Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: jotheonah on January 04, 2013, 07:03:53 pm
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IN LIST:
1. ashersky Station Maquis Cop Lt. Cmmdr. Worf
2. Robz888 Mirror Universe-aligned 1-shot Commuter Kasidy Yates
3. yuma Maquis 1-shot Busdriver OR 1-shot Lightning Rod Garak
4. Eevee Station 1-shot Vigilante Major Kira Nerys
5. Shraeye Station Innocent Child Jake Sisko
6. Cuzz Station Changeling Cop Dr. Julian Bashir
7. Glooble Maquis 1-shot Roleblocker Captain Benjamin Sisko
8. Raerae Station Neighbor Quark
9. liopoil Station Neighbor Rom
10. mcmcsalot Mirror Universe Bomb General Martok
11. Jimmmmm Station 1-shot Doctor and Beloved Princess Vedek Bariel Antos
12. theorel Station Mirror Universe Cop Chief Miles O'Brien
13. sparky5856 TheMunch Maquis Neighbor Nog
14. Dsell Station 1-shot Deathproof Lt. Ezri Dax
15. Galzria Mirror Universe Rolecop Constable Odo
The game is for 15 players, and the setup is semi-open.
You're on Deep Space Nine, just before the start of the Dominion War. At a busy port on the wild frontier of space, it's hard to keep track of all the comings and goings. Despite Odo's best efforts, a string of sabotages on the station have made it clear that someone on board is not what they seem to be.
It's possible that some crewmembers have secretly defected and joined the Maquis, a terrorist group within the Federation. It's also possible that a few crewmembers have been replaced by their mirror universe duplicates - you'd never know the difference if they shaved their goatee. And of course, there's the constant threat of changeling infiltration, though they wouldn't bother with a team. No if there's a changeling aboard he's a solitary serial killer.
Well, this won't do at all. Captain Sisko will take some crewmembers and trusted civilians off their regular duties and assigne them to investigate for the various threats.
Non-flavored information:
- The setup will either have two scum teams or one scum team and one serial killer. You won't know which.
- Either way, there will be three alignment cops: a Maquis cop, a Mirror Universe cop, and a changeling cop. These three will be guaranteed NOT the alignment they investigate for - but not guaranteed town.
- Everyone else will have a small role - either an X-shot version of a power role or a role of marginal or even negative utility.
- These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum, exception being of course the cops, and the IC-variant if there is one.
- There will be only one version of each character in game. So if there's a Mirror Universe Bashir, there won't also be a Changeling Bashir or a Bashir prime.
- No roles considered to be bastard. I am deciding whether or not I'll post a list of possible roles. I could probably be persuaded to do so.
Quick primer on Deep Space Nine:
It's the third Star Trek series, and the only one to be set on a space station rather than a ship. As such, it has a much richer tapestry of ongoing plotlines than other Star Treks, starting with the discovery of the galaxy's first stable wormhole (which is also home to non-linear time aliens who some characters worship as Gods) to a full on war with aliens from the other side of the wormhole that lasts the last 3 seasons of the show.
The Maquis are dissatisfied members of the Federation (the intergalactic alliance Earth is part of in the 24th century). When Starfleet officers defect to the Maquis on the show, they tend to do it secretly at first, using their rank and position to steal something to help the resistance. So a nice mafia flavor hook.
The Mirror Universe is a ridiculous Star Trek concept - an alternate reality where good people are evil and evil people are good. It started out in the original series, but DS9 did about one mirror universe episode per season.
Changelings are the big bosses of the Dominion, the bad guys in the war. Odo, the station's security chief, is a changeling, but he was raised in the alpha quadrant and he's loyal to the good guys. They can shape shift into animals, other people, inatimate objects, you name it. In the show, the Dominion replaces people with changeling operatives in order to destabilize the alpha quadrant and get them to weaken each other before launching an all out attack.
Knowing more about the show than that will help you make guesses about people's roles if you know their character. But even all that is more than you need to know for a mafia game.
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Mafia Ruleset (blatantly stolen from Axxle)
Game Rules:
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it. Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to me by the posted deadline. If I do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mod know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
6. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 48 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
5. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
6. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
7. This game will have 2 week lynch deadlines and 48-hour night deadlines, extended at my discretion for weekends and holidays. If a player or No Lynch does not have a simple majority at deadline, no lynch will occur, and the game will go into night.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, blue text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mod privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mod may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mod so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Helpful Links:
- Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
- Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
- Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
- Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
- Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
[/quote]
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Admiral Ross called Captain Sisko into his office.
"Ben, these security lapses are unacceptable. In the past year, you've had crewmembers defect to the Maquis, crossovers from the Mirror Universe, and at least one changeling infiltration. This outpost is too important to risk security breaches like this. I want this station secured within the week. Any more breaches, and Starfleet may consider replacing Odo with a Starfleet officer, or even replacing you. Understood?"
"Understood, sir."
Captain Sisko called his staff into the wardroom.
"Blood tests, scans, investigations. We'll do whatever it takes to secure the station."
"I'll start with Quark," said Odo.
"You really think he's involved?" asked Dr. Bashir.
Odo looked surprised. "I always start with Quark."
Day 1 has begun. With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
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First! And I sure as hell claim town!
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Aaaaand, here we go again.
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First! And I sure as hell claim town!
;D (Previous comment was in to the game in general, not to you. :P)
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Hey all. What kind of RVS are we up for here? "Joke" claims? Self votes? The classic Robz Voting Stage?
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First! And I sure as hell claim town!
;D (Previous comment was in to the game in general, not to you. :P)
DOUBLE smileys? Vote: Galzria.
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I personally like theory the best. Then, you guys will go into RVS (Robz Voting Stage), I'll try to talk some sense to you and you decide I'm scummy for standing up for poor Robz and try to mislynch me. Just a prediction.
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Hey all. What kind of RVS are we up for here? "Joke" claims? Self votes? The classic Robz Voting Stage?
Self-Voting in RVS is bad.
... No, really. Yuma will insta-vote you and refuse to remove it!
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First! And I sure as hell claim town!
;D (Previous comment was in to the game in general, not to you. :P)
DOUBLE smileys? Vote: Galzria.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Just for you.
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I personally like theory the best. Then, you guys will go into RVS (Robz Voting Stage), I'll try to talk some sense to you and you decide I'm scummy for standing up for poor Robz and try to mislynch me. Just a prediction.
Preemptive buddying!!!
Vote: Eevee
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Massclaim, anyone?
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vote: Robzersky
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I personally like theory the best. Then, you guys will go into RVS (Robz Voting Stage), I'll try to talk some sense to you and you decide I'm scummy for standing up for poor Robz and try to mislynch me. Just a prediction.
I'm in favor of theory as well, btw. Although I've never been into the whole "RobzVS" part of RVS. However, I'm usually pretty good at seeing Scum!Robz by the end of the day.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
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Galz is my top scum suspect atm.
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I personally like theory the best. Then, you guys will go into RVS (Robz Voting Stage), I'll try to talk some sense to you and you decide I'm scummy for standing up for poor Robz and try to mislynch me. Just a prediction.
An Eevee hunt I can get behind though.
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Galz is my top scum suspect atm.
Wanna side of D1 Scumteam with that?
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Galz is my top scum suspect atm.
Wanna side of D1 Scumteam with that?
Can't even produce proper sentences, SO scummy!
Eeveehunting has been less popular lately around these parts, thankfully.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
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Flavorname claim is an interesting idea, since flavor =/= alignment. But I think we risk giving the mafia some really clear targets - I mean the station has a Doctor, after all. I kinda doubt they'd make him the jailkeeper.
So I vote no claiming.
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Ok. I'm finished up RVS'ing (I hope).
I'm going to be away for awhile - will have my phone on me and will still be able to post, but expect the number of posts to drop significantly.
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Hey all. What kind of RVS are we up for here? "Joke" claims? Self votes? The classic Robz Voting Stage?
Self-Voting in RVS is bad.
... No, really. Yuma will insta-vote you and refuse to remove it!
I would to move it! But only if I had a good reason to do so.
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Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
If the scum are all bizarro versions, we should flavor claim. If there are two people with every flavor name, we narrow down each scum to one person or the other, or force them to lie. Yes?
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
If the scum are all bizarro versions, we should flavor claim. If there are two people with every flavor name, we narrow down each scum to one person or the other, or force them to lie. Yes?
Nonono, not bizarro versions of good guys in this game, just good guys in the show. If I knew any characters other than my own flavor name I'd give an example.
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Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
Joth should maybe fix this ASAP.
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Agreed. No fun in ruining the game that way. Town-aligned players in this game are "Station-aligned." And I'm not confirming whether or not I already made that clear to any non-Station-aligned players.
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Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
Joth should maybe fix this ASAP.
Probably. I don't want to break the game. But there's a chance it's intentional, maybe.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
If the scum are all bizarro versions, we should flavor claim. If there are two people with every flavor name, we narrow down each scum to one person or the other, or force them to lie. Yes?
Nonono, not bizarro versions of good guys in this game, just good guys in the show. If I knew any characters other than my own flavor name I'd give an example.
No, I know that. But like, let's say Jack Smith is a character on the show. So we have Jack Smith and Bizarro Jack Smith. Scum can't claim Bizarro Jack Smith--because Bizarros are scum--and scum can't claim Jack Smith--because the real Jack Smith would counterclaim him. So they have to, uh, pick some random, perhaps obscure character and hope for the best.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
If the scum are all bizarro versions, we should flavor claim. If there are two people with every flavor name, we narrow down each scum to one person or the other, or force them to lie. Yes?
Nonono, not bizarro versions of good guys in this game, just good guys in the show. If I knew any characters other than my own flavor name I'd give an example.
No, I know that. But like, let's say Jack Smith is a character on the show. So we have Jack Smith and Bizarro Jack Smith. Scum can't claim Bizarro Jack Smith--because Bizarros are scum--and scum can't claim Jack Smith--because the real Jack Smith would counterclaim him. So they have to, uh, pick some random, perhaps obscure character and hope for the best.
But there can't be more than one jack smith. Check the 5th bullet under "non flavored info".
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
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I think flavor name claim is good.
This is actually a good topic for serious discussion. What's the reason not to do this? I guess it's if your flavor name is in some way connected to your role, this would be giving too much information away. The upside is... I guess do scum get scummy flavor names? If they did, we should absolutely flavor claim.
I think the idea is that any flavor name could be any alignment, because the scum are all sort of "bizarro" versions of DS9 good guys, right? (pardon my lack of star trek knowledge)
If the scum are all bizarro versions, we should flavor claim. If there are two people with every flavor name, we narrow down each scum to one person or the other, or force them to lie. Yes?
Nonono, not bizarro versions of good guys in this game, just good guys in the show. If I knew any characters other than my own flavor name I'd give an example.
No, I know that. But like, let's say Jack Smith is a character on the show. So we have Jack Smith and Bizarro Jack Smith. Scum can't claim Bizarro Jack Smith--because Bizarros are scum--and scum can't claim Jack Smith--because the real Jack Smith would counterclaim him. So they have to, uh, pick some random, perhaps obscure character and hope for the best.
But there can't be more than one jack smith. Check the 5th bullet under "non flavored info".
Oh, huh. Okay, woops. And I thought I read the setup information carefully this time, too.
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Agreed. No fun in ruining the game that way. Town-aligned players in this game are "Station-aligned." And I'm not confirming whether or not I already made that clear to any non-Station-aligned players.
Blergh. I'd thought of this too, that it's possible you'd said something in the QTs. But it seems like you would put more in the opening posts/flavor than in whatever QT flavor/info you give.
For example, if there are 2 scum teams, I strongly doubt that Jo has told either of them about the existence (and especially specific name) of the other.
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Agreed. No fun in ruining the game that way. Town-aligned players in this game are "Station-aligned." And I'm not confirming whether or not I already made that clear to any non-Station-aligned players.
Blergh. I'd thought of this too, that it's possible you'd said something in the QTs. But it seems like you would put more in the opening posts/flavor than in whatever QT flavor/info you give.
For example, if there are 2 scum teams, I strongly doubt that Jo has told either of them about the existence (and especially specific name) of the other.
Now you're the one who is uninformed about the setup. It clearly spells out the names of all three possible scum factions in the opening thread.
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Agreed. No fun in ruining the game that way. Town-aligned players in this game are "Station-aligned." And I'm not confirming whether or not I already made that clear to any non-Station-aligned players.
Blergh. I'd thought of this too, that it's possible you'd said something in the QTs. But it seems like you would put more in the opening posts/flavor than in whatever QT flavor/info you give.
For example, if there are 2 scum teams, I strongly doubt that Jo has told either of them about the existence (and especially specific name) of the other.
There ARE exactly two scum teams (counting potential SK).
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I looked up mine in the wiki. Fascinating fellow or gentlelady.
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So we have three cops, one of which is useless but a named townie. We have one doc? Once we get a scum lynched, we should talk about following one cop, but not yet.
I do think we need a cop claim on D2 if one gets a scum result.
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So we have three cops, one of which is useless but a named townie. We have one doc? Once we get a scum lynched, we should talk about following one cop, but not yet.
I do think we need a cop claim on D2 if one gets a scum result.
Cops are not guaranteed town. And how do you know we have a doc?
Am I the only one who read the setup?
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
Humm? HIGHLY suspicious now? On what grounds?
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
Humm? HIGHLY suspicious now? On what grounds?
First, you didn't step in before Joth said anything. Second, while I'm town is the thing you say, sure, there has to be some non-zero chance that you would have said station-aligned rather than town-aligned. Third, I don't believe that you said town rather than station due to a lack of knowledge about your role or the game.
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Agreed. No fun in ruining the game that way. Town-aligned players in this game are "Station-aligned." And I'm not confirming whether or not I already made that clear to any non-Station-aligned players.
Blergh. I'd thought of this too, that it's possible you'd said something in the QTs. But it seems like you would put more in the opening posts/flavor than in whatever QT flavor/info you give.
For example, if there are 2 scum teams, I strongly doubt that Jo has told either of them about the existence (and especially specific name) of the other.
There ARE exactly two scum teams (counting potential SK).
Well, SK isn't exactly a "team." But yeah, I knew the possibilities. What I'm saying is that there are multiple possible names for the various scum factions, and in any one scum QT it's unlikely that Jo listed which of these other teams/team names is in the game.
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I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this. I don't think you "pushing" this says anything about your alignment by the way, and that would hold true even if this game only had one scum team.
Still the most suspicious of Galzria, that wasn't RVS. It's not much though.
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So we have three cops, one of which is useless but a named townie. We have one doc? Once we get a scum lynched, we should talk about following one cop, but not yet.
I do think we need a cop claim on D2 if one gets a scum result.
Cops are not guaranteed town. And how do you know we have a doc?
Am I the only one who read the setup?
Cops are guaranteed not to be aligned to who they investigate, so it's worth following. Can always kill them later.
Someone posted that there is a doctor on the station. I thought that meant there is a doctor in the game.
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I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this. I don't think you "pushing" this says anything about your alignment by the way, and that would hold true even if this game only had one scum team.
Still the most suspicious of Galzria, that wasn't RVS. It's not much though.
I just meant, significantly higher than my suspicion of anyone else.
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I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this. I don't think you "pushing" this says anything about your alignment by the way, and that would hold true even if this game only had one scum team.
Still the most suspicious of Galzria, that wasn't RVS. It's not much though.
This is the second time you've said this now Eevee. The first time I just ignored it because, well, I was just RVS'ingand thought you were doing the same. Maybe you're just fishing for a response? I don't know. This is probably my first "real" post of the game, and I honestly have to wonder about you getting reads out of anything from earlier. Call it OMGUS if you will, but making statements of reads like this (twice) without anything to back them up just feels like classic scum!Eevee. It's so similar to what you did in the last Blitz game, and I was the only one to see you as scum for it.
Here? Blah. No, I don't think you're scum (at least not over this), but you're not exactly screaming town!Eevee either. If you're just fishing for a response you got one. Will you do me the honor of at least explaining your read instead of just stating it?
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Hi all! It feels good to finally be Town (well, you know, "Station-aligned") again, and in fact playing again. This should be fun.
Vote: mom salon to see if it works.
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why is that every game we have to have a conversation about whether or not to claim when the answer is always obviously no...?
From the OP:
These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum, exception being of course the cops, and the IC-variant if there is one.
The only information we can accurately gain from any sort of claim involves cops and potential ICs. Now is certainly not the time for cops to be claiming... same as any IC that we may have.
I guess this sort of conversation is better than RVS, because it gets people to talk and such, but really the obvious answer is no.
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Robz, do you honestly think name claiming will help town more than scum? Like, do you really think Joth would make the setup solvable that way (I know the setup says names were rolled before alignment)? It just seems... I guess you would have to explain to me how it would be more pro-town than pro-scum. Every memory I have from any game to date where we've claimed anything has been of scum benefiting MUCH more. I would generally oppose name-claiming here, unless a really convincing reason could be given to do so.
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No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
I do not remember my flavour name. It is the least important part of the PM. It isn't like it has a bearing on the game, say like a number and card...
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This may be true in general but I just want to emphasize this now: do not lynch me without giving me a chance to claim. If at any point in the game you want to put me on even L - 1, instead, announce your intent to do so and at my next availability I will claim. I will be pissed if you lynch me while I'm away.
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Robz, do you honestly think name claiming will help town more than scum? Like, do you really think Joth would make the setup solvable that way (I know the setup says names were rolled before alignment)? It just seems... I guess you would have to explain to me how it would be more pro-town than pro-scum. Every memory I have from any game to date where we've claimed anything has been of scum benefiting MUCH more. I would generally oppose name-claiming here, unless a really convincing reason could be given to do so.
I do oppose name claiming, now that we've established that names relate to role, rather than alignment. I previously thought bizarro scum were bizzaros of other player's flavor names.
I don't think Joth would make the setup solvable, but accidents happen. He evidently forgot to put that town players are "station-aligned" in the opening thread, and may/may not have told scum that town players are station-aligned. I mean, that was a mistake that was made, sort of.
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Oh obviously. I was hoping you'd ask, or rather thinking you not being curious about it seeming a bit scummy.
Fair warning, this game is going to be the weakest ever presented, seriously. But should help us getting the game along, and also I obviously see some merit to this or otherwise I wouldn't be posting it.
First! And I sure as hell claim town!
;D (Previous comment was in to the game in general, not to you. :P)
overly concerned to clarify you are not trying to pick a fight with me? Also, smileys are jokey, teensy bit scummy. TEENSY.
Then you make some jokey posts that don't really do anything (you said this yourself). Then you announce you've got to go and will only be phone-posting. Now, townGalz is known for being present and active, and I would assume scumGalz would want to try to replicate that. However, you announcing that felt a little forced to me given there was no active discussion going (and short jokey posts you could also do from your phone quite conveniently if you so desired). I know I want to announce the reasons for my legit periods of no access when I'm scum, so I can for example use the time I can "lurk" without seeming suspicious on actual situations I WANT to lurk in.
.. and that's it. AT LEAST I'M TRYING. Note, I didn't even vote Galzria for this so I don't think it's a very meaningful case. Still, got to listen to the gut. Galzria feels a very little bit off (Robz for example doesn't, I think he feels slightly towny even), above is my best effort at explaining this slightly uneasy feeling or my gutreadtaking-process in general. Feels almost embarrassing to post this, but oh well.
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I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.
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I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.
The reason is, I feel like it's something unusually tangible for this early in the game. Dsell made an excellent point, Joth corrected it, and Eevee gave a response. Was it a scum response?
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Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
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yay RVS...
Okay, so theory-wise, we know practically nothing. So, let's go ahead and see what we know: (all of this has probably already been mentioned and can be found in the opening post, I'm just trying to condense it)
1. Everyone has at least a minor role. (might be negative utility)
2. Flavor names are at least tenuously tied to powers. (I'm assuming based on the "knowing more about the show will help you make guesses about people's roles")
3. "These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment." (except the cops obviously)
4. There are 2 scum-"teams". (one might be SK)
And, that's about it?
Okay, so first point of interesting theory discussion: "follow-the-cop". This requires a doctor. Let's suppose for a moment that Dr. Bashir has the doctor role. Based on 3 above, he might be scum-aligned. Based on 1 above this is a fully accepted possibility. Of course there could simply be no doctor...I'll refer to the opening flavor post of the game: "Blood Tests, Scans, and Investigations". Three flavors of investigation, with 3 investigators...coincidence? I doubt it. It might be that Dr. Bashir administers blood tests, which detect, say, changelings. So, I don't think follow-the-cop is going to be very effective. Nonetheless a cop claiming to take down scum is usually worth it, since the chance of protection might be sufficient, though not knowing the alignment of the cop definitely throws a wrench in things. I think it's reasonable to discuss this at some point, should cop try to remain hidden and just push on the scum hard?
Second point: 2 scum teams, 15 player game, how big do you think they are? Let's see: way back in IV I think our 15-player game maxed out at 4 scum (3 mafia + SK), and that still seems reasonable to me. But 2 scum-teams, I'm a little less sure. 2 and 2? That seems kind of low to me...3 and 3 seems ridiculous high though. So, I'd assume 3 and 2? Maybe it depends on the powers given?
Okay, let's suppose 5 scum for the moment as a kind of worst-case scenario. Let's suppose that we NEVER hit scum, and scum never hits each other. How many mislynches do we have before we lose? 2 NKs + lynch = 3 deaths. Um, after 6 deaths we have 9 players which is pretty close to town loss (although we could pull out of it if scum shot each other). So, town may lose after a second mislynch? 3 mislynches is pretty much a loss if we don't take out a NK earlier. Obviously (as with all multi-scum games) there's a lot of variability here. Scum shooting each other and successful protective roles being pretty major. But I think especially because of that swinginess we should try not to walk into the lynch too quickly. Let's see: 2 week deadlines this game, so day1 ends Jan 18, 7:10pm right? Also, although we should take our time, we don't want to no lynch here (2 non-town directed deaths after skipping a lynch sounds like bad news). I think soft deadlines help with that particular situation, so should we play as though the day were ending Wednesday Jan 16th?
Third Point: name-claiming. Obviously bad, but given the confusions cited I can understand why some thought it was a good idea.
Flavor-wise I'll note that I have watched enough DS9 to find the opening flavor funny, but not enough to have intimate familiarity with the show, I knew who my character was without referencing the wiki though :).
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I agree with theorel's suggestion to setting a soft deadline to Jan 16th 7:10pm forum time. Should pretty much guarantee we don't slide into nolynch.
Have we ever seen scum theorel? In VI, right? Is the long theory-filled posts-theorel just town theorel, or was scum theorel the same?
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I would very much like to hear other people's thoughts on Dsell's thing with Eevee, and Eevee's response.
The reason is, I feel like it's something unusually tangible for this early in the game. Dsell made an excellent point, Joth corrected it, and Eevee gave a response. Was it a scum response?
I really don't see what you're driving at here. Do you really think Eevee is scummy over that? His joke should've been obvious for what it was to anybody who has followed blitz games (which should include you). I mean, really? It's why when his post ninja'd mine, and I realized I might've come off as a jerk, I immediately corrected myself (which Eevee saw as being "overly concerned". I just didn't want to sound like a Dick.)
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I didn't (originally) realize your comment could be read / understood that way, Galzria. It makes a lot more sense now! Most of the scum read retracted.
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Reading the 11 replies...
DSell-Eevee thing. DSell seems townier, Eevee seems ever so slightly scummy. Note: I don't think it was scummy of Eevee to claim "town" instead of "station", nor do I find it suspicious that he waited to respond until joth clarified. The scummy bit is the initial explanation of why (i.e. "I didn't read my PM that carefully"). It just seems like the wrong reason...I mean really his explanation (Running gag from blitz) is sufficient, and it felt like he was trying to offer a fuller-than-necessary explanation.
Actually, I find Eevee having scum-reads at this point unusual for Eevee also. I mean in my experience he's town-reads and happiness all through day1 as town. This could be a sign of scum-Eevee trying to scumhunt effectively in order to appear more town? (PPE: and then he retracts the scum-read, so I dunno even more.)
PPE: I think I provided a good bit of theory in VI also (I engaged ehunt pretty hardcore in the # of scum per team analysis). Regardless, I'm self-aware enough to at least try to produce long theory-filled posts as scum.
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I didn't read Dsell's question until Joth had already made the ruling, fwiw.
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I think having scum reads / trying to scumhunt more aggressively is just me trying to play better and improve at this game. But fwiw, Dsell is obviously a pretty huge townread, also get a towny feel from Robz.
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I agree with theorel that we should use a lot of our time and not rush things. No bankable deadlines!
If Cops find scum, I think they should just come forward, yeah.
15 players should be 4 scum, right? 2 + 2 or 3 +1. 2 + 3 would be yuck, but I guess it's possible, depending on roles.
Galz, yes I find Eevee scummy for like three reasons I gave. The Dsell thing, and aspects of his response, including something he said that I do judge to be false, that theorel also picked up on: him not knowing his role PM and the setup or whatever. It doesn't fit Eevee; I'm pretty sure he's lying about this to inflate his case for why he didn't say station. He could be lying to inflate his case for why he didn't say station from a position of town or scum, but obviously it seems a bit scummy to me.
I didn't really get his case on you, although I think you're being fairly dense here.
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Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.
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Welcome, new guy! You seem to have a solid grasp on the game (I agree with all your points). What kind of previous experience with mafia do you have, if any? Have you been following any of the games here?
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Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.
I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.
It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.
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Eevee is scummiest so far, followed by theo.
Robz is town!robz so far.
I haven't gotten strong feelings from anyone else yet.
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OH, so could be a role thing he got in his pm called hated or the sort which makes you die with fewer votes? I see; that's interesting. Eevee; I have only played the basic mafia IRL, and I did read through a couple of completed games on this site.
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OH, so could be a role thing he got in his pm called hated or the sort which makes you die with fewer votes? I see; that's interesting. Eevee; I have only played the basic mafia IRL, and I did read through a couple of completed games on this site.
The thing with Hated is it's not such a big deal when it takes a lot of votes to kill someone--like now, when there are a lot of people alive.
But when we get down to it, say there are 5 people left, including 2 scum and Mr. Hated. Normally, the town can still win if they lynch a scum here. But with Mr. Hated around, both scum can instant vote for Mr. hated, and he dies, because it would only take 2 votes to kill him, instead of 3.
In Mafia XI, the game I moderated, Insomniac was Hated, and this issue almost came up. But the last remaining scum didn't take advantage of Insomniac being Hated, and instead night-killed him while there were still a lot of people left. The game did get down to 3 people, at which point, if Insomniac had still been alive in place of one of the two other town people, the scum would have won. Since this was not the case, he lost.
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Post count time? LALL time.
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I don't know why there are a couple big spaces in my last post.
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It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
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It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
Why do you want me to claim? If it was good for me to claim day 1, I would have done so already, or would do so of my own accord. Don't be pushing for claims day 1, if a wagon starts on me then hopefully it's because people think I'm scum, NOT because you want me to claim. Also, can you explain what you mean when you say I'm the least risky person to lynch?
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Oh, because if I'm "Hated" then it's less bad losing me than someone else, I get it.
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Also, FWIW, the "Don't put me on L - 1" thing was just a safety net. Just don't lynch me before I've claimed.
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On the Town/Station thing, I considered PMing joth about it, but I thought "Station" appeared enough in the OP for it not to matter that much. I got a null-read from Eevee's first post, that seems like something Eevee might do regardless. Town-read from Dsell of course, but certainly not obvTown. I think it could be possible for scum to have guessed from the OP that it wouldn't be called Town (what does Town mean when you're on a space ship?), or they might have been told we were "Station-aligned". But I think the most likely explanation is that Dsell is Town and joth saying "I'm not saying if scum know you're Station-aligned" was attempting to give us a way out of giving Dsell obvTown status (regardless of his actual alignment).
Also, nullread from Cuzz asking joth to fix it, I think that was good sportsmanship and could have come from any alignment.
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Odo sits at Quark's bar drumming his fingertips on the bar.
"I haven't heard anything about any Maquis action," Quark says, in his tone of mock offendedness. "And believe me, if they were planning something, I'd know. As for the Mirror Universe, you let me know if they're aboard. It's not good for business, dopplegangers running around. People get unsettled, stop drinking, stop gambling. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some customers."
He turns back to Morn, who's reciting a long and involved personal story.
"Hrrumph," says Odo.
Vote Count 1.1
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (1): Cuzz
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
Flavor is for my own fun and the enjoyment of the few Trekkies amongst you. Trying to analyze it for game information is a fruitless endeavor you are advised against.
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Okay first off sorry for not being here. I was unaware that when the thread moved I needed to post in it to be updated when people posted. Secondly, its a lot harder to get reads on people when you don't already know there alignment. I read through everything and dunno, get a slight scum vibe from eevee and liopoil. To explain eevee reminds me of how he played in the last blits game, and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
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and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
Ha ha, I like your logic.
Also, I guess we're not accepting "mom salon" for mcmcs.
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Hmm I think like most other people, I'm getting somewhat of a scum-vibe from Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Firstly, why is it bad if Dsell has become obvTown? If he's Town, surely that's a good thing. I also agree with Robz that it seems a bit strange that you wouldn't remember what the wording was. For me, at least, I saw "Station-Aligned", and it took me a moment to realise that couldn't mean anything other than the equivalent to Town. I even checked the OP to see if it was there, and there were enough "station"s to make it obvious that Station meant Town. If the PM said "You're Town (which btw we're calling Station-Aligned)" then you could just see the Town and move on, but because Town wasn't mentioned, you had to see Station-Aligned and interpret that as Town, which I feel makes it harder to forget at least the Station part. And although I agree with you that I can't remember my flavour name without checking, I think saying that you "still don't know it" was a strange way of wording it.
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but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
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and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
Ha ha, I like your logic.
Also, I guess we're not accepting "mom salon" for mcmcs.
Maybe the mod isn't but I sure am!
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but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
vote: eevee
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It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
Why do you want me to claim? If it was good for me to claim day 1, I would have done so already, or would do so of my own accord. Don't be pushing for claims day 1, if a wagon starts on me then hopefully it's because people think I'm scum, NOT because you want me to claim. Also, can you explain what you mean when you say I'm the least risky person to lynch?
Settle, Jimmmmm. Guy is new to forums and you crazy cats. Also, everybody else, I haven't played with Jimmmmm enough to know if this sounds overly snappy for him or not. Chime in? Not saying he should claim and not saying he shouldn't, just wondering about his response.
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It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
Why do you want me to claim? If it was good for me to claim day 1, I would have done so already, or would do so of my own accord. Don't be pushing for claims day 1, if a wagon starts on me then hopefully it's because people think I'm scum, NOT because you want me to claim. Also, can you explain what you mean when you say I'm the least risky person to lynch?
Settle, Jimmmmm. Guy is new to forums and you crazy cats. Also, everybody else, I haven't played with Jimmmmm enough to know if this sounds overly snappy for him or not. Chime in? Not saying he should claim and not saying he shouldn't, just wondering about his response.
Whoops, sorry, I lie. Not new to forums, new to forum mafia.
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but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
vote: eevee
Are we still in RVS or are you openly sheeping this?
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vote: eevee
woah what happened to taking our time?
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but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
vote: eevee
Are we still in RVS or are you openly sheeping this?
Not RVS. My last post said Eevee was scummiest. Just putting my vote where my mouth is.
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vote: eevee
woah what happened to taking our time?
Not my idea.
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A note for cops: if we did a three-claim, I'd suggest no alignment mention (just claim cop, not marquis cop, etc). This only works if all three claim. Gives wifom and all that. Again, only if we get to where all cops claim. So not today, obviously.
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It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
Why do you want me to claim? If it was good for me to claim day 1, I would have done so already, or would do so of my own accord. Don't be pushing for claims day 1, if a wagon starts on me then hopefully it's because people think I'm scum, NOT because you want me to claim. Also, can you explain what you mean when you say I'm the least risky person to lynch?
Settle, Jimmmmm. Guy is new to forums and you crazy cats. Also, everybody else, I haven't played with Jimmmmm enough to know if this sounds overly snappy for him or not. Chime in? Not saying he should claim and not saying he shouldn't, just wondering about his response.
Yeah that reads a lot snappier than I meant. I was actually really surprised to see you telling me to settle, until I re-read my post, and you have a point. I just don't think you should vote for me in order to force me to claim. Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
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Not RVS. My last post said Eevee was scummiest. Just putting my vote where my mouth is.
Sorry, it's late and I guess I wasn't keeping posts straight. It is a true story, you did say Eevee was scummy but you also didn't say why. Care to? I can claim anything under the sun but that doesn't mean I don't need to prove it.
I'm not wearing pants!
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Yeah ash, you haven't really contributed anything other than cop/doctor-related theory and some reads without reason. Why do you find Eevee scummy? More importantly (since your answer to the first question will likely be similar to what has already been said), why do you find theorel scummy?
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Yeah ash, you haven't really contributed anything other than cop/doctor-related theory and some reads without reason. Why do you find Eevee scummy? More importantly (since your answer to the first question will likely be similar to what has already been said), why do you find theorel scummy?
Eevee is gut based, plus what I think are scum!eevee tells, such as his reaction to the Dsell thing. The running gag thing is my thing, too, so I feel like I know how it ought to go. I think scum!eevee could slip with it.
I will generally find "listen to me because of my uber-smart theory wall of text posts" style of town-leading scummy, and that is theo to a tee. Now, that's theo in all his games, so I invariably find him scummy in every game. I'll be right eventually.
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Bunch of things.
@Liopoil: I don't think we want to lynch Jimm for that reason, no. But I like that you are already doing some slightly more advanced thinking.
@raerae: Jimm did sound uncommonly snappy, yes. On ashersky, I do think it's better (and less suspicious!) when people post their exact reasons for voting for someone, or at least have posted such reasons in a recent post. But I think there are lots of good reasons to be at least a little suspicious of Eevee; I have posted many myself. His role PM comment is the most indicting, presently.
@Mcmc: There's no need to panic over like one vote. We vote and unvote like crazy. Sometimes multiple people get bajillions of votes. It's fine for Eevee to get a bunch of votes. If people vote for him and end this day too soon, we will accuse them of being scum and kill those people tomorrow.
Disclaimer for anyone who doesn't know: Mcmc is my IRL brother.
@Post count: My vote for Galzria was fake. I was surprised he hadn't responded to my accusation that he was being dense, but maybe he isn't around, and anyway I don't yet find him scummier than anyone else.
Vote: Eevee, my top scumread for now.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
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raerae
I'm not wearing pants!
This is not even true. You have pants on right now.
(for people who care about these things, this is a real-life claim between me and raerae; I am literally looking at her right now and she is wearing pants. Though they are on fire, since she lied about them being on in the first place)
Copclaims
A note for cops: if we did a three-claim, I'd suggest no alignment mention (just claim cop, not marquis cop, etc). This only works if all three claim. Gives wifom and all that. Again, only if we get to where all cops claim. So not today, obviously.
We should never be in a place where all three cops claim. The rule-post said that there was no guarantee that cops will even be town-aligned. Cops should only come forward when they get a scum result. So claiming cop to save ones hide or claiming when you get to L-1 isn't necessarily going to help town.
DS9 and flavor
Flavor-wise I'll note that I have watched enough DS9 to find the opening flavor funny, but not enough to have intimate familiarity with the show, I knew who my character was without referencing the wiki though :).
I know virtually nothing about this show. Munch/raerae are trying to fill me in on these people in the flavor, I'm confused.
Eevee/Dsell/towniness/stationiness
I feel towny-vibes towards Dsell for this question, but not anything other than nullread on Eevee. I totally forget the details of my PMs and am always checking them. I only focus on "am I good/bad?", and "do I have any neato powers?"
Reading the 11 replies...
DSell-Eevee thing. DSell seems townier, Eevee seems ever so slightly scummy. Note: I don't think it was scummy of Eevee to claim "town" instead of "station", nor do I find it suspicious that he waited to respond until joth clarified. The scummy bit is the initial explanation of why (i.e. "I didn't read my PM that carefully"). It just seems like the wrong reason...I mean really his explanation (Running gag from blitz) is sufficient, and it felt like he was trying to offer a fuller-than-necessary explanation.
Actually, I find Eevee having scum-reads at this point unusual for Eevee also. I mean in my experience he's town-reads and happiness all through day1 as town. This could be a sign of scum-Eevee trying to scumhunt effectively in order to appear more town? (PPE: and then he retracts the scum-read, so I dunno even more.)
PPE: I think I provided a good bit of theory in VI also (I engaged ehunt pretty hardcore in the # of scum per team analysis). Regardless, I'm self-aware enough to at least try to produce long theory-filled posts as scum.
I am not suspicious of the way Eevee explained things, I disagree with the first part of theorel's post here. But I agree with the second bit. Eevee having scumreads so early did seem very odd to me, even odder is that when Galz fought back some Eevee retracted the read, or at least toned it down. That reads like overly careful play to me.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
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raerae
I'm not wearing pants!
This is not even true. You have pants on right now.
(for people who care about these things, this is a real-life claim between me and raerae; I am literally looking at her right now and she is wearing pants. Though they are on fire, since she lied about them being on in the first place)
Thanks for proving my point, Mr. Shraeye. See people. You have to prove stuff. You shouldn't just believe words because they are said.
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@Mcmc: There's no need to panic over like one vote. We vote and unvote like crazy. Sometimes multiple people get bajillions of votes. It's fine for Eevee to get a bunch of votes. If people vote for him and end this day too soon, we will accuse them of being scum and kill those people tomorrow.
Yeah the voting in a regular mafia game is much different than in Blitz, mcmcsalot. Votes come and go, quickhammers don't happen really, scum can't talk during the day.
In other news, I also think Jimmm was a little bit snappy, but he's got some snap in him. I don't think him being a little sassy makes him scummy, but his clarification comment where he apologizes for the snap does feel scummier to me. Here's the slightly suspicious post below.
It's been less than five hours! hmmmm.... so, since it's bad if Jimmmm is in the end, hated, and station, then we should be more inclined to lynch him. He could still be scum. we'd also be able to get him to claim, although who knows if that helps scum or station more... I'm not saying we should lynch him, but he is the least risky person to lynch because the consequence of a mislynch is not at bad.
Why do you want me to claim? If it was good for me to claim day 1, I would have done so already, or would do so of my own accord. Don't be pushing for claims day 1, if a wagon starts on me then hopefully it's because people think I'm scum, NOT because you want me to claim. Also, can you explain what you mean when you say I'm the least risky person to lynch?
Settle, Jimmmmm. Guy is new to forums and you crazy cats. Also, everybody else, I haven't played with Jimmmmm enough to know if this sounds overly snappy for him or not. Chime in? Not saying he should claim and not saying he shouldn't, just wondering about his response.
Yeah that reads a lot snappier than I meant. I was actually really surprised to see you telling me to settle, until I re-read my post, and you have a point. I just don't think you should vote for me in order to force me to claim. Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
I haven't noticed anything yet. Care to enlighten people, or just hold a mysterious read?
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
Great. One more thing you won't explain, I assume?
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
Great. One more thing you won't explain, I assume?
The pants thing. Well, the y'all need to prove what you say thing, more specifically. That's a fine order to the town as an IC, but presumptuously scummy as scum.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
Great. One more thing you won't explain, I assume?
Of course, now I just coached you, which is also scummy.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
Great. One more thing you won't explain, I assume?
The pants thing. Well, the y'all need to prove what you say thing, more specifically. That's a fine order to the town as an IC, but presumptuously scummy as scum.
I couldn't decide on a snarky response so here they are and you may pick your favorite:
1) Yeah, I hate it when people tell me to prove things. That's so awful. Why don't they just believe everything I say.
2) It's totally town to call me scummy after telling the thread I always read scummy.
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Note to all: raerae always reads scummy without the benefit of being an IC.
So has something I've said already come across as scummy or is it just the fact that I've said anything?
You have.
Great. One more thing you won't explain, I assume?
Of course, now I just coached you, which is also scummy.
Wait, what? You coached me? To not explain the things I say? More question marks???
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I couldn't decide on a snarky response so here they are and you may pick your favorite:
1) Yeah, I hate it when people tell me to prove things. That's so awful. Why don't they just believe everything I say.
2) It's totally town to call me scummy after telling the thread I always read scummy.
@reason #2, I don't think he's actually called you scummy yet.
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Sigh. Raerae, I am saying you will continue to come across scummy due to your attitude. Why do I know this? I am me. I get lynched ALL the time for seeming scummy as town.
I gave you advise on how to seem less scummy. That's called coaching and a scum tell by many a player here on f.ds.
You can ask for reasons from someone. Saying "you must prove yourself when you say something!" is not a towny way to say it. That's my point. You will be read as scummy with that sort of post.
Was that clearer?
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Okay, unless one of you actually has a valid case on the other, I feel like this bickering is a bit of a derailment. shraeye, raerae (and anyone else), the biggest problem I have with Eevee at this point is his contradicting himself. What do you think about that?
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Oh and I meant to say, "...himself, and ash seems to agree."
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I agree with theorel that we should use a lot of our time and not rush things. No bankable deadlines!
If Cops find scum, I think they should just come forward, yeah.
15 players should be 4 scum, right? 2 + 2 or 3 +1. 2 + 3 would be yuck, but I guess it's possible, depending on roles.
Galz, yes I find Eevee scummy for like three reasons I gave. The Dsell thing, and aspects of his response, including something he said that I do judge to be false, that theorel also picked up on: him not knowing his role PM and the setup or whatever. It doesn't fit Eevee; I'm pretty sure he's lying about this to inflate his case for why he didn't say station. He could be lying to inflate his case for why he didn't say station from a position of town or scum, but obviously it seems a bit scummy to me.
I didn't really get his case on you, although I think you're being fairly dense here.
To answer you from further on, but referring back to this:
The "dense" comment didn't phase me... Outside being a little personal for you anyway. But honestly, no, I don't think your points are well made here. Eevee made the first post of the game with an obvious joke. I don't care what a mod calls teams usually, my first thought when I read my PM is "oh, I'm town again", or "oh look, scum, this should be cool". I rarely take note of flavor - especially in a setup whose flavor I'm almost entirely unfamiliar with (which Eevee stated prior to the game starting).
Now, you could argue the case that Jimmmm is making to call him scummy, and yeah, maybe there's some merit there - but what you called out? Picking up on Dsell's "he used 'town'!"? Sorry, no.
That out of the way, there's a few other things I wanted to address before I pass out (drunk as hell, whooo!):
Soft-deadline: Absolutely in favor. We've set and followed through with it in two games now, and we've hit scum D1 in both. I haven't looked at what three actual deadlines are supposed to be, but I recall Joth saying 2 weeks when I asked him in the thread for my game, so my recommendation would be next Ftiday (9:00 pm forum time?). I'm not adverse to taking more time if conversation is glowing healthily, but I absolutely hate stalls and "...now what?" attitudes. Combined with previous success, and there you go.
Raerae: She's been her normal self - which is to say there's something in the way she posts that I find off-putting. I'm sure the feeling is generally mutual. That said, she's been town both times I've felt that way, so she's likely town here. I don't know why, but I think scum!Raerae will read a lot more agreeable to me. Maybe I'm just easily fooled. For now, probably my biggest town read if only because she reads the way she has in both games I've seen her in.
Ummm... Yeah. I'm losing my train of thought. Time to hit post and let it fly. Bye-bye post. Tootles!
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Ash's town!meta at this point seems to be self-pity.
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But Galz, you sort of glossed over what has become the bigger issue with Eevee, which is the stuff he said about his role PM and the setup, that just run so hollow to me, coming from Eevee. Well, whatever you don't have to address it, if you don't find it compelling, that's that.
Has everyone talked? I feel like this is a fairly typical, non-explosive start (well, compared to M-XVIII of course). But I don't feel like I've heard from everyone, really. Only Eevee, Jimm, Galz, and Dsell have made much of an impression on me. Ash and raerae to a lesser extent. I have no idea if yuma is playing, for instance.
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Ash's town!meta at this point seems to be self-pity.
Not saying he's scummy here (honestly haven't read closely enough to form an opinion, and too drunk to do it now), but that would be an awfully easy meta to recreate as scum. "Oh woe is me! I'm so easy to mislynch!"
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Just checked the roster... invisyuma strikes again, as the saying goes.
I don't expect to hear from Glooble until like Day 4, probably.
Has sparky posted?
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But Galz, you sort of glossed over what has become the bigger issue with Eevee, which is the stuff he said about his role PM and the setup, that just run so hollow to me, coming from Eevee. Well, whatever you don't have to address it, if you don't find it compelling, that's that.
Has everyone talked? I feel like this is a fairly typical, non-explosive start (well, compared to M-XVIII of course). But I don't feel like I've heard from everyone, really. Only Eevee, Jimm, Galz, and Dsell have made much of an impression on me. Ash and raerae to a lesser extent. I have no idea if yuma is playing, for instance.
InvisiYuma?
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sparky has NOT posted yet.
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Just checked the roster... invisyuma strikes again, as the saying goes.
I don't expect to hear from Glooble until like Day 4, probably.
Has sparky posted?
Bwahahaha
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Yeah, in typical fashion, mega-lurker yuma and hyper-lurker Glooble have already posted innocuously.
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Sparky, yuma, and Glooble:
When you get here, please comment on Eevee. And general opinions on the relatively new players perhaps (mc, rae, lio)?
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Ash's town!meta at this point seems to be self-pity.
I prefer everyone else's pity.
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But Galz, you sort of glossed over what has become the bigger issue with Eevee, which is the stuff he said about his role PM and the setup, that just run so hollow to me, coming from Eevee. Well, whatever you don't have to address it, if you don't find it compelling, that's that.
Has everyone talked? I feel like this is a fairly typical, non-explosive start (well, compared to M-XVIII of course). But I don't feel like I've heard from everyone, really. Only Eevee, Jimm, Galz, and Dsell have made much of an impression on me. Ash and raerae to a lesser extent. I have no idea if yuma is playing, for instance.
I think that I did though, which is to say that I think Jimmmm's line of thought towards Eevee might bear merit. But that was not the case that I saw you presenting earlier, although maybe it's the case you feel is stronger now (protip: it is). I'm waiting to here back from Eevee before damning him as scum though, since he hasn't posted since Jimmm did (I think?).
Even then, Jimmm's case is decent for D1 shenanigans, but I still hope to find something stronger by the time the lynch rolls around.
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Ash's town!meta at this point seems to be self-pity.
Not saying he's scummy here (honestly haven't read closely enough to form an opinion, and too drunk to do it now), but that would be an awfully easy meta to recreate as scum. "Oh woe is me! I'm so easy to mislynch!"
Yeah, probably. I look forward to trying it out someday.
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But Galz, you sort of glossed over what has become the bigger issue with Eevee, which is the stuff he said about his role PM and the setup, that just run so hollow to me, coming from Eevee. Well, whatever you don't have to address it, if you don't find it compelling, that's that.
Has everyone talked? I feel like this is a fairly typical, non-explosive start (well, compared to M-XVIII of course). But I don't feel like I've heard from everyone, really. Only Eevee, Jimm, Galz, and Dsell have made much of an impression on me. Ash and raerae to a lesser extent. I have no idea if yuma is playing, for instance.
I think that I did though, which is to say that I think Jimmmm's line of thought towards Eevee might bear merit. But that was not the case that I saw you presenting earlier, although maybe it's the case you feel is stronger now (protip: it is). I'm waiting to here back from Eevee before damning him as scum though, since he hasn't posted since Jimmm did (I think?).
Even then, Jimmm's case is decent for D1 shenanigans, but I still hope to find something stronger by the time the lynch rolls around.
We could just lynch Eevee and let the cops work at night.
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But Galz, you sort of glossed over what has become the bigger issue with Eevee, which is the stuff he said about his role PM and the setup, that just run so hollow to me, coming from Eevee. Well, whatever you don't have to address it, if you don't find it compelling, that's that.
Has everyone talked? I feel like this is a fairly typical, non-explosive start (well, compared to M-XVIII of course). But I don't feel like I've heard from everyone, really. Only Eevee, Jimm, Galz, and Dsell have made much of an impression on me. Ash and raerae to a lesser extent. I have no idea if yuma is playing, for instance.
I think that I did though, which is to say that I think Jimmmm's line of thought towards Eevee might bear merit. But that was not the case that I saw you presenting earlier, although maybe it's the case you feel is stronger now (protip: it is). I'm waiting to here back from Eevee before damning him as scum though, since he hasn't posted since Jimmm did (I think?).
Even then, Jimmm's case is decent for D1 shenanigans, but I still hope to find something stronger by the time the lynch rolls around.
Well, okay. We aren't actually in disagreement then.
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Time to pass out.
But maybe one drink more?
Oooh, choices....
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I'm going out now, so I'm going to Vote: Eevee to watch how he tries to get himself out of it.
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Time to pass out.
But maybe one drink more?
Oooh, choices....
Wait, wait... are you scum??
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Time to pass out.
But maybe one drink more?
Oooh, choices....
Wait, wait... are you scum??
No. If I were scum, I would be lynched already. I suuuuck at scum. The only reason I won in M-II way back forever ago is because nobody knew me yet, so I had no meta. It's the same reason I won Blitz-1 (barely). We had newer people in that game that didn't know me as well. Every other time I've been scum, I've gotten owned.
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I will be at work until 3 today. I read about the first 3 pages last night, but was too brain dead to form a response. Apologies.
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Oh look, I'm everyone's top scum read. Jolly!
Trying to address all the questions from mobile, if I fail do ask again.
@Jimmm
Dsell becoming almost obvtown is certainly good for my wincon in this game, it's just the way it happened. it wasn't ny in game mechanics, I sort of feel we were taking advantage of a slight mod oversight. I don't want to win that way. I'm not saying blaming Dsell or saying he should have pm'd joth first or anything, it must have been bery exciting to think you can catch scum so early.
Jimmm's contradiction case has the makings of a classic day 1 mislynch. Why would I have to lie/contradict myself there if I was scum? I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that. Why would I possibly be intentionally dishonest there?
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To clear up my post awhile back; I am not saying we should necessarily lynch Jimmmm, I'm saying that we should be willing to lynch him on slightly less evidence than other people. I also was not saying that we want him to claim. Right after I said we could get him to claim I added that we don't know if that's better for scum or station. It's just another thing to consider.
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Okay, here's my actual contradiction case, as opposed to just pointing it out:
Imagine these three scenarios:
-Town Eevee A sees Dsell's #25 and thinks "Oh yeah, that's right, we're Station or something. Well at least I can clear myself by checking my PM and saying that." He then almost immediately sees joth's #29, and is disappointed, leading him to say this:
I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
(I'll acknowledge that that was taken slightly out of context, I'll get back to that)
-Town Eevee B sees Dsell's #25 and thinks "Well that would not be a great way to get Town cred, hopefully joth steps in." He then almost immediately sees joth's #29, and is relieved that he doesn't have to choose between giving some scummy-looking non-answer, or gaining some undeserved Town cred, leading him to say:
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
The point here is that Town Eevee knows if he's A or B when he reads #25, and he knows if he's disappointed or relieved when he reads #29.
-Scum Eevee sees Dsell's #25 and thinks "Uh oh how am I going to get out of this?" but then sees joth's #29 and thinks "whew well that was close, now all I have to say is that I would have said it and they won't know one way or another." He then has some time to think about the situation, and his meta, and how he would react as Town (because let's face it, we all think more about ourselves when we're scum). Nearly 3 hours later, he has come to the conclusion that Town Eevee is a standup guy who wouldn't try to take unwarranted Town cred and so he lets us know how sportsmanly Town Eevee really is. Unfortunately he's been so caught up in his thoughts of what he would do that he forgets what he has done, that is said that he would have cleared his name and taken the Town cred. So he ends up contradicting himself.
Now, I'm not saying I know 100% that Eevee is scum. I'll gladly listen to an argument for Town Eevee C who isn't quite sure how he would have reacted. But I certainly think it's the best day 1 case I've ever made.
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Sparky, yuma, and Glooble:
When you get here, please comment on Eevee. And general opinions on the relatively new players perhaps (mc, rae, lio)?
good morning friends.
I'll answer your questions specifically and then provide some general thoughts in the next posts.
1. I don't really get the eevee case, although I rarely understand any day 1 cases. Even the one time we lynched scum (Grujah in MXI) the case on him was of little substance--it was the reaction to that case that was truly telling. But in this situation, the case on eevee is of little substance and I think his reaction to it has been fine. So nothing much there. People are in a hurry to give Dsell town credit through--I give him none. I am not saying he is surefire scum, but he certainly isn't surefire town.
2. The new players... mcmc (didn't like that he was suspicious of lio because lio was new and when mcmc was new he was scum--or was that a joke?--other than that not much there) raerae (I don't think she is always scummy. I read her as town in the blitz game and was really surprised when you lynched her. However I think a meta like her's is actually relatively easy to copy, because a lot of it revolves around her being hilarious and I am guessing she is just always hilarious, so she just has to be herself... so mostly I am hesitant to read her based of her meta and think analyzing votes/interactions with confirmed town/scum in later days will be more fruitful) lio (new guy seems to be thinking out of the box a bit ala Jimmm in MXVII--I like that, keep doing it)
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Now, as promised, a further look at this quote:
No one comment on the Eevee situation until we've heard his response. Although Joth gave him the out now (justly, I agree). Still, he should respond before we talk about it.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
Eevee is saying here that it's meh (ie unfortunate) from a game point of view that Dsell gets Town cred for this, and is also saying that it would have been unfortunate from a game point of view if he had been able to clear his name before joth stepped in. I initially read this as "I wish I had a chance to clear my name", so the fact that he actually means "It's good that I didn't get to clear my name" casts a little more doubt on my case. However, he's still saying that he would have cleared his name. And despite his saying this:
I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that.
it's 4 Eevee posts and 1 hour and 46 minutes (I failed at counting in my previous post) before Eevee finally says that he actually wouldn't've answered.
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To yuma, I was making a jokae albeit a bad one about liopoil, I don't actually have a scum read on him. For that matter I don't have a town read on him either.
Jimm, after scratching my head over the eevee thing your latest post has finally made me understand it quite well. Upon understanding eevee does seem scummy, still not voting for him however just can't get out of blitz mode and I'm not thaat confident in anyone's scumminess.
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mcmc (didn't like that he was suspicious of lio because lio was new and when mcmc was new he was scum--or was that a joke?--other than that not much there)
It was such a ridiculous thing to say it can't possibly not have been a joke, right?
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To yuma, I was making a jokae albeit a bad one about liopoil
It made me lali (laugh a little inside).
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Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.
I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.
It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.
Interesting thing about being "hated" is that when I was hated in Ozle's game way back when you guys lynched me Day 1 despite my claim because being hated was viewed as being a "scummy role" You all were saying things like, "no way Ozle would give hated to a townie, he must be scum." Since then we have seen one more hated at least (Insomniac was also town) and people are treating this hated as likely town. Is hated a townie role, from my experience it is, but your guys reaction to it way back when made me think otherwise.
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Ash's town!meta at this point seems to be self-pity.
I prefer everyone else's pity.
you won't get any from me! Buck up private!
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Jimmmmm makes some very compelling points against eevee. A direct contradiction is always worth pursuing. However, I'm not getting a town vibe from jimmmmm at all. His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me. If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt. Since I'm highly suspicious of jmmmmm, I'm less inclined to trust his arguments re: eevee.
Oh yeah they sent me home early from work. I'm on the bus now posting from my phone.
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I mean, I'm on the runabout posting from my tricot dee. Got to get into the spirit of things.
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Tricorder. Damn autocorrect.
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His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me.
If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.
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The thing I don't like about Jimmm's case on Eevee is that he 1. explains that scumEevee would be more preoccupied thinking about himself than other people. but that 2. he made a mistake because he wasn't paying enough attention to what he had posted previously.
These don't fly together and is often the underlying problem of a case on a townie player who made a mistake because he actually isn't all that concerned about himself or how he looks.
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Hi guys! stationed alligned stuffs is interesting. what I get from this is that Dsell is very likely town (station) and eevee is slightly more likely to be scum than the rest of you. From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched. I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.
I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.
It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.
Interesting thing about being "hated" is that when I was hated in Ozle's game way back when you guys lynched me Day 1 despite my claim because being hated was viewed as being a "scummy role" You all were saying things like, "no way Ozle would give hated to a townie, he must be scum." Since then we have seen one more hated at least (Insomniac was also town) and people are treating this hated as likely town. Is hated a townie role, from my experience it is, but your guys reaction to it way back when made me think otherwise.
Erm.. to be fair... Voltgloss, who reacted most strongly, was scum in that game... ;D
However, that brings up a good question. Maybe it's just that in The Oz's game, that was the first time our community had seen the modifier, and so our reaction to it's presence was a little over-excited. I think the basis for the case that it was a "scummy" modifier came from this:
Hated players are easier to lynch. It's a simple way to weaken a role, albeit one that's not necessarily fun for the player. However, Hated Townies can cause problems by causing LyLo to occur earlier. If a seven-player LyLo consists of three Townies, one Hated Townie, and three scum; the scum have already won if they know who the Hated Townie is. (This is not to say that the scum should simply endgame the Town in this case, as they may not be aware of one of the players being Hated.)
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Hated
The reason being that it seemed bastard that a Mod would put in an ability that would allow scum, under the right circumstances, to end-game town. Now, we've never seen this come to fruition, and upon reflection playing with the modifier, I think it's a whole lot less likely - and thus Hated=Scum is a pretty weaksauce case.
Basically, from my perspective, we were all Mafia Newbs back then (Yes, highlight "back then" with raised eyebrows and laugh), over reacting to a new role-modifier. These days, having played with "hated" more, I'm much more inclined to believe that it could be both a scum or town role.
All that said, I don't think Jimmmm is hated, but I'm not fishing further, and neither should anybody else.
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Joth, I'm caught up to here, and am acknowledging gamestart.
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right... yes I don't want to delve further into Jimmm's role... mostly I was whining about my dying day 1 in Ozle's game--put me off RMMM games in a bad way--because you guys--and yes especially scummy scummy volt--wouldn't believe that I could be town and hated. It was bad enough being hated, but then you guys made me Untrustworthy! Sob.
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Joth, I'm caught up to here, and am acknowledging gamestart. Sorry all, forgot the blue. You've not gained a new player, I promise.
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Hey we have another mod, acknowledging the gamestart after over 150 posts. There's a Slowbro meme there somewhere.
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Hey we have another mod, acknowledging the gamestart after over 150 posts. There's a Slowbro meme there somewhere.
Obvscum mod has been lurking. 1st post 150 in? LALL.
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right... yes I don't want to delve further into Jimmm's role... mostly I was whining about my dying day 1 in Ozle's game--put me off RMMM games in a bad way--because you guys--and yes especially scummy scummy volt--wouldn't believe that I could be town and hated. It was bad enough being hated, but then you guys made me Untrustworthy! Sob.
If it makes you feel any better, we all love having you in/around/hosting/owning us in all our games.
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Speaking of Slowbro's:
Helpful Mafia hint: Don't make the mod look bad. ;)
You've been warned. 8)
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Speaking of Slowbro's:
Helpful Mafia hint: Don't make the mod look bad. ;)
You've been warned. 8)
Wow, the CSI: Miami song just went off in my head.
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The thing I don't like about Jimmm's case on Eevee is that he 1. explains that scumEevee would be more preoccupied thinking about himself than other people. but that 2. he made a mistake because he wasn't paying enough attention to what he had posted previously.
These don't fly together and is often the underlying problem of a case on a townie player who made a mistake because he actually isn't all that concerned about himself or how he looks.
I hadn't considered that angle, but now that you do it makes sense to me.
His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me.
If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.
Yeah, that reasoning doesn't sound townie at all. You can breadcrumb a fakeclaim just as easily as a real one.
Can we get a vote count?
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So I don't find yuma's argument against jimm's very strong. He is saying that scum!eevee(can someone explain why we use the exlaimation point thing) gets caught looking like scum and doesn't know what to do. Then he later has time to think of what he would do and post that. Nowhere does jim say eevee is too preocupied with himself thinking about himself.
A poor defense of another player makes me think scum team, I know thinking scum teams in a game this huge is a terrible idea but I thought of it so I'm saying it.
In summary still feel scummy about eevee, feel slightly scummy about yuma.
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Yeah, that reasoning doesn't sound townie at all. You can breadcrumb a fakeclaim just as easily as a real one.
Of course, my other intention was to make sure I'm allowed to claim before being lynched (I have been lynched before while I was away, albeit in a blitz game when it was not unexpected). We can discuss it further if and when have to claim.
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Stand by for votecount.
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Standing by.
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Hey we have another mod, acknowledging the gamestart after over 150 posts. There's a Slowbro meme there somewhere.
Obvscum mod has been lurking. 1st post 150 in? LALL.
To be fair, I have been following Major Arcana 2 as a back up mod, and have yet to post in-thread. Nobody needs vote-counts when I'm around! (Except that this game was my first priority to read, so I'm not actually caught up there if there have been new posts...in before "well we need a vote count RIGHT NOW!!!1!)
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Hey we have another mod, acknowledging the gamestart after over 150 posts. There's a Slowbro meme there somewhere.
Obvscum mod has been lurking. 1st post 150 in? LALL.
And then there's lolcats... *innocent whistle*
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Vote Count 1.2
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (1): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888,
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
This votecount was built from 1.1. I've not listed the people not voting, in case there was a reason for Joth's not doing so (and to give Jimmm something else to mouth off about. >:( ;D
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Eevee does not seem like town Eevee in this game. But everyone reacts differently when there is a case built on them, especially early. I am not super convinced by Jimmmm's contradiction case, though I'm gonna go over it again. It certainly seems possible that townEevee was just accidentally digging a deeper hole with that one. I'm just not sure.
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I agree with Galzria about Jimmm (or should I say mmmm).
Townread on yuma for articulating my defense better than I ever
could have. Making that much sense just reads towny to me.
lol PPE 17
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Eevee does not seem like town Eevee in this game. But everyone reacts differently when there is a case built on them, especially early. I am not super convinced by Jimmmm's contradiction case, though I'm gonna go over it again. It certainly seems possible that townEevee was just accidentally digging a deeper hole with that one. I'm just not sure.
I actually think, given Eevee's response, that he DOES feel more like town!Eevee here.
Actually, that's not right. He doesn't feel like Town!Eevee, but he really doesn't feel like scum!Eevee. I don't at all see the same play that I saw in ZM-IX as recently as yesterday. In that game, I got the constant feeling since his very first post of that he wasn't trying. It wasn't just apathy, it was something more, something deeper. When D2 hit and we had lynced town D1, he wasn't jumping up and down screaming to be heard. He was much more mellow and laid back. <-- And I think that's what I've been searching for. Scum!Eevee, while certainly more of a "cares-less-Eevee" gives off a "Eh, whatever" vibe. Here, Eevee made a mistake, but I don't get that same mellow and laid back feeling from his responses.
I guess it's an emotional read. Things like saying "town" instead of "station-aligned" are such complete null-tells. It's something that Scum!Eevee would do, and it's something that Town!Eevee would do. His responses since have seemed really scattered (which is what Jimm has picked up on). This is honestly more a Town!Eevee trait than Scum!Eevee though, and Eevee's responses since have definitely felt far from his scum meta - on a level that's hard to genuinely fake.
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I agree with Galzria about Jimmm (or should I say mmmm).
Townread on yuma for articulating my defense better than I ever
could have. Making that much sense just reads towny to me.
lol PPE 17
PPE 17!?! On 3 lines of text! Yikes! Stop doing RL stuff inbetween typing and posting! RL is scummy. ;)
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Vote Count 1.2
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (1): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888,
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
This votecount was built from 1.1. I've not listed the people not voting, in case there was a reason for Joth's not doing so (and to give Jimmm something else to mouth off about. >:( ;D
Well okay then. I assume that crack was about my calling you Slowbro, and unrelated to you omitting my vote. I think you'll find that I am also voting for Eevee as of #132. Also, Cuzz + ash + Robz = 3 != 1 (although should be 4 if the other three are right).
</mouthing off>
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Vote Count 1.2
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm
Not voting(11): Galzria, mcmcsalot, raerae, liopoil, shraeye, Glooble, Eevee, yuma, sparky5856, Dsell, theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Whoops forgot to write flavor. Well maybe next vote count.
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NOTE: VOTE COUNT 1.2 WAS IN ERROR, AND CANNOT BE MODIFIED BY ME
Vote Count 1.3
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
Thanks Jimmmm. < Bows head in shame, mutters muted acknowledgment of superior attention to detail (damn that hurts), renounces previous vow to never let Jimmmm co-mod again, bemoans error and subsequent loss of face with Joth, reminds self to read his own signature, moves on>
[/quote]
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NINJA'D?????????? And I wrote flavor!
Sorry Joth, I checked before I started, and you weren't online.
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Ok, I wanted a vote count before I did this, but
Vote: Jimmmm
Mostly I'm just getting bad vibes off the guy. We know the setup has no super strong town PRs, so his preemptive "don't lynch me" just doesn't make sense to me as a town move, and nothing he's said has convinced me. I'm not at all sold on this Eevee wagon, and Jimmm's been pushing it hard. Though his arguments aren't without merit, right now he just looks like the most likely scum to me.
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extended for clarity
Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw).
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
I finally found this when you asked again what people thought about your case. I see no contradiction. Eevee thinks that answering this flavor-question would have been an unfair way to gain towncred. This matches his sentiment that he thinks it's not very fair to the game setup that Dsell has gained towncred for having asked this question; but he's saying that an even more unfair event COULD have occurred, if he HAD answered.
I disagree with this last bit in that even if he had answered correctly, I'm not sure I would have cleared him fully. As joth said, town/station could have been clarified in a scum QT.
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Speaking of Slowbro's:
Helpful Mafia hint: Don't make the mod look bad. ;)
You've been warned. 8)
Oh sweetie, you don't need our help with that! :)
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extended for clarity
Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw).
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
I finally found this when you asked again what people thought about your case. I see no contradiction. Eevee thinks that answering this flavor-question would have been an unfair way to gain towncred. This matches his sentiment that he thinks it's not very fair to the game setup that Dsell has gained towncred for having asked this question; but he's saying that an even more unfair event COULD have occurred, if he HAD answered.
I disagree with this last bit in that even if he had answered correctly, I'm not sure I would have cleared him fully. As joth said, town/station could have been clarified in a scum QT.
But don't the two comments from eevee say, he could have had time to respond and then say even if I got here before joth. So did he have time to respond and didn't or did joth respond before eevee had a chance to.
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Jimmmmm makes some very compelling points against eevee. A direct contradiction is always worth pursuing. However, I'm not getting a town vibe from jimmmmm at all. His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me. If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt. Since I'm highly suspicious of jmmmmm, I'm less inclined to trust his arguments re: eevee.
Oh yeah they sent me home early from work. I'm on the bus now posting from my phone.
I mean, they could both be scum, multiple teams and all.
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scum!eevee(can someone explain why we use the exlaimation point thing)
It's just notation that stuck. You have town!playername and scum!playername. Quicker than saying scum-aligned playername.
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Oh look, I'm everyone's top scum read. Jolly!
Trying to address all the questions from mobile, if I fail do ask again.
@Jimmm
Dsell becoming almost obvtown is certainly good for my wincon in this game, it's just the way it happened. it wasn't ny in game mechanics, I sort of feel we were taking advantage of a slight mod oversight. I don't want to win that way. I'm not saying blaming Dsell or saying he should have pm'd joth first or anything, it must have been bery exciting to think you can catch scum so early.
Jimmm's contradiction case has the makings of a classic day 1 mislynch. Why would I have to lie/contradict myself there if I was scum? I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that. Why would I possibly be intentionally dishonest there?
Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
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I agree with Galzria about Jimmm (or should I say mmmm).
Townread on yuma for articulating my defense better than I ever
could have. Making that much sense just reads towny to me.
lol PPE 17
PPE 17!?! On 3 lines of text! Yikes! Stop doing RL stuff inbetween typing and posting! RL is scummy. ;)
Uh, yeah. Except I'm not joking about it. you labored over this post for an hour???
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-Town Eevee A sees Dsell's #25 and thinks "Oh yeah, that's right, we're Station or something. Well at least I can clear myself by checking my PM and saying that." He then almost immediately sees joth's #29, and is disappointed, leading him to say this:
I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
(I'll acknowledge that that was taken slightly out of context, I'll get back to that)
This is as far as I've read so far, and I really hope this shit is cleared up by the time I reach the current posts. You didn't get back to the fact that that quote was taken out of context within this post; and that post is taken COMPLETELY out of context, not just 'slightly out of context.' Here it has the exact opposite meaning of the original post, hence your supposed "contradiction."
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Oh look, I'm everyone's top scum read. Jolly!
Trying to address all the questions from mobile, if I fail do ask again.
@Jimmm
Dsell becoming almost obvtown is certainly good for my wincon in this game, it's just the way it happened. it wasn't ny in game mechanics, I sort of feel we were taking advantage of a slight mod oversight. I don't want to win that way. I'm not saying blaming Dsell or saying he should have pm'd joth first or anything, it must have been bery exciting to think you can catch scum so early.
Jimmm's contradiction case has the makings of a classic day 1 mislynch. Why would I have to lie/contradict myself there if I was scum? I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that. Why would I possibly be intentionally dishonest there?
Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
For once!
I agree with Galzria about Jimmm (or should I say mmmm).
Townread on yuma for articulating my defense better than I ever
could have. Making that much sense just reads towny to me.
lol PPE 17
PPE 17!?! On 3 lines of text! Yikes! Stop doing RL stuff inbetween typing and posting! RL is scummy. ;)
Was phone posting from dinner when our party of three realized everyone is doing something on their phone instead of say talking to each other, so we made a pact that the first guy to touch his phone until the meal is over has to take care of the check. I decided not to finish the post, as the check was 150 euros. Getting the fairly meaningless post in asap didn't feal like such a big deal anymore!
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Okay. Well, that's a fun story for our modern era.
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I initially read this as "I wish I had a chance to clear my name", so the fact that he actually means "It's good that I didn't get to clear my name" casts a little more doubt on my case. However, he's still saying that he would have cleared his name. And despite his saying this:
I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that.
it's 4 Eevee posts and 1 hour and 46 minutes (I failed at counting in my previous post) before Eevee finally says that he actually wouldn't've answered.
Ok good, you cleared it up and finally got Eevee's intent right. But the bolded part is still incorrect.
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Guys, this is a crappy case against Eevee. Do you have anything else on him other than those two sentences? I won't lynch based on that alone. Think about it logically for just a second. I think we can all admit that Eevee is a clever guy, skilled in the ways of this game, and all around generally smart stuff. He is too smart to make a direct contradiction like what you guys are reading from those posts. I, personally, didn't read it as contradictory and think it's a simple case of awkward wording.
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Here is my case against Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I believe the bolded part is a lie, or at least an extreme exaggeration.
Although I must say, so many people are expressing opposition to the Eevee case and that can't all be scum, I am sort of ready to stop talking about it and look critically and someone else. I don't think it's rock-solid by any means. The "contradiction" thing is not much, no.
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Always playing the 2nd language - card in these situations feels dirty, but Glooble/yuma/raerea/shraeye have got it right. The whole thing is just me being a careless townie and wording stuff badly.
Jimm building a big case like this clearly shows he is trying though, which is admirable. I don't think he is a good day 1 lynch because if nothing else, he will be easier to catch as keeping something like that up as mafia is going to be really hard. I am announcing it now, I'm going to be pushing for a lynch of some non-contributor, and I don't mean raw post count but not taking positions and generally not offering your opinions to town. Easiest way of escaping my scrutiny is going to be being helpful!
@Robz
I still don't know my flavor name. Really, it's just a name for me. I know what my role does, and I wouldn't be able to name a single character of DS9. I am skipping all of the flavor in this game because of this (this doesn't mean I don't appreciate you taking the time to write it joth! I'm sure it's good, it's just not for me because I'm not educated on the matter).
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But don't the two comments from eevee say, he could have had time to respond and then say even if I got here before joth. So did he have time to respond and didn't or did joth respond before eevee had a chance to.
No, Eevee's first statement with 'could' is a hypothetical. He's saying, all in one phrase, "it could have been worse, I could have had time to respond."
He's indicating that this possibility might have happened, but it didn't. So he's saying that he didn't have time to respond before Joth. People have been focusing on the second part of the statement, and leaving off the "it could have been worse". If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction.
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Here is my case against Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I believe the bolded part is a lie, or at least an extreme exaggeration.
Although I must say, so many people are expressing opposition to the Eevee case and that can't all be scum, I am sort of ready to stop talking about it and look critically and someone else. I don't think it's rock-solid by any means. The "contradiction" thing is not much, no.
Thanks for answering, Robz. I appreciate it.
I can honestly say that if I weren't a super nerd, I wouldn't remember my characters name so that didn't ring strange to me. Unless, of course, Eevee is the president of the DS9 fan club in which case let's lynch his ass.
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Here is my case against Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I believe the bolded part is a lie, or at least an extreme exaggeration.
Although I must say, so many people are expressing opposition to the Eevee case and that can't all be scum, I am sort of ready to stop talking about it and look critically and someone else. I don't think it's rock-solid by any means. The "contradiction" thing is not much, no.
I'm not so sure of Eevee-specific arguments, you've had more experience with him. But I can completely confirm that the bolded part is possible. I had no idea who my character was, and I totally don't remember the name. I know whether I'm good/bad and I know what my power is; with no connection to the flavor, that's enough for me.
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Jimm is now my top scum read, with the amount of analysis he has had I read him as a very smart player who know what hes doing.
But don't the two comments from eevee say, he could have had time to respond and then say even if I got here before joth. So did he have time to respond and didn't or did joth respond before eevee had a chance to.
No, Eevee's first statement with 'could' is a hypothetical. He's saying, all in one phrase, "it could have been worse, I could have had time to respond."
He's indicating that this possibility might have happened, but it didn't. So he's saying that he didn't have time to respond before Joth. People have been focusing on the second part of the statement, and leaving off the "it could have been worse". If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction.
Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
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Jimm is now my top scum read, with the amount of analysis he has had I read him as a very smart player who know what hes doing.
But don't the two comments from eevee say, he could have had time to respond and then say even if I got here before joth. So did he have time to respond and didn't or did joth respond before eevee had a chance to.
No, Eevee's first statement with 'could' is a hypothetical. He's saying, all in one phrase, "it could have been worse, I could have had time to respond."
He's indicating that this possibility might have happened, but it didn't. So he's saying that he didn't have time to respond before Joth. People have been focusing on the second part of the statement, and leaving off the "it could have been worse". If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction.
Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
But I'm really not sold that Jimmm was trying to trick people. I think he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person. So I have a very slight scumread from this, that increased to slight because of how hard it seemed he was pushing it. But I'm not at all close to wanting to vote for him yet.
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I think Jimmmmm was super excited because he thought he found scum. He tried to shut down the little bicker-match ashersky and I were having to direct people back to his argument. I believe scum would have just let that roll out, waste time, and distract people instead of redirecting.
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Oh look, I'm everyone's top scum read. Jolly!
Trying to address all the questions from mobile, if I fail do ask again.
@Jimmm
Dsell becoming almost obvtown is certainly good for my wincon in this game, it's just the way it happened. it wasn't ny in game mechanics, I sort of feel we were taking advantage of a slight mod oversight. I don't want to win that way. I'm not saying blaming Dsell or saying he should have pm'd joth first or anything, it must have been bery exciting to think you can catch scum so early.
Jimmm's contradiction case has the makings of a classic day 1 mislynch. Why would I have to lie/contradict myself there if I was scum? I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that. Why would I possibly be intentionally dishonest there?
Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
So...who is?
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Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
So...who is?
I'm keeping that a secret. I've found I prefer to let things develop a bit before opining publicly, as it helps prevent confirmation bias as new information comes out.
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But I'm really not sold that Jimmm was trying to trick people. I think he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person. So I have a very slight scumread from this, that increased to slight because of how hard it seemed he was pushing it. But I'm not at all close to wanting to vote for him yet.
Let me be clear I'm also not ready to vote for him yet, I'm not ready to vote for anyone yet.
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I don't find Jimmmmm scummy at all for his arguments. It's such a slight thing, and the wording is sufficiently confusing. If anything I'd lean towards a slightly towny Jimmmmm.
Quick note however: as someone who played scum in a multiple scum-team game, scum has the freedom to really scum-hunt in this game. That makes it much trickier to read people IMO, because the scum are in fact looking for scum, since they'd love to push a lynch through on the opposing team for town-cred.
15 players are just over what I can comfortably handle in my head, but let's see:
Cuzz: hasn't posted for a long time in thread (about as long as me), has his RVS vote sitting on Eevee. He was correcting people's mistakes about the set-up, which reads pro-town to me.
Robz: seems like town-Robz. Although, last time I suspected him he was a town PR, so maybe he'll just get to live for a while this time? I'm pulling for you to live Robz, even if you do lynch my for the loss at lylo. ;)
Galzria: He reads like town-Galz to me. This seems like his typical early game of posting reasonably often with a slight non-seriousness.
Eevee: I've already mentioned that he seems more critical this game than usual. Of course he could just be trying to up his game as he claims. But I still find it scummy given my note above about multi-ball (game with multiple scum-teams).
Ashersky: I'm not sure I can read him at all. He apparently always thinks I'm scummy. I've only barely seen him in play, he died night-1 in XII and hosted XVII. I don't really count BMV (and wouldn't here anyways since he had a post restriction). XI I was scum, so I wasn't really analyzing him, but I wasn't going to try to push a case on him. For what it's worth, I don't care for the self-pity...I lost every game before XVII, and was essentially the cause of the loss in VIII and XII by picking up the first town-vote at lylo, drop the pity and try to help town more.
mcmcsalot: No meta. He seems vaguely town.
shraeye: He seems his usual abrasive self.
raerae: I haven't really tried to read her before since she was IC. This game, I've not got much read here. Her posts are sort of intertwined in my mind with shraeye's (which seems reasonable regardless of alignment).
yuma: First to speak out in favor of Eevee. (The following also applies to shraeye and raerae): I think the defense of Eevee is reasonable, since I think the case was made out to be stronger than it was. I may still have a slight scum-read of Eevee, but defending people usually reads town-ish to me, since I do it as town. I do recognize a tendency for scum to defend town for the town-cred, but the particular defenses of Eevee read townie to me rather than "I know this player is town and will defend them".
liopoil: He seems town to me. Has all the markings of a new-player that rolled town in my mind.
sparky: he'll need to post something for me to have a read. Obviously sparky often lurks a lot. Does he usually post on weekends though? Opening Friday night means that I'm willing to give a bigger pass for early-game lurking than usual...but I want to know if I should for any given specific case.
Well, that's what I've got so far after catching up from my last post last night. Too many town-reads, but the game-day is still early. I'm going to vote: sparky (this is apparently how I give people passes for early game lurking on the weekend). Because I'd like to hear him post, and I like to use my vote for reasons other than voting for my biggest scum-read who is only a hair scummier than neutral. This post lacks scumScores obviously, I'll try to get those in sometime later.
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Vote Count 1.4
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Vote Count 1.4
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
I am not voting for Galzria.
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And you missed theorel's vote on sparky.
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Vote Count 1.5
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
Sparky (1): Theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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raerae: I haven't really tried to read her before since she was IC. This game, I've not got much read here. Her posts are sort of intertwined in my mind with shraeye's (which seems reasonable regardless of alignment).
I'm curious and a bit concerned about this. Why do I get lumped in with shraeye?
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Vote Count 1.4
Galzria (1): Robz
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
I am not voting for Galzria.
When did you unvote, or move your vote?
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never mind, found it.
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Vote Count 1.6
Eevee (4): Cuzz, Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmm,
Jimmmmm (1): Glooble
Sparky (1): Theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Prediction: SfS will have more posts than some of the players in this game.
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Prediction: SfS will have more posts than some of the players in this game.
You obviously took #158 to heart. I think.
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Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
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Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
I think that's fair to say of Cuzz, and maybe worth a vote. But there are three people who have barely talked at all. And things are happening!
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Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
Now this looks like a case I could get behind. But it hasn't been that long, I'll hold off voting for a while still.
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Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
I think that's fair to say of Cuzz, and maybe worth a vote. But there are three people who have barely talked at all. And things are happening!
To the absolute "no-posters", I'm accepting the fact that: A) We started on the weekend, where it's often quiet, and B) We are scattered over many different timezones. I know I am really careful not to get on the "Yuma lurk" bandwagon, because I know that he's just not up when we are. If the "No-Posters" haven't said anything by, say, Monday night, they'll be looking to get my vote. For now that, I'm willing to give them a pass and focus on those that actually HAVE talked, and have said things that I find suspicious.
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(http://achievements.schrankmonster.de/Achievement.aspx?text=50%20G%20-%20Acquire%20a%20vote%20without%20posting%20once)
I have trouble with posting on Thursdays and Fridays usually. And it'll continue to be like that.
Eevee was eager with that first "I'm town!" post, the case on him has the merits of a D1 case. Good, but not superb. No one seems to be looking elsewhere though, I'm cautious that scum could be driving some of the wagon.
Jim softclaimed PR? If he was hated, would he have bolded instead, do not put me at L-1 without giving me a chance to claim? I know he mentioned it, but if it were the case I would have bolded that instead.
Newbies are just typical newbies imo, not a whole lot of content in their posts.
Now, jim saying that Eevee thought it was meh that Dsell was obvtown is a better case.
I'm currently wearing shorts.
Meh this doesn't add a whole lot, this is a slow start for me. I'll start being more involved once more posts come.
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Meh this doesn't add a whole lot, this is a slow start for me. I'll start being more involved once more posts come.
More than 216? This was a crazy fast start.
What exactly are you waiting for?
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I meant for ME, not the game.
And that I can start being more involved now that I'm here.
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I believe Eevee. It doesn't seem to me that Jimmmm's argument is very strong. For this reason I suspect Jimmmm. I'm also thinking that he might not be hated after all. I pretty much agree with everything Glooble as said; so I'm going to join him.
Vote: Jimmmm
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Is Jimmmmm around?
Jimmmmm, what do you have to say about your Eevee argument being mostly killed? Do you still stand by it or have other thoughts now?
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I don't actually find Jimmmm scummy here at all. I think this case seems like the kind of case town would make, even if the case is wrong.
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Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
It's the weekend, and I've been busy since Friday evening. This is a lot more activity for a Saturday than I'm used to. My vote on Eevee was total RVS unrelated to the current cases against him, which I don't really buy for the most part so Unvote.
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Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
What's ridiculous about taking something out of context, immediately specifically saying you're taking it out of context, and then in the next post dealing with the whole post? If someone else pointed out that I took it out of context sure, but I obviously wasn't trying to trick you with it. I was genuinely taking it as "It's bad that I didn't get a chance to clear myself", and when I was quoting it I realised that's not what it meant, so I made a note of that and came back to it later. As I'm sure you can understand, I didn't want there to be something that made my case fall apart, and although it isn't completely refuted (he did seem to say if he could have cleared himself he would have, even though that would have been unfortunate, and then later said he wouldn't), I'm a lot less convinced than I was before (which was like 50%).
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Nice amount if action for a weekend night. Glad to come back to that.
I am okay with the Eevee wagon dying off, it served its purpose, I think, to get people talking. Still leaning scummish on Eevs, but not enough to lynch at this point, given we have time.
So, vote: raerae.
This is an actual vote. The tldr reason: IIOA.
I welcome folks going back over the thread to focus on her. I even gave her an opportunity to change. Her posts fall into three categories: jokes, notations, and questions.
I do not subscribe to the jokes=scum theory that others do, so I pass on those. I do think they are an easy way to up the post count, but it's clearly her personality, so whatever.
The second two, though, are much more scum-style postings. When all you do is note other people's posts/opinions/votes without giving your own opinions and votes, and when you continually ask questions of other instead of answering those questions yourself, your are more likely to be mafia. This is because you seem engaged but never actually have to take a stand. The only time raerae engaged on a topic was when I said she was scummy sounding.
So that's the case on raerae, and is enough for me to vote.
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Jimm is now my top scum read, with the amount of analysis he has had I read him as a very smart player who know what hes doing.
But don't the two comments from eevee say, he could have had time to respond and then say even if I got here before joth. So did he have time to respond and didn't or did joth respond before eevee had a chance to.
No, Eevee's first statement with 'could' is a hypothetical. He's saying, all in one phrase, "it could have been worse, I could have had time to respond."
He's indicating that this possibility might have happened, but it didn't. So he's saying that he didn't have time to respond before Joth. People have been focusing on the second part of the statement, and leaving off the "it could have been worse". If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction.
Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
this has been the scummiest post in the game thus far I think. It is apparent that jimmm isn't out to trick someone. I disagree with his case certainly, but that is what players do--town or mafia--they attempt to build cases and both do not want to do it in such a way that involves "trickery" especially this early in the game because they will be called out on it.
I think I will vote: mcmcsalot for this, but also for first finding the eevee case strong; 2. attempting to cast me as a potential scum partner for defending it but then ignoring all the others who defended it. 3. and then turning on Jimmm once it was apparent that the eevee wagon was going nowhere. Making a case on a bad case builder is a safe route for scum to go.
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Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
So...who is?
I'm keeping that a secret. I've found I prefer to let things develop a bit before opining publicly, as it helps prevent confirmation bias as new information comes out.
hmmm... I don't know how I feel about this. Mostly because if you are town then I want your knowledge so I can compare it to mine as I think you are a pretty solid scum hunter, but then again like you said, that would result in some confirmation bias... I guess I am ok with it... You say you have found this out? Where have you used this technique before?
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and it appears that Jimmm had similar feelings toward mcmc as I do. Jimmm who do you think is scummier... Eevee or mcmc?
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
So everyone who seems like their town self is actually scummy?
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This is a kind of useless defense/ observation, as it basically boils down "lynch people who act like themselves." It feels like you are trying to look scum hungry without contributing any new information. Makes me suspicious.
The speed with which you sheeped jimmmms case on eevee stuck out at me as well.
I've got my eye on you, ashersky.
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Sorry about the formatting - iPhone post.
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
So everyone who seems like their town self is actually scummy?
Isn't that everyone's argument, in the end?
Think about it, really.
PPE Glooble -- why not vote?
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
So everyone who seems like their town self is actually scummy?
Isn't that everyone's argument, in the end?
Think about it, really.
PPE Glooble -- why not vote?
Hmm, this far I've gotten to "that is the emptiest reason I've ever seen for a vote in my entire mafia career", what specifically should I think about?
Seriously, what I see is you voting for raerae "because she plays like her town self". If that's the entire reason and you somehow think that's a good reason, why pick her and not someone else who also plays like their town self?
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Why not vote?
vote: ashersky
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I probably won't be on for a few hours.
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
So everyone who seems like their town self is actually scummy?
Isn't that everyone's argument, in the end?
Think about it, really.
PPE Glooble -- why not vote?
Hmm, this far I've gotten to "that is the emptiest reason I've ever seen for a vote in my entire mafia career", what specifically should I think about?
Seriously, what I see is you voting for raerae "because she plays like her town self". If that's the entire reason and you somehow think that's a good reason, why pick her and not someone else who also plays like their town self?
Man, read my post again.
IIOA is a thing. You are saying give her a pass because that's just her. I refuse. She can start offering analysis and taking stands if she's town. I am. Doesn't matter on D1 if she is wrong or right. It's about contributing. She's contributed as much as invisiyuma, but with ten times the posts.
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Why not vote?
vote: ashersky
Thank you for actually taking a stand.
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Lynch mafia, not scum, but okay. That's actually ok, I would just make it more clear you are voting her to discourage her from playing like she has, not because you think her playing like that makes her more likely to be scum.
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Lynch mafia, not scum, but okay. That's actually ok, I would just make it more clear you are voting her to discourage her from playing like she has, not because you think her playing like that makes her more likely to be scum.
I think on D1 of normal games, scum is a fair goal for lynching, but I get your point.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
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I for what's it worth disagree with ashersky if he is saying "raerae never contributes in a meaningful way", if that wasn't clear already.
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So, while making dinner and thinking, I realized I didn't include everyone in my previous scattershot analysis. In particular I realized that I hadn't mentioned DSell, then I realized that I had gone until I had 11 people and then for some reason believed I'd hit everyone other than myself. So, I tried to determine which 3 people I hadn't mentioned and I remembered Glooble. But I couldn't figure out who else I left out. Now that I sit to post this though I realize it's Jimmmmm. Okay, so the 3 I left out:
DSell: medium town-read from the station-aligned question. It could be a scum-ploy for town-cred, but it strikes me as too genuine.
Glooble: He seems to be the regular "lurking" Glooble. I noticed he'd posted since my last post, but I was kind of skimming, to see if anyone had figured out who I left out of my list. Null read for the moment.
Jimmmmm: well, I did mention him in my previous post, he just didn't get a bullet-point. Anyways, yeah, I'm leaning town here. Though it could be scum pushing what he thought was a legitimate case (reference previous multi-ball note).
Final comment: @raerae, why are you uncomfortable to be linked with shraeye? I mean you guys post over the same time frame (which is reasonable), and have some level of conversation between yourselves. You've also taken the same (or very similar stances) regarding, for example, the contradiction case, and Ashersky's lack of case. So, at the moment you both kind of blend.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
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Uh, I really don 't think ashersky is scum. I think he's making a lot of sense. His post about the Eevee case serving its purpose really resonated with me. And I totally get what he's saying about raerae.
I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.
I also don't like that it's coming from lurker extraordinaire Glooble.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
sometimes you are a jerk. perhaps raerae, and the rest of us as well, should all plan our regular lives around your mafia cases on us. When are you free for you to suspect me, my calendar is a bit busy, but I am sure we can work out a time for you to be suspicious of me too...
Or perhaps you once again just have blinders on. Once you decide they are scum, they are scum. Case closed. If only you were right more than 37.5% correct lynch rate that you currently have going
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She's contributed as much as invisiyuma, but with ten times the posts.
right, cause i have contributed oh so little this game.
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I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.
Ok but in my experience, Ashersky's read's are LARGELY based on his "superior" meta reads. I can listen to points he makes about specific points, but I don't trust a confident Ashersky early in the game.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
This isn't a blitz game, the clock isn't gonna run out on us that soon. This is not a scum tell. FWIW I just came back from dinner too.
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To me ashersky's overconfidence in his reads is just far more of an antitown move than anything raerae ever did or didn't do.
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Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?
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Dr. Bashir and Garak sit down for their regular morning breakfast.
"So Doctor, am I mistaken or have I noticed more men in uniform patrolling the promenade this morning? I hope nothing's amiss."
"Oh, I'm sure we'll muddle through somehow, Garak."
"Well if there's any ... tailoring I can assist you with, I trust you'll let me know. I'm always... happy to help."
Vote Count 1.7
Eevee (2): Robz888, Jimmmmm
Jimmmmm (1): liopoil
sparky5856 (1): theorel
Cuzz (1): Galzria
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): yuma
ashersky (1): Glooble
Not Voting (7): shraeye, mcmcsalot, raerae, sparky5856, Cuzz, Dsell, Eevee
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?
Fwiw, I never meant to imply you being busy in IRL was scummy, but rather that the need to announce it in such a situation felt like an emotional reaction I get when scum.
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Either Jimm and Robz are doublevoters or there is a mistake in the vote count. :)
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RIght you are, I'm going to just edit it, so as not to clutter it up too much.
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I'm not really seeing the case too well on raerae, or ashersky for that matter.
What do IIOA and PPE stand for?
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information instead of analysis (stating information but not offering analysis is a way for scum to seem like they're contributing without actually contributing)
pre-post edit. (editing before posting due to noticing the replies before you hit post)
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Yuma, I did not turn on the eevee wagon as soon as I saw it going nowhere, I still believe eevee is somewhat scummy, I simply felt like jimm forced his case in a way I did not like. Forcing a case seems like a scum trait to me.
As far as raerae goes she seems exactly like town raerae from ZMIX, there is a reason we got town to mislynch her D1, she seems scummy in her normal play. While I agree she could replicate that as scum, I don't think its a good argument against her.
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Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?
Fwiw, I never meant to imply you being busy in IRL was scummy, but rather that the need to announce it in such a situation felt like an emotional reaction I get when scum.
Nailed it. Raerae's dodge is this. Being busy, doing other things, IRL are not scummy. The way her post called me an idiot then disappeared instead of saying why was the scummy part of it.
I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
sometimes you are a jerk. perhaps raerae, and the rest of us as well, should all plan our regular lives around your mafia cases on us. When are you free for you to suspect me, my calendar is a bit busy, but I am sure we can work out a time for you to be suspicious of me too...
Or perhaps you once again just have blinders on. Once you decide they are scum, they are scum. Case closed. If only you were right more than 37.5% correct lynch rate that you currently have going
This is clearly a personal attack, and against the golden rule of this game. Calling me a jerk? Laughable.
Check your stats and see how many times I have been scum and not scum. You all love to mislynch me. Folks asked for less self-pity, so I'm just embracing it. I will make bold statements instead of hedging. I will back up my reads with votes. If that makes me a jerk, ask the mod to modkill me or replace me. Otherwise, just play the game, man. What did I do to you?
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@ashersky/yuma: I think you guys should both step away and cool off a bit.
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To me ashersky's overconfidence in his reads is just far more of an antitown move than anything raerae ever did or didn't do.
The fact that you know it's overconfidence should help you temper then when including them in your own analysis.
Take TheMunch for example--he's a classic overconfident reader. We know that and take it into account.
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Also, Yuma was correct that I incorrectly used him as an example of raerae not providing content. He was in fact posting more around the same time.
I should have said sparky. Or Glooble. They've both lurked, I think. It is the weekend, though.
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I'm not really seeing the case too well on raerae, or ashersky for that matter.
I can speak to my case on raerae--it's weak to middling at best, but it's early D1. Gotta start somewhere. That's probably why you aren't really seeing it.
Also, it's highly meta based, which is always tougher on newer folks.
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Yuma, I did not turn on the eevee wagon as soon as I saw it going nowhere, I still believe eevee is somewhat scummy, I simply felt like jimm forced his case in a way I did not like. Forcing a case seems like a scum trait to me.
As far as raerae goes she seems exactly like town raerae from ZMIX, there is a reason we got town to mislynch her D1, she seems scummy in her normal play. While I agree she could replicate that as scum, I don't think its a good argument against her.
Mom salon is sounding towny here. Generally speaking, "I did that as scum before" arguments is second-level scum play. No offense mom salon, but probably not pulling it unless you're veteran scum partners coached.
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I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.
Ok but in my experience, Ashersky's read's are LARGELY based on his "superior" meta reads. I can listen to points he makes about specific points, but I don't trust a confident Ashersky early in the game.
That's fair.
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ashersky, sounds like you are proud about getting mislynched that often. It's twisted. Getting yourself lynched as town is very bad play!
Also, lets play nice everyone. I too thought your tone was a tad hostile, ashersky. No reason to resort into personal attacks, though.
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ashersky, sounds like you are proud about getting mislynched that often. It's twisted. Getting yourself lynched as town is very bad play!
Also, lets play nice everyone. I too thought your tone was a tad hostile, ashersky. No reason to resort into personal attacks, though.
Where was I hostile to Yuma before he called me a jerk?
Proud to be mislynched? You make it sound like every time I've been mislynched, it is my fault. Classic to blame the victim. Whether you can read me well or not is up to you.
I made a case on someone. If someone else would like to do the same, that would be helpful. Theo posted a list of thoughts on everyone. That's helpful. Not a lot of people have said enough to be analyzed.
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I think I should put in my (possible) last word on the contradiction case. I have to admit that it's not nearly as strong as I thought it was. If as Eevee says, he wouldn't have wanted to get unfair town cred, then being here before joth would have put him in a very awkward position, since saying "I'm not going to answer that because I shouldn't get the Town cred" might make it seem like he didn't know the answer. His saying that things would have been worse if he had been given the chance to do this seems like it could fit. I'm not really sure anymore how I feel about Eevee, going to have to re-read him again.
Galz, you said a couple of times that my case on Eevee had merit. What are your thoughts now?
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In rereading raerae, I disagree with one basic point about ashersky's case. I don't think that raerae's questions were IIoA.
When she asks if ashersky is openly sheeping Jimmmm's Eevee-contradiction case, that's analysis not information. She may be essentially offering you an out in the same moment that she criticizes your play, but that doesn't mean it isn't a criticism of what she sees as scummy behavior.
However, she did take a while to finally comment on the contradiction case. Now, there are two parts to this:
1. It was after ashersky's "coaching". Which was more of a criticism of the "prove it" post than anything. In fact he even notes that she can ask questions. At no point in his "coaching" do I see him criticize raerae's lack of taking stands as the scummy part, rather her "giving orders". I (personally) think this significantly weakens the point that she only took a stand after being criticized for looking scummy.
2. It was just after shraeye had commented on it to the same effect. He claimed to not have seen the contradiction argument. Now, maybe raerae didn't see it either? But she had quoted it (in particular when she questioned ashersky's sheeping of it). However, she only took a stand on "it's clearly not a contradiction" after shraeye already did.
The end result here, is that I'm finding raerae a little scummy there. I think this largely played into my previous analysis where I mentioned the intertwining of shraeye and raerae.
I'll also note posts at 215/216. In this instance raerae has the same reaction as shraeye within like 11 minutes of each other.
Personally I was inclined to view both of these as more raerae/shraeye thinking similarly. BUT, they are the only stands she's taken where she didn't ask questions. AND, as noted she had plenty of time to have that reaction to the contradiction case before shraeye did, but did not. I could see a raerae is scum shraeye is town situation here...I'm not sold, but I'm happy to put raerae into the minor suspicion category for now.
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I think I should put in my (possible) last word on the contradiction case. I have to admit that it's not nearly as strong as I thought it was. If as Eevee says, he wouldn't have wanted to get unfair town cred, then being here before joth would have put him in a very awkward position, since saying "I'm not going to answer that because I shouldn't get the Town cred" might make it seem like he didn't know the answer. His saying that things would have been worse if he had been given the chance to do this seems like it could fit. I'm not really sure anymore how I feel about Eevee, going to have to re-read him again.
Galz, you said a couple of times that my case on Eevee had merit. What are your thoughts now?
I thought that your case was a whole lot more of an actual attempt to find scum then it appeared Robz' case was. I think that I made my general feelings on Eevee clear Reykjavik (erm, that's an autocorrect for relatively apparently. One that I'm leaving in because I've NO clue what it is (capital R suggests proper name? Aaaanyway...))) early.
I'll find the quote in a minute, but basically I don't see him as being Town!Eevee per se, but... I just saw scum!Eevee as recently as yesterday in Blitz-IX, and I pegged him as scum after his very first post. More than that though, as the game went on I picked up on the apathetic nature of Eevee's play that made me so sure he was scum by the end of D2 - and that is that anytime a case was made against him, or really against anybody, he had a "Eh, whatever, sure" attitude. He wasn't... Trying to win, as it were - at least not the way a townie, and in particular town!Eevee would be doing in lylo.
Reading him here, I don't find the "misteps" that you've seen to be a town or scum tell. I think Eevee of either alignment would do those things. But his overall feel has not at ALL been the same as the Eevee of yesterday, and I don't think he could have such a snap change in behavior.
Anyway, will find post from earlier, hold on.
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Post #170
Eevee does not seem like town Eevee in this game. But everyone reacts differently when there is a case built on them, especially early. I am not super convinced by Jimmmm's contradiction case, though I'm gonna go over it again. It certainly seems possible that townEevee was just accidentally digging a deeper hole with that one. I'm just not sure.
I actually think, given Eevee's response, that he DOES feel more like town!Eevee here.
Actually, that's not right. He doesn't feel like Town!Eevee, but he really doesn't feel like scum!Eevee. I don't at all see the same play that I saw in ZM-IX as recently as yesterday. In that game, I got the constant feeling since his very first post of that he wasn't trying. It wasn't just apathy, it was something more, something deeper. When D2 hit and we had lynced town D1, he wasn't jumping up and down screaming to be heard. He was much more mellow and laid back. <-- And I think that's what I've been searching for. Scum!Eevee, while certainly more of a "cares-less-Eevee" gives off a "Eh, whatever" vibe. Here, Eevee made a mistake, but I don't get that same mellow and laid back feeling from his responses.
I guess it's an emotional read. Things like saying "town" instead of "station-aligned" are such complete null-tells. It's something that Scum!Eevee would do, and it's something that Town!Eevee would do. His responses since have seemed really scattered (which is what Jimm has picked up on). This is honestly more a Town!Eevee trait than Scum!Eevee though, and Eevee's responses since have definitely felt far from his scum meta - on a level that's hard to genuinely fake.
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Reykjavik is the capital of Iceland. :) Right here in my hoods!
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I voted for Eevee to see how he would respond to the pressure, and maybe someone who's better at meta arguments than I am can weigh in as well, but I haven't seen anything all that scummy about his response. He's responded to several points as necessary but hasn't focussed too much on his defense (I'm thinking of Lekkit in Major Arcana II), and has continued to look at cases on other people. So while I'm certainly not giving Eevee the all-clear, I'm willing to Unvote.
However, I would like to hear some thoughts on this:
I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this.
This reeks of the Robz "yes I can see why you think that's scummy" strategy, which could come from Town or scum. Anyone who knows Eevee better than I do, is Town Eevee likely to say something like this?
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Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?
since I can't remember it, apparently I didn't notice it when it happened. When did this occur?
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I think he means when you called him a jerk.
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Yuma, why are you persecuting Ashersky over calling Raerae's announced absence scummy, but you never mentioned the "case" Eevee made on me earlier that called out essentially the exact same thing - that my announcing I would be away from thread was somehow scum buying lurk time?
Fwiw, I never meant to imply you being busy in IRL was scummy, but rather that the need to announce it in such a situation felt like an emotional reaction I get when scum.
Nailed it. Raerae's dodge is this. Being busy, doing other things, IRL are not scummy. The way her post called me an idiot then disappeared instead of saying why was the scummy part of it.
I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
sometimes you are a jerk. perhaps raerae, and the rest of us as well, should all plan our regular lives around your mafia cases on us. When are you free for you to suspect me, my calendar is a bit busy, but I am sure we can work out a time for you to be suspicious of me too...
Or perhaps you once again just have blinders on. Once you decide they are scum, they are scum. Case closed. If only you were right more than 37.5% correct lynch rate that you currently have going
This is clearly a personal attack, and against the golden rule of this game. Calling me a jerk? Laughable.
Check your stats and see how many times I have been scum and not scum. You all love to mislynch me. Folks asked for less self-pity, so I'm just embracing it. I will make bold statements instead of hedging. I will back up my reads with votes. If that makes me a jerk, ask the mod to modkill me or replace me. Otherwise, just play the game, man. What did I do to you?
perhaps I misspoke (typed) I don't know if you are a jerk. Most of the time you seem like a nice person, but sometimes your posts can make you seem like a jerk. That was one of them. It wasn't necessarily meant to be a personal attack, and if you felt it was I apologize. But you do have a history of not being above using RL events as a way to build a case on someone.
In MXV I was pretty furious with you actually. It was when I had inadvertently offended Voltgloss and was trying to be extremely sincere in apologizing to him. I felt really, really horrible. And then you came in and said that my apologies were a scum maneuver to for me to gain credit. Man! That was just horrible. I didn't know at the time, but you were scum and you knew both volt and I were town. So you must have known my apologies and feeling horrible about it were sincere, but you painted it as "scum."
So perhaps a little bit of angst has carried over into this case, but I hope not. I don't think you are a jerk, but sometimes your posts make you seem that way. Mine do to. I super offended voltgloss remember and I have probably offended you know, but there you go.
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I think he means when you called him a jerk.
I don't remember the eevee-galz interaction
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Oh right. It was easy to miss, but I found it:
Ok. I'm finished up RVS'ing (I hope).
I'm going to be away for awhile - will have my phone on me and will still be able to post, but expect the number of posts to drop significantly.
Then you make some jokey posts that don't really do anything (you said this yourself). Then you announce you've got to go and will only be phone-posting. Now, townGalz is known for being present and active, and I would assume scumGalz would want to try to replicate that. However, you announcing that felt a little forced to me given there was no active discussion going (and short jokey posts you could also do from your phone quite conveniently if you so desired). I know I want to announce the reasons for my legit periods of no access when I'm scum, so I can for example use the time I can "lurk" without seeming suspicious on actual situations I WANT to lurk in.
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perhaps I misspoke (typed) I don't know if you are a jerk. Most of the time you seem like a nice person, but sometimes your posts can make you seem like a jerk. That was one of them. It wasn't necessarily meant to be a personal attack, and if you felt it was I apologize. But you do have a history of not being above using RL events as a way to build a case on someone.
In MXV I was pretty furious with you actually. It was when I had inadvertently offended Voltgloss and was trying to be extremely sincere in apologizing to him. I felt really, really horrible. And then you came in and said that my apologies were a scum maneuver to for me to gain credit. Man! That was just horrible. I didn't know at the time, but you were scum and you knew both volt and I were town. So you must have known my apologies and feeling horrible about it were sincere, but you painted it as "scum."
So perhaps a little bit of angst has carried over into this case, but I hope not. I don't think you are a jerk, but sometimes your posts make you seem that way. Mine do to. I super offended voltgloss remember and I have probably offended you know, but there you go.
I remember the MXV issue. I apologized for that before, and do now again. I honestly didn't mean to paint you that way in that game, but I know you felt I did, and it went that way. I think you can understand the frustration at not being believed when sincere, or even worse, when you think scum is using it against you. So we both know what that's like.
We're not the only ones that come across jerky. I don't think you do that much, actually. Me, sure.
Scum will use whatever they can to win, I guess. I recall scum!shraeye faking not knowing the game started in one of the blitzes to good use.
I think in this game, you and me are town vs. town.
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I think he means when you called him a jerk.
I don't remember the eevee-galz interaction
Yep, pretty sure he remembers the other thing. :)
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Oh right. It was easy to miss, but I found it:
Ok. I'm finished up RVS'ing (I hope).
I'm going to be away for awhile - will have my phone on me and will still be able to post, but expect the number of posts to drop significantly.
Then you make some jokey posts that don't really do anything (you said this yourself). Then you announce you've got to go and will only be phone-posting. Now, townGalz is known for being present and active, and I would assume scumGalz would want to try to replicate that. However, you announcing that felt a little forced to me given there was no active discussion going (and short jokey posts you could also do from your phone quite conveniently if you so desired). I know I want to announce the reasons for my legit periods of no access when I'm scum, so I can for example use the time I can "lurk" without seeming suspicious on actual situations I WANT to lurk in.
I do think Eevee deserves to be called out for his post about Galz, at least as much as me pointing out the same thing on raerae.
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It's post 56. It's a non issue now, but curious that you didn't feel it was worth mentioning when you picked out something of Ashersky's that was for all intents the same.
My point is, Ashersky isn't the person to play with blinders on. It's easy to see what you want to see. It's a lot harder to see the truth.
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I think he means when you called him a jerk.
I don't remember the eevee-galz interaction
Yep, pretty sure he remembers the other thing. :)
Yeah that was a bit derp.
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I'm back from the scum conference and dinner party. I'm going to get caught up starting from the air-tight case Ashersky has presented against me. Even though we're 27 hours and 12 pages into this game, I'm going to respond post by post.
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Nice amount if action for a weekend night. Glad to come back to that.
I am okay with the Eevee wagon dying off, it served its purpose, I think, to get people talking. Still leaning scummish on Eevs, but not enough to lynch at this point, given we have time.
So, vote: raerae.
This is an actual vote. The tldr reason: IIOA.
I welcome folks going back over the thread to focus on her. I even gave her an opportunity to change. Her posts fall into three categories: jokes, notations, and questions.
I do not subscribe to the jokes=scum theory that others do, so I pass on those. I do think they are an easy way to up the post count, but it's clearly her personality, so whatever.
The second two, though, are much more scum-style postings. When all you do is note other people's posts/opinions/votes without giving your own opinions and votes, and when you continually ask questions of other instead of answering those questions yourself, your are more likely to be mafia. This is because you seem engaged but never actually have to take a stand. The only time raerae engaged on a topic was when I said she was scummy sounding.
So that's the case on raerae, and is enough for me to vote.
Gave me the opportunity to change? Gave me the opportunity to change? Sweetheart, I don't need your permission or encouragement to change anything. Additionally, how dumb and scummy does it look for me to suddenly change my snarky joke-y self? I will not change because you find my play offensive. No chance in the seven hells of that happening.
I rarely take post count into account. It's interesting when people post them but I don't care enough to do a post count myself. If I don't care enough about it to make cases on other people about it, do you really, really think I think about it in regards to myself? No. Just no.
I do ask people questions. That is how I form reads on people. I ask them questions and analyze how they answer. I generate conversation.
That is just a blatant lie. I stood up against the Eevee lynch in regards to both Jimmmmm and Robz' arguments. Drew attention to Jimmmmm being snippy with Lio. Sure, I haven't voted, haven't said XX IS TOWN and YY IS SCUM yet because I don't have strong enough reads on anybody to go crazy town with crappy arguments voting everybody who rubs me the wrong way.
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
You can officially never use meta arguments again. If you say someone is playing like town that also means they're scum trying to play like town but if they aren't playing like town then they're scum. So in ashersky world, everybody is scum.
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(I'm thinking of Lekkit in Major Arcana II Buffy Mafia)
Whoops, FTFM.
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Man, read my post again.
IIOA is a thing. You are saying give her a pass because that's just her. I refuse. She can start offering analysis and taking stands if she's town. I am. Doesn't matter on D1 if she is wrong or right. It's about contributing. She's contributed as much as invisiyuma, but with ten times the posts.
Stop giving me permission to do things. That is awful way to play this game. It is condescending and presumptuous. It is an unattractive quality and I would be very turned off to this game if I were not such a stubborn person who thrives off proving people wrong when they think they know better how to be me than I do.
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Lynch mafia, not scum, but okay. That's actually ok, I would just make it more clear you are voting her to discourage her from playing like she has, not because you think her playing like that makes her more likely to be scum.
Eevee, I find you to be a reasonable person, if I were to suddenly stop being me, wouldn't I immediately be jumped for not being a funnier, more attractive, version of shraeye?
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ashersky, I think you just described raerae's town playstyle and voted her over it.
Jimmm, what do you think of me now, after you've seen my responses to your case and also heard what other people think of it?
I like the mom saloon case.
Maybe, but isn't that scum's plan? To play like their town selves?
You can officially never use meta arguments again. If you say someone is playing like town that also means they're scum trying to play like town but if they aren't playing like town then they're scum. So in ashersky world, everybody is scum.
I'm not sure whether I buy into ash's case on you, but "She's acting like Town raerae so clearly she's scum" isn't it. I think what he meant by that was that just because you're acting like Town raerae doesn't necessarily make you Town. His actual case had more to it than that.
Personally I'm finding you particularly hard to read because so far you've always come across pretty much the same to me, that is no-nonsense, won't take crap from anyone, not afraid to be a bit condescending, and generally more reactive to what people say than trying to build cases. And you've been Town twice, and mislynched the only time you were lynchable. I think your playstyle might generally go against you when you're Town (especially while you're still relatively new) because you're probably more likely than average to be mislynched, but it might help you when you're scum because you can do the same things and people might just say "Oh that's just raerae."
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Final comment: @raerae, why are you uncomfortable to be linked with shraeye? I mean you guys post over the same time frame (which is reasonable), and have some level of conversation between yourselves. You've also taken the same (or very similar stances) regarding, for example, the contradiction case, and Ashersky's lack of case. So, at the moment you both kind of blend.
I just want to make sure my thoughts are being seen as separate from his. I don't want us to get lumped in together because of IRL stuff. Yes, we say some of the same things and agree sometimes but that isn't all the time and I want to make very sure that we are seen as two different people.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
You're an ass. I'll submit my eating/sleeping/shitting schedule to you by 9am tomorrow. Please let me know when it has been approved.
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Uh, I really don 't think ashersky is scum. I think he's making a lot of sense. His post about the Eevee case serving its purpose really resonated with me. And I totally get what he's saying about raerae.
I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.
I also don't like that it's coming from lurker extraordinaire Glooble.
This whole post confused me. Here is what I got from it: ashersky isn't scum, he's making sense, you like what he has to say but you don't like his case? Hopefully you've clarified this in another post I'll read soon, if not, can you explain it? Sorry if I'm just misunderstanding but I need some clarification.
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I'm leaving now for dinner and a birthday party but promise to respond to this absurd case against me either when we return or tomorrow (this is dependent on the amount of alcohol in my system at the time of return). Don't kill me while I'm away, please.
Classic scum dodge.
sometimes you are a jerk. perhaps raerae, and the rest of us as well, should all plan our regular lives around your mafia cases on us. When are you free for you to suspect me, my calendar is a bit busy, but I am sure we can work out a time for you to be suspicious of me too...
Or perhaps you once again just have blinders on. Once you decide they are scum, they are scum. Case closed. If only you were right more than 37.5% correct lynch rate that you currently have going
WARNING! FLUFF POST!
Yuma, you make my heart happy.
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Uh, I really don 't think ashersky is scum. I think he's making a lot of sense. His post about the Eevee case serving its purpose really resonated with me. And I totally get what he's saying about raerae.
I'm trying not to rely on metas as much, because they haven't served me too well lately. I like what ashersky has to say, Is ee where it's coming from, so I don't think he's scummy. So I don't like this case.
I also don't like that it's coming from lurker extraordinaire Glooble.
This whole post confused me. Here is what I got from it: ashersky isn't scum, he's making sense, you like what he has to say but you don't like his case? Hopefully you've clarified this in another post I'll read soon, if not, can you explain it? Sorry if I'm just misunderstanding but I need some clarification.
He didn't like Glooble's case on ash.
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Ok, seriously cool the name-calling or I will pull this mafia game over. Golden rule is in effect. You're all better than this.
/modscold
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In rereading raerae, I disagree with one basic point about ashersky's case. I don't think that raerae's questions were IIoA.
When she asks if ashersky is openly sheeping Jimmmm's Eevee-contradiction case, that's analysis not information. She may be essentially offering you an out in the same moment that she criticizes your play, but that doesn't mean it isn't a criticism of what she sees as scummy behavior.
However, she did take a while to finally comment on the contradiction case. Now, there are two parts to this:
1. It was after ashersky's "coaching". Which was more of a criticism of the "prove it" post than anything. In fact he even notes that she can ask questions. At no point in his "coaching" do I see him criticize raerae's lack of taking stands as the scummy part, rather her "giving orders". I (personally) think this significantly weakens the point that she only took a stand after being criticized for looking scummy.
2. It was just after shraeye had commented on it to the same effect. He claimed to not have seen the contradiction argument. Now, maybe raerae didn't see it either? But she had quoted it (in particular when she questioned ashersky's sheeping of it). However, she only took a stand on "it's clearly not a contradiction" after shraeye already did.
The end result here, is that I'm finding raerae a little scummy there. I think this largely played into my previous analysis where I mentioned the intertwining of shraeye and raerae.
I'll also note posts at 215/216. In this instance raerae has the same reaction as shraeye within like 11 minutes of each other.
Personally I was inclined to view both of these as more raerae/shraeye thinking similarly. BUT, they are the only stands she's taken where she didn't ask questions. AND, as noted she had plenty of time to have that reaction to the contradiction case before shraeye did, but did not. I could see a raerae is scum shraeye is town situation here...I'm not sold, but I'm happy to put raerae into the minor suspicion category for now.
I can see your point but just want to give you guys some background information before you put too many eggs in this basket. Shraeye and I are dating but we live 19 hours away from each other. We don't get a ton of time to be together in person and we are right now. When we are in the same place at the same time we will almost always be online at the same time and not online at the same time. Right now is a different story as we are playing Pandemic with TheMunch. As I posted before, shraeye and I think similarly so if I posted something similar to what he did minutes apart that's just one of us reading/typing faster than the other.
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Lynch mafia, not scum, but okay. That's actually ok, I would just make it more clear you are voting her to discourage her from playing like she has, not because you think her playing like that makes her more likely to be scum.
Eevee, I find you to be a reasonable person, if I were to suddenly stop being me, wouldn't I immediately be jumped for not being a funnier, more attractive, version of shraeye?
For sure, yes. Again, I dont agree with how ashersky described your play or with the conclusion he drew from that description. He might be right though, I dont have a town read on you either. All I know is that I'm satisfied with your contributions and think you play like you did in buffy and the latest blitz, maybe with a tad more confidence I assume stems from the experience you've gotten.
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Lynch mafia, not scum, but okay. That's actually ok, I would just make it more clear you are voting her to discourage her from playing like she has, not because you think her playing like that makes her more likely to be scum.
Eevee, I find you to be a reasonable person, if I were to suddenly stop being me, wouldn't I immediately be jumped for not being a funnier, more attractive, version of shraeye?
Hah, this is funny. And attractive. Oh raerae.
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Hey look, while catching up, I found that Eevee meant what I thought he meant with the Dsell thing.
Eevee, you're not my biggest scumread!
Guys, don't lynch Eevee today!
So...who is?
I'm keeping that a secret. I've found I prefer to let things develop a bit before opining publicly, as it helps prevent confirmation bias as new information comes out.
hmmm... I don't know how I feel about this. Mostly because if you are town then I want your knowledge so I can compare it to mine as I think you are a pretty solid scum hunter, but then again like you said, that would result in some confirmation bias... I guess I am ok with it... You say you have found this out? Where have you used this technique before?
I feel like the first time I used it was unintentionally in blitz4, but I didn't really put it to full effect. I also was able to use it in Buffy when I subbed in maybe 7 or so days after the start. So I was able to read up on 7 days of material and put all my comments/reads at the end. It really helped me zero in on scum in that game.
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Mom salon is sounding towny here. Generally speaking, "I did that as scum before" arguments is second-level scum play. No offense mom salon, but probably not pulling it unless you're veteran scum partners coached.
I disagree with your third sentence here. I was just scum with mcmcsalot (I'd like to think that my record as scum proves I'm good at playing scum) and I was very impressed by him. I think I saw maybe 1 or 2 slight newbie mistakes; I think he could pull off this 'second-level scum play' you're talking about.
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Ok, seriously cool the name-calling or I will pull this mafia game over. Golden rule is in effect. You're all better than this.
/modscold
OK, OK, OK, I walked away, cooled my heels, did some marketing stuffs and am ready to actually play some mafia. Sorry for that multi-post explosion, guys.
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Mom salon is sounding towny here. Generally speaking, "I did that as scum before" arguments is second-level scum play. No offense mom salon, but probably not pulling it unless you're veteran scum partners coached.
I disagree with your third sentence here. I was just scum with mcmcsalot (I'd like to think that my record as scum proves I'm good at playing scum) and I was very impressed by him. I think I saw maybe 1 or 2 slight newbie mistakes; I think he could pull off this 'second-level scum play' you're talking about.
Shraeye, I definitely think you are very, very good at playing scum, so I do accept your opinion on this. Mom salon, you're now back at a null read.
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Okay so now that I'm taking my focus off Eevee (for now anyway), I should look at some other people.
First, the easiest, sparky.
So sparky here could be an easy target for LaLL, with his measly two posts. I believe sparky kind of has a history of lurking, but two posts out of over 300 looks pretty bad. In his first post he says a couple of things, gives a couple of opinions, but like he says, he "doesn't add a whole lot". In his second, and latest post, he promises to be more involved. And then nothing. Granted, it hasn't been THAT long since then, it was ~14 hours and 90 posts ago, but a lot has happened since then and overall, and some contribution would be nice. I'll be looking for some genuine scum-hunting from sparky to make up for his non-involvement so far.
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Next, Dsell. Now Dsell gets some Town points for his first post. I don't think anyone's calling him obvTown, but if he's scum it was a clever post, and quite cleverly worded I think. But let's give him a pinch of Town cred and move on. He hasn't contributed terribly much to the game (other than, you know, being the catalyst for much of the conversation so far), with a total of 10 posts. The next three after his first one were fairly pointless posts about the setup and what information scum have etc. Not much to say from that, I think. His next two posts were about other games, so irrelevant. So all up he has a total of 4 posts about this actual game (not counting his first one).
First he says that Eevee doesn't seem like Town Eevee, but doesn't say why he thinks that. Based on his reactions to cases on him, he implies, but nothing more specific than that. He's not convinced by the contradiction case, Town Eevee could have been accidentally digging himself into a hole. Then he says my case is a Towny case, even if it's wrong, he doesn't trust ash, and it's not a blitz game so running off for IRL reasons is not scummy. So a couple of thoughts, but nothing particularly new or that helpful.
I think if Dsell hadn't scored Town points for his first post, people may well be suspecting him for his lack of contribution. But, I haven't picked up on anything scummy from him yet, so still on the Town side for his first post, I think, but I'd like more of a contribution from him as well.
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I remember the MXV issue. I apologized for that before, and do now again. I honestly didn't mean to paint you that way in that game, but I know you felt I did, and it went that way. I think you can understand the frustration at not being believed when sincere, or even worse, when you think scum is using it against you. So we both know what that's like.
We're not the only ones that come across jerky. I don't think you do that much, actually. Me, sure.
Scum will use whatever they can to win, I guess. I recall scum!shraeye faking not knowing the game started in one of the blitzes to good use.
I think in this game, you and me are town vs. town.
yes, no need to apologize again let bygones be ... (what is a bygone anyways?) As for this while I disagree with your case on raerae (at least most of it) it had no bearing on my read on you. This could very well be town v town,
In regard to comparing this situation against that of Galz-Eevee; 1 I didn't notice it before, so I didn't comment on it, but 2. even if I had I believe them to be very different in that when Eevee wrote:
Then you make some jokey posts that don't really do anything (you said this yourself). Then you announce you've got to go and will only be phone-posting. Now, townGalz is known for being present and active, and I would assume scumGalz would want to try to replicate that. However, you announcing that felt a little forced to me given there was no active discussion going (and short jokey posts you could also do from your phone quite conveniently if you so desired). I know I want to announce the reasons for my legit periods of no access when I'm scum, so I can for example use the time I can "lurk" without seeming suspicious on actual situations I WANT to lurk in.
he explains it, he goes into what he found was scummy, the joke and a forced announcement of leaving and while I disagree with eevee's interpretation of it, it much more different that ash's "classic scummy maneuver" which is vague and leaves a lot up to interpretation. For instance I interpreted "scummy" to him as being that raerae was going to a party and getting drunk and didn't want to respond until she was sober. One was saying a post was scummy, I interpreted the other as saying RL events were scummy.
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Okay, just caught up.
I think I mentioned this before, but here it is again: I'm using a somewhat new approach to this game, which I am calling the Straightforward Strategy, or SFS (see what I did there?). My approach to this game, rather than going so strongly off of metas, is to look at two things: 1) Real evidence, and 2) What people are saying.
1) Real evidence -- Something like, Dsell's station-aligned thing with Eevee. I actually think Dsell gets more than a pinch of town cred here. I agree with Jimm that other than that, Dsell would actually seem pretty scummy for underposting, but this evidence is really, really acquitting, I think.
2) What people are saying -- if someone says something that is logical, that makes sense, that I think hits upon valid points and is relevant, I am going to think of that person as less scummy. This is a little bit of a change of pace for me. Usually, when someone says something anti-rational, irrelevant, and over the top, I think of them as less scummy, because scum need to be more careful. But this approach has not worked lately.
Here are some noteworthy recent comments:
I'm not sure whether I buy into ash's case on you, but "She's acting like Town raerae so clearly she's scum" isn't it. I think what he meant by that was that just because you're acting like Town raerae doesn't necessarily make you Town. His actual case had more to it than that.
Personally I'm finding you particularly hard to read because so far you've always come across pretty much the same to me, that is no-nonsense, won't take crap from anyone, not afraid to be a bit condescending, and generally more reactive to what people say than trying to build cases. And you've been Town twice, and mislynched the only time you were lynchable. I think your playstyle might generally go against you when you're Town (especially while you're still relatively new) because you're probably more likely than average to be mislynched, but it might help you when you're scum because you can do the same things and people might just say "Oh that's just raerae."
This is the definitive opinion on raerae. And it actually resonates with me, because I've found that the particular playstyle I was using in, let's see, M-X and M-XIV in particular, made me an early lynch target as town. I was town, but I was more abrasive at that point in time, and it really came back to get me. And I kept thinking, "Can't they see, this is consistent with town!Robz?" And perhaps they should have, but it wasn't entirely their fault of course.
So, I was just about to make the case that shraeye has been defending raerae on the grounds that raerae is just like this, she's being herself. And this is what shraeye did as scum in the previous blitz game. But I just looked back to find evidence of shraeye doing this, and I actually can't, at all. So I don't know what it means that in my head I picture shraeye defending raerae all over the place, but I can't actually find it in the thread. Did I hallucinate this? I'm wondering if this mental bleed-through from the discussion in another thread about hosting a newbie game.
I was going to vote shraeye over this, but, as I said, I have zero evidence this happened. As far as I can tell now, it didn't.
I still think ashersky had a point, even if he wasn't entirely right, and he's just not reading scum to me.
My biggest townreads right now are Jimm and theorel. I do find myself nodding in agreement with what theorel is saying.
Galzria is registering a lot less than usual in this game, to me, and I do find that weird. And it irks me that his main goal so far seems to be to kill the wagon on Eevee, which I thought was certainly a valid wagon on the scummiest person. Perhaps Eevee would have been/will be a mislynch, but it reeks of scum trying to build towncred by killing wagon on townie. Of course I guess with the multiple scumteams thing, there's like an extra wrinkle in there. Still, since I think the Eevee case was solid-ish, I don't love that Galz worked to kill it.
I'm going to Vote: Cuzz, though, because he's now the person to whom I can't attribute anything. It's really hard to beat Glooble in that regard, and Cuzz is doing it. So.
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As I said before, this game started on a Friday night, and so all the activity so far has been over a weekend. I've been vaguely following along, but mostly skimming and don't have any strong opinions yet. I'll catch up in full tomorrow, but I'm sometimes a bit Friskian in my weekend activity.
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Okay going to simply go through and see what I can get down about each person, a few other people are doing it and it seems to be very helpful.
Ashersky: I noticed you said you had a big scum read on eevee before jimm ever made his case. Then you confirmed by voting just after jimm's argument was made. Many people said you were posting scum reads on people while providing no evidence, I tend to agree and was looking for where you remedied this and it is nowhere to be found. Next your bickering with raerae which seemed very scummy on both your parts though what peeked my interest was jimm's dismissal of the argument explaining it wasn't pro town. While I agree this is not a pro town argument, if you in fact are scum, this is also not a very pro scum argument. You your self pointed out a time in which you coached raerae, although I don't think you did, I DO think jimm coached you. Much later, you've come back to attacking raerae but with a better case, this is either still scum!ash trying to force a mislynch on raerae, or town!ash still thinking raerae is scum and wants to make his case. I'm not going to comment on the name calling argument because I believe this was an emotional argument and could have come from town or scum.
Okay I plan to finish this but it takes a loong time as I'm actually using the all page function and ctr/find'ing all the post by that player. I have to go do some things for school, it's my second day back so I won't be available till later in the day for the rest of the week.
I'm gonna leave this with a Vote: Ashersky I get a good feel like hes scum and still wary about Jimm because of his interaction.
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Robz, I would argue in multiple scum team situations scum has a lot less incentive to buddy up to non-teammates and defend them strongly from getting lynched. Pretty catastrophic if they end up flipping scum of the other theam!
Dsell
Robz put it well - very scummy if it wasn't for the fact the incident actually earns him a ton of town credit. Also, if he scared enough to fake the question at scum, he'd surely care enough to post more and appear less obvscummy. So yes, strongest town read, easily.
Robz
Says a lot of stuff I agree with, maybe even more than usual. Don't know if that's a towntell or scumtell on meta level (I think town, but not sure), I still think plays very protown and is not a likely place for my vote today.
Galzria
Nah, slight scumread. Like, better than to hit scum than in a random lynch, but not the best place to drop down my vote.
theorel
Don''t get a major townread from his theory stuff, but no scum read either. He is playing like I'd expect scumtheorel to play, but that is pretty much how I'd expect towntheorel to play too.
Jimm
I've talked about Jimm already. His case on me was really trying from early on, and I think he really believed in it. But well, scum has even more incentive to scumhunt than town here. So.. Either way, again not a good lynch target, he is definitely an asset for town.
ashersky
Frustration is usually a town trait. No read still, and it is helpfur for town that he is taking strong positions - identifying the alignment of players like this later is easier than trying to read a lurker.
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
Sparky
Has the tendency to lurk like this, but.. Worth noting, we've never seen town sparky! It's very possible he'd post shorter posts more often.
Glooble
Has a low post count but has made sense to me when he has posted.
I know there are other people, but got tired midway!
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One small correction, Eevee. Sparky was town in M-XI. Well, he replaced into M-XI, taking Voltgloss's town slot. But you were dead I think already.
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One small correction, Eevee. Sparky was town in M-XI. Well, he replaced into M-XI, taking Voltgloss's town slot. But you were dead I think already.
and was pretty active--100 posts for the whole game was pretty middle of the pack--given that he subbed in late and was killed night 6 out of 12. But then again, that game was so crazy it is hard to use as a frame of reference. It is worth noting that he has been pretty much absent from the other ongoing game MXVIII--but as it is ongoing that is all I will say about that.
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Request Replacement - This game is ridiculous.
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Luckily I have a replacement on standby.
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Request Replacement - This game is ridiculous.
Ridiculous in what way? I think it's pretty run-of-the-mill. I mean, in an exciting way, but nothing like insane happened.
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Oh hey guys!!!
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Lynch the new guy.
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Looks like we have our universal backup in here!
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Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player(said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
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Looks like we have our universal backup in here!
JOKES~!
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In all seriousness though, I have discussed no roles with Shraeye-Rae, and I have been following the game to the best of my ability. To be fair though I dont remember Sparky being that loud? Maybe someone will correct me but its early enough, I will be and have been forming my own reads.
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...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
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TheMunch has replaced Sparky.
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Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player(said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
No no no. This is not the same thing. I waited for Eevee to respond--and warned others to do the same--because I didn't want anybody explaining what they thought Eevee meant. BEcause then Eevee could just copy that. After Eevee gave his statement, I enthusiastically gave my view of it, and asked others to do the same. So I think you're mixed up here in reading this as an anti-town thing to do.
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...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
I am unoffended, but I find it interesting that you are too busy to offer real reads, yet here you are when the opportunity for a joke appears! So I guess you're following pretty closely, just not saying anything? Interesting strategy, I wonder what your Alignment is.
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...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
I am unoffended, but I find it interesting that you are too busy to offer real reads, yet here you are when the opportunity for a joke appears! So I guess you're following pretty closely, just not saying anything? Interesting strategy, I wonder what your Alignment is.
Yeah, I thought someone might mention this, but that quote was too good to ignore (and of course I only meant it as friendly joshing). And as I said, I am not following closely, I am vaguely skimming. I'm behind on all the real substance of the last lots of pages, and will catch up tomorrow and be useful then :).
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
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My experience of multiple scum teams is that it's easier for scum to actually scumhunt. So in a sense that makes it harder for us to figure out who's scum based on who seems to be genuinely looking for scum. But there hasn't been terribly much theory talk as I think the majority of the thread has stemmed from Dsell's calling out of Eevee for not saying he was Station-Aligned.
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
I'm not sure I understand the question?
I'm pretty confident in saying there's no information which should not be talked about in single-scum-team games which should be talked about in multi-scum-team games. In particular, this might be a single-scum-team game for all we know.
Is there information which should not be discussed given multiple teams, which could be discussed in single-teams? Well, outside of the identity PRs, I'm of the opinion that most information is fair-game for discussion, and tends to help town as much if not more than scum. I don't think that ceases to be true in multi-ball. I can't think of anything off-hand that is good to talk about in single-team games and bad to talk about in multi-team games.
So, what about multi-team games makes it special? Well the one item brought up several times is that the scum can legitimately scum-hunt. This is pretty big IMO, because a big part of my town-reads generally come from the feeling that people are trying to "solve" the set-up. A second item (also already mentioned) is that scum are less apt to make the "buddy up to a known townie" thing...because they don't know if a given player is in fact town.
One interesting thing to keep in mind here: we don't know if there are 2 teams. There may be 1 team + SK, which plays so much like 1 team that it's near equivalent. Of course this depends on scum-knowledge of set-up (which is as limited as town knowledge). But, particularly if Robz' conjecture is correct (i.e. 4 scum total regardless of teams), then the scum KNOW whether we're currently playing multi-ball or not.
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
I have to admit that in the whole two games I've played, I've found theory talk painfully boring and unhelpful. Fully admit I am probably wrong in this aspect but still, that's how I feel. Mr. Munch, seeing as how you've been following this game, any reads already?
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man this game is just swarming with twin claims!
shraeye, thanks for your explanation about your new strategy.
I guess I like it as town, because it helps you scum hunt. But I am not liking it as much if you are scum, because it allows you to coast without offering any real insights up for analysis--especially analysis later in the game when we can go back and compare your reads to your actions and to your reads later in the game.
So I guess what I am saying is that if that is how you are going to play, I am going to hope you are town, but don't be surprised if you get read scummy by others for playing such.
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One interesting thing to keep in mind here: we don't know if there are 2 teams. There may be 1 team + SK, which plays so much like 1 team that it's near equivalent. Of course this depends on scum-knowledge of set-up (which is as limited as town knowledge). But, particularly if Robz' conjecture is correct (i.e. 4 scum total regardless of teams), then the scum KNOW whether we're currently playing multi-ball or not.
If there is an SK, he knows the set-up, right? Like, he's the only person who knows the set-up.
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
I actually find this scummy. I'm not sure what good discussion of the different teams does for town. At this point, town has literally no way of knowing whether it is 2 scum teams or 1 scum team + SK.
Scum, however, might be interested in getting people to talk about this, to try to divine which setup is more likely (given that scum has more knowledge to start with). Don't get me wrong, this may be very beneficial conversation on a later day, but I don't see how this discussion is at all helpful on day 1. It feels like a distraction.
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
Also, it's a good thing Grujah's not here.
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
I have to admit that in the whole two games I've played, I've found theory talk painfully boring and unhelpful. Fully admit I am probably wrong in this aspect but still, that's how I feel. Mr. Munch, seeing as how you've been following this game, any reads already?
I think the main purposes of theory talk are to get the game going at the start and to help "solve" the setup. But generally once there's specific game-related things to talk about that's generally more interesting.
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As a frequent scum player, I can say I found theory talk a great way to pretend to participate. I'm sure it has its uses, but for now I'm just as happy to be shot of it.
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As a frequent scum player, I can say I found theory talk a great way to pretend to participate. I'm sure it has its uses, but for now I'm just as happy to be shot of it.
So without theory talk, how are you going to pretend to participate?
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To finish up my robz post, I see the difference between your blitz play style and in this one, askin follow up questions vs waiting for responses. Which seems pro town enough.
Phone posting for now, will be back for some more analysis at 3
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Maybe I missed this too: Has there been any theory talk whatsoever? It seems like the normal chatting and scum hunting has been going on but no discussion of the multiple scum team stuff? I dont think I've played a mutliple scum team game and I dont really know whats best when it comes to what information should actually be discussed and what stuff will actually help scum more than town. Just curious.
I actually find this scummy. I'm not sure what good discussion of the different teams does for town. At this point, town has literally no way of knowing whether it is 2 scum teams or 1 scum team + SK.
Scum, however, might be interested in getting people to talk about this, to try to divine which setup is more likely (given that scum has more knowledge to start with). Don't get me wrong, this may be very beneficial conversation on a later day, but I don't see how this discussion is at all helpful on day 1. It feels like a distraction.
I don't if it's scummy. It seems like we jumped out of RVS super quick so easy to miss what little theory talk there was, plus it seems genuine to me if he has, in fact, never played in a multi-scum team game. That definitely adds another layer of uncertainty to the game so it makes sense, if you're a person who finds value in theory talk, to talk, or at least ask, about theory discussion.
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Wouldn't theory talk help to find scum, as dsell said, town has no way of knowing the number of scum, scum would at least know they exist, as would sk. So in a way the most informed person about scum teams and sk would be the scum teams and sk. So town is the one who is losing out here, we know nothing and shoul benefit from talk of it. It can't benefit sk, as they already know the setup. The only thing is would knowledge of another scum team or sk benefit the scum teams more than town. This I don't know as I've never played a multi scum team game.
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I don't think there's any theory talk we can have, beyond what's been said. If someone disagrees, by all means, talk about theory.
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Seems to me the thing people are doing is writing up something about each player. So I'm gonna try that.
ashersky: Seems a bit scummy for the case against Raerae. I understand what he's saying but I don't agree with it. I agree we shouldn't always assume "raerae is just being raerae". However I don't think she has acted scummy at all. She has added to the converstation with questions about others, and has stated her beliefs on other things as well. Her defense was also very convincing. I think I remember him being on the Eevee wagon. I didn't like the Eevee wagon.
Robz888: Also on the Eevee wagon. I think he's being a bit over-accusatory. Has been on the lurker's case a bit too much, as have others. At this point the lurkers have had good excuses. Talked about the setup a bunch too. Stuff with the number of mafia is interesting. I'm not as sure about 4 as he is. what about 4 with SK? or even 3-2? He would know more about this if he was scum. Alo would be more likely to talk about it.
Yuma: I think he's station. People talk about invisiyuma lurking, getting away with it, and then winning as scum in the past. He's been talking a lot here though, and it has been helpful stuff.
Eevee: Totally buy his case. I'd go as far to say that he'd be more likely to say "I'm town" post 1 as town than as scum. I can't see him say "I'm station" either. So that case seems really weak to me so I suspect the people who made it. I thought his response to attack was adequate too.
Shraeye: No. Idea. At. All. I actually can't remember his posts too well. Should re-read.
Cuzz:
I am unoffended, but I find it interesting that you are too busy to offer real reads, yet here you are when the opportunity for a joke appears! So I guess you're following pretty closely, just not saying anything? Interesting strategy, I wonder what your Alignment is.
And as I said, I am not following closely, I am vaguely skimming. I'm behind on all the real substance of the last lots of pages, and will catch up tomorrow and be useful then :).
Said he would be useful tomorrow yesterday. If he hasn't been useful by the end of the day than I think he will be the only person worthy of suspicion on the basis of lurking.
Glooble: Well, I guess he hasn't said whole lot either. Slight town read based on he said things which make sense and I agree with.
Raerae: Stood up for herself more viciously than I would think scum would. As I said before I think she has said useful things, asked useful questions. Probably station.
liopoil: clearly town. Agree with him on absolutely everything.
mcmcsalot: Pretty much no read. maybe slightly more scummy than station, but if I had to guess I'd say town because there are more town than scum. Oh wait, he said I was scummy once. Nevermind guys he's scum! ;)
Jimmmmm: I still think he's a bit scummy for the same reasons that I voted him for, but less so now. More stuff has come to light sice then, so Unvote.
theorel: Probably has provided the most, and the highest quality analysis. And I agree with it, so I think he's station.
sparky5856 TheMunch. I couldn't figure anything out based on what little sparky said, but I think I person would be slightly less likely to withdraw if they were scum, simply because I think it would be more fun to be scum than station/town. TheMunch has also seemed towny to me.
Dsell: Only way that he is scum is if he a) was told by Joth in QT that the town was actually station. (unlikely I think) b) He guessed that there would be some flavor name for the town, because there are flavor names for the scum (mirror, maquis, changling). Or maybe there was something in his PM that mentioned "the station" instead of "the town". The more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that one of these happened. However, if it did he still would have had to get the idea to do this, and have the nerve to go for it. Then again, say he is scum and was rather clever with that post. This would be a reason for him to lurk, because he knows tht he can likely get away with it. Still, I think he is town.
Galzria: Also pretty null. Maybe slight town.
on theory: I think knowledge on the setup helps scum more than town. It lets them make much more educated nightkills. More than it helps town make educated lynch's. This is because the scum already know more about the setup than us.
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Did I do it right guys? ;D
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Seems to me the thing people are doing is writing up something about each player. So I'm gonna try that.
ashersky: Seems a bit scummy for the case against Raerae. I understand what he's saying but I don't agree with it. I agree we shouldn't always assume "raerae is just being raerae". However I don't think she has acted scummy at all. She has added to the converstation with questions about others, and has stated her beliefs on other things as well. Her defense was also very convincing. I think I remember him being on the Eevee wagon. I didn't like the Eevee wagon.
Robz888: Also on the Eevee wagon. I think he's being a bit over-accusatory. Has been on the lurker's case a bit too much, as have others. At this point the lurkers have had good excuses. Talked about the setup a bunch too. Stuff with the number of mafia is interesting. I'm not as sure about 4 as he is. what about 4 with SK? or even 3-2? He would know more about this if he was scum. Alo would be more likely to talk about it.
Yuma: I think he's station. People talk about invisiyuma lurking, getting away with it, and then winning as scum in the past. He's been talking a lot here though, and it has been helpful stuff.
Eevee: Totally buy his case. I'd go as far to say that he'd be more likely to say "I'm town" post 1 as town than as scum. I can't see him say "I'm station" either. So that case seems really weak to me so I suspect the people who made it. I thought his response to attack was adequate too.
Shraeye: No. Idea. At. All. I actually can't remember his posts too well. Should re-read.
Cuzz:
I am unoffended, but I find it interesting that you are too busy to offer real reads, yet here you are when the opportunity for a joke appears! So I guess you're following pretty closely, just not saying anything? Interesting strategy, I wonder what your Alignment is.
And as I said, I am not following closely, I am vaguely skimming. I'm behind on all the real substance of the last lots of pages, and will catch up tomorrow and be useful then :).
Said he would be useful tomorrow yesterday. If he hasn't been useful by the end of the day than I think he will be the only person worthy of suspicion on the basis of lurking.
Glooble: Well, I guess he hasn't said whole lot either. Slight town read based on he said things which make sense and I agree with.
Raerae: Stood up for herself more viciously than I would think scum would. As I said before I think she has said useful things, asked useful questions. Probably station.
liopoil: clearly town. Agree with him on absolutely everything.
mcmcsalot: Pretty much no read. maybe slightly more scummy than station, but if I had to guess I'd say town because there are more town than scum. Oh wait, he said I was scummy once. Nevermind guys he's scum! ;)
Jimmmmm: I still think he's a bit scummy for the same reasons that I voted him for, but less so now. More stuff has come to light sice then, so Unvote.
theorel: Probably has provided the most, and the highest quality analysis. And I agree with it, so I think he's station.
sparky5856 TheMunch. I couldn't figure anything out based on what little sparky said, but I think I person would be slightly less likely to withdraw if they were scum, simply because I think it would be more fun to be scum than station/town. TheMunch has also seemed towny to me.
Dsell: Only way that he is scum is if he a) was told by Joth in QT that the town was actually station. (unlikely I think) b) He guessed that there would be some flavor name for the town, because there are flavor names for the scum (mirror, maquis, changling). Or maybe there was something in his PM that mentioned "the station" instead of "the town". The more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that one of these happened. However, if it did he still would have had to get the idea to do this, and have the nerve to go for it. Then again, say he is scum and was rather clever with that post. This would be a reason for him to lurk, because he knows tht he can likely get away with it. Still, I think he is town.
Galzria: Also pretty null. Maybe slight town.
on theory: I think knowledge on the setup helps scum more than town. It lets them make much more educated nightkills. More than it helps town make educated lynch's. This is because the scum already know more about the setup than us.
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Did I do it right guys? ;D
Good post. Town read.
NB: ashersky, Robz, jimmmmm scum team would be a good one.
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Yuma, this one is less indepth as coming from phone. You have some solid analysis coming out early game. Many of your posts were about the raerae, ashersky debacle so no reads of of that. The only thing that gives me a read on you is that you felt I was scummy, said I made the scummiest post in the game and then as the arguing started you seem to have forgot your post about me. As did whomever you asked to comment who was scummier, me or eevee. That gives me a bit of a scum read as you tried to push a case on me and when noone picked it up you dropped it.
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I doubt newbie scum could fake it that well, town read on liopoil from that long and helpful post.
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I am way way way behind. I feel like the forums are going crazy today. I've got the day off, and will be here to catch up by tonight, but since this is the biggest of the games I'm in, it'll have to wait for now. I want to be able to dedicate my full attention here when I catch up - and right this minute there's too much else going on.
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I doubt newbie scum could fake it that well, town read on liopoil from that long and helpful post.
I don't really agree. Those "long post on everyone" posts used to me more popular in previous games, and I think scum found them just as easy to write as town. I'm already sufficiently impressed with liopoil that I don't think it would be any harder for him to do it as scum than anyone else. That said, I don't find him scummy for doing it, I just am not awarding automatic town points for it. And I do disagree with his reads on the Eevee wagon, on Jimm and ashersky, and of course he is wrong about me.
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used to me = used to be
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At 1 p.m., Chief O'Brien realizes nothing terrible has happened to him all day.
"Score!" he says, standing up and hitting his head on the top of the Jeffries Tube.
Vote Count 1.8
Eevee (1): Jimmmmm
TheMunch (1): theorel
Cuzz (2): Galzria, Robz888
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): yuma
ashersky (2): Glooble, mcmcsalot
Not Voting (7): shraeye, raerae, TheMunch, Cuzz, Dsell, Eevee, liopoil
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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I believe I am no longer voting for Eevee, and am instead voting for Cuzz.
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Okey-dokey.
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I don't know why it's so quiet in here all of a sudden. I guess there's no particular hurry, since we aren't using bankable deadlines, though.
I feel like I don't really have much from Munch yet. Still not much from Cuzz, of course. Glooble has answered my question (by not answering it). Galzria is so weirdly silent, but I saw that he was behind in a different topic, so.
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So I agree with robz while these long post are helpfull it's not doing anything for town if we just post them and don't analyse each others so putting eevee on hold as ist going to take me forever and going to look at liopoil's thoughts.
You mention you think jimm is less scummy than before, could you provide any more specific examples of why. ex. just what other people have said or did you think jimms defense of himself seemed town. I still believe he could be scum, although I agree he didn't mean to trick anyone I feel his argument was pushed in a similar way scum would push a case against someone, manipulation of post and drawing attention to it, few people will straight up deny a case has some grounds and in a 15 person game drawing attention to case = gaining support.
I agree with your thoughts on Dsell, if he is scum, excuse the saying raerae, he has some huge balls. Can a(hopefully multiple) veteran(s) weigh in on this, is it possible Dsell would make a move like this as scum.
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I just got off work. I posted that one thought during my lunchbreak. I'm endeavoring not to post completely contentlessly. If I have an observation I think is helpful to the town. If I don't, then I'm just making noise. In other words, if possible I'd like to actually help fond scum, but barring that ill settle for not making a lot of distracting noise.
I feel like I should comment on the whole raerrae/ ashersky fight, but it didn't really solidify my reads at all. I still think ashersky is as good a place for my vote as any. He seemed really ready to lynch eevee, then made a case on raerrae that just felt off to me. Maybe I'll retread and see if I can articulate my thoughts better.
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It's not that Dsell's move is so like, uh, risky... it's just that it seems very unlikely he would have even conceived it at all, unless he's town. The mindset it took to realize that discrepancy between town/station and exploit it like that to press Eevee for info, is I think exceedingly unlikely to have actually come from scum. It's not impossible, but I really am considering him town for now. As in, I would not lynch him today, and I would not really want a cop to investigate him, rather than other people.
On my earlier point about the lack of content here, what surprised me is that plenty of people are active on other threads right now, and it distresses me that they are like avoiding this. I know I am reluctant to post (and scared of saying the wrong thing) much more often when I am scum, that's why this makes me suspicious. But there are a lot of people not talking right now, and there are a lot of people who just don't show up until evening, so I don't know. But typically the conversation during day (real day, not mafia day), is riveting.
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Clearly bankable deadlines are where it's at. I chose not to implement them because it seems like they'd be more work for the mod, but next time I think I'll have to just suck it up.
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One point about Dsell I tried to make earlier: If he cared about to make such a move as scum (and if he had made, it should make him care considerably more - running for that mvp!), he would be participating a lot more afterwards to build on the probtown-status. So, the comment combined with his play afterwards makes me think it's very very very likely he is town.
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Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.
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Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
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It's true, I don't have many scum reads at all. People were saying having scumreads was unlike my town meta.. well, we are back to normal now! I have a bunch of town reads I will defend if need be. I've seen a couple of cases I've liked, I'm likely to join one of them. Last one was on Cuzz, and I think it's where I'd stick my vote if the deadline was tomorrow. However, we have time and I'm fine with waiting for a better case / seeing who continue not to contribute possibly making a case of my own against one of them eventually.
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Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
Well, like 5% higher scumscore than average. Certainly not seeming towny to me.
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Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
Well, like 5% higher scumscore than average. Certainly not seeming towny to me.
For me, my suspicion on Galz comes from two thing: 1) He's under-posting, 2) He threw water on the case I made against you.
But he's under-posting everywhere, and I think is just behind. On the other thing, I probably have to just shed my bias in favor of the case, perhaps, much as his reaction to it grated me.
So I guess I don't have much of a scumread on him, either. And I did follow him in voting Cuzz, actually.
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Robz, I would argue in multiple scum team situations scum has a lot less incentive to buddy up to non-teammates and defend them strongly from getting lynched. Pretty catastrophic if they end up flipping scum of the other theam!
Dsell
Robz put it well - very scummy if it wasn't for the fact the incident actually earns him a ton of town credit. Also, if he scared enough to fake the question at scum, he'd surely care enough to post more and appear less obvscummy. So yes, strongest town read, easily.
Robz
Says a lot of stuff I agree with, maybe even more than usual. Don't know if that's a towntell or scumtell on meta level (I think town, but not sure), I still think plays very protown and is not a likely place for my vote today.
Galzria
Nah, slight scumread. Like, better than to hit scum than in a random lynch, but not the best place to drop down my vote.
theorel
Don''t get a major townread from his theory stuff, but no scum read either. He is playing like I'd expect scumtheorel to play, but that is pretty much how I'd expect towntheorel to play too.
Jimm
I've talked about Jimm already. His case on me was really trying from early on, and I think he really believed in it. But well, scum has even more incentive to scumhunt than town here. So.. Either way, again not a good lynch target, he is definitely an asset for town.
ashersky
Frustration is usually a town trait. No read still, and it is helpfur for town that he is taking strong positions - identifying the alignment of players like this later is easier than trying to read a lurker.
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
Sparky
Has the tendency to lurk like this, but.. Worth noting, we've never seen town sparky! It's very possible he'd post shorter posts more often.
Glooble
Has a low post count but has made sense to me when he has posted.
I know there are other people, but got tired midway!
Found the post, even if its a 5% higher scum score, why does he have a 5% higher scum score. Analysis without reasons is useless to town in fact it allows for scum to provide analysis or agree an seem towny.
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I'm happy to give Dsell somewhat of a Town pass for now, until of course someone (could be me) makes a good case on him. Looks like two of our top suspects at this point are Cuzz and Galz, so I'll give them a read. Also interested in mom salon and liopoil.
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Well, I made the super-flimsy early day case. Reasons aren't even that important anymore, just the fact he has felt off to me from the get go. He has sufficient reasons for underposting (overcommited in games to the point that even 8 hours a day in the forums isn't enough to keep up), but still he doesn't FEEL like town Galzria to me, which is suspicious. He is often so damn useful I conclude he simply can't be scum. Basically, especially in non-blitz situations his town meta is to be so pro-town he couldn't possibly replicate that as scum unless he nailed his entire team on day 1 or something.
.. otoh, we have two scum teams, scumGalz could scumhunt just as hard here if he wanted to. Hence, my scum read on him being very slight.
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Robz (and everyone), perhaps you missed this, so I'll repost it, but it's 1000x more true than I expected this morning. I WILL get in content and reads today if it kills me (and it just might at this rate!). My brain is on overload right now. I'm PRAYING that the seeming explosion of activity is just because it's Monday, but I honestly can't keep up right now.
When I signed up for this game, I DID warn that I would be more "lurky" than normal, and that still holds true - but I never intended for it to be this bad, even by my own standards. I've not been participating or hunting as hard as I should, and that needs to change. I'm finding it too easy to just skim and agree with so much instead of critically looking at the posts and saying "wait, that's not right". Eevee could probably post a "0% chance of flipping town" type moment I would probably gloss right over it.
All that is to say: If you're judging my scumminess by my lurking (compared to my own standards of posting), then I'm probably hands down the scummiest person in this thread and deserve to be called out. However, I'm town, and I may need to kick my own ass into gear here. I will get myself moving here and all caught up before I pass out tonight, I promise.
Here's the post from this morning:
I am way way way behind. I feel like the forums are going crazy today. I've got the day off, and will be here to catch up by tonight, but since this is the biggest of the games I'm in, it'll have to wait for now. I want to be able to dedicate my full attention here when I catch up - and right this minute there's too much else going on.
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Well Cuzz hasn't really said anything particularly helpful so far, but at the same time nothing really stands out as scummy. And there's not much to the case on him either, other than that he hasn't said much. At this stage I'll probably plonk my vote on him if he doesn't start contributing soon as promised (of course that could change if I find someone else to be scummy).
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You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
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You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
I pretty much agree, although I've been crucified for saying this before.
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Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
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I didn't mean to start any trouble with the question of theory I just meant this:
I don't if it's scummy. It seems like we jumped out of RVS super quick so easy to miss what little theory talk there was, plus it seems genuine to me if he has, in fact, never played in a multi-scum team game. That definitely adds another layer of uncertainty to the game so it makes sense, if you're a person who finds value in theory talk, to talk, or at least ask, about theory discussion.
I dont necessarily have anything awesome to contribute theory wise so its not like I want to discuss it for no reason, I was just curious if anyone that has played multi-scum-team games had any real insight. More of an open question than an actual push for theory talk.
So that said, I really want to reread. I need to form REAL reads cause I now realize that I haven't paid as much attention as I would if I was actually playing. I also forget that this is only 14 pages... it wont be that bad. Will post analysis later tonight (fingers crossed... We might go out for dinner heaven forbid hehehe).
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Yuma, this one is less indepth as coming from phone. You have some solid analysis coming out early game. Many of your posts were about the raerae, ashersky debacle so no reads of of that. The only thing that gives me a read on you is that you felt I was scummy, said I made the scummiest post in the game and then as the arguing started you seem to have forgot your post about me. As did whomever you asked to comment who was scummier, me or eevee. That gives me a bit of a scum read as you tried to push a case on me and when noone picked it up you dropped it.
I still think that post of yours was scummy, enough to vote for it. I have seen nothing from you that has led me to take away my vote, (nor have I seen anything else from other players to move it elsewhere). I am also not the sort of person that picks a person for doing something scummy and then hounds them endlessly forcing later posts into scumminess. So I haven't dropped it, but am keeping an eye on you.
And yes, I also found it odd that Jimmm didn't respond to my question about who is scummier, you or eevee.... Jimmm did you see that question? Why didn't you answer it?
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Ok, caught up finally. AMA.
Townreads: theorel (as usual), liopoil, and Dsell, who for all intents and purposes I am treating as obvtown. There perhaps does exist a universe in which his early post was a scum gambit, but it's not one of the likely ones. Theorel just seems almost exactly like town!theorel to me at this juncture, and liopoil has been making pro-town lists and whatnot which I just don't really see as newbscum behavior.
I don't have a townread on Galz per se, but he did mention before getting his alignment that he's be a bit quieter this game, so I won't use this against him unless he turns into a super-lurker (like that Cuzz guy) or something.
Weirdly, I don't really have any scumreads yet this game. Eevee could be scum; I don't have a townread on him either, but I didn't like the particular cases made against him early. In fact, I really didn't like the case against him that Jimmmmm was pushing, which gave me a teensy bit of a bad vibe from Jimmmmm, but not enough to qualify as a scumread yet.
Robz seems mostly like townRobz so far but I've somehow still not really seen him as scum. Fortunately he posts so much that my read on him should become clearer before too long. The ash/yuma/raerae debacle (which got unpleasantly heated, which I found a bit sad, but fortunately has cooled off) read like possible town all around to me. These last few aren't really strong enough to qualify as fullblown "townreads" yet though.
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Question for mom salon: who is your biggest scumread at the moment, and why? If the answer is me (and even otherwise if you can), who's your second and why?
PPE: yuma, I can't recall the question, I'll have a look now.
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and it appears that Jimmm had similar feelings toward mcmc as I do. Jimmm who do you think is scummier... Eevee or mcmc?
this is it.
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Thanks, found it. At that point in time I was coming down from my Eevee case and my response to mcmc was more just about being called ridiculous than thinking he was scummy.
At this stage Eevee is off my radar because I don't think he will be or should be lynched today, and my case on him is not nearly as strong as I thought it was. I'd like mcmc to answer my question before I say anything more about him.
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Ok guys, you ready?!?! Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee! There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it. The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.
Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it. In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake. Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason. Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure. Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.
I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.
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Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
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Ok. Ashersky. I really find noticing that Ashersky just feels wrong to me. Like I just disagree with him on theory. In previous games I've acknowledged the "ashersky always comes off as scummy so I'm wary of lynching him for it." I really just want him to improve as a player and not worry about "well I'm not coming off as scummy which is different so I'm going to get lynched for it." Amongst all interactions I really think Ashersky is being Ashersky and get a town read from him. That being said, I would be interested to see what happens if I didn't read a whole mafia game thread and then just did the opposite of whatever Ashersky suggests...
TLDR: Ashersky is town. I disagree with approx 99% of what he's said...
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Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Thats just it. I really dont have a compelling case on him. Just every bone in my body says this is not town!eevee. I could go write up something more formal specifically revolved around making some huge day 1 case on Eevee but I dont think I'm actually super comfortable with that. I do think there are enough people that interacted in interesting ways with Eevee that it would be helpful to know his alignment. That said he is my biggest scum read out of these pages so that helps.
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The joy of multiple scum teams: I have little doubt in my mind Munch actually thinks I'm scum. His case on me is entirely based on his feelings, which I trust to be genuine. Well, all I can do is hope others read me better.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
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Ok Everyone else. If I dont list you, its cause I dont think you have said enough or contributed things that have meaningfully impacted my reads on you... so shame on you all...
Glooble I'll give a hesitant town read if only because of his inactivity but everything that hes said gives me town vibes.
Dsell: Dare I say obvtown? I dont. But hes pretty high up on my town reads. I dont want to say its cause of his station comment early on... but ya know...
Robz: I think I just convinced myself that Robz is town just cause I've actually been agreeing with a lot of what hes been saying. I am cautious but town read for now.
Jimm: I'll give him credit for his dont lynch till I claim posture.
Theorel: The only one that I actually found to discuss theory to an extent. Other than that, no read. (Hey, Ash, why did you push the "Raerae is iioa" instead of the much more obvious "theorel is iioa"... although I dont think iioa is necessarily indicitivly a scumtell)
Raerae: is raerae. She reminds me a LOT of Me vs Ehalcyon in XI... Maybe that means shes SK...
Sparky: Totally scummy in his only post in 216. Oh wait. Thats me. Nevermind.
I should probably have a read on Galz... In hindsight he did say a bunch, but I "dont have any notes." Maybe this is intentional, who knows.
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I think I mentioned this before, but here it is again: I'm using a somewhat new approach to this game, which I am calling the Straightforward Strategy, or SFS (see what I did there?). My approach to this game, rather than going so strongly off of metas, is to look at two things: 1) Real evidence, and 2) What people are saying.
I fully support this, Robz. I wish you success!
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful. Working on rereads now because I was dumb and didn't take notes while I was reading before. Have only gotten through ashersky (town) and partially through a few others. I have initial thoughts, solely based on feelings while reading (which I hate!) so I won't be posting real read thoughts until I actually have them.
As for ashersky, I feel like he's just lynch-hungry so his cases and early sheeping feel like just trying to push the game into day two. In my head, scum would want to draw this out and just create more confusion for town to sort through.
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man this game is just swarming with twin claims!
shraeye, thanks for your explanation about your new strategy.
I guess I like it as town, because it helps you scum hunt. But I am not liking it as much if you are scum, because it allows you to coast without offering any real insights up for analysis--especially analysis later in the game when we can go back and compare your reads to your actions and to your reads later in the game.
So I guess what I am saying is that if that is how you are going to play, I am going to hope you are town, but don't be surprised if you get read scummy by others for playing such.
I'll be sure to offer my analysis before the end of the day; I'm sort of saving it up.
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And yes, I also found it odd that Jimmm didn't respond to my question about who is scummier, you or eevee.... Jimmm did you see that question? Why didn't you answer it?
Jimmmmm, I saw your answer to this question and am interested for this to play out.
Thanks, found it. At that point in time I was coming down from my Eevee case and my response to mcmc was more just about being called ridiculous than thinking he was scummy.
At this stage Eevee is off my radar because I don't think he will be or should be lynched today, and my case on him is not nearly as strong as I thought it was. I'd like mcmc to answer my question before I say anything more about him.
@mcmcsalot please answer this question ASAP
Question for mom salon: who is your biggest scumread at the moment, and why? If the answer is me (and even otherwise if you can), who's your second and why?
I would additionally like you to state your full opinion on Jimmmm regardless if he is your biggest scumread or not.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
At the same time, Jimmmmm, please explain why you say we need more evidence before you would be ok with lynching Dsell (I understand the connotation on this question is weird, but promise this statement is made without reflection to my opinion of Dsell). Is it because he's probably town? I feel like there's a different reason, but please explain in a little more depth regardless of the answer.
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Just because he hasn't said much yet, but I don't think that outweighs the Town points he has. I just feel like before we get any extra information from flips, Dsell's part in this game will be defined by his first post.
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Thanks liopoil, this is very helpful. I agree with some of your reads but disagree with others (some a bit, some strongly), but the explanations that come along with them are great. If you're town (and actually more so if you are scum), this is a good post for the game of mafia. Please continue playing games, as I like the way you've presented yourself thus far.
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so this game (or rather how we are playing this game) has been kinda weird... in that apparently it gets quiet during the week as opposed to the weekend. and the lack of wagons, even mini-wagons. There was the eevee one, yes, but nothing else to speak of.
I guess that is why I feel like everyone is here in this game, but not "involved" and therefore a bit hard to read.
Is looking at the 4 (well 3 since Cuzz's vote was an RVS thing) people on the mini-eevee wagon worth anything? That was ash, robz and jimmm (well that is interesting that those are the three that lio has scum reads on, I hadn't made that connection before.)
I don't know. Maybe it is just because this game is only 3 days old, but already 16 pages long. Although there has only been 15 votes (including RVS votes) all game. Yeah, that I think is weird. I haven't ever done a vote:post count before, but I think this game has been low on votes. Do people agree? Why is it so? And is it good or bad? I think it is bad personally, votes move town, get scum to be squirmy, and causes people to form opinions and vocalize them allowing town to gain valuable information.
So I am going to encourage more votes. I mean, don't just vote because I say so or if you don't have reads, but if you have a read and you feel relatively good about it, put it down!
I am probably off for tonight. Going to watch Downton Abbey with the wife and study hematology. Hope to see some votes when I check back in tomorrow.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
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I 100% agree with yuma. Imagine rereading this day? Whole lot of pages, very little positions / voting.
Vote: Cuzz
I encourage everyone to pin their vote on their biggest scum read. You can switch it to someone else when you get a stronger read!
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I see your reasoning for voting more, and I agree with it. Vote: Robz888
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Be my guest.
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I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
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My biggest scum read so far would be the person I'm currently voting for, as this is the only person I feel comfortable voting for.
Ashersky: I noticed you said you had a big scum read on eevee before jimm ever made his case. Then you confirmed by voting just after jimm's argument was made. Many people said you were posting scum reads on people while providing no evidence, I tend to agree and was looking for where you remedied this and it is nowhere to be found. Next your bickering with raerae which seemed very scummy on both your parts though what peeked my interest was jimm's dismissal of the argument explaining it wasn't pro town. While I agree this is not a pro town argument, if you in fact are scum, this is also not a very pro scum argument. You your self pointed out a time in which you coached raerae, although I don't think you did, I DO think jimm coached you. Much later, you've come back to attacking raerae but with a better case, this is either still scum!ash trying to force a mislynch on raerae, or town!ash still thinking raerae is scum and wants to make his case. I'm not going to comment on the name calling argument because I believe this was an emotional argument and could have come from town or scum.
I'm gonna leave this with a Vote: Ashersky I get a good feel like hes scum and still wary about Jimm because of his interaction.
As for my second biggest scum read it is you Jimm, although I agree I was harsh in stating you "tricked" people, I was previously building many reads based of what you said and was shocked when the eevee case didn't really come together as you made it and my support for it fell off, not because others stopped supporting it but because others pointed out flaws in it. It was poor on my part to build reads off of other people's reads because I can't be sure anyone else is town. This is why I have begun forming much stronger opinions on my own by going back and reading each post a person has made in succession.
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Whoa okay let's no default back to RVSing because yuma said we need to vote more. I think I'll hold on to my vote for the time being.
lio, why Robz? You accused him of being over-accusatory, getting on the lurkers' cases and talking a lot about the setup. You may not know this because you haven't played much, but all of those things are what Robz does, so I don't think there's a lot to the argument. Has he said anything in particular that you thought was scummy?
Eevee your voting for Cuzz seems strange. You seemed to sheep what I didn't think was that strong an argument by Galz, and later you said you had a noread on Cuzz, and that you buy his reasons for being silent. What about Cuzz makes you think he's scummy?
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Be my guest.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
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I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion. Also I've noticed while going through this turns one post about reads into two posts, over 16 pages things like this are going to drastically increase your post count, this will later muddle the read on you which if you are town is anti town, I want an accurate reason to make town reads on people.
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Eevee your voting for Cuzz seems strange. You seemed to sheep what I didn't think was that strong an argument by Galz, and later you said you had a noread on Cuzz, and that you buy his reasons for being silent. What about Cuzz makes you think he's scummy?
Ditto
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I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Do you also have a scum read on Jimm due to this?
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I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Do you also have a scum read on Jimm due to this?
Eh, not super strong, but it seems a bit suspicious.
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I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion. Also I've noticed while going through this turns one post about reads into two posts, over 16 pages things like this are going to drastically increase your post count, this will later muddle the read on you which if you are town is anti town, I want an accurate reason to make town reads on people.
I don't agree with this at all. If you're town, saying as much about your thoughts as possible is pro-town, even if you don't have the time to flesh those thoughts out fully. I also really don't agree that the type of behavior you're talking about is going to inflate someone's post count to the point where it would muddle anyone's reads. Post counts are a heuristic tool to determine who's really not contributing, but they're just one tool of many, and far from foolproof.
Also, there's no need to call out Dsell because he's town.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Be my guest.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Eevee is a nullread for me now. I thought I had a really strong case on him, I just didn't see a world where Town Eevee would say both of those things. But then I realised I hadn't fully understood where he was coming from with one of them, but didn't think that totally destroyed my case. Then I thought about it more and a Town Eevee started making a lot more sense to me. Maybe I shouldn't go with what I feel like doing, but I just don't want to focus on Eevee any more today.
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Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Be my guest.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Eevee is a nullread for me now. I thought I had a really strong case on him, I just didn't see a world where Town Eevee would say both of those things. But then I realised I hadn't fully understood where he was coming from with one of them, but didn't think that totally destroyed my case. Then I thought about it more and a Town Eevee started making a lot more sense to me. Maybe I shouldn't go with what I feel like doing, but I just don't want to focus on Eevee any more today.
Let's say we forget about the whole situation with your earlier case on Eevee and throw it all away. You're still saying that you refuse to consider voting for someone today whom you do not have a townread on, and that's an anti-town attitude.
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Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
so I'm not sure what changed.
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And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
Be my guest.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
Eevee is a nullread for me now. I thought I had a really strong case on him, I just didn't see a world where Town Eevee would say both of those things. But then I realised I hadn't fully understood where he was coming from with one of them, but didn't think that totally destroyed my case. Then I thought about it more and a Town Eevee started making a lot more sense to me. Maybe I shouldn't go with what I feel like doing, but I just don't want to focus on Eevee any more today.
Let's say we forget about the whole situation with your earlier case on Eevee and throw it all away. You're still saying that you refuse to consider voting for someone today whom you do not have a townread on, and that's an anti-town attitude.
Okay sure. If a wagon starts on Eevee and people are making solid cases on him, and I buy them and think that he is our best lynch, I will vote for him. I just don't really see that happening and I probably won't be trying to start one unless he says something outrageous. I didn't mean to say I would refuse to vote for him.
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Vote: Eevee
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Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
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Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
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Also, there's no need to call out Dsell because he's town.
Well as much as I'd like to, I can't agree with this. At least in terms of my play. Calling me out as scum would be incorrect, but if I am playing badly or do something that someone doesn't like I have no problem being called out on it. Like, currently I am being really lurky and I realize it (and I apologize, but like I said I am doing what I can but I have to get used to a new RL schedule).
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Okay, I've had a weird feeling from mcmc all game, but haven't really been able to place it. I had a bit of a read of his only other game I and I think I know what it is now. Consider this post:
I can clarify my defensiveness right now. I'm 19 and playing a game with my brothers friends, something I have always wanted to do, I like my brother and his friends quite a bit. So if I think your misconstruing defensiveness as nervousness because i'm just that, nervous about being liked and accepted by all of you.
Even though he was scum in that game, I think this was pretty genuine.
Now bear in mind that if mcmc is Town this game, it is his first game as Town, in fact his first game for which he doesn't know the entire setup. I remember my first few games I was Town and got pretty overwhelmed because I just wanted to be right with my votes and lynches and anyone could be scum, anyone could be Town, who could I trust or listen to or who was trying to trick me? I'm just not seeing this with mcmc, and I would expect it even more from someone who has played before as scum, and who is putting pressure on himself to be liked. But he seems to be "reading" and suspecting and voting just as much as when he was scum.
So now that I've heard from him and we're voting more, I will Vote: mcmcsalot.
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Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Okay. It's meh, voting without explanations is scummy, I wanted to put my vote somewhere because not voting just seems pointless, but I can't voice my tiny suspicions on you very well.
I thought it was wrong to suspect you before you actually had time to post. Now you have had, and you still don't seem towny to me. Might have a scum bias on you though, especially now. But it's fine, even "bad" suspicions are good because they bring out reactions.
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time. But giving Jimmm hard time about his wording about voting me is reasonable, I give you that. Still, nothing you has said has stricken to me as a particularly towny. Again, I just wanted my vote somewhere, and it is maybe unfair of me to put it down on you just because you haven't given me townvibes when there'd be plenty of other, just as deserving people.
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Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Okay. It's meh, voting without explanations is scummy, I wanted to put my vote somewhere because not voting just seems pointless, but I can't voice my tiny suspicions on you very well.
I thought it was wrong to suspect you before you actually had time to post. Now you have had, and you still don't seem towny to me. Might have a scum bias on you though, especially now. But it's fine, even "bad" suspicions are good because they bring out reactions.
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time. But giving Jimmm hard time about his wording about voting me is reasonable, I give you that. Still, nothing you has said has stricken to me as a particularly towny. Again, I just wanted my vote somewhere, and it is maybe unfair of me to put it down on you just because you haven't given me townvibes when there'd be plenty of other, just as deserving people.
Bolded bit is completely untrue.
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Okay, I've had a weird feeling from mcmc all game, but haven't really been able to place it. I had a bit of a read of his only other game I and I think I know what it is now. Consider this post:
I can clarify my defensiveness right now. I'm 19 and playing a game with my brothers friends, something I have always wanted to do, I like my brother and his friends quite a bit. So if I think your misconstruing defensiveness as nervousness because i'm just that, nervous about being liked and accepted by all of you.
Even though he was scum in that game, I think this was pretty genuine.
Now bear in mind that if mcmc is Town this game, it is his first game as Town, in fact his first game for which he doesn't know the entire setup. I remember my first few games I was Town and got pretty overwhelmed because I just wanted to be right with my votes and lynches and anyone could be scum, anyone could be Town, who could I trust or listen to or who was trying to trick me? I'm just not seeing this with mcmc, and I would expect it even more from someone who has played before as scum, and who is putting pressure on himself to be liked. But he seems to be "reading" and suspecting and voting just as much as when he was scum.
So now that I've heard from him and we're voting more, I will Vote: mcmcsalot.
This seems ever so slightly off to me. You say he's Reading, suspecting and voting just as much as when he was scum, but he's thrown out like 3 suspicions that I can recall and a single vote. (He suspected Eevee based on your case, then you and Ashersky. He's voted Ashersky only the whole game).
So, I'm going to Vote: Eevee at the moment. I feel like the Eevee that finds people scummy and then backs down is scum-Eevee...and what the heck, let's see if we can start another wagon on him.
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ScumEevee finds people scummy and doesn't let go until they are lynched.
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I THINK that this is "all" i have left for today. Time to turn the pages and begin the last grind.
It's been 11 hours so far today. ;-; Going back to work tomorrow is going to feel like a day off.
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Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
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Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
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Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
I totally agree with everything in this post.
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Oh, also Jimm now looks like he's trying to divert to Mcmc, who is not registering scum to me at all this game. He's my brother, and he did fool me in his first game, Blitz... but he is way more active here than he was there, and I know he has MORE IRL commitments right now, not less. I think that definitely gives him towncred. Also, the things he's said, they aren't like the most comprehensive opinions ever, but they do have meat. So again, points against Jimm.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
I'm not saying he's been absolved of suspicion. I'm saying he never had it in the first place which is why I won't vote for him. If somebody brings a case on him that deserves a lynch, sure, I'll be all over that but right now, this very moment, I see nothing that would make me lynch Eevee today.
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There are three people whose lynches I will almost definitely not be supporting today: Galz, Dsell and Eevee. Galz because he's Galz and he's busy. Dsell because he's probably Town and we need more evidence on him than we can probably get today. Eevee's probably from more of an emotional standpoint. I had this big case on him, and it kind of died, and I kind of just want to move on.
I'm in your corner with Eevee. Not voting for him unless he does something awful.
I don't care for this absolving Eevee of all suspicion thing. Disagreeing with the earlier cases on him is one thing, but I really can't see how that translates into making him lynchproof D1. (I realize I'm exaggerating your positions a bit but hopefully people get my point)
I'm not saying he's been absolved of suspicion. I'm saying he never had it in the first place which is why I won't vote for him. If somebody brings a case on him that deserves a lynch, sure, I'll be all over that but right now, this very moment, I see nothing that would make me lynch Eevee today.
I'm not trying to say you should vote for someone you don't think is scummy. And it's confusing now because I do have a scumread on Eevee but did not per se at the time of the post you quoted, so don't let that color the point I'm trying to make. But the issue is that you and Jimmmmm both singled out Eevee as someone you wouldn't vote for today, which only makes sense for someone you have a townread on, (not a nullread, but a townread), and not only did neither of you express a townread on Eevee, but Eevee had also done nothing to deserve one (in my opinion at least).
For example, I don't have a scumread on Glooble at the moment. I have a nullread on him. But it would be insane for me to say something like "I will absolutely not be voting for Glooble at all today unless he makes a major scumslip." Maybe I'll get a scumread on him later. Who knows? The day is very young still.
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The issue I have is more with Jimmmmm than with you, raerae, but your "I'm in your corner" remark is causing me to attribute Jimmmmm's statements about Eevee to you as well, and it's possible you didn't mean to imply that you agreed with Jimmmmm about the specific thing I take issue with.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
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After a long day of work, Bashir and O'Brien meet up at Quark's holosuites.
"What'll it be today?" asks O'Brien. "Spies? Vic's? The Battle of Britain?"
"Actually, Felix just sent me a new program," says Bashir. "It's an ancient human game of psychology and deception, based on 20th Century Earth crime rings. It's called Mafia."
"Mafia, eh?" says the chief. "Sounds a bit dull."
Vote Count 1.9
Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Cuzz (2): Galzria, Eevee
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (2): yuma, Jimmmmm
ashersky (2): Glooble, mcmcsalot
Robz888(1): liopoil
Not Voting (7): shraeye, raerae, Dsell
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Okay, I've had a weird feeling from mcmc all game, but haven't really been able to place it. I had a bit of a read of his only other game I and I think I know what it is now. Consider this post:
I can clarify my defensiveness right now. I'm 19 and playing a game with my brothers friends, something I have always wanted to do, I like my brother and his friends quite a bit. So if I think your misconstruing defensiveness as nervousness because i'm just that, nervous about being liked and accepted by all of you.
Even though he was scum in that game, I think this was pretty genuine.
Now bear in mind that if mcmc is Town this game, it is his first game as Town, in fact his first game for which he doesn't know the entire setup. I remember my first few games I was Town and got pretty overwhelmed because I just wanted to be right with my votes and lynches and anyone could be scum, anyone could be Town, who could I trust or listen to or who was trying to trick me? I'm just not seeing this with mcmc, and I would expect it even more from someone who has played before as scum, and who is putting pressure on himself to be liked. But he seems to be "reading" and suspecting and voting just as much as when he was scum.
So now that I've heard from him and we're voting more, I will Vote: mcmcsalot.
Jim I'm surprised to hear this from you, especiallynow that I've answered. To be clear, my vote for ashersky is the only vote I have made, I was very hesitant to vote as I expressed early on but I came to the understanding voting in normal mafia games was a backing up of your read. Also, my suspicion from you stems from the fact that I put a lot of faith in supporting your reads(interesting you use the words"who could trick me as I was yelled at by yuma I believe for saying you tried to trick me), after your case on eevee was blown up, I realized I cannot trust other peoples reads as much as I thought. Since then I have been posting all of my thoughts on players in complete and concise posts. I felt this was the best way to benefit town because more veteran players than me could use my thoughts to help find scum.
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Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
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Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)
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Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)
Halfway to lynch already? I mean, I voted for Eevee at one point, but it is early. Not like we've had a scum slip to wok with.
I mean, it could be both, with early bussing a la Cayvie on Lekkit in MXVII.
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Okay. Sigh. I guess I have no choice. When I have time I will give Eevee a full re-read from as neutral a standpoint as I can and tell you what I think. For the record, I didn't do a 180, if anything I did a 90, from "I think I have a really good case" to "I guess it wasn't a good case after all, I just don't want to think about it any more." But you're right, being demoralised is not a good reason to give someone a free pass, so I will retract that, and do my best to contribute.
FYI I'm at work now, so I'll kind of be around, but might not be terribly active.
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Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)
Halfway to lynch already? I mean, I voted for Eevee at one point, but it is early. Not like we've had a scum slip to wok with.
I mean, it could be both, with early bussing a la Cayvie on Lekkit in MXVII.
Well, I would unvote to prevent him from being lynched sooner. I don't want to lynch him yet. We have two full weeks. We don't have to take two full weeks, but we should use our time wisely. I feel like I've barely heard from Galzria, for one thing. I know he's busy; the nice thing here is we are NOT eating up our time.
But I mean I really do find Eevee scummy. And of course, with multiple scum factions, you could have Eevee being scum and scum on the wagon. Though I don't think there HAS to be scum here at all, period, end of the story. But right now the people voting him are mostly my bigger townreads.
Right now here's an update on where I'm at:
Town: Robz, Dsell
Strongly leaning town: Theorel
Slight leaning town: Mcmc, ashersky, TheMunch
Neutral: liopoil, yuma, shraeye
Slightly leaning scum: Cuzz, Galzria, Glooble, raerae
Strongly leaning scum: Jimm, Eevee
These are not exactly scientific; obviously they can change. My read on Jimm jumped from strongly leaning town to strongly leaning scum, so.
I think I've pretty much explained all these reads previously, but to recap: Theorel sounds a lot a lot like he does in other games, and his analysis is valuable, and I have concurred with what he's said, mostly about Eevee. I was scum with him in VI, so I know something of scum!theorel. I actually do think he was more concise as scum than he is as town. So this does look like town!theorel to me.
My leaning scum reads are lingering feelings I have on those people for reasons I've given. Cuzz for the reason I voted him, although he's started to mitigate it; Galz because he is underposting, albeit with reasons; Glooble is entirely consistent with previous Gloobles, but previously Glooble was a Serial Killer one of those times, and also his vote on ashersky struck me as very baseless; raerae for her Eevee comment and from doing what appears to be deliberately attempting to mimic her town meta. None of these are rock solid, but it's what I have so far.
I explained my thoughts on Jimm and Eevee. Everybody else lands in a neutral category.
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Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.
Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).
My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.
This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.
I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.
With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.
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Okay, I've had a weird feeling from mcmc all game, but haven't really been able to place it. I had a bit of a read of his only other game I and I think I know what it is now. Consider this post:
I can clarify my defensiveness right now. I'm 19 and playing a game with my brothers friends, something I have always wanted to do, I like my brother and his friends quite a bit. So if I think your misconstruing defensiveness as nervousness because i'm just that, nervous about being liked and accepted by all of you.
Even though he was scum in that game, I think this was pretty genuine.
Now bear in mind that if mcmc is Town this game, it is his first game as Town, in fact his first game for which he doesn't know the entire setup. I remember my first few games I was Town and got pretty overwhelmed because I just wanted to be right with my votes and lynches and anyone could be scum, anyone could be Town, who could I trust or listen to or who was trying to trick me? I'm just not seeing this with mcmc, and I would expect it even more from someone who has played before as scum, and who is putting pressure on himself to be liked. But he seems to be "reading" and suspecting and voting just as much as when he was scum.
So now that I've heard from him and we're voting more, I will Vote: mcmcsalot.
Jim I'm surprised to hear this from you, especiallynow that I've answered. To be clear, my vote for ashersky is the only vote I have made, I was very hesitant to vote as I expressed early on but I came to the understanding voting in normal mafia games was a backing up of your read. Also, my suspicion from you stems from the fact that I put a lot of faith in supporting your reads(interesting you use the words"who could trick me as I was yelled at by yuma I believe for saying you tried to trick me), after your case on eevee was blown up, I realized I cannot trust other peoples reads as much as I thought. Since then I have been posting all of my thoughts on players in complete and concise posts. I felt this was the best way to benefit town because more veteran players than me could use my thoughts to help find scum.
Point to where I tried to trick you. The first time I quoted Eevee's "contradiction", that was not a case, it was something I noticed and thought was strange and was looking for people's thoughts on. I then thought about it a lot more when I was offline, and came back to it was a case in my head. As I was typing it up, I noticed that the first one didn't mean exactly what I thought it meant, but instead of abandoning my case there and then I made a note of it and came back to it, as I said I would.
In terms of my thoughts on you, I'm not quite sure how to best explain it, but you're just striking me as a lot more similar to how you were in your first game than I would expect, and you're not striking me as a first-time Town player.
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Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
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Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.
Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).
My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.
This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.
I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.
With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.
Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.
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How the hell am I above average?
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Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
The cut off for LALL is probably from 10th to 11th place. From your comments, it sounds like you think folks need to post at least more than Glooble? This is my first game with him.
Where's theo? I know he's usually low on the post counts, given he writes longer, thoughtful poem-like treatises, but last place for him is a bit low.
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How the hell am I above average?
Yeah. So I retract my criticisms of you in that regard. But man, even you thought you were lurking!
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The post count turned out pretty anti-intuitive, I would say. People who I thought were lurking actually aren't. People who I thought had solid contributions are a little on the low side.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others. So it's a bit of a catch-22.
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Robz/Galz, what's your take on Shraeye's elusiveness? He's constantly been saying he'll give his reads later, holding them back on purposes, etc. Scummy? Not scummy?
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Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
The cut off for LALL is probably from 10th to 11th place. From your comments, it sounds like you think folks need to post at least more than Glooble? This is my first game with him.
Where's theo? I know he's usually low on the post counts, given he writes longer, thoughtful poem-like treatises, but last place for him is a bit low.
Yeah, but the only person below that point who I have even a slight scum!read on is Glooble himself.
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Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
The cut off for LALL is probably from 10th to 11th place. From your comments, it sounds like you think folks need to post at least more than Glooble? This is my first game with him.
Where's theo? I know he's usually low on the post counts, given he writes longer, thoughtful poem-like treatises, but last place for him is a bit low.
Yeah, but the only person below that point who I have even a slight scum!read on is Glooble himself.
LALL doesn't take scumreads into account, though. Not saying we use LALL at this point, obviously. But if it came down to it...
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Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
Wow. That must be a first for me.
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Wow. That must be a first for me.
I see what you did there.
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Robz/Galz, what's your take on Shraeye's elusiveness? He's constantly been saying he'll give his reads later, holding them back on purposes, etc. Scummy? Not scummy?
Shraeye has totally evaded my radar ever since I totally mis-attributed a bunch of stuff to him. I said this earlier, but I thought he was defending raerae big time, but there's actually no evidence for it, so I don't know why I thought that.
Shraeye does usually leave a bigger footprint than this. I am use to long posts from him, for one thing. And I think he's on the lower side compared to other games. He probably warrants a closer look, if that's what you're getting at.
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The post count turned out pretty anti-intuitive, I would say. People who I thought were lurking actually aren't. People who I thought had solid contributions are a little on the low side.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others. So it's a bit of a catch-22.
I actually think each person needs to be evaluated critically in this regard, and not on a flat scale.
I don't know much about liopoil, so I don't know what "normal" is for him. But for Theorel, that is pretty spot on. Very few posts, tons of content in each.
For the Glooble's and Yuma's, they are actually just higher than I normally look, so I wouldn't consider them "lurking" to their own standard.
And this is the point I made about myself earlier. I HAVE been underposting. Yesterday because I was RL gaming, today because I've been swamped catching up here. My overall numbers might still be above average - but I'll be the first to admit that against my own standards of posting, yes, I am in fact "lurking".
Looking at that list, in all honesty, I think everybody is contributing at or above their normal levels. I see no real lurkers (besides myself) listed.
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Robz/Galz, what's your take on Shraeye's elusiveness? He's constantly been saying he'll give his reads later, holding them back on purposes, etc. Scummy? Not scummy?
Shraeye has totally evaded my radar ever since I totally mis-attributed a bunch of stuff to him. I said this earlier, but I thought he was defending raerae big time, but there's actually no evidence for it, so I don't know why I thought that.
Shraeye does usually leave a bigger footprint than this. I am use to long posts from him, for one thing. And I think he's on the lower side compared to other games. He probably warrants a closer look, if that's what you're getting at.
Yes, I think so.
Also, the "ask a question of others about others" post was a jokey way of emulating what I think of as a scum tool for towniness. Given my own scum read on raerae, who's posting plenty, btw.
But yes, I do think shraeye warrants attention, given he's not sounding exactly like town!shraeye at this point. But I do think he has some V/LA stuff going on, maybe?
Also, can we coin "shraeyerae" as a term to refer to the misguided feeling you had about him defending raerae when he actually wasn't? Or "shraeyeray" like "got hit by the shraeyeray again."
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The post count turned out pretty anti-intuitive, I would say. People who I thought were lurking actually aren't. People who I thought had solid contributions are a little on the low side.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others. So it's a bit of a catch-22.
I actually think each person needs to be evaluated critically in this regard, and not on a flat scale.
I don't know much about liopoil, so I don't know what "normal" is for him. But for Theorel, that is pretty spot on. Very few posts, tons of content in each.
For the Glooble's and Yuma's, they are actually just higher than I normally look, so I wouldn't consider them "lurking" to their own standard.
And this is the point I made about myself earlier. I HAVE been underposting. Yesterday because I was RL gaming, today because I've been swamped catching up here. My overall numbers might still be above average - but I'll be the first to admit that against my own standards of posting, yes, I am in fact "lurking".
Looking at that list, in all honesty, I think everybody is contributing at or above their normal levels. I see no real lurkers (besides myself) listed.
Towniest. Post. Ever.
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Robz/Galz, what's your take on Shraeye's elusiveness? He's constantly been saying he'll give his reads later, holding them back on purposes, etc. Scummy? Not scummy?
Shraeye has totally evaded my radar ever since I totally mis-attributed a bunch of stuff to him. I said this earlier, but I thought he was defending raerae big time, but there's actually no evidence for it, so I don't know why I thought that.
Shraeye does usually leave a bigger footprint than this. I am use to long posts from him, for one thing. And I think he's on the lower side compared to other games. He probably warrants a closer look, if that's what you're getting at.
Yes, I think so.
