Dominion Strategy Forum
Archive => Archive => Dominion World Masters => Topic started by: Lekkit on August 16, 2012, 11:06:24 am
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Will there be any coverage from DMW? Also, when is it? When can we expect to know how people performed and how many that showed up?
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I have a few friends at gencon. Maybe I should try to con them into watching it.
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Go Fabian & dondon!
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@rrenaud: Not maybe. You definately should.
@theory: Yeah. I was kinda rooting for people I know of. And since I know Fabian more than I know of him, I'm kinda hoping he ends up winning the whole thing. Go Sweden!
Still. Some results and kingdoms and stuff would be nice.
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I support Fabian because he flew all the way out there :)
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We're having some meeting dinner on Friday and the entire tournament is on Saturday. I've received no information about kingdoms or anything just yet. I think that Fabian and I, among other avid f.ds'ers, will probably be keeping good track of what goes on, though.
As of right now I haven't even been to the RGG room because it's 2:30 pm here and I just woke up, Yeesh.
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Are there any other f.ds'ers other than you and Fabian?
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No clue; I've not been told yet who else is participating.
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Results?
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http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/843807/wm-dominion (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/843807/wm-dominion)
We want to announce the results and congratulate the winner of the 2012 Dominion Tournament, which concluded a short time ago. Kazuhiko Mitsuya of Japan is the winner of this year's tournament. We also want to thank all who participated. All players were respectful and, I hope enjoyed themselves.
Jay
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Congrats! Looks like an MTG player. (https://www.google.com/search?q=Kazuhiko+Mitsuya)
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Better known as manzi ;)
As far as I know (hopefully I am not wrong):
1st: manzi (Japan) - 26 pts
2nd: Fabian (Sweden) - 21 pts
3rd: Alex (Austria) - 20 pts
4th: dondon151 (US) - 19 pts
5th: Axiom (Norway)
6th: Pepe (Spain)
7th: Mikko (Finland)
I got 2 1st places, 1 2nd place, 2 3rd places, and 1 tie-for-1st. Those 3rd place finishes were a combination of poor luck plus a couple of buying mistakes that cost me a chance at the top :( manzi played excellently except for his first match (where he got a 3rd place); Fabian played very well in general as well but couldn't get to the top because of unfortunate seating position in his final game (3rd player on a Cutpurse kingdom with really nothing else going on).
Jay's going to e-mail us the sets and I may comment on my games after my memory is jogged a bit... I've been playing Dominion all night with Axiom's Norwegian buddies and Alex (all incredibly awesome guys/gal, btw) and am rather fatigued.
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Were there only 7 participants or do you not remember the rest? Those japanese guys are good. Two years in a row. Guess it's back to the Dominion Dojo to train! Anyways, congratulations to manzi! And Fabian too. And pretty much all the national champions who made it there!
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Were there only 7 participants or do you not remember the rest? Those japanese guys are good. Two years in a row. Guess it's back to the Dominion Dojo to train! Anyways, congratulations to manzi! And Fabian too. And pretty much all the national champions who made it there!
It was just 7 of us. There was supposed to be an 8th from Brazil, but he couldn't make it, so one of Jay's RGG demo players subbed in for him. He was pretty good, too; he would have tied me for 4th if his score had counted at all.
Unfortunately many of the potential participants from other countries were not going to receive subsidized trips, so they declined to come. Additionally, Germany wouldn't send a representative because supposedly, their national championship takes place at Essen, which is after Gen Con, and they didn't want to send last year's winner for whatever reason...
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I'll bet that was refreshing for manzi after losing to olneyce in the DS tournament. Wish I could have been at Gencon to see this. (And, uh, get Dark Ages early)
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Did you guys get any special like a copy of DA or anything? And, what about Fabian. He came in second and paid for his transportation. I wonder if Jay was nice and offered him some sort of reward, even if it weren't cash.
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Did you guys get any special like a copy of DA or anything?
Nope. :( No consolation expansions for us. Would have really liked it, though. I think they're all sold out right now at the venue, too...
