Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Qvist on July 02, 2012, 04:01:45 pm

Title: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Qvist on July 02, 2012, 04:01:45 pm
The wisdom of the crowds. With exactly 62 65 "Best Cards" lists, we got the double amount of rankings and may also a double as good list ;)

You were waiting for the results, so let's get started. Feel free to comment.
I changed the card texts a little bit, but couldn't update references to the councilroom openings as it is still down. I will update that soon.
I'm sorry for mistakes with the English language as I'm no native speaker.

(For reference, if anybody is wondering: I defined lower deviation as "better" because it means "more agreement")

The Best $2 Cards
Link to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D2)
Link 2 to the win rates on Councilroom (http://councilroom.com/win_rate_diff_accum.html?cards=Cost%3D%3D2)

(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/secretchamber.jpg)#16 ▼1 Secret Chamber (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 14.89 ▼0.40 / Median: 15 ▼0.5 / Mode: 16 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 1.6 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (28x)

Secret Chamber is the worst $2 card this time. It lost one rank. But the consensus was high. Nearly the half of all list ranked it on the last place and only the first-ranked card has a lower standard deviation.

The action part seems not so bad. You can discard cards for money and in decks with many victory cards or curses it's guaranteed $4. But first: What do you want to buy with $4? As a opener it's bad, because mostly you want to get to $5 and later in the game you need $5 too to get at least a Duchy. So, basically it's a very bad Vault and you better buy a Silver. But there are rare cases, especially you can use it when you need virtual money like in Tactician turns, or you draw your whole deck with Scrying Pools discard all action cards with Secret Chamber for money just to draw them again, or when you want to buy Grand Markets. It's reaction part is really bad. It has nearly no effect against the best attacks: Cursers and Handsize-Reducers, but you can use it against cards that mess up the top of your deck or trash cards from your deck, like Thief or Pirate Ship.
But Thief is already bad. Why buy a reaction card against Thief? Yes, it's nice against Minion, but that's all.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/duchess.jpg)#15 ▲1 Duchess (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 14.39 ▲0.66 / Median: 15 ▲1 / Mode: 16 =0 / Standard Deviation: 1.6 ▼0.1
Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #12 (6x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (21x)

Duchess switched places with Secret Chamber, but still only has a lead of half a point because it still has over 20 last places.

It's a terminal silver with a spy-effect that has even a benefit for your opponents. Yeah, it's even so bad that it needs a clause to get it for free when you buy a Duchy.
And mostly that are the only cases you want a Duchess. Rarely you want to spend $2 to buy one. Once in a while you want it for free, especially when you are trying to make a "green card rush" with Duke or Gardens and want to maintain the buying power and emptying the third pile as fast as possible. That may also the be the reason that it went up a rank, because you can get it for free. And a Duchess for free is even better than a Secret Chamber for $2.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/pearldiver.jpg)#14 =0 Pearl Diver (Seaside) Weighted Average: 13.36 ▲0.30 / Median: 14 =0 / Mode: 15 =0 / Standard Deviation: 2 ▼0.5
Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #10 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (6x)

Also no surprise here. Although it has some more outliers in the top ranks, it's still only on #14 with too many bad ranks, at least it went up 0.3 points. It was on #15 14 times. Why is it so bad?

Pearl Diver mostly don't hurt in your deck as it is a cantrip. So, if you got $2 early and you don't want to buy an Estate, you can buy a Pearl Diver. Buying too much Duchesses or Secret Chambers hurts much more than too many Pearl Divers. But the benefit of Pearl Diver is lower than those cards. It's only use is to minimize draw luck a little bit and to let cards shine which interact with the top card of your deck (Native Village comes into my mind). OK, I admit, since Cornucopia it got a little boost as it can add more diversity into your deck and cards like Menagerie, Fairgrounds, Horn of Plenty can profit from it. Pearl Diver never really shines, but it hurts less.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/herbalist.jpg)#13 =0 Herbalist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 12.99 ▼0.28 / Median: 13 =0 / Mode: 12 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 1.7 ▼0.6
Highest Rank(s): #9 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #15 (13x), #16 (1x)

Last time it was the card with the least deviation. This time it's only on #4. It got even one last place, the first time ever. But its mode on the other side went up one rank as it was on #12 15 times.

If I know correctly it's a card that's widely hated, especially because it's the only non-potion-related card in the Alchemy set (Apprentice references Potion at least) and its bad too. Many liked to see it replaced with another potion-cost card. But I think it's bad reputation is only half-justified. Yeah, it's a terminal copper. How bad is that! So, mostly it hurts. But "scheming" your treasures is really nice. In the beginning you can use your newly buyed Gold twice if you have the luck to draw it with Herbalist. And even putting back a Silver is not so bad in the beginning. But especially if you're going for Potion (because of that it's in Alchemy) you can use it twice early on. The most important combo might be Alchemist+Herbalist. And - mostly forgotten - it's one of three $2 cards that gives the important +Buy and it's the only one which gives the +Buy without taking a disadvantage (either discarding one card or forfeiting an option). This in combination with Philosopher's Stone is therefore also very nice. But if you have no +Actions this card is mostly not worth buying. Its board dependency may be the reason of its higher deviation.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/moat.jpg)#12 =0 Moat (Base) Weighted Average: 12.43 ▼0.19 / Median: 13 ▼1 / Mode: 13 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 2.4 ▼0.3
Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #7 (1x), #8 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #16 (7x)

Moat now has a definitely higher deviation. With a big outlier on #3, but still seven last places. It lost also one rank in median and mode. What could be the reason?

Moat is very situational. It highly depends on the cards on the board and - more important - on the number of players. If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat is usually a very good buy. It can prevent getting 3 coppers and 3 curses in one turn. But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers or Library/Watchtower/Menagerie agains hand-size-reducing is mostly the better alternative. Even worse, if there's no attack card on the board, +2 cards with no other benefit is so weak, because that means a raw benefit of +1 card . Maybe only if your going for Big Money with bad other cards and you're getting unlucky and hit $2 early, this might be worth considering. As most players play 2-player games here, it got that many last places.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/cellar.jpg)#11 ▼1 Cellar (Base) Weighted Average: 10.66 ▼1.35 / Median: 11 ▼1.5 / Mode: 11 =0 / Standard Deviation: 2.5 ▲0.2
Highest Rank(s): #3 (2x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #14 (4x), #16 (1x)

One of the cards with the highest deviation is Cellar. Last year its worst place was #13, this time we also have a last place. It lost more than one point and therefore lost a rank, it's the biggest loser of the $2 cards. Especially the median heavily went down. It mostly ranked on #11 (16x).

There are many cards that take profit from bad cards like Estate or Curses. Secret Chamber fails - as mentioned earlier - by just getting $1 per card. Cellar let you discard them and get you get your good cards in hand. Of course Warehouse is better in most cases as it let you draw your cards before discarding, but Cellar can even discard more than 3 cards if you wish. If you want compare Cellar with another $2 card, Crossroads comes into your mind. Crossroads also lets you draw more cards for useless cards. But it is limited to green cards, so you get no benefit for Curses and Coppers. But you don't have to discard them and it gives you +3 Actions the first time. So it highly depends which card is better. In cursing games Cellar's great. And of course with Tunnel. The problem is often the opportunity cost; when do you want to spend your money on a $2 mediocre card?
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/embargo.jpg)#10 ▲1 Embargo (Seaside) Weighted Average: 9.36 ▲0.87 / Median: 9 ▲1 / Mode: 9 ▲2 / Standard Deviation: 2.4 ▼0.2
Highest Rank(s): #4 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #14 (3x), #15 (1x)

Embargo switched places with Cellar, but also made a big jump with nearly one point more. The median and mode are better and it is the first card in this list without a single last place. Even last time it had a last place. Especially the three lists ranking it on #4 are surprising.

