / Standard Deviation: 20.4% Highest Value(s): 90.0% (1x), 83.9% (1x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 12.9% (1x), 9.7% (1x) Storeroom is the next Dark Ages card, the first one with an average above 50%. Storeroom is generally a weak card, but can shine in a handful of situations. It is more like an upgraded Secret Chamber, than an upgraded Cellar. Its discarding makes it one of the best Tunnel enablers, and it comboes well with Tactician, Scrying Pool and in draw-up-to-X engines or Menagerie. But it works especially well with important treasure cards. Almost every Potion cost card synergizes well with it and Storeroom+Philosopher's Stone might be the best one as it is similar to Herbalist+Philosopher's Stone. But the buy and cycling is also great with Fool's Gold, Quarry and decent with Ill-Gotten-Gains. It also guarantees to get to $4 for sure in games without discarding attacks which is great with Gardens. But in most other games this card isn't worth picking up. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Urchin.jpg/200px-Urchin.jpg) | #16 Urchin (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 51.0% / Median: 58.1% / Standard Deviation: 21.5% Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 87.1% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (2x), 12.9% (1x) Urchin has basically the same average as Storeroom, only 0.02pp are between those two cards. Urchin has a way higher Median and the second highest deviation in this list. In the unweighted list, it would have been 2 ranks higher, on #14. Urchin is a weak attack. It hurts rarely, only in really thin decks and is in the beginning at best a cantrip Cutpurse, but often worse because you have mostly an Estate/Shelter in hand. Its best use is to use its ability to convert into a Mercenary if you play 2 Urchins (or another second attack) in 1 turn. Mercenary itself is also very board dependant. It's very good in games without trashers and especially in junking games where you can pick up Urchin as second attack and trash the incoming junk. But you still have to trash to Mercenary to get its big benefit what makes it less useful in the late game. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/5/5a/Village.jpg/200px-Village.jpg) | #15 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 52.2% ▼0.2pp / Median: 48.4% ▼3.6pp / Standard Deviation: 13.6% ▲0.8% Highest Value(s): 87.1% (1x), 86.7% (1x), 83.9% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.0% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x) Village is one of the cards with the lowest deviation. It lost one rank comparing to last year, ignoring Dark Ages. It has only 4 votes in the lower third. Vanilla village is very hard to rank. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. It's no exciting card for sure, when there are all other engine components there you're glad to have it. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right? |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/9/97/Oracle.jpg/200px-Oracle.jpg) | #14 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 53.7% ▲2.9pp / Median: 51.6% ▲1.6pp / Standard Deviation: 18.5% ▲2.8pp Highest Value(s): 80.6% (2x), 77.4% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 16.1% (2x), 16.0% (1x), 12.0% (1x) It was one of the most undervalued cards for a long time and it went another rank up this year. It even gained a lot of consensus this year. In the unweighted ranking, it's 2 ranks lower. So maybe newer players still underestimate it. A 2 card-drawer with a spy-effect seems so innocent. But sometimes you even prefer it to Smithy which itself is a good $4 card. You can use it very well in Big Money games where the additional attack part comes handy. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - you do little damage with messing up the top cards. But discarding 2 cards to draw the next two helps cycling through your deck in the early game. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. And the luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he has in hand, but you don't know that. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck, which is good in Big Money. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e6/Forager.jpg/200px-Forager.jpg) | #13 Forager (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 56.8% / Median: 61.3% / Standard Deviation: 19.5% Highest Value(s): 90.3% (2x), 86.7% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 19.4% (1x), 12.9% (1x) Forager has 7 votes above 80%, but some low votes on the other side prevent it being in the upper third. Non-terminal trashers are always strong and Forager is the best out of the comparable Lookout and Loan in this list. It has also the important buy you often need for engines. It's also a weaker version of Spice Merchant as it both offers the buy and is non-terminal, but it lacks the draw what is the biggest drawback of this card as it decreases the handsize by one (Lookout and Loan don't do that). The variable bonus part makes it similar to Trade Route, but is non-terminal and gets more coins in the beginning what makes it a way better opening. This is also great with trashing attacks like Knights where Gold and Silver easily gets in the trash. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Tunnel.jpg/200px-Tunnel.jpg) | #12 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 58.8% ▼6.2pp / Median: 60.0% ▼6.0pp / Standard Deviation: 16.7% ▲1.2pp Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 92.0% (1x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 29.2% (1x), 25.8% (2x) Tunnel loses one rank in comparism to last year, but a lot of points. It was voted 14 times below average and it even got a first place once. Tunnels 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Embassy, Warehouse, Storeroom and such. Young Witch / Tunnel is currently the 76th ▼43 best opening. So Tunnel is one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnels can deplete, the Gold pile can too. But still it's very situational. If there's no action which can discard, Tunnel is nice in the late game if you miss $5, but no game changer. |
Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.
