Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Captain_Frisk on August 10, 2012, 01:36:50 pm

Title: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 10, 2012, 01:36:50 pm
From isotropic login page:

Quote
The official Dominion Online game, endorsed by Donald X. Vaccarino and Rio Grande Games, is launching August 16th. The game will feature:

Unlimited, free play of the base Dominion game
Large and growing selection of Dominion expansion card sets available for purchase
Play Dominion Online:
Single player against bots
Multiplayer against your friends and other players online
In a new online adventure mode designed by Goko & Donald X, created to challenge you and improve your skills
Play Dominion Online from your browser on goko.com, on Facebook, in a Hangout on Google+, or on your iPad or Android tablet
Be the first to be notified when Dominion Online is launched by signing up at dominion.goko.com.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 10, 2012, 01:40:05 pm
Boo.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kuildeous on August 10, 2012, 01:44:04 pm
Wow, I'm surprised that they're releasing it this quickly. But I guess I shouldn't be. Between Dark Ages and the release of the online version, Dominion will dominate a few conversations at GenCon.

Time to find out what this card does that I got with my Base Cards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 10, 2012, 01:45:38 pm
Wow. Uh. Edit: I'm speechless.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 10, 2012, 01:46:02 pm
What I'm hoping is that purchasing a physical copy of Dark Ages will give me access to Dark Ages cards on Goko.  I'm further hoping that I won't need an iPhone in order to do that.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: shraeye on August 10, 2012, 01:47:32 pm
Oh man, in a week?  That's a shame; way too early
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on August 10, 2012, 02:02:15 pm
Yeah, I guess they decided hitting the release date (GenCon) is more important than polishing the product.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Tombolo on August 10, 2012, 02:09:02 pm
popcorn.gif
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 10, 2012, 02:12:46 pm
Holy shit, I saw this on the RGG FB and assumed it had to be wrong.

I can understand not releasing a fully polished product but this isn't unpolished, it's unworkable.

I won't have to boycott.  No one's going to buy it after trying the free base set and finding it doesn't fully work.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kuildeous on August 10, 2012, 02:20:21 pm
Yeah, I guess they decided hitting the release date (GenCon) is more important than polishing the product.

To be fair, we don't really know what fixes they implemented in the final product.

The rainbows-and-tulips answer is that they've taken our feedback and applied it to the final version. Just because we haven't seen the changes doesn't mean they aren't there. That just means that they haven't released it onto the beta server, presumably because those no longer need testing.

I'm not a rainbows-and-tulips guy, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

And as WW said in another thread, the base game is free. We can see what they did with our beta test and determine if it's a product worth spending money on.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 10, 2012, 02:23:45 pm
So I think there are 3 things that it really NEEDS that aren't in the beta right now (tons and tons of things I WANT). One is the rulebook(s). Another is some kind of tutorial which shows you how to do stuff on the site. I am willing to accept that they have this stuff, and it's not in the beta (probably it's in the 'adventure mode' that we've seen none of but we know is coming).

But the third thing is the crashing and the connectivity issues, and I really really don't see why they would assume that that is fixed without testing that outside their controlled environment. And as of yesterday, anyway, that was not fixed.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 10, 2012, 02:30:51 pm
Given who they were getting for beta testers, I'm not surprised they didn't show us a tutorial.  But I would be very surprised if they released officially without one.  Then you get lots of people going "What is this I don't even" and never coming back.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 10, 2012, 02:31:45 pm
Wow. I'm surprised.

I hope the release version is more polished than the beta.

Who knows? Maybe it is. But...
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 10, 2012, 02:31:49 pm
So I think there are 3 things that it really NEEDS that aren't in the beta right now (tons and tons of things I WANT). One is the rulebook(s). Another is some kind of tutorial which shows you how to do stuff on the site. I am willing to accept that they have this stuff, and it's not in the beta (probably it's in the 'adventure mode' that we've seen none of but we know is coming).

But the third thing is the crashing and the connectivity issues, and I really really don't see why they would assume that that is fixed without testing that outside their controlled environment. And as of yesterday, anyway, that was not fixed.

Maybe it's just your machine/browser.  Goko has only ever crashed for me... I think maybe once?  If that.  And that was probably because my internet connection died.  By the way, the AIs have been getting much more challenging.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Powerman on August 10, 2012, 02:35:21 pm
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what will happen to Council Room once it is launched?  Will it be able to track Goko logs?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 10, 2012, 02:38:00 pm
I regularly have things that I wouldn't expect out of a finished product.

That said, the form on isotropic mentions some things that weren't in the beta at all but were talked about - adventure mode, playing on facebook/google+, and so on. So on second thought, I wouldn't be surprised if we just haven't seen the latest version that they've been fixing up.

But still, it's basically going to go public without that beta-tested at all.

(BTW, everyone, this is in General Discussion, and not in the funsockets private forum. Not sure how much if anything we're actually allowed to ay here.)

(The AIs are mostly good. I lose to them when I try things that get too fancy.)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 10, 2012, 02:39:06 pm
I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what will happen to Council Room once it is launched?  Will it be able to track Goko logs?

I'm sure that as soon as there is a way to get the goko logs, they will be incorporated into CR. They're text-based logs that have all the relevant information; it will take new parsing code, but that's doable. When people who work on the code have time.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 10, 2012, 02:40:31 pm
But still, it's basically going to go public without that beta-tested at all.

by that you mean 'without being beta-tested by our community'. it is very possible/likely that they have other testers or test methods that have taken care of this.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 10, 2012, 02:43:12 pm
I regularly have things that I wouldn't expect out of a finished product.

That said, the form on isotropic mentions some things that weren't in the beta at all but were talked about - adventure mode, playing on facebook/google+, and so on. So on second thought, I wouldn't be surprised if we just haven't seen the latest version that they've been fixing up.

But still, it's basically going to go public without that beta-tested at all.

(BTW, everyone, this is in General Discussion, and not in the funsockets private forum. Not sure how much if anything we're actually allowed to ay here.)

(The AIs are mostly good. I lose to them when I try things that get too fancy.)

It's a little scary that features like those are being released without beta testing.  They must do internal testing, but that's not nearly as effective for finding bugs.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: methods of rationality on August 10, 2012, 02:45:35 pm
Why cant I find anything mentioning this release date anywhere else on the internet?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 10, 2012, 02:49:08 pm
Maybe they mean August 16th, 2013?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 10, 2012, 02:51:37 pm
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/839965/boardgamearena-shutting-down-dominon-official-v

No official date here - but comments from DougZ and DXV.

There are some mentions in the official forums - but I'm not going to copy those.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: methods of rationality on August 10, 2012, 02:58:43 pm
So then 8/22 iso is going down. That's 1 more week, yay.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jonts26 on August 10, 2012, 03:29:24 pm
Time to iso binge, I guess.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: minakichan on August 10, 2012, 03:42:14 pm
As long as we have the ability to create really long usernames with weird Unicode and spaces, I will be happy. Because Dominion joke usernames are amazing.

<-- doesn't actually have such a username

But in all seriousness, I totally don't mind having to pay for expansions and stuff; I just hope the ranking, stats and achievements available through isotropic and Council Room are possible!!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blackb on August 10, 2012, 03:42:54 pm
Kind of sad that u don't get informed about this when u have signed up to goko.  :(
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Davio on August 10, 2012, 03:46:11 pm
My baby is probably going to be born by that day and though he will be a few weeks early, I'm sure he'll be more developed than the beta final version.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 10, 2012, 03:48:54 pm
that implies there will be no iphone / android phone versions.

This makes me a sad panda. and I really dont think funsockets should launch yet
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 10, 2012, 04:06:21 pm
(BTW, everyone, this is in General Discussion, and not in the funsockets private forum. Not sure how much if anything we're actually allowed to ay here.)

Who gives a Scout's ass if you get kicked out of the Beta now? The product launches in 6 days.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: pingpongsam on August 10, 2012, 04:13:52 pm
(BTW, everyone, this is in General Discussion, and not in the funsockets private forum. Not sure how much if anything we're actually allowed to ay here.)

Who gives a Scout's ass if you get kicked out of the Beta now? The product launches in 6 days.

We have Rats now.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: pingpongsam on August 10, 2012, 04:15:28 pm
If I were paying I'd immediately be willing to pay for Isotropic whereas I don't think I am at all willing to pay for the current version of funsockets. My experience there is truly terrible. It regularly crashes and lags out and I am accessing it from various machines and locations with much the same results regardless.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: andwilk on August 10, 2012, 05:07:24 pm
It's the beginning of the end of Online Dominion  :'(
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: theory on August 10, 2012, 05:11:39 pm
It's the beginning of the end of Online Dominion  :'(

You all are way too pessimistic.  The perfect is the enemy of the good: getting so many new people into online Dominion is such a plus that I'm willing to forgive (hopefully) temporary problems.  You can keep delaying and ironing-out bugs forever, but at some point you have to release, knowing that it's not perfect.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 10, 2012, 05:11:46 pm
Terrible news. If it is like it is now on launch, less than a week from release, then this will suck hard. And, I can tell you now, there are some big problems with the current beta. I don't see how those problems will be addressed in less than a week, even if the programmers get no sleep for the next six days.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 10, 2012, 05:19:02 pm
It's the beginning of the end of Online Dominion  :'(

You all are way too pessimistic.  The perfect is the enemy of the good: getting so many new people into online Dominion is such a plus that I'm willing to forgive (hopefully) temporary problems.  You can keep delaying and ironing-out bugs forever, but at some point you have to release, knowing that it's not perfect.

TBH I dont think they should launch right this second, but very soon its very close to being close enough. I wouldn't mind a iPhone / android phone version at launch as a non tablet owner but I'll deal with it
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Davio on August 10, 2012, 05:28:14 pm
I just played a game where half the cards didn't have images (transparent).

I wouldn't say it's close to finished with quirks like that.

However...........we can't really complain about a beta product we get to try for free, heck, we should be glad we're even in anyway.
Once the final version comes out, we can unleash our judgment.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 10, 2012, 05:31:52 pm
I just played a game where half the cards didn't have images (transparent).

I wouldn't say it's close to finished with quirks like that.

However...........we can't really complain about a beta product we get to try for free, heck, we should be glad we're even in anyway.
Once the final version comes out, we can unleash our judgment.

I've never been part of a beta where the beta version a week before launch wasn't exactly the same as the release version.  Well, technically the last few weeks of beta were Release Candidate instead...
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 10, 2012, 08:13:55 pm
From my end, the version they just pushed through seems (at the moment) basically good enough, to me.

I mean, it is not where I want it to be, there are lots of improvements that can still be made, etc. etc. But to the minimal level of standards I expect for an implementation, at least. (Actually it has a lot of stuff beyond that, but that's not my point here).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 10, 2012, 08:23:53 pm
Looking forward to getting to play with it this evening, then!

...oh wait I'm driving down to see my girlfriend this weekend, I won't have a chance to play it until like tomorrow or sunday even...
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Fabian on August 10, 2012, 08:37:21 pm
Guess the last time I'm playing dominion is at Worlds next weekend? Going to miss isotropic :(
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: popsofctown on August 10, 2012, 08:45:17 pm
How do expansions work?  Can my friend Jimmy buy Seaside and my friend Johnny buy Prosperity and I buy Hinterlands and then we play a three player game with all the aforementioned expansions and base?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: michaeljb on August 10, 2012, 09:22:50 pm
How do expansions work?  Can my friend Jimmy buy Seaside and my friend Johnny buy Prosperity and I buy Hinterlands and then we play a three player game with all the aforementioned expansions and base?
Things Donald X has said (somewhere) indicate yes.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 10, 2012, 09:23:52 pm
How do expansions work?  Can my friend Jimmy buy Seaside and my friend Johnny buy Prosperity and I buy Hinterlands and then we play a three player game with all the aforementioned expansions and base?
Things Donald X has said (somewhere) indicate yes.
Really? I was thinking that they indicated no. iirc, one person hosts the game, and the cards must be taken from what that person has, entirely, so you can't mix and match like is being suggested here.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 10, 2012, 11:03:12 pm
Really? I was thinking that they indicated no. iirc, one person hosts the game, and the cards must be taken from what that person has, entirely, so you can't mix and match like is being suggested here.
Initially I thought one person would host but now I think you can mix and match.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: michaeljb on August 10, 2012, 11:59:02 pm
I could have sworn I read that somewhere--that just like IRL, only one person in the group has to own Hinterlands for the group to be able to play with Hinterlands. Apparently not? Even though that seems to be the case now? Well, all's well that end's well I suppose.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Powerman on August 11, 2012, 12:10:32 am
WW buys all the sets, then I mooch off of him :)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rspeer on August 11, 2012, 01:41:11 am
"Good enough"? It's still full of moronic animations where you're not allowed to play until they're done whizzing and sparkling.

They've fixed a few crashing bugs, but they sure haven't made it into anything near the quality of Isotropic.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 11, 2012, 01:59:57 am
While I'm pleased with the progress they're making, I'm quite concerned about this if it really is going live in 5 days.  I don't really care that much about the sets as long as they'll come out eventually; the interface and speed issues (and bugs) bother me a lot more and they're not the best way to sell the product to a new audience.  I'm going to buy it no matter what because I play weekly with my college friends and it's an important way for me to keep in touch with them, but I hope it seems polished by the time they bring it out.

A public beta (maybe with only the base set) would be neat but won't happen.

Quote
It's still full of moronic animations where you're not allowed to play until they're done whizzing and sparkling.

That's unfortunately the kind of thing that non-iso players probably don't care that much about, if only because they don't know any better.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: shraeye on August 11, 2012, 02:12:48 am
"Good enough"? It's still full of moronic animations where you're not allowed to play until they're done whizzing and sparkling.

They've fixed a few crashing bugs, but they sure haven't made it into anything near the quality of Isotropic.

They should probably work on making those animations tileable.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Fabian on August 11, 2012, 02:14:43 am
"Good enough"? It's still full of moronic animations where you're not allowed to play until they're done whizzing and sparkling.

They've fixed a few crashing bugs, but they sure haven't made it into anything near the quality of Isotropic.

They should probably work on making those animations disableable

Yup.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: shraeye on August 11, 2012, 02:25:40 am
They should probably work on making those animations disableable

Yup.
Yeah, thanks for the change.  That's a choice too, but if they are letting you watch your opponents turn, this could frustrate newer players who find the animations helpful when their opponent disables them during his turn.  Tiling them would cause a big increase in speed, and would give the more visual feel that FunSockets seems to be going for. 

