Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 07:00:47 pm

Title: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 07:00:47 pm
I.

What's missing?

Masquerade
Governor
Torturer

_________

II.

a. The following Kingdom cards share a certain quality.  They share this quality regardless of what the other 9 Kingdom cards are.  What is this quality?

Black Market
Governor
Forge
Jack of All Trades
Trader
Treasure Map


b. Other cards share this quality, but only in certain Kingdoms. 

i. For example, in all Kingdoms that contain Tunnel, another card shares this quality.  What is it?

ii. In all Kingdoms that contain Island, another two cards share this quality.  What are they?
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: permanoob on June 07, 2012, 08:27:04 pm
I.
Looks very similar to my puzzle actually. I'm guessing Bishop, Cutpurse, and Bureacrat, with the condition being getting your opponent to a zero card hand before their turn begins
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 08:37:46 pm
I.
Looks very similar to my puzzle actually. I'm guessing Bishop, Cutpurse, and Bureacrat, with the condition being getting your opponent to a zero card hand before their turn begins

So far as I can figure, there's only one other card that fits on this list.  Not one of those, sorry!
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: DG on June 07, 2012, 09:02:08 pm
I - Council Room, although Possession can do it too if you loosen the definition!
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 09:25:25 pm
I - Council Room, although Possession can do it too if you loosen the definition!

No, and never!
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Galzria on June 07, 2012, 10:19:53 pm
I: What are, "cards that can increase your opponents hand size during your turn?"
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: heron on June 07, 2012, 10:21:42 pm
For the first puzzle, could the answer be Vault?
I kind of doubt it, but...
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 11:11:17 pm
I: What are, "cards that can increase your opponents hand size during your turn?"

I mean, sure, but no.  We're looking for a quality that only applies to these three cards and one other.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Galzria on June 07, 2012, 11:20:57 pm
I: What are, "cards that can increase your opponents hand size during your turn?"

I mean, sure, but no.  We're looking for a quality that only applies to these three cards and one other.

To be fair, outside of Council Room what other card does this apply to?

Still, not the subset you were looking for, so back to three drawing board.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 07, 2012, 11:30:01 pm
I: What are, "cards that can increase your opponents hand size during your turn?"

I mean, sure, but no.  We're looking for a quality that only applies to these three cards and one other.

To be fair, outside of Council Room what other card does this apply to?

More than zero.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: DG on June 08, 2012, 06:56:18 am
Quote
To be fair, outside of Council Room what other card does this apply to?

I've remembered that Margarve belongs there too.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 08, 2012, 11:14:37 am
I.
Looks very similar to my puzzle actually. I'm guessing Bishop, Cutpurse, and Bureacrat, with the condition being getting your opponent to a zero card hand before their turn begins

Actually, Vault can do that too.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 08, 2012, 02:54:51 pm
1.
Mountebank
or, More likely,
Saboteur
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 08, 2012, 03:15:46 pm
Two hints:

For Puzzle I

The quality shared by all the cards in Puzzle I is very similar to the quality shared by all the cards in Puzzle II.

For Puzzle II

The quality shared by all the cards in Puzzle II is very similar to the quality shared by all the cards in Puzzle I.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: AJD on June 08, 2012, 05:04:11 pm
For II.b.i I'm going to guess that the answer is Loan, but I don't have a totally principled explanation for it.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 08, 2012, 05:22:27 pm
for II

What are card that can increase number of treasure in your deck when you play them, also downgrading doesn't count?
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 08, 2012, 06:10:28 pm
for II

What are card that can increase number of treasure in your deck when you play them, also downgrading doesn't count?

I should clarify.  The cards on list II are, to the best of my knowledge, the ONLY cards that share a specific quality across all possible Kingdoms.  Your criteria would expand the list to include Mint, Mine, Bag of Gold, Explorer, Bureaucrat, etc.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 10, 2012, 12:56:24 pm
Two big hints:

For Puzzle I

The missing card has already been named on this thread.

For Puzzle II

Black Market -- 8) -------
Governor - 8) -
Forge ---- 8) -
Jack of all Trades - 8) -
Trader - 8) -------
Treasure Map -- 8) --
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: GendoIkari on June 11, 2012, 02:29:14 pm
I: What are, "cards that can increase your opponents hand size during your turn?"

I mean, sure, but no.  We're looking for a quality that only applies to these three cards and one other.

To be fair, outside of Council Room what other card does this apply to?

More than zero.

