Dominion Strategy Forum

Archive => Archive => Dominion: Dark Ages Previews => Topic started by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 01:53:42 pm

Title: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 01:53:42 pm
2) The rest of us wondering if we're supposed to be talking about the leaked cards
Well Reddit is more public than this subforum. They are talking about them on SomethingAwful too. Not on the German forums or BGG though.

So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: theory on August 15, 2012, 01:57:25 pm
I seem to remember somewhere Doug being somewhat annoyed about Band of Misfits because it was easily the most complicated card for Isotropic coding purposes?  Or am I misremembering?

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 01:58:43 pm
Band of misfits probably doesn't work great with empty piles. Also are ruins technically kingdom cards? Could be something wierd with picking a ruin that you don't know if its in the kingdom. The wording on reddit was terrible but assuming you can pick any kingdom card costing less it might function wierdly with picking a treasure if you still have actions left.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:00:43 pm
I seem to remember somewhere Doug being somewhat annoyed about Band of Misfits because it was easily the most complicated card for Isotropic coding purposes?  Or am I misremembering?
I think it was a combination of, this card is a mess and this expansion will probably never go public anyway.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:02:03 pm
Band of misfits probably doesn't work great with empty piles. Also are ruins technically kingdom cards? Could be something wierd with picking a ruin that you don't know if its in the kingdom. The wording on reddit was terrible but assuming you can pick any kingdom card costing less it might function wierdly with picking a treasure if you still have actions left.
You can only play actions with it; playing the top Ruins is legit and not tricky; you have to pick a physical card, so once a pile is empty you can't pick it anymore.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 15, 2012, 02:03:00 pm
Band of misfits probably doesn't work great with empty piles. Also are ruins technically kingdom cards? Could be something wierd with picking a ruin that you don't know if its in the kingdom. The wording on reddit was terrible but assuming you can pick any kingdom card costing less it might function wierdly with picking a treasure if you still have actions left.
You can only play actions with it; playing the top Ruins is legit and not tricky; you have to pick a physical card, so once a pile is empty you can't pick it anymore.

I assume that you don't actually gain the card? Or do you?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:06:30 pm
Band of misfits probably doesn't work great with empty piles. Also are ruins technically kingdom cards? Could be something wierd with picking a ruin that you don't know if its in the kingdom. The wording on reddit was terrible but assuming you can pick any kingdom card costing less it might function wierdly with picking a treasure if you still have actions left.
You can only play actions with it; playing the top Ruins is legit and not tricky; you have to pick a physical card, so once a pile is empty you can't pick it anymore.

I assume that you don't actually gain the card? Or do you?

Not from playtesting on Goko. It becomes the card until end of turn, and then is Band of Misfits again. I will say this, when I playtested it, Band of Misfits was a real, real power card, but there were also several viable $4 and under options out. But, on some boards, this card will be amazing!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:08:20 pm
Band of misfits probably doesn't work great with empty piles. Also are ruins technically kingdom cards? Could be something wierd with picking a ruin that you don't know if its in the kingdom. The wording on reddit was terrible but assuming you can pick any kingdom card costing less it might function wierdly with picking a treasure if you still have actions left.
You can only play actions with it; playing the top Ruins is legit and not tricky; you have to pick a physical card, so once a pile is empty you can't pick it anymore.

You can only play the top ruins?

Or this one, I Kings Court Band of Misfits, Choosing Fortress, I then choose mining village and choose to trash band of misfits, Do I get BoM in my hand or no?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 02:10:05 pm
Yeah, Band of Misfits is the card that I wasn't even going to attempt to understand until reading the FAQ. Since Donald brought it up, I feel safe posting the actual wording on the card, which should facilitate discussion.

"Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play."
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jsh357 on August 15, 2012, 02:12:09 pm

Ninja'd by DXV
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:12:58 pm
You can only play the top ruins?

Or this one, I Kings Court Band of Misfits, Choosing Fortress, I then choose mining village and choose to trash band of misfits, Do I get BoM in my hand or no?
You can only play the top Ruins.

When you King's Court BoM and pick Fortress, it locks in as Fortress; the other two plays are also Fortress. It stays Fortress until it leaves play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 02:14:00 pm
Well, there's also the question of, if you do play Band of Misfits via Throne Room, do you get to choose a different card the second time? After all, Band of Misfits is still in play when you play it again, so it's still the card you declared it to be.

EDIT: Whoops, Donald beat me to it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:14:15 pm
I assume that you don't actually gain the card? Or do you?
You don't gain the card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 02:16:00 pm
It's really the various when-you-trash-this and when-you-(would-)discard-this-from-play interactions that are going to make Band of Misfits confusing. I have no idea how those are going to work.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:17:39 pm
I think Band of Misfits might end up becoming my all-time favorite Dominion card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Hockey Mask on August 15, 2012, 02:19:23 pm
So this is basically a wild card?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:20:54 pm
So this is basically a wild card?

No. You choose what action it becomes. It can be JoaT, Sea Hag, Village, whatever is out in the supply and cost less than $5.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:21:55 pm
It's really the various when-you-trash-this and when-you-(would-)discard-this-from-play interactions that are going to make Band of Misfits confusing. I have no idea how those are going to work.

I thought of the trash this thing but most of them are "Trash this" as opposed to "Trash embargo" which I think makes BoM clear.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 02:23:20 pm
I think Band of Misfits might end up becoming my all-time favorite Dominion card.

I'm most excited about the two cards that are described but not named in the reddit post, actually. (One of them is mislabeled Fortress in the post and the other on is the one with all the options.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:24:19 pm
It's really the various when-you-trash-this and when-you-(would-)discard-this-from-play interactions that are going to make Band of Misfits confusing. I have no idea how those are going to work.

Well, most, if not all, TFB cards are when they are trashed from your hand. Band of Misfits becomes a different action when you play it, so if you trash it from hand, it will still be a Band of Misfits, so you wont get any TFB.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:25:00 pm
I think Band of Misfits might end up becoming my all-time favorite Dominion card.

I'm most excited about the two cards that are described but not named in the reddit post, actually. (One of them is mislabeled Fortress in the post and the other on is the one with all the options.)

Personal fave is procession and is the card I thought was talked about earlier (I got to play it in a kingdom with fortress :)))
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 02:25:05 pm
I seem to remember somewhere Doug being somewhat annoyed about Band of Misfits because it was easily the most complicated card for Isotropic coding purposes?  Or am I misremembering?
As a programmer (and human being) I can understand this, because maaaaan.

Could you play it as a card from an empty pile?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:25:12 pm
I think Band of Misfits might end up becoming my all-time favorite Dominion card.

I'm most excited about the two cards that are described but not named in the reddit post, actually. (One of them is mislabeled Fortress in the post and the other on is the one with all the options.)

All the Options one is a great opener for 5/2. It's like a super Chapel.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:26:06 pm
I seem to remember somewhere Doug being somewhat annoyed about Band of Misfits because it was easily the most complicated card for Isotropic coding purposes?  Or am I misremembering?
As a programmer (and human being) I can understand this, because maaaaan.

Could you play it as a card from an empty pile?

Don't think so it's worded supply instead of kingdom.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 02:30:49 pm
So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.
Some weird interactions with existing cards:
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:35:34 pm
So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.
Some weird interactions with existing cards:
  • Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
  • Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
  • Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
  • Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.

    Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
  • Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 02:43:54 pm
So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.
Some weird interactions with existing cards:
  • Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
  • Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
  • Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
  • Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.

    Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
  • Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.
Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.

So okay, let's play a Band of Misfits. First step: "play this as if it were an Action card in the supply costing less than it that you choose". OK, TMap is in the supply, and I choose it, and now play as it. First step: "trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand". Okay, I trash the Band-of-Misfits (which is still a BoM, keep in mind!), at which point it leaves play, along with a Treasure Map from my hand. Next step: "if you do trash two Treasure Maps, ...". But I didn't, I trashed a BoM and a TMap, so I don't get the reward.

Okay, done first step of BoM. Second step: "this is that card until it leaves play". That is, the BoM (which is now in the trash) becomes a Treasure Map, "until it leaves play". Well, it already left play, so too late, it'll need to leave play again sometime later to revert back to BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 15, 2012, 02:46:04 pm
It's really the various when-you-trash-this and when-you-(would-)discard-this-from-play interactions that are going to make Band of Misfits confusing. I have no idea how those are going to work.

Well, most, if not all, TFB cards are when they are trashed from your hand. Band of Misfits becomes a different action when you play it, so if you trash it from hand, it will still be a Band of Misfits, so you wont get any TFB.

I think he may have been talking about cards like Mining Village and Embargo that are trashed after they are played. Since BoM assumed those cards, if I choose to trash it for +$2 (a la Mining Village), does BoM get trashed? I brought this up discreetly earlier when we weren't allowed to talk about the cards.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 02:46:44 pm
So, how many bugs will Band of Misfits have? I think Doug had an obscure one he never fixed.
Some weird interactions with existing cards:
  • Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
  • Crossroads looks at "have I played Crossroads previously on this turn". I figure BoM-as-XR should count. Tricky to code though.
  • Throne Rooming or King's Courting a BoM: after the first choice of card, it becomes that card, so you don't get to change it the second/third plays.
  • Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.

    Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
  • Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.

Well, Donald X. would have to step in, but in my opinion, leaving play means getting trashed or being placed on a mat, so BoM becomes BoM in those instances. Also, I would say it is very clear that you can play BoM as a TM, but you would need an actual TM in your hand to trigger the effect.
Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.

So okay, let's play a Band of Misfits. First step: "play this as if it were an Action card in the supply costing less than it that you choose". OK, TMap is in the supply, and I choose it, and now play as it. First step: "trash this and another copy of Treasure Map from your hand". Okay, I trash the Band-of-Misfits (which is still a BoM, keep in mind!), at which point it leaves play, along with a Treasure Map from my hand. Next step: "if you do trash two Treasure Maps, ...". But I didn't, I trashed a BoM and a TMap, so I don't get the reward.

Okay, done first step of BoM. Second step: "this is that card until it leaves play". That is, the BoM (which is now in the trash) becomes a Treasure Map, "until it leaves play". Well, it already left play, so too late, it'll need to leave play again sometime later to revert back to BoM.
No, I think you're missing something - I read "this is that card" as simply explaining when BoM morphs back into BoM - a clarification, not another step. Remember, the first step is "Play this as if it were an Action card..." and you did - you played it as a TM! So the other TM sees it and they trash.

*of course, this is just my reasoned guess!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 02:47:24 pm
Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash.

Not sure I buy this. "This is that card until it leaves play" sounds a whole lot like a while-in-play clause, not an on-play event. It's a Treasure Map while it's in play, and it's not a Treasure Map when it's not in play, period.

But the interaction of BoM with trash-from-play cards is still confusing to me. You get 4 Golds "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Well, one of the cards you trashed was a Treasure Map before you trashed it, but before it hit the Trash pile it became a Band of Misfits again. Do you get your four Golds?

Or even: play Band of Misfits. Play it as Embargo. As you do when you play a card, you follow the instructions on it one at a time. So, first instruction, get +$2. Second instruction, you trash it. Now the card is in the trash, it's not an Embargo anymore... and since it's not an Embargo, there are no instructions left to follow. Do you still place an embargo token?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 02:48:10 pm
I'm jumping on the thinking-about-interactions-before-we've-seen-the-faq bandwagon!

Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?

(Edit: clearer)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:49:22 pm
For BoM there COULD be something glitchy to code with the specs

1) If the supply is empty it can't be that card


I KC+BOM, choose rats (of which there are 2 left). First resolution I gain rats, second resolution I gain rats, Third resolution should be (I think) resolve rats.

But it could easily be coded in a way that it doesn't know what to do here as rats are no longer in the supply. A fringe case, and one that could easily be a good foresight to have as it could be missed.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 02:49:36 pm
Man, now I know why the "lose track" rule is in the Dark Ages rulebook!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 02:50:07 pm
(I'll note that the general "play this as if it were another card in the supply" concept has been a very common fan card proposal, and usually shot down because of the rules paradoxes it would cause....)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:52:54 pm
  • Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
Don't see how it matters, either way you get a Band of Misfits on your deck.

  • Play a BoM as a Treasure Map with another Treasure Map in hand. You trash it and the Treasure Map from your hand. Do you get 4 Golds? TMap says "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Note that, going by BoM wording, it does not become a Treasure Map until after being played. So I think at the time you trash it, it's not a Treasure Map, and therefore you don't get 4 Golds.

    Furthermore, since the card actually leaves play while being played, BEFORE "this is that card until it leaves play" takes effect, it actually becomes a Treasure Map permanently once in the trash. If you Graverobber it from the trash, you can then later play it as a normal Treasure Map to trash it, and at that point it becomes a BoM again in the trash. LOL?
  • Play a BoM as an Island. As with TMap, it leaves play before the "this is that card until it leaves play" instruction, so it actually is still an Island on the Island mat, and therefore counts for 2 VP at the end of the game.
You can play BoM as Treasure Map, trash another Treasure Map from your hand, and gain four Golds. You did trash two Treasure Maps. In the trash it's a BoM again though.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:54:18 pm
Well here is why I think this way. The Band of Misfits wording is: "Play this as if it were an Action card in
the supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play." Two steps. In Dominion, when there are two steps, you always do them in order.
No, "this is that card until it leaves play" is telling you when the effect ends and clarifying how it works; it's the first sentence that causes BoM to be the other card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:55:51 pm
I think he may have been talking about cards like Mining Village and Embargo that are trashed after they are played. Since BoM assumed those cards, if I choose to trash it for +$2 (a la Mining Village), does BoM get trashed? I brought this up discreetly earlier when we weren't allowed to talk about the cards.
The two main question answers for BoM are: 1) if you play it as a Feast etc., you trash the BoM; and 2) if you play it as a duration or throne on a duration, it stays out.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 02:57:14 pm
  • Scheme needs to choose an Action card you have in play. But if you played, say, both a Village, a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Village, and a Band-of-Misfits-as-a-Smithy, the interface for this becomes tricky to get right.
Don't see how it matters, either way you get a Band of Misfits on your deck.
Good point, I should have said one is a BoM-as-a-Village and the other is a BoM-as-a-Fishing-Village (just played this turn). So the second can't get returned to your deck at the end of this turn, and so it matters which you pick.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 02:58:06 pm
Hey Donald - you suck for not being grateful enough to Kirian etc.
But that doesn't make you an incredible monster.
Hope this is clear enough for you!
http://chainsawsuit.com/2011/10/21/cautions-from-a-former-employer/

I was always under the impression that that phrase was meant to imply that you should get out as quickly as possibly, butt-hitting suggesting that you're taking your sweet ass time to leave.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:59:22 pm
But the interaction of BoM with trash-from-play cards is still confusing to me. You get 4 Golds "if you do trash two Treasure Maps". Well, one of the cards you trashed was a Treasure Map before you trashed it, but before it hit the Trash pile it became a Band of Misfits again. Do you get your four Golds?
When you trashed BoM it was a Treasure Map; you did trash a Treasure Map. It just isn't one anymore.

Or even: play Band of Misfits. Play it as Embargo. As you do when you play a card, you follow the instructions on it one at a time. So, first instruction, get +$2. Second instruction, you trash it. Now the card is in the trash, it's not an Embargo anymore... and since it's not an Embargo, there are no instructions left to follow. Do you still place an embargo token?
You still place the token.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 03:01:51 pm
What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 03:02:19 pm
Hey Donald - you suck for not being grateful enough to Kirian etc.
But that doesn't make you an incredible monster.
Hope this is clear enough for you!
http://chainsawsuit.com/2011/10/21/cautions-from-a-former-employer/

I was always under the impression that that phrase was meant to imply that you should get out as quickly as possibly, butt-hitting suggesting that you're taking your sweet ass time to leave.

You should probably put a hyphen in there somewhere.

http://xkcd.com/37/
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:02:33 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 03:08:57 pm
What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 03:11:38 pm
What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

That seems to be answered above, especially with the discussion of Treasure Map. If it's trashed from play, it gives the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics. (If it's trashed from elsewhere, it's not mimicking anything.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:12:00 pm
What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.
It seems clear to me that it should. Trashing is one possible way for a card to leave play, so the on-trash effect and the revert-to-BoM effect both trigger, which means they will both happen (in the order the player chooses).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 03:13:24 pm
What I want to know (and this was under spoiler tags):

Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?

Yeah, whether or not Band of Misfits gives you the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics is really the biggest remaining question, especially since it's in Dark Ages.

That seems to be answered above, especially with the discussion of Treasure Map. If it's trashed from play, it gives the on-trash benefits of the card it mimics. (If it's trashed from elsewhere, it's not mimicking anything.)

Treasure Map doesn't have an on-trash benefit. It trashes itself and another copy of itself when you play it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:14:14 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:14:56 pm
(I'll note that the general "play this as if it were another card in the supply" concept has been a very common fan card proposal, and usually shot down because of the rules paradoxes it would cause....)
I took it out of the set at one point, but decided this wording made it workable.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:16:32 pm
Good point, I should have said one is a BoM-as-a-Village and the other is a BoM-as-a-Fishing-Village (just played this turn). So the second can't get returned to your deck at the end of this turn, and so it matters which you pick.
Ah. Yes in this situation you want to know which is which and I am betting that nothing will track that but the log. Possibly there's some graphic solution involving overlaying the card you played BoM as over the BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:17:40 pm
http://chainsawsuit.com/2011/10/21/cautions-from-a-former-employer/

I was always under the impression that that phrase was meant to imply that you should get out as quickly as possibly, butt-hitting suggesting that you're taking your sweet ass time to leave.
No dude, it is all about butt safety.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:19:07 pm
Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?
This one is in the FAQ, hooray. BoM goes back to your hand and you gain an action card costing $6. At the point at which you trashed it, it had an ability that returned it to your hand if it was trashed; at the point at which we need to know its cost, it's back to $5.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:19:47 pm
Well, I guess I can discuss it now that Don has confirmed them?

Anyway, in spoiler tags:
Hand:
Rats, Rats, Fortress, Watchtower, Anything
1) Play Rats, draw anything, gain Rats, topdeck them. Eat Fortress, put Fortress back into your hand.
2) Play Rats, draw topdecked Rats, gain Rats, topdeck them. Eat Fortress, put Fortress back into your hand.
Repeat 2) untill you you empty the pile.


That spoiler-tagged card is going to make TfB cards soooo much more interesting.

Agreed. If you have a Remake and even one Fortress in hand, you can gain 2 cards costing $5 and still keep your Fortress.

What I really want to know, is if you Procession a Band of Misfits, and on its second play choose to emulate Fortress, does the Band of Misfits get returned to your hand?  Because "until it leaves play" - trashing, to me, means leaving play.  But the Fortress effect is a "when you trash", meaning it would be simultaneous with the trashing, so I think this would be a blue dog instance, in which case, you should be able to put Band of Misfits in your hand.  The next problem would be can you gain a card worth $5 or $6 from Procession?  Do you go by Band of Misfits cost, or the cost of the card it's emulating?
My intuition from the "blue dog" discussion is that "it" always refers to a specific physical card, not a name of a card. So if "it" in this situation refers to the Band-of-Misfits-formerly-known-as-Fortress, then "it" has cost $5, meaning you gain a card of cost $6.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:20:28 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 03:21:22 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 03:23:16 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.

But you confirm that this is what's supposed to happen? (I.e., Band of Misfits isn't considered to also be in play under its own name, or whatever.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:25:41 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
Yeah, I can't justify to myself that the second play would be a Feast, since Throne Room says "it", where "it" refers to the BoM-formerly-known-as-Feast, and on the second play, the BoM is clearly a BoM and not a Feast, since it has already left play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: clb on August 15, 2012, 03:26:28 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
I saw this as Throne room looks around for a card to play, sees Feast, and decides to play it twice. It doesn't matter that Feast wanders off to play with his friends in the trash - Throne Room saw Feast, so it Feasts twice. Most cards don't have the option of wandering away when Throned, but Feast is special. BoM, then, is Feast for Throne Room. Even though it not only wanders off, but also reverts to BoM, Throne Room still saw Feast and wants its smorgesborg.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: theory on August 15, 2012, 03:27:05 pm
Split and moved, since this is what this thread is really about now.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:31:23 pm
Also this particular question is not that esoteric, since it happens with any multiplier (TR, KC, Procession) of a BoM that imitates a self-trashing card (Embargo, Treasure Map, Mining Village, Feast).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 03:31:44 pm
Ooh ooh how about this one!

Play Band of Misfits, declaring it a Village. Then play Conspirator. Is the Conspirator non-terminal because you've already played two actions (BoM and Village)? Based on the wording of the card and the comparison with Throne Room, I'll guess yes: there are two card-playing events implicated in the BoM, one when you actually play it from your hand and one when you follow its instruction to play it as another card.

Donald, if these are getting annoying, by all means let us know.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 03:33:18 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
I saw this as Throne room looks around for a card to play, sees Feast, and decides to play it twice. It doesn't matter that Feast wanders off to play with his friends in the trash - Throne Room saw Feast, so it Feasts twice. Most cards don't have the option of wandering away when Throned, but Feast is special. BoM, then, is Feast for Throne Room. Even though it not only wanders off, but also reverts to BoM, Throne Room still saw Feast and wants its smorgesborg.

But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:37:52 pm
Throne Roome - Band of Misfits.
You choose Feast.

So you trash the Feast-y Band of Misfits and gain a card.
Then you play the card again, but since it has left play it isn't a Feast anymore, so you get to choose a new action card you want the second play of the (trashed) BoM behave as?
No, you still Feast twice. I uh. My explanation is that Throne Room played Feast twice, and if that Feast is now a Band of Misfits, that's just its own personal thing. This one is not in the FAQ. I checked isotropic and funsockets and they both have you Feast twice, for what that's worth.

That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
I saw this as Throne room looks around for a card to play, sees Feast, and decides to play it twice. It doesn't matter that Feast wanders off to play with his friends in the trash - Throne Room saw Feast, so it Feasts twice. Most cards don't have the option of wandering away when Throned, but Feast is special. BoM, then, is Feast for Throne Room. Even though it not only wanders off, but also reverts to BoM, Throne Room still saw Feast and wants its smorgesborg.

But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.

Just remember, Donald X. is God, so if he says the card works that way, then well...
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:37:55 pm
That's... not what I would have expected.

Throne Room isn't playing Feast twice in any case: consider the case of BoM-as-Smithy. Throne Room plays Band of Misfits once; BoM plays Smithy; Throne Room tries to play BoM a second time, but when it looks for BoM it finds a Smithy and it's like, whatever, I guess I'll just play that then. So the Throne Room itself plays BoM once and Smithy once.

But this perhaps is wading a bit too far into the weeds to be useful.
Well it's a real question that wants a good answer.

The question is how Throne Room works; Band of Misfits is def. no longer a Feast in the trash. This question came up during work on the set, and was part of how it got the wording it got, to deal with questions as well as possible, but this question didn't come back up afterwards. I guess there's also, you are saying Throne didn't play Smithy, but that's not clear either. You play BoM as if it were etc. If you play it as Smithy, didn't you Throne a Smithy?

Anyway for the moment let's stick with, you Feast twice, since that was what made sense to me upon hearing the question.
And I will think about it in my copious free time.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:38:59 pm
where did the thread go
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 03:39:25 pm
where did the thread go

theory moved it to dark ages previews. Band of Misfits rules questions
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: theory on August 15, 2012, 03:39:44 pm
I'll move these posts too.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:40:48 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.

But you confirm that this is what's supposed to happen? (I.e., Band of Misfits isn't considered to also be in play under its own name, or whatever.)
Yes, HoP will just see BoM as what it copied.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 03:41:07 pm
Procession.
Band of Misfits - turn it into Fortress.

Does it go back into my hand?
This one is in the FAQ, hooray. BoM goes back to your hand and you gain an action card costing $6. At the point at which you trashed it, it had an ability that returned it to your hand if it was trashed; at the point at which we need to know its cost, it's back to $5.

Sweet!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 03:43:41 pm
Another fun fact about BoM:

If you pick up a BoM with Golem you should be able to play it as a new Golem! (You have revealed an action card that is not Golem, but then when you play it you can make it become Golem.)

(EDIT: No, this is wrong!)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:44:05 pm
Also this particular question is not that esoteric, since it happens with any multiplier (TR, KC, Procession) of a BoM that imitates a self-trashing card (Embargo, Treasure Map, Mining Village, Feast).
It does not need to be non-esoteric to be worth answering, but I do not imagine this will come up too often in games. You need BoM and one of a small number of cards and one of a small number of cards, and then, you are trashing your BoM, didn't you want that.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:44:27 pm
I think that the meaning of "it" is key here. In the blue dog discussion, the reason Ironworks doesn't give you +1 Action if you Ironworks an Ironworks then reveal a Trader is that "it" refers to the particular physical card that was gained, NOT to a card name. So because you did not actually gain any particular Ironworks, you don't get the +1 Action, even though the Ironworks remembers that you wanted to gain something named "Ironworks".

So here, I think the "it" on Throne Room must be referring to the particular physical Band of Misfits card, not to the card name "Feast".

On the other hand, imagine that TR does play BoM as a Feast the second time. Then, there is no particular physical card that Throne Room is playing; it's not playing BoM, because BoM does not think it's a Feast anymore. To me, that goes against the general interpretation of "it" in Dominion.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:44:42 pm
Man, this is one complicated, but awesome set.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 03:46:12 pm
Fun thing to do Reread the thread and think "Buy only Money" when you see BoM
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:46:32 pm
Play Band of Misfits, declaring it a Village. Then play Conspirator. Is the Conspirator non-terminal because you've already played two actions (BoM and Village)? Based on the wording of the card and the comparison with Throne Room, I'll guess yes: there are two card-playing events implicated in the BoM, one when you actually play it from your hand and one when you follow its instruction to play it as another card.

Donald, if these are getting annoying, by all means let us know.
You only played one card prior to Conspirator; BoM is played as a Village.

Ask away, I can always leave and come back later. I would post the FAQ but it has secrets.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:47:36 pm
Another fun fact about BoM:

If you pick up a BoM with Golem you should be able to play it as a new Golem! (You have revealed an action card that is not Golem, but then when you play it you can make it become Golem.)
Only if some new card lowers costs by P.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:48:23 pm
But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:49:08 pm
Just remember, Donald X. is God, so if he says the card works that way, then well...
Man, I have been wrong about stuff. Also now you will get people saying how unhumble I am because I think I get to decide how cards work.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:50:31 pm
Split and moved, since this is what this thread is really about now.
You could close the other thread, that way people won't accidentally post there, he said as if this were the reason.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: xitoliv on August 15, 2012, 03:50:38 pm
What was the isotropic/prototype art for Band of Misfits?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:51:04 pm
Also this particular question is not that esoteric, since it happens with any multiplier (TR, KC, Procession) of a BoM that imitates a self-trashing card (Embargo, Treasure Map, Mining Village, Feast).
It does not need to be non-esoteric to be worth answering, but I do not imagine this will come up too often in games. You need BoM and one of a small number of cards and one of a small number of cards, and then, you are trashing your BoM, didn't you want that.
True, although TR'ing/KC'ing a BoM for cash on your final turn (to buy a Province) is realistic enough. Still not going to happen much, but still a reasonable play in that situation.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 15, 2012, 03:51:07 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.

But you confirm that this is what's supposed to happen? (I.e., Band of Misfits isn't considered to also be in play under its own name, or whatever.)
Yes, HoP will just see BoM as what it copied.

Wait, this is a bit confusing. The wording on HoP is "per differently named card you have in play." Wouldn't playing Village, BoM (as a Village), and HoP give you the ability to gain a 3 cost card. What I'm getting at is that BoM is named BoM, and not the card whose effect is getting assumed.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:51:46 pm
I think the best way to look at Band of Misfits is like Clone from Magic: The Gathering.

Clone is a copy of a creature while in play. It is no longer Clone. When it is anywhere but play, it's Clone. So, when you play, BoM via TR or KC, you play it as the card you are cloning. It is no longer BoM. It is that card. Then, when the action has resolved and everything and it is no longer in play, it goes back to being BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 03:51:51 pm
What was the isotropic/prototype art for Band of Misfits?

That's what I want to know.  Also, I'm betting the FAQ for Band of Misfits will be longer than Possession, Watchtower and Trader combined.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:52:13 pm
But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:52:36 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.

But you confirm that this is what's supposed to happen? (I.e., Band of Misfits isn't considered to also be in play under its own name, or whatever.)
Yes, HoP will just see BoM as what it copied.

Wait, this is a bit confusing. The wording on HoP is "per differently named card you have in play." Wouldn't playing Village, BoM (as a Village), and HoP give you the ability to gain a 3 cost card. What I'm getting at is that BoM is named BoM, and not the card whose effect is getting assumed.

BoM is not called BoM while in play. It's name would be Village.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 03:52:52 pm
Only if some new card lowers costs by P.

Oops, right, I forgot about the cost requirement.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:53:15 pm
Just remember, Donald X. is God, so if he says the card works that way, then well...
Man, I have been wrong about stuff. Also now you will get people saying how unhumble I am because I think I get to decide how cards work.

I was joking.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:53:54 pm
What was the isotropic/prototype art for Band of Misfits?
It was some random drawing of three adventurers.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 03:54:27 pm
Another potential source of bugs: I play a Village, then a BoM-as-a-Village, then a Horn of Plenty. HoP should only see two different names of cards (Village/BoM-as-a-Village and HoP).
I bet it will work, but sadly I cannot test this one yet.

But you confirm that this is what's supposed to happen? (I.e., Band of Misfits isn't considered to also be in play under its own name, or whatever.)
Yes, HoP will just see BoM as what it copied.

Wait, this is a bit confusing. The wording on HoP is "per differently named card you have in play." Wouldn't playing Village, BoM (as a Village), and HoP give you the ability to gain a 3 cost card. What I'm getting at is that BoM is named BoM, and not the card whose effect is getting assumed.

When you play BoM as a Village, it becomes Village.  For purposes of understanding, we might refer to it as BoM-as-Village, but for purposes of the game it is a Village.  So when HoP looks at what is in play, it does not see BoM -- it sees Village.  That is, BoM is not in play, Village is in play (even though that Village is really a BoM).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:54:31 pm
Just remember, Donald X. is God, so if he says the card works that way, then well...
Man, I have been wrong about stuff. Also now you will get people saying how unhumble I am because I think I get to decide how cards work.

I was joking.
Also people will say how I can't take a joke.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 03:55:06 pm
BoM is going to be exceptionally nice with cards that outlive their usefulness at some point: Sea Hag being a key example.

If you happen to open 5/2 vs 4/3 it's woohoo! And gg.

