Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Puzzles and Challenges => Topic started by: jomini on June 02, 2012, 04:59:33 pm
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
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(http://yu-gyo.com/Promos/Exodia/ExodiaSet.gif)
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Wait, what if they play Possesion?
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Morgrim: Possession does not allow them to win.
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Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.
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Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.
Not 2 player. Don't think the pin works 3 player.
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Well, the cards in hand do not matter, the opponent could play the KC Masq pin.
3p +they both have 54 vp leads....
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Um, couldn't the players just end the game before Bob gets a turn? OR is it already Bob's turn?
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I think it's Bob's turn now.
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Bob was holding this card:
Winner
$1 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
When you play this, you win the gme.
This card, once drawn, may not be discarded, trashed, or passed.
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Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.
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Oh, and about the pin, they can block unless you use the outpost version. Even if you do, that's only 6 cards flying around per turn, which will empty the dude to your left, but the guy to your right still gets 4 cards. Not to mention that with duchies gone, they can run out curses and quite possibly coppers before their lead is totally wiped out, and that you have no way of getting points to end the game either, even after that pin is gone.
So, only other unblockable card that does junk to them, like masquerade, is possession. However, you can only possess the dude to your left, which means the guy to your right is going to be pretty impervious. Sure, you can make dude to your left possess dude to your right (maybe), but then he gets to decide what dude to your right does, not you. So... pretty sure Bob is an arrogant little dude who is a bit too sure of himself? (considering that it can't just be a get VP for me scheme, as there's not enough left on the board for that to work...)
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Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.
B-crat?
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Seems to me the intended solution MIGHT be 2 King's Court, 2 Saboteur, 5 highways, and several Market/Grand Market. i.e. you highway everything down, to where provinces cost 3, KC a KC a market kind of card (well you don't really need to KC these... just need 4 buys at the end) a sab a sab. So that's 6 Saboteur plays, which can knock out 6 provinces each*, which they can turn into estates (I guess), so that's 30 points down for each of them. And then you snap up 4 provinces with your one KC'ed Market, giving you a net swing of 54 points over each of them. Neat. Unfortunately, if they have provinces in their hands, it doesn't work, if you draw all your non-highways before playing all your highways, it doesn't work, and 12 provinces to knock out from them also just means it doesn't work. Which means... back to the drawing board? Except I think something similar will be right, only you need to gain a lot of the pieces partway through. So you need to have ironworks, KC, Highway, Saboteur in the kingdom. Your deck consists of... highway highway highway, KC, KC, Ironworks? And some drawing card like lab is going to help a good bit. Heck, maybe even... margrave would be nice. You'll have enough actions. And with margrave, you can knock them down to 3 cards in hand. So they get to protect less. And they could have some kind of defenses, which is going to stop a lot of stuff... well, 10 plays of masquerade can knock anything out of their hands, but you'd need nothing in your hand, and then you still need to be able to play everything, which... you just can't ensure. I'm very confused.
B-crat?
Thought of that, but firstly, you have to be able to get 5 plays down every turn AND have them have 5 green cards in hand, which I don't think you can force? But also, even so, how do you win after that. But the bigger problem is moat.
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I meant b-crat for saboteur, but yea, moat exists.
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So, the total points out is 21 for 21 estates, 36 for 12 duchies, 72 for 12 provinces, and -20 for 20 curses. Assuming Bob has 19 curses (-19) each of his opponents needs 35 points. One has 10 duchies and 5 estates, the other has 3 Provinces, 2 Duchies and 11 estates. Bob's hand is KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, and because it's his turn he knows he can simply buy 9 Provinces and an estate and eek out a 1 point win?
Of course, I hope this is wrong because that would be no fun :(
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I guess the way you can do it is to repeatedly set up this situation: I somehow have only a masquerade in hand and a KC and native village in draw deck and play a golem, KC first, playing the masquerade, trashing everything, then pick up cards you have hidden on the native village mat. After clearing out their hands, you then still have to do whatever massive attack thing. I guess this is possible, maybe, but it seems extremely difficult to be able to orchestrate. For one thing, where are your four golems coming from? I guess you could already have them. Mind is bending to try to work out whether this actually works, but I just realized I don't care *that* much. If it does, pretty nice puzzle though, except for Powerman's cook ;)
(I guess I should explain - in chess puzzles, solutions that work but which aren't the intended solution of the puzzle-writer (typically they're not nearly as pretty and often quite ugly indeed) are called cooks)[/quote]
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So, the total points out is 21 for 21 estates, 36 for 12 duchies, 72 for 12 provinces, and -20 for 20 curses. Assuming Bob has 19 curses (-19) each of his opponents needs 35 points. One has 10 duchies and 5 estates, the other has 3 Provinces, 2 Duchies and 11 estates. Bob's hand is KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge, and because it's his turn he knows he can simply buy 9 Provinces and an estate and eek out a 1 point win?