Not so bad, though I think Storeroom might be underrated.
Really? Storeroom might be really good in some situations, but I think it's a really weak card in general.
I think both Urchin and Storeroom are overrated, Sage a little bit overrated and Forager is underrated.
Can someone explain why urchin is this high?
Can someone explain why urchin is this high?
Can someone explain why urchin is this high?
Lookout is criminally low here. Non-terminal trashing is great, folks, and the fear of "having" to trash your good cards is way overblown.
Oracle rising and Tunnel falling to this level are both expected, and are both correct. But I probably wouldn't move either of them further.
I haven't played with it, but Urchin feels high to me- it looks like it's just not that useful on its own, and lining things up to get a Marauder is pretty kludgy.
I personally think Urchin is fair. A non-terminal attack like that really hurts a BM strategy, as it makes it much harder to hit Golds early, and then can also hurt for province buying later. I guess it's kind of like Cutpurse, and I think Cutpurse is pretty good.
About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.
About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.
You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...
About 95% of the time, Urchin makes me discard a green card. Rarely does it make me discard a copper or some other card that will add value to my turn. Urchin alone is practically a Pearl Diver without the top-decking ability.
You have a green card in your hand 95% of the time? That sounds like a lot...
I was exaggerating to make a point.
My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong. Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.
My question is where is Hermit. Okay, it is probably the best trasher ever when it comes to cursing. But, it isn't that great of a gainer, and it isn't good for trashing anything except as a defense against curses, and okay, ruins, but it is not like the other trashers which help make your deck thinner, aside from taking out your three starting estates. Don't get me wrong, I like Hermit and everything, but I am not sure it is top 10 worthy. I would rank Forager above it. Actually, I did rank Forager above it, but that is beside the point.
I haven't played with it THAT much, but from what I've seen, if there are cards costing <3 other than silver you want it is very very strong. Especially if you want $3 villages to build an engine, as then it is similar to a better remodel.
That's a good point. I am probably slightly undervaluing Hermit, but there are still many boards, I don't want it. Unlike Jack where I almost always want it because it is just that good...Unless, there is a strong engine on the board that can outrace Jack.
But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year
But I think the most underrated card is tunnel. I put it 1st this year (last year 3rd) and I stand by that. 2VP is simply amazing for $3. I don't know why on this forum there is a consensus to rank victory cards so low. After all, you win only by victory points... And a strategy involving tunnel creates a very nice point lead.
Ok, let's say you go for a strategy involving Tunnel and I don't. You need 7 tunnels to overcome a 5-3 province split. And most of the time if you get 7 tunnels, you won't get 3 provinces. So then it becomes, how many tunnels can you get, while still getting 4 provinces. And unless you have a really good way of discarding it (Ie. Embassy, Vault... that's about it. EDIT: And warehouse.) while still buying good cards, you will probably be slower to get to 4 provinces. So the other guy, if he needs to can simply buy a duchy or two.
Mercenary is a beast in games with no trashing.
Black market is probably overrated a little bit and do not forget that swindler is a lot weaker with dark ages (shelters, cultist, fortress, rats, etc).
I too think tunnel is bit low, not much though. The big thing about tunnel is simply the 2 VP for $3. That alone is a great VP-to-cost ratio (about between Duchy and Province), so even without the discard thing it would be a good card.
Now, the discard effect is a bit overrated in general and needs some support to be really strong, but as an add-on to an already more than decent victory card, it's more than just icing on the cake.
From my playing with urchin, I've found it a great pick up if you get a mid game 3 (or upgrade and estate or something). Many engines without trashing choke/fall flat after the first province or 2. A Mercenary in a functional engine ensures it will keep going and also that you'll be playing a militia every turn.
That being said, it requires another attack. (fantastic with sea hag or young witch battles) But it is rarely worth opening urchin. The opportunity cost is just too high.