If you play it as Mining Village or Embargo I guess it gets trashed just the same.
When you play it as Treasure Map, you'll still need another TM (not a BoM) to get the Golds.

If you play it as an Island, I guess you set it aside.

But I don't understand HoP: BoM has its own name and you play BoM, not the actual card. You just use whatever card text is on the card you are copying, right?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 03:55:22 pm
But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
But the evaluation of Throne Room is prior to the determination of BoM.

Throne Room: play an action from your hand twice
>> Which action?
BoM
>> Okay!  So I'm playing BoM twice.  Go ahead with BoM 1.
BoM: I'm a Feast
... resolution of BoM as Feast (gaining 1 thing).
>> Okay! BoM 1 is done.  Go ahead with BoM 2.
BoM: I'm a Pearl Diver
... resolution of BoM as Pearl Diver.


I probably didn't need all of that.  Feel free to forget everything except the argument in the first line.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:55:38 pm
Wait, this is a bit confusing. The wording on HoP is "per differently named card you have in play." Wouldn't playing Village, BoM (as a Village), and HoP give you the ability to gain a 3 cost card. What I'm getting at is that BoM is named BoM, and not the card whose effect is getting assumed.
BoM is just a Village until it leaves play. Village is named Village.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:56:21 pm
That's what I want to know.  Also, I'm betting the FAQ for Band of Misfits will be longer than Possession, Watchtower and Trader combined.
It is probably top ten but cannot touch those three.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 03:58:20 pm
That's what I want to know.  Also, I'm betting the FAQ for Band of Misfits will be longer than Possession, Watchtower and Trader combined.
It is probably top ten but cannot touch those three.

Well, that's no fun.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 15, 2012, 03:58:56 pm
I guess the "This is that card" clause on BoM clears up the HoP question.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 03:59:32 pm
But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
But the evaluation of Throne Room is prior to the determination of BoM.

Throne Room: play an action from your hand twice
>> Which action?
BoM
>> Okay!  So I'm playing BoM twice.  Go ahead with BoM 1.
BoM: I'm a Feast
... resolution of BoM as Feast (gaining 1 thing).
>> Okay! BoM 1 is done.  Go ahead with BoM 2.
BoM: I'm a Pearl Diver
... resolution of BoM as Pearl Diver.


I probably didn't need all of that.  Feel free to forget everything except the argument in the first line.

Actually I disagree with my argument here.  Pardon me all.

The text of BoM is key.  Essentially: play as X; until the card leaves play it is X.

Throne Room: play a card.
Card?
BoM.
BoM?
I'm a Village from the time I enter play until the time I leave play.
Okay... entering play... village 1
(resolve)
Still in play, village 2
(resolve)
End of Throne Room.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 04:00:05 pm
BoM is going to be exceptionally nice with cards that outlive their usefulness at some point: Sea Hag being a key example.

If you happen to open 5/2 vs 4/3 it's woohoo! And gg.

If you play it as Mining Village or Embargo I guess it gets trashed just the same.
When you play it as Treasure Map, you'll still need another TM (not a BoM) to get the Golds.

If you play it as an Island, I guess you set it aside.

But I don't understand HoP: BoM has its own name and you play BoM, not the actual card. You just use whatever card text is on the card you are copying, right?

The card text isn't copied. The card is copied including name and cost.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:00:54 pm
I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: adf on August 15, 2012, 04:03:56 pm
What was the isotropic/prototype art for Band of Misfits?
(http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Looking-for-the-Grail-monty-python-and-the-holy-grail-591568_800_441.jpg)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 04:04:59 pm
I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.

I think the "this is that card until it leaves play" clause rather firmly supports that ruling.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 04:06:50 pm
But Throne Room doesn't see Feast. When you play the Throne Room, the BoM is still in your hand, so it's not a Feast yet. All Throne Room sees at this point is a Band of Misfits.
I am not so clear on this. I played BoM as Feast. So I Throned a Feast. That seems like a reasonable way to look at it.

You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:


In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:


So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:


Right?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 04:09:44 pm
OK, here's my attempt at a decent explanation of why Throne Room/Band of Misfits/Feast works the way it does.

Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …" So, Smithy would read, "When you play this, +3 Cards." You'll notice that all Treasure cards that do things other than give coins have this wording explicitly.

Band of Misfits doesn't have this wording, implicit or otherwise. Band of Misfits becomes a card you choose during the act of playing it, before it hits the table (and hence before you actually play it). That's also a good reason why the "This is that card until it leaves play" bit isn't a separate step you take. There are no steps at all on Band of Misfits because it doesn't truly have an on-play effect like every other Action card does.

Does that sound good?

EDIT: Dang, ninja'd by AJD. Great minds think alike!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 04:10:11 pm
Right?

Seems right.  Throne room is telling you to play it... "Play it" in the same sense that you would if you were playing it as an action-consuming event in your action phase.  When you play BoM (for whatever reason) it is something else until it leaves play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:12:59 pm
I see it as "I Throned a particular card, which was named Feast". Seems weird for Throne Room to remember the name of the card.
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.
Here's how I'd work it out.

Throne Room reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.". I think this should be equivalent to "Choose an Action card A in your hand. Play A. Play A.". Same meaning, but it's easier to work out carefully.

Suppose we have a card X in hand. X is a Band of Misfits. We also have a Throne Room in hand.

We play Throne Room. We choose X as the card for Throne Room to play. So A = X.

Throne Room's first "play X" happens now. X's BoM effect takes over. We choose to have it played as a Feast. X is now a Feast, with the stipulation that when X leaves play, X will be a BoM again.

The first step of Feast is "trash this card". So we trash X. At this point, X has left play, so it becomes a BoM. The second step of Feast is "gain a card costing up to $5". So we do (this part doesn't really matter).

Throne Room's second "play X" happens now. Since X is a Band of Misfits, X's BoM effect takes over. We choose to have it played as <whatever>, doesn't need to be a Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 04:14:25 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 04:16:36 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Oh, but it is! Just before the +$1!

Quote
Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.

Exactly.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:16:51 pm
What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:
Yes, playing BoM as Smithy should be exactly the same as playing a Smithy. The card in your hand gave you options, but what you played was a Smithy; it doesn't get played and then sit in play waiting for you to pick the card to play it as (although I don't remember offhand what the display shows in the online version there).

And that wording was chosen specifically because it cleared up some rules questions like this one.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:18:27 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 04:19:19 pm
And that wording was chosen specifically because it cleared up some rules questions like this one.

Well, obviously I'm not totally confident that the wording had that desired effect ;), but your explanations have. Thanks.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 04:20:30 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

Throne Room never sees the card as anything other than what you declare it to be. So if you Throne Room a Feast, it's not playing that particular physical card twice. It's playing Feast twice.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: mnavratil on August 15, 2012, 04:20:45 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

With this interpretation Throne Room never actually plays the Bom, it plays the Feast directly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by LastFootnote.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:21:45 pm
To be clear, I see how TR of BoM-as-Feast could be interpreted as forcing the second play to be a Feast: when Throne Room says "it", it doesn't refer to the particular BoM card, but instead remembers the name "Feast".

My hang-up is that in the Ironworks/Trader ruling, it seems clear that the Ironworks doesn't remember the name of the card it would have gained. Why can Throne Room remember names but Ironworks can't?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 04:22:22 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:23:02 pm
Every Action card we've seen before Dark Ages has had an implicit but omitted prefix of "When you play this, …"

(Actually, it's not omitted on Noble Brigand.)

Yeah, so the Band-of-Misfits situation seems to be more of a when-you-would-play scenario—comparable to the difference between the timing of Trader's and Watchtower's reactions.
This explains the Conspirator interaction to me, but I don't see how it has much to do with Throne Room.

With this interpretation Throne Room never actually plays the Bom, it plays the Feast directly.

EDIT: Ninja'd by LastFootnote.
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:24:02 pm
Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 04:24:34 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 04:25:42 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:26:16 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 04:27:15 pm
So BoM just morphs into whatever it wants to be as long as there are still copies of the card you want it to be in the Supply.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 04:28:03 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

The instructions for Feast are in the Supply. If Feast wasn't in the Supply (say because the pile was empty), then Band of Misfits can't become Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 04:28:48 pm
So BoM just morphs into whatever it wants to be as long as there are still copies of the card you want it to be in the Supply.

Yes. As long as it cost less than BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:28:53 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 04:30:00 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

Throne Room interacts with Feast, so that is the card that gets Throne Roomed, not BoM. You are not targeting BoM with TR, you are targeting Feast which BoM is when you play it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:31:20 pm
To be clear, I see how TR of BoM-as-Feast could be interpreted as forcing the second play to be a Feast: when Throne Room says "it", it doesn't refer to the particular BoM card, but instead remembers the name "Feast".

My hang-up is that in the Ironworks/Trader ruling, it seems clear that the Ironworks doesn't remember the name of the card it would have gained. Why can Throne Room remember names but Ironworks can't?
Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: rinkworks on August 15, 2012, 04:32:08 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

Sounds like BoM isn't really even part of your question.  You seem to be asking why Throne Rooming an actual Feast works.  Or do I misunderstand?

Anyway, seems like TR-BoMasFeast would work the same as TR-Feast regardless.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:32:26 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

Throne Room interacts with Feast, so that is the card that gets Throne Roomed, not BoM. You are not targeting BoM with TR, you are targeting Feast which BoM is when you play it.
Which Feast? What is the "it" on Throne Room referring to?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 15, 2012, 04:32:43 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

The Feast that it's now lost track of. It's pretty similar to when you... you know... Throne Room a Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 04:32:52 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?
BoM is a Ditto. It morphed into Feast.

If there's an issue with that*, it's that you can Throne Room a Feast in the first place, not any sort of BoM interaction.

*there's not

/ninja'd by everyone
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 04:32:57 pm
This is from the base rules:
Quote
If you use Throne Room on Feast, you will
gain two cards, even though you can only trash Feast once.
Gaining the card isn't contingent on trashing Feast; they're just
two things that the card tries to make you do.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:33:12 pm
So TR'ing a BoM lets you choose twice, right?

So if we pick Feast the first time, we trash it and gain a $5 card.
We could choose Feast a 2nd time and get a $5 card.

And if we pick Mining Village the 2nd time, do we get $2 if we trash it?

No. According to Donald X. BoM is whatever card you play it as. You aren't TRing a BoM, you are TRing a Feast, if you choose Feast.
But how can a card be played that doesn't exist? Either it plays the BoM the second time, in which case it's playing a BoM-as-whatever-you-choose-that-second-time, or it doesn't, in which case... which card is it playing? Where is the Feast?

Sounds like BoM isn't really even part of your question.  You seem to be asking why Throne Rooming an actual Feast works.  Or do I misunderstand?

Anyway, seems like TR-BoMasFeast would work the same as TR-Feast regardless.
No, Throne Rooming a Feast is fine, because the second time the Feast gets played, it's played while it's in the trash, but that's okay. There is still a Feast card that's being played. I know what "it" means here.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:33:16 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:33:56 pm
Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?
No, that way lies madness.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:35:40 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?
If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.
In this case it's the ashes of the Feast card that are getting played. Similar to how, even if a card had some words covered up on the front, we'd still know how to play it, because we remember what was printed on it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:38:32 pm
But what Feast? After the first play, there is no Feast that exists anymore. Is it playing the card name Feast? Some arbitrary Feast from the supply?

It's playing the same Feast that it did before. It's lost track of it - it doesn't know where it is! - but so what?

Maybe the correct ruling is that if BoM imitates a Feast in the supply, then when Feast says "trash this", then the Feast in the supply gets trashed too?

I don't think that's how it works... BoM isn't imitating any particular Feast, it *is* a Feast.
Okay, if BoM is a Feast, then it's only a Feast the first time you play it. On the second time Throne Room plays something, which card is it playing?

The Feast that it's now lost track of. It's pretty similar to when you... you know... Throne Room a Feast.
From what we know of the "lose track" rule so far (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=78.0):
Quote
The "lose track" rule is this (don't hold me to this precise wording okay): If card A is doing stuff with card B, and something other than card A moves card B somewhere else, card A can no longer keep moving card B. It "loses track" of it.
So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 04:38:54 pm
blueblimp's question stems from BoM reverting to BoM when it leaves play.

When you throne a Feast, the card being played the second time is still a Feast -- it's just in the trash.

When you throne a BoM-as-Feast, the second play no longer has a Feast to refer to -- the card in the trash has reverted, it is no longer Feast, it is a BoM again.




Perhaps the proper answer is that, when you throne a Feast, the second play doesn't care about the Feats at all, whether it is in the trash or whatever.  It just knows, "I played Feast the first time, I am going to play Feast again."  So when you throne BoM-as-Feast, the TR on the second play goes, "I played Feast the first time, I am going to play Feast again," even though the Feast is not even a Feast anymore.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 04:44:12 pm
So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 04:47:16 pm
So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)

Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:50:06 pm
So the "lose track" rule only applies to moving cards, not to doing other stuff with it. Throne Room can still play the Feast, even though it doesn't know where it is. That's okay. But it is still playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to be in the trash at the moment.

So why can't you do that with BoM? Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card, just one that happens to have turned into a BoM after being put in the trash. Just like as if it had been burned or taken out of the game, you remember what text it has (and can even look at a different Feast in the supply, if you forgot.)
But at that point, BoM is no longer a Feast, so it's not true anymore that "Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card".
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 04:57:39 pm
Since Dominion cards are sort of like little computer programs, it might be useful to imagine implementing it as a computer program (in pseudo-code). This is how I might first try to implement Band of Misfits. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it illustrates the general idea. And it shows why it's pretty natural for the second play of BoM to allow a different choice than the first one, in my opinion.
Code: [Select]
def playFeast(card):
  card.trash()
  Gain a card costing up to $5.


class Feast:
  def play():
    playFeast(this)


def playMonument(card):
  +$2
  +1 VP token


class Monument:
  def play():
    playMonument(this)


def playThroneRoom(card):
  Choose an Action card 'x' in your hand.
  x.play()
  x.play()


class ThroneRoom:
  def play():
    playThroneRoom(this)


class BandOfMisfits:
  Initially, this.howToPlay = NULL

  def play():
    if this.howToPlay == NULL:
      First time...  this.howToPlay = playFeast
      Second time... this.howToPlay = playMonument

    this.howToPlay(this)

  def onLeavesPlay():
    this.howToPlay = NULL
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 05:01:26 pm
Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D

Hehe. That can only happen if you used the first Feast to gain a Feast, though! Since there had to be a Feast in the supply for BoM to be one.

=
But at that point, BoM is no longer a Feast, so it's not true anymore that "Throne Room is playing a particular Feast card".

Right, the Feast transformed into a BoM after being played. So TR plays the Feast that was there before but now magically transformed into a BoM! Weird. But there was definitely a Feast there before, and that's the card that Throne Room is playing twice.

I mean, I can certainly see your side of it, I think either interpretation can make sense, but this is the one Donald has picked for how this card works so I'm trying to explain it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 05:03:47 pm
I mean, I can certainly see your side of it, I think either interpretation can make sense, but this is the one Donald has picked for how this card works so I'm trying to explain it.
Plus, Donald X's interpretation is what I think the vast majority of players, who will never visit this forum, will interpret the card. Erring on the side of that would make sense, too, if both are plausible.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 05:04:13 pm
Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D

Hehe. That can only happen if you used the first Feast to gain a Feast, though! Since there had to be a Feast in the supply for BoM to be one.

 ;D
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: clb on August 15, 2012, 05:09:10 pm
The way that it sits in my head is that when TR "plays" Feast, it is doing that independent of the card - moving it doesn't change TR's action, nor does changing Feast's name (to BoM or something). TR isn't reaching into the grave to temporarily reanimate a card. Rather, TR receives its marching instructions from the card that is played, and then moves forward, doing that twice in a row, regardless if its general dies, changes his name, or whatever; TR is diligent and continues its given instructions. For me, in order to make the TR-Feast thing work in the first place, I had to divorce the second playing of the card from the card itself and append it to TR, independent an opperable on its own. This is because, for me, cards cannot be played from the trash - they aren't in play. Hence, TR must have some way of, on its own, retaining instructions. So BoM as Feast provided instructions, and leaves. Those instructions are still carried out.
That may not make sense to anyone else, but that it how it resolves in my head.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 05:11:29 pm
I think throne room explicitly acts on cards, and I think that BoM is one of those cards that is affected by the whole "while this is in play" thing.  Like highway.

As I understand it, throning a highway doesn't reduce costs by $2, because it goes down like this:
1. Play throne room, moving it from hand to in play.
2. Choose highway from hand
3. Play highway, moving it from hand to in play
4. Play that same highway, not moving it because it is already in play.
Conclusion: There is only one highway in play.  It was played twice.

When playing with cards I feel this is like playing the highway, then picking it up, then playing it again.  So the card's instructions happen when it hits the table, and throne room causes it to hit the table twice (though it never leaves play).

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

As for the throne room-BoM question, I think you pick once for normal cards, twice for cards that remove themselves from play.  Throne room specifically says that you play the CARD (that card) twice.  BoM refers to that same card (this card) with its transformation and replay.

So throne room-bom-smithy would be like:
1. Throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes a smithy
1.2.2. Play that card.
1.3. Play that second card again (from play).  It never left play, so it is still a smithy.


But throne room-bom-as-feast would be:
1. throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes feast.
1.2.2. Play that card (from play)
1.2.2.1 Trash that card.  (it becomes BoM in the trash)
1.2.2.2 Gain a card
1.3 Play that second card again (from the trash, since throne room doesn't lose track of feast, it shouldn't lose track of BoM).  It moves from trash to in play.
1.3.1 That card becomes smithy (or anything)
1.3.2 Play that card (from play)

Is there another way to reconcile it with how "while this is in play" interacts with throne room/kings court?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 05:15:08 pm
I think throne room explicitly acts on cards, and I think that BoM is one of those cards that is affected by the whole "while this is in play" thing.  Like highway.

As I understand it, throning a highway doesn't reduce costs by $2, because it goes down like this:
1. Play throne room, moving it from hand to in play.
2. Choose highway from hand
3. Play highway, moving it from hand to in play
4. Play that same highway, not moving it because it is already in play.
Conclusion: There is only one highway in play.  It was played twice.

When playing with cards I feel this is like playing the highway, then picking it up, then playing it again.  So the card's instructions happen when it hits the table, and throne room causes it to hit the table twice (though it never leaves play).

I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

As for the throne room-BoM question, I think you pick once for normal cards, twice for cards that remove themselves from play.  Throne room specifically says that you play the CARD (that card) twice.  BoM refers to that same card (this card) with its transformation and replay.

So throne room-bom-smithy would be like:
1. Throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes a smithy
1.2.2. Play that card.
1.3. Play that second card again (from play).  It never left play, so it is still a smithy.


But throne room-bom-as-feast would be:
1. throne room, from hand to play
1.1. Choose the second card in my hand that is a BoM
1.2. Play that second card.
1.2.1. That card becomes feast.
1.2.2. Play that card (from play)
1.2.2.1 Trash that card.  (it becomes BoM in the trash)
1.2.2.2 Gain a card
1.3 Play that second card again (from the trash, since throne room doesn't lose track of feast, it shouldn't lose track of BoM).  It moves from trash to in play.
1.3.1 That card becomes smithy (or anything)
1.3.2 Play that card (from play)

Is there another way to reconcile it with how "while this is in play" interacts with throne room/kings court?
I agree with most of this, but when Throne Room plays a card that's in the trash, it can't move it to play, because it has lost track of it. So step "1.3" is not quite right, in my opinion, since "it moves from trash to in play" doesn't happen.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 05:23:00 pm
I agree with most of this, but when Throne Room plays a card that's in the trash, it can't move it to play, because it has lost track of it. So step "1.3" is not quite right, in my opinion, since "it moves from trash to in play" doesn't happen.

I agree with that, come to think of it; I think I parsed Donald's ruling on feast as being that it can't be trashed the second time (because it's in the trash) but can be played twice anyway.  So it doesn't move out of the trash into play.  Either way, it's been played FROM the trash, and having made a stop at the trash, I think it probably isn't the feast anymore, and should be played as a fresh BoM.  Throne room shouldn't retain any magic about what BoM turned into after it played it the first time- all it cares about is "Play it (that card) twice."  Whatever that card happens to be at that moment.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 05:37:27 pm
I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 05:46:23 pm
I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.

Even if that's the case, there's not really, I don't think, such a thing as TR-Feast.  There's TR-Card.  If it transforms just before you play it (because it says play this as) then it becomes feast for TR to play it the first time.  As part of becoming another card, it loses its transforming text until it leaves play, so Smithy wouldn't allow you to pick twice.

But if it becomes feast, gets played as feast by TR, leaves play, becomes BoM again, then the TR plays "it" again and a new selection needs to be made so that TR can play it as some other card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 05:48:43 pm
I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.

Even if that's the case, there's not really, I don't think, such a thing as TR-Feast.  There's TR-Card.  If it transforms just before you play it (because it says play this as) then it becomes feast for TR to play it the first time.  As part of becoming another card, it loses its transforming text until it leaves play, so Smithy wouldn't allow you to pick twice.

But if it becomes feast, gets played as feast by TR, leaves play, becomes BoM again, then the TR plays "it" again and a new selection needs to be made so that TR can play it as some other card.

Not sure what you mean there.  TR-Card is a general case, but what is that Card?  In this case, it is Feast.  And the second time, when TR plays "it", "it" still refers to Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 05:50:48 pm
As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

That makes sense to me, mostly since the alternative interpretation when BoM is BoM again when played the second time (because it's in the trash then) has the problem that since BoM isn't "in play" when it becomes that other card it won't leave play! Only if it is retrieved from trash (as the card it pretends to be!) could it then enter play and then leave play. Surely too much bother to track!

But (and now I'm repeating a point from another thread), then I think that Procession-BoM should gain a card costing one more than the card BoM pretends to be, not one more than the BoM itself. Why would Procession suddenly see BoM for what it really is when it enters the trash if Throne Room doesn't?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 05:52:06 pm
Not sure what you mean there.  TR-Card is a general case, but what is that Card?  In this case, it is Feast.  And the second time, when TR plays "it", "it" still refers to Feast.

I think "it" refers to the card you chose, which has since transformed back to BoM because it moved to the trash.

Edit:

Because of the text of Throne Room.  "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."  In fact, if it said "Action" and not "Action card" I think I'd have a different opinion here.  As it is, "it" seems to me to refer specifically to the card you chose, regardless of what it has changed into between the two playings of it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 05:53:04 pm
I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.

Even if that's the case, there's not really, I don't think, such a thing as TR-Feast.  There's TR-Card.  If it transforms just before you play it (because it says play this as) then it becomes feast for TR to play it the first time.  As part of becoming another card, it loses its transforming text until it leaves play, so Smithy wouldn't allow you to pick twice.

But if it becomes feast, gets played as feast by TR, leaves play, becomes BoM again, then the TR plays "it" again and a new selection needs to be made so that TR can play it as some other card.
Nooooo! You're making this much harder than needed.

It does seem that BoM introduces a unique phase - instant metamorphosis - as you place it in play. "This is a Feast!" you say. Throne Room is waiting for a card. By the time it lands, it's a Feast! TR-Feast happens! Gain cards! Ok, that's over. Now what? Ah, there's a BoM in the trash! Ok, that action is over.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 05:54:20 pm
As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

That makes sense to me, mostly since the alternative interpretation when BoM is BoM again when played the second time (because it's in the trash then) has the problem that since BoM isn't "in play" when it becomes that other card it won't leave play! Only if it is retrieved from trash (as the card it pretends to be!) could it then enter play and then leave play. Surely too much bother to track!

But (and now I'm repeating a point from another thread), then I think that Procession-BoM should gain a card costing one more than the card BoM pretends to be, not one more than the BoM itself. Why would Procession suddenly see BoM for what it really is when it enters the trash if Throne Room doesn't?

I think I could explain this but it's difficult. :P

I actually think it would make more sense if TR-BoM let you choose a different card with each BoM.  I'm just trying to understand it given Donald X's ruling.

The reason why I think it should be TR-BoM is that TR says "Choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it twice."  When you choose BoM in your hand, it is still BoM; it hasn't transformed yet.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 05:54:43 pm
I sort of feel like BoM throne rooms itself.  When you play it, the instruction is to play it (again) as a different card.  It stays in play, turns into a different card, and I play it again (from in play).

This is incorrect though.  As discussed earlier in the thread, BoM's mimicry is not an on-play effect.  That is, you don't play BoM and then subsequently play it as something else.  Rather, it's very first play is already as something else -- it mimics another card before being played.

Therefore, when you play TR-BoM, TR has no idea that the card being throned was, is, or will be a BoM.  It just sees it as a Feast (or whatever you choose).  You don't actually play TR-BoM, you play TR-Feast, with the peculiarity that the Feast you are playing is really a BoM in disguise.

Even if that's the case, there's not really, I don't think, such a thing as TR-Feast.  There's TR-Card.  If it transforms just before you play it (because it says play this as) then it becomes feast for TR to play it the first time.  As part of becoming another card, it loses its transforming text until it leaves play, so Smithy wouldn't allow you to pick twice.

But if it becomes feast, gets played as feast by TR, leaves play, becomes BoM again, then the TR plays "it" again and a new selection needs to be made so that TR can play it as some other card.

Not sure what you mean there.  TR-Card is a general case, but what is that Card?  In this case, it is Feast.  And the second time, when TR plays "it", "it" still refers to Feast.

What he is saying is that the first time TR plays the BoM-as-Feast, the card is removed from play (because of its Feastiness).  At that time, BoM is no longer Feast, so it should be BoM-as-something-else for round 2 of the TR.

Unfortunately, I don't think it holds water.  Good observation, but the problem is that Round 2 of the TR does not specify that the card has to remain in play, just that the card had to have been the one selected for play.  In this case, TR selected a BoM-as-Feast, not just a BoM simply, and thus the effects of its Feastiness must be what happens during TR2.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 05:55:22 pm
Oooh, not if there aren't any Feasts left in the supply, you can't!   ;D
Just look at the randomizer card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 05:56:19 pm
Since Dominion cards are sort of like little computer programs, it might be useful to imagine implementing it as a computer program (in pseudo-code). This is how I might first try to implement Band of Misfits. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it illustrates the general idea. And it shows why it's pretty natural for the second play of BoM to allow a different choice than the first one, in my opinion.
Yet the two entities who've programmed it, Doug Z. and funsockets, both have it working according to my ruling.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 05:57:12 pm
The reason why I think it should be TR-BoM is that TR says "Choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it twice."  When you choose BoM in your hand, it is still BoM; it hasn't transformed yet.
Impossible, I say, for a few reasons. Chiefly: TR-BoM is impossible. BoM will always transform into something else. It is impossible to ever choose BoM.

EDIT: To be clear, of course you can play TR-BoM physically, but for gameplay reasons, you will never TR-BoM. You might TR-Feast, or TR-Village, or TR-Sea Hag, but never TR-BoM.

Of course, in all these examples, BoM is hiding as the TR action.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:01:15 pm
Since Dominion cards are sort of like little computer programs, it might be useful to imagine implementing it as a computer program (in pseudo-code). This is how I might first try to implement Band of Misfits. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it illustrates the general idea. And it shows why it's pretty natural for the second play of BoM to allow a different choice than the first one, in my opinion.
Yet the two entities who've programmed it, Doug Z. and funsockets, both have it working according to my ruling.
Yes, but as I understand it, they were both adding it on to an existing system, which may have had some assumptions about things-that-can't-happen that required some weird modifications. The card is very awkward to implement.

Edit: To be more specific, if I were working with an existing implementation of Dominion rules, I might handle the card by just adding some special-case code for BoM to multiplier cards. Slightly ugly, but it gets the job done. But that doesn't say much about how the rules should work, because in the rules, Throne Room doesn't say anything specifically about BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 06:02:19 pm
But (and now I'm repeating a point from another thread), then I think that Procession-BoM should gain a card costing one more than the card BoM pretends to be, not one more than the BoM itself. Why would Procession suddenly see BoM for what it really is when it enters the trash if Throne Room doesn't?

Probably because of order.  "Trash a card.  Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it."  In the first step, BoM moves into the trash and then turns back into BoM.  "it" still refers to the card you trashed, which at the time of the second step, is a BoM.  (Rather than, for instance, "Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card cost when it was trashed.")

Unfortunately, I don't think it holds water.  Good observation, but the problem is that Round 2 of the TR does not specify that the card has to remain in play, just that the card had to have been the one selected for play.  In this case, TR selected a BoM-as-Feast, not just a BoM simply, and thus the effects of its Feastiness must be what happens during TR2.

I think TR selected an action card from your hand, which was most definitely BoM at that step, since it hasn't been (about to be) played yet.  At any rate, regardless of whether it selected BoM-as-Feast, that card is no longer BoM-as-Feast by the time TR2 rolls around.

(Obviously, Donald has prerogative to issue clarifications or errata whenever he feels, but I don't think the cards as written suggest the ruling as given for TR-BoM-Feast.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 06:03:46 pm
Yet the two entities who've programmed it, Doug Z. and funsockets, both have it working according to my ruling.

Code is law!

Since a higher percenage of all Dominion-play will be online soon, many people will refer to how the server works rather than look at an FAQ when they don't agree on how it should be when playing in meatspace, I think.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 06:03:57 pm
The reason why I think it should be TR-BoM is that TR says "Choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it twice."  When you choose BoM in your hand, it is still BoM; it hasn't transformed yet.
Impossible, I say, for a few reasons. Chiefly: TR-BoM is impossible. BoM will always transform into something else. It is impossible to ever choose BoM.

This is what I argued.  But the Procession ruling is strange then!

the thing is, if you haven't played BoM, what is it?  It's a BoM.  That's what it is for the purposes of Hunting Party, or TfB, or Wishing Well, etc.  So when you play TR, it has two steps.  The first step is to choose a card in your hand.  While it is in your hand, isn't it a BoM?



A way to resolve this:

You play TR and choose BoM, as per the first step.  Now you start the second step (play it twice) and TR goes:

- I am going to play BoM twice.
- BoM goes, "actually, I'm a Feast."
- TR says "whaaa.... OK then, I will play Feast twice."

And so it plays Feast twice.  Between the first and second play, BoM-Feast disappears into the trash and reverts back into BoM, but TR doesn't care anymore and doesn't see it revert.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltaire on August 15, 2012, 06:08:24 pm
The reason why I think it should be TR-BoM is that TR says "Choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it twice."  When you choose BoM in your hand, it is still BoM; it hasn't transformed yet.
Impossible, I say, for a few reasons. Chiefly: TR-BoM is impossible. BoM will always transform into something else. It is impossible to ever choose BoM.

