(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/transmute.jpg) | #10 Transmute (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 9.98 / Median: 10 / Mode: 10 / Standard Deviation: 0.2 Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (29x) Which guy destroyed out unity? Only one player didn't rank Transmute last. That's the most obvious and consentient rank of all lists. Why is that card so bad? You need trashers early in the game. For Transmute you need to open Potion. Then you buy a Transmute in turn 3/4 and have your Transmute somewhere between turn 5 and 8! That is really slow. And what's the benefit? You can trash Estates to get Gold, ok that's really nice, but only for the 3 starting Estates and you have to draw them together. If you trash Copper you get another Transmute! Why does anyone want that? And trash actions to get Duchies could only ne nice in the end game, but still make no big difference. You can also trash a Curse, but you won't get anything for that. For a pure trasher it's too slow, for a trash-for-benefit card it's too weak. When do you really want to buy one? Yes, it's better with dual-type cards like Great Hall (for Duchy and Gold) and you can heavily trash for Gold->Transmute->Duchy and try to three-pile, but I think that's just too slow in the most cases. I think the only reason when you want to buy it, if you want that Potion anyway. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/philosophers-stone.jpg) | #9 Philosopher's Stone (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 8.65 / Median: 9 / Mode: 9 / Standard Deviation: 1.1 Highest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (1x), #7 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (19x), #10 (1x) Two third ranked Philosopher's Stone second last, still no surprise here. It has the second lowest deviation. With Philosopher's Stone on the board and it is the only Potion cost card, it's often ignorable. And it anti-synergizes with all other Potion cards except for Familiar (with University you get a lot of cards, but mostly to build an engine). With a relative cost of ~5.5$ it's in direct comparism to Gold. This means you need 20 cards and no drawing power. With no +Buy you need 10 turns to achieve this. This is often way too late. This card gets better and better the longer the game lasts. But you want high value treasures early in the game. The only reason going for it, may be in Curse-heavy games where it's obvious you get big decks. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/possession.jpg) | #8 Possession (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 6.88 / Median: 7.5 / Mode: 8 / Standard Deviation: 2.3 Highest Rank(s): #1 (2x), #3 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (5x) Possession has the highest deviation of all cards in this list. That shows the range going from first to second last. Possession seems so powerful, but in reality it isn't. It's just frustating. There's much to say about Possession, but I keep it short. First you have to realize, that it's really the most expensive kingdom card in the game so far as it costs ~8.5$. So, if you want it and it is the only Potion cost card on the board, don't open Potion. And the cost also means it's in direct competition with Province. When you've bought a Possession you mostly could have bought a Province instead. Its high cost makes it stronger in Colony games. When does it shine? Especially in 2-player games when your opponent opens with strong cards like Ambassador or Masquerade, you may look after an opportunity to send good cards (of course especially Provinces and Colonies) to you. With King's Court Possession is just madness. With Council Room or especially Governor you can boost the turn you get from your opponent and may even boost your own turn afterwards if he has them too. When your opponent has strong trash-for-benefit cards like Apprentice, you can even trash Provinces or Colonies to get the benefit. And if he has cards with choices like Envoy you either get stronger benefit or can mess his deck up. And if he has duration cards you can also profit from them. It may seem now that there are many situations where Possession is good. That's true, but still often ignorable because of its slowness. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/university.jpg) | #7 University (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 6.43 / Median: 6 / Mode: 6 / Standard Deviation: 1.4 Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (3x) University was voted on #6 12 times, so it has a pretty low deviation. The effect of University is by far not bad. Unlike Workshop you don't need to spend an action to gain a card and you don't get weak $4 cards, you get strong $5 ones. And you are able to play all of them because of the +2 Actions. But, it has the same problem as all Potion cards have. It's very slow. If you go for University and open Potion/X you lose at least one reshuffle to get the critical $5 cards (and you need to get a Potion only to get strong non-Potion cards, what?). You you have to be sure to have enough time to catch up and this really depends if the cards on the board are really so strong that you want as many as you can get. So, it's very board dependant and is really nice with Library, Wharf, City, Torturer and any money producing cantrip. It has only few combination potential with other Potion cards. University/Scrying Pool looks nice but is even slower. Only University/Vineyard is really strong. Beware of 3-piling with University. