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Archive => Archive => Dominion: Dark Ages Previews => Topic started by: theory on August 06, 2012, 09:06:52 am

Title: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: theory on August 06, 2012, 09:06:52 am
This is the first of several previews by Donald X. Vaccarino, introducing the next Dominion expansion: Dark Ages.

(http://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/dapreview1.png?w=640&h=326)

There comes a time in every man’s life when he must preview Dark Ages cards. On second thought maybe that’s not as universal as I was thinking. Anyway, metaphorically, there comes a time etc. And that time for me is now. Actually it was a few minutes ago, when you were reading the cards. I figured I’d just let you keep reading though. Have your fun. I can wait. Okay then.

Dark Ages has several themes and mini-themes. It’s a big sprawling expansion. I am previewing three cards a day, that’s how big it is. It’s also the crazy combo expansion, and today’s cards demonstrate that without even trying.

Graverobber is the way to get things from the trash that you always knew I’d make eventually. What you didn’t know is that it would look like that. If you’re gonna take things from the trash, you have to make sure there are good things to get. Graverobber does this by rewarding you for trashing expensive actions – just the kind of thing you’ll want back later. And when you do take a card from the trash, it puts it on your deck, so you’ll draw it before the game is over. Of course if someone else has Graverobbers, maybe they’ll get that card first. It’s a competitive business in these troubled times.

Poor House says, build a deck with no money. Also a Village, no money and a Village. If you can’t trash your money, at least discard it somehow. And it costs $1. Why even have a card that costs $1 – aren’t you usually going to be paying at least $2 for it? Well sure, but you know. Not always. Anyway it’s cool to have a card that costs $1, I don’t know what to tell you.

There’s a tendency to want to show off the most exotic cards, but I don’t want people to think the set will just be non-stop confusion. So I’m also showing off a simpler card, Sage. Dig for a card costing $3 or more, that’s all there is to it. It will turn into something good for a while; then eventually it will start reminding you about those Provinces you bought. And of course sometimes a Sage just wants you to talk to another Sage.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ashersky on August 06, 2012, 09:12:00 am
Graverobber a Graverobber for a Province, then graverob it out of the trash.  Repeat.

Could you do conceivable do that all in a hand with KC or TR?  These look fun!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: philosophyguy on August 06, 2012, 09:14:03 am
Well, Poor House creates an interesting nombo with Upgrade—not only can you not trash your starting Coppers, but your deck would gain a terminal money that is worse for you having Coppers left.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Kuildeous on August 06, 2012, 09:15:19 am
OMG! A 1-cost card.

Yeah, that's what I took from it. Will examine in greater depth later.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tdog on August 06, 2012, 09:16:17 am
Well, Poor House creates an interesting nombo with Upgrade—not only can you not trash your starting Coppers, but your deck would gain a terminal money that is worse for you having Coppers left.
Or is it a combo- trash all your coppers, making every poor house worth 4?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tdog on August 06, 2012, 09:17:24 am
Grave robber is a great name- you "rob" the graves, or the cards that's are dead in the trash.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 09:18:18 am
I had a feeling we’d see a $1 card if ONLY to change up Upgrade and Remake.

But I’ve been pretty vocal about expecting we’d never have a “gain from Trash” card (although I’ve added the caveat that if we did, it would also trash good stuff), so I have to eat some humble pie over that one.

Sweet cards!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: wrathofmine on August 06, 2012, 09:19:56 am
Well, Poor House creates an interesting nombo with Upgrade—not only can you not trash your starting Coppers, but your deck would gain a terminal money that is worse for you having Coppers left.
Or is it a combo- trash all your coppers, making every poor house worth 4?

I cannot wait to see it with Remake: more Poor Houses or a Silver from estate to make your Poor House less valuable ?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tmwinand on August 06, 2012, 09:20:50 am
I'm excited for Poor House/ Black Market!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:23:04 am
I'm excited for Poor House/ Black Market!

*drool*
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 09:27:07 am
Highway/Sage: reshuffle your deck every play! 

Graverobber seems amazing to me at first glance, but I suppose having to trash big cards makes it less viable unless there are options like Apprentice/Salvager/maybe more Dark Ages cards. 
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 06, 2012, 09:28:04 am
OMG! A 1-cost card.

Yeah, that's what I took from it. Will examine in greater depth later.
Almost my reaction to seeing this, but my reaction was more like.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAWYWTRYTWR@#*(&$@$&))(@#$**@#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CUTE UPGRADE TRICKS ARE DEAD!!@!@(*@

Sorry for the caps and foul language, but man o man, I never thought a 1-cost would actually make it!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 09:29:48 am
Poor House/Villlage/Chapel.  Think about it.  Finally, the Village Idiot has a new favorite support card.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:30:48 am
I'm excited for Poor House/ Black Market!

*drool*

Or Poor House/Tactician. or rather Poor House/Tactician/(Moneylender/SpiceMerchant/Chapel)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Saucery on August 06, 2012, 09:32:26 am
You could potentially remake coppers into poor houses and estates into villages if they're there (and then, Cities because poor houses would go quick). Then there's the combo with discarding effects and attacks; 2 poor houses and a village is a province provided you don't draw a copper.

Graverobber could lead to some nice two step combos like adventurer->platinum, or a way to exit out of sea hag/spice merchant, but the most apparent strategy seems to be turning graverobbers/peddlers into provinces/colonies.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:33:27 am
Oasis, Warehouse, Hamlet = all good friends to the Poor House

Counting House and Poor House = not friends
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on August 06, 2012, 09:34:01 am
Almost my reaction to seeing this, but my reaction was more like.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAWYWTRYTWR@#*(&$@$&))(@#$**@#!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CUTE UPGRADE TRICKS ARE DEAD!!@!@(*@

Sorry for the caps and foul language, but man o man, I never thought a 1-cost would actually make it!
Only on the some-small-percent of boards this card shows up on. ._.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 06, 2012, 09:36:06 am
Cross post:

Poor House
Combos with: Vault/Secret Chamber and Black Market
Decent in cursing games or against discard attacks
But I think this is good with heavy trashing in a non-money engine
Good to pile out
Of course it's no power card, it only costs $1
Mint/Poor House could even be a good opening.
Beware of Upgrade, Remake when this is in the supply.

Sage
In the beginning this is great for getting your $4 in hand on turn 3. Sage/Sea Hag for example even if your oponent flipped your Sea Hag.
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

Grave Robber
Very hard to evaluate. But it seems weak at first glance.
It's trashing is pretty powerful, like an Expand, but limited to Action cards. So it's no good opener.
It combos with itself to get a Province.
It might be good with against Trash-for-Benefit card decks like Salvager, Apprentice or Bishop.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pingpongsam on August 06, 2012, 09:37:31 am
Sage appears to be a pretty balanced cantrip for $3.  It is reminiscient of Farming Village minus the extra action but skips the coppers (and the courtyards, pearl divers, etc.). It's utulity will greatly diminsh as VP cards get aded to the deck. So far, this is the easiest one to et my head around.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:38:55 am
Oasis, Warehouse, Hamlet = all good friends to the Poor House

Counting House and Poor House = not friends

I was expecting a card to make Counting House better.  This made Counting House worse.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Saucery on August 06, 2012, 09:39:18 am
Sage appears to be a very good companion to Counting House
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:40:27 am
Sage is another card that encourages late greening.

Also opening sage/anything is sort of like opening double that thing.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 09:40:33 am
Kc/Poor House: possibly very powerful.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:41:44 am
Of course it's no power card, it only costs $1

Cost has nothing to do with it.  Chapel is a power card.  The main thing about cost is how available you want it to be.  Lighthouse is an awesome card, but it needs to be readily available.  Tunnels are better when spammed, so they need to cost $3.  So Poor House could totally be a power card.  Think of Fool's Gold!  Poor House, once you've gotten rid of all your Treasures, is essentially a Fool's Gold that's always activated and can be TR/KC'd.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 09:42:24 am
Another element of Graverobber I hadn't quite considered:  Yeah, it seems weak, but if your opponent is also going for it, you can steal his trashed cards before he can graverob them himself.  Will have to actually play with this one to really evaluate it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 09:42:52 am
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tejayes on August 06, 2012, 09:45:24 am
Counting House and Poor House = not friends

Reminds me of "A Christmas Carol." Scrooge always puts his Counting House first, thinking little to nothing of the Poor House because he believes it would only hurt his riches. By the end, he puts the Poor House first, but he still has his Counting House, which when combined makes him richer than he's ever been.

The only remaining question is, when is Dominion getting its poorly-produced elementary school play?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: mborda on August 06, 2012, 09:46:10 am
I can´t see the images here at work!!!
Someone can please write down the cards text PLEASE!!!
Thanks!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 09:46:35 am
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?

1. Get hit with Ghost Ship
2. Put Coppers or Estates on deck
3. Play Sage
4. ? ? ?
5. Profit
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:46:42 am
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?

Say you have two Markets, two Estates, and a Sage in your hand.  Opponent plays Ghost Ship.  Put the Estates on your deck.  When it's your turn, play Sage.  :)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Glooble on August 06, 2012, 09:46:50 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one can always buy a Garden.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:47:28 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 09:48:18 am
TR/Graverobber looks fun. Gain a Province or whatever and immediately get your original card back, topdecking it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:49:42 am
I can´t see the images here at work!!!
Someone can please write down the cards text PLEASE!!!
Thanks!

Graverobber
Action - $5

Choose one: Gain a card from the trash costing from $3 to $6, putting it on top of your deck; or trash an Action card from your hand and gain a card costing up to $3 more than it.


---

Poor House
Action - $1

+$4

Reveal your hand.  -$1 per Treasure card in your hand, to a minimum of $0.

---

Sage
Action - $3

+1 Action

Reveal cards from the top of your deck until you reveal one costing $3 or more.  Put that card into your hand and discard the rest.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: theory on August 06, 2012, 09:49:51 am
Sage pairs with early hard-hitting attacks in a very similar way that Scheme does.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Glooble on August 06, 2012, 09:49:57 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP

No. If you reveal 2 coppers, your poor house is only worth 2 - but you still have the two coppers. It doesn't say discard them.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 09:50:14 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP

Nope. Each Copper in hand makes Poor House 1 coin worse, but adds one coin. Except for exotic treasures like HoP and Bank, you will always have $4 in your hand if you have a Poor House.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Glooble on August 06, 2012, 09:50:43 am
If you reveal two silvers, your total money is six.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on August 06, 2012, 09:50:49 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP

Untrue -- Poor House/C/C/C/E Still buys a Gardens just fine.


Also, everyone talking about gaining Provinces back from the trash with Graverobber might be benefitted from rereading the card.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:51:17 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP

No. If you reveal 2 coppers, your poor house is only worth 2 - but you still have the two coppers. It doesn't say discard them.
Ooh, that does make it suck less. But for the sake of argument, you could have a Potion in hand
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:52:00 am
Poor House + Gold + Gold = Province
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 09:52:09 am
Poor House could be nice with Gardens. Cost makes it easy to pick up with one buy, and a hand with one and no money can always buy a Garden.

FYP

Untrue -- Poor House/C/C/C/E Still buys a Gardens just fine.

Oh no, two Bureaucrats correcting each other!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 09:53:12 am
Copied from the prediction game thread:

Well then!

Graverobber: The fact that Graverobber only trashes Actions for benefit is, I think, going to be its big limitation.  That means you need an Action-heavy deck for it to be worthwhile, and since you generally don't like getting rid of your hard-bought Actions, it'll be tough even then.  Chaining Graverobbers up to Province just has to be slow and not actually worth it, like trying to build a Remodel deck.  It looks to me like it needs other trashing actions to be useful most of the time- either early-game trashers you can trash for benefit (something like Steward is going to be good here, since you don't mind getting it back), or the canonical TFBs Salvager/Apprentice which like to trash good cards to begin with.  And I'm sure there are Dark Ages-specific combos with cards we haven't seen yet.  But my preliminary thought is that this is not a card I am going to buy that often.

Poor House: Holy Zounds!  A $1 card!  That gives you $4!   Obviously super situational, but also pretty damn super when you can make it work.  I'm generally skeptical about terminal treasure as a class of card (see the discussion about Merchant Ship and Harvest), but this has the potential to be such an incredible value.  Obviously the havoc it wreaks with Upgrade/Remake is important to note- I'm inclined to think it just straightforwardly makes those two cards bad 99% of the time* when both are in the kingdom, and needs to be comboed with Villages and non-gaining trashers for full effect.  I am going to have fun trying to make Poor House decks trying to work if these cards ever become available in an online implementation.

*Or, at least, bad openers.  It probably hurts Remake a lot more.

I am going to go ahead and say that Poor House is, at least for now, the best $1 card in the game bar none.

Sage: This card strikes me as something you do not want to buy in games where you also buy lots of Silver.  If you have a couple top-tier Actions you want to play as much as possible, and lots of other dreck- Curse games perhaps, then Sage will be a great digger.  If it just gets you Silver and stuff, okay maybe that's worth it in curse-filled slogs except why don't you just buy more Silver to begin with?  And if you have lots of trashing and not much dreck, it's likely to be just a cantrip.  I can see myself buying this more than Graverobber, but probably not all that often- again, unless Dark Ages leads to plenty of the sorts of games where Sage is likely to be best.

Oh, huh.  Sage feels a little bit like a half-Golem to me.  I could almost see a Sage/Counting House deck working.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 09:56:07 am
You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:57:16 am
Sage/Counting House has one huge advantage over Golem/Counting House in that Sage is much easier to acquire quickly.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 09:58:30 am
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?

Say you have two Markets, two Estates, and a Sage in your hand.  Opponent plays Ghost Ship.  Put the Estates on your deck.  When it's your turn, play Sage.  :)

Ok, so it turns a Ghost Ship into a Militia instead.  The attack still hurts (well, not in that example), but the effect is muted.  Cool.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 09:59:11 am
You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.

Like Sage/Highway/lots of tunnels? If you set it up just right it might work, but only once. Once you get those Golds in your deck that trick gets a lot less effective.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tdog on August 06, 2012, 09:59:43 am
You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.
But it's hard to get it to work well with tunnel, as there is only 2 cards in the game that will hel you do that.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 10:02:38 am
You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.
But it's hard to get it to work well with tunnel, as there is only 2 cards in the game that will hel you do that.

Three.  Little 'ol Princess.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 10:02:54 am
Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DWetzel on August 06, 2012, 10:03:43 am
There's got to be some bizarre Graverobber combo involving Duchy/Duchess/Watchtower, but I can't quite wrap my mind around it yet.  Something like trash Duchess, gain Duchy, gain Duchess, put Duchess on deck with Watchtower, draw Duchess somehow, trash another Duchess, gain Duchy... gain Duchess...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Saucery on August 06, 2012, 10:11:20 am
I wouldn't be surprised if remodel decks became viable with these types of cards.

(hm, just noticed that mining village will consistently give you something worthwhile to graverob)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: GendoIkari on August 06, 2012, 10:11:25 am
Later this seems pretty weak. I think this filter mechanic is better in cursing games and it counters Ghost Ship.

