Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Personman on August 19, 2012, 04:53:43 pm

Title: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Personman on August 19, 2012, 04:53:43 pm
Out of curiosity, is there an amount of money that could be raised and given to Jay that would convince him to let isotropic remain available? I had thought that perhaps the switch to Goko wouldn't be so bad after all, once they implemented some promised features, but now my trust for them is tanking hard. A wonderful community that I love is being destroyed and replaced by a pile of junk patched together by incompetent clowns, and it is worth quite a bit to me to save it.

I assume that there are contracts and such that would make any such scheme completely unworkable, but I'd still like to know what kind of cash it would take. If we did a kickstarter-esque fundraiser and got, say, $20k, would we be even a little bit close? I'm sure that's not nearly the expected value of online Dominion as a whole, but presumably lots of people will still prefer the shinier and oficialer client and give them money, while the more diehard isotropic fans will have paid up front for our beloved interface, game logs, and Councilroom statistics.

I'd personally be in for a thousand dollars if there were a chance of this becoming a reality. I'm only recently out of college and making fairly decent money, and I don't really spend it on all that much. It would be a big hit, but if I was actually instrumental in saving Isotropic, it would be worth every penny.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 19, 2012, 04:58:47 pm
Out of curiosity, is there an amount of money that could be raised and given to Jay that would convince him to let isotropic remain available?
You mean, raised and given to Goko? Besides whatever else, I don't imagine there is anything Jay could legally do.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: pingpongsam on August 19, 2012, 05:25:12 pm
I'm down for $85 which is what I'd have to spend on Goko for the same thing which I probably won't do otherwise.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Robz888 on August 19, 2012, 05:32:28 pm
... or, like, could the Goko people be persuaded to buy Isotropic, or something? I just don't get it. There's this great online version already that everybody loves and would be more than willing to pay for...
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Graystripe77 on August 19, 2012, 05:34:56 pm
... or, like, could the Goko people be persuaded to buy Isotropic, or something? I just don't get it. There's this great online version already that everybody loves and would be more than willing to pay for...

Came to say this. They should just be Iso.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 19, 2012, 05:54:12 pm
... or, like, could the Goko people be persuaded to buy Isotropic, or something? I just don't get it. There's this great online version already that everybody loves and would be more than willing to pay for...

Came to say this. They should just be Iso.

Seriously. There would be zero downside to them (except the embarrassment factor) to just buying iso, running it simultaneously and selling access for the same price as their system. I would pay at least $100 for this.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: carstimon on August 19, 2012, 06:11:16 pm
Seriously. There would be zero downside to them (except the embarrassment factor) to just buying iso...
Except they want to go beyond Dominion.  If they used isotropic then they couldn't go to other people and say, "Hi, look at this thing Dominion which we programmed please let us make your official application."

I guess that's included in embarrassment factor but it's a really big deal to a new company.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: sitnaltax on August 19, 2012, 06:26:58 pm
... or, like, could the Goko people be persuaded to buy Isotropic, or something? I just don't get it. There's this great online version already that everybody loves and would be more than willing to pay for...

Came to say this. They should just be Iso.

Seriously. There would be zero downside to them (except the embarrassment factor) to just buying iso, running it simultaneously and selling access for the same price as their system. I would pay at least $100 for this.

Here's the problem. I would gladly pay $250 for Iso. But if Iso cost $250, it wouldn't be worth the price, because nobody would be there to play against.

In my mind, I dream of a "save Iso" Kickstarter, to which I would donate heavily, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: anlin_wang on August 19, 2012, 06:31:05 pm
Out of curiosity, is there an amount of money that could be raised and given to Jay that would convince him to let isotropic remain available? I had thought that perhaps the switch to Goko wouldn't be so bad after all, once they implemented some promised features, but now my trust for them is tanking hard. A wonderful community that I love is being destroyed and replaced by a pile of junk patched together by incompetent clowns, and it is worth quite a bit to me to save it.

I assume that there are contracts and such that would make any such scheme completely unworkable, but I'd still like to know what kind of cash it would take. If we did a kickstarter-esque fundraiser and got, say, $20k, would we be even a little bit close? I'm sure that's not nearly the expected value of online Dominion as a whole, but presumably lots of people will still prefer the shinier and oficialer client and give them money, while the more diehard isotropic fans will have paid up front for our beloved interface, game logs, and Councilroom statistics.

I'd personally be in for a thousand dollars if there were a chance of this becoming a reality. I'm only recently out of college and making fairly decent money, and I don't really spend it on all that much. It would be a big hit, but if I was actually instrumental in saving Isotropic, it would be worth every penny.

Dude, not completely unreasonable.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: werothegreat on August 19, 2012, 06:42:15 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.

So let's move on.

And Goko is really not as bad as everyone is making them out to be.  Sure, they flubbed the launch.  That happens sometimes.  They're a new company, and they weren't ready for that kind of traffic.  Instead of belittling them, we should instead be giving constructive criticism.  Do you really think Trisha and co. really enjoy reading about how much we hate their product?  Can the vitriol.

And they have listened.  We wanted logs, they gave us logs.  We wanted a better way to deal with large hands, they gave us iso-style stacking.  They are doing the best they can.

