Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Innovation General Discussion => Topic started by: dougz on December 31, 2012, 06:58:23 pm
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If you like the game Innovation, I've just made public my new site for playing it: http://innovation.isotropic.org/ (http://innovation.isotropic.org/). The interface should look familiar. :-) Like the Dominion site, it's not a particularly good place to learn the game if you don't already know it, but hopefully there will be a critical mass of people who are already familiar with it and want to play it online.
(http://innovation.isotropic.org/faq/screenshot-small.png)
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I love you so so so so so much.
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I've already been looking at this game and this makes me want to buy it simply to learn the rules and play on iso.
Dougz, you are awesome.
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I've already been looking at this game and this makes me want to buy it simply to learn the rules and play on iso.
Dougz, you are awesome.
I'm on right now if you want a teaching game. I want to try out the interface, but no one else is not already playing.
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I've already been looking at this game and this makes me want to buy it simply to learn the rules and play on iso.
Dougz, you are awesome.
I'm on right now if you want a teaching game. I want to try out the interface, but no one else is not already playing.
I'll be right on!
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Link to rules? If dougz made an online version, it has to be good. :)
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Link to rules? If dougz made an online version, it has to be good. :)
It's excellent.
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Never even heard of the game, just posting to show my support to dougz.
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Just some quick thoughts from playing (only up to age 5) of a game so far:
Blue looks a lot like purple (on my monitor, anyways).
When my opponent "draws and scores" a card, I'm shown the name of the card (when all I should get to know is the age).
I'm not sure, but does Tools[1] let me return less than three cards (for no effect)? I'm fairly certain you should only be able to return exactly 3 or exactly no cards to its first effect.
Is there a way to see the text of the special achievements?
Any thoughts on an undo button, at least for "Meld"? I've clicked cards trying to read the tooltip (in no text hand mode). Also, an "are you sure" for cards that won't have an effect when dogmaed, like demands that hit no one?
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We had a crash:
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-170510-8bf420a1.html
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Us too!
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-170942-5abec720.html
It looks like Classification[6] was calling for o.color == r.color, but I'm not a color, I'm an opponent!
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Now that's a good start to 2013!
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The best thing about Innovation on Isotropic?
http://pockettactics.com/2012/08/31/chris-cieslik-the-publisher-who-said-no-to-goko/
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Just restarted with some updates:
- fixed Sanitation, Corporations, Vaccination, Tools, Classification
- draw-and-score doesn't show card names to opponents
- popups with special achievement text
- fixed crash when a multi-card draw ends the game
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Is there any way to tell how many actions one has remaining? Not that it's necessary, except maybe to help me remember which players lose an action in a 3 player game.
Thanks for all the quick fixes!
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201212/31/game-20121231-212834-9c77cf5c.html
This game crashed when I tried to use compass to steal statistics. I played this whole game on my phone, and it worked remarkably well, except I couldn't find a way to read the other player's cards.
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This game crashed when I tried to use compass to steal statistics.
The bug was when the two cards exchanged by Compass were the same color. (It would transfer one, then get confused because the other one wasn't on top any more.)
This and a couple others (Classification again, and Fission) should be fixed in the next restart (scheduled for about 3 hours from now, in the middle of the night for me).
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dougz is so far my favourite person of 2013.
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thank you for gender-neutral pronoun options
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WIN.
Now I want to request Eminent Domain.
Edit: Also, is it time for InnovationStrategy.com yet?
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I found an extremely minor bug, I think. When someone dogmas the wheel, the log just says ...two 1's, as opposed to ...draws two 1's.
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BGG is down, can't find the rules.
/PANICS.
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I won my first ever game and I had no idea what I was doing! ;D
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-192907-f74ed66f.html (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-192907-f74ed66f.html)
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Before I go and read the rules, I always heard that it is very luck dependant.
Can someone say something about that? Is it a game which you are able to play competitively?
And if yes, dougz, will you implement a leaderboard?
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Before I go and read the rules, I always heard that it is very luck dependant.
Can someone say something about that? Is it a game which you are able to play competitively?
And if yes, dougz, will you implement a leaderboard?
The cards are reasonably well-balanced, but as every card is different there's definitely a significant luck aspect. Nonetheless, the choice of what actions to use when ends up being based not just on your hand and board, but the cards your opponent has in play, the cards in their hands, the cards they've scored, etc.