First, it's a terminal silver. Basically that's bad. But it's a one-shot. So if you get unlucky and hit $2 early you can buy it without much thinking as it only interferes once. But Embargo can be a game-changer, especially if you and your opponent(s) are taking different strategies. And it really shines if your opponent buys a Potion and you decide not to go for Potion. Just embargo the Potion-cost card and you are turns ahead. And especially you can shut down strategies that want a lot of a single card, like Hunting Party, Alchemist or alternative victory cards. So, it's nearly never bad, but only shines situation-wise. And it might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/pawn.jpg)#9 ▼1 Pawn (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 8.58 ▼0.96 / Median: 8 =0 / Mode: 7 ▲2 / Standard Deviation: 2.6 ▼0.9
Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #3 (1x), #4 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (2x), #14 (1x), #15 (1x)

Pawn is the card with the highest deviation this time. I can't understand this, because Pawn is THE mediocre card in my opinion. Last time the deviation was really low, but with such big outliers on both sides this year - it was even second - the deviation increases heavily and loses one rank. But the difference between rank #9 and #8 is not big. On the other side its mode increased; it was on #7 16 times.

Pawn is bad if you don't know how to play it and simply use it as a cantrip. But it can be very useful as a cheap source of +Buy and in the beginning it's mostly a cheap Silver if you use it for card + money. It's flexibility makes it good. But it's not great. It can win your game because you picked it up for +Buy but normally it's no game-changer. And if you use it for card + action it at least doesn't hurt. But nothing is more frustrating if you use it for card + money and you draw a Pawn dead.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/nativevillage.jpg)#8 ▲1 Native Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 8.28 ▲0.04 / Median: 8 =0 / Mode: 8 =0 / Standard Deviation: 2.5 ▼0.1
Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #3 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #13 (4x)

Native Village is a mediocre $2 card with relative high deviation. It's the worst $2 village (with Hamlet and Crossroads to come). It's the most consistent card so far with nearly the same points as last time and similar high deviation. But why ?

The problem with NV is that you get no immediate benefit beside the +2 Actions. If you use it as a cheap village you only draw 1/2 card per play. But that's not the intended use. But you can use it either as a pseudo-trasher by putting bad cards on the mat. But it fails that you cannot choose the card to put there. You need assistence with cards like Spy, Pearl Diver, Wishing Well or Lookout. The best use may be to use it for mega-turn with a lot of buys. NV+Bridge is the most effective combo. It's also neat on boards with heavy cursing to either forge a big hand or to get at least once to $6-$8.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/haven.jpg)#7 ▼1 Haven (Seaside) Weighted Average: 7.27 ▼0.49 / Median: 7 ▼1 / Mode: 6 =0 / Standard Deviation: 2.2 =0
Highest Rank(s): #2 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (4x), #12 (1x)

After Haven lost the battle for #5 very close last year, it is only #7 this year and this although it was voted four times on the second place. It was 15 times on #6. What makes it above-average?

Haven reduces your hand size by one, but your next hand size is bigger, that hurts very rarely. And this ability to minimize draw luck is great. You have $11, just set a Gold aside. You have $7, just set a Copper aside. Two terminal actions in hand, no problem. You get your maximum out of your money and your actions. It's a very good card, but no game-changer what may be the reason why it isn't a tier 1 card. It supports every strategy but isn't a strategy on its own. Still it's one of the best $2 cost cards for a 5/2 opening split. Trading Post / Haven is on #9 and Mountebank / Haven on #15.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/crossroads.jpg)#6 ▲1 Crossroads (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 6.79 ▲0.57 / Median: 7 =0 / Mode: 6 ▲1 / Standard Deviation: 2.3 ▲0.1
Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #3 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #12 (2x)

Crossroads is the second Hinterlands card that also went up one rank and the last card in the middle range before the biggest gap in the list. The raw statistics are similar to Haven (same Median, same Mode and nearly identical Top and Worst Ranks). But it was voted 17 times in the Top 5, while Haven was only voted 9 times there.

Crossroads is the only card with +3 Actions which can be very useful. The problem is the luck factor you need with that card. If you buy it early and get a hand with 4 coppers, you wish it were a Silver or one of the above $2 cards. Later you draw it with 3 Estates and you draw now your Vault and you can buy a Province for sure. It combos well with cards that take advantage of big hands. So Crossroads + Vault is very good and of course it's great with your good $5 attacks, especially setting up a Torturer chain. Baron + Crossroads is also nice because it gives you the actions to play multiples and you can much easier connect Estate and Baron together. IMO Crossroads is never a reason to go green earlier, but it helps a lot in the end game and can assure you won't lose your buying power. And sometimes there are so many good terminals that you only want it for its 3 Actions. As mentioned above another problem is that it only synergizes with victory cards not with curses what makes it a worse alternative to Cellar in cursing games. Still it went up one rank, as the community appreciate the flexible use it offers. Drawing without having to discard is often better because you have targets for other cards, for example trash-for-benefit cards. Wharf / Crossroads is the third-best Wharf opening on #67.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/fools-gold.jpg)#5 =0 Fool's Gold (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 4.52 ▲2.0 / Median: 4 ▲1.5 / Mode: 5 =0 / Standard Deviation: 2.5 ▲0.7
Highest Rank(s): #1 (2x), #2 (11x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (3x), #15 (1x)

Fool's Gold is the next Hinterlands card and the biggest winner of the $2 cards. Even though it's still on #5, it went up 2 points and it was a very close battle for #4. It's also the first card that got a first rank and that even twice. And eleven second places is also great. It was on #5 14 times, but it's still one of the cards with the highest deviation (look at the one big outlier on #15), but not that big anymore - compared to last time. Why is it so strong?

Going for Fool's Gold is its own strategy what Haven isn't. If you buy just one or two, it mostly isn't worth it, because the reaction part isn't the strong part. You want FG in masses, in high density. With a card with money and +Buy and/or a card drawer it's really great and you have to go for it. Goal: Get as many FGs as you can. Margrave + FG or Nomad Camp + FG are good combos, Remodel + FG and Mine + FG as well, but you can get even higher density with Mint. Mint + FG is the fifth ▼3 best opening on Councilroom. That may reason enough that FG deserves to be in the Top 5. Connecting at least two FG isn't that hard if you've got lots of them. And then it's better than Silver. But you really have to analyze when to buy it. On boards with strong cursers where it's unlikely to connect them, it's one of the worst cards - on other boards it's the best card. The still high deviation of your rankings proved that.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/lighthouse.jpg)#4 =0 Lighthouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 4.46 ▲0.02 / Median: 4 =0 / Mode: 5 ▼1 / Standard Deviation: 2.1 ▼0.1
Highest Rank(s): #1 (2x), #2 (6x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (1x), #12 (1x)

Rank #4 was a really close call. Fool's Gold has way more second places, but with the lower deviation of Lighthouse and only 9 players ranking it below #6, it stayed on #4. With 15 votes on #5 it also lost one point in Mode. It's also one of the most consistent cards compared to last year in the weighted average.

With Lighthouse on the board, you really need to evualate if it's worth buying a attacking engine. It may the best Reaction that isn't even blue. Why? Most important: It's non-terminal. Unlike Moat, it cannot collide with other terminal actions or another copy. Second: It gives you money. It may look like a Copper, but after you play it, you are safe and get even another $1 the next turn. No surprise Mountebank / Lighthouse is the tenth best opening. Without the reaction part it's still nearly as good as Silver, but on boards with heavy attacks, it's clearly superior to Silver. You only have to make sure you play one Lighthouse each turn.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/courtyard.jpg)#3 =0 Courtyard (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 3.44 ▲0.02 / Median: 3 =0 / Mode: 3 =0 / Standard Deviation: 1.7 ▲0.6
Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (16x) / Lowest Rank(s): #7 (5x), #9 (1x)

Courtyard got only first once, but with 16 second and even 17 third places, there's no doubt about its strength. It nearly got second, it was veeery close. It's also one of the most consistent cards compared to last year in the weighted average, but if you look at the deviation, much more agreement on its placement than last year.