This would be a beneficial change to their current plan, instead of forcing them to completely change their plan.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Titandrake on August 11, 2012, 03:02:59 am
I wouldn't have an issue with it if it followed the current rule of "Slowest speed takes priority." So no animations is highest speed, but if someone has animations on then you have to wait for animations. It's annoying I admit, but it's probably the only way to work it in while keeping animations for people who like them.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Lekkit on August 11, 2012, 04:19:30 am
Soo, a few select people (well, not that few actually) have been playing this beta-version for a bit. I guess some of you plays there instead of playing on iso. Why shouldn't everyone be able to play there? Because every expansion isn't out yet? That's my biggest concern. Other than that. I'm acutally super excited that something is happening here. But then, I'm one of the ones who actually likes the FunSockets version.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DG on August 11, 2012, 07:23:56 am
I played * a lot * of games on it yesterday and I think the connectivity is the main problem. You can playing happily and then the server leaves you waiting for 3 minutes for a response. Perhaps it has hung entirely; you can't really tell. This isn't good enough unfortunately and you can't refresh the browser or do anything to remedy this without making things worse. Otherwise, despite all the UI features that are missing, it is playable product.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 11, 2012, 07:56:40 am
(BTW, everyone, this is in General Discussion, and not in the funsockets private forum. Not sure how much if anything we're actually allowed to ay here.)

Who gives a Scout's ass if you get kicked out of the Beta now? The product launches in 6 days.

We have Rats now.

That was a perfect response.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 11, 2012, 09:12:16 am
Gonna be honest with you, I didn't beta test for long. I played for a week or so when I got my invite, and reported stuff I found. Most of the stuff I found had already been reported a million times though so I felt I wasn't really helping anything and just left it. I wanted to try out multiplayer games but most of the time the server was so dead you could only play a bot anyway so I just left and figured I'd come back one day when more people had been invited and there'd be people around. I never did.

Just went for a quick game (against a bot... still) now to see how (/if) it'd advanced since then, and well... it hasn't, much. It still looks the same, it's still empty, the Adventure mode is still nowhere to be seen. Logs have been added and maybe a few rules-related bugs have been fixed that I didn't check in my one game. However, I haven't played on Isotropic either for probably... I don't know, maybe a couple of months now. Well, I had a great time on Goko just now. I played a game of Dominion. There were cards there and they moved around the screen and made numbers change and other cards move when I played them. There were some animations but they didn't take long and they highlighted the things that were happening... and I didn't even think to check until half way through the game and it turned out I was playing on the normal speed setting. Not even fast. The animations were definitely not a problem. Maybe it's because I'm not used to Isotropic at the moment. Maybe it's because I'm not impatient. But my point is, for the majority of people, the system is fine. If people think the animations are a problem playing on very fast, then it's those people who have the problem, not Goko. I'm sorry, but Goko is not Isotropic and I'm pretty fed up with comments along the lines of "Goko is terrible and should not be released because it is not Isotropic". Goko is just fine and Goko will be getting my money. We all knew this was going to happen eventually and I am stoked now that it is. Can't wait to see some Dark Ages cards flying around the screen and making animations happen.

I hope the Adventure mode is available in the official launch version and I have no doubt the missing sets will be added pretty sharpish. That's not a problem to me. All I care about is whether or not it's a decent platform to play Dominion online, and it is. Isotropic was too. Isotropic didn't LOOK like Dominion though and Goko does. So I'm happy. Good job Goko.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 11, 2012, 09:15:18 am
WW buys all the sets, then I mooch off of him :)
Yeah, the guy who can't get a full-time job buys all the stuff for you...  ::)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 11, 2012, 09:18:18 am
"Good enough"? It's still full of moronic animations where you're not allowed to play until they're done whizzing and sparkling.

They've fixed a few crashing bugs, but they sure haven't made it into anything near the quality of Isotropic.
I didn't say that it was as good as isotropic, I didn't say that it was perfect, what I said was, it's good enough to be a product.
I mean, yes, it's not everything I want, and yes, it's not everything you want, but from a fair, objective stand point, it is 'good enough'. I stand by that. And those animations really don't take that long (though I agree, it would be wonderful if they were disableable).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 11, 2012, 09:35:45 am
I wouldn't have an issue with it if it followed the current rule of "Slowest speed takes priority." So no animations is highest speed, but if someone has animations on then you have to wait for animations. It's annoying I admit, but it's probably the only way to work it in while keeping animations for people who like them.

What would be nice would be a feature that auto-matches you to someone with the same preferred animation speed setting.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Rabid on August 11, 2012, 10:41:09 am
The only bug that I think is "not good enough for release" is the shuffling bug.
It has been reproduced for small decks.
But I suspect it to be present but undetected on all deck sizes.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 11, 2012, 02:43:26 pm
The only bug that I think is "not good enough for release" is the shuffling bug.
It has been reproduced for small decks.
But I suspect it to be present but undetected on all deck sizes.

lol I kept thinking to myself, man, I keep getting bad shuffle luck all the time against the bots.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 12, 2012, 03:45:40 am
(EDIT: I'm deleting this post because I forgot this was not the closed beta forum area.)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: bozzball on August 12, 2012, 08:14:17 am
excited!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: pingpongsam on August 12, 2012, 09:50:31 am
The only bug that I think is "not good enough for release" is the shuffling bug.
It has been reproduced for small decks.
But I suspect it to be present but undetected on all deck sizes.

I've seen some bugs in the last few days I would say are "not good enough for release" -- some cards don't work the way the rules say they should, which is a pretty big problem.

Which ones?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 12, 2012, 12:13:11 pm
The only bug that I think is "not good enough for release" is the shuffling bug.
It has been reproduced for small decks.
But I suspect it to be present but undetected on all deck sizes.

I've seen some bugs in the last few days I would say are "not good enough for release" -- some cards don't work the way the rules say they should, which is a pretty big problem.

Which ones?
It's not authorized to discuss it here, but post this in the FunSockets Beta Feedback forum and I'm sure you'll get a list.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DG on August 12, 2012, 12:42:04 pm
To my mind if the product was given another three weeks of improvement then it would probably capture a new market of casual players and keep most of the isotropic players. At the moment it risks casual and even some regular players being lost from the Dominion market forever if they have an initial bad experience with the product. Internet users can be quite fickle and are ready to spend their time elsewhere if they're not satisfied with the service they get.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 12, 2012, 03:43:35 pm
Yeah, I'm so scared that that'll happen :(
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Lekkit on August 12, 2012, 03:53:44 pm
So you mean you don't love the game? I'm pretty sure that people who loves playing on iso really likes the game and would be willing to give away even months in wait for a "perfected" version of the online game. I'm not worried about the regular players. The casuals will maybe take a hit, but as the online version stabilizes so should the new stream of casual players.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 12, 2012, 04:02:18 pm
So you mean you don't love the game? I'm pretty sure that people who loves playing on iso really likes the game and would be willing to give away even months in wait for a "perfected" version of the online game. I'm not worried about the regular players. The casuals will maybe take a hit, but as the online version stabilizes so should the new stream of casual players.
If Goko doesn't make much money, I speculate dev efforts would be reduced.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Fabian on August 12, 2012, 09:28:11 pm
So you mean you don't love the game? I'm pretty sure that people who loves playing on iso really likes the game and would be willing to give away even months in wait for a "perfected" version of the online game. I'm not worried about the regular players. The casuals will maybe take a hit, but as the online version stabilizes so should the new stream of casual players.

I would be. Sad, but true.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: dondon151 on August 13, 2012, 09:14:00 pm
I would be. Sad, but true.

Fabian's right; I'm pretty sure that the fanbase of "regular" players is much larger than the fanbase of invested players like you and me, and are much more susceptible to first impressions.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on August 13, 2012, 09:19:56 pm
I would be. Sad, but true.

Fabian's right; I'm pretty sure that the fanbase of "regular" players is much larger than the fanbase of invested players like you and me, and are much more susceptible to first impressions.
This, and a lot of iso players aren't gonna waste time with this. They get on, see an inferior product, go "what is this... I don't even..." and leave in about an hour tops.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: dondon151 on August 13, 2012, 09:28:00 pm
This, and a lot of iso players aren't gonna waste time with this. They get on, see an inferior product, go "what is this... I don't even..." and leave in about an hour tops.

Well, I don't think this is going to be exactly true. From an economics standpoint, at least, if the player deems that he derives enough enjoyment out of playing Goko, despite its flaws, that it's worth the cost, then he'll buy Goko.

And you guys love Dominion... right? Right? :P
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jonts26 on August 13, 2012, 09:34:47 pm
I'm pretty sure the nice, pretty UI will attract a lot of players that were turned off by the "ugliness" of iso.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 13, 2012, 09:35:18 pm
I would be. Sad, but true.

Fabian's right; I'm pretty sure that the fanbase of "regular" players is much larger than the fanbase of invested players like you and me, and are much more susceptible to first impressions.
This, and a lot of iso players aren't gonna waste time with this. They get on, see an inferior product, go "what is this... I don't even..." and leave in about an hour tops.

If isotropic were still an option, I would agree with you.  But when the choice is Goko vs. nothing, I don't think they're going to leave as quickly as you think.  Most likely if they're that invested in iso they want to play online Dominion even on an "inferior product" if that's their only choice.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 13, 2012, 09:55:48 pm
As a beta tester, I can guarantee you that I will be buying this on day one! It is not perfect, but how it is will do for now, and I'm sure things will get better.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 13, 2012, 11:39:02 pm
An average-quality implementation of a great game is still worth playing, even though it's worse than a great implementation of a great game. So I'll probably buy Goko unless there's something game-breaking. Although I'm not too active on isotropic lately, so who knows.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rspeer on August 14, 2012, 12:00:17 am
If isotropic were still an option, I would agree with you.  But when the choice is Goko vs. nothing, I don't think they're going to leave as quickly as you think.  Most likely if they're that invested in iso they want to play online Dominion even on an "inferior product" if that's their only choice.

Counterexample: A ton of my friends and I used to play Scrabulous. Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people. When Hasbro forced it to shut down and directed people to their buggy, toylike, excessively animated version of Facebook Scrabble, a couple of people learned to connect to the renegade Romanian version but most people, including me, just stopped playing Scrabble.

I'm sure Hasbro Scrabble has rebuilt a community by now, but it's not the same people.

I mentioned this on the forum before and Donald X made fun of me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=175.msg2424#msg2424), but this is exactly what Goko and RGG are about to do. The parallels are uncanny. If this train wreck continues, I probably won't see most of you in a game again and it won't even be my conscious decision.

The only difference I see here is that the game has a living creator who loves his creation and cares about its future, and seems to occasionally be quietly saying that this isn't what he planned. There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 12:05:34 am
I'm sure Hasbro Scrabble has rebuilt a community by now, but it's not the same people.

I'd bet not.  People play Words With Friends instead because Zynga's clone works better than Hasbro's correct version ever did.  And we know how people around here love clones.

Quote
The parallels are uncanny. If this train wreck continues, I probably won't see most of you in a game again and it won't even be my conscious decision.

I'll admit I'd forgotten about the Scrabulous debacle, but yeah.  It's missing the lawsuits, thankfully.

Quote
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta

/crosses fingers
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 12:17:20 am
I mentioned this on the forum before and Donald X made fun of me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=175.msg2424#msg2424), but this is exactly what Goko and RGG are about to do.
I'm there for you, whether you need isotropic to be public for a while so that you can miss it properly when it's gone, or a quick one-liner when you're being loony.

You were chicken littling over the idea that the company making the online version didn't want competition from free fan-made versions. But every company felt the same way. You might as well have been complaining, "Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"

There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rspeer on August 14, 2012, 12:34:49 am
You might as well have been complaining, "Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"

Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.

Scrabulous was a company and they had a good sense of how to make a board game into a solid computer game. Not so good of a plan for getting permission or surviving lawsuits, I know.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 14, 2012, 12:36:31 am
"Oh a *company* is making this online version? Then it will suck!"
Most software sucks.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 14, 2012, 01:15:52 am
Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people.

I think this is the key part that is different from iso.  While there may be some people on iso who aren't very serious and just want to fill a few minutes a day, the nature of iso's interface and lack of publicity would tend to draw in people who are more serious -- I'm not saying everyone is on the level of posters to this forum, but I just can't see that many people giving up on Goko in an hour simply because it's not like isotropic.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jonts26 on August 14, 2012, 01:24:01 am
Most people weren't even serious about playing Scrabble well, but it just had really good asynchronous gameplay (with a nice, unassuming, unobtrusive interface) that would let you fill a few minutes per day and keep in touch with people.

I think this is the key part that is different from iso.  While there may be some people on iso who aren't very serious and just want to fill a few minutes a day, the nature of iso's interface and lack of publicity would tend to draw in people who are more serious -- I'm not saying everyone is on the level of posters to this forum, but I just can't see that many people giving up on Goko in an hour simply because it's not like isotropic.

Again, not being like iso is a point in its favor for a lot of people I'm sure. Casual players like the flashy.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 01:58:05 am
Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.
A year ago, Jay hadn't even met the guys. I have never thought it would be anything at the expense of gameplay. I expected the launch version to have all of the cards until a few months ago.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: lycotic on August 14, 2012, 02:29:08 am
Quote
on your iPad or Android tablet

Not phone.  So the app doesn't scale down to phones, and can't take up a few mindless minutes while waiting for a meeting.  And Androminion is going away.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 03:02:10 am
Nah, not in the context of the thread. Even a year ago, the hints were being dropped about the missing cards and the idea that it would be "flashy" at the expense of gameplay.
A year ago, Jay hadn't even met the guys. I have never thought it would be anything at the expense of gameplay. I expected the launch version to have all of the cards until a few months ago.

So the whole reason my annoyance at this whole mess began was because of this post from February 2011:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6286314#6286314

(Alas, I cannot find where I started my own bitching... apparently not on BGG though.  Perhaps here?  Or on the original blog pre-forum?  Hard to say.)

I'm just going to excerpt the parts important to me:

"My best guess it that if you asked me in two weeks I would say probably it will come out in September 2011... Furthermore my best guess would be that at that time, it would support multiple devices, and would have at least the base set and Intrigue but not everything that's published."

