Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion Articles => Topic started by: DrFlux on November 16, 2012, 07:49:46 pm
-
I just realized that bishop had not been written about in some time, and that I was winning a lot with bishop. So I thought I'd share some insights. So here it is, let me know what you think:
Bishop is a high skill card. Sometimes it is a must buy card, and sometimes it is nearly useless, and it is often tricky to figure out if you should buy bishop, and when. Usually you DO want bishop: unless there are no villages and there are other desirable terminals, having a bishop mid/late game is almost always good, as it can give you control of the game. Cannibalizing a gold on the same turn as buying a province is often a winning move.
When don't you want bishop? I would say there are 3 rough cases:
- There are no villages, and there are stronger terminals, particularly terminal draw. Without extra cards and actions, you are less likely to be able to match up cards you want to trash with your bishop late-game, and the loss of economy hurts more. Also, getting rid of starting estates is very nice for the terminal draw player.
- Very fast, strong combos: If the game is about playing KC on bridges, or about playing multiple Goons together, a couple of extra points from Bishop probably won't matter, and you should just focus on comboing as quickly as possible, using your opponent's Bishop to your advantage.
- Cursers: if you are cursing an opponent, it is often counterproductive to give them the opportunity to trash those curses, especially early in the game. Exceptions to this do occur, as occasionally a game can get drawn out by curses to the point that its worth it to snag those extra VP from Bishop, eventually. Figuring out when to buy bishops in this case is quite subtle.
When do you want to buy bishop? Something counter-intuitive about bishop is that it is usually NOT an good early game trasher. Yes, I'll say it, opening with bishop is often bad (exceptions discussed below). Early game, bishop has two big things working against it: First, it only gives you $1, which can strongly hamper your ability to buy $5 and $6 cards. Second, [it gives your opponent just as much trashing as it gives you]. In fact, its a little better for your opponent, because they have 5 cards to choose from, and you only have 4. So the trashing is basically a wash, and you should not consider this an advantage. In other words, early game you can view bishop as a card that gives you only $1,+2VP when you draw it with an estate, and $0,+1VP when you draw it with a copper and no estate. This is TERRIBLE.
Bishop is still great, but it is a trasher you usually want to buy mid or late game. This is especially true in engine games, where the free trashing is even more useful to your opponent than it is to you. As the game, goes on, bishop's benefit to your opponent steadily decreases. I often buy it the first $4 I get after turn 3. As they buy more stuff, and perhaps trash cards, there is a greater chance they will have nothing to trash. And even trashing copper is painful sometime midgame, as it can keep you from buying critical cards. However, in engine games bishop is still useful to YOU in the midgame as a trasher, as you are drawing a large selection of cards. You can even trash junk that was useful early game, but is less useful now, like spice merchant or potion, and it will give you a very nice VP boost.
Obviously, bishop is good with the cards any trash-for-benifit card is: peddler, boarder village, haggler, hoard, these all shine with bishop, especially the first three, as they are easily incorporated into engine decks. Even less flashy ways of gaining cards such as ironworks or even talisman can be used to gain bishop fodder in a tight deck. Good dark ages combos include Rats and Market Square and Fortress. Specific interactions that HURT bishop include "draw up to X" cards. For example, Jack of All Trades can allow the jack player to trash a card, and still draw back up to 5, and likely draw an even better card than they started with.
What makes bishop unique, like goons, is that it can be used to gain a large amount of points without putting green into your deck. So while it can be used to canibalize your deck and get a last minute VP boost, it can also be used to create a very slim deck, often called the "Golden Deck". The cannonical golden deck is one gold, two silver, a bishop and a province. If you get to this point, you can trash a province and buy a province every turn, gaining 5 VP and drawing the same 5 card hand. This may not be as sexy as gaining 150 points with Goons, but in many games this is very strong. However, getting to the "golden deck" is slow in many games. The best start for the golden deck is bishop/chapel. There are other circumstances where you can get to the golden deck, but few others where I would force it. Just keep in mind that if your deck is getting really small, it is an option.
A few comments about the "golden deck". First is that once you go for it, you are basically stuck, so you better be sure its the strongest strategy. You are limited to 5 VP per turn, so strong engines that can buy multiple provinces a turn WILL likely beat you. Second is that there are often stronger variations on the golden deck, for example, I played a game where I bought border villages, gaining markets, while my opponent went for the canonical golden deck. While they got the early lead, at some point I was able to play two bishops per turn, trashing two BV/gold, and buy two replacements. I was able to avoid buying victory cards to stretch out the game, which is another strategy available with bishop that you want to take advantage of if you know you can win the long game. Fortress produces a super-powered alternate "golden deck", with four bishops and four fortresses in your deck, you can snag 12 VP per turn, every turn, with no luck involved, by repeatedly trashing the same fortress.