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Better known as manzi ;)
As far as I know (hopefully I am not wrong):
1st: manzi (Japan) - 26 pts
2nd: Fabian (Sweden) - 21 pts
3rd: Alex (Austria) - 20 pts
4th: dondon151 (US) - 19 pts
5th: Axiom (Norway)
6th: Pepe (Spain)
7th: Mikko (Finland)
I got 2 1st places, 1 2nd place, 2 3rd places, and 1 tie-for-1st. Those 3rd place finishes were a combination of poor luck plus a couple of buying mistakes that cost me a chance at the top :( manzi played excellently except for his first match (where he got a 3rd place); Fabian played very well in general as well but couldn't get to the top because of unfortunate seating position in his final game (3rd player on a Cutpurse kingdom with really nothing else going on).
Jay's going to e-mail us the sets and I may comment on my games after my memory is jogged a bit... I've been playing Dominion all night with Axiom's Norwegian buddies and Alex (all incredibly awesome guys/gal, btw) and am rather fatigued.
So, i'm the Austrian guys finishing 3rd. Since we didn't receive the list of Kingdoms used, i will comment on my games when we have them. Manzi is the true champion, no doubt about that.
Fabian is a worthy 2nd, although i would not second his bad luck on seating. Everybody had 2 games in 3rd position. I had a SeaHag game when i was 3rd, and there was nothing you could do either (and in the end i was one point short of 2nd plac). In my last game 1 had a shot at the last Province but ended up with 7 coins. So with a little bit of better luck i could have made 2nd Place.
So everybody in the Tournament has his Story of "bad luck", even manzi finished one game in 3rd Place probably also a game where he couldnt do anything about it. In the end the strongest player won, and that is how it should be.
The rest of the GenCon i spent playing Dark Ages one game after the other with dondon and the Norwegian guys (5 of them). They were all quite strong players, so i enjoyed that a lot. You dont get to play strong players IRL so often.
Well we didn't receive any complementary sets officially, but Jay from RGG provided us with a couple of expansion sets and base cards with new art to play around. So in the end everybody who stayed there a little bit longer ende up receiving some sort of Price.
The points as far as i remenber were
Axiom 18
Pepe 11
Mikka 10
Pepe was a little bit handicapped, because in Spain the tournaments are only with the base set, and he had very little expirience with all the other cards. So he was easy prey. Mikka on the other hand was a former Magic PRO, and plays now poker. Dominion is more of a side hobby for him, and as he said it was more an accident that he won his nationals. He is not a bad player at all, but he hasnt played a tremendous lot of games, so he lacks expirence.
Besides that there were some really good games going on. I remember especially one where all the Victory points were bought out before the last Province. That was quite intense. When the sets are out, i would love to here comments from the other players about the games.
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I don't really agree with you on the luck part. If everyone plays from 3rd seat 2 times there could still be a lot of luck. Say I get to be 3rd player on a BM+Smithy Board, it's not half as bad as being 3rd on a Witch/Sea Hag/Cutpurse board. I know manzi is a great player, and I'm pretty sure he deserved to win, though. ;)
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I don't really agree with you on the luck part. If everyone plays from 3rd seat 2 times there could still be a lot of luck. Say I get to be 3rd player on a BM+Smithy Board, it's not half as bad as being 3rd on a Witch/Sea Hag/Cutpurse board. I know manzi is a great player, and I'm pretty sure he deserved to win, though. ;)
What i wanted to say is, that all the guys on the top were hit quite equally with their 3rd place kingdoms. I got hit with Sea hag, Fabian got hit with Cutpurse. I can't remember what manzi had to face since his 3rd place was in the very first game (or he just wanted to give us a head start). The bad thing that happened to Fabian was that it was the last game of the tournament, when he received the cutpurse beating (by me btw.). So i can understand his frustration on that point. On the other hand he already had all the good starting positions, and should have made them count.
