Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Tournaments and Events => Topic started by: fp on August 07, 2011, 12:20:43 am

Title: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: fp on August 07, 2011, 12:20:43 am
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Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Kirian on August 07, 2011, 01:25:24 am
I've heard third-hand that there was some... trouble... at the RGG Dominion tournament.  I imagine WBC organizers will have to be on the lookout for shenanigans--card-palming, false shuffles, etc.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: theory on August 07, 2011, 09:30:14 am
I finished 3rd at WBC finals, and I'm not happy about it.  Not because there was anything wrong with the tournament or any shady dealings, but I lost to people who weren't familiar with the cards (e.g., I had my Coppers Swindled into more Coppers, and players bought Coppers).

I won all my preliminary heats (intrigue-only), quarterfinals (intrigue-only), and semifinals (seaside-only) playing various versions of Big Money modified (and in semifinals, being the only one interested in Sea Hag while others went for Pirate Ships was pretty dominating).  The finals was two games (5 intrigue 5 seaside).  The first set was:

Courtyard
Ambassador
Great Hall
Scout
Swindler
Treasury
Outpost
Conspirator
Pirate Ship
Native Village

In 4th position, I opened Ambassador/Ambassador while others opened Baron/Silver, Pirate Ship/Silver (!), and Scout/Swindler (!!).  One Ambassador missed the first reshuffle, but whatever.  I thinned my deck dramatically and built a pretty good Treasury/Conspirator/Outpost engine.  But right before I was able to kick my engine into high gear (I had 1 Province and was ready for 2-Province turns), the game ended on piles and I was in last place.  As it turns out, Ambassador in 4p is very different than in 2p: somehow it feels less effective (though I have no theoretical justification for this), but more importantly, it drains piles.  I drained the estates, they had emptied the Great Halls, and my opponent had been swindling everyone's Silvers into Ambassadors (since it was a "useless" card).  With two Ambassadors left, the second-place player played Outpost, bought an Ambassador, and bought the last Ambassador on her Outpost turn.

Second game, I played Masquerade/Big Money while they messed around with Baron.  (Maybe my Masquerades indirectly kept people's Barons fed.)  The person who placed first last game hit his Baron on every reshuffle and won again, while I made one mistake (early Nobles instead of Gold) and bottom-decked all my money on the last turn, so I finished second.  My 4th and 2nd put me to 3rd overall.

So yeah, I'm not particularly pleased I finished third behind people who opened Scout.  C'est la vie.  At least I didn't fly all the way out to GenCon, since if I had done that and lost under similar circumstances I might have punched a hole in something.

(Don't even ask me about Twilight Struggle.  Against the best player in the world, I stupidly play Defectors when he sees my headline first, so I cancel out Africa Scoring, costing myself 10VP, and I lose in Final Scoring by 1VP.)
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 07, 2011, 11:25:11 am
how did rrenaud do? I assume not top-4 otherwise you would have mentioned him being in the final with you...
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: DG on August 07, 2011, 11:52:52 am
Quote
As it turns out, Ambassador in 4p is very different than in 2p: somehow it feels less effective
There's a whole bundle of chaos in that set and the decks will expand or shrink rapidly based on the group think. It's pretty much impossible for just one player to counter the collective strategies of all the opponents. Maybe you needed to open ambassador/silver to get the treasuries sooner. That scout is, in hindsight, only a peculiar buy and not a dreadful buy. I bet it drew one or two cards every play. Your opponent who said that the extra ambassadors would be useless was actually proved right by the group thinking too! I'm guessing those swindled ambassadors were never used more than once and any cards they passed on were never drawn again.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Razzishi on August 07, 2011, 12:38:17 pm
I finished 3rd at WBC finals, and I'm not happy about it. 

I'm not particularly happy about them running the finals as a 2-game 4-player match.  I can understand how the organizers want to move things along by having as many people as possible in each game and have the game be played in its most general configuration, but I really hope that more than 2 games were planned for the finals and didn't need them because the same person won both of the first two.

As to what you could have done differently, one thing about the 4-player format you may not have appreciated was how fast piles can run out.  There's only 3 Victory cards per player, and 2.5 non-victory cards; people often will scramble to grab their share of a certain card before they run out.  I don't know exactly what modifications to your strategy you should make, but giving 3 other players all your Estates on a board with Scout and Great Hall is really asking for piles to be run out with you behind in VP. 

Also, consider that the people that made the finals were those who successfully played 4-player against a large field.  They quite likely knew what they were doing in a multiplayer game far more than someone who plays consistently 2-player.  And in 4-player it is perfectly reasonable to end the game when you're in second, because it means you beat two other people; I don't know if you're wagging your finger at the person who ended the game while not in first, but I'd likely have done the same thing depending on the score and the scoring system.

Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: play2draw on August 07, 2011, 01:24:06 pm
I think this might, at the very least, demonstrate that dominionstrategy ought to include strategies for games with more than two people. Just as how the kingdom cards can vary in a set, so too can the number of opponents.

Perhaps more of us should auto-match at 3-players instead of 2.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rod- on August 07, 2011, 01:44:51 pm
Even something as strategically simple and valuable as the PPR has not yet been quantified or explained for multiplayer games - to some degree you can't do anything about it except extend it to (#opponents+1), but I agree - it's certainly an area for collective improvement.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Razzishi on August 07, 2011, 06:59:11 pm
Even something as strategically simple and valuable as the PPR has not yet been quantified or explained for multiplayer games - to some degree you can't do anything about it except extend it to (#opponents+1), but I agree - it's certainly an area for collective improvement.

Indeed, with trying to formulate any such principles you run into a whole host of concerns that you don't get in a 2-player game.    Even if everyone plays "optimally", you need to ascertain what places each person will be comfortable in accepting given the current game state.  In a 2 player game, not winning is the absolute worst you can do, whereas in a 3 or 4 player game you might feel that ending the game sooner rather than later will get you a better finish, even if it isn't first.  Players may need to make a decision at some point whether to gamble and go for 1st or play it safe and take 2nd, and that decision will be partly based on the overall scoring system.  If only the winner advances, you clearly need to play differently than if 1st and 2nd both advance.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: fp on August 07, 2011, 10:17:00 pm
I think this might, at the very least, demonstrate that dominionstrategy ought to include strategies for games with more than two people. Just as how the kingdom cards can vary in a set, so too can the number of opponents.

Perhaps more of us should auto-match at 3-players instead of 2.

Just a couple of comments.

1. 3-player games on isotropic, I find incredibly slow. I am under the impression many other do too.

2. I am very surprised there was no effort to coordinate practice before the WBC
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 07, 2011, 10:33:46 pm
I think this might, at the very least, demonstrate that dominionstrategy ought to include strategies for games with more than two people. Just as how the kingdom cards can vary in a set, so too can the number of opponents.

Perhaps more of us should auto-match at 3-players instead of 2.
I don't think this demonstrates that at all. I think this demonstrates that we're not as good at multiplayer (which I think we actually already knew), maybe that we suck at multiplayer (at least in comparison), but that does not in fact imply that we need to study it more. That would only follow if we also assumed that we cared about multiplayer, but I think, in fact, that that generally isn't true.
I mean, I care about multiplayer, but I'm quite happy to not study it - it makes it more fun when I play with my friends, which is generally IRL.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: chwhite on August 07, 2011, 10:49:01 pm
I mean, I care about multiplayer, but I'm quite happy to not study it - it makes it more fun when I play with my friends, which is generally IRL.

This is a very good point. 
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: kn1tt3r on August 08, 2011, 01:12:23 am
Moving from 2p to multiplayer makes things more random and at the same time much more complicated to calculate, so it's not really worth the effort.

Some principles are simple (like buying Duchies earlier, i.e when there are about 5 Provinces left), some are trivial (the PPR applies just the same if all but one opponent are way behind in points), but to really go into depth of mulitplayer odds and chances it requires more than pencil and paper to calculate I believe.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Arya Stark on August 08, 2011, 01:19:34 am
So funny Theory, I was laughing while reading your post, ya multi player games are so different than 2 players online. I feel your pain though, I took 2nd at a little tournament due to lucky draws with jester and tournamnet prizes for the final game. It sucks losing to people that you know are not that good.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Axe Knight on August 08, 2011, 02:35:32 am
I'm sad I missed this.  Would have been good to actually meet some other players.  It's geographically very close, but I knew I'd be busy around this time.  4 player Dominion is far more of a crapshoot than 2, and being the first player can be huge.

I've heard third-hand that there was some... trouble... at the RGG Dominion tournament.  I imagine WBC organizers will have to be on the lookout for shenanigans--card-palming, false shuffles, etc.

Interesting.  Can anyone who was there evaluate this?
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Superdad on August 08, 2011, 09:28:46 am
As funny as this is, I played a completely relevant-to-this-conversation game against a 4 year old, 6 year old and 8 year old at the cottage this weekend.

I was teaching them the game and we hit our first 10-kindgom set game. In the kingdom was Pawn, and Great hall. For teaching purposes, I opened chapel - to show them why you want to trash your early cards. They all opened stuff like estate/great hall, or estate/duchy, etc.