Also, the "ask a question of others about others" post was a jokey way of emulating what I think of as a scum tool for towniness. Given my own scum read on raerae, who's posting plenty, btw.
But yes, I do think shraeye warrants attention, given he's not sounding exactly like town!shraeye at this point. But I do think he has some V/LA stuff going on, maybe?
Also, can we coin "shraeyerae" as a term to refer to the misguided feeling you had about him defending raerae when he actually wasn't? Or "shraeyeray" like "got hit by the shraeyeray again."
Yes, but we'll never spell it correctly. I can't spell their names correctly one at a time, even!
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The post count turned out pretty anti-intuitive, I would say. People who I thought were lurking actually aren't. People who I thought had solid contributions are a little on the low side.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others. So it's a bit of a catch-22.
I actually think each person needs to be evaluated critically in this regard, and not on a flat scale.
I don't know much about liopoil, so I don't know what "normal" is for him. But for Theorel, that is pretty spot on. Very few posts, tons of content in each.
For the Glooble's and Yuma's, they are actually just higher than I normally look, so I wouldn't consider them "lurking" to their own standard.
And this is the point I made about myself earlier. I HAVE been underposting. Yesterday because I was RL gaming, today because I've been swamped catching up here. My overall numbers might still be above average - but I'll be the first to admit that against my own standards of posting, yes, I am in fact "lurking".
Looking at that list, in all honesty, I think everybody is contributing at or above their normal levels. I see no real lurkers (besides myself) listed.
Towniest. Post. Ever.
I do also agree with this. The flow of this game has been pretty much spot on.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
Did you mean shraeye instead of sparky? sparky = Munch.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
Did you mean shraeye instead of sparky? sparky = Munch.
I went off the list in the 1st post. Sparky is listed there. But yes, shraeye is in the fence list.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
What stands out to me here is that you're on the fence on Dsell. The general opinion is that he's probably Town, but I don't think you've said anything about him. Do you agree?
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Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.
Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).
My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.
This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.
I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.
With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.
Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.
Again I agree with Robz. I actually think the case on Eevee is growing more solid. And those freaking out about 4 votes need to unbunch their undergarments of choice. I can point to two recent games (one ongoing, that's all I'll say) in which a wagon has gotten to L-2 even sooner than this, and we have the same conversation every time: Anyone who pushes any wagon to or over the brink prematurely D1 will be regarded as scum. L-4 is nothing.
Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
Did you mean shraeye instead of sparky? sparky = Munch.
I went off the list in the 1st post. Sparky is listed there. But yes, shraeye is in the fence list.
I just mean that you had sparky and munch in different categories somehow, but they are the same person.
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To contribute a list, which would be helpful from everyone:
Would not lynch today: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, Yuma, munch, Galzria
Would lynch: raerae, mom salon, jimmmmm, Eevee
Fence: Cuzz, Dsell, sparky, theo, Glooble
Would and wouldn't are in order.
Did you mean shraeye instead of sparky? sparky = Munch.
I went off the list in the 1st post. Sparky is listed there. But yes, shraeye is in the fence list.
I just mean that you had sparky and munch in different categories somehow, but they are the same person.
Cause Munch is reading town enough to not lynch D1 while sparky had left no impression. Clearly because he subbed out!
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What stands out to me here is that you're on the fence on Dsell. The general opinion is that he's probably Town, but I don't think you've said anything about him. Do you agree?
I agree that the general opinion is he's town. That's fair. I'm just not so sold on him that I would put him on the would not list. I don't give him as much town cred as everyone else, but definitely don't attribute his actions to scumminess.
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What stands out to me here is that you're on the fence on Dsell. The general opinion is that he's probably Town, but I don't think you've said anything about him. Do you agree?
I agree that the general opinion is he's town. That's fair. I'm just not so sold on him that I would put him on the would not list. I don't give him as much town cred as everyone else, but definitely don't attribute his actions to scumminess.
I really don't understand the "Dsell might be scum" argument. I mean...I understand it I guess but I completely, absolutely disagree with it.
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What stands out to me here is that you're on the fence on Dsell. The general opinion is that he's probably Town, but I don't think you've said anything about him. Do you agree?
I agree that the general opinion is he's town. That's fair. I'm just not so sold on him that I would put him on the would not list. I don't give him as much town cred as everyone else, but definitely don't attribute his actions to scumminess.
I really don't understand the "Dsell might be scum" argument. I mean...I understand it I guess but I completely, absolutely disagree with it.
Who made that argument? Not me, in that quote. I'm at a completely null read on Dsell, given the fact that his only real contribution up to now has been the Eevee town vs. station thing. It was clear the Eevee claim was a joke, and the Dsell response was NOT a scum gambit. And that's it. Moved on. No read from that exchange.
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What stands out to me here is that you're on the fence on Dsell. The general opinion is that he's probably Town, but I don't think you've said anything about him. Do you agree?
I agree that the general opinion is he's town. That's fair. I'm just not so sold on him that I would put him on the would not list. I don't give him as much town cred as everyone else, but definitely don't attribute his actions to scumminess.
I really don't understand the "Dsell might be scum" argument. I mean...I understand it I guess but I completely, absolutely disagree with it.
Who made that argument? Not me, in that quote. I'm at a completely null read on Dsell, given the fact that his only real contribution up to now has been the Eevee town vs. station thing. It was clear the Eevee claim was a joke, and the Dsell response was NOT a scum gambit. And that's it. Moved on. No read from that exchange.
A null read implies that you think he might be scum. Otherwise it's called a townread.
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reading Galzria's post made me feel warm inside. who am I kidding - eevee still likes him some buddybuddy; Galzria seems very towny.
jimmm leading the town with most posts.. the new guy has become a veteran!
cuzz, I didnt intentionally lie. you've been critical of me, it's easy to get confused when you are town and don't check all the facts super carefully. apologies.
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cuzz, I didnt intentionally lie. you've been critical of me, it's easy to get confused when you are town and don't check all the facts super carefully. apologies.
Eevee I want a full response to my post #421:
Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
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i know. I'm exhausted and starting to answer that now feels just as unpleasant as it did when I originally read it. I'll try to get to it tomorrow! I wouldn't expect a very great response, my vote on you was bad town play, I didnt realize how porot I'd be able to justify it.
fwiw you pushing me like this is very good scumhunting.
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fwiw you pushing me like this is very good scumhunting.
Is that because you're scum? You can tell me, everyone else is asleep ;)
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fwiw you pushing me like this is very good scumhunting.
Is that because you're scum? You can tell me, everyone else is asleep ;)
Zzzzzzztellhimzzzzzzzzzzz
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I agree that Galzria seems town from some of his more recent posts. In fact I completely identify with how he's feeling. I feel guilty for not posting more, especially considering that I have achieved near obvtown status to some people.
I am going to reread Jimmmm. He read town to me but people are claiming he really changed his opinion on Eevee. I missed where he did that but he is denying it, saying it was less like a 180 and more like a 90 degree change. Anyway, I'm gonna investigate.
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@Eevee, why are you acting so differently? Why do you think Galz and I have nearly opposite reads on you, when we both know you so well?
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No, it's because my vote on him WAS terrible, and I tried to dodge the question because I didnt feel like answering and he wouldn't let me.
just to annoy Robz, I'll announce i still don't know my flavour name despite having read my pm 4 times now.
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jimmm leading the town with most posts.. the new guy has become a veteran!
I'm doing my best. It'd be nice to come up with theories that people agree with though. I'll work on that.
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No, it's because my vote on him WAS terrible, and I tried to dodge the question because I didnt feel like answering and he wouldn't let me.
just to annoy Robz, I'll announce i still don't know my flavour name despite having read my pm 4 times now.
It's one of those evil Star Trek guys isn't it? Some sort of Morlock?
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@Eevee, why are you acting so differently? Why do you think Galz and I have nearly opposite reads on you, when we both know you so well?
Interesting question, I'm guessing you have different biases/slightly different thoughts of what town Eevee looks like. Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Look, Galzria got townier than you in my books after you started suspecting me and he heaviky defended me. My feelings on how scummy people are depend on if they defend me or attack me. This is vintage town Eevee from 10 games back when I was still young and naive!
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If it was Morlock, I'm sure I'd remember!
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Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
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@Eevee, why are you acting so differently? Why do you think Galz and I have nearly opposite reads on you, when we both know you so well?
Interesting question, I'm guessing you have different biases/slightly different thoughts of what town Eevee looks like. Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Look, Galzria got townier than you in my books after you started suspecting me and he heaviky defended me. My feelings on how scummy people are depend on if they defend me or attack me. This is vintage town Eevee from 10 games back when I was still young and naive!
You are not playing like your normal self, Eevee. Sorry. Don't know if that means you are scum, but definitely different.
I think PR Eevee would be different, actually. You are always VT or scum.
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Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.
I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.
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Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.
I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.
Just now you realize you are being tunnelly? :)
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Well, Eevee's definitely sounding more like himself now. Of course, it was after he explained exactly how to duplicate his town play...
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Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.
I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.
No, I'm tunneling Eevee a bit here, too. I need to stop. I just keep coming back to him.
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Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
Being the biggest wagon from the first post and having to explain all my actions to Galzria and Robz who both (correctly) think they got me quite well figured out after our 15 mutual games does that to a person. But I would agree it's maybe slightly scummy, depending heavily on how good the self meta arguments you are using are.
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Can we talk about lurkers? I mean, plenty to talk about, but where are they?
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@Eevee, why are you acting so differently? Why do you think Galz and I have nearly opposite reads on you, when we both know you so well?
Interesting question, I'm guessing you have different biases/slightly different thoughts of what town Eevee looks like. Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Look, Galzria got townier than you in my books after you started suspecting me and he heaviky defended me. My feelings on how scummy people are depend on if they defend me or attack me. This is vintage town Eevee from 10 games back when I was still young and naive!
You are not playing like your normal self, Eevee. Sorry. Don't know if that means you are scum, but definitely different.
I think PR Eevee would be different, actually. You are always VT or scum.
No rolefishing! And he was JK in MX.
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@Eevee, why are you acting so differently? Why do you think Galz and I have nearly opposite reads on you, when we both know you so well?
Interesting question, I'm guessing you have different biases/slightly different thoughts of what town Eevee looks like. Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Look, Galzria got townier than you in my books after you started suspecting me and he heaviky defended me. My feelings on how scummy people are depend on if they defend me or attack me. This is vintage town Eevee from 10 games back when I was still young and naive!
You are not playing like your normal self, Eevee. Sorry. Don't know if that means you are scum, but definitely different.
I think PR Eevee would be different, actually. You are always VT or scum.
No rolefishing! And he was JK in MX.
Just making an Eevee meta-comment. I forgot he was JK.
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I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
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Well, to stem any more unnecessary rolefishing, Jo has confirmed that everyone in this game will have some ability or other. No one is pure VT.
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Well, to stem any more unnecessary rolefishing, Jo has confirmed that everyone in this game will have some ability or other. No one is pure VT.
Shhh, don't tell them that!
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I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
No, don't. No reason to.
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I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
No, don't. No reason to.
Not yet at least.
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I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
No, don't. No reason to.
Not yet at least.
I would at least wait until a lynch is imminent, which it isn't.
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I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.
I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.
So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.
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A list of every vote cast to date:
#7 Robz - Galzria
#11 Cuzz - Eevee
#50 Jimm - mcmc
#87 Ash - Eevee
#99 Robz - Eevee
#132 Jimm - Eevee
#177 Gloob - Jimmm
#201 Theorel - Sparky (TheMunch)
#212 Galz - Cuzz
#219 liopoil - Jimmm
#222 Cuzz - unvotes
#224 Ash - Raerae
#225 Yuma - mcmc
#235 Gloob - Ash
#273 Jimm - unvotes
#307 Robz - Cuzz
#309 mcmc - Asher
#342 liopoil - unvotes
#371 TheMunch - Eevee
#393 Eevee - Cuzz
#394 liopoil - Robz888
#411 Cuzz - Eevee
#415 Jimm - mcmc
#418 Theorel - Eevee
#422 Robz - Eevee
22 votes cast.
Eevee has 8 by:
Cuzz, Ash, Robz, Jimm, Munch, Cuzz, Theorel Robz
Cuzz has 3 by:
Galz, Eevee, Robz
mcmc has 3 by:
Jimm, Yuma, Jimm
Jimm has 2 by:
Gloob, liopoil
Ash has 2 by:
Gloob, mcmc
Galz has 1 by:
Robz
Robz has 1 by:
liopoil
Raerae has 1 by:
Ash
Munch has 1 by:
Theorel
And that's it.
Haven't voted:
Dsell, Raerae, Shraeye
Haven't been voted for:
Dsell, Shraeye, Theorel, Yuma, liopoil, Glooble
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The above, juxtaposed with this...:
Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
Shows why lurking scum win so many games. When you're towards the bottom of the pool, you just don't get suspected as much. It's sad, but it's true.
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Theorel - you went from voting Sparky/TheMunch, to following him into voting Eevee. Please explain in more detail your current thoughts on each.
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Cuzz, you claimed your first vote on Eevee was just a joke. When you got back to the thread and finally caught up, you unvoted.
What happened between posts #222, where you unvoted, and #411 when you put your vote back that made you think Eevee was scum after all?
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Ashersky and Jimmm - You two both voted Eevee earlier. There's now a wagon on him without your votes. How do you feel regarding Eevee now? More scummy? Less? If each of you accepts yourself to be town, then who out of the 5 other people to have voted Eevee - or Eevee himself - do you think is most likely scum?
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Robz, I've laid out on multiple occasions detailed analysis of exactly the points that I believe indicate Eevee is town. Yet you continue to persecute him. You've known and played with Eevee as long as I have. What do you think makes my read wrong, and yours right?
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Robz, this is digging deep, but you used to REFUSE to rvs. You prided yourself on how seriously you cast your vote, and were often one of the last to do so. What's with the vote on me in post #7?
More specifically, you've cast your vote more than any other player so far. 4 of the 22 are from you. You voted for me, then Eevee, then Cuzz and finally Eevee. Why the drastic change in your normal playstyle?
(I recognize you're not AS tight with your vote as you used to be, but this is still awfully loose, especially for you).
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Eevee and Shraeye:
I was completely fooled by mcmc in the last blitz game, but you two had more of an inside look. I don't trust myself to read him well here, so while I've found him slightly scummy, I couldn't put my finger on it, and even if I could I would be unsure. I would like each of you to give your reads on him, or at least express if you believe he's acting much the same as in blitz, or differently.
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And I'm done. I'm sure there's more I could ask, but I've been online for 16 hours now and I'm utterly drained. I need to get some sleep before work tomorrow.
If I don't log on in the morning, or am unavailable throughout the day - do yourselves a favor and don't lynch Eevee. He's town.
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Ashersky and Jimmm - You two both voted Eevee earlier. There's now a wagon on him without your votes. How do you feel regarding Eevee now? More scummy? Less? If each of you accepts yourself to be town, then who out of the 5 other people to have voted Eevee - or Eevee himself - do you think is most likely scum?
I have a deliberate nullread on Eevee. When I have time (still at work) I will do a full re-read on him and see what I come up with.
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Robz, I've laid out on multiple occasions detailed analysis of exactly the points that I believe indicate Eevee is town. Yet you continue to persecute him. You've known and played with Eevee as long as I have. What do you think makes my read wrong, and yours right?
I'm not persecuting him. Believe me, I would much rather have him be town. But I can't ignore the fact that I don't believe he actually doesn't know the contents of his role PM, that the Dsell incident makes him slightly more likely to be scum, that his immediate behavior did not scream town as it usually does, and that very recently he made an abrupt shift to his typical town persona after giving an extremely accurate description of exactly what that persona is.
I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him. It's weird, and none of the three of them come out looking good. I'd pretty sure some scum, somewhere, is trying to kill the Eevee lynch, possibly to gain his favor.
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Robz, this is digging deep, but you used to REFUSE to rvs. You prided yourself on how seriously you cast your vote, and were often one of the last to do so. What's with the vote on me in post #7?
More specifically, you've cast your vote more than any other player so far. 4 of the 22 are from you. You voted for me, then Eevee, then Cuzz and finally Eevee. Why the drastic change in your normal playstyle?
(I recognize you're not AS tight with your vote as you used to be, but this is still awfully loose, especially for you).
I vote really loosely these days. Think of M-XII, M-XIV, and M-XVI. I think cautiously voting is overrated.
The RVS vote wasn't entirely RVS. I do think smileys are scummy. I certainly didn't extend RVS though, so I think it's still pretty in keeping with my MO.
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I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.
Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today?
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I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.
Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today?
It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.
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I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.
Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today?
It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.
Do you not see that that's what it looked like? That's what it looked like to me. Like you were in hot water over the case, and you decided to bail, and you went too far in trying to bail, because you were apparently not sincere in the first place. That's one way to read it; it's the most immediate way that I read it. I understand it's not the only way to read it.
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It was an overreaction to feeling a bit frustrated and demoralised that what I thought was a really strong case turned out not to be so good because I had misunderstood the intent behind something that was said. Like I said, I didn't want to think about it any more. I also felt like I needed to stop focussing on Eevee and look at other people.
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Ashersky and Jimmm - You two both voted Eevee earlier. There's now a wagon on him without your votes. How do you feel regarding Eevee now? More scummy? Less? If each of you accepts yourself to be town, then who out of the 5 other people to have voted Eevee - or Eevee himself - do you think is most likely scum?
Townier, but not obv!town. Most likely town voting for Eevee is Cuzz.
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I'm not caught up with the four new pages since I went to bed. Just wanted to give a heads up I won't be able to catch up until at least 4.
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Theorel - you went from voting Sparky/TheMunch, to following him into voting Eevee. Please explain in more detail your current thoughts on each.
I voted Sparky because he hadn't posted. I left it there after his post because it seemed like too little (especially the comment he would be following followed by nothing). Then he replaced out to Munch. I have a null-read on Munch...which means I would lean slightly scummy on Sparky/Munch, since Sparky was slightly scummy before replacing out.
Before I go into Eevee I should state something else.
I strongly believe that there are mutliple scum teams in this game, or at the very least that if there is a single scum-team they believe there is another scum team. I believe that this is why this game feels weird. I think it was Galzria that stated people are posting more than usual. I think this is the effect of the scum trying to scum-hunt. I think that scum are NOT sitting back as much as usual, and I think this is the effect that others are noting. This is a major reason that I disagree with your town-read on Eevee and find my scum-read more compelling.
My view on Eevee:
1. Eevee does not seem like town-Eevee. He's described his town-meta well. He admitted earlier that he wasn't really playing like his town self, and claimed that he's trying to be a better town player (meaning he was trying to scum hunt better). I believe he is trying to more actively scum hunt. I will readily admit that this may be due to an active change in Eevee's play. I don't think that he should be lynched immediately, and if he suddenly picked up another two votes I would probably unvote. I'm content with him sitting at 4 votes though.
2. Eevee does not seem like scum-Eevee. I'm honestly willing to believe you here (I'm pretty sure I've never seen scum-Eevee in a game, so I don't really have that judgment). That said, the description you're assigning to scum-Eevee actually seems a lot like MXVII Eevee, which is probably why you were willing to almost-lynch him there...only he was town there.
I think Eevee seems over-eager to find scum, which to me is a multi-ball scum trait. Scum want to be on scum lynches that don't involve their own team. It's like bussing without the negative repercussions on your own team. Additionally, they want to leverage the fact that they don't have full knowledge of the set-up.
All that said, my primary purpose in voting for Eevee (as with any day1 vote) is to see what develops out of it. That's why I joined a wagon with other votes on it rather than voting for someone new. I primarily use my day1 vote to try to help create what appear to be viable lynches, and in doing so catch out survivalist tells. I've stated approximately as much in every game I've played as town, which is to say that I don't just stick my vote on my biggest scum-read and be done with it. Of course, now that I've stated this scum might be unwilling to join the Eevee-wagon because I'm trying to bait them into it. But then that might mean that scum ends up unwilling to join wagons. Which means that they're doing a poor job of trying to survive, because if they don't join wagons then they're leaving it completely up to town who to lynch. It will be easier for a bunch of townies to coalesce about a scum-lynch than for town to do so through scum direction, and hence they're more likely to be lynched because they're trying to avoid the bait. The thing about survivalist tells, is that they come from trying to survive better. If scum stops trying to survive, then I think that's essentially mission accomplished.
Random other theory-thing. Raerae stated that she thought scum would want the day to go longer so that they could "sow more confusion". This is utterly wrong. Scum want the day to end as soon as possible. The longer the day goes on the more likely they'll slip up somehow and the more likely they'll get lynched. Shorter days give town less information and less chance to scum-hunt. There is a limit to how long a day can be beneficial, at some point town needs concrete information to move forward (this is one reason that nolynch day1's are really bad). But to think that scum can use longer days to sow more confusion is just silly. It's like saying scum want to use night-kills to sow confusion. No, sometimes they just want to use Night-kills to eliminate threats.
If every day resulted in a single-wagon leading to a lynch I think that would be the greatest benefit to scum. The chances of that single wagon being one of them is relatively low. They'll limit the amount of false interactions they need to make up. This is a big part of the reason why scum tends to lurk (because they're faking interactions), and a big part of the reason that multi-ball changes it (they don't need to fake it except in the case of their partner). This means that longer days are almost exclusively to the benefit of town...because we'll build up more wagons giving scum more chances to be forced into faking their interactions with their partners, and giving us more chances to catch them faking it. I know that my biggest concern in MVI was not whether I was right or wrong on Insomniac (because I knew it was a valid read, whether he was scum or town). My biggest concern was that I'd get called out for my clumsy interactions with Robz.
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Went to bed at 11, woke up at 9 to 4 pages!
unvote this is because of two reason, the second being knowingly terrible, 1) ash's recent posts have read towny to me and 2) my scum read on him is from posts pages and pages ago, they have been lost in so many other things I couldn't make a case on him if I was asked to.
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ash's recent posts have read towny to me
See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.
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Finally re-read Eevee, as promised. A few points:
The impression that I get is that he's been quite tentative, even to the point of putting himself down. Is this normal Eevee? I'm not too sure.
Feels almost embarrassing to post this, but oh well.
I don't think that warrants HIGH suspicion, but the logic it obviously sound. I would be my biggest scum read as well because of this.
The whole thing is just me being a careless townie and wording stuff badly.
Townread on yuma for articulating my defense better than I ever could have.
fwiw you pushing me like this is very good scumhunting.
The one about being his own biggest scum read seems a little fake to me.
I'm also unconvinced by his defense to the contradiction case:
Jimmm's contradiction case has the makings of a classic day 1 mislynch. Why would I have to lie/contradict myself there if I was scum? I just realized I probably wouldn't have answered the question either way after hitting send, and posted that. Why would I possibly be intentionally dishonest there?
Regardless of how good we all think the case was, this seems like he is diverting attention away from the main point of the case by being vague. Why he would theoretically do something is not nearly as helpful as specifically why he did what he did. Something along the lines of "Oh no you misunderstood, I didn't mean what you thought I meant" would be much more helpful, I think.
I also really don't like his stance on Cuzz. He doesn't really give much of a case, and it kind of seems like he's trying too hard to do the "Town" thing (he's mentioned that sort of thing elsewhere as well I think), by putting a vote down because yuma said to. I think this is kind of similar to how I feel about mom salon, in that I think providing an opinion for the sake of having an opinion can be scummy.
Eevee, you mentioned you like the mom salon case, but haven't really said much about him other than that. How do you feel about him now?
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Good questions, Galzria.
Eevee and Shraeye:
I was completely fooled by mcmc in the last blitz game, but you two had more of an inside look. I don't trust myself to read him well here, so while I've found him slightly scummy, I couldn't put my finger on it, and even if I could I would be unsure. I would like each of you to give your reads on him, or at least express if you believe he's acting much the same as in blitz, or differently.
I expressed big big townreads on mcmc in that game - for a reason. His play DID look towny to me - I would have been fooled too if I was town, for sure.
He hasn't seem scummy to me in this game. Is posting a lot, saying reasonable things and taking meaningful positions. Nothing feels off to me. But I don't consider myself an expert in reading him, dude is HARD to read.
@Cuzz
I felt you didn't fit the bill above - were not taking positions, but rather upping your post count on the "easy" disagreement with Jimm about his opinions about me. Your reactions to my suspicions feel towny to me, I will Unvote.
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Oh, in conclusion to my post on Eevee: I hate to say it, but I've got a slightish scum read again.
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I liked this post a lot. 10/10 would read again.
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The issue I have is more with Jimmmmm than with you, raerae, but your "I'm in your corner" remark is causing me to attribute Jimmmmm's statements about Eevee to you as well, and it's possible you didn't mean to imply that you agreed with Jimmmmm about the specific thing I take issue with.
Warning: trying to get caught up
I only meant to say that I'm not comfortable voting Eevee today. I correctly pegged him as scum in Blitz and I don't get that same feeling from him today. I correctly pegged him as town in Buffy too. Somebody (maybe it was you?) asked why I wouldn't vote for somebody I had a null-read on and it's just because I find that silly. If I have a slight scumread on somebody I'll vote for them over the person I have a null-read on every time. I'm working on getting reads out there but this thread has been consistently blowing up so I'm having trouble first, keeping all 15 people straight is difficult and second, keeping up is really difficult. I'll be caught up and have reads out today.
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Stuff about Eevee, and people in relation to him
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
...
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
Robz, Robz. This is the sort of read that old Robz loved to give, and I really don't think it's that accurate. In this post you are suspecting Eevee for meta-reasons and suspecting Jimmmm for SFS-reasons (StraightForwardSystem, was it?). When I read this, Jimmm is the case that resonates with me much much more. I just think there are so many non-scum reasons for playing a bit differently than normal, that it never feels like a good case when people simply say "this person feels different". Now if we talk about HOW they are playing differently, then that's a little more substance. This argument that Eevee is more self-depricating than normal gives me slight pause, but I seem to recall times at which town-Eevee was self-depricating in his humorous way.
Still, in the end, I was really disappointed taht you ended this post by voting Eevee instead of Jimmm.
Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
I disagree entirely. There's no reason there HAS to be scum on this, regardless of Eevee's alignment. This game has 15 people; that's a lot of town votes.
Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.
Jimmm's contradiction was was unsound, and for that reason bad, there wasn't much too it other than Jimmm reading meaning/intent into a sentence, when that meaning wasn't originally there. The recent cases are better, but I still have a slight townread on Eevee.
Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
Please stop tunnelling so hard. Eevee's statement wasn't a straight-up lie, it was just an exaggeration. Nobody read it and said "oh cuzz IS always calling Eevee scummy."
I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
If I get my way, you will not be claiming at all today. I think you are a bad lynch for today. Please don't claim early.
I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.
Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today?
It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.
Robz, this is exactly how I read that too. Between teh Eevee/Jimmm interaction, they both may have felt a little weird, but Jimmmm felt inherently scummy. His original position seemed forced, the way he decreased suspicion bit-by-bit seemed staged, and now he "won't vote eevee". ALL of his opinions regarding eevee seem completely manufactured. I can't tell right now if that makes eevee more likely Jimmmm's partner, or town that Jimmm's trying to get credit from, but I'm very certain it makes Jimmmm scum. I think he's a much better lynch than Eevee.
Vote: Jimmmmm
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@shraeye: I completely agree with you on Jimm. I think that's a productive direction to go at this point, and I'm willing to put my vote there instead. (We're just not really at the point where it matters too much where my vote is, regardless.)
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We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
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We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.
What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.
I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.
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About Cuzz
Let's say we forget about the whole situation with your earlier case on Eevee and throw it all away. You're still saying that you refuse to consider voting for someone today whom you do not have a townread on, and that's an anti-town attitude.
This is a terrible premise for an argument. First, forget the main reason that is backing Jimmmm's opinion on somebody. Then analyze Jimmmm's opinion and call it out as anti-town. If you're saying Jimmm is scummy, then I agree. But if you're saying Jimmm is scummy simply for not wanting to vote for a nullread, then I disagree.
Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
so I'm not sure what changed.
I don't see any change between these two statements. You hadn't said much, and were also a nullread for me. I don't recall what you had said previously, but one can disagree to someone without attributing scumminess. I do this quite often. Like with Robz right now. I think he's wrong in voting Eevee, but I have a townread on him.
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
I dislike both of these statements. I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion. This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him. This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon. That actually makes things more suspicious to me. The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious. So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me. Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.
Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells. The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all. I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Here again cuzz is getting angry at not having a "legitimate reason" for the votes on him. Also this vote back on Eevee is 100% OMGUS in my book, and the logical conclusion at the end of the tunnel that Cuzz has been running down. The last time I saw tunnelly Cuzz, it was in Buffy mafia where I was telling Cuzz/yuma to stop tunnelling the bejeezus out of eachother. End story there was Cuzz was scum and yuma was town (yeah Cuzz was SK, but SK is scum in my book; same survivalist, lynch-anybody-but-my-team goals as mafia). So this makes me very suspicious of Cuzz.
Vote: Cuzz
is a good idea, but I'm torn between him and Jimmmm, two huge scumreads for me right now. I think I prefer Jimmmm.
Vote: Jimmmmm
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We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.
What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.
I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.
I agree with this take on LaLL for right now. I think it would be good if smaller posters got more scrutiny (and heck, they're easier to reread!) but I wouldn't want to lynch any one of them simply on the basis of lurking at this point in the game.
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No, I meant his analysis that not posting is an easy way to not get voted. Even in this game. I think that's a bad direction.
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Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
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No, I meant his analysis that not posting is an easy way to not get voted. Even in this game. I think that's a bad direction.
Ok, I see what you mean.
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Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.
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Ok guys, you ready?!?! Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee! There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it. The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.
Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it. In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake. Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason. Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure. Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.
I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.
Stop this nonsense, Munch. I know that you hate this sort of argument as a reason for voting, and I'm appalled that you are using it without qualms here. I think the general way he has been responding to pressure has made him sound towny to me. The bolded sentence that you provide is the reason you should unvote Eevee. You said that this impression has dissipated. Don't rely on stale "feelings" that you can't describe, that is not how *you* scumhunt well.
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Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.
:) I look forward to the point-by-point. I feel obliged to remind you that I don't respond at all to emotional responses.
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Shraeye everything you just said about me is complete bullshit and I look forward to responding point by point. Phone posting for now though so it will have to wait.
:) I look forward to the point-by-point. I feel obliged to remind you that I don't respond at all to emotional responses.
That's fine. I'm town in this game so I don't have to resort to them :)
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Some other miscellaneous responses I want to make, and assigning rereads to myself
I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.
I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.
So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.
I haven't done a reread of Jimmmm yet, and I will do this more fully in the future. I could see the merits of your first paragraph, but I want to check for myself. Thanks for pointing this out.
Eevee and Shraeye:
I was completely fooled by mcmc in the last blitz game, but you two had more of an inside look. I don't trust myself to read him well here, so while I've found him slightly scummy, I couldn't put my finger on it, and even if I could I would be unsure. I would like each of you to give your reads on him, or at least express if you believe he's acting much the same as in blitz, or differently.
I also need to do a momsalon (mcmcsalot) reread. He haven't really hit my radar in any consistent way, I recall some things that were mildly towny, and some things that were mildly scummy in this game. In contrast to Eevee, though, I thought there were some chinks in his scum-armor when playing blitz, so I'll keep a keen eye out to see if I can spot them when I reread.
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ash's recent posts have read towny to me
See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.
In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.
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Holy biscuits, Erma! Reread and was super disappointed to find that shraeye had presented a case on Jimmmmm while I was reading as Jimmmmm was the person I was reading. So, sorry guys, shraeyerae has struck again.
On reread there were a few things that struck me wrong about Jimmmmm. The first came at post #77 when I felt he was a bit snappier than necessary at Lio. The second came at his response to me (#95), he seemed genuine (or buddyish) when he said that did read snappier than he intended but then he says this:
Yeah that reads a lot snappier than I meant. I was actually really surprised to see you telling me to settle, until I re-read my post, and you have a point. I just don't think you should vote for me in order to force me to claim. Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
Something about the bold says "Stop drawing attention to this! Shhhhh! Stop!!" And that just seems like he maybe caught himself saying something he shouldn't have, realized it, and is trying to make it go away.
Next, we have post 97 where he agrees with me in questioning ash for voting for eevee without real cause. Maybe it's just because I'm not used to you people agreeing with me but it felt sort of sheepy, trying to start a wagon.
Then we have post 114 where he redirects the little argument ash and I were having regarding my scumminess to his case on eevee. At first I read this as townie because, let's be honest, ash and I weren't helping anybody but scum with that sidetrack but after theory pointed out that scum would want to end the day quickly I began to rethink that, maybe it was just solid scum-redirection. Still not sold on that particular point but definitely don't see it as pure town anymore.
Post 162 is another example of him trying to shut down discussion but this time in regards to his "don't lynch me before I claim!" comment. I just don't like that he's trying to shut down conversation because that is the only way for us to form opinions and analyze people.
Post 268 he wants to stop talking about the eevee case, again.
Post 273 says he voted for eevee to see how he'd respond to the pressure but it seems to me like Jimmmmm voted for eevee because of the case he had formed on him. Seems like he's trying to make it seem like it wasn't as big of a deal as he originally made it out to be.
Post 364 states that Cuzz and Galz seem to be the biggest targets today. I was super confused when I read that because I didn't remember either being heavy on anybody's radar. I went back a little bit and saw that yes, Cuzz did have two votes on him at that point but Galz didn't have a single one and people seemed to generally think he seemed townie. Just went back and skimmed one more time before posting this and still don't see anybody pointing serious fingers at Galz as of this (#364) post.
#367, 368, & 370 are him saying he'll vote for Cuzz for not participating but will give Galz a pass. Totally agree with shraeye here. It's strange wording at best.
#378 & 405 - shutting down conversation regarding eevee lynch, again (anybody sensing a pattern yet?)
#415 & 514 - Presents a flimsy case/read on momsalon that basically boils down to him being too new to read people as town or scum based on what they post. I don't agree with this and I don't like it. I suppose it isn't necessarily scummy by itself but coupled with everything above it feels like he's trying to draw suspicion around momsalon for no real reason.
So, in summary, I'm comfortable with a vote here.
Vote: Jimmmmm
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I wonder if Shraerae will be a voting block of 2 in every game they play together?
I repeat: Jimmmm is one of my strongest townreads (if not my strongest) at this point because I find he's been very internally consistent on multiple levels.
So I advocate against his lynch and will not be voting for him unless he or someone else says something to really change my mind.
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I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is. an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.
that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe. I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.
I want to reread cuzz.
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General Martok stops by Worf and Jadzia's quarters to return Worf's tooth-sharpener. He can't help but notice a bed made up on the couch.
"Trouble in the great battle of marriage, eh?" he says with a rough smile.
"I may have been ... overzealous in my hunt for Maquis sympathizers," Worf admits, snarling. "She said it was not 'good dinner conversation.'"
Vote Count 1.10
Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Cuzz (1): Galzria
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (2): yuma, Jimmmmm
ashersky (1): Glooble
Robz888(1): liopoil
Jimmmmm(2): Shraeye, raerae
Not Voting (1): Dsell
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
This flavor is just jumping all over the show's timeline. Oh well.
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Well, it seems most people have town reads on robz, and I don't want to lynch eevee. So I'm going to hop on a different wagon. Vote: Mcmcsalot
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I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is. an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.
that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe. I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.
I want to reread cuzz.
This is the second post of Munch's to give me an immediate scum vibe. It just seems like so much buddying: I agree with Dsell, who believes that Jimmmm is town, but the people who think the opposite seem town as well!
I mean, it's possible to have townreads on that many people, sure, but it looks like a lot of appeasement to me.
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I agree with dsell. nothing about thecase on Jimm seemed particularly damming as others seem to think it is. an insistence to stay alive and not talk about it is not particularly scummy to me. it's not particularly the same but at the end of xv when I felt it was obvious I was doctor for hammering joths fake claim it ended up not being obviousto scum and it was a good thing people didn't discuss it for as long as they did.
that being said, the people who are wary of Jim give me a town vibe. I disagree with the Jim case but I think it is also towny to be suspicious of him.
I want to reread cuzz.
This is the second post of Munch's to give me an immediate scum vibe. It just seems like so much buddying: I agree with Dsell, who believes that Jimmmm is town, but the people who think the opposite seem town as well!
I mean, it's possible to have townreads on that many people, sure, but it looks like a lot of appeasement to me.
Fun new game: what do we all think about Munch?
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I think the munch is awesomely pointing out things he does and doesn't agree with. apparently agreeing with people is scummy. also you can only either be for or against something. disagreeing with an idea means that everyone you disagree with its scum.
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I think the munch is awesomely pointing out things he does and doesn't agree with. apparently agreeing with people is scummy. also you can only either be for or against something. disagreeing with an idea means that everyone you disagree with its scum.
Not true at all, I disagreed with Jimmm's case on Eevee (that he later came to disagree with too) while maintaining that he read town to me. But you were giving a whole lot of town credit there with not a ton of reasons.
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I'm not sold either way on Munch. He hasn't said a whole lot. At least not enough for me to love or hate him.
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Hi shraeye. Here's my breakdown of your case against me. I'd also like it if others could read this carefully too. I don't often make massive wall of text posts, and when I do I hate feeling like they're going off into the ether to be ignored by everyone.
Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
Please stop tunnelling so hard. Eevee's statement wasn't a straight-up lie, it was just an exaggeration. Nobody read it and said "oh cuzz IS always calling Eevee scummy."
It was indeed a lie. Eevee said this:
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
At the time to which he is referring (ie, the time of his vote) I had not called him scummy once outside of RVS, let alone "all the time." I had in fact defended him once or twice. I don't know if it was a malicious scum lie, a lazy scum lie, or a lazy town lie, but it was certainly an untruth of some sort.
About Cuzz
Let's say we forget about the whole situation with your earlier case on Eevee and throw it all away. You're still saying that you refuse to consider voting for someone today whom you do not have a townread on, and that's an anti-town attitude.
This is a terrible premise for an argument. First, forget the main reason that is backing Jimmmm's opinion on somebody. Then analyze Jimmmm's opinion and call it out as anti-town. If you're saying Jimmm is scummy, then I agree. But if you're saying Jimmm is scummy simply for not wanting to vote for a nullread, then I disagree.
I've explained this a number of times. And it's frustrating because in my explanations, I think I've made it clear that it's a subtle point that one should be careful not to misinterpret, and yet you and raerae keep doing so. So consider this a response to her post #519 also. I DID NOT SAY that Jimmmmm was scummy for not wanting to vote for a nullread right that very instant. I said it was scummy for him to take someone he had a nullread on (Eevee), and put that person in a category of "will not lynch today." Such a category should be reserved for strong townreads. Not voting for someone is not the same as saying "I will definitely not vote for that person today." (Too many negatives?) The latter is scummy in this context, the former is not.
Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
so I'm not sure what changed.
I don't see any change between these two statements. You hadn't said much, and were also a nullread for me. I don't recall what you had said previously, but one can disagree to someone without attributing scumminess. I do this quite often. Like with Robz right now. I think he's wrong in voting Eevee, but I have a townread on him.
The change between those two statements was Eevee voting for me in the interim.
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
I dislike both of these statements. I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion. This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him. This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon. That actually makes things more suspicious to me. The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious. So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me. Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.
Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells. The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all. I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Here again cuzz is getting angry at not having a "legitimate reason" for the votes on him. Also this vote back on Eevee is 100% OMGUS in my book, and the logical conclusion at the end of the tunnel that Cuzz has been running down. The last time I saw tunnelly Cuzz, it was in Buffy mafia where I was telling Cuzz/yuma to stop tunnelling the bejeezus out of eachother. End story there was Cuzz was scum and yuma was town (yeah Cuzz was SK, but SK is scum in my book; same survivalist, lynch-anybody-but-my-team goals as mafia). So this makes me very suspicious of Cuzz.
These last two posts represent my least favorite part of mafia. That's the notion that defensiveness and voting for someone who voted you are both inherently scum behavior. You take issue with me "picking apart Eevee's case" on me. Well guess what? I thought it was a pretty damn awful case that he entirely failed to back up with evidence and I wanted to poke at it to determine if the lack of justification for his vote on me was scummy or lazy. When calling someone out for scummy voting behavior why should it make any bit of difference whether said scummy voting behavior entails that person voting for me or for someone else? But no, if I think scum might be voting for me, it's against the rules to vote them back because that would be "OMGUS," right? And only scum does that.
About the "zealous defense" you mention, you're trying to paint it as over the top and out of proportion since I only had two votes on me. Well, I don't care about the votes on me. I'm not even really "defending myself" (in the quotes you give that is. I am certainly doing so now). I'm picking apart what I find to be a bad case that happens to be against me. It doesn't matter how many votes are on me for me to do that.
With respect to your "tunneling Cuzz is scum Cuzz" remark, again I want to make clear what I had been doing in all the quotes you give. I'm not saying "hey all, Eevee is definitely scum, let's lynch him right now." That constitutes tunneling in my mind. What I had been doing was pressing Eevee himself to back up his case so I can gauge his reaction and not let him get away with making lazy unsubstantiated statements, so I can then decide if I think he's scum or not. So far, I have been unsatisfied with his responses and my vote on him remains.
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So my response read to you as scum rather than lazy town?
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As far as TheMunch is concerned, I have pretty much a null read on him, I lean slightly toward scum because when I ctrl/F his name there is a small gap where I assume he was getting caught up, he then posts some reads and information and then another huge gap where he posts nothing.
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FYI, I think flavor matters in this game.
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Flavor is for my own fun and the enjoyment of the few Trekkies amongst you. Trying to analyze it for game information is a fruitless endeavor you are advised against.
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Flavor is for my own fun and the enjoyment of the few Trekkies amongst you. Trying to analyze it for game information is a fruitless endeavor you are advised against.
Sure...
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I do wonder if all the characters in the flavor are in the game. That could potentially let us get some clues about the setup.
If we were interested in such things.
But knowing my brother, he probably gave some roles that are counter-intuitive for their flavor. Like DSell's suggestion that Bashir could be the doctor, but he would also make sense as a changeling cop.
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well my suggestion of more voting produced exactly the type of content that I was hoping for... now to actually take a look at it and post thoughts as they come.
1. the first couple of votes were, however, not what I was looking for... that is votes w/o meaning--or at least appearing w/o meaning. So FOS: eevee, lio
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2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
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2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
Funny, that interaction had the opposite effect for me. Maybe since we were scum together before?
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Oh mine was for a reason. I just didn't bother discussing it in that post. I had stated my ideas in a past post and was just now voting on them.
Just an idea, not sure if it's been said before, and not sure I think it's a good idea, just should be giving thought:
maybe we should all claim flavor names? I'm fairly sure they do contain info about people's role. Not their alignment, but their role.
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3. theorel however, brings up an interesting point about eevee and one that can be extrapolated to everyone in that scum metas aren't going to be either "town" or "scum." But this is compelling specifically about eevee. I guess I am hesitant, however, to establish this idea until it is confirmed--through night kills, lynches, investigations, that we have multiple scum teams. I am not saying I won't lynch eevee until this can be proved, but I am hesitant to use this philosophy as part of a rationale for voting.
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if they contain info about our roles but not our alignments (which seems reasonable), we definitely don't want to claim them. scum wants to find our power roles, the reason we don't fullclaim right now is that we want to protect them.
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Cuzz comes off scummier to me than Eevee. Something about his demeanor seems like he's trying to get a lynch fast, and that doesn't seem like a town mentality.
Eevee - agree %100 about not name claiming. I was about to say exactly that.
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4. Jimmm's behavior has been unusual.... the question is whether or not it is just erratic town play, or scum. Generally I think that erratic play is town. Scum tend to be a bit more conservative. But scum can play erratically when put under pressure. That is the whole idea of putting pressure on players, to see how they respond. Jimmm has been put under a bit of pressure, and I especially liked shraeye's case on him. I appreciate a bit more shraeye's style of scum hunting now, because I was coming to the same conclusions as shraeye about Jimmm independent of him, but I do disagree with shraeye's conclusion about Cuzz... Dsell provides a "defense" for him, but it is not compelling at all, basically that he has been consistent (which I disagree with) and that he continues to have a town read on Dsell... at this point I feel comfortable with a vote: Jimmm
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I think the Jimmmmm lynch could be a good one, in the end. Plenty of posts, plenty of interactions to study, plenty of stands taken by and upon. Would not be a bad D1 lynch, in my opinion.
I think we should keep him on the short list.
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Oh mine was for a reason. I just didn't bother discussing it in that post. I had stated my ideas in a past post and was just now voting on them.
ok, well as a suggestion and really this is for everyone, perhaps including me as well, if you feel you have already made a case on someone, but haven't yet voted for them and are about to plop down a vote on them... going back and quoting that post (not necessarily the whole thing, just the link would work) would help people remember that you had a case to begin with. Otherwise I really don't know why you voted
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ahh yes, that makes sense. So lets not claim then.
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2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
Funny, that interaction had the opposite effect for me. Maybe since we were scum together before?
Didn't you call me the most likely town on the Eevee wagon?
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But knowing my brother, he probably gave some roles that are counter-intuitive for their flavor. Like DSell's suggestion that Bashir could be the doctor, but he would also make sense as a changeling cop.
I have no idea who said this, but it wasn't me. I know nothing of DS9. XD
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But knowing my brother, he probably gave some roles that are counter-intuitive for their flavor. Like DSell's suggestion that Bashir could be the doctor, but he would also make sense as a changeling cop.
I have no idea who said this, but it wasn't me. I know nothing of DS9. XD
That was me.
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Okay, so I don't have a good explanation for this. It's a feeling-thing, which is not a good reason for a case...but I figured I'd note it anyways. It's especially strange to me because it coincides with a bunch of people giving him a town-read, but:
shraeye has started seeming scummy to me.
In other news: raerae seems more town lately, or if not more town, more genuine. I'd say she's neutral at the moment, maybe leaning town.
It's weird because, my scum-read of shraeye started around when he posted his case on Jimmmmm, but it clearly isn't because of that case since raerae posted a highly similar case. Anyways, I've mentioned before in some game (VIII maybe?) that I tend to trust my intuition. This is obviously not a case, it's just a feeling, but I'm going to review and see if I can pin down something concrete. Anyways, I'm mentioning it now in case I don't get him all nice and reviewed in a timely fashion.
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2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
Funny, that interaction had the opposite effect for me. Maybe since we were scum together before?
Didn't you call me the most likely town on the Eevee wagon?
Most likely scum on the Eevee wagon.
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Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
I don't have a townread on Galz. Please read the reasons I gave for not wanting to lynch Galz today:
You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
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When was the soft deadline again?
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When was the soft deadline again?
In 29 minutes.
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Umm... +1 week?
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I could go Eevee or Jimm at this point. Really I don't vastly prefer one or the other.
4. Jimmm's behavior has been unusual.... the question is whether or not it is just erratic town play, or scum. Generally I think that erratic play is town. Scum tend to be a bit more conservative. But scum can play erratically when put under pressure. That is the whole idea of putting pressure on players, to see how they respond. Jimmm has been put under a bit of pressure, and I especially liked shraeye's case on him. I appreciate a bit more shraeye's style of scum hunting now, because I was coming to the same conclusions as shraeye about Jimmm independent of him, but I do disagree with shraeye's conclusion about Cuzz... Dsell provides a "defense" for him, but it is not compelling at all, basically that he has been consistent (which I disagree with) and that he continues to have a town read on Dsell... at this point I feel comfortable with a vote: Jimmm
Yeah, I think erratic behavior can be town behavior. But I don't think Jimm is behaving erratically. He is responding to various pressures put on him, to the various extent that other people like the cases he builds. Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimm is nervous.
But I still say something's off about Eevee.
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Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimm is nervous.
Hmm, that's an interesting take. I'm not actually sure if that's true or not.
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Oh, I figured out the scum-read on shraeye.
He's voting Jimmmmm without a case. He's posted basically 3 things about Jimmmmm (he's posted some of them multiple times):
1. The Eevee contradiction problem. Shraeye seems to believe "If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction."
Now, I'm willing to admit that Eevee's wording was clumsy and the contradiction could come from that. Here are the two statements unclipped:
Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw).
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
Well, IMO there is a clear implication in the first statement that he could have cleared himself. If he wouldn't have answered then he couldn't have cleared himself, so it could not have been worse in the way which he described. If he had said, "it could be worse - I could have gotten here before joth and been unable to answer without gaining the same towncred", then that would have created NO contradiction.
I'll agree that the intent is consistent...but to act like "there's no way anyone could get a contradiction out of those statements in context" is silly.
2. Jimmmmm's 180 on Eevee, which Cuzz called out and Robz called out. He agrees that this is more likely to be scum wanting to escape a bad argument than town wanting to escape a bad argument. I felt a need to talk about point 1, because part of that is inherent in thinking that it was a totally contrived argument to begin with.
Now at this point, this could read like a legitimate case to me, except one niggling thing:
Jimm is now my top scum read, with the amount of analysis he has had I read him as a very smart player who know what hes doing.
...
Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
But I'm really not sold that Jimmm was trying to trick people. I think he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person. So I have a very slight scumread from this, that increased to slight because of how hard it seemed he was pushing it. But I'm not at all close to wanting to vote for him yet.
(Note: I'm grouping this with 1 as it was a discussion about the contradiction argument)
The growth of this scum-read seems forced to me.
And, 3. Jimmmmm just commented on...
Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
I don't have a townread on Galz. Please read the reasons I gave for not wanting to lynch Galz today:
You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
Oh, one other relevant comment (IMO) from shraeye:
...it never feels like a good case when people simply say "this person feels different". Now if we talk about HOW they are playing differently, then that's a little more substance.
...
in context he's criticizing Robz for using a meta-argument against Eevee while using a straight-forward argument against Jimmmmm (the 180 thing).
The whole start of shraeye's suspicion of Jimmmmm was "he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person". (see quote above)
Anyways, I'm pretty sure those are the dots my mind connected to conjure a scum-read on shraeye. It could be a natural growth of a scum-read, but it just feels wrong. It feels wrong that shraeye has posted several points of argument against Cuzz, with little against Jimmmmm.
Note: I'm not 100% sure how I feel about Jimmmmm, he seems vaguely townie to me, but really this has more to do with shraeye's argument than Jimmmmm's alignment.
For the time being, I will vote: shraeye.
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I think I understand why opinions on me are divided. I also think my case is an easy one to push if you look at my game broadly instead of bothering with details.
Not trying to make any particular point, just a couple of thoughts.
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Hmm, now these two things are interesting:
Jimmm has been put under a bit of pressure, and I especially liked shraeye's case on him.
He's voting Jimmmmm without a case.
I must admit, when I read what yuma wrote I thought "Huh? What case? He seemed to say a lot about Eevee and then vote for me." There's a little bit there on me, but not that much.
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To answer theorel, I said before that this reaction from me was in fact over the top. It was due to the fact that I had put too much faith in someone else's argument early on in the game and realized I cannot do that as I cannot trust anyone.
I do however have a strong scum read on Jim now because of the way he has acted under pressure and because of the case he has made against me. I believe his case against me is poor and flawed, I would like him to answer my previous question or at least explain what he meant. I will quote it in the next post for reference.
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Hmm, now these two things are interesting:
Jimmm has been put under a bit of pressure, and I especially liked shraeye's case on him.
He's voting Jimmmmm without a case.
I must admit, when I read what yuma wrote I thought "Huh? What case? He seemed to say a lot about Eevee and then vote for me." There's a little bit there on me, but not that much.
and when I read this I thought "Huh? There was a pretty big post about it!" But I looked back and realized that a lot of the text I was attributing to shraeye, was actually written by raerae.
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ash's recent posts have read towny to me
See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.
In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.
Lastly Jim I believe you have taken my post about ash out of context as you did with your case on eevee to make your argument seem stronger. This seems intrinsically scummy, as you have done it twice now.
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Mc, In what way did he take it out of context?
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Ash did you misspeak in one of these quotes? They contradict each other.
Townier, but not obv!town. Most likely town voting for Eevee is Cuzz.
2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
Funny, that interaction had the opposite effect for me. Maybe since we were scum together before?
Didn't you call me the most likely town on the Eevee wagon?
Most likely scum on the Eevee wagon.
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Mc, In what way did he take it out of context?
He didn't take it out of context sorry for misspeaking, but separated from the rest of my post makes it sound more scummy than with the rest, for example I did not just exclaim ash seems towny to me, it was my reasoning for removing a vote that had become stale. It was also not my only reason for removing my vote. This by itself is not a big deal, coupled with the previous miss representation of eevee's posts it makes me worry he is pushing for people and trying to gather support rather than presenting a case. This seems like a much scummier way of going about things and not the most pro town.
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So my response read to you as scum rather than lazy town?
So far I'm leaning that way. I think I asked you for a couple of pretty straightforward clarifications and got the sense that you were brushing them off and dodging the questions.
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Cuzz comes off scummier to me than Eevee. Something about his demeanor seems like he's trying to get a lynch fast, and that doesn't seem like a town mentality.
I am totally not trying to push a lynch fast. I think I've covered this, but I was prodding Eevee for clarifications of his reasoning. I do think his responses and lacks thereof were scummy, but I'm not trying to ram his lynch through asap.
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Cuzz, you claimed your first vote on Eevee was just a joke. When you got back to the thread and finally caught up, you unvoted.
What happened between posts #222, where you unvoted, and #411 when you put your vote back that made you think Eevee was scum after all?
It was all to do with his voting for me without reason, and the subsequent dodging of the requests for clarification. I know I've covered this a lot, but I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your direct question to me from earlier.
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Ash did you misspeak in one of these quotes? They contradict each other.
Actually, no, I don't think I misspoke. Clearly they are opposite. I don't remember why I felt the first way, but I think the second way is correct.
To clarify, I think the tunneling was too much, and came off scummy with the "lies! lies!" stuff. I'd say most likely town voting for Eevee is actually Robz. So maybe I did misspeak? Maybe I meant most likely scum voting for Eevee the first time, too? Who was I responding to the first time?
Townier, but not obv!town. Most likely town voting for Eevee is Cuzz.
2. the cuzz-eevee interaction is interesting. I think that I get a town read from Cuzz out of it. But more of a slight scum read from eevee, but not enough to vote for at this time for me.
Funny, that interaction had the opposite effect for me. Maybe since we were scum together before?
Didn't you call me the most likely town on the Eevee wagon?
Most likely scum on the Eevee wagon.
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You had been responding to this Ashersky:
Ashersky and Jimmm - You two both voted Eevee earlier. There's now a wagon on him without your votes. How do you feel regarding Eevee now? More scummy? Less? If each of you accepts yourself to be town, then who out of the 5 other people to have voted Eevee - or Eevee himself - do you think is most likely scum?
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I have no idea who I'd like to lynch, just a few people I know I dont want to see lynched. We should absolutely start to make progress towards lynching someone now though.
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I have no idea who I'd like to lynch, just a few people I know I dont want to see lynched. We should absolutely start to make progress towards lynching someone now though.
What are your feelings towards Jimmm? Three people voted for him (Shraeye, Raerae, Yuma), and Robz expressed a strong willingness to vote as well. I believe a few others have placed suspicion his way on top of those 4.
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I don't want to lynch him. It's not that I have a super strong town read on him or anything (I guess slight town is how I'd describe it), but he quite frankly deserves to live for being so active in the game. If I had investigational powers, I'd use them on him tonight.
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I don't want to lynch him. It's not that I have a super strong town read on him or anything (I guess slight town is how I'd describe it), but he quite frankly deserves to live for being so active in the game. If I had investigational powers, I'd use them on him tonight.
So the only two wagons to grow above two votes have been you and Jimmm (Cuzz briefly, perhaps? Me/You/Robz?). I'm actually finding Cuzz's recent posts to read more townie, and certainly my original reasoning for voting (that he was only engaging in easy setup talk to sound like he was participating without actually saying anything of value) him no longer stands up. As I should probably unvote.
However, if you and Jimmm ate off the table, who do you suggest gets more scrutiny?
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Missing word in last sentence of first paragraph:
As *such* I should...
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Erm, and I really don't recommend eating pdf the table. It's a dirty, nasty place.
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Grrrr! Fucking phone. FoS: autocorrect.
pdf above = off.
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Can you give me a post count? On mobile.
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Can you give me a post count? On mobile.
As am I, but give me a few.
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Fwiw, what I'm looking to find is a new target, someone who has a low post count for themself and who hasn't done anything memorable at all. Someone who has posted a lot of jokes, easy theory answers or questions, rules clarifications or the likes.
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Robz - 76
Jimm - 70
Ashersky - 65
Eevee - 59
Galzria - 52
Cuzz - 51
Raerae - 37
Shraeye - 30
Yuma - 29
mcmc - 26
Dsell - 20
Glooble - 18
Sparky/Munch - 15
Theorel - 14
Liopoil - 13
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Thing is, outside of liopoil whom I don't have any basis for, I don't think anybody there has been lurking against their standards. Maaaybe Munch, who has 12 posts since replacing in, but even there...
Like I noted earlier, I'm just not sure LALL is going to be a viable tool this game based simply on the levels of activity so far. There won't be "easy, low hanging fruit" like there often is. Finding scum is going to require more substantial effort.
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That said, it is time for me to focus in on the people I have trouble reading. Theorel and Yuma are my assignments for tomorrow, because I honestly don't know if I could tell their scum play from their town play at a passing glance.
Tonight however, it's bed time.
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Liopol has contributed a lot when he has posted, especially for a new player. Don't support.
Theorel always posts scarce but long, so this isn't a suspicious post count.
However, I don't see a reason for the town read many people seem to have on him. I agree he is a smart guy and posts excellent theory, generally makes sense.
Can someone point out something he has said he couldn't say if he was scum, though?
Sparky is always a super lurker and always scum. Munch has been more active, but hasn't
given me a town vibe. He rarely does though,
but now that I think back of the games we've played I don't think I've read
him wrong THAT often so this would actually be a lynch I could support.
Glooble has a normal post count for himself. I've agreed with most of what he has said. I probably think too positive about him because he has been defending me,
but wouldn't like to see him lynched.
Dsell I think is still the most likely of you guys to be town. I'd probably vote for him in this post if the Eevee-incident never occurred though, he fits the scum bill I described above rather well.
mcmc: meh, feels towny to me but would have fooled me in the blitz
game too.
Yuma: invisiyuma actually has quite a lot of posts here, he tends to post long to definitely more than I would have assumed. the things I said about glooble apply to yuma quite well, except for the fact that I know he is capable of seeming towny to me as scum. I think me correctly reading
yuma's towniness in switch mafia played a big part in town's victory, but I don't ever remember having a correct scum read on him.
Running out of battery so going to have to cut this one short. Something about the playstyle of munch/shraeye/raerae always reads suspicious to me.
I notice it again here, I wouldn't oppose a case on any of
them and I can't very accurately explain why. I'll Vote: themunch now, but I'm recognizing this problem and my uneasy feeling about him might mean less than it should.
The guys whose lynch I'd oppose more vehemently would be at the top half of the post count, but I won't get to them now with my 1% battery life.
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Liopol has contributed a lot when he has posted, especially for a new player. Don't support.
Theorel always posts scarce but long, so this isn't a suspicious post count.
However, I don't see a reason for the town read many people seem to have on him. I agree he is a smart guy and posts excellent theory, generally makes sense.
Can someone point out something he has said he couldn't say if he was scum, though?
Sparky is always a super lurker and always scum. Munch has been more active, but hasn't
given me a town vibe. He rarely does though,
but now that I think back of the games we've played I don't think I've read
him wrong THAT often so this would actually be a lynch I could support.
Glooble has a normal post count for himself. I've agreed with most of what he has said. I probably think too positive about him because he has been defending me,
but wouldn't like to see him lynched.
Dsell I think is still the most likely of you guys to be town. I'd probably vote for him in this post if the Eevee-incident never occurred though, he fits the scum bill I described above rather well.
mcmc: meh, feels towny to me but would have fooled me in the blitz
game too.
Yuma: invisiyuma actually has quite a lot of posts here, he tends to post long to definitely more than I would have assumed. the things I said about glooble apply to yuma quite well, except for the fact that I know he is capable of seeming towny to me as scum. I think me correctly reading
yuma's towniness in switch mafia played a big part in town's victory, but I don't ever remember having a correct scum read on him.
Running out of battery so going to have to cut this one short. Something about the playstyle of munch/shraeye/raerae always reads suspicious to me.
I notice it again here, I wouldn't oppose a case on any of
them and I can't very accurately explain why. I'll Vote: themunch now, but I'm recognizing this problem and my uneasy feeling about him might mean less than it should.
The guys whose lynch I'd oppose more vehemently would be at the top half of the post count, but I won't get to them now with my 1% battery life.
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You had been responding to this Ashersky:
Ashersky and Jimmm - You two both voted Eevee earlier. There's now a wagon on him without your votes. How do you feel regarding Eevee now? More scummy? Less? If each of you accepts yourself to be town, then who out of the 5 other people to have voted Eevee - or Eevee himself - do you think is most likely scum?
So I misspoke, yes. Cuzz was most likely scum then and now.
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internet on the train is terrible as usual, sorry that got posted twice.
I very much agree with both of Galzria's posts I didnt read before posting my last. Looking forward to your thoughts about yuma and theorel, I have the exact same problem.
They are both just very good at playing scum. I'm pleased you found Munch's posting most suspicious on the meta level as well. Makes me feel better about my vote.
I wouldn't try to find a place for my vote like this if I had stronger, more specific scum reads.
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Its not mentioned in the original post, but do we think scum have any extra powers like one shot BP or anything like that? Given multiple teams I bet they do. A two man scum team against 11 town (many with powers) and another two man scum team seems tough to win with. (just an example here of course)
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Its not mentioned in the original post, but do we think scum have any extra powers like one shot BP or anything like that? Given multiple teams I bet they do. A two man scum team against 11 town (many with powers) and another two man scum team seems tough to win with. (just an example here of course)
Oh, certainly they probably do, I think. Unless the PRs the town has are REALLY negative utility.
The only thing we know is that there are exactly 3 Cops, but they could be any alignment.
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- Everyone else will have a small role - either an X-shot version of a power role or a role of marginal or even negative utility.
- These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum, exception being of course the cops, and the IC-variant if there is one.
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- Everyone else will have a small role - either an X-shot version of a power role or a role of marginal or even negative utility.
- These roles, and characters, will be assigned 100% independent of alignment. Knowing someone's role or character will not tell you if they're scum, exception being of course the cops, and the IC-variant if there is one.
Ah ok. I read that as only referring to the "everyone else" part, meaning not scum nor the three cops. But I got it now.
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Pretty quiet day.
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Pretty quiet day.
I'll have time to re-read the latest stuff and start commenting. Hopefully I can get some responses.
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Pretty quiet day.
I'll have time to re-read the latest stuff and start commenting. Hopefully I can get some responses.
was hoping for some responses to things I posted earlier, my 3-5 window of time online is about gone now, I'll check back around 11
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Okay, so not much new to mention. Here are the topics of recency, I think: theorel's case on shraeye, the Jimmmmm wagon, Eevee's vote for TheMunch, and the lack of true lurkers.
I think Theorel's case on shraeye is okay. I do think shraeye's been less present than other games, and he's been less town!shraeye than we're used to. He's been a null read to me all game. One thing I'd note is that, even with the shraeray hitting everyone, I don't think shraeye's actually been all that in line with raerae, and in fact seems to be distancing himself, possible for twin claim reasons.
The Jimmmmm wagon I've commented on previously. I think it is a useful lynch, in the sense that all of his posting, opinions, and interactions will be super helpful post-flip. I don't think he's the scummiest player in the game though, so if that's what you're going for on D1, Jimmmmm ain't it.
Eevee's vote on TheMunch was scummy. I mean, we all see that, right? I don't mean that it makes Eevee scum, but given all the Eevee talk this game, for him to plop down a vote with a "I gotta bad feeling I can't explain" as his reason is pretty scummy. I don't recall where I put TheMunch on my lynch list, and he hasn't been around lately to help that out, so I don't know that him having a vote bothers me at all, but the way Eevee voted wasn't towny.
On the lack of lurkers...it's a good thing, and makes the game interesting. It's slowed down these last two RL days, for some reason, but I imagine it'll get back on a roll soon. I think Galzria is mostly right that no one is really lurking based on their normal metas.
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Okay, so not much new to mention. Here are the topics of recency, I think: theorel's case on shraeye, the Jimmmmm wagon, Eevee's vote for TheMunch, and the lack of true lurkers.
I think Theorel's case on shraeye is okay. I do think shraeye's been less present than other games, and he's been less town!shraeye than we're used to. He's been a null read to me all game. One thing I'd note is that, even with the shraeray hitting everyone, I don't think shraeye's actually been all that in line with raerae, and in fact seems to be distancing himself, possible for twin claim reasons.
The Jimmmmm wagon I've commented on previously. I think it is a useful lynch, in the sense that all of his posting, opinions, and interactions will be super helpful post-flip. I don't think he's the scummiest player in the game though, so if that's what you're going for on D1, Jimmmmm ain't it.
Eevee's vote on TheMunch was scummy. I mean, we all see that, right? I don't mean that it makes Eevee scum, but given all the Eevee talk this game, for him to plop down a vote with a "I gotta bad feeling I can't explain" as his reason is pretty scummy. I don't recall where I put TheMunch on my lynch list, and he hasn't been around lately to help that out, so I don't know that him having a vote bothers me at all, but the way Eevee voted wasn't towny.
On the lack of lurkers...it's a good thing, and makes the game interesting. It's slowed down these last two RL days, for some reason, but I imagine it'll get back on a roll soon. I think Galzria is mostly right that no one is really lurking based on their normal metas.
I hate to just agree without adding anything, but these are pretty much my exact thoughts concerning Theorel on shraeye, the Jimm situation, and Eevee.
ONe thing though: you say you think shraeye is distancing himself from raerae. You may be right; I just haven't noticed it. I have such trouble keeping their contributions separate. Which is funny, because raerae posts and shraeye posts don't actually sound similar.
Agreed about Eevee's vote on Munch. I have a null-town-ish read on Munch, because I thought his contributions after he subbed in did much to repair sparky's under-posting.
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Really Robz? You want to go for the informational lynch on me? I thought of all people that just wouldn't fly with you. I distinctly remember being scolded in my first game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5395.msg147208#msg147208) for even discussing an informational lynch.
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ONe thing though: you say you think shraeye is distancing himself from raerae. You may be right; I just haven't noticed it. I have such trouble keeping their contributions separate. Which is funny, because raerae posts and shraeye posts don't actually sound similar.
You are right that they don't sound alike at all, but I think we just assume that shraeye defends raerae, but he doesn't. In fact, it might have been you that this game said shraeye did, reread, then admited he didn't. Was that you? Someone did that this very game.
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.
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Actually, I just remembered you're voting for Eevee. Nevermind.
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Lynching the most active guy because his flip would be information is just TERRIBLE. Like, I can't find harsh enough words to accurately describe how strongly I'm against that. Do you really want to encourage people to lurk? I'm fine with people voting for Jimm because they think he is scummy, I personally don't but I can see that. I don't have a strong town read on him, no. But voting someone because he WAS active and took a lot of positions, in a two scum team game none the less? Insanityyyyyyy.
Theorel's case on shraeye I can get behind. I am totally fine with a shraeye lynch, in fact I think it's one of the best alternatives. But, as I said, I think Munch, shraeye and raerae all have quite similar playstyles, and something about it just always reads inherently scummy to me. So I'm not the best judge here.
ashersky and Robz, what should I have done?`What about my vote on munch and the post was scummt? What should I have done differently?
I don't have any gut- or case-based reasons to call for anyone's lynch, at least not strong enough. And I have these biases of never seeing certain guys scummy and always suspecting some people, so it's not ideal anyways. So, in lack of better methods, I try to check objective facts. I think we all agree most people post less than usual when scum. So, I tried to go through the post count with that in mind, trying to see if someone's behavior seemed off. Landed on sparky/munch. I'm not foolproof positive it's a scum lynch, but I can't give out negative votes to my town reads and I'd rather have my vote on someone I think is more likely to be scum than random, than not vote at all.
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ONe thing though: you say you think shraeye is distancing himself from raerae. You may be right; I just haven't noticed it. I have such trouble keeping their contributions separate. Which is funny, because raerae posts and shraeye posts don't actually sound similar.
You are right that they don't sound alike at all, but I think we just assume that shraeye defends raerae, but he doesn't. In fact, it might have been you that this game said shraeye did, reread, then admited he didn't. Was that you? Someone did that this very game.
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.
Just looking for clarification, distraction in that we are distracting from the game with what we post or that discussion of how we interact in game is a distraction or something else entirely?
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ONe thing though: you say you think shraeye is distancing himself from raerae. You may be right; I just haven't noticed it. I have such trouble keeping their contributions separate. Which is funny, because raerae posts and shraeye posts don't actually sound similar.
You are right that they don't sound alike at all, but I think we just assume that shraeye defends raerae, but he doesn't. In fact, it might have been you that this game said shraeye did, reread, then admited he didn't. Was that you? Someone did that this very game.
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.
Yeah that was me.
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Really Robz? You want to go for the informational lynch on me? I thought of all people that just wouldn't fly with you. I distinctly remember being scolded in my first game (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5395.msg147208#msg147208) for even discussing an informational lynch.
As you later note, I'm not voting for you, so I have yet to come aboard for your lynch. I guess I do find you scummier than ashersky does, so it's not exactly informational only or something.
I mean the big thing holding me back on you (and Eevee) is your high post counts.
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Lynching the most active guy because his flip would be information is just TERRIBLE. Like, I can't find harsh enough words to accurately describe how strongly I'm against that. Do you really want to encourage people to lurk? I'm fine with people voting for Jimm because they think he is scummy, I personally don't but I can see that. I don't have a strong town read on him, no. But voting someone because he WAS active and took a lot of positions, in a two scum team game none the less? Insanityyyyyyy.
Yeah, I'm not voting for Jimm, and I was, it would not be because he was active and took lots of position. It would be because of his nervous shifting in order to keep ahead of public sentiment. And as you say, you and him have nicely high post counts.
It's also true though, as I've pointed out, that you two have had to defend yourselves far, far, more than anyone else. Which inflates your counts quite a bit. I don't think your contributions are far and away beyond everyone else.
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ONe thing though: you say you think shraeye is distancing himself from raerae. You may be right; I just haven't noticed it. I have such trouble keeping their contributions separate. Which is funny, because raerae posts and shraeye posts don't actually sound similar.
You are right that they don't sound alike at all, but I think we just assume that shraeye defends raerae, but he doesn't. In fact, it might have been you that this game said shraeye did, reread, then admited he didn't. Was that you? Someone did that this very game.
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.
Just looking for clarification, distraction in that we are distracting from the game with what we post or that discussion of how we interact in game is a distraction or something else entirely?
You guys aren't the ones doing the distracting. I meant we, as town, shouldn't let the constant idea of the shraeray distract us from scumhunting, etc.
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Lynching the most active guy because his flip would be information is just TERRIBLE. Like, I can't find harsh enough words to accurately describe how strongly I'm against that. Do you really want to encourage people to lurk? I'm fine with people voting for Jimm because they think he is scummy, I personally don't but I can see that. I don't have a strong town read on him, no. But voting someone because he WAS active and took a lot of positions, in a two scum team game none the less? Insanityyyyyyy.
Theorel's case on shraeye I can get behind. I am totally fine with a shraeye lynch, in fact I think it's one of the best alternatives. But, as I said, I think Munch, shraeye and raerae all have quite similar playstyles, and something about it just always reads inherently scummy to me. So I'm not the best judge here.
ashersky and Robz, what should I have done?`What about my vote on munch and the post was scummt? What should I have done differently?
I don't have any gut- or case-based reasons to call for anyone's lynch, at least not strong enough. And I have these biases of never seeing certain guys scummy and always suspecting some people, so it's not ideal anyways. So, in lack of better methods, I try to check objective facts. I think we all agree most people post less than usual when scum. So, I tried to go through the post count with that in mind, trying to see if someone's behavior seemed off. Landed on sparky/munch. I'm not foolproof positive it's a scum lynch, but I can't give out negative votes to my town reads and I'd rather have my vote on someone I think is more likely to be scum than random, than not vote at all.
I was noting that his lynch would be informational, but that he's not the scummiest choice. I'm also not voting Jimmmmm. I'm not even encouraging the lynch.
On your Munch vote, you needed to give better reasons than you did. Like, a reason reason. Bad reasons are fine with me, btw, if they are something you noted and believe.
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You guys aren't the ones doing the distracting. I meant we, as town, shouldn't let the constant idea of the shraeray distract us from scumhunting, etc.
Cool. Thanks, I appreciate it.
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Reasons: Process of elimination / lack of better targets, both him and sparky have played the way they play scum in my opinion, hasn't been able to give out town vibes or make analysis that has seemed towny to me. Post count on the lower end of the spectrum.
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I think the fact that his lynch would give info along with the fact that he is likely hated aren't basis of a lynch, but a reason to be slighty more inclined to lynch him if we also think that he is acting like scum.
This game is very confusing. I am not nearly as sure about many of the things I have said in many of my posts. I have forgotten my arguments for/against people. I am going to Unvote until I can do a thorough re-read of a lot of things.
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When exactly is the deadline?
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ash's recent posts have read towny to me
See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.
In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.
Lastly Jim I believe you have taken my post about ash out of context as you did with your case on eevee to make your argument seem stronger. This seems intrinsically scummy, as you have done it twice now.
Okay, I'll do my best to answer this. You seems to have a problem with clipping quotes, but I'm going to clip them anyway, since otherwise this will be a very long post, and that's what you do when you're talking about one part of a post, and not the full post. If you want the full context, there's a link to each post on top of the quote.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion.
Seeing as you said this, you need to be held to this standard just as much as anyone else.
I read through everything and dunno, get a slight scum vibe from eevee and liopoil. To explain eevee reminds me of how he played in the last blits game, and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
One token read, one joke (just pointing that out because I'm ignoring it). It's easy enough to say "Eevee's scum because he reminds me of his last game". How does he remind you of his last game? Examples?
Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Why are you inclined to think Eevee's town? Last we heard from you he was scummy.
Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.
Again, what about his analysis post? Point to what he said that you thought was scummy, and why you thought it was scummy.
Went to bed at 11, woke up at 9 to 4 pages!
unvote this is because of two reason, the second being knowingly terrible, 1) ash's recent posts have read towny to me and 2) my scum read on him is from posts pages and pages ago, they have been lost in so many other things I couldn't make a case on him if I was asked to.
How have they seemed towny to you?
As far as TheMunch is concerned, I have pretty much a null read on him, I lean slightly toward scum because when I ctrl/F his name there is a small gap where I assume he was getting caught up, he then posts some reads and information and then another huge gap where he posts nothing.
You think he's scummy because he sleeps? Why do you think these gaps make him scummy?
I do however have a strong scum read on Jim now because of the way he has acted under pressure and because of the case he has made against me. I believe his case against me is poor and flawed, I would like him to answer my previous question or at least explain what he meant. I will quote it in the next post for reference.
How have I acted under pressure? Refer to a post. Why does having what you think is a poor case against you scummy?
(Questions largely rhetorical)
Like I said, I've been getting a weird vibe from you all game, and I think I've figured out why, but I'm not having the easiest time explaining it. I just think that someone in their first game as Town is likely to get to the point where they say "I just don't know! You're ALL scum! But you're all Town!" This can be a very frustrating and confusing game, especially in your first game as Town. But I'm just not getting that "first game as Town" vibe from you. You just seem to me to be chugging along throwing out "reads".
Is this a strong case? I don't know. Obviously mcmc will disagree with it. In general I don't think I have terribly much pull, but mcmc's game has just struck me as a little odd, and hopefully this explains a little clearer why.
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My town read on liopoil is dwindling fwiw. I also got to remember mcmc was able to fool me in last game and both PPS and Young Nick back in VII, so I might not give new guys enough credit as scum players because I myself sucked so bad at it. Still wouldn't want to lynch the new guy on day 1, purely for off-game "lets be a welcoming community" reasons I realize are not very good.
Jimm's case on mcmc looks decent. I wouldn't oppose lynching mcmc.
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Reasons: Process of elimination / lack of better targets, both him and sparky have played the way they play scum in my opinion, hasn't been able to give out town vibes or make analysis that has seemed towny to me. Post count on the lower end of the spectrum.
Can you elaborate on these? I want to be able to spot scum!Munch.
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I think the fact that his lynch would give info along with the fact that he is likely hated aren't basis of a lynch, but a reason to be slighty more inclined to lynch him if we also think that he is acting like scum.
This game is very confusing. I am not nearly as sure about many of the things I have said in many of my posts. I have forgotten my arguments for/against people. I am going to Unvote until I can do a thorough re-read of a lot of things.
I think the bolded part is misinformation at this point, and you should not keep spreading it. The chance that he's actually hated is pretty low, it was clear he just wanted time to make a claim if needed, to me. I understand that feeling, given I also live in Australia (and have been lynched in my sleep often), so our time zones are way off from most everyone else.
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Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.
Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".
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oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!
oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...
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oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!
oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...
I thought he was, but other people seem to think not.
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oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!
oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...
I thought he was, but other people seem to think not.
I really think he was just saying he was willing to claim at L-2 or whatever, not that he would die at L-1. I mean, that's easily proved, right?
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I agree now. I don't think he is hated. When we were talking about it he didn't go either way. If he posted the thing about giving him a chance to claim with the intention of giving us the idea that he is hated then he would have just claimed to be hated in the insuing discussion.
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Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.
Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".
A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait. He's quite the bold predicter, usually. So I can see him getting some scum points.
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Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
Please stop tunnelling so hard. Eevee's statement wasn't a straight-up lie, it was just an exaggeration. Nobody read it and said "oh cuzz IS always calling Eevee scummy."
It was indeed a lie. Eevee said this:
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
At the time to which he is referring (ie, the time of his vote) I had not called him scummy once outside of RVS, let alone "all the time." I had in fact defended him once or twice. I don't know if it was a malicious scum lie, a lazy scum lie, or a lazy town lie, but it was certainly an untruth of some sort.
my point wasn't to argue the veracity of Eevee's claim. It's that the way you bolded and italicized the word lie (and you had mentioned this lie other times as well) really was painting it as a malicious lie. My point was that it wasn't a malicious lie at all in my opinion, and I thought you were pushing that point rather hard.
But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion. This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him. This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon. That actually makes things more suspicious to me. The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious. So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me. Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.
Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells. The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all. I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.
Here again cuzz is getting angry at not having a "legitimate reason" for the votes on him. Also this vote back on Eevee is 100% OMGUS in my book, and the logical conclusion at the end of the tunnel that Cuzz has been running down. The last time I saw tunnelly Cuzz, it was in Buffy mafia where I was telling Cuzz/yuma to stop tunnelling the bejeezus out of eachother. End story there was Cuzz was scum and yuma was town (yeah Cuzz was SK, but SK is scum in my book; same survivalist, lynch-anybody-but-my-team goals as mafia). So this makes me very suspicious of Cuzz.
These last two posts represent my least favorite part of mafia. That's the notion that defensiveness and voting for someone who voted you are both inherently scum behavior. You take issue with me "picking apart Eevee's case" on me. Well guess what? I thought it was a pretty damn awful case that he entirely failed to back up with evidence and I wanted to poke at it to determine if the lack of justification for his vote on me was scummy or lazy.
The issue I had here was how zealously you were picking it apart. People are allowed to be defensive, naturally. But it is true that mafia has extra incentive to be defensive; so I called you out when it felt like you were going over what was necessary.
About the "zealous defense" you mention, you're trying to paint it as over the top and out of proportion since I only had two votes on me. Well, I don't care about the votes on me. I'm not even really "defending myself". I'm picking apart what I find to be a bad case that happens to be against me. It doesn't matter how many votes are on me for me to do that.
I don't understand how you can say you are trying to pick apart a bad case, and at the same time say you aren't defending yourself. That IS defending yourself. I'm painting it as over the top, because it felt over the top.
With respect to your "tunneling Cuzz is scum Cuzz" remark, again I want to make clear what I had been doing in all the quotes you give. I'm not saying "hey all, Eevee is definitely scum, let's lynch him right now." That constitutes tunneling in my mind. What I had been doing was pressing Eevee himself to back up his case so I can gauge his reaction and not let him get away with making lazy unsubstantiated statements, so I can then decide if I think he's scum or not. So far, I have been unsatisfied with his responses and my vote on him remains.
And from the 2nd quote there, you didn't touch the issue of "those are the wrong reasons for voting for me". That is most important in my mind. I made the quotes smaller so people could actually read things, but if you go back and look at my original case on you (it's quoted in this post, so easy to find) I was pointing out how your statements seem to say "there are reasons to be voting for me, but Eevee is voting for me for NO GOOD reasons". The point being that there are good reasons for voting for you.
Also note: I am catching up, and haven't read past post #545 yet.
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Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.
Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".
A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait. He's quite the bold predicter, usually. So I can see him getting some scum points.
I don't know if it's a town!Munch trait anymore, really. I think newbie Munch was just overly bold, and he's gotten older and wiser.
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Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch.
A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait. He's quite the bold predicter, usually. So I can see him getting some scum points.
I don't know if it's a town!Munch trait anymore, really. I think newbie Munch was just overly bold, and he's gotten older and wiser.
I was about to say something very similar. Munch was devastated near the end of Switch when his bold reads were totally off. He is clever enough to change for the better.
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Hey guys. Sorry that I haven't been as active as I want to be. I'm just having a terrible time at making reads. I dont really want to talk too much about on going games but a lot of my brainpower is still focused on Casino even though I'm dead and I really just want it to be over so I can focus. That said I'm still like a page or so back, I just wanted to start posting.
I got to about Eevee's vote on my and Ashersky's response (601 and 612 respectively) so I thought I should comment on that. I will admit fully to acting differently and Shraeye is right that a lot of my confidence got shattered by Switch. For those of you that followed, CF gaining conf town when he was quite possibly the strongest read I've ever had in forum mafia was very hard for me. Fortunately I got to be scum in Casino so I didn't have to worry about much. But Eevee being worried about me because he reads me wrong is a symptom I share about him. I feel like I read him wrong. I've been comfortable with my vote sitting on him for quite some time and really hopped that something came of it (what I wanted to come of it I'm going to choose not to share at this time... all I'll say is bad theory is bad, oh well) but at best Eevee's been making me feel weird this game. His play just seems different. But I completely understand the sentiment of "this is a player I misread a lot so maybe the opposite of my feeling is correct". I'm going to unvote for now.
But what made me want to post was Ashersky's response cause I really dont think what Eevee was saying was necessarily scummy. Perfectly reasonable self reflection but a nulltell at best. I would say town is just as likely to say that as would scum try to spin a null read into their lynch target, especially one who has been as quiet as myself. I'm actually surprised because Eevee has been someone thats been weirding me out but his vote on me didn't seem like anything special. As I go back though, Robz agrees with Ashersky. I have been very wary to agree with Ashersky... but Robz has been someone who has been making a lot of sense to me this game (which is another thing thats odd cause normally I find myself disagreeing with him a lot, but also come to think of it I think I might have only been scum when I was in a game with Robz; maybe Robz is just doing something different... or is super classy scum ;)) so I'm inclined to actually agree that Eevee's vote might have actually been scummy. I've moved on from thinking that Eevee is the right target for today. Too much has happened. and thats going to be in another post.
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miscellaneous stuff:
Cuzz comes off scummier to me than Eevee. Something about his demeanor seems like he's trying to get a lynch fast, and that doesn't seem like a town mentality.
I am totally not trying to push a lynch fast. I think I've covered this, but I was prodding Eevee for clarifications of his reasoning. I do think his responses and lacks thereof were scummy, but I'm not trying to ram his lynch through asap.
Agreed. I don't think Cuzz was ramming the Eevee lynch through, nor does it seem like he was pushing for any sort of fast lynch.
Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.
I agree with this.
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I want to put in my 2 cents on Cuzz vs Shraeye back in 545 (I know. FOREVER Ago :))
I really dont recall much of the specifics of the Shraeye case when they were actually happening. Cuzz didn't really do anything to rock my boat reads wise. But 545 did. Particularly I feel like Cuzz is overracting to a lot of what Shraeye is saying. Shraeye's case is very "meh" to me. I dont think it necessarily pursuades me that Cuzz is scum. But the way Cuzz responds feels like "this is stupid that I'm getting caught for all the wrong reasons" kind of arguments that I know that I've made before out of frustration (that got me killed in XI). I feel like Cuzz is someone that overracts as scum the way he did in 545 and I am very willing to vote: Cuzz over that post alone.
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about ashersky, mostly just a list of questions for him it seems
Ash did you misspeak in one of these quotes? They contradict each other.
Townier, but not obv!town. Most likely town voting for Eevee is Cuzz.
Edit for clarity: calls Cuzz the Most likely scum on the Eevee wagon.
Actually, no, I don't think I misspoke. Clearly they are opposite. I don't remember why I felt the first way, but I think the second way is correct.
To clarify, I think the tunneling was too much, and came off scummy with the "lies! lies!" stuff. I'd say most likely town voting for Eevee is actually Robz. So maybe I did misspeak? Maybe I meant most likely scum voting for Eevee the first time, too? Who was I responding to the first time?
So I misspoke, yes. Cuzz was most likely scum then and now.
Despite this odd sequence of events, I feel inclined right now to believe ashersky. I could see myself misspeaking like that. Is there any sort of other comments you made regarding Cuzz around the time that you misspoke him as "being town" that can prove you thought he was scum then?
Edit: regarding shraeye and raerae
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.
What do you mean by this? What sort of distancing have you seen between me and raerae?
A sort of subsection about Eevee's Munch vote
On Eevee's Munch vote, you needed to give better reasons than you did. Like, a reason reason. Bad reasons are fine with me, btw, if they are something you noted and believe.
What do you mean by that last sentence?? "Bad reasons are fine with you, if they are something that Eevee noted and believes"?? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. As I see it, the problem is that you think Eevee was not voting Munch for good reasons; this below is Eevee's post of reads in which he voted for Munch, I think I clipped it so just his reasons and vote are in there
Sparky is always a super lurker and always scum. Munch has been more active, but hasn't
given me a town vibe. He rarely does though,
but now that I think back of the games we've played I don't think I've read
him wrong THAT often so this would actually be a lynch I could support.
Running out of battery so going to have to cut this one short. Something about the playstyle of munch/shraeye/raerae always reads suspicious to me.
I notice it again here, I wouldn't oppose a case on any of
them and I can't very accurately explain why. I'll Vote: themunch now, but I'm recognizing this problem and my uneasy feeling about him might mean less than it should.
The reasons of lurking, and playing in a manner that feels suspicious appear to be here (though eevee does acknowledge that munch/shraeye/raerae always seem suspicious to him).
But my question to ashersky, what about Eevee's case in particular makes you jump on him. I feel that this level of reason is on par with people's votes when then argue based on meta-reads. Like the whole set of people saying "something about eevee feels off" (although this could only be Munch/Robz, those are two that I remember). Why attack Eevee's vote on Munch as scummy, but not attack Munch's or Robz's vote on Eevee?
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Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.
Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".
A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait. He's quite the bold predicter, usually. So I can see him getting some scum points.
Dont make me talk about Casino until its over, please.
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But what made me want to post was Ashersky's response cause I really dont think what Eevee was saying was necessarily scummy. Perfectly reasonable self reflection but a nulltell at best. ... As I go back though, Robz agrees with Ashersky. I have been very wary to agree with Ashersky... but Robz has been someone who has been making a lot of sense to me this game...so I'm inclined to actually agree that Eevee's vote might have actually been scummy. I've moved on from thinking that Eevee is the right target for today. Too much has happened. and thats going to be in another post.
I hope that clarification post is coming very soon, because this paragraph is a pile of conflicting ideas. Could you post the ashersky-response that you are talking about, the one that was a "nulltell at best"? I'm not sure which one it was, but I think it was his vote for you?
What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't. Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy. But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?
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What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't. Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy. But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?
Yup.
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What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't. Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy. But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?
Yup.
wat.
I wasn't summarizing what I thought your post was. I was pointing out the conflicting parts.
Is Eevee's vote scummy, or is it a nulltell?
These are different things.
It seems in the end you say Eevee's vote is scummy. then why is he NOT the right target? When I think somebody is scummy, I want to lynch them.
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It seems in the end you say Eevee's vote is scummy. then why is he NOT the right target? When I think somebody is scummy, I want to lynch them.
Order of events in my brain (NB: some of these things occurred while writing the post in question):
1) Read Eevee's vote on me. Went "meh".
2) Read Ashersky's "Everyone thinks this is scummy, right??!!?"
3) I start my response to say "not really"
4) I read Robz post actually agreeing with Ashersky so go "well maybe I could see it, but still would lynch Eevee right now"
Didn't mean to be confusing.
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Edit: still wouldn't lynch Eevee right now
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about ashersky, mostly just a list of questions for him it seems
Despite this odd sequence of events, I feel inclined right now to believe ashersky. I could see myself misspeaking like that. Is there any sort of other comments you made regarding Cuzz around the time that you misspoke him as "being town" that can prove you thought he was scum then?
Maybe? #480 I called him on tunnelling, although in a jokey way. I wouldn't say I "thought he was scum then" so much as thought he was scummy.
What do you mean by this? What sort of distancing have you seen between me and raerae?
I'm thinking mostly of earlier, especially during my spat with raerae, you kept coming down more on clarifying my side than taking her side. People assume you two share opinions, but I don't think that's true. I'm basically arguing against letting the twin claim affect our thinking.
A sort of subsection about Eevee's Munch vote
On Eevee's Munch vote, you needed to give better reasons than you did. Like, a reason reason. Bad reasons are fine with me, btw, if they are something you noted and believe.
What do you mean by that last sentence?? "Bad reasons are fine with you, if they are something that Eevee noted and believes"?? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that. As I see it, the problem is that you think Eevee was not voting Munch for good reasons; this below is Eevee's post of reads in which he voted for Munch, I think I clipped it so just his reasons and vote are in there
Sparky is always a super lurker and always scum. Munch has been more active, but hasn't
given me a town vibe. He rarely does though,
but now that I think back of the games we've played I don't think I've read
him wrong THAT often so this would actually be a lynch I could support.
Running out of battery so going to have to cut this one short. Something about the playstyle of munch/shraeye/raerae always reads suspicious to me.
I notice it again here, I wouldn't oppose a case on any of
them and I can't very accurately explain why. I'll Vote: themunch now, but I'm recognizing this problem and my uneasy feeling about him might mean less than it should.
The reasons of lurking, and playing in a manner that feels suspicious appear to be here (though eevee does acknowledge that munch/shraeye/raerae always seem suspicious to him).
What I mean here is that I didn't feel like Eevee gave "reasons" for the vote. You copied in the information above. The first part is about Sparky, then Munch, and it reads like a null read to me. Then we get a comment about the munshraeray triumverate being "suspicious" and an admission that it can't be explained. Then he votes. That, to me, reads as voting without real reasons.
So when I say "bad reasons" are okay, I meant that if Eevee had real reasons to vote, even if I thought they were bad, I would accept that the voting itself wasn't scummy, since it was based on something Eevee could articulate (right or wrong in my own view).
But my question to ashersky, what about Eevee's case in particular makes you jump on him. I feel that this level of reason is on par with people's votes when then argue based on meta-reads. Like the whole set of people saying "something about eevee feels off" (although this could only be Munch/Robz, those are two that I remember). Why attack Eevee's vote on Munch as scummy, but not attack Munch's or Robz's vote on Eevee?
I think you are misconstruing my comments on Eevee. I didn't "jump on him." I pointed out that the vote was scummy. I didn't vote for Eevee, as I think everyone thinks happened by now. I mentioned that Eevee has read differently, too, but haven't used it to vote. Now, I was on the original wagon, which I already said served its purpose, and have moved on.
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Thanks for the clarifications, ashersky.
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ash's recent posts have read towny to me
See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.
In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.
Lastly Jim I believe you have taken my post about ash out of context as you did with your case on eevee to make your argument seem stronger. This seems intrinsically scummy, as you have done it twice now.
Okay, I'll do my best to answer this. You seems to have a problem with clipping quotes, but I'm going to clip them anyway, since otherwise this will be a very long post, and that's what you do when you're talking about one part of a post, and not the full post. If you want the full context, there's a link to each post on top of the quote.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion.
Seeing as you said this, you need to be held to this standard just as much as anyone else.
I read through everything and dunno, get a slight scum vibe from eevee and liopoil. To explain eevee reminds me of how he played in the last blits game, and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
One token read, one joke (just pointing that out because I'm ignoring it). It's easy enough to say "Eevee's scum because he reminds me of his last game". How does he remind you of his last game? Examples?
Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Why are you inclined to think Eevee's town? Last we heard from you he was scummy.
Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.
Again, what about his analysis post? Point to what he said that you thought was scummy, and why you thought it was scummy.
Went to bed at 11, woke up at 9 to 4 pages!
unvote this is because of two reason, the second being knowingly terrible, 1) ash's recent posts have read towny to me and 2) my scum read on him is from posts pages and pages ago, they have been lost in so many other things I couldn't make a case on him if I was asked to.
How have they seemed towny to you?
As far as TheMunch is concerned, I have pretty much a null read on him, I lean slightly toward scum because when I ctrl/F his name there is a small gap where I assume he was getting caught up, he then posts some reads and information and then another huge gap where he posts nothing.
You think he's scummy because he sleeps? Why do you think these gaps make him scummy?
I do however have a strong scum read on Jim now because of the way he has acted under pressure and because of the case he has made against me. I believe his case against me is poor and flawed, I would like him to answer my previous question or at least explain what he meant. I will quote it in the next post for reference.
How have I acted under pressure? Refer to a post. Why does having what you think is a poor case against you scummy?
(Questions largely rhetorical)
Like I said, I've been getting a weird vibe from you all game, and I think I've figured out why, but I'm not having the easiest time explaining it. I just think that someone in their first game as Town is likely to get to the point where they say "I just don't know! You're ALL scum! But you're all Town!" This can be a very frustrating and confusing game, especially in your first game as Town. But I'm just not getting that "first game as Town" vibe from you. You just seem to me to be chugging along throwing out "reads".
Is this a strong case? I don't know. Obviously mcmc will disagree with it. In general I don't think I have terribly much pull, but mcmc's game has just struck me as a little odd, and hopefully this explains a little clearer why.
Alright, sorry I still suck at quotes so I'm going to answer this from down here.
Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.
Above this point I agree with most of what you have said. I should support my reads more and articulate them in posts. As for the post above specifically I do point out what in eevee's analyis I find scummy, its the bolded part. For the last point you make, you believe that as my first game as town I should reach a point where I have no clue what is going on and should not be able to make reads. Well I like to think I've played enough mafia in general and that I am a quick learner, however what I really think is that I don't believe this would help town at all. Throwing out reads, making cases, and trying to keep up is how I am going to be as helpful as possible. Through this whole case I have not voted for you and I showed my reluctance to vote earlier as well. I think this is how I have have manifested my newbieness.
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For the last point you make, you believe that as my first game as town I should reach a point where I have no clue what is going on and should not be able to make reads.
Jimmmmm has made this point a few times about you. I think it's silly.
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For the last point you make, you believe that as my first game as town I should reach a point where I have no clue what is going on and should not be able to make reads.
Jimmmmm has made this point a few times about you. I think it's silly.
Jimmm's point is not entirely unfounded. My very first game was M-II, where I was scum, and together with Robz, we waltzed our way to a perfect victory. I took MVP and Robz played a strong game himself. In our very next game, M-III, Robz and I both imploded as town D1 because we were both all OVER the place. Going from a position of comfort and knowledge to not knowing who I could trust absolutely KILLED me. Go back and read D1 of M-III and you'll see play that absolutely makes you cringe (granted I went to my grave calling out 2 names - Joth the SK, and Volt, who was Mafia. Robz called out the other two Mafia D1 ;D).
The point though, is that the transition for both Robz and myself sucked. Bad. REAL bad. Of course, to each his own - so mcmc may in fact just be much more comfortable here. But I actually think Jimmm's case has some merit to it here.
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To me, Mcmc isn't giving off any of the slightly obvious scumtells that he gave off in Blitz9 (at the time, I thought they were too obvious to be scummy--I know, I know, obvious play is obvious, I suck). So I actually see him as playing one sort of game his first time around, as scum, and now to me at least his play looks much different.
I mean, I caught him saying all sorts of things like "I don't want to seem like I'm doing X" in Blitz9, which I said (I did say it in that thread) were scumtells. Of course he could simply be improving as scum, or his partners telling him not to say those things (and I guess I sort of told him not to say those things in Blitz9), but in a vacuum at least his play is believably different.
Additionally, he's answering questions, giving reads, posting, etc. No, I think those things would be hard for him to do--perhaps triggering the sort of cluelessness Jimm is talking about--if he were scum, Galzria's points about M-III notwithstanding.
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I've been too busy/tired for mafia most of the day. I'm here now but won't be for long, gonna at least catch up though.
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Alright I'm almost finished, through page 26 anyway.
Where I'm at right now:
Jimmmm's case on mcmc looks compelling.
TheMunch does not look any better to me but his calling out of Cuzz makes me want to look at Cuzz more closely.
Shraeye is talking a lot, not making a huge impression, but his play seems to be in line with his past town play.
Need to examine Theorel's case on Shraeye to see if I agree.
Still town read on Jimmmm.
I'm super tired and off to bed.
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Interesting that a lot of what I say seems quite polarising. Not sure exactly what to make of that.
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I think with mcmc it's not just that he should have no idea what's going on. I think generally as a new Townie you try to get yourself into the game by looking very closely at posts and trying to see what you can make of them. Saying things like "His last few posts have been more Towny" etc does not strike me as someone trying to get into the game, it strikes me as someone trying to make sure they are seen to have an opinion.
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Mcmc, you seem to indicate you have played Mafia elsewhere. How much have you played? Galz, Dsell, do you think if he's played a lot IRL that would make the case less compelling?
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Mcmc, you seem to indicate you have played Mafia elsewhere. How much have you played? Galz, Dsell, do you think if he's played a lot IRL that would make the case less compelling?
I have played many times at college with my brother starting 5 years ago. Since then I have loved the game hosting it at parties of my own through high school and into my college career. Also once my brother told me about the forums and I decided to sign up, while waiting I also set up a Facebook group to begin playing with them online, I have hosted 2 games in that forum, not to mention discussing theory for a long time with my brother this past break as I knew I would be playing with more advanced players then I am use to.
I think with mcmc it's not just that he should have no idea what's going on. I think generally as a new Townie you try to get yourself into the game by looking very closely at posts and trying to see what you can make of them. Saying things like "His last few posts have been more Towny" etc does not strike me as someone trying to get into the game, it strikes me as someone trying to make sure they are seen to have an opinion.
I think with mcmc it's not just that he should have no idea what's going on. I think generally as a new Townie you try to get yourself into the game by looking very closely at posts and trying to see what you can make of them. Saying things like "His last few posts have been more Towny" etc does not strike me as someone trying to get into the game, it strikes me as someone trying to make sure they are seen to have an opinion.
I think with mcmc it's not just that he should have no idea what's going on. I think generally as a new Townie you try to get yourself into the game by looking very closely at posts and trying to see what you can make of them. Saying things like "His last few posts have been more Towny" etc does not strike me as someone trying to get into the game, it strikes me as someone trying to make sure they are seen to have an opinion.
I don't remember who it was who said it but multiple people agreed although your origional case on eevee was poor it "served its purpose". I am not making sure I am seen to have an opinion I am making sure I have an opinion and I express that however poorly it may be at times(although I'm inclined to think I have expressed myself fairly well) as I cannot trust anyone I find it hard to support other people's cases as it could be mafia. So to be most helpfull to town I feel I should express my opinions and try to make cases as best I can and hope that if I'm right, town will support me and if I'm wrong, town will disagree with me.
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"So what do you think about this Mirror Universe threat?" Kira asks Odo over a morning raktajino. "I hate my counterpart as much as anyone - that woman makes my skin crawl. But they're pretty busy with their own war. It seems like they only come over here to steal things."
"Hmmmph," says Odo. "I suppose it doesn't matter what universe a person is from. A criminal is a criminal, and I don't much like the thought of them on my station."
Vote Count 1.11
Eevee (2): Cuzz, Robz888
Cuzz (2): Galzria, TheMunch
raerae (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): Jimmmmm
ashersky (1): Glooble
Jimmmmm (3): Shraeye, raerae, yuma
shraeye (1): theorel
TheMunch (1): Eevee
Not Voting (1): Dsell, mcmcsalot
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
This flavor is just jumping all over the show's timeline. Oh well.
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Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.
Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".
A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait. He's quite the bold predicter, usually. So I can see him getting some scum points.
Dont make me talk about Casino until its over, please.
ITS OVER! YAY! My response to this is: I definitely took advantage of this in the beginning of casino. I did notably go overboard in switch, because frankly I was really confident that I was right a lot of the time. I happened to be wrong BUT I knew you guys recognized that so I faked it. I think I even remember seeing someone (I think Robz in one of the QTs for Casino) expressing some kind of town read on me for exactly this reason. Fun fact, in Casino the person I went overboard on was ehunt, my partner. I wouldn't really put too much weight into whether or not I'm being ridiculous hehe.
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scumScore 30 = neutral feels about right for this game.
Okay, well...I was expecting a rebuttal of some sort from shraeye, either an attack of my case, a rebuttal, or an acknowledgement. But nothing happened. Well, I'm happy with my vote there for now. I could see him missing the case, but enough people have commented on it that he would have to be really uninterested not to have checked it. An unwillingness to address cases against you certainly reads scummy to me, because it says "I don't want to draw attention to this/myself". I'm willing to hear from others that have more experience with shraeye (in particular as scum), but I seem to remember him defending himself in XVII where he was town (to good effect since we lynched cayvie instead). scumScore: 40
Regarding current situations:
I agree that defensive Cuzz can be scummy Cuzz. Certainly a big part of what I found suspicious about him as SK in XVII. However part of that was also his non-participation when not suspected. It's hard to determine if this is the same without some period of people not accusing Cuzz (other than the initial weekend). I think he's a bad lynch until we have the chance to hear more from him. I think town often get accused of being overly defensive when they're being constantly accused (this is why I've generally disagreed with the idea that pressure helps identify scum). scumScore: 32.
Eevee still reads slightly scummy, for previously given reasons. I did not find his Munch-vote particularly scummy because I have definitely felt that way. Other than that, I haven't found anything particularly town. scumScore: 33.
Munch has read townie enough to undo the scumminess of Sparky at this point. I think his comments regarding his changing meta seem genuine to me. scumScore: 30
Jimmmmm: I disagree with his case on mcmcsalot. I think that's one of those: this guy has a different play-style than me therefore I think he has a different win-con. Jimmmmm's being active, driving discussion and picking up a decent amount of heat. He seems likely enough to be town (but he could be playing a strong scum-game) scumScore: 28
mcmcsalot: already covered the "not overwhelmed townie" case. As for his actual contributions, they seem reasonable enough, but I know he won the first game as scum by still seeming genuine. If anything, I'd buy Robz' comments about his lack of scumminess. scumScore: 30.
Anyways those are the major points I've seen recently, everybody else is still about where they were before.
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Regarding current situations:
I agree that defensive Cuzz can be scummy Cuzz. Certainly a big part of what I found suspicious about him as SK in XVII. However part of that was also his non-participation when not suspected. It's hard to determine if this is the same without some period of people not accusing Cuzz (other than the initial weekend). I think he's a bad lynch until we have the chance to hear more from him. I think town often get accused of being overly defensive when they're being constantly accused (this is why I've generally disagreed with the idea that pressure helps identify scum). scumScore: 32.
I have to look back and see if I agree that Cuzz has been defensive, because defensive Cuzz is scum!Cuzz. This has held very true. In M-XII, I don't think he really got too defensive or anything when I repeatedly pressed for him, and he was town. Nor was he defensive at all when I got him mislynched in Blitzwhatever (6 or 7 or something? I was IC, scum Insomniac, shraeye and Munch won). However, he defended himself quite forcefully in M-XVI, and ultimately, we didn't lynch him. Town Vigs had to double-shoot him to get him killed, and he indeed flipped scum.
I'm trying not to rely on metas, but this seems like a more reliable one than most.
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Bwahaha. My co-mods in Noir are telling me to hurry up and lynch someone here so we can go to night.
I hate multiple scum team Mafia. I feel like a have a vast over abundance of town reads because I can't read disingenuous posting from anybody. If I absolutely had to pick someone right now it would be between four players, I think:
mcmcsalot, Jimmm, Shraeye and Cuzz.
Here's the thing. All of them have done things that make me feel "Hey, that's a townie thing to do." - But I need to remember that scum can have genuine reactions and play in this setup as well. Like... I feel as if I need to disregard my town reads in this setup because the things I normally rely on to indicate town play to me are going to be easily and NATURALLY replicated by scum. Does that make sense?
I'm not saying "Hey, let's lynch all my town reads!" Because that's just stupid - but I do think "townie behavior" is a lot more of a null tell. So I think I need to focus less on identifying things that make me feel a player if town, and more on the things that make me feel a player is scum.
And that brings me back to those 4.
Mcmcsalot: I happen to agree with Jimmm here, based solely on my own personal experiences of being a player who's first game was scum, and second was town. I know as well that I'm not alone in struggling to make that particular transition. I recognize mcmc's defense, and I recognize everybody is different. His defense reads townie to me. But this is something that I think would be easy and natural to fake here as well. So my suspicion remains.
Shraeye: I'm interested in hearing his rebuttal to Theorel's case. I'll admit that I've largely had a town read from him - but that in itself is unusual. I don't want this to become a "he's scummy because he's not scummy!", so I'll disregard that line of thought from any consideration. But his posting HAS been less than I'm used to, and his overall presence in the game is certainly much less than I'm used to. This isn't in keeping with either scum!Shraeye nor town!Shraeye meta's, so I think it needs to be noted for just what it is - unusual. And that for me is largely why he's on this list. His play has just felt off. Maybe it's just that he's busy IRL (he's indicated as such elsewhere), so of the four he's probably lowest on my list. Still, I would consider a lynch here.
Jimmm: I know. Lynching the vocal ones is bad. And vocal is town, right? This is the mindset I'm trying to break away from in this setup. I don't WANT to lynch the big talkers specifically, no. But I think it's a lot easier for people to replicate their town posting meta's as scum in this setup. It isn't something that should get undue town points. Yes, Jimmm has taken a lot of positions and made a lot of cases, and yes that's normally a town trait because it shows a genuine desire to scumhunt - but I don't think in this particular setup that makes him any townier. And if I set aside the "He's posting a lot of stuff" and actually look at the content of what he's posting, I'm left with an overall negative vibe.
Cuzz: I still feel that Cuzz opened the game by making a lot of posts about completely irrelevant things. And not like RVS irrelevant. It felt like he wanted to appear to be contributing meaningfully while not saying anything of value. His early vote on Eevee aside, all his posts were about what the opening post said the setup contained - and they were posted in and around the whole Dsell/Eevee thing. He completely avoided that whole debate while it was happening, even though he had his vote on Eevee from RVS, and was around and posting. It wasn't until much later when I called him out over it that he ever went back and addressed the issue - and that was two days later.
I unvoted Cuzz because I thought his defense read townie to me. I also felt the case that Eevee put together wasn't really much of a case. But as others have pointed out, defensiveness is both a town and scum trait. I'll admit I didn't at all like his OMGUS vote on Eevee. He obviously recognized how weak Eevee's case was, but he got all antsy about the vote. I think that as town he would be much more level headed - maybe voting Eevee eventually if Eevee remains stubborn on a bad case - but not OMGUS voting straight back and claiming he suddenly has good reason to do so. So I'm going to put my Vote: Cuzz back on. Of the four listed, he certainly seems the most "off" if I set aside some of the things that would normally make me lean town.
As for the rest, my biggest town reads are on Eevee and Theorel. Eevee because no matter which way I slice it this isn't a scum!Eevee that I would've ever seen. Could he be scum? Yeah, of course. I just really, really don't think so. Theorel I have a not of a weak spot for reading as town. Everything he posts resonates with me. I may not always share his conclusions, but I always feel like his arguments are made from a town perspective. The only time this wasn't the case, was in the dual-scum M-VI, where I identified him as WW very early D2.
Everyone else kind of falls into the middle. I would be happy to entertain a case on them, but nothing has stood out. Robz and I have had almost polar opposite reads all game, but I'm not sure if I should take from that "Robz is
scum", or "Robz and I really read things differently". Right now I'm leaning towards the latter. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
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@Galz, while it seems to me that we've been reading this really differently, too, if your top 4 are Mcmc, Jimm, shraeye, and Cuzz... we aren't so different after all. I'm unpersuaded on Mcmc, in the middle on shraeye, suspicious of Jimm, and if this defensive thing turns out be accurate, also suspicious of Cuzz.
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The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
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The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
Ridiculous. The cases you were pushing on him were preposterous. I mean honestly? I've no clue who my character is right this minute. If you asked I would have to check my PM. Shraeye has indicated similar and it's exactly what Eevee said. Yet somehow it's suspicious Eevee doesn't know? Please. I read my PM throughly enough to know what little power my role had, and that I was town. Then I closed it - at the moment Dsell had asked I couldn't have told you "Station-Aligned" without actually checking because it was am irrelevant point to me when I first got my PM.
And at a meta level, what scum game is Eevee mimicking? Honestly, point me the way and I'll go read. This isn't any scum!Eevee I've ever seen, and I've seen scum!Eevee a handful of times. They've all contained similar traits which I've laid out already - traits that this Eevee simply doesn't have.
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The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
Ridiculous. The cases you were pushing on him were preposterous. I mean honestly? I've no clue who my character is right this minute. If you asked I would have to check my PM. Shraeye has indicated similar and it's exactly what Eevee said. Yet somehow it's suspicious Eevee doesn't know? Please. I read my PM throughly enough to know what little power my role had, and that I was town. Then I closed it - at the moment Dsell had asked I couldn't have told you "Station-Aligned" without actually checking because it was am irrelevant point to me when I first got my PM.
And at a meta level, what scum game is Eevee mimicking? Honestly, point me the way and I'll go read. This isn't any scum!Eevee I've ever seen, and I've seen scum!Eevee a handful of times. They've all contained similar traits which I've laid out already - traits that this Eevee simply doesn't have.
I still say the case against Eevee was neither ridiculous nor preposterous, although I agree the original pieces of evidence are no longer compelling, and I'm not driving for that lynch very firmly, though I'm not sold on anyone else yet. But look, Eevee is perfectly aware of his town!meta, and while copying your town!meta is easier said than done... I know Insomniac can do it, for instance, and I bet Eevee can, too. And he hasn't felt like town!Eevee to me here the whole game, he seems like he abruptly started acting like town!Eevee at the point at which he was in trouble. And I really dislike when people make the "I don't even know my role PM, that's how much of a disinterested, harmless townie I am!" argument. It always rings false to me. It could be true, but looking up your own PM takes 5 seconds and is so easy to do, there's never actually a situation where it matters that you can't recite your PM off the top of your head. So pointing out that you don't know it always seems like one of those pretty lousy pieces of acquitting evidence than scum would think is really smart to say.
And I don't like when you act like you know everything better than everyone else. Alas, I think you're town when you do that, but you probably think that too, so I'm not going to WIFOM you over your meta. Don't be so overconfident in your language if you're town, man.
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@Robz RE Defensive Cuzz is scum!cuz: Read this. Its cuzz in 545.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
I like this question a whole lot.
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Oh, I figured out the scum-read on shraeye.
He's voting Jimmmmm without a case.
I'm pretty sure I was, maybe the case wasn't articulated well.
I made a long post regarding Eevee-related things, and Jimmm featured in that post, as he had been attacking Eevee. Robz featured as well, as he had stated reasons to be suspicious ofboth Eevee/Jimmmm, and I felt like his Eevee-reasons were meta-related, and his Jimmmm-reasons were fact-based. So I was disappointed to see he voted Eevee, because I agreed with his Jimmm statements, which I'll quote here.
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
At the end of that Eevee-related post I also put down my own reasons for voting Jimmmm.
It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.
Robz, this is exactly how I read that too. Between teh Eevee/Jimmm interaction, they both may have felt a little weird, but Jimmmm felt inherently scummy. His original position seemed forced, the way he decreased suspicion bit-by-bit seemed staged, and now he "won't vote eevee". ALL of his opinions regarding eevee seem completely manufactured. I can't tell right now if that makes eevee more likely Jimmmm's partner, or town that Jimmm's trying to get credit from, but I'm very certain it makes Jimmmm scum. I think he's a much better lynch than Eevee.
Vote: Jimmmmm
He's posted basically 3 things about Jimmmmm (he's posted some of them multiple times):
1. The Eevee contradiction problem. Shraeye seems to believe "If you don't clip the statement, there is no contradiction."
This doesn't affect my scumread on Jimmm at all; it just looks like a clumsily-made case, and any alignment can do that.
2. Jimmmmm's 180 on Eevee, which Cuzz called out and Robz called out. He agrees that this is more likely to be scum wanting to escape a bad argument than town wanting to escape a bad argument. I felt a need to talk about point 1, because part of that is inherent in thinking that it was a totally contrived argument to begin with.
The 180 here is my main issue, but it doesn't rely on Jimmm's original argument being bad. The entire point is the way that Jimmm backed down from the argument once it didn't seem to gain traction with tons of people (it did with some, but not with others). It happened in stages, and it felt very mechanical. Like "ok, I backed off some, now wait for a few more posts so I can 'reconsder' and turn this into a nullread. Ok, now that it's a nullread, i can transition into a 'won't vote for eevee'. It really felt like all of Jimmm's opinions on Eevee after his original case were completely disingenuous.
This is my stance, and it jives with my earlier statement that Jimmm wasn't trying to trick people with the Eevee-case. I can believe he thought it had merit. But the way he backed down from the case when people disliked it was what was scummy.
Oh, one other relevant comment (IMO) from shraeye:
...it never feels like a good case when people simply say "this person feels different". Now if we talk about HOW they are playing differently, then that's a little more substance.
...
in context he's criticizing Robz for using a meta-argument against Eevee while using a straight-forward argument against Jimmmmm (the 180 thing).
The whole start of shraeye's suspicion of Jimmmmm was "he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person". (see quote above)
I don't throw away meta-arguments categorically. There are certain ones I rely on, but I like to allow a player room to try different methods and to improve themselves. For example Munch is trying to be less 300% confident in his reads, and some people have said that's scummy because it's against townMunch meta. That's ridiculous, because you are encouraging people to continue bad play. The other meta-argument that i dislike is something like "Eevee normally states he's town, and he hasn't yet." This is an action that is easily copied if he's scum, and easily forgotten if he's town. To base a case on this alone is not quality scumhunting. My meta-argument on Jimmm is as follows
But I'm really not sold that Jimmm was trying to trick people. I think he was just a little careless, which is not something I expect of Jimmmm, who's usually a very solid rational person.
I see no reason why someone who is normally rational to stop acting that way, it's not a better way to play mafia in my opinion, and it's not an easy mistake for a normally rational person to start making bad arguments. Like your case on me. I don't think any of these arguments are bad arguments, I just think they're wrong, as I explained. You are a very rational player, in my opinion. If you had resorted to obviously badly contructed arguments or emotional appeals, I'd be suspicious.
Anyways, I'm pretty sure those are the dots my mind connected to conjure a scum-read on shraeye. It could be a natural growth of a scum-read, but it just feels wrong. It feels wrong that shraeye has posted several points of argument against Cuzz, with little against Jimmmmm.
I felt the need to say more about Cuzz, because nobody had presented arguments against Cuzz (except for Eevee's which I also thought were bad). Other people had been making legitimate points against Jimmm, like Robz, so I felt his case needed less fleshing out.
Now, I'm still conflicted between Cuzz and Jimmm, and I think I'll have to reread both of them today to see where my vote is best.
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Can we all stop with the colors? It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.
Also, colors are generally for mods.
Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.
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Can we all stop with the colors? It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.
Also, colors are generally for mods.
Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.
My apologies, I was adopting SFS's style of responding to a case, within the case-quote itself. I think it helps organize things a little bit, though it is visually jarring. I really get upset when people have quotes in quotes in quotes in quotes, and start a huge multi-point debate. The debate itself is fine, I'm just still searching for a way to visually organize the information so it's not painful to read.
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Can we all stop with the colors? It's distracting, and impossible to tell if the colors mean new text inside the quotes or who wrote them.
Also, colors are generally for mods.
Just write outside the quotes, so we know its new info.
My apologies, I was adopting SFS's style of responding to a case, within the case-quote itself. I think it helps organize things a little bit, though it is visually jarring. I really get upset when people have quotes in quotes in quotes in quotes, and start a huge multi-point debate. The debate itself is fine, I'm just still searching for a way to visually organize the information so it's not painful to read.
So the red is new text in that quote? I didn't read it since I wasn't sure.
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Yup, everything in red is my words
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Something which occurred to me, and I don't think it's been discussed yet: is it worth coordinating our cops? Like saying "All cops investigate joth tonight", and if no one responds tomorrow (and we haven't lost a cop), then assume that probably means they all got a Town result on joth? (inb4 joth is the mod)
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Something which occurred to me, and I don't think it's been discussed yet: is it worth coordinating our cops? Like saying "All cops investigate joth tonight", and if no one responds tomorrow (and we haven't lost a cop), then assume that probably means they all got a Town result on joth? (inb4 joth is the mod)
That's an interesting idea, but I don't think it works. In your example, one of the scum teams would just kill Joth.
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Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?
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Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?
I mean, I guess we have a chance that we direct it at scum, and the other faction, if it exists, will kill anyway. Thing is, if we choose town, the scum team(s) can just choose to kill anyone OTHER than the option and imagine they have a better chance of hitting a cop than not.
Plus, cops can be scum, so I don't know if it helps.
Yeah, I think directing cops won't work.
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Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?
No. But it would burn up the investigations, if they actually followed through and copped the person the scum killed. And that would be bad.
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Yeah, I thought of that. Would it be terrible to be able to tell scum who to kill though?
No. But it would burn up the investigations, if they actually followed through and copped the person the scum killed. And that would be bad.
Also this. If you really wanted to direct cop investigations in a good way, you'd choose three and assign one to each cop.
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I have a lot of catching up to do, but I also have a lot of studying to do, so goal for end of tonight is to be fully caught up.
But one thought I had while sitting at my microscope this morning looking at blood cells is this: day 1 cases are rarely very good. In fact the few times we have lynched scum the case themselves have been pretty mediocre and somewhat lacking in content--I mean all day 1 cases are lacking in content to an extent, especially compared to day 2 and 3 cases. What really nailed the lid in the coffin on both Grujah and Lekkit were their reactions. So in my reread there are two things I am going to be looking for:
1. the reactions to cases on people
2. cases that people are building that are trying to make them more significant than they really are or have any right to be, ala ashersky on Frisk in MXV, or me on Cuzz (although it was a bussing case) in MXIV.
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That said, it is time for me to focus in on the people I have trouble reading. Theorel and Yuma are my assignments for tomorrow, because I honestly don't know if I could tell their scum play from their town play at a passing glance.
Tonight however, it's bed time.
Galz did you do this? What did you learn?
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Case that are bigger than they have a right to be: (sorry I don't have post numbers, I mostly did this in Print Screen)
- Robz's case on eevee (throughout the game). his vote started a long time ago (january 4) as was Jimmm's initial case on Eevee. Hmmm.... although i don't get the feeling from Robz's later eevee push.
- I also thought Jimmm's case on mcmc was pushing and trying to hard on the idea of him being "new to being town" and subsequent posts try to bring "evidence" that really doesn't amount to much.
- Cuzz's case on Eevee also appears to be trying to much and placing exaggerated importance. I know this contradicts myself earlier because at that time, just from the back and forth made me read Cuzz as town and Eevee more scummy, but in this new light of thinking I don't like this case as.
- Here I am going to contradict myself again, this time in regard to raerae's case on Jimmm. I initially liked it and voted for Jimmm partially based off it, as well as based off a bit from shraeye--although I had attributed everything to shraeye initially. But now raerae's case appears to me too big for its britches. It has a lot of content and is really trying to make something for itself. Whereas shraeye's case on Cuzz where he votes for him, but then revotes for Jimmm, is more alike to raerae's case on Jimmm. So for now I am going to unvote
- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.
(I actually don't mind Eevee's case on themunch in #601. yes it doesn't have a lot of substance, but I totally get that. It is Day 1 for crying out loud. There isn't much to go off, and certainly even less that is concerete. I don't understand the negative reaction it has produced.)
The weird part about this is that I typically look on these types of cases as pro-town. It is scum hunting right? And scumhunting is good. I don't want to be accused of preventing scumhunting, because I am not. These cases above could be genuine town building cases on those they think to be mafia. But these cases out of the rest appear to me to be more forced and could be the workings of scum. What do other people think? Especially those that were involved in the lynchings of Lekkit in MXVII and Grujah in MXI...
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- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.
Can you explain this please? I think theorel's been saying he's got a slight Town read on me.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.
Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.
Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.
I was phone browsing a different thread, and didn't see your question. I've fallen a page or two behind on this game again, unfortunately.
And I'd be pretty annoyed, mostly because barring any other ongoing games, this is my first town role in a while, and I've been really trying to not lurk and explain my views thoroughly which have been issues for me in the past.
What do you hope to glean from my response to that question?
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Regarding current situations:
I agree that defensive Cuzz can be scummy Cuzz. Certainly a big part of what I found suspicious about him as SK in XVII. However part of that was also his non-participation when not suspected. It's hard to determine if this is the same without some period of people not accusing Cuzz (other than the initial weekend). I think he's a bad lynch until we have the chance to hear more from him. I think town often get accused of being overly defensive when they're being constantly accused (this is why I've generally disagreed with the idea that pressure helps identify scum). scumScore: 32.
I have to look back and see if I agree that Cuzz has been defensive, because defensive Cuzz is scum!Cuzz. This has held very true. In M-XII, I don't think he really got too defensive or anything when I repeatedly pressed for him, and he was town. Nor was he defensive at all when I got him mislynched in Blitzwhatever (6 or 7 or something? I was IC, scum Insomniac, shraeye and Munch won). However, he defended himself quite forcefully in M-XVI, and ultimately, we didn't lynch him. Town Vigs had to double-shoot him to get him killed, and he indeed flipped scum.
I'm trying not to rely on metas, but this seems like a more reliable one than most.
I was emotionally defensive in that game. I tried to guilt and manipulate people into not lynching me based on a "I'm sorry for making you suspect me! I'm town and I don't want to make us lose!" type of plea. I feel like my defensiveness in this game was based on a point-by-point rebuttal of what I thought were inaccurate positions taken against me. And if people think my defensiveness was over the top, it's because I was astounded by just how inaccurate I found some of these positions to be.
I don't necessarily want to get into a huge Cuzz-meta discussion though. I've tried to switch it up every time I've been scum, so I doubt it's helpful for me or anyone else to overanalyze it in this game. I haven't been town in a while either, so comparing to early town games of mine when I was new and sucked (more so I mean) at this game is maybe also misleading.
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And you saying meta arguments about me is a "more reliable one than most" is funny. You used meta arguments about me to help convince Volt I was town in XVI!
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I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!
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Sorry, I'm being obnoxious and unhelpful. I will refute the case, as well as give my thoughts on other viable cases later tonight. But for now it's time to catch up on Top Chef with the gf.
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The following players have received votes:
Cuzz - shareye's case on Cuzz elicited a pretty big response and one that made Cuzz reacted to strongly. I feel that this reaction is town. TheMunch says he overreacted, and I kinda agree, but I read that as town, not scum
themunch/sparky - themunch's reaction to Eevee's vote is interesting because it is meta based. Which I suppose is appropriate because eevee's case is rather meta based. Along with however was a defense of Eevee's vote on him in response to ash. I feel like this could be buddying, but is so obvious that I don't want to think that it is. What was it you say about obvious play Robz?
shraeye - his initial lack of response to theorel's case actually seemed more town to me. scum!shraeye I think would have jumped up and fought, he later did respond in a way that wasn't conventional shraeye, but shraeye seems to be playing a different game, which I am still wary off, but ok with.
Jimmm - Jimm's reaction to mcmc reads scum to me. I know that this isn't exactly the same, but it feels the same way as when Lekkit reacted toward IC-raerae in MXVII. Yes I know that mcmc isn't an IC. But both reacted in somewhat of a hostile way, a defensive, guard up sort of way. I don't understand his emotional appeal about his eevee case. It feels deflective, as if he is trying to move the topic of conversation away from something he doesn't want to discuss. the emotion behind it doesn't make sense to me. Someone said they felt Jimm's vote on mcmc was a deflective vote. I can't remember who said that, whoever said that, what made you think that
mcmc - had an ok reaction to my early vote, and a good reaction to Jimmm
eevee - Only thing I don't like here was eevee saying that he felt like he would have to claim at some point today... actually I don't mind that at all on second thought. Reminds me of me in the early days of MXI.
robz - I think he only had the one vote and don't remember how he reacted, if at all to it.
ashersky - I feel like I am pretty good at reading ash as I have modded two games with him in it, played with him as scum and picked him out as scum day 1 the other game. I can't remember this vote either... but ash has seemed very town to me. I might suggest that he is one of my larger town reads.
raerae - reacted just like I thought raerae would react to it, so good here.
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- I'll add theorel's case on Jimmm to the list. Although it is less so than the rest.
Can you explain this please? I think theorel's been saying he's got a slight Town read on me.
hmmm that should say theorel's case on shraeye I believe. sorry.
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at this juncture the name that pops up on both of my lists and is the most significant is still Jimmm. So I am going to go back to that and vote: Jimmm.
However, if not Jimmm I think we need to look elsewhere. I don't really like our other "options" in Eevee, mcmc or shraeye.
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I am, again, not caught up, but I reiterate that I strongly disagree with a Jimmmmm lynch.
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I am, again, not caught up, but I reiterate that I strongly disagree with a Jimmmmm lynch.
but why do you think this. You have said this before, but the only reason you have provided is this:
I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.
I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.
So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.
You give him credit for being "internally consistent." I don't understand what this means. Yes, he had a case on eevee, and dropped it once he realized it wasn't great. But why doesn't he want to go back to Eevee when other's present cases? If other people have good cases on Eevee, shouldn't he be willing to relook in that direction?
And the second part here is just silly. Everyone seems to agree that you aren't obvtown, but more likely town than not. Does that give you town reads on everyone else.
What do you think of the items I just posted above? Throughout this whole day you have said over and over again, and with the exception of the post above haven't provided any rationalization for it, that Jimmm is town. I could see a slight town read or a null read from what you said above, but a very strong town read?
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I think Cuzz is a reasonable alternative to the Jimmmm lynch, though I still prefer Jimmm right now. I have scheduled a reread of Jimmm, Cuzz and mcmcsalot when I get time.
Dsell, if you are staunchly against Jimmm (and do answer yuma's question above, please), could you tell me what you think about Cuzz?
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Again, I'm not caught up, and have not reread everything. But yuma, your case on Jimmmm is simply not compelling to me. I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read. I have made the mistake of comparing people's styles between games too many times, it just does not seem like an effective way of scumhunting to me. I think using general metas and playstyles often works, but it seems that there are too many factors going into any given situation to draw reads by comparing two specific cases. Also, I found his reaction to his case to be quite genuine, it didn't feel manufactured to me at all. I also thought his reaction to others' new cases seemed real.
I dunno, it's easy to point to this and that as things that give you a scum read, but it's harder to quantify town reads. I have one on Jimmm, it is based on the things I pointed out in that post as well as a few other things.
What makes you think I have town reads on everyone else? I have a town read on Jimmmm. That was literally all that post was about. I don't have a town read on you, for example.
It's fine for people to develop their own reads, that's the name of the game, right? But I am so surprised that SO many people are getting scumreads on Jimmm, and from my perspective it is hard to believe that everyone on this wagon or that's expressed interest in this wagon is town.
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I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read.
Do you mean mcmc?
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I read Cuzz's response and at this time I really wouldn't be all too surprised if Cuzz was SK.
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I am not sure what to think of his interactions with Munch, but even if his reaction is similar, that is not strong enough reason for me to drop my town read.
Do you mean mcmc?
Yuuup.
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The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
Trying to find a suitable emoticon.
:) will have to do.
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The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
Ridiculous. The cases you were pushing on him were preposterous. I mean honestly? I've no clue who my character is right this minute. If you asked I would have to check my PM. Shraeye has indicated similar and it's exactly what Eevee said. Yet somehow it's suspicious Eevee doesn't know? Please. I read my PM throughly enough to know what little power my role had, and that I was town. Then I closed it - at the moment Dsell had asked I couldn't have told you "Station-Aligned" without actually checking because it was am irrelevant point to me when I first got my PM.
And at a meta level, what scum game is Eevee mimicking? Honestly, point me the way and I'll go read. This isn't any scum!Eevee I've ever seen, and I've seen scum!Eevee a handful of times. They've all contained similar traits which I've laid out already - traits that this Eevee simply doesn't have.
I still say the case against Eevee was neither ridiculous nor preposterous, although I agree the original pieces of evidence are no longer compelling, and I'm not driving for that lynch very firmly, though I'm not sold on anyone else yet. But look, Eevee is perfectly aware of his town!meta, and while copying your town!meta is easier said than done... I know Insomniac can do it, for instance, and I bet Eevee can, too. And he hasn't felt like town!Eevee to me here the whole game, he seems like he abruptly started acting like town!Eevee at the point at which he was in trouble. And I really dislike when people make the "I don't even know my role PM, that's how much of a disinterested, harmless townie I am!" argument. It always rings false to me. It could be true, but looking up your own PM takes 5 seconds and is so easy to do, there's never actually a situation where it matters that you can't recite your PM off the top of your head. So pointing out that you don't know it always seems like one of those pretty lousy pieces of acquitting evidence than scum would think is really smart to say.
And I don't like when you act like you know everything better than everyone else. Alas, I think you're town when you do that, but you probably think that too, so I'm not going to WIFOM you over your meta. Don't be so overconfident in your language if you're town, man.
MY FLAVOUR NAME HAS LITERALLY ZERO BEARING IN THE GAME. I KNOW 100% WHAT MY ROLE DOES, IT'S NOT ANTITOWN OF ME AT ALL TO NOT REMEMBER A RANDOM NAME I WAS ASSIGNED FROM A TV SERIES I'VE NEVER SEEN A SINGLE EPISODE/MINUTE OF.
Ok, this is probably helping scum with too much info, but this continous argument from Robz just annoys me too much. I HAVE READ MY ROLE PM FULLY LIKE FIVE TIMES. I STILL DONT REMEMBER MY FLAVOUR NAME BECAUSE ITS FUQQEN COMPLICATED AND I KNOW NOTHING NADA ZERO NOLLA OF DS9 FLAVOUR. SERIOUSLY ITS JUST A RANDOM WORD/WORDS TO ME IN A LANGUAGE THAT ISNT NATIVE TO ME, WHY WOULD I REMEMBER IT!? seriously, some random letters that didnt remind me of anything, that's all my flavour name is to me. I've read my pm PLENTY of times and still probably couldn't identify my flavour name even if someone posted all the alternatives! I'm absolutely baffled you think me not remembering a random 2-30 letter combination is scummy. Seriously, I don't even know if Captain Kirk is from this particular sci-fi or from some other one, I honestly know NOTHING of this. Like, I know Harry Potter isn't from this, but that's about it. why would i lie about this fact?
/drunken rant and YES I would be crafty enough to fake being drunk if I was scum.
A sidenote, I sort of don't know where my meta of being awfully nice to everyone comes from. I think I'm super gullible, but I don't think the niceness-image exists anywhere but on these forums. I absolutely love being thought of like a very nice person though, so I don't mind. But I'm sort of worried this post will make you all to think of me as a less of a pleasant fellow. I really do do do do try to be nice to everyone, I really do! And the pleasant response such behavior has warranted in here makes me try even harder, so thank you all for making me a better person in life. /finalendofrant
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Eevee, nevermind the remembering PM thing. But this is important: Are you part of the town?
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Totally gut based reads I'm getting from reading the new posts and thinking about the game: Robz seems like scumrobz. Yuma looks very towny to me (as usual).
(I guess i can try to describe the reasons for these feelings: yuma's 688 just reads very towny me, i dont think people usually admit to being contradictory as scum if no one calls them out, because being contradictory reads scummy to people and that's what not what scum wants town to think about. scumread that's 100% new for me comes from other people (such as yuma) describing Robz's positions, makes it seem awfully lot like he decided to think something and is now fake-stubborn on it despite the lack of proper evidence. Like, he could be able to read me better. I'm not saying he should be, but Galzria is which supports this statement. Generally, without reading back I get this feeling he has decided some positions from early on and has been super consistent on them. Which reads scummy to me because it seems like he has decided he thinks something and is now just looking for ways to justify that. Townies are usually more hedgy/unsure, especially smart one's like Robz definitely is.
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Oh post post PPE, yes I'm station aligned Robzie! Drunk AMA, go for it please. I really want to solve this game!
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
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Totally gut based reads I'm getting from reading the new posts and thinking about the game: Robz seems like scumrobz. Yuma looks very towny to me (as usual).
(I guess i can try to describe the reasons for these feelings: yuma's 688 just reads very towny me, i dont think people usually admit to being contradictory as scum if no one calls them out, because being contradictory reads scummy to people and that's what not what scum wants town to think about. scumread that's 100% new for me comes from other people (such as yuma) describing Robz's positions, makes it seem awfully lot like he decided to think something and is now fake-stubborn on it despite the lack of proper evidence. Like, he could be able to read me better. I'm not saying he should be, but Galzria is which supports this statement. Generally, without reading back I get this feeling he has decided some positions from early on and has been super consistent on them. Which reads scummy to me because it seems like he has decided he thinks something and is now just looking for ways to justify that. Townies are usually more hedgy/unsure, especially smart one's like Robz definitely is.
I did unvote you and switch to Cuzz, and I no longer think you're the scummiest person. I also reversed myself on Jimm after calling him one of my top town reads. I've been consistent on, let's see, ashersky I guess? And theorel. So I think you're off here saying that I am "super" consistent.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
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@galz & theorel, you both pointed out (around post 665, I think) that shraeye hadn't commented on theorel's case against him. I'm interested in your take on Jimmmmm's avoidance of my case on him and (correct me if I'm wrong) shraeye's case on him. Is it normal for Jimmmmm (or anybody for that matter) to avoid discussing cases against him/them? Overall question: Why call one person out for not responding to a case but not call somebody else out?
How close to accurate is our most recent vote count (post 663)? I know yuma has unvoted but I can't remember anybody else's votes and unvotes and don't trust myself enough to keep it straight on the reread. Working up the courage and energy to do another reread but would like to see that first.
And, just a little frustration here, I am SUPER bummed this thread is already a million pages long. I am missing out on soooooooo many hilarious comebacks. Fairly certain my head is going to explode.
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Sorry for spamming with multiple posts, this is sort of a bad habit of mine. Still catching up and posting my thoughts as I get further.
Yuma's #696: I think I had sufficient reasons for asking if I should claim. Yes, this is me saying my role is such that claiming it early works reasonably well. However, not PINL, I would totally lie here if I though it was for the best of town.
However, I got to clarify I thought our soft deadline was like two days before the actual one rather than the full week it actually was. So no, I would not have suggested me claiming if I wasn't being stupid. I thought our days were more valuable than they actually were.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
Well, his emotional defense in Eeveemafia (YES calling it that, sue me) was terrible in my opinion. Like, I really LOVE to read into those kind of things and it wasn't compelling to me at ALL. So, just based on accurately pinning his emotion-based scumdefense in that game as what it was, I feel I'm ok enough at reading him to think he is town here. I'm not as certain as I was about yuma in switch, maybe ~as certain as I was about you in the day 1 of mafia X. But yeah, don't support the Cuzz-lynch despite agreeing that the evidence sort of leads there - my gut just tells me he is town and I think in this case my gut is worth listening to. But, my reasons for listening to / not listening to my gut are AWFULLY results oriented, I do realize that.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.
I absolutely 100% called for Cuzz's lynch after his "emotional extortion" in Eeveemafia. You really can not say "his emotional defenses are worth nothing" just because you read him horribly wrong in that game, because even though you and Volt did, I didn't fall for that in there and I don't think I'm falling for it in here. Cuzz, feel free to quote this and laugh at me at the end of the game if you are scum. I'm not super confident about this (as I explained earlier), but confident enough I oppose his lynch today. I think he's different here, and I think my gutread on him sort of has some weightnot just because my gut is generally my strongest suit, but also because I have a record of reading Cuzz correctly (and yes I realize my sample size is laughable). Your reasons for dismissing my gut read are simply false - I've never misread his emotional defenses before. On the contrary, I've actually been right about him the one time I remember him using the emotional defense and my posts calling for his lynch and my subsequent vigging of him should be a proof of this.
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I just read back just to be sure about my meta read on Cuzz, and I'd like to clarify my position there. I do not think he is scummy, I think he is slightly towny. Not even close to the level of Dsell, but still easily towny enough for me to oppose his lynch today. This appeal to emotion felt sincere to me and his self meta arguments were the type I wouldn't expect scum to make, and again I did see scum-Cuzz's AtE for what it was in Eeveemafia so I'm inclined to trust my gut here maybe more than I should.
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.
When have you seen town Cuzz go down without a fight? Honestly I'm not sure what example you're referring to there. Maaaaaaaybe XI but I got from L-2 to hammered whilst sleeping there, and you better believe I would not have rolled over had it been at a more reasonable hour.
And I appreciate the not wanting to be fooled aspect. But if you push my lynch here, then all you'll have accomplished is having been wrong not to vote me in XVI, and wrong to vote me here.
But again, you did not actually answer my question, nor the one from #691.
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on phone hold on cuzz
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Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.
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When have you seen town Cuzz go down without a fight? Honestly I'm not sure what example you're referring to there. Maaaaaaaybe XI but I got from L-2 to hammered whilst sleeping there, and you better believe I would not have rolled over had it been at a more reasonable hour.
In a blitz game, I think it was blitz 7; but I can't remember. Me/Munch/Insom were scum there. Robz was IC.
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Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.
You still lean scum to me from our interactions a while ago. But I'm not certain of course. You clearly read me better than Robz did in XVI (kudos) and I appreciate you defending me now, but unfortunately for you that tells me next to nothing about your own alignment.
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.
Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.
I was phone browsing a different thread, and didn't see your question. I've fallen a page or two behind on this game again, unfortunately.
And I'd be pretty annoyed, mostly because barring any other ongoing games, this is my first town role in a while, and I've been really trying to not lurk and explain my views thoroughly which have been issues for me in the past.
What do you hope to glean from my response to that question?
That's a straight role fish by Robz. Cuzz has publicly complained about dying early as a town PR in the past. I think Robz was testing to see if Cuzz would give away anything about how he feels about him role.
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Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.
You still lean scum to me from our interactions a while ago. But I'm not certain of course. You clearly read me better than Robz did in XVI (kudos) and I appreciate you defending me now, but unfortunately for you that tells me next to nothing about your own alignment.
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
Good point on Glooble. Time to start LALL voting?
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I'm absolutely fine lynching Glooble at this point, despite the fact his rare contributions have read towny to me.
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If you think he's Towny, why are you absolutely fine with lynching him?
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If you think he's Towny, why are you absolutely fine with lynching him?
I didn't say he was towny, I said his rare contributions have read towny to me.
Saying one or two things that make sense to me just isn't enough if that's literally all you ever say.
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I'm absolutely fine lynching Glooble at this point, despite the fact his rare contributions have read towny to me.
Who is your vote on right now anyway?
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I'm absolutely fine lynching Glooble at this point, despite the fact his rare contributions have read towny to me.
Who is your vote on right now anyway?
Munch. I'm on so much I can easily switch if need be though.
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If you think he's Towny, why are you absolutely fine with lynching him?
I didn't say he was towny, I said his rare contributions have read towny to me.
Saying one or two things that make sense to me just isn't enough if that's literally all you ever say.
I suppose there's a difference. I'll have a read of him when I have time.
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Is there anyone who feels comforable reading glooble? If so, some insight would be just great. Is 'he wouldnt safe to lurk like this as scum' applicable here?
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Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
You have to understand, Cuzz. We've seen you as scum a LOT recently. M-XIV, M-XVI, and M-XVII, in fact. It's just really hard to ignore meta arguments for you when you have three recent scum games. And you really, really emotionally extorted us into not lynching you in M-XVI. Which was fine--well done!--but it can't be ignored now. It just can't. I've seen town!Cuzz go down without much of a fight, and I've seen scum!Cuzz say whatever it takes to live. ANd the whole not wanting to be fooled again thing enters into it.
When have you seen town Cuzz go down without a fight? Honestly I'm not sure what example you're referring to there. Maaaaaaaybe XI but I got from L-2 to hammered whilst sleeping there, and you better believe I would not have rolled over had it been at a more reasonable hour.
And I appreciate the not wanting to be fooled aspect. But if you push my lynch here, then all you'll have accomplished is having been wrong not to vote me in XVI, and wrong to vote me here.
But again, you did not actually answer my question, nor the one from #691.
That blitz game, seven maybe? I was IC. You were my lynch choice, and you DID go down without a fight. No, I don't think there is as much of a case on you aside from meta considerations. Yes, I know, I said I was going less off metas.
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Cuzz, how angry would you be if we lynched you? Serious question.
Cuzz was online an hour ago but did not answer my question.
Vote: Cuzz. I want my question answered.
I was phone browsing a different thread, and didn't see your question. I've fallen a page or two behind on this game again, unfortunately.
And I'd be pretty annoyed, mostly because barring any other ongoing games, this is my first town role in a while, and I've been really trying to not lurk and explain my views thoroughly which have been issues for me in the past.
What do you hope to glean from my response to that question?
That's a straight role fish by Robz. Cuzz has publicly complained about dying early as a town PR in the past. I think Robz was testing to see if Cuzz would give away anything about how he feels about him role.
Absolutely not. Ashersky, you remember how he behaved in blitz7 when I got him lynched? He was resigned to it. I wanted to see what length he would go to here to not get lynched, knowing what I know about him. Not a role fish.
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Is there anyone who feels comforable reading glooble? If so, some insight would be just great. Is 'he wouldnt safe to lurk like this as scum' applicable here?
He has lurked as scum. He has lurked as town. I didn't like his vote on ashersky earlier, and some of his pronouncement about being away. Not the worst choice.
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Is there anyone who feels comforable reading glooble? If so, some insight would be just great. Is 'he wouldnt safe to lurk like this as scum' applicable here?
He has lurked as scum. He has lurked as town. I didn't like his vote on ashersky earlier, and some of his pronouncement about being away. Not the worst choice.
Vote: Glooble
Lets get this going and see where it takes us.
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Is there anyone who feels comforable reading glooble? If so, some insight would be just great. Is 'he wouldnt safe to lurk like this as scum' applicable here?
This could absolutely be scumGlooble.
But from what I remember, townGlooble is similar. Still, from what I've seen, this is line for line from Glooble's scum playbook. The problem is that there's just so little information, it is remarkably hard to get much of a read.
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That's a straight role fish by Robz. Cuzz has publicly complained about dying early as a town PR in the past. I think Robz was testing to see if Cuzz would give away anything about how he feels about him role.
As someone who said they liked Robz question, I didn't actually think it was a Role fish. I thought it was a "Let see how worried Cuzz is about dying" and is the reason why I said I wouldn't be surprised if hes SK. But that might not have been Robz intention for his question.
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As someone who said they liked Robz question, I didn't actually think it was a Role fish. I thought it was a "Let see how worried Cuzz is about dying" and is the reason why I said I wouldn't be surprised if hes SK. But that might not have been Robz intention for his question.
I don't understand. Why include the last sentence, when Robz says above that his intent matches the first two sentences above?
I wanted to see what length he would go to here to not get lynched, knowing what I know about him. Not a role fish.
It sounds like Munch is saying. "I think you are wrong and that Robz wasn't rolefishing...but I suppose if you're going to suspect Robz, then I'll help feed that thought."
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As someone who said they liked Robz question, I didn't actually think it was a Role fish. I thought it was a "Let see how worried Cuzz is about dying" and is the reason why I said I wouldn't be surprised if hes SK. But that might not have been Robz intention for his question.
I don't understand. Why include the last sentence, when Robz says above that his intent matches the first two sentences above?
I wanted to see what length he would go to here to not get lynched, knowing what I know about him. Not a role fish.
Nope, just tired and missed/didn't read that post. No biggie.
It sounds like Munch is saying. "I think you are wrong and that Robz wasn't rolefishing...but I suppose if you're going to suspect Robz, then I'll help feed that thought."
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Nope, just tired and missed/didn't read that post. No biggie.
Ugh.
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@galz & theorel, you both pointed out (around post 665, I think) that shraeye hadn't commented on theorel's case against him. I'm interested in your take on Jimmmmm's avoidance of my case on him and (correct me if I'm wrong) shraeye's case on him. Is it normal for Jimmmmm (or anybody for that matter) to avoid discussing cases against him/them? Overall question: Why call one person out for not responding to a case but not call somebody else out?
How close to accurate is our most recent vote count (post 663)? I know yuma has unvoted but I can't remember anybody else's votes and unvotes and don't trust myself enough to keep it straight on the reread. Working up the courage and energy to do another reread but would like to see that first.
And, just a little frustration here, I am SUPER bummed this thread is already a million pages long. I am missing out on soooooooo many hilarious comebacks. Fairly certain my head is going to explode.
I'm sure a big part of that is that I was looking for shraeye's response to my case and not looking for Jimmmmm's response to yours.
Looking back though, there are some differences:
1. Your vote was second on Jimmmmm. You also noted how shraeye had already made your case. This makes it much more likely (to me) that Jimmmmm would sort of pass over it.
2. He did respond to shraeye's comment regarding the unwillingness to vote Galzria today. (this is his first post after your case). Meaning he was not avoiding responding to suspicions
3. Your case was immediately followed by 2 dissenters (DSell and munch). Whereas my case was followed by (well nothing, but eventually) "case is okay", "I could get behind it", "Need to review".
Jimmmmm did comment on the "opinions are divided" which reads to me as an acknowledgement of the cases against him in aggregate. I don't find it suspicious that he didn't acknowledge your case in specific since he'd picked up 3 votes by the time he even posted in thread. To me it felt like shraeye said, "not worth my time, don't want to look defensive/draw attention to it".
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Vote: Glooble
Seems like a decent enough day 1 lynch.
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Anyways, shraeye responded to my accusation, my initial reaction was: "that's why I said it wasn't a case. It's not a case, it's 1 point (the 180 on Eevee)." But reading it more carefully I see that the case is really seeing a series of interactions with Eevee that feel manufactured. Okay, it still feels like an inflated case to me. I see no good reason he's not voting for Cuzz at this juncture.
(Inflating the case) He cites Robz' reasons for suspicion. Robz' reasons were (in total) "His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me." Citing them as "Robz' reasons" strikes me as an attempt to inflate the case. Then later he restates "all of Robz' reasons" as his own, since nothing makes a case stronger than using the same reason twice.
This post:
Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
This is the tipping point? This post taken ENTIRELY OUT OF CONTEXT is the tipping point for his vote? But Jimmmmm refuted it. I was going to refute it, but I just noted that Jimmmmm already had in my "case on shraeye" post. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg171797#msg171797 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg171797#msg171797))
(This was another point that shraeye never acknowledged that contributed to the feeling more secure in my vote here post.)
Basically it feels like shraeye's trying to build a case on Cuzz (brings him up every chance he has), while voting Jimmmmm to make sure we don't forget that Jimmmmm's suspicious too.
Re: Glooble. There's certainly worse lynches we could go with. I'm personally not in a hurry. We've had 2 soft deadlines suggested (one for next Wednesday one for tomorrow). I'm inclined to still lean towards next Wednesday, I think longer day1's have a better chance to catch scum...but I know that I reach a point where I feel like we've milked all we can out of the day (I felt this heavily towards the end of day1 in MIV) and others may reach that point before me.
Here's an unofficial votecount:
Eevee (1): Cuzz
Cuzz (3): Galzria, TheMunch, Robz888
mcmcsalot (1): Jimmmmm
ashersky (1): Glooble
Jimmmmm (3): Shraeye, raerae, yuma
shraeye (1): theorel
Glooble (2): Eevee, ashersky
Not Voting (2): Dsell, mcmcsalot
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Oh, one last thing. (it ended up kind of long) The situation with Eevee remembering his character name. I think Robz and those defending Eevee are talking past each other. Whether it's reasonable to not remember your character name is irrelevant. Well, it's not completely irrelevant to what Robz is saying, but I think he's coming at it from the opposite side regardless.
The point is that it wasn't a contributing factor to you stating "I'm town". You cited it as a tangential reason to say "look how I didn't really read my role PM that carefully". But memory of your flavor name doesn't matter for how carefully you read the PM. Memory of "station" doesn't really either. If you are town you probably read DSell's post and said "oh yeah, we're not called town in this game, I'll have to check my role PM to see what we're called". For example, if you had said the following I would have bought it at once:
" Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't (don't) really pay attention to the flavor, just the relevant points."
But that's not what you said, you said (paraphrased) "I didn't remember the exact wording. I didn't read it that carefully. In fact I don't even remember my flavor name"
The way it's stated, it's like you're trying to lend credibility by stating additional reasons that didn't really exist at the time. Your failure to remember your flavor name doesn't in any way effect your claim of town. Your inability to instantly call to mind the exact wording of your role PM doesn't effect your claim of town. Reading uncarefully could have played a role in it (in particular you might have claimed station if you knew it, as it fits the joke well enough).
Now Robz pushed the point farther than I did, saying he found the reasons made-up. I don't think they were made-up, I think they were unrelated. It's a defense added after the fact to try to make it feel like you had better reasons than you actually did. Now the question to me is: did you do this because the real reason is that you didn't even know town was called station so you were throwing out any defense you could think of, or did you do this because you were in justification-mode, and when justifying actions we (people) tend to offer tangential reasoning. It's not an open-and-shut case, it's not a super-compelling reason to vote you (that's why I didn't at that time), BUT it's not nothing, and it really doesn't have to do with if you could remember your flavor name. It has to do with whether your ability to remember your flavor name was even relevant to your claiming "I'm town".
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I thought me not remembering my flavour name was relevant in that if you believe it to be true, it explains why I didnt remember we are stadion aligned before checking? Like, I just used it as an anecdote to portray how I just checked the color of my alignment (green, good, I'm town), read the flavour, chuckled even though it seemed very random, read further to see what my role did, sent a confirmation reply and moved elsewhere on the internet while starting to think how this particular role should be played.
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now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
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I didn't mean to imply that you had town reads on everyone. What I meant to imply was that one of the reasons you had a town read on Jimmm is because he had a read on you that nearly everyone shares. So if that is one of your reasons, do you give the rest of town the same credit for it?
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I believe there are a few outstanding questions for me. I'll be on much of the day, and I'll be around much of the weekend. I don't have the energy (it's barely 6:00am and I haven't had coffee or breakfast yet) to do a full readback and get to everything right this minute - but I'll be engaged here for much of the next three days. Next week, as with this week, will be very busy for me again, and I'll be going back to only dealing with this thread late at night after I get home (I found out this week that it's too much to for me to try and keep up with in "real-time" - as in, I can't constantly be following it).
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I'm home so I have a little time to give some more in-depth answers before I go to bed.
@galz & theorel, you both pointed out (around post 665, I think) that shraeye hadn't commented on theorel's case against him. I'm interested in your take on Jimmmmm's avoidance of my case on him and (correct me if I'm wrong) shraeye's case on him. Is it normal for Jimmmmm (or anybody for that matter) to avoid discussing cases against him/them? Overall question: Why call one person out for not responding to a case but not call somebody else out?
How close to accurate is our most recent vote count (post 663)? I know yuma has unvoted but I can't remember anybody else's votes and unvotes and don't trust myself enough to keep it straight on the reread. Working up the courage and energy to do another reread but would like to see that first.
And, just a little frustration here, I am SUPER bummed this thread is already a million pages long. I am missing out on soooooooo many hilarious comebacks. Fairly certain my head is going to explode.
I wasn't too concerned about your case, it just seemed like you were looking for reasons to join a wagon. But I'm happy to go over it point by point.
Holy biscuits, Erma! Reread and was super disappointed to find that shraeye had presented a case on Jimmmmm while I was reading as Jimmmmm was the person I was reading. So, sorry guys, shraeyerae has struck again.
On reread there were a few things that struck me wrong about Jimmmmm. The first came at post #77 when I felt he was a bit snappier than necessary at Lio. The second came at his response to me (#95), he seemed genuine (or buddyish) when he said that did read snappier than he intended but then he says this:
Yeah that reads a lot snappier than I meant. I was actually really surprised to see you telling me to settle, until I re-read my post, and you have a point. I just don't think you should vote for me in order to force me to claim. Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
Something about the bold says "Stop drawing attention to this! Shhhhh! Stop!!" And that just seems like he maybe caught himself saying something he shouldn't have, realized it, and is trying to make it go away.
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make. It's not scummy to not want to talk about the details of your role on day 1. You're pointing a mistake you thought I thought I made, but I don't think whether or not I said more than I should have has any bearing on my alignment.
Next, we have post 97 where he agrees with me in questioning ash for voting for eevee without real cause. Maybe it's just because I'm not used to you people agreeing with me but it felt sort of sheepy, trying to start a wagon.
If I recall correctly, ash said very little about Eevee and then plonked his vote on him. Here is what I said in response:
Yeah ash, you haven't really contributed anything other than cop/doctor-related theory and some reads without reason. Why do you find Eevee scummy? More importantly (since your answer to the first question will likely be similar to what has already been said), why do you find theorel scummy?
Does that really seem like I'm trying to start a wagon? Just questioning the reasons behind reads and a vote, as I should have.
Then we have post 114 where he redirects the little argument ash and I were having regarding my scumminess to his case on eevee. At first I read this as townie because, let's be honest, ash and I weren't helping anybody but scum with that sidetrack but after theory pointed out that scum would want to end the day quickly I began to rethink that, maybe it was just solid scum-redirection. Still not sold on that particular point but definitely don't see it as pure town anymore.
You had it right the first time:
I think Jimmmmm was super excited because he thought he found scum. He tried to shut down the little bicker-match ashersky and I were having to direct people back to his argument. I believe scum would have just let that roll out, waste time, and distract people instead of redirecting.
Your argument with ash looked like this to me: ash offended raerae so of course raerae shot back at ash and ash thought raerae silly for shooting back and it continued. Looked a lot more like a personality clash than actual scum-hunting.
Post 162 is another example of him trying to shut down discussion but this time in regards to his "don't lynch me before I claim!" comment. I just don't like that he's trying to shut down conversation because that is the only way for us to form opinions and analyze people.
There are better ways to analyze people than to try to figure out their roles on day 1.
Post 268 he wants to stop talking about the eevee case, again.
Post 273 says he voted for eevee to see how he'd respond to the pressure but it seems to me like Jimmmmm voted for eevee because of the case he had formed on him. Seems like he's trying to make it seem like it wasn't as big of a deal as he originally made it out to be.
This is what I said when I voted for Eevee:
I'm going out now, so I'm going to Vote: Eevee to watch how he tries to get himself out of it.
This is before the contradiction case. Please understand, #85 was not a case. It was something I noticed, and wanted to see what people thought about it. While I was away, I thought about it and developed the actual case, which I presented in #138. The fact that I developed it in my head while I was away from a computer contributed to me misunderstanding the intent behind one of the statements. The case was conceived before I voted, sure, but it was born and died in between me voting and unvoting.
Post 364 states that Cuzz and Galz seem to be the biggest targets today. I was super confused when I read that because I didn't remember either being heavy on anybody's radar. I went back a little bit and saw that yes, Cuzz did have two votes on him at that point but Galz didn't have a single one and people seemed to generally think he seemed townie. Just went back and skimmed one more time before posting this and still don't see anybody pointing serious fingers at Galz as of this (#364) post.
Yep, this is a mistake I've made before. Saying "X, Y and Z are the main suspects" because they are the suspicions I'd just been reading about. I tend to try to narrow things down to make them more approachable in my head, and it got me mislynched in a certain game involving monsters from your pockets.
#367, 368, & 370 are him saying he'll vote for Cuzz for not participating but will give Galz a pass. Totally agree with shraeye here. It's strange wording at best.
Which part is strange wording? The part where I say I'll vote for Cuzz to generate the contribution that he promised, or the part where I say that if Galz is Town then we want him around?
#378 & 405 - shutting down conversation regarding eevee lynch, again (anybody sensing a pattern yet?)
Meh, like I said I was demoralised and wanted to talk about someone other than Eevee. It was an overreaction, sure, but it was an emotional response. If you don't believe me, that's fine, but there's nothing more I can say about it.
#415 & 514 - Presents a flimsy case/read on momsalon that basically boils down to him being too new to read people as town or scum based on what they post. I don't agree with this and I don't like it. I suppose it isn't necessarily scummy by itself but coupled with everything above it feels like he's trying to draw suspicion around momsalon for no real reason.
Well disagreeing with my case is fine, but if you don't think it's scummy in itself then no response necessary.
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Re-read Glooble as promised. There's really not much there. Does anyone have any thoughts other than LALL and "This could be scum Glooble (but it could also be Town Glooble)"? The one thing that stood out to me was this:
I'm endeavoring not to post completely contentlessly. If I have an observation I think is helpful to the town. If I don't, then I'm just making noise. In other words, if possible I'd like to actually help fond scum, but barring that ill settle for not making a lot of distracting noise.
I think if he's Town, then this is going about things the wrong way. Instead of "I don't have many good thoughts, so I'll help Town by staying quiet," it should be "I'm going to come up with as many good, helpful thoughts as I can and post those."
On the other hand, if he's scum, this seems like it could be a way to excuse his lurking.
For now, I'm happy to Vote: Glooble to try to get some helpful thoughts out of him.
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I thought me not remembering my flavour name was relevant in that if you believe it to be true, it explains why I didnt remember we are stadion aligned before checking? Like, I just used it as an anecdote to portray how I just checked the color of my alignment (green, good, I'm town), read the flavour, chuckled even though it seemed very random, read further to see what my role did, sent a confirmation reply and moved elsewhere on the internet while starting to think how this particular role should be played.
Maybe I was unclear, or maybe language barrier, or something. It's irrelevant to the scumminess whether it is conceivable that you might forget your flavor name. I said it was tangential to your defense, because it's an anecdote about your role PM, which is related to your alignment, but not directly. To better clarify, I'm going to reword your defense into what I heard when I read it. Note: This is not what you said, it is what I heard when I read your post. I think it will do better to communicate what I meant.
Your defense as heard by me:
"Yeah, I didn't say station. That's because I was making the classic I'm town joke. Besides I didn't realize when I wrote the post that we were called station, because I didn't really pay attention to my role PM. No really, I'm not making that up, I payed so little attention to my role PM that I don't even know my name."
It's that (added) "No really, I'm not making that up" that I heard when you added the extra bit about your flavor name. Like, no one would believe you didn't read closely enough to notice station, so you needed to add an anecdotal argument to show it was true. I think it also points out the ambiguity in it: maybe you added that last bit because you were justifying yourself (and when justifying ourselves we assume people won't believe us), and maybe it's because you were in fact making it up (and when we make things up we assume people won't believe us).
Anyways, this was just a random post with some minorly scummy connotations (in the form of defensiveness). There were other more important things about my early scum-read on you, but this one just kept coming back up, so I wanted to try to clarify since it seemed like you (and others) didn't understand the argument since you/they kept bringing up "but really, I did forget my flavor name! It is possible!".
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wont have time for a vote count until tonight. If SFS, Volt, or eHalc wants to step in I'd be obliged.
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So, Glooble's at 4 votes? Is there anyone who is opposed to the Glooble lynch? (I'm not opposed, I weakly support it...no vote yet.)
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So, Glooble's at 4 votes? Is there anyone who is opposed to the Glooble lynch? (I'm not opposed, I weakly support it...no vote yet.)
I can't see any good reason to oppose such a lynch, other than "Glooble always lurks." But it's anti-town anyway. There's a reason LaLL is a thing. The only post of his that's stood out to me was his accusing me of trying to lynch Eevee as quickly as possible which was pretty unfair. Even shraeye defended me against that.
Vote: Glooble
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Starting to catch up now. I do not oppose a Glooble lynch, but he's not one of the four that I mentioned previously as ideal. I don't find him particularly scummy - but that's largely because I don't find him particularly anything. Often the result of someone with so few posts. Still, I would hope that we could do better than LALL - although I cannot deny it's success (and would-be successes) in the past.
I do recognize that some form of compromise must eventually be made - as there are too many "I won't lynch X today!" - "Well I won't lynch Y today!" - "Well you're both wrong, and I won't lynch Z today!" issues going on (and I'll fully admit my personal belief that Eevee is town is one of those). So while I'm rereading, I'll make a point of looking Glooble over, and seeing if he's a lynch that I feel comfortable actively supporting, rather than just "not opposing".
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Warning: I won't be around very much this weekend.
Glooble, huh? I guess I can't really defend him; he's the closest thing we have to an LaLL policy lynch. I mean, on one hand I want to say, "This is just how Glooble is, lurking isn't a tell for him." But actually, I've found the few posts he has provided to be pretty scummy. I'm not sure the case against him is the most compelling, but it's not bad.
What's our deadline, though?
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Trying to do better than LaLL is sort of what led to D1 in casino game. I don't mean there was an obvious lurker lynch there, but from my perspective it seemed like town was dying to find airtight cases and be stubborn about who they would refuse to vote for or refuse to give up a case on. By the end of the day everyone had a wagon on them, reads were muddled, town mislynched shraeye at town!Robz's insistence after like 60 pages and behavior was hard to analyze on D2.
I guess my point is that LaLL is at least as good as any other reasoning D1. At least once there's been some degree of healthy discussion as there has been here.
Does anyone else have the feeling that town does better when they kinda just get D1 over with kinda quickly even if they mislynch?
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Trying to do better than LaLL is sort of what led to D1 in casino game. I don't mean there was an obvious lurker lynch there, but from my perspective it seemed like town was dying to find airtight cases and be stubborn about who they would refuse to vote for or refuse to give up a case on. By the end of the day everyone had a wagon on them, reads were muddled, town mislynched shraeye at town!Robz's insistence after like 60 pages and behavior was hard to analyze on D2.
I guess my point is that LaLL is at least as good as any other reasoning D1. At least once there's been some degree of healthy discussion as there has been here.
Does anyone else have the feeling that town does better when they kinda just get D1 over with kinda quickly even if they mislynch?
I definitely agree--and I made this point constantly Day 1 of M-XVI--that an overly long Day 1, with a glut of wagons, is actually really bad, because it becomes impossible to analyze. If like everyone came under the spotlight at one point or another, and everyone voted for practically everyone, it's really hard to look back and see the patterns that lead to catching scum.
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Lynching scum D1 is more or less the exception. Not that we shouldn't try!
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Also, it makes sense, lurking that hard is very anti town, scum or not mislynching someone who has been helpfull in making cases and throwing out ideas would be much worse.
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
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No scum was ever lynched on Day 1 until Mafia XI. (Actually, it also happened in Blitz2, but that was more or less luck; I was scum, insisted on random voting, the random process landed on my scumpartner, and I bussed him hard. We lost.) We've gotten better at it lately... scum was lynched Day 1 in M-XV and M-XVII. (It happens all the time in ashersky's Blitz games, but those are sort of a different beast.)
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
I was actually aware of that Cuzz, thank you. I wanted to see what mcmcsalot said. It's why I didn't vote for him in the original question.
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
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ninja'd
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but with far less
shoutingstyle
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noted
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PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
It helps if you address a question directly to the suspect, instead of just putting down a vote. I don't ninja-answer other people's questions, but i will jump to somebody's defense if I feel they are wrongly accused.
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Glooble, huh? I guess I can't really defend him; he's the closest thing we have to an LaLL policy lynch.
I will reread Glooble, because i remember very little. But right now I'm opposed to lynching Glooble, when we have lynches that I think are very good. Jimmmm and Cuzz are both good lynches in my opinion. I don't understand why the Jimmm lynch isn't getting any traction as I still haven't seen a defense that makes me satisfied.
Vote: Cuzz
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PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
It helps if you address a question directly to the suspect, instead of just putting down a vote. I don't ninja-answer other people's questions, but i will jump to somebody's defense if I feel they are wrongly accused.
To be fair, Galz did address mcmc directly.
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To be fair, Galz did address mcmc directly.
Aha, I missed that as I focused on Robz, due to his particularly loud complaint regarding defenses.
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PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
It helps if you address a question directly to the suspect, instead of just putting down a vote. I don't ninja-answer other people's questions, but i will jump to somebody's defense if I feel they are wrongly accused.
To be fair, Galz did address mcmc directly.
Shit, I probably should have let Galz make that defense himself....
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PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
It helps if you address a question directly to the suspect, instead of just putting down a vote. I don't ninja-answer other people's questions, but i will jump to somebody's defense if I feel they are wrongly accused.
To be fair, Galz did address mcmc directly.
Shit, I probably should have let Galz make that defense himself....
+1
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
Why?
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
Why?
FWIW, I haven't been on Eevee for awhile now, so this is weirdly timed.
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PLEASE IN THE FUTURE LET THE PLAYER HIMSELF MAKE THIS DEFENSE (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY A LOGICAL DEFENSE, BUT I WANTED TO SEE IF HE WOULD THINK OF IT OR FLOUNDER) BEFORE YOU PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUTH AND PROVIDE HIM WITH AN ANSWER.
It helps if you address a question directly to the suspect, instead of just putting down a vote. I don't ninja-answer other people's questions, but i will jump to somebody's defense if I feel they are wrongly accused.
Fair enough.
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
Why?
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
Why?
FWIW, I haven't been on Eevee for awhile now, so this is weirdly timed.
I noticed something. Call it a town slip. If anyone else would notice it, it's you. That's the why on both.
As for timing, I feel like you just asked Galz why he has the town read a page or so ago. So it isn't like it's out of the blue.
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I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Hopefully an explanation can still be helpful, I meant that aside from lack of posting glooble has done nothing that I find scummy, in the one other game I have played this alone would not have been enough to lynch someone, or at least I wouldn't have been okay with it as town. Many people seemed to agree that a lynch on glooble based on lurking is legitimate. While this was surprising at first, cuzz's post at 760 made sense to me as well as other comments from my "elders". I don't know it's going to be a mislynch but statistically it's more likely.
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
Why?
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
Why?
FWIW, I haven't been on Eevee for awhile now, so this is weirdly timed.
I noticed something. Call it a town slip. If anyone else would notice it, it's you. That's the why on both.
As for timing, I feel like you just asked Galz why he has the town read a page or so ago. So it isn't like it's out of the blue.
It was actually 5 pages ago, but that's fine. I didn't notice Eevee's town slip... and I really, really rolled my eyes when he said "I think Glooble has said towny things but am okay with lynching him" (which is scummy no matter how he spins it, I'm sorry, it just is)... but it looks like there's very little impetus to lynch Eevee, so.
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It was actually 5 pages ago, but that's fine. I didn't notice Eevee's town slip... and I really, really rolled my eyes when he said "I think Glooble has said towny things but am okay with lynching him" (which is scummy no matter how he spins it, I'm sorry, it just is)... but it looks like there's very little impetus to lynch Eevee, so.
Generally speaking, I do think defending Glooble will be scummy. At least by veterans who know the importance of LALL now.
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"I don't like it!" Quark screams in Odo's office. "Word has gotten around that the station isn't safe! People are staying in their quarters! They're not going out. They're not drinking. They're not gambling."
"I'm very sorry to hear that," Odo says wryly. "Do you have a crime to report?"
"A crime? It's a crime that my profit margins are so low! And I want to know what you're going to do about it."
"I'm going to make a note in my crime-solving notebook," Odo replies, "and I'm going to ask you to leave."
Vote Count 1.12
Eevee (1): Cuzz
Cuzz (3): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye
ashersky (1): Glooble
Jimmmmm (1): raerae
shraeye (1): theorel
Glooble(5): ashersky, Eevee, yuma, Jimmmmm, Cuzz {L-3}
mcmcsalot(1): Robz888
Not Voting (2): Dsell, mcmcsalot
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
People not enrolled in this game will please refrain from posting in the thread.
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Well, this is awkward. I was thinking all day at work that when I got home I was going to replace out of this game because I just didn't have the mental energy to attend to it, and I come home and find a huge lynch wagon on myself. The worst part is, I can't even fault you guys - if I wasn't me I'd be completely supporting my lynch. I haven't been participating at all.
I think there are better options out there, is all I can say.
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Well, this is awkward. I was thinking all day at work that when I got home I was going to replace out of this game because I just didn't have the mental energy to attend to it, and I come home and find a huge lynch wagon on myself. The worst part is, I can't even fault you guys - if I wasn't me I'd be completely supporting my lynch. I haven't been participating at all.
I think there are better options out there, is all I can say.
Why, though? You were more active than this in IV and VI, which I believe had similar numbers of players and were not, in general, significantly less crazy than this game.
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When I left forum mafia, it was basically because I felt as a person who works a job where I don't have access to a computer, it was very hard for me to keep pace with all of you. I thought obtaining a smartphone would help with this, since I could keep up on my commute and maybe post on my lunchbreak, but the fact is, I just have to many commitments in my life to post here every day. This week especially I've had a lot going on.
This isn't to try and make excuses. This game is a commitment and I shouldn't have signed up for it without better evaluating my ability to commit to it. But here we are now, and I have no defense for how much I've been lurking, and I can't fault you for lynching me, but I am town, and I so have a role that could potentially be very useful, so for the sake of the town I'd just as soon not get lynched.
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When I left forum mafia, it was basically because I felt as a person who works a job where I don't have access to a computer, it was very hard for me to keep pace with all of you. I thought obtaining a smartphone would help with this, since I could keep up on my commute and maybe post on my lunchbreak, but the fact is, I just have to many commitments in my life to post here every day. This week especially I've had a lot going on.
This isn't to try and make excuses. This game is a commitment and I shouldn't have signed up for it without better evaluating my ability to commit to it. But here we are now, and I have no defense for how much I've been lurking, and I can't fault you for lynching me, but I am town, and I so have a role that could potentially be very useful, so for the sake of the town I'd just as soon not get lynched.
This sounds completely genuine to me.
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I guess it makes sense but I feel a little like we just gave up on a few reasonable lynches. True, we were sort of spinning our wheels so I see the value in getting something going but I'm a little disappointed. It seems like easy, no-fault vote that anybody can hop on and in the end we won't learn anything from it. Unless, of course, he flips scum then this post looks shady as hell. I've never been in a LALL scenario though so I guess I'm not the most informed voice here. Nobody (with the exception of Lekkit in Buffy) in all of the two games I've played has been super lurky and even then Lekkit was aggressive AND lurky so it wasn't just him creeping in the corner that made him scummy. Moral of the story: I still like my case on Jimmmmm so I'll keep my vote there.
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
READCEPTION!!
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oh, and unvote
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I guess it makes sense but I feel a little like we just gave up on a few reasonable lynches. True, we were sort of spinning our wheels so I see the value in getting something going but I'm a little disappointed. It seems like easy, no-fault vote that anybody can hop on and in the end we won't learn anything from it. Unless, of course, he flips scum then this post looks shady as hell. I've never been in a LALL scenario though so I guess I'm not the most informed voice here. Nobody (with the exception of Lekkit in Buffy) in all of the two games I've played has been super lurky and even then Lekkit was aggressive AND lurky so it wasn't just him creeping in the corner that made him scummy. Moral of the story: I still like my case on Jimmmmm so I'll keep my vote there.
What's really driving LALL is Mafia-XI (which had 26 players and went on for 3 months). I moderated it, so I could watch the lurking the whole time. There was a 5-person mafia team, and essentially, despite 2 of them switching out and getting replaced, all 5 were consistently like 5 of top 6 lurkers every single day. In fact, the last living scum had to be prodded daily, and simply refused to say anything of importance as the town continued to mislynch more active players over and over and over and over again.
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a lot has happened since I voted for ashersky, and I no longer think him particularly scummy.
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I will reread Glooble, because i remember very little. But right now I'm opposed to lynching Glooble, when we have lynches that I think are very good. Jimmmm and Cuzz are both good lynches in my opinion. I don't understand why the Jimmm lynch isn't getting any traction as I still haven't seen a defense that makes me satisfied.
I agree with this 100%. Now I appreciate the detriment of lurkers but the fact that there are real cases makes me less inclined to lynch the lurker (aka if there were no awesome cases going on then my feelings were different; also yes I am posting this having noticed Glooble has posted, but I haven't read those posts yet and I will respond to those separately).
What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
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Now the question you all will be asking is "WHo do you find scummy? What are your reads?" And I am essentially 7 pages behind, so its going to take me a bit of time to answer that question.
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I am meh about Gloobles emotional response.
Ashersky seems to be really confident lately in addition to the fact that I continue to disagree with him across the board.
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Shraeye, could you reiterate your case on Cuzz, or at least point me in the direction of posts you found scummy from him?
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I find Glooble's reaction genuine.
But it could come from either town or scumGlooble. ScumGlooble is very good, I know.
I'm not sure he's the best lynch, but I am not 100% caught up on reading so....
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When I left forum mafia, it was basically because I felt as a person who works a job where I don't have access to a computer, it was very hard for me to keep pace with all of you. I thought obtaining a smartphone would help with this, since I could keep up on my commute and maybe post on my lunchbreak, but the fact is, I just have to many commitments in my life to post here every day. This week especially I've had a lot going on.
This isn't to try and make excuses. This game is a commitment and I shouldn't have signed up for it without better evaluating my ability to commit to it. But here we are now, and I have no defense for how much I've been lurking, and I can't fault you for lynching me, but I am town, and I so have a role that could potentially be very useful, so for the sake of the town I'd just as soon not get lynched.
This sounds completely genuine to me.
Agreed. Unvote
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unvote for now. LALL votes are generally for calling lurkers out and to see how they react. Glooble was genuine.
If he replaces out, I will give the new player a fresh look. If not, the stuff he's saying so far is towny enough not to lynch.
Back to vote: raerae.
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Shraeye, could you reiterate your case on Cuzz, or at least point me in the direction of posts you found scummy from him?
Here's the original case, there's a lot there, but what I find most important is this clipped part
Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells. The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all. I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.
Cuzz responds, and I don't like the style of his response, he's pushing back REALLY hard against cases on him (and didn't even get to the main point of the "that isn't the right reason to suspect me" scumtell). I recall scumCuzz flipping out in Switch mafia, and compare this to fade-into-the-night cuzz in Blitz 7 where he was mislynched as town.
Hi shraeye. Here's my breakdown of your case against me. I'd also like it if others could read this carefully too. I don't often make massive wall of text posts, and when I do I hate feeling like they're going off into the ether to be ignored by everyone.
Here's my less summarized version of a rebuttal to his defense
New things
There have been 3 things since then that perked up my ears as well
I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!
Jokey helplessness; this is another scum trait in my eyes. Either ignore the case and move on, or give a defense to it. It's not simply 'giving defenses' that is making Cuzz sound overly defensive and scummy, it's the unwarranted intensity of the defense when a simple one might have sufficed.
Town read on Cuzz for his emotional/gut based defenses around #693.
...But it's well established that scum!Cuzz uses emotional defenses to save himself.
I don't think you're really trying or paying attention, Mr. Eevee, if you think that makes Cuzz townish.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
Another "Tell me the good reason to suspect me" tell.
Cuzz, what do you think of me? Towny or scummy? You don't have to repeat your arguments if they have changed, I just think there is a decent chance your position has changed given the recent events and I see you are online now.
You still lean scum to me from our interactions a while ago. But I'm not certain of course. You clearly read me better than Robz did in XVI (kudos) and I appreciate you defending me now, but unfortunately for you that tells me next to nothing about your own alignment.
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
And here when Cuzz starts bringing up lurker Glooble, I see this as deflection. Galz/Munch/Robz were on Cuzz, I was clearly against him, and the general tone of the thread felt anti-Cuzz. Then it got majorly distracted by Glooble issues.
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In other words, it's scummy to talk about myself (defensiveness!), and scummy to talk about other people (deflection!). Got it.
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Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.
At first glance I'm finding your case pretty solid. He does seem extremely defensive.
Jimmm still gives me bad vibes, but I don't want to lynch him. I don't have a solid reason and he's been so active.
Eevee I have no idea about. I think all of the strong arguments for and against him as scum have cancelled each other out, and my own read on him is just bleh. i think the initial reasons he was under fire (the station/town thing, not remembering his role PM) were silly. But the way he defended himself seemed a little scummy.
If I had to lynch someone tonight, I think I would vote for Cuzz. But I'm not totally sold on him either, and we do have some time.
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So now that the lall thing is over? Ill try and reread this whole cuzz deal I had honesty been tunneling on Jimm pretty hard. I feel like I've hit that point, this game has twice as many pages as the last game I was in altogether. I will try to get a good read on a few people cuzz, theorel, robz, shraeye. As I feel I haven't looked at them close enough or they have been a topic of discussion recently. I don't know if I will get to this today or tomorow but ill be able to respond/comment on anything going on tonight.
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Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.
At first glance I'm finding your case pretty solid. He does seem extremely defensive.
Jimmm still gives me bad vibes, but I don't want to lynch him. I don't have a solid reason and he's been so active.
Eevee I have no idea about. I think all of the strong arguments for and against him as scum have cancelled each other out, and my own read on him is just bleh. i think the initial reasons he was under fire (the station/town thing, not remembering his role PM) were silly. But the way he defended himself seemed a little scummy.
If I had to lynch someone tonight, I think I would vote for Cuzz. But I'm not totally sold on him either, and we do have some time.
I think I mentioned it before Cuzz, fwiw.
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I am now completely in agreement with Galz that Eevee is town.
Why?
If Robz continues his push on Eevee, I think his likelihood of being scum goes up.
Why?
FWIW, I haven't been on Eevee for awhile now, so this is weirdly timed.
I noticed something. Call it a town slip. If anyone else would notice it, it's you. That's the why on both.
Why so intent to keep your cards close to your chest? If you have a genuine reason to have a Town read on a Townie who is under pressure, how is it helpful to keep quiet about it?
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Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.
Actually, this deflection is much more serious than I thought. I went back page by page, searching for Glooble's name. The last time it came up while talking about lurking was this post by Robz more than 2 days ago. Cuzz did just bring it up.
We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.
What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.
I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.
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I think I mentioned [LaLL] before Cuzz, fwiw.
Where do you think you mentioned this? I couldn't find an instance of you talking about lynching Glooble because of his lurking before cuzz said that.
Possibly you just mentioned LaLL, but I'm sure Cuzz was the first to talk about Glooble in particular.
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I agree that Glooble's response seems fine.
I do think we've been left hanging on this a bit though: Glooble, are you going to swap out or increase your contributions?
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Sorry I haven't been posting much. I have been following this closely, and it isn't that I don't have time to post. So yeah, I guess I'm lurking XD. It's that I don't feel like I have a lot to add. My reads are very weak and not much has really happened. Once we've had a night maybe there will be more to talk about. Anyway, I'll post my thoughts on glooble in a second.
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I agree Glooble's response seems fine. Although I think he is easily crafty enough to do it as scum. Still, my gut continues to read him as towny whereas my brain says I shouldn't trust my gut in this case. Robz seems to find this a scummy contradiction, which I don't agree with.
I think I was the first one to explain my methods of looking for a target by using the post count / amount of contributions as a way to look at people. I landed on Munch, someone else called for Glooble's head, I found it acceptable and voted 2nd, and a wagon formed.
ashersky, do you have a reason for not revealing my "townslip" to everyone? If you do, it's fine, but doing it for no reason seems unnecessary complicating.
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I pretty much agree with several of you who voted glooble and then unvoted. He has been helpful when he has posted. His defense has seemed honest. Everyone has been under scrutiny has given a good defense in my eyes actually (glooble, eevee, raerae).
Also as I haven't been posting a ton I'm not going to push for LALL....
I'm going to re-read some of cuzz/jimmmmm/mcmc and post about at least one of them now.
Unrelated:
mom salon is mcmc right?
When is the deadline? I asked this already but didn't get an answer. I can't find it anywhere...
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Yeah, mom salon is mcmc. Our deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m. forum time.
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Off to work, so won't be very active for the next while if at all. I'm happy to Unvote.
My task when I have time is to re-read shraeye, Cuzz and ash.
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Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells. The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all. I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.
Cuzz responds, and I don't like the style of his response, he's pushing back REALLY hard against cases on him (and didn't even get to the main point of the "that isn't the right reason to suspect me" scumtell). I recall scumCuzz flipping out in Switch mafia, and compare this to fade-into-the-night cuzz in Blitz 7 where he was mislynched as town.
I also disagree with the case Galz just made when he voted for me, but I'd hate to refute it and seem too defensive!
Jokey helplessness; this is another scum trait in my eyes. Either ignore the case and move on, or give a defense to it. It's not simply 'giving defenses' that is making Cuzz sound overly defensive and scummy, it's the unwarranted intensity of the defense when a simple one might have sufficed.
Robz, can you make the case that I'm scum without using meta-arguments?
Another "Tell me the good reason to suspect me" tell.
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
And here when Cuzz starts bringing up lurker Glooble, I see this as deflection. Galz/Munch/Robz were on Cuzz, I was clearly against him, and the general tone of the thread felt anti-Cuzz. Then it got majorly distracted by Glooble issues.
Note: I cut out parts of shraeye's post.
The deflection thing is what seems the most scummy to me. I can totally see myself doing something like that as scum. :P
Yes, cuzz's defense seems to be a bit more urgent, bold, defiant and well, defensive than others. Not only does this seem a it scummy to me, but just in general doing this differently from other people is probably scummy.
Shraeye has been making good arguments. People who make good points get town reads. So I think shraeye is town. Same with glooble.
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I'm starting to get a scummy vibe from liopoil.
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Ahhh! oh noes!
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I'm starting to get a scummy vibe from liopoil.
You and your vibes and your guts...that is an awkward horror porn in the making.
But, is it just your feelings or because he admitted to actilurking (did I use that correctly??) or something else entirely?
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that is an awkward horror porn in the making.
...
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My brother seemed really sad when I told him I might replace out, so I'm gonna see if I can contribute more. I usually get way more into it on day 2 anyway.
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Trying to do better than LaLL is sort of what led to D1 in casino game. I don't mean there was an obvious lurker lynch there, but from my perspective it seemed like town was dying to find airtight cases and be stubborn about who they would refuse to vote for or refuse to give up a case on. By the end of the day everyone had a wagon on them, reads were muddled, town mislynched shraeye at town!Robz's insistence after like 60 pages and behavior was hard to analyze on D2.
I guess my point is that LaLL is at least as good as any other reasoning D1. At least once there's been some degree of healthy discussion as there has been here.
Does anyone else have the feeling that town does better when they kinda just get D1 over with kinda quickly even if they mislynch?
this is how I feel. I don't know if rushed is the right way to put it... and town doesn't always tend to do well when it has an obvious day1 lynch... MXII for example in pps...
But really to say that voting Glooble isn't enough is kinda silly, because it is something real and provable. Whereas the other cases, while some have more merit than others, are based off interpretation, metas and (day 1 more often than not) misunderstandings. These cases have a role, but they shouldn't be counted higher than other day1 methods.
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What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.
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blah... well I am kinda disappointed in the reaction to glooble's reaction. It was just too easy.... I personally want to hear more from Glooble
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What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.
Question. Did you actually mean "case"? And if yes, what case are you referring to?
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What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.
Question. Did you actually mean "case"? And if yes, what case are you referring to?
Yes I meant case. As in the case on Glooble is that he is lurking and lurking in a somewhat scummy manner. This is contrasted to early cases that I had criticized that I thought were trying to be bigger and more important than they really should have been.
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I honestly feel like a lynch on glooble is something I would be okay with but personally I would like to hear more from him before hand.
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Ok, I am working tomorrow until 3, so if you all decide to lynch me I'd appreciate if you didn't drop the hammer before 4.
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Ok, I am working tomorrow until 3, so if you all decide to lynch me I'd appreciate if you didn't drop the hammer before 4.
I don't think we are in any hurry. Lynch deadline is still aways away. And you only have like 2 or 3 votes at this point I think.
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Just re-read shraeye. Something about the way he's going about his arguments seems a little off to me, but I'm not sure if I think that's scummy. Consider his #520 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg171282#msg171282). He talks about and quotes a lot of things, and ends up voting for me. But he doesn't quote me, other than in reference to Eevee and within a Robz quote, and doesn't seem to be paying terribly much attention to anything that I've said. He's focussing a lot more on the case on me (specifically Robz') than on me. Someone (I think it was yuma) said something about day 1 cases being full of misunderstanings, which made me think when I read this that maybe focussing on the cases without looking at the actual evidence is a great way to perpetuate misunderstandings. And yes, I do think the case on me is based on a misunderstanding. You can look at it broadly and say "Oh Jim changed his mind, gradually no less, must be scum" and leave it at that and potentially that looks like a great case. Or you can actually look at things closely as Dsell and theorel have and say "Well actually I understand where he's coming from. I can understand why he thought it was a good case, and I can understand that he felt deflated when he worked out that it wasn't." But shraeye just summarised it all in his own words, seemingly trying to make it seem as scummy as he could.
Then he starts talking about Cuzz:
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
I dislike both of these statements. I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion. This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him. This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon. That actually makes things more suspicious to me. The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious. So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me. Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.
Now reading this I start to think, "Yeah. Cuzz is pretty scummy, with his 'VERY zealous defense' and 'viciously attacking a case'."
But then I go back and look at what Cuzz actually said in response to Eevee:
Eevee your voting for Cuzz seems strange. You seemed to sheep what I didn't think was that strong an argument by Galz, and later you said you had a noread on Cuzz, and that you buy his reasons for being silent. What about Cuzz makes you think he's scummy?
Ditto
Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
so I'm not sure what changed.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
Vote: Eevee
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Okay. It's meh, voting without explanations is scummy, I wanted to put my vote somewhere because not voting just seems pointless, but I can't voice my tiny suspicions on you very well.
I thought it was wrong to suspect you before you actually had time to post. Now you have had, and you still don't seem towny to me. Might have a scum bias on you though, especially now. But it's fine, even "bad" suspicions are good because they bring out reactions.
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time. But giving Jimmm hard time about his wording about voting me is reasonable, I give you that. Still, nothing you has said has stricken to me as a particularly towny. Again, I just wanted my vote somewhere, and it is maybe unfair of me to put it down on you just because you haven't given me townvibes when there'd be plenty of other, just as deserving people.
Bolded bit is completely untrue.
Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
I totally agree with everything in this post.
Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)
Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.
Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).
My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.
This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.
I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.
With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.
Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.
Again I agree with Robz. I actually think the case on Eevee is growing more solid. And those freaking out about 4 votes need to unbunch their undergarments of choice. I can point to two recent games (one ongoing, that's all I'll say) in which a wagon has gotten to L-2 even sooner than this, and we have the same conversation every time: Anyone who pushes any wagon to or over the brink prematurely D1 will be regarded as scum. L-4 is nothing.
Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
cuzz, I didnt intentionally lie. you've been critical of me, it's easy to get confused when you are town and don't check all the facts super carefully. apologies.
Eevee I want a full response to my post #421:
Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.
I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.
To me, this isn't a vicious attack, or an overly zealous defense, and I agree with a lot of what he says here. He was accused of something (calling Eevee scummy) which wasn't true, and Eevee's vote on him seemed to come from nowhere. Cuzz was questioning Eevee about both of these things, as he rightly should have, and wasn't really getting a good response from him, and concluded that Eevee was scummy based on what was at best strange behaviour.
Then there was this:
Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.
I didn't think this scolding was necessary:
Ok guys, you ready?!?! Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee! There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it. The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.
Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it. In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake. Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason. Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure. Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.
I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.
Stop this nonsense, Munch. I know that you hate this sort of argument as a reason for voting, and I'm appalled that you are using it without qualms here. I think the general way he has been responding to pressure has made him sound towny to me. The bolded sentence that you provide is the reason you should unvote Eevee. You said that this impression has dissipated. Don't rely on stale "feelings" that you can't describe, that is not how *you* scumhunt well.