With you on all of your observations, but I don't get this one.  Sage still consumes a card slot, so if you keep Sage just to redraw something you put back, well, you might as well have kept the something else and put the Sage back for all the difference it makes.  If you had a Sage but NOT your desired target, you could have drawn it with Sage equally as well regardless of whether you'd been Ghost Shipped or not.  What am I missing?

Say you have two Markets, two Estates, and a Sage in your hand.  Opponent plays Ghost Ship.  Put the Estates on your deck.  When it's your turn, play Sage.  :)

Ok, so it turns a Ghost Ship into a Militia instead.  The attack still hurts (well, not in that example), but the effect is muted.  Cool.

Worth noting that this is similar to Farming Village, Golem, Loan, Venture, and Adventurer. They are all soft-counters to Ghost Ship, so long as you have VP or Curses to put back on your deck.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pingpongsam on August 06, 2012, 10:13:16 am
You know what?  I think Sage is an attempt to fix Chancellor (sort of like how Noble Brigand "fixes" Thief).  It discards, so it does well with Tunnel (if you get costs down), and it gives +1 Action.

Tunnel is a $3 card so it would just be drawin into hand, not discarded.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 10:17:23 am
I wouldn't be surprised if remodel decks became viable with these types of cards.

(hm, just noticed that mining village will consistently give you something worthwhile to graverob)

Infinite Mining Villages!  Infinite Feasts.  I think the "from $3 to $6" clause is to prevent infinite Embargoes.  Unless Dark Ages has a card that increases costs...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 10:17:35 am
Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.

I think I may have oversold the extent to which Poor House breaks Upgrade/Remake.  Obviously it does break them as early-game deck thinners, but I could see Upgrade being a great way to gain Poor Houses if the kingdom is otherwise right for it.  And since a 5-card Poor House hand is going to give you at least $4 no matter what (thanks for the reminders of that), I bet Poor House's downside is low enough that the kingdom is often going to be right for it.

Poor House definitely looks like the best of these three cards.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:18:51 am
Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Willvon on August 06, 2012, 10:22:46 am
It is so great to finally start seeing some cards from this expansion.  I was sure that we would see something about Shelters or Ruins first thing today, but instead we get 3 other cards, two of which defy boundaries that many have stated in discussions here would not be broken or could/should not be done, namely:

1) We have a card that allows you to dig through the trash pile and take what you want (within limits). Of course, we have always had Thief, which lets you take a card someone trashed, but it doesn't let you get a different card someone placed there earlier. So this is a big change. And though I would agree that you don't want to be trashing a lot of good 5's, when Witch and Mountebank and Torturer have run their course and can no longer hand out Curses, I can now trash them and gain that Province you put in the trash to try to speed up the game ending. With Graverobber in the game, you now have to think twice about trashing Provinces.

2) We finally have a card costing 1, something that people have said numerous times will never happen. So now you can't Upgrade those Coppers to nothing anymore, unless of course you enjoy being in the Poor House.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DWetzel on August 06, 2012, 10:23:45 am
Oh, and your new golden, er, well, we'll have to come up with a name for it:

Crossroads/Poor House/Poor House/Bishop/Province.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 10:24:47 am
Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.

Sure, I could definitely see that being a good combo. But, that's not the point I was making. I was just saying that their restrictions make parts of them not interact with relatively strong cards that cost $2P.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ChocophileBenj on August 06, 2012, 10:26:28 am
About the myth of the "card costing $1" : Why not, but WHY ON EARTH should the card give $4, like Fool's Gold did ?!?!?

And meanwhile :
Apprentice : "I'm done ! It's you to act !" Graveyard : "Thanks !"
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 10:28:31 am
Not to let my blind adoration of Donald X. get the better of me, but DA has been in development forever and Graverobber looks like one of its defining cards. Until I see it in action I find it really hard to believe it will be total crap.

Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.
I can imagine a situation where your deck is stuffed full of PHs and you use Sage to help find your villages.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Glooble on August 06, 2012, 10:30:47 am
Not to let my blind adoration of Donald X. get the better of me, but DA has been in development forever and Graverobber looks like one of its defining cards. Until I see it in action I find it really hard to believe it will be total crap.

Sage/Poor House is hilariously nombo-tastic.  Sage in general will obviously be made worse by good $2 (and $1!) cards.
I can imagine a situation where your deck is stuffed full of PHs and you use Sage to help find your villages.

That's not a bad plan...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 10:35:00 am
Waking up to all new dominion cards is like Christmas. But I guess we get a bunch of days of this so more like Hanukkah then?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 10:37:49 am
Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:38:41 am
Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

Poor House can net you negative coins. Option 2 is correct. Donald has confirmed it at BGG.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shraeye on August 06, 2012, 10:39:24 am
Graverobber: A really cool sounding card that only is good in multiples with extra actions, and is only great with expensive +2 Action cards.  Will be loved by newbies, avoided by intermediates, and used only sparingly by experts.  An expand with option to gain a card from the trash instead, AND it only costs 5?!? Yes please! But wait just a minute, the expand only works with actions.  And with Graverobber on the board, other people will have the means to resurrect many of the actions that you 'Expand'.  Maybe this will be stronger if it's in the Black Market deck and you have the only one, but then you also need a trasher card that will be used on desirable cards from 3-6.  When I think about trashes I've seen after playing (IRL only do I notice the trash, since I am usually the one to sort it) there aren't normally good cards there unless apprentice is on the board, or there were a few late-game remodels of gold to province.  If someone is turning gold to provinces, the game is too close to ending for me to bother nabbing the gold from the trash.  And if there's apprentice on the board, I'd probably buy it over Graverobber with every 5 I have.  So this looks terrible, but what if I have a lot of this terrible card?  With plenty of plus actions, I can use this to gain something really expensive for free.  Play Graverobber to turn my Bazaar into a Province, then play a Graverobber to get the Bazaar back before my opponent has a chance to grab it.  This works great with City, Bazaar, Festival, Inn, Nobles (any expensive card that gives +2 actions).  Especially Nobles, since they give enough +cards that you will have more than one Graverobber.  Actually, having 2 Graverobbers and a +2 actions in hand is asking a lot without plenty of +cards, and if you're trying to buy +cards, +actions, and multiple Graverobbers, that seems like a tough combo to pull off.

Some other ideas people have reminded me of.  This card could be an unavoidable card in that if my opponent buys some, I have to also buy some or risk him getting easy free cards as his actions sit unclaimed in the trash.  There are a few cards like Feast and Mining Village that would be great.  I can see opening Feast and then gaining a Graverobber from the feast, hoping to reuse that feast many, many more times.  I think this will make Feast/something a worthwhile opening over Silver/Silver.  I am also excited to see if this works well with University.

Dude, Graverobber/University has the potential to be massive. Gain a bunch of $5 Actions with University and then Graverob them into Provinces. University even lets you gain AND play Graverobbers very quickly. I'll bet that's a combo worth trying.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Saucery on August 06, 2012, 10:40:00 am
I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DStu on August 06, 2012, 10:41:37 am
What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

I would say it is absolutely obvious that it means that Poor Houses's minimum is $0, but as rinkworks asks this question, I should read again...
...
...
Ok, now I think it's equally obvious that it is "total coins spend so far".
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:42:16 am
I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA

Hmm, lose a Silver, gain a Poor House? Probably a bad example, but it's fun to consider the new possibilities.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 10:43:05 am
OK here are my thoughts on the cards:

Graverobber: It's strength is highly dependent on other trashers. Unless there's a way to easily gain action cards, or trash for benefit, likely this card won't see much play. But since Dark Ages is the trashing theme, I expect the utility of Graverobber will only increase as we get more cards.

Poor House: I knew we'd get a $1 card sooner or later. It's a fun design space to explore. This card though, has the potential to get silly. But i expect it won't be worth it on most boards. This card screams engine (well its not working in big money), but more card draw means more potential treasures. So again, you need heavy trashing. But when you get it, look out. $4 terminal action is just crazy.

Sage: Somewhat vanilla, but yeah. I don't think I'd buy it very often. It just finds me other engine parts, but you know, I could just buy those engine parts. Likely it will be at it's best when you can use it to spam a powerful terminal, probably a mountebank or something. It does have a cute TR/KC interaction. You get to find 2 or 3 cards and you get the extra actions to play them.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tdog on August 06, 2012, 10:44:12 am
I predict that Saboteur will become a less awful possibly useful card due to DA
Or more awful? Because if you sabatour somebody's gold, they take a silver for it and then they get there hold back from graverobber. Then you jut gave them a free silver. But you could get the gold, so I don't know.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 10:45:23 am
1) We have a card that allows you to dig through the trash pile and take what you want (within limits). Of course, we have always had Thief, which lets you take a card someone trashed, but it doesn't let you get a different card someone placed there earlier. So this is a big change. And though I would agree that you don't want to be trashing a lot of good 5's, when Witch and Mountebank and Torturer have run their course and can no longer hand out Curses, I can now trash them and gain that Province you put in the trash to try to speed up the game ending. With Graverobber in the game, you now have to think twice about trashing Provinces.

Graverobber only lets you get cards up to $6, so you can't use it to poach Provinces from the trash.  The restrictions on Graverobber are actually pretty strict.  You can use it to trade in your past-its-useful-life Witch for a Province, though.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ehunt on August 06, 2012, 10:50:09 am
in the scenario lab + bazaar + poor house (revealing five coppers), it seems to me that the total amount of money at end of turn is 5. Before revealing poor house, you have 1 "abstract money." Poor house adds 4, then subtracts 1 per copper. Now you have 0. Then you get five money when you play the copper.


If it's lab + lab + bazaar + poor house (revealing six coppers), it seems that the total amount of money is 6. Poor house again adds 4 to your 1, reaching 5. It tries to take away 6, but it can't per the bottom of the card, so it only takes away 5. Then you get 6 money when you play the copper.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:50:20 am
So, here's a couple of thoughts about Graverobber.

First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

Second, it seems to lack accountability. If you choose the second option, but have no Action cards in hand, are you obligated to reveal your hand?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 10:52:14 am
So, here's a couple of thoughts about Graverobber.

First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

Second, it seems to lack accountability. If you choose the second option, but have no Action cards in hand, are you obligated to reveal your hand?

Somebody said the minimum of 3 is to prevent infinite Embargo shenanigans (although those are already possible with Possession and not exactly game-breaking).
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 06, 2012, 10:53:38 am
So, here's a couple of thoughts about Graverobber.

First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

Second, it seems to lack accountability. If you choose the second option, but have no Action cards in hand, are you obligated to reveal your hand?

For your first question, one reason I can think of is a way to defend against trashing attacks (Swindler, Saboteur, etc.). As for the accountability, why would you even play it if you do not have action cards in your hand?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Lekkit on August 06, 2012, 10:53:53 am
Yeah, the curses will eventually run out. And a pile with 10 Embargo Tokens is just as bad as a pile with 9001 Embargo Tokens. In a 2p game.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:54:50 am
For your first question, one reason I can think of is a way to defend against trashing attacks (Swindler, Saboteur, etc.).

I don't follow your logic.

Quote
As for the accountability, why would you even play it if you do not have action cards in your hand?

Golem.

EDIT: Also, someone on BGG mentioned Sage/Jack of all Trades as an opener. I think that may be the only $4 card that would make me open with Sage. But the Sage would quickly become mediocre with all the Silver. Hmmm...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Glooble on August 06, 2012, 10:56:30 am

First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.


Bet there's a 2 cost self-trasher in Dark Ages that would lead to a broken combo. Maybe one of those "upgradable" cards?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Lekkit on August 06, 2012, 10:56:45 am
Would you have to reveal your hand if you play a Throne Room without any other actions?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 10:58:20 am
Would you have to reveal your hand if you play a Throne Room without any other actions?

Well, Throne Room, Moneylender, and (IIRC) Mine also lack accountability. It's something Donald is aware of and would change if he could.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 06, 2012, 10:59:30 am
For your first question, one reason I can think of is a way to defend against trashing attacks (Swindler, Saboteur, etc.).

I don't follow your logic.


You can regain any action/treasure/victory cards lost when those cards are played against you? And as someone mentioned, it prevents spamming embargo or other cheap cards like fool's gold.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DStu on August 06, 2012, 11:00:10 am
EDIT: Also, someone on BGG mentioned Sage/Jack of all Trades as an opener. I think that may be the only $4 card that would make me open with Sage. But the Sage would quickly become mediocre with all the Silver. Hmmm...

Don't think it will be worse than Silver.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Drab Emordnilap on August 06, 2012, 11:00:51 am
First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

I would assume it's so that when you trash cards from your starting deck, you don't have to worry about them actually ending up in the trash pile. When I play IRL, we just set aside trashed coppers and estates to make setting up the next game easier.

That, or Ruins/Shelters do something silly when gained from the trash, and cost $2.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 11:01:57 am
You can regain any action/treasure/victory cards lost when those cards are played against you?

Sure, but this has nothing to do with the $3 minimum.

Quote
And as someone mentioned, it prevents spamming embargo or other cheap cards like fool's gold.

At the point that Fool's Gold is being trashed, you probably don't want it. And if you want an Embargo, it's not like it's difficult to purchase.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 11:04:36 am
EDIT: Also, someone on BGG mentioned Sage/Jack of all Trades as an opener. I think that may be the only $4 card that would make me open with Sage. But the Sage would quickly become mediocre with all the Silver. Hmmm...

I'd be most inclined to try Sage with the curse attacks (Hag, Young Witch, possibly Swindler).
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Kuildeous on August 06, 2012, 11:05:21 am
I could see Sage being a pretty good accelerant. Say you buy Sage and MacGuffin.

Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. Put deck in discard pile. Play MacGuffin. Shuffle MacGuffin back in deck for possible Turn 4. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin or your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. You get your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!

Of course, if MacGuffin has +Cards or other deck cycling, then it's not that simple, but I believe that someone else said it best when he said that it basically means you get two uses of your other card.

Not overly powerful, but it could help you get more use of your $4 buy.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 11:07:01 am
I'd be most inclined to try Sage with the curse attacks (Hag, Young Witch, possibly Swindler).

I suppose. But if they collide, you're not drawing anything with Sage. Sure, you cycle your deck, but it won't help you hit $5 any too quickly.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 11:07:37 am
First, why does it specify a minimum of $3 for the cards it fishes out of the trash? There's probably a good reason, but I can't think of one right now.

Maybe to foil this Duchy/Duchess trick (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3820.msg78041#msg78041)?  Ok, probably not, but that's all I got.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 06, 2012, 11:08:30 am
You can regain any action/treasure/victory cards lost when those cards are played against you?

Sure, but this has nothing to do with the $3 minimum.

Quote
And as someone mentioned, it prevents spamming embargo or other cheap cards like fool's gold.

At the point that Fool's Gold is being trashed, you probably don't want it. And if you want an Embargo, it's not like it's difficult to purchase.

Well then I'm stumped too. Maybe there's going to be another card in the set specifying cheaper cards that can be gained from trash.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 11:09:54 am
EDIT: Also, someone on BGG mentioned Sage/Jack of all Trades as an opener. I think that may be the only $4 card that would make me open with Sage. But the Sage would quickly become mediocre with all the Silver. Hmmm...

