Dominion Strategy Forum

Archive => Archive => GokoDom => Topic started by: Kirian on May 25, 2012, 02:20:32 pm

Title: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Kirian on May 25, 2012, 02:20:32 pm
<b>Welcome to IsoDom 5: <i>The IsoDomening</i></b>

IsoDom 5 will be a Swiss-style tournament with a single-elimination finale.  For those who don't know the basic idea of a Swiss tournament, essentially in each round you will play someone with the same number of prior wins and losses, though you should ideally never play the same opponent twice.  This creates an ordering of contestants from most wins to fewest wins.

Tournament Structure:
Play Rules:

I think that's all that is needed.  If you feel you need rules clarifications, let me know.  If you'd like to play, please sign up below!  Make sure you indicate your isotropic username if it's different from your forum name; however, forum names will be entered in the brackets for ease of communication.

NEW INFO

Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: yuma on May 25, 2012, 02:21:30 pm
I would love to play
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Dsell on May 25, 2012, 02:22:59 pm
I'm in!  ;D
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Robz888 on May 25, 2012, 02:26:31 pm
I am in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: greatexpectations on May 25, 2012, 02:27:47 pm
in
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Young Nick on May 25, 2012, 02:34:54 pm
me, too
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: turkman on May 25, 2012, 02:35:36 pm
Count me in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: qmech on May 25, 2012, 02:55:04 pm
I'd like to take part.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: jsh357 on May 25, 2012, 03:09:40 pm
I'll give it a shot
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: paddyodoors on May 25, 2012, 03:23:17 pm
Put me down.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: tlloyd on May 25, 2012, 03:40:36 pm
Me too!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: michaeljb on May 25, 2012, 03:51:05 pm
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: blueblimp on May 25, 2012, 04:07:53 pm
I'm interested.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: dghunter79 on May 25, 2012, 04:59:04 pm
I'd love to play.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: loes u on May 25, 2012, 05:09:49 pm
I would like to play!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: ArjanB on May 25, 2012, 05:11:40 pm
I am in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: shark_bait on May 25, 2012, 05:37:25 pm
I can't pass this up.  Count me in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Grujah on May 25, 2012, 05:46:12 pm
Me wanna!

Iso name: SpajderDzerusalem.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: ednever on May 25, 2012, 06:06:07 pm
I'm in, depending on start-date. First game I could play is week of June 9th.

Ed
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Kirian on May 25, 2012, 06:13:16 pm
I'm in, depending on start-date. First game I could play is week of June 9th.

Ed

Yeah, I suppose I should have posted a start date.  I don't intend to start until IsoDom 4 is finished, which puts week 1 likely such that it'll include or be after the weekend of 09 June.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: CoheedandCambria on May 25, 2012, 06:20:37 pm
I'd love to play this, thanks for running it Kirian!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Watno on May 25, 2012, 06:22:48 pm
i wanna try this.
isotropic name is same as here
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: -Stef- on May 25, 2012, 07:04:44 pm
count me in... I'd love to play a tournament.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Rabid on May 25, 2012, 07:44:00 pm
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Jorbles on May 25, 2012, 07:47:55 pm
I'm in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: zxcvbn2 on May 25, 2012, 08:38:39 pm
I'm all for doing this again. Also, if anyone wants to join my one day tournament I just set up, it will be in a similar format, so it will give you a chance to see how it works. /shamelessplug
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Fabian on May 25, 2012, 08:55:02 pm
In.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: angrybirds on May 25, 2012, 10:39:18 pm
I was in the last IsoDom and really enjoyed it. I would like to be involved again if possible.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: rspeer on May 26, 2012, 12:17:58 am
In.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Rhombus on May 26, 2012, 01:24:58 am
I'm in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Insomniac on May 26, 2012, 02:23:37 am
Would love to play
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Obi Wan Bonogi on May 26, 2012, 03:00:59 am
Im in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: feelingzwontfade on May 26, 2012, 03:19:45 am
I would like to play
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: 7MiKL7 on May 26, 2012, 03:41:54 am
I'm in !
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Green Opal on May 26, 2012, 04:24:37 am
I'd like to play!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Marin on May 26, 2012, 05:16:00 am
I dream of a dominion tournament since so long time!!!
I want be in it!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Eevee on May 26, 2012, 05:37:06 am
Yeah in. MrEevee on iso.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: ugasoft on May 26, 2012, 06:02:20 am
I'm in. ugasoft.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: clb on May 26, 2012, 11:34:27 am
It looks like you might get enough interest to split the pools. If you do, I would like to be in; otherwise, I won't take up a spot a better player would enjoy.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: DG on May 26, 2012, 02:13:51 pm
Signing up.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: RisingJaguar on May 26, 2012, 02:58:47 pm
I'll probably be too busy but if you need someone for round numbers I can be that person.  However put me on the reserves list for the time being or something and let others get in first. 