This is what I argued.  But the Procession ruling is strange then!
I am thinking this answers that.
Probably because of order.  "Trash a card.  Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it."  In the first step, BoM moves into the trash and then turns back into BoM.  "it" still refers to the card you trashed, which at the time of the second step, is a BoM.  (Rather than, for instance, "Gain a card costing exactly $1 more than the trashed card cost when it was trashed.")
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:12:39 pm
The reason why I think it should be TR-BoM is that TR says "Choose an Action card in your hand.  Play it twice."  When you choose BoM in your hand, it is still BoM; it hasn't transformed yet.
Impossible, I say, for a few reasons. Chiefly: TR-BoM is impossible. BoM will always transform into something else. It is impossible to ever choose BoM.

This is what I argued.  But the Procession ruling is strange then!

the thing is, if you haven't played BoM, what is it?  It's a BoM.  That's what it is for the purposes of Hunting Party, or TfB, or Wishing Well, etc.  So when you play TR, it has two steps.  The first step is to choose a card in your hand.  While it is in your hand, isn't it a BoM?



A way to resolve this:

You play TR and choose BoM, as per the first step.  Now you start the second step (play it twice) and TR goes:

- I am going to play BoM twice.
- BoM goes, "actually, I'm a Feast."
- TR says "whaaa.... OK then, I will play Feast twice."

And so it plays Feast twice.  Between the first and second play, BoM-Feast disappears into the trash and reverts back into BoM, but TR doesn't care anymore and doesn't see it revert.

My issue here is: the word "it". For this post, it will be useful to have a way to refer to a class of cards, rather than a particular card. So "Feast" will refer to the class of all Feast cards, whereas "a Feast card" is just one particular Feast card.

On the Throne Room, you're essentially saying that "it" refers to Feast as a class of cards. So Throne Room is doing: choose a card, get its class (it's at this point that BoM transforms to a Feast), then play according to that class's rules twice. To me, this feels really unnatural given the wording of TR.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 06:13:14 pm
I think TR selected an action card from your hand, which was most definitely BoM at that step, since it hasn't been (about to be) played yet.  At any rate, regardless of whether it selected BoM-as-Feast, that card is no longer BoM-as-Feast by the time TR2 rolls around.

(Obviously, Donald has prerogative to issue clarifications or errata whenever he feels, but I don't think the cards as written suggest the ruling as given for TR-BoM-Feast.)

Yes, but you're Throne Rooming a BoM-as-Feast, not a BoM simply.  To "Throne Room" something is not simply to choose it with Throne Room, but to also play it with Throne Room.  To be "activated" by Throne Room means both chosen AND put in play, and as soon as you say "play," BoM is a Feast (or whatever).  You don't stop saying "play" until the Throne Room has run it's course.

====

Essentially:

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)

vs.

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)
Play the chosen card. (BoM-as-Feast)
Reevaluate the status of the chosen card.
Play the chosen card. (BoM)

====

Scenario 1 looks like Throne Room... simple and direct.
Scenario 2 adds in a lot more that isn't simply or directly on Throne Room.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:14:29 pm
I think TR selected an action card from your hand, which was most definitely BoM at that step, since it hasn't been (about to be) played yet.  At any rate, regardless of whether it selected BoM-as-Feast, that card is no longer BoM-as-Feast by the time TR2 rolls around.

(Obviously, Donald has prerogative to issue clarifications or errata whenever he feels, but I don't think the cards as written suggest the ruling as given for TR-BoM-Feast.)

Yes, but you're Throne Rooming a BoM-as-Feast, not a BoM simply.  To "Throne Room" something is not simply to choose it with Throne Room, but to also play it with Throne Room.  To be "activated" by Throne Room means both chosen AND put in play, and as soon as you say "play," BoM is a Feast (or whatever).  You don't stop saying "play" until the Throne Room has run it's course.

====

Essentially:

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)

vs.

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)
Play the chosen card. (BoM-as-Feast)
Reevaluate the status of the chosen card.
Play the chosen card. (BoM)

====

Scenario 1 looks like Throne Room... simple and direct.
Scenario 2 adds in a lot more that isn't simply or directly on Throne Room.
But with Scenario 1, that means that the wording "play it twice" and "do this twice: play it" mean different things. Which, IMO, is extremely non-intuitive.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 06:14:59 pm
My issue here is: the word "it". For this post, it will be useful to have a way to refer to a class of cards, rather than a particular card. So "Feast" will refer to the class of all Feast cards, whereas "a Feast card" is just one particular Feast card.

On the Throne Room, you're essentially saying that "it" refers to Feast as a class of cards. So Throne Room is doing: choose a card, get its class (it's at this point that BoM transforms to a Feast), then play according to that class's rules twice. To me, this feels really unnatural given the wording of TR.

I tend closer to thinking your way, but Donald made his ruling and I can mostly see it from that perspective too, which is why I am trying to understand it better from that side.  But I know what you're getting at!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:16:06 pm
My issue here is: the word "it". For this post, it will be useful to have a way to refer to a class of cards, rather than a particular card. So "Feast" will refer to the class of all Feast cards, whereas "a Feast card" is just one particular Feast card.

On the Throne Room, you're essentially saying that "it" refers to Feast as a class of cards. So Throne Room is doing: choose a card, get its class (it's at this point that BoM transforms to a Feast), then play according to that class's rules twice. To me, this feels really unnatural given the wording of TR.

I tend closer to thinking your way, but Donald made his ruling and I can mostly see it from that perspective too, which is why I am trying to understand it better from that side.  But I know what you're getting at!
Fair enough. I just don't mind being contrary if I think I might be right. :P
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 06:17:37 pm
My issue here is: the word "it". For this post, it will be useful to have a way to refer to a class of cards, rather than a particular card. So "Feast" will refer to the class of all Feast cards, whereas "a Feast card" is just one particular Feast card.

On the Throne Room, you're essentially saying that "it" refers to Feast as a class of cards. So Throne Room is doing: choose a card, get its class (it's at this point that BoM transforms to a Feast), then play according to that class's rules twice. To me, this feels really unnatural given the wording of TR.

I tend closer to thinking your way, but Donald made his ruling and I can mostly see it from that perspective too, which is why I am trying to understand it better from that side.  But I know what you're getting at!
Fair enough. I just don't mind being contrary if I think I might be right. :P

Same, but I am OK thinking about it the official way since I can see how could be right as well!  Since I don't think the ruling is definitely wrong, I'm not going to argue too much about it. :)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jsimantov on August 15, 2012, 06:20:40 pm
"Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice."

Throne Room thinks, "Okay, so the player has chosen this Action card, its name happens to be Band of Misfits (but I don't really care about that), so let's put the card into play and execute it....WHOA OMG SOMETHING WEIRD HAPPENED WHEN I PUT THE CARD INTO PLAY--BUT I DON'T CARE, I'LL JUST EXECUTE IT ANYWAY."

When you Throne Room (or King's Court) an action card, I don't see how Throne Room cares about the NAME of the card it plays twice; it cares about the actual physical card. It told you to choose a card. You did. So there's a card, which is a physical object in the world. The sequence of events is:

1. Throne Room puts the physical card you selected into play.
2. The when-played instructions on the physical card are executed in order.
3. Throne Room puts the physical card you selected into play a second time (although what actually happens is that the card is either already in play or Throne Room has lost track of it, so this fails).
4. The when-played instructions on the physical card are executed in order.

When you put BoM into play, it immediately turns into a different Action card from the Supply. For as long as it remains in play, it is that card. So obviously if you Throne Room a Band of Misfits card, and play that BoM card as a Village, the physical card will be a Village for both plays.

But this is muddy if the card leaves play during the first time it's played by Throne Room. If you Throne Room a BoM and choose for it to be Mining Village, then the BoM card is a Mining Village for the entire time it is in play. But hey, let's say you chose to trash that Mining Village on the first play. So now the physical card that was Throne Roomed is in the trash, and is no longer a Mining Village, it's a BoM!

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jamuspsi on August 15, 2012, 06:23:17 pm
Essentially:

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)

vs.

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)
Play the chosen card. (BoM-as-Feast)
Reevaluate the status of the chosen card.
Play the chosen card. (BoM)


Scenario 1 looks like Throne Room... simple and direct.
Scenario 2 adds in a lot more that isn't simply or directly on Throne Room.

Scenario 1 definitely acts more like a traditional throne room in terms of what it eventually does.  But that's why this is a weird interaction!  I think my issue is that there is no such thing as BoM-as-Feast.  It is one single card from your hand that goes through more than one identity.  Throne room does not say "Choose a card from your hand.  Play it, then play it again as the same card it was when you played it the first time."

Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:26:02 pm
Analogy: "Pick someone you know. Visit him at home today and ten years from now." If this person changes houses 5 years from now, would you in 10 years go to his old home to visit him?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 06:27:24 pm
How about this:

You play TR-BoM, choosing to make BoM a Feast.

TR plays it the first time.  It sees BoM as a Feast.  It is trashed and you gain some card, doesn't matter what it is.  BoM goes into the trash, losing its Feast identity.

TR now has to play "it" a second time, where "it" is a Feast that has become a BoM in the trash.  The thing is, TR doesn't know what's happening in the trash.  It doesn't know that Feast changed; it lost track of it.  As far as it knows, it is still a Feast.  So TR plays Feast a second time.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 15, 2012, 06:28:47 pm
Analogy: "Pick someone you know. Visit him at home today and ten years from now." If this person changes houses 5 years from now, would you in 10 years go to his old home to visit him?

But what does the home represent and what does the person represent?  I can't quite parse this analogy to make sense of either perspective.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 06:29:57 pm
Analogy: "Pick someone you know. Visit him at home today and ten years from now." If this person changes houses 5 years from now, would you in 10 years go to his old home to visit him?

I don't think that analogy helps you.

No, you visit the same person you visited 10 years ago.

Decoding the analogy, I see same person = same action being played, thus Feast again.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 06:30:54 pm
How about this:

You play TR-BoM, choosing to make BoM a Feast.

TR plays it the first time.  It sees BoM as a Feast.  It is trashed and you gain some card, doesn't matter what it is.  BoM goes into the trash, losing its Feast identity.

TR now has to play "it" a second time, where "it" is a Feast that has become a BoM in the trash.  The thing is, TR doesn't know what's happening in the trash.  It doesn't know that Feast changed; it lost track of it.  As far as it knows, it is still a Feast.  So TR plays Feast a second time.

That seems to me to be what DXV is saying.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:32:17 pm
Analogy: "Pick someone you know. Visit him at home today and ten years from now." If this person changes houses 5 years from now, would you in 10 years go to his old home to visit him?

But what does the home represent and what does the person represent?  I can't quite parse this analogy to make sense of either perspective.
It's a loose analogy, but the person represents the physical card, and the home represents the name of the card. The idea is that you would visit him (play the card) based on where his home is now (what the name of the card is now), not where his home was (which card it was) when you picked him (picked the card).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:36:02 pm
How about this:

You play TR-BoM, choosing to make BoM a Feast.

TR plays it the first time.  It sees BoM as a Feast.  It is trashed and you gain some card, doesn't matter what it is.  BoM goes into the trash, losing its Feast identity.

TR now has to play "it" a second time, where "it" is a Feast that has become a BoM in the trash.  The thing is, TR doesn't know what's happening in the trash.  It doesn't know that Feast changed; it lost track of it.  As far as it knows, it is still a Feast.  So TR plays Feast a second time.
Obviously we can't use the lose-track rule precisely, since we don't have the Dark Ages rulebook yet, but here's the relevant bible entry (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=78.0):
Quote
The "lose track" rule is this (don't hold me to this precise wording okay): If card A is doing stuff with card B, and something other than card A moves card B somewhere else, card A can no longer keep moving card B. It "loses track" of it.
To me, this seems pretty clear that losing track only applies to moving cards. It's also explained that this is really only because you might physically not know where the card is anymore (so you can't physically do it):
Quote
If you want to handle certain potential cards, you need this rule. A "don't lose track" rule doesn't cut it, because you could really lose track. Consider Throning "Shuffle this into your deck, then +2 Cards."
So you're perfectly able to know anything about the card you like, no matter where it is. You just can't be asked to move it somewhere, because maybe you don't know where it is anymore.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 06:36:42 pm
(Before I thought two rulings didn't agree that well. Now I try to adjust and see it in such a way that it does make sense.)

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.

Thinking algorithmically it's always best to take note of all the instructions on a card before starting to execute it. Just executing one line at a time might mean that we miss the last part if we have to burn the card at an earlier step (hypothetical example from Donald X. earlier). So playing a card entails copying it into temporary local storage and then executing orders from that copy line by line.

I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: LastFootnote on August 15, 2012, 06:41:58 pm
I'm still a little fuzzy on why Procession/Band of Misfits works the way it does. If Procession thinks it's playing a Village twice and knows nothing of Band of Misfits, why does it try to gain an Action card costing $6 rather than one costing $4?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 06:42:06 pm
(Before I thought two rulings didn't agree that well. Now I try to adjust and see it in such a way that it does make sense.)

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.

Thinking algorithmically it's always best to take note of all the instructions on a card before starting to execute it. Just executing one line at a time might mean that we miss the last part if we have to burn the card at an earlier step (hypothetical example from Donald X. earlier). So playing a card entails copying it into temporary local storage and then executing orders from that copy line by line.

I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.
This explanation is consistent (and is the only way I can justify the ruling). But... why should Throne Room copy the card rules into its memory? It doesn't indicate anywhere on the card or in its FAQ that it would do this. It also seems really complicated, because now TR is in charge of remembering everything about another card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: noon on August 15, 2012, 06:51:49 pm
Fun thing to do Reread the thread and think "Buy only Money" when you see BoM

BOBoMinator achievement: Buy Only Band of Misfits (no other actions). Probably a pretty decent strategy sometimes.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 06:52:24 pm
This explanation is consistent (and is the only way I can justify the ruling). But... why should Throne Room copy the card rules into its memory?

I meant that copying a card into memory is part of what you always do implicitly when playing a card (because of all that burning, if nothing else). So when TR (or KC, Procession, Golem) instructs you to play a card you also do that.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 06:56:13 pm
I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.

Is that consistent with how Throne Room interacts with Conspirator?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 07:00:05 pm
BOBoMinator achievement: Buy Only Band of Misfits (no other actions). Probably a pretty decent strategy sometimes.

I doubt it. If there's cards under $5 worth playing, then it's worth buying at least some of them, I think.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 07:02:36 pm
Is that consistent with how Throne Room interacts with Conspirator?

I think so. Why not? "Play that card twice" sets everything up for executing the card, then does that two times, each time increasing the number of actions played by one.

I find Crossroads a bit more problematic for my view, because that means that the whole card should be "copied" (or at least the name as well, and not only the play instructions).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 07:10:45 pm
Is that consistent with how Throne Room interacts with Conspirator?

I think so. Why not? "Play that card twice" sets everything up for executing the card, then does that two times, each time increasing the number of actions played by one.

I find Crossroads a bit more problematic for my view, because that means that the whole card should be "copied" (or at least the name as well, and not only the play instructions).

I don't know... if Conspirator fits, then Crossroads fits.

Conspirator fits because it is counting actions played.  TR+Consp. yields +2 coin, then +1 card +1 action +2 coin.

Crossroads fits because it, too, is counting actions played (just the one kind of action "Crossroads" actually).  TR+Crossroads yields 3 actions and +[V0] cards, then +[V1] cards.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 15, 2012, 07:20:34 pm
But with Scenario 1, that means that the wording "play it twice" and "do this twice: play it" mean different things. Which, IMO, is extremely non-intuitive.

There is precedent for these two phrases having different meaning in Dominion, though, since some cards (Steward) allow you to trash two cards, whereas Remake has "Do this twice:..."

The mental model of the Throne Room learning the card text of something else, then executing it twice, explains how TR-Feast works (and TR with any card that trashes itself). But this does not seem to be consistent with Donald X's ruling on Procession being played on BoM-as-Fortress. That ruling is plainly wrong.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: fencingmonkey on August 15, 2012, 07:49:18 pm
Let me start by saying that I don't think this particular situation is probably going to come up a lot, but it's a good discussion to have nonetheless.

I think a lot of the issue comes from assuming that TR/BoM/Feast can be resolved by examining TR/BoM and BoM/Feast and then combining them, and I don't think that's correct. We can see that if we Throne Room BoM with any card that doesn't trash itself (Bishop, say) that's exactly the same as TRing a Bishop. No problem, it's clear from the card wording. We can also see from using BoM on Feast that it stops being a Feast as soon as we trash it. But in the specific case of Tr/BoM/Feast I think it works a little bit differently...

TR: we play 1 card twice. Note that it's "THIS card" and not "THIS BoM" which we can see from the usual TR/BoM interaction. We also fully resolve the first play before we do anything on the second play, standard TR stuff.
BoM: resolving this card fully means that it becomes Feast for as long as it's in play.
Feast: resolving this card fully means that BoM is no longer in play, which means it's back to BoM again. Right? So when we start to resolve the second part of TR... remember, we're not resolving "THIS BoM" or even "THIS BoM which is now exactly the same as Feast" but "THIS card" which happens, at the time we resolve it, to be BoM again. It's wonky, but TR/Feast has always been kind of wonky, so this just amplifies that.

My takeaway is that, in the unlikely event that you drew TR/BoM, had Feast AND ANOTHER <$5 card on the board that you wanted to play instead of Feast... you probably could. But if it gets ruled differently I'll play that way. I still don't think I understand all of the Trader corner cases so we can just add on to that pile.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Razzishi on August 15, 2012, 07:51:29 pm
edit: never mind.  I probably didn't actually know what I was talking about.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: dondon151 on August 15, 2012, 07:58:13 pm
I don't claim to know the ruling here well or anything, but in my mind, at least, to make sense of all of these interactions with Band of Misfits, it makes sense to draw a distinction between when a card enters play vs. when it is played, and when it leaves play vs. when it is discarded/trashed.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 07:59:39 pm
BOBoMinator achievement: Buy Only Band of Misfits (no other actions). Probably a pretty decent strategy sometimes.

I doubt it. If there's cards under $5 worth playing, then it's worth buying at least some of them, I think.

Not really.  Band of Misfits would be able to be any of the cards you needed.  The only problem is there's only 10 of them, and they cost $5.  University to the rescue!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 08:07:48 pm
The mental model of the Throne Room learning the card text of something else, then executing it twice, explains how TR-Feast works (and TR with any card that trashes itself). But this does not seem to be consistent with Donald X's ruling on Procession being played on BoM-as-Fortress. That ruling is plainly wrong.
Well it will be hard to talk me out of it, since it's in the rulebook.

I checked and it was actually Doug Z. who argued for that ruling. The idea is that Band of Misfits has left play and so it stopped being Fortress. The madness has ended; at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash and costs $5. It had a different cost when we trashed it, but there we are asking for the cost when it's in the trash.

This is a different question from Throne Room-BoM-Feast, which really gets into, what do all of these words on Throne Room mean. To be a playable card game, Throne Room cannot be computer code, and it isn't. Normally this doesn't matter, but in some cases we end up saying, wait, what does "it" mean. The main set rulebook could be clearer on what "play" means, but you have to be able to say "it" sometimes.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 15, 2012, 08:15:32 pm
The mental model of the Throne Room learning the card text of something else, then executing it twice, explains how TR-Feast works (and TR with any card that trashes itself). But this does not seem to be consistent with Donald X's ruling on Procession being played on BoM-as-Fortress. That ruling is plainly wrong.
Well it will be hard to talk me out of it, since it's in the rulebook.

I checked and it was actually Doug Z. who argued for that ruling. The idea is that Band of Misfits has left play and so it stopped being Fortress. The madness has ended; at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash and costs $5. It had a different cost when we trashed it, but there we are asking for the cost when it's in the trash.

This is a different question from Throne Room-BoM-Feast, which really gets into, what do all of these words on Throne Room mean. To be a playable card game, Throne Room cannot be computer code, and it isn't. Normally this doesn't matter, but in some cases we end up saying, wait, what does "it" mean. The main set rulebook could be clearer on what "play" means, but you have to be able to say "it" sometimes.

Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it; I assumed that to avoid having to avoid an analogue of the lose-track rule come into effect, it'd be easier to have the Procession determine the cost at the time at which the card was played, which is consistent with TR just reading the card all at once, and then playing that text twice.

Edit in case the above comes off as presumptuous: I'm actually glad the rules are more complicated, since I'm that sort of insufferable twerp who gets off on this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Razzishi on August 15, 2012, 08:21:48 pm
But with Scenario 1, that means that the wording "play it twice" and "do this twice: play it" mean different things. Which, IMO, is extremely non-intuitive.

There is precedent for these two phrases having different meaning in Dominion, though, since some cards (Steward) allow you to trash two cards, whereas Remake has "Do this twice:..."

The mental model of the Throne Room learning the card text of something else, then executing it twice, explains how TR-Feast works (and TR with any card that trashes itself). But this does not seem to be consistent with Donald X's ruling on Procession being played on BoM-as-Fortress. That ruling is plainly wrong.

So I know what I'm talking about next time I try to write a post on the topic of Procession-Band of Misfits-Fortress, what is the ruling?

edit: Ok, I think I'm piecing this together, but it's certainly hard to find things without a central depository of knowledge.  Well, less than a day left until we get such a thing.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 15, 2012, 08:27:53 pm
But with Scenario 1, that means that the wording "play it twice" and "do this twice: play it" mean different things. Which, IMO, is extremely non-intuitive.

There is precedent for these two phrases having different meaning in Dominion, though, since some cards (Steward) allow you to trash two cards, whereas Remake has "Do this twice:..."

The mental model of the Throne Room learning the card text of something else, then executing it twice, explains how TR-Feast works (and TR with any card that trashes itself). But this does not seem to be consistent with Donald X's ruling on Procession being played on BoM-as-Fortress. That ruling is plainly wrong.

So I know what I'm talking about next time I try to write a post on the topic of Procession-Band of Misfits-Fortress, what is the ruling?

The Procession plays the BoM as a Fortress twice, then tries to trash it, but it's a Fortress so it gets sent back to hand. Then the Procession tries to gain a card costing $1 more than the card it played, which is now a BoM in hand, so it gains a card costing $6 (if such is to be gained).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 08:30:01 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: dondon151 on August 15, 2012, 09:15:15 pm
How can cards possibly know anything :o
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 09:21:56 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 09:30:44 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 09:37:48 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Voltgloss on August 15, 2012, 09:48:43 pm
Say you play BoM-as-Hermit.  Then don't buy anything that turn.  Do you trash BoM?  Do you get a Madman?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 15, 2012, 09:50:20 pm
Say you play BoM-as-Hermit.  Then don't buy anything that turn.  Do you trash BoM?  Do you get a Madman?

Yes, and yes.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: zahlman on August 15, 2012, 09:51:17 pm
How can cards possibly know anything :o

Through the miracle of object-oriented programming, I can only assume. ;p
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 09:53:45 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?
The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:
Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 09:58:58 pm
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?
The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:
Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.

Ah, that infamous "would."
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Qvist on August 16, 2012, 03:30:54 am
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

But Fortress (or Band of Misfits pretending to be Fortress) does not end up in the trash pile.  Surely that must confuse Procession.
And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Procession would be unable to move Fortress somewhere else at that point though.

So if I Ironworks an Estate, and reveal Trader to gain a Silver instead, then I SHOULD draw 1 card, is what you're saying?
The Ironworks/Trader interaction is not related to the lose-track rule. It was explained earlier in this thread:
Ironworks wants to know something about the card it gained. It didn't gain a card, so there is no such information. The fact that there is a card it *would* have gained is irrelevant.

Ah, that infamous "would."

Who let the blue dogs out? Would, would, would.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: e2718 on August 16, 2012, 06:42:01 am
If Feast said "burn this card, gain a card costing up to $5," and you Throned it, would you expect to gain two cards? I would like to say I feel like most people would, but actually "what happens when I Throne a Feast" used to be the most common rules question I was asked. Anyway I think I want you to still gain the second card there.

I think this post is the fundamental disagreement between the "Feast + ?" and "2xFeast" crowds regarding TR + BoM[Feast]. I also think the post is incorrect in the sense that a person undertaking a reasonable interpretation of the rules to date would not expect to gain two cards in this case.

The word "play" in throne room can be reasonably defined as "move this card from your hand to the play area. execute all text on it (the aforementioned card)," as that's what you do when you play an action normally. The second time Throne Room tries to "play" a card, it (the Throne Room) fails to move the card from the hand (it's already in the play area or somewhere else) but still executes text again. This is consistent with all previous interactions with released expansions (the Feast is executed again from the trash, so it gets you another card).

With that definition in hand, let's see what the interaction of Throne Room with BurnFeast is. To be clear, suppose "burning the card" means that there is no longer text on it (as it is now a pile of ashes). Now, when Throne Room tries to execute all text on the card the second time, it's been burnt, so we fail to do so, and we fail to gain our second card costing less than or equal to (5).

So let's analyze how this plays out with BoM. The text on BoM, as written, is equivalent to "When this enters play, replace all properties of it (name, cost, image*, artist*, type, text, expansion marker symbol*) with those of a card in the supply, but add 'When this card leaves play, it becomes a Band of Misfits**' to the text." Here, this interpretation is reasonable because that is exactly what this card does (becomes another one until it leaves play).

The current text of the cards, therefore, leads us to conclude that: first, TR + BoM[Smithy] leads us to drawing 6 cards (you choose Smithy when the card is first played, replacing its text with "+3 Cards; When this card leaves play, it becomes a Band of Misfits", which is executed twice successfully), and secondly, TR + BoM[Feast] choosing what target the second invocation of BoM has† as opposed to what TR + Feast would imply.

For the second half of your post -- "I think I want you to still gain the second card there" -- it's your game, and with it comes your design decisions. But I don't agree that this "rules interpretation" is something that is clear from previous ones and the text of the cards. If your interpretation is to survive, the text of Throne Room should be errata'd to be something that reflects your wish, as the only way I can see BurnFeast working out the way you claim it does is with some sort of memory attached to Throne Room (as written, "it" clearly refers to the 'card' that was chosen, not 'the text of the card when Throne Room resolves'). Contradictions with reasonable interpretations diminish gameplay experience -- ex falso quodlibet comes to mind for a reason why we'd want to minimize those.

*No revealed cards rely on these properties. But clearly they are copied anyway.
**Meaning, of course, those earlier mentioned properties are copied back onto the card from BoM
†The order of events that would happen is

1) Throne room is played with BoM as a target
2) BoM is played the first time, but its "Play this as if" text replaces the text on it with "Trash this card. Gain a card costing up to (5). When this card leaves play, it reverts to a BoM"
3) Text is executed. The BoM is trashed, you gain a card costing up to (5), and the text on it reverts to a BoM as it has left play.
4) Throne room plays the physical BoM card again. It fails to be removed from hand, but it gets its text executed. Its "play this as if" text triggers again, allowing the player to choose a second card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: mborda on August 16, 2012, 09:30:58 am
I think TR selected an action card from your hand, which was most definitely BoM at that step, since it hasn't been (about to be) played yet.  At any rate, regardless of whether it selected BoM-as-Feast, that card is no longer BoM-as-Feast by the time TR2 rolls around.

(Obviously, Donald has prerogative to issue clarifications or errata whenever he feels, but I don't think the cards as written suggest the ruling as given for TR-BoM-Feast.)

Yes, but you're Throne Rooming a BoM-as-Feast, not a BoM simply.  To "Throne Room" something is not simply to choose it with Throne Room, but to also play it with Throne Room.  To be "activated" by Throne Room means both chosen AND put in play, and as soon as you say "play," BoM is a Feast (or whatever).  You don't stop saying "play" until the Throne Room has run it's course.

====

Essentially:

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)

vs.

Play Throne Room.
Choose a card.  (What card?  BoM.)
Play that card twice.  (What card? BoM-as-Feast.)
Play the chosen card. (BoM-as-Feast)
Reevaluate the status of the chosen card.
Play the chosen card. (BoM)

====

Scenario 1 looks like Throne Room... simple and direct.
Scenario 2 adds in a lot more that isn't simply or directly on Throne Room.

I totally agree with you.

I believe the problem is that TR's "Play it twice." does not exactly mean "Play it. Play it." (though in most cases it is just the same).

IMHO "Play it twice" means that the evaluation of the card is just made at the beginning, there's no middle point to reevaluate the state of the card.

And also I think this is the most intuitive way to play it. I play with a lot of people that are no experienced gamers (so they tend to use their intuition a lot more than us that try to think everything in a more complicated "combo" way), and when they play TR or KC, they just look at the card at the beginning...
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 09:49:53 am
If the card imitates a Duration card (eg. Caravan), and in the interceding turn the last copy of that card is taken from the supply, what happens? Do you go ahead and play out the action or does the Band of Misfits forget what it's supposed to be doing?

On another note, since the card has to be in the supply, would a good solution to the tracking be to grab the card and place it on top of a sideways Band of Misfits? The issue would be remembering that the card you're using is still in the supply so you can gain it and the pile isn't empty. Maybe the randomisers can be used for this purpose, although then you get problems if you want to play multiples of the same card with Bands of Misfits.

Edit: I was also going to ask if it stopped any "while this is in play" effects, but Highway and Haggler cost the same as Band of Misfits, Goons costs more, Princess isn't in the supply and the rest are treasures. Nicely done Mr Vaccarino.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 16, 2012, 10:13:06 am
Edit: I was also going to ask if it stopped any "while this is in play" effects, but Highway and Haggler cost the same as Band of Misfits, Goons costs more, Princess isn't in the supply and the rest are treasures. Nicely done Mr Vaccarino.

Lighthouse has a "when in play" effect. And yes, certainly it does, since Band of Misfits acts as the target card while it is in play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 10:25:32 am
The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 16, 2012, 10:37:03 am
The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.

I think I don't understand what you mean by this.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 10:47:27 am
The issue is the target card doesn't exist any more as far as the Band of Misfits is concerned, which might be a problem.

I think I don't understand what you mean by this.

You play a Band of Misfits as a Lighthouse, then buy the last Lighthouse from the supply, emptying the pile. The band of misfits is therefore no longer imitating a card in the supply (and you wouldn't be allowed to play it as a Lighthouse again). Does that retroactively stop the "Lighthouse"s protection from attacks? Do you still get +$1 next turn?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Grujah on August 16, 2012, 10:50:37 am
No. When you play Band of Misfits, it turns into a card that is in supply and stays that card while it is in play. If the conditions change meanwhile, it doesn't matter; BoM only checks the conditions upon entering the play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Grujah on August 16, 2012, 10:50:50 am
This starts getting all Magic-y now.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Avin on August 16, 2012, 11:13:17 am
You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:

  • I put the Throne Room card in play. "I play a Throne Room!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to choose an Action in my hand and play it twice. I'll do that! Let's play that Smithy from my hand! Twice!