Courtyard is really great with Big Money. Like Haven it minimizes shuffle luck by putting a card on top of the deck, so if you have too much money or a second Courtyard in hand, that's no problem. But you don't get a 6 card hand like with Haven. But the card draw makes it really nice with Big Money and very strong for a $2 card. It's not much worse than Smithy which costs $4. And Smithy itself is by far not the worst $4 card. Its concept is simple but very effective. Don't underestimate the power of Courtyard. Additionally Courtyard is also a good drawer in engines as you can put your strong colliding terminal action also on top of your deck. So it's nearly everytime a very strong card.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/hamlet.jpg)#2 =0 Hamlet (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 3.35 ▼0.83 / Median: 3 ▼1 / Mode: 2 =0 / Standard Deviation: 1.8 ▼0.9
Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #6 (3x), #9 (1x), #11 (1x)

Hamlet got 3 first and 20 second places. But still Hamlet's position is a little disappointing. It lost nearly a point and it was very close between Hamlet and Courtyard. And especially the deviation went down. I can't explain the disagreement right now, but Hamlet seems much less often useful than it used to be.

It's one of the best villages around. Yes, you have to discard one card as "payment" for the second action, but if you really need the +2 Actions there's no problem for you to discard that Copper. And most important: Most engines lack +Buy. Hamlet may provide that for another card as payment. Even if you don't need the +2 Actions for your strategy, a non-terminal card with +Buy is always worth to buy. So, if you use both options, you have a Worker's Village for $2, but you have to "pay" for that options. And when you got your first Hamlet you can easily buy more Hamlets with that additional +Buy. With "draw up to" cards like Watchtower or Library it's brilliant and everybody's favourite for engine building. Of course it's not that useful in Big Money boards what may be the reason for many prefering the more flexible Courtyard over Hamlet.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/chapel.jpg)#1 =0 Chapel (Base) Weighted Average: 1.25 ▼0.07 / Median: 1 =0 / Mode: 1 =0 / Standard Deviation: 0.6 ▼0.1
Highest Rank(s): #1 (57x) / Lowest Rank(s): #3 (4x), #4 (1x)

Really, that's still no surprise. A nearly perfect score, not as perfect as last year, but still uncontested. Is it still that great?

So, what's up with that uber-card? Even Donald X. admitted that Chapel is a little bit overpowered and he won't release another card so strong like Chapel in future expansions. Trashing is important in the beginning, and the cost of Chapel enables everyone to open with Chapel. As Councilroom shows (http://councilroom.com/win_weighted_accum_turn.html?cards=Chapel) it's veeery strong, but only if you open with it. You even want to start Chapel/Silver with 3/4. It's not every time a must-buy but in most occasions it is. It's so strong that you already can say you lost if your opponent opened Witch/Chapel and you have a 4/3 start. Mountebank/Chapel and Govenor/Chapel are the best two openings on Councilroom and Witch/Chapel (#4) and Tournament/Chapel (#6) are close behind. It is 27 times in the top #100. So, its power is undeniable. I do agree that it's more often skippable than it used to be, especially on Big Money boards or other boards with strong key cards which you want ASAP.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: theory on July 02, 2012, 04:11:44 pm
Darn, I haven't had a chance to submit yet.  Can I still do so for the other lists?

I thought Haven was too low at first but damn, the $2's have some strong competition now.  I do think Herbalist is a bit high and Duchess a bit low but otherwise very accurate!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: ftl on July 02, 2012, 04:16:45 pm
I'm surprised Duchess is still that low. I mean, it's free! Are people's decks really so trim and lean that taking a terminal silver for free is bad? I ranked it last the first time, but moved it up a lot this time. It's money from actions, which you sometimes want for purely that reason; in a BM-like deck, it lets you pick up a little bit of free cash in late greening; and of course you like it if you're doing any sort of low-cost alt-vp strategy.

Moat's ranking seems like it would be almost entirely determined by whether you play 2p exclusively or whether you're also counting 3p and 4p. It was lower for me, but I was basically only thinking of 2p, it's obviously way better with more players.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Qvist on July 02, 2012, 04:19:12 pm
Darn, I haven't had a chance to submit yet.  Can I still do so for the other lists?

How can I say "No" to you? Feel free to do so...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 02, 2012, 04:19:29 pm
So many firsts for Chapel makes me sad. The game has evolved so far since the base game, people.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: DStu on July 02, 2012, 04:20:57 pm
So many firsts for Chapel makes me sad. The game has evolved so far since the base game, people.
... and that's why Chapel is so good ...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 04:23:20 pm
Here are my rankings:

    Chapel
    Courtyard
    Fool’s Gold
    Hamlet
    Lighthouse
    Crossroads
    Pawn
    Haven
    Native Village
    Duchess
    Embargo
    Moat
    Cellar
    Pearl Diver
    Herbalist
    Secret Chamber

So I mostly-ish agree with the list, but my big point of disagreement is Duchess. I am the person who ranked it highest, #10. I stand by that. It's better than Chamber, Herbalist, Pearl Diver, Cellar, Moat, and Embargo.

Basically, it's such a great addition to decks where you are going to take on Duchies, and there are surprisingly lots of those. Dukes of course, but also Silk Roads and Gardens, and even Vineyards, because you can gain an Action card as you buy some points. The inspection part is fairly useless since it does it for your opponent too, but the +$2 is usually pretty helpful for mid-to-late game decks that are stalling out.

I may be overrating it a bit--it's competetive with Cellar and Moat and Embargo, I guess. But so much better than Pearl Diver and Herbalist, it isn't even funny.

Now I MUST write an article about it!
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: jsh357 on July 02, 2012, 04:24:58 pm
I'm surprised Duchess is still that low. I mean, it's free! Are people's decks really so trim and lean that taking a terminal silver for free is bad? I ranked it last the first time, but moved it up a lot this time. It's money from actions, which you sometimes want for purely that reason; in a BM-like deck, it lets you pick up a little bit of free cash in late greening; and of course you like it if you're doing any sort of low-cost alt-vp strategy.

Moat's ranking seems like it would be almost entirely determined by whether you play 2p exclusively or whether you're also counting 3p and 4p. It was lower for me, but I was basically only thinking of 2p, it's obviously way better with more players.

I feel the same way about Duchess.  Initially I thought it was pretty bad, but now I get it semi-regularly.  (I ranked it fifth worst)

My general feelings:
- While I do still think Chapel is the best $2 card, I sort of agree with TINAS--it's only slightly above the next few.
- Hamlet is slightly overrated here, though it's top 5 material for sure
- FG should be higher--it's too centralizing for me to think otherwise
- I agree with Moat being up higher, but I'm basing that on its usefulness in multiplayer

This was my list:


Chapel
Courtyard
Fool's Gold
Hamlet
Lighthouse
Haven
Crossroads
Embargo
Native Village
Pawn
Cellar
Duchess
Moat
Herbalist
Pearl Diver
Secret Chamber

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: greatexpectations on July 02, 2012, 04:27:48 pm
i'm not super interested in the card list discussion myself, but i must say i really love the formatting and detail of these posts.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: philosophyguy on July 02, 2012, 04:29:17 pm
I'm surprised Duchess is still that low. I mean, it's free! Are people's decks really so trim and lean that taking a terminal silver for free is bad? I ranked it last the first time, but moved it up a lot this time. It's money from actions, which you sometimes want for purely that reason; in a BM-like deck, it lets you pick up a little bit of free cash in late greening; and of course you like it if you're doing any sort of low-cost alt-vp strategy.