I'd be most inclined to try Sage with the curse attacks (Hag, Young Witch, possibly Swindler).

It'd go really nicely with Potion too.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 11:15:24 am
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 11:24:36 am
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Though at the time, I was thinking Graverobber would be able to hit $3P, but it can't as you say.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 11:25:30 am
I could see Sage being a pretty good accelerant. Say you buy Sage and MacGuffin.

Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. Put deck in discard pile. Play MacGuffin. Shuffle MacGuffin back in deck for possible Turn 4. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin or your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. You get your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!

Of course, if MacGuffin has +Cards or other deck cycling, then it's not that simple, but I believe that someone else said it best when he said that it basically means you get two uses of your other card.

Not overly powerful, but it could help you get more use of your $4 buy.

Next question:  One of the problems with a Mandarin opening is that it delays your ability to use your early buys.  Would a Mandarin/Sage opening mitigate this problem?  I suppose in some cases.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 11:26:30 am
I think Graverobber is going to be much more useful when combined with other Dark Ages cards we haven't seen yet, especially those that upgrade themselves (which I assume means they trash themselves in order to gain a card that's not in the Supply).
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 06, 2012, 11:26:43 am
Nobody mentioned this, I just thought of.
Buy Border Village, Gain Grave Robber.
Later: Play Border Village, Trash Border Village with Grave Robber, Gain Province, Play Grave Robber, Gain Border Village and put in top of your deck, gain Grave Robber.
That seems pretty nice.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 11:27:56 am
I could see Sage being a pretty good accelerant. Say you buy Sage and MacGuffin.

Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 3: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. Put deck in discard pile. Play MacGuffin. Shuffle MacGuffin back in deck for possible Turn 4. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage but not MacGuffin. You get MacGuffin or your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!
Scenario Turn 4: Draw Sage and MacGuffin. You get your Turn 3 buy in your hand. Yay!

Of course, if MacGuffin has +Cards or other deck cycling, then it's not that simple, but I believe that someone else said it best when he said that it basically means you get two uses of your other card.

Not overly powerful, but it could help you get more use of your $4 buy.

Next question:  One of the problems with a Mandarin opening is that it delays your ability to use your early buys.  Would a Mandarin/Sage opening mitigate this problem?  I suppose in some cases.

Sounds like a great use of a 5/3 opening...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 11:29:01 am
Next question:  One of the problems with a Mandarin opening is that it delays your ability to use your early buys.  Would a Mandarin/Sage opening mitigate this problem?  I suppose in some cases.

Sounds like a great use of a 5/3 opening...

I suppose you are "wasting" $2 of your 5/5/2 opening, if that's what you're getting at.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Willvon on August 06, 2012, 11:31:07 am
Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

Poor House can net you negative coins. Option 2 is correct. Donald has confirmed it at BGG.

On BGG, Jeff Wolfe (one of the Dominion playtesters) gave this example:
"(assume Council Room or something)
Play Market, you have 1 coin to spend
Play Market, you have 2 coins to spend
Play Poor House and reveal 5 Silver cards, you have 1 coin to spend
Play 5 Silvers, you have 11 coins to spend"
(End of Quote)

So it appears that Poor House only reduces the value of money you have gained from the previous action cards you played before Poor House.  Once you start playing your treasures, it does not affect their value.  And Donald X. gave a thumbs up to Jeff's example.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 11:40:11 am
But if you play all your money with Black Market first...?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 11:42:28 am
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.

Though at the time, I was thinking Graverobber would be able to hit $3P, but it can't as you say.

This was my first guess too but is it confirmed? We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before. I don't think it's quite out of the question to interpret it as shorthand for "Costing at least X and no more than Y, in coins."
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Dsell on August 06, 2012, 11:43:53 am
I think people aren't giving Graverobber enough credit. I'm sure it will get better with some combos from Dark Ages, but even still it's far from a bad card. I agree with others that mass graverobbers-->Province is probably not going to be fast enough, but I bet there is a lot of support for this card, with other TfB and in an engine where it can draw the card it just put on top. On that note I think it's probably best in engines and can be used like a gimped expand to gain more expensive engine parts from cheaper ones, and then with a couple big turns it can bring a bunch of those cheaper cards back on top of the deck. Like others have said it also encourages groupthink, and if one person picks one up, others probably will too, and if they do, it's better for everyone.

Sage has already been covered a whole bunch, and I like it a lot. I'd buy it.

Poor house is obviously great in the right situations, but I'm betting people are overestimating the number of situations in which it's great. I think that when the expansion comes out/PH appears on iso, people are all going to try to build a deck around it and realize that it's not as amazing as it looks. You get $4 from a $1 card, that's amazing! Now what? You have no money. But then after everyone gets over their buyer's remorse they'll probably learn how to slip it into lots of other deck types to maximize their profit and because of how potentially good it is and how easy it is to acquire, it'll be a popular card. It looks like a pretty high-skill card. I'm really excited to try it. :D
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Cuzz on August 06, 2012, 11:44:44 am
I have a feeling (partly based on reading some posts so far) that Graverobber is going to cause some rules confusion at the beginning before people get really used to it. The first clause gains from the trash, has the $3 to $6 cost condition, the topdecking benefit, but no card type condition. The second clause gains from the supply, has the action card condition, but no cost condition (other than the $3 or less upgrade), and no topdecking benefit.

It'll be interesting to see how easy it is to keep this straight, since I think I've seen a few people claim that you can't gain a province since they cost more than $6, or that you can't gain a province unless someone else has trashed one.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Robz888 on August 06, 2012, 11:45:07 am
Ah, Poor House! Wreaking havoc on Remake, Upgrade, and even Develop (!) in one fell swoop.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 11:46:48 am
I think we might end up thinking of Poor House as more like a cheap Workshop, good for Gardens strategies and buying a lot of cheap things. Although obviously it has more utility in other contexts.

At $1, it will be really tempting to spend extra buys on it when you don't really want it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 11:47:03 am
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.


Though at the time, I was thinking Graverobber would be able to hit $3P, but it can't as you say.

This was my first guess too but is it confirmed? We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before. I don't think it's quite out of the question to interpret it as shorthand for "Costing at least X and no more than Y, in coins."

Dominion cards are ridiculously precise in their language. I think if Donald wanted it to mean 'in coins' he would have written in coins.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Robz888 on August 06, 2012, 11:48:04 am
I think I am just going to talk about how each card combos with Scout. For Graverobber, well, Scout is a a card that costs between $3 and $6! Boom, right there. And of course Sage can draw Scout, so there's that. If you have Poor House in hand, you would rather have a Scout sitting next to it than a Copper. Sort of.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: gamesou on August 06, 2012, 11:48:19 am
Maybe Sage/Treasure Map can be nice ?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 11:49:53 am
I think we might end up thinking of Poor House as more like a cheap Workshop, good for Gardens strategies and buying a lot of cheap things. Although obviously it has more utility in other contexts.

Thing is, Workshop is already cheap, and Poor House is a lot worse than Workshop if you're only using it to hit $4 reliably. It neither provides extra buys, nor gains you extra cards. I don't think it's actually useful in most Gardens games at all.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 11:53:13 am
Poor house might take the 'almost always terrible but super awesome when it's good' crown. Apologies to coppersmith.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DWetzel on August 06, 2012, 11:54:31 am
In thinking about it, Poor House I think is still potentially awesome in a lot of situations.

First and most obviously, if you have one, you basically always have $4 in your hand (barring weird shenanigans like Potions).  With Gardens/Silk Road, it's a big winner (and no big deal if you draw 2 or 3 in the same hand).

I can see Poor House/Highway or Poor House/Bridge decks becoming a "thing".

Random hilarity with Minion decks.  Mix in a couple Festivals for maximum joy.

It's probably even a decent card in just less than full big money decks -- a random hand of Poor House, victory card, some other random action, and two treasures means it's a terminal Silver with no benefit.

I look forward to overbuying the living heck out of it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pauley_walnuts on August 06, 2012, 11:56:01 am
Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

Follow up rules question, the Poor House reveal only happens once, correct? If so, then the proper play on the turn stated above, should be Bazaar first, then Poor House, then Laboratory. In which case, you'll get $6.

EDIT: Second edit, actually, it's 7.

Bazaar: +1, Poor House: +1 (-3 from Coppers), Laboratory: draw two more coppers, Coppers: +5.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shraeye on August 06, 2012, 11:56:37 am
I think people aren't giving Graverobber enough credit. I'm sure it will get better with some combos from Dark Ages, but even still it's far from a bad card. I agree with others that mass graverobbers-->Province is probably not going to be fast enough, but I bet there is a lot of support for this card, with other TfB and in an engine where it can draw the card it just put on top.
The more I mull this card over the more I can see use for it.  Apprentice/Graverobber will be very powerful, and very fast.  Trashing golds with apprentice will give you a huge hand and you will likely pull some of your graverobbers into that hand.  Even without some +actions, you can retrieve your gold and buy an expensive card likely a province. (never underestimate holding 10 cards)

I suspect that Apprentice/Graverobber combo will pull provinces very quickly.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 11:56:41 am
Hamlet/Poorhouse is going to be killer.  Discard coppers, profit.  Especially with Watchtower, Minion, Library, etc
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Cuzz on August 06, 2012, 11:57:11 am


This was my first guess too but is it confirmed? We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before. I don't think it's quite out of the question to interpret it as shorthand for "Costing at least X and no more than Y, in coins."

Dominion cards are ridiculously precise in their language. I think if Donald wanted it to mean 'in coins' he would have written in coins.

Math time: I've read a good explanation that potion costs just make card costs complex (more or less). The expression "3 ≤ z ≤ 6" is shorthand for "z (is real and) between 3 and 6 inclusive," since a statement like 3 ≤ 4 + i ≤ 6 is nonsense. Hence Golem's cost does not lie between that of Steward and Adventurer.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Robz888 on August 06, 2012, 11:57:47 am
It's a little disconcerting that we have already thought up so many things that combo with Poor House. Who wants to bet this card is going to be basically a super Fool's Gold?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 12:00:10 pm
It's a little disconcerting that we have already thought up so many things that combo with Poor House. Who wants to bet this card is going to be basically a super Fool's Gold?

I'm betting against it. I think it's going to be harder than you think to make it worthwhile. Though I don't doubt it's super utility when it is.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shraeye on August 06, 2012, 12:01:23 pm
I'm betting against it. I think it's going to be harder than you think to make it worthwhile. Though I don't doubt it's super utility when it is.

So far I agree.  Poor house looks like a terrible card, but also a terribly fun card.  It will have its niches like any other card; perhaps it is just perversely fun to think them up.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 12:02:17 pm
Poor house might take the 'almost always terrible but super awesome when it's good' crown. Apologies to coppersmith.

I expect Poor House to be good a lot more often than Coppersmith.  Probably a little more narrow than "the Action equivalent of Fool's Gold", but that's the comparison coming to my head right now.

I think all this talk about using it as a Workshop, or with Gardens/SR is insane.  This is definitely a card that loves engines hardcore.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Dsell on August 06, 2012, 12:02:32 pm
Graverobber seems like it can green obscenely fast.

And militia is a liability on PH/village engine boards. Village->PH->PH nets province unless you draw a copper.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsimantov on August 06, 2012, 12:03:08 pm
We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before.

We actually have, though. Check the Alchemy rulebook.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 12:04:01 pm
It's a little disconcerting that we have already thought up so many things that combo with Poor House. Who wants to bet this card is going to be basically a super Fool's Gold?

I do!  It's going to be just like Fool's Gold, except it will bring joy to the games it's in, rather than destroy joy.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shMerker on August 06, 2012, 12:05:01 pm
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.


Though at the time, I was thinking Graverobber would be able to hit $3P, but it can't as you say.

This was my first guess too but is it confirmed? We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before. I don't think it's quite out of the question to interpret it as shorthand for "Costing at least X and no more than Y, in coins."

Dominion cards are ridiculously precise in their language. I think if Donald wanted it to mean 'in coins' he would have written in coins.

It's actually already covered in the Alchemy rules.

Quote
References to a cost range in coins does not include cards with $P in the cost.
Example: a card that refers to cards costing "from $3 to $6" would mean cards costing
exactly $3, $4, $5, or $6. No cards published so far use this phrasing, but if one does in
a later expansion, the range will not include cards with $P in the cost.

So no digging up the familiars or alchemists that were trashed for possessions. They cremate those suckers.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 12:05:54 pm
I don't think anyone mentioned this yet, but graverobber can't pick any potion cost cards out of the trash. $4P for example is not between $3 and $6.

Both Graverobber and Sage interact poorly with $2P cost Alchemy cards. Can't gain Scying Pools from the trash, and can't hit a Scrying Pool with Sage. Ditto University, Apothecary.


Though at the time, I was thinking Graverobber would be able to hit $3P, but it can't as you say.

This was my first guess too but is it confirmed? We havent seen the "costing $X to $Y" notation before. I don't think it's quite out of the question to interpret it as shorthand for "Costing at least X and no more than Y, in coins."

Dominion cards are ridiculously precise in their language. I think if Donald wanted it to mean 'in coins' he would have written in coins.

It's actually already covered in the Alchemy rules.

Quote
References to a cost range in coins does not include cards with $P in the cost.
Example: a card that refers to cards costing "from $3 to $6" would mean cards costing
exactly $3, $4, $5, or $6. No cards published so far use this phrasing, but if one does in
a later expansion, the range will not include cards with $P in the cost.

Oh that Donald. Always planning ahead.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 12:06:06 pm
I'm wondering if Poor House will be difficult to keep track of in real life. It will require you to keep track of your money along with your actions as you play cards. For example:

Play:
Bazaar - $1
Poor House (reveal 2 Coppers and a Laboratory) - $3
Laboratory (draw Copper and Poor House) - $3
Poor House (reveal 3 Coppers) - $4
3 Coppers - $7

If you just played your cards quickly, it would be easy to forget how much each Poor House netted. And this isn't just theoretical - it could definitely be worth playing a Poor House before a cantrip if you have extra actions, just in case you draw another Treasure.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Voltgloss on August 06, 2012, 12:09:09 pm
If the board has Remake, Poor House, and a $3-cost Village (Village, Shanty Town, Fishing Village), why not open Remake?  For the Poor House strat, you want to (1) get Poor Houses, (2) get Villages, and (3) trash Coppers/Estates.  Remake does all of those things.

Howver, a caveat:  playing multiple Poor Houses hits you with the treasures penalty multiple times.  If your hand is Village-Poor House-Poor House-Copper-Copper, and your Village draws another Copper, then each PH is only worth $1 and you only have $5 to spend.  Ironically, Shanty Town is better in that situation because it won't draw anything.

PH might be helpful in Curse-heavy games.  A hand with even just one PH is always going to get you at least $4 (barring Potions/HoPs).  A hand with even just one Copper can get you a PH.  A hand with one PH and one Silver is always going to get you at least $5 (again, barring Potions/HoPs).

Tracking the +$ you get from playing each PH is no more difficult than tracking the +$ you get from things like Tribute or Harvest.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 12:18:18 pm
You guys think Donald's lurking in this thread? I would be.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 12:23:15 pm
Posted initial thoughts in that other thread.