In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play a Band of Misfits!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to play it as another Action in the supply. I'll do that! Let's play it as a Smithy!

So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play this as a Smithy!" What do I do now? Oho, I draw three cards. Okay.

Right?

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 16, 2012, 11:15:11 am

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.

Forced to play it (Throne Room, Golem).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 16, 2012, 11:16:11 am
You know what? I think I've identified the source of the confusion here between my interpretation of the card and your intention for it (the same confusion has manifested both in this question and in my Conspirator question).

I'm interpreting "Play this as if it were..." as the on-play instructions for the card, similar to Throne Room's. So for instance when you play a Throne Room, here's what happens:

  • I put the Throne Room card in play. "I play a Throne Room!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to choose an Action in my hand and play it twice. I'll do that! Let's play that Smithy from my hand! Twice!

In other words, playing the Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, playing the Throne Room itself. In the same way, I was visualizing Band of Misfits as this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play a Band of Misfits!" What do I do now? I read the instructions on the card. Oho, it tells me to play it as another Action in the supply. I'll do that! Let's play it as a Smithy!

So in this reading, playing the Band of Misfits as a Smithy is a separate event from, and a consequence of, putting the Band of Misfits in play to begin with. But that's not the interpretation I infer that you're intending for the card text. What you're implying, if I follow, is that "Play this as if it were..." isn't instructions to execute as a result of playing the card, the way Throne Room's text is; it's instructions on what playing the card actually consists of. So the interpretation you're telling me is this:

  • I put the Band of Misfits card in play. "I play this as a Smithy!" What do I do now? Oho, I draw three cards. Okay.

Right?

If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

(either the kingdom has only $5 or above cards in it, or the only cards costing less than $5 are treasure/victory cards, or all cards costing less than $5 have been emptied already)

Note that if you have Horn of Plenty, being allowed to play a Band of Misfits without having it imitate another card can make a difference in how much the HoP is worth. I'm sure there are other reasons people can come up with for wanting to play a Band of Misfits even if it's not possible to imitate another card.
No. You can play BoM, and you do as much as you can, which.... in this case is nothing. So it stays in play, having done nothing.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: rinkworks on August 16, 2012, 11:16:25 am
If this interpretation is correct, and it sounds like it is, then what happens if there are no action cards in the supply that cost less than $5? Does that mean that you can actually NOT play a Band of Misfits, making it essentially a dead $5 card in your deck?

My guess is that you can still play it, because the fact that it's an Action card means you're allowed to play it during your Action phase if you have Actions left.  But in the spirit of "do as much as you can," you wind up not being able to do anything with it, and so it just doesn't do anything when played.  Again, that's just a guess.

But it's kind of got to be playable, just because Golem might force you to.

--

Edit: NINJAED!  Wow, it's like everybody is constantly refreshing this subforum or something.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 16, 2012, 11:19:35 am
No. You can play BoM, and you do as much as you can, which.... in this case is nothing. So it stays in play, having done nothing.

If I have a Village and a BoM-as-Village in play, and then I play my HoP, it is worth 2.

If I have a Village and a BoM in play (due to the phenomenon described above), and then I play my HoP, it is worth 3.

Sound correct?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 16, 2012, 12:10:42 pm
I feel like the wording "This is that card until it leaves play" is a little weird; I would have expected "This is a copy of that card until it leaves play." It's obviously not that card—if I play BoM as a Smithy, and then someone wants to gain a Smithy from the supply, they don't gain my BoM. This isn't a mistake anyone would ever make in playing, of course; it's just different phrasing than I would have expected.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Schlippy on August 16, 2012, 12:43:18 pm
I am kind of disappointed that you can not possibly play a BoM like it was a BoM. :>
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 16, 2012, 12:50:02 pm
I am kind of disappointed that you can not possibly play a BoM like it was a BoM. :>

Yeah, but then it could be a never-ending action. And there's this:

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/25010365.jpg)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 16, 2012, 12:50:46 pm
Band of Misfits : Border Village :: Throne Room : Talisman?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 01:16:03 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 16, 2012, 01:32:12 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).

The card (in the case of BoM-as-Fortress) is somewhere it isn't meant to be (viz. in hand, not in the trash), but that's ok, because the lose-track rule applies only to moving cards, not reading them.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 16, 2012, 01:34:53 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 01:35:57 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).

The card (in the case of BoM-as-Fortress) is somewhere it isn't meant to be (viz. in hand, not in the trash), but that's ok, because the lose-track rule applies only to moving cards, not reading them.

There's an understanding between the trasher and the Fortress that it will end up in the players hand rather than the trash pile when it's trashed.

I've found that personifying cards is the best way to understand the lose track rule.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 01:44:49 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
(2) is obviously correct, but the real question is whether the instructions are "loaded up" each time the card is played, or only once for TR/KC. The way TR is worded, it seems to me that "play it" should happen twice, so the instructions are loaded twice, because that is consistent with how cards are normally played.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 16, 2012, 01:47:17 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).

The card (in the case of BoM-as-Fortress) is somewhere it isn't meant to be (viz. in hand, not in the trash), but that's ok, because the lose-track rule applies only to moving cards, not reading them.

There's an understanding between the trasher and the Fortress that it will end up in the players hand rather than the trash pile when it's trashed.

I've found that personifying cards is the best way to understand the lose track rule.

This is not compatible with Donald's ruling earlier in this thread that Procession would fail if it tried to move the Fortress (instead of gaining a card costing $1 more).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: NoMoreFun on August 16, 2012, 02:01:21 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).

The card (in the case of BoM-as-Fortress) is somewhere it isn't meant to be (viz. in hand, not in the trash), but that's ok, because the lose-track rule applies only to moving cards, not reading them.

There's an understanding between the trasher and the Fortress that it will end up in the players hand rather than the trash pile when it's trashed.

I've found that personifying cards is the best way to understand the lose track rule.

This is not compatible with Donald's ruling earlier in this thread that Procession would fail if it tried to move the Fortress (instead of gaining a card costing $1 more).

It sees the trashed card exactly where it knows it's supposed to be, and gains a card costing $1 more than it... right?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 16, 2012, 02:08:57 pm
The procession ruling makes sense to me. It plays the action as seen, and trashes the card it sees (triggering the when trash effects of the card it sees), but when it's in the trash (or in your hand in the case of a fortress impersonation), it's no longer in play, so it's back to being a band of thieves. So when the procession looks to the card that it "trashed", it sees the band of thieves, and thus gains a $6 action. The lose track rule doesn't apply because the card is not anywhere it isn't meant to be; it just has a different identity.

The thing I like most is it should work out better for procession, but since most boards don't have a $6 action, it usually means you'll trash your band of misfits and gain nothing. On boards with Fortress and $6 action though, it will be truly devastating (gain as many $6 actions as you have processions, and I'm sure there's some watchtower shenanigans to make it even more ridiculous).

The card (in the case of BoM-as-Fortress) is somewhere it isn't meant to be (viz. in hand, not in the trash), but that's ok, because the lose-track rule applies only to moving cards, not reading them.

There's an understanding between the trasher and the Fortress that it will end up in the players hand rather than the trash pile when it's trashed.

I've found that personifying cards is the best way to understand the lose track rule.

This is not compatible with Donald's ruling earlier in this thread that Procession would fail if it tried to move the Fortress (instead of gaining a card costing $1 more).

It sees the trashed card exactly where it knows it's supposed to be, and gains a card costing $1 more than it... right?

Whatever it does, it would fail if instead of saying 'gain a card costing $1 more', Procession said 'return it to the supply'. So for some purposes, card A (here Procession) is capable of knowing where card B (here Fortress) is, even if card B was moved to that location by an ability not on card A, but for the purposes of card movement, a movement of card B prompted by an ability not on card A causes card A to lose track of card B and not to be able to move it any further.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 16, 2012, 02:35:29 pm
A 10 page thread regarding the ruling on how a card works. Craziness.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: mischiefmaker on August 16, 2012, 04:27:45 pm
If I have a BoM and a Cultist in hand, I can play BoM-as-a-Cultist and then Cultist, but not the other way around, right?

Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 16, 2012, 04:38:13 pm
[edit]Right, what mischiefmaker said[/edit]
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 04:40:17 pm
If I have a BoM and a Cultist in hand, I can play BoM-as-a-Cultist and then Cultist, but not the other way around, right?
Cultist is $5, so you can't BoM it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Grujah on August 16, 2012, 05:04:49 pm
Can BoM copy Knight Martin if he is on top of the Knight Pile?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: mnavratil on August 16, 2012, 05:05:40 pm
I'd imagine so! Good interaction there.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 16, 2012, 05:16:43 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
(2) is obviously correct, but the real question is whether the instructions are "loaded up" each time the card is played, or only once for TR/KC. The way TR is worded, it seems to me that "play it" should happen twice, so the instructions are loaded twice, because that is consistent with how cards are normally played.

If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then TR-Feast should only provide one card.  Once the feast is trashed, how could it be "loaded up" again?  Or to use Donald's more extreme burn-feast example, that would definitely only provide one card.

I agree that this could be a legitimate way to interpret the wording on the card, but there is already a clear ruling on TR-Feast: you get two cards.  Since this is the case, I don't think you should "load up" the feast instructions in two separate steps -- all of the "loading" occurs when you play the TR and select the feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 05:28:26 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
(2) is obviously correct, but the real question is whether the instructions are "loaded up" each time the card is played, or only once for TR/KC. The way TR is worded, it seems to me that "play it" should happen twice, so the instructions are loaded twice, because that is consistent with how cards are normally played.

If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then TR-Feast should only provide one card.  Once the feast is trashed, how could it be "loaded up" again?  Or to use Donald's more extreme burn-feast example, that would definitely only provide one card.

I agree that this could be a legitimate way to interpret the wording on the card, but there is already a clear ruling on TR-Feast: you get two cards.  Since this is the case, I don't think you should "load up" the feast instructions in two separate steps -- all of the "loading" occurs when you play the TR and select the feast.
The physical location/condition of a card is not an obstacle to reading its data. Throne Room has no problem reading a Feast card's data, no matter where the physical card may be. The "lose track" rule only applies when you try to move the card. As Donald X posted earlier in the thread:
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Edit: Also, I don't see why the physical condition of the card (including possibly being burned to ashes) should prevent information-getting, either. In some sense, the card is still "trying" to show you the information, but it's having a harder time than usual.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 16, 2012, 05:36:28 pm
I believe engineer's suggestion is that TR does not "read the cards data" the second time.  That is, it does not have a problem reading it whatever its location, because it doesn't have to -- it loaded it up for the first play and is reusing that data.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 05:41:57 pm
I believe engineer's suggestion is that TR does not "read the cards data" the second time.  That is, it does not have a problem reading it whatever its location, because it doesn't have to -- it loaded it up for the first play and is reusing that data.
Yeah, I understand that much, but I thought he was also saying that if Throne Room had to read twice, then the current TR-Feast behaviour wouldn't be possible. But I think that's wrong. TR-Feast would work the same way whether TR reads once or twice.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: agrajag on August 16, 2012, 07:55:47 pm
Here's how I see it:

Both Procession and Throne Room refer to picking an "Action card" and both later use "it".

Given Donald's earlier ruling, for Procession "it" clearly refers to the physical card itself and not the action that was played. If "it" referred to the action and not to the physical card, then you wouldn't gain a card costing $6 when using BoM because Procession would have instead remembered that the action you played costed less than $5. So clearly "it" means the the card.

Therefore it would make sense to assume that the "it" on Throne Room also refers to the physical card. However the difference is here that Throne Room only checks what the card ("it") is once, whereas Procession checks several times. So at the time that Throne Room checks what the card is (the point at which you read the word "it") if the card is BoM Throne Room sees whatever BoM is pretending to be. Later on, if BoM self-trashed when it was played, it might no longer be the same card anymore (since it has left play), but Throne Room does not check again, it just assumes it is still the same card.

I think the answer would be different if Throne Room read "Pick an Action Card. Play it. Play it again." In that case, Throne Room would have checked what the card was a second time after it had been played. But as written it does not (which is a good thing, because otherwise BoM might get "stuck" as a different card, having been played but never actually entering the play area and thus never leaving play).

Edit: As a side note, I think BoM reverting to itself "when not in play" as opposed to "when leaving play" might have been safer and more clear from a rules perspective, but I don't think it actually matters in this case.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 16, 2012, 08:06:39 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
(2) is obviously correct, but the real question is whether the instructions are "loaded up" each time the card is played, or only once for TR/KC. The way TR is worded, it seems to me that "play it" should happen twice, so the instructions are loaded twice, because that is consistent with how cards are normally played.

If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then TR-Feast should only provide one card.  Once the feast is trashed, how could it be "loaded up" again?  Or to use Donald's more extreme burn-feast example, that would definitely only provide one card.

I agree that this could be a legitimate way to interpret the wording on the card, but there is already a clear ruling on TR-Feast: you get two cards.  Since this is the case, I don't think you should "load up" the feast instructions in two separate steps -- all of the "loading" occurs when you play the TR and select the feast.
The physical location/condition of a card is not an obstacle to reading its data. Throne Room has no problem reading a Feast card's data, no matter where the physical card may be. The "lose track" rule only applies when you try to move the card. As Donald X posted earlier in the thread:
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Edit: Also, I don't see why the physical condition of the card (including possibly being burned to ashes) should prevent information-getting, either. In some sense, the card is still "trying" to show you the information, but it's having a harder time than usual.

Either I'm a bit confused about something or Donald X. is, because as far as I can tell, the Procession did not put the BoM in hand, it tried to put it in the trash, and the BoM (as Fortress) put itself in hand. But maybe that's really the Procession putting the BoM in hand.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 16, 2012, 08:08:41 pm
I believe I have a much simpler question that will shed some light on the TR-BoM[Feast] issue:

Why do you gain a card when you play Feast?

There are two possible answers:

(1) I trash the feast, then I read the second instruction on the card, and gain a $5.  In other words, the feast can still dictate my activity from the trash.

(2) I read all the instructions on the Feast, and then I perform them one by one (as much as possible), regardless of the fate of the card itself.

The answer to this question is crucial, and all current rulings lead toward choosing (2) as the proper interpretation. 

If I accept (1) as my answer, then a BoM can never truly be a feast in the first place.  Once I follow the first instruction on the BoM, it is in the trash, where it is no longer a Feast, so I don't gain a card.

Donald's "burn-feast" example strongly implies that he intends (2) to be the correct answer.  This means that the instructions on the feast must be "loaded up" into the gamespace and executed to the extent possible, no matter the fate of the card.  In this case, the TR works the same way: pick a card, "load up" its instructions, execute them twice to the extent possible.  This is why TR-Feast gets you two cards, even though the feast is gone after the first play.  This would also explain why the TR-BoM[Feast] works exactly the same as TR-Feast: once the TR is played and the other action is chosen, the fate of that other action card is irrelevant to the execution of the game activities.

Think of it this way: when playing just a feast, the fact that it ends up in the trash after the first step is irrelevant, because it already gave you its instructions.  When playing a TR-BoM[Feast], you read the feast instructions and execute them twice to the extent possible.  The changing identity of the BoM once it hits the trash has no effect on this execution.

To everybody who mentions their confusion about the TR having "memory": it has nothing to do with TR.  The game itself has memory, and it always has.  The game has to have this memory in order to execute a simple Feast on its own.  The TR just manipulates the game memory -- it doesn't create its own.
(2) is obviously correct, but the real question is whether the instructions are "loaded up" each time the card is played, or only once for TR/KC. The way TR is worded, it seems to me that "play it" should happen twice, so the instructions are loaded twice, because that is consistent with how cards are normally played.

If we follow your argument to its logical conclusion, then TR-Feast should only provide one card.  Once the feast is trashed, how could it be "loaded up" again?  Or to use Donald's more extreme burn-feast example, that would definitely only provide one card.

I agree that this could be a legitimate way to interpret the wording on the card, but there is already a clear ruling on TR-Feast: you get two cards.  Since this is the case, I don't think you should "load up" the feast instructions in two separate steps -- all of the "loading" occurs when you play the TR and select the feast.
The physical location/condition of a card is not an obstacle to reading its data. Throne Room has no problem reading a Feast card's data, no matter where the physical card may be. The "lose track" rule only applies when you try to move the card. As Donald X posted earlier in the thread:
Fair enough, but it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played in order to determine its cost, even though it tried to trash it;
It put it there! "Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.

Edit: Also, I don't see why the physical condition of the card (including possibly being burned to ashes) should prevent information-getting, either. In some sense, the card is still "trying" to show you the information, but it's having a harder time than usual.

Either I'm a bit confused about something or Donald X. is, because as far as I can tell, the Procession did not put the BoM in hand, it tried to put it in the trash, and the BoM (as Fortress) put itself in hand. But maybe that's really the Procession putting the BoM in hand.

The BoM/Fortress put itself in hand. But the Lose Track rule doesn't apply because Procession isn't trying to move it anywhere else from there.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 16, 2012, 08:15:59 pm
Either I'm a bit confused about something or Donald X. is, because as far as I can tell, the Procession did not put the BoM in hand, it tried to put it in the trash, and the BoM (as Fortress) put itself in hand. But maybe that's really the Procession putting the BoM in hand.
The bit I was replying to wasn't specific to Fortress - "it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played." When you Procession a card, you play it twice, then trash it. If it mattered (which it doesn't), Procession "knows" where that card is now, because Procession put it in the trash. (This is not the case for Fortress - Procession "loses track" of Fortress since Fortress moves itself and Procession only tracks Procession moving cards).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 08:18:20 pm
Either I'm a bit confused about something or Donald X. is, because as far as I can tell, the Procession did not put the BoM in hand, it tried to put it in the trash, and the BoM (as Fortress) put itself in hand. But maybe that's really the Procession putting the BoM in hand.
The bit I was replying to wasn't specific to Fortress - "it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played." When you Procession a card, you play it twice, then trash it. If it mattered (which it doesn't), Procession "knows" where that card is now, because Procession put it in the trash. (This is not the case for Fortress - Procession "loses track" of Fortress since Fortress moves itself and Procession only tracks Procession moving cards).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but although it doesn't matter that Procession knows where the target card goes after the target card is trashed, it does matter that Procession knows where the target card is after it has been moved from hand to play. (Which it does, because Procession put it there.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 16, 2012, 08:26:17 pm
Either I'm a bit confused about something or Donald X. is, because as far as I can tell, the Procession did not put the BoM in hand, it tried to put it in the trash, and the BoM (as Fortress) put itself in hand. But maybe that's really the Procession putting the BoM in hand.
The bit I was replying to wasn't specific to Fortress - "it is surprising to me that the Procession knows where to look for the card it played." When you Procession a card, you play it twice, then trash it. If it mattered (which it doesn't), Procession "knows" where that card is now, because Procession put it in the trash. (This is not the case for Fortress - Procession "loses track" of Fortress since Fortress moves itself and Procession only tracks Procession moving cards).

Ah! But I thought I was clearly talking about the specific Procession-BoM-Fortress situation; you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I certainly accept that the Procession knows where the card is in the usual case.

edit: Just to be absolutely clear, the ruling that I was talking about was, in re Procession being played on BoM which is then declared to be a Fortress:

Quote
This one is in the FAQ, hooray. BoM goes back to your hand and you gain an action card costing $6. At the point at which you trashed it, it had an ability that returned it to your hand if it was trashed; at the point at which we need to know its cost, it's back to $5.

At some later point in what is now an overly-long discussion of something that is in the FAQ already, I think Donald X. said something (that the card is in the trash) which suggested that he had not understood what I was asking, which is probably my fault.

Ultimately what I have learned from this discussion is that the 'lose track' rule applies only when cards are being moved. For the purposes of reading the text on the card, the card could have been moved to Mars for all we care, it's still something that Procession (or any other card) can do.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 10:01:31 pm
Since Dominion cards are sort of like little computer programs, it might be useful to imagine implementing it as a computer program (in pseudo-code). This is how I might first try to implement Band of Misfits. It's not a perfect solution, but at least it illustrates the general idea. And it shows why it's pretty natural for the second play of BoM to allow a different choice than the first one, in my opinion.
Code: [Select]
def playFeast(card):
  card.trash()
  Gain a card costing up to $5.


class Feast:
  def play():
    playFeast(this)


def playMonument(card):
  +$2
  +1 VP token


class Monument:
  def play():
    playMonument(this)


def playThroneRoom(card):
  Choose an Action card 'x' in your hand.
  x.play()
  x.play()


class ThroneRoom:
  def play():
    playThroneRoom(this)


class BandOfMisfits:
  Initially, this.howToPlay = NULL

  def play():
    if this.howToPlay == NULL:
      First time...  this.howToPlay = playFeast
      Second time... this.howToPlay = playMonument

    this.howToPlay(this)

  def onLeavesPlay():
    this.howToPlay = NULL

How's this for an alternate psuedo-code?  Let me know what you think, or if this is unclear.

Code: [Select]
def getCardPlayingHelperObject(PhysicalCard x):
  if(x.card_name == "Feast"){
    return new Feast_CardPlayingHelperObject(x)
  }
  else if(x.card_name == "Monument"){
    return new Monument_CardPlayingHelperObject(x)
  }
  else if(x.card_name == "ThroneRoom"){
    return new ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject(x)
  }
  else if(x.card_name == "BandOfMisfits"){
    return new BandOfMisfits_CardPlayingHelperObject(x)
  }

class PhysicalCard:
  String card_name = {{Literal card name printed on the card}}
  Int card_cost = {{Literal card cost printed on the card}}
 
  constructor PhysicalCard()
    return this

  def play():
     cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(this)
     cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
   

class Feast_CardPlayingHelperObject:

  constructor Feast_CardPlayingHelperObject(PhysicalCard x):
    return this

  def play():
    this.trash()
    Gain a card costing up to $5.


class Monument_CardPlayingHelperObject:
 
  constructor Monument_CardPlayingHelperObject(PhysicalCard x):
    return this

  def play():
    +$2
    +1 VP token


class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:

  constructor ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject(PhysicalCard x):
    return this

  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()


class BandOfMisfits_CardPlayingHelperObject:
 
  constructor BandOfMisfits_CardPlayingHelperObject(PhysicalCard x):
    Choose a Physical card z that is in the supply where z.cardcost < x.cardcost
    return getCardPlayingHelperObject(z)



Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 10:06:13 pm
Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()

This section is where my quibble is. Throne Room reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." What you've implemented here is more like "Choose an Action card in your hand. Remember how to play it. Using the rules you remember, play it twice.". This is perfectly reasonable if Throne Room only reads the card text once. If it reads it twice (which is what I think), then it's wrong.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 10:16:07 pm
(Before I thought two rulings didn't agree that well. Now I try to adjust and see it in such a way that it does make sense.)

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.

Thinking algorithmically it's always best to take note of all the instructions on a card before starting to execute it. Just executing one line at a time might mean that we miss the last part if we have to burn the card at an earlier step (hypothetical example from Donald X. earlier). So playing a card entails copying it into temporary local storage and then executing orders from that copy line by line.

I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.

This is exactly what I have done in my psuedo-code.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 10:21:33 pm
(Before I thought two rulings didn't agree that well. Now I try to adjust and see it in such a way that it does make sense.)

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.

Thinking algorithmically it's always best to take note of all the instructions on a card before starting to execute it. Just executing one line at a time might mean that we miss the last part if we have to burn the card at an earlier step (hypothetical example from Donald X. earlier). So playing a card entails copying it into temporary local storage and then executing orders from that copy line by line.

I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.

This is exactly what I have done in my psuedo-code.
Okay, but why is
Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
more natural than
Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    y.play();
    y.play();
?

The second seems much closer to the text, to me.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RD on August 16, 2012, 10:29:07 pm
I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.
But why shouldn't Throne Room be able to remember that it played a Mining Village? This isn't an obstacle.

Again the lose track rule does not destroy information, just prevents you from moving cards. You can still play a card that's been moved to the trash or burned to ash, if you have a way of doing so. The part of "playing the card" that involves physically relocating it to the play area will fail, but the rest works just fine.

I mean you COULD rule that TR works by pre-caching all the instructions, don't get me wrong. (Whether or not that's a natural interpretation of the wording is another question.) But you're not fixing any problem by doing so. The TR/Mining Village issue is equally well resolved by saying that TR plays the Mining Village that is in the trash, full stop. And I don't see why this leads to any contradiction in the case of BoM either.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 10:31:48 pm
Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()

This section is where my quibble is. Throne Room reads "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." What you've implemented here is more like "Choose an Action card in your hand. Remember how to play it. Using the rules you remember, play it twice.". This is perfectly reasonable if Throne Room only reads the card text once. If it reads it twice (which is what I think), then it's wrong.

The concept of a cardPlayingHelperObject representing the rules of a card makes good sense to me.  It works well in my implementation of playing physical cards, and for representing what Band of Misfits does.  Following this scheme, then, this is what you would have me do?

Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y) {{note that y's properties and location may have changed}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()

I just want to be clear what your theory is.  So, according to your theory, when throne room plays Feast is looks like:

Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose the Physical Action card 'Feast' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from hand to play area.  During play it's location switches to the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y) {{reading card text of the Feast now in the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from trash.  But cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so.  This is why the Physical Feast card cannot be moved to the trash a second time.  Even though it is in the trash it can, however, try to give you a card, so it does. }}
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 10:42:57 pm
(Before I thought two rulings didn't agree that well. Now I try to adjust and see it in such a way that it does make sense.)

So I'm curious what makes Throne Room remember that the card it played was a Mining Village.

Thinking algorithmically it's always best to take note of all the instructions on a card before starting to execute it. Just executing one line at a time might mean that we miss the last part if we have to burn the card at an earlier step (hypothetical example from Donald X. earlier). So playing a card entails copying it into temporary local storage and then executing orders from that copy line by line.

I think we should see it like "Play that card twice" doesn't mean exactly "Play that card. Play that card." Instead the setting-up is done only once, and then we follow those copied instructions twice. So Throne Room doesn't have to remember that the card it played was a Mining Village, because it doesn't have to look at the card a second time.

This is exactly what I have done in my psuedo-code.
Okay, but why is
Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
more natural than
Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    y.play();
    y.play();
?

The second seems much closer to the text, to me.

Before Band of Misfits came along we never realized that there was is a moment as you are about to play a card where you need to take stock of how that card is going to be played.  Using the CardPlayingHelperObject concept is not "more natural" in terms of being closer to how people think in common practice: it adds complexity.  But from a programmer's perspective it is a way of designing our hypothetical program so that we can more easily take into account this moment of taking stock of how we are going to play the card.  It doesn't break the way any previously written cards work.  It also works great for the normal use of Band of Misfits.  The only question left is, when using the cardPlayingHelperObject concept, which definition of ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject's play method is correct:

Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()

or

Code: [Select]
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play()
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 10:43:11 pm
I'd maybe just write
Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
,
which seems simple enough. Maybe even define a play(x) function that just does getCardPlayingHelperObject(x).play(), to save the boilerplate.

I just want to be clear what your theory is.  So, according to your theory, when throne room plays Feast is looks like:

Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose the Physical Action card 'Feast' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from hand to play area.  During play it's location switches to the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y) {{reading card text of the Feast now in the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from trash.  But cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so.  This is why the Physical Feast card cannot be moved to the trash a second time.  Even though it is in the trash it can, however, try to give you a card, so it does. }}
Almost. The one thing I disagree with is "but cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so". What's actually going on is: the only reason the Feast would normally move to play is that Throne Room moves it there (as part of playing it). But since the Feast trashed itself, Throne Room lost track of the Feast (doesn't know where it is), so TR can't move the Feast to play.

This is pretty much the same as described in the Throne Room/Mining Village bible entry (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=78.0):
Quote
Throne Room expects to find Mining Village in play, where it put it. Mining Village moved itself to the trash though. Throne Room can't find it there, and so doesn't put it back into play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 10:55:39 pm
I'd maybe just write
Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
,
which seems simple enough. Maybe even define a play(x) function that just does getCardPlayingHelperObject(x).play(), to save the boilerplate.

This is functionally equivalent to the pseudocode I wrote to represent your theory, if we were to use my CardPlayingHelperObject system.

I just want to be clear what your theory is.  So, according to your theory, when throne room plays Feast is looks like:

Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose the Physical Action card 'Feast' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from hand to play area.  During play it's location switches to the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y) {{reading card text of the Feast now in the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from trash.  But cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so.  This is why the Physical Feast card cannot be moved to the trash a second time.  Even though it is in the trash it can, however, try to give you a card, so it does. }}
Almost. The one thing I disagree with is "but cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so". What's actually going on is: the only reason the Feast would normally move to play is that Throne Room moves it there (as part of playing it). But since the Feast trashed itself, Throne Room lost track of the Feast (doesn't know where it is), so TR can't move the Feast to play.


I don't think the concept that the Throne Room "lost track" of the Feast fits with the rest of your theory.  If a card is played, no matter how it is played, and by whom, there is an attempt to move the card to the play area.  When the card is in your hand, this attempt usually succeeds.  When the card is in the trash the attempt fails.  If the Throne Room lost track of the Feast such that it can't move the Feast to play, it means that the Throne Room lost track of the Feast such that it can't play the Feast at all.  In fact, we know from Donald X's original Feast ruling that the Throne Room can play the Feast (since the card is gained).  If Throne Room can find the Feast to play it, then there is an attempt to move the card to the play area :: it is just inherent in the concept of "playing" a card.

If the Throne Room has truly lost track of the Feast card, as you say, it only reinforces my theory that Throne Room only needs to read the card text once to execute the instructions twice.  If Throne Room has lost track of the Feast card, it can't read the Feast card's card text again.  Your version where Throne Room must read through the card text on the actual card twice as part of playing the card twice depends on Throne Room being able to "see" the card in the trash, actually.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 11:04:30 pm
I'd maybe just write
Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose a Physical Action card 'y' in your hand.
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
    getCardPlayingHelperObject(y).play()
,
which seems simple enough. Maybe even define a play(x) function that just does getCardPlayingHelperObject(x).play(), to save the boilerplate.

This is functionally equivalent to the pseudocode I wrote to represent your theory, if we were to use my CardPlayingHelperObject system.
Yep, it's functionally the same. I just meant to illustrate that it's pretty clean and simple.