Also very nice to see Marin, Stef, and Obi Wan Bonogi all participating.  Those will be some fun logs to read. 
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Smithe on May 26, 2012, 09:22:25 pm
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Morgrim7 on May 26, 2012, 10:46:54 pm
In, depending on dates and times.
Edit: Can't.  :(
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: WanderingWinder on May 26, 2012, 10:49:23 pm
I hate to be a spoilsport, but this will NOT be finished before isotropic replacement goes up.
Yes I'm sure you all think I'm crazy for saying this.

I'll bet you... upvotes?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Kirian on May 26, 2012, 10:55:23 pm
I hate to be a spoilsport, but this will NOT be finished before isotropic replacement goes up.
Yes I'm sure you all think I'm crazy for saying this.

I'll bet you... upvotes?

An excellent point... and I wouldn't bet against it.  In fact, I wasn't planning to participate in the tourney, as I actually assumed that would happen.

I'm still willing to run the tourney.  If people expect to drop out when the new site appears, so be it... but it'd be good to let us know in advance.  I guess I hadn't thought to just put that out in the first post.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: yuma on May 26, 2012, 11:28:46 pm
I hate to be a spoilsport, but this will NOT be finished before isotropic replacement goes up.
Yes I'm sure you all think I'm crazy for saying this.

I'll bet you... upvotes?

That is good for everyone to know, but for me personally it doesn't matter. It isn't like there is an entry fee or a deposit that I will lose if the tourny ends prematurely. I don't want to live my life letting theoretical possibilities get in the way of having fun. But, I can see that people who take a tourny more seriously than me might not want to start something without the guarantee of being able to finish it.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Mic Qsenoch on May 27, 2012, 12:12:14 am
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: ycz6 on May 27, 2012, 12:57:01 am
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Insomniac on May 27, 2012, 12:59:44 am
I intend to have the official app as I won't be able to go without it so, I would continue on the replacement if thats an option? although I assume not everyone will want it right away.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Kenuru on May 27, 2012, 03:19:48 am
I'd like to sign up.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Qvist on May 27, 2012, 11:01:22 am
I sign up! I definitely need to play more Dominion again.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: O on May 27, 2012, 10:12:48 pm
I'm in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: heron on May 27, 2012, 11:09:23 pm
I'd like to give this a shot, if I'm not too late.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: michaeljb on May 27, 2012, 11:27:50 pm
I intend to have the official app as I won't be able to go without it so, I would continue on the replacement if thats an option? although I assume not everyone will want it right away.
Same here, probably.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: antony on May 28, 2012, 04:20:05 am
I'm in if still possible.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: jvb on May 29, 2012, 04:27:32 am
I would love to play.

bazyn on isotropic
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: popsofctown on May 29, 2012, 01:46:48 pm
I'm in.  I believe I participated satisfactorily in Isodom 2.