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8e/Hermit.jpg/200px-Hermit.jpg) | #11 Hermit (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 60.5% / Median: 64.5% / Standard Deviation: 20.3% Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 90.3% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 22.6% (2x), 19.4% (1x), 16.1% (1x) The upper third starts with the next Dark Ages card. It has a high deviation like most of the Dark Ages cards in this list and has even a second rank. Hermit had 11 votes below average. Some call it already "Jack-of-all-Trades light". Trashing from your discard pile is great, especially in cursing games and therefore even better than JaoT's trashing ability. It can also gain Silver, but also more Hermits or whatever you want for $3 less, the gaining is therefore even more flexible. On the other side it cannot defend against discarding attacks or top-decking attacks like Jack can. But it can transform into a Madmen. a double-your-handsize village which is great on boards with +Buy and also not so great on boards with discarding attacks. So, alltogether it's a very versatile card. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/f/f1/Market_Square.jpg/200px-Market_Square.jpg) | #10 Market Square (Dark Ages) Weighted Average: 62.1% / Median: 67.7% / Standard Deviation: 18.4% Highest Value(s): 93.5% (2x), 87.1% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 32.3% (2x), 25.8% (1x), 20.0% (1x) And here's the best placed Dark Ages card and it has the lowest deviation of all Dark Ages cards in this list with only 4 votes in the lower third and 12 votes in the lower half. Market Square is 2 ranks above Tunnel, the other Gold gaining card costing $3. The Gold gaining is even easier to activate on average than with Tunnel and it's a cantrip, so it doesn't hurt if you don't draw it with a trashing card. Market Square + Masquerade is great because you can convert Coppers into Golds and you can still play Market Square for the cantrip +buy if you want to. Speaking of cantrip +Buy. On every board where you want +Buy, a cantrip +Buy alone is even reason enough gaining one Market Square. And Market Square is great as a defense against trashing attacks like Swindler or Knights. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/8d/Scheme.jpg/200px-Scheme.jpg) | #9 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 64.9% ▼3.5pp / Median: 64.5% ▼7.5pp / Standard Deviation: 14.0% ▲0.4pp Highest Value(s): 90.3% (1x), 88.0% (1x), 83.9% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 36.0% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 25.8% (1x) Scheme lost one rank to last year and also a decent amount of points. It was voted below average 9 times. Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card and you eliminate the possibility of colliding. As Double Ambassador is already a strong opening, on those boards you really want to open Ambassador/Scheme and you can later use the Scheme to top deck another card if you want to, so it's no surprise that Ambassador/Scheme is on #70 ▼27 of the best openings. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. Scrying Pool + Scheme is good, Golem + Scheme + strong attack is strong and King's Court + Scheme is just crazy. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy and you better buy a Silver. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/c/c2/Watchtower.jpg/200px-Watchtower.jpg) | #8 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 69.4% ▲10.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▲14.2pp / Standard Deviation: 14.9% ▲1.3pp Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 93.5% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 45.2% (1x), 44.0% (1x), 6.7% (1x) We're crossing a gap of nearly 5pp and there's Watchtower, this year's winner. It only went up 2 ranks, but is over 10pp better than last year. It even gained consensus and has only 4 votes below average with one big outlier. In the unweighted ranking it would even be one rank higher. Watchtower is the best of the 3 Reaction cards close together. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Fishing Village, Festival or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part from the second Watchtower for the card you buy. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. And now with Dark Ages it got a big boost. With a gainer you can trigger all the on-trash effects on gain. This allows crazy stuff like playing a Goons and a Familiar turn 3 with Squire or gain a Fortress with Workshop and put it directly into your hand or remodel into a Cultist just to trash it and draw 3 cards. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/6/6d/Warehouse.jpg/200px-Warehouse.jpg) | #7 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 70.8% ▼5.5pp / Median: 74.2% ▼1.8pp / Standard Deviation: 17.0% ▼8.6pp Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.0% (1x), 92.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 38.7% (1x), 29.0% (1x), 6.5% (1x) Warehouse is on the same rank as last year, but lost a lot of points. But it even lost more consensus with some big outliers in the lower range. It was voted 6 times below average and would be one rank lower in the unweighted ranking. Warehouse is the better Cellar, it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack (Sea Hag / Warehouse is better than Sea Hag / Silver on #102 ▼4) as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. It's also great if you want cards together that gain strength when they collide, like Fool's Gold or Treasure Map. Because you have one card less in hand after you played it, it synergizes with "draw up to" cards (JaoT/Warehouse is better than JaoT/Silver on #82 ▲44) And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). It loses power on boards with discard attacks, but with cursing attacks it's great. It's a great addition to any deck which isn't a terminal draw Big Money deck. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/8/88/Steward.jpg/200px-Steward.jpg) | #6 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 79.5% ▲1.1pp / Median: 83.9% ▲3.9pp / Standard Deviation: 15.3% ▼5.4pp Highest Value(s): 96.8% (1x), 93.5% (1x), 90.3% (5x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.0% (1x), 19.4% (1x) Now we're making a big jump of over 8pp to the top cards. Steward lost a rank, but still has a higher ranking than last time. Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy" (even though it's the opening buy) Tournament / Steward is currently the best Steward opening at #39 ▲1. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/e/e7/Swindler.jpg/200px-Swindler.jpg) | #5 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 80.9% ▲2.9pp / Median: 84.0% ▲4.0pp / Standard Deviation: 15.7% ▼2.1pp Highest Value(s): 100% (1x), 96.8% (3x) / Lowest Value(s): 35.5% (1x), 32.3% (1x), 16.7% (1x) Swindler is one rank higher than last year and now in the Top 5. It was voted on the first rank once and on the other side 3 times below average. Swindler is the third $3 Attack and this time it is a good one. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses (Swindler + Chapel is around #81 and Tournament + Swindler on #109). Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. But it's highly luck-dependant. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! With Dark Ages, Swindler is even more luck-dependant, hitting an Overgrown Estate let your opponent draw a card and trash it without replacement. Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/71/Menagerie.jpg/200px-Menagerie.jpg) | #4 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 85.8% ▲2.5pp / Median: 87.1% ▲3.1pp / Standard Deviation: 8.8% ▲2.6pp Highest Value(s): 96.8% (2x), 96.0% (1x) / Lowest Value(s): 64.0% (2x), 58.1% (1x), 54.8% (1x) Menagerie is the last card in this list that didn't have a first rank. But it has a better rating than last year and much more agreement. It has the third lost deviation in this list. It is also the first card with no rank below average. Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it only hurts when you draw it dead, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing (to get rid of your Coppers) to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. You definitely need luck to enable it, but you get different cards so fast and if you get rid of your Coppers, that's often the case. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/3/3b/Fishing_Village.jpg/200px-Fishing_Village.jpg) | #3 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 92.2% ▲1.1pp / Median: 93.5% ▲1.5pp / Standard Deviation: 8.3% ▼2.1pp Highest Value(s): 100% (4x) / Lowest Value(s): 83.9% (1x), 71.0% (1x), 41.9% (1x) We're in the Top 3 and there's the next bigger gap of over 6pp. Fishing Village has a better rating than last year, but lost consensus. Still it's the card with the lowest deviation in this list. It has one big outlier in the lower half. What makes Fishing Village a good village, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM, because then you have basically a Lighthouse if you don't use the +Actions. Fishing Village / Masquerade is currently the best opening on #62 ▼7. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/0/0e/Masquerade.jpg/200px-Masquerade.jpg) | #2 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 93.9% ▼1.3pp / Median: 96.7% ▲0.7pp / Standard Deviation: 9.9% ▼5.1pp Highest Value(s): 100% (9x) / Lowest Value(s): 76.0% (2x), 64.5% (1x), 38.7% (1x) Masquerade is another time on the second rank. And it lost a little bit in points, but especially it lost in consensus. With 9 votes on the first rank, there's no doubt on its strength. At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, most of the times it feels like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. It dominates nearly all games; it's great for simple Big Money and it's great in engines too and it's a defense against cursing what do you want more? And Tournament / Masquerade is #8 =0 in the best openings list. |
| (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/thumb/7/74/Ambassador.jpg/200px-Ambassador.jpg) | #1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 97.5% =0 / Median: 100% =0 / Standard Deviation: 10.2% ▼4.6pp Highest Value(s): 100% (37x) / Lowest Value(s): 68.0% (1x), 54.8% (1x), 51.6% (1x) Ambassador is the #1 and it has even the same points as last year. It was voted first by so many that there is not much doubt. Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador is #2 ▲1, Caravan / Ambassador is #7 =0 and Spice Merchant / Ambassador #20 ▼2 in the openings list with many other good Ambassador openings to come (Double-Ambassador is #48 ▲13 and the best double opening). |
I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.
Dark Ages Shelters I think will really shake this section up in particular when we have more experience with it. Ambassador will drop a little - it's massively weaker in Shelter games which will make up about, uh... about 16.5% when playing pure random (given Ambassador is in the game). Meanwhile Masq probably gets a little better if anything - Necropolis makes terminals generally a touch better, especially cheap ones, and Overgrown Estate is nice to trash. Similarly Menargerie with Shelters, suddenly all you need is some copper trashing, and they become a little more reliable. Not huge, but eh.
I still think Market Square is likely to move down this list as people get more experience with it. It just seems, so often when it's on the board I can easily activate it for a wad of Golds. It's just so much more reliable than Tunnel. And cantrip +buy is a lot better early than 2 VPs - in games with 'dead' tunnels I rarely see more than 1-2 get bought during greening, just because you usually go mostly for Duchies and better.
Scheme I'm really not so sure on. I think I underrated it horrifically, but 9th? I dunno, it does seem a bit weaker than the other cards here. And I really like Scheme.
Wow yeah Dark Ages is doing wonderful things for Menagerie, with Shelters, Ruins, Knights, Spoils, even Hermit/Madman and Urchin/Mecenary.
I'd say that menagerie is a bit high; it's never been super awesome in my experience, even in a game I just played with hamlet on the board.
There are few things in Dominion better than activating37 or more Menageries in a row.
Having played a fair amount of DA games, while Ambassador is no longer the power opener it once was in Shelter games, Ambassador is still the best 3, no question about it. For the most part, the list seems good, but I would put Market square slightly above, perhaps just ahead of Scheme. It is so much easier to activate than Tunnel, and it is more useful than Tunnel. Tunnel is a dead card until the end game. Market Square at worst is a cantrip, and at best you put its +Buy to use. Two days ago, I played this insane Market Square Engine. The board had Chapel, Watchtower, Market Square, Worker's Village and Wharf. Every turn, I would buy Wharves and WV and then use the spare buys to buy curses which I would turn trash with Watchtower to activate the Market Squares and top deck the golds. Sadly, my opponent resigned fairly quick. I had a feeling with the engine I built that I woudl have stood a good chance of being able to piledrive all three green piles. That would have been epic.
IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.
IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.
IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.
2VP is not "great" for a card costing anything... How often is 2VP going to make more of a difference than having an actually strong card in your deck? Think about it, the 1VP Estates you have in your deck for free, you try to get rid of as fast as possible, and basically never buy for $2. Making it 2VP instead of 1 doesn't all of a sudden make it great... Even 3VP Duchies you pass on in favor of $3-4 cards a lot of the time.
IMO people tend to forget that Tunnel gives you 2VP which is great for a card costing $3. So it's not all about triggering Tunnel's Reaction.
2VP is not "great" for a card costing anything... How often is 2VP going to make more of a difference than having an actually strong card in your deck? Think about it, the 1VP Estates you have in your deck for free, you try to get rid of as fast as possible, and basically never buy for $2. Making it 2VP instead of 1 doesn't all of a sudden make it great... Even 3VP Duchies you pass on in favor of $3-4 cards a lot of the time.
Yes but I think thats where the reaction part matters. 2VP for 3 is great, but you won't buy it anyway. But if you can use this "dead" cards to do something, it's really good. Because sometimes you can just spam tunnels and discarder and even if the combo does't net you much golds, you still have about 10 victory points.
Market Square is great because it isn't dead when you can't activate (but not often you want to buy market square when you can't activate it enough, so that benefit is maybe less important than most think of), but when youre able to activate it, you have to discard it, as you do with tunnel. But tunnel don't lose its benefit, the 2 VP, when it's triggered.
And when you'd ever want five Tunnels, other than trying to run out piles, is beyond me...
And when you'd ever want five Tunnels, other than trying to run out piles, is beyond me...
Silk road?
I'm trying to think of other cases, like IGG, but that involves piles running out. There are perhaps other corner cases where the game will end VERY soon, and you have lots of buys, so with 9 and 3 buys, I could see buying 3 tunnels in the case you don't want a province.
I agree with you 2VP is WAY worse than being able to cantrip in general. At the same time I like thinking of counter examples.
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.
Sorry but 2VP for 3$ IS great. I know you wouldn't buy a 2VP simple victory card early in the game, but at the end of the game you will.Nobles is massable. Tunnel is not. If your opponent(s) ignore(s) Nobles, you can buy them all. But Tunnel you don't want to do that.
And saying 2VP is negligible is absolutely false. Would you buy a noble without the victory points ?
In games with no tunnel enabler, you will still often pick up one late tunnel when you don't have enough for a duchy.I don't think this actually makes a meaningful difference that often at all. Sure you take 2 points, but how often does that result in you winning by 1 point (which is the difference from Estate)?
And in games with tunnel enabler, usually the strategy is so good that you can get the 4-4 province split easily, and that's where tunnel is a beast (also, there are a few strategies involving more than 3 tunnels, tactician + tunnels is not so bad for instance...).I guess this is the main point to argue about. I don't think it's this good "usually". There are a few strong combos, but it's going to be useful much less often than the 3s above it (an a reasonable number of those below it), in my opinion.
I have the same opinion on island : the action part makes it a pretty good card to purchase during the game, and you have thus a non-negligible point lead in all games with 4-4 province split, and when you don't want the action, you'll take it for VP later.Island is another beast entirely. Island doesn't waste deck space. It actually saves deck space. It's is essentially 2VP in -1 cards after you play it once, which, in the right situation, can be very useful.
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.
If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.
If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.
Is this the right interpretation? It makes sense, since there is no "shelters" pile to return things to, but who is to say that there isn't an ever-present, non-supply, perpetually-empty pile of shelters waiting for yours to be returned?
What is the verdict on Ambassadoring other non-supply cards, which do have piles? Prizes, Spoils, Madmen (Madmans?), Mercenaries, etc?
That's true enough for Tunnels, but the same goes for Market Square. You don't really want to buy all that many of them in most cases. I've had my share of games where I've overdone the Market Squares. You think they can't hurt since they're cantrips, but even beyond opportunity cost, they are not functioning as cantrips if you chuck them for Gold every hand.
Maybe it's slightly weaker in shelter games since you can't get those turns where you return 2 Estates,
You can't even get those turns where you return ONE Estate(or Shelter), because you can't return them at all. I think the plus from Necropolis is outweighed by being stuck with the other two.
Oh I thought you just can't give them out. If you reveal a non-supply card, what happens to it? Anyway, even so, you still have the sustained attack portion of the card, which is really the strong part, moreso than the pseudo-trashing really, imo.