When is next batch to be released?  ;D
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 12:24:35 pm
Posted initial thoughts in that other thread.

When is next batch to be released?  ;D

I'm assuming tomorrow morning at 9 am EST again.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: yuma on August 06, 2012, 12:42:10 pm
I am sure house rules can be made for poor house just like I do with harvest-put the dewan cards underneath harvest-and tribute-have the opponent place his revealed cards horizontal on his discard.... If nothing else piece of paper or vp tokens can be used...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 12:46:47 pm
I think it could have used mechanic from Nightfall, where you rotate the card depending on how many hitpoints it has.

See those red stripes on edges? It represents number of health:
(http://www.gamesalute.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/nightfall-card-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 12:47:31 pm
I am sure house rules can be made for poor house just like I do with harvest-put the dewan cards underneath harvest-and tribute-have the opponent place his revealed cards horizontal on his discard.... If nothing else piece of paper or vp tokens can be used...

That seems legit for Tribute, but I would never do that for Harvest.  Those cards are supposed to be discarded, and there are many cases where they'll need to stay in your discard pile.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 12:48:29 pm
I think it could have used mechanic from Nightfall, where you rotate the card depending on how many hitpoints it has.

See those red stripes on edges? It represents number of health:
(tacky nightfall card)

That card art is so tacky.  *shudder*
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 12:55:05 pm
When a card generates a variable number of coins, I generally rotate it to indicate that. 3 coins = 3 o'clock = rotate the card 90 degrees to the right.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DrFlux on August 06, 2012, 01:06:23 pm
I think people aren't giving Graverobber enough credit. I'm sure it will get better with some combos from Dark Ages, but even still it's far from a bad card. I agree with others that mass graverobbers-->Province is probably not going to be fast enough, but I bet there is a lot of support for this card, with other TfB and in an engine where it can draw the card it just put on top.
The more I mull this card over the more I can see use for it.  Apprentice/Graverobber will be very powerful, and very fast.  Trashing golds with apprentice will give you a huge hand and you will likely pull some of your graverobbers into that hand.  Even without some +actions, you can retrieve your gold and buy an expensive card likely a province. (never underestimate holding 10 cards)

I suspect that Apprentice/Graverobber combo will pull provinces very quickly.

Meh. Apprentice/Graverobber is not nearly as good as say tunnel/Apprentice. Say you have Apprentice and a gold, you gain six cards. You play a graverobber to gain back the gold. That's a net gain of +3 cards and -1 action b/c graverobber is a terminal. You could have done the same thing with a laboratory and a smithy, and you wouldn't need a grave-digger in your deck. The math gets even worse if you trash 5 cost things with apprentice. I'm not sure I would NEVER use grave-digger in this way, but it strikes me as mediocre.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 06, 2012, 01:10:20 pm
Meh. Apprentice/Graverobber is not nearly as good as say tunnel/Apprentice.

Hoard/Apprentice?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: joel88s on August 06, 2012, 01:10:27 pm
Quote
It's actually already covered in the Alchemy rules.

Quote
References to a cost range in coins does not include cards with $P in the cost.
Example: a card that refers to cards costing "from $3 to $6" would mean cards costing
exactly $3, $4, $5, or $6. No cards published so far use this phrasing, but if one does in
a later expansion, the range will not include cards with $P in the cost.

Awesome. I'm sure a lot of us first read that and guessed even then that "but if one does in a later expansion..." was code for "when this card here I already made up but am not telling you about eventually shows up..." - but of course had long since forgotten about it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 06, 2012, 01:20:33 pm
Here's my crosspost.

Graverobber - I suspect this will be an underachiever or at least very specific, but it may combo well with other cards from Dark Ages, that's hard to gauge at this time. Messing with the trash has always been tricky as we see in many fan cards. Mind you that this card costs $5 and this is a highly contested price point, Witch and Mountebank are also here. Still, a cheaper Expand that only works on Actions can be fine for an early Oasis -> Grand Market, but soon you'll be running out of Action cards and you may want that Woodcutter back. The other thing it has against it is that it's a terminal. Terminals are always carefully measured against each other. We could care less about non-terminals, but you only want so much terminals and I don't think graverobber will be one of them often. It would be interesting if you have to worry about Salvaging/Remodeling Provinces, but you need Bridge or Highway for that.

Poor House - Okay, so we finally have a $1 card and it's an action focused one, that seems easy enough. Minion decks might like it and Scrying Pools, otherwise it will often be a terminal Silver or even Copper. Cantrip chains will end up drawing the same cards you would have drawn anyway. But hey, it costs $1 so we shouldn't expect much from it. I wonder if it's really going to hurt Upgrades and Remakes.

Sage - To me this seems like a slightly worse Farming Village, so $3 might be right. It feels a bit like Scheme in a sense that it doesn't really do anything on its own, but it can be a help if you ever have a spare buy or gain. On its own it's not enough for me to open Ironworks, but it may be a nice target if other Ironworks targets are out there. A card like Sage never hurts and cards like that are always in high demand. Goons will love it.

Another thing: I love the art on these cards, especially Sage with its small easter egg capital "D" on one of the books. Poor House has that "Young Witch" Cornucopia style that I'm not particularly fan of, but it's still better than Harem! :D
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 01:23:09 pm
I think people aren't giving Graverobber enough credit. I'm sure it will get better with some combos from Dark Ages, but even still it's far from a bad card. I agree with others that mass graverobbers-->Province is probably not going to be fast enough, but I bet there is a lot of support for this card, with other TfB and in an engine where it can draw the card it just put on top.
The more I mull this card over the more I can see use for it.  Apprentice/Graverobber will be very powerful, and very fast.  Trashing golds with apprentice will give you a huge hand and you will likely pull some of your graverobbers into that hand.  Even without some +actions, you can retrieve your gold and buy an expensive card likely a province. (never underestimate holding 10 cards)

I suspect that Apprentice/Graverobber combo will pull provinces very quickly.

Meh. Apprentice/Graverobber is not nearly as good as say tunnel/Apprentice. Say you have Apprentice and a gold, you gain six cards. You play a graverobber to gain back the gold. That's a net gain of +3 cards and -1 action b/c graverobber is a terminal. You could have done the same thing with a laboratory and a smithy, and you wouldn't need a grave-digger in your deck. The math gets even worse if you trash 5 cost things with apprentice. I'm not sure I would NEVER use grave-digger in this way, but it strikes me as mediocre.

When you graverob a Gold, it goes on top of your deck.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wingnut on August 06, 2012, 01:37:01 pm
I'm just waiting for the fun time when someone (ok me more likely) tries a Poor House/Chapel open, just for fun.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 06, 2012, 01:43:11 pm
Rules question:

Your hand:  Laboratory, Bazaar, Poor House, Copper, Copper.

Play Laboratory, draw two Coppers.  Play Bazaar, draw another Copper.  Your hand now looks like:  Poor House, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, Copper, and you've already produced $1 to spend from the Bazaar.

Now play Poor House and all of the Coppers.  How much do you have to spend now?

Option 1:  $6.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $0 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.
Option 2:  $5.  You got $1 from the Bazaar, $-1 from the Poor House, and $5 from five Coppers.

What I'm getting at is that I'm not sure if Poor House's $0 minimum means that Poor House can't produce less than $0, or if your total coins to spend so far can't be less than $0.

Poor House can net you negative coins. Option 2 is correct. Donald has confirmed it at BGG.

On BGG, Jeff Wolfe (one of the Dominion playtesters) gave this example:
"(assume Council Room or something)
Play Market, you have 1 coin to spend
Play Market, you have 2 coins to spend
Play Poor House and reveal 5 Silver cards, you have 1 coin to spend
Play 5 Silvers, you have 11 coins to spend"
(End of Quote)

So it appears that Poor House only reduces the value of money you have gained from the previous action cards you played before Poor House.  Once you start playing your treasures, it does not affect their value.  And Donald X. gave a thumbs up to Jeff's example.

I'm sure if you play Village, Black Market, some treasure, and then Poor House, the Poor House could eat into coins generated by the Treasures already played.  This is clearly a challenging card to use correctly, which I like.  I mean, it's probably easy to tell what kind of deck it thrives in (Treasureless, preferably with +Actions, of course), but possibly tricky to play out in any one turn optimally.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 01:46:07 pm
I'm just waiting for the fun time when someone (ok me more likely) tries a Poor House/Chapel open, just for fun.

I bet that it'll be better to open Chapel/something else, and then pick up a poor house on the second shuffle.

Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 01:55:28 pm
I'm just waiting for the fun time when someone (ok me more likely) tries a Poor House/Chapel open, just for fun.

I bet that it'll be better to open Chapel/something else, and then pick up a poor house on the second shuffle.

Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

Sage at least skips Hag curses, so there's that. (Actually I imagine a Farming Village that doesn't brake for Copper will be surprisingly effective against Curses in general.)

About Chapel/PH you might be right, as weird as it is to me. What do you even want in an early Chapel deck when your early money problems are practically nonexistent? Maybe you just open Chapel/Village or something so that you can Chapel at maximum efficiency and add in your Poor Houses later when you actually have to care about money?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 01:58:04 pm
KC-Sage seems like a pretty powerful drawing engine.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 02:00:41 pm
I just read through the thread and I don't think anyone mentioned the TR-PH combo.  This was the biggest one that occurred to me.

You need heavy trashing to get rid of the Copper (Chapel and Remake are probably best; Steward might be OK).  You don't mind the Estates much.  PH is good at getting you to $4, so TR is easy enough to buy.  When you get rid of your starting Copper, you should be able to green quickly and with great resilience -- all you need is TR-PH in hand.  I think this beats out combos with most Villages, since you only need two cards in hand to make it work instead of three (Village and two PH).

The exception would be Hamlet, which discards and provides +Buy.  If we want to get into ridiculous X-card combo territory, I think TR-PH-Hamlet-Steward would be AMAZING.  Hamlet provides +Buy and +Action and discards residual Coppers.  PH is your moneymaker.  Steward does early Copper trashing and later provides moderate card draw.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 06, 2012, 02:06:02 pm
Sage is going to be a favorite of mine, just because it facilitates engines beautifully.

Sage + Minion looks decent, because you don't really want to spend your $3's on too much Silvers.

And then there's Sage + HP.
Yay, Sage draws a HP!
Boo, HP drew a Sage. :p
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Ulthwithian on August 06, 2012, 02:15:23 pm
Personally, the first card I thought of when seeing Graverobber was Feast.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Voltgloss on August 06, 2012, 02:16:01 pm
(http://i.qkme.me/3qdilh.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 02:16:51 pm
Cross-posting.

Written before reading any other discussion, of course. :)


Graverobber

It is a cheap Expand, but only works on Action cards.  It is conveniently priced at $5, so it can expand itself and dig itself back out of the trash (ZOMBIES).  It is hard to judge this card (probably most of the cards, actually) without knowing what is in the rest of the set.  Thinking of the existing trashers, I don't think the known cards are enough to make Graverobber something to build a deck around.  But DA may have some other interesting trashers and self-trshers that make GR more worthwhile.  As is, however, I think it is pretty decent.  Not a game changer, but average strength.

Poor House

This card looks like a weak version of Horse Traders to me.  HT is very good at getting you to $5, but not much more.  PH guarantees $4, but not much more.  It looks like a phenomenal card for treasureless engines (Scrying Pool, maybe?) and would work well with sifters like Warehouse.  With sufficient trashing to get rid of starting Coppers, I think a particularly strong combo would be TR-PH.  All you need are those two cards in a hand without treasure, and you've got an instant Province.  I think this will be one of those cards that is weak on most boards but absolutely dominating with the right setup.  Looking forward to seeing what other DA cards come up -- particularly strong combo pieces that cost $4 or less.

Sage

Looks like it might be a good way to get combo pieces in line, but you need a relatively treasureless deck (in that Silver would get in the way of Sage).  Otherwise, I can't see this card being particularly powerful.  Maybe some other DA cards will change that.

After reading the thread, I think Graverobber+University would be a really neat combo (for getting lots of $5 actions to trash) and TR/KC-Sage would be kinda nice.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shMerker on August 06, 2012, 02:17:26 pm
I'm sure if you play Village, Black Market, some treasure, and then Poor House, the Poor House could eat into coins generated by the Treasures already played.  This is clearly a challenging card to use correctly, which I like.  I mean, it's probably easy to tell what kind of deck it thrives in (Treasureless, preferably with +Actions, of course), but possibly tricky to play out in any one turn optimally.

I don't see that being a big concern since the Black Market will have already gotten the treasures out of your hand. Under most circumstances that just means you save Black Market and Poor House to be the last actions you play. It only really becomes an issue with draw-to-x cards (And I guess maybe Menagerie or Shanty Town).
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 02:17:55 pm
2/5 SPLIT

OPEN PH/IGG

Look at all the Coppers I give.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: chwhite on August 06, 2012, 02:20:09 pm
2/5 SPLIT

OPEN PH/IGG

Look at all the Coppers I give.

Actually... IGG decks are one of the few situations where Poor House's "a hand with me is guaranteed $4" quality might actually be really nice.  Poor House-IGG-Estate-Curse-Curse is another IGG.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 06, 2012, 02:28:10 pm
Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

In the beginning this is great for getting your $4 in hand on turn 3. Sage/Sea Hag for example even if your oponent flipped your Sea Hag.


I also try to come up with some nice interactions with Graverobber.
I'm not sure but Mining Village+Graverobber may be no super-combo, but could be lots of fun:
Play Mining Village #1, trash it for $2, play Graverobber gain it and put it on top of your deck,
play Mining Village #2, draw Mining Village #1, trash it for $2, play Graverobber ... you get the idea.

Also, Graverobber+Inn anyone?
Trash Inn for a Province. Get it later back with Graverobber for the the nice on-gain effect where you may draw them together again. Repeat.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Voltgloss on August 06, 2012, 02:31:08 pm
2/5 SPLIT

OPEN PH/IGG

Look at all the Coppers I give.

Actually... IGG decks are one of the few situations where Poor House's "a hand with me is guaranteed $4" quality might actually be really nice.  Poor House-IGG-Estate-Curse-Curse is another IGG.

Holy crud, Poor House-IGG-anything is another IGG.  Because you don't get the extra Copper from IGG until after you play Poor House.

Insanity Wolf has a point.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 06, 2012, 02:36:52 pm
Cross-posting.

Written before reading any other discussion, of course. :)

[..]

After reading the thread, I think Graverobber+University would be a really neat combo (for getting lots of $5 actions to trash) and TR/KC-Sage would be kinda nice.
Okay, sure, Graverobber may have some nice combos, but it seems very specific to me in that it needs a combo partner. A card like Mountebank or Witch doesn't need a partner at that price point. But then again, I haven't seen the rest of the cards.

I'm anxious to see what's behind the curtain.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DrFlux on August 06, 2012, 02:37:53 pm
One thing no one has noticed about sage: say you open sage/X. If you draw sage and X together on turn 3, you will fail to find anything. This makes it a little worse as an opener, though not quite as risky as opening double terminal.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 02:39:11 pm
Cross-posting.