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/apothecary.jpg) | #6 Apothecary (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 5.27 / Median: 5.5 / Mode: 8 / Standard Deviation: 2.1 Highest Rank(s): #2 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #8 (6x), #9 (1x) Apothecary has the second highest deviation, as many voted it on #2 and on #8 too. Apothecary seems very weak at first glance because of its profit of Copper. But unlike many other Potion cards it's very strong at the start at getting very strong cards very early in the game. Buy a early Forge and with your next big hand you can get rid of all your Coppers; or get an early King's Court or Goons. Later in the game it's almost never a bad card, because it's at least a cantrip and even if it draws no cards you can set the order of your next cards (basically a Cartographer without the ability to discard). It's also strong if you build your strategy around Copper. Apothecary/Coppersmith can easily net you Provinces. The problem still is, it leaves the junk on top of the deck. With Native Village you can use this as an advantage. With 8 Coppers, a few Apothecaries and at least one Native Village you are able to buy a Province each turn. With no strong 6+ card or no synergizing card on the board, Apothecary often is not worth a Potion. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/golem.jpg) | #5 Golem (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 4.92 / Median: 5 / Mode: 5 / Standard Deviation: 1.9 Highest Rank(s): #2 (2x), #3 (6x) / Lowest Rank(s): #8 (3x), #9 (1x) Golem still has a high deviation and is only 0.4 points above Apothecary. It was voted #5 6 times. Like Throne Room, Golem's strength heavily depends from the action cards on the board, what makes it hard to rate. But it hasn't the drawback of Throne Room or King's Court to have at least one action card in hand. You can use Golem either in action-heavy decks and may be able to play more of them in your turns even with Curses or Victory cards in your deck. It acts also as a pseudo-village. Just beware of Golem+Trasher because you have to play the drawn action card and you don't want to risk trashing a Province. Or you use it to play your only 1-2 action cards in your deck everytime you play Golem. Counting House+X Golems guarantees to draw all Coppers in hand. Golem+Scheme+strong attack is also very nice because you can play your attack every turn. Even with those cards on board Golem is very expensive with a cost of ~6.5$. Don't fall into the trap to open Potion with Golem being the only Potion card on the board. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/vineyard.jpg) | #4 Vineyard (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 4.8 / Median: 4.5 / Mode: 4 / Standard Deviation: 1.5 Highest Rank(s): #3 (7x) / Lowest Rank(s): #7 (3x), #8 (2x) It was a close call, but Vineyard managed to beat Golem by 0.12 points. Relatively high consensus for an alternative victory card. It was voted #4 8 times. Vineyard is another card that heavily depends from the action cards on the board. You definitely want +Buy or at least gainers to get enough action cards to make it worthwhile. +Buy is also better in getting Vineyards, because you don't waant to "waste" $6P for a Vineyard. Beside +Buy and gainers, you definitely need Villages or many catrips to be able to play all of your actions, cheap cantrips like Hamlet or Pawn are very good. Like all alternative VP strategies, you can totally ignore Provinces what gives you more time getting more action cards. Unlika all other Potion cards you can delay buying the Potion until mid-game when you already have a good running engine. It has nearly no practical limit in the max VP you can get from one Vineyard what can make it really strong and often a clearly superior strategy over Provinces. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/alchemist.jpg) | #3 Alchemist (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 3.7 / Median: 3 / Mode: 2 / Standard Deviation: 1.7 Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #7 (2x) Alchemist is the second card that managed to get voted on #1. It was voted #2 8 times. Alchemist is strictly superior to Laboratory and if you have a lot of Alchemists to draw most of your deck, you're almost unstoppable. But how do you get there? First you have to buy Potion and then you have to spend the next turns to buy Alchemists. That's really slow and with no source of +Buy, you aren't able to build up your econmy at the same time. Alchemists are therefore very powerful in Colony games, but often weak in Province games unless you haven't any supporting card. That's the reason Herbalist was added in Alchemy. With Herbalist you're able to put your Potion back and get the needed +Buy. Cards that profit from big handsizes like Bank (if you have the +Buys) are great. Outpost also synergizes perfectly. Beware of opponents playing with Minions or Masquerade. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/scrying-pool.jpg) | #2 Scrying Pool (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 2.9 / Median: 3 / Mode: 2 / Standard Deviation: 1.7 Highest Rank(s): #1 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #6 (1x), #7 (1x), #8 (1x) With 10 players voting Scrying Pool second and a clear lead over Alchemist it has a deserved second place. Attacks that mess up the top of your deck are often weak. Scrying Pool is different because of its drawing power. It may draw your whole deck. Buy you mustn't a lot of treasure cards in your deck. Its power is therefore dependant of trasher on the board and action cards that net you money. Secret Chamber/Vault are especially nice, just discard all action cards and keep one Scrying Pool in hand to get a lot of money and draw them again with your Scrying Pool. Attacks that tend to be swingy because of the top card of your opponent, like Jester or Swindler, are gaining value with Scrying Pools, because you can choose which card to keep on top. If those cards are not in the supply, Scrying Pool is just a Spy (with draws sometimes an additional card) and not worth the Potion. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/familiar.jpg) | #1 Familiar (Alchemy) Weighted Average: 1.4 / Median: 1 / Mode: 1 / Standard Deviation: 1.1 Highest Rank(s): #1 (22x) / Lowest Rank(s): #2 (6x), #4 (1x), #6 (1x) With the second lowest deviation and over two third voting it first, there's no doubt: Familiar is the strongest Potion card. Cursing attacks are the strongest cards in the game. A cantrip curser is just ridiculous strong. If you haven't a plan for defense to get no curses at all or easily deal with them (which is very rare), you can't skip over Familiar. What makes Familiar one of the most hated cards is its cost. |
I am surprised University is ranked so low. It seems a great card whenever there are 2+ power $5 cards and you can use the village effect - this isn't that rare. Am I overrating it?Yeah. Thing is, it's slooooow. Because you have to take time to buy the potion, then time to buy the university, and only then can you start to grab actions. Whereas if you just buy silvers, you're probably getting to those power 5 cards a lot faster. Now, eventually you grab more than them. But in the meantime, they're building up a big advantage. So you really need those lots of actions to be very much more powerful than just a few.
With University as the only potion card, I would buy a potion much more often than with Golem as the only potion card.
I am surprised University is ranked so low. It seems a great card whenever there are 2+ power $5 cards and you can use the village effect - this isn't that rare. Am I overrating it?Yeah. Thing is, it's slooooow. Because you have to take time to buy the potion, then time to buy the university, and only then can you start to grab actions. Whereas if you just buy silvers, you're probably getting to those power 5 cards a lot faster. Now, eventually you grab more than them. But in the meantime, they're building up a big advantage. So you really need those lots of actions to be very much more powerful than just a few.
With University as the only potion card, I would buy a potion much more often than with Golem as the only potion card.
Sure. I very much agree with everything you're saying, except your first sentence. Because univs are pretty weak as villages, and for a LOT of terminals, particularly if you only get a few anyway, you just don't need villages, don't need to chain.I am surprised University is ranked so low. It seems a great card whenever there are 2+ power $5 cards and you can use the village effect - this isn't that rare. Am I overrating it?Yeah. Thing is, it's slooooow. Because you have to take time to buy the potion, then time to buy the university, and only then can you start to grab actions. Whereas if you just buy silvers, you're probably getting to those power 5 cards a lot faster. Now, eventually you grab more than them. But in the meantime, they're building up a big advantage. So you really need those lots of actions to be very much more powerful than just a few.
With University as the only potion card, I would buy a potion much more often than with Golem as the only potion card.