Quote
I just want to be clear what your theory is.  So, according to your theory, when throne room plays Feast is looks like:

Code: [Select]
class ThroneRoom_CardPlayingHelperObject:
...
  def play():
    Choose the Physical Action card 'Feast' in your hand.
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y)
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from hand to play area.  During play it's location switches to the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject = getCardPlayingHelperObject(y) {{reading card text of the Feast now in the trash}}
    cardPlayingHelperObject.play() {{Physical Feast card is "played" from trash.  But cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so.  This is why the Physical Feast card cannot be moved to the trash a second time.  Even though it is in the trash it can, however, try to give you a card, so it does. }}
Almost. The one thing I disagree with is "but cards in trash do not come out of the trash without special rules to allow them to do so". What's actually going on is: the only reason the Feast would normally move to play is that Throne Room moves it there (as part of playing it). But since the Feast trashed itself, Throne Room lost track of the Feast (doesn't know where it is), so TR can't move the Feast to play.


I don't think the concept that the Throne Room "lost track" of the Feast is correct.  If a card is played, no matter how it is played, and by whom, there is an attempt to move the card to the play area.  When the card is in your hand, this attempt usually succeeds.  When the card is in the trash the attempt fails.  If the Throne Room lost track of the Feast such that it can't move the Feast to play, it means that the Throne Room lost track of the Feast such that it can't play the Feast at all.  In fact, we know from Donald X's original Feast ruling that the Throne Room can play the Feast (since the card is gained).  If Throne Room can find the Feast to play it, then there is an attempt to move the card to the play area :: it is just inherent in the concept of "playing" a card.
The Throne Room definitely loses track of the Feast before the second play. The TR/Mining Village situation is the same, and there it's clear that if the MV is trashed on the first play, then the TR loses track of it. Even though TR has lost track of the Feast, it can still play it, because the only thing you can't do to a lost card is move it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 11:05:40 pm
Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Kirian on August 16, 2012, 11:12:55 pm
Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

I believe that's correct.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 11:22:18 pm
Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

I believe that's correct.
OK thanks.  Sounds like Island is definitely the worst possible target for BoM.   
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 16, 2012, 11:45:31 pm
The Throne Room definitely loses track of the Feast before the second play. The TR/Mining Village situation is the same, and there it's clear that if the MV is trashed on the first play, then the TR loses track of it. Even though TR has lost track of the Feast, it can still play it, because the only thing you can't do to a lost card is move it.

Ok, so by "loses track of" you actually mean a technical definition that boils down to "can't move it".  Fine.

So, your theory is that the Throne Room can't move the Feast, but can and does read the text on the physical card in the trash and follow it as far as is possible (i.e. giving you a card).

My theory is that the Throne Room reads the text on the card and then executes those instructions twice.  Note that in my psuedocode, the CardPlayingHelperObject retains a reference to the original PhysicalCard, which is how it knows to physically move the card from your hand to the play area, and then from the play area to the trash the first time the Throne Room plays the card.

The difference between your reading and mine comes with the fact that, from the way most people understand the trash, a trashed card is "gone".  You don't read the text of a card in the trash unless you played a special card that actually looks at the cards in the trash pile.  To represent the normal understanding of what happens to a card when it goes into the trash in our programming code, you could say that the value of PhysicalCard y is now NULL.  The way my theory works, this doesn't even matter.  ThroneRoom will do the set of instructions twice whether the physical card no longer exists, whether it is truly lost so that ThroneRoom can't even read it, whether it is "psudeo-lost" under the technical definition that really means only "can't move it", or whether it is in a known location such as the play area or in your hand.

My theory is consistent with Donald X's original ruling on how Feast works, it is consistent with Donald X's new ruling on how Band of Misfits works, it is consistent with the TR/Mining Village ruling.  The only thing it is not consistent with is your intuition that throne room must read the physical card twice as part of the definition of playing it.  What's crazy is that with Band of Misfits, you don't even read the physical text of the card at all, if anything you are reading the physical text of the card it is masquerading as.

Here's another consequence of your theory that I just thought of: suppose you Throne Room a Band of Misfits and choose Ambassador as the card to emulate.  Suppose there is one Ambassador left in the supply.  Further suppose you reveal an Ambassador from your hand and choose to return no copies of the ambassador to the supply, causing your opponent to pick up the last Ambassador.

According to your theory that Throne Room re-evaluates the card when playing it a second time, wouldn't it make sense that the Throne Room actually picks up the card from the play area (since according to you it has not yet 'lost track of it' which just means 'it can move it') removing it from play temporarily even in the normal case that doesn't involve the trash, in preparation for playing it again?

If this is the case, then Band of Misfits is a Band of Misfits again once it is back in your hand ready to be played again, but this time you can't legally pick Ambassador since there are no copies of it in the supply.  I think most people would clearly play this: I play a Throne Room and pick Band of Misfits.  I'm playing my Band of Misfits as an Ambassador, so I do the Ambassador action twice.  Also, this is how Donald X. says it should be played.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 11:59:20 pm
Another one I just thought of:

What if you play your BoM as a duration card (or as a Throne Room that acts on a duration card)... your turn ends and you leave the BoM-as-duration in front of you on duration... then someone else ends the game.  Is the BoM still in play and thus still the duration card?  Or does it get cleaned up and go back to being a BoM?  This could have an effect on the value of Fairgrounds, if the BoM is something other than itself at the end of the game.  Sure, it's a corner case, but sooner or later there will be a game that comes down to this!  (Note that Fairgrounds would have to see the BoM as whatever card it is impersonating, because earlier in the thread DXV said that Horn of Plenty sees BoM not as BoM but as whatever card it was impersonating i.e. Village+BoM-as-village+HOP=gain $2 card, not $3 card...therefore if the BoM is a Caravan at the end of the game, then Fairgrounds has to see it as Caravan.  Thus the only question is whether the BoM is a Caravan or not.)

So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up?  The Seaside rules say: "A Duration card does something after your turn. Leave the card in front of you until the Clean-up Phase of the last turn in which it does something (discard it before drawing for the following turn). So if the card says 'Now and on your next turn,' discard it during the Clean-up phase of your next turn."  This seems to indicate that cards on duration at the end of the game should still be considered in play, but the wording may not quite be airtight enough to cover this new BoM case.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 17, 2012, 12:00:21 am
TR-> Feast: "Trash it.  Do this."  It performs this twice.  The second time around, there is nothing to trash, but there is no "if", so it still "does this."

TR-> Mining Village: "Do A.  If trash, do B."  It performs this twice.  If you trash the first time around, then on the second time, there is nothing to trash, so it only does A.

TR-> Band of Misfits: "Turn into something else.  Be that until you leave play."  The "be that until you leave play" overrides Throne Room performing the card twice - you're not playing Band of Misfits again, you're playing the thing it turned into again.

So the Lose Track rule can be summarized like so:

1) If Card A needs to know what Card B is, it will know it for the entirety that Card A is played, even if Card B goes somewhere odd.

2) If Card B is sidetracked and sent somewhere unusual, Card A cannot move it to the place Card A would normally move it, and "loses track" of its position.

3) If there's an "if," certain things cannot be done.

4) "When" implies simultaneity.

5) If there's a "would," forget everything above this.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 12:01:15 am
The difference between your reading and mine comes with the fact that, from the way most people understand the trash, a trashed card is "gone".
I agree that most people would understand trashed cards as "gone", but they aren't really gone. After all, this is Dark Ages we're talking about, where there are multiple ways for cards to come back from the trash. They definitely aren't gone!

Quote
You don't read the text of a card in the trash unless you played a special card that actually looks at the cards in the trash pile.
If this were true, it would contradict the Procession/BoM ruling, which was mentioned by Donald X earlier in this thread:
Quote
I checked and it was actually Doug Z. who argued for that ruling. The idea is that Band of Misfits has left play and so it stopped being Fortress. The madness has ended; at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash and costs $5. It had a different cost when we trashed it, but there we are asking for the cost when it's in the trash.
And he reiterated later why this is:
Quote
"Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.
So I am 100% confident that it's okay to read the text of a card in the trash. If it weren't, the Dark Ages FAQ would be wrong, since it includes the Procession/BoM ruling.


Quote
Here's another consequence of your theory that I just thought of: suppose you Throne Room a Band of Misfits and choose Ambassador as the card to emulate.  Suppose there is one Ambassador left in the supply.  Further suppose you reveal an Ambassador from your hand and choose to return no copies of the ambassador to the supply, causing your opponent to pick up the last Ambassador.

According to your theory that Throne Room re-evaluates the card when playing it a second time, wouldn't it make sense that the Throne Room actually picks up the card from the play area (since according to you it has not yet 'lost track of it' which just means 'it can move it') removing it from play temporarily even in the normal case that doesn't involve the trash, in preparation for playing it again?
No, why would it get picked up? Throne Room doesn't anywhere say to remove the card from play before playing it the second time. It stays in the play area, unmoved.

It would only leave play if it actually moved somewhere other than play, which it doesn't.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RD on August 17, 2012, 12:10:42 am
So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 12:10:51 am
TR-> Feast: "Trash it.  Do this."  It performs this twice.  The second time around, there is nothing to trash, but there is no "if", so it still "does this."

TR-> Mining Village: "Do A.  If trash, do B."  It performs this twice.  If you trash the first time around, then on the second time, there is nothing to trash, so it only does A.
My understanding here is that it's not true that there's "nothing to trash"--there is something to trash, but it's in the trash already, and you can't trash something that's already in the trash. (This is a little inconsistent with the ability of Throne Room to play something that's actually in play, but it's been this way since Intrigue, so it's not some new wrinkle.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 12:19:33 am
TR-> Feast: "Trash it.  Do this."  It performs this twice.  The second time around, there is nothing to trash, but there is no "if", so it still "does this."

TR-> Mining Village: "Do A.  If trash, do B."  It performs this twice.  If you trash the first time around, then on the second time, there is nothing to trash, so it only does A.
My understanding here is that it's not true that there's "nothing to trash"--there is something to trash, but it's in the trash already, and you can't trash something that's already in the trash. (This is a little inconsistent with the ability of Throne Room to play something that's actually in play, but it's been this way since Intrigue, so it's not some new wrinkle.)
Correcting myself a little here--the reason Mining Village fails to trash itself the second time is that it expects itself to be in play (and thus loses track of itself), not because it's already in the trash. Reference (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6055390#6055390):
Quote
For your specific combo, the question is, does Mining Village expect itself to be in play. Yes. It would normally be in play after being played, and it expects to find itself in play. If it's not in play then it can't move itself to the trash.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: lindyhopfan on August 17, 2012, 12:37:32 am
The difference between your reading and mine comes with the fact that, from the way most people understand the trash, a trashed card is "gone".
I agree that most people would understand trashed cards as "gone", but they aren't really gone. After all, this is Dark Ages we're talking about, where there are multiple ways for cards to come back from the trash. They definitely aren't gone!

Quote
You don't read the text of a card in the trash unless you played a special card that actually looks at the cards in the trash pile.
If this were true, it would contradict the Procession/BoM ruling, which was mentioned by Donald X earlier in this thread:
Quote
I checked and it was actually Doug Z. who argued for that ruling. The idea is that Band of Misfits has left play and so it stopped being Fortress. The madness has ended; at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash and costs $5. It had a different cost when we trashed it, but there we are asking for the cost when it's in the trash.
And he reiterated later why this is:
Quote
"Lose track" only applies when some other thing moves the card; a card keeps track of cards it moves itself, which is essential so that for example Procession can find the card in play in order to trash it (since it moved from your hand). And of course "lose track" only prevents moving, not information-getting.
So I am 100% confident that it's okay to read the text of a card in the trash. If it weren't, the Dark Ages FAQ would be wrong, since it includes the Procession/BoM ruling.

Procession is a card that quite explicitly reads the text of a card in the trash.  You trash a card and then read the cost of the card in the trash pile.  Of course it is okay to read the text of a card in the trash pile when your card's action tells you to do so.  That doesn't mean that the second playing of a Throne'd Feast is literally "playing" the Feast card that is sitting in the trash pile in the sense of reading what it says and doing it as far as possible.  It could be that this is what happens, in which case your theory would be right, and Donald X. should re-evaluate his reading.

Let me put my version into words one more way to help Donald X. decide for sure if he wants to continue his ruling.

My theory is that Throne Room could be re-worded as follows and still operate correctly under the current ruling:

Throne Room
$4
Choose an action card in your hand.  Move the action card to the play area.  Now, copy the text of that card into the blank space below.  Whenever that text refers to "this card", apply the text as if the reference was for the original action card.
{{blank space here}}
Now, follow the instructions in the blank space again.  Again, references to "this card" refer to the original action card, not this Throne Room.

So, Donald X, if this consequence feels wrong to you, and you think that we should instead be reading the text of the original action card twice in the process of playing it twice, by all means change your ruling.

Quote
Here's another consequence of your theory that I just thought of: suppose you Throne Room a Band of Misfits and choose Ambassador as the card to emulate.  Suppose there is one Ambassador left in the supply.  Further suppose you reveal an Ambassador from your hand and choose to return no copies of the ambassador to the supply, causing your opponent to pick up the last Ambassador.

According to your theory that Throne Room re-evaluates the card when playing it a second time, wouldn't it make sense that the Throne Room actually picks up the card from the play area (since according to you it has not yet 'lost track of it' which just means 'it can move it') removing it from play temporarily even in the normal case that doesn't involve the trash, in preparation for playing it again?
No, why would it get picked up? Throne Room doesn't anywhere say to remove the card from play before playing it the second time. It stays in the play area, unmoved.

It would only leave play if it actually moved somewhere other than play, which it doesn't.

Throne Room doesn't anywhere say to move the card from your hand into the play area, either.  That is instead just part of the definition of playing a card: move the card from your hand to the play area.  The definition pre-supposes that the the card is in your hand, so I was hypothesizing that perhaps "play this card twice" has, as a hidden sub-text, the idea of picking it up to play it again.  I know that when playing with physical cards, most people physically move the card being played down, then up, then down again as they explain what they are doing, so I'm not the only person to think of it this way.  You could be right that the correct interpretation of "play" includes the notion, "If this card is in your hand, move it to the play area, else just leave the card where it is and play it there.  I don't know.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 17, 2012, 12:52:50 am
So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

This could have significant endgame repercussions in the right kingdom.  Say you play three BoM's as a Throne Room (modifying a duration, thus staying out on duration) a Caravan, and a Haven (none of which you actually have any copies of)...and as long as they're on duration as those cards they are popping your six Fairgrounds for 2 extra points apiece or 12 total points.  If they don't go back to being BoM's when another player ends the game, then this could be a tactic to prevent your opponent from ending the game on their turn.     
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 12:54:58 am
Procession is a card that quite explicitly reads the text of a card in the trash.  You trash a card and then read the cost of the card in the trash pile.  Of course it is okay to read the text of a card in the trash pile when your card's action tells you to do so.  That doesn't mean that the second playing of a Throne'd Feast is literally "playing" the Feast card that is sitting in the trash pile in the sense of reading what it says and doing it as far as possible.  It could be that this is what happens, in which case your theory would be right, and Donald X. should re-evaluate his reading.
I think that, yes, the second play from TR is literally playing the trashed Feast. If we dig into the BGG thread that contained the TR/MV explanation (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6057349#6057349):
Quote
Why would you ever do two things with a card - why not just jump to the second thing? But Throne does exactly that. It plays it and then plays it again. So something could actually have happened to the card in the middle. And if something has, Throne can't yank it back into play. There are cases where you really won't know where the card is, so I have to draw the line somewhere, and the simplest place is, "if it's moved at all."
For the "plays it again", what could "it" be except the trashed card? (There are other DXV posts also worth reading in that BGG thread.)



Quote
Throne Room doesn't anywhere say to move the card from your hand into the play area, either.  That is instead just part of the definition of playing a card: move the card from your hand to the play area.  The definition pre-supposes that the the card is in your hand, so I was hypothesizing that perhaps "play this card twice" has, as a hidden sub-text, the idea of picking it up to play it again.  I know that when playing with physical cards, most people physically move the card being played down, then up, then down again as they explain what they are doing, so I'm not the only person to think of it this way.  You could be right that the correct interpretation of "play" includes the notion, "If this card is in your hand, move it to the play area, else just leave the card where it is and play it there.  I don't know.
The definition of playing a card is a bit problematic, because Golem actually puts a card into play from being revealed, not from your hand. I'm not sure how this is resolved.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 17, 2012, 12:59:50 am
So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

This could have significant endgame repercussions in the right kingdom.  Say you play three BoM's as a Throne Room (modifying a duration, thus staying out on duration) a Caravan, and a Haven (none of which you actually have any copies of)...and as long as they're on duration as those cards they are popping your six Fairgrounds for 2 extra points apiece or 12 total points.  If they don't go back to being BoM's when another player ends the game, then this could be a tactic to prevent your opponent from ending the game on their turn.   

I would argue that no card can be in play if the game is over, so at game end it reverts to BoM whatever it was before.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Kirian on August 17, 2012, 01:01:16 am
So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

This could have significant endgame repercussions in the right kingdom.  Say you play three BoM's as a Throne Room (modifying a duration, thus staying out on duration) a Caravan, and a Haven (none of which you actually have any copies of)...and as long as they're on duration as those cards they are popping your six Fairgrounds for 2 extra points apiece or 12 total points.  If they don't go back to being BoM's when another player ends the game, then this could be a tactic to prevent your opponent from ending the game on their turn.     

That may be the most incredibly picayune reading of the rules I've seen in an attempt to find something crazy to do with a card.

When the game ends, all cards leave play, because no more playing is happening.  Bam, BoM is a BoM again.  I think trying to argue otherwise is as needlessly silly as asking what happens if neither player is willing to end the game.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: jsimantov on August 17, 2012, 01:18:21 am
Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

Hey, I just thought of something related to this, which has nothing to do with Band of Misfits...

What happens if you set aside a VP card on Haven, but then the game ends before your next turn? Is the set aside card still counted towards your score? Originally I thought obviously yes, but now I'm thinking maybe not, by a strict interpretation of what "set aside" means... (which is why Island specifically tells you to put itself and its set aside card back in your deck at the end of the game).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 17, 2012, 02:29:32 am
Saw this question on page 1 but no answer through page 4...forgive me if already answered, but...

How does BoM work as an Island?  You play it, you set it aside on the Island mat...and it has now left play... so it's now a BoM hopelessly stranded forever on a desert island?

Hey, I just thought of something related to this, which has nothing to do with Band of Misfits...

What happens if you set aside a VP card on Haven, but then the game ends before your next turn? Is the set aside card still counted towards your score? Originally I thought obviously yes, but now I'm thinking maybe not, by a strict interpretation of what "set aside" means... (which is why Island specifically tells you to put itself and its set aside card back in your deck at the end of the game).

Nah, the note on Island is just a reminder.  The basic rules state that when the game ends, all players put all their cards into their deck and count up their points.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pst on August 17, 2012, 03:28:00 am
Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

Eh, no. Then you might as well argue that you don't get any points for your Victory cards. "No, the game ended before we came to the "count the victory points" parts.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Rhombus on August 17, 2012, 03:31:07 am
I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Qvist on August 17, 2012, 04:02:17 am
I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.

Yeah, I "lost track" of all the correct answers and special cases. We need the official rulebook going online.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 17, 2012, 04:30:47 am
I think we need a BOM FAQ - there's an awful lot here.

Yeah, I "lost track" of all the correct answers and special cases. We need the official rulebook going online.
Well it won't have all of these. It covers the more normal questions though.

At the end of the game, Band of Misfits is just a Band of Misfits. Set aside cards are all in your deck.

I still feel like the rules can be consistent and have the rulings I've made be the correct ones. They may not agree with everything I've said ever, but I'd rather have said something wrong than have the rules be wrong. Anyway I still like the Procession / Band / Feast ruling as I have it.

I did say the wrong thing in a paragraph that's been quoted a bunch here, though not in a way that people have been pointing at, unless it's been in long posts full of computer code. I say, "at the point at which Procession checks, the card is in the trash," when of course it's in your hand; Procession trashes it, it goes to your hand because it's Fortress, then Procession checks the cost. If the cost could be affected by the contents of the trash - and there was actually a card like that at one point - that would matter. There isn't such a card though, phew.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 04:50:31 am
Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 17, 2012, 05:12:35 am
Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.
If that works then yes.

I have done card-doublers in a bunch of games, and sometimes they do actually lock in the text duplicated, blatantly. That's not relevant, I just felt like sharing. I guess it's relevant in that, it's something I feel has a chance of covering whatever situations come up.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 05:32:21 am
Is it that Throne Room just reads the card text once, then? I think that's consistent even though it doesn't feel natural to me.
If that works then yes.

I have done card-doublers in a bunch of games, and sometimes they do actually lock in the text duplicated, blatantly. That's not relevant, I just felt like sharing. I guess it's relevant in that, it's something I feel has a chance of covering whatever situations come up.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 17, 2012, 09:10:30 am
So really my question is, where exactly do duration cards that are still in play go when another player ends the game?  Are they still considered in play or are they cleaned up? 

Base rules:

Quote
The game ends at the end of any player’s turn when either:
1) the Supply pile of Province cards is empty or
2) any 3 Supply piles are empty.

Each player puts all of his cards into his Deck and counts the
victory points on all the cards he has.

To me the most natural interpretation is that moving BoM back to your deck at this point triggers the card text and reverts it. There's no rule that Victory cards are the only cards whose text still has effects in the ending stages of the game. (But if that were so and BoM's text no longer has any meaning, you could make the case that this too means BoM is just a BoM.)

I think I agree with you...but again this language is not tight enough for the BoM case.  This case needs its own rule from DXV.  The game ends at the end of the player's turn, not when you move all of your cards to your deck.  As soon as that other player's turn is over with either of the two end conditions met...boom...the game is over, therefore it is easy for someone to argue, "My BoM was a Caravan when the game ended.  It's still a Caravan." 

This could have significant endgame repercussions in the right kingdom.  Say you play three BoM's as a Throne Room (modifying a duration, thus staying out on duration) a Caravan, and a Haven (none of which you actually have any copies of)...and as long as they're on duration as those cards they are popping your six Fairgrounds for 2 extra points apiece or 12 total points.  If they don't go back to being BoM's when another player ends the game, then this could be a tactic to prevent your opponent from ending the game on their turn.     

That may be the most incredibly picayune reading of the rules I've seen in an attempt to find something crazy to do with a card.
Given everything going on in this thread and on this forum, I take that as quite the compliment!  +1 for you!  :)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 17, 2012, 10:47:51 am
Taken from DA Rules PDF on Rio Grande's website:

Band of Misfits: When you play this, you pick an Action card from
the Supply that costs less than it, and treat this card as if it were
the card you chose. Normally this will just mean that you follow
the instructions on the card you picked. So, if you play Band of
Misfits and Fortress is in the Supply, you could pick that and then
you would draw a card and get +2 Actions, since that is what
Fortress does when you play it. Band of Misfits also gets the
chosen card's cost, name, and types. If you use Band of Misfits as
a card that trashes itself, such as Death Cart, you will trash the
Band of Misfits (at which point it will just be a Band of Misfits
card in the trash). If you use Band of Misfits as a duration card
(from Seaside), Band of Misfits will stay in play until next turn,
just like the duration card would. If you use Band of Misfits as a
Throne Room (from Dominion), King's Court (from Prosperity),
or Procession, and use that effect to play a duration card, Band of
Misfits will similarly stay in play. If you use Throne Room, King's
Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times,
you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is
still copying the same card. For example, if you use Procession to
play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you
will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of
Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed,
and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your
hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly ( more than
Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying
Fortress). If you use Band of Misfits as a card that does something
during Clean-up, such as Hermit, it will do that thing during
Clean-up. When you play Horn of Plenty (from Cornucopia), it
counts Band of Misfits as whatever Band of Misfits was played as;
for example if you play a Band of Misfits as a Fortress, and then
play another Band of Misfits as a Scavenger, and then play Horn
of Plenty, you will gain a card costing up to . Band of Misfits can
only be played as a card that is visible in the Supply; it cannot be
played as a card after its pile runs out, and cannot be played as a
non-Supply card like Mercenary; it can be played as the top card
of the Ruins pile, but no other Ruins, and can only be played as Sir
Martin when that is the top card of the Knights pile.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Sade on August 17, 2012, 11:16:18 am
If you use Band of Misfits as a [...] King's Court (from Prosperity)

How could this possibly be done?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Grujah on August 17, 2012, 11:27:19 am
By reducing price of KC to 4 or less, while keeping the price of BoM at 5. How do you do that? No way with current cards, but you never know..  ;D
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 17, 2012, 03:15:42 pm
If you use Band of Misfits as a [...] King's Court (from Prosperity)

How could this possibly be done?
It was possible with a Dark Ages outtake.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: axlemn on August 21, 2012, 06:23:30 pm
Wow.  Darn.  I have too much time on my hands, but I just read the first 6 pages of this thread. 

I saw a problem that I thought would (and strongly believed should) resolve one way then resolve the other way.  And then I felt confused and a bit slighted.  Then I saw some extremely well-reasoned arguments about wording, and I was suddenly completely convinced. 

I just wanted to say... wow.  Good job to everyone here. 
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: michaeljb on August 22, 2012, 08:56:53 pm
So I'm a little late to the party, but oh well.

After doing all this reading, I have concluded that, given the cards' texts alone, Throne Room (and other 'multipliers') and Band of Misfits should behave differently when played together than the current ruling indicates. (also since the Dark Ages rulebook clearly contradicts what I'm about to say it's almost pointless for me to keep going, but I'm going to anyway, paying attention only to the text on the cards)

Quote from: Throne Room
Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice.

So when you play Throne Room, you pick an Action card in hand; if BoM is in hand, TR clearly sees it as BoM, it's not a Feast or anything else while it's in your hand. So then you play that card that you chose--which has to be BoM--two times.

Now, some of the interpretations ITT seem to be based on the idea that it goes more like this: I play TR, choose an Action card, BoM--oh BoM has suddenly already morphed into the card I'm going to play it as (say, Feast), even though I have not yet reached the instruction to play the chosen card twice, so now I've chosen BoM-as-Feast, so now I play Feast twice.

I see no real reason for BoM to make the transformation after it has been chosen but before it has been played. TR wants to pick an Action card from your hand, BoM is an Action card in your hand, BoM should be played twice, not BoM-as-Village is played twice so it must be a Village both times. That's right, I'm saying that you should be able to pick different cards for BoM to imitate/copy/be/whatever-you-want-to-call-it.

But wait, you say, after TR has moved BoM to play, BoM has definitely become something else, like Smithy, so obviously it must be Smithy again. I disagree with this conclusion too. When you Throne a Feast, it gets trashed the first time, but is still played the second time--TR doesn't care where Feast is, it's just playing Feast. So why should TR care about 'finding' BoM again? TR shouldn't care that BoM isn't in play, or that now there's this Village in play that wasn't a moment ago; it should just follow the instructions of the chosen card twice, which was BoM.

Weirdly this results in BoM sitting in play as the first card that it copied. So I play TR, choose BoM, first choosing a Village, the BoM card is now in play as a Village card, then second I choose to copy Embargo, I get +$2 and can place a token, but there's no Embargo card anywhere to get trashed, so I get to keep my BoM.

Conclusion: based on a strict reading of the cards alone, when you play a Throne Room/King's Court/Procession and choose BoM, you should be able to choose a different Action card to play BoM as, each time it is played. Of course the rulebook overrides this, but oh well.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 22, 2012, 09:05:23 pm
That interpretation seems consistent to me, even though it goes against the rulebook FAQs.

It depends what "it" in Throne Room refers to:
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: michaeljb on August 22, 2012, 09:17:16 pm
I wouldn't agree that the "it" on Throne Room really refers to the type/class/whatever, I'd still say it refers to the physical card you chose, which in my example was Band of Misfits. It's just that, thinking about how TR-Feast works brought me to the conclusion that after TR has played BoM the first time, it should be able to play BoM the second time, independent of what BoM 'became' on its first play.

The two things I'm trying to say here:
-When TR goes to pick a card, it can pick BoM, and there's no sensible reason why BoM would already be something else when TR does the picking
-With Feast, TR doesn't care at all that it can't find Feast the last place it put it, it just plays Feast again. Why should TR care that there's no longer a BoM where it put it? It should just play BoM again (and you therefore get to pick a different card for BoM to copy).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: flip314 on August 22, 2012, 11:44:43 pm
My wife tried to convince me that she should be able to use BoM as a reaction (specifically market square).  My argument was that you don't "play" a reaction, you reveal it, set it aside, or whatever the card says to do.  However, I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that clarified the issue.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 22, 2012, 11:47:06 pm
My wife tried to convince me that she should be able to use BoM as a reaction (specifically market square).  My argument was that you don't "play" a reaction, you reveal it, set it aside, or whatever the card says to do.  However, I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that clarified the issue.

Any thoughts?

I'd be on your side.  You could play it as an Action-Reaction on your turn, but you shouldn't be able to reveal it as a reaction in response to something.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 22, 2012, 11:49:16 pm
That seems right. You don't play reactions, you reveal them.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: billyswong on August 23, 2012, 12:02:08 am
I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: billyswong on August 23, 2012, 12:23:00 am
As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 24, 2012, 04:13:19 pm
As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 24, 2012, 04:18:56 pm
I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.

While this makes sense, it is not what the rules say, and I don't see why you posted it. The thread isn't really about telling us what the rules are, we can now look them up. The thread is about producing a mental model that explains the rules as they are printed.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: blueblimp on August 24, 2012, 06:13:11 pm
I just joined the forum for replying this thread.

I was with blueblimp most in the interpretation of Band of Misfits card. Then michaeljb shed a new light and the whole interpretation got refined.

As michaeljb has said, Throne Room calls for "Choose an action card in hand. Play it twice." What TR sees in the case of TR-BoM is, the player chooses BoM in hand. BoM only morphs WHEN it is played. But when TR chooses BoM, it has not yet been played. So TR has to address the BoM card as a plain BoM card when the player "play it twice". TR does NOT know what the BoM card is morphing into. (Band of Misfits says "Play this as if it were an Action card", Not "Treat it as if".)

Therefore, for normal cases such as TR-BoM-Smithy, the only thing that makes BoM remains a Smithy is its instruction to keep the morph "until it leaves play", and nothing else. The flow is
1) TR card plays BoM card twice;
2) BoM card first plays as if a Smithy card;
3) The BoM card *is still* a Smithy card because it has not left play;
4) Without choice, BoM card plays as if a Smithy card again.