When they make mistakes, let them know, and they will try to fix them - they've been doing a pretty good job of that so far.  But if all you're going to do is continue to say "wah iso was so awesome, goko is terrible" just to get on that particular bandwagon, you really need to back off.

So yes, Goko is not perfect.  Yes, Goko is not iso.  But they're what we've got, and what we're going to have, so let's move forward, shall we?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 19, 2012, 06:44:37 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.

So let's move on.

And Goko is really not as bad as everyone is making them out to be.  Sure, they flubbed the launch.  That happens sometimes.  They're a new company, and they weren't ready for that kind of traffic.  Instead of belittling them, we should instead be giving constructive criticism.  Do you really think Trisha and co. really enjoy reading about how much we hate their product?  Can the vitriol.

And they have listened.  We wanted logs, they gave us logs.  We wanted a better way to deal with large hands, they gave us iso-style stacking.  They are doing the best they can.

When they make mistakes, let them know, and they will try to fix them - they've been doing a pretty good job of that so far.  But if all you're going to do is continue to say "wah iso was so awesome, goko is terrible" just to get on that particular bandwagon, you really need to back off.

So yes, Goko is not perfect.  Yes, Goko is not iso.  But they're what we've got, and what we're going to have, so let's move forward, shall we?

You don't like it, go read another thread.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Insomniac on August 19, 2012, 06:46:36 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.

So let's move on.

And Goko is really not as bad as everyone is making them out to be.  Sure, they flubbed the launch.  That happens sometimes.  They're a new company, and they weren't ready for that kind of traffic.  Instead of belittling them, we should instead be giving constructive criticism.  Do you really think Trisha and co. really enjoy reading about how much we hate their product?  Can the vitriol.

And they have listened.  We wanted logs, they gave us logs.  We wanted a better way to deal with large hands, they gave us iso-style stacking.  They are doing the best they can.

When they make mistakes, let them know, and they will try to fix them - they've been doing a pretty good job of that so far.  But if all you're going to do is continue to say "wah iso was so awesome, goko is terrible" just to get on that particular bandwagon, you really need to back off.

So yes, Goko is not perfect.  Yes, Goko is not iso.  But they're what we've got, and what we're going to have, so let's move forward, shall we?

I like Goko but let's be reasonable too they have a bunch of testers they aren't paying for that they aren't utilizing, who in the beta doesn't intend to buy it because they've already tested the adventure mode or because they already tested dark ages, Goko NEEDS to fully utilize their testers and right now they aren't. They still haven't put up v400 yet which was their launch candidate instead they still have the testers on 378 without dark ages, thats just silly. I don't expect Goko to wait to launch until we all say its ready because that would never happen but they should definitely not launch when they're having XSS JS bugs discovered and everyone is saying at the top of their lungs that it isn't ready..
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 19, 2012, 07:22:54 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.

Just to clarify, Donald X has a contract with RGG, and Jay has a contract with FS/Goko.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 19, 2012, 07:58:25 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.
Buying FunSockets could change it, but the price tag for that would be fairly large. :P
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Nakamura on August 19, 2012, 09:14:54 pm
Yeah, Dominion Strategy Forum should do a kickstarter to buy Goko.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Robz888 on August 19, 2012, 09:16:49 pm
If someone wants to reveal that they are a Dominion-obsessed millionaire, now is the time.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 19, 2012, 09:25:13 pm
If someone wants to reveal that they are a Dominion-obsessed millionaire, now is the time.
With Goko reportedly having $8 million in funding, more like billionaire.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 19, 2012, 09:28:51 pm
If someone wants to reveal that they are a Dominion-obsessed millionaire, now is the time.
With Goko reportedly having $8 million in funding, more like billionaire.

@ 3.5 million copies sold - assuming that Donald earned more than ~30 cents per copy, there should be at least 1 in the world.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 19, 2012, 09:40:51 pm
I assume that Goko paid a pretty penny for the rights for online Dominion, probably at least, $200K. I am sure they see it worth much more than that, so I don't think they will sell for anything less. Plus, there are all sorts of legal contracts and kinks that would nee to be worked out. This thread isn't realistic to be honest.

iso is going down. We can either adapt and move on with Goko, play irl only, or just give up Dominion altogether. I am not saying this to be a jerk. I am saying this because these are our only realistic options.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Tombolo on August 19, 2012, 09:50:03 pm
but guys if we raise a couple thousand bucks Donald X will ride in on a blue dog and fix everything

he will probably even pay us to play isotropic because he owes us pizza
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 19, 2012, 10:07:18 pm
@ 3.5 million copies sold
[citation needed] [dubious - discuss]
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Kahryl on August 19, 2012, 10:52:54 pm
Please consider this. I am very unlikely to ever touch Goko. That kind of implementation/interface doesn't interest me and doesn't fit into the context in which I play dominion. But I would proudly pay unreasonably large sums of money to them or you or whoever has the authority to just keep what I have. You know, pay for something that already exists and needs no development. A one-time cash-out of $85 would be a bargain to me.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 19, 2012, 11:03:07 pm
@ 3.5 million copies sold
[citation needed] [dubious - discuss]
The number comes from Goko themselves (http://vimeo.com/user12813231):
Quote
Up first is Dominion, a wildly popular deck building strategy game that has sold 3.5 million copies to date.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 19, 2012, 11:07:40 pm
It seems high though. Back at the beginning of 2011, RGG reported (http://www.riograndegames.com/uploads/FileUpload/news106.pdf):
Quote
Dominion continues to grow in popularity and size: by the end of 2010, we had sold over one million copies of Dominion in its various langauges and expansions.
So that's ~1 million in ~27 months. It's been ~20 months since the end of 2010, so extrapolating gives a very rough estimate of ~1.8 million copies total sold, which is about half of what Goko claims.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: jsh357 on August 19, 2012, 11:18:07 pm
Maybe they were factoring in expansions?  Hm.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 19, 2012, 11:23:54 pm
Maybe they were factoring in expansions?  Hm.
The RGG number includes all translations and expansions.