If you reveal a Shelter, it stays in your hand because it has no supply pile to return to. So, Necropolis does not help Ambassador since being able to return estates is much more potent than being able to return coppers.
Is this the right interpretation? It makes sense, since there is no "shelters" pile to return things to, but who is to say that there isn't an ever-present, non-supply, perpetually-empty pile of shelters waiting for yours to be returned?
What is the verdict on Ambassadoring other non-supply cards, which do have piles? Prizes, Spoils, Madmen (Madmans?), Mercenaries, etc?
I actually played a game where I bought Market Square solely for the +Buy. So, I would have to say it superior to Tunnel. I wouldn't buy a Tunnel solely for the VP unless it was mighty close to the end game.
I actually played a game where I bought Market Square solely for the +Buy. So, I would have to say it superior to Tunnel. I wouldn't buy a Tunnel solely for the VP unless it was mighty close to the end game.
Well, keep in mind that while you don't need the additional buys in every game, every game does have a period that's "mighty close to the end game".
i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher. you can trash a card with only 1 card disadvantage in the current turn and it even improves your next turn. i'd rank it in top 3, maybe at #1. it totally beats ambassador.
you can even open with 2 lookouts.
how is it so low?
i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher. you can trash a card with only 1 card disadvantage in the current turn and it even improves your next turn. i'd rank it in top 3, maybe at #1. it totally beats ambassador.
you can even open with 2 lookouts.
how is it so low?
Give me some examples of kingdoms where you'd rather open Lookout than Ambassador, and I'll give you a hundred for each one where I'd rather open Ambassador than Lookout*.i don't think i'd buy ambassador ever if there was a lookout. lookout is just so much better, because if you play ambassador, your turn is usually useless. you have a 3 card disadvantage, which means that you only have 2 left and mostly you dont care about getting $2 cards. lookout hurts much less and the fact that your next turn gets better almost makes up for it.
Lookout is somewhat random, which makes it get progressively worse beyond the earlygame, as it becomes harder to hit your bad cards with it, and more risky as you might hit only good cards.sometimes, yes. but more often, you can play it risk free. because if your deck is shitty there is almost guaranteed at least one bad card within 3 random ones. and if your deck is good it mostly means that you have a nice engine and then you can play it really late when you know which cards are left to draw. and if there's a laboratory within the last 3 cards you can even prepare for the next turn and make it less likely that your engine falls flat
. On top of that, trashing one card is not that huge. Trashing is nice, but not amazing, and the fact it trashes from deck (allowing you to continue buying cards) is marred by how slow it is at trashing. On the other hand Ambassador thins you deck notably faster than Lookout doesand ambassador is a terminal and it completely ruins every turn you play it in. and a lot of times you draw it with like 3 coppers and one estate and then you have to decide wether to return 2 coppers or just one estate. if you chose the estate, you get -1 dead card and your opponent gets +1 dead card, which is nice, but your oponent will easily get rid of it with lookout, so it's not that big a deal. and if you use it on copper it means that your turn is compeltely scrwed over because you don't have any treasures left. and note that, if you play ambassador vs lookout, soon you'll be out of estates and have to use it on coppers while your enemy can comfortably trash with lookout without ruining his turns.
On top of that, Ambassador continues to be useful, being usable as a psuedo-curser, throwing out coppers, estates or of course, even curses, right through the mid and often late game, and offers other interesting pile-depletion options and other things right up to endgame, while Lookout becomes a completely dead card.i completely disagree, i think lookout scales better, because of the reasons i desrcibed above.
Finally, Doctor > Lookout for deck thinning, I'd say, in my limited experience. And you can open with two of ANY $3 card, so that's not really a point worth noting...
try opening with 2 ambassadors.Go take SCSN's offer and you'll see what a double ambassador opening can do.
try opening with 2 ambassadors.Go take SCSN's offer and you'll see what a double ambassador opening can do.
Come to Outpost and we'll play a bunch of games where you open double Lookout and I open double Amb. I'd be surprised if it would take more than two games to convince you that Amb is vastly superior.sure, why not. i'm probably wrong, given that everyone seems to be so sure, but it'll be interesting
P.S. even putting value on being able to buy something on the turn you trash, I don't see why you would rank Lookout at the top. Forager is the easy comparison here. The main difference is that Lookout trashes from the deck whereas Forager trashes from the hand, and Forager provides coin and +Buy. Forager wins here -- the money that it provides is worth at least as much as the extra card you would have in hand with Lookout (due to not having trashed from hand). But Forager is less risky and it provides +Buy which can be very handy. Pretty much the only thing that Lookout has over Forager is slightly increased cycling.
i... don't get it. lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher.
It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games...
...which is no argument whatsoever.
...which is no argument whatsoever.
Data and science are not arguments?
Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.
I don't care about that.