When some of those power $5 cards are terminal, the non-University player would need to be buying villages in addition to Silver. Further, the treasures would tend to make it harder to line up +actions with terminals. Any time action density is a consideration (this, plus Conspirator, Scrying Pool, KC, ...), University seems like the better bet.
Also, whenever action card gain is useful in and of itself. University + Apprentice is a powerhouse in most kingdoms, as is University + Vineyards. University also gives a little more control over the end-game. If you have a few of them, you're more able to pile out when it's advantageous.
I'm pretty sure that I was the combo-breaker that ranked Philosopher's Stone last instead of Transmute.
And I stand by that assessment.
For my money, Alchemist is just barely better than Possession. The rest of the list I agree with, except maybe switching Golem and Vineyards, but hey, they are close.
But seriously, why do people swoon over Alchemist? "Okay, now that those first 9 or 10 turns are out of the way, I am ready for green, and drawing my whole deck! Yes, I drew my whole deck a second time. And... oops, didn't draw Potion, that's over with. And I'm 2 Provinces behind."
I'm pretty sure that I was the combo-breaker that ranked Philosopher's Stone last instead of Transmute.
Also, Vineyards is overranked a bit. It's a viable strategy a good deal less often than Apothecary or University.
It occurs to me that besides Familiar, Golem is another potion-cost card that Philosopher's Stone synergizes with, both being less effective in decks with heavy draw. Anyway, I agree with WW: move Alchemist down to either side of University, and this list looks just about right. The Apothecary/Golem pair is a close-call, so the fact that the ratings themselves were close is the takeaway there, not which one wound up edging out the other.
It's kind of neat how strongly some of the Alchemy cards are tied to each other. More than any other set, there seem to be intentionally fabricated combos you're meant to use: Alchemist/Herbalist, University/Vineyard, and University/Scrying Pool are as perfect for each other as Dominion cards can be.
And I even played a game yesterday where I avoided the Mutes and got crushed by an opponent who went for them (I think it was ehunt in fact), so it's not like this is all esoteric knowledge that only I know.Link (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120502-112915-8ffff577.html)
And I even played a game yesterday where I avoided the Mutes and got crushed by an opponent who went for them (I think it was ehunt in fact), so it's not like this is all esoteric knowledge that only I know.Link (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120502-112915-8ffff577.html)
I assume that's the one? "Crushed" is a strong word, but interesting game nonetheless.
And I even played a game yesterday where I avoided the Mutes and got crushed by an opponent who went for them (I think it was ehunt in fact), so it's not like this is all esoteric knowledge that only I know.
Okay, this is convincing me it's time to get off my rear and write that article on Transmute I've been knocking around in my head for a while.All that says is that YOU are better with it. Not that it's better. I mean, I can throw out my stats with the two cards. Phil Stone: +% is 30.1, I buy almost a full one per game (.95), win rate with is 1.28, without is 1.26. Effect with: 2.70, without: .45.
It's not a good card, and it's almost never a star, but it's viable way more often than people realize. My stats certainly seem to indicate that I do much better with it than with PStones: buy 21% rather than 14%; equal win rate win or lose (1.24/1.24) rather than doing much worse with Stones (1.10/1.20). Transmute is my fourth highest "Effect With" and I very much enjoy surprising my opponents by getting effective use out of it.
And I even played a game yesterday where I avoided the Mutes and got crushed by an opponent who went for them (I think it was ehunt in fact), so it's not like this is all esoteric knowledge that only I know.
And I even played a game yesterday where I avoided the Mutes and got crushed by an opponent who went for them (I think it was ehunt in fact), so it's not like this is all esoteric knowledge that only I know.
This clever gambit has forced me into the position of either having to admit that my win was undeserved or lose my fondest Dominion argument: transmute is the worst card in the game. Well played.
On principle, I choose the latter: chwhite's strategy is better, would certainly have won if I hadn't split 5/2, and should have won anyway except for some very unfortunate tactician luck.