Maybe it's that sales increased after end of 2010, from word of mouth and greater number of available expansions?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 19, 2012, 11:51:05 pm
The number comes from Goko themselves (http://vimeo.com/user12813231):
I will let them know of this error!
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 19, 2012, 11:53:17 pm
The number comes from Goko themselves (http://vimeo.com/user12813231):
I will let them know of this error!

I totally didn't make it up.  I read and watched my press releases like a good boy.  Can't believe you didn't trust me!
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 20, 2012, 12:00:33 am
I totally didn't make it up.  I read and watched my press releases like a good boy.  Can't believe you didn't trust me!
Man, I said I needed a citation. No-one said you hadn't successfully passed along a false number without mangling it.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: dondon151 on August 20, 2012, 01:13:32 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: eHalcyon on August 20, 2012, 01:17:29 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: dondon151 on August 20, 2012, 01:27:42 am
I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)

Honestly, I don't even want a bot. I just want a bare bones implementation where I can say what cards I want to use and they just do stuff. Attack cards do nothing in solitaire games, so they'd just be the same cards without an attacking effect. I mean, we all know that X strategy gets Y Provinces in Z turns, so we're just competing against out prior knowledge. (ffs I will do this damn thing myself, for myself if I have to. I would rather not break out my physical sets and solitaire at a table if I wanted to. People would think that I'm batshit crazy.)

And thanks :D
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 20, 2012, 01:55:00 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.
Goko also can do solitaire. Is the problem the animations? We can still hope they eventually offer a no-animation option.

(Also, I'm curious why solitaire isotropic helped so much. Engine practice? Testing strategies?)

On a related note, on a technical level, it's completely possible for a browser extension to replace the Goko interface with an imitation of isotropic's interface. I've poked enough at the Goko client at this point to know that it can be done.

Problem is: it'd take a fair bit of time to make (because of needing to fully reverse engineer the isotropic interface and the Goko protocol, then getting the two to interact convincingly); few people would use it; and for all I know, Goko might end up banning 3rd-party extensions. But if some enterprising JavaScript/HTML coder wants to do it, I can tell you everything I know.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Piemaster on August 20, 2012, 01:57:57 am
I guess if someone did package up a solitaire version of Iso that just ran on the client PC there would be nothing Goko could really do about it, as long as nobody was actually selling it.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 20, 2012, 03:39:30 am
I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)

Honestly, I don't even want a bot. I just want a bare bones implementation where I can say what cards I want to use and they just do stuff. Attack cards do nothing in solitaire games, so they'd just be the same cards without an attacking effect. I mean, we all know that X strategy gets Y Provinces in Z turns, so we're just competing against out prior knowledge. (ffs I will do this damn thing myself, for myself if I have to. I would rather not break out my physical sets and solitaire at a table if I wanted to. People would think that I'm batshit crazy.)

And thanks :D

When I used to play Magic, I would playtest my decks by playing against myself. I would pretend I didn't know the hand of my other deck. I never played Magic Online, and well, this was before Magic Online existed, so playing against myself was the best way to test strategies.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: dondon151 on August 20, 2012, 03:43:37 am
Goko also can do solitaire. Is the problem the animations? We can still hope they eventually offer a no-animation option.

I do not want to pay for Goko just to play solitaire, as I do not, and never have, had any intention to play Dominion competitively online. Maybe that might change in the future, but online gaming is something that I swore off of years ago because I felt like I couldn't adequately exercise enough self-discipline.

(Also, I'm curious why solitaire isotropic helped so much. Engine practice? Testing strategies?)

Pretty much. Before I owned Cornucopia or Alchemy, I solitaired interesting kingdoms that I found in Game Reports to get a feel of the cards. My IRL play group has soft banned quite a few cards and we always bias our kingdom selection away from money-ish kingdoms, so Iso solitaire filled in some of the gaps.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: loppo on August 20, 2012, 11:32:47 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

dondon, you got a PM.

