Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Online at Shuffle iT => Dominion General Discussion => Dominion Isotropic => Topic started by: dougz on September 06, 2011, 02:20:15 pm
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A comment in the "optimizing your level" thread prompted me to look at logs from the first couple days of veto mode:
6353 games with veto
422 Saboteur 96 Navigator 43 Apprentice
420 Possession 92 Stash 42 Venture
411 Sea Hag 90 Horn of Plenty 42 Remodel
384 Young Witch 85 Secret Chamber 42 Quarry
364 Witch 84 Outpost 42 Island
357 Mountebank 82 Forge 41 Library
324 Pirate Ship 76 RANDOM 40 Moneylender
302 Familiar 76 Adventurer 39 Royal Seal
301 Swindler 75 Coppersmith 38 Woodcutter
298 Torturer 73 Envoy 37 Conspirator
295 Tournament 71 Ironworks 36 Council Room
284 Ghost Ship 71 Expand 35 Salvager
277 Goons 71 Baron 35 Lighthouse
268 Treasure Map 68 Spy 35 Laboratory
264 Minion 68 Bishop 34 Pearl Diver
247 Militia 67 Moat 33 Trading Post
242 Thief 66 Hoard 33 Harem
205 Ambassador 64 Bank 33 Great Hall
190 Smugglers 63 Harvest 32 Warehouse
188 Black Market 62 Horse Traders 32 Monument
183 Alchemist 61 Explorer 29 Walled Village
168 Gardens 60 Remake 28 Merchant Ship
159 Embargo 59 Wishing Well 27 Wharf
152 Jester 59 Loan 26 Haven
148 Scrying Pool 58 City 25 Hamlet
146 Chapel 57 Lookout 25 Cellar
140 King's Court 56 Trade Route 24 Mine
137 Golem 56 Grand Market 24 Caravan
137 Duke 54 Throne Room 22 Courtyard
132 Masquerade 54 Feast 21 Steward
131 University 54 Bridge 21 Pawn
128 Cutpurse 53 Peddler 20 Upgrade
123 Bureaucrat 52 Nobles 20 Menagerie
117 Chancellor 49 Scout 20 Fishing Village
112 Fortune Teller 49 Hunting Party 19 Shanty Town
110 Rabble 48 Workshop 18 Farming Village
108 Apothecary 48 Vault 17 Worker's Village
106 Transmute 48 Tribute 17 Mining Village
105 Tactician 47 Native Village 15 Smithy
104 Philosopher's Stone 47 Mint 14 Village
103 Vineyard 47 Herbalist 14 Festival
102 Counting House 46 Talisman 11 Bazaar
100 Contraband 45 Treasury 9 Market
97 Fairgrounds 43 Watchtower
No real surprises here: people dislike attacks and like villages.
Note that "RANDOM" is the option (added this morning) to have it
randomly select a card to veto for you, for people who don't care.
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Thanks for the stats, and thanks for the cool new mode even if it doesn't really suit my personal preferences. I am sure those who want to play rated games but don't have fun playing with certain cards will greatly appreciate it.
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I like the "Random" option. I'll probably use it a bunch.
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Interesting results. I think this is a really interesting dominion variant, but I doubt it will have the effect of just allowing people to play auto-match with !possession, !saboteur or something. Having 20 cards, vetoing and choosing a random 10 of the remaining ones would mimic that much better. When you see 12 cards, and know basically exactly how the kingdom is going to turn out, you can veto much more strategically, and it ends up being part of the game rather that just a pre-game deck selection modification.
I see 4 classes of cards getting vetoed (assuming strategic vetoing):
1. If you think you're better than your opponent, you veto cards that increase variance like tournament, treasure map, and possession.
2. If you see a strategy you like but that would be stopped by a particular kind of attack, you veto the attack.
3. If you are not confident in your ability to compete in an major engine-building game and there is only 1 village or 1 +buy card, you just veto that single card and force a low-action count "big money" game.
4. If you're not good at colony games, veto a prosperity card.
The one I'm worried about is 3. Out of 12 cards, a single village or +buy card can be a pretty common occurrence, so it may be possible for people to force a lot of less interesting games. However, from the results, it appears that is not happening so far. So we'll see :)
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.
I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.
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I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.
I actually don't think I would classify veto mode as a variant, strictly speaking. I would define variant as something other than what's given in the official rules. The rules state you can choose 10 kingdom cards in whatever manner is agreed upon. Veto mode certainly falls within that category.
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.
I'll nevertheless disagree with you on tournament. I do think that it increases variance - there are a lot of situations where there's not a lot going on, and it's a race to the followers. There's some skill in that, but not a ton. Now, this doesn't come up nearly as often as most people make out, but it strikes me as higher variance than the average card. And just because it's your best card doesn't mean it's not high variance.
Possession I'm with you on. In fact I think it's much lower variance than your average card.
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Maybe this is sub-optimal play, but I've been tending to veto a card that I don't think will be bought. I actually love playing with most of the powerful, controversial cards.
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I actually don't think I would classify veto mode as a variant, strictly speaking. I would define variant as something other than what's given in the official rules. The rules state you can choose 10 kingdom cards in whatever manner is agreed upon. Veto mode certainly falls within that category.
