Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Tournaments and Events => Topic started by: theory on July 05, 2012, 09:16:19 am

Title: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: theory on July 05, 2012, 09:16:19 am
Currently, there are two methods of tracking information on Isotropic:

* The official point counter provides all players with a running count of their score.

* The unofficial card counter extension (for Chrome) provides the installer with a running count of everyone's deck contents.  An opponent can manually query the extension to receive the same running count that the installer has.  When installing the extension, the installer is provided the option of allowing his opponents to disable the extension at the start of a game.

How tournament organizers choose to regulate these two counters is of course up to their discretion.  But in your view, how should they do it? 
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: jsh357 on July 05, 2012, 09:29:41 am
I don't want to get involved in the mega debate, but I might as well post my stance: I'm against physical/automatic point/composition trackers of any kind as they are against the rules of Dominion.  Making judgment calls is a big part of the game to me, and something that separates great players from good ones.  I'm aware that someone can make a spreadsheet during a game if he wants to, and I understand why most online tournaments require the tracker for that reason, but the unofficial tracker goes much too far in my opinion.  Even if it is only offering a slight advantage, I don't care for it, and I am no longer accepting matches with people who use it anyway. (If they want to play that way, fine; I'm not gonna stop them) If I wanted to play against someone who knew everything, I'd play an AI. 
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: yudantaiteki on July 05, 2012, 09:32:01 am
Simple point counter: I don't care either way; I think it changes the strategy when you can see the score but I have fun playing with it that way too.

Point/card extension: Ban with extreme prejudice.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: timchen on July 05, 2012, 09:44:35 am
In general, what the tournament director likes; state clearly enough and just DQ those who won't listen.

On the other hand, I personally prefer the unofficial card counter allowed. I am not too interested in the memory department. In 2p games it just saves you time and energy as if the game is important you would track those things anyway. In 3p or 4p games it becomes quite a bit harder to track all things, but surprisingly, it usually matters even less. In my experience in a competitive match one pretty much just gets whatever points he can get. Now one can argue if it matters even less why not left it disabled, sure I don't mind. But I don't like people screaming at these point counters, saying it violates the rule in some fundamental way or something like point count is different from card count, or something similarly ridiculous. Seriously, there is nothing morally or ethically wrong to allow the use of point/card counter in a tournament. 

And then there is this fairness issue. I think using or banning the counter doesn't change much. If one wishes to cheat he can have the simulator at hand, have people to discuss with, or even find other players to play for him. Nothing much can be done, and if you play really great that shouldn't matter either. I'll say it seems to me that only losers are afraid of cheaters.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: shark_bait on July 05, 2012, 09:48:46 am
From a Tournament Organizer perspective - This doesn't matter, just so long as they are clear on what they are using and all the participants are fine with what the format is.

From a Tournament Player perspective - Knowledge of your deck is part of the game.  Ergo, I will not be participating in any tournaments that promote the use of an external memory aid.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: RisingJaguar on July 05, 2012, 09:49:27 am
When I play casually, I love playing point counter as it allows me to be multi-tasking.  I can check the score when I please and thus not need to focus nearly as hard.  It just makes it easier and allows people to make more optimal decisions.  I also do like this for tournament standards because it allows me to focus on strategy/deck building instead.  I find it hard for myself to count 10 unique cards in my deck at times, I don't want to waste time counting both player's VP. 

Now with this whole thing, I totally understand that others prefer it off.  I actually thought the current rules of "This is how it should be unless you can agree on it otherwise" was pretty clear. 

PCE, no thank you.  I feel there is a big difference between knowing the score to make optimal decisions and knowing both deck's composition and making optimal decisions.  HOWEVER, I would say this would be a great tool for any spectators.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Captain_Frisk on July 05, 2012, 09:58:08 am
I think this might need a poll.

I'm in favor of anything:

- Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant
- Starting hands identical is a variant
- Veto mode is a variant
- Iso tracker is a variant
- Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.
- Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

As long as it's agreed to in advance - I'm perfectly happy playing with any subset of the above.

Personally, I think that playing with all of the above is the best test of pure dominion skill (making the best purchasing / play decisions based on all available information), with a reasonable amount of randomness removed (mountebank / chapel I'm looking at you!) The point trackers reduce bad decisions based on inability / unwillingness to memorize (which result in higher level play).  If I was going to play dominion in a face to face tournament today - you can bet that I would be memorizing everyone's decks.  Whether you you consider the tracking of all available information (points, cards in deck, etc. ) to be part of dominion skill that should be rewarded in tournament play is a question for the tournament organizer. 

Of course - when you're playing with a full deck tracker - you aren't playing Dominion.  You're playing Advanced Dominion.   (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Chess for a chess analogue)

That said - for those who are opposed to the PCE because its against the rules as written in the rulebook - then so are identical starting hands and rotating of start player.  By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: theory on July 05, 2012, 10:00:59 am
I considered putting in a poll.  But it'd be difficult to arrive at a phrasing that would satisfy everyone, and it would also encourage opinions without reasoning.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: RisingJaguar on July 05, 2012, 10:10:18 am
That said - for those who are opposed to the PCE because its against the rules as written in the rulebook - then so are identical starting hands and rotating of start player.  By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.
I know you are talking to those that still oppose it.  However if you are talking to the opposers in the former thread, I am more in the camp that if everyone agrees to it (I personally wouldn't really care too much as long as its fair on both sides).  Thus if PCE was written in the tournament rules or my opponent was insistent on it, then sure.

However the other tools that you mention aim to balance the game out.  They also effect both players equally.  I mean veto mode... sure it might lean to one or the other (i'm not sure), but I think the majority are leaning towards random kingdoms too. 

From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: timchen on July 05, 2012, 10:14:13 am
Quote
From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: RisingJaguar on July 05, 2012, 10:17:10 am
Quote
From how I understand PCE, I thought they were the same too until I saw the screenshot.  (I previously thought you needed to type !status blah blah blah).  PCE seems to help one player more (it is constantly up AND it looks really convenient to read) than the other which is why I am hesistant and probably why others would take a stand against it.

How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.
While we are at that... Where do we find the extension?  I just saw this sort of popping up in my games and that was that. 
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: timchen on July 05, 2012, 10:26:43 am
in the chrome web store. Just google "dominion point counter". Make sure you are using google chrome as your browser.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 05, 2012, 10:27:39 am
How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

- people playing at work or on public machines
- people playing on tablets
- people not willing to use chrome or download the extension
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: DStu on July 05, 2012, 10:32:11 am
I also don't like forcing players into browsers/addons, but

- people playing on tablets

https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/mobile/

Edit: English version.
PS: Android 4.0 required? Is that true? Googles browser didn't ran on android before 4.0?
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 05, 2012, 10:37:43 am
By this argument - we should have all future online qualifiers done via google hangout.
This is not a bad idea. This would be the ideal way to hold an online qualifier to an IRL tournament, because you can enforce very strict rules about play aids (including pen & paper).