Duchess has definitely grown on me, but even so it's not that great. From my experience, the spy effect tends to benefit your opponent more than you (because they can improve their next turn if they have any drawing cards, while you generally have to wait a turn). Second, unless you get it from a Duchy, it costs a buy for a terminal Silver. Finally, the fact that it's terminal is a reasonable deterrent in most circumstances; it's easy to get more +Actions than you really need with Border Villages but not in many other situations.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: jonts26 on July 02, 2012, 04:29:59 pm
Is no one else bothered by the fact that the Duchess image is crooked?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 04:33:13 pm
I'm surprised Duchess is still that low. I mean, it's free! Are people's decks really so trim and lean that taking a terminal silver for free is bad? I ranked it last the first time, but moved it up a lot this time. It's money from actions, which you sometimes want for purely that reason; in a BM-like deck, it lets you pick up a little bit of free cash in late greening; and of course you like it if you're doing any sort of low-cost alt-vp strategy.

Duchess has definitely grown on me, but even so it's not that great. From my experience, the spy effect tends to benefit your opponent more than you (because they can improve their next turn if they have any drawing cards, while you generally have to wait a turn). Second, unless you get it from a Duchy, it costs a buy for a terminal Silver. Finally, the fact that it's terminal is a reasonable deterrent in most circumstances; it's easy to get more +Actions than you really need with Border Villages but not in many other situations.

I agree that you should almost never buy Duchess (though it's nice if you get screwed on a 5/2 start and you want something like Hunting Party or Lab as your $5, now, because you have the Duchess to improve your purchasing power right away). But... rare is the deck that never gets around to grabbing Duchies, and taking a Duchess or 2 for free is a good proposition probably just as often as it's not.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Autumn on July 02, 2012, 04:33:41 pm
Native Village is obscenely low. I had it ranked #3 (behind Hamlet and Chapel), but honestly I'd be tempted to give it the top spot next time we do this just because of how versatile it is as an engine enabler, as something that combos with hand-size based drawers, as a big turn creator and as something which has its own strategy dedicated to it (namely shoving all your rubbish on the Native Village mat via things that let you see/reorganise the top of your deck and attacks like Ghost Ship and Rabble). I have built up so, so much love for this card these past few days.

And I'll confess, I do probably overrate Chapel. Chapel was for many players the first time we made a big strategic leap in Dominion, so it leaves quite a strong impression, but I probably don't buy it often enough for it to deserve the #1 position on my list.

The only major difference between this list and my own was the Native Village ranking. Everything else seems fair :)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: jsh357 on July 02, 2012, 04:34:02 pm
Is no one else bothered by the fact that the Duchess image is crooked?

I wasn't, but now it's driving me crazy
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 04:35:11 pm
And yes, this list underrates Fool's Gold, though only by a spot or 2. When FG is good, it's absolutely dominating. And it's good a lot of the time.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: jonts26 on July 02, 2012, 04:37:36 pm
Is no one else bothered by the fact that the Duchess image is crooked?

I wasn't, but now it's driving me crazy

You're welcome.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: chwhite on July 02, 2012, 04:37:56 pm
None of my entries were more than two off: basically I swapped Pearl Diver and Moat, and had Pawn a bit higher, but other than that almost no difference.  My rankings were:

1. Chapel
2. Hamlet
3. Lighthouse
4. Courtyard
5. Crossroads
6. Fool's Gold
7. Pawn
8. Haven
9. Native Village
10. Embargo
11. Cellar
12. Pearl Diver
13. Herbalist
14. Moat
15. Secret Chamber
16. Duchess

Fool's Gold at #6 is probably the rank you will all consider most controversial- but I still think it's outright skippable way too often, even though it can dominate boards.  Basically it is killed dead by cursing and many strong engines in a way that none of the higher cards are.  (It's also hit pretty hard by multiplayer, for what that's worth.)

As for Duchess as dead last: my opinion of it has gone up quite a bit since the last list.  But my opinion of Secret Chamber has gone up even more; it has a surprising amount of combo potential.  I do like Duchess in some 5/2 openings, and yes it's strong in Duke/SR games... but we don't rank Workshop highly because it's good with Gardens.  And when it comes to getting Duchess free with Duchies, well to be perfectly honest the vast majority of the time I'd prefer to not have to buy Duchy in the first place!

EDIT:

But... rare is the deck that never gets around to grabbing Duchies

No, winning is the deck that never gets around to grabbing Duchies.  At least in my experience.  ;)
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Fabian on July 02, 2012, 04:42:05 pm
Put me firmly in the Duchess #16 camp. It's not that it's literally never useful, but it's rare, and when it is worth having, it's rarely important. Plus it's basically never worth buying in the early/midgame. Contrast this with Secret Chamber, which can be a very key card for the times when it is useful. Putting it up against any of the other cards is crazy to me.

I think it's pretty close between FG, Courtyard and Hamlet for spots #2-#4. I put Hamlet at 4, when it maybe should be 3 (over Courtyard). They enable kinda different decks, I think it's tough to clearly say which is better.

I put Cellar at #13, which in retrospect is the ranking I have the most problem with. It probably deserves just about the spot it got in this list.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 04:49:10 pm
Well, put me in the Secret Chamber firmly dead last camp. It's actually better than I used to think it was, but it's still last. Sure, it's nice for Ambassador, Minion, Scrying Pool, both in partly defending those cards, and if you have those cards. There aren't many more situations than that, though.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 02, 2012, 04:55:59 pm
I doubt anyone wants to see my list so I will spoiler it to protect everybody's mental heath. You have been warned:


Lighthouse       
Hamlet           
Courtyard     
Chapel         
Pawn             
Fool's Gold       
Native Village   
Embargo           
Crossroads         
Cellar             
Pearl Diver       
Haven           
Moat               
Herbalist         
Secret Chamber
Duchess           


And yeah, I think I've got that pretty much right. Maybe Fool's Gold is one spot too low out of hate-spite, but that's about all.
Duchess while theoretically not a bad card for free, is the kind of card you think "yeah, why not" and then the game ends before you even get to play it, so it doesn't really matter that you chose to take it anyway.
Pearl Diver is just not bad. It often helps save good cards from missing shuffles and otherwise is a cantrip, so what harm does it do? (Yes, I am biased against terminal draw BM. That's just not my style.)
Native Village can just do so much more than Crossroads, and works every time you play it and not just the first. If you're judging Crossroads based on it's abilty to potentially draw cards, then man, there's an article somewhere about that.
And Haven... I want to play my good cards now, not next turn.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Autumn on July 02, 2012, 04:58:03 pm
Secret Chamber vs Duchess.. put it this way..

I have never played a game in which Duchess has played a significant role in the outcome. On the other hand, a couple days ago I played a vicious Pirate Ship 3 player game where there was very, very little virtual money available and no trashing available: Secret Chamber was pretty much essential to winning in order that you could protect your money and stop the Pirate Ships from getting too strong (and sacrificing Copper if you knew the other player was likely to be hit this turn anyway because they hadn't revealed a Secret Chamber).

Duchess is occasionally slightly useful, whereas in a few rare scenarios Secret Chamber is good and even rarer almost essential (though yeah, it's a bad card). I count a card that is good 3% of the time as better than a card that is marginally better than meh 15% of the time (making up these stats, but you know what I mean..).
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 05:06:43 pm
Secret Chamber vs Duchess.. put it this way..

I have never played a game in which Duchess has played a significant role in the outcome. On the other hand, a couple days ago I played a vicious Pirate Ship 3 player game where there was very, very little virtual money available and no trashing available: Secret Chamber was pretty much essential to winning in order that you could protect your money and stop the Pirate Ships from getting too strong (and sacrificing Copper if you knew the other player was likely to be hit this turn anyway because they hadn't revealed a Secret Chamber).

Duchess is occasionally slightly useful, whereas in a few rare scenarios Secret Chamber is good and even rarer almost essential (though yeah, it's a bad card). I count a card that is good 3% of the time as better than a card that is marginally better than meh 15% of the time (making up these stats, but you know what I mean..).

I'm pretty sure I've had more games where Duchess had a significant role in the outcome than where Secret Chamber did.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 05:07:06 pm
I would check, but I think CR is down right?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Eevee on July 02, 2012, 05:20:22 pm
Secret Chamber vs Duchess.. put it this way..