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Before I go and read the rules, I always heard that it is very luck dependant.
Can someone say something about that? Is it a game which you are able to play competitively?
And if yes, dougz, will you implement a leaderboard?
I don't think the luck element detracts from the game any more so than it does in Dominion.
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I have to say, this game feels a lot less fun to lose than Dominion does. In Dominion, well, any draw could be a critical Province buy, so you know you can come from behind. In Innovation, I was sitting looking at my opponent's engine working better than mine, not knowing what to do, and because of all his splays which I just hadn't had the chance to make, anything I could do would help him probably as much as it helped me (the card draws in return made it just marginally better).
Maybe it's just inexperience talking though :P.
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I have to say, this game feels a lot less fun to lose than Dominion does. In Dominion, well, any draw could be a critical Province buy, so you know you can come from behind. In Innovation, I was sitting looking at my opponent's engine working better than mine, not knowing what to do, and because of all his splays which I just hadn't had the chance to make, anything I could do would help him probably as much as it helped me (the card draws in return made it just marginally better).
Maybe it's just inexperience talking though :P.
I think it might be. Imagine if you were playing Dominion with as little experience as you have with Innovation, and your opponent was playing 3 Torturers a turn when you haven't bought a Gold yet. There's certainly almost-unwinnable situations in both games, but usually they're caused by a choice you made (or didn't make) than by luck of the draw.
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/01/game-20130101-213315-5498a273.html
Calendar[3] is missing the word "Draws".
Game crashed when winning with Self Service[10].
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Before I go and read the rules, I always heard that it is very luck dependant.
Can someone say something about that? Is it a game which you are able to play competitively?
And if yes, dougz, will you implement a leaderboard?
I think it's a little chaotic in 3p/4p, but supposed to be great fun 2p. But I've only played once.
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I have to say, this game feels a lot less fun to lose than Dominion does. In Dominion, well, any draw could be a critical Province buy, so you know you can come from behind. In Innovation, I was sitting looking at my opponent's engine working better than mine, not knowing what to do, and because of all his splays which I just hadn't had the chance to make, anything I could do would help him probably as much as it helped me (the card draws in return made it just marginally better).
Maybe it's just inexperience talking though :P.
I think it might be. Imagine if you were playing Dominion with as little experience as you have with Innovation, and your opponent was playing 3 Torturers a turn when you haven't bought a Gold yet. There's certainly almost-unwinnable situations in both games, but usually they're caused by a choice you made (or didn't make) than by luck of the draw.
Torturer is probably the nastiest single card in terms of beating on unsuspecting opponents.
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I tried to play a solitaire game and just ended up in limbo. Is this intended or did I miss something?
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I managed to play a solataire game yesterday.....it wasnt much fun!
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I have also played Solitaire and let me tell you, solitaire just doesn't work for Innovation like it does Dominion. 2+ player it is great though.
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Is solitaire at least good for figuring out the interface?
I got into one game with someone with the intent of not finishing the game. We were just going to figure things out a bit.
I clicked on a card name, but then nothing else seemed to happen. The other person was responsive in chat at first, but then he stopped answering me. Maybe he got booted, and I was stuck there wondering what to do.
I'll have to try again later.
Any advice on how to navigate through the interface? I don't want to slow up someone's game with unnecessary uncertainty. I'll have plenty of that as I take in the different cards.
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Yeah, you can use solitaire to check out the interface, but only certain parts of it. You won't be able to see how an opponent's information is displayed, you won't be able to check out action sharing and things like that. As long as you've played Innovation before in some form or another you'll be fine to just play against an opponent. There's usually a fair bit of downtime between card plays even with experienced players as you need to check your cards and your opponent's tableaux and double check the symbol counts and cards in hand and scores before you make each click anyway.
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Is solitaire at least good for figuring out the interface?
I got into one game with someone with the intent of not finishing the game. We were just going to figure things out a bit.
I clicked on a card name, but then nothing else seemed to happen. The other person was responsive in chat at first, but then he stopped answering me. Maybe he got booted, and I was stuck there wondering what to do.
I'll have to try again later.
Any advice on how to navigate through the interface? I don't want to slow up someone's game with unnecessary uncertainty. I'll have plenty of that as I take in the different cards.
Solitaire is good enough to figure out how to use actions, but you can't use solitaire as any sort of benchmark like you can in Dominion, because of all the missing interaction.