I am "pops" on iso.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Jfrisch on May 29, 2012, 02:43:37 pm
I think I'd like to join.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: HiveMindEmulator on May 29, 2012, 03:27:18 pm
I'd like to join if there's still space.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: popsofctown on May 31, 2012, 09:33:21 pm
The finalists can play by skype or official app if necessary mayhaps
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: O on May 31, 2012, 10:00:42 pm
The finalists can play by skype or official app if necessary mayhaps

That assumes everyone owns all the cards, or the app.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: lespeutere on June 01, 2012, 05:04:13 am
I'm in, too.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Teproc on June 01, 2012, 10:22:04 am
I'm in, if there's still room.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: jmieden on June 01, 2012, 11:02:23 am
I would like to play, if there's room.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: b33 on June 01, 2012, 11:33:10 am
I'm in
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: popsofctown on June 01, 2012, 01:16:33 pm
The finalists can play by skype or official app if necessary mayhaps

That assumes everyone owns all the cards, or the app.
Base Dominion finals?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: Farb on June 01, 2012, 01:18:14 pm
I'd like to join in
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread
Post by: michaeljb on June 02, 2012, 01:10:37 pm
Base Dominion finals?

Oh please no :'( [/melodrama]
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: yudantaiteki on June 02, 2012, 09:21:56 pm
I'd like to try if there's still room -- I'm in Japan so my time zone is very different from others but I guess there are a lot of people from UK and Europe too so maybe that's not such a problem.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: methods of rationality on June 02, 2012, 09:43:47 pm
I'm in
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: andwilk on June 03, 2012, 10:30:24 am
Count me in!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Mergus on June 05, 2012, 03:19:35 am
I'm in too!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: PerdHapley on June 05, 2012, 07:03:15 am
Count me in if there's still room!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Wizard of Woz on June 05, 2012, 09:35:09 am
I would love to be in, if there is still room.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: cayvie on June 05, 2012, 01:29:05 pm
memememe
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: ddubois on June 07, 2012, 09:54:34 pm
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: kulap on June 07, 2012, 10:03:13 pm
in
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: glengarry on June 07, 2012, 10:10:32 pm
count me in!  i'm on iso every day, why not?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Stringer Bell on June 07, 2012, 10:47:17 pm
I'd love to play, but I'm not all that good. Is this a tournament for more experienced players who are higher on the leaderboard or is it open for anyone? Here is my Council Room profile link: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Stringer+Bell
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: jsh357 on June 07, 2012, 10:54:24 pm
I'd love to play, but I'm not all that good. Is this a tournament for more experienced players who are higher on the leaderboard or is it open for anyone? Here is my Council Room profile link: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Stringer+Bell

People of all skill ranks play, but naturally, the people on top of the leaderboard tend to perform better.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Stringer Bell on June 07, 2012, 10:59:12 pm
I'd love to play, but I'm not all that good. Is this a tournament for more experienced players who are higher on the leaderboard or is it open for anyone? Here is my Council Room profile link: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Stringer+Bell

People of all skill ranks play, but naturally, the people on top of the leaderboard tend to perform better.

Thanks. I'll \in and just do the best I can.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Caractacus2 on June 07, 2012, 11:25:38 pm
Can I please play?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 07, 2012, 11:26:41 pm
Can I please play?

Yes.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: zxcvbn2 on June 07, 2012, 11:40:40 pm
Can I please play?

Yes.
Though, by my count, Caractacus is the 65th person so perhaps he/she can't... :(
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 07, 2012, 11:55:07 pm
Can I please play?

Yes.
Though, by my count, Caractacus is the 65th person so perhaps he/she can't... :(

Swiss has no need for a specific number of people per bracket, the 32 person for first bracket was just arbitrarily chosen by Kirian.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: bedlam on June 08, 2012, 12:00:34 am
Please sign me up.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: zxcvbn2 on June 08, 2012, 12:31:07 am
Can I please play?

Yes.
Though, by my count, Caractacus is the 65th person so perhaps he/she can't... :(

Swiss has no need for a specific number of people per bracket, the 32 person for first bracket was just arbitrarily chosen by Kirian.

This isn't true, is it? If we're only playing five rounds of swiss, the maximum # of players you can have and trust the results is 32, and challonge won't support a swiss unless you make the # of rounds == # of rounds necessary in single elimination (not that you would need to use challonge, I'm just noting it).