I have never played a game in which Duchess has played a significant role in the outcome. On the other hand, a couple days ago I played a vicious Pirate Ship 3 player game where there was very, very little virtual money available and no trashing available: Secret Chamber was pretty much essential to winning in order that you could protect your money and stop the Pirate Ships from getting too strong (and sacrificing Copper if you knew the other player was likely to be hit this turn anyway because they hadn't revealed a Secret Chamber).

Duchess is occasionally slightly useful, whereas in a few rare scenarios Secret Chamber is good and even rarer almost essential (though yeah, it's a bad card). I count a card that is good 3% of the time as better than a card that is marginally better than meh 15% of the time (making up these stats, but you know what I mean..).

I'm pretty sure I've had more games where Duchess had a significant role in the outcome than where Secret Chamber did.

+1, duchess is good guys. Not surprised chwhite doesnt see it, given his hate for explorer.. (oh and workshop is a fine card too.)

Courtyard is definitely stronger than smithy and I think it would have deserved 2nd.  I think native village is a tad overrated but man, looking at that top 9.. 2 cost cards are good these days!

The descriptions were nice to read, good job on those.

Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: chwhite on July 02, 2012, 05:23:08 pm
Secret Chamber vs Duchess.. put it this way..

I have never played a game in which Duchess has played a significant role in the outcome. On the other hand, a couple days ago I played a vicious Pirate Ship 3 player game where there was very, very little virtual money available and no trashing available: Secret Chamber was pretty much essential to winning in order that you could protect your money and stop the Pirate Ships from getting too strong (and sacrificing Copper if you knew the other player was likely to be hit this turn anyway because they hadn't revealed a Secret Chamber).

Duchess is occasionally slightly useful, whereas in a few rare scenarios Secret Chamber is good and even rarer almost essential (though yeah, it's a bad card). I count a card that is good 3% of the time as better than a card that is marginally better than meh 15% of the time (making up these stats, but you know what I mean..).

I'm pretty sure I've had more games where Duchess had a significant role in the outcome than where Secret Chamber did.

+1, duchess is good guys. Not surprised chwhite doesnt see it, given his hate for explorer.. (oh and workshop is a fine card too.)

Courtyard is definitely stronger than smithy and I think it would have deserved 2nd.  I think native village is a tad overrated but man, looking at that top 9.. 2 cost cards are good these days!

The descriptions were nice to read, good job on those.



It's not my hate for Explorer... it's my hate for Duchy.  I have something like a -7.00 Effect With/+8.00 Effect Without for that card.  When I buy it, I lose; when I avoid it, I win. 

And I don't hate Duchess actually.  I don't hate any of the $2 or $3 cards (actually I do hate Fool's Gold, but that's a different kind of hate :P).  Honestly it's pretty close between those two and Moat (which I only ranked as high as I did because of multiplayer), and any reordering of those three cards is reasonable.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: popsofctown on July 02, 2012, 05:33:21 pm
It's cool that the deviation on courtyard decreased.  People have been talking about the card, maybe there was an article?  So I think f.ds has spread the word on the underspend that isn't an underspend.


I think Fool's Gold is hard to rate because it is purchased so much in the games where it is purchased.  Even if the metric is "how many games do you gain one or more of these", the proportion of time I spend buying Fool's Gold skews my memory.  As does having a Base/Hinterlands IRL collection. 

I'm enjoying Chapel growing weaker as the new sets come out.  I love getting a chance to actually think and decide whether I want a chapel.

Duchess is good.  etc.  If you plan for it ahead of time you can make room in your deck for the terminaliciousness and it's a free Silver.  A nice thing about using it in real Dominion is that you can use it to control your opponent's reshuffles, if his deck is empty, which is obvious yet blocked information on Iso, you can trigger a reshuffle so that he can't get another purchase in for his next run through.  Or you can trigger your own reshuffle and buy a victory card.  That is, when Duchess collides with another terminal, that choice is sometimes created.  Which is an edge case with little impact on the power of the card.  BUT, man is it an example of why I think Public Information Dominion needs to become a thing.  Should my opponents hide a curtain over their deck so I don't know if it's empty?  Because I can't "count" the cards in his deck.  Sort of like how I can "remember" how many victory points I have.  And "notice" the edge of a second from top Trader in my opponent's discard pile.

There was some other card I was going to talk about but now I can't remember :(
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Eevee on July 02, 2012, 05:35:59 pm
Secret Chamber vs Duchess.. put it this way..

I have never played a game in which Duchess has played a significant role in the outcome. On the other hand, a couple days ago I played a vicious Pirate Ship 3 player game where there was very, very little virtual money available and no trashing available: Secret Chamber was pretty much essential to winning in order that you could protect your money and stop the Pirate Ships from getting too strong (and sacrificing Copper if you knew the other player was likely to be hit this turn anyway because they hadn't revealed a Secret Chamber).

Duchess is occasionally slightly useful, whereas in a few rare scenarios Secret Chamber is good and even rarer almost essential (though yeah, it's a bad card). I count a card that is good 3% of the time as better than a card that is marginally better than meh 15% of the time (making up these stats, but you know what I mean..).

I'm pretty sure I've had more games where Duchess had a significant role in the outcome than where Secret Chamber did.

+1, duchess is good guys. Not surprised chwhite doesnt see it, given his hate for explorer.. (oh and workshop is a fine card too.)

Courtyard is definitely stronger than smithy and I think it would have deserved 2nd.  I think native village is a tad overrated but man, looking at that top 9.. 2 cost cards are good these days!

The descriptions were nice to read, good job on those.



It's not my hate for Explorer... it's my hate for Duchy.  I have something like a -7.00 Effect With/+8.00 Effect Without for that card.  When I buy it, I lose; when I avoid it, I win. 

And I don't hate Duchess actually.  I don't hate any of the $2 or $3 cards (actually I do hate Fool's Gold, but that's a different kind of hate :P).  Honestly it's pretty close between those two and Moat (which I only ranked as high as I did because of multiplayer), and any reordering of those three cards is reasonable.
CR stats for duchy are not very reliable though.  :) I'd say duchess, explorer and duchy are kind of on a same boat anyways.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: chwhite on July 02, 2012, 05:37:22 pm
It's cool that the deviation on courtyard decreased.  People have been talking about the card, maybe there was an article?  So I think f.ds has spread the word on the underspend that isn't an underspend.


I think Fool's Gold is hard to rate because it is purchased so much in the games where it is purchased.  Even if the metric is "how many games do you gain one or more of these", the proportion of time I spend buying Fool's Gold skews my memory.  As does having a Base/Hinterlands IRL collection. 

I'm enjoying Chapel growing weaker as the new sets come out.  I love getting a chance to actually think and decide whether I want a chapel.

Duchess is good.  etc.  If you plan for it ahead of time you can make room in your deck for the terminaliciousness and it's a free Silver.  A nice thing about using it in real Dominion is that you can use it to control your opponent's reshuffles, if his deck is empty, which is obvious yet blocked information on Iso, you can trigger a reshuffle so that he can't get another purchase in for his next run through.  Or you can trigger your own reshuffle and buy a victory card.  That is, when Duchess collides with another terminal, that choice is sometimes created.  Which is an edge case with little impact on the power of the card.  BUT, man is it an example of why I think Public Information Dominion needs to become a thing.  Should my opponents hide a curtain over their deck so I don't know if it's empty?  Because I can't "count" the cards in his deck.  Sort of like how I can "remember" how many victory points I have.  And "notice" the edge of a second from top Trader in my opponent's discard pile.

There was some other card I was going to talk about but now I can't remember :(

You can see if their deck is empty on iso.  It should show that when you click info.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: brokoli on July 02, 2012, 05:46:27 pm
I totally agree with TINAS. Chapel is way overrated. I think I put it #3 or #4. I would buy Lighthouse and Hamlet far more often. Even crossroads.
And in most Big money boards, chapel is totally useless.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 02, 2012, 05:49:06 pm
This Duchess debate is going to be repeated a million times for different cads because people rank with different criteria. Some people argue that Duchess and Pearl Diver shouldn't be so low because you are willing to take them more often, while others argue that while you take them, they are not often really impactful. I'm in the second camp. I basically said the cards that deserve high ranks are the ones that are more likely to catch my eye when I first look at the board and plan a strategy.