There's more to the post, but those are the key points.  Presumably the people working on it then were not FunSockets/Goko.  Again I want to remind people about killing the messenger--this is RGG working in its mysterious (poorly-thought-out IMO) ways.  But we've been discussing an "official" online app for over 18 months now; and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently.

As you say in that post, "how hard can it be really" to include all the sets?

I mean... I dunno, man.  15+ months of waiting and wondering. A private beta that's really a semi-public alpha, and that lasts less than two months, just to make a release date that seems not to be practical given where this thing currently is.

You know, I'm not even certain where I was going with this post.  This whole thing has been mishandled, from even talking about it when things weren't even set in Jell-O, much less stone, to Jay making you the messenger without giving you a message (or perhaps you did it on your own to engage the community?  I don't know), to the lack of updates from RGG, the continuous wondering when Iso would disappear... combined with this forum's insatiable (and borderline insane) desire for hard facts, strong personalities, etc... just so many levels of mishandling here.

And at the end of the day--or, I should say, the end of the day Thursday--we still have a product that might barely be suitable as a beta being released and hyped as a product for paying customers, and I am truly apprehensive that this won't go down well for RGG.  I want it to succeed; I want to be willing to give you money for this.  But the whole thing has been mishandled right from the start.

There's an image macro out there with a quote from a movie--Jaws?  I don't know--something about how things are gonna get bad, and we'll be lucky to live through them.  I'm probably getting it completely wrong, but that's how this situation feels.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 14, 2012, 07:38:35 am
At this point, the thing most likely to drive me away from Dominion (pretty much entirely, since I don't have a great deal of people to play more-than-just-Base with IRL) is this community. It was this community that got me so wrapped up in Dominion once I discovered Isotropic. The discussions, friendliness, puzzles and articles were all so interesting and insightful that I stayed around and for a long time I was the third (and possibly second for a bit when Guided disappeared) most active member of the forums. Recently though I haven't even been bothered enough about Dominion to even think of going to Isotropic to play the game. I think the reason for that is because I'm spending my time here reading the forums and there's no interesting Dominion discussion. There's just whining and moaning about Isotropic closing and being replaced by an official product, which, as Kirian quite handily pointed out, WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT FOR THE LAST 18 MONTHS. We've also known for the vast majority of that time that it's not going to be a pay-for version of Isotropic, because we were told a long time ago that ChickenZ didn't want the job.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but I've considered leaving this community a number of times over the last few months because of this, the only reason I haven't is because I've been here so long that I know I won't be able to just walk away. It's not somewhere that really makes me want to play a game that I love and enjoy like it used to anymore though. What's the point of playing a game if I can't have fun discussions about it too?

Unfortunately, at this point, there's no way I can make a statement such as "Funsockets will be getting my money on day 1", and it's nothing to do with Funsockets itself. I think Funsockets is a great implementation of a great game, in need of a few tweaks and additions, but otherwise great. It's this community that's holding my money from Funsockets.

I'm going to wait it out a month of so. If the naysaying doesn't stop, I'll have no choice but to walk away from what's been a huge and exciting part of the last few years of my life. If it does stop and the naysayers leave/get over it, I'll be able to continue enjoying my hobby.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: theory on August 14, 2012, 09:34:21 am
I agree with TINAS. 

Obviously it is not possible to impose a forum rule that forbids people from criticizing the new Dominion.  But I am pretty fed up with people's whining about it.  We get it -- it's not Isotropic.  It isn't perfect.

But do you know where this site, and CouncilRoom, and Dominion itself, would be if we only released things when they were perfect?  They would never exist.  You launch things with problems; that's a fact of life. 

It takes guts and determination to build something, but nothing at all to criticize.  If you really care about making this work, you would play on it relentlessly, constantly offer feedback, and demonstrate a willingness to accept what is new, instead of perpetually whining about what you are giving up.  And if you really hate it so much, then you are more than welcome to quit online Dominion.  You're still welcome in the community, but relentless negativity is unpleasant, unprofessional, immature, and makes us all look bad.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Davio on August 14, 2012, 10:01:01 am
I wonder what it would be like if things were reversed.

What if Funsockets existed before Iso?

Would everyone be complaining about Iso's minimalistic UI?
Remember that we all came from the real life game which is as flashy as it can get of course.
We only found out about Iso because, well, that's where the best players were.

If the best players would have started on Funsockets, nobody would have moved over to Iso.
I can hear you screaming: "We want our fancy card images and animations!" "We want to be able to play with bots!"

I think that the Funsockets version deserves more credit than it's getting. We're all spoiled babies complaining about something we can try for free. I don't think the FS version is all that bad. Sure it has its quirks and bugs, but they're fixable and if you provide your comments in a constructive manner, the sooner they will try to fix it.

There's no point in trying it for free and crying "Weeeeeeh, it doesn't work!!!"

I must admit that I was also stunned about the harsh reactions I found all over the forums. I mean, we're all sad Iso's going, but in the end it's just a pastime. It's fun to play and be competitive and have a hobby, but it's not the end of our lives.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 14, 2012, 10:11:29 am
We're all spoiled babies complaining about something we can try for free. I don't think the FS version is all that bad. Sure it has its quirks and bugs, but they're fixable and if you provide your comments in a constructive manner, the sooner they will try to fix it.

But it's going live in a few days.  That's not much time to fix the problems.  I understand people's annoyance at the harsh tone some posters have been using and the repetitive nature of the posts, but we're talking about a game going live in several days that still has bugs related to the basic way that cards and the rules work.  They may fix these in time for the release but it's natural that people would be concerned.

Once again, people are not complaining about a free product.  They're complaining about something we're expected to pay money for.

Quote
There's no point in trying it for free and crying "Weeeeeeh, it doesn't work!!!"

Kirian is very harsh and tends to overreact, but he also has made very detailed posts with substantive criticisms -- he's not just doing empty whining.

(Also, it's not that surprising this would be a heavy topic of discussion -- Dark Ages isn't quite out yet and isotropic's demise is pretty big news considering this forum's almost built around isotropic and councilroom.  I think once the switch actually happens the talk will die down somewhat.)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 14, 2012, 10:31:36 am
These complaints are being made because it seems like RGG is intent on shooting themselves in the foot, and none of the suggestions and warnings which were made months ago have been heeded.

Also because of the awful communication which has pervaded this long and windy road.

I really think this bit from kirian says it all: "and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently."

I'm probably not gonna have much to do with goku, but I'm just gonna make some predictions for 6-12 months down the line:

1. Lousy UI, bugs and animations drive away most of the hardcore iso players
2. Lack of decent competition guts the top-tier
3. Poor pricing structure leads to lack of adoption by casual (non-boardgamer) players
4. Goku shuts down servers citing lack of revenue
5. Some snarky comments by DXV

Be back to say "I told you so" again then.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 14, 2012, 10:40:23 am
Be back to say "I told you so" again then.

I'm also critical of the current plan to release the product in its current state and expect people to pay money for it - but this post was exactly what theory was asking us to not do.  There's nothing constructive or useful in it.

Instead - you could provide some feedback to goko in terms of what your expectations are in a product that you'd be willing to pay for - perhaps adding to my post in the beta test forums:

http://funsockets.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/619-shut-up-and-take-my-money-consolidated-acceptance-criteria/



Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: kn1tt3r on August 14, 2012, 10:45:21 am
These complaints are being made because it seems like RGG is intent on shooting themselves in the foot, and none of the suggestions and warnings which were made months ago have been heeded.

Also because of the awful communication which has pervaded this long and windy road.

I really think this bit from kirian says it all: "and at the time of the original likely release date, Jay hadn't even met the guys who are working on it now, apparently."

I'm probably not gonna have much to do with goku, but I'm just gonna make some predictions for 6-12 months down the line:

1. Lousy UI, bugs and animations drive away most of the hardcore iso players
2. Lack of decent competition guts the top-tier
3. Poor pricing structure leads to lack of adoption by casual (non-boardgamer) players
4. Goku shuts down servers citing lack of revenue
5. Some snarky comments by DXV

Be back to say "I told you so" again then.
Now that's a positive first post....

I think we should just do two simple things:
- acting like adults and not like childs who don't get exactly what they want
- not being under the impression to be the center of the Dominion world

As for the second point, I mean instead of feeling grateful to be, as a community, asked for an oppionion at all, we just take it for granted and still complain that our oppinion is not valued enough.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 14, 2012, 10:55:13 am

What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve? All it will do is give you the opportunity to say 'I told you so' if it does indeed all go wrong. Wow, good for you, you have just won the internet!

Now you can label it all under 'Constructive Criticism' if you like, but how many times does stuff have to be repeated before it just comes across as 'whinging'


I get that there are inherent problems in the product, but do people think that GOKO, RGG and DvX are not aware of the state of the game? And how it will affect customer base and what not. I would imagine they have actually thought about this and not just throwing things at random out there. We have at least one experienced company (RGG) in there with quite a few years worth of business experience I would imagine, and the actual game designer who understands intrinsically how his game works.

If they have decided its time to release it for business reasons, then you're just going to have to accept that its getting released. If you don't want to pay for it by then, thats a real shame, some (most?) of you are pretty cool guys I expect!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 14, 2012, 11:01:47 am
personally, the biggest selling point to me on funsockets will be the competition. really, that is what kept me coming back to iso.  there was a high level of play and a pretty well designed leaderboard which let me estimate my skill against both others and myself over time. if most of you guys are playing over there i probably will too.  i don't care too much about how the interface looks or feels (man, i have to be one of the more active posters still not in the beta) but it would be nice to have a similarly well designed leaderboard.  of course, i have some disposable income and a real appreciation for the game so they are probably getting my money either way.

to carry on the meta-discussion, all of the criticism has gotten kind of annoying lately.  it seems like my recent post feed is regularly filled with 10 separate threads (all of which seem to be having the same sort of discussion) with various statements about funsockets or funsockets vs. iso. i mean if we took out the funsockets criticism, the mafia posts, and the scout jokes the recent forum activity would basically be limited to rinkworks' contests. it got to the point where i was very tempted to start a r/cj (http://www.reddit.com/r/circlejerk/) (shortened to play nice) inspired thread to poke fun at it.

of course, for all those frustrated, the best way to counter the slog of off topic/critical posts is to generate some quality original content. there is plenty of excitement in the dominion world right about now we could be focusing on instead.  we have had a mini-set's worth of Dark Ages cards previewed.  we have the finals of the world masters tournament coming up, with a few of our own angling to win it. we have a new dominion product that, flaws or not, will certainly make sharing our passion a whole lot easier with all of our casual smartphone/tablet using friends. to me there just seems so much else we could be doing...
 
- working on simulations for Dark Ages cards.
- three sentence summaries of Dark Ages cards. 
- discussing tournament methods, rules, and formats on funsockets.
- figuring out how to mine data from funsockets/goko logs.
- whether or not/how to associate funsockets game data with isotropic data.
- speculating on the final table of the world masters tournament.
- improving and marketing the world masters tournament.
- organizing local gaming meetups or dominion tournaments
- more contribution and discussion for rinkworks' card contests.
- more dominion memes.
- IRL things like olympics, elections, the impending start of soccer/football seasons, curious things on mars
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:03:54 am
So the whole reason my annoyance at this whole mess began was because of this post from February 2011:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6286314#6286314
Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will. Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Funsockets didn't tell people anything, and some people hated that, but man maybe that was in fact a lot of bullet-dodging. I told people what I knew because they wanted me to.

I expected the game forever earlier, because I thought stuff was going on when nothing was. Yes there was an earlier company that nothing happened with. Then I expected the game earlier from funsockets, because I thought stuff was going on when nothing was. They hadn't started by the time I predicted they'd be done. They cleverly didn't start until they had a contract, and they did not have that contract in a remotely timely manner. Finally they had other stuff to work on too, which I didn't know would be the case.

I mean maybe in your head these guys are putting in 10-minute days shooting nerf guns at each other. That is not the case.

Again, okay, the lesson is don't tell people anything. You can find all the posts from people mad about not being told stuff too though.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:07:07 am
5. Some snarky comments by DXV
I can't commit to that other stuff, but I can commit to this. I'm there for you!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:09:49 am
What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve?
It's going to make me waste some time coming up with snarky comments!

I don't know what to tell you guys. This is just the place for a snark.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 14, 2012, 11:12:13 am
What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve?
It's going to make me waste some time coming up with snarky comments!

I don't know what to tell you guys. This is just the place for a snark.

well, it is snark week after all.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DStu on August 14, 2012, 11:21:24 am

Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will. Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Donald, just please stop taking things away from this kind of discussions.  There are always people complaining, and there are tons of people that don't.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 14, 2012, 11:22:12 am
What do you think all this moaning and claiming of boycotting the product is actually going to achieve?
It's going to make me waste some time coming up with snarky comments!

I don't know what to tell you guys. This is just the place for a snark.

It could be worse, it could be a place for Boojums!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: LastFootnote on August 14, 2012, 11:23:20 am

Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will. Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Donald, just please stop taking things away from this kind of discussions.  There are always people complaining, and there are tons of people that don't.

Yeah, agreed. I've been a loud complainer myself at times, but I always appreciate your honest communication and overall I'm still pleased and excited about all things Dominion-related.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 14, 2012, 11:25:13 am
Just came in to say that I think it is great that the game designer is an active participant in the community and doesn't even duck hostile threads.  I am on a few music message boards and the notion of a musician from any of the discussed bands coming onto the forums is unthinkable.  Kudos to DXV! 

At this point nobody knows what the final version will be like exactly, so it probably makes sense to sit tight for a few days, then go play some free base games upon launch and vote with your wallet as to whether you like the new server.

(P.S. If you can simply keep playing while the animations are going, I will buy all of the cards on Day 1!) 
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: sherwinpr on August 14, 2012, 11:29:34 am
I'm sure Hasbro Scrabble has rebuilt a community by now, but it's not the same people.

I'd bet not.  People play Words With Friends instead because Zynga's clone works better than Hasbro's correct version ever did.  And we know how people around here love clones.

Quote
The parallels are uncanny. If this train wreck continues, I probably won't see most of you in a game again and it won't even be my conscious decision.

I'll admit I'd forgotten about the Scrabulous debacle, but yeah.  It's missing the lawsuits, thankfully.