I don't quite get your answer here. Is there another card that fits Galzria's criteria?
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: DG on June 11, 2012, 02:41:13 pm
Yes Margrave can also increase the hand size of an opponent with two cards in hand. I'm guessing that Margrave is the card previously mentioned that is the solution to the first part but I just can't see the specific criteria that our setter is looking for. It might be something like "can add a card to your opponent's hand that wasn't in the deck at start of turn", but what it is specifically I cannot say.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: eHalcyon on June 11, 2012, 02:58:57 pm
Yes Margrave can also increase the hand size of an opponent with two cards in hand. I'm guessing that Margrave is the card previously mentioned that is the solution to the first part but I just can't see the specific criteria that our setter is looking for. It might be something like "can add a card to your opponent's hand that wasn't in the deck at start of turn", but what it is specifically I cannot say.

Technically, Margrave increases opponent's hand size no matter how many cards they have in hand.  It's just that the increase is usually followed by a decrease.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: chester on June 11, 2012, 05:15:38 pm
Yes Margrave can also increase the hand size of an opponent with two cards in hand. I'm guessing that Margrave is the card previously mentioned that is the solution to the first part but I just can't see the specific criteria that our setter is looking for. It might be something like "can add a card to your opponent's hand that wasn't in the deck at start of turn", but what it is specifically I cannot say.

Technically, Margrave increases opponent's hand size no matter how many cards they have in hand.  It's just that the increase is usually followed by a decrease.


I think that's the answer -- Margrave; cards that can either increase or decrease opponents' hand size

Part 2:
If theme 2 is "increase or decrease your deck size", a lot of cards make some sense: Masquerade, Develop, Loan for part i; Transmute for part ii
but I don't see what Black Market has to do with anything.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 11, 2012, 05:40:59 pm
Yes Margrave can also increase the hand size of an opponent with two cards in hand. I'm guessing that Margrave is the card previously mentioned that is the solution to the first part but I just can't see the specific criteria that our setter is looking for. It might be something like "can add a card to your opponent's hand that wasn't in the deck at start of turn", but what it is specifically I cannot say.

Technically, Margrave increases opponent's hand size no matter how many cards they have in hand.  It's just that the increase is usually followed by a decrease.


I think that's the answer -- Margrave; cards that can either increase or decrease opponents' hand size

Correct! 
The answer to Puzzle I is Margrave.  All of the cards on the list can result in both a net increase and a net decrease of an opponent's hand size.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: heron on June 11, 2012, 06:09:53 pm
Then, is puzzle 2 Cards that can both increase and decrease the number of cards in your deck/hand when played?
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 11, 2012, 06:52:11 pm
II
B
i - Edited: Lookout. Loan
ii - actually 3 - KC, TR, Golem

Also, good, hard, but also not farfetch'd - ie great puzzle.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 11, 2012, 07:29:56 pm
Increase or decrease deck size?  why not ironworks?
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 11, 2012, 07:34:47 pm
Increase or decrease deck size?  why not ironworks?

Ironworks cannot decrease. You need both to qualify.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: ehunt on June 11, 2012, 07:38:24 pm
Am I correct that Black Market only works if there is a Mint in the Black Market deck?

I also don't understand the answer to the island puzzle, since kc and tr and golem can't by themselves make your deck any bigger.

Awesome puzzles!
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Morgrim7 on June 11, 2012, 07:39:19 pm
Increase or decrease deck size?  why not ironworks?
No, because then that list would contain Chapel, Remodel, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Upgrade, Feast, Trading Post, Embargo, Salvager, Explorer, Lookout, ect. ect. :)
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Morgrim7 on June 11, 2012, 07:40:36 pm
Am I correct that Black Market only works if there is a Mint in the Black Market deck?

I also don't understand the answer to the island puzzle, since kc and tr and golem can't by themselves make your deck any bigger.

Awesome puzzles!
I believe Farmland in the BM deck would work as well.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: eHalcyon on June 11, 2012, 07:40:59 pm
II
B
i - Edited: Lookout. Loan
ii - actually 3 - KC, TR, Golem

Also, good, hard, but also not farfetch'd - ie great puzzle.

Assuming the quality was correctly identified, how do KC, TR, Golem work with Island to make it fit?  I would instead say Ironworks and Transmute.

Edit: Wait, Ironworks still makes no sense there.  Um.

Edit: And regarding Black Market, I think it's quite a stretch.  It only increases your deck size if you buy something from the BM.  You might as well include Salvager then, which can trash (decrease) but also give +Buy (increase).
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Grujah on June 11, 2012, 07:46:43 pm
Morgrim - Farmland doesn't work, if you fail to remodel - net gain is 0 cards.

eHalcyon - I don't see how Ironworks works there, I get the Transmute (empty piles). Just rethought it, Golem/TR/KC don't work with island alone. You are right, I made a mistake.