So from my perspective, the biggest argument I have is with Embargo. Even when you don't buy Embargo, it can be a big impact card. Its presence shuts down a lot of Potion openings as well as stuff like Fool's Gold or IGG rushes or Duke strategies. You can use it to lengthen games by Embargoing Province/Gold to give yourself time to build an engine. You can strengthen you 5/2 opening by Embargoing the critical 5. And even when it's not a big impact card, it can be useful as a 1-shot terminal Silver if you get stuck with $2. I ranked it #6.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 02, 2012, 05:50:52 pm
I totally agree with TINAS. Chapel is way overrated. I think I put it #3 or #4. I would buy Lighthouse and Hamlet far more often. Even crossroads.
And in most Big money boards, chapel is totally useless.
In most BM boards, hamlet is useless as well...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Fabian on July 02, 2012, 05:55:22 pm
Yeah I mostly agree with Emulator, and I think I mostly rate cards like he does. If a card is worth 0* (cards are never worth negative since in theory you'd never make the mistake of buying a card when you shouldn't) 95% of the time and worth 3* 5% of the time I'm going to prefer it to the card that's worth 0* 90% of the time and 0.2* 10% of the time. Hi Duchess!

I think the same kind of reasoning is why I slightly prefer Fool's Gold over Hamlet and Courtyard. A much less clear cut example, because they're all both "good" and "impactful", but I think it kinda applies.

* On the Fabian Scale of Arbtirariness
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Eevee on July 02, 2012, 06:00:07 pm
I totally agree with TINAS. Chapel is way overrated. I think I put it #3 or #4. I would buy Lighthouse and Hamlet far more often. Even crossroads.
And in most Big money boards, chapel is totally useless.
In most BM boards, hamlet is useless as well...
.. and on attackless boards, lighthouse is crap (its very good against strong attacks obviously, just pointing out the stupidity of that argument).

edit: that makes pearl diver seem so good. "it goes ok with ANY deck other than bm-terminal draw""
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: chwhite on July 02, 2012, 06:03:29 pm
I totally agree with TINAS. Chapel is way overrated. I think I put it #3 or #4. I would buy Lighthouse and Hamlet far more often. Even crossroads.
And in most Big money boards, chapel is totally useless.
In most BM boards, hamlet is useless as well...
.. and on attackless boards, lighthouse is crap (its very good against strong attacks obviously, just pointing out the stupidity of that argument).

edit: that makes pearl diver seem so good. "it goes ok with ANY deck other than bm-terminal draw""

Not true: Lighthouse is also preferable to Silver in engines built around Watchtower, Library, or (double-)Tac.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Jfrisch on July 02, 2012, 06:19:47 pm
maybe it's just my style of play but courtyard seems clearly, clearly, better than hamlet (and chapel obviously does). hamlet's a cheap source of potential +action/buy which works well with draw to x and menagerie. It's good but it feels really overrated to me. I mean, in the majority of games workers village is a lot better (excluding cost). Whereas courtyard is a premier BM enabler which combos decently well with other BM stuff as well, helps with tournaments, can act as a pseudo-haven... Can someone explain hamlet over courtyard, I mean, what metric are you using?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: brokoli on July 02, 2012, 06:23:02 pm
I totally agree with TINAS. Chapel is way overrated. I think I put it #3 or #4. I would buy Lighthouse and Hamlet far more often. Even crossroads.
And in most Big money boards, chapel is totally useless.
In most BM boards, hamlet is useless as well...

If you play something like Bureaucrat - BM or Merchant ship - BM, you could buy a hamlet, but not a chapel...
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: popsofctown on July 02, 2012, 06:26:37 pm
Bureacrat BM? that's an edge case you can't bring that up.  There are so few power vacuums for that.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: O on July 02, 2012, 06:32:29 pm
I'm pretty sure I put chapel at #4 (maybe I was a #3, but I think 4), below Courtyard, Hamlet, and Lighthouse. And I stand by that vote.

Fools gold is certainly NOT underrated; it is perfectly rated.

Theory underrated herbalist pretty terribly, it should be above moat definitely.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Jedit on July 02, 2012, 06:42:47 pm
Qvist, are you going to update your sig as you go, or do it all at the end?
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 06:56:11 pm
maybe it's just my style of play but courtyard seems clearly, clearly, better than hamlet (and chapel obviously does). hamlet's a cheap source of potential +action/buy which works well with draw to x and menagerie. It's good but it feels really overrated to me. I mean, in the majority of games workers village is a lot better (excluding cost). Whereas courtyard is a premier BM enabler which combos decently well with other BM stuff as well, helps with tournaments, can act as a pseudo-haven... Can someone explain hamlet over courtyard, I mean, what metric are you using?

I agree, I have Courtyard over Hamlet. Both are great cards, but Courtyard is very nearly the best at what it does. Considering it's price, Hamlet is also very, very, very good at what it does, but not quite as good as Courtyard.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: chwhite on July 02, 2012, 07:05:19 pm
Why I have Hamlet over Courtyard:

Courtyard is very strong in BM, better than most things which aren't Masq, Wharf, or cursers, and often worth getting alongside those cards.  But the other 9 cards will, some fairly large fraction of the time, dictate engine, and Courtyard is often not that great in engines.

Hamlet, conversely, is obviously not so hot in BM.  However, since it provides +Action and +Buy for the low low price of $2, it gets you most of the way to engine viability all by itself.  Basically, I think the mere presence of Hamlet does more to skew the game towards the sorts of decks it's best for in a way that I don't think Courtyard quite does.

Again, as with the Duchess-Moat-SC trio, I do think it's pretty close between Hamlet, Lighthouse, and Courtyard, and other orderings of those three are eminently reasonable.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Robz888 on July 02, 2012, 08:14:55 pm
Hmm, it looks like these lists is going to be AltVeeps and Money peeps vs. Engineers. (Maybe the last set of lists was like that, too, and I just hadn't realized I was such an AltVeepMoneyPeep yet).
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Tables on July 02, 2012, 08:27:21 pm
There's three things that I noticed that I thought were especially strange here.

1: Lighthouse getting a 1st. It protects from attacks, which is often nice but also often irrelevant, and is otherwise a gimped silver for when you hit $2. When (important) attacks are around, yeah, Lighthouse is pretty great and definitely up there with the other $2's, but when they aren't (which is more often than not), it's very meh... I'd say probably not much better than a (bought) Duchess.

2) Chapel being 4th. Okay, yes, I know trashing isn't as important as it once was, and strong trashers at different price points (notable Remake) make Chapel itself less important, but whenever there's an even somewhat decent engine/combo on the board (which is like 70% of random boards), or a cursing attack (which probably brings that up to 80%+), Chapel is somewhere from good to Amazing. I struggle to see how Courtyard and/or Hamlet can be argued to be that useful, that often. They're great cards, but, well, they just aren't THAT great.

3) Duchess still getting large numbers of last places. In many cases, I'll happily buy one on a 5/2 opening with no other $2's - if I opened with a terminal, it's risking a not-even-that nasty collision, but otherwise +$2 for the 2nd shuffle is very nice. Late game of course, or whenever you're Duchy buying, it's a little extra oil in your rapidly greening deck, which can give you the edge. It's not a great card, but I find it helps a lot more than things like Secret Chamber, which needs specific 2 or 3 card combos to be even vaguely effective.

I think it's clear where I'm going with this. Vote: TINAS
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Thisisnotasmile on July 03, 2012, 02:37:43 am
I stand by my list but I respect your right to disagree. OMGYS Vote: Tables
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: brokoli on July 03, 2012, 02:59:02 am
but when they aren't (which is more often than not), it's very meh... I'd say probably not much better than a (bought) Duchess.