Written before reading any other discussion, of course. :)

[..]

After reading the thread, I think Graverobber+University would be a really neat combo (for getting lots of $5 actions to trash) and TR/KC-Sage would be kinda nice.
Okay, sure, Graverobber may have some nice combos, but it seems very specific to me in that it needs a combo partner. A card like Mountebank or Witch doesn't need a partner at that price point. But then again, I haven't seen the rest of the cards.

I'm anxious to see what's behind the curtain.

Sure, but no one said that Graverobber is the best $5 in the game. It's more fair to compare with more moderately powered $5s.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 06, 2012, 02:39:54 pm
One thing no one has noticed about sage: say you open sage/X. If you draw sage and X together on turn 3, you will fail to find anything. This makes it a little worse as an opener, though not quite as risky as opening double terminal.

This makes it worse than Scheme, but still you have a decent chance to get either X or Sage in turn 4.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 02:39:57 pm
But, like, who cares? Cause you got the card you wanted anyway, without Sage. That's like complaining that your Menagerie won't activate cause you have two Platinums.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 02:40:43 pm
I don't understand why people are saying that Sage + Counting House is a good combo. Sure, if you have 2 Sages in your hand and nothing but Sages and a Counting House in your deck, you can discard all your Coppers and play Counting House. But, if you only have 1 Sage in hand to start a turn, there's just as good of a chance to reshuffle your deck and have Counting House be near the top. Plus, once you buy a Province, Sage starts hitting that instead. I think we'll find Sage + Counting House is more of a nombo than a combo.

Moved this here because the other thread wasn't the right place for it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 02:44:05 pm
Okay, sure, Graverobber may have some nice combos, but it seems very specific to me in that it needs a combo partner. A card like Mountebank or Witch doesn't need a partner at that price point. But then again, I haven't seen the rest of the cards.

I'm anxious to see what's behind the curtain.

In the preview post, Donald described DA as the "crazy combo" expansion.  While we've had power cards that don't need a partner, I expect a great deal of the cards in DA will need partners, and they will be AMAZING with those partners.

Donald also called DA the "Johnny" expansion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2652.msg69867#msg69867).  Johnny is all about winning with creativity and flair.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 02:53:47 pm
KC-Sage seems like a pretty powerful drawing engine.

Disagree here. KC/sage gets you three cards, which are guaranteed to be not coppers or estates good, and the actions to play them... but it only nets you a gain of one card, and you used up a KC. Not that great of a drawer - you exchange one amazing card and one meh card for three cards which are at least meh or might be good.

It would work if you don't have villages and need KC/cantrip to be your village, but other than that, I'd rather use my KC plays on something else, I think.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: RiemannZetaJones on August 06, 2012, 02:55:42 pm
Okay, sure, Graverobber may have some nice combos, but it seems very specific to me in that it needs a combo partner. A card like Mountebank or Witch doesn't need a partner at that price point. But then again, I haven't seen the rest of the cards.

I'm anxious to see what's behind the curtain.

In the preview post, Donald described DA as the "crazy combo" expansion.  While we've had power cards that don't need a partner, I expect a great deal of the cards in DA will need partners, and they will be AMAZING with those partners.

Donald also called DA the "Johnny" expansion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2652.msg69867#msg69867).  Johnny is all about winning with creativity and flair.

This is very true. Graverobber increases the space of things you can try to do in the game in a big way. I hope, and sort of expect, we'll see some cute trick decks built around it. For instance, the synergy between Apprentice and Graverobbers seems promising.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jotheonah on August 06, 2012, 02:56:05 pm
idk, when I'm using KC in a drawing engine I usually have more than one in my deck. And I use the first one to find the others and the best targets for them. Sage would help that.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 02:56:52 pm
I love how Sage + terminal silver (Monument, Militia, Swindler) actually make buying silver very bad.  ;D
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: blueblimp on August 06, 2012, 02:59:41 pm
I'm thinking Poor House is getting a bit overrated. Outside of an engine, its effect is basically the same as Secret Chamber, which is far from a power card. In an engine, it's fairly similar to Harvest later on (as a terminal giving up to $4), but much worse early on to compensate for its cheaper cost. Harvest is not a great card.

Poor House should be better than SC and Harvest, but even so...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Powerman on August 06, 2012, 03:05:32 pm
I'm thinking Poor House is getting a bit overrated. Outside of an engine, its effect is basically the same as Secret Chamber, which is far from a power card. In an engine, it's fairly similar to Harvest later on (as a terminal giving up to $4), but much worse early on to compensate for its cheaper cost. Harvest is not a great card.

Poor House should be better than SC and Harvest, but even so...

Harvest is not a great card because it costs $5.  I would not be surprised if it cost $3, opening Double Harvest would be as good as double-masq.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 03:09:10 pm
I'm thinking Poor House is getting a bit overrated. Outside of an engine, its effect is basically the same as Secret Chamber, which is far from a power card. In an engine, it's fairly similar to Harvest later on (as a terminal giving up to $4), but much worse early on to compensate for its cheaper cost. Harvest is not a great card.

Poor House should be better than SC and Harvest, but even so...

PH has the potential to stack much better than PH, because it doesn't require discarding.  Playing two SC back to back is useless.  There's no point in TR/KC SC either.

I think the main thing that people are missing is how difficult it will be to make PH work.  But on the boards where it does work, it will be amazing.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 06, 2012, 03:13:29 pm
I love building treasure-free decks whenever it’s feasible, so I really like Poor House. PH will combo amazingly with Vineyard for several reasons:
- Good Vineyard decks get money from action cards, not from treasure
- You don’t need any cash in your deck to get Vineyards, just a potion
- You can stack lots of PH’s for cheap to help pop points out of Vineyards, and use the PH money to buy more action cards.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 03:13:52 pm
Well, poorhouse is one of those things which will really shine when you hit its niche - a treasureless engine. I agree that it would be pretty useless outside of that. But four poorhouses is all you need for consistent double-province turns.

And since it costs 1, four poorhouses is actually a reasonable number to get. Sure, four Harvests can get you double-province, but you have to use four $5 hands to get it.

Open Workers Village/Chapel, you'll have a deck with three WV, four poor houses, and one chapel in no time at all. If you open, like, Remake/Steward in a game with a village on the board, that'll also get you there super-fast.

...actually, in general, I think that the presence of Poorhouse and some sub-$5 village is going to encourage faking a chapel opening - opening with two weaker trashers if chapel isn't around. Remake/Steward. Moneylender/Steward.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: PigFiend on August 06, 2012, 03:39:57 pm
Open Workers Village/Chapel, you'll have a deck with three WV, four poor houses, and one chapel in no time at all. If you open, like, Remake/Steward in a game with a village on the board, that'll also get you there super-fast.

...actually, in general, I think that the presence of Poorhouse and some sub-$5 village is going to encourage faking a chapel opening - opening with two weaker trashers if chapel isn't around. Remake/Steward. Moneylender/Steward.

I was thinking similarly, like Remake/Chapel or even Chapel/Chapel.
Nomad Camp/a village card and a Chapel
Even the ordinarily perilous Mint/Chapel. The lucky turn 3 and 4 draws are, funny enough, 1 Copper each.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 03:43:44 pm
Volt, I see your wolf and raise you a wolf.
(http://i.qkme.me/3qdk0g.jpg)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: blueblimp on August 06, 2012, 03:44:05 pm
I'm thinking Poor House is getting a bit overrated. Outside of an engine, its effect is basically the same as Secret Chamber, which is far from a power card. In an engine, it's fairly similar to Harvest later on (as a terminal giving up to $4), but much worse early on to compensate for its cheaper cost. Harvest is not a great card.

Poor House should be better than SC and Harvest, but even so...

Harvest is not a great card because it costs $5.  I would not be surprised if it cost $3, opening Double Harvest would be as good as double-masq.
PH is bad early though, worth around $1 average, unlike Harvest which would normally be a terminal Silver. (Not that I really think double-Harvest would be a good opening, anyway. Harvest/Silver, maybe.) By the time it becomes good, you're limited more by +actions and room in your deck, and PH is a terminal that does nothing apart from giving coin.

Terminals that do little apart from giving coin (or equivalent) tend to be situational at best or outright weak: Harvest, Chancellor, Counting House, Secret Chamber. (Merchant Ship can be pretty good, but its niche is big money, not engines.)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Kuildeous on August 06, 2012, 03:46:05 pm
One thing no one has noticed about sage: say you open sage/X. If you draw sage and X together on turn 3, you will fail to find anything. This makes it a little worse as an opener, though not quite as risky as opening double terminal.

Actually, I did point that out in my analysis.

If you draw both in Turn 3, then you put your deck in your discard pile. Now on Turn 4, you have a chance to get Sage, your $4, and your Turn 3 purchase.

Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 03:49:38 pm
Open Workers Village/Chapel, you'll have a deck with three WV, four poor houses, and one chapel in no time at all. If you open, like, Remake/Steward in a game with a village on the board, that'll also get you there super-fast.

...actually, in general, I think that the presence of Poorhouse and some sub-$5 village is going to encourage faking a chapel opening - opening with two weaker trashers if chapel isn't around. Remake/Steward. Moneylender/Steward.

I was thinking similarly, like Remake/Chapel or even Chapel/Chapel.
Nomad Camp/a village card and a Chapel
Even the ordinarily perilous Mint/Chapel. The lucky turn 3 and 4 draws are, funny enough, 1 Copper each.

Buy 2 PHs, Chapel the remaining Coppers and the Mint, shack up on WV!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: PigFiend on August 06, 2012, 03:58:48 pm
Sage is the sort of card I have a hard time leaving alone.
For Conspirator, it's probably better than Scheme.
The luck swings in Sea Hag games will be interesting at first but eventually make them even more boring.
As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.
I bet they'll pile-out in Haggler games too.

Ironworks for Sage, Great Hall, and Estate pile-outs? Prrrobably not... I think. OoO
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Voltgloss on August 06, 2012, 04:07:28 pm
Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

Oh ye of little faith.  The answer to THAT dilemma is clear:  buy Poor House.

(Yes I know the Sages won't hit the PH.  The idea is to use PH to springboard turns that you would otherwise pass into getting <i>something</i> worthwhile at the $4 price point.  Or at the very least Silver.  Then PH+Silver = $5 in hand.)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 04:12:54 pm
Sage is the sort of card I have a hard time leaving alone.
For Conspirator, it's probably better than Scheme.
The luck swings in Sea Hag games will be interesting at first but eventually make them even more boring.
As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.
I bet they'll pile-out in Haggler games too.

Ironworks for Sage, Great Hall, and Estate pile-outs? Prrrobably not... I think. OoO
I don't think sage 'gets shut down by' duchies, any more than any other card-draw does. I do think that it loses power as the game goes on. If you open Sage/X and draw Sage, you get to skip over everything in your deck besides the X - super-fast cycling, find your good card. But late-game, when your deck is mostly cards you've bought... well, at best it'll skip a copper or estate or two, but maybe your next card was >2 anyway and it's just a cantrip.

It IS a good conspirator enabler, but not any better than scheme! If you buy two schemes, then all conspirators for the rest of the game are activated. Whereas this still runs the risk of having dead conspirators in your hand, while making it easier to draw them.

Like scheme, definitely a card to pick up in engines whenever you have spare buy.

Ironworks for Sage/GH/estate pileouts will still be low-scoring, I'm not buying it that as a combo.

Also, how is nobody but me crying just thinking about a Sage/Sea Hag opening? Cycle your deck super-fast, get lots of plays of Sea Hag in, have both of you be unable to get over $2 or $3 for half the game.

Oh ye of little faith.  The answer to THAT dilemma is clear:  buy Poor House.

(Yes I know the Sages won't hit the PH.  The idea is to use PH to springboard turns that you would otherwise pass into getting <i>something</i> worthwhile at the $4 price point.  Or at the very least Silver.  Then PH+Silver = $5 in hand.)

Hehe, so true! Card synergies are happening already.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 06, 2012, 04:27:52 pm
PH and Hamlet = BFF

The thing I like about PH is that with Hamlet you can start greening really early since those Provinces really don't hurt you much. Hamlet discards those coppers for + Buy and + Actions to buy more Hamlets/PH and play more PH = Win

Sage seems like a card that with the right components can end up being good. Seems good for engine games where you need to get past your green and treasures.

Graverobber I'm sure also has its applications on the right board.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 06, 2012, 04:30:18 pm
Might it be an idea to split the preview topics per card instead of per three?

Because of the newness and hotness of the cards, the more focused the discussion, the better, it seems to me.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 04:31:04 pm
Might it be an idea to split the preview topics per card instead of per three?

Because of the newness and hotness of the cards, the more focused the discussion, the better, it seems to me.

But this way allows for discussion of combos with each other.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: PigFiend on August 06, 2012, 04:34:48 pm
As it gets shut down by Duchies, I think it might be a pile-out for Goons engines.
I don't think sage 'gets shut down by' duchies, any more than any other card-draw does. I do think that it loses power as
My point was more that it'll probably shine better in VP token strategies like Goons engines because it won't be impeded by Victory cards.

Point taken on Scheme - Sage. I suppose it's sort of moot to debate which is better for Conspirator since it'd be wise to buy Scheme or Sage for it, both if they're available.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 04:35:46 pm
So what do people think of Graverobber as a terminal in a standard engine? Play your engine, draw two graverobbers and any other $5, graverob the $5 into a province and then back on top of the deck.

It seems sort of iffy, but maybe I'm underestimating it?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 04:42:09 pm
Seems to me like you'd want to have a nebulous plan for Graverobber, but you'd have to use it sort of opportunistically, like Develop. If there's something useful in the trash, play it to gain that card before drawing your whole deck. Then draw that card and either play it or trash it using another Graverobber. In any case, I think you'd nearly always want at least two Graverobbers if you want any.

I'm just speculating, of course. All I know for sure is that it sounds like a lot of fun and is my favorite card of this first batch of three.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: PigFiend on August 06, 2012, 05:09:03 pm
Graverob Transmute into Philosopher's Stone! Hai-ya!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Young Nick on August 06, 2012, 05:10:50 pm
I, for one, still think PH has goofy wording. As is, it looks like you get $0-4 from a single PH, never more, never less. Apparently this is wrong. I guess that doesn't seem intuitive.

Also, the wording on Graverobber does lend itself to enforceability issues. It doesn't say "may" and doesn't say "or reveal a hand with no such actions." If someone didn't want to trash an action from their hand, but also didn't want to pick up a Silver from the trash, there'd be no way to prove that they had no cards in their hand to trash.

The cards look cool, but I am disappointed about their wording.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Young Nick on August 06, 2012, 05:11:41 pm
Also, I have to wonder why theory posted this and not DXV, himself.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 06, 2012, 05:12:00 pm
Seems to me like you'd want to have a nebulous plan for Graverobber, but you'd have to use it sort of opportunistically, like Develop. If there's something useful in the trash, play it to gain that card before drawing your whole deck. Then draw that card and either play it or trash it using another Graverobber. In any case, I think you'd nearly always want at least two Graverobbers if you want any.