However, for the case of TR-BoM-Feast, the following happens:
1) A TR card tells the player to choose an action card on hand; play it twice.
1.1) Player chooses a BoM card.
1.2) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the first time.
1.2.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.2.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Feast.
1.2.1.1.1) BoM-as-Feast tells the player to trash it; gain a <=$5 card.
1.2.1.1.1.1) Player trashes BoM-as-Feast.
1.2.1.1.1.1.1) BoM is entering Trash.
1.2.1.1.1.1.2) BoM-as-Feast leaves play; magic fades.
1.2.1.1.1.2) Player gains a <=$5 card.
1.3) Player plays the BoM card *twice* the second time.
1.3.0.1) BoM card cannot *move* to in play, as cards don't MOVE out of the trash; they GAIN from the trash. (ref: Graverobber)
1.3.0.2) The BoM card is a vanilla BoM card in Trash.
1.3.1) The BoM card tells the player to play "this" as if it were an action card which fulfills blah blah blah; stays "this" so until "it leaves play".
1.3.1.1) Player plays the BoM card as if it is a Fortress.
1.3.1.1.1) BoM-as-Fortress tells the players to +1card, +2actions.
1.3.1.1.1.1) Player +1card, +2actions.
In clear-up phrase:
2) TR is in play; it is discarded.
3) BoM-as-Fortress is not in play; it is not *discarded*.
4.0.1) BoM-as-Fortress has never been *trashed*; it is already in Trash before it is a Fortress.
4.0.2) "When you trash this" doesn't apply.
4.0.3) It does not tell the player to put it into hand.
4) BoM-as-Fortress stays in Trash.

While this makes sense, it is not what the rules say, and I don't see why you posted it. The thread isn't really about telling us what the rules are, we can now look them up. The thread is about producing a mental model that explains the rules as they are printed.
I don't see that the printed rules address TR BoM-as-Feast either way.

Edit: Well I guess this is pretty close:
Quote
If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card.
although it is explained by the example of Procession-Fortress, which doesn't have the self-trashing complication.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: billyswong on August 24, 2012, 11:10:41 pm
As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.
Example?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: michaeljb on August 25, 2012, 09:24:12 pm
As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.
Example?

Mining Village, when played with Throne Room.

The first time, Mining Village can trash itself for +$2; the second time it's played if you choose to trash it, it expects to find itself in play but doesn't, so it fails to move itself to the trash, so in the end you can only get the +$2 once.

edit: And now I see that's the example you were responding to. hrmm...I still say in that situation Mining Village has lost track of itself. Throne Room sure isn't the card that's trying and failing to move it to the trash both times.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 25, 2012, 11:16:09 pm
I think BoM should have had this wording instead: When this in play, if you choose, it counts as any action card costing less than it. As it reads, "when you play this," Implies that when you play it as an action you get a choice to play it as one action.

So, I see the TR argument. You are playing BoM twice and each time you play it, BoM becomes an action of your choice.

I know Donald X.'s ruling, but it doesn't really make much sense in my opinion after giving much thought about this.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 25, 2012, 11:25:59 pm
As for the mechanism of "lose track":

A statement that changes a card's location has a hidden "from xxx", and the "from xxx" is cached. (For each "put", our hands need to know both where to put to and where to put FROM.) A statement from a particular card can always instruct the player to put the card itself to other places, because it always know where itself is and update the "from xxx" data accordingly. A statement from another card may or may not be able to put it to other places, because the statement on another card will not update "from xxx" spontaneously, thus the "lose track". This also explains why other cards can still read a card's data even after the card has been put elsewhere, because reading data does not has an extra hidden "from xxx".

This also explains why mining villages cannot re-trash itself at TR-Trash. It is because trashing has a hidden "from xxx outside the trash".

This is incorrect. Cards can lose track of themselves.
Example?

We don't need an example, it follows from a literal reading of the lose-track rule in the Dark Ages rulebook.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 26, 2012, 01:00:15 am
Okay, I'm also late to this. I found this thread after thinking about this very problem when reading a different thread on BGG. Here is my summary of the whole thing.

[EDIT: Since there were numerous errors here, I just deleted the whole thing. Nobody had responded to anything in it directly anyway. Relevant points is instead made in my next post.]
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 27, 2012, 10:38:08 am
Donald X. [and apparently the two reference implementations (isotropic and Goko)] says that Throne Room (and KC and Procession) applied to BoM-as-Feast plays the Feast twice (or three times) without offering a choice.

Unless Donald X. reverses himself, this is the rule.

The BoM in the trash is just a BoM, so we are lead to conclude that Throne Room determines once what the card to played twice is, then carries out the instructions on that card twice. I don't see that any other explanation of the rule as we currently have it makes sense.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Synthesizer on August 27, 2012, 11:54:58 am
Hi,
I just joined the forum specifically to post this :)
I have been lurking for a while now, and never had anything worthwile to add, but I think I actually have a suggestion that will resolve a lot of (maybe even all?) TR debates. Here goes nothing:
"Choose an action card in your hand. Put it into play, then execute its action twice."

(or thrice, in case of KC; that would also need a "you may" clause in the obvious place)

("resolve" instead of "execute"?) (definitely not "play", because one might confuse that for "I can't do this because I don't have  another copy of the chosen card in hand")

I figure with this wording, any issue would be resolved:
- BOM can't be put into play without converting it into "whatever".
- Feast gets trashed, you gain a card, you can't execute the trashing bit, then you gain a card
- Treasure map gets trashed with a copy in hand, you qualify for the golds, then you must trash a copy in your hand if you have one, but this time you don't qualify for the golds.
- TR or KC just gets executed twice/thrice
- Mining Village gives you +2 action, + 1 card, then you may trash it immediately, if you do, you qualify for getting +2$, then it gives you another +2actions +1 card; now you may trash it immediately, but if you did on the previous run through, you can't because you did so already, so you can't qualify for +2$.

Anybody looking for a mental model, I guess this would be it. I think this would only leave the behavior with durations up to the rulebook.

This thread was a fun read! 8)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Stealth Tomato on August 27, 2012, 01:30:12 pm
So:
The instructions on BoM are actually resolved before playing the card: True, that is reasonable.
"Play it twice" does not mean "play it, then play it again": Untrue, it must mean that.
Because the last one is untrue, I can't support the official interpretation. I also think the most intuitive way to play it would be to choose the action card again after trashing Feast with Throne Room.
How about a different interpretation: Throne Room, upon entering play, becomes an imprint of the card chosen with it, whose instructions are then followed twice. If Throne Room would be trashed due to the imprinted effect, trash the imprinter instead. This is essentially an errata on Throne Room, but I think it works.

e.g.

I play a Throne Room on a Wharf. Wharf itself is essentially a token attached to Throne Room. Throne Room causes me to draw 4 cards and get +2 Buys, stays in play after cleanup, then does the same on my next turn.

I play Throne Room on a BoM. Throne Room becomes BoM. I choose Embargo. Throne Room becomes Embargo. The "trash this" effect trashes the imprinter (BoM) and the remainder of Embargo resolves. Throne Room has not left play, so it's still an Embargo. I can't re-trash the imprinter (just like if I'd Throned an Embargo directly), but the effect still resolves.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 27, 2012, 01:33:36 pm
It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 27, 2012, 02:45:19 pm
It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.

What's causing confusion is the case of cards that do leave the play area when they get played, such as Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 27, 2012, 02:56:12 pm
It's easy to see the way the FAQ has it.

Throne Room says pick a card in your hand play it twice. Ok so I pick band of misfits. I play it, I'll play it as a fortress. This is a fortress till it leaves play ok.
Play it again...well it never left the play area so it MUST still be a fortress. Nothing on throne room or kings court contradict this part of the card, BoM simply doesn't leave play.

What's causing confusion is the case of cards that do leave the play area when they get played, such as Feast.

On that note its not in play anymore, it can't change it's text.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: shMerker on August 27, 2012, 03:02:21 pm
Uh...can't it? I mean, it trashed itself, so it didn't lose track. Meanwhile it has text that explicitly says what happens when it leaves play. If there's a rule that says something can't happen to a card while it's not in play wouldn't that mean that text is never invoked?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 27, 2012, 04:19:04 pm
When Band of Misfits (acting as Feast) is trashed, the card reverts back to being Band of Misfits, as per the card text.

If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits (acting as Feast), you get two Feast effects, not one Feast effect and then a second effect where Band of Misfits chooses to be something else; we know this because Donald Said So.

After that, the only discussion about BoM/TR/Feast has been trying to figure out the best way to understand the structure of the rules in order to make the two above sentences consistent.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 27, 2012, 04:22:49 pm
When Band of Misfits (acting as Feast) is trashed, the card reverts back to being Band of Misfits, as per the card text.

If you Throne Room a Band of Misfits (acting as Feast), you get two Feast effects, not one Feast effect and then a second effect where Band of Misfits chooses to be something else; we know this because Donald Said So.

After that, the only discussion about BoM/TR/Feast has been trying to figure out the best way to understand the structure of the rules in order to make the two above sentences consistent.

What if Throne/KC/Procession on a feast doesn't make feast leave play until after the last resolution (and only if it was trashed)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 27, 2012, 04:54:38 pm
What if Throne/KC/Procession on a feast doesn't make feast leave play until after the last resolution (and only if it was trashed)

This is known to be false.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Schneau on August 27, 2012, 07:57:16 pm
My major issue in all this discussion is the Rule Book's interpretation of Procession playing Bom-as-Fortress. From the rules:

Quote
If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card. For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly $6 ($1 more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress).

So, let's assume that it is correct that BoM-as-Fortress is a Fortress and therefore should be returned to your hand when you trash it. Based on the interpretation of Throne Room + BoM-as-Feast, Throne Room (and by proxy Procession) remember what card was played by BoM, which is why Throne Room + BoM-as-Feast can play Feast twice even though BoM is in the trash the second play. Now we get to Procession:

Quote
Procession
$4 - Action
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it.

Here, the "it" in both "Trash it." and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it." refer to BoM-as-Fortress. So, if Throne Room can remember that BoM-as-Feast is a Feast even when it is in the trash, why does Procession suddenly think that BoM-as-Fortress is a BoM? Shouldn't it think it's a Fortress? More importantly, BoM can't be "played" in the normal sense - it must be played "as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it." So, I would make the case that you would gain a card costing $5, not $6 as is stated in the rules.


(As a related aside, what would happen if you play BoM in a game without an Action cards cheaper than it in the Kingdom? Are you even allowed to play it (say, to buy a cheaper Peddler)?)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 27, 2012, 09:18:30 pm
Here, the "it" in both "Trash it." and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it." refer to BoM-as-Fortress. So, if Throne Room can remember that BoM-as-Feast is a Feast even when it is in the trash, why does Procession suddenly think that BoM-as-Fortress is a BoM? Shouldn't it think it's a Fortress?

Good question; it has been talked about. It's correct that Procession thinks it's a BoM, because "it" just refers to the-card-you-chose-whatever-it-is-now, and "Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 more than it" is a new instruction that happens after the card is trashed and thus a BoM.

As I reasoned, one should think Throne Room would act in the same way. The only way Throne Room would "remember" that the card is a Feast the second time must be if the second instruction to play the card does not come after the card is trashed, but rather is triggered before, at the same time as the first instruction to play the card. I'm talking about the card text "play it twice." This then cannot mean "play it, then play it again."

And thinking about this (even) further, I realize that I was wrong in my reasoning! New post will follow.

More importantly, BoM can't be "played" in the normal sense - it must be played "as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it." So, I would make the case that you would gain a card costing $5, not $6 as is stated in the rules.

Even thought a BoM was never played, the card that was played ("it") is now a BoM.

(As a related aside, what would happen if you play BoM in a game without an Action cards cheaper than it in the Kingdom? Are you even allowed to play it (say, to buy a cheaper Peddler)?)

You are always allowed to play an action card (provided you have a remaining action). Then you do as much as you can. Basic rules.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 27, 2012, 11:22:48 pm
Okay, to try to make this less cluttered and easier to follow, i just deleted my previous post. Every point is here instead.

First of all, we absolutely need a new rule that has never been stated anywhere before:

Rule: All instructions on a card must be followed once it is played.

Without this rule BoM-as-Feast would not gain a card, and BoM-as-Embargo would not place a token. When the card would be trashed, it would revert back to BoM (no matter how you interpret BoM) before we could get to the second instruction on Feast or Embargo.

Then there is the question of Throne Room + BoM, choosing Feast. The official interpretation is that the second time Throne Room plays BoM it would still play it as Feast, even though the Feast you trashed is now a BoM.

***
First there is the question of whether the instructions on BoM are played as with every other action cards, or they are resolved - uniquely - before actually playing the card.

If BoM is played like any other action card, we need to do the instructions on the card after playing it. It enters the play area as a BoM. There are two instructions. The first is to play it as if it were another Action card. This would almost seem to mean that this card, just as Throne Room and Golem, makes us play another card, thereby racking up two played actions (for a Conspirator tally). It does say "play this as if it were an Action card...", not "play an Action card...", but even if the card played itself, that would still be the next thing that happened after we already played it. So the wording doesn't actually support playing it as a normal action card, without getting clearly unwanted and non-intuitive consequences.

The second instruction is, as I see it, setting up an ability to happen later. That ability happens when the card leaves play: It then reverts to being BoM. It doesn't matter whether we resolve this instruction before playing the card or after playing it, it still sets this up to happen at that time. But if the first instruction is done before playing the card, it would be very weird not to do both of them then.

To my mind it's not desirable that an Action card should be unique in having instructions that must be followed before playing it, rather than after. But it actually is the most intuitive way to resolve the card, given the way it's worded.

In any case, even if BoM's card text is a before-play ability, it won't trigger until BoM is actually played. Then, right before the card is played, the ability is triggered. Simply choosing the card (with Throne Room for instance) won't trigger a before-play ability.

***
In my previous post I postulated that it was important whether or not Throne Room's "play it twice" means "play it, then play it again". Even though the Throne Room FAQ says so, we know that the exact wording in FAQs is not to be trusted, FAQs are just meant to explain the card in an immediate way.

I compared "play it twice" with "gain two coppers" (Cache), which I still think is a good comparison. I said "gain two Coppers" means "gain a Copper, then gain another Copper". The reason I thought so was that "gain a Curse and Copper" (Mountebank) means "gain a Curse, then gain a Copper". There are also other examples of "A and B" meaning "A, then B" (Followers for instance). But Donald has actually not stated this about "gain two Coppers". Here are the relevant links.

About Mountebank: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6893644#6893644 (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6893644#6893644)
About Cache: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1701.msg27082#msg27082)

The two abilites are actually not the same. "Gain a Curse and a Copper" means "gain a Curse, then gain a Copper." Two consecutive effects. But "gain two Coppers" means "gain two Coppers simultaneously". Two simultaneous effects. If "gain a Curse and a Copper" were two simultaneous effects, the player gaining them would get to choose the order in which they are resolved. He could gain the Copper first, or the Curse. According to Donald he can't; he gains the Curse first. But Donald does state that the Coppers from Cache are simultaneous, so the player gaining them decides the order (which doesn't matter).

So according to this rule for "gain two X", it would follow that "do X twice" behaves in the same way. Thus "play it twice" actually triggers two effects simultaneously. Both are "play it", i.e. "play the chosen card". We then have to choose the order in which we will resolve them, but it doesn't matter since they're the same. In my previous post I said that "gain two X" or "do X twice" has to entail two consecutive instructions, but that was wrong. They can be triggered simultaneously, they just need to be resolved consecutively.

But I don't actually think that this matters for the current problem! In my previous post I said that if both effects are triggered before we resolve them, then that would mean Throne Room "loads" the chosen card's instructions first, to use both times. First of all, not just the instructions but of course all the stats (name, type, cost) would have to be "loaded". But I think this is false anyway. Instructions (not anything else) are "loaded" when a card is played (in order to fulfull the rule that all instructions on a card must be followed once it is played). But the card isn't played when the effect to play it is triggered; it's played when that effect is resolved. The effects that are triggered are just "play the chosen card" and it doesn't even matter what the card is then, just that it's the card we chose. We order the effects, then resolve them consecutively. When we resolve the first effect, we play the card and it's a BoM. At that point BoM's before-play ability is triggered and it becomes Feast, and is then played normally as Feast. If we trash the Feast, it reverts to a BoM. When we resolve the second effect, we play the card and it's a BoM.

***
A note regarding "it": Throne Room says play it twice. This is the card you chose from your hand. It doesn't matter what it is the second time (name/type/text/cost). it will be played as what it is - just as Procession's ability "gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it" doesn't care whether it actually has the same name/type/text/cost, it looks at what the cost is now.

***
So it must go like this:
1. You play Throne Room. (Being played, Throne Room's instructions are loaded.)
2. Resolving Throne Room's first instruction, you choose BoM in your hand.
3. Throne Room's second instruction triggers two effects: play the card and play the card.
4. Resolving the first of Throne Room's triggered effects, you play BoM.
5. Resolving BoM's instructions (before you play it), you choose Feast, and also set up that it will revert to being BoM when leaving play.
6. Now you actually play Feast (being played, Feast's instructions are loaded.)
7. Resolving Feast's first instruction, you trash it.
8. When Feast is trashed, it reverts to being BoM.
9. Resolving Feast's second instruction, you gain a card costing up to $5.
10. Resolving the second of Throne Room's triggered effects, you play the card (you chose) again: the BoM which is now in trash.
11. Resolving BoM's instructions (before you play it), you choose Smithy, and also set up that it will revert to being BoM when leaving play.
12. Now you actually play Smithy (being played, Smithy's instructions are loaded.)
...

If Throne Room somehow "loaded" the chosen card's text when the effects were triggered (as opposed to resolved), then we would have the opposite problem: BoM would be "loaded" every time, since it's not played yet and so has not turned into anything else yet. So even if we played a BoM-as-Smithy, and so after the first time the card would be in play and still be a Smithy, the second effect would still be to play the card as BoM, and we could choose what to play it as again.

***

Anyway, to sum up:
- We need this rule: All instructions on a card must be followed once it is played.
- The instructions on BoM are actually resolved before playing the card.
- "Play it twice" are two simultaneous instructions to play the chosen card, which we resolve consecutively. Both times it's the chosen card, but what that card is (i.e. what name/type/text/cost it has), is checked when it's played, and not until it's played can the BoM become a Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 12:27:37 am
I think that's the best explanation I've seen for why TR-BoM(Feast) should double-Feast instead of letting you pick another effect for the second time. To sum up, the two plays of a card targeted by Throne Room happen simultaneously, and the player (vacuously) chooses the order. We already know from other interactions that two simultaneous effects can still take place in the chosen order even if the resolution of one eliminates the condition for the other: if you buy Mandarin with Royal Seal, you can top-deck Royal Seal first and then still top-deck Mandarin. So, okay, when you TR-BoM(Feast), you say "I have to play Feast, and I also have to play Feast; guess I'll play Feast first" and even though the condition for playing Feast may no longer be met by the time you get to the second one, the rules for simultaneous effects still require you to do it.

Okay. I'm satisfied by that.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 01:04:10 am
I think that's the best explanation I've seen for why TR-BoM(Feast) should double-Feast instead of letting you pick another effect for the second time. To sum up, the two plays of a card targeted by Throne Room happen simultaneously, and the player (vacuously) chooses the order. We already know from other interactions that two simultaneous effects can still take place in the chosen order even if the resolution of one eliminates the condition for the other: if you buy Mandarin with Royal Seal, you can top-deck Royal Seal first and then still top-deck Mandarin. So, okay, when you TR-BoM(Feast), you say "I have to play Feast, and I also have to play Feast; guess I'll play Feast first" and even though the condition for playing Feast may no longer be met by the time you get to the second one, the rules for simultaneous effects still require you to do it.

Well, as you can see from my post, I didn't reach that conclusion. When I realized that both plays of the Throned card happen simultaneously, I thought I would work out that I was in agreement with Donald's ruling. But then I realized that BoM's ability doesn't happen until the triggered effect from Throne Room is actually resolved and thus BoM is played. Just choosing the card doesn't trigger BoM's ability.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 01:10:37 am
If you Throned a Feast, then we should Feast twice, right? The Feast could have been something else if you'd picked something else for BoM, but you didn't.

You Throned a BoM, but BoM says "play this as if etc." So really you Throned a Feast. If that Feast vanishes - for example moving to the trash, or maybe turning into a different card wtf - we should still Feast a second time.

I dunno, that's how I see it now, we will see if anyone produces a compelling counterargument. Also again for the moment that is how funsockets works.

I think I've produced a compelling counterargument. See previous posts. Short version here in reply to what you wrote: When you Throned the BoM, you Throned it as BoM, not Feast. It doesn't turn into a Feast until you play it. Throning it triggers two effects: playing the chosen card and playing the chosen card. You resolve one first, then the other. First you play the chosen card. At that point does the chosen card's abilites trigger. BoM actually has a before-play ability that triggers then: it lets you choose another action card to play it as. You choose Feast and then the card is played as Feast. You trash it, it turns back into a BoM. You then resolve "play the chosen card" again, which is now a BoM.

Just choosing a card does not make any of its abilities trigger, unless the card had a "when you choose this" ability. BoM's before-play ability doesn't trigger when it's chosen.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 01:47:21 am
I think I've produced a compelling counterargument. See previous posts. Short version here in reply to what you wrote: When you Throned the BoM, you Throned it as BoM, not Feast. It doesn't turn into a Feast until you play it. Throning it triggers two effects: playing the chosen card and playing the chosen card. You resolve one first, then the other. First you play the chosen card. At that point does the chosen card's abilites trigger. BoM actually has a before-play ability that triggers then: it lets you choose another action card to play it as. You choose Feast and then the card is played as Feast. You trash it, it turns back into a BoM. You then resolve "play the chosen card" again, which is now a BoM.

Just choosing a card does not make any of its abilities trigger, unless the card had a "when you choose this" ability. BoM's before-play ability doesn't trigger when it's chosen.
BoM says "play this as if it were..." Throne makes you play a card. So you play BoM as if it were a Feast. That means you played a Feast. You Throned a Feast, so you Feast twice. You didn't play a BoM; that would be playing BoM as BoM, not as Feast.

You have not convinced me to change this stance. The BoM card reverts to a BoM, before the second Feast, but you didn't Throne a BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 03:02:07 am
BoM says "play this as if it were..." Throne makes you play a card. So you play BoM as if it were a Feast. That means you played a Feast. You Throned a Feast, so you Feast twice. You didn't play a BoM; that would be playing BoM as BoM, not as Feast.

You have not convinced me to change this stance. The BoM card reverts to a BoM, before the second Feast, but you didn't Throne a BoM.

But you haven't really responded to my reasoning I think. The point is the timing: triggering effects and then resolving them.
Every card's effects are first triggered and then resolved.

Throne Room's first instruction is easy, it triggers and resolves right away: you choose a card - a BoM. At this point the card chosen is not seen as anything else than a BoM by any effect in the game, because it hasn't been played. No instruction has of yet told you to play it.

Throne Room's second instruction to "play it twice" triggers two simultaneous effects (play the chosen card + play the chosen card). At the point that these effects are triggered, the card's (BoM's) effects are not triggered or resolved. First you have to actually resolve the two simultaneous effects, in any order you wish. Then, upon each resolving of the effect ("play the chosen card") you actually get to the card text of BoM, which happens when you play it. The playing of BoM triggers its before-play ability, but it doesn't trigger until you play it. It's just like when a when-would-gain ability is triggered when you gain something - it might stop the gain. In this case BoM is played, but the before-play ability interferes and makes it so another card is effectively being played instead.

If you start part-way resolving effects at the time they are triggered, and then the rest when they are actually supposed to be resolved, I think that presents a lot of chaos.

What step or which steps here do you think is actually wrong?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 03:58:52 am
Throne Room's second instruction to "play it twice" triggers two simultaneous effects (play the chosen card + play the chosen card).
Throne Room as I read it causes two sequential things to happen, not two simultaneous things. The thing that sets those two sequential things happening in motion is one thing that sets both in motion at once. But uh it's different from saying it's two simultaneous things. There's no ordering required. Well both things are the same but you know what I mean? At one moment in time, Throne Room queues up an action to be played twice in sequence. It's like uh Merchant Ship causes you to gain $2 at the start of your next turn, but the moment when it causes that to happen is when we reach that instruction when playing it, not next turn. Which would matter for Procession / Merchant Ship and man I wonder how the Germans are dealing with that since they used dividing lines on their duration cards.

In this case BoM is played, but the before-gain ability interferes and makes it so another card is effectively being played instead.
I think the key difference is that to me, you cannot play a BoM (unless no cheaper cards are in the supply). When you (try to) play it is always something else that you played. You didn't play a BoM. Anything that cares about you playing a BoM does not see that you did; you played whatever you picked instead. This is true even for Throne Room. You choose a card in your hand; you can choose BoM, that's fine. Then you play it twice and oops what you are playing twice is somehow a Feast instead. BoM is the only thing like this and well it was the only way I could see to make BoM work.

For me the important things at this point are:

- If at all possible I want the rulebook to be correct. People in general go to the rulebook, not to ds.
- If at all possible I want zero other situations in the game to be affected by how this goes.
- If at all possible I do not want to devote much time to this. I don't want anyone to feel shortchanged here, I will devote some continuing tiny amount of time to this if need be. But uh it could just be eating up hours and I do not imagine it is confusing most people or making them demand rules justice. So if some time passes here before maximum possible satisfaction is achieved, I am okay with that.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 05:14:16 am
Throne Room as I read it causes two sequential things to happen, not two simultaneous things. The thing that sets those two sequential things happening in motion is one thing that sets both in motion at once. But uh it's different from saying it's two simultaneous things. There's no ordering required. Well both things are the same but you know what I mean? At one moment in time, Throne Room queues up an action to be played twice in sequence. It's like uh Merchant Ship causes you to gain $2 at the start of your next turn, but the moment when it causes that to happen is when we reach that instruction when playing it, not next turn. Which would matter for Procession / Merchant Ship and man I wonder how the Germans are dealing with that since they used dividing lines on their duration cards.

Okay, if it's two sequential things then it's even clearer that it's not a Feast on second play. (But I'll say that the reason I concluded that "do X twice" has to trigger two simultaneous things, is that "gain two Coppers" does that. See my big post above for my reasoning and sourcing of this. I'd also argue that Merchant Ship actually sets up a later ability (it says "at your next turn") while Throne Room effectively says "now" to both effects.)

If it's simultaneous then they are both triggered, and then they get resolved in sequence. If Throne Room sets two sequential things in motion, that would mean the first is triggered and resolved, then the second is triggered and resolved. Remember, both are "play the card you chose". When the second is triggered (if the card is trashed at this point), we're definitely in the same situation as when the first one was triggered, i.e. "the card you chose" is a BoM. If this is the case, we don't even have to discuss the point below: whoever of us is right on that point, it's not a Feast on second play.

I think the key difference is that to me, you cannot play a BoM (unless no cheaper cards are in the supply). When you (try to) play it is always something else that you played. You didn't play a BoM. Anything that cares about you playing a BoM does not see that you did; you played whatever you picked instead. This is true even for Throne Room. You choose a card in your hand; you can choose BoM, that's fine. Then you play it twice and oops what you are playing twice is somehow a Feast instead. BoM is the only thing like this and well it was the only way I could see to make BoM work.

(I will reply to this presuming that Throne Room causes two simultaneous effects, because otherwise I don't see that what you're saying here is relevant.)
"You cannot play a BoM". A BoM will never end up being played, no. But as you say "you (try to) play it". To me it's the same as gaining a Copper and then not gaining a Copper anyway because I Tradered it to a Silver. I could never trigger the Trader if I didn't first resolve a gaining effect! So you need to resolve a play-BoM effect to ever trigger the BoM's ability. If you never resolve an effect that actually lets you play (or "try-to-play") it, it never lets you turn it into something else. And I'm sorry, but I cannot see how Throning a card lets you resolve what happens when that card is played both times, before you actually play either one. To reiterate, when you trigger the two effects, all Throne Room knows is that it's "the card you chose". (It also is a BoM at that point, but that doesn't really matter for anything.)

For me the important things at this point are:

- If at all possible I want the rulebook to be correct. People in general go to the rulebook, not to ds.
- If at all possible I want zero other situations in the game to be affected by how this goes.
- If at all possible I do not want to devote much time to this. I don't want anyone to feel shortchanged here, I will devote some continuing tiny amount of time to this if need be. But uh it could just be eating up hours and I do not imagine it is confusing most people or making them demand rules justice. So if some time passes here before maximum possible satisfaction is achieved, I am okay with that.

I get that, and I don't want to go in circles with you. I'm trying to be as clear as possible. For what it's worth, when I read the FAQ in the manual for BoM and it said "If you use Throne Room etc to play a BoM multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card" - I immediately figured that that probably doesn't account for cards that trash themselves, how could it.

Anyway, a big part of the reason I want to understand this is to get my huge FAQ correct on BGG, because if I'm wrong here, I must be misunderstanding something that I previously thought I understood. This is actually a pretty important part of how Dominion's timing works. When I sat down to really figure out how this would work, I actually hoped I would get to the same conclusion as you have.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 07:27:22 am
Okay, if it's two sequential things then it's even clearer that it's not a Feast on second play.
I don't see this at all. It seems like a really moot thing to be arguing; I am saying it's "now Feast twice" and you are saying it's "now Feast and simultaneously Feast." In the second case we need a timing rule and in the first we don't, otherwise they are the same.

To me it's the same as gaining a Copper and then not gaining a Copper anyway because I Tradered it to a Silver.
That seems like a reasonable way to think of it.

When it's time to play that Throne'd card a second time, we try to put into the play area, and then do what it does. BoM is the only card that may change in the middle. It makes us say, what is Throne doing exactly, and the answer only matters for this question. My initial feeling was that Throne locked in the card functionality. If you have Throned BoM's in a bunch of games, mostly it won't have been Feast, and it will have been locked in, so it will seem normal that Feast locks in, is my feeling. Well it would if you somehow heard about this ruling.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Schneau on August 28, 2012, 08:38:48 am
I think I've produced a compelling counterargument. See previous posts. Short version here in reply to what you wrote: When you Throned the BoM, you Throned it as BoM, not Feast. It doesn't turn into a Feast until you play it. Throning it triggers two effects: playing the chosen card and playing the chosen card. You resolve one first, then the other. First you play the chosen card. At that point does the chosen card's abilites trigger. BoM actually has a before-play ability that triggers then: it lets you choose another action card to play it as. You choose Feast and then the card is played as Feast. You trash it, it turns back into a BoM. You then resolve "play the chosen card" again, which is now a BoM.