...which is no argument whatsoever.
Data and science are not arguments?
Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.
Okay. So. You open with a lookout. I open with an ambassador. You play your lookout, trashing a card. I play ambassador, getting rid of two cards and giving you one.
Your deck did not get any smaller! You still have the same amount of junk! If we continue to play lookouts and ambassadors with equal frequency (not hard to do even though ambassador is terminal) you will never successfully trash your estates and coppers since I will keep giving you new ones! This is bad for you, and as such the majority of the time ambassador is superior to lookout.
But you're like, wait man, I opened DOUBLE Lookout! I'm trashin' two card a shuffle now! So, maybe I open Ambassador/Lookout, and I get rid of three cards to your one. You are going to lose.
And then, you're still not done arguing of course, so you say, whoa man, you might be trashin' super fast, but I'm building my deck way faster than you since I get to keep my full hand!
Except, honestly, if you open double lookout, your hand is going to be pretty crappy, averaging 2.33 coins per turn. Which, as you said, isn't very good since often the two dollar cards aren't very important anyway.
Tbh, I think in both cases Amb/Amb wasn't the best opening. Probably would have gotten my second Amb on t3/4 in both cases. But Lookout had the same issues, I don't know that lookout/lookout was the best lookout play? But I certainly know amb better than I know lookout.
I think it definitely illustrates why the Amb was better. Early-game things were pretty even, but the ambassador was just a little faster at trashing and then turned into a potent attack, keeping silverspawn from ever getting their deck thin enough given the weak draw (ghost ship, haven, followers, trusty steed being the only way to increase handsize).
Second game. Again, I think the conclusions are similar. Despite being hit by Mountebank, SCSN got rid of their starting cards faster. With both Mountebank and Ambassador, the game was super-slow, but at turn 17 scsn had three coppers and one curse in their deck. At that point, silverspawn had 7 coppers and 4 curses - this despite SCSN not having a mountebank yet. At the end of the game silverspawn had 11 coppers and 6 curses, whereas scsn had just 1 copper.
the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.
the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.
You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Ambassador
http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Lookout
Kids these days, always needing to have things done for them...
Amb had 6 openings at +5 or greater. Lookout had 1. If we extend the threshold to +4 or greater, Amb had 21 while Lookout had 3.
In the meantime, two new expansions got released, but there's still no way that Lookout is better than Amb on most boards.
i don't think you read my very detailed explanation as to why these sorts of arguments are invalid. i wont write the same WoT again, so you may look it up on the page prior.
meh, that is paper thin argumentation again. what if you open with dual ambassador, i open with dual lookout, we both draw both our action cards with 3 coppers. i can get rid of 2 of my 3 estates in the turn, buy a silver or a third lookout and have all the new cards come again super quickly, because lookouts shorten the repeat cycle. you, on the other hand, just get rid of 2 coppers, give me one copper, and can't buy anything and your next turn will be just as bad because there are 3 estates left to draw
the way i would approach it is different. i'd try to figure out the amount of trashing per damage done, let's call it p/x. p can simply defined as difference of bad cards in both players decks, where as x would be the amount of damage that the turn in which you play it suffers. for lookout we can give it 1p/1x.
now let's try it for ambassador. i can give it 2,5p, because you get rid of 1-2 bad cards and your enemy gains 1 bad card. the amount of x has to be the estimated amount of damage compared to the one of lookout.
and that is really high. because once you got rid of your estates, you will have to return copper, which, if you don't want $2 cards, makes your turn completely useless. so i could give it somewhere between 2, while there are estates, and somewhere at 4, if it makes your turn useless. so that would be ~2,5/3,2. according to that, lookout is better. now obviously, you need about twice as many lookouts then ambassadors to make that work, but since you have more money in very early turns, you can get them. very early $3 instead of $2 is enough to have one additional lookout for the rest of the game.
now, obviously, this doesn't proof anything, it's just my line of thinking if i try to go onto the subject analyitcally. but also, what if there are shelters? what if there are no +action cards (exept necropolis)? lookout always works, and in the statistic there are dark ages cards, so those cases have to be taken into consideration. it's about how often we would almost never buy it and i would never buy ambassador if there are shelters, and very rarely without proper action setups.
...which is no argument whatsoever.
Data and science are not arguments?