During setup, you'll start with one card in play and one in hand; I think that you're describing choosing the starting card.
To play a card from your hand, click the card in your hand. To use a dogma ability of a card in play, click the card in play. To draw a card, click the "Draw button". You get 2 actions a turn (Except the first player on their first turn).
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Is solitaire at least good for figuring out the interface?
I got into one game with someone with the intent of not finishing the game. We were just going to figure things out a bit.
I clicked on a card name, but then nothing else seemed to happen. The other person was responsive in chat at first, but then he stopped answering me. Maybe he got booted, and I was stuck there wondering what to do.
I'll have to try again later.
Any advice on how to navigate through the interface? I don't want to slow up someone's game with unnecessary uncertainty. I'll have plenty of that as I take in the different cards.
Solitaire is good enough to figure out how to use actions, but you can't use solitaire as any sort of benchmark like you can in Dominion, because of all the missing interaction.
During setup, you'll start with one card in play and one in hand; I think that you're describing choosing the starting card.
To play a card from your hand, click the card in your hand. To use a dogma ability of a card in play, click the card in play. To draw a card, click the "Draw button". You get 2 actions a turn (Except the first player on their first turn).
This isn't quite true. During setup you each start with 2 cards in hand and simultaneously choose one to be your starting "in-play" card. For some reason I can't really tell, for THIS selection, you click text with the card names, rather than the cards themselves to choose the one to put in play. After all players have chosen, then it's as Drab says.
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No, when I start a solitaire game, I just see blankness. In the middle is "score: 0 [] achievements: none hand: show text" and nothing else. I see pictures on the left but clicking on them doesn't do anything. I have no way of interacting except the Exit button.
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Found the problem -- didn't disable flashblock for the innovation.isotropic.org subdomain.
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I have no idea how to play this game but am now interested in learning solely because I can play it on Isotropic ;D
Thanks for expanding my gaming horizons dougz!
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Found the problem -- didn't disable flashblock for the innovation.isotropic.org subdomain.
Ahh, disabling flashblock, the solution to many of lifes problems.
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I found solitaire to be enough to figure out most of the rules along with the rulebook here: http://www.asmadigames.com/innovation/InnovationRulesWeb.pdf.
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I'm willing to teach any time I'm on; the more people who know how to play, the better.
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One issue I noticed is that it's a lot easier to shoot yourself in the foot with this than dominion. If you play IRL you can be like "I'm going to play this card. Oh wait, you also have seven crowns? Nevermind I'll do something else". But here its just like "nope now your screwed"
(no real way to fix this other than being more careful. Its still fun and awesome and such. It just takes a little more focus to play than dominion)
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Just tried this out and it is really interesting.
But I got this error message in the last game:
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/02/game-20130102-181931-a9149945.html
My opponent was just going to win because of 20 Light Bulbs.
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Feature suggestion: Add a warning for when you're going to be activating a dogma that your opponent has a higher score in (a demand that will fail or dogma that will be shared). It could work just like entering the buy phase with unused actions, buying something with unused treasures, and the resign button.
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Feature suggestion: Add a warning for when you're going to be activating a dogma that your opponent has a higher score in (a demand that will fail or dogma that will be shared). It could work just like entering the buy phase with unused actions, buying something with unused treasures, and the resign button.
I don't think this is a good idea. Using Dogmas that will be shared is often a good move. Demands that do nothing, possibly, and Dogmas that will do nothing for you, probably.
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Feature suggestion: Add a warning for when you're going to be activating a dogma that your opponent has a higher score in (a demand that will fail or dogma that will be shared). It could work just like entering the buy phase with unused actions, buying something with unused treasures, and the resign button.
I don't think this is a good idea. Using Dogmas that will be shared is often a good move. Demands that do nothing, possibly, and Dogmas that will do nothing for you, probably.
Sure, it can be a good move, but it's useful to know that it's going to be shared and/or if the demand will fail.
Finding dogmas that will do nothing for you, though, is going to be almost impossible to program. Just like Iso Dominion doesn't tell you not to play a ninth Highway in a Province game when your deck is empty. (Go ahead, find me an edge case.)
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Feature suggestion: Add a warning for when you're going to be activating a dogma that your opponent has a higher score in (a demand that will fail or dogma that will be shared). It could work just like entering the buy phase with unused actions, buying something with unused treasures, and the resign button.
