Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Game Reports => Topic started by: WanderingWinder on June 04, 2012, 04:40:10 pm
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Now we know there are soft counters and there are hard counters. And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me. One obvious case is watchtower vs. Torturer. If I want to keep my hand, I just trash that curse. If I want to be able to increase my card draw because I have a couple junk cards in my hand, I can actually use your attack to help me there.
Anyway, probably the best-known of these, which I've heard as 'the perfect counter' and 'too good a counter' is Horse Traders to minion. And it's really good. But, oftentimes, you need to do something a little more, because HT+money is not such a hot strategy. So actually fairly often you end up buying both minions and HT - they work decently well together, especially with some villages thrown in. Here (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120601-094929-ee1786de.html) is a game which was very satisfying to play, where I used scheme to up the ante on the HT goodness, getting six card hands and a nice HT benefit over... and over... and over again, and notching one of the more satisfying wins of my 'career'.
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Often Menagerie for Militia/Goons (NOT Ghost Ship)
Trader for cursing attacks
Maybe Peddler for Swindler (once peddlers run out and you need a way to get a lot of peddlers)
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When I read this I thought, "but wasn't there something wrong with using scheme in minion games?"
...Oh, right.
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I remember a game where several times I was sitting with Jack of all Trades in my hand, hoping my opponent would Ghost Ship me so I could topdeck a victory card, discard it, and get a replacement. I think it hit twice, which was enough.
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Moat can be pretty fun against minion, especially in a multi-player game. If you like your hand reveal a moat and keep it. If your hand is trash don't reveal the moat and draw 4 new cards. This is especially effective if there are cursing attacks in the game, since it is easy for you hand to be pure junk. In a multi-player game there can be multiple attacks every round so buying a moat makes a lot of sense.
Here's a 3p game where my 5 moats defend well against minion, goons and sea hag.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120516-145904-aa5acdbd.html
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Well HT in general is an over-hard counter to a lot of attacks. Once Curses run out, every play of Familiar, Witch, etc, helps you if you have one in hand. Secret Chamber, too, though less so.
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Secret Chamber vs. Mountebank.
Opp plays Mountebank, reveal Secret Chamber, put Secret chamber back on deck and put a curse or 2 in hand, then discard curse. Maybe not Overhard, but fun nonetheless.
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Secret Chamber vs. Mountebank.
Opp plays Mountebank, reveal Secret Chamber, put Secret chamber back on deck and put a curse or 2 in hand, then discard curse. Maybe not Overhard, but fun nonetheless.
That doesn't help you though. This topic is looking for counters such that getting attacked can end up actually benefiting you.
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Actually, the topic was to talk about the game in the OP. But people have been using it to list a bunch of over-hard counters. Now, secret chamber sorta can be over-hard, in that you can mess with your shuffle/deck distribution, but... eh, not really.
HT is nice for attacks that don't actually do anything at some point, as mentioned.
Watchtower is over-hard to torturer.
Actually, I think HT to minion, Watchtower torturer, multiple HTs to any discard attack, and trader to ambassador/cursers are the only truly over-hard things, in that they stop the attack totally and give a benefit. The others are... over-soft? In that they can somtimes help out more than the attack hurts, but they don't stop the attacks effectiveness.
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JoaT vs Ghost Ship, as mentioned above
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Tunnel can be a hard counter to many attacks.
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Well, obv. Trader vs Mountebank is especially brutal. It leads to the question "Is it worth it to buy a Mountebank that has a chance of giving my opponent 2 silvers?"
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JoaT vs Ghost Ship, as mentioned above
JoaT isn't going to be over-hard again, by the definition I say in post 8. Often it's better than not being attacked. But not always (my hand is JoaT, gold, gold, silver, silver, and I get GSed. I now can't filter what was the top card of my deck before - I WILL draw it, and maybe miss my colony for it).
Tunnel can be a hard counter to many attacks.
Clearly you don't have the same definition of hard counter that I do. By mine, tunnel is never hard.
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And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me.
If I've got a deck of copper, estates, and a tunnel then that's a hard counter to a thief.
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And then there are what I call over-hard counters to attacks, i.e. it's actually beneficial to me that you attacked me.
If I've got a deck of copper, estates, and a tunnel then that's a hard counter to a thief.
No, it's an 'over-soft' counter (that's what I call it in reply 8). It certainly doesn't stop the thief attack, ever, though it can give you a benefit from it greater than the negative side that attack.
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
No. No it's not. It doesn't stop the attack, so it can't be hard, and actually... you do realize that these aren't totally worthless cards, right? Like, on a board with nothing on it but these cards and money, you play BM-thief... actually buying some thieves.
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
No. No it's not. It doesn't stop the attack, so it can't be hard,
I bet you don't get them convinced of your notion of "hard".
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But that's what a hard counter is... apart form my more fanciful 'over-hard' and significantly more fanciful 'over-soft'....
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Overly-hard counters are difficult to find...
Library to ghost ship? There are some rare times when you're better off passing your library to the next hand or you have a dead action you'd like to skip over. Like another library. And it literally never hurts.
Debatably goons / attacks to possession.
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No terminal can be overhard because it costs you the action.
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I guess Tactician is Borderline to over-hard counter to Ghost Ship.
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I don't want to get into the semantics over "overhard", but there are many counters that are good enough that you get a net benefit from being attacked.
Fool's gold or treasure against ghost ship. Library to militia/goons. Combination of secret chamber + scrying pool against scrying pool (or spy). Sometimes menagerie against milita/goons.
I don't think they are that rare.
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Fool's gold or treasure against ghost ship.
Fool's gold against margrave, rather...
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Either can be good. The technique with Ghost Ships is to push Fool's Golds back until they usefully collide.
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Nothing vs Thief or Pirate ship is an over-hard counter. You usually benefit from the opponent playing them! ;D
No. No it's not. It doesn't stop the attack, so it can't be hard, and actually... you do realize that these aren't totally worthless cards, right? Like, on a board with nothing on it but these cards and money, you play BM-thief... actually buying some thieves.
It was really just meant as a joke. :-[