Dominion Strategy Forum

Archive => Archive => Dominion: Dark Ages Previews => Topic started by: rspeer on September 01, 2012, 06:13:46 am

Title: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: rspeer on September 01, 2012, 06:13:46 am
Well, in the time since I bought Dark Ages from my FLGS, I keep trying to find a realistic way to use Donald X's favorite card, Rats. It's so much fun to play! And so bad!

So here are some conversations between me and myself, designated "Johnny" and "Spike".

Johnny: Rats goes great with trash-for-benefit cards! Altar is a trash-for-benefit card! Let's get both!
Spike: Altar doesn't give a rat's ass whether it's trashing a Rats.

Spike: Okay, a 3/4 opening, no strong 4s, so we'll get Silver and... another Silver, right?
Johnny: No, a Rats.
Spike: You're insane.
Johnny: Gotta trash that Overgrown Estate somehow, right?

Johnny: ...and then if everything lines up, we can use Steward to trash two Rats and draw two whole cards!
Spike: Congratulations, that's worse than a Moat. And if you didn't want the Rats, you could have not gained them.

Johnny: OH MY GOD I CAN PROCESSION RATS
Spike: Maybe with that $5 gain you can gain a Laboratory. You know, something that nets you one card and doesn't fuck up the rest of your deck.
Johnny: Okay, yeah, and then I'll Procession the Lab into an Altar! That will fix everything!

[edited because I got the Spike name wrong at first]
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Brando Commando on September 01, 2012, 09:23:55 am
I had some similar conversations last night playing IRL Dark Ages. One guy did well by buying limited Rats and then Graverobbing them into something better. One guy got screwed buying a few and then not having any treasure to do anything useful with.

I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of) and when trashed it draws you a card; this all suggests that it's a great early trasher if you buy one and use if one or two times to create more, all of which you then feed to Upgrade/Remake/Salvager/Trader. This way, maybe there's some turbo-trashing early game (maybe even faster than Remake?).
Downside: You'd have to carefully balance things so you don't end up with a hand with only Rats and something you don't want to trash and which can't trash Rats, e.g., Rats-Rats-Silver-Silver-Silver; using them will only feed an explosion, so they become dead cards (unless you've got something else up your sleeve...).

So: potentially powerful early game, but potentially dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Davio on September 01, 2012, 09:48:03 am
This is my general feeling with DA.

DA just brings out the Rube Goldberg in me and in the end I lose to a big money bot.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: BubbleBoy on September 01, 2012, 09:56:58 am
I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of)
Um...
Upgrade
Yeah...also, Junk Dealer and Apprentice (sort of). By the way, Apprentice is pretty great to use on Rats.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Brando Commando on September 01, 2012, 10:19:55 am
I think it's strongest point is that it's the only trashing cantrip (that I can think of)
Um...
Upgrade

<facepalm> My only saving grace..."that I can think of." Sorta.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: redwings1340 on September 01, 2012, 12:16:36 pm
Hmm, I haven't actually gotten the game yet, but maybe rats could work pretty well if there was another trash card in the game (trash for benefit could be awesome) and you got it a little later than you get most trash cards (only after you have the ability to trash them). The key to this card might lie in the idea that you can get an endless supply of 4 cost cards (which ordinarily you wouldn't have time to get) that help you when you trash them, and you can trash a few additional coppers while you're at it. It's just a thought though, I haven't had the chance to test it out myself.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: werothegreat on September 01, 2012, 12:24:16 pm
In Cursing or Looting games (particularly those that feature both), Rats shine, but you really do need another trasher to take care of the Rats once they've gotten rid of your junk, such as, well Junk Dealer!  Junk Dealer does the same thing, but it's slower, so use that to trash your Rats and draw an extra card.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: agrajag on September 02, 2012, 01:04:04 pm
I can confirm that it works pretty great with junk dealer. In fact one of the two recommended Dark Ages sets has both Junk Dealer and Rats (and Graverobber, which can also work well with it if you get only a few rats. Junk Dealer works better with larger numbers).
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Grujah on September 02, 2012, 01:10:07 pm
I can confirm that it works pretty great with junk dealer. In fact one of the two recommended Dark Ages sets has both Junk Dealer and Rats (and Graverobber, which can also work well with it if you get only a few rats. Junk Dealer works better with larger numbers).