Of course, I hope this is wrong because that would be no fun :(
Can't be that, because if he has 19 curses, how can he be sure to not draw those off of 'a random hand'. So I guess not so much of a cook as I thought....
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WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.
So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt
... Right? Or am I misreading it?
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Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points
Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.
Edit: Fixed 2 typos
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WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.
So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt
... Right? Or am I misreading it?
If you're reading the puzzle right, it's a much more boring puzzle....
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WW, it doesn't say that when he shuffles his deck that he knows that he's won, it says that after he looks at his hand, he knows that he's won.
So while it says he dealt randomly to himself, the fact that he didn't know he would win until after he had looked at his hand suggests that it doesn't have to work no mater what he's dealt
... Right? Or am I misreading it?
Those were my thoughts as well.
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Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points
Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.
Edit: Fixed 2 typos
This is not immune to attacks.
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Points Before:
Bob has 18 curses and 3 estates --> -15 Points
Each of his opponents has 6 Duchies, 3 Provinces and 3 Estates --> 39 Points
Because opponents had played Councilrooms before his new 7-card-hand is:
KC-KC-KC-KC-Councilroom-Councilroom-Councilroom, enabling him to draw all of his remaing deck, including 18 curses, 3 ambassadors, 3 bridges and enough KC (too lazy to calclulate how many are needed, but it should work). He than KC-ambassadors all of his curses to his opponents (9 each), leaving them with 30 Points. Through KC-KC-Bridge-Bridge-Bridge he can buy the remaining 6 Provinces and 12 estates (he has plenty of +buys from councilrooms and bridges, winning by 48-30-30.
Edit: Fixed 2 typos
This is not immune to attacks.
At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
As Bob sees this hand at the start of his turn, we can assume there were no discard attacks before his turn. I don't know which attacks should happen to him after that, because after his turn the game is over. And even if his opponents manage to defend against his ambassadored curses, they will still have no more than 39 points.
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Tonks: your solution does not work because it can be stopped if the opponents have moats in hand
General clarifications:
1. Your solution must work for any hands the opponents could have. If they have moats in hand, Bob still must be assured a victory without attacks working.
2. Bob drew his hand face down and did nothing to change it until his turn. So it is a normal 5 card hand.
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his hand is KC KC Golem Golem Golem.
He gets 18 actions.
So make that 9 Bridges and 6 WharvesLabs, 2 Schemes and an Outpost.
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his hand is KC KC Golem Golem Golem.
He gets 18 actions.
So make that 9 Bridges and 6 Wharves, 2 Schemes and an Outpost.
Can't have Wharves or Schemes incase they draw the other actions before your Golems find them.
Edit: Although Scheme isn't a problem because it gives you an action to play any potentially drawn actions.
Not that any of this matters though, with 9 Bridges you can buy whatever the hell you want to.
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It appears that I did not consider the curses carefully enough when framing this puzzle. You may consider this a hard mode if you like:
Bob's deck and hand contain zero curses
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Hmmm.. Hard mode:
Correct me if I am wrong. Among 12 duchies, 12 provinces and 21 estates there 129 points to be gained. Even if he gained 10 IGGs and gave them each 10 curses, They would have 44 points each, and he could only have 21.
So I guess it has something like "KC Masq-ing your oponent KC Masq and Poss and then.. " don't want to go there. It hurts my head.
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.
That would be 9 turns. And with a lot of King's Courts, Ambassadors, and Masquerades it could help, sure.
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Maybe the hand is KC-KC-PossessionX3?
Hardly. Grabbing the guy to your left's deck for three turns can't help him THAT much. Especially because that dude could be holding 3 all-green hands.
That would be 9 turns. And with a lot of King's Courts, Ambassadors, and Masquerades it could help, sure.
Oh look, I can't count. But point is, you don't know that he has that. Heck, you don't know that his deck isn't something like 8 coppers and the rest green cards. It's supposed to be able to be ANYTHING.