Quote
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta

/crosses fingers

Well, Hasbro (the company owning the rights to Scrabble) is actually releasing (Words with Friends) in physical board game form; this is sadly, not a joke.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:31:03 am

Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will. Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Donald, just please stop taking things away from this kind of discussions.  There are always people complaining, and there are tons of people that don't.
Dude, I haven't taken anything away from anything. I am a rock of unlearning.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Voltaire on August 14, 2012, 11:33:05 am
Here's the biggest positive I can say about Goku - man, bots. Bots! And they're pretty good (relatively speaking), and you can play against them, and it makes four player games fast, and I can lose a lot of four-player games and go wow, I am not good at four-player Dominion. Then I play hundreds more games trying to fix that.

Anyway, the bots are impressive, all things considered.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: GendoIkari on August 14, 2012, 11:34:43 am
Really? I was thinking that they indicated no. iirc, one person hosts the game, and the cards must be taken from what that person has, entirely, so you can't mix and match like is being suggested here.
Initially I thought one person would host but now I think you can mix and match.

One thing I don't get about this business model... there's little incentive for anyone to actually pay any money; if they can just go online and find a game that other people who have paid money are hosting. Or am I not understanding properly how it works? I mean, in real life, only 1 of your friends has to buy Dominion because you all know each other and get together to play together. But on the internet, your "friends" could be made up of any number of thousands of people who are hosting a game.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 14, 2012, 11:35:18 am
Here's the biggest positive I can say about Goku - man, bots. Bots! And they're pretty good (relatively speaking), and you can play against them, and it makes four player games fast, and I can lose a lot of four-player games and go wow, I am not good at four-player Dominion. Then I play hundreds more games trying to fix that.

Anyway, the bots are impressive, all things considered.

The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 14, 2012, 11:36:32 am
Dude, I haven't taken anything away from anything. I am a rock of unlearning.

This reminds me of an excellent quote from rrenaud describing a mutual acquaintance as "immune to learning".  Good times.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 14, 2012, 11:36:39 am
As I've said in other places I like the official version, sure I'm sad I won't be able to play alchemy, hinterlands and cornucopia when it comes out but they'll get it done, they've shown an amazing amount of bug fixes and ui changes in such a small time frame of the beta. Do any of you remember the first 2 weeks of the beta, how many of you have played it recently, the difference is night and day. I think that they are commited to making a solid product.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:39:34 am
One thing I don't get about this business model... there's little incentive for anyone to actually pay any money; if they can just go online and find a game that other people who have paid money are hosting. Or am I not understanding properly how it works? I mean, in real life, only 1 of your friends has to buy Dominion because you all know each other and get together to play together. But on the internet, your "friends" could be made up of any number of thousands of people who are hosting a game.
Well if no-one buys Cornucopia, then no-one can play with it. So we are guessing that some people will buy it. And at the same time it will be cheap. You can play with someone else who bought it, and after playing a few games without it because your opponent didn't buy that one, maybe think, man, I could just pick that up.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 11:40:36 am
The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Not when Duke is out.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 14, 2012, 11:45:58 am
The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Not when Duke is out.

Well, I'm sure they'll flail like a dead fish when *CENSORED*, *CENSORED* and *CENSORED* are out.  Oh, oops, those were leaked Dark Ages cards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 14, 2012, 11:48:10 am
The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Not when Duke is out.

Well, I'm sure they'll flail like a dead fish when *CENSORED*, *CENSORED* and *CENSORED* are out.  Oh, oops, those were leaked Dark Ages cards.

Chicken, Chicken and Chicken?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on August 14, 2012, 11:48:35 am
By the way, Rats should be renamed Chicken.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 11:50:45 am
The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Not when Duke is out.


Yeah, I was shocked at how terrible the bot did with Duke out.  Letting me grab 7 Duchies and 8 Dukes was a bit nuts.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 14, 2012, 12:02:52 pm
The bots have gotten obnoxiously good.  They know exactly when to go for Duchies - it's uncanny - it's like they're programmed that way!
Not when Duke is out.


Yeah, I was shocked at how terrible the bot did with Duke out.  Letting me grab 7 Duchies and 8 Dukes was a bit nuts.

I played a bot game this morning - i thought the the bots had gotten savvy when it bought a duchy before a province.... and before I had started rushing duchies....

Game ended with me having 6 duchies and 8 dukes.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 12:36:00 pm
So the whole reason my annoyance at this whole mess began was because of this post from February 2011:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/6286314#6286314
Hey, here's what I take away from this! Don't tell people stuff, because there may be stuff you don't know that means you're wrong, and that will piss people off more than no information at all will.

Actually... as much as people keep telling you to not to take things the way they don't want you to take it, I think this actually might be exactly the right take-away message.  If the first we'd heard about this was, say, a few weeks before a beta, followed by a couple of months of beta, I don't think the resentment would have had time to build.  Major software companies don't announce a product 18 months in advance without something to actually show--and those that do usually do not end well (See: Daikatana; Duke Nukem Forever).  Hindsight's 20/20 I suppose, but I was apparently complaining about lack of screenshots/feature list when in fact there were no programmers at all, and no contract!  That's how bad the communication was!

Quote
Cue someone to say how ungrateful of me this is!

Lol, yeah. :)

Recently though I haven't even been bothered enough about Dominion to even think of going to Isotropic to play the game. I think the reason for that is because I'm spending my time here reading the forums and there's no interesting Dominion discussion. There's just whining and moaning about Isotropic closing and being replaced by an official product, which, as Kirian quite handily pointed out, WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT FOR THE LAST 18 MONTHS.

Man, whining about people whining is pretty meta.  Maybe you should starrt a discussion?  That said, about 80% of the posts recently were in the preview threads, which went to like 10 pages each!

One of the places I'm coming from here:  I run an entire subforum here, and I can't do anything with it due to the current unknowns.  That particular subforum produces a lot of discussion about some interesting games if you're willing to read it!  But for now it produces nothing.  And the new place isn't tournament ready yet.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 14, 2012, 01:01:54 pm
So, do people remember these posts from BGG? (emphasis mine)

(1/21/2012)
Quote
Just to clarify things on this issue if I can at this point. Over the past two years, RGG has been approached by a number of people asking to do a "casual" and free app for Dominion. In such cases, we have usually said yes with the stipulation that once the "official" Dominion app became available that the free app would be removed. Cory is one of those who asked and, as with others, we gave him permission to develop a free Dominion app, which I understand he has finished. I admit some surprise as it has been months since we last spoke and I had assumed he had decided not to complete the app. In any case, as long as it is free, it is allowed, at least for a few weeks until the licensed app becomes available.

I am sorry if there has been any confusion regarding this.

Thanks

Jay
RGG
(1/22/2012)
Quote
To update you all, we are now (including me) testing the Dominion app and I have been very pleased with the product the licensee has produced. I have played it using Safari, Firefox, iPad, and iPhone and it works well on all these platforms. I am told it works on others, but that is all I have at my immediate disposal. The IA is simple, but will certainly serve to help a new player learn the game and get started. We expect it to be available in the VERY near future and will announce a date as soon as we have one. Thanks!!

Jay

I'm honestly curious what was going on here. Was there an earlier project which was scrapped?
Was Jay straight up lying?
I'm not in the beta, but from the reports I've seen it doesn't sound like it would have been in a playable state back in January.
Any speculation/information?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jsh357 on August 14, 2012, 01:16:37 pm
I don't think it's impossible that an alpha version was ready by then.  We had a poster here who was able to describe it accurately several months before the public beta.  They were probably setting up the server, adding expansions, etc. during that time.  I've never developed a web app so I can't say how long that kind of thing takes.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 14, 2012, 01:22:48 pm
If you really care about making this work, you would play on it relentlessly, constantly offer feedback, and demonstrate a willingness to accept what is new, instead of perpetually whining about what you are giving up.
I do, but I post it on Goko's forums since that's what they read. :P
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 01:27:19 pm
I'm honestly curious what was going on here. Was there an earlier project which was scrapped?
Was Jay straight up lying?
He was not! He was making a guess based on incomplete information.

There is no earlier scrapped project; there is just, maybe certain other people were going to do it but that never sounded great and not making a decision there dragged out.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 01:28:53 pm
If you really care about making this work, you would play on it relentlessly, constantly offer feedback, and demonstrate a willingness to accept what is new, instead of perpetually whining about what you are giving up.
I do, but I post it on Goko's forums since that's what they read. :P
I have not taken the plunge of registering at those forums yet, so you could cross-post something here if you want me to see it and bug them about it, which is what happened with the shuffling bug, also thanks again there!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 01:30:55 pm
And the new place isn't tournament ready yet.
Incidentally Trisha will be running "manual" tournaments in the short term; "automatic" tournaments are a planned feature but def. not making the launch.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: zxcvbn2 on August 14, 2012, 01:43:22 pm
And the new place isn't tournament ready yet.
Incidentally Trisha will be running "manual" tournaments in the short term; "automatic" tournaments are a planned feature but def. not making the launch.


If she ever needs help putting those tournaments together, there are a few people here who would be glad to help I'm sure. :)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: brokoli on August 14, 2012, 01:49:49 pm
Dominion without Cornucopia ? IMPOSSIBLE.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 14, 2012, 01:56:32 pm
Dominion without Cornucopia ? IMPOSSIBLE.

... My favorite expansion by far.  ;D ;D ;D

Prosperity and Hinterlands tie for a distant second/third.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 14, 2012, 02:14:06 pm
Dominion without Cornucopia ? IMPOSSIBLE.

Oh, I'm sure having Dark Ages will more than compensate for this temporary loss.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 14, 2012, 02:15:56 pm
Dominion without Cornucopia ? IMPOSSIBLE.

Oh, I'm sure having Dark Ages will more than compensate for this temporary loss.

Correction: Having 1/3 of dark ages.  Also, you won't have hinterlands, cornucopia, or alchemy. 
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Jedit on August 14, 2012, 02:18:13 pm
Dude, I haven't taken anything away from anything. I am a rock of unlearning.

Aha, so we will see Duration cards return! :D
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 14, 2012, 02:33:41 pm
At this point, the thing most likely to drive me away from Dominion (pretty much entirely, since I don't have a great deal of people to play more-than-just-Base with IRL) is this community. It was this community that got me so wrapped up in Dominion once I discovered Isotropic. The discussions, friendliness, puzzles and articles were all so interesting and insightful that I stayed around and for a long time I was the third (and possibly second for a bit when Guided disappeared) most active member of the forums. Recently though I haven't even been bothered enough about Dominion to even think of going to Isotropic to play the game. I think the reason for that is because I'm spending my time here reading the forums and there's no interesting Dominion discussion. There's just whining and moaning about Isotropic closing and being replaced by an official product, which, as Kirian quite handily pointed out, WE'VE KNOWN ABOUT FOR THE LAST 18 MONTHS. We've also known for the vast majority of that time that it's not going to be a pay-for version of Isotropic, because we were told a long time ago that ChickenZ didn't want the job.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this but I've considered leaving this community a number of times over the last few months because of this, the only reason I haven't is because I've been here so long that I know I won't be able to just walk away. It's not somewhere that really makes me want to play a game that I love and enjoy like it used to anymore though. What's the point of playing a game if I can't have fun discussions about it too?

Unfortunately, at this point, there's no way I can make a statement such as "Funsockets will be getting my money on day 1", and it's nothing to do with Funsockets itself. I think Funsockets is a great implementation of a great game, in need of a few tweaks and additions, but otherwise great. It's this community that's holding my money from Funsockets.

I'm going to wait it out a month of so. If the naysaying doesn't stop, I'll have no choice but to walk away from what's been a huge and exciting part of the last few years of my life. If it does stop and the naysayers leave/get over it, I'll be able to continue enjoying my hobby.

I doubt it'll last. I mean, people always talk about what the latest is. When there were previews happening, there was discussion on the previews, and that went on. There's a whole subforum which sprang up in a week.

Now, isotropic is about to go down, and there's a new implementation - of *course* that's going to dominate discussion for a while. And considering how big news it is, that it'll take over the conversation is sort of unavoidable.

I would expect that once it actually comes out and people start playing in it, people will shift discussion to that. There'll be new Dark Ages cards. Someone will probably start up tournaments or a league on the new platform. And so on.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 03:40:18 pm
And the new place isn't tournament ready yet.
Incidentally Trisha will be running "manual" tournaments in the short term; "automatic" tournaments are a planned feature but def. not making the launch.


Can you explain?

The main reason I say not tournament ready is the inability to select a random set of cards.  Right now the randomness of a set is only known to one player.

Do you mean that one person will be able to initiate such a game at launch?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 03:47:27 pm
Can you explain?

The main reason I say not tournament ready is the inability to select a random set of cards.  Right now the randomness of a set is only known to one player.

Do you mean that one person will be able to initiate such a game at launch?
I am expecting pure random games at launch, and for only those games to be ranked for the pro leaderboard. The intention is to allow biases ala isotropic and I don't know where that stands.

The games where you see the ten cards first and can rerandomize will only be casual leaderboarded.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 14, 2012, 03:50:43 pm
That sounds great, and exactly what I would want for a pro/casual leaderboard.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 14, 2012, 03:57:19 pm
Can you explain?

The main reason I say not tournament ready is the inability to select a random set of cards.  Right now the randomness of a set is only known to one player.

Do you mean that one person will be able to initiate such a game at launch?
I am expecting pure random games at launch, and for only those games to be ranked for the pro leaderboard. The intention is to allow biases ala isotropic and I don't know where that stands.

The games where you see the ten cards first and can rerandomize will only be casual leaderboarded.

There's 1 item off the list!  Thanks DX!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 14, 2012, 04:04:42 pm
Can you explain?

The main reason I say not tournament ready is the inability to select a random set of cards.  Right now the randomness of a set is only known to one player.

Do you mean that one person will be able to initiate such a game at launch?
I am expecting pure random games at launch, and for only those games to be ranked for the pro leaderboard. The intention is to allow biases ala isotropic and I don't know where that stands.

The games where you see the ten cards first and can rerandomize will only be casual leaderboarded.

Excellent.  I'll scratch that off my list in the other thread when I'm on an actual computer.

Edit: lol ninja'd
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 14, 2012, 04:09:13 pm
That sounds great, and exactly what I would want for a pro/casual leaderboard.
There's also a third option, "unrated."
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 14, 2012, 04:10:32 pm
There's also a third option, "unrated."