How did you get your US champion 2012 line? I want to have a Austrian champion 2012 line in my profile :-(
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: theory on August 20, 2012, 11:35:50 am
Check again ;-)
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: KingsSkort on August 20, 2012, 11:40:56 am
Reading between the lines, it sounds like, essentially, RGG (and other publishers?) has licensed their catalog (or a portion of it?) to Goko for Goko to use in their evil Zyngafication of board gaming. Obviously iso has no part in that. Even if iso isn't directly draining revenue, it's not contributing to the Goko platform. Also, Funsockets appears to be venture-backed, so they're probably very obsessed with showing growth in their platform, and not interested at all in earning a small amount of revenue from a pre-existing side product.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: loppo on August 20, 2012, 11:47:13 am
Check again ;-)

Man thanks theory, that was real fast.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: GendoIkari on August 20, 2012, 11:56:03 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like some sort of non-public version so I could at least continue to play with my wife at home. We enjoy playing Dominion against each other quite a bit; we can always play the physical cards (which we own all of, except DA), but that does take a good bit more time to play a game.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on August 20, 2012, 02:46:42 pm
Check again ;-)

Man thanks theory, that was real fast.
Your reasonable wish, is his reasonable command.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Schlippy on August 20, 2012, 06:31:49 pm
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on August 20, 2012, 06:52:15 pm
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.

Darknet Dominion!  Let's make it happen.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 20, 2012, 08:16:20 pm
The utilitarian in me wants something, anything, besides the trash bin to be the final destination for iso's code.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 20, 2012, 08:18:24 pm
The utilitarian in me wants something, anything, besides the trash bin to be the final destination for iso's code.
My dream scenario:

- Isotropic's front-end gets reworked as an optional replacement for Goko's front-end, possibly as a browser extension (because then Goko's devs don't need to do any work).

- Isotropic's back-end gets an API that allows AI's to play each other.

Also it'd be a great learning experience to read the code, because dougz is a much better programmer than I am.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Jive Junkie on August 21, 2012, 03:39:07 pm
The utilitarian in me wants something, anything, besides the trash bin to be the final destination for iso's code.
My dream scenario:

- Isotropic's front-end gets reworked as an optional replacement for Goko's front-end, possibly as a browser extension (because then Goko's devs don't need to do any work).

- Isotropic's back-end gets an API that allows AI's to play each other.

Also it'd be a great learning experience to read the code, because dougz is a much better programmer than I am.

That's basically my dream scenario, too, and I came in to post just that. To add to it, why couldn't Goko just buy the right to use Isotropic's code anyway, and use what they can? Obviously they'd make the default view look really nice, but there's something to be said about the speed and stability of the current isotropic engine. Users could have the option to turn off animations and use a more text-based interface, and that should meet most people's needs, right?

Note that I know very little about programming, so I don't know how easy it is to adapt code from one framework to another...
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Jedit on August 21, 2012, 04:59:13 pm
Seriously. There would be zero downside to them (except the embarrassment factor) to just buying iso...
Except they want to go beyond Dominion.  If they used isotropic then they couldn't go to other people and say, "Hi, look at this thing Dominion which we programmed please let us make your official application."

I guess that's included in embarrassment factor but it's a really big deal to a new company.

So you think there's no embarrassment factor in Goko having failed to do with $8m in funding what two other guys have already done by themselves in their spare time for free?  This failure to launch is a huge blow for them. 
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 21, 2012, 06:41:11 pm
The utilitarian in me wants something, anything, besides the trash bin to be the final destination for iso's code.
My dream scenario:

- Isotropic's front-end gets reworked as an optional replacement for Goko's front-end, possibly as a browser extension (because then Goko's devs don't need to do any work).

- Isotropic's back-end gets an API that allows AI's to play each other.

Also it'd be a great learning experience to read the code, because dougz is a much better programmer than I am.

That's basically my dream scenario, too, and I came in to post just that. To add to it, why couldn't Goko just buy the right to use Isotropic's code anyway, and use what they can? Obviously they'd make the default view look really nice, but there's something to be said about the speed and stability of the current isotropic engine. Users could have the option to turn off animations and use a more text-based interface, and that should meet most people's needs, right?

Note that I know very little about programming, so I don't know how easy it is to adapt code from one framework to another...

It's more that it doesn't improve their portfolio much to do that, I think.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: elkabong on August 23, 2012, 09:37:27 am
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.
Buying FunSockets could change it, but the price tag for that would be fairly large. :P
Yes, I am sure of that.  I believe Funsockets to be created almost ENTIRELY as a company designed to be sold.  I would be  very surprised if they aren't sold to Zynga or some other online behemoth within the year. 

They have done everything to indicate this.  Minimal development costs (hey, who needs project managers?!?!)  .  Minimal licensing costs with maximum license names.  And unbelievable app costs, all based on the very waste-creating "coins" system.  THey have been designed from the ground-up, simply to be sold. 
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: elkabong on August 23, 2012, 09:41:35 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.
If he could be convinced to remove all the card-names from the game and release the code, you'd be 100% laughing.  Unfortunately, I think he is tied in some way to the developers (Donald et al) and the distributors (Jay et al), so I doubt he will do that. 

The mechanics of games are not protectable by copyright, so the game could simply be brought back to life with a new name, and all new card names.   Oh, how sweet that would be. 
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 23, 2012, 09:43:55 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.
If he could be convinced to remove all the card-names from the game and release the code, you'd be 100% laughing.  Unfortunately, I think he is tied in some way to the developers (Donald et al) and the distributors (Jay et al), so I doubt he will do that. 