On the original question, I like playing with PCE. But a reasonable compromise is to prohibit it and allow official point counter only.

It'd be possible to make a "tournament mode" for the PCE that has some limited subset of functionality. For example, it could only display points, but they would be current points and not beginning-of-turn points. Or it could track deck contents, but only show them by "!details". Basically trimming out whatever you don't like. This would be really, really easy to implement if it's decided exactly what the mode should do.

For a tournament with any sort of prize, I'd also suggest explicitly allowing any sort of manual play aid: pen & paper, spreadsheet, whatever. One reason is enforceability, because when there's a prize present, people will be tempted to use these things. The other is that these methods require effort and are much more limited than the PCE. (I don't believe the enforceability argument applies to the PCE, because a PCE-ban is enforceable by looking at the message it prints when it starts.)
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 05, 2012, 10:41:06 am
I don't think forcing people to use it makes much sense. If you make it clear that it is going to be allowed, I don't see why people can't choose to play without it, knowing they'll be at a disadvantage, without needing to make that against the rules.

I don't think that "that's the way things are in the rulebook" is a very convincing argument here, where we're discussing what the rules should be. By definition, we're discussing what SHOULD be in the rulebook, and in such discussions, what happens to be there at the moment has very little pull.

In general, it's not like we're going to come to some kind of consensus here. What is important is that people understand the rules they agree to when they enter a tournament, which will help them make informed decisions about which tournaments to enter. And so long as you have to play by the rules you agree to when entering, there shouldn't be any problems.

The only real point I can see for threads like these are: 1) for a particular tournament, you might ask people; however, you're almost certainly going to get disagreement, and whoever is running the thing is just going to have to make a call going in, either way. Which leads us to the more important reason: 2) for all those people who thin that online dominion ought to have some different ruleset than just the dominion rules, they need to codify this different ruleset. I mean, you can do this tournament by tournament, but it's a lot easier (and probably much better) to just have a list of rules that you can say: here, THESE apply. Because for any kind of competition like this, you need a codified set of rules.



Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 05, 2012, 10:42:14 am
I also don't like forcing players into browsers/addons, but

- people playing on tablets

https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/browser/mobile/

Edit: English version.
PS: Android 4.0 required? Is that true? Googles browser didn't ran on android before 4.0?
Unfortunately, the mobile version doesn't support extensions: (https://developers.google.com/chrome/mobile/docs/faq)
Quote
Chrome apps and extensions are currently not supported on Chrome for Android. We have no plans to announce at this time.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: DStu on July 05, 2012, 10:44:33 am
Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.
But I hope it's not up to the discretion of the organizer how to handle this...

Edit:
Quote
Unfortunately, the mobile version doesn't support extensions:
Next tournament require: Play on tablet. Who cares for reordering of cards...
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 05, 2012, 10:48:34 am
Oh, also, in the OP, you neglect to include the very important option of relying on your memory.
But I hope it's not up to the discretion of the organizer how to handle this...
Well, I mean, only this and nothing else is an option. But more, it is another beyond the recognized "two methods of tracking information on Isotropic"
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 05, 2012, 10:49:30 am
Also, I feel one way of deciding should be what your tournament is intended to accomplish. Most tournaments here are for fun only (no prize), and in that case I feel the rules should be fairly permissive, to allow players to play how they enjoy most, since after all it doesn't really matter. On the other hand, if you're trying to measure IRL Dominion skill as accurately as possible, it's better to ban everything.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 05, 2012, 10:51:36 am
The only real point I can see for threads like these are...

while it would be nice to get to some consensus, i think theory was more interested in seeing a more focused discussion from the full community.  i think his post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3246.425) to close out the previous thread hints at this. the previous thread was all over the place, and i think people were talking past each other for much of it. additionally, the very tense nature of the thread and rapid posting would discourage many from voicing any opinion at all.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: popsofctown on July 05, 2012, 11:09:21 am
How about requiring that the PCE to be installed? I mean, using chrome and setting up an extension is not going to kill your computer. And if you choose not to do so, you are willing to accept that the information will be more accessible to the PCE user.

- people playing at work or on public machines
- people playing on tablets
- people not willing to use chrome or download the extension
I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

Now for playing a tablet game for an automatch game in iso, sure, just hit !disable so we can play a casual game on even footing.  If the tournament isn't worth it to you to get off the couch and go over to your desktop I'm confused.



I am totally and utterly befuddled by people who think drheld's point tracker is "not dominion" and that iso point tracking "is dominion".  The first thing I do when I know the iso point tracker is on is redirect brain cells to remembering the current Fool Gold split instead.  Saying you'd remember it anyway is silly.  I could argue that the card contents component of drheld's addon is something I'd just remember anyway - if you use the techniques described in "Moonwalking with Einstein" and label the cards in the kingdom by number, you could remember the contents of your deck all the time.  It'd just be a pain.  (the guy remembers like 3 decks of standard playing cards or something).

I favor drheld's point tracker and getting it to be reasonably accessible as a standard, but if we're going to say that memory is an important part of Dominion, then ALL point tracking should be off.  Allowing a memory aid that suits your lazy-boy-fairgrounds but not my Embargo-what-he-doesn't-have-enough-of is preferential and unfair.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 05, 2012, 11:24:11 am
I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

- not everyone has the privilege of having both a tablet and a desktop/laptop.
- people playing on a family or friend's device might not have the option to download software. it could be considered rude to ask a friend to add software to their device, and my parents did not allow me to download alternate browsers.
- you did not address people playing on public shared machines where you simply can't add browser/extensions.

i'll play in a tournament either way, the extension doesn't bother me that much. but i do not think you will win many to a pro-card/point/etc. counting viewpoint by advocating that all players should be required to use an extension.  you would likely do better to advocate the reasons for the information itself, or perhaps for soliciting dougz or funsockets to implement a similar option so that the information is equally available without outside influence.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 05, 2012, 12:29:27 pm
- Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant
- Starting hands identical is a variant
- Veto mode is a variant
- Iso tracker is a variant
- Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.
- Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

Playing on Isotropic is an unavoidable variant if we all want to play together. Veto mode is not a variant.

Other than those two points, all I have to say on this subject is that I just don't enter tournaments that force me to play with variants I don't want to play. It's pretty simple.