Just choosing a card does not make any of its abilities trigger, unless the card had a "when you choose this" ability. BoM's before-play ability doesn't trigger when it's chosen.
BoM says "play this as if it were..." Throne makes you play a card. So you play BoM as if it were a Feast. That means you played a Feast. You Throned a Feast, so you Feast twice. You didn't play a BoM; that would be playing BoM as BoM, not as Feast.

You have not convinced me to change this stance. The BoM card reverts to a BoM, before the second Feast, but you didn't Throne a BoM.

I agree entirely with this. But, then why does Procession + BoM-as-Fortress gain a $6 card, not a $5 card? You "Processioned a Fortress". Procession never sees a BoM, as you've said here. Actually, this problem occurs with any Procession + BoM. Let's say you Procession a BoM-as-Moat. The BoM-as-Moat goes to the trash, do you get a $3 card or a $6 card. I think it should be a $3 card.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 10:09:18 am
Okay, if it's two sequential things then it's even clearer that it's not a Feast on second play.
I don't see this at all. It seems like a really moot thing to be arguing; I am saying it's "now Feast twice" and you are saying it's "now Feast and simultaneously Feast." In the second case we need a timing rule and in the first we don't, otherwise they are the same.

The timing rule already exists, though (as we know from "gain two Coppers"). And it's still hard for me to conceptualize why, if we read "play it twice" as "play it; play it again", the second iteration shouldn't discover that the played card is now a Band of Misfits, not a Feast, and (try to) play that. If the Throne Room's two plays are triggered simultaneously, that does seem to be consistent with everything else you've said about how Throne Room behaves, as well as the Procession-BoM-Fortress interaction.

Quote
When it's time to play that Throne'd card a second time, we try to put into the play area, and then do what it does. BoM is the only card that may change in the middle. It makes us say, what is Throne doing exactly, and the answer only matters for this question. My initial feeling was that Throne locked in the card functionality. If you have Throned BoM's in a bunch of games, mostly it won't have been Feast, and it will have been locked in, so it will seem normal that Feast locks in, is my feeling. Well it would if you somehow heard about this ruling.

Sure, though there are lots of cards whose effects when Throne Roomed are counterintuitive. It never would have occurred to me that Throne Room–Herbalist doesn't allow you to top-deck two treasures until I started reading online Dominion discussion.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 10:09:52 am
(This may be splitting hairs though)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: GendoIkari on August 28, 2012, 11:22:11 am
I think this entire thread needs to be made more complicated by replacing all talk of Throne Room with Band of Misfits as Throne Room.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 03:48:45 pm
I agree entirely with this. But, then why does Procession + BoM-as-Fortress gain a $6 card, not a $5 card? You "Processioned a Fortress". Procession never sees a BoM, as you've said here. Actually, this problem occurs with any Procession + BoM. Let's say you Procession a BoM-as-Moat. The BoM-as-Moat goes to the trash, do you get a $3 card or a $6 card. I think it should be a $3 card.
Because that's a separate step on Procession.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 03:51:23 pm
The timing rule already exists, though (as we know from "gain two Coppers"). And it's still hard for me to conceptualize why, if we read "play it twice" as "play it; play it again", the second iteration shouldn't discover that the played card is now a Band of Misfits, not a Feast, and (try to) play that. If the Throne Room's two plays are triggered simultaneously, that does seem to be consistent with everything else you've said about how Throne Room behaves, as well as the Procession-BoM-Fortress interaction.
It's not "play it; then play it again." It's "play it twice." Again I do not see a difference between "play it twice" and "play it twice simultaneously" except for whether you invoke the timing rule.

I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 28, 2012, 03:59:19 pm
The timing rule already exists, though (as we know from "gain two Coppers"). And it's still hard for me to conceptualize why, if we read "play it twice" as "play it; play it again", the second iteration shouldn't discover that the played card is now a Band of Misfits, not a Feast, and (try to) play that. If the Throne Room's two plays are triggered simultaneously, that does seem to be consistent with everything else you've said about how Throne Room behaves, as well as the Procession-BoM-Fortress interaction.
It's not "play it; then play it again." It's "play it twice." Again I do not see a difference between "play it twice" and "play it twice simultaneously" except for whether you invoke the timing rule.

I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.

"Play it twice" and "Play it twice simultaneously" do make a difference with cards like Pawn or Pearl Diver.  If my understanding is correct, with Pearl Diver, you draw a card, then look at the bottom, decide, then draw another card, look at the bottom again, decide again, as opposed to drawing two cards and looking at the bottom twice.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 04:03:42 pm
The timing rule already exists, though (as we know from "gain two Coppers"). And it's still hard for me to conceptualize why, if we read "play it twice" as "play it; play it again", the second iteration shouldn't discover that the played card is now a Band of Misfits, not a Feast, and (try to) play that. If the Throne Room's two plays are triggered simultaneously, that does seem to be consistent with everything else you've said about how Throne Room behaves, as well as the Procession-BoM-Fortress interaction.
It's not "play it; then play it again." It's "play it twice." Again I do not see a difference between "play it twice" and "play it twice simultaneously" except for whether you invoke the timing rule.

...I don't think you're disagreeing with me? What I'm saying is that your explanation of the meaning of "play it twice" is consistent with it meaning the same thing as "play it twice simultaneously" and isn't consistent with "play it; play it again".
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Schneau on August 28, 2012, 04:03:53 pm
I agree entirely with this. But, then why does Procession + BoM-as-Fortress gain a $6 card, not a $5 card? You "Processioned a Fortress". Procession never sees a BoM, as you've said here. Actually, this problem occurs with any Procession + BoM. Let's say you Procession a BoM-as-Moat. The BoM-as-Moat goes to the trash, do you get a $3 card or a $6 card. I think it should be a $3 card.
Because that's a separate step on Procession.

Sure, but how does Procession know it costs $5? Procession played a Fortress - it never saw a BoM, it saw a Fortress. It became a BoM when it hit the trash pile (or maybe when it hits your hand), but I feel like Procession doesn't know that it's a BoM - it thinks it's a Fortress.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: GendoIkari on August 28, 2012, 04:44:06 pm
I agree entirely with this. But, then why does Procession + BoM-as-Fortress gain a $6 card, not a $5 card? You "Processioned a Fortress". Procession never sees a BoM, as you've said here. Actually, this problem occurs with any Procession + BoM. Let's say you Procession a BoM-as-Moat. The BoM-as-Moat goes to the trash, do you get a $3 card or a $6 card. I think it should be a $3 card.
Because that's a separate step on Procession.

Sure, but how does Procession know it costs $5? Procession played a Fortress - it never saw a BoM, it saw a Fortress. It became a BoM when it hit the trash pile (or maybe when it hits your hand), but I feel like Procession doesn't know that it's a BoM - it thinks it's a Fortress.

Here's my thinking on that. Procession indeed doesn't know that BoM exists... it thinks it played a Fortress, like you say. But, it doesn't know (or care) what Fortress cost when it was played. When it gets to the "costing $1 more" step, at that time it needs to check the cost. So it goes to where Fortress now is, and checks the cost. And it sees $5. It also has now changed names, but it doesn't care about that.

Say instead of BoM, there were a card/effect in play that causes the cost to be changed in the middle of an action. It could happen... "Reaction Bridge: when a card is trashed, you may reveal this from hand. If you do, the trashed card costs $1 less until end of turn." Ok, so you play Procession on Fortress, then when Fortress is trashed, you reveal Reaction Bridge. Now, Procession needs to gain a card costing $1 more... well it checks, and Fortress now only costs $3, so that's what matters.

Man, to be honest, I don't like that interpretation. Based on the blue dog rule, I would say that "Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it" means "Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than the card that was trashed." Well, the card that was trashed cost $4 at the moment it was trashed, and I think that's all that should matter. It's not "costing $1 more than whatever the card that was trashed now costs." It's how much did the trashed card cost. But, I can live with the notion that changes in cost between the time of trashing and the time of gaining do matter.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 04:48:50 pm
But, I can live with the notion that changes in cost between the time of trashing and the time of gaining do matter.

This already (well, not with trashing) affects Smugglers.

You buy Province, I play Highway-Highway-Smugglers, I get the Province, because Smugglers doesn't care what Province cost when you gained it, only what it costs now.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: GendoIkari on August 28, 2012, 04:50:05 pm
But, I can live with the notion that changes in cost between the time of trashing and the time of gaining do matter.

This already (well, not with trashing) affects Smugglers.

You buy Province, I play Highway-Highway-Smugglers, I get the Province, because Highway doesn't care what Province cost when you gained it, only what it costs now.

Excellent point.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 06:04:54 pm
Because that's a separate step on Procession.

Sure, but how does Procession know it costs $5? Procession played a Fortress - it never saw a BoM, it saw a Fortress. It became a BoM when it hit the trash pile (or maybe when it hits your hand), but I feel like Procession doesn't know that it's a BoM - it thinks it's a Fortress.

Here's my thinking on that. Procession indeed doesn't know that BoM exists... it thinks it played a Fortress, like you say. But, it doesn't know (or care) what Fortress cost when it was played. When it gets to the "costing $1 more" step, at that time it needs to check the cost. So it goes to where Fortress now is, and checks the cost. And it sees $5. It also has now changed names, but it doesn't care about that.

To my way of looking at it, it's not that it doesn't care about the cost of the card it's playing. It could have. It could have said: "You may play an Action card costing $3 from your hand twice." Now the instruction has to check the cost in order to trigger. But once it triggers, the card you chose (whatever it was) will be played twice! Even if it changes name, text, type or cost. Procession, like Throne Room, cares about the card you chose. The actual Procession doesn't check cost, so it doesn't care about the name, text, type or cost. Just that it's the card you chose to play. That also applies in the instructions following.
"Trash it." It refers to the card you chose and then played, whatever stats it may have now.
"Gain an Action card costing exactly 1 Coin more than it." It refers to the card you chose and then played and then trashed, whatever stats it may have now.

That was the big discussion over Ironworks + Trader, or part it. A lot of people thought that Trader substituted what you gained with a Silver. If it did, then Ironwork's "if it is an..." would refer to the gained card which is now Silver. But since Trader actually cancelled the whole gaining effect and instead made you do something else (which happened to be a new gaining effect, but could have been something else), then the first part of Ironworks ("gain a card costing up to 4 Coins") hadn't happened, so "if it is an..." had nothing to refer to.

The other part of that discussion was whether "it" refered to the printed card you chose to gain (meaning for instance "Great Hall" with its type, text and cost), or it refers to the gained card. The ruling was the latter. This is the "blue dog rule" that GendoIkari talks about.

Man, to be honest, I don't like that interpretation. Based on the blue dog rule, I would say that "Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it" means "Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than the card that was trashed." Well, the card that was trashed cost $4 at the moment it was trashed, and I think that's all that should matter. It's not "costing $1 more than whatever the card that was trashed now costs." It's how much did the trashed card cost. But, I can live with the notion that changes in cost between the time of trashing and the time of gaining do matter.

I don't see that the "blue dog rule" says anything about the stats on the card it refers to. It just says that "it" is the physical card you gained. Similarly, Procession refers to the physical card you trashed. But nowhere does it say that the cost of that card (the card you trashed) that Procession now checks, was the cost when it was trashed, and not the current cost of that card. See also Smuggler, as was said.

So: We know that effects referring to a card, only check the current stats of that card. That's part of the reason that I say that Throne Room + BoM (Feast) lets you choose a new card the second time BoM is played.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 06:10:18 pm
Okay, if it's two sequential things then it's even clearer that it's not a Feast on second play.
I don't see this at all. It seems like a really moot thing to be arguing; I am saying it's "now Feast twice" and you are saying it's "now Feast and simultaneously Feast." In the second case we need a timing rule and in the first we don't, otherwise they are the same.

I don't understand most of that. If it's two sequential things, then it's "play it, then play it again". The second one isn't even triggered until after we have fully resolved the first one. And what I am saying is that it is not Feast, it's just "the card you chose". If you think I'm saying it's Feast, then it's clear you don't understand my reasoning.

I'd really wish you'd reply to what I'm concretely saying, such as this:

A) A card gives you an instruction when you play it.

B) That instruction then triggers, but isn't necessarily resolved. For instance Witch: Each other player gains a Curse. Let's say there are three other players. Whether this is three gaining effects at once, or three after each other, they have to be resolved after each other. If it's three gaining effects at once, all three effects are triggered before either one of them are resolved.

C) "Play it twice" triggers two play-card effects.

D) Either both effects are triggered at once, so that it means "play it twice, simultaneously", or one is triggered now and the other one is triggered after, so that it means "play it, then play it again". A third way of looking at it (although it seems wrong to me), since you compared to Merchant Ship, is that the second effect is now set up to happen after the first one. In that case it would be the same, the second one is triggered then resolved, after the first one is resolved.

E) In either case, the two effects have to be resolved sequentially.

F) Similar to how Tradering a Copper to a Silver can only happen when you try to gain the Copper, BoM's ability itself can't be triggered until you try to play the BoM.

G) You try to play the chosen card (the BoM) with Throne Room when the play-card effect is resolved, not when it's triggered.

H) Therefore, the BoM is not played as a Feast (in fact it's not a Feast) until you try to play the card. No matter what kind of timing we use, the second play-the-chosen-card happens after you have fully resolved the first.

You seem to be saying that even if Throne Room triggers one play-card now and one set up for later, it somehow knows that it's a Feast it's supposed to play. But at that point, when "setting up" (i.e. triggering) the effects, we haven't even chosen the Feast yet, because we haven't actually tried to play the card yet.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 06:35:55 pm
I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.
Sir Martin has pointed out that you can reason that, the second time, you get nothing; BoM is in the trash, not in play, and whatever you pick for it to be, it will instantly stop being it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 06:39:03 pm
...I don't think you're disagreeing with me? What I'm saying is that your explanation of the meaning of "play it twice" is consistent with it meaning the same thing as "play it twice simultaneously" and isn't consistent with "play it; play it again".
This continues to feel moot. We simultaneously trigger two plays of it. But we don't simultaneously trigger two plays of it at the same time. We simultaneously trigger two plays of it in sequence. It's identical except that you don't get to pick what order to do the two identical things.

We simultaneously commit to playing Feast at 1 PM and playing Feast at 2 PM. We don't commit to playing Feast twice at 1 PM and then push one back due to the scheduling conflict. We also don't play Feast at 1 PM, then see what we want to do next and realize it's playing Feast again.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 28, 2012, 06:45:58 pm
I'd really wish you'd reply to what I'm concretely saying, such as this:
Sorry, I do not feel like I have been dodging anything.

A) A card gives you an instruction when you play it.
Not all instructions happen when cards are played. For example Peddler has a rule that functions when it's in the supply.

G) You try to play the chosen card (the BoM) with Throne Room when the play-card effect is resolved, not when it's triggered.
Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card. Similarly Trader happens *before* gaining.

H) Therefore, the BoM is not played as a Feast (in fact it's not a Feast) until you try to play the card. No matter what kind of timing we use, the second play-the-chosen-card happens after you have fully resolved the first.
BoM was played as Feast, I don't imagine the card can work otherwise. With Trader, you gained Silver, not the Copper bought, in no sense did you gain Copper.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 07:23:13 pm
I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.
Sir Martin has pointed out that you can reason that, the second time, you get nothing; BoM is in the trash, not in play, and whatever you pick for it to be, it will instantly stop being it.

The text of BoM isn't "while this is in play"; it's "until this leaves play". So really you might think that, instead of instantly stopping being what you pick, it'll actually stay what you pick forever (or until some wacky Graverobber shenanigans... which is absolute madness).
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 28, 2012, 07:26:03 pm
Man, I do not know why you guys have to make this so complicated.  Donald's explanation makes sense.  Think of it like a program: when a card is played, its instructions are loaded into the game state and executed to the extent possible.  TR just instructs you to execute those instructions to the extent possible twice. 

In this model, BoM simply has no instructions to execute upon play.  It immediately adopts the information of some other card when it's played, and that other card's instructions are loaded up and executed.  In this case, that other card is a feast.  Because of the TR, the feast's instructions are executed twice.  It doesn't matter that the BoM reverts to a BoM when it's in the trash.  The feast's instructions were already loaded up to be played twice. 

There is no synchronicity issue here.  Cards don't get played from the trash.  More specifically, when you TR a feast, you do NOT "play it once, and then play it again from the trash".  You just play it twice.  The first time you gain a card and trash the feast, and the second time you just gain a card, because you can't trash the feast if it's already in the trash.  It doesn't matter if the feast magically morphed into a unicorn when it hit the trash.

Now, if you had some hypothetical card that said "You may play an Action card from your hand twice. Trash it. Gain an Action card costing exactly $1 more than it." then it should matter that the BoM reverted to $5 in the trash, because when you execute these instructions, you look at the card in the trash to find its price.  Oh look, we do have that card, it's called procession, and that's exactly how it works.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 07:36:24 pm
Sorry, I do not feel like I have been dodging anything.

I'm sure you haven't on purpose, but you have though. :)

G) You try to play the chosen card (the BoM) with Throne Room when the play-card effect is resolved, not when it's triggered.
Treating it like Trader, when you *would* play Band of Misfits, you *instead* play another card. That happens *before* playing the card. Similarly Trader happens *before* gaining.

Yes, agreed. But it still doesn't happen until you get to the part when you resolve the play-card effect!

Take Trader and Possession. Both have a when-would-gain effect. Let's say you are Possessed, and you have a Trader, and you gain a Province. Possession's when-would-gain now triggers, but let's say you are made to reveal Trader before Possession's effect resolves. Now you gain a Silver and not a Province. Possession's effect triggers and resolves on the Silver, so the Possessor gains it instead. Possession's effect still needs to be resolved on the Province though. The Possessor was hoping to get that Province too. But the effect that was actually triggered was referring to a specific card (a Province) that was being gained at the moment. It's no longer being gained, so that ability doesn't work.

The point is that Possession's effect (triggered on the Province gain) was triggered, but failed when it was resolved. So a triggered effect doesn't necessarily happen according to how the conditions were when it was triggered. Throne Room triggers two effects, but resolves them after each other. That much we agree on I think. It's when the effect resolves that we *would* play the card, not when it's triggered! And at that point we check the card.

H) Therefore, the BoM is not played as a Feast (in fact it's not a Feast) until you try to play the card. No matter what kind of timing we use, the second play-the-chosen-card happens after you have fully resolved the first.
BoM was played as Feast, I don't imagine the card can work otherwise. With Trader, you gained Silver, not the Copper bought, in no sense did you gain Copper.

I'm not saying that you played BoM either. I'm saying that you chose BoM. Then you tried to play BoM and it turns out you played Feast. Then you tried to play the card again and now it matters what it is. If it's a BoM, you tried to play BoM and it turns out you played [action card].
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 07:45:30 pm
Man, I do not know why you guys have to make this so complicated.  Donald's explanation makes sense.  Think of it like a program: when a card is played, its instructions are loaded into the game state and executed to the extent possible.  TR just instructs you to execute those instructions to the extent possible twice. 

Yes, but the instructions are not "play Feast twice", it's "play it twice". I can't be "play Feast twice" because you haven't chosen Feast yet! What it actually is, is "play the chosen card twice". Then you play it. Then, after that, you play it again.

The first time you play it (BoM), you actually just "try to play" it. What you actually end up playing is Feast. At this point the second "play the chosen card" is already queued up to happen, but doesn't change in any way just because you chose Feast now! When you actually get to the second "play the chosen card", it all depends on what that card is now. Almost always it's still the first card you chose to play (e.g. Smithy), because it's still in play. But in the case of Feast, it's now not Feast. The second "play the chosen card" cannot know that it was Feast, and doesn't care. It just cares about playing the card. If the card is a BoM, then again you will "try to play" it and instead play something else.

Maybe that was as clearly as I've ever said it. :)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 28, 2012, 07:48:00 pm
I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.
Sir Martin has pointed out that you can reason that, the second time, you get nothing; BoM is in the trash, not in play, and whatever you pick for it to be, it will instantly stop being it.

The text of BoM isn't "while this is in play"; it's "until this leaves play". So really you might think that, instead of instantly stopping being what you pick, it'll actually stay what you pick forever (or until some wacky Graverobber shenanigans... which is absolute madness).

If it is no longer in play, one would assume that it left play at some point.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 28, 2012, 07:54:12 pm
I will see if my playtesters want to comment on Throne + BoM + Feast.
Sir Martin has pointed out that you can reason that, the second time, you get nothing; BoM is in the trash, not in play, and whatever you pick for it to be, it will instantly stop being it.

The text of BoM isn't "while this is in play"; it's "until this leaves play". So really you might think that, instead of instantly stopping being what you pick, it'll actually stay what you pick forever (or until some wacky Graverobber shenanigans... which is absolute madness).

If it is no longer in play, one would assume that it left play at some point.

But if BoM were to be played as Feast and then not enter play (because of the lose-track principle), then it never leaves play after becoming Feast and therefore never turns back into BoM. (Which is madness.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 28, 2012, 08:14:06 pm
But if BoM were to be played as Feast and then not enter play (because of the lose-track principle), then it never leaves play after becoming Feast and therefore never turns back into BoM. (Which is madness.)

Cards aren't played from the trash.  I feel like this is the central confusion of the whole argument.  You guys are acting like cards can be played from the trash, but they can't.  The only reason you get a second card from TR/Feast is that the Feast's instructions linger momentarily in the game state.  Look, you can argue the semantics here forever.  (In fact, you seem to be on your way already!)  But if you simply accept that cards don't get played from the trash, then this whole issue disappears. 

When you "Choose an action card in your hand. Play it twice.", you're just getting caught up on the fact that you choose a BoM but play a Feast.  But that's exactly what happens.  That's how BoM works.  When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice.  You don't play the BoM again from the trash. 

I understand your semantic argument.  It is self-consistent, and it would be a viable way to interpret the rules.  But Donald's ruling is also self-consistent, and it's also a perfectly valid way to interpret the language on the cards.  Since he's the game designer, as long as his rules do not contradict themselves, they are the rules of the game.  If you are playing with your friends and you want to play BoM your way, you're free to do so.  But the official rules do make sense.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 08:39:34 pm
Cards aren't played from the trash.  I feel like this is the central confusion of the whole argument.  You guys are acting like cards can be played from the trash, but they can't.  The only reason you get a second card from TR/Feast is that the Feast's instructions linger momentarily in the game state.  Look, you can argue the semantics here forever.  (In fact, you seem to be on your way already!)  But if you simply accept that cards don't get played from the trash, then this whole issue disappears. 

When you "Choose an action card in your hand. Play it twice.", you're just getting caught up on the fact that you choose a BoM but play a Feast.  But that's exactly what happens.  That's how BoM works.  When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice.  You don't play the BoM again from the trash. 

I understand your semantic argument.  It is self-consistent, and it would be a viable way to interpret the rules.  But Donald's ruling is also self-consistent, and it's also a perfectly valid way to interpret the language on the cards.  Since he's the game designer, as long as his rules do not contradict themselves, they are the rules of the game.  If you are playing with your friends and you want to play BoM your way, you're free to do so.  But the official rules do make sense.

It seems like this was more of a reply to me than to AJD.

You are saying that a card which is in the trash can't be played. Where is your justification for that? So are you saying that a card "Choose a card from your hand. Play it. Play it." can't play it the second time if you choose Feast? Because I am saying that that card is functionally equivalent to Throne Room. Now do you see?

You say "When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice".
But you're totally ignoring how triggering works in Dominion. You think that you can play a card twice before actually resolving what that card does. You can't. You have to wait until you've resolved it once before you can play it again. It seems even clearer to me now.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Garth One-eye on August 28, 2012, 08:48:28 pm


You are saying that a card which is in the trash can't be played. Where is your justification for that? So are you saying that a card "Choose a card from your hand. Play it. Play it." can't play it the second time if you choose Feast? Because I am saying that that card is functionally equivalent to Throne Room. Now do you see?

You say "When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice".
But you're totally ignoring how triggering works in Dominion. You think that you can play a card twice before actually resolving what that card does. You can't. You have to wait until you've resolved it once before you can play it again. It seems even clearer to me now.

I would argue that alternate Throne Room ( choose a card. Play it. Play it.) is different from regular Throne Room and wouldn't let you double feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 09:02:00 pm
It seems like a common way of thinking about Throne Room is that the instruction "play it twice" immediately causes it to "load" the card text of the chosen card, and then play that card, moving it to the play area, and then execute the card text twice in a row.

If that was really how it was, then that would mean that BoM doesn't work like it should at all. Think about it. What card text would Throne Room actually load? It's loading it before the card is being played, remember? Yeah, it would be BoM's card text. That would mean that it would execute BoM's card text twice, no matter what. Even if we chose to play BoM-as-Smithy the first time.

No, in order for Throne Room to play Smithy twice (after you chose BoM), it can't load any card text before the card is actually played. Which is what you would expect anyway, anything else is inventing new rules.


I would argue that alternate Throne Room ( choose a card. Play it. Play it.) is different from regular Throne Room and wouldn't let you double feast.

Why? I have explained several times how they are functionally equivalent. Donald has also said that the two effects of playing the card are queued up to happen twice in sequence. No matter how you define the timing here, the end result must be that the two effects (play the card) are resolved one after the other.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 28, 2012, 09:17:43 pm
You are saying that a card which is in the trash can't be played. Where is your justification for that?

My justification is simply consistency.  That statement, that cards cannot be played from the trash, is consistent with all Dominion rules, including the new ones.  Your idea, while self-consistent, is different from these rules, which are also self-consistent.  If you were the creator of Dominion, you could have printed these same cards and ruled them the way you are putting forth.  But you're not the creator of Dominion, so you don't get that chance, at least not for the official rules.

You say "When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice".
But you're totally ignoring how triggering works in Dominion. You think that you can play a card twice before actually resolving what that card does. You can't. You have to wait until you've resolved it once before you can play it again. It seems even clearer to me now.

I'm not ignoring how triggering works in Dominion.  You "load up" a card's instructions into the game state before you play it the first time.  Then you resolve those instructions twice.  That is how it has worked so far, and that is self-consistent and consistent with all Donald's rulings to date.

It seems like a common way of thinking about Throne Room is that the instruction "play it twice" immediately causes it to "load" the card text of the chosen card, and then play that card, moving it to the play area, and then execute the card text twice in a row.

If that was really how it was, then that would mean that BoM doesn't work like it should at all. Think about it. What card text would Throne Room actually load? It's loading it before the card is being played, remember? Yeah, it would be BoM's card text. That would mean that it would execute BoM's card text twice, no matter what. Even if we chose to play BoM-as-Smithy the first time.

No, in order for Throne Room to play Smithy twice (after you chose BoM), it can't load any card text before the card is actually played. Which is what you would expect anyway, anything else is inventing new rules.

Let me ask you this question: What does it mean to play a card? 

According to the rule book, "To play an Action, the player takes an Action card from his hand and lays it face up in his play area.  He announces which card he is playing and follows the instructions written on that card from top to bottom."

Notice that it specifically mentions that playing a card involves taking the card from your hand.  Now, Throne room tells you to "play" a card twice.  By your assertion, if I TR (say) a smithy, the TR must first completely resolve the first playing of the smithy, and then attempt to play it again.  But that immediately fails, because that smithy isn't in my hand anymore -- it's on the table.  So how do I play it again?  Do I just put it back in my hand?  Nobody thinks that's the case.

The only consistent explanation is that I loaded up the smithy instructions when I took it out of my hand, and then I proceeded to evaluate those instructions twice.

As for how this works with BoM: BoM has no instructions.  It has card text, but it has no gameplay instructions.  Indeed, the card text tells you that when you play this card, it assumes the instructions of some other card, and that other card's instructions are loaded up and evaluated.  In the case of TR, those instructions are evaluated twice.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 28, 2012, 09:20:30 pm
It seems like a common way of thinking about Throne Room is that the instruction "play it twice" immediately causes it to "load" the card text of the chosen card, and then play that card, moving it to the play area, and then execute the card text twice in a row.

If that was really how it was, then that would mean that BoM doesn't work like it should at all. Think about it. What card text would Throne Room actually load? It's loading it before the card is being played, remember? Yeah, it would be BoM's card text. That would mean that it would execute BoM's card text twice, no matter what. Even if we chose to play BoM-as-Smithy the first time.

No, in order for Throne Room to play Smithy twice (after you chose BoM), it can't load any card text before the card is actually played. Which is what you would expect anyway, anything else is inventing new rules.


I would argue that alternate Throne Room ( choose a card. Play it. Play it.) is different from regular Throne Room and wouldn't let you double feast.

Why? I have explained several times how they are functionally equivalent. Donald has also said that the two effects of playing the card are queued up to happen twice in sequence. No matter how you define the timing here, the end result must be that the two effects (play the card) are resolved one after the other.

BoM itself loads up instructions.

So you play TR and choose BoM.

TR tries to load BoM instructions.  As a result, BoM also loads instructions for whatever you want to play it as.  You choose Feast.  Instructions load to BoM which subsequently load to TR.  Feast is played twice.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 28, 2012, 11:51:06 pm
You are saying that a card which is in the trash can't be played. Where is your justification for that?

My justification is simply consistency.  That statement, that cards cannot be played from the trash, is consistent with all Dominion rules, including the new ones.  Your idea, while self-consistent, is different from these rules, which are also self-consistent.  If you were the creator of Dominion, you could have printed these same cards and ruled them the way you are putting forth.  But you're not the creator of Dominion, so you don't get that chance, at least not for the official rules.

Everything I've said is consistent with all Dominion rules. And I've backed it up pretty thoroughly. I don't see that you have done the same. The trash is just a place that a card can be. A card doesn't have to be any special place for it to be played. When TR tells you to play the card the second time it doesn't have to be in your hand. Just look at how Golem works, and you realize you are wrong. It plays a card that isn't in your hand. So does Venture for that matter, it's just a Treasure card. Playing a Treasure is the same as playing an Action, it's taken from your hand and placed in your play area. This is even stated in the Dark Ages rules: "If the card cannot be moved into the play area, the instructions on it are still followed."

You say "When you play it, it becomes a Feast, and you play the Feast twice".
But you're totally ignoring how triggering works in Dominion. You think that you can play a card twice before actually resolving what that card does. You can't. You have to wait until you've resolved it once before you can play it again. It seems even clearer to me now.

I'm not ignoring how triggering works in Dominion.  You "load up" a card's instructions into the game state before you play it the first time.  Then you resolve those instructions twice.  That is how it has worked so far, and that is self-consistent and consistent with all Donald's rulings to date.

"So far" there has been nothing that has cared about exactly how TR times the "loading" and the executing of the instructions of the chosen cards. But there has certainly been many cases of triggering. See what I wrote about Which. See my example of Trader's and Possession's when-would-gain effects. The fact is that the game state doesn't "load" the instructions until the playing of the card is being resolved, not at the time that that effect is triggered. There's just no way around this. Respond to how this is different to the Trader/Possession example if you don't agree.