In retrospect it was a fair tournament. The only edge you could get was playing the guys fom Finland ans Spain twice, because that were the easy points to be had
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This is the RGG guy that filled in for Brazil. I had a great time playing in the tourney and was mostly happy to not constantly lose and make a fool of myself. I remember being very impressed with not only the play of all involved but also the candor and feel of those playing. The one game that manzi lost was the first game with myself and dondon51. I don't remember very clearly (the whole day is a bit of a blur since I was also sleep deprived) but the board was something along the lines of:
Steward
Minion
Worker's village
Militia
Conspirator
Council Room
Bureaucrat
(not sure what else was there)
I saw the engine potential with worker's village/militia/conspirator/council room but figured that a bureaucrat could both slow down the engine and race with BM, which is essentially what I did. I opened silver/bureaucrat and both manzi and dondon51 opened militia/steward. I eventually supplemented with Council Rooms (since both were drawing most of their deck anyways) and stuck with BM, went green fairly early, and was able to win the race. I remember that game because it was particularly intense. I don't remember the final scores (perhaps one of the players wrote them down) but I do remember that the engines were starting to majorly kick in and I was definitely getting nervous, thankfully I had amassed enough earlier provinces to come out on top.
Another game I was in had the following:
scheme
festival
smithy
bordervillage
moneylender
cache
stables
(i don't remember what else)
I opened scheme/moneylender and the two others opened silver/moneylender. I was able to very quickly get an engine going that just got better over time, leveraging schemes to keep it going. By the end I had scheme/bordervillage/smithy/festival/moneylender/stable and kept buying cache's to get coppers back *in* my deck to keep things going with moneylender/stable (i think when the game ended I had 3 cache's and only 4 coppers in my deck, or something along those lines). That was a very enjoyeable game.
I also remember having two boards where there were hunting party + tournament and no cards that handed out curses. In each game, the person who got followers won :-/. Once it was me and the other time it wasn't. One of those games was the one where all the duchies and all the estates were purchased before the final province. At the end of the day I went 3wins - 1 tie for second - 2 third place finishes for a total of 19 points, tied with US. GO BRAZIL! ;-)
EDIT: One last thing. Dark Ages was not used because it was determined that due to possible language issues, it would not be fair to include a new set that not everyone had time to understand and would only have cards/rules in english available on hand.
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So everybody in the Tournament has his Story of "bad luck", even manzi finished one game in 3rd Place probably also a game where he couldnt do anything about it. In the end the strongest player won, and that is how it should be.
No, manzi legitimately played rather poorly that game. Maybe luck had a little to do with it, but he opened Steward/Steward, trashed down to a point where he didn't really have buying power, didn't get Council Room (which, unfortunately, is necessary for an engine because that's the only +buy in the kingdom), and started buying Provinces when his deck was not prepared to consistently hit $8.
I opened Militia/Steward and my Steward fell to turn 5. I'm pretty sure that had that not happened, I would have accelerated much faster and pulled out a win. Additionally, I probably made a mistake where I bought Minion on my first $5 instead of Council Room.
(Final score was 42-39-25. I should have bought the last 2 Duchies on my last turn instead of ending the game: if neither you nor manzi could buy a Province, I would have had a chance at winning.)
Here's hoping that Jay remembers to e-mail us the kingdoms; I distinctly remember what went on in all of my games, but I don't want to give a full report without knowing all of the cards first.
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I remember the kingdom where Axiom, Manzi and a third I don't remember played, because it was the exact same kingdom i played at Essen last year:
DomAlc: Chancellor, Festival, Moat, Witch, Woodcutter / Apprentice, Golem, Philosopher's Stone, University, Vineyard (from http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/714428/dominion-wm-tournament (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/714428/dominion-wm-tournament) )
Not really sure why this was reused, if Donald X reads this, maybe he'll comment?