So, you think +1 Card is worth it?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: agrajag on September 02, 2012, 01:29:01 pm
No I think Junk Dealer needs a lot of cards to trash for it to work, and Rats is a good source of that. +1 card isn't worth it by itself, but in combination with Rats ability to trash other crappy cards plus another trash for benefit card like Junk Dealer or Graverobber I think it works pretty well. Just my subjective opinion though, not like I've run simulator tests against big money or anything.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on September 02, 2012, 02:07:30 pm
So, you think +1 Card is worth it?

Well, if you're going to trash your estates, turning them to rats first gives you extra cards twice. When you turn you estates to rats, you get to draw another card instead. When you trash your rats, you draw an extra card.

Basically, that means that buying the rats gives you a total of 6 extra cards in the early game (three if you count the hand-space the rat takes up against it), just for trashing your estates. Later on, when coppers are no longer good cards, you can swap them with your rats (which take up space in your hand, but no more than they did back when they were estates).

With shelters, it gets slightly better as your overgrown estate gives you another card, for a total of +7 cards for buying the rats, plus another card when you trash the original rat.

Whether that beats the other 4-cost card you could have opened is an open question, but it's not nothing.

(of course, this assumes that your final trasher was a five-coster you couldn't just have opened with in the first place, like junkyard)
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: RD on September 02, 2012, 02:59:19 pm
So, you think +1 Card is worth it?

Well, if you're going to trash your estates, turning them to rats first gives you extra cards twice. When you turn you estates to rats, you get to draw another card instead. When you trash your rats, you draw an extra card.

Basically, that means that buying the rats gives you a total of 6 extra cards in the early game (three if you count the hand-space the rat takes up against it), just for trashing your estates. Later on, when coppers are no longer good cards, you can swap them with your rats (which take up space in your hand, but no more than they did back when they were estates).

3 is the appropriate number to look at here, not 6. You could for instance buy one Caravan to get those three extra +Cards without worrying about hitting the Rats+trasher combo. You'll probably get them sooner and with a lot less hassle. Also the cards you draw will be higher quality because none of them will be Rats (which you might not even get to play, if your trasher is a terminal).

You also seem to be assuming you can immediately Rats the Estates and wait until later for the Copper; if it doesn't work out this way, then there is some damage to your buying power that has to be taken into account.

Quote
With shelters, it gets slightly better as your overgrown estate gives you another card, for a total of +7 cards for buying the rats, plus another card when you trash the original rat.

Overgrown Estate gives you a card whether you use Rats or not; it seems like a wash? I guess it gives you that card a little sooner, assuming (as in your post) that you didn't open with your real trasher because it costs $5.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on September 02, 2012, 03:35:52 pm
3 is the appropriate number to look at here, not 6. You could for instance buy one Caravan to get those three extra +Cards without worrying about hitting the Rats+trasher combo. You'll probably get them sooner and with a lot less hassle. Also the cards you draw will be higher quality because none of them will be Rats (which you might not even get to play, if your trasher is a terminal).
There's certainly quite a few ifs. Rats are only a good card if the table is right, but it is not the only card with that quality. I think Junk Dealer might be such a table. Then again, it may not be fast enough. It is, however, a mistake to say the cards you draw will be better quality because they wont be rats. Apart from the single rat you bought, all the rats presumably replaced poorer cards (shelters, estates, unwanted coppers)

I think Rats might be worthwhile on tables where you will eventually trash your cards, but won't be doing so right away. It may also improve performance in a double-jack because it can make your coppers 'not treasures' with a small trash benefit. In other words, I think rats has a lot of tables where it can subtly improve your odds in ways that are not immidiately obvious.