I'll spell it out for you.

TR triggers two effects. Both are "play the chosen card". Neither of them are resolved yet, meaning we haven't triggered the ability on the actual chosen card yet. You say that at this point we take one of those effects (the first one but I assume you said that because they are the same so it doesn't matter), drill down into that effect's instruction to look at the chosen card that is to be played and load that card's instructions. That way "play the chosen card" becomes "play Feast". (How it becomes Feast without BoM's card text actually being resolved is done by some further trickery, which I adress at the bottom of this post.) I say there is nothing anywhere to suggest that we should do this. This isn't normally how effects are triggered, even when those effects will eventuelly tell us to play a card.

Golem tells us to play two action cards that we have revealed "in either order". The "play the revealed card" instructions are both triggered now but we choose the order to resolve them. According to you that would mean that the instructions (on both cards) are loaded into the game state now, before we get to playing either card. What if one of them was a BoM, and we chose to play that last? That would mean, according to your reasoning, that we would have to choose what to play the BoM as now, before we actually started playing either card. Obviously I don't think that's correct.

Getting back to how this compares to Possession's when-would-gain effect. The effect to "gain the card that he gained instead of him gaining it" is triggered when he gains the Province. It's not resolved yet. What should we do now with that effect? We should load it in the game state, I guess, based in the game conditions right now, so that it will be resolved no matter what happens later. So that even when he didn't end up gaining a Province, the Possessor still gains it, because it was saved in the game state. But in fact this is the opposite of what the rules tell us to do. The only thing in the game state should be that triggered effect, waiting to be resolved, and when it's resolved it's according to the game conditions at that time.

Let me ask you this question: What does it mean to play a card? 

I answered this above.

As for how this works with BoM: BoM has no instructions.  It has card text, but it has no gameplay instructions.

I've already established that BoM works as a before-play ability, which is the same as saying that it functionally reads:
"When you would play this, play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose.
This is that card until it leaves play."

Donald has expressed that he agrees with this. But these are gameplay instructions! You have to play the card to trigger them! The instructions just don't trigger by you having it in your hand, or choosing it because a card (TR) tells you to choose it. They also don't trigger by an effect to play it being triggered. They trigger by an effect to play it being resolved.

In order for the official interpretation to be correct, we have to attach more special meaning to BoM's ability. Maybe a when-chosen ability: "When this card is chosen to be played, choose an Action card in the Supply costing less than it. This is that card until it leaves play." Or just introduce a rule specifically adressing TR/KC/Procession, like amending the statement from the FAQ to say that the other times you play it it's still copying the same card even if it has left play. That would be a rule overriding what the general Dominion rules combined with TR's and BoM's abilities say. I suspect that's what we're gonna have to do.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 29, 2012, 12:03:49 am
Golem tells us to play two action cards that we have revealed "in either order". The "play the revealed card" instructions are both triggered now but we choose the order to resolve them. According to you that would mean that the instructions (on both cards) are loaded into the game state now, before we get to playing either card. What if one of them was a BoM, and we chose to play that last? That would mean, according to your reasoning, that we would have to choose what to play the BoM as now, before we actually started playing either card. Obviously I don't think that's correct.

I suspect you're right—Golem into BoM, if you choose to play BoM second you don't choose what card BoM is until after resolving the first action—since the way Donald is ruling on most of these is "resolve BoM the way that would be obvious to resolve it if you didn't actually think about the rules that much"; but I'm confused enough that I'm not totally confident of that.

(Golem into Smithy and BoM; play Smithy first; if you draw your Mountebank then pick something for BoM to be that will give you +action? Or: Golem into Ironworks and BoM; say BoM is Caravan, but play Ironworks first, gaining the last Caravan from the supply?)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 29, 2012, 12:32:00 am
Sir Martin has pointed out that you can reason that, the second time, you get nothing; BoM is in the trash, not in play, and whatever you pick for it to be, it will instantly stop being it.

The text of BoM isn't "while this is in play"; it's "until this leaves play". So really you might think that, instead of instantly stopping being what you pick, it'll actually stay what you pick forever (or until some wacky Graverobber shenanigans... which is absolute madness).

Whoops, missed this. Yes, if I'm correct that you can pick another card when the BoM is trashed, then the BoM can't actually enter play that time. Hadn't thought of the repercussions from that. As AJD said, ruling that "until this leaves play" never happens is madness, so for sanity's sake we must say that it happens instantly, so you get nothing..!

Not especially intuitive or desirable I think. I'm starting to think that the best thing would be to keep the current ruling, although I don't agree that it follows naturally from existing rules or rulings. But saying that playing TR/KC/Procession on a BoM is a special case seems like a good option.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 29, 2012, 12:58:54 am
Not sure if you're still arguing about this (tl;dr), but I think the whole point of what happens to a TR'd BoM acting as a Feast is rather moot - you buy/play Feast when you desperately need $5 cards - BoM is a $5 card - why would you trash a perfectly good $5 card... just to get another one?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: dondon151 on August 29, 2012, 01:02:13 am
Highway into Provinces!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 29, 2012, 01:12:26 am
Not sure if you're still arguing about this (tl;dr), but I think the whole point of what happens to a TR'd BoM acting as a Feast is rather moot - you buy/play Feast when you desperately need $5 cards - BoM is a $5 card - why would you trash a perfectly good $5 card... just to get another one?

They're not talking about just BoM-as-feast.  They're talking about TR-BoM-as-feast.  Trash your single BoM to get two BoM.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 29, 2012, 01:28:35 am
(Also, if you prefer, we could be talking about BoM-as-Embargo, which is maybe a little more likely.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: zahlman on August 29, 2012, 01:39:13 am
Well you know... I've played games where using Feast to gain Feast (whether or not TR/KCd) repeatedly, to run out the pile and end the game, seemed like a valid strategic idea... so...
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 29, 2012, 02:52:29 am
Whoops, missed this. Yes, if I'm correct that you can pick another card when the BoM is trashed, then the BoM can't actually enter play that time. Hadn't thought of the repercussions from that. As AJD said, ruling that "until this leaves play" never happens is madness, so for sanity's sake we must say that it happens instantly, so you get nothing..!

Not especially intuitive or desirable I think. I'm starting to think that the best thing would be to keep the current ruling, although I don't agree that it follows naturally from existing rules or rulings. But saying that playing TR/KC/Procession on a BoM is a special case seems like a good option.
I am actually coming around to the idea that the combination of your reasoning plus Sir Martin's is the most direct interpretation of the existing rules. And BoM's end-condition must be "once this is no longer in play" rather than "when this goes from being in play to not," so yes, BoM would do nothing the second time.

I don't imagine anyone would possibly play it that way though. No-one will think of that on their own, and it isn't in the rulebook. If it came up irl, I think most people would blindly Feast twice without realizing there was a puzzle to think about, since they're used to how Throne + Feast works. If it came up online I think people would just complain that there was a bug, where was my second Feast, I should have won that game.

So uh I dunno. Let us take it as given that there is a good line of reasoning for BoM giving you nothing the second time in this situation, and perhaps shift the conversation to, is that such a good thing, is it maybe better to special-case this, especially given that the change has no repercussions for any other situations.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: engineer on August 29, 2012, 03:25:23 am
Getting back to how this compares to Possession's when-would-gain effect. The effect to "gain the card that he gained instead of him gaining it" is triggered when he gains the Province. It's not resolved yet. What should we do now with that effect? We should load it in the game state, I guess, based in the game conditions right now, so that it will be resolved no matter what happens later. So that even when he didn't end up gaining a Province, the Possessor still gains it, because it was saved in the game state. But in fact this is the opposite of what the rules tell us to do. The only thing in the game state should be that triggered effect, waiting to be resolved, and when it's resolved it's according to the game conditions at that time.

I can tell that you've thought about this much more than I have, but I don't see how your possession/trader example pokes a hole in my model.  I think we are in agreement on how this plays out: You get to choose the order to resolve these effects, since they trigger simultaneously.  That's part of the rules of the game.  The game state is changed by whichever effect you choose to resolve first, and this changes the consequences of the second triggered effect -- in this case, rendering the triggered possession effect moot. 

This doesn't conflict with my model of game-state instruction loading, at least as far as I can see.  Both instructions are loaded up, and both are triggered, and then both act on the changing game state in whatever order you prefer, as spelled out in the rules.  If you play the Trader trigger first, then the Possession only gets you a silver, since your buddy would no longer gain a Province.  I agree that the game state can change between triggering and resolution.  But that doesn't mean that you have to wait to load the instructions up.

I do agree that Golem is a stronger argument against this model, though.  In order to maintain my model and retain the behavior that we agree should happen (i.e. if you play BoM second, you choose what it will be after playing the 1st action), I'd have to admit that the wording on golem "play the action cards in either order" is somehow different than Throne room's "play it twice."  That would mean that the alternate throne room ("Play it.  Play it again") is also different from the real TR, and alternate-TR/Feast would only get you one card, because the Feast is in the trash on the second attempted play.  Even if we allow cards to be played from the trash (such that alternate-TR/Feast gains you two cards again), this model still requires a distinction between the wording of TR and the wording of Golem.

I admit this is a weak position for my model to hold.  I'm not a big fan of differentiating between "play it twice" and "play it.  Play it again". 

As I said before, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with your logic.  It is self-consistent.  But it does disagree with Donald's TR/BoM[Feast] ruling.  So you either have to make a special exception, or you have to change your logic in a way such that Donald's ruling is consistent with it.  I am attempting to do the latter.  At this point, though, you've got Donald agreeing that a special exception may be the way to go, so perhaps your model will be the better one to use going forward.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 29, 2012, 03:51:44 am
I can tell that you've thought about this much more than I have, but I don't see how your possession/trader example pokes a hole in my model.

Well, it was an attempt to show both that game state can change between triggering and resolution (which I see you agree on) and that we shouldn't "load" anymore into the game state upon triggering than what the actual triggered effect says. Actually the last part might not have been the clearest argument. But I won't go further into that anyway.

I don't imagine anyone would possibly play it that way though. No-one will think of that on their own, and it isn't in the rulebook. If it came up irl, I think most people would blindly Feast twice without realizing there was a puzzle to think about, since they're used to how Throne + Feast works. If it came up online I think people would just complain that there was a bug, where was my second Feast, I should have won that game.

So uh I dunno. Let us take it as given that there is a good line of reasoning for BoM giving you nothing the second time in this situation, and perhaps shift the conversation to, is that such a good thing, is it maybe better to special-case this, especially given that the change has no repercussions for any other situations.

I think some will think it will work like that, but mostly rules-nerds like me who have been studying how Dominion's timing works. For sure far more will happily double Feast. Actually I take that back, even I didn't realize at first that you'd get nothing the second time, I just thought you'd get to play it as another Action card. :p And so did everyone else in the forums arguing the same thing, I think.

So I for one don't think it's good that you would get nothing the second time.
I'd be for saying this (from the FAQ): If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card [added:] even if it has left play.

As far as I can see this can arise with the following card combinations: TR/KC/Procession + BoM + any of these cards: Feast, Mining Village, Embargo, Death Cart, Pillage, any of the Knights
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 29, 2012, 09:35:11 am
Whoops, missed this. Yes, if I'm correct that you can pick another card when the BoM is trashed, then the BoM can't actually enter play that time. Hadn't thought of the repercussions from that. As AJD said, ruling that "until this leaves play" never happens is madness, so for sanity's sake we must say that it happens instantly, so you get nothing..!

Not especially intuitive or desirable I think. I'm starting to think that the best thing would be to keep the current ruling, although I don't agree that it follows naturally from existing rules or rulings. But saying that playing TR/KC/Procession on a BoM is a special case seems like a good option.
I am actually coming around to the idea that the combination of your reasoning plus Sir Martin's is the most direct interpretation of the existing rules. And BoM's end-condition must be "once this is no longer in play" rather than "when this goes from being in play to not," so yes, BoM would do nothing the second time.

I actually don't buy this. If BoM is already in the trash and you're tryint to play it as Feast or something, two things should happen: (a) you play it as Feast, and (b) the card is Feast while in play. The card doesn't enter the play area, so (b) doesn't happen, but I don't see why (a) shouldn't happen—playing it as Feast needn't be dependent on the card actually becoming or remaining Feast for any length of time.

(This is not so different from the BoM-as-Feast situation with no Throne Room. You play BoM as Feast and try to follow this instructions: So you go (1), trash it. At this point the card reverts to a BoM in the trash, but you don't go, What's step 2? I was in the middle of playing a Feast but now there's no Feast anymore so I'll have to stop resolving it! ...Even though the Feast has reverted back to BoM, you stlll finish resolving the effects of Feast. This suggests that the card doesn't have to remain as Feast for Feast's effects to happen, which I think should extend to the case where it starts in the trash.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 29, 2012, 10:45:40 am
I play Throne Room.  Okay, that means I have to pick an Action from my hand.

I choose Band of Misfits.  Now, Band of Misfits' clause says "Play this as..." not "When you play this..." so I have to pick something for Band of Misfits to turn into before it hits the ground.  I choose Feast.

Throne Room sees a Feast.  Guess we're playing Feast twice!

"Feast" trashes itself and gains a $5 card (let's say another Band of Misfits).

Second time around, the card that Throne Room was playing has disappeared (from Throne Room's perspective), so it has lost track of it.  However, Throne Room was told to play Feast twice.  So by gum it's going to play Feast again.  There's nothing to trash, but you gain another $5 card (let's say yet another Band of Misfits).

The fact that Feast turns back into Band of Misfits when it hits the trash means nothing.  Throne Room isn't looking at the trash.  Throne Room doesn't care about the trash.  Throne Room cares what the card said WHEN IT WAS THRONE ROOM'D.  And neither Feast nor Band of Misfits have a "If you trash this..." clause, so Throne Room doesn't care.

Therefore, Throne Room-> Band of Misfits (Feast) should trash Band of Misfits and gain you two cards costing up to $5.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 29, 2012, 11:35:39 am
Second time around, the card that Throne Room was playing has disappeared (from Throne Room's perspective), so it has lost track of it.  However, Throne Room was told to play Feast twice.  So by gum it's going to play Feast again.

The lose-track principle only applies to moving a card from one location to another, not to knowing what a card's name is or what would happen if you played it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Fuu on August 29, 2012, 11:43:18 am
Having read the entire thread I don't see why there is such an issue here. I think it would be really sad if some kind of special ruling was deemed necessary, the situation does not seem so complex.

Perhaps you can make a compelling argument that you don't get to BoM-Feast twice, or that when you Procession-BoM you don't get to replace your trashed BoM with a $6 action. However, I really cannot see that it is intuitive to play that way. Firstly, and by my count most importantly, I do not think it is in the spirit of the cards played to deny the second Feast - it seems counterintuitive; if I was playing a game with someone who insisted that I couldn't Feast twice, I'm not sure I'd be having such an enjoyable game with them (the same holds for Procession-BoM: ultimately I trashed and (at least for now) lost ownership of BoM, so I should replace it with a $1 higher cost action). Secondly, while you can argue along those lines, you can argue at least as consistently (to my mind, more so, but each to their own) along the lines of the rules as they are, which seem perfectly self-consistent, in addition to being intuitively what one would expect.

BoM is a really cool concept, and I think it should be played intuitively and not mired in this kind of rules bureaucracy, which can only lessen the enjoyment of playing BoM. You're free to play your own house rule variants if you really take objection to the rules, but please let's not get some kind of special ruling here.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 29, 2012, 11:54:52 am
On a side note, an interesting way to counter a player going heavy on the Bands of Misfits would be to run out a strategic supply pile - for instance, maybe the only Village on the board.  Then he's stuck with a bunch of dead cards.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Hockey Mask on August 29, 2012, 01:19:49 pm
I've heard both sides so much I don't even know which is the correct ruling anymore.  Tell me how to play it and I'll do it that way.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 29, 2012, 01:24:29 pm
On a side note, an interesting way to counter a player going heavy on the Bands of Misfits would be to run out a strategic supply pile - for instance, maybe the only Village on the board.  Then he's stuck with a bunch of dead cards.

I think BoM is a trap unless there are multiple useful targets.  If running out a single pile screws over the BoM player, that player should have just bought that card instead of BoM.  OTOH, maybe you already managed to scoop the majority of a key card and the otehr player is desperately using BoM to fill the gap.  In that case, your strategy dead on. :)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Insomniac on August 29, 2012, 01:26:38 pm
On a side note, an interesting way to counter a player going heavy on the Bands of Misfits would be to run out a strategic supply pile - for instance, maybe the only Village on the board.  Then he's stuck with a bunch of dead cards.

I think BoM is a trap unless there are multiple useful targets.  If running out a single pile screws over the BoM player, that player should have just bought that card instead of BoM.  OTOH, maybe you already managed to scoop the majority of a key card and the otehr player is desperately using BoM to fill the gap.  In that case, your strategy dead on. :)

Some boards it is a trap for sure, but on some boards its a superb way to build an engine for example, On a village+smithy board. need a village Boms got your back, need that smithy? Bom has ya covered. already drawn your deck, copy something that gives you cash or buys if available.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 29, 2012, 01:26:52 pm
I've heard both sides so much I don't even know which is the correct ruling anymore.  Tell me how to play it and I'll do it that way.

TR-BoM locks in the BoM choice, even if BoM gets trashed in the process.  TR-BoM(Feast) is the same as TR-Feast.

Procession-BoM similarly locks in the BoM choice, but when the card is trashed by Procession you will gain a card costing $6, based on BoM's price, rather than the price of whatever BoM was acting as.  (Is that how it works for anything BoM mimics?  I think the specific example being thrown around is Fortress.)
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: eHalcyon on August 29, 2012, 01:30:24 pm
On a side note, an interesting way to counter a player going heavy on the Bands of Misfits would be to run out a strategic supply pile - for instance, maybe the only Village on the board.  Then he's stuck with a bunch of dead cards.

I think BoM is a trap unless there are multiple useful targets.  If running out a single pile screws over the BoM player, that player should have just bought that card instead of BoM.  OTOH, maybe you already managed to scoop the majority of a key card and the otehr player is desperately using BoM to fill the gap.  In that case, your strategy dead on. :)

Some boards it is a trap for sure, but on some boards its a superb way to build an engine for example, On a village+smithy board. need a village Boms got your back, need that smithy? Bom has ya covered. already drawn your deck, copy something that gives you cash or buys if available.

Yeah, but then there are two good targets and you'll probably want to buy regular Villages too.  Smithy is less likely to pile so it would make sense to buy extra Villages and use BoM as Smithy, Village when it needs to be.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 29, 2012, 01:38:24 pm
I actually don't buy this. If BoM is already in the trash and you're tryint to play it as Feast or something, two things should happen: (a) you play it as Feast, and (b) the card is Feast while in play. The card doesn't enter the play area, so (b) doesn't happen, but I don't see why (a) shouldn't happen—playing it as Feast needn't be dependent on the card actually becoming or remaining Feast for any length of time.

(This is not so different from the BoM-as-Feast situation with no Throne Room. You play BoM as Feast and try to follow this instructions: So you go (1), trash it. At this point the card reverts to a BoM in the trash, but you don't go, What's step 2? I was in the middle of playing a Feast but now there's no Feast anymore so I'll have to stop resolving it! ...Even though the Feast has reverted back to BoM, you stlll finish resolving the effects of Feast. This suggests that the card doesn't have to remain as Feast for Feast's effects to happen, which I think should extend to the case where it starts in the trash.)

Interesting point.

To make any sense of how BoM works, as I've said before, I interpreted it as a before-play ability. (You can see my reasoning in my long almost-first post a couple of pages ago) Two things happen immidiately before play if you try to play BoM: You choose a card to play it as, and it sets up an effect that when triggered will change the card back to BoM.

Okay, so you try to play BoM while it's in the trash. The two things happen, then you play it as Feast for instance (could be anything). But when does the set-up effect happen? Doesn't it actually happen before you even get to playing it, so that it never becomes Feast? Remember, the effect was set up before play, and will trigger the instant the card is not in play. If that is the case, then you never get to play it as Feast. It will still be played, but as a straight BoM, which does nothing (same as playing BoM with no card cheaper than it in supply). I think this is the correct way of looking at it.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 29, 2012, 02:46:24 pm
Okay, so you try to play BoM while it's in the trash. The two things happen, then you play it as Feast for instance (could be anything). But when does the set-up effect happen? Doesn't it actually happen before you even get to playing it, so that it never becomes Feast? Remember, the effect was set up before play, and will trigger the instant the card is not in play. If that is the case, then you never get to play it as Feast. It will still be played, but as a straight BoM, which does nothing (same as playing BoM with no card cheaper than it in supply). I think this is the correct way of looking at it.

My point is that the card doesn't have to "be" Feast for it to be played "as" Feast. The "play... as" and "until it leaves play" clauses are two in-principle independent effects.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 29, 2012, 05:10:04 pm
Having read the entire thread I don't see why there is such an issue here. I think it would be really sad if some kind of special ruling was deemed necessary, the situation does not seem so complex.
Well the special ruling just makes it work like I think most people will think it does and like the rulebook says it does - Throne locks in on what you picked first. The problem with special rulings is that no-one sees them, and this one isn't so bad there; you have to have worked out that there's an issue here at all to need this ruling, and if you go by the rulebook then you'll be playing correctly, you just won't know the reasoning.

Again the current ruling is, you Feast twice somehow. It doesn't affect anything but Thrones on BoM as a one-shot.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: SwitchedFromStarcraft on August 29, 2012, 05:41:24 pm
Having read the entire thread I don't see why there is such an issue here. I think it would be really sad if some kind of special ruling was deemed necessary, the situation does not seem so complex.
Well the special ruling just makes it work like I think most people will think it does and like the rulebook says it does - Throne locks in on what you picked first. The problem with special rulings is that no-one sees them, and this one isn't so bad there; you have to have worked out that there's an issue here at all to need this ruling, and if you go by the rulebook then you'll be playing correctly, you just won't know the reasoning.

Again the current ruling is, you Feast twice somehow. It doesn't affect anything but Thrones on BoM as a one-shot.
So if you TR on BoM as mining village, you would gain 4 coin if you selected the "trash this card for 2 coin" option both times.  Is that correct?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 29, 2012, 05:45:54 pm
um... no?

It'll work the same way as TR->Mining village, so you can't get the +$2 both times, just once.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: SwitchedFromStarcraft on August 29, 2012, 05:51:54 pm
Isn't mining village a "one-shot" if you select the "trash this card" option?  Donald says this ruling "doesn't affect anything but Thrones on BoM as a one-shot."

 Did I misunderstand something?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 29, 2012, 06:03:06 pm
And the resolution is the same as it always was for TR->Mining Village. Mining Village has an "if you do" clause, you only get the +$2 if you trash it. If you've trashed it once, you can't trash it a second time, it's already trashed.  Feast has no such clause, you gain a card regardless of whether you trashed the Feast or not.

TR->(BOM as Feast) works the same way as TR->Feast .
TR->(BOM as Mining Village) works the same way as TR->Mining Village .
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Donald X. on August 29, 2012, 06:07:59 pm
And the resolution is the same as it always was for TR->Mining Village. Mining Village has an "if you do" clause, you only get the +$2 if you trash it. If you've trashed it once, you can't trash it a second time, it's already trashed.  Feast has no such clause, you gain a card regardless of whether you trashed the Feast or not.

TR->(BOM as Feast) works the same way as TR->Feast .
TR->(BOM as Mining Village) works the same way as TR->Mining Village .
Quoting correct post.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: SwitchedFromStarcraft on August 29, 2012, 06:09:15 pm
Thank you both.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 29, 2012, 06:18:33 pm
Okay, so you try to play BoM while it's in the trash. The two things happen, then you play it as Feast for instance (could be anything). But when does the set-up effect happen? Doesn't it actually happen before you even get to playing it, so that it never becomes Feast? Remember, the effect was set up before play, and will trigger the instant the card is not in play. If that is the case, then you never get to play it as Feast. It will still be played, but as a straight BoM, which does nothing (same as playing BoM with no card cheaper than it in supply). I think this is the correct way of looking at it.

My point is that the card doesn't have to "be" Feast for it to be played "as" Feast. The "play... as" and "until it leaves play" clauses are two in-principle independent effects.

I see. Well, now we're getting into exactly what Band of Misfits does again. Partially you have to think about the intention of the card to understand how it works. That is partially what I did to figure out that it had to trigger before-play and then set up an effect to happen when it's no longer in play.

So does the first effect actually mean that it's played as a Feast without necessarily being a Feast? The second effect then would actually do two things: It makes the BoM a Feast and it sets up the effect to turn it back to a BoM. Remember also that the first effect makes you play it "as if it were" the chosen Action card. It's not just the card text that's followed: the whole card is copied, including name, types and cost. (If you were to play the Feast as an Attack card it would trigger an Urchin in play for instance.) So it seems pretty clear to me that the part in the second instruction that says that BoM "is that card" clarifies how the first instruction works, i.e. playing the BoM-as-Feast means it is a Feast. Although the second instruction does set up an effect, I don't think the two instructions are wholly independent of each other.
[EDIT: Donald has actually said the same thing, in this thread! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4083.msg87477#msg87477]

Having read the entire thread I don't see why there is such an issue here. I think it would be really sad if some kind of special ruling was deemed necessary, the situation does not seem so complex.

Perhaps you can make a compelling argument that you don't get to BoM-Feast twice, or that when you Procession-BoM you don't get to replace your trashed BoM with a $6 action. However, I really cannot see that it is intuitive to play that way. Firstly, and by my count most importantly, I do not think it is in the spirit of the cards played to deny the second Feast - it seems counterintuitive

Actually I think this might be the most complex card interaction I've seen so far in Dominion.

I do agree with you that it's in the spirit of the card that it lets you BoM-Feast twice with TR, and it's probably the intuitive interpretation for most people. However that you get a $6 Action with Procession-BoM is not so apparently intuitive for everybody, but in any case it's covered in the FAQ.

Anyway, it was important to me that it wasn't only intuitive, but that it was according to known rules about Dominion, not least of all because I maintain a FAQ on BGG where I try to include all known rulings.

So if you TR on BoM as mining village, you would gain 4 coin if you selected the "trash this card for 2 coin" option both times.  Is that correct?

No, the point of the current ruling is that Throning a BoM-as-Feast or BoM-as-Mining Village, is the same as Throning a Feast or Mining Village.
[EDIT: Okay, this was answered.]
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Kirian on August 29, 2012, 08:43:14 pm
I think this entire thread needs to be made more complicated by replacing all talk of Throne Room with Band of Misfits as Throne Room.

OK, so I play BoM as a Procession, then BoM as a Throne Room, then BoM as a Feast.  Go!
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: ftl on August 29, 2012, 08:47:19 pm
You get to gain 2 cards costing up to 5 and you trash the BOM-as-feast after gaining the first one. Then you get to pick another card to play twice. Then you trash the BOM-as-TR and gain a card costing 6.

Is that right?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: billyswong on August 30, 2012, 05:22:01 am
Following the discussion onward after my first post here, I found the intuition of some of us is so radically different than another some of us. It all boils down to what "play a card twice" means. To some of us (including myself) it is talking about a physical card; to some others it is talking about the text of a card. To some of us (including myself) the feasibility of TR-Feast is reasoned by trashed-card-is-still-a-card; to some others it is reasoned by I-remember-the-card.

Could I call the split of us "matter group" and "memory group"?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Schneau on August 30, 2012, 07:17:42 am
Following the discussion onward after my first post here, I found the intuition of some of us is so radically different than another some of us. It all boils down to what "play a card twice" means. To some of us (including myself) it is talking about a physical card; to some others it is talking about the text of a card. To some of us (including myself) the feasibility of TR-Feast is reasoned by trashed-card-is-still-a-card; to some others it is reasoned by I-remember-the-card.

Could I call the split of us "matter group" and "memory group"?

Dominion metaphysics.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: werothegreat on August 30, 2012, 08:16:21 am
The Throne Room doesn't look into the trash to make sure Feast is still a Feast.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: DrFlux on August 30, 2012, 08:55:37 am
I find it amusing that Donald really answered all the rules questions on page 1, and yet somehow there were 16 pages of dialog on this thread.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: AJD on August 30, 2012, 09:18:09 am
The Throne Room doesn't look into the trash to make sure Feast is still a Feast.

How can you tell?
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: michaeljb on August 30, 2012, 09:56:54 am
The Throne Room doesn't look into the trash to make sure Feast is still a Feast.

How can you tell?

The Throne Room doesn't know that's where the Feast should be; the Throne Room just moved the Feast to in play, and so would expect to find it there.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Jeebus on August 30, 2012, 11:22:37 am
You get to gain 2 cards costing up to 5 and you trash the BOM-as-feast after gaining the first one. Then you get to pick another card to play twice. Then you trash the BOM-as-TR and gain a card costing 6.

Is that right?

Seems right to me. The only difference from straight Procession:TR:Feast is that you gain a $6 card because of how Procession on BoM works (which is in the FAQ).

The Throne Room doesn't look into the trash to make sure Feast is still a Feast.

How can you tell?

The Throne Room doesn't know that's where the Feast should be; the Throne Room just moved the Feast to in play, and so would expect to find it there.

This seems to be the common misunderstanding of the lose-track rule again. Feast not being where TR expects it to be just prevents it from moving it, nothing else. I think that maybe the term "losing track" is causing the confusion. What's really happening is that TR is telling you to move it from one specific place to another specific place. You can't since it's not in the first specific place. Then TR is telling you to follow the instructions on the card. Since you know where the card is and can see the instructions, you can.

Following the discussion onward after my first post here, I found the intuition of some of us is so radically different than another some of us. It all boils down to what "play a card twice" means. To some of us (including myself) it is talking about a physical card; to some others it is talking about the text of a card. To some of us (including myself) the feasibility of TR-Feast is reasoned by trashed-card-is-still-a-card; to some others it is reasoned by I-remember-the-card.

Could I call the split of us "matter group" and "memory group"?

I think that could be right. Then I would be part of "matter group".
What almost seems to contradict that is that BoM as Feast works at all, since by the time you get to "gain a card costing up to $5" it's not a Feast anymore! Still it's clear that once you play the card, you have to follow all the instructions. But I do think that "this", "it", "the card" etc. always refer to a physical card in Dominion. For instance, it's the reason a wording like "while this is in play" makes any sense.
Title: Re: Band of Misfits rules questions
Post by: Qvist on August 30, 2012, 11:24:51 am
Just found this on BGG. Great!
(http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic1406619_md.jpg)