The mechanics of games are not protectable by copyright, so the game could simply be brought back to life with a new name, and all new card names.   Oh, how sweet that would be. 
Except I don't really feel like doing something so sticking-it-to Donald.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 23, 2012, 09:47:20 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.
If he could be convinced to remove all the card-names from the game and release the code, you'd be 100% laughing.  Unfortunately, I think he is tied in some way to the developers (Donald et al) and the distributors (Jay et al), so I doubt he will do that. 

The mechanics of games are not protectable by copyright, so the game could simply be brought back to life with a new name, and all new card names.   Oh, how sweet that would be. 
Except I don't really feel like doing something so sticking-it-to Donald.
I'd be fine with it. Kick him some money if you really feel bad.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 23, 2012, 10:04:19 am
I'm pretty sure you would have to do more than just change the names of the cards to avoid legal problems.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 23, 2012, 10:07:47 am
I'm pretty sure you would have to do more than just change the names of the cards to avoid legal problems.

Yes, you'd need a new name and new art.
But you can't copyright something like "+2 cards +1 action", and copyright law specifically excludes game rules.
This is half the reason RGG has been so "cool" about unauthorized apps.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Tombolo on August 23, 2012, 11:13:56 am
I know that decisions have been made and all, but I would personally enjoy a solitaire-only version of Isotropic, because that is really one of two reasons why I am any good at this game at all. Not sure if anyone else feels the same about this.

I would like an offline solitaire version, maybe with a bot (rudimentary, advanced, whatever).  I play Androminion way more than I should.

By the way, congrats on your new blue star. :)
Dunno what dougz is going to do with the code, but if he removes the card names I can totally see you/us playing solitaire isotropic on a local server in a few months, or see GendoIkari playing with his wife in a local network.
If he could be convinced to remove all the card-names from the game and release the code, you'd be 100% laughing.  Unfortunately, I think he is tied in some way to the developers (Donald et al) and the distributors (Jay et al), so I doubt he will do that. 

The mechanics of games are not protectable by copyright, so the game could simply be brought back to life with a new name, and all new card names.   Oh, how sweet that would be. 
Except I don't really feel like doing something so sticking-it-to Donald.

Are we even sticking it to Donald at that point?  I mean, he asked us not to do stuff like that, so I for one won't, but didn't he also say something about how he might not be getting any money out of the whole goko thing?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: FireChipmunks on August 23, 2012, 11:14:50 am
So if we just change all the names, art, and terminology, it's legal? So we could create a game called, like, Farminion, where village gives you +1 Animal (because each card in your hand is an animal now) and +2 Cows, (because cows give milk, which makes you strong and lets you do more things) and the village is renamed to "Cow Pasture"? And "+Buy" can be renamed to "+Tame"...because you're taming the wild animals. The kingdom btw is just called the set of wild animals now, and your deck is your farm!
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 11:17:16 am
So if we just change all the names, art, and terminology, it's legal? So we could create a game called, like, Farminion, where village gives you +1 Animal (because each card in your hand is an animal now) and +2 Cows, (because cows give milk, which makes you strong and lets you do more things) and the village is renamed to "Cow Pasture"? And "+Buy" can be renamed to "+Tame"...because you're taming the wild animals. The kingdom btw is just called the set of wild animals now, and your deck is your farm!

IANAL, but my understanding is that this would be legal, but possibly dickish.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Karrow on August 23, 2012, 12:31:54 pm
So if we just change all the names, art,

Stop right there.  That's all you need, new names and art.  Game mechanics are supposedly not able to be patented.

Look at all the Tetris clones out there.   Charge the art and name, then your good to go.

Now Isotropic would never intentionally publish their code, but lets just say it could be accidentally ;) and completely unintentionally ;) leaked.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 23, 2012, 12:41:35 pm
So if we just change all the names, art, and terminology, it's legal? So we could create a game called, like, Farminion, where village gives you +1 Animal (because each card in your hand is an animal now) and +2 Cows, (because cows give milk, which makes you strong and lets you do more things) and the village is renamed to "Cow Pasture"? And "+Buy" can be renamed to "+Tame"...because you're taming the wild animals. The kingdom btw is just called the set of wild animals now, and your deck is your farm!

IANAL, but my understanding is that this would be legal, but possibly dickish.

When I've already paid for intellectual property once, I really don't feel like I want to pay for it again..  My code of ethics compels me to buy IP at least once, but it doesn't compel me to buy it a second time.
The law doesn't compel me to buy this IP even once, apparently, since game mechanics are difficult to copyright. Lab probably shouldn't be copyrightable, but releasing Masquerade and Duke's mechanics both in the same set probably should be.  But it isn't. 
If someone built an online zombinion and I had already bought the paper version of all the cards it used, I would not feel bad for using it.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 12:43:03 pm
So if we just change all the names, art, and terminology, it's legal? So we could create a game called, like, Farminion, where village gives you +1 Animal (because each card in your hand is an animal now) and +2 Cows, (because cows give milk, which makes you strong and lets you do more things) and the village is renamed to "Cow Pasture"? And "+Buy" can be renamed to "+Tame"...because you're taming the wild animals. The kingdom btw is just called the set of wild animals now, and your deck is your farm!

IANAL, but my understanding is that this would be legal, but possibly dickish.