I'm just speculating, of course. All I know for sure is that it sounds like a lot of fun and is my favorite card of this first batch of three.

Hmm, now that you mention Develop, maybe the two play well together. Develop a gold into KC and Graverobber, use robber to get Gold back, IDK.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WheresMyElephant on August 06, 2012, 05:26:16 pm
I, for one, still think PH has goofy wording. As is, it looks like you get $0-4 from a single PH, never more, never less. Apparently this is wrong. I guess that doesn't seem intuitive.

It is a little confusing at first glance but the way out is to just realize that the +$4 and the -$X are totally separate effects and have nothing to do with each other. After the first effect is resolved, you resolve the second, and the second might as well be printed on a separate card for all that they interact with each other. (For instance if another card somehow prevented or modified the first effect, the second effect would still function exactly the same.) So why should the second effect stop at -$4? It doesn't even "know" if you gained $4 in the first place.

Anyway we've always needed manuals for edge cases, and this is no different. (How often are you really going to play PH in a deck where it's even close to giving negative coins?) And compared to "while this card is in play," PH is child's play.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Jedit on August 06, 2012, 06:05:58 pm
The Best Dominion Cards List 2013: $1 cards

My votes:

1) Poor House

Any arguments?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: LastFootnote on August 06, 2012, 06:09:37 pm
The Best Dominion Cards List 2013: $1 cards

My votes:

1) Poor House

Any arguments?

You may want to hold your vote until we're absolutely sure there are no other $1 cards in the set.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: blueblimp on August 06, 2012, 06:09:50 pm
So what do people think of Graverobber as a terminal in a standard engine? Play your engine, draw two graverobbers and any other $5, graverob the $5 into a province and then back on top of the deck.

It seems sort of iffy, but maybe I'm underestimating it?
That's seems alright if you have lots of villages. 2 actions and 3 cards to get a Province is not bad. Gold/Gold/Woodcutter uses 1 action and 3 cards to get a Province, to compare.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: engineer on August 06, 2012, 06:25:27 pm
I understand that PH can give you negative coin, but can it count against treasure that you haven't played yet? 

For example, what if I use a lab chain to draw a bunch of cards, and my hand is: Market, Poor House, Copper x7.  I play the market (and draw estate, whatever).  I have 1 coin currently.  Then I play PH.  I get +4, so 5 total.  Then what happens?

a) I get -7, but it bottoms out at zero...so if i don't play the coppers, I have zero, but if I do play the 7 coppers, I only end up with $5, since 1 + 4 - 7 + 7 = 5.
b) I only get -5, since I only have 5 coin at that point, and then I play 7 coppers, so I have $7.

I feel like the answer is (b) based on previous posts, but I'm still not 100% clear on this issue.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 06:29:50 pm
b). It says on card you can't have less than 0 cash.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 06:31:56 pm
I understand that PH can give you negative coin, but can it count against treasure that you haven't played yet? 

For example, what if I use a lab chain to draw a bunch of cards, and my hand is: Market, Poor House, Copper x7.  I play the market (and draw estate, whatever).  I have 1 coin currently.  Then I play PH.  I get +4, so 5 total.  Then what happens?

a) I get -7, but it bottoms out at zero...so if i don't play the coppers, I have zero, but if I do play the 7 coppers, I only end up with $5, since 1 + 4 - 7 + 7 = 5.
b) I only get -5, since I only have 5 coin at that point, and then I play 7 coppers, so I have $7.

I feel like the answer is (b) based on previous posts, but I'm still not 100% clear on this issue.

Play Market.  Coins = 1.
Play Poor House.  Coins = 5.
Poor House reveals your hand, showing 7 Treasures.  Coins = 0.
Play 7 Coppers.  Coins = 7.

So, b.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: DG on August 06, 2012, 06:43:52 pm
I'll give you inn + poor house as an interesting combo. Even that hints at problems transferring from a copper economy into a poor house deck, since where do you get the 5 coins to buy the first inn?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: engineer on August 06, 2012, 06:47:27 pm
Okay, that sounds like consensus.  Knowing Donald, he probably addresses exactly this issue in the rule book.

On a different note, I'm hoping that there are more $1 card in Dark Ages.  With the number of cards out already, the chance of getting kingdoms with just PH and upgrade/remake are very small.  I think this dynamic is interesting, and I think other things about $1 cards are interesting, so I'd like to see a few more of them in order to make the appearance of a $1 card more likely.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 06, 2012, 06:57:28 pm
A few thoughts on Poor House:

- We're all going bananas about whether PH can give negative coins (it can) and whether negative coins affect future plays of Treasures (they don't). But, all of this is pure speculation and will likely never affect anything beyond the Puzzles forum. Why would you play a PH if it makes you have less money to spend? (Alright, there may be some edge cases like HoP and Peddler and Conspirator, but these will be rare).

- PH may not combo as well with sifters / discarders as we might imagine. Say you play a Warehouse and have to decide what to discard with a hand of PH, C, C, C, E, E, E. It doesn't matter what you discard, you will still get $4. This shows how discarding Coppers only improves PH if you play more than one PH after the discard, and discarding Silver only helps if you play at least 3. Hamlet still seems pretty nice with PH, since it's cheap, gives +Buy, gives 2 Actions, and gives discarding. Still, you would have to have 2 PH + Hamlet in hand to make discarding Coppers worthwhile.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: pingpongsam on August 06, 2012, 07:03:21 pm
Once upon a time I played IRL Dominion and found the game fun. One day I thought to see if the game could be played online. I discovered Isotropic. Woe unto me for thinking I understood how the cards worked!

And now, with new untested cards coming forth, I see that I am not alone.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:11:14 pm
If you're trying to start a Conspirator chain, playing Poor House can't hurt you unless you've played a virtual $ village, like Bazaar or Festival.  It'll just keep you at 0 coins, which is totally fine, given that you'll be playing lots of Conspirators now.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: clb on August 06, 2012, 07:12:00 pm
One nuance of the Poor House that I feel we have skirted, is that the negative effect of treasures will hit each poor house, not just to first, so if you have 2 poor houses and a copper (and 2 actions), you end up with 7 to spend. With a single poor house, you are guaranteed at least 4, but 2 poor houses to not guarantee at least 8 in the same way. I suspect we will find some situations (more than very limited, but less than many) where one poor house is useful, but due to diminishing returns, there will be fewer situations where 2, 3, 4, etc poor houses are a good idea - situations like those mentioned where you can reliably empty your hand of almost all your other treasures.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: blueblimp on August 06, 2012, 07:13:30 pm
I just implemented Sage in Dominate, and interestingly, taking the included Scheme/Witch bot and replacing Scheme by Sage results in a bot that's a lot stronger (winning 63/37). I thought that I'd prefer Scheme every time, but maybe not.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 06, 2012, 07:19:57 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: CaptainNevada on August 06, 2012, 07:20:10 pm
I'm assuming the Graverobber is going to be affected by cards that events that alter the cost of cards (bridge, highway, peddler, quarry).  Because card worth using in that way is worth abusing in that manner.  Fishing Provinces out of the trash is possible with cost reducing cards, making Swindlers who hit them somewhat more interesting.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: A Drowned Kernel on August 06, 2012, 07:21:51 pm
Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shraeye on August 06, 2012, 07:23:34 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:23:39 pm
Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Embargo.  But probably other things as well!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: CaptainNevada on August 06, 2012, 07:25:02 pm
One nuance of the Poor House that I feel we have skirted, is that the negative effect of treasures will hit each poor house, not just to first, so if you have 2 poor houses and a copper (and 2 actions), you end up with 7 to spend. With a single poor house, you are guaranteed at least 4, but 2 poor houses to not guarantee at least 8 in the same way. I suspect we will find some situations (more than very limited, but less than many) where one poor house is useful, but due to diminishing returns, there will be fewer situations where 2, 3, 4, etc poor houses are a good idea - situations like those mentioned where you can reliably empty your hand of almost all your other treasures.

Since I suspect a sub-theme of the set is doing amazing things with cheap cards, Poor House is going to change how you play your hand.  Discarding copper instead of estates is better in Oasis; Cellar can get rid of those pesky treasures, and Secret Chamber can be exploited (assuming you get a + action somewhere) to get rid of the treasures before Poor House is played. 
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:25:40 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 07:30:23 pm
Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Well, at the very least, it makes it so the trash fills up with juicy actions, so people can't waste grave robber plays trashing estates and such. But yeah, I bet there will be other cards which  interact with cheap trash cards too.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 06, 2012, 07:31:07 pm
I'm assuming the Graverobber is going to be affected by cards that events that alter the cost of cards (bridge, highway, peddler, quarry).  Because card worth using in that way is worth abusing in that manner.  Fishing Provinces out of the trash is possible with cost reducing cards, making Swindlers who hit them somewhat more interesting.

Peddler and Quarry do not affect any prices until buy phase, so Graverobber will not interact with these cards in that way. 

Theoretically, yes, Highway and Bridge will be nice with Graverobber so you can gain huge cards from the trash.  On the other hand, it is quite rare for Provinces (or better) to be in the trash in the first place, so it will be very rare indeed to gain anything of real substance from the trash.  The real killer app of Graverobber is trash a $5 action >gain a Province, or trash a $3 action > gain a gold.  I would bet that the trash-for-benefit option is the choice on 90% of all Graverobber plays.  Most of the time there won't even be a $3-$6 card in the trash to gain, and even if there is it will still often be preferable to take the trash-for-benefit anyways.

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...

You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
...and this is absolutely insane!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 07:40:04 pm
Not sure if this has been commented on yet, but I like how the lower limit on Graverobber hints at things yet to come. I assume it's not on there just to stop us from picking up those sweet estates our opponents were foolish enough to trash, and I'm excited to find out what those reasons are.

Embargo.  But probably other things as well!

I don't think Embargo is a reason for that restriction.  There are only so many Curses available, so another Embargo doesn't really matter.  You can already TR- and KC-Embargo.  And using Embargo on a Possessed turn doesn't trash the Embargo either.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shraeye on August 06, 2012, 07:43:40 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: blueblimp on August 06, 2012, 07:45:14 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: CaptainNevada on August 06, 2012, 07:46:11 pm

Theoretically, yes, Highway and Bridge will be nice with Graverobber so you can gain huge cards from the trash.  On the other hand, it is quite rare for Provinces (or better) to be in the trash in the first place, so it will be very rare indeed to gain anything of real substance from the trash.  The real killer app of Graverobber is trash a $5 action >gain a Province, or trash a $3 action > gain a gold.  I would bet that the trash-for-benefit option is the choice on 90% of all Graverobber plays.  Most of the time there won't even be a $3-$6 card in the trash to gain, and even if there is it will still often be preferable to take the trash-for-benefit anyways.


Outside of the stray Swindler and Saboteur , the only time I see high value cards in the trash is very close to the endgame where it is worthwhile to trash big stuff for big gains (Salvager, Apprentice).  A zero-sum gain of victory points is a good trade by the player in the lead since the trash was previously off the table.  Graverobber puts them back into the supply, and Bridge / Highway tricks are something to consider in both using the strategy and responding to it.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:46:31 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

If you have 4 highways, 2 KCs, 2 Sabs, and 2 GRs, and your opponent already has 6 provinces, you don't deserve to live.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 06, 2012, 07:47:29 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.

Shit, busted.  :)  Is there anything worse than posting something, then realizing it's wrong about 30 seconds later, then getting the edit in lickety-split but someone still busts you anyways?  It's almost as bad as having your opponent open 5/2 on a Mountebank/Chapel board.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:48:36 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Not quite, you'd have to have two $5 cards in your hand since Graverobber gains to your deck, not to your hand.
Sorry, I don't think I understand.  I think what I wrote is legit...
Yeah that is legit now.  Before the edit you talked about KC-Graverobber and nabbing two provinces.  I think my post came right as you were editing things, sorry.

Shit, busted.  :)  Is there anything worse than posting something, then realizing it's wrong about 30 seconds later, then getting the edit in lickety-split but someone still busts you anyways?  It's almost as bad as having your opponent open 5/2 on a Mint/Fool's Gold board.

FTFY
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Wolphmaniac on August 06, 2012, 07:49:18 pm
You play a Throne Room...
...you play a Graverobber
...trashing a <$5 action card>, gaining a Province
...you play the Graverobber again
...gaining a <same $5 action card you just trashed> from the trash and putting it on your deck

Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

If you have 4 highways, 2 KCs, 2 Sabs, and 2 GRs, and your opponent already has 6 provinces, you don't deserve to live.

I can't wait to see the first script from someone pulling this off!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Jedit on August 06, 2012, 07:50:05 pm
Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs because he's trying the same trick.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shMerker on August 06, 2012, 07:51:47 pm
Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs.

I'd like to pedantically point out that you won't gain trashed Colonies this way.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:52:10 pm
Highway-Highway-KC-KC-Saboteur-Saboteur-Graverobber.  Saboteur will trash six things in your opponent's deck nominally worth at least $5, and Graverobber can nab half of those up.
Better yet, play 4 Highways first, so you trash 6 of their Provinces and get 3 of them for yourself. 54 VP swing right there, yeah.

A more realistic play: KC-KC-Highway-Sab-Graverobber.  Draw 3 cards, trash 3 cards worth 6+, then steal them all.  Bonus points awarded for stealing your opponent's KCs because he's trying the same trick.

KC-Highway will only give +3 Cards +3 Actions...  you realize the cost-lowering can't be KC'd, right?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: shMerker on August 06, 2012, 07:53:59 pm
KC-KC-Bridge-Saboteur-Graverobber
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 07:55:36 pm
This has just reminded me - we now have more cards to make Dominion limericks out of!
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: engineer on August 06, 2012, 08:08:13 pm
I just implemented Sage in Dominate, and interestingly, taking the included Scheme/Witch bot and replacing Scheme by Sage results in a bot that's a lot stronger (winning 63/37). I thought that I'd prefer Scheme every time, but maybe not.

That makes some sense.  If you draw the Witch before the scheme in a shuffle, then you still have to wait for the next shuffle to play the witch again.  If you draw the Witch before the Sage, then you still get to play it twice in the shuffle, because the Sage will run through your whole deck, triggering another reshuffle, just to get back at that Witch.  If you draw the Scheme/Sage before the Witch, then the Sage lets you play the Witch immediately, and likely gets you close to another reshuffle to see it again.  The Scheme lets you play the Witch twice, so that second case is probably a wash.

I am surprised, though, that the Sage doesn't get tripped up by silver.  If you don't get lucky enough to open 5/2, then you either have to buy silver or hope for 5 coppers to buy that witch, and the silver will be a trip card for the Sage.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: engineer on August 06, 2012, 08:13:30 pm
- PH may not combo as well with sifters / discarders as we might imagine. Say you play a Warehouse and have to decide what to discard with a hand of PH, C, C, C, E, E, E. It doesn't matter what you discard, you will still get $4. This shows how discarding Coppers only improves PH if you play more than one PH after the discard, and discarding Silver only helps if you play at least 3. Hamlet still seems pretty nice with PH, since it's cheap, gives +Buy, gives 2 Actions, and gives discarding. Still, you would have to have 2 PH + Hamlet in hand to make discarding Coppers worthwhile.