UNRATED DOMINION BY DONALD XXX VACCARINO
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 14, 2012, 04:19:41 pm
There's also a third option, "unrated."

UNRATED DOMINION BY DONALD XXX VACCARINO

Can't wait to see the expansion Dominion: Harem's Gone Wild
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Young Nick on August 14, 2012, 09:33:06 pm
There's also a third option, "unrated."

UNRATED DOMINION BY DONALD XXX VACCARINO

This belongs in the RSP sub-forum, sheesh. You people are so disrespectful around these parts.
Theory, please fork this ASAP.

No, I'm not serious.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Rhombus on August 15, 2012, 12:15:18 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: werothegreat on August 15, 2012, 12:33:20 am
I'm really hoping that the first Dark Ages set will be up immediately on launch, because I'll most likely be purchasing it.  I just want to play with ***** again!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jonts26 on August 15, 2012, 12:53:32 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.

From what I understand the pro leaderboard will be for pure random, no sneak peek games. IMO this is the only way to do a realistic leaderboard. The problem, of course, is that lots of people don't like certain cards or want to no play certain kingdoms. Well, these people want a leaderboard too to give them appropriate matchups and to track their skill changes. So I am all in favor of having 2 leaderboards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on August 15, 2012, 01:14:22 am
Wow, thanks for this info Donald! Just wondering, can you make an Article here on your thoughts of the product when it launches?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 01:17:47 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.

From what I understand the pro leaderboard will be for pure random, no sneak peek games. IMO this is the only way to do a realistic leaderboard. The problem, of course, is that lots of people don't like certain cards or want to no play certain kingdoms. Well, these people want a leaderboard too to give them appropriate matchups and to track their skill changes. So I am all in favor of having 2 leaderboards.

From the sound of it, the pro leaderboard won't have veto mode, and I think that is awesome. On iso, I have it set to veto because too many people decline matches. I prefer pure random myself.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 01:48:43 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

So that people who spend a lot of time playing stuff that's not pure-random also get some sort of feeling of achievement for winning stuff, whereas people who want accurate rankings with random sets can have that, too.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 03:07:29 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.
It seems straightforward that people who want to include Colony in every game or whatever may still enjoy being rated, while at the same time people who want a hardcore test of skill may still want to play with shiny new cards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Rhombus on August 15, 2012, 03:41:03 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.
It seems straightforward that people who want to include Colony in every game or whatever may still enjoy being rated, while at the same time people who want a hardcore test of skill may still want to play with shiny new cards.

Will the pro board really be true random?  I'm bad at Prosperity and Cornucopia, but great Promo and Intrigue - maybe I should only buy those?  I think someone else's already mentioned this ... perhaps it can't be solved?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 03:52:01 am
While we're talking about it ... I suppose I don't see the point in having both a 'casual' and 'pro' leaderboard.  Why not just put focus on the pro leaderboard (random games make sense, predetermined kingdoms do not)?

For the record, I'm not a fan of bias games being ranked on a pro board - that doesn't make sense.
It seems straightforward that people who want to include Colony in every game or whatever may still enjoy being rated, while at the same time people who want a hardcore test of skill may still want to play with shiny new cards.

Will the pro board really be true random?  I'm bad at Prosperity and Cornucopia, but great Promo and Intrigue - maybe I should only buy those?  I think someone else's already mentioned this ... perhaps it can't be solved?

My guess is that one players set of cards is randomly chosen and then a random setup is chosen. So, let's say you don't buy Prosperity, but the other player did, my guess is that the game could choose to use your cards or his cards and so you could still come up against people playing Prosperity. As far as Cornucopia goes, well, that won't be available just yet. And, regarding promos, you will have to earn those, but Stash and Black Market aren't in the system just yet.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ashersky on August 15, 2012, 04:21:27 am
So I feel like I saw this somewhere, but in re-reading the whole thread, I couldn't find it.  I believe iOS and Android native apps are coming, but not on 8/16, correct?

Assuming so, if you join Goko, buy expansions, and play online via browser for now, my guess would be, when it is released, you could download the (presumably) free iOS/Android app, log in through it, and have access to the same cards you bought via broswer?  And if that is so, it would mean you always need an Internet connection to play via the future Dominion app?  Thinking about it more, maybe it's like the Ticket to Ride implementation where you unlock the cards via IAPs and they reside on your device so you can play offline--although then I don't know how that interacts with your previous purchase of DA pt. 1 (or Seaside, or whatever) via browser.  I just wonder if we're going to end up buying expansions twice if we start with the browser version and move to the native app.

For now, a required Internet connection is no change from what we have today, so nothing changes tomorrow on 8/16, but the idea of playing against Bots/adventure mode offline on the bus or train on my iPad was a hope for me someday.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ednever on August 15, 2012, 09:29:43 am
So I feel like I saw this somewhere, but in re-reading the whole thread, I couldn't find it.  I believe iOS and Android native apps are coming, but not on 8/16, correct?

Assuming so, if you join Goko, buy expansions, and play online via browser for now, my guess would be, when it is released, you could download the (presumably) free iOS/Android app, log in through it, and have access to the same cards you bought via broswer?  And if that is so, it would mean you always need an Internet connection to play via the future Dominion app?  Thinking about it more, maybe it's like the Ticket to Ride implementation where you unlock the cards via IAPs and they reside on your device so you can play offline--although then I don't know how that interacts with your previous purchase of DA pt. 1 (or Seaside, or whatever) via browser.  I just wonder if we're going to end up buying expansions twice if we start with the browser version and move to the native app.

For now, a required Internet connection is no change from what we have today, so nothing changes tomorrow on 8/16, but the idea of playing against Bots/adventure mode offline on the bus or train on my iPad was a hope for me someday.

When I was in Chicago I specifically asked Jay about offline play. He said it wasn't on the roadmap as "soon enough people will always be online"

I gave him the example of airplanes, but I think he though it was an edge case.

That said, he's leaving most of these types of decisions to goko anyway.

But he's not pushing it. (unless I convinced him to change his mind. Which I doubt)

Ed
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Davio on August 15, 2012, 10:06:48 am
Well, it's written in Javascript, no?
So couldn't an overachieving script kiddy just rip it off their servers anyway?

It's been a while since I did actual web programming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
And of course I don't condone this kind of behavior, but I'm just curious about the technical aspects.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 15, 2012, 10:09:26 am
Well, it's written in Javascript, no?
So couldn't an overachieving script kiddy just rip it off their servers anyway?

It's been a while since I did actual web programming, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
And of course I don't condone this kind of behavior, but I'm just curious about the technical aspects.

Sadly, no.
Otherwise someone could just rip isotropic off its server and we wouldn't have any issues.

(While you could save the local UI javascript, it won't do anything without a server to communicate with)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 12:30:12 pm
I wonder if this will launch midnight tonight, or if it will be sometime during Gen Con tomorrow.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 01:46:11 pm
Will the pro board really be true random?  I'm bad at Prosperity and Cornucopia, but great Promo and Intrigue - maybe I should only buy those?  I think someone else's already mentioned this ... perhaps it can't be solved?
My understanding is that the expansions of the two players are combined; if your opponent has Prosperity then the board may have Prosperity cards. You can only avoid Prosperity by avoiding people who bought it.

I don't think that gaming the system by limiting your expansions is solvable or needs solving. You can game the system by limiting who you play against; that might be worth addressing and possibly something can be done there.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 01:51:53 pm
For what its worth, I spent like three hours yesterday playing a random selection of bots, and my rating stayed pretty much constant, with the few losses canceling out the many wins. So that seems to be working.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:00:08 pm
Will the pro board really be true random?  I'm bad at Prosperity and Cornucopia, but great Promo and Intrigue - maybe I should only buy those?  I think someone else's already mentioned this ... perhaps it can't be solved?
My understanding is that the expansions of the two players are combined; if your opponent has Prosperity then the board may have Prosperity cards. You can only avoid Prosperity by avoiding people who bought it.

I don't think that gaming the system by limiting your expansions is solvable or needs solving. You can game the system by limiting who you play against; that might be worth addressing and possibly something can be done there.

I do not think this is true anymore. From my beta update

Quote
Of these changes, we'd like to point out that the base set cards will be availaible for free, while the other card sets will be available for purchase. You will, however, be able to play with any purchased cards with your friends as long as you set up the table.

emphasis mine
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 02:11:30 pm
I do not think this is true anymore. From my beta update

Quote
Of these changes, we'd like to point out that the base set cards will be availaible for free, while the other card sets will be available for purchase. You will, however, be able to play with any purchased cards with your friends as long as you set up the table.

emphasis mine
I see! Sorry if that disappoints anyone.

So yes this does let you avoid Prosperity provided you host the game. That is probably the most extreme case, well also any new expansion will give you more losses for a while so you could be slow to get them to dodge that. But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you? Avoiding Prosperity does let you avoid Platinum/Colony, although personally I'd think high-ranked players are happy to see them.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 02:15:17 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard? 
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 02:20:13 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?

Maybe but personally since I intend to own all the sets I can't see myself NOT hosting a game as I want to play with all the sets no questions asked. I liked the everyone brings their sets idea, but I mean if you own all the cards there is a strong incentive now to be the game hoster, which causes isolation among people that own all the sets :S
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 15, 2012, 02:31:42 pm
I think for the pro leaderboard, the host should be random as should the kingdom setup. I also plan on buying all the sets, but I think making the host random stops people from gaming the system who avoid certain expansions.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 15, 2012, 02:38:19 pm
i could be wrong, but i think that Isotropic currently counts proposed games with cards randomly chosen from only a few sets for the leaderboard.  ie, a random set chosen from only seaside and prosperity cards. assuming this is actually the case, i don't see what the issue would be if it was this way on isotropic too. it would just be a continuation of what we are already used to.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 02:39:41 pm
i could be wrong, but i think that Isotropic currently counts proposed games with cards randomly chosen from only a few sets for the leaderboard.  ie, a random set chosen from only seaside and prosperity cards. assuming this is actually the case, i don't see what the issue would be if it was this way on isotropic too. it would just be a continuation of what we are already used to.
False. The only thing you can do on iso, while still being ranked, is bias the selection towards certain sets, but you'll still get cards from every set.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: greatexpectations on August 15, 2012, 03:04:09 pm
False.

any source for this?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 15, 2012, 03:05:30 pm
False.

any source for this?
There should be some old thread about it in the Isotropic Discussion forum. It was done to solve the Paralyzed problem.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:09:03 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:10:38 pm
any source for this?
There should be some old thread about it in the Isotropic Discussion forum. It was done to solve the Paralyzed problem.
This is my memory also. In any case you sure don't want to pro-rank games where any cards were specifically chosen.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 15, 2012, 04:11:31 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?

People have shown significant skills playing, for example, with a much-higher-than-average percentage of platinum/colony boards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 04:14:48 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?

Seaside specifically - not sure.  I'm sure someone will do something clever like only buy prosperity though.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 04:16:45 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?

Seaside specifically - not sure.  I'm sure someone will do something clever like only buy prosperity though.

And Intruige? Masq+Goon+KC pin?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 04:19:37 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?

Seaside specifically - not sure.  I'm sure someone will do something clever like only buy prosperity though.

And Intruige? Masq+Goon+KC pin?

The rumor is that preselected kingdoms won't count toward pro leaderboard.  But a full random kingdom that includes colony / plat 50% of the time for me, and 25% of the time for you - is a big advantage to me - assuming we are both highly skilled.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 15, 2012, 04:22:14 pm
People have shown significant skills playing, for example, with a much-higher-than-average percentage of platinum/colony boards.
Yes, I conceded that one.

Oh I see. So by not buying Seaside you increase the number of Platinum/Colony boards.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Insomniac on August 15, 2012, 04:23:08 pm
But like if you decide to not buy Seaside as a leaderboard gambit, what does that really get you?

It gets you to the top of the leaderboard?
I just don't see it! You dodge Sea Hag games where you open 5/2?

Seaside specifically - not sure.  I'm sure someone will do something clever like only buy prosperity though.

And Intruige? Masq+Goon+KC pin?

The rumor is that preselected kingdoms won't count toward pro leaderboard.  But a full random kingdom that includes colony / plat 50% of the time for me, and 25% of the time for you - is a big advantage to me - assuming we are both highly skilled.

Assuming additionally we are both equally skilled with colony plat, if you blow with colony/plat it won't help you at all ;) But I get that. And what I meant is if you have both sets you are more likely to see the pin then if you have more sets or don't have the requisite sets and you could get super good at playing that pin.

A good solution here is to make the hoster the person whom has more sets or in the case of a tie random
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 15, 2012, 04:27:32 pm
Assuming additionally we are both equally skilled with colony plat, if you blow with colony/plat it won't help you at all ;) But I get that. And what I meant is if you have both sets you are more likely to see the pin then if you have more sets or don't have the requisite sets and you could get super good at playing that pin.

A good solution here is to make the hoster the person whom has more sets or in the case of a tie random

Or just make the expansions reasonably affordable, and require ownership of all sets for inclusion in the hardcore leaderboard.
Adds an incentive for purchase, and I doubt many serious players won't want to own all the sets after all.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 04:44:54 pm
Assuming additionally we are both equally skilled with colony plat, if you blow with colony/plat it won't help you at all ;) But I get that. And what I meant is if you have both sets you are more likely to see the pin then if you have more sets or don't have the requisite sets and you could get super good at playing that pin.

A good solution here is to make the hoster the person whom has more sets or in the case of a tie random

Or just make the expansions reasonably affordable, and require ownership of all sets for inclusion in the hardcore leaderboard.
Adds an incentive for purchase, and I doubt many serious players won't want to own all the sets after all.

Barsooma, are you being reasonable?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 04:48:15 pm
People have shown significant skills playing, for example, with a much-higher-than-average percentage of platinum/colony boards.
Yes, I conceded that one.

Oh I see. So by not buying Seaside you increase the number of Platinum/Colony boards.
I would probably also do my best to not own the governor card.  I don't know for sure that its "lower skill" - but I do know that I suck with it - and the reduction of 2 turns off the game in average i think heightens 1p advantage.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 15, 2012, 04:48:41 pm
Assuming additionally we are both equally skilled with colony plat, if you blow with colony/plat it won't help you at all ;) But I get that. And what I meant is if you have both sets you are more likely to see the pin then if you have more sets or don't have the requisite sets and you could get super good at playing that pin.