Their most obvious benefit is trash-for-benefit though. If you can grab a Forge, two rats make a province. If you have an Upgrade, your deck will turn from junk to Rats to Upgrade to Gold in short order.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: ehunt on September 04, 2012, 03:00:03 pm
I had an effective Rats/Ambassador opening last night. The gift that keeps on giving! There was scrying pool, though, so I didn't mind the rats as much, and it took a ton of time to build my economy up after all that trashing (but what's new in an ambassador game?)
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: shMerker on September 04, 2012, 06:33:25 pm
I think there are uses for Rats alongside Library. First, because the rats tend to reduce your hand-size in the same way Haven or Oasis might. But then after you've cleared out your starting cards it lets you just go right past the rats in search of better cards (note: you need to actually have better cards for this to work)
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Not a Cylon on September 04, 2012, 07:56:55 pm
I had a pretty good time of Rats/Bishop on Goko the other day (only possible due to a bug). You get to either play the Rats to get another one, or cash it in for 3 VP now :)

Of course, the usual problem with Bishop applies here — you're giving your opponents a good opportunity to trash their Rats, and they get to replace the card to boot. Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two). I think I also got some manner of Village as well, which was nice because otherwise you can draw things dead with your Bishop!

(I don't think it was Fortress that was the Village available. I'd remember having fun with Bishop/Fortress :-) Possibly almost as much fun as I had with Procession/Fortress/Council Room/Forge …)

Still. Very fun card. Yes, it is very very situational, but then a whole bunch of DA cards are situational. (BoM, anyone?) Which I would argue is what's so much fun about the set :-)
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Razzishi on September 04, 2012, 08:27:37 pm
Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two).

I'm pretty sure that you never want to buy more than one Rats.

Also, plural card names are bad for grammar.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Jorbles on September 05, 2012, 11:21:45 am
If you can get marginal use out of them otherwise Rats are a pretty great counter to Knights (other deck trashing cards too probably, but I've only used it against Knights).
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 05, 2012, 02:10:18 pm
Also, I did have to be careful not to get too many Rats (I think I only bought two).

I'm pretty sure that you never want to buy more than one Rats.

Also, plural card names are bad for grammar.
Yeah, but if it were singular, you would have issues too. Who wants to admit that his kingdom went down the crapper because of a single Rat?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: werothegreat on September 05, 2012, 02:16:59 pm
Ratses.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Ozle on September 05, 2012, 06:25:30 pm
Ratses.

Ratii !
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: clb on September 05, 2012, 07:34:58 pm
Rats cards?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 07, 2012, 10:57:19 am
Ratses.

Ratii !
Ratipeople?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Kirian on September 07, 2012, 01:07:05 pm
Ratses.

Ratii !
Ratipeople?

Whatever, you know what I mean.

/probably not obscure to Scissors, possibly to others.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 07, 2012, 11:49:33 pm
Ratses.

Ratii !
Ratipeople?

Whatever, you know what I mean.

/probably not obscure to Scissors, possibly to others.
I gotcha, bro. ;)
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Mister Alex on September 11, 2012, 09:16:09 pm
I had a fun game the other day where I was Remodelling Rats into Border Villages + Market/Duchy + 1 card.   That was nice.

Basically I think Rats are best when there's something else that can trash them while taking their cost into account (Salvager, Apprentice, Remodel etc).  Their main power seems to be replacing a useless 0-cost card with an almost-useless 4-cost card.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: mischiefmaker on September 12, 2012, 06:57:19 pm
Mister Alex hits the nail on the head: so far I haven't found any use for Rats (except as a comical, thematically flavorful, hey-look-my-whole-deck-got-eaten-by-Rats! thing) that does not involve trash-for-benefit.

I disagree that Rats shines in a Curse/Ruins-heavy game. It's wrong to think of Rats as a trasher -- better to think of them as replacing your junk (Curse/Ruins/Copper/Shelter) with Rats. If you don't have a good reason to want Rats instead of those cards, and I think in most decks Copper and Ruins will be preferable to Rats, you're better off just trying to deal with the junk without spending the opportunity cost of buying your first Rats.

I experimented a bit with a couple of combos: Rats/Salvager (open Rats/Silver, BM with 2 Salvagers from there) clocked in around 14-15 turns to 4 provinces. It's not the fastest deck in the world but it'll be reasonably competitive, especially when you consider that Salvager gives you some endgame flexibility. I only played 4-5 games though so take the sample size with a grain of salt.

Rats/Death Cart is quite a bit slower, and has a very high variance. I got to 4 provinces in one game in 16 turns, and the next game took 20+ before I gave up. However, if you add in some filtering, you've got yourself a legitimate deck. Both Rats/Death Cart/Cartographer and Rats/Death Cart/Lookout were on par with Smithy-BM, averaging 14-15 turns to 4 provinces. I didn't test them but I have good confidence that Cellar and Warehouse will be good pairings here as well.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on September 13, 2012, 04:39:11 am
Mister Alex hits the nail on the head: so far I haven't found any use for Rats (except as a comical, thematically flavorful, hey-look-my-whole-deck-got-eaten-by-Rats! thing) that does not involve trash-for-benefit.