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Just to clarify, Bob must be assured a win even if his opponents have no action cards in their hands or decks at the start of his present turn.
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.
Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.
Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.
Please, read the thread before posting. ::)
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Please, read the thread before posting. ::)
[/quote]
I thought I did. Must have been somewhere under this black lines...
Edit: OK, that was posted before. Don't get why it should be wrong. It was after he sees the hand he knows he had won. Or isn't it wrong and you are just having fun with more solutions?
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.
Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.
Please, read the thread before posting. ::)
Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?
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Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?
Nja, probably before posting they should have a look. Anyway, I was distracted by the Ambassador things afterwards and didn't look very carefully, as jomini's post seems like it's still open? Is it? I'm puzzled...
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I'm throwing this into spoilers because I'm not sure if folks would continue to have the current puzzle up or if I should change the initial post.
When I made the original puzzle I choose a poor way to clarify the situation without giving too much away. It was intended that this be more difficult than Bob just buys all the remaining VP for the win. My poor wording means that any solution where bob has 19 curses and can pull off a sufficiently strong mega-turn will result in a win for him. These are solutions to the puzzle, but frankly not that interesting.
A harder version of the puzzle, the one I had in mind to begin with, also includes the stipulation that Bob has no curses in his hand or deck at the start of his turn.
Let me know if you guys would like the OP changed, the spoiler tags removed, or things left as is. I've seen some fun things here that I hadn't considered so I'm fine with it either way.
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Bob has 30 Curses and nothing
Alice and Eve each have 6 Duchies and 1 Province giving them 6x3+6=6x4=24VPs for a total difference of 54VPs.
Bob draws KCKC3xBridge for 10 Provinces for free, giving him 60VPs and ending the game.
Please, read the thread before posting. ::)
Why? Isn't the point of spoiler tags so that people can post their own responses regardless of what other people have said?
Oh hey, you can just KC/Bridge Mega-Turn.
I mean, the point of the spoiler tags is that you can think about the puzzle and try to solve it regardless of what other people have said. Not post the same things a thousand times. If that were the case, why post at all?
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Not a solution, but perhaps it can help lead to one?
There are a few ways to be 54 points behind both other players. If Bob doesn't have any Curses at all, there aren't many ways to come back from that.
12 provinces = 72 points
12 duchies = 36 points
12 estates = 12 points
There is a total of 120 points. Each opponent could have their starting estates while Bob has trashed his, so that means at the very least they each have 51 of the available points from the supply. In that case, there are at most 18 points remaining in the supply for Bob to gain.
Along with this, there are 30 curses available to pass out. If he passes them all to a single opponent, their lead drops to 24. That means that even if Bob buys all the remaining VP, he will STILL be behind the cursed opponent, and that's without worrying about the other guy. It's an even worse proposition if he passes out curses evenly.
Therefore the solution must involve either destroying their VP or stealing them.
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Perhaps a solution could involve KC, Bridge and Saboteur, maybe facilitated by Golems in hand. But the problem is that this would be stopped cold by Moat and Lighthouse.
Another idea -- the two opponents don't need the same split of VP. One could have 9 provinces and the other a mix:
12 duchies = 36
2 provinces = 12
3+3 estates = 6
== 54
This would leave in the supply: 1 province, 9 estates, 30 curses.
Perhaps Bob can put his opponents into a Bureaucrat pin, eventually forcing the players to pass VP cards with Masquerade. You will gain much more than the other opponent since the player passing to you is passing Province while the other is passing Estates and Duchies. Maybe you can work some curses in there as well.
But again, this is blocked by Moat and Lighthouse.
I'm really not sure how to do this when attacks are blocked.
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Maybe if you specify enough kingdom cards for an elaborate pin, you don't need to worry about Moat/Lighthouse
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
[/quote
doh.
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?
Moat.
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?
Moat.
doh.
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Bob is playing Dominion and losing badly; each of his two opponents has a 54 VP lead on Bob. There are no VP chip cards nor any alternate VP cards (no colonies) in the kingdom; there is no black market in the kingdom. Only the duchy pile has been exhausted. All mats and play areas are empty. Bob shuffles his deck and draws a random hand, face down. At the start of his turn, Bob looks at his hand, smiles and says "Good game" assured he will win regardless of what luck happens next.
What is Bob's deck?
Notes:
The other players can have ANY cards (barring alternate VP/black market) in their hands/decks/discards; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
The other players can use their actions and buys in ANY legal fashion; it doesn't matter they will still lose.