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That kingdom haunts me to this very day. D: I played it soo badly. I was really set on opening Chancellor/Potion, but got a 5/2 split and fell behind on the Potion because I didn't really think about buying it for my 5. Haven't made that mistake again since then. :)
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That kingdom haunts me to this very day. D: I played it soo badly. I was really set on opening Chancellor/Potion, but got a 5/2 split and fell behind on the Potion because I didn't really think about buying it for my 5. Haven't made that mistake again since then. :)
I would guess it wasnt reused on purpose. Jay from RGG had a list of sets
And used them at will. I don't think we played the sets Donald created
but other ones. Maybe Donald used some cards from Dark Ages
and we agreed at the welcome dinner not to use them, so maybe
that's why old kingdoms were replayed
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I'm back from my trip. The tournament was a huge disaster for me and I'm very disappointed with it. Not so much in the last game which someone commented on, but some of the other ones. Going into the last game manzi had 21 points to my 20 (5/3/1 scoring), so I knew I had to get more points than him. I knew we'd both be playing the last round, so I hoped we'd end up on the same table which would mean I just needed to beat him in that game to win the tournament. Instead he got paired with the two weakest players in the tournament, and I knew I had to play for a win; him finishing third against that opposition seemed impossible, and second place was a huge stretch too. I could have ended our game in second place a few turns before we were done, but felt like I had to go for the miracle and got Duchy+Estate instead of buying the last Province. Axiom bought the last Province after a couple turns of Duchy buying, and I wasn't particularly close to winning and got third. In the end, manzi predictably won his game, so even winning the last game wouldn't have helped. I'm kinda happy with not winning the last one heh, as the way(s) I lost points earlier in the tournament might have left me on permanent life tilt for months.
Overall, the level of play was pretty much in line with what I expected; lots of level 20-30 strength players (no Coppersmith/Great Hall openings like what I heard about from last year's Worlds), and one very strong player (predictably the japanese guy). manzi was very nice and polite, but we couldn't talk much due to the language barrier. He was certainly a well deserving champion, though I must say I felt very disappointed to not win after he got 3rd place in the very first round.
It was nice meeting you guys.
Edit: After reading the other posts more carefully, I should clarify that dondon and loppo are wrong to say I lost because of bad luck in the last game; I would have finished second in the tournament even if I had won the last game, as it turned out, as manzi also won his last game.
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So there were no finals? That's a pity. Anyway, dude, you finished second in the world. That's not really a small feat. I'll buy you a kebab for it. ;) Also will you be attending the IRL league on tuesday?
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Hey I'll take a kebab! I put on a lot of weight during my week in the US, but I think I can squeeze a kebab in there, I did miss it when I was gone :)
No finals, no. I agree it would have been greatly preferred, but from what I could tell Jay is strongly opposed to a) 2-player Dominion in tournaments or b) finals or c) both. Playing a best of 5 or whatever against manzi for the world title would have been pretty cool, I'll admit.
I'm guessing I'll be there tuesday. My interest in Dominion is at an all-time low with Dark Ages approaching and no way to play, but it's not like I have anything better to do on tuesday evenings.
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Edit: After reading the other posts more carefully, I should clarify that dondon and loppo are wrong to say I lost because of bad luck in the last game; I would have finished second in the tournament even if I had won the last game, as it turned out, as manzi also won his last game.
No, well, that's not what I meant. Bad choice of words on my part. You needed 2 things to happen to oust manzi from 1st; one of them was some decent luck to overcome your seating position in your last match, and the other was manzi to lose to either of the weakest players in the tournament. And we can say that the loss was due to one or the other, but - not to be pedantic here - I just want to clarify that I knew what was going on and that it was a bad choice of words on my part.
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Too bad Fabian. At least you lost to a worthy opponent, right?
Hope you enjoyed your time in the US at least.
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That's the same Manzi who came second in the Dominion Strategy Tournament right?
Yeah I guess he's alright ;)
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It's too bad there is a language barrier between him (and presumably his friends) and us :(. We need better technology!
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I received the e-mail from Jay. I'll copy&paste ist andi won't coomeent much right now, since i have a huge jetlag since i just returned from indy a couple of hours ago, and try to keep me awake for 3 more hours to shift back to CET.
without further ado:
Hello,
Thanks again for participating the the tournament. I hope you have all arrived home safely.
I am happy to have met you all and enjoyed your spirit of fair play, competition, and friendship.
Here are the sets we used for the event. Thanks, again!