Scrying pool?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: ednever on September 13, 2012, 09:47:56 am
I played the recommended dark ages+alchemy set last night. Rats dominated.

I opened rats+market square.
Rats started multiplying immediately and eating my copper and shelters.
I discarded my ms a few times for gold.
Second time through the deck I grabbed a armory and used it to top deck a potion. (I ended up grabbing 3-4 potions I think. I also picked up a few wandering minstrels with it)
Potions bought me scrying pools and 9 vineyards (it was a 3p game)

More than a few times I didn't play a rats. More than a few times a rats ate a gold or a potion.
(I also grabbed 2 apprentice at some points but I only used one once to eat a rats. It definitely wasn't necessary)

Final deck composition was:
19 rats, 18 other action cards, 9 vineyards, 2 potions, 2 golds - 108 vp.


Now: pretty sure Donald designed the set to be rats friendly. And my pile driving of rats was uncontested. The pools and the vineyards were the key rays support, and armory and market square both helped a LOT (the deck had no economy except the potions gained by armory and the golds gained by market square)

That said, pretty sure there is a rats+vineyards combo there. Needs a tiny amount of support to be dominant on many boards. Just getting all the rats makes the vineyards worth 6vp. And you can do that with a single rats purchase.

Ef

Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: dondon151 on September 15, 2012, 10:06:19 pm
And to think, normally one wouldn't want rats to be running amok in their vineyards...
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: jomini on September 17, 2012, 05:15:30 pm
Rats have several basic uses:
1. The can increase the value of the cards in your deck, albeit making them fairly useless to play. This is actually very strong with the right scaling TfB's. Bishop, Apprentice, Salvager, Remodel, Forge, etc. are great with rats if you have something that can use them.
2. They trash any type of card and give you an action. This means that cards that can only trash actions (like grave robber) or that can only trash non-treasures (like Hermit) can use rats as an intermediate to eat up copper & then pitch the rats for something better (e.g. villages or silver).
3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes. This means 2 piles gone with you up on VP with a strong goons engine can end by just having two rats in hand and then playing out the other 18. You can also auto-pile out the rats with a VP lead based wholly on dual victory-action cards (e.g. great hall/nobles) already in play or with something hiding the VP cards from hand (i.e. Island, Nv, Haven). Another option is to just win by curses + whatever you can buy from your action cash as you pile out.


For instance, develop/rats is pretty decent. Say you have develop/rats/market out. You can rats away your estates and some coppers, and then play a develop on a rats. You auto-draw the silver and leave a market on top for next hand. If you have a strong 3/5 (e.g. Fishing village/rabble) you can hammer away at the rat's and build a strong engine with no other trashing. Because the number of rats in your deck grows exponentially, you are virtually all ways assured of hitting rats/develop and gaining a nice set of 5/3 cards. I haven't tried it yet, but I think you might be able to rush rats/develop/duchy (buying copper to rats) or better rats/develop/duchy/duke. Develop/rats/Igg may also be fun & work.

Another shot is to give out the curses while your opponent gives out ruins, empty both of those, rats out, and then buy an estate or duchy off a mountebank, fishing villages, festivals, or whatever.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: LastFootnote on September 17, 2012, 05:50:09 pm
For instance, develop/rats is pretty decent. Say you have develop/rats/market out. You can rats away your estates and some coppers, and then play a develop on a rats. You auto-draw the silver and leave a market on top for next hand.

It doesn't quite work that way. When Develop trashes Rats, you draw a card immediately. Only then do you gain the two cards from Develop.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: dondon151 on September 17, 2012, 06:17:04 pm
3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes.

Rats gets the +1 Card before it gains another Rats.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Graystripe77 on September 17, 2012, 06:21:41 pm
Rats/Procession -> Watchtower? Or, just Rats/Watchtower?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: jomini on September 17, 2012, 07:50:25 pm
3. They can pile out. Rats with an empty deck (because everything else is already in play) auto-depletes.