I don't really understand how any of this precludes the simple KC-KC-Outpost-Masquerade from pinning them down, given sufficient coppers are still in play (or we're using an arbitrarily large copper stack)
Having three players does that.
Does KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masquerade work? Or does KC not stay out with Outpost?
Moat.
doh.
Actually, it doesn't work anyway, BECAUSE KC stays out with outpost. I play KC-KC-Militia-Outpost-Masq. Ok, So delete three cards left in hand of guy on my right. Guy on left gives his 3 cards to guy on right. Now I take my outpost turn. I have KC-Militia-outpost, and I can't pin you, because if I KC the militia, there's nothing left for me to play the masq with, and if I play KC the masq, I have to pass my militia.
HOWEVER, you could fix that if you're able to get a haven down just right. It needs to be that you draw the militia out of the haven on your normal turns, then play haven to set aside militia on your outpost turns, before KCing masq.
But that still fails to moat.
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But that still fails to moat.
How about Scrying Pool drawing your whole deck which includes plenty of King's Courts and Throne rooms/Villages. Then 10 Masquerade plays to strip out all opponents hands, 10 Witch plays, and a zillion Saboteurs.
The opponents can clean out the estates from the Saboteurs, but you can buy the last province to win.
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But that still fails to moat.
How about Scrying Pool drawing your whole deck which includes plenty of King's Courts and Throne rooms/Villages. Then 10 Masquerade plays to strip out all opponents hands, 10 Witch plays, and a zillion Saboteurs.
The opponents can clean out the estates from the Saboteurs, but you can buy the last province to win.
If you have any cards in your hand the masquerade plays will just cycle one card through their decks
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Right. Like I said on page one, the only way to strip so many cards from there hand is something like golem into KC and NV, with cards on NV mat and nothing in your deck, nothing in your hand except a Masq. And that's really hard to orchestrate.
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So is there an answer to "hard mode"?
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Yes.
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Since those better at these than I seem to have given up... hint?
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Hmm well:
One solution is listed below.
Hint:
Bob actually only cares about drawing one card into his hand from his deck: scrying pool.
Solution:
Bob’s deck consists of:
SP, Scheme, Festival x4, Cellar x3, NV x6, KC x2, masq x3, outpost
Bob plays SP and draws his entire deck. He plays it as follows:
Scheme (to top deck SP at the end of this turn) ->
Festival x4 (to buy the last province on the last turn, also gives more actions) ->
Outpost ->
Cellar (discard KC, golem, cellar, masq, masq) ->
NV x5 (place KC, golem, cellar, masq, masq onto mat) ->
Cellar (discard KC & NV) ->
Golem (hits KC & NV) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
NV (draw from mat) ->
Cellar (discard KC & masq)
Golem (hits KC & masq) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
masq (burn a card).
Net result – 1st player downstream has no cards. 2nd player has 3 cards
Clean up – return SP to deck top
Outpost turn is played as the regular turn. Net result is the burning of 14 cards (with the use of some discard -> KC -> NV/Golem ->KC(masq) -> NV iteration, Bob’s deck could easily be built out to a masq pin against 4 opponents by burning 10 cards per turn and another 10 per outpost turn).
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Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble following. Since you've drawn your whole deck, doesn't Cellar just cause you to redraw what you discarded? I think I'm misreading something!
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Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble following. Since you've drawn your whole deck, doesn't Cellar just cause you to redraw what you discarded? I think I'm misreading something!
Yup. I guess you can still do it with Horse Traders or young witch, but you're going to need more actions maybe?
Also nice to see that I was on the right track, though I'm not sure this is really all that foolproof.... I mean, if the curse and copper piles are sufficiently low and/or they have large enough decks... you will run out of time...
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You can do it with Warehouse instead of Cellar, as it draws nothing.
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You can do it with Warehouse instead of Cellar, as it draws nothing.
But it discards 3, and it's imperative that you discard 2 rather than 3 for this to work
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You can do it with Warehouse instead of Cellar, as it draws nothing.
Warehouse only lets you discard three, at one point he needs to discard five. Probably Vault would be a good replacement.
Also, when you KC - masqerade the second time, don't you have another masquerade in hand? So you would have to pass that, and this would decrease the number of cards you burn and make it an incomplete pin.