INTRIGUE / DOMINION
- Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia
- Masquerade, Shanty Town, Coppersmith, Ironworks, Torturer, Tribute, Upgrade, Nobles, Throne Room, Militia
SEASIDE / DOMINION
- Wharf, Outpost, Bazaar, Smugglers, Pearl Diver, Gardens, Bureaucrat, Throne Room, Moneylender, Remodel
- Salvager, Warehouse, Cutpurse, Native Village, Treasury, Moneylender, Mine, Remodel, Workshop, Laboratory
- Ghost Ship, Merchant Ship, Native Village, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Salvager, Sea Hag, Smugglers, Treasury, Warehouse
ALCHEMY / DOMINION
- Apprentice, Vineyard, University, Philosopher's Stone, Golem, Chancellor, Festival, Moat, Witch, Woodcutter
- Herbalist, Transmute, Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Cellar, Chancellor, Festival, Militia, Smithy
PROSPERITY / DOMINION
- City, Trade Route, Bishop, Vault, Forge, Council Room, Cellar, Library, Throne Room, Chancellor
- Bishop, Goons, Monument, Peddler, Grand Market, Gardens, Witch, Chapel, Village, Remodel
- Bank, Expand, Forge, King's Court, Vault, Bridge, Coppersmith, Swindler, Tribute, Wishing Well
CORNUCOPIA / DOMINION
- Harvest, Horn of Plenty, Hunting Party, Menagerie, Tournament, Cellar, Festival, Militia, Moneylender, Smithy
- Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Jester, Young Witch [*Cellar], Feast, Laboratory, Market, Remodel, Workshop
- Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Hunting Party, Remake, Tournament, Conspirator, Duke, Great Hall, Harem, Pawn
HINTERLANDS / DOMINION
- Scheme, Stables, Border Village, Cache, Festival, Mine, Smithy, Moneylender, Remodel, Cellar
- Crossroads, Farmland, Fool’s Gold, Oracle, Spice Marchant, Adventurer, Chancellor, Festival, Laboratory, Remodel
- Conspirator, Duke, Harem, Masquerade, Upgrade, Duchess, Haggler, Inn, Noble Brigand, Scheme
Jay Tummelson
Rio Grande Games
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Game 1: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia
Turn order is Adam (the Brazil sit-in), dondon, manzi
Adam opens something like Bureaucrat/Silver, going for a BM strategy. I open Steward/Militia; manzi opens Steward/Steward. Adam gets at least a Courtyard and a Council Room at some point, manzi overtrashes and starts buying Provinces when his deck isn't ready to consistently hit $8, and I build an engine to hit $16 and double-Province. Unfortunately my Steward falls to turn 5, and deck acceleration is slow as a result. Eventually my engine gets firing and I start getting Province/Duchy or Duchy/Duchy to catch up, playing my Militia every turn, but I didn't know exactly how many points Adam had going into my last turn. I decide to gamble and double-Province when I get the chance, but end up losing this one, 42 (Adam) - 39 (dondon) - 25 (manzi).
Game 2: Herbalist, Transmute, Apothecary, Alchemist, Golem, Cellar, Chancellor, Festival, Militia, Smithy
Turn order is loppo, Fabian, dondon
loppo opens 5/2 and gets... well, I don't quite remember what he gets. Fabian gets Potion/Silver on 4/3. I get Potion/Herbalist on 4/3, hoping to get 2 Apothecaries before the reshuffle to increase my chances at getting Golem. The dominant strategy here is obviously Golems hitting Festivals and Smithies, with a Militia thrown in and a couple of Alchemists for consistency. I had some rotten luck all game but made 3 mistakes: I should have opened Potion/Silver (Herbalist didn't collide with Potion for me and kept getting hit by my Golems), I bought Cellar on an early $2 turn when I didn't have an engine running and both Fabian and loppo had Militias, and I played Golem when there was only a Smithy left in my deck, which triggered a reshuffle of a bunch of crap. I lose, 55 (Fabian) - 26 (loppo) - 16 (dondon).
Game 3: Bishop, Goons, Monument, Peddler, Grand Market, Gardens, Witch, Chapel, Village, Remodel Council Room, Cellar, Library, Throne Room, Chancellor
Turn order is dondon, Pepe, Mikko
(I think Jay got these sets mixed up; this is definitely what I played with this round)
Goons game. Pepe and Mikko didn't have much experience with Goons; I closed out on a triple-Goons turn (should have been quad-Goons but I forgot I had a 4th one in my hand) with 14 buys, emptying out Throne Room, Goons, and Peddlers. I win, 68 (dondon) - 23 (Mikko) - 16 (Pepe).