Here shraeye is making out that Munch is saying "Oh I used to think Eevee was scummy but I'm not sure why, but I'll still vote for him anyway" when in fact he's saying "I don't understand why everyone's dropped off the Eevee wagon."
Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.
I agree with this.
To me this reads like he's just taking the opportunity to remind everyone of this, but again without giving any reasons. He just seems to want to perpetuate the general idea.
Also, the deflection thing:
Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.
Actually, this deflection is much more serious than I thought. I went back page by page, searching for Glooble's name. The last time it came up while talking about lurking was this post by Robz more than 2 days ago. Cuzz did just bring it up.
We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.
What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.
I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.
Again, I actually agree with Cuzz. You've been on his case for ages about how defensive you think he's been, and then he starts talking about something else and suddenly he's scummy for deflecting. How exactly is he supposed to respond? What's the non-scummy way to respond to a case?
Anyway, I think shraeye has quite often been painting things as scummier than they actually are, either by seemingly misunderstanding them, which is strange coming from someone who said, "I see no reason why someone who is normally rational to stop acting that way, it's not a better way to play mafia in my opinion, and it's not an easy mistake for a normally rational person to start making bad arguments.", or by talking about vaguely and spinning things to make it sounds like something very suspicious is afoot.
So I'm certainly not sold on shraeye's scumhunting method, but whether that makes him scum or just someone who's trying too hard to get people to believe his reads, I'm not sure.
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Then there was this:
Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.
Odd that you would say I 'invented a townread'; I resent that you make it out like I'm arbitrarily deciding what I think your reads are, when in a rational world 'will not lynch today' has a very high correlation with 'townread.' Also, since you responded to this, I haven't brought it up, because what you said made sense. However, both you and theorel have brought it up as if I'm still loudly talking about your 'read' on Galz.
Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.
I agree with this.
To me this reads like he's just taking the opportunity to remind everyone of this, but again without giving any reasons. He just seems to want to perpetuate the general idea.
I still stand behind this, and I DO want to take every opportunity to remind people of you. There's a reason I had been voting for you for a while.
Also, the deflection thing:
Again, I actually agree with Cuzz. You've been on his case for ages about how defensive you think he's been, and then he starts talking about something else and suddenly he's scummy for deflecting. How exactly is he supposed to respond? What's the non-scummy way to respond to a case?
The deflection thing is actually quite serious. Cuzz didn't show up with a case on somebody else, nor did he do any scumhunting work. He just said (essentially) "soooo...LaLL is a thing, have we looked at Glooble lately?" This is deflection.
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I didn't think this scolding was necessary:
The scolding of Munch wasn't necessary, but it was fun. I do see that I misinterpreted part of his statement now, but my point still stands. There most definitely was something odd about the reasons for his vote on Eevee (you're missing the context of the RL debates we have on mafia methods), and his unvote shows it too.
But Eevee being worried about me because he reads me wrong is a symptom I share about him. I feel like I read him wrong. I've been comfortable with my vote sitting on him for quite some time and really hopped that something came of it (what I wanted to come of it I'm going to choose not to share at this time... all I'll say is bad theory is bad, oh well) but at best Eevee's been making me feel weird this game.
...
unvote
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Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
liopoil has been too quiet to get a read on. It's scummy behavior, but could be typical newbie scum lurking or typical newbie town lurking (I used to get suspected for this a lot).
Galz is tricky. He often seems like the most pro-town player in the game when he's town, and he's not jumping out at me like that here. Of course he was the last to fill in this game and warned us that he wouldn't be that kind of player here before getting alignment, so this could be Volt in XVI all over again. Still, there's not much to convince me that he's probably town yet.
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Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
liopoil has been too quiet to get a read on. It's scummy behavior, but could be typical newbie scum lurking or typical newbie town lurking (I used to get suspected for this a lot).
Galz is tricky. He often seems like the most pro-town player in the game when he's town, and he's not jumping out at me like that here. Of course he was the last to fill in this game and warned us that he wouldn't be that kind of player here before getting alignment, so this could be Volt in XVI all over again. Still, there's not much to convince me that he's probably town yet.
Stop! Just stop! We are THREE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. Do yourselves all a favor and judge us as so unless you have a real reason to see us together. Robz and mom salon don't get grouped. I don't if there are more twin claims in this game but they aren't being grouped. Stop acting like we're sharing the same brain. So far I'm the only one who has given you reason to think any of us are related and that is solely based on shraeye beating me to the vote on jimmmmmm. You didn't group yuma in with us after he joined the wagon, did you? No. So please, please, stop lumping us in together.
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Chill. That was a joke. I do not think you all share a brain. But it does so happen that I have a townread on none of you, which has nothing to do with any twinclaims.
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So I've gone through and re read the people I mentioned and during this re read, I've actually come to an interesting conclusion.
First off I went through and read the whole cuzz ordeal. I do find cuzz reacted overly defensive and I did find his deflection scummy. The thing is this is only a feeling and an opinion not concrete evidence. I won't cast my vote for him as of now because my only reasons are these. I understand an overly defensive response seems scummy, but I can totally understand flustered town responding the same way. As far as the deflection goes that was veery scummy but think about this. Is anyone talking about Lall as a reason to lynch glooble anymore, everyone dropped it once glooble pointed out cuzz was the first to bring it up. Just because it was a scummy deflection doesn't make the Lall case for glooble any less strong. My read through of cuzz has brought me too the conlcusion that hes scummy but i find nothing concrete enough for a vote, and I still see glooble as a viable lynch, nothing he has posted since his return has been something I wouldn't see scum doing.
Next my read through of Robz. I mainly did this because his outburst at cuzz for responding before I did was a bit jarring. At first I found this to be scummy, if the argument is there for why I'm not scum I don't see how cuzz bringing it up is really that terrible. But then I thought back to ZMIX, this tactic of baiting people into a scumslip is what he did there as well just in a different way. I find this to be town!robz main scumhunting tactic and although I find it a very poor one, it is very town!robz.
After rereading theorel, still nothing jumps out as scummy or towny, very much a null read to me.
Upon rereading shraeye I've found I support him very strongly for his opinion on Jimm. Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that. Also I find it very scummy that Jim says shraeye just summarized the case on jim and tried to make it seem as scummy as possible. This is exactly what Jim has been doing all game and why I have found him scummy in the past. Next I don't agree with Jim's defense at all. Look at the opening post of 832, Jim says shraeye is focusing too much on the case made against him and not on what hes actually said. Then he says we should look at things closer as theorel and dsell have. He follows this by quoting how theorel and dsell "understand" where hes coming from. Where do dsell and theorel look at things closer? Simply because they support you they have a better "understanding" of the whole case? I think shraeye has provided much support for how you have been acting scummy all game and points to other people who have made cases against you as well. This looks like a much closer look into you then simply understanding how you came to the conclusion you did. Jim also seems to attack shraeye for attacking cuzz which I don't find helpfull to town at all. All Jim is doing there is making shraeye look less credible in other arguments to make the argument he makes against Jim less credible. Defend yourself, don't attack the person attacking you. Vote: Jimm
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A note on liopoil. I think the newbie defense is valid for him. It would be neat to have MXXI as reference for him, but that game is two away. This setup, with multiple scum teams, is harder on newbies.
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Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
Don't get too excited, I'm still due for a re-read on you.
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Upon rereading shraeye I've found I support him very strongly for his opinion on Jimm. Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that.
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Defend yourself, don't attack the person attacking you. Vote: Jimm
Firstly, sorry what? I'm getting very mixed messages from this.
Secondly, sorry what? You're saying that it's more important for me to convince everyone that I'm Town than it is for me to try to find the actual scum?
Jim also seems to attack shraeye for attacking cuzz which I don't find helpfull to town at all. All Jim is doing there is making shraeye look less credible in other arguments to make the argument he makes against Jim less credible.
Yeah, that doesn't work at all. Now you're attacking me for attacking shraeye for attacking Cuzz. See the problem? Maybe you're trying to make me look less credible in other arguments to make the argument I make against you less credible.
Looking at posts 520, 832, and 833. First off as far as overly defensive responses I feel Jimm's is just that.
This just seems like you've glossed over the post and thought "Oh well he's saying bad things about shraeye who's voting for him, must be OMGUS." Understand the intent of my post: it was not to give a defense, it was my thoughts from re-reading shreaye. Of course there will be things about me in there since shraeye's voting for me. But it's not a good idea to dismiss a post as overly defensive because it's about someone who's voting for the poster. What about it seems overly defensive? What about something I said came across as scummy to you?
Also I find it very scummy that Jim says shraeye just summarized the case on jim and tried to make it seem as scummy as possible.
Here is shraeye's case on me:
I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him.
Not everything's so black and white Robz. Do you even understand why I said I porbably wouldn't vote for him today.
It looked to me like you said it because you received a ton of blowback, and were trying to gracefully bow out of the whole Eevee wagon ordeal.
Robz, this is exactly how I read that too. Between teh Eevee/Jimmm interaction, they both may have felt a little weird, but Jimmmm felt inherently scummy. His original position seemed forced, the way he decreased suspicion bit-by-bit seemed staged, and now he "won't vote eevee". ALL of his opinions regarding eevee seem completely manufactured. I can't tell right now if that makes eevee more likely Jimmmm's partner, or town that Jimmm's trying to get credit from, but I'm very certain it makes Jimmmm scum. I think he's a much better lynch than Eevee.
Vote: Jimmmmm
He summarises my original position by saying it "seemed forced". No indication as why he thinks that, or acknowledgement of his previous stance that I wasn't trying to trick anyone with it, it just "seems forced". That's it. Then I supposedly "decreased suspicion bit-by-bit". Again, no acknowledgement of the fact that he didn't think I tried to trick anyone, or that if I was just "careless" as he said, then decreasing my suspicion is exactly what I'd do once I realised my mistake. No, it just "seemed staged". And "ALL" of my opinions on Eevee "seem completely manufactured." What does that even mean? That I made up in my head the idea that I thought Eevee contradicted himself? That can't be it, he said himself that I wasn't trying to trick people. What else, then?
This is exactly what Jim has been doing all game and why I have found him scummy in the past.
Show me where I've done this. Show me where I've ignored the actual evidence and just tried to put my own spin on things. If you can, I will go back and look at the evidence.
Next I don't agree with Jim's defense at all. Look at the opening post of 832, Jim says shraeye is focusing too much on the case made against him and not on what hes actually said. Then he says we should look at things closer as theorel and dsell have. He follows this by quoting how theorel and dsell "understand" where hes coming from. Where do dsell and theorel look at things closer? Simply because they support you they have a better "understanding" of the whole case?
Dsell and theorel were off the top of my head. I think with theorel I was talking about #574, and with Dsell I was talking about this:
I just went back and reread Jimmmm (and posts responding to him, etc) with a pretty critical eye due to the claims that people were making about him. And I gotta say, he appears to me to have remained very internally consistent. He thought he had a case on Eevee, he realized it wasn't great, which can be embarrassing and frustrating, especially when you really think you'd caught somebody. So he backed off a fair amount, probably too much when he said he didn't want to lynch Eevee at all. But even still, he's seemed townish and consistent to me when he's backed off from that, realizing that frustration at self is not a good reason not to vote someone.
I was also looking for his opinion on me, to see if his position regarding my towniness changed with the tide of public opinion. It did not. He's maintained pretty much throughout that it gives me definite town points but does not make me obvtown, and that if it weren't for my first post, my lack of contribution could look scummy, even though the contributions themselves were not.
So from all of this, Jimmmmmm actually looks quite town to me. Add to this the fact that I think I've been able to read Jimmmm pretty well in some blitz games and you've got one of my top town reads.
Here Dsell has taken the time to look at what I've said and why, instead of apparently just assuming I'm scum because I did what appeared to be a 180.
I think shraeye has provided much support for how you have been acting scummy all game and points to other people who have made cases against you as well. This looks like a much closer look into you then simply understanding how you came to the conclusion you did.
Maybe I need to re-read shraeye again, because I didn't get that at all. The main crux of his argument on me seems to be "He did a 180." Please point me to any other convincing and well thought-out arguments he has made. I see the other thing he talked about was "the way he backed down from it". Well you can think that's scummy if you want. The reason it was "in stages" is because first I thought it was a good case. Then I realised one of the statements was from a different perspective than the other, but it still seemed to say he would have cleared himself (and it does kind of seem to say that). Then I thought about it some more and started to imagine how these would fit together if Eevee was Town. Then I was like "Oh crap so much for my super case, what now? I really need to move on from Eevee." You can disbelieve me if you want, but that's what happened.
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I like producing O-like statements without giving any reasons so now I'm announcing I have a town read on Jimm.
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
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Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote...
Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.
Odd that you would say I 'invented a townread'; I resent that you make it out like I'm arbitrarily deciding what I think your reads are, when in a rational world 'will not lynch today' has a very high correlation with 'townread.' Also, since you responded to this, I haven't brought it up, because what you said made sense. However, both you and theorel have brought it up as if I'm still loudly talking about your 'read' on Galz.
I felt I should mention, the reason I brought this up was two-fold:
1. You criticized Jimmmmm heavily for taking his post out of context. You doing so is hypocritical, hypocrisy is a scum-tell (IMO, others disagree...)
2. You were still voting Jimmmmm when I brought it up. Therefore you were (in my mind) loudly proclaiming the truth of that post. If you knew it was inaccurate you should have been voting for Cuzz, because "it was the tipping point". i.e. You only voted Jimmmmm over Cuzz because he made posts like the one you pointed out which was in fact completely and obviously misinterpreted, as had already been pointed out.
To me this makes it seem like your explanation there wasn't genuine. You weren't actually voting Jimmmmm over Cuzz because of posts like that. So why were you? (and the most logical reason for faking reasons is that you don't have real ones because you're scum).
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
Well, I agree, but still read them hoping for a read. And I guess producing a long post without seeming scummy is a bit of a townread.
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
Well, I agree, but still read them hoping for a read. And I guess producing a long post without seeming scummy is a bit of a townread.
That logic seems to rule out shraeye and both his reads. Now, right now they seem like the only people with strong, consistent ideas about where the scum is ( at least in the last 3 pages or so) so I don't really see the point in discouraging this fight.
I'm starting to strongly believe there is scum among the three fighting now. I have to leave for church now, but if I have time later today, I'll be trying to figure out who is making the stronger case.
Yuma's unwillingness to do so reads a little bit scummy to me. But it also doesn't move us closer to a lynch, which is not consistent with scum behavior. So it's a toss-up.
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In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but it was I am going to do. Look at the mini-wagons that have formed thus far (because it is something concrete that can't be manipulated, and then go from there)...
So we have had wagons on Eevee (kinda two on him thus far), Jimmm and Glooble and Cuzz
Glooble: ashersky, Eevee, yuma, Jimmmmm, Cuzz
Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Eevee, Robz888
Jimmmmm: Glooble, liopoil, Shraeye, raerae, yuma, mcmc
Eevee: TheMunch, Cuzz, Jimmmm, theorel, Robz888, ashersky
I hope this is accurate. I took vote counts to find miniwagons and then checked for other votes... Note that the above is not necessarily the order in which the votes occurred.
So here we have:
People on 0 mini-wagons: Dsell
People on 1 mini-wagon: Eevee, Raerae, mcmc, theorel, Galzria, liopoil
People on 2 mini-wagons: ashersky, Robz, yuma, shraeye, Cuzz, Jimmmm, TheMunch, Glooble
Hmmm. So this didn't bring about as much as I had hoped and I can't really analyze it much more at the moment. I gotta run, but will be back after noon my time. If anyone else wants to take a stab at it go right ahead.
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
I agree with this completely. It's probably why I haven't posted as much as I should. I could post big fluffy posts but it doesn't seem worth it. Yuma's latest post about mini-wagons seems to be the way to go about it. voting history is real, solid evidence. So is things like what happened a the beginning with the eevee-dsell station-town thing. Nothing like that has happened since. I plan on posting much more today.
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
I agree with this completely. It's probably why I haven't posted as much as I should. I could post big fluffy posts but it doesn't seem worth it. Yuma's latest post about mini-wagons seems to be the way to go about it. voting history is real, solid evidence. So is things like what happened a the beginning with the eevee-dsell station-town thing. Nothing like that has happened since. I plan on posting much more today.
With all this talk of big posts and huge amounts of discussion, all I can think of is casino where we got to 50 pages on the first day and then were never really used that information. Obv I was scum in that game, but I dont think I would have used that info too much as town either. The only real things we actually got were the wagons, which we already have here. I'm down for lynching either Cuzz or Jimm at this point and moving on to the next day.
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Same. Vote:
cuzz or jimmmm? I'll go figure out which one I'd rather lynch.
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Jim there is a significant difference between me picking apart your case on shraeye and you picking apart shraeye's case on cuzz. The difference is me picking apart your case on shraeye was because I believe you to be scum and it is not in response to anything you said to me. You picking apart shraeye's case on cuzz is your defense for shraeye making a case against you. I'm not telling you not to scumhunt I'm saying if you are town you should be able to defend yourself by picking apart the case made against you not by making a case on the person making the case against you.
I didn't just gloss over those posts, they were very long with many quote layers and I couldn't figure out how to quote from them directly, that is the reason for me simply referencing the posts.
Lastly, post 841 is what I expected to see in place of posts 832, this is a solid defense of yourself. Had these two post reversed in order my vote would not be on you right now, but as it is I still find you scummy for what I have said and think you have made a solid defense due to all D1 cases being defensible in some way or another. My issue is this defense has come too late. The way you have pushed cases and defended yourself thus far I find a scummy way to go about things.
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In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but it was I am going to do. Look at the mini-wagons that have formed thus far (because it is something concrete that can't be manipulated, and then go from there)...
So we have had wagons on Eevee (kinda two on him thus far), Jimmm and Glooble and Cuzz
Glooble: ashersky, Eevee, yuma, Jimmmmm, Cuzz
Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Eevee, Robz888
Jimmmmm: Glooble, liopoil, Shraeye, raerae, yuma, mcmc
Eevee: TheMunch, Cuzz, Jimmmm, theorel, Robz888, ashersky
I hope this is accurate. I took vote counts to find miniwagons and then checked for other votes... Note that the above is not necessarily the order in which the votes occurred.
So here we have:
People on 0 mini-wagons: Dsell
People on 1 mini-wagon: Eevee, Raerae, mcmc, theorel, Galzria, liopoil
People on 2 mini-wagons: ashersky, Robz, yuma, shraeye, Cuzz, Jimmmm, TheMunch, Glooble
Hmmm. So this didn't bring about as much as I had hoped and I can't really analyze it much more at the moment. I gotta run, but will be back after noon my time. If anyone else wants to take a stab at it go right ahead.
Your math is a little off - jimmm is the only wagon I've been on. I voted for ashersky for a while, but my case was weak and no one joined it.
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"You know," Keiko O'Brien says to her husband over dinner, "With all this worry about Maquis, the Mirror Universe, and Changelings, it's sort of surprising the captain's not more concerned about crewmen being possessed by Pah-Wraiths."
"Maybe best we don't mention it to him," Miles says. "He's got me working enough overtime as it is."
Vote Count 1.13
Cuzz (3): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye
raerae (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (2): raerae, mcmcsalot
shraeye (1): theorel
Glooble(2): Eevee, yuma
mcmcsalot(1): Robz888
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Glooble, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, liopoil
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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raerae and mcmc are two people.
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guys, let's be honest here. I am not going to read those ridiculously long posts. They are hard enough to read day 2 or 3 or 4 when there is actual context and depth to them. But this early in the game when they are cases based off thin air and fluff and then responses to the fluff with fluff and then responses to those responses with more fluff... There just isn't going to be anything there that is going to interest me. I appreciate the effort (and especially the time that is put into them, I know that it can take a good long while...), but I do not think it is going to get us any closer to finding scum. All it is going to do is make day 1 really hard to read and make getting reads out of it for later days even harder.
Am I the only one that feels this way?
In that case I'm a bit stuck because I'm not sure what else to do. What's the pro-Town thing for us to do now?
I agree with this completely. It's probably why I haven't posted as much as I should. I could post big fluffy posts but it doesn't seem worth it. Yuma's latest post about mini-wagons seems to be the way to go about it. voting history is real, solid evidence. So is things like what happened a the beginning with the eevee-dsell station-town thing. Nothing like that has happened since. I plan on posting much more today.
I thought it would be, but I can't really gleam anything super useful out of it. Part of that is because I don't know if the mini-wagons were formed on scum or on town. Hmmm, there is a question I can ask, because the wagonie (the person being voted by the wagoners) knows their alignment and have more information than I do... as such I would like all of Eevee, Cuzz, Jimmm and Glooble to discuss their individual wagons and tell us who out of the who voted for them are the most likely to be town and the most likely to be scum.
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I thought it would be, but I can't really gleam anything super useful out of it. Part of that is because I don't know if the mini-wagons were formed on scum or on town. Hmmm, there is a question I can ask, because the wagonie (the person being voted by the wagoners) knows their alignment and have more information than I do... as such I would like all of Eevee, Cuzz, Jimmm and Glooble to discuss their individual wagons and tell us who out of the who voted for them are the most likely to be town and the most likely to be scum.
I lean strongly toward Robz being town. The perception of my feelings toward Eevee got blown a bit out of proportion, so I lean toward a scumread on Eevee, but am not certain by any means. Galz seems townish, but isn't blowing me away with townvibes as he sometimes does as town.
shraeye and Munch seem pretty scummy. I especially did not like Munch's "let's just lynch Jimmmmm or Cuzz and get it over with" comment. Jimmmmm and I have 3 and 2 votes on us respectively at the moment. Neither constitutes any kind of consensus (Glooble also still has 2 votes on him fwiw). I agree we don't want to spin our wheels too much, but at least try to make a case that you think someone is scum.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
There is no way I will be voting for Dsell today.
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But Dsell still has a very good town case... while this shouldn't absolve him from suspicion, I think we have better options, such as the four you mentioned. I won't vote for Dsell today either.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
There is no way I will be voting for Dsell today.
But Dsell still has a very good town case... while this shouldn't absolve him from suspicion, I think we have better options, such as the four you mentioned. I won't vote for Dsell today either.
I think it's important to point out that he tossed out a post early in the game, got HUGE towncred for it, then stopped contributing. That negates any towncred he earned for "calling out" Eevee.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
There is no way I will be voting for Dsell today.
But Dsell still has a very good town case... while this shouldn't absolve him from suspicion, I think we have better options, such as the four you mentioned. I won't vote for Dsell today either.
I think it's important to point out that he tossed out a post early in the game, got HUGE towncred for it, then stopped contributing. That negates any towncred he earned for "calling out" Eevee.
It absolutely does not negate the towncred. It's not standard towncred, like "oh he did something pro-town" or "he helped us lynch scum." It's the kind where it's overwhelming likely that he is town for him to have done what he did. Being quiet afterwards in no way negates that.
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Yes, like I said it doesn't make him auto-town, but the thing is it is highly improbable that scum could have written that post. I don't think not-contributing nearly negates this.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
There is no way I will be voting for Dsell today.
But Dsell still has a very good town case... while this shouldn't absolve him from suspicion, I think we have better options, such as the four you mentioned. I won't vote for Dsell today either.
I think it's important to point out that he tossed out a post early in the game, got HUGE towncred for it, then stopped contributing. That negates any towncred he earned for "calling out" Eevee.
It absolutely does not negate the towncred. It's not standard towncred, like "oh he did something pro-town" or "he helped us lynch scum." It's the kind where it's overwhelming likely that he is town for him to have done what he did. Being quiet afterwards in no way negates that.
Look, I am not trying to argue that Dsell is scum. I'm trying to argue that he's not helping the town by being silent. This is the same thing we were saying about Glooble. Now he's back and talking (a little). Dsell got stamped "IC" by most of you and got a free ride all day.
I mean, how many people are complaining about not knowing what direction to go to end D1? How many people have already had bad flashbacks to 50-page D1s with nothing to analyze?
I know what to do the next game I'm scum, though. Do something to get outrageous towncred on the first or second page, then coast to victory.
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Yes, like I said it doesn't make him auto-town, but the thing is it is highly improbable that scum could have written that post. I don't think not-contributing nearly negates this.
I could have done that post as scum. Just saying. So could Robz, Galz, Dsell, Eevee, Insom, liopoil, Cuzz, Archetype, etc. etc. etc.
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Imagine a naive cop who gets a correct response about 85% of the time. He investigates Dsell and gets the result "town" (sorry, "station"). That's roughly how I feel about Dsell right now. Which on D1 makes him the worst possible lynch to me besides myself.
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I think Cuzz is a reasonable alternative to the Jimmmm lynch, though I still prefer Jimmm right now. I have scheduled a reread of Jimmm, Cuzz and mcmcsalot when I get time.
Dsell, if you are staunchly against Jimmm (and do answer yuma's question above, please), could you tell me what you think about Cuzz?
I looked for a more recent comment, but this is the last time shraeye mentioned anything about a reread that I saw. (i.e. he still hasn't done it unless he just failed to mention it after several comments of his need to do so)
Where do dsell and theorel look at things closer? Simply because they support you they have a better "understanding" of the whole case? I think shraeye has provided much support for how you have been acting scummy all game and points to other people who have made cases against you as well. This looks like a much closer look into you then simply understanding how you came to the conclusion you did.
Okay, so after reading mcmcsalot's post I thought, "man that read scummy". But I know I'm on the Jimmmmm-side of the shraeye-Jimmmmm debate. I was concerned that I was picking up a scum-read from it for no reason. Then I reread it today, and this is the thing that I can't resolve. I think this has also been playing into my scum-read of shraeye. I mean he (apparently in all seriousness) has stated "I don't understand why the Jimmm lynch isn't getting any traction." But he stated over-and-over for three days (Jan 8-Jan 10) how he needed to schedule a reread of Jimmmmm. But somehow he is certain that those opinions on Eevee were manufactured? Even though players that have reread him don't agree...even though his case can't pick up traction (usually indicating it's a bad case), he keeps harping on the case. Every case-building post on Cuzz included a "But Jimmmmm is scummier, so I'll vote for him instead".
Now mcmcsalot defends him by saying, "Jimmmmm is scummy for pointing out shraeye's terrible cases". Obviously shraeye, the player that never has time to reread Jimmmmm has read him more in depth than DSell, the player who claimed he reread Jimmmmm with a "critical eye".
So, There are three possibilities I see for this mistake:
1. chainsaw defense. This only works if shraeye/mcmcsalot are a scumteam. Possible, but I'm not convinced...I'm also starting to tunnel shraeye (well at least, I'm starting to recognize that I'm tunneling him, I've preobably been doing it for about a day). This means that chainsaw defense is the scum-tell that I'm detecting, even if not by name. i.e. I think shraeye is scum, when I see someone defend him with bad arguments I'm going to assume they're scum also. But that's only a strong argument if shraeye is scum.
2. mcmcsalot didn't realize that shraeye had frequently stated his need to reread Jimmmmm (and Cuzz btw) which is hilarious given they're the cases he's been pushing for the whole time he's stating the need to reread. But mcmcsalot said he just reread shraeye, so that's actually not possible.
3. mcmcsalot decided first that Jimmmmm was scum, and allowed confirmation bias to talk for him instead of y'know actual facts. Basically mcmcsalot thinks Jimmmm is scum, in order to perpetuate that idea he must dismiss the people defending him as lacking the depth of read, and defend the people accusing him as having the deep read.
Anyways, last time I tunneled someone this hard, it was O, and he was town. So, I have to back off. But that's easier said than done. If I had a reasonable alternative scum-read to redirect attention towards, that would be help. I'm in one of those "how does no one else see shraeye's behavior as scummy?" brain-warping situations. The only thing I can do at this point is drop the case, because no one else thinks his behavior is scummy. I can't help but note here though that shraeye has won EVERY GAME he's ever played as scum. I definitely think you're all being blind to his scum-tactics. BUT I must acknowledge that I've never played with him as scum, and I'm not accusing him based on his scum-tactics, I'm accusing him based on behavior that looks scummy to me, and am using the fact that he's won every game as scum to justify to myself why I might be seeing his behavior as scummy when no one else is. Stupid paranoia...and so I'm going to do what I originally intended to do, even though I feel like his continual pushing of Jimmmmm and Cuzz without rereading is adding fuel to the fire of him being so obviously scummy. unvote. I hate my brain.
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Imagine a naive cop who gets a correct response about 85% of the time. He investigates Dsell and gets the result "town" (sorry, "station"). That's roughly how I feel about Dsell right now. Which on D1 makes him the worst possible lynch to me besides myself.
You realize that deciding to give someone a pass for an entire day due to one post is not helpful?
/inbefore "but he's posted more than once!" -- Yes, but all anyone seems to say about Dsell is how town he is for calling out Eevee on station vs. town. I mean, come on people. Yeah, that was sort of towny. Move on.
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Imagine a naive cop who gets a correct response about 85% of the time. He investigates Dsell and gets the result "town" (sorry, "station"). That's roughly how I feel about Dsell right now. Which on D1 makes him the worst possible lynch to me besides myself.
You realize that deciding to give someone a pass for an entire day due to one post is not helpful?
/inbefore "but he's posted more than once!" -- Yes, but all anyone seems to say about Dsell is how town he is for calling out Eevee on station vs. town. I mean, come on people. Yeah, that was sort of towny. Move on.
Did you completely miss that exchange at the beginning of the day?
I am not saying Dsell is probably town for "calling Eevee out for not saying 'station'"
I am saying this post:
Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
almost certainly comes from someone who noticed that his role pm said "station aligned" and wanted to set a trap for Eevee. The mental gynmastics Dsell would have had to go through to make this post to gain towncred if he were scum would be incredibly impressive to say the least. It seems like you're completely missing this aspect.
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
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I looked for a more recent comment, but this is the last time shraeye mentioned anything about a reread that I saw. (i.e. he still hasn't done it unless he just failed to mention it after several comments of his need to do so)
Nope, haven't had time to reread yet. Working on it now.
I mean he (apparently in all seriousness) has stated "I don't understand why the Jimmm lynch isn't getting any traction." But he stated over-and-over for three days (Jan 8-Jan 10) how he needed to schedule a reread of Jimmmmm. But somehow he is certain that those opinions on Eevee were manufactured?
Jimmm's opinions on Eevee definitely read manufactured to me the first time I saw them. It sounds a bit like you're saying "how can shraeye think these are manufactured opinions if he hasn't read Jimmm". Also, I recall you having issues with me simultaneously agreeing that Jimmm wasn't trying to trick people over Eevee's contradiction, and that his opinions are manufactured. Let me clarify. I'm saying that Jimmm genuinely found a contradiction, and the manufactured part is that he's painting that contradiction as scummy. Then he said later on that it was not as scummy at second look, and then later he dropped it entirely. At least that's the progression I remember. I'm not saying that the contradiction's existence was manufactured, I'm saying that Jimmm's scummy interpretation of it was manufactured.
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I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
Ok, fabulous, you won't vote for Dsell. Who will you vote for? I admittedly haven't done a reread of you but so far as I can remember you've only barked at shraeye for making a case on you and then had words with mcmc over his support of that case (might be wrong on the specifics there but definitely remember you and mcmc having some interaction). I don't remember you making any cases against anybody.
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Did you completely miss that exchange at the beginning of the day?
I am not saying Dsell is probably town for "calling Eevee out for not saying 'station'"
I am saying this post:
Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
almost certainly comes from someone who noticed that his role pm said "station aligned" and wanted to set a trap for Eevee. The mental gynmastics Dsell would have had to go through to make this post to gain towncred if he were scum would be incredibly impressive to say the least. It seems like you're completely missing this aspect.
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
That "trap" is exactly what I am talking about. It was a "trap" laid to call out Eevee because Eevee said "town" and not "station." That's what I meant by:
...is how town he is for calling out Eevee on station vs. town...
Mental gymnastics, quick thinking, whatever. It was one thing, DAYS ago. Tell me something pro-town he's done since then. Guess what's not pro-town: gaining a billion points of towncred from you all and coasting. And you continue to promise NOT to vote for him.
So, if you all have made him an IC, and he is in fact town, he's an easy NK target (if scum is looking to reduce the number of station-aligned folks to make hunting the other faction/rest of town easier or if they think he's a PR). ICs are amazingly helpful when they are around to lead the town. ICs are not helpful when they are absent.
Guess what, though. Dsell is NOT an IC. So he's not unlynchable. Man...Jimmmmm is Hated and Dsell is an IC? What is this, FakeRMM? People, quit assigning roles and modifiers to people when we don't have any claims/confirmation.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
Why these four when your vote is still on me? Or why is your vote still on me when you've picked these four as the best lynch targets today? Same question, pick your favorite phrasing.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
Why these four when your vote is still on me? Or why is your vote still on me when you've picked these four as the best lynch targets today? Same question, pick your favorite phrasing.
I think you are probably scum. I do NOT think the rest of town will support me in lynching you today.
Those four have had the most discussion on them, so I figure if we're getting anywhere, it's with those four. I think lynching an undercontributor is probably more useful, though.
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Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
liopoil has been too quiet to get a read on. It's scummy behavior, but could be typical newbie scum lurking or typical newbie town lurking (I used to get suspected for this a lot).
Galz is tricky. He often seems like the most pro-town player in the game when he's town, and he's not jumping out at me like that here. Of course he was the last to fill in this game and warned us that he wouldn't be that kind of player here before getting alignment, so this could be Volt in XVI all over again. Still, there's not much to convince me that he's probably town yet.
Okay, back from weekend V/LA. And now I'm late to the party, but I largely concur with this post by Cuzz. I am coming to see Jimm as probably town after all (yeah, I know, quite a reversal for me). In contrast, shraeye now seems the scummiest to me.
The whole "long posts" thing: Really long, really informed, quality posts are difficult to fake as scum. Not impossible, not impossible by any stretch. Especially as the game goes on, and scum have had the ability to flesh out their narrative of the game's events. Look to ehunt in M-XVI for a masterful example of scum doing this. HOWEVER, we are early in the game, and Jimm's long posts aren't fluff, they are comprehensive and substantial. He is doing a LOT of work. Earlier, I thought he was just reacting to public sentiment. I think he is still doing that to some degree, but weighted against the sort of posts he is making now, he ends up seeming fairly town-ish to me. And Jimm being town DOES jive with his huge post count. Huge post count + quality posts = more likely town than scum.
My biggest townread other than Dsell I guess remains theorel, and I see that theorel suspects shraeye--with a lot of self-aware "am I tunneling him?" which is a good thing to be aware of. I am also very wary of shraeye at this point. For one thing, I have no skill whatsoever at reading him, which makes him a dangerous scum in my view, if he is scum. Plus, he is very good at being scum.
But also, it's a bit of POE. I'm sorry, raerae, that we keep lumping the three of you together, but it's because you guys all seem to sync up without intending to. There's gotta be a scum there using the other two for cover. That's what it feels like. Raerae actually does seem like the most likely townie of the three. My opinion of Munch has been all over the place, but I do not see him as scummy as shraeye.
I really did think Mcmc was town this time, based on his altered behavior since his previous game, his first one, where he was scum. He made what looked to me like a weak scumslip though. Now, I don't know you. He defends shraeye and attacks Jimm. Somebody mentioned this could be because he's shraeye's scumbuddy. That seems... way too risky, yes? I think he's smart enough to know not to do that, if they are scum together. So I think it's more likely that he's wrong about stuff. And of course that's only particularly relevant if we lynch shraeye and he flips scum. Unvote
I have to admit I absolutely forced through a shraeye lynch on Day 1 of M-XVI, and he was town. I can't tell if this shraeye is that shraeye, though.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
Why these four when your vote is still on me? Or why is your vote still on me when you've picked these four as the best lynch targets today? Same question, pick your favorite phrasing.
I think you are probably scum. I do NOT think the rest of town will support me in lynching you today.
Those four have had the most discussion on them, so I figure if we're getting anywhere, it's with those four. I think lynching an undercontributor is probably more useful, though.
Ok, I'll accept that. So follow up question: Are you waiting for the rest of town to make their decision before coming to one of your own regarding those four? Surely you have to have some preference.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
Why these four when your vote is still on me? Or why is your vote still on me when you've picked these four as the best lynch targets today? Same question, pick your favorite phrasing.
I think you are probably scum. I do NOT think the rest of town will support me in lynching you today.
Those four have had the most discussion on them, so I figure if we're getting anywhere, it's with those four. I think lynching an undercontributor is probably more useful, though.
Ok, I'll accept that. So follow up question: Are you waiting for the rest of town to make their decision before coming to one of your own regarding those four? Surely you have to have some preference.
I mean, I'll switch my vote when it looks like we're on our way. My own order? Cuzz>>>Jimmmmm>>>shraeye>>>Eevee
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Did you completely miss that exchange at the beginning of the day?
I am not saying Dsell is probably town for "calling Eevee out for not saying 'station'"
I am saying this post:
Wait wait wait. Nobody claim anything just yet.
I'm not sure if it's a mod oversight, and I'm not sure if I'm breaking the game.
But I am not town-aligned. I am the equivalent of town-aligned, but there is a different word for the "town" faction.
Eevee claimed town in his first post.
This may only work once (or not at all if Joth snuffs us out), but I'd like Eevee to claim his specific alignment.
almost certainly comes from someone who noticed that his role pm said "station aligned" and wanted to set a trap for Eevee. The mental gynmastics Dsell would have had to go through to make this post to gain towncred if he were scum would be incredibly impressive to say the least. It seems like you're completely missing this aspect.
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
That "trap" is exactly what I am talking about. It was a "trap" laid to call out Eevee because Eevee said "town" and not "station." That's what I meant by:
...is how town he is for calling out Eevee on station vs. town...
Mental gymnastics, quick thinking, whatever. It was one thing, DAYS ago. Tell me something pro-town he's done since then. Guess what's not pro-town: gaining a billion points of towncred from you all and coasting. And you continue to promise NOT to vote for him.
So, if you all have made him an IC, and he is in fact town, he's an easy NK target (if scum is looking to reduce the number of station-aligned folks to make hunting the other faction/rest of town easier or if they think he's a PR). ICs are amazingly helpful when they are around to lead the town. ICs are not helpful when they are absent.
Guess what, though. Dsell is NOT an IC. So he's not unlynchable. Man...Jimmmmm is Hated and Dsell is an IC? What is this, FakeRMM? People, quit assigning roles and modifiers to people when we don't have any claims/confirmation.
Ashersky has a good point, I think. DSell, your super townie cred does us zero good if you get phasered tonight. And the posts you've made since have definitely felt a little phoned-in.
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Ashersky has a good point, I think. DSell, your super townie cred does us zero good if you get phasered tonight. And the posts you've made since have definitely felt a little phoned-in.
I see what you did there....making star trek references in a star trek game...
Anyway: Yes, he is not necessarily town, but should certainly be everyone's top town read. Lynching people who are likely town is bad. If we get a very good case on him then yes, he is a potential lynch. Right now all you have is the fact that he isn't contributing much. While he should contribute more, it is not grounds for a solid case against him.
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Reread Cuzz, topics in bold, starred ones are more important I feel.
**I don't think Cuzz was actually just skimming during the opening weekend
Cuzz was just vaguely skimming, but still had time to get in a Zing involving mcmcsalot/Robz.
...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
He says that this zing was just too good to pass up, and really is just skimming the thread, but really the quote he pulled came out of a fairly long block of text. Doesn’t look like just skimming to me. Either that or he’s just paying unusual attention to mcmcsalot’s posts.
Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player (said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
Cuzz tells mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell
Here’s another interaction with mcmcsalot, when momsalon calls out Dsell for giving reads without any evidence. What sticks out to me is the last sentence, where it sounds a lot like he’s telling mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell, instead of simply backing up Dsell’s methods.
I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion. Also I've noticed while going through this turns one post about reads into two posts, over 16 pages things like this are going to drastically increase your post count, this will later muddle the read on you which if you are town is anti town, I want an accurate reason to make town reads on people.
I don't agree with this at all. If you're town, saying as much about your thoughts as possible is pro-town, even if you don't have the time to flesh those thoughts out fully.
...
Also, there's no need to call out Dsell because he's town.
**my original case on him
The next big thing that pops out is his reaction to my case on him being “complete bullshit.” He then breaks it down point by point in response, but never responds to the big part of my case where he keeps giving off “but that’s not the right reason for suspecting me” tell.
my cuzz-case from before
response
**next thing
I was emotionally defensive in that game. I tried to guilt and manipulate people into not lynching me based on a "I'm sorry for making you suspect me! I'm town and I don't want to make us lose!" type of plea. I feel like my defensiveness in this game was based on a point-by-point rebuttal of what I thought were inaccurate positions taken against me. And if people think my defensiveness was over the top, it's because I was astounded by just how inaccurate I found some of these positions to be.
I don't necessarily want to get into a huge Cuzz-meta discussion though. I've tried to switch it up every time I've been scum, so I doubt it's helpful for me or anyone else to overanalyze it in this game. I haven't been town in a while either, so comparing to early town games of mine when I was new and sucked (more so I mean) at this game is maybe also misleading.
Here Cuzz is discouraging us recalling emotionally defensive in Casino mafia (MXVI), but when I read the second paragraph this time around, I get the idea that AGAIN he’s saying that we can’t connect him this time to his past-scum plays because he changes things everytime he plays scum….implying that he’s scum in this game as well. Vote: Cuzz
**the deflection to lurkerGlooble
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
Nobody had mentioned glooble being suspicious (or really mentioned glooble at all in the past 2 days) at the time of this post. Pointing to a lurker when in a bit of trouble is a classic way for scum to deflect attention, and hopefully the lynch, to somebody else.
Then after a few people vote for Glooble, and cuzz sees that this lurker lynch is gaining traction he jumps on with this statement
So, Glooble's at 4 votes? Is there anyone who is opposed to the Glooble lynch? (I'm not opposed, I weakly support it...no vote yet.)
I can't see any good reason to oppose such a lynch, other than "Glooble always lurks." But it's anti-town anyway. There's a reason LaLL is a thing. The only post of his that's stood out to me was his accusing me of trying to lynch Eevee as quickly as possible which was pretty unfair. Even shraeye defended me against that.
Vote: Glooble
Which tells me at least that glooble isn’t on cuzz’s scumteam. This is another classic scumpost, basically saying that “well there’s no real reason NOT to lynch him, I guess we’ll just hope he’s scum…aw shoot, he was town, well I was looking for a reason to oppose the lynch as you can see, maybe he should have acted more pro-town”
more interaction with mcmcsalot
I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
Now this looks a lot like defending one’s scumpartner.
**Cuzz gives reads, Jimmm and mcmcsalot reads are odd
Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
So now Cuzz has moved from suspicious of Jimmm to having a strong townread on Jimmm. Apparently all it takes is defending Cuzz. Well I hope nobody else buys townreads that way, because I’m super sure now that Cuzz is scum. There’s just too much going on here.
Note in the above post that cuzz puts mcmcsalot in the “do not have townreads” category despite defending the ‘scumslip’ that Robz/Galzria picked up on earlier.
Vote: Cuzz for emphasis.
Cuzz's previous opinion on Jimmmm
#373 he has a bad vibe from JImmm’s bad Eevee case
#399
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
#403 he says that he doesn’t have a super strong scumread on Jimmm from this, but is a bit suspicious
#423 he says he agrees with everything in Robz’s post here:
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
So I suppose Cuzz is now very suspicious of Jimmm; at this point Cuzz is voting Eevee because of Eevee’s Cuzzvote where Eevee didn’t “back up a bunch of stuff from his explanation”. I suspect that Cuzz is actually agreeing more with Robz’s explanation on why people should be willing to lynch Eevee.
Aha, I think this post explains that Cuzz really is suspicious of Jimmmm for something
The issue I have is more with Jimmmmm than with you, raerae, but your "I'm in your corner" remark is causing me to attribute Jimmmmm's statements about Eevee to you as well, and it's possible you didn't mean to imply that you agreed with Jimmmmm about the specific thing I take issue with.
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Ashersky has a good point, I think. DSell, your super townie cred does us zero good if you get phasered tonight. And the posts you've made since have definitely felt a little phoned-in.
I see what you did there....making star trek references in a star trek game...
Anyway: Yes, he is not necessarily town, but should certainly be everyone's top town read. Lynching people who are likely town is bad. If we get a very good case on him then yes, he is a potential lynch. Right now all you have is the fact that he isn't contributing much. While he should contribute more, it is not grounds for a solid case against him.
Bolded scum slip. How are you not your top town read?
I know ashersky is my top town read.
/okaynotreallyascumsclipbutfuntopointoutanyway
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Apologies for the length, but there are just soo many things pointing to Cuzz being scum.
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@shraeye -- You can add Cuzz's strong defense of Dsell again in response to my suggestion that he may be pegged as the biggest undercontributor.
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Shraeye's analysis is extremely convincing to me.
Vote: Cuzz
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it's cause I don't read myself! I know what I am. Although perhaps I should try to read myself from somebody elses perspective...
Shraeye's argument against cuzz is very convincing, and I would vote for cuzz right away if it weren't for the possibility that shraeye is scum... still, even if shraeye is scum he probably thinks that cuzz is on the other scum team... okay, I'm convinced. Vote: Cuzz
PPE: oh cool! glooble voted too.
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I apologize for undercontributing. When is the deadline? Is it end of the week or like, tomorrow?
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The replicators have started making all the coffee cold. Could it be sabotage? No, probably not.
Whatever, Rom is ON IT.
Vote Count 1.14
Cuzz (5): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil {L-3}
raerae (1): ashersky
Jimmmmm (2): raerae, mcmcsalot
Glooble(2): Eevee, yuma
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
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Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.
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Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.
You forget it's multi-ball, my dear. Nobody knows nothing.
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I must admit, shraeye, I find your case compelling. Still haven't had time to re-read Cuzz, but when I do, I will be taking your case into serious consideration.
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Thats the point. :D
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Could you respond to my question while you're at it, please?
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This, I believe is the sort of sentiment that Jimmm says that mcmcsalot’s current posts are lacking. I’ll keep an eye out as I reread to see how mcmcsalot’s reads develop. Jimmm could be completely right here, or possibly mcmcsalot is just doing a common newbie-mistake of getting too confident in reads.
Okay first off sorry for not being here. I was unaware that when the thread moved I needed to post in it to be updated when people posted. Secondly, its a lot harder to get reads on people when you don't already know there alignment. I read through everything and dunno, get a slight scum vibe from eevee and liopoil. To explain eevee reminds me of how he played in the last blits game, and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.
mcmcsalot gets ‘tricked’ by Jimmm
Mcmcsalot agrees to Jimmm’s case quite readily it seems (I’m recalling that he very quickly agreed to my argument against Jimmm’s case later, and made it into a jimmm-tricked-us! thing)
Jimm, after scratching my head over the eevee thing your latest post has finally made me understand it quite well. Upon understanding eevee does seem scummy, still not voting for him however just can't get out of blitz mode and I'm not thaat confident in anyone's scumminess.
Jimm is now my top scum read, with the amount of analysis he has had I read him as a very smart player who know what hes doing.
Jimm taking this out of context is ridiculous, I guess its my mistake for not going over it enough myself, but really I had strong scum feeling toward someone because of an out of context exaggeration. This just seems like a very anti town play, there is no reason for town!jimm to start a scumhunt by tricking people.
Yeah, this reaction really seems bigger than necessary, but he does tone it down quickly after I said that Jimmm wasn’t trying to trick people. A bit suspicious the tone between these two posts, which are less than an hour apart.
Let me be clear I'm also not ready to vote for him yet, I'm not ready to vote for anyone yet.
Later on he talks about his reaction being a bit extreme and explains why.
To answer theorel, I said before that this reaction from me was in fact over the top. It was due to the fact that I had put too much faith in someone else's argument early on in the game and realized I cannot do that as I cannot trust anyone.
I do however have a strong scum read on Jim now because of the way he has acted under pressure and because of the case he has made against me. I believe his case against me is poor and flawed, I would like him to answer my previous question or at least explain what he meant. I will quote it in the next post for reference.
mcmcsalot gives reads
He posts a case on ashersky in #309, and this case is a bit hard to follow. I think it has point where it looks to mcmcsalot like Jimmm was coaching ashersky, along with ashersky being scummy for his interactions with raerae. Oh, also ashersky giving reads without evidence.
I didn’t find ashersky/raerae very scummy for either side, also I’m not a big fan of cases about reads without evidence, but I don’t recall the way that ashersky was giving reads. In general I’m confused by the one-big-paragraph format of this case, which makes it harder to agree with.
In #319 he gives a read on Robz, and I think it’s a townread, but I don’t see mcmcsalot reach any real conclusion here, he just says some thoughts.
Yuma, this one is less indepth as coming from phone. You have some solid analysis coming out early game. Many of your posts were about the raerae, ashersky debacle so no reads of of that. The only thing that gives me a read on you is that you felt I was scummy, said I made the scummiest post in the game and then as the arguing started you seem to have forgot your post about me. As did whomever you asked to comment who was scummier, me or eevee. That gives me a bit of a scum read as you tried to push a case on me and when noone picked it up you dropped it.
Here’s a case on Yuma, he finds Yuma a bit scummy for pushing a case on mcmcsalot and then dropping it. I don’t find this too scummy myself, but can see how a newbie might interpret cases on them as being pushed by scum. That feels sorta towny from a newer player standpoint in my eyes. It takes a bit of experience to realize that often incorrect cases can be pushed with good intentions by a fellow town player. Especially because mcmcsalot’s first game was as scum, where he saw firsthand his team push bad/middling cases on town players.
Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.
Here’s another post where I think the new-player, unsure factor that Jimmm was looking for shows up. In this post he reaches the conclusion that eevee is scummy, but I disagree with this conclusion. He has a nullread on Eevee from the Dsell interaction (I would expect a scum player with solid, manufactured reads to push them at every instance, the classic scummy tunnelling). It seems that mcmcsalot’s main scumread on Eevee comes from picking a group of 8 people to analyze in no particular order, and not giving full explanations. Mcmcsalot himself is doing the first thing, so I don’t see why he finds that scummy.
Still he qualifies this later saying that the only person he’s comfortable voting for (I read this as his only strong scumread) is ashersky. So I see his scum reads on Eevee/Yuma to really just be more “oh, I’m leaning scum on them” but using much more confident language than he means (hey, I do that sometimes!).
new player is confused in sea of players/reads
Went to bed at 11, woke up at 9 to 4 pages!
unvote this is because of two reason, the second being knowingly terrible, 1) ash's recent posts have read towny to me and 2) my scum read on him is from posts pages and pages ago, they have been lost in so many other things I couldn't make a case on him if I was asked to.
This really is the post that I think Jimm was talking about. His previous scumread is now looking towny, and he’s overwhelmed by the pages and pages of info.
Ok, I have to go to dinner, so I didn’t look at his most recent 6 posts, but I’ll just cut it short to eat.
overall interpretation
I am uncertain about mcmcsalot. I find a lot of his opinions a bit confusing, his read on Yuma I disagree with, and I think his scumread on Eevee really has very very little backing it up. I find that Eevee-read a bit suspicious. But his other provided reads/reasons make me see him in a towny light. I have a mild town-read on him from his posts. But, on the other hand, I see a bit of a connection between him and Cuzz, and I find Cuzz very very highly scummy. If Cuzz flips scum as I expect he will, my suspicion of mcmcsalot will naturally be higher, but it will be probably a weak/medium scumsuspicion. Too much of mcmcsalot’s D1 play looks towny for me to make him the go-to lynch tomorrow if Cuzz flips scum.
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I plan to get to Jimmm, but I want to say that I find my suspicion on him waning right now. Maybe a reread will reaffirm what i saw before, maybe it'll make him less suspicious in my eyes. Jimmm is probably at a lower-medium scumread right now.
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Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.
You forget it's multi-ball, my dear. Nobody knows nothing.
That just means that if Cuzz flips scum, shraeye isn't cleared. Not the other way around, in my opinion.
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Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.
You forget it's multi-ball, my dear. Nobody knows nothing.
That just means that if Cuzz flips scum, shraeye isn't cleared. Not the other way around, in my opinion.
I just don't see how shraeye looks "terrible" if cuzz flips town, same way I don't think it makes him look great if cuzz flips scum. I don't think it tells us a whole lot about shraeye either way.
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I just don't see how shraeye looks "terrible" if cuzz flips town, same way I don't think it makes him look great if cuzz flips scum. I don't think it tells us a whole lot about shraeye either way.
I mean, anyone who formulates such a huge, in-depth case on D1 on a townie looks bad. It's just the way it is. Doesn't mean he's scum, but it will look bad.
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Shraeye, I appreciate the amount of effort you're putting into this case. That kind of effort is almost always pro-whatever your alignment is. But you're wrong. For town's sake I hope you're scum, because you will get heat tomorrow if this lynch goes through. I'll go ahead and respond to each point you make below. Let me know if I miss anything.
Reread Cuzz, topics in bold, starred ones are more important I feel.
**I don't think Cuzz was actually just skimming during the opening weekend
Cuzz was just vaguely skimming, but still had time to get in a Zing involving mcmcsalot/Robz.
...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
He says that this zing was just too good to pass up, and really is just skimming the thread, but really the quote he pulled came out of a fairly long block of text. Doesn’t look like just skimming to me. Either that or he’s just paying unusual attention to mcmcsalot’s posts.
Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player (said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
This is gonna turn into a discussion about my playstyle that will be very boring and fruitless, but here goes. Game started on a Friday night. All of the discussion up to that point was about the mechanics of the game, and the Eevee/Dsell thing, and I believe I weighed in on both. Some standard RVS, nothing too exciting. Then weekend began and I was busy. I don't think I am the only one who believes that this game was far more active than most last weekend. I skimmed the thread all weekend, but I don't usually wish to post until I've carefully caught up on everything. One time, I happened to be skimming the thread, and that post from mcmc was the most recent one. It might seem reasonable that when I check for new posts, the most recent one stands out and gets read a little bit more closely. Well this just so happened in this case and I caught the opportunity for a stupid joke.
I'm trying to explain what happened around this point in the game, but honestly what are you even accusing me of here? You think I lied about how closely I was following the game during a busy weekend? It helps if in your case you make some mention of why your point implies that I'm more likely to be scum, because I really don't see it here.
Cuzz tells mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell
Here’s another interaction with mcmcsalot, when momsalon calls out Dsell for giving reads without any evidence. What sticks out to me is the last sentence, where it sounds a lot like he’s telling mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell, instead of simply backing up Dsell’s methods.
I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion. Also I've noticed while going through this turns one post about reads into two posts, over 16 pages things like this are going to drastically increase your post count, this will later muddle the read on you which if you are town is anti town, I want an accurate reason to make town reads on people.
I don't agree with this at all. If you're town, saying as much about your thoughts as possible is pro-town, even if you don't have the time to flesh those thoughts out fully.
...
Also, there's no need to call out Dsell because he's town.
Again, what am I being accused of here? It doesn't count as part of a case if you're just summarizing things I've said without explaining what about those things leads you to think I am not town-aligned.
I saw mcmc pointing some suspicion at Dsell, and I mentioned that such suspicion is a bit silly at this juncture since all evidence points to Dsell being town. I just had this argument with ash a few hours ago and don't feel like repeating it now.
**my original case on him
The next big thing that pops out is his reaction to my case on him being “complete bullshit.” He then breaks it down point by point in response, but never responds to the big part of my case where he keeps giving off “but that’s not the right reason for suspecting me” tell.
my cuzz-case from before
response
I think the quote you're talking about here is this one:
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
You think this is scum being frustrated at being "caught" without reason. At a certain point, shraeye, I'm not sure what to say other than that you're wrong. I can only say it so many times. Eevee said some stuff that I wanted clarification of (and by the way, still never got. Check back: Eevee has never answered the question in the above quote unless I missed something). But that's neither here nor there. As town, I'm not gonna say "it IS inconceivable for me to be fitting your scum narrative of me that you've yet to explain" because that's irrational. People suspect town of being scum all the time, so it is quite conceivable, albeit incorrect. You're doing it right now, for example.
**next thing
I was emotionally defensive in that game. I tried to guilt and manipulate people into not lynching me based on a "I'm sorry for making you suspect me! I'm town and I don't want to make us lose!" type of plea. I feel like my defensiveness in this game was based on a point-by-point rebuttal of what I thought were inaccurate positions taken against me. And if people think my defensiveness was over the top, it's because I was astounded by just how inaccurate I found some of these positions to be.
I don't necessarily want to get into a huge Cuzz-meta discussion though. I've tried to switch it up every time I've been scum, so I doubt it's helpful for me or anyone else to overanalyze it in this game. I haven't been town in a while either, so comparing to early town games of mine when I was new and sucked (more so I mean) at this game is maybe also misleading.
Here Cuzz is discouraging us recalling emotionally defensive in Casino mafia (MXVI), but when I read the second paragraph this time around, I get the idea that AGAIN he’s saying that we can’t connect him this time to his past-scum plays because he changes things everytime he plays scum….implying that he’s scum in this game as well. Vote: Cuzz
I'm getting more and more irritated the more of this case I read. Can you please reread my quoted statement above, and notice how in that paragraph, I advise against comparing my current play to my prior scum play AND my prior town play? And then can you read your quoted response in which you ignore half of that statement? Also my definition of the word "implying" must be different from yours because my statement implies no. such. thing.
**the deflection to lurkerGlooble
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
Nobody had mentioned glooble being suspicious (or really mentioned glooble at all in the past 2 days) at the time of this post. Pointing to a lurker when in a bit of trouble is a classic way for scum to deflect attention, and hopefully the lynch, to somebody else.
Then after a few people vote for Glooble, and cuzz sees that this lurker lynch is gaining traction he jumps on with this statement
So, Glooble's at 4 votes? Is there anyone who is opposed to the Glooble lynch? (I'm not opposed, I weakly support it...no vote yet.)
I can't see any good reason to oppose such a lynch, other than "Glooble always lurks." But it's anti-town anyway. There's a reason LaLL is a thing. The only post of his that's stood out to me was his accusing me of trying to lynch Eevee as quickly as possible which was pretty unfair. Even shraeye defended me against that.
Vote: Glooble
Which tells me at least that glooble isn’t on cuzz’s scumteam. This is another classic scumpost, basically saying that “well there’s no real reason NOT to lynch him, I guess we’ll just hope he’s scum…aw shoot, he was town, well I was looking for a reason to oppose the lynch as you can see, maybe he should have acted more pro-town”
You got me. Congrats. I was the first one to call out Glooble for lurking. I deflected to Glooble because I was sick of people focussing on me and suspecting me. I decided to steer the conversation to someone who I thought looked scummy. You know what conclusion this leads to? Can you guess? It leads to me not wanting to be lynched. You know who doesn't want to be lynched in this game? F**king EVERYONE. It does not lead to me being scum.
more interaction with mcmcsalot
I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
Now this looks a lot like defending one’s scumpartner.
It's not though. I am not scum and therefore have no scumpartner. (Are you reading along, Munch? I said I'm not scum) This was simply me saying I didn't like the case Galz made.
**Cuzz gives reads, Jimmm and mcmcsalot reads are odd
Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
So now Cuzz has moved from suspicious of Jimmm to having a strong townread on Jimmm. Apparently all it takes is defending Cuzz. Well I hope nobody else buys townreads that way, because I’m super sure now that Cuzz is scum. There’s just too much going on here.
Note in the above post that cuzz puts mcmcsalot in the “do not have townreads” category despite defending the ‘scumslip’ that Robz/Galzria picked up on earlier.
Vote: Cuzz for emphasis.
I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Also, your comment about mcmc there is nonsense. I can have a scumread on someone and still disagree with a particular accusation someone else makes of that person. That's not particularly twisted logic and I am not sure why you're having trouble following it.
Cuzz's previous opinion on Jimmmm
#373 he has a bad vibe from JImmm’s bad Eevee case
#399
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
#403 he says that he doesn’t have a super strong scumread on Jimmm from this, but is a bit suspicious
#423 he says he agrees with everything in Robz’s post here:
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
So I suppose Cuzz is now very suspicious of Jimmm; at this point Cuzz is voting Eevee because of Eevee’s Cuzzvote where Eevee didn’t “back up a bunch of stuff from his explanation”. I suspect that Cuzz is actually agreeing more with Robz’s explanation on why people should be willing to lynch Eevee.
Aha, I think this post explains that Cuzz really is suspicious of Jimmmm for something
The issue I have is more with Jimmmmm than with you, raerae, but your "I'm in your corner" remark is causing me to attribute Jimmmmm's statements about Eevee to you as well, and it's possible you didn't mean to imply that you agreed with Jimmmmm about the specific thing I take issue with.
You are putting these quotes out of order, and I don't know if you're trying to intentionally mislead people here, but as the one being accused I find it really obnoxious. Check the timestamps, folks. I found Jimmmmm a bit scummy at one point (around January 7 as above). I now don't think he's scum (as explained later on January 12 in the earlier quote). What's the problem exactly?
PPE: I just reread my post, and do apologize for the excessively snarky tone. I don't really feel like rewriting everything in a more polite fashion though. Shraeye, I'm sure there are things you still disagree with, but please do let me know if you think I failed to respond to any important part of your case.
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Could you respond to my question while you're at it, please?
Can you remind me what that was?
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I just don't see how shraeye looks "terrible" if cuzz flips town, same way I don't think it makes him look great if cuzz flips scum. I don't think it tells us a whole lot about shraeye either way.
I mean, anyone who formulates such a huge, in-depth case on D1 on a townie looks bad. It's just the way it is. Doesn't mean he's scum, but it will look bad.
Ash you're starting not to look so great here either. You're gonna sheep shraeye's case on me, and then immediately go on about how scummy he'll look when I flip town?
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Could you respond to my question while you're at it, please?
Can you remind me what that was?
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
Ok, fabulous, you won't vote for Dsell. Who will you vote for? I admittedly haven't done a reread of you but so far as I can remember you've only barked at shraeye for making a case on you and then had words with mcmc over his support of that case (might be wrong on the specifics there but definitely remember you and mcmc having some interaction). I don't remember you making any cases against anybody.
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I just don't see how shraeye looks "terrible" if cuzz flips town, same way I don't think it makes him look great if cuzz flips scum. I don't think it tells us a whole lot about shraeye either way.
I mean, anyone who formulates such a huge, in-depth case on D1 on a townie looks bad. It's just the way it is. Doesn't mean he's scum, but it will look bad.
Yep.
Ash you're starting not to look so great here either. You're gonna sheep shraeye's case on me, and then immediately go on about how scummy he'll look when I flip town?
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I just don't see how shraeye looks "terrible" if cuzz flips town, same way I don't think it makes him look great if cuzz flips scum. I don't think it tells us a whole lot about shraeye either way.
I mean, anyone who formulates such a huge, in-depth case on D1 on a townie looks bad. It's just the way it is. Doesn't mean he's scum, but it will look bad.
Ash you're starting not to look so great here either. You're gonna sheep shraeye's case on me, and then immediately go on about how scummy he'll look when I flip town?
Yep.
Quote fail above.
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I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Why not go into this now? Your ass is on the line and you aren't doing something that could potentially save it? Are you just trying to buy time hoping somebody can get you out of this? Why would you not give town more information especially considering Jimmmmm is reasonably high on more than a few people's scum radars right now? Waiting for your response to my question but pretty comfortable with moving my vote right now.
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Cuzz's frustration in his response to the shraeye case is something I can relate to. I really can. I also feel like Cuzz has been dying fairly early in recent games, so that can add to the frustration.
Still, I think he's a good lynch option today.
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@shraeye's case. A summary:
1. When skimming he noticed a single line in the middle of a post that no one could ever notice while skimming in shraeye's estimation.
2. he's clearly partners with mcmcsalot, because he coached him and defended him. This means that shraeye's already found the scum team.
3. He didn't address the "suspecting me for the wrong reasons" scumtell.
4. he deflected to Glooble.
5. He changed his read of Jimmmmm over a 5-day period from kind of scummy to strong town-read.
6. He has a null-read on mcmcsalot but was still willing to defend him from what he considered a bad scum-slip attack.
So, 1, 2, 5, and 6 are all total crap.
It should be obvious why I think 1&2 are bad based on the sarcastic remarks contained above.
5: He clearly included in his change of read that it was based on how Jimmmmm defended him, and why he thinks it's a town-tell. (i.e. simply saying nah I think Cuzz is town is insufficient)
6: If you can only defend people you have town-reads on, them I'm obviously super-scummy because I have a null-to-slight scum read on Cuzz. No sorry, calling out bad "scum-slip" attacks is a totally legitimate tactic regardless of your read on the person being called out. That was not a defense of mcmcsalot, and I don't see why his interactions with mcmcsalot suggest that a null-read is off base in even the slightest way.
3&4 are legitimate. The rest is fluff intended to inflate shraeye's case and make a longer post. FOS: Glooble, lipoil, and Ashersky for sheeping this.
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Cuzz's frustration in his response to the shraeye case is something I can relate to. I really can. I also feel like Cuzz has been dying fairly early in recent games, so that can add to the frustration.
Still, I think he's a good lynch option today.
ohmygodyousuck
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Catching up from phone.
ashersky, no one is saying Dsell is IC EXCEPT FOR YOU. I 100% agree with cuzz, it's like we got a semi-naive cop saying "I have 75% accurate info Dsell is town".
Now, he hasn't played GOOD town today, but that doesn't
change the fact he is my biggest townread after myself. I repeat: if he was crafty enough
to say the station thing as scum, wouldn't he also make sure to post enough to build on the towny status? Remember how long lolcats was in night? Dsell seems like a busy townie to me.
I don't like the cuzz lynch, he has been making sense to me and also seems genuine in his emotions. So apologies, not participating in that lynch.
munch or shraeye are my preferences, still wouldn't oppose glooble. I realize this makes me the guy who derails and doesn't help us get a lynch sooner but I'm not going against my reads.
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vote: no lynch
I read someone's thread on parity, but it didn't mention multiple scum teams.
We're clearly not getting a consensus on anyone going, so I think it's in town's best interest to get to night and hopefully 3 investigations.
@theo -- depends how you define sheeping--I followed the votes onto the most promising wagon, not the argument laid out by shraeye. I mean, check out Cuzz's interactions. They aren't the towniest of the day.
@Cuzz -- yeah, probably. Still, at least I feel your pain, right?
@Eevee -- you continue to read townier than the people you claim are town. Would you join me on raerae?
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Could you respond to my question while you're at it, please?
Can you remind me what that was?
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
Ok, fabulous, you won't vote for Dsell. Who will you vote for? I admittedly haven't done a reread of you but so far as I can remember you've only barked at shraeye for making a case on you and then had words with mcmc over his support of that case (might be wrong on the specifics there but definitely remember you and mcmc having some interaction). I don't remember you making any cases against anybody.
I feel like I've spent most of the time I care to spend on this game defending myself and haven't had a ton of time for rereading others and solidifying my reads. I have given an overview though which you apparently missed (actually PPE you couldn't have missed it because you got annoyed with me putting you shraeye and munch together in that post). Anyway
I will probably not vote for Dsell, Robz, Jimmmmm, theorel, or yuma today. I probably also won't vote for Galz or liopoil but less sure there. Would potentially vote for you, Eevee, Glooble, munch, shraeye, mcmc and now ash as well. Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
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You guys are killing me. I'll respond to shraeye's case after the pats game is over.
Could you respond to my question while you're at it, please?
Can you remind me what that was?
I don't know how much more I need to discuss this. I'm not voting for Dsell today. End of story.
Ok, fabulous, you won't vote for Dsell. Who will you vote for? I admittedly haven't done a reread of you but so far as I can remember you've only barked at shraeye for making a case on you and then had words with mcmc over his support of that case (might be wrong on the specifics there but definitely remember you and mcmc having some interaction). I don't remember you making any cases against anybody.
I feel like I've spent most of the time I care to spend on this game defending myself and haven't had a ton of time for rereading others and solidifying my reads. I have given an overview though which you apparently missed (actually PPE you couldn't have missed it because you got annoyed with me putting you shraeye and munch together in that post). Anyway
I will probably not vote for Dsell, Robz, Jimmmmm, theorel, or yuma today. I probably also won't vote for Galz or liopoil but less sure there. Would potentially vote for you, Eevee, Glooble, munch, shraeye, mcmc and now ash as well. Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
I changed my vote, so that self-vote won't work.
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i would, yes. Vote:raerae even, I'm fine with voting for any of Munch, liopoil, shraeye, raerae or glooble, not likely to vote for anyone else today.
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i would, yes. Vote:raerae even, I'm fine with voting for any of Munch, liopoil, shraeye, raerae or glooble, not likely to vote for anyone else today.
Okay. vote: raerae, my original scum read.
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I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Why not go into this now? Your ass is on the line and you aren't doing something that could potentially save it? Are you just trying to buy time hoping somebody can get you out of this? Why would you not give town more information especially considering Jimmmmm is reasonably high on more than a few people's scum radars right now? Waiting for your response to my question but pretty comfortable with moving my vote right now.
Because I don't want to right now.
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I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Why not go into this now? Your ass is on the line and you aren't doing something that could potentially save it? Are you just trying to buy time hoping somebody can get you out of this? Why would you not give town more information especially considering Jimmmmm is reasonably high on more than a few people's scum radars right now? Waiting for your response to my question but pretty comfortable with moving my vote right now.
Because I don't want to right now.
Cuzz, who are you willing to sheep at this point?
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Vote: Cuzz
Shraeye's argument is good, cuzz hasn't contributed because he's been too busy defending himself, and still refuses to tell us why jimmmmm is so town. I'm sold.
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Vote: Cuzz
Shraeye's argument is good, cuzz hasn't contributed because he's been too busy defending himself, and still refuses to tell us why jimmmmm is so town. I'm sold.
Survivalissssm. Note to self: raerae had a chance to persuade me with ate here, but failed to do so.
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@shraeye's case. A summary:
1. When skimming he noticed a single line in the middle of a post that no one could ever notice while skimming in shraeye's estimation.
2. he's clearly partners with mcmcsalot, because he coached him and defended him. This means that shraeye's already found the scum team.
3. He didn't address the "suspecting me for the wrong reasons" scumtell.
4. he deflected to Glooble.
5. He changed his read of Jimmmmm over a 5-day period from kind of scummy to strong town-read.
6. He has a null-read on mcmcsalot but was still willing to defend him from what he considered a bad scum-slip attack.
So, 1, 2, 5, and 6 are all total crap.
It should be obvious why I think 1&2 are bad based on the sarcastic remarks contained above.
5: He clearly included in his change of read that it was based on how Jimmmmm defended him, and why he thinks it's a town-tell. (i.e. simply saying nah I think Cuzz is town is insufficient)
6: If you can only defend people you have town-reads on, them I'm obviously super-scummy because I have a null-to-slight scum read on Cuzz. No sorry, calling out bad "scum-slip" attacks is a totally legitimate tactic regardless of your read on the person being called out. That was not a defense of mcmcsalot, and I don't see why his interactions with mcmcsalot suggest that a null-read is off base in even the slightest way.
3&4 are legitimate. The rest is fluff intended to inflate shraeye's case and make a longer post. FOS: Glooble, lipoil, and Ashersky for sheeping this.
1. Seems legit to me, at least as supporting evidence. When lurking as scum, in previous games, I definitely read much more carefully than when I was lurking as town. And popping in to make a joke is great from a scum lurking perspective. It reminds everyone your still around without having to put yourself out there with reads, etc.
2. I need to retread to form an opinion.
5 and 6 I agree are kind of weak.
But it's still the best case I've seen, and I feel fine about keeping my vote where it is.
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Vote: Cuzz
Shraeye's argument is good, cuzz hasn't contributed because he's been too busy defending himself, and still refuses to tell us why jimmmmm is so town. I'm sold.
Survivalissssm. Note to self: raerae had a chance to persuade me with ate here, but failed to do so.
Wait, persuade you? Tell me what you want to know and I'll address it but I already announced intent to vote cuzz a few posts back. Well before you and ash decided to form a wagon on me for...I'm sorry, what was the reason?
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I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Why not go into this now? Your ass is on the line and you aren't doing something that could potentially save it? Are you just trying to buy time hoping somebody can get you out of this? Why would you not give town more information especially considering Jimmmmm is reasonably high on more than a few people's scum radars right now? Waiting for your response to my question but pretty comfortable with moving my vote right now.
Because I don't want to right now.
Cuzz, who are you willing to sheep at this point?
I dunno if it's helpful to answer this right now. If I say a few names here and one of them turns out to be scum then they can use that to manipulate my vote.
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Vote: Cuzz
Shraeye's argument is good, cuzz hasn't contributed because he's been too busy defending himself, and still refuses to tell us why jimmmmm is so town. I'm sold.
Survivalissssm. Note to self: raerae had a chance to persuade me with ate here, but failed to do so.
Wait, persuade you? Tell me what you want to know and I'll address it but I already announced intent to vote cuzz a few posts back. Well before you and ash decided to form a wagon on me for...I'm sorry, what was the reason?
Well, I meant I got to take a read from your response to getting two votes in a rapid fashion. I'm not saying you couldnt react like that as town, but sometimes people react in a way that's very very likely to be a townie reaction and this wasn't one of those times.
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Cuzz, who are you willing to sheep at this point?
I dunno if it's helpful to answer this right now. If I say a few names here and one of them turns out to be scum then they can use that to manipulate my vote.
That's a good and fair answer.
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Vote: Cuzz
Shraeye's argument is good, cuzz hasn't contributed because he's been too busy defending himself, and still refuses to tell us why jimmmmm is so town. I'm sold.
Survivalissssm. Note to self: raerae had a chance to persuade me with ate here, but failed to do so.
Wait, persuade you? Tell me what you want to know and I'll address it but I already announced intent to vote cuzz a few posts back. Well before you and ash decided to form a wagon on me for...I'm sorry, what was the reason?
Well, I meant I got to take a read from your response to getting two votes in a rapid fashion. I'm not saying you couldnt react like that as town, but sometimes people react in a way that's very very likely to be a townie reaction and this wasn't one of those times.
Did you want me to fly off the handle like I did when ash called me going to dinner a scumtell? That was embarrassing and I won't repeat it. Plus, neither of you has presented a case on me (at least not recently) so I have nothing to respond to other than your votes.
Ok, I'll play. Why, oh why are you voting for me? What have I ever done to deserve such a thing? *sobs violently in corner*
Seriously, give me something to respond to and I'd be more than happy to but right now you two voting for me looks like deflection from the cuzz lynch and nothing more.
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Well istrue I'm deflecting, Cuzz seems towny to me I don't want him lynched.
I can't word a case for you, it's process of elimination, gut and feel based reads. I'm not good at finding scummy behavior. I have a group of people I don't want to lynch for various reasons, you haven't gotten to that group so I'm fine with lynching you.
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as such I would like all of Eevee, Cuzz, Jimmm and Glooble to discuss their individual wagons and tell us who out of the who voted for them are the most likely to be town and the most likely to be scum.
I think only Cuzz answered this question, which I do find to be relevant still.
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Cuzz is good. I'm fine with Eevee's refusal to participate. That is good information and it is on record. I think everyones talking alot and saying relatively nothing.
Ashersky is chock full of readception (and recently has been posting and phrasing arguments in a way that actually might have me convinced his scum and not just really wrong).
Eevee's vote on RaeRae is incredibly strange to me; maybe its just that hes following provocation from Ashersky (I know, readception of my own if that is actually the case but at least I'm trying to be honest with myself and its the reason I'm not voting for Eevee; I think my unease is more that you could replace Ashersky with anyone that is has a scum read on someone that few people share that says: Hey lets vote X and Eevee goes sure, especially when Eevee expressed other reads which he expanded to include Raerae after the vote?).
Cuzz's responses aren't really convincing the people that think that he is scum that he is not scum and is doing so in a very wordsy fashion.
Everyone else that is posting cases. Sure, thats fine but I think all I'm really going to take away from all that is who is making what case on who, not necessarily how strong those cases are. I dont think anything new is really being said from what I skim. Its just people finding the response to their cases just as scummy as their original cases, which is just arguably understandable confirmation biased.
So Ashersky moved his vote and Raerae is on board, Cuzz is back at L-2. I'm gonna ask of the people not recently involved with the cuzz wagon (momsalon, yuma, dsell, jim, theorel, robz) to just state (even if they did say it and I missed it, I'm sorry), which category you fall into:
1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
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Well istrue I'm deflecting, Cuzz seems towny to me I don't want him lynched.
I can't word a case for you, it's process of elimination, gut and feel based reads. I'm not good at finding scummy behavior. I have a group of people I don't want to lynch for various reasons, you haven't gotten to that group so I'm fine with lynching you.
How could you possibly have a POE argument on Raerae...
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vote: no lynch
I read someone's thread on parity, but it didn't mention multiple scum teams.
We're clearly not getting a consensus on anyone going
What are you talking about, with the "we're not getting a consensus on anyone"?? Cuzz is at L-2, and if you kept your vote on him, that would be L-1 now. That sounds like very heavy consensus to me.
I know there are detractors, but if we slow down every single wagon because of detractors, we'll create a situation like Casino that went on forever until I purposely fell on the sword just to end the day.
You waited all of 3.5 hours between voting for Cuzz and declaring that we weren't getting consensus? I suppose between your vote and unvote we had Cuzz, theorel and Eevee expressing disinterest in the Cuzz case. But that's nowhere near the "I guess this is going nowhere" stage.
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Question retracted. I guess you are referring to the second half where you say you dont want to lynch this subset so you'll lynch the other. This does still seem rather convenient.
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*Rhetorical question of Eevee retracted
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FoS ash for voting nolynch. I think that not lynching D1 is a bad idea for town in this setup, hence a good idea for scum. Now in response to cuzz's response to the deflection: yes, none of us want to be lynched. however, since there are fewer scum than town, bieng lynched as scum is worse for scum than bieng lynched as town. Also as town attention isn't too bad. if people are reading well they will realize that you are town, this is not the case for scum. therefore scum is more likely to resort to deflection than town. Theorel: you are right that a few of shraeyes points are weak. some are strong though. strong enough that I think cuzz has the strongest case against him than anyone else. Cuzz: don't self-vote. regardless of your allignment I can't see how it can possibly help your faction. oh wait, I want to lynch you.... so go ahead, self-vote. ;)
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
1. ashersky - 113
2. Robz - 114
3. yuma - 47
4. Eevee - 93
5. Shraeye - 57
6. Cuzz - 84
7. Glooble - 30
8. Raerae - 55
9. liopoil - 27
10. mcmcsalot - 36
11. Jimmmmm - 91
12. theorel - 21
13. TheMunch - 53 (not including sparky's posts)
14. Dsell - 28
15. Galzria - 61
since noone seemed to follow up on this, thought I would. But I don't think there is much to gleam from it. Dsell probably isn't going to get lynched... theo as well, lio is new (not a reason to lynch someone, but still isn't really on my radar to lynch anyways...), I still have my vote on Glooble and am surprised how quickly that wagon disappeared... mcmc could be a possible lynch...
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munch, it's just how I play this game and take my reads. I've found this is the best way for me to find scum - try find town and vote for people who don't fit that bill. I'm just unable to make scum reads any other way.
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FoS ash for voting nolynch. I think that not lynching D1 is a bad idea for town in this setup, hence a good idea for scum. Now in response to cuzz's response to the deflection: yes, none of us want to be lynched. however, since there are fewer scum than town, bieng lynched as scum is worse for scum than bieng lynched as town. Also as town attention isn't too bad. if people are reading well they will realize that you are town, this is not the case for scum. therefore scum is more likely to resort to deflection than town. Theorel: you are right that a few of shraeyes points are weak. some are strong though. strong enough that I think cuzz has the strongest case against him than anyone else. Cuzz: don't self-vote. regardless of your allignment I can't see how it can possibly help your faction. oh wait, I want to lynch you.... so go ahead, self-vote. ;)
Did you vote? Did I miss it? Are you planning on voting? So many pages of stuff...
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Cuzz's responses aren't really convincing the people that think that he is scum that he is not scum and is doing so in a very wordsy fashion.
I feel that I have responded in detail to every damn accusation made of me. Theorel and Jimmmmm have also written lengthy responses to each of shraeye's large cases on me. If you cannot point to a specific accusation that you feel I've failed to address, or to a response of mine that you disagree with, then kindly pipe down about me being "unconvincing."
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Cuzz, I dont think I ever questioned whether or not you were thorough in your responses. Key word: you aren't CONVINCING people.
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Guys, this game is at 38 pages.
I don't want a mega day1. With ashersky's vote on Cuzz (I'm assuming that he thinks cuzz is at least slightly scummy if he was willing to put him to L-2 earlier tonight) he would be at L-1. Liopoil wants to lynch cuzz as well.
Just vote Cuzz, end day 1 now. Y'all can blame my insistence if things go badly, but i'm confident Cuzz is scum. I insist we end this day before we hit 40 pages.
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Seems to me that a lot of eevee's read are based off vibes, feeling, and gut, not real evidence. I don't think he's said much about why he thinks raerae is scummy, cuzz is towny, and I am scummy, among others.
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Liopoil is voting Cuzz that is if he hasn't moved his vote since the vote count a few pages ago.
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So Ashersky moved his vote and Raerae is on board, Cuzz is back at L-2. I'm gonna ask of the people not recently involved with the cuzz wagon (momsalon, yuma, dsell, jim, theorel, robz) to just state (even if they did say it and I missed it, I'm sorry), which category you fall into:
1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
4) My mind is not made up on Cuzz. I've found myself agreeing with him a fair bit, but shraeye's case on him seems reasonable. I'll make my mind up on whether or not I'll get on board after I've had time to re-read him (I'm at work, just for something different).
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Oh Liopoil is here. Wheres your vote? (Mods: can we get another vote count?)
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Liopoil is voting Cuzz that is if he hasn't moved his vote since the vote count a few pages ago.
Whoops, yeah, sorry. I missed that one.
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I like shraeye's case on Cuzz... in that I like how it is presented. I can get the jist of it from the headlines and have the opportunity to read further if I find the headline to be compelling or interesting.
As for the context of the case itself, I don't know. shraeye brings up some good points, but they are points that I have such a hard time with. Because all of it is based off interpretations.... and I guess that is the problem. Mafia is a game of interpretations... and I want something more solid! But we might not get anything more solid than this. But that doesn't stop me from wanting it and wanting to be hesitant about a case on someone!
PPE: I see now that Cuzz is getting close to a lynch? I don't think I am ready for this day to end. Has he even claimed?
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vote: cuzz There you go.
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Guys, this game is at 38 pages.
I don't want a mega day1. With ashersky's vote on Cuzz (I'm assuming that he thinks cuzz is at least slightly scummy if he was willing to put him to L-2 earlier tonight) he would be at L-1. Liopoil wants to lynch cuzz as well.
Just vote Cuzz, end day 1 now. Y'all can blame my insistence if things go badly, but i'm confident Cuzz is scum. I insist we end this day before we hit 40 pages.
Discard tunnel, acquire gold.
If you're town and you're really that confident then your reads suck. I've found you to be a pretty smart guy but I don't get why you think your case is so good. I'm not an objective party here, but theorel agreed and lots of people think he's town. Take the blinders off for a sec and read my response to your case and see how confident you still are.
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Cuzz, I dont think I ever questioned whether or not you were thorough in your responses. Key word: you aren't CONVINCING people.
It's easy to be unconvinced if you don't read what I spent a while writing.
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Seems to me that a lot of eevee's read are based off vibes, feeling, and gut, not real evidence. I don't think he's said much about why he thinks raerae is scummy, cuzz is towny, and I am scummy, among others.
Eevee has played like 6 games with me and can read me really freaking well.
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Ashersky is chock full of readception (and recently has been posting and phrasing arguments in a way that actually might have me convinced his scum and not just really wrong).
Eevee's vote on RaeRae is incredibly strange to me; maybe its just that hes following provocation from Ashersky (I know, readception of my own if that is actually the case but at least I'm trying to be honest with myself and its the reason I'm not voting for Eevee; I think my unease is more that you could replace Ashersky with anyone that is has a scum read on someone that few people share that says: Hey lets vote X and Eevee goes sure, especially when Eevee expressed other reads which he expanded to include Raerae after the vote?).
So Ashersky moved his vote and Raerae is on board, Cuzz is back at L-2. I'm gonna ask of the people not recently involved with the cuzz wagon (momsalon, yuma, dsell, jim, theorel, robz) to just state (even if they did say it and I missed it, I'm sorry), which category you fall into:
1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
So, just responding to the stuff about me here.
First, I've seen you use "readception" as a term often, and I still don't get it. I mean, I saw the movie, but it was difficult enough to understand. So I don't know how to respond to the readception accusation. Like, literally.
I'm still okay with lynching Cuzz. I'd give him a good 66.6% chance of flipping scum.
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My vote is on cuzz
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I'm not sure if I want to claim. I have to think about it. What does everyone else think?
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I'm finding myself wishing Robz were here...
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vote: no lynch
yuck!
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vote: no lynch
I read someone's thread on parity, but it didn't mention multiple scum teams.
We're clearly not getting a consensus on anyone going
What are you talking about, with the "we're not getting a consensus on anyone"?? Cuzz is at L-2, and if you kept your vote on him, that would be L-1 now. That sounds like very heavy consensus to me.
I know there are detractors, but if we slow down every single wagon because of detractors, we'll create a situation like Casino that went on forever until I purposely fell on the sword just to end the day.
You waited all of 3.5 hours between voting for Cuzz and declaring that we weren't getting consensus? I suppose between your vote and unvote we had Cuzz, theorel and Eevee expressing disinterest in the Cuzz case. But that's nowhere near the "I guess this is going nowhere" stage.
I think we're talking about the same thing. Look, here's you:
Guys, this game is at 38 pages.
I don't want a mega day1. With ashersky's vote on Cuzz (I'm assuming that he thinks cuzz is at least slightly scummy if he was willing to put him to L-2 earlier tonight) he would be at L-1. Liopoil wants to lynch cuzz as well.
Just vote Cuzz, end day 1 now. Y'all can blame my insistence if things go badly, but i'm confident Cuzz is scum. I insist we end this day before we hit 40 pages.
End day 1 now is what I'm saying. If people keep derailing lynches (Eevee), it won't end. I went back to Cuzz.
I think I've been clear that I prefer the raerae lynch all day. I also concede it ain't gonna happen, probably. So I switched to Cuzz. Then I had three people in a row blow up about it before raerae came in and joined up. So yeah, it looked derailed.
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I'm not sure if I want to claim. I have to think about it. What does everyone else think?
Claiming a PR saves for you for a night, I think.
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So we just need 1 more? Yuma, why do you NOT want a 38 page day 1 to be over?
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Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
don't. If you are town. Don't self-vote. Gah. I really hope you are joking, because we have been over this... barring a very few edge scenarios self-voting is never a pro-town thing to do. I will vote you.
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Anybody up for a post count? I'd say do it and lynch the biggest undercontributor. My best guess is Dsell, looking at the list.
That, or we choose one of {shraeye, cuzz, eevee, Jimmmmm} and go for it.
1. ashersky - 113
2. Robz - 114
3. yuma - 47
4. Eevee - 93
5. Shraeye - 57
6. Cuzz - 84
7. Glooble - 30
8. Raerae - 55
9. liopoil - 27
10. mcmcsalot - 36
11. Jimmmmm - 91
12. theorel - 21
13. TheMunch - 53 (not including sparky's posts)
14. Dsell - 28
15. Galzria - 61
since noone seemed to follow up on this, thought I would. But I don't think there is much to gleam from it. Dsell probably isn't going to get lynched... theo as well, lio is new (not a reason to lynch someone, but still isn't really on my radar to lynch anyways...), I still have my vote on Glooble and am surprised how quickly that wagon disappeared... mcmc could be a possible lynch...
From this list, I think ~50 is the optimum number to look at. So mom salon, glooble, liopoil, theo, dsell aren't close. Theo get's like double credit for every post from most of you, so take him out.
Mcmcsalot, Glooble, Liopoil, and Dsell are the "low content" lynches. Dsell is everyone's favorite IC. Liopoil gets the newbie pass. Mcmcsalot and Glooble are POE from this list.
Glooble has been townie in each of his few posts.
Mcmcsalot seems like the best "lurker" lynch. But really, he's not lurking that bad.
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Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
don't. If you are town. Don't self-vote. Gah. I really hope you are joking, because we have been over this... barring a very few edge scenarios self-voting is never a pro-town thing to do. I will vote you.
I was mostly kidding, but I feel so frustrated this game and kinda want to be out of it. I feel like ash did in XVI with the exception that I'm responding to every legitimate criticism of me and I don't get the sense that anyone is reading what I'm saying.
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Mods, vote count if possible, thanks.
Jimmmmm, yuma, I think either of you can hammer.
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Shraeye; while I do want to lynch cuzz I don't see the reason for all the hurry. cuzz: if you get to L-1 and someone says they'll hammer I dont see why you shouldn't claim... I also don't see why you should claim before that, unless you think people might quickhammer for whatever reason
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Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
don't. If you are town. Don't self-vote. Gah. I really hope you are joking, because we have been over this... barring a very few edge scenarios self-voting is never a pro-town thing to do. I will vote you.
I was mostly kidding, but I feel so frustrated this game and kinda want to be out of it. I feel like ash did in XVI with the exception that I'm responding to every legitimate criticism of me and I don't get the sense that anyone is reading what I'm saying.
Also I was town in XVI.
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Shraeye; while I do want to lynch cuzz I don't see the reason for all the hurry. cuzz: if you get to L-1 and someone says they'll hammer I dont see why you shouldn't claim... I also don't see why you should claim before that, unless you think people might quickhammer for whatever reason
What am I at anyway?
Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
don't. If you are town. Don't self-vote. Gah. I really hope you are joking, because we have been over this... barring a very few edge scenarios self-voting is never a pro-town thing to do. I will vote you.
I was mostly kidding, but I feel so frustrated this game and kinda want to be out of it. I feel like ash did in XVI with the exception that I'm responding to every legitimate criticism of me and I don't get the sense that anyone is reading what I'm saying.
Also I was town in XVI.
Ohhh i get it. Because I'm scum in this game. Good one.
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Shraeye; while I do want to lynch cuzz I don't see the reason for all the hurry. cuzz: if you get to L-1 and someone says they'll hammer I dont see why you shouldn't claim... I also don't see why you should claim before that, unless you think people might quickhammer for whatever reason
What am I at anyway?
Also considering voting for myself and letting yuma quick hammer because we do need to get this day over and I'm clearly going to be a huge distraction for the rest of the game at this point.
don't. If you are town. Don't self-vote. Gah. I really hope you are joking, because we have been over this... barring a very few edge scenarios self-voting is never a pro-town thing to do. I will vote you.
I was mostly kidding, but I feel so frustrated this game and kinda want to be out of it. I feel like ash did in XVI with the exception that I'm responding to every legitimate criticism of me and I don't get the sense that anyone is reading what I'm saying.
Also I was town in XVI.
Ohhh i get it. Because I'm scum in this game. Good one.
L-1, we think.
And I really, really, really was town that game. You can see the flip.
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
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Cuzz, feel like explaining your townread on Jimmmmm yet?
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Cuzz, feel like explaining your townread on Jimmmmm yet?
No
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
On the bolded line...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
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I will policy vote the next person who accuses someone of a scumslip.
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But I'm waiting for yuma to make the obvious defense himself this time!
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
On the bolded line...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them. And regardless of alignment they are still members of "the town" in this imaginary game world they live side by side with the rest of us and have a voice and a vote.
Oh... and Galz too hasn't weighed in yet
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
On the bolded line...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them. And regardless of alignment they are still members of "the town" in this imaginary game world they live side by side with the rest of us and have a voice and a vote.
Oh... and Galz too hasn't weighed in yet
By town you mean space station, and by imaginary you mean real.
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Cuzz, feel like explaining your townread on Jimmmmm yet?
No
Any interest in voting today? I see you still haven't done so.
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp. That's a fair statement, right?
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Also, sorry shraeye, page 40.
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp. That's a fair statement, right?
no! see points 1 and 2! and 4! I haven't come to a conclusion about Cuzz. We haven't gone into a should cuzz claim yet... and yes I would like to hear from the other players, but really I think that is the least important of the 4 reasons I voiced above.
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1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...
So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp. That's a fair statement, right?
no! see points 1 and 2! and 4! I haven't come to a conclusion about Cuzz. We haven't gone into a should cuzz claim yet... and yes I would like to hear from the other players, but really I think that is the least important of the 4 reasons I voiced above.
I suggested to Cuzz that he claim when he asked if he should. It'd be in his best interest, I think.
I think your points 1 and 2 are the same, in that it's just you not being 100% sure about Cuzz. That, to me, is townie, because only scum is 100% sure of anything (usually).
Since you are around, how do you feel about letting this day continue on? Do you feel any of the urgency that some of the others feel?
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I am here now. Just read through everything.
Cuzz should claim. I see no reason for him not to do so, being that he is at L-1, and is certainly the prevailing candidate for lynch at this point.
I myself am extremely conflicted on Cuzz. When theorel picked apart shraeye's case on Cuzz, I found myself agreeing (with theorel) on several of the points. I don't agree about the skimming joke thing, though. I do think that makes Cuzz more likely to be scum.
I'm also conflicted over Cuzz's reaction. On one hand, he's invoked a number of things--disinterest in the game, sick of defending himself, too defensive to have reads--that unfortunately make me think he's town. True frustration that leads a player to become resigned to his fate often indicated an impending town flip, I think. On the other hand, it's Cuzz. And I know for a fact that Cuzz is willing to say anything to not get lynched as scum. I do, I really do, roll my eyes whenever someone says "I'm thinking of self-voting, that's how frustrated I am." I always see that as a desperate scum play, although I'm not sure it actually is desperate scum play, or has been, historically.
I do agree the day should end soon though. My reads are getting muddled. Like, I used to have a huge townread on ashersky. But he's done a bunch of little things that made me go "hmm." Voting for No Lynch, for instance.
I guess I should just do a whole status update.
Dsell is town. Theorel still reads town to me. Glooble is scummy and not super helpful but his defense was really genuine so I actually do think he's town, strangely enough. So, big townread there for now. Jimm is in the townzone for doing so much hard work, and at this stage of the game, I have to take that as indication of a town player. Liopoil hasn't done anything to really raise my suspicions. Munschraerare, I don't know who's town there. A hunch says that one of them isn't--I think that person is "hiding" amidst the other two. I lean towniest on raerae, of them. I really don't know. Uh, I have like no feelings whatsoever toward invisiyuma. Galzria is on the scummier side for being like a complete non-factor this day. Mcmcsalot looks worse as the day goes on, but he wouldn't be my top choice. I think I have to trust my initial read on him for now. Eevee still reads fairly scummy to me. I might be tunneling, but literally every post he makes I mutter "scum" under my breath. Cuzz I've discussed.
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I don't know. I really don't have strong feelings on the likelihood of any one person being scum. I am kind of sold on lynching Cuzz or shraeye, since they have been so vocally against each other, so it's like MAYBE informational if one flips re:the other.
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Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?
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I do agree the day should end soon though. My reads are getting muddled. Like, I used to have a huge townread on ashersky. But he's done a bunch of little things that made me go "hmm." Voting for No Lynch, for instance.
So I guess I should comment on my no lynch vote. I'd have been very curious to see if anyone took me up on it. No one did, but plenty of you called me out for it.
I do not agree that no lynch is strictly better for scum. We have three cops, after all, and possibly doctors, etc. It's not RMM, but it isn't F11, either. That said, I don't support no lynch, and didn't at the time I voted for it. I was trying to make a point that continually derailing lynches was ridiculous, and not helpful. So unhelpful in fact, that we might as well vote: no lynch.
Robz continues to be a huge town read this game. We disagree on Eevee, whom I think is most likely town. At this point, Glooble and Theorel read the towniest of the low posters. I think yuma is looking very town as well.
Raerae continues to be my biggest scum read. Cuzz looks bad, whether he's scum or not, for withholding info, for not claiming after asking if he should and being told he should, and for his interactions with just about everyone. I think Dsell gets WAYYYYYYYYY too much towncred at this point in the game for one post so long ago--but I don't know if that makes him scummy, or all the Dsell lovers out there scummy.
TheMunch and Shraeye are the townier options from the munshraeray triumverate. Mom salon and liopoil are in the void.
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Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?
I think the problem with scum!Theorel is = scum!ehunt. As in, impossible to see until he wins the game.
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Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?
I think the problem with scum!Theorel is = scum!ehunt. As in, impossible to see until he wins the game.
But I actually have experience with scum!theorel. I was his scumpartner in M-VI, and as the mod, I watched him replace-in to a scum slot in M-XI.
I can't fully explain it, but he IS different. His big, substantive, theorizing posts are less substantive and theorizing. I don't know if he's aware of this or not. I think he has less presence as scum. Like, in this game, even though he is one of the less frequent posters, I know what he thinks about stuff. He communicates himself very clearly. He does this less well as scum.
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theorel, get an iso account already. It's too bloody hard to find your posts!
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Okay, I reread Cuzz as promised. And I'm really not sure what to do, because while I agree that we should bring this day to an end soon, I think Cuzz is probably Town. I don't buy the skimming case. It's very common for me to be at work and kind of following a game, and I'm not going to go back and re-read or do any in-depth analysis, but I'll jump in every now and then if I think I have something to add based on the last few posts. If I saw a joke that I wanted to make, I'd make it. So I don't see a problem there.
I see how his reply to mom salon about Dsell can be taken as scum-coaching, but it could just as easily be Town-coaching.
I admit I don't fully understand the "wrong reason" argument. But it was based on the Cuzz-Eevee interaction, in which I didn't get as much of a scum vibe from Eevee as Cuzz did, but I did agree with most of what Cuzz said.
I understand the deflection and follow-up post argument, and I can see the suspicion there, but I think they are close to the first two posts in the game that increase my suspicion of Cuzz.
Changing his opinion on me doesn't mean much, I don't think, and the scumslip thing was meh.
Now having said all that, I'm not too keen on the way he's been dealing with being this close to being lynched. I really don't think now is the time to keep your cards close to your chest. I'm hoping to see a claim and an answer to raerae's and anyone else's questions in the near future. Failing that, I don't think I'd be against lynching him for stalling if nothing else.
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So Ashersky moved his vote and Raerae is on board, Cuzz is back at L-2. I'm gonna ask of the people not recently involved with the cuzz wagon (momsalon, yuma, dsell, jim, theorel, robz) to just state (even if they did say it and I missed it, I'm sorry), which category you fall into:
1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.
Meh, I'd say 2 is most accurate. But there's a bit more to it.
1. I would still like others to weigh in (well, Galzria at least...is he already on this wagon? But mcmcsalot also would be good to hear from)
2. I don't think this day has gone on too long, though it's getting close.
3. I don't feel like the Cuzz-wagoners have given good reasons (or at least didn't when voting). That's the primary reason I called out the sheepers for what I following what I viewed as a poor case. At least a couple have re-weighed in.
4. It's really hard to vote for someone when their case is specifically pushed by my biggest scum-read, even if I do find them mildly scummy.
Basically, if it were Wednesday I would vote for Cuzz and end the day (well, I would announce intention and wait for a claim etc). But it isn't Wednesday, I don't yet feel overwhelmed by the amount of info from today, and shraeye seems like he might actually be a viable lynch in spite of the fact no one but me has voted for him (even if I'm taking a higher scum-read than necessary through tunneling he'd still be my preferred lynch for today, because it will be difficult for me to move on to others).
Let's try this:
Would everyone be willing to list a like-to-lynch list? Preferrably ordered. You can include a willing-to-lynch list also. I think several people have mentioned the set-of-four likely lynches for today. I don't want to find the "most agreeable lynch" here, I want to find the lynch that the most people actively want to happen. I think some people's votes have been scattered about, and I think that to an extent people are aligning behind a "loud" person rather than voting for the person they think is scummiest.
Personally, there aren't that many people I actively want to lynch, but there are several I'm willing to lynch.
Like to lynch: shraeye.
Willing to lynch (ordered): Eevee, Cuzz, mcmcsalot, Glooble, munch, raerae
These are all the people who read to me currently as either null or slightly scummy.
Everyone else I'd rather not lynch and would avoid helping to lynch except at deadline. I have at least a slight town-read on them.
Anyways, once that happens (plus claim presumably), depending on the situation I will either overcome my anti-shraeye bias and hammer Cuzz or we'll have another lynch we want to have happen more.
@Jimmmmm: I see that munch has also attained the enviable status of "Pearl Diver". I guess that means that there's no good way to search for me in "All" any more. Fine, I'll put in an iso name.
Also, re: ehunt-theo comparisons: the thought definitely crossed my mind: "ehunt won as scum, great here comes another string of mislynching/misvoting town theorel for being inscrutable" I just need to avoid lylo though, that's where I lose town the game because they think they can't read me as scum.
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"Odo to Captain Sisko. It looks like some of the station's population have got it in their heads to have some mob justice down here. They've got a noose hanging down from the upper level of the promenade and they're close to stringing someone up."
Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.
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@Jimmmmm: I see that munch has also attained the enviable status of "Pearl Diver". I guess that means that there's no good way to search for me in "All" any more. Fine, I'll put in an iso name.
Thanks, that'll be really helpful. The PD thing is what I've been doing, and it's SO painful.
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Okay, off the top of my head, I'd like to lynch shraeye or mom salon. I would not like to lynch Dsell, Galz or theorel. Anyone else I would seriously consider any cases/wagons on them. This includes Cuzz, who as I said I'd like more of a response from.
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Stopping in before work, but I absolutely feel this day has gone on too long at this point. As a point of reference, Theorel isn't even sure if I'm on Cuzz. Even though I was the first to pick up the case in him. The post linked below is still nearly 100% accurate for where I stand, and it was 300 posts ago. Basically, I feel like we're just spinning our wheels. There's a whole lot of posting, but nothing is being said. And it's making information analysis a hell of a lot harder for future days
Bwahaha. My co-mods in Noir are telling me to hurry up and lynch someone here so we can go to night.
I hate multiple scum team Mafia. I feel like a have a vast over abundance of town reads because I can't read disingenuous posting from anybody. If I absolutely had to pick someone right now it would be between four players, I think:
mcmcsalot, Jimmm, Shraeye and Cuzz.
Here's the thing. All of them have done things that make me feel "Hey, that's a townie thing to do." - But I need to remember that scum can have genuine reactions and play in this setup as well. Like... I feel as if I need to disregard my town reads in this setup because the things I normally rely on to indicate town play to me are going to be easily and NATURALLY replicated by scum. Does that make sense?
I'm not saying "Hey, let's lynch all my town reads!" Because that's just stupid - but I do think "townie behavior" is a lot more of a null tell. So I think I need to focus less on identifying things that make me feel a player if town, and more on the things that make me feel a player is scum.
And that brings me back to those 4.
Mcmcsalot: I happen to agree with Jimmm here, based solely on my own personal experiences of being a player who's first game was scum, and second was town. I know as well that I'm not alone in struggling to make that particular transition. I recognize mcmc's defense, and I recognize everybody is different. His defense reads townie to me. But this is something that I think would be easy and natural to fake here as well. So my suspicion remains.
Shraeye: I'm interested in hearing his rebuttal to Theorel's case. I'll admit that I've largely had a town read from him - but that in itself is unusual. I don't want this to become a "he's scummy because he's not scummy!", so I'll disregard that line of thought from any consideration. But his posting HAS been less than I'm used to, and his overall presence in the game is certainly much less than I'm used to. This isn't in keeping with either scum!Shraeye nor town!Shraeye meta's, so I think it needs to be noted for just what it is - unusual. And that for me is largely why he's on this list. His play has just felt off. Maybe it's just that he's busy IRL (he's indicated as such elsewhere), so of the four he's probably lowest on my list. Still, I would consider a lynch here.
Jimmm: I know. Lynching the vocal ones is bad. And vocal is town, right? This is the mindset I'm trying to break away from in this setup. I don't WANT to lynch the big talkers specifically, no. But I think it's a lot easier for people to replicate their town posting meta's as scum in this setup. It isn't something that should get undue town points. Yes, Jimmm has taken a lot of positions and made a lot of cases, and yes that's normally a town trait because it shows a genuine desire to scumhunt - but I don't think in this particular setup that makes him any townier. And if I set aside the "He's posting a lot of stuff" and actually look at the content of what he's posting, I'm left with an overall negative vibe.
Cuzz: I still feel that Cuzz opened the game by making a lot of posts about completely irrelevant things. And not like RVS irrelevant. It felt like he wanted to appear to be contributing meaningfully while not saying anything of value. His early vote on Eevee aside, all his posts were about what the opening post said the setup contained - and they were posted in and around the whole Dsell/Eevee thing. He completely avoided that whole debate while it was happening, even though he had his vote on Eevee from RVS, and was around and posting. It wasn't until much later when I called him out over it that he ever went back and addressed the issue - and that was two days later.
I unvoted Cuzz because I thought his defense read townie to me. I also felt the case that Eevee put together wasn't really much of a case. But as others have pointed out, defensiveness is both a town and scum trait. I'll admit I didn't at all like his OMGUS vote on Eevee. He obviously recognized how weak Eevee's case was, but he got all antsy about the vote. I think that as town he would be much more level headed - maybe voting Eevee eventually if Eevee remains stubborn on a bad case - but not OMGUS voting straight back and claiming he suddenly has good reason to do so. So I'm going to put my Vote: Cuzz back on. Of the four listed, he certainly seems the most "off" if I set aside some of the things that would normally make me lean town.
As for the rest, my biggest town reads are on Eevee and Theorel. Eevee because no matter which way I slice it this isn't a scum!Eevee that I would've ever seen. Could he be scum? Yeah, of course. I just really, really don't think so. Theorel I have a not of a weak spot for reading as town. Everything he posts resonates with me. I may not always share his conclusions, but I always feel like his arguments are made from a town perspective. The only time this wasn't the case, was in the dual-scum M-VI, where I identified him as WW very early D2.
Everyone else kind of falls into the middle. I would be happy to entertain a case on them, but nothing has stood out. Robz and I have had almost polar opposite reads all game, but I'm not sure if I should take from that "Robz is
scum", or "Robz and I really read things differently". Right now I'm leaning towards the latter. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.
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You know what would be a great end to the day? This (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5395.msg145280#msg145280).
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I don't particularly love any of the lynches (doesn't mean I don't want one to happen already, just that none of these feel slamdunk scum, effects of multiple scum teams I think), but would lynch: munch, shraeye, liopoil, raerae, glooble, mcmc
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Cuzz needs to claim, hes at L-1 theres no reason not to claim. I would be willing to lynch cuzz and that is it. Yes unvote my tunneling of jimm since post 195 has hopefully come to an end.
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Stopping in before work, but I absolutely feel this day has gone on too long at this point. As a point of reference, Theorel isn't even sure if I'm on Cuzz. Even though I was the first to pick up the case in him. The post linked below is still nearly 100% accurate for where I stand, and it was 300 posts ago. Basically, I feel like we're just spinning our wheels. There's a whole lot of posting, but nothing is being said. And it's making information analysis a hell of a lot harder for future days
Cuzz: I still feel that Cuzz opened the game by making a lot of posts about completely irrelevant things. And not like RVS irrelevant. It felt like he wanted to appear to be contributing meaningfully while not saying anything of value. His early vote on Eevee aside, all his posts were about what the opening post said the setup contained - and they were posted in and around the whole Dsell/Eevee thing. He completely avoided that whole debate while it was happening, even though he had his vote on Eevee from RVS, and was around and posting. It wasn't until much later when I called him out over it that he ever went back and addressed the issue - and that was two days later.
I unvoted Cuzz because I thought his defense read townie to me. I also felt the case that Eevee put together wasn't really much of a case. But as others have pointed out, defensiveness is both a town and scum trait. I'll admit I didn't at all like his OMGUS vote on Eevee. He obviously recognized how weak Eevee's case was, but he got all antsy about the vote. I think that as town he would be much more level headed - maybe voting Eevee eventually if Eevee remains stubborn on a bad case - but not OMGUS voting straight back and claiming he suddenly has good reason to do so. So I'm going to put my Vote: Cuzz back on. Of the four listed, he certainly seems the most "off" if I set aside some of the things that would normally make me lean town.
I will claim soon, but I want to address a few things first. Galz, I realize I forgot to respond to your case on me here, which I did mention that I disagreed with. "Opening the game by making posts about irrelevant things?" Really man, what does that even mean? How do we usually open the game? My first several posts were joke RVS, telling joth to fix the Station-aligned thing because I thought it would break the game (so, no, I did not "avoid that whole debate while it was happening"), and then correcting a number of people's misconceptions about the setup. If it's a week into D1 and stuff like that was all I'd said then it's scummy sure, but you're talking about 2 hours after thread opened when I was phone posting from the bus on the way to a bar on a Friday night.
Do people really agree with this case here, or are you guys just not reading carefully? Like again, I find myself getting annoyed just reading the details of these cases and seeing people go along with them with an "oh, sure sounds good that does seem scummy." You're using the "trying to look like he's contributing meaningfully without saying much" case which isn't a bad case, BUT you can't apply that to me or anyone within the first few hours after the game opened. That's just not fair.
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I can speak for anyone else but I find you scummy not because of one or more particular cases against you, it is because of how you have gone about defending yourself. Delaying your claim bothers me, is it a very helpful pr and you want to not have to claim, or is it because your role makes you look scummy, if it is a pr say that, your ill claim soon is very off to me.
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Missed the rest of the case there. I've gone on and on about the Eevee thing. Tl;dr: I disagree with the notion that you can see someone vote for the person who voted them recently, and just go "Oh, OMGUS so scummy" without reading the context. It's lazy and you're better than that Galz. My vote on Eevee was 100% a pressure vote. I didn't call it that at the time, because as discussed in other games, that take all the pressure off.
I didn't like the way Eevee backed up his vote on me. I wouldn't have liked it if he had done the same while voting for someone else. One of my problems with this game is that I pay more attention when I see my name, so I was more likely to notice that type of scummy voting behavior when directed at me. I was not getting "antsy" about the vote. I was pushing Eevee to defend his reads. The read in question happened to be a scumread on me, but that's not the key point. Man, even Eevee admitted that his vote on me was scummy at the time.
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Ok, I've slept on it and cooled off a bit, and guess there isn't much reason not to claim other than that I'm annoyed. The problem though is that my claim will not convince you that I'm town, because I'm the Changeling Cop and we've had plenty of discussion about how cops don't need to be town. But I am town.
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Also fwiw, regarding my "defensiveness" here's a PM I sent to joth a while ago when I was at like L-5:
Ugh I am so getting lynched today. Everyone is just pissing me off so much and people always interpret pissed off as scummy.
Here's Cuzz's first law of defensiveness: When under pressure, responses that sound like "oh s**t" are scum. Responses that sound like "f**k you" are town.
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Guys who think the Eevee-thing is a big deal. I DONT THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL. It's a part of my town read on Cuzz, I think he conducted himself in a towny manner in that situation.
I also think we probably want the Changeling Cop alive for now EVEN if he is scum so I'd advice all the nonvoters (wtf) and all the Cuzzvoters to think of a target. Post the lists theorel suggested you'd post or something.
I really really think Cuzz is a TERRIBLE lynch for today.
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.. unless there is another changeling cop. In that case Cuzz is totally scum outing the cop that could investigate his teammates I don't think that's likely though.
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(haven't read) changeling is SK, so no chance of that.
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(haven't read) changeling is SK, so no chance of that.
Uuh, DUMB. I guess I should go back to check which cop is which before posting. :)
Well, then I guess we do want to lynch him if we think he isn't town. So, while I still advice you to reconsider (because I DON'T think Cuzz is scum), lynching him isn't that HORRIBLE anymore because I could obviously be wrong and in that case we do wan't to lynch him because investigating for a SK is weak sauce.
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He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.
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Assuming no one counter claims Cuzz, okay, he is the Cop who can find the Serial Killer. He may or may not be town, and there may or may not be a Serial Killer.
Did Joth role the Cops randomly? I ask this because he was very careful to point out that the ALignment Cops could be scum themselves. What I'm saying is, I wonder if he intended for at least one Alignment Cop to be scum. In which case, Cuzz's claim would actually make him more likely to be scum.
I mean, I'm assuming that's not the case? I don't know if you can, or will, tell us, Joth. If Alignment Cops were rolled 100% randomly, then this truly tells us nothing about Cuzz's role, but we should probably lynch someone else.
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He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.
Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.
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He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.
Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.
Totally understand but we are at page 41 already and it doesn't strike me as protown to avoid the things he's avoiding.
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Another obvious thought: If there's no SK, Cuzz will probably survive the night. The scum teams don't want to waste a kill on him--they need to hope to hit the other cops. If Cuzz does die, A) We know his Alignment, B) There's probably a Serial Killer.
I actually don't think there's a ton of room for WIFOM here. Like, a non-SK scum-team could shoot Cuzz to make us think we're dealing with an SK, but I don't think that's a big upside for them, because they miss out on taking a shot at the cop who investigates their team.
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Now who would I lynch:
shraeye:
Theorel pointed out much better than I did why about 2/3 of shraeye's case on me was total junk. Shraeye got a lot of people on board, though so the case had that effect. But I agree with theorel that it looked like a lot of extra filler to make the case seem airtight. About half of it was no more than "Here's another thing Cuzz said." He then kept saying things about how he was becoming "super sure" that I was scum. Sorry, man. You cannot be certain about anything D1. It's just not allowed in this game. So you're either lying scum, or WAY out of line overconfident and wrong town. Shraeye being "super sure" really rubs me the wrong way here.
ash:
Several things recently really flipped him from townread to scumread pretty quickly.
This quote:
Cuzz's frustration in his response to the shraeye case is something I can relate to. I really can. I also feel like Cuzz has been dying fairly early in recent games, so that can add to the frustration.
Still, I think he's a good lynch option today.
to me sounds like "yeah he's probably town, but lets lynch him anyway." Scum can't know who's town, but this could be ash knowing that I'm not on his team and therefore concluding I'm probably town.
The next two posts combined:
Okay, vote: Cuzz
This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.
That's L-2.
Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.
Ash sheeps shraeye in the laziest way possible (what interactions with which others? what parts of shraeye's case?), and then IMMEDIATELY tried to make sure all the blame will head to shraeye if and when I flip town. It's again like he's anticipating I will flip town, and sorry man, but you do not get off scot free for lynching a townie just because someone else did all the legwork.
Two more things: ash votes nolynch for some reason, and also fails to understand why Dsell should be a top townread and tries to make me sound anti-town for saying so. Also puts words in my mouth saying that I made Dsell an IC, which I took care not to imply.
This quote too:
Cuzz, who are you willing to sheep at this point?
I dunno if it's helpful to answer this right now. If I say a few names here and one of them turns out to be scum then they can use that to manipulate my vote.
That's a good and fair answer.
and this one
@Cuzz -- yeah, probably. Still, at least I feel your pain, right?
both sound kinda like he knows I'm town. It's like "yeah man, I'm on your side. But I still want to lynch you."
Glooble:
Lurked hard, came back with an emotional defense when the wagon built, but yuma made a good point that the wagon probably dissolved too quickly, and the defense would be quite easy to fake as scum. Also his sheep vote of shraeye is weak and does not contribute anything to the case or refer to any particularly convincing part of it.
Shraeye's analysis is extremely convincing to me.
Vote: Cuzz
Also, the lurking thing again. Has contributed more only since being called out for lurking.
Galz:
Just don't get usual super pro-town Galz here. I don't love this argument, because it's the same one made against Volt in XVI which I knew was bunk at the time and felt bad about making, but it's still a bad feeling. And his case on me about my early D1 posts is just really bad. Again, such things jump out to me and I will use them as evidence all I want, omgus or not.
Others:
I get bad vibes from Munch and mcmc, in that they're kind of hiding in the background a bit. Munch is usually more vocal, so it especially seems out of character there. I'm not sure what to expect from mcmc so not as sure there.
And liopoil is lurking like crazy now, and needs to get some contribution on the table.
raerae is getting a bit bloodthirsty toward me right now, but I dunno if it makes her scum. I think she's probably just got blinders on and can't let go of her thought that I'm scum. I just feel like everything I say is sending her into a rage.
Anyway, most substantial case above is obvious. Vote: ashersky
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Another obvious thought: If there's no SK, Cuzz will probably survive the night. The scum teams don't want to waste a kill on him--they need to hope to hit the other cops. If Cuzz does die, A) We know his Alignment, B) There's probably a Serial Killer.
I actually don't think there's a ton of room for WIFOM here. Like, a non-SK scum-team could shoot Cuzz to make us think we're dealing with an SK, but I don't think that's a big upside for them, because they miss out on taking a shot at the cop who investigates their team.
This is a good point. The WIFOM thing was part of why I was hesitant to claim because I thought non-SK scum would want to kill me anyway. But you're right that there might not be too big an upside. It would just screw with town's knowledge of the setup, though, which is never a terrible thing for scum to do.
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@Cuzz, of your cases above, I think the ashersky thing has merit. I also had a big townread on ashersky, but I can't ignore his very scummy comments about you, and how your flip would make shraeye look bad. Your flip (if you flipped town) makes the people who never did any work toward understanding you, who sheeped the vote on you half-heartedly, or who said they had mild town-reads on you but voted you anyway... those are the people who look scummy. And that definitely includes Ash.
(Now, it's true your claim isn't the same thing as you actually flipping town.)
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On the other hand, I believe ashersky was the tip tip top of the post count, or just below me, or something. Super active people are more likely town than scum.
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He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.
Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.
Totally understand but we are at page 41 already and it doesn't strike me as protown to avoid the things he's avoiding.
I honestly agree with Raerae here. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I feel like so little has changed over the past ~300 posts (probably more), that all we're doing is mucking up the water for good reads on future days no matter who we end up lynching, and regardless of what they flip.
On top of that, Cuzz feels like he's digging in his heels making every last pro-town thing he could do take an extra 3 pages. Town read on Jimmm? "Nope, not saying." Fully fleshed out reads for people to look back on? "Jimmm is town, but I won't say why." Claim before lynch? "Nah, I think not."
Yeah, he just claimed, but he's dragging on instead of actively helping, and it feels like he's just trying to wait the clock out until people get bored of his wagon and move on. It's very unhelpful town play at BEST, and as you yourself noted Robz, you know full well that Cuzz will do anything in his power to get out of a lynch when scum.
Furthermore, I find his latest defense of my initial case incredibly underwhelming. "How dare you make a read on someone within the first hundred posts of a game? I expect better of you!" - Honestly, trying to guilt me into unvoting isn't going to work. And on top of that, I treat RVS with the same level of scrutiny as any other time in the game. Scum can be caught there just as "easily" as anywhere.
On top of that, I encourage everybody to actually go back and read those first few pages. Cuzz's defense of "Well, the game was only a few hours old so none of that is relevant" is bunk. RVS didn't last 1/10 what it usually does because of Eevee/Dsell. I've never scrutinized Cuzz over his joke RVS vote on Eevee - but it's his 7 posts after when -yes, just a few hours into the game- there was REAL content to comment on, instead of talking about the setup information posted in post #1. His "Joth should fix this" was hardly a contribution to the debate, and didn't take any side whatsoever. Instead he kept his mouth closed on the actual issue until more than a day later, when it was mostly resolved and he could judge where everybody stood.
He's still absolutely my top scum read, and I honestly feel that dragging the day on even longer is only going to bedetrimental to our ability to put ANY information gained to any use.
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On the other hand, I believe ashersky was the tip tip top of the post count, or just below me, or something. Super active people are more likely town than scum.
That, and ashersky surely tends to look very scummy as town.
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Cuzz, I'm not upset at all. I am only confused. What you're saying isn't convincing me one way or another but what you refuse to say is saying a great deal. Are you somehow in cahoots with Jimmmmm? Is that why you'll only tell us you believe he's town?
You finally voted and with reasonable reason so I'm happy with that. It did take you a while though and isn't based on anything prior to this vote surge so...meh.
All, I am pushing for cuzz's lynch. Fully admit that. This day needs to end and, like it or not, shraeye's case has been the best one presented today. Does it have some weak spots? Yes. But what kind of fool-proof case can you look for D1? If anybody can present something more solid, please do. And that was a very serious question, guys, D1 cases are usually weakish, right? Why do we continue to say this case is weak when nothing stronger has been brought forth?
Ok, done for now since lunch is over, have to get back to work.
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Cuzz, I'm not upset at all. I am only confused. What you're saying isn't convincing me one way or another but what you refuse to say is saying a great deal. Are you somehow in cahoots with Jimmmmm? Is that why you'll only tell us you believe he's town?
You finally voted and with reasonable reason so I'm happy with that. It did take you a while though and isn't based on anything prior to this vote surge so...meh.
All, I am pushing for cuzz's lynch. Fully admit that. This day needs to end and, like it or not, shraeye's case has been the best one presented today. Does it have some weak spots? Yes. But what kind of fool-proof case can you look for D1? If anybody can present something more solid, please do. And that was a very serious question, guys, D1 cases are usually weakish, right? Why do we continue to say this case is weak when nothing stronger has been brought forth?
Ok, done for now since lunch is over, have to get back to work.
I agree that the case was weak, but contained enough merit to settle for Cuzz's lynch, taking into account his medium post count, only appearing early on to make a joke, withholding, etc. But that was before his claim. All things being equal, we want the cops alive. And if we do leave Cuzz alive, the nightkills are going to give us an uncommon amount of likely-accurate information about Cuzz and the scumteams.
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To answer Robz setup question: cop alignment was rolled randomly like everyone else's (exception: IC variant if any). If a cop rolled the same alignment as they investigate for, I re-rolled them. So all three cops could be scum, all could be town, or some could be scum and some could be town.
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I think theorel's case on shraeye was/is stronger than shraeye's case on Cuzz. The fact that I think Cuzz is towny might make me a bit biased here though.
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The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.
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The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.
Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.
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The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.
Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.
Is it more pleasant in this game?
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The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.
Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.
Is it more pleasant in this game?
I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.
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The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.
Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.
Is it more pleasant in this game?
I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.
No, you!
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I don't see how keeping cuzz alive because he is the sk cop is smart. He is still just as likely as before to be scum and all he does is investigate one person a night to look for an sk that might not even be there?
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Though will we know if there's an sk or two scum teams after tonight? If so then I could see keeping him alive till we figure out if there's an sk and re-open the discussion.
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Kill flavor will not differentiate between scum teams.
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Just thinking out loud, if there is an sk his or her vote is most likely already on cuzz. Wouldn't they rather kill cuzz in the day and prevent us from all the information we would gain at night?
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Though will we know if there's an sk or two scum teams after tonight? If so then I could see keeping him alive till we figure out if there's an sk and re-open the discussion.
We will be much, much closer to knowing this if we keep Cuzz alive.
Look, I could see still lynching Cuzz, despite his claim, if the case against him was a slamdunk. It's not. At best, it's an acceptable-ish Day 1 case... against a now-confirmed (since no one counter-claimed) cop.
I would like to hear from shraeye. What do you think about Cuzz now?
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Just thinking out loud, if there is an sk his or her vote is most likely already on cuzz. Wouldn't they rather kill cuzz in the day and prevent us from all the information we would gain at night?
The bolded part is false. No one knew Cuzz was the SK cop until he said so. No one has moved their vote to Cuzz since his claim. Therefore, no one currently voting Cuzz knew he was the SK cop when they cast that vote. Therefore, the Serial Killer could not have been voting for Cuzz because Cuzz is the SK cop.
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Just thinking out loud, if there is an sk his or her vote is most likely already on cuzz. Wouldn't they rather kill cuzz in the day and prevent us from all the information we would gain at night?
The bolded part is false. No one knew Cuzz was the SK cop until he said so. No one has moved their vote to Cuzz since his claim. Therefore, no one currently voting Cuzz knew he was the SK cop when they cast that vote. Therefore, the Serial Killer could not have been voting for Cuzz because Cuzz is the SK cop.
What I'm saying is, the SK may or may not be voting for Cuzz, but that has nothing to do with Cuzz being the SK cop. Now, anyone who votes Cuzz from this point on, it could be because that person is SK.
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I would still like to lynch Cuzz. I agree with mcmc in 2^10.
@Robz: If there is a SK and he wasn't voting for Cuzz, why wouldn't he have hammered when Cuzz claimed SK Cop?
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@Robz: If there is a SK and he wasn't voting for Cuzz, why wouldn't he have hammered when Cuzz claimed SK Cop?
This is exactly what I meant.
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I would still like to lynch Cuzz. I agree with mcmc in 2^10.
@Robz: If there is a SK and he wasn't voting for Cuzz, why wouldn't he have hammered when Cuzz claimed SK Cop?
The Serial Killer would have to be praying Cuzz flipped scum, or else I'd be pretty suspicious of whoever quickhammered the guy who claimed SK Cop.
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I mean you're correct that the Serial Killer, more than anyone else, wants to lynch Cuzz. I don't think that's an overriding enough concern to do something really scummy-seeming, like quickhammering a claimed cop.
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There are a few people who have indicated that they would hammer. I dont think hammering in that way is the most obvious. Look at me hammering the doctor in XV. Granted I was town and the town members that did notice kept pretty hush about it for good reason but I think that its an argument that the SK could pull off if they did hammer.
PPE: Claimed cop that very well could be still be scum.
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Anyone who shifts their vote to Cuzz in the wake of his claim is more likely to be the SK. Anyone who keeps their vote on Cuzz in the wake of his claim is also more likely to be SK. That ends up encompassing a whole bunch of people, though.
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At this point, I would unvote and be the hammerer.
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At this point, I would unvote and be the hammerer.
Why would you do that? Why do you want to be the hammerer?
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Anyone who shifts their vote to Cuzz in the wake of his claim is more likely to be the SK. Anyone who keeps their vote on Cuzz in the wake of his claim is also more likely to be SK. That ends up encompassing a whole bunch of people, though.
My claim has persuaded precisely no one to unvote, so that's 7 people there.
Are we still gonna lynch me today? If not, we should start a new wagon or something. Otherwise I'll be happy to self-hammer as my role is weak and my lynch will be pretty informational at this juncture.
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At this point, I would unvote and be the hammerer.
Why would you do that? Why do you want to be the hammerer?
I don't get what you're saying, I guess. You're already voting for Cuzz. You can't hammer him unless someone else is going to vote for him. Why not let that person be the hammerer? WHy do you want to hammer?
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At this point, I would unvote and be the hammerer.
Why would you do that? Why do you want to be the hammerer?
I don't get what you're saying, I guess. You're already voting for Cuzz. You can't hammer him unless someone else is going to vote for him. Why not let that person be the hammerer? WHy do you want to hammer?
Does yuma keep "hammered claimed town PR" stats?
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Cause its page 42. I've been on cuzz for 600 posts now and I would like the day to end. All your post 1036 might have done is make some scared towny that might have hammered afraid to do so and will only really keep the day going. I'm not prepared to continue this day.
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Anyone who shifts their vote to Cuzz in the wake of his claim is more likely to be the SK. Anyone who keeps their vote on Cuzz in the wake of his claim is also more likely to be SK. That ends up encompassing a whole bunch of people, though.
My claim has persuaded precisely no one to unvote, so that's 7 people there.
Are we still gonna lynch me today? If not, we should start a new wagon or something. Otherwise I'll be happy to self-hammer as my role is weak and my lynch will be pretty informational at this juncture.
Why would you want to self-hammer?
PPE: What does this have to do with yuma?
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At this point, I would unvote and be the hammerer.
Why would you do that? Why do you want to be the hammerer?
I don't get what you're saying, I guess. You're already voting for Cuzz. You can't hammer him unless someone else is going to vote for him. Why not let that person be the hammerer? WHy do you want to hammer?
Does yuma keep "hammered claimed town PR" stats?
I hope so. Worked to my advantage in XV <3
I'm actually kind of hopeful that Cuzz is actually lying. The real SK cop is sitting back (or isn't currently online/posting) knowing that Cuzz is almost sure to get lynched anyway. Thus the real SK cop wouldn't have to out himself, we're just going to lynch the false claim no matter what he says.
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What I am saying is:
No counterclaim =/= Cuzz is telling the truth.
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That would be the stupidest claim ever.
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I think the odds of Cuzz deciding to fakeclaim a PR that he knew would get counter-claimed is like, less than 1%.
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Anyone who shifts their vote to Cuzz in the wake of his claim is more likely to be the SK. Anyone who keeps their vote on Cuzz in the wake of his claim is also more likely to be SK. That ends up encompassing a whole bunch of people, though.
My claim has persuaded precisely no one to unvote, so that's 7 people there.
Are we still gonna lynch me today? If not, we should start a new wagon or something. Otherwise I'll be happy to self-hammer as my role is weak and my lynch will be pretty informational at this juncture.
Why would you want to self-hammer?
PPE: What does this have to do with yuma?
We're going to lynch someone today. That person will likely be town anyway. I'm all anyone has talked about today so there will be lots to analyze when I flip town. Another wagon will be more of the "well we needed to lynch someone so don't blame me for my vote" type on D2 which will be frustrating to analyze. Plus I either get killed tonight, or if not we spend a lot more time on D2 rehashing the "should we lynch Cuzz" discussion, which will be even more of a waste of time then than it is now.
Plus I'm basically a gimped FBI agent who doesn't even know if there's a serial killer in the game. Not a huge loss.
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Munch really wants me dead, huh?
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I really want the day to end. I've been voting for you for over 20 pages. You figure out what that means.
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Everyone in this game is a pr. Anyone who gets to L -1 will make a claim which will tell us absolutely nothing because roles are assigned independently of alignment. Cuzzs claim tells us nothing. It does tell the sk who to kill, unless we lynch him. If we start another wagon, that person will also claim a power role which tells us nothing and scum something. Lynching Cuzz now is the option that gives the scum teams the smallest amount of useful information.
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God, Munching is pushing some terrible arguments to get Cuzz lynched.
Cuzz offering to selfhammer just to end it just aogkoajgpoajpagj, no bankable deadlines, absolutely no reason to do that no, no no no.
Glooble, WHAT Cuzz claimed is still a piece of information though. Cuzz would NEVER claim the fbi-agent if he really wasn't one. He could claim say the cop that investigates his faction if he was a mafia roleblocker, or a doctor, or whatever. Not a role we know there to be exactly one of that could be scum or town and is arguably the weakest role in the entire game So WHAT he claimed clearly is much much more informational than your post made it seem.
That being said, it doesn't change all that much. If you still think he is scum, I think you should want to lynch him. I don't, but convincing enough people of any of my targets seems very hard at this point, which makes me sad.
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I believe that cuzz is probably the changeling cop. I still think we should lynch him. I do not however, like shraeye and Munch are saying, think that we should do it just to end the day. I agree this long day isn't terribly helpful, but it can't hurt. If someone hammers it should be because they think cuzz is the most likely one of us to be scum, not because they just want to end it.
Also, lynching the changeling cop doesn't hurt us much. He can only be helpful if
a) there is a SK
b) he isn't nightkilled
c) he is lucky enough to actually hit the SK.
there is a 2/3 chance there is a SK. Assuming we lynch someone else there are 13 potential SKs for him to target. 2/3x1/13= 2/39. Of course, there's also the potential for him to survive another night, in which he would have slightly better odds. We can also subtract the possibility that we lynch the SK. (this is all assuming we don't lynch cuzz.)
So even if he is town, he likely is one of the least helpful station-members, and so would be less risky to lynch.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
It's quite incredible how similar my list of people I'd lynch and your lynch wagon is. I dont think I have an explicit town read on anyone in that list.
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I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip.
My read on raerae is null. TheMunch and liopiol I would say are a little bit scummy. Ashersky I keep going back and forth on. I seem to recal in the other game I played with him I thought he was scum the whole time and he ended up being town. (No, I can't remember what game that was.)
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Galz and raerae I think are town. Leening scum on ash, but he is confusing. munch, glooble, and shraeye I lean town, but munch and shraeye I think are pushing the wagon too hard, in a scummy way.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
It's quite incredible how similar my list of people I'd lynch and your lynch wagon is. I dont think I have an explicit town read on anyone in that list.
The wagon is a pretty scummy bunch. Towniest is Glooble, for his one reaction that I thought was so town. Order of town to scum: Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky, Galzria, shraeye, Munch.
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For what it's worth, I think we have to take into the account that Cuzz has been at L-1 forever, and no one has hammered. That's generally a scum trait.
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scum trait of who? cuzz? the people not on the wagon? the people on the wagon? and why?
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For what it's worth, I think we have to take into the account that Cuzz has been at L-1 forever, and no one has hammered. That's generally a scum trait.
Or you could answer the damn question ash.
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scum trait of who? cuzz? the people not on the wagon? the people on the wagon? and why?
Scum trait indicating that Cuzz is scum.
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....because he has buddies who don't want to hammer?
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....because he has buddies who don't want to hammer?
Yes.
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wouldn't his buddies want to hammer and distance themselves from him. I mean I know its debatable whether or not he will be lynched now but earlier, I was a bit behind and assumed cuzz was going to be lynched by the time I caught up.
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I don't see scum buddies wanting to hold on to such a sinking ship
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I don't see scum buddies wanting to hold on to such a sinking ship
But it's SO BAD to lose a scumbuddy Day 1. So it depends whether you think his lynch was a guarantee or not. You said you thought it was happening for sure, but it hasn't happened. You haven't hammered him, for instance. See what I mean?
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It's less of a factor in multiball anyways. His supposed scum partners make up for a smaller portion of the entire town, and there is the whole other scum team (probably on his wagon already) who would be more than willing to hammer him if they thought he had a good chance of flipping scum.
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It's less of a factor in multiball anyways. His supposed scum partners make up for a smaller portion of the entire town, and there is the whole other scum team (probably on his wagon already) who would be more than willing to hammer him if they thought he had a good chance of flipping scum.
Yeah, I mean that's true. Cuzz sitting at L-1 and not getting hammered shouldn't be viewed as MAJOR evidence that he's scum.
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Yeah yeah Cuzz might be scum, he might not be, we've been over this. I really want everyone to be on record with an answer to my question before seeing my flip.
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For what it's worth, I think we have to take into the account that Cuzz has been at L-1 forever, and no one has hammered. That's generally a scum trait.
Or you could answer the damn question ash.
Dude, chill. Who was I voting for for 90% of this game? She's on your wagon. She's clearly the scummiest on your wagon, to me.
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For what it's worth, I think we have to take into the account that Cuzz has been at L-1 forever, and no one has hammered. That's generally a scum trait.
Or you could answer the damn question ash.
Dude, chill. Who was I voting for for 90% of this game? She's on your wagon. She's clearly the scummiest on your wagon, to me.
I don't mean to be unchill, but that wasn't the question. Do you have a strong town read on anyone there?
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Also:
Say you're on a scum team, and cuzz isn't on it. There are fewer scum for you to hunt for than everyone else. As it is jumping on a wagon is a risk because people on a wagon of someone who flips town gets suspected. If you are on another scum team the person who you're voting for is more likely to be town than if you are town. This means people who are scum should be more careful when voting for someone who is likely going to be lynched. So not only are the people on cuzz's team likely not on the wagon, but the people who are scum but not on his team likely aren't as well. there's still guaranteed to be around 5 town not voting cuzz though....
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Alright intent to hammer when everyone answers his question,
I feel like raerae and galz are town mainly because of there play style comparative to ZMIX, no read on the munch and glooble, very muddled read on shraeye and liopoil I have felt scummy and towny about them recently, and I get scum vibes from ash due to his responses recently and I previously found him scummy.
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For what it's worth, I think we have to take into the account that Cuzz has been at L-1 forever, and no one has hammered. That's generally a scum trait.
Or you could answer the damn question ash.
Dude, chill. Who was I voting for for 90% of this game? She's on your wagon. She's clearly the scummiest on your wagon, to me.
I don't mean to be unchill, but that wasn't the question. Do you have a strong town read on anyone there?
Galz, Glooble.
Robz, if he hammers.
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Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Strong town read? Shraeye. Opposite of a strong town read? Ash.
As for everyone else, Glooble hasn't said enough for me to have much of an opinion cause his emotional appeal doesn't count for anything in my book. Galz is interesting. Raerae is raerae.
Mcmc can hammer when he wants.
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I think galz, shraeye, and raerae haven't answered the question yet. neither have many people not on the wagon.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Ok. I'm not caught up. But in case the day does end soon, I don't have a strong townread on any of these people. Shraeye probably comes the closest, and isn't he pushing your case the hardest? From what I remember, the case did not look bad. But man I need to go back and read.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Raerae is the only person I read as town from that list. I've stated in the past that her play this game reminds me very strongly of her play in the last blitz game (IX). Likewise the only scum(ish) read I have is from Shraeye, because despite his larger post style this game, I just don't feel he's been as memorable or as "present" as any game I've ever seen him in. But as I've mentioned, that would be a really weak ass case to push against somebody. Still, worth noting.
Off-wagon my biggest town read is, and is likely to remain, Eevee. It's probably become the reverse of confirmation bias (or whatever you want to call it), but I've completely convinced myself that this is unlike any scum!Eevee I've ever seen, and there are just too many pieces that read town to me. I don't see myself voting to lynch him without a major scum-slip, or some other damning piece of evidence - certainly a case a he'll of a lot stronger than ANYTHING that's been made today. Robz can sit there and call it bad play all he wants, but I'm like, 95% confident Eevee is town.
Theorel has also read very much like Town!Theorel to me, although putting my finger on exactly why would be difficult, and I've no disillusions that scum!Theorel could probably play circles attend me (except back in M-VI where I read him as scum particularly well. But I think he's grown as a player and would be much harder to pin these days).
Scum off wagon is a tossup between Jimmm and mcmc. If somehow they're both scum, I doubt they're on the same team. I don't see scum!Jimmm pushing for scum!mcmc the way he did today if they're teammates.
Anybody and everybody else falls into the vastly muddled middle ground. I wouldn't oppose the lynch of them, but would need to really chew over any case presented before making a decision to lynch them.
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
Where's shraeye anyway, to weigh in? He's got the biggest case on Cuzz.
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
This is what I'm talking about sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae... But really I dislike this post as it is as I said unhelpful, also coming directly after two people said your playing like your meta a post like this is off putting. You have left my list of strong town reads.
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
Where's shraeye anyway, to weigh in? He's got the biggest case on Cuzz.
No idea. I'm back home now so I can't keep tabs on that slippery devil anymore.
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
This is what I'm talking about sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae... But really I dislike this post as it is as I said unhelpful, also coming directly after two people said your playing like your meta a post like this is off putting. You have left my list of strong town reads.
I will answer that question. I don't have a problem with it at all. I do, however, have a problem with somebody who has consistently avoided a question which should be very easy to answer. So when he demands I answer a question when he won't do the same, I must admit I am disinclined to acquiesce to his request.
Why do most of you keep avoiding the fact that he's avoided explaining his town read on Jimmmmm? Am I the only one who finds that shady?
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I will answer that question. I don't have a problem with it at all. I do, however, have a problem with somebody who has consistently avoided a question which should be very easy to answer. So when he demands I answer a question when he won't do the same, I must admit I am disinclined to acquiesce to his request.
Why do most of you keep avoiding the fact that he's avoided explaining his town read on Jimmmmm? Am I the only one who finds that shady?
This is the kind of post that is helpfull, I agree with everything you've said here and is part of the reason with an intent to hammer I have not done so yet.
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I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Wait, wait, wait...found another issue with beyond the stubborn "he didn't answer my question so I'm not answering his." He didn't do this himself until post #1009 and then he basically said everybody on his wagon is scum or could be. Maybe I'm being paranoid here but for somebody who hasn't told town anything all game I don't feel like he's a good position to be commanding us around. I don't feel comfortable telling his potential scumbuddies who I think is town. That's strange, right? If he is scum we just told his friends where they rank in our eyes. Robz, you're actually striking cords with me this game, am I totally off my rocker with this?
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
This is what I'm talking about sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae... But really I dislike this post as it is as I said unhelpful, also coming directly after two people said your playing like your meta a post like this is off putting. You have left my list of strong town reads.
I will answer that question. I don't have a problem with it at all. I do, however, have a problem with somebody who has consistently avoided a question which should be very easy to answer. So when he demands I answer a question when he won't do the same, I must admit I am disinclined to acquiesce to his request.
Why do most of you keep avoiding the fact that he's avoided explaining his town read on Jimmmmm? Am I the only one who finds that shady?
BAH
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I refuse to answer cuzz's question until he answers mine. Tit for tat, buddy.
This is what I'm talking about sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae... But really I dislike this post as it is as I said unhelpful, also coming directly after two people said your playing like your meta a post like this is off putting. You have left my list of strong town reads.
I will answer that question. I don't have a problem with it at all. I do, however, have a problem with somebody who has consistently avoided a question which should be very easy to answer. So when he demands I answer a question when he won't do the same, I must admit I am disinclined to acquiesce to his request.
Why do most of you keep avoiding the fact that he's avoided explaining his town read on Jimmmmm? Am I the only one who finds that shady?
BAH
Use your words, Munch!
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You did a thing. With the references. I love references.
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I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Wait, wait, wait...found another issue with beyond the stubborn "he didn't answer my question so I'm not answering his." He didn't do this himself until post #1009 and then he basically said everybody on his wagon is scum or could be. Maybe I'm being paranoid here but for somebody who hasn't told town anything all game I don't feel like he's a good position to be commanding us around. I don't feel comfortable telling his potential scumbuddies who I think is town. That's strange, right? If he is scum we just told his friends where they rank in our eyes. Robz, you're actually striking cords with me this game, am I totally off my rocker with this?
Raerae, everything you say in game is "telling his potential scumbuddies" something. I mean, everyone is reading. So withholding info/opinions/etc. isn't helpful if you are always defaulting to that. Some times we don't say things because it can hurt the town. Giving reads isn't one of those things. It's just a fundamental part of the game.
If Cuzz is scum, he knows which teammates are on his wagon. But they need to find the other scum team too. So reads do help his scummates, but overall helps town more.
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You did a thing. With the references. I love references.
And Orlando Bloom, I'm sure.
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I'm tired of this day, starting when we hit page 40, I hate long D1s. There's a point where more information actually makes it HARDER to figure any shit out tomorrow. I just skimmed through the last four pages and have a few things to say.
I honestly agree with Raerae here. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I feel like so little has changed over the past ~300 posts (probably more), that all we're doing is mucking up the water for good reads on future days no matter who we end up lynching, and regardless of what they flip.
On top of that, Cuzz feels like he's digging in his heels making every last pro-town thing he could do take an extra 3 pages. Town read on Jimmm? "Nope, not saying." Fully fleshed out reads for people to look back on? "Jimmm is town, but I won't say why." Claim before lynch? "Nah, I think not."
Yeah, he just claimed, but he's dragging on instead of actively helping, and it feels like he's just trying to wait the clock out until people get bored of his wagon and move on. It's very unhelpful town play at BEST, and as you yourself noted Robz, you know full well that Cuzz will do anything in his power to get out of a lynch when scum.
Furthermore, I find his latest defense of my initial case incredibly underwhelming. "How dare you make a read on someone within the first hundred posts of a game? I expect better of you!" - Honestly, trying to guilt me into unvoting isn't going to work. And on top of that, I treat RVS with the same level of scrutiny as any other time in the game. Scum can be caught there just as "easily" as anywhere.
I agree with a lot of this; very little has changed in the last few hundred posts. It's all been white noise, and it's made my reads less focused and harder to grasp. At this point, it's becoming detrimental.
I would like to hear from shraeye. What do you think about Cuzz now?
Nothing has made me stop wanting to lynch him, not even the cop-claim.
What I am saying is:
No counterclaim =/= Cuzz is telling the truth.
I'm not sure if this is true, but even if Cuzz is telling the truth, I think we should lynch him.
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
I'm null-to-towny on glooble, raerae, Galz, liopoil, Munch; ashersky is slightly scummy; this is just what I recall, my notes aren't available right now. Out of those people, I am most certain that raerae is town, a lot about her attitude reminds me of her play as IC in Buffy, also her insistance to make Cuzz answer the question that he still hasn't answered (right?), her case on Jimmm.
Yeah yeah Cuzz might be scum, he might not be, we've been over this. I really want everyone to be on record with an answer to my question before seeing my flip.
This sounds good in practice, but waiting for EVERY SINGLE person to say something specific about this really just seems to be extending the game (post-wise and time-wise). I think the majority have answered, and am fine if one or two haven't before the end of the day. Not answering can be analyzed just like answering.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Of that selection Galzria is towniest. I'm leaning slightly town on raerae. liopoil is neutral for lack of good reads, ash is scum-side of neutral for being near-"equal" parts scum and town (not literally equal as that would be scummy, but read nearly equaling out)
Munch is slight-scum for lack of any better read on him really since he replaced in. Although I think I started to think something about him earlier, I can't place it now.
Glooble is slight-scum purely for lurking and I've got nothing else on him really (I did hate when I wanted to replace out in XI, and hoped that I would have felt the same as town...so I'm giving him credit for that feeling from myself. I don't doubt he's genuine about feeling like he shouldn't have joined...but that doesn't make him town.)
shraeye is prob-scum.
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I don't find anyone on the Cuzz wagon particularly Towny. The best I've got would be close to null-reads on Galz, Glooble and lio. I think "sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae" is meaningless, because as far as we know we've never seen scum raerae, so I'm inclined to think that sassy unhelpful raerae is raerae.
I actually probably have more of a Town read on Cuzz than anyone on his wagon. Having said that, that Town read is steadily waning due to this stalling he's doing. Although I have to admit his case on ash seems reasonable.
Cuzz, I have a question for you that you need to answer if not raerae's question. Why don't you want to give the reason for your Town read on me?
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I don't find anyone on the Cuzz wagon particularly Towny. The best I've got would be close to null-reads on Galz, Glooble and lio. I think "sassy unhelpful raerae is town!raerae" is meaningless, because as far as we know we've never seen scum raerae, so I'm inclined to think that sassy unhelpful raerae is raerae.
I actually probably have more of a Town read on Cuzz than anyone on his wagon. Having said that, that Town read is steadily waning due to this stalling he's doing. Although I have to admit his case on ash seems reasonable.
Cuzz, I have a question for you that you need to answer if not raerae's question. Why don't you want to give the reason for your Town read on me?
Jimmmmm, are you willing to lynch Cuzz?
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If after he comes back on he doesn't start playing ball, then I will.
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If after he comes back on he doesn't start playing ball, then I will.
Any idea when he'll be back?
And is robz around?
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Oh Cuzz is online now. Robz has been offline for 3 hours.
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Might just hammer already. I don't think he'll fess up to anything if he's scum.
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I think Cuzz not wanting to give out the reasons for his town read on Jimm is a slight town tell rather than a scum tell. I think the people pushing for that (so namely raerae) have confirmation bias or just arent thinking it through.
I still oppose the cuzz lynch and hope people voting for him find the courage to vote for someone with a better chance at flipping scum, despite the fact that I'll be looking really stupid if cuzz ends up being scum after me saying this again.
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Eevee, who's your biggest scum read?
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I think Cuzz not wanting to give out the reasons for his town read on Jimm is a slight town tell rather than a scum tell. I think the people pushing for that (so namely raerae) have confirmation bias or just arent thinking it through.
I still oppose the cuzz lynch and hope people voting for him find the courage to vote for someone with a better chance at flipping scum, despite the fact that I'll be looking really stupid if cuzz ends up being scum after me saying this again.
I've offered my alternative. Most people aren't going for it.
Theo wants shraeye. Most people aren't going for it.
A few want Jimmmmm. Most others are going for it.
We're at the point where we need to lynch someone we can actually lynch, and move on. That's Cuzz, I think.
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I think Cuzz not wanting to give out the reasons for his town read on Jimm is a slight town tell rather than a scum tell. I think the people pushing for that (so namely raerae) have confirmation bias or just arent thinking it through.
I still oppose the cuzz lynch and hope people voting for him find the courage to vote for someone with a better chance at flipping scum, despite the fact that I'll be looking really stupid if cuzz ends up being scum after me saying this again.
Help me out, Eevee, I honestly don't get it. We (the people on his wagon) are supposed to give our townreads so why isn't he held to the same standard? I am honestly perplexed.
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I think Cuzz not wanting to give out the reasons for his town read on Jimm is a slight town tell rather than a scum tell.
I agree that this COULD be the case, which is why I just want a good explanation why. It seems a strange thing for scum to say.
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I think Cuzz not wanting to give out the reasons for his town read on Jimm is a slight town tell rather than a scum tell. I think the people pushing for that (so namely raerae) have confirmation bias or just arent thinking it through.
I still oppose the cuzz lynch and hope people voting for him find the courage to vote for someone with a better chance at flipping scum, despite the fact that I'll be looking really stupid if cuzz ends up being scum after me saying this again.
Help me out, Eevee, I honestly don't get it. We (the people on his wagon) are supposed to give our townreads so why isn't he held to the same standard? I am honestly perplexed.
Raerae is correct here.
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Jimmmmm, would you vote Cuzz right now if it wasn't L-1?
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No, I think Cuzz is probably Town.
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No, I think Cuzz is probably Town.
And people think me voting no lynch was scummy???
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No, I think Cuzz is probably Town.
And people think me voting no lynch was scummy???
I don't understand, what's your point?
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No, I think Cuzz is probably Town.
And people think me voting no lynch was scummy???
I don't understand, what's your point?
That you, and others, are derailing the ONLY VIABLE LYNCH we have.
Who else have we even been close to lynching? There was that Eevee wagon ages ago. A few votes on you? I got raerae up to a grand total of 2 votes. Scum loves this, even without bankable deadlines, because we're just burying ourselves in pages that we won't have the energy to review.
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Oh, you mean, "And look at how hard it is to get a lynch through!"
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Oh, you mean, "And look at how hard it is to get a lynch through!"
Yes.
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Okay, that's fair enough. As I've mentioned, I'm waiting for Cuzz to comment, and if he doesn't start playing ball I'll hammer him for stalling.
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Okay, that's fair enough. As I've mentioned, I'm waiting for Cuzz to comment, and if he doesn't start playing ball I'll hammer him for stalling.
He's clearly stalling. Thing is, if he's stalling for a pro-town reason, I don't see it. If he's really a cop, or even just really town, and he wants to live and help us, why isn't he talking? Why isn't he explaining? How can his silence help? It's D1, not like he has info or something that he needs to take to the grave.
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I am here. It appears that day hasn't ended, I'll be rereading and posting shortly...
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I am here. It appears that day hasn't ended, I'll be rereading and posting shortly...
Please include a hammer in that post.
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Goddamnit people, me answering it in cuzz's stead gives him the excuse no to answer if he really is just scum stalling, and also has the same disadvantage cuzz answering it himself would have has; scum gets some information town doesn't want them to have.
But, I guess it's pointlesss at this point. The most extreme bad scenario (I actually find reasonably likely) is that cuzz spotted a breadcrumb jimm dropped. If that's the case, big congrats raerae and ashersky for painting a target in the back of our cop/doctor.
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Jimmmmm or yuma, can you answer this question? I fully admit that I'm probably crazypants, I have my response typed up and ready to go regarding reads, but I would really like an answer to this. (At this point, I've given up hope on cuzz responding to anything.)
Ash, before you get all hot and bothered, I did read your response but I felt it was very accusatory. Didn't really give an answer, just sort of shook a shame finger at me.
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Goddamnit people, me answering it in cuzz's stead gives him the excuse no to answer if he really is just scum stalling, and also has the same disadvantage cuzz answering it himself would have has; scum gets some information town doesn't want them to have.
But, I guess it's pointlesss at this point. The most extreme bad scenario (I actually find reasonably likely) is that cuzz spotted a breadcrumb jimm dropped. If that's the case, big congrats raerae and ashersky for painting a target in the back of our cop/doctor.
Don't lump me in there. I wasn't asking for him to answer. I was asking someone to hammer. I didn't care if he answered.
I think you keep forgetting (because I keep forgetting), being the cop/doc doesn't mean he isn't scum.
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Goddamnit people, me answering it in cuzz's stead gives him the excuse no to answer if he really is just scum stalling, and also has the same disadvantage cuzz answering it himself would have has; scum gets some information town doesn't want them to have.
But, I guess it's pointlesss at this point. The most extreme bad scenario (I actually find reasonably likely) is that cuzz spotted a breadcrumb jimm dropped. If that's the case, big congrats raerae and ashersky for painting a target in the back of our cop/doctor.
STOP.
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We need to stop rolespeculating about non-lynch candidates.
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Jimmmmm or yuma, can you answer this question? I fully admit that I'm probably crazypants, I have my response typed up and ready to go regarding reads, but I would really like an answer to this. (At this point, I've given up hope on cuzz responding to anything.)
Ash, before you get all hot and bothered, I did read your response but I felt it was very accusatory. Didn't really give an answer, just sort of shook a shame finger at me.
I think you are asking for input on why people aren't reacting more negatively to Cuzz NOT explaining his Jimmmmm-town read, right?
I think you've seen some thoughts in the last few posts to that...
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To expand on my point above: why would scum fake a townread and refuse to explain any reasons? Inventing reasons isnt hard at all. Refusing to give them draws unwanted attention. Towntell.
I don't have a single strong scum read, and refusing to vote for anyone but one guy would actually be a bit unreasonable. Loosely in order I would prefer shraeye, Munch, liopoil, raerae, glooble or mcmc.
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I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Wait, wait, wait...found another issue with beyond the stubborn "he didn't answer my question so I'm not answering his." He didn't do this himself until post #1009 and then he basically said everybody on his wagon is scum or could be. Maybe I'm being paranoid here but for somebody who hasn't told town anything all game I don't feel like he's a good position to be commanding us around. I don't feel comfortable telling his potential scumbuddies who I think is town. That's strange, right? If he is scum we just told his friends where they rank in our eyes. Robz, you're actually striking cords with me this game, am I totally off my rocker with this?
I think that's a fairly good point, and I've wondered in general if Townies should be keeping quieter about their Town reads.
Holy crap. Cuzz is offline. He was in this thread, and now he's gone.
Announcing intent to hammer in ~10 mins if Cuzz hasn't posted by then.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
I guess I will answer this. My answer is that I have a town read on ash. And I think at the same time I will explain how I feel about Cuzz.
I have modded over, played scum with and played town against scum Cuzz and ash and through all of this I have felt that I have gotten to know these two player's pretty well. ash especially... This to me is classic town!ash. I don't like his style of play. In fact it drives me nuts, but I think it is town. It isn't like ash from MXIV--where I was scum with him--or MXV--where I called him out as scum Day1-4. He looks scummy, he writes scummy posts, he makes me quite frustrated. But I think he is town.
Cuzz. I would vote for him if we were 30 minutes from the deadline. But hey, we aren't. I think we can get a better lynch. I would love to end this day. It has gone on long enough, yes. But we already have 45ish pages... perhaps 5 more is worth it if we can get a better lynch? I am certainly going to try for one.
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I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Wait, wait, wait...found another issue with beyond the stubborn "he didn't answer my question so I'm not answering his." He didn't do this himself until post #1009 and then he basically said everybody on his wagon is scum or could be. Maybe I'm being paranoid here but for somebody who hasn't told town anything all game I don't feel like he's a good position to be commanding us around. I don't feel comfortable telling his potential scumbuddies who I think is town. That's strange, right? If he is scum we just told his friends where they rank in our eyes. Robz, you're actually striking cords with me this game, am I totally off my rocker with this?
I think that's a fairly good point, and I've wondered in general if Townies should be keeping quieter about their Town reads.
Holy crap. Cuzz is offline. He was in this thread, and now he's gone.
Announcing intent to hammer in ~10 mins if Cuzz hasn't posted by then.
So...is it cool if I keep my thoughts and feelings to myself for the time-being?
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Cuzz. I would vote for him if we were 30 minutes from the deadline. But hey, we aren't. I think we can get a better lynch. I would love to end this day. It has gone on long enough, yes. But we already have 45ish pages... perhaps 5 more is worth it if we can get a better lynch? I am certainly going to try for one.
You think we can get a better lynch? Man, I really, really think that's wishful thinking.
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Reasonable people, lets join. Wagons can build crazy fast, Robz. Yuma or Robz, vote for any of the guys I listed a couple posts ago and I'll follow.
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I have no idea whether Cuzz is going to flip scum anymore. I get what Eevee's saying about Cuzz's Jimm tell. That makes sense to me. Still, Cuzz's lingering death reads scum to me. Then factor in that the initial case is a mix of okay things--his joke about mcmc--and some not okay things. Plus, his claim. Oh, but his claim changed like nobody's mind? Not a single unvote after the claim. Seems crazy. Don't know what it suggests.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Ok... this ticks me off! seriously guys. There are ~4 people on this list who have expressed that they are not willing to vote cuzz. And they aren't even voting anyone else. If you guys don't vote, he will get lynched. In fact if he does get lynched and flips town, I am blaming these 5 (well Cuzz will be dead and isn't he voting shraeye now?) over the 8 that are on the Cuzz wagon! Sheesh. You don't want to vote Cuzz! Who do you want to vote for. If he isn't a good wagon start one yourself! Vote glooble, or raerae or themunch... vote who you think is scum. But don't just plop your vote on Not voting where it is nice and cozy and safe! These are all good players too....
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Wow!! Yuma +1000. No wonder I'm so frustrated at this town.
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Cuzz. I would vote for him if we were 30 minutes from the deadline. But hey, we aren't. I think we can get a better lynch. I would love to end this day. It has gone on long enough, yes. But we already have 45ish pages... perhaps 5 more is worth it if we can get a better lynch? I am certainly going to try for one.
You think we can get a better lynch? Man, I really, really think that's wishful thinking.
well if vets like you actually voted for someone instead of safely sitting with "not voting" then yes I think we could! in fact vote: robz for not doing anything and being resigned to a lynch that he is safely off!
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Cuzz. I would vote for him if we were 30 minutes from the deadline. But hey, we aren't. I think we can get a better lynch. I would love to end this day. It has gone on long enough, yes. But we already have 45ish pages... perhaps 5 more is worth it if we can get a better lynch? I am certainly going to try for one.
You think we can get a better lynch? Man, I really, really think that's wishful thinking.
well if vets like you actually voted for someone instead of safely sitting with "not voting" then yes I think we could! in fact vote: robz for not doing anything and being resigned to a lynch that he is safely off!
I was here ALL DAY arguing against the Cuzz lynch. You dare to swoop in--far too late to do anything about it--and blame this on me?
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you aren't voting for anyone... are you?
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Ok... this ticks me off! seriously guys. There are ~4 people on this list who have expressed that they are not willing to vote cuzz. And they aren't even voting anyone else. If you guys don't vote, he will get lynched. In fact if he does get lynched and flips town, I am blaming these 5 (well Cuzz will be dead and isn't he voting shraeye now?) over the 8 that are on the Cuzz wagon! Sheesh. You don't want to vote Cuzz! Who do you want to vote for. If he isn't a good wagon start one yourself! Vote glooble, or raerae or themunch... vote who you think is scum. But don't just plop your vote on Not voting where it is nice and cozy and safe! These are all good players too....
I think there's a little kettle/pot/black here given who you're voting for.
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you aren't voting for anyone... are you?
I guess that's fair. But I don't really think plopping a vote down somewhere is some "oh, he did his fair share now" thing.
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But just to appease yuma, I will Vote: shraeye, my biggest scum read.
However, still haven't received a good reason not to hammer Cuzz for stalling, and his time is pretty much up.
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But just to appease yuma, I will Vote: shraeye, my biggest scum read.
However, still haven't received a good reason not to hammer Cuzz for stalling, and his time is pretty much up.
Stalling how?
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I had stuff written, and then the thread blew up. Yay.
So, it looks like Cuzz got derailed...again. Amazing. Hope you're town, man.
I had been on raerae for ages. I will switch back...again. Let's see if anyone's with me.
vote: raerae
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Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
Ok... this ticks me off! seriously guys. There are ~4 people on this list who have expressed that they are not willing to vote cuzz. And they aren't even voting anyone else. If you guys don't vote, he will get lynched. In fact if he does get lynched and flips town, I am blaming these 5 (well Cuzz will be dead and isn't he voting shraeye now?) over the 8 that are on the Cuzz wagon! Sheesh. You don't want to vote Cuzz! Who do you want to vote for. If he isn't a good wagon start one yourself! Vote glooble, or raerae or themunch... vote who you think is scum. But don't just plop your vote on Not voting where it is nice and cozy and safe! These are all good players too....
I think there's a little kettle/pot/black here given who you're voting for.
well sure. I have been gone all day. I don't live on these forums. And I still say that glooble is a valid lynch option that was abandoned far too quickly. In fact it wasn't even given a chance to produce the real results that I was looking for... to see if Glooble would start posting more under pressure--there now I gave away my scum hunting trick--like Lekkit and Grujah did when we lynched them. But all he had to do was post twice and the pressure was off, just like that. What was that all about?
But man! You guys whine about there being no other lynch option. There are plenty of options. Look at the player list. But you aren't willing to put your vote somewhere?
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But just to appease yuma, I will Vote: shraeye, my biggest scum read.
However, still haven't received a good reason not to hammer Cuzz for stalling, and his time is pretty much up.
Stalling how?
Oh so you're here now.
Why won't you tell us why you have a Town read on me?
Answer in your next post.
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you aren't voting for anyone... are you?
I guess that's fair. But I don't really think plopping a vote down somewhere is some "oh, he did his fair share now" thing.
And I am not suggesting that I am doing heavy lifting here. All I know is that someone that I am not comfortable lynching at the moment was 10 minutes away from being lynched and everyone was like "hey, whatever man..." So I am saying something about it, and hopefully it produces something good.
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Yuma, it's not that there aren't other options. There are! It's that there aren't other options that a bunch of players agree on.
For instance: I think your case against Glooble was not good. I'm fairly convinced Glooble is town. I'd much, much rather see Cuzz go down than Glooble.
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Robz, yuma, Eevee, join me with my shraeye vote, or decide on a best alternative.
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I had stuff written, and then the thread blew up. Yay.
So, it looks like Cuzz got derailed...again. Amazing. Hope you're town, man.
I had been on raerae for ages. I will switch back...again. Let's see if anyone's with me.
vote: raerae
Why again? I forget. That case was, like, 40 f-ing pages ago.
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vote: shraeye
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Robz, yuma, Eevee, join me with my shraeye vote, or decide on a best alternative.
Best alternative is shraeye or Munch, I guess.
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Then vote for shraeye.
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I had stuff written, and then the thread blew up. Yay.
So, it looks like Cuzz got derailed...again. Amazing. Hope you're town, man.
I had been on raerae for ages. I will switch back...again. Let's see if anyone's with me.
vote: raerae
Why again? I forget. That case was, like, 40 f-ing pages ago.
To be honest, I'm not asking you to join that wagon. Unless you think I can convince you?
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Yuma, it's not that there aren't other options. There are! It's that there aren't other options that a bunch of players agree on.
For instance: I think your case against Glooble was not good. I'm fairly convinced Glooble is town. I'd much, much rather see Cuzz go down than Glooble.
ok, that is fair. I guess what I am saying is that when players look for other options, it is hard to see them when one player has 7 votes and a scatter shot has 1 apiece... but yeah... I am more onboard with a shraeye lynch then a cuzz lynch.
vote: shraeye
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vote: shraeye
He's in the middle of the pack for me, less scummy than raerae, probably on par with Cuzz.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
Lol.
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see that wasn't that hard! now let's get a response from shraeye... I am sure it will be something like "there isn't even a case on me!" which is certainly valid. So perhaps we should find reasons for why we are voting shraeye?
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
Wait, can we lynch Cuzz for this? This is ridiculous.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
Wait, can we lynch Cuzz for this? This is ridiculous.
Then put, and keep, your vote on him so somebody can hammer.
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see that wasn't that hard! now let's get a response from shraeye... I am sure it will be something like "there isn't even a case on me!" which is certainly valid. So perhaps we should find reasons for why we are voting shraeye?
And then we can do that for everyone else on the list and lynch no one! Hoorah!!!
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
Wait, can we lynch Cuzz for this? This is ridiculous.
Ridiculous doesn't even begin to describe this game.
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I'm tempted. That's such a nothing answer.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
Wait, can we lynch Cuzz for this? This is ridiculous.
Then put, and keep, your vote on him so somebody can hammer.
Oh, don't worry, I have no fear of hammer-stigma. I'll hammer if someone else votes to L-1 (which is more likely, anyway).
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Vote: shraeye I guess. I'm sheeping my top scumread here, guys (Eevee).
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I'm tempted. That's such a nothing answer.
well go ahead then... but at least now you all can't use the excuse of "there isn't any other option, we have to lynch him or no one!"
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Vote: shraeye I guess. I'm sheeping my top scumread here, guys (Eevee).
Technically, you're (indirectly) sheeping me.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
That's such an unsatisfying answer.
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I got a townread on Jimmmmm because Dsell expressed one, and he is my biggest townread.
That's such an unsatisfying answer.
Messed up the quoting there. I, Robz888, think Cuzz's answer was terrible.
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Vote: shraeye I guess. I'm sheeping my top scumread here, guys (Eevee).
?????????????????????? Do I just know nothing of mafia? Why would you sheep your scumread? Oh good gravy, I'm clueless.
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I still prefer the shraeye lynch, but the Cuzz lynch is looking better every minute.
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Vote: shraeye I guess. I'm sheeping my top scumread here, guys (Eevee).
?????????????????????? Do I just know nothing of mafia? Why would you sheep your scumread? Oh good gravy, I'm clueless.
You're not clueless! It makes no sense!
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Vote: shraeye
I am the only one here who knows for sure that my wagon is on town, and I think it's a scum-driven wagon. Based on the responses to my earlier question, I sense a consensus that most people don't find that wagon to be swimming with town either. And shraeye set the fire under it.
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I will go on record again regarding Dsell.
If you are town out there, stop giving him more than 9000 town points for his townslip at the beginning of the day. Really. That's easily faked. In fact, I'll fake it my next game as scum, if I ever roll it. It's worth, maybe 10 town points?
But "I have a town read on X solely because Dselltownie Mctown Mayor of Townville does" IS NOT OKAY. That's just going too far, man. Come back! Come back!
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This game is bonkers.
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Did everybody just go from voting somebody with half a case on them to voting somebody with no case on them? What is happening??
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Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
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Right?
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I think shraeye is at L-2...
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That's 6 votes on shraeye in like ten minutes. Awesome.
Also, this:
Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
If we all switch back, Jimmmmm can hammer. Is that what we want?
It takes 8 to lynch, so we need two more votes on shraeye...raerae and? We don't have the numbers.
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
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Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
that is rather interesting... Cuzz?
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
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Why are you fine with it? It makes no sense. The only reason to not share the explanation of his townread on Jimm is if he thought he was a town PR, or something.
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
Eevee you're like the only one in this game I haven't cursed at aloud in the last few days. I hope you're town :)
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Here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg173890#msg173890) is my case on shraeye, which basically boils down to "I think he's not looking at things closely and spinning them to make them sound scummier."
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That's 6 votes on shraeye in like ten minutes. Awesome.
Also, this:
Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
If we all switch back, Jimmmmm can hammer. Is that what we want?
It takes 8 to lynch, so we need two more votes on shraeye...raerae and? We don't have the numbers.
Not going to happen. Not from me anyway. Complain about the cuzz case then vote shraeye because he presented it? In multi-ball? Bull.
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
This. The problem is not the answer, it's the fuss he made about not wanting to give it.
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
This. The problem is not the answer, it's the fuss he made about not wanting to give it.
Yes yes yes, exactly. It's a fine answer, but it's not one you should ever refuse to give. There's no reason to refuse to give it.
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And because he did refuse to give it--for a long time!--we expected it to be something else. And he wonders why we say he's stalling.
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Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
Its a perfectly valid answer even if he really spotted a breadcrumb. Also, could just be town tangled up in his own mistake.
Btw Robz, I like how you said there are no way we can get another lynch anymore 30 minutes ago and I responded with "wagons can grow crazy fast". :D
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Cuzz, explain yourself now.
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Robz or Jimmmmm. Switch to Cuzz and I will hammer.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
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Okay, wait. Cuzz had no reason to refuse to answer raerae's question about his town read on Jimm, if the answer was only "Because Dsell says so."
Its a perfectly valid answer even if he really spotted a breadcrumb. Also, could just be town tangled up in his own mistake.
Btw Robz, I like how you said there are no way we can get another lynch anymore 30 minutes ago and I responded with "wagons can grow crazy fast". :D
It could be town tangled up in his own mistake... or it could be because he had to invent reads on the fly and got lazy in actually explaining them. As someone who has been a tired scum before, I lean toward the latter.
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Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
That was the wagon.
I think I'm the only one who switched to shraeye. Anyone goes back to Cuzz and we are set.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
I'm voting Cuzz if he doesn't answer in the next few minutes.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
So scummy. You were the one pushing for Cuzz to answer your question for like 14 pages.
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This was healthy though. The fact that Cuzz's need to conceal his townread on Jimm was a lie has given the case against him its strongest piece of evidence.
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I'll be voting Cuzz unless I see a damn good reason not to very very soon.
PPE Robz.
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Side note: I like how this game feels like blitz all of a sudden and the real blitz game is silent.
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I'll be voting Cuzz unless I see a damn good reason not to very very soon.
PPE Robz.
I'll be F5ing until I can hammer.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
I'm voting Cuzz if he doesn't answer in the next few minutes.
Hoping he didnt go to the bathroom or something then. I think you put way too much weight into this 'stalling because he cant think of a lie' tell.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
I'm voting Cuzz if he doesn't answer in the next few minutes.
Hoping he didnt go to the bathroom or something then. I think you put way too much weight into this 'stalling because he cant think of a lie' tell.
I think it's a strong tell, actually. Scum is less likely to have prepared their bag of lies for D1 than subsequent days.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
I'm voting Cuzz if he doesn't answer in the next few minutes.
Hoping he didnt go to the bathroom or something then. I think you put way too much weight into this 'stalling because he cant think of a lie' tell.
He already lied by omission. He implied there was a reason not to explain his Jimm read. THERE MANIFESTLY WAS NO REASON NOT TO EXPLAIN IT. At least, he hasn't given one. The one he did give indicates he is scum.
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I certainly don't mean this as a derailment, just as something to ponder: what do we think of Eevee's continued defense of Cuzz?
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I certainly don't mean this as a derailment, just as something to ponder: what do we think of Eevee's continued defense of Cuzz?
Misled town or bold scum play.
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Why are we so eager to have cuzz explain himself but you all put shaeye at L-2 without a second thought. Would happily have him at L-1 if you could get me or anybody else on board? What is going on, people?!?!?!?
I'm voting Cuzz if he doesn't answer in the next few minutes.
Hoping he didnt go to the bathroom or something then. I think you put way too much weight into this 'stalling because he cant think of a lie' tell.
I think it's a strong tell, actually. Scum is less likely to have prepared their bag of lies for D1 than subsequent days.
Yes, xactly exactly. I literally have been scum before and said "I have townread on X." And then someone says why, and I curse under my breath and shrug "I don't know." This is what Cuzz did, only even worse.
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I certainly don't mean this as a derailment, just as something to ponder: what do we think of Eevee's continued defense of Cuzz?
Although, I'd put it at like 1% they're on the same scum team.
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I certainly don't mean this as a derailment, just as something to ponder: what do we think of Eevee's continued defense of Cuzz?
I alright think Eevee is scum, but almost definitely not on the same team as Cuzz (if Cuzz is scum). That would make this SO dangerous.
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
This. The problem is not the answer, it's the fuss he made about not wanting to give it.
FINE GUYS!
Dsell expressed a very strong townread on Jimmmmm. I feel pretty sure Dsell is town. He seemed so certain that Jimmmmm is town that I thought maybe they were masons or something.
And now I really hope I'm wrong or you guys will have forced me to out 3 town PRs in one day.
For chrissake, before you just throw random suspicions at me and quote everything I say with "I don't like this" kind of commentary, take a damn second to think about whether what I'm saying and doing makes sense if I'm mafia. What the hell is the scum motivation for withholding the exact reasoning for a townread, AND making it completely clear that I didn't want to give that reasoning? Scum would just make something up and call it a day.
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I certainly don't mean this as a derailment, just as something to ponder: what do we think of Eevee's continued defense of Cuzz?
I think it's something to look at tomorrow. Let's note this and come back to it.
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I too want Cuzz to explain himself, but I think it would be a mistake to lynch him before answering. In fact I think I am still against lynching him regardless of his answer, but yes, a an answer would be great.
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and that is what I was afraid of...
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Dsell expressed a very strong townread on Jimmmmm. I feel pretty sure Dsell is town. He seemed so certain that Jimmmmm is town that I thought maybe they were masons or something.
That's quite a leap to make. Insert:
"I don't like this" kind of commentary
here.
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and that is what I was afraid of...
You really buy that?
I've expressed an undying town read on Robz all day. Are we possibly Mason Lover Best Friends?
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
This. The problem is not the answer, it's the fuss he made about not wanting to give it.
FINE GUYS!
Dsell expressed a very strong townread on Jimmmmm. I feel pretty sure Dsell is town. He seemed so certain that Jimmmmm is town that I thought maybe they were masons or something.
And now I really hope I'm wrong or you guys will have forced me to out 3 town PRs in one day.
For chrissake, before you just throw random suspicions at me and quote everything I say with "I don't like this" kind of commentary, take a damn second to think about whether what I'm saying and doing makes sense if I'm mafia. What the hell is the scum motivation for withholding the exact reasoning for a townread, AND making it completely clear that I didn't want to give that reasoning? Scum would just make something up and call it a day.
Oh, don't even "FINE GUYS" me. I don't believe you actually thought this for more than 2 seconds.
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and that is what I was afraid of...
You really buy that?
I've expressed an undying town read on Robz all day. Are we possibly Mason Lover Best Friends?
I don't know... That is what I was afraid of...
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Ashersky, the exact point is that would be hard to fake. So good luck, we all try when we roll scum.
I'm fine with cuzz's answer.
You're also fine with him hiding that answer?
This. The problem is not the answer, it's the fuss he made about not wanting to give it.
FINE GUYS!
Dsell expressed a very strong townread on Jimmmmm. I feel pretty sure Dsell is town. He seemed so certain that Jimmmmm is town that I thought maybe they were masons or something.
And now I really hope I'm wrong or you guys will have forced me to out 3 town PRs in one day.
For chrissake, before you just throw random suspicions at me and quote everything I say with "I don't like this" kind of commentary, take a damn second to think about whether what I'm saying and doing makes sense if I'm mafia. What the hell is the scum motivation for withholding the exact reasoning for a townread, AND making it completely clear that I didn't want to give that reasoning? Scum would just make something up and call it a day.
Okay im back on page 45 but i had to jump ahead to see is cuzz got lyched, so I read this post and wanted to mention, the scm motivation is livivg for an extra 8 pages. I will catch up tomorow morning, but iv'e got to go to bed now.
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and that is what I was afraid of...
You really buy that?
I've expressed an undying town read on Robz all day. Are we possibly Mason Lover Best Friends?
Omg ashersky I was about to say literally the exact same thing. Is everyone who has a strong townread on everyone else a Mason now?
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And yet...Cuzz is still unlynchable.
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And yet...Cuzz is still unlynchable.
No he's not.
Vote: Cuzz
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My gosh. I just went back and read like 2 pages and there were 3 new pages when I finished rereading...
Someone explain why the Shraeye wagon took off?
Is there a deadline in 10 minutes or something?
5 new replies??
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And yet...Cuzz is still unlynchable.
No he's not.
Vote: Cuzz
I love you. Tell shraeye. I don't even care.
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I really hate this game right now. I'm gonna need a mafia break after my lynch.
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Somebody hammer or I'll do it myself.
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Well his explanation makes some sense. Wouldn't be too hard to fake as scum though, I think.
@Dsell: I think we're all a bit sick of being in day 1 here, and there were a bunch of us saying "There could be a better lynch", so we put our votes on one.
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when I make my road trip around the states, I'll make damn sure to stop by wherever it was that cuzz lived and share a beer or five while venting about the day 1 of mafia xix. or he'll flip scum and I'm the dolt.
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when I make my road trip around the states, I'll make damn sure to stop by wherever it was that cuzz lived and share a beer or five while venting about the day 1 of mafia xix. or he'll flip scum and I'm the dolt.
You are welcome any time! Even if you're scum, I appreciate someone being on my side.
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Holy crap what's happened here? 10 freaking new pages? What happened to "lynch in 40"?
Skimming for important bits....
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Didn't we have three people ready to hammer just minutes ago?
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I'm mulling over Cuzz' answer.
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Scum, I want you all to feel really personally bad about the fact that you know my irritation is genuine and that you're exploiting it for your own gain right now.
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Scum, I want you all to feel really personally bad about the fact that you know my irritation is genuine and that you're exploiting it for your own gain right now.
Dude, that's the game. No need to get personal.
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Scum, I want you all to feel really personally bad about the fact that you know my irritation is genuine and that you're exploiting it for your own gain right now.
Dude, that's the game. No need to get personal.
Sorry, that post was tongue in cheek but it probably didn't sound like it.
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vote: cuzz
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Sorry for the delay.
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Hammer, yes?
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Well I guess that's that. Doesn't look like either of the mods are around, so I guess we wait.
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Hammer, yes?
We believe so.
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Boo!
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Cuzz, if we just mislynched you, here's your opportunity to regale us with untainted wisdom. We like conf!town opinions when possible.
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So we're just gonna lynch all claimed town PRs D1 from now on, is that it? Would be good to know for next time.
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Man what do you want me to say? My reads haven't changed a ton since this morning.
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So we're just gonna lynch all claimed town PRs D1 from now on, is that it? Would be good to know for next time.
The thing with this game is, claimed PR =/= town. The setup is tough.
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So we're just gonna lynch all claimed town PRs D1 from now on, is that it? Would be good to know for next time.
You werent really a power role, but I share your frustration other than that. Town or scum?
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Gah! I do homework for 10 minutes and you guys lynch him? Well, at least there was another viable wagon out there for a bit...
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Robz is likely town, as are theorel, Dsell and Jimmmmm. Everyone else could be scum for all I know. I'm having trouble at the moment though separating those I think are most likely to be scum from those I'm most annoyed with. Eevee seems more town lately. Is there precedent for him buddying town really hard as scum? He's been accused in the past but always ends up being town when this happens. I will add to be wary of invisiyuma too. I can't read him worth a damn.
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So we're just gonna lynch all claimed town PRs D1 from now on, is that it? Would be good to know for next time.
You werent really a power role, but I share your frustration other than that. Town or scum?
Isn't it more fun to wait?
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Sorry, I shouldn't say invisiyuma. That has negative connotations that are rather unfair.
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I think your biggest scum reads at this point are more important than your biggest Town reads. Who is scum, and why?
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So disappointed all that buddying didn't even earn me the measliest town read. I mean dude come on I went to extreme lengths!
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Oh let's also be wary of everyone who was posting up a storm desperately trying to push my lynch a minute ago who are now silently breathing a sigh of relief. Looking toward raerae here.
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Sorry, I shouldn't say invisiyuma. That has negative connotations that are rather unfair.
Thanks! But I really don't mind the moniker anymore.
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Oh let's also be wary of everyone who was posting up a storm desperately trying to push my lynch a minute ago who are now silently breathing a sigh of relief. Looking toward raerae here.
Yes! Raerae!
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What do you think of shraeye, the other candidate at the end, the person who really started your wagon, and the one who will likely come under more scrutiny if you flip Town?
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Oh let's also be wary of everyone who was posting up a storm desperately trying to push my lynch a minute ago who are now silently breathing a sigh of relief. Looking toward raerae here.
Should I be celebrating loudly in thread? I'm just glad that shitstorm is done. Honestly have no clue what you're going to flip but I'll stand by vote. Also, I'm old balls so I'd love to go to bed but I was hoping a mod would pop in and confirm stuff before that happened.
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Do we have a co-mod or back-up around?
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Can I write my own flip?
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Can I write my own flip?
That'd be pretty awesometroll.
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Can I write my own flip?
I did in M3 when I flipped scum. It was pretty fun and Insomniac even used it as the flavour... although there I self voted (Gasp! yuma self-voted!!! yes I have self voted, twice actually and both times I was scum!)
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Aaand, caught up.
That was a hell of a lot of stuff. I honestly don't even know where to start.
Wait, yes I do. HUGE FoS at the 6 voters that put Shraeye to L-2 in a 10 minute span (and were freaking asking for Raerae to go L-1 so someone else could hammer? WTF?).
Don't get me wrong, Shraeye is on my radar for scumminess, but that **** just don't happen, yo.
Seriously, did NOBODY besides Raerae see how completely whack that was? Like, I get the whole "Cuzz isn't the only viable option" line, but Yuma's followup of "I guess we should all go find reasons to explain our votes now" seriously had my eyes popping out. That was RIDICULOUS.
I'm glad people came to their senses here. This day has fried my circuits.
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Aaand, caught up.
That was a hell of a lot of stuff. I honestly don't even know where to start.
Wait, yes I do. HUGE FoS at the 6 voters that put Shraeye to L-2 in a 10 minute span (and were freaking asking for Raerae to go L-1 so someone else could hammer? WTF?).
Don't get me wrong, Shraeye is on my radar for scumminess, but that **** just don't happen, yo.
Seriously, did NOBODY besides Raerae see how completely whack that was? Like, I get the whole "Cuzz isn't the only viable option" line, but Yuma's followup of "I guess we should all go find reasons to explain our votes now" seriously had my eyes popping out. That was RIDICULOUS.
I'm glad people came to their senses here. This day has fried my circuits.
I agree that putting shraeye to a quick lynch--that is getting two more votes asap--would be pretty ridiculous. But the point remained, that at least for me as I can't speak for the others, that I felt far more comfortable with a shraeye lynch than I did a Cuzz lynch. And I thin you are missing the point of the quote from me...
see that wasn't that hard! now let's get a response from shraeye... I am sure it will be something like "there isn't even a case on me!" which is certainly valid. So perhaps we should find reasons for why we are voting shraeye?
and in rereading it I guess it isn't as clearly factitious as I intended it to be.... What I was trying to imply here was that shraeye was going to come screaming saying "all these votes w/o a huge case like the one I made on Cuzz!!!" Which from his point of view is valid, but from my point of view, in that I don't see the point or the usefullness of those huge cases day1, I was being silly in suggesting that we had better go create a huge case on shraeye to give him something to respond to.
As far as the 6 votes... I am glad they were there. It proved--well maybe not proved, but suggested at least--that enough town members really wanted to lynch Cuzz and that it wasn't just because "there wasn't any other option available."
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I so rarely disagree with Galzria and actually most everyone like this. Well, I mean I guess if Cuzz flips scum you can all point at me and laugh (yes, you seriously can), but until then I stand by all my actions. Too bad it wasn't enough.
Well, actually I'll stand by all of my actions even if Cuzz flips scum, but I'll feel stupid.
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The mod is asleep. He has work in the morning. My guess is he waited as long as he could for ya'll to lynch then went to bed.
Expect a flip around 9 tomorrow morning I'd say.
Signed,
The mods roommate.
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Glooble, you've been reading this thread for a while. I assumed you were catching up. What are your thoughts on the latest events of the day?
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I was reading while drunk and in a car, so I thought it best not to comment. But the shraeye wagon freaked me out a little.
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Simply due to its speed. I sorta understand where it came from.
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Just got back.
Cuzz, if you truly are town, sorry of course. I just didn't find your Mason read very convincing. It's really not based on anything.
In either case, I am sorry if I--or anyone else--upset you. I hope you don't actually want a break from mafia!
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I hope you don't actually want a break from mafia!
Especially since you are in an ongoing game now!
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Can I gloat if Cuzz is town? I promise you can make of fun me if he isn't.
I feel so empty every time I get a strong town read, yell my lungs out to try to save him and people still lynch him. Not having the flip yet makes it all the more excruciating.
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Can I gloat if Cuzz is town? I promise you can make of fun me if he isn't.
I feel so empty every time I get a strong town read, yell my lungs out to try to save him and people still lynch him. Not having the flip yet makes it all the more excruciating.
Is it the same feeling you get when you are absolutely sure ashersky is scum and then I flip town? I think that's what it must be like. :)
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Can I gloat if Cuzz is town? I promise you can make of fun me if he isn't.
I feel so empty every time I get a strong town read, yell my lungs out to try to save him and people still lynch him. Not having the flip yet makes it all the more excruciating.
Is it the same feeling you get when you are absolutely sure ashersky is scum and then I flip town? I think that's what it must be like. :)
Well, taking a bad read is my mistake. I can learn from that, try to analyze what went wrong and next time I'll hopefully know better. Being right but not getting people to see it is different kind of frustrating (although it's good to remember there is a good chance some of the people who just wouldn't see your point were actual scum themselves).
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Thread Locked.
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"Dax to Sisko. Odo couldn't stop the lynch. Too many of his own deputies in the crowd. We finally got a look at the victim and its... Captain, its Julian."
Vote Count 1.16
Cuzz (8): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz
Not Voting (2): Dsell, theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
The crew quickly look through Bashir's quarters (after the body doesn't revert to gelatin, proving he wasn't a changeling.) There are no secret Maquis orders, no dispatches from the Terran Rebellion. There is, however, a secret Starfleet order from Admiral Ross dispatching him to investigate the station for a potential Changeling security threat.
Cuzz has been lynched. He was Dr. Julian Bashir, Station-Aligned Changeling Cop.
Night Action deadline is Thursday, January 17 at 6:45 a.m., forum time.
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Because of the nature of night actions in this game, the night will last the full 48 hours and no one will be individually prodded to use their powers. No PM = I assume you chose not to use your power. That means, be very careful to send your actions to jotheonah, not jtotheonah (a stupid dummy account I made ages ago and never use).
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It's a restless night on Deep Space Nine in the wake of Dr. Bashir's death. But the next morning, everyone gets up and goes to work.
Well, not everyone. When Quark's isn't opened yet, a worried deputy runs to find Odo. But Odo's nowhere to be found either.
Finally, a search party turns up Odo's powdered remains. He was killed in the night.
"But sir," O'Brien tells Sisko, scanning the remains, "This isn't our Odo. The quantum signature suggests this Odo crossed over from the Mirror Universe."
Quark's body, littered with phaser burns, turns up behind the bar, stuffed into an access panel. Detailed searches of his comm records make it clear that he wasn't working with anyone shadier than his usual business partners - he was Station-aligned.
raerae has been nightkilled. She was Station-aligned Neighbor Quark.
Galzria has been nightkilled. He was Mirror-Universe-Aligned Rolecop Odo.
Day 2 begins
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Good job someone! Either SK or other scum team hit scum unless we have a vig.
Mirror Uni cop just became surely relevant.
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Interesting.
Both raerae and Galzria were on the Cuzz lynch.
I'll need to reread each of them. Before rereading:
I'm slightly more suspicious of Jimmmmm given raerae's case on him.
Still somewhat suspicious of shraeye for yesterday's shenanigans re: Cuzz-lynch. Also Galzria's reaction to his sudden-wagon given Galzria's alignment.
Slight increase in Ashersky suspicions for pushing case on now-known town.
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Remaining cops stay silent unless they have a scum result, I think.
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Interesting.
Both raerae and Galzria were on the Cuzz lynch.
I'll need to reread each of them. Before rereading:
I'm slightly more suspicious of Jimmmmm given raerae's case on him.
Still somewhat suspicious of shraeye for yesterday's shenanigans re: Cuzz-lynch. Also Galzria's reaction to his sudden-wagon given Galzria's alignment.
Slight increase in Ashersky suspicions for pushing case on now-known town.
On Galz being on the wagon, do we think his partner(s) were off wagon, or joined?
I thought raerae was scum until I learned her alignment, honestly.
Long re-reads needed, clearly. Whomever raerae and Galz suspected will rise to the top.
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Interesting.
Both raerae and Galzria were on the Cuzz lynch.
I'll need to reread each of them. Before rereading:
I'm slightly more suspicious of Jimmmmm given raerae's case on him.