My actual decision-making process went like this: "OK, vineyards, are they viable? Not really, no +buy except tactician, and I guess pseudo +buy from transmute, but that can't be right. Well, whatever, I split 5-2, I open tactician and decide what to do later. Wait, he opens great hall? Oh God, he's going for vineyards and transmutes. OK, I'm wrong, it's a vineyards board, fine, I'll go for vineyards and transmutes." Many turns later: "oh. great hall + Conspirator. Right. I guess I lose."
I have never gotten the hang of Golem. It is clearly a good card, but I can't figure out how to play it.
Where would you rank Familar with the other~ $5 cursers? I would think it is the strongest. The potion price puts it fourth behind IGG witch and Moutebank head on, however.You mean if it cost $5? It would be the strongest, yeah. As it is, it's the weakest in general, of the cards that actually give curses (i.e. I'm excepting amb, Jester, and Swindler here). Only exception to that is MAYBE young witch, because it's so bane-dependent.
Where would you rank Familar with the other~ $5 cursers? I would think it is the strongest. The potion price puts it fourth behind IGG witch and Moutebank head on, however.You mean if it cost $5? It would be the strongest, yeah. As it is, it's the weakest in general, of the cards that actually give curses (i.e. I'm excepting amb, Jester, and Swindler here). Only exception to that is MAYBE young witch, because it's so bane-dependent.
I'm pretty sure that I was the combo-breaker that ranked Philosopher's Stone last instead of Transmute.I'll admit: it was me... and I retract my vote, I think I had quite a few outliers on this list for a couple of reasons:
And I stand by that assessment.
Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is somewhat true for Familiar as well, but it's almost never true for Mountebank, and only rarely for Witch/Hag/IGG. (Hag is of course even worse for your own deck, but makes up for it by giving curses in a much more painful manner.) I do think it's a notch below Familiar, though Familiar is in turn worse than the others.I think Sea Hag is probably skippable more often than you give it credit for. Sea Hag is about the same power level as Young Witch with a bad bane. It hurts them more but hurts you more too (in about equal proportion).
Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is somewhat true for Familiar as well, but it's almost never true for Mountebank, and only rarely for Witch/Hag/IGG. (Hag is of course even worse for your own deck, but makes up for it by giving curses in a much more painful manner.) I do think it's a notch below Familiar, though Familiar is in turn worse than the others.I think Sea Hag is probably skippable more often than you give it credit for. Sea Hag is about the same power level as Young Witch with a bad bane. It hurts them more but hurts you more too (in about equal proportion).
Clearly YW and Sea Hag games are going to play out differently, but my argument is that they are of similar power level (assuming the bane is not worth getting). With Hag, everything moves slow for both player. With Young Witch it moves faster. But while you're building up faster against Young Witch, the Young Witch player is building up too, while giving curses.
As an example, I take the "Peddling at the Market" bot in Geronimoo's sim, replacing the Masquerade with a Steward, so it doesn't hard-counter curses. If you put this modified engine bot against Sea Hag or Young Witch, it wins. But if you open Young Witch/Silver instead of Steward/Quarry, and then go into the same engine, it beats the pure engine. You can't do the same with Sea Hag. So one could argue that in this board (Market, Peddler, Quarry, Smithy, Worker's Village, Steward, $4 curser), you can skip Hag but you can't skip Young Witch.
Obviously there are also examples in the other direction (where you can skip Young Witch but not Sea Hag), but I think on the whole it's probably pretty close. I think there's just a greater psychological fear of Sea Hag that keeps people from trying to skip it.
>Takes Sea Hag bot, using only Sea Hag or Young Witch
>Puts in engine with several other cards as a competitive alternative
>Sea Hag and Young Witch Bots don't have access to any of the other cards.
>Draw conclusion that cursing is ignorable
There's no folly there...
I had a deck with a bunch of Hamlets (because I kept hitting $2P and there was nothing else in that pricepoint) and my Golems kept hitting double Hamlet, which was really not that helpful at ALL)+2 Cards, +2 Actions, plus some gravy. Doesn't sound that bad to me...