When I've already paid for intellectual property once, I really don't feel like I want to pay for it again..  My code of ethics compels me to buy IP at least once, but it doesn't compel me to buy it a second time.
The law doesn't compel me to buy this IP even once, apparently, since game mechanics are difficult to copyright. Lab probably shouldn't be copyrightable, but releasing Masquerade and Duke's mechanics both in the same set probably should be.  But it isn't. 
If someone built an online zombinion and I had already bought the paper version of all the cards it used, I would not feel bad for using it.

I would probably feel compelled to give goko my money before I used online zombiminion.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 23, 2012, 12:46:33 pm
So if we just change all the names, art, and terminology, it's legal? So we could create a game called, like, Farminion, where village gives you +1 Animal (because each card in your hand is an animal now) and +2 Cows, (because cows give milk, which makes you strong and lets you do more things) and the village is renamed to "Cow Pasture"? And "+Buy" can be renamed to "+Tame"...because you're taming the wild animals. The kingdom btw is just called the set of wild animals now, and your deck is your farm!

IANAL, but my understanding is that this would be legal, but possibly dickish.

When I've already paid for intellectual property once, I really don't feel like I want to pay for it again..  My code of ethics compels me to buy IP at least once, but it doesn't compel me to buy it a second time.
The law doesn't compel me to buy this IP even once, apparently, since game mechanics are difficult to copyright. Lab probably shouldn't be copyrightable, but releasing Masquerade and Duke's mechanics both in the same set probably should be.  But it isn't. 
If someone built an online zombinion and I had already bought the paper version of all the cards it used, I would not feel bad for using it.

I would probably feel compelled to give goko my money before I used online zombiminion.
I don't.  But I'm open to being sold on why I should.  I feel like once I've paid for the mechanics of Dominion in some form, I've paid for the mechanics of dominion.  If I want to convert it to bag of chips, online play, or a version with dice, it doesn't matter, I've already given Donald money for coming up with the mechanics, through RGG.  Doing so through Goko alternatively would be fine too, if I bought all the cards there.

Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 12:55:41 pm
I'd almost it as DVD vs. BluRay.  If I own a DVD - i have no moral issue pirating a lower fidelity reason (as I could just rip it myself).  But if I pirated the Bluray rip - then I'm receiving a higher quality product than what I actually paid for.

Now - online dominion in many ways is better than real life dominion... maybe?

If I play online zombiminion in place of gokominion - then I'm actually taking money away from goko.  They paid for the exclusive rights for dominion - and should be entitled to reap the rewards of that savvy business strategy.

Because I don't like how the whole thing has gone down - I suspect I'd probably just piss and moan on the internet and play tribes instead.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 23, 2012, 12:59:01 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 23, 2012, 01:01:15 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: blueblimp on August 23, 2012, 01:01:57 pm
This ship has sailed, iso is going away, stop making threads like this.  Seriously.  Donald X has signed with Goko, there's nothing that really can be done about that, even if he wanted to.
Buying FunSockets could change it, but the price tag for that would be fairly large. :P
Yes, I am sure of that.  I believe Funsockets to be created almost ENTIRELY as a company designed to be sold.  I would be  very surprised if they aren't sold to Zynga or some other online behemoth within the year. 

They have done everything to indicate this.  Minimal development costs (hey, who needs project managers?!?!)  .  Minimal licensing costs with maximum license names.  And unbelievable app costs, all based on the very waste-creating "coins" system.  THey have been designed from the ground-up, simply to be sold.
I see it the opposite way. Internet companies that want to be bought don't seem to care much about making money, instead going for a large user count. That means low prices or even free, possibly even free with no ads. The idea is that, once bought, the buyer can monetize the users. If you have a small, stable number of users who are paying a reasonable price, then there's no room to make more money.

FunSockets might get bought, but I don't think they're planning on it.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 01:02:33 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.

You could also use the DVD and a film crew to reshoot the entire movie.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Kahryl on August 23, 2012, 01:03:31 pm
I don't want to stick it to Donald either, and just because something is legal doesn't make it ethical.

On the other hand if things really are as bad as they look (Donald signing off 5 years of Dominion to wannabe-Zynga buffoons with a checkbook) it might end up the only option.

I am happy to pay - a lot - for the rights to use the game (and I have in the form of physical base set and two expansions), but I really am not willing to be monetized, socialized, or made to fuck around with fake currency.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 23, 2012, 01:07:07 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 

@Kahryal - Don't twist my words.  I said that I think playing Zombinion, after buying paper dominion, in full, is both legal and ethical.  I didn't say it was ethical because it was legal.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Tombolo on August 23, 2012, 01:12:33 pm
(Donald signing off 5 years of Dominion to wannabe-Zynga buffons with a checkbook)

Isn't it more Jay's decision than Donald's?  I am under the impression that most of this is out of DXV's hands.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Kahryl on August 23, 2012, 01:15:24 pm
@Kahryal - Don't twist my words.  I said that I think playing Zombinion, after buying paper dominion, in full, is both legal and ethical.  I didn't say it was ethical because it was legal.

I wasn't replying to you. In fact I only skimmed this topic and haven't read your arguments (though I will now!). Sorry if the timing of my post gave the wrong impression  :)
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 01:35:45 pm
(Donald signing off 5 years of Dominion to wannabe-Zynga buffons with a checkbook)

Isn't it more Jay's decision than Donald's?  I am under the impression that most of this is out of DXV's hands.