I don't think this is a good idea. Using Dogmas that will be shared is often a good move. Demands that do nothing, possibly, and Dogmas that will do nothing for you, probably.
Sure, it can be a good move, but it's useful to know that it's going to be shared and/or if the demand will fail.
Finding dogmas that will do nothing for you, though, is going to be almost impossible to program. Just like Iso Dominion doesn't tell you not to play a ninth Highway in a Province game when your deck is empty. (Go ahead, find me an edge case.)
You have a boat-load of gardens hidden away on a native village mat, and the rest of your hand consists of say 3 rats, and you are planning on buying the last province (or gardens) this turn, and gaining out the rest of the rats will be JUST enough to bump the gardens to the next level.
You can do a similar thing with vineyards.
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I haven't yet played since my failed attempt to collaborate with someone on working out the interface, but I thought I saw an icon tracker that keeps count of your opponents' icons. Would it be easy to train yourself to check the icons? You can compare your own in the same way, right?
If I'm correct about the icon tracker, then perhaps formatting could change based on which dogma you're highlighting. When you hover over an "I demand" then every opponent with fewer icons than you becomes highlighted green. When you hover over "You may" then every opponent that matches or exceeds you becomes highlighted red. Or some such system. It may just be a matter of training ourselves. Visual cues could help with that possibly?
I'm still not all that familiar with the interface, so I hope I'm not talking out my ass here.
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I haven't yet played since my failed attempt to collaborate with someone on working out the interface, but I thought I saw an icon tracker that keeps count of your opponents' icons. Would it be easy to train yourself to check the icons? You can compare your own in the same way, right?
Yes, there is a convenient chart showing how many of each icon each player has.
I was so happy to see that the color icons for the cards were added (I can finally tell blue from purple!), so I wouldn't be a fan of adding more color differentiation tests, especially between red and green. :-\
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It doesn't have to be color-coded necessarily. Those that would benefit from it could be italicized while those who suffer from your demands are bolded.
Or underlined.
Or has a little arrow appear by the name.
Any little distinguishing marks, really. If it's too busy with color, there are other ways.
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One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.
Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead. I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work? :D
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One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.
Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead. I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work? :D
There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.
Also... 9.0.1??? How far behind is your workplace?
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One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.
Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead. I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work? :D
There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.
Also... 9.0.1??? How far behind is your workplace?
He's a Lawyer, everything they do is validated with examples from the past....
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One suggestion I have: display which way the piles are splayed, if any. Sometimes it is not immediately obvious, especially if the tucked cards have no symbols revealed by the splay.
Also, it still doesn't work on FF 9.0.1, so I had to use IE instead. I'm sure it works on Chrome at home, but what's the point of Isotropic if you can't play it at work? :D
There actually is a display, a little left/right/up arrow on the top card.
Sweet, thanks.
Also... 9.0.1??? How far behind is your workplace?
Listen, I just got upgraded from Firefox 3 in December 2011. I'm grateful for whatever I can get.
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile). I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/03/game-20130103-105011-8cde9824.html) due to this :(
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile). I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/03/game-20130103-105011-8cde9824.html) due to this :(
If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.
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While we're making suggestions, you need to implement a swear filter so that I don't have to be subjected to naughty words like "mountain," "Sega," and especially "boogie." Please protect my innocent ears because I don't want to be responsible for what online content I can see.
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile). I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/03/game-20130103-105011-8cde9824.html) due to this :(
If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.
Maybe the better way to put it would be to prompt: "What do you want to meld first", as opposed to "What do you want to meld". I didn't realize that Classification wanted me to meld two cards, just thought it wanted one to meld.
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Another thing that would be nice: when it says "meld all cards", you should be able to put them in order, rather than clicking on one (which then counterintuitively puts it at the bottom of the pile). I just lost what would have been a thrilling comeback (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/03/game-20130103-105011-8cde9824.html) due to this :(
If I'm "melding all cards" I would expect the first card I click on to get melded first. But maybe that's just me. I imagine the "putting them in order" might get a little weird with the different colors.
Oh okay, yeah that makes sense. It should show you the dogma effect in a red rectangle at the top right of your screen, but its really easy to miss that.
Maybe the better way to put it would be to prompt: "What do you want to meld first", as opposed to "What do you want to meld". I didn't realize that Classification wanted me to meld two cards, just thought it wanted one to meld.
oooh. looks like doug added a warning icon that appears when you hover over a card whose dogma effect the another player can share. nice touch
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Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...
