Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion: Dark Ages Previews => Topic started by: werothegreat on August 17, 2012, 12:10:06 pm
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Think about it. If you're using Horn of Plenty to get a Victory card, you're trashing it anyway. The gaining isn't dependent on the trashing, so if you Counterfeit a Horn of Plenty, you get two Victory cards, while only trashing one Horn of Plenty. Add to that the extra card in play from Counterfeit, and the +Buy.
And sure, you could say that "well, I could have just bought another Horn of Plenty rather than a Counterfeit." But think about it some more. One Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit would be the same as two Horns of Plenty, yes. But two Horns of Plenty... now you're getting four victory cards, as opposed to just three. Three - you get six, rather than four... you can see that instead of buying eight Horns of Plenty to snag Provinces, just get four, and one Counterfeit.
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... How are you doubling all HoPs at once?
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Counterfeit a Counterfeit to counterfeit two Horns of Plenty sounds pretty good too, which is what I think he meant.
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Think about it. If you're using Horn of Plenty to get a Victory card, you're trashing it anyway. The gaining isn't dependent on the trashing, so if you Counterfeit a Horn of Plenty, you get two Victory cards, while only trashing one Horn of Plenty. Add to that the extra card in play from Counterfeit, and the +Buy.
And sure, you could say that "well, I could have just bought another Horn of Plenty rather than a Counterfeit." But think about it some more. One Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit would be the same as two Horns of Plenty, yes. But two Horns of Plenty... now you're getting four victory cards, as opposed to just three. Three - you get six, rather than four... you can see that instead of buying eight Horns of Plenty to snag Provinces, just get four, and one Counterfeit.
Plus Counterfeit + HoP makes the doubled-HoP worth more than two HoPs. More differently named cards in play.
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... How are you doubling all HoPs at once?
Not at once, spread out through the game. Only need to buy 4 + Counterfeit, vs. buying 8.
EDIT:
Counterfeit a Counterfeit to counterfeit two Horns of Plenty sounds pretty good too, which is what I think he meant.
Or what pauley_walnuts said.
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Counterfeit a Counterfeit to counterfeit two Horns of Plenty sounds pretty good too.
Or just play both Counterfeits. You achieve the same thing, without trashing one of your Counterfeits, and -$1.
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Counterfeit a Counterfeit to counterfeit two Horns of Plenty sounds pretty good too.
Or just play both Counterfeits. You achieve the same thing, without trashing one of your Counterfeits, and -$1.
D'oh. Right!
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
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To run a HoP strategy, you need a way to get 8 differently named cards in play. That's not trivial. Usually you can do it by drawing your deck, and then you play off all all your HoPs in one glorious mega-turn. You normally wouldn't be doing all 8 at once. You expect your opponent will snag some on the way -- you just want to snag more. In the meanwhile, you are using HoP to pick up more HoP and whatever missing pieces you need to hit that magical 8 cards.
Unlike additional HoPs, Counterfeit doesn't help you pick up more engine pieces. You could use it to clear some Coppers and make it easier to draw everything you need, I suppose. If you plan on using Counterfeit to duplicate HoP, you have to be careful because on the second play of HoP, the horn itself will be missing. So you need to hit 9 differently named cards the first time.
And then, Counterfeit doesn't help you double all the other horns (on that megaturn). Possibly you only wanted to grab two on this turn, and then grab a couple more the next turn... but then Provinces are clogging up your deck, making it harder to draw what you need and hit that magical 8 (or 9, to account for the lost HoP).
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To run a HoP strategy, you need a way to get 8 differently named cards in play. That's not trivial. Usually you can do it by drawing your deck, and then you play off all all your HoPs in one glorious mega-turn. You normally wouldn't be doing all 8 at once. You expect your opponent will snag some on the way -- you just want to snag more. In the meanwhile, you are using HoP to pick up more HoP and whatever missing pieces you need to hit that magical 8 cards.
Unlike additional HoPs, Counterfeit doesn't help you pick up more engine pieces. You could use it to clear some Coppers and make it easier to draw everything you need, I suppose. If you plan on using Counterfeit to duplicate HoP, you have to be careful because on the second play of HoP, the horn itself will be missing. So you need to hit 9 differently named cards the first time.
And then, Counterfeit doesn't help you double all the other horns (on that megaturn). Possibly you only wanted to grab two on this turn, and then grab a couple more the next turn... but then Provinces are clogging up your deck, making it harder to draw what you need and hit that magical 8 (or 9, to account for the lost HoP).
Yeah, I don't think its overpowered. Just a thing.