Hilariously enough, with the buying frenzy for pawn/estate/great hall, the game ended on piles VERY early , and even though my deck was obviously way stronger, the game ended so quickly that I actually finished in second place to an 8 year old that opened duchy/pawn on a 5/2.

It kind of opened my eyes. In 4 player games, I think the largest thing to evaluate is group-think. If everyone is racing cheap cards, the game can pile-end VERY quickly. I mean VERY VERY quickly. I'm talking 10 to 11 turns quick.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rrenaud on August 08, 2011, 10:37:20 am
I got 5th.  I lost a game in semi finals where I perhaps got a bit too overzealous with ambassador.  On one turn with $11, I bought a wharf and a gold where I maybe should have taken just a province.  On my last turn in the losing game, I needed $8 to buy the last prov for the win, but hit $7 and got 3rd, 31-30-24-x.  I won the next game in semis where other players when Pirate Ship and I went Sea Hag, but a 1st and 3rd was not quite enough to make it to the 4 player finals.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: theory on August 08, 2011, 02:25:33 pm
Also, consider that the people that made the finals were those who successfully played 4-player against a large field.  They quite likely knew what they were doing in a multiplayer game far more than someone who plays consistently 2-player.  And in 4-player it is perfectly reasonable to end the game when you're in second, because it means you beat two other people; I don't know if you're wagging your finger at the person who ended the game while not in first, but I'd likely have done the same thing depending on the score and the scoring system.
No finger-wagging intended.  Two years ago I finished second because the last-place player ended it in last place, which I thought was definitely deserving of finger-wagging, but in this game I would have done the same thing because letting me accelerate up would have pushed her to third instead of second.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: theory on August 08, 2011, 02:31:31 pm
I've heard third-hand that there was some... trouble... at the RGG Dominion tournament.  I imagine WBC organizers will have to be on the lookout for shenanigans--card-palming, false shuffles, etc.
Interesting.  Can anyone who was there evaluate this?

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7220400#7220400

I recommend getting some popcorn.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: play2draw on August 08, 2011, 03:08:36 pm
I was just thinking... what I'd *really* like to see in a tournament is the debut of a new expansion thrust upon the unsuspecting tournament goers  ;D

As far as "studying" 3+ player games is concerned, considering that there exist tournaments that use games with 3+ players, I think there would be some value in having a few articles devoted to how the game can change as more players get added. I didn't intend to suggest that dominionstrategy should do anything radical like, say, rearrange the top-ten card lists to account for 3+ player games. Just that such a hub of Dominion would benefit with a more inclusive approach. I think that some of the individual card articles mention scaling with 3+ players, which is good.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: theory on August 08, 2011, 05:45:43 pm
Unfortunately, as I think this weekend demonstrates, I am not good enough at 3-4p games to write about it authoritatively!  I don't know if there are true experts out there at 3-4p.  I think they would have slaughtered me and the rest of the field.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Epoch on August 08, 2011, 06:04:05 pm
It feels like a 3-4p strategy guide would have to take into account a factor that's not very significant in 2p: what if really bad opponents dictate the pace of the game?

Like, theory's comment about ending a 4p game when you're dead last.  There's just...  not that problem in 2p.  Obviously, if a player ends the game and he's not first, his opponent is happy.

Or the entire concept of the tempo of the game being controlled by three players who don't know what they're doing.  In a 2p game, it's so rarely the case that someone who doesn't know what he's doing can cause the game to end unexpectedly quickly that you don't really need a robust strategy to deal with it.  Just, you know, keep an eye on short piles, and buy a VP or two if your opponent is madly ending the game on piles without any idea how to win.  Whereas if three buys come between each of your buys...  you might only have one or two turns worth of warning before you can conceivably go from "we're in mid-game" to "it ended."

That feels, then, like a 3p or 4p strategy would have to have a component of "gauge the quality of your opponents and figure out if they will play with basic understanding of how the game works," that 2p doesn't (99% of the time) need.  Which is kind of frustrating: I'm reminded of playing poker with a table full of calling stations: sure, there's a strategy (only play really good cards), but it's a frustrating strategy and it's entirely possible to not get good enough cards early enough to win, and so lose on luck.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 08, 2011, 06:11:57 pm
There's a whole lot more variance in the results as you add more players, because there are a whole lot more options. I wouldn't expect that you could do as well with more players (of comparable strength) as you could with fewer, even if you multiply by X/2 to compensate, even if you DID "know what you're doing".
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Davio on August 09, 2011, 04:00:34 am
Unfortunately, as I think this weekend demonstrates, I am not good enough at 3-4p games to write about it authoritatively!  I don't know if there are true experts out there at 3-4p.  I think they would have slaughtered me and the rest of the field.
I recognize this.