I can see how it's a variant. The rules don't imply that you should try to select Kingdom cards you're likely to win with, as part of the game. But when the vetoing is put into the structure of the game like this, I think it's totally legitimate to strategically choose which card to veto.
I've enjoyed veto mode so far. My only problem with it is that it basically takes one of the most interesting cards -- Possession -- out of the game, because my opponent will always veto it when it appears.
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I veto whatever card I'm unlikely to use effectively.
You can view stats based on when a card is available? how can I view my best card? I bet it's vineyard.
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Seeing stats on how you play with certain cards available is a feature bolted onto the Popular Buys page (yes, that's a terrible interface, sorry).
http://councilroom.com/popular_buys?player=popsofctown would list yours, on the right-hand side... but apparently you've never played under that username.
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Then I was right! Vineyard is tied for my best card!
I play under the name pops.
My effect with bureacrat is like -0.2 and my effect without is like -3. Is the correct interpretation that I'm not picking up on games where bureacrat is worth buying?
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I play under the name pops.
Maybe you should update the "Isotropic username" field of your profile then ;)
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The only card i will veto for variance-hate is treasure map. I feel it's the silliest card in the game
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I veto cards that are most likely to cause the opponent to go into analysis paralysis and take forever -- Pawn!! ARGH!!!
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I'm very tempted to Veto library if there's cellar, warehouse, or hamlet on the board. Cycling with those and library are valid strategies, but they take so-friggin-LONG in terms of pure number of clicks required to go through an average turn.
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I tend to just veto whatever strategy was dominant in the last game I just played.
And possession. UGH possession.
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As a newb, I like vetoing, for one thing, it really helps me come to understand which cards work and do not work together. I've only played a few veto games, but I like them.
For the record, I tend to veto cards that reward card hoarding, and tend to want to keep any card that lets me trash. I like dense decks and really dislike garden-chases and the like. I like it when I can card count.
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Not sure if other's agree, but I'd prefer if veto mode used a simultaneous reveal, so that you didn't know what the opponent had veto'd until you'd veto'd (in cases of double-veto on the same card, the other veto should be random).
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I can't remember the last time I played a CHAPEL game on veto mode. I can understand people vetoing attacks, but Chapel? Then again, I'm probably one of the very few who are actively vetoing Laboratory and villages...
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I can't remember the last time I played a CHAPEL game on veto mode. I can understand people vetoing attacks, but Chapel? Then again, I'm probably one of the very few who are actively vetoing Laboratory and villages...
I'm that guy vetoing Chapel. I veto cards that (almost) always get bought: Chapel, Caravan, Mountebank, etc. The more obvious buys are also to my mind the more boring buys, which is why I like messy boards without clear dominant strategies...
...and which is why I usually am able to talk myself out of vetoing Possession despite how frustrating it can be to be Possessed.
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It would be nice to see an update on the stats.
I think i see more people using random lately. My veto order is Scrying Pool, any card I've seen in the last 3+ games in a row (even if I'm winning using it), then random.
Scrying pool is one that just takes sooooo long since it seems a good engine with them takes a lot of them. It's the spy effect that makes it so slow. Individually, many cards take more time on there own. But when someone's playing 5 scrying pools every turn, usually just to buy another scrying pool/spy/pawn/pearl diver/wishing well... Then I get tired of it.
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.
I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.
Since this topic comes up so often - i decided to check:
discounting prizes, your tournament is actually your #5... following (Harvest, Plenty Horny, Courtyard and Remake). The thing in common there? Most of them are cornucopia cards that you've played with ~30-40 times (vs. 150+ for your others) My guess is that as a smart fellow - you probably picked up the use of cornucopia faster than your average player, and as a result have a disproportionate win rate with them on the board - and that as everyone else catches up and you play more games - they will regress closer to your mean of overall win rate - which is around 1.35 +/- 0.03. (your tournament is 1.51 +/- 0.29 - as of 9/30/2011)
I checked - and I have a similar skew at the top of my rankings, although for me its Hunting Party and Horse Traders.
Now I don't disagree that you clearly now how to play tournament better - its my WORST win % given avail - i win (but lower % than normal) when I buy it, and i lose HORRIBLY when I don't.
Care to share your magic tips? (Perhaps a topic for another post)
On the subject of vetoing, I'm finding myself torn on the subject. On one hand - i enjoy the ability to have some control of the board - from the 2p position I can zap things that are likely to hose me over heavier (torturer, cutpurse, militia) - so I can protect my precious rating... on the other hand, it almost says: "you don't get to play with possession any more". Even though I dislike alchemy, it's part of the dominion landscape, and I want to make sure that I at least pretend like I can play with all of the cards. (In the case of tournament - clearly I can't)
I have previously banned veto mode when auto matching, but I'm thinking about turning it on... I hate you militia!
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The fact that it's a Cornucopia card and Cornucopia is new had occurred to me, don't worry, but if it were true that Tournament is always a luck-intensive crapshoot it should be at the bottom of the stack in win rate for a good player.
My stats have changed between that post quite a while ago and when you looked them up, of course. I mean, you said "actually..." in response to something that was completely true when I said it :P
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The fact that it's a Cornucopia card and Cornucopia is new had occurred to me, don't worry, but if it were true that Tournament is always a luck-intensive crapshoot it should be at the bottom of the stack in win rate for a good player.
Maybe you're not a good player...
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jk