Works with:
- chapel
- border village, farmland
- gainers: hoard, market square, rats, ironworks, tunnel, etc
- fortress
- engines
Doesn't work with:
- opponents "draw to X" cards (Jack, Watchtower, Library)
- very strong combos which generate more VP (goons, bridge combos)
- opening (in many games)
- curses or ruins
- the golden deck does not work against strong engines
-
I don't know if I agree with it being a poor opening card. I've found on ~80% of boards where it's good, you want it as an opener. Why? While the opponents benefit is large with free trashing, between the VP bonus you get, and the lack of flexibility they get leads to you being better off than they are. As in, while it's harder for you to get to $6, if they are trashing from their hand, they aren't getting to $6 either. And if they are getting to $6, then the trashing from their hand isn't happening.
-
I find it surprisingly hard most of the time to ignore Bishop and win. There needs to be some really fast ramp-up strategy not contingent on trashing for it to work. Colonies are another good indicator too.
-
The first step with Bishop is to realize this is NOT an early game trasher. Yes, I'll say it, opening with bishop is almost always bad, even terrible (exceptions discussed below).
This is actually a more difficult judgement. The points from the bishop are worth the free trashing if the opponent cannot harness the better deck. This might be the case when there are no strong terminal cards for the opponent to use and there is very little opportunity cost in taking the bishop instead of a different terminal. You are correct though that there are many times when the free trashing will accelerate the opponent's deck a great deal. The classic example would be that a smithy+treasure deck should beat a bishop+treasure deck since the smithy can harness the honed treasure deck so well. There are however situations where the trashing given to your opponent isn't so generous. This might be when the opponent has a trasher of their own like salvager, a card that can use estates/copper such as a baron, or is looking for alternative scoring such as gardens.
Multiplayer bishop games can be doubly tricky since it becomes harder to work out how quickly decks will slim down or spend upwards when multiple cards may be trashed from hand each turn. There can certainly be games where the opponents dictate the style an speed of the game with the bishops and you need to adjust your play accordingly.
-
I think Fortress deserves to be mentioned, either as an example alongside peddler and border village, or in the discussion of golden decks.
-
Yeah, Bishop+Fortress is just amazing. Can't leave it out.
-
Opening with Bishop is almost always bad? Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.
-
My vote is in between:
When bishop appears
20%- you don't want it
50%- you want it, but not as an open
30%- you want to open with it
I reserve the right to totally change that opinion. But that's my instinct based on a terrible memory of fakes played.
Also agree it's one of the highest skill cards. I know it took me a long long time to figure out how to play it effectively.
Ed
-
In the "conflicts with" section, you might consider including draw-up-to cards, especially Library. Taking advantage of free trashing from your opponent's Bishop? Valuable. Taking advantage of free trashing and decreased handsize? Priceless.
-
Perhaps "almost never" is a bit too strong, but I think Ednever has the percentages about right. I think what I needed to comment on is the fact that I see people ALMOST ALWAYS open with bishop. And I think most of the time, that is somewhere between slightly wrong, and plain awful. What does buying bishop first turn gain you, as opposed to buying it 3rd or 4th turn? Flexibility - no. Economy - no. All it gains you is a slight headstart in VP, and most of the time that does not matter.
People saying that "using your opponent's bishop will keep you from getting to 5 or 6 too": this is just wrong. You can have a silver or a caravan in your hand instead of your bishop, and you WILL reach 5 more often. You can trash an estate from your opponent's bishop for free, and you can always choose not to trash if you have 5 and no estates. With cards like Wharf or Minion or Lab or even Haggler at 5, it is just really important to hit 5, and I think people underestimate this.
People are free to disagree with this idea, but I will claim that rethinking bishop is one of the reasons I've gone from rank 38 to rank 43 recently: I win a lot of games with bishop.
My vote is in between:
When bishop appears
20%- you don't want it
50%- you want it, but not as an open
30%- you want to open with it
I reserve the right to totally change that opinion. But that's my instinct based on a terrible memory of fakes played.
Also agree it's one of the highest skill cards. I know it took me a long long time to figure out how to play it effectively.
Ed
-
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.
I also disagree that smithy-treasure is the most important example of you want to worry about with bishop. I think the times you really want to avoid bishop is when there is something like Kings-Court Bridge on the board, any your priority is the combo, and the trashing will DEFINITELY help your opponent.
The first step with Bishop is to realize this is NOT an early game trasher. Yes, I'll say it, opening with bishop is almost always bad, even terrible (exceptions discussed below).
This is actually a more difficult judgement. The points from the bishop are worth the free trashing if the opponent cannot harness the better deck. This might be the case when there are no strong terminal cards for the opponent to use and there is very little opportunity cost in taking the bishop instead of a different terminal. You are correct though that there are many times when the free trashing will accelerate the opponent's deck a great deal. The classic example would be that a smithy+treasure deck should beat a bishop+treasure deck since the smithy can harness the honed treasure deck so well. There are however situations where the trashing given to your opponent isn't so generous. This might be when the opponent has a trasher of their own like salvager, a card that can use estates/copper such as a baron, or is looking for alternative scoring such as gardens.
Multiplayer bishop games can be doubly tricky since it becomes harder to work out how quickly decks will slim down or spend upwards when multiple cards may be trashed from hand each turn. There can certainly be games where the opponents dictate the style an speed of the game with the bishops and you need to adjust your play accordingly.