Rats gets the +1 Card before it gains another Rats.

Yes, this is why I said in the following sentence "by just having two rats in hand". Technically you need to have a rats in hand and a rats in hand or in your deck/discard (and nothing else) when you start playing rats. Two rats will auto-pile if you keep playing them. Also, if you have some strong reliable draw setup, you can gain as many rats as you want (just don't play them once you draw them). For instance if you get Scrying pool/remake/scheme you can grab 10 cards to turn into an engine (e.g. upgrade rats -> festival/market).

Quote
It doesn't quite work that way. When Develop trashes Rats, you draw a card immediately. Only then do you gain the two cards from Develop.
Ahh, thank you. That works even better for many things then. Develop/rats and something like village/Cr or Fv/Torturer gets even better.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Squeek on September 25, 2012, 02:49:31 pm
Trader + rats would seem to be a strong combo.  You'd clear the silver pile rather quickly.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 25, 2012, 06:28:23 pm
I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: rinkworks on September 26, 2012, 09:32:17 am
I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 26, 2012, 01:42:57 pm
I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.
Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: eHalcyon on September 26, 2012, 01:48:04 pm
I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.
Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

But if you hadn't had that Rats, you would have drawn the Gold in the first place, no? :P
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Scissors61 on September 26, 2012, 02:06:16 pm
I played a six player game IRL recently with rats. Ruins were flying thick and fast, and knights trashed all your duchies. It was a long, hilarious match, and I basically gave up. So naturally I bought some rats. They helped me buy the second province of the game. Everyone, myself included, was flabbergasted(best word ever). Final score: friend #1,8(one province and dame Josephine), me:6(province), friend#2:1(a single estate), everyone else:0.

No,seriously.

How did the Rats help you buy a Province?  I feel like I'm missing part of the story.
Other than Knights and Ruins, Rats was the only +cards on the board. I was able to play a rats to draw a gold, to go with my 2 silver and 1 copper. I trashed a Ruins. Sorry, should have said that in the first place.

But if you hadn't had that Rats, you would have drawn the Gold in the first place, no? :P
...*facepalm* Hindsight is 20/20.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: brokoli on September 26, 2012, 02:47:42 pm
Hey, I have a powerful combo for you ! Rats-Jack !
Rats eat coppers and Jack trashes the estates and rats !

(and then you realize that double-jack will just kill this "combo")
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Brando Commando on September 26, 2012, 04:25:56 pm
I pulled off a win with a little Rats help the other day. The set-up included Village, Develop, Rats, Procession, Graverobber, Hunting Party and Expand.  I think I opened Develop/Rats and never bought another Rats but must have gained four or five over the course of the game.

I won, probably because of that early Develop, which I used on the Rats to gain Village and Graverobber. I only remember one hand where Rats was holding me back -- I didn't want to draw anything for fear I'd have to trash something good. Otherwise, I was able to use the Rats to trash copper/estate or something else to trash the Rats.

So it was useful here, but I had specifically tried to design a kingdom where Rats was viable. I'm not sure I would have gone Rats if even Develop had not been around, since Graverobber and Expand might have been too expensive to halt their proliferation effectively (and since Procession by itself doesn't do anything to slow proliferation even if it makes Rats more effective).
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: rinkworks on September 27, 2012, 02:03:53 pm
I haven't tried Rats/Develop yet, but I'm optimistic that that is a strong strategy under many circumstances.  The problem with Develop is that to make it work, you need to want multiples of cards 2 cost tiers apart, but to give Develop the fuel it needs you need cards at the cost tier in the middle.

So let's say you want $3 and $5 cards, which is probably the most common pair of targets.  That means you have to buy $4 cards to allow Develop to get them for you, and getting a $4 card necessarily means NOT getting one of the $3 cards you want in the first place.

Rats solves this problem by quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Polk5440 on September 27, 2012, 02:32:40 pm
Rats solves this problem by, quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.

That seems to be the hidden power of Rats: the fact they cost $4. We played some games IRL and I was completely confused on how Rats help you out -- until I saw the pirateshipeconomist use them in a very successful Remodeling chain. Then I got it. Rats are great as an intermediate step to something better.