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And what if your opponents are playing Double Tactician decks?
edit: Never mind, you specified play areas are empty.
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Sorry, I'm having a bit of trouble following. Since you've drawn your whole deck, doesn't Cellar just cause you to redraw what you discarded? I think I'm misreading something!
Yup. I guess you can still do it with Horse Traders or young witch, but you're going to need more actions maybe?
From the Festivals?
Also, when you KC - masqerade the second time, don't you have another masquerade in hand? So you would have to pass that, and this would decrease the number of cards you burn and make it an incomplete pin.
No, the second Masquerade is not in hand -- it's in limbo, cued up by the Golem, ready to be played after the Masquerade wreaks its havoc. Just as the Native Village is in limbo during the first Masquerading. Pretty neat!
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Thanks for spotting the error.
Revised Solution:
Bob’s deck consists of:
SP, Scheme, Festival x4, Secret Chamber x3, NV x6, KC x2, masq x3, outpost
Bob plays SP and draws his entire deck. He plays it as follows:
Scheme (to top deck SP at the end of this turn) ->
Festival x4 (to buy the last province on the last turn & allow play of terminals) ->
Outpost ->
SC (discard KC, golem, SC, masq, masq) ->
NV x5 (place KC, golem, SC, masq, masq onto mat) ->
SC (discard KC & NV) ->
Golem (hits KC & NV) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
NV (draw from mat) ->
SC (discard KC & masq)
Golem (hits KC & masq) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
masq (burn a card).
Clean up – return SP to deck top
Repeat turn during outpost turn.
There are a large number of cards that can be used to either discard or to top deck. There are enough ways to make actions float around, that Bob could get rid of the festivals by playing a NV or using an extra KC on the scheme to balance actions. Likewise instead of Secret Chamber Bob could use anything that discards or top decks without drawing like: vault, horse traders, young witch, hamlet, mandarin, etc.. You can always add cantrips to balance out the number of cards to discard/top deck & then place on the NV mat.
WW:Yeah, in theory, you could give the other two opponent's decks sufficiently large that they could pile out the coppers & curses before the game ends. You are completely right. I didn't want to specify that precisely in the opening post because I didn't want to make it too obvious that this was a masq-pin puzzle. I was hoping to see some creative thinking, which I did.
Open question: So I've seen several was to increase the number of dead masqs you can play in a turn. KC and TR can allow for 3 and 2 dead masq plays a go, golem can do 2 by itself and up to 4 with a KC/masq/masq setup like here, discard -> NV -> discard -> golem can allow for nested play and outpost can double everything you can come up with provided you have a sufficiently reliable deck (e.g. SP/scheme, KC/Wharf, double haven/double draw, etc.) ... is there any other way to play multiple dead masqs a turn?
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I KNEW there was a hole!
Horse traders reacts off of scrying pool. Bam!
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Ahh, thanks for catching that.
Revised, revised solution:
Bob’s hand consists of KC/KC/Smithy/Smithy/Scheme
Bob plays them in order and draws up to 27 cards, his entire deck:
Scheme, Festival x4, Secret Chamber x3, NV x6, KC x3, masq x3, outpost
KC -> Scheme (with this and the other scheme, Bob can top deck 6 cards: KC/KC/Smithy/Smithy/Scheme/Scheme) ->
Festival x4 (to buy the last province on the last turn & allow play of terminals) ->
Outpost ->
SC (discard KC, golem, SC, masq, masq) ->
NV x5 (place KC, golem, SC, masq, masq onto mat) ->
SC (discard KC & NV) ->
Golem (hits KC & NV) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
NV (draw from mat) ->
SC (discard KC & masq)
Golem (hits KC & masq) ->
KC -> masq (burn 3 cards) ->
masq (burn a card).
Clean up – return KC/KC/smithy/smithy/scheme/scheme to top deck
Repeat turn during outpost turn.
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No, Bob can only top deck 4 cards— the second scheme isn't KC'd.
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Heron:
No. The second scheme is played after the entire draw deck is hand. There are 3 KC's in the draw deck; two are used to triple play masq; one is used to triple play the scheme.
During the outpost turn, KC/KC/Smithy (draw cards) Smithy/Scheme will draw the entire deck again allowing for the triple play of scheme to set up the starting hand again.
In any event, KC/KC/Smithy/Smithy will still draw everything and then allow you to play KC (from the second KC in hand) -> scheme -> scheme.
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Oh, duh.
Thanks.