-
I also disagree that smithy-treasure is the most important example of you want to worry about with bishop. I think the times you really want to avoid bishop is when there is something like Kings-Court Bridge on the board, any your priority is the combo, and the trashing will DEFINITELY help your opponent.
If it is not the most important then it is certainly most frequent. The number of games where I've used a terminal draw card to beat an opponent using bishops is staggerlying high. I don't think I've had a more successful simple strategy ever in Dominion than playing terminal draw cards against bishops, particularly after Prosperity was released.
-
Let me start from the premise that I don't play Bishop well.
The biggest struggle for me is that, if I don't open Bishop, there doesn't seem to be a good opportunity to get one later. If I pass on Bishop, I usually hit $5 in the next shuffle, and I can't justify passing on a power $5 for a Bishop. Getting the early $5 seems especially important because Bishop is slowing my opponent's deck-building at first, so I want to press that edge. But then, I never get a Bishop and lose on VP chips.
So, how should I think about this balancing act?
-
I think its interesting that the most frequent times to NOT buy bishop are terminal draw situations where there is no engine, and very powerful engines. The exact opposite ends of the spectrum.
Let me start from the premise that I don't play Bishop well.
The biggest struggle for me is that, if I don't open Bishop, there doesn't seem to be a good opportunity to get one later. If I pass on Bishop, I usually hit $5 in the next shuffle, and I can't justify passing on a power $5 for a Bishop. Getting the early $5 seems especially important because Bishop is slowing my opponent's deck-building at first, so I want to press that edge. But then, I never get a Bishop and lose on VP chips.
So, how should I think about this balancing act?
Well, I think that the ideal solution to that is to have multiple buys or other gainers to get your bishop, perhaps along with a cheap engine component. I find an unlucky 4 happens pretty often between 3-6 anyways. But sometime you need to make tough choices. That's what makes dominion interesting.
-
EDIT: I just added mention of Fortress, and some analysis by DG. I also more cleanly organized the article.
-
There are several big questions that determine if, when, and how much Bishoping you want.
1. How long is the game going to last? Golden decks notwithstanding, Bishop is better as a long haul card. The upper bound on a Bishop deck is 60 VP per turn (10 Bishops hitting 10 Colonies thanks to Grave robber chicanery); even with more reasonable setups, every turn you play Bish, you get at least 1 VP and that can be winning. A longer game, like with say colonies or some attacks (e.g. Spy, Ghost ship) make Bish a better buy. Longer games can make early Bish better and can make Bish viable as a simple trasher. Remember, game length changes radically if only one of you two is going for provinces - take this into account when you decide on Bish or no. For instance in a Rabble game, you can build a hideously complex Bish engine - the other guy will take forever to gain the last 2 provinces if he is being mass Rabbled every hand.
2. How many Bishops can my deck support? Multiple Bishops require not just +action, but also +gain in the long run. Sometimes, yeah you can just keep chomping on coppers & curses for +1 VP, otherwise, you need a source of card gain. This is why Bish/Fortress is just phenomenal - +actions and a "new" 4 coin card to trash for 3 VP. If you also have +cards or some other trick to make it work (e.g. Kc/Scheme), it can be well worth it to build up to 12 coin & Use 2 Bish to pound out 8 VP a turn with a simple engine and 1 +buy. Other options include on gain freebies (e.g. Border village, Duchess), card gainers (e.g. Haggler, Iw, University), and on trash freebies (E.g. Squire, Catacombs, Market Square).
3. How many points per turn can my opponent snag, is it a flat, decreasing or increasing curve - and can I affect it? With no +buy/gain out, provinces score 6 VP/turn at best; Bish can allow you to hit 11 VP/turn (at the price of cannibalizing Peddlers/Plats or playing cute with Bridge/Grave robber). Variable Alt-VP can be an easy win or a death knell for Bishops. Gardens are a perfect example, against a Gardens deck you can Bishop all day ... but unless you buy and trash Gardens, you may have a hard time ending the game before the Garden deck reaches 50 cards. Other cards can be more complicated Feoda can be counter productive without +buy - the opponent can buy them specifically to let you pinata them or they can go honest for a silver deck; buying Feoda means that you get a silver flood, which may or may not be useful. It is quite possible to get into rock-paper-scissors territory where Bishop beats Feodum, Province beat Bishop, and Feodum beats Province. Extremely strong Fairgrounds setups (e.g. Black Market) and Silk Road setups (e.g. Great Hall, Iw) can mean that even if you acquire & trash half the key cards (e.g. 4 Ghall, 3 Slkrd, 3 Estate) you can still lose (the other player gets 4 Ghall, 5 Slkrd, 8 Estate - giving a score of 32 - 29 if you Bish all the green and nothing else).