I also think it would be great if DXV could just post somewhere something like "The official rules for playing Dominion online are the same as the official rules for playing Dominion IRL, with the following adjustments..." and then tournaments can just link to that post and say "play by these rules, with the following adjustments...". Then anything not explicitly covered in either list of adjustments can be called a variant and banned as per DXV's view that variants are cheating unless all players agree. I don't think anyone would argue that DXV doesn't get to make the rules for online Dominion.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: popsofctown on July 05, 2012, 01:12:17 pm
I think it's not crazy to say "hey, this is a tournament, this is an important game, why don't you play on your home machine?"  Playing at work is pretty inappropriate for tournament play, tablets don't even play Cartographer correctly from what I hear so that's already disadvantaging yourself, and for people "unwilling to use Chrome", I'm sure if there was consensus from the community that drheld style point tracking is the way to go for the tournament environment, someone would write a convenient Mozilla add-on and IE widget.  I don't think browsers are going to be a breaking point.

- not everyone has the privilege of having both a tablet and a desktop/laptop.
- people playing on a family or friend's device might not have the option to download software. it could be considered rude to ask a friend to add software to their device, and my parents did not allow me to download alternate browsers.
- you did not address people playing on public shared machines where you simply can't add browser/extensions.

i'll play in a tournament either way, the extension doesn't bother me that much. but i do not think you will win many to a pro-card/point/etc. counting viewpoint by advocating that all players should be required to use an extension.  you would likely do better to advocate the reasons for the information itself, or perhaps for soliciting dougz or funsockets to implement a similar option so that the information is equally available without outside influence.
I seem to have a different perception of how the populace is playing isotropic than you do.  You may be right.  I still don't think tablets count because Cartographer doesn't work on tablets so those players are already playing with a hand behind their back, they already cannot truly compete.  But if lots of people share computers and stuff, yeah maybe.

You could always add an option to the extension to disable the user friendly stuff, cutting both players down to using only !details.  So if you're playing someone with chrome and you don't have chrome, you both use !details and nothing else.  If both have the addon, both can use the cuddly interface.  If neither have the add-on, well, they can take paper notes or just use the normal tracker or what have you.

I mean, I'm just blowing smoke really since I'm pretty sure autocount is unpopular enough it will never be a standard.  But I think practically speaking there is a solution to standardize it and make it work.  It's a forkable add-on, and it generates text input that has lots of possibilities too.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 05, 2012, 01:22:12 pm
I seem to have a different perception of how the populace is playing isotropic than you do.  You may be right.  I still don't think tablets count because Cartographer doesn't work on tablets so those players are already playing with a hand behind their back, they already cannot truly compete.  But if lots of people share computers and stuff, yeah maybe.

no, i think we both make similar assumptions about how the general population plays on isotropic. but as long as their are legitimate reasons why people will be unwilling or unable to use the extension (aside from any and all game related issues) i just do not see requiring everyone to use the extension as a viable solution.

as i said before, turn your efforts to building a case to present to doug and funsockets.  requiring use of the extension just doesn't seem to make sense, especially when a sizable portion of our population seems to have issue with it in the first place.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Captain_Frisk on July 05, 2012, 01:29:16 pm
Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Insomniac on July 05, 2012, 03:26:20 pm
Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.

Did I miss veto mode being in the rules somewhere?  :o
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 05, 2012, 03:31:15 pm
Veto mode is not a variant.

Sorry - this is true. 

Veto mode vs. full random vs. starting player chooses the table are all equally legal methods of play.  Of course the tournament should specify how the tables are constructed - and all players should abide by the tournament rules.

Did I miss veto mode being in the rules somewhere?  :o
The rules say you can pick your kingdom however you want.
Veto is a way.
Ergo, it's fine.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Kirian on July 05, 2012, 03:34:19 pm
Playing on isotropic is a dominion variant

I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.  Looking at the official rules, I find this:

"The player places any cards that are in his play area... and any cards remaining in his hand onto his Discard pile."

There's actually no mention of placing the cards in hand on top of the cards in play.  Perhaps it was clarified in a later rulebook, or DXV has clarified elsewhere?  I'm uncertain.  If this isn't technically a rule, then the order of discards wouldn't matter, and you can see in the log what cards were played last turn, which would be legal for your opponent to put on top of the discard.

Quote
Starting hands identical is a variant

Indeed.  It's common in online tournaments, but seems extremely unlikely in face-to-face tournament play.

Quote
Veto mode is a variant

As you've already noted, this is wrong, but I thought I'd provide the quote from the official rules for context:

"In later games, players can choose the 10 Kingdom cards using any method they agree on."

Quote
Iso tracker is a variant
Dr. Held's Point Tracker is a variant.

Without a doubt.

Quote
Rotating starting position is also a variant from the official rules.

Yes, though it's really easy to argue that, in a tournament setting, whether online or face-to-face, it should be at the least a necessary variant.  In a setting where players don't play a series of games against one another--instead playing games with multiple groups, which will be common in face-to-face tournaments--having the tournament director determine seating order at each table isn't a variant.

----

Personally, I think it's up to the tournament director to make the rules and set them in stone at the start of the tournament.  If I don't like the rules, I don't have to participate.  As a TD, I intend in the future to use the following, and for the following reasons:

(1) In one series, the players may change individual game rules in any way they all agree to.  If players cannot agree on a particular point, default rules below automatically
---- It would be truly unenforceable not to do so if all players agree, because who's going to complain?  These discussions need to happen at time of play, however, so that if there is a disagreement and a player refuses to abide by the default, screenshots can be taken and someone can be disqualified.
(2) Rules are default Dominion rules unless otherwise specified below.  This means neither the isotropic nor the drheld point counter is to be used, and starting hands are not identical, except as in Rule 1.
---- This is as close as one can get on Isotropic to the official rules.  I'll make this the default despite previous arguments from me that identical starting hands ought to be a standard variant in tournament play.
(3) Seats will rotate in a manner determined by the TD, in such a manner as to provide maximum fairness for a competitive series.
---- This is necessary as a tournament variant, and the Dominion rules do not specify any tournament rules.  The official seat-change rules are quite obviously intended for casual play.  Granted, since I'll never run anything other than a 2P tournament online, this shouldn't matter too much here, as that order is semi-trivial.  I've discussed a tennis-like method in another thread, and in my next tournament I will see how the participants feel about such a method, but other wise the official rules can be followed with only the most minor of detriments.
(4) Other point and card counting methods or memory aids are explicitly prohibited, other than your brain and your mouth.
---- Yes, it's unenforceable.  That doesn't make it an unreasonable rule.  Yes, it expects goodwill from all players.  Personal ethics ought to trump desire to win a tournament.  If it doesn't for you, well, frankly, in the end, cheaters never prosper.  That's on your conscience if you can't follow a simple rule.  Quite obviously thinking is important, and in an online tournament, speaking aloud only to oneself is not different.