Young Witch lets you hit those price points and the ability to scramble out of the curse filled muk butterfly affects the rest of the game.
The point is that such kingdoms exist (kingdoms where you can skip Sea Hag, but wouldn't be able to skip Young Witch if it were there instead). Sea Hag does cost you something, and if it doesn't do enough damage, it's not worth it. I think Sea Hag is probably skippable over 25% of the time. According to councilroom, I skip it nearly 25% of the time and have an increase in win rate (from 1.36 to 1.43) when I do, and I feel like I still don't skip it enough, because a lot of times I go into auto see-strong-card-and-buy it mode.
Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is ... only rarely [true] for ...Hag...
Oh Young Witch is definitely more skippable overall, but largely because of the bane card. My claim was the Sea Hag and Young Witch with unbuyable bane are of similar power level. The number of boards where you buy neither Young Witch nor the bane is probably in the 25% ballpark just like Sea Hag. That other 25% of time that you skip Young Witch, you're probably also buying the bane.
To clarify, the quote i was originally responding to was:Young Witch is not just vulnerable to good banes: I've found that if the board has good trashing and engine potential, it's often better to just get your own economy up and running instead, and know that you can handle the curses as they come in- this is ... only rarely [true] for ...Hag...
I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...
Except it often is...I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...
Arguing like that Moats would be a great defense to Cursers in 2p, which they often aren't...
Right.I don't think unplayable banes exist. As soon as someone buys a Young Witch, the bane will become playable because the Curses you're going to get otherwise will be slightly more unplayable...
Arguing like that Moats would be a great defense to Cursers in 2p,
which they often aren't...Well, maybe they often aren't. But they very often ARE.
seems like I stand corrected.Well, general consensus agrees with you. Because 'oh, moats take care of cursers' IS typically a bad gameplan. Actually probably more because theory doesn't like moat much at all in 2p (it is a BEAST in a lot of multiplayer games).
Eh, I'm pretty sure that I still skip YW on boards with unbuyable banes more often than I skip Hag, though obviously the difference is less stark. I don't think there's a way to separate it out in CR data, so this is more of a gut feeling than anything.
Eh, I'm pretty sure that I still skip YW on boards with unbuyable banes more often than I skip Hag, though obviously the difference is less stark. I don't think there's a way to separate it out in CR data, so this is more of a gut feeling than anything.
So you think more than half of the time that you skip Young Witch, you don't buy the bane? If you buy the bane more than half the time when you skip YW, then you're skipping both YW AND the bane less than 25% of the time.
Intuitively, it seems to me like it should be easier to trash your way out of Sea Hag than Bad-Bane-Young-Witch.
If you're playing Remake or Steward or Chapel and not buying anything, it doesn't matter all that much that the Curse shows up on top of your deck, because it can't really hurt your buying potential on trashing turns since you're not buying anything anyway. So the Sea Hag attack is no much more effective than the Young Witch attack against that type of strategy (which is the only kind of strategy you really consider skipping the cursers anyway).
The bigger difference I think is that against Sea Hag, you have a lot more time to trash your way out, since the Sea Hag player isn't going to be buying Provinces or ending the game any time soon. But Young Witch is actually a moderately useful card in a deck. It's usually worth like $1 and some cycling. It's much easier to hit $5 on a YW turn than a Sea Hag turn, and you never get stuck at $2.
A simulator example of how much slower Sea Hag is that Young Witch can be seen by pitting Double YW and Double Hag against Double Jack. Young Witch beats Jack by a 2/1 ratio taking an average of under 21 turns. Sea Hag loses to Jack by a 2/1 ratio taking an average of over 24 turns! Now Double Jack isn't an engine, but it's the simplest example of trying to deal with curses by trashing, while making a non-terrible deck.
If you're concerned that there's some special Jack-vs-Hag interaction, then you can also try pitting Young Witch and Sea Hag decks against other simple bots. Both beat BM easily, but Young Witch takes 23 turns to end the game while Sea hag takes 27. Versus Chapel, they take 22 and 25 turns, respectively. Versus Steward 22 and 26. Basically against Sea Hag, you have 3 extra turns to work with, and that can make a big difference when trying to build an engine.