4. Will other parts of my deck help my opponent's trashing or hurt it? Discard attacks are nasty on a Bish player, but you can always choose to discard the Bish & keep the money to buy something key. Discarding attacks from Bish player against someone drafting off the free trash is a bit harder - they don't know if you will Bish or not and hence may be reluctant to keep Estates/Coppers. Likewise, Masq transitioning into Bish can be quite strong - if they trash their only weak card they don't know if you have a Masq to play or not. Council room, Governor (for cards), and vault (if the opponent has something they can play to draw bacK good cards like Golem or Lib) can all help my opponent to fish for cards to trash.
Pguy: If you need a Bishop - pay 5 or even 6 for it. Card values change from game to game and even within decks. If there is some killer card there you need more, then get that. But we have many, many games where you have to "overpay" for cards.
Lfn: You are right about Lib, Watchtower, and Jack all helping out the other guy with Bish, but on the other hand, Bish drops your own hand size by 2 cards (barring Fortress), if you can use the Lib after the Bish, you draw 2x as much as them. Trading an action for card isn't a gimme, but I wouldn't go so far to say that Bish actively hates Lib or Wt if there are villages present. Getting into Bish mid game (when the opponent is no longer well placed for it), can make for very strong Bish/Lib or Bish/Wt engines. Jack, on the other hand, is so terribly fast and Bish just makes it faster.
A few other Bish combos:
Farmland. Using Bish on Farmland is the same as hitting gold (i.e. not that bad), but Farmland also lets you gain 2 other value into your deck (e.g. Estate -> Bish or Copper -> Hamlet). If you are planning on double Bish, Farmland can be a good match.
Bridge/Highway/Quarry - buy low/Bish high. Spending 4 Coin on an Adventurer, but still getting 4 VP for trashing him is great. spending 4 coin on 2 and getting 8 VP for trashing two is even better. Cost reduction can have a multiplicative effect when you are running multiple Bishops.
Something of conflict is Tournament: Followers loses some of its power if you are playing Bish a lot; likewise if you are going golden deck, the other guy gets unblocked Trnment every turn, easier shots at lining up Prov/Trnment and a monopoly on Prizes; additionally Trnment (like Count or Altar) can greatly increase the points per turn the other guy can nab.
-
Bishop will antisynergize with Highway because you'll likely have to play some to get Bishop + trashed card in hand. Also probably true for some, but not all, Bridge strategies.
The Golden Deck definition in the article is really narrow. In general, a deck that relies on Victory cards for scoring will decline in potency as the game drags on during the greening phase. Bishop lets you avoid that, either by providing you a means to victory without Victory cards or by supplementing your score without clogging your deck.
You also don't need to have a 5-card deck to have what is effectively a Golden Deck. You just need to be able to draw your deck (or enough of it) every turn, Bishop a green card, and buy it back.
-
Bishop will antisynergize with Highway because you'll likely have to play some to get Bishop + trashed card in hand. Also probably true for some, but not all, Bridge strategies.
The Golden Deck definition in the article is really narrow. In general, a deck that relies on Victory cards for scoring will decline in potency as the game drags on during the greening phase. Bishop lets you avoid that, either by providing you a means to victory without Victory cards or by supplementing your score without clogging your deck.
You also don't need to have a 5-card deck to have what is effectively a Golden Deck. You just need to be able to draw your deck (or enough of it) every turn, Bishop a green card, and buy it back.
If you notice, I mention two other "golden decks" that don't have 5 card hands.
However, there is a good question here: if you draw your whole deck, say with smithies and villages, gain some stuff with ironworks, and then trash it with bishop, is it a "golden deck" ? With most draw decks, there is some chance of "missing". I think what makes "golden decks" unique is that there is NO chance of missing. So I would call Fortress x 4, bishopx4 a golden deck, but I wouldn't call the following "golden", because you could "miss" Fortress x 6, bishop x 6, village x 2, smithy x 2.
Or is it just the fact that you don't need to buy VP what makes it "golden"?
Probably I should add some discussion of this in the "golden deck" section. "Almost golden" decks and draw decks that utilize bishop in a similar manner are important.
Interestingly, Fortress+bishop is the only combo I know of that doesn't require you to buy/gain cards to gain a large number of points. Which means you could conceivably get into get into a situation where nether player wants to buy any other cards to disrupt their combo, but the score is close... sort of a chess-draw.
-
Interestingly, Fortress+bishop is the only combo I know of that doesn't require you to buy/gain cards to gain a large number of points. Which means you could conceivably get into get into a situation where nether player wants to buy any other cards to disrupt their combo, but the score is close... sort of a chess-draw.
If this occurs, the leading player can buy the remaining fortresses, then another draw card, preferably something like spy, and then cross their fingers and pile the bishops.
However, this is difficult to pull off, especially if fortress is the only village, and harder if it's the only cantrip.
It's also a bit risky, and one might want to just call it a draw.
If there are cards like caravan, market, or lab on the board, this situation can still proceed toward the endgame.
Although everything I just said may be totally incorrect, I think it would be very rare that fortress/bishop would leading to an unending game.
-
Although everything I just said may be totally incorrect, I think it would be very rare that fortress/bishop would leading to an unending game.