After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.
That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!
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After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that chess is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.
???
Maybe I'm just biased because I like Innovation so much.
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Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...
After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.
That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!
It's very dangerous to draw this conclusion from AI's. Try playing on Isotropic.
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Has anyone tried Jeff Till's single player version (can be found on BGG) to play with AI? Interestingly things come out at similar timings...
After about a hundred games with the AI I think it is pretty obvious that innovation is not as deep a game as dominion. The AI is just... pretty good. And it is hard to find a good strategy to beat the AI by a significant margin or at all... at least for me.
That being said, playing 3p online should be fun!
It's very dangerous to draw this conclusion from AI's. Try playing on Isotropic.
It's also dangerous to comment this without playing with that AI! Try that!
(I've tried playing on Isotropic.)
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So I am currently wavering, after playing a few games of innovation on isotropic (Dougz you are the man), between innovation being a great game and an incredibly luck based game. I feel like there has to be something I'm missing.
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I think Innovation is a great game. Yes, there's the luck inherent in a shared deck of unique cards, but there are other great games that share that. (Race for the Galaxy, for one.) I don't think Innovation hits exactly the same demographic as Dominion does, even though they're both card games, but I'm okay with that.
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I'm experiencing a bit of diminishing returns with innovation. Hopefully I can find something to grasp to soon.
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Innovation is far less replayable than Dominion. Its fun to build up your board, experience the higher level dogma effects, and play every once in a while but its not the kind of game you want to play several games in a row of or even more than a couple of times a week.
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What I like about Innovation is the tactical considerations, something you don't get in Dominion. I find a cool new tactical trick (like Fermented Bicycles) about four or five times per game.
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In what sense is something like Fermented Bicycles good design though? I mean, if I flip a Fermentation and a Bicycle in the same game, yeah, I'm probably going to notice the relationship. What makes that fun? You're not putting any sort of skill to the limit seeing something like that.
I'm not sure if the appeal you're referring to is the Timmy sort of joy of getting to exercise such a powerful effect, which I would expect to have diminishing returns, or if you think that finding 2 card combos is an interesting game mechanic (perhaps you either disagree that Fermented Bicycles is obvious or Fermented Bicycles isn't an ideal example, but one you could grab)
Like, subtler combos are what makes things interesting. And the tactics, of which there is a lot.
I think I'm having a bittersweet experience with it because it seems like the lower ages are better designed than the higher ages. I'm not whipping out some sort of golden rule about "win the game" effects, I think they can be good, but just in general the 9's and 10's feel kind of unstable to me.
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To be clear, I don't think Timmy-style enjoyment is "more legitimate" or "less legitimate" than any other, my only point was that if that's the kind of appeal the combos bring, you could generalize the statement somewhat to include 9's and 10's
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I like it because it's the joy of discovering something new, you know? Fermenting/Bicycle is not an immediately obvious combo, especially since Fermenting is not typically such big drawing card.
It's a little bit like RFTG, where the game is trying to figure out what combos you can make with what you have.
OTOH I think the 9's and 10's are deliberately designed to be very unstable, and the game is intended to provide that kind of wacky ending if you get that high up.
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I mean, if I flip a Fermentation and a Bicycle in the same game, yeah, I'm probably going to notice the relationship.
Could somebody with knowledge drop it here? What does Fermentation do? What does Bicycle do? Where can I find a database of cards?
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Could somebody with knowledge drop it here? What does Fermentation do? What does Bicycle do? Where can I find a database of cards?
Fermentation's an age 2 yellow that lets you draw a [2] for every 2 leaves on your board.
Bicycle's an age 7 green that lets you exchange your hand with your score pile.
I wish I knew of a database of cards, though. I just remember those ones.
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Looks like you wont get one either....
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/659305/cards-list
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Hmph. Maybe innovationstrategy would be a bit more difficult then.
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Could somebody with knowledge drop it here? What does Fermentation do? What does Bicycle do? Where can I find a database of cards?
Fermentation's an age 2 yellow that lets you draw a [2] for every 2 leaves on your board.
Bicycle's an age 7 green that lets you exchange your hand with your score pile.
I wish I knew of a database of cards, though. I just remember those ones.
The key is that Fermentation usually doesn't draw you very good cards because it's drawing [2]'s. But in games where the [2]'s and up empty, it becomes a stupidly strong card if you have good leaves (in my game it was "Draw five [10]" at the end of the game). It further snowballs if you have Reformation to tuck it all (a simulation of Industrialization, albeit much earlier in the game).