I think Jack is a bit of an unfair comparison, because Jack is one of the rare instances where Sea Hag's curse-on-top power is a benefit to the Cursee rather than an additional punishment.I'm not so sure it's a real benefit. If you get it on top while you hold Jack in hand on early turns you cycle through it, and if you get in draw along with Jack, it's just like with any other trasher.
That's not precisely what I meant. There are going to be some games with banes that are bad as banes but I may buy eventually anyway because they fit an important part in my engine- something like Woodcutter or Black Market, for instance. If you only can handle one or two of the Banes, and this is the case for mostly all of the terminals, than it's not going to be that effective as a bane even if you buy it.OK. So you have a much looser definition of "bad bane" than I do. By "bad", I meant that you're not going to buy it. That somewhat explains our discrepancy regarding Young Witch.
Well, sure, if you're lucky enough to have your trashers line up like that. But it's just as likely that your Steward is in hand when your opponent plays Hag, hitting a "buy something" turn instead; and the chance that Hag will discard your key card from the top of deck is large enough to be a significant factor here as well.Compared to Young Witch, Sea Hag makes the curses come sooner (because of the top-decking), but slower (because of the lack of cycling). Against money decks, this is clearly a stronger attack, since hitting early is much more painful. Against trashing decks it's probably only slightly stronger. Half the time it gets trashed immediately on a turn you wouldn't buy something anyway, and the rest of the time, since the deck is thin, it doesn't show up that much sooner anyway. If it shows up on your "buy something" turn, it's not the end of the world, since you have 3 "free" turns anyway. It's not like they were able to buy something better on their Hag turn. The Hags are working like Curses to the Hag player. If you see the Curses about the same number of times as they see the Hags, you're in great shape.
The fact that Young Witch's cycling is terminal makes it much less useful in my eyes: in many of the sorts of decks where I'd be on the fence about YW, it can be actively harmful. And sure, Sea Hag gives you more turns to work with, but since it puts the curses in what is normally the single most obnoxious place, you'll need those extra turns. Obviously any trasher that can deal with the top of the deck isis an exception: Lookout, Jack, and Masq. Though I'd expect Masq to dominate both YW and Hag to the point where the distinction is academic.The point is not just that you may want to incorporate Young Witch into your engine (though you will far more often than with Sea Hag), but that if you're going to ignore the Young Witch, you have to build your engine fast, since Young Witch BM plays out much faster than Sea Hag BM.
The point is not just that you may want to incorporate Young Witch into your engine (though you will far more often than with Sea Hag), but that if you're going to ignore the Young Witch, you have to build your engine fast, since Young Witch BM plays out much faster than Sea Hag BM.
The point is not just that you may want to incorporate Young Witch into your engine (though you will far more often than with Sea Hag), but that if you're going to ignore the Young Witch, you have to build your engine fast, since Young Witch BM plays out much faster than Sea Hag BM.
I agree with all of this; I'm just saying that most of the time you'll be able to build your engine much faster against YW than against Hag.
I think things have escalated enough for some iso grudge matches.I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting. I'm just trying to share something I think I've learned recently -- that Sea Hag is not as good as I once thought it was.
This is the biggest thing I learned from Young Witch. By seeing how often it's okay to skip Young Witch, I realized that Sea Hag is also not really as much of a "must-buy" as I had previously thought.
This is the biggest thing I learned from Young Witch. By seeing how often it's okay to skip Young Witch, I realized that Sea Hag is also not really as much of a "must-buy" as I had previously thought.
It's funny how these sorts of things happen: reminds me of how it took witnessing the power of JoaT to realize that Bureaucrat was actually good once in a while.
Kind of hilarious that the potion-cost list thread has not mentioned a potion card in over a page...
And Explorer!
Kind of hilarious that the potion-cost list thread has not mentioned a potion card in over a page...