Wow, you're totally right on the money there.  :o *Pun intended*

Cards that draw and return cards to the deck, or save cards over to the next turn, would be much better combos.  Courtyard or Haven would probably be much better than warehouse, because you can save your coppers for later.  (Of course, courtyard is also a terminal.)  I still say cellar is a good combo though, because you don't have to agonize about whether to discard your coppers in the hope for better cards.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: permanoob on August 06, 2012, 08:40:57 pm
I am so happy for Sage/Counting House. Counting House is infused with the power of infinity. As you all know, exploding into a copper faceplant is just a legit activity that I partake in, and Sage is the sweet sweet cream on top of the sliced bread.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 06, 2012, 08:56:51 pm
Sage reminds me a lot of HP, but drawing one less card and always guaranteed to hit an action.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: eHalcyon on August 06, 2012, 08:58:37 pm
Sage reminds me a lot of HP, but drawing one less card and always guaranteed to hit an action.

Sage is not guaranteed to hit an action.  It can hit Silvers, Golds, Duchies, Provinces...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: O on August 06, 2012, 09:04:47 pm
I am so happy for Sage/Counting House. Counting House is infused with the power of infinity. As you all know, exploding into a copper faceplant is just a legit activity that I partake in, and Sage is the sweet sweet cream on top of the sliced bread.

Sage Countinghouse:

1) Sage doesn't go through twice like golem; there is no guarantee of it hitting the end of the shuffle (spamming sages sort of still works)
2) You need to get 5$ without buying silver, takes a few turns
3) You pull off this difficult combo and buy a province. Your sages now draw your green and your combo dies.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ehunt on August 06, 2012, 09:09:44 pm
yeah, #3 is devastating for sage/counting house

i suspect sage drawing your one damn province out of a giant stack of king's courts and grand markets is going to be the new baron copper copper copper copper.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 09:14:43 pm
My wife and I just played a game with Native Village, Poor House (blanks) and Spice Merchant.  This card is hilariously fun!  Trash all the copper down, pull in a NV mega hand, play 2 Poor Houses, instant Province.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: iMystic on August 06, 2012, 10:29:19 pm
Hamlets + Poor House is so perfect, it will be awesome and fast like hell.
Hamlets give +Buy and +Actions while also helping discarding the coppers.

Buy mass Hamlets early, then mass Poor House with Hamlets +buy.
With mass Hamlets, it is possible to discard all the coppers each turn.
If 1 Poor House found, buy 2x Hamlets / 2-4x Poor House.
If 2 Poor House found, play 2 Poor House = Province.

Can be much faster with Warehouse and Cellar.
The deck doesn't need Silver or Gold to build.
Less powerful in Colony games though.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 10:42:25 pm
In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jsh357 on August 06, 2012, 10:47:50 pm
In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

the $5 from Platinum probably dilutes the need for 3 PHs.  3 + 3 + 5 is still 11
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 06, 2012, 10:48:25 pm
In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

Courtyard?

Like, an viable Colony engine with components costing 2 or less.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 06, 2012, 10:55:00 pm
In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

the $5 from Platinum probably dilutes the need for 3 PHs.  3 + 3 + 5 is still 11

Actually, 9 is a very difficult number to get in that situation - only slightly easier than getting 12. You'd need three PHs with a copper still in hand to hit 10.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 06, 2012, 10:55:19 pm
In colony games you need 3 poor houses to get a colony. A little harder to set up -but not by THAT much. You have to add just a little bit of card draw - maybe an occasional smithy or smithy equivalent.

Courtyard?

Like, an viable Colony engine with components costing 2 or less.

Chapel, Hamlet, Courtyard, Poor House.  Wez in bidnezz.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Loschmidt on August 06, 2012, 11:38:36 pm
I think the "from $3 to $6" clause is to prevent infinite Embargoes.  Unless Dark Ages has a card that increases costs...

I'm still really interested in the $3 minimum. I don't quite buy that it is for embargo. As jotheonah and lekkit pointed out 10 embargoes is more than enough to ruin anyone's day, 50 wont make a difference.

My prediction is that there is another <$3 self trasher to come in this set with a more game breaking multi-use effect.

EDIT: Sorry I missed that Glooble already said this :(
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 07, 2012, 12:02:54 am
My wife and I just played a game with Native Village, Poor House (blanks) and Spice Merchant.  This card is hilariously fun!  Trash all the copper down, pull in a NV mega hand, play 2 Poor Houses, instant Province.
Yeah, those four steps are instant.......
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jmieden on August 07, 2012, 12:17:23 am
Played 4 games with 3 kingdoms using all three of the new cards tonight in each kingdom. Here were some things I learned about each card:

Poor House: This card was super fun to play with. I generally observed that this card has some great combo potential, especially in a deck loaded with actions and Throne Rooms (or King's Courts). Heavy trashing helps this card immensely, and its flexibility is fun. This is also especially good with extra buys and shines with Bridge.

Sage: Something I didn't expect is that Sage is a fantastic counter to Ambassador, more so even than the enabling that an opponent gets from having Sage to play their Ambassador more often. Sage is easily my favorite of the new cards because of its ability to give you a key card to your engine reliably. Sage makes it especially tempting to bypass Silver altogether.

Graverobber: This card was extremely situational. The first 2 kingdoms didn't see this card played at all, but it was amazing in the last one (which we played twice because we liked it so much). Throne Room, Remodel and Feast with this card were all pretty awesome.

Here were the key cards is the kingdoms played:
First game: City, Bridge, Herbalist, Talisman, Fool's Gold, Sage, Poor House.- We just messed around and played with the new cards.

Second game: Minion, Ambassador, Menagerie, Lighthouse, Sage, Poor House. (This game I did an almost mirror match, with both players taking a Minion based strategy. One player played Ambassador a bunch more (due to shuffle luck) and the other ended up play Menagerie and Sage to counter. Menagerie/Sage won out in the end by the estates passed with Ambassador).

Third game: Throne Room, Sage, Great Hall, Graverobber, Poor House, Remodel, Masquerade, Feast, Courtyard (Witch was the other card, but nobody took one). This one was fun! We played two games with this kingdom. We both ended up using the Throne Rooms like crazy with Sage, Feast, Poor House (since we wiped out all the copper and estates with Masquerade and Remodel) and especially Graverobber. I would recommend this kingdom to anybody to try out these new cards.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 07, 2012, 12:35:36 am
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 12:37:16 am
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

The main thing PH has going for it over FG is TR/KC.  In the right instances, PH will be oodles better.  On average, FG will be better.  And that's reflected in the cost.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ednever on August 07, 2012, 12:47:27 am
Played three games tonight with the new cards. All 2p.

My conclusions:

1- if poor house is in play in a province game, look very carefully. To make it work you need to discard and get extra actions and get draw to reliably have two in hand. If you can do it you can rush provinces pretty fast. But it dies too. Just like fg, after a few provinces getting two in hand becomes pretty difficult.

2- sage is awesome. It's power is in NOT getting silvers or other 3/4$ cards. And then using it to spam $5 cards. We played a game with festivals. At 50/50 festivals/safes you were effectively getting a $5 cards for $3. Very powerful on a 5/2 opening where you can ignore silvers altogether.
Sage starts to breakdown when you green - when it becomes a great trashing target (which makes Sense in this expansion...)

3- grave robbers was a trap card when we played. Even with a lot of Trashers it did not do very well. There are obviously going to be times when it works, but I think it will take a while to find them. Or maybe it just works well with a lot of da cards?

Fun games though. Amazing how sub-optimally one plays when there are flashy new cards in front of you...

Ed
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: CaptainNevada on August 07, 2012, 12:48:30 am
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

Without seeing the whole set I think we're limited to seeing combos with other sets.  I won't be surprised when new cards have the kind of set synergy Cornucopia had.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jmieden on August 07, 2012, 12:51:43 am
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

This was very accurate to what I experienced.

When I first saw the cards this morning, I had a freak out moment where I lamented the demise of balanced sets in Dominion. $1 cost cards?!? Gain from the trash?!? What have you done to my Dominion?!?

But then I played them, and it was fine :). They weren't even so dominant that each player NEEDED them, and they were quite fun and especially useful in the last game I posted above. Ultimately, I found them to be mostly situational (Sage seemed the least so), like almost every card in Dominion.

Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: jonts26 on August 07, 2012, 12:57:59 am
Unsurprisingly, I think people are going a bit crazy over the new cards. Yeah, it's easy to envisage situations where they are great, you can do that with any card (okay, hi scout), but these things aren't going to be so game-breaking as people think.

And put me down for shocked if Poor House is anywhere close to as good as fool's gold, if for no other reason than it is a terminal action.

The main thing PH has going for it over FG is TR/KC.  In the right instances, PH will be oodles better.  On average, FG will be better.  And that's reflected in the cost.

That's not a main thing. It's 2 cards. Two cards in 200. Yeah, PH has a higher ceiling than FG, but it's going to be relevant far less often.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: CaptainNevada on August 07, 2012, 01:33:10 am
No amount of speculation about the cards is a substitute for actual play.  Hidden power comes out (Menagerie, Harvest, Hunting Party) and hidden weakness comes out (Jester, Saboteur). 

Played three games tonight with the new cards. All 2p.

My conclusions:

1- if poor house is in play in a province game, look very carefully. To make it work you need to discard and get extra actions and get draw to reliably have two in hand. If you can do it you can rush provinces pretty fast. But it dies too. Just like fg, after a few provinces getting two in hand becomes pretty difficult.

2- sage is awesome. It's power is in NOT getting silvers or other 3/4$ cards. And then using it to spam $5 cards. We played a game with festivals. At 50/50 festivals/safes you were effectively getting a $5 cards for $3. Very powerful on a 5/2 opening where you can ignore silvers altogether.
Sage starts to breakdown when you green - when it becomes a great trashing target (which makes Sense in this expansion...)

3- grave robbers was a trap card when we played. Even with a lot of Trashers it did not do very well. There are obviously going to be times when it works, but I think it will take a while to find them. Or maybe it just works well with a lot of da cards?

Fun games though. Amazing how sub-optimally one plays when there are flashy new cards in front of you...

Ed
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ConMan on August 07, 2012, 02:03:37 am
Hmm. Another combo of minimal utility - Graverobber/Highway/Peddler in Colony games.

Also, with the introduction of Graverobber, we might have to rethink the "Feast isn't an engine card so much as an engine enabler" blanket statement. Graverobber/Feast/Duke? Probably too slow most of the time, but I'm sure there'll be cases where it isn't (would Village or Farming Village help?)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 07, 2012, 02:13:47 am
Poor House may also be a nice opener with Ambassador instead of the default double Ambassador.

Now returning those Coppers on a A-CCC-E split doesn't hurt so much anymore and indeed, returning 2 Coppers may even be better than 2 Estates with Poor House. And your opponent may have PH also which makes the Coppers hurt more.

Amb - PH will be interesting perhaps.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ftl on August 07, 2012, 02:50:32 am
I'd say it's the other way around. You open Amb/Amb, secure in the knowledge that you WILL be able to pick up a source of cash on your next shuffle. On the hand when  you get Amb/CCC/E, you can safely return CC and buy PH.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 07, 2012, 03:20:55 am
I'd say it's the other way around. You open Amb/Amb, secure in the knowledge that you WILL be able to pick up a source of cash on your next shuffle. On the hand when  you get Amb/CCC/E, you can safely return CC and buy PH.
Ah that's right, PH is so cheap you can get it with a poor Amb deck anyway, not really necessary to open.
Still I thought it would be a nice combo since Amb decks who have won the tennis war still need a couple of turns to transition into their engine. PH may speed this up possibly.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 07, 2012, 03:38:41 am
Interesting. So, you want to return copper and keep those estates. lol Probably not really, but still.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 07, 2012, 05:22:38 am
Interesting. So, you want to return copper and keep those estates. lol Probably not really, but still.
Well, there are more starting Coppers in your deck than Estates, so you're more likely able to return 2 Coppers than 2 Estates in the beginning. There is another topic asking: What would you do on A-CCC-E? The consensus is 2 Coppers anyway it seems, but a card like PH gives even more incentive to go for the Coppers.

Once the Coppers are gone, you'll have a smaller deck and an easier time bouncing Estates.
The Ambassador war is a fine balance which you need to get in your favor.

I could see a dream deck with Crossroads, 2 Ambassadors and PH: All cards cost less than $3, so they're easy to get with your empty wallet.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 07, 2012, 07:21:42 am
Best Dominion Lists 2013 Prediction:

Graverobber $5 #36 out of 49
Sage $3 #12 out of 27
Poor House <$2 #11 out of #17

1.5 hours left to the next previews?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 07, 2012, 07:29:07 am
I would rate Sage a bit higher, partly because everybody loves cantrips and because Dark Ages is supposed to be combo/engine heaven.

And Poor House is definitely the best < $2 although PH isn't strictly better than Copper, but surely better than Curse.
If you wouldn't need that silly Tournament, Followers would have been the best < $2.

As far as <= $2 is concerned, I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Qvist on August 07, 2012, 07:33:44 am
Yes, it should read $2- or <=$2, my bad.

I'm still not convinced by Sage. With a strong terminal (Sea Hag), this is great in turn 3 and 4, but from about turn 5 on I rather have a Scheme.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 07:55:51 am
About an hour left!

Also, I'm thinking that if these cards are any indication, there are going to be a lot of cards that specify exact costs or ranges of costs, which is going to make Highway a lot more powerful and a lot more relevant and a lot more strategic.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 07, 2012, 08:12:54 am
So while I agree with the statement that we don't really know how strong the cards are going to be without playing them, I also don't think 'I played a few games with my friends and NOW I know how strong they are' is accurate either (not that anyone is actually saying that). That will give you a better idea, but for instance, it was a handful of iso games before IGG's power really began to dawn on me, almost at all.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: WanderingWinder on August 07, 2012, 08:16:11 am
Sage/CH should be simulatable/testable decently easily though. Buy a CH or two ASAP, getting coppers until you can, otherwise (no silvers, and no sages yet, because you need to be able to grab that CH). Once you have a CH, prefer sage to copper, but get 1-2 more CHs when possible, and coppers when you can't get sage. At this point, buy provinces when you can.
I am guessing that this will be... maybe infinitesimally better than BM? Maybe you should still get a single silver, and maybe you should still get golds. I don't know.

Edit: probably at least gives you something with hamlet. Eh, it's a 3-card out o 200 combo, but it is something.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 08:25:15 am
Sage/CH should be simulatable/testable decently easily though. Buy a CH or two ASAP, getting coppers until you can, otherwise (no silvers, and no sages yet, because you need to be able to grab that CH). Once you have a CH, prefer sage to copper, but get 1-2 more CHs when possible, and coppers when you can't get sage. At this point, buy provinces when you can.
I am guessing that this will be... maybe infinitesimally better than BM? Maybe you should still get a single silver, and maybe you should still get golds. I don't know.

Like I've been saying for every CH strat mentioned ever...

...still needs +Buy.