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I wish I knew of a database of cards, though. I just remember those ones.
The FAQ on BGG has a list of cards for the base set:
http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/67894/innovation-official-faq-and-cards-list
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Wow! Echoes of the past is up!
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Wow echoes is up
Thank you
But can I have the chart showing how many of each icon each player has back?
Thank you :D
edit: nevermind...... I found where it is, but still hard because my monitor is too small lol
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Sweet game, thanks!
Ran into a freeze here, he used industrialization to tuck a bunch of cards including the first 8, then the game froze when he dogma'd canning. http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201301/14/game-20130114-151155-5f843836.html
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Perfume allows the attacker to choose, rather than the defender, amongst the valid targets.
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Can someone link the innovation AI? I can't find it on BGG.
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Can someone link the innovation AI? I can't find it on BGG.
After a brief attempt I am yet again reminded that "Innovation" is a terrible term to search for.
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If I ever make a board game, it's going to be called something like quiggly beans.
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Not tested but is this what you are looking for?
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/896090/innovation-computer-game-for-windows
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Just played my first game on isotropic and this implementation is fantastic. thanks Dougz!
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I'm hoping this is the best bug report thread: Dice does not reveal the card with a bonus that triggers the meld.
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Been playing this a bit, kind of want a leaderboard now :).
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/leaderboard/
Only 2-player games are counted, as it doesn't seem well-defined how to rank the non-winners for more than 2 players. It's using the same Trueskill parameters that I have for Dominion; not clear that those are right for Innovation. Also, the ranks won't show up on the server itself yet (i.e., in the lobby).
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That is ... quite a gap between Hideyoshi/yaron and everyone else.
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No! My suckitude is quantified :(
And I have played way too much innovation already..
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I bet if I start playing now I could make it into the top 200 within a day.
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/leaderboard/
Only 2-player games are counted, as it doesn't seem well-defined how to rank the non-winners for more than 2 players. It's using the same Trueskill parameters that I have for Dominion; not clear that those are right for Innovation. Also, the ranks won't show up on the server itself yet (i.e., in the lobby).
How long ago does this leaderboard reflect? I've played a dozen games or so, but not within the last couple weeks.
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http://innovation.isotropic.org/leaderboard/
Only 2-player games are counted, as it doesn't seem well-defined how to rank the non-winners for more than 2 players. It's using the same Trueskill parameters that I have for Dominion; not clear that those are right for Innovation. Also, the ranks won't show up on the server itself yet (i.e., in the lobby).
How long ago does this leaderboard reflect? I've played a dozen games or so, but not within the last couple weeks.
I assume it's the same as the dominion leaderboard, if you haven't played in a while you'll drop off it.
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How long ago does this leaderboard reflect? I've played a dozen games or so, but not within the last couple weeks.
It's built with all eligible games since Jan 1. (2-player where both players are logged in.) Like the Dominion one, if you don't play for a week you disappear from the board (though your stats are still known if you show up and play again.)
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Everytime I have a look at this game to see if anyone I know is on for a game... there's not. Dougz, can you sort that out please?
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It seems increasingly active to me, maybe you should be less picky about who you play with?
On a separate note, how would people feel about Oars, Feudalism, and shared Masonry (can't think of any others, in base) being a choice even when you have only one option? The strategical implications on Oars, especially, are notable. If someone has two fives in hand and you hit them with Oars, and isotropic autoselects the card, then you know it's not worth it to use it again.
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I agree, there is quite some info leakage as the game is implemented right now.
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Well, to provide some background, the first game dougz put on isotropic was Dominion, and he implemented it with info leakage, and no one really cared, because the tactical implications were relatively small, and in many cases you would slow down the game a lot to give people the opportunity to pretend they had a Moat to block your Minion, but elected not to use it, and blah blah. In innovation I think the tradeoff is more towards removing the leaks.
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Bug report: If I have to refresh the page, I end up seeing the last two turn logs but not my hand or tableau, so I can't do anything.
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Oh! The gamelogs show the final gamestate now!
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I have also seen the same bug that AJD has reported. I hope that resigning doesn't affect ladder ranking. Does it?
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Just played a game (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/06/game-20130306-082712-4ae773b1.html) against ehunt and noticed a slight error of the ingame logging of Mapmaking.