Then in another game I tried to do a similar thing using Rats as Apprentice fodder (both these games were recommended sets in the DA instruction book). I didn't buy enough Apprentices soon enough and Rats overran my deck.... I guess I didn't really get it yet.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Insomniac on September 27, 2012, 02:46:53 pm
Rats solves this problem by, quickly and seamlessly turning your starting cards into $4 cards.  Now you only have to burn one $4 opportunity to get a bunch of fuel cards instead of a bunch of $4 opportunities.

That seems to be the hidden power of Rats: the fact they cost $4. We played some games IRL and I was completely confused on how Rats help you out -- until I saw the pirateshipeconomist use them in a very successful Remodeling chain. Then I got it. Rats are great as an intermediate step to something better.

Then in another game I tried to do a similar thing using Rats as Apprentice fodder (both these games were recommended sets in the DA instruction book). I didn't buy enough Apprentices soon enough and Rats overran my deck.... I guess I didn't really get it yet.

They are good with death cart as well.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on September 30, 2012, 03:08:52 pm

They are good with death cart as well.
I thought that too, but in practice, it turned out way too slow when I tried it. Getting two ruins when you buy DC gets you a deck that is junked enough that you rarely get to trigger more than one death cart, which doesn't get you that much buying power for the effort invested.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: mischiefmaker on October 01, 2012, 07:24:14 pm
As noted above, Rats/Death Cart by itself is too slow and too unreliable, but it works nicely with a little filtering (Warehouse, Cellar, Lookout, Cartographer, etc.).
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Pez on October 06, 2012, 05:34:27 pm
Everyone has pointed out the importance of another trashing card for almost every use of Rats. But the other drawback of playing a rats is decreasing your hand size. But this isn't a problem if you have a fortress. Fortress/Rats/Some Other TFB is awesome. If you have enough fortresses, you don't have to worry about trashing cards that you want to keep. That can help you cycle your deck pretty fast and since you don't have to worry about playing the rats you can get rid of the cards that take up space in your deck such as shelters and coppers, and turn them into rats which will often be harmless cantrips. Then you can slowly widdle the # of rats down by playing your TFB.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: brokoli on October 07, 2012, 05:56:50 pm
Rats + Junk Dealer is decent, even if probably rarely the best strategy on the board.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on October 08, 2012, 04:57:07 am
Rats + Junk Dealer is decent, even if probably rarely the best strategy on the board.

I'm still not sure how big the benefit actually is. Playing a rats, then junkdealing has the net result of -3 cards, +3 cards, trash one card. That seems to be about the same net result as one junk dealer (-1 card, +1 card, trash one card).

There is a marginal benefit to ratting estates/shelters for no significant card loss, to replace them with a card that gives +1 card when trashed later in the game (-2 cards, +1 card now; -1 card, +2 cards, trash one card later). I am unsure if this marginal benefit is ever going to beat silver. My guess would be that opening silver instead, to improve the odds of getting the junk dealer on the second shuffle, gives better results overall.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: brokoli on October 08, 2012, 06:08:46 am
Rats is a very fast trasher, much faster than Junk Dealer. If you simply take one, you don't lose so much time.
The idea is simply to trash the coppers and estates ASAP and then trash the rats before they destroy your deck.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on October 08, 2012, 09:18:39 am
Rats is a very fast trasher, much faster than Junk Dealer. If you simply take one, you don't lose so much time.
The idea is simply to trash the coppers and estates ASAP and then trash the rats before they destroy your deck.

How is rats a fast trasher? The number of cards in your deck after playing rats is exactly the same as the number of cards in your deck before.

Barring special circumstances (Watchtower, empty Rats pile, etc.), Rats does not act as a trasher at all.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Captain_Frisk on October 08, 2012, 09:20:33 am
Rats is a very fast trasher, much faster than Junk Dealer. If you simply take one, you don't lose so much time.
The idea is simply to trash the coppers and estates ASAP and then trash the rats before they destroy your deck.

How is rats a fast trasher? The number of cards in your deck after playing rats is exactly the same as the number of cards in your deck before.

Barring special circumstances (Watchtower, empty Rats pile, etc.), Rats does not act as a trasher at all.

Rats don't take up space because of the +1 card / action, and their trashing ability compounds.  (On your 3rd shuffle, you could be trashing up to 4 cards)

1 + 2 + 4 = 7 > 6 which is what you could trash if you used steward to full trash every time.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Dulkal on October 08, 2012, 11:02:51 am
Rats don't take up space because of the +1 card / action, and their trashing ability compounds.  (On your 3rd shuffle, you could be trashing up to 4 cards)

1 + 2 + 4 = 7 > 6 which is what you could trash if you used steward to full trash every time.

But you want to stop trashing, so they take up space once you are done doing that. On your third shuffle, you COULD be trashing up to 4 cards, but would you ever want to? By the third shuffle, most of your Rats will be just as dead as the cards they trashed.

Technically, Rats is a cantrip and a trasher. In reality, the forced trash and the requirement to re-trash means that your deck isn't thinned. See my calculations above: The total number of cards played or lost from hand by using junk dealer via rats is exactly equal to the amount drawn plus one, just as it is with junk dealer. The number of junk dealer plays required to reach the desired deck state (which I assume does not include rats) is also unaltered by going via Rats.

Rats probably provides some very minor deck-cycling, but that benefit is unlikely to get you to your target faster than Silver->Junk Dealer.

So I stand by my point: Rats should not be treated as a 'fast trasher'. The main benefit of rats, (sans TFB, benefits-when-trashed cards or cards that benefit from the action type), is that it allows you to exchange dead card draws now for live card draws later. Whether that small benefit is worth the cost and the risk of drawing dead rats is an open question, but the benefit is pretty small either way.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Sigismundo on October 09, 2012, 11:49:51 am
I played a pretty fun rats board last night with my Wife.

Herbalist,Some 3 I can't remember,Marauder,Rats,Feast,Upgrade,Council Room, Embassy, Hunting Grounds, Kings Court.

I tend to avoid BM while my wife goes for it.  She opened Marauder/Silver and I went Rats/Marauder.  Then I started getting upgrades as I could with my spoils and silvers on 4 or <.  It was nice to have a 4>5>6>7 path for upgrade, but I didn't end up getting a Hunting grounds I don't think but would like to retry it with them vs some golds. My wife got at least 2 provinces before my deck was formed well.  Then I started KC'ing upgrades to trash rats.  I ended up having a strong turn where I trashed 4 rats for Duchy's and got 1 province from a KC upgrade and then bought the Penultimate province in the buy phase.  My deck was like 9 upgrades, 1 marauder, 4 KC's, 2 Council Rooms, 3 golds, lots o Rats.  Trashing rats to upgrades gave lots of card draw to get a slew of them quickly.

Rats helped get rid of the Ruins easily since the deck was pretty tight. It is a bit harder to tell how well it really worked since I don't know how many turns this game went due to playing IRL, but my wife's BM game seemed pretty normal.  She passed on one early province cause she hit 11 on like turn 6 and got gold/silver instead before she started buying provinces.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: AJD on October 09, 2012, 01:17:42 pm
She opened Marauder/Silver and I went Rats/Marauder.

...Aren't Rats and Marauder both $4 cards?
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Sigismundo on October 09, 2012, 04:44:17 pm
Ah yup.  I went rats/silver and picked up a marauder 2nd time through.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: brokoli on October 09, 2012, 05:13:49 pm
Sigismundo, Welcome to the forum !  :D
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: BubbleBoy on October 09, 2012, 06:34:24 pm
And the first reply to his first post is a correction. Welcome to the forum!
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: redwings1340 on October 28, 2012, 09:39:05 pm
I've played a few games with it, and I've found that rats is an amazing situational card. What it does is replaces all of your 0 cost cards with 4 cost cards, allowing trash for benefit cards to work at amazing speeds. I've used it really well with the remodel and the apprentice, and I imagine it would work really well with the remake, the upgrade, or the salvager, or any card that can take advantage of the fact that a rats costs 4. It's even better because you only need to buy 1 rats to get the advantage of it the entire game. If those cards aren't in the set though, yeah, rats is probably pretty useless and a waste of time to get.
Title: Re: Nombo of the day: Rats / most things
Post by: Cuzz on October 28, 2012, 10:43:14 pm
Played a really fun game recently with scrying pool, rats, and vineyard. An armory at the beginning helped me pick up a few key components quickly, and market square gave extra buys and a few gold. Bought no treasure all game and ended up with 8 vineyards for 9 vp each.