But, of course, this is just for my tournaments.  Other TDs should certainly be welcome to use different settings, and players should be welcome to participate or not as they desire.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: WanderingWinder on July 05, 2012, 03:38:39 pm
All the images in the rule-book have the discard pile face-up, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 05, 2012, 04:03:34 pm
Visible discard pile makes a difference for times you would discard other than cleanup.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Davio on July 05, 2012, 04:19:13 pm
I think I've read something about concealing unplayed cards in the rulebook.

So you basically decide what the visible top card of your discard pile will be and slide everything under there.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: ShuffleLuck on July 05, 2012, 05:40:15 pm
I would like to second the sentiment that there should be some kind of codified standard for online tournaments, which tournament organizers can simply link to and say "we will use this", or "we will use this, with the following changes." The DS.com website seems like a natural place to host such a standard. Maybe we just call it the "DS.com online tournament ruleset.", and then other people will naturally link to it and use it.

My personal preference regarding point/card counters in tournaments on ISO is that the official ISO point tracker be required, pen and paper be allowed, and all other memory aids (including PCE) be disallowed. My reasoning is that I want a level playing field, balancing the official rules of dominion with the limits of what is enforceable. I also don't especially enjoy keeping all the cards in memory, so I find that having some kind of automated point counter is more fun and relaxing.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: DG on July 05, 2012, 05:49:57 pm
The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: O on July 05, 2012, 05:51:32 pm
The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Rabid on July 05, 2012, 06:05:01 pm
The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I can see augments for not allowing broadcasts of your games.
Even if I disagree.
But I have trouble seeing any reason not to allow a player to record themselves for personal use.

Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: O on July 05, 2012, 06:11:11 pm
The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I can see augments for not allowing broadcasts of your games.
Even if I disagree.
But I have trouble seeing any reason not to allow a player to record themselves for personal use.

Because they're recording a log of the game... before the game is even finished. So they could theoretically use it to gain an unfair advantage by playing back their recording to serve as a midgame gamelog.

Arguments just as valid as any argument relating to the PCE.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: popsofctown on July 05, 2012, 09:42:47 pm
The official points counter is on unless all players in match agree to play without it. All unofficial software that monitors deck contents,  kingdom information, or other game data should be prohibited under tournament rules. This would include unofficial pointer counters  but exclude video recordings or broadcasts as long as they were not used to gain information or advice during play.

There's always a rewind button. If PCE is disabled, upon request or not, I should still have the right to request nobody record my game with video.

I'm lost.  Why not just trust them not to rewind, the way you're trusting them not to use an invisible point tracker??
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 05, 2012, 10:04:20 pm
IMO, it's perfectly reasonable for tournament organizers to require participants to consent to video recordings of the games, because it's promotion for the tournament. It's not like the people themselves are even being video-recorded, just their gameplay.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: yudantaiteki on July 06, 2012, 12:03:42 am
Simple point counter: I don't care either way; I think it changes the strategy when you can see the score but I have fun playing with it that way too.

Point/card extension: Ban with extreme prejudice.

After seeing some of the discussion I want to explain my possibly-contradictory-seeming choices.

There are two reasons why I think the simple point counter is OK but the PCE is bad.  (1) The SPC is built into Isotropic; anyone who plays on Isotropic can use it, and it's not very hard to find out about its existence.  The PCE, on the other hand, requires a specific browser with a specific extension, and many people may not even know that it exists or what it does.  This is the most important reason for me.  (2) Keeping track of points is pretty easy to do yourself with pen and paper while you play, whereas keeping track of exact deck contents takes more effort that many, perhaps most, people will not bother with.

Having said that, people should feel free to make whatever tournament rules they want, provided they're up front about them.  I personally would not want to play in a PCE tournament, though.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: questioneer on July 06, 2012, 01:35:24 am
As and Organizer and a Player just get rid of the point/card counters altogether- play the game with your brain alone not a crutch.
 :)
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Personman on July 06, 2012, 01:49:21 am
I don't want to drag any of the drama from the locked thread into this one, and to that end I won't be posting in this thread more than once.

I just wanted to publicly say how awesome Donald's Mafia post was, and that if you haven't made it to page 18 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3246.msg60455#msg60455) of the other thread, you should go read it. It's really quite something. I laughed for a really long time.

I'd also like to thank samath for pointing out and appreciating game 4 (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201207/02/game-20120702-135602-322c4422.html) (video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL2BFB36360264C83C&v=4RnxqRey21Q&feature=player_detailpage#t=2733s) if you prefer) of the finals. I was really proud of that :D

I think you all know my opinions on the topic of this thread, so I won't restate them. I hope that despite my differences with many of you, I can continue to be an accepted and constructive member of this community in unrelated ways. I will certainly never do anything but absolutely toe the line in any future events (and I probably won't participate in any for quite a while anyway).
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: samath on July 06, 2012, 03:38:48 am
I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.

There are several other differences, actually:
Can anyone think of any more? Yeah they won't affect a lot of games, but sometimes there is a way you can take advantage of the extra information online.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Davio on July 06, 2012, 05:25:18 am
Well, to no surprise, online Dominion is much more different from offline Dominion than the purists would like to believe.

Also: Trader, even on playing Governor and dealing out a Silver it pauses for no reason other than the old Iso's "we want to follow the rules as strictly as we can" position.
Title: Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
Post by: rrenaud on July 06, 2012, 10:17:31 am
I am all for use everything in the kitchen sink approach to Dominion.  As long as your tools are publically available and you disclose you are using them, it's kosher to me.

It's not about gaining an advantage.  If it was about gaining an advantage, I wouldn't have encouraged theory to start a dominion strategy blog where he gave away all his insight.  I wouldn't have made councilroom open to everyone.  I wouldn't encourage drheld to add all kinds of notification/fairness/transparency features to his point counter extension.

To me, it's about encouraging people to play high quality dominion'*`@# ('*`@# for however many levels of variants you want to tack on to this crazy thing I'll just call dominion for short).

So yeah, let's make that dominion AI awesome.  Just share the code and let everyone use it.  If it actually gets to a point where the AIs just dominate humans, then maybe let's reconsider the human intelligence-bounded dominion.  I don't think this will ever happen.

As of now, it just seems like immense amounts of practice is much better than any kind of player aid, so there isn't even really anything to worry about.
Title: Re: Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
Post by: Eevee on July 06, 2012, 10:22:39 am
I am all for use everything in the kitchen sink approach to Dominion.  As long as your tools are publicly available and you disclose you are using them, it's kosher to me.

It's not about gaining an advantage.  If it was about gaining an advantage, I wouldn't have encouraged theory to start a dominion strategy blog where he gave away all his insight.  I wouldn't have made councilroom open to everyone.  I wouldn't encourage drheld to add all kinds of notification/fairness/transparency features to his point counter extension.