Edit:
Well, with BM you resolve the buying during the "playing of the card", not after, like Salvager.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: Death to Sea Hags on June 11, 2012, 07:53:45 pm
Increase or decrease deck size?  why not ironworks?
No, because then that list would contain Chapel, Remodel, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Upgrade, Feast, Trading Post, Embargo, Salvager, Explorer, Lookout, ect. ect. :)

Point was that if KC-TR-Golem work, then so does Ironworks - Gain without Loss or Loss without Gain.  So they don't work for the Island puzzle...

eHalcyon: Wouldn't Transmute also work on with Great Hall, Nobles, etc?  It's not the Island itself that is reducing size, after all. 
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: DG on June 11, 2012, 08:04:07 pm
(ii) Transmute and develop. A 4 or 7 cost card (or highway or bridge) is needed in the kingdom for develop to be able to gain two cards. Transmutes can trash islands to gain two cards. Both can trash curses with no card gained.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: eHalcyon on June 11, 2012, 08:10:28 pm
eHalcyon: Wouldn't Transmute also work on with Great Hall, Nobles, etc?  It's not the Island itself that is reducing size, after all. 

Yeah it would work with those too.  I'm guessing that the OP didn't want to include them all because it would make it too obvious.

(ii) Transmute and develop. A 4 or 7 cost card (or highway or bridge) is needed in the kingdom for develop to be able to gain two cards. Transmutes can trash islands to gain two cards. Both can trash curses with no card gained.

Develop works with a lot of stuff too.  But I guess Island was chosen to make both things work.
Title: Re: Two puzzles
Post by: dghunter79 on June 11, 2012, 09:38:08 pm
II (a)
Then, is puzzle 2 Cards that can both increase and decrease the number of cards in your deck/hand when played?

You got it!  All the cards in Puzzle II (a) can, no matter what other cards are in the Kingdom, be played both for a net increase and also for a net decrease to the number of cards in your deck (and on your mats).

In the second hint for Puzzle II, the dashes represent the largest number of cards that each card can trash or gain in all possible Kingdoms.  The number of dashes to the left of Cool is the guaranteed number of cards that can be trashed, to the right is the guaranteed number that can be gained. 

For example, in any Kingdom that includes a card that increases hand-size, Forge can trash lots of cards.  But even without any cards like that, Forge can always trash at least the other four cards in the hand, so long as there are no cards in Dominion equal to their total cost -- which can be arranged in all Kingdoms.  Likewise, in Colony games, Trader can net-gain ten cards if it's used on a Colony.  However, not all Kingdoms contain Colonies.  But they do all have Provinces.  So, Forge can only guaranteed-trash four cards, while Trader can only guaranteed-gain seven. 


Black Market was an interesting case.  If the only way it could be played to trash cards was to purchase a Mint, then whenever Mint was in the Kingdom, it could not be played for a net trash.  So, it wouldn't count.   However, while you are playing Black Market, you can play a Loan to trash a treasure, and play a Horn of Plenty to gain a Victory Card, which you then use Watchtower to trash.  By the time Black Market has resolved, you have achieved a net loss of two cards.  And it doesn't matter if Loan or Horn or Watchtower are in the Kingdom.  If they aren't, then they may be in the Black Market deck; so you can, in all Kingdom's, have at least one.  That's why I indicated that Black Market can be played for a net loss of two in all Kingdoms.  (I may have missed something that screws up that count.  I know my count for the number of cards Black Market can guaranteed-gain is off by at least one because -- I forgot Ill-Gotten Gains.)

Part 2:
If theme 2 is "increase or decrease your deck size", a lot of cards make some sense: Masquerade, Develop, Loan for part i

Masquerade should definitely have been included on the list.  Whoops.  Whoops.  Actually, Masquerade can only be used to gain cards in very specific, Kingdom-dependent scenarios.

II (b) i

Loan, as hypothesized by AJD and confirmed by Grujah.


II (b) ii

(ii) Transmute and develop. A 4 or 7 cost card (or highway or bridge) is needed in the kingdom for develop to be able to gain two cards. Transmutes can trash islands to gain two cards. Both can trash curses with no card gained.

That's it!  A lot of cards could have been mentioned here, but I thought the way Island brought in both Develop and Transmute was niftiest.

Thanks for playing, all!