Playing almost 2p exclusively on Iso makes me a little befuddled when switching to 3p.
Attack cards become so much better with 3p.

I think you don't have to be mad that you lost against "worse" players, but look at your own strategy. I know I am in no position to criticize you, I think you could have realized 4p is a very different beast. If you get Swindled 3 times every turn and you don't do anything about it, you have a problem.

From my own experience, I feel 3p is exponentially different from 2p and 4p is exponentially different from 3p. There are a lot of cards which increase in value dramatically (good ol' Moat and other Reaction cards?) while others decrease somewhat. If your opponent plays a Witch in 2p, you go "meh, I'll take that 1 Curse." If 3 players play Witch against you and you don't have a Moat, you get 3 times as much Curses, bloating your deck way more than would happen with 2p.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Geronimoo on August 09, 2011, 05:04:42 am
An illustration how hugely different 2p, 3p and 4p games actually are:

Take the computer generated _Single Witch and _Single Moat strategies in the simulator and modify their buy rules a little by letting them buy 2 of the central card instead of 1 (so the Moat player actually opens Moat/Moat with $3/$4):

2 players (Witch against Moat)
The defender (15%) is a very big dog to the attacker (82%)

3 players (2 Witch players against 1 Moat player
The defender (21%) is a small dog to the 2 attackers (36%)

4 players (3 Witch players against 1 Moat player
The defender (37%) suddenly takes over and smashes his 3 attackers (19%)
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: guided on August 09, 2011, 06:54:10 am
4 players (3 Witch players against 1 Moat player
The defender (37%) suddenly takes over and smashes his 3 attackers (19%)
How about 3 Witch players vs. BMU? I suspect Moat is a net drag here ;)
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: DG on August 09, 2011, 07:55:25 am
BMU is a hamster against the witches, 2% win.

However, change the 2 witches to 2 sea hags and the money player is favourite, which is understandable since money player has 10 curses and the opponents have 7 curses and 2 sea hags. It all varies again though as soon as you have one player with two sea hags (22%), two players with one sea hag (28%), and one money player (15%).
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: DStu on August 09, 2011, 08:00:47 am
What is interesting in these comparision for Multiplayer-Cursers: Though the Curses tend to have a much hugher influence on the game, as they are dealt out much faster, the decision not to curse makes a much lesser difference in terms of how many curses you are expected to gain in comparision to the other players, if all other players will curse (without defenses):
In 2p it's obviously 10:0,
in 3p it's 10:5:5,
in 4p it's 10:7:7:6
And you see that you don't get more curses than in 2p, you just gain them faster.

You come back to the 2p relations if only one player curses, because then it's in every case
(10:10:)10:0
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Kirian on August 09, 2011, 03:30:24 pm
Huh.  So it seems the cheating thing was just a tiny side note, though it's hard to tell from the thread linked just how much that situation escalated.

In any case, I think between theory's and rrenaud's experiences, and the thread about the GenCon tourney, I won't be joining tournaments that are 1-on-1, just based on the possibility of kingmaking.  Especially true if it's a three-games-per-round format, which would make having 3- and 4-player games terrible.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rrenaud on August 09, 2011, 03:43:45 pm
I think WBC ran a great Dominion tournament this year, and that you should absolutely attend it if you are in the area.

That 2p is not the same as 4p and that we are much better in former is not a reason to dismiss the tournament as a whole.  Both of us learned about 4p game during/after the tournament.

I didn't observe any intentional cheating at the Dominion tournament this year (there was a little bit of "I play this remodel", "oh no you don't you ran out of actions", but it wasn't intentional cheating, and it there was always an apology and a quick retraction by the offending player). The GM even instituted a rule about opponents cutting your deck after a shuffle for the semis and finals.

Further, the GM explicitly gave permission for a player who was in the final to leave after round 1 to go to his other qualified final if he wanted to.

Of course, I am pretty interested in running a 2p Race and a 2p Dominion tournament aimed for more competitive rather than casual players at WBC, but I'll have to see if I can make it happen.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: HockeyHippo on August 09, 2011, 05:01:28 pm
I don't think a 4p Dominion tournament is a very good idea. I'm sure it was a lot of fun, but there is much more RNG in 4p that it would take way too many games to determine who the real best 4p Dominion player truly was.

I've played 250+ 2p Dominion games on Iso with about a 60% winning percentage and I play two 4p Dominion games every weekday(lunch break with coworkers). I'd estimate I've played about 120 4p Dominion games. So I'm at least a reasonably knowledgeable hybrid.