To me, it's about encouraging people to play high quality dominion'*`@# ('*`@# for however many levels of variants you want to tack on to this crazy thing I'll just call dominion for short).

So yeah, let's make that dominion AI awesome.  Just share the code and let everyone use it.  If it actually gets to a point where the AIs just dominate humans, then maybe let's reconsider the human intelligence-bounded dominion.  I don't think this will ever happen.

As of now, it just seems like immense amounts of practice is much better than any kind of player aid, so there isn't even really anything to worry about.

This is the way I enjoy dominion the most. Upvote a million times!

edit: this is the variant of dominion I enjoy the most.  ;)
Title: Re: What can be tracked for advantage?
Post by: Personman on July 06, 2012, 10:29:20 am
EDIT: Oops, this was moderated into this thread (along with the above two posts) from another that was going offtopic. I really didn't intend to post here again :/

The only thing I would add to rrenaud's post, which I agree with entirely, is that once you get into doing complex computation every turn, the time limit becomes a factor.

In a tournament setting where simulation is legal (and yes, I think it was implicitly legal in the qualifiers for all the same reasons as the extension, but can we please argue about it in PM or not at all so that theory doesn't have to close the thread?) the time limit needs to be strictly enforced, and perhaps ought to be more strict than it currently is. It is, quite understandably, very lenient (and also very opaque), and I do not think that all players taking full advantage of it leads to interesting Dominion. Theory's final slow play rule was an improvement, but the ideal case would be a built in, visible, adjustable turn clock, perhaps one that increments a small amount every time you take an action.

In casual play, simulating every turn could easily wind up making you appear the same as isotropic trolls who slow play just to piss you off/hope you'll leave. If your simulation is light enough or your computer fast enough to not take a noticeable amount of time, be my guest.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 06, 2012, 10:41:49 am
I have to disagree; other than the technicality of the missing face-up discard pile, everything else is exactly the same in terms of gameplay.

There are several other differences, actually:
  • "Waiting for reactions" tells you they have a reaction card.
  • "Plays two silvers" tells you they don't have any more standard currency. You can't hide the fact that you really overpaid for that province except by playing cards one by one, which already looks suspicious.
  • If they have more than one green, Bureaucrat has to wait for them to decide which one to put back (really useful for bureaucrat abuse because you know they have another).
  • Discarding, if there's a pause they'll know that you have tunnel(s) to reveal, even if you didn't want to reveal any.
  • Lookout draws three coppers, and it goes really quick -- so others notice.
  • Similarly, 5-copper hands take no time from the militia.
  • Someone else has a province to block your tournament, and you get to find out who it is. Maybe that changes what prize you get.
Can anyone think of any more? Yeah they won't affect a lot of games, but sometimes there is a way you can take advantage of the extra information online.
Good list. This had a thread before in the Isotropic Discussion (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2077.0). Additional differences from that thread:
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: samath on July 06, 2012, 02:59:52 pm
You can't see which order you drew cards.

Okay, I know this is a little off-topic, but I've realized the way around this one: The info screen displays the cards in the order you drew them. I frequently use this to figure out which cards missed the reshuffle. (Of course, you have to remember how many you had left in your deck at the end of last turn.) And well, some of the posts on that thread are like "I forget that I played a duration on isotropic," where you could just look at the log of your last turn almost as easily as looking at the board in front of you. And usually while you wouldn't get the exact number of cards in each stack right, you have a feel for how close the game is to ending from the sizes of the stacks, while you have to train yourself on isotropic to have that same kind of feel. But yeah, there are more good examples of instant plays that reveal information, for instance: A big KC chain suddenly dies when they don't have any more action cards to play. They're not just choosing not to KC that lookout, or it would take a while to come down that chain.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: joel88s on July 06, 2012, 05:03:26 pm
There could be a third option, though this may be like unringing a bell... I still use the Chrome point counter without the recent update, which shows the score, number of cards in the decks, and number of action and victory cards when Vineyard and Silk Road are present respectively. This last already strikes me as a bit TMI, but still seems a lot more reasonable to me than showing every card in the decks. I have no idea of course if it's possible to 'uninstall' the omniscient update and return to a simpler time.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 06, 2012, 07:52:13 pm
i really don't care that much about the counters. if people want them in tournaments then sure, go for it. i'm not at all convinced that the rules defend their existence in any way, but if this is the wave of the future so be it.  but i have two concerns with the present existence of the counter extension. 

first, both players should have the same access and presentation of the information.  as i understand the current extension, the person with the extension gets a cleaner presentation of the information.  i would personally lobby for a return to previous versions of the counter, where all information is displayed equally in the chat window.  alternately, i would suggest that isotropic and/or funsockets implement an easy to access interface for this information so that it is native to the game itself.

second, i don't really like that the extension can currently prevent people from disabling it.  i have played a handful of these games the past week and it just doesn't seem right.  there is no way of knowing who is turning off my option to disable.  people with the extension have an altered status in the lobby, but with the prevalence of automatch i don't think that the presence of the tracker is announced enough. if we can't return to a version which allows opponent disabling, then i think it would at least be nice to see a line in the automatch text referencing the setup. alternately, perhaps isotropic/funsockets can specify games with the extension similar to how you can specify games in veto mode or not.

i'll leave the debate of for/against the extension to you all, but if the extension information is to become standard that is what i would like to see.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Fabian on July 07, 2012, 07:50:58 pm
"there is no way of knowing who is turning off my option to disable.  people with the extension have an altered status in the lobby,"

These two sentences directly contradict each other.

Now if you're saying it's not enough, then that's fine and I would tend to agree, but there is a way of knowing who is turning off your option to disable; it's always announced in the status message in the lobby, like you say.

Another thing which has probably been mentioned in one of these thread, but I haven't seen it, is that the option of displaying the card counts at all times with the extension is just that, an option. You can uncheck the box "Show every player's card counts for each card" and the extension behaves like it did a few months ago before the change. This isn't announced though, and the only way of "proving" you've unchecked it that I can think of would be to screenshot your game. Still worth mentioning that the option does exist though, imo.

Edit: Sorry I think I might have misread/misunderstood the bit I quoted from you. Not everyone who uses the extension has that lobby message status; only the ones who have turned off your option to !disable are required to have it. This is why "lobby message status = no disabling" is a pretty safe assumption.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: blueblimp on July 07, 2012, 08:03:42 pm
Another thing which has probably been mentioned in one of these thread, but I haven't seen it, is that the option of displaying the card counts at all times with the extension is just that, an option. You can uncheck the box "Show every player's card counts for each card" and the extension behaves like it did a few months ago before the change. This isn't announced though, and the only way of "proving" you've unchecked it that I can think of would be to screenshot your game. Still worth mentioning that the option does exist though, imo.
I'd also point out that it'd be simple to modify the extension to announce when the card count display is disabled.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: popsofctown on July 07, 2012, 08:34:19 pm
Another thing which has probably been mentioned in one of these thread, but I haven't seen it, is that the option of displaying the card counts at all times with the extension is just that, an option. You can uncheck the box "Show every player's card counts for each card" and the extension behaves like it did a few months ago before the change. This isn't announced though, and the only way of "proving" you've unchecked it that I can think of would be to screenshot your game. Still worth mentioning that the option does exist though, imo.
I'd also point out that it'd be simple to modify the extension to announce when the card count display is disabled.