I've only played this combo on Goko, and you're right. They game usually just freezes within a few rounds regardless.
-
Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
-
Interestingly, Fortress+bishop is the only combo I know of that doesn't require you to buy/gain cards to gain a large number of points. Which means you could conceivably get into get into a situation where nether player wants to buy any other cards to disrupt their combo, but the score is close... sort of a chess-draw.
If this occurs, the leading player can buy the remaining fortresses, then another draw card, preferably something like spy, and then cross their fingers and pile the bishops.
However, this is difficult to pull off, especially if fortress is the only village, and harder if it's the only cantrip.
It's also a bit risky, and one might want to just call it a draw.
If there are cards like caravan, market, or lab on the board, this situation can still proceed toward the endgame.
Although everything I just said may be totally incorrect, I think it would be very rare that fortress/bishop would leading to an unending game.
I think you are right that its rare, but its the first case in dominion I know of where something like that being possible.
-
However, there is a good question here: if you draw your whole deck, say with smithies and villages, gain some stuff with ironworks, and then trash it with bishop, is it a "golden deck" ? With most draw decks, there is some chance of "missing". I think what makes "golden decks" unique is that there is NO chance of missing. So I would call Fortress x 4, bishopx4 a golden deck, but I wouldn't call the following "golden", because you could "miss" Fortress x 6, bishop x 6, village x 2, smithy x 2.
Or is it just the fact that you don't need to buy VP what makes it "golden"?
Probably I should add some discussion of this in the "golden deck" section. "Almost golden" decks and draw decks that utilize bishop in a similar manner are important.
There are two goals to a Golden Deck (and some don't even have both goals):
1. Perpetually churn out VP without taking on cards that increase the probability of not being able to do so
2. Hasten the game's end and reduce the amount of available VP for the opponent
You can do 2 without having to do 1, and that's probably what most Golden Decks try to achieve. In that case, you can have an engine that draws maybe with 90% reliability, but that's fine - if you end up trashing 2, 3 of the Provinces/Colonies while you're already ahead, then you probably don't mind so much if you happen upon that 10% chance to not draw your entire deck.
-
Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.
-
Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.
Thank you, finally another voice of reason. Not to mention that you have almost no chance of getting TWO fives turn 3 and 4, which what, maybe 10-15% of games if you open silver/silver? To get two fives with bishop-silver, you need to draw them together along with one estate and two copper, have a hand of five copper, and have the two estates in your last two cards. That's got to be sub-percent level.
-
Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.
Thank you, finally another voice of reason. Not to mention that you have almost no chance of getting TWO fives turn 3 and 4, which what, maybe 10-15% of games if you open silver/silver? To get two fives with bishop-silver, you need to draw them together along with one estate and two copper, have a hand of five copper, and have the two estates in your last two cards. That's got to be sub-percent level.
What 5's are you really going to want to pick up 2 of turn 3 and 4, if you also wanted to open a Bishop?
Plus, that's no different than say... remake or any other trasher. ALL of those cards give up slight early buying power in order to have superior buying power later. Here, while the "trash" benefit might be equal, the pay off benefit between the two players isn't. If your opponent has SCCCC when you play your bishop, sure they can trash a copper, but then they give up gold. So, it's not as simple as "You won't get two 5's"
-
particularly after Prosperity was released.
Well, I am sure you had an immaculate rate against Bishops before that.
-
Bishop silver gives you a good chance of hitting 5 first, especially if your opponent does take the advantage to trash. With a strong 5 card like minion I'd say it's worth opening with.
Opening Bishop/Silver is worse for hitting 5 than opening Copper/Silver.
Thank you, finally another voice of reason. Not to mention that you have almost no chance of getting TWO fives turn 3 and 4, which what, maybe 10-15% of games if you open silver/silver? To get two fives with bishop-silver, you need to draw them together along with one estate and two copper, have a hand of five copper, and have the two estates in your last two cards. That's got to be sub-percent level.
What 5's are you really going to want to pick up 2 of turn 3 and 4, if you also wanted to open a Bishop?
Plus, that's no different than say... remake or any other trasher. ALL of those cards give up slight early buying power in order to have superior buying power later. Here, while the "trash" benefit might be equal, the pay off benefit between the two players isn't. If your opponent has SCCCC when you play your bishop, sure they can trash a copper, but then they give up gold. So, it's not as simple as "You won't get two 5's"
I DON'T want to open bishop. I don't even care if I pick it up till turn 6 in many cases. And you CANNOT compare bishop to other trashers, because it also lets your opponent trash. Opening with it DOES NOT give you better buying power (than your opponent) later. Steward lets you trash 2 cards, for instance, which is completely different than trashing 1 estate, and letting your opponent trash an estate too (and 2 VP). For the first one I'm willing to take a hit in the number of 5's I hit, for the second, I'm not. Opening bishop gives you VP advantage, NOT deck advantage.
5's where I would want 2 of, turns 3 and 4: Wharf, Minion, Stables, Laboratory, Hunting party. I'm sure there are others, but those come to mind. Particularly with something like wharf, the extra buys will make it easy to buy a bishop later.