Disagree. Firstly, Lighthouse give the +1 action which is nice and much better than duchess.
Also, lighthouse is very good in engines : double tactician, fishing village - library, menagerie, etc...
When I have $2 to spend, lighthouse is almost always my first choice...

Even without the protection part, lighthouse would be a powerful 2$ card.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Qvist on July 03, 2012, 08:11:15 am
i'm not super interested in the card list discussion myself, but i must say i really love the formatting and detail of these posts.

Thanks for the positive feedback.

Qvist, are you going to update your sig as you go, or do it all at the end?

I updated my signature. But I'm a restricted in the length. So now, if a list is splitted up, you won't have a link to get to the specific part. But you can either link to the meta page, where all links are listed. And I will also add links at the end of each part to get to the next part. I hope this will help.

---

Really interesting thoughts on the ranks. My thoughts:
Regarding Secret Chamber vs. Duchess vs. Pearl Diver: I rank #14 Secret Chamber, #15 Duchess, #16 Pearl Diver. I've seen games where Secret Chamber was a game-winning buy. I've seen games where Duchess were very important buys, but I can't remember games where Pearl Diver buys were really game-changing. I try to ask myself before I rank: "How much does the presence of this card change the board?" Have you ever seen a game, where the presence of Pearl Diver was important? But still these 3 cards are clearly the worst 3 IMO.

Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: popsofctown on July 03, 2012, 10:09:02 am
Farming Village + Pearl Diver is hot.  Scrying Pool and Duchess interactions too.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Schneau on July 03, 2012, 10:13:53 am
Am I miscounting things, or are your numbers off? You say there were 62 lists submitted, but as for first place votes there were 2 for FG, 2 for Lighthouse, 1 for Courtyard, 3 for Hamlet, and 57 for Chapel. That adds up to 65, not 62. Or maybe you got some extra ballots that you added in without updating the top number?

Otherwise, I love all the stats here, great job Qvist!
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Qvist on July 03, 2012, 10:17:46 am
Am I miscounting things, or are your numbers off? You say there were 62 lists submitted, but as for first place votes there were 2 for FG, 2 for Lighthouse, 1 for Courtyard, 3 for Hamlet, and 57 for Chapel. That adds up to 65, not 62. Or maybe you got some extra ballots that you added in without updating the top number?

Otherwise, I love all the stats here, great job Qvist!

I don't know if it was a typo or a miscalculation, but you're right, I received 65 lists not 62. You're all very watchful. ;)
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Powerman on July 03, 2012, 11:30:44 am
Thoughts:

As far as the bottom goes:  Secret Chamber = Terrible.  Duchess = Terrible.  Pearl Diver = Terrible.  Herbalist = Terrible.  Moat (2player) = Terrible.  With that said, they mostly have a use.  Herbalist is good for decks that need a potion, outside of that I don't think I have ever/ will ever buy it.  Moat is good in multiplayer, outside of that it's pretty bad.  Pearl Diver... talk about irrelevancy.  I do like it in SP decks, alright to buy 1 or 2 for HoP, but man... talk about a weak benefit.  Duchess, I guess I like it on the right 5/2 board, but after that I don't ever find a use for it. Although for free I sometimes just take it for fun :)  And Secret Chamber seems useful at first, but it's just poor.  The reaction part I have never found any use for, and the discard part isn't awful but it's far from good.

Ranking them is tough, but I guess the order seems about correct, although MAYBE duchess eeks out pearl diver just for 5/2 openings.

For the middle: Cellar I've been finding less and less useful as I've stopped playing base and added in all the expansions (Plus it's worse than warehouse...).  Embargo I actually like more and more, if for nothing else the mind games/ strategy changes it causes.  It's so fun to open with it after your opponent gets a potion and crush their spirits, otherwise if you have a deck that doesn't need silver embargoing that can hurt your opponent too.  Pawn is useful in a few situations, but rarely does much more as it's easiest to go card/action :D  Native Village is another card I'm starting to like more and more, but it also isn't all that good.  The card drawing portion is worse than vanilla village, but if you have the ability to wait until you get at least 4-5 cards (or more!) it can lead to some good hands.  Haven's a cute little card, doesn't seem to do much, but it has it's place in many decks.  I guess the only change I'd make is embargo over pawn just for the game change ability.

At the top:  I really don't have too many comments as all of these cards are useful at times,  and other times they can be poor.  But I will say that I think Hamlet is a bit overrated.  Its great for ending a 3rd pile... but the discard penalty is harsher than it appears.  I realize that in lieu of other +Action/+Buy it can work, but it makes building a engine tough.  Basically the difference between this and WV is huge, and while they are different costs WV kills hamlet.  Courtyard is one of the few BM enablers I'll actually play, and FG with support is almost always the best strategy on the board.

Good list though!
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Young Nick on July 03, 2012, 11:42:54 am
I haven't read all of the discussion, and I did not submit a list, but I have a feeling that as a community, we underrate Herbalist. I mean, it's not THAT great, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was better with BM than we assumed. Being able to get an extra play of your Gold in a reshuffle, especially late game, seems like it would a huge benefit. It is one of those cards that I think needs experimenting with and seems more useful than just about any of the other bottom-tier $2 cards.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: ehunt on July 03, 2012, 03:41:39 pm
my top five agree with the list. towards the bottom, lots of underrating. i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

everyone who has said that no game depends on duchess has almost surely lost a game for failure to notice duchess. if she weren't free, she'd be the worst 2, but she's so often free. it's like saying peddler is terrible cause it costs 8 for a worse version of market.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Tdog on July 03, 2012, 03:50:37 pm
Duchess should be looked at as a mini-hoard, to help mitigate the effects of greening. It shouldn't be looked at on its own.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: ftl on July 03, 2012, 04:05:48 pm
i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

Maybe someone who plays exclusively 4-player?
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: jonts26 on July 03, 2012, 04:14:54 pm
i have moat and duchess higher than most people (although who the hell put moat at 3?)

Maybe someone who plays exclusively 4-player?

I think it would have to be exclusively 6-player to get that high.
Title: Re: THE Dominion Card List(s) 2.0: $2 cards posted
Post by: Jedit on July 03, 2012, 05:00:48 pm
Regarding Secret Chamber vs. Duchess vs. Pearl Diver: I rank #14 Secret Chamber, #15 Duchess, #16 Pearl Diver. I've seen games where Secret Chamber was a game-winning buy. I've seen games where Duchess were very important buys, but I can't remember games where Pearl Diver buys were really game-changing. I try to ask myself before I rank: "How much does the presence of this card change the board?" Have you ever seen a game, where the presence of Pearl Diver was important? But still these 3 cards are clearly the worst 3 IMO.

It's true that Pearl Diver never wins the game - as per, I'm excluding scenarios involving Throne Room/KC as they make any +C/+A card insane - but it's also never a card you're upset to draw because it's only wasted if you draw it from your last terminal.  Duchess improves your opponent's draws, especially if he's greening or you're playing Spy.  Secret Chamber is generally speaking a terminal Copper with a discard attached that's only really useful for buying Grand Markets or neutralising Minions.  They're both at best narrowly useful, which in my eye makes them poorer buys than a card that will at the least replace itself without cost.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Teproc on July 03, 2012, 05:40:35 pm
Huh, my list is really close to the result. Only differences are that I have Moat/Cellar the other way around, which I'm honestly not sure is right, and then I have a few bigger differences in the top spot, namely...

Lighthouse 4th ? I mean, I have it 6th, and I really hesitated putting it ahead of Haven which I have an irrational love for. Yeah, it's good against attacks. It sometimes is somewhat useful in other situations. That's not as exciting as being a strategy on its own, being an excellent BM card or being a good village in the late or early game.

I mean, I guess I could see it over Crossroads, which is my 5, but definitely not over Courtyard or Fool's Gold. I had FG 3rd, but I think Courtyard should probably be 3rd now. I find my rating of FG to be strongly influenced by the recent games I played with/against it, and I probably had just lost while ignoring it when I submitted my list.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: jvb on July 04, 2012, 02:50:03 am
Embargo might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.