This sounds like a really good idea. 
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: metzgerism on July 09, 2012, 04:57:31 pm
I'd like to put in my two cents here.

I'm in favor of allowing anything anyone has at their disposal (provided they are unable to cheat with it), for the following reasons:

1) Complete information upfront allows players to more quickly come to the correct decision when considering late game purchases. Personman mentioned something earlier - that it allows players to play better because they have better knowledge. This isn't necessarily true, because all the information is tracked in the log and you can go back and read it.

The problem with that is that it wastes a lot of time, where the point and card counter gets you the information you really want instantly, AND those players who would usually make an educated guess are provided with even more accurate information upfront.

2) It changes the game, for the better in my opinion. Dominion WITH the point counter feels a lot like the administrative scoring aspects of football - the points involved are similar, and you don't want to leave your opponent with a halfway-decent chance at the end of the game. Remember this year's Super Bowl, with Ahmad Bradshaw falling into the end zone for the game winning TD, and looking like an idiot? That's because he took the second to last province, and was playing against Tom Brady. The parallels are not exactly the same, but hopefully you get my point - it's not always about getting the most points, sometimes you just have to manage the clock.

Now, if everyone knows how to do this properly, they will (hopefully) playing appropriately based on the scoreline. Imagine trying to play football without a scoreboard, and with a lot more scoring - I played Aussie Rules for years, and we had this problem (point tallies usually approach or break 100, and there's often about 30 scoring events per team per game, so we just kinda had to guess on the score and the clock as well).

---

The card and point counters do nothing that you couldn't track yourself, with pencil and paper - they just do it faster, which means less in-game delays for those players looking to actually perform well. For that reason alone, I'd allow them, but also it's hard to regulate from an organizational standpoint, so I'd just not regulate it, period.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on July 09, 2012, 06:47:49 pm
"there is no way of knowing who is turning off my option to disable.  people with the extension have an altered status in the lobby,"

These two sentences directly contradict each other.

Now if you're saying it's not enough, then that's fine and I would tend to agree, but there is a way of knowing who is turning off your option to disable; it's always announced in the status message in the lobby, like you say.

Edit: Sorry I think I might have misread/misunderstood the bit I quoted from you. Not everyone who uses the extension has that lobby message status; only the ones who have turned off your option to !disable are required to have it. This is why "lobby message status = no disabling" is a pretty safe assumption.

i think you covered this in your edit comment, but maybe i just have a misunderstanding of how the PCE worked.  i thought that it would require you to have that AutoCount status, but i did not know of any way to separate a regular PCE player from a PCE player who i can't disable based only on their status.

again, i personally just think that people should have full knowledge of any constraints or variations on the game coming in.  anyone can go ahead and use the PCE. i would just like to know it before i agree to play, and i think that is a reasonable compromise. and for those who do have an issue with it, they can then filter their games accordingly, just as they would with veto or point counters in the current form.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Varsinor on August 10, 2012, 08:36:23 pm
I'd like to throw in my couple of cents:

I love the PCE! :) I think it makes Dominion a *much* better game. (Actually the only regret I have about it is that it doesn't also track the cards left in my deck and the cards I know about that my opponent discarded.)

Therefore, any tournament that allows it will be much more attractive to play for me than any tournament that disallows it. (And I really hope that the new official game will eventually get a deck counter so that this question stays relevant after Isotropic goes down.)
But of course I realize that this is a matter of taste and opinions on it differ. I understand that using it is a variant from the official rules (at least since I have recently read postings from Donald X. where he said so). (So obviously if I chose to play a tournament that disallowed the PCE, I would comply with that rule.)

Here are my reasons for why I am so much in favor of the PCE:

1. I don't like the memory aspect of Dominion at all. That aspect is trivial in my opinion. It's not that I am bad at memorizing, in fact I think my memory is quite good. But memorizing cards costs "mental energy" and I would much rather either spend that energy to think about my game strategy or just relax for a casual game and not spend that energy at all.

2. The PCE heightens the level of play. It makes it more likely that the more complicated combos actually work. I love to try to play as optimally as possible - independently of the aspect of winning, just because I like the "perfection" of it, I guess (but don't call me Seven ;)).

3. It also makes it easier to realize why the game turned out in a certain way. It therefore helps people to get better at Domininon. Which should be particularly nice for beginners.

4. If you don't allow the PCE, it makes the game slower when people take their time memorizing things or retroactively thinking about if they can end it now or going through the logs of the previous turns which can still be seen on Isotropic.

5. There is also the issue of enforceability. You obviously can't control if people use an undetectable card counter or just take notes (be it on paper or Excel etc.) in an online game. Don't get me wrong: If we were talking about something game-breaking and/or ethically bad like playing with multiple accounts and masquerading yourself Colonies or something like that, it would of course be horrible cheating and needed to be outlawed even if that is difficult to enforce.
But when there are already good other arguments in favor of allowing the PCE (#1-#4) and no imperative arguments against it, I think the non-enforceability becomes a strong additional argument. I have only read parts of that monster thread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3246.0), but from what I have read, in my opinion Personman got unfairly bashed for making a similar argument there. I guess this bashing was to some extent a consequence of him wording the argument too absolutely and not emphasizing that this doesn't apply to many other cases of rules which may be difficult to enforce. IMO the important part there is that rules that are imperative to make the game work such as a rule against playing with a secret second account must be upheld even if very difficult to enforce. So here I tried to formulate the argument in a way I think is more precise.
I think there is a good analogy in some Dominion rules about revealing your cards for instance against Cutpurse and Bureaucrat when you don't have a target in hand. These rules obviously exist to prevent an incentive to cheat in offline Dominion. If Dominion had originally been made to be played only online, the cards probably wouldn't have this clause. But it is a sensible clause to prevent a situation of non-enforceability because Dominion is also played offline. It otherwise doesn't hurt the game much. (Only insofar as it gives the cards a little more text to read.)
In analogy, I would argue that allowing point/deck counters is a sensible rule for online Dominion - especially in tournaments. I am certainly aware that the fact that I personally like Dominion much better with a counter has probably helped to come to this conclusion... ;) But well, maybe think about this: If the original offline Dominion would have had some sort of manual point counter (or even an electronic deck counter if that were somehow available cheaply enough), I guess not many people would have complained about that and just not seen memory elements as part of the game.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: eHalcyon on August 10, 2012, 08:44:23 pm
2. The PCE heightens the level of play. It makes it more likely that the more complicated combos actually work. I love to try to play as optimally as possible - independently of the aspect of winning, just because I like the "perfection" of it, I guess (but don't call me Seven ).