Also, he did specifically say this: " positions will be filled on a first-come, first-served basis," implying that there are a limited # of positions in the tournament. I assumed that # would be 64 players. I'm all for lots of players and all, but in the lower bracket it leads to a good deal of uncertainty that the players who played best get into the top 8. I won't complain too much if Kirian lets everyone in, of course. I actually like letting as many in as possible, I would just rather either add a round of swiss or split into three if that's what we are going to do.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 12:35:29 am
Can I please play?

Yes.
Though, by my count, Caractacus is the 65th person so perhaps he/she can't... :(

Swiss has no need for a specific number of people per bracket, the 32 person for first bracket was just arbitrarily chosen by Kirian.

This isn't true, is it? If we're only playing five rounds of swiss, the maximum # of players you can have and trust the results is 32, and challonge won't support a swiss unless you make the # of rounds == # of rounds necessary in single elimination (not that you would need to use challonge, I'm just noting it).

Also, he did specifically say this: " positions will be filled on a first-come, first-served basis," implying that there are a limited # of positions in the tournament. I assumed that # would be 64 players. I'm all for lots of players and all, but in the lower bracket it leads to a good deal of uncertainty that the players who played best get into the top 8. I won't complain too much if Kirian lets everyone in, of course. I actually like letting as many in as possible, I would just rather either add a round of swiss or split into three if that's what we are going to do.

Erm, i've been in chess tournaments with several hundred people and 5-6 rounds under the swiss system ;)

Tiebreaker points and/or playoff rounds are your friends, especially if we're going into a finals with like 8 people or something.

If for some insane reason Kirian doesn't want to take over 32 people in each bracket, I will gladly give up my spot for someone else. This type of exclusionary crap really bugs me when it isn't required by the limits of the tournament system.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: zxcvbn2 on June 08, 2012, 12:42:45 am
Can I please play?

Yes.
Though, by my count, Caractacus is the 65th person so perhaps he/she can't... :(

Swiss has no need for a specific number of people per bracket, the 32 person for first bracket was just arbitrarily chosen by Kirian.

This isn't true, is it? If we're only playing five rounds of swiss, the maximum # of players you can have and trust the results is 32, and challonge won't support a swiss unless you make the # of rounds == # of rounds necessary in single elimination (not that you would need to use challonge, I'm just noting it).

Also, he did specifically say this: " positions will be filled on a first-come, first-served basis," implying that there are a limited # of positions in the tournament. I assumed that # would be 64 players. I'm all for lots of players and all, but in the lower bracket it leads to a good deal of uncertainty that the players who played best get into the top 8. I won't complain too much if Kirian lets everyone in, of course. I actually like letting as many in as possible, I would just rather either add a round of swiss or split into three if that's what we are going to do.

Erm, i've been in chess tournaments with several hundred people and 5-6 rounds under the swiss system ;)

Tiebreaker points and/or playoff rounds are your friends, especially if we're going into a finals with like 8 people or something.

If for some insane reason Kirian doesn't want to take over 32 people in each bracket, I will gladly give up my spot for someone else. This type of exclusionary crap really bugs me when it isn't required by the limits of the tournament system.

Fair enough. Yeah, the last IsoDom was one of the biggest reasons I started following this forum so closely. I definitely am for including more people, I think it's a lot more fun to play with the same person several times in a row, and it brings more people into the forum. I'm sorry if I came off as dickish, I was just explaining myself. An eight-person playoff should offset any uncertainty about who's at the top.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Kirian on June 08, 2012, 01:24:46 am
I was actually planning to split into three brackets if we got enough players.  However, I would prefer to have no fewer than 24 players in any of the brackets.  But I have to agree with O here--these cutoffs (24 and 32) are arbitrary.  So we'll skip 'em.

Challonge may not support having fewer than log2(N) rounds but, thankfully, you don't have to use every round on Challonge.

Those of you who have had experience with Swiss tournaments:  would you rather play in a bracket of 22 or a bracket of 34 with a lower-than-"proper" number of rounds?  As O says, with a Swiss system it's not really a big deal to have a weird number.  I lean toward having a larger pool.