Explorer is pretty good for big money (on non-colony games) and very good for alt vp strategies. You know, its good when having lots of silver is good.
And Explorer!
Wait what? I can never find a good kingdom board for Explorer, please elabourate! (in another thread if needs be!)
I think things have escalated enough for some iso grudge matches.I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting. I'm just trying to share something I think I've learned recently -- that Sea Hag is not as good as I once thought it was.
An interesting thought experiment: imagine Explorer at $4. It would be JoaT-level bonkers. But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.
Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!
But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.
Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!
I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer. FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.
I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.
But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.
Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!
I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer. FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.
I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.
Well, we definitely agree on which cards go in the bottom 10! It's nice to hear Mandarin get some hate. Such a bad card, and I don't even really understand why it's so bad, but it is. I guess just gaining it is such an awful pain.
I'd pick up a Cache in a higher percentage of games than I'd pick up a contraband. (Trader, Watchtower, Greening, Spicemerchant/Moneylender, Counting House (ok.. not really), apothecary...)
Mine is really not a bad card. If you can find a way to play it frequently - KC-Mine, Scheme-Mine, Mine as part of a draw-your-deck engine - it can really build your economy fast. It's a good card, just a little slow.
Plus, in an Alchemy game you can use Mine to grab a Potion and Potion-cost card on the same turn, eliminating the telegraphing effect of buying a Potion, and turn your Potion into a same-turn Gold when you're done with it.
But at $5 it's pretty clearly in the bottom 5 for its cost. I think that's a pretty good demonstration of the fact the jump between $4 and $5 is so severe.
I don't think it is in the bottom 5 for $5. You have Saboteur, Counting House, Stash, Outpost, Mine. Those are all definitely worse, right? Then you have Harvest, Mandarin, and Cache, which I think are probably still worse than Explorer. Mandarin and Cache are debatable, but still, Explorer would miss the bottom 5.
Just my thoughts--you may certainly disagree. And I know it's splitting hairs a bit, but that's what these threads are for!
I'd say that Outpost and Mine are, while certainly not good cards, both clearly better than Explorer. FWIW, my bottom 5 is Counting House as the clear #1 worst, some combination of Cache, Saboteur, and Explorer as #2 through #4, and Stash and Mandarin fighting it out for the #5 spot.
I guess Mine, Tribute, Harvest, and Outpost would probably round out my bottom ten in roughly that order.
Well, we definitely agree on which cards go in the bottom 10! It's nice to hear Mandarin get some hate. Such a bad card, and I don't even really understand why it's so bad, but it is. I guess just gaining it is such an awful pain.I'd pick up a Cache in a higher percentage of games than I'd pick up a contraband. (Trader, Watchtower, Greening, Spicemerchant/Moneylender, Counting House (ok.. not really), apothecary...)
Oh, I completely forgot about Contraband. I think it's somewhere in the Mine/Tribute/Harvest/Outpost scrum. Royal Seal's down there too- it not bad per se, it's certainly better than Stash, but actually buying it is rarely the best option.
As for Mandarin... it is a royal pain to buy, very hard to use, and just ignoring it is a good rule of thumb that will rarely steer you wrong. The on-gain effect is usually a severe penalty, and the when-play topdecking is better but often also hurts. But there are a few situations where I've made good use of it:
a) It can be an income source in heavy treasureless engines- Scrying Pool and the like, pick it up with virtual money and use it for both the cash and topdeck spare engine parts for next turn.
b) Situationally, as an endgame treasure pusher in clogged BM decks- get it instead of duchy if you're ahead and just need that last Province sooner.
c) Very rarely as an opening with a power $5 that does nothing for your economy. Mandarin/Hunting Party and Mandarin/Mandarin/Mandarin/Apprentice are the only two that come to mind right now, there are probably a couple others.
Basically, all of these situations try to sidestep the problem that Mandarin's when gain effect really sucks most of the time, by either a) avoiding it entirely, b) being the one situation where it's an actual benefit, c) trading tempo for power.