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
You play it twice BEFORE trashing it.
You trash it due to its own effect on the first play.
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
You play it twice BEFORE trashing it.
But if you gain a Victory card when playing Horn of Plenty the first time, Horn of Plenty trashes ITSELF immediately.
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If anything, more people would go for the HoP strategy if Counterfeit is on the board and you can play at least 9 different cards. With HoP on its own, you would have to get at least 4 or more for the glorious mega-turn (on top of opponent competition for the HoP). With Counterfeit, you can settle with just two HoPs and make sure you have all the other components.
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You trash it due to its own effect on the first play.
Almost didn't recognize you without your avatar.
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
You play it twice BEFORE trashing it.
But if you gain a Victory card when playing Horn of Plenty the first time, Horn of Plenty trashes ITSELF immediately.
I'm sure this is explained somewhere - but it seems very weird to me that you can "play again" a card without it being "in play" when played.
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
You play it twice BEFORE trashing it.
But if you gain a Victory card when playing Horn of Plenty the first time, Horn of Plenty trashes ITSELF immediately.
I'm sure this is explained somewhere - but it seems very weird to me that you can "play again" a card without it being "in play" when played.
It's the same idea as TR/KC a Feast or Mining Village.
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If anything, more people would go for the HoP strategy if Counterfeit is on the board and you can play at least 9 different cards. With HoP on its own, you would have to get at least 4 or more for the glorious mega-turn (on top of opponent competition for the HoP). With Counterfeit, you can settle with just two HoPs and make sure you have all the other components.
I think it would be slower because of how you are picking up components though. HoP is a big part of getting all the pieces, including more of itself! That Counterfeit won't help you pick up components.
I would say, if both are on the board, I might pick one up early if I feel the need to trash some Copper. But otherwise, I want to focus on getting as many HoP as possible. If I lose the HoP split I might try to grab some more Counterfeits to compensate, and hope I manage to trigger the megaturn first. But the focus is still on HoP. The Counterfeit will just be another component, and maybe light Copper trashing.
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My idea would be to pick up Counterfeit first to start the trashing of coppers and whatnot. Pick up HoP next. Then Counterfeit the HoP to gain more non-victory card components since you won;'t be trashing that HoP.
Let's remember that you only trash the HoP when you gain a Victory card. So in essence, you can speed up the process with one HoP.
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Ah crap. Nevermind. HoP would be trashed when Counterfeited. I need to get used to these cards.
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Be careful, though. Say you have Caravan, Spy, Village, Copper, Silver, Gold in play and you play Counterfeit. You choose to play Horn of Plenty with Counterfeit. You gain a Province because you have 8 differently-named cards in play. Then you trash Horn of Plenty. When you play Horn of Plenty the second time (via Counterfeit), you can only gain a card costing up to $7.
You play it twice BEFORE trashing it.
But if you gain a Victory card when playing Horn of Plenty the first time, Horn of Plenty trashes ITSELF immediately.
I'm sure this is explained somewhere - but it seems very weird to me that you can "play again" a card without it being "in play" when played.
It's the same idea as TR/KC a Feast or Mining Village.
I suppose. It seems like it would be much cleaner if "play again" just took the card back from the trash and into the play area again.
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I don't think you can Counterfeit a HoP for Victory cards because then it gets trashed. You can't Throne Room a Feast twice because it's trashed on the first use. You can Counterfeit an HoP for a non-Victory card and then a Victory card, possibly.
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Actually, you can do both (feast and hop), since the trashing is not a condition, but just another effect
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I don't think you can Counterfeit a HoP for Victory cards because then it gets trashed. You can't Throne Room a Feast twice because it's trashed on the first use. You can Counterfeit an HoP for a non-Victory card and then a Victory card, possibly.
You can't TR a feast twice, but if you TR it once, you get to gain two cards costing up to $5.
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You can now if you get it back from trash with graverobber/rogue
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I played this with Menagerie and Forager (as an additional trasher), Margrave and Hunting Party as draw cards and Wandering Minstrel as the village.
I got the megaturn on turn 13. My opponent had already bought a Province, but i got 7 Provinces, 2 Duchies and an Estate.
http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20150106/log.531fd3ffe4b0024599474db6.1420600111461.txt (http://logs.prod.dominion.makingfun.com//20150106/log.531fd3ffe4b0024599474db6.1420600111461.txt)
I think Menagerie really benefits from having the Counterfeit be a different coin than the HoP. My one Margrave was able to get all 4 HoPs and all 4 Counterfeits into one hand. Had they been 8 HoPs instead, I think the Menageries would have stalled.