Sometimes I'll even just skip the bishop for a good 4: say ironworks is on the board, I'd rather start with ironworks for cheap engine pieces, and then use the ironworks later to gain a bishop, then bishop fuel. Or start caravan, trying to hit 6 for hoard, buying bishops later.
I just think getting your engine going is often more important than the few piddly points you gain from a bishop opening.
I'm not saying its always clear cut. To be honest, a case like minion - with no other trashing, and say a village as well, and no extra buys: its a close call. I just still think, even in that case, that opening silver/silver is ever so slightly better.
Mostly I think people just go on autopilot and open bishop, and its wrong much more often than people think.
-
I would comment, that if something breaks the symmetry of trashing between you and your opponent, it does make bishop better, specifically cards that depend on estates.
If your opponent buys trader/baron/salvager/remodel, they are looking to trash estates. This does make opening bishop slightly better, assuming I don't want any of those other cards. Of course this doesn't really work for remake/steward/ambassador, because they probably aren't going to buy anything the turn they draw those cards, so the copper trashing is still free.
-
Bishop will antisynergize with Highway because you'll likely have to play some to get Bishop + trashed card in hand. Also probably true for some, but not all, Bridge strategies.
The Golden Deck definition in the article is really narrow. In general, a deck that relies on Victory cards for scoring will decline in potency as the game drags on during the greening phase. Bishop lets you avoid that, either by providing you a means to victory without Victory cards or by supplementing your score without clogging your deck.
You also don't need to have a 5-card deck to have what is effectively a Golden Deck. You just need to be able to draw your deck (or enough of it) every turn, Bishop a green card, and buy it back.
Bishop only anti-synergizes with cost reducers if you must play the Hwy/Brg/Princess/Quarry before the Bish. The obvious counterexample is a reliable Scrying Pool deck (e.g. Scheme, Scavenger, Haven). You draw everything, play your villages to play Bish, and then do your cost reduction to gain cards for next time. This limits you to action cards, but that can have a higher payout than going for a golden deck. If you can reasonably draw your target cards (villages, Bish, expensive junk) without needing the +card from Hwy, then Hwy isn't going to muck up Bish. Each Hwy is multiplied by the number of buys you intend to use, once you are using 3 buys Hwy is strictly better than gold in a Bish deck. This can allow you to keep building for more reliability and more payout - letting you have a better (though still crummy) shot at winning if you fall behind in the Hwy race.
I'd go so far to say that MOST Brg decks can't anti-synergize with Bish in this manner. Golem, Menage, the odd Tr/Kc/Prssn deck, and Limited draw can all require you to play a Brg early, but otherwise, you just Bish whatever it is you want to toss and only play your Brg's after you're done playing Bish. Really, play your villages, then your draw, then Bish everything, and then lastly play cost reduction. Quarry is, of course, even better at not anti-synergizing (as only Black Market is an issue).
-
Completely disagree with the above post. You will very often be required to play the Highway to draw your entire deck, not draw your entire deck and then play Highway. You'd have to have an extremely overbuilt deck for the latter to happen. Furthermore, if you have that much buying/gaining power in your deck, then why hasn't the game already ended in a Province or Duchy megaturn by either player?
Quarry works because the cost reduction necessarily comes after the action phase (but having to trash Actions is a pretty weak move unless there are a lot of $6+ Actions in the kingdom or ways to get huge handsizes and play tons of Bishops on cheaper Actions). Bridge and Princess work except for when using a draw up to X engine. But Highway only works if you're playing against someone who clearly doesn't know what he's doing.
-
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.
I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.
And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).
-
Completely disagree with the above post. You will very often be required to play the Highway to draw your entire deck, not draw your entire deck and then play Highway. You'd have to have an extremely overbuilt deck for the latter to happen. Furthermore, if you have that much buying/gaining power in your deck, then why hasn't the game already ended in a Province or Duchy megaturn by either player?
Quarry works because the cost reduction necessarily comes after the action phase (but having to trash Actions is a pretty weak move unless there are a lot of $6+ Actions in the kingdom or ways to get huge handsizes and play tons of Bishops on cheaper Actions). Bridge and Princess work except for when using a draw up to X engine. But Highway only works if you're playing against someone who clearly doesn't know what he's doing.
You completely disagree? Really. You disagree that Bridge or Princess can't simply be played after the Bishops? You disagree that Hwy is strictly better than gold if the cost reduction is going to be used on 3 +buys? You disagree that there are extremely reliable setups (like Scrying pool/Scheme) where the draw on Hwy really is superfluous? You seriously doubt that if you can reliably draw your villages/Bish/targets without using the +cards on Hwy that it works? That seems odd.