A good solution here is to make the hoster the person whom has more sets or in the case of a tie random

Or just make the expansions reasonably affordable, and require ownership of all sets for inclusion in the hardcore leaderboard.
Adds an incentive for purchase, and I doubt many serious players won't want to own all the sets after all.

Barsooma, are you being reasonable?

who ees thees Bharr-suma?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 04:57:42 pm
Heh. I personally wouldn't bother trying to game the rating system by buying or not buying sets or cards...

I would expect that if you do something reasonable, then the good players will float to the top anyway.

Hey! Maybe you can do something crazy like weighting the rankings by card? To guarantee that Colony games count for (exactly the expected percentage of your rating), and so on. That would mean you wouldn't HAVE to buy all the sets to be highly rated, but you probably would have a very uncertain rating with a lot of the cards if you've only played with them like once or something.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 15, 2012, 05:01:58 pm
Heh. I personally wouldn't bother trying to game the rating system by buying or not buying sets or cards...

I would expect that if you do something reasonable, then the good players will float to the top anyway.

Hey! Maybe you can do something crazy like weighting the rankings by card? To guarantee that Colony games count for (exactly the expected percentage of your rating), and so on. That would mean you wouldn't HAVE to buy all the sets to be highly rated, but you probably would have a very uncertain rating with a lot of the cards if you've only played with them like once or something.

It's not a question of floating near the top, but being #1.  I wouldn't actually do it - but you know that someone will.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 05:37:15 pm
.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 15, 2012, 05:53:31 pm
Heh. I personally wouldn't bother trying to game the rating system by buying or not buying sets or cards...

I would expect that if you do something reasonable, then the good players will float to the top anyway.

Hey! Maybe you can do something crazy like weighting the rankings by card? To guarantee that Colony games count for (exactly the expected percentage of your rating), and so on. That would mean you wouldn't HAVE to buy all the sets to be highly rated, but you probably would have a very uncertain rating with a lot of the cards if you've only played with them like once or something.

It's not a question of floating near the top, but being #1.  I wouldn't actually do it - but you know that someone will.

But I don't think it's that big of an advantage.

Like, in automatch, fully half your matches will be with the other people's cards, so that's half the advantage gone. And you don't even pick your own card sets - and Base will always be an option. So the most you could do is bias to Base+1 other set, so you'll get a lot of boring Base games, where you get no advantage because everyone knows how to play Base. I mean, maybe it's a little bit of an advantage because you might beat some better players sometimes in a BM+witch game, but that bites both ways - if you ever get a good ranking playing this way, you'll lose a lot of games you shouldn't.

I just don't see it as a major problem, and I don't see how you could use this to get to #1. Not any more effective than just, like, biasing Prosperity or something.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: pst on August 15, 2012, 06:17:34 pm
Oh I see. So by not buying Seaside you increase the number of Platinum/Colony boards.

Wouldn't it be good if you could use whatever subset of the sets you have? Then no missed buy because someone is afraid to buy a set they don't want to play with most of the time. Just like in real life you don't have to bring out all your sets to a gaming night just because you own them.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 15, 2012, 06:20:02 pm
Oh I see. So by not buying Seaside you increase the number of Platinum/Colony boards.

Wouldn't it be good if you could use whatever subset of the sets you have? Then no missed buy because someone is afraid to buy a set they don't want to play with most of the time. Just like in real life you don't have to bring out all your sets to a gaming night just because you own them.

I had a gaming night tonight and Alchemy stayed firmly on the shelf!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 15, 2012, 06:26:43 pm
.

Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 16, 2012, 11:13:01 am
.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 16, 2012, 11:15:26 am
 :-X
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: () | (_) ^/ on August 16, 2012, 11:15:45 am
:-X

 >:(
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Schlippy on August 16, 2012, 11:35:03 am
So, have they given some sort of timeframe for when it goes online? The day is already over in Japan and 2/3 of Australia, and it's kind of evening in Europe. :>
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 16, 2012, 11:36:32 am
So, have they given some sort of timeframe for when it goes online? The day is already over in Japan and 2/3 of Australia, and it's kind of evening in Europe. :>

Nope - twitter announced the launch - and then quickly announced that they were having technical problems.  I suspect the safe thing to do is just wait until tomorrow and enjoy playing iso.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Schlippy on August 16, 2012, 11:39:03 am
I certainly will do, but I want to have the lowest ID possible by registering as early as possible. (Unless they didn't wipe their account database, because then I will have lost the game already. :>)

Besides that I simply want to try it, because after all I never got a beta invite.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 02:57:44 pm
From the Goko Twitter page:

"No ETA yet, but scout's honor that we'll send an update as soon as we get one. "

The irony of this statement is surely lost on whoever types the tweets.  Nothing like swearing on the honor of the worst Dominion card that you'll have your Dominion server up soon!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 16, 2012, 02:59:14 pm
Did anyone else get the log in page with the username password request and try Admin/Admin?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: bozzball on August 16, 2012, 03:03:07 pm
From the Goko Twitter page:

"No ETA yet, but scout's honor that we'll send an update as soon as we get one. "

The irony of this statement is surely lost on whoever types the tweets.  Nothing like swearing on the honor of the worst Dominion card that you'll have your Dominion server up soon!

Link to twitter page please?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 03:03:15 pm
Did anyone else get the log in page with the username password request and try Admin/Admin?
What link are you using?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 03:03:45 pm
From the Goko Twitter page:

"No ETA yet, but scout's honor that we'll send an update as soon as we get one. "

The irony of this statement is surely lost on whoever types the tweets.  Nothing like swearing on the honor of the worst Dominion card that you'll have your Dominion server up soon!

Link to twitter page please?
https://twitter.com/gokogames
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 03:04:17 pm
Strangely, the beta is still up. It's not linked from dominion.goko.com (http://dominion.goko.com) anymore, but you can still get to it directly.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 16, 2012, 03:08:40 pm
Strangely, the beta is still up. It's not linked from dominion.goko.com (http://dominion.goko.com) anymore, but you can still get to it directly.

Yup. I just logged onto the beta. It is so weird to see beta up and not the real launch. I want to play with DA cards!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: syzygy on August 16, 2012, 03:09:31 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if they left the beta site up for a while for testing out cards they haven't implemented yet.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Scott Pilgrim on August 16, 2012, 03:16:23 pm
(Unless they didn't wipe their account database, because then I will have lost the game already. :>)

Thanks... now I just lost The Game.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 16, 2012, 03:17:38 pm
(Unless they didn't wipe their account database, because then I will have lost the game already. :>)

Thanks... now I just lost The Game.

Arggghhhhh.....damn you!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 16, 2012, 03:18:30 pm
From the Goko Twitter page:

"No ETA yet, but scout's honor that we'll send an update as soon as we get one. "

The irony of this statement is surely lost on whoever types the tweets.  Nothing like swearing on the honor of the worst Dominion card that you'll have your Dominion server up soon!

Now we know this is another four months away.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 16, 2012, 03:22:34 pm
You would think that a company making web-based products would have more than 12 tweets in its history. (10 today and 2 on 7/31).  That + failed Dominion launch = kinda amateurish.       
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 16, 2012, 03:28:15 pm
You would think that a company making web-based products would have more than 12 tweets in its history. (10 today and 2 on 7/31).  That + failed Dominion launch = kinda amateurish.       

Top be honest, I kind of expected this would happen. My thoughts last night were that this wouldn't launch on time. It will probably be up sometime during Gen Con, but I just had a gut feeling this would happen. Also, the lack of communication from Goko is frustrating. I mean, why not reveal the pricing plan ahead of time, among other things. The whole thing has been in the dark and so secretive. I mean, aside from DA cards, there really isn't anything to hide. But, yah, I saw this coming.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 16, 2012, 03:31:15 pm
You would think that a company making web-based products would have more than 12 tweets in its history. (10 today and 2 on 7/31).  That + failed Dominion launch = kinda amateurish.       

Top be honest, I kind of expected this would happen. My thoughts last night were that this wouldn't launch on time. It will probably be up sometime during Gen Con, but I just had a gut feeling this would happen. Also, the lack of communication from Goko is frustrating. I mean, why not reveal the pricing plan ahead of time, among other things. The whole thing has been in the dark and so secretive. I mean, aside from DA cards, there really isn't anything to hide. But, yah, I saw this coming.

Honestly I'm now a lot more worried about how they're trying to brand themselves as the new center for online boardgame developers.
So far today I've seen announced RFTG, Citadels, Catan and I think one other I'm forgetting?
I really think they're going to end up spread too thin and we're gonna have a flashy but very buggy Dominion for a long time.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Tdog on August 16, 2012, 03:33:16 pm
You would think that a company making web-based products would have more than 12 tweets in its history. (10 today and 2 on 7/31).  That + failed Dominion launch = kinda amateurish.       

Top be honest, I kind of expected this would happen. My thoughts last night were that this wouldn't launch on time. It will probably be up sometime during Gen Con, but I just had a gut feeling this would happen. Also, the lack of communication from Goko is frustrating. I mean, why not reveal the pricing plan ahead of time, among other things. The whole thing has been in the dark and so secretive. I mean, aside from DA cards, there really isn't anything to hide. But, yah, I saw this coming.

Honestly I'm now a lot more worried about how they're trying to brand themselves as the new center for online boardgame developers.
So far today I've seen announced RFTG, Citadels, Catan and I think one other I'm forgetting?
I really think they're going to end up spread too thin and we're gonna have a flashy but very buggy Dominion for a long time.

But Dominion is, when it launches, their first functioning product. I'd expect them to make it look good.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 16, 2012, 03:35:12 pm
You would think that a company making web-based products would have more than 12 tweets in its history. (10 today and 2 on 7/31).  That + failed Dominion launch = kinda amateurish.       

Top be honest, I kind of expected this would happen. My thoughts last night were that this wouldn't launch on time. It will probably be up sometime during Gen Con, but I just had a gut feeling this would happen. Also, the lack of communication from Goko is frustrating. I mean, why not reveal the pricing plan ahead of time, among other things. The whole thing has been in the dark and so secretive. I mean, aside from DA cards, there really isn't anything to hide. But, yah, I saw this coming.

Honestly I'm now a lot more worried about how they're trying to brand themselves as the new center for online boardgame developers.
So far today I've seen announced RFTG, Citadels, Catan and I think one other I'm forgetting?
I really think they're going to end up spread too thin and we're gonna have a flashy but very buggy Dominion for a long time.

But Dominion is, when it launches, their first functioning product. I'd expect them to make it look good.

Look good sure, but actually BE good? I dunno.
Their model seems to be focused on fast development, which may mean polishing falls by the wayside.

Also, since they seem to be hoping to launch hundreds of games in the near future, how much extra development can possibly be justified for a single one of those 6 months out?
I would much rather have seen a company which was focused solely on providing an awesome Dominion game, rather than a "social gaming platform".

I guess previously I thought that Goko was commissioned by RGG to create digital Dominion. Now it seems more like RGG sold out the IP for Goko to use as their launch product.
And that doesn't give me warm fuzzies about the future.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jamuspsi on August 16, 2012, 04:30:27 pm
Having played the beta, I can say that it's really improved a lot in the last month or so.  After a few games when I got over the fact that it isn't arranged like and doesn't feel like iso, it became enjoyable just the same.

I also got the feeling- speaking of gut feelings- that the developer(s) have kind of gotten into the game.  Dominion has always seemed to be an extra-attractive game for programmers.  I've seen a few bugs, sure, but I've also seen some really careful attention to detail- like being able to reveal moat twice to one action, for instance.  I'm much more optimistic about it than I was a couple months ago, and I think the extra time they're taking actually supports that.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: methods of rationality on August 16, 2012, 06:13:44 pm
If this thing doesn't launch by 8/22, do we think they will keep iso up past then? (and maybe with dark ages cards)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: michaeljb on August 16, 2012, 08:08:12 pm
I doubt it.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 08:13:15 pm
It's a safe bet it will be launched by 8/22, anyway.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Tombolo on August 16, 2012, 08:38:46 pm
....is it?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 08:57:51 pm
....is it?
Yeah. The beta version works well enough. Whatever it is that's holding them up, there's no way it can take more than a week to resolve.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 16, 2012, 09:00:50 pm
....is it?
Yeah. The beta version works well enough. Whatever it is that's holding them up, there's no way it can take more than a week to resolve.

Aren't you the guy who just found some severe issues...?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 09:04:28 pm
....is it?
Yeah. The beta version works well enough. Whatever it is that's holding them up, there's no way it can take more than a week to resolve.

Aren't you the guy who just found some severe issues...?
The cheating stuff is not a big deal, because most of it is detectable (so you can ban the offender), and the non-detectable exploits are relatively modest (e.g. peeking on your opponent's current hand). It needs fixing eventually, but it doesn't need to hold up release.

The XSS exploit, on the other hand, is serious and really should be fixed before launch. Shouldn't take long to do though.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 16, 2012, 09:12:12 pm
....is it?
Yeah. The beta version works well enough. Whatever it is that's holding them up, there's no way it can take more than a week to resolve.

Aren't you the guy who just found some severe issues...?
The cheating stuff is not a big deal, because most of it is detectable (so you can ban the offender), and the non-detectable exploits are relatively modest (e.g. peeking on your opponent's current hand). It needs fixing eventually, but it doesn't need to hold up release.

The XSS exploit, on the other hand, is serious and really should be fixed before launch. Shouldn't take long to do though.

peaking at your opponents hand is huge when it comes to PPR
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rspeer on August 16, 2012, 09:13:10 pm
Is it true that we have until 8/22 to keep playing on Isotropic? That's reasonably good news, but surprisingly specific given the lack of information. Where did it come from?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 16, 2012, 09:25:19 pm
....is it?
Yeah. The beta version works well enough. Whatever it is that's holding them up, there's no way it can take more than a week to resolve.

Aren't you the guy who just found some severe issues...?
The cheating stuff is not a big deal, because most of it is detectable (so you can ban the offender), and the non-detectable exploits are relatively modest (e.g. peeking on your opponent's current hand). It needs fixing eventually, but it doesn't need to hold up release.