Actually, no, you're right. They aren't arguments; they're facts.
now you are really messing up defininitions. to resolve this dispute without accessing in petty arguments i have to elaborate really far. the problem here is that dominion, similiar to a lot of games present in esport, is an incredibly complex game which noone (that includes professional gamers (if there are any) and creators) can fully grasp. that means that, unless two cards can be compared in a very narrow scale (like village vs worker village) you can't ever reach a final conclusion. the game is played by humans whose valuations are very much flawed, f.e. a lot of newer players wouldn't think that the chapel is as strong as we currently belief that it is. this means that "most people think..." doesn't work, so you have to narrow it down to the high skill level.
unfortunately, opinions on high level gaming is defined by the so called metagame. i dont know if that term is common for dominion, but it can be used the same way. the metagame is the common belief about how the game should be played. such a thing exists because high level players don't play isolated but share their knowledge and opinions on places like this. the problem is, dominion is way too young to have it's metagame static, and because the kingdoms are different every time it's also extremely complex and dynamic even in comparison to a lot of RTS games. if there wouldn't be any new extensions for, let's say, 5 years, a lot of things would change, some cards would gain a lot of popularity and some cards would lose some, until the point is reached where we discover what is actually strong. that point is far off.
one of this cards could be lookout. this means that these kinds of arguments never prove anything, and more specifically "data and science" is confusing, because we don't have any data about perfectly played games, we only have data of players playing in a specific metagame - the current metagame.
again, all of this doesn't mean that i'm right. but these kinds of arguments "general opinion", "statstics" or "winrates of cards" aren't valid to disproof quality judgements about cards. they can be used to make statements about probability, but you can never proof anything. if you could, i wouldn't even have stated that i think lookout is underrated in the first place. the very term "underrated" only makes sense because common belief is not a universal truth.
Your "very detailed explanation" is nothing but nonsense.
...play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently...
Silverspawn, you're right that the fact that many people believe a thing to be true does not make it true.Adding to this, you even admit that SCSN is a better player than you, doesn't that help prove that Amb is better when players better than you say it is?
But, look, there's several objective ways to tell whether one is better than other. The first being, play games with both--you will come around to our way of thinking. Okay, you are dismissing that. Well, there is an objective measure of who is the best at Dominion: it's called the Goko leaderboard. People like WanderingWinder (who designed this card ranking), Andrew Iannacone, Stef, MicQsenoch, ScheCantSayNo, Rabid, ednever, and Obi Wan Bonogi are currently floating around in there in the top 10 or 20 or so. These are the people who win more games than anyone else. These people were also at the top of the Isotropic rankings when that was a thing, so this is no accident--these are actually the best online Dominion players. Objectively, they win the most games.
I am confident that every single one of these people will tell you that Ambassador is a much better card than Lookout.
the order was reversed, the mountebank game was the first. but SCSN actually got lucky with mountebank, he only got hit like 1 of 3 times and he also drew better in the first 2 turns. also, i went for potions, which was just bad decision making. that's why i think the other game is more significant, becuase here we had similiar luck and went for similar strategies. and that game was incredibly close, both of our decks were small and the game snowballed once he got followers, and i actually bought the province earlier then him but drew it later.
You may think it's "luck", but the deck contents has something to do with it. You got your Province a turn earlier, but you got it in a deck of 18 cards, of which 11 don't draw. He got his in a deck with only 14 cards, including only 5 which didn't draw. He was practically guaranteed to line up the Province right away, while you would have had to be lucky to do so.
fair enough. but i also could've had the province several turns earlier with a little bit of luck. and again, he has a 6,5k rating (and 4* as many games as me), i used to have a 6k rating, then stopped playing and now have 5,5k rating. that's a gigantic difference. he is a lot better at the game, so i probably did a lot more mistakes executing the dual lookouts than he did executing his dual amb.
but analysing our game is definitely a legit way to go. i would have to go over the second game in detail to determain how much of it is superior skill and how much of it is superior strength of ambassador
But billions of people aren't experts in philosophy or politics. People here saying that Ambassador is superior to Lookout are experts in Dominion. There's a difference.It is the generally agreement of dozens of players with a combined hundred thousand plus games...
...which is no argument whatsoever. it's also a general agreement of billions of people that there is a god and that democracy is the superior form of goverment and i disagree with both of those statements, and so do millions of others.
but i just compared it to ambassador because he's #1. the actual joke is that even steward is higher than lookout which makes no fucking sense whatsoever.
we actually played 2 games with double amb vs dual lookout and both of them very incredibly close early game and both of them he eventually won, but he's just better at this game, so it doesn't disproof or proof anything
all of that doesn't mean that ambassador isn't in fact better, but i still don't see it and what you wrote here doesn't exactly help making me believe anything.
..how is Lookout supposed to thin the deck with the junk being passed by Ambassador? ...
Lookout also isn't vulnerable to Possession, so yep its better ;).
Well, at least we've made Silverspawn feel welcome. ;)
FYI, Silverspawn this is just how we do business here. Welcome to the forums and congrats on stimulating your first strategy discussion. :D
also, a part of what makes discussions interesting is the possibility of being proven wrong which was not going to happen.
When your argument tries to rest on "Hey, you can't prove anything, therefore everything is relative, therefore I might be right," then your rhetoric is severely flawed.
so you may all consider the ratings a universal truth or whatever, i'll mb come back when i hit 6,5k+ rating