Game 4: Bank, Expand, Forge, King's Court, Vault, Bridge, Coppersmith, Swindler, Tribute, Wishing Well
Turn order is Pepe, Fabian, dondon
I kind of ignored Pepe here, since Fabian was the strong player. Fabian opens Vault/nothing on 5/2 while I have to settle for Swindler/Swindler on 4/3. I honestly thought that the game was lost here as a matter of opening luck. I try to go for something more swingy here, getting Vault on $5, a Forge on $7, then eventually 2 Bridges and something like 4 King's Courts. I draw a hand of KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge, which lets me end the game with 3 Provinces and 4 Duchies, tying Fabian. Fabian looked really pissed that he didn't outright win, but I had something like, 4 KCs and 4 Vaults in my deck, and drawing KC-KC-Vault would have very likely won the game for me outright. I'm completely certain that I picked the correct strategy for this kingdom on a 4/3 vs. 5/2 in a weaker position. Fabian and I tie, 31 (Fabian) - 31 (dondon) - 24 (Pepe).
Game 5: Fairgrounds, Farming Village, Horse Traders, Jester, Young Witch [*Cellar], Feast, Laboratory, Market, Remodel, Workshop
Turn order is Axiom, dondon, manzi
manzi opens 5/2 and gets Jester/Cellar. Axiom and I open 4/3; he opens YW/Cellar and I open HT/Cellar, hoping to get an early $5 for my own Jester. Well, HT falls to turn 5, manzi's Jester gets him lots of good stuff, including a Young Witch, a Gold, and many Cellars, and I just never have a Cellar in hand to defend against YW plays. I end up eating 12 of the Curses, and though I do hit 15 unique cards for 6 VP Fairgrounds, I only got 2 Fairgrounds. Sigh. 28 (manzi) - 18 (Axiom) - 13 (dondon).
Game 6: Crossroads, Farmland, Fool’s Gold, Oracle, Spice Marchant, Adventurer, Chancellor, Festival, Laboratory, Remodel
Turn order is dondon, Mikko, loppo
Nothing going on in this kingdom. First position lets me "win" the FG split, we each get an Adventurer to connect our FGs, and that's basically it... 32 (dondon) - 25 (Mikko) - 24 (loppo).
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KC/KC/Vault lets you see 11 card deep in your ~35 card deck with exactly 2 Bridge in it. I'll have to pretty strongly disagree that it would "likely win you the game", especially so considering at that point you'd have needed to Swindle Duchy into something or Copper into Curse to win, too, anyway. Another turn and a comeback would have been practically impossible, 7 buys was the maximum your deck could get.
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KC/KC/Vault lets you see 11 card deep in your ~35 card deck with exactly 2 Bridge in it. I'll have to pretty strongly disagree that it would "likely win you the game", especially so considering at that point you'd have needed to Swindle Duchy into something or Copper into Curse to win, too, anyway. Another turn and a comeback would have been practically impossible, 7 buys was the maximum your deck could get.
No way did I have a 35 card deck. Without having made any extra purchases beforehand (since I did not play Bridge before that point, choosing to play Vault every time instead), I could not have possibly had more than 30 cards, because we did not even play 20 turns until that point. If I'm not mistaken, you had 4 Provinces and 2 Duchies at that point (or 5 Provinces and 0 Duchies), which is maybe ~turn 16 for a Vault/nothing opening. That means I had ~26 cards in my deck maximum. I had also played Forge twice, forfeiting 2 of my buys and cutting down some junk, which means that I had a conservative estimate of ~24 cards.
If I had played KC-KC-Vault, all I needed to do was to draw another Vault, and I would end up drawing basically my entire deck. I had 3 or 4 KCs and 3 or 4 Vaults, which means that all I had to do was KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Forge to gain 3 Duchies from Forge and buy 3x Duchy, 4x Province for a win.