The XSS exploit, on the other hand, is serious and really should be fixed before launch. Shouldn't take long to do though.

peaking at your opponents hand is huge when it comes to PPR
I agree. But it only affects people who play with cheaters, so for casual play it's largely a non-issue. The pro leaderboard won't be entirely credible until cheating is impossible, but that's not enough to hold up release IMO.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: methods of rationality on August 16, 2012, 09:49:44 pm
Fron http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/839965/boardgamearena-shutting-down-dominon-official-v
Mark Judd
(Beaveman)
      
Re: BoardGameArena shutting down Dominon... Official version soon?
[q="lfisher"]
Quote:
...
Dominion will be taken down from BGA on August 22th.
...

Isn't August 22 a date that has been thrown around for the approximate release of Dark Ages? It would seem kind of fitting that Dark Ages and the official electronic version are released at the same time.
3   
 Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:20 pm
QuickReply QuickQuote Reply Quote
Chris Ferejohn
(cferejohn)
      
Re: BoardGameArena shutting down Dominon... Official version soon?
Is isotropic going down as well?
   
 Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:37 pm
QuickReply QuickQuote Reply Quote
Doug Z
(spongyform)
      
 Re: BoardGameArena shutting down Dominon... Official version soon?
cferejohn wrote:
Is isotropic going down as well?

Yes, same date.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: bedlam on August 16, 2012, 11:50:37 pm
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rbruba on August 17, 2012, 12:02:21 am
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.

http://twitter.com/gokogames
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Dsell on August 17, 2012, 12:08:34 am
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.

http://twitter.com/gokogames

They are getting pretty reamed on there for screwing up their launch. :-\ And they're responding to pretty much every tweet, positive and negative.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 17, 2012, 12:35:13 am
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.

http://twitter.com/gokogames

They are getting pretty reamed on there for screwing up their launch. :-\ And they're responding to pretty much every tweet, positive and negative.

I hate to say this, but they rightfully so do deserve to get some heat. A press release went out today saying that it would be out today. That is kind of silly.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Dsell on August 17, 2012, 12:46:47 am
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.

http://twitter.com/gokogames

They are getting pretty reamed on there for screwing up their launch. :-\ And they're responding to pretty much every tweet, positive and negative.

I hate to say this, but they rightfully so do deserve to get some heat. A press release went out today saying that it would be out today. That is kind of silly.

Oh I completely agree. It's unprofessional and of course it sucks for all of us who want to play. But still, calling them out on twitter isn't really gonna make things go any faster. So I was surprised to see them responding to all those tweets.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: jonts26 on August 17, 2012, 12:52:29 am
From the Goko Twitter page:


What is Goko's twitter handle? I cannot seem to find it.

http://twitter.com/gokogames

They are getting pretty reamed on there for screwing up their launch. :-\ And they're responding to pretty much every tweet, positive and negative.

I hate to say this, but they rightfully so do deserve to get some heat. A press release went out today saying that it would be out today. That is kind of silly.

Oh I completely agree. It's unprofessional and of course it sucks for all of us who want to play. But still, calling them out on twitter isn't really gonna make things go any faster. So I was surprised to see them responding to all those tweets.

I think it's called damage control.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 01:00:29 am
Ouch, some of the negative tweets are pretty brutal.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 17, 2012, 01:02:24 am
Ouch, some of the negative tweets are pretty brutal.

That's what happens when you keep telling everyone it will be out a certain date, have a press release come out the day of and then have nothing to show for it.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 17, 2012, 02:03:40 am
Someone on Iso had the status "Goko: games that go nowhere!"  Ouch.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 17, 2012, 02:07:18 am
Eh, if they get it out soon this will blow over.  Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.  Especially since the base set can be played for free, it's hard for me to imagine that more than a handful of people will completely refuse to even try it solely because of Goko's current behavior.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Tombolo on August 17, 2012, 02:32:17 am
I don't think they will specifically refuse, but I think there will be quiiite a few potential customers lost from press releases that link to nothing.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Not a Cylon on August 17, 2012, 02:48:04 am
Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.

That's true. Unfortunately, I can tell you there will be plenty to be pissed off about after it's released. The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 17, 2012, 04:21:16 am
Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.

That's true. Unfortunately, I can tell you there will be plenty to be pissed off about after it's released. The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DStu on August 17, 2012, 04:33:43 am
Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.

That's true. Unfortunately, I can tell you there will be plenty to be pissed off about after it's released. The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

I'm quite sure that has something to do with pizzas... (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=175.msg2243#msg2243)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 04:55:05 am
Goko has done some bumbling in the leadup to the release (the whole process really), but the main deciding factor in its success will be the playability of the product on release.

That's true. Unfortunately, I can tell you there will be plenty to be pissed off about after it's released. The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?
Over in the BGG thread, someone made the argument that the majority of computerized board game players play games offline vs AI and don't touch multiplayer. (I don't know whether this is right, but it's believable.) If so, a lack of offline support will bother a lot more people than isotropic going down bothers, and unlike the isotropic people (who are merely going from a great implementation to an okay one), the people who want offline support will have nothing at all.

Edit: Here's the post I mentioned. (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/12629?commentid=3132391#comment3132391) I misquoted it a little (since he was talking about some particular PC game, not computerized board games in general), but I got the gist right I think.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: yudantaiteki on August 17, 2012, 05:04:43 am
If people are upset by the vocal criticism of Goko here, they should stay away from BGG -- the threads there make the threads here look like nothing.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 05:06:57 am
While picking out BGG posts, I also thought this one was insightful (http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/12629?commentid=3132887#comment3132887). Excerpt:
Quote
A well-made, standalone Dominion app would likely be just as successful, if not more so, than Ticket to Ride has been.

A multi-platform, web-based digital gaming platform makes more sense as an affordable option for the less popular games that may not be able to stand on their own.
This makes a lot of sense to me. Any multi-platform approach is inherently going to deliver a worse experience on any given platform than is possible by writing for that platform specifically. It can be worth it if you can't afford to write platform-specific apps, but Dominion is quite popular, so it seems totally plausible that it could support both an iOS-native app with offline play and desktop app (maybe HTML5, maybe Flash) and still be financially viable.

Then you don't have this weird situation now where the iOS users are totally unhappy while meanwhile the desktop players are somewhat happy yet have problems with the concessions made to target the iPad, such as fixed play area size, lots of dragging, etc.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DStu on August 17, 2012, 05:17:20 am
I thought there would be native iOS and Android apps? Not just now?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 05:22:06 am
I thought there would be native iOS and Android apps? Not just now?
To my knowledge, all they've said is that if there is enough demand, they'll look into supporting offline play eventually. So... pretty far off, and that still might not mean a native client, but instead moving enough server logic to the client so that it can be played from cache.

Edit: Found it (http://uk.gamespot.com/news/dominion-dealt-to-pc-ios-android-6391910):
Quote
At the moment, there is no offline mode for Goko's games, but Griggs said such a feature could be added if users demanded it.
This to me says: there are no plans for offline play at the moment, but they are not ruling it out as a possibility. Which means it's not coming for a long time.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DStu on August 17, 2012, 05:26:33 am
I thought there would be native iOS and Android apps? Not just now?
To my knowledge, all they've said is that if there is enough demand, they'll look into supporting offline play eventually. So... pretty far off, and that still might not mean a native client, but instead moving enough server logic to the client so that it can be played from cache.

Not talking about offline, talking about apps for online play.  Supporting offline play is a completely different story, or?  You could also do offline in a browser on the desktop, I suspect without much work.  Just let the client download the html, slightly change the code to direct to file:// , set a bookmark and there you go?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 05:29:47 am
I thought there would be native iOS and Android apps? Not just now?
To my knowledge, all they've said is that if there is enough demand, they'll look into supporting offline play eventually. So... pretty far off, and that still might not mean a native client, but instead moving enough server logic to the client so that it can be played from cache.

Not talking about offline, talking about apps for online play.  Supporting offline play is a completely different story, or?  You could also do offline in a browser on the desktop, I suspect without much work.  Just let the client download the html, slightly change the code to direct to file:// , set a bookmark and there you go?
Ah okay, I misunderstood. I haven't seen anything about plans to make a native client to connect to their existing servers. There is an app submitted to the app store, but it's likely just a wrapper for the web client.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 17, 2012, 07:05:03 am
I thought there would be native iOS and Android apps? Not just now?
To my knowledge, all they've said is that if there is enough demand, they'll look into supporting offline play eventually. So... pretty far off, and that still might not mean a native client, but instead moving enough server logic to the client so that it can be played from cache.

Not talking about offline, talking about apps for online play.  Supporting offline play is a completely different story, or?  You could also do offline in a browser on the desktop, I suspect without much work.  Just let the client download the html, slightly change the code to direct to file:// , set a bookmark and there you go?

Doing an offline web app without allowing everyone to steal all your server code will require a level of careful development which Goko has given me absolutely no reason to believe they are capable of.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Jedit on August 17, 2012, 07:57:53 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 17, 2012, 08:04:42 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 17, 2012, 08:23:17 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.

We are all dicks for sure, but the goko beta isn't exactly smooth, even on a high end pc.  It ran like dog crap on my g1 iPad, but ascension is super sweet.  I can understand the preference for native implementation if you insist on making a flashy hi, instead of barebones.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 08:41:26 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 17, 2012, 08:54:14 pm
Doesn't Android have a higher market share than iOS now?  If not, it's got to be very close.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 17, 2012, 08:59:38 pm
Doesn't Android have a higher market share than iOS now?  If not, it's got to be very close.

Apple users pay for apps though. I'll fid a source later if I remember
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 09:01:30 pm
Doesn't Android have a higher market share than iOS now?  If not, it's got to be very close.
Market share of the OS isn't the key factor though. From what I've read, game devs sell more on iOS (maybe because the app store is good? or because the users are more willing to pay for games?) and the development cost is less (less fragmentation of hardware and such).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Ozle on August 17, 2012, 09:06:21 pm
Pretty sure the size of android market is bigger, but devs make much more from ios (as does apple)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 17, 2012, 09:08:55 pm
Doesn't Android have a higher market share than iOS now?  If not, it's got to be very close.
Market share of the OS isn't the key factor though. From what I've read, game devs sell more on iOS (maybe because the app store is good? or because the users are more willing to pay for games?) and the development cost is less (less fragmentation of hardware and such).

Ah.  Thanks!

I don't know about Apple's App store, but Android has a lot of good stuff for free.  Nonetheless, I tend to buy the "Pro" versions of apps to support the devs.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 09:09:16 pm
Did a quick Google for articles and this one seemed pretty good for a start (read Jon David's reply, in particular) (http://www.geekwire.com/2012/android-ios-app-developers-bet/).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 17, 2012, 10:07:32 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 17, 2012, 10:21:14 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...
Fair enough, I just see enough "iPad ::)"-type comments that I read more into your post than was there.

The thing is that optimizing for the iPad doesn't mean being platform-exclusive. The real question is whether the same client codebase should be targeting every platform, or whether each targeted platform should receive separate development. FunSockets has apparently based their entire business around developing in HTML5 to hit every platform at once (which is bold and likely why they got funding), but it's really not clear that HTML5 is up to the task yet, especially on mobile devices.

The difference between the Goko-on-desktop situation and the Goko-on-mobile situation is that, once the launch and security problems are worked out, Goko on desktop will be pretty good. (Not quite as good as isotropic, true, but a totally reasonable implementation.) On the other hand, Goko-on-mobile was reportedly quite a bit less playable in the beta, and there are fundamental problems that can't be easily fixed--offline play, for example, will take a ton of work given that they apparently weren't planning to support it.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 17, 2012, 10:49:50 pm
The lack of offline play on the iPad, for instance, is a shitstorm waiting to happen.

Seriously, can someone explain why this would be?

Because basically every other deckbuilding game adapted for the iPad has it, and because not everyone's iPad is in a Wifi hotspot at all times.  Also see Diablo III.
...and because iPad users demand that everything be optimized for their device.
I know this is trolling, but I feel compelled to respond anyway.

First off, buying a non-iOS mobile device is like using a non-Windows desktop OS. You just can't expect as many games, because most of the game developers primarily target iOS/Windows, and most people who care about games use iOS/Windows, because of that. So while you're free to choose whichever mobile device you like, it rankles me a bit to complain about games when you chose a platform that gets fewer games, just like an iOS user would be silly to complain too much about lack of customizability.

Second, mobile devices benefit a lot from native apps, much more than desktop OSes. For example:
  • Mobile devices are not as powerful as even laptop computers, so performance is a big deal.
  • Screen size is limited, so the app needs to be designed for the particular screen. Each device with a different screen size potentially needs a re-thinking of the design in order to have a good interface.
  • It's difficult to accurately fake native touch response, for scrolling, etc.

Third, iOS devices alone are a big games market. If the market is that big, it's not unreasonable to expect a top-notch offering. If it isn't top-notch, there are lots of alternatives to play instead.
So, uh, I wasn't actually trying to troll. Just making an observation that you seem to in fact agree with. Like, I am not saying you are wrong to demand such things, just that you demand them.

In this particular case, I find it funny, because their software is just total garbage everywhere, and people are like "it isn't optimized for us", and I'm like, "it's a terrible product everywhere - it's not that they hate you particularly".

Having said that, your argument for 'well, but they should pay more attention to us' is sorta messed up. If it were a question of iOS vs some other mobile platform exclusively, then yeah, that would sorta make sense (though on the other hand, your reasoning is the exact same thing as the crappy price scale, except it favors you here). But that's not the comparison - you're also looking at people playing from browsers on laptops and desktops and what have you, and that's a much bigger market.

Of course, what we actually have is something that work well exactly nowhere - well, maybe in their headquarters it works fine. But nowhere for the public. Which makes the whole thing kinda moot...
Fair enough, I just see enough "iPad ::)"-type comments that I read more into your post than was there.

The thing is that optimizing for the iPad doesn't mean being platform-exclusive. The real question is whether the same client codebase should be targeting every platform, or whether each targeted platform should receive separate development. FunSockets has apparently based their entire business around developing in HTML5 to hit every platform at once (which is bold and likely why they got funding), but it's really not clear that HTML5 is up to the task yet, especially on mobile devices.

The difference between the Goko-on-desktop situation and the Goko-on-mobile situation is that, once the launch and security problems are worked out, Goko on desktop will be pretty good. (Not quite as good as isotropic, true, but a totally reasonable implementation.) On the other hand, Goko-on-mobile was reportedly quite a bit less playable in the beta, and there are fundamental problems that can't be easily fixed--offline play, for example, will take a ton of work given that they apparently weren't planning to support it.