Still somewhat suspicious of shraeye for yesterday's shenanigans re: Cuzz-lynch. Also Galzria's reaction to his sudden-wagon given Galzria's alignment.
Slight increase in Ashersky suspicions for pushing case on now-known town.
On Galz being on the wagon, do we think his partner(s) were off wagon, or joined?
I thought raerae was scum until I learned her alignment, honestly.
Long re-reads needed, clearly. Whomever raerae and Galz suspected will rise to the top.
Galz and raerae being on wagon means that both scum-teams knowingly dwindled the number of players on-wagon. This increases the chance that they were off-wagon given that typically scum would want to reduce the pool of players that doesn't include them, rather than the pool of players that does. Absent night-kill info, I would say scum is slightly more likely to be on-wagon.
Galz being on-wagon and scum means very little to me in multi-ball. Scum want to split up on townie lynches, but they all want to lynch scum. Take MVI for example when all-but-two scum (out of 6) were on the Eevee-wagon. Scum killed one player on the Eevee-wagon (joth) but he was essentially confirmed-town, so that barely counts.
I believe you thought raerae was scum (regardless of your alignment). However, all things being equal, a scum player is more likely to end up targeting town for their suspicions (since they won't target themselves or any partners).
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I believe you thought raerae was scum (regardless of your alignment). However, all things being equal, a scum player is more likely to end up targeting town for their suspicions (since they won't target themselves or any partners).
Given the setup, you are right that scum is more likely to mislynch a townie in their search for the other scum team, unless we're looking at an SK. Then they are at the same likelihood as a townie to mislynch, given they have no other info.
Assume a team of two looking for two scum in thirteen players vice a townie looking for four scum in fourteen. The percentage change is small, but there. The problem with figuring this out is not knowing if it is 3, 4, or 5 scum in this game. (I am assuming no more than 5 -- 6 in 15 sounds too high.)
I guess this isn't really responding to you, but I am seeing your point.
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Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Side note, why do we think these two people were killed, galz makes sense to me seeing as he's usually a very helpfull townie,(did anyone have suspicions of galz?) but raerae nk confuses me, I thought she was towny but it seems a lot of people felt she was scum, why would scum want to kill her, she's an easy mislynch to force.
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Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Side note, why do we think these two people were killed, galz makes sense to me seeing as he's usually a very helpfull townie,(did anyone have suspicions of galz?) but raerae nk confuses me, I thought she was towny but it seems a lot of people felt she was scum, why would scum want to kill her, she's an easy mislynch to force.
On raerae, I think actually I was the only real pusher of her case. I guess scum could have killed her to cast suspicion on me. To that I would say why would I, as scum, push a case so hard publicly just to NK her that night?
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But I don't think casting suspicion on you is a viable reason to nk her. I guess if anything there's a bit of wifom you could have nk'd her to cast suspicion on yourself just to make this argument and gain town cred. Your opening post of this day read very towny to me so I don't actuall believe my above statement, it is however a possibility.
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*gloating about being right about Cuzz*
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I think two possible scum motives are "Who's on the other scum team?" and "Who's not going to be doctored if there are x-shot doctors?" Neither of them would have looked likely to be doctored. Another good reason to kill Galz would be "Well if he's Town he's likely to find us out."
With raerae, two possibilities jumped out at me, as ash has noted: 1) it was by an ash scum-team led by ash who thought raerae was on the other team, or 2) someone wanted us to think it was by an ash scum-team. 1) seems unlikely, and 2) also seems unlikely (although less so) because we're probably not going to fall for 1). However, ash jumping in with "It can't possibly have been me!" introduces 3) it was by an ash scum-team so that ash can say "It can't possibly have been me!" to try to reduce suspicion on him.
Also, I don't know if this will be helpful, but it seems most likely that Galz had a hand in raerae's death.
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I wonder if the maquis/ shapeshifter thought they were killing town or the other team when they targeted Galz? Did anyone express much of a scumread on him yesterday? I think that's an avenue worth pursuing.
Eevee - scumGalz was defending you pretty hard. This could be scumGalz defending a team-mate or scumGalz buddying up to a towny, though. People who are more familiar with Galz's meta might be able to glean some useful information about Eevee from this.
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Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Side note, why do we think these two people were killed, galz makes sense to me seeing as he's usually a very helpfull townie,(did anyone have suspicions of galz?) but raerae nk confuses me, I thought she was towny but it seems a lot of people felt she was scum, why would scum want to kill her, she's an easy mislynch to force.
In multiball, its often better for scum to target the other scum team, since it reduces their likelyhood of being nk'd (especially in this set-up, where if we have a vig, she's likely one-shot [gender pronoun based purely on my own speculation about what flavor my brother would choose for the vig.])
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Dont have time to long post right now but I want to have a chat about Ashersky and mcmc. They are two people that really stood out from me from yesterday (and I want to reread to make sure I'm remembering things correctly so if I say anything thats not correct please correct me).
Ashersky: I really didn't like how he was moving about his vote at the end of the day yesterday. It gave me an impression of "I want to maintain my reads but I want to kill who we can kill."
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
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Mhm, I don't have good grasp of what's going on and our day 1 was quite a beast to re-read. I spent the last 10-20 pages vehemently defending Cuzz, didn't succeed. I'm quite conflicted what to do now.
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Whoever killed Galzria was probably just taking out what they thought was a fearsome townie. I had some suspicions about Galzria--I guess he does lurk as scum!--but very few people seemed to share them. Well, I mean, I didn't push for him at all, so enver mind that. I think a lot of us picked up on there being something offa bout him, but there were other explanations, like him just being mafia fatigued.
The raerae kill.. whoever did that probably hoped they were shooting scum. I'd say she was looking scummier after Cuzz's flip.
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We also need to look at shraeye and yuma. On the one hand, Shraeye tunneled hard on Cuzz, had everyone (including me) buying his arguments, but on the other hand, would a scum player really ever tunnel that hard on anyone? It seems dangerous.
I still read townie on Shraeye.
Yuma's fast wagon on Shraeye also needs to be examined, but I have no idea what to make of it. On the surface it seems very townie, but... I don't know, it bothers me. That might just be residual suspicion of yuma, though, from when he was on my wagon.
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Interesting that the raerae kill could easily have been intended to incriminate ash or to reduce suspicion of him, depending on which wine you think is poisoned. Or it could have had nothing to do with him whatsoever.
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but on the other hand, would a scum player really ever tunnel that hard on anyone? It seems dangerous.
I still read townie on Shraeye.
I think scum shraeye would do that if that's what he thought Town shraeye would do.
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Whoever killed Galzria was probably just taking out what they thought was a fearsome townie.
That is a good point. I know in previous games as scum I've always had cross-hairs on Robz and Galz simply because I was scared I wouldn't be able to fool them for long.
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Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Yeah, that's what I meant by this: "Galz being on-wagon and scum means very little to me in multi-ball". Sorry if I was unclear. I stated the conclusion before the reasoning, and then provided an example to argue against the "scum would split up on this town wagon" idea, which would be typical play for scum in non-multi-ball.
HOWEVER, given that both kills were on wagon, I think it suggests that scum is slightly less likely to be on-wagon.
However, however, as noted by Jimmmm/Glooble scum in multi-ball for some reason likes to try to shoot the other team (fear of being NKed, I guess...). They might have targeted the non-them on-wagon figuring it was a good place to gun for scum. (I will note that M-VI showed how stupid of a strategy this is...which makes me conflicted, because 1 of 2 things happened: 1. scum is pursuing a bad strategy, and thus is benefiting town, which I want them to keep doing, OR 2. scum is not pursuing a bad strategy in which case we should assume they weren't gunning for the other team, and thus that we benefit from analyzing these for typical kill-reasons: i.e. WIFOM, PR-hunting, kill-the-persecutor, or eliminate strong town.)
Galzria makes sense in either case: he was scummy enough that I could see targeting him trying to hit other team, or trying to hit PR. He's known as a strong enough town player, that they could have hit him for being strong town.
raerae makes almost no sense in either case, unless it had to do with Jimmmmm/ashersky, or possibly shraeye/munch (if they were worried about her reading them better, but I doubt that reason personally as she had something approaching town-reads on them, and I think it's a generally bad reason. I mention it only for completeness).
However, (assuming raerae is the Mirror-Universe kill, which is a pretty safe assumption I think) whoever killed raerae must be partners with Galzria (or at least participated in discussion with Galzria about whether to kill her). Jimmmmm mentioned this already. I think in particular if raerae was killed for persecuting Jimmmmm for instance, then it behooves us to check Galzria for Galz-Jimmmmm interactions (I can't think of any off the top of my head, I can think of shraeye and Robz interacting with Jimmmmm but not Galz).
I guess I'll try to do that when I get a chance.
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Well the obvious me/Galz interaction is when I said I wouldn't lynch him yesterday.
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And Galz at one point said I was Towny if I recall correctly, but later had me on his list of lynch possibilities.
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Dont have time to long post right now but I want to have a chat about Ashersky and mcmc. They are two people that really stood out from me from yesterday (and I want to reread to make sure I'm remembering things correctly so if I say anything thats not correct please correct me).
Ashersky: I really didn't like how he was moving about his vote at the end of the day yesterday. It gave me an impression of "I want to maintain my reads but I want to kill who we can kill."
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
I expressed intent to hammer on page 43 with the stipulation that everyone answer the question cuzz posed,
Vote Count 1.15
Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
I was waiting for everyones answer, at the time raerae also pointed out cuzz had not yet explained his town read on jimm. As cuzz was the only lynch I expected, I felt the answer to these question would be very helpfull post flip. I then left, assuming the question would be answered in the time I was gone, I would come back and hammer once reading these answers and making sure it was the lynch we still wanted. When I got back on, 9 pages had been written and somewhere in there shraeye almost got lynched, there was noway I was hammering without reading those pages and I didn't have the time to read them then. When I woke up cuzz had been hammered.
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Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Yeah, that's what I meant by this: "Galz being on-wagon and scum means very little to me in multi-ball". Sorry if I was unclear. I stated the conclusion before the reasoning, and then provided an example to argue against the "scum would split up on this town wagon" idea, which would be typical play for scum in non-multi-ball.
HOWEVER, given that both kills were on wagon, I think it suggests that scum is slightly less likely to be on-wagon.
However, however, as noted by Jimmmm/Glooble scum in multi-ball for some reason likes to try to shoot the other team (fear of being NKed, I guess...). They might have targeted the non-them on-wagon figuring it was a good place to gun for scum. (I will note that M-VI showed how stupid of a strategy this is...which makes me conflicted, because 1 of 2 things happened: 1. scum is pursuing a bad strategy, and thus is benefiting town, which I want them to keep doing, OR 2. scum is not pursuing a bad strategy in which case we should assume they weren't gunning for the other team, and thus that we benefit from analyzing these for typical kill-reasons: i.e. WIFOM, PR-hunting, kill-the-persecutor, or eliminate strong town.)
Galzria makes sense in either case: he was scummy enough that I could see targeting him trying to hit other team, or trying to hit PR. He's known as a strong enough town player, that they could have hit him for being strong town.
raerae makes almost no sense in either case, unless it had to do with Jimmmmm/ashersky, or possibly shraeye/munch (if they were worried about her reading them better, but I doubt that reason personally as she had something approaching town-reads on them, and I think it's a generally bad reason. I mention it only for completeness).
However, (assuming raerae is the Mirror-Universe kill, which is a pretty safe assumption I think) whoever killed raerae must be partners with Galzria (or at least participated in discussion with Galzria about whether to kill her). Jimmmmm mentioned this already. I think in particular if raerae was killed for persecuting Jimmmmm for instance, then it behooves us to check Galzria for Galz-Jimmmmm interactions (I can't think of any off the top of my head, I can think of shraeye and Robz interacting with Jimmmmm but not Galz).
I guess I'll try to do that when I get a chance.
Thanks for clearing up the first bit, now for the second part are you saying that since it was galz teammates that killed raerae, and raerae pushed jimm, jimm is a potential scummate with galz. I can see this, I had suspicions of jimm for along time, though everything from yesterday is muddled and I remember I tunneled had on him and i think my case wasn't very good.
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ooh so much wifom in Jimm's posts. He points out that galz and jimm buddied untill jimm had some pressure on him and then galz distanced, this is a scummy thing to do. With jimm imediatly saying it I can't tell if that has town motives, "heres the interaction ill point it out because i'm town" or scum motives, "heres the interaction I hope I get town cred for bringing it up"
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That's just what I could think of off the top of my head - just trying to be helpful! I can see that the Jim/Galz scenario makes some sense, but it also gives us another possibility for the raerae kill: to try to implicate me.
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Thanks for clearing up the first bit, now for the second part are you saying that since it was galz teammates that killed raerae, and raerae pushed jimm, jimm is a potential scummate with galz. I can see this, I had suspicions of jimm for along time, though everything from yesterday is muddled and I remember I tunneled had on him and i think my case wasn't very good.
I was trying to say that if raerae was killed for suspecting Jimmmmm it only makes sense if galz was team-mates with jimmmmm. If it seems unlikely that they were team-mates then it is unlikely raerae was killed for suspecting Jimmmmm. Basically, Jimmmm-killed-raerae might have been disprovable, which would lend credence to other reasons to kill her.
Now, as it turns out (apparently, based on Jimmmmm's explanation of events), Galzria acted in a way towards Jimmmmm that can be attributed to a scum-mate. So, we can't disprove it. I'm not sure we should take the Galz-Jimmmm interaction as confirmation though. I mean the behavior cited is in keeping with scum interacting with basically anyone in multi-ball right? (I mean either Galz-Jimmmmm were team-mates or Galz didn't know Jimmmm's alignment. So he might distance himself from that read if he worried Jimmmmm would flip scum the same as if he knew Jimmmmm would flip scum.) I'm inclined to read it as slightly scummy, but given my former town-read of Jimmmmm overall, I'm going with a neutral read atm.
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I want to revisit my scumread on Eevee, in light of the fact that Eevee's principle defender--Galzria--flipped scum.
Of course there's two ways to see this.
1) Galzria's town read on Eevee, and adamant defense of him, was a lie, because Galz is scum, and he wasn't giving a real read. In this case, Eevee could be town or scum, but the case Galzria was presenting on Eevee being town was false.
2) Galzria's town read on Eevee was legitimate, and Galz was also buddying him. Something I know scum Galzria would do.
Also, if Galzria's read on Eevee was a lie and he did think Eevee was scum, there's some chance he would have shot him, probably.
So I guess this means I have to lessen my scumread of Eevee, since most of the evidence re: Eeve/Galz makes it LESS likely that Eevee is scum. Is there an error in my thinking?
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Hey, i'm pretty busy this week. Gonna try to get to this during the weekend. Don't go crazy and quicklynch people please.
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shraeye is obviously lying....look how he hasn't posted in any of his other games (like Pandemic IV)...we should just quicklynch him so that we can get that started without having to wait for him to defend his scummy hide here. :P
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In all seriousness. I agree with you regarding Eevee Robz. Galzria being scum re: Eevee makes him less likely to be scum. His interaction seems unlikely to be partner interaction (though by all means not impossible), therefore Eevee is less likely to be scum overall (he only has one team he can be on instead of 2). Also, Galz' read on him can be interpreted as a real read, thereby making him less likely to be on the opposing team (by the amount which you can trust Galz' read of Eevee).
All things considered, I'm leaning slight town on Eevee at this point.
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yay, things to analyze!
the scum-team with galz on it almost certainly killed raerae. The NK on raerae was most likely an attempt to get the other scum team. There were quite a few people who had a scum read on raerae, and ash was the one who pushed it the hardest. Ash has already addressed this, but I'm not sold on it. ash asked why he would push the lynch just to NK her later? well I'd assume that you would rater lynch her so you can NK someone else, plus if she's scum you get a little town cred. so FoS ash.
did galz think raerae was scum?
I think ash is a good target for the mirror universe cop tonight; if we don't lynch him.
I will have very limited access friday, Saturday, and sunday this week. sorry :(
who thought galz was scum? anyone? anyone who did should similarly have some suspicion.
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Dont have time to long post right now but I want to have a chat about Ashersky and mcmc. They are two people that really stood out from me from yesterday (and I want to reread to make sure I'm remembering things correctly so if I say anything thats not correct please correct me).
Ashersky: I really didn't like how he was moving about his vote at the end of the day yesterday. It gave me an impression of "I want to maintain my reads but I want to kill who we can kill."
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, is it just me, or are you suspecting me hard in like every game we're in together right now?
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yay, things to analyze!
the scum-team with galz on it almost certainly killed raerae. The NK on raerae was most likely an attempt to get the other scum team. There were quite a few people who had a scum read on raerae, and ash was the one who pushed it the hardest. Ash has already addressed this, but I'm not sold on it. ash asked why he would push the lynch just to NK her later? well I'd assume that you would rater lynch her so you can NK someone else, plus if she's scum you get a little town cred. so FoS ash.
did galz think raerae was scum?
I think ash is a good target for the mirror universe cop tonight; if we don't lynch him.
I will have very limited access friday, Saturday, and sunday this week. sorry :(
who thought galz was scum? anyone? anyone who did should similarly have some suspicion.
lio, I don't understand your bolded statment above. I made a statement: "why would I publicly push so hard to lynch raerae just to NK her that night" and you make a disconnected argument: "ash tried to lynch her but since it didn't work, he killed her at night instead."
MY point was that, why would I make such a public show of finding raerae scummy to the point of voting her for like 85% of D1 and THEN decide to kill her on N1, since I know that will make me highly suspicious the next day? (The answer here could be "if ash was a town vig, shooting raerae makes a lot of sense, given she was his top scumread")
Besides, I think multiple team mafia games, the incorrect assumption is to gun for the other team at night. Scum should try to kill town PRs, actually, or strong townies, so that the scum teams can try to lead town to lynch the other scum team, because lynching scum is a good thing, and a towny thing, so its in scums' best interest.
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I think ash is a good target for the mirror universe cop tonight; if we don't lynch him.
I am fine with this, btw, personally, since I am town. But I am not okay with this as a town member, because I want the MU Cop to find the other(s) MU member.
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sorry, I wasn't very clear.
let's assume you are scum. you want raerae dead because you think she is the other scum. You would like town to lynch her. If town lynches her you can NK someone else and so get two people you want to die dead. If town lynches her you get town cred if she flips scum which you think she will. You are going to insure raerae dies, but you would rather not have to do I yourself, so you try to get town to lynch her. This is why you would push raerae just to NK her. Also if she flipped scum you might get some town cred for having pushed her the day before. However, I guess you might not push her because if you push her lynch and then she dies at night you are suspected... which is exactly what happened. the benefits to you if she gets lynched are much greater than the suspicion you get if town doesn't.
My arguement is not terribly strong, and is and not reason enough alone to vote for ash, just something which makes me a little suspicious.
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I really think Ash is town. His antics at the end of yesterday put a huge onus on him to be right, he was so insistent. The fact that neither Cuzz nor raerae panned out as scum for him... well, I just think he was misguided townie. That's pretty dangerous play if he's scum. He's no IC, but my townread on him is as strong as it was yesterday.
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Robz, I wonder if you feel the same about shraeye.
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Robz, I wonder if you feel the same about shraeye.
I do NOT feel the same about shraeye.
He was largely absent from the end-of-day shenanigans (all things being equal, this is a scumtell). Now, I know he was busy, that's fine. But I really did expect him to express at least some skepticism that Cuzz was the right direction after the cop claim. He did not; his case that he thought was so full-proof remained so, to him.
Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
So if we're looking on wagon, I'm looking at shraeye and Munch. Off-wagon might be a BETTER place to look, but I'm not sure who is quite as scummy as shraeye and Munch there.
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Just went back to check who voted for who. Yuma is really the only person off-wagon I have much suspicion of.
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And I guess Jimm, if these assumptions about him and Galz are worthwhile.
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On wagon:
Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Off wagon: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz, Dsell, theorel
Above is what we know. I'd add Glooble to the list of on-wagon folks that bear looking at. Off wagon is harder, actually.
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On wagon: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Off wagon: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz, Dsell, theorel
Above is what we know. I'd add Glooble to the list of on-wagon folks that bear looking at. Off wagon is harder, actually.
Just feeling this out... It seems reasonable that Galzria's partner (partners?) are off-wagon. Or one of them is. Or there's only one. Who of mcmc, Jimm, Eevee, yuma, Dsell, or theorel are likely to be his partner?
Let's say I cross off Dsell, theorel, and mcmc there, the people that read town to me. That leaves yuma, Jimm, and Eevee. But like theorel and I discussed, Eevee is actually less likely to be Galz's buddy. Okay. So we are looking Jimm and yuma then. I should look back and see if anything fits a yuma-Galz scum team.
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On wagon: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Off wagon: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz, Dsell, theorel
Above is what we know. I'd add Glooble to the list of on-wagon folks that bear looking at. Off wagon is harder, actually.
Just feeling this out... It seems reasonable that Galzria's partner (partners?) are off-wagon. Or one of them is. Or there's only one. Who of mcmc, Jimm, Eevee, yuma, Dsell, or theorel are likely to be his partner?
Let's say I cross off Dsell, theorel, and mcmc there, the people that read town to me. That leaves yuma, Jimm, and Eevee. But like theorel and I discussed, Eevee is actually less likely to be Galz's buddy. Okay. So we are looking Jimm and yuma then. I should look back and see if anything fits a yuma-Galz scum team.
Further to this, it's reasonable to assume that the other scum team is easier found on-wagon. If I cross off myself and Robz (townread), that leaves Munch, shraeye, Glooble, Lio.
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
Clearly shraeye takes a cred hit with his vocal stance on the Cuzz lynch. He's probably the best bet for hitting scum on the wagon at this point. But then again, why be so vocal about a town lynch if you know he's town?
Glooble got a pass on D1 after a wagon formed...Lio keeps getting the newbie pass, but is making a ton of bad arguments (which sounds like newbie town, actually)...
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On wagon: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Off wagon: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz, Dsell, theorel
Above is what we know. I'd add Glooble to the list of on-wagon folks that bear looking at. Off wagon is harder, actually.
Just feeling this out... It seems reasonable that Galzria's partner (partners?) are off-wagon. Or one of them is. Or there's only one. Who of mcmc, Jimm, Eevee, yuma, Dsell, or theorel are likely to be his partner?
Let's say I cross off Dsell, theorel, and mcmc there, the people that read town to me. That leaves yuma, Jimm, and Eevee. But like theorel and I discussed, Eevee is actually less likely to be Galz's buddy. Okay. So we are looking Jimm and yuma then. I should look back and see if anything fits a yuma-Galz scum team.
Further to this, it's reasonable to assume that the other scum team is easier found on-wagon. If I cross off myself and Robz (townread), that leaves Munch, shraeye, Glooble, Lio.
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
Clearly shraeye takes a cred hit with his vocal stance on the Cuzz lynch. He's probably the best bet for hitting scum on the wagon at this point. But then again, why be so vocal about a town lynch if you know he's town?
Glooble got a pass on D1 after a wagon formed...Lio keeps getting the newbie pass, but is making a ton of bad arguments (which sounds like newbie town, actually)...
I keep forgetting the multi-ball (who coined this anyway, it's a terrible name) aspect. Shraeye could have felt Cuzz was on the other scum team.
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I strongly felt Cuzz was scum; his flip surprised me.
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I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
I didn't see where Robz said this; please direct me.
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Dont have time to long post right now but I want to have a chat about Ashersky and mcmc. They are two people that really stood out from me from yesterday (and I want to reread to make sure I'm remembering things correctly so if I say anything thats not correct please correct me).
Ashersky: I really didn't like how he was moving about his vote at the end of the day yesterday. It gave me an impression of "I want to maintain my reads but I want to kill who we can kill."
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, is it just me, or are you suspecting me hard in like every game we're in together right now?
To be fair, I have been scum quite often so I have "suspected" you quite a bit, yes. That said I have always been 100% truthful when I said that you are wrong. This time I actually think you are both wrong AND scum. :D.
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I disagree with everything Robz is saying (namely in 1314-1317). I will temper that statement with ZX threw me off a lot about Robz. I cant help but read a lot of his arguments as manipulative...
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I disagree with everything Robz is saying (namely in 1314-1317). I will temper that statement with ZX threw me off a lot about Robz. I cant help but read a lot of his arguments as manipulative...
I understand that, and won't fault you for that. Just keep in mind that just because I was scum in one game does not make me scum in another.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
Ok, strange. I don't get that interpretation at all from it.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
Robz, can you explain to me as clearly as possible why you think that Munch-Shraeye-raerae is not all town? I just don't understand what links us all together outside of the twinclaims. If it is just the twinclaims, what would that have to do with our alignments?
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
Ok, strange. I don't get that interpretation at all from it.
Are you saying you would kill raerae as scum?
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
Ok, strange. I don't get that interpretation at all from it.
Are you saying you would kill raerae as scum?
Now I'm ultra-confused. How does me saying "strange, I don't see how Robz's statement implies that Munch or shraeye would kill raerae" become me saying that I would kill raerae as scum???
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
Ok, strange. I don't get that interpretation at all from it.
Are you saying you would kill raerae as scum?
Now I'm ultra-confused. How does me saying "strange, I don't see how Robz's statement implies that Munch or shraeye would kill raerae" become me saying that I would kill raerae as scum???
It doesn't. I was making the senator-question joke.
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That's a terrible senator question. The obvious answer is
"no, I'm not saying that I'd kill raerae as scum. It would be dumb to think I was saying that based on reading my actual words".
Why would you be trying to push the idea that I would kill raerae?
Do YOU think I'm scum? Do you think that I would be likely to kill raerae if I were scum?
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That's a terrible senator question. The obvious answer is
"no, I'm not saying that I'd kill raerae as scum. It would be dumb to think I was saying that based on reading my actual words".
Why would you be trying to push the idea that I would kill raerae?
Do YOU think I'm scum? Do you think that I would be likely to kill raerae if I were scum?
As I said in my original post that you questioned, no, I do not think you (or Munch) would kill raerae if you (or Munch) were scum. I think that because she is the easy deflection target for both of you during lynch discussions. At least one of the three of you is most likely scum, so its best for the scum in that group to keep everyone alive to have more options to lynch. Now, instead of 1/3 chance, it's 1/2 chance.
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At least one of the three of you is most likely scum, so its best for the scum in that group to keep everyone alive to have more options to lynch.
Now here's the statement that makes no sense to me. can anybody explain this, or is it just something that's been said a lot?
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
Robz, can you explain to me as clearly as possible why you think that Munch-Shraeye-raerae is not all town? I just don't understand what links us all together outside of the twinclaims. If it is just the twinclaims, what would that have to do with our alignments?
Sure. You all voted the same way yesterday and took very similar positions. You all pushed and voted Cuzz, very strongly. You all fought with ashersky. So you have similar standpoints, plus your twinclaims already make you guys sort of your own "team" (I've noticed you all defending each other, even when supposedly unaware of each others' alignments). If you're all time, great, your buddying each other because of your IRL relationships primarily, I guess. But that's not how I see it. I find it far likelier--and deadlier--than there's scum hiding somewhere, using the other two as cover. And we know that scum is not raerae.
But no, I did not mean to imply that one of you killed raerae. I find it far, far more likely that if one of your are scum, you are of the opposite team as Galz, for precisely the reason that raerae's death reflects poorly on all of you.
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Sure. You all voted the same way yesterday and took very similar positions. You all pushed and voted Cuzz, very strongly. You all fought with ashersky.
I don't recall too much about TheMunch, I know he was on the Cuzz wagon. but I hardly think he was as vocal as me, I think that likely was a sheep-vote.
When I was suspecting Jimmmm as well, raerae was actually in the process of making a case on him. So I know me and her reached scum-conclusions on Jimmm independently and coincidentally at about the same time. Again, I don't recall what Munch said about Jimmm.
What did you say Munch?
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Sure. You all voted the same way yesterday and took very similar positions. You all pushed and voted Cuzz, very strongly. You all fought with ashersky.
I don't recall too much about TheMunch, I know he was on the Cuzz wagon. but I hardly think he was as vocal as me, I think that likely was a sheep-vote.
This is untrue, though I don't blame you for thinking it. The last 10 RL hours of Day 1--which you were absent from--involved Munch taking a starring role in the case against Cuzz. I argued with him quite a bit against the logic of lynching a claimed Cop. He even said the if people were afraid to hammer, he would unvote, let someone else vote, and then cast the hammer. So it wasn't just a sheep vote.
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I can't deny Munch seemed extremely eager to end the day, but I don't think his logic about Cuzz's claim was totally baseless. A cop who can only find a serial killer is not, IMO a high priority for protecting even in set ups where there definitely is a serial killer. In a setup that might not even have one its a silly reason not to lynch someone, especially seeing as roles are independent of alignment.
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I can't deny Munch seemed extremely eager to end the day, but I don't think his logic about Cuzz's claim was totally baseless. A cop who can only find a serial killer is not, IMO a high priority for protecting even in set ups where there definitely is a serial killer. In a setup that might not even have one its a silly reason not to lynch someone, especially seeing as roles are independent of alignment.
Well ultimately I did vote to kill him after his bad answers toward the end.
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I pushed Cuzz because of 545 (at least I think thats the number, in all of these pages I very well might have forgotten). I have no shame in that. The read was wrong, but posts like 545 and subsequent posts that shared a similar tone to 545 are my entire basis for a scum read. I dont think he defended himself well, especially because I now know that hes town (I'm guessing he really felt like SK cop was too good to let die day 1, which I obviously disagree with).
Regarding eagerness to end the day. I will not apologize for trying to end the day on page forty something (which is 100% the cause for "taking a starring role in the case against Cuzz"). You can disagree with me there but its just my opinion regarding the length of the day. I think even Robz mentioned that the length of the day was muddling his reads (other people might have also said this as well).
Lastly, I find it very likely that scum looking at a cop claim for not-their-team will want to keep that cop alive more than a VT. For a VT, who doesn't know which 2 scum teams exist, the cop that has a small chance of actually finding scum if that team even exists is not a high priority target (I agree with glooble).
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I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
I didn't see where Robz said this; please direct me.
Ashersky, can you explain this please.
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I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
I didn't see where Robz said this; please direct me.
Ashersky, can you explain this please.
Did you not see my back and forth with shraeye after he asked this?
Turns out Robz and I agree, scum!shraeye or scum!munch would NOT kill raerae because it hurts their position.
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I am going to bed now. Tomorrow is a work day and I can't say for certain that you'll hear from me Much before 5. Just a heads up.
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Did you not see my back and forth with shraeye after he asked this?
Turns out Robz and I agree, scum!shraeye or scum!munch would NOT kill raerae because it hurts their position.
I did read the entire back and forth with Shraeye. The question isn't however whether or not you think that scum shraeye/munch would kill raerae.
And I've now actually read the back and forth ~ 5 times now. I think I actually caught Ashersky making a scumslip. I mean a real scum slip, not the flimsy cases that are usually called scumslips. Ok stay with me guys
Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
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Did you not see my back and forth with shraeye after he asked this?
Turns out Robz and I agree, scum!shraeye or scum!munch would NOT kill raerae because it hurts their position.
I did read the entire back and forth with Shraeye. The question isn't however whether or not you think that scum shraeye/munch would kill raerae.
And I've now actually read the back and forth ~ 5 times now. I think I actually caught Ashersky making a scumslip. I mean a real scum slip, not the flimsy cases that are usually called scumslips. Ok stay with me guys
Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
I hope you convince enough people to lynch me, and that you are town. Because this will be hilarious for the spectators. Hell, I'm willing to claim right now, at L-whatever, just to prove the point of this silliness.
Munch, I really hope you are scum, because as town, you are really, really messing up here.
You are also calling the not Galz team as me and Robz, btw. Good job, game over!
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Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
Hey, what if there is only one team and an SK? Am I the SK? (I've never been SK, so that'd be cool.)
But anyway, here's the huge glaring hole in your argument:
If I'm on the not Galz team, and I killed raerae, who killed Galz?
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Ashersky, you pointed out the wrong 'glaring hole' in this argument. It's obvious that scumteamNotGalz killed Galz, and I don't see how saying that stops this argument. I don't buy it at all, because even if I agree with all the assumptions, and reasoning that Munch gives us (some of it is unclear; like what do you mean by "this scum killed raerae"?), then why is this a vote on ashersky?
I don't see where the scumslip is. If you're gonna build a case that you found a scumslip, you should probably quote the post in which you think the scumslip exists.
Did you not see my back and forth with shraeye after he asked this?
Turns out Robz and I agree, scum!shraeye or scum!munch would NOT kill raerae because it hurts their position.
I did read the entire back and forth with Shraeye. The question isn't however whether or not you think that scum shraeye/munch would kill raerae.
And I've now actually read the back and forth ~ 5 times now. I think I actually caught Ashersky making a scumslip. I mean a real scum slip, not the flimsy cases that are usually called scumslips. Ok stay with me guys
Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
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Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
Hey, what if there is only one team and an SK? Am I the SK? (I've never been SK, so that'd be cool.)
But anyway, here's the huge glaring hole in your argument:
If I'm on the not Galz team, and I killed raerae, who killed Galz?
Ah, I looked at this again, and now see that you think Munch is saying "ashersky killed raerae". He didn't. I'm still not sure what Munch is saying, but he definitely propositioned that you were on the non-GAlz team and that the non-galz team killed raerae.
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I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
This is the scumslip in question. Nowhere did Robz say that he thought that Munch/Shraeye killed raerae. I claim that Ashersky jumped to the conclusion that Robz actually did say "one of munch/shraeye killed raerae" because Ashersky is on the not-galz-scumteam and to a member of the not-galz-scumteam the scum they are looking for (galz team) are the ones that killed Raerae.
I'm not claiming that Ashersky killed Raerae. I'm saying that scum Ashersky is looking for are precisely the scum that killed raerae. So to Ashersky scum (galz team) is equivalent to "killed raerae".
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Did you not see my back and forth with shraeye after he asked this?
Turns out Robz and I agree, scum!shraeye or scum!munch would NOT kill raerae because it hurts their position.
I did read the entire back and forth with Shraeye. The question isn't however whether or not you think that scum shraeye/munch would kill raerae.
And I've now actually read the back and forth ~ 5 times now. I think I actually caught Ashersky making a scumslip. I mean a real scum slip, not the flimsy cases that are usually called scumslips. Ok stay with me guys
Assumptions:
Scum are actively scumhunting.
Scum team X is looking for scum team Y. Genuine scum reads will fall on scum team Y.
We know one scum team. We will call Y Galz' team.
Raerae was killed by Galz team.
Proposition:
Ashersky is on the team X (not Galz team).
Reasoning:
Robz states that "One of Shraeye/Raerae/Munch is scum".
If Ashersky is actively hunting scum as a member of team X, then in his mind the scum he is looking for is on Galz team. This scum killed Raerae so he makes the logical step (as scumteam X) to imply that this is synonymous to "scum that killed Raerae".
Vote: Ashersky
Wait, so you think I was bussing my partner raerae super-hardcore on D1? Did you see our interactions? We faked that fight? Now's the time where your twinclaim helps you, since you know if she could actually pull off a fake fight of that proportion. I don't know that I could.
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I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
This is the scumslip in question. Nowhere did Robz say that he thought that Munch/Shraeye killed raerae. I claim that Ashersky jumped to the conclusion that Robz actually did say "one of munch/shraeye killed raerae" because Ashersky is on the not-galz-scumteam and to a member of the not-galz-scumteam the scum they are looking for (galz team) are the ones that killed Raerae.
I'm not claiming that Ashersky killed Raerae. I'm saying that scum Ashersky is looking for are precisely the scum that killed raerae. So to Ashersky scum (galz team) is equivalent to "killed raerae".
Man, I hope to EVERYONE IN THE GAME "killed raerae" is equivalent to scum. Unless you are arguing that town killed raerae?
Yeah, I'm looking for the scum that killed raerae. The scum that was with Galz, since Galz's team didn't kill Galz.
So in this post, I'm on Galz's team? Or on raerae's team? Except raerae isn't scum!!!
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Ah, I looked at this again, and now see that you think Munch is saying "ashersky killed raerae". He didn't. I'm still not sure what Munch is saying, but he definitely propositioned that you were on the non-GAlz team and that the non-galz team killed raerae.
But didn't the Galz team kill raerae? One team killed galz, the other raerae. Why would the non-galz team kill raerae and the Galz team kill Galz. That doesn't make any sense.
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No, I am absolutely certain that the scumteam that Galzria was on DID NOT nightkill Galzria. I'll bet anything on that.
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So Munch's argument is...what?
What team am I on? The one with Robz where we decided to kill Galz? Or the one with Galz where we decided to kill Galz?
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What I am say is this:
When Robz said "One of Munch and Shraeye are scum," Ashersky's response was: "how could that possibly be? Scum killed Raerae." If Ashersky is on not-Galz-team then the scum that Ashersky is looking for is the same scum that killed Raerae, so they are equivalent.
PPE: Ashersky, to everyone in the game scum killed raerae. But if you are on a team different from galz, the ONLY scum you are looking for are the scum that killed raerae.
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Munch is saying that Ashersky made the illogical jump from scum to killed raerae. He's arguing that you did this because you're not interested in the scum that didn't kill raerae, because you already know who it is (yourself and team-mate). This was not an illogical jump, therefore the scumslip is wrong.
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Ah, I looked at this again, and now see that you think Munch is saying "ashersky killed raerae". He didn't. I'm still not sure what Munch is saying, but he definitely propositioned that you were on the non-GAlz team and that the non-galz team killed raerae.
But didn't the Galz team kill raerae? One team killed galz, the other raerae. Why would the non-galz team kill raerae and the Galz team kill Galz. That doesn't make any sense.
Aha, now I see I've misunderstood everything. Retract my statements, let me sort this out again.
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I will explain why it is not illogical in a moment...(I intended to include that at the end of previous post)
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Hey guys, I reread the quote that Munch provided, and I think found the scumslip. Bolded for emphasis.
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. Also, I have 0% of flipping town, and my partner Galzria and I developed this amazing new scum gambit where we NK one of us to throw everyone off. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
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Ashersky, could you please clarify this to me?
You have said that at least one of Munch/raerae/shraeye is scum; clearly it is not raerae.
Do you think that both me/Munch are scum?
Or do you think it is ONLY one of us?
If it is only one of us, is it me or Munch that is scum?
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Munch is saying that Ashersky made the illogical jump from scum to killed raerae. He's arguing that you did this because you're not interested in the scum that didn't kill raerae, because you already know who it is (yourself and team-mate). This was not an illogical jump, therefore the scumslip is wrong.
This is an illogical jump. Scum doesnt mean that you killed raerae (galz team) as scum could also be on the opposing team from galz (who killed Galz, not raerae).
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Hey guys, I reread the quote that Munch provided, and I think found the scumslip. Bolded for emphasis.
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. Also, I have 0% of flipping town, and my partner Galzria and I developed this amazing new scum gambit where we NK one of us to throw everyone off. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
haha, except I'm actually trying to figure out what's going on here. I think ashersky is saying that Munch is being silly. But I think the Munch honestly thinks he has something; I'm just trying to figure out what both parties mean.
I think theorel is about to clarify things; at least I hope so.
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Ashersky, could you please clarify this to me?
You have said that at least one of Munch/raerae/shraeye is scum; clearly it is not raerae.
Do you think that both me/Munch are scum?
Or do you think it is ONLY one of us?
If it is only one of us, is it me or Munch that is scum?
I think (thought?) that up to two of the three could be scum. That included raerae. Now she's gone, and town.
So I think that probably one of the two remaining is scum. Is it possible you both are? Sure, but I think it's unlikely.
Clearly Munch looks really scummy to me now. Although man, crazy theory tunneling Munch is usually town!munch.
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
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Robz, I wonder if you feel the same about shraeye.
I do NOT feel the same about shraeye.
He was largely absent from the end-of-day shenanigans (all things being equal, this is a scumtell). Now, I know he was busy, that's fine. But I really did expect him to express at least some skepticism that Cuzz was the right direction after the cop claim. He did not; his case that he thought was so full-proof remained so, to him.
Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
So if we're looking on wagon, I'm looking at shraeye and Munch. Off-wagon might be a BETTER place to look, but I'm not sure who is quite as scummy as shraeye and Munch there.
Let's take Robz post, to which I responded, in context. He's talking about shraeye at first. Then he makes the point that he believes there is scum amongst the munshraeray trifecta. Then, if we're looking on wagon, it's the remaining two of that trifecta.
We had previously already discussed what team killed who, so I think we were already agreed the Galz team killed raerae.
I fully admitted that I misread Robz intentions with this post. But remember, I disagreed with what I thought he was saying, which was that one of you two were scum that would kill raerae, whereas I thought if you were scum, you wouldn't.
If you want to take that to mean I am admitting that I know neither of you killed raerae because I am Galz's teammate and I killed raerae, that's your choice, I guess. But I don't see that leap making sense.
My clarification is:
Hey guys, I reread the quote that Munch provided, and I think found the scumslip. Bolded for emphasis.
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. Also, I have 0% of flipping town, and my partner Galzria and I developed this amazing new scum gambit where we NK one of us to throw everyone off. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
I defend (sort of) Munch and shraeye here as NOT Galz's partner. Am I doing that because I am Galz's partner? Hmmm...that makes a lot of sense as scum! That's exactly how I'd play it! Woo-hoo! We caught me!
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
ahhhhh, that does make sense. Thanks theorel.
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Fixed the quoting error at the end:
Robz, I wonder if you feel the same about shraeye.
I do NOT feel the same about shraeye.
He was largely absent from the end-of-day shenanigans (all things being equal, this is a scumtell). Now, I know he was busy, that's fine. But I really did expect him to express at least some skepticism that Cuzz was the right direction after the cop claim. He did not; his case that he thought was so full-proof remained so, to him.
Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
So if we're looking on wagon, I'm looking at shraeye and Munch. Off-wagon might be a BETTER place to look, but I'm not sure who is quite as scummy as shraeye and Munch there.
Let's take Robz post, to which I responded, in context. He's talking about shraeye at first. Then he makes the point that he believes there is scum amongst the munshraeray trifecta. Then, if we're looking on wagon, it's the remaining two of that trifecta.
We had previously already discussed what team killed who, so I think we were already agreed the Galz team killed raerae.
I fully admitted that I misread Robz intentions with this post. But remember, I disagreed with what I thought he was saying, which was that one of you two were scum that would kill raerae, whereas I thought if you were scum, you wouldn't.
If you want to take that to mean I am admitting that I know neither of you killed raerae because I am Galz's teammate and I killed raerae, that's your choice, I guess. But I don't see that leap making sense.
My clarification is:
I actually disagree with Robz that Munchraeye would take out raerae, if either one of them is scum. Having her seem scummy, especially after the Cuzz flip, would actually help them, since a few of us at least felt that at least one of the three was scum. Also, I have 0% of flipping town, and my partner Galzria and I developed this amazing new scum gambit where we NK one of us to throw everyone off. That would have bought him/them a day as we lynched raerae out of the three of them.
I defend (sort of) Munch and shraeye here as NOT Galz's partner. Am I doing that because I am Galz's partner? Hmmm...that makes a lot of sense as scum! That's exactly how I'd play it! Woo-hoo! We caught me!
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
I thought this was going to be your argument, actually. But Robz never made the "Galz's partner was off-wagon" argument. So it doesn't work to say. Appreciate the thought, though.
I do think Galz's partner was off-wagon, btw.
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
Thank you! You get me. I argue its a scumslip; I dont know if it is just a mistake. But this is exactly what I am trying to say.
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How does the rest of the world feel about there needing to be at least 1 scum in Munch/Shraeye right now?
I know ashersky's and Robz's ideas.
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How many does it take to lynch? Do we have enough online right now to lynch that clear scum ashersky?
Munch, shraeye, theo, ash...not enough. Who else is around?
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How does the rest of the world feel about there needing to be at least 1 scum in Munch/Shraeye right now?
Save this for D3. Let's lynch confirmed scum ashersky!
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
This sounds like you're telling us that Galz had one partner. When did we learn that piece of info? I have no idea how big the scumteams are.
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
This sounds like you're telling us that Galz had one partner. When did we learn that piece of info? I have no idea how big the scumteams are.
I'd guess a two 2-man teams or a 3-man team and an SK. Although that may be a little small for a town this size...
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
I thought this was going to be your argument, actually. But Robz never made the "Galz's partner was off-wagon" argument. So it doesn't work to say. Appreciate the thought, though.
I do think Galz's partner was off-wagon, btw.
Okay, trying again...full clarification of what happened.
Robz says: "one of munch-shraeye-raerae is scum, not raerae."
He then says: "Galz' partner probably not on wagon" (He did in fact say this ashersky, you quoted it when you said the supposed scumslip)
Ashersky says: "I don't think munch-shraeye would kill raerae".
Munch says: "Why do you think that scum = killed raerae? Is it because you killed Galzria? I see no other reason to make that assumption."
ashersky says: "Why are you accusing me of being partners with Galzria?"
@shraeye
1. you'll notice I also pluralized proposition to propositions...but Robz only offered one proposition.
2. If I had said partners you would be accusing me of suggesting that Galzria unequivocally has multiple partners? So, the only acceptable wording to talk about people on Galzria's team is with specified uncertain pluralization.
I'm seriously not going to be that careful...sorry.
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@shraeye: I still feel like the summation of your arguments yesterday were entirely scummy. It seemed like you were most interested in getting a lynch that wasn't you (or possibly a team-mate) rather than actually building a coherent argument. So, I still find you the scummiest player in the game. Munch I'm more ambivalent on. I don't hold that there must be scum between the two of you, but I see where Robz is coming from.
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Nevermind, I mixed up scumteams...the jump was illogical (The argument I thought I was going to make was based on the idea that given Robz' propositions that Galzria's partner was off-wagon, then munch/shraeye would be required to be not Galzria's partner. And this would imply that munch/shraeye had killed raerae. But it implies the opposite (i.e. munch/shraeye had to kill Galzria)).
So, to fully clarify:
Robz said "I thought one of munch/shraeye/raerae are scum, it's not raerae clearly."
Ashersky said "I disagree with this, I don't think munch/shraeye would shoot raerae."
Munch said "this is an illogical jump".
It is an illogical jump. It could be a scumslip, it could just be a mistake/misreading.
I thought this was going to be your argument, actually. But Robz never made the "Galz's partner was off-wagon" argument. So it doesn't work to say. Appreciate the thought, though.
I do think Galz's partner was off-wagon, btw.
Okay, trying again...full clarification of what happened.
Robz says: "one of munch-shraeye-raerae is scum, not raerae."
He then says: "Galz' partner probably not on wagon" (He did in fact say this ashersky, you quoted it when you said the supposed scumslip)
Ashersky says: "I don't think munch-shraeye would kill raerae".
Munch says: "Why do you think that scum = killed raerae? Is it because you killed Galzria? I see no other reason to make that assumption."
ashersky says: "Why are you accusing me of being partners with Galzria?"
So did I make a scumslip? Or an illogical jump?
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My claim is that the illogical jump (from "scum" to "killed raerae") is a scumslip because this is a mistake that someone on the not-galz scumteam is liable to make.
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My claim is that the illogical jump (from "scum" to "killed raerae") is a scumslip because this is a mistake that someone on the not-galz scumteam is liable to make.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SAY SCUM =/= KILLED RAERAE? I don't get it Munch. Scum killed raerae, unless you have more info you aren't sharing.
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My claim is that the illogical jump (from "scum" to "killed raerae") is a scumslip because this is a mistake that someone on the not-galz scumteam is liable to make.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SAY SCUM =/= KILLED RAERAE? I don't get it Munch. Scum killed raerae, unless you have more info you aren't sharing.
Some scum killed raerae. The other scum team killed galz. Thus "scum" is not synonymous with "killed raerae".
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My claim is that the illogical jump (from "scum" to "killed raerae") is a scumslip because this is a mistake that someone on the not-galz scumteam is liable to make.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SAY SCUM =/= KILLED RAERAE? I don't get it Munch. Scum killed raerae, unless you have more info you aren't sharing.
Some scum killed raerae. The other scum team killed galz. Thus "scum" is not synonymous with "killed raerae".
But "killed raerae" is synonymous with "scum." This is the all oranges are fruit but not all fruit are oranges thing.
Anyway, like I said, lead the lynch, man. Then you'll feel horrendous tomorrow.
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My claim is that the illogical jump (from "scum" to "killed raerae") is a scumslip because this is a mistake that someone on the not-galz scumteam is liable to make.
WHY DO YOU CONTINUE TO SAY SCUM =/= KILLED RAERAE? I don't get it Munch. Scum killed raerae, unless you have more info you aren't sharing.
Some scum killed raerae. The other scum team killed galz. Thus "scum" is not synonymous with "killed raerae".
But "killed raerae" is synonymous with "scum." This is the all oranges are fruit but not all fruit are oranges thing.
Anyway, like I said, lead the lynch, man. Then you'll feel horrendous tomorrow.
I'm not sure if you understand what the word synonymous means...
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@ashersky:
You made an externally illogical jump (not internally illogical). It is either a scum-slip or an error-presumably a misreading. It could in fact be an error from misreading and you could still be scum. I don't think arguments based on specific wordings are ever worth pursuing, because this is a casual game and people aren't that careful.
I'm still generally inclined to find you slightly scummy. I think your over-reactive defense was silly, especially because defended yourself so strongly from being Galzria's partner when he accused you of the opposite. OTOH, assuming that was a valid misinterpretation it lends further support to the idea that it was in fact just an error earlier. And so, I think the scumslip argument holds no water. Nonetheless, you're scummier for your reaction IMO. But, I'd rather look back at things that happened yesterday to work towards a target for today.
Also, you are entirely wrong in your argument with theMunch. He's arguing that we were talking about fruit and you assumed we were talking about oranges. And you keep arguing back that oranges are fruit. True but irrelevant.
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Also, you are entirely wrong in your argument with theMunch. He's arguing that we were talking about fruit and you assumed we were talking about oranges. And you keep arguing back that oranges are fruit. True but irrelevant.
This is a surprisingly accurate analogy.
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@ashersky:
You made an externally illogical jump (not internally illogical). It is either a scum-slip or an error-presumably a misreading. It could in fact be an error from misreading and you could still be scum. I don't think arguments based on specific wordings are ever worth pursuing, because this is a casual game and people aren't that careful.
I'm still generally inclined to find you slightly scummy. I think your over-reactive defense was silly, especially because defended yourself so strongly from being Galzria's partner when he accused you of the opposite. OTOH, assuming that was a valid misinterpretation it lends further support to the idea that it was in fact just an error earlier. And so, I think the scumslip argument holds no water. Nonetheless, you're scummier for your reaction IMO. But, I'd rather look back at things that happened yesterday to work towards a target for today.
Also, you are entirely wrong in your argument with theMunch. He's arguing that we were talking about fruit and you assumed we were talking about oranges. And you keep arguing back that oranges are fruit. True but irrelevant.
Okay. So can we lynch me now? It's clear I've lost.
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It is certainly an illogical jump... could be a scumslip but i would guess that it isn't, it seems he missunderstood the post. oh an guys... can we please refer to them as "mirror-univers" and "not mirror-universe". we can abrevviate it MU. it just seems a lot less confusing to do it this way. so galz was on MU, MU killed raerae, and non-MU killed galz. we've been assuming that it wasn't a vig+roleblock/doctor save... which seems reasonable because the odds of a vig bieng confident enough night one AND a doctor saving successfully in one night seem miniscule.
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I think munch is saying that ash assumed that munch/shraeye did not kill galz, which he could only know if he killed galz. Is this correct?
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I think munch is saying that ash assumed that munch/shraeye did not kill galz, which he could only know if he killed galz. Is this correct?
yes.
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I think munch is saying that ash assumed that munch/shraeye did not kill galz, which he could only know if he killed galz. Is this correct?
This isn't precisely it, but its the gist, yes.
PPE: Ninja'd by theorel
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@ashersky:
You made an externally illogical jump (not internally illogical). It is either a scum-slip or an error-presumably a misreading. It could in fact be an error from misreading and you could still be scum. I don't think arguments based on specific wordings are ever worth pursuing, because this is a casual game and people aren't that careful.
I'm still generally inclined to find you slightly scummy. I think your over-reactive defense was silly, especially because defended yourself so strongly from being Galzria's partner when he accused you of the opposite. OTOH, assuming that was a valid misinterpretation it lends further support to the idea that it was in fact just an error earlier. And so, I think the scumslip argument holds no water. Nonetheless, you're scummier for your reaction IMO. But, I'd rather look back at things that happened yesterday to work towards a target for today.
Also, you are entirely wrong in your argument with theMunch. He's arguing that we were talking about fruit and you assumed we were talking about oranges. And you keep arguing back that oranges are fruit. True but irrelevant.
Okay. So can we lynch me now? It's clear I've lost.
The only reason you'll definitely lose by being lynched is if you are the only living player on your team. If that's the case, then we should indeed lynch you. If you just mean you lost the argument, well that tends to happen when you argue very loudly (loudly being many posts with exclamation points) about unrelated things.
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I think munch is saying that ash assumed that munch/shraeye did not kill galz, which he could only know if he killed galz. Is this correct?
yes.
When did I say or assume they didn't kill Galz? I said/assumed they didn't kill raerae.
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Have you even read any of my posts?
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@ashersky:
You made an externally illogical jump (not internally illogical). It is either a scum-slip or an error-presumably a misreading. It could in fact be an error from misreading and you could still be scum. I don't think arguments based on specific wordings are ever worth pursuing, because this is a casual game and people aren't that careful.
I'm still generally inclined to find you slightly scummy. I think your over-reactive defense was silly, especially because defended yourself so strongly from being Galzria's partner when he accused you of the opposite. OTOH, assuming that was a valid misinterpretation it lends further support to the idea that it was in fact just an error earlier. And so, I think the scumslip argument holds no water. Nonetheless, you're scummier for your reaction IMO. But, I'd rather look back at things that happened yesterday to work towards a target for today.
Also, you are entirely wrong in your argument with theMunch. He's arguing that we were talking about fruit and you assumed we were talking about oranges. And you keep arguing back that oranges are fruit. True but irrelevant.
Okay. So can we lynch me now? It's clear I've lost.
The only reason you'll definitely lose by being lynched is if you are the only living player on your team. If that's the case, then we should indeed lynch you. If you just mean you lost the argument, well that tends to happen when you argue very loudly (loudly being many posts with exclamation points) about unrelated things.
I don't lose the game by being lynched. I lose the argument.
I do think town will put themselves in a much harder position to win if we lynch me.
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I dont see my vote moving off Ashersky for the foreseeable future.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
You did it before this, but here's your own clarification post on the assumption that they didn't kill Galz.
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Have you even read any of my posts?
I did. And re-did.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
You did it before this, but here's your own clarification post on the assumption that they didn't kill Galz.
Okay, now I think you are twisting my words.
In that quote, I say I thought Robz thought they killed raerae. I then said I thought they didn't (in later posts). Right?
You are inferring that, because I thought they didn't kill raerae, they also didn't kill Galz?
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Ok guys!
This argument (between ashersky, Munch, shraeye, theorel) has gone on for 4 pages, and it makes very little sense to me still.
Let us put a cap on it and wait for other people to chime in.
We're inundating the thread with what are quickly becoming meaningless posts to me.
Ashersky, stop proclaiming loudly and sarcasticly (?) that we should just lynch you, or we will. It's becoming frustrating.
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By saying that you don't think they would kill raerae (in that context), you implied that they COULDN'T have killed galz. this is because you were responding to robz simply saying one of them was scum. all scum killed either raerae or galz.
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Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
This is what I was referring to. I took it to mean he thought they'd kill raerae. I guess it doesn't say that explicitly, though.
You did it before this, but here's your own clarification post on the assumption that they didn't kill Galz.
Okay, now I think you are twisting my words.
In that quote, I say I thought Robz thought they killed raerae. I then said I thought they didn't (in later posts). Right?
You are inferring that, because I thought they didn't kill raerae, they also didn't kill Galz?
NO, definitely not that.
Robz' original post: "munch-shraeye are scum".
You changed it to: "munch-shraeye killed raerae." (then argued why this was NOT true).
The argument is, you changed "scum" to "killed raerae". You've stated you did so through misreading. Munch has argued you did so by eliminating the "killed Galzria" option.
This has nothing to do with what you said later, it's entirely contained in the misreading.
Last post, if you still don't understand just stare at those two statements until you do, or give up. It really doesn't matter, The only person that thinks you're scum for it is munch.
(I think shraeye is right that this should stop, and I'm going to bed so I give up.)
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NO, definitely not that.
Robz' original post: "munch-shraeye are scum".
You changed it to: "munch-shraeye killed raerae." (then argued why this was NOT true).
The argument is, you changed "scum" to "killed raerae". You've stated you did so through misreading. Munch has argued you did so by eliminating the "killed Galzria" option.
This is very clear, and makes complete sense. Munch is arguing (per Theo) that I switched out the bolded parts of those statements, and I did that because I am scum.
More specifically, I am Galz's partner, who did kill raerae, so when I argue that Munch-Shraeye did not kill raerae, it's because I know it for a fact.
I now believe I completely understand the case for my scumslip.
I also think it is ridiculous, and not a scum slip. I am not scum.
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I am here and getting my initial thoughts down and will respond to posts.
On wagon: TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, ashersky (6)
Off wagon: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Dsell, theorel (6)
So from my perspective there are 6 potential scum players on wagon and 5 (because I am taking myself out of the mix) off wagon. At least one scum was on wagon in Galz. So assuming--and yes this is just an assumption and not really based on anything--that the combined scum teams split more or less evenly on/off Cuzz wagon there is a greater chance of finding scum off the wagon then on...
But I have a kind of a hard time finding scum there... Jimmmm to an extent, along with mcmc--both were kinda pseudo-on the wagon or at least expressed willingness to be on the wagon. Dsell-no, me-no. theorel is just hard to read, no? Eevee I want to read as town.
As for on the wagon: I would put Glooble and shraeye toward the front, with Robz, themunch and lipoli in the middle. I continue to have a town read on ash.
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Just went back to check who voted for who. Yuma is really the only person off-wagon I have much suspicion of.
anything specific you want to say here?
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and oh my goodness... it is far too late to be having the sort of conversation you four are having and make any sense out of it. But from what I got out of it I have one question? Why are we using up 4 pages of posts to discuss semantics when there is 40+ (well probably about 20+) pages worth of solid interactions from yesterday, voting history/patterns and associations to look at?
Oh and ash... please don't self vote. You look like you might be trending toward that direction. even if themunch drives you crazy, don't self vote. I have a town read on you and I do not think that it is pro-town for a townie to self vote. So, if you are town. Don't. If you do I am going to have to assume that you are in fact scum and will vote for you. So don't!
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Okay, here's what I think the ash/Munch argument is:
Statement A: scum <=> killed raerae
Statement B: killed raerae => scum
Statement C: scum => killed raerae
Munch's argument is this: ash declared statement A, ie both B and C. But from a Town point of view, we know statement B (with a very high probability) but not statement C. In fact, statement C is false, since there are scum (either the SK or the other scumteam) who didn't kill raerae (assuming Galz' team did). Statement C is only true if the only scum you are looking for are Galz' team-mates, and the only people doing that are members of the other scum team/SK. This is a valid and logical argument, and I don't see why ash has such a hard time understanding it. I'm not saying the only explanation is that ash is scum, but the argument is sound.
tl;dr ash said killed raerae is equivalent to scum, and while killed raerae implies scum, they are not equivalent except from the point of view of the non-Galz scum team/SK.
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and oh my goodness... it is far too late to be having the sort of conversation you four are having and make any sense out of it. But from what I got out of it I have one question? Why are we using up 4 pages of posts to discuss semantics when there is 40+ (well probably about 20+) pages worth of solid interactions from yesterday, voting history/patterns and associations to look at?
Oh and ash... please don't self vote. You look like you might be trending toward that direction. even if themunch drives you crazy, don't self vote. I have a town read on you and I do not think that it is pro-town for a townie to self vote. So, if you are town. Don't. If you do I am going to have to assume that you are in fact scum and will vote for you. So don't!
Don't worry yuma, I won't. If I was going to, I would have long ago. It is clearly anti-town to self-vote this game.
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I oppose lynching ashersky. I think he is town. I see the scumslip argument, ashersky didnt react well to it, but people say stuff like that all the time. Like theorel said, we arent that careful with our posts, it's a casual game.
Votr: shraeye continues to be my course of action.
Its funny, I feel enough facts point to me being town that i dont feel the usual need to appear towny.
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I agree that it isn't necessarily a scumslip, but I still think it's a valid argument. I'll have to have another read of shraeye in light of what we now know and then look at whether I want to continue pursuing that.
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Oh, I just had a terrible thought last night.
I realized that if a cop had a "town" result, it really is just a "at least not my specific type of baddie" result. This was probably mentioned before.
Don't out yourself to proclaim anyone town, because they may actually be the badguy that you can't detect.
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The terrible thought being that a cop might say "hey Mr.ThatGuy is town".
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Well yeah. Obviously we're all expecting that our remaining two Cops got non-X results, otherwise they probably would have claimed by now, and no one's expecting a Cop to claim "Hey look I got a non-X result on so-and-so", unless they're about to be lynched. Ideally our Cops will be alive towards the end of the game so they can compare notes.
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That's what I'm thinking. Although, if I were cop and I had a scum result. I'd still let day2 brew in its normal way and then reveal much later in the day what my results were.
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Well that's true too. Maybe someone got a scum result, but if so I can't imagine they'd wait terribly much longer to let us know.
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Quark's funeral arrangements are full of surprises.
Much to his chagrin, Rom does not inherit the bar. Only a few days after the horrific murder, workmen are seen lowering a sign that says "Coming Soon: Morn's Bar"
Meanwhile, Rom visits Major Kira to see about a peculiar bequest.
"No," she says, clearly annoyed. "Odo didn't make any preparations for his death. I'm sure he wouldn't want a Bajoran ceremony, I have no idea what his people do. Why?"
"Well, uh, my brother made very specific provisions that his funeral be at the same time as Odo's."
"What?"
"And that, uh, '...any mourners choosing to attend Odo's service be bribed up to 2 strips of latinum to switch.'"
"Rom. Get out of my office before I make you wish we still had a doctor."
Vote Count 2.1
ashersky (1): The Munch
shraeye (1): Eevee
Not voting: shraeye, ashersky, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, yuma, Dsell, theorel
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Special Thanks to Jorbles for some fun flavor suggestions.
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Okay so I'm caught up, though I reread that whole munch/ash/theo/robz thing about 6 times trying to understand what you all were saying, I didn't make it too the end untill the last time someone should have let me know you all start making sense toward the end. Through this whole thing, I find ash scummy for his defensiveness, he definetly read caught scum for me, I think he realized he over reacted and then switched to the oh I don't care just kill me defense that seems to be working in a lot of games(though I don't get why).
Theorel you are easily me top town read, I know eevee had said there was nothing you had said that you couldn't say as scum, but I believe through this argument you remained consistent(or at least the most consistent) and you made a good case that wasn't tunneled, you left the case open to have everyone discuss, this reads extremely towny to me.
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That's what I'm thinking. Although, if I were cop and I had a scum result. I'd still let day2 brew in its normal way and then reveal much later in the day what my results were.
I agree with this, if someone got a scum result you should let the day go on and watch how your scum interactes with people, this could be very good for finding any scum partners.
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I think Munch's scum-slip has some merit. I definitely understand his case, and ashersky's reaction looked really panicky. So Munch has risen in my estimation and ashersky has fallen, but I'm far from convinced.
I don't think Munch's initial argument was complicated enough to warrant the four pages of bickering it generated.
Is there scum among Munch and Shraeye? I have no idea. I think it's highly possible they're both scum, but on separate teams. That would make sense with shraeye getting the ball rolling on the Cuzz wagon, then TheMunch pushing it through at the end. But I think Galz technically started the wagon, so I'm not sure his teammate would have wanted to be on it, at least not as vocally as shraeye. If shraeye was on the non-MU team (Maquis, I guess, since if shraeye was SK I highly, highly doubt he would have risked leading a wagon like that) then I could see Munch pushing Galz's wagon through to lynch, maybe, especially if he had a legitimate scumread on Cuzz. That would have been a risky plan, but if Cuzz had flipped scum it would have made both of them look really good, so Munch might have judged it to be worth the risk.
So in summation, if shraeye is scum, he's likely Maquis (the team that killed Galz.)
Of course we might have MU and a changeling. But if that's the case, I think shraeye is likely town. I just don't see an SK putting himself out there like that day one.
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A thought I just had: is it worth remembering that scum have less scum targets? So, from scum's point of view, Cuzz was less likely to be scum than he was from Town point of view? Does this mean scum would be less likely to push hard for a particular lynch, because they're less likely to get Town cred from hitting scum?
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But no, I did not mean to imply that one of you killed raerae. I find it far, far more likely that if one of your are scum, you are of the opposite team as Galz, for precisely the reason that raerae's death reflects poorly on all of you.
(He's talking to Shraeye about Shraeye and TheMunch)
I'm catching up with this game, and even though this will be totally irrelevant now, I really, really agree with this. I am wary when I super agree with Robz because he is very good as scum, but I get a strong town read from this (and other posts of his) because it is just so identical with my thinking. I think Munch is the more likely scum candidate because several posts of his on day 1 really rubbed me wrong (but didn't bother others so much). Or Shraeye might easily be scum. He is good. But I haven't (yet) gotten such a scummy read on him.
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so... galz was scum right....? I am thinking doing a reread on him might clue us into potential scum partners. Now, I have been scum with galz before (ZM1)--and I think that others who have been scum with galz should add their own bit as well--but one thing I remember about him, and I think I shared this in another game, was that Galz is fully ready and willing to buss as mafia. He said to me in the quicktopic that we shared that he is unlikely to chainsaw or defend a scummate. I don't know if he would be willing to start cases on players, but he might...
So what I am looking for are people that came under a bit of heat and to which, Galz did not defend, but instead added to the flames.
- From this I doubt that Eevee is Galz's partner. He was pretty adamant in his defense all game long. Like really, really adamant.
- He has an interesting post about lurkers... January 09, 2013, 1:54:03 am. Here he basically says that outside of lio--who he has no basis of comparison for--everyone is posting about the same that he would expect. Now, since we know Galz was scum my bet is that he would have potentially turned on a partner and brought heat against them if that player was lurking. So I am leaning toward thinking that the lurkers at that point, theo, themunch, glooble, dsell aren't his partners.
- his big post is also a bit telling January 10, 2013, 10:08:34 am. here he analyzes cuzz, jimmm, shraeye and mcmc. He has a townie read on mcmc, slight town read, but could lynch read on shraeye, slight scum read off Jimmmm, and voted Cuzz.
- He does however, later express a willingness to lynch Glooble, but doesn't change his vote.
- From this list provided by Cuzz (Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.), galz says he only has a town read of raerae...
- and his last post is an FOS at the people that were on the shraeye wagon and me for starting it.
so in summary:
1. ashersky - scum read from the shraeye wagon FOS and the Cuzz wagon
2. Robz - really not mentioned at all, reads wise, but has a constant conversation with him, but was on the shraeye wagon FOS
3. yuma - only read me via the shraeye wagon FOS at the end.
4. Eevee - strong town read all game, but was on the shraeye wagon FOS
5. Shraeye - slight town read, but could lynch
7. Glooble - doesn't think scummy for lurking, but would be willing to lynch
9. liopoil - scummy because on the cuzz wagon
10. mcmcsalot - town read
11. Jimmmmm - slight scum read and was on the shraeye wagon FOS
12. theorel - not much of anything about theorel, not scummy because of lurking
13. TheMunch - scummy because on the Cuzz wagon
14. Dsell - not much about Dsell, but not scummy because of lurking.
So if I had only this to go off, I would be most interested in voting Jimmm or Glooble or possibly shraeye. From this alone I wouldn't lynch Eevee, Dsell, mcmc or theorel. But thankfully, this isn't all I have to go off.
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Is there scum among Munch and Shraeye? I have no idea. I think it's highly possible they're both scum, but on separate teams. That would make sense with shraeye getting the ball rolling on the Cuzz wagon, then TheMunch pushing it through at the end.
But I think Galz technically started the wagon, so I'm not sure his teammate would have wanted to be on it, at least not as vocally as shraeye. If shraeye was on the non-MU team (Maquis, I guess, since if shraeye was SK I highly, highly doubt he would have risked leading a wagon like that) then I could see Munch pushing Galz's wagon through to lynch, maybe, especially if he had a legitimate scumread on Cuzz. That would have been a risky plan, but if Cuzz had flipped scum it would have made both of them look really good, so Munch might have judged it to be worth the risk.
So in summation, if shraeye is scum, he's likely Maquis (the team that killed Galz.)
Of course we might have MU and a changeling. But if that's the case, I think shraeye is likely town. I just don't see an SK putting himself out there like that day one.
What do you feel about Munch? Could he be on Galz's team? Could he be on another team? or SK?
Also, could you say more about how you think it's highly possible I'm scum? I seem to recall you having a strong townread on my during day 1. I just don't see completely where the new outlook came from.
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You're not one of my strongest scumreads shraeye. I was just commenting on you and the munch because someone was asking what everyone thought about you two. If the munch is scum, I think he could be either type of scum. The way he pushed the lynch would have been risky if he galz's teammate, but its a risk I could see him going for.
Putting aside the wagons I'd say I have slight town reads on both of you. All jaws trying to say was that I didn't agree that one or the other of you had to be town. Given that we have 2 teams, I could see that, or neither of you being scum, or both.
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A thought I just had: is it worth remembering that scum have less scum targets? So, from scum's point of view, Cuzz was less likely to be scum than he was from Town point of view? Does this mean scum would be less likely to push hard for a particular lynch, because they're less likely to get Town cred from hitting scum?
The first part of this confuses me. I think you mean, assuming X number of scum in the game, while town can scum hunt for X players, scum can only scum hunt for X-their own scum team, so they actually have a harder time numbers-wise to catch scum. It's is true that they have less scum to hunt for, but they are hunting from a smaller pool, since they can discount partners, so it probably doesn't affect them as much as you think.
As for not pushing hard on a lynch because they won't get as much town cred, wouldn't that apply the same for town players? I don't think it's a factor--I think scum wants to lynch the other team just as much as town, and won't dial it back because they won't get enough pats on the back.
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@yuma on Galz as scum: I think if he made lists of scumminess/towniness, etc., his partner(s) are there. I do think he'd bus, no question. I actually think he was self-conscious of the lurking as scum thing, which is why he talked about it so much. I think it's possible his partner(s) lurked, so Galz made the "no one is lurking by their own standards" statement so often. I'd guess the lower posters, Glooble maybe, could be where we need to look for the other MU scum.
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Well yeah. Obviously we're all expecting that our remaining two Cops got non-X results, otherwise they probably would have claimed by now, and no one's expecting a Cop to claim "Hey look I got a non-X result on so-and-so", unless they're about to be lynched. Ideally our Cops will be alive towards the end of the game so they can compare notes.
Unless the second "team" is SK.
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Well yeah, obviously if that's the case then we're left with a named VT. But that wouldn't fall under "ideally", at least from the point of view of Cops.
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Had a read of raerae to see if any of her reads could help. They didn't. The only significant read she had was a scum read on me. Null reads on Eevee (and didn't like any of the cases on him) and Munch. I think her clashes with ash were mostly emotion based rather than based on a scum-read. I don't think she ever gave a particular read on him. Would there be any point in her neighbour/s claiming? Probably not, unless she gave a strong read in the neighbourhood QT that she hasn't given in-thread. Of course, that could be manipulated by scum.
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Thought on Jimmmmm: I know a few folks have expressed a scum read on the man, but I think that's coming from him trying to contribute to the game positively.
Like his recent post fishing for the neighbor. I don't think he was fishing, just thinking things through and offering up ideas.
Town read on Jimmmmm at this point.
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Okay, gave Cuzz a read too.
His main Town reads were Dsell, theorel, Robz and myself. I tend to agree with that for the most part.
His main scum reads were Eevee, ash, shraeye, Munch and mcmc. Again, fairly in line with my feelings. He was pushing pretty hard for Eevee at one point, and while I didn't think it made Eevee as scummy as he did, I agreed with much of what he said.
He was also going pretty hard at ash towards the end of the day. I'm not really sure how I feel about ash at this stage, still have to give him a re-read at some point, and look closer at Cuzz' case on him.
I think you know how I feel about shraeye; probably my biggest scum read at the moment.
Not sure about Munch, haven't paid that close attention to him, but will try to develop an opinion of him.
As I've said, mcmc has felt a bit off to me this game, though I'm still not sure if that makes him scum.
Anyway, I think we definitely need to include these 5 in the people who we look closely at today.
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A day 2 post count would be helpful. I could support a D2 lurker lynch.
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Well yeah, obviously if that's the case then we're left with a named VT. But that wouldn't fall under "ideally", at least from the point of view of Cops.
Um...no, we're left with a named unknown alignment.
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Yes, you're right of course.
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Alright, let's see if I can figure out what I think on everyone...still hard to keep them all straight.
1. shraeye: still scummy for the way he was pushing Cuzz/Jimmmmm yesterday. His play today has been less scummy to me, maybe he's backing off because of the heat he took yesterday? scumScore: 40
2. Eevee: Okay, so yesterday I wasn't willing to accept Galzria's read on him. Today, I know Galzria has flipped scum, and come to the conclusion that his read here was as genuine as if Galzria had flipped town (since the interactions don't make sense as scum-scum interactions). I still think Galzria might be mistaken here, but generally I have found Eevee less scummy throughout end-of-day yesterday and today so far. Add in that I find it unlikely that Eevee is Galzria's partner, and I'm left with a slight town-read. scumScore: 27
3. Jimmmmm: I didn't find him scummy yesterday. Given raerae's flip and Galzria's flip, I'm finding him slightly scummier, and in the end he gets a slight scum-read. scumScore: 33
4. ashersky: I really don't know here. I dislike his reaction to the "scumslip" thing, which he apparently still doesn't understand. (since his "oh, I get it" post was still incorrect...NO ONE THINKS YOU ARE GALZRIA'S PARTNER, you can reread my brief "clear" post with that in mind if you actually do want to understand it). I'm leaning scum here based on his activity, but I understand that that's a pretty common occurrence for him. I think he may be a player with a completely different mindset/approach to the game generally, which makes him read scummy to me. Trying to temper my scumread...scumScore: 33
5. Munch: I find it highly unlikely that he's Galzria's partner (I do agree with ash/Robz on the raerae thing). I had a slight scumread on him yesterday, but now I'm leaning slight town based on that. scumScore: 28
And I've got to go. You'll have to wait for the rest.
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interesting nobody has mentioned (until jimmmm's post) raerae and galz's ROLES. Galz's role never mattered because he's dead, but raerae must have neighbor partners. But I think I agree with Jimmmmm that unless claiming would give town lots of helpful info then the neighbors shouldn't claim just yet.
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Also think that Jimmmmm's latest post was station-y.
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Okay just looked up what neighbors are. From what I read shouldn't the remaining neighbors come out seeing as it is likely one is scum. If there are two or more, whichever one is town can come out and say who all the neighbors are. We then check these people out with previouse reasons for being scum.
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Also with raerae dead and being town, the remaining neighbors are less likely to trust eachother making the neighborhood an unreliable unit. So these people bieng known to mafia isn't a terrible thing.
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I think you know how I feel about shraeye; probably my biggest scum read at the moment.
That's a shame, you should change your opinion if you want to be a successful scumhunter.
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interesting nobody has mentioned (until jimmmm's post) raerae and galz's ROLES. Galz's role never mattered because he's dead, but raerae must have neighbor partners. But I think I agree with Jimmmmm that unless claiming would give town lots of helpful info then the neighbors shouldn't claim just yet.
liopoil,
Can you give me your new assessment of Eevee given that Galz flipped scum? Can you also comment on if there has to be at least one scum in Munch/shraeye?
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I am struggling with multimafia, since it means that some of the people that I am getting really townie vibes from could totally be scumhunting mafia. But anyway, I have town reads on the following people: Theorel, Robz, Mcmc (because of Robz), and Jimmmmm. I agree with Theorel that Jimmmm looks slightly scummier based on the deaths, but I still really think he is town.
Ashersky is looking really weird with this whole situation, but it does seem like something TownAsher might do. So I guess I am actually leaning town there too. And since I have a scumread on Munch, I am going to say that his case on Ashersky was scum scumhunting. It's possible that I'm wrong, but he has given me no reason to think he's townie.
Shraeye seems to be posting a lot without contributing a lot, and that is ScumShraeye, right?
I have very null reads on yuma and liopoil, although liopoil is contributing and doing a great job, gold star for you. I hope he is townie but I do not know. If not for Robz and his strong town read, I would probably also have a null to slight town read on mcmc.
Glooble actually reads town to me, but I know he is pro at scum, so I don't want to give him a pass yet. I may also be able to read him well at some point since I've played scum with him in the past.
I almost put Eevee in the town category. But I think I did have a sliiight scum read on him during part of day 1, and that makes me nervous because I have correctly pinpointed him as scum on day 1, only to turn away from that read later. He is a strong scum player because he always looks so darn townie. Still, I have a very slight and very hesitant town read on him.
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Shraeye seems to be posting a lot without contributing a lot, and that is ScumShraeye, right?
I have very null reads on yuma and liopoil, although liopoil is contributing and doing a great job, gold star for you. I hope he is townie but I do not know.
I'm very interested in this distinction. Can you say more about how liopoil's contributions are a great job and shraeye's are lacking substance?
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Okay just looked up what neighbors are. From what I read shouldn't the remaining neighbors come out seeing as it is likely one is scum. If there are two or more, whichever one is town can come out and say who all the neighbors are. We then check these people out with previouse reasons for being scum.
Where does it say this?
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Shraeye seems to be posting a lot without contributing a lot, and that is ScumShraeye, right?
I have very null reads on yuma and liopoil, although liopoil is contributing and doing a great job, gold star for you. I hope he is townie but I do not know.
I'm very interested in this distinction. Can you say more about how liopoil's contributions are a great job and shraeye's are lacking substance?
I just mean that for a new player, he is being really involved and having his own opinions and generally just playing well, especially for a first time player. I don't think you're playing badly or anything, I just haven't found your contributions particularly compelling or memorable, whereas usually when you're town, you're like at the front of everything and it's impossible to forget your opinions. I guess the real distinction is that I just wanted to give liopoil a pat on the back, which hopefully doesn't sound condescending or too buddyish.
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So people who joined the shraeye wagon late yesterday, including me, that was ash, Jimmm, Eevee, Robz, Cuzz (who is dead) as well as theorel, who voted for him earlier... Where all do you stand in regard to shraeye. I think some of you have already answered this...
theorel said: "1. shraeye: still scummy for the way he was pushing Cuzz/Jimmmmm yesterday. His play today has been less scummy to me, maybe he's backing off because of the heat he took yesterday? scumScore: 40"
Robz said: "He was largely absent from the end-of-day shenanigans (all things being equal, this is a scumtell). Now, I know he was busy, that's fine. But I really did expect him to express at least some skepticism that Cuzz was the right direction after the cop claim. He did not; his case that he thought was so full-proof remained so, to him.
Additionally, I've said this before, but I can't believe there isn't scum somewhere in the Munschraerae trifecta. We know it's not raerae. Munch is another person I'm watching especially closely. It would surprise me if all three of those people, so in sync, were town.
So if we're looking on wagon, I'm looking at shraeye and Munch. Off-wagon might be a BETTER place to look, but I'm not sure who is quite as scummy as shraeye and Munch there."
Eevee voted shraeye...
Jimmmm said: he would do a reread on shraeye, but instead reread raerae... "I agree that it isn't necessarily a scumslip, but I still think it's a valid argument. I'll have to have another read of shraeye in light of what we now know and then look at whether I want to continue pursuing that." Jimmmm let us know your thoughts once you do a reread.
ashersky, how do you feel about shraeye, you may have already said this but I couldn't find anything specific, although you have had interactions with shraeye today, as I skimmed through today's posts?...
yuma said: "So if I had only this (Galz's reads) to go off, I would be most interested in voting Jimmm or Glooble or possibly shraeye."
And I will say this that even yesterday shraeye wasn't my favorite lynch choice, that would have been Glooble, or perhaps mcmc? But we were at a ridiculous point where Cuzz was the only one with any votes and everyone was like, "Guess we have to lynch Cuzz no one else have any votes," and I had a strong enough town read that a slight scum read lynch was better than a Cuzz lynch. So for today, shraeye probably still isn't my favorite lynch candidate for today. But appears to be the favorite of some others that were on him previously, but only eevee has put a vote down.
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I was considering voting him, but decided I would rather sort out my thoughts on everyone first. (I'll probably finish that this evening).
One note though:
I think you know how I feel about shraeye; probably my biggest scum read at the moment.
That's a shame, you should change your opinion if you want to be a successful scumhunter.
This kind of post reads so scummy to me. (more-so I think because of O flipping scum in VIII). It reads to me "I'm going to belittle your opinions in order to make you change them". It reads manipulative to me, without any real merit. It's a lot like any emotional appeal, except that it's the sort of manipulation that really rubs me the wrong way. I'll admit that some of that is personal dislike of this sort of manipulation, but I do think it's fair to attribute a bit of scumminess to these kind of statements.
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just found this quote from Glooble:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you (this is refering to Cuzz) flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip."
after Cuzz was lynched, but before thread lock and flip...
This is interesting. (because I am more interested in finding Galz's partner, I am paying more attention to the galz part of this, but the fact that Glooble included shraeye in this is interesting)
1. Assuming here that Glooble is scum and on the scum team with Galz.
2. Neither Glooble nor Galz would know what the alignment of Cuzz was--he very well could have been opposing scum.
3. Glooble expresses a town read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum, but a potential scum read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum.
4. This is a win/win for Glooble!partner with Galz. Because if Cuzz is scum, he can now safely have a town read on his partner that won't be especially scrutinized. But if Cuzz is town, he can start a bussread on his partner, again w/o much scrutiny...
So I guess the question is this: would scum!Glooble express a strong town read on his partner? Now I guess he is actually expressing more of a scum read than a town read. Because from scum!Glooble's perspective, Cuzz was more likely to flip town--as scum!Glooble would know that Cuzz wasn't on a scum team with him, so even though he didn't know Cuzz's alignment, he suspected that Cuzz was perhaps more likely to flip town, so his read while potentially strong town was actually more setup to be a scum read...
I think Galzparner!Glooble could write something like this.
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I just haven't found your contributions particularly compelling or memorable, whereas usually when you're town, you're like at the front of everything and it's impossible to forget your opinions.
Isn't the compelling/memorable part of my contributions (regarding the Cuzz wagon, which I definitely was an instigator of) most of the reason that people are suspecting me today??
It seems that you're giving people here just an extra reason to find me scummy, and that reason rings false, because it seems in direct contradiction to the reasons that other people are having scumreads on me. It's just that when somebody says
"Shraeye seems to be posting a lot without contributing a lot, and that is ScumShraeye, right?" I think the reaction from people who already see me as scummy is "*nodnod* he ISSS scummy, I'm glad somebody else sees that".
When it should be "hey wait, I'm busy suspecting him because of his scummy contributions and now Dsell is saying that he isn't contributing a lot? :o"
It just looks like an easy way to fan the flames of a lynch that at this point does seem fairly likely.
In short; FoS: Dsell.
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I was considering voting him, but decided I would rather sort out my thoughts on everyone first. (I'll probably finish that this evening).
One note though:
I think you know how I feel about shraeye; probably my biggest scum read at the moment.
That's a shame, you should change your opinion if you want to be a successful scumhunter.
This kind of post reads so scummy to me. (more-so I think because of O flipping scum in VIII). It reads to me "I'm going to belittle your opinions in order to make you change them". It reads manipulative to me, without any real merit. It's a lot like any emotional appeal, except that it's the sort of manipulation that really rubs me the wrong way. I'll admit that some of that is personal dislike of this sort of manipulation, but I do think it's fair to attribute a bit of scumminess to these kind of statements.
I've found everyone having a townread on theorel very questionable,
but this post convinced me: he just sounds so towny. Townread on theorel.
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Hi guys, I'm sick and my brain is really scrambled right now, but needed to comment on the fact that raerae is a Neighbor, which I glossed over in the Day 2 opening post. Whoever she's neighbors with, they don't know each others' Alignments, so you actually have to be a little bit wary of sharing your info there. We have to consider the possibility--not a likelihood but a definite possibility--that she expressed some opinion in their qt that freaked out a scum, who killed her.
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Okay just looked up what neighbors are. From what I read shouldn't the remaining neighbors come out seeing as it is likely one is scum. If there are two or more, whichever one is town can come out and say who all the neighbors are. We then check these people out with previouse reasons for being scum.
Where does it say this?
The neighbor page on mafia wiki. I understand its not certain but I really think it would be helpful. The way I see it there are two likely possibilities, either two or three neighbors. Now with one dead and being town it creates five scenarios from this.
2N) raerae town & X town. In this situation the left over town player should come out and give us an insight into what was talked about in the qt.
2N) raerae town & X scum. In this situation the scum could lie two us about anything said in the qt.
so if there are two neighbors we cannot trust what the remaining one says as they could be scum.
3N) raerae town & X town & Y town. Same result as 2N all town.
3N) raerae town & X town & Y scum. The town member of this neighborhood should come out and name the other neighborhood player, we can then check these two people and see if they fit with any prior suspicious activity. Also the insight into raerae's thoughts could be helpfull.
3N) raerae town & X scum & Y scum. If they are on different teams, they should still help scum hunt the other one and come forward. These two scum being on the same team seems highly unlikely to me, as it has either given them a useless double qt(night talk) or a bastard day talk scum qt.
So if there are three,or more, members in the neighborhood, they should come forward as it should help us find scum.
If anyone finds a problem with my logic please let me know, this is what I have gathered from reading about the neighbor role.
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@yuma -- my read on Shraeye leans scummy, and he's on the would lynch list. But, I'm wary my scum read comes from him sounding a lot like old Shraeye, who read scummy but is town.
@yuma on Glooble -- great catch. I prefer the Glooble for the lynch today based on:
1) his D1 wagon that disappeared
2) his availability to post anytime the lurking came up, but lurking otherwise
3) his interaction with Galz that you point out
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My fear about the Shraeye/TheMunch "one of them is scum" discussion is what happens if we are both town? I have a town read on Shraeye for the most part but I fear that the "one of them is scum" has been pushed to such a degree that if we lynch either of us, the other is going to look so suspicious just because the other flipped town, and we are walking ourselves right into 2 mislynches for the price of one. I'm sure scum loves that.
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My fear about the Shraeye/TheMunch "one of them is scum" discussion is what happens if we are both town? I have a town read on Shraeye for the most part but I fear that the "one of them is scum" has been pushed to such a degree that if we lynch either of us, the other is going to look so suspicious just because the other flipped town, and we are walking ourselves right into 2 mislynches for the price of one. I'm sure scum loves that.
I have a mild scumread on you, but share the same fear.
Like, there are other people who agreed with me/Munch yesterday. But nobody's going "Oh look, liopoil also agreed with the Cuzz lynch; Glooble also bought shraeye's Cuzz case...well I guess one of shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum"
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My fear about the Shraeye/TheMunch "one of them is scum" discussion is what happens if we are both town? I have a town read on Shraeye for the most part but I fear that the "one of them is scum" has been pushed to such a degree that if we lynch either of us, the other is going to look so suspicious just because the other flipped town, and we are walking ourselves right into 2 mislynches for the price of one. I'm sure scum loves that.
I have a mild scumread on you, but share the same fear.
Like, there are other people who agreed with me/Munch yesterday. But nobody's going "Oh look, liopoil also agreed with the Cuzz lynch; Glooble also bought shraeye's Cuzz case...well I guess one of shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum"
I think at least one of Shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum.
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My fear about the Shraeye/TheMunch "one of them is scum" discussion is what happens if we are both town? I have a town read on Shraeye for the most part but I fear that the "one of them is scum" has been pushed to such a degree that if we lynch either of us, the other is going to look so suspicious just because the other flipped town, and we are walking ourselves right into 2 mislynches for the price of one. I'm sure scum loves that.
I have a mild scumread on you, but share the same fear.
Like, there are other people who agreed with me/Munch yesterday. But nobody's going "Oh look, liopoil also agreed with the Cuzz lynch; Glooble also bought shraeye's Cuzz case...well I guess one of shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum"
I think at least one of Shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum.
I think at least one of Ashersky is scum.
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My fear about the Shraeye/TheMunch "one of them is scum" discussion is what happens if we are both town? I have a town read on Shraeye for the most part but I fear that the "one of them is scum" has been pushed to such a degree that if we lynch either of us, the other is going to look so suspicious just because the other flipped town, and we are walking ourselves right into 2 mislynches for the price of one. I'm sure scum loves that.
I have a mild scumread on you, but share the same fear.
Like, there are other people who agreed with me/Munch yesterday. But nobody's going "Oh look, liopoil also agreed with the Cuzz lynch; Glooble also bought shraeye's Cuzz case...well I guess one of shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum"
I think at least one of Shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum.
I think at least one of Ashersky is scum.
The hilarity of your wrongness is awesome. Mods are cracking up, I'm sure. If you succeed in this crusade of yours, I look forward to pointing this out post-game, in the wake of a scum win indirectly caused by this.
You know who gets/got a lot out of picking out a supposed scum slip, berating the supposed slipper, and wasting four pages of discussion on it? Scum. You know who did that this game? You.
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The hilarity of your wrongness is awesome. Mods are cracking up, I'm sure. If you succeed in this crusade of yours, I look forward to pointing this out post-game, in the wake of a scum win indirectly caused by this.
Ashersky, at the same time you are posting that Munch is "cracking up the mods" with his hilarious conviction in wrong reads, you are also absolutely certain that one of munch/shraeye is scum and you just said one of shraeye/liopoil/glooble is scum.
I just see too many similarities between your conviction and Munch's conviction to even start to believe this defense from you.
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It's just that I don't see how, presuming that Munch is wrong in his read on you, his wrongness is somehow particularly hilarious. Are you double-town? Is he more wrong on you than he would be on somebody else? I don't understand the point of what you say.
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Yuma, I don't understand your argument for why I'm Galz's scumbuddy at all.
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Regarding Ashersky, I will admit that I found the scumslip because I was already quite suspicious of him. I mentioned this at the beginning of today but I developed my initial read on Ashersky because of the way he was behaving at the end of the day yesterday.
We're all talking about how scummy people were for pushing the cuzz lynch now that we know that hes town, and people think I'm scummy for wanting the day to end. These are all perfectly valid avenues for scumhunting. But I am surprised no one found nearly as suspicious the fact that Ashersky seemed to be waffling back and forth between lynching Raerae (whenever he seemed to convince anyone that it was a good idea; I think Eevee bit at least) and jumping back on the Cuzz wagon when that seemed like the lynch that was going through. I feel like this kind of waffling is significantly more suspicious than the people who pushed a case and stuck with it (even if the lynchee was town).
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Regarding Ashersky, I will admit that I found the scumslip because I was already quite suspicious of him. I mentioned this at the beginning of today but I developed my initial read on Ashersky because of the way he was behaving at the end of the day yesterday.
We're all talking about how scummy people were for pushing the cuzz lynch now that we know that hes town, and people think I'm scummy for wanting the day to end. These are all perfectly valid avenues for scumhunting. But I am surprised no one found nearly as suspicious the fact that Ashersky seemed to be waffling back and forth between lynching Raerae (whenever he seemed to convince anyone that it was a good idea; I think Eevee bit at least) and jumping back on the Cuzz wagon when that seemed like the lynch that was going through. I feel like this kind of waffling is significantly more suspicious than the people who pushed a case and stuck with it (even if the lynchee was town).
Munch, I don't think you are scummy for wanting the day to end. I think that was a pro-town thing in your favor, in my book.
I wanted to lynch raerae. I couldn't get it to happen. I jumped to the viable lynch.
Tunneling Munch used to be town munch. Is this that? Are you tunneling hardcore for town!cred?
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The hilarity of your wrongness is awesome. Mods are cracking up, I'm sure. If you succeed in this crusade of yours, I look forward to pointing this out post-game, in the wake of a scum win indirectly caused by this.
Ashersky, at the same time you are posting that Munch is "cracking up the mods" with his hilarious conviction in wrong reads, you are also absolutely certain that one of munch/shraeye is scum and you just said one of shraeye/liopoil/glooble is scum.
I just see too many similarities between your conviction and Munch's conviction to even start to believe this defense from you.
Being fairly certain one of a subset is scum is not so crazy. Not as crazy as being 100% sure one person is scum. And knowing that person's team. And who he night killed. All n D2.
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It's just that I don't see how, presuming that Munch is wrong in his read on you, his wrongness is somehow particularly hilarious. Are you double-town? Is he more wrong on you than he would be on somebody else? I don't understand the point of what you say.
It's hilarious because either he's town that's sooooo convinced and yet sooooo wrong, or he's scum pushing this case and convincing townies of its validity. That's funny to mods/spectators.
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@liopoil; please answer my questions in #1439
@mcmcsalot
But I don't think casting suspicion on you is a viable reason to nk her. I guess if anything there's a bit of wifom you could have nk'd her to cast suspicion on yourself just to make this argument and gain town cred. Your opening post of this day read very towny to me so I don't actuall believe my above statement, it is however a possibility.
mcmcsalot, please elaborate on your read on ashersky. What is it? What things make you think that?
For reference, below is ashersky's opening post of the day, which reads towny to mcmcsalot. I don't understand why.
Good job someone! Either SK or other scum team hit scum unless we have a vig.
Mirror Uni cop just became surely relevant.
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Just a thought on Galz to put down: I think Galz was in a fairly difficult situation in this game. He didn't want to be suspected enough to be lynched, but he wanted to be suspected enough to avoid being nightkilled by the other scum team/SK. I think people expressing Town reads on him and expressing a desire to not lynch him, as well as his scumhunting reputation, contributed to him being nightkilled. So I think the correct play by Galz' partner/s would be to try to cast some suspicion on him - not enough to get him lynched, but enough to make him seem less Towny and thus less likely to be nightkilled. That's not necessarily what they did, but I think that would have been the right thing to do.
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Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, you have posted a ton about ashersky. Please tell me about mcmc. You said you wanted to look at him, have you? What have you found?
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Shraeye: I think in this case it is silly to group shraeye and munch together, saying that one is likely scum. I didn't see them+raerae grouping together much yesterday. sure they were all on the cuzz lynch, but so were 5 others. I don't remember what eevee said about galz. eevee is acting very stationy I think, and i doubt whatever he said about galz would change that. I really don't want to reread that humongous D1...
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Mcmc, I don't see why the nieghbor(s) should claim. it doesn't neccessarily help town more than scum. also say there are two other nieghbors: they might not know that each other are town.
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@liopoil; please answer my questions in #1439
@mcmcsalot
But I don't think casting suspicion on you is a viable reason to nk her. I guess if anything there's a bit of wifom you could have nk'd her to cast suspicion on yourself just to make this argument and gain town cred. Your opening post of this day read very towny to me so I don't actuall believe my above statement, it is however a possibility.
mcmcsalot, please elaborate on your read on ashersky. What is it? What things make you think that?
For reference, below is ashersky's opening post of the day, which reads towny to mcmcsalot. I don't understand why.
Good job someone! Either SK or other scum team hit scum unless we have a vig.
Mirror Uni cop just became surely relevant.
So I meant to say opening posts. After reading the opening posts from both theorel and ash I got towny vibes from the two of them. I thought the descussion they were creating was pro town, thus I found them to be town. This is stemming from the fact that this is the first day 2 I have experienced as town. After reading all of day 2 so far, I know longer have a strong town read on anyone other than theorel. Ash is somewhat scummy to me because of the posts between munch and him. I also understand the argument that there is scum between you and munch. The argument for glooble makes sense to me as well. In fact I find myself agreeing with most peoples arguments, the thing that scares me is that it is most of you(ash/shraeye/munch) arguing for eachother. This could very well be scum on scum, town on scum, or town on town, and scum could be lurking wathcing this all go down. I would be interested in a Day 2 post count.
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Mcmc, I don't see why the nieghbor(s) should claim. it doesn't neccessarily help town more than scum. also say there are two other nieghbors: they might not know that each other are town.
This is exactly why I thought claiming would help, they cannot know there neighbor is town, in fact I think if one of the neighbors is town they should come out because raerae was town, her interaction with her neighbors haas to be of some help. It benefits scum to keep the contents of the qt a mystery, so if one of the members is town they should reveal this information, yes scum could come out, gain some town cred for doing so but it would still benefit town in the long run I believe. Also its not like the scum can trick us if there are two neighbors left, as I believe it is highly unlikely they are both scum.
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I really don't want to reread that humongous D1...
Let it be known that looooooooooong day1s are detrimental. I have looked at a few people and realized that I might have to go back to reread things. I really really don't want to. There's just too much crap to sift through to find out if what I'm looking for even exists.
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Mcmc, I don't see why the nieghbor(s) should claim. it doesn't neccessarily help town more than scum. also say there are two other nieghbors: they might not know that each other are town.
This is exactly why I thought claiming would help, they cannot know there neighbor is town, in fact I think if one of the neighbors is town they should come out because raerae was town, her interaction with her neighbors haas to be of some help. It benefits scum to keep the contents of the qt a mystery, so if one of the members is town they should reveal this information, yes scum could come out, gain some town cred for doing so but it would still benefit town in the long run I believe. Also its not like the scum can trick us if there are two neighbors left, as I believe it is highly unlikely they are both scum.
I disagree with part of this, her interaction with her neighbors does not have to be of some help. It could just be information that is all publicly available (i.e. raerae already posted it), or it could be information which isn't relevant (i.e. she had a scum-read on Galzria after day1). It could be confused/muddled reads which aren't terribly valuable. You should already know from Blitz mafia, information from a confirmed town is useful but not incredibly so.
If there is one neighbor, then claiming "neighbor" is essentially equivalent to claiming VT. It's useless to town because it actually tells us nothing about their alignment and it's useful to scum because it helps them direct their NKs.
If there are 2 neighbors, then the neighbor-claim is only a little better than that because it's confirm-able as a role, but it still doesn't give any information about alignment and is thus relatively useless to town, while being useful to scum.
Like any other potential claiming situation, it's only worth it to give additional information to scum if the information being given to town is more valuable. i.e. if raerae had some ground-breaking reads, that would be given more credence having come from a confirmed town. So basically, if it would be worth it to claim IC aggressively, then it would be worth it to claim neighbor to give that read. BUT, even then it's only worth it if we have 2 neighbors because we can't confirm the alignment of a single neighbor and thus don't know if they're trying to direct town with false information or not.
So, it is clearly (at least to me) a bad idea for a lone neighbor to claim.
Is it worth outing two players who would then be known not to have any protective (i.e. doctor/roleblocker), investigative (i.e. cop), or otherwise generally considered powerful role, simply to get the information from a town-player with only the slightest bit more information than you had, but no more information than you now have? I'm dubious.
to sum up: It is my opinion that as in all role-claiming situations, neighbors mostly shouldn't claim. They should only claim if they feel like the information they have, when cast in the light of "coming from one of raerae's neighbors" would result in a scum-lynch, when it wouldn't result in such a lynch otherwise.
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Actually, after typing that up, I guess I actually disagreed with all of it.
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Yuma, I don't understand your argument for why I'm Galz's scumbuddy at all.
is there anything in particular you don't understand? Let me see if I can clarify a bit.
I am not saying that you are Galz's scumbuddy. I don't know if you are or not. I analyzed Galz's interactions with everyone, and you were one person that stood out to me that could potentially be his scumbuddy. I then looked back a bit and saw your post about Galz. From there I tried to see if your post would make sense from a player that could be scumbuddy with Galz. I think it does. It doesn't mean that you are, but it means that that post doesn't exclude you from being... Does that make sense? Does that make sense to everyone?
I am not saying that Glooble is Galz's scum partner. I need to go back and look at things more and try and look at other players as well before I make that decision. But that post did jump out to me and could certainly be from scum!Glooble about his partner Galz.
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Okay, trying to finish sorting through thoughts:
6. mcmc: Robz' got a town-read here. I'm not sure I have any read here. I think I knew something about him previously, but right now I can only remember the disagreement I just had about neighbors claiming. Which while I think it's a request that ultimately benefits scum if followed through on, I don't necessarily think it's scum asking for it. I mean whatever, we've had plenty of differing opinions in this forum about claiming benefits, and so I don't get much of a read from it. Oh, starting to remember things now "Jimmmmm tried to trick me", "I'll hammer Cuzz", hmmm...Without Robz' read, I'd read him slight scum. With Robz' read, I read him very slightly scum. Scumscore: 31
7. liopoil: the newb. He's said stuff, I'd need to reread him to get a feel. Maybe someday I'll have a chance...not tonight though. scumScore: 30
8. Robz: I agree with him on lots of stuff. I can't decide if I should suspect him because I don't. But I don't, so I guess I should just go with it until something changes my mind. scumScore: 20
9. Glooble: the super-lurker because he has a real life with a job and can't post here 24/7. I dunno, I've not gotten the townie-vibe others have gotten, but I haven't gotten a scum-vibe (which some other players have also mentioned). I might try to reread him at some point as well, shouldn't be too hard. scumScore: 30
10. yuma: I'm not sure if I could pick out scum-yuma. I think he's a player that requires a smaller town to be able to really analyze what he's said. For now, he seems like typical town-yuma to me in his analysis and questions, town-guiding etc. scumScore: 25
11. Dsell: Scum-gambit? meh, I don't have any real reason to think so. Absent some compelling reasons, I'm pretty much not going to lynch him. If we're both still around at lylo I'll reconsider. scumScore: 20
Yeah, so I think shraeye is the best lynch from everyone so far. I'll try to reread the null reads to see if they change my mind. I still need to review Galzria and late-day-1 raerae. So, I'm gonna vote: shraeye for the moment, to see what might happen there.
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In response to queries about shraeye/Munch and raerae/Neighbor(s) I am especially wary. I am wary because both scenarios--as others have mentioned--result in us taking for granted assumptions that we can't prove.... We can't say absolutely that one of shraeye or TheMunch is scum, and it is pretty dangerous if we did. To say that would be like a three person cop investigation like Grujah did in MIX, but without the actual investigation. Same with the Neighbor(s)...
How many scum do we think we have? 3-5? Something like that? out of 15 players at the beginning? So just neutrally everyone has a 3-5/15 chance of being scum... so ~25%. Out of three random players there is a relatively good chance that one of them is scum. But I don't think that raerae/shraeye/themunch increases those odds. This is coming from me who was buddied/mirrored up pretty good in MVIII by scum!Frisk... to the extent that I had a town read throughout most the day on him because we had such similar reads. But honestly I hadn't really noticed that as much with shraeye/TheMunch/raerae. Has anyone actually gone back and analyzed their reads or has it just been a generalization w/o proof? If so, major FOS to anyone that hasn't gone back and proven their similarities. If nobody does this within the next little bit I will tomorrow.
Neighbor(s) I don't think should claim. The only advantage I see is like Robz said that a raerae expressed a read that spooked another Neighbor which could be beneficial for town to know. But is that worth outing them? I guess the real question is having them outing themselves--which then dwindles the population that could potentially have power roles, because in my mind in this game Neighbors are as close to VTs as everyone has some sort of role...? And I think the answer is no.
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But honestly I hadn't really noticed that as much with shraeye/TheMunch/raerae. Has anyone actually gone back and analyzed their reads or has it just been a generalization w/o proof? If so, major FOS to anyone that hasn't gone back and proven their similarities. If nobody does this within the next little bit I will tomorrow.
There were some similarities; but there was at least one difference I can recall (Munch had a scumread on Eevee; I disagreed entirely with munch's reasons for his vote).
I do think this has been a lot of generalization without proof. In the way that people are stating it enough times, that others are beginning to believe it as fact, even if it isn't.
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But honestly I hadn't really noticed that as much with shraeye/TheMunch/raerae. Has anyone actually gone back and analyzed their reads or has it just been a generalization w/o proof? If so, major FOS to anyone that hasn't gone back and proven their similarities. If nobody does this within the next little bit I will tomorrow.
There were some similarities; but there was at least one difference I can recall (Munch had a scumread on Eevee; I disagreed entirely with munch's reasons for his vote).
I do think this has been a lot of generalization without proof. In the way that people are stating it enough times, that others are beginning to believe it as fact, even if it isn't.
That Munch/shraeye/raerae had similar patterns and reads Day 1 might have been oversold at this point, but it's still basically true. They were three of the most vocal proponents of the Cuzz lynch, and each of them provided necessary pushes to keep the wagon going at certain junctures. Also, they did not criticize each other, and I can remember at least once or twice where one had one of the others' back.
They aren't identical people, obviously, but it's fairly clear to me that they operate as a mini-team of their own. This might just be because they are fairly close IRL. Truly, that could explain everything by itself. But if I were one of them, and I were scum, I would leverage that relationship/team mentality to hide amongst the other two.
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Re-read shraeye, and from where I'm sitting he has a number of strikes against him:
-The most obvious one is that he championed the lynch of a Townie.
-His second biggest scumread is another Townie (me, yes I know you don't know that, but it's there), against whom he was also campaigning quite strongly. These two cases have been his main two contributions to the game, so regardless of his alignment, he's been rather anti-Town.
-I still feel fairly strongly about my main case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg173890#msg173890) against him. In my opinion, he's been quite good at using arguments that sound a lot better than they actually are. I think that might be what Dsell was getting at: his "contributions" have seemed quite compelling but once you start taking them apart they are less so. For those who talk about scum narratives, the one I'm getting here is that shraeye has come into this game knowing that he needed to come across like he's genuinely scumhunting (yes I know multiple scumteams and that), and has ended up finding scumminess where there was little to none, and has put some spin on things to make them sounds scummier than they actually are.
-Also, how much weight this has I'm not entirely sure, but two big Town reads of mine are finding him scummy as well.
So yeah, still a scumread on shraeye. Also, for the record, I stand by my part in the shraeye wagon. I thought, and still do, that his would be a much better lynch than Cuzz', and was trying to get an alternative option for people to consider.
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Okay, re-read Galz to see what I could find. A lot of this will probably be similar to theorel's (I think) post, but meh.
He expressed a huge Townread on Eevee. That's really ballsy play if Eevee's his partner, and I wouldn't put it past him, but it seems very unlikely. Although, now that I think of it, the almost immediate interaction between them could have been planned? Still seems unlikely. So I'm inclined to agree that Galz genuinely thought Eevee was Town.
Here's another thing that caught my eye: he was agreeing with me a lot, but never said I was Towny. In fact he said I was at least somewhat scummy. He said my thoughts on Eevee had merit, and then said similarly about my case on mcmc. You can read that as an indication that I'm Galz' partner, and I guess I can understand why. But from my point of view he was either buddying me (which was probably working) or trying to cast suspicion on me in the case that he was killed. I don't really know what I'm getting at here, just something I noticed.
Then he expressed his four lynch targets: me, Cuzz, shraeye and mcmc. The question I would ask is, how likely do you think it is that Galz would include a partner of his in that list? It seems like the thing often done by scum, but perhaps this is a different situation since with multiple scum teams, his team makes up a smaller percentage of the population. If he did include a partner in that list, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. If he didn't, then he probably named people who he actually thought were scummy. In which case we really have Galz' famous scumhunting at work, which might still count for something. And again, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. Given that I also suspected both of these on my own, the idea that there's at least one scum between them is looking more and more likely to me.
Also, re-reading Galz I was getting Towny vibes from him, so I had to keep reminding myself that he was scum, so I've got to say that I'm really glad he's gone (no offense Galz if you're up there somewhere watching).
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Here's another thing that caught my eye: he was agreeing with me a lot, but never said I was Towny. In fact he said I was at least somewhat scummy. He said my thoughts on Eevee had merit, and then said similarly about my case on mcmc. You can read that as an indication that I'm Galz' partner, and I guess I can understand why. But from my point of view he was either buddying me (which was probably working) or trying to cast suspicion on me in the case that he was killed. I don't really know what I'm getting at here, just something I noticed.
Then he expressed his four lynch targets: me, Cuzz, shraeye and mcmc. The question I would ask is, how likely do you think it is that Galz would include a partner of his in that list? It seems like the thing often done by scum, but perhaps this is a different situation since with multiple scum teams, his team makes up a smaller percentage of the population. If he did include a partner in that list, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. If he didn't, then he probably named people who he actually thought were scummy. In which case we really have Galz' famous scumhunting at work, which might still count for something. And again, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. Given that I also suspected both of these on my own, the idea that there's at least one scum between them is looking more and more likely to me.
I am much more comfortable in thinking that there is scum within the three of mcmc/Jimmm/shraeye then I am in thinking that there is scum in raerae/shraeye/munch. Galz's trio actually has something of substance to base it off. It isn't surefire, but it is a lot better than raerae/shraeye/munch... But again has the same danger... For example: say if we lynch mcmc and say town!Jimmmm dies in the night that doesn't guarantee shraeye is scum... and could easily result in 2 mislynches before we finally realize that there wasn't scum in the mix... But I do think it is a better bet than heading down the other route.
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I agree, yuma.
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If I had to choose between Munch and mcmc I'd choose mcmc at this stage, so I guess I agree too.
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Here's another thing that caught my eye: he was agreeing with me a lot, but never said I was Towny. In fact he said I was at least somewhat scummy. He said my thoughts on Eevee had merit, and then said similarly about my case on mcmc. You can read that as an indication that I'm Galz' partner, and I guess I can understand why. But from my point of view he was either buddying me (which was probably working) or trying to cast suspicion on me in the case that he was killed. I don't really know what I'm getting at here, just something I noticed.
Then he expressed his four lynch targets: me, Cuzz, shraeye and mcmc. The question I would ask is, how likely do you think it is that Galz would include a partner of his in that list? It seems like the thing often done by scum, but perhaps this is a different situation since with multiple scum teams, his team makes up a smaller percentage of the population. If he did include a partner in that list, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. If he didn't, then he probably named people who he actually thought were scummy. In which case we really have Galz' famous scumhunting at work, which might still count for something. And again, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. Given that I also suspected both of these on my own, the idea that there's at least one scum between them is looking more and more likely to me.
I am much more comfortable in thinking that there is scum within the three of mcmc/Jimmm/shraeye then I am in thinking that there is scum in raerae/shraeye/munch. Galz's trio actually has something of substance to base it off. It isn't surefire, but it is a lot better than raerae/shraeye/munch... But again has the same danger... For example: say if we lynch mcmc and say town!Jimmmm dies in the night that doesn't guarantee shraeye is scum... and could easily result in 2 mislynches before we finally realize that there wasn't scum in the mix... But I do think it is a better bet than heading down the other route.
If I had to choose between Munch and mcmc I'd choose mcmc at this stage, so I guess I agree too.
why us two? You just said you had a scum read on shraeye and hes in both of the groups mentioned above.
Re-read shraeye, and from where I'm sitting he has a number of strikes against him:
-The most obvious one is that he championed the lynch of a Townie.
-His second biggest scumread is another Townie (me, yes I know you don't know that, but it's there), against whom he was also campaigning quite strongly. These two cases have been his main two contributions to the game, so regardless of his alignment, he's been rather anti-Town.
-I still feel fairly strongly about my main case (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg173890#msg173890) against him. In my opinion, he's been quite good at using arguments that sound a lot better than they actually are. I think that might be what Dsell was getting at: his "contributions" have seemed quite compelling but once you start taking them apart they are less so. For those who talk about scum narratives, the one I'm getting here is that shraeye has come into this game knowing that he needed to come across like he's genuinely scumhunting (yes I know multiple scumteams and that), and has ended up finding scumminess where there was little to none, and has put some spin on things to make them sounds scummier than they actually are.
-Also, how much weight this has I'm not entirely sure, but two big Town reads of mine are finding him scummy as well.
So yeah, still a scumread on shraeye. Also, for the record, I stand by my part in the shraeye wagon. I thought, and still do, that his would be a much better lynch than Cuzz', and was trying to get an alternative option for people to consider.
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why us two? You just said you had a scum read on shraeye and hes in both of the groups mentioned above.
Both of the sets of players yuma mentioned contained one Town, shraeye, and one other unknown, so the only real difference between Munshraerae and {Jimmmmm/shraeye/mcmc} for me is that Munch is in one and you're in the other.
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Someone asked for a day 2 post count... this isn't perfect, but hopefully kinda close...
1. ashersky - 228 total, 177 from day 1 leaving 51, 22%
2. Robz - 182 total, 169 from day 1 leaving 13, 7%
3. yuma - 82 total, 73 from day 1 leaving 9, 11%
4. Eevee - 126 total, 12 from day 1 leaving 4!, 2%
5. Shraeye - 94 total, 60 from day 1 leaving 34, 36%
7. Glooble - 45 total, 35 from day 1 leaving 10, 22%
9. liopoil - 46 total, 37 from day 1 leaving 9, 20%
10. mcmcsalot - 61 total, 48 from day 1 leaving 13, 21%
11. Jimmmmm - 147 total, 127 from day 1 leaving 20, 14%
12. theorel - 48 total, 26 from day 1 leaving 22, 46%
13. TheMunch - 69 total, 49 from day 1 leaving 20, 29%
14. Dsell - 33 total, 30 from day 1 leaving 3!, 9%
So looking at this, really surprised by low participation from eevee and dsell, really only 7 posts between them! Also shraeye and theorel have been much more active today than yesterday.... but then again so has everyone that was involved in that huge conversation, Themunch, ash, etc... The other surprise was relatively low numbers from Robz... but didn't he say somewhere that he was sick?
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why us two? You just said you had a scum read on shraeye and hes in both of the groups mentioned above.
Both of the sets of players yuma mentioned contained one Town, shraeye, and one other unknown, so the only real difference between Munshraerae and {Jimmmmm/shraeye/mcmc} for me is that Munch is in one and you're in the other.
I think the second set should be called McShraeJim.
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This game is just too big for me. My biggest read yesterday was that Cuzz was town, I honestly feel like.. I don't have any anymore. I'm reading alone, but just don't feel like I have anything to add.
Could there be scum in Munch, shraeye and raerae? Yes, they were all scumreads for me yesterday so I think it's possible. Not sure about it though. I think shraeye looks the scummiest, hence my vote.
I don't have any super strong town reads either. I don't like the scumslip-case against ashersky. Seems to be the kind of thing he gets mislynched for as town all the time. I don't think it makes him likelier to be town, but not any less likely either.
Day 1 is just too long to reread which is absolutely killing my abilities to play well here. Also, I think for some reason we haven't gotten much productive discussion in. Maybe it's because day 1 was so long, I know I haven't been able to get anything going either.
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Someone asked for a day 2 post count... this isn't perfect, but hopefully kinda close...
1. ashersky - 228 total, 177 from day 1 leaving 51, 22%
2. Robz - 182 total, 169 from day 1 leaving 13, 7%
3. yuma - 82 total, 73 from day 1 leaving 9, 11%
4. Eevee - 126 total, 12 from day 1 leaving 4!, 2%
5. Shraeye - 94 total, 60 from day 1 leaving 34, 36%
7. Glooble - 45 total, 35 from day 1 leaving 10, 22%
9. liopoil - 46 total, 37 from day 1 leaving 9, 20%
10. mcmcsalot - 61 total, 48 from day 1 leaving 13, 21%
11. Jimmmmm - 147 total, 127 from day 1 leaving 20, 14%
12. theorel - 48 total, 26 from day 1 leaving 22, 46%
13. TheMunch - 69 total, 49 from day 1 leaving 20, 29%
14. Dsell - 33 total, 30 from day 1 leaving 3!, 9%
So looking at this, really surprised by low participation from eevee and dsell, really only 7 posts between them! Also shraeye and theorel have been much more active today than yesterday.... but then again so has everyone that was involved in that huge conversation, Themunch, ash, etc... The other surprise was relatively low numbers from Robz... but didn't he say somewhere that he was sick?
Yes, oh I am in bad shape, friends. This is day 4 of the DC superflu for me, finally got worthless doctor to prescribe me antibiotics. Can't read full sentences right now.
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Yes, oh I am in bad shape, friends. This is day 4 of the DC superflu for me, finally got worthless doctor to prescribe me antibiotics. Can't read full sentences right now.
well if you really have the flu, those antibiotics are going to do nothing for you except reck havoc on your bowels... sorry to be off topic, but as a med tech in training this drives me nuts! Flu is spread by a virus, antibiotics are for bacteria. If you really have the flu I would treat the symptoms. Make sure you drink plenty of fluids, eat bananas and sleep. But if you have a bacterial infection, then perhaps the antibiotics are for you.
Rant over, and I do hope you feel better. I have heard the east coast is getting rocked with the flu... can't wait for it to come out west. No I mean I really can't wait, it will probably result in my department getting a bonus! Because of all the testing we will do for it!
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This game is just too big for me. My biggest read yesterday was that Cuzz was town, I honestly feel like.. I don't have any anymore. I'm reading alone, but just don't feel like I have anything to add.
Could there be scum in Munch, shraeye and raerae? Yes, they were all scumreads for me yesterday so I think it's possible. Not sure about it though. I think shraeye looks the scummiest, hence my vote.
I don't have any super strong town reads either. I don't like the scumslip-case against ashersky. Seems to be the kind of thing he gets mislynched for as town all the time. I don't think it makes him likelier to be town, but not any less likely either.
Day 1 is just too long to reread which is absolutely killing my abilities to play well here. Also, I think for some reason we haven't gotten much productive discussion in. Maybe it's because day 1 was so long, I know I haven't been able to get anything going either.
Earlier you mentioned you had so much town cred you didn't feel the need to act towny. Can you elaborate?
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Well, if someone built a case against me, I would obviously respond. It's what I spent most of last day doing, defending Cuzz or responding to people's suspicion on me. Now no one seems to find me scummy anymore and also the evidence kind of points to me being town, I feel this town is too big for me to handle and thread too long to reread, so I'm left with vague reads and nothing to say. That's why I'm underposting so much.
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so here is the reread of shraeye/munch/raerae
Raerae: is defended by shraeye over the "wearing" of pants... believes it is a "crappy case against eevee" had a townish read on Jimmm over the eevee-case... is concerned early on that she is lumped in with shraeye, but theorel (and at this point I agree)... notes that her and shraeye at that time were always going to be online together... first interaction with the Munch is toward mid-day (post 31 of raerae's) asking him about his reads... disagrees with themunch about a statement by dsell that themunch found scummy... big case on Jimmm preceded by shraeye, but the way it was presented was completely different. I could believe one was hiding behind each other if raerae went first, but shraeye went first... null read on themunch stated midgame... gets mad a cuzz's joke about the trio... agree's with shraye's argument about cuzz... a big reason for her vote on cuzz was his refusal to talk about Jimmm.... is confused when Robz votes shraeye after sheeping his scum read...
shraeye: says shraeye is wearing pants... calls out raerae for saying that someone?who I don't know called her scummy, when they didn't... finds raerae attractive (this is really, really scummy... I mean who else calls another player attractive? Just scum written all over this!) ... not a lot of analysis early as he was "saving up".... talks about eevee and jimmm, votes jimmm... and then cuzz and then jimmmm... calls out theMunch for "nonsense" for a non-argument vote on eevee.... asks everyone what they think about themunch.... talks about themunch being devastated after the switch game ... ask's ash about "Why attack Eevee's vote on Munch as scummy, but not attack Munch's or Robz's vote on Eevee?"....
this is what I have so far... and am going to post it now so I don't lose it, but now it is time to make tacos! so I'll finish it later.
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Day 1 is just too long to reread which is absolutely killing my abilities to play well here. Also, I think for some reason we haven't gotten much productive discussion in. Maybe it's because day 1 was so long, I know I haven't been able to get anything going either.
I'm never gonna stop saying this: you can sometimes say TOO much on day1s. At the end of the day yesterday, there were people who were holding off voting until EVERYONE had commented on this or that.
There are times where that is useful, but at this point hardly anyone has gone back to check, or has the effort to do it (kudos to those who do). Making sure everyone is on record is worthless if nobody wants to check the record.
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shraeye: says shraeye is wearing pants...
I think this is part of the shraerae problem: their names are so similar that it's hard to keep them straight.
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shraeye continued: calls out theMunch for a confusing post about conflicting ideas... calls out TheMunch for a post about Robz's kinda rolefish... votes cuzz, but doesn't want to go down the glooble lynch.... had "fun scolding themunch"... further's his case on Cuzz... gives an uncertain read about mcmc... doesn't want a mega-day 1, complains when it gets large...
TheMunch: talks to raerae about the lack of theory conversation.... puts a vote down on eevee (the one that shraeye criticized)... has an "off read" on ash... says "raerae is raerae" theorizes she could be sk... and doesn't think shraeye was worth mentioning at this point... admits feeling not as confident after the switch mafia... finds shraeye's case on Cuzz as "meh" but feels that Cuzz's response was worth a vote... agrees with 100% on shraeye's read on glooble, expresses a dislike for the long day1... doesn't like an eevee POE suspicion on raerae... really pushes for the Cuzz lynch, like hard... has a strong town read on shraeye in response to Cuzz....
Reminder: this isn't an attempt to analyze munch and shraeye in terms of scumminess... but is instead an attempt to analyze if they are so similar to each other and raerae... and to be honest I don't think there was much merit to this idea. All three voted for Cuzz... but all three expressed pretty different rationales for doing so... All three wanted day1 to end.... there were a few situations where RL confirmations came into play (raerae with pants and munch feeling bad after MXV) but those are unique to their friendship/living situation... But there really isn't anything else that jumps out. The fact that they expressed frustration at being lumped together very early in the game just confirms the idea that this idea developed early... partially as a joke... and then was turned into something as others began to look for it and ignored evidence to the contrary. To be honest if raerae were still alive I would find her to be the most likely culprit for hiding behind others. She tended to be behind and came second in reads... not a lot, but more so than the other two.
So I don't think there is any greater chance of finding scum between shraeye and themunch than any other two players. I think this has been a road of faulty logic that we as town have gone down. Now the question is such: who is more likely to create this type of myth? Town or scum?
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Day 1 is just too long to reread which is absolutely killing my abilities to play well here. Also, I think for some reason we haven't gotten much productive discussion in. Maybe it's because day 1 was so long, I know I haven't been able to get anything going either.
I wouldn't suggest a full reread of the whole day. I would recommend selected a player, going to print screen and rereading them specifically, then move onto the next as you have time. The question is who you should reread... the answer, someone you remember finding scummy from yesterday combined with the information from today's flip and conversations!
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I would say absolutely that scum *benefits* the most from it. I'm wary of Munch, but it's definitely possible he is town.
I'm not certain that scum is more likely to create this impression, but I tend towards thinking that they would. I could also see them propagating this idea.
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With this new evidence from Yuma I would love to reread anyone (cause I want to do something; I feel like I've been limping through cause I haven't really cared about much since I caught Ashersky) that has been pushing the groupthink on munch/shraeye/raerae and see if I see anything specific. Does anyone know which players are specifically guilty of doing so? Otherwise tomorrow I will just skim for a list of players that have expressed these opinions and see what I can find.
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When he's feeling up to it, I'd like to hear more from Robz on the Munshraeraeye thing. I think he first mentioned it, and I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head. On the face of it, "one of them is hiding behind the other two" doesn't seem like a great argument, but "shreaye is hiding behind the other two", or "Munch is hiding behind the other two" seem okay if there's some evidence to support it. If there's no evidence, it seems like it could be a great way for scum to put suspicion on 2-3 people who they know they are not aligned with.
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I was pressing the munshraeray theory as much as Robz.
+1 for Munch slipping in the "catching ashersky" jab into his post. He really is silly wrong. I can't wait to hit L-1, being forced to claim, and then mega-lynched.
I'll do my best to come up with an appropriate disappointment post for the night thread, a la Robz.
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In the interest of getting something going to analyze:
vote: Shraeye
Medium scum read there, a few people have said he's a top scum read but no one seems willing to vote. Let's see if we can get a wagon going, at least for analysis's sake.
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Yeah, I'm happy to Vote: shraeye.
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Although, ash playing up the guilt trip is making me wary of him.
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So I don't think there is any greater chance of finding scum between shraeye and themunch than any other two players. I think this has been a road of faulty logic that we as town have gone down. Now the question is such: who is more likely to create this type of myth? Town or scum?
I don't think it's been any kind of logic that "we as a town" have gone down. I think it's faulty logic that Robz/ashersky were pushing. I could be wrong and others adopted it, but mostly I've just seen people disagree with it. I find it just as likely that public sentiment was opposed to it and so scum has blown-back against the "mysterious people who started it" as scum pushing it in the first place.
Here's what I remember about it:
1. I grouped shraeye-raerae together in my first scattershot analysis(which raerae took issue with). There had been RVS + Contradiction case by Jimmmmm. raerae had demanded explanations with her "not wearing pants" comment, shraeye joked back with her, and confirmed a similar position. Then shraeye argued that there was no contradiction, and raerae argued the same thing.
2. ashersky accused raerae independent of shraeye. Upon review I noted that it looked like raerae may potentially have been copying shraeye (as yuma mentioned in his review just now too as the only really scummy version of this). But then raerae's flipped town, so that's obviously not what happened.
Anyways this was all before Munch. But it's something of the early-game stuff about shraeye-raerae. There was other stuff about shraerae in there somewhere. But including Munch I think was mostly done by Robz...of course someone might correct me there, but I think there have been more arguments against it than for it.
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With this new evidence from Yuma I would love to reread anyone (cause I want to do something; I feel like I've been limping through cause I haven't really cared about much since I caught Ashersky) that has been pushing the groupthink on munch/shraeye/raerae and see if I see anything specific. Does anyone know which players are specifically guilty of doing so? Otherwise tomorrow I will just skim for a list of players that have expressed these opinions and see what I can find.
If you're looking for something to do, you could answer my question of you.
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, you have posted a ton about ashersky. Please tell me about mcmc. You said you wanted to look at him, have you? What have you found?
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That last post is directed at TheMunch.
Here's one directed at Dsell (well everyone, I guess)
Does anyone else find this strange? Dsell, what say you?
I just haven't found your contributions particularly compelling or memorable, whereas usually when you're town, you're like at the front of everything and it's impossible to forget your opinions.
Isn't the compelling/memorable part of my contributions (regarding the Cuzz wagon, which I definitely was an instigator of) most of the reason that people are suspecting me today??
It seems that you're giving people here just an extra reason to find me scummy, and that reason rings false, because it seems in direct contradiction to the reasons that other people are having scumreads on me. It's just that when somebody says
"Shraeye seems to be posting a lot without contributing a lot, and that is ScumShraeye, right?" I think the reaction from people who already see me as scummy is "*nodnod* he ISSS scummy, I'm glad somebody else sees that".
When it should be "hey wait, I'm busy suspecting him because of his scummy contributions and now Dsell is saying that he isn't contributing a lot? :o"
It just looks like an easy way to fan the flames of a lynch that at this point does seem fairly likely.
In short; FoS: Dsell.
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yeah, i think you may actually be right, theorel. I've been thinking on where the scum would be in a situation like this. Originally it felt a lot like they would be behind the "at least one in these three" argument, because I was very worried for the implications if Munch were town as well.
But I don't recall many people other than ashersky/Robz saying this, and I do recall people pushing back (well...me, yuma, Munch, liopoil after prodding by me to answer the question)
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Here's the question that people thinking about me need to contemplate. Near the end of day 1, there was that insane fast wagon that built on me (Jimmm, eevee, yuma, asher, robz, Cuzz; in order). I'd say this got kicked off with yuma's call for people to get votes down (this one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg175551#msg175551)) and then went to Cuzz's vote 1169.
Is it very scummy to be the counter-wagon to town? I don't think so. In the span of 13 minutes, 6 people were super willing to save the claimed town SK-cop and vote for me instead. And while this was going on, the wagon on Cuzz didn't dwindle too much and the majority of people seemed ok with pushing that lynch through. Since that meant there was no need to unvote:Cuzz to save face. If I were on a scumteam with any of those people, that would have been a very bold and rash alternative to letting the Cuzz lynch go through.
That would mean if I were scum, my most likely partners would be on the Cuzz wagon with me which is dangerous, or mcmcsalot, Dsell, or theorel (wait, you didn't vote for me theorel? I thought you had, did I miss something?)
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Meanwhile, the station is falling apart as O'Brien is too inconsolable over Julian's death to supervise his repair teams.
Garak, too has stopped showing up for work, so hopefully no one needed anything tailored.
Or otherwise ... attended to.
Vote Count 2.2
ashersky (1): The Munch
shraeye (3): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm
Not voting (8): shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, mcmcsalot, yuma, Dsell, theorel
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Here's the question that people thinking about me need to contemplate. Near the end of day 1, there was that insane fast wagon that built on me (Jimmm, eevee, yuma, asher, robz, Cuzz; in order). I'd say this got kicked off with yuma's call for people to get votes down (this one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg175551#msg175551)) and then went to Cuzz's vote 1169.
Is it very scummy to be the counter-wagon to town? I don't think so. In the span of 13 minutes, 6 people were super willing to save the claimed town SK-cop and vote for me instead. And while this was going on, the wagon on Cuzz didn't dwindle too much and the majority of people seemed ok with pushing that lynch through. Since that meant there was no need to unvote:Cuzz to save face. If I were on a scumteam with any of those people, that would have been a very bold and rash alternative to letting the Cuzz lynch go through.
That would mean if I were scum, my most likely partners would be on the Cuzz wagon with me which is dangerous, or mcmcsalot, Dsell, or theorel (wait, you didn't vote for me theorel? I thought you had, did I miss something?)
theorel voted for you earlier in the day way before the late wagon on you started up. but by that time I believe he had moved his vote. You do bring up an interesting question. And I am further going to ask this question... after my post that you reference there is a vote for robz (by me) and a vote for raerae (by ash) before your wagon starts up. The question I want to discuss is why your wagon picked up, whereas the other two did not?
I kinda agree with you about your points about being the counter-wagon to town. But with a couple of caveats.
1. we are playing with some pretty bold and rash players... and I wouldn't put anything past any of them.
2. you don't include Galz or lio in this... yes they were on the Cuzz wagon, but weren't around (Galz was a bit after the fact and FOS the people on your wagon pretty loudly) but lio wasn't on at all during your wagon formation.... same for Glooble and TheMunch... I don't know what any of these players would have done if they had been online during that craziness, perhaps even they wouldn't know. (oh, I do see that you do include them... when you say "my most likely partners would be on the Cuzz wagon with me which is dangerous" because all of these players were on the wagon. So I guess this caveat is moot. but it makes me wonder this...
3. what you mean by saying "which is dangerous?" What is dangerous?
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Here's the question that people thinking about me need to contemplate. Near the end of day 1, there was that insane fast wagon that built on me (Jimmm, eevee, yuma, asher, robz, Cuzz; in order). I'd say this got kicked off with yuma's call for people to get votes down (this one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg175551#msg175551)) and then went to Cuzz's vote 1169.
Is it very scummy to be the counter-wagon to town? I don't think so. In the span of 13 minutes, 6 people were super willing to save the claimed town SK-cop and vote for me instead. And while this was going on, the wagon on Cuzz didn't dwindle too much and the majority of people seemed ok with pushing that lynch through. Since that meant there was no need to unvote:Cuzz to save face. If I were on a scumteam with any of those people, that would have been a very bold and rash alternative to letting the Cuzz lynch go through.
That would mean if I were scum, my most likely partners would be on the Cuzz wagon with me which is dangerous, or mcmcsalot, Dsell, or theorel (wait, you didn't vote for me theorel? I thought you had, did I miss something?)
I had unvoted by that time, and I wasn't around when the quick-wagon built on you. I probably would have voted for you then? Since I still thought you were a better lynch than Cuzz.
I think it's perfectly normal for scum to vote together in multi-ball. Assuming a scum-team of 2, that's a very small voting block, and so I wouldn't find it unreasonable for your partner to be on-wagon. Now, it would be weird that you killed Galzria being on-wagon together. Just like it would be weird for Galzria to kill raerae if his partner is on-wagon. Hmm....I'll have to think about it. I thought mcmcsalot seemed like a potential partner yesterday (for chainsaw defense I think)...which means that I don't find it remarkably unlikely that it's just the two of you. However, I must allow logic to prevail and note that in fact it's just not that likely. So, that means there are three possibilities: bussing, double-scum on wagon with a NK on-wagon as well, and you+mcmc/dsell as scum. None of these individually is likely, but none of them is impossible either. I'll consider other targets...
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So with the way ash is constantly responding I'm much more supportive of a ash lynch then a shraeye lynch. Actually I believe I had a strong scum read on ash early that was lost in the size of D1. Yes with the responses ash has been giving D2 I think i'm comfortable with a Vote: Ashersky
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Here's the question that people thinking about me need to contemplate. Near the end of day 1, there was that insane fast wagon that built on me (Jimmm, eevee, yuma, asher, robz, Cuzz; in order). I'd say this got kicked off with yuma's call for people to get votes down (this one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg175551#msg175551)) and then went to Cuzz's vote 1169.
Is it very scummy to be the counter-wagon to town? I don't think so. In the span of 13 minutes, 6 people were super willing to save the claimed town SK-cop and vote for me instead. And while this was going on, the wagon on Cuzz didn't dwindle too much and the majority of people seemed ok with pushing that lynch through. Since that meant there was no need to unvote:Cuzz to save face. If I were on a scumteam with any of those people, that would have been a very bold and rash alternative to letting the Cuzz lynch go through.
That would mean if I were scum, my most likely partners would be on the Cuzz wagon with me which is dangerous, or mcmcsalot, Dsell, or theorel (wait, you didn't vote for me theorel? I thought you had, did I miss something?)
I had unvoted by that time, and I wasn't around when the quick-wagon built on you. I probably would have voted for you then? Since I still thought you were a better lynch than Cuzz.
I think it's perfectly normal for scum to vote together in multi-ball. Assuming a scum-team of 2, that's a very small voting block, and so I wouldn't find it unreasonable for your partner to be on-wagon. Now, it would be weird that you killed Galzria being on-wagon together. Just like it would be weird for Galzria to kill raerae if his partner is on-wagon. Hmm....I'll have to think about it. I thought mcmcsalot seemed like a potential partner yesterday (for chainsaw defense I think)...which means that I don't find it remarkably unlikely that it's just the two of you. However, I must allow logic to prevail and note that in fact it's just not that likely. So, that means there are three possibilities: bussing, double-scum on wagon with a NK on-wagon as well, and you+mcmc/dsell as scum. None of these individually is likely, but none of them is impossible either. I'll consider other targets...
I was also gone when the quick wagon was formed on shraeye. Had I been around I don't think I would have been crazy supportive of the quick wagon, as D1 was already too long and I had expressed intent to hammer cuzz.
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So with the way ash is constantly responding I'm much more supportive of a ash lynch then a shraeye lynch. Actually I believe I had a strong scum read on ash early that was lost in the size of D1. Yes with the responses ash has been giving D2 I think i'm comfortable with a Vote: Ashersky
You all realize (well, some of you, I'm sure) that its posts like these that egg me on to stay ridiculous.
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So with the way ash is constantly responding I'm much more supportive of a ash lynch then a shraeye lynch. Actually I believe I had a strong scum read on ash early that was lost in the size of D1. Yes with the responses ash has been giving D2 I think i'm comfortable with a Vote: Ashersky
You all realize (well, some of you, I'm sure) that its posts like these that egg me on to stay ridiculous.
yes, mcmc what exactly are you saying here? "the way ash is constantly responding?" what does that mean. But ash, no it isn't a reason to be ridiculous...
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3. what you mean by saying "which is dangerous?" What is dangerous?
This is what I'm saying about "If I were scum and my partner were on Cuzz's lynch with me, we would be playing dangerously"
Now, it would be weird that you killed Galzria being on-wagon together. Just like it would be weird for Galzria to kill raerae if his partner is on-wagon.
Either I'm on a team with Galz, and me/him killed raerae even though we were both on Cuzz.
Or I'm on a team other than Galz. And me/partner decided to kill Galz who was also on wagon.
Either way we're dwindling an obvious pool of targets which includes both of us.
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If you're looking for something to do, you could answer my question of you.
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, you have posted a ton about ashersky. Please tell me about mcmc. You said you wanted to look at him, have you? What have you found?
So I opened today with 2 reads: Ashersky's odd end of the day play, and mcmc's "I'll hammer" then goes off the radar.
Obviously I've talked about Ashersky ad nauseum and I nearly completely forgot about my mcmc thing. I remember why I forgot. Mcmc responded pretty shortly thereafter and I didn't like his response, but didn't really have anything solid to debate regarding it without doing some rereading so I thought "eh, I'll get back to it" then I never did. Whoops.
So I reread the end of the day with mcmc's defense in mind (it was basically "I wanted people to answer cuzz's question and by the time I came back he was dead"). I can see that this is what mcmc wants to say he was doing but on reread it felt very hollow. He made the post that he wanted to wait for people to answer cuzz's question. Called out Raerae once, and then said "oh people have said a bunch, I guess Cuzz isn't dead yet, I'm going to sleep." There is nothing inherently wrong about going to sleep or sleeping through deadline but I dont like the juxtaposition of all of:
- Vocally stating intent to hammer
- Waiting for responses to Cuzz's question
- Not actually pushing very hard that that was what he was waiting for
- His last post of the day that acknowledges the possibility that Cuzz could have died while he was gone while leaving unceremoniously.
This all gives a ton of "I want to look like I would have voted for Cuzz" While not actually caring one way or another if Cuzz got lynched.
Yuma also commented on Mcmc in 1513. I think Ashersky has been quite scummy, and would be more than happy if he got lynched but I do not like the way that mcmc threw his vote down. "Oh I guess I used to have scum reads on him". It feels like one of the scummier votes I've seen in a while. I think all this is scummy enough on re-inspection that I am comfortable changing my vote. Vote: Mcmc
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Hey guys, I'm fleeing miraculously better today (despite yuma's informed naysaying), and will post my thoughts in a bit.
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Okay, ready.
Vote: shraeye, for a million reason.
First off, he is most solely responsible for creating the Cuzz wagon. He built up the entire intellectual defense of it. He then was not around when Cuzz claimed Cop, but reappeared only to say that his mind was not one bit changed by the claim. This always bothered me, and continues to bother me. I know I agonized over whether Cuzz was the right lynch, trying to balance such factors as a need to end the day soon, the fact that Cuzz's answers were manifestly terrible and at times sounded like lies... with other factors such as the fact that he was a freaking cop, and that some of the pieces of evidence against him did not hold up to scrutiny. But shraeye was completely decisive.
The people trying to chip away at my "Munchshraerae monstrosity" case have a valid point, to an extent. They are of course three different people who have done many different things. But they have A LOT of big similarities, in that they were three of the most vocal proponents of the Cuzz lynch, did not waiver at key times in the decision making, each took up the charge when the other was gone, never voted for each other, and rarely if ever criticized each other. Maybe I can get Eevee to back me up here; in Blitz whatever, Munch and shraeye were the scumteam, along with Insomniac. Munch made a comment at the beginning of the game that shraeye didn't even know the game had started, and he was going to tell him (they are IRL roommates). I was the Innocent Child, along with I think Jimm. We got Insomniac, but in the end I didn't predict shraeye/Munch for the scumteam, and we lost. It came down to a bunch of things, but chief among them was, I let scum!shraeye and scum!Munch essentially hide behind their IRL relationship (legit scum tactic, by the way, so good for them). And I am really worried about that happening again here, mainly because I see the three of them so much in sync (although not completely in sync!). Now, raerae is dead and town, fine. But the extent to which Munch and shraeye have had each others backs, both yesterday and today... I could really see one of them taking advantage of the other as scum, or I could even see them both being scum. Now, the question is, could the play the three of them did have happened if all three were just plain old town, naturally buddying each other? The answer is yes, of course yes. Is it more likely than the other two scenarios? I am betting, I am hoping, no.
I actually have another reason to go shraeye here, but I can't share it yet. However, I should be able to explain it pretty soon. It's nothing like night powers or any of that, so don't get your hopes up. And don't try to puzzle out why I can't say it yet. I'll be able to explain it very soon, I think, and worst case scenario, definitely before deadline.
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If you're looking for something to do, you could answer my question of you.
Mcmc: This is one I think I am missing details cause I definitely wasn't giving it 100% after page 40, but didn't mcmc say that he was going to hammer cuzz then never ended up on the lynch?
Munch, you have posted a ton about ashersky. Please tell me about mcmc. You said you wanted to look at him, have you? What have you found?
So I opened today with 2 reads: Ashersky's odd end of the day play, and mcmc's "I'll hammer" then goes off the radar.
Obviously I've talked about Ashersky ad nauseum and I nearly completely forgot about my mcmc thing. I remember why I forgot. Mcmc responded pretty shortly thereafter and I didn't like his response, but didn't really have anything solid to debate regarding it without doing some rereading so I thought "eh, I'll get back to it" then I never did. Whoops.
So I reread the end of the day with mcmc's defense in mind (it was basically "I wanted people to answer cuzz's question and by the time I came back he was dead"). I can see that this is what mcmc wants to say he was doing but on reread it felt very hollow. He made the post that he wanted to wait for people to answer cuzz's question. Called out Raerae once, and then said "oh people have said a bunch, I guess Cuzz isn't dead yet, I'm going to sleep." There is nothing inherently wrong about going to sleep or sleeping through deadline but I dont like the juxtaposition of all of:
- Vocally stating intent to hammer
- Waiting for responses to Cuzz's question
- Not actually pushing very hard that that was what he was waiting for
- His last post of the day that acknowledges the possibility that Cuzz could have died while he was gone while leaving unceremoniously.
This all gives a ton of "I want to look like I would have voted for Cuzz" While not actually caring one way or another if Cuzz got lynched.
Yuma also commented on Mcmc in 1513. I think Ashersky has been quite scummy, and would be more than happy if he got lynched but I do not like the way that mcmc threw his vote down. "Oh I guess I used to have scum reads on him". It feels like one of the scummier votes I've seen in a while. I think all this is scummy enough on re-inspection that I am comfortable changing my vote. Vote: Mcmc
Well for starters I think much of this is inherently wrong. I did not sleep through deadline, deadline was not that night as far as I believed. Second I did not push for the questions to be answered because people had been prompted multiple times. The reason I led when I did was I did not feel me adding my voice to the white noise during the end I D1 was necessary. I said I would hammer when the few questions that were still out there were answered, I then left and came back to check if the questions had been answered before I went to bed at which point I would have hammered. When I came back however these few question may have been answered but as well a wagon was formed o shraeye and there was quite a few extra pages, I posted to let everyone know I didn't just say ill hammer and then leave for the whole day, I said I would hammer and then wasn't sure If I wanted to without reading the extra pages and decifering why a wagon was formed, I did not want to read that much as I needed to go to bed. Then I woke up to cuzz having been hammered.
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So with the way ash is constantly responding I'm much more supportive of a ash lynch then a shraeye lynch. Actually I believe I had a strong scum read on ash early that was lost in the size of D1. Yes with the responses ash has been giving D2 I think i'm comfortable with a Vote: Ashersky
You all realize (well, some of you, I'm sure) that its posts like these that egg me on to stay ridiculous.
yes, mcmc what exactly are you saying here? "the way ash is constantly responding?" what does that mean. But ash, no it isn't a reason to be ridiculous...
I mean all this talk of munch being silly for thinking he's scum and how the mods are laughing at the situation and how wrong everyone is for suspecting him. I don't think those are pro town posts and I think in a game where we have very recently made far to many posts these posts are especially unforgivable.
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Robz, I do hope this new info is something concrete.
The fact is, I'm far from ready to lynch shraeye with the info we have now. It's like, it seems good on paper, but he just reads very town to me. But maybe part of that is that if I admit that his arguments for lynching Cuzz were manipulative, then I'm owning up to how easy I was to manipulate. There were a couple reasons for wanting to lynch Cuzz that I thought didn't hold much water, but I would say most of his argument made perfect sense to me at the time. I'm reasonably certain shraeye thought CUzz was scum. Of course this doesn't preclude shraeye being scum.
Robz is probably my number one townread, so his endorsement of the shraeye lynch definitely holds weight with me. But something still seems off to me. Sorry I can't offer anything more constructive right now.
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Robz, I do hope this new info is something concrete.
The fact is, I'm far from ready to lynch shraeye with the info we have now. It's like, it seems good on paper, but he just reads very town to me. But maybe part of that is that if I admit that his arguments for lynching Cuzz were manipulative, then I'm owning up to how easy I was to manipulate. There were a couple reasons for wanting to lynch Cuzz that I thought didn't hold much water, but I would say most of his argument made perfect sense to me at the time. I'm reasonably certain shraeye thought CUzz was scum. Of course this doesn't preclude shraeye being scum.
Robz is probably my number one townread, so his endorsement of the shraeye lynch definitely holds weight with me. But something still seems off to me. Sorry I can't offer anything more constructive right now.
Shraeye may have thought Cuzz was scum, sure. With multiple teams, it's reasonable to suspect shraeye would vote for the person shraeye thought was scum, even if shraeye was scum.
But shraeye was like, POSITIVE, Cuzz was scum, and did even hesitate at all, even after Cuzz's claim. That's a little too much for me to believe. It makes shraeye's certainty seeming incredulous, and therefore, false.
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Sisko sits in his office, staring pensively at his baseball.
A Mirror Universe infiltrator, caught. But that means there could be more on board. Why? What could their mission be? How could he stop them before its too late....
Vote Count 2.3
ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888 {L-3}
mcmcsalot (1): The Munch
Not voting (6): shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, yuma, Dsell, theorel
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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I should comment on one or two other things.
I don't think Munch's case against Mcmc is without merit, even though Mcmc is a townread for me. But I don't like Mc's vote on ashersky at all--as much as Mcmc is a townread for me, ashersky is an even bigger townread. Look guys, I know he's insane, but there's no way this is scum ashersky. There's just no way. And town!ashersky acts like this all the time. So I think people pushing cases against him are either making a huge mistake, or are pursuing the low-hanging fruit or something. It would be easy to lynch ash, because he's gone off the deep end, but it would be very, very wrong. (And doing so drives him further off the deep end, if you haven't noticed).
Oh but yeah, about Munch's case. I get it, it's something, but I'm not really going to punish Mcmc for saying he was going to hammer, then coming on and seeing this Cuzz debate raging, but it's late and he hadn't really planned for this, so he shurgs and says, okay no hammer now, and leaves. I get how that's kind of taking the easy way out and a bit scummy, but not the scummiest thing ever. But I don't like him pursuing an ash lynch either. So I guess I downgrade Mcmc from likely town to neutral.
Huge townread on ash, like I said, and still Glooble. And theorel.
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A final post clarifying what I think has happened with regards to me this game (especially the whole D2 back and forth with Munch, and now mcmc).
I'll call it RVS. No, not that one. Or the other one. A new one! Relentless Voltgloss Syndrome. But what's that, you ask? I think I can break it down fairly well, and hopefully explain why I've been a bit cranky in my responses.
A bit ago, a group of us f.ds mafia players took a trip to Helsinki. Not to get into too much about the trip, there was a day where I ended up being lynched. I was a VT. Voltgloss was the strongest proponent of that lynch. So it turned out that we were both town, and Super Scum Overlord ehunt played everyone, but that's besides the point. I want to point out that the way that lynch went down is extremely indicative of town!ash.
Voltgloss's case on me was based on facts. I mean real facts. Vote counts, who voted for who, what was said. Indisputable facts. And yet, I was town. It has to do with how facts are presented, interpreted, and used, I believe. Here's an example I am making up:
Factual statement 1: Robz888 hasn't been around much lately this game. He posted that he got sick, though.
Factual statement 2: Robz888 HAS NOT posted anywhere near as much as he usually does, even compared to D1! I mean, he post that he's "sick," but come on.
So, no lies in either of those statements, but they clearly have different intentions. I think version 1 is an example of a town way of saying something. I think version 2 could be a way scum would say that.
In Helsinki, Voltgloss made the argument that I loudly protested and voted for people during the game, but I did NOT do that to Cuzz. This was true. I couldn't factually refute it. He made some other points, too, some of which were set-up related, but to get to my point here: in response to Volt's case against me, I defaulted to an emotion-based response. "I'm not lying, so you need to believe me!" Well, self-pity and indignation was neither popular nor effective, and I got lynched.
So, take this game. We've got Munch with his "scum slip" argument. He's caught me, he says. Here's what I see:
Factual statement 1: Ashersky made a faulty leap of logic from Robz statement that there is probably scum amongst munshraeray to one of munshraeray killed raerae. That doesn't make much sense.
Factual statement 2: Ashersky CLAIMS Robz thought munch or shraeye killed raerae but KNOWS it isn't true! Look at his argument! How can he possibly know this???
As mentioned, self-pity and indignation didn't work. So I'm trying flippant and irritated (kind of--I mean, you can't totally change who you are). Probably, it's just as effective as the first one, but, well, at least I'm trying something different.
Another reason I was so upset with the way Helsinki went down was because I really felt that Voltgloss should have known me better. I mean, better than most, given having played together, having faced off as scum v. town before, having modded together. For the same reasons, especially following Helsinki, I think this entire post will resonate most with yuma, who will understand the best.
PS -- If there's a Super Scum Overlord ehunt in this game, it's theorel.
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did you read my analysis of shraraeunch? If not then apparently we disagree about interpretation of a lot of posts that I think can't really be interpreted any other way... furthermore you do not do any quoting. Did you go back and reread or was all of this from memory? I found significant moments that directly contradict your statements where shraeye or another player called out and criticized and expressed scum reads on one of the other players. Yes they all moved the lynch on Cuzz. But so did Galz, mcmc and you and ash. The only other thing that they agreed upon was the desire to end day1.... I don't get how you and I can have such contrary opinions on something that can be easily researched.
If you really feel this way, please go back, find the evidence, post it show me. It doesn't necessarily have to be in quote form--mine wasn't. But mine was a thorough look at all three players, noting every time I found and interaction.
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But shraeye was like, POSITIVE, Cuzz was scum, and did even hesitate at all, even after Cuzz's claim. That's a little too much for me to believe. It makes shraeye's certainty seeming incredulous, and therefore, false.
I hope this isn't the new piece of info. I'm a decisive person. I had decided on a Cuzz lynch. He looked scummy to me for a number of reasons, and I explained them all. Somehow these reasons are being called manipulative a few times (theorel, Jimmm have mentioned this).
I don't understand the distinction between "reason that convinces shraeye, so he writes about it and other people are also convinced" and "manipulative reason". I mean if my reasons are being called manipulative because people bought into them, then no lynch is gonna happen unless either A)somebody manipulates, or B)everybody somehow independently finds a person scummy, through no suggestion based on other people's reasons.
I know, that's taking it to the extremes and much farther than anyone here is explicitly saying. But still I see myself being called manipulative simply because people were persuaded; that feels wrong.
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Look guys, I know he's insane, but there's no way this is scum ashersky. There's just no way. And town!ashersky acts like this all the time. So I think people pushing cases against him are either making a huge mistake, or are pursuing the low-hanging fruit or something. It would be easy to lynch ash, because he's gone off the deep end, but it would be very, very wrong. (And doing so drives him further off the deep end, if you haven't noticed).
I wouldn't say ashersky is acting insane, but I also have a strong townread on him. I agree with this.
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I understand it, but I don't like it. That is to say that I think ash is town. His play style is crazy and frankly drives me a bit nuts. I would strongly prefer that he play a bit less crazy as town, but I can't tell him what to do or how to play, that is his own decision and has every right to it.
To continue with this vein of thought, the reason I would prefer that he play differently as town is that it always results in him getting lynched, mislynched. I think that is why I get a little annoyed by the occasional "woe is me post" because his mislynches are often the result of his own play style. Which is why I disagree that his play style is an easy one to copy as scum. It is easy to copy, but why copy it when it will just result in you getting lynched. That is just dumb play--and I think ash is smart enough to realize this. To me this is town ash. It is different from the times he was scum in MXIV and MXV and more similar to MXVI. Sorry for all the roman numerals... but that is my read.
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Robz is probably my number one townread, so his endorsement of the shraeye lynch definitely holds weight with me. But something still seems off to me. Sorry I can't offer anything more constructive right now.
why is he a town read?
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did you read my analysis of shraraeunch? If not then apparently we disagree about interpretation of a lot of posts that I think can't really be interpreted any other way... furthermore you do not do any quoting. Did you go back and reread or was all of this from memory? I found significant moments that directly contradict your statements where shraeye or another player called out and criticized and expressed scum reads on one of the other players. Yes they all moved the lynch on Cuzz. But so did Galz, mcmc and you and ash. The only other thing that they agreed upon was the desire to end day1.... I don't get how you and I can have such contrary opinions on something that can be easily researched.
If you really feel this way, please go back, find the evidence, post it show me. It doesn't necessarily have to be in quote form--mine wasn't. But mine was a thorough look at all three players, noting every time I found and interaction.
I did read your post of course, I just drew the opposite conclusion based on the data you presented. I see plenty of evidence for my position based on what you posted. They only criticize each other in the most cursory of ways! When shraeye criticizes munch, he even hedges is it with that "it was fun scolding munch" statement that casts it in a silly light. No votes for each other, no serious suspicion. I should go back and re read and see what I come with, but I would say that based on what YOU came up with, the three of them act like a team.
Now, what does it mean that they act like a team? And here I don't think it's unreasonable if you conclude they act like a team for some reason other than at least one of them is scum. That's the part of that is a bit open to interpretation I think, which is why my case on shraeye rests on other pieces of evidence, too. But I don't think their buddying is controversial, it's definitively proved by the evidence you provided. So I don't know what to say to you, Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.
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Apropos to yuma's question, I meant to ask you if you had a chance to follow up on this post.
We also need to look at shraeye and yuma. On the one hand, Shraeye tunneled hard on Cuzz, had everyone (including me) buying his arguments, but on the other hand, would a scum player really ever tunnel that hard on anyone? It seems dangerous.
I still read townie on Shraeye.
Yuma's fast wagon on Shraeye also needs to be examined, but I have no idea what to make of it. On the surface it seems very townie, but... I don't know, it bothers me. That might just be residual suspicion of yuma, though, from when he was on my wagon.
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I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
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Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.
I too think this is a possibility. Sometimes I think I am smarter than I actually am.
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For example I can't quote properly...
Yuma, other than perhaps we are both just confirming our own biases at this point.
I too think this is a possibility. Sometimes I think I am smarter than I actually am.
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I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding... {Arrested Development reference in my head, let's see if I can find it... I did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRl2tHxbDfo}
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What questions would these be, exactly??
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these two at least...
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I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding... {Arrested Development reference in my head, let's see if I can find it... I did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRl2tHxbDfo}
Ah, I really don't like either of these choices (though I of course love the video).
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I need a little time to put my thoughts together, and unfortunately I won't have it until tomorrow afternoon. Right now I'm posting from my phone and I have a massive headache.
I don't have a good evidence- based reason for my town read on Robz beyond that he's seemed very transparent with his reasoning in a way that is hard for scum to do.
I haven't looked back at the end of day shraeye wagon yet. I will get back to you tomorrow on that front. I can't look at this tiny screen anymore. Sorry.
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I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
No, the more I think about this, the more strongly I disagree. It was good, and pro-town, that Mc didn't hammer when he said he would. We were in the middle of huge, important discussion, that forced people into new positions--the shraeye wagon--exposed new info about Cuzz--that turned out to be wrong, oh well--and produced a different hammer: me + ashersky, I believe. This is actually better. If Player X says, "Okay, I am hammering 5 hours from now," and then does so, that's such a like a safe, mellow end of the day. Because he's just following through on what he said, how can you attack him? So to me, that's actually the safe thing and it should raise more questions. That would have been taking the easy way out. Instead, Mcmc let the rest of the day play out, and we got some useful discussion and forced some people to get on record (myself included!), and really it was better.
So, while this isn't a situation where I think you can say, "scum!mcmcsalot would have done that" or "town!mcmcsalot would have done that," but it was a beneficial, pro-town thing to do, the way he actually did it.
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I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more strongly I agree. It was terrible and pro-mcmc that mc didn't hammer when he said he would. Although we were in the middle of a huge discussion, it wasn't important and didn't really force people into new positions -- extended day 1 muddled everyone's reads. It produced a different hammer which was exactly what mcmc wanted. When mc said "okay intent to hammer, I'm just going to wait until 15 people have responded to something" it is such a safe position for mc to be in. He probably didn't actually intend to ever follow through on what he said, and that is more than enough reason to be critical of him. Mcmc took the easy way out by never actually tying himself to his position.
I dont know whether scum!mcmc or town!mcmc would do much as I haven't played much with him, nor would I want to let meta reads effect me that much. It was definitely pro-mcmc, not pro-town, the way he actually did it.
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Well it certainly wasn't pro-mcmc if doing it caused multiple people to be suspicious of him, but I see your point.
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Sisko sits in his office, staring pensively at his baseball.
A Mirror Universe infiltrator, caught. But that means there could be more on board. Why? What could their mission be? How could he stop them before its too late....
Vote Count 2.3
ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888 {L-3}
mcmcsalot (1): The Munch
Not voting (6): shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, yuma, Dsell, theorel
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
I didn't unvote...not sure if I will...I'm fine with shraeye at L-2. I did say I would consider other options, but I did not intend to stop voting shraeye during these considerations. I'm assuming my comment about unvoting shraeye yesterday got interpreted as an "unvote" today. Anyways vote: shraeye, to put it back there. Now to finish catching up.
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It was probably a mistake on my part.
Flavor flavor flavor
Vote Count 2.4
ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (5): Eevee, ashersky, Jimmmmm, Robz888, theorel {L-2}
mcmcsalot (2): The Munch, liopoil
Not voting (4): shraeye, Glooble, yuma, Dsell
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Well it certainly wasn't pro-mcmc if doing it caused multiple people to be suspicious of him, but I see your point.
By pro-mc I mean that he did it for himself, not to benefit town.
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I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
Yeah, the more I think about this, the more strongly I agree. It was terrible and pro-mcmc that mc didn't hammer when he said he would. Although we were in the middle of a huge discussion, it wasn't important and didn't really force people into new positions -- extended day 1 muddled everyone's reads. It produced a different hammer which was exactly what mcmc wanted. When mc said "okay intent to hammer, I'm just going to wait until 15 people have responded to something" it is such a safe position for mc to be in. He probably didn't actually intend to ever follow through on what he said, and that is more than enough reason to be critical of him. Mcmc took the easy way out by never actually tying himself to his position.
I dont know whether scum!mcmc or town!mcmc would do much as I haven't played much with him, nor would I want to let meta reads effect me that much. It was definitely pro-mcmc, not pro-town, the way he actually did it.
I disagree. The discussion made me more comfortable with the lynch, since I didn't like Cuzz's answers. I ended up deciding to vote for Cuzz's lynch, when previously I opposed it. It gave shraeye a chance to recant the lynch, which he did not take. It revealed Munch as an aggressive supporter of shraeye's case against Cuzz. It unhinged ashersky, strengthening my town read on him. It gave yuma a chance to come forward and try to start alternate wagons. It did not muddle the day, as far as I'm concerned.
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Hey Robz, what's your read on yuma right now?
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
I agree more with Munch than with Robz on this one.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
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Hey Robz, what's your read on yuma right now?
Pretty darn neutral. We have like opposite opinions, but I don't know that that makes him scum, it may just mean one of us is like way off on stuff. Very well could be me, given my track record as town. This strikes me as one of his most active games. Usually, I am always forgetting about yuma, invisiyuma and what not. Definitively, this is not the case here. He is active and memorable.
Where is Eevee? I feel like Eevee has barely been a part of Day 2.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this. We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.
I think mcmc's play could be seen that way. It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.
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Where is Eevee? I feel like Eevee has barely been a part of Day 2.
Eevee continues to think he has obv!town status.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
What he should have followed through on wasn't the actual hammer vote specifically but the fact that he was supposedly waiting for one very specific thing to happen (everyone answers cuzz's question). He could have been much more vocal about this fact and pushed people to generate the content that he was looking for (if that was in fact why he was waiting to hammer). One post about Raerae's comment to Cuzz (I wont answer his question till he answers mine) doesn't cut it. I agree it wouldn't have been the towniest thing to have hammered out of the blue. But the fact that he didn't do one scummy thing doesn't mean that the thing that he DID do wasn't also scummy.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this. We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.
I think mcmc's play could be seen that way. It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.
Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this. We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.
I think mcmc's play could be seen that way. It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.
Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?
Thats the exact opposite of what Ashersky is saying.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
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@Robz: Regardless of whether or not it muddled the day, that wasn't the point of my post. The point I'm trying to make is that I think mcmc wasn't doing what he did to be pro town. He did it for himself, to hedge and not have to commit to lynching cuzz.
But I think just following through on what he warned that he would do--which generated little controversy at the time--would have been the scummier thing, really.
Robz, be honest though, as scum we've done this. We've said "I'll hammer...soon" or "that's definitely scummy, I wouldn't be surprised if he flipped town though" as a way of generating town!cred without being too committed.
I think mcmc's play could be seen that way. It's also possible, as you are saying, that his statement was OBE.
Definitely! I DO think the promise to hammer was scummy. But I think scum would have followed through on that promise, to be on the safe side. My brother reconsidering and NOT hammering is the part I don't think is super scummy. And it was definitely pro-town. You get it?
It was pro-town not to hammer, I guess, given Cuzz was town. But we didn't know that. And since we have the two scum teams angle, we can't just say straight out "but mcmc KNEW he was town, so he used that for towncred" either. I mean, I get your argument, too.
I just still think it leans further to the scummy side. Maybe it's due to lack of explanation at the time? Like a "guys, you know what, I'm not going to hammer this dude, I think he's town." He just rode it out. Scum does that.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
There have been 3 main things today:
-Ashersky's scum slip and end of the day voting patterns
-Mcmc's intent to hammer
-Shraeye.
Feel free to comment on all of these...
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But shraeye was like, POSITIVE, Cuzz was scum, and did even hesitate at all, even after Cuzz's claim. That's a little too much for me to believe. It makes shraeye's certainty seeming incredulous, and therefore, false.
I hope this isn't the new piece of info. I'm a decisive person. I had decided on a Cuzz lynch. He looked scummy to me for a number of reasons, and I explained them all. Somehow these reasons are being called manipulative a few times (theorel, Jimmm have mentioned this).
I don't understand the distinction between "reason that convinces shraeye, so he writes about it and other people are also convinced" and "manipulative reason". I mean if my reasons are being called manipulative because people bought into them, then no lynch is gonna happen unless either A)somebody manipulates, or B)everybody somehow independently finds a person scummy, through no suggestion based on other people's reasons.
I know, that's taking it to the extremes and much farther than anyone here is explicitly saying. But still I see myself being called manipulative simply because people were persuaded; that feels wrong.
Your reasons were not manipulative because people believed them. I think your case was manipulative in the sense that you used false or very weak points to inflate it. I pointed them out immediately, and also FOSed everyone who bought the case I found it so weak. If you had only used the strong points in the case, then it's possible less people would have sheeped it, but it would have been clear exactly what argument you were making. But the majority of my scum-read on you does not rest in you pushing Cuzz' lynch.
A fair portion rests in you pushing for Cuzz' lynch while voting for Jimmmmm. Your two-pronged assault, both with weak reasoning, is such a scummy thing to me. It reads to me so much like someone who is being proactively defensive. Set town up with a couple targets hammer-em all day long with suspicion and surely my team will get off scott-free. This is the manipulation, which I see in your play. This is why you look so much like scum to me.
Also, I really hate arguments of the sort "if we didn't do it there would never be a lynch". These are bad arguments full of fallacy. In this particular case the fallacy is clearly in the "manipulative = convincing" which is not true. It might be true that you weren't trying to be manipulative. But it is my opinion, based on the information I have (i.e. your actual arguments and the way you approached them) that you were trying to manipulate town in a certain direction (presumably away from yourself and any team-mates). Now maybe you just thought you had strong cases...I dealt with that when you made the cases. The fact you refuse to recognize that this could be perceived as manipulative to people outside your own head sounds like an argument intending to mislead.
I do think that decisiveness is in fact anti-town. It's basically saying, "I'm going to give into confirmation bias and read everything against this player, because I've decided this player is scum". I doubt you see it/mean it that way, but it's always how I read a comment like that.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me??? I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm] (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete. I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
There have been 3 main things today:
-Ashersky's scum slip and end of the day voting patterns
-Mcmc's intent to hammer
-Shraeye.
Feel free to comment on all of these...
-This I have given my opinion on already. I think the argument is not good, ashersky gets mislynched for something like this and his reactions to it ALL THE TIME as town. If it was someone else, I'd give it more weigh. I don't know what to glean from end of day voting, I was against the Cuzz lynch and happily jumped to shraeye when the wagon presented itself.
-This is exactly the kind of thing I don't know how to analyze. He probably didn't think much when making the statement, it wasn't some nefarious plan, I think he could have done it just as well as scum or as town. Noread.
-I found him scummy yesterday, I find him scummy still (interestingly he has always been pretty good at fooling me though). Others (theorel) have made the case better than I could, but it has been the most convincing for me.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me??? I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm] (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete. I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)
yeah, i was just about to say this. :) Oh well, my fault for asking for other people to pick! I'll try to do it next!
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me??? I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm] (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete. I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)
That was the point.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me??? I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm] (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete. I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)
That was the point.
WHAT WAS? Don't say you did this just to spite me!
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Eevee, what do you think of mcmc?
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
Theorel.
Eevee's complaining about lack of concreteness and you ask him to reread me??? I'm sure that will help.[/sarcasm] (Yes, I fully recognize my inability to communicate in the concrete. I just can't do anything about it, because it's just how I think.)
That was the point.
WHAT WAS? Don't say you did this just to spite me!
No! I meant that because theo is so hard to get a read on, I wanted someone with a good eye to go back and reread him.
I mean, the irony was just a bonus.
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Meh, this game. I think the stuff we are discussing is VERY hard for me to participate in. It's just not very.. concrete? Lots of long long posts about stuff I think isn't very telling of alignment.
Someone, pick someone you'd like my opinion on. I'll do a full reread.
reread me. I feel like your opinion of me is a holdover from day1, and that you haven't really considered it at all for a while.
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so before I go to bed I am going to try to put down my thoughts on both Glooble (I was hoping to get those questions answered before, but man, I know headaches and this is not a game suited for it) and mcmc... We will see how I do as I am supposed to be studying for a hematology final.
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I think your case was manipulative in the sense that you used false or very weak points to inflate it. I pointed them out immediately, and also FOSed everyone who bought the case I found it so weak.
I didn't find those points weak, and really didn't intend to inflate a case with them. They were parts of the case. There were minor things, but my scumhunting techniques relies on adding together many small parts. The more small scummy parts in place, the more I can see that player being scum.
A fair portion rests in you pushing for Cuzz' lynch while voting for Jimmmmm. Your two-pronged assault, both with weak reasoning, is such a scummy thing to me. It reads to me so much like someone who is being proactively defensive. Set town up with a couple targets hammer-em all day long with suspicion and surely my team will get off scott-free. This is the manipulation, which I see in your play. This is why you look so much like scum to me.
This is a fair point; I have often looked at people arguing two cases at once and said that they were scummy. The problem for me during day1 was that I kept looking at Cuzz, and then at Jimmmm, and they were really sitting at virtually the same mental scumscore. You often write things in terms of some sort of scumscore; I mean, what do you do when two people are up at 45 and nobody's talking about anything that feels substantial (at the point I started those cases, i think the deal with Eevee was the biggest thing).
It was definitely possible that one or both of those cases is wrong, so I wrote both cases and voted for Jimmm as I felt like he was at a 45.2 compared to Cuzz's 45. Then plenty of people disagreed with the Jimmm case, so I kept looking at it and was asking myself "hmmm, is this maybe not as strong as I thought it was? How is it me and other people are getting very different opinions of Jimmm?" I've said before that I'm a decisive scumhunter, and that is definitely true. But I also reevaluate my reads quite often. (Jimmmm is sitting between slighttown and neutral right now).
But the case on Cuzz really took off in some people's eyes (still not in others, but I don't remember a case that hasn't had any detractors. There always be detractors.) and they really seemed to be agreeing with the points I had laid out. That case felt like it was definitely on scum, and I gained much misplaced confidence.
Also, I really hate arguments of the sort "if we didn't do it there would never be a lynch". These are bad arguments full of fallacy. In this particular case the fallacy is clearly in the "manipulative = convincing" which is not true.
This was the fallacy I thought I was exposing. But it seems you mean manipulative in a different way and you explained that well. When I heard that my case was manipulative, it just sounded like people were upset that they were "convinced" by a case that ended up being on town, so they were blaming me for being "manipulative."
It might be true that you weren't trying to be manipulative. But it is my opinion, based on the information I have (i.e. your actual arguments and the way you approached them) that you were trying to manipulate town in a certain direction (presumably away from yourself and any team-mates).
In one sense, you're completely right. I WAS trying to cause town to move in a certain direction...in that I thought Cuzz was a great lynch and wanted to make that happen. This is where I come across the deal with manipulation =/= convincing; I was definitely working to *convince* town to move in a certain direction. Absolutely. But that direction isn't away from me or my hypothetical teammates, it was towards a lynch that I felt very sure would be successful. And in this regard every scumhunter is trying to convince people of their reads.
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So right now my reads are
scummy: (scummiest to towniest)
mcmcsalot
liopoil
Glooble
yuma
Dsell (slightly)
neutralish: (scummiest to towniest)
Eevee
Jimmm
Munch
theorel
Towny:
Robz
ashersky
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For the top scumreads, I have some rereading to do; I've noted here and there posts that stuck out to me, but by the end of this week I should have more time to actually go through day1.
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Sorry if you've already mentioned this shraeye, but what made you change your mind about me?
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Oh! So, I can talk about my extra piece of evidence against shraeye now. I hope you guys weren't expecting something super concrete. Anyway, maybe the better way would be for shraeye to address this first.
Shraeye: Why did you continue to post in this game while failing to put an end to Mafia XVIII for like two weeks?
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let's start with mcmc:
mcmc is active in the Jimmm/eevee situation early on. He started off thinking eevee was scummy... but then turned Jimmm into his top scumread, (not voting for either)... I pointed this out and still find it to be a contradiction in that mcmc followed Jimmm's case on eevee and read eevee as scum because of it... but then ended up with a scum read on Jimmm because he "pushed the case on eevee too hard" but he still had a scum read on eevee??
Mcmc then votes ashersky. He does this when he decides to go through person by person, the first person is ash, who he votes primarily for ash's push on raerae. He maintains it for a while, while he analyzes other players such as Robz, me and eevee... but eventually he abandons it because it was an ancient read from a long time ago.
In two posts pretty close together he offers that glooble has done nothing that he found scummy, but then expresses that he would be ok with it, but would want to hear more.
Finally, after posts and posts about how he found Jimmm scummy there is finally a vote: largely due to shraeye's case on him. In the same post he expresses a slight scum read on Cuzz... but doesn't say anythign else about him until Cuzz is at L-1 (where he unvotes Jimmmm) and thinks Cuzz should claim, but says that he would be willing to lynch Cuzz. Another weird thing is that he says he has been "tunneling" Jimmmm.... but he had only been voting for him for 2 posts.... hmmm
Mcmc detaches himself from "the cases" made on Cuzz, but instead says that he finds him scummy because of his reaction. Announces intent to hammer, then 2 posts to raerae and then goes to bed...
Day 2:
So I just glossed through most of day 2 and there were posts, but I struggled to find anything to comment on... this is suspicious to me, a change in posting behavior from the previous day. At least I think it is a change in posting behavior. Let me go through them all to see if they lack the substance as much as I think...
- theory talk
- talking with ash about raerae's death
- answering themunch about the intent to hammer
- theory talk with theorel
- calls out Jimmmm
- comment on shraeye/munch/ash, has a town read on theorel
- theory talk
- theory talk
- theory talk
- theory talk
- explains scummy read on ash
- theory talk
- questioning Jimmmm
- votes ash for his "constant responses"
- would not have been supportive of the shraeye quick wagon
- disagrees with munch's case on him
- explains "constant responses" to me...
So there was more substance there once I went through it fully. I guess my major beef with mcmc are as follows:
1. his contradiction in finding jimmmm's case on eevee scummy but still finding eevee scummy
2. his no read on Glooble, shortly followed by his willingness to lynch glooble
3. his self proclaiming that he was "tunneling" Jimmmm when in fact it was only a vote for two posts...
4. a slight change in posting behavior from the day prior... at least I think it was a slight change. The just seems like less content. I have had this theory before that it is easier to be scum day1, but as the days progress it becomes harder and harder to find things to talk about... see ftl in Robz's giant game for an example--and that was before ftl lost interest--I am talking about day2 and 3, where I called him out on it and he ended up being scum. This is similar to me.
5. his read on ash and his vote on ash. Perhaps part of that is that he hasn't played with ash as much, but... in conversation's about other players he hasn't played as much before mcmc has made a point of "deferring to the elders" about their playstyle... He did so on Glooble, Dsell and someone else... I am kinda curious that he didn't do so in this situation, especially when some of us are offering up opinions on ash.
6. there is very little to no talking about Galzria in his posts... at least nothing stood out. I need to go back and check my analysis of Galz to say what he said about mcmc... (yes, I know mcmc could be scum not aligned with Galz, but I think it is stupid to not try and find galz's partners) and galz expressed a full out town read on mcmc...! If mcmc is scum partners with Galz this would fly in direct contradiction to what I would expect from Galz to do. Hmmmm.
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Sorry if you've already mentioned this shraeye, but what made you change your mind about me?
Cuzz's flip. I was very wrong about him, and things like that make me reevaluate reads. Your day1 I haven't gone through very deeply yet, but day2 you have been helpful in facilitating and contributing in what feel like useful conversations to me. So I'm left feeling somewhat neutral.
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I had a question for you as well, shraeye.
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Shraeye: Why did you continue to post in this game while failing to put an end to Mafia XVIII for like two weeks?
I'm almost at my mafia breaking point right now, I was taking on too many commitments at the start of the semester, and all the mafia games here were feeling like a chore for me to get to. Instead of reducing activity in all of them uniformly, I chose where to put my focus.
This game was moving at such a fast pace, that if I took a break and had to catch up on 10+ pages, I wouldn't be working at my best at all...and really would be just creating more future-work for myself. I really hate trying to play catchup; it's hard.
The MXVIII game was not very interesting to me, as the whole setup had been mostly solved. I knew that Axxle was SK, and I knew that me/Grujah were town there. The ONE thing I had to try to discover was "is ashersky a WW".
I knew that by mentally checking out of that game with so few people in it, I wouldn't hold up discussion, I wouldn't have tons of pages to come back to, I wouldn't miss out on activity. It was reassuring that I had literally the only decision to make. I knew I had plenty of time to do that, and that I'd get there eventually. Then Ozle's game is starting up soon, and I had to make sure to clear my plate before that starts (because I hear they're super fun). So I was excited to see that it was waiting for MXVIII to finish, as I saw opportunity to make my life much better; by waiting until I was more free to end that game.
IF THIS IS YOUR NEW PIECE OF INFO, and you are seriously going to pursue this, I WILL become quite cross. Words will be said. I don't mean to make this a "WIFOM-is he really angry, or does he just think that sounding angry will help" type defense to a "shraeye was playing in here but not in MXVIII argument". If that's the argument you're about to make, I literally won't have it.
raerae can confirm that I'm upset at what I suspect you're about to do. I could go out of my bedroom to yell at Munch and he'd hear that I'm upset. I've told Insomniac via PM when he wanted me to sub for blitz that I'm at my breaking point in mafia. I've held up the start of Pandemic for at least a week because I've been too busy to focus on it. I don't know what else to say. I'm not going to debate my business at you. I've been effing busy, and I've been choosing to let my business affect the smallest subsets of people possible.
Leave that argument out of any case, and everything will be fine. If you insist on making that argument anyway, I will be done interacting with you in this game.
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I had a question for you as well, shraeye.
Answered. My last post is the last I will stomach of that talk. Seriously.
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I had a question for you as well, shraeye.
Answered. My last post is the last I will stomach of that talk. Seriously.
Okay, well I guess it's not worth making you really mad. Dropped, I guess? Hm.
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I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing, really, but my thing is not even like a definite thing, it was just a line of thinking I wanted to pursue. Well, like I said, not worth making you mad...
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Now Glooble:
finds Jimmm scummy and as a result the eevee case not very compelling.... and then votes Jimmm for both the eevee case and the PR claim thing.... votes ashersky, because ash asked why he didn't vote him when glooble called out a defense by ash...
I will note that glooble has a lot of posts, or part of posts that reference his availability or lack thereof... I know scum can become paranoid about how town views their availability in regard to their posting... or it could just be that glooble knows that he is a lurker and is a nice guy and wants to acknowledge that and let us know why...
under a bit of pressure for lurking reveals that he was going to /out of the game... Now as I said before this irked me... well not glooble's response, because I am not one to purposefully question someones IRL obligations and responsibilities... but I was irked that this resonated so quickly with nearly everyone on his wagon. I mentioned before the glooble wagon started that I was interested in reactions and in analyzing reactions... I was particularily interested in glooble's reaction to a wagon on him, but I was more interested in it in the long term... With both the day1 scum/lurker lynches we had in the past the thing that set them up wasn't really their lurking, it was that they both subsequently started to increase the amount of posts after the pressure. I was hoping to see if Glooble would do that, but the immediate let off on pressure didn't really give me a chance. I guess I can analyze it a bit... in that since then glooble has not increased the amounts of posting (sorry for the long tangent there, but I was really hoping that line of thought would pay off and you would all think me a genius and crown me mafia champion...)
similar to mcmc, glooble unvotes ash because it was an ancient read... Glooble starts the investigation into cuzz for his "redirect to glooble" actually shraeye brings it up, but Glooble agrees with and a lot of the rest of the case, and eventually votes for Cuzz... defends some of the points from shraeye's case against theorel's analysis...
Again the post I mentioned before where glooble has a strong town read on Galz and shraeye if Cuzz flips scum, but reverse that if Cuzz flips town... (this still is really scummy to me, especially in light of Galz's alignment
and then is absent for the rest of day 1.
Day 2;
still has a townread on shraeye... But Cuzz flipped town!!! in contradiction to that posted above and wanted to analyze the fast wagon on shraeye... gives some merit to munch's case on ash... is undecided/leaning no in answer to scum between munch/shraeye
well my beef with glooble is as such:
1. lurking, but didn't change lurking habits after receiving pressure, but pressure wasnt' there very long
2. has a lot of availability posts, but like I said... could be paranoid scum or just a nice guy... has glooble done this in the past, tell us his availability a lot, I haven't played much with him.
3. was on the Cuzz wagon, and heavily agreed with shraeye and defended some of shraeye's points (this isn't necessarily scummy, but I disagreed with the case and the defenses)
4. his post about Galz/shraeye in light of the cuzz flip and the fact that he still has a town read on shraeye despite that.
And I can't remember again what Galz had to say about him... Galz said he would be willing to lynch him, but didn't really have a scum read.
So at this point I have a scummier read on mcmc than on Glooble. All of my thoughts on Glooble seem to have a this was scummy, but.... attached onto it.
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I will vote: mcmc
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shraeye is reading marginally Townier than he has (still a scum-read overall though). So while I still have my eye on shraeye, let's Vote: mcmc, my other scum-read, to see what comes of that.
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I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing, really, but my thing is not even like a definite thing, it was just a line of thinking I wanted to pursue. Well, like I said, not worth making you mad...
Perhaps you have more to say. I felt the build-up of a "because shraeye was active here, but not active there where he was a Mason, I find him scummy." If you're going to say something else, then I apologize for pre-"going off the rails."
I didn't mean to stifle a good point if you have one. If you do, please say it. I am eager to hear good points.
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With Odo and Quark both out of the picture, the petty crime rate in the promenade stays remarkably the same.
Vote Count 2.5
ashersky (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Robz888, theorel {L-3}
mcmcsalot (4): The Munch, liopoil, Jimmmmm, yuma {L-3}
Not voting (3): shraeye, Glooble, Dsell
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Quote from Yuma sorry phone posting and messed up the quote.
1. his contradiction in finding jimmmm's case on eevee scummy but still finding eevee scummy
2. his no read on Glooble, shortly followed by his willingness to lynch glooble
3. his self proclaiming that he was "tunneling" Jimmmm when in fact it was only a vote for two posts...
4. a slight change in posting behavior from the day prior... at least I think it was a slight change. The just seems like less content. I have had this theory before that it is easier to be scum day1, but as the days progress it becomes harder and harder to find things to talk about... see ftl in Robz's giant game for an example--and that was before ftl lost interest--I am talking about day2 and 3, where I called him out on it and he ended up being scum. This is similar to me.
5. his read on ash and his vote on ash. Perhaps part of that is that he hasn't played with ash as much, but... in conversation's about other players he hasn't played as much before mcmc has made a point of "deferring to the elders" about their playstyle... He did so on Glooble, Dsell and someone else... I am kinda curious that he didn't do so in this situation, especially when some of us are offering up opinions on ash.
6. there is very little to no talking about Galzria in his posts... at least nothing stood out. I need to go back and check my analysis of Galz to say what he said about mcmc... (yes, I know mcmc could be scum not aligned with Galz, but I think it is stupid to not try and find galz's partners) and galz expressed a full out town read on mcmc...! If mcmc is scum partners with Galz this would fly in direct contradiction to what I would expect from Galz to do. Hmmmm.
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1. I have explained this ad nauseum, I found the way Jimm pushed the case on eevee and made it out to be bigger than it was scummy. This should answer 3. As well seeing as this was the beginning of the game and I continued to find Jimm scummy for most of D1, up to the point I mention I felt I was tunneling him. I was unaware tunneling meant voting for a long time...
2. I don't see how this is a problem at the time I simply had a null read, I guess a crappy way of explaining, I didn't find him scummy but I didn't find him town either, I had no case to make on him but would have been open to hearing one.
4. I have posted less content, along with almost every other player, not only is this game 3 times as large as the two blitz games I played in, this is the first D2 I have ever played as town. RMM (D2 has just started)
5. unvote I agree I voted him because he read scummy to me, many people disagreed and I will unvote for that. Though I am wary of listening to my elders, it along with being to rash lost me ZMX
6. What would you like me to say about him, I agree with much of what has been said about him, I agree with what has been said.
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Mcmc detaches himself from "the cases" made on Cuzz, but instead says that he finds him scummy because of his reaction. Announces intent to hammer, then 2 posts to raerae and then goes to bed...
This is very frustrating, I did not announce intent post twice and go to bed. I announced intent, came back a few hours later expecting to find at most one page of new things, an answer to the question that had still been out there and I would hammer. I instead came back to 6 pages and a mini wagon on a second player, i believe cuzz was not even a L-1 anymore(will check this when im not on movile)So I decided wow maybe lynching cuzz isn't the right idea anymore, I couldn't put my vote down untill I read the 6 new pages which I was not planning on nor wanted to do 7 hours before waking up for class, so I went to bed. Again expecting to wake up to a few more posts, I would read everything and post my thoughts which would have included a vote for cuzz. Instead I once agai woke up to a surprise, thread was locked and cuzz had been hammered.
In summary please stop saying I posted and went to bed as though I didn't care about the cuzz lynch, the game exploded in the few hours I was gone, this is not a blitz game and we were not at deadline.
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Mcmc detaches himself from "the cases" made on Cuzz, but instead says that he finds him scummy because of his reaction. Announces intent to hammer, then 2 posts to raerae and then goes to bed...
This is very frustrating, I did not announce intent post twice and go to bed. I announced intent, came back a few hours later expecting to find at most one page of new things, an answer to the question that had still been out there and I would hammer. I instead came back to 6 pages and a mini wagon on a second player, i believe cuzz was not even a L-1 anymore(will check this when im not on movile)So I decided wow maybe lynching cuzz isn't the right idea anymore, I couldn't put my vote down untill I read the 6 new pages which I was not planning on nor wanted to do 7 hours before waking up for class, so I went to bed. Again expecting to wake up to a few more posts, I would read everything and post my thoughts which would have included a vote for cuzz. Instead I once agai woke up to a surprise, thread was locked and cuzz had been hammered.
In summary please stop saying I posted and went to bed as though I didn't care about the cuzz lynch, the game exploded in the few hours I was gone, this is not a blitz game and we were not at deadline.
Does anyone dispute that this is a perfectly satisfactory answer? At least for Mcmc's hammer not coming... I mean, he's exactly right here the timeframe of it, because I was very active that day and I was around when he said he would hammer and I was still around late at night when he reappeared in the middle of shraeye's mini-wagon. He couldn't even hammer then, since Cuzz wasn't L-1. It was really late at night, I don't think he had a responsibility to stay on and wait it out or even contribute, we weren't at deadline.
I understand that there is more to the case on mcmc than this, but I know liopoil at least cited this as the major reason for voting mcmc, so big FOS: liopoil.
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I'll take the deafening silence as an admittance that I am completely right.
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I can't believe how quickly this deadline is coming up. I see some merit on each of the wagons though I really wish others were interested in lynching Munch. I will review and get in some more content soon...ish.
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I'll take the deafening silence as an admittance that I am completely right.
I would take it as me not reading the thread. I will admit that I am biased because I've read what I've read and I have a narrative in my mind of how mcmc saw things going down so I'm more liable to be swayed by confirmation bias. But that being said, responses like mcmc's (which are perfectly rational explanations for why things went down the way he went down) fit nicely into my narrative of Cuzz. Although it didn't happen, if Cuzz flipped scum, I would have expected mcmc to make some excuse like "But I was going to hammer! I even said I would, I just had to wait." Its an easy position for scum to put themselves into and I dont think mcmc's response gives any points towards him being town.
He can state that he is as frustrated as he likes about my case. He did announce intent, then post twice, then went to bed. If his going-to-sleep post had instead said "hey guys, just a reminder, I am still willing to hammer but i still really want Cuzz's questions to get answered before he gets lynched; make sure that happens before we lynch Cuzz. I'm going to bed." That would come off better to me than what he did post which was "I missed a bunch, haven't read but Cuzz isn't dead. I'm going to bed." This points much stronger to the scenario where he wanted to say he was going to hammer but never actually have to be the one to do it.
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I'll take the deafening silence as an admittance that I am completely right.
He can state that he is as frustrated as he likes about my case. He did announce intent, then post twice, then went to bed. If his going-to-sleep post had instead said "hey guys, just a reminder, I am still willing to hammer but i still really want Cuzz's questions to get answered before he gets lynched; make sure that happens before we lynch Cuzz. I'm going to bed." That would come off better to me than what he did post which was "I missed a bunch, haven't read but Cuzz isn't dead. I'm going to bed." This points much stronger to the scenario where he wanted to say he was going to hammer but never actually have to be the one to do it.
Just the opposite. That overly calculated response would have been much scummier. What he did was perfectly genuine. "Oh crap, people are not ready for the hammer! I'm off to bed."
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I can't believe how quickly this deadline is coming up. I see some merit on each of the wagons though I really wish others were interested in lynching Munch. I will review and get in some more content soon...ish.
I'm not UN-interested in lynching Munch. Just more interested in shraeye.
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I will note that glooble has a lot of posts, or part of posts that reference his availability or lack thereof... I know scum can become paranoid about how town views their availability in regard to their posting... or it could just be that glooble knows that he is a lurker and is a nice guy and wants to acknowledge that and let us know why...
Basically. In previous games I've found if I don't keep people apprised of my availability lots of people will be like "where's Glooble? I haven't seen him in like two days." So I try to mention if I've going to be gone for more than 12 hours just so the information is out there.
Note that I did not say "If Cuzz flips town, shraeye is scum." I said if Cuzz flipped town, shreaye would look scummier to me. And he does. But that just means he's gone from someone I was reasonably certain was town to someone I don't have much of a read on.
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Mcmc detaches himself from "the cases" made on Cuzz, but instead says that he finds him scummy because of his reaction. Announces intent to hammer, then 2 posts to raerae and then goes to bed...