I'd love to play, but I'm not all that good. Is this a tournament for more experienced players who are higher on the leaderboard or is it open for anyone? Here is my Council Room profile link: http://councilroom.com/player?player=Stringer+Bell

People of all skill ranks play, but naturally, the people on top of the leaderboard tend to perform better.

Thanks. I'll \in and just do the best I can.

The separate brackets will be divided by skill level (common in chess tournaments), so you'll face lower-level players anyway.  Granted, there's a bit more prestige to winning the top bracket than the lower ones.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 01:29:14 am
Clearly I support a larger pool

and Zxcvbn2q4lr23k4.... 8, you weren't being dickish, I just have a strong opinion about the issue.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 01:33:45 am
The cutoffs are far from arbitrary if we're doing a set number of swiss runs and want the results to be meaningful. In magic tournaments (which cuts to quarterfinals single elimination play after x rounds of swiss, just like this tournament), you play 5 rounds up to 32 players, 6 rounds up to 64 players, etc. This typically ensures that a record of X-1-1 (so 4 wins 1 loss 1 draw in a 6 round tournament) will be enough for t8. Saying "whatevs it's just arbitrary, let's do 5 rounds with 49 players!" means the system collapses. If we're doing 49 players, we do 6 rounds of swiss imo.

A swiss tournament with "several hundred players" and 5-6 rounds of swiss maybe works in a chess tournament where there's no cut to top8, but in a structure like this it would be straight up ridiculous. Plus, saying "playoff rounds" is good in such situations if necessary is also silly; those are called "more swiss rounds".

Now, I'm all for a big tournament, but add the necessary number of rounds. Otherwise, split it up to fewer than 33 players per bracket.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 01:37:15 am
The cutoffs are far from arbitrary if we're doing a set number of swiss runs and want the results to be meaningful. In magic tournaments (which cuts to quarterfinals single elimination play after x rounds of swiss, just like this tournament), you play 5 rounds up to 32 players, 6 rounds up to 64 players, etc. This typically ensures that a record of X-1-1 (so 4 wins 1 loss 1 draw in a 6 round tournament) will be enough for t8. Saying "whatevs it's just arbitrary, let's do 5 rounds with 49 players!" means the system collapses. If we're doing 49 players, we do 6 rounds of swiss imo.

A swiss tournament with "several hundred players" and 5-6 rounds of swiss maybe works in a chess tournament where there's no cut to top8, but in a structure like this it would be straight up ridiculous. Plus, saying "playoff rounds" is good in such situations if necessary is also silly; those are called "more swiss rounds".

Now, I'm all for a big tournament, but add the necessary number of rounds. Otherwise, split it up to fewer than 33 players per bracket.

no... "more swiss rounds" still require the entire bracket to continue playing, and can have significant changes in the leaderboard. "Playoff rounds" require 8 people or whatever to remain active

Also your system doesn't really ensure anything, since it assumes a closer to normal distribution of game results then dominion yields. A clear top ~8 will emerge pretty quickly (5-6 rounds) out of even large playgroups because of the (comparatively) low variance of dominion matches.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 01:49:15 am
It doesn't ensure anything, and I didn't say it did. I did say it typically ensures something, in magic tournaments.

That said, the possible results in a Magic tournament and a Dominion tournament are the same; win/draw/loss. There are fewer draws in Dominion, but other than that I don't understand your point. Low variance? Take 32 players and play one round; you will have 16 winners no matter what the variance. Take 32 players and play two rounds; you will have 8 winners no matter what the variance. etc etc. The variance in individual games/matches is meaningless, you're ending up with a normal distribution no matter what in swiss (draws complicate this, but like I said, they're more rare in Dominion anyway).

It's very easy to predict what the distribution will look like in swiss tournaments, especially when discounting draws and discounting dropouts. With 32 players and 5 rounds, you'll have exactly one 5-0, exactly five 4-1, exactly ten 3-2, etc. In real life it's not quite so easy because of dropouts/draws, but "variance" isn't an issue at all. And like I said, there's fewer draws in Dominion than (for example) real life Magic anyway, so the distribution is closer to normal than what I would be used to from my swiss tournament playing.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 01:50:38 am
Variance in individual games/matches is not meaningless.. With low variance, 5-0 match scores and the like are much more likely to occur.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: zxcvbn2 on June 08, 2012, 01:58:27 am
It doesn't ensure anything, and I didn't say it did. I did say it typically ensures something, in magic tournaments.