If I understand it correctly it works like this:

Donald has leased / rented the (exclusive?) rights to Dominion in all forms to RGG for some period of time which is less than 5 years from today - presumably in exchange for some combination of upfront fixed monies, recurring fixed monies, and recurring % of profit / revenue monies.

RGG (Jay) has given the exclusive rights to digital dominion to Goko - in exchange for some form of compensation - which may or may not trickle down to Donald - depending on DX's contract with RGG.  As part of that agreement - RGG is revoking any tolerance for other digital implementations (on and offline)

There are rumors floating around around the goko deal being 5 years - but DXV has indicated that RGG can't license it further than his contract with them, which has less than 5 years remaining.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 23, 2012, 01:37:31 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 
Really? That's fine? So if studio X want to remake huge summer blockbuster Y and release it next summer, that's fine?
If I buy a book, can I type it up word for word, and go get it published, and try to make it as an author?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 23, 2012, 01:43:08 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 
Really? That's fine? So if studio X want to remake huge summer blockbuster Y and release it next summer, that's fine?
If I buy a book, can I type it up word for word, and go get it published, and try to make it as an author?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 01:44:10 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 
Really? That's fine? So if studio X want to remake huge summer blockbuster Y and release it next summer, that's fine?
If I buy a book, can I type it up word for word, and go get it published, and try to make it as an author?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies

P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: polonkus on August 23, 2012, 01:48:22 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 
Really? That's fine? So if studio X want to remake huge summer blockbuster Y and release it next summer, that's fine?
If I buy a book, can I type it up word for word, and go get it published, and try to make it as an author?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_and_Prejudice_and_Zombies

P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.

That's a separate issue - but we've already established that Zombinion online would not be prevented by copyright.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 23, 2012, 02:22:02 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: GendoIkari on August 23, 2012, 02:26:02 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 23, 2012, 02:27:09 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.

I'll answer this for him.  He's already said that he isn't interested in having a debate with us on how much we can do before its officially dicking him over.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: GendoIkari on August 23, 2012, 02:28:39 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.

I'll answer this for him.  He's already said that he isn't interested in having a debate with us on how much we can do before its officially dicking him over.

I know; and I meant for that to be phrased in such a way that I was saying that I assume the answer was no, and therefore I would not be participating in such a thing.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Voltaire on August 23, 2012, 02:30:56 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.

I'll answer this for him.  He's already said that he isn't interested in having a debate with us on how much we can do before its officially dicking him over.

I know; and I meant for that to be phrased in such a way that I was saying that I assume the answer was no, and therefore I would not be participating in such a thing.
Then don't you already have your answer?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: rinkworks on August 23, 2012, 02:37:49 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.

I'll answer this for him.  He's already said that he isn't interested in having a debate with us on how much we can do before its officially dicking him over.

I know; and I meant for that to be phrased in such a way that I was saying that I assume the answer was no, and therefore I would not be participating in such a thing.
Then don't you already have your answer?

I understood the question to be rhetorical.  He was outlining the reasoning behind his conclusion -- already arrived at -- not actually asking for an answer.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: GendoIkari on August 23, 2012, 02:40:00 pm
P&P is public domain.  To my knowledge - nothing new has entered public domain via the expiration of copyright in my lifetime.
The way intellectual property works currently is really messed up. For sure, if you only owned your thing for say 20 years, that would not possibly stop any book/movie/record from getting made/distributed. Maybe once in a blue moon it would stop a Salinger from publishing, but hey he stopped publishing anyway.

Oops, my bad - this looks like a *political* discussion. Sry. Mods, plz move to RSP.

Legalities aside, here's all that matters to me. Do I have your express permission to do something like taking Isotropic code and building some sort of clone with it where I could play online Dominion all I wanted in a LAN setting? Assuming that the answer is "no," or just that you'd prefer that such a thing didn't happen because it would take away from Rio Grande or yourself in any way, then that's all I need to know to not even consider doing or participating in such a thing.

I'll answer this for him.  He's already said that he isn't interested in having a debate with us on how much we can do before its officially dicking him over.

I know; and I meant for that to be phrased in such a way that I was saying that I assume the answer was no, and therefore I would not be participating in such a thing.
Then don't you already have your answer?

I understood the question to be rhetorical.  He was outlining the reasoning behind his conclusion -- already arrived at -- not actually asking for an answer.

Basically, yeah. Unless Donald decides to respond with his permission! ;D
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: popsofctown on August 23, 2012, 06:17:07 pm
The blu-ray has IP on it that you didn't pay for yet - the little bits showing you the stitches on James Bond's coat or whatever.  You can't use the basic DVD to create a blu-ray version.