This is very frustrating, I did not announce intent post twice and go to bed. I announced intent, came back a few hours later expecting to find at most one page of new things, an answer to the question that had still been out there and I would hammer. I instead came back to 6 pages and a mini wagon on a second player, i believe cuzz was not even a L-1 anymore(will check this when im not on movile)So I decided wow maybe lynching cuzz isn't the right idea anymore, I couldn't put my vote down untill I read the 6 new pages which I was not planning on nor wanted to do 7 hours before waking up for class, so I went to bed. Again expecting to wake up to a few more posts, I would read everything and post my thoughts which would have included a vote for cuzz. Instead I once agai woke up to a surprise, thread was locked and cuzz had been hammered.
In summary please stop saying I posted and went to bed as though I didn't care about the cuzz lynch, the game exploded in the few hours I was gone, this is not a blitz game and we were not at deadline.
sorry, I didn't make it clear, but it should have been as this wasn't one of my points for voting for you. I am not suggesting that your willingness to hammer and then not hammering was scummy. I disagree with munch and lio on this point. If I had I would have included it as one of my subpoints and talked about it more, the quote from above was just me going through a reread and putting down what I saw. However, I do not think that your behavior makes you more town either. To me, your willingness to hammer is a bit scummy (only because Cuzz ended up being town). But the fact that you did not, potentially because of real life obligations, neither makes you scummy nor does it make you town.
The case I have on you stands alone from that point.
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I can't believe how quickly this deadline is coming up. I see some merit on each of the wagons though I really wish others were interested in lynching Munch. I will review and get in some more content soon...ish.
is there any particular reason we should be focusing on TheMunch that you would like to point out for us. If you really wish for something to happen, perhaps you could do something to make it happen? I don't know. Themunch is somewhere in the middle of the pack for me, but if you put something together I would certainly be willing to look at it. But again, I am leaning more toward mcmc or glooble than anyone else. Although I also think lio could take an extra look as well.
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I support taking an extra look at lio. He's said some sharp things, but he's still on the lower side of posting and I don't like his vote for Mcmc, in light of his explanation. I know some other people expressed scumreads on him.
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1. I have explained this ad nauseum, I found the way Jimm pushed the case on eevee and made it out to be bigger than it was scummy. This should answer 3. As well seeing as this was the beginning of the game and I continued to find Jimm scummy for most of D1, up to the point I mention I felt I was tunneling him. I was unaware tunneling meant voting for a long time...
2. I don't see how this is a problem at the time I simply had a null read, I guess a crappy way of explaining, I didn't find him scummy but I didn't find him town either, I had no case to make on him but would have been open to hearing one.
4. I have posted less content, along with almost every other player, not only is this game 3 times as large as the two blitz games I played in, this is the first D2 I have ever played as town. RMM (D2 has just started)
5. unvote I agree I voted him because he read scummy to me, many people disagreed and I will unvote for that. Though I am wary of listening to my elders, it along with being to rash lost me ZMX
6. What would you like me to say about him, I agree with much of what has been said about him, I agree with what has been said.
Thanks for your responses. I know you have responded to point 1 before, but I still continue to find it scummy. So don't think that I am ignoring your responses. I read them, but they haven't been enough to dispel my suspicion. In looking back and 3 I see that you were very suspicious of Jimmm throughout Day1 and that this behavior could be construed as "tunneling."
I would disagree that every other player has posted less content. Well I mean in substance yes, because there are less posts because this day has been shorter, but I mean more in comparrisson to total posts. This is especially striking because I believe that this day offers more opportunity for talking about subject matter that is actually important and substantial whereas day1 lacked much of that.
Point 5... wasn't so much about you voting for ash--I do continue to disagree that he is scummy, so I am glad to see you unvote--but it was more that you had changed the way you approached voting... Like I said, before you had tried to gauge the opinion of "the elders" before pressing or voting, but in this situation you jumped the gun a bit. It isn't damning, but was suspicious to me.
Point 6... There isn't much you can say about Galz, because of all of the things I list this is the hardest to interpret because it requires a meta-analysis of galz and meta-analysis of a potential scum partnership between the two of you. I think it is possible, if not the most plausible out of the whole group.
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We're at a day and half left of D2. Two viable wagons at this point. Is it time for us to take stock of who is willing to lynch either or both or neither?
I think just about everyone has mentioned a scum read on at least one of the two, and provided reasons for both. There are have been some good defense posts on both, as well.
My worry is, we get one up to L-1, they claim, we drop back and get the other to L-1, they claim, and now we've outed two players, real or fake, and we're stuck at deadline with not wanting to lynch either one.
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That's a fine idea, Ash.
Want to lynch: Shraeye
Would lynch: Munch
Might lynch: Liopoil, (edit: Eevee)
Neutral: Yuma
Slightly against lynching: Mcmc, Jimm
Very against lynching: Glooble, theorel, ashersky, (edit: Dsell)
Who am I missing? Had to go check, okay, Dsell and Eevee (!?). Eevee is being weird here, guys. I get what he said, but lurking Eevee is just like no Eevee I've ever seen, and I've rarely seen scum Eevee.
Uh, I guess I have to add Eevee to the might lynch category. With regard to Dsell, you guys know the drill already.
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Would lynch: Ashersky, Mcmc
Wouldn't Lynch: Shraeye, Liopoil, Yuma
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Would lynch: Eevee, shraeye, mcmcsalot
Might lynch: Glooble, liopoil
Really in this game?: Jimmmmm, Dsell
Rather not lynch: theorel, TheMunch
Would NOT lynch: ashersky, Robz, yuma
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I'm going to do a slightly different version of the lynching thing. I'm going to do it for who I might vote for, not lynch.
Voting: mcmc
wouldn't vote: munch, dsell, eevee, glooble
would vote for if I saw a good reason: everyone else.
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I'm going to do a slightly different version of the lynching thing. I'm going to do it for who I might vote for, not lynch.
Voting: mcmc
wouldn't vote: munch, dsell, eevee, glooble
would vote for if I saw a good reason: everyone else.
Why wouldn't you vote for Eevee or Munch?
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well, the fact that eevee doesn't see the need to act towny is itself towny. He could just be saying that I suppose... doubt it though. I don't actually think he would lurk as much as mafia in this case. Munch has said lots of stuff I agree with, among other things.
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well, the fact that eevee doesn't see the need to act towny is itself towny. He could just be saying that I suppose... doubt it though. I don't actually think he would lurk as much as mafia in this case. Munch has said lots of stuff I agree with, among other things.
But Eevee has like never lurked before in any game I've ever played with him (we are talking 20 games here), and he has almost always been town.
This seems like a flimsy thing on which to acquit someone.
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hmmm, I didn't know that. reconsidering.
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Would lynch: liopoil, munch
Might lynch: glooble, shraeye, eevee
neutral: Jimm, Dsell
wouldn't lynch: Theorel, Robz, yuma
liopoil's recent jumping on yuma's case on me for not even the reason yuma finds me scummy is what has put him and the top of my list. As well as his recent would/would not lynch. We know your voting me, of course you will vote for someone you see a good case on, all you have given us is 4 town reads
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well yes, it wasn't intended to be a terribly informative post. and I wasn't jumpig on Yuma's case. I was jumping on munch's case.
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At this stage my top two would-lynches would be shraeye and mcmc. I'd probably lean towards shraeye, but my vote is on mcmc for the moment to see what comes of that. For the record, I don't think there's terribly much to the hammer thing
Need to go back and read lio and develop an opinion on him. Also Munch.
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Well I for one am a little hesitant to use the "who would you be willing to lynch method (WWYBTLM for short)" as it often results in finding the most common ground, which leaves everyone unhappy and I think trends toward lynching town--at least it did in MVIII where I learned to be wary of it. But I do think we need to come to a consensus before deadline because no-lynch is bad (obviously)... so I will participate but warily.
So:
Would lynch: mcmc, glooble and probably lio (need a full reread (man lots of people wanting to go back and reread lio...), but you could at least put him in the next category down)
Might lynch: shraeye, Jimmm, Robz, TheMunch, Eevee
Won't lynch: theorel, dsell, ashersky, yuma
oh... and everyone is basically in order of preference
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I feel so scrutinized XD... except nobody has actually said much about me yet... I think my newbie pass is coming to an end now that we are in D2 :(
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Lio... can I just say that regardless of what I find here, whenever I type your name it makes me think of the comic strip "Lio" which is a favorite of mine... and it makes me happy.
Day1 -
is on the Jimmm wagon pretty early primarily for Jimmm's argument on eevee, but also a bit for Jimmmm's early claim shenanigans... has a really large post analyzing everyone that gives him some towncred.... (thing that strikes me here is that there is actually analysis and give real opinions, whereas other lists of this type are often full of "null-reads" which results in scum reads on ash, Robz and Jimmmm.... votes robz after I encourage more votes.... switches to a vote on Mcmc but w/o explanation (previously in his big post he said he had a null read on mcmc)... starts to express a confusion and feeling overwhelmed about mid-day.... posting starts to dwindle a bit... agreed with both the votes and the unvotes on Glooble.... From the shraeye/cuzz interaction gets a scum read from cuzz, but town from cuzz, especially finds the deflection argument to be compelling... likes my analysis of mini-wagons... expresses willingness to vote cuzz or jimmmm... ends up voting cuzz after glooble and shraeye and 1 other?.... expresses a townread on Galz and raerae (the two that are night killed...) thinks munch and shraeye are pushing too hard for the cuzz lynch in a scummy way... and isnt' around for the shraeye quick wagon or the lynch.
day2....
has some early theory talk regarding who killed galz/raerae, etc.... and some posts that don't have a lot... votes mcmc sheeping themunch's rationalization regarding the intent to hammer... expresses a town read on everyone else?... says he would vote for everyone else except munch, dsell, eevee, glooble...
so my beef with lio:
1. he is never the perpetuator of a wagon, he always joins. This isn't necessarily scum, especially for a new player that isn't posting super often, but I thought it was worth pointing out... actually now that I think about it, he may have had original votes early day 1... yes he did on Robz... so this point isn't accurate after all.
1. That he was on the Cuzz wagon, that is for starters, but further that he found shraeye and themunch to be scummily pushing a wagon on Cuzz, but that he was still on it. He explains this in that even if they are scum, they are likely scum hunting for the other scum... But still, I tend to not trust the reads of people I find to be scummy.
2. Low post count and quality day2. Same kind of trend that I talked about with mcmc. For scum it becomes increasingly harder and harder to find anything to talk about w/o increasing scrutiny.
3. his mcmc vote sheeping themunch that I disagree with and have a hard time seeing it as compelling reason to vote someone.
4. his post listing who he would be willing to lynch was weird, as was his townread on "everyone but mcmc and galz" just a few posts earlier.
Things going for lio. His confusion/overwhelmed posts day1 read town as did his huge analysis even earlier to that. I don't think i want to switch my vote to lio.
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while I do see reasons to think people besides mcmc are scum, the arguments are way too weak and meta-based to counter the fact that a majority of people in this game are station. Even mcmc is more likely to be town than scum I think, but we "have" to lynch someone, and I think he is our best bet. (by "have" I mean that not lynching someone is a very bad idea.)
where do I express the thought that shraeye and themunch were scummily pushing the cuzz wagon? I do remember saying something about them pushing the wagon, but I don't think I was saying that they could be scum because they lynched town. I think I might have been commenting on how they were saying "c'mon, this day is way too long, let's just end it". This is what I thought to be a bit scummy. I was not anyone to hammer just to end it, in fact, I think I said during D1 that if someone hammers it should be because they think that cuzz is scum, not because they want to end the day. I realize that a long D1 is bad, but if it would mean a better chance of a scum lynch I think it is worth it.
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This is about how I feel about people (refer to my 2 scumScore posts yesterday).
Want to lynch: shraeye
Willing to lynch if it's the most likely wagon: Jimmmmm, ashersky, mcmcsalot, liopoil, glooble
Willing to lynch if given a compelling reason: Munch, Eevee
Won't lynch unless something severely changes: yuma, Robz, DSell
Honestly given the discussion with shraeye since then, his scumScore has actually dropped to around maybe 35 in my mind...It's still the highest one though, and I think his flip would be informative if nothing else.
I'm thankful to yuma for his summary posts, although I would like to reread myself it at least gives me some idea of what's going on. Mostly it just leaves me feeling more or less neutral about those players though, nothing stands out as scum-play, nothing stands out as town-play.
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I'm here - working on a list, but I don't want to half-ass it.
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Blagh. I don't want to no lynch, but right now I can't think of anyone I actually want to lynch. mcmc is probably the person I'm mostly likely to vote for right now, but my read on him is pretty null.
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
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I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
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Also, that's L-2 on mcmc.
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alright whats the deadline on this day, I plan on claiming, it shouldn't hurt town for me to claim though should prove my town. It would still be better if I didnt have to claim, but its not the end of the world.
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7am forum time on Thursday. I believe that's just over 32 hours away.
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oh...um so I got clarification on my role, I do not want to be forced to claim.
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oh...um so I got clarification on my role, I do not want to be forced to claim.
Huh? Like, you asked something just now or you got a random clarification?
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Well, I re-read lio and nothing really jumped out at me. Slight Town I guess, based more on gut than anything else.
Not really sure what to make of this game right now, just really hoping we manage to hit scum today. I would like to see what comes of this mcmc thing, and would like more clarification from mcmc as to what he means.
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oh...um so I got clarification on my role, I do not want to be forced to claim.
Huh? Like, you asked something just now or you got a random clarification?
I assumed my role did something it doesn't, now I don't want to have to claim
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I do think, all things being equal, Mcmc is a significantly worse lynch than other options. Perhaps I don't rightly understand the case against him? can someone summarize it? I think the hammer thing is totally a bad case, now I know several people have said it's not the hammer thing, what else is it?
My vast preference is for shraeye, for several compelling reasons, including his ardent championing of Cuzz's mislynch, even in spite of Cuzz's claim. And I think the best evidence to lynch Cuzz came at the very end, when Cuzz poorly explained his Jimm read, and shraeye was already completely sold on Cuzz by then. Also, I maintain that shraeye, Munch, and raerae operated a de facto alliance, rarely questioning each other, never voting for each other, and each critically defending the Cuzz lynch. Since we know raerae is town, I think there's an extra impetus to find scum here.
I would also lynch liopoil, mostly for putting forth the particularly bad mcmc case, and sort of flying under the radar other than that. I've appreciated that his post seems substantial--at least at first glance--but they've been actually pretty rare, and I think he is the closest thing we have to a lurker (other than Dsell and Glooble, both of whom I think are town).
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oh...um so I got clarification on my role, I do not want to be forced to claim.
Huh? Like, you asked something just now or you got a random clarification?
I assumed my role did something it doesn't, now I don't want to have to claim
Well, I really don't think we should lynch you... but I don't think your exempt from having to make a claim.
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I would also lynch liopoil, mostly for putting forth the particularly bad mcmc case, and sort of flying under the radar other than that. I've appreciated that his post seems substantial--at least at first glance--but they've been actually pretty rare, and I think he is the closest thing we have to a lurker (other than Dsell and Glooble, both of whom I think are town).
I suppose the fact that I didn't really get anything from re-reading him could be an indication of this.
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Okay, I do think the Mcmc lynch is a mistake. I am a 1-shot Tracker. Last night, I tracked mcmcsalot. He took no action. I think this makes him significantly less likely to be scum, given what we know already.
FWIW, I have some (disastrous) experience as a Tracker (in M-XII, where I epic fail at it), but I still think my psychology for picking who to track was pretty much on in that game, so I stuck with it. I don't want to track the obvious people, because the obvious people aren't going to kill anyone (because they expect the tracker to be watching them). This is mafia 101, even in games without a tracker for some reason the less suspicious partner does the kill (Galz always did the kill in M-II; I was more suspicious, even though it didn't matter). So I was not going to track the people who came under heavy suspicion yesterday, which includes shraeye, Jimm, and Eevee basically. I was never going to track Galzria because he's just too obvious a person anyway, and there's always that likelihood he gets nightkilled just for being Galzria--which I bet is what happened here; I doubt a scum faction really thought they were shooting scum in Galz. So I wanted to pick someone who I thought could be scum, but who didn't know that I thought they could be scum. Like, Glooble and Dsell I really didn't think were scum, so I wasn't picking them. Also, just from what I know about my brother, he's like a really gung-ho guy (he posted his phone number in blitz whatever for goodness sake, so people could tell him when the lynch was happening), and it seemed reasonable if he was on a scumfaction he'd be likely to be the one taking the shot, just because he wanted to, in addition to everything else.
Well, he didn't do anything. I've thought about this a lot; this means he's probably not scum, right? If he were scum, and he were on Galzria's team, well, Galz is the rolecop, and it's pretty likely Galz can't take the shot AND rolecop someone, so unless it's a three person team, Mcmc takes the shot there. If Mcmc were SK, he has to take the shot. Of course there's a perfectly plausible scenario where Mcmc is on some other team, and for whatever reason was not the person who took the shot.
But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.
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This is interesting. Unvote. Your reasoning seems sound, and if you're telling the truth, mcmc definitely gets some Town points. As in, almost certainly not SK, almost certainly not in a 2-person team with Galz.
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i can confirm that I took no actions due to my role if that helps
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i can confirm that I took no actions due to my role if that helps
If you're going to keep just bringing up your role you might as well claim.
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unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
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A Bajoran Vedek from a fringe faction starts preaching that the deaths are a judgment upon them from the Pah-Wraiths, who demand more human sacrifices to make things right.
Despite Major Kira's protestations, they start building a pyre in the Bajoran temple.
Vote Count 2.6
shraeye (4): Eevee, ashersky, Robz888, theorel {L-3}
mcmcsalot (3): The Munch, liopoil, yuma
Not voting (5): shraeye, Glooble, Dsell, mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Jimmmmm unvoted.
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Unvote until I can think about stuff later today. no time right now.
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i am sorry about being so useless.
Mcmc=strongest town read, the way he went about his role remainds me of myself when faked with a role I don't know how to handle (so basically anything but a VT). I was going to post this before Robz's claim which makes the read even stronger.
Robz is second strongest town read for me. he has made early claims as town earlier (jailkeeper in casino), and I don't think scum would want to tie themselves to a fake claim that early just to gain town cred. Would actually be sort of clever if you has a real strong town read on mcmc, but I find it VERY unlikely.
I cant fault the people suspecting me really. Now that I know the deadline is near, I'll try to keep up a little better.
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Less than 24 hours until deadline. Do we have some sort of soft deadline in place? Given recent developments regarding Robz and mcmc, I think shraeye is by far the best lynch for today. So I will Vote: shraeye. If we're still going I'll have another look at things tomorrow after work (approximately 15 hours from now).
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But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.
well I think people again... are jumping ship a little too fast. At least it seems like people are giving mcmc a complete pass based off information that may or may not pertain to it. But in reading through robz's post the above stood out to me the most. Because I for one am not PRETTY SURE mcmc is scum. I felt he was the most likely, but not PRETTY SURE. I think we need to continue to look at mcmc, because I did find much of his behavior scummy and we need to remember that, but like Robz said the math is starting to point in a different direction. So I am going to go back to my second scumread and vote: glooble. It appears that everyone is reverting back to shraeye, who I could see lynching, but not as much as I would prefer glooble. Also, and this is secondary to my scumread on glooble, but I am worried that with such a short deadline people are going to start jumping on shraeye because "he is the only viable lynch possible" and we will end up in a similar situation as we did yesterday with the Cuzz wagon...
Per the usual, I will likely not be on until early evening at the earliest and that is getting awfully close to deadline.
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sorry:
vote: glooble
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has some early theory talk regarding who killed galz/raerae, etc.
Depending on how they go about asking it, I've found discussing theory of nightkills to be slightly scummy. Especially if they post in a "now WHY would that happen??" way. It feels like they made a conscious choice trying to confuse town, and then were disappointed when town didn't discuss it. So they're stirring the pot, so to speak.
This is the post that talked about it the most scummily, to me.
Theorel you may have mean this and I jus didn't understand, you said scum would want to spli up on town lynches but wanna all be on town lynches, but in multi ball scum has no idea if a lynch is on town or on scum so this doesn't really tell us much.
Side note, why do we think these two people were killed, galz makes sense to me seeing as he's usually a very helpfull townie,(did anyone have suspicions of galz?) but raerae nk confuses me, I thought she was towny but it seems a lot of people felt she was scum, why would scum want to kill her, she's an easy mislynch to force.
Based on that, and my gut, I'm going to
Vote: mcmcsalot
I'll try to get time to do a reread tonight.
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oh, I see my timing is brilliantly terrible.
I hadn't read further than 1618 at the time of that post.
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Read Robz's claim. Agree with his decision to track unsuspected people. Unvote
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vote: ashersky
For this:
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
Agreeing with Glooble that I'm not being like scumshraeye.
Then immediately reverting to me, because I'm the most likely candidate.
unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
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Ok Blitz day is done. Read Robz claim last night and I really didn't like it from the whole "I hate claiming" kind of way and Robz seems to always surprise me when he claims. I didn't want to just have a reactionary unvote, I wanted to think about it before doing it. But I am now comfortable doing it. I can still see situations where mcmc is scum but I can see how this does make him not necessarily a good lynch for today.
That being said, if mcmc is scum, Robz being tracker and saying that mcmc is town cause of this evidence means mcmc gets a free pass to perform the nk for his team until the end. I guess thats the part that makes me uncomfortable.
I'm going to put my vote back on vote: Ashersky.
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I could get behind an Ashersky wagon. I understand everyone's arguments that "town ash looks like scum ash" but it stands to reason scum ash would then also look like scum ash.
At less than 24 hours to deadline, I like this better than any of the current wagons.
I'm going to look back at a few things before I actually place my vote though.
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So I'm rereading ash's day 2, and his "willing to lynch" is all over the place. Me, shraeye, mcmc, Munch, liopoil, theorel - that's literally half the town. Scum do like to leave their options open for lynching.
Posts for reference:
me
I'd guess the lower posters, Glooble maybe, could be where we need to look for the other MU scum.
shraeye
@yuma -- my read on Shraeye leans scummy, and he's on the would lynch list. But, I'm wary my scum read comes from him sounding a lot like old Shraeye, who read scummy but is town.
liopoil
I think at least one of Shraeye/Glooble/liopoil is scum.
mcmc
It was pro-town not to hammer, I guess, given Cuzz was town. But we didn't know that. And since we have the two scum teams angle, we can't just say straight out "but mcmc KNEW he was town, so he used that for towncred" either. I mean, I get your argument, too.
I just still think it leans further to the scummy side. Maybe it's due to lack of explanation at the time? Like a "guys, you know what, I'm not going to hammer this dude, I think he's town." He just rode it out. Scum does that.
theorel
PS -- If there's a Super Scum Overlord ehunt in this game, it's theorel.
Munch
The hilarity of your wrongness is awesome. Mods are cracking up, I'm sure. If you succeed in this crusade of yours, I look forward to pointing this out post-game, in the wake of a scum win indirectly caused by this.
You know who gets/got a lot out of picking out a supposed scum slip, berating the supposed slipper, and wasting four pages of discussion on it? Scum. You know who did that this game? You.
To be fair, he later clarified that he didn't really think Munch was scum for pushing his "scum-slip". But that doesn't change the fact that he's laying the groundwork for as many lynches as possible.
Yeah, I like this case way better than any of the current ones.
vote: ashersky
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Vote: ashersky I like this case much better than the shraeye case. Ash has been an on and off scum read of mine since D1 and I think glooble's recent evidence is very convincing.
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vote: ashersky
For this:
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
Agreeing with Glooble that I'm not being like scumshraeye.
Then immediately reverting to me, because I'm the most likely candidate.
unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
Woah, this is a huge contradiction, Glooble.
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Bashir's memorial service consists of Vic Fontaine singing maudlin songs to Bashir's ragged-eared teddy bear, Kukalaka.
IT'S BEAUTIFUL. EVERYONE CRIES.
Vote Count 2.7
shraeye (5): Eevee, ashersky, Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm {L-2}
Glooble (1): yuma
ashersky (4): TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, mcmcsalot {L-3}
Not voting (2): Dsell, liopoil
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
That's about 18 hours away.
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vote: ashersky
For this:
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
Agreeing with Glooble that I'm not being like scumshraeye.
Then immediately reverting to me, because I'm the most likely candidate.
unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
Woah, this is a huge contradiction, Glooble.
I'm kind of confused...why did you address that to Glooble? The contradiction is ashersky's. But it's a contradiction of the "this post has good reasoning" and a little later "I'm still voting for that person". I mean I think shraeye gave good reasons not to vote for him. I just don't find the reasons outweighing his scumminess.
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Oops, nevermind. I read Glooble as saying he opposed shraeye lynch, and then later saying shraeye was his second choice... but the second statement was ash. Forget it!
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No, I'm super uncomfortable with lynching shraeye.
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I mean I think shraeye gave good reasons not to vote for him. I just don't find the reasons outweighing his scumminess.
And this is the most disappointing part to me. Both you and Jimmm have recognized that I've given good reasons not to vote for me, yet you both are still voting for me. I wish I could say it was because you guys were crazy scummy, but neither of you are! It's frustrating to me that Robz/theorel/Jimmm are 3 of my 4 townreads (of varying degree) and they all are voting for me. (the other is Munch; ashersky's last contradiction pulled off my townread on him).
Eevee's vote on me is also disappointing, because my summary of Eevee's day2 play is as follows.
- I was right about cuzz!
- I don't know what to do now; conflicted
- Let's not lynch ashersky and instead lynch shraeye (he continues to be my course of action from yesterday); oh also, I don't feel the need to try since enough facts say I'm town.
The one above (post here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg178784#msg178784))feels like he's really just phoning in a holdover vote from Day1 reads which he never bothered updating at all.
- theorel is towny; weird that everyone agrees
- (post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg179601#msg179601)) Cuzz being town was my only read; I've got nothing to add today. Day1 killed me
- (post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg179626#msg179626))if anyone made a case on me, I'd respond. Other than that I have vague reads and nothing to say
- after another huge break, Eevee says "pick anyone, I'll reread them"
- Munch suggests (ashersky's slip; mcmc+hammer;shraeye), and eevee responds (ash is town; i don't know how to analyze that; he was scummy yesterday and I haven't changed...but he's usually good at fooling me
Wait, read that last one for yourselves here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg180156#msg180156). Why did Eevee just imply that I'm fooling him into thinking I'm scum. I mean...that's something you say after you show a townread on someone (he's town I think, but he fools me often). But Eevee is holding out that I may be fooling him that I'm scummy. That's absurd.
- Next 2 posts say "oof, theorel is tough to read"
- Then today, he apologizes for being useless. Forgives us for suspecting him (who suspected him other than me?). Says mcmcsalot and Robz are town
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Sorry, that post started out saying "I don't see how a logical set of reasons not to vote for me doesn't stop anyone from voting for me".
And ended up being "oh wow, Eevee's day2 is crazy."
I'm bumping Eevee way up my scumlist.
mcmcsalot is still high, but I agree that Robz's tracking result of him gives him some credit (not conftown, though; of course not every scum needs to use actions each night...and ninjas).
liopoil is also high, but I haven't had time to reread, so that's mostly feeling.
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Wait, read that last one for yourselves here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg180156#msg180156). Why did Eevee just imply that I'm fooling him into thinking I'm scum. I mean...that's something you say after you show a townread on someone (he's town I think, but he fools me often). But Eevee is holding out that I may be fooling him that I'm scummy. That's absurd.
I think you're misunderstanding that. He's saying you read scummy to him which is weird because he thinks you're usually good as scum as fooling him into believing you are town. There's no implication that you're fooling him into believing you are scum.
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Wait, read that last one for yourselves here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg180156#msg180156). Why did Eevee just imply that I'm fooling him into thinking I'm scum. I mean...that's something you say after you show a townread on someone (he's town I think, but he fools me often). But Eevee is holding out that I may be fooling him that I'm scummy. That's absurd.
I think you're misunderstanding that. He's saying you read scummy to him which is weird because he thinks you're usually good as scum as fooling him into believing you are town. There's no implication that you're fooling him into believing you are scum.
Ok, that would make more sense.
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Eevee's low participation level here has brought him back to the scummier side in my view. I'm also very wary of liopoil.
So those are really the only alternatives to your lynch, shraeye, from my perspective. And I guess Munch.
I still say Ashersky is really town.
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I just reread it, with that interpretation in mind, and I still don't quite see it making sense, theorel.
I'd like others' opinions on it as well, if you all have some time.
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Sorry for being unclear. What I meant was that I've thought you are scummy a lot when you were town, but the times you've actually been scum you've totally fooled me. So you feeling scummy to me is actually sort of a town tell.. meh.
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That's what I thought you sorta meant. So why keep your vote on me? Have you done a reread yet?
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Have not, and I doubt I'll get one in before the deadline, sigh. Uhh, your defenses ARE starting to convince me though. I don't like te ashersky lynch because I think he is being suspected for something he always always does, and the mcmc lynch I strongly disagree with (he is my strongest town read after the recent developments); but I should maybe go glooble or liopoil rather than you.
Fine, I'll vote: liopoil.
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Guys, its starting to look like a very real possibility that we won't be able to reach a consensus today.
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I'll move my vote to liopoil, munch, or Eevee to achieve a vote. I still prefer shraeye. Though not THAT much over liopoil, I guess.
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I'm willing to go liopoil. I recall a lot of little things that put me off.
I'm rereading now.
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I'm not confident enough on my reads to be fine with a nolynch. I'll move to any of the realistic targets if that's needed for a lynch.
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I would vote liopoil to avoid a no lynch. I have very little read on him at all at this point.
Munch maybe. I'd have to think about it. Would prefer not to.
Eevee probably not, though I don't like how quiet he's been today.
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I have expressed before liopoil was my top scum read for the way he jumped on my wagon, I would be supportive of his lynch.
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I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
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This is what I got on liopoil:
More than a few contradictions:
stance on flavorname claiming
I would also be against claiming flavour stuff or anything for that matter.
Oh mine was for a reason. I just didn't bother discussing it in that post. I had stated my ideas in a past post and was just now voting on them.
Just an idea, not sure if it's been said before, and not sure I think it's a good idea, just should be giving thought:
maybe we should all claim flavor names? I'm fairly sure they do contain info about people's role. Not their alignment, but their role.
What changed?
votes mcmc without reason
Early day1, Yuma gave a call to make votes, and liopoil puts his vote on Robz
I see your reasoning for voting more, and I agree with it. Vote: Robz888
Though it lacks reasoning, he provided this when giving his list of reads earlier that day. Of note is his read on mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot: Pretty much no read. maybe slightly more scummy than station, but if I had to guess I'd say town because there are more town than scum. Oh wait, he said I was scummy once. Nevermind guys he's scum! ;)
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Did I do it right guys? ;D
I noted it because the next post after his Robz vote is a blatant jump-on-wagon vote on mcmcsalot.
Well, it seems most people have town reads on robz, and I don't want to lynch eevee. So I'm going to hop on a different wagon. Vote: Mcmcsalot
Yuma expresses discontent that people were voting completely sans reasoning and liopoil defended himself by saying
Oh mine was for a reason. I just didn't bother discussing it in that post. I had stated my ideas in a past post and was just now voting on them
Munch/shraeye scummy for pushing Cuzz hard, but also thinks it's mostly town on Cuzz
Galz and raerae I think are town. Leening scum on ash, but he is confusing. munch, glooble, and shraeye I lean town, but munch and shraeye I think are pushing the wagon too hard, in a scummy way.
Also:
Say you're on a scum team, and cuzz isn't on it. There are fewer scum for you to hunt for than everyone else. As it is jumping on a wagon is a risk because people on a wagon of someone who flips town gets suspected. If you are on another scum team the person who you're voting for is more likely to be town than if you are town. This means people who are scum should be more careful when voting for someone who is likely going to be lynched. So not only are the people on cuzz's team likely not on the wagon, but the people who are scum but not on his team likely aren't as well. there's still guaranteed to be around 5 town not voting cuzz though....
So I'm not sure what he means at all by me or Munch being scummy for pushing the wagon, when he they says that scum would be too careful to be on the wagon (he is also on the wagon at this time).
thinks scumreads on Galz are scummy
yay, things to analyze!
the scum-team with galz on it almost certainly killed raerae. The NK on raerae was most likely an attempt to get the other scum team. There were quite a few people who had a scum read on raerae, and ash was the one who pushed it the hardest. Ash has already addressed this, but I'm not sold on it. ash asked why he would push the lynch just to NK her later? well I'd assume that you would rater lynch her so you can NK someone else, plus if she's scum you get a little town cred. so FoS ash.
...
who thought galz was scum? anyone? anyone who did should similarly have some suspicion.
Here's where he's theorizing on night kills. I mentioned before that there's a scummy way to do this and a non-scummy way to do this. I think this is the non-scummy way. But I noticed the last question at the end? Why would people saying Galz is scum become suspicious? I'm more suspicious of people who had a strong townread on Galz, and I think that is you. In fact your other strong townread was NKed by Galz's team. I find that super interesting, and definitely in the scummy way.
thinks mcmcsalot is only scummy guy
I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
what? I mean I suppose it fits with your theory of scum avoiding the Cuzz lynch, but why are you only suspicious of one person? There are probably at least 3 scum out there still, possible more if we have a 2team/noSK scenario.
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Vote: liopoil
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hey guys! don't lynch me just to lynch someone! how did you guys choose me to be the unlucky one to just randomly lynch? :(
PPE: hooray for munch! haven't read shraeyes post yet. will now. then lots of comments
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Don't lynch anybody without me. I have the rest of the day to catch up and give thoughts.
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I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
Why?
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hey guys! don't lynch me just to lynch someone! how did you guys choose me to be the unlucky one to just randomly lynch? :(
PPE: hooray for munch! haven't read shraeyes post yet. will now. then lots of comments
have you not seen shraeye's post about you or mine?
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I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
Why?
I do not think that he actually has a good chance of flipping scum. He could flip scum but there are reasons that I dont want to talk about that indicate to me that he is not a good lynch candidate for today.
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I realize there is certainly more than one more scum left, and that I therefore must be wrong about some of my townreads, but that isn't going to make me give a scumread on someone who I think is town.
flavor names: woah, I didn't realize that. I actually did not remember that first post. I guess I contradicted myself. is that necessarily scummy though? I wasn't necessarily supporting it in the second post though, I just realized that it should be given some consideration.
That first post about mcmc was early-ish D1, when I did actually have no read on him. I now am convinced he is very likely town, due to robz's claim. well done robz.
scummily pushing wagon: I was unclear, I should have elaborated and further said that this was because I disagreed with lynching him to end the day, like shraeye and munch were saying.
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if a scum has a scumread on someone and there are two teams, than that person is much more likely to NK them. If you think galz is town you will only NK them if you think they are a PR or will push a lynch on you.
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my townread on raerae should now be towny, not scummy. If I was scum and thought raerae was town I would be less likely to NK her! raerae was not about to push a lynch on me and had no signs of being a PR
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well yes, it wasn't intended to be a terribly informative post. and I wasn't jumpig on Yuma's case. I was jumping on munch's case.
Maybe its that Liopoil was sheeping me that is causing me to think the way I do.
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flavor names: woah, I didn't realize that. I actually did not remember that first post. I guess I contradicted myself. is that necessarily scummy though? I wasn't necessarily supporting it in the second post though, I just realized that it should be given some consideration.
The thing is if you actually have opinions on something you tend to me consistent about them. You say you forgot, but I think that kind of forgetting is more likely scum than town. As town, the first time it comes up you actually think "is this a good idea for the town?" and then you say what you think. The second time, even if you don't remember what you said before, you should still go through the same thought process and come to the same conclusion.
As scum, on the other hand, the first time it comes up, your thought process is more convoluted. It's "is this a good idea for my team? is it a good idea for the town? If so, is it worth it to grab town points by agreeing with it, or is it better to do what's actually best for my team? will I look scummy if I support this?" and so on. So when it comes up again, its much easier to come to a different conclusion about what your opinion is.
In other words, I find this pretty solid evidence. And given that ashersky is not going take off before we run out of time, I will go ahead and vote: liopoil
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Caught up.
FOS everyone who bought into my wagon. Shraeye gets under pressure, builds a flimsy case on the easiest lynch in town, me. Whatevs, go for it if you want. But it's ridiculous. I mean, Munch I get. He's a known tunneler of town (even as town). Glooble, he of little content, decides to help "back-up" that case with some fancy quoting, although he's provided very, very little in the way of analysis/content all game. And then super-scummy almostconf!town mcmc sheeps inexplicably, most likely delayed OMGUS.
I still prefer shraeye's lynch, as he's MORE likely to flip scum than lio, and his flip will definitely be more useful than lio's, because shraeye has interacted with plenty of people.
I'm still willing to chalk up lio's inconsistencies and lack of strong reads to being new.
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Can we get a vote count?
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I would agree that shraeye is more likely to flip scum than me :D. he's still at L-2 I believe, and I'm at L-4 I think. if we don't reach a majority at deadline than we auto-lynch whoever has the most votes at the deadline? I would hammer shraeye if it meant preventing my own lynch, so he is effectively at L-1... He is not my preferred lynch, but I would certainly prefer to lynch him than me.
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Caught up.
FOS everyone who bought into my wagon. Shraeye gets under pressure, builds a flimsy case on the easiest lynch in town, me. Whatevs, go for it if you want. But it's ridiculous. I mean, Munch I get. He's a known tunneler of town (even as town). Glooble, he of little content, decides to help "back-up" that case with some fancy quoting, although he's provided very, very little in the way of analysis/content all game. And then super-scummy almostconf!town mcmc sheeps inexplicably, most likely delayed OMGUS.
I still prefer shraeye's lynch, as he's MORE likely to flip scum than lio, and his flip will definitely be more useful than lio's, because shraeye has interacted with plenty of people.
I'm still willing to chalk up lio's inconsistencies and lack of strong reads to being new.
Did you just FOS me for providing content?
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Can we get a vote count?
Won't have time until probably 6:30. You'll have to make do with unofficial.
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Unofficial:
Vote Count 2.7
shraeye (4): ashersky, Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm {L-2}
Glooble (1): yuma
ashersky (2): TheMunch, mcmcsalot
liopoil (2): Eevee, shraeye, Glooble
Not voting (2): Dsell, liopoil
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
That's about 18 hours away.
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Caught up.
FOS everyone who bought into my wagon. Shraeye gets under pressure, builds a flimsy case on the easiest lynch in town, me. Whatevs, go for it if you want. But it's ridiculous. I mean, Munch I get. He's a known tunneler of town (even as town). Glooble, he of little content, decides to help "back-up" that case with some fancy quoting, although he's provided very, very little in the way of analysis/content all game. And then super-scummy almostconf!town mcmc sheeps inexplicably, most likely delayed OMGUS.
I still prefer shraeye's lynch, as he's MORE likely to flip scum than lio, and his flip will definitely be more useful than lio's, because shraeye has interacted with plenty of people.
I'm still willing to chalk up lio's inconsistencies and lack of strong reads to being new.
Did you just FOS me for providing content?
I FOSed you for faking content.
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Can I FoS you for faking a vote count?
I believe that's three people on my wagon, not two.
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Can I FoS you for faking a vote count?
I believe that's three people on my wagon, not two.
Yeah, you can. For having modded multiple games, I'm terribad at getting vote counts right.
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Really unofficial but right now, I think:
shraeye (4): ashersky, Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm {L-2}
Glooble (1): yuma
ashersky (2): TheMunch, mcmcsalot
liopoil (3): Eevee, shraeye, Glooble
Not voting (2): Dsell, liopoil
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
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I still prefer shraeye's lynch, as he's MORE likely to flip scum than lio, and his flip will definitely be more useful than lio's, because shraeye has interacted with plenty of people.
I do not find this correct. What of my flip? One of the best reasons people shouldn't be voting me, is that I really have no person who could be my scumpartner.
Both NKs were on the wagon, so if my any of my "partners" were also there, that would be very dangerous. Also, if scumshraeye had done something like that, then it would be smart play for my partner to bus me hard on day2, giving up one already-suspected scum in a small pool and buying themselves much credit. But as for the people pushing hardest for me I feel like this is Jimmmm/theorel, who weren't on Cuzz.
Off wagon it seems like my most likely partners would be mcmcsalot/Dsell, but both of them are considered very town by many people.
So if I do flip scum, who is suspicious? I don't see any logical person.
And when I flip town, who is most suspicious? Those attacking me? I don't really think theorel/Jimmm are scum, so I think that would be a bad direction if y'all lynch me. If me flipping town is helpful just because you can finally believe that all my cases and suspicions are in earnest, why not start thinking that now? I don't post blind reads without evidence, I always show why my reads are as they are. If you buy into the reason, then you can do so without seeing my alignment. If you don't buy into my reasoning, then even when you learn that I'm town, y'all will just say "he was misguided town."
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I do not find this correct. What of my flip? One of the best reasons people shouldn't be voting me, is that I really have no person who could be my scumpartner.
Both NKs were on the wagon, so if my any of my "partners" were also there, that would be very dangerous. Also, if scumshraeye had done something like that, then it would be smart play for my partner to bus me hard on day2, giving up one already-suspected scum in a small pool and buying themselves much credit. But as for the people pushing hardest for me I feel like this is Jimmmm/theorel, who weren't on Cuzz.
Off wagon it seems like my most likely partners would be mcmcsalot/Dsell, but both of them are considered very town by many people.
So if I do flip scum, who is suspicious? I don't see any logical person.
And when I flip town, who is most suspicious? Those attacking me? I don't really think theorel/Jimmm are scum, so I think that would be a bad direction if y'all lynch me. If me flipping town is helpful just because you can finally believe that all my cases and suspicions are in earnest, why not start thinking that now? I don't post blind reads without evidence, I always show why my reads are as they are. If you buy into the reason, then you can do so without seeing my alignment. If you don't buy into my reasoning, then even when you learn that I'm town, y'all will just say "he was misguided town."
I mean, we'd be able to go back and read your thoughts with your level of honesty in mind. I think those pushing your lynch would be suspected of bussing--this is D2, when I think bussing is more likely, especially if a team member drew suspicion for D1 actions.
As for who your partners are, people have formed opinions, true, but if you flip scum (or town), people will reassess those opinions in light of new information.
Also, if you are SK, you would have no partners, which fits this narrative you've created.
If we lynch lio, and he flips scum, I would be super happy. That would be great. But who would his partner(s) be? If he flips town, what does that tell us about others? Maybe it gives a few town points to those of us who didn't want to lynch him, but I don't see that as a reason to push his lynch.
So I think we just disagree here, on the respective values of the flips.
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Shraeye would not surprise me as the Serial Killer. He did really want to lynch the SK cop.
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Shraeye would not surprise me as the Serial Killer. He did really want to lynch the SK cop.
We're under 14 hours to deadline. Who's convincable on shraeye? yuma? Dsell?
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I would vote Shraeye. Probably not my first pick, but he's up there.
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I did really want to lynch the SK cop. So did Munch, and liopoil (though he didn't want a hammer just to end the day). In fact, so did a lot of people. Perhaps I was just the one person you asked about it, so it sticks out in your mind. I just don't see how this applies to me alone.
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Robz, are you really sold on lynching me?
ashersky, do you see any alternative?
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ashersky, do you see any alternative?
Glooble and Eevee remain options for me.
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I would vote Shraeye. Probably not my first pick, but he's up there.
Dsell, what can I do to convince you I'm not scum? I have been as rational, logical as possible in my defense. I have given solid reasons why I am highly unlikely to be on a mafia team. SK is another issue, I could see peopel thinking I was the SK. But does everyone really want to lynch the SK right now?
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...and lynching SK is better than lynching other mafia. However, shraeye has hardly been playing this game safely like a SK should... :P. I think Munch would vote for shraeye when he sees that the ash wagon has evaporated. He's 100% against my lynch for some reason :D, so I think he'd rather it was shraeye than me, even if he isn't enthusiastic about shraeye.
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I've hardly played this game safely like any scum would. The one strike against me that carries serious weight is my misread and hard pushing of Cuzz. I own that mistake. I can't figure out why regardless of how proactive I've been today, people still want to lynch me.
Remember in Masquerade, when mafia did great just by NKing proactive talkers? Whether or not I'm scum, you all agree that I'm hunting hard, why remove me from the game?
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I mean, everyone can agree that without a doubt, if I am playing towards my wincon (and I always do), that I am looking hard for at least one unit of scum in this game. I feel like nobody has been as proactive as me today, but maybe I'm just biased towards me surviving.
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SK is another issue, I could see peopel thinking I was the SK. But does everyone really want to lynch the SK right now?
Shraeye, I can see times when the "let's keep the SK alive" argument works. I don't think this is one of them. Actually killing (or outing, I guess) the SK gives us a lot of information about the set-up (scum numbers, etc.) and which roles matter.
So if you are the SK, you have two options, I think. Try to convince us you are town and not lynch you, then keep killing--clearly not supporting this option. Or you could out yourself and try to convince us you can help town.
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I've hardly played this game safely like any scum would. The one strike against me that carries serious weight is my misread and hard pushing of Cuzz. I own that mistake. I can't figure out why regardless of how proactive I've been today, people still want to lynch me.
I think this is your strongest defense. It's partly meta, of course, since "scum!shraeye wouldn't play this brashly" is an inference we can make, but safe, smart scum play isn't generally what you've been doing.
Not saying I'm convinced, though. I mean, I could see sk!shraeye decided to really, really scum hunt during the days and kill town during the nights.
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Robz, are you really sold on lynching me?
ashersky, do you see any alternative?
Shraeye, I do weigh your contributions. Really, that is your best defense, you were highly proactive. But so was ehunt in M-XVI.
I'm not sold on you, no. I still think you're the best lynch. I could also go for liopoil or Eevee. Not Glooble.
If you were the SK, yes, I would want to lynch you. Are you the SK?
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I disagree with shraeye being the best lynch, I think his play has been helpful and pro town with reads/cases ect.
I support the liopoil lynch and I guess I don't hate an eevee lynch he does seem to be lurking quite a bit recently.
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Robz, are you really sold on lynching me?
ashersky, do you see any alternative?
Shraeye, I do weigh your contributions. Really, that is your best defense, you were highly proactive. But so was ehunt in M-XVI.
I'm not sold on you, no. I still think you're the best lynch. I could also go for liopoil or Eevee. Not Glooble.
If you were the SK, yes, I would want to lynch you. Are you the SK?
I am not the SK.
I need to know NOW if people will lynch me when deadline rolls around. I will not let that happen.
The problem is time is running out and people are being irrationally defensive of other lynches. Every option taht comes up has someone goin "100% no; i'm never gonna vote for them".
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I disagree with shraeye being the best lynch, I think his play has been helpful and pro town with reads/cases ect.
I support the liopoil lynch and I guess I don't hate an eevee lynch he does seem to be lurking quite a bit recently.
Then vote liopoil NOW. Make it happen. there is no time to delay.
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Robz, are you really sold on lynching me?
ashersky, do you see any alternative?
Shraeye, I do weigh your contributions. Really, that is your best defense, you were highly proactive. But so was ehunt in M-XVI.
I'm not sold on you, no. I still think you're the best lynch. I could also go for liopoil or Eevee. Not Glooble.
If you were the SK, yes, I would want to lynch you. Are you the SK?
So I can promise you I'm not SK. Will you vote liopoil with me?
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Robz, are you really sold on lynching me?
ashersky, do you see any alternative?
Shraeye, I do weigh your contributions. Really, that is your best defense, you were highly proactive. But so was ehunt in M-XVI.
I'm not sold on you, no. I still think you're the best lynch. I could also go for liopoil or Eevee. Not Glooble.
If you were the SK, yes, I would want to lynch you. Are you the SK?
So I can promise you I'm not SK. Will you vote liopoil with me?
My gut reaction is that you are still at least slightly scummier than liopoil. I would like to know what, let's see, theorel, Jimm, and yuma think.
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vote: liopoil I think this is both the most likely lynch to go through and one I support
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I want people to decide as soon as possible between me and liopoil. Or throw out another option; nobody seems to be scrambling to a lynch but me here. And I know I'm under suspicion, but there are people who are vocally against my lynch that are doing nothing to give a better alternative. Shame on them.
Also, do not derphammer.
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Well, I'm decided on you shraeye. I'm not unshakeable, I do weight your huge activity today. Liopoil hasn't done nearly as much as you, he's kind of a lurker, I don't think his point of view is very consistent...
Blah. Maybe I'm talking myself out of it.
I am currently going to keep voting for you to be lynched shraeye, but it's not too late to sway me. But really, I'm not sure what you need to say. I think I need to confer with smart people. I'd really like to hear from theorel, jimm, and yuma.
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Well, I'm decided on you shraeye. I'm not unshakeable, I do weight your huge activity today. Liopoil hasn't done nearly as much as you, he's kind of a lurker, I don't think his point of view is very consistent...
Blah. Maybe I'm talking myself out of it.
I am currently going to keep voting for you to be lynched shraeye, but it's not too late to sway me. But really, I'm not sure what you need to say. I think I need to confer with smart people. I'd really like to hear from theorel, jimm, and yuma.
I too wish for them to get online quick and state their firm opinion.
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I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
I dont know what to propose as an alternative to make the choice not between liopoil and Shraeye. I really want to lynch Ashersky but no one seems to behind this. Liopoil, are you prepared to do whatever it takes to not get lynched like Shraeye?
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I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
I dont know what to propose as an alternative to make the choice not between liopoil and Shraeye. I really want to lynch Ashersky but no one seems to behind this. Liopoil, are you prepared to do whatever it takes to not get lynched like Shraeye?
So if it came down to liopoil/me, you would remain unvoting?
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I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
I dont know what to propose as an alternative to make the choice not between liopoil and Shraeye. I really want to lynch Ashersky but no one seems to behind this. Liopoil, are you prepared to do whatever it takes to not get lynched like Shraeye?
So if it came down to liopoil/me, you would remain unvoting?
I'm convinced enough that both of you are town that I am not willing to vote for either of you. I am voting for Ashersky however.
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I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
So you think the evidence against shraeye is bad, because it should also convict you, and you know yourself to be innocent?
Or you're just bothered by it because it's sort of not fair to shraeye?
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So you think the evidence against shraeye is bad, because it should also convict you, and you know yourself to be innocent?
I just don't get it, because the only "evidence" against me that I see is that I was eager to lynch Cuzz, despite him claiming town-alignment-not-guaranteed SK-Cop.
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I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
So you think the evidence against shraeye is bad, because it should also convict you, and you know yourself to be innocent?
Or you're just bothered by it because it's sort of not fair to shraeye?
The former.
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So you think the evidence against shraeye is bad, because it should also convict you, and you know yourself to be innocent?
I just don't get it, because the only "evidence" against me that I see is that I was eager to lynch Cuzz, despite him claiming town-alignment-not-guaranteed SK-Cop.
I mean, theres been more than that but nothing has been strong. Just people fueling their own suspicions for no reason. Confirmation bias that I am often too guilty of. But any time people seem to accuse Shraeye of something new I feel like "hey, I've done that too" pops into my head and it really weakens the Shraeye case to me.
Theres also the continuous fear that people are going to be convinced to fallback on the "one of Shraeye/munch is scum" then if I'm right about Shraeye, I'm going to get lynched super quick and we walked right into a double mislynched.
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raerae has my permission to post vote counts and mod announcements as a backup mod for the remainder of the game day, as I will be V/LA. Please treat her blue text as mine.
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Munch, other than me, who else are you actually willing to lynch? This close to deadline, it's anti-town of you to limit yourself to one person.
I agree with you that liopoil isn't a great lynch for today. We disagree on shraeye, fine. How about Glooble? Robz isn't a fan of that lynch, but he'll do the right thing if it gets to deadline.
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yes, I am willing to do anything not to be lynched. anyone besides me getting lynched gives me a better chance of winning this game, unless they are station and have a better role than I. The deadline is at a rather inconvenient time for me... I would prefer if this day were over very soon, as I can not post in the last 9 hours before the deadline at least.
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I think I have strong opinions on my short list but a strong lack of reads otherwise.
I would be willing to lynch the following players if it meant not lynching shraeye or liopoil: eevee glooble theorel jimm robz
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Okay, we have me, Munch, and Robz willing to vote Eevee. Liopoil would vote Eevee if we told him it would keep him alive.
Shraeye? How do you feel about Eevee?
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Yes to Eevee, here was my reread of him (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg181476#msg181476).
Day 2 has been really strange from him; he claimed that there were enough towny facts from day1 that he didn't care to try today. I don't remember the towny facts that Eevee is claiming.
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Let's try this:
vote: Eevee
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Vote: Eevee
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vote: eevee
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We started from zero on Eevee, so that's 3.
And before people start bemoaning the "quickwagon," I argue this is NOT a quickwagon, it is a planned wagon based on cases/reads ahead of a looming deadline to ensure a no lynch doesn't happen.
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Eevee has mentioned he thought I was scum many times, and he started my wagon. And that's a bit scummy, because I'm not scum. Plus he lurks even more than me! (this day at least). But yeah, shraeye and I would both probably vote for anyone besides ourself if it meant saving our life. I'm not super-confident about Eevee, so I won't vote yet. But if we needed it to get a lynch I will.
what happens at the deadline if nobody has hammered? whoever has the most votes at the time is lynched right? nolynch in case of tie. correct?
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I just looked at the second post. If nobody has 7 votes it's a no-lynch, regardless.
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shraeye: 3 votes
eevee: 3 votes
liopoil: 2 votes
If you count me on eevee and shraeye, and shraeye on me, because our votes will be in those places if needed then it's, in the same order, 4-4-3. So at least 3 other people need to change their mind for us to get a lynch.
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Eevee has mentioned he thought I was scum many times, and he started my wagon. And that's a bit scummy, because I'm not scum.
This is incorrect. Town!Eevee doesn't know you are town, so thinking you are scummy and/or starting a wagon on you is NOT inherently scummy.
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yes I know that, but scum will say that town are scum on average more often than town will say that town are sum (or scummy, etc.) This is why people on the cuzz wagon should get scrutinized more. Shraeye and I were both on that wagon, and we are two of the three likely lynches today.
This game always has chaotic ends of days.
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hey guys I'm here right now, but will be gone until after the deadline in a couple hours... :( so If there's anything you want me to address before the end of the day then now is the time...
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Give me your current read on Jimmm, please. And Dsell.
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oh, yuma too.
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I don't have a problem with the movement to Eevee. And I may vote for him. But right now it's just the same people moving back and forth. Still need input from the people I mentioned previously. And Dsell.
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wait, why do you want to know about them? Oh I get it, if I die you want to know what my reads were. Okay. Gonna re-read each one a little to solidify reads, then will post.
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I don't have a problem with the movement to Eevee. And I may vote for him. But right now it's just the same people moving back and forth. Still need input from the people I mentioned previously. And Dsell.
Because we're the active players worried about deadline.
Big FOS at the lurkers right now, of whom Eevee sticks out due to generally being active in games when they matter.
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I'll do Jimmmmm first.
He hasn't posted since right after robz claimed. He needs to get in here. as do the other two people you mentioned actually. Has been a fair bit less active D2 compared to when he was the top poster D1, not sure what this means. I think he's been trying to stay neutral on topics a bit too much. I guess slight scumread, though not nearly as strongly as I thought he was before. I just read all his posts in the last 10 pages, and there wasn't too much of ay significance. I would much rather lynch Eevee than Jimmmmm, not only because an eevee lynch would give us more information, but because I still think Jimmmmm likely has a PR, which, while is bad if he's scum, isn't as good as if he's town. A one shot vig would actually fit quite nicely with what he said early I think, and that's a town role right?
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Yeah, we definitely need Jimm, Eevee, theorel, Dsell to say something, they haven't talked in a while and we have a deadline coming.
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Yuma: For the most part I think his analysis of me was very fair and accurate. He hasn't posted for even longer than Jimmmmm. He still isn't lurking though, and has, somewhat like theorel, been very helpful in his posts. Has done pretty much nothing to get people suspicious of him, and does anyone have a scum read on him? I don't for sure. I hear Yuma is good at doing this, and has done it quite well as scum, and so people call him "invsiyuma", which is to some extent true here. Still, townread.
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Yeah, I want to hear form yuma too.
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Dsell: he's going to be hard to lynch this whole game because of that first post. His last few posts have been about how he'll post later and the such, so I'm hoping he'll be here soon so he can actually put a vote on someone... but yeah, he hasn't contributed much. It an eevee-dsell scum team would be totally awesome, with them planning the stint before the game started... this actually fits a bit because eevee was suspicious of galz right... so they could be the maquis. If we lynch eevee and he flip maquis we should actually consider dsell I think....
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I'm semi-here but at work. I support the shraeye lynch, but when I get home in ~3 hours I'll reread at least shraeye and lio.
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I too am here, have kinda kept up via e-mails, but need to reread everything... will reply as I go along and put down my thoughts and answer questions...
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There has been a lot of vote movement since Robz claimed, to help me understand it and to provide a record of who voted who, and more importantly, who was wiling to vote for whom, I will list it here:
Jimmmm unvotes
ashersky votes shraeye
lio unvotes
Jimmm votes shraeye
yuma votes glooble
shraeye votes mcmc
shraeye unvotes
shraeye votes ashersky
themunch votes ashersky
glooble votes ashersky
mcmc votes ashersky
eevee votes lio
shraeye votes lio
glooble votes lio
mcmc votes lio
ash votes eevee
shraeye votes eevee
themunch votes eevee
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Vote Count 2.8
shraeye (3): Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm
Glooble (1): yuma
Lio (3): Eevee, glooble, mcmcsalot
Eevee (3): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch
Not voting (2): Dsell, liopoil
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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I think that everyone who is here should say who of eevee, shraeye, and liopoil they might vote for today. here's what I think we have so far, at least:
liopoil: eevee, shraeye
Shraeye: eevee, liopoil
Munch: eevee
Robz: all three?
Jimmmm: supports shraeye lynch at least
is this right?
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Leaving now, I'm going to try to be back just before the deadline. I think Eevee is not only more likely than shraeye to be lynched, but also more likely to flip scum, and a more informative lynch. Vote: Eevee
Munch: you say you oppose my lynch 100%... so please do whatever you need to do to stop them from lynching me. ;)
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well at this point it looks like the viable lynches are eevee, lio and shraeye.
So I would be wiling to lynch all of them, that has not changed from my post yesterday as all were in that range specifications. The thing is that I have reservations about all of them.
Eevee - LALL yes, but eevee knows this.... He has been around and I just have such a hard time seeing scum eevee be willing to lurk to the extent that he has and be scum. The one thing that stood out to me from his--aside from the obvious lurking--was somethign shraeye pointed out. It was his "I am not surprised that everyone is suspicious of me" when shraeye said only he had been suspicious of him. That is typical scum... so self obsessed with their scum image that one read turns into everybody...
shraeye - like he has mentioned he has been super active and pushing forward. He said that he has been one of the most outspoken and pushing of town and I would agree in putting him up there with myself and ash as the driving force of day2. He was also an extreme pusher of the cuzz wagon. This is both points for an points against.
lio - Lurking and not much content, but in my reread of him there just wasn't much there to find scummy. Perhaps that should be scummy in and of itself, but it just wasn't...
Also I think that when we are looking for someone to lynch we really need to be looking for someone that fits the bill of a potential partner with confirmed scum Galz. I don't think it is mandatory for that person to fit that bill, but I would strongly suggest it. In checking back with my further analysis of Galz's comments I find: that galz expressed a townread on Eevee all game even when he came under pressure... found lio scummy only because of Cuzz wagon... and had a slight town read on shraeye, but could lynch.
How about these players talking about Galz day1.... Eevee was suspicious of Galz very, very early... He continued this read into mid-day... but never really said why... mentions that he was underposting and "doesn't feel like town Galz" But then switches gears completely and finds Galz "very townie" because of the post he wrote about how there really aren't lurkers in this game and can't use that to read people... and as a result tries to divert attention to one of the most active players in the game...
At this point even before reading the other's thoughts on Galz... I will reread, but I am wondering if I will find anything as good as this... I am willing to vote: eevee I mean. Lurking today... Acting somewhat like an IC because of his townread on Cuzz.... Him feeling like there was a lot of suspicion on him earlier when it appears there was only shraeye... but mostly because of Galz's extreme townread on Eevee coupled with eevee's back and forth read on galz and his attempt to deflect attention away from Galz's lurking and get a lynch on an active poster after Galz's famous lurking isn't scummy in this game post...
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that puts eevee at L-2
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I've said this before I support the liopoil lynch and the eevee lynch is not a terrible alternative, his lurking is quite a scum tell.
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but to be thorough... here is what lio and shraeye said about Galz.
lio:
early has a null, pretty town read on him. and later expresses townreads on Galz and raerae from the Cuzz wagoners... and that is it.
shraeye: in a quick read I don't think shraeye expressed a definitive read on galz, but shraeye didn't make definitive reads on everyone yesterday. for exampel I don't think he made on me either... so not so concerned about that...
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I'm always out Wednesday evening, which made this a bad deadline for me, but whatever. I'm here now and I'll be back before 7am.
For the most part my reads are the same as before: yuma, DSell, Robz seem town, even if one of them is scum I'd rather postpone lynching any of them.
mcmcsalot: Robz tracked with no result. That's a good enough reason not to lynch him for now.
liopoil: munch is 100% opposed to. Good enough for me, with Munch being on the town-side of neutral and liopoil being on the neutral-side of neutral.
shraeye: if he's scum and he wins I'll be upset. It's true that many seem unlikely as his partners...but I feel like that's part of not really looking for scum-teams/scum-pairs in the early game. There are just too many people to make conclusive statements regarding that. 2 scum on-wagon killing one other player on-wagon isn't unheard of ridiculous, especially if they were gunning for scum (which does happen a good bit in multi-ball). 3 scum on-wagon killing other players on-wagon is not so ridiculous, especially when he can make the claim "I surely wouldn't shoot someone on-wagon". I dunno, as I said before it's not bad reasoning. I just can't shake the feeling he's scum working some rational but flawed arguments (a lot like he did to convince people to vote for Cuzz). Anyways, I'm still up for his lynch. But, it seems like that's just not going to happen for whatever reason (I'm a little suspicious of the way it keeps getting derailed also).
Eevee: I've suspected since almost the beginning of the game. I think the arguments about his Day2 play being scummy are actually pretty good. The only argument I have for him being town is that known-scum Galz gave him such a strong town-read which seems unlikely. But if I'm honest with myself, that's no more unlikely than the things I'm discrediting in shraeye's defense. I'm fine with this lynch. And I'm willing to vote for Eevee to make it happen. I would do so now, but I would rather someone else put him at L-1 and I'll hammer in the morning if needed. (I'll be on before 7am) Eevee should have a chance to respond and he has that whole timezone thing going on. If you guys want me to put in the L-1 vote now, I'm willing. (up until I go to bed).
I'm going to post this, and work on the other folks afterwards to put in what might be my last words on them.
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mcmc may be willing to put Eevee at L-1.
In response to lio's question:
I think that everyone who is here should say who of eevee, shraeye, and liopoil they might vote for today. here's what I think we have so far, at least:
liopoil: eevee, shraeye
Shraeye: eevee, liopoil
Munch: eevee
Robz: all three?
Jimmmm: supports shraeye lynch at least
is this right?
ashersky: eevee, shraeye, liopoil (in that order, but really prefer one of the first two)
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vote: eevee he has not been around nearly enough, I would say he hasn't been around much at all, but he was scum in the recent blitz game and seemed to do this whole checking in thing hes been doing here.
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Munch: I'm convinced enough that he isn't Galzria's partner, although I suppose this should extend to shraeye as well (bah). He's got more options than shraeye if he's on an opposing team though. Honestly if it was just being on the Cuzz-lynch I agree he'd look as guilty as shraeye, but in the approach they each took to pushing the lynch, shraeye looks so much worse to me.
ashersky: I don't share Robz' extreme town-read here. I can seem him kind of like Morgrim in his mislynch characteristics (i.e. he just says some scummy things). However, unlike Morgrim he's been correctly lynched before as scum as well. I'd lynch him over any town-reads, but still think that letting the game play out around him is reasonable. There's always the potential that he'll get investigated and then we'll just know.
Jimmmmm: He's a lot like Eevee really in terms of super-active day1 less active day2. I also suspect him as a potential partner for Galzria (given raerae's death). Both of them support the one-on, one-off that's more likely given the on-wagon shot. OTOH, I thought he was likelier as town yesterday than I found Eevee, and he has pre-claimed a desire to claim before lynching. We're too close to deadline for me to be happy with the situation that claim would leave us at.
Glooble: I don't really get his strong town-read on shraeye (which he had yesterday too). I actually do feel like he's been contributing pretty well today especially as compared to yesterday, though I don't necessarily have a strong sense of where he stands (outside shraeye). I don't think I've agreed with much of what he's said, but that's fine. I'm still pretty much neutral here, maybe worth looking at him later.
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Vote Count 2.9
shraeye (3): Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm
Lio (3): Eevee, glooble, mcmcsalot
(L-1) Eevee (6): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot
Not voting (1): Dsell
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline is Thursday, January 24th at 7:00 am forum time.
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Okay, Eevee is currently at L-1. Theorel has stated his intent to hammer before the deadline, but still giving Eevee a chance to respond/claim/whatever he wants.
I would hazard to say most people would be with me in finding any derphammerer super scummy.
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short-form response to the specific question of shraeye, liopoil, eevee.
in order: shraeye, eevee. liopoil if you were the only one at L-1 at 6am I would hammer to get a lynch.
So, just to be clear: I'll be online around 6am tomorrow to hammer. That's close to deadline, and understandably someone might hammer before then (it often happens in this situation), or y'all might even lynch someone else. You know all my reads as they stand currently.
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I would really prefer that someone... anyone really hammer before we get that close to deadline... the last time we got that close, people got cold feet and the lynch didn't happen... anyone remember MVIII... I do, a no-lynch wasn't very fun. And it was a similar time, early in the morning and people who said they were going to get online at a certain time didn't... it was bad.
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with that said... we do need to hear from eevee.... hopefully sometimes soon.
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Possibly Robz could be back on in that time--he could hammer.
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I am here, and am available for the next 2 hours or so, and then will not be on again until after deadline.
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I would really prefer that someone... anyone really hammer before we get that close to deadline... the last time we got that close, people got cold feet and the lynch didn't happen... anyone remember MVIII... I do, a no-lynch wasn't very fun. And it was a similar time, early in the morning and people who said they were going to get online at a certain time didn't... it was bad.
That's valid.
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Well, my suspicion of Eevee was super high on Day 1, went down on Day 2 after Galz's flip made him a less likely scum... and since then he has lurked his way back up to scum territory. Let me also point out that the latest blitz game was a good example of scum!Eevee lurking.
However, I think Eevee might just be a bit mafia fatigued, so I'm not sure if scum!Eevee is really a lurker, or it just so happens that Eevee is starting to lurk more and getting scum roles.
But... yeah, I can hammer Eevee, if that's the direction we're going. I would probably still rather get shraeye. Well, shraeye has been really helpful Day 2, and Eevee has not been. Yeah, okay.
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I THINK this is his sleep time right now though.
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We aren't going to hear from him in the next 2 hours. I don't know if we'll hear from him by deadline. If not, major FOS to him.
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I THINK this is his sleep time right now though.
I mean, it's day time in Finland. But I feel like he does lead a bit of a noctural life given his occupation.
I don't know.
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We aren't going to hear from him in the next 2 hours. I don't know if we'll hear from him by deadline. If not, major FOS to him.
You can't major FOS the guy if he's going to be the lynch. If you are fairly positive he won't be on, you could just hammer.
Problem is, I don't think joth is back to give the flip until after deadline anyway, so we get extended twilight. Could be useful for Eevee.
Then again, raerae can lock the thread, even if she can't give the flip.
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Well, I sort of don't want to do it, on the off chance Eevee's claim has merit. Of course, the only thing that matters probably is him being one of the Cops, and that doesn't mean he's not scum, and there won't be time for any other Cop to counterclaim him if he's just making it up.
I don't know. I can hammer before I go to bed (in the next hour), or everyone on the Eevee wagon should just keep their vote there and theorel can hammer him right before deadline. I understand yuma's worry about that though.
Well, I can just do it.
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Well, I sort of don't want to do it, on the off chance Eevee's claim has merit. Of course, the only thing that matters probably is him being one of the Cops, and that doesn't mean he's not scum, and there won't be time for any other Cop to counterclaim him if he's just making it up.
I don't know. I can hammer before I go to bed (in the next hour), or everyone on the Eevee wagon should just keep their vote there and theorel can hammer him right before deadline. I understand yuma's worry about that though.
Well, I can just do it.
I think your point that whatever Eevee claims, it'll be fake or won't be in time for discussion. You can probably hammer if need be. I would not consider it a derphammer.
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Yeah. It's just going to be Eevee or no one, now.
(Of course I can see it: "You've lynched Eevee, the Town-Doctor/Jailkeeper/Vigilante/Neighborizer.")
Well, there's nothing else to do, and he is a scumread.
Vote: Eevee
This feels weird, I guess I almost never actually cast hammer votes. Well anyway, here we go.
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I don't know what to think of this. Other than, geez I just don't have as much time these days. I am really unsure on Eevee, he is definitely not the most clear but he is far from the scummiest to me.
I am sad and sorry to miss another day end, hopefully Eevee is scum and we'll get some real info.
Fwiw, yuma's case on mcmc from a while back was looking a lot stronger than I originally thought. I have a very strong town read on Robz, but he could be wrong about his brother. Also still have strong town reads on Theorel and yuma.
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Just got back from the poetry slam. And.. I missed the day end. For what its worth, I think liopoil and ashersky both would have been better lynches.
I hope Eevee is scum. I really do. I don't have high hopes though.
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Just got back from the poetry slam. And.. I missed the day end. For what its worth, I think liopoil and ashersky both would have been better lynches.
I hope Eevee is scum. I really do. I don't have high hopes though.
Disagree on ashersky, sort of agree on liopoil. But it was too late to lynch anyone but Eevee.
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THREAD LOCKED.
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"Stop!" Major Kira cries to Vedek Whatshisname. "These sacrifices won't solve anything!"
The Vedek grabs her ear. "This one's pah is strong. The Pah-Wraiths have chosen her to be the sacrifice!"
Major Kira is wrestled by the loyal Bajoran cultists onto the pyre. She has no chance.
But since she doesn't try to get out of it by seducing the Vedek, it's clearly not the Intendant (Kira's Mirror Universe counterpart). And a search of her comm records reveals no contact with the Maquis. Add to that her conspicuous, non-reversion to goo, and it's clear she was loyal to Deep Space Nine.
Eevee has been lynched. He was Major Kira Nerys, the Station-aligned 1-shot Vigilante.
Vote Count 2.10
shraeye (2): theorel, Jimmmmm
Lio (3): Eevee, glooble, mcmcsalot
Eevee (7): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
Not voting (1): Dsell
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Night Action deadline is Midnight, EST Saturday, January 26th.
Thanks to raerae for her help.
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People got their NAs in fast, so I may start the day early, like at noon. PM/QT me if you have an objection.
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Good news and bad news this morning.
Ben Sisko wakes up from uneasy dreams to discover his son is not at the breakfast table.
"Computer, locate Jake Sisko."
"Jake Sisko is not on board the station."
Sisko calls up the new security chief, formerly one of Odo's deputies and a search begins. His body is found stuffed into an ore processing shaft with a phaser wound in his back. The autopsy finds he was also poisoned, strangely.
The good news, though, is no one else died last night. The bad news is that shraeye was killed. He was Jake Sisko, Station-aligned Innocent Child.
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is February 8th at noon.
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
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Oh and raerae is totally hired as full back-up mod if she wants the job.
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I agree with this. Also Robz, who did you track? What did you find out? (unless you want to wait to share your information)
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I would say based on flavor that both scum-teams targeted shraeye. Phaser Wound + poisoned.
Sometimes you really should read the flavor Robz...
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I would say based on flavor that both scum-teams targeted shraeye. Phaser Wound + poisoned.
Sometimes you really should read the flavor Robz...
OOH. I never read flavor. Interesting. Okay, never mind, both scum teams killed shraeye, that's what the flavor states.
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I agree with this. Also Robz, who did you track? What did you find out? (unless you want to wait to share your information)
Nobody. I was one-shot, man.
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Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I agree with this. Also Robz, who did you track? What did you find out? (unless you want to wait to share your information)
Nobody. I was one-shot, man.
Oh missed that, sorry.
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Also Vote: Ashersky. Its a new day. I am still comfortable camping my vote on him until either people agree with me or a better option comes along.
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Okay, so Eevee: town, shraeye: town.
I reread Galzria, and the last little bit of shraeye from Day2 (back to his list of reads).
Where does that leave my reads?
I'm leaning a little town on Glooble...obviously his town-read on shraeye could have been real even if he's scum, and he hoped to get town-cred for it. But, I'm definitely giving him some credit for his opposition to a popular lynch who wasn't aligned with him.
Robz still feels a little townie to me, but...hmm...I'm starting to get suspicious of that behavior given his recent display of that behavior as scum (ZMX was it?). Someone who was town in that game, does this feel similar to you? (I just got it in passing as I skimmed the thread).
Ashersky seems a bit scummier based on early game stuff from Galzria.
liopoil: seems scummier as well.
yuma: I'm beginning to reconsider the town-read on him. I also noticed Galzria mentioning yuma a lot in the early game.
Munch/Jimmmmm: I'm finding them townier.
Dsell/mcmcsalot: still seem townie enough to me.
So in brief:
Scummy: ashersky, liopoil
Neutral: Robz, yuma
slight-town: Munch, Jimmmmm, Glooble
more-than-slight-town: mcmcsalot, DSell.
Anyways, that's where I'm left at the moment. I would actually like to reread liopoil, but I'm going to go do some actual paying work instead...I will reread him sometime today though.
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Glooble:
But, I'm definitely giving him some credit for his opposition to a popular lynch who wasn't aligned with him.
That came out wrong. I'm giving him some credit for his opposition to a popular lynch because if he were scum he was opposing a lynch that wasn't aligned with him.
If that town-credit is deserved (i.e. he is town) then he was opposing a lynch that was aligned with him actually.
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To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
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To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
This is an interesting post.
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Town reads: Robz
Townish reads: Yuma, now-theo
Scummy on wagon: TheMunch, mcmcsalot
Scummy off wagon: Glooble, Dsell
I think likely at least one scum on wagon. With ten alive and probably 2-3 scum remaining, it'll be harder for them to stay off.
I'm feeling its more likely an SK than maquis team out there.
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So now that we know eevee is town, I still say liopoil is my biggest scum read for the same reasons he had a wagon on him yesterday. The wagon on him was small but was not cleared, the eevee lynch just went through without liopoil needing to defend himself. I'm going to reread and see why this wagon didn't gain much traction.
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okay so I went back and looked at who was pushing the shraeye lynch, these people are most likely to think shraeye is scum therefor most likely to nk him. The people pushing/voting shraeye were ashersky, robz, theorel, and jimm. As I have strong town reads on robz and theorel that leaves us with ash and jimm. Both of these I have found scummy at some point but lost the reads through the large amount of posts. So I looked at the next concrete thing, who redirected the liopoil lynch to eevee someone I found scummy and thought was a good candidate. Looing back it was ashersky who almost looked past the liopoil wagon pointed out that noone was going for the shraeye wagon and decided to vote eevee to see if that would work. This wagon built quickly as there were solid reason to lynch eevee and that is what we ended up doing. So at the cross roads of these two points is ashersky.
vote: ashersky As I find these reasons to be more concrete than liopoil's lurking and his very weak defense of the wagon built on him.
My third top scum read is themunch, because he at one point said he was 100% convinced liopoil was town and just a few posts later said maybe there thoughts were just matching up and that was causing his read on liopoil. That is two very different feelings about someone.
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vote: Glooble
He's escaped scrutiny far too long.
6 to lynch, right? Be sure to warn me before mislynching me. Claiming is probably useless.
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another deflection, just ignore my case and say hey this guys scummy, you also provide no case on him other than hes escaped scrutiny.
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woah, night is over! that was quick. question: doesn't innocent child mean that the mod tells us all that shraeye is town? I don't understand...
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I feel like waving some of my reads. Munch specifically. With shraeye being town, I don't think it's fair to munch that I keep to the evidence that points to him next. I've just been very wrong.
Ashersky and Glooble, I may have gone too far toward saying they are definitely town. I still think they are town though.
Mcmc is a night evidence based read, so that would remains for now.
Theorel I should probably stop considering definite town. He's done the same toward me which makes sense.
Dunno. I don't feel like I have a lot to Show for the game so far. Of course this isn't unusual for me either. My percentage lynchig scum is super low.
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woah, night is over! that was quick. question: doesn't innocent child mean that the mod tells us all that shraeye is town? I don't understand...
He has to use the power, and tell the mod to confirm him. He didn't do that. Which is a shame. But he never got to l-1. We are lucky both scums shot him though.
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I was actually about to vote for ashersky. The fact that he just voted for me makes it seem a little omgus, but I don't care.
Yesterday he was jumping all over the place with his accusations, and the moment the tiniest bit of heat gets on him he tries to start a wagon on me?
Scrutinize all you want. I have nothing to hide. I will go ahead and vote: ashersky.
I won't be on much tonight - I want to take a nap before the Gatecrash prerelease. I hate playing Magic with a foggy brain.
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that's a pretty cool role! so he's virtually lynch-proof...
going to re-read shraeye now.
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I feel like waving some of my reads. Munch specifically. With shraeye being town, I don't think it's fair to munch that I keep to the evidence that points to him next. I've just been very wrong.
+1
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While I being open minded... What about Dsell? If not for that one thing, he would be playing a pretty classic lurker scum game. Does the station thing still count for that much?
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ScumDsell is not lurker scum. With that said, I am not going to fall behind in this game again.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
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While I being open minded... What about Dsell? If not for that one thing, he would be playing a pretty classic lurker scum game. Does the station thing still count for that much?
Why would the initial station thing no longer count for anything?
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ScumDsell is not lurker scum. With that said, I am not going to fall behind in this game again.
I believe you are town. Unless I missed something the early post on Eevee would be a very risky play if you are scum. At this point I'm willing to bet the game on you being town in favor of some hunting but I dont like that its felt like you have been participating very little. I feel like you are alive because both scum teams would rather try to shoot scum than they would like to shoot someone everyone thinks is town (the alternative being you are scum so your team doesn't shoot you and the other team is shooting for scum).
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I'm fine with you being lynched as well.
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While I being open minded... What about Dsell? If not for that one thing, he would be playing a pretty classic lurker scum game. Does the station thing still count for that much?
Why would the initial station thing no longer count for anything?
It still counts! I just don't know--I genuinely don't know--if we were correct to consider it all acquitting.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I'm fine with you being lynched as well.
Munch, when I flip station, what will your excuse be, having reached China?
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I hate this mindset if you are town. We really, REALLY can't afford to be mislynching here. And simply being on your wagon will not get them enough scrutiny. I realize (if you are actually town) that you want everyone to know that you are town and can be trusted, but lynching you as town is not the best way for that to happen. Scumhunt, make cases, prove your towniness some other way. This post is hypocritical because I've hardly made cases or contributed to lynches, but so be it.
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ScumDsell is not lurker scum. With that said, I am not going to fall behind in this game again.
I believe you are town. Unless I missed something the early post on Eevee would be a very risky play if you are scum. At this point I'm willing to bet the game on you being town in favor of some hunting but I dont like that its felt like you have been participating very little. I feel like you are alive because both scum teams would rather try to shoot scum than they would like to shoot someone everyone thinks is town (the alternative being you are scum so your team doesn't shoot you and the other team is shooting for scum).
I mean, it's true that I don't want scum to shoot me. But that's a lousy excuse for not participating. And in fact, it's not my excuse: my excuse is that this game has been big and fast moving and RL has afforded me less time to be on the forums, so when I get here I'm tired and I just have to try to catch up. But the game is getting smaller and reads are getting better, etc. So I will do better.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I hate this mindset if you are town. We really, REALLY can't afford to be mislynching here. And simply being on your wagon will not get them enough scrutiny. I realize (if you are actually town) that you want everyone to know that you are town and can be trusted, but lynching you as town is not the best way for that to happen. Scumhunt, make cases, prove your towniness some other way. This post is hypocritical because I've hardly made cases or contributed to lynches, but so be it.
The Glooble case is good. Lurked often, active when called out, sheeping votes left and right, no clear opinions except on me, the easy mislynch. Pretty classic scum to me. That's why I am voting him.
Can we afford a mislynch? Not really. If it is going to be someone, might as well be me, given not everyone who wants me dead can be scum, so getting them back on track and our of this deeply dug ashersky tunnel is good for town.
Like Munch, could be town, could be useful. Currently is not, at all, due to focusing ONLY on me. By agreeing to be lynched at some point today, I am hoping maybe he'll look elsewhere for "other" scum.
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I do think the case against Glooble is better than the case against ashersky.
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so re-reading shraeye didn't do me much. I didn't read his D1 because I know he was all cuzz, and any other reads he had then were probably outdated. He didn't have any strong reads in D2... actually I don't think very may people did.
I've read Dsell's post over and over again and looked at the opening couple posts by joth trying to find a way that Dsell could be scum... but there isn't anything.
10 people left. four people, (munch, Dsell, mcmc, and myself) I have very good solid evidence to believe are town. that leaves six others, probably 3 of which are scum. At this point we really need to lynch scum, preferably wiping out a scum team.
Nobody has really analyzed theorel. I guess that's because he's really hard to get a read on. his posts are very helpful and his lynch would not be very informative.
Everyone seems to think robz is towny, and I'm starting to think so too. His claim was very pro-town, unless mcmc is his scummate, which seems unlikely.
that leaves Yuma, glooble, ash, and jimm. I'd like to lynch one of these four today.
PPE: 11 (I left this and just now finished it)
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I do think the case against Glooble is better than the case against ashersky.
I don't like the one or the other mentality. I just feel like it's really, really hard to distinguish between scumGlooble and townGlooble and we're not yet at the point where we can lynch those who aren't scummy but aren't super townie either. You know what I mean? Like at the end of your game, nobody was scummy (except ftl who was semi-scummily lurking) so we just started lynching people with the least town cred. We're not to that point yet here.
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I do think the case against Glooble is better than the case against ashersky.
I don't like the one or the other mentality. I just feel like it's really, really hard to distinguish between scumGlooble and townGlooble and we're not yet at the point where we can lynch those who aren't scummy but aren't super townie either. You know what I mean? Like at the end of your game, nobody was scummy (except ftl who was semi-scummily lurking) so we just started lynching people with the least town cred. We're not to that point yet here.
I think mcmcsalot is the scummiest seeming of those remaining. Munch seems scummy, but his actions are town!munch to a T.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I hate this mindset if you are town. We really, REALLY can't afford to be mislynching here. And simply being on your wagon will not get them enough scrutiny. I realize (if you are actually town) that you want everyone to know that you are town and can be trusted, but lynching you as town is not the best way for that to happen. Scumhunt, make cases, prove your towniness some other way. This post is hypocritical because I've hardly made cases or contributed to lynches, but so be it.
Agreed. If you are town ash you should do whatever you can to get us to not lynch you. even if your lynch is informative we could be at a point tomorrow where we have 3 scum, 4 town, and 2 teams. Odds for town are pretty slim at that point.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I hate this mindset if you are town. We really, REALLY can't afford to be mislynching here. And simply being on your wagon will not get them enough scrutiny. I realize (if you are actually town) that you want everyone to know that you are town and can be trusted, but lynching you as town is not the best way for that to happen. Scumhunt, make cases, prove your towniness some other way. This post is hypocritical because I've hardly made cases or contributed to lynches, but so be it.
Agreed. If you are town ash you should do whatever you can to get us to not lynch you. even if your lynch is informative we could be at a point tomorrow where we have 3 scum, 4 town, and 2 teams. Odds for town are pretty slim at that point.
Other than giving my reads and opinions, and possibly claiming, what can I do?
I think theo is 33% townier than yesterday. Robz remains town to me. Dsell reads townier today, but that's probably just being more active. Lio as well is townier.
Glooble and mcmcsalot are our best chances at hitting scum.
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You didn't mention Yuma.
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Well, you could stop asking us to lynch you for one...
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Robz still feels a little townie to me, but...hmm...I'm starting to get suspicious of that behavior given his recent display of that behavior as scum (ZMX was it?). Someone who was town in that game, does this feel similar to you? (I just got it in passing as I skimmed the thread).
I wasn't in the game, but had a mod perspective, but this and Robz's post about how he has had really bad reads jumped out to me because of this quote from that game's mod QT with our mod jotheonah
Just be your town self. Let's play this like its M-XII or M-XVI, if we were secretly scum in those games. We're just two town guys, having fun, mislynching across the board. Our reads are so bad! Etc etc.
Robz is just a guy, having fun, mislynching across the board. His reads are so bad! But is he secretly scum?
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Is no one else confused about shraeye being an IC?
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You didn't mention Yuma.
Towny.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I am not fine with you being lynched tomorrow if you are town... and I think you are town, so I am not fine with it... You shouldn't be either...
But I am happy that someone else is finally acknowledging Glooble. I am much more in support of his lynch over ashersky or lio (who I reread yesterday and did not find to be exceptionally scummy at all!)
vote: Glooble
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Ash, how do you square your belief that mcmc is scum with your belief we have a sk? They are mildly contradictory. I know mcmc didn't shoot on night 1, and I really doubt gal would shoot instead of mc if they were on the same team. Either they had a third, or mcmc would be a different scum. But you think there is a serial killer. Mcmc car be the serial killer; he didn't shoot night 1.
Obviously there are possible weird explanations like ninja or something.
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Is no one else confused about shraeye being an IC?
Probably by request, and he didn't request.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I'm fine with you being lynched as well.
Munch, when I flip station, what will your excuse be, having reached China?
ummmm... we are on a space station... if you tunnel really hard on a space station you dont' end up in China... you end up dead, potentially with your eyeballs being sucked out of their sockets and your brain exploding...
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Ash, how do you square your belief that mcmc is scum with your belief we have a sk? They are mildly contradictory. I know mcmc didn't shoot on night 1, and I really doubt gal would shoot instead of mc if they were on the same team. Either they had a third, or mcmc would be a different scum. But you think there is a serial killer. Mcmc car be the serial killer; he didn't shoot night 1.
Obviously there are possible weird explanations like ninja or something.
Separate things for me. My scum read on mcmcsalot is independent of me thinking that SK is more likely than maquis.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I'm fine with you being lynched as well.
Munch, when I flip station, what will your excuse be, having reached China?
ummmm... we are on a space station... if you tunnel really hard on a space station you dont' end up in China... you end up dead, potentially with your eyeballs being sucked out of their sockets and your brain exploding...
Given China's economy, I figure the other side of the space station was bought by China.
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Fwiw, I am fine being lynched. I think it helps town. Those pushing to kill me: munch, mcmcsalot, Glooble, need extra scrutiny tomorrow.
I defer to Robz, Yuma, and theo on when my lynch should happen, and if they need my vote. Until then, I will leave it on Glooble.
I hate this mindset if you are town. We really, REALLY can't afford to be mislynching here. And simply being on your wagon will not get them enough scrutiny. I realize (if you are actually town) that you want everyone to know that you are town and can be trusted, but lynching you as town is not the best way for that to happen. Scumhunt, make cases, prove your towniness some other way. This post is hypocritical because I've hardly made cases or contributed to lynches, but so be it.
The Glooble case is good. Lurked often, active when called out, sheeping votes left and right, no clear opinions except on me, the easy mislynch. Pretty classic scum to me. That's why I am voting him.
The bolded part is actually one part of the glooble case that I disagree with, despite my vote on him... When called out for lurking he did not appreciably increase his posting, in fact it may have decreased.... Although I don't think some people gave him a large enough opportunity to display this typical scumtrait because they unvoted him after 2 posts and took all the pressure off. However, I can't blame him for that...
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request replacement
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request replacement
WHAT!?
also drunk ama
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Has to do with situation outside this game...I'm sorry for it, and hope ashersky reconsiders.
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The problem is that I've allowed the speccy to run rampant with setup info and anyone who has that link is too tainted to replace in probably. My own fault.
If anyone who has been following but isn't in the speccy is willing to replace in, please PM me.
I feel like Jorbles might fit this description.
Also, I know i owe you guys a vote count. Soon.
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74 pages in...unfair to a replacement and to everyone else in the game...I will stay. Especially unfair to Joth, who's put together an amazing game.
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Has to do with situation outside this game...I'm sorry for it, and hope ashersky reconsiders.
Forget it. Agree to move on? I overreacted, too, probably.
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Oh well that's a relief.
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No flavor, slightly drunk.
Vote Count 3.1
ashersky (3): TheMunch, mcmcsalot, Glooble
Glooble (2): ashersky, yuma
Not Voting (5): Robz888, theorel, Dsell, liopoil, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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Jimmmmm has been suspiciously lurky.
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Jimmmmm has been suspiciously lurky.
Agreed, I think the day to day post counts will begin to be effective at finding players lurking progressively as game goes on, I'm out for the night but if someone wants to do a post count I'll throw some analysis on it in the morning.
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Jimmmmm has been suspiciously lurky.
I don't think it is fair to describe someone as lurky when day3 is only ~12 hours old. There are certainly plenty of times when I am not around and posting for 12+ hours... Unless you mean that he has been lurky for a while, into day2, which I hadn't really noticed but a post count could clarify. And I agree with mcmc that a comparative breakdown of posts by day would be useful, but I would suggest holding off until a few more RL days have passed before trying to utilize such a method. Otherwise the results will be tainted by a smaller sample size and the weekend... Performing such a count done tomorrow I think may be premature.
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Jimmmmm has been suspiciously lurky.
I don't think it is fair to describe someone as lurky when day3 is only ~12 hours old. There are certainly plenty of times when I am not around and posting for 12+ hours... Unless you mean that he has been lurky for a while, into day2, which I hadn't really noticed but a post count could clarify. And I agree with mcmc that a comparative breakdown of posts by day would be useful, but I would suggest holding off until a few more RL days have passed before trying to utilize such a method. Otherwise the results will be tainted by a smaller sample size and the weekend... Performing such a count done tomorrow I think may be premature.
agreed, there's usually a few pages of stuff analyze made after I go to bed anyway, however its sad I think most people post much less on weekends whereas my schedule permits me the opposite.
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Jimmmmm has been suspiciously lurky.
I don't think it is fair to describe someone as lurky when day3 is only ~12 hours old. There are certainly plenty of times when I am not around and posting for 12+ hours... Unless you mean that he has been lurky for a while, into day2, which I hadn't really noticed but a post count could clarify. And I agree with mcmc that a comparative breakdown of posts by day would be useful, but I would suggest holding off until a few more RL days have passed before trying to utilize such a method. Otherwise the results will be tainted by a smaller sample size and the weekend... Performing such a count done tomorrow I think may be premature.
I meant more that I forgot he was even in this game.
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Okay, I think I'm going to have to reset a bit on this game. shraeye was Town, okay. I guess him being an on-request IC kind of explains how he played to some extent. I think ICs might tend to read scummy to anyone who didn't know they were an IC. I'm not quite sure why both scumteams targeted him. Maybe they both thought he was scum, but he seems like someone who was likely to be lynched soon, so I don't know.
Next task is to re-read Glooble and lio.
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A thought I just had: is it worth remembering that scum have less scum targets? So, from scum's point of view, Cuzz was less likely to be scum than he was from Town point of view? Does this mean scum would be less likely to push hard for a particular lynch, because they're less likely to get Town cred from hitting scum?
The first part of this confuses me. I think you mean, assuming X number of scum in the game, while town can scum hunt for X players, scum can only scum hunt for X-their own scum team, so they actually have a harder time numbers-wise to catch scum. It's is true that they have less scum to hunt for, but they are hunting from a smaller pool, since they can discount partners, so it probably doesn't affect them as much as you think.
As for not pushing hard on a lynch because they won't get as much town cred, wouldn't that apply the same for town players? I don't think it's a factor--I think scum wants to lynch the other team just as much as town, and won't dial it back because they won't get enough pats on the back.
Oh, just saw this. I meant they're less likely to hit scum than Town is (because they're only going for one scum team instead of two). So if scum pushes hard for a lynch of someone who they think is scummy, they're more likely to hit Town and thus more likely to fall under suspicion for leading a mislynch. I don't know if there's much to this, just something that I realised.
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I get the case on Glooble, and I think it has merit, especially considering we've been lynching more vocal players, and they end up being Town. Glooble has played a fairly "safe" game, although has started contributing more reads. I guess I would put Glooble down as slightly scummy for now, and keep my eye on him.
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so we have two lynch wagons to take a look at, well kinda three (four even) with shraeye dead. Here they are for some good old fashion wagon analysis:
Cuzz (8): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Eevee (7): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
shraeye day 1 quick-wagon: (6) Jimmmm, Eevee, yuma, ashersky, Robz888, Cuzz
shraeye day 2 wagon (4): ashersky, Robz888, theorel, Jimmmmm
On 0 wagons: Dsell
On 1 wagon: Glooble, theorel, mcmcsalot
On 2 wagons: yuma, TheMunch, liopoil, Jimmmm,
On 3 wagons: no one.
On 4 wagons: Robz888, ashersky
So some good stuff here I think.
I still maintain that it is highly likely that there is at least one scum, if not more on the Cuzz wagon, especially with shraeye's death. First reaction makes me suspicious of robz and ash since they were on all 4, but I dont' know... in past games scum just isn't on every wagon... and besides when we look at actual lynch wagons we need to include themunch and lio on this as well as Robz and ash as being on all 4 lynch wagons.
I am going to just be honest here. I really, really don't like Dsell not being on any wagon. Has Dsell voted for anyone this game? NO! He hasn't placed a single vote all game! All three days! No vote! No wonder he wasn't on a wagon... Dsell had you noticed that you hadn't cast a single vote all game? I'll be honest. I really want to vote Dsell over this. Getting towncred early, staying out of the limelight, not joining any wagon that might end up making him more suspicious... and no one seemed to notice until now when I thought some wagon analysis might be a good idea. Ug....
Well, I will have to think more about that.... But beyond that I think there is likely scum 1. within the Cuzz wagon (Glooble, ash, Robz, TheMunch, lio); and 2. people on only 1 wagon (mcmc, theorel, Glooble), although here theorel could be considered to be on the 1shraeye wagon and being willing to hammer eevee. and look at that Glooble is on both.
I also find Jimmm and theorel (with the same caveat as above) a bit suspicious for not being on either lynch wagon--he was only on the shraeye wagon twice--kinda reminds me of me playing scum in MXIV...
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Yuma, I got a lot of crap D1 for not accepting Dsell's town cred fully, if you recall. I cast suspicion on him for the lurking, but everyone wrote it off.
Your wagon analysis puts him in scum territory, I believe.
Glooble fits your analysis, as well, and I think is a good lynch.
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very good post Yuma. Town points to you.
Vote: Dsell
I don't want to lynch him. However I want him to give reads on people. maybe even *gasp* vote. jimmmm, glooble, or ash I still think have a better chance of flipping scum.
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I've actually given reads...
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But to remind people, scum read on Munch, town read on Robz, Theorel, Jimmm, and yuma. Someone (perhaps shraeye) made a pretty decent case on Mcmc yesterday. Pretty neutral on liopoil, very slight town on ashersky.
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And I'm also very slight town on Glooble, while acknowledging that he is dangerous as scum. Very possibly scum. But not one that I want to lynch now.
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Okay, I've done some rereading.
So, for starters, shraeye posted a summary read of everyone before he found out that Robz had tracked mcmcsalot. Once he found that out, he unvoted mcmcsalot and said that it seemed reasonable to make him townier for it. He also reread Eevee and found him scummier than expected. Eevee is dead and town, so that doesn't really impact things. Based on those two things, here's a *modified* read-list from shraeye before end-of-day yesterday.
scummy:
liopoil
Glooble
yuma
Dsell
mcmcsalot
neutralish:
Jimmmmm
Munch
theorel
Towny:
Robz
ashersky
Basically I dropped mcmcsalot from top of scummy category to bottom. I'm not sure if that's exactly accurate, but there it is.
Now, there's lots of reasons for shraeye to be killed, but a big reason is because he found scum scummy. Both teams killed him, so I think this was almost certainly happening somewhere. Besides, these were the reads of a known town-player, which makes them valuable.
I had looked back at this before making my read-list earlier today, and it motivated my finding liopoil guiltier, and was part of my reason for wanting to reread Glooble.
I reread Glooble, and the end result was that I found him townier, especially because of how he had defended shraeye.
I've reread liopoil, and he "sounds" townie to me also, this is vaguer than the reason on Glooble.
However, I also felt like there was some buddying from liopoil towards Glooble (didn't notice it the other way). Here are a couple posts that stood out...here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg169285#msg169285) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg174394#msg174394). But on reread I may have read too much into this, as there were only a couple other interactions which seemed less buddying on reread. But, it did stand out as odd to me, especially because for a lot of that, most the rest of his attention seemed focused on Jimmmmm's claim-thing. I mean he has the one post of an everyone-read, but other than that he's casting suspicions on Jimmmmm and buddying Glooble.
Based on that alone, I'd rather lynch liopoil. But I need to look back at a couple other things also: who voted for liopoil yesterday? Who has expressed interest in lynching Glooble today? Those are important things to be considered in all of this. For now, I'm going to Vote: liopoil and see where things go.
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To answer theorel I was very ready to lynch liopoil yesterday, and I have supported an ashersky lynch for quite some time now. I still think these are both good candidates. I will have to reread some of glooble to see if I find him scummy or not, the fact that I have to say that(I can't recall much of what he has done all game) makes me find him possibly scumming.
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However, I also felt like there was some buddying from liopoil towards Glooble (didn't notice it the other way). Here are a couple posts that stood out...here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg169285#msg169285) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg174394#msg174394). But on reread I may have read too much into this, as there were only a couple other interactions which seemed less buddying on reread. But, it did stand out as odd to me, especially because for a lot of that, most the rest of his attention seemed focused on Jimmmmm's claim-thing. I mean he has the one post of an everyone-read, but other than that he's casting suspicions on Jimmmmm and buddying Glooble.
Based on that alone, I'd rather lynch liopoil. But I need to look back at a couple other things also: who voted for liopoil yesterday? Who has expressed interest in lynching Glooble today? Those are important things to be considered in all of this. For now, I'm going to Vote: liopoil and see where things go.
I hadn't noticed those posts in regard to Glooble, or perhaps I noticed them because I remembered them but didn't see their significance... and to be honest I still kinda don't. I think that part of this is that I have a pretty strong scum read on Glooble, whereas you have a town read on Glooble. And for that reason I find it hard--although I do need to remember that there is more than one scum team--to see a player buddying up to scum. Normally it is a scum buddying up to town.
I would also say that he has had some "buddying" like posts with other players as well... He really liked shraeye's analysis. He just gave me townie points a few posts up, he and themunch are apparently like this.... (imagine two of my fingers crossed together)... and I am sure there are more out there... so I am not sure what your point is with Glooble specifically. Lio seems like he likes to compliment other players for their work and their reads. Maybe this is scummy, but it is kinda hard to tell w/o meta analysis.
My previous read on lio (from late day2) changed a gut scum read into a non-scum read. I still lean toward town on him.
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I haven't really been doing it intentionally... I just appreciate long posts and such as they help me get a better grasp on the game and form reads... I gave Yuma town points for the last one because it was analyzing wagons which seems a more pro-town thing to do than posting long things about one person. This is because wagons would often portray yourself or your team mate(s) in a negative light, as opposed to when you post reads you can put everyone in whatever light you wish.
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woah, been silent for a while here. almost 8 hours! bump...
Vote count please maybe that will start some discussion....
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Replacements for the deceased come on the morning transport. Luckily other people seem to have done all these jobs before: Li Nalas is taking over for Kira, Michael Eddington coming in for Odo, and as for the vacant chief medical officer spot, Starfleet is a little unsympathetic: "Just use the EMH" is the memo.
Vote Count 3.2
ashersky (3): TheMunch, mcmcsalot, Glooble
Glooble (2): ashersky, yuma
Dsell (1): liopoil
liopoil (1): theorel
Not Voting (3): Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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Unvote. Dsell responded.
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woah, been silent for a while here. almost 8 hours! bump...
Vote count please maybe that will start some discussion....
yes, but not horribly quiet, just a bit of a lull... kinda therapeutic I hope...
I am kinda waiting for people to finish up rereads on Glooble... There are a couple that are supposedly in progress or waiting to be done.
So let's set a soft deadline again? I'll be honest, yesterday's deadline snuck up on me. It shouldn't have, but it did and it made everything else kinda messy... Eevee being unable to claim or provide reads before dying... So soft deadline suggestions? Maybe like the wednesday before the deadline, the 6th?
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Unvote. Dsell responded.
yes, but still no vote
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So just did my reread of glooble, early game he postponed giving reads over and over again, even said he was going to give reads on everyone but didn't want to half ass it. This never happened, now I know I started a post on everyone once and didn't finish it but he posted on noone. Later he had scum reads on ash and liopoil which I supports so I honestly don't know what to think. I support the ash and liopoil lynch over a glooble lynch but he has been lurking along with not helping town at all. I see yuma's argument for a scum!glooble partner with galz, so overall I would support a glooble lynch.
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Okay, back for being gone this weekend.
It seems like we are mainly looking at Glooble and liopoil? These are both lynches I could support, though I too should do some re-reading.
Glooble's emotional response to me calling him out on Day 1 read very, very townie to me, which has always made me unwilling to lynch him. But I could have been wrong, and have been wrong about a number of people. Glooble's certainly posting his normal amount, which isn't very much, but I think Glooble tends to draw scum more than town. Which is not to say that he's scum here, just that his lurking behavior is almost more a scum thing than a town thing, just because he's scum so much. I particularly remember lurking Serial Killer Glooble in M-VI.
My issues with liopoil are the same as they have been; he's on the lighter side of posting, and doesn't really have a consistent voice. I seem him as sort of a joiner. But I should re-read.
The only people I'm NOT really looking at at all are ashersky--he's simply town, all this craziness is him being town--and mcmcsalot--due to my Night 1 tracking result.
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soft deadline means we try to lynch someone by a certain point before the deadline? If so then I agree with the 6th.
I thought we were mainly looking at asherky and glooble. :(
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I've been mulling over the possibility of Robz and mcmc being scumbuddies. I think if Robz is Town then mcmc is almost certainly Town as well (equivalently if mcmc is scum Robz is almost certainly scum as well). Of course mcmc could be a Ninja, but otherwise he'd have to be scum without any targeting night actions with a team-mate also without any targeting night actions, which seems very unlikely.
So until I see a reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to assume that if Robz is Town then so is mcmc. This means that any votes on mcmc should be diverted to Robz.
Anyway, the obvious response to this is, why would Robz go to such effort to try to clear mcmc? Isn't that a really risky scum play? Well yes in theory. But in practice the fact that it being risky is the obvious response makes it significantly less risky. We've seen Robz try to give his partner (joth) obvTown status before:
To each of you:
Why is Munch-Joth impossible?
Because Jo isn't scum. I have like absolute faith in my read on him here. I think it's just as likely your episode with Ins yesterday was a scum gambit, Galz, than Joth being scum. Granted, I think there's a 99% chance you are town, and that whole thing was real. So too my town read on Joth. There's no way he plays like this as scum.
So Robz is clearly not above trying to clear his scumbuddy of suspicion. Based on this thought I gave Robz a re-read to look at his interactions with mcmc. He expresses a Town read on mcmc early in day 1, which lasts for most of day 1, and then gradually turns into a slight scum read. He then suddenly has a Town read again in day 2, which is consistent with him basing that off his night action, and is the thing that is most making me think the idea is unlikely. But I do think it's possible. Tracker is a pretty convenient way to clear someone without pretending to be a Cop, which wouldn't even work properly, and 1-shot is a pretty convenient way to avoid being nightkilled. And given that Robz has come under hardly any suspicion all game (which is actually a little suspicious in itself - this is Robz we're talking about), I can definitely see this as something Robz could cook up to save his buddy. Also, them being brothers makes it more likely that people will believe a Town read one has on the other. Is this particularly convincing? I don't think so. But I do think it's something to think about, and I'd like to know what other people think about it.
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@Jimm: My tracking result is genuine, and probably the best evidence I have for it is that the psychology of why I tracked mcmc isn't something that could be faked. I.e., there were actually very few correct tracking targets for me, and Mcmc was definitely the best one.
But that said, I totally see why you would raise this; you are correct that treating my scumbuddy as obvtown has been a recent scum tactic for me that was marvelously successful. I was really surprised that no one else raised this when I claimed, instead of just basically accepting it and moving on.
In fact, there is no one more skeptical of these sorts of claims than I am, and if it was anyone but me, I would have at least suggested lynching one to give certain info on the other (because scum/town is the least likely option here, it's more likely town/town or scum/scum from your perspective). However, I worry that we're at the stage of the game where it's too late to do a purely informational lynch.
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I would agree that the two are likely the same alignment. mcmc being town and robz scum seems like the only plausible way this might not be true. however, Robz would be less likely to claim and clear mcmc in this case. This leaves us with the question, "if we lynch one them, which one should we lynch?". I think it is robz. there are many scenarios:
lynch mcmc, flip town. Gives robz some towncred, but not that much.
lynch mcmc, flip MU. Robz could be the third one, and makes his tracker claim very suspicious
lynch mcmc, flip Maquis. Again, Robz under lots of pressure
lynch mcmc, flip SK. Virtually impossible. Robz must have lied about his role, but why would he?
lynch Robz, flip town. We know mcmc took no night action night one, giving him more town cred than dsell probably.
lynch Robz, flip MU. Why would he claim unless mcmc is his partner?
lynch Robz, flip Maquis. ^^see above.
lynch Robz, flip SK. Virtually impossible. Why would he claim? To save him from getting NKed?
So robz seems like a much more informative lynch, and I think he is a bit more likely to flip scum. However, we know that chances are that neither of them are the SK, which makes them more likely to be town. Robz is probably the most informative lynch we have right now, but right now I don't really have much of a reason to believe that he is scum. I do not think that we should lynch mcmc today unless he does something really scummy.
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also if robz is town it his lynch does not hurt us as much because he is just a VT at this point. Still, robz is right that he must have gotten pretty lucky to get a good tracker target as his partner. And our need to lynch scum is far greater than our need for info.
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I've been mulling over the possibility of Robz and mcmc being scumbuddies. I think if Robz is Town then mcmc is almost certainly Town as well (equivalently if mcmc is scum Robz is almost certainly scum as well). Of course mcmc could be a Ninja, but otherwise he'd have to be scum without any targeting night actions with a team-mate also without any targeting night actions, which seems very unlikely.
So until I see a reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to assume that if Robz is Town then so is mcmc. This means that any votes on mcmc should be diverted to Robz.
Anyway, the obvious response to this is, why would Robz go to such effort to try to clear mcmc? Isn't that a really risky scum play? Well yes in theory. But in practice the fact that it being risky is the obvious response makes it significantly less risky. We've seen Robz try to give his partner (joth) obvTown status before:
To each of you:
Why is Munch-Joth impossible?
Because Jo isn't scum. I have like absolute faith in my read on him here. I think it's just as likely your episode with Ins yesterday was a scum gambit, Galz, than Joth being scum. Granted, I think there's a 99% chance you are town, and that whole thing was real. So too my town read on Joth. There's no way he plays like this as scum.
So Robz is clearly not above trying to clear his scumbuddy of suspicion. Based on this thought I gave Robz a re-read to look at his interactions with mcmc. He expresses a Town read on mcmc early in day 1, which lasts for most of day 1, and then gradually turns into a slight scum read. He then suddenly has a Town read again in day 2, which is consistent with him basing that off his night action, and is the thing that is most making me think the idea is unlikely. But I do think it's possible. Tracker is a pretty convenient way to clear someone without pretending to be a Cop, which wouldn't even work properly, and 1-shot is a pretty convenient way to avoid being nightkilled. And given that Robz has come under hardly any suspicion all game (which is actually a little suspicious in itself - this is Robz we're talking about), I can definitely see this as something Robz could cook up to save his buddy. Also, them being brothers makes it more likely that people will believe a Town read one has on the other. Is this particularly convincing? I don't think so. But I do think it's something to think about, and I'd like to know what other people think about it.
I really like this post.
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To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
This is an interesting post.
Although I have my own reasons for being suspicious of Robz, I also like the validation of someone else coming to the same conclusion. This doesn't preclude the possibility of Jimmm being scum of any kind manipulating Robz play in previous games to generate a scum read on him, but given that the line of reasoning that Jimmm is going down is similar enough to what my mind was already thinking that I'd be on board.
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To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
This is an interesting post.
Although I have my own reasons for being suspicious of Robz, I also like the validation of someone else coming to the same conclusion. This doesn't preclude the possibility of Jimmm being scum of any kind manipulating Robz play in previous games to generate a scum read on him, but given that the line of reasoning that Jimmm is going down is similar enough to what my mind was already thinking that I'd be on board.
What are they?
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I dunno....I'm dubious of Robz faking the tracking result to clear mcmcsalot. I find it more likely that Robz would post a true tracking result in order to gain town credit. I did post similar reasoning earlier today about Robz' buddying tactics, but regarding Robz+ashersky. I find his behavior towards ashersky more suspicious then his tracking result on mcmcsalot. I would say that if we lynched Robz and he flipped scum Tracker that I would be more suspicious of ashersky than mcmcsalot. If he flipped scum not-tracker then I would find it highly unlikely that mcmcsalot is not his partner, because that would be a ridiculously bold fake-claim not knowing ahead-of-time whether or not mcmcsalot actually did something night1.
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The best case scenario for clearing us would have been for either me or Mcmc to die in the night, rather than wasting the lynch on one of us. But I assume the scum secretly agree with that, which is why they haven't.
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I disagree with Jimmm and lio. I don't think mcmc and robz are linked. I actually find it more likely that Robz is a scum-tracker and reported a real investigation of mcmc. His rationale for why he tracked mcmc as town is the same justification a scum tracker would have--because they would want to find someone that used their powers night1, because a cop would use powers night1... So that is why I believe robz's claim to be true and makes mcmc less likely to be scum...
But I think robz as scum and mcmc as town is more likely than both scum. Despite that I think Robz isn't the best place to look today as we have better options, but he is a person to keep an eye on.
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but if robz is scum and mcmc town than why would robz tell us that mcmc didn't take an action? sure he gains a little town-cred, but I don't think that is enough.
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but if robz is scum and mcmc town than why would robz tell us that mcmc didn't take an action? sure he gains a little town-cred, but I don't think that is enough.
well you are giving it to him right now... Look I don't know if Robz is scum or not. But just sitting here I can think of a handful of reason why Robz would day this:
1. he doesn't want to lynch mcmc. Because scum!robz wants to kill the cop for the scum faction that he is apart of. But he knows that mcmc isn't the cop because mcmc didn't use a night action like any good cop would. Therefore he wants the lynch to turn elsewhere with the hopes of forcing a cop to claim--and then be NK--or be lynched.
2. if mcmc is town then Robz gets some town cred for saving a townie from a lynch. (this you have already addressed isn't much)
3. Robz gets credit for just outing himself as a tracker. It is a bold move. Scum isn't often bold, so Robz could get credit that way.
4. It also makes him less likely to be nightkilled, something I am sure that scum!robz would be worried about as scum after seeing what happened to Galz--Robz has been a pretty popular nightkill choice in the past. Outing himself as tracker makes another faction less likely to kill him as that other faction would be gunning for the cop specific to that faction.
5. If mcmc is scum (remember that Robz wouldn't know mcmc's alignment) and is on the other scum faction then Robz, at least in my mind, is less likely to be mcmc's partner in crime making him more townie.
Again I don't know if Robz is scum, I am leaning toward less likely than likely. But the above are some really good reasons for why scum!robz would do what he did. There may be more, those are the ones I just thought of sitting here typing this up. If you only look at point #2, then yes it isn't much, but all together there are potentially compelling reasons.
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I do agree with yuma, and it brings my town read on robz down some though I completely believe an informational lynch is not what we want to today, I think it provides a great out for liopoil, my top scum read, and takes the focus off of our other viable lynches based on scummy play.
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I did not say I want an informational lynch, nor do I support an informational lynch. We need to lynch scum.
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I guess to be fair you didn't say that I did, but you did suggest that it was "an out" for me.
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So robz seems like a much more informative lynch, and I think he is a bit more likely to flip scum. However, we know that chances are that neither of them are the SK, which makes them more likely to be town. Robz is probably the most informative lynch we have right now, but right now I don't really have much of a reason to believe that he is scum. I do not think that we should lynch mcmc today unless he does something really scummy.
I suggested than an informational lynch would be an out for you, a way for mafia to lynch town without many repercussions, because if you lynch either me or robz and we flip town you can just say oh well now we know. You did not say you wanted an informational lynch but the above paragraph confused me a bit.
I may have just read this wrong, do you believe lynching either me or robz is a good idea? In this paragraph you mention twice Robz is the most informative lynch we have, but that you don't have a scum read on him. Then you state you don't want to lynch me unless I do something scummy. So it looks to me like you are putting out null reads and saying we could lynch me or robz for informational purposes.
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So robz seems like a much more informative lynch, and I think he is a bit more likely to flip scum. However, we know that chances are that neither of them are the SK, which makes them more likely to be town. Robz is probably the most informative lynch we have right now, but right now I don't really have much of a reason to believe that he is scum. I do not think that we should lynch mcmc today unless he does something really scummy.
I suggested than an informational lynch would be an out for you, a way for mafia to lynch town without many repercussions, because if you lynch either me or robz and we flip town you can just say oh well now we know. You did not say you wanted an informational lynch but the above paragraph confused me a bit.
I may have just read this wrong, do you believe lynching either me or robz is a good idea? In this paragraph you mention twice Robz is the most informative lynch we have, but that you don't have a scum read on him. Then you state you don't want to lynch me unless I do something scummy. So it looks to me like you are putting out null reads and saying we could lynch me or robz for informational purposes.
Okay, I need to get a bit caught up, but I wanted to mention, on informational lynches:
They can be a good idea D1, but not at this point. That someone's flip will be more information than another person's flip can be a factor in lynching, I think, but shouldn't be the sole reasoning. I don't think liopoil is making that argument, though, in the beginning of his quote, although "most informative lynch we have right now" is not a good statement to be making. That's a bit scummy.
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Replacements for the deceased come on the morning transport. Luckily other people seem to have done all these jobs before: Li Nalas is taking over for Kira, Michael Eddington coming in for Odo, and as for the vacant chief medical officer spot, Starfleet is a little unsympathetic: "Just use the EMH" is the memo.
Vote Count 3.2
ashersky (3): TheMunch, mcmcsalot, Glooble
Glooble (2): ashersky, yuma
Dsell (1): liopoil
liopoil (1): theorel
Not Voting (3): Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
I am still somehow the leading lynch candidate, btw.
So I'm fairly convinced Robz is town, as even boldscumrobz doesn't "blow" his tracker result on clearing mcmc if he's a scum tracker. I just really think he'd use it more wisely, to either clear a teammate in mylo-ish situations, or to frame a townie when it's useful for him. It just didn't serve Robz's interest to claim the way he did. It served town's interests.
I've found mcmc various levels of scummy all game, and that hasn't really gone away. But, honestly, I think that's his meta. Still, I think he's a good lynch today.
I'm also still good with Glooble, liopoil, and Dsell, based on other analysis.
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vote: liopoil this is where my current scum read is strongest.
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Currently I do not want to lynch mcmc or robz, as both of them are townreads to me, and I think there are people who are more likely to flip scum. Jimmmm started talking about them so I added what I had to contribute. If we were going to lynch one of them I was saying it should be robz because we gather more info from his lynch, but that could change if mcmc did something to seem much scummier than robz.
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I've found mcmc various levels of scummy all game, and that hasn't really gone away. But, honestly, I think that's his meta. Still, I think he's a good lynch today.
I too continue to have a scummier read on mcmc based off play, posts, voting, etc..., but Robz's analysis is compelling in that it is nearly impossible that mcmc is the SK and somewhat unlikely that he is partner's with Galz as a MU scum, this isn't as unlikely as him being SK, but still unlikely compared to our other lynch options. This makes him not as strong of a lynch candidate. If, however, down the road it is revealed that we don't have a SK--but instead have the other scumteam--I think mcmc would jump up in terms of being a good lynch. However, at this point we don't know if we have a SK or not. And until we know as such, I don't think mcmc is a good lynch, especially compared to better options.
If we do find a SK that is not mcmc I will find him to be even more likely town than others as that will eliminate the possibility of him being SK. Although I do suppose that if we have a SK then there are likely two partners of Galz out there... increasing the possibility that neither Galz nor Galzpartner!mcmc performed the night kill....
morale: mcmc probably isn't a good lynch option until we better understand the scum dynamics in this game.
One quick thought and potential question: If Robz's had been roleblocked would he have received a different result than a result if mcmc really hadn't targeted anyone? Or would have the two scenarios have resulted in the same result? This potentially opens up a scenario in which mcmc could be the SK and could be further analyzed if someone claims to have blocked Robz at some point down the road.
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One quick thought and potential question: If Robz's had been roleblocked would he have received a different result than a result if mcmc really hadn't targeted anyone? Or would have the two scenarios have resulted in the same result? This potentially opens up a scenario in which mcmc could be the SK and could be further analyzed if someone claims to have blocked Robz at some point down the road.
No, I asked Jo about that. My result makes it clearer that Mcmc didn't target anyone, not that I was roleblocked.
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So I'm fairly convinced Robz is town, as even boldscumrobz doesn't "blow" his tracker result on clearing mcmc if he's a scum tracker. I just really think he'd use it more wisely, to either clear a teammate in mylo-ish situations, or to frame a townie when it's useful for him. It just didn't serve Robz's interest to claim the way he did. It served town's interests.
I've found mcmc various levels of scummy all game, and that hasn't really gone away. But, honestly, I think that's his meta. Still, I think he's a good lynch today.
So do you think mcmc is a Ninja, or are there two Vanilla Goons on one team?
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
Second, if someone has an actual case on me, could that person please state it so that I can try and defend myself? Because so far it looks to me like you're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option, and I don't except that premise. Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday. What's changed?
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I agree with everything glooble just said, I would appreciate the glooble case laid out as I must have missed it somewhere, I honesty have no clue what it is. Also as the day has gone on liopoil is looking like a better lynch than ash to me but yes I do still and have had a scum read on ash.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
I don't understand this. shraeye pushed the case on Cuzz. ashersky's contribution was more along the lines of Galzria's, he claimed a scum-read on Cuzz, and happened to have his vote there. Shraeye pushed for it. Munch pushed for it to end the day. Cuzz kind of hung around and tried to help get everything tidied up at the end of the day.
I mean I could see you saying ashersky is town because of how he jumped all over the place instead of sticking his vote on Cuzz. Or how he kept saying raerae is scummy, and she was NKed. Or because of how he tried to help the lynch go. I don't think you can claim a town-read for how hard he pushed Cuzz' lynch while claiming a scum-read on shraeye yesterday for essentially the same thing.
Do you have a better reason?
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
Second, if someone has an actual case on me, could that person please state it so that I can try and defend myself? Because so far it looks to me like you're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option, and I don't except that premise. Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday. What's changed?
My vote is a carry over from yesterday, where I presented the following case
which at the time I felt was trumped by my read on mcmc, however as I have mentioned Robz reveal about mcmc made that option not as viable so I turned to you. This might be what you are meaning as trying to lynch you because there isn't a better option... If so then this is silly. My top scum reads were you and mcmc, Robz presented a valid reason to not lynch mcmc for now, however, no one has presented a valid reason for you.
But you say that my quote was from yesterday, shouldn't my reads have changed? Yes, they should have and they have. They have made you look more scummy. the wagon analysis I did in this post:
for example.
But to summarize these posts quickly so you actually have something to respond to...
1. lurking (by itself not much, but added together with the rest) so I feel it is more scummy lurking than just lurking by itself
2. a defense of eevee that to me felt ingenuous. I'll try to put together an idea of what I mean by that in a later post.
3. participation on the Cuzz wagon
4. potential relationship with Galz. this post in particular stood out to me. Although I used this argument on Eevee at the end and it didn't work, so I am trying to be cautious with it.
5. the above post that I am responding to. "You're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option"... only ash and I are voting for you at the moment. There are quite a few people who have expressed solid town reads on you--I don't know how, but they do--but this seems like scum being so focused on being suspected that it becomes exaggerated.
6. one of only three players on only 1 of the major wagons that have been created throughout the game. Like I said in the wagon analysis I think it highly likely that at least one of you three is scum.
Combine that with townier reads on both ash and lio and it appears you are the choice target. But remember it just isn't that the other options aren't good. It is that I think you are a good option as well.
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Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
Second, if someone has an actual case on me, could that person please state it so that I can try and defend myself? Because so far it looks to me like you're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option, and I don't except that premise. Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday. What's changed?
Classic deflection in response to pressure. Instead of responding to suspicion (a la yuma's posts), he tries to move interest to the "easy" mislynch. Glooble's actions up to now, including the lurking and especially his interaction with conf!scum Galz makes me think he is surely the best lynch today.
Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
I do think that all the strong town reads on Robz, including my own, are worrisome. We're usually not all so in agreement (or right) about Robz. I don't think he's the lynch today, though. He's still townier than a number of other players, including me to some of you.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
Second, if someone has an actual case on me, could that person please state it so that I can try and defend myself? Because so far it looks to me like you're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option, and I don't except that premise. Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday. What's changed?
Classic deflection in response to pressure. Instead of responding to suspicion (a la yuma's posts), he tries to move interest to the "easy" mislynch. Glooble's actions up to now, including the lurking and especially his interaction with conf!scum Galz makes me think he is surely the best lynch today.
You realize everything you said about my post could be said about this post, right?
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well my beef with glooble is as such:
1. lurking, but didn't change lurking habits after receiving pressure, but pressure wasnt' there very long
2. has a lot of availability posts, but like I said... could be paranoid scum or just a nice guy... has glooble done this in the past, tell us his availability a lot, I haven't played much with him.
3. was on the Cuzz wagon, and heavily agreed with shraeye and defended some of shraeye's points (this isn't necessarily scummy, but I disagreed with the case and the defenses)
4. his post about Galz/shraeye in light of the cuzz flip and the fact that he still has a town read on shraeye despite that.
And I can't remember again what Galz had to say about him... Galz said he would be willing to lynch him, but didn't really have a scum read.
So at this point I have a scummier read on mcmc than on Glooble. All of my thoughts on Glooble seem to have a this was scummy, but.... attached onto it.
1. I lurk in every game. I'm not defending my behavior, but its not good evidence for me being scum.
2. I tell you my availability so I don't get jumped on if I disappear for a day or two. Again, this is indicitive of my real life and has little to know bearing on my alignment.
3. This is true of everyone on the Cuzz wagon, including shraeye himself, who ended up being town. Weak argument.
4. I had a townread on shraeye. Shraeye ended up being town. Why is this still an issue?
Well, I will have to think more about that.... But beyond that I think there is likely scum 1. within the Cuzz wagon (Glooble, ash, Robz, TheMunch, lio); and 2. people on only 1 wagon (mcmc, theorel, Glooble), although here theorel could be considered to be on the 1shraeye wagon and being willing to hammer eevee. and look at that Glooble is on both.
I also find Jimmm and theorel (with the same caveat as above) a bit suspicious for not being on either lynch wagon--he was only on the shraeye wagon twice--kinda reminds me of me playing scum in MXIV...
Why do you think it likely that scum was only on one wagon? But, that aside, I wasn't on the Eevee wagon because it pretty much started and ended while I was offline. I didn't have a chance to be on it or not be on it, so that also tells us nothing about my alignment.
just found this quote from Glooble:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you (this is refering to Cuzz) flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip."
after Cuzz was lynched, but before thread lock and flip...
This is interesting. (because I am more interested in finding Galz's partner, I am paying more attention to the galz part of this, but the fact that Glooble included shraeye in this is interesting)
1. Assuming here that Glooble is scum and on the scum team with Galz.
2. Neither Glooble nor Galz would know what the alignment of Cuzz was--he very well could have been opposing scum.
3. Glooble expresses a town read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum, but a potential scum read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum.
4. This is a win/win for Glooble!partner with Galz. Because if Cuzz is scum, he can now safely have a town read on his partner that won't be especially scrutinized. But if Cuzz is town, he can start a bussread on his partner, again w/o much scrutiny...
So I guess the question is this: would scum!Glooble express a strong town read on his partner? Now I guess he is actually expressing more of a scum read than a town read. Because from scum!Glooble's perspective, Cuzz was more likely to flip town--as scum!Glooble would know that Cuzz wasn't on a scum team with him, so even though he didn't know Cuzz's alignment, he suspected that Cuzz was perhaps more likely to flip town, so his read while potentially strong town was actually more setup to be a scum read...
I think Galzparner!Glooble could write something like this.
Wait, what? this isn't even an argument. I didn't say I "would have a scum read" on anyone - I said I would be slightly more suspicious. And I was. Just not suspicious enough to be willing to lynch shraeye. I don't see the contradiction.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
Second, if someone has an actual case on me, could that person please state it so that I can try and defend myself? Because so far it looks to me like you're all trying to lynch me because you don't have a better option, and I don't except that premise. Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday. What's changed?
Classic deflection in response to pressure. Instead of responding to suspicion (a la yuma's posts), he tries to move interest to the "easy" mislynch. Glooble's actions up to now, including the lurking and especially his interaction with conf!scum Galz makes me think he is surely the best lynch today.
You realize everything you said about my post could be said about this post, right?
Disagree. Your post doesn't accuse me of anything, just asks for a better explanation of other folks' town read on me. Then you say "hey, there's no case on me, you just think there's no better option." So no, different posts.
PPE - looks like you responded to yuma.
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I'll respond to your posts, but I am not super inclined to have a huge back and forth like Day1 saw as those tend to monopolize the discussion and really to me aren't very readable. But I do want to make sure you understand me and that I understand you.
1. Yes, lurking alone isn't enough. I agree, which if that were all, it wouldn't be enough.
2. This was resolved after you later explained your rationale for why you do it. I don't think it is scummy, I think it is polite and shouldn't be considered as part of my current case on you. Previously it was something that I found interesting during my reread of you and wanted to hear more from you about.
3. the Cuzz wagon isn't just the way that you participated, it was the way that you participated. You added little original thought to it. I know this isn't a super great argument because shraeye did put together a pretty large case that left little room for original thought. But it was as if you basically followed shraeye using him as a shield if things went wrong. This is in contrast to others such as ashersky and Robz who did add their own insights into the Cuzz case. I think this is exemplified by your post that I quoted that said you would find--and from this I read that you would expect others to find shraeye scummy if Cuzz turned up scum.
4. Again point 4 was from the point of view when shraeye was still alive and shraeye's alignment wasn't known. But again the issue is what I address in point 3 and will address below.
My thought process behind the one out of three being scum from the group that was only on one wagon is that I think scum often likes to not be on a lot of wagons. They kind of like to vote sparingly, try to stay out of the limelight, avoid wagons... At least in my experience at least one member of scum tends to do that... so you three kinda fit the bill. But you are correct that the eevee wagon started more or less while you were gone... I hadn't realized that. You did express a townread on him shortly before it started... so this analysis is a little more muddled (and I guess you weren't really online during the shraeye quick wagon day1 either...)
As for the last point... I know my quote is convuluted and isn't really clear, I was just thinking out loud. I will try to be more clear here.... What I am thinking behind that post really had more to do with Galz than with shraeye.
Here is the quote again for context:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip.
This was posted after the lynch, but before the flip and I find it an interesting post because if you posted it as scum partners with Galz it is a win/win scenario for you. If Cuzz flips scum, you are totally justified in having a town read on your partner Galz. However, if Cuzz flips town, you are then totally justified in having a scum read on your partner Galz, who is likely to come under some pressure Day2, for some easy, suspicion free, bussing. Again, this isn't so much evidence against you as it is me wanting to make sure that the person I am voting for has a viable chance of being partners with Galz--as I think analyzing him and his interactions with other players presents our best chance at finding scum at this point. I found this post of yours to be a viable post from scum!glooble who is partners with Galz.
And there was a typo in the post below, where it says you had a non-genuine defense of eevee, it should be a non-genuine defense of shraeye. This corresponds to point 3 above.
I understand that while you said you would be more suspicious of shraeye if Cuzz flipped town, that doesn't necessarily mean that you would read him as surefire scum afterward, but you dont' even seem to change your read on him. It was kind of like you picked in the early game which players you would have town reads on and stuck with them the rest of the game.
for example this line in particular stood out to me: The fact is, I'm far from ready to lynch shraeye with the info we have now. It's like, it seems good on paper, but he just reads very town to me. But maybe part of that is that if I admit that his arguments for lynching Cuzz were manipulative, then I'm owning up to how easy I was to manipulate.
is talking more about yourself than shraeye.
I am also going to throw out one more thing I just noticed... the promises to do things, but not doing them. you were going to look at the shraeye, quick wagon, you were going to look at me, you were going to put together a "willing to lynch" list... and so on. I think that tends to be a scum trait. Because putting together that kind of work and reads and making them look real can be really difficult as scum.
That ended up being longer than I wanted, sorry. What do other people think. Does my case hold water? Am I just tunneling. I don't feel like I am.
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Okay, not really sure where to go with this game at this point, so I'll just put down some thoughts.
I think it's most likely that we have 3-5 scum in the game. I guess 6 is possible, but seems unlikely. That means with Galz gone, there are 2-4 scum in {ash, Robz, yuma, Glooble, liopoil, mcmc, theorel, Munch, Dsell}. I think Dsell is probably Town. I also think theorel is probably Town, although I'm less sure about that. I do think that Robz and mcmc are almost definitely on the same team, and at this stage I'm thinking Town. And Robz seems certain that ash is Town. Granted that's a lot of assumptions, but if I go with that then that leaves me with 2-4 scum in {yuma, Glooble, lio, Munch}. Of course, the answer to that is "It can't be that simple". I'm not really sure who from that list I think is scummy. I'll have to look closer at them. In terms of the other list, {ash, Robz, mcmc, theorel, Dsell}, even though I have reason to think each of them is Town, it seems unlikely that they're all Town.
Dsell: yeah he's lurked up a storm, and we do need more input from him. But man, I just don't know if I can see scum pulling off that first post of his, and then follow it up with lurking. I know it'd be good to have a better reason than that, but that's that.
theorel: seems Towny. Has been providing his normal analysis. I will need to have a closer look at him to see what I can find.
Robz/mcmc: I just think that Robz' claim is almost definitely him trying to save someone who he either thinks or knows is on the same team as him. Sure, I guess Robz could be scum and mcmc Town, but that just doesn't seem likely. So I think they're either scum/scum or Town/Town. I'm leaning Town/Town, mostly because I don't see scum Robz drawing that much attention to himself when he'd received so little suspicion prior to that.
ash: I guess I've had a slight Town read on ash for most of the game. The thing with raerae kind of seemed like Town on Town to me, and the way ash has responded to pressure has seemed vaguely Towny. Of course, he could be emotionally manipulating us, I don't know. Robz seems certain that ash is Town, and while they could conceivably be scumbuddies, that seems like it's probably a genuine read.
So I don't know where from these five we're most likely to find scum, but I do think that we're more likely to find scum in the other four, so I'll definitely need to look at them closer.
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I do think that Robz and mcmc are almost definitely on the same team, and at this stage I'm thinking Town. And Robz seems certain that ash is Town.
I don't know how you can be so sure about robz and mcmc being on the same team.... Did you not read my post outlining possible motives--and I think they were darn good ones--for scum!Robz to claim to have tracked, and to have actually tracked, mcmc? Or do you not think those motivations to be valid? You talk a bit about it being unlikely later in your post, but you don't talk about why it is so unlikely.
Now, again I am saying here that I dont' think Robz is the right lynch for today, but I do think that you and others are setting a dangerous precedence. For example your treatment of Robz's reads as confirmed town reads! That is not safe. Yes, both Robz and I have town reads on ash. But my town read on ash is wholly independent from Rob'z townread on ash. So should yours... and I see that you talk about him below a bit.
Treat players as confirmed townies only when they actually become confirmed townies.
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@yuma: that was a good clarification of the case on Glooble from my perspective.
I think to me the essential question is: was the shraeye read genuine or made up?
Because realistically, that's the difference between our positions...I agree with your other points, but I'm basically leaning town on him for his defense of shraeye, while you're leaning scum on him for essentially the same reason. When I look at that "shraeye and Galz are towny but scummier if Cuzz flips town" thing, I agree that it can be read as an excuse to read Galz as townier if Cuzz flips scum. BUT it reads as an excuse to read primarily shraeye (not Galz) as scummier if Cuzz does flip town. I mean, sure it could be an excuse to bus, but let's face it scum isn't generally looking for an "excuse" to bus. His claim that shraeye would look scummy but then NOT finding shraeye scummy seems like such a town thing to do, not a scum thing to do. So, I come to the completely opposite conclusion: Glooble is townier because he stuck by that town-read when he could have gone to a scum-read if he was scum.
Now, maybe he thought that Galzria already flipped scum, so being suspicious of shraeye would be called out, and he figured that shraeye would be lynched anyways without his help, and so he cast suspicion on other players than shraeye/eevee at the end of yesterday. Then he killed shraeye so that it would be apparent that shraeye was town and he could claim the town-cred on it, or just because shraeye suspected him. That seems unlikely to me though.
So, I dunno there.
Then there's Robz. Man that last post reads scum without a real reason for his town-read. I dunno, his mcmc-clearing does suggest town, it's just not entirely compelling. I'm worried that he's intertwined himself with 2 players intentionally as scum to make lylo tricky, even if we lynch him.
Okay, as mentioned earlier, I reread day1 Galzria and concluded that ash/yuma looked like his likeliest scumbuddies. I'm finding it interesting that they've both struck out at Glooble as a likely scum-partner for Galzria. Of course we have the fact that whoever Galzria's partner is he's been NKing other Cuzz-wagoners with raerae and then shraeye. Now, if I discount Glooble as a likely scum-partner with Galzria for this, then I should do the same for ashersky.
yuma has seemed pretty town to me, I've only got any inkling of scumminess based on Galzria's posts day1. I should reread his day1 and see if the interactions are mutual.
So, I dunno. I'd rather lynch Robz now than at lylo, because lylo with Robz is always terrible (he's already laying the groundwork for his suspicion of me). I like the liopoil lynch the best, but not really for anything of my own reads, excepting so many town-reads elsewhere. But if I'm disregarding my own reads, maybe Glooble is a good lynch...shraeye was suspicious of him, and if yuma is also town, then well, I have to acknowledge that his reads are probably better than mine. But if yuma isn't town, then Glooble probably is, and we should be lynching yuma instead (obviously, since I'm supposing he's scum in this sentence).
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but if robz is scum and mcmc town than why would robz tell us that mcmc didn't take an action? sure he gains a little town-cred, but I don't think that is enough.
well you are giving it to him right now... Look I don't know if Robz is scum or not. But just sitting here I can think of a handful of reason why Robz would day this:
1. he doesn't want to lynch mcmc. Because scum!robz wants to kill the cop for the scum faction that he is apart of. But he knows that mcmc isn't the cop because mcmc didn't use a night action like any good cop would. Therefore he wants the lynch to turn elsewhere with the hopes of forcing a cop to claim--and then be NK--or be lynched.
2. if mcmc is town then Robz gets some town cred for saving a townie from a lynch. (this you have already addressed isn't much)
3. Robz gets credit for just outing himself as a tracker. It is a bold move. Scum isn't often bold, so Robz could get credit that way.
4. It also makes him less likely to be nightkilled, something I am sure that scum!robz would be worried about as scum after seeing what happened to Galz--Robz has been a pretty popular nightkill choice in the past. Outing himself as tracker makes another faction less likely to kill him as that other faction would be gunning for the cop specific to that faction.
5. If mcmc is scum (remember that Robz wouldn't know mcmc's alignment) and is on the other scum faction then Robz, at least in my mind, is less likely to be mcmc's partner in crime making him more townie.
Again I don't know if Robz is scum, I am leaning toward less likely than likely. But the above are some really good reasons for why scum!robz would do what he did. There may be more, those are the ones I just thought of sitting here typing this up. If you only look at point #2, then yes it isn't much, but all together there are potentially compelling reasons.
Okay, found your reasons. 1 and 2 don't seem worth scum Robz putting the spotlight on himself. 3 maybe, I'm not sure. 4 could be something I guess. I can understand scum wanting to try to balance not getting lynched and not getting NKed. 5 I don't think so: I can definitely see scum Robz doing this to his partner.
I think the main thing that Robz claim did was make mcmc less likely to be lynched and Robz more likely. And surely for scum Robz, the difference between lynching mcmc and lynching Robz or a teammate of Robz' is far greater than the difference between lynching the Robz' team Cop and lynching mcmc. So I'll admit that it's possible they're on different teams, but I'd say it's unlikely.
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Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
Ridiculous. I have repeatedly asked you why you are suspicious of me--you keep alluding to evidence without actually presenting it, and I keep asking you to be explicit, and you keep ignoring me.
Other people are raising issues about me that I think have merit. I don't know what you're doing.
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Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
I don't understand this. shraeye pushed the case on Cuzz. ashersky's contribution was more along the lines of Galzria's, he claimed a scum-read on Cuzz, and happened to have his vote there. Shraeye pushed for it. Munch pushed for it to end the day. Cuzz kind of hung around and tried to help get everything tidied up at the end of the day.
I mean I could see you saying ashersky is town because of how he jumped all over the place instead of sticking his vote on Cuzz. Or how he kept saying raerae is scummy, and she was NKed. Or because of how he tried to help the lynch go. I don't think you can claim a town-read for how hard he pushed Cuzz' lynch while claiming a scum-read on shraeye yesterday for essentially the same thing.
Do you have a better reason?
Shraeye's certainty was built on a case he concocted, though. Ashersky was just nuts. He had absolutely zero fear of being the hammer. It reminded me more of myself in M-XVI, when I wanted to lynch shraeye Day 1 because the day was waay too long, and I didn't really care how it looked that I just kept saying over and over again "lynch shraeye, lynch shraeye," because I know it made me suspicious, but whatever, I would just deal with it. Scum doesn't put themselves in that situation.
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I don't know, maybe my town read on Ash is more meta than anything else. And my reads have not been good this game. But I really, really don't think scum!Ashersky plays this way, because playing this way was likely to get him lynched.
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@Robz: thanks, that's much clearer.
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Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
Ridiculous. I have repeatedly asked you why you are suspicious of me--you keep alluding to evidence without actually presenting it, and I keep asking you to be explicit, and you keep ignoring me.
Other people are raising issues about me that I think have merit. I don't know what you're doing.
I haven't had that much time to invest in this game at the moment but I thought context clues and posts I've been quoting were enough to express my desire for the vote.
I'll go back and put something short together that at least formally sums up my feelings about Robz right now. Hold please.
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Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
Ridiculous. I have repeatedly asked you why you are suspicious of me--you keep alluding to evidence without actually presenting it, and I keep asking you to be explicit, and you keep ignoring me.
Other people are raising issues about me that I think have merit. I don't know what you're doing.
I haven't had that much time to invest in this game at the moment but I thought context clues and posts I've been quoting were enough to express my desire for the vote.
I'll go back and put something short together that at least formally sums up my feelings about Robz right now. Hold please.
You've been implying without stating your case against me all day. You doing this is especially egregious, since Jimm and theorel have put together fairly substantive, well-founded cases regarding my play and opinions.
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Here's what I'm talking about, Munch:
To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
This is an interesting post.
Although I have my own reasons for being suspicious of Robz, I also like the validation of someone else coming to the same conclusion. This doesn't preclude the possibility of Jimmm being scum of any kind manipulating Robz play in previous games to generate a scum read on him, but given that the line of reasoning that Jimmm is going down is similar enough to what my mind was already thinking that I'd be on board.
What are they?
You never explained why you thought my post was interesting, or what your "own reasons" were. Makes me think you didn't have any, and were just waiting around for other players to come up with some.
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To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
I requoted this post when I expressed my scum read on Robz following the post by Jimmm:
So regarding the first quote, this just sets off a bunch of bells and whistles for me. The "wrong, day after day after day" is a mentality that I often try to convey as scum. Clearly scum wants to push through bad lynches, and obviously this is multiball etc and Robz isn't me so it is far from enough evidence to call him for sure scum. But its enough to say "this is interesting" which I did say at the time.
Then Jimmm made his post. The thing that I liked about the post isn't specifically the fact that Robz is expressing a town read on Mcmc (which was Jimmm's point) but the fact that Robz is not afraid to plop very strong town reads on his buddies. I have scum reads on Ashersky and Mcmc, although I dont know if I think just one or both is scum, I'm just not sure. But the line of reasoning of "this is something that scum!Robz is capable of doing" is something that hits home for me. Again, not enough, cause I am not sure if Robz is so bold to "waste" or claim to use his tracker on his buddy if that is truly what is going on there but another thing that makes me suspicious.
Then Robz made this post:
Wow this thread is dead.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?" Because I think his day two was scummy as hell. He was jumping all over the place trying to get anyone but himself lynched. I provided quotes in my post yesterday demonstrating that he literally cast suspicion on half the town.
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
This is really the final post that turns my scum suspicion on robz into a full blown will-lynch. Robz has now expressed a strong town read on my two top scum reads. Theorel posted what I was thinking regarding why specifically singling out Ashersky for his participation on the Cuzz lynch is strange. So thats why I am willing to lynch him. The read on Ashersky is so out of place. I dont think anyone that has played as much as Robz has should ever "expect more rational subtle play from scum Ashersky". I dont expect rational subtle anything from anything!Ashersky.
Since then Robz has responded to this with:
I don't know, maybe my town read on Ash is more meta than anything else. And my reads have not been good this game. But I really, really don't think scum!Ashersky plays this way, because playing this way was likely to get him lynched.
This doesn't really make much sense to me. How can Robz say that his reads have been not so good and then fervently cling to the notion that his meta reads actually work? (my answer: because his read on Ashersky isn't genuine)
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You never explained why you thought my post was interesting, or what your "own reasons" were. Makes me think you didn't have any, and were just waiting around for other players to come up with some.
I am sorry for not having a ton of time. The fact that I didn't have time to post long posts is the reason why I made short comments and said that I agreed with people when it came up so that when I did get aroudn to me making a case I at least of some record of when I agreed with things instead of retroactively claiming I agreed with it.
I have been mislynched before for "agreeing with someone too much" though so take that for what you will.
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treating my scumbuddy as obvtown has been a recent scum tactic for me that was marvelously successful.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?"
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
The only people I'm NOT really looking at at all are ashersky--he's simply town, all this craziness is him being town
These are just a couple of the cases where robz has voiced a very strong townread on ash, someone who most other people I believe find at least a little sketchy. could be doing the "treat partner as obvtown" thing again. This is especially interesting because of the whole mcmc thing. ash and mcmc can't BOTH be robz's partner if robz is scum.
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
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treating my scumbuddy as obvtown has been a recent scum tactic for me that was marvelously successful.
I have some requests. First, Robz, could I have a more concrete reason why you have a strong townread on ashersky besides "he just crazy like that?"
I think he's played way to dangerously to be scum. He has been so over-the-top, he has drummed up insane suspicion on himself. I have been convinced of his towniness since the Cuzz lynch. I don't think scum can afford to push that lynch through so hard. I would just expect more rational, subtle play from scum Ashersky.
The only people I'm NOT really looking at at all are ashersky--he's simply town, all this craziness is him being town
These are just a couple of the cases where robz has voiced a very strong townread on ash, someone who most other people I believe find at least a little sketchy. could be doing the "treat partner as obvtown" thing again. This is especially interesting because of the whole mcmc thing. ash and mcmc can't BOTH be robz's partner if robz is scum.
This was the reason why I was able to jump between "eh scummy" and actually putting a vote on him. If I think there is a good chance at all that at least one of Ash and Mcmc is Robz partner, then it doesn't actually matter if I'm right about either specifically, the strong town reads which I believe are incredibly undeserved throw up enough flags that I am comfortable enough making him the lynch candidate for today.
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
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Yuma, while I still think it is unlikely that robz is scum and mcmc town, your post makes me recognize it is a real possibility now. Vote: Robz888.
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I don't know why the fact that YOU try the "wrong, day after day" as scum plan makes ME scum. It's frequently joked that I am a horrible town player, constantly reading people wrong. This has happened in many games, M-XVI being the best and most recent example. I think I only cast a single vote for scum at one point (Cuzz), and never lynched a scum,and never even had a scumread on a scum, despite surviving 3 rounds of play.
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
These are not good reasons to vote for me. If you are pretty sure one of Mcmc/ash is scum, you should probably vote for one of those people. Especially if me being scum relies on one of them being my partner, in your view.
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
These are not good reasons to vote for me. If you are pretty sure one of Mcmc/ash is scum, you should probably vote for one of those people. Especially if me being scum relies on one of them being my partner, in your view.
I have voted for both of them in the past. Fortunately I dont need to be write about both of them for my case on you to hold up. I just need to be right about both of them. Are you saying we should lynch both Ash and Mcmc (potentially both town) in order to clear your name in just my eyes?
I don't know why the fact that YOU try the "wrong, day after day" as scum plan makes ME scum. It's frequently joked that I am a horrible town player, constantly reading people wrong. This has happened in many games, M-XVI being the best and most recent example. I think I only cast a single vote for scum at one point (Cuzz), and never lynched a scum,and never even had a scumread on a scum, despite surviving 3 rounds of play.
It doesn't make you scum. I said this in my original post. It is enough to make me suspicious. The combination of that with other evidence is what made me vote for you. I think I've made clear the fact that there there was tipping point in my mind from "eh scummy" to "want to lynch".
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
These are not good reasons to vote for me. If you are pretty sure one of Mcmc/ash is scum, you should probably vote for one of those people. Especially if me being scum relies on one of them being my partner, in your view.
I have voted for both of them in the past. Fortunately I dont need to be write about both of them for my case on you to hold up. I just need to be right about both one of them. Are you saying we should lynch both Ash and Mcmc (potentially both town) in order to clear your name in just my eyes?
I don't know why the fact that YOU try the "wrong, day after day" as scum plan makes ME scum. It's frequently joked that I am a horrible town player, constantly reading people wrong. This has happened in many games, M-XVI being the best and most recent example. I think I only cast a single vote for scum at one point (Cuzz), and never lynched a scum,and never even had a scumread on a scum, despite surviving 3 rounds of play.
It doesn't make you scum. I said this in my original post. It is enough to make me suspicious. The combination of that with other evidence is what made me vote for you. I think I've made clear the fact that there there was tipping point in my mind from "eh scummy" to "want to lynch".
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
Your post basically says that "no matter what Robz actually is, I'm still convinced on Ash and mcmc, too." That means you think all three of us are remaining scum? And that even if you are wrong on one or two of us, you are still convinced on the other?
Welp, that's stubborn, tunnelling town!munch if I've ever seen it.
I won't vote for Munch today, but man he's killing town with that attitude.
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@Munch
If I am lynched, and flip town, will that change your read on Robz?
If we lynch Robz, and he flips town, will that change your read on me (or mcmc)?
You being town doesn't change my read on Robz. You AND mcmc flipping town would dampen my read on Robz. I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
Your post basically says that "no matter what Robz actually is, I'm still convinced on Ash and mcmc, too." That means you think all three of us are remaining scum? And that even if you are wrong on one or two of us, you are still convinced on the other?
Welp, that's stubborn, tunnelling town!munch if I've ever seen it.
I won't vote for Munch today, but man he's killing town with that attitude.
I think one of Ash/Mcmc is scum. I have thought this before I had a scum read on Robz. I am relatively confident of this.
If one of Ash/Mcmc is scum, I can see Robz being scum and specifically one of their partners.
If Robz is scum, this gives credit to the idea that one of Ash/Mcmc is Robz partner.
If Robz isn't scum, it doesn't not devalue the reads that I already had on Ash/Mcmc.
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Reread yuma day1.
Nothing stands out to me there. He seldom, but occasionally engaged Galzria in conversation. I don't see a reason to really suspect him as Galzria's partner, except Galz' interaction with him, which seems a little off, and yuma being off the Cuzz-wagon. It's really frustrating actually, in looking at the Cuzz-wagon the player to lynch looks to me like yuma. I think I need to look at a wagon-analysis, yuma did one earlier, but I'm going to only look at lynches that went through.
It's interesting actually, living players off-wagon:
myself, Jimmmmm, yuma, Dsell, mcmcsalot
living players on-wagon:
Robz, ashersky, Munch, Glooble, liopoil.
That's an interesting even split.
Now, the Eevee-lynch, on-wagon:
ashersky, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
off-wagon:
myself, Jimmmmm, Dsell, Glooble
Let's suppose for a moment that there are 2 scum still alive who split on both lynches. Then candidates would be:
myself-Robz, ashersky, munch, or liopoil
Jimmmmm-Robz, ashersky, munch, or liopoil
Dsell-Robz, ashersky, munch, liopoil
Glooble-mcmcsalot, yuma
Interestingly shraeye was on both wagons and killed.
That makes myself, Jimmmmm, and Dsell scummiest there.
I'm town, and Dsell seems likely enough to be town. So, that leaves Jimmmmm. Which is insufficient to finish Galz' team, and be on another team also.
SO, I must conclude that it's more likely that scum is killing on-wagon taking a "bold" move. This actually makes me suspect yuma somewhat less, and suspect Glooble somewhat more.
So, I think I could get behind a Glooble lynch. I'm not sure that I prefer it to lynching Robz. But then I'm not sure how good an idea it is to lynch Robz either. On the one hand (unlike Munch) I think Robz' flip could be pretty meaningful. If he's town, then I think mcmcsalot is really likely town. If he's scum, I could see it going either way (unless he's not a tracker, in which case mcmcsalot is clearly scum). But, I also think he's at least a little more likely to flip town than Glooble.
So, I'm going to vote: Glooble and see where that takes us.
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@yuma: that was a good clarification of the case on Glooble from my perspective.
I think to me the essential question is: was the shraeye read genuine or made up?
Because realistically, that's the difference between our positions...I agree with your other points, but I'm basically leaning town on him for his defense of shraeye, while you're leaning scum on him for essentially the same reason. When I look at that "shraeye and Galz are towny but scummier if Cuzz flips town" thing, I agree that it can be read as an excuse to read Galz as townier if Cuzz flips scum. BUT it reads as an excuse to read primarily shraeye (not Galz) as scummier if Cuzz does flip town. I mean, sure it could be an excuse to bus, but let's face it scum isn't generally looking for an "excuse" to bus. His claim that shraeye would look scummy but then NOT finding shraeye scummy seems like such a town thing to do, not a scum thing to do. So, I come to the completely opposite conclusion: Glooble is townier because he stuck by that town-read when he could have gone to a scum-read if he was scum.
These are some good points. And making me really look back and see how I am looking at this, because I hadn't fully considered this in this light. I mean, I guess part of this problem is that I started from the view point of who could be a potential Galz's partner and worked backwards to reach Glooble. So perhaps my read of these posts and events is due to some sort of bias in looking at that direction whereas yours is from looking at the opposite direction. I need to think on this more...
But it appears to be ironic that you have convinced me to question my read on Glooble whereas it appears that I have caused you to question your read on Glooble and vote for him, although your vote seems more based off wagon analysis, which to be honest I didn't completely understand.... not that I am against your vote, I still think--despite my new slight reservations--that he is the best lynch for today, but rather I wonder if you could re-explain this why this wagon analysis points to Glooble. I don't doubt that it does, but I just can't quite make the connection from what you wrote.
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Yuma, while I still think it is unlikely that robz is scum and mcmc town, your post makes me recognize it is a real possibility now. Vote: Robz888.
don't use me as an excuse for your vote. I don't think Robz is the lynch choice for today... and said so in the post that you are apparently using to justify this post...
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@yuma: that was a good clarification of the case on Glooble from my perspective.
I think to me the essential question is: was the shraeye read genuine or made up?
Because realistically, that's the difference between our positions...I agree with your other points, but I'm basically leaning town on him for his defense of shraeye, while you're leaning scum on him for essentially the same reason. When I look at that "shraeye and Galz are towny but scummier if Cuzz flips town" thing, I agree that it can be read as an excuse to read Galz as townier if Cuzz flips scum. BUT it reads as an excuse to read primarily shraeye (not Galz) as scummier if Cuzz does flip town. I mean, sure it could be an excuse to bus, but let's face it scum isn't generally looking for an "excuse" to bus. His claim that shraeye would look scummy but then NOT finding shraeye scummy seems like such a town thing to do, not a scum thing to do. So, I come to the completely opposite conclusion: Glooble is townier because he stuck by that town-read when he could have gone to a scum-read if he was scum.
These are some good points. And making me really look back and see how I am looking at this, because I hadn't fully considered this in this light. I mean, I guess part of this problem is that I started from the view point of who could be a potential Galz's partner and worked backwards to reach Glooble. So perhaps my read of these posts and events is due to some sort of bias in looking at that direction whereas yours is from looking at the opposite direction. I need to think on this more...
But it appears to be ironic that you have convinced me to question my read on Glooble whereas it appears that I have caused you to question your read on Glooble and vote for him, although your vote seems more based off wagon analysis, which to be honest I didn't completely understand.... not that I am against your vote, I still think--despite my new slight reservations--that he is the best lynch for today, but rather I wonder if you could re-explain this why this wagon analysis points to Glooble. I don't doubt that it does, but I just can't quite make the connection from what you wrote.
I still believe liopoil is the best lynch for the day.
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can we get a prod of the mod? What's the latest vote count? It's been like ten pages.
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@yuma: that was a good clarification of the case on Glooble from my perspective.
I think to me the essential question is: was the shraeye read genuine or made up?
Because realistically, that's the difference between our positions...I agree with your other points, but I'm basically leaning town on him for his defense of shraeye, while you're leaning scum on him for essentially the same reason. When I look at that "shraeye and Galz are towny but scummier if Cuzz flips town" thing, I agree that it can be read as an excuse to read Galz as townier if Cuzz flips scum. BUT it reads as an excuse to read primarily shraeye (not Galz) as scummier if Cuzz does flip town. I mean, sure it could be an excuse to bus, but let's face it scum isn't generally looking for an "excuse" to bus. His claim that shraeye would look scummy but then NOT finding shraeye scummy seems like such a town thing to do, not a scum thing to do. So, I come to the completely opposite conclusion: Glooble is townier because he stuck by that town-read when he could have gone to a scum-read if he was scum.
These are some good points. And making me really look back and see how I am looking at this, because I hadn't fully considered this in this light. I mean, I guess part of this problem is that I started from the view point of who could be a potential Galz's partner and worked backwards to reach Glooble. So perhaps my read of these posts and events is due to some sort of bias in looking at that direction whereas yours is from looking at the opposite direction. I need to think on this more...
But it appears to be ironic that you have convinced me to question my read on Glooble whereas it appears that I have caused you to question your read on Glooble and vote for him, although your vote seems more based off wagon analysis, which to be honest I didn't completely understand.... not that I am against your vote, I still think--despite my new slight reservations--that he is the best lynch for today, but rather I wonder if you could re-explain this why this wagon analysis points to Glooble. I don't doubt that it does, but I just can't quite make the connection from what you wrote.
Ah, right, I can see why that might be confusing. I don't think the wagon analysis points to Glooble, I think it discounts the idea which I was still harboring that Galz' partner wasn't on the Cuzz-lynch. I did go off on a tangent where I wondered if there would be an obvious pairing assuming the "other" team had a 1-on, 1-off tendency. Then I got distracted by the idea that basically there were 4 options there, and only 2 of them were viable. So one of the following must be true: the supposition that both teams are going 1-on, 1-off based on them NKing people on-wagon is wrong OR both Jimmmmm and Glooble are scum OR Dsell is scum (you could include me in this last category, but that's not actually an option from my perspective).
Note: I'm assuming that Galz' partner would have been off the Eevee-lynch here as part of the they wouldn't kill raerae when they're both on the Cuzz-lynch supposition. Because killing shraeye when you are scum on the Eevee-wagon is similar in "bold"ness to killing raerae as scum on the Cuzz-lynch.
If I go with option 2, well, Glooble is a good lynch obviously.
If I go with option 1, then Glooble loses the bit of his town-read coming from him being with Galzria on the Cuzz-lynch.
Then I have to acknowledge that though I got a town-read from his shraeye-read, both you and shraeye got scumreads off of it/in spite of it. That's enough for me to vote there, because I think I can have a tendency to stay away from wagons to the detriment of town. I'm generally too hesitant with my vote (which is why I often end up in a hammering position, which someone else often still takes from me). So, I'm no longer opposed to a Glooble-lynch, and someone has to go with weaker scum-reads. Honestly, all of my scum-reads are pretty weak at the moment; also, I'm wrong a lot...so it might as well be me.
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I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
I'm sorry but I just don't understand this post in the context of your vote on Robz... I mean I could see you voting Robz if we were getting close to lynch deadline and he was a viable wagon and we needed to get a lynch through. But right now? With other options available, including one of the people you are "confident is scum", voting Robz doesn't make sense to me.... I guess what is the point of trying to get Robz lynched if you think scum is elsewhere? Am I missing something?
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This is really the final post that turns my scum suspicion on robz into a full blown will-lynch. Robz has now expressed a strong town read on my two top scum reads. Theorel posted what I was thinking regarding why specifically singling out Ashersky for his participation on the Cuzz lynch is strange. So thats why I am willing to lynch him. The read on Ashersky is so out of place. I dont think anyone that has played as much as Robz has should ever "expect more rational subtle play from scum Ashersky". I dont expect rational subtle anything from anything!Ashersky.
Since then Robz has responded to this with:
I don't know, maybe my town read on Ash is more meta than anything else. And my reads have not been good this game. But I really, really don't think scum!Ashersky plays this way, because playing this way was likely to get him lynched.
This doesn't really make much sense to me. How can Robz say that his reads have been not so good and then fervently cling to the notion that his meta reads actually work? (my answer: because his read on Ashersky isn't genuine)
why aren't you suspicious of me then? I have a strong townread on ash, and while a scummy read on mcmc I don't want to vote him today--see my previous analysis that says voting for him requires more understanding of what scumteams exist.
So why is Robz scummy for this and I am not? Robz and I actually have pretty similar reasons for why we think ash is town. Not exactly the same, but pretty similar. My read is very meta based, but also based on my time spend playing or modding over ash. Yes crazy ash to me is very townash. But it is more than that as well. When ash is scum he creates cases based off nothing--this is what I was looking for in players Day1 because to me it is a scumtell. Ash did this with me as scum in MXIV and as scum in MXV--where I spotted it day1 and called him out on it. But he has not done that in any game where he was town, nor has he done it today.
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Snagging mod status and working on a vote count. Stay tuned...
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Vote Count 3.3
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (L-3): ashersky, yuma, theorel
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
Not Voting (3): Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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anyone remember this quote:
ScumDsell is not lurker scum. With that said, I am not going to fall behind in this game again.
Dsell hasn't posted since the 26th.
A little bit later tonight I am going to do that daily vote count I mentioned earlier...
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1. ashersky total: 294; 177 from day 1 (60%); 93 from day2 (32%); 24 from day3 (8%)
2. Robz total: 254 169 from day 1 (66%); 61 from day2 (24%); 24 from day3 (9%)
3. yuma total: 134; 73 from day 1 (54%); 41 from day2 (30%); 20 from day3 (15%)
7. Glooble total: 63; 35 from day 1 (55%); 24 from day2 (38%); 4 from day3 (6%)
9. liopoil total: 91; 37 from day 1 (40%); 36 from day2 (40%); 18 from day3 (20%)
10. mcmcsalot total: 91; 48 from day 1 (52%); 31 from day2 (34%); 12 from day3 (13%)
11. Jimmmmm total: 170; 127 from day 1 (74%); 35 from day2 (21%) ; 8 from day3 (4%)
12. theorel total: 71; 26 from day 1 (36%); 33 from day2 (46%); 12 from day3 (16%)
13. themunch total: 109; 49 from day1 (45%); 42 from day2 (38%); 18 from day3 (16%)
14. Dsell total: 44; 30 from day1 (68%); 8 from day2 (18%); 6 from day3 (13%)
So this is just a breakdown of posts per day and percentage of total posts per day. Big things that struck out to me was Jimmmm diminishing posts (I mean just about everyone is diminishing in posts (partially because the day is not yet over), but he has dramatically decreased as the days have gone by. Glooble is similar, but on a smaller scale because he posts less. And Dsell actually is about up to speed % wise, but lagging far far behind in total. Whereas Robz and ash aren't quite up to speed % wise, but still have a greater than average total posts in all days.
So big take away FOS: Jimmmm and Glooble (hey look I am already voting there) as I continue to think that it becomes increasingly harder for scum to writer posts, especially posts that are meaningful and not likely to create suspicion, as the game goes on.
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1. ashersky total: 294; 177 from day 1 (60%); 93 from day2 (32%); 24 from day3 (8%)
2. Robz total: 254 169 from day 1 (66%); 61 from day2 (24%); 24 from day3 (9%)
3. yuma total: 134; 73 from day 1 (54%); 41 from day2 (30%); 20 from day3 (15%)
7. Glooble total: 63; 35 from day 1 (55%); 24 from day2 (38%); 4 from day3 (6%)
9. liopoil total: 91; 37 from day 1 (40%); 36 from day2 (40%); 18 from day3 (20%)
10. mcmcsalot total: 91; 48 from day 1 (52%); 31 from day2 (34%); 12 from day3 (13%)
11. Jimmmmm total: 170; 127 from day 1 (74%); 35 from day2 (21%) ; 8 from day3 (4%)
12. theorel total: 71; 26 from day 1 (36%); 33 from day2 (46%); 12 from day3 (16%)
13. themunch total: 109; 49 from day1 (45%); 42 from day2 (38%); 18 from day3 (16%)
14. Dsell total: 44; 30 from day1 (68%); 8 from day2 (18%); 6 from day3 (13%)
Thanks to yuma for this, that's a good amount of work. I think the take away for me is further suspicion of Jimmmmm.
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Two things before I go to bed,
1) now that the glooble case has been laid out I do see the possibility of scum!glooble, I would be confident enough to put my vote there seeing as I don't think a liopoil lunch is going to happe.
2) didn't we at one point feel certain there was scum in munch/shraeye/raerae. I was confused on why this was, baisically I remember people thinking one scum was likely to hide behind the irl relationship with the others. I bring it up because a few people were certain about this and I wonder if they still feel that way.
vote: glooble
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Snagging mod status and working on a vote count. Stay tuned...
Gold star.
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I'm on my way to work - I get off at 3. I'd appreciate not being hammered before I have a chance to claim, etc.
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9. liopoil total: 91; 37 from day 1 (40%); 36 from day2 (40%); 18 from day3 (20%)
Hey guys, look, I'm consistent!
I don't think munch is scum, but, for the whole, "one of munch/shraeye/raerae is scum" to be true he would have to be. FoS people who thought one of them was scum, seems like trying to get two misslynchs.
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So I have been thinking about this game while in my rotations and two things jumped out at me... The nagging beginnings of doubt about glooble--mostly caused by theorels posts, but also by town reads on glooble from others--and second an increasing suspicion of jimmm.
It isn't just the lurking. Although that is certainly there, I mean that is what turned me on was his mxi ftl like decreasing post count. But also just his stance on wagons, his day1 stuff I mentioned back then, his weird interpretation of robz/mcmc... I just want to look at him more and more.
Gah. I think I am going to change my vote. I still think glooble is playing scummy and would love to hear more from him and continue to see his responses, but I am beginning to wonder if jimmm is better. I think it might be. I'll go ahead and
vote: jimmmmmm. I am still willing to vote glooble but I think this is a good route to go.
I have to run for a bit, but I'll be back to post a more sufficient case for others to read and for him to respond to. I am glad we still have about a week left. I need to think things through again.
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We've got just under a week to deadline, and yuma's working to derail our only promising lynch.
Odds that Glooble actually provides any content now that the pressure is lifting? Close to nil.
Big FOS yuma for his 180 after Glooble commits to providing a response but before we are able to see if he actually comes through. Glooble's just been given permission to continue not to worry.
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I have not had a lot of time for mafia this week... and that's not going to change for the next few days. So I'm glad we actually have a week left.
Ash, I see what you're saying about what yuma did there. I don't like it at all, but I don't think it's so scummy. Unless a Glooble/yuma pairing was actually possible. I don't know whether it's possible or not.
I'm still most supportive of a Glooble or liopoil lynch. Probably liopoil more than Glooble, actually; I've just found liopoil really, really joiny, rather than building unique cases.
I'm also wary of Munch now that I don't think his anti-me reasons made much sense (compared to other people's), but maybe that's just bias against someone who is against me.
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We've got just under a week to deadline, and yuma's working to derail our only promising lynch.
Odds that Glooble actually provides any content now that the pressure is lifting? Close to nil.
Big FOS yuma for his 180 after Glooble commits to providing a response but before we are able to see if he actually comes through. Glooble's just been given permission to continue not to worry.
I don't get this... We have a week. That is as in a whole week, not only a week. It isn't like we are in crunch time here.
Second, I am not derailing anything. I am trying to lynch scum. I don't know if glooble is scum. I think he is likely scum, but I am not sure if he is more likely scum than Jimmm, that is what I am trying to find out.
Third, Glooble isn't our only promising lynch. That sort of mindset is exactly what got Cuzz lynched Day1 and has been the bane of this game so far. People get deadset on their bad reads, stick to them, dont' look at anyone else and then we lynch town! Ugh!
Fourth, Glooble already responded to me and as I said in the post I above I still expect Glooble to provide content. If he doesn't, well... like I said, I have no problem going back to him.
Glooble should still worry if he is town. He should worry about a mislynch. If he is scum... well then. I don't care... he can just not post and we will lynch him.
But I do really want to take a look at Jimmmm. Do you agree that his downward trend in posting is scummy?
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Is your only case on me my decreased activity? I can see why that looks bad, but it's mostly just that I had a much better idea of things I wanted to do earlier in the game than I do now. Most people I've had a strong read on are dead, and I just don't really know where to turn to now, and developing something new sounds like a heck of a lot of work, and will require more free time than I've really had lately. So I will do my best to increase my contributions.
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But I do really want to take a look at Jimmmm. Do you agree that his downward trend in posting is scummy?
I think he's a fair candidate for a second look, but I don't find his downward trend particularly scummy, in comparison to others, like Glooble.
He was active early, when it is easiest to lurk as scum. I don't have a particular read on Jimmmmm, probably on the scummy side of neutral, but he's nowhere near the top of the scumpack.
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Jimmmm -
Quick Day1 summary:
- weird do not lynch me until I claim thing... like really early in the game.
- early case on Eevee
- this quote I somehow missed before If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.
- followed by this one that I also missed... Of course, my other intention was to make sure I'm allowed to claim before being lynched (I have been lynched before while I was away, albeit in a blitz game when it was not unexpected). We can discuss it further if and when have to claim.
Both of these potentially look like scum forcing a breadcrumb.
- I think the weirdest thing about his eevee case was that 1. he presented it and then 2. followed up with nothing but fluff posts and the two I mentioned above... CSI: Miama, joking with the mod, commenting on other jokes... It was like he wanted to present the case, but not push it too hard... 3. and then he completely backs off after hearing a response. I didn't notice this before, but it makes it seem... more forced.
- He then gives rereads on a lot of players, and really gives nothing on any of them (Cuzz, Galz, Dsell and sparky) also says he won't support a Galz lynch "because he is Galz and because he is busy"
- votes mcmc, for what I see as a pretty good reason
- back to a scum read on eevee
- has a couple of squirmy posts in response to pressure, especially one where he calls out Robz for voting for him for "information" but Robz wasn't actually voting for him
- votes glooble, but then unvotes him pretty quickly
- lots of big posts day1... responding to people, lots of quotes, arguments
- thinks cuzz is probably town, but is willing to vote for him to end the day... yuck.
- announces intent to hammer if Cuzz hasn't posted in 10 minutes, but then doesn't vote (to be fair within that 10 minutes I had the post that started the shraeye quickwagon)... but still, people found mcmc scummy for a very similar thing, but jimmm hasn't received any flack for it and I think it is a scummier scenario and he continued to not hammer cuzz throughout that time to the end of day despite his declared intent...
(that wasn't quick... but Jimmm posted a lot day1)
Day2
- gets very defensive very quick about the potential of him and galz being scum partners in regard to his interactions with galz and having a town read on him day1
- claims that the killing of raerae was done to implicate jimmmm
- this quote Just a thought on Galz to put down: I think Galz was in a fairly difficult situation in this game. He didn't want to be suspected enough to be lynched, but he wanted to be suspected enough to avoid being nightkilled by the other scum team/SK. I think people expressing Town reads on him and expressing a desire to not lynch him, as well as his scumhunting reputation, contributed to him being nightkilled. So I think the correct play by Galz' partner/s would be to try to cast some suspicion on him - not enough to get him lynched, but enough to make him seem less Towny and thus less likely to be nightkilled. That's not necessarily what they did, but I think that would have been the right thing to do.
which is basically the exact opposite of what he did.... potentially trying to move looking at galz's partner in a direction that leads away from Jimmmm
- another good quote about galz Then he expressed his four lynch targets: me, Cuzz, shraeye and mcmc. The question I would ask is, how likely do you think it is that Galz would include a partner of his in that list? It seems like the thing often done by scum, but perhaps this is a different situation since with multiple scum teams, his team makes up a smaller percentage of the population. If he did include a partner in that list, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. If he didn't, then he probably named people who he actually thought were scummy. In which case we really have Galz' famous scumhunting at work, which might still count for something. And again, that leaves me with shraeye and mcmc. Given that I also suspected both of these on my own, the idea that there's at least one scum between them is looking more and more likely to me.
cuzz and shareye are dead... leaving Jimmm and mcmc. According to Jimmm's logic here we should be looking at those two. mcmc is semi-cleared (50%ish) from being Galz's partner... so that leaves Jimmm
- votes shraeye partially because of the above, but also because of the cuzz lynch...
- then switches to mcmc, but is back to shraeye after the Robz reveal
- doesn't appear to be online during the eevee lynch... or during the final hours of the day.
Day3
- thinks the case on Glooble has merit....
- thinks robz/mcmc are either scum together or town together.
- finds the most scummy (yuma, glooble, lio, themunch)
so there is quite a bit of stuff I find off about Jimmmm... a lot of it from Day1 because that is where most of his posts are. It is hard though... because he certainly has more posts than Glooble, so there are more opportunities for posts to seem scummy, so I will try to take that into account, but even then. There is day2 and day3 posts that I still find scummy. so to summarize.
1. lots of interaction with galz. especially defensively or pro-actively before suspicion is given. Trying to lead town in a direction to find scum that wouldn't implicate himself after Galz is NK... Town reads on Galz throughout day1 for really no reason.
2. the weird day1 claiming thing. Setting up a very obvious breadcrumb. I have often said before that town shouldn't need to breadcrumb and I think it isn't a very pro-town thing to do and is more of a scum trait than anything else. Scum thinks no one will believe their claim. Town can't believe it when no one believes their claim. so scum sets up the breadcrumb. Town is just incredulous when they are lynched
3. the eevee case was kinda weird, especially all the jokes in the middle. Joking isn't necessarily a scum trait, but I do wonder if Jimmm was trying not to push too hard? I don't know how good of a point this is, but I will include it for completeness' sake.
4. announcing intent to hammer Cuzz, but never does it (disclaimer: this can be explained by my "interruption" but still he never did hammer even when it became obvious that Cuzz was going to be lynched and not shraeye.
5. His post about Galz's four suspects I think has great potential. And I agree with his analysis. That Galz was likely to talk about one of his partners in that post... so that eliminates Cuzz and shraeye, leaving mcmc and Jimmm. I have already stated that mcmc isn't a great option for today... leaving Jimmm as the only one left from the foursome.
6. His increasing lurkiness as the game goes on. He has explained this as having a hard time doing rereads--yes they are hard, but I just did one in a relativly short amount of time and got a lot out of it--not having a lot of free time--this is valid, life is busy--had more to comment during the early game than now--I strongly question this, I mean there is sooooo much to talk about now, whereas day1 didn't have nearly as much--and that his former strong reads are dead--all of which were wrong, this sounds mean, but it is true... Scummy reads on Cuzz, shraeye, eevee, townie read on Galz... I dont' remember his read on raerae.
7. trying to paint robz/mcmc as certainly on the same team... I guess this isn't so much a reason for scumminess, but simply a disagreement on how to interpret the events...
So the question is do I think jimmm is scum? I think he very well could be. I would put him on the same level as glooble in terms of scuminess, maybe a little above and I will keep my vote on him.
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I'll respond to the Cuzz thing. By and large I had a Town read on Cuzz. But towards the end of day 1, I really didn't like the way he was responding to his imminent lynch. He very much seemed to be stalling, so I was trying to force him to say something useful. I announced intent to hammer if he didn't stop stalling. His hiding his reason for a Town read on me, and then it just being because Dsell had one seemed so weird that I was almost ready to hammer just for that, but then his explanation kind of made sense. So towards the end of the day I was trying to figure out if his scummy-seeming responses overruled my overall Town read on him. He just seemed so scummy then, but so Towny previously.
Obviously I was wrong about shraeye, and I was wrong early about Eevee. Although as you say I wasn't around for the Eevee lynch, and I can't really remember off the top of my head why he was lynched, but I do remember thinking I probably wouldn't have supported it. If it was based on "I'm so Towny I don't even have to try" and then lurking, well that kind of struck me as Town Eevee.
Also, I don't think I ever had a particular Town read on Galz (until after he died strangely enough, re-reading him on day 2 I had to keep reminding myself he was actually scum). I gave other reasons for not wanting to lynch him, which may or may not be a good thing to do in general.
The "this sounds mean, but is true" thing is mostly true, and I think is a big reason for my reduced contributions: I had a big scumread on Eevee, and that came to nothing (long before he was killed). I had a scumread on shraeye and he was Town. I had a scumread on mcmc, and now it seems he's likely Town. So yeah, I'm not too sure what to do next.
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Also, I don't think I ever had a particular Town read on Galz (until after he died strangely enough, re-reading him on day 2 I had to keep reminding myself he was actually scum). I gave other reasons for not wanting to lynch him, which may or may not be a good thing to do in general.
There is this:
You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
and this:
Okay, off the top of my head, I'd like to lynch shraeye or mom salon. I would not like to lynch Dsell, Galz or theorel. Anyone else I would seriously consider any cases/wagons on them. This includes Cuzz, who as I said I'd like more of a response from.
Although you do say this later toward the end of day.
I don't find anyone on the Cuzz wagon particularly Towny. The best I've got would be close to null-reads on Galz, Glooble and lio.
So yes you don't have a "town-read" on Galz. But you do have a "will-not lynch" status on him. Which to me is essentially the same thing as a "town-read" because in both situations you weren't going to vote for him, which in a game of mafia is what actually maters.
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Are you arguing that you think I'm Galz' partner, or that I was wrong to say I wouldn't vote for him?
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Are you arguing that you think I'm Galz' partner, or that I was wrong to say I wouldn't vote for him?
Neither. I am arguing that you have potential to be Galz's partner. I think anyone we are going to lynch at this point should have a credible scum!partner relationship with Galz--because that is the most information we have to go off scumwise.
So what I am saying is that I could see you as Galz's partner voluntarily expressing an unwillingness to vote for him but at the same time having a "null-read" on him.
This, along with the above information in my larger post about you is why I am voting for you, especially your immediate defensive posture day2 in regard to Galz and your potential as a scumparnter of his.
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Are you arguing that you think I'm Galz' partner, or that I was wrong to say I wouldn't vote for him?
Neither. I am arguing that you have potential to be Galz's partner. I think anyone we are going to lynch at this point should have a credible scum!partner relationship with Galz--because that is the most information we have to go off scumwise.
So what I am saying is that I could see you as Galz's partner voluntarily expressing an unwillingness to vote for him but at the same time having a "null-read" on him.
This, along with the above information in my larger post about you is why I am voting for you, especially your immediate defensive posture day2 in regard to Galz and your potential as a scumparnter of his.
I disagree that today's lynch has to be aimed at Galz's partner. Why shouldn't we try for the other team? Seems like you are deflecting from there.
I do think jimmmmm is a fair target, though.
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Are you arguing that you think I'm Galz' partner, or that I was wrong to say I wouldn't vote for him?
Neither. I am arguing that you have potential to be Galz's partner. I think anyone we are going to lynch at this point should have a credible scum!partner relationship with Galz--because that is the most information we have to go off scumwise.
So what I am saying is that I could see you as Galz's partner voluntarily expressing an unwillingness to vote for him but at the same time having a "null-read" on him.
This, along with the above information in my larger post about you is why I am voting for you, especially your immediate defensive posture day2 in regard to Galz and your potential as a scumparnter of his.
I disagree that today's lynch has to be aimed at Galz's partner. Why shouldn't we try for the other team? Seems like you are deflecting from there.
I do think jimmmmm is a fair target, though.
We should certainly try for the other team. Do you have any leads that we can pursue? If you do let me know. I haven't heard any, so until then I am going to pursue the direction in which we do have a lead... Galz's team.
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we haven't heard from theorel, mcmc, themunch or dsell in two days, about six for dsell. Can we get a prod for dsell He hasn't posted since the 26th.
I know it is the weekend now, but most everyone apparently decided to take their weekends early from the amount of participation we have had over the last few days.
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I am here! And I actually I am basically caught up, I just haven't had terribly much to say about the sparse goings on.
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Sorry, I've just been kind of following along without saying anything. I don't think Jimmmmm is a good lynch for today. I'd prefer Glooble, liopoil, Robz, or ashersky. After the rereadings, etc, I've done today those are my top-4, in about that order...Glooble-liopoil are about even, so I couldn't say which I actually preferred. Honestly I'd almost be willing to lynch Dsell, but I don't think I'm there yet.
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The Pah-Wraith cultists have only gotten more out of control since they sacrificed Major Kira. They're already talking about more sacrifices, up to and including using the thrusters to throw the station into the wormhole, which doesn't even really make any sense.
Vote Count 3.4
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (L-3): ashersky, theorel, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
jimmmmm (1): yuma
Not Voting (3): Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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I haven't been saying much because there isn't much for me to say. I guess I can comment that your case on Jimm makes some sense, but it just doesn't feel like a home run, mainly because one persons opinion on as much stuff as you brought up makes a person look scummy simply because you find them scummy. So I don't necessarily support cases that are driven entirely by one person.
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I am here! And I actually I am basically caught up, I just haven't had terribly much to say about the sparse goings on.
this is hard to believe... There is plenty to talk about since your last post... Here are some examples... (the text in the quote is my quick summary of that post, click the link to actually read the whole thing)
Theorel's case on lio
possibility of Robz and mcmc being scum!buddies
possibility of Robz being scum, but mcmc town
themunch's vote and case on Robz
Glooble's response to my case
theorel's wagon analysis that led to a glooble vote
my case and vote on Jimmmm
That is just a sampling.... And you still haven't voted, or even been close to voting all game long!
I am not saying you need to respond to all of the above, but a post or two in response from you would have been nice. But to say that there is nothing to respond to is bunk!
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I haven't been saying much because there isn't much for me to say. I guess I can comment that your case on Jimm makes some sense, but it just doesn't feel like a home run, mainly because one persons opinion on as much stuff as you brought up makes a person look scummy simply because you find them scummy. So I don't necessarily support cases that are driven entirely by one person.
Yes and that is why I want to hear from other people. Not enough people have responded yay or nay to my Jimmmm case. Some have just completely ignored it (Dsell cough, cough) for me to get an idea if it really is one worth pursuing or not. I think it is, but like you said, I just have one player's opinion.
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I'm not hugely persuaded that Jimm is a good lynch. You think he's underposting, yuma? It doesn't seem like it to me. I think he's had plenty of substance to say. Yes, I could see him as Galzria's partner. I could really see anyone as Galz's partner, though (except Mcmc, who took no action when I would expect him to if he was Galz's partner).
Here's my ordering. it's based almost entirely on how much I think people are contributing:
Liopoil, Glooble, Dsell, Munch, Jimm, theorel, ashersky, yuma, mcmc
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Those first three on my list just have been the most silent, from day 1 and on. And like I can't even imagine that we don't have any lurking scum. You know we haven't killed any lurkers yet, maybe that's why we haven't hit scum? But beyond the lurking, they just don't have much original thought to offer. I see liopoil sheeping A LOT, for instance. Glooble, we are used to this from him, but he has done this as scum. And Dsell... well, there's still that day 1 thing, so I'm way more in favor of lynching the other two. Maybe his semi-obvtown status has made him act like this? I don't know.
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Vote: Liopoil for now, but I am very willing to go with Glooble if that's preferred. I urge the Glooble voters to give liopoil another look, though.
I should really give EVERYBODY another look, but I won't have time yet for a few days. Apologies for being really busy IRL.
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robz, I have consistently through all the days been only slightly on the lower half of the post counts. How am I contributing less than Dsell?
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robz, I have consistently through all the days been only slightly on the lower half of the post counts. How am I contributing less than Dsell?
I don't think the only slightly part is right. Though you have contributed more than Dsell, definitely. Dsell has that station thing going for him, though.
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1. ashersky total: 294; 177 from day 1 (60%); 93 from day2 (32%); 24 from day3 (8%)
2. Robz total: 254 169 from day 1 (66%); 61 from day2 (24%); 24 from day3 (9%)
3. yuma total: 134; 73 from day 1 (54%); 41 from day2 (30%); 20 from day3 (15%)
7. Glooble total: 63; 35 from day 1 (55%); 24 from day2 (38%); 4 from day3 (6%)
9. liopoil total: 91; 37 from day 1 (40%); 36 from day2 (40%); 18 from day3 (20%)
10. mcmcsalot total: 91; 48 from day 1 (52%); 31 from day2 (34%); 12 from day3 (13%)
11. Jimmmmm total: 170; 127 from day 1 (74%); 35 from day2 (21%) ; 8 from day3 (4%)
12. theorel total: 71; 26 from day 1 (36%); 33 from day2 (46%); 12 from day3 (16%)
13. themunch total: 109; 49 from day1 (45%); 42 from day2 (38%); 18 from day3 (16%)
14. Dsell total: 44; 30 from day1 (68%); 8 from day2 (18%); 6 from day3 (13%)
Overall T-6th out of 10. 7th D1. 5th D2. T-4th D3. That's only slightly on the lower half I think...
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Yuma's case on Jimmm is good. Particularly the part about Galz' list of scumspects. Since it's multi-scum, I could see Galz putting no scum partners on the list, but I'm not sure. I also agree with yuma about Jimmm's exposition about how Galz' partner would act.
Since I have a town-read on yuma, my town read on Jimmm is definitely lessening. I could also support a liopoil lynch, probably.
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it looks like only dsell and ash think my case on Jimmmm has any merit at all. I still want to hear from themunch about it... I would assume that Glooble would think it has more merit than the case on him, but I don't really trust him at this point regardless...
As for lio. I have reread him... multiple times in fact. And I just don't think that the compelling case is there for him the same way that it is for Glooble or Jimmmm. The only things that anyone has really said about lio is that he has sheeped some votes and had some weird buddy interaction with Glooble. Is there anything we should look at in particular Robz?
I will revert back to vote: glooble as it appears votes on Jimmmm won't be forthcoming. Glooble remains a strong scum read and I support his lynch, but still think Jimmmm is a strong candidate as well.
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pretty sure that is L-2 for glooble FYI
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I'm here. Bout to do a reread on the last few pages. See if theres any merit to this Glooble thing.
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Vote: Liopoil for now, but I am very willing to go with Glooble if that's preferred. I urge the Glooble voters to give liopoil another look, though.
I should really give EVERYBODY another look, but I won't have time yet for a few days. Apologies for being really busy IRL.
I think Glooble is more likely to go through. Liopoil is looking bad, but I think less scummy and more newbie.
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Ok so I went back and have read basically since Yuma made the initial case on Glooble. I am slightly confused about what happened between that post and where we are right now. I could use a little help because I feel like I've gone through it multiple times and I dont really understand how we got back around to it or how he now is at L-2 now. Granted in the middle of it I was/am distracted by my reads on Ash/Mcmc/Robz. But who knows how much scum there is, I could be right about any or all of the 3 of them and Glooble might be scum.
I guess I just got confused by the Glooble case followed by Yuma making a Jimm case and people calling him out for derailing the only good lynch. Have people been on Glooble for a while for things other than lurking (which as an aside: I am becoming more and more cautious of and would actually prefer to lynch more lurkers) but that doesn't mean that I think that Yuma's initial case was super compelling. I thought it was meh at the time and I really dont think that its a hit it out of the park case right now.
That said, I dont particularly have a town read on Glooble. There are things that stuck out to me in his response to the Yuma case, more than the Yuma case regarding how he talked about the reads on players (I got an impression that he was willing to word his reads on people in inconsistent ways; whatever was best to rebuke a particular point in Yumas case). So yeah. Before I back my vote off Ash/Mcmc/Robz I feel like I need someone to set me straight on the actual events of the last few pages. My lack of participation is hurting me and my reads I feel.
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So yeah. Before I back my vote off Ash/Mcmc/Robz I feel like I need someone to set me straight on the actual events of the last few pages. My lack of participation is hurting me and my reads I feel.
Do you have anything specific that you want addressed? I mean the posts back there probably speak more clearly than I could attempt in a summary, unless some of the posts themselves are confusing?
If you have any specific questions I would be happy to answer them, but if you just want a generalization of what happened, I would just suggest rereading the posts again... because that is exactly what I would be doing in trying to explain to the events of the last few days...
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Are we still good with a soft-deadline of Wednesday? Like I mentioned before I hated that eevee never had a chance to respond before getting lynched and that was a direct result of us waiting until the deadline to get a lynch going... Deadline on Friday at noon?... So I think Wednesday at noon would be appropriate as a soft deadline.
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Are we still good with a soft-deadline of Wednesday? Like I mentioned before I hated that eevee never had a chance to respond before getting lynched and that was a direct result of us waiting until the deadline to get a lynch going... Deadline on Friday at noon?... So I think Wednesday at noon would be appropriate as a soft deadline.
Wednesday soft-deadline is good by me.
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Also, I don't like that Glooble's last post was when he was at L-2 asking for no one to hammer before he claims etc, but he hasn't posted anything since.
I mean, I don't expect him to claim unless his lynch seems pretty certain, but it seems like he should be saying something of the "etc". Instead yuma switched votes and Glooble decided to just be quiet and hope we lynched someone else.
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Also, I don't like that Glooble's last post was when he was at L-2 asking for no one to hammer before he claims etc, but he hasn't posted anything since.
I mean, I don't expect him to claim unless his lynch seems pretty certain, but it seems like he should be saying something of the "etc". Instead yuma switched votes and Glooble decided to just be quiet and hope we lynched someone else.
This.
Are we still good with a soft-deadline of Wednesday? Like I mentioned before I hated that eevee never had a chance to respond before getting lynched and that was a direct result of us waiting until the deadline to get a lynch going... Deadline on Friday at noon?... So I think Wednesday at noon would be appropriate as a soft deadline.
Sooner is better. I'd say Tuesday.
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I re-read Glooble, and as much as I wanted him to be scummy so that I could feel good about supporting the lynch of someone who's not me, I just didn't. His lurking seems like genuine busyness (although I could be more sympathetic than most to that given how little time I've seemed to have to play Mafia lately), and when he has been posting, he just read like a Townie who wants to contribute but is a little lost at times from being a bit behind. And unless there's something I missed, I haven't found any of the arguments on him terribly convincing either. So while I'd obviously prefer his lynch than mine, he doesn't look like a great candidate to me.
But we obviously need to decide on someone before deadline, preferably before a soft deadline. So I don't know. I think I should take a closer look at yuma and Munch.