On turn 10 I received a message something along the lines of "You transfer Domestication[1] from your score pile to Thisisnotasmile's". It did, in fact, get transferred to ehunt's score pile (as it should have), it was just logged wrong. The end game log is correct though.
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Like the Dominion site, it's not a particularly good place to learn the game if you don't already know it, but...
... also in the spirit of Dominion, you can win your 3rd game not knowing fuck all about the game.
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Can we have automatch against registered opponents only please?
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I am finding that the client is completely unusable for me :(
Firefox 13.0, I observe the following:
- My hand never shows up. When I toggle 'show text' for my hand, I get "'hand' is not defined" in the console.
- Sometimes the text area for chat does not show up; I have a text box where I can type messages to send, but I do not get them echoed, nor do I see any responses from my opponent. This is accompanied by similar 'not-defined' Javascript exceptions in the console.
- Both in the lobby and in game, a 'syntax error' is reported on every AJAX response (I think this is just a matter of the MIME type setting, since the responses look like valid JSON and seem to be getting parsed fine).
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It's beta :( Try Chrome?
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Just played a game (http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/06/game-20130306-082712-4ae773b1.html) against ehunt and noticed a slight error of the ingame logging of Mapmaking.
On turn 10 I received a message something along the lines of "You transfer Domestication[1] from your score pile to Thisisnotasmile's". It did, in fact, get transferred to ehunt's score pile (as it should have), it was just logged wrong. The end game log is correct though.
Yeah I see that all the time, too.
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Kobukson has a typo, it says 'return' instead of 'returned'.
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Can we have automatch against registered opponents only please?
And maybe Echoes? :D
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Bug report: The piles on the left hand side of the screen don't get updated until the end of the action, even if something happens to them before then.
This is relevant e.g. with Physics: Let's say there were 3 cards in the 6 pile when your opponent dogmas and shares Physics. You draw those three, which happen to have a duplicate and so you have to return all your cards, which includes some other 6's. You look at the display, which still shows 3 cards in the 6 pile, so you return cards at random, not ensuring that the first 3 cards you return have a duplicate for your opponent to draw.
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Bug report: The piles on the left hand side of the screen don't get updated until the end of the action, even if something happens to them before then.
This is relevant e.g. with Physics: Let's say there were 3 cards in the 6 pile when your opponent dogmas and shares Physics. You draw those three, which happen to have a duplicate and so you have to return all your cards, which includes some other 6's. You look at the display, which still shows 3 cards in the 6 pile, so you return cards at random, not ensuring that the first 3 cards you return have a duplicate for your opponent to draw.
This is greatly annoying and I hope there's a way to fix it. It's really hard to know under what conditions the age piles are updated since it's quite obvious that they're sometimes not updated immediately.
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Bug report:
Translation melds the only card of a color immediately. This is an oversimplification, Universe, World, and Empire care about the order in which you meld the cards from Translation.
Encyclopedia shares this bug iirc.
Classification uses similar behavior, but it's not an oversimplification in that situation.
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There is a typo on shrapnel, it says "Transfer the bottom color of its color from my board to your board!"
Obviously, it should be card of its color.
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Log Bug report:
http://innovation.isotropic.org/gamelog/201303/31/game-20130331-124126-f947b6c3.html
I activate Mysticism, sharing it. The log shows my opponent processing the effect, then says I achieve Empire when my board start hasn't changed according to the log. The board state at end of game at the top of the log shows that I indeed have the required icons, but that I have a Quantum Theory that isn't accounted for in the log. Now I clearly drew and melded the Quantum Theory off of Mysticism, but the log doesn't actually say that.
Also, melding Quantum Theory off Mysticism is kinda silly, although I suppose there are aspects of Quantum Theory that are more or less mystical.
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Minor bug report: When I share card X that says "you may return a card" (don't remember which one it was, because it was earlier today and I didn't remember to report it immediately), and my opponent chooses to return nothing, it plays out correctly, but in the log, my opponent choosing to return nothing is written after me completing the dogma action.
EDIT: There's more:
23:18 yariv: sorry, can't play
23:18 yariv: some bug, can't see (and therefore play) my tableu
23:18 Awaclus: tried refreshing?
23:19 yariv: or hand, for that matter
23:19 yariv: did, not working
23:19 yariv: so, sorry, leaving
This happened after his initial meld, before his first turn.