How far do you take this?  I mean, if you want the absolutely highest level of play, what about a variant where you simulate perfect shuffle luck?  That is, you always have full access to your deck, and you can swap cards in and out of your hand at will?  The only restrictions would be that anything in the discard must stay there until a reshuffle, and any cards revealed must remain revealed (e.g. if you pull out a Moat and reveal it to block an attack, that Moat must be part of your hand when your next turn starts).

I actually think it would be a really neat variant.  Not that I'd want to see that in a tournament.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Varsinor on August 10, 2012, 08:52:49 pm
How far do you take this?  I mean, if you want the absolutely highest level of play, what about a variant where you simulate perfect shuffle luck?

That would be a very different game. It might still be interesting as you say. I might try it out, but to be honest there are other things I'd rather try... ;) I guess many cards would become too unbalanced, for instance Treasure Map or Baron.

My point about optimal play was about optimal play within the limits of the normal rules with random shuffling - just with the variant of perfect memory of all public information.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: eHalcyon on August 10, 2012, 08:56:51 pm
How far do you take this?  I mean, if you want the absolutely highest level of play, what about a variant where you simulate perfect shuffle luck?

That would be a very different game. It might still be interesting as you say. I might try it out, but to be honest there are other things I'd rather try... ;)

My point about optimal play was about optimal play within the limits of the normal rules with random shuffling - just with the variant of perfect memory of all public information.

Well in that case, keep in mind that you can't fully track opponent's discard piles.  That's not public info.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Varsinor on August 10, 2012, 09:04:49 pm
Well in that case, keep in mind that you can't fully track opponent's discard piles.  That's not public info.

True. (I edited my posting above to a more precise remark about this.)
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: greatexpectations on August 11, 2012, 12:15:14 am
2. The PCE heightens the level of play. It makes it more likely that the more complicated combos actually work. I love to try to play as optimally as possible - independently of the aspect of winning, just because I like the "perfection" of it, I guess (but don't call me Seven ;)).

until i see some better reasoning behind this im gonna go ahead and call bs. it sounds like the kind of thing a clueless sports broadcaster would say. nice for a soundbite, but lacking in substance. how exactly does it ensure more complicated combos work?

3. It also makes it easier to realize why the game turned out in a certain way. It therefore helps people to get better at Dominion. Which should be particularly nice for beginners.

there are two ways you can view this. if you are looking at it after the fact then well game logs already cover all that.  and if you are looking for this kind of assistance during a game then that strikes me as a bit sketch.  i mean at that point can i just ask a high level friend for input on how to play my current game?

4. If you don't allow the PCE, it makes the game slower when people take their time memorizing things or retroactively thinking about if they can end it now or going through the logs of the previous turns which can still be seen on Isotropic.

meh, i'm gonna call bs again. the PCE will save you very little that the standard point counter would not already do. seeing all of the data the PCE provides can just as easily cause as much AP as it will save time.

But when there are already good other arguments in favor of allowing the PCE...

those all struck me more as either personal opinions or baseless statements passed as facts.

(#1-#4) and no imperative arguments against it,

there were a few arguments against it.  the one where the creator of the game said that any form of notetaking or use of extraneous supplies was against the rules comes to mind. or the fact that the PCE shows information different for users and nonusers and that nonusers should not be forced to use an extension to level the playing field. seriously, if everything available via the PCE was a checkbox option on isotropic this wouldn't be an issue.  but the PCE is a variant, and should require mutual consent for play.

in my opinion Personman got unfairly bashed for making a similar argument there. I guess this bashing was to some extent a consequence of him wording the argument too absolutely and not emphasizing that this doesn't apply to many other cases of rules which may be difficult to enforce.

nah, personman was bashed more for being pretty stubborn about using the extension and seemingly taking advantage of theory's attempts at making peace. that and a couple of contradictory defenses.

man i don't care about this stupid extension. i think that a single set against pops was the only time i've ever disabled anyone, it doesn't matter to me. it strikes me as a bit of a crutch but if thats your thing so be it.  but some of these arguments in favor of it are just completely backwards. if you are going to make a case for it though i would focus on points 1 and 5, eliminating memory and enforcability, and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Varsinor on August 11, 2012, 09:14:05 am
until i see some better reasoning behind this im gonna go ahead and call bs. it sounds like the kind of thing a clueless sports broadcaster would say. nice for a soundbite, but lacking in substance. how exactly does it ensure more complicated combos work?

I didn't say it ensures them, I said it makes them more likely to work. As in "you have a higher chance to make the best decision in critical moments".
There are several deck types for which it can be important exactly how many cards of each you have. Ambassador and Chapel games for instance or most alternate VP strategies. (How much are your Fairgrounds? Is it safe to buy Silk Roads over Duchies?) In fact, in these cases they are so important that many people will commit "memory efforts" to counting these things in games without an automatic counter. At least I did before I used the PCE. But that is tiring and you can make mistakes.
To play engines optimally it is often important to have the right ratio of terminals and villages, among other things.
Sure, you can go ahead and just wing that, but as I said your engines/combos are somewhat more likely to work with the optimal ratio.
I mean, come on. These should be pretty obvious. If the use of the PCE didn't provide some benefit over pure memory, nobody would complain that an opponent used them.

3. It also makes it easier to realize why the game turned out in a certain way. It therefore helps people to get better at Dominion. Which should be particularly nice for beginners.

there are two ways you can view this. if you are looking at it after the fact then well game logs already cover all that.  and if you are looking for this kind of assistance during a game then that strikes me as a bit sketch.  i mean at that point can i just ask a high level friend for input on how to play my current game?

I was talking about the learning aspect here. Being tutored by a high level friend sure helps loads for learning, quite certainly much more than any counter alone ever could! But most people aren't so fortunate as to have high level friends who tutor them during their games. Yes, you can also go through the log afterwards (and sometimes I do), but you don't do that on most games because it takes a lot of time and isn't very fun.
I often had learning effects during a game sparked by following the PCE output. Such as, "oh, my opponent is probably doing better because he has more Menageries" or Warehouses or whatever.
Actually, I must admit that often I don't even read much of the per-turn-text-output of what my opponent does because I find it too cumbersome to read. I more or less follow what he buys and gains (and swindles me) on the PCE.
Even before I used the PCE I didn't read much of the text output either, so I missed a lot about the strategies of my opponent.
I play a lot of 3 and 4 player games too, the PCE is obviously even more important there to know about the composition of my opponents decks.