After playing online so much I thought I would destroy my opponents because of my experience. And much like you theory, I would cringe as I lost to players who only use Chapel for Estates. I noticed a few major differences between 4p and 2p.

Firstly, you can't take it seriously. It's a lot of fun, but you only win 25% of the time and there is way too much RNG. We play everyday and keep a leader board of the wins per month but it's casual and more fun that way.

Secondly,(I think this is known) attacks are way more effective in 4p. Bureaucrat can actually really hurt a Chapel strategy as you can go consecutive turns having your estates take away from your Chapel. Thief and Chapel is a very fun an interesting set up. It creates an interesting paradigm. Basically everyone is forced to open with Chapel because if you don't you'll be pretty far behind. But Thief then becomes an amazing card where you can actually receive 3 golds with one Thief. I once created a brilliant(self proclaimed :P) deck where I could draw my deck, play Thief a couple of times(taking some Golds) and then use a couple of drawers to pick them up immediately.

As a result of this, Reaction cards, especially against Curse givers, are far more viable since the Curse pile will still be decreasing even if you play your Reaction card.

Third, engines don't work nearly as well. Creating an engine is hindered more by Attack cards and there are less cards per player. The number of action cards does not increase in a 4p games compared to a 2p game so trying to build epic engines usually does not end very well.

Also, this kind of ties in with the last point. Many know this but the average VP card per player is less than it is in 2p. 8 Provinces/Colonys in 2p = 4 per person while in a 4 player game there are 12 Colonies resulting in 3 Colonies per player. This means you have less time to build your engine and  less time to use it. I guess this is a compensation for the increased number of Attacks played.

This is not to say strategies don't work. I played a Bishop/Minion game the other day which was only further accelerated by opponents Bishops and I won by a long shot. However I have played games where I've received 6 Coppers and 6 Curses in one round(double KC Montebank). 

Also something to note, playing a lot of 4 player games and 2 player games, does make you a better 3p player :P. One of our players has been away on vacation and I'm 6-2 in those 8 3p games.

Anyways, I think tournaments are very interesting and I'd love to compete in one. Even an online one!
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: fp on August 09, 2011, 05:01:45 pm
This is sad.

With hundreds of entrants, the organizers should have expected players to drop, and even if players "are not allowed" to drop. It is not unreasonable to assume, for example, that player to may get ill or simply leaving inappropriately, and the organizer should plan for that.

I must say Rio Grande dropped the ball here. They must cater to their customers; most notably, they must understand that most people that play Dominion also play other games, and if they are going to hold a tournament at a convention with thousands of other things their customers might want to do, they should expect and prepare that players are going to leave and they should not take it personally.

Sounds like we have a ways to go before Dominion tournaments get really going.
Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: HockeyHippo on August 09, 2011, 05:56:27 pm
This is sad.

With hundreds of entrants, the organizers should have expected players to drop, and even if players "are not allowed" to drop. It is not unreasonable to assume, for example, that player to may get ill or simply leaving inappropriately, and the organizer should plan for that.

I must say Rio Grande dropped the ball here. They must cater to their customers; most notably, they must understand that most people that play Dominion also play other games, and if they are going to hold a tournament at a convention with thousands of other things their customers might want to do, they should expect and prepare that players are going to leave and they should not take it personally.

Sounds like we have a ways to go before Dominion tournaments get really going.
Any suggestions?

I agree about Rio dropping the ball.

Anyways, yeah let's start another thread with people interested in starting a tournament.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: theory on August 09, 2011, 06:37:30 pm
The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rmgxt9 on August 09, 2011, 06:56:57 pm
I'm the guy who was posting in the thread over at boardgamegeek, and since that thread's closed I wanted to post here to apologize to anyone whose experience was lessened by my outburst. I was stunned by Mr. Tummelson's words and not thinking clearly; to be honest, I think I spent the rest of the day in a haze because of it and the whole thing's been eating at me for days. If I'd known how it would turned out I'd have either not dropped at all or just walked straight out of the room. Regardless of what Mr. Tummelson did to me, though, losing my temper was the absolute wrong way to handle things and for that I'm truly ashamed. Thank for the kind words, all of you who've pm'ed me to offer support, I truly appreciate it.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: DG on August 09, 2011, 07:05:03 pm
The advantage of four player rounds seems to be the qualification of two players to the next round. With three player semi finals you're probably looking at one player qualifying from three, so that might cause different problems. Three player rounds will also lead to more tied scores and more tie-breaker rulings.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Arya Stark on August 09, 2011, 07:34:28 pm
this is how my store runs tournaments, there is usually only 16-20 players, we had 21 once and it was tables of 3, that was my best 1  ;D

http://thegamerssanctuary.com/_PDF/Dominion%20Tournament%20Rules.pdf
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rod- on August 09, 2011, 08:18:02 pm
The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.
Players bring their own cards?  Works fine for magic.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 09, 2011, 08:30:07 pm
I just wanted to quickly point out that another reason 4p games should end faster, despite the more attacks, is that non-victory piles deplete MUCH faster with twice as many people trying to buy them.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: sherwinpr on August 09, 2011, 09:41:16 pm
The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.