I'm not saying that Hwy must combo with Bish, but that it, under some circumstances, can combo with it. Yeah, I get, if you have +buys, and good reliable draw you can start hitting double or treble Hwy turns and then megaturn the Provinces/Duchies ... however not every setup allows for that. Talisman and Hop can both allow you to keep churning out golds or plats to Bish, but can't work with green cards. You can play +buy denial (particularly with some cheap +buy like Hamlet) and leave the opponent with only 3-4 buys ... and a deck where he can't hit a province the next turn if he megaturns now. Other options - like Swindler, Masq, or Rabble can make it hard for the opponent to seal the deal. Bish opens a lot of strategy space because the third victory condition (owning half the possible VP) never arrives. The Bish player can just keep dragging out the game longer and longer in hopes of overcoming an early deficit.
In any event, the simplest case is when you pull Hwy out of the Black market deck. With only one Hwy in play, but multiple Bish firing, you find that it synergizes quite well and an optional lack of +1 card isn't too terrible.
Yeah, we get Hwy (and heck Brg) will OFTEN have better megaturn than Bish strategies. So what? Chapel stands a phenomenal chance of allowing you to pair it with a strong attack/fast megaturn setup, Iw can play rushing with Gardens, Silk Roads, or possibly even Feoda/Fairgrounds, gainers (like say Hop) can work wonders in megaturn decks. The point is, cost reduction does work with Bish in a way that is more than the sum of the two cards. It isn't the strongest, most obvious combo, but we should be talking about combos that aren't blindingly obvious. Nobody really needs help spotting chapel/Bishop or Kc/Bridge/Lab, subtler things are worth talking about.
Running around with a deck that can trash two 4 coin cards each turn is better than a Golden deck. Running 3 & 4 Bish either directly or off Tr/Prssn/Kc is even stronger and we do people a disservice by not pointing out that this is possible and when it can/should be done. Cost reduction can be a big plus for making it viable to build up to monster VP gain each turn, but it also increases the chances that a fast megaturn or 3-pile rush will win the game ... it is worthwhile to consider both sides of that equation.
-
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.
I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.
And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).
Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal
However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).
-
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.
I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.
And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).
Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal
However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).
But if you open with a bishop, you obviously don't want 2 wharves Turn 3 and 4 anyway. And in the case of Minion, the early thinning is important enough that you want to start ASAP. And HP? An HP deck doesn't need trashing anyway, so that example's false. And lab? Early labs aren't that strong anyway.
I really can't think of a case where I want a Bishop, but I don't want it turn 1/2 because I want two 5's turn 3 and 4. So the fact that you can't reach 5 both turn 3 and 4 isn't a big deal.
-
In most cases, I'm not arguing to ignore bishop, just not to open with. I would say silver/silver is better in many cases.
I doubt there are that many cases of Silver/Silver being better. Bishop is definitely not a high-priority opener even for strategies centered around Bishop, but if you're going for Bishop, it has to usually be better to get one at the opening instead of a second Silver. One Silver still gives you some buying power, and the marginal benefit of the second Silver is often not as good as getting the extra VP or two out of the Bishop.
And while I also agree that it's not a good trasher, I don't think you can completely ignore that aspect of it. Even though the maximum potential trashing is equal for you and your opponent(s), it's not equivalent to not trashing at all. You have to consider who benefits more from the trashing. It is often your opponent, but sometimes, as in the case of the basic golden deck, it's you. Another example is if you're eventually going to be going for Bishops, having yours early to get points from your Estate while your opponent trashes his for no points makes a difference (which is why I think Bishop/Silver is often going to be better than Silver/Silver).
Okay, good points you made:
1. in the long run the silver will be worse than a bishop (in many games)
2. the effect of the trashing is not always equal
However, I maintain that you will hit $5 less often turns 3-5 with your bishop/silver opening. I would rather risk having fewer bishops early than having fewer Wharfs early. If there are no amazing 5s but still an engine, or you are going for the golden deck, I can see opening bishop/silver. As you say, having a good 4 can make it even easier to not open bishop though (caravan).
But if you open with a bishop, you obviously don't want 2 wharves Turn 3 and 4 anyway. And in the case of Minion, the early thinning is important enough that you want to start ASAP. And HP? An HP deck doesn't need trashing anyway, so that example's false. And lab? Early labs aren't that strong anyway.
I really can't think of a case where I want a Bishop, but I don't want it turn 1/2 because I want two 5's turn 3 and 4. So the fact that you can't reach 5 both turn 3 and 4 isn't a big deal.
wharf -- sure, IF you open bishop, you don't want two wharfs, but I wouldn't open bishop, because I'd rather be playing wharfs early, not bishop. I'd buy a bishop later, exactly when being determined by whether I'm playing wharf/engine or wharf/money
minion -- you are falling into the same trap as usual, the trashing helps your opponent just as much as you, so you can't think of that as a benifit. In fact, with minion, it helps them MORE, because they have the option to use minion to draw 4 new cards AFTER using your bishop to trash. You might not have that option if you don't have a village.
Also, opening bishop lowers your chance of getting ANY 5's turn 3 and 4:
http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/ (http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/)
You have 34% chance of getting NO 5's with bishop/silver, as opposed to only 8.8% of missing 5's both turns with silver/silver.
That is roughly 20-25% of games where I will get a wharf early, and you won't. I WILL win the majority of those games. The question is whether you will win enough of the other games to make up for it.