I can use paper dominion to create zombinion online.
That's the dif to me
Your logic seems inconsistent. If you want to the crispness of Bond's coat, why not say that paper dominion doesn't hold any electronic stuff? I mean, I can use the lower resolution to make the high-res thing to, it's just a lot of time and work.
How can you use the lower res thing to make the high res thing?  Do you mean by reshooting the movie? If you want to reshoot the movie, you won't get the exact same production, of course, Pierce Brosnan will never deliver the line the same exact way.  But it's fine for you to do that, you're just reusing the blocking, script,  screenplay, etc, that you already paid for. 
Really? That's fine? So if studio X want to remake huge summer blockbuster Y and release it next summer, that's fine?
If I buy a book, can I type it up word for word, and go get it published, and try to make it as an author?
Studio X violates ethics when they sell Blu Ray version of Y to someone that did not buy the original James Bond film, and does not claim to have done so.  When they sell a Blu Ray reshoot of Y to someone who already bought the original film, and thus has already conveyed money to the scriptwriters for the reused script, the scene artists for reused furniture arrangement in scene 3, etc.

Of course if you put up a Zombinion server and let anyone in who gives lip service and says they bought the original dominion, unethical use is going to occur.  But I would put the blame on the person lying, because lying is wrong, and if you just ask people whether they bought the game that's an efficient way to put the ethical ball in their court. 

There are NES emulation sites that practice this philosophy, they put up copies of old school NES games and, in text on the page, urge you to play only if you own a hardcopy of the actual game.  I go to such sites to play games I own dusty copies of for my NES, like Zelda.  I do not think it is unethical for me to play games I already own on online emulators. 
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 24, 2012, 11:36:05 am
Of course if you put up a Zombinion server and let anyone in who gives lip service and says they bought the original dominion, unethical use is going to occur.  But I would put the blame on the person lying, because lying is wrong, and if you just ask people whether they bought the game that's an efficient way to put the ethical ball in their court. 

There are NES emulation sites that practice this philosophy, they put up copies of old school NES games and, in text on the page, urge you to play only if you own a hardcopy of the actual game.  I go to such sites to play games I own dusty copies of for my NES, like Zelda.  I do not think it is unethical for me to play games I already own on online emulators.

To put it in a boardgaming context, a friend of mine just introduced me to wargameroom.com, where they have an online implementation of Manoeuvre, a fun little game that I enjoy playing with my gaming group.

And the same thing as you are referencing is used there: users are instructed to only play the game if one of the participants owns a physical copy of the game.  Apparently all of the games there have similar language.  Pretty nifty.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Tombolo on August 24, 2012, 12:13:11 pm
Here's my best idea for saving iso:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MVonyVSQoM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MVonyVSQoM)
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Orange on August 25, 2012, 02:33:35 pm
Check again ;-)

Cool. Can I get 2012 WBC Champion?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Grujah on August 25, 2012, 02:46:20 pm
I'm pretty sure you would have to do more than just change the names of the cards to avoid legal problems.

Yes, you'd need a new name and new art.
But you can't copyright something like "+2 cards +1 action", and copyright law specifically excludes game rules.
This is half the reason RGG has been so "cool" about unauthorized apps.

I always found it funny how WotC patented "tapping"/"tap" so every other game that uses  that mechanic (and many do) just rename it to things like "kneel", "exhaust" etc.

 ;D
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on August 25, 2012, 03:38:56 pm
I'm pretty sure you would have to do more than just change the names of the cards to avoid legal problems.

Yes, you'd need a new name and new art.
But you can't copyright something like "+2 cards +1 action", and copyright law specifically excludes game rules.
This is half the reason RGG has been so "cool" about unauthorized apps.

I always found it funny how WotC patented "tapping"/"tap" so every other game that uses  that mechanic (and many do) just rename it to things like "kneel", "exhaust" etc.

 ;D

Thanks to them we have the scenario of a Game of Thrones "Brothel" card that allows you to "Kneel" another player's character.  Priceless.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 25, 2012, 05:13:02 pm
I always found it funny how WotC patented "tapping"/"tap" so every other game that uses  that mechanic (and many do) just rename it to things like "kneel", "exhaust" etc.
They couldn't and didn't. What they did was include tapping in their patent for collectible card games. This made their patent cover fewer things, not more things. It's the kind of thing you do to get a patent at all - you have to demonstrate a certain uniqueness (and in fact the first collectible card game was from the early 20th century - some game with baseball cards).

People don't say "tap" because they don't want to get sued, whether or not the suit would go anywhere.
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 25, 2012, 11:27:47 pm
I always found it funny how WotC patented "tapping"/"tap" so every other game that uses  that mechanic (and many do) just rename it to things like "kneel", "exhaust" etc.
They couldn't and didn't. What they did was include tapping in their patent for collectible card games. This made their patent cover fewer things, not more things. It's the kind of thing you do to get a patent at all - you have to demonstrate a certain uniqueness (and in fact the first collectible card game was from the early 20th century - some game with baseball cards).

People don't say "tap" because they don't want to get sued, whether or not the suit would go anywhere.

If I remember correctly, didn't WotC win a big case against several game companies that used the mechanics that MtG used and as a result a lot of games vanished?
Title: Re: A Completely Unreasonable Proposal To Save Isotropic
Post by: Donald X. on August 26, 2012, 01:04:04 am
If I remember correctly, didn't WotC win a big case against several game companies that used the mechanics that MtG used and as a result a lot of games vanished?
All I see on wikipedia is "In 2003, the patent was an element of a larger legal dispute between Wizards of the Coast and Nintendo, regarding trade secrets related to Nintendo's Pokémon Trading Card Game. The legal action was settled out of court, and its terms were not disclosed."