Two things: One, you have a lot more optimism than I do. It seems to me that they know how to code some stuff, but you know, I know how to code some stuff, and I would never ever try to write a platform* like they are....

Second, I guess the real thing is you are trying to make this like, apples-to-apples comparison, right? But then you start talking about offline play, which is something you... don't get in a browser. So really you want something different. Not that there's really anything wrong with wanting that, but the thing I don't understand is why there is this presumption that you are expecting to get it. Like, you start out saying, oh, it can all be the same, but by the end of your paragraph, you're back to looking for me-specific things. Which again, there's nothing wrong with wanting that. But at the same time, if you don't get it... okay, you didn't get it. They didn't choose to go that route. Deal with it?
Like, no, I agree with you, in a fantasy-land, you would have all kinds of nice niche features that fully show off the capabilities of every possible kind of platform. Like, man, I can have it all gussied up to work just swell on Windows 3.11, and you can have it work just perfectly for the Macintosh II, and my friend has it running nice on his Commodore 64, Billy has it running on his iPhone, Joe has it on his Android phone, Bob has it going on his windows 8 device, Cindy Lou Who can play it on her candy-canes, whatever. That would be sweet, there's no denying. But it's also unfeasible. So, I guess what it comes down to is, you accept they can't make it perfect for everything, why do you think they should, from *their* perspective, put the effort in to make it perfect for your platform? Because it seems to me, making it just good everywhere and perfect nowhere would be a reasonable thing (or maybe it's impossible to design something that way, and we are seeing that by this spectacular failure; but at least you could see the motivation anyway). And then really, where is the motivation to tailor it for ANY specific kind of platform, because you as a customer are going to be pretty upset if they charge you extra for that platform customisation, but really, it's not like that is free.

Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.


*hey company that wants to hire me to write a platform for you after sending me through a couple years of schooling - I will take that offer ;)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Captain_Frisk on August 17, 2012, 11:22:09 pm
@WW: Regarding Offline Mode - I think that most of us agree - offline mode is not particularly useful.

Quote
Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.

But you know what?  Le Havre is another one of my favorite games.  I have it on my ipad.  I play it offline.  When I wasn't schooling Yuma in Mafia V from the back of a bus on my iphone, I was playing Le Havre against 2 AIs.  It wasn't online because i don't have the fancy 3g ipad (mainly because I think that double paying for 2 data streams when I can only use 1 is a crock of shit)

It's not a very good AI.  I have never lost - regardless of difficulty.  However - it does let me have the joy of building my little le havre engine - and the stress of figuring out how to maximize my VP and get rid of all my loans by the end of the game.  I can play at my own pace.  Maybe I get in a few turns before bed.  Maybe I play a turn and then the baby wakes up.

I'm a little afraid of playing the game online.  People might want me to go faster than I'm comfortable.  I might not be very good at it relative to people who study it all the time.  I don't want to jump into a game and get my ass reamed.  The offline AI gives me that nice pleasant diversion of playing Le Havre without it being a stressful competitive experience.

I suspect that Adventure mode in dominion will serve that same niche.  How about all those solo challenge guys?  Those are pretty fun.

There are plenty of places where you don't have connectivity, but that you might want to play dominion.  Subways, trains, airplanes, the back seat of the family mini van.

The release of goko will remove all competing versions of the platform away - but doesn't actually meet the requirements of all of the users of the previous platforms.  Granted - those people can still use those apps because they won't get deleted - but what about someone who didn't get there in time?

Whether or not you feel that these people are feeling entitled due to the DXV / RGG generosity issue - I can see how they would feel a little let down - especially after all the leadup about official apps etc. - only to find that the official version is late, buggy, and doesn't work where you want it to when so many other successful applications have been released that do.

You don't want offline mode.  You're a top 100 player who finds no challenge in the bots.

Someone who's a little more casual and interested interested in the campaign mode might have a legitimate desire for it.  Surely you can see that?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 17, 2012, 11:43:19 pm
I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: sherwinpr on August 17, 2012, 11:56:51 pm
I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.

Offline mode would be nice for when one is a frequent traveler, especially on flights that don't offer wi-fi (or charge a lot for it).  I think I'd play quite a bit in these situations.  It's also fun to build engines and think about the game without worrying about what your opponent is doing too much (although admittedly, that's a pretty substantial element of playing Dominion well).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 18, 2012, 12:11:18 am
It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 18, 2012, 12:30:44 am
I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
I've enjoyed playtesting the cards and AI. The bots are very bad at certain things, but it's not always one of those games, and of course they'll get better at some of that stuff. And sometimes they just get lucky, but maybe you can beat them by playing well. Lately I've played a mix of Desktop Dungeons and goko Dominion as my go-to waste-a-few-minutes games.

So, sure, games vs. bots have value, is what I think. So then the question is, how much of the time are the people who enjoy those games actually not online. I have no clue; I personally am never in a situation where I could play a computer game but am not online, but I'm probably not a great example.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 18, 2012, 12:34:24 am
It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.
I have a little more information here: the beta is open to everyone, which is to say they will just add people as fast as they can rather than limiting it in any way; and the beta will be segmented, that is, there will be "shards" with a certain number of people. They really did have a problem dealing with the load, and this is their temporary fix.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Dsell on August 18, 2012, 12:34:41 am
It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.

I wonder if I can re-sign up for the beta...for whatever reason they never accepted me before.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 18, 2012, 12:44:20 am
It's official, on Goko's Twitter, this is going back to beta-testing mode, and you can sign up to be on the beta test, if you haven't already. No new release date announced.

I wonder if I can re-sign up for the beta...for whatever reason they never accepted me before.

On Twitter, they do encourage you to sign up for the beta. So, I guess go ahead and try again.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ^_^_^_^ on August 18, 2012, 12:54:52 am
I'm a 30-ish player on iso (or at least I was), and I've spent countless hours playing against bots now.

It's fun! Maybe you don't find it fun, but I do. It's not a "challenge", but it is fun, for me. I don't need offline mode because I only play on my computer, but I can see why people would want it.
I've enjoyed playtesting the cards and AI. The bots are very bad at certain things, but it's not always one of those games, and of course they'll get better at some of that stuff. And sometimes they just get lucky, but maybe you can beat them by playing well. Lately I've played a mix of Desktop Dungeons and goko Dominion as my go-to waste-a-few-minutes games.

So, sure, games vs. bots have value, is what I think. So then the question is, how much of the time are the people who enjoy those games actually not online. I have no clue; I personally am never in a situation where I could play a computer game but am not online, but I'm probably not a great example.

I personally have lots of time where I can't  get an online game and rather opt for a computer v human desktop game due to either
1)Internet provider fails :/
2)Browser fails
3)Server fails
4)Customer Service for above fails
5) Failure
6)Epic Failure
7)Why was there a space at 5) Failure
8)Have to turn off power for electrical work in my old house, take breaks while being too lazy to do anything else by playing computer games on laptop without power.
9)Got annoyed by people online, forget them, I have computers and they are nice, cute, and CRASH!!! Server down?!? FML!!!
10)I love my computers, they are cute, cuddly, and they never crash or make me curse or even make me quit! It's so much fun losing and winning versus computers because they aren't mean to me at all! And they even let me go get a bag of chips, eat some of them, come back, think, and eat some more, and then finish my turn! :D
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 18, 2012, 09:04:34 am
@WW: Regarding Offline Mode - I think that most of us agree - offline mode is not particularly useful.

Quote
Well, okay, I also don't understand why you'd WANT offline mode; playing those bots gets so boring, so fast.

But you know what?  Le Havre is another one of my favorite games.  I have it on my ipad.  I play it offline.  When I wasn't schooling Yuma in Mafia V from the back of a bus on my iphone, I was playing Le Havre against 2 AIs.  It wasn't online because i don't have the fancy 3g ipad (mainly because I think that double paying for 2 data streams when I can only use 1 is a crock of shit)

It's not a very good AI.  I have never lost - regardless of difficulty.  However - it does let me have the joy of building my little le havre engine - and the stress of figuring out how to maximize my VP and get rid of all my loans by the end of the game.  I can play at my own pace.  Maybe I get in a few turns before bed.  Maybe I play a turn and then the baby wakes up.

I'm a little afraid of playing the game online.  People might want me to go faster than I'm comfortable.  I might not be very good at it relative to people who study it all the time.  I don't want to jump into a game and get my ass reamed.  The offline AI gives me that nice pleasant diversion of playing Le Havre without it being a stressful competitive experience.

I suspect that Adventure mode in dominion will serve that same niche.  How about all those solo challenge guys?  Those are pretty fun.

There are plenty of places where you don't have connectivity, but that you might want to play dominion.  Subways, trains, airplanes, the back seat of the family mini van.

The release of goko will remove all competing versions of the platform away - but doesn't actually meet the requirements of all of the users of the previous platforms.  Granted - those people can still use those apps because they won't get deleted - but what about someone who didn't get there in time?

Whether or not you feel that these people are feeling entitled due to the DXV / RGG generosity issue - I can see how they would feel a little let down - especially after all the leadup about official apps etc. - only to find that the official version is late, buggy, and doesn't work where you want it to when so many other successful applications have been released that do.

You don't want offline mode.  You're a top 100 player who finds no challenge in the bots.

Someone who's a little more casual and interested interested in the campaign mode might have a legitimate desire for it.  Surely you can see that?
I should have been more clear: I don't understand why you want to do that stuff, because it's really boring to me (and I have also spent several hours crushing those bots), but I understand that there are people who enjoy that, and ok, that's fine, whatever. If you guy like it, good for you.
That was intended to be more of a throwaway line than an argument.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Tmwinand on August 20, 2012, 12:56:37 pm
I don't get why Goko is having such trouble!  Days of Wonder has Ticket to Ride available for Macs, PCs, and iOS devices, all playing against each other.  I think they even have a browser version!  I'm really excited for online Dominion, but really!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Schneau on August 24, 2012, 02:41:23 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 24, 2012, 04:29:23 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: DG on August 24, 2012, 04:37:52 pm
Quote
I don't get why Goko is having such trouble!  Days of Wonder has Ticket to Ride available for Macs, PCs, and iOS devices, all playing against each other.

Ticket to Ride is really simple. Dominion is really very complex compared to most board game implementations, such as the games available on Yucata. The user interface has to display a lot of information at high speed to support multiple decisions about hands (or trash piles) of very variable size. Isotropic really is an excellent service.

Kingdom Builder would be about as difficult to produce online as Ticket to Ride.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 24, 2012, 04:57:01 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

lol @ equivocation.
another victim of the "I'm always right" f.DS curse.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 24, 2012, 05:18:41 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

lol @ equivocation.
another victim of the "I'm always right" f.DS curse.

No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: ftl on August 24, 2012, 05:27:30 pm
And yet, it's past Gencon, the thing is not publicly available and is in beta, and will remain so for the near future, thankfully. 
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on August 24, 2012, 05:49:34 pm
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

This is an interesting assertion.  Is a rocket that explodes on the launchpad still considered a launch? 

I've tried to reference it as a "failed launch attempt"
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: eHalcyon on August 24, 2012, 05:59:10 pm
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

This is an interesting assertion.  Is a rocket that explodes on the launchpad still considered a launch? 

I've tried to reference it as a "failed launch attempt"

Hm, you may also be technically correct about that.  But now we're arguing semantics... the best kind of arguing?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on August 24, 2012, 05:59:52 pm
Hm, you may also be technically correct about that.  But now we're arguing semantics... the best kind of arguing?

On the internet?  Without a doubt. :)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Kirian on August 24, 2012, 06:00:31 pm
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.

Also, it's technically still in private beta, rather than public beta.  So technically correct on both counts!
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: blueblimp on August 24, 2012, 06:01:25 pm
It's a safe bet it will be launched by 8/22, anyway.
I, on the other hand, was so so wrong on this.  :-[
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Cave-o-sapien on August 24, 2012, 06:03:26 pm
It's a safe bet it will be launched by 8/22, anyway.
I, on the other hand, was so so wrong on this.  :-[

If you were wrong about that, what else have you been wrong about?  Clearly you have zero credibility and we should throw out anything you've ever said!

(Sorry, influence of presidential election year politics bleeding through)
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: polonkus on August 24, 2012, 08:07:11 pm
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.

Also, it's technically still in private beta, rather than public beta.  So technically correct on both counts!

And of course there's that pesky second clause, about iso staying up until it's ready...
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Donald X. on August 24, 2012, 08:16:50 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

lol @ equivocation.
another victim of the "I'm always right" f.DS curse.
I see, I see.

In fact I was asked if I thought the launch might fail and did not give it a nonzero chance, since, what, failed launches are not so rare. When rspeer suggested that Goko should delay the launch though, for sure I knew that wasn't happening. Is that not clear from those words? Are you a native English speaker?
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: michaeljb on August 24, 2012, 08:17:27 pm
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

DXV is technically correct -- the best kind of correct.

Also, it's technically still in private beta, rather than public beta.  So technically correct on both counts!

And of course there's that pesky second clause, about iso staying up until it's ready...

Consider (A & B)

A is false

Therefore (A & B) is false, whether or not B is true.
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: Schneau on August 24, 2012, 08:19:34 pm
There's still time to label the GenCon release as a public beta and keep Iso up until it's ready.
You are not going to like the over/under on this one!

I really wish I had taken this bet if the odds were that good! I have rarely seen Donald X. be so wrong.
What? There was zero chance they were going to not launch and instead have a public beta at GenCon. And they didn't! They did take down the launch version and go back to beta, but whatever. Your hope that they would not launch was dashed.

All I'm saying is that it's still in beta and Isotropic is up until it's ready - that's all I care about!

EDIT And by the way, I didn't mean to spark a debate about truthiness - just saying that the main ideas that I care about you were wrong about (namely Iso).
Title: Re: Official Version Launching 8/16?
Post by: rspeer on August 25, 2012, 06:11:13 am
No, a failed launch is still a launch.

This is an interesting assertion.  Is a rocket that explodes on the launchpad still considered a launch? 

I've tried to reference it as a "failed launch attempt"

Video of the Goko launch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaBkCDtt-7o#t=1m26s)