I would argue I would also win most of the ~15% of games where I get two early wharfs, and you have a bishop and a wharf.
I would guess that all other games you might have a 55/45 advantage, which is not enough to make up for the other lost games. These are complicated questions, but I can't believe that you would never consider opening silver/silver and waiting to buy bishop.
-
Since when did we assume that Wharf was in every kingdom?
We are talking about power $5s here that make Bishop a poor open. Not all games have power $5s. I can maybe think of Mountebank, Witch, Wharf, HP, and Governor as the definitive $5s for which I would not open Bishop, almost ever. Some others, it depends on whether there is an engine present or not. But, for example, unless you can steamroll the opponent, you're at a loss if you don't open Bishop because you'll frequently be down at least ~6 VP from a sparsely played Bishop due to your Estate trashes.
-
Interestingly, Fortress+bishop is the only combo I know of that doesn't require you to buy/gain cards to gain a large number of points. Which means you could conceivably get into get into a situation where nether player wants to buy any other cards to disrupt their combo, but the score is close... sort of a chess-draw.
If this occurs, the leading player can buy the remaining fortresses, then another draw card, preferably something like spy, and then cross their fingers and pile the bishops.
However, this is difficult to pull off, especially if fortress is the only village, and harder if it's the only cantrip.
It's also a bit risky, and one might want to just call it a draw.
If there are cards like caravan, market, or lab on the board, this situation can still proceed toward the endgame.
Although everything I just said may be totally incorrect, I think it would be very rare that fortress/bishop would leading to an unending game.
I think you are right that its rare, but its the first case in dominion I know of where something like that being possible.
KC-KC-Monument x3?
-
I just played a game against a Goko bot with Bishop and Chapel on the board. So first thing I thought about was going for the golden deck. Then I saw Militia and thought "no way". And then I saw Lighthouse. 2x Lighthouse, 2x Gold, Bishop and Province should work, so I decided to give it a try.
In the end the bot went with very aggressive early Militia (its first three buys were Chapel, Militia, Militia and third Militia followed turn 8) and it took me some time to get two Golds, when I was there I decided my deck is good enough to simply buy Provinces and Golds (which changed into Provinces as I bought two Remodels). I wonder what would happen if I tried to get rid of all remaining Silvers and Coppers to build the 6-card deck :)
-
I just played a game against a Goko bot with Bishop and Chapel on the board. So first thing I thought about was going for the golden deck. Then I saw Militia and thought "no way". And then I saw Lighthouse. 2x Lighthouse, 2x Gold, Bishop and Province should work, so I decided to give it a try.
In the end the bot went with very aggressive early Militia (its first three buys were Chapel, Militia, Militia and third Militia followed turn 8) and it took me some time to get two Golds, when I was there I decided my deck is good enough to simply buy Provinces and Golds (which changed into Provinces as I bought two Remodels). I wonder what would happen if I tried to get rid of all remaining Silvers and Coppers to build the 6-card deck :)
You didn't need two Golds for Golden Deck there. You could do:
Gold, Silver, Lighthouse, Bishop, Province, second Lighthouse always in play
Bishop Province gives $1, $2 from two Lighthouses, $5 through Gold and Silver for $8 to buy a new Province.
Dipping into Remodel wouldn't be that helpful because you'd rather use Bishop instead. You could just Bishop Gold instead of Province if need be, of course.
-
Since when did we assume that Wharf was in every kingdom?
We are talking about power $5s here that make Bishop a poor open. Not all games have power $5s. I can maybe think of Mountebank, Witch, Wharf, HP, and Governor as the definitive $5s for which I would not open Bishop, almost ever. Some others, it depends on whether there is an engine present or not. But, for example, unless you can steamroll the opponent, you're at a loss if you don't open Bishop because you'll frequently be down at least ~6 VP from a sparsely played Bishop due to your Estate trashes.
I agree that we are not talking about all games, but I have seen people open bishop with all the examples you cited. I would add other cards that might make me avoid opening bishop: Kings Court, Goons, tournament, colony, excellent trashers such as remake or ambassador. And bridge combos. I just think it adds up to wanting to open bishop infrequently (maybe 25-30% of games with bishop).
Also, I if you manage to buy a bishop by the second reshuffle, you should only be behind by ONE bishop play, which will be 2VP (1 VP if your opponent is unlucky). If you buy by the third reshuffle, it will be 2-4 VP behind. I don't know why you are coming up with 6VP, unless you are assuming you buy your bishop VERY late.
I absolutely agree that in some games, that ~3 points might be enough to make the difference. Of course it it depends on the kingdom. But I find the better the engine, the easier it is to make up that loss, and the less important it is to open bishop. Of course, if there is no +buy, it makes opening bishop much more attractive, because splitting the provinces 5/3, or picking up extra duchies, is really tough without extra buys.
Yeah, this should really be added to the article. The question of whether to open bishop is very subtle, and I was probably too simplistic in my presentation. I just see people open bishop on an Hunting Party board and it made me want to write this article.