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The thing is everything I've said about claiming before is just as true when its me on the line. Knowing my role won't help any of you know anything about my alignment. I have been keeping up with the thread, but I haven't had much time for analysis. And defending myself is difficult when the main case everyone has on me is perfectly true.
My top scumread remains ashersky.
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Alright, we're on page 80 of this game. It's a behemoth. I do think its time we got to night. Here's who's left:
1. ashersky
2. Robz
3. yuma
7. Glooble
9. liopoil
10. mcmcsalot
11. Jimmmmm
12. theorel
13. TheMunch
14. Dsell
We've got Glooble closest to lynching, a scum case on Jimmmmm built by yuma, there was a fleeting mcmc case, I think, and multiple scum reads on me from tunnelers and those under pressure.
Robz, yuma, and theorel seem to get passes for no apparent reason. Dsell is still lacking pressure after having made one D1 post, which I think is crazy.
TheMunch is the last remaining member of the mcshraeray crew. Not sure that makes him more or less scummy.
Out of the ten remaining alive, we've got at least 2 scum, or more, to find. We still don't know if we have an SK or a second scum team. We're in pretty rough shape.
I think we could revisit a mass claim, maybe at the start of D4? If we get a lynch, that is.
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Unofficial:
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, mcmcsalot, yuma (L-2)
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2): Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Robz, I think it's time you switched to Glooble, or made a compelling case for everyone to switch to lio.
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Robz, I think it's time you switched to Glooble, or made a compelling case for everyone to switch to lio.
I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
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uh-oh
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Robz, I think it's time you switched to Glooble, or made a compelling case for everyone to switch to lio.
I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I'll try to help...on D1, liopoil made one of those posts where he lists everyone and gives some info on them. Two lines from that:
Galzria: Also pretty null. Maybe slight town.
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Little to say on Galz, leaves Galz off his list.
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Robz, I think it's time you switched to Glooble, or made a compelling case for everyone to switch to lio.
I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I'll try to help...on D1, liopoil made one of those posts where he lists everyone and gives some info on them. Two lines from that:
Galzria: Also pretty null. Maybe slight town.
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Little to say on Galz, leaves Galz off his list.
good catch... but...
that tends to lead me to think that lio isn't galz's partner. Scum is generally very aware of who their partners are. A vet may intentionally leave a partner of such a list to try and do some double think with other vets... but lio as a newer player would be thinking the whole time, "where to put Galz... where to put Galz?" and wouldn't leave him off the list...
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Rest of D1 liopoil:
Lot of newbie stuff. Was hung up for a long time on Jimmmmm being Hated, which I think was a bit of misinformation that took off. Very jokey when suspected. Supported backing off of Glooble the first time he got pressure for lurking.
Called Galz town again later in the day, near the end.
Total of 37 posts on D1 by my count. Not a lot there. Definitely didn't earn any town cred, but wouldn't have been the best lynch D1.
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First Post of D2 from liopoil:
yay, things to analyze!
the scum-team with galz on it almost certainly killed raerae. The NK on raerae was most likely an attempt to get the other scum team. There were quite a few people who had a scum read on raerae, and ash was the one who pushed it the hardest. Ash has already addressed this, but I'm not sold on it. ash asked why he would push the lynch just to NK her later? well I'd assume that you would rater lynch her so you can NK someone else, plus if she's scum you get a little town cred. so FoS ash.
did galz think raerae was scum?
I think ash is a good target for the mirror universe cop tonight; if we don't lynch him.
I will have very limited access friday, Saturday, and sunday this week. sorry :(
who thought galz was scum? anyone? anyone who did should similarly have some suspicion.
A lot of assumptions about Galz's team there. Gives a target for MU cop other than himself. A few points for him to being Galz's partner.
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The rest of D2 is not great. While under pressure is jokey again. Very little analysis, if any. Posts enough not to be lurky, but doesn't really provide any substance.
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Liopoil was mostly on mcmc on D3. That's about it.
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Okay, I re-read lio for an alternative to Glooble. While he hasn't said anything in particular to make me think he's scum, he seems to have played a very safe game, not putting himself out there terribly much. Seeing as though the loud talkers all seem to be flipping Town, it seems likely that there is scum in this game who is trying not to be controversial. So while there's no one in particular who I think has a very high chance of being scum, I will Vote: liopoil since I think he has more chance of flipping scum than Glooble.
Of course, I'd rather lynch Glooble than no one, so if they're our only choices I'd be willing to hammer.
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Also, massclaim tomorrow seems like it would work well for me. Hopefully we can get some decent info from the Cops.
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Fine with mass-claim tomorrow.
I'm not really sure whether liopoil or Glooble is a better lynch. Munch/Dsell do you guys have an opinion between those 2?
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I have wanted a liopoil lynch almost two days now, since he jumped on the wagon that was built o me for no reason at a point that would make the wagon very viable. Many things people have been writing off as newbie I see as scummy, this may be because I was scum my first game and know I too advantage of the newbie excuse.
vote: liopoil I can go back to glooble if that's still who we want
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Unofficial:
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (3): ashersky, theorel, yuma (L-3)
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
liopoil (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot (L-3)
Not Voting (1): Dsell
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
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Would like to hear from Dsell. Interesting that neither lio nor Glooble are on the opposing wagon, but if they look like the only two we are likely to lynch, I suspect that will change, in which case one or the other will require two more.
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I would be in favor of massclaim. The only way that it hurts town is by letting scum have more informed nightkills. There aren't going to be very many more nightkills in this game though. If we can get a scum lynch as a result of it I think it will have been worth it. Right now it seems like I might be getting lynched, and that is not a scum lynch.
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I am very torn on Liopoil and Glooble, to be honest. I feel like Glooble is very very very hard to read, even though I've played scum with him before. And Liopoil is hard to read because he's new and I've never seen him play.
Liopoil has seemed slightly scummier, but that is basically what I would expect from a newbie vs a known lurker.
I suppose I prefer a Liopoil lynch.
I think Robz is town, though I confess that Munch made a couple sane-ish points in his case against Robz. However, I still think Munch is a lot scummier based on several things that he's said that have struck me very wrong.
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With 10 alive, I think it's worth waiting on a claim until tomorrow. We'll have another lynch flip + wagon to analyze, plus whatever happens at night. 3 nights of actions for folk to report will be better and easier to analyze for lies.
I do think we need to end this day. It's stalling, and that helps scum by having less content for the town to talk about in general, and makes it easy for scum to lurk because they can just say "but there's nothing to comment on."
Glooble: are you willing to vote liopoil
liopoil: are you willing to vote Glooble
TheMunch: are you willing to vote Glooble or liopoil
Dsell: are you willing to vote Glooble or liopoil
All of you, if the answer is yes, please respond with a vote.
I'm willing to switch, mcmcs is willing to switch, probably at least one other person is willing to switch. So with just one of you guys voting, we can get a lynch done and move this game along.
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I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
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Vote: Glooble
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I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
This is getting out of hand...
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I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
This is getting out of hand...
Agreed. If IRL V/LA is your issue, Robz, night will let you read to catch up. Make some contributions or don't try to lead town.
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I am very torn on Liopoil and Glooble, to be honest. I feel like Glooble is very very very hard to read, even though I've played scum with him before. And Liopoil is hard to read because he's new and I've never seen him play.
Liopoil has seemed slightly scummier, but that is basically what I would expect from a newbie vs a known lurker.
I suppose I prefer a Liopoil lynch.
I think Robz is town, though I confess that Munch made a couple sane-ish points in his case against Robz. However, I still think Munch is a lot scummier based on several things that he's said that have struck me very wrong.
and still no vote...
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Glooble is at L-2. L-1 to see if Glooble will ACTUALLY contribute, rather than saying "wait, don't lynch me yet, I'll contribute/claim/post" and then not having him do it, would be useful.
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I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
This is getting out of hand...
Agreed. If IRL V/LA is your issue, Robz, night will let you read to catch up. Make some contributions or don't try to lead town.
Disagree. Well to a point. That is I have no problem with the day continuing until Wednesday or so. I don't think we need to rush into anything... not that we are doing anything in a huge hurry here. But I do think it is worthwhile to allow Robz to form some reads and put them down. Again to a point... Real deadline is Friday. We aren't up against a deadline or need to worry about saving bankable time.
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I'll wait to see what Robz has to say before voting.
I suppose in the meantime I will Vote: TheMunch
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I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
This is getting out of hand...
Agreed. If IRL V/LA is your issue, Robz, night will let you read to catch up. Make some contributions or don't try to lead town.
Disagree. Well to a point. That is I have no problem with the day continuing until Wednesday or so. I don't think we need to rush into anything... not that we are doing anything in a huge hurry here. But I do think it is worthwhile to allow Robz to form some reads and put them down. Again to a point... Real deadline is Friday. We aren't up against a deadline or need to worry about saving bankable time.
My point was that endless days full of nothing are bad for town, because it makes re-reads harder and obfuscates facts.
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I agree. I swear I'm starting my liopoil re-read any hour now. If I fail to convince, I will switch to Glooble.
I would prefer if we don't close this thing before tonight. I want to look back over Liopoil and Glooble and really, really decide for myself who I think is scummier, and then make that case. I just haven't had the time yet, but I should tonight. Sorry for my endless delaying.
This is getting out of hand...
Agreed. If IRL V/LA is your issue, Robz, night will let you read to catch up. Make some contributions or don't try to lead town.
Disagree. Well to a point. That is I have no problem with the day continuing until Wednesday or so. I don't think we need to rush into anything... not that we are doing anything in a huge hurry here. But I do think it is worthwhile to allow Robz to form some reads and put them down. Again to a point... Real deadline is Friday. We aren't up against a deadline or need to worry about saving bankable time.
My point was that endless days full of nothing are bad for town, because it makes re-reads harder and obfuscates facts.
yes, to a point... but I think you are still thinking in a day1 mentality... where the stuff people put down (myself included) for the most part is garbage... reads based off nothing, votes based off little, over reactions, reactions to over reactions... etc, etc. But we are into day3. I say at this point anything that anyone puts down is worth rereading and could provide valuable later. Rereading later days isn't difficult. At least it isn't difficult enough to prevent the input of potentially valuable information.
For example... say Robz is scum. Just let's say... and he gets night killed tonight. I think a few more pages of talking--especially if it includes Robz solid reads and thoughts--is worth the little extra time it would take to reread. That is just one example--and I know one kinda on the extreme side--but still, a little difficulty rereading is worth having information that could be valuable. This however, isn't a super valuable topic and could make rereading harder... So I guess I am done talking about it.
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vote:liopoil
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Unofficial:
Glooble (3): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil (L-2)
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, Glooble (L-2)
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
What happened to our mod, anyway?
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Unofficial:
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil (L-2)
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, Glooble (L-3)
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
That's wrong, although based on the last unofficial. Someone is missing.
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I am voting for liopoil
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Unofficial Vote Count
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, yuma. liopoil {L-2}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (4): Robz888, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble {L-2}
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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I'll wait to see what Robz has to say before voting.
I suppose in the meantime I will Vote: TheMunch
Also what is this, do you have a reason for voting themunch, do you wish to see themunch lynched over liopoil/glooble, out of liopoil/glooble which one would you support more?
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That last one should be right. I started with the last one from the mod a few pages ago.
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Where is everyone, anyway?
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I'll wait to see what Robz has to say before voting.
I suppose in the meantime I will Vote: TheMunch
Also what is this, do you have a reason for voting themunch, do you wish to see themunch lynched over liopoil/glooble, out of liopoil/glooble which one would you support more?
I meant I'll wait for Robz to post his findings before choosing between Liopoil and Glooble. I realize that I don't think a Munch lynch is likely but I wanted to express my support for that lynch, yes. I have stated over and over since day 1 that he's my top scum read.
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Okay, re-read Glooble:
So scum!Glooble couldn't be paired with Jimm or ashersky, based on how hard he came after them immediately, I think.
I still like Glooble's sincere response to suspicion on Day 1:
When I left forum mafia, it was basically because I felt as a person who works a job where I don't have access to a computer, it was very hard for me to keep pace with all of you. I thought obtaining a smartphone would help with this, since I could keep up on my commute and maybe post on my lunchbreak, but the fact is, I just have to many commitments in my life to post here every day. This week especially I've had a lot going on.
This isn't to try and make excuses. This game is a commitment and I shouldn't have signed up for it without better evaluating my ability to commit to it. But here we are now, and I have no defense for how much I've been lurking, and I can't fault you for lynching me, but I am town, and I so have a role that could potentially be very useful, so for the sake of the town I'd just as soon not get lynched.
He says he has a "fairly strong town read on Galz" Day 1. Would Gloob say that about fellow scum Galz? I'm not sure that he would...
And then he buddies me a whole bunch. It's stronger than I remember. So, of course there's an argument to be made that scum SHOULD buddy me hard, especially if you're lurker!scum!Glooble, because I am pretty anti-you from the get go (you being Glooble at the moment).
To me, Glooble starts out on okay-ish territory (despite his lurking), with some pseudo-solid stuff against Jimm and ashersky, and then becomes less and less present with each passing day.
Now let me look at liopoil...
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On to liopoil:
The first thing that strikes me about him is that his posts are super agreeable. As in, he's almost always introducing his thought by expressing concurrence. It comes off making him look really guided:
Shraeye's argument against cuzz is very convincing, and I would vote for cuzz right away if it weren't for the possibility that shraeye is scum... still, even if shraeye is scum he probably thinks that cuzz is on the other scum team... okay, I'm convinced. Vote: Cuzz
PPE: oh cool! glooble voted too.
Same. Vote:
cuzz or jimmmm? I'll go figure out which one I'd rather lynch.
I agree with this completely. It's probably why I haven't posted as much as I should.
I believe Eevee. It doesn't seem to me that Jimmmm's argument is very strong. For this reason I suspect Jimmmm. I'm also thinking that he might not be hated after all. I pretty much agree with everything Glooble as said; so I'm going to join him.
Vote: Jimmmm
Well, it seems most people have town reads on robz, and I don't want to lynch eevee. So I'm going to hop on a different wagon. Vote: Mcmcsalot
You're really a sheep, liopoil. Maybe that's just how you are; we would know a lot better if this wasn't your first game. But it is. Anyway, this certainly looks like a scum-leaning tone to me. He's so non-abrasive and non-confrontational. I could see scum!liopoil consistently choosing the path of least resistance to divert suspicion.
But, he certainly posts more content than Glooble, and as the days go on, his substance begins to dwarf Glooble.
He uses smileys (point in favor of being scum).
And then he's not afraid to take me on, which I think is slightly on the townier side. I know there are scum somewhere placating me by just calling me obvtown and letting me continue on mislynch after mislynch unimpeded, I'm just not sure people are the scum doing that, since everyone except Munch and liopoil have expressed heavy town reads on me. But anyway, it's not liopoil, since he has chosen to suspect me at least moderately.
So... ultimately, I am really torn between the two of them. They are neck and neck, though for totally different reasons. I guess I do ultimately lean Vote: Glooble. His contributions are less than liopoil's, and they lessen as time goes on.
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Unofficial Vote Count 3.2
Glooble (5): ashersky, theorel, yuma. liopoil, Robz888 {L-1}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3):J immmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
And now someone can hammer.
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I'll wait to see what Robz has to say before voting.
I suppose in the meantime I will Vote: TheMunch
Also what is this, do you have a reason for voting themunch, do you wish to see themunch lynched over liopoil/glooble, out of liopoil/glooble which one would you support more?
I meant I'll wait for Robz to post his findings before choosing between Liopoil and Glooble. I realize that I don't think a Munch lynch is likely but I wanted to express my support for that lynch, yes. I have stated over and over since day 1 that he's my top scum read.
Dsell, Robz came in with his thoughts on Glooble and liopoil. Your turn.
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So I support the mass-claim tomorrow, but I am actually going to claim now. I thought about whether or not I should claim each day, and I've come to the conclusion it is most beneficial to town. My reasoning is being convinced scum is trying to hit scum, there was talk of my being scum today which means a nk could be thrown my way, I'm a bomb, I kill the person that kills me. I had previously believed the best use of my role was to take a nk as 1 for 1 is good for town, but at this point 2 scum or 1 scum no town is much better.
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So I support the mass-claim tomorrow, but I am actually going to claim now. I thought about whether or not I should claim each day, and I've come to the conclusion it is most beneficial to town. My reasoning is being convinced scum is trying to hit scum, there was talk of my being scum today which means a nk could be thrown my way, I'm a bomb, I kill the person that kills me. I had previously believed the best use of my role was to take a nk as 1 for 1 is good for town, but at this point 2 scum or 1 scum no town is much better.
Uh, I think you're logic there is off, and you claiming was not a good idea. Because scum are going to kill someone, and of all the people they could kill, it's best if they kill you. Imagine if both scum teams shot you: two dead scum! Now they'll just kill someone else instead.
I understand the instinct for survival, but that was probably a huge mistake.
Nevertheless, I believe your claim.
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No, that is what I thought origionally but scum killing me would result in one town death and one scum death, if I take both nk's then it's two scum one town dead. if scum nk's the other scum team the end result is two scum deaths. The last resul is the best and me claiming helps that happen.
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but it's not really worth debating now.
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but it's not really worth debating now.
He's wrong. Any strong PR fake claim was better in that situation to pull the NKs. Doc on D2 or something. Bomb is a suicide role, take one for the team, etc.
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I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but it's not really worth debating now.
He's wrong. Any strong PR fake claim was better in that situation to pull the NKs. Doc on D2 or something. Bomb is a suicide role, take one for the team, etc.
Its different with two scum teams, If scum can only hit town I agree I want to take one for the team, but seeing as scum can and want to hit scum, which we also want them to do. Me claiming helps town.
There are two Nk's, so here is what can possibly happen.
I am not one of the nk's
1) 2 town
2) 1 town 1 scum
3) 2 scum
I am one of the nk's
4) 2 town one scum
5) 1 town 2 scum
In order of best to worst for town, 3, 5, 2, 4, 1.
By claiming I take out options 4 and 5 which leaves the best scenario. If I claim a power role and draw the nk, it leaves us with options 4 and 5 only.
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Thing is #3 is very unlikely. This claim is however a very good claim from scum. It means you won't be lynched, and won't be NKed by the other team either. It is possible that he is scum and a bomb I believe.
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Yeah, 1 looks most likely too. I think a "guaranteed" scum kill is better than trying to save a Townie. I think the claim is mostly believable though. mcmc, if you are lynched, does that mean the person who hammers is killed?
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Yeah, 1 looks most likely too. I think a "guaranteed" scum kill is better than trying to save a Townie. I think the claim is mostly believable though. mcmc, if you are lynched, does that mean the person who hammers is killed?
My reading of the claim suggests "no", but I would like clarification on this as well.
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Yeah bro, you should have claimed to be one of the Cops, and just made up a fake investigation result. Then you would get killed, Bomb a scum, and we understand in the morning what you had done.
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Yeah bro, you should have claimed to be one of the Cops, and just made up a fake investigation result. Then you would get killed, Bomb a scum, and we understand in the morning what you had done.
Oh, what am I thinking, you'd get counterclaimed and that would be a disaster. Nevermind!
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Not a Cop though, that would have needlessly caused the real Cop to counterclaim and result in us lynching one of them.
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Post post edit: acknowledged by Robz.
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The person who hammers me does not get killed, it is only if I am targeted for a nightkill.
In this game so far, there has not been a single night with 2 town deaths. Also there are a diminishing number of town compared to scum which increases the likely hood of scum targeting scum with the nk as the game goes on.
I don't think me claiming a power role would be a guaranteed scum kill, last game I tried to draw a nk on me I got lynched for it.
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I guess you've made it ever so slightly likely that scum shoot each other by claiming. You've also made it more likely they kill the Cops, so I don't think this is a great tradeoff.
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Unfortunately, I do think mcmc is town now. This incorrect line of thinking spattered with survivalism is exactly what he did in ZMX, where he should have moved his vote to cause one town lynch instead of letting himself die, causing two town lynches. He said he was worried about being lynched the next day.
This claim did nothing to help town. I know mcmc thinks his little scenario thing makes sense, but it doesn't.
Sure, scum teams shooting each other is the best case scenario. That happens whether he claims bomb or not. I mean, we could all just claim and have them shoot each other right? No. Making it so they don't shoot a town you doesn't help everyone else, especially when you are passive utility at best. This is basically like claiming VT but worse, because they'll never kill you now. If you were a survivor, this is exactly the fake claim you do.
This is depressing. Can we please just end the day and get to losing?
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"Look at them, plotting and bickering while they pick each other off one by one. It's just ... fascinating," Weyoun says to Damar as they watch the latest holofeed from the recording devices they platned on Deep Space Nine. "Vorta sadly lack the capacity to be so duplicitous, even basic deception comes very hard to us."
"Weyoun, I don't think you give yourself enough credit," Damar says wryly, sipping his kanaar. "Some days I think you haven't stopped lying to me since we met."
"And some days, I don't think you've stopped drinking since we met," Weyoun replies. "It's only 10 in the morning, please do try to show some decorum."
Vote Count 3.3
Glooble (5): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888 {L-1}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
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arent we waiting for dsell to say what he thinks of glooble and liopoil.
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Munch hasn't posted for a while. I think he might potentially hammer.
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There's still no particular rush. What does everyone think of my reassessments of Glooble and liopoil? I went into it leaning liopoil and came out leaning Glooble by the slimmest of margins. I'd really like to know if people agree with my reasoning.
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You didn't present a particularly strong case on Glooble. I read it as "Seems Towny except for some buddying and decreasing participation", and then "liopoil seems slightly Townier". Do you have anything more solid on Glooble?
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I actually agree with ashersky on theory for once...
Although scum is happy to hit each other, they're just as happy to hit town that the other team isn't targeting. You decreased the chance that scum die at night (formerly it happened if either a team chose someone on the other team OR chose you), now it only happens if they choose the other team.
The problem is that you've increased the chance of an unlikely event slightly. I'm not computing the exact %.
If it was originally something like:
2 scum, 2%
2 scum, 1 town: ~3%
1 scum, 1 town: ~9%
1 scum, 2 town: ~12%
2 town: ~65%
Then it's now like:
2 scum, 2.5%
1 scum, 1 town: ~13%
2 town: ~85%
(Again, %-s are made up to make the point, but the idea is most of the %-chance of things you removed from the pool go to the worse-for-town scenarios.)
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You didn't present a particularly strong case on Glooble. I read it as "Seems Towny except for some buddying and decreasing participation", and then "liopoil seems slightly Townier". Do you have anything more solid on Glooble?
Well, I guess that's all it boils down to. My point was, liopoil seemed much more substantive (especailly as time went on) by comparison. Although he's a big time sheeper. But he didn't buddy me (which I count as a positive).
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Re: case on Glooble/liopoil. I've drawn similar conclusions to you. I started leaning liopoil but have ended up leaning Glooble after rereading and considering other people's cases/reads.
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Unfortunately, I do think mcmc is town now. This incorrect line of thinking spattered with survivalism is exactly what he did in ZMX, where he should have moved his vote to cause one town lynch instead of letting himself die, causing two town lynches. He said he was worried about being lynched the next day.
This claim did nothing to help town. I know mcmc thinks his little scenario thing makes sense, but it doesn't.
Sure, scum teams shooting each other is the best case scenario. That happens whether he claims bomb or not. I mean, we could all just claim and have them shoot each other right? No. Making it so they don't shoot a town you doesn't help everyone else, especially when you are passive utility at best. This is basically like claiming VT but worse, because they'll never kill you now. If you were a survivor, this is exactly the fake claim you do.
This is depressing. Can we please just end the day and get to losing?
Don't over react. Any intelligent scum wasn't going to NK mcmc anyways. Why? Because he wasnt' very likely to be a cop and scum wants to hit the cops. Why? Because Robz said he didn't target anyone Day1. Any cop would have investigated--and thereby targeted--someone Night 1. This means that mcmc is very unlikely to be the cop. I had already come to this conclusion, but hadn't said anything out loud for the sake that scum wouldn't figure it out. But odds are that they already had... so mcmc outing himself as bomb wasn't bad because he wasn't going to be a target from scum anyways.
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Robz makes interesting points. I think I can get behind a Glooble lynch. We lose almost nothing content-wise and he is just as likely to be scum as anybody. Robz makes a good point about how nobody except for Munch and Liopoil have accused him of being scummy whatsoever. Because I have a scumread on Munch, this is actually scumpoints for Liopoil in my book. He could be trying to make something of his buddy's accusations.
But for now I'm fine with sheeping the case on Glooble. He is at L-1...should I hammer now?
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I agree with Jimmmm that neither of these cases seem terribly strong and I wish we had a better option. Maybe Jimmm even IS that better option. I'd feel way better about lynching Munch. But I'm not really prepared to make those cases at the moment.
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I'm fine with a hammer.
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I'm fine with a hammer.
Yes. Hammer.
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Vote: Glooble
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Sisko looks at the remainder of his crew, assembled in his office.
"You wanted to see me?" he asks.
Dax steps forward.
"Sir, don't you think it's a little odd, that you assigned all these crew to look for Maquis, Mirror Universe interlopers, and Changelings, and no one's reported any findings?"
"And yet," says Garak, "People still keep turning up ... dead."
"And we don't mean to suppose anything, sir," says Miles. "But it does seem like there's one explanation that just makes sense."
"Well?" the Captain asks, unimpressed. "Out with it."
"I will say it," says Worf. "You never even assigned teams to look for them. You are a Maquis p'tagh yourself, or a Mirror Universe one, or a shapeshifter."
"If you'll come with me to the holding cell," says Eddington.
"You'll never take me alive!" yells Sisko, throwing his baseball in Eddington's face. "The Maquis will free our people! We'll make the Federation and the Cardassians pay for what they've done to us!"
He tries to run away, but there are too many bodies blocking him in that office, and pretty soon he finds himself with Worf's mek'leth buried in his back.
Glooble has been lynched. He was Benjamin Sisko, the Maquis-aligned 1-shot Roleblocker.
Vote Count 3.3
Glooble (6): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell {lynched}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Night Actions are do in 48 hours, at 6 p.m. February 7th.
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Thread Locked
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Without giving away specifics, the more 1-shots get used up the less time it takes to get these nights done, so I'm thinking about ending this one tonight at 6 instead of tomorrow at 6. If there are any objections to the early start, please PM me or contact me in your QT.
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As per request, will be opening this up ~midnight or 1 probably.
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Dawn breaks on Deep Space Nine. I mean, not really, because, Space, but the lights on the promenade go up in an automatic cycle, and the artificial lighting illuminates some bodies.
With Kira and Sisko gone, there is some confusion about who's in command of the Station, but no one particularly complains when Worf takes over. He's surveying his new command when he comes across the bodies.
The first is the young Ferengi ensign, Nog, whose body appears to have been thrown from the upper deck of the promenade.
But the second causes Worf to break into a Klingon mourning scream. His wife, Jadzia Dax, is dead!
But what's this? Another young Trill happens to be aboard the station? Luckily, the EMH is able to transplant the symbiote into a new host!
ANd a good thing too. Deep Space Nine can't really stand to lose many more crewmembers.
TheMunch has been nightkilled. He was Nog, the Maquis-aligned Neighbor.
Jadzia Dax has been nightkilled. She was the ? ? ?-aligned 1-shot deathproof. She has been reborn as Ezri Dax.
Not voting(8): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
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Are we still up for full claims?
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And do we believe it is 2 teams of 2?
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And who did TheMunch neighbor? Probably worth speaking up.
Also, props to me and Robz for calling the one-scum-in-the-Munshraeray-triumverate thing.
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I am so validated right now.
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And who did TheMunch neighbor? Probably worth speaking up.
Also, props to me and Robz for calling the one-scum-in-the-Munshraeray-triumverate thing.
My guess is that he was neighbors with Raerae, not a neighbor-"izer".
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So, we could actually be really close to winning here, if the only one left is Galz's partner.
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How do we feel about both cops claiming and comparing who was investigated? If they both investigated the same people, they can be ICs.
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Did a breezy read-through of Galz to try and figure out who is his partner.
Galz defended Jimm early.
Said nobody was really lurking.
Said mcmc was slightly scummy.
Late in Day 1, said the four scummiest people were mcmc, jimm, shraeye, and cuzz. He ended up voting for Cuzz.
Says Theorel is town, and reiterates scum reads on jimm and mcmcsalot.
That's everything from him.
I also looked to see who voted for him, and not one person ever did (except me, jokingly, in RVS).
The part I bolded is I think maybe a big clue, because half those people are dead town. Now, does Galz put his scummate in this group? I'd think he might. Jimm or mcmc. He mentions that pair again, too. There's a case to be made that one of these people would be his partner. Since I don't think it's mcmc because of the tracking, that would make me think of Jimm as a top suspect to be Galz's partner.
Of course, it could just be that Galz exempted his partner from placement on his own suspicion list.
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How do we feel about both cops claiming and comparing who was investigated? If they both investigated the same people, they can be ICs.
I think I'm in favor of massclaim now, since we probably only have 1 more scum anyway.
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Knowing who shot the deathproof would help, but it was most likely munch.
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In favor of massclaim.
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How many left alive now?
We aren't in mylo or lylo right?
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How many left alive now?
We aren't in mylo or lylo right?
We can't be. We still have 8 alive.
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With 15 total I think we are dealing with more than 4 scum.
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How would folks feel about lynching the maquis cop today? Guaranteed to not be maquis, already two of them dead, possibly MU.
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With 15 total I think we are dealing with more than 4 scum.
I think it depends how powerful the scum are. Though with a smaller number (like 4), we would expect to see a Jack of All Trades, maybe, or ninja or bus driver or something really good. So far, Galz probably clocks in as the strongest, at Rolecop, which isn't even so strong. So... you may very well be right.
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With 15 total I think we are dealing with more than 4 scum.
I think it depends how powerful the scum are. Though with a smaller number (like 4), we would expect to see a Jack of All Trades, maybe, or ninja or bus driver or something really good. So far, Galz probably clocks in as the strongest, at Rolecop, which isn't even so strong. So... you may very well be right.
Although death proof would be a strong scum role.
I think there are 3 of one and 2 of the other. That is my guess.
So either 1 maquis and 1 MU left or 2 MU left.
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How do we feel about both cops claiming and comparing who was investigated? If they both investigated the same people, they can be ICs.
Unless of course one of the Cops is scum. In which case we still have an IC if there's only one scum left.
I think this has been discussed, but Cops shouldn't claim what kind of Cop they are?
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How do we feel about both cops claiming and comparing who was investigated? If they both investigated the same people, they can be ICs.
Unless of course one of the Cops is scum. In which case we still have an IC if there's only one scum left.
I think this has been discussed, but Cops shouldn't claim what kind of Cop they are?
That could work. Both cops claim and give targets. Any that match are cleared.
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Yeah, almost. I suppose even if there are multiple scum left it's unlikely there are any teammates left.
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Yeah, almost. I suppose even if there are multiple scum left it's unlikely there are any teammates left.
2 MU, possibly.
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Yeah, almost. I suppose even if there are multiple scum left it's unlikely there are any teammates left.
2 MU, possibly.
Oh but even then one couldn't be the MU Cop so if the other Cop investigated one of them they'd have caught them.
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So I think you're right.
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8 alive with suspected at most 2 scum.
Scum seem a little weak for there to be only 1 left, but then multi-ball is so random that there could very well only be one. I mean compare the situation we're in with the one where scum consistently hits town instead of scum...If scum weren't hitting scum (just straight converting kills to townies) we'd be at 5-3, which is practically lylo in multi-ball. So, I'm not convinced there must be 2 left, but it seems reasonable enough.
I'm for the mass claim. How do we want to handle it?
Do we want the cops to claim, along with any living targets, first, then if there's a counter-claim they can complete their claim? (This would avoid giving away cop-type based on who was investigated). Then we go from there to finish a claim?
Do we want to have everyone give a list of preferred claim-order, and work through the claims based on that?
Or
Do we want to have someone direct the claims? (I'm not sure I'm confident enough in anyone's townitude, except my own, at this point to have them direct the claims).
I mean the cop claims are about the only info we really get from a mass claim anyways right? Role not attached to alignment for everyone else and all that.
I think I like the idea that cops claim along with any living targets, and we work forward from there, including whether we even want to complete a full mass-claim from everyone.
I don't think we should lynch cops today. We should save the cop-lynches till later, if we lynch town scum will probably kill their respective cops...so if a Maquis is still alive we'll know whether the Maquis-cop is MU after the NKs. If no Maquis are still alive, then we can treat the Maquis-cop as a complete unknown alignment.
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I think the best way to do a mass claim if we are headed down that route is to have both cops claim, along with their investigations. From there those two cops work together to figure out the ordering for a mass claim. I am willing to bet that at least one of the cops is town and will be able to push toward town's agenda. Both cops will need to come to a consensus on who should claim and when. Once they reach that consensus we can then move forward with the mass claim.
Any players cleared from the cop investigations should probably be placed at the end of the mass claim list. but I'll leave that up to the cops to hash out in for themselves.
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The part I bolded is I think maybe a big clue, because half those people are dead town. Now, does Galz put his scummate in this group? I'd think he might. Jimm or mcmc. He mentions that pair again, too. There's a case to be made that one of these people would be his partner. Since I don't think it's mcmc because of the tracking, that would make me think of Jimm as a top suspect to be Galz's partner.
Glad you noticed this as well. I had posted about it way earlier--and so had Jimmmm himself day2 in what I thought was a super overly defensive reaction--those two things were basically the lynchpin of my case on Jimmmm from day3.
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I think the best way to do a mass claim if we are headed down that route is to have both cops claim, along with their investigations. From there those two cops work together to figure out the ordering for a mass claim. I am willing to bet that at least one of the cops is town and will be able to push toward town's agenda. Both cops will need to come to a consensus on who should claim and when. Once they reach that consensus we can then move forward with the mass claim.
Any players cleared from the cop investigations should probably be placed at the end of the mass claim list. but I'll leave that up to the cops to hash out in for themselves.
Okay, I agree with that. It's about what I felt, I'm fine with it, so let's get this show on the road.
I'm a cop, of the living players I have investigated Jimmmmm and liopoil both are innocent from my perspective.
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I think the best way to do a mass claim if we are headed down that route is to have both cops claim, along with their investigations. From there those two cops work together to figure out the ordering for a mass claim. I am willing to bet that at least one of the cops is town and will be able to push toward town's agenda. Both cops will need to come to a consensus on who should claim and when. Once they reach that consensus we can then move forward with the mass claim.
Any players cleared from the cop investigations should probably be placed at the end of the mass claim list. but I'll leave that up to the cops to hash out in for themselves.
Okay, I agree with that. It's about what I felt, I'm fine with it, so let's get this show on the road.
I'm a cop, of the living players I have investigated Jimmmmm and liopoil both are innocent from my perspective.
Mostly for completion's sake, can you say which night you investigated which player and what dead player you investigated?
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As I stated before, I think it is best to save that information until later in order that we will not know which cop is which due to any investigations of Glooble/Munch which may have happened day1/2. If either myself or the other cop investigated those players it would immediately expose which cop is which.
If players generally agree that such information would be better to have immediately, then I'm fine to claim it...but that's going to take more consensus than the claim took.
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I agree that theorel shouldn't give any more information. I mean, obviously if he thinks it'll help us then yeah, but looks like it could potentially help scum more. I guess the other cop should claim next?
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As I stated before, I think it is best to save that information until later in order that we will not know which cop is which due to any investigations of Glooble/Munch which may have happened day1/2. If either myself or the other cop investigated those players it would immediately expose which cop is which.
If players generally agree that such information would be better to have immediately, then I'm fine to claim it...but that's going to take more consensus than the claim took.
gotcha... didn't think of the glooble/munch/galz implications. I was mostly thinking along the lines of dealing with a counter cop claim. Yeah, save that info for later.
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In fact, might have been better for the Cops to just claim Cop and not give any results at first, to make it harder for a counter-claim. But I don't think a counter-claim is particularly likely, so it doesn't matter.
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I'd like the other cop to claim now, and then I will claim.
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I'd like the other cop to claim.
I think we might want people that aren't the cop to claim "not-cop" (assuming they think the cop should claim). At this point, I'm just wondering if the cop is yuma, Jimmmmm, DSell, or ash waiting for further confirmation, or if it's scum and they're not going to claim since they don't want to clear any townies.
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I have a bunch of thoughts about stuff, but it's probably best to hold them back until we get that other cop claim. Please claim, pal.
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I am not the cop. If everyone posts and the cop has not claimed we should assume that the cop is scum. There is no reason for a town cop not to claim.
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This is most likely unnecessary but obviously I am not the cop, I already claimed.
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Yeah, the cop is yuma, Jimm, Dsell, or ash.
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ash, Yuma, dsell, and jimmm are the only four left. Theorel, mcmc, and robz have already claimed, and I am going to claim very soon. I suppose mcmc or robz could be a scum cop who lied, but that seems very unlikely.
PPE: robz beat me to it.
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Theorel is confirmed town. I investigated him, so I know he isn't the scum I look for, and he's the other cop, so he can't be the scum he looks for.
Unless he's fake claiming, which is so very highly unlikely (scum can't afford a countered fake claim because 1 for 1 trade is way better for town).
Theo should lead the rest of the claiming, since you cannot be sure I am station. I am station, though.
Do you need my other targets?
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Theorel can't be fakeclaiming. if there is someone who isn't ashersky or theorel who is a cop they would claim and that would be it. So theorel is confirmed town. If you targeted any other living player you should probably claim that.
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I am a neighbor. munch and raerae were my neighbors, but they are dead now. We are confirmed non-members of the mirror-universe scumteam. So I am just a VT with access to the things munch and raerae said, and a place to make notes to myself at night.
I think I have similar IC status to theorel now. A ton of things would have to be true for it to be possible that I am scum.
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Interesting. Well, I doubt we'll have a fake claim.
So, I'm trying to decide if there is any utility or possibility that you guys keep which cops you are a secret.
The problem with that is, okay, Jimm and liopoil, if either is scum, already knows which Cop theorel is and which Cop ashersky is. (And I do think it's decently likely one of them is scum, they are my top suspects at this point--Jimm to be Galz's partner, and liopoil to Glooble/Munch's partner. Of course, those things couldn't both be true.)
So, that would mean there's actually little utility to keeping secrets from town. Scum has that info.
However, any scum who is not Jimm/liopoil has no idea which cop they should target, which is a good thing.
However however, let's say either ash or theorel is a scum cop (it seems like it's impossible theorel is, so just ash, I guess). If we force them to be on the record about which cop is which, well, that puts the scum cop in a tough position, because the other scum team will surely kill him. Which is good for us... we'd like to exterminate one of the scum teams (if both still have living members), and we'd like a scum kill to hit scum rather than town, even if that scum is also a cop.
So those are my thoughts.
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I am a neighbor. munch and raerae were my neighbors, but they are dead now. We are confirmed non-members of the mirror-universe scumteam. So I am just a VT with access to the things munch and raerae said, and a place to make notes to myself at night.
I think I have similar IC status to theorel now. A ton of things would have to be true for it to be possible that I am scum.
You absolutely are not. All the people who could have confirmed this are dead. Even if you were a neighbor, you could be a maquis, which even makes some sense, it could explain raerae's night 1 death (she was neighbors with double scum!), and I think you decently likely to be Glooble's partner anyway based on the interactioh between you two yesterday.
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oh, and my flavor name is Rom. I have big ears.
Robz, here's why I think it is obvious:
For me to be on the MU scumteam:
I would have to either not be a neighbor, or have lied about the non-member thing. to fakeclaim being a neighbor would be silly, because I would have a good chance of being counterclaimed. theorel would also have to be the maquis cop. I don't have proof for the non-member thing, but munch being 100% against my lynch would make sense, because he knew 100% that I was town once galzria was NKed.
For me to be on the maquis scumteam:
I would have had to seriously bus glooble. I was on his wagon. there would have to actually be a third member of the team, which I am starting to think is unlikely. Theorel would have to be the MU cop.
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I guess it isn't the same level of proof, but it just seems like the chances are pretty slim.
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Uh, okay, maybe that is compelling, I guess. I'm starting to confuse myself. Hold on.
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oh, and my flavor name is Rom. I have big ears.
Robz, here's why I think it is obvious:
For me to be on the MU scumteam:
I would have to either not be a neighbor, or have lied about the non-member thing. to fakeclaim being a neighbor would be silly, because I would have a good chance of being counterclaimed. theorel would also have to be the maquis cop. I don't have proof for the non-member thing, but munch being 100% against my lynch would make sense, because he knew 100% that I was town once galzria was NKed.
For me to be on the maquis scumteam:
I would have had to seriously bus glooble. I was on his wagon. there would have to actually be a third member of the team, which I am starting to think is unlikely. Theorel would have to be the MU cop.
Did you seriously bus Glooble? I remember you guys being really reluctant to turn on each other, despite being the two main lynch choices yesterday. And it seems like one reason that was is its confusing for you whether you should turn on each other when it's going to be a loss for your team anyway.
The other thing... I guess makes sense. I mean, theorel could (and possibly should) shed some light here with his cop claim.
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I think I see what you're saying, though.
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yes, I was not exactly making a case on glooble, but I did put my vote on him. If I was scum with glooble I probably would have tried to start a case on someone else. both of us voting for each other does not help us.
I agree that we should at least consider ash and theorel claiming everything.
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There was no bus. Go look at the votes. I pressed, they both voted each other as a matter of survival.
Lio is not cleared.
I am Worf, btw. Awesomeness.
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There was no bus. Go look at the votes. I pressed, they both voted each other as a matter of survival.
Lio is not cleared.
I am Worf, btw. Awesomeness.
Yeah, that's closer to my memory of how things went.
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Also ready to vote lio today and jimmmmm tomorrow.
Lio especially based on his posts on this page.
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I guess I wasn't sure exactly what counted as a bus. I'm just having trouble seeing how both of us voting for each other could help us if we were on a team together.
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Actually, if you look at things, liopoil hastily voted for Glooble (without explanation) only when Glooble's lynch was already guaranteed. Glooble's dying move was to put his vote on liopoil (again without explanation), which is where it should be in order to disassociate himself from liopoil, if liopoil is indeed his partner.
It looks to me like a very, very lazy attempt at a last minute bus. Liopoil's comments indicate to me only that he is surprised it wasn't convincing.
I can comfortably do this, unless I hear a compelling reason from the cops why I am wrong.
Vote: liopoil
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Actually, if you look at things, liopoil hastily voted for Glooble (without explanation) only when Glooble's lynch was already guaranteed. Glooble's dying move was to put his vote on liopoil (again without explanation), which is where it should be in order to disassociate himself from liopoil, if liopoil is indeed his partner.
It looks to me like a very, very lazy attempt at a last minute bus. Liopoil's comments indicate to me only that he is surprised it wasn't convincing.
I can comfortably do this, unless I hear a compelling reason from the cops why I am wrong.
Vote: liopoil
Not true. When I voted glooble we were both at L-3, and glooble's vote put us both at L-2. They were both in response to ashersky's question about if we were willing to vote for each other.
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You both waited until it was a guarantee that one of you would be lynched. You both then put your votes in the most logical places (given you are scum together) without explanation.
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Robz, are you suggesting we lynch Liopoil before massclaiming?
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Well this is all very interesting. Robz, how sure are you that lio and I aren't on the other team than you suspect? I think if we're going down this line of reasoning there's no point holding on to the which-Cop-is-which info, since if theorel supports lynching one of me and lio then it will seem pretty obvious.
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I hope not. I think voting right now is a bad idea.
It wasn't necessarily guaranteed that one of us would be lynched. even if it was we certainly would have started a case on someone else before it got to that state. In fact, I think there might have been a point where we could have hammered ashersky if we were a scumteam.
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I think I see the lio/Glooble argument. When I have time I'll have to go back and have another look. However I'm not sure I like the assumption that one of me and lio must be scum. From my point of view, that's pretty close to betting the game on lio being scum.
I think no one else should claim until theo gets back to lead it.
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Actually, if you look at things, liopoil hastily voted for Glooble (without explanation) only when Glooble's lynch was already guaranteed. Glooble's dying move was to put his vote on liopoil (again without explanation), which is where it should be in order to disassociate himself from liopoil, if liopoil is indeed his partner.
It looks to me like a very, very lazy attempt at a last minute bus. Liopoil's comments indicate to me only that he is surprised it wasn't convincing.
I can comfortably do this, unless I hear a compelling reason from the cops why I am wrong.
Vote: liopoil
More than that, I believe there is this:
TheMunch was Glooble's partner, right? He knew Glooble was scum, and was possibly going to be lynched. The only other viable lynch was liopoil. Why didn't TheMunch join that wagon? Why didn't he argue that liopoil was scummy? I mean, he was #1 or #2 on everyone's list for lynching yesterday anyway, so it would have been easy to help that out. It wouldn't have looked that scummy to help kill liopoil if he was town.
Unless liopoil is the third Maquis. More scummy stuff on him to come, but for now:
vote: liopoil
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Well this is all very interesting. Robz, how sure are you that lio and I aren't on the other team than you suspect? I think if we're going down this line of reasoning there's no point holding on to the which-Cop-is-which info, since if theorel supports lynching one of me and lio then it will seem pretty obvious.
Well, my case on liopoil relies on him being Glooble's partner (relating to how he and Glooble interacted at the end of Day 3), while my case on you relies on your being Galz's partner (based on Galz's list that both I and yuma have brought up). If either of you two were on the other team, I suppose it's possible, but my evidence doesn't indicate that.
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Robz, are you suggesting we lynch Liopoil before massclaiming?
I was not suggesting that. I think the case against liopoil is solid enough, though, that unless theorel shuts it down I wouldn't be uncomfortable moving ahead while leaving the massclaim unfinished...
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I'm going to re-read my QT now and tell you everything raerae and munch said. here is what I think was the most important thing. Munch said this (paraphrased because I don't think I'm allowed to quote exactly):
"I have a slight scumread on Jimmmmm right now but I couldn't tell you why."
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Actually, if you look at things, liopoil hastily voted for Glooble (without explanation) only when Glooble's lynch was already guaranteed. Glooble's dying move was to put his vote on liopoil (again without explanation), which is where it should be in order to disassociate himself from liopoil, if liopoil is indeed his partner.
It looks to me like a very, very lazy attempt at a last minute bus. Liopoil's comments indicate to me only that he is surprised it wasn't convincing.
I can comfortably do this, unless I hear a compelling reason from the cops why I am wrong.
Vote: liopoil
More than that, I believe there is this:
TheMunch was Glooble's partner, right? He knew Glooble was scum, and was possibly going to be lynched. The only other viable lynch was liopoil. Why didn't TheMunch join that wagon? Why didn't he argue that liopoil was scummy? I mean, he was #1 or #2 on everyone's list for lynching yesterday anyway, so it would have been easy to help that out. It wouldn't have looked that scummy to help kill liopoil if he was town.
Unless liopoil is the third Maquis. More scummy stuff on him to come, but for now:
vote: liopoil
Yeah, that too. Much wouldn't join either wagon, which really doesn't make sense if Glooble was his partner but liopoil was not.
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I'm going to re-read my QT now and tell you everything raerae and munch said. here is what I think was the most important thing. Munch said this (paraphrased because I don't think I'm allowed to quote exactly):
"I have a slight scumread on Jimmmmm right now but I couldn't tell you why."
Okay, but let's all remember that this was scum!Munch talking to a group of people that included town!raerae (or other-alignment!raerae, from Munch's perspective). So I'm not sure he'd state his true opinions here.
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And if you're just trying to prove your a neighbor... you could be taking Munch's quotes straight out of your scum qt with him.
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Sorry to mega shut you down, lio, but this is far and away the most solid case so far this game.
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guys, seriously, it isn't a good idea to vote until everyone's claimed and stuff.
Munch didn't vote for me because I'm his neighbor! he would be able to mislead me anymore! and he knew that I wasn't on the other team. Actually, the real reason was because he was not around. At the time of the deadline he hadn't posted in over three days. In the QT he expressed his frustration by saying he had "so much IRL shit", and was disappointed that the day ended while he was gone."
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that quote was from last night, after raerae died.
oh please, don't try to dispute that I might not be a neighbor... that's even less likely than me being scum!
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that quote was from last night, after raerae died.
oh please, don't try to dispute that I might not be a neighbor... that's even less likely than me being scum!
???
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look, if I wasn't a neighbor why would I claim neighbor???
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I still support lynching liopoil I have had a scum read and wanted him lynched for sooo long. My original case while weak (it had to do with his jumping on a wagon on me at a time I felt was very scummy) has grown day after day and I am constantly shocked that his lynch does not pick up more traction.
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Here are quotes of lio being scummy from page 85 of this game.
I'd like the other cop to claim now, and then I will claim.
No, you do not get to direct town. You were top or second top scum read yesterday, nothing has happened to clear you.
I am not the cop. If everyone posts and the cop has not claimed we should assume that the cop is scum. There is no reason for a town cop not to claim.
A town cop could wait until the end of the claiming to claim, perhaps not with their first post of the day.
I am a neighbor. munch and raerae were my neighbors, but they are dead now. We are confirmed non-members of the mirror-universe scumteam. So I am just a VT with access to the things munch and raerae said, and a place to make notes to myself at night.
I think I have similar IC status to theorel now. A ton of things would have to be true for it to be possible that I am scum.
I bolded the parts of this quote I think are possibly fake. As mentioned, your logic is faulty. You are by no means anything close to an IC. You cannot assign yourself that sort of status. It gets assigned to you. A neighborhood with all three teams would be distinctly possible (and fun), and a "you are all not MU" thing would be possible but NOT confirmable until you are dead.
Also, if you were neighbors for Munch for days, why did you have no opinions on the guy IN GAME? I mean, he was scum. He said things in the QT that should have helped you form an opinion. You had none.
One thing in your favor here is that if you are partners with Munch/Glooble, and you were both neighbors, that's a bit of overkill on the QTs. But random rolling, which is what I assume Jo would do, can do that sometimes.
For me to be on the MU scumteam:
I would have to either not be a neighbor, or have lied about the non-member thing. to fakeclaim being a neighbor would be silly, because I would have a good chance of being counterclaimed. theorel would also have to be the maquis cop. I don't have proof for the non-member thing, but munch being 100% against my lynch would make sense, because he knew 100% that I was town once galzria was NKed.
For me to be on the maquis scumteam:
I would have had to seriously bus glooble. I was on his wagon. there would have to actually be a third member of the team, which I am starting to think is unlikely. Theorel would have to be the MU cop.
Your arguments make no sense. You chose to claim a role that is almost impossible to counterclaim now, given 2 neighbors are dead. The likelihood of 4 neighbors in a game this size? And how did Munch know you were town when Galz got killed?
For the maquis argument, you did not bus Glooble. You definitely didn't "seriously bus" Glooble. You may no arguments about him other than "him not me!!" That's not bussing. At all. A third member is definitely possible, and I think it's a 3-man and a 2-man.
yes, I was not exactly making a case on glooble, but I did put my vote on him. If I was scum with glooble I probably would have tried to start a case on someone else. both of us voting for each other does not help us.
I agree that we should at least consider ash and theorel claiming everything.
You are the only one cop fishing here.
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Living:
1. ashersky - Cop
2. Robz - Tracker
3. yuma -
9. liopoil - Half cleared
10. mcmcsalot - bomb
11. Jimmmmm - Half cleared
12. theorel - Confirmed Town Cop
14. Dsell
Is this right?
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Living:
1. ashersky - Cop
2. Robz - Tracker
3. yuma -
9. liopoil - Neighbor - Half cleared
10. mcmcsalot - bomb
11. Jimmmmm - Half cleared
12. theorel - Confirmed Town Cop
14. Dsell
Is this right?
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look, if I wasn't a neighbor why would I claim neighbor???
I'm not even saying your not a neighbor, just that there's no evidence you are a neighbor. And if you are Munch's buddy, it would have been perfectly easy for you to claim neighbor. How do I know Munch didn't put a link to his neighbor qt directly into the scum qt? Could be Glooble and whoever else (possibly you) knows everything that went on there.
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Living:
1. ashersky - Cop
2. Robz - Tracker
3. yuma -
9. liopoil - Half cleared
10. mcmcsalot - bomb
11. Jimmmmm - Half cleared
12. theorel - Confirmed Town Cop
14. Dsell
Is this right?
Correct.
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Aslo, one of the above was one-shot bulletproof.
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Aslo, one of the above was one-shot bulletproof.
And if we know who that person is, we can rule them out as... Galz's buddy, right? Because Galz's buddy (or buddies) shot Munch.
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Aslo, one of the above was one-shot bulletproof.
One-shot Deathproof, actually. I don't think the lynch would have worked either.
Who would be Maquis's most likely target?
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Aslo, one of the above was one-shot bulletproof.
And if we know who that person is, we can rule them out as... Galz's buddy, right? Because Galz's buddy (or buddies) shot Munch.
Wait, no, I got that backward.
Galzbuddy shot Munch. Munchbuddy shot BP guy. So BP guy can't be Munch's fellow scum.
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Also, I think scum is absolutely done scumhunting at this point and will push for mislynches of town.
They'll killed whoever they think is scum at night. They need town to be smaller at this point.
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Aslo, one of the above was one-shot bulletproof.
And if we know who that person is, we can rule them out as... Galz's buddy, right? Because Galz's buddy (or buddies) shot Munch.
Wait, no, I got that backward.
Galzbuddy shot Munch. Munchbuddy shot BP guy. So BP guy can't be Munch's fellow scum.
Right. Munchbuddy, or Munch, shot Deathproof.
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Theorel, do not waste your investigation on me. I agree today to be the lynch tomorrow if you haven't found scum.
I am station-aligned, but I think we're far enough ahead that we can afford to mislynch me tomorrow. As I've agreed to be the lynch for tomorrow if you don't catch scum tonight, I think that's fair enough to have you investigate someone else.
I think Jimmmmm or Robz (scum tracker works) make the most sense to be Galz's partner(s).
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Theorel, do not waste your investigation on me. I agree today to be the lynch tomorrow if you haven't found scum.
I am station-aligned, but I think we're far enough ahead that we can afford to mislynch me tomorrow. As I've agreed to be the lynch for tomorrow if you don't catch scum tonight, I think that's fair enough to have you investigate someone else.
I think Jimmmmm or Robz (scum tracker works) make the most sense to be Galz's partner(s).
That said, I've had a town read on Robz all game.
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Are we continuing the mass claim? Are the cops claiming? I'm actively unsure what's best. But very confident in the liopoil lynch.
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Well, if we do lynch liopoil, we will know which cop is which anyway.
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Are we continuing the mass claim? Are the cops claiming? I'm actively unsure what's best. But very confident in the liopoil lynch.
As a cop, I say no. If lio is scum, you'll all know anyway, and that's fine, because we caught scum through mad scumhunting.
Like I said, if Theo doesn't catch scum tonight with his investigation, and you all think I'm scum, you can mislynch me and town will still be in great shape. If one or both of us don't die tonight anyway.
Anyone with protection powers, protect Theo. He's the confirmed town one. Unless you are JK...then JK me?
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do we want dsell and yuma to claim?
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do we want dsell and yuma to claim?
I guess? Do we really care? If they have useful town powers, I say let them stay silent. If they are scum, we'll get them anyway.
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That's not exactly directing town is it? It's stating that I am going to claim after the other cop claims. We had already decided that the cops should claim...
I clearly meant once everyone claims not-cop.
I thought it was really obvious that I pretty much HAD to be town. It actually says in my PM that we are all confirmed non-members of the mirror-universe to each other. You are right that it is not confirmable. However it does explain munch's humongous town read on me. He knew I was town. Scum do not generally say that they are 100% against the lynch of their partner, even though they are. I had a townread on munch in game.
it would likely be counterclaimed! If I claimed neighbor when I wasn't then the real remaining neighbor would claim and say that I was not part of the neighborhood.
galz being killed confirmed the existence of the MU. since munch was maquis and we were confirmed non-members of the MU he knew I had to be town.
the odds of there being a third maquis is less than 50-50. Assuming there are 4-5 scum. if there is 5 then there is 50% chance of the maquis being the team with three. Factor in the chance that there is only 4 and it is less than 50.
I thought bussing was contributing to your partners lynch. I guess that isn't what it is. Regardless, as I have said, if I was partners with glooble I would have hopped on the ashersky wagon early in D3 and then later when the wagon went away I would try to push a lynch on someone else.
I am not! robz first suggested it. Plus if I am scum I already know which cop theorel is, and therefore ash as well. Plus I would very much like it if theorel was the maquis cop :P
PPE: 17. dang it is busy...
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I can't promise I'll be able to check in for the rest of the evening, so if you have a lynch you may have a long twilight ahead of you.
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could we get a vote count?
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am I allowed to give you guys the QT? probably not I assume. especially because joth unlocked it for me to talk to myself, and I wouldn't be talking to myself if other people in the game can see it.
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it would likely be counterclaimed! If I claimed neighbor when I wasn't then the real remaining neighbor would claim and say that I was not part of the neighborhood.
If you are Munch's partner--which is what I suspect--you know the exact composition of the neighborhood, so you would know that you risk no counterclaim.
If you're Munch's partner... it doesn't matter whether you're a neighbor or not. I assume Munch shared the neighborhood info with his fellow scum to the extent that Glooble and whoever else were effectively part of the neighborhood (that goes double if he was permitted to post the qt link).
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am I allowed to give you guys the QT? probably not I assume. especially because joth unlocked it for me to talk to myself, and I wouldn't be talking to myself if other people in the game can see it.
Ask Jo.
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You have to PM him in private. And then tell us (without quoting!) what he said.
Although I assume if you were actually one of thw neighbors you would have cleared this with him 5 seconds into day 1.
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This is true, but in that case there would have to be only two people in the neighborhood. I find this unlikely in a 15 player game.
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Munch's reads as of last night. Of course, these can't necessarily be trusted:
"Ash/Robz/Mcmc - scum reads. Some subset of them.
You're a town read, Yuma is a town read. Dsell is interesting but I guess I put him at town. Theroel is someone I'm having hard time reading cause hes mostly theory so neutral. Jimmm is slight scum read for me right now but I couldn't tell you why.
Dsell has gotten away with way less contribution this game. At least my reads are known for the most part if I die tonight."
The main things that raerae said:
"Also, thoughts on this, Jimmmmmm claimed he'd hammer twice and didn't once then had to be yelled into it. Fake hesitation to seem more towny after the flip or sincere hesitation at not being truly sold on the lynch?Any or all of us could still be scum, right? Lio, if it's you, super props because you are towntastic right now. You've done great and only confused me once or twice then quickly cleared up the confusion with either a f/u post or an answer to a question somebody else posted.
It is a bummer cuzz was town but dang, that man was shady! I probably would have been off him and back to Jimmmmmm if he'd just answered my damn question and given a read or two right away instead of avoiding it all together. Ugh, oh well, what's done is done and I think, of the three of us, I'm probably looking most scummy right now.I have no idea what could even be salvaged from that. I am concerned that ash was willing to let his strongest scumread survive the day without too much of a fuss. Still kind of think he's town regardless of his flip flopping at the end of the day but if I end up dead tomorrow I'd be suspicious of him as either vig (if that's possible) or SK.
Copied and pasted from the QT. Joth said I could.
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Okay, well you've certainly proved you have access to raerae's neighbor thoughts. I don't think that tells us very much about your alignment, though.
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You know, I'm forgetting that it has to be Galz's team, not Munch's team, that shot raerae. Because Munch's team definitely shot Galz (barring, weird, weird edge cases relating to crazy powers).
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Not that that really matters, but it can't be the case that like Munch and liopoil killed raerae because she was in a neighborhood with them.
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I'm sure that munch could have NKed me if he wanted to.
Oh, and this supports me not being MU. if I was MU then I shot munch and raerae. pretty dumb huh?
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joth says I can't post the link.
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I'm sure that munch could have NKed me if he wanted to.
Oh, and this supports me not being MU. if I was MU then I shot munch and raerae. pretty dumb huh?
Well, I think the case suggestes you are maquis, not MU. But I don't think it's particularly stupid to kill off your co-neighbors even if you are mu. I guess you risk munch coming after you on day 2?
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I'm sure that munch could have NKed me if he wanted to.
Oh, and this supports me not being MU. if I was MU then I shot munch and raerae. pretty dumb huh?
We're arguing that you are Maquis, Munch and Glooble's partner.
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there is a less than 25% chance that it is even POSSIBLE for me to be maquis. 50-50 chance that theorel is maquis cop. as I showed before, less that 50-50 chance that there is a third maquis. put those together and you get less than 25% chance of it being possible that I am scum.
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obviously I'm the MU cop, since ash is voting for liopoil as Maquis.
I think liopoil is a bad lynch idea for today...I'll post more this evening.
Good claim order:
yuma
Dsell
Jimmmm
Then ash should claim his targets.
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I don't understand why ash voting for me makes you the MU cop, but anyway that brings it down to less than 50% chance of it being possible that I'm scum. This is better than every other player in the game except jimmmmm and theorel.
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I don't understand why ash voting for me makes you the MU cop, but anyway that brings it down to less than 50% chance of it being possible that I'm scum. This is better than every other player in the game except jimmmmm and theorel.
Because Theo cleared you of his scum investigations. And I said I think you are Maquis based on our cases.
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oh, and you knew which cop theorel is... got it
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obviously I'm the MU cop, since ash is voting for liopoil as Maquis.
I think liopoil is a bad lynch idea for today...I'll post more this evening.
Good claim order:
yuma
Dsell
Jimmmm
Then ash should claim his targets.
I guess I understand Theo's concern. It's going to be "easier" to catch MU than Maquis at this point. But I think my case on lio is strong.
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The case on lio is super strong.
However, if theorel says Jimm isn't MU... I tend to suspect mcmcsalot the most of being MU. Of course this flies in the face of the only theory I've had so far--which is that mcmc is unlikely to be Galzria's partner.
There's no longer any reason for the claim to not proceed, also. Since we know which cop is which, we might as well know ash's targets so far in case he dies tonight.
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The case on lio is super strong.
However, if theorel says Jimm isn't MU... I tend to suspect mcmcsalot the most of being MU. Of course this flies in the face of the only theory I've had so far--which is that mcmc is unlikely to be Galzria's partner.
There's no longer any reason for the claim to not proceed, also. Since we know which cop is which, we might as well know ash's targets so far in case he dies tonight.
Unforunately, no one is left alive. Here's my list, and reasoning.
Night 1: raerae. Not Maqius. Reason: my top scum read (as you all well knew)
Night 2: Theorel. Not Maqius. Reason: top town read for a number of folks, and I never trust that.
Night 3: TheMunch. Maquis. (Finally got one right! And he died.) Reason: I was pretty certain Glooble's partner had to be off-wagon. I was looking at the lio wagon originally, but really felt that TheMunch was odd for not contributing, not taking a stand, and for some reason NOT joining the lio wagon. I figured it was to gain the "well, if I was Glooble's partner, I would have tried to get lio lynched" argument.
After Night 2, I was beginning to think we had no Maquis in the game. So I was happy when Glooble flipped Maquis.
So, feel free to now say "ash could be the MU-aligned Maquis cop, since he's claiming to have targetted dead people."
I'm not, but understand that argument. Like I also said, I'm willing to be tomorrow's pre-determined lynch. It's a waste of Theo's power to check me.
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I am a 1-shot Lightning Rod. I have not yet used my power because I think it is a negative utility to town. Yes it would prevent one less death at night, but thus far that would have been bad because we have had scum dying at night, but more importantly it would effectively cause both cop investigations to be nullified. I doubt I will be using it this game because of this... so it is a pretty weak power role. But joth did say that some roles would have a negative utility.
-
I was Jadzia Dax, I am now Ezri Dax.
-
I was Jadzia Dax, I am now Ezri Dax.
So we're married. Huh.
-
Oh, I am Kasidy Yates, if for some reason that matters.
-
What that means, clearly, is that Munch's team tried to kill me last night. My 1-shot deathproof is gone and I'm now a VT.
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What that means, clearly, is that Munch's team tried to kill me last night. My 1-shot deathproof is gone and I'm now a VT.
Doesn't clear you from being MU, though.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/??
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/??
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax
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I'm general martok, also does anyone oppose the liopoil lynch at this point?
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I'm general martok, also does anyone oppose the liopoil lynch at this point?
theorel does
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/??
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax
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o and I am Elim Garak?
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We need name and role from Jimmmmm, name from yuma, and name from Theo and we're done.
PPE - thanks yuma.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax
[/quote]
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so I guess we are just waiting on Jimmmm and theorel?
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what is a lightning rod?
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it attracts all night kills to you so all kills, all protections, all investigations.
Uses include, if there is only one nk and there is a medic, you can cancel the nk automatically. Yuma mentioned in a game like this with multiple nk's you would reduce the nk's to one.
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I see... so say, if jimmmmm claims doc then Yuma should probably use it right?
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I see... so say, if jimmmmm claims doc then Yuma should probably use it right?
maybe... Or JK... and if he hasn't already used up his powers if he is a 1-shot. (although I am not sure if a doc or JK should say if they have used their powers or not). The other problem with it is that it attracts investigations as well. Which basically means that both cops will return a result of "station" when I use it nullifying their investigative results.
I am very hesitant to use it because while it would prevent an additional night kill, it is a night kill of me a confirmed (yes, I know... only confirmed to myself) townie, would potentially stop scum from killing scum (which is what would have happened had I used it night 1 or 3) and would make the cop investigations from that night worthless.
I think it is a negative utility role.
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wait, but you wouldn't die right? getting to skip night is pro-town yes?
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wait, but you wouldn't die right? getting to skip night is pro-town yes?
ah yes...! I had forgotten about that. That will depend on whether or not the doc or JK has a power available to perform a doc or JK.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax
We can count ash and Dsell as confirmed not-maquis right?
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Yes. I'm Miles O'Brien.
@ashersky: you haven't only investigated dead people, you also investigated me...and for the moment I'm alive. Your investigations also make sense from a town perspective, and you stopped painting me as a scum mastermind yesterday, which is a reasonably town reaction to such an investigation.
Of course, as an IC I'll probably be dead tomorrow. Which might be sufficient reason for yuma to use his lightning rod? I mean, yes it results in a confirmed town (to you) death, but it's in place of a confirmed town (to everyone) death.
Okay, now for the liopoil situation.
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(that yes was in reference to liopoil. i.e. ash and Dsell are confirmed non-Maquis)
-
Jimmmmm appears to be online. You are up for claiming!
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K. That was suspicious... Jimmm was online, saw this thread and didn't claim.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
So...
Possible MU:
ashersky
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
Dsell
Possible Maquis:
Robz
yuma
liopoil
mcmsalot
Jimmmmm
Possibly both:
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
That last subset should be investigation targets, at the very least.
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Fixed:
Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
So...
Possible MU:
ashersky
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
Dsell
Possible Maquis:
Robz
yuma
liopoil
mcmsalot
Jimmmmm
Possibly both:
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
That last subset should be investigation targets, at the very least.
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I am a 1-shot Tracker, not a Tracker.
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Okay, why we shouldn't lynch lipoil.
There are 4 potential game situations right now:
1. There were 4 scum initially there is now 1 MU left. liopoil can't be scum.
2. There were 3 MU and 2 Maquis initially, there are 2 scum left both MU. liopoil can't be scum.
3. There were 2 MU and 3 Maquis initially, there are 2 scum left, 1 of each faction. liopoil is quite probably the other Maquis, although I'd want to look over that case myself (and would like to before today ends anyways).
4. There were 3 MU and 3 Maquis initially, there are 3 scum left, 2 MU and 1 Maquis. Same as above really, except lynching town would be really terrible.
4 is really unlikely.
2 and 3 are the most likely and about equal.
1 is possible, but if we're in that situation we're in pretty good shape anyways.
So, for my analysis I'm going to throw out possibilities 1 and 4.
This means there is a MAXIMUM 50% chance that liopoil is scum. I would argue it's at least somewhat lower than that.
For the 5 players who are unconfirmed as non-MU each has at least a 20% chance of being scum.
Okay, I've tried to work out the cases, but basically it comes down to: if we lynch town we go to lylo/mylo. There are some questions of when to activate yuma's LR-power. If there's only one scum-team then he should activate it at some point, because it can't be WIFOMed. (i.e. either scum kills yuma which leaves a confirmed town alive or scum doesn't kill yuma and we get an extra mislynch which we can use to lynch yuma. So, since scum-yuma can't get away with living we don't actually need to worry about whether he's scum)
BUT if there are 2 NKs ever then yuma's power can be WIFOMed. If he activates immediately he can prevent a scum-kill but then we don't know how many scum-teams we're dealing with which is potentially even worse.
I don't like the liopoil lynch because of the possibility that 2 of yuma, Dsell, Robz, ash, and mcmcsalot are MU.
Also, there is at least some possibility that if there is a Maquis player it isn't liopoil. (yes the liopoil case is good, but if it's wrong we're killing someone who's confirmed to be NOT in the only faction we know-for-certain exists.)
Part of the issue here though, is that a pair in the set of MU-possible players has different possibilities than a single-scum in that set.
But, I feel like we should be looking into the set that can be scum regardless of set-up rather than looking at one person who can only be scum specifically if there are 3 Maquis. This doesn't bear out if liopoil is really the only possible Maquis-player. I'll have to think on it some more, but regardless we should definitely spend some time today looking into people that actually CAN be Galzria's partner(s).
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Theorel, I don't think you've considered the case against liopoil well enough. I'm not sure I've ever been this sure that someone is scum absent night information.
I also find it very likely that there are at least 5 scum, meaning one team or the other has an extra person. (None of the scum PRs we've seen so far are strong AT ALL, and everybody in the town has a non-trivial power. So scum have to have something... either some strong PRs we haven't seen, or maybe just a number advantage).
It seems hard to believe Munch/Glooble were it for their team. A 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor? Up against all the town PRs, and another scumteam that includes at least a ROlecop (which is better than both those PRs). No, I think Glooble/Munch HAVE to have another partner to be balanced.
That partner is very, very clearly liopoil.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
So...
Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, liopoil, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm
Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
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If someone made up a role, it was liopoil with Neighbor or mcmc with Bomb.
I think Scum Bomb is pretty awesome. It only works if they are night killed, and it helps town, since we have no town night kills. But town having no night kills probably means a Bomb is Town.
Looking at the Possible Galz partners, I think Dsell is still a possibility. Deathproof plus roleblocker is pretty strong as far as scum teams go. They're like the passive strength team.
Robz has been town to me all game. He's agreeing with my lio argument. I guess if he's the other Maquis, that makes sense.
Scum LR is a topic of favorite conversation on f.ds. We've seen it before. Twice.
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To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.
They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.
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To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.
They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.
Preaching to the choir here.
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To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.
They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.
Preaching to the choir here.
Ha, yes. I am trying to direct my preaching to the theorel, who I think is wrong, but not wrong-therefore-scum.
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Stop trying to use roles to determine alignment.
Roles were assigned 100% independent of alignment.
Now, that said, joth may have balanced the Numbers of scum based on the roles they received. So, it's quite possible that the Maquis so far being weaker than the MU means that there's MORE LIKELY to be another Maquis.
But the fact that everyone arguing for the liopoil lynch is potential MU-scum with up to 2 of them in fact being scum makes me HIGHLY hesitant to take the arguments at face value.
I believe the argument is: Munch (who was practically absent from forum games for IRL reasons) didn't vote for Glooble or liopoil.
liopoil voted for Glooble only once the lynch "seemed certain" to go through.
This sounds like a very bad scum strategy, especially for a team with superior numbers. Especially after seeing liopoil nearly lynched day2, and Glooble taking heat over and over. Especially given liopoil's OBVIOUS buddying to Glooble day1 (cited yesterday). Now, hey I'm one who has argued that obvious-scum is obvious over "Too obvious to be scum". But, I think all of this needs to be more carefully considered.
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Interesting point-of-fact: The same scum team killed raerae, shraeye, and The Munch on consecutive days. This points strongly to Robz/ash if they were scum-hunting-scum.
Let's talk about some actual "FACTS" (or at least close to facts)
At least one of: {ash, Robz, Dsell, yuma} Must be scum. This is guaranteed regardless of set-up.
mcmcsalot CAN be scum, but it requires another MU-player to exist. Either Robz for lying about tracking him, or another player to do the kill for him. So, it's pointless to consider mcmcsalot.
Robz (and ash) have sounded so much like scum worried about the sudden proliferation of ICs. I mean ash suggested we should lynch liopoil then Jimmmmm. i.e. let's kill off the players that MIGHT belong to a scum-faction that might not even exist. Robz attacked them both immediately, and also suggested that mcmcsalot is the only player he can see as Galz' partner. When in fact the opposite is true, mcmcsalot pretty much can't be Galz' partner all by himself.
Now, I think ash is quite possibly just wrong. He seems to suggest ideas that most people dislike (including myself). I mean he was suggesting before claiming that we should lynch whoever claimed Maquis-cop...when he was in fact the Maquis-cop. Things like this, I really have a hard time understanding, but it lends credit to the idea that he actually thought lynching liopoil then Jimmmmm was a good idea.
So, I'm left with hefty suspicions on Robz.
I need to think through all the implications, but I actually think a good strategy would be to lynch Robz today (this provides a wealth of information on the 5 possible-MU players), and have yuma LR tonight (if Robz flips town). That would leave us with ashersky OR Dsell as the only potential MU players tomorrow. I'd lean Dsell since at that point 2 confirmed town players have town-reads on ash.
If flavor indicates that yuma was double-killed, then we can consider what to do. Let's see, we'll be at 6 players, 2 scum of opposite alignment. Now if we mislynch here, we go into night with 5 players, 2 scum-3 town. Now if the Maquis-player shoots town while the MU player shoots scum, MU wins, similarly for Maquis. If they both shoot town, then we get 1v1v1 which is an interesting no-win situation for everyone.
OTOH if we lynch scum here, then we go into night 5 players, 1 scum-4 town. So we get to 1 scum v 3 town, and we're at mylo...but one of those 3 is maybe confirmed town?
If yuma was single-killed then we'll be at 6 players, 2 scum of same alignment with 3 of the 6 confirmed not that alignment. That's mylo, with 2/3 chance of hitting scum. So, we pick Dsell/ash, and if we're right we have 3v1 with 2 confirmed non-scum...if we're wrong we lose.
So, I think that points to the fact that lynching liopoil is the wrong move strategically. I'd like input from anyone who's actually willing to work through it. Also, yuma are you willing to sacrifice yourself since you're much more useful as a NK-absorption than a suspect?
I'd be willing to be persuaded that Robz isn't the best target here. But pretty much it needs to be one of the three: {Robz, Dsell, ash}. I'm leaning town on ash, neutral on Dsell, and slight scum on Robz. yuma is up there, but as long as he activates his LR it's not a concern.
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Sorry for the delay, just got home from work. I logged on a couple of times to see what was happening, but didn't get time to post.
I am a Beloved Princess.
checks PM
I am Vadek Bareil Antos, so I guess that makes me a Beloved Alien Man-Princess. That means that if I am mislynched, the Bajorans on the Station, whoever they are, will spend the next day mourning for me, which will shut down the Station and skip a Day. For some reason those bastards don't care if I'm killed during the night.
I realise this could be seen as an aggressive scum claim - "I dare you to lynch me!" - and for most of the time between getting my PM and starting day 1 I was planning to claim almost immediately so it didn't appear to be a desperate attempt to save myself. But I realised that would make me a target for Vigs and not a target for scum, so I said what I said to try to reverse that and maybe draw a scum kill. I guess they're too smart for me though, because here I am.
PPE: ^I went to post this at about 4pm but then discovered my internet was no longer working, then a friend came over to play Dominion, then I went out and I'm finally home and it's past midnight. So again, sorry for the delay.
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Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
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Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
Do we want Jimmmm to say whether or not he used his Doctor power? That could have some implications on me regarding my use of LR.
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Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
Do we want Jimmmm to say whether or not he used his Doctor power? That could have some implications on me regarding my use of LR.
That's mostly up to theorel.
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Also, yuma are you willing to sacrifice yourself since you're much more useful as a NK-absorption than a suspect?
I would be hesitant... because I don't want to die. But like I said above I would kinda want to know anything about JK doc roles. Because one it could result in me being saved and two using the LR could result in me still dying, but it appearing to only have been killed once if there are two factions. I feel like there are a lot of variables...
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wait, so if two scumteams hit Yuma jimmmmm can't save him?
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wait, so if two scumteams hit Yuma jimmmmm can't save him?
a doc can only prevent one death at a time...
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theorel, couldn't mcmc possibly be maquis? I can see glooble or munch doing the kill instead of him. This would make it potentially a good idea to lynch him. I agree we should lynch someone who could be on either team. Since Yuma is LR I think we should lynch robz or mcmc.
if Yuma is scum he probably won't use his LR even if we tell him to right?
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I think it's better if scum doesn't know whether Jimmmmm has any shots left.
If yuma uses his power, and Jimmmmm can protect him, then that's great. And Jimmmmm can let us know the next day. But I think if we want yuma to absorb the NK, we want it regardless of whether he can be protected.
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mcmc can be Maquis, but he can't be the lone MU (if there is a Maquis). So, mcmc's chances to be scum are dependent on the set-up.
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scum!yuma might not use his power, especially if he's maquis. So we should decide who the cops should investigate too. I think ash should investigate me. theorel should investigate... robz? mcmc? ash? dsell?.
If Yuma uses LR, and lives because Jimmmmm saved him, then we would also know Yuma's alignment right?
that's true. So we shouldn't lynch mcmc. I'm ready to vote for robz.
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scum!yuma might not use his power, especially if he's maquis. So we should decide who the cops should investigate too. I think ash should investigate me. theorel should investigate... robz? mcmc? ash? dsell?.
If Yuma uses LR, and lives because Jimmmmm saved him, then we would also know Yuma's alignment right?
that's true. So we shouldn't lynch mcmc. I'm ready to vote for robz.
If jimm saves yuma we won't know yuma's alignment. As far as the four people in question I would say Dsell, I have had a town read on robz all game, I have had a scum read on ash for a long time but his posts this day have been extremely towny to me.
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If yuma lives we'll know his alignment because he will have been double-investigated.
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If yuma lives we'll know his alignment because he will have been double-investigated.
Oh, duh
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I should mention, somewhat hesitantly but I think the benefit of saying this would outweigh the cost, that I talked to joth day 1 about LR. He said that the LR could be stopped from activating by a couple of roles that I asked specifically about--I won't say which ones specifically, but I will say that nothing that has been claimed is capable of stopping it. So the only way it could be stopped is if someone is being untruthful about a role.
I am saying this because in the even that I am blocked from using my LR kills and docs and investigations won't actually be directed at me (duh!). So people should try and protect and investigate who they would investigate if there was no LR being activated tonight. That way town PRs will actually get the benefit their roles. I imagine that in this situation I would be lynched the next day, but I am really hoping and thinking that scum doesn't have role that is capable of stopping my LR.
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We have <Robz, yuma, Jimm, mcmcsalot, Dsell> where exactly 1 or 2 of those people are scum.
We have <liopoil> where exactly 1 of liopoil is scum.
Liopoil is scum. I guarantee it, 99%.
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the fact that you mention the possibility of two of robz, Yuma, jimmmmm, mcmc, dsell being scum means that there must be a possibility that I am not scum, because there are at most 5 total scum.
99%? wow, I guess you got really unlucky.....
Vote: Robz888
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the fact that you mention the possibility of two of robz, Yuma, jimmmmm, mcmc, dsell being scum means that there must be a possibility that I am not scum, because there are at most 5 total scum.
99%? wow, I guess you got really unlucky.....
Vote: Robz888
This is not true. We could have two teams of 3, with 6 scum. That's not entirely out of the question based on every single person in the town having a fairly useful power. I know theorel said power and alignment are independent blah, but I'm sure Jo recalibrated to make things fair.
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But not matter what the case... I am certain you are scum. And I don't use the word certain lightly.
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K. That was suspicious... Jimmm was online, saw this thread and didn't claim.
How do you track that? where can you see that?
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It seems Jo did realize this, but all he did was make jimmmmm doc it seems.
I think we got unlucky with the roles. We got the LR and beloved princess. Our neighborhood was fairly useless due to scum being in it. Scum got both of the roleblocking roles. This is what caused Joth to give jimmmmm the doc role as well.
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and tracker, at leas two of the three cops, respawning guy (unless Dsell is scum), bomb (unless mcmc is scum), the third cop (unless ashersky is scum), an innocent child, a vigilante...
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I could be convinced to lynch Dsell. I'm most interested in yuma/Jimmmmm weighing in on it.
I would most like to lynch one of Robz/Dsell today. But I would like input on other points of strategic gameplay.
Here's where I'm at with all of that: let's suppose that joth balanced number of scum based on what roles they got. i.e. he rolled one MU, one Maquis, one MU, one Maquis, and then gave an extra partner to the team with weaker roles. Then (as Robz has noted) there is almost certainly another Maquis.
Now, joth wanted to give Jimmmmm an extra ability based on the balance after rolling up all of the scum. That could actually just be a result of 5 scum...but it could be more than that.
In particular a 2-man scum team made up of Rolecop + 1-shot tracker is not impressive. OTOH Rolecop + 1-shot deathproof is reasonably strong, maybe strong enough to be considered slightly unbalancing in favor of scum. Especially because a 1-shot deathproof town is acting as a defensive role against scum, but in the hands of scum it could be thought of to strengthen them overmuch.
Anyways, that's all my thoughts there that are kind of swirling around. Basically Robz feels like a slightly better lynch when I don't really think about it (given that we have really no information there, and so lynching Robz adds more information to town). BUT, based on the information we do have, Dsell might in fact be the better lynch...I dunno.
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@Robz: even if liopoil is scum he is the wrong lynch for today. This is exactly like MXII(? -waffle mafia whichever it was) where you were certain that joth was scum, and even if it was true he was the wrong lynch but you pushed it through anyways and we lost.
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I am way, way more certain that liopoil is scum than I am that Jo was scum. If you look at at Day 3, liopoil fits in perfectly with a Munch/Glooble team.
That said, I do agree with you that gvien Dsell's power, him being part of a 2-man scumteam with Galz here would be I think balanced (although at the beginning I guess it could look scary enough for Jo to give Jimm that extra 1-shot). Of course if this IS the case, there is NO way Munch and Glooble are a team by themselves (because their powers are strictly inferior), so again, this scenario points to liopoil also being scum.
I mean, I guess maybe we aren't ultimately disagreeing here theorel. Dsell may very well be the last MU. I'm just more sure that liopoil is the last maquis. Of course, I have the luxury of knowing I'm not scum, which you don't, so I guess I can see you preferring Dsell to liopoil.
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Dsell, as I've noted several times, has certainly played like a scum. He had huge periods of lurking, and offered extremely little original commentary at any point in the game. We always let him get away with it because of the station thing.
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Death proof and beloved look to be two powers that could, when roled independent of alignment make scum overpowered.
Oh well looks like robz said everything I wanted to.
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I'd prefer to lynch robz over dsell because:
A) Dsell isn't maquis
B) Dsell still has that station aligned first post thing
C) Robz is sure that I am scum, but he is wrong
D) Robz's alignment tells us much more than Dsell's
E) He's been more scummy in general. But that's just what I get from his posts, and isn't really too strong.
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K. That was suspicious... Jimmm was online, saw this thread and didn't claim.
How do you track that? where can you see that?
I saw that he was online while rereading from the nice little green light next to his name, and then I went to this page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?action=who) to view who is looking at what pages. But it appears he had an internet connection issue. You can access that page by going to the f.ds homepage, scrolling to the bottom and clicking where it says the number of guests and users.
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cool, thanks! woah, there are a lot of guests!
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This has probably been hashed out by other players, but I am doing it for my own sake--correct me if I am wrong about stuff please!
There is at least one scum left for a total of at least four.
- If there is only one scum left it is MU because it would be stupid to have 3 Marq and only 1 MU. Obvious.
There could be two scum left for a total of five.
- If there are two scum left, at least one is MU, because again it would make more sense for the pairing to be 3-2 than 4-1. Obvious again.
- If there are two scum left, it is possible that there are two MU and zero Marq.
There could be three scum left for a total of six.
- If there are three scum left, the obvious pairing would be 2 as MU and 1 as Marq leaving the scum 3-3 rather than 4-2.
So we know there is MU left, again obvious stuff here... so we should be looking more for Marq, all that 50/50 stuff going on. So we shouldn't be looking at people confirmed as non-MU today. It just doesn't make sense because there may not even be a Marq left! So that means not lio and not Jimmmm. I understand Robz's suspicion of lio to an extent. He does fit the bill of a Marq but we don't even know if another one exists.... although people have said before that if it was just munch/glooble then that was a pretty weak scum team, so there is likely another person on that scum team. But still the point remains that we may be looking for 2 MUs whereas we are looking for only 1 Marq.
So that means we are looking at a subset of Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot, Dsell.
ash is cop. I am LR. mcmc is bomb, but less likely to be scum because of the tracking result. Sorry, I feel like I missed something, why is it that mcmc has to be paired with someone else to be on this scumteam? So I am looking at Dsell, mcmc, Robz.
Man, I am not good at this theory stuff, so correct me if I am wrong, but in the mean time I am actually going to go do what I feel pretty good at. Scum hunt!
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I understand Robz's suspicion of lio to an extent. He does fit the bill of a Marq but we don't even know if another one exists.... although people have said before that if it was just munch/glooble then that was a pretty weak scum team, so there is likely another person on that scum team. But still the point remains that we may be looking for 2 MUs whereas we are looking for only 1 Marq.
The part I bolded... can anyone possibly disagree with that? It is impossible for Glooble/Munch to be a scumteam by themselves. Impossible. Their powers are too weak. Remember that Jo gave Jimm a 1-shot doctoring to make up for scum being too strong! So there MUST be a maquis left, and the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that it is liopoil.
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I understand Robz's suspicion of lio to an extent. He does fit the bill of a Marq but we don't even know if another one exists.... although people have said before that if it was just munch/glooble then that was a pretty weak scum team, so there is likely another person on that scum team. But still the point remains that we may be looking for 2 MUs whereas we are looking for only 1 Marq.
The part I bolded... can anyone possibly disagree with that? It is impossible for Glooble/Munch to be a scumteam by themselves. Impossible. Their powers are too weak. Remember that Jo gave Jimm a 1-shot doctoring to make up for scum being too strong! So there MUST be a maquis left, and the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that it is liopoil.
Yes I came to that conclusion... it is the line afterward that you didn't bold and ignored... that there is also a chance that there is 2 MU. So there is a better chance of looking in that direction. Do you agree...?
Although I suppose that if you are extremely sure about lio... and I will have to look at that more fully myself we could prevent an additional night kill because then the Marquis would be exterminated. I'll be honest... partially for my own sake... this makes more sense to me now (if lio is indeed marquis) because then I will have a greater chance of surviving the night as there wouldn't be two night kills for my LR to attract! I'll need to think about this more fully.
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not true. Jo gave jimmmmm doc in D1, before any scum were dead. If could have been that there was a very strong MU team, or that raerae, me, and Jimmmmm didn't really have powerful roles. Nobody really does, because everyone except Galz was a one shot. 5 scum out of 15 is a fairly bad ratio for town I think, especially with the potential of 2 town kills a night. We got lucky in that over three nights we have only had 2 town die, an 2 scum die.
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mcmc is bomb, but less likely to be scum because of the tracking result. Sorry, I feel like I missed something, why is it that mcmc has to be paired with someone else to be on this scumteam?
I mean there is the possibility that Galz could kill and investigate at the same time...but usually a mafia rolecop can't do that. We also know that Galz' team did kill Night1. If Robz is not mcmc's partner, then mcmc did nothing N1. If Galzria couldn't cop and kill, then someone else on his team had to kill. That person cannot be mcmc because he didn't do anything. Therefore mcmc needs another partner.
It's not quite guaranteed because it's possible that Galz could investigate and NK. But I think it's a fair assumption that he couldn't.
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I understand Robz's suspicion of lio to an extent. He does fit the bill of a Marq but we don't even know if another one exists.... although people have said before that if it was just munch/glooble then that was a pretty weak scum team, so there is likely another person on that scum team. But still the point remains that we may be looking for 2 MUs whereas we are looking for only 1 Marq.
The part I bolded... can anyone possibly disagree with that? It is impossible for Glooble/Munch to be a scumteam by themselves. Impossible. Their powers are too weak. Remember that Jo gave Jimm a 1-shot doctoring to make up for scum being too strong! So there MUST be a maquis left, and the evidence suggests overwhelmingly that it is liopoil.
Yes I came to that conclusion... it is the line afterward that you didn't bold and ignored... that there is also a chance that there is 2 MU. So there is a better chance of looking in that direction. Do you agree...?
Although I suppose that if you are extremely sure about lio... and I will have to look at that more fully myself we could prevent an additional night kill because then the Marquis would be exterminated. I'll be honest... partially for my own sake... this makes more sense to me now (if lio is indeed marquis) because then I will have a greater chance of surviving the night as there wouldn't be two night kills for my LR to attract! I'll need to think about this more fully.
Yes, but the line of thinking on the MUs isn't as certain. Like, of course there is at least one, possibly two. (My guess at this point is one, and it's Dsell). But those are aren't certainties. We don't know whether its one or two, and we don't know who they are.
But there MUST be one--exactly one--maquis. And it's liopoil.
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mcmc is bomb, but less likely to be scum because of the tracking result. Sorry, I feel like I missed something, why is it that mcmc has to be paired with someone else to be on this scumteam?
I mean there is the possibility that Galz could kill and investigate at the same time...but usually a mafia rolecop can't do that. We also know that Galz' team did kill Night1. If Robz is not mcmc's partner, then mcmc did nothing N1. If Galzria couldn't cop and kill, then someone else on his team had to kill. That person cannot be mcmc because he didn't do anything. Therefore mcmc needs another partner.
It's not quite guaranteed because it's possible that Galz could investigate and NK. But I think it's a fair assumption that he couldn't.
Ok I get that... can we ask the mod about it? I checked the OP and didn't see anything saying yay or nay. jotheonah: can mafia use night powers and kill the same night?
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You're probably one of those people that asked questions in class, instead of just trying to guess at things where the instructions were unclear.
Also, existence of a doc does probably change things that I haven't tried to account for yet. Fully negating a NK makes the upside of lynching the Maquis (assuming one exists) earlier greater. I'll need to rethink things.
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If I wasn't super positive liopoil was part of the Munch/Glooble team, it would be another matter. But oh, just look at what happens in the course of day 3. The interactions between the three of them are crystal clear.
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mcmc is bomb, but less likely to be scum because of the tracking result. Sorry, I feel like I missed something, why is it that mcmc has to be paired with someone else to be on this scumteam?
I mean there is the possibility that Galz could kill and investigate at the same time...but usually a mafia rolecop can't do that. We also know that Galz' team did kill Night1. If Robz is not mcmc's partner, then mcmc did nothing N1. If Galzria couldn't cop and kill, then someone else on his team had to kill. That person cannot be mcmc because he didn't do anything. Therefore mcmc needs another partner.
It's not quite guaranteed because it's possible that Galz could investigate and NK. But I think it's a fair assumption that he couldn't.
Ok I get that... can we ask the mod about it? I checked the OP and didn't see anything saying yay or nay. jotheonah: can mafia use night powers and kill the same night?
Maybe they can and maybe they can't. Maybe there are no mafia. Maybe the mafia have no powers. Maybe the mafia have no nightkill.
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Would you have let Munch give his scummates the QT?
maybe he'll answer that one?
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Man if I start answering questions, it's a slippery slope.
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The mod can't publicly answer questions about matters that aren't publicly available. If you truly are a neighbor, you can PM him to ask if it's permissible to post neighbor qt anywhere else. YOU can, if you are a neighbor. No non-neighbor person can. Do you see?
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it could be public info if joth wanted it to be. There could be a rule that you aren't allowed to share QT links with anyone not in the QT
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it could be public info if joth wanted it to be. There could be a rule that you aren't allowed to share QT links with anyone not in the QT
Yes, that could be a rule, but it would be a rule that only people in the qt would be aware of.
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why is that necessarily so?
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why is that necessarily so?
Because the mod is not allowed to publicly give any information about roles to anyone, you could be lying you even a neighbor and joth answering neighbor related questions is mod confirming your role. I'm not saying your not a neighbor I'm just saying thats why joth cannot publicly announce any information where as my brother keeps saying you could pm joth and then tell us without quoting once again still making it so we have to take your word for it and not mod confirming you.
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why is that necessarily so?
Beause this game is an unknown setup. There is no list of powers and exactly what they do. Some games have this. In those games, you can quiz the mod all you want on how various powers would interact. CHeck out M-XII, for example.
But in this game, the specific powers are unknown. So you can't actually ask about powers that you don't have. They may or may not xist. You might put Jo in a position where he has to try and explain how a fake power--a power someone lied to have--would interact with whatever your question is about.
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I'm not mafia of any sort.
I should look at Robz' reasoning for Liopoil again, reading through it didn't seem all that terribly damning. If you're so sure it might be worth making a mega-post when you get the chance pointing out all their interactions and irrefutable evidence.
I understand and am a bit surprised that there is guaranteed scum between myself, Robz, Ashersky, yuma, and mcmc. That could be a good place to look. I am station, but believe me, I know I haven't been playing like it. I have had a strong townread on Robz and yuma most of the game. Robz is seeming more flaily today, but I still think it's just reallyreally sure Robz. Yuma shouldn't be a lynch target since he can LR to potentially prove himself/absorb the kills. I have given some towncred to Ashersky and Mcmc most of the game because Robz has said he's very sure of their towniness. Ashersky has actually read a bit scummy to me, though, UNTIL TODAY. (Another thing to note, is that if the cop is scum, can we trust them to be fully honest about who they investigated/their results?) Someone else mentioned this, but he is reading very very townie to me today. That leaves Mcmc, who I have not had a great read on ever. What was his claim again?
Any of the above reads could be wrong, but they are what they are. My strongest read of the game has been a townread on Robz, followed by a scumread on munch (SO VALIDATED).
If Robz is able to really sell me on it, I think that lynching the last Marquis (if it is Liopoil) is the SMARTEST lynch for the day, since obviously eliminating a night kill is fantastic.
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And again, the fact that you don't know whether neighbors are allowed to post links to the qt is really weird. If you were truly a neighbor, you could ask and he would tell you, if he hadn't already made it clear in the neighbors qt, which is what I assume he would do.
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in regard to ash's cop claims... we can trust him so far in that he investigated dead people... (he may have lied about that, but I am not sure why)... and made theorel IC. I can't see a scenario where scum!ash would lie about investigating theorel with the result of making him an IC.
and theorel is IC, so I trust his results.
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but the mod has already confirmed in posting the flips that munch was a neighbor and maquis, and that he did have a partner. I'm not asking about a role that could potentially not exist.
I did also post the question in the QT. haven't heard anything yet.
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oh wow, he actually gave me an answer! he said that he thought sharing QT links was never allowed in mafia games. He said that he didn't tell munch that he couldn't, but would have told munch he could not do that if he had asked. lastly he said that if munch HAD given his team the link that he would have tried to remove it.
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Ok, weekend here.
I see the logic in going after the MU. But I really think the case on lio is strong, and eliminating a kill tonight is big.
Yuma should LR tonight to prove his innocence and ensure only one death at most.
Between Dsell/Robz, Robz is townier. I was the only person who didn't give Dsell cred for the town/station post. So I'd prefer Dsell.
My post about lynching the cop was trying to draw out some opinions from people to see if I could get some clues on who might be maq. I thought they might be over eager to agree.
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The logic behind the "we want to cut the #of NKs down to one, so let's lynch liopoil" is faulty. I'm going to try to show that in this post.
First of all, let us examine the possibility that there are six scum. This seems unlikely because in this case 2/5 of the players are scum! With six scum on two teams it is impossible for town to win without a mafia dying at night, or a successful doctor protection or LR, EVEN if town lynches scum every single day. If there are six scum then we are pretty much at Lylo right now. so not only is it incredibly unlikely from my perspective that there are six scum, but even if there are we shouldn't consider it as a possibility because it means we pretty much already lost. Therefore I will assume that there are not 6 scum.
That leaves 4 or 5 scum. in the case that there are 4 scum I am 100% certainly station-aligned. there is a non-zero chance of there being just four scum. However, what that chance is subject to question. So let's assume for the purposes of this that it is only a 2% chance, because that is the worse case for what I am trying to show. (assume there is no such thing as fractions, it makes things simpler ;) And making it 1% gives you fractions in the next post. Regardless of what you make this number you still arrive at the result I did at the bottom. I think you all understand what I am saying.).
That leaves a 98% chance of there being 5 scum (could be less, depending on above number.). I do not believe that Joth would effect which team had three members based on roles. He says in the opening post that knowing a player's role will not give you any information pertaining to their alignment, except in the case of Cops and IC variant. If he decided to choose which team had more scum on it based on roles then people who claim weaker roles are more likely to be suspected as scum. This means that knowing a player's role WOULD give you information pertaining to their allignment. Therefore I say that assuming there are five scum, there is an equal chance of 2 MU, 3Maquis; and 3MU, 2 Maquis. With 3 MU, 2 Maquis not only am I confirmed town, but it is impossible for us to eliminate a team today. With 2 MU, 3 Maquis, then ANY scum we lynch eliminates a team. In this scenario we have no reason to gun for a particular team. EVEN if we assume that "If there is a maquis, then it is liopoil", There is still a 49+2=51% chance that there is no maquis, and a 49% chance that there is maquis.
Therefore we should lynch based not on chances of eliminating a scumteam, but based on the chance the person flips scum, how powerful their role is, and what information their lynch would give us for tomorrow.
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In that post note that I assumed that there being only 4 scum is very unlikely and that if there is maquis then it is me. I do not believe either of these things.
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I'd like to mention also that at one point Robz was assuming that there were exactly 4 scum.
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The logic behind the "we want to cut the #of NKs down to one, so let's lynch liopoil" is faulty. I'm going to try to show that in this post.
First of all, let us examine the possibility that there are six scum. This seems unlikely because in this case 2/5 of the players are scum! With six scum on two teams it is impossible for town to win without a mafia dying at night, or a successful doctor protection or LR, EVEN if town lynches scum every single day. If there are six scum then we are pretty much at Lylo right now. so not only is it incredibly unlikely from my perspective that there are six scum, but even if there are we shouldn't consider it as a possibility because it means we pretty much already lost. Therefore I will assume that there are not 6 scum.
That leaves 4 or 5 scum. in the case that there are 4 scum I am 100% certainly station-aligned. there is a non-zero chance of there being just four scum. However, what that chance is subject to question. So let's assume for the purposes of this that it is only a 2% chance, because that is the worse case for what I am trying to show. (assume there is no such thing as fractions, it makes things simpler ;) And making it 1% gives you fractions in the next post. Regardless of what you make this number you still arrive at the result I did at the bottom. I think you all understand what I am saying.).
That leaves a 98% chance of there being 5 scum (could be less, depending on above number.). I do not believe that Joth would effect which team had three members based on roles. He says in the opening post that knowing a player's role will not give you any information pertaining to their alignment, except in the case of Cops and IC variant. If he decided to choose which team had more scum on it based on roles then people who claim weaker roles are more likely to be suspected as scum. This means that knowing a player's role WOULD give you information pertaining to their allignment. Therefore I say that assuming there are five scum, there is an equal chance of 2 MU, 3Maquis; and 3MU, 2 Maquis. With 3 MU, 2 Maquis not only am I confirmed town, but it is impossible for us to eliminate a team today. With 2 MU, 3 Maquis, then ANY scum we lynch eliminates a team. In this scenario we have no reason to gun for a particular team. EVEN if we assume that "If there is a maquis, then it is liopoil", There is still a 49+2=51% chance that there is no maquis, and a 49% chance that there is maquis.
Therefore we should lynch based not on chances of eliminating a scumteam, but based on the chance the person flips scum, how powerful their role is, and what information their lynch would give us for tomorrow.
If you want me to lynch based on the chance the person flips scum, I am lynching you, because you have the highest chance based on my reads of people's play.
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I'd like to mention also that at one point Robz was assuming that there were exactly 4 scum.
Yes, and I very visibly changed my mind after considering the evidence, which I believe incontrovertibly suggests at least 5 scum. Why? Well, given the powers that we have, and the powers that the scum have that we've seen, two 2-man scum teams would be beyond pathetic here. So one or the other has to have another person.
But here's the thing, there can't be 3 MUs and only 2 Maquis. Why? Because the MUs would be very, very strictly superior to the maquis in terms of power.
M-VI was similar to this setup. It had a bunch of different roles and multiple scum teams. The 2-person team had 2 very powerful scum (including a really, really powerful Jack-of-All-Trades [it was me] and something else), and the 3-person team had 3 less powerful scum. To balance them out.
1-shot roleblocker and Neighbor are weak roles for scum. Regular roleblocker would be nice; 1-shot is like nothing. The strongest scum power we've seen is on the MU team! That's the Rolecop.
There is no way for there to be 3 MUs and 2 maquis. There can be 2 MUs and 3 Maquis, or 3 and 3.
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While I agree 3 and 3 is unlikely I think we still need to consider it a possibility. 4 is possible as well, but I think even less likely than 6. And if it is 4 then all we need to do is find one more scum and we win. I would rather be pessimistic and win, than optimistic and lose.
But we are likely dealing with 5 and I agree with Robz in concluding that if there is 5 then it is likely 3 with Marq and 2 with MU. Because the opposite just doesn't work. I know that roles don't indicate alignment, but I don't think joth just randomly assigned roles. Joth has played enough games... and knows this community well enough... to know that balance is crucial.
So that means that the most likely scenario is that we are looking for 1 MU and 1 Marq. Lio's insistence at trying to disprove this is silly. He also does not acknowledge the benefit of 1. potentially eliminating a team to prevent future NKs or 2. acknowledge the benefit that may result in me the LR (a townie) surviving the night.
I am warming strongly to a lio lynch, but I need to make sure that I am not just being swayed into this because I want it to result in me surviving the night via protective powers. I need to make sure the narrative that lio as partners with glooble/munch makes sense. Robz were you going to do a large post showing these interactions to start off from? I can go back and try and do it myself, but today is the wife's birthday and tonight and tomorrow are basically about her.
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I will get to it this weekend.
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look, even if there is one marquis and one MU then any scum that we lynch saves Yuma and eliminates a nightkill! there's no reason for us to look specifically for marquis.
Robz, I realize that in this case the MU would be much more powerful than the Maquis. However if I believe what Joth said about role having no bearing on alignment to be strictly true then there is no reason to believe it is more likely to be maquis than MU. Yes it would be a bit imbalanced, but being the setup what it is there is a fair chance of it being imbalanced.
Look, pretty much any setup that has a Serial Killer in it is imbalanced against the Serial Killer, but games with Serial Killers can still be good games.
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True, but the serial killer usually gets his own substantial buffing, like investigative immune or one shot immune.
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Lio, this might just be a misunderstanding because this is your first game with us, but the "regular" games strive for balance. This is a regular game.
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However if I believe what Joth said about role having no bearing on alignment to be strictly true then there is no reason to believe it is more likely to be maquis than MU.
We (I) have already seen joth altering roles for the sake of game balance. Based on that I think that if the Maquis team was just Glooble/Munch, joth would have said to them, "Oh guys the game's really unbalanced against you. Here, Glooble, you can be full Roleblocker." Or something.
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I think we lynch lio, yuma LRs, we sort out the fallout tomorrow.
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Started a re-read on lio. Here's something interesting:
I pretty much agree with everything Glooble as said; so I'm going to join him.
Thoughts?
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More lio thoughts on Glooble and Munch:
Glooble: Well, I guess he hasn't said whole lot either. Slight town read based on he said things which make sense and I agree with.
...
sparky5856 TheMunch. I couldn't figure anything out based on what little sparky said, but I think I person would be slightly less likely to withdraw if they were scum, simply because I think it would be more fun to be scum than station/town. TheMunch has also seemed towny to me.
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I pretty much agree with several of you who voted glooble and then unvoted. He has been helpful when he has posted. His defense has seemed honest. Everyone has been under scrutiny has given a good defense in my eyes actually (glooble, eevee, raerae).
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Jimmmmm makes some very compelling points against eevee. A direct contradiction is always worth pursuing. However, I'm not getting a town vibe from jimmmmm at all. His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me. If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt. Since I'm highly suspicious of jmmmmm, I'm less inclined to trust his arguments re: eevee.
Oh yeah they sent me home early from work. I'm on the bus now posting from my phone.
Early D1 scum!glooble post about Jimmmmm.
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Seems to me the thing people are doing is writing up something about each player. So I'm gonna try that.
ashersky: Seems a bit scummy for the case against Raerae. I understand what he's saying but I don't agree with it. I agree we shouldn't always assume "raerae is just being raerae". However I don't think she has acted scummy at all. She has added to the converstation with questions about others, and has stated her beliefs on other things as well. Her defense was also very convincing. I think I remember him being on the Eevee wagon. I didn't like the Eevee wagon.
Robz888: Also on the Eevee wagon. I think he's being a bit over-accusatory. Has been on the lurker's case a bit too much, as have others. At this point the lurkers have had good excuses. Talked about the setup a bunch too. Stuff with the number of mafia is interesting. I'm not as sure about 4 as he is. what about 4 with SK? or even 3-2? He would know more about this if he was scum. Alo would be more likely to talk about it.
Yuma: I think he's station. People talk about invisiyuma lurking, getting away with it, and then winning as scum in the past. He's been talking a lot here though, and it has been helpful stuff.
Eevee: Totally buy his case. I'd go as far to say that he'd be more likely to say "I'm town" post 1 as town than as scum. I can't see him say "I'm station" either. So that case seems really weak to me so I suspect the people who made it. I thought his response to attack was adequate too.
Shraeye: No. Idea. At. All. I actually can't remember his posts too well. Should re-read.
Cuzz:
I am unoffended, but I find it interesting that you are too busy to offer real reads, yet here you are when the opportunity for a joke appears! So I guess you're following pretty closely, just not saying anything? Interesting strategy, I wonder what your Alignment is.
And as I said, I am not following closely, I am vaguely skimming. I'm behind on all the real substance of the last lots of pages, and will catch up tomorrow and be useful then :).
Said he would be useful tomorrow yesterday. If he hasn't been useful by the end of the day than I think he will be the only person worthy of suspicion on the basis of lurking.
Glooble: Well, I guess he hasn't said whole lot either. Slight town read based on he said things which make sense and I agree with.
Raerae: Stood up for herself more viciously than I would think scum would. As I said before I think she has said useful things, asked useful questions. Probably station.
liopoil: clearly town. Agree with him on absolutely everything.
mcmcsalot: Pretty much no read. maybe slightly more scummy than station, but if I had to guess I'd say town because there are more town than scum. Oh wait, he said I was scummy once. Nevermind guys he's scum! ;)
Jimmmmm: I still think he's a bit scummy for the same reasons that I voted him for, but less so now. More stuff has come to light sice then, so Unvote.
theorel: Probably has provided the most, and the highest quality analysis. And I agree with it, so I think he's station.
sparky5856 TheMunch. I couldn't figure anything out based on what little sparky said, but I think I person would be slightly less likely to withdraw if they were scum, simply because I think it would be more fun to be scum than station/town. TheMunch has also seemed towny to me.
Dsell: Only way that he is scum is if he a) was told by Joth in QT that the town was actually station. (unlikely I think) b) He guessed that there would be some flavor name for the town, because there are flavor names for the scum (mirror, maquis, changling). Or maybe there was something in his PM that mentioned "the station" instead of "the town". The more I think about it the more likely it seems to me that one of these happened. However, if it did he still would have had to get the idea to do this, and have the nerve to go for it. Then again, say he is scum and was rather clever with that post. This would be a reason for him to lurk, because he knows tht he can likely get away with it. Still, I think he is town.
Galzria: Also pretty null. Maybe slight town.
on theory: I think knowledge on the setup helps scum more than town. It lets them make much more educated nightkills. More than it helps town make educated lynch's. This is because the scum already know more about the setup than us.
In summary: town reads: Dsell, Eevee, Raerae, TheMunch, Yuma, Theorel, LIOPOIL
Scum reads: Ashersky, Robz888, Jimmmmm.
Did I do it right guys? ;D
Guys...read his thing on Dsell? Friskian scum slip? Told Dsell in the QT??? He knows Dsell is not his neighbor...
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Eh, maybe not. He is saying IF he is scum...and he would have a QT as a neighbor, so he could be thinking about them. Never mind, I guess.
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Shraeye has been making good arguments. People who make good points get town reads. So I think shraeye is town. Same with glooble.
PPE: oh cool! glooble voted too.
Maybe an excuse to sheep his scumbuddy?
Galz and raerae I think are town. Leening scum on ash, but he is confusing. munch, glooble, and shraeye I lean town, but munch and shraeye I think are pushing the wagon too hard, in a scummy way.
Shraeye: I think in this case it is silly to group shraeye and munch together, saying that one is likely scum. I didn't see them+raerae grouping together much yesterday. sure they were all on the cuzz lynch, but so were 5 others.
I'm going to do a slightly different version of the lynching thing. I'm going to do it for who I might vote for, not lynch.
Voting: mcmc
wouldn't vote: munch, dsell, eevee, glooble
would vote for if I saw a good reason: everyone else.
Munch has said lots of stuff I agree with, among other things.
PPE: hooray for munch!
That was in response to this:
I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
10 people left. four people, (munch, Dsell, mcmc, and myself) I have very good solid evidence to believe are town. that leaves six others, probably 3 of which are scum. At this point we really need to lynch scum, preferably wiping out a scum team.
...
that leaves Yuma, glooble, ash, and jimm. I'd like to lynch one of these four today.
very good post Yuma. Town points to you.
Vote: Dsell
I don't want to lynch him. However I want him to give reads on people. maybe even *gasp* vote. jimmmm, glooble, or ash I still think have a better chance of flipping scum.
I thought we were mainly looking at asherky and glooble. :(
I don't think munch is scum, but, for the whole, "one of munch/shraeye/raerae is scum" to be true he would have to be. FoS people who thought one of them was scum, seems like trying to get two misslynchs.
Well I'm not sure exactly what to make of this. lio started off with Town reads on both Munch and Glooble, and for some unexplained reason his Town read on Glooble seemed to disappear.
Questions for lio:
What happened to your Town read on Glooble?
What was your "solid evidence" that Munch was Town?
Why did you wait until last night to try to kill Dsell?
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*This is not the mega-post you're looking for*
No actually it is. Thanks Jimmmmm.
That's just way too much to ignore. If Liopoil is town, we've all just gotten really unlucky that he's had an unwavering townread on 2 members of a scumteam for the whole game.
Vote: Liopoil
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And by unwavering, I of course mean until his scumbuddy's in big trouble.
To think! We couldn't have lynched wrong yesterday!
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But do you really think scum lio would say that he agrees with pretty much everything that his scumbuddy has said?
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But do you really think scum lio would say that he agrees with pretty much everything that his scumbuddy has said?
Newbie scum lio? Yes.
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But do you really think scum lio would say that he agrees with pretty much everything that his scumbuddy has said?
Newbie scum lio? Yes.
Well maybe. I'm just concerned that a Newbie scum player would be more likely to try overly hard to disassociate themselves with their partners. But maybe it is really just a case of obvious scum play is obvious.
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I do think the case on liopoil is fairly good. On the other hand, I'm also a little worried that we're being played by Robz or ash or both. Interested in more thoughts from theorel.
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Okay, I'm gonna try to respond to most of this now.
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Questions for lio:
What happened to your Town read on Glooble?
What was your "solid evidence" that Munch was Town?
Why did you wait until last night to try to kill Dsell?
It went away. I thought he started acting shadier and didn't start posting more like he said he would. He started saying things that I didn't agree with.
My solid evidence that munch was town was that he was in my neighborhood, and we were confirmed not MU to each other. This is much more solid evidence then anything else at the time.
I didn't kill Dsell! munch did. He said this in our neighborhood QT last night, "Dsell has gotten away with way less contribution this game. At least my reads are known for the most part if I die tonight".
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But do you really think scum lio would say that he agrees with pretty much everything that his scumbuddy has said?
I certainly hope I wouldn't! that would be a pretty bad idea, and would be sure to get me lynched after my partner is lynched! hence the current scenario...
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If Liopoil is town, we've all just gotten really unlucky that he's had an unwavering townread on 2 members of a scumteam for the whole game.
First of all, having such an unwavering townread on both of your partners is a really bad idea, and I had a good reason for at least one of them! Munch was my neighbor. If I assume he is town then we can talk freely. If I think he might be scum then our neighborhood isn't worth much. I didn't really help him that much by mistakenly believing that he was town. I only had the townread on glooble D1.
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What's interesting is that if I was Maquis then after raerae died I would just have had two scum QTs, except one without glooble. ;D
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Thinking about this last night I decided that I was thinking a lio lynch was a good thing for the wrong reasons. Look, if lio is scum partners with glooble and themunch--those two are sum veteran scum players! I imagine they would have said something along the lines of "show suspicion on us, bus us early, just act like we aren't your scum buddies" but what we are seeing from Robz and ash is the complete opposite...
Further more we are only looking at posts from lio perspective. This is dangerous. I think we need to look at it from Themunch's and glooble's perspective as well. In just skimming I found this from the munch from the print screen:
Title: Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: TheMunch on January 23, 2013, 01:31:09 pm
"I am 100% against a liopoil lynch."
This quote alone makes me very hesitant to want to vote lio. In fact this quote alone almost seals it for me that I won't be voting for lio. I just don't see Themunch being that blatant about protecting his own scumread. I have seen themunch as scum--I modded over him--and viewed him in Hydra... this isn't themunch's style.
I think we need to look at Robz and Dsell today.
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True, but the serial killer usually gets his own substantial buffing, like investigative immune or one shot immune.
Still very imbalanced...
Lio, this might just be a misunderstanding because this is your first game with us, but the "regular" games strive for balance. This is a regular game.
well, at least one of the following must be true:
"The game has a chance to be imbalanced, and Joth would allow that."
""What Joth said about role being completely independent of alignment was not strictly true."
I see why you guys can not believe that the first one could be true. I also think the first one is not something that is likely to be true. However, I also have trouble believing that the second one could be true, because Joth made it very clear that role was independent of alignment and re-iterated that many times. So I am unsure...
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Title: Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: TheMunch on January 23, 2013, 01:31:09 pm
"I am 100% against a liopoil lynch."
Also note that this WOULD make tons of sense if I am town and a neighbor with munch. HE knew 100% that I had to be town, because he knew that the other team was the MU, and that I wasn't MU, nor his teammate. He also knew that if I was lynched he wouldn't have any townie brain to insert lies into at night.
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Thinking about this last night I decided that I was thinking a lio lynch was a good thing for the wrong reasons. Look, if lio is scum partners with glooble and themunch--those two are sum veteran scum players! I imagine they would have said something along the lines of "show suspicion on us, bus us early, just act like we aren't your scum buddies" but what we are seeing from Robz and ash is the complete opposite...
Further more we are only looking at posts from lio perspective. This is dangerous. I think we need to look at it from Themunch's and glooble's perspective as well. In just skimming I found this from the munch from the print screen:
Title: Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 2)
Post by: TheMunch on January 23, 2013, 01:31:09 pm
"I am 100% against a liopoil lynch."
This quote alone makes me very hesitant to want to vote lio. In fact this quote alone almost seals it for me that I won't be voting for lio. I just don't see Themunch being that blatant about protecting his own scumread. I have seen themunch as scum--I modded over him--and viewed him in Hydra... this isn't themunch's style.
I think we need to look at Robz and Dsell today.
I could vote Dsell. I never bought that station post thing from D1.
Jimmmmm remains an enigma.
Robz has read townie all game.
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Yuma's point seems to be that the case on lio is too good, right? Like, it shouldn't be so easy. It's the "no way scum does that, it is too obvious" thing.
Who did Glooble bus? He pushed cases on me, but I can't be his partner. Anyone else? Nothing sticks out. TheMunch tunneled me, too. Again, can't be his partner.
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Yuma's point seems to be that the case on lio is too good, right? Like, it shouldn't be so easy. It's the "no way scum does that, it is too obvious" thing.
Who did Glooble bus? He pushed cases on me, but I can't be his partner. Anyone else? Nothing sticks out. TheMunch tunneled me, too. Again, can't be his partner.
It isn't so much that it is too obvious, but rather than it goes against the meta that i have observed and experienced with themunch.... lio doesn't have a meta right now... but the bill you are trying to get him to fill is also easily explained by newbie town. But really my point has more to do with themunch than with lio.
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Yuma's point seems to be that the case on lio is too good, right? Like, it shouldn't be so easy. It's the "no way scum does that, it is too obvious" thing.
Who did Glooble bus? He pushed cases on me, but I can't be his partner. Anyone else? Nothing sticks out. TheMunch tunneled me, too. Again, can't be his partner.
It isn't so much that it is too obvious, but rather than it goes against the meta that i have observed and experienced with themunch.... lio doesn't have a meta right now... but the bill you are trying to get him to fill is also easily explained by newbie town. But really my point has more to do with themunch than with lio.
Fair enough.
Munch died with his last vote on Robz. He was absent for a lot of the game with real life. Do you think he'd leave his vote on his partner?
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Civilians have finally started to take the hint and are leaving the station in droves. Pretty soon only a skeleton crew and a few brave civilians remain.
At least most of the Pah-Wraith cultists left on the transports.
Vote Count 4.1
liopoil (3): Robz888, ashersky, Dsell {L-2}
Robz888 (1): liopoil
Not Voting (4): theorel, yuma, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
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I was under the impression I was voting for liopoil, I have had a continuous scum read, the post made recently confirm this to such an extent I don't see how people can disagree. vote: liopoil
One thing I want to mention about yuma's post, while I agree with using peoples scum meta t find them, I don't think bussing/not bussing is reliable. When to buss your partner and when to defend your partner is not a cut and dry thing. It depends so much on how many players are there, how many votes are there on your partner, how legitimate is it to have a strong townread(some games noone is confident of anyone, this game robz and theorel were incredibly strong townreads from everyone D1) so I don't think the argument of scum would have been bussing is very good. In a game like this it is much easier to derail a lynch and use a town read to protect your partner than start bussing.
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I was under the impression I was voting for liopoil, I have had a continuous scum read, the post made recently confirm this to such an extent I don't see how people can disagree. vote: liopoil
One thing I want to mention about yuma's post, while I agree with using peoples scum meta t find them, I don't think bussing/not bussing is reliable. When to buss your partner and when to defend your partner is not a cut and dry thing. It depends so much on how many players are there, how many votes are there on your partner, how legitimate is it to have a strong townread(some games noone is confident of anyone, this game robz and theorel were incredibly strong townreads from everyone D1) so I don't think the argument of scum would have been bussing is very good. In a game like this it is much easier to derail a lynch and use a town read to protect your partner than start bussing.
it isn't so much about when to bus. It was the opposite. That themunch had a complete 100% townread on his supposed partner.
I do not support this lynch. vote: dsell
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That is L-1. please do not lynch me without giving me a last chance to say something. being town, everything I have said can be trusted once I have flipped town, so I would like to say some things that hopefully will help town win even after my misslynch.
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okay, so everyone has a townread on robz. I feel like Dsell's first post still caries some weight, and he is confirmed not-maquis. However, apart from that he does seem scummy, especially how he jumped on my wagon today. Also, he does not have a power to help town anymore. (I guess I don't either). Regardless, I know I am town, I do not know if Dsell is town. Therefore he is the better lynch for town from my perspective. Vote: Dsell
Also note that if you don't lynch me today then ashersky can investigate me and confirm my innocence.
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Also we really should be waiting for theorel--our confirmed townie, remember him???--to input his thoughts and course of action for the night, although I think we have that pretty much hashed out.
In fact I insist that someone unvote and take lio off L-1 until theorel gets here. Yes, I know me, an unconfirmed townie using the word insist is strong... but really... we need to wait for theorel.
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not that there is anyone online to unvote that is voting for lio... Ug. Well as long as Jimmmm doesn't hammer lio I guess we are fine. Jimmmm no hammering until theorel is around and comments on the situation at the least. If theorel wants to hammer lio I guess that is that and there isn't anything that is going to save lio at that point.
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I'm actually rather confident that all of the scum are on my wagon...
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oh wow, he actually gave me an answer! he said that he thought sharing QT links was never allowed in mafia games. He said that he didn't tell munch that he couldn't, but would have told munch he could not do that if he had asked. lastly he said that if munch HAD given his team the link that he would have tried to remove it.
did anyone actually see this? just wondering... yes I realize you can't neccesarily trust this. Do people still think that I'm lying about being a neighbor? I'm trying to understand the case on me. It seems to be mostly just having two townreads on two scum, who were both on the same team.
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That was quite a flurry of voting. Have another vote count.
Vote Count 4.2
liopoil (4): Robz888, ashersky, Dsell, mcmcsalot {L-1}
Dsell (2): yuma, liopoil
Not Voting (4): theorel, Jimmmmm
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
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we have until February 21st. That's a long time guys. let's use it. I don't think we really need to worry about what happened D1 happening again.
I don't know about you guys, but in my PM when it said I was Rom it also gave me a link to a star trek site with lots of information on characters. At some point I think I'm going to search what everyone said their flavor name was and see if it matches their role. I know mine does. Rom is a Ferengi, as are Nog and Quark (munch and raerae respectively). In DS9 Nog is my son and Quark is my brother. our QT is called the Ferengi QT.
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But do you really think scum lio would say that he agrees with pretty much everything that his scumbuddy has said?
Newbie scum lio? Yes.
Well maybe. I'm just concerned that a Newbie scum player would be more likely to try overly hard to disassociate themselves with their partners. But maybe it is really just a case of obvious scum play is obvious.
Newbie scum Lio might agree with everything that his partners are saying...until they are being suspected, at which point he might drop the townread inexplicably...oh look that's what happened.
I do think the case on liopoil is fairly good. On the other hand, I'm also a little worried that we're being played by Robz or ash or both. Interested in more thoughts from theorel.
We are almost certainly being played by Robz or Ash (or Mcmc or yuma) but they would be on the other scum team. They want people from the other scumteam to die. I want people from both scumteams to die, so our interests converge on Liopoil. If Liopoil is the last Maquis, that's one fewer night kill to deal with and that's GOOD.
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Jimmmm no hammering until theorel is around and comments on the situation at the least.
Don't worry about that, I'm very interested to see theorel's thoughts on the situation.
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Hmm, well yuma's seemed kind of Towny to me lately, and unless he and lio are the last two scum (and they'd have to be opposite teams, so why would yuma try to derail this lynch?), there has to be scum on the lio wagon.
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maybe Yuma shouldn't use LR...
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Jimmmmm remains an enigma.
What do you mean by that?
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Jimmmmm remains an enigma.
What do you mean by that?
I mean I still don't have a strong read either way on you.
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Thought I'd have a look at Glooble's interactions with liopoil, and also Munch for reference.
TheMunch and liopiol I would say are a little bit scummy.
This is very interesting. Do we really think that Glooble would name both his scumbuddies together under "a little bit scummy"? Not sure.
On Munch:
I can't deny Munch seemed extremely eager to end the day, but I don't think his logic about Cuzz's claim was totally baseless.
I think Munch's scum-slip has some merit. I definitely understand his case, and ashersky's reaction looked really panicky. So Munch has risen in my estimation and ashersky has fallen, but I'm far from convinced.
I don't think Munch's initial argument was complicated enough to warrant the four pages of bickering it generated.
Is there scum among Munch and Shraeye? I have no idea. I think it's highly possible they're both scum, but on separate teams. That would make sense with shraeye getting the ball rolling on the Cuzz wagon, then TheMunch pushing it through at the end. But I think Galz technically started the wagon, so I'm not sure his teammate would have wanted to be on it, at least not as vocally as shraeye. If shraeye was on the non-MU team (Maquis, I guess, since if shraeye was SK I highly, highly doubt he would have risked leading a wagon like that) then I could see Munch pushing Galz's wagon through to lynch, maybe, especially if he had a legitimate scumread on Cuzz. That would have been a risky plan, but if Cuzz had flipped scum it would have made both of them look really good, so Munch might have judged it to be worth the risk.
You're not one of my strongest scumreads shraeye. I was just commenting on you and the munch because someone was asking what everyone thought about you two. If the munch is scum, I think he could be either type of scum. The way he pushed the lynch would have been risky if he galz's teammate, but its a risk I could see him going for.
Putting aside the wagons I'd say I have slight town reads on both of you. All jaws trying to say was that I didn't agree that one or the other of you had to be town. Given that we have 2 teams, I could see that, or neither of you being scum, or both.
Both:
I would vote liopoil to avoid a no lynch. I have very little read on him at all at this point.
Munch maybe. I'd have to think about it. Would prefer not to.
And the rest is on liopoil, who Glooble had only mentioned once until this point:
flavor names: woah, I didn't realize that. I actually did not remember that first post. I guess I contradicted myself. is that necessarily scummy though? I wasn't necessarily supporting it in the second post though, I just realized that it should be given some consideration.
The thing is if you actually have opinions on something you tend to me consistent about them. You say you forgot, but I think that kind of forgetting is more likely scum than town. As town, the first time it comes up you actually think "is this a good idea for the town?" and then you say what you think. The second time, even if you don't remember what you said before, you should still go through the same thought process and come to the same conclusion.
As scum, on the other hand, the first time it comes up, your thought process is more convoluted. It's "is this a good idea for my team? is it a good idea for the town? If so, is it worth it to grab town points by agreeing with it, or is it better to do what's actually best for my team? will I look scummy if I support this?" and so on. So when it comes up again, its much easier to come to a different conclusion about what your opinion is.
In other words, I find this pretty solid evidence. And given that ashersky is not going take off before we run out of time, I will go ahead and vote: liopoil
And.. I missed the day end. For what its worth, I think liopoil and ashersky both would have been better lynches.
Ashersky is a better option. So is liopoil, who a lot of you were ready to lynch yesterday.
vote:liopoil
That vote was pretty much to try to save himself, although he had pre-empted it.
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To complete the trifecta, here are interactions from Munch's point of view.
Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way.
Trying to protect/portray liopoil as Town?
Glooble I'll give a hesitant town read if only because of his inactivity but everything that hes said gives me town vibes.
I will reread Glooble, because i remember very little. But right now I'm opposed to lynching Glooble, when we have lynches that I think are very good. Jimmmm and Cuzz are both good lynches in my opinion. I don't understand why the Jimmm lynch isn't getting any traction as I still haven't seen a defense that makes me satisfied.
I agree with this 100%. Now I appreciate the detriment of lurkers but the fact that there are real cases makes me less inclined to lynch the lurker (aka if there were no awesome cases going on then my feelings were different; also yes I am posting this having noticed Glooble has posted, but I haven't read those posts yet and I will respond to those separately).
What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
(Actually reading this now made me wonder why I didn't pick up Munch's scumminess from his unexplained backflip on me.)
I am meh about Gloobles emotional response.
Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.
I'd like as many people as possible to say whether they have a strong townread on anyone in that collection (besides themselves), and why.
Strong town read? Shraeye. Opposite of a strong town read? Ash.
As for everyone else, Glooble hasn't said enough for me to have much of an opinion cause his emotional appeal doesn't count for anything in my book. Galz is interesting. Raerae is raerae.
Mcmc can hammer when he wants.
I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
Why?
I do not think that he actually has a good chance of flipping scum. He could flip scum but there are reasons that I dont want to talk about that indicate to me that he is not a good lynch candidate for today.
This seems to obviously be talking about the Neighbourhood.
well yes, it wasn't intended to be a terribly informative post. and I wasn't jumpig on Yuma's case. I was jumping on munch's case.
Maybe its that Liopoil was sheeping me that is causing me to think the way I do.
I do not want to have to choose between Liopoil and Shraeye. I really dont think that liopoil is the right lynch for today. However, What bothers me about the Shraeye case is everything that Shraeye has done I am also guilty of to some degree. Just ofr some miraculs reason, Shraeye is getting shit for it and I'm not.
I dont know what to propose as an alternative to make the choice not between liopoil and Shraeye. I really want to lynch Ashersky but no one seems to behind this. Liopoil, are you prepared to do whatever it takes to not get lynched like Shraeye?
I think I have strong opinions on my short list but a strong lack of reads otherwise.
I would be willing to lynch the following players if it meant not lynching shraeye or liopoil: eevee glooble theorel jimm robz
Munch seems desperate not to lynch liopoil. Is it a manufactured (or even genuine) Town read, or is he trying to save his buddy?
I'm here. Bout to do a reread on the last few pages. See if theres any merit to this Glooble thing.
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So I think Glooble and Munch almost definitely have one remaining teammate. From my point of view, that's Robz, yuma, liopoil or mcmc.
Munch expressed a strong scumread on both Robz and mcmc, and a strong Town read on liopoil, and I think hardly mentioned yuma but when he did seemed to express a slight scumread.
Glooble expressed willingness to vote mcmc, was very hedgy about yuma, and started coming up with a scumread on liopoil which resulted in voting for him to try to save himself. He didn't seem to say much about Robz, but at one point called him his number one Town read. For completeness, he also had a scumread on me, which became "Still a bad vibe but don't want to lynch".
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I'm still opposed to a liopoil lynch.
Thanks to Jimmmmm for actually rereading things instead of just looking at the end of day3, and sharing those results with us.
It sounds completely and fully (to me)like scum who actually knows someone is town trying to build town-cred by not lynching the town. I think it would be useful to go back over the other potential-Maquis players and see if any of them shared that tendency (Day2/Day3).
I have a townier read on yuma/Jimmmmm for trying to derail this lynch. I'd already expressed a hesitant dislike of the lynch, but was willing to be convinced. They've convinced me that it's a bad lynch when they could have pushed for it instead. We're at a stage in the game where scum really can't afford to be saving players unaligned with them, especially when additional information exists about those players. Also with the even parity, scum is more likely to need to support a lynch to get it off the ground. 3 players (not counting lynchee) opposing a lynch means the lynch doesn't happen.
Given everything, I think yuma should use LR today regardless of whether we lynch town or scum.
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unvote
vote: dsell
I think lio is surely scum, but I know theo is def town. So I'll follow his lead. Dsell is #2 on my list of would lynch for today.
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Unvote
I'm worried about the fairly good chance that the following happens:
We lynch Dsell, who flips town
Yuma LR and dies, flip town
We lynch me, and I flip town
NK theorel or other towie, flip town.
and we lose...
If I am going to be lynched tomorrow I would rather be lynched today, so that you can lynch robz tomorrow.
I feel rather strongly about my scumreads on robz and mcmc.
I also think that perhaps Yuma should not LR so that ashersky can confirm my innocence and theorel can investigate someone too. The problem with this is that scum might kill one of the cops, although Jimmmmm might be able to save one. It is at least worth further consideration
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I also think that perhaps Yuma should not LR so that ashersky can confirm my innocence and theorel can investigate someone too. The problem with this is that scum might kill one of the cops, although Jimmmmm might be able to save one. It is at least worth further consideration
I'll leave that up to theorel to ultimately decide... and I think he has already indicated that I should use it regardless. However, I think it only makes sense to use it if we lynch scum today. If we lynch town, I think my dying--as opposed to two townies dying--is better, although we do lose the investigative results.
And I would also say that in general, I would likely oppose a lio lynch tomorrow as much as I would today. I don't see him as themunch's partner and he can't be MU... so unless we get an investigative result that lio is scum I probably won't be voting for him tomorrow as well... theorel do you feel the same way?
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I also think that perhaps Yuma should not LR so that ashersky can confirm my innocence and theorel can investigate someone too. The problem with this is that scum might kill one of the cops, although Jimmmmm might be able to save one. It is at least worth further consideration
I'll leave that up to theorel to ultimately decide... and I think he has already indicated that I should use it regardless. However, I think it only makes sense to use it if we lynch scum today. If we lynch town, I think my dying--as opposed to two townies dying--is better, although we do lose the investigative results.
And I would also say that in general, I would likely oppose a lio lynch tomorrow as much as I would today. I don't see him as themunch's partner and he can't be MU... so unless we get an investigative result that lio is scum I probably won't be voting for him tomorrow as well... theorel do you feel the same way?
Yuma, in your first paragraph, you say it only makes sense to LR if we lynch scum today. Then, in the next sentence, you make a good argument for why you should LR if we lynch town today. Why the contradiction?
Your (seemingly slight) unwillingness to die for the cause is a scum tell at this point in the game. Any real townie should be willing to die to win the game, since we are clearly ahead on the numbers and we are nearing being able to PoE to a win. Lio's most recent post regarding lynching today instead of tomorrow earned him a few town points, whereas yours about not LRing did not.
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I also think that perhaps Yuma should not LR so that ashersky can confirm my innocence and theorel can investigate someone too. The problem with this is that scum might kill one of the cops, although Jimmmmm might be able to save one. It is at least worth further consideration
I'll leave that up to theorel to ultimately decide... and I think he has already indicated that I should use it regardless. However, I think it only makes sense to use it if we lynch scum today. If we lynch town, I think my dying--as opposed to two townies dying--is better, although we do lose the investigative results.
And I would also say that in general, I would likely oppose a lio lynch tomorrow as much as I would today. I don't see him as themunch's partner and he can't be MU... so unless we get an investigative result that lio is scum I probably won't be voting for him tomorrow as well... theorel do you feel the same way?
Yuma, in your first paragraph, you say it only makes sense to LR if we lynch scum today. Then, in the next sentence, you make a good argument for why you should LR if we lynch town today. Why the contradiction?
Your (seemingly slight) unwillingness to die for the cause is a scum tell at this point in the game. Any real townie should be willing to die to win the game, since we are clearly ahead on the numbers and we are nearing being able to PoE to a win. Lio's most recent post regarding lynching today instead of tomorrow earned him a few town points, whereas yours about not LRing did not.
Sorry... I see that I confused things with that post... the contradiction wasn't intentional. I confused myself. Let me see if I can clarify.
If we don't lynch scum today (if we lynch town) there is still a good chance that we have two scum teams left alive going into tonight,. As a result we would likely have two night kills. Therefore it is better for me to use the LR so that we only have 1 NK and certainly won't have 2.
If we lynch scum today, there is less of a chance that we will have two scum teams, especially if that player is Marquis... Therefore my LR would result in a trade for 1 NK for 1 NK. I do think that my death is worth saving a cop (likely theorel) from dying. But it comes at the loss of investigative results.
Therefore we should only consider my using the LR if we lynch scum. Like I said before theorel should decide that and I will abide by it. If we lynch town today I think my using the LR is the obvious course of action, although again we should leave theorel to ultimately decide upon it.
My argument was intended to say we should not consider using LR if we lynch town, but could consider it if we lynch scum. I am willing to die, but I am not willing to die needlessly. Does that make more sense?
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Well, I haven't had time yet to restate the case against liopoil. I will try to get to that tonight. Warning, though: I will be extremely V/LA until Wednesday, and then again next Friday thru Monday. Bunch of seminars this week.
I'm still deadset on liopoil being scum, but it looks like I'm losing the argument.
I think Dsell is the most likely other scum, just because his power would make him a nice two-man scum team with Galz. But yuma's attempts to wiggle out of using his LR has read sort of scummy to me.
I will curse myself if mcmcsalot is Galz's partner, because of the tracking thing.
Since we know Jimm is not MU, I have to think he isn't scum, since I'm positive liopoil is the third maquis.
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I think Dsell is the most likely other scum, just because his power would make him a nice two-man scum team with Galz. But yuma's attempts to wiggle out of using his LR has read sort of scummy to me.
Dude, roles were assigned independent of alignment. If that is literally your only reason for thinking I'm scum (which is what you just said), that's a terrible reason.
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I will curse myself if mcmcsalot is Galz's partner, because of the tracking thing.
If you're telling the truth there's no way mcmc is Galz' partner unless they have a third. Or I guess he could be a Ninja, but seems unlikely, especially with a total of 1 track for the whole game.
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But yuma's attempts to wiggle out of using his LR has read sort of scummy to me.
Both you and ash have accused me of this and I don't understand it. lio brought up the not using the LR, not me. I responded by saying that I think the best scenario is for me to use it, but explained that in one there is the draw back of not having investigations and then left it up to theorel to decide.
How am I trying to wiggle out of anything. Like I said before I will activate the LR if it is the best course of action, I think it probably is the best course of action, but think that 1. theorel should ultimately decide, not you, not lio and not me. 2. that we should look at all the possibilities before we finalize. This is why I was panicked when lio reached L-1. We hadn't resolved the nights actions.
Now that lio is out of danger I am going to unvote and take a deep hard look at both robz and dsell today.
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yuma I think I can understand what robz and ash are saying. If we lynch town, you using lr results in one less death so you should use it. If we lynch scum you using Lr results in an unconfirmed player dying(only if jimm has no more doc) instead of a confirmed town dying. There issue is that you should be in favor of dying instead of a confirmed town. I see your argument of using Lr provides no investigation but theorel is likely to die anyway and not get to tell us his investigation.
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yuma I think I can understand what robz and ash are saying. If we lynch town, you using lr results in one less death so you should use it. If we lynch scum you using Lr results in an unconfirmed player dying(only if jimm has no more doc) instead of a confirmed town dying. There issue is that you should be in favor of dying instead of a confirmed town. I see your argument of using Lr provides no investigation but theorel is likely to die anyway and not get to tell us his investigation.
I understand what they are saying... they dont' understand what I am saying... that I think thebest course of action for me to use the LR [/b]regardless of who we lynch[/b]. I think that is the best option. I am simply saying that if we do that we lose the investigative results. We do. And I think that is a trade that is in town's favor, but it is still a trade that we--and specifically theorel--needs to analyze.
And anyways... if you want to tell this to someone tell it to lio who brought up the idea of me not using the LR in the first place! I was just responding to him.
mcmc who do you think is scummier, Robz or dsell?
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Sorry... I see that I confused things with that post... the contradiction wasn't intentional. I confused myself. Let me see if I can clarify.
If we don't lynch scum today (if we lynch town) there is still a good chance that we have two scum teams left alive going into tonight,. As a result we would likely have two night kills. Therefore it is better for me to use the LR so that we only have 1 NK and certainly won't have 2.
If we lynch scum today, there is less of a chance that we will have two scum teams, especially if that player is Marquis... Therefore my LR would result in a trade for 1 NK for 1 NK. I do think that my death is worth saving a cop (likely theorel) from dying. But it comes at the loss of investigative results.
Therefore we should only consider my using the LR if we lynch scum. Like I said before theorel should decide that and I will abide by it. If we lynch town today I think my using the LR is the obvious course of action, although again we should leave theorel to ultimately decide upon it.
My argument was intended to say we should not consider using LR if we lynch town, but could consider it if we lynch scum. I am willing to die, but I am not willing to die needlessly. Does that make more sense?
Yuma, you are still confusing me. Read only the bolded sections, in order:
"If we lynch town...we would likely have two night kills. Therefore it is better for me to use the LR..." -- Makes sense.
"If we lynch scum...LR would result in a trade of 1 NK for 1 NK..." -- I understand, but kind of disagree.
"Therefore we should only consider using the LR if we lynch scum." This goes against the two lines I just quoted. "If we lynch town today I think using the LR is the obvious course of action." This makes sense, and agrees with your first paragraph, but not the line immediately before it.
Then you say "we should not consider using LR if we lynch town..." which goes against the thing you just said, and then "could consider it if we lynch scum" which is again, opposite.
You are confusing us with contradictions.
If we lynch town, you definitely need to LR to ensure only one NK tonight.
If we lynch scum, you could argue that no LR is the right move to allow for investigations, since the chance that we have two NKs is reduced.
However, if we lynch a 3rd Maquis today, you should LR anyway, to save Theorel. He's the only one worth saving for sure at that point. If we lynch a second MU, and he's sufficiently powerful, I think you LR to save me. Because in either case, it's better to try and lynch with confirmed town alive on D5 instead of with confirmed town dead and you alive.
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bolding fail... let's try that again.
that I think the best course of action for me to use the LR regardless of who we lynch
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
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oh my goodness! I missed another "not" in there somewhere. I am sorry. See my above post to know how I feel about it.
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
basically exactly that! except I am only listening to theorel, but I would advise theorel to have me use it.
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
lol agreed, and I have already stated I find dsell scummier than robz, robz has been active and towny all game to me, dsell has been scummy and more importantly was given strong town status D1 and did nothing with it to help town, as opposed to theorel who used his early town cred(everyone had a town rad on him) and continued to be helpful all game.
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
lol agreed, and I have already stated I find dsell scummier than robz, robz has been active and towny all game to me, dsell has been scummy and more importantly was given strong town status D1 and did nothing with it to help town, as opposed to theorel who used his early town cred(everyone had a town rad on him) and continued to be helpful all game.
well that is nice and vague.
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So I am interested in some old fashioned wagon analysis because I think that is generally a pretty good way of learning about scum:
Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, ashersky
off cuzz: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, yuma, Dsell
Eevee: ashersky, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
off Eevee: Jimmmmm glooble, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Glooble: ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell
not glooble: TheMunch, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
So just from this I would bet that the remaining marquis is off wagon on the cuzz wagon. I would also guess, but am less sure that Galz's partner is also off wagon, if there is an additional Galz partner it would be a toss up I think. For me this puts mcmc, jimmm and dsell at the top of my list.
Dsell I still find scummy from lack of participation, his reads have just been all over the place (which in a way is kinda townie), his scarcity of votes (although it should be noted that his two votes were on Marquis--o... and he can't be Marquis anyways because of the NK interaction right?)
mcmc maybe? He has been scummy... and kinda had a pass as Galz's potential partner, which makes sense, but why hasn't he been considered as another Marquis?
And Jimmmm still remains scummy from my case on him yesterday. But his claim is problematic. But also very convenient. Do we have to save him for a lynch for the last day? What happens again if we lynch him? Town will skip a day, which effectively means we will have two consecutive nights. Ok, if true, that is bad. At the least we should hold off lynching him until we are sure there will only be 1 NK a night, not two.
Also Jimmm and mcmc have been off on all three wagons. lio, ash and robz have all been on all 3.
Is there any reason we aren't looking at mcmc? I am thinking that might be the direction to go, or at least potentially look.
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Theorel doesn't want to consider mcmc because he is very likely not-MU. this is also why he doesn't want to lynch me: I'm certainly not MU! However, I think he is the Maquis (not marquis). I also think Robz is the MU. It fits perfectly with his certainty that I am Maquis.
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
lol agreed, and I have already stated I find dsell scummier than robz, robz has been active and towny all game to me, dsell has been scummy and more importantly was given strong town status D1 and did nothing with it to help town, as opposed to theorel who used his early town cred(everyone had a town rad on him) and continued to be helpful all game.
well that is nice and vague.
How is that vague, I have had and still have a town read on robz, something I continue to be very good at guessing. I feel dsell is scummy for taking the town cred he got on d1 and doing nothing with it. Town would want to use that town cred to be vocal and give solid reads, multiple people treated him as an IC(stupidly) an he did nothing.
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Dsell I still find scummy from lack of participation, his reads have just been all over the place (which in a way is kinda townie), his scarcity of votes (although it should be noted that his two votes were on Marquis--o... and he can't be Marquis anyways because of the NK interaction right?)
Given Maquis died last night, and Dsell got shot, MU shot Maqius and Maquis shot Dsell. So yes, Dsell is very unlikely to be Maquis.
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Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, ashersky
off cuzz: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, yuma, Dsell
Eevee: ashersky, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
off Eevee: Jimmmmm glooble, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Glooble: ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell
not glooble: TheMunch, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
Further to wagon analysis, I think we should look at Death Anaylsis:
D1: Town SK Cop is Lynched
N1: MU kills town Raerae; Maquis kills MU Galz
D2: Town Eevee is Lynched
N2: Town Shraeye dies.
D3: Maquis Glooble is Lynched.
N3: MU kills Maquis Munch; Maquis shoots Deathproof Dsell
I believe that, based on this, Shraeye was killed by Maquis Munch/partner, and that Glooble roleblocked MU. Which is really odd to me, given we had that "one of the three has to be scum" thing going, so it was in Munch's interest to keep Shraeye alive.
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If anyone took any actions on N2 that could explain someone not dying, now might be a good time to say what it was.
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based on the flavor it seems both teams shot shraeye.
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based on the flavor it seems both teams shot shraeye.
Right, that was a possibility, too. Forgot about that.
Did you just go back and check the flavor, or remember that your team shot him too?
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - Beloved Princess/Vadek Antos (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, liopoil, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm
Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
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Wagons:
Cuzz: Galzria, TheMunch, Glooble, liopoil, Robz888, ashersky
off cuzz: mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, yuma, Dsell
Eevee: ashersky, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
off Eevee: Jimmmmm glooble, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Glooble: ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell
not glooble: TheMunch, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
Deaths:
D1: Town SK Cop is Lynched
N1: MU kills town Raerae; Maquis kills MU Galz
D2: Town Eevee is Lynched
N2: Town Shraeye dies.
D3: Maquis Glooble is Lynched.
N3: MU kills Maquis Munch; Maquis shoots Deathproof Dsell
Claims:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - Beloved Princess/Vadek Antos (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot, Dsell
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, liopoil, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm
Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
Here's all the info in one post for us.
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based on the flavor it seems both teams shot shraeye.
Right, that was a possibility, too. Forgot about that.
Did you just go back and check the flavor, or remember that your team shot him too?
This isn't anything new, we discussed this at the beginning of D3, and came to the conclusion that most likely both teams shot him.
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So long-winded way of saying "yuma should definitely LR no matter what" which is why I think we should NOT lynch yuma today.
lol agreed, and I have already stated I find dsell scummier than robz, robz has been active and towny all game to me, dsell has been scummy and more importantly was given strong town status D1 and did nothing with it to help town, as opposed to theorel who used his early town cred(everyone had a town rad on him) and continued to be helpful all game.
well that is nice and vague.
How is that vague, I have had and still have a town read on robz, something I continue to be very good at guessing. I feel dsell is scummy for taking the town cred he got on d1 and doing nothing with it. Town would want to use that town cred to be vocal and give solid reads, multiple people treated him as an IC(stupidly) an he did nothing.
I guess what I am saying is that I am wondering if you have actually gone back and done analysis, looked at his posts, his voting patterns, his reads, etc, etc... or if you are just basing your read off memory... same thing with robz. I feel like a lot of people have expressed a town read on him, but haven't really said why.
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well I feel like theorel's logic for not looking at lio should also apply to dsell and should also apply to mcmc. I guess that leaves robz and me. Time to look at robz eh?
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yes, great idea! :D
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So we're looking for 1, 2, or 3 scum in {ashersky, Robz, yuma, liopoil, mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, Dsell}.
Our lynch pool for today is really: ashersky, Robz, liopoil, mcmcsalot, Dsell (removing yuma for LR confirmation tonight and Jimmmmm for Beloved Princess issuse)
From that 5, I would remove myself as the Cop.
So we have Robz, liopoil, mcmcsalot, and Dsell.
Arguments for each?
Mcmcsalot == As the bomb, isn't getting NKed. We don't affect what happens at night, most likely. Scum Bomb is possible in a multi-team scenario. Also a good fake claim to keep from being killed.
Liopoil == See the long cases on him being the 3rd Maquis.
Dsell == Deathproof, did nothing with his town cred all game.
Robz == Playing town perfectly, could be him being great scum.
Arguments against:
Mcmcsalot == As the bomb, he could be town survivor for us. Tracked with no actions taken N1 by Robz.
Liopoil == Theorel doesn't want to.
Dsell == ?
Robz == Towny all game.
If I had to order them in lynch preference order: liopoil, Dsell, mcmcsalot, Robz.
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I guess what I am saying is that I am wondering if you have actually gone back and done analysis, looked at his posts, his voting patterns, his reads, etc, etc... or if you are just basing your read off memory... same thing with robz. I feel like a lot of people have expressed a town read on him, but haven't really said why.
My town read on Robz has been based on his play all game.
A big thing for me has been his insistence that I am town. I think he picked up that I was a PR (possibly cop) very early on this game. I think scum!Robz kills me on one of the last three nights. He doesn't let suspected PRs live.
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I'm not really ruling out lio because he's only on one potential team (Note: I was initially, before we'd discussed the likelihood of triple-Maquis double-MU).
Assuming Galz couldn't (or didn't) shoot and cop in the same night, then we have a smaller pool of possible MU than possible Maquis. Combined with the fact that we've found more Maquis than MU and know minimal information about the set-up...I feel like it's better to look for MU than Maquis. Not just that we should ignore people that are unable to be on one team.
Also (@yuma), I'm now fully convinced that you should definitely LR tonight. I think you left the doctor-situation out of your earlier considerations (which is probably why you were getting confused...) But basically if there are 2 scum-teams left and you LR you guaranteed reduce us to 1 kill, if there is 1 team left and you LR then if Jimmmmm has shots left you guaranteed block the kill. Both of these are sufficient benefit, even if I think you're probably town. The opportunity to confirm you and eliminate you as a possible suspect is (at this point) more of a bonus.
Of course, if for some reason the LR fails my inclination would still be to believe you are lying scum. (posthumously if it results in my death)
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I'm not really ruling out lio because he's only on one potential team (Note: I was initially, before we'd discussed the likelihood of triple-Maquis double-MU).
Assuming Galz couldn't (or didn't) shoot and cop in the same night, then we have a smaller pool of possible MU than possible Maquis. Combined with the fact that we've found more Maquis than MU and know minimal information about the set-up...I feel like it's better to look for MU than Maquis. Not just that we should ignore people that are unable to be on one team.
Also (@yuma), I'm now fully convinced that you should definitely LR tonight. I think you left the doctor-situation out of your earlier considerations (which is probably why you were getting confused...) But basically if there are 2 scum-teams left and you LR you guaranteed reduce us to 1 kill, if there is 1 team left and you LR then if Jimmmmm has shots left you guaranteed block the kill. Both of these are sufficient benefit, even if I think you're probably town. The opportunity to confirm you and eliminate you as a possible suspect is (at this point) more of a bonus.
Of course, if for some reason the LR fails my inclination would still be to believe you are lying scum. (posthumously if it results in my death)
For possible MU, we have Robz, mcmc, and Dsell (excluding myself, who I think we don't want to lynch today).
Who's our best lynch for today?
I do agree that Robz's flip would tell us a lot, given how active he's been. It's just that I still think he's town.
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I've had a town-read on Robz all game too. I think he's offered decent pro-town analysis, or at least it felt like he did. But then, I had a town-read on him in VIII, and he was scum. Of course, I had a town-read in XII and he was town. So, I've come to the conclusion that I can't read Robz. One thing in favor of Robz being town though, he believed (or suggested that he believed) that there was one scum in munch/shraeye/raerae. They all 3 died.
I'm inclined to believe that Robz learned from VI that he shouldn't shoot the other scum team (since we lost that game so terribly). So, if that read is genuine, I don't believe he would have shot them. However, some players have been convinced that scum would be shooting for the other team (I'd need to review to find out who, mcmcsalot maybe?). Whoever it is, might be framing Robz based on that information. (if my memory is correct) That'd make for an mcmcsalot-somebody scum team. If it were ashersky that would be terrible for town-Robz' reads, and I'd totally blame him for losing the game even if liopoil is the last Maquis and we could have lynched him.
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I've had a town-read on Robz all game too. I think he's offered decent pro-town analysis, or at least it felt like he did. But then, I had a town-read on him in VIII, and he was scum. Of course, I had a town-read in XII and he was town. So, I've come to the conclusion that I can't read Robz. One thing in favor of Robz being town though, he believed (or suggested that he believed) that there was one scum in munch/shraeye/raerae. They all 3 died.
I'm inclined to believe that Robz learned from VI that he shouldn't shoot the other scum team (since we lost that game so terribly). So, if that read is genuine, I don't believe he would have shot them. However, some players have been convinced that scum would be shooting for the other team (I'd need to review to find out who, mcmcsalot maybe?). Whoever it is, might be framing Robz based on that information. (if my memory is correct) That'd make for an mcmcsalot-somebody scum team. If it were ashersky that would be terrible for town-Robz' reads, and I'd totally blame him for losing the game even if liopoil is the last Maquis and we could have lynched him.
I think we lynch Dsell today.
Dsell, what do you think about that? Will it helps us catch scum, if you are town?
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Who's our best lynch for today?
That's the question I keep asking myself :)
And basically I think it comes down to what you're saying.
If Town:
Robz: gives quite a bit of info. Hurts to lose an active town-player.
Dsell: gives us very little except taking us down in # of potential MU.
Dsell is more likely to be a single partner to Galz than Robz.
Yeah, I think Dsell is the better lynch. If his first post was a scum-gambit for town-cred it worked. But I think we're at the stage where that stops being a driving-force of the game.
I'd still like to hear from yuma at least, since he was going to review Robz. And if he's going to end up a dead town-player after tonight we really want all the useful info we can get from him.
Almost everyone seems to be somewhat in favor of a Dsell lynch, which makes me feel better about it, even if we're wrong :P
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Who's our best lynch for today?
That's the question I keep asking myself :)
And basically I think it comes down to what you're saying.
If Town:
Robz: gives quite a bit of info. Hurts to lose an active town-player.
Dsell: gives us very little except taking us down in # of potential MU.
Dsell is more likely to be a single partner to Galz than Robz.
Yeah, I think Dsell is the better lynch. If his first post was a scum-gambit for town-cred it worked. But I think we're at the stage where that stops being a driving-force of the game.
I'd still like to hear from yuma at least, since he was going to review Robz. And if he's going to end up a dead town-player after tonight we really want all the useful info we can get from him.
Almost everyone seems to be somewhat in favor of a Dsell lynch, which makes me feel better about it, even if we're wrong :P
Sounds good. If yuma can get his Robz read in today, and any other information, I'd prefer we lynch soon. This is a personal preference based on a huge V/LA coming up starting Thursday for a good two weeks where I'll have intermittent access. I'll be less useful from the on. Of course, if I die tonight, it won't matter.
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working on it now... hopefully will be done by tonight.
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Robz:
So one of my big things pondering Robz is that townRobz tends to die early. Not always, but typically. The longer he lives, the more likely he is to be scum in my eyes. But I am not sure if his play actually reflects that. Scum!Robz also tends to be on lynches more often than town!Robz.... from normal games (not counting blitz games) town!Robz has been on and alive for 12/20 for 60% of lynches. scum!Robz has been on and alive for 7/9 for 78%. That may not be a large enough sample size, but worth noting that scum!robz tends to be on lynches more often than town, and in this game robz has been on all three lynches...
But I mean robz has like 334 posts. And people are right, there is quality to it. there is his tracking of mcmc.... which I still think scumrobz could do, but does tend to lean more toward town.
there was this quote that felt off to me To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
it just reminded so much of something he said in the scum quicktopic with joth in that blitz game where he said....
Just be your town self. Let's play this like its M-XII or M-XVI, if we were secretly scum in those games. We're just two town guys, having fun, mislynching across the board. Our reads are so bad! Etc etc.
Robz's reads haven't been all bad this game, he did lynch glooble, but I couldn't help but wonder if this was something robz decided to try again... thinking about it now I am thinking no. Especially since he just barely tried to pull it...
Man, sorry guys this is just a jumble. I am trying to hurry this and I shouldn't... but understand ash's RL concerns...
Gah! Robz reads townie for the most part.... I am starting to wonder if scum is in Jimmmm, ash... the two people we aren't considering at all today. In fact I would vote Jimmmm right now if it weren't for his PR claim.
But for now, I am not going to vote robz. I'll vote dsell. LALL. vote: dsell
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Mods, can we get a vote count?
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I agree that today's lynch should be Robz, mcmc, liopoil or Dsell.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of terribly much Robz has done this game, other than the tracking mcmc thing, which I still think was Towny of him, even if mcmc turns out to be Maquis. Although I do think the fact that I can't remember much of what he's done is a little strange - he's normally in the spotlight.
I'm not sure about mcmc. I was finding him scummy until the Robz tracking thing, and now it seems quite possible that he's scum even if he didn't target anyone. I guess I need to re-examine him.
I really don't know about lio. Yeah, I see the argument and the interactions. But the same interactions that point to him being Maquis also point to him not. And maybe the interactions between him and Munch are simply because they were neightbours, but on the other hand maybe they thought saying "I'm 100% against a liopoil lynch" and such was less risky because they could blame it on the neighbourhood. I don't know.
Then there's Dsell. Well, if he's Town he hasn't helped much, sure, and he's lurked. But does anyone have any other argument or evidence against him?
At this stage I'm leaning towards either Robz or mcmc. But I'm happy to defer to theorel's leadership if he feels strongly enough about one of the other two.
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I agree that today's lynch should be Robz, mcmc, liopoil or Dsell.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of terribly much Robz has done this game, other than the tracking mcmc thing, which I still think was Towny of him, even if mcmc turns out to be Maquis. Although I do think the fact that I can't remember much of what he's done is a little strange - he's normally in the spotlight.
That's pretty harsh. I think I've been really active this game. I did a lot of work to try and stop the Cuzz lynch, though ultimately ended up supporting it. I built cases against shraeye and Eevee (both of which were wrong). I pushed for the Glooble lynch over the liopoil lynch yesterday which turned out to be accurate. I've been very involved this game. I've made my case against liopoil today--and I'll try to make it again.
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I agree that today's lynch should be Robz, mcmc, liopoil or Dsell.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of terribly much Robz has done this game, other than the tracking mcmc thing, which I still think was Towny of him, even if mcmc turns out to be Maquis. Although I do think the fact that I can't remember much of what he's done is a little strange - he's normally in the spotlight.
That's pretty harsh. I think I've been really active this game. I did a lot of work to try and stop the Cuzz lynch, though ultimately ended up supporting it. I built cases against shraeye and Eevee (both of which were wrong). I pushed for the Glooble lynch over the liopoil lynch yesterday which turned out to be accurate. I've been very involved this game. I've made my case against liopoil today--and I'll try to make it again.
It wasn't meant to be harsh, and it wasn't meant to be a case. I was just thinking off the top of my head. Yeah, sure you've said you're almost certain liopoil is scum. But either I have a terrible memory or for most of this game you haven't done particularly memorable things, which I feel like is different from most games. I will need to re-read you when I can to work out if I think that makes you scum.
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I think a post count might be helpful, just for perspective:
ashersky: 388
Robz: 334
jimm: 210
yuma: 192
liopoil: 164
mcmcsalot: 115
theorel: 98
Since we know theorel is town, mcmcsalot is actually our biggest lurker. Followed by liopoil.
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I agree that today's lynch should be Robz, mcmc, liopoil or Dsell.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of terribly much Robz has done this game, other than the tracking mcmc thing, which I still think was Towny of him, even if mcmc turns out to be Maquis. Although I do think the fact that I can't remember much of what he's done is a little strange - he's normally in the spotlight.
That's pretty harsh. I think I've been really active this game. I did a lot of work to try and stop the Cuzz lynch, though ultimately ended up supporting it. I built cases against shraeye and Eevee (both of which were wrong). I pushed for the Glooble lynch over the liopoil lynch yesterday which turned out to be accurate. I've been very involved this game. I've made my case against liopoil today--and I'll try to make it again.
It wasn't meant to be harsh, and it wasn't meant to be a case. I was just thinking off the top of my head. Yeah, sure you've said you're almost certain liopoil is scum. But either I have a terrible memory or for most of this game you haven't done particularly memorable things, which I feel like is different from most games. I will need to re-read you when I can to work out if I think that makes you scum.
Then you have a terrible memory.
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Then you have a terrible memory.
Well that's entirely possible. However I'm not talking about post count or level of involvement. Most games I play with you I think, "Wow he's being so scummy! Well actually it's Robz, so maybe not." I just haven't thought that this game, and pre-re-read I find that a little strange.
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Liopoil case.
Early on Day 1, he names Glooble/Munch top town reads. Glooble/Munch are scum. He proceeds to always sheep people when he votes for others. He makes sure to signal support for people who are unvoting Glooble.
I pretty much agree with several of you who voted glooble and then unvoted. He has been helpful when he has posted. His defense has seemed honest. Everyone has been under scrutiny has given a good defense in my eyes actually (glooble, eevee, raerae).
Just after this, he says he supports lynching Eevee, shraeye, Cuzz, or Jimm. None of these people turned out to be scum (except Jimm, who is who knows).
Then, again, he specifically mentions his townreads on Glooble/Munch:
Galz and raerae I think are town. Leening scum on ash, but he is confusing. munch, glooble, and shraeye I lean town, but munch and shraeye I think are pushing the wagon too hard, in a scummy way.
That concludes Day 1. I think it is noteworthy that liopoil's most frequently appearing opinion is that Munch and Glooble are town. Again, these are the two people he mentions the most frequently. I can't imagine him getting this unlucky. Like, obviously we all have reads that turn out wrong. I maintained a townread on Glooble for awhile myself. But I never simultaenously had mega townreads on two specific people for the entire game and those two people turn out to be scummates with an unknown, likely third. That just doesn't happen.
I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
This is when liopoil starts to get in trouble.
Glooble does put a vote on liopoil, but he doesn't push or discuss it much, and Eevee is easily lynched instead.
Then, okay, Day 3. Munch and Glooble both go for ashersky. Liopoil heads for Dsell. Again, they follow the pattern of not criticizng or voting each other.
Then Munch votes for me and goes that way. Check out this vote count:
Vote Count 3.3
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (L-3): ashersky, yuma, theorel
liopoil (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
Not Voting (3): Robz888, Dsell, Jimmmmm
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
Then, things progress to this:
Unofficial:
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (3): ashersky, theorel, yuma (L-3)
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
liopoil (3): Robz888, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot (L-3)
Not Voting (1): Dsell
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
The leading lynch candidates are Glooble and liopoil. Really, The Munch and Glooble should work to get liopoil lynched at this point, it really could go either way. The only people not voting for one of these two are the three of them. But they don't. And I believe they don't because Glooble and liopoil are equally unsatisfactory lynches for this scum team.
Next, ashersky asks each of them and Dsell to confirm whether they will vote for Glooble or liopoil. PRessured to do so, liopoil votes for Glooble with no explanation. This is the kicker. Liopoil has explaiend all his votes up until now. Every one. This one, I just don't think he can come up with an explanation, which hey, that can happen when you go up against your scummate.
And also, I know this is something scum does, because shortly after, scum Glooble votes for liopoil without explanation!!!
They know it's over for one of them at this point, and the best thing to do is to get on each other's wagons, for distancing.
Liopoil has been the single biggest defender of both members of a confirmed scum team. There is another member of this scumteam. That person is clearly, clearly liopoil.
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(except Jimm, who is who knows).
Only if you're wrong about liopoil.
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Your case is pretty convincing though. theorel?
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Robz: your post count left out Dsell. Below is the post-count from you with Dsell added in.
ashersky: 388
Robz: 334
jimm: 210
yuma: 192
liopoil: 164
mcmcsalot: 115
theorel: 98
Dsell: 62
Dsell is actually the biggest lurker by a HUGE margin.
Here's what the case against liopoil looks like to me:
He claimed a town-read on Munch and Glooble.
He'd voted before without explanation (immediately after yuma suggested everyone vote on Day1). So the day3 argument lacks teeth.
Everything around Munch's "derailing" of the liopoil lynch reads to me like scum trying to get town-cred for a town lynch that they avoided.
liopoil was a nearly equally unsatisfactory lynch compared to Glooble (for Munch at least). He had claimed without explanation that he was 100% opposed to his lynch. Suppose liopoil flipped town. Then after a mass-claim Munch would have had to either make up a claim or claim the "other neighbor". We would be saying, "so is that why he was 100% opposed to the lynch?" and then, "why didn't you oppose it Day3 then?"
Also (as shown by Jimmmmm/yuma) Glooble was gearing up to vote for liopoil. He was providing arguments for why he would vote liopoil before he ever voted. So, his vote without explanation, is reasonable also. And as noted before, Munch was just largely absent from the forums. That's why I really find the end-of-day3 shenanigans to be a really weak argument.
Anyways, I still find liopoil's interaction with Glooble day1 really weird. I really don't get that town-read on Glooble, and how strong it was. It could be that he accidentally attached himself too strongly to his scumbuddy. I don't really buy Glooble and Munch's interaction with liopoil as scum interaction, they aren't newb-scum. Here's where I stand though:
Maquis-cop is able to be suspected as MU. If ashersky is MU, we want the Maquis alive. I'm already confirmed non-Maquis, so whereas any scum has reason to kill me, only Maquis are going to kill ashersky. Of course, they might leave him alive (for the WIFOM), but simply the fact that Maquis have to actually deal with whether to kill the biggest danger to themselves or more confirmed town makes me want to leave them alive.
Lots of end-game scenarios work out better with 2 scum than 1, especially given the even parity. We can afford an extra NK as town, as long as one scum-team hits scum. Which means that scum should be able to avoid the no-win scenario by shooting the other team and escaping lynching. Since if they let it go to 1-1-1 town isn't likely to help them win, while if they go to 1-2 they might convince town to give them the win. I'm hopeful that scum will go for the win and avoid the tie scenarios.
So, even with the doctor-possibility, I think it's strategically better to angle for the MU team. I think Dsell is the best target for that.
So, Vote: Dsell
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Unofficial vote count:
liopoil (3): Robz888, Dsell, mcmcsalot {L-2}
Dsell (3): yuma, ashersky, theorel {L-2}
Not Voting (4): Jimmmmm
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
Hmm. Hmm hmm hmm. Do I follow theorel onto Dsell and ask Robz or mcmc to do the same, or do I go for lio and ask ash to do the same? I'll probably end up sheeping theorel, but I'll have to give Dsell a re-read tomorrow before I do so.
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I have always been in favor of thinking the ic's reads are trustworthy but not infallible. While I think the case on liopoil is better and would rather lynch him, I do think dsell is scummy as well and would change my vote if it is required.
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The mood on Deep Space Nine is eerie and surreal. It really doesn't help that Worf is abusing his power and blasting Klingon opera over the intercomm perpetually.
Vote Count 4.3
liopoil (3): Robz888, Dsell, mcmcsalot {L-2}
Dsell (3): ashersky, yuma, theorel {L-2}
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
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I do think dsell is scummy as well
Why?
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I do think dsell is scummy as well
Why?
lol agreed, and I have already stated I find dsell scummier than robz, robz has been active and towny all game to me, dsell has been scummy and more importantly was given strong town status D1 and did nothing with it to help town, as opposed to theorel who used his early town cred(everyone had a town rad on him) and continued to be helpful all game.
I feel dsell is scummy for taking the town cred he got on d1 and doing nothing with it. Town would want to use that town cred to be vocal and give solid reads, multiple people treated him as an IC(stupidly) an he did nothing.
Jimm, read along and make sure you are caught up before posting your question, it is wholly unnecessary if you had read any of my last 4 posts...
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seems like a weak reason to me..... scum would take that towncred and build on it by talking too...
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I did nothing with my early towncred because I did not want to be nightkilled. If I had seized town status to lead the town, I would have been a guaranteed NK target. In fact, this is even true if I am scum. I was hoping that I would NOT be a target early, and that I could get to near the end of the game before being nightkilled. Absorbing a NK at the end of the game can be extremely powerful. Towards the beginning...not so much.
This was my gameplan. The fact that I truly have been very busy (that's lessening a bit now, thank goodness) plus a long day 1 plus me never really getting into this game have made it hard for me to transition back into really playing the game in a pro-town way. I actually think I have been pro-town, though, if not as much as I could have been. I've been calling for Munch's lynch since day 1, which I have to assume is what made them want to kill me.
But please ask yourself if scumDsell would throw away the credibility (deserved or not) that I got day 1 and lurk it all away. I don't like being reduced to meta-arguments, I don't like them! But I realize that my content here is not strong and certainly not easily defensible. I realize that LALL points to me. Still, I AM station and I AM a bad lynch for that reason.
I am throwing myself behind a Liopoil lynch. There is just too much evidence to ignore. I think it's altogether possible that his veteran scumpartners encouraged him to interact with them and support them. Maybe he did just what they wanted and it's backfiring, maybe he was overeager. But the interactions are just plain as day. If Lio is town and this is a coincidence, then we're extremely, extremely unlucky. But guys, we must not ignore this.
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I did nothing with my early towncred because I did not want to be nightkilled. If I had seized town status to lead the town, I would have been a guaranteed NK target.
This seems really weird logic to me. Scum wants to hit town PRs... but you weren't a town PR. So the best thing that you can do is try and be NK rather than a cop be NK. If you are town the best town play you could have done would be to still be active, try and be protown and then absorb a NK so that a PR doesn't get killed.
This just seems like you were playing for your own self preservation, which I get... nobody wants to die. But it isn't what I would call pro-town play. And like you say, scum wants to stay alive as well... but for them that is how they win. I think this fits the bill more as you being scum than town.
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I did nothing with my early towncred because I did not want to be nightkilled. If I had seized town status to lead the town, I would have been a guaranteed NK target.
This seems really weird logic to me. Scum wants to hit town PRs... but you weren't a town PR. So the best thing that you can do is try and be NK rather than a cop be NK. If you are town the best town play you could have done would be to still be active, try and be protown and then absorb a NK so that a PR doesn't get killed.
This just seems like you were playing for your own self preservation, which I get... nobody wants to die. But it isn't what I would call pro-town play. And like you say, scum wants to stay alive as well... but for them that is how they win. I think this fits the bill more as you being scum than town.
I was playing for the only situation in which I actually AM a PR...the end end game, when absorbing a NK can easily be the difference between a win and a loss.
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Yuma, did you get your Robz re-read done?
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The mood on Deep Space Nine is eerie and surreal. It really doesn't help that Worf is abusing his power and blasting Klingon opera over the intercomm perpetually.
Vote Count 4.3
liopoil (3): Robz888, Dsell, mcmcsalot {L-2}
Dsell (3): ashersky, yuma, theorel {L-2}
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is February 21st at midnight.
I think we can assume lio will vote Dsell.
Jimmmmm, where are you leaning? Theo prefers the Dsell lynch to Robz, and definitely not Lio.
If we get into night soon, I can be around for the start of the next day before I go VLA.
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That said, yuma, I see your point and I realize that I really haven't played great. Being deathproof was only part of it, like I said, I've been very busy and that's causing apathy towards this game.
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Liopoil case.
To respond to your case Robz, a couple of things
1. lio's read on themunch makes sense. I am a neighbor. munch and raerae were my neighbors, but they are dead now. We are confirmed non-members of the mirror-universe scumteam.
It appears that he knew from the outset that no one in his scum team were MU, so compared to everyone else that lio looked at themunch had a 50% less chance of being scum. This is further shown by Themunch's 100% townread on lio. Because themunch was marquis and because themunch apparently knew that lio wasn't MU, he could post that read w/o any qualms.
2. lio's read on Glooble actually reflects someone else... you, Robz. You had a townread on Glooble throughout nearly all of day1, day and only joined onto the glooble wagon late. Basically this is your whole rationale for voting glooble... To me, Glooble starts out on okay-ish territory (despite his lurking), with some pseudo-solid stuff against Jimm and ashersky, and then becomes less and less present with each passing day.
compared to lio's vote w/o explantion yours really isn't much better. Yes it is something, but not much...
3. lastly you still haven't looked at this from the other perspective... at least I don't think you have. I just don't see themunch behaving that way toward a scumpartner in lio. It doesn't make sense as that sort of narrative. I have seen themunch as scum and that is something I don't think he would have done. What does make sense is the narrative that themunch knew 100% that lio was town and tried to use that to his benefit.
4. one of your biggest failings in trying to pin down the threesome is that both glooble and themunch were lurking late day3, both were lurking big time. So trying to analyze their voting or lack of voting I dont' think provides much info.
Themunch's last post was at February 02, 2013, 06:43:40 pm. at that time the vote count was at:
ashersky (1): Glooble
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, mcmcsalot, yuma (L-2)
Robz888 (2): TheMunch, liopoil
liopoil (1): Robz888
Not Voting (2): Dsell, Jimmmmm
lio does not appear to be in any danger of being lynched. It is only later that a wagon develops on him.
Look I understand why you think lio fits this narrative, and he might actually be scum, but I would be very very surprised. What I am having a hard time understanding is how you can be so sure... "99% sure." the facts dont' support that sort of surety. I am beginning to think that you are trying to force a mislynch that while based on relatively good evidence doesn't hold up once placed under scrutiny.
I am changing my vote to vote: robz
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Yuma's pointed out a good fact that I hadn't picked up on, and that is Robz's "reads" on Glooble throughout the game.
Theo, what do you think? We agreed Robz's lynch would be the most informative, and there's a definitely possibility he's a scum tracker.
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If you read my case, I mentioned the fact that I had a town read on Glooble throughout day 1 and day 2, and only turned against him after re-reading him on day 3 when I was tyring to decide between Glooble and liopoil. You'll note that we were at that point split between them, I re-read them both, and decided Glooble was narrowly scummier.
I don't fault liopoil for having a townread on Glooble. I fault him for having his two strongest reads being simultaneous, constant town reads on Munch/Glooble, both of whom he was wrong about, both of whom are on a scum team together.
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On a separate note, Dsell's excuses for his lurking, by the way, are absolute crap. He thought he had some duty to try and survive because he is Mr. Important PR? Please. Actual contributions are worth much, much more anyway. Instead we have nothing to go on because he's hugely lurked his way here.
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You know what, I'm fine with being lynched. Then yuma can LR, and we will have Jimm, mcmcsalot, Dsell, theorel, ashersky, and liopoil left. Then you guys can, you know, actually listen to me, and close out this game by lynching liopoil and then probably Dsell.
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On a separate note, Dsell's excuses for his lurking, by the way, are absolute crap. He thought he had some duty to try and survive because he is Mr. Important PR? Please. Actual contributions are worth much, much more anyway. Instead we have nothing to go on because he's hugely lurked his way here.
This is a big point against Dsell, where my vote currently lies.
I think his actions overall have been scummier than Robz, who has been very townie and pro-town all game.
I will also again state how I was the ONLY person who refused to give him free IC status for his one liner at the beginning of the game. If I'm wrong and he's town, whatever, but he's no IC.
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You know what, I'm fine with being lynched. Then yuma can LR, and we will have Jimm, mcmcsalot, Dsell, theorel, ashersky, and liopoil left. Then you guys can, you know, actually listen to me, and close out this game by lynching liopoil and then probably Dsell.
You are basically a named VT, right? I mean, no actions to take at night? If we're losing a townie today, that's better than a PR, right?
That's my argument for why Lio is still an okay lynch today, though. Worst thing that happens is we lose a neighbor with no neighbors, but who has been way less helpful than Robz888.
I offered myself up as a lynch, if you all fear I may be MU hiding behind the badge.
The plus to lynching Robz is he's one of the three who could be either scum faction.
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Robz is a bad lynch, at least for today. Come on people, Liopoil is a much better lynch.
Sorry if you think my reasons for lurking are bad. I am not going to try to defend them, they're not good reasons. But they are my reasons.
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There are good reasons to lynch both Robz and Dsell.
I've come around to Dsell as a better lynch. Robz' arguments are bad (IMO), but I'm not convinced that they're scum-motivated. They feel more like Robz-bad reasons than scum-bad reasons.
Robz, if you think we should lynch Dsell after liopoil, then let's just lynch him NOW. I'm really only checking this thread periodically to see if the lynch is finished yet so we can get an alignment.
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There are good reasons to lynch both Robz and Dsell.
I've come around to Dsell as a better lynch. Robz' arguments are bad (IMO), but I'm not convinced that they're scum-motivated. They feel more like Robz-bad reasons than scum-bad reasons.
Robz, if you think we should lynch Dsell after liopoil, then let's just lynch him NOW. I'm really only checking this thread periodically to see if the lynch is finished yet so we can get an alignment.
Well, I can't get enough support for liopoil without you, so if I'm really not going to change your mind, I guess I have no choice. Vote: Dsell
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well if I can't get theorel on board, I'll go back to vote: dsell But in putting down my last thoughts I would urge to not lynch lio tomorrow. Instead look toward mcmc and Robz. I still think Jimmmm is scummy, but his role claim basically makes him unlynchable, which further makes him scummy as well. ash I don't know about. His willingness to offer himself up for lynch tomorrow makes me think he probably isn't scum, but the only way to find out is to take him up on the offer... but I find Robz or mcmc or even Jimmm to be more likely scum than him.
I think theorel is indicating that we are ready for a hammer, so lio or mcmc or Jimmmm now would be the time for it.
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vote: dsell let's hope he's scum
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Thread Locked.
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"Who's that new girl in the Starfleet uniform? We've never seen her before!" the few remaining denizens of the promenade grumble.
"She must be a mirror universe or a Maquis or a changeling or something!"
"Get her!"
"Noooooooo!" shouts Worf, but his cries are in vain. No sooner had his love resurrected in a new body then she was thrown out the airlock. This time there was no saving the symbiote.
Dsell has been lynched. He was Ezri Dax, the station-aligned 1-shot deathproof.
Vote Count 4.3
liopoil (1): Dsell
Dsell (5): ashersky, yuma, theorel, Robz888, mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Night actions are due in 24 hours.
This is a change from the normal 48 hour deadline.
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At this point, it's just getting predictable.
"Computer," says Captain Worf. "Analyze life sign scans against archived scans from last night. Who died?"
"Processing." says the computer. "Chief Miles Edward O'Brien's life signs are no longer registering."
A search of his quarters turns up, no body - he appears to have been vaporized. It's probably just as well he sent Keiko and the kids away on the last transport to Bajor. The search does turn up sealed orders from Admiral Ross containing a new way to configure a tricorder to scan for the quantum signature of the mirror universe.
Theorel has died. He was Chief Miles Edward O'Brien, the Station-aligned Mirror Universe Cop.
Day 5 begins. With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Not Voting (6): ashersky, yuma, Robz888, mcmcsalot, Jimmmmm, and liopoil
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Okay, so last time both scum teams targeted the same person it was understandable through the flavor. This flavor does not suggest that but that means a scum team took no kill correct? If someone makes a nk and is killed that night does the night kill go through? Baisically could munch have been the last member of maquis and have made the kill the night he died.
Also do we think munch was actually the last member of that scum team when joth said that scum was too powerful. I think it's possible the last maquis member didnt kill someone in an attemp to not get lynched today, the person who would be worried about this is liopoil.
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Yuma, why no LR?
Jim, why no doctoring of our confirmed townie cop?
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Also Ash should probably let us know who he investigated.
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But ash wasn't so much the important cop here; the important cop was theorel. And I'm not sure why he died. The one thing we certainly had the ability to do was keep theorel alive. Ahem, LR and doctor.
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Where the hell is everybody?
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Lio is cleared.
I'm good with a vote: Yuma.
As theo said yesterday, no LR means scum!yuma.
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vote: yuma makes sense to me, I think we were pretty clear he should LR no matter what.
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If we have two MU we are at mylo now. So basically if jimmmmm-robz is the MU scumteam they just won.
let's wait for Yuma to talk.
flavor indicates that either Jimmmmm successfully saved someone or there is only one team. Jimmmm, who did you save?
Vote: no lynch
We demand that Yuma LR tonight after not lynching. If he doesn't do it we kill him tomorrow, and got a 1-1 trade with scum. If he does LR then it's like we lynched him but got to skip night.
We pretty much get a double day. If Yuma is town we lynch a townie and someone else. If Yuma is scum we lynch someone of scum choice (night), but get scum the next day.
besides, at Mylo it is often a good idea to no lynch anyway right? decrease number needed to lynch and the number of suspects.
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Okay, everybody hold on. Let's stop running our mouths about what yuma and Jim did or didn't do until they explain it themselves.
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Okay, everybody hold on. Let's stop running our mouths about what yuma and Jim did or didn't do until they explain it themselves.
I got a result on Liopoil that he is NOT maquis. That means no LR last night. That means yuma lied, or was roleblocked, but really, who's the roleblocker then?
You could be, and you blocked mcmc and claimed he did nothing when you tracked him.
Jimmmmm could be, and is just flat out lying.
Neither of those sound right.
If we have two MU we are at mylo now. So basically if jimmmmm-robz is the MU scumteam they just won.
let's wait for Yuma to talk.
flavor indicates that either Jimmmmm successfully saved someone or there is only one team. Jimmmm, who did you save?
Vote: no lynch
We demand that Yuma LR tonight after not lynching. If he doesn't do it we kill him tomorrow, and got a 1-1 trade with scum. If he does LR then it's like we lynched him but got to skip night.
We pretty much get a double day. If Yuma is town we lynch a townie and someone else. If Yuma is scum we lynch someone of scum choice (night), but get scum the next day.
besides, at Mylo it is often a good idea to no lynch anyway right? decrease number needed to lynch and the number of suspects.
No no lynch. That's bad.
What you are saying about yuma is what we said last night.
Best guess on 1 kill? They both chose to kill IC. Second best guess? If there is a roleblocker, he's all that's left on his team, and he used it instead of killing last night.
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So the gamble is "roleblocker or yuma lied." It wasn't a redirect, since I investigated my actual target.
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Ash, I think you're right, I'd just like to hear what yuma/Jimm have to say for themselves.
I'm particularly annoyed that our IC died, when either doctor protection or LR should have protected him. If either/both had performed optimally from town perspective, theorel should have lived.
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you're suggesting that one of us lied about our roles. hmmm.
since I'm cleared now I didn't lie. I'm a real neighbor.
Ashersky is a real cop.
I guess one of mcmc/robz/Yuma/jimmmmm could have lied about their role.
We weren't terribly clear though..... and I really can see mcmc or robz having lied about their role. Let's wait for Jimmmmmm and Yuma.
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you're suggesting that one of us lied about our roles. hmmm.
since I'm cleared now I didn't lie. I'm a real neighbor.
Ashersky is a real cop.
I guess one of mcmc/robz/Yuma/jimmmmm could have lied about their role.
We weren't terribly clear though..... and I really can see mcmc or robz having lied about their role. Let's wait for Jimmmmmm and Yuma.
Okay, let's say I am scum roleblocker. I roleblocked yuma, so I can do my kill of someone other than yuma. I killed theorel... who Jimm didn't bother trying to save?
Or let's say I blocked jimm to prevent him from protecting theorel. Well, yuma's LR should have meant yuma takes the protection and the kill and lives. Unless there's two kills from still present multiple scum teams, and then yuma dies instead of theorel, which is still better.
I guess it's possible scum roleblocked yuma and some other scum killed the person jimm protected, which wasn't theorel for some reason he's going to have to explain.
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maybe maquis did no kill, for two reasons:
1) to use their power. They are the only one left on the team, so they couldn't do both.
2) to make it look like they don't exist. I'm not totally sure what the benefit of this is, but it seems like it could be a reason.
Why is no lynching necessarily a bad idea?
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There are three possibilities for why I didn't protect theorel:
1) I was roleblocked.
2) I had no shots left.
3) I was assuming yuma would LR and two scum kills would direct onto him, therefore using my only remaining shot was pointless, so I held onto it.
Do we really need me to say which one of these is true?
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I would like to hear from yuma. Although claiming LR and offering to use it knowing full well that you can't seems like terrible scum play. I don't know. It's pretty clear that today's lynch should be one of yuma, Robz and mcmc. Maybe there's some compelling argument that would add ash to that list, but unlikely. At this stage I think it's most likely that every remaining scum is one of those three.
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There are three possibilities for why I didn't protect theorel:
1) I was roleblocked.
2) I had no shots left.
3) I was assuming yuma would LR and two scum kills would direct onto him, therefore using my only remaining shot was pointless, so I held onto it.
Do we really need me to say which one of these is true?
I'm just confused. I don't know which of these things is the case, do you think it's obvious? Or are you saying it's not obvious, but you think it's better if you don't say? You might be right about that, I guess. It's just a little suspect, given theorel dying. Though we know you aren't MU.
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If I have no shots left I want scum to think I do, so they maybe kill me instead of a cop or something, although that's less important today. If I do have shots left I want scum to think I don't, so it's more likely that I will use it effectively.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed TOWN?)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - Beloved Princess/Vadek Antos (Confirmed NOT MU)
Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm
Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
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I can't find jimmmmm's character on the site. When I searched Vadek Antos it only showed Bareil Antos and a planet named antos.
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The name I was given was Vedek Bareil Antos (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bareil_Antos). I guess Vadek is a title or something.
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The name I was given was Vedek Bareil Antos (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Bareil_Antos). I guess Vaedek is a title or something.
FTFM
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thanks. The only connection to beloved I can find is that his character was so popular that fans campaigned for him to come back to life on the show after he died...
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Yuma had a brain implant which let him be able to bear lots of pain. The implant broke and was removed later. seems like this could represent the lightning rod...
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robz, I think your role is kasidy yates, not kasida yates?
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I mean flavor name.
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robz, I think your role is kasidy yates, not kasida yates?
It's Kasidy Yates.
But these things don't matter.
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Yuma had a brain implant which let him be able to bear lots of pain. The implant broke and was removed later. seems like this could represent the lightning rod...
Flavor doesn't relate to role I don't think. That's what Jo said at least. Right?
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Jo didn't say that. and I feel like they do. mine did.
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Jo didn't say that. and I feel like they do. mine did.
Never mind. I mis-remembered.
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mcmc is a Klingon. they're the type of person that would want to kill whoever killed them I'd think. then again, ash is a Klingon too.
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Updated Living:
1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed TOWN?)
10. mcmcsalot - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - Beloved Princess/Vadek Antos (Confirmed NOT MU)
Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm
Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
This looks right. Liopoil is confirmed town based on investigations by both me and Theo, right?
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Yes.
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I used my LR last night, but as we can tell from theorel's death and ash's investigation it did not go through. From what I understand of the LR it can only be blocked if I am directly targeted with a block, such as a roleblocker or a jailkeep that prevents me from using the role. There is no roleblocker or Jk currently claimed--I think Glooble was roleblocker, but he is dead--So someone must be lying.
At this point I am just glad that we aren't at lylo right... 8 alive. So mislynching me--which is what I would do if I was in the position that you all are in--won't lose the game for town. This is why I don't like mass claims... it gives too much power to scum and allows them to manipulate night actions in a way that favors them. So you lynch me, 7 alive... Either 1 NK or 2 NKs. So 6 alive with 1 (2) scum or 5 alive with 2 (3) scum (assuming scum don't hit each other and assuming there are currently at most 2 scum total left alive, in parenthesis is three). That isn't a great place to be for town. So I would urge you to not lynch me, but I can totally understand why you would go through that vein.
I just ask that you allow me enough time to compile my reads and thoughts on the players so that you have at least that to look back on tomorrow. This may take a day or so to do.
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mcmc should unvote. I'm not going to, because I want my vote to be somewhere while I'm on a plane.
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Unvote if Yuma doesn't have a LR left we shouldn't no lynch.
Yuma there are only six of us. We are at Mylo, unless there are two teams, or only 4 scum.
Vote: Robz. I would also lynch mcmc.
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I'm actually leaning toward voting for either Robz or mcmc. But in order for yuma not to be scum, there needs to be a Roleblocker.
It can't really be mcmc if he didn't target anyone Night 1.
It probably isn't Robz because his Tracker claim would be way too risky unless he was on mcmc's team.
Can't be lio if he's confirmed Town.
Can't be ash since he's the Cop.
Which leaves me. And I know I'm not a Roleblocker, even if no one else does. So as far as I can see, yuma can't've been Roleblocked/Jailkept, which brings me back to thinking that yuma is scum for not LRing. But it's still a strange and risky claim if he's scum.
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UNLESS Robz Roleblocked mcmc Night 1.
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What's usually the result if someone Tracks someone who tried to target someone but was Roleblocked?
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Jimmmmm, Yuma could be scum that lied about using LR.
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Yuma there are only six of us. We are at Mylo, unless there are two teams, or only 4 scum.
I am sorry... I was looking at the final lynch count from day5... but yes we are at 6. that changes things...
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I'm actually leaning toward voting for either Robz or mcmc. But in order for yuma not to be scum, there needs to be a Roleblocker.
It can't really be mcmc if he didn't target anyone Night 1.
It probably isn't Robz because his Tracker claim would be way too risky unless he was on mcmc's team.