Maybe RGG should sell some basic kits of the seven basic cards (which is about 220 cards).  For two players, there need only be 170 base cards, so if we could take out 10 coppers and 10 silvers, we could bring this to 150 without drastically changing the game, which makes it the size of a small expansion.  These would not only be excellent for tournaments, but also for players who don't want to sleeve their cards, but are only worried about wearing out their non-kingdom cards (once you own a lot of expansion, each individual kingdom card stack sees relatively infrequent play).  Perhaps this could run for $25 retail.

The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables?  Then all we needs is for each player to purchase half a basic kit, or just bring a basic kit along.

Alternatively, forget the basic kit idea.  Each player (or roughly half the players) bring their own basic cards from their own purchased set, and the kingdom cards are supplied by the tournament organizers.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Razzishi on August 11, 2011, 10:37:09 am
The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables? 

I'm not sure if a significant amount could be gained by finding out what cards are available at each table, especially if every player has equal access.  Unless there's a lot of potential downtime in the tournament for players to be practicing/simulating, I'm not sure how much of an advantage could be gained if everyone knows what every kingdom is going to be right when the tournament starts.  It's not like there's hidden information in the setup like there is in Bridge.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: sherwinpr on August 11, 2011, 04:05:10 pm
The rest is easy, even with one copy of the full game, you can support 13 games each with 10 disjoint kingdom cards; to make it more fair, players could rotate to different tables (like duplicate bridge?), but maybe there are fears of scouting these tables? 

I'm not sure if a significant amount could be gained by finding out what cards are available at each table, especially if every player has equal access.  Unless there's a lot of potential downtime in the tournament for players to be practicing/simulating, I'm not sure how much of an advantage could be gained if everyone knows what every kingdom is going to be right when the tournament starts.  It's not like there's hidden information in the setup like there is in Bridge.

This is quite true.  However, I noticed that in my original suggestion, there would be issues with Black Market (this is easiest to fix, maybe just have 11 games instead of 13, or have a spare full-sized expansion or base game on hand), Potion cards, and Colonies/Platinums, but I'm sure something could be worked out. 
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: HLennartz on August 23, 2011, 01:48:29 pm
If one considers the most important skill in Dominion "Adapting to new strategic situations," then the 3p/4p tournament idea is brilliant. All the highest-level players are so used to 2p that it tests this skill like nothing else could.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: painted_cow on August 23, 2011, 05:05:07 pm
3pl isnt a huge difference to 2pl.

4pl really is, cause of the 3 province per player than 4 provinces in 2pl and 3pl. that makes engines and trashing weaker and boosts straight BigMoney type of decks.

Knowing the skill of the opponents is really a key factor inside the game. When you spot a weaker opponent (many wrong buys etc.) then you have more time and need to get up to 6 provinces in a 3 player game for example.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: rrenaud on August 23, 2011, 05:28:52 pm
Well, there is a difference with 3p compared to 2p.  In 3p, if someone plays badly, that could hurt you.  3 player games are no longer zero sum.

theory lost in the Dominion finals two years ago when the last place player bought the last province.  Defense is more important as the number of players grows.  Cards that have strong self synergies aren't as good.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: HLennartz on August 24, 2011, 09:01:33 am
I was just thinking... what I'd *really* like to see in a tournament is the debut of a new expansion thrust upon the unsuspecting tournament goers  ;D...

Alternately, they could do like Richard Garfield did for one of the Magic: the Gathering Invitationals and make up a few proxied new cards used for that event only, getting a similar effect.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: ddubois on September 27, 2011, 05:44:18 pm
I lost to people who weren't familiar with the cards (e.g., I had my Coppers Swindled into more Coppers, and players bought Coppers).

Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html

Laura Dewalt says the decision to swindle coppers into not-curses was strategic choice, as everyone other than her had gone Ambassadors, and she didn't want the curses coming back at her.