4. If you don't allow the PCE, it makes the game slower when people take their time memorizing things or retroactively thinking about if they can end it now or going through the logs of the previous turns which can still be seen on Isotropic.

meh, i'm gonna call bs again. the PCE will save you very little that the standard point counter would not already do.

How can my statement be bullshit? It is a factual statement that is obviously true. You know, "when people" as in "if people". (Or is there some linguistic reason that "when" doesn't imply "if" here? I am pretty sure that there isn't. But if so it was a language problem, English is not my first language.)
If and when people take much time to memorize etc., the game is slower. That is a fact. The question is only how many people take much time to memorize.
It is probably the case that in most casual games, most people don't spend much time on that. But in important tournament games, that might very likely be different.

seeing all of the data the PCE provides can just as easily cause as much AP as it will save time.

I don't know what you mean by "AP", buy I guess something along the lines of "wasting time".
I can't be certain about other people, but using the PCE certainly makes me play faster, not slower.

(#1-#4) and no imperative arguments against it,

there were a few arguments against it.

I don't dispute that, I started my posting by acknowledging that I am aware that this is a matter of taste and personal preferences in the end.
I made my posting to state mine.

the one where the creator of the game said that any form of notetaking or use of extraneous supplies was against the rules comes to mind.

He has also confirmed that of course it can be played as a variant if the opponents agree.
So it obviously wouldn't be against any rules or even against Donald X's wishes if someone organized a tournament with PCE allowed for people who like that. By participating, you would agree to play this variant just as you agreed to other variants like identical starting hands in other tournaments.

or the fact that the PCE shows information different for users and nonusers

I totally agree that this is far from optimal.
Therefore I really hope that the new game will have a solution where all opponents can see the full output if the (hopefully to be programmed) deck counter option gets enabled (when all opponents agreed to it).

seriously, if everything available via the PCE was a checkbox option on isotropic this wouldn't be an issue.  but the PCE is a variant, and should require mutual consent for play.

Well, technically that is the case now because you can either disable the PCE of your opponent or see the auto count message in the lobby and then refuse to play with him or even prohibit all games with point counter automatically.
However, I totally agree that this is an unsatisfactory situation for people who a) don't mind the simple point counter b) don't consent to the PCE and c) find it too cumbersome to check lobby status for auto count before they accept an auto-match.
It is probably too late to advocate any changes on Isotropic now, but I absolutely agree that Funsockets should find a solution that makes is easier for people with preferences a) through c) to get what they want.
The best solution on Isotropic would probably have been to have two checkboxes, one for "point tracker" and one for "deck tracker", both with the three options to require, prohibit or not care (I suppose that is what you meant above).
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: samath on August 11, 2012, 11:46:15 am
How far do you take this?  I mean, if you want the absolutely highest level of play, what about a variant where you simulate perfect shuffle luck?  That is, you always have full access to your deck, and you can swap cards in and out of your hand at will?  The only restrictions would be that anything in the discard must stay there until a reshuffle, and any cards revealed must remain revealed (e.g. if you pull out a Moat and reveal it to block an attack, that Moat must be part of your hand when your next turn starts).

I actually think it would be a really neat variant.  Not that I'd want to see that in a tournament.

I've actually played this irl. It makes solitaire more fun, definitely, though you need a good way to track turns. You essentially play with your decks face-up and pick up the cards you want each turn like you describe. I haven't entirely worked out how to resolve attacks/reactions without completely gimping Swindler or making Trader/Watchtower/Moat OP, though.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Ozle on August 11, 2012, 11:55:26 am
This is all a moot discussion now isn't it?
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: rrenaud on August 11, 2012, 12:19:19 pm
This is all a moot discussion now isn't it?

You hope! ;P
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Ozle on August 11, 2012, 01:05:27 pm
This is all a moot discussion now isn't it?

You hope! ;P

Nope, i'm putting my foot down and making a decision for everyone. Moot it is!
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Beyond Awesome on August 18, 2012, 01:52:34 am
Well, if we didn't have a point counter, I would just use pen and paper or use Word to keep track of score. So, for that reason, I don't see why it should not be allowed.
Title: Re: Use of the point- / card-counter extension in an online tournament
Post by: Powerman on August 18, 2012, 11:02:01 am
1. I don't like the memory aspect of Dominion at all. That aspect is trivial in my opinion. It's not that I am bad at memorizing, in fact I think my memory is quite good. But memorizing cards costs "mental energy" and I would much rather either spend that energy to think about my game strategy or just relax for a casual game and not spend that energy at all.
I suppose this is a matter of opinion, yes, but to me the mental aspect is what makes this game better than many others.  I mean, I don't like say, Monopoly, because it all relies on Dice-Rolling / Chance Cards / Viewable information.  I like in Dominion that you have to think about what you have before deciding to buy a +Draw or a +Action... if you are told, it's basically following a formula.

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2. The PCE heightens the level of play. It makes it more likely that the more complicated combos actually work. I love to try to play as optimally as possible - independently of the aspect of winning, just because I like the "perfection" of it, I guess (but don't call me Seven ;)).
This might be true on some levels.  For people who are unable to follow their own deck, it certainly does help them not get blown away by the people who can do that.  But... isn't this a "skill" game?

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3. It also makes it easier to realize why the game turned out in a certain way. It therefore helps people to get better at Domininon. Which should be particularly nice for beginners.
The PCE is nice for beginners, certainly, because actually seeing what they have is huge because they will have no idea what to track.  But, the PCE (past very beginner levels) does not improve you any more than the final game logs.

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4. If you don't allow the PCE, it makes the game slower when people take their time memorizing things or retroactively thinking about if they can end it now or going through the logs of the previous turns which can still be seen on Isotropic.
This is the one I have most issue with.  Perhaps this is just me, and other people play differently, but I have found absolutely no difference in game speed based on whether a person has PCE enabled or not.  And I also have found that I am never "slower" than my opponent, and I don't use PCE.  Actually, the only exception I've found is more times than not people with a disabled Auto Count are slow, but I think that might be because they're mad at me for disabling :p

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5. Points #1-#3 above are probably the most important ones, but there is also the question of enforceability. You obviously can't control if people use an undetectable card counter or just take notes in an online game. Don't get me wrong: If we were talking about something game-breaking and/or ethically bad like playing with multiple accounts and masquerading yourself Colonies or something like that, it would of course be horrible cheating and needed to be outlawed even if that is difficult to enforce.
This is the most "valid" reason, as yes, there is absolutely no way to catch uncatchable cheating.  Do I think this is reason enough to allow it?  No, but I definitely do see this as an issue.