Can you do this? I thought that you can't TR/KC cards that trash themselves?
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on July 04, 2012, 02:53:29 am
Embargo might be the first card in the list that's worth to play with King's Court.

Can you do this? I thought that you can't TR/KC cards that trash themselves?

It depends on the wording.  KC/TR will work with Embargo.  They work with Feast too.  The text on these cards give you the effects regardless if the card is trashed or not (though trashing of course occurs).  An example of something that doesn't work is Mining Village.  MV says that you get +$2 if you trash the card, and you can only trash the card once.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: jvb on July 04, 2012, 03:11:53 am
Oh, I always thought that it worked the way that you trash the card so you have no card to play the second or third time.  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: iangoth on July 04, 2012, 03:32:29 am
I haven't read all of the discussion, and I did not submit a list, but I have a feeling that as a community, we underrate Herbalist. I mean, it's not THAT great, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was better with BM than we assumed. Being able to get an extra play of your Gold in a reshuffle, especially late game, seems like it would a huge benefit. It is one of those cards that I think needs experimenting with and seems more useful than just about any of the other bottom-tier $2 cards.

I don't know, it seems reasonably ranked to me. I think I put herbalist dead last, though I stupidly didn't record any of my rankings. Herbalist + BM is essentially tied with BMU (if anything, a hair worse), according to the simulator. In a BM setting, a terminal copper just won't cut it in general. In an engine, you might want an herbalist for the +buy, but virtually any other +buy card would be preferable. Topdecking your treasure might even be disadvantageous, since what you really want in an engine is for your action chain to go off. There are a few combos, like alchemist/herbalist or herbalist/philosopher's stone, but I can't think of anything else.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I really don't think secret chamber deserves last place (I think I put it at #14). Sure, it's terrible in most games, but when it's good, it's usually the key card. Double tactician/secret chamber or scrying pool/secret chamber, for example. People tend to forget how useful the reaction can be, too. Of course, it can directly defend against some attacks, like minion and swindler, but perhaps more importantly, it lets you tweak your current and next hands any time you're attacked. You can use it to smooth out terminal collisions or get an extra chance to find your village. If you're attacked often enough, you can keep passing the secret chamber to the next hand, so you get the benefits of the reaction without having to actually play the card so much.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 04, 2012, 03:40:21 am
Regarding Herbalist, I think it's appropriately placed. It's better than the bottom 3, but not useful all that often. It's not going to be good in BM. For the most part it's only slightly better than a terminal Lighthouse ($1 this turn and a minor buff to next turn). The times it's good are going to be with non-standard treasures like Potion/Plat/FG/Hoard/HoP, and obviously as simply a +buy when there are no other options.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: O on July 05, 2012, 06:24:27 pm
Regarding Herbalist, I think it's appropriately placed. It's better than the bottom 3, but not useful all that often. It's not going to be good in BM. For the most part it's only slightly better than a terminal Lighthouse ($1 this turn and a minor buff to next turn). The times it's good are going to be with non-standard treasures like Potion/Plat/FG/Hoard/HoP, and obviously as simply a +buy when there are no other options.

All of this sounds far more useful than Cellar and Moat.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: a exciting bro on July 17, 2012, 10:54:16 pm
A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

My opinion of Herbalist is steadily becoming more favorable. It is passable a lot, but when it's usable it's usually a great value.

I'm also not to wild about crossroads. Pawn is better.

Wish I would have noticed this earlier.... Exciting stuff. I'm one of those bros who probably would think twice about putting chapel at number one... and then chicken out and put it there anyway. Courtyard is close IMO.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on July 18, 2012, 12:11:43 am
I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

So people have different ways of ranking things, but in my opinion, the fact that the presence of Embargo significantly changes the set of viable strategies makes it a very impactful, and thus "good" card, even if you don't always but it.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Robz888 on July 18, 2012, 12:17:54 am
A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

My opinion of Herbalist is steadily becoming more favorable. It is passable a lot, but when it's usable it's usually a great value.

I'm also not to wild about crossroads. Pawn is better.

Wish I would have noticed this earlier.... Exciting stuff. I'm one of those bros who probably would think twice about putting chapel at number one... and then chicken out and put it there anyway. Courtyard is close IMO.

I strongly disagree with you about Embargo.

I mostly disagree with you about Crossroads and Pawn.

I agree with you about Chapel and Courtyard.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Jedit on July 18, 2012, 07:58:44 am
A few nitpicks:

I'd put embargo in the bottom 3. Good players seem to notice it is there and refrain from going for Duke-Duchy, IGG, Governor rush etc.

Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: a exciting bro on July 18, 2012, 07:11:59 pm
Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

Really the only time I buy it is when I only have $2 and I'm not worried about not being able to play it, or my opponent already started a strategy that lives and dies buy one certain card.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Jedit on July 18, 2012, 07:39:30 pm
Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

So?  The only time you're going to worry about that is if you and your opponent choose the same strategy.  If that happens, and if you can't gain an initial edge on that strategy or there's no foil card that you can pick up a couple of copies of then shut out, then you either don't buy Embargo or you buy it for something to do and place the token on something marginal.  If you're able to pick up an early Province before using Embargo, put the token on Provinces so you'll win in a 4-4 split.

Embargo is by no means a great card, but it's not being overrated on this list.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: iangoth on July 18, 2012, 09:15:32 pm
Which is the point of buying it.  You're not looking to give them Curses, you want them to not take the Embargoed option because you don't want to play against it. 

I understand that. I just think that's pretty awful. You can force your opponent to not choose a certain strategy, which you can't do either.

Really the only time I buy it is when I only have $2 and I'm not worried about not being able to play it, or my opponent already started a strategy that lives and dies buy one certain card.

There are other uses which you may not have considered. You can use embargo to solidify an early lead. For example, If you get an early gold, you might be able to embargo the golds before your opponent can get one, or you might embargo the silvers, knowing your opponent will have a hard time getting to gold without more money.

Late game, if you're ahead, you can embargo the duchies and/or estates to make it near impossible to catch up.

Opening with an embargo can be a strong option, especially for player two, when there are two strong strategies on the board. Wait to see what your opponent picks, embargo it, then pursue the other one.

Simply using embargo to block cards you don't like is a valid use, too. Even the best of us have cards we just don't play well, or if you're not willing to admit that, then at least you can block cards with a high luck factor.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: hobo386 on July 18, 2012, 09:34:47 pm
Embargo is also great in alchemy decks.  If you slap it on alchemist, familiar, university, or sometimes even golem, you can ruin an opponent.  (It is still situational, since with decent trashing, an alchemist deck can ignore a few curses. And it is only good only familiar if you have another cursing option, and you can slap it down before they get at least their second. Like 5-2 Mountebanke embargo vs their silver potion type stuff)
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: brokoli on July 19, 2012, 02:39:35 am
I think embargo would be one of the best card if it had an on-gain effect (for instance, 5/2 buy an IGG, an embargo and embargo immediatly the IGG). Because the big problem of embargo is to draw it and play it at the right time.
But embargo is still a great card and one of my favourite concepts. I really love how embargo can counter some strategies and this is why it is my favourite $2 card, along with crossroads.
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: eHalcyon on September 14, 2012, 05:05:28 pm
Bumping this thread because it might be useful to consider the existing $2 cards when coming up with a $2 fan card for rinkworks' design contest.

(Edit: and don't forget Beggar, Squire and Vagrant.)
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Davio on September 14, 2012, 05:51:08 pm
Well, most of the $2 cards are pretty unique and so is mine.  ;D
Title: Re: The Best Dominion Cards List 2012 Ed.2: $2 cards
Post by: Schneau on September 14, 2012, 08:12:07 pm
Well, most of the $2 cards are pretty unique and so is mine.  ;D

Mine doesn't cost $2.