Though I'll admit this seems a lot more viable than HP/CH (which I tried once - got lots of money, but WITHOUT +BUY my opponent won the Province race), and actually goes pretty far in making CH maybe not be a sucky card.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Davio on August 07, 2012, 08:27:29 am
About an hour left!

Also, I'm thinking that if these cards are any indication, there are going to be a lot of cards that specify exact costs or ranges of costs, which is going to make Highway a lot more powerful and a lot more relevant and a lot more strategic.
Still all the Alchemy cards sit crying in their little corner.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 08:32:17 am
About an hour left!

Also, I'm thinking that if these cards are any indication, there are going to be a lot of cards that specify exact costs or ranges of costs, which is going to make Highway a lot more powerful and a lot more relevant and a lot more strategic.
Still all the Alchemy cards sit crying in their little corner.

Well, you can "Expand" them with Graverobber, if not actually...  rob them from their grave...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber/Poor House/Sage
Post by: Mister Alex on August 07, 2012, 08:48:07 am
About an hour left!

Also, I'm thinking that if these cards are any indication, there are going to be a lot of cards that specify exact costs or ranges of costs, which is going to make Highway a lot more powerful and a lot more relevant and a lot more strategic.
Still all the Alchemy cards sit crying in their little corner.
That's a funny mental image with Golem.

BTW, could we amend the name of this thread to list the 3 cards (and continue going forward)?  After a few threads I'll probably forget which cards are in which.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: ashersky on August 07, 2012, 09:05:19 am
About an hour left!

Dunno...it's 5 minutes after and still no preview...can't...take it...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Tdog on August 07, 2012, 09:05:54 am
About an hour left!

Dunno...it's 5 minutes after and still no preview...can't...take it...
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/838471/previews-2-feodum-cultist-ruined-market
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Schneau on August 07, 2012, 10:00:04 am
Graverobber will get stronger the more of these "When you trash this, ____" there are in DA.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 07, 2012, 10:50:31 am
So is Mint/PH now "the other good Mint opening"?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 11:04:41 am
So is Mint/PH now "the other good Mint opening"?

Yes.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: Grujah on August 07, 2012, 11:06:40 am
Is it? but what you gonna buy with it? Unless you got Villages, how do you make good use if "always 4" hands?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: zahlman on August 07, 2012, 11:52:17 am
Well, Poor House creates an interesting nombo with Upgrade—not only can you not trash your starting Coppers, but your deck would gain a terminal money that is worse for you having Coppers left.
Or is it a combo- trash all your coppers, making every poor house worth 4?

You still need +Actions, and Upgrade is slow for trashing (it's ordinarily nicer for being able to go Estate->Silver and continue with your turn).

However, I think that opening Remake/FV, with the plan of Remaking Estate->FV and Copper->Poor House, should be viable.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: clb on August 07, 2012, 02:51:05 pm
Interesting. So, you want to return copper and keep those estates. lol Probably not really, but still.
Well, there are more starting Coppers in your deck than Estates, so you're more likely able to return 2 Coppers than 2 Estates in the beginning. There is another topic asking: What would you do on A-CCC-E? The consensus is 2 Coppers anyway it seems, but a card like PH gives even more incentive to go for the Coppers.


Maybe the new question is, in an Amb/PH deck, with a hand of Amb-C-E-E-X, do you return the copper to help out with your poor house strategy, or the estates, to faster thin the deck and allow for more double-copper returns?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: ftl on August 07, 2012, 02:53:12 pm
Estates.

Copper does NOT hurt poorhouse until you're playing multiples at a time.

(If you play PH with no coppers in hand, you get 4 coins from it. If you play ph with one copper in hand, you get 3 coins from the ph and one from the copper for a total of four. And so on and so forth - if you're playing a single ph in a turn, you get $4 regardless of the number of coppers in your hand (as long as it's below 5)). And to get double-PH turns you probably want to get rid of your starting estates.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 02:56:08 pm
Estates.

Copper does NOT hurt poorhouse until you're playing multiples at a time.

(If you play PH with no coppers in hand, you get 4 coins from it. If you play ph with one copper in hand, you get 3 coins from the ph and one from the copper for a total of four. And so on and so forth - if you're playing a single ph in a turn, you get $4 regardless of the number of coppers in your hand (as long as it's below 5)).

This seems to make thematic sense - the Poor House gives to the poor - it evens out the social inequality to make sure you have at least $4.  So if you have nothing, the Poor House gives you $4.  If you have two Coppers, well, the Poor House gives you $2.  If you've got five Coppers, well, you definitely don't need anything, and for good measure, we're taking the revenue you got from your Market.  So there.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: ftl on August 07, 2012, 03:06:22 pm
And a Poor House deck is some rich bastard gaming the system, shuffling all his income to non-monetary assets and then proving his "poverty" to get handouts from all the poorhouses around.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: Tdog on August 07, 2012, 03:13:52 pm
The easiest way to game the system is to set up a conspiracy ...
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 03:14:50 pm
The easiest way to game the system is to set up a conspiracy ...

Or hide it all in your Secret Chamber.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: DWetzel on August 07, 2012, 03:22:55 pm
The easiest way to game the system is to set up a conspiracy ...

Or hide it all in your Secret Chamber.

Just don't play at the airport.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 03:25:56 pm
The easiest way to game the system is to set up a conspiracy ...

Or hide it all in your Secret Chamber.

Just don't play at the airport.

Mattress
Action - $3

When you play this, put any number of Treasure cards from your hand on this card.  Return them to your hand at any time this turn, or discard them at the end of this turn.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: zahlman on August 07, 2012, 03:52:13 pm
Mattress
Action - $3

When you play this, put any number of Treasure cards from your hand on this card.  Return them to your hand at any time this turn, or discard them at the end of this turn.

Tactician would also love this.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1
Post by: rinkworks on August 07, 2012, 03:56:33 pm
Is it? but what you gonna buy with it? Unless you got Villages, how do you make good use if "always 4" hands?

Mint-PH isn't self-sufficient like Mint-FG is, but I was thinking that if the board is right for PH, then Mint-PH is probably a terrific way to ramp up such a deck.  The Mint perhaps becomes useless the instant you gain it, of course, but thereafter the PH gives you a reliable $4 which you can use to ramp up.  If there are Villages, you can use PH to get those Villages, possibly getting another PH on a turn where you don't have your original one.  You can even buy Silvers with your PH money without detriment, as PH+Silver is a $5 hand minimum, with which you can buy your Festivals, Torturers, Libraries, or whatever.

It just seems like a neat way to slingshot into whatever kind of deck you're really interested in.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: jotheonah on August 07, 2012, 04:12:21 pm
THen later on trash the mint into a Province with Graverobber
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: blueblimp on August 07, 2012, 04:15:49 pm
If you want a PH deck, then Mint/Chapel is a good opening. Can't trash much faster than that.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: verikt on August 07, 2012, 06:53:26 pm
Graverobber means you can take any card any player trashed? Is it removed from the trash then? Or can another player still get it with graverobber. Apprentice peddler grave robber or app hoard grave robber just became even more obscene. If you can take any card trashed by any player, just buy apprentice, let him trash the good cards and grave rob them
Poorhouse crossroads baron seems good too. (with minimal trashing)
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: eHalcyon on August 07, 2012, 06:57:11 pm
Graverobber means you can take any card any player trashed? Is it removed from the trash then? Or can another player still get it with graverobber. Apprentice peddler grave robber or app hoard grave robber just became even more obscene. If you can take any card trashed by any player, just buy apprentice, let him trash the good cards and grave rob them

You can't take Peddler without Highway, Peddler, Bridge, or BM+Quarry.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: rinkworks on August 07, 2012, 11:38:47 pm
Played a game with Sage and Minion.  Fun!  I opened Sage/Monument, picked up a couple Silvers, but otherwise bought Sages with $3-$4 and Minions with $5+ until the stack was gone.  The Sages found Silver or Monument to help me buy Minions faster and cycled to get those Minions in my hand faster.  Then when the pile was gone and I was ready to actually use the Minion engine, it turned out to be pretty sweet how Sages would skip over Coppers and Estates to pull additional Minions into my hand.  They'd hit Silver or the Monument sometimes, but this was almost never a problem, as more often than not finding an extra $2 got me to the $8 threshold.  If not, I'd just use a Minion already in hand to cycle.

The result was that the Sages increased the effective density of my Minions, which in turn increased their effectiveness overall.  Snapping up Provinces was easy after that.  But what I really appreciated was that it made the Minion stack fun to play.  Minions on their own are pretty mechanical, but this made me think a little more about how to play the hands out.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on August 07, 2012, 11:46:19 pm
Graverobber means you can take any card any player trashed? Is it removed from the trash then? Or can another player still get it with graverobber. Apprentice peddler grave robber or app hoard grave robber just became even more obscene. If you can take any card trashed by any player, just buy apprentice, let him trash the good cards and grave rob them

You can't take Peddler without Highway, Peddler, Bridge, or BM+Quarry.

Graverobber robs graves during your Action phase.  Peddler's cost drop only happens in your Buy phase.  You remembered the little cheat of Black Market to get Quarry into play, though.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: eHalcyon on August 07, 2012, 11:57:38 pm
Graverobber means you can take any card any player trashed? Is it removed from the trash then? Or can another player still get it with graverobber. Apprentice peddler grave robber or app hoard grave robber just became even more obscene. If you can take any card trashed by any player, just buy apprentice, let him trash the good cards and grave rob them

You can't take Peddler without Highway, Peddler, Bridge, or BM+Quarry.

Graverobber robs graves during your Action phase.  Peddler's cost drop only happens in your Buy phase.  You remembered the little cheat of Black Market to get Quarry into play, though.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Highway and Bridge.  And when I wrote Peddler the second time, I meant to write Princess. :P
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: clb on August 08, 2012, 08:38:31 am
A random thought occurred to me overnight. For the poor-man's province rush (trashing, poorhouse, some card draw, sifting, etc all at <=3) that has been mentioned on this thread, it would seem, that saboteur becomes devastating against that deck. It will be guaranteed to hit either a province or the duchy from the last saboteur strike.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: Kuildeous on August 08, 2012, 08:46:31 am
Graverobber means you can take any card any player trashed? Is it removed from the trash then? Or can another player still get it with graverobber. Apprentice peddler grave robber or app hoard grave robber just became even more obscene. If you can take any card trashed by any player, just buy apprentice, let him trash the good cards and grave rob them

You can't take Peddler without Highway, Peddler, Bridge, or BM+Quarry.

Graverobber robs graves during your Action phase.  Peddler's cost drop only happens in your Buy phase.  You remembered the little cheat of Black Market to get Quarry into play, though.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned Highway and Bridge.  And when I wrote Peddler the second time, I meant to write Princess. :P

And here I was just about to congratulate you on a fine tautology.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on August 08, 2012, 09:46:41 am
A random thought occurred to me overnight. For the poor-man's province rush (trashing, poorhouse, some card draw, sifting, etc all at <=3) that has been mentioned on this thread, it would seem, that saboteur becomes devastating against that deck. It will be guaranteed to hit either a province or the duchy from the last saboteur strike.

I hope you realize what that looks like.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: Toskk on August 09, 2012, 06:33:09 pm
*bleh* Is it just me, or is Graverobber a *total* trap card.  >:( I've been testing it fairly extensively, and I'm pretty sure I have lost almost every game I've gone for it in now. I'm strongly suspecting that a sim will find that BM + Graverobber loses to BM, for one. It really seems the card requires a very specific deck: a high density of high-value action cards that you both want in your deck *and* want to trash.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: eHalcyon on August 09, 2012, 06:35:25 pm
*bleh* Is it just me, or is Graverobber a *total* trap card.  >:( I've been testing it fairly extensively, and I'm pretty sure I have lost almost every game I've gone for it in now. I'm strongly suspecting that a sim will find that BM + Graverobber loses to BM, for one. It really seems the card requires a very specific deck: a high density of high-value action cards that you both want in your deck *and* want to trash.

Wait for the rest of DA.

But I think it's pretty obvious that Graverobber is not a BM card.  There won't be much of anything in the trash for you to grab, and you also won't have any Action cards to expand.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: ftl on August 09, 2012, 07:06:13 pm
*bleh* Is it just me, or is Graverobber a *total* trap card.  >:( I've been testing it fairly extensively, and I'm pretty sure I have lost almost every game I've gone for it in now. I'm strongly suspecting that a sim will find that BM + Graverobber loses to BM, for one. It really seems the card requires a very specific deck: a high density of high-value action cards that you both want in your deck *and* want to trash.

Yeah. Graverobber seems like it is only useful when there are good things in the trash to fish out.

Useful when Dark Ages cards put lots of good stuff in the trash. Potentially useful when you have a consistent engine to draw it, use it to Expand something, and then get that something back immediately. A serious trap in BM+X.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: LittleFish on January 18, 2019, 04:16:40 pm
This is the first of several previews by Donald X. Vaccarino, introducing the next Dominion expansion: Dark Ages.

(http://dominionstrategy.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/dapreview1.png?w=640&h=326)

There comes a time in every man’s life when he must preview Dark Ages cards. On second thought maybe that’s not as universal as I was thinking. Anyway, metaphorically, there comes a time etc. And that time for me is now. Actually it was a few minutes ago, when you were reading the cards. I figured I’d just let you keep reading though. Have your fun. I can wait. Okay then.

Dark Ages has several themes and mini-themes. It’s a big sprawling expansion. I am previewing three cards a day, that’s how big it is. It’s also the crazy combo expansion, and today’s cards demonstrate that without even trying.

Graverobber is the way to get things from the trash that you always knew I’d make eventually. What you didn’t know is that it would look like that. If you’re gonna take things from the trash, you have to make sure there are good things to get. Graverobber does this by rewarding you for trashing expensive actions – just the kind of thing you’ll want back later. And when you do take a card from the trash, it puts it on your deck, so you’ll draw it before the game is over. Of course if someone else has Graverobbers, maybe they’ll get that card first. It’s a competitive business in these troubled times.

Poor House says, build a deck with no money. Also a Village, no money and a Village. If you can’t trash your money, at least discard it somehow. And it costs $1. Why even have a card that costs $1 – aren’t you usually going to be paying at least $2 for it? Well sure, but you know. Not always. Anyway it’s cool to have a card that costs $1, I don’t know what to tell you.

There’s a tendency to want to show off the most exotic cards, but I don’t want people to think the set will just be non-stop confusion. So I’m also showing off a simpler card, Sage. Dig for a card costing $3 or more, that’s all there is to it. It will turn into something good for a while; then eventually it will start reminding you about those Provinces you bought. And of course sometimes a Sage just wants you to talk to another Sage.
Why didn't Donald X. post this?
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: Donald X. on January 18, 2019, 09:20:07 pm
Why didn't Donald X. post this?
Probably theory just got to it first. At the time BGG was more the site.
Title: Re: Dark Ages Preview #1: Graverobber, Poor House, Sage
Post by: werothegreat on January 30, 2019, 11:41:50 am
I think the more pressing question is: why is this part of the forum a nest of matryoshka child boards, and not just all sub-boards of a "previews" board?