Can't be lio if he's confirmed Town.
Can't be ash since he's the Cop.
Which leaves me. And I know I'm not a Roleblocker, even if no one else does. So as far as I can see, yuma can't've been Roleblocked/Jailkept, which brings me back to thinking that yuma is scum for not LRing. But it's still a strange and risky claim if he's scum.
If I had to wager a guess I would guess that any roleblocker/JK would be a 1-shot just like the other powers in this game have been. so that does nothing for mcmc...
Honestly if I had to guess anyone for this it would be Jimmmmm. But unfortunately he has the perfect claim that makes him unlynchable.
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If we are at mylo, lynching jim is no worse than lynching anyone else.
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I mostly don't believe Yuma, because I don't expect there is another roleblocker. Here are all the options were that to be so:
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Roleblocker
Verdict: Doubtful. These are just weird teams. They are like the same except the Maquis are really a little better off. Like, why give the teams each a roleblocker but then not the same other role? It's just weird.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Roleblocker + X
Verdict: Even more doubtful. MUs are really, really a lot better.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + ???
MU: Rolecop + Roleblocker
Verdict: Now the Maquis look too strong, and we have a missing kill from last night.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + ???
MU: Rolecop + Roleblocker + ???
Verdict: Now we have a missing kill and like there are 3 scum among me/Jimm/mcmc/ashersky/yuma. Scary!
I just can't imagine having two roleblockers.
Now, maybe a Jailkeeper. But Jailkeeper just makes those teams look even MORE imbalanced.
So I expect the simple explanation is the best: Yuma is lying.
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Now, maybe a Jailkeeper. But Jailkeeper just makes those teams look even MORE imbalanced.
So I expect the simple explanation is the best: Yuma is lying.
I understand why you would think that. Like I said I would think the same way if I were in your shoes. But let's at least look at the the teams with JK instead of Roleblocker...
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + JK
Maybe. MU seems a bit more powered here, but not by much.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Jailkeeper + X
I agree here, unbalanced and unlikely...
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Jailkeeper
This one depends on what the X is... and yes we are missing a kill? Did we ever find out if Jimmmm in fact used his doc power on theorel (or someone else) and stopped one shot from happening, but not both?
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Jailkeeper + X
This one I hope is not true, but could be depending on what X is.... and same situation with the night kills.
And isn't this possible as well?
Marquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + Jailkeeper
MU: Rolecop + X + X
This one is unlikely as well, but still possible?
But what about with just any other power role? Say 1-shot tracker, what does that look like?
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Tracker
Seems about as likely good as the JK scenario
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Tracker + X
MU appears to have more power here.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Tracker
Depending on the power of X again... but similar.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Tracker + X
Similar to above again
Marquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + Tracker
MU: Rolecop + X + X
Similar to above once again....
I think putting any role into the above would result in something similar.... I think?
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This one depends on what the X is... and yes we are missing a kill? Did we ever find out if Jimmmm in fact used his doc power on theorel (or someone else) and stopped one shot from happening, but not both?
He isn't saying. And I assume he won't, unless ashersky and liopoil press him to. (Well, I guess liopoil is actually the only IC.)
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Jailkeeper + X
But what about with just any other power role? Say 1-shot tracker, what does that look like?
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Tracker
Seems about as likely good as the JK scenario
Sure, that would be balanced. It's just not possible. The only roleblocker in the above scenario was dead before the night of your roleblocking, remember? So this setup would fail to offer a plausible scenario for how your LR didn't work. In the above scenario, you are a liar.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Tracker + X
MU appears to have more power here.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Tracker
Depending on the power of X again... but similar.
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Tracker + X
Similar to above again
Marquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + Tracker
MU: Rolecop + X + X
Similar to above once again....
I think putting any role into the above would result in something similar.... I think?
The rest of those don't make too much sense to me.
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I'm actually leaning toward voting for either Robz or mcmc. But in order for yuma not to be scum, there needs to be a Roleblocker.
It can't really be mcmc if he didn't target anyone Night 1.
It probably isn't Robz because his Tracker claim would be way too risky unless he was on mcmc's team.
Can't be lio if he's confirmed Town.
Can't be ash since he's the Cop.
Which leaves me. And I know I'm not a Roleblocker, even if no one else does. So as far as I can see, yuma can't've been Roleblocked/Jailkept, which brings me back to thinking that yuma is scum for not LRing. But it's still a strange and risky claim if he's scum.
If I had to wager a guess I would guess that any roleblocker/JK would be a 1-shot just like the other powers in this game have been. so that does nothing for mcmc...
Honestly if I had to guess anyone for this it would be Jimmmmm. But unfortunately he has the perfect claim that makes him unlynchable.
Yeah that could be true, but Galz' wasn't 1-shot, but you're right that there's no reason to assume mcmc isn't 1-shot Roleblocker/JK.
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Jimmmmm, Yuma could be scum that lied about using LR.
Well that's the obvious conclusion and the one that we have to come to if it doesn't make sense for anyone else to have Roleblocked him. My problem with this is that it's super weird for scum to claim LR and offer to use it.
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I doubt we have two Roleblockers, so what we're talking about here would most likely be a Jailkeeper. Sure, it could be only 1-shot, in which case it could be mcmc. Otherwise, it's either Robz, or yuma's lying.
From my point of view, assuming we have two scum left, it would seem that the most likely scenario is that one of Robz and yuma is scum, and the other is mcmc. Based on this, I propose lynching mcmc. I had a scum read on him for most of the game until Robz' Tracker thing, but that seems less relevant now.
In fact, Vote: mcmc. I'd like to hear what lio and ash think.
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Yuma had a brain implant which let him be able to bear lots of pain. The implant broke and was removed later. seems like this could represent the lightning rod...
Flavor doesn't relate to role I don't think. That's what Jo said at least. Right?
I know you acknowledged mis-remembering, but as far as I know each role has a flavourful reason for doing what it does. If I'm lynched, the Bajorans on the station spend the next day doing some sort of mourning ritual. The neighbourhood was because they are all the same species or something. Dsell was 1-shot Deathproof because of some weird symbiote thing. What flavourful reason was given to you for being a 1-shot Tracker?
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Yuma had a brain implant which let him be able to bear lots of pain. The implant broke and was removed later. seems like this could represent the lightning rod...
Flavor doesn't relate to role I don't think. That's what Jo said at least. Right?
I know you acknowledged mis-remembering, but as far as I know each role has a flavourful reason for doing what it does. If I'm lynched, the Bajorans on the station spend the next day doing some sort of mourning ritual. The neighbourhood was because they are all the same species or something. Dsell was 1-shot Deathproof because of some weird symbiote thing. What flavourful reason was given to you for being a 1-shot Tracker?
Uh, I'm a ship captain or something. I think I run reconnaissance missions.
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Uh, I'm a ship captain or something. I think I run reconnaissance missions.
Missions or mission?
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Yuma had a brain implant which let him be able to bear lots of pain. The implant broke and was removed later. seems like this could represent the lightning rod...
Flavor doesn't relate to role I don't think. That's what Jo said at least. Right?
I know you acknowledged mis-remembering, but as far as I know each role has a flavourful reason for doing what it does. If I'm lynched, the Bajorans on the station spend the next day doing some sort of mourning ritual. The neighbourhood was because they are all the same species or something. Dsell was 1-shot Deathproof because of some weird symbiote thing. What flavourful reason was given to you for being a 1-shot Tracker?
Actually I'd like everyone to answer this question.
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Uh, I'm a ship captain or something. I think I run reconnaissance missions.
Missions or mission?
... Multiple missions. Kassidy is a ship captain who appeared frequently.
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I think this is the least worthwhile line of questioning we have at our disposals. We are all sci fi characters appearing in a multi-year TV show. I'm pretty sure you could justify a wide range of powers that would still keep within the theme of any given character.
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Meanwhile, we have compiled like a bunch of investigations, suspicions, night actions, etc. That's the important stuff.
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Scum JK sounds unlikely.
I still think Yuma lied.
If I die tonight and the game continues, I say Jimmmmm is lying.
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Scum JK sounds unlikely.
I still think Yuma lied.
If I die tonight and the game continues, I say Jimmmmm is lying.
I agree. It looks like you have to convince the IC you created, though.
Vote: Yuma
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For jimmmmm: I am worf. Self explanatory there for being a cop.
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Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker + X
MU: Rolecop + Jailkeeper + X
But what about with just any other power role? Say 1-shot tracker, what does that look like?
Maquis: Neighbor + Roleblocker
MU: Rolecop + Tracker
Seems about as likely good as the JK scenario
Sure, that would be balanced. It's just not possible. The only roleblocker in the above scenario was dead before the night of your roleblocking, remember? So this setup would fail to offer a plausible scenario for how your LR didn't work. In the above scenario, you are a liar.
that is a good point, but it isn't really the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was that if you slipped in just about any other role into the "roleblocker/JK" spot, you get similar looking potential scum teams in regard to balance.
Mostly what I am getting at is that you think my claim unlikely because it doesn't fit with any of the potential scum set scenarios that exist. However, I say that if you put just about any other role instead into those scum sets that they are about just as implausible.
If you think I am scum, what role do you think I am? scum!yuma would have to fit in somewhere and it would probably make things a little, or a lot, imbalanced just like putting in JK or RB did into the scenarios above.
At this point I am willing to vote for Jimmmmm, mcmc, or Robz. but it appears that I am the most likely candidate for a lynch.
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Okay the thing that makes me think Yuma is lying is regardless of balance why would a one-shot jailkeeper decide to use that shot on the LR which in effect makes sure someone not on there scum team does, and blocks all investigations. Then wouldn't you save jailkeep for jimm's possible doc.
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Okay I guess yuma is the way we're leaning. Not my first choice, but up there and I can see that it's unlikely he was Roleblocked or Jailkept. lio, what do you think?
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What do we think of Robz' apparent confusion after the night's events?
Yuma, why no LR?
Jim, why no doctoring of our confirmed townie cop?
But ash wasn't so much the important cop here; the important cop was theorel. And I'm not sure why he died. The one thing we certainly had the ability to do was keep theorel alive. Ahem, LR and doctor.
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What is there to think about it? We presumably had two methods of preventing theorel from dying last night, and I expected at least the LR to go off. I was not (and am still not) very keen on the idea of their being a second roleblocker somewhere, so the night result made little sense.
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well I will join our IC in voting vote: Robz
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Unofficial vote count (IIRC off the top of my head).
yuma (3): Robz, mcmc, ash (L-1)
Robz (2): liopoil, yuma
mcmc (1): Jimmmmm
Takes 4 to lynch,
We need liopoil to weigh in. If he's happy with a Robz lynch, I'll join him on that, otherwise one of us can hammer yuma.
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well, I think I'm still on no lynch. Vote: mcmc. I might have been on robz before, not sure.
between mcmc and robz I really am not sure which I'd rather lynch. Leaning mcmc because his claim is more likely to be fake. I would happily lynch robz too.
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If Yuma is town, someone lied about their role.
In that case, Yuma, ash, and I definatly didn't.
Jimmmmm I believe because he hinted at it wayyyy back at the beginning of the game, and I don't see him making up the doc thing. plus he's conf. not MU which makes him unlikely to be scum.
that leaves mcmc and robz, both of which I think very easily could have lied, and I think are scum.
robz probably only would have lied if he was MU with mcmc. This seems likely to me though, because:
there was only one kill tonight
they are my top two scumreads
robz is more likely to claim if mcmc is his partner.
mcmc could have lied on either team. His claim we decided was probably a bad idea for town. However, it is a great idea for scum. It makes it so that he won't be killed by the other team for sure. this is why I am voting mcmc right now. He also totally sheeped the case on me, though I am not one to be talking about sheeping.
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Come on. Yuma is totally lying. It makes no sense for their to be another roleblocker (jailkeeper or anything else). And if there was, it doesn't make much sense for him to roleblock Yuma! He would have to have the ability to both roleblock yuma AND shoot the cop that investigates him. Okay, let's assume that's even logistically possible. Well, what if Jimm doctors that cop?
No, it makes so sense. If scum would just let yuma LR, yuma might or might not die, and they are guaranteed to not have an investigation of them. Then they can just roleblock/kill whatever the cop they have to worry about on a future night.
Roleblocking yuma would be taking an unnecessary risk of a cop investigating scum and surviving.
Really, I think the most logical thing is that yuma lied. No one has put forward an alternative non-fringe theory.
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Jimmmmm's don't lynch me thing from D1 rings true for the beloved role. Good catch.
I think robz is townier than mcmc.
I still think Yuma lied, but, a JK mcmc could have stopped it.
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let's see, from maquis roleblocker who can't block and kill mcmc's point of view:
by blocking Yuma there will still be a NK, but instead of it being Yuma it will be probably theorel. There will also be a good chance that we will lynch Yuma tomorrow as a result of it.
seems like a good reason to block Yuma to me. The same reasoning would apply from robz's point of view.
even if Yuma is scum I still think that one of (mcmc-robz) is scum. If we assume that at least one of them is scum no matter what then we can also say that there is a very good chance that the scum one lied, meaning we still have a misc. role out there. if Yuma is town I think they are both scum. so from my point of view, by lynching one of them:
if Yuma is town we hit scum no matter what.
if Yuma is scum we ~50-50 hit scum.
If we lynch Yuma the chance that we hit scum is equal to the chance that Yuma is scum (duh)
So we should only lynch Yuma if we think there is a greater than 66% chance that he is scum (a little more even because we have a more than 50-50 chance of hitting scum in robz-mcmc even if Yuma is scum)
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MU want Theo dead. Block or jail Yuma and kill Theo or rely on other team to kill Theo.
Thing is, maquis should have targeted me. That's an argument for an underpowered two-man maquis team.
Why would maquis save Yuma?
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maybe they don't want us to think they exist. If ash died we would know that there was maquis. Probably not though...
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Okay, maybe yuma lied. It's possible. But someone answer me this: why would scum yuma claim LR and offer to do it, knowing full well he won't and will be "caught out" for it. I know I know, WIFOM, he wants us to make this argument, whatever, but it's so risky, especially if he's the last scum on his team, which seems to be the case for any remaining scum.
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I don't know why Robz and others are so quick to discount the idea that scum could kill and use a night action at the same time...
from the mafia wiki:
A Mafia Roleblocker may or may not be allowed to perform the mafia kill the same Night they are also performing a roleblock. (This applies to other Mafia roles as well.) The decision of whether to allow the last Mafioso to kill and use their role at the same time is usually based on what would make the game better-balanced. In Newbie games, the Mafia Roleblocker is allowed to perform both only if they are the last member of their team left.
joth never answered my question... well he did by not answering and rightly so as this is isn't an open setup, but still to completely discount the idea seems too farfetched for me and I don't understand why people think it is.
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well, I think I'm still on no lynch. Vote: mcmc. I might have been on robz before, not sure.
between mcmc and robz I really am not sure which I'd rather lynch. Leaning mcmc because his claim is more likely to be fake. I would happily lynch robz too.
I would in fact prefer mcmc over robz, so i am glad you feel this way as well. vote: mcmc
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I don't know why Robz and others are so quick to discount the idea that scum could kill and use a night action at the same time...
from the mafia wiki:
A Mafia Roleblocker may or may not be allowed to perform the mafia kill the same Night they are also performing a roleblock. (This applies to other Mafia roles as well.) The decision of whether to allow the last Mafioso to kill and use their role at the same time is usually based on what would make the game better-balanced. In Newbie games, the Mafia Roleblocker is allowed to perform both only if they are the last member of their team left.
joth never answered my question... well he did by not answering and rightly so as this is isn't an open setup, but still to completely discount the idea seems too farfetched for me and I don't understand why people think it is.
I don't discount it. Mcmcsalot or Robz would be the Roleblocker/JK.
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If Yuma is scum LR, he wouldn't use it until he knew there were no other kills around, right?
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From Maquis point of view, would it be worth it to forgo making a kill in order to JK yuma and implicate him and make him seem to be lying? That could seem to almost guarantee a mislynch (or at least a non-Maquis lynch). Of course, it increases the risk that ash could find them out. But not so much as it might seem, since you could pretty much guarantee that ash was going to investigate either lio or me to at worst give one of us IC status.
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So mcmcsalot and Yuma both at L-1. Any scum looking to quickhammer?
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that's mcmc and yuma both at L-1, everyone voting. Just like in my other game! :P
who is potentially going to switch over? not Yuma or mcmc. probably not robz. I see the case on Yuma and appreciate it, I'm just more confident in mcmc. So very unlikely me, although maybe if we wouldn't otherwise get a lynch. Ash?
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Yuma lying about LR is tough to swallow, but is also most likely.
At this point, I think we have two scum in {Yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz} and I think Robz has been towniest. Mcmcsalot is scummiest based on game play. Yuma seems caught in a lie.
I could switch, I guess.
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Well there are only two MU left they could potentially quickhammer and win. so we know that there is no robz-ash MU team. this is actually pretty much the only new info from this I believe. Jimmmmm is already conf. not MU.
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mcmc: Yuma, Jimmmmm, Liopoil
Yuma: ash, robz, mcmc
Yuma's only potential partner is mcmc, in which case it doesn't matter which we kill.
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So I am supposedly a scum one-shot Jailkeeper because theres no way I am on a scum team with galz and we are rolecop/jailkeeper vs neighbor one shot roleblocker. So I am a one shot jail keeper and I saved it this whole time, and finally used it to prevent a lr which guarantees me safety from investigations and possible night kills. In fact by stopping the Lr I gave town another IC... I thought liopoil was scum, why would I risk a nk from the other team and letting the other cop clear the person I wanted to lynch just to get theorel killed. Please look at this, the chance that yuma is lying and reasons for it far outwiegh the reason I would jailkeep him.
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So I am supposedly a scum one-shot Jailkeeper because theres no way I am on a scum team with galz and we are rolecop/jailkeeper vs neighbor one shot roleblocker.
why is it that there is no way you are on a scum team with galz?
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I said full jailkeep full rolecop cant be the same team, so if I am galz partner I am more likely to be one shot jailkeeper which makes it even less likely then the already plethera of reason the a scum jailkeeper would not jailkeep you.
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and I still maintain that it is possible that a player can both use an action and perform a night kill. You are not cleared from being Galz's partner in my book. Not by a long shot.
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When I have time (just about to leave for work) I'll do the hard yards and give yuma a re-read.
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and I still maintain that it is possible that a player can both use an action and perform a night kill. You are not cleared from being Galz's partner in my book. Not by a long shot.
okay regardless, say I am a full jailkeeper on a team with galz and I can jailkeep and night kill at the same time. Why do I jailkeep you, make liopoil an ic and kill theorel(he couldve been doctored) and risk being nightkilled by another scum team. Or I let you LR no investigations, no chance I am nk'd and the next night I jailkeep Jim to make sure no doc and kill theorel.
You keep stating I could be jailkeeper I could be teamed with galz, those roles could work, but your just ignoring the fact that even if all of that is true jailkeeping you is a terrible play.
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Robz's tracking claim needs studied, if you are rereading. I think that claim is driving a lot of this.
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and I still maintain that it is possible that a player can both use an action and perform a night kill. You are not cleared from being Galz's partner in my book. Not by a long shot.
okay regardless, say I am a full jailkeeper on a team with galz and I can jailkeep and night kill at the same time. Why do I jailkeep you, make liopoil an ic and kill theorel(he couldve been doctored) and risk being nightkilled by another scum team. Or I let you LR no investigations, no chance I am nk'd and the next night I jailkeep Jim to make sure no doc and kill theorel.
You keep stating I could be jailkeeper I could be teamed with galz, those roles could work, but your just ignoring the fact that even if all of that is true jailkeeping you is a terrible play.
You jail Yuma to make sure you kill the cop that can catch you. If you don't, you only kill Yuma.
Still, the LR protects you from investigations anyway, so your alternate plan makes more sense to me, too.
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and I still maintain that it is possible that a player can both use an action and perform a night kill. You are not cleared from being Galz's partner in my book. Not by a long shot.
okay regardless, say I am a full jailkeeper on a team with galz and I can jailkeep and night kill at the same time. Why do I jailkeep you, make liopoil an ic and kill theorel(he couldve been doctored) and risk being nightkilled by another scum team. Or I let you LR no investigations, no chance I am nk'd and the next night I jailkeep Jim to make sure no doc and kill theorel.
You keep stating I could be jailkeeper I could be teamed with galz, those roles could work, but your just ignoring the fact that even if all of that is true jailkeeping you is a terrible play.
I understand what you are saying... I really do. And I have said before that if our shoes were switched I would very likely lynched you because it is the more likely scenario! But I am LR, I did activate it and it didn't work, therefore I am left to try and figure it out! I don't know what happened! But right now it appears to be working relatively well. A cop was NK, I (town) am the most likely lynched today. So I don't know. I really don't. But I know I am a bad lynch from my perspective.
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A couple things:
Mcmcsalot COULD be scum. I don't actually giving the tracking thing much credit anymore. It was fine info to direct our earlier efforts, but at this point, I'm not putting stock in it. Galz could have just done the kill. I agree that it's perfectly plausible that a scum can shoot and use his power. There really isn't anything to absolve mcmc at this point. I also see him kind of parroting other people's views. It would not surprise me AT ALL if he was scum.
HOWEVER.
There's just no way Yuma was actually roleblocked. I don't think it's very likely there's another roleblocker, I don't think it creates parity between the teams, and I don't think it was strategically wise to roleblock yuma even if mcmcsalot is a roleblocker. Because then he would face the very real possibility of Jimm doctoring theorel and theorel investigating him.
So they may both be scum. But yuma has to be the more likely of the two. Do you guys seriously think otherwise? I've been wrong about a lot of stuff (sorry liopoil), and I'm willing to switch my vote. I just don't believe yuma was roleblocked.
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I think the better argument for Yuma is that he was jailed.
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A couple things:
Mcmcsalot COULD be scum. I don't actually giving the tracking thing much credit anymore. It was fine info to direct our earlier efforts, but at this point, I'm not putting stock in it. Galz could have just done the kill. I agree that it's perfectly plausible that a scum can shoot and use his power. There really isn't anything to absolve mcmc at this point. I also see him kind of parroting other people's views. It would not surprise me AT ALL if he was scum.
HOWEVER.
There's just no way Yuma was actually roleblocked. I don't think it's very likely there's another roleblocker, I don't think it creates parity between the teams, and I don't think it was strategically wise to roleblock yuma even if mcmcsalot is a roleblocker. Because then he would face the very real possibility of Jimm doctoring theorel and theorel investigating him.
So they may both be scum. But yuma has to be the more likely of the two. Do you guys seriously think otherwise? I've been wrong about a lot of stuff (sorry liopoil), and I'm willing to switch my vote. I just don't believe yuma was roleblocked.
If anyone is scum playing a great game, it is you. But I think I'm just fine thinking you are town and okay losing to you if you played us all this well.
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Man, it's always "Is Robz being awesome scum or lousy town?" So lousy at being town.
If yuma is scum, even if we do lynch him, I say he played a great game. Several times, I've crossed him off my list for just being so thorough and analytical--typically town traits. But other evidence is more compelling now.
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Vote Count 5.1
Admiral Ross calls up to see how things are going on the station. Unfortunately, the few surviving station denizens are either drunk at Morn's or frantically scrambling to keep the station from falling apart.
You'd better secure the station quickly or there won't be much left to secure!
yuma (3): ashersky, mcmcsalot, Robz
mcmc (3): Jimmmmm, liopoil, yuma
Not Voting: no one!
With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
I think I forgot to give you guys a deadline.
Let's make it February 26th at noon.
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Man, it's always "Is Robz being awesome scum or lousy town?" So lousy at being town.
If yuma is scum, even if we do lynch him, I say he played a great game. Several times, I've crossed him off my list for just being so thorough and analytical--typically town traits. But other evidence is more compelling now.
I do agree that Yuma has seemed town all game. It's really just the seeming lie that's damning him.
Lio is our IC now, and doesn't prefer him.
Here's the thing, losing town!mcmc isn't so bad...
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I realized a solution that could potentially explain everything... it is a hedge case scenario, which is exactly what Robz doesn't want... but that is all I really have to offer at this point. I can't help it, I am going crazy in my head trying to explain what happened last night, but it is really hard in a closed setup. And I don't know if it would work with LR rules or not, but I'll put it out there anyways.
Anyways, consider a Bus-Driver who targets me and theorel. I activate my LR, but theorel gets swapped in instead so he is targeted instead. So he is killed and investigated (by ash) instead of me... so scum is free from investigation, get a night kill and I am sitting pretty for the lynch the next day (note that this scenario would result in lio not actually being an IC....)
Of course all of this is dependent on there being a scum bus-driver, which I think is just as likely as there being a scum JK (maybe even more likely as scum wouldn't want to claim BD because it is typically a pretty scummy role). And again, an edge case... but like I said, that is all I got at this point.
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But ash said he investigated liopoil.
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But ash said he investigated liopoil.
My result is definitely on lio. That's clear in my PM. I am fairly certain a bus driver/redirector/LR would have given me something different in my PM.
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But ash said he investigated liopoil.
My result is definitely on lio. That's clear in my PM. I am fairly certain a bus driver/redirector/LR would have given me something different in my PM.
Either Yuma was blocked or jailed or lied.
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But ash said he investigated liopoil.
My result is definitely on lio. That's clear in my PM. I am fairly certain a bus driver/redirector/LR would have given me something different in my PM.
Either Yuma was blocked or jailed or lied.
Ok. I guess I don't understand bus driving very well then. Sorry for the distraction.
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Okay, re-read yuma. Yep, the whole game. I'm not likely to remember everything now, but my conclusion is I think he's likely Town, but if he is scum, he's probably Galz' partner. Just too much going for Glooble, I think. Sure, yeah, bussing whatever. I don't think he's Maquis. And I don't see any indication that he's scum. Of course, that might be easy to do if he's Galz' only partner, as for most of the game he's had no one that he particularly doesn't want to die.
He's also had almost the exact response to my claim that I'd expect from a Townie who's been suspecting me, in that he's really uncomfortable with it. I knew Townies would be uncomfortable with it, as yeah, it makes me close to unlynchable. Robz and ash, on the other hand, seemed suspicious of me before my claim, and (correct me if I'm wrong) haven't said much about me since, so that makes me more suspicious of them.
Anyway. We know that one of these two things has happened:
1) Scum yuma, who is likely the last remaining scum on his team, decided that the best way for him to win the game would be to claim LR and (admittedly not immediately) offer to use it, knowing full well that he wouldn't (certainly if it looked like the other scumteam was still alive) and would look mighty suspicious the next day.
2) We have another Roleblocker or a Jailkeeper somewhere who thought the best way for his team to win the game was to stop yuma from LRing, effectively saving a non-his-team from death and allowing a his-team-Cop to get more information about his team.
These both seem unlikely, but one of them happened. And I'm still leaning towards the second.
I'm also really wishing we hadn't lynched Dsell yesterday. Not just because he was Town, but because he was also confirmed not-something, which are getting more and more valuable as we get closer to the end and still likely have a something alive.
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Okay, re-read yuma. Yep, the whole game. I'm not likely to remember everything now, but my conclusion is I think he's likely Town, but if he is scum, he's probably Galz' partner. Just too much going for Glooble, I think. Sure, yeah, bussing whatever. I don't think he's Maquis. And I don't see any indication that he's scum. Of course, that might be easy to do if he's Galz' only partner, as for most of the game he's had no one that he particularly doesn't want to die.
He's also had almost the exact response to my claim that I'd expect from a Townie who's been suspecting me, in that he's really uncomfortable with it. I knew Townies would be uncomfortable with it, as yeah, it makes me close to unlynchable. Robz and ash, on the other hand, seemed suspicious of me before my claim, and (correct me if I'm wrong) haven't said much about me since, so that makes me more suspicious of them.
Anyway. We know that one of these two things has happened:
1) Scum yuma, who is likely the last remaining scum on his team, decided that the best way for him to win the game would be to claim LR and (admittedly not immediately) offer to use it, knowing full well that he wouldn't (certainly if it looked like the other scumteam was still alive) and would look mighty suspicious the next day.
2) We have another Roleblocker or a Jailkeeper somewhere who thought the best way for his team to win the game was to stop yuma from LRing, effectively saving a non-his-team from death and allowing a his-team-Cop to get more information about his team.
These both seem unlikely, but one of them happened. And I'm still leaning towards the second.
I'm also really wishing we hadn't lynched Dsell yesterday. Not just because he was Town, but because he was also confirmed not-something, which are getting more and more valuable as we get closer to the end and still likely have a something alive.
I hadn't put together that weird "Jimmmmm might be hated" D1 thing with your BP claim. Together it makes more sense.
I think either Yuma played a gambit with the LR claim, or was jailed/blocked. No other explanation for everything working last night. It doesn't help that we don't have anyone else with night actions who can offer up info.
I think I am guaranteed to die tonight, so there are probably no more investigations. Scum team analysis is probably most useful moving forward.
The odd thing is, scum isn't hammering here. Even with no guarantees on how many remain alive, you'd think if there is an opportunity to lynch someone not on your team, you take it at this point, and hope your NKs take out the rest. This is very well MYLO for the town, but not yet for scum.
Possibly, both Yuma and mcmc are scum, and can't hammer each other.
Honestly, I think it's two town + one scum on each wagon. Mcmc on Yuma and either Jimmmmm or Yuma on mcmc.
Mcmc is the safer lynch when I look at it from that angle. Lio is on mcmc, and he's confirmed town. Robz, what do you think?
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Well I guess the fact that scum hasn't hammered could be put down to:
1) yuma and mcmc are the last two scum so can't.
2) Any scum that can would have to do some scummy-looking backtracking on their "reads" in order to hammer someone they've expressed a Town read on.
3) Scum don't really care who's lynched, and don't want to draw attention to themselves by being the one to hammer.
Really if you or I are scum we have little reason to hammer since we don't seem likely to be lynched today, so the only potential scum who would possibly hammer to save himself would be Robz. Which actually to me makes it more likely that yuma and mcmc are the last two scum.
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Honestly, I think it's two town + one scum on each wagon. Mcmc on Yuma and either Jimmmmm or Yuma on mcmc.
Mcmc is the safer lynch when I look at it from that angle. Lio is on mcmc, and he's confirmed town. Robz, what do you think?
Does that mean you're planning on hammering?
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Honestly, I think it's two town + one scum on each wagon. Mcmc on Yuma and either Jimmmmm or Yuma on mcmc.
Mcmc is the safer lynch when I look at it from that angle. Lio is on mcmc, and he's confirmed town. Robz, what do you think?
Does that mean you're planning on hammering?
I means I could be convinced to switch.
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Well, the only way that lynching mcmc screws us is if there 2 scum and mcmc isn't one of them.
If scum is just yuma, we can afford to kill one and then the other.
If scum is both mcmc and yuma, it doesn't matter who we kill first.
I still say another roleblocker is unlikely and yuma is scum, but I see the case for mcmc, and it truly doesn't matter unless scum is jimm/yuma or ash/yuma. That's... not likely, I don't think.
I can hammer mcmc, actually. I don't see how doing them in this order is actually a problem.
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Am I wrong? Let's say we mislynch, and someone gets night killed. I don't know, let's say it's liopoil, but that doesn't matter. Then it's me, yuma, ashersky, and jimm. And we're still okay.
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Assuming we do lynch mcmc, before we do so we really need thoughts from lio as to who he thinks is scummier out of yuma and Robz (and me I guess).
Also need to talk about yuma LRing tonight in the case that he is telling the truth. If mcmc isn't a Roleblocker/Jailkeeper, we'll probably be in the same situation tomorrow though.
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The issue with lynching me is if you believe I am town I am a bomb, If you believe the fringe case where I made a terrible use of my jailkeep I am scum. Either way you know both of my potential roles. If yuma is town he is LR and it didn't go off and now he does nothing. If yuma is scum making a gambit on the LR claim, we have no clue what potential role he has.
If you want to lynch us both why am I the safer lynch for today. If we are both town I am more helpful, not by much, If we are both scum he is potentially more dangerous. With ash being the last cop and most likely going to be killed jailkeep will then be a useless power, so again even if I am scum jailkeeper, which I am not, why would you lynch me over scum yuma.
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Uh, if yuma truly was roleblocked, he has no LR shot left, right? No way he was an unlimited LR.
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Yuma was 1-shot, he said.
No one is shooting mcmc anyway, so his utility argument holds no water.
I'm fine with either dying at ths point.
If I die tonight, lynch the other one or jimmmmm tomorrow.
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Actually, here is an idea.
If we really think a town lynch today is okay, you could lynch me. I'm not IC like Lio and you remove the obvious NK from the equation.
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Okay, I think we're just waiting for liopoil, now.
Liopoil: If the scum is jim/yuma, this is going to be entirely your fault, so, you know, no pressure.
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Actually, here is an idea.
If we really think a town lynch today is okay, you could lynch me. I'm not IC like Lio and you remove the obvious NK from the equation.
What? Why would we do this? A town lynch is only okay if there's only 1 scum left. Which is definitely possible, there was only 1 death last night... but I don't think anybody really thinks you are scum..
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Okay, I think we're just waiting for liopoil, now.
Liopoil: If the scum is jim/yuma, this is going to be entirely your fault, so, you know, no pressure.
True.
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If mcmc and yuma are both scum, killing you ashersky could actually put us in, or close, to a no-win scenario. (The same is true if we kill mcmc and jim/yuma are scum.)
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Actually, here is an idea.
If we really think a town lynch today is okay, you could lynch me. I'm not IC like Lio and you remove the obvious NK from the equation.
What? Why would we do this? A town lynch is only okay if there's only 1 scum left. Which is definitely possible, there was only 1 death last night... but I don't think anybody really thinks you are scum..
I'm a few beers in, so my planning may not be the best.
Lynch Yuma, then mcmc, then Jimmmmm. That's my order of preference.
Just thought, well, if a town lynch is our safest play, I was willing to make the sacrifice.
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I agree with that order. I'm just not SO worried about doing mcmc first. But we have to do it whatever way liopoil wants, I guess.
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If mcmc and yuma are both scum, killing you ashersky could actually put us in, or close, to a no-win scenario. (The same is true if we kill mcmc and jim/yuma are scum.)
This makes sense.
I think an if, then list would be good.
If scum is Yuma/mcmc, then...
If scum is mcmc/Jimmmmm, then...
If scum is Yuma/Jimmmmm, then...
I don't know the thens.
If Robz is scum, then we lose. That one I know.
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I think mcmc is more likely to be scum then Yuma.
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Liopoil please reread Yuma I believe from your posts you are basing this off of rememberence from the game. I also think you are letting my scum read on you affect your read on me, when in fact the fact Thani thought you were scum, even came into today thinking you didn't take your night kill to make it look like glooble and munch was the last of that team. I knew ash would've copped you, so why would I continue to push thinking you were scum if I knew you were town and knew you would soon be made ic.
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Lio, what about Jim or me? I think Jim wants that answered before we go to night.
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Well, lio just said he's V/LA until Wesnesday. Can't imagine it's worth it to wait.
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I think mcmc is more likely to be scum then Yuma.
Let's find out.
Vote: mcmcsalot
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Come on come on come on, flip time.
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Nothing to say, bro? I take this to mean you were indeed scum.
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Vote Count 5.2
"I know it's, uh, not my place to say, but, it seems weird that General Martok's ship has been here the entire time this has been happening," Rom says to Garak as he's getting a suit fitted. "Do - do you think he might be the spy?"
"Hmmm," says Garak. "But he's such good friends with our erstwhile Captain, I'm afraid we'll never convince Starfleet to consider the possibility. I wouldn't worry about it." He smiles his wry smile.
The next day, everyone is shocked when General Martok's ship, the Rotarran, explodes with him and his crew on board.
But then Worf receives a strange communique from the Klingon homeworld. It's Martok!
"Woooorf, you old dog, how are you?"
"But General. You were killed. Just this morning."
"What? I haven't been to Deep Space Nine in months!"
A subspace quantum scan of the debris confirms it: The Martok who's been on the station this whole time was from the Mirror Universe!
mcmcsalot has been lynched. He was General Martok, the Mirror Universe-aligned Bomb.
yuma (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (4): Jimmmmm, liopoil, yuma, Robz
Not Voting: no one!
With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
We can have another 24 hour night, or we can skip the weekend and start up again on Monday. Living players, please PM me your preference.
THREAD LOCKED
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Game will start Monday morning. Night actions due by midnight Sunday.
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The promenade has been returned to its pre-occupation days. With Worf's untimely death (devolved into a lizard after eating some bad gagh), no Starfleet personnel remain, and the highest ranking Bajoran officer is actually Rom, who has neither the propensity nor the desire to keep order. There is widespread looting and destruction.
ashersky has been killed. He was Worf, the Station-aligned Maquis Cop
With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is march 4th at 8 am
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And we're back. lio, as our resident IC, who do you see as the least and most Towny at this point in time?
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Updated Living:
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed TOWN)
11. Jimmmmm - Beloved Princess/Vadek Antos (Confirmed NOT MU)
Possible MU: Robz, yuma
Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, Jimmmmm
It seems by far most likely that there is exactly one scum left, the third Maquis, so confirmed non-MU means nothing for me. Obviously from my point of view it's either Robz or yuma. If we're to follow ash's major Town read on Robz, that means it must be yuma, which is consistent with yuma "lying" about the LR. The other possibility, of course, is that Robz is a Jailkeeper or something, and prevented yuma's LR.
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If we lynch yuma, I want it to be on more than just the LR thing. lio and the other Townie, I think we should all put in a re-read of all our possible lynch candidates so we can make the best possible choice.
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oh hey, I'm not dead! :D
I feel the scum is either yuma or robz. Here's why I don't think it's Jimmmm:
if Jimmmmm is scum yuma is town. If yuma is town then he was roleblocked/jailed. If he was roleblocked/jailed it was by scum. If scum roleblocked/jailed yuma and Jimmmmm is scum then Jimmmmm jailed/roleblocked Yuma. This means that if jimmmmm is scum he is a roleblocker/jailkeeper. this means that he decided to breadcrumb PR/beloved princess early D1, and needlessly added that Joth gave him another power when he claimed. I don't think that Jimmmmm would do this. I also think it very unlikely that we are going to lynch Jimmmmm this game. For that to happen we would have to come up with an actual case on him that is better than the huge cases on Yuma and Robz888, plus the reasons to believe he is town above, and yuma, robz and I all agree on it. Since I don't think we are going to lynch Jimmmmm, this means that he essentially wins if he is scum. Therefore I think we should treat him as an IC. Yuma or Robz, did I miss something? do we have a good reason to consider lynching Jimmmmm?
Do we want to consider No lynching? assuming we aren't lynching Jimmmmm, all it would do is kill off an IC, making it so that one of Jimmmmm or I pretty much decide the game. right now Jimmmmm and I need to agree on who to lynch, which I think is probably best, assuming Jimmmmm is town.
If we aren't going to No lynch then I think Jimmmmm should Fullclaim (how many shots, who he's saved, etc.). this is because if we don't No lynch then the game is going to be decided today, and any shots he might have left are useless. If we were going to No lynch he should probably Full claim anyway...
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I thought of no lynching, and normally with 1 scum 3 Town that'd be the way to go. But we have an IC so I don't think there's much point. Also, either way we need everyone but the lynchee to agree to get a lynch through.
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I need to do a giant reread. I read your post lio and overall I agree with it about jimmmm but I do want to make sure about it and make sure all the bases are covered before giving him that status.
I am pretty much vla today but will be getting to everything soon.
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yeah, I think the whole idea of No lynching is to rule out a suspect. So, Jimmmmmm, fullclaim!
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just thought of something. If Jimmmmm and I do our big reread and stuff of robz and yuma and dissagree about who to lynch we may be forced to No lynch, in which case scum has an interesting choice...
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Very little time right now to post. Will have more later. But a few quick thoughts:
Don't give Jim obv town status please. Lets take our time and think through the possibility that he could be scum. I don't think it's likely though just because I don't think there's another scum role blocker, which would have to be the case for jim to be scum instead of Yuma.
We are I assume looking for another maquis. That's why he shot the maquis cop instead of the IC.
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I was a 1-shot Doctor which I used Night 1 on theorel because I thought I was going to be Nightkilled. I hoped the possibility of having a Doctor around might mess up scum kills and maybe make them not want to kill the Cops because they might be protected.
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Why theorel instead of someone else? obviously that was a good choice, but at that point he hadn't claimed or anything.
I don't think it is neccessarily maquis. yes I think it is more likely that there is maquis than MU, but is by no means certain. It's more likely that there's an MU than Jimmmmm being scum I think. scum might have killed ash because he thought Jimmmmm might save me. ashersky would likely target jimmmmm, and the scum in yuma/robz wouldn't want him to be an IC.
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Why theorel instead of someone else? obviously that was a good choice, but at that point he hadn't claimed or anything.
My biggest Townread at that stage was obviously Dsell. I actually thought he might have known my role (on the Beloved Princess wiki page it says that often the game comes with something that makes it such that Town deserves to be punished if they lynch the BP, and one example of this was a "Guard" who knew who the BP was). But I thought that Dsell had so much Towncred that he was unlikely to be killed by either team, for the possibility of Doctors or clashing with the other team. I figured a good place to go would be the second Towniest person, and for me that was theorel.
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I re-read yuma, paying particular attention to interactions with Glooble and Munch. The take-home message is that yuma tunnelled Glooble big-time. In isolation, that would make me lean towards yuma not being on Glooble's team. If he is, then major bussing to the extent of actively trying to get Glooble lynched was yuma's plan, seemingly from close to the start.
The following players have received votes:
...
themunch/sparky - themunch's reaction to Eevee's vote is interesting because it is meta based. Which I suppose is appropriate because eevee's case is rather meta based. Along with however was a defense of Eevee's vote on him in response to ash. I feel like this could be buddying, but is so obvious that I don't want to think that it is. What was it you say about obvious play Robz?
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
Trying to do better than LaLL is sort of what led to D1 in casino game. I don't mean there was an obvious lurker lynch there, but from my perspective it seemed like town was dying to find airtight cases and be stubborn about who they would refuse to vote for or refuse to give up a case on. By the end of the day everyone had a wagon on them, reads were muddled, town mislynched shraeye at town!Robz's insistence after like 60 pages and behavior was hard to analyze on D2.
I guess my point is that LaLL is at least as good as any other reasoning D1. At least once there's been some degree of healthy discussion as there has been here.
Does anyone else have the feeling that town does better when they kinda just get D1 over with kinda quickly even if they mislynch?
this is how I feel. I don't know if rushed is the right way to put it... and town doesn't always tend to do well when it has an obvious day1 lynch... MXII for example in pps...
But really to say that voting Glooble isn't enough is kinda silly, because it is something real and provable. Whereas the other cases, while some have more merit than others, are based off interpretation, metas and (day 1 more often than not) misunderstandings. These cases have a role, but they shouldn't be counted higher than other day1 methods.
blah... well I am kinda disappointed in the reaction to glooble's reaction. It was just too easy.... I personally want to hear more from Glooble
This is interesting since if yuma is Maquis then it involves the whole Maquis team:
What struck me as the most odd from the Glooble wagon is this post from Yuma:
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
I dont know what to make of it yet but I dont like it.
let me know when you figure it out and I'll respond to it if necessary. For now I will acknowledge that you think it is... something... and leave it at that.
Question. Did you actually mean "case"? And if yes, what case are you referring to?
Yes I meant case. As in the case on Glooble is that he is lurking and lurking in a somewhat scummy manner. This is contrasted to early cases that I had criticized that I thought were trying to be bigger and more important than they really should have been.
And I still say that glooble is a valid lynch option that was abandoned far too quickly. In fact it wasn't even given a chance to produce the real results that I was looking for... to see if Glooble would start posting more under pressure--there now I gave away my scum hunting trick--like Lekkit and Grujah did when we lynched them. But all he had to do was post twice and the pressure was off, just like that. What was that all about?
just found this quote from Glooble:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you (this is refering to Cuzz) flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip."
after Cuzz was lynched, but before thread lock and flip...
This is interesting. (because I am more interested in finding Galz's partner, I am paying more attention to the galz part of this, but the fact that Glooble included shraeye in this is interesting)
1. Assuming here that Glooble is scum and on the scum team with Galz.
2. Neither Glooble nor Galz would know what the alignment of Cuzz was--he very well could have been opposing scum.
3. Glooble expresses a town read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum, but a potential scum read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum.
4. This is a win/win for Glooble!partner with Galz. Because if Cuzz is scum, he can now safely have a town read on his partner that won't be especially scrutinized. But if Cuzz is town, he can start a bussread on his partner, again w/o much scrutiny...
So I guess the question is this: would scum!Glooble express a strong town read on his partner? Now I guess he is actually expressing more of a scum read than a town read. Because from scum!Glooble's perspective, Cuzz was more likely to flip town--as scum!Glooble would know that Cuzz wasn't on a scum team with him, so even though he didn't know Cuzz's alignment, he suspected that Cuzz was perhaps more likely to flip town, so his read while potentially strong town was actually more setup to be a scum read...
I think Galzparner!Glooble could write something like this.
Yuma, I don't understand your argument for why I'm Galz's scumbuddy at all.
is there anything in particular you don't understand? Let me see if I can clarify a bit.
I am not saying that you are Galz's scumbuddy. I don't know if you are or not. I analyzed Galz's interactions with everyone, and you were one person that stood out to me that could potentially be his scumbuddy. I then looked back a bit and saw your post about Galz. From there I tried to see if your post would make sense from a player that could be scumbuddy with Galz. I think it does. It doesn't mean that you are, but it means that that post doesn't exclude you from being... Does that make sense? Does that make sense to everyone?
I am not saying that Glooble is Galz's scum partner. I need to go back and look at things more and try and look at other players as well before I make that decision. But that post did jump out to me and could certainly be from scum!Glooble about his partner Galz.
I am much more comfortable in thinking that there is scum within the three of mcmc/Jimmm/shraeye then I am in thinking that there is scum in raerae/shraeye/munch. Galz's trio actually has something of substance to base it off. It isn't surefire, but it is a lot better than raerae/shraeye/munch... But again has the same danger... For example: say if we lynch mcmc and say town!Jimmmm dies in the night that doesn't guarantee shraeye is scum... and could easily result in 2 mislynches before we finally realize that there wasn't scum in the mix... But I do think it is a better bet than heading down the other route.
TheMunch: talks to raerae about the lack of theory conversation.... puts a vote down on eevee (the one that shraeye criticized)... has an "off read" on ash... says "raerae is raerae" theorizes she could be sk... and doesn't think shraeye was worth mentioning at this point... admits feeling not as confident after the switch mafia... finds shraeye's case on Cuzz as "meh" but feels that Cuzz's response was worth a vote... agrees with 100% on shraeye's read on glooble, expresses a dislike for the long day1... doesn't like an eevee POE suspicion on raerae... really pushes for the Cuzz lynch, like hard... has a strong town read on shraeye in response to Cuzz....
...
So I don't think there is any greater chance of finding scum between shraeye and themunch than any other two players. I think this has been a road of faulty logic that we as town have gone down. Now the question is such: who is more likely to create this type of myth? Town or scum?
Robz is probably my number one townread, so his endorsement of the shraeye lynch definitely holds weight with me. But something still seems off to me. Sorry I can't offer anything more constructive right now.
why is he a town read?
I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding...
Now Glooble:
finds Jimmm scummy and as a result the eevee case not very compelling.... and then votes Jimmm for both the eevee case and the PR claim thing.... votes ashersky, because ash asked why he didn't vote him when glooble called out a defense by ash...
I will note that glooble has a lot of posts, or part of posts that reference his availability or lack thereof... I know scum can become paranoid about how town views their availability in regard to their posting... or it could just be that glooble knows that he is a lurker and is a nice guy and wants to acknowledge that and let us know why...
under a bit of pressure for lurking reveals that he was going to /out of the game... Now as I said before this irked me... well not glooble's response, because I am not one to purposefully question someones IRL obligations and responsibilities... but I was irked that this resonated so quickly with nearly everyone on his wagon. I mentioned before the glooble wagon started that I was interested in reactions and in analyzing reactions... I was particularily interested in glooble's reaction to a wagon on him, but I was more interested in it in the long term... With both the day1 scum/lurker lynches we had in the past the thing that set them up wasn't really their lurking, it was that they both subsequently started to increase the amount of posts after the pressure. I was hoping to see if Glooble would do that, but the immediate let off on pressure didn't really give me a chance. I guess I can analyze it a bit... in that since then glooble has not increased the amounts of posting (sorry for the long tangent there, but I was really hoping that line of thought would pay off and you would all think me a genius and crown me mafia champion...)
similar to mcmc, glooble unvotes ash because it was an ancient read... Glooble starts the investigation into cuzz for his "redirect to glooble" actually shraeye brings it up, but Glooble agrees with and a lot of the rest of the case, and eventually votes for Cuzz... defends some of the points from shraeye's case against theorel's analysis...
Again the post I mentioned before where glooble has a strong town read on Galz and shraeye if Cuzz flips scum, but reverse that if Cuzz flips town... (this still is really scummy to me, especially in light of Galz's alignment
and then is absent for the rest of day 1.
Day 2;
still has a townread on shraeye... But Cuzz flipped town!!! in contradiction to that posted above and wanted to analyze the fast wagon on shraeye... gives some merit to munch's case on ash... is undecided/leaning no in answer to scum between munch/shraeye
well my beef with glooble is as such:
1. lurking, but didn't change lurking habits after receiving pressure, but pressure wasnt' there very long
2. has a lot of availability posts, but like I said... could be paranoid scum or just a nice guy... has glooble done this in the past, tell us his availability a lot, I haven't played much with him.
3. was on the Cuzz wagon, and heavily agreed with shraeye and defended some of shraeye's points (this isn't necessarily scummy, but I disagreed with the case and the defenses)
4. his post about Galz/shraeye in light of the cuzz flip and the fact that he still has a town read on shraeye despite that.
And I can't remember again what Galz had to say about him... Galz said he would be willing to lynch him, but didn't really have a scum read.
So at this point I have a scummier read on mcmc than on Glooble. All of my thoughts on Glooble seem to have a this was scummy, but.... attached onto it.
I can't believe how quickly this deadline is coming up. I see some merit on each of the wagons though I really wish others were interested in lynching Munch. I will review and get in some more content soon...ish.
is there any particular reason we should be focusing on TheMunch that you would like to point out for us. If you really wish for something to happen, perhaps you could do something to make it happen? I don't know. Themunch is somewhere in the middle of the pack for me, but if you put something together I would certainly be willing to look at it. But again, I am leaning more toward mcmc or glooble than anyone else. Although I also think lio could take an extra look as well.
So I am going to go back to my second scumread and vote: glooble. It appears that everyone is reverting back to shraeye, who I could see lynching, but not as much as I would prefer glooble. Also, and this is secondary to my scumread on glooble, but I am worried that with such a short deadline people are going to start jumping on shraeye because "he is the only viable lynch possible" and we will end up in a similar situation as we did yesterday with the Cuzz wagon...
sorry:
vote: glooble
But I am happy that someone else is finally acknowledging Glooble. I am much more in support of his lynch over ashersky or lio (who I reread yesterday and did not find to be exceptionally scummy at all!)
vote: Glooble
Well, I will have to think more about that.... But beyond that I think there is likely scum 1. within the Cuzz wagon (Glooble, ash, Robz, TheMunch, lio); and 2. people on only 1 wagon (mcmc, theorel, Glooble), although here theorel could be considered to be on the 1shraeye wagon and being willing to hammer eevee. and look at that Glooble is on both.
However, I also felt like there was some buddying from liopoil towards Glooble (didn't notice it the other way). Here are a couple posts that stood out...here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg169285#msg169285) and here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=6314.msg174394#msg174394). But on reread I may have read too much into this, as there were only a couple other interactions which seemed less buddying on reread. But, it did stand out as odd to me, especially because for a lot of that, most the rest of his attention seemed focused on Jimmmmm's claim-thing. I mean he has the one post of an everyone-read, but other than that he's casting suspicions on Jimmmmm and buddying Glooble.
Based on that alone, I'd rather lynch liopoil. But I need to look back at a couple other things also: who voted for liopoil yesterday? Who has expressed interest in lynching Glooble today? Those are important things to be considered in all of this. For now, I'm going to Vote: liopoil and see where things go.
I hadn't noticed those posts in regard to Glooble, or perhaps I noticed them because I remembered them but didn't see their significance... and to be honest I still kinda don't. I think that part of this is that I have a pretty strong scum read on Glooble, whereas you have a town read on Glooble. And for that reason I find it hard--although I do need to remember that there is more than one scum team--to see a player buddying up to scum. Normally it is a scum buddying up to town.
I would also say that he has had some "buddying" like posts with other players as well... He really liked shraeye's analysis. He just gave me townie points a few posts up, he and themunch are apparently like this.... (imagine two of my fingers crossed together)... and I am sure there are more out there... so I am not sure what your point is with Glooble specifically. Lio seems like he likes to compliment other players for their work and their reads. Maybe this is scummy, but it is kinda hard to tell w/o meta analysis.
My previous read on lio (from late day2) changed a gut scum read into a non-scum read. I still lean toward town on him.
I am kinda waiting for people to finish up rereads on Glooble... There are a couple that are supposedly in progress or waiting to be done.
I'll respond to your posts, but I am not super inclined to have a huge back and forth like Day1 saw as those tend to monopolize the discussion and really to me aren't very readable. But I do want to make sure you understand me and that I understand you.
1. Yes, lurking alone isn't enough. I agree, which if that were all, it wouldn't be enough.
2. This was resolved after you later explained your rationale for why you do it. I don't think it is scummy, I think it is polite and shouldn't be considered as part of my current case on you. Previously it was something that I found interesting during my reread of you and wanted to hear more from you about.
3. the Cuzz wagon isn't just the way that you participated, it was the way that you participated. You added little original thought to it. I know this isn't a super great argument because shraeye did put together a pretty large case that left little room for original thought. But it was as if you basically followed shraeye using him as a shield if things went wrong. This is in contrast to others such as ashersky and Robz who did add their own insights into the Cuzz case. I think this is exemplified by your post that I quoted that said you would find--and from this I read that you would expect others to find shraeye scummy if Cuzz turned up scum.
4. Again point 4 was from the point of view when shraeye was still alive and shraeye's alignment wasn't known. But again the issue is what I address in point 3 and will address below.
My thought process behind the one out of three being scum from the group that was only on one wagon is that I think scum often likes to not be on a lot of wagons. They kind of like to vote sparingly, try to stay out of the limelight, avoid wagons... At least in my experience at least one member of scum tends to do that... so you three kinda fit the bill. But you are correct that the eevee wagon started more or less while you were gone... I hadn't realized that. You did express a townread on him shortly before it started... so this analysis is a little more muddled (and I guess you weren't really online during the shraeye quick wagon day1 either...)
As for the last point... I know my quote is convuluted and isn't really clear, I was just thinking out loud. I will try to be more clear here.... What I am thinking behind that post really had more to do with Galz than with shraeye.
Here is the quote again for context:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip.
This was posted after the lynch, but before the flip and I find it an interesting post because if you posted it as scum partners with Galz it is a win/win scenario for you. If Cuzz flips scum, you are totally justified in having a town read on your partner Galz. However, if Cuzz flips town, you are then totally justified in having a scum read on your partner Galz, who is likely to come under some pressure Day2, for some easy, suspicion free, bussing. Again, this isn't so much evidence against you as it is me wanting to make sure that the person I am voting for has a viable chance of being partners with Galz--as I think analyzing him and his interactions with other players presents our best chance at finding scum at this point. I found this post of yours to be a viable post from scum!glooble who is partners with Galz.
And there was a typo in the post below, where it says you had a non-genuine defense of eevee, it should be a non-genuine defense of shraeye. This corresponds to point 3 above.
I understand that while you said you would be more suspicious of shraeye if Cuzz flipped town, that doesn't necessarily mean that you would read him as surefire scum afterward, but you dont' even seem to change your read on him. It was kind of like you picked in the early game which players you would have town reads on and stuck with them the rest of the game.
for example this line in particular stood out to me: The fact is, I'm far from ready to lynch shraeye with the info we have now. It's like, it seems good on paper, but he just reads very town to me. But maybe part of that is that if I admit that his arguments for lynching Cuzz were manipulative, then I'm owning up to how easy I was to manipulate.
is talking more about yourself than shraeye.
I am also going to throw out one more thing I just noticed... the promises to do things, but not doing them. you were going to look at the shraeye, quick wagon, you were going to look at me, you were going to put together a "willing to lynch" list... and so on. I think that tends to be a scum trait. Because putting together that kind of work and reads and making them look real can be really difficult as scum.
That ended up being longer than I wanted, sorry. What do other people think. Does my case hold water? Am I just tunneling. I don't feel like I am.
I am confident one of the two of Mcmc/Ash is scum though.
If he flips town... I was just thinking about that as I was writing my last post... The point of the case on Robz is that scumRobz is definitely capablle of throwing down strong town reads on his partners. If hes town I dont think that effects my read on either Ash or Mcmc. This is not the first time I've run into a situation where I am forced to choose between clever-scum-robz and bad-play-town-robz.
I'm sorry but I just don't understand this post in the context of your vote on Robz... I mean I could see you voting Robz if we were getting close to lynch deadline and he was a viable wagon and we needed to get a lynch through. But right now? With other options available, including one of the people you are "confident is scum", voting Robz doesn't make sense to me.... I guess what is the point of trying to get Robz lynched if you think scum is elsewhere? Am I missing something?
Big things that struck out to me was Jimmmm diminishing posts (I mean just about everyone is diminishing in posts (partially because the day is not yet over), but he has dramatically decreased as the days have gone by. Glooble is similar, but on a smaller scale because he posts less. And Dsell actually is about up to speed % wise, but lagging far far behind in total. Whereas Robz and ash aren't quite up to speed % wise, but still have a greater than average total posts in all days.
So big take away FOS: Jimmmm and Glooble (hey look I am already voting there) as I continue to think that it becomes increasingly harder for scum to writer posts, especially posts that are meaningful and not likely to create suspicion, as the game goes on.
We've got just under a week to deadline, and yuma's working to derail our only promising lynch.
Odds that Glooble actually provides any content now that the pressure is lifting? Close to nil.
Big FOS yuma for his 180 after Glooble commits to providing a response but before we are able to see if he actually comes through. Glooble's just been given permission to continue not to worry.
I don't get this... We have a week. That is as in a whole week, not only a week. It isn't like we are in crunch time here.
Second, I am not derailing anything. I am trying to lynch scum. I don't know if glooble is scum. I think he is likely scum, but I am not sure if he is more likely scum than Jimmm, that is what I am trying to find out.
Third, Glooble isn't our only promising lynch. That sort of mindset is exactly what got Cuzz lynched Day1 and has been the bane of this game so far. People get deadset on their bad reads, stick to them, dont' look at anyone else and then we lynch town! Ugh!
Fourth, Glooble already responded to me and as I said in the post I above I still expect Glooble to provide content. If he doesn't, well... like I said, I have no problem going back to him.
Glooble should still worry if he is town. He should worry about a mislynch. If he is scum... well then. I don't care... he can just not post and we will lynch him.
But I do really want to take a look at Jimmmm. Do you agree that his downward trend in posting is scummy?
it looks like only dsell and ash think my case on Jimmmm has any merit at all. I still want to hear from themunch about it... I would assume that Glooble would think it has more merit than the case on him, but I don't really trust him at this point regardless...
As for lio. I have reread him... multiple times in fact. And I just don't think that the compelling case is there for him the same way that it is for Glooble or Jimmmm. The only things that anyone has really said about lio is that he has sheeped some votes and had some weird buddy interaction with Glooble. Is there anything we should look at in particular Robz?
I will revert back to vote: glooble as it appears votes on Jimmmm won't be forthcoming. Glooble remains a strong scum read and I support his lynch, but still think Jimmmm is a strong candidate as well.
pretty sure that is L-2 for glooble FYI
So yeah. Before I back my vote off Ash/Mcmc/Robz I feel like I need someone to set me straight on the actual events of the last few pages. My lack of participation is hurting me and my reads I feel.
Do you have anything specific that you want addressed? I mean the posts back there probably speak more clearly than I could attempt in a summary, unless some of the posts themselves are confusing?
If you have any specific questions I would be happy to answer them, but if you just want a generalization of what happened, I would just suggest rereading the posts again... because that is exactly what I would be doing in trying to explain to the events of the last few days...
So yuma's insistence on lynching Glooble seem to make it unlikely that they are together on a team. On the other hand, maybe you can take it as yuma trying too hard to bus and distance himself from his partner. Seems a tad unlikely. But then it looks like we're going to have to choose between seemingly unlikely scenarios, so I don't know.
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I don't think it is neccessarily maquis. yes I think it is more likely that there is maquis than MU, but is by no means certain. It's more likely that there's an MU than Jimmmmm being scum I think. scum might have killed ash because he thought Jimmmmm might save me. ashersky would likely target jimmmmm, and the scum in yuma/robz wouldn't want him to be an IC.
Liopoil, you're not thinking this through. If scum thought there was any chance Jimm still had a shot, scum would have shot Jimm. Whoever he is, he couldn't afford a no-kill night.
But what he really couldn't afford was ash surviving and investigating. He has a one third chance of ash investigating him. And even if ash investigated one of the two others, it narrows down ash's guessing to 50%. Not shooting ash is just like way too dangerous for a maquis.
Now, for an MU, shooting ash is the WRONG call, because ash could be an MU! You want to leave as many possible MUs alive, and ash was never cleared of this. So you want to shoot either liopoil, the IC, or Jimm, who cannot actually be an MU (he was cleared by theorel). If you're really afraid of Jimm doctoring, just shoot Jimm. He can't doctor himself.
Shooting ash is the strictly best move for maquis. Really, it's the necessary move for maquis.
Shooting jimm or liopoil is the strictly best move for MU. Shooting ash doesn't necessarily hurt you though, I guess. But it limits the number of suspects for the town to decide between.
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Also saw this. Might be nothing though, but possible scumslip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies"
yuma seems to be saying that players are either Station or Maquis, a belief that surely only be come to by a member of the Maquis, since anyone else seeing Maquis would see MU and Changeling right next to them. So maybe yuma was under the impression that Maquis was the only scumteam? Possibly backed up by this:
3. theorel however, brings up an interesting point about eevee and one that can be extrapolated to everyone in that scum metas aren't going to be either "town" or "scum." But this is compelling specifically about eevee. I guess I am hesitant, however, to establish this idea until it is confirmed--through night kills, lynches, investigations, that we have multiple scum teams. I am not saying I won't lynch eevee until this can be proved, but I am hesitant to use this philosophy as part of a rationale for voting.
yuma here seems to be saying "Maybe we have only one scumteam, so maybe standard scumtells do apply". Which backs up the notion that maybe yuma was getting his idea of what scum was from his own scum experience rather than from the OP.
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Also saw this. Might be nothing though, but possible scumslip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies"
yuma seems to be saying that players are either Station or Maquis, a belief that surely only be come to by a member of the Maquis, since anyone else seeing Maquis would see MU and Changeling right next to them. So maybe yuma was under the impression that Maquis was the only scumteam? Possibly backed up by this:
3. theorel however, brings up an interesting point about eevee and one that can be extrapolated to everyone in that scum metas aren't going to be either "town" or "scum." But this is compelling specifically about eevee. I guess I am hesitant, however, to establish this idea until it is confirmed--through night kills, lynches, investigations, that we have multiple scum teams. I am not saying I won't lynch eevee until this can be proved, but I am hesitant to use this philosophy as part of a rationale for voting.
yuma here seems to be saying "Maybe we have only one scumteam, so maybe standard scumtells do apply". Which backs up the notion that maybe yuma was getting his idea of what scum was from his own scum experience rather than from the OP.
The second thing, no. I think he just means, whether we are dealing with 2 teams, or a team and an SK.
But the first thing, man. That actually does look fairly bad, even when you click the post for the full context.
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The second thing, no. I think he just means, whether we are dealing with 2 teams, or a team and an SK.
Yeah I thought of that. I think the issue was whether or not scum can genuinely scumhunt, which in this setup they can, especially on day 1. Even if there is a SK, the other scumteam doesn't know there's a SK.
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Also saw this. Might be nothing though, but possible scumslip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies"
yuma seems to be saying that players are either Station or Maquis, a belief that surely only be come to by a member of the Maquis, since anyone else seeing Maquis would see MU and Changeling right next to them. So maybe yuma was under the impression that Maquis was the only scumteam? Possibly backed up by this:
that is obviously not what I am saying. For this to be true it would require me to be a complete idiot and to not realize that there are multiple scum teams. Something that was fully discussed day1 and in the opening thread.
It is funny because the post you quote was in response to another supposed "scum-slip" by me. To that I will quote Cuzz to what he said to the possibility of that.
I will policy vote the next person who accuses someone of a scumslip.
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So let's start with Jimmmm:
my main case on Jimmmm was on day3... this was the summary:
1. lots of interaction with galz. especially defensively or pro-actively before suspicion is given. Trying to lead town in a direction to find scum that wouldn't implicate himself after Galz is NK... Town reads on Galz throughout day1 for really no reason.
2. the weird day1 claiming thing. Setting up a very obvious breadcrumb. I have often said before that town shouldn't need to breadcrumb and I think it isn't a very pro-town thing to do and is more of a scum trait than anything else. Scum thinks no one will believe their claim. Town can't believe it when no one believes their claim. so scum sets up the breadcrumb. Town is just incredulous when they are lynched
3. the eevee case was kinda weird, especially all the jokes in the middle. Joking isn't necessarily a scum trait, but I do wonder if Jimmm was trying not to push too hard? I don't know how good of a point this is, but I will include it for completeness' sake.
4. announcing intent to hammer Cuzz, but never does it (disclaimer: this can be explained by my "interruption" but still he never did hammer even when it became obvious that Cuzz was going to be lynched and not shraeye.
5. His post about Galz's four suspects I think has great potential. And I agree with his analysis. That Galz was likely to talk about one of his partners in that post... so that eliminates Cuzz and shraeye, leaving mcmc and Jimmm. I have already stated that mcmc isn't a great option for today... leaving Jimmm as the only one left from the foursome.
6. His increasing lurkiness as the game goes on. He has explained this as having a hard time doing rereads--yes they are hard, but I just did one in a relativly short amount of time and got a lot out of it--not having a lot of free time--this is valid, life is busy--had more to comment during the early game than now--I strongly question this, I mean there is sooooo much to talk about now, whereas day1 didn't have nearly as much--and that his former strong reads are dead--all of which were wrong, this sounds mean, but it is true... Scummy reads on Cuzz, shraeye, eevee, townie read on Galz... I dont' remember his read on raerae.
7. trying to paint robz/mcmc as certainly on the same team... I guess this isn't so much a reason for scumminess, but simply a disagreement on how to interpret the events...
Let's see how all this holds up with the possibility of him being Marquis, as it isn't possible for him to be MU.
Point 1: is gone as he can't be partners with Galz.
Point 2: The weird claiming thing makes sense if his beloved princess role holds to be true.
Point 3: Still potentially a valid point, but I think was one of the more minor points I brought up in this post
Point 4: Still think it was weird, but he did have more of a scum read on shraeye at that time and worked hard and pushed people to get it to that point.
Point 5: no longer valid--but I was right about one of the four Galz lists as being his partner in mcmc!
Point 6: his lurking was an issue and was what first caught my attention. He did bring up the point that my mean comment about his reads being wrong was true and was partially why he was... I don't know... lacking in confidence a bit?
Point 7: like I said above this was more a disagreement about how to interpret events... and one in which I still could be in the wrong.
As for newer events such this...
He did have express a townread on Glooble. at this point Glooble was at L-2 and instead joined the lio wagon. He expressed that he thought his lurkiness was potentially caused by just being genuinely busy.
Day 4:
After Glooble's lynch Jimmm is much more active and a leader of town and is ultimately the only player not voting for dsell or lio at one point but doesn't vote for either as dsell gets lynched
Day 5: he is then very early on the mcmc wagon.
I haven't reread Robz at this point, but I think I would be hesitant to vote for Jimmmm. My main concerns with him earlier revolved around him potentially being partners with Galz. But as that is no longer possible much of my suspicion has eroded. But I do still feel justified that my guess that one of the four Galz listed was a scum partner in mcmc.
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4: The Cuzz thing was weird. I had a major Townread on Cuzz for most of the day, and then I really didn't like how he was responding to his imminent lynch. My intent to hammer, IIRC, was primarily to try to get him to start cooperating, but at the same time I would have hammered if he continued doing what I saw as stalling. His Dsell/me Mason thing actually made some sense to me (I'd noticed Dsell's continued Townread on me and thought he might be a "Guard", as I mentioned above), and I was still thinking about it when he was lynched.
6: I'm just glad I was right about mcmc: I can finally say that I've made a positive contribution to the game.
7: With the Robz/mcmc thing, I just didn't consider the possibility that scum could kill and use their other night action on the same night, which if Robz was telling the truth, it now appears that Galz did. After more thought, it now seems fairly obvious to me that scum can do this, since it was possible for someone to be both SK and Cop.
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Robz:
So I think my main concern with Robz at this point is that he is the only player to have seriously deflected away from known scum in mcmc on Day2. This is something that is very hard to overlook.
Okay, I do think the Mcmc lynch is a mistake. I am a 1-shot Tracker. Last night, I tracked mcmcsalot. He took no action. I think this makes him significantly less likely to be scum, given what we know already.
FWIW, I have some (disastrous) experience as a Tracker (in M-XII, where I epic fail at it), but I still think my psychology for picking who to track was pretty much on in that game, so I stuck with it. I don't want to track the obvious people, because the obvious people aren't going to kill anyone (because they expect the tracker to be watching them). This is mafia 101, even in games without a tracker for some reason the less suspicious partner does the kill (Galz always did the kill in M-II; I was more suspicious, even though it didn't matter). So I was not going to track the people who came under heavy suspicion yesterday, which includes shraeye, Jimm, and Eevee basically. I was never going to track Galzria because he's just too obvious a person anyway, and there's always that likelihood he gets nightkilled just for being Galzria--which I bet is what happened here; I doubt a scum faction really thought they were shooting scum in Galz. So I wanted to pick someone who I thought could be scum, but who didn't know that I thought they could be scum. Like, Glooble and Dsell I really didn't think were scum, so I wasn't picking them. Also, just from what I know about my brother, he's like a really gung-ho guy (he posted his phone number in blitz whatever for goodness sake, so people could tell him when the lynch was happening), and it seemed reasonable if he was on a scumfaction he'd be likely to be the one taking the shot, just because he wanted to, in addition to everything else.
Well, he didn't do anything. I've thought about this a lot; this means he's probably not scum, right? If he were scum, and he were on Galzria's team, well, Galz is the rolecop, and it's pretty likely Galz can't take the shot AND rolecop someone, so unless it's a three person team, Mcmc takes the shot there. If Mcmc were SK, he has to take the shot. Of course there's a perfectly plausible scenario where Mcmc is on some other team, and for whatever reason was not the person who took the shot.
But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.
here is the post that he made. At this point mcmc was at L-2. And what Robz is basically saying is that mcmc is less likely to be scum because 1. he didn't target anyone that night and 2. because Galz (if that is his partner, which it ended up being) wouldn't have performed the night kill because galz would have used the rolecop.
So the question here then is this:
If Galz didn't perform the Night Kill. Who did? Mcmc? Robz says that is impossible because he was tracked. Another member of the MU scum team? Robz? We know someone did it. Now I have made the argument before that it is possible that scum could use a power and NK on the same night... but I made that argument primarily based on the idea that scum typically can do both if they are the only remaining player alive... but this was night1 and both Galz and mcmc were still alive. even Robz thinks it rather unlikely....
Now there is the question of why would Robz do this? Or rather why would MU!Robz do this... pretend to be a tracker to save his teammate. I think the answer is potentially clear. He was panicked. One partner had already died in the night, the next was at L-2. He had to do something that would save his partner and also give himself some town credibility. The tracker claim worked beautifully. It really did! Mcmc was off the hook for basically the rest of the game until yesterday. Robz was also absent of some very major pressure.
Add in this as well as that very early into this day, Robz attempt to force the idea that there has to be a marquis scum team alive because ash was lynched--albeit this was in response to lio. Here is the quote:
Liopoil, you're not thinking this through. If scum thought there was any chance Jimm still had a shot, scum would have shot Jimm. Whoever he is, he couldn't afford a no-kill night.
But what he really couldn't afford was ash surviving and investigating. He has a one third chance of ash investigating him. And even if ash investigated one of the two others, it narrows down ash's guessing to 50%. Not shooting ash is just like way too dangerous for a maquis.
Now, for an MU, shooting ash is the WRONG call, because ash could be an MU! You want to leave as many possible MUs alive, and ash was never cleared of this. So you want to shoot either liopoil, the IC, or Jimm, who cannot actually be an MU (he was cleared by theorel). If you're really afraid of Jimm doctoring, just shoot Jimm. He can't doctor himself.
Shooting ash is the strictly best move for maquis. Really, it's the necessary move for maquis.
Shooting jimm or liopoil is the strictly best move for MU. Shooting ash doesn't necessarily hurt you though, I guess. But it limits the number of suspects for the town to decide between.
Here Robz attempts to explain that a MU wouldn't shoot ash because ash has the potential to be an MU. It is a decent argument. But... there is one thing. It is the perfect argument for Robz as MU to be making. Look at these sequences of events.
1. Mcmc flips as MU. Once this happens, Robz knows that he is going to get it hard in regard to his interaction with mcmc. See my above texts for an example of this.
2. Because of this Robz needs to find a way to avoid this suspicion as being fingered as the last remaining MU.
3. A good way of avoiding this is to make it look like there is no longer a MU scum team, but rather a Marquis one.
4. The best way to do this is to NK the Marquis cop!
5. Then very early in the day plant the idea in our heads that there can't be MU, because why would they kill off the Marquis cop!
Now there is one potential problem with this.... and that is why did Robz join onto the mcmc wagon and lynch his partner? Why not just wait it out and see if someone would change their vote to yuma instead! The answer is actually pretty simple. Robz knew that ash was going to be willing to move his vote onto mcmc, leaving Robz as the only remaining player not voting for MU scum. This would further implicate him as potentially being mcmc's partner... although the fact that he was the last player on the lynch wagon serves to implicate him as well.
Finally I have one last comment. We now know that Jimmm didn't use his doc ability last night. As a result we know that two nights ago a kill was not prevented by a doc. We also apparently know that theorel wasn't double NKed because of the lack of flavour like there was with shraeye. So to follow Robz's logic there were two scum teams alive two nights ago in MU and marquis. MU apparently killed theorel (which makes sense as he is their cop), but Marquis decided to let ashersky live and not shoot and risk being investigated by him? I think not. I think it is better explained that there was only 1 scum team left alive two nights ago, but with 2 players still alive. One night killed theorel. The other roleblocked or JKed me to prevent the LR from activating. And last night the remaining player killed ashersky. That player has to be Robz.
I won't even spend time looking at the possibility of him being a marquis with Glooble and themunch. Which I guess is possible.... But even w/o looking at that evidence--and I am happy to do so if people want me to--I am ready to vote for Robz. He has much more scumminess and evidence pointing in his direction than does Jimmm. I would be amazed to discover that Jimmm is scum over Robz.
Now because Robz will bring it up we should look at the balance question. If I am right... and I think I am right... the scum teams would basically be thus:
MU: Rolecop, Bomb, Roleblocker/JK
Marquis: Neighbor, Roleblocker
It isn't a perfect balance, but in my mind the Bomb is basically useless. It might hit the vig and it might hit the other scum team. Neighbor I think is even more powerful than it. I think it is balanced enough for me to feel comfortable with it.
Lio are we at a point where I can vote. Or should I wait for a bit?
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Your wrong, but most of your points are SO off base, but oh that last one is big time.
Now because Robz will bring it up we should look at the balance question. If I am right... and I think I am right... the scum teams would basically be thus:
MU: Rolecop, Bomb, Roleblocker/JK
Marquis: Neighbor, Roleblocker
It isn't a perfect balance, but in my mind the Bomb is basically useless. It might hit the vig and it might hit the other scum team. Neighbor I think is even more powerful than it. I think it is balanced enough for me to feel comfortable with it.
This is where you give yourself away as scum--there's no way you could actually think that was an acceptable balance from Jo's perspective (Jo, who we have heard from Jimm, was so committed to balance he was willing to add powers mid-game).
Bomb is basically useless?? Not at all. It's much better than Neighbor! Neighbor doesn't even do anything super helpful. Bomb is actually a great way to balance a smaller scum team against a larger one, though, because it assures that the 2 person team is going to get in a venge kill against the bigger team if the bigger team shoots them. Bomb is actually the perfect role to give to a 2-perosn team, given the presence of a 3-person team.
You've also misstated (deliberately?) the Maquis team. Glooble was a 1-shot Roleblocker, not a roleblocker. So basically you are saying the MUs have a full Rolecop, Bomb, and some sort of Blocker... to compete with the Maquis' Neighbor and 1-shot Roleblocker. Frankly, this is impossible. Wouldn't Glooble have at least been made a full Roleblocker, to make these teams remotely fair? No, there's no way the third person is a roleblocking MU.
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As for the rest of your case, I agree that my actions resemble someone who was allied with mcmcsalot. The alternative answer is simply that scum can both use a power and perform the night kill, and that Galz did the kill. Is it what I expected? No. But it's not the most farfetched thing in the world. It's certainly less farfetched than the scum teams you proposed.
As to who killed ash and why, of course it's WIFOM. Still, I hardly think killing ash would put me in a better position than killing lio, if I was scum. Ash has been my biggest defender, unwilling to vote me, and 100% convinced of my towniness at every step of the game. Lio, on the other hand, has repeatedly clashed with me and voted for me, and is himself completely immune from suspicion as an IC (whereas ash was not). But, again, it's WIFOM... you'll say I want to do the thing that doesn't make sense so I can argue against it, blah.
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Really the only thing giving me pause about you, though, is the lack of an extra kill two nights ago. I admit that doesn't make much sense. Surely you would want to kill ash then? I mean, maybe it's just that you didn't think he was going to investigate you, he was going to investigate liopoil. So by not killing, you get to enjoy a day where we are MU hunting instead of maquis, because for all we knew all the maquis were dead. of course you weren't cleared from being MU...
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Look, I agree it isn't a perfect balance. But I don't think it is as far off as you seem to think it is. But regardless, you do bring back the point of scum being Marquis rather than MU. Like I mentioned in the post above I think you fit the MU role and haven't looked very closely at the possibility of you being Marquis.
That would make the teams:
MU: Rolecop, Bomb
Marquis: Neighbor, 1-shot Roleblocker, x-shot JK
This doesn't seem anymore balanced than the alternative though. A little off, but close enough.
Or if you think I am still lying.
MU: Rolecop, Bomb
Marquis: Neighbor 1-shot Roleblocker, X-role.
Again, doesn't seem anymore balanced than the alternative. A little off, but close enough.
I guess I will be looking closely at the possibility of you (Robz) being Marquis tonight after all.
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Robz, there is definatly a fair chance of there bieng another MU. and if there is another MU I feel very good about it being you.
Yuma, you can go ahead and vote. I'll make a solid rule actually:
Anyone can vote all they want, as long as they don't ever put anyone at two votes, or L-1, unless the only person who could quickhammer is me.
I think this makes it so that scum can never quickhammer. Therefore I don't think I'm going to vote until I hammer.
Part of the reason that I was saying we shouldn't worry about Jimmmmm is related to this. We need everyone except the lynchee to agree. I was fairly sure that yuma and robz were going to have solid "scumreads" on each other, and leave their votes parked on each other.
Yuma stole the points I was going to make about why MU might kill ash. what seems less likely is that maquis wouldn't kill anyone that one night. I could make a case that it HAS to be MU, not maquis based on this.
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maquis would especially want to kill Ash the night theorel died because they knew he would investigate me, which would clear me. The only thing I can think of is maybe they thought Yuma's LR would go through, so they thought that maybe they could make town assume that there was only MU left by yuma not dying (Jimmmmm saves him). Or I guess if Yuma was Maquis he could have used LR and not killed anyone so that he would survive. (again relying on Jimmmmm saving him.)
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Look, I agree it isn't a perfect balance. But I don't think it is as far off as you seem to think it is. But regardless, you do bring back the point of scum being Marquis rather than MU. Like I mentioned in the post above I think you fit the MU role and haven't looked very closely at the possibility of you being Marquis.
That would make the teams:
MU: Rolecop, Bomb
Marquis: Neighbor, 1-shot Roleblocker, x-shot JK
This doesn't seem anymore balanced than the alternative though. A little off, but close enough.
Or if you think I am still lying.
MU: Rolecop, Bomb
Marquis: Neighbor 1-shot Roleblocker, X-role.
Again, doesn't seem anymore balanced than the alternative. A little off, but close enough.
I guess I will be looking closely at the possibility of you (Robz) being Marquis tonight after all.
I haven't looked closely at the possibility of me being maquis because I am not maquis. I haven't addressed the accusation that I am a maquis because there haven't been any. I am self-aware that the case that I am MU is better than the case that I am maquis (although I have voted to lynch members of both teams, but a smart partner would have had to, sure).
If you do think I'm maquis, I would argue that I was most directly responsible for shifting the Day 3 lynch to Glooble instead of liopoil. I re-read them both and settled, narrowly, on Glooble. The town then followed my lead and we lynched maquis Glooble. Hopefully this is at least some evidence that I am not maquis.
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Robz, there is definatly a fair chance of there bieng another MU. and if there is another MU I feel very good about it being you.
I think there's like zero chance of the MU team having three people including a Bomb, and the maquis team having two people. Bomb is a role that makes perfect sense for a smaller scum team to get.
Yuma, you can go ahead and vote. I'll make a solid rule actually:
Anyone can vote all they want, as long as they don't ever put anyone at two votes, or L-1, unless the only person who could quickhammer is me.
I think this makes it so that scum can never quickhammer. Therefore I don't think I'm going to vote until I hammer.
Part of the reason that I was saying we shouldn't worry about Jimmmmm is related to this. We need everyone except the lynchee to agree. I was fairly sure that yuma and robz were going to have solid "scumreads" on each other, and leave their votes parked on each other.
Blah, liopoil, you are really frustrating me. I'm not convinced yuma is scum. I'm really not sure whether it's him or Jimm. I'm quite worried Jimm has pulled one over on us. All I know is that you will lose this game for town if you lynch me. I promise you lio. And it's frustrating for me, it's frustrating that we are in this position, because I don't know you as well as I know other peop,e, and I feel like if you were Eevee, or theorel, or ashersky, you would be agreeing with me here. Which again goes back to the point that killing ash instead of you was a huge, gaping, fatal flaw in my strategy if I were scum.
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I mean really it's a hard call, because I'm not even sure which of yuma/jimm is the scum. And the lack of 2 kills on night, uh, 4, makes me look bad. Also, that mcmc was scum and I pretty much saved him on Day 2. I think other evidence--what we know about the composition of the teams, ash dying last night--points to someone other than me. But I couldn't even say for sure who that is. Yuma just feels scummier to me at this point for making some mistakes in his arguments, which read to me like hes trying to throw whatever he can at me and see what sticks; he's not actually interested in scum-hunting, he just wants a lynch other than him so he can win.
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I haven't looked closely at the possibility of me being maquis because I am not maquis. I haven't addressed the accusation that I am a maquis because there haven't been any. I am self-aware that the case that I am MU is better than the case that I am maquis (although I have voted to lynch members of both teams, but a smart partner would have had to, sure).
If you do think I'm maquis, I would argue that I was most directly responsible for shifting the Day 3 lynch to Glooble instead of liopoil. I re-read them both and settled, narrowly, on Glooble. The town then followed my lead and we lynched maquis Glooble. Hopefully this is at least some evidence that I am not maquis.
Is that a better argument than the one I have? The one where I was the real catalyst for actually creating, presenting and pushing for a Glooble lynch Day3 when there were a bunch of other options?
I don't think the town followed your lead. They followed my lead, they followed theorel's lead. You just jumped on toward the end.
The order of votes Day3 was as such:
ashersky
yuma
theorel
mcmc (who later unvoted and switched to lio)
yuma again
liopoil
robz
dsell
Your vote came on glooble at a point where lio had 3 votes in Jimmmm, mcmc and Glooble (although you were on lio at that time as well). But at that time ashersky, yuma and themunch (and maybe others) had all expressed that they would not be voting for lio at that time. So at least from my view point it looked much more likely that glooble would be lynched over lio. Glooble had very little townie read support, whereas lio had quite a bit.
So I think it is a huge exaggeration to say that you were the most directly responsible for Glooble's lynch and to say that town followed your lead. I would go as far to call it an out-right lie.
and no I haven't present a case on whether or not you could be marquis. But I will tonight.
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I don't think it's an out-right lie, although perhaps I understated your involvement in Glooble getting picked. But at the time I re-read lio and Glooble to decide who I should vote for, here was the vote count:
Unofficial Vote Count
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, yuma. liopoil {L-2}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (4): Robz888, Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble {L-2}
TheMunch (1): Dsell
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is February 8th at noon, forum time.
It was deadlocked, with only Munch and Dsell not voting. Dsell is kind of a useless vote, probably would have followed the crowd, since he wasn't participating too much. Munch obviously would have preferred to vote for liopoil, since he is scum with Glooble.
At this point, I re-read them, and decided to go for Glooble. Had I not done so, I don't think it's clear Glooble would have been lynched.
But as you say, you were very anti-Glooble. Okay, I should weigh this, perhaps it means I should lean toward lynching Jimm. Who is not on the Glooble wagon at this point, fwiw.
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when you were making your case on me you said I only voted glooble when it was clear that he was going to be lynched.
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when you were making your case on me you said I only voted glooble when it was clear that he was going to be lynched.
What I meant was you only voted for him when it was clear it was going to be one or the other of you.
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I just re-read Jimm for his interactions with Glooble/Munch. They are sparse. He is a critical supporter of the lio-instead-of-glooble campaign.
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Please take a look and see if you think it's possible. I certainly do.
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I'm still V/LA until tommorow afternoon. kooshie says she will hammer today in newbie mafia, my only other game. So that game will be either in night or over, and I can focus on this game. I plan to do full rereads of all three of you, and make big posts and stuff soon.
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I'm still V/LA until tommorow afternoon. kooshie says she will hammer today in newbie mafia, my only other game. So that game will be either in night or over, and I can focus on this game. I plan to do full rereads of all three of you, and make big posts and stuff soon.
Hooray! I know it's a lot of work but you really have to. It's all riding on you. And please please please consider Jimm too.
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And remember that running out the clock wouldn't actually kill us, so take your time. We can afford to No Lynch today. Although you won't be around for tomorrow if that happens, probably.
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If you do think I'm maquis, I would argue that I was most directly responsible for shifting the Day 3 lynch to Glooble instead of liopoil. I re-read them both and settled, narrowly, on Glooble. The town then followed my lead and we lynched maquis Glooble. Hopefully this is at least some evidence that I am not maquis.
To me that's cancelled out by the fact that yuma was gunning for Glooble for ages before he was lynched.
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I agree with Robz that we're probably looking for Maquis. I mean, it's possible we're looking for MU, but if so Glooble and Munch should feel pretty hard done by.
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I agree that Robz would probably want to leave ash alive. I think ash most likely would have investigated me, so that worst case I'm an IC, although if he was convinced mcmc was the last MU, he may have investigated yuma who he was more suspicious of than Robz. If the final four were me/lio, ash, Robz and yuma, with ash gunning for yuma, chances are I/lio either believe ash is Town and follow his read, or believe ash is scum and vote him.
So yeah, from scum Robz' point of view, killing ash doesn't seem like the best way to go. But, you know, WIFOM and all of that.
So at this point I'm leaning towards yuma. But I'm still very wary of Robz.
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I agree that Robz would probably want to leave ash alive. I think ash most likely would have investigated me, so that worst case I'm an IC, although if he was convinced mcmc was the last MU, he may have investigated yuma who he was more suspicious of than Robz. If the final four were me/lio, ash, Robz and yuma, with ash gunning for yuma, chances are I/lio either believe ash is Town and follow his read, or believe ash is scum and vote him.
So yeah, from scum Robz' point of view, killing ash doesn't seem like the best way to go. But, you know, WIFOM and all of that.
So at this point I'm leaning towards yuma. But I'm still very wary of Robz.
I don't quite understand this... so help me out if I am missing something.
I feel like Robz was making the argument that MU scum wouldn't want to kill ashersky. Which is a good point, except for the decoy ploy that I brought up earlier. But just before you say that scum is more likely to be Marquis than MU... something I kinda agree with but am still pretty skeptical about...
But what about Robz as Marquis? Why would any Marquis player not kill ashersky. We have no idea who ashersky was going to investigate. That is only something ashersky could know. Maybe he was leaning a certain way toward the end of day, but that can easily change based on re-reads, end of day interactions, etc... Any Marquis would be just plain stupid to not kill ashersky because there is a very distinct chance that ashersky would investigate that player, out them as scum and it would basically be game over.
So I don't get how it is possible for you to say that 1. scum is most likely Marquis and 2. Robz as Marquis would want to leave ashersky alive.
Or am I missing something?
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If Robz is Maquis, he wants to kill ash because ash is the Maquis Cop. But in general, he wants to keep ash alive because ash kept saying he was Town. So if Maquis Robz thinks that the risk of ash investigating him is small enough (and why would you investigate your biggest Town read?) and the likelihood of ash being vocal and forceful enough about Robz' Towniness to avoid Robz getting lynched is high enough, then he kills liopoil.
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So possibility of Robz being the Marquis:
So the big thing here is this:
Would Marquis Robz be willing to fakeclaim 1-shot tracker (because for him to be the last remaining scum he has to be a Jk or RBer of somekind... although I guess it is conceivably possible that he could be a jack-of-all-trades of sorts? has that been considered or discussed at all?) to save mcmc day2. Because if Robz is just a SK or RB it would not be a smart play as marquis to lie about tracking someone. Think about it. Because if mcmc (who never said whether or not he used night actions or not) actually had used a night action, that would be the end of the story for Robz.
All mcmc would have to do is say he actually did use a night action (some sort of claim), say robz was lying and robz would be lynched. So I don't think that a Robz!marquis JK/RB would do that. Now if he were a jack-of-all-trades... maybe. But that might be a bit of a stretch.
But for completion sake we should look at Robz's interaction with Glooble and themunch
Robz had a town read on Glooble all the up until mid-day 3. He was one of the three players who voted for Glooble early for lurking and then unvoted because of his "genuine reaction." He continued to have this town read on him until it was between lio and glooble late day 3.
He was also an early proponent of the 1-scum in shraeye/raereae/themunch trifecta. Something that ended up being true. Although he completely abandoned this idea once shraeye was NK night 2.
feel like waving some of my reads. Munch specifically. With shraeye being town, I don't think it's fair to munch that I keep to the evidence that points to him next. I've just been very wrong.
Ashersky and Glooble, I may have gone too far toward saying they are definitely town. I still think they are town though.
some random stuff:
Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
maybe a breadcrumb. Does Robz normally breadcrumb?
and I have to bring this up again, I think this is the third time... but I dont' think i have ever received a response...
To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
I said before that this quote reminded me soooo much of scum!Robz in the last blitz game where he said in the quicktopic that he and joth should
Just be your town self. Let's play this like its M-XII or M-XVI, if we were secretly scum in those games. We're just two town guys, having fun, mislynching across the board. Our reads are so bad! Etc etc.
scratch that... Robz did respond to it, basically saying that people often joke about it. Which is true.
And in looking from robz's opening day3 post about Glooble being townie... he doesn't really make a smooth transition. It really seemed like he saw that town was moving in the direction of ash, lio or glooble and said that he preferred either lynch over ash. (although at this time it appears he was rather V/LA, but did have plenty of time to respond to themunch's accusations against him... but that is a different sort of time commitment)
and ends up:
Vote: Liopoil for now, but I am very willing to go with Glooble if that's preferred. I urge the Glooble voters to give liopoil another look, though.
I should really give EVERYBODY another look, but I won't have time yet for a few days. Apologies for being really busy IRL.
That isn't everything, but I think it is enough.
Morale of the story is thus: I don't think Robz could be marquis if he is just a x-shot JK/RB. I just don't. The narrative doesn't make sense for it to be as such. Like I said he could be if he is some sort of JOAT, but we have no idea if that is even possible. If it is possible... not that we have any way of finding out... then I do think Robz fits the narrative with his interactions with Glooble and themunch. Townie read on Glooble after he gets some early pressure, a little bit of bussing of themunch, but dropped once he actually has an opportunity to press it and a little bit of bussing from themunch as well, who I have seen bus before. His lateness to the Glooble lynch wagon--although it is true he did join it whereas others did not. But like I said, for that to work he has to be something other than just x-shot JK/RB. Because I can't see marquis!Robz pretending to track mcmc.
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All mcmc would have to do is say he actually did use a night action (some sort of claim), say robz was lying and robz would be lynched. So I don't think that a Robz!marquis JK/RB would do that. Now if he were a jack-of-all-trades... maybe. But that might be a bit of a stretch.
I've asked this question before, and I don't think I've got an answer: What result does a Tracker get if he Tracks someone who tried to take an action but was Roleblocked/Jailkept?
I agree that if Robz is not MU, then he certainly had to know that mcmc took no action. But maybe Robz caused him to take no action?
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All mcmc would have to do is say he actually did use a night action (some sort of claim), say robz was lying and robz would be lynched. So I don't think that a Robz!marquis JK/RB would do that. Now if he were a jack-of-all-trades... maybe. But that might be a bit of a stretch.
I've asked this question before, and I don't think I've got an answer: What result does a Tracker get if he Tracks someone who tried to take an action but was Roleblocked/Jailkept?
I agree that if Robz is not MU, then he certainly had to know that mcmc took no action. But maybe Robz caused him to take no action?
Roleblocking should happen before tracking (or else roleblock wouldn't do anything). So I think I receive a "nothing" result if my tracking target gets blocked. I'll ask Joth, though.
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and now whether or not Jimmm can be marquis (since he can't be MU)
Like I mentioned before my main concerns with Jimmm stemmed from me thinking that he might be MU. As such I haven't spent much time considering him as Marquis. But Robz seems to think there is something there...
Early post on sparky--remember him? themunch became him to remind everyone--about how he was lurking. This was the first in a series of posts after jimmmm had made his case on eevee and started to turn from it.
Jimmmm votes Glooble along with a handful of others and also unvotes because of Glooble's reaction...
and basically had no other interaction with munch or glooble day1
Day2:
and I didn't see anything about either of them day2.
Day3:
says this about Glooble:
I get the case on Glooble, and I think it has merit, especially considering we've been lynching more vocal players, and they end up being Town. Glooble has played a fairly "safe" game, although has started contributing more reads. I guess I would put Glooble down as slightly scummy for now, and keep my eye on him.
and this:
Okay, not really sure where to go with this game at this point, so I'll just put down some thoughts.
I think it's most likely that we have 3-5 scum in the game. I guess 6 is possible, but seems unlikely. That means with Galz gone, there are 2-4 scum in {ash, Robz, yuma, Glooble, liopoil, mcmc, theorel, Munch, Dsell}. I think Dsell is probably Town. I also think theorel is probably Town, although I'm less sure about that. I do think that Robz and mcmc are almost definitely on the same team, and at this stage I'm thinking Town. And Robz seems certain that ash is Town. Granted that's a lot of assumptions, but if I go with that then that leaves me with 2-4 scum in {yuma, Glooble, lio, Munch}
where he puts both glooble and themunch into potential scum category.
another quote regarding glooble--and later themunch... where he just doesn't find glooble to be scummy.
I re-read Glooble, and as much as I wanted him to be scummy so that I could feel good about supporting the lynch of someone who's not me, I just didn't. His lurking seems like genuine busyness (although I could be more sympathetic than most to that given how little time I've seemed to have to play Mafia lately), and when he has been posting, he just read like a Townie who wants to contribute but is a little lost at times from being a bit behind. And unless there's something I missed, I haven't found any of the arguments on him terribly convincing either. So while I'd obviously prefer his lynch than mine, he doesn't look like a great candidate to me.
But we obviously need to decide on someone before deadline, preferably before a soft deadline. So I don't know. I think I should take a closer look at yuma and Munch.
and instead votes for lio.
Okay, I re-read lio for an alternative to Glooble. While he hasn't said anything in particular to make me think he's scum, he seems to have played a very safe game, not putting himself out there terribly much. Seeing as though the loud talkers all seem to be flipping Town, it seems likely that there is scum in this game who is trying not to be controversial. So while there's no one in particular who I think has a very high chance of being scum, I will Vote: liopoil since I think he has more chance of flipping scum than Glooble.
Of course, I'd rather lynch Glooble than no one, so if they're our only choices I'd be willing to hammer.
So the next step is to consider whether or not Jimmm is possible as scum. That is from my perspective is it possible for him to be the x-shot JK/RB? And I guess it is. He did claim the 1-shot doc--the claim that is hardest to substantiate--and relatively similar to JK in that it can prevent a death. I think it is also worth looking at what the balance of the whole set up is and see if we really believe that joth added a doc to the setup for town or if he potentially added a JK to a scum team... because as often happens there is a little truth in every lie.
So confirmed town (not including Robz, yuma or Jimmm's claim into this, but will in a minute) had 3 cops, 1-shot vig, IC, two neighbors, 1-shot death proof
MU: Rolecop, Bomb, X?
Marquis: Neighbor, 1-shot Roleblocker, X?
If you add in my role it is: 3 Cops, 1-shot vig, IC, 2 Neighbors, 1-shot death proof, 1-LR
MU: Rolecop, Bomb, X?
Marquis: Neighbor, 1-shot Roleblocker, X?
If you add in Jimmmm's role it is: 3 Cops, 1-shot Vig, IC, 2 Neighbors, 1-shot Death proof, Beloved Princess with 1-shot Doc.
So just in looking at this, did town really need another 1-shot doc, or did another scum team need another 1-shot JK? But we also have to ask the question of whether or not BP makes sense as a scum role... I don't understand what would happen... So Jimmm would get lynched, flip as scum and would town still skip the next day?
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I actually completely forgot the beloved princess aspect. I'm not even 100 percebt sure what that means.
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I think scum Beloved Princess would be at least borderline scummy, along the lines of Jester. Although technically we skip a day if I'm mislynched, so technically if I were scum with the same role it wouldn't do anything, although I guess if that's what jo wanted to do he would have worded it differently.
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I actually completely forgot the beloved princess aspect. I'm not even 100 percebt sure what that means.
If I'm lynched we skip a Day phase. So it goes to night, night actions are submitted and resolved, then it immediately goes to night again.
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I think scum Beloved Princess would be at least borderline scummy, along the lines of Jester. Although technically we skip a day if I'm mislynched, so technically if I were scum with the same role it wouldn't do anything, although I guess if that's what jo wanted to do he would have worded it differently.
So as scum it is kinda like vengeful in a way.... as town it is just plain a negative utility.
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oh... sorry misread that...
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so I guess I am at the point where I need to start making decisions....
If the remaining scum is MU I know it is Robz. Because it can't be me, it can't be Jimmm, it can't be lio. And the evidence does point solidly toward Robz. I would put it at 100/0 toward Robz.
If the remaining scum is Marquis it is either Jimmm or Robz. At this point I am still thinking that Robz is unlikely because of his tracker claim (although did we decide that he could have known mcmc didn't use an action because he blocked him? That would make Robz at least a 2-shot RB/JK, which kinda makes sense since MU had Rolecop with unlimited shots..., but still is kinda a risky venture for a scum player to do)... Jimmm fits the bill pretty well in regard to his interactions with Glooble and Themunch, and I think his ability, especially the 1-shot "cop" addition could actually be because scum was underpowered this game? So I think Jimmm is more likely to be scum if the remaining scum is Marquis. I would put it at 70/30 toward Jimmmm
So then the question is whether or not we have a MU or a Marquis. There are two points for there being a Marquis in the arrangement of the PRs and in the killing of the Marquis cop tonight. There is one point for there being a MU because of the 1 NK of the MU cop Night4. So I would put this at 70/30 in favor of Marquis.
I dont' know if this is the best way to do this, but multiply those results and add them up and we have:
100*30=Robz as MU (3300)
0*30=Jimmm as Mu (0)
70*70=Jimmm as Marquis (4900)
30*70=Robz as Marquis (2100)
Jimmm = 4900; Robz = 5400. So at least this way Robz is most likely to be scum... although that is just using semi-random numbers to reflect how I feel about things and isn't statistical at all. You can all basically ignore the math... I am ignoring it, but needed to do it just to get my thoughts and ideas out there and this was one of them, that didn't turn out to be as useful as I had imagined.
Man, I don't know. Lio what do you think?
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I'm cautiously leaning toward Jimm.
I really think it's a maquis, because shooting ash only makes sense for a maquis. The missing nightkill--I can't come up with an explanaytion, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Killing ash though... that's just the wrong move for an MU. You kill liopoil or Jimm, if you're MU, because they can't be MU.
So... ultimately, Jimm fits the mold for the last maquis much better than yuma.
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I don't really debate your numbers, yuma. If you think there's any chance the last scum is MU, you have to think it's me.
And of course if I were scum I would be trying to persuade you that the ash kill makes no sense for an MU.
But... that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't. Do you remember how strongly ash supported me? How constantly he mentioned my towniness? His town read on me didn't deviate all game. I'm not saying that you should accept his opinion; I'm saying that strategically, killing him and leaving liopoil was a game-losing move for me as scum. I mean really, if you think there's any chance of MU, and you split the difference, you have to think it's me, lio has always suspected me, and Jimm (who I think is actually the last scum) will of course go for me. So I'm pretty screwed here. So you have to believe I was willing to put myself in this fairly screwed position, rather than likely easily winning by just killing lio/jimm and having me and ash and whoever lynch you today.
I would also again bring up the roles. Bomb is a great role for a scum team that is down a member to begin with.
So while I understand you thinking I'm more scummy if you count the existence of MU, I think you should discount that possibility, for the reaosns I mentione.d
My re-read of Jimm has made me a lot more confident that he could be on the same team as Glooble/Munch. It's fairly convincing, I think.
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Okay, I'm back. newbie mafia still is in day, but whatever. I've changed my mind and decided to consider jimmmmm just as much as the other two of you. I thought robz and yuma had townreads on him and were only going to vote for each other for some reason. anyway, I'm going to respond your all the big posts shortly.
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But... that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't. Do you remember how strongly ash supported me? How constantly he mentioned my towniness? His town read on me didn't deviate all game. I'm not saying that you should accept his opinion; I'm saying that strategically, killing him and leaving liopoil was a game-losing move for me as scum. I mean really, if you think there's any chance of MU, and you split the difference, you have to think it's me, lio has always suspected me, and Jimm (who I think is actually the last scum) will of course go for me. So I'm pretty screwed here. So you have to believe I was willing to put myself in this fairly screwed position, rather than likely easily winning by just killing lio/jimm and having me and ash and whoever lynch you today.
I do see that and I have tried to take that into consideration, but I still maintain that it is a terribly risky move for scum to not NK their cop just on the chance that scum is investigated. I mean yes I see not killing lio is bad for you if you are scum... but it is far worse for you as scum if ash were to investigate you (as unlikely as it was) and live to tell about it... But you do make sense and I see your points.
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But... that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't. Do you remember how strongly ash supported me? How constantly he mentioned my towniness? His town read on me didn't deviate all game. I'm not saying that you should accept his opinion; I'm saying that strategically, killing him and leaving liopoil was a game-losing move for me as scum. I mean really, if you think there's any chance of MU, and you split the difference, you have to think it's me, lio has always suspected me, and Jimm (who I think is actually the last scum) will of course go for me. So I'm pretty screwed here. So you have to believe I was willing to put myself in this fairly screwed position, rather than likely easily winning by just killing lio/jimm and having me and ash and whoever lynch you today.
I do see that and I have tried to take that into consideration, but I still maintain that it is a terribly risky move for scum to not NK their cop just on the chance that scum is investigated. I mean yes I see not killing lio is bad for you if you are scum... but it is far worse for you as scum if ash were to investigate you (as unlikely as it was) and live to tell about it... But you do make sense and I see your points.
Oh, okay, yes I agree with you that if I am maquis, I might have shot ashersky anyway (although there was just such low likelihood of him investigating me). That would have been a tough call. All I am saying is that as MU, I certainly would not have shot ashersky. But, ashersky was shot, therefore, I'm not MU. Now, you can look at the case of me being maquis, and would I shoot ashersky, of coruse there's an argument there both ways. I just think the evidence against Jimm is better than the evidence against you (or me obviously) to be maquis.
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But... that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't. Do you remember how strongly ash supported me? How constantly he mentioned my towniness? His town read on me didn't deviate all game. I'm not saying that you should accept his opinion; I'm saying that strategically, killing him and leaving liopoil was a game-losing move for me as scum. I mean really, if you think there's any chance of MU, and you split the difference, you have to think it's me, lio has always suspected me, and Jimm (who I think is actually the last scum) will of course go for me. So I'm pretty screwed here. So you have to believe I was willing to put myself in this fairly screwed position, rather than likely easily winning by just killing lio/jimm and having me and ash and whoever lynch you today.
I do see that and I have tried to take that into consideration, but I still maintain that it is a terribly risky move for scum to not NK their cop just on the chance that scum is investigated. I mean yes I see not killing lio is bad for you if you are scum... but it is far worse for you as scum if ash were to investigate you (as unlikely as it was) and live to tell about it... But you do make sense and I see your points.
Oh, okay, yes I agree with you that if I am maquis, I might have shot ashersky anyway (although there was just such low likelihood of him investigating me). That would have been a tough call. All I am saying is that as MU, I certainly would not have shot ashersky. But, ashersky was shot, therefore, I'm not MU. Now, you can look at the case of me being maquis, and would I shoot ashersky, of coruse there's an argument there both ways. I just think the evidence against Jimm is better than the evidence against you (or me obviously) to be maquis.
Yes I think I agree with that.
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Oh, okay, yes I agree with you that if I am maquis, I might have shot ashersky anyway
Implies that he isn't maquis but did shoot ash. Scum slip that robz is MU?
just wanted to mention that. Working on bigger stuffs now.
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Oh, okay, yes I agree with you that if I am maquis, I might have shot ashersky anyway
Implies that he isn't maquis but did shoot ash. Scum slip that robz is MU?
just wanted to mention that. Working on bigger stuffs now.
Not a scumslip. Here "anyway" means "even though he was a big supporter of mine."
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100*30=Robz as MU (3300)
0*30=Jimmm as Mu (0)
70*70=Jimmm as Marquis (4900)
30*70=Robz as Marquis (2100)
Jimmm = 4900; Robz = 5400. So at least this way Robz is most likely to be scum... although that is just using semi-random numbers to reflect how I feel about things and isn't statistical at all. You can all basically ignore the math... I am ignoring it, but needed to do it just to get my thoughts and ideas out there and this was one of them, that didn't turn out to be as useful as I had imagined.
Man, I don't know. Lio what do you think?
I don't think this is correct. Let's just figure out the chance of Jimmm being scum based on those estimated numbers. (and we assume Yuma is town)
for Jimmmm to be scum there must both be a maquis, and Jimmmmm is this maquis. You say that there is a 7/10 chance of both. 7/10 times 7/10= 49/100. That leaves 51/100 for robz. So it doesn't mean anything.
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wait, actually your math is right. You just multiplied 30 by 100 and got 3300 :P. So otherwise it's fine.
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Anyone want to do a post count? It hardly matters but why not? I can't because when I Ctrl-F "isotropic username: name of player" it just says "more than 100 results" and won't tell me exactly how many.
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Anyone want to do a post count? It hardly matters but why not? I can't because when I Ctrl-F "isotropic username: name of player" it just says "more than 100 results" and won't tell me exactly how many.
sure
hitting the print button to the side helps more
Robz 397
yuma 222
lio 198
Jimmm 258
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PLAYER LIST:
dead: When they died
Cuzz Station Changeling Cop Dr. Julian Bashir D1
Raerae Station Neighbor Quark N1
Galzria Mirror Universe Rolecop Constable Odo N1
Eevee Station 1-shot Vigilante Major Kira Nerys D2
Shraeye Station Innocent Child Jake Sisko N2
Glooble Maquis 1-shot Roleblocker Captain Benjamin Sisko D3
TheMunch Maquis Neighbor Nog N3
Dsell Station 1-shot Deathproof Lt. Ezri Dax D4
theorel Station Mirror Universe Cop Chief Miles O'Brien N4
mcmcsalot [/s]Mirror Universe Bomb General Martok D5
ashersky Station Maquis Cop Lt. Cmmdr. Worf N5
Alive: #of posts
Robz: 397
Jimmmmm: 258
Yuma: 222
Liopoil: Station neighbor Rom 198
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The following is a summary of all the confirmed actions that have been taken and when they were taken. This includes all lynches, night actions, and claims. If forget when all the cop things happened, so I'll just say them all at the end.
D1
Cuzz claims
Cuzz lynched
N1
Maquis kill galzria
MU kill raerae
D2
robz claims
robz claims negative tracker result on mcmc.
eevee lynched
N2
Maquis kill shraeye
MU kill shraeye
D3
Mcmc claims
glooble lynched
N3
Maquis attempts to kill Dsell
Dsell one-shot deathproof used up
MU kills munch
D4
Theorel partclaims
Theorel claims negative result on liopoil and Jimmmmm
Ashersky partclaims
Ashersky claims negative result on theorel
Liopoil claims
Liopoil claims lots of things were said in his neighborhood QT
Theorel fullclaims
Ashersky fullclaims
Yuma claims
Dsell claims
Jimmmmm partclaims
Dsell lynched
N4
Scum kills theorel
Ashersky investigates liopoil
D5
Yuma claims to have attempted LR N4
Ashersky claims negative result on liopoil
Mcmcsalot lynched
N5
Scum kills ashersky
D6
Jimmmmm fullclaims
(munch/glooble/???) Maquis kills: Galzria, Shraeye, Dsell
(Galzria/mcmcsalot/???) MU kills: Raerae, Shraeye, Munch
???Kills: theorel, ashersky
(theorel) MU investigations: Jimmmmm, liopoil (negative)
(Ashersky) Maquis investigations: liopoil, theorel (negative)
(cuzz) SK investigations: none
claimed, unverified actions:
Jimmmm saved theorel N1
Robz tracked mcmc N1, got negative result
Yuma tried to LR N4
unverified claims:
Jimmmmm: 1-shot doc, Beloved princess
Yuma: 1-shot lighting rod
Robz: 1-shot tracker
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The five wagons:
mcmcsalot has been lynched. He was General Martok, the Mirror Universe-aligned Bomb.
yuma (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
mcmcsalot (4): Jimmmmm, liopoil, yuma, Robz
Not Voting: no one!
With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Dsell has been lynched. He was Ezri Dax, the station-aligned 1-shot deathproof.
Vote Count 4.3
liopoil (1): Dsell
Dsell (5): ashersky, yuma, theorel, Robz888, mcmcsalot
Not Voting (2): Jimmmmm, liopoil
With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Glooble has been lynched. He was Benjamin Sisko, the Maquis-aligned 1-shot Roleblocker.
Vote Count 3.3
Glooble (6): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell {lynched}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (3): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble
Not Voting (0):
With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Eevee has been lynched. He was Major Kira Nerys, the Station-aligned 1-shot Vigilante.
Vote Count 2.10
shraeye (2): theorel, Jimmmmm
Liopoil (3): Eevee, glooble, mcmcsalot
Eevee (7): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
Not voting (1): Dsell
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Vote Count 1.16
Cuzz (8): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz
Not Voting (2): Dsell, theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Cuzz has been lynched. He was Dr. Julian Bashir, Station-Aligned Changeling Cop.
If you take out dead players it's:
mcmc: Jimmmmm, liopoil, yuma, Robz.
Dsell: Yuma, robz
Glooble: Yuma, liopoil, robz
Eevee: liopoil, Yuma, robz
Cuzz: liopoil, robz
the names are listed in order of getting on the wagon. Jimmmmm is only on one while robz is on all of them, and he is last for all of them.
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Yuma is in 4/5, as am I. Robz hammers twice and is second to last three times. Twice him and mcmc are the last two, both times on townies.
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I am not sure exactly what you are getting at with this, but I should point out that if you are going by end of day vote counts, I am pretty sure that a few of them aren't in order... I can't remember which ones, but I remember that at least one was a while ago. Not sure if that is a big deal, but if it is I felt I should point it out.
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I was going from the flip posts. they are in reverse order, D5-D1. It's for reference later. There's lots of juicy things to analyze in there!
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No I mean joth's flip posts... sometimes the vote count was out of order... I'll see if I can find the example that I remember.
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oh I understand now.
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Cuzz voters: galz, robz, eevee, themunch, galz, robz, shray, shray, glooble, lio, ash, raerae, ash, robz, ash
So it looks like the order should be: themunch, galz, shraeye, glooble, lio, raerae, robz, ash
joths: Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
so just themunch/Galz were flipped... no big deal
Eevee voters: ash, shraeye, themunch, lio, yuma, mcmc, robz
Eevee (7): ashersky, shraeye, TheMunch, liopoil, yuma, mcmcsalot, Robz888
Good here
Glooble voters: ash, yuma, theorel, mcmc, yuma, lio, robz, dsell
Glooble (6): ashersky, theorel, yuma, liopoil, Robz888, Dsell
Good here as well...
Dsell voters: yuma, lio, ashersky, yuma, theorel, robz, mcmc
Dsell (5): ashersky, yuma, theorel, Robz888, mcmcsalot
also good.
Well I guess the only mistake was with the day1 lynch with galz and themunch and isn't a big deal...
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Robz, Yuma, and mcmc voted Dsell three posts in a row, in that order. Yuma had already voted Dsell earlier, and was just now going back to voting Dsell.
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Going to go re-read you three now.
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Going to go re-read you three now.
Ok, I am very interested in what you have to say. I think I will likely be voting once you are finished.
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FYI I'm at work now, so I can kind of keep up, but can't really contribute. I'll be home in ~6 hours.
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Jimmmmm first. I'm not totally done yet. Just through the first two days, but those are the biggest ones by far.
This may be true in general but I just want to emphasize this now: do not lynch me without giving me a chance to claim. If at any point in the game you want to put me on even L - 1, instead, announce your intent to do so and at my next availability I will claim. I will be pissed if you lynch me while I'm away.
his second post of the game. If Jimmmmm isn't beloved then he was planning that from the very beginning, for some odd reason.
Also, FWIW, the "Don't put me on L - 1" thing was just a safety net. Just don't lynch me before I've claimed.
Sort of denies being hated. Further evidence he knows exactly what he is going to claim. I really think he has to be beloved.
I also agree with Robz that it seems a bit strange that you wouldn't remember what the wording was. For me, at least, I saw "Station-Aligned", and it took me a moment to realise that couldn't mean anything other than the equivalent to Town. I even checked the OP to see if it was there, and there were enough "station"s to make it obvious that Station meant Town. If the PM said "You're Town (which btw we're calling Station-Aligned)" then you could just see the Town and move on, but because Town wasn't mentioned, you had to see Station-Aligned and interpret that as Town, which I feel makes it harder to forget at least the Station part.
Two ways to read this. Town sympathizing with eevee, or scum trying very hard to get towncred by making up a whole story.
Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
Pro-town. If he is scum-beloved then I think Jimmmmm WANTS to claim, because it make him less likely to be lynched. Does it make him more likely to be NKed?
but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
The beginning of the whole contradiction case thing. It's a nice catch, while incorrect. Not sure if it's scummy or not.
His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me.
If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.
The interesting thing here is that he is responding to GLOOBLE, who, if Jimmmmm is scum, is his teammate. He actually has a lot of interactions with glooble and munch D1, which Yuma highlighted earlier. They seem to be casting quite a bit of suspicion on each other for D1. D1 there was 15 people, it was chaotic. Bussing seems like a bad idea, because nobody is going to notice anything when there are 15 people.
You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
If jimmmmm is scum he NKed galz N1. does this post fit?
I just thought of something. What if eevee vigged galzria?? he had a scumread on him the whole way. I think it's possible.
Re-read Glooble as promised. There's really not much there. Does anyone have any thoughts other than LALL and "This could be scum Glooble (but it could also be Town Glooble)"? The one thing that stood out to me was this:
I'm endeavoring not to post completely contentlessly. If I have an observation I think is helpful to the town. If I don't, then I'm just making noise. In other words, if possible I'd like to actually help fond scum, but barring that ill settle for not making a lot of distracting noise.
I think if he's Town, then this is going about things the wrong way. Instead of "I don't have many good thoughts, so I'll help Town by staying quiet," it should be "I'm going to come up with as many good, helpful thoughts as I can and post those."
On the other hand, if he's scum, this seems like it could be a way to excuse his lurking.
For now, I'm happy to Vote: Glooble to try to get some helpful thoughts out of him.
Again, seems a bit harsh for D1, when there as actually a fair chance of us lynching glooble.
Holy crap. Cuzz is offline. He was in this thread, and now he's gone.
Announcing intent to hammer in ~10 mins if Cuzz hasn't posted by then.
10 minutes later cuzz hadn't posted and Jimmmmm never hammered. Mcmc did something similar and he was scum.
One more note: everyone in this game has exactly one role, except for Jimmmmm. He claimed last, so he knew this. If he is scum, there is no way he has two roles. This is because he would be maquis. Maquis would have three members, as opposed to only two on the MU. Joth would not give someone on the team with more members an additional role to balance the game. Therefore he has only one role, and it seems more than likely that this role is beloved. If he is beloved he isn't a roleblocker, and so Yuma must be scum. They can't both be scum, therefore Jimmm is town.
There are a lot of assumptions in the above note, but it seems strong. Many of the posts I quoted read towny to me too. So I have a townread on Jimmmmm.
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That last thing is actually really strong. only way Jimmmmm is scum is if joth thought the three-man team was STILL underpowered or if he somehow isn't beloved.
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I don't think it would be so strange for him to make up being beloved. I don't much stalk in breadcrumbing but maybe that's just me
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I don't think it would be so strange for him to make up being beloved. I don't much stalk in breadcrumbing but maybe that's just me
agreed. Anytime I have been scum I have prepared from Night0 a fake claim--if I was in a game where it was necessary, which has been most of them--and have often set up those fakeclaims with minor breadcrumbs. Although this wasn't a minor breadcrumb... it was a pretty blatant one.
And Beloved Princess is a pretty great fake claim to make as scum. It basically ensures that the BP is pretty unlikely to be lynched, but... scum is also unlikely to want to NK the BP because if the BP does happen to be lynched a day is skipped...
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And I guess there always is the possibility that Jimmm actually is Hated... which is a much more scummy role than say BP. I was hated once in a game (as town) and was partially lynched for it because everyone considered it to be a "scummy role." Joth and Robz were both in that game, the first Ozle game.
And if so, joth adding a JK onto it would make more sense as Marquis with a hated player could use a power-up comparatively to the other scum team and town.
Again though, this is just speculation.
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And I guess there always is the possibility that Jimmm actually is Hated... which is a much more scummy role than say BP.
I'm happy for you and Robz to test that.
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It can't hurt.
Vote: Jimm
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If he is scum-beloved then I think Jimmmmm WANTS to claim, because it make him less likely to be lynched. Does it make him more likely to be NKed?
I had a while to think about it before the game. I came to the conclusion that claiming would make me a likely target for any Town Vigs we had, and an unlikely target for scum. So I did my best to truthfully make myself more of a target for scum. Obviously it didn't work, but you can see that the intent was there.
This was interesting:
Jimmmmm makes some very compelling points against eevee. A direct contradiction is always worth pursuing. However, I'm not getting a town vibe from jimmmmm at all. His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me. If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt. Since I'm highly suspicious of jmmmmm, I'm less inclined to trust his arguments re: eevee.
Oh yeah they sent me home early from work. I'm on the bus now posting from my phone.
Here's a message I sent to joth after I read that:
Again, just so I have someone to tell:
@Glooble: "If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt."
That's exactly what I was trying to do, and probably the main reason I didn't just fullclaim.
Please let me know if I'm annoying you with my messages.
And Beloved Princess is a pretty great fake claim to make as scum. It basically ensures that the BP is pretty unlikely to be lynched, but... scum is also unlikely to want to NK the BP because if the BP does happen to be lynched a day is skipped...
I completely understand this, and have from the start. I didn't WANT to die, but I thought it would be good if I drew a scum kill before I had to claim. Any Townie with the slightest scum read on me was going to be disturbed by a BP claim, since yeah it makes me pretty close to unlynchable in earlier days, and therefore takes that power away from Town.
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As I do not have access to Joth's PM box, I cannot confirm nor deny the validity of the "PM" posted by Jimmm. However, it is generally accepted that posting PM's with timestamps attached is against the rules. I am not privy to the setup, so I cannot comment on the nature of the "PM" itself.
However, real or fabricated, in the future please do not provide quotes to or from the mod with timestamps attached.
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What Galz said. But obviously I confirm or deny NOTHING! I think quoting a PM too the mod is a grayer area than from, but I'd be just as happy we don't have any more of that. If you want to quote such a thing, remove the time stamp. No quoting mod-supplied info at all (real or fabricated).
Admiral Ross's official report to Starfleet is to consider Deep Space Nine lost and compromised. Starfleet sends the Enterprise to investigate, rescue any surviving Starfleet personnel, and destroy the wormhole. They're on their way.
Vote Count 6.1
Jimmmmm (1): Robz888
Not Voting (3): yuma, liopoil, Jimmmmm
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
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Oh. I never knew that. I thought it was okay because it would be easy to come up with if I was scum and a bit creative. Sorry!
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Okay, here's why I can't be scum:
Assume that there is exactly one scum left (the alternative is just terrifying), and that is me.
Obviously that makes me Maquis.
Now we know that scum can both kill and take another night action in the same night, since Robz is Town and therefore telling the truth that mcmc took no night action Night 1, and therefore Galz both Rolecopped and killed, since there is no other MU.
Now go back to Night 4. Living Townies are ash, yuma, theorel, Robz and liopoil, with mcmc MU and me Maquis. yuma has declared that he will LR, and was telling the truth since he is Town. Obviously I Roleblocked/Jailkept him, but for some reason I neglected/failed to kill ash. Now I can't have decided not to. That would make me the stupidest player to have ever graced these forums. theorel has already declared me innocent from his point of view, and you can almost guarantee that ash will investigate either liopoil or me, to either catch scum or create an IC. Both are terrible options for me - if he investigates me I now have no chance of winning, and if he investigates lio then what looks like an easy mislynch becomes impossible. So I really really want ash to either die or be unable to investigate. But for some reason I both RB/JK yuma and so allow ash to investigate AND I leave him alive. If you think I'm that stupid, then quite frankly I'm offended that you think I lack the mental capacity to make bleedingly obvious decisions in this game. The only other possibility is that ash was Doctored. Tell me, by whom?
So it should be abundantly clear that I can't be the only scum. Maybe if there was another MU alive as well you could argue that it's impossible for scum to kill and action in the same night, and maybe I decided to RB/JK yuma in lieu of killing ash. But it's still an utterly stupid thing to do, given how likely it was that ash would investigate me (seems to be 50%).
So unless I'm missing something major, I'm basically an IC. So unless someone can come up with some way that I wouldn't 100% know that killing ash Night 4 would be the best course of action for scum me by a country mile, or was somehow prevented from doing it, there is no way a Townie should want to lynch me. Unless liopoil is a Godfather (which I'm not actually entertaining), one of Robz and yuma IS scum, and given they didn't kill ash Night 4, it's actually looking like they might be MU, despite the balance issues.
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Jimmmm... the problem with that argument, well it isn't really a problem because I agree with it, is that it also applies to Robz and me if either of us are scum and marquis. Why would either of us leave ash alive night4 if we are scum? It is basically the same argument for you that is is for me and the same argument for Robz.
I think I am at the point where the only place to go is to vote for Robz. I was on him, turned myself around with arguments, but am now back where I started.... He is the only option if MU and still has a decent chance of being Marquis. I think I am just resigned to not fully understanding what happened at night because we don't have enough information to put it together. Again, this is why I don't like mass claims unless absolutely necessary. It gave scum enough information to take advantage of night kills and leave town in the dark.
vote: Robz I think I would be hard pressed to change my vote at this point.
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Vote: Jimmmmm
Unvote
to test Jimmmmm being hated, like Jimmmmm suggested. If he's hated he's scum, so there's no risk in this. If I have to leave the vote on Jimmmmm for a whole post then I would like Yuma to do it. If I do it Yuma could potentially quickhammer.
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What's a godfather?
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Okay, here's why I can't be scum:
Assume that there is exactly one scum left (the alternative is just terrifying), and that is me.
Obviously that makes me Maquis.
Now we know that scum can both kill and take another night action in the same night, since Robz is Town and therefore telling the truth that mcmc took no night action Night 1, and therefore Galz both Rolecopped and killed, since there is no other MU.
Now go back to Night 4. Living Townies are ash, yuma, theorel, Robz and liopoil, with mcmc MU and me Maquis. yuma has declared that he will LR, and was telling the truth since he is Town. Obviously I Roleblocked/Jailkept him, but for some reason I neglected/failed to kill ash. Now I can't have decided not to. That would make me the stupidest player to have ever graced these forums. theorel has already declared me innocent from his point of view, and you can almost guarantee that ash will investigate either liopoil or me, to either catch scum or create an IC. Both are terrible options for me - if he investigates me I now have no chance of winning, and if he investigates lio then what looks like an easy mislynch becomes impossible. So I really really want ash to either die or be unable to investigate. But for some reason I both RB/JK yuma and so allow ash to investigate AND I leave him alive. If you think I'm that stupid, then quite frankly I'm offended that you think I lack the mental capacity to make bleedingly obvious decisions in this game. The only other possibility is that ash was Doctored. Tell me, by whom?
So it should be abundantly clear that I can't be the only scum. Maybe if there was another MU alive as well you could argue that it's impossible for scum to kill and action in the same night, and maybe I decided to RB/JK yuma in lieu of killing ash. But it's still an utterly stupid thing to do, given how likely it was that ash would investigate me (seems to be 50%).
So unless I'm missing something major, I'm basically an IC. So unless someone can come up with some way that I wouldn't 100% know that killing ash Night 4 would be the best course of action for scum me by a country mile, or was somehow prevented from doing it, there is no way a Townie should want to lynch me. Unless liopoil is a Godfather (which I'm not actually entertaining), one of Robz and yuma IS scum, and given they didn't kill ash Night 4, it's actually looking like they might be MU, despite the balance issues.
I don't think we know for sure that scum can kill and use their power. Also, we knew pretty much that ash was investigating me, so you wouldn't be at risk, but at least you could make it go from me being cleared, to being under even more suspicion than I already was because ash died.
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that's still a very good point. that combined with you would have had to have planned the BP thing from the beginning AND made up the doctor thing for whatever reason, and your interactions with glooble, munch, and galz don't quite fit, makes me not wanting to lynch Jimmmmm, especially because there are very good cases on both Yuma and robz. This is why I was inclined to assume jimmmmm is town.
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I don't think we should worry about there still being two scum left. Not only is it incredibly imbalanced against town with six scum, but it would mean that there are still two teams. I'm a bit incredulous that there was only one kill nights 4 and 5 in this case. Also, if there are two scum then lynching scum makes us LOSE. So let's assume there is only one scum.
we can also assume that all liars are scum. We have been assuming this with the Yuma LR thing, and I think this is correct. In this case I see no reason for town to lie. We actually know someone I lying and that person is scum, because either Yuma is scum (and lied about LR-ing), or someone fakeclaimed.
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If there are two scum left, the town already lost, so we can ignore that possibility.
Actually that's not true. If there are two scum left, we should No Lynch, and hope they shoot each other.
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no, we should either lynch Jimmmmm or me if there are two scum. We would want the scum to know who each other are.
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actually, we should lynch jimmmmm for sure if there are two scum. but there aren't!
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Okay, re-read on Jimmmmm done. Even though it seems like he's town, I'm still going to go through the rest of the interesting posts.
I get the case on Glooble, and I think it has merit, especially considering we've been lynching more vocal players, and they end up being Town. Glooble has played a fairly "safe" game, although has started contributing more reads. I guess I would put Glooble down as slightly scummy for now, and keep my eye on him.
this one actually fits with him being maquis.
I re-read Glooble, and as much as I wanted him to be scummy so that I could feel good about supporting the lynch of someone who's not me, I just didn't. His lurking seems like genuine busyness (although I could be more sympathetic than most to that given how little time I've seemed to have to play Mafia lately), and when he has been posting, he just read like a Townie who wants to contribute but is a little lost at times from being a bit behind. And unless there's something I missed, I haven't found any of the arguments on him terribly convincing either. So while I'd obviously prefer his lynch than mine, he doesn't look like a great candidate to me.
But we obviously need to decide on someone before deadline, preferably before a soft deadline. So I don't know. I think I should take a closer look at yuma and Munch.
This one fits too. although, he mentions munch at the end...
Okay, I re-read lio for an alternative to Glooble. While he hasn't said anything in particular to make me think he's scum, he seems to have played a very safe game, not putting himself out there terribly much. Seeing as though the loud talkers all seem to be flipping Town, it seems likely that there is scum in this game who is trying not to be controversial. So while there's no one in particular who I think has a very high chance of being scum, I will Vote: liopoil since I think he has more chance of flipping scum than Glooble.
Of course, I'd rather lynch Glooble than no one, so if they're our only choices I'd be willing to hammer.
and this one. Interesting. I mean, I'm town but my interactions fit with glooble/munch too.
I think I see the lio/Glooble argument. When I have time I'll have to go back and have another look. However I'm not sure I like the assumption that one of me and lio must be scum. From my point of view, that's pretty close to betting the game on lio being scum.
I think no one else should claim until theo gets back to lead it.
Sorry for the delay, just got home from work. I logged on a couple of times to see what was happening, but didn't get time to post.
I am a Beloved Princess.
checks PM
I am Vadek Bareil Antos, so I guess that makes me a Beloved Alien Man-Princess. That means that if I am mislynched, the Bajorans on the Station, whoever they are, will spend the next day mourning for me, which will shut down the Station and skip a Day. For some reason those bastards don't care if I'm killed during the night.
I realise this could be seen as an aggressive scum claim - "I dare you to lynch me!" - and for most of the time between getting my PM and starting day 1 I was planning to claim almost immediately so it didn't appear to be a desperate attempt to save myself. But I realised that would make me a target for Vigs and not a target for scum, so I said what I said to try to reverse that and maybe draw a scum kill. I guess they're too smart for me though, because here I am.
PPE: ^I went to post this at about 4pm but then discovered my internet was no longer working, then a friend came over to play Dominion, then I went out and I'm finally home and it's past midnight. So again, sorry for the delay.
Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
If Jimmmmm had any shots left I think he wouldn't have just added it on as an afterthought. When Jimmmmm softclaimed it D1 for all he knew there might be a real BP (if he was going to fakeclaim). For some reason I'm just feel like his claim is legit. If he is BP then he is town.
He has a bunch of analysis of a glooble-munch-liopoil team. He doesn't actually really support it, which would make sense as maquis because he knew I would flip town. Nothing he says really points me in either direction in terms of him being partners with them though.
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Jimmmm... the problem with that argument, well it isn't really a problem because I agree with it, is that it also applies to Robz and me if either of us are scum and marquis. Why would either of us leave ash alive night4 if we are scum?
I agree that seems strange, which is why I'm now leaning towards one of you being MU. But I think it's obvious that ash had a much greater chance of investigating me than either of you since worst case he gets an IC. If I'm Maquis then I did the very very worst thing for my team, and there's no way I'd be dumb enough to do it. If you or Robz are Maquis then I have no idea what happened, but it wouldn't have been quite so potentially suicidal.
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What's a godfather?
Scum who gives the same results to Cops that Townies do. I just don't see it as being part of this setup.
I don't think we know for sure that scum can kill and use their power. Also, we knew pretty much that ash was investigating me, so you wouldn't be at risk, but at least you could make it go from me being cleared, to being under even more suspicion than I already was because ash died.
If the entire MU team is Galz and mcmc and Robz telling the truth about mcmc, then we know for sure that Galz both Rolecopped and killed on Night 1.
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I actually think the last scum is MU. Yuma and Robz888 don't really fit maquis, and then there's the tracking result on mcmc. Either robz is MU or telling the truth I think. I don't see why he would make that up as maquis. robz was rather certain that if the team was just mcmc-galz that mcmc would have done the kill, or that galz couldn't to the kill and rolecop. I somewhat agree with this. I think Yuma isn't maquis for a few reasons. Cearly there's the glooble thing, but also something that nobody has mentioned. Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead. I think that if he was maquis he would know how it was spelled. this seems rather silly, but I think it is actually a valid point.
anyway, I still need to re-read Yuma and robz.
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but there's a good chance that there is a third MU and there is a good chance that robz isn't telling the truth.
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Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead.
I noticed that, and had no idea what to make of it.
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I thought it could be deliberate, to make us think he wasn't maquis.
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I actually think the last scum is MU. Yuma and Robz888 don't really fit maquis, and then there's the tracking result on mcmc. Either robz is MU or telling the truth I think. I don't see why he would make that up as maquis. robz was rather certain that if the team was just mcmc-galz that mcmc would have done the kill, or that galz couldn't to the kill and rolecop. I somewhat agree with this. I think Yuma isn't maquis for a few reasons. Cearly there's the glooble thing, but also something that nobody has mentioned. Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead. I think that if he was maquis he would know how it was spelled. this seems rather silly, but I think it is actually a valid point.
anyway, I still need to re-read Yuma and robz.
I still don't see how you guys could possibly think the teams are Rolecop, Bomb, and X vs. Neighbor and 1-shot Roleblocker. Of all the weird things we can't explain, this seems like the most implausible to me.
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And also, a third MU should shoot liopoil or Jimm, not ashersky, last night. Because ashersky could be MU, whereas Jimm and liopoil cannot be.
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And also, a third MU should shoot liopoil or Jimm, not ashersky, last night. Because ashersky could be MU, whereas Jimm and liopoil cannot be.
That seems true as well. I think MU yuma was more likely to shoot ash than MU Robz. Unless you thought you could WIFOM us.
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And also, a third MU should shoot liopoil or Jimm, not ashersky, last night. Because ashersky could be MU, whereas Jimm and liopoil cannot be.
That seems true as well. I think MU yuma was more likely to shoot ash than MU Robz. Unless you thought you could WIFOM us.
True.
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shooting ash to make us think there must be maquis really makes sense, and robz saying that an MU wouldn't shoot ash over and over again makes me think he shot ash.
maybe the X is a negative utility?
Glooble was lynched D3. we should consider the possibility that he blocked someone N1 or N2.
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Let me just throw this out there... is there a good reason NOT to No Lynch?
Because, if we do, well, scum probably kills liopoil. But what if scum doesn't? What if scum shoots me, or jimm, or yuma, thereby eliminating a suspect?
The reason I suggest this is because no matter which way you slice it, scum has done things that make no sense to us. So maybe they will end up not shooting liopoil out of some convoluted logic we don't understand. Won't this make things easier for us, then, in choosing scum?
I can see liopoil not liking this plan, but whatever, we can promise to weigh his opinion tomorrow. We can promise even to lynch the person he instructs us to lynch.
Can someone propose a reason why this would be bad for us?
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He might have blocked the MU kill N2, but then why does the flavor suggest doublekill... what if he blocked robz N1?
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shooting ash to make us think there must be maquis really makes sense, and robz saying that an MU wouldn't shoot ash over and over again makes me think he shot ash.
maybe the X is a negative utility?
Glooble was lynched D3. we should consider the possibility that he blocked someone N1 or N2.
If the X is something other than roleblocker/jailkeeper, I'm not scum.
Look, I get what you're saying about me saying it makes no sense for me to shoot ash. But, like, look at the two courses of action availavble to me if I'm scum:
Keep ash alive, easily win because he trusts me explicitly. OR
Kill ash, explain incessantly to people who don't trust me that I wouldn't have killed ash if I were scum
Which is the plan I was likely to follow?
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scum has done some confusing things. but I don't see why they might not kill me. robz wants me dead because right now I am leaning towards lynching him. He does have a point that no lynching doesn't hurt too much, but why bother? the three town left in the game are VTs. the scum could still have a power left. night is probably bad for us.
Yuma says he always prepares a fakeclaim as scum. well, LR is not a good fakeclaim for scum.
the balance is confusing on the teams. but, role independent of alignment.
robz, remember when you were sure I was scum? Part of your reasoning was that, "if there is a maquis it is liopoil". This actually makes sense, and is likely true. Since I am not scum then if that statement is true it must be an MU left.
If you don't kill ash, do you really win? I'd say you probably kill me instead, because I have had a scumread on you. ash clears Jimmmmm. Jimmmmm has been defending Yuma, and ash has been defending you. ash not dying suggest there is only a MU left. Once they assume there is a MU, it really looks like you, for killing me, and for the tracker result. Jimmmmm and Yuma vote for robz, and even if ashersky is stubborn then you just nolynch. You probably kill jimmmmm that night. I feel there is a fair chance of ashersky changing his mind about you in this situation. His read on you was based on vibes and meta. Once he sees the strong evidence he might decide to turn on you.
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Well, liopoil, let me put it to you this way.
Try as I might, everytime I convince myself that yuma is scum, I change my mind. I find some acquitting evidence.
Every time I convince myself the Jimm is scum, something gets brought up, and I end up doubting it.
I know I am not scum.
The only thing that changed my 99% certainty that you were a maquis was ash's investigation.
But let's say you're godfather. That seems unbalanced to me, but whatever--you guys have been perfectly willing to consider unbalanced scum scenariors anyway. What happens tonight? You'll have to shoot no one, or shoot someone else. And that would tell us a great deal.
So it seems to me we have nothing to lose. And we have new information, possibly, to gain. Your death would explicitly rule out that scenario.
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hmmmmm. is there a potential scum role that could get a benefit out of having another night?
what if scum decides to kill jimmmmm? because I'm not going to agree to lynch him, and I don't think Yuma is either, so scum could kill him. Would you all suddenly decide I am a godfather?
I would be willing to no lynch depending on what happens today. We should decide who we want to lynch, agree to terms about no lynching, then no lynch.
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hmmmmm. is there a potential scum role that could get a benefit out of having another night?
what if scum decides to kill jimmmmm? because I'm not going to agree to lynch him, and I don't think Yuma is either, so scum could kill him. Would you all suddenly decide I am a godfather?
I would be willing to no lynch depending on what happens today. We should decide who we want to lynch, agree to terms about no lynching, then no lynch.
We should probably refrain from saying what we would think in the event of X person dying in the night, so scum can't game it. But no matter who dies, it would vastly improve my thinking process about who the last scum is.
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not if I die. It really depends on who Jimmmmm and I decide who we think is scum. No use discussing it now. We should play out the day, and when we get to the point where we have decided who to lynch, we will consider no lynch.
You don't really need to think about that all too much. If you are town you have to hope Yuma is scum, because Yuma is voting for you and doesn't plan on changing that.
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not if I die. It really depends on who Jimmmmm and I decide who we think is scum. No use discussing it now. We should play out the day, and when we get to the point where we have decided who to lynch, we will consider no lynch.
You don't really need to think about that all too much. If you are town you have to hope Yuma is scum, because Yuma is voting for you and doesn't plan on changing that.
Well, I'm not really settling for that. I haven't made up my mind on whether yuma is scum. And I resent being told otherwise, frankly.
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look, even if you were certain that Jimmmmm was scum that won't help you, because you can't get him lynched. If you're town it's almost impossible for you to win if Yuma is also town. If Jimmmmm is scum I think he wins.
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look, even if you were certain that Jimmmmm was scum that won't help you, because you can't get him lynched. If you're town it's almost impossible for you to win if Yuma is also town. If Jimmmmm is scum I think he wins.
If Jimm is scum there's a trail leading right to him, we just haven't perceived it yet. I am unwilling to write off the possibility. I do think town is likely going to lose, because you seem to be settling on me. And it will be terrible to lose this game after a pretty good run of things, so yes I'm weighing my options carefully and genuinely trying to find the last scum, not just sitting here waiting for you to pick me and lose.
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you have lots of incriminating evidence and acquitting evidence, so does Yuma. I am by no means decided. It is possible that Jimmmmm is scum, it just is almost certainly less likely that Robz and Yuma being scum. The case on him is just way way weaker. this is why I'm not going to lynch him unless something new and big comes to light.
reread robz time. we haven't looked at people's interactions with galz/mcmc, that should be interesting.
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over 400 posts. whew. this might take a while.
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well, here goes. this is Robz's most noteworthy posts in chronological order.
D1
DOUBLE smileys? Vote: Galzria.
his first post he votes scum. Doesn't mean anything most likely. I hear robz doesn't normally RVS though...
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
Suspicious of eevee early, like jimmmmm, but for a different reason.
15 players should be 4 scum, right? 2 + 2 or 3 +1. 2 + 3 would be yuck, but I guess it's possible, depending on roles.
Galz, yes I find Eevee scummy for like three reasons I gave. The Dsell thing, and aspects of his response, including something he said that I do judge to be false, that theorel also picked up on: him not knowing his role PM and the setup or whatever. It doesn't fit Eevee; I'm pretty sure he's lying about this to inflate his case for why he didn't say station. He could be lying to inflate his case for why he didn't say station from a position of town or scum, but obviously it seems a bit scummy to me.
I didn't really get his case on you, although I think you're being fairly dense here.
2+3 is yuck. So if robz is scum he probably thought there was a SK. More galz-robz interactions. says he doesn't get the eevee case on galz.
From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched.
I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.
It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.
thinks Jimmmmm is hated, which is wrong. I thought it too based on this. He probably genuinely thought this though, and might be a reason that a scum!robz wouldn't kill Jimmmmm. otherwise scum might kill Jimmmmm because they thought he had a PR.
@Mcmc: There's no need to panic over like one vote. We vote and unvote like crazy. Sometimes multiple people get bajillions of votes. It's fine for Eevee to get a bunch of votes. If people vote for him and end this day too soon, we will accuse them of being scum and kill those people tomorrow.
Disclaimer for anyone who doesn't know: Mcmc is my IRL brother.
@Post count: My vote for Galzria was fake. I was surprised he hadn't responded to my accusation that he was being dense, but maybe he isn't around, and anyway I don't yet find him scummier than anyone else.
Vote: Eevee, my top scumread for now.
more interactions with mcmc and galzria. not sure what he means about "fake" vote on galzria. Says he doesn't have more of a scumread on him than anyone else, which sounds like disasociation. dunno what to make of what he said to mcmc.
Just checked the roster... invisyuma strikes again, as the saying goes.
I don't expect to hear from Glooble until like Day 4, probably.
Has sparky posted?
calls out two maquis for lurking. If MU it makes sense because his partners and him aren't lurking, so LALL works for him. doesn't make sense as maquis.
Time to pass out.
But maybe one drink more?
Oooh, choices....
Wait, wait... are you scum??
They actually talk to each other a LOT d1. I haven't included most of the times here.
Here is my case against Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I believe the bolded part is a lie, or at least an extreme exaggeration.
Although I must say, so many people are expressing opposition to the Eevee case and that can't all be scum, I am sort of ready to stop talking about it and look critically and someone else. I don't think it's rock-solid by any means. The "contradiction" thing is not much, no.
Doesn't want to talk about eevee anymore, like Jimmmmm. I guess they realized the lynch wasn't going to happen. could be interpreted as scummy.
Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
I think that's fair to say of Cuzz, and maybe worth a vote. But there are three people who have barely talked at all. And things are happening!
Agrees with galzria. It seems like more than half of his posts have some relation to galz...
I'm using a somewhat new approach to this game, which I am calling the Straightforward Strategy, or SFS (see what I did there?). My approach to this game, rather than going so strongly off of metas, is to look at two things: 1) Real evidence, and 2) What people are saying.
1) Real evidence -- Something like, Dsell's station-aligned thing with Eevee. I actually think Dsell gets more than a pinch of town cred here. I agree with Jimm that other than that, Dsell would actually seem pretty scummy for underposting, but this evidence is really, really acquitting, I think.
2) What people are saying -- if someone says something that is logical, that makes sense, that I think hits upon valid points and is relevant, I am going to think of that person as less scummy. This is a little bit of a change of pace for me. Usually, when someone says something anti-rational, irrelevant, and over the top, I think of them as less scummy, because scum need to be more careful. But this approach has not worked lately.
--talks about other stuff--
Galzria is registering a lot less than usual in this game, to me, and I do find that weird. And it irks me that his main goal so far seems to be to kill the wagon on Eevee, which I thought was certainly a valid wagon on the scummiest person. Perhaps Eevee would have been/will be a mislynch, but it reeks of scum trying to build towncred by killing wagon on townie. Of course I guess with the multiple scumteams thing, there's like an extra wrinkle in there. Still, since I think the Eevee case was solid-ish, I don't love that Galz worked to kill it.
I'm going to Vote: Cuzz, though, because he's now the person to whom I can't attribute anything. It's really hard to beat Glooble in that regard, and Cuzz is doing it. So.
the first bit about a new playstyle rings towny. second part sounds like he's trying to disassociate himself from galz after all that interaction before. he then proceeds to vote cuzz, which is sheeping galzria. Galz started that wagon.
If robz were maquis, would he want to kill galz N1?
Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player(said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
No no no. This is not the same thing. I waited for Eevee to respond--and warned others to do the same--because I didn't want anybody explaining what they thought Eevee meant. BEcause then Eevee could just copy that. After Eevee gave his statement, I enthusiastically gave my view of it, and asked others to do the same. So I think you're mixed up here in reading this as an anti-town thing to do.
I can't tell what mcmc think of robz in that post. is he saying robz is just playing town badly? Robz corrects him. I think mcmc's post, in light of him flipping scum, makes robz look bad.
Robz888: Also on the Eevee wagon. I think he's being a bit over-accusatory. Has been on the lurker's case a bit too much, as have others. At this point the lurkers have had good excuses. Talked about the setup a bunch too. Stuff with the number of mafia is interesting. I'm not as sure about 4 as he is. what about 4 with SK? or even 3-2? He would know more about this if he was scum. Alo would be more likely to talk about it.
oh hey, I had a scumread on robz888 way back then! I think I was the only one. I now disagree with most of the points I made there, except the one about talking about the setup.
Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
very interested in the scum-read on galz. He didn't miss it though, he mentioned it earlier. This is actually quite scummy.
Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
Well, like 5% higher scumscore than average. Certainly not seeming towny to me.
For me, my suspicion on Galz comes from two thing: 1) He's under-posting, 2) He threw water on the case I made against you.
But he's under-posting everywhere, and I think is just behind. On the other thing, I probably have to just shed my bias in favor of the case, perhaps, much as his reaction to it grated me.
So I guess I don't have much of a scumread on him, either. And I did follow him in voting Cuzz, actually.
again sort of says he's suspicious and then takes it back. mentioning the cuzz thing is towny though.
Oh, also Jimm now looks like he's trying to divert to Mcmc, who is not registering scum to me at all this game. He's my brother, and he did fool me in his first game, Blitz... but he is way more active here than he was there, and I know he has MORE IRL commitments right now, not less. I think that definitely gives him towncred. Also, the things he's said, they aren't like the most comprehensive opinions ever, but they do have meat. So again, points against Jimm.
townread on MU
Right now here's an update on where I'm at:
Town: Robz, Dsell
Strongly leaning town: Theorel
Slight leaning town: Mcmc, ashersky, TheMunch
Neutral: liopoil, yuma, shraeye
Slightly leaning scum: Cuzz, Galzria, Glooble, raerae
Strongly leaning scum: Jimm, Eevee
Puts galz at leaning scum. Every time Robz has made a point against galz he immediately negates it with a counterpoint. By doing this he can have a slight scumread on him to disassociate himself, but still not get him lynched. sounds like good scum strategy. mcmc is at slight town. interestingly the maquis are also split just on the two sides of neutral.
this post is getting really long so I'm going to cut it here for now. Anyway I think his interactions with mcmc/galz fit with him being MU, but not his interactions with glooble/munch for him being maquis. That's just so far though. The rest of the things he's said to other people really only read slightly scummy to me. this is just part of D1 though, so I wouldn't expect much else.
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D1 continued:
Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
Robz makes a post count which puts him is a good light. Interestingly it does the same for his top two scum reads. I think this highlights that he was trying to get the top two non-robz contributers lynched, which is scummy.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others.
...but then there was this.
I actually think each person needs to be evaluated critically in this regard, and not on a flat scale.
I don't know much about liopoil, so I don't know what "normal" is for him. But for Theorel, that is pretty spot on. Very few posts, tons of content in each.
For the Glooble's and Yuma's, they are actually just higher than I normally look, so I wouldn't consider them "lurking" to their own standard.
And this is the point I made about myself earlier. I HAVE been underposting. Yesterday because I was RL gaming, today because I've been swamped catching up here. My overall numbers might still be above average - but I'll be the first to admit that against my own standards of posting, yes, I am in fact "lurking".
Looking at that list, in all honesty, I think everybody is contributing at or above their normal levels. I see no real lurkers (besides myself) listed.
Towniest. Post. Ever.
I do also agree with this. The flow of this game has been pretty much spot on.
Is either agreeing with galz, or agreeing that the post was the towniest ever.
I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
No, don't. No reason to.
Doesn't want eevee to claim. Pro-town. He has started to be more towny, apart from interactions w/galzria. If I didn't know about anything about what happened after D1 I would probably have a null read on robz, maybe even town read.
Robz, I've laid out on multiple occasions detailed analysis of exactly the points that I believe indicate Eevee is town. Yet you continue to persecute him. You've known and played with Eevee as long as I have. What do you think makes my read wrong, and yours right?
I'm not persecuting him. Believe me, I would much rather have him be town. But I can't ignore the fact that I don't believe he actually doesn't know the contents of his role PM, that the Dsell incident makes him slightly more likely to be scum, that his immediate behavior did not scream town as it usually does, and that very recently he made an abrupt shift to his typical town persona after giving an extremely accurate description of exactly what that persona is.
I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him. It's weird, and none of the three of them come out looking good. I'd pretty sure some scum, somewhere, is trying to kill the Eevee lynch, possibly to gain his favor.
this also reads town, and doesn't really match with galz being robz's partner as much.
I have to leave now, and will get back to this again.
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Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead.
I noticed that, and had no idea what to make of it.
That is embarrassing... I thought it was "marquis" as in French for nobility. I really know nothing about star trek. What does maquis mean? It must mean something because Google Chrome doesn't even want to auto-correct it... Oh it is also French for "a member of a movement, specifically the one against Germany in WWII.
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Well, blah. I just have no idea whether that's sincere or not. Yuma is a smart guy. Could he have planned this all game? Sure. Did he? I really have no idea.
I know there's scum amongst one of the three of you, but there are good reasons not to suspect two of you, and the third is cleared by a cop.
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Let me just throw this out there... is there a good reason NOT to No Lynch?
Because, if we do, well, scum probably kills liopoil. But what if scum doesn't? What if scum shoots me, or jimm, or yuma, thereby eliminating a suspect?
The reason I suggest this is because no matter which way you slice it, scum has done things that make no sense to us. So maybe they will end up not shooting liopoil out of some convoluted logic we don't understand. Won't this make things easier for us, then, in choosing scum?
I can see liopoil not liking this plan, but whatever, we can promise to weigh his opinion tomorrow. We can promise even to lynch the person he instructs us to lynch.
Can someone propose a reason why this would be bad for us?
I guess I am not super opposed to nolynching today. I think ehunt (our resident theory master) would generally argue in favor of it (I think). But lio being an IC does throw a wrench into everything... which is why I haven't really suggested it.
But I guess my question is what is to be gained? You mention that we might be able to gleam something from the action that scum would do during the night? I suppose it might make it easier, but it might also make it harder as well. I think the coin flips both ways.
I can't remember what blitz game it was where that happened... I think one with SFS right? If I remember he killed off someone that wasn't IC instead of Dsell. And I think that was also the game scum won due to a rules violation, so maybe the results aren't clear from that. Robz do you remember that game? Do you think it has implications for us here?
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Yuma: I remember that game, but I don't think it involved a No Lynch at LYLO. Just a rules violation resulting in scum win.
The situation we are currently in happened during Mafia VIII. We had, uh, O/me/Galzria/Insomniac/theorel/Yuma still alive. O and me were scum. You, yuma, were confirmed town because you were a vigilante that shot the IC Eevee during the night (thanks!). We knew there were 2 scum left, so we knew that we could No Lynch, likely lose yuma, and continue on the next day if need be. I came out against No Lynching at first, because I was scum and thought maybe I could suck up to you, yuma, since you were likely the one who was going to die.
Ultimately, Galz didn't hammer me in time, so we No Lynched by default. O and me shot yuma. The next day, I got lynched. Ultimately, scum O won it for us, but I don't remember which townies were at fault.
So, No Lynching didn't hurt the town, since they ended up just following through on the same lynch, me.
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I think it really depends. Regardless, we should decide who we are going to lynch today. talking about no lynch now is pointless. I will likely support it.
I don't think Yuma could fake that. I mean, if I tried something like that I'd probably forget and spell it correctly a few times. It seems unlikely he wouldn't know that if he himself was maquis. besides, it was unlikely that he was maquis anyway, because of the glooble thing.
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The situation we are currently in happened during Mafia VIII. We had, uh, O/me/Galzria/Insomniac/theorel/Yuma still alive. O and me were scum.
That's not the same situation, there's two scum in that case! however, that is the situation we were in yesterday if you are the last MU.
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Yuma: I remember that game, but I don't think it involved a No Lynch at LYLO. Just a rules violation resulting in scum win.
Right I was mostly referring to the fact that during that night scum had a chance to kill of the IC in Dsell but didn't. It was a weird WIFOM choice that threw everyone off guard. What I was wondering is if that choice by SFS to not kill Dsell helped town in scum hunting or if it made it harder. I guess the problem is we can't know because the game ended not by town making the wrong choice, but rather by town violating a rule.
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Well, to state the obvious, it looks like you guys have clearly settled on me. Which is unfortunate, because we're going to lose if you lynch me. I don't really blame you all, because this is a very tough call and there is good info for and against all of us, and it may even be true that form your perspective, my lynch has the most going for it. However, it is the wrong lynch.
Now, I have made up my mind on who I think the scum is. I spent all night thinking about it. I'm far from positive, but oh well. But anyway, I'd really rather not say, if we are going to No Lynch, because I don't want to impact the scum's kill. Does that make sense?
So, I will Vote: No Lynch, anyway. I am happy to continue discussing things of course, but you all seem to be settling on me, and have I mostly stated over and over again why it's not me, and my suspicions on others. I'm not trying to rush things, obviously.
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robz, Yuma is the only one who is decided, and that's because he doesn't have to consider the possibility of himself being scum. I have gone back and forth between you and Yuma many times. We should be discussing the cases on robz and Yuma (and Jimmmmm if that's who robz decided is scum). Whether or not we should no lynch depends on what people's reads are. you all should be re-reading, making cases, and commenting on cases. not much has been said of my analysis of Jimmmmmm and incomplete analysis of Robz.
back to work on my robz analysis.
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Maybe it's just my perception, but I feel like you reject or disagree with everything I say.
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As I've said, I think because of balance issues and ashersky dying, we have to be looking for a maquis. But neither yuma or Jimm are very good fits to be partnered to Glooble and Munch, and liopoil is an IC.
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Well, Jimm fits the profile better than yuma.
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Continued again...
I mean the big thing holding me back on you (and Eevee) is your high post counts.
He said similar things about his top suspects being top contributers. I thought this was towny for pointing this out to everyone, which it is. but then I realized that he could also be emphasizing the importance on contribution because he is also at the top of the post counts.
To me, Mcmc isn't giving off any of the slightly obvious scumtells that he gave off in Blitz9 (at the time, I thought they were too obvious to be scummy--I know, I know, obvious play is obvious, I suck). So I actually see him as playing one sort of game his first time around, as scum, and now to me at least his play looks much different.
I mean, I caught him saying all sorts of things like "I don't want to seem like I'm doing X" in Blitz9, which I said (I did say it in that thread) were scumtells. Of course he could simply be improving as scum, or his partners telling him not to say those things (and I guess I sort of told him not to say those things in Blitz9), but in a vacuum at least his play is believably different.
Additionally, he's answering questions, giving reads, posting, etc. No, I think those things would be hard for him to do--perhaps triggering the sort of cluelessness Jimm is talking about--if he were scum, Galzria's points about M-III notwithstanding.
Defends mcmc. From my perspective I was scum with him in newbie mafia and I think his play here was somewhat similar to his play in newbie mafia, so I don't agree with the meta argument. also robz has said he wouldn't be using meta arguments as much this game.
@Galz, while it seems to me that we've been reading this really differently, too, if your top 4 are Mcmc, Jimm, shraeye, and Cuzz... we aren't so different after all. I'm unpersuaded on Mcmc, in the middle on shraeye, suspicious of Jimm, and if this defensive thing turns out be accurate, also suspicious of Cuzz.
The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
He's responding to a big post by galz. interestingly galz lists mcmc in his would-lynch thing. Anyway, they seem to disagree a fair bit, especially on eevee. Robz being a partner with galz+mcmc doesn't seem so fitting anymore.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
If mcmc is his partner him "glossing" over it makes sense. Sounds like he wants to get on the wagon early. Could also be interpreted as towny. Worth note at least.
Glooble is scummy and not super helpful but his defense was really genuine so I actually do think he's town, strangely enough. So, big townread there for now. Jimm is in the townzone for doing so much hard work, and at this stage of the game, I have to take that as indication of a town player. Galzria is on the scummier side for being like a complete non-factor this day. Mcmcsalot looks worse as the day goes on, but he wouldn't be my top choice. I think I have to trust my initial read on him for now.
Still only slight scumreads on the two MU, which is the safest position for him if he's scum. wrong about glooble. Seems like he flipped sides on Jimmmmm.
And yet...Cuzz is still unlynchable.
No he's not.
Vote: Cuzz
this is essentially the hammer, because ash stated intent to hammer as soon as he was at L-1, for whatever reason. Robz doesn't really explain this, but it was probably just to get a lynch through. Galz is also on-wagon, mcmc is not. munch munch and glooble are too. robz was also on the shraeye quickwagon.
Cuzz (8): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, Robz888, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
shraeye (4): Jimmmmm, Eevee, yuma, Cuzz
Not Voting (2): Dsell, theorel
With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch
Cuzz has been lynched. He was Dr. Julian Bashir, Station-Aligned Changeling Cop.
End of D1.
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raerae has been nightkilled. She was Station-aligned Neighbor Quark.
Galzria has been nightkilled. He was Mirror-Universe-Aligned Rolecop Odo.
So we've always assumed that MU killed raerae and Maquis killed Galzria. I don't think it's safe to do that anymore. Eevee could have shot galzria, which makes sense because he had a scum read on him. We probably should have given eevee a chance to claim D2 :P. If eevee shot galz then Maquis could have shot theorel or raerae. they could also have been jailkept or roleblocked by MU. Scum!yuma could also potentially have a role that kills. Regardless, it seems MU killed raerae. I'm a bit confused by this.
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Well, Jimm fits the profile better than yuma.
If you think I'm scum, you have to come up with a way that ash survived Night 4. I think even objectively that's a ridiculously unlikely scenario.
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Well, Jimm fits the profile better than yuma.
If you think I'm scum, you have to come up with a way that ash survived Night 4. I think even objectively that's a ridiculously unlikely scenario.
No matter who I think it is, I have to reconcile it with a bunch of ridiculous implausibilities.
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Jimmmmm! thoughts on robz/Yuma!?
robz, I think you should tell us who you think is scum and why. You cited not wanting to give scum info when we no lynch, but I think it's more giving them WIFOM. If they NK player X they look bad, but they could say someone is trying to frame them. Or they could lynch player Y to make someone else look bad. Honestly, if we no lynch I'm fairly sure I'm the one that dies regardless.
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Jimmmmm! thoughts on robz/Yuma!?
robz, I think you should tell us who you think is scum and why. You cited not wanting to give scum info when we no lynch, but I think it's more giving them WIFOM. If they NK player X they look bad, but they could say someone is trying to frame them. Or they could lynch player Y to make someone else look bad. Honestly, if we no lynch I'm fairly sure I'm the one that dies regardless.
That would surprise me, because I think you have got to be scum.
It just doesn't make any sense for yuma to be scum, given his record on Munch and Glooble. There's also the fact about the consistent misspelling, which could be a gambit, but is probably more likely not. I guess he could be MU, but I really don't think the last scum is MU, I'm explicitly ruling out the 2 maquis + 3 MU scenario, since I find it the most absurd thing of all.
Jimm's past fits him being scum with Munch and Glooble better, but then his claim was established early, and fits his flavor name, and doesn't make sense as scum.
You, liopoil, fit the scum persona perfectly alongside Munch and Glooble. I was 99% confident you were there partner, until ash cleared you. You must be a godfather. is it a tad ridiculous? Absolutely. Does your scum team seem significantly overpowered? Yes. But of all the things I have to try to reconcile in order to come up with an explanation, it's the least absurd. It's still absurd, but what can I say?
I don't really expect to convince yuma and jimm that we should lynch the IC, though. I've just barely, scarcely convinced myself.
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oh. wow. :P I happy to no lynch then. But first we decide who to lynch. No putting anyone at L-1 because apparently I might be scum. or you could just put someone at L-1 to prove I'm not scum.
Note that whoever you say is the maquis you still have to explain ashersky not dying N4. If we say someone is MU we have to explain ashersky dying N5.
reading through the earlier days in this game I realize I played fairly badly :P I think I did better days 4-6.
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hey wait a minute, if I'm godfather, who blocked Yuma?
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Well, you would have to be a godfather and like a 1-shot Jailkeeper. That's sort of the messy part of the explanation.
The cleaner part of the explanation is it explains ashersky not dying Night 4. You know you'll investigate innocent to him, so it's actually better if you leave him alive to clear you.
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everyone in this game has exactly one role.
I'm still going to kill SOMEONE night 4 right?
don't forget neighbor. I have to be a neighbor right? I mean, I copy and pasted lots of stuff from the QT, and do you really believe munch could give me the link? I can copy and paste lots of stuff I said too if you like. And I don't understand why I would fakeclaim that. I could just claim 1-shot jailkeeper or whatever!
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Robz, I understand your confusion. I too am having trouble believing any of you could be scum. there's just sooooo many contradictions. This latest stuff makes me read you townier. also the stuff I saw in my re-read is a bit acquitting.
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everyone in this game has exactly one role.
I'm still going to kill SOMEONE night 4 right?
don't forget neighbor. I have to be a neighbor right? I mean, I copy and pasted lots of stuff from the QT, and do you really believe munch could give me the link? I can copy and paste lots of stuff I said too if you like. And I don't understand why I would fakeclaim that. I could just claim 1-shot jailkeeper or whatever!
Well, everyone in this game doesn't have exactly one role necessarily. Jimm has claimed Beloved Princess and 1-shot Doc, right? I don't know about your neighbor thing, maybe Munch was allowed to put the stuff from that qt into your scum qt.
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Robz, I understand your confusion. I too am having trouble believing any of you could be scum. there's just sooooo many contradictions. This latest stuff makes me read you townier. also the stuff I saw in my re-read is a bit acquitting.
Well, thanks. This is the problem, no matter who we choose, there are things that don't make sense. This feels like one of those games where there are no mafia left, and the mod is just trolling us. But of course Jo wouldn't do that, so... somebody has to be mafia, and have made decisions that may not even make sense.
Like, in the game I moderated, M-XI, Ftl was a the last scum, and he really threw the town off by no killing one night. he thought he had to do it to give himself an alibi, but I'm not actually sure he really did have to not kill, and it confused the hell out of people. So it could just be a situation like that, where scum actually made a possibly sub-optimal move, and it's just leading to huge amounts of confusion. Or, we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle, it actually made sense, I don't know.
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that's because joth gave him another role for balance. surely joth wouldn't give me another role!
yes, but the whole thing? I'm totally willing to post the whole thing minus the things joth said. I'm not allowed to post that. and you didn't address that only one person died N4, or that neighbor is a silly fakeclaim.
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This feels like one of those games where there are no mafia left, and the mod is just trolling us.
That's happened before???
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Only one person died Night 4. Why?
One answer is that there was only one scum team still alive on Night 4. This means the remaining scum is an MU.
If the remaining scum is an MU, that means the MU have Rolecop + Bomb + X vs. Neighbor + 1-shot Roleblocker.
I explicitly reject this as a possibility.
Okay, so there were two scum teams still alive on Night 4. One scum team did not shoot. I don't know why, you're right. But I feel better about it knowing that if the last maquis is you, you don't need to worry especially about killing ashersky on night 4. In fact, you want him to live to investigate and clear you.
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This feels like one of those games where there are no mafia left, and the mod is just trolling us.
That's happened before???
Not on hte forums, no. It's happened when I have played in real life. It ended in tears and anger.
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Yeah Robz is either being really clever or he's Town.
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With the neighbor thing, yeah, you've just been really eager to establish yourself as a neighbor, and it's never meant much to me because Munch was a neighbor and could have fed you all the info I think. So I'm just not like super thrilled about that as acquitting evidence.
I mean, blah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if you are an IC and you're telling the truth about everything and... Jimm is scum? I don't know.
Or I could be way, way off on my assumption about the MU team, maybe Jo made a wildly imbalanced scum team, and I guess yuma could be our man there. I haven't even looked at the u possibilities very hard, frankly. At least if it's that, I won't say to myself,
"No! I should have figured it out!" I'll say, "Thanks a lot, mod."
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Yeah Robz is either being really clever or he's Town.
I'm definitely not being clever, so...
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I mean that in the sense that I am totally lost. Way more lost than I was when this day started. Legitimately, none of you seem like you could be scum.
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If I'm scum, then I was doing everything in my power to make sure that ash kept investigating for another night, which is just plain stupidity. You really think that's more likely than yuma bussing hard or jo creating unequal scumteams?
I do agree though, every possible scenario seems really unlikely.
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I don't think that the imbalance of teams in that situation is necessarily less likely then scum not killing anyone N4. but if we're explicitly rejecting things as possibilities, I explicitly reject the possibility that I am scum.
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I'm actually leaning towards Yuma now. I really should finish my robz read so I can start on yuma. Robz: why you post so much?? ;)
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If our scum is MU: He shot someone who could have been an alternative suspect and was not an investigation threat to the MU team, instead of one of the two people cleared of being MU. The scumteams are also wildly imbalanced.
If our scum is maquis: He either blocked the lightning rod(or is the lightning rod and took no action against the cop who could have investigated him on night 4. On night 5, he killed that cop.
!
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If I'm scum, then I was doing everything in my power to make sure that ash kept investigating for another night, which is just plain stupidity.
Somebody must have done something stupid for us to be in the state that we are currently in. though I suppose that person probably didn't realize that they did something stupid... although perhaps it wasn't stupid because it confused us, which is likely good for scum.
okay, not stupid, but a bad move.
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If our scum is MU: He shot someone who could have been an alternative suspect and was not an investigation threat to the MU team, instead of one of the two people cleared of being MU. The scumteams are also wildly imbalanced.
I don't think "cleared of being MU" would actually concern him terribly much, since he knows the teams are unbalanced and can simply argue that there can't possibly be another MU.
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if our scum is maquis they also either interacted very strangely with their partners, or are a godfather-1-shot-Jailkeeper-Neighbor.
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If I'm scum, then I was doing everything in my power to make sure that ash kept investigating for another night, which is just plain stupidity.
Somebody must have done something stupid for us to be in the state that we are currently in. though I suppose that person probably didn't realize that they did something stupid... although perhaps it wasn't stupid because it confused us, which is likely good for scum.
okay, not stupid, but a bad move.
ash was always going to investigate either you or me, to either create an IC or catch scum. That's pretty obvious to me. There's no way I both Roleblock yuma and not kill ash and make sure ash gets a proper investigation done. Either liopoil becomes an IC, which is bad for scum, or I'm caught, which is terrible. Sure, if either of the other two are Maquis, you would think that they would probably have killed ash. But if I'm Maquis, I kill ash Night 4. Period.
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if our scum is maquis they also either interacted very strangely with their partners
It's called bussing. It's a thing. The point is to gain Towncred, which seems to have worked. If one of me/yuma/Robz is Maquis, then either we bussed Glooble or Glooble bussed us. I agree that that's most likely to be yuma. He was going after Glooble from close to the start, so once Glooble gets lynched it makes yuma look really good. Robz had more of a subtle but decisive role in Glooble's lynch, which yeah could be interpreted as bussing, but it would have been the easiest thing in the world for him to stay on liopoil.
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I know what bussing is, but I mean, losing a partner hurts a lot. generally you would just want to stay away from them, maybe have a slight scumread on them and even vote! but I thought generally actively pushing the lynch is going too far, especially in multi-ball when even if people assume Yuma isn't maquis based on that he still could be scum.
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Jimmmmm! thoughts on robz/Yuma!?
robz, I think you should tell us who you think is scum and why. You cited not wanting to give scum info when we no lynch, but I think it's more giving them WIFOM. If they NK player X they look bad, but they could say someone is trying to frame them. Or they could lynch player Y to make someone else look bad. Honestly, if we no lynch I'm fairly sure I'm the one that dies regardless.
That would surprise me, because I think you have got to be scum.
It just doesn't make any sense for yuma to be scum, given his record on Munch and Glooble. There's also the fact about the consistent misspelling, which could be a gambit, but is probably more likely not. I guess he could be MU, but I really don't think the last scum is MU, I'm explicitly ruling out the 2 maquis + 3 MU scenario, since I find it the most absurd thing of all.
Jimm's past fits him being scum with Munch and Glooble better, but then his claim was established early, and fits his flavor name, and doesn't make sense as scum.
You, liopoil, fit the scum persona perfectly alongside Munch and Glooble. I was 99% confident you were there partner, until ash cleared you. You must be a godfather. is it a tad ridiculous? Absolutely. Does your scum team seem significantly overpowered? Yes. But of all the things I have to try to reconcile in order to come up with an explanation, it's the least absurd. It's still absurd, but what can I say?
I don't really expect to convince yuma and jimm that we should lynch the IC, though. I've just barely, scarcely convinced myself.
Robz are you seriously considering lio as scum or are you just trying to make a point. I don't understand this. I mean, I can't even consider lio being a godfather. It is just too out there for me I think. In my opinion it is borderline bastard to have a godfather in a closed setup. In an open one sure... that makes sense and is part of the fun. But in a closed one? It would be a horrible implementation of it. It just doesn't work. And for someone who has been so adamant that joth wouldn't make an unbalanced game I have a hard time thinking that you are actually considering this. Because a godfather in a closed setup I think would just be about as ridiculously close to bastard as you can get w/o actually being bastard.
I am thinking that this is scum grasping at straws to try and deflect away from himself now that he is being focused on.
Lio obviously won't say it is true... Jimmm what do you think of this suggestion by Robz?
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note that if Jimmmmm is confident that I am town he can vote for robz, leave it there long enough for me to hammer if I was scum, then unvote, just to prove it to robz. Don't trust this from me though, if I was scum I would totally want you guys to test this :P
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I'm actually leaning towards Yuma now. I really should finish my robz read so I can start on yuma. Robz: why you post so much?? ;)
I guess I am confused by this. I am confused how you cannot be having a scum read on Robz from the past events... Look, I am not trying to force your opinion, but you did ask for feedback and this is mine. I am confused. This is why I am confused. 1. Robz brings up the no lynch only when he starts to get pressure on himself and foresees his impending lynch. 2. Robz is scrambling in suggesting that you are a godfather, a suggestion that I find ridiculous. 3. And you kinda mention this, but in everything that I have reread of Robz, you are missing the crucial days and interactions with Glooble and Themunch in later days (as well as interactions with mcmc if he does happen to be MU). I think you will find these interactions as scummy as I found them as you start to read beyond day3.
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note that if Jimmmmm is confident that I am town he can vote for robz, leave it there long enough for me to hammer if I was scum, then unvote, just to prove it to robz. Don't trust this from me though, if I was scum I would totally want you guys to test this :P
I would be up for doing this. I even offer myself up as the person to vote for as long as it is in the order of Robz/Jimmm and then lio last. If lio is scum/godfather/roleblocker/mason I give up. But he isn't. It is just something crazy Robz cooked up so we would stop talking about him.
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oh there are plenty of reasons to think robz is scum, and I would totally have a scumread on him if it weren't for the things he mentioned in his defense. I mean, there are tons of reasons to believe you are scum too, but you also have lots of good defenses. Like we've said, none of the scenarios make any sense. It's more that Yuma being scum seems more POSSIBLE, in that the weird things that would have to be true for you to be scum aren't as weird as for everything else.
Also, one more thing in regard to robz thinking I'm scum: role independent of alignment. Godfather is always a scum role. But off of that...:
can vigilante be a scum role? and beloved?
I'm only going to be able to post a few little posts tomorrow, no big analysis of anyone.
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deadline is march 4th. we have time... not that no lynch would be terrible.
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oh there are plenty of reasons to think robz is scum, and I would totally have a scumread on him if it weren't for the things he mentioned in his defense. I mean, there are tons of reasons to believe you are scum too, but you also have lots of good defenses. Like we've said, none of the scenarios make any sense. It's more that Yuma being scum seems more POSSIBLE, in that the weird things that would have to be true for you to be scum aren't as weird as for everything else.
Also, one more thing in regard to robz thinking I'm scum: role independent of alignment. Godfather is always a scum role. But off of that...:
can vigilante be a scum role? and beloved?
I'm only going to be able to post a few little posts tomorrow, no big analysis of anyone.
There can be scum vigilantes... but they are generally considered to be over powered. Beloved Princess... I think the scum equivalent of that would basically be vengeful... a scum who when he is killed is able to kill another player during the twilight (so basically another night kill)...
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Jimmmmm! thoughts on robz/Yuma!?
robz, I think you should tell us who you think is scum and why. You cited not wanting to give scum info when we no lynch, but I think it's more giving them WIFOM. If they NK player X they look bad, but they could say someone is trying to frame them. Or they could lynch player Y to make someone else look bad. Honestly, if we no lynch I'm fairly sure I'm the one that dies regardless.
That would surprise me, because I think you have got to be scum.
It just doesn't make any sense for yuma to be scum, given his record on Munch and Glooble. There's also the fact about the consistent misspelling, which could be a gambit, but is probably more likely not. I guess he could be MU, but I really don't think the last scum is MU, I'm explicitly ruling out the 2 maquis + 3 MU scenario, since I find it the most absurd thing of all.
Jimm's past fits him being scum with Munch and Glooble better, but then his claim was established early, and fits his flavor name, and doesn't make sense as scum.
You, liopoil, fit the scum persona perfectly alongside Munch and Glooble. I was 99% confident you were there partner, until ash cleared you. You must be a godfather. is it a tad ridiculous? Absolutely. Does your scum team seem significantly overpowered? Yes. But of all the things I have to try to reconcile in order to come up with an explanation, it's the least absurd. It's still absurd, but what can I say?
I don't really expect to convince yuma and jimm that we should lynch the IC, though. I've just barely, scarcely convinced myself.
Robz are you seriously considering lio as scum or are you just trying to make a point. I don't understand this. I mean, I can't even consider lio being a godfather. It is just too out there for me I think. In my opinion it is borderline bastard to have a godfather in a closed setup. In an open one sure... that makes sense and is part of the fun. But in a closed one? It would be a horrible implementation of it. It just doesn't work. And for someone who has been so adamant that joth wouldn't make an unbalanced game I have a hard time thinking that you are actually considering this. Because a godfather in a closed setup I think would just be about as ridiculously close to bastard as you can get w/o actually being bastard.
I am thinking that this is scum grasping at straws to try and deflect away from himself now that he is being focused on.
Lio obviously won't say it is true... Jimmm what do you think of this suggestion by Robz?
Yuma, two things.
Yes, I'm suggesting some wild things. We lose if we lynch me, sorry, I know you don't believe that, but it's the truth. Am I grasping at straws, maybe. Again, we lose if we lynch me.
Second, part of the crazy theory I'm grasping about liopoil stems fromt he fact that I have a hard time imagining either you or Jimm as scum. I have implauisiblities to explain no matter which route I go. There is no obvious. There's no un-obvious but sensible answer. Every answer has a gaping flaw. The implausibility of godfather is the gaping flaw with this strategy. That said, I don't tihnk it's quite so bastard as you mention. We know any role could be in this game. So maybe it was our faults for not considering this earlier.
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deadline is march 4th. we have time... not that no lynch would be terrible.
I agree we have time and should absolutely make the best of it, but I do think we should be wary of entering into a MXXI situation where we spend too much time and lose some of our clarity.
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scum beloved princess isn't vengeful because there are two teams, and town PRs.
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Yuma, the testing if I'm scum thing only works if it's on robz, because robz is never going to agree to test it. If it was on you he would have to put you at L-1, which he won't do.
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I agree with yuma that a Godfather seems bastardlyish in a closed setup if we don't know that there is one. But a Godfather+RB/JK? Come on.
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I feel like I should have more to talk about in this game, especially since we are in such a pressure situation, but kinda feel like everything I need to say I have already said and would just be cluttering up the thread further.
So to summarize where I am at.
I think Robz is scum. It could be Jimmm, but I think Robz is more likely and am willing to bet the game on it. Yes, there is a chance that lio is the last scum, but it is such a small chance that I am not even seriously considering it.
It appears, however, that we are moving toward a no-lynch. I guess I am ok with that. But am not going to actually vote no lynch until lio is done with his analysis. This isn't to prevent scum from sending us into night before lio gets his thoughts down... I think that would be a pretty blatant and obvious scumplay so I am not worried about it happening. But rather just to make sure it isn't done on accident... Although if it happened we would have a new category for our mafia dictionary: "derp no-lynch."
I am still willing to respond to questions and posts that people bring up, but I guess I just don't see myself bringing up unique or new information.
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I was thinking about the Neighbourhood. How beneficial/detrimental do we think it is to Maquis/MU? I'm not saying this would have been the right thing to do, but if shraeye had activated his IC status Day 1, and theorel and lio, raerae and Munch had claimed confirmed non-MU, suddenly we have 5 "confirmed" non-MU, before theorel's even investigated anyone. That's one third of the whole town. Had all this come out on a later Day, it would have made it a heck of a lot easier to narrow down the MUs than the Maquises (Maquii??). Also, Munch had two people who he knew the roles of, and who had reason to believe he was more likely Town than the average player. So Maquis are going to be less likely to be lynched since one of them may be protected by two Townies, and more likely to hit MU if they're scumhunting, or PRs if they're PR-hunting. Case in point, Maquis hit MU Night 1 (unless of course it was Eevee and MU aimed for theorel), while MU killed raerae, probably someone Maquis never even considered killing. Also, Rolecop's obviously quite powerful, but Bomb? What good could Bomb possibly do for a lone mcmc once Galz was gone. Bomb in a 2-man team has a 50% chance of being utterly useless in helping that teams win chances. Well okay, it gives him something to claim that will reduce his chance of being NKed. So that's something. But still, I don't think it's that wonderful.
So it seems to me that once you consider the effect of the Neighbourhood, a 3-person MU team and 2-person Maquis team isn't nearly as unbalanced as Robz says it is. And it also seems that the most likely reason that only one person died on Night 4 is because there was only one scumteam. And I don't think trying to guess how the mod would set up the game is nearly as convincing as actual real solid evidence, which we have. So yeah, I'm actually thinking there is one MU left. It could very well be yuma, but Robz' insistence that that's impossible is increasing my suspicion of him.
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nice catch, I forgot about that! (obviously because I'm not actually a neighbor, but a godfather-jailkeeper). We did consider claiming D1, but decided against it. not sure if that was the right choice. I had thought that there was a good chance that there was another neighborhood which was confirmed not-maquis. But that is a very good way to balance the setup. I don't think neighbor was that weak of a role for munch. There was a very small chance I was ever going to vote for him until near the end of the game. He also got to tell glooble everything we thought. So I agree now about there being 3 MU, 2 Maquis. Here's another reason:
if there's a third MU, then they killed ashersky N5 for some reason.
if there's a third Maquis, then they didn't kill anyone N4, and roleblocked/jailed Yuma. The roleblocker/jailer was likely 1-shot, and so would likely be all used up by N4.
The balance is even better if Yuma is the last scum, and is a one shot lightning rod, because that is almost always a negative utility for scum.
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I'm not going to quote as large a percentage of his posts now. A) to save time, and B) because galzria is dead at this point. I am going to pay more attention to his interactions with munch/glooble, because Yuma asked me to and not much will come from his interactions with mcmc once robz has claimed.
This is very frustrating, I did not announce intent post twice and go to bed. I announced intent, came back a few hours later expecting to find at most one page of new things, an answer to the question that had still been out there and I would hammer. I instead came back to 6 pages and a mini wagon on a second player, i believe cuzz was not even a L-1 anymore(will check this when im not on movile)So I decided wow maybe lynching cuzz isn't the right idea anymore, I couldn't put my vote down untill I read the 6 new pages which I was not planning on nor wanted to do 7 hours before waking up for class, so I went to bed. Again expecting to wake up to a few more posts, I would read everything and post my thoughts which would have included a vote for cuzz. Instead I once agai woke up to a surprise, thread was locked and cuzz had been hammered.
In summary please stop saying I posted and went to bed as though I didn't care about the cuzz lynch, the game exploded in the few hours I was gone, this is not a blitz game and we were not at deadline.
Does anyone dispute that this is a perfectly satisfactory answer? At least for Mcmc's hammer not coming... I mean, he's exactly right here the timeframe of it, because I was very active that day and I was around when he said he would hammer and I was still around late at night when he reappeared in the middle of shraeye's mini-wagon. He couldn't even hammer then, since Cuzz wasn't L-1. It was really late at night, I don't think he had a responsibility to stay on and wait it out or even contribute, we weren't at deadline.
He defended mcmc a fair bit D2 before he claimed, which I guess supports his claim being true. He said he had a reason to think shraeye was scum but wasn't going to say it yet. I can't find where he says it. He also talks about munch a fair bit.
Okay, I do think the Mcmc lynch is a mistake. I am a 1-shot Tracker. Last night, I tracked mcmcsalot. He took no action. I think this makes him significantly less likely to be scum, given what we know already.
FWIW, I have some (disastrous) experience as a Tracker (in M-XII, where I epic fail at it), but I still think my psychology for picking who to track was pretty much on in that game, so I stuck with it. I don't want to track the obvious people, because the obvious people aren't going to kill anyone (because they expect the tracker to be watching them). This is mafia 101, even in games without a tracker for some reason the less suspicious partner does the kill (Galz always did the kill in M-II; I was more suspicious, even though it didn't matter). So I was not going to track the people who came under heavy suspicion yesterday, which includes shraeye, Jimm, and Eevee basically. I was never going to track Galzria because he's just too obvious a person anyway, and there's always that likelihood he gets nightkilled just for being Galzria--which I bet is what happened here; I doubt a scum faction really thought they were shooting scum in Galz. So I wanted to pick someone who I thought could be scum, but who didn't know that I thought they could be scum. Like, Glooble and Dsell I really didn't think were scum, so I wasn't picking them. Also, just from what I know about my brother, he's like a really gung-ho guy (he posted his phone number in blitz whatever for goodness sake, so people could tell him when the lynch was happening), and it seemed reasonable if he was on a scumfaction he'd be likely to be the one taking the shot, just because he wanted to, in addition to everything else.
Well, he didn't do anything. I've thought about this a lot; this means he's probably not scum, right? If he were scum, and he were on Galzria's team, well, Galz is the rolecop, and it's pretty likely Galz can't take the shot AND rolecop someone, so unless it's a three person team, Mcmc takes the shot there. If Mcmc were SK, he has to take the shot. Of course there's a perfectly plausible scenario where Mcmc is on some other team, and for whatever reason was not the person who took the shot.
But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.
claim post! midway through D2. re-reading it, it sounds genuine to me, as have his most of his posts D6. I really can't find much more to analyze in this post, but you should all read it carefully to decide if you think it is a real claim.
vote: ashersky
For this:
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
Agreeing with Glooble that I'm not being like scumshraeye.
Then immediately reverting to me, because I'm the most likely candidate.
unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
Woah, this is a huge contradiction, Glooble.
I don't see the contradiction here, but still, either bussing, or not maquis. (duh)
Oops, nevermind. I read Glooble as saying he opposed shraeye lynch, and then later saying shraeye was his second choice... but the second statement was ash. Forget it!
could he have done that on purpose? Could be he decided to bus, then realized his bussing was wrong...
Yeah. It's just going to be Eevee or no one, now.
(Of course I can see it: "You've lynched Eevee, the Town-Doctor/Jailkeeper/Vigilante/Neighborizer.")
Well, there's nothing else to do, and he is a scumread.
Vote: Eevee
This feels weird, I guess I almost never actually cast hammer votes. Well anyway, here we go.
Hammers eevee. He had said he was willing to do this for quite some time. However, he was also not against a shraeye, liopoil, or munch lynch. If he's MU of course he's okay with those lynches. If he's maquis then he included munch to distance himself from him, since munch wasn't going to be lynched. Overall I think this is a scummy post.
His body is found stuffed into an ore processing shaft with a phaser wound in his back. The autopsy finds he was also poisoned, strangely.
The good news, though, is no one else died last night. The bad news is that shraeye was killed. He was Jake Sisko, Station-aligned Innocent Child.
phasered and poisoned. I think he was almost certainly doublekilled, which means all five scum were okay with shraeye dying. robz on either team had a scumread of sorts on shraeye, so killing shraeye does make sense. Glooble might have blocked the MU kill I guess...
D3
Okay, obviously, if someone is roleblocker, they should claim, because they found scum in all likelihood.
If the kill was doctored, jailed, etc.,.... then don't say anything.
I agree with this. Also Robz, who did you track? What did you find out? (unless you want to wait to share your information)
If robz was maquis, then he also isn't a tracker, and would munch really ask him this? it's possible they planned this.
Nobody. I was one-shot, man.
To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
A lot of people have read this as scummy, namely Yuma I think. But really, he has had bad reads. eevee, cuzz, shraeye, mcmc to name a few, and of course he was absolutely certain I was scum. these reads seem to be a little bit TOO blatantly wrong for him to be scum. Also I especially think he can't be maquis, because if he was maquis he knew I was town as soon as theorel claimed.
I feel like waving some of my reads. Munch specifically. With shraeye being town, I don't think it's fair to munch that I keep to the evidence that points to him next. I've just been very wrong.
Ashersky and Glooble, I may have gone too far toward saying they are definitely town. I still think they are town though.
Mcmc is a night evidence based read, so that would remains for now.
states not-suspicion on the three people who were alive then that we know are scum. But he has good reason for the mcmc read.
One quick thought and potential question: If Robz's had been roleblocked would he have received a different result than a result if mcmc really hadn't targeted anyone? Or would have the two scenarios have resulted in the same result? This potentially opens up a scenario in which mcmc could be the SK and could be further analyzed if someone claims to have blocked Robz at some point down the road.
No, I asked Jo about that. My result makes it clearer that Mcmc didn't target anyone, not that I was roleblocked.
good to know! so is there anyone that glooble might have blocked that could matter?
How exactly does a tracker work? if mcmc had made an action, does it tell robz what he did? who he targeted? both?
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Liopoil: Here's how tracking works. I pick someone. I learn the names of any person that the person I picked targeted. My result was "No one." Which means mcmcsalot targeted no one on the night I tracked him.
(For the sake of your education, a similar role is "Watcher." A watcher chooses someone. Then the watcher learns the name of any player who targeted the player he chose.)