That said, the possible results in a Magic tournament and a Dominion tournament are the same; win/draw/loss. There are fewer draws in Dominion, but other than that I don't understand your point. Low variance? Take 32 players and play one round; you will have 16 winners no matter what the variance. Take 32 players and play two rounds; you will have 8 winners no matter what the variance. etc etc. The variance in individual games/matches is meaningless, you're ending up with a normal distribution no matter what in swiss (draws complicate this, but like I said, they're more rare in Dominion anyway).

It's very easy to predict what the distribution will look like in swiss tournaments, especially when discounting draws and discounting dropouts. With 32 players and 5 rounds, you'll have exactly one 5-0, exactly five 4-1, exactly ten 3-2, etc. In real life it's not quite so easy because of dropouts/draws, but "variance" isn't an issue at all. And like I said, there's fewer draws in Dominion than (for example) real life Magic anyway, so the distribution is closer to normal than what I would be used to from my swiss tournament playing.

Will draws be possible in this tournament, by the way? That is to say, if we play five games and end up 2-2-1, should we be playing a sixth game?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 01:58:42 am
I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't think you understand the swiss system. Each round, players face other players with the same number of match points (=wins). In a 32 player tournament with 5 swiss rounds, it's impossible for two players to end up with a 5-0 record, as they will face each other in round 5 with a 4-0 record (if they haven't been randomly paired in an earlier round of course), and only one of them can win. This is true even if these two players' winrates are 100.0% against all the other 30 players in the tournament (ie, they're Stef and Obi Wan on steroids). Only one of them is finishing with a 5-0 record anyway, every single time.

zxc, that's up to Kirian I guess. If we did play a sixth game, it would be even easier to predict what the final standings would look like of course, since we'd only have dropouts to worry about "ruining" a perfect normal distribution*.

* Well, and the inherent randomness from an uneven amount of players if we're not doing exactly 32.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 02:01:16 am
I understand the swiss, I was referring to A) The odds that *one* player finishes 5-0 in a 32 player, 5 round system and B) The odds of finishing 5-0 in the vast majority of swiss system tournaments that don't follow rounds = log2(players)
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 02:05:15 am
Addendum: Lol, forgot. Even in 32-player 5 round chess there's still Black-White switches which can transcend point count and the like.

Yes, someone has to go 5-0 in basic 32 player 5 rounds with no ties
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: CoheedandCambria on June 08, 2012, 02:07:17 am
Can you please take me off the list? I'm going to be taking a long break from dominion.

Sorry for the inconvenience
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 02:08:54 am
You'll have to be more clear I guess because I don't understand what you're saying. The odds that exactly one player finishes 5-0 in a 32 players 5 round tournament is 100.0% (again discounting draws and dropouts) and the variance of individual games/matches is irrelevant. It holds true for a tournament with all 50/50 matchups and it holds true for Stef vs 31 idiots. One player at 5-0 when the tournament is over.

I don't understand B. Are you saying that because the variance is low in Dominion (ie the best players have very good winrates against the worse players), even in a large tournament we can expect the best 8 players to often end up 5-0 because they won't face each other and they will be beating up the lower level players? If so I would say that's extremely inaccurate in the context of an IsoDom tournament, but I guess it's more subjective/up to interpretation than what I'm arguing in above posts, at least until we dig out some data, plus I don't see how it's relevant in any way, anyway. Something like "It's ok to do a crappy tournament system because the best players are winning no matter what"? Not a fan of that type of reasoning.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 02:12:55 am
Essentially yes. Having 40 players instead of 32 in a rock-paper-scissors contest is going to produce less 5-0s then having 40 instead of 32 in a dominion tournament.