(Of course, that prompts the question: why did she buy Swindler if she wasn't going to use its best feature?)
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Empathy on September 27, 2011, 08:17:54 pm
The fairest way to run a tournament (2-player only) is also the most impractical way to run a real-life tournament, since where are you going to find so many Dominion sets?  Maybe you could split big sets (e.g., Table 2 gets a random set of 10 comprised of cards not in Table 1), but that seems like a huge logistical barrier.

Maybe you could set up a situation like bridge/magic where the same kingdom is played over and over again on the same table. Each player would obviously switch table between rounds to not play a same kingdom twice. I don't know how practical this solution would be in terms of "peeking" at other tables, however. It would make games fairer in the sense that everyone would be playing the same kingdoms over the whole tournament.

Then the other issue is finding enough coppers/estates/gold and so on for each table, but not a full set of cards.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: cayvie on September 27, 2011, 10:00:00 pm
Huh.  So it seems the cheating thing was just a tiny side note, though it's hard to tell from the thread linked just how much that situation escalated.

In any case, I think between theory's and rrenaud's experiences, and the thread about the GenCon tourney, I won't be joining tournaments that are 1-on-1, just based on the possibility of kingmaking.  Especially true if it's a three-games-per-round format, which would make having 3- and 4-player games terrible.

Oh hey, I was there (finished 8th, I think). The guy who was caught cheating was sitting directly to my right when it happened. The guy across from him said "stop" on someone else's turn, called a judge, and asked "how many cards are in your hand?"

The guy clearly had six, and immediately folded, and admitted to grabbing a card (council room, I think) out of his discard pile during another person's turn.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: ratxt1 on September 27, 2011, 10:51:45 pm

Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html


this was painful to watch. some of the great strategy insights i have gained in this video (these are all paraphrases of stuff she said in the video) if i open tactician/embargo it might have been a better play to embargo the provinces (none having been bought) instead of the tacticians. island is an elite opener and should almost always be bought(and then more islands massed). swindler is a good thing to buy so you can swindle your opponets silvers into ambassodors. merchant ship was a goodbuy because its better than eexplorer. and last but not least you shouldn't swindle coppers into curses because of the wealth of ambassodors in your opponets deck (which you swindled there in the first place) 
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Karrow on September 29, 2011, 03:07:31 pm

Just watched http://www.nextlevelcardgames.com/2011/09/wbc-coverage-dominion-semifinals.html


this was painful to watch. some of the great strategy insights i have gained in this video (these are all paraphrases of stuff she said in the video) if i open tactician/embargo it might have been a better play to embargo the provinces (none having been bought) instead of the tacticians. island is an elite opener and should almost always be bought(and then more islands massed). swindler is a good thing to buy so you can swindle your opponets silvers into ambassodors. merchant ship was a goodbuy because its better than eexplorer. and last but not least you shouldn't swindle coppers into curses because of the wealth of ambassodors in your opponets deck (which you swindled there in the first place)

Unable to watch the the video at work, but I'd note for anyone to be careful criticizing 4-player strategy.

4p is VERY different.  3 piles can end the game on turn 8 without any extra buys, gains, or curses.  I've won 4p games with a 4-3-3-3 score buying one estate.  I've even won games with the starting 3vp simply because others trashed their opening estates and I did not.  Add any +buy, gain cards, or curse givers and things can get crazy.

For example, we all know that Pirate Ship and Thief suck.  CouncilRoom tells us so.  But I've seen countless times where a great 2-player gamer walks into a 4-player game and laughs and criticizes people as they buy these cards over a smithy because we all know smithy is better.  But after 2 rounds of the other 3 players all playing pirate ship or thief on their turns there comes a very long silence from they guy who was just telling everyone how stupid they were as he realizes that it's likely he will never draw a treasure again.

It's even funnier when they complain they only lost because other people played stupid.  They play stupid, but they keep winning?  4p strategy is different, not stupid.

For swindling silvers to ambassadors and not copper to curse?  It's not necessarily stupid in 4-player.  Lets say she swindles coppers to curses, then after the next shuffle 3 players ambassador the curse back.  How is she sitting now?  Swindle silver to ambassador?  That's turning their $2 producing non-terminal into a 0$ terminal.  A fast 3-pile 4-player game can get crazy fast with swindlers and ambassadors.  What are they going to do with ambassadors in a lightning fast 4p game?  Ambassador an estate?  That's a quick suicide.  Ambassador a copper?  In a fast 4p that can end on 3 piles that cost 3$ or less coppers don't really hurt that much.  So I'd say she may understand 4p swindler & ambassador better than many here.

Massing Islands stupid?  Again, in a 4p games that can end fast on 3 piles, things are different.  In games that can be won with estates, islands are very powerful.