I mean, I can understand being miffed because someone just spontaneously draws and connects KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge, but 1) my chances were not that bad at getting a KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge (I needed either that or KC-KC-Vault to find the other KC's and Bridges) and 2) you had the 5/2 opening and I had no chance at winning that match unless I turned your Vault into a Duchy. I didn't, so here we are.
EDIT: replacing Forge with Swindler would let me change all of your <$6 cards into Curses, so that works as well, unless I hit Provinces.
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And once again we are reminded that luck does play a part in this game.
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :)
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :)
Yup. But I can definitely agree with you that I was a lot more likely to not tie/win than to tie/win.
EDIT: btw, Fabian, this kingdom that you played against manzi and Mikko:
Conspirator, Duke, Harem, Masquerade, Upgrade, Duchess, Haggler, Inn, Noble Brigand, Scheme
Why didn't you guys go Duke? I see a nice Conspirator engine potential, but without +buys, Duke is really strong here...
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I heard you and/or other people saying that, but I guess I don't see it. Where's the Duke support? Why is it strong here? It's going to be very hard to do anything enginey with Duke, as Duke requires more green cards in the mid/lategame than a Province engine would (and also needs to start greening earlier, since for the first ~15 turns of greening, a Province deck will outscore a Duke deck here), and anything BMesque, I don't really see working out.
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Get Haggler on your first $5 (maybe second); gain Silver with Haggler on Duchy and Duke buys; gain Duchess on Duchy buys.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191514-606efedc.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191734-608898ae.html
6 Duchies + 3 Dukes beats 2 opponents getting a 6/6 Province split (because the opponents will have used Upgrades to trash starting Estates). I get my 9th Duchy/Duke on turns 15 and 16 in the above logs. I highly doubt that a Scheme-Conspirator engine will be able to muster 6 Provinces in 15/16 turns with no +buy. (EDIT: it can, but it still loses by virtue of having trashed 3 Estates, and it will probably lose in a 3-player game if the 3rd player is weak and can't split Provinces.)
In the first log, I miss $5 3 times after turn 6; in the second log, I miss $5 2 times after turn 6.
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I'm not sure solitaire game logs based on a BMesque approach are very useful for drawing conclusions of what would happen against two engine opponents who have access to Noble Brigand.
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I'm not sure solitaire game logs based on a BMesque approach are very useful for drawing conclusions of what would happen against two engine opponents who have access to Noble Brigand.
Who would also be able to upgrade silvers to conspirators, just incase you think that silvers might hurt them.
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Excellent kingdoms from Donald X. again. I think these are specifically good 3/4 player kingdoms and are not as balanced for two player games. They might even include a few traps for someone who plays exclusively two player, even starting in the first kingdom: Courtyard, Minion, Steward, Mining Village, Conspirator, Bureaucrat, Chancellor, Council Room, Mine, Militia.
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Get Haggler on your first $5 (maybe second); gain Silver with Haggler on Duchy and Duke buys; gain Duchess on Duchy buys.
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191514-606efedc.html
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201208/22/game-20120822-191734-608898ae.html
6 Duchies + 3 Dukes beats 2 opponents getting a 6/6 Province split (because the opponents will have used Upgrades to trash starting Estates). I get my 9th Duchy/Duke on turns 15 and 16 in the above logs. I highly doubt that a Scheme-Conspirator engine will be able to muster 6 Provinces in 15/16 turns with no +buy. (EDIT: it can, but it still loses by virtue of having trashed 3 Estates, and it will probably lose in a 3-player game if the 3rd player is weak and can't split Provinces.)
In the first log, I miss $5 3 times after turn 6; in the second log, I miss $5 2 times after turn 6.
Agree with Dondon here. Duchess by itself is often enough to facilitate a duke strategy. Throw in haggler and potentially an open with masc to clean out some estates and I think it becomes dominant.
Wild card is I'm a lot less sure how well it works with 3players.
If 2 go duke, then you split the duchies which is bad. And the province player can spend a little more time building for the provinces (and is in a lot better shape to get more provinces when the Ds are empty.
If you go duke by yourself, the other two might be able to end the province pile before youve got your dukes where you need them to be.
A lot more complicated than 2p, that's for sure.
Ed