I also think 4-1 will probably an easy cutoff point for a top 8 even with more than 32, with yes, a nasty tiebreaker situation or playoff denying someone from the top 8.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 02:22:31 am
"Essentially yes. Having 40 players instead of 32 in a rock-paper-scissors contest is going to produce less 5-0s then having 40 instead of 32 in a dominion tournament."

Care to put some numbers on that? I mean, I think you're right, but I think it's something like 1.26 on average instead of 1.25, and only because in the final round a 4-0 player paired down against a 3-1 player is more likely to have a 55% winrate than a 50% winrate like he would in r/p/s. The difference is really really negligible.

As for what will and won't make top 8 in 5 rounds of swiss, that's easy enough to calculate (on average, since anything other than 32 results in non-clean results). With 40 players and 5 rounds, 7.75 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. With 48 players, 9 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. etcetc
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: O on June 08, 2012, 02:27:22 am
"Essentially yes. Having 40 players instead of 32 in a rock-paper-scissors contest is going to produce less 5-0s then having 40 instead of 32 in a dominion tournament."

Care to put some numbers on that? I mean, I think you're right, but I think it's something like 1.26 on average instead of 1.25, and only because in the final round a 4-0 player paired down against a 3-1 player is more likely to have a 55% winrate than a 50% winrate like he would in r/p/s. The difference is really really negligible.

As for what will and won't make top 8 in 5 rounds of swiss, that's easy enough to calculate (on average, since anything other than 32 results in non-clean results). With 40 players and 5 rounds, 7.75 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. With 48 players, 9 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. etcetc

Is this match winrate or game winrate? Take some random player, lets call him Fabian, as the top player in our tournament. His game winrate might only be 60% but that should give him a much higher match winrate that I'm too tired to calculate.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 02:31:26 am
I was talking overall match winrate, but it's pretty irrelevant since I just made the number up. Let's call it 53% game winrate instead if you prefer (which results in a match winrate of 55.61%), it's just to illustrate a point.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: nightdance on June 08, 2012, 04:14:44 am
I'm in! My first and (probably last since official app is coming out) IsoDom!
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: bozzball on June 08, 2012, 05:22:42 am
I'm in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 05:34:57 am
Also before any stat guys come in and scold me for calling it a "normal distribution", I know it's binomial (if you simplify to ignore draws, anyway) and only approximately normal bla bla etc. I hope my points gets across either way, just when I reread the posts it annoyed me that I said it just because O did :)
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Kirian on June 08, 2012, 09:43:41 am
You'll have to be more clear I guess because I don't understand what you're saying. The odds that exactly one player finishes 5-0 in a 32 players 5 round tournament is 100.0% (again discounting draws and dropouts) and the variance of individual games/matches is irrelevant. It holds true for a tournament with all 50/50 matchups and it holds true for Stef vs 31 idiots. One player at 5-0 when the tournament is over.

Unless, as you mention, any of the top players are randomly matched up with one another earlier in the tournament--say, in round 2, after each has won once.

Anyway, the likelihood of dropouts is quite high.  Which simply messes things up further, though mainly at the lower end of the tournament.

As for what will and won't make top 8 in 5 rounds of swiss, that's easy enough to calculate (on average, since anything other than 32 results in non-clean results). With 40 players and 5 rounds, 7.75 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. With 48 players, 9 players reach 4-1 or better, on average. etcetc

I get 7.5 players reach 4-1 with 40 in the bracket.

Will draws be possible in this tournament, by the way? That is to say, if we play five games and end up 2-2-1, should we be playing a sixth game?

Hadn't actually thought about that.  Given that it's a tournament format that supports draws, it makes sense to stop at five games no matter what.  So yes, draws will be possible.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 08, 2012, 09:52:37 am
Kirian, if Stef and Obi Wan play in round 2, one of them will advance to 2 wins. Then, since that player has a 100% winrate against everyone else, he'll obviously win the last three rounds and end at 5-0. Every time, exactly one player ends up at 5-0, no exceptions.

And yeah dropouts often have very little effect on what it takes to make the t8. People tend to drop after 2 losses, and especially if they lose 2 matches early, meaning their chance of making it on X-2 is very close to zero anyway because of bad tiebreakers.