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By the way, I think what Jimm says about three MUs does make sense, and it makes me more comfortable considering that option. Although the only result of that line of thinking from my perspective is that yuma is scum. I've said I don't think yuma is scum because it doesn't make sense for him to be partnered with Munch/Glooble, but it could be I was just making a huge oversight and I should look at his Galz/mcmc stuff. But why does MU yuma shoot ashersky last night, and not, uh, Jim? Actually, I guess my really good relationship with ashersky could explain it. Maybe he was too worried to face both me and ash today, since we are very much on the same page.
My one big caveat to jimm's post, though, is that it relies on information about the neighborhood that comes from liopoil. Which again, under my godfather liopoil scenario, is just fabrications based on Munch's participation in a neighborhood with raerae. And I guess I should expand on my thoughts about godfather liopoil. I doubt he's totally immune from investigation. Maybe it's something weird where like he investigates scum if the SK cop investigates him, but town if the other two do. That seems more likely to me than a totally immune to investigation godfather. As I've said, liopoil fits being munch and glooble's partner 1,000 times more neatly than anyone else.
But okay. I see what Jimm is saying.
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Jimmmmm, hurry up and vote for robz so we can make him start thinking about people who aren't IC's being scum! I mean, if you think I might be scum, then obviously don't...
thanks robz. I was considering why you might claim one-shot tracker during D2 as jailkeeper/roleblocker scum...
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Jimmmmm, hurry up and vote for robz so we can make him start thinking about people who aren't IC's being scum! I mean, if you think I might be scum, then obviously don't...
thanks robz. I was considering why you might claim one-shot tracker during D2 as jailkeeper/roleblocker scum...
I am thinking about people who aren't ICs being scum! I agree yuma for MU, definitely, if it's MU, and hey, jimm has a good theory on that.
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yes I know, but like you said it makes much more sense if you know that you can trust me, because of the neighborhood.
actually, even if I'm scum there still is a neighborhood, it's just smaller. And why would I make up the confirmed not-MU thing if theorel already cleared me of that, and nobody was actually ever suspected me of that?
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yes I know, but like you said it makes much more sense if you know that you can trust me, because of the neighborhood.
actually, even if I'm scum there still is a neighborhood, it's just smaller. And why would I make up the confirmed not-MU thing if theorel already cleared me of that, and nobody was actually ever suspected me of that?
The confirmed non-MU thing explains your actions re-raerae and munch throughout the game, so you owuld make it up to explain your friendship with munch and rae.
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hmmm, fair point.
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Robz, do you really believe that someone would be both a Godfather AND a RB/JK?
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D3 continued.
Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
Ridiculous. I have repeatedly asked you why you are suspicious of me--you keep alluding to evidence without actually presenting it, and I keep asking you to be explicit, and you keep ignoring me.
Other people are raising issues about me that I think have merit. I don't know what you're doing.
I'm confused as to what munch is doing as well. he's a neighbor!
So... ultimately, I am really torn between the two of them. They are neck and neck, though for totally different reasons. I guess I do ultimately lean Vote: Glooble. His contributions are less than liopoil's, and they lessen as time goes on.
Doesn't necessarily need to do this if he is glooble's partner. If he kept his vote on me I might have been lynched. Nothing has really fit with robz being maquis anyway.
--mcmc bomb claim--
Uh, I think you're logic there is off, and you claiming was not a good idea. Because scum are going to kill someone, and of all the people they could kill, it's best if they kill you. Imagine if both scum teams shot you: two dead scum! Now they'll just kill someone else instead.
I understand the instinct for survival, but that was probably a huge mistake.
Nevertheless, I believe your claim.
I agree that claiming was bad for town. It was good for scum!mcmc though, and I think I pointed this out at the time. I don't think mcmcpartner!robz points this out.
D4
The only conf. scum left is mcmc.
Did a breezy read-through of Galz to try and figure out who is his partner.
Galz defended Jimm early.
Said nobody was really lurking.
Said mcmc was slightly scummy.
Late in Day 1, said the four scummiest people were mcmc, jimm, shraeye, and cuzz. He ended up voting for Cuzz.
Says Theorel is town, and reiterates scum reads on jimm and mcmcsalot.
That's everything from him.
I also looked to see who voted for him, and not one person ever did (except me, jokingly, in RVS).
The part I bolded is I think maybe a big clue, because half those people are dead town. Now, does Galz put his scummate in this group? I'd think he might. Jimm or mcmc. He mentions that pair again, too. There's a case to be made that one of these people would be his partner. Since I don't think it's mcmc because of the tracking, that would make me think of Jimm as a top suspect to be Galz's partner.
Of course, it could just be that Galz exempted his partner from placement on his own suspicion list.
This sounds like a town post to me. He was right about the Jimmmmm-mcmc thing. We really should have seen this and lynched mcmc D4 instead of Dsell. I mean, I was probably a better lynch than Dsell...
We have <Robz, yuma, Jimm, mcmcsalot, Dsell> where exactly 1 or 2 of those people are scum.
We have <liopoil> where exactly 1 of liopoil is scum.
Liopoil is scum. I guarantee it, 99%.
silly robz. This again points to him not being maquis because he would know that I am town. That combined with the tracker result claim makes me fairly confident that if he is scum, he is MU.
D5
Vote: mcmcsalot
Hammers mcmc. this was the main reason I had for suspecting robz. I thought it was likely a last minute bus-hammer. I also think that day might have been too short. A ton of the stuff we are discussing today should have been discussed then. I thought this vote was a bit of a 180, but he had mentioned several times that he thinks at this point that he thinks his tracker result doesn't hold as much weight anymore. Really, I don't actually see any really strong reason for suspecting Robz.
Nothing significant has happened regarding Robz being scum D6, but his posts have read townier today then before, just on vibes.
So, after the mcmc flip I was actually fairly sure it was robz. Now I'm not really seeing it as much. I feel it's probably Yuma now, but I really never have given him a very close look. Hopefully will get to reading him soon.
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that took a long time. 400 posts is a lot of reading!
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thoughts?
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Not really, other than I'm with you in thinking it's probably yuma, and he's MU. That would explain only one kill Night 4, and is a better explanation as to why ash died than Robz killing him (although he could have done it for this exact line of reasoning). Scum yuma must have known that today's kill would most likely come down to either him or Robz, and if he leaves ash alive, ash most likely makes me an IC and argues strongly for the yuma lynch.
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Obviously I disagree about your conclusions on me, but more importantly I disagree about how you got there. It actually makes me question whether or not you read my posts earlier about Robz. I feel like I detailed pretty clearly how Robz chose glooble over you at a point where I believe it was obvious that glooble was going to be the lynch.
I will outline this again though...
For starters was Robz's abrupt change in read on Glooble starting from day1, caused by a reaction to votes that "felt genuine." I don't know what to make of that, except to say that to me it was not genuine and if people had actually applied pressure day1 we could have had a scum lynch and would probably be game over, town win at this point...
Before Robz put glooble to a vote, both lio and glooble were at L-2, this was the breakdown...
Glooble (4): ashersky, theorel, yuma. liopoil, {L-2}
Robz888 (1): TheMunch
liopoil (4): Jimmmmm, mcmcsalot, glooble, Robz {L-2}
TheMunch (1): Dsell
At this point the only players not voting glooble or lio were themunch and dsell. Let's go back and look at what they had to say before that point.
Themunch: I am 100% against a liopoil lynch.
. Anyone remember this... Themunch was not voting for lio under any circumstances. Robz knew this and knew there would be one less player capable of voting for lio.
Dsell: I am very torn on Liopoil and Glooble, to be honest. I feel like Glooble is very very very hard to read, even though I've played scum with him before. And Liopoil is hard to read because he's new and I've never seen him play.
Liopoil has seemed slightly scummier, but that is basically what I would expect from a newbie vs a known lurker.
I suppose I prefer a Liopoil lynch.
Dsell says that he is torn, ultimately decides that he prefers lio, but could go either way... as evidenced by him actually going toward glooble in the end.
So from robz's perspective he knows that at most he will be able to get 1 of the two players not voting onto his not-partner lio.
Let's look at the people voting for glooble and see if they would be willing to move that way:
ash: I think Glooble is more likely to go through. Liopoil is looking bad, but I think less scummy and more newbie.
although he does later say that he is willing to switch, but really only to end the day. He has been voting glooble since the beginning of the day and I think is very unlikely to switch
yuma: My previous read on lio (from late day2) changed a gut scum read into a non-scum read. I still lean toward town on him.
I had basically been on glooble all day and was unlikely to change.
lio: obviously wasn't going to change toward himself.
theorel: theorel started out liking the lynch toward lio, but eventually settled pretty steadfastly on glooble... actually scratch that, theorel kinda of maintained a bit of an even willingness to lynch either glooble or lio all day.
As for the players voting for lio:
Jimmm: never really seemed like he would be voting for glooble
mcmc: had previously voted for glooble
glooble: wasn't going to change obviously.
so at this point Robz needed to find 2 more players to get onto lio. themunch/yuma/lio were certainly out. ash/theorel/dsell were a toss up either way with the first two leaning glooble and dsell leaning lio; mcmc might switch back the other way and then he would need 3 players! Not great odds of getting lio lynched if you ask me, what looked more likely was that glooble would get lynched w/o Robz on him.
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But honestly I have expected myself to be the lynch today--as I also expected to be lynched yesterday. I said repeatedly that if I were in the opposite position... that is if someone had claimed LR and it didn't go off, I would probably be lynching that person.
That we were able to get mcmc yesterday was great! It gave town the chance to win. But I was very surprised--not necessarily by the result--but rather that he was lynches instead of me.
But here we are and I still think we have a chance to win... And I think lynching robz is the best chance for that. It could be Jimmmm, but I doubt it. It could be lio, but I highly doubt it.
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You're arguing that Robz is Maquis correct? If so, why did he not kill anyone Night 4?
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You're arguing that Robz is Maquis correct? If so, why did he not kill anyone Night 4?
I don't know! I really don't! I have ideas... but nothing solid. I mean, there is the idea that instead of killing he roleblocked me because he couldn't do both. But like I said before if he did that then why would he pretend to have tracked mcmc? Or did he also roleblock mcmc that night? But if he did that then did Galz perform the kill? Well if Galz performed the kill... and we can assume that he rolecoped, then how come Robz couldn't also nightkill and block? I mean I am just going in circles here.
And I am not sure Robz is marquis... sorry maquis. he could also be MU. I was just pointing out that I think the evidence points more toward Robz being maquis than it does toward me.
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What evidence is there to suggest Robz is MU?
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I don't think anyone except lio can be mu.
But I really like Jim's theory about why the last scum should be mu.
For me, Yuma is the only mu possibility of course.
The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
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I don't think anyone except lio can be mu.
But I really like Jim's theory about why the last scum should be mu.
For me, Yuma is the only mu possibility of course.
The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
Oops, should be anyone but lio couldn't be maquis ***
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What evidence is there to suggest Robz is MU?
you mean beside the fact that he is the only player to have actively deflected an impending lynch away from scum in mcmc.
I mean... look. Here is the scenario. Mcmc is about to get lynched. He is at L-2. That team has already lost Galz N1 and to lose another player would be devestating. Basically game over I think. Robz knows this and thinks fast. He realizes he can claim tracker. He can say that because Galz was rolecop and since he tracked mcmc and didn't see him target anyone, that mcmc can't have been the person performing the NK, therefore he is less likely to be scum. It doesn't matter whether or not mcmc actually performed the NK or not because Robz can just claim this and in so doing both mcmc and robz become somewhat unlynchable. mcmc because he was less likely to be scum. Robz because he did a townie thing in saving a townie! and it worked great! mcmc was never in danger of being lynched until yesterday. Robz has never been near being lynched either.
It seems that the only reason that goes against this train of thought is because supposedly robz wouldn't have killed ash in the night. But I have already explained this and have already explained the above as well.... Apparently no one reads my posts!!!
Robz knows that because mcmc flipped MU, he will be more highly suspicious because of his involvement with him tracking. As such he needs to get the focus off him... A good way to do that is to get the focus of there being a MU. The best way to do that, kill someone that only a maquis would want to kill... the maquis cop in ash! Not to mention that there is the built in feature of "Robz would never kill ash, ash was too buddy buddy with him and had a town read on him."
But I have said this already. If you really want to know what I think about things, go read my posts.
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The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
What do you mean by this?
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Ninja'd by yuma.
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I was trying to stay awake to see what you meant, but it is bedtime. I have an early day tomorrow, starting a new clinical rotation in hemostasis and thrombosis. Yay! Clotting!
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The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
What do you mean by this?
Lio, Jim, and I keep changing our minds; responding to the very really fact that this is confusing and hard, and we don't want to blow it. Yuma however has been mostly gunning or me. I think it's because he just needs to get someone lynched to win. The rest of us have to find and kill the scum. It explains his behavior . Phone posting til morning sorry
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Hmm you may have a point. On the other hand, I'd be gunning for you too if I was yuma, whether I was Town or scum.
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Hmm you may have a point. On the other hand, I'd be gunning for you too if I was yuma, whether I was Town or scum.
I haven't gunned for Yuma though. Because I legitimately was not sure he was scum.
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The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
What do you mean by this?
Lio, Jim, and I keep changing our minds; responding to the very really fact that this is confusing and hard, and we don't want to blow it. Yuma however has been mostly gunning or me. I think it's because he just needs to get someone lynched to win. The rest of us have to find and kill the scum. It explains his behavior . Phone posting til morning sorry
I emphatically disagree with this! I have done my due diligence. I am looking to lynch scum. I want to win this game. Look back at the previous pages. I have done my rereads, I have weighed my options, I have even changed my mind a bit (because apparently if you are capable of changing your mind you are guaranteed town?) But eventually we all have to come to a conclusion.
Just because I did my rereads and formed my opinion before anyone else doesn't mean I am gunning for a lynch. What it means is that I believe you are the most likely to be scum. I am still willing to look at new concepts and ideas and have been doing so. This is a really hard day. It is confusing and hard, but at some point you are going to have to choose. I already made my choice. Not because it is obvious, but because the remaining evidence points more greatly toward you than to the other players. I am not sorry that I am more wishywashy about this. I am not going nto "blow" this game by chasing fantasy scenarios. I am sticking with what is most likely. And until something is presented that meakes me think otherwise... I am sticking with you. Call that gunning for a lynch, fine... But I would call it gunning for the most likely to be scum.
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The thing that makes me suspicious of him is that he seems like we wants to achieve a lynch rather than find scum.
What do you mean by this?
Lio, Jim, and I keep changing our minds; responding to the very really fact that this is confusing and hard, and we don't want to blow it. Yuma however has been mostly gunning or me. I think it's because he just needs to get someone lynched to win. The rest of us have to find and kill the scum. It explains his behavior . Phone posting til morning sorry
I emphatically disagree with this! I have done my due diligence. I am looking to lynch scum. I want to win this game. Look back at the previous pages. I have done my rereads, I have weighed my options, I have even changed my mind a bit (because apparently if you are capable of changing your mind you are guaranteed town?) But eventually we all have to come to a conclusion.
Just because I did my rereads and formed my opinion before anyone else doesn't mean I am gunning for a lynch. What it means is that I believe you are the most likely to be scum. I am still willing to look at new concepts and ideas and have been doing so. This is a really hard day. It is confusing and hard, but at some point you are going to have to choose. I already made my choice. Not because it is obvious, but because the remaining evidence points more greatly toward you than to the other players. I am not sorry that I am more wishywashy about this. I am not going nto "blow" this game by chasing fantasy scenarios. I am sticking with what is most likely. And until something is presented that meakes me think otherwise... I am sticking with you. Call that gunning for a lynch, fine... But I would call it gunning for the most likely to be scum.
Woah. Implying that wishywashiness is bad is a scumtell. At least, I know it's something I've done as scum, trying to guilt trip townies who change their mind too much.
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Dude: that was not what I was saying at all. What I was saying was that not being wishywashy isn't a scum tell. (I know double negative... sorry). Just because I have done my own rereads, developed my own opinions, carefully taken into consideration what others have said and at the end of that believe that I have come to a correct conclusion on who I think is scum doesn't mean I am scum. Obviously.
You have your methods and I have mine. Although I can see where you are coming from because my term "wishywashy" does have a negative connotation. It wasn't necessarily intended to be that way, but I think was my attempt to put into words what I was feeling...
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GUYS!!!!!!!! I made a horrible, horrible, horrible mistake.
Night4 I didn't use my LR because I didn't send in the PM to jotheonah. I did however send in a PM to jtotheonah, which I don't think he checks!!! I just noticed this as I was skimming through my sent posts to find another post for another game. So I believe I still have a 1-shot LR available to use.
Ugggg!!!!!!! I feel horrible. I mean that stupid mistake could easily cost us the game. (it would have prevented theorel's death, although I would be dead right now). I can't even tell you how mad I am right now!
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GAH!!!!! Stupid! Stupid! Stupid!
We are going to have to create a term for my stupidity to put into our mafia lexicon... I can't think of anything right now because of how pathetically angry I feel right now. But I am sure someone will come up with something appropriate.
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...
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So you used the Yuma Rod.
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So you used the Yuma Rod.
apparently... Well at least now I can tell my mom I am famous for something
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Okay, so we don't have to explain the existence of a second roleblocker/jailkeeper sort, which was always slightly problematic.
I... don't remember which cases on which people were stronger/weaker because of that element of the discussion, though.
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This is coming from the maRquis guy, though. I wonder if this is just some line of convenient mistakes.
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Okay, so we don't have to explain the existence of a second roleblocker/jailkeeper sort, which was always slightly problematic.
I... don't remember which cases on which people were stronger/weaker because of that element of the discussion, though.
I know this changes everything. I can only hope that it changes it in a positive way.... But seriously guys I am super, super sorry. I feel like a complete idiot.
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This is coming from the maRquis guy, though. I wonder if this is just some line of convenient mistakes.
oh sure, kick me while I am down.
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Oh, it's no problem. I have made two big, big mistakes of a similar vein, in M-VI and RM Noir.
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This is coming from the maRquis guy, though. I wonder if this is just some line of convenient mistakes.
oh sure, kick me while I am down.
Well I have to say it! I don't know man. I don't know about you.
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hey guys, what if we no lynch now and Yuma LRs?? :D I guess scum would just no kill...
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but wow, this is crazy.
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still working on Yuma analysis.
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hey guys, what if we no lynch now and Yuma LRs?? :D I guess scum would just no kill...
that was my immediate thought, but at this point I think LR is pretty much useless. I can't think of a way to use it that would 1. help town or 2. help prove to you guys that I am in fact a LR.
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I thought you used your 1-shot??????
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alright guys I need to leave for a bit to go grocery shopping. But when I get back I fully expect you all to have figured out the full implications of what my idiocy means for the game moving forward...
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Oh. Caught up. Huh.
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I plan to activate two lightning rods tonight to make up for this.
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I think if yuma's telling the truth he should have just argued strongly for no lynch but not told us about LR.
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Actually I'm convinced that Town yuma could have won us the game by keeping quiet and pushing for a no lynch.
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I'm not sure that would have helped matters. Because we would have spent tomorrow trying to figure out a scum!reason yuma died, when in actuality it would have been a town!reason, the LR. Assuming he is town and LR.
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I'm actually fairly inclined to believe yuma actually. Surely if this was some elaborate scum plot then he would have come out about it when he was L-1 yesterday?
On second thoughts that would have caused us to expect him to use it that night, so maybe he was just waiting it out, hoping to survive until lylo. Hmm.
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I'm not sure that would have helped matters. Because we would have spent tomorrow trying to figure out a scum!reason yuma died, when in actuality it would have been a town!reason, the LR. Assuming he is town and LR.
Maybe. I think I would have been like, "Really Robz? You expect me to believe that liopoil killed yuma?"
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This actually doesn't really change my thinking about yuma at all. If he's town and Lr, okay he forgot, totally reasonable. If he's scum and LR, well he was never actually going to use it, so this is just an after-the-fact excuse. If he's scum and not LR, ditto.
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I'm not sure that would have helped matters. Because we would have spent tomorrow trying to figure out a scum!reason yuma died, when in actuality it would have been a town!reason, the LR. Assuming he is town and LR.
Maybe. I think I would have been like, "Really Robz? You expect me to believe that liopoil killed yuma?"
It would have totally fed my conspiracy theory about lio being godfather!
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My point is, it would cause us to debate something on false terms known only to dead!yuma, which is not a very pro-town thing to do.
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It's possible it does have some effect on whether we should No Lynch or not. I think it makes it... better that we should No Lynch? Because scum will be slightly more confused about what to do? Unless scum is yuma, in which case he must have said this as part of some plan for what he does tonight.
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I think when you're one of two people where one of you is the last scum in the game, then sacrificing yourself to save a confirmed Townie is so pro-Town that it cancels out the anti-Town confusion. I mean, we'd have no idea what happened, but we'd still lynch you and win.
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oh yes, town!yuma definately should have not said anything because we were going to no lynch anyway, and only tell us if we were about to lynch someone. then he could get himself killed. Sure we'd be even more confused, but then it would be just be between robz and Jimmmmm.
Jimmmmm, do you consider it even a tiny bit possible that I am scum?
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question: what happens if we no lynch and scum no kills, and we no lynch again, and scum no kills again, and on and on forever.
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I remember something about a happily ever after rule or something that relates to this.
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3 consecutive phases with no killing/lynching and I'll either Happily Ever After or MODKILL EVERYONE. Depending on my mood.
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does happily ever after mean we all win? :D
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3 consecutive phases with no killing/lynching and I'll either Happily Ever After or MODKILL EVERYONE. Depending on my mood.
But what will happen first: Us needing to lynch to avert HEA/Modkill, or scum needing to shoot to avert HEA/Modkill?
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well, if we start it then scum will need to.
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Actually I'm convinced that Town yuma could have won us the game by keeping quiet and pushing for a no lynch.
sorry if you are correct. I didn't really think the implications through. I saw my mistake and my gut reaction was to let you guys know as quickly as possible.
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well, if we start it then scum will need to.
No, if we no-lynch and scum no-kills, then we will need to lynch.
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Jimmmmm, do you consider it even a tiny bit possible that I am scum?
For me the recent LR debacle has made it go from 0% to maybe 2%. I suppose that would go up significantly if someone else was killed after a no-lynch. But really, if you're scum then the rest of us have been screwed over by a setup that was focused on our two half-Cops with no indication that they're close to utterly useless.
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Actually I think a no-lynch is pointless even without yuma's LR. What incentive would scum have to actually kill someone?
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For now I am going to unvote Robz until I fully take into consideration what I have learned in the past 24 hours.
Hopefully I will be able to do that tonight.
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I think if it came to it, I would push for Happily Ever After to count as a draw for all parties re: rankings. No one would win, no one would lose. Except of course, factions already eliminated completely, if said factions exist. They would register a loss. This hypothetical is presented for informational purposes and should in no way be construed to disclose the number of factions still at play in the game.
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Gosh, now the mod's making me think you're both scum.
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Actually I think a no-lynch is pointless even without yuma's LR. What incentive would scum have to actually kill someone?
I think there was a chance they would have killed someone... but not much of a chance now.
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Should we at least try and no lynch and give scum the chance to night kill...? And maybe scum will? Although if scum does I guess it would be to scum's advantage (or at least scum would think it was to their advantage) and so we wouldn't want to no lynch?
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Should we at least try and no lynch and give scum the chance to night kill...? And maybe scum will? Although if scum does I guess it would be to scum's advantage (or at least scum would think it was to their advantage) and so we wouldn't want to no lynch?
I don't think it hurts, but it also probably doesn't matter.
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okay. imagine this scenario:
no lynch and no kill two nights/days in a row. On the third day no lynch. Do we think scum will kill?
If we think scum will kill, or we are okay with modkill/HEA, here's what we should do:
tell Yuma to randomly pick a night, one, two, or three, and not tell us which. On that night he LRs. We no lynch until someone dies. gives us a 1/3 chance of Yuma dying, not someone else. (me).
But before we do anything else we should all make up our mind on who we think the scum is.
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Gosh, now the mod's making me think you're both scum.
The possibility, however slim, of there being two scum is another reason to no lynch.
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okay. imagine this scenario:
no lynch and no kill two nights/days in a row. On the third day no lynch. Do we think scum will kill?
If we think scum will kill, or we are okay with modkill/HEA, here's what we should do:
tell Yuma to randomly pick a night, one, two, or three, and not tell us which. On that night he LRs. We no lynch until someone dies. gives us a 1/3 chance of Yuma dying, not someone else. (me).
But before we do anything else we should all make up our mind on who we think the scum is.
I don't know. Like I really don't know. I guess that's fine.
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well, if we assume that a draw is half as good as a win, and Mass-modkill is just as likely as HEA, then scum gets on average a quarter-win. Therefore the question is, do they think they have more than a 1/4 chance of winning by killing?
This is risky because we get an average of a quarter-win as well. Our chances are definately better then that, because we could get that by just randomly lynching one of us.
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Okay. I sort of just still think we should No Lynch anyway, so whatever. I don't see like a really good or obvious way to turn this into a tangible benefit.
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well, I think what I suggested is potentially helpful. Well, only if Yuma is town. I guess it likely isn't worth the risk.
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no lynch and no kill two nights/days in a row. On the third day no lynch. Do we think scum will kill?
I think you misunderstand what jo meant. I think if we no-lynch then scum no-kills then we no-lynch again the game's over.
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3 consecutive phases with no killing/lynching and I'll either Happily Ever After or MODKILL EVERYONE. Depending on my mood.
hmmm. does phases mean a day+night, or just one of those? probably the latter. So scratch my idea.
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well, I think what I suggested is potentially helpful. Well, only if Yuma is town. I guess it likely isn't worth the risk.
That's the thing. If you're so sure yuma is town, we don't really need gimmicks.
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Okay so here's the scenario that's forming in my head:
The MU team was Galz, mcmc, Robz. Robz was, in fact, a 1-shot Tracker, like he said, thus it was a safe claim for him. Maybe he's even a full Tracker, but of course claiming 1-shot that's been used makes him unlikely to be nightkilled. After he lost one partner and looked like losing another, he decided the best thing to do was to claim and say he Tracked mcmc. Maybe he actually tracked me or someone, I don't know. He figured that scum generally want to claim late, so claiming early gives him Town cred, and he can definitely give Town cred to mcmc as well. And of course it worked. Later on the time came to bus mcmc, and so of course he did that, since lynching mcmc is what Town Robz would have done.
Then we get to last night. On the one hand Robz doesn't want to kill ash, because of ash's Town read on him. But maybe he can use that to his advantage. Robz' plan is to make it seem impossible that there can be a third MU, so he can't be critiqued for his interaction with mcmc. But if he argues that, then having ash around is a problem. ash can't be Maquis, so saying there can't be MU left makes ash, plus whoever he investigated an "IC". He was unlikely to investigate Robz because of his Town read on him, so killing liopoil means there will most likely be two confirmed non-Maquis, so Robz arguing that there has to be a Maquis left will put it to a 50/50 between him and either me or yuma. So of course he kills ash. He loses the benefit of having ash around saying he's Town, but he gets the benefit of having a confirmed Town who said he was Town, and someone died who Robz "surely" wouldn't've killed, and he can now go ahead with his "There has to be a Maquis" plan more safely.
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The reason I reject this scenario is that it doesn't work for me! The result is you guys lynch me. That's probably what's going to happen. It's not what would happen if ash was still alive. Why take a chance on the WIFOM argument working when I can just win?
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I agree it DOES seem unlikely that you would kill ash. Which is what would have made it seem advantageous. You can now use arguments like that.
Anyway, I just don't know. I really want to get this right. But you just both seem probTown. I haven't been able to put all that much time and effort in lately. I still need to re-read you before I'd be comfortable voting, and I also want to re-read what ash was saying about you.
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Okay, now that I know that joth meant three half-days, I don't think we should nolynch. There is absolutely no way that it can potentially benefit town I think.
Jimmmmm, that's the scenario I was sure was the case when mcmc flipped scum. It 100% fit with everything. And then ashersky died...
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Jimmmmm, that's the scenario I was sure was the case when mcmc flipped scum. It 100% fit with everything. And then ashersky died...
Exactly.
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Okay, say robz is MU, and he kills one of liopoil/Jimmmmm. the other one is conf. town. (ash investigates Jimmmmm). From what Jimmmmm is saying I think whichever is still alive of liopoil/Jimmmmm is going to be very sure that Robz is the scum. If the IC refuses to vote for anyone besides the scum then the scum cannot win. Even if Ashersky would eventually have to consent and lynch robz, because even from him he has to understand that there is a non-zero chance that lynching robz wins the game for town, and a zero chance that never lynching wins the game for town.
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What I'm mosting saying is that if Robz wants to go down his "There can't possibly be MU left" line of arguments, then killing liopoil leaves him and one other possible Maquis, and killing ash leaves him and two other possible Maquis.
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mostly*
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What I'm mosting saying is that if Robz wants to go down his "There can't possibly be MU left" line of arguments, then killing liopoil leaves him and one other possible Maquis, and killing ash leaves him and two other possible Maquis.
But I'm not convinced of that anymore. You convinced me.
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Okay so here's the scenario that's forming in my head:
The MU team was Galz, mcmc, Robz. Robz was, in fact, a 1-shot Tracker, like he said, thus it was a safe claim for him. Maybe he's even a full Tracker, but of course claiming 1-shot that's been used makes him unlikely to be nightkilled. After he lost one partner and looked like losing another, he decided the best thing to do was to claim and say he Tracked mcmc. Maybe he actually tracked me or someone, I don't know. He figured that scum generally want to claim late, so claiming early gives him Town cred, and he can definitely give Town cred to mcmc as well. And of course it worked. Later on the time came to bus mcmc, and so of course he did that, since lynching mcmc is what Town Robz would have done.
Then we get to last night. On the one hand Robz doesn't want to kill ash, because of ash's Town read on him. But maybe he can use that to his advantage. Robz' plan is to make it seem impossible that there can be a third MU, so he can't be critiqued for his interaction with mcmc. But if he argues that, then having ash around is a problem. ash can't be Maquis, so saying there can't be MU left makes ash, plus whoever he investigated an "IC". He was unlikely to investigate Robz because of his Town read on him, so killing liopoil means there will most likely be two confirmed non-Maquis, so Robz arguing that there has to be a Maquis left will put it to a 50/50 between him and either me or yuma. So of course he kills ash. He loses the benefit of having ash around saying he's Town, but he gets the benefit of having a confirmed Town who said he was Town, and someone died who Robz "surely" wouldn't've killed, and he can now go ahead with his "There has to be a Maquis" plan more safely.
I feel like I have suggested almost this exact idea a couple of times, but it is nice to see that someone else is thinking the same thing.
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You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, and we're going to lose.
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In his ready room on the Starship Enterprise, Captain Picard thinks back to the first time he met Benjamin Sisko. He seemed like such a competent officer. Hard to imagine he let the situation go so far to hell, and also that he defected to the Maquis.
"Picard to Riker. How long until we reach the Bajoran system, Number One?"
"Another couple of hours, sir."
"Acknowledged. Hopefully we'll still find a station there when we arrive."
Vote Count 6.2
No Lynch (1): Robz888
Not Voting (3): yuma, liopoil, Jimmmmm
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is March 4th at 8 am, forum time. That's in 5 days including a weekend, people.
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Yuma!
D1
I think I will vote: mcmcsalot for this, but also for first finding the eevee case strong; 2. attempting to cast me as a potential scum partner for defending it but then ignoring all the others who defended it. 3. and then turning on Jimmm once it was apparent that the eevee wagon was going nowhere. Making a case on a bad case builder is a safe route for scum to go.
his first vote of the game, on MU scum. Robz's first vote was on MU too, but that was RVS, this isn't.
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
He doesn't interact with the scum much D1, but there is this, and later this:
blah... well I am kinda disappointed in the reaction to glooble's reaction. It was just too easy.... I personally want to hear more from Glooble
And as we know he continues this scumread on glooble the whole way. He also says a few of the other cases aren't as good, so he really is saying that the glooble lynch is his most preffered lynch.
3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so...
...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them. And regardless of alignment they are still members of "the town" in this imaginary game world they live side by side with the rest of us and have a voice and a vote.
Oh... and Galz too hasn't weighed in yet
This has been mentioned as a scum slip for yuma being MU, and it actually is kinda bad. I really believe the marquis-maquis thing was a legit error, and that combined with his interaction with glooble make me think he isn't maquis, but I think there is something to him being MU.
Very little interaction with galzria, mcmc, and munch D1. That's scummy I think.
D2
--galzria anaylsis--
It's very interesting actually, I suggest you read it, but it is a bit long to quote in full. I think scum would tend not to interact too much with their partners. galz-mcmc didn't and glooble-munch didn't. He says that he doesn't think it is mcmc because he had a townread on him.
just found this quote from Glooble:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you (this is refering to Cuzz) flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip."
after Cuzz was lynched, but before thread lock and flip...
This is interesting. (because I am more interested in finding Galz's partner, I am paying more attention to the galz part of this, but the fact that Glooble included shraeye in this is interesting)
1. Assuming here that Glooble is scum and on the scum team with Galz.
2. Neither Glooble nor Galz would know what the alignment of Cuzz was--he very well could have been opposing scum.
3. Glooble expresses a town read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum, but a potential scum read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum.
4. This is a win/win for Glooble!partner with Galz. Because if Cuzz is scum, he can now safely have a town read on his partner that won't be especially scrutinized. But if Cuzz is town, he can start a bussread on his partner, again w/o much scrutiny...
So I guess the question is this: would scum!Glooble express a strong town read on his partner? Now I guess he is actually expressing more of a scum read than a town read. Because from scum!Glooble's perspective, Cuzz was more likely to flip town--as scum!Glooble would know that Cuzz wasn't on a scum team with him, so even though he didn't know Cuzz's alignment, he suspected that Cuzz was perhaps more likely to flip town, so his read while potentially strong town was actually more setup to be a scum read...
I think Galzparner!Glooble could write something like this.
Personally I think that quote points to glooble being MAQUIS, not MU. It would make sense that glooble would want to kill galzria from this. But I can see galzpartner!Yuma wanting to make it look like someone else is galz's partner. This also makes absolutely no sense if yuma is maquis.
I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote...
He mentions mcmc along with glooble a lot... but usually it is with glooble being slightly more suspicious... he does end up voting mcmc though, so hmmmmm.....
--mcmc analysis--
Makes a bunch of good points about why mcmc is scummy. Very risky to do if he is on a team with him that already lost a member. But maybe he thought mcmc wouldn't get lynched anyway. Since he's losing if he's MU maybe taking risks is okay.
--Glooble analysis--
I think that this post could be written by Maquis!yuma. The case definatly isn't as good as the one on mcmc, and he then votes for mcmc. However, that isn't to say that this post sounds like maquis!yuma. Really, these cases on glooble and mcmc are very towny.
He constantly re-iterates his top two scumreads are glooble and mcmc. He never thinks that anyone else is scum. He made good cases on both. Would Yuma make a full case on his partner that had real merit to it on D2?? It doesn't seem worth it to me.
D3
--response to glooble defense--
glooble and Yuma have a big back and forth discussion. I'm feeling like if Yuma is scum then he is MU. Another thing: if yuma is maquis then the nokill N4 is even more confusing, because he doesn't have a different night action to take like, say, maquis Jimmmmmm might. (jailkeep yuma.), unless he isn't a LR. I think he is a LR though, because that's a bad fakeclaim.
He later backs off glooble a bit and switches to Jimmmmm. He doesn't mention mcmc much, but defends his claim. When the glooble wagon materializes he switches back to glooble.
D4
I am a 1-shot Lightning Rod. I have not yet used my power because I think it is a negative utility to town. Yes it would prevent one less death at night, but thus far that would have been bad because we have had scum dying at night, but more importantly it would effectively cause both cop investigations to be nullified. I doubt I will be using it this game because of this... so it is a pretty weak power role. But joth did say that some roles would have a negative utility.
If he is scum that helps balance the third team. immideatly explains why he hasn't LRed yet.
o and I am Elim Garak?
Yuma, how does Elim Garak relate to being a lightning rod? I think Robz has answered this question already.... but I think all four of us should say why again. For me: Rom is a ferengi, and is a blood relative to quark and nog, who are raerae and munch respectively.
I talked to joth day 1 about LR. He said that the LR could be stopped from activating by a couple of roles that I asked specifically about--I won't say which ones specifically, but I will say that nothing that has been claimed is capable of stopping it.
I think you should tell us now yuma!
well if I can't get theorel on board, I'll go back to vote: dsell
This is soon after Robz votes dsell to put him as L-2. in the next post, 19minutes later, MU mcmc hammers. This isn't exactly a quickhammer because the day had been played out and some people were ready for a hammer. however, theorel still hadn't said definitively that yuma should LR (I think), and we had lots of time and things to discuss. scummy.....
D5
At first seems resigned that he is going to be lynched, but then argues against it (which is protown if he is town I guess).
well I will join our IC in voting vote: Robz
redirection. I'm not sure why I didn't consider Yuma more then. Maybe I just thought Robz could so easily be a JK, and at that point it made sense that there was just a MU left (because only theorel died).
It became clear soon that it was going to be mcmc or him. the thing to do with either allignment is to vote mcmc, so I don't think this is much of a defense.
D6
Nothing of importance today except these two:
Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead.
I noticed that, and had no idea what to make of it.
That is embarrassing... I thought it was "marquis" as in French for nobility. I really know nothing about star trek. What does maquis mean? It must mean something because Google Chrome doesn't even want to auto-correct it... Oh it is also French for "a member of a movement, specifically the one against Germany in WWII.
Again, I don't think he could fake this, or would fake this. He would be sure to slip and spell it right without thinking right? So the question is if he could not know how to spell his team name.
GUYS!!!!!!!! I made a horrible, horrible, horrible mistake.
Night4 I didn't use my LR because I didn't send in the PM to jotheonah. I did however send in a PM to jtotheonah, which I don't think he checks!!! I just noticed this as I was skimming through my sent posts to find another post for another game. So I believe I still have a 1-shot LR available to use.
Ugggg!!!!!!! I feel horrible. I mean that stupid mistake could easily cost us the game. (it would have prevented theorel's death, although I would be dead right now). I can't even tell you how mad I am right now!
8 minutes after his last post. It is very possible that he went and saw it, and wrote this post in that time span, but you could also say that he just made another post right after that because he was scum and faking. It did come at a very convienient time for him. I'm wondering though: how is it that he made this mistake? typo in typing in the name?
Theoretically he could also be lying as town. It would make sense. Either way he is willing to do anything to avoid being lynched, because he loses if he is lynched, regardless of alignment.
Summary: I think Yuma as maquis is very unlikely. Yuma as MU is probably the most likely scenario.
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thinking about copying all my analysis into one big big post. Would that be obnoxiously large though? or convenient?
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I saw somewhere that joth said he gave the speccy QT setup info. Man, I can't wait to see the speccy once this is over...
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I saw somewhere that joth said he gave the speccy QT setup info. Man, I can't wait to see the speccy once this is over...
Yeah, they're probably laughing their asses off at us.
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Summary: I think Yuma as maquis is very unlikely. Yuma as MU is probably the most likely scenario.
The most likely scenario if yuma is scum, or the most likely scenario out of everything?
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there are five scenarios:
yuma is maquis
yuma is MU
Robz is maquis
Robz is MU
Jimmmmm is Maquis,
Of these five, Yuma being MU I currently think is the most likely.
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Of these five, Yuma being MU I currently think is the most likely.
I don't get it. You think that it is more likely that I am partners with mcmc/Galz than Robz?
Let me have you take a closer look at day2, which I think is the essential day to analyze when considering these two scenarios.
1. If I were MU would I willingly push mcmc to a lynch day2 just after having lost my other partner in Galz? I was the third vote on mcmc's wagon at a time when there was another viable wagon in shraeye and over another option in glooble. No! That would be suicidal. There is very little chance to win at that point. You say it is worth being risky at this point since MU is already behind. Again I say, no! The route to go there is to not be risky, but to play preventative and keep your team alive.
2. If Robz were MU would he willingly prevent the lynch of his partner just after having lost his other partner? Yes! That would be essential to keeping the MU team alive for a win. You might argue that it is obvious scum play. But as theorel has said over and over again, obvious play is obvious play. And it worked! Mcmc wasn't lynched and robz gained town credit because of it. But remember robz prevented the lynch of a confirmed scum. Whereas I was on the wagon of that confirmed scum.
Which of us is more likely to be MU? Somehow you think it is me. I think--and I believe that Jimmmmm agrees--that it is actually Robz that is more likely to be MU. Jimmmm how do you view these scenarios?
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Here is what has to be true for each of those scenarios:
Yuma is maquis:
-teams are rolecop/bomb Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker/1-shot lightning rod
-Yuma either doesn't know how to spell his team name or fakes not knowing how to spell it.
-Yuma didn't kill anyone N4
-Yuma lied about accidentally sending PM to Jtotheonah instead of jotheonah
-Galzria did the maquis kill N1
-Yuma actively pushed his teammates lynch
Yuma is MU:
-teams are rolecop/bomb/1-shot lightning rod Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker. Remember the neighborhood.
-Yuma killed ashersky N5
-yuma lied about accidentally sending PM to Jtotheonah instead of jotheonah
-Yuma made a case on his partner, mcmc, and had a strong scumread on him at a point.
-Galzria or yuma did the MU kill N1
Robz is Maquis:
-teams are rolecop/bomb Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker/1-shot tracker
-Robz killed nobody N4
-Robz claimed D2 and gave acquitting evidence to mcmc.
-chose his teammate over me to be the lynch D3.
-Galzria did the MU kill N1
Robz is MU:
-teams are rolecop/bomb/??? maybe tracker Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker. remember the neighborhood.
-Robz killed ashersky N5
-interacted a ton with one of his partners D1.
Jimmmmm is Maquis:
-teams are rolecop/bomb Vs neighbor/1-shot roleblocker/???
-breadcrumbed fakeclaim from very beginning
-killed nobody N4
I'm almost certainly forgetting quite a few things from these lists. anything to add?
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Robz is MU:
-teams are rolecop/bomb/??? maybe tracker Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker. remember the neighborhood.
-Robz killed ashersky N5
-interacted a ton with one of his partners D1.
I just said this above, but you are leaving off a crucial piece in that Robz as MU stopped the lynch of his partner in mcmc with a tracking result.
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robz's claim makes sense as something he would do as MU AND as town, so little can be gleamed from it. He was also later on the mcmc wagon, but that was at the very end when the lynch was probably unpreventable.
I said risky makes sense because even if you can stay alive by playing it safe you probably aren't going to win. Anyway, it's WIFOM. You could have doe it just so you could say that now.
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Yuma doesn't have to be lightning rod or not be lightning rod, and his Jo PM thing could be a lie, regardless of him being scum.
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8 minutes after his last post. It is very possible that he went and saw it, and wrote this post in that time span, but you could also say that he just made another post right after that because he was scum and faking. It did come at a very convienient time for him. I'm wondering though: how is it that he made this mistake? typo in typing in the name?
These are good questions.... I saw the mistake when I was quoting a post count that I sent to myself for another game. I first responded to something in this thread and then moved over to MXX. But when I saw my mistake I quickly came back over and posted about it.
I am not sure how the mistake was made. It was a few weeks ago. But my hypothesis is that when I send a message I normally type in the first few letters of a name and then pick from the list that appears. So I am guessing that I typed in "jto" rather than "jot" and selected the name jtotheonah when it appeared and didn't even notice it until later.
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robz's claim makes sense as something he would do as MU AND as town, so little can be gleamed from it. He was also later on the mcmc wagon, but that was at the very end when the lynch was probably unpreventable.
But you can say that about anything!!! According to you as scum I would have pushed for a mcmc lynch. As town I would have been scum hunting--and successfully might I add. So nothing can be gleamed from this either!
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you are less likely to push the mcmc lynch as scum. That is a mark in your favor.
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one of the main things is that everything makes much much more sense if Yuma is maquis. pushing the lynch on mcmc is actually the biggest things that doesn't fit.
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you are less likely to push the mcmc lynch as scum. That is a mark in your favor.
But what I am saying is this?
What is more likely?
That I as MU would push for the lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
Or
That Robz as scum would prevent a lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
To me it seems that the better answer is Robz, because losing two partners by day2 isn't winnable. Whereas saving a partner still keeps the chances of winning alive.
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I actually think the scummiest thing about yuma is his overall behavior, especially today. I feel like he basically remained more or less insistent on voting for me the whole time. Which like, I know I'm the only person who knows for sure that that's bad, but the rest of us have all changed are mind a lot--a reflection of how truly hard this is, I think. Yuma just wants to get someone--me--lynched and take home his scum win.
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Yuma is MU:
-teams are rolecop/bomb/1-shot lightning rod Vs. neighbor/1-shot roleblocker. Remember the neighborhood.
-Yuma killed ashersky N5
-yuma lied about accidentally sending PM to Jtotheonah instead of jotheonah
-Yuma made a case on his partner, mcmc, and had a strong scumread on him at a point.
-Galzria or yuma did the MU kill N1
-The teams are balanced. 1-shot lightning rod is TERRIBLE, and then there's the neighborhood.
-killing ashersky makes sense for MU Yuma N5
-The more I think about it the more I doubt the legitimacy of the mix-up. Though as robz says, you could have lied here as town.
-Not all-acquitting, but the best point in his favor.
-explains the tracker result.
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the second one is more likely of course. But that is not the only thing. for instance:
Who is more likely to kill ashersky N5? MU robz or MU yuma? and the answer is MU yuma.
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you are less likely to push the mcmc lynch as scum. That is a mark in your favor.
But what I am saying is this?
What is more likely?
That I as MU would push for the lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
Or
That Robz as scum would prevent a lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
To me it seems that the better answer is Robz, because losing two partners by day2 isn't winnable. Whereas saving a partner still keeps the chances of winning alive.
I agree that my Day 2 actions are pretty damn scummy.
But about you "pushing" mcmc... let's be real here. Scum push their partners. In some games I feel like scum push their own partners more than they do townies. It has to be more than just a push to really count for something.
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I actually think the scummiest thing about yuma is his overall behavior, especially today. I feel like he basically remained more or less insistent on voting for me the whole time. Which like, I know I'm the only person who knows for sure that that's bad, but the rest of us have all changed are mind a lot--a reflection of how truly hard this is, I think. Yuma just wants to get someone--me--lynched and take home his scum win.
but that isn't even true! I was highly considering Jimmmmm as the remaining scum early in the day. But after actually looking at the facts I came to the conclusion that he has a less of a chance of being scum than you. I mean, evidence aside. He can't be MU, you can. And I am not even going to consider lio being Godfather. Sorry, but I am not.... Furthermore, when you add in the evidence I think it points significantly toward you. So, yes I am pushing for you lynch because I think you are the remaining scum.
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my post about all the scenarios. I was listing all the things that would also have to be true if player X was on scumteam Y, to measure the plausability of each scenario.
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I actually think the scummiest thing about yuma is his overall behavior, especially today. I feel like he basically remained more or less insistent on voting for me the whole time. Which like, I know I'm the only person who knows for sure that that's bad, but the rest of us have all changed are mind a lot--a reflection of how truly hard this is, I think. Yuma just wants to get someone--me--lynched and take home his scum win.
but that isn't even true! I was highly considering Jimmmmm as the remaining scum early in the day. But after actually looking at the facts I came to the conclusion that he has a less of a chance of being scum than you. I mean, evidence aside. He can't be MU, you can. And I am not even going to consider lio being Godfather. Sorry, but I am not.... Furthermore, when you add in the evidence I think it points significantly toward you. So, yes I am pushing for you lynch because I think you are the remaining scum.
And I was pushing for No Lynch in the hope that scum might screw up and make our job easier by shooting somebody, and then you had to come in and ruin it with your stupid "I didn't LR!" confession.
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you are less likely to push the mcmc lynch as scum. That is a mark in your favor.
But what I am saying is this?
What is more likely?
That I as MU would push for the lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
Or
That Robz as scum would prevent a lynch of a partner while already a man down from a NK?
To me it seems that the better answer is Robz, because losing two partners by day2 isn't winnable. Whereas saving a partner still keeps the chances of winning alive.
I agree that my Day 2 actions are pretty damn scummy.
But about you "pushing" mcmc... let's be real here. Scum push their partners. In some games I feel like scum push their own partners more than they do townies. It has to be more than just a push to really count for something.
I know scum push their partners... But do they push their partners up to a L-2 just after having lost their partner on Day2 of a multiscum game.
Ok, let's say I am MU. And let's say that mcmc was lynched. Where would I be? Entering day3 as the lone remaining scum up against town and another scum team. The odds of winning are very slim. At this point I would basically be an underpowered SK. Scum would not try to get their partner lynched the very next day. They wouldn't. It is not a winnable game plan.
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I agree that Yuma has been more scummy today than robz. However, I do not think that counts for much, when we have all this other evidence.
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I actually think the scummiest thing about yuma is his overall behavior, especially today. I feel like he basically remained more or less insistent on voting for me the whole time. Which like, I know I'm the only person who knows for sure that that's bad, but the rest of us have all changed are mind a lot--a reflection of how truly hard this is, I think. Yuma just wants to get someone--me--lynched and take home his scum win.
but that isn't even true! I was highly considering Jimmmmm as the remaining scum early in the day. But after actually looking at the facts I came to the conclusion that he has a less of a chance of being scum than you. I mean, evidence aside. He can't be MU, you can. And I am not even going to consider lio being Godfather. Sorry, but I am not.... Furthermore, when you add in the evidence I think it points significantly toward you. So, yes I am pushing for you lynch because I think you are the remaining scum.
And I was pushing for No Lynch in the hope that scum might screw up and make our job easier by shooting somebody, and then you had to come in and ruin it with your stupid "I didn't LR!" confession.
well soooooorrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyy!
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I'm sure if you are MU you didn't actually want mcmc lynched.
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You were being risky and walking the fine line between the disaster of mcmc being lynched and the success of winning D6 when you show everybody what a crazy thing you did D2 if you were scum.
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Oh, and this too.
3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so...
...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them.
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I'm sure if you are MU you didn't actually want mcmc lynched.
So instead I would have what? Waited until he reached L-1 unvoted on the sly and hoped that nobody noticed?
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You were being risky and walking the fine line between the disaster of mcmc being lynched and the success of winning D6 when you show everybody what a crazy thing you did D2 if you were scum.
I am not sure what you mean here
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Oh, and this too.
3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so...
...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them.
And I am not sure what you want from me here either? I believe I have already addressed it, but further, if you think I am MU it can't be a scum slip because mcmc isn't town. He was MU. And I would have known that....
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Jimmmmmm what do you have to say?
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Not much at the moment, about to head out. liopoil's obviously leaning yuma, I'm still slightly leaning Robz. It has to be one of you two, but I'm struggling to see how we can get it to better than 50/50. I'll add more when I have more time.
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Not much at the moment, about to head out. liopoil's obviously leaning yuma, I'm still slightly leaning Robz. It has to be one of you two, but I'm struggling to see how we can get it to better than 50/50. I'll add more when I have more time.
That is why I can't figure out why Robz thinks I am scummy for believing scum to be Robz. Does anyone else find it weird that he is so hesitant to point the finger at me?
It can't be lio... Robz is the only person seriously considering that.
It probably isn't Jimmmmm. I considered the idea briefly, but Robz has been a greater supporter of it.
Maybe I do think being so wishywashy in this context is scummy... Is Robz trying to keep his options open and seeing if he can convince 2 of us to go somewhere else onto Jimmmm or lio? I think he might have, but now that he sees that neither of those lynches are going through he is turning his sights toward me?
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Maybe I do think being so wishywashy in this context is scummy... Is Robz trying to keep his options open and seeing if he can convince 2 of us to go somewhere else onto Jimmmm or lio? I think he might have, but now that he sees that neither of those lynches are going through he is turning his sights toward me?
This is ignorant, and unbelievable, and frankly insulting. I'm trying to find the last scum, goddamit. You aren't a perfect match, and neither is anyone else. I'm changing my mind a lot because this is really difficult. If it were obvious, we are all competent enough to get it by now. And anyway, I'm voting for my plan, which was a good one, which may have made this easier and wouldn't have hurt, and you screwed that up. And no, I think the scummier thing is being pretty sure of yourself like you are. I'm still not entirely convinced it's you.
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Maybe I do think being so wishywashy in this context is scummy... Is Robz trying to keep his options open and seeing if he can convince 2 of us to go somewhere else onto Jimmmm or lio? I think he might have, but now that he sees that neither of those lynches are going through he is turning his sights toward me?
This is ignorant, and unbelievable, and frankly insulting. I'm trying to find the last scum, goddamit. You aren't a perfect match, and neither is anyone else. I'm changing my mind a lot because this is really difficult. If it were obvious, we are all competent enough to get it by now. And anyway, I'm voting for my plan, which was a good one, which may have made this easier and wouldn't have hurt, and you screwed that up. And no, I think the scummier thing is being pretty sure of yourself like you are. I'm still not entirely convinced it's you.
not trying to be insulting... not at all. Look from my perspective I dont' know that you are the last remaining scum. I am not sure. I am not themunch! But in this game you have to look at the evidence and everything else and try and determine what is most likely.
I will repeat myself. 1. the odds point to you. 2. the evidence points to you. The odds don't point to Jimmm or lio, nor does the evidence in as much abundance point to them. So I have decided that I am picking you as the remaining scum. I made my decision and I am sticking with it. I thought that perhaps the new info of my not using LR might change that I relooked at everything, but it didn't. In fact I think it makes you even more likely to be the remaining scum.
And as for ruining your plan. That wasn't my intention. I am sorry. I just wanted to let you guys know that I hadn't used the LR. I panicked because of my stupidity. You keep pounding it in that I screwed up. I already know that...
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I don't know if I keep "pounding it in." I complained about it twice...
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About using evidence to decide that it's me... okay that's fine, it just doesn't feel like that's what you did. And I myself am having a much harder time being persuaded by any amount of evidence, since there's so much in every direction.
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About using evidence to decide that it's me... okay that's fine, it just doesn't feel like that's what you did. And I myself am having a much harder time being persuaded by any amount of evidence, since there's so much in every direction.
But I do feel like I did...you remember my weird math that I did earlier today? I mean I was the first to get rereads down on both you and Jimmmm... I did it very early in the day, but that doesn't mean I didn't do it. If you dont' believe me go back and look at today.
And maybe Jimmmm is pulling one over on us. It is possible. I just think it is less possible when I stack everything up against itself. I have to go with what I think is most probable.
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My re-reads, posted together so I and others can read it to remember stuff easily:
Yuma:
D1
I think I will vote: mcmcsalot for this, but also for first finding the eevee case strong; 2. attempting to cast me as a potential scum partner for defending it but then ignoring all the others who defended it. 3. and then turning on Jimmm once it was apparent that the eevee wagon was going nowhere. Making a case on a bad case builder is a safe route for scum to go.
his first vote of the game, on MU scum. Robz's first vote was on MU too, but that was RVS, this isn't.
now that is the sort of Day 1 case that I understand and can get behind. It isn't trying to make something out of nothing. (well it is because it is making a case out of lack of posts, but you know what I mean...) vote: glooble
He doesn't interact with the scum much D1, but there is this, and later this:
blah... well I am kinda disappointed in the reaction to glooble's reaction. It was just too easy.... I personally want to hear more from Glooble
And as we know he continues this scumread on glooble the whole way. He also says a few of the other cases aren't as good, so he really is saying that the glooble lynch is his most preffered lynch.
3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so...
...how do you know Robz and Mcmc are town? Scum slip?
... whether or not they are members of "station" or "marquies" I still want to hear from them. And regardless of alignment they are still members of "the town" in this imaginary game world they live side by side with the rest of us and have a voice and a vote.
Oh... and Galz too hasn't weighed in yet
This has been mentioned as a scum slip for yuma being MU, and it actually is kinda bad. I really believe the marquis-maquis thing was a legit error, and that combined with his interaction with glooble make me think he isn't maquis, but I think there is something to him being MU.
Very little interaction with galzria, mcmc, and munch D1. That's scummy I think.
D2
--galzria anaylsis--
It's very interesting actually, I suggest you read it, but it is a bit long to quote in full. I think scum would tend not to interact too much with their partners. galz-mcmc didn't and glooble-munch didn't. He says that he doesn't think it is mcmc because he had a townread on him.
just found this quote from Glooble:
I have fairly strong townreads on Galz and shraeye at the moment (and obviously myself.) Of course, if you (this is refering to Cuzz) flip town, I will be suspicious of them. But first we need to see a flip."
after Cuzz was lynched, but before thread lock and flip...
This is interesting. (because I am more interested in finding Galz's partner, I am paying more attention to the galz part of this, but the fact that Glooble included shraeye in this is interesting)
1. Assuming here that Glooble is scum and on the scum team with Galz.
2. Neither Glooble nor Galz would know what the alignment of Cuzz was--he very well could have been opposing scum.
3. Glooble expresses a town read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum, but a potential scum read on Galz if Cuzz flips scum.
4. This is a win/win for Glooble!partner with Galz. Because if Cuzz is scum, he can now safely have a town read on his partner that won't be especially scrutinized. But if Cuzz is town, he can start a bussread on his partner, again w/o much scrutiny...
So I guess the question is this: would scum!Glooble express a strong town read on his partner? Now I guess he is actually expressing more of a scum read than a town read. Because from scum!Glooble's perspective, Cuzz was more likely to flip town--as scum!Glooble would know that Cuzz wasn't on a scum team with him, so even though he didn't know Cuzz's alignment, he suspected that Cuzz was perhaps more likely to flip town, so his read while potentially strong town was actually more setup to be a scum read...
I think Galzparner!Glooble could write something like this.
Personally I think that quote points to glooble being MAQUIS, not MU. It would make sense that glooble would want to kill galzria from this. But I can see galzpartner!Yuma wanting to make it look like someone else is galz's partner. This also makes absolutely no sense if yuma is maquis.
I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote...
He mentions mcmc along with glooble a lot... but usually it is with glooble being slightly more suspicious... he does end up voting mcmc though, so hmmmmm.....
--mcmc analysis--
Makes a bunch of good points about why mcmc is scummy. Very risky to do if he is on a team with him that already lost a member. But maybe he thought mcmc wouldn't get lynched anyway. Since he's losing if he's MU maybe taking risks is okay.
--Glooble analysis--
I think that this post could be written by Maquis!yuma. The case definatly isn't as good as the one on mcmc, and he then votes for mcmc. However, that isn't to say that this post sounds like maquis!yuma. Really, these cases on glooble and mcmc are very towny.
He constantly re-iterates his top two scumreads are glooble and mcmc. He never thinks that anyone else is scum. He made good cases on both. Would Yuma make a full case on his partner that had real merit to it on D2?? It doesn't seem worth it to me.
D3
--response to glooble defense--
glooble and Yuma have a big back and forth discussion. I'm feeling like if Yuma is scum then he is MU. Another thing: if yuma is maquis then the nokill N4 is even more confusing, because he doesn't have a different night action to take like, say, maquis Jimmmmmm might. (jailkeep yuma.), unless he isn't a LR. I think he is a LR though, because that's a bad fakeclaim.
He later backs off glooble a bit and switches to Jimmmmm. He doesn't mention mcmc much, but defends his claim. When the glooble wagon materializes he switches back to glooble.
D4
I am a 1-shot Lightning Rod. I have not yet used my power because I think it is a negative utility to town. Yes it would prevent one less death at night, but thus far that would have been bad because we have had scum dying at night, but more importantly it would effectively cause both cop investigations to be nullified. I doubt I will be using it this game because of this... so it is a pretty weak power role. But joth did say that some roles would have a negative utility.
If he is scum that helps balance the third team. immideatly explains why he hasn't LRed yet.
o and I am Elim Garak?
Yuma, how does Elim Garak relate to being a lightning rod? I think Robz has answered this question already.... but I think all four of us should say why again. For me: Rom is a ferengi, and is a blood relative to quark and nog, who are raerae and munch respectively.
I talked to joth day 1 about LR. He said that the LR could be stopped from activating by a couple of roles that I asked specifically about--I won't say which ones specifically, but I will say that nothing that has been claimed is capable of stopping it.
I think you should tell us now yuma!
well if I can't get theorel on board, I'll go back to vote: dsell
This is soon after Robz votes dsell to put him as L-2. in the next post, 19minutes later, MU mcmc hammers. This isn't exactly a quickhammer because the day had been played out and some people were ready for a hammer. however, theorel still hadn't said definitively that yuma should LR (I think), and we had lots of time and things to discuss. scummy.....
D5
At first seems resigned that he is going to be lynched, but then argues against it (which is protown if he is town I guess).
well I will join our IC in voting vote: Robz
redirection. I'm not sure why I didn't consider Yuma more then. Maybe I just thought Robz could so easily be a JK, and at that point it made sense that there was just a MU left (because only theorel died).
It became clear soon that it was going to be mcmc or him. the thing to do with either allignment is to vote mcmc, so I don't think this is much of a defense.
D6
Nothing of importance today except these two:
Yuma has consistently throughout the entire game spelled "maquis" , "marquis" instead.
I noticed that, and had no idea what to make of it.
That is embarrassing... I thought it was "marquis" as in French for nobility. I really know nothing about star trek. What does maquis mean? It must mean something because Google Chrome doesn't even want to auto-correct it... Oh it is also French for "a member of a movement, specifically the one against Germany in WWII.
Again, I don't think he could fake this, or would fake this. He would be sure to slip and spell it right without thinking right? So the question is if he could not know how to spell his team name.
GUYS!!!!!!!! I made a horrible, horrible, horrible mistake.
Night4 I didn't use my LR because I didn't send in the PM to jotheonah. I did however send in a PM to jtotheonah, which I don't think he checks!!! I just noticed this as I was skimming through my sent posts to find another post for another game. So I believe I still have a 1-shot LR available to use.
Ugggg!!!!!!! I feel horrible. I mean that stupid mistake could easily cost us the game. (it would have prevented theorel's death, although I would be dead right now). I can't even tell you how mad I am right now!
8 minutes after his last post. It is very possible that he went and saw it, and wrote this post in that time span, but you could also say that he just made another post right after that because he was scum and faking. It did come at a very convienient time for him. I'm wondering though: how is it that he made this mistake? typo in typing in the name?
Theoretically he could also be lying as town. It would make sense. Either way he is willing to do anything to avoid being lynched, because he loses if he is lynched, regardless of alignment.
Summary: I think Yuma as maquis is very unlikely. Yuma as MU is probably the most likely scenario.
Robz:
D1
DOUBLE smileys? Vote: Galzria.
his first post he votes scum. Doesn't mean anything most likely. I hear robz doesn't normally RVS though...
Eevee's response is what I expected, and of course it could simply be the case that he used his typical "I'm town" format. Still, I'm highly suspicious him. It's incredulous to believe that he doesn't actually read his PMs carefully or remember his flavor name.
Suspicious of eevee early, like jimmmmm, but for a different reason.
15 players should be 4 scum, right? 2 + 2 or 3 +1. 2 + 3 would be yuck, but I guess it's possible, depending on roles.
Galz, yes I find Eevee scummy for like three reasons I gave. The Dsell thing, and aspects of his response, including something he said that I do judge to be false, that theorel also picked up on: him not knowing his role PM and the setup or whatever. It doesn't fit Eevee; I'm pretty sure he's lying about this to inflate his case for why he didn't say station. He could be lying to inflate his case for why he didn't say station from a position of town or scum, but obviously it seems a bit scummy to me.
I didn't really get his case on you, although I think you're being fairly dense here.
2+3 is yuck. So if robz is scum he probably thought there was a SK. More galz-robz interactions. says he doesn't get the eevee case on galz.
From jimmmmm's post. It seems like he has an important role that will save him from bieng lynched, or at least is planning on claiming to have an important role that will save him from bieng lynched.
I don't know if this counts as "outing" Jimm, but I think he phrased it in a way that makes it obvious to anyone paying attention, and un-obvious to new people like liopil. Scum almost certainly will figure it out if they haven't already. I believe Jimm is saying that he is Hated, which simply means it takes 1 less vote to kill him. In other words, he dies at L-1. Given that Joth mention there may be negative utility roles, this makes sense.
It means that all things being equal, scum are actually less likely to kill him in the night.
thinks Jimmmmm is hated, which is wrong. I thought it too based on this. He probably genuinely thought this though, and might be a reason that a scum!robz wouldn't kill Jimmmmm. otherwise scum might kill Jimmmmm because they thought he had a PR.
@Mcmc: There's no need to panic over like one vote. We vote and unvote like crazy. Sometimes multiple people get bajillions of votes. It's fine for Eevee to get a bunch of votes. If people vote for him and end this day too soon, we will accuse them of being scum and kill those people tomorrow.
Disclaimer for anyone who doesn't know: Mcmc is my IRL brother.
@Post count: My vote for Galzria was fake. I was surprised he hadn't responded to my accusation that he was being dense, but maybe he isn't around, and anyway I don't yet find him scummier than anyone else.
Vote: Eevee, my top scumread for now.
more interactions with mcmc and galzria. not sure what he means about "fake" vote on galzria. Says he doesn't have more of a scumread on him than anyone else, which sounds like disasociation. dunno what to make of what he said to mcmc.
Just checked the roster... invisyuma strikes again, as the saying goes.
I don't expect to hear from Glooble until like Day 4, probably.
Has sparky posted?
calls out two maquis for lurking. If MU it makes sense because his partners and him aren't lurking, so LALL works for him. doesn't make sense as maquis.
Time to pass out.
But maybe one drink more?
Oooh, choices....
Wait, wait... are you scum??
They actually talk to each other a LOT d1. I haven't included most of the times here.
Here is my case against Eevee.
What do you want me to say? I'm station-aligned. Kind of meh Dsell became almost obvtown because of something like this, but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in (well handled btw). Me claiming town was obviously just the running joke from blitz, also I didn't even remember what the exact wording was, not like I read my pm's that carefully. I still don't know what's my flavor name for example (because I've never seen any star trek so the name wouldn't mean anything to me).
I believe the bolded part is a lie, or at least an extreme exaggeration.
Although I must say, so many people are expressing opposition to the Eevee case and that can't all be scum, I am sort of ready to stop talking about it and look critically and someone else. I don't think it's rock-solid by any means. The "contradiction" thing is not much, no.
Doesn't want to talk about eevee anymore, like Jimmmmm. I guess they realized the lynch wasn't going to happen. could be interpreted as scummy.
Alright, just reread over everything, and I'm gonna put my Vote: Cuzz out there for now. He has posted almost exclusively about the setup and offered no actual reads. More than that though, his early vote on Eevee for "buddying" may have only been RVS - but given the controversy surrounding Eevee since, I would've expected either an unvote, or a statement of support for his vote that (at least to me) read like a joke when made. And it isn't like he hasn't been active (well, he's got 8 posts in total, but 2 are RVS, and the other 6 are all just stating what's in the setup).
I just feel that Cuzz, more than anybody else, has been trying to score easy "town" points by talking about the setup without actually talking about the game.
I think that's fair to say of Cuzz, and maybe worth a vote. But there are three people who have barely talked at all. And things are happening!
Agrees with galzria. It seems like more than half of his posts have some relation to galz...
I'm using a somewhat new approach to this game, which I am calling the Straightforward Strategy, or SFS (see what I did there?). My approach to this game, rather than going so strongly off of metas, is to look at two things: 1) Real evidence, and 2) What people are saying.
1) Real evidence -- Something like, Dsell's station-aligned thing with Eevee. I actually think Dsell gets more than a pinch of town cred here. I agree with Jimm that other than that, Dsell would actually seem pretty scummy for underposting, but this evidence is really, really acquitting, I think.
2) What people are saying -- if someone says something that is logical, that makes sense, that I think hits upon valid points and is relevant, I am going to think of that person as less scummy. This is a little bit of a change of pace for me. Usually, when someone says something anti-rational, irrelevant, and over the top, I think of them as less scummy, because scum need to be more careful. But this approach has not worked lately.
--talks about other stuff--
Galzria is registering a lot less than usual in this game, to me, and I do find that weird. And it irks me that his main goal so far seems to be to kill the wagon on Eevee, which I thought was certainly a valid wagon on the scummiest person. Perhaps Eevee would have been/will be a mislynch, but it reeks of scum trying to build towncred by killing wagon on townie. Of course I guess with the multiple scumteams thing, there's like an extra wrinkle in there. Still, since I think the Eevee case was solid-ish, I don't love that Galz worked to kill it.
I'm going to Vote: Cuzz, though, because he's now the person to whom I can't attribute anything. It's really hard to beat Glooble in that regard, and Cuzz is doing it. So.
the first bit about a new playstyle rings towny. second part sounds like he's trying to disassociate himself from galz after all that interaction before. he then proceeds to vote cuzz, which is sheeping galzria. Galz started that wagon.
If robz were maquis, would he want to kill galz N1?
Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player(said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
No no no. This is not the same thing. I waited for Eevee to respond--and warned others to do the same--because I didn't want anybody explaining what they thought Eevee meant. BEcause then Eevee could just copy that. After Eevee gave his statement, I enthusiastically gave my view of it, and asked others to do the same. So I think you're mixed up here in reading this as an anti-town thing to do.
I can't tell what mcmc think of robz in that post. is he saying robz is just playing town badly? Robz corrects him. I think mcmc's post, in light of him flipping scum, makes robz look bad.
Robz888: Also on the Eevee wagon. I think he's being a bit over-accusatory. Has been on the lurker's case a bit too much, as have others. At this point the lurkers have had good excuses. Talked about the setup a bunch too. Stuff with the number of mafia is interesting. I'm not as sure about 4 as he is. what about 4 with SK? or even 3-2? He would know more about this if he was scum. Alo would be more likely to talk about it.
oh hey, I had a scumread on robz888 way back then! I think I was the only one. I now disagree with most of the points I made there, except the one about talking about the setup.
Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
very interested in the scum-read on galz. He didn't miss it though, he mentioned it earlier. This is actually quite scummy.
Where is Eevee's scum-read on Galz? I missed that, or I don't remember it. Eevee, do you have a scum-read on Galz?
Well, like 5% higher scumscore than average. Certainly not seeming towny to me.
For me, my suspicion on Galz comes from two thing: 1) He's under-posting, 2) He threw water on the case I made against you.
But he's under-posting everywhere, and I think is just behind. On the other thing, I probably have to just shed my bias in favor of the case, perhaps, much as his reaction to it grated me.
So I guess I don't have much of a scumread on him, either. And I did follow him in voting Cuzz, actually.
again sort of says he's suspicious and then takes it back. mentioning the cuzz thing is towny though.
Oh, also Jimm now looks like he's trying to divert to Mcmc, who is not registering scum to me at all this game. He's my brother, and he did fool me in his first game, Blitz... but he is way more active here than he was there, and I know he has MORE IRL commitments right now, not less. I think that definitely gives him towncred. Also, the things he's said, they aren't like the most comprehensive opinions ever, but they do have meat. So again, points against Jimm.
townread on MU
Right now here's an update on where I'm at:
Town: Robz, Dsell
Strongly leaning town: Theorel
Slight leaning town: Mcmc, ashersky, TheMunch
Neutral: liopoil, yuma, shraeye
Slightly leaning scum: Cuzz, Galzria, Glooble, raerae
Strongly leaning scum: Jimm, Eevee
Puts galz at leaning scum. Every time Robz has made a point against galz he immediately negates it with a counterpoint. By doing this he can have a slight scumread on him to disassociate himself, but still not get him lynched. sounds like good scum strategy. mcmc is at slight town. interestingly the maquis are also split just on the two sides of neutral.
I think his interactions with mcmc/galz fit with him being MU, but not his interactions with glooble/munch for him being maquis. That's just so far though. The rest of the things he's said to other people really only read slightly scummy to me. this is just part of D1 though, so I wouldn't expect much else.
Time for a POST COUNT. Here is everyone, in order of total posts.
1/2. Jimmmmm 53
1/2. Robz 53
3. Eevee 44
4. ashersky 41
5. Raerae 34
6. Galzria 32
7. Cuzz 30
8. yuma 22
9. Shraeye 21
10. mcmcsalot 20
11/12. Dsell 13
11/12. Glooble 13
13. sparky/themunch 12
14/15. liopoil 9
14/15. theorel 9
The average number of posts per player is 27.
Robz makes a post count which puts him is a good light. Interestingly it does the same for his top two scum reads. I think this highlights that he was trying to get the top two non-robz contributers lynched, which is scummy.
My two biggest suspects are two of the top three posters (and the other is me). That worries me, since in a vacuum, scum aligned players write fewer posts than town-aligned players. However, people who come under suspicion end up posting more than others.
...but then there was this.
I actually think each person needs to be evaluated critically in this regard, and not on a flat scale.
I don't know much about liopoil, so I don't know what "normal" is for him. But for Theorel, that is pretty spot on. Very few posts, tons of content in each.
For the Glooble's and Yuma's, they are actually just higher than I normally look, so I wouldn't consider them "lurking" to their own standard.
And this is the point I made about myself earlier. I HAVE been underposting. Yesterday because I was RL gaming, today because I've been swamped catching up here. My overall numbers might still be above average - but I'll be the first to admit that against my own standards of posting, yes, I am in fact "lurking".
Looking at that list, in all honesty, I think everybody is contributing at or above their normal levels. I see no real lurkers (besides myself) listed.
Towniest. Post. Ever.
I do also agree with this. The flow of this game has been pretty much spot on.
Is either agreeing with galz, or agreeing that the post was the towniest ever.
I sort of feel like I'll end up claiming today with a good probability. Should I do it earlier to give us/you more time to react? Obviously not commenting on what I think your reaction to my claim will be.
No, don't. No reason to.
Doesn't want eevee to claim. Pro-town. He has started to be more towny, apart from interactions w/galzria. If I didn't know about anything about what happened after D1 I would probably have a null read on robz, maybe even town read.
Robz, I've laid out on multiple occasions detailed analysis of exactly the points that I believe indicate Eevee is town. Yet you continue to persecute him. You've known and played with Eevee as long as I have. What do you think makes my read wrong, and yours right?
I'm not persecuting him. Believe me, I would much rather have him be town. But I can't ignore the fact that I don't believe he actually doesn't know the contents of his role PM, that the Dsell incident makes him slightly more likely to be scum, that his immediate behavior did not scream town as it usually does, and that very recently he made an abrupt shift to his typical town persona after giving an extremely accurate description of exactly what that persona is.
I also find it weird that two players--one of whom had previously suspected him--declared that they would not vote for him. It's weird, and none of the three of them come out looking good. I'd pretty sure some scum, somewhere, is trying to kill the Eevee lynch, possibly to gain his favor.
this also reads town, and doesn't really match with galz being robz's partner as much.
I mean the big thing holding me back on you (and Eevee) is your high post counts.
He said similar things about his top suspects being top contributers. I thought this was towny for pointing this out to everyone, which it is. but then I realized that he could also be emphasizing the importance on contribution because he is also at the top of the post counts.
To me, Mcmc isn't giving off any of the slightly obvious scumtells that he gave off in Blitz9 (at the time, I thought they were too obvious to be scummy--I know, I know, obvious play is obvious, I suck). So I actually see him as playing one sort of game his first time around, as scum, and now to me at least his play looks much different.
I mean, I caught him saying all sorts of things like "I don't want to seem like I'm doing X" in Blitz9, which I said (I did say it in that thread) were scumtells. Of course he could simply be improving as scum, or his partners telling him not to say those things (and I guess I sort of told him not to say those things in Blitz9), but in a vacuum at least his play is believably different.
Additionally, he's answering questions, giving reads, posting, etc. No, I think those things would be hard for him to do--perhaps triggering the sort of cluelessness Jimm is talking about--if he were scum, Galzria's points about M-III notwithstanding.
Defends mcmc. From my perspective I was scum with him in newbie mafia and I think his play here was somewhat similar to his play in newbie mafia, so I don't agree with the meta argument. also robz has said he wouldn't be using meta arguments as much this game.
@Galz, while it seems to me that we've been reading this really differently, too, if your top 4 are Mcmc, Jimm, shraeye, and Cuzz... we aren't so different after all. I'm unpersuaded on Mcmc, in the middle on shraeye, suspicious of Jimm, and if this defensive thing turns out be accurate, also suspicious of Cuzz.
The big thing we disagree on is Eevee. (Because I'm trying to read him, whereas you are trying to buddy him for auto-towncred in his eyes. Don't even try to deny it.)
He's responding to a big post by galz. interestingly galz lists mcmc in his would-lynch thing. Anyway, they seem to disagree a fair bit, especially on eevee. Robz being a partner with galz+mcmc doesn't seem so fitting anymore.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
If mcmc is his partner him "glossing" over it makes sense. Sounds like he wants to get on the wagon early. Could also be interpreted as towny. Worth note at least.
Glooble is scummy and not super helpful but his defense was really genuine so I actually do think he's town, strangely enough. So, big townread there for now. Jimm is in the townzone for doing so much hard work, and at this stage of the game, I have to take that as indication of a town player. Galzria is on the scummier side for being like a complete non-factor this day. Mcmcsalot looks worse as the day goes on, but he wouldn't be my top choice. I think I have to trust my initial read on him for now.
Still only slight scumreads on the two MU, which is the safest position for him if he's scum. wrong about glooble. Seems like he flipped sides on Jimmmmm.
And yet...Cuzz is still unlynchable.
No he's not.
Vote: Cuzz
this is essentially the hammer, because ash stated intent to hammer as soon as he was at L-1, for whatever reason. Robz doesn't really explain this, but it was probably just to get a lynch through. Galz is also on-wagon, mcmc is not. munch munch and glooble are too. robz was also on the shraeye quickwagon.
I am going to pay more attention to his interactions with munch/glooble, because Yuma asked me to and not much will come from his interactions with mcmc once robz has claimed.
D2
This is very frustrating, I did not announce intent post twice and go to bed. I announced intent, came back a few hours later expecting to find at most one page of new things, an answer to the question that had still been out there and I would hammer. I instead came back to 6 pages and a mini wagon on a second player, i believe cuzz was not even a L-1 anymore(will check this when im not on movile)So I decided wow maybe lynching cuzz isn't the right idea anymore, I couldn't put my vote down untill I read the 6 new pages which I was not planning on nor wanted to do 7 hours before waking up for class, so I went to bed. Again expecting to wake up to a few more posts, I would read everything and post my thoughts which would have included a vote for cuzz. Instead I once agai woke up to a surprise, thread was locked and cuzz had been hammered.
In summary please stop saying I posted and went to bed as though I didn't care about the cuzz lynch, the game exploded in the few hours I was gone, this is not a blitz game and we were not at deadline.
Does anyone dispute that this is a perfectly satisfactory answer? At least for Mcmc's hammer not coming... I mean, he's exactly right here the timeframe of it, because I was very active that day and I was around when he said he would hammer and I was still around late at night when he reappeared in the middle of shraeye's mini-wagon. He couldn't even hammer then, since Cuzz wasn't L-1. It was really late at night, I don't think he had a responsibility to stay on and wait it out or even contribute, we weren't at deadline.
He defended mcmc a fair bit D2 before he claimed, which I guess supports his claim being true. He said he had a reason to think shraeye was scum but wasn't going to say it yet. I can't find where he says it. He also talks about munch a fair bit.
Okay, I do think the Mcmc lynch is a mistake. I am a 1-shot Tracker. Last night, I tracked mcmcsalot. He took no action. I think this makes him significantly less likely to be scum, given what we know already.
FWIW, I have some (disastrous) experience as a Tracker (in M-XII, where I epic fail at it), but I still think my psychology for picking who to track was pretty much on in that game, so I stuck with it. I don't want to track the obvious people, because the obvious people aren't going to kill anyone (because they expect the tracker to be watching them). This is mafia 101, even in games without a tracker for some reason the less suspicious partner does the kill (Galz always did the kill in M-II; I was more suspicious, even though it didn't matter). So I was not going to track the people who came under heavy suspicion yesterday, which includes shraeye, Jimm, and Eevee basically. I was never going to track Galzria because he's just too obvious a person anyway, and there's always that likelihood he gets nightkilled just for being Galzria--which I bet is what happened here; I doubt a scum faction really thought they were shooting scum in Galz. So I wanted to pick someone who I thought could be scum, but who didn't know that I thought they could be scum. Like, Glooble and Dsell I really didn't think were scum, so I wasn't picking them. Also, just from what I know about my brother, he's like a really gung-ho guy (he posted his phone number in blitz whatever for goodness sake, so people could tell him when the lynch was happening), and it seemed reasonable if he was on a scumfaction he'd be likely to be the one taking the shot, just because he wanted to, in addition to everything else.
Well, he didn't do anything. I've thought about this a lot; this means he's probably not scum, right? If he were scum, and he were on Galzria's team, well, Galz is the rolecop, and it's pretty likely Galz can't take the shot AND rolecop someone, so unless it's a three person team, Mcmc takes the shot there. If Mcmc were SK, he has to take the shot. Of course there's a perfectly plausible scenario where Mcmc is on some other team, and for whatever reason was not the person who took the shot.
But anyway, I think we'd have to be PRETTY SURE to lynch him, since mathematically it seems to me like his odds of scum are much, much lower, right? I wouldn't bring this up if I thought it was a slamdunk case, but it's not a slamdunk case and from where I am standing it is the least likely lynch to hit scum.
claim post! midway through D2. re-reading it, it sounds genuine to me, as have his most of his posts D6. I really can't find much more to analyze in this post, but you should all read it carefully to decide if you think it is a real claim.
vote: ashersky
For this:
I will not put my name to a shraeye lynch. It feels too reactive and way too obvious. I really don't think scum shraeye would be so sure of himself as he pushed for a lynch. When you drive a wagon as hard as that, you're taking a huge risk that the heat is going to fall on you if you're wrong, and that's a risk town is much more likely to take than scum. It just doesn't add up for me.
This reasoning is good. We should push for a separate lynch and see where we go. Mcmc is the most likely candidate, with I think everyone but Robz supporting or okay with it.
vote: mcmcsalot
Agreeing with Glooble that I'm not being like scumshraeye.
Then immediately reverting to me, because I'm the most likely candidate.
unvote based on Robz's new info.
Back to vote: shraeye as our most likely candidate, our most informative flip, and my second highest scum read (after Eevee, who no one seems to want to lynch).
Woah, this is a huge contradiction, Glooble.
I don't see the contradiction here, but still, either bussing, or not maquis. (duh)
Oops, nevermind. I read Glooble as saying he opposed shraeye lynch, and then later saying shraeye was his second choice... but the second statement was ash. Forget it!
could he have done that on purpose? Could be he decided to bus, then realized his bussing was wrong...
Yeah. It's just going to be Eevee or no one, now.
(Of course I can see it: "You've lynched Eevee, the Town-Doctor/Jailkeeper/Vigilante/Neighborizer.")
Well, there's nothing else to do, and he is a scumread.
Vote: Eevee
This feels weird, I guess I almost never actually cast hammer votes. Well anyway, here we go.
Hammers eevee. He had said he was willing to do this for quite some time. However, he was also not against a shraeye, liopoil, or munch lynch. If he's MU of course he's okay with those lynches. If he's maquis then he included munch to distance himself from him, since munch wasn't going to be lynched. Overall I think this is a scummy post.
His body is found stuffed into an ore processing shaft with a phaser wound in his back. The autopsy finds he was also poisoned, strangely.
The good news, though, is no one else died last night. The bad news is that shraeye was killed. He was Jake Sisko, Station-aligned Innocent Child.
phasered and poisoned. I think he was almost certainly doublekilled, which means all five scum were okay with shraeye dying. robz on either team had a scumread of sorts on shraeye, so killing shraeye does make sense. Glooble might have blocked the MU kill I guess...
D3
To me, this just feels like m-xvi, where all my reads were wrong, day after day after day.
A lot of people have read this as scummy, namely Yuma I think. But really, he has had bad reads. eevee, cuzz, shraeye, mcmc to name a few, and of course he was absolutely certain I was scum. these reads seem to be a little bit TOO blatantly wrong for him to be scum. Also I especially think he can't be maquis, because if he was maquis he knew I was town as soon as theorel claimed.
I feel like waving some of my reads. Munch specifically. With shraeye being town, I don't think it's fair to munch that I keep to the evidence that points to him next. I've just been very wrong.
Ashersky and Glooble, I may have gone too far toward saying they are definitely town. I still think they are town though.
Mcmc is a night evidence based read, so that would remains for now.
states not-suspicion on the three people who were alive then that we know are scum. But he has good reason for the mcmc read.
Still would lynch Ashersky but Vote: Robz. I have very particular people I'm interested in whether or not they will jump on this case.
Ridiculous. I have repeatedly asked you why you are suspicious of me--you keep alluding to evidence without actually presenting it, and I keep asking you to be explicit, and you keep ignoring me.
Other people are raising issues about me that I think have merit. I don't know what you're doing.
I'm confused as to what munch is doing as well. he's a neighbor!
So... ultimately, I am really torn between the two of them. They are neck and neck, though for totally different reasons. I guess I do ultimately lean Vote: Glooble. His contributions are less than liopoil's, and they lessen as time goes on.
Doesn't necessarily need to do this if he is glooble's partner. If he kept his vote on me I might have been lynched. Nothing has really fit with robz being maquis anyway.
--mcmc bomb claim--
Uh, I think you're logic there is off, and you claiming was not a good idea. Because scum are going to kill someone, and of all the people they could kill, it's best if they kill you. Imagine if both scum teams shot you: two dead scum! Now they'll just kill someone else instead.
I understand the instinct for survival, but that was probably a huge mistake.
Nevertheless, I believe your claim.
I agree that claiming was bad for town. It was good for scum!mcmc though, and I think I pointed this out at the time. I don't think mcmcpartner!robz points this out.
D4
The only conf. scum left is mcmc.
Did a breezy read-through of Galz to try and figure out who is his partner.
Galz defended Jimm early.
Said nobody was really lurking.
Said mcmc was slightly scummy.
Late in Day 1, said the four scummiest people were mcmc, jimm, shraeye, and cuzz. He ended up voting for Cuzz.
Says Theorel is town, and reiterates scum reads on jimm and mcmcsalot.
That's everything from him.
I also looked to see who voted for him, and not one person ever did (except me, jokingly, in RVS).
The part I bolded is I think maybe a big clue, because half those people are dead town. Now, does Galz put his scummate in this group? I'd think he might. Jimm or mcmc. He mentions that pair again, too. There's a case to be made that one of these people would be his partner. Since I don't think it's mcmc because of the tracking, that would make me think of Jimm as a top suspect to be Galz's partner.
Of course, it could just be that Galz exempted his partner from placement on his own suspicion list.
This sounds like a town post to me. He was right about the Jimmmmm-mcmc thing. We really should have seen this and lynched mcmc D4 instead of Dsell. I mean, I was probably a better lynch than Dsell...
We have <Robz, yuma, Jimm, mcmcsalot, Dsell> where exactly 1 or 2 of those people are scum.
We have <liopoil> where exactly 1 of liopoil is scum.
Liopoil is scum. I guarantee it, 99%.
silly robz. This again points to him not being maquis because he would know that I am town. That combined with the tracker result claim makes me fairly confident that if he is scum, he is MU.
D5
Vote: mcmcsalot
Hammers mcmc. this was the main reason I had for suspecting robz. I thought it was likely a last minute bus-hammer. I also think that day might have been too short. A ton of the stuff we are discussing today should have been discussed then. I thought this vote was a bit of a 180, but he had mentioned several times that he thinks at this point that he thinks his tracker result doesn't hold as much weight anymore. Really, I don't actually see any really strong reason for suspecting Robz.
Nothing significant has happened regarding Robz being scum D6, but his posts have read townier today then before, just on vibes.
So, after the mcmc flip I was actually fairly sure it was robz. Now I'm not really seeing it as much. I feel it's probably Yuma now, but I really never have given him a very close look. Hopefully will get to reading him soon.
Jimmmmm:
This may be true in general but I just want to emphasize this now: do not lynch me without giving me a chance to claim. If at any point in the game you want to put me on even L - 1, instead, announce your intent to do so and at my next availability I will claim. I will be pissed if you lynch me while I'm away.
his second post of the game. If Jimmmmm isn't beloved then he was planning that from the very beginning, for some odd reason.
Also, FWIW, the "Don't put me on L - 1" thing was just a safety net. Just don't lynch me before I've claimed.
Sort of denies being hated. Further evidence he knows exactly what he is going to claim. I really think he has to be beloved.
I also agree with Robz that it seems a bit strange that you wouldn't remember what the wording was. For me, at least, I saw "Station-Aligned", and it took me a moment to realise that couldn't mean anything other than the equivalent to Town. I even checked the OP to see if it was there, and there were enough "station"s to make it obvious that Station meant Town. If the PM said "You're Town (which btw we're calling Station-Aligned)" then you could just see the Town and move on, but because Town wasn't mentioned, you had to see Station-Aligned and interpret that as Town, which I feel makes it harder to forget at least the Station part.
Two ways to read this. Town sympathizing with eevee, or scum trying very hard to get towncred by making up a whole story.
Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.
Pro-town. If he is scum-beloved then I think Jimmmmm WANTS to claim, because it make him less likely to be lynched. Does it make him more likely to be NKed?
but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in
Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.
These statements seem to be a contradiction.
The beginning of the whole contradiction case thing. It's a nice catch, while incorrect. Not sure if it's scummy or not.
His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me.
If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.
The interesting thing here is that he is responding to GLOOBLE, who, if Jimmmmm is scum, is his teammate. He actually has a lot of interactions with glooble and munch D1, which Yuma highlighted earlier. They seem to be casting quite a bit of suspicion on each other for D1. D1 there was 15 people, it was chaotic. Bussing seems like a bad idea, because nobody is going to notice anything when there are 15 people.
You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.
Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.
If jimmmmm is scum he NKed galz N1. does this post fit?
I just thought of something. What if eevee vigged galzria?? he had a scumread on him the whole way. I think it's possible.
Re-read Glooble as promised. There's really not much there. Does anyone have any thoughts other than LALL and "This could be scum Glooble (but it could also be Town Glooble)"? The one thing that stood out to me was this:
I'm endeavoring not to post completely contentlessly. If I have an observation I think is helpful to the town. If I don't, then I'm just making noise. In other words, if possible I'd like to actually help fond scum, but barring that ill settle for not making a lot of distracting noise.
I think if he's Town, then this is going about things the wrong way. Instead of "I don't have many good thoughts, so I'll help Town by staying quiet," it should be "I'm going to come up with as many good, helpful thoughts as I can and post those."
On the other hand, if he's scum, this seems like it could be a way to excuse his lurking.
For now, I'm happy to Vote: Glooble to try to get some helpful thoughts out of him.
Again, seems a bit harsh for D1, when there as actually a fair chance of us lynching glooble.
Holy crap. Cuzz is offline. He was in this thread, and now he's gone.
Announcing intent to hammer in ~10 mins if Cuzz hasn't posted by then.
10 minutes later cuzz hadn't posted and Jimmmmm never hammered. Mcmc did something similar and he was scum.
One more note: everyone in this game has exactly one role, except for Jimmmmm. He claimed last, so he knew this. If he is scum, there is no way he has two roles. This is because he would be maquis. Maquis would have three members, as opposed to only two on the MU. Joth would not give someone on the team with more members an additional role to balance the game. Therefore he has only one role, and it seems more than likely that this role is beloved. If he is beloved he isn't a roleblocker, and so Yuma must be scum. They can't both be scum, therefore Jimmm is town.
There are a lot of assumptions in the above note, but it seems strong. Many of the posts I quoted read towny to me too. So I have a townread on Jimmmmm.
I get the case on Glooble, and I think it has merit, especially considering we've been lynching more vocal players, and they end up being Town. Glooble has played a fairly "safe" game, although has started contributing more reads. I guess I would put Glooble down as slightly scummy for now, and keep my eye on him.
this one actually fits with him being maquis.
I re-read Glooble, and as much as I wanted him to be scummy so that I could feel good about supporting the lynch of someone who's not me, I just didn't. His lurking seems like genuine busyness (although I could be more sympathetic than most to that given how little time I've seemed to have to play Mafia lately), and when he has been posting, he just read like a Townie who wants to contribute but is a little lost at times from being a bit behind. And unless there's something I missed, I haven't found any of the arguments on him terribly convincing either. So while I'd obviously prefer his lynch than mine, he doesn't look like a great candidate to me.
But we obviously need to decide on someone before deadline, preferably before a soft deadline. So I don't know. I think I should take a closer look at yuma and Munch.
This one fits too. although, he mentions munch at the end...
Okay, I re-read lio for an alternative to Glooble. While he hasn't said anything in particular to make me think he's scum, he seems to have played a very safe game, not putting himself out there terribly much. Seeing as though the loud talkers all seem to be flipping Town, it seems likely that there is scum in this game who is trying not to be controversial. So while there's no one in particular who I think has a very high chance of being scum, I will Vote: liopoil since I think he has more chance of flipping scum than Glooble.
Of course, I'd rather lynch Glooble than no one, so if they're our only choices I'd be willing to hammer.
and this one. Interesting. I mean, I'm town but my interactions fit with glooble/munch too.
I think I see the lio/Glooble argument. When I have time I'll have to go back and have another look. However I'm not sure I like the assumption that one of me and lio must be scum. From my point of view, that's pretty close to betting the game on lio being scum.
I think no one else should claim until theo gets back to lead it.
Sorry for the delay, just got home from work. I logged on a couple of times to see what was happening, but didn't get time to post.
I am a Beloved Princess.
checks PM
I am Vadek Bareil Antos, so I guess that makes me a Beloved Alien Man-Princess. That means that if I am mislynched, the Bajorans on the Station, whoever they are, will spend the next day mourning for me, which will shut down the Station and skip a Day. For some reason those bastards don't care if I'm killed during the night.
I realise this could be seen as an aggressive scum claim - "I dare you to lynch me!" - and for most of the time between getting my PM and starting day 1 I was planning to claim almost immediately so it didn't appear to be a desperate attempt to save myself. But I realised that would make me a target for Vigs and not a target for scum, so I said what I said to try to reverse that and maybe draw a scum kill. I guess they're too smart for me though, because here I am.
PPE: ^I went to post this at about 4pm but then discovered my internet was no longer working, then a friend came over to play Dominion, then I went out and I'm finally home and it's past midnight. So again, sorry for the delay.
Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
If Jimmmmm had any shots left I think he wouldn't have just added it on as an afterthought. When Jimmmmm softclaimed it D1 for all he knew there might be a real BP (if he was going to fakeclaim). For some reason I'm just feel like his claim is legit. If he is BP then he is town.
He has a bunch of analysis of a glooble-munch-liopoil team. He doesn't actually really support it, which would make sense as maquis because he knew I would flip town. Nothing he says in that analysis really points me in either direction in terms of him being partners with them though.
I think I did all the quoting right. Anyway, I'm going to read this huge post now. I feel like I've forgotten a lot of the stuff about Jimmmmm though and should take another look at him.
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Well maybe, but remember that if I'm scum, I'm really stupid.
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Well maybe, but remember that if I'm scum, I'm really stupid.
As long as we're making statements like this, remember that if I'm the last scum, I purposely eschewed winning easily in favor of maybe winning using a line of argument that was going to be open to the obvious criticism of "well, you did that so you could say that."
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Robz, I really doubt that you would have won easily. Jimmmmm's point about only one person dying D4 is really quite good.
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Robz, I really doubt that you would have won easily. Jimmmmm's point about only one person dying D4 is really quite good.
I would have had a much easier time of it than this.
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Well maybe, but remember that if I'm scum, I'm really stupid.
As long as we're making statements like this, remember that if I'm the last scum, I purposely eschewed winning easily in favor of maybe winning using a line of argument that was going to be open to the obvious criticism of "well, you did that so you could say that."
You keep saying that but it just isn't true. And we haven't even brought up a point that I just realized in that ash had a town read on you before mcmc's alignment was known. We don't know what his read on you would have been after obtaining this knowledge. In all likelyhood it would have caused him to find you more scummy since it has done that to everyone else. This idea that you just would have coasted to victory is based off prior information w/o taking into consideration new events and is purely speculative. But it is what you keep coming back to again and again.
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So I have finally had a bit of a chance to go back and look at how my not LRing affects things a bit more in depth.
The big thing as others have mentioned is that this means that there doesn't have to be a RB/JK of sorts. I guess there still could be, but there doesn't have to be.
For each player this means the following:
lio - for him to be scum he no longer has to be a Neighbor/Godfather/Jailkeeper. He just has to be a Neighbor/Godfather. I still find this very unlikely, but a little more likely than before. But not much.
Jimmmmmm - For Jimmmmmm to be scum he has to be Marquis. Before for him to be scum he would have had to either fakeclaimed the BP or have been given a JK/RB role instead of the doctoring role and lied about it. Now for him to be scum he can still just be a BP/Doc. Again, I find this a little more likely, but not as likely as the below scenario.
Robz - Before for Robz to be scum as Maquis he would have had to do something that I found rather implausible... He would have had to have been a JK/RB that lied about being a tracker. Which is risky as it could have been counter claimed by someone with a tracking role day2 and risky because he wouldn't know as a RB/JK that mcmc hadn't targeted anyone... unless he had RB/JK mcmc. But in our current scenario Robz would not need to be a RB/JK and could just be a plain tracker like he said. He could have tracked mcmc in hopes that he was a cop and saw that he didn't target anyone (this would require Galz to have performed the NK, so there is a slight hangup) and decided that it would be worthwhile to gain some town cred by preventing a lynch and claiming a 1-shot role (that is now used up) to prevent being NKed.
And to continue along these lines Robz being MU I think is just as likely in our current situation. Before Robz would have to be a RB/JK that would have known that mcmc hadn't targeted anyone... or lied about mcmc not targeting anyone and lied about being a tracker in an attempt to save his partner. Now Robz could still be a 1-shot tracker who targeted someone, probably unsuccessfully as the Nk for both teams the next night was shraeye, and lied about tracking mcmc to save his partner from a lynch.
So summary, I think this new information makes everyone seem a little more scummy from my perspective, the least being lio. I think the new info affects Jimmmm and Robz equally, but still results in me thinking that Robz is the most likely to be scum.
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hey wait, if I can be scum, why can't Jimmmmmm be a godfather MU???
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hey wait, if I can be scum, why can't Jimmmmmm be a godfather MU???
I don't think anyone is saying he can't be. Is it likely? Just as likely as you being a Godfather I think... by which I mean, not very likely at all.
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the second one is more likely of course. But that is not the only thing. for instance:
Who is more likely to kill ashersky N5? MU robz or MU yuma? and the answer is MU yuma.
this seems like a crucial point for you, one significant enough for you to overlook the very obvious play of preventing the lynch of a confirmed scum! But I guess my question is why am I more likely to kill ashersky N5? Is it because Robz keeps saying that he would coast to a victory as scum if he hadn't killed ash? Because I feel like both Jimmmm and I have documented a scenario--that correlates with our scenario in which he is mcmc's partner and saved him day2--in which it was favorable for Robz to kill asherksy, which I don't feel like you have ever responded to.
Here is another point that I don't think has been analyzed. Who do you think ashersky was most likely to investigate last night? There are three options... 1. Jimmmm--with the intent of either finding scum or making him an IC. 2. Robz--but not because of the mcmc thing but because ash is a Maquis cop and can't look for robz to be MU. 3. yuma--who ash was voting for the day before. I would wager that in this scenario ash would most likely investigate yuma. Do you agree?
So in this scenario MU!yuma doesn't want to NK ashersky because ash will likely investigate MU!yuma and give him 1/2 IC status.
If you disagree and think ash was more likely to investigate either Robz or Jimmmm then I suppose this last point is a bit moot.
Does that make sense?
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hey wait, if I can be scum, why can't Jimmmmmm be a godfather MU???
He can be, but you're more likely. Why? Because you fit being maquis better than jimm or yuma fit belonging to either team, when we ignore investigation. I really was 90% convinced you were partners with munch and glooble, and for good reason.
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Well, it's time to get a move on.
Okay, my best guess as to what's going on is that yuma is lying. This beats out--by not a huge margin--godfather liopoil.
The big thing is, yuma claims to have made two big errors that I don't actually think we're genuine. The maquis/marquis thing is actually the less believable error, in my opinion. I've been playing mafia with yuma since Mafia III. You guys are aware, right, that he was voted Best Scum 2012 for his previous games? He won that award. He plays scum well, guys. The maquis/marquis mistake, is I think a deliberate one, to make it look like there's no way he could be scum. I don't think it's a mistake yuma would actually make. He's a smart guy. I've never seen him play carelessly before.
The PM to Jo thing, that could be error. And it actually could have been an error even if he was scum--he could have been banking on Jimm's doctor shot covering the other scum kill, which is why he was just going to LR, not shoot. Or, it's a convenient excuse to explain why there was no LR, creating paranoia about blockers, and he didn't kill because he didn't want to tip the town that both scum teams were still around. Or he's MU and both teams weren't around and they did shoot. I don't really know.
The point is, yuma is a great scum, and for him to be town here, he committed two mistakes, one of which i seriously doubt he would make, the other maybe maybe not, but doesn't disprove him as scum either way. I can't exactly figure out what he did to try and game us, but again, I remind you that he is Best Scum 2012.
So, it's time for Vote: Yuma. If you guys decide to lynch me instead, I won't necessarily blame you, there is a conventional line of arguing that points to me. And scum yuma will get another win.
If it's someone other than yuma, I won't feel very responsible, since all the non-yuma players have encouraged us to make it a Robz vs. yuma thing, which I do think is a little suspect, but what do we do now?
We can no lynch if you guys want, but I think yuma's LR claim and the ensuing discussion made it pretty pointless to do so.
If I've failed to persuade you, please allow me to make a final plea for why it's not me before you hammer me. A lot of people are counting on us not to screw it up, so I think that's more than fair.
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In case my vote is buried, I will again, Vote: yuma. I don't know how much access I will have for the rest of the day...
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seriously!!! You are voting me over not knowing that Maquis is actually Marquis? Look at them side by side. They are so similar! I honestly thought the name was Marquis. It is French for nobility right? So I thought that the Marquis were some sort of noble class in this star trek universe--I know nothing about star trek.
And to argue that it is some sort of devious plot thought up from the very beginning...? I guess I just don't think it is that smart of a scum plan in the first place. Because once someone notices it it attracts attention to that player, which is exactly what scum wants to avoid. This sounds way more like a conspiracy plot then anything else.
But if that is your interpretation, so be it. I guess this means that you think I am Maquis scum then?
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and I would argue that scum would not play carelessly... That is scum would be very careful to not make mistakes... like I said before mistakes bring in attention. scum doesn't want attention, they want to be very far from the spotlight--I think that is why people think I am good at being scum. But I have done the opposite here... If I could compare myself to any other game it would be MXI--where you were the mod--and I was much more loose and open and MXV where I did play pretty carelessly... I derphammered twice in that game (fortunately both times were on scum) and in both those games I was town.
I can't even believe I am arguing abou this...
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I don't know, man. Obviously you COULD be either. As I've said repeatedly, you're not a great fit for either, and neither is Jimm, and liopoil is but only for maquis, which he is cleared of being.
The big thing is, I don't believe you usually make mistakes, as you've claimed to have done here.
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and I would argue that scum would not play carelessly... That is scum would be very careful to not make mistakes... like I said before mistakes bring in attention. scum doesn't want attention, they want to be very far from the spotlight--I think that is why people think I am good at being scum. But I have done the opposite here... If I could compare myself to any other game it would be MXI--where you were the mod--and I was much more loose and open and MXV where I did play pretty carelessly... I derphammered twice in that game (fortunately both times were on scum) and in both those games I was town.
I can't even believe I am arguing abou this...
But I would argue you do NOT play carelessly. Your careless here is not careless, it's calculated. Again, I would bet $0 on this turning out correct, but it's the best I have to go on. Nobody fits anybody being scum really.
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and I would argue that scum would not play carelessly... That is scum would be very careful to not make mistakes... like I said before mistakes bring in attention. scum doesn't want attention, they want to be very far from the spotlight--I think that is why people think I am good at being scum. But I have done the opposite here... If I could compare myself to any other game it would be MXI--where you were the mod--and I was much more loose and open and MXV where I did play pretty carelessly... I derphammered twice in that game (fortunately both times were on scum) and in both those games I was town.
I can't even believe I am arguing abou this...
But I would argue you do NOT play carelessly. Your careless here is not careless, it's calculated. Again, I would bet $0 on this turning out correct, but it's the best I have to go on. Nobody fits anybody being scum really.
false... you fit being scum pretty darn well, but you can't vote for yourself. so you have to invent reason to vote for me above the others... vote: robz
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and I would argue that scum would not play carelessly... That is scum would be very careful to not make mistakes... like I said before mistakes bring in attention. scum doesn't want attention, they want to be very far from the spotlight--I think that is why people think I am good at being scum. But I have done the opposite here... If I could compare myself to any other game it would be MXI--where you were the mod--and I was much more loose and open and MXV where I did play pretty carelessly... I derphammered twice in that game (fortunately both times were on scum) and in both those games I was town.
I can't even believe I am arguing abou this...
But I would argue you do NOT play carelessly. Your careless here is not careless, it's calculated. Again, I would bet $0 on this turning out correct, but it's the best I have to go on. Nobody fits anybody being scum really.
false... you fit being scum pretty darn well, but you can't vote for yourself. so you have to invent reason to vote for me above the others... vote: robz
I understand where that's coming from. I don't blame people for suspecting me. Nonetheless, if I get lynched, the town will lose, and I really don't want to lose.
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Gul Dukat shows up on the station, having heard that the Cardassians could probably take it back with little to no resistance. BUt when he steps through the airlock, the place is such a dump he decides it's not worth it.
Vote Count 6.3
yuma (1): Robz888
Robz888 (1): yuma
Not Voting (2): liopoil, Jimmmmm
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is March 4th at 8 am, forum time.
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Man, you're both really good scum players, and I don't want scum either of you to win. It doesn't make that much sense for either of you to be scum, but one of you has to be.
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FYI, you deadline out in 46 hours.
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no lynching is bad we decided right? the only way it can make a difference is if it helps scum, that's what we decided right?
So, are we ready for jimmmmm and I to go ahead and vote?
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well, I'm ready.
Vote: Yuma
scum!Jimmmmm wins, if he exists.
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...
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;D
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I feel like you aren't even acknowledging my posts.
lio do you honestly think that it would be a good strategy... and one that I would do as MU.... to try and lynch my only remaining partner day2 after having galz night killed? Because if you do, you are completely crazy.
That is such an unsustainable plan. All it would take is 1 investigation, 1 NK, 1 lynch and the game would be lost.
I don't understand how you can imploy this logic.
But whatever, we lose the game. Probably Robz wins it.
I wash my hands of this... This is on you. Completely on you.
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;D
go get night killed or something! I am done with you.
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I don't think you were actually trying to get mcmc lynched.
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bullshit!
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I don't think you were actually trying to get mcmc lynched.
go back and reread the day then.
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or do I have to do it for you?
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I'm very sorry if robz is the scum and we lose. If Jimmmmm is the scum we probably were dead anyway.
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okay, fine. Unvote 'till then
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just unvote for 5 minutes to see if I can show you that you are wrong.
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thnxs
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I mean, I think you are more likely to be MU than Maquis, but like robz says, that is very possible as well. Robz being maquis is very unlikely.
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going to check D2 Yuma-mcmc interactions.
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looks to me like you make that big post on him earlyish D2, respond to mcmc's defense a couple times, but then drop it for the rest of the day. It doesn't make sense, but it makes a ton of other things make sense.
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Day2 yuma:mcmc
First post of the day:
But I have a kind of a hard time finding scum there... Jimmmm to an extent, along with mcmc--both were kinda pseudo-on the wagon or at least expressed willingness to be on the wagon. Dsell-no, me-no. theorel is just hard to read, no? Eevee I want to read as town.
so... galz was scum right....? I am thinking doing a reread on him might clue us into potential scum partners. Now, I have been scum with galz before (ZM1)--and I think that others who have been scum with galz should add their own bit as well--but one thing I remember about him, and I think I shared this in another game, was that Galz is fully ready and willing to buss as mafia. He said to me in the quicktopic that we shared that he is unlikely to chainsaw or defend a scummate. I don't know if he would be willing to start cases on players, but he might...
So what I am looking for are people that came under a bit of heat and to which, Galz did not defend, but instead added to the flames.
- From this I doubt that Eevee is Galz's partner. He was pretty adamant in his defense all game long. Like really, really adamant.
- He has an interesting post about lurkers... January 09, 2013, 1:54:03 am. Here he basically says that outside of lio--who he has no basis of comparison for--everyone is posting about the same that he would expect. Now, since we know Galz was scum my bet is that he would have potentially turned on a partner and brought heat against them if that player was lurking. So I am leaning toward thinking that the lurkers at that point, theo, themunch, glooble, dsell aren't his partners.
- his big post is also a bit telling January 10, 2013, 10:08:34 am. here he analyzes cuzz, jimmm, shraeye and mcmc. He has a townie read on mcmc, slight town read, but could lynch read on shraeye, slight scum read off Jimmmm, and voted Cuzz.
- He does however, later express a willingness to lynch Glooble, but doesn't change his vote.
- From this list provided by Cuzz (Here's something to chat about. My wagon is Galz, Munch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae and ash.), galz says he only has a town read of raerae...
- and his last post is an FOS at the people that were on the shraeye wagon and me for starting it.
so in summary:
1. ashersky - scum read from the shraeye wagon FOS and the Cuzz wagon
2. Robz - really not mentioned at all, reads wise, but has a constant conversation with him, but was on the shraeye wagon FOS
3. yuma - only read me via the shraeye wagon FOS at the end.
4. Eevee - strong town read all game, but was on the shraeye wagon FOS
5. Shraeye - slight town read, but could lynch
7. Glooble - doesn't think scummy for lurking, but would be willing to lynch
9. liopoil - scummy because on the cuzz wagon
10. mcmcsalot - town read
11. Jimmmmm - slight scum read and was on the shraeye wagon FOS
12. theorel - not much of anything about theorel, not scummy because of lurking
13. TheMunch - scummy because on the Cuzz wagon
14. Dsell - not much about Dsell, but not scummy because of lurking.
So if I had only this to go off, I would be most interested in voting Jimmm or Glooble or possibly shraeye. From this alone I wouldn't lynch Eevee, Dsell, mcmc or theorel. But thankfully, this isn't all I have to go off.
lio here I think you misunderstood something. I am not saying that I have a town read on mcmc, but rather that Galz did. Now I will admit that I was thrown off by Galz's townread on mcmc. Because in previous games that isn't how galz played... but I was able to pinpoint galz's four players and found it highly likely that a partner was in one of those four see below:
I am much more comfortable in thinking that there is scum within the three of mcmc/Jimmm/shraeye then I am in thinking that there is scum in raerae/shraeye/munch. Galz's trio actually has something of substance to base it off. It isn't surefire, but it is a lot better than raerae/shraeye/munch... But again has the same danger... For example: say if we lynch mcmc and say town!Jimmmm dies in the night that doesn't guarantee shraeye is scum... and could easily result in 2 mislynches before we finally realize that there wasn't scum in the mix... But I do think it is a better bet than heading down the other route.
I think right now I am leaning toward an mcmc vote or a glooble vote... Although I first want to have glooble answer some outstanding questions and I am curious about Robz's extra information that he is withholding... {Arrested Development reference in my head, let's see if I can find it... I did! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRl2tHxbDfo}
Here I start toward a mcmc lynch being possible... what happened before that from other players?
the following are quotes from other players...
lio said: I now have a townread on every player in this game except galzria and mcmcsalot. galz is dead, so Vote: Mcmcsalot. The rest of you have done pretty darn well coming across as on the good guy's side.
The biggest reason for this is that he said he would hammer but didn't. It's a good way to not take a side, and to not really be under scrutiny regardless of how cuzz flipped. Sure, if cuzz flipped scum people would say, "oh look, mcmc was off-wagon, but I guess he was going to hammer, and he didn't oppose the lynch... and oh look eevee REALLY didn't want to lynch him!" It seems overly cautious. Scum need to be more cautious than town, so excessive carefulness is scummy.
the munch said: So I opened today with 2 reads: Ashersky's odd end of the day play, and mcmc's "I'll hammer" then goes off the radar.
Obviously I've talked about Ashersky ad nauseum and I nearly completely forgot about my mcmc thing. I remember why I forgot. Mcmc responded pretty shortly thereafter and I didn't like his response, but didn't really have anything solid to debate regarding it without doing some rereading so I thought "eh, I'll get back to it" then I never did. Whoops.
So I reread the end of the day with mcmc's defense in mind (it was basically "I wanted people to answer cuzz's question and by the time I came back he was dead"). I can see that this is what mcmc wants to say he was doing but on reread it felt very hollow. He made the post that he wanted to wait for people to answer cuzz's question. Called out Raerae once, and then said "oh people have said a bunch, I guess Cuzz isn't dead yet, I'm going to sleep." There is nothing inherently wrong about going to sleep or sleeping through deadline but I dont like the juxtaposition of all of:
- Vocally stating intent to hammer
- Waiting for responses to Cuzz's question
- Not actually pushing very hard that that was what he was waiting for
- His last post of the day that acknowledges the possibility that Cuzz could have died while he was gone while leaving unceremoniously.
This all gives a ton of "I want to look like I would have voted for Cuzz" While not actually caring one way or another if Cuzz got lynched.
Yuma also commented on Mcmc in 1513. I think Ashersky has been quite scummy, and would be more than happy if he got lynched but I do not like the way that mcmc threw his vote down. "Oh I guess I used to have scum reads on him". It feels like one of the scummier votes I've seen in a while. I think all this is scummy enough on re-inspection that I am comfortable changing my vote. Vote: Mcmc
my posts now: let's start with mcmc:
mcmc is active in the Jimmm/eevee situation early on. He started off thinking eevee was scummy... but then turned Jimmm into his top scumread, (not voting for either)... I pointed this out and still find it to be a contradiction in that mcmc followed Jimmm's case on eevee and read eevee as scum because of it... but then ended up with a scum read on Jimmm because he "pushed the case on eevee too hard" but he still had a scum read on eevee??
Mcmc then votes ashersky. He does this when he decides to go through person by person, the first person is ash, who he votes primarily for ash's push on raerae. He maintains it for a while, while he analyzes other players such as Robz, me and eevee... but eventually he abandons it because it was an ancient read from a long time ago.
In two posts pretty close together he offers that glooble has done nothing that he found scummy, but then expresses that he would be ok with it, but would want to hear more.
Finally, after posts and posts about how he found Jimmm scummy there is finally a vote: largely due to shraeye's case on him. In the same post he expresses a slight scum read on Cuzz... but doesn't say anythign else about him until Cuzz is at L-1 (where he unvotes Jimmmm) and thinks Cuzz should claim, but says that he would be willing to lynch Cuzz. Another weird thing is that he says he has been "tunneling" Jimmmm.... but he had only been voting for him for 2 posts.... hmmm
Mcmc detaches himself from "the cases" made on Cuzz, but instead says that he finds him scummy because of his reaction. Announces intent to hammer, then 2 posts to raerae and then goes to bed...
Day 2:
So I just glossed through most of day 2 and there were posts, but I struggled to find anything to comment on... this is suspicious to me, a change in posting behavior from the previous day. At least I think it is a change in posting behavior. Let me go through them all to see if they lack the substance as much as I think...
- theory talk
- talking with ash about raerae's death
- answering themunch about the intent to hammer
- theory talk with theorel
- calls out Jimmmm
- comment on shraeye/munch/ash, has a town read on theorel
- theory talk
- theory talk
- theory talk
- theory talk
- explains scummy read on ash
- theory talk
- questioning Jimmmm
- votes ash for his "constant responses"
- would not have been supportive of the shraeye quick wagon
- disagrees with munch's case on him
- explains "constant responses" to me...
So there was more substance there once I went through it fully. I guess my major beef with mcmc are as follows:
1. his contradiction in finding jimmmm's case on eevee scummy but still finding eevee scummy
2. his no read on Glooble, shortly followed by his willingness to lynch glooble
3. his self proclaiming that he was "tunneling" Jimmmm when in fact it was only a vote for two posts...
4. a slight change in posting behavior from the day prior... at least I think it was a slight change. The just seems like less content. I have had this theory before that it is easier to be scum day1, but as the days progress it becomes harder and harder to find things to talk about... see ftl in Robz's giant game for an example--and that was before ftl lost interest--I am talking about day2 and 3, where I called him out on it and he ended up being scum. This is similar to me.
5. his read on ash and his vote on ash. Perhaps part of that is that he hasn't played with ash as much, but... in conversation's about other players he hasn't played as much before mcmc has made a point of "deferring to the elders" about their playstyle... He did so on Glooble, Dsell and someone else... I am kinda curious that he didn't do so in this situation, especially when some of us are offering up opinions on ash.
6. there is very little to no talking about Galzria in his posts... at least nothing stood out. I need to go back and check my analysis of Galz to say what he said about mcmc... (yes, I know mcmc could be scum not aligned with Galz, but I think it is stupid to not try and find galz's partners) and galz expressed a full out town read on mcmc...! If mcmc is scum partners with Galz this would fly in direct contradiction to what I would expect from Galz to do. Hmmmm.
I then do a post on Glooble... and end up voting mcmc! not glooble!
Jimmmm then immediately voted mcmc the next post. At this point mcmc has votes on him by themunch, lio, yuma and jimmmm and is at L-3.
Like you said, mcmc responds to my posts and I respond back, but my vote doesn't leave!
I then do a reread on lio and decide that mcmc is till scummier than mcmc. That is two players (glooble and lio) that I have reread and found less scummy than mcmc. If I were to not want mcmc lynched, those rereads would be the ideal time to jump ship!
ash then puts mcmc at L-2. At this point it really looks like mcmc will be lynched and Robz appears to think that it is inevitable because he comes out with his extremely convenient save of his partner.
Robz then saves his partner and his wagon dissolves.
So again I repeat that toward then end of day2, mcmc was my obvious choice for a lynch. the other two options in lio and glooble that I give I had used up and placed mcmc higher on my lynch wagon list. If I didn't want mcmc lynched as scum I would have abandoned the lynch during one of those rereads.
If I didn't want mcmc lynched like you said, when else would I have left the wagon? Maybe wait til he is at L-1 and then jump off? That would be obvious yes?
So I didn't leave the mcmc wagon when I could as scum... Why? Because I wanted him lynched. Why? Because I thought he was scum and I was scum hunting damn it! Maybe you don't know this, but I am actually pretty good at scum hunting. I have one of the higher accurate lynch % out there and to be lynched and lose the game for doing good scum hunting is extremely aggravating.
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I guess this is my beef. You think I did something suicidal.
Whereas you are ignoring the obvious. Robz just happened to investigate mcmc. What are the odds of that? 1/13 at that point? And mcmc just happened to not have used a night action and so could be cleared as being on the very scum team that he was apart of... when his partner is Galz, who was a rolecop?
If we had lynched mcmc--what Robz prevented--we probably would have won the game by now! But scum!Robz had to save his partner. To not do so would be basically losing. All it would take would be one lynch, one night kill, one investigation and MU would be all gone. He had to save his partner and he did.
Obvious play is obvious play, but you are ignoring the obvious!
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I mean, I think you are more likely to be MU than Maquis, but like robz says, that is very possible as well. Robz being maquis is very unlikely.
why is this? I feel like again I have pointed out ways that are extremely plausible for Robz to be Maquis. And again I am befuddled. You think he is less likely to be Maquis than me. Remember the player that had a townread on Glooble all stinking game until a wagon formed on him and then followed everyone else into voting for him. Or do you buy the story that he was "the crucial almighty leader" of helping town decide between glooble or lio?
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and where the world is Jimmmm? Well right now he is probably sleeping in Australia... but he has had so little to add in the last few days
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to be lynched and lose the game for doing good scum hunting is extremely aggravating.
about to respond to the rest, but first I'd just like to say that I'm certainly not voting you because of your scumhunting. Your being vocal in the glooble and mcmc lynches is the only reason I didn't vote you sooner. It is certainly a strong defense, but as been said before, everyone has a strong defense. You are the only one that doesn't have a defense relating to night actions, in fact, the night actions are somewhat incriminating. This is my main reason for voting you.
Gonna read your post again, then post thoughts.
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to be lynched and lose the game for doing good scum hunting is extremely aggravating.
about to respond to the rest, but first I'd just like to say that I'm certainly not voting you because of your scumhunting. Your being vocal in the glooble and mcmc lynches is the only reason I didn't vote you sooner. It is certainly a strong defense, but as been said before, everyone has a strong defense. You are the only one that doesn't have a defense relating to night actions, in fact, the night actions are somewhat incriminating. This is my main reason for voting you.
Gonna read your post again, then post thoughts.
and once again I feel like I have responded to that and pointed out that in fact you are wrong. But again, you never responded, so I have no idea whether or not you read them or not...
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I don't think robz can be maquis because of his D2 claim, the lack of a second NK N4, and even the fact that ash died, not me, N5. Also his certainty that I was scum.
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I don't think robz can be maquis because of his D2 claim, the lack of a second NK N4, and even the fact that ash died, not me, N5. Also his certainty that I was scum.
well then how do you explain those same things with me? Except for the thinking you were scum, which I did not yesterday.
Does my claim fit being a Maquis? Does my not killing N4 explain being a Maquis? How does ash dying instead of me explain being a Maquis?
Let me explain. I am going to try and take a neutral standpoint here...
Robz claim as 1-shot tracker as Maquis is a better scum claim than 1-shot LR I believe.
Not killing night 4.... In both scenarios it is weird, because it leaves alive the Maquis cop longer than necessary. We can hypothesize that theorel was killed by mcmc (or his partner if he has one, but if that is true then there isn't a Maquis) so for this purpose we can assume it was mcmc. Both yuma and Robz could have done it to make it look like there wasn't a Maquis around. Because ash would be the logical kill for both teams. So I don't know if either player gets an advantage here.
Killing ash N5 instead of you. It has been repeatedly said by Robz--and now apparently by you--that Robz as Maquis wouldn't want to kill ash because ash had a townread on him. I kinda agree on this, but I still think that it would be uber risky to not kill ash. Why? Because reads can change very rapidly overnight. A reread can change everything and Robz wouldn't know who ash was going to investigate. The was always the possiblity that ash would investigate Robz and turn him out as scum. So he had to die, just to eliminate that risk! But the same logic works here as well for yuma. there was a chance that yuma would be investigated by ash and found out as scum, so ash had to die to eliminate that risk.
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I understand that galzria had a townread on mcmc, not you.
The point about being the third person to get on the wagon is good. For some reason I had thought that you initiated the case, which makes much more sense as MU yuma. Probably because I just re-read you in isolation, not the whole thread.
I guess the lynch was really quite likely without the tracker result, which you have no way of knowing would happen...
So that defense really is considerably stronger than I had thought. I don't know though... The night actions just fit perfectly if you are MU. I think you said you have shown why this is not so. I believe I have read every post in this thread, but I may have forgotten, so could you point me to that? It's very possible I saw it, just disagreed with it.
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I don't think robz can be maquis because of his D2 claim, the lack of a second NK N4, and even the fact that ash died, not me, N5. Also his certainty that I was scum.
well then how do you explain those same things with me? Except for the thinking you were scum, which I did not yesterday.
Does my claim fit being a Maquis? Does my not killing N4 explain being a Maquis? How does ash dying instead of me explain being a Maquis?
Let me explain. I am going to try and take a neutral standpoint here...
Robz claim as 1-shot tracker as Maquis is a better scum claim than 1-shot LR I believe.
Not killing night 4.... In both scenarios it is weird, because it leaves alive the Maquis cop longer than necessary. We can hypothesize that theorel was killed by mcmc (or his partner if he has one, but if that is true then there isn't a Maquis) so for this purpose we can assume it was mcmc. Both yuma and Robz could have done it to make it look like there wasn't a Maquis around. Because ash would be the logical kill for both teams. So I don't know if either player gets an advantage here.
Killing ash N5 instead of you. It has been repeatedly said by Robz--and now apparently by you--that Robz as Maquis wouldn't want to kill ash because ash had a townread on him. I kinda agree on this, but I still think that it would be uber risky to not kill ash. Why? Because reads can change very rapidly overnight. A reread can change everything and Robz wouldn't know who ash was going to investigate. The was always the possiblity that ash would investigate Robz and turn him out as scum. So he had to die, just to eliminate that risk! But the same logic works here as well for yuma. there was a chance that yuma would be investigated by ash and found out as scum, so ash had to die to eliminate that risk.
claims: why claim so early though, in D2? Maquis!robz derails a lynch which he, as maquis, is fine with! why?? I don't think the towncred is worth it. You just claimed what you knew wouldn't be counterclaimed, when everyone else was claiming too.
N4: we knew ash was going to investigate me. maquis!robz doesn't want me to be cleared really badly. Maquis!Yuma doesn't mind since he was against the lynch anyway. You could have potentially sent the kill to Jtotheonah too I guess...
N5: It isn't just that ashersky has a townread on robz. It's that I also had a scumread on robz. scum!yuma need to get a lynch through D6. The easiest lynch is robz. So kill the person who supports him, and leave the person who is against him. You have a point about reads changing overnight.
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oh, and scum!yuma makes the teams much more balanced then Scum!robz
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I don't think robz can be maquis because of his D2 claim, the lack of a second NK N4, and even the fact that ash died, not me, N5. Also his certainty that I was scum.
well then how do you explain those same things with me? Except for the thinking you were scum, which I did not yesterday.
Does my claim fit being a Maquis? Does my not killing N4 explain being a Maquis? How does ash dying instead of me explain being a Maquis?
Let me explain. I am going to try and take a neutral standpoint here...
Robz claim as 1-shot tracker as Maquis is a better scum claim than 1-shot LR I believe.
Not killing night 4.... In both scenarios it is weird, because it leaves alive the Maquis cop longer than necessary. We can hypothesize that theorel was killed by mcmc (or his partner if he has one, but if that is true then there isn't a Maquis) so for this purpose we can assume it was mcmc. Both yuma and Robz could have done it to make it look like there wasn't a Maquis around. Because ash would be the logical kill for both teams. So I don't know if either player gets an advantage here.
Killing ash N5 instead of you. It has been repeatedly said by Robz--and now apparently by you--that Robz as Maquis wouldn't want to kill ash because ash had a townread on him. I kinda agree on this, but I still think that it would be uber risky to not kill ash. Why? Because reads can change very rapidly overnight. A reread can change everything and Robz wouldn't know who ash was going to investigate. The was always the possiblity that ash would investigate Robz and turn him out as scum. So he had to die, just to eliminate that risk! But the same logic works here as well for yuma. there was a chance that yuma would be investigated by ash and found out as scum, so ash had to die to eliminate that risk.
claims: why claim so early though, in D2? Maquis!robz derails a lynch which he, as maquis, is fine with! why?? I don't think the towncred is worth it. You just claimed what you knew wouldn't be counterclaimed, when everyone else was claiming too.
N4: we knew ash was going to investigate me. maquis!robz doesn't want me to be cleared really badly. Maquis!Yuma doesn't mind since he was against the lynch anyway. You could have potentially sent the kill to Jtotheonah too I guess...
N5: It isn't just that ashersky has a townread on robz. It's that I also had a scumread on robz. scum!yuma need to get a lynch through D6. The easiest lynch is robz. So kill the person who supports him, and leave the person who is against him. You have a point about reads changing overnight.
ok these are fair points... but just a few things.
Point 1: If Robz is actually a Maquis tracker then he very well could have tracked mcmc hoping that he was a cop, but when he tracked him, he got no result? So when mcmcm comes up for a lynch, Robz does what is townie--because that is how scum likes to operate, they like to appear townie--and says that he tracked mcmc and he didn't do anything. Not only does it give him some towncred, but it also prevents trouble down the road. Let's say that Robz didn't say anything and mcmc gets lynched.... fast forward to day4 and we are mass claiming. Robz claims that he is a 1-shot tracker. But who did he track? Ummm... He can't say mcmc night1 cause then we would all be like, "well then why didn't you say something!" so he has to lie... and that is a possible time for him to be caught in a lie... "well, I tracked ash night1!" Lie! he must be scum.... do you understand what I am getting at?
Point 2: I am not sure what you are getting at here... If Robz is maquis, he would have performed a NK, if I was maquis I would have performed a nk. But there wasn't another one kill beside theorel. So I don't see the advantage pointing toward anyone here.
Point 3: Nothing really to add except to say that in kinda a similar situation in MVIII I was a 2-shot Vig. I went into night with very, very solid reads on Robz being scum. But some rereads flipped my reads completely and I ended up shooting our IC instead. I know how a night can change everything how you feel about a game, and so does Robz.
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he's sure to have someone to say he tracked... like munch or something!
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on the copping thing I posted this a while back:
this seems like a crucial point for you, one significant enough for you to overlook the very obvious play of preventing the lynch of a confirmed scum! But I guess my question is why am I more likely to kill ashersky N5? Is it because Robz keeps saying that he would coast to a victory as scum if he hadn't killed ash? Because I feel like both Jimmmm and I have documented a scenario--that correlates with our scenario in which he is mcmc's partner and saved him day2--in which it was favorable for Robz to kill asherksy, which I don't feel like you have ever responded to.
Here is another point that I don't think has been analyzed. Who do you think ashersky was most likely to investigate last night? There are three options... 1. Jimmmm--with the intent of either finding scum or making him an IC. 2. Robz--but not because of the mcmc thing but because ash is a Maquis cop and can't look for robz to be MU. 3. yuma--who ash was voting for the day before. I would wager that in this scenario ash would most likely investigate yuma. Do you agree?
So in this scenario MU!yuma doesn't want to NK ashersky because ash will likely investigate MU!yuma and give him 1/2 IC status.
If you disagree and think ash was more likely to investigate either Robz or Jimmmm then I suppose this last point is a bit moot.
Does that make sense?
with the main question being who do we think ash was going to investigate last night. I think the answer would be yuma. As a result... why would MU!yuma kill the one person that could give him 1/2 IC status? But the same point applies to Robz. Why would he kill the one person that could give him 1/2 IC status. But this has already been answered. If Robz is MU, then he knows that people are going to be suspicious of him over the Mcmc tracking thing. Therefor he needs to deflect. and the best way to do that is to make it look like there isn't MU, but Maquis instead... and the best way to do that is to kill the Maquis cop in ash.
But like I said in posts above, it is hard to know what someone is going to do during the night as reads can change.
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he's sure to have someone to say he tracked... like munch or something!
sure... but once or if themunch is revealed as scum... does that point the finger at robz? I don't know. All I know that is if I were scum!tracker and someone I had tracked came up for a lynch I would stop the lynch. 1. for town cred and 2. because lying as scum is just bad in any situation if it can be avoided 3. because it would also likely prevent myself from being NKed following nights. (this last part is actually kinda a big deal). In this game scum wanted to hit cops. So it would be good to have an opportunity to say Hey! I am a 1-shot tracker and used up my power, so now I am essentially a VT. (aka I am not a good target for a night kill). This is big in a game with other mafia factions as we have seen as two mafia have been targeted by the opposing scum team.
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I think ash was going to investigate Jimmmmmm. I feel like we decided that... maybe not
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I'm here but about to leave for work again. Been super busy. I do not agree with a yuma lynch at this point in time.
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Something that people have claimed, that I've always found a tad ridiculous, is that I could be a tracker maquis who prevented mcmc's lynch just for the fun of it. Especially because, if this is true, my partners are Glooble and Munch. And yuma claims that Glooble was the alternative to mcmc at that point. So my reveal would save mcmc at the peril of Glooble, my scumbuddy under this scenario.
Now, as for yuma, I think he may have been trapped in a scenario I found myself in M-VIII... a scenario where you are trying to be voting for your partners, but have them not actually get lynched. I tried to do this in M-VIII, repeatedly voting for my scumbuddy Captain_Frisk, even in the increasing likelihood of him getting lynched. I really did feel it was the only way to disassociate myself from him--have me be voting for him as the town mislynches a town. And it didn't work, I got Frisk lynched, and my other partner, O, was super mad at me. So I think yuma might just have been in that situation, either with mcmc on Day 2, or with Glooble on Day 3.
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I'm here but about to leave for work again. Been super busy. I do not agree with a yuma lynch at this point in time.
Let's all remember that we can in fact no lynch if it comes to that.
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I will reiterate that my biggest criticisms of yuma remain at this point that we claims to have committed a series of mistakes that I think yuma is unlikely to make. And this is a game that we know has featured some weird scheming and plotting, incomprehensible to town, and I think yuma is likely to be the perpetrator, and his "mistakes" were for whatever reason scum gambits.
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That's not to say his defense isn't without merit. There are good reasons to acquit him. But there are good reasons to acquit everyone.
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Unfortunately there's really no point to me reconsidering my vote--which I would be happy to do! I'm far from convinced!--if yuma and I are the only options on the table.
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Unfortunately there's really no point to me reconsidering my vote--which I would be happy to do! I'm far from convinced!--if yuma and I are the only options on the table.
Hmm that makes me think we should get this done quickly instead of letting no-lynch happen. You and yuma are and should be the only options on the table. The chance of each of you being scum seems small, but the chance of you both being Town is miniscule. Maybe if we no-lynch today the scum among you convinces the Town to vote me or lio tomorrow. When I have time tonight I'll do some re-reads and put my vote on who I think is most likely to be scum.
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Something that people have claimed, that I've always found a tad ridiculous, is that I could be a tracker maquis who prevented mcmc's lynch just for the fun of it. Especially because, if this is true, my partners are Glooble and Munch. And yuma claims that Glooble was the alternative to mcmc at that point. So my reveal would save mcmc at the peril of Glooble, my scumbuddy under this scenario.
But that is not what I said about mcmc/glooble. I said from my perspective--who I felt was scummy--it was between mcmc and glooble. The real alternative to mcmc at this point was shraeye... who by the way you were voting for. shraeye was the alternative for being lynched day2. I dont' think glooble received a vote all day2...
I think this was the vote count at the time you claimed... with ash just barely having switch from shraeye to mcmc.
shraeye (3): Eevee, Robz888, theorel
mcmcsalot (5): The Munch, liopoil, yuma, Jimmmm, ashersky
Now, as for yuma, I think he may have been trapped in a scenario I found myself in M-VIII... a scenario where you are trying to be voting for your partners, but have them not actually get lynched. I tried to do this in M-VIII, repeatedly voting for my scumbuddy Captain_Frisk, even in the increasing likelihood of him getting lynched. I really did feel it was the only way to disassociate myself from him--have me be voting for him as the town mislynches a town. And it didn't work, I got Frisk lynched, and my other partner, O, was super mad at me. So I think yuma might just have been in that situation, either with mcmc on Day 2, or with Glooble on Day 3.
No I had scumreads on mcmc and glooble. Even if what you say is true... that I am scum.... I must have had a true scumread on one of them right? It can't have been both because they weren't on the same team. So which is it? My answer is neither. I am just good at scum hunting. I am not trying to brag, but I have improved significantly lately. Look at MXI (grujah, watno, ftl, theorel, and more) and MXV (ash, joth and qvist) as examples of that.
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But you're also good at being scum. The consensus of Forum Games players is that you are the best scum. You literally won an award!
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So Yuma made some good points, and I certainly am less sure about him being scum now (not that I ever was), but I'll go back to Vote: Yuma now.
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Jimmmmm is viewing the thread now.....
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I'm here and not voting for yuma at this point in time.
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But you're also good at being scum. The consensus of Forum Games players is that you are the best scum. You literally won an award!
but what does that have to do with me being scum in this game? Your reasons for wanting me lynched just seem to grow more and more absurd with time!
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So Yuma made some good points, and I certainly am less sure about him being scum now (not that I ever was), but I'll go back to Vote: Yuma now.
well thanks for listening to me at least.... I was really frustrated because I felt like I was going to be mislynched w/o having my points or defenses acknowledged. I am still not happy about it obviously... but at least I am not nearly as frustrated about it as I was..
Oh and it looks like Jimmmm is confirmed not scum at this point right... since he hasn't hammered me and won?
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So Yuma made some good points, and I certainly am less sure about him being scum now (not that I ever was), but I'll go back to Vote: Yuma now.
well thanks for listening to me at least.... I was really frustrated because I felt like I was going to be mislynched w/o having my points or defenses acknowledged. I am still not happy about it obviously... but at least I am not nearly as frustrated about it as I was..
Oh and it looks like Jimmmm is confirmed not scum at this point right... since he hasn't hammered me and won?
Yes, I believe so. Now that's how you make an IC!
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Hooray for Jimmmmmm being town! now... who does he think is the scum? If he thinks it's robz I could very potentially be persuaded.
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Screw it if lio's a Godfather let's just end it now since I'm certainly not lynching him. Vote: Robz.
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*Not hammering*
really guys, I'm just a neighbor, I promise ;)
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Phew. Unvote.
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Convinced that it's you or yuma now Robz?
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I hope so :P
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well now that we know that lio and jimmm aren't scum we have to consider the following:
is it scummier to leave potential doors open like robz did in thinking that scum could be yuma, Jimmmm or lio?
or
is it scummier to basically eliminate those possibilities based off evidence and %s and such and eventually focus down on one suspect like I did and not consider jimmmm or lio to be scum?
Obviously I think that my method wasn't scummy... and that robz leaving room for multiple people to be the mislynch is the scummier of the two options. Robz would probably disagree--and has disagreed before--but what do you two think about it?
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I think Town Robz/yuma had enough information at the start of the day to conclude that the other had to be scum.
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I think Town Robz/yuma had enough information at the start of the day to conclude that the other had to be scum.
then what do you make of robz leaving the door open for it to be potentially lio or you and lamenting that the rest of us weren't willing to consider the possibilities seriously?
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Seriously, screw you all. I was unsatisfied that yuma had to be the scum, because it didn't fit quite right, and I don't want to blow it. I have blown it for town in this exact position at least twice. In Mafia IV and Mafia XII at least, I got ahead of myself, struck people off my list, and went with my gut, and was wrong both times. So forgive me for leaving open strange doors to try and explain the strange things that happened.
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That said, I now accept that it has to be yuma. I'm actually surprised; I was very prepared for it be lio. I was already thinking about the angry things I would be saying to Jo.
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Ugggh. Fuck.
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well this is fun... I have never been alive during a lylo scenario before (I rarely survive through a whole game)... well I was briefly in MVIII, but then we no-lynched instead and I was night killed... Lame.
PPE: it would appear that robz disagrees on the funness of the situation... Sorry man.
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I'll admit I had an "Oh crap!" moment when I saw lio posting right after I voted.
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I'm so mad at yuma for suggesting that me being hedgy is a scumtell, something that has definitely been proven to be something scum accuses town of to get them lynched, stretching all the way back to Mafia II when I first used this tactic succesfully, but of course lio and Jimm wouldn't remember that.
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well this is fun... I have never been alive during a lylo scenario before (I rarely survive through a whole game)... well I was briefly in MVIII, but then we no-lynched instead and I was night killed... Lame.
PPE: it would appear that robz disagrees on the funness of the situation... Sorry man.
Maybe the situation is fun for scum. It's damn infurating for town.
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Why be mad at him? If you're Town then he's scum and that's a valid tactic whether it's true or not.
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Here, here's a time capsule for you. This is from Mafia II. I am scum with Galzria. Here's where I first start insisting that people who change their mind about who is scum ("hedging") are themselves scum. It was a manipulative lie. I tried very hard not to waver from my convictions, and used the fact that I didn't waver from them as evidence of my towniness.
All of that said, as much of a thorn in my side as I am finding Voltgloss right now, I suspect him less of being mafia than I did before.
Galzria and others have convinced me that probably only one of the voters is mafia. At the end of my last post, I said as much, and that I would be dropping my case against either Volt or Robz. I think a mafia would have responded to that hint by trying to get on my good side. Volt responded by stepping up his attack against me. That's points in favor of him being town, in my book.
I don't really understand this at all, and it's sort of emblematic of why you have emerged, in my view, as the most suspicious Morgrim voter, when I initially suspected Galzria and Volt much more. All four of us killed this guy, the wrong guy, and there are fair reasons why each of us is supicious (Galzria was all over the place, Volt and I read like we are working in tandem, you expressed hesitance but didn't retract). But now you sound a lot to me like a mafia picking his next target. "I would be dropping my case against either Volt or Robz." This isn't a prosecution. You can suspect both of us. (Indeed, I sympathize with suspecting both of us.) Volt is mostly saying things that I also think about you, and have said ever since you started hedging your bets.
I'm already a little wary of the way you and Robz888 put together some of your arguments for Morgrim. I fully acknowledge he did next to nothing to help his own case, but I've seen a lot of straw-man arguments from you two. It got Morgrim killed.
This is a valid point. I full admit to hammering Morgrim hard. There were a lot of things that made me suspicious of him. But some of the things I said about him I said because I hoped it would provoke him, and possibly get him to confess or say something really incriminating. Or, if he respond reasonably, I might have reconsidered my vote. It's so hard to make these calls and read people, and one way of doing this is to provoke and irritate. I wouldn't have done this to him if I didn't already have strong suspicions. But so long as the mafia behave like rational people, it is hard to figure them out. I was hoping to provoke him into behaving irrationally, so that we could learn for certain whether he was mafia. (You can check the other game for evidence of this play style.) And let me point out, I did succeed at getting him to act irrationally... but instead of saying something that truly revealed his allegiance, he offed himself. And I am sorry about that.
Jtheonah's belated unvote of Morgrim read like an early attempt to create a narrative for himself, "I didn't really suspect poor, innocent Morgrim, I was confused by these other three." Perhaps that's a wise thing to do whether you're town or mafia. But I strongly suspect that 'hedging' is more likely to be a mafia thing to do, rather than a town thing.
All this is not to say that I now think jtheonah is mafia and Galz and Volt are totally in the clear. (Also, Galz and j could both be mafia.) Indeed, I said earlier that if not for j's post-morgrim behavior, I would probably suspect him the least. But I don't like how he's acting.
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More from M-II:
So the question you need to answer is which is more suspicious: conviction/consistency or excitability/flexibility? Just keep in mind that the mafia already know who they're trying to kill. They're the ones who can afford conviction.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, totally wrong. The mafia don't need conviction/consistency. The townspeople need those things. Excitability and flexibility are the mafia's top tools for scoring lynch kills in their favor. There are way more town than mafia, so the more hedging the more flexibility, the more excitability, the more likely we are to expand the circle of suspicion to including way too many innocent people. We need conviction (based on evidence and reason, of course) to get the mafia. They don't need conviction or consistency to get us.
To state it practically, the mafia don't care if we kill Morgrim. They just care that we kill someone, because that person is likely not to be a mafia. I cared that we killed Morgrim specifically, and I was convicted and consistent in that respect because I suspected him, for reasons I've stated and that many people, including jtheonah at the time, agreed with.
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Again, the above is me, as scum, making the same argument that yuma is now making about me.
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so would I as scum... knowing this (I had watched MII as a spectator) use this method to implicate you?
Or would you as scum be hedgy because you have said that being convinced is a scummy thing to do?
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so would I as scum... knowing this (I had watched MII as a spectator) use this method to implicate you?
Or would you as scum be hedgy because you have said that being convinced is a scummy thing to do?
Oh, please. You couldn't help it--it comes naturally to scum to argue that people who are changing their mind are scummy. Jimm and lio weren't around for the early games where we definitively disproved this.
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Now that I know yuma is scum for certain, I will have to re-read him one more time. Nobody do anything sudden.
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But Robz you need to look at the context. I mean... actually look at the game that we are playing. If I remember MII correctly there was good reason for wavering and being uncertain. I don't think there was a IC around... or 1/2 ICs in that game. But here... there is! I guess I think that even considering--and you went beyond that as placing it as the most plausible--about the possibility of Jimmm or lio being scum (something that both I and the other two considered to be soooo super unlikely) is a tad bit ridiculous. You say you were being thorough. I say you were leaving doors open... and once you realized that none of us were going for it, you ended up on me.
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not being certain from the beginning is towny. Yes, robz and Yuma should have been each other's top suspects, but Robz was very correct to consider Jimmmmm and I. I admit I initially ruled Jimmmmm out, and this was a mistake.
I'd agree with Yuma about this situation. It is fun. Unless you're like sudgy in the newbie game, where you know who the scum is but nobody listens. Which is the position that town!Yuma would be in. (to a lesser extent.) Therefore I conclude that Yuma enjoying this game is scummy.
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not being certain from the beginning is towny. Yes, robz and Yuma should have been each other's top suspects, but Robz was very correct to consider Jimmmmm and I. I admit I initially ruled Jimmmmm out, and this was a mistake.
I agree! But that isn't what Robz did. That is what I did. I was open to the idea of Jimmm potentially being--never really was toward you--but once I did a reread and actually looked at everything I settled on Robz. But Robz said that my "certainty" was a scum trait... when it fact it wasn't a certainty until today after you two became cleared, but clearly the most likely after my reread and looking at the evidence.
That didn't happen for Robz, throughout the day from the beginning until very recently he was completely open to the idea of Jimmmm and even more so for you!!! and only changed when it was obvious he couldn't convince either jimmm or me.
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I'd agree with Yuma about this situation. It is fun. Unless you're like sudgy in the newbie game, where you know who the scum is but nobody listens. Which is the position that town!Yuma would be in. (to a lesser extent.) Therefore I conclude that Yuma enjoying this game is scummy.
Just because you guys aren't listening to me doesn't mean it isn't fun. If it wasn't fun I wouldn't be doing it... It is something that is hard, a little frustrating yes..., but certainly my definition of "fun." A game being fun isn't dependent on my winning it. Sheesh.
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I don't actually really think that in this case you can get clues about a player's allignment by anaylzing how much they are enjoying the game... I mean, it's mafia: It's fun. Neither of you are really scummy for your confidence or lack of confidence about the other player being scum either. Both of your approaches to puzzling out who the scum is in this crazy scenario were fine.
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Jimmmmmm! come figure out who the scum is!
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about 18 1/2 hours left. pros and cons of no lynch:
Pros:
-two weeks more for us to decide
-scum might have a negative utility which hurts them.
Cons:
-scum might have a role which makes no-lynching help them
So, if we haven't decided near the deadline, I think it is okay for us to no lynch if the extra time will help us.
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tick tick tick tick.....
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tick tick tick tick.....
boom!
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Ugh, I don't know if I am going to have time to post like a big yuma case or anything before the deadline. I mean, going to night is not going to harm us probably. I feel worse for the qt people who are probably like dying that we are dragging this out so long.
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Yeah sorry everyone, I don't think we're going to come to a conclusion by deadline.
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The prophets were watching the action on the station with interest. Well, watching implies a sense of linear time, but they were aware of it in it's completeness, and they would have been surprised, if that concept had any meaning to them, at the DS9 denizen's capacity for time wasting. In this case, however, it had saved a life.
The deadline has been reached. No one has been lynched.
THREAD LOCKED
Extra long night for mod V/LA. Night Actions are due at 3 p.m. Wednesday, March 6th.
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Opening this a little early.
In the morning, there are only 3 people left on Deep Space Nine. Vedek Bariel Antos, Station-Aligned 1-shot doctor and Beloved Princess, was beamed into space.
The three survivors regard each other with suspicion in the decaying remains of Quark's bar. Each has armed themselves with a phaser. It's a regular Mexican standoff.
Jimmmmm has been nightkilled. With 3 alive, it takes two to lynch.
Not voting (3): yuma, Robz888, liopoil
Deadline is Wednesday, March 20th at noon.
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vote: robz didn't use Lrod. Robz must be scum. But unlikely to convince anyone of that. O well
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There's only one person you have to convince! You're not going to convince me, obviously.
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Well, Vote: yuma
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So here is the deal. Robz and I are both scum. I am maquis. He is mu. How do I know? I didn't night kill last night. I realize this will probably get me lynched but lio don't think that lynching me will win town the game. You get to choose which scum team wins. What a lame game.
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Nice try.
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Actually it's a very good try, because if lio believes you, he must choose not to vote, and we end up deadlocked, which is probably the best outcome for you, given that lio already was more inclined to believe me than you.
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Lio, now that yuma has confessed, are you ready to put this game to rest? I sure am.
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oh... my. there's quite a bit of WIFOM here. however, I think it points at Yuma being scum.
So say Yuma is town. Why doesn't he use the L-rod? the only reason I can think of is if he lied about accidentally sending his order to Jtotheonah. The play makes sense as scum, since it seemed likely that he would be lynched, so made a somewhat desperate move. Also, if Robz is scum, he probably doesn't kill anyone, because he knows there is a good chance that Yuma L-rods. From his perspective it seems like he is going to win anyway, so why take the risk of losing right away if Yuma L-rods? The only thing from tonight that helps Yuma is the fact that it was Jimmmmmm who died, because Jimmmmm is the person robz is more likely to want dead. However, yuma knows that reads can change overnight, and so hopes to change mine by making it look like robz did it.
I'm ready to hammer Yuma, but I'll give him a chance to say anything else that he has to say.
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woah, just saw yuma-post. wait a minute.
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actually, if I knew for sure that you were both scum on opposite teams then I WIN. I just refuse to vote, and you two NK each other and I win. If you two try to lynch me, I just say that I will insta-vote the first player to vote for me, giving the other player the win.
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here's why you aren't both scum though:
-only one kill N4
-only one kill N5
-game is super unbalanced against town
-scum!robz doesn't kill last night
-neighborhood
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oh, and if you are both scum then one of you is maquis. neither of you seem likely maquis.
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restating intent to hammer.
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I'm here, lio, and obviously am fine with you hammering. I don't know if you're looking for some kind of response from yuma, but he appears to be offline.
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I'll wait for Yuma. I doubt he has anything to say that could deter me, but I'll give him a chance. I mean, there's no hurry or anything...
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Sure. I'm just excited for this to finally be over. This will also be only the third time I live to the end of a game, and the first time I don't blow it for the town.
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me too. and I feel better about it now that it seems I probably win. and if it happens that you are both scum, I won't really feel like it was all my fault...
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I also really want to know why he no-killed that one night, assuming he's maquis like he claims. And if he's really LR and all that.
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no, I think he only said he was maquis because it was more plausible that he was maquis and you MU than the other way around. He has to convince me you're both scum, and that's the best way to do it. He's probably MU.
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no, I think he only said he was maquis because it was more plausible that he was maquis and you MU than the other way around. He has to convince me you're both scum, and that's the best way to do it. He's probably MU.
Okay, I guess that makes sense.
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here's why you aren't both scum though:
-only one kill N4
-only one kill N5
-game is super unbalanced against town
-scum!robz doesn't kill last night
-neighborhood
whatever. I am not going to try and convince you. Don't care anymore and am obviously not going to win. But I would rather see town win than robz galz and mcmc. By the way I am not just a lrod but also was a one shot bus driver. Could choose between the two.
I didn't kill nfour. I don't know why robz didn't kill nfive. But will be furious if joth didn't say it was a double kill like shraeye. Also dammit jimmmm. Why didn't you play yesterday! I think you could have convinced lio to vote robz but no..... You had to take your good sweet time.
Like I said if you can think of a way to help town win rather than robz. I would help.vote: no lynch
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Lynch me if you don't belive me. Just don't be surprised when robz wins
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okay. Robz wins. But I think I do too.
vote: Yuma
flipflipflipflipflip
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joth is online!
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Rom, Garak, and Kasidy Yates are all pointing phasers at each other in the wreckage of Morn's bar.
"Garak's a Maquis!" says Kasidy. "I know it sounds crazy, since he's a Cardassian and he helped us kill Benjamin, but he is!"
"Don't listen to her lies!" says Garak. "She's from the Mirror Universe."
"Uh... Uh..." Rom says, in a blind panic. Finally in a moment of spontaneous decision he turns his phaser on Garak, and vaporizes him.
"Good job," said Kasidy, pointing her phaser at Rom. "Now put down your phaser and march."
"What? Where are we going?"
"We're going to the transporter room, where you're going to help me reconfigure the transporters to send us back to my home, to the Mirror Universe. We don't have much time. Now that I've eliminated all the threats, the station is all mine. And we're going to beam the entire thing over to the Mirror Universe! Soon the Terran Rebellion will have it's own Terok Nor, and it's all thanks to you."
By the time the Enterprise arrives, Deep Space Nine is nowhere in sight.
GAME OVER.
Garak, the Maquis 1-shot Busdriver OR 1-shot Lightning Rod has been lynched. (yuma)
Rom, the Station-aligned Neighbor has been endgamed. (liopoil)
Kasidy Yates, the Mirror Universe-aligned 1-shot Commuter has won the game, along with teammates Galzria and Mcmcsalot (Robz888)
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Yaaaaaaaay
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I have to get on a plane! Other people can post speccy links if they want! Good game everyone!
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ugh. sorry yuma. well done robz. I don't understand how this is possible...
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yuma did you ever use your bus-driving power?
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why did robz kill Jimmmmm? why did Yuma get glooble lynched? why was there only one kill night 4 and 5? how did town ever have a chance to win this? (I guess I could have by no lynching at the end... but I mean, I think what I did was the obvious choice...)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKKSBHlxRdg
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I am shaking.
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yuma, did you fake the marquis and the accidentally sending stuff to jtotheonah? maybe you accidentally sent the KILL there two...
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I was like losing sleep over this game. I've gone back and forth from certain I was going to win to certain Iw as going to lose so many times.
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Congrats to Galz/Robz/Mcmc.
Don't fret too much lio, scum was going to win no matter what from D1.
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neighborhood QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/LmFnVwkP6gBVE
I talked to myself for a while here. I pegged the robz-mcmc MU scumteam there back in like D4 or something, but talked myself out of it.
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So obviously, I shot theorel.
That was the night yuma claimed to be roleblocked, and since neither I nor mcmc were roleblockers, I knew there was another maquis still alive (either yuma himself, or someone who blocked him).
I didn't kill the next night because if I did, there would have been two kills.. an obvious indication that there were still scum from both teams, and I thought, obviously I would be correctly pinned ad the last MU.
Last night, I thought yuma would kill lio in hopes that he and Jimm could lynch me. I shot Jimm expecting to share the win with yuma's team.
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My greatest asset--I think--has been the fact that yuma did not know for sure there was another scum left from the other team, whereas I did know that for sure.
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Here's my qt, where I explain in great detail my actions: http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/c8EkAh32H8V
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wait, but you knew Yuma was the likely lynch, so why did you settle for what you thought would be a draw?
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Ahh, lightning Rod, worst role ever!
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Robz, did you ever commute?
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wait, but you knew Yuma was the likely lynch, so why did you settle for what you thought would be a draw?
You can read my detailed explanation in the qt, but I thought on the whole, having no idea what yuma would do, me killing Jimm had the best net consequences.
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Robz, did you ever commute?
Yes, on night 1.
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Robz, did you ever commute?
Yes, on night 1.
Why did you kill raerae?
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I'm just glad my short-lived D1 interactions didn't go to waste for my team in the end.
Liopoil, 3 nights ago Yuma didn't kill. 2 nights ago Robz didn't. Last night Yuma didn't.
Honestly, neither side played the last few days particularly optimally... But you really didn't have much choice in what to do. Yesterday had to be no-lynch or (more ideally) town lynch. Today had to be no-lynch. And the way it broke down with alternating NK's there wasn't any way for you to come to that conclusion.
FWIW I was rooting for an "everybody dies" scenario, although I'm happy to have won.
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wow, that QT is long! much longer than the QT mcmc and I had in newbie mafia. I guess this game had over twice as many days though... must get around to reading it sometime.
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Robz, did you ever commute?
Yes, on night 1.
Why did you kill raerae?
We thought she was scum.
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I was seriously considering doing the same thing as yuma--outing us both--today. But he did it first, solidifying my win.
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Lol at the end, each person had their own qt to contemplate things in.
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Here's the Spec QT, which is long but really walks things through since I figured all the scum fairly early:
http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/eSGUR3pRJtP
I think it's fairly in depth actually.
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Yuma, I have to say you did a great job. Even when I was certain that you were scum, I wasn't certain. My confusion was totally genuine. I did still believe it could be lio. Of course, I had the benefit of knowing that Galz had a weird component to his role, where he would have turned up SK if investigated by the SK cop. I thought maybe lio had some weird thing where he was immune to other investigations, but would also turn up positive in that respect or something.
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^sucks
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yuma did you ever use your bus-driving power?
yes I bused ash and munch night 2
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yuma, did you fake the marquis and the accidentally sending stuff to jtotheonah? maybe you accidentally sent the KILL there two...
marquis was purely an accident. sending the PM was a complete lie... and one that I think was a bit on the creative side if I don't mind saying so myself. I had wanted to use it even later... but it looked like I was about to become the impending lynch so I wanted to use it to move the conversation away a bit. Didn't work quite as well as I had hoped... but o well.
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So obviously, I shot theorel.
That was the night yuma claimed to be roleblocked, and since neither I nor mcmc were roleblockers, I knew there was another maquis still alive (either yuma himself, or someone who blocked him).
I didn't kill the next night because if I did, there would have been two kills.. an obvious indication that there were still scum from both teams, and I thought, obviously I would be correctly pinned ad the last MU.
Last night, I thought yuma would kill lio in hopes that he and Jimm could lynch me. I shot Jimm expecting to share the win with yuma's team.
Killing anyone--I really didn't think there was another scum team, I mean I thought there might be but just doubted it--would have been pretty much suicidal I thought. Because it would have resulted in the same problem as today.
"Yuma why didn't you use your L-Rod and die, that way we would know Robz is the last remaining scum."
"Um.... I didn't think it was necessary since why would scum night kill."
"That is a bad explanation. Obviously you killed someone so we will lynch you."
I thought I had a better chance of Jimmmm convincing lio to vote Robz instead.
But mostly I have deemed myself dead from day4 on and can't believe I lived as long as I did.
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I'm just glad my short-lived D1 interactions didn't go to waste for my team in the end.
Liopoil, 3 nights ago Yuma didn't kill. 2 nights ago Robz didn't. Last night Yuma didn't.
Honestly, neither side played the last few days particularly optimally... But you really didn't have much choice in what to do. Yesterday had to be no-lynch or (more ideally) town lynch. Today had to be no-lynch. And the way it broke down with alternating NK's there wasn't any way for you to come to that conclusion.
FWIW I was rooting for an "everybody dies" scenario, although I'm happy to have won.
I did not play optimally.
List of things that hurt me:
Night1 - night killing Galz. My suggestion of killing him was more based on the idea that he could either be scum or a really good townie player. But obviously another choice may have been better. (not as important as the other mistakes I think)
Night2 - getting suckered into NKing shraeye. If that was intentionally done, well done! You deserve major props for that.
Night3 - going after dsell... This turned the tide of the game. It just killed my morale and I wanted to just quit... That and losing TheMunch the same night... as a result I didn't put enough thought into my claim, which ended up having me claim 1-shot LR--which is the worst role in the entire world. Seriously.
Day4 - claiming Lrod was bad. I needed a better claim and I had prepared myself to claim Maquis cop to out the cop, but at that point themunch was dead and so I couldn't fake claim that as it would have resulted in my team being dead.
Night4 - no kill. This was necessary because of my claim. I wanted there to be no night kill via a Jimmmm doctoring of theorel and then I could claim Lrod in usage. But for that to happen I needed to no kill.
I don't regret killing ash nor do I regret no killing last night--that was essential form my perspective last night even though I could have won. I also do not regret bussing Glooble hard. He was scummy and deserved a lynch. Robz--do you remember early day1 when you called out my entire team for lurking... that sucked having a team of lurkers was guaranteed to attract attention, although I tried my hardest to dispel myself of that stigma.
Final thoughts:
Obvious play is obvious play. Robz saved his parter at a time when he absolutely had to do so.
I was fully expecting the players to be down to me, robz and jimmmmm day5. but when only one night kill occurred I thought I was the only player. In that situation I didn't know who would be scum, jimmmm or robz. But I felt that I would just vote one or the other and hope that the other scum would hammer and we could share the victory. But Robz not killing appeared to be the right choice.
I am never playing in another multiscum game (SK doesn't count)... This is why. Mafia is supposed to have two things going for it. 1. knowledge and 2. a greater control over night kills. Both of these features are significantly lessened in a multiscum game. I am not saying this game wasn't balanced. It was good enough and joth did a good job I think. It is that I don't like it as much. It is too much of the game that is out of my control. (Just like I don't like Dominion games with Colonies).
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I cant believe robz tracker lie held up for the entire game!!
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mostly this game was exhausting... more exhausting than any other game I have ever played. I hated the false hope of winning the game day after day after day only to consistently realize that I had no chance. I don't know. Maybe Robz felt the same way. But from the time themunch was NK I felt like my chances of winning were never greater than 10% and it just got to the point where it was so exhausting to try and fight for that small of a margin.
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I cant believe robz tracker lie held up for the entire game!!
I can't either! When I did it, I sent a PM to Joth saying "This is suicide, but I have to risk it, I can't lose both my partners by the end of Day 2."
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mostly this game was exhausting... more exhausting than any other game I have ever played. I hated the false hope of winning the game day after day after day only to consistently realize that I had no chance. I don't know. Maybe Robz felt the same way. But from the time themunch was NK I felt like my chances of winning were never greater than 10% and it just got to the point where it was so exhausting to try and fight for that small of a margin.
It was exhausting, but I sure had a lot of fun. I was acting more stressed and furious that I actually was. I was having fun. Of course, I did think I had a good chance of winning the whole way through. I was most worried yesterday that yuma, Jimm, and lio would agree to lynch me and that would be it... but see, I was emboldened by knowing that one of them was scum, I just had to figure out who that was and directed it to them. So I think my position was more self-encouraging than yuma's. I still say you played well, yuma. I really didn't think you were scum until literally there was no other explanation.
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Of course, this goes to show that my reads are generally bad. And you guys think it's scummy for me to say my reads are bad? It's the truth!!!
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And if there was ever any doubt... I am sooo much better at playing scum than I am town.
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I cant believe robz tracker lie held up for the entire game!!
I can't either! When I did it, I sent a PM to Joth saying "This is suicide, but I have to risk it, I can't lose both my partners by the end of Day 2."
Your strongest asset in that was Yuma doing such a god job of disassociating himself with the Maquis, such that if he were scum, being MU (and performing our team kill that night in place of mcmc) became much more viable.
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I cant believe robz tracker lie held up for the entire game!!
I can't either! When I did it, I sent a PM to Joth saying "This is suicide, but I have to risk it, I can't lose both my partners by the end of Day 2."
Your strongest asset in that was Yuma doing such a god job of disassociating himself with the Maquis, such that if he were scum, being MU (and performing our team kill that night in place of mcmc) became much more viable.
Yeah, I was just always discounting him as MU--since I knew he wasn't--and then I had to kind of do a back flip when I realized, "Shit, they think he's MU."
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It's been soooo long since I've won a game.
I can take a few things away from this game. I was right about Cuzz being Town. I pinned mcmc as scum Day 1. He just didn't feel right for a first-time Townie. I correctly said Robz and mcmc were on the same team. The thing I'm kicking myself over is that I should have known from joth's worrying about game balance that there were still 2 scum left. But really, how could I organise my own lynch knowing there was a chance I was throwing the game away?
Also, Cuzz was a reasonable Day 1 lynch even if I disagreed, but Eevee and Dsell were baaaad lynches.
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I do think this was one of my better town games. I caught scum on the night I died, but that was too late, I think.
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just read MU QT.
man this game was insane. There actually were quite a few hints that they were both scum. I mean, I would have lynched robz or Yuma in a heartbeat if the other wasn't also incredibly scummy. And after Jimmmmmm died N6 it was obvious that Yuma was scum. I got all excited and was like whooo, I can lynch scum and win and stuff! No townie in this game ever really seriously considered the possibility of 6 scum, so I didn't think it through all the way once it became a possibility. I didn't realize that a lot of odd scum actions could be explained by one scum knowing there was still another scum.
personally I don't mind multi-ball. However, I think it would be much better with at least a semi-open setup (e.i. knowing the make up of the teams at least)
Town actually didn't do too badly this game. 3/6 lynches were on scum, plus we got lucky in that two scum died at night, and there was one doublekill and three scum nokills (which may or may not have helped town). There were also three ICs at various points.
oh, and I really didn't know what I was doing the first few days, which was why I was all like "Ima sheep. baaaa", and very nearly got myself lynched on days 2, 3, and 4. I got a better grip on it days 4-7, but still, as town, I didn't know about a lot of stuff that happened behind the scenes.
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The biggest revelation from the MU QT...
mcmsalot's name is Ryan :o
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maquis QT?
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The biggest revelation from the MU QT...
mcmsalot's name is Ryan :o
lolol that it is. Wasn't Robz like screw it I'm calling you ryan. Whats really funny is I have always called him robz, our cousins used to make fun of me for it.
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just read MU QT.
man this game was insane. There actually were quite a few hints that they were both scum. I mean, I would have lynched robz or Yuma in a heartbeat if the other wasn't also incredibly scummy. And after Jimmmmmm died N6 it was obvious that Yuma was scum. I got all excited and was like whooo, I can lynch scum and win and stuff! No townie in this game ever really seriously considered the possibility of 6 scum, so I didn't think it through all the way once it became a possibility. I didn't realize that a lot of odd scum actions could be explained by one scum knowing there was still another scum.
personally I don't mind multi-ball. However, I think it would be much better with at least a semi-open setup (e.i. knowing the make up of the teams at least)
Town actually didn't do too badly this game. 3/6 lynches were on scum, plus we got lucky in that two scum died at night, and there was one doublekill and three scum nokills (which may or may not have helped town). There were also three ICs at various points.
oh, and I really didn't know what I was doing the first few days, which was why I was all like "Ima sheep. baaaa", and very nearly got myself lynched on days 2, 3, and 4. I got a better grip on it days 4-7, but still, as town, I didn't know about a lot of stuff that happened behind the scenes.
Yea, I was thought you were scum sooooo much. It was insane, when yuma did a nokill I remembered you suggesting nokill in the newbie game and I was like omgomgomg hes scum. Then ash cleared you and I was crazy confused. Then yuma claimed I roleblocked him, and I again went crazy because I was like okay I am scum but they don't know that and they think I am scum for a different reason then I am gah! Really fun game I thought.
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I actually didn't think you Roleblocked yuma. I thought either yuma was scum or Robz Roleblocked him, and by PoE and my earlier scumread on you I decided you must also be scum.
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Most frustrating part of yesterday:
Being suspicious to lio because of being a MU when I was in fact a Maquis and being suspicious to robz for the "marquis" thing but not so much for the jtotheonah thing when the jtotheonah mistake wasn't real and the Maqruis was.
http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/R2aJJN9Fw8n
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Most frustrating part of yesterday:
Being suspicious to lio because of being a MU when I was in fact a Maquis and being suspicious to robz for the "marquis" thing but not so much for the jtotheonah thing when the jtotheonah mistake wasn't real and the Maqruis was.
http://www.quicktopic.com/49/H/R2aJJN9Fw8n
Literally had the exact same feelings as you when you got me lynched by claiming I role blocked you.
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so no one is really talking about my jtotheonah claim. I didn't see anything about it in the quicktopic during my skim... I think that while it was clever it probably cost me the game.
If I hadn't said that we probably would have headed into a no lynch just based off how everyone was feeling. If that had happened I had already said that I was going to NK Jimmmm... Although at that point perhaps Robz would have NK me knowing that I would be NKing someone (the difference here is that I hadn't locked myself into using the LR last night after I made the jtotheonah claim). But maybe Robz would have NK lio instead and we could have both won.
Regardless it was a very fun claim to make.
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
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The one thing I was sure of was that you wouldn't shoot me, since you needed to get me lynched. So that was a relief.
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I totally lost the game for town by letting yuma talk me out of lynching Robz. (even though he later tried to talk me back into it).
What's funny is that I found yuma's claim suspicious (especially when he pre-empted his lie about why the LR was going to fail (i.e. role-blocker targeting him specifically)), but then I dismissed it because 1. stupidest claim ever (glad yuma agrees), and 2. easy to tell he's scum by the next day. So, I let that ambivalence about his alignment turn into trust which ultimately led to me as IC pushing town towards a Dsell lynch when we just should have lynched Robz.
I'm also done with multi-ball. So I will officially only play in games of 15 or less players with a single scum-team...and only one at a time. (Note: I'm counting BSG as a mafia-type game...so I won't be in any mafia games until that finishes.)
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The one thing I was sure of was that you wouldn't shoot me, since you needed to get me lynched. So that was a relief.
Oh I thought about it... For the few moments I thought you might be scum... and during the times when I despaired of even having a chance of winning, so might as well go down in flames right? But ultimately I did nothing...
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Oh and I should explain why I didn't want to lynch lio... what day was that day4? That was because I realized that for me to have a better shot of there not being a NK and justifying my use of LR that night (which would have been totally awesome as both cops would have thought I had used my LR and would have proclaimed me as an IC because they would have thought their investigations targeted me) I needed town to lynch the "last" remaining MU player. I knew that it couldn't be lio so I scrambled to try and get someone else lynched. Robz or mcmc obviously would have been better than dsell, but at that point I just didn't want lio to be lynched.
But even if I had been successful it wouldn't have mattered because there was 6 stinking scum in this game!
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jotheonah was telling us who we investigated with results, so that wouldn't have worked, even if there had only been 1 MU and we had lynched him.
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jotheonah was telling us who we investigated with results, so that wouldn't have worked, even if there had only been 1 MU and we had lynched him.
oh... that is super lame.... well I would have argued that just because joth said you "investigated" A doesn't mean that my LR didn't bounce to me and it was my alignment that you had learned. But you probably wouldn't have believed it.
Oh and what is with having 1-shot LR as a scum role... I know I had bus driver as well, but who would even consider using 1-shot LR? I mean what purpose could it possibly have that scum would want to use?
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jotheonah was telling us who we investigated with results, so that wouldn't have worked, even if there had only been 1 MU and we had lynched him.
oh... that is super lame.... well I would have argued that just because joth said you "investigated" A doesn't mean that my LR didn't bounce to me and it was my alignment that you had learned. But you probably wouldn't have believed it.
Oh and what is with having 1-shot LR as a scum role... I know I had bus driver as well, but who would even consider using 1-shot LR? I mean what purpose could it possibly have that scum would want to use?
Oh! I didn't realize you actually were a 1-shot LR...
Well roles were independent of alignment, right? And might be negative-utility. So, it doesn't have a use for scum, but it could have been useful for town. Basically, you just got the wrong alignment for it to be useful.
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jotheonah was telling us who we investigated with results, so that wouldn't have worked, even if there had only been 1 MU and we had lynched him.
oh... that is super lame.... well I would have argued that just because joth said you "investigated" A doesn't mean that my LR didn't bounce to me and it was my alignment that you had learned. But you probably wouldn't have believed it.
Oh and what is with having 1-shot LR as a scum role... I know I had bus driver as well, but who would even consider using 1-shot LR? I mean what purpose could it possibly have that scum would want to use?
Oh! I didn't realize you actually were a 1-shot LR...
Well roles were independent of alignment, right? And might be negative-utility. So, it doesn't have a use for scum, but it could have been useful for town. Basically, you just got the wrong alignment for it to be useful.
and I don't know about that... I mean all the scummy roles were in the hands of scum... rolecop, roleblocker, bus driver... all scummy roles. I thought about claiming bus driver. But I am sure you all would have just screamed "scum!!!!" and lynched me quick as lightning.
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
I would like to think that I would have realised you were both scum, but really I think you would have won. My not doing anything was pretty much IRL-based, sorry.
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
I would like to think that I would have realised you were both scum, but really I think you would have won. My not doing anything was pretty much IRL-based, sorry.
That isn't what I wanted to hear, cause now I am mad at you...
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
I would like to think that I would have realised you were both scum, but really I think you would have won. My not doing anything was pretty much IRL-based, sorry.
That isn't what I wanted to hear, cause now I am mad at you...
You can't be mad at him! In the end he lost to his wincon too! Just 'cause he wasn't able to help you meet yours (which still would've cost him his!) Isn't exactly fair... ;)
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
I would like to think that I would have realised you were both scum, but really I think you would have won. My not doing anything was pretty much IRL-based, sorry.
That isn't what I wanted to hear, cause now I am mad at you...
You can't be mad at him! In the end he lost to his wincon too! Just 'cause he wasn't able to help you meet yours (which still would've cost him his!) Isn't exactly fair... ;)
hey I have to place the blame somewhere... I am certainly not going to take the blame for losing. I played the perfect game and am blameless.
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If I thought for sure you were going to shoot, I would have shot you. But ultimately I thought your little LR PM stunt made it so you wouldn't be shooting.
exactly... well that makes me feel better. To know I was doomed either way.
And Jimmmmmmmmm what would you have done if you had more time? Your delay was seriously giving me panic attacks. I really wanted and thought you might be able to persuade lio to vote robz... but you didn't do anything all day long!!! Seriously your work and school schedule took years (well maybe days or weeks...) off my life.
I would like to think that I would have realised you were both scum, but really I think you would have won. My not doing anything was pretty much IRL-based, sorry.
That isn't what I wanted to hear, cause now I am mad at you...
You can't be mad at him! In the end he lost to his wincon too! Just 'cause he wasn't able to help you meet yours (which still would've cost him his!) Isn't exactly fair... ;)
hey I have to place the blame somewhere... I am certainly not going to take the blame for losing. I played the perfect game and am blameless.
You know what the worst part for me was? Knowing instantly when I "woke up dead" that you were scum, but having failed to mention to my teammates the previous night that my death was a surefire indicator of that.
Why? Because I didn't think I played a bad D1. I thought I did a great job of separating myself and my teammates. But there was one thing that stood out to me. One. And that is... That while I was a little bit quieter than normal (as noted I would be before the game began)... You in particular kept asking me if my "reread" was done yet (I don't recall on whom... Might have been mcmc? Irrelevant). And every time I came back to the game I was like "nah, I don't feel like doing it. I'll just talk about what is current". And every single time you would come back with "did you get around to the reread?".
I knew that you were the only person that would find me overly suspicious. And I knew that if I died it was because you talked your team into it. And I didn't say a word about it to my teammates.
And at every juncture when it seemed like you were about to win (and oh yes, there were many, especially D6), I sat there cursing myself over and over. Every time Robz deliberated over who the last scum was I died a little (more) inside.
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good
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although truth be told I didn't really have that much of a scum read on you... I mean I felt you were playing differently for sure, but I actually believed your RL claim, which as you say was very real.
But really that night kill should have been theorel. Unfortuanetly for our team I don't think we would have ever realized that ash was the cop.
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One thing that my brother I did pretty well was absolutely, positively nail Munch as Glooble's buddy. "This one's for Galz" we thought as we murdered Munch.
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FWIW, I had copped Glooble.
1-Shot Roleblocker would've been enough to make him our N2 kill, I think.
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FWIW, I had copped Glooble.
1-Shot Roleblocker would've been enough to make him our N2 kill, I think.
Oh, I forgot all about that. Interesting.
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One thing that my brother I did pretty well was absolutely, positively nail Munch as Glooble's buddy. "This one's for Galz" we thought as we murdered Munch.
yes that was absolutely devastating... when I saw that my jaw just dropped and I felt like the game was over for me...
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One thing that my brother I did pretty well was absolutely, positively nail Munch as Glooble's buddy. "This one's for Galz" we thought as we murdered Munch.
yes that was absolutely devastating... when I saw that my jaw just dropped and I felt like the game was over for me...
I investigated him that night, too.
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I do apologize if people found the game unfun or unfair. I had a great time modding and spectating, but I also totally grock yuma's frustration. I appreciate you all playing, mad props to raerae for stepping up to mod stuff, Jorbles and Glooble for flavor suggestions, and everybody for sticking with this crazy game. I'm done modding for a little while I think, but when I make my triumphant return it will be with some good ideas and an always improving sense of balance.
The obvious choice for MVP is Robz, but I need to think about it. All 3 of the Lylo survivors got there by playing really well.
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If the game wasn't completely balanced, it was certainly within the realm of balanced. Things did come down as close as they possible could.
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If the game wasn't completely balanced, it was certainly within the realm of balanced. Things did come down as close as they possible could.
[justtoflame]you considered a 16 player game with 3+3 mafia and a sk (and a VT who knew how many vt's there are in the game!) so ridiculously unbalanced it shouldnt count for any rankings, but this 15 player game with 3+3 scum was just fine? [/justtoflame]
Seriously though, actual playing of this game wasn't much for me personally, no one listened or cared about my cuzz-defense and then day2 my lurking was punished with a lynch while I was asleep (Robz was scum so I'm blaming ash who asked him to do it. what the hell dude, I said I'm going to sleep for 8 hours and be back then and you lynch me after 6 hours!? This time my claim likely wouldn't have mattered but come on!!), but watching Robz go back, forth and back again was very entertaining. it's awesome how intense these games can get!
well played all and thanks for the game, mods! Robz for mvp imo.
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If the game wasn't completely balanced, it was certainly within the realm of balanced. Things did come down as close as they possible could.
[justtoflame]you considered a 16 player game with 3+3 mafia and a sk (and a VT who knew how many vt's there are in the game!) so ridiculously unbalanced it shouldnt count for any rankings, but this 15 player game with 3+3 scum was just fine? [/justtoflame]
+1000000000
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the powers in that game were way more insane though.
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the powers in that game were way more insane though.
They were, for all sides.
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I actually felt that the lack of VT or goons in this game made it harder for scum. But I suppose it was also in a way harder from town... but I was scum so I just look at things from a scummy perspective.
Because I would have much preferred to claim VT over the horrible 1-shot LR.
Oh and joth. I think it was balanced enough as well. I would say more balanced than Arcana II--sorry eevee--because here town made far worse mistakes. Town had three mislynches in Cuzz, Eevee and Dsell and didn't use night actions effectively at all. I don't think a single town action made any impact on the game. Switch a couple of those things (a positive investigation, a doc save or one more correct lynch) and town probably would have won the game. In Arcana, town only mislynched once.
And I didn't mean to imply that I didn't have fun in this game. I had lots of fun. Lots of frustration as well. Not wanting to play in multiscum had nothing to do with this game specifically, but just about multiscum in general as I think it tends to greatly increase the variance and I just enjoy that a little less from both sides of the coin.
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Y'know I don't really think the game was unbalanced at all. The "balance" problem to me is that town had no CONTROL.
Basically in a good balanced game (IMO) town should get about 2 mislynches. (this can be more or less depending on PRs, and can grow/shrink depending on how well the town PRs/scum PRs do).
In this game, town had 0 mislynches. That's a problem.
Now, we actually lost after 3 mislynches (which I would argue is balanced), BUT scum missed 3 town-aligned NKs (Galz, Munch, and double-killing shraeye...I'm not counting Dsell's double-life here).
That means that each mislynch that town could live through required a mis-kill by scum. In other words, town could only stay in the game due to scum choices. (actually a good vig-shot by Eevee could have gotten us back into the game).
Here's how town can win the game without help from scum
(15: 3v3v9)
Town lynch MU day1
2 town die N1
(12: 2v3v7)
Town lynch MU day2
2 town die N2
(9: 1v3v5)
Town lynch MU day3
1 town die N3
(7: 3v4)
Town lynch Maquis each following day, and die at night.
End result: town wins!
Any mislynch, and town loses in the above scenario.
Scum had to kill scum for town to have a reasonable chance of winning (I would argue requiring all successful lynches is unreasonable). Now, is requiring scum to help town to win imbalanced? Not necessarily. Technically if town knows they're out of the game after a mislynch, that means that scum needs to work to keep town in the game as otherwise their incentive to lynch the opposing team is reduced, and hence it's harder for scum to win (unless they have an advantage over the other team). At some point the game is so lost it doesn't matter what town does and hence they no-lynch and scum has to NK each other.
It's interesting, and could arguably be balanced, but I think it wouldn't be fun to play town in that game (i.e. with the knowledge that I needed to depend on scum to keep me in the game).
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Yeah, it has to be Robz. The gutsy claim to save his partner, a lot of good Robzing at the end (that's my word for talking your way out of overwhelming evidence against you), generally doing an admirable job of figuring out what was going on.
THere's a Google doc, but I stopped updating the spreadsheet halfway through when all the 1-shots were used up and I could track everything in my head.
It also contains everyone's PMs though, so it's worth posting:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LvNIX_TE7YqliYQhs9SVh7S8ADWvDzv_hzcWOpC5ymQ/edit?usp=sharing
And here's the abandoned night action tracker:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjYIb0xGWh6ydEJCVHprbVN5RUdBQ1RlMEhhc0ZEMmc&usp=sharing
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So my goal in the game was to
A) Create a game that would feel like role madness without being insane by giving everyone a small power
B) Create a flavor-based game where flavor-claiming conveyed no scum-hunting advantage, without the need for fakeclaims
C) Create a game with a lot of cop investigations, yet where the cops wouldn't be game-breakingly strong
D) I liked the ambiguity factor of nobody knowing at first whether they were dealing with two scum teams or an SK and a scum team.
I think that was all pretty successful. The problem is that I got caught up in the high level planning and didn't notice the basic discrepancy, that 6/15 is pretty different then 4/15 (the other possible setup). Probably setting it up with a 3-person and a 2-person scum team would have been an option, but than I couldn't have assigned the roles randomly. The best option probably would have been to just recruit more people. If I'd run this with 17 or 18 and 6 scum, that would have been just fine, and I could have upped the scum team to 4 members if the SK rolled.
If I ran this again, I would have just made Jimmmmm a 1-shot doctor. Town didn't need any extra negative utility.
CHaracters I wanted to include but didn't (and could have if I'd run the larger version) and some possibilities for their role:
Gul Dukat, double voter
Leeta, beloved (takes an extra vote to lynch)
Morn, true VT (this would be the ultimate troll role)
Tora Ziyal, hated
Vic Fontaine, i have no idea what game mechanic would make sense for a singing hologram
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Yuma for MVP. No question. Pulling off the LR claims was tremendous. Then the ballsy play of "we're both scum, lio, you choose who wins" for sure gets him MVP. No offense to Robz, but I dont think he did anything especially MVP worth to reign in the W for his team. Like he even said, he got to watch the scum he knew existed walk himself into a corner. Robz didn't win, everyone else lost.
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But yuma made a big misstep - no killing that last night. If he had shot Robz he would have won the game.
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it wasn't that "you choose who wins". If I no lynch I win. Since Yuma claimed scum my only choice was if I though robz was a 6th scum.
Yuma was in a similar situation to me last night. He thought he was the only scum.
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I'm not in any mafia games anymore!
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I'm not in any mafia games anymore!
PM Archetype -- he needs a replacement for BMX.
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I'm in the speccy QT though and I have setup info.
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But yuma made a big misstep - no killing that last night. If he had shot Robz he would have won the game.
That is true, but I don't consider it to be a misstep as it was the correct play with the information that I had been given.
If Robz wasn't scum I would have shot him and ended up being lynched by Jimmmm and lio. Maybe I should have deduced that there was another scum out there beside me, but I think that would have been guess work at best.
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And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...
Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.
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And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...
Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.
Bus driver is scummy. LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.
I think a faker fake claim would have been best. I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real. You could have come with anything.
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And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...
Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.
Bus driver is scummy. LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.
I think a faker fake claim would have been best. I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real. You could have come with anything.
Oh I know that.... that was my biggest failing of the game honestly. But there were a couple of contributing factors. 1. I was pretty early in the claiming scheme. 2. I had planned throughout the game to claim Maquis cop. This was partially why I had strong town reads on both you and lio throughout the game, but when Themunch was NK I had to abandon that plan as it would have been suicidal to claim cop at that point. 3. After Themunch died my creativity died with him and I was scrambled and couldn't come up with anything better.... Really I should hav claimed JK. That would have been best.
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And I mentioned this above, but I still think it would have been bad for me to claim 1-shot Bus Driver. I know that roles were supposed to not indicate alignment, but bus driver is a very scummy role (as were the other scum roles of Roleblocker and rolecop)...
Would people have accepted me as potentially a town Bus driver or would I have been lynched immediately like I thought I would be.
Bus driver is scummy. LR gave you a day, and the mcmc turning out extra scummy bought you another.
I think a faker fake claim would have been best. I mean, we had bomb and beloved princess, both which turned out to be real. You could have come with anything.
Oh I know that.... that was my biggest failing of the game honestly. But there were a couple of contributing factors. 1. I was pretty early in the claiming scheme. 2. I had planned throughout the game to claim Maquis cop. This was partially why I had strong town reads on both you and lio throughout the game, but when Themunch was NK I had to abandon that plan as it would have been suicidal to claim cop at that point. 3. After Themunch died my creativity died with him and I was scrambled and couldn't come up with anything better.... Really I should hav claimed JK. That would have been best.
The hilarious thing is, when you were my secret partner in Noir, your fake claim WAS JK.
Did you think I was the Marquis cop early on?
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Not at all. Night 3 the choices to kill were dsell or theorel. Obviously theorel would have been a better choice, but you weren't ever considered because you had the potential to be a mislynch down the road.
Themunch was pretty convinced shraeye was a cop (well once we saw what themunch saw we all were). I think the takeaway from that is that more often than not cop drops are less likely to be cops than VT or someone trying to absorb a night kill.
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You could easily have claimed Bus Driver, roles were assigned randomly
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WOuld people have enjoyed this game more if the entire setup were known beforehand (all the roles, all the characters, but not which role went with which alignment). I wanted to do it that way, but I was concerned theorel or someone would work out a gamebreaking strategy given all that information.
No mod wants their game breaked.
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When trying to figure out if it was at all possible that lio was a Godfather, I regretted not asking for a list of possible roles at the start of the game.
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Also, while you're here, you said that I was an f.ds guinea pig in having the BP role. Conclusions?
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I think we've had it before actually.... Just not in anything other than a BM game (Maybe RMM? Don't think so though).
And even then I don't think it activated. :sadface:
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Well, you managed to avoid being lynched ever, so we didn't get to see the results of your role "in action" (nor did I get to see mcmc's).
But the role did have an effect on gameplay and shaping everyone's strategy, and I actually think it ended up being pro-town, insofar as you might well have been the mislynch at various points but you were spared in part because of your claim.
I think it was more powerful than I gave it credit for, but you played it well.
I was pretty disappointed shraeye didn't get to activate his IC, especially as I had fun flavor plans, but also I think he could have done some good work. But it was his own fault for over breadcrumbing, and he managed to absorb both nightkills, which is impressive.
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Well it made me fairly confident that I wasn't going to be lynched before lylo. I mean, a Townie would have to be pretty damn sure to vote for me. Maybe I should have somehow done a better job at breadcrumbing/softclaiming to absorb a NK, but saying what I said was certainly more likely to do the job than claiming straight up, which is what I was planning to do for a while.
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Hey mcmc, just wondering what you thought of my Day 1 case on you? Like, were you thinking along the lines of, "Oh no he's onto me!" or "His case is totally wrong, he's just lucky enough to have the right conclusion"?
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Oh, I was horrified about your D1 case on me. I remember you somewhat had a scum read on me in the first game I played scum. I had a "scum read" on you in that game, and you mentioned you felt like I always had a scum read on you and I was like oh crap he figured it out. Why do you think I killed you D1 in the newbie game, it was between you and raerae and who would find me out but you were a more likely power role and more likely to be able to persuade the newbies.
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Oh, I was horrified about your D1 case on me. I remember you somewhat had a scum read on me in the first game I played scum.
If I recall correctly I was a lurky co-mod in that game...
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Hey joth, I was meaning to ask, would you have allowed BP to be a scum role?
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What about one shot vig? and was galz's thing where he shows up as SK to SK cop attatched to the rolecop, or did you assign it to a random player?
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and was galz's thing where he shows up as SK to SK cop attatched to the rolecop, or did you assign it to a random player?
That was due to his character actually being a Changeling, albeit one that wasn't aligned with the Changelings.
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THe idea was that roles would role totally randomly of alignment (except for Galz's Miller thing which was tied to his character, not his role, and Jake Sisko, who was automatically town, and the cops who couldn't be the alignment they investigated.) If the teams had rolled really stupidly unbalanced, though, I might have re-rolled.
The Ferengi would be confirmed as not one alignment none of them was, even if that turned out to be the alignment that wasn't in the game.