An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for. And for consistency your example would still have the dividing line. A re-write would probably look something like this (with no dividing line):
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)
An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:
1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.
Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.
Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
Not having "this turn" would be super awkward, even if the outcome would be the same. You'd have to do this:
1. Play Urchin.
2. Discard Urchin like normal in clean-up.
3. On a later turn, play an attack.
4. Urchin triggers. Follow the instruction "trash this to gain a Mercenary".
4a. Fail to trash Urchin due to the stop-moving rule.
Every time throughout the entire game that you play an attack card, repeat steps 4 and 4a.
4a would be "fail to trash Urchin because it's not in play"; the stop-moving rule is never invoked. (Recall my wording is "you may trash this from play".)
Just like how it's already the case that every time throughout the game that you play an Attack card, every other player's Diplomat triggers, the follow the instruction "you may reveal this from your hand", and then fail to reveal it when it's not in their hand.
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.
Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".
This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.
This seems different to me, because the text on Urchin is something you do when you play the card (the thing you do is to set up a future trigger). Reactions in general already have special text that applies at special times, they aren't when-play abilities.
As I understood it, AJD's suggestion was with a dividing line, so not a when-play ability.
I don’t think it would make much difference, like my last sentence indicated.Does it even need "this turn"? "When you play another Attack card, you may trash this from play" would seem to have it covered.Yes, it does. “This turn” tells you how long the ongoing trigger is in effect for.
In what circumstance would the presence of absence of "this turn" make a difference, though? (I agree that the version without "this turn" would probably want a dividing line, but I'm not asking about whether the dividing line would make a difference just the "this turn".)
But my response was given under the premise that “this turn” is replacing “while this is in play” effects in general, and you in fact removed “with this in play” (an equivalent expression) in your example. The “this turn” makes that removal valid. (Otherwise the trigger could just be ongoing forever, making the card a bastardized Duration or something.)
AJD's suggestion works fine. It's equivalent to Reactions like "when x, you may reveal this from your hand" etc. Neither "this turn" or "while you have this in play" is needed, because the trigger is always active. (The only problem is that it doesn't specify that "from play" only refers to your play area, which was also the case with old Lighthouse etc., but nowadays Donald has changed it to "when you have this in play".)
It resembles the Livery stuff that's gone back and forth.An old question that I suddenly realized could be relevant in a corner-case. Is Urchin equivalent to "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack"?I'm going with, no, because you didn't play another Attack card with the Urchin in play.
If you play an Attack, and gain a copy via Kiln "first", and play Urchin then (via Sheepdog>Mouse>Vassal), does Urchin trigger?
Obv. Urchin should be "this turn"; it's not something getting emergency errata errata though.
I'm prettty sure that according to the ruling about Goons entering play in the when-buy window when you have bought a card (and other rulings like that), Urchin should trigger. That is, if Urchin is indeed "while you have this in play", which it sounds like you're saying. When you play Urchin, you're still in the "before resolving" window of the played Attack card, which is when Urchin triggers.
The wording on Urchin makes my ruling seem clear. Really the problem is that you don't want to word Urchin that way.
Ok, I guess I see what you're saying. "With this is play" is part of the trigger. Which means Urchin is not "while this is in play, when...".
EDIT: It's not a very satisfying interpretation though, because it means that the trigger is "when you have this in play and play another Attack card", which is supposed to be meaningfully different from a card saying "while you have this in play, when you play another Attack card". In other words, having "when you have this is play" be part of a trigger is pretty messy.
Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)
Interesting. Does any card exist that sets up a trigger on play that doesn’t specify when or how long that trigger is active?
Back to your original question, are you interpreting the “first” on Kiln to mean you haven’t actually started to play the card (Attack) yet? Clearly you have started to play it, but the official FAQ regarding Moat’s reaction does lend itself to your question. I think Moat’s reaction triggers, but then takes a back seat to what Kiln says (because of the “first”) before the Moat holder can act on that trigger. Meanwhile your Urchin shows up after the Attack was initially played. (Per another ruling, Kiln’s trigger has the same timing as the Adventures tokens.)Donald has confirmed that all of those (Urchin, Kiln, Reactions, Adventures tokens) trigger before you start resolving the played card.