About the 40 players, I failed to add 1.25 and 6.25 (the numbers showing up in my spreadsheet) properly in my head. Sorry about that :(
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: BadAssMutha on June 08, 2012, 10:49:56 am
I think we're past 64 people by now, but if someone drops out, I'd like to be in.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Lekkit on June 08, 2012, 03:28:15 pm
I'd like to play, if there is still room, or if someone drops out. :)
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Green Opal on June 08, 2012, 07:40:22 pm
Actually I need to drop out, so someone at least can take that spot if it's still being held at 64.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Dsell on June 08, 2012, 09:16:20 pm
I need to drop out as well. Sorry about this, I really loved the last isodom but I'm taking a vacation soon that will probably fall right in the first rounds and I'm not sure that I'll be able to play very consistently after that.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: zxcvbn2 on June 09, 2012, 04:41:39 pm
I'm sure you're doing the exact same thing, but I got bored and put together this spreadsheet organizing everyone by isotropic rank: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc)

Feel free to use it if you like. :)
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Kirian on June 09, 2012, 05:03:54 pm
I'm sure you're doing the exact same thing, but I got bored and put together this spreadsheet organizing everyone by isotropic rank: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc)

Feel free to use it if you like. :)

You rock, good sir.  Or madam, don't want to assume things any more after That Other Thread. :)

I think after the discussion, I will in fact divide things into three brackets, with 23 in the top bracket (which makes it 38+), 23 in the middle bracket (26+), and 22 in the U26 bracket.  (I'm inserting myself into the middle bracket to fill things out a little bit.)

This means the top bracket will be highly, highly competitive, and the lower bracket will be, well, pretty random... but I think that's how most bracketed Swiss tournaments work anyway.

Pairings will be posted shortly.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Rabid on June 09, 2012, 05:23:11 pm
I would recommend splitting into groups of even numbers so as to reduce the number of byes?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Stringer Bell on June 09, 2012, 05:48:05 pm
I'm sure you're doing the exact same thing, but I got bored and put together this spreadsheet organizing everyone by isotropic rank: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc)

Feel free to use it if you like. :)

Hey, I'm not last! Also, for those of us who haven't played in a Dominion tournament before, is there going to be a specific time to log on to isotropic to play these matches, or do we just set them up individually with our opponents, with a certain end date for each round in mind?
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Kirian on June 09, 2012, 06:07:31 pm
I'm sure you're doing the exact same thing, but I got bored and put together this spreadsheet organizing everyone by isotropic rank: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc)

Feel free to use it if you like. :)

Hey, I'm not last! Also, for those of us who haven't played in a Dominion tournament before, is there going to be a specific time to log on to isotropic to play these matches, or do we just set them up individually with our opponents, with a certain end date for each round in mind?

Set them up.  Generally people do so in PMs.  End date is 19 June for round 1.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Stringer Bell on June 09, 2012, 06:19:56 pm
I'm sure you're doing the exact same thing, but I got bored and put together this spreadsheet organizing everyone by isotropic rank: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah6dTyQTfYBBdGNtTWxUdnhVb0FnT29EYXZsQkJsZXc)

Feel free to use it if you like. :)

Hey, I'm not last! Also, for those of us who haven't played in a Dominion tournament before, is there going to be a specific time to log on to isotropic to play these matches, or do we just set them up individually with our opponents, with a certain end date for each round in mind?

Set them up.  Generally people do so in PMs.  End date is 19 June for round 1.

Okay great, thanks.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: DIonized on June 09, 2012, 06:31:54 pm
I can't commit to playing every week, but if you need someone to fill in for a match, let me know.
Title: Re: IsoDom 5: Sign-Up Thread (ENDS 09 June)
Post by: Fabian on June 10, 2012, 03:39:45 am
Didn't look at the tiebreaker rules until now, but it seems kinda silly to remove the best and worst opponents' scores to calculate tie-breakers in a 5 round tournament, no? Those three opponents that do count is not very much to go on. Also I'm not sure what cumulative score means here?