For example of 4-player strangeness, here's a game where two opponents open 5-2 and they go with Ghost Ship & Saboteur.  We all know how long a Ghost Ship game can take, and two opponents have a province on me.  But I easily win on turn 16 with 0 Province, 1 Duchy, & 15 estates.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110919-205648-673377b2.html (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20110919-205648-673377b2.html)
Looking back at the game, I could have skipped the duchy.  Had I changed a few buys I could have won on turn 14.  But if you look at councilroom it shows that an average ghost ship province game takes 24 turns.  Of all cards in dominion, ghost ship is #5 in creating games with the most number of turns.  If you run the stats at 24+/-2, you'd think a 14 or 16 turn ghost ship game is extremely rare.  But the stats are heavily weighted to 2-player games.  I'd wager it's not as rare in a 4-player.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Taco Lobster on September 29, 2011, 04:14:58 pm
Interesting insights on 4p games in this thread.  I wonder how skill-intensive 4p games are.  I agree that they are a lot of fun, but you get so few hands to play (and it's so easy for someone in position 3 or 4 to pre-maturely end a game) shuffle luck seems to play an even larger role. 

If we're interested in investigating 4p v. 2p, maybe we could designate a particular day on Isotropic where we play such games.  That would give us a pool of skilled players and enough participants to run a 4p game on a regular basis.

Or 3p games.  I think guided's comment below about it being the best balanced matches my experience as well.  It allows for a more rock/scissor/paper style of play.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Epoch on September 29, 2011, 04:19:27 pm
I kind of wonder -- without much experience in 3+p games myself -- whether there are just a few too few cards in supply in 3p and 4p games.  Like, would they play better with 16 cards in supply instead of 12?
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: guided on September 29, 2011, 04:20:47 pm
3P I feel has the best game balance. 4P does start to become more of a test of shuffle luck.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: Buggz on September 29, 2011, 04:44:22 pm
I also enjoy 3P games the most. 4P games are still great fun, but rather because of the social aspect. I've tried a couple of 5P games, but then you're waiting too long before stuff happens, attack cards resolve astonishingly slow and the games tend to end after a rather short amount of turns that still takes a while to play, which in turn means the deck doesn't get shuffled that often.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: ratxt1 on September 29, 2011, 07:33:37 pm
Unable to watch the the video at work, but I'd note for anyone to be careful criticizing 4-player strategy.

though you could say that what she said was good strategy (which it could be) you can tell by watching the video that these are not the insights coming from a grandmaster. i think yes islands are a good buy but not as good as she makes it out to be. also you really have to hear her when she talks about embargoing the tactician. i'm pretty sure her quote went something like "i was suprised nobody bought tactician" you embargoed them! and they wern't even the best card in the kingdom

and it wasn' just me criticing her this was inspired by theroys post earlier on in the thread (where he expresses his frustrations on losing to these people)
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on September 29, 2011, 07:57:48 pm
I agree she doesn't come off as the most knowledgeable dominion expert in the video, but she's clearly at least a little bit good. She got 2nd place... Regarding her specific comments: Islands are good, but not worth skipping sea hag over (sea hag into island should beat straight-up island). The embargo thing confused me a little. And I really facepalmed at the thing about (rough quote) "I was going for cutpurse/bazaar/wharf but couldn't get enough bazaars (duh, you're trying to get multiple kinds of $5 cards in a 4p game...), and I added a navigator since if you draw cutpurse bazaar and navigator together, that's $5 so you can probably get to $8 (you can say that about practically any 3 cards...)".

But it's funny to think that she and her friends could be looking at theory's blog and criticizing the same way. "Double ambassador? Lol. That's so n00b. If your opponents just get swindler to drain the piles, and your deck will never kick in". Clearly something that didn't occur to theory before that game, but pretty sound logic for a 4-player game...
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: DG on September 29, 2011, 08:17:40 pm

What she said generally made some sort of sense and I only really have a problem about what she didn't say. Moving away from your preconceptions and putting together a new strategy is good Dominion. Buying islands and skipping nasty attacks was bold and proved correct. Perhaps if two people had tried it they would have denied each other vp and failed, but that's 4 player Dominion. She decided during the course of a game to swindle silver-> ambassadors and copper->copper, and it probably wasn't her original intention, but she was probably right, so that's good play too.
Title: Re: Any GenCon or WBC news?
Post by: timchen on September 29, 2011, 08:50:22 pm
One big problem of a 4p game, is that the "bad play" from others can hurt you. This never happens in a 2p game. That being said, 4p ambassador is interesting. Estates will go like crazy if 2 players or more are ambassadoring. Trying to thin the deck sounds impractical. Indeed if 3 piles is